Hi,
I have a few questions about what may have been old Sea Beach connections not used:
(1) Heading from 8th Ave. to 59th St., where the middle tracks merge with the two outer tracks that connect to the 4th Ave. line, a two-track wide ramp rises in the direction of 4th Ave. Did this connect to some el line in years past or go to some other location and was it in revenue service?
(2) Also in that area, on the Manhattan bound local track, I recollect seeing, in the concrete wall, what looked lie a closed up one-track tunnel entrance. I don't recollect that it still had a track connection to the Manhattan-bound Sea Beach track. Do I remember this correctly? If so, where did the track lead to and was it in some actual use? How did trains get back heading in the Coney Island direction?
Mike Rothenberg
The ramp tunnel in the direction of 4th Avenue enabled Sea Beach trains to reach a station next to the 65th Street terminal station of the 3rd Avenue L, and the shore.
The wall pocket was a freight siding. I've got the name of the company somewhere, but not handy. I think Larry,Redbird,R33 may have that info.
I think the freight siding lasted into the '50s. I don't know when the tunnel to the shore was sealed.
One thing I haven't seen is a map of the pre-subway BMT elevated lines (and, I guess, surface lines that were used for trains and not streetcars). Like Manhattan, and unlike the Bronx and Queens, Brooklyn did have extensive development organized around the el. The oldest BMT map I've seen shows the 4th Avenue Subway.
I had heard that the Sea Beach orignially went to the ferry terminal at 65th St. Did it ever get up on the 5th Avenue El? Did the 5th Avenue El also accomodate the West End and Culver Lines?
Interestingly, Brooklyn's 5th Avenue includes three huge "main streets," each with as much commercial floor area as a regional shopping mall -- in Park Slope, Sunset Park, and Bay Ridge. Parts of 3rd Avenue in Bay Ridge are also commercial. Meanwhile, 4th Avenue is primarily residential or mixed industrial/automotive. Only after I learned Brooklyn's transit history could understand why this was so.
< One thing I haven't seen is a map of the pre-subway BMT elevated lines (and, I guess, surface lines that were used for trains and not streetcars). Like Manhattan, and unlike the Bronx and Queens, Brooklyn did have extensive development organized around the el. The oldest BMT map I've seen shows the 4th Avenue Subway. >
Excellent and fun to look at is the ERA's Tracks of New York Number 2, which shows the BRT L system (including surface tracks)at 1910. Lots of detailed track drawings and pictures. AFAIK out of print for a long time, but I have seen it on eBay. Defnitely worth scraping the budget for.
< I had heard that the Sea Beach orignially went to the ferry terminal at 65th St. Did it ever get up on the 5th Avenue El? Did the 5th Avenue El also accomodate the West End and Culver Lines? >
Services changed over time. The Sea Beach and Culver each had ferry terminals--I believe the West End had access to the Culver's dock at 39th Street at one time. The Sea Beach had a terminal on the water, not the same location as the later 69th Street Ferry.
The West End had a surface terminal at 25th Street and 5th Avenue, originally to meet Brooklyn horsecars. Later the 5th Avenue L ended at 25th Street and you could switch to the West End there.
As to 5th Avenue L service on the surface lines--L service ran on Culver and West End and on the Sea Beach splitting from the West End at Bath Junction (62nd-Junction). When the junction was split, Sea Beach trolleys/buses/subway cars had a station at 3rd and 65th for a walking connection to the L.
Culver's main service was via the 5th Avenue L right up to Unification.
"The Tracks of New York Volume 2" which I mentioned in another reply in currently available on eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=123276433
The current bid is $15.50. The auction has two days to go. It is a reserve auction, meaning that if the secret price the seller wants is not reached, he doesn't have to sell it.
On the wall of the dispatchers office at 95/4 is an excellent map of the BMT at it's hight. All the tracks along with SBK are there. It should answer all your questions. The thing is huge maybe 4 foot by three. Can't miss it. Just knock and ask the Dispatcher. Most are OK enough to say yes.
Anyone have any idea why an LIRR Double Decker would be sitting on a siding outside the Wilmington, Delaware Amtrak station? I saw it last week as I was coming back from Baltimore on the Metroliner.
[Anyone have any idea why an LIRR Double Decker would be sitting on a siding outside the Wilmington, Delaware Amtrak station?]
MARC has ordered the same type of cars. Could they be using one of the LIRR's for testing or training purposes?
I doubt it. The MARC bilevels have been sitting in Kawasaki's yard since December. I'm sure that MARC has taken delivery of some of the units by now. Are you sure that they has LIRR markings?
Hi,
Some weeks ago, someone posted a message about some Manhattan-bound peak period B trains running on the express track (presumably between Bay Parkway and 36th St.) leaving many passengers stranded. Could this be a test of possible peak direction express service, without telling riders? Has anything like this been done before?
I recollect someone posting information, some months ago, about the agenda of some Transit Agency meeting involving changes to service in the fall and I thought it noted an increae in B train frequency, to about every seven minutes. Maybe with M service also available on the West End during the peak period, the MTA might be thinking of running some B trains express in that part of its route?
Mike Rothenberg
Unlikely. The B is one of those routes where an express would leave too many passengers waiting on the local platforms with enough time to write to their representatives about the lousy service. Maybe the M should be the express. It runs less frequently and wouldn't be missed by as many people.
Just took a more careful look at the progress on the new Siding, Merrilon Ave to Mineola.
The bridge is in place, and track is currently being laid (Actual work happening as I passed, as in a crane laying rail on ties.).
There is track in place from the switch at Merrilon Ave to the bridge, and the sub-ballast seems to be in place all the way east from there to mineola.
I passed the site today and the new tracks now stretch from just east of Merillon Ave. station to just west of the new Herricks overpass. However, there is still a lot of fill than needs to be put in place on the east side of the overpass. It seems that they have been making very good progress over the last couple of weeks.
I know that, eventually, the LIRR intends to third track the Main Line from the Bellerose area to Hicksville. This is apparently the first stage of that project.
The NY Times Electronic Edition has an article today regarding the 7 Line being named an "historic trail." (The article's author refers to the 'red snake' of subways cars...)
There are photos ( within photos 45-90)of B type standards on a fantrip from 1977 at locations referred to as 160th St and 168th St. Where are these locations please?
While I have not seen the photos in a while, I would say that it is on the Jamaica Line (way before those stations were demolished for the creation of the Archer Avenue Connection).
That sounds right, especially if it's an elevated structure.
There are 42 (yes I said 42) new holders in a theme of "Great Subways of the World". They include Washington and MARTA. They are available singly at $1.50 each or a boxed set for $60 at Transit Musuem Stores in Brooklyn (the museum), Grand Central, Times Square Visitor Center
Actually there are going to be 46.
The first 8 are now available at the Museum store in GCT. The next 8 are due in a few days. There will be up to 8 issued each month for the next several months until all 46 are out.
Of course you can always wait until August for the box set @ $60.00 (that is a savings of $9.00 versus buying them separately).
I have a difficult time obtaining MC Holders, but acquire MetroCards rather easily, so anyone who wants to TRADE just let me know with an e-mail off line. How about 9 MC for 2 holders ?
Mr t__:^)
two trains stuck. Oil fire. two alarm fire. WCBS TV has as lead story.
This is serious with the J being out the A is the main backup- this leaves the L as the only backup- Translate: Transitlock. Maybe this will lead to more lines (doubt it).
What makes this ironic is that just last night/this AM stations issued a three page memo on Station Evacuation!
FDNY and Steve-- your comments
Update: 3 alarm fire, level two police mobilization. 25 injured-minor. Evacuees at Utica Ave and Nostrand Ave. A out from Rockaway Blvd to Nostrand. THIS IS MY COMMENT: I believe the J and L must also have problems since this station complex has one fare control--the IND mezzanine. While I have not heard any news. maybe the J and L are not stopping at this station. True- there is the old mezz at the Manhattan end of the J line but the street stairs have been removed. (If the station is smoke filled the booth and fare control may be closed and if closed the J and L have no place to dump their passengers. (The J and L can share passengers with each other).
I listened to my scanner to hear on the IND frequency what the control center had to say and found that service is suspeneded between Euclid and Utica Avs. Announcements were also made on the BMT frequency stating that block tickets are available for those affected by the fire.
Fire was started by burning debris. What could have set that fire off???
-Constantine
Is the BMT running ? I ask since they share the same fare control as the A line. In emergency situations we really mobilize!
Channel 2 says burning oil and debris- I understand debris but OIL DRUMS? on the subway?
Channel 7 says a customer said the train was burning--no info on car numbers
I understand block tickets but is the booth open? with the smoke? or are they issuing at other stations?What are they doing with te J and L people?
I have no clue, but block tickets are being issued at the various stations affected. J and L service is relatively unaffected. If anything, part of the station is closed off.
J and L people are being advised to find an alternate means of transportation.
-Constantine
Im about to check NY1. I called the transit hotline and they said the fire occurred at Rockaway..........
Service is resumed on the A/C lines (local tracks only) No car equipment was involved. The mayor, President reuter and Senior VP Joe Hofmann have left the scene.
I see where the Post is reporting the fire was arson, breaking out in two different locations including an electrical room. Any idea how accessible a room like that would be for non-TA employees or contract workers?
I just got home from this mess and the TA has once again succumbed to the Hall of Shame status they will inevitably brag about tomorrow. I set a new record for continuous time on an interval without an extra call letter or ABD. Four hours and thirty one minutes total from 207 Street to Far Rockaway. We took well over two hours to go from Jay Street to Utica BEFORE we got to the affected area. The whole trip not one block ticket was issued. One passenger had chest pains while another was fighting. Control was silent to the individual crews in need. If it wasn't for the heavy police presence south of Nostrand, we would have had a riot. All the time with an absolute block not one train was turned at Canal Street. Command Center was trying to put 10 pounds of balogney into a five pound sack. Even with the RTO supervision on the scene the A line was a total disaster area. When you have to sit behind a red signal for fourty minutes at a time, something is very wrong, absolute block or not. Shame on the TA.
There's not much that can be done when there's a fire. Unless a life in in imminent danger, FDNY won't go on the tracks or put water on the fire until they can verify that the power is off. Additionally, they won't hit the fire with water unless they know that what they're attacking isn't a chemical that may cause a problem when water is supplied.
From an operations standpoint, I doubt anyone involved knew everything that was going on, but the operations at that point will be governed first by the needs of the emergency crews, and everything else next.
-Hank
In the early 1970's I saw the SOAC cars, low and high density cars, on rubber tires in Downtown Rochester. These were just full scale prototypes and not the real thing. They were parked by Security Trust Bank on Elm Street off from Main Street.
I remember the pictures in the trade magazines and the actual SOAC cars. When they were in Chicago they could only run them on a portion of the Skokie Swift because they were too wide for the "L" platforms and too long for the curves. They had to build special wide platform extensions for them to test run them if I remeber correctrly.
Is there still a set of them out there? I think someone said they have them at one of the museums.
The SOAC cars now reside at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine. To my knowledge, they aren't operational.
I wonder if those 75 foot beauties could be made to run again???
-Constantine
When I was there, I looked (not carefully) at them. They are in pretty good shape, and could probbly run again, I think Todd told me someone was working on it. I don't think it would take too much, though the windshields were in bad shape (due to a lousey design). I think one car is missing it's traction equipment, it also has outboard bering trucks. The meuseum has at least one spare truck on display - I got photos of it wich I'll post in the fall (once I find a scanner on campus )
The SOAC cars are being (slowly) restored by one of our "weekend" volunteers. His progress has been show, however, due to his personal time and money constraints. I'm sure he'd be interested in help - timewise and moneywise. If you want to get in touch with him, drop me an email and I'll forward it to him.
By the way, while they've not run under power at Seashore, I've towed them with our electric engine (#300). Just seeing them move was a thrill!
SOAC 2, the northerly of the two cars as they sit at STM, had its running gear stripped for truck and AC propulsion tests. The program was stopped, so SOAC 2 will never be more than a control trailer. I am not sure whether the braking equipment now on the car functions. I do know that the traction motors in the trucks are wooden replicas.
SOAC 1, on the other hand is complete, and can be made operational, though it will take some effort (the trucks are reversed for starters). If you want to ride an equivalent car - take the A train or the SIRT. The SOACs are really the last two R-44s built - with a different end. The big difference in the ride would be the GS-70 trucks - standard on the (T), Cleveland and Philly but unheard of in NYC.
The SOACs are really the last two R-44s built - with a different end.
I thought the SOACs were the first R-44 types built, and the R-44s (and R-46) were based on the SOAC.
--Mark
The bodies were built by St. Louis as an add on to the R-44 order. They were the last two cars built by St. Louis Car. The body design was pure NYCT, only the ends and interiors were different. The trucks and underbody equipment was where the State of the Art equipment was.
What brakes do the PCC use? The Newark PCCs?
It's not air brakes. There is a dash light "Shaft Brake". What's that?
You might feel like you will get the shaft if those brakes are energized. Only kidding. I believe they are the track brakes which can lift the car in the air while stopping on dime and making 9 cents change for you.
All-electric PCCs (like Newark) use spring-applied, electric-release
drum brakes which are mounted on the driveshafts, rather than
tread brakes which press against the wheels. They are fail-safe
in that in case of a broken wire or dead battery or other electrical
failure, the brakes will be applied by the spring. There is no air
on the car. I think the light was added to indicate that the
drum brakes are applied.
The cars also have dynamic braking and magnetic attraction track
brakes.
One factor in the spring applied brakes is that they only are for making the final stop and holding the car. The dynamic braking goes down to 1 mph, then the actuators release, applying the spring applied brakes. If a car has a bad motor and has to limp in, the dynamics don't function, and the shaft brakes wear out quickly. Boston has air brake PCC cars with tread brakes (converted from shaft brakes) on the Mattapan Line.
1 MPH on the dynamic? That seems very low, even for high-RPM
PCC motors.
Are the Mattapan cars electric or air pilot motors?
Not quite. The remaining PCC's on Mattapan are standard air-electric cars with tread brakes, the way they came from the Pullman plant. The brake shoes are same as used in Baltimore (same air-electrics) and BSM has the pattern, which is supplied when MBTA needs shoes. The "royalty" is several sets of new shoes, which serve very well keeping 7407 (the last standard Pullman built air car in the world) on the road.
The "T" is very happy with the arrangement, it was BSM who found the foundry and arranged for the patterns several years ago.
Ok, so now that I know the mystery of the PCC brakes, a few other
questions come to mind:
*) Treadle? Whazzat?
*) Magnetic attraction track brakes?
*) Sandboxes - how much do they hold, how often did they have to be
filled, and where was sand deployed?
*) Why not remove the old trolley poles? Are they planning on
returning service to 4th street in Philly or Coney Island? :D
A treadle door is one which opens automatically for
exit when a passenger steps into the stepwell, and then closes
behind him or her.
I won't repeat the magnetic track brake discussion because it
was recent. Check the subtalk archives in the last month for
the subject containing the keyword magnetic.
Sandboxes hold a bucket or two worth of sand, and were refilled
at the car houses before the cars went out for service at the
beginnning of each day.
I don't know specifically which poles you are talking about, but
in many cases some trolley poles were left standing after the wire
was taken down because they supported other utilities.
Your other questions were answered in a previous post. As far as 4th St trackage (what hasn't been paved over), the tracks which were once part of Route 50 in 4th and 5th Sts were to be preserved as a "Historic Trolley Loop" (not to be confused with SEPTA's most recent proposal for Chestnut/Arch Sts). The line actually ran the Blackpool "boat" car and a couple of other historic cars during the Bicentennial, when the 50 line had the ex-Kansas City PCC's in the red/white/blue scheme, each named after a state. After 50 was abandoned in the early 80's the track sat dormant in the hopes that the historic portion would return (basically between the Catharine St turnback and a new connection to be built at Spring Garden St or thru new turnouts to allow turnbacks on Girard Ave). This went by the wayside as funding became scarce.
The existing 11th/12th trackage gained new life as a tourist line when the Convention Center was completed in '93, thus the 4th/5th trackage could be expended and it was for the most part. There has been talk about bringing it back, but one block of 5th (Walnut to Chestnut) was completely rebuilt without track, thus it isn't just a remove the paving and re-expose the rail situation. Intersection work done as part of the rebuilding of Market St has also removed the rail in the 4th and 5th intersections. The only long stretches of exposed rail are in the 5th St underpass at the Ben Franklin Bridge and on 4th north of Vine. The rest is history.
Do you remember dashing Dan with his breif case running for a LIRR train? The logo said "The Route of the Dashing Commuter".
COOL LOGO!!!
As far as I can tell it still exists on ONE piece of in-service equipment over by Jamacia's diesel yard (near the Flatbush Line tracks). It is one of the older units that apparently is being kept in mint condition -- perhaps for fan trips??
I recall all the older commuter coaches (the black w/orange ends) used to have that neat logo over near the end doors. That was back in the early days of MTA control, so some of the unique character qualities of the LIRR were still evident.
Doug aka BMTman
"Dashing Dan" also appears on the two protect locomotives at Harold Tower. He once had a woman friend (Dashing Dottie, I think), but I've seen her only on a historical poster.
I THOUGHT I remembered a female commuter, but then I convinced myself that I was losing my mind (of course, that doesn't take much convincing any more)! At one time within the past year or two there was an LIRR historical exhibit in NYP near the main LIRR entrance on 34th(?) street with a picture of Dashing Dan and his companion, IIRC - not sure if it is still there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, she wasn't very popular :/
Periodically, the Dashing Dan logo appears on mainline stuff - I've seen at least one GP-38 with it. The two Harold protect locos have them too. I heard the MTA management went crazy when they found out about that repaint.
Frankly, I like that logo, I'd love to see the LIRR go back to it, but, I doubt they will, given that the MTA feels this burning need to remind us that the LIRR is part of the MTA. You'd have to be living under a rock for the last, oh, about 3 decades not to know that.
I believe the MP-54 at Warehouse Pt still has it, but #4137 doesn't.
Speaking of which, I think I once saw a color shot of LIRR MUs in PRR maroon with the LIRR keystone logo - anyone know if this actually existed?
To answer the question.....I don't think the LIRR "Keystone" logo was ever put on the tuscan red cars. At least I have never seen photos of such a situation. The only place I recall seeing pictures of it on the train equipment was on the "Sunrise Special" logo on a locomotive tender and it was basically the outline of the keystone done in gold.
As for the GP38-2 with the Dashing Dan logos -- I have a cab-ride video from Railroad Video Enterprises and in the audio you can hear the engineer cracking jokes about how he put the DD logos on a GP38-2 just to fool the local railfans!!!
Others have mentioned the "Dashing Dottie" logo -- it WAS on some train equipment, notably the handful of cars that had the pink "window shade" advertising below the windows for "Ladies Days on the LIRR". This was on some MP54 cars and at least one of the 2600-series MP72T cars as well.
There was a THIRD variant of the "Dashing Dan" as well -- actually, it was the second variant, with "Dottie" being the third. This other variant appeared on all the heavyweight parlor cars, and showed "Dashing Dan" in a loincloth with a handful of arrows and a bow; the script in this logo was "Route of the Weekend Chief".
That one (with the loincloth) I definately hadn't heard of - any pics?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are pictures of it in "Steel Rails to the Sunrise" by Ron Ziel and George Foster.
Thanks. That's one I don't have, but I have a friend nearby who does - guess it's time to borrow it!
Until next time....
Anon_e_mouse
[There was a THIRD variant of the "Dashing Dan" as well -- actually, it was the second variant, with "Dottie" being the third. This other variant appeared on all the heavyweight parlor cars, and showed "Dashing Dan" in a loincloth with a handful of arrows and a bow; the script in this logo was "Route of the Weekend Chief".]
Clearly can't use the bow-and-arrow motif anymore, due to P.C. concerns ... but the LIRR _could_ retain the loincloth, adding a club or spear, and convert D.D. into a barbarian. That would be quite suitable for describing the Penn Station evening struggle for seats on Ronkonkoma trains.
I though it was Dashing Dan and Dora.
For a picture of Dashing Dan, go to http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/dashdan.html
Hello,
I'd like to know if anyone knows which trains, or lines, are now using the LIRR's new DE30AC engines with bi-level equipment?
The Montauk Branch and the Oyster Bay Branch are currently using the new bi-level equipment. The DM30AC's are on LIRR property, but are being tested. But since the LIRR hasn't received the full order of bi-level cars, through service to Penn Station has not started yet.
The bilevels also are used on the Greenport shuttle. In fact, they've been in use for several months (and are beginning to get a little tattered, as you'd expect from the LIRR!)
Thanks. I've been looking for a chance to board one of these trains; do you think the LIRR would be able to tell me exactly which scheduled trains have the bi-level equipment on those branches, if I asked? Or does anyone else know?
I don't want a situation to occur where I'm hoping to board the bi-level cars, only to realize it's a (dirty) single level car train powered by a (noisy) MP15 or FL9 locomotive.
- Jose
If your train was pulled by a noisy FL9 , then your train would have to be a bilevel. Not the new bilevels but the prototypes.
I believe the prototype set is OOS, and for sale. It's not compatible with the new equipment.
-Hank
The ad I saw was in 'Progressive Railroading' or 'Railway Age'. It specified 8 cars currently in service and 2 cars stripped and in "as is" condition. No price was specified!
If you are going to, say Montauk, chances are if your schedule lists the train as "direct" w/o a transfer at Babylon then you can be pretty certain that will be one of the new double-deckers.
Doug aka BMTman
[I've been looking for a chance to board one of these trains; do you think the LIRR would be able to tell me exactly which scheduled trains have the bi-level equipment on those branches, if I asked? Or does anyone else know?]
There's a train to Long Island City that stops in Jamaica on Track One a little after 8:10 am (it originates in Patchogue at 6:53) that always uses the bi-levels.
Do you think a train such as one of the Friday express trains to Montauk would use a bi-level train?
Since it (the Cannonball) still uses Parlor cars, it uses the old rolling stock
Saw it rumbling past Our Lady of Grace church in West Babylon this evening, still made up of ancient coaches, with a red-striped parlour car bringing up the rear.
ONE (the second one) of the 1955 MP-75s looked like it had a fresh coat of paint, the others (including the parlour car) were abstitively filthy!
Wayne
Are any of the bilevels biult as palor cars
There's one bi-level train to Port Jefferson that leaves Penn Station at 4:44p.m. bracketed by two FL9's.
That happens to be the train comprised of the C-1 Prototype cars. It leaves Jamaica, track #4 at 5:12 PM when it runs.
Hi all,
I don't know if anyone out here knows, but on a miserable and muggy Monday, I observed that Amtrak Train 142, headed up north, stalled on the Bridge going into the Bronx. Some 220 passangers were left stranded on the Bridge. Listening to reports by way of the scanner, I heard that AEM7 #923 wasn't taking any traction power, but the HEP was still functional. At least the folks weren't without power in the coaches. Train 94 was dispatched to rescue the folks from that train. #94 stopped side by side with train 142 and passengers were transferred to the rescue train. E60 607 was dispatched to pull the disabled Train 142 back to Sunnyside.
Question: What caused the motor on the AEM7 to fail?
I certainly wouldn't want to be standed on the Hell Gate Bridge! The Hell Gate Bridge is hell if you have no place to go....
-Constantine
Things turned out less unforseen then originally thought. However, I did get to spend a week in Boston.
I did segments of every line:
Red Line from JFK/UMass near our hotel to Harvard. Nice long, stationless runs, but the cars(especially the Bombardier 01800s were kind of bumpy)
Blue Line from Government Center to Aquarium. The line smelled bad and the stations were dark. Though I like the dual-mode cars, it was my least favorite line.
Orange Line from Dowtown Crossing to North Station and Back Bay. I thought it was the best heavy rail line. The cars were nice looking but they look like the Blue Line stock. Are they both Hawker-Siddley cars?
Green Line from Boston University East to Park Street. My absolute favorite. I started getting a bit historic riding through the country's first subway line(as the family can attest). The Type 7's were great, but on the interior, they look like the Boeing Type 6's.
I also saw the Type 8 cars in the Riverside light rail yard. We took Greyhound from Philly to the P.A. and connected to another bus to Boston going and coming. On the return trip, the bus stopped at Riverside and peeking from behind a Type 7 car was the dark-faced Type 8.
Also, at JFK/UMass, there were two Coke machines with fronts that said " Celebrate America's First Subway". I thought that was nice.
The system is very nice, save for the Blue Line, if not a little dim:)
the part of the blue that is in the city is dark. but when it goes above ground, there is a nice shot along the water near Revere Beach. And the aquarium stop is under construction has been since the big dig started. The best thing about aquarium is the steep escalators.
Well, i hope u enjoyed what the t had to offer
Matt
I read that there is an abandoned station under Government Center on the Blue Line. What purpose did the station serve?
It's not entirely abandoned, just one end of it is. Check out the Boston Blue Line page for a picture. From the currently open part of the Govt Center station you can still see the signs "Scollay Under" on the walls in the closed-off part of the station.
-dave
Why was that end of the station closed?
Unneeded with four car trains. When the line expands to six cars that section will return.
The Coke machines were installed system-wide in 1997 as part of the subway centennial ceremonies. The show a sepia colored 1900s trolley, as well as the centennial logo. These machines sell the 20 oz.plastic bottles rather than Coke cans. When they are filled (which isn't always) it is a nice way to refresh.
There are a few below ground snack-bars sorts of things in the system. One can get basic food and drink at JFK/UMass, Downtown Crossing (Alewife side),Park Street (Green Line level, northbound side), Copley (both sides), Government Center (two levels) and Harvard.
Are there any other Boston stations with such amenities inside the turnstiles??
CTA has placed Pepsi machines, selling 20-oz. bottles, in most (all?) of the stations in the last year or so. Typically, there is more than one machine per station, with at least one inside the turnstiles (though rarely on the platform due to space considerations). This is really handy if you're getting on or off at a station without a concession stand or on nights/Sundays when many of the concession stands are closed.
When I rode the Blue Line downtown yesterday (Monday), every single soda machine I went past was empty! To be fair, its not typical for all the machines in a station to be sold out, and this was probably due to the Independence Day long holiday weekend and the unavailability of workers to fill the machines.
a couple of months ago I was in Boston and and I agree the green lines were the best joy rides!
However, Boston Trolley types as far as I know are type 5, PCC, LRV, Type 7 and now type 8. I don't think there was ever an operating type 6 but perhaps Boston experts could clear this up. I rode the Riverside D green line and I was surprised by the on board fare collection system. This may work for 40 foot buses but when you are running a large LRV loading is rather slow. They use Susan B. Anthony dollars in the change machines at the stations but loading still went slowly with about half the riders fumbling for change. Why don;t they go to fare cards like NYC?
Most people do have monthly passes which get slid through the fare box. The SBA change machines are for those folks who ride infrequently. As the Riverside line runs mostly through well-to-do suburbs in Newton and Brookline,MA there is the occasional housewife, teenager, or non-regular commuter who requires change made on site rather than issue cards. That improvement is still to come.
Glad to have you back.
I saw card scanners attached to the turnstiles at Aquarium station, are those for the monthly passes? However I found a used one-week tourist passport at Lechmere (had a good map inside). But that was for flashing to the operator. The fareboxes on the Green line cars didn't have card scanners like in New York. Can you explain how the passes are used and what the scanners on the turnstiles are for.
the scanners on the turnstiles are for the monthly passes. i figure it would be easier to just switch to cards like in DC. As for the green line boxes, most do have scanners for the passes. It's the same box as the ones on the buses and i know they take the monthly passes. The monthly passes are a good deal because u pay one price and can use it for anything as many times as you want in that month. Subways, boats, commuter rails, anything.
I hope i helped you a little
Matt
The Boston monthly pass readers are much less sophisticated than the Metrocard system. Monthly passes run for the calendar month, and there is no declining balance option. I'm not particularly fond of the way it works.
This occurs more often than you think. Every time I'm on the Riverside line I see at least one or two people get on without change. There is a slot in the side of the farebox into which they shove the dollar(s), but no change is available; if you're in an $0.85 zone, you waste $0.15.
On the other hand, Boston fares are among the lowest in the country, a rare thing in this part of the country.
On the other hand, Boston fares are among the lowest in the country, a rare thing in this part of the country.
This is very true, but now the M.B.T.A. is $800 million in the hole, and is proposing to raise its base fare to $1 by 2001, and to $1.25 by 2006. Yes, the new fares will still be low...but the system, especially the green line, needs a major updating if it wants to survive in the 21st century....the M.B.T.A. is going to need the money;and the federal government can only subsidize so much. -Nick
The fare system also requires another fare every time you change modes - no free transfer from bus to subway or bus to bus (that sells the monthly pass)!
Transit authorities love that - it's free money. The MTA in Baltimore used to get free $ a lot when the fare was less than $1.00. Even though the base is now $1.35 with no transfers and a Day Pass is $3.00, there's still a little free money. Lots of folks who ride only twice a day (and don't have a Weekly/Monthly pass) still stick $3.00 in the farebox and get a Day Pass, even though their total cash charge would be $2.70. result: 30 cents free money, every day.
Today going to work on my next to last day,( Ill be leaving NY on Monday) we stopped at Rockaway. A New Lots bound train pulled into the station. I noticed on the cars that there was yellow stickers. These cars were from Pelham. I remember two cars #'s: 1908 and 1914. I also remember that these cars were originally at Livonia. Welcome back home boys!!!!!!!!!!
Those cars i mis cause they were some of the few in wich one could see the tunnel on the 6 train. Now what's the deal with 6 trains in the yard next to the pelham parkway??
Today the sbway made news.
1. People are pushing for the 2Av subway. They realized that the 4,5,6 lines are canned sardines.........
2. The 7 train got some type of histoic award from the White House. This award was for the recognition of the dierse neighborhoods and immigrant people it takes to work every day. It was labeled as a historic landmark.....
I can see it now... Redbirds declared historic landmark and cant be replaced. Later on Car collapses (from rust), passengers hurt and city sued by feds for detsroying landmark?
(Tongue in cheek post--just kidding!)
Its seems everytime something happens out of the ordianry like a historic declaration, fire derailment, etc. it makes the news why is that so
Because the very definition of news is that which is out of the ordinary! If it's ordinary, it's not "news". That's why the news has to be taken with a grain of salt, so that one doesn't become pessimistic because most or all the news is bad.
Hi John Bredin, Esq. I often don't watch the news because it is the "freak hour" on TV. Killings, murder, guns and other things come up every night. It keeps you attorney's in business defending these bums. Now there is a movie that came out today on the "Son of Sam" David Berkowitz. Bad exploitation.
"It keeps you attorney's in business defending these bums."
And putting them behind bars. Most of my good friends from law school are Assistant State's Attorneys.
"Now there is a movie that came out today on the 'Son of Sam' David Berkowitz. Bad exploitation."
I think so too, but then I've never been a big Spike Lee fan, ever since I had to watch "Do The Right Thing" for a freshman lit course in college. On the other hand, Berkowitz himself is unhappy about the movie, so it can't be all bad. (^: Especially since, as far as I've heard, he isn't making a ha'penny off of it. (^; You know, public figure and all that, so his likeness can be used w/o compensating him. And to be fair to ole Spikey, he says that the movie isn't really **about** the Son of Sam murders as about one neighborhood's (over)reaction to the killings.
If I had a choice, I would designate the R-32s as historic landmarks. Not that the Redbirds would be far behind on my list.
Now who in the white house is such a railfan? :)
--Mark
Especially since Amtrak doesn't rent roomettes by the hour:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Today the subway made news.
1. People are pushing for the 2Av subway. They realized
that the 4,5,6 lines are canned sardines.........
2. The 7 train got some type of histoic award from the
White House. This award was for the recognition of the
diverse neighborhoods and immigrant people it takes to work every day. It was labeled as a historic landmark.....
What is a prime mover? How about a inverter.
A "prime mover" is the diesel engine in a diesel-electric locomotive that turns the generator or alternator to generate electricity (or, in the case of a diesel-hydraulic engine, that runs the hydraulic pumps). An inverter is part of the electrical control system of a diesel-electric locomotive; for a better and more detailed explanation I'll defer to one of our electrically-minded posters.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not all locos have inverters, only AC traction types do. An Inverter basicaly turns DC back to AC, which is much harder than turning AC to DC.
Turning AC to DC is done with a rectifier, which can be either mechanical, or electronic. Most nowadays are electronic. AC traction locos us a diesel engine that turns an AC alternator. This AC is then fed into a rectifer, which converts it to DC. The DC is fed into the controls, and from the controls, is fed into an inverter (aka chopper) and from there is fed to the traction motors. That's basically it. Normal home current is 120vAC at 60Hz, ie, it changes polarity 60 times a second. That's a really simplified explanation.
Basically, AC looks like the two lines below:
+-+-+-+-+-+-
-+-+-+-+-+-+
And DC looks like this:
++++++++++++
------------
-Hank (positively shocked :)
On a former post PCC Brakes Jeff H. mentioned that PCCs have
magnetic attraction track brakes. What are they and how do they work?
These are large electromagnets that dangle directly over the rail between the wheels of each truck. I was hoping to find specific details in my reference collection, but no luck, so I can't tell you exactly how they operate. The essence of it, however, is that the magnets are turned on during the braking process and slow the car through magnetic force. They are only on at certain speeds; I was hoping to be able to tell you what that range was but either I don't have the info or (more likely) I just can't find that info - and I was looking, among other places, in the PCC technical spec published back in the '30s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I added the words "magnetic attraction" to make the term clearer.
It is in general just referred to as a "track brake".
The principle of operation is thus: A large steel bar is suspended
between the wheels of the truck (one on each side) such that
it is directly over the head of the rail. The bar is normally
held a few inches above the rail by springs.
On this bar ("shoe") is wound a big coil of wire.
When current is passed
through the coil, the bar becomes a powerful electromagnet.
The rail, being made of steel, is attracted to the magnetic
field. This causes the track brake shoe to be pulled down
until it contacts the rail head. Once the two pieces of steel
are touching, there is a tremendous amount of attractive force
between them....thousands of pounds.
The shoe sliding along the rail head creates friction which
slows the car down. It's like putting your feet down on
a bicycle. The braking effort is much less affected by moisture,
oil or leaves on the rail than a conventional tread or drum
brake which acts on the wheels. The reason is that in the latter
case, the contact between the rail and wheel must remain one
in static friction. When the braking force exerted by the tread
of the wheel against the rail exceeds the static friction limit,
the wheel slides, and since the coefficient of sliding friction
is always lower than static, this means less effective brakes
(and flat spots!)
In addition, the effective contact area in wheel braking is very
small..only a few square inches where the wheel tread touches the
rail. In contrast, the track brake gives you the width of the rail
times the length of the track brake shoe...several square feet
of contact area.
The downside of track brakes is they are very rough on your track
and your trucks. Any little discontinuity in the track, such as
a rail joint, is pounded on with a lot of force. The shoe has
little ramps on either end to help "steer" it over the bumps,
but they only do so much. In severe cases, the track brakes can
initiate a derailment.
On the PCC, the track brakes are only used for emergency braking.
The operator's brake pedal has a 3" service range travel in which
only the dynamic brakes (and then the air or drum brakes when the
dynamics fade) are active. Further depression of the pedal
activates the tread brakes linearly from minimum to maximum when
the pedal is down to the floor. Unlike, e.g., SMEE cars, in
that emergency position all 3 forms of braking (dynamic, air/drum
and track) are in play. The track brakes are also activated as
an emergency brake when the deadman pedal is released.
Boston's Green Line Boeing LRV trolleys (by the way they're not called 'Type 6s') and Kinki Type-7s have track brakes.
On the Boeings, the track brake is activated by a toggle switch on the console. It is used mainly for roll-back protection; when moving the T-handle from any braking position to any power position, there is a few second lag between brake release and power application. So the operator holds the track brake switch until he/she feels the car take power. There is a high-pitched tone warning issued while the switch is engaged (and a tell-tale light comes on too).
On the Type-7s, this procedure is not necessary, since the car holds about 10lbs of air even after the operator comes off the foot brake. This air is released when the power pedal is depressed, simultaneously with the car taking power. However there is a toggle switch on the console to manually engage the track brake if required. In addition, if the foot brake is depressed to the floor, the track brake engages much like a PCC (and a high-pitched tone plus the tell-tale light are activated).
On each model, depressing the mushroom button (also known as the Big Red Button or Panic Button) on the console throws the car into emergency and deploys the track brake. I've been on cars where this has happened, and the car stops damn fast! People go flying.
I assume the Type-8s operate similarly to the Type-7s, but I haven't been on them enough to know for sure. I do know that the Type-8s are all electric (no air).
The filler/contact bar on the track brake is usually made from a non ferous metal such a bronze, that is softer than the rail. The idea is to wear the brake insert and reduce rail wear. Also if the contact bar was magnetic itself it would make for a very rough stop.
As said above the track brake is for emergencies and for holding the car on a steep grade.
when did the TA start requiring uniforms? Looking at the old pics especially in the 60's many if not all of the motormen came to work in what ever they wanted to wear
I remember in the 1964-1967 years, there was a motorman on the Third Avenue "EL" in the Bronx who wore a three-piece suit!!
I would imagine that conductors have worn uniforms right from the start. At one time, they were in full view of the riding public at all times. It's different nowadays, with door controls being in the cab.
The First time in many years that Motormen began to wear uniforms was in 1987. That was a pinstriped out fit. But it didn't work well, it got dirty too easy. Then they began to wear the same uniform as conductors, except without the jacket or hat.
Last year the motormen got new uniforms similar to conductors again except the shirt is pinstriped.
Motormen about 10 years ago. That is because, although usually unseen by the public, a small minority came to work looking like homeless bums. In fact, one guy had a BIE (brakes in emergency) on the Brighton line, went to the roadbed to check the train, and the cops called for power off because of some derelect on the tracks!
I have talked to a moterman recently on the 5 Train Northbound to 241st in the Bronx and asked him why they don't run an express from 241 to E 180 st peak direction for rush hour. He said that they have a train the call the SUPER that occasionally runs this service, has anyone ever road it? Or seen this. I have ridden this train several times and have yet to see this.. Anyone know the scoop on that?
It would be feasible, the 2 and 5 both travel to E 241st.
Larcen
I do not know of any Scheduled Express service from E 180 to E 241. I have operated on the Super 4 Picks ago. Basicly you are called a No.5 Super if you go Express from E 180 TO 3 Ave and an Express in manhattan and Brooklyn. So if your go Express in the Bronx,Manhattan and Brooklyn you are considered a Super. So a Thru Express from 238 or Dyre to Flatbush,Utica, or New Lots are Super Express. If you are a Thru Express starting out of Bowling Green you are not a super. Also there in NO 5 service at E 241 Street. In the AM Rush Hour all No.5 train go in service at E 238 Street FROM 239 ST. Yard. During PM Rush Hour No.5 Trains make there last stop 238 Street and go right in 239 Street Yard. Unless your No.5 Train is needed for southbound No.2 service. Then the train goes into E 241 Street and the crew helps with sign changes. Also if a train does run Express from E 180 St to E 238 ST it is a reroute or Schedule Adjustment. But a real fun run for train crews are the runs you get out of E 180 St during the PM Rush Hour. Where you put in the train from E 180 Yard and run light to Bowling Green. It funny at the Express stops where people would get off the No.6 Train think you where going to stop. Then when they see you not in service they try to run back on the No.6 Train but the door would be close before they could turn to run back. Then when the train gets to Bowling Green you go in service Northbound going to E 238 Street.
ok I have done that and it is also quite annoying. But Before There was a 5 service to 241 st.Check the old maps
At one time there was a real super Express from E 180 to E 241 but rumer has it that a that TA and Liberty make a deal which killed the service. I do not no how true this is. At least thats what a old time Motor Instructor on the No.5 line told me. He is now retired.
Maybe if there are any Motorman who worked the No.5 Line before 1994 you may know who I am talking about.
Before they re-routed the No. 5 to Dyre Ave. around 1965, all No. 5 trains ran up the White Plains Rd. Branch and all No. 2 trains ran to E. 180 or Dyre. In those days, the No. 5 Thru Express trains used the express track as far north as Gun Hill Rd. The regular No. 5 and No. 2 trains made all stops in The Bronx.
When the change was made to send the No. 2 trains to White Plains Rd and No. 5 trains to Dyre Ave., the only No. 5 service on White Plains Rd branch north of E. 180 was the rush-hour Thru express trains. The Thru express trains at that time started make all stops north of E. 180 to avoid inconveniencing the patrons from the local stops between E. 180 and Gun Hill Rd. who used the Lexington Ave. service. Note that at that time, the No. 5 trains to Dyre Ave. made all stops in the Bronx - running the No. 5 Dyre trains express rush hours didn't start until sometime in the '70s.
-- Ed Sachs
Well looking at the track maps, it is difficult to run a smooth service for RUSH HR passengers up at E 241st with an express. At least at Gun Hill Rd, they could start the 5 running express, I mean you have the 5 from Dyre Ave and the 2 both running local, that can really clogg things up at E 180.
Larcen
Not unless they do a 5 local. @ runs both as well as 5 sometimes. Not now, but before they did
I used to ride the 5 Thru Express in the 1960's. If everything went well you could save 15 minutes over the local since you didn't have to stop at every station in the South Bronx. UNfortunately everything went well only about 50% of the time. IN the morning I would change from the Dyre Avenue local to the Thru Express at 180th St. This was a quick transfer since a thru express would be waiting for the local. Service was fast until 149th Street when the train had to get on to the Lex along with the Woodlawn #4 service. In the PM the service was fast until 180th street. There one could wait 10 to 15 minutes for the Dyre Avenue local. However in the summer it was still more comfortable to wait on the 180th Street el platform than to ride in a hot, crowded un-air conditioned car.
Yes but didn't they run to 241 street?? Check the 89, 95 maps.!:):)
help me with that please.... do they make them quit or change routes???
What do you mean? Does 1994 mean the year or does 1994 mean something else?
Until 1965, the #5 Thru Express ran express between 149th St.-3rd Ave. and Gun Hill Rd./White Plains Rd., making one stop at E. 180th St. Thru Expresses alternated with regular (local-in-the-Bronx) expresses during rush hours, both going to 241st St.
In 1965, the TA decided to swap the northern terminals of the #2 and #5 trains, with the non-Thru Express 5's now going to Dyre Ave. Original plans called for the Thru Expresses to continue running express to Gun Hill, then local to 241st St. But the people living around Pelham Parkway and Allerton Ave. complained loudly that they would now have no single-seat access to Lexington Ave. service, so the plans were revised to have Thru Expresses run local north of 180th St., and that is how they have run ever since.
BTW, the term "Thru Express" seems to date from the days of the Third Ave. El, when some rush-hour expresses would run "thru" to 241st St. instead of terminating at Gun Hill Rd. like most Third Ave. trains. When the Third Ave. El. in Manhattan was torn down in 1955, the "Thru Expresses" moved to Lexington Ave., but the name was retained, as was (until 1965) the service pattern of running express to Gun Hill Rd., then local to 241st St.
5 trains used to go up to 241st streert. Now they do exp. from 180 st to the downtown trun then do express from 125 st.
Yeah there was #5 service to 241 Street but it was a hassle. The #5 would come out of 239 Street Yard, dumb the train at 238 Street (middle track), then the driver would walk all 10 cars to the front, wait for a slot to open then bring the train to into 241 Street only to have it run southbound again. This is in addition to the #2's that do this in the A.M. It was a pain in the ass, now all they do is come out of the yard and pickup at 238 Street.
This is why the R-110A never started out at 241 Street in the A.M. or the P.M when it first started running the single round trip at 4:33 P.M out of 238 Street. (Actually it started at 241 Street for a short period of time in the A.M.)
i've been on it when they do local #5
Way back when, wasn't the rush hour #5 run to 241st street the "thru express?" I remember when I was young, seeing signs on the Lexington Line that said "Lexington Ave Thru Express." I was always under the impression that the 5 ran 241st-Utica/Flatbush during rush hours as the thru express, and from Dyre Ave to Bowling Green/Atlantic Ave, etc. other times.
Wrong and right Jeremy. Before ( 60's) they used to do the reun to utica. But now they don't and the thru express is the message i posted bout the super express. The thru express is all bronx and manhattan]
John
Folks,
Believe it or not I've lived in Philly for 41 years and I'm going to be going to NY City for the first time in my life. I'm going to be taking NJ transit to Penn Station. Is there a subway route that will take me directly to Yankee stadim from Penn Station?
You could take the A to 145 Street and then take the D (during pm rush, take B) to 161 Street-Yankee Stadium. The other option is to walk from Penn Station to 6th Avenue and take the D from there.
No.
Take the "A" or "C" from Penn Station to 59th St./Columbus Circle and transfer there for the "D". There's other ways but that's probably the easiest.
-Dave
And enjoy the non-stop run from Columbus Circle to 125th st. If the
"E" comes first at Penn Station, take that to Seventh Avenue for the
Uptown "D".
I'd stay on the A to 145th St. especially if a train of R-38s comes first. They have an electronic sign directly above the storm door and are faster overall.
From 34th street-Penn Station, take the Uptown #2 to 149th street Grand Concourse, transfer at 149th to the #4. Be sure you follow the signs that says #4 to Woodlawn. If you see the stadium from the 4 train, your going in the right direction.
The easiest way from Penn Station to Yankee Stadium is to: Exit Penn Station at 7th Avenue. Walk east one block. Enter the subway at 6th Avenue and take the D north to 161 Street.
Now that really is easy!!!
A one seat ride on the D from 6th Av 34th ST would be my choice!
On the nycsubway home page there is a past history of fan trips going back into the 1970's. They are fascinating in that the cars look new and the old number markings are in place----a bit of old nostalgia for
subway fanatics. Do those trips still exist and if they do, where and when. Please let me know. I have asked others but I'm still not certain whether they exist or not. They'd be a blast to ride on.
The Transit Museum and the Electric Railroader's Association New York Division coordinate fan trips several times a year. (This year there will probably only be one, the Low-V's in September/October.) They have a train of Bmt D-Types (3 units) which is in need of some work, a train of Low-V's (4 cars), and some R1/9 type cars are hanging around and maybe will see a trip some day.
When I hear of fan trips being run I'll post them on the Upcoming Events calendar.
-dave
Actually, ERA, not the New York Division, sponsored some of the subway fantrips you might be thinking of, but ERA hasn't done one since the R-30 trip in 1993. The Transit Museum has done several trips since, both on its own and with others (March of Dimes comes to mind). New York Division sponsored a very successful trip on Metro-North about a year ago, and we're going to run one on the LIRR on Saturday, September 26 using the soon-to-be-retired diesel equipment. For an application, e-mail era@juno.com; if you're a NYD member or subscriber, you'll get an application with the July mailing, which went out on the evening of June 30.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association
[The Transit Museum and the Electric Railroader's Association New York Division coordinate fan trips several times a year. (This year there will probably only be one, the Low-V's in September/October.) They have a train of Bmt D-Types (3 units) which is in need of some work, a train of Low-V's (4 cars), and some R1/9 type cars are hanging around and maybe will see a trip some day.]
Sorry to keep doing this, but within the car roster (BMT -B- within photos 1-15) there is slide BMT-b/bmtb-bj.jpg which shows a train of standards approaching BWAY-ENY. There is a track in the picture which
runs below and to the left, and one which juts out from the cab of the lead car. Do these lead to the yard and the flyover (not neceassarily in that order)----and what are the abandoned trackways about---was that the one-time link to the Fulton-El?
Amtrak has issued press release about the arrival of the prototype Acela high speed train in Washington DC.
Nice article with lots of meat in it, thanks for the link Todd.
Too bad the trains won't due 165 MPH after the test :-(
Hello,
Channel 7 was reporting that something special was going to occur to the #7 line, however they never aired the report due to the breaking story of the subway fire yesterday. Does anyone know what this special thing is??
- Jose
It's been designated a historical landmark because of it's history and the route it follows, winding through several immigrant neighborhoods.
Does this mean it cannot be torn down? If it does, can they extend such protection to all the remaining el strctures in the city?
This means it's under US Federal protection right?
Don't know, the blurb I caught said the President made some historical sites year 2000 trails. Includes portions of the Mississippi river and the "underground railroad" from the civil war.
The 7 cars suck.. they are the old 6 redbird's. Seoncd the line is old and needs extensive repairs and if it's torn down, many people will suffer from it caus ethey use it like you cannot believe
The redbirds that suck on the 7 are originally the 1964 Worlds Fair cars, and while they MAY have at one time served on the 6 (as several cars currently do) they are the cars that replaced the World's Fair Lo-Vs on the Flushing line.
The line was recently fully rehabed (it took nearly 10 years) and some stations are still undergoing rehab (Woodside and Main St come to mind immediately). And the era of removing transit lines in NYC is long over, thank goodness.
-Hank
Actually, the WF R-36s bumped the R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s to the mainlines. Don't know for sure if the World's Fair Lo-Vs had already been transferred to the mainlines by that time; it's quite possible they had been.
If the Flushing line were to be dismantled, a lot of Mets fans (myself included) would have to find another means of getting to Shea Stadium.
You mean there is such a think as a Mets fan (or a Yankees fan, for that matter)? :-)
Sorry, this Phillies/Braves phan just couldn't resist!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course there is such a thing as a Mets and Yanks "fan" THIS YEAR - they are winning! If things turn around for them, then we'll see what's up :)
Go Phils!
That's almost as bad as Bill Terry's famous 1934 question, "Is Brooklyn still in the league?" Ouch!
As a loyal UConn alum, I can still say, until next spring, with all due respect, "We are the champions!"
It have been given some type of historic award by the White House
see my post on subway making news..........
As one who has taken a keen interest in the changing system of assigning letters and numbers to trains, I came across something of a
puzzle when looking over the Illustrated Subway Roster. There is an
R-11 train numbered 8012 @ Kings Highway dated January 24, 1970. The oddity about it is that it not listed as a fan trip, but neverthless carried the #4 insignia instead of letter"N", which the Sea Beach has carried, I'm told, since 1967. Is there anyone out there who can ex-
plain why this is so? Is it really a fan trip? I find this picture fascinating because the Sea Beach was always my favorite train, and I still remember it from my childhood as the #4 train. In fact, my password to get logged into my computer is 4seabeach. Someone out there give my some info on this picture if you can.
I think the R-11 was retired before 1970, and that indeed what you saw must have been a fantrip. The R-11 was equipped with BMT numbers on it's route indicator.
But that's just an educated guess, I don't know for sure.
BTW, why were only 10 R-11's ordered and not more? They seemed to be very hi-tech for 1948.
The R-11 was an experimental train (the "Million Dollar Train"), one which gave hope that, coming on the heels of the R-10, the City would pick up the ball of the innovative BMT instead of the dull conservativism of the IRT.
Wasn't to be...
The R-11s were prototypes for the 2nd Ave. line. A 400-car order was in the works, but was never placed.
Those cars did keep their BMT number signs after number markings were dropped. It's quite possible they may been briefly assigned to the N line in 1970, in which case they would have sported #4 signs. They appeared on the B line in the fall of 1968, carrying #3 signs.
In January of 1970 2 R-11's in company with R-27/30's and/or R-32's were in use on both the B and the N so the #4 sign would have been used.
Larry,RedbirdR33
RedbirdR33: I have gotten a number of answers to that question. Thanks for your help. You guys are great and I'm elated that there are subway fanatics like me out there. I'm looking forward to riding the rails when I come to New York next month. If anyone out three sees some old warhorse looking out the train's front end window, it will probably be me. Maybe I'll see a few of you guys on one of the trains.
Fred aka Mr Sea Beach
Your recollection included a specific date which helped to verify the info that I had. One of the interesting things about the Sea Beach Line is that it is one of the few lines still in existence that has been operated by steam trains,trolley cars and heavy rapid transit. When do you plan on being in NY?
Larry,RedbirdR33
< one of the few lines still in existence that has been operated by steam trains,trolley cars and heavy rapid transit >
and buses.
No cable cars, AFAIK.
RedbirdR33: I fly in New York on August 6, and will stay in the city until I fly out August 19. I will spend three days in between in Cooperstown. I'm also a baseball nut, and though I live in Calfiornia I am a rabid Mets fan. I like title Mr. Sea Beach, I really do. A few
of you are calling me that now. I take it as a compliment. I have to say, however, that I'm amazed at how some of you have such a large store on info. I'm still a minor leaguer in that field, but I'm learning an awful lot very fast. I look forward to reading some more
blurbs from you and those other whizzes out there.
You realize, of course, that Nolan Ryan, whom the Mets never should have traded, IMHO, is slated to be inducted this year. I still kick myself for giving away his rookie card back in 1973. Oh well, at least I kept my 1968 Tom Seaver card.
Anyway, have you checked out Joe Korman's website yet? He scanned some old BMT roller curtains from which you can download specific signs. There's a Triplex curtain with plain old numerals, an R-11/R-16 number curtain which has a 4/Sea Beach sign, among others, and an original R-27 curtain with N/Broadway-Sea Beach.
How do I download Joe Korman's Website? Let me know Steve. If you think you goofed, let me tell you what happened to me in 1952. I always collected Bowman's Cards. They came out in 1948 and they were the best and most popular. In '52 Topps of Brooklyn came out with cards and one day I went in to the local candy store and tried to get Bowman's but they were out. Sam, the store owner, got me to try Topp's, and I bought three packs of six for $.15. "Damn", I said, not Brooklyn Dodgers, not one, but a bunch of Yankees who I hated. What was worse were Mickey Mantle Cards, one in each package. Do you know what I did? I ripped up three 1952 Topps Mantle cards and threw them in the trash can. I'll bet you don't feel too bad right about now.
The JoeKorNer
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_Mouse: Thanks! Now I have to get some expert to show me how to download it properly and I'm in business.
The way it works, you scroll down through the rollsign until you come to the specific sign you want to save, in your case 4/Sea Beach, then save it as a bitmap to Windows on your hard drive. That's what I've done, anyway. Then you can call it up as your wallpaper.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Back in 1973, none of us had any idea that Nolan Ryan would go on to have the career he did. In his defense, he wasn't happy in New York and wanted out. When the Mets traded him, Gil Hodges remarked that Ryan would be the righthander he'd miss the least.
BTW, Hodges wore #14, as you no doubt remember. 1 and 4, Brighton/Sea Beach; never mind the Broadway-Brooklyn local.
I had some time to kill before going to Yankee game yesterday so in
my ongoing quest to ride the entire NYC subway system I got the
following:
Left Franklin St on 1-9 at 17:15. Took 1 to 14th, changed to 2 to
96th. Got back on 1. It wasn't cabbed-across so I able to watch out
front all the way to 242nd St. Rode back to 168th, up the elevator to
A-C. The elevator is still signed A-B even though they swapped ter-
minals last year! Took A to 207th St. Got R-38 so was able to look
out front. Air conditioning was out so it was a bit hot. We were held
at Dyckman St. for 10 minutes, probably had something to do with
problem at Broadway-East New York.
Rode back to 145th, then transferred to D and rode up to Yankee
Stadium. Arrived at 19:15.
Now I have all the Bronx lines except 2 from 180th to 241st. Bad
planning since I have been to Dyre on the 5...
Aaron's post about riding the entire NYC Subway system got me thinking: Although I have ridden the subways since the mid 1950's, and have been a subway "Fan" for over 40 years, there are still some lines that I have never travelled on: IND Concourse and IRT Jerome north of Yankee Stadium; IRT from Utica to New Lots; the entire IRT Dyre Ave. line and the IRT White Plains Rd. line from Gun Hill Rd. to 241st St. How many of you fellow Subtalkers have ridden the entire system?
(On the other hand, I did ride the Culver Shuttle, The 3rd Ave. line in the Bronx, The Jamaica El from 121st St. to 168th St. and the Myrtle Ave. line from Broadway/Myrtle to Bridge/Jay Sts.)
I have never ridden the #4 past Yankee Stadium, the Dyre Ave line, the R line to 95th Street, the #3 from Utica to New Lots and finally, I never took the A to Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park, (only to Lefferts). I'm so ashamed.
I have ridden every line - the entire length. I have also worked at least one booth on every line except the Rockaway park Shuttle, either working the booth or a lunch relief at the booth.
I have also ridden every center track currently in the system and the J to L connection.
(And I did that BEFORE working for Transit. The booths came after I started working for Transit.)
I also rode the J to L connection in the early 1960's. At that time there was a Broadway/Brooklyn local service that ran from the stub end track at Canal/Nassau to Atlantic Ave. on what is now the L
I once accidentally rode that flyover, about 5 years ago. Some sort of weekend trackwork caused the L train to operate as a shuttle from Canarsie to Eastern Pkwy. I was transfering from an A to get a J, and when i saw a train out the window as i got off the escalator I ran top speed to try to get what i thought was a J train before it left. I just managed to get on before the doors closed. I never once checked the route sign. I'm sitting there, thanking god i didn't have to wait for the next train when I noticed something funny: I was at Atlantic Ave, not Alabama Ave. Needless to say i was pissed and a little embarassed, and I got off to wait for the next shuttle back to E.P.
G, L, Q ( the yellow service), but why did the yellow q go orange with the f train
Because the Broadway tracks were closed in 1988, so the Q was moved over to 6th Ave.
I'm more ashamed. I haven't been on so many parts I can write a whole list:
Manhattan:
8 Avenue Station on the L (I've ridden the line so many times from Canarsie to 6th, but never to 8th, pathetic).
155 on the B&D
A above 191-Overlook Terrace
Bronx:
Have ridden nothing except for the 1/9 from Manhattan to 242.
Queens:
Nothing but the E and Q lines and the J/Z at both Archer stations.
Brooklyn:
3 east/south of Sutter
J/Z east/north of Eastern Parkway
G north of whatever station the connection with the L is.
M east/north of Myrtle
R from 59 to 95.
A/C east/south of Broadway-ENY.
Now that I have bared my proverbial soul to the world and told all that I haven't been to so many parts of the subway. Having given it much thought (if you consider a few seconds much thought), I have decided to start visiting the missing parts. I have a few ideas, and I need to ask questions:
I hate to backtrack, so I'll want some alternate routes, OK:
What is the area in Far Rockaway like between the subway and the LIRR? or, for more fun, is there a bus between LIRR Long Beach and the Mott Avenue station. Does it have MC transfers? Does it take the MC Fun Pass?
Since I have to visit all but one Bronx subway line (the 1/9), I want to know if there are any direct connecting busses, MNR trains or walking that I could use to link the terminals.
That's it.
Walking between the two Far Rockaway terminals in broad daylight should be safe enough.
But to give you an idea of the area, LIRR personnel hate to take jobs out of Far Rockaway that start early. There are no inbound trains for the earliest jobs, so you have to drive and park in the area.
You want to use your oldest, crappiest car, because you're never sure what will still be there at the end of your run.
There is a bus from the LIRR Long Beach station to the Mott Ave. subway station. It's the Long Island Bus N33 line and it runs (generally) half-hourly on weekdays and hourly on weekends. It's a nice ride over the Atlantic Beach Bridge and takes about 35-40 minutes You can use your Metrocard and you'll get a free transfer to the subway -- your unlimited ride Metrocard is also OK on Long Island Bus.
In terms of easy transfers between the Bronx lines, it's a short walk between the D and the 4 most of the way. I've done the walk between the two Fordham Road stops during daylight and didn't have any concerns about my safety.
i did but have not been on the subway since 1970's. i should take a new look one of theses days.
In that case, you haven't been on the J/Z line from 121st St., or the E from Union Tpke., to Jamaica Center! Or the S from 57th/7th to Queensbridge.
Oops, I missed that one. I haven't been on the Queensbridge line either!
Honestly, I think we should organize something. Ride some subways, for the sake of riding subqways. Together, for fun as well as safety purposes. Not always safe to carry around expensive camera equipment in certain areas.
How about a monthly subway line tour?
I have been on each and every line, including those closed: Myrtle, 3rd Avenue, Culver Shuttle. The only stretches of track I have never been on are: the IND express from 7th Avenue to Church Avenue (did Jay St-7 Ave back in 1971), the flyover/connection between the "J" and "L" at Broadway Junction, the express tracks between 180th Street and 3rd Ave-149th St and the Hammels' Wye in the Rockaways. I rode the Pelham Express for the first time earlier this year.
Wayne
For all of you who have never ridden on the Dyre Ave. line: What are you waiting for? It is a beautiful part of history. Get up to The Bronx NOW!
I plan on doing just that this fall as part of my "Ride the Redbirds" theme. I might as well include a ride to 241st St. on the 2 and kill two (not Red) birds with one stone. It so happens that, except for taking 1 or 9 trains to South Ferry, I have never ridden on any IRT line to its terminus. The 42nd St. shuttle doesn't count.
I never did get to take the Culver shuttle, but did go out to 168th St. on the Jamaica line a few times. I also managed to experience an express run on a rerouted F all the way out to Church Ave a few years back.
I have yet to take the IRT to both the Lenox Ave terminal and New Lots terminal. Don't know when I'll get the chance. I've been through all the other stations in the sytem.
I had ridden almost all the lines expect Jamaica El from 121st to 168st and Culver line shuttle because they torn down before 80s and i start riding the subway when i was 13.
I'll make a shameful confession. I've never ridden the IRT in Brooklyn past Atlantic Avenue, the F in Queens, the A to Lefferts, the E/J/Z to Parsons-Archer (always got off at Sutphin), and - how's this for a biggie? - any trains at all in the Bronx except for the 1. Yep, I barely merit the term "railfan" (sob)!
Also, I've never ridden the SIRT south of Great Kills.
Don't feel bad. I never rode the SIRT until this past March. And I paid $15 to do it :) (NY Transit Museum tour).
--Mark
OK you can start by taking a tour of the stations you haven't been to in the "Line-by-line" section of NYC Subway Resources. Lots of nice pictures to look at.
Wayne
WHEW! Makes me feel real good as a non-resident/native,IVE actually been on some of those... my exclusions are:
1. Brooklyn IRT past Atlantic..
2. The R past 59th st-4th ave
3 The 6 past 125 st...
4 The 2 past Burke ave..(used to get off there for the late Burke soda fountain RIP
5. The L between 3rd ave (the late Palladium) and Bway Jct...
6. The A past 185th...
7. The Flushing past Willets Point..(never been to Main St..strange..)
8. The E connector to Archer or the IND Queens past Forest Hills...
Over all..not bad for a non-native.....
There are no lines currently in revenue service that I haven't ridden from one extreme to another - and several sections of trackage that aren't currently in revenue service either. I'd like to ride the remaining formerly-revenue trackage that I haven't yet, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Only the Franklin Shuttle (although I only came to the city last year so any former lines I've never been on). I rode everything else in the past 6 months. I'll ride the shuttle when it opens back up.
Mike
I have never ridden what is now the R south of Bay Ridge Avenue.
Nor have I ever ridden the F east of Sutphin Blvd.
Other than that, at one time or another, I have hit the rest of the system.
A/C North of 190th Street, between Rockaway Blvd and Lefferts, between Broad Channel and Rockaway Park.
Concourse Line between BPB and 205th Street.
#4 north of 125th.
#2/5 (White Plains Road line) north of Pelham Parkway
Lenox Av. between 135th and 148th
M train between Wyckoff and Metropolitan.
L train between Eastern Parkway and Canarsie.
Line between Franklin and Flatbush.
Line between Utica and New Lots.
Other than that, I pretty much have it covered!
I'm proud to say I've been everywhere a train rider can go, includng some parts that no longer exist (Jamaica Ave. el to 168th and the Culver shuttle, once)
The Jamaica El between 121st and 168th, and the 3rd Ave EL in the Bronx, are the only "modern" segments that I regret never getting an opportunity to ride. While I was alive when the Myrtle Ave EL stopped running, I was too young to ride it by myself, and my parents (not being railfans) had no desire to take their 7 year old son to a part of Brooklyn they weren't familiar with.
I did ride the Culver Shuttle and the K train .....
--Mark
I've covered the length of every line in the system. By "line" I don't mean a lettered or numbered route, but rather every section of right-of-way that is in revenue service (not necessarily every individual track). I did this in a 30-hour marathon ride back in 1972. That included the Third Ave. El in Bronx, but not the Marcy Ave. el, which was already gone and which I never rode. It also included the "KK" connection between Essex St. and Broadway-Lafayette and "Hammel's Wye" between the Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway lines (on the late night "round robin" that ran at the time).
The one connection I didn't get to ride then was the northbound half of the South Ferry "inner loop". The Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle operated only on the southbound half, "wrong railing" back to Bowling Green. I finally got to ride the connection from South Ferry to the northbound track at Bowling Green during a reroute earlier this year. Although the train used the "outer loop" at South Ferry itself, it switched to the inner loop track before the two tracks diverged, so as I see it I did ride the missing section of right-of-way.
> That included the Third Ave. El in Bronx, but not the Marcy Ave. el, > which was already gone and which I never rode.
Er, that should read "but not the Myrtle Ave. el, which was already gone and which I never rode." Wrong Eastern-Division "M" Avenue.
And yes, I've been on the E and J extensions to Jamaica Center and the 63rd St. tunnel to Queensbridge (and its connections to both the 6th Ave. IND and the BMT at 7th Ave.) since.
Before I moved from New York in 1967, I had ridden every line that existed at that time except the Rockaway Park branch and the Lenox branch to 145 St. (148 St. didn't open until 1968). Trips back to NY in the lates 60s let me add the Rockaway Park, and Lenox lines (all the way to 148 St.), as well as the Chrystie St. connector and the 6th Ave branch to 57 St.
Some no longer existing trackage I've been on includes the Fulton St. El from Eastern Pkway to where the A train joins the El structure now at the Brooklyn-Queens border, the Myrtle Ave. El to Bridge-Jay, the 3rd Ave. El in the Bronx, and the tracks connecting the Culver (F) platform at Stillwell Ave. to the Brighton line via the lower level at W. 8th St.
On later trips to NY, I've been to Jamaica Center (out via the 'E' and back on the 'J', but I still haven't ridden the 63 St. line to Queens (I don't get to NYC very often any more).
-- Ed Sachs
Since I started railfanning solo at the end of 1956, I've been on every piece of existing line and probably every service and connection at least once.
But I'm curious as to what people missed, i.e., what piece of line or trackage or equipment could you have been on but never rode for one reason or another, and now its gone? Forever.
Whenever I got a good report card in grade school, my mom took me for a trolley ride. By the time this started, we were down to the last three in Brooklyn--Church Avenue, Coney Island Avenue and McDonald Avenue. Plus I also have decent memories of Flatbush Ave.
Between the good report cards and regular riding, I've got good solid memories in the old memory bank of W5 Depot, Bristol Street when there were still tracks going into Canarsie Depot, the 39th Street ferry terminal on a stormy day, riding around Grand Army Plaza on PROW (trolley AND bus) and much more.
But I never wanted to go north on McDonald Avenue from Church, it might have taken too much of my mother's patience to do that AND still do my favorite ride to Coney Island. So now I have no memory of 9th Avenue Depot, the ride next to Greenwood Cemetery or anything else on that line segment.
What regrets do you guys have?
The ferries from Manhattan to Hoboken and Jersey City.
The Jersey Central to Jersey City.
The H&M to Hudson Terminal (I may have ridden it, but I don't remember for sure).
Those portions of the Chicago elevated torn down before 1978.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not having the opportunity to ride on a train from Bridge-Jay St across the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row.
I missed the Myrtle Avenue el between Bridge St. and Broadway, although I had been riding by myself for about a year at that point. I can't remember why I didn't get around to it.
I also missed the Watertown line in Boston, although I was visiting there in 1968. My uncle wasn't into just riding around, so I didn't get to any of the surface lines that year. However, I did ride the Orange Line el through Charlestown.
But then we can look forward too. The Hudson-Bergen LRT gets closer to completion every week.
< But then we can look forward too. The Hudson-Bergen LRT gets closer to completion every week >
Quite so. I hate to sound like an older fogey than I am, but I'm still fascinated by the idea of new light rail lines, of expanding electric rail service and such.
Growing up in the '50s was dismal for a railfan. We used to argue which would be the last trolley line in the U.S. Most of us said one of the Pittsbugh lines--until 1958, I think was the year, Pittsburgh had 51 lines. Second choice was one of the Philadelphia subway-surface lines.
Unthinkable now, but even the SF Cable Cars were being seriously considered for abandonment.
Luckily, San Francisco's cable cars are now an historic landmark.
I never had a chance to ride on the Myrtle Ave. and 3rd Ave. els.
There are still several subway lines I've never been on, mostly in the Bronx, although I'm seriously considering taking a 5 train of Redbirds to Dyre Ave. this fall. The theme of my visit will be "Ride the Redbirds". In fact, my only foray into the Bronx on the IRT was on August 9, 1967 to the Bronx Zoo.
Equipment-wise, I never got to ride on any prewar IRT equipment of any kind, although in all fairness only the World's Fair and some Steinway Lo'Vs were still around by the time we moved to Jersey. And, as most regular Subtalkers know by now, I missed the last revenue runs by the Triplexes by one day. We were in the city on July 21 and 22, 1965 and rode on nothing except BMT Southern Division trains both days, but did not see any Triplex trains. They rode off to the slaughterhouse on July 23, (much too soon, in the opinion of many) the day we left for home. Having heard so many good things about them, how smooth, quiet, durable, and reliable they were, I really regret not having had a chance to ride them.
I also never got to ride on the 4000-series cars in Chicago, but vivdly remember seeing them on the Evanston Express.
Speaking of the Triplexes, I dug out my video of Class of '44 this past weekend, and reviewed the subway sequence. It's hard to tell if all three Triplexes were used. Numbers 6012 and 6095 are plainly visible, with 6095 being the last unit. The funny part is the fact that the train is empty during the run-by for the cameras. I would have to guess the station which the train pulls into is Sheepshead Bay, but I could be wrong.
BMT MS before their 1961 retirement/replacement by the R27/30s. It is a crying shame they didn't save at least ONE of them.
Wayne
My regrets: being out of the city and not having ridden the Culver Shuttle and Myrtle El to Jay Street Brooklyn before they passed into Old New York History. (I was out of the city from June 1966 till April 1994)
I really wish I could have operated R-46's as delivered. With Rockwell trucks and cab signalling and regulated speed. Take 'em out to the Rockaways, do 70 MPH, like they were meant to do!
Also I'd have loved to ride the old BMT El's. Lexington Av or Myrtle, with gate cars.
In Chicago I wish I could have operated the 4000's. But than again I was 13 years old when they retired.
I regret not operating the 4000's. But than again I was 13 years old when they retired.
I was 16 when the last ones were retired. I could always tell when a 4000-series train went by without even seeing it, because it sounded distinctly different from a train of 6000-series cars.
It's safe to say the multis could outrun every other piece of equipment on subway property, even (shudder) the R-10s and slant R-40s. I can only imagine a train of multis on the CPW express dash. Hold on to your seats!
Neglecting to ride the Jsmaica EL when I lived in NYC 66-70.
Obeying my Aunt/Grandfather and thus not riding the Stockyards or Kenwood L lines in Chgo.
Polo grounds shuttle with Hi-V's; 3rd ave. el - I was a couple of weeks from being five years old in May '55 when it came down. I do have other memories from those days as a small child so, if only my Dad had thought to take me on it. Rockaway Ave. to Lefferts on the Fulton St. el - if my Dad had known Brooklyn I would have gotten to ride "C" types, and of course to be eight years old in 1958 and not to have been taken on the the last gate cars on the Myrtle Ave. "el" for the same reason - the regrets...
And of course, if I didn't mind being as old as some of the very senior E.R.A. members, I could have ridden the IND out to the '39 Worlds Fair.
I've covered almost all of the system - a small amount of it before the Chrystie Street transition and virtually all of it after. SO, I remember taking the D to Coney island via Culver Line and the Culver shuttle, etc..
However, there is are two sections of line I haven't been on at all -
* the New Lots Line between Utica & New Lots.
* E/J/Z extensions from original lines to new Jamaica Center Terminal.
Other lines I'd like to have covered but never did -
* the abandoned SIRT lines
* Myrtle Ave El between B'way and Jay (I've been on B'way to Metro)
Center or Express track I'd like to have covered but never did:
* Jerome Ave
* Pelham between E. 177 & Parkchester
* Culver - all express sections
* West End - all express sections south and east of 4th ave
* Broadway line - north of 96th street
* Astoria (31 Street) from Queensborough Plz to Astoria)
You mean between E.177 and Pelham Bay Park
I regret not riding the 3rd Ave El. before it was torn down in 1973. I was only 7 years old when this occured. I lived approximately five blocks from the 3rd Avenue but my mother had no use for it. She would go straight to the Concorse line.
The funny thing about not ever riding on the el is that I have always rode "under" the el. My mother was always going to 149 St-3 Av but she would always take the bus (Bx2 or Bx41). Every once in a while, after shopping at "the Hub," my mother would stop at her friend's house on 3rd Ave and 169th St. But she just would not take the el, instead she would take the bus (Bx29-today known as the Bx15) which ran under the 3rd Ave. El. I also had an aunt who lived in the Baychester section of the Bronx. We would take the Bx41 to E. 233rd St. and transfer the the Bx9 (known as the Bx31 today). The Bx41 ran under the 3rd Ave El from just north of Fordham Rd. all the way to Gun Hill Road. So, eventhough I have never been on any platform of the 3rd Ave. save for Gun Hill Road, I have travelled under the rails of the 3rd Ave. on many an occasion.
I also miss riding on all of the Manhattan Elevated lines, as well as R1-9s when they were running on the "A" and "D" trains.
You must have a long memory if you can remember R-1/9s on the A and D, especially if you were 7 years old in 1973. By the early 70s, those old timers still on the IND were relegated to rush hour service. I remember those cars very well, but the last time I rode them on the A or D was in late 1969-early 1970. There were some R-4s which ran on the D through 1970 and possibly later; they finally wound up on the CC. Most of the R-1s were gone by then.
I'm old enough to remember when the entire IND was R1/9s and R10s, but I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the times I ever saw an R1/9 on the "A". The A was pretty much purely R10s in my memory.
Most of the (not too many) "A" trains that I spotted that were R-1/9 were actually R-6 and R-7 cars, with one train of R-4s. The predominance of R-6 and R-7 would tend to indicate that they came out of Pitkin Yard, where R-6 and R-7 "E"s and "HH"s laid up. They also used the R-6 and R-7 on the Aqueduct Special "S" as well. There were very few of these on the "A" - I have only spotted five consists. All of these were from 1969 thru 1971.
Wayne
That must have been the train of R-4s I kept getting on the A then, because the first car didn't have headlights. I, too, can count on one hand the number of times I rode on a prewar A train, and never did get to go up CPW on any of them. I did get one once from 59th St. southbound, and the way those bull and pinion gears were resonating in the tunnel was sheer delight. I don't remember for sure just how high they were singing by the time we roared past the uptown platform at 42nd St., but I know I didn't want to get off even though we had a bus to catch. My mother said she got on a prewar A train once, which in her words was "almost white". That must have been after they started washing the R-1/s and ended up stripping some of the paint off them. I did ride a few D trains of old timers up CPW.
As great as the R-10s were, I was always delighted whenever a prewar A train would pull in.
Basically, the IND was all R-1/9 and R-10 up until the Chrystie St. connection opened in November of 1967, except for the R-38s on the E and F. After the connection opened, the R-32s took over on the AA and D lines, and were also assigned to the B.
The only portion of the current system that I haven't yet been to is the IND Queens Blvd line between Van Wyck Blvd and the 179th Street terminal.
I'll take care of that later this summer.
--Mark
I've always thought that the Polo Grounds shuttle in the Bronx was very intriguing. I wasn't born when this service stopped running. One day I'd like to get over there and see what traces of it that still may remain.
--Mark
In my 47 years on this good Earth , the only lines that I have not been on is: Manhattan section of the 3rd Avenue El, and the Nassau St Loop (actually on that portion that made the loop a loop. I have been on the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge back when the N was doing that.
I did the Myrtle Avenue El 2 times and the Culver Shuttle 2 times.
Just as an interesting aside. When I worked in the Chase Manhattan buildings @ Metrotech in Brooklyn (from 1992 - 1996) I could swear I could still hear the Myrt rumble past the Myrtle Avenue entrances to the 2 buildings that Chase has there. (I still work for Chase (just hiot 25 years) but in downtown Manhattan.)
This thread seems to have become "Confessions of the Rail Fans"
The pieces I'm missing are:
The 6 above 125 Street
The 3's Lenox Terminal.
The Brooklyn IRT south and east of Grand Army Plaza
The A from Rockaway Blvd. to Lefferts (I did make it around Hammel's Wye once)
The Q between Roosevelt Island and Queensbridge
The L from East New York to Canarsie
The M from Myrtle to Metropolitan
The N from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria
and the R from 59/4 to 95th
My latest additions were the 2 and the 5 north of East 180 Street one Saturday afternoon during the Spring. Both are well worth the trip -- especially from the railfan window of a Redbird.
Chuck
Looks like I'm the only one who has been on every line in the system, although some lines like the 3 past Utica and above 135th and the 1 above 168th street I haven't ridden in at least 12 years.
Ditto for the Rockaway line to Rockaway Pk.
Hey... I've been on all currently operating lines...
Mike
Just to say it, I got that done before I finished my first semester of High School. But then, I didn't have the time to go to school...
-Hank
The last time I rode every line end to end was in 1990...berfore I left NYC for the military life> I do miss riding up and down the lines and hope soon to take my son on on e trip before the end of the summer when I'll be visiting our fine city for a few days.
I hope to make this my last reference to Nathans for awhile. Years ago, my friend (Canadian) tells me to try malted vinegar on my fries at Nathans instead on ketchup (catsup), cause that's what everyone in Canada does. I try it, and it's good! A few years later, my girlfriend at the time has her two cousins visiting from Toronto, and asks me to take them around one night. I'm thinking, boy, we'll go to Nates and they can have vinegar on their fries, perfect hospitality,
they'll feel like they're home.Our last stop was Nathans. So as the subway rumbles, across the street at Stilwell, the four of us are ordering at Nates. When my friend and I tell them about the vinegar and we start chowing down, they look at us like we're crazy and load up their fries with ketchup.
Quite frankly - you are crazy. Vinegar on Fries???!!!!! In NYC those are fighting words. Practically sacreligious!!!
If we weren't friends with Canada I would say "This means War"
But to be fair I will attempt that the next time I go to a Nathan's and if I don't throw up I will get back to you.
Have a good 4th everyone (in the USA that is)
Seems to be an affliction of several of my friends here in New Jersey. But then they look askance at the way I and other North Carolinians eat a hot dog - chili, onions, slaw.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Come to Kings Highway, for the first ever Glatt Kosher Nathans (no cheese fries please). It's at Kings Highway between Coney Island and Ocean Parkway. I haven't tried it yet, I bet prices are way higher than C.I.!!!
Kosher observers can't have dairy with potatoes either? Or are you assuming the person will be eating a hot dog or burger as well?
< Kosher observers can't have dairy with potatoes either? Or are you assuming the person will be eating a hot dog or burger as well? >
A kosher observer would have to know what kind of fat the fries are cooked in. Strictly vegetable oil? I would be surprised. McDonald's used to use tasty beef tallow.
People who aren't vegetarians would be surprised how many "vegetarian" items aren't. Like most gelatin desserts.
A very observant person who keeps Kosher wouldn't eat anything from Nathan's simply because non-Kosher items are served in the same place, and/or because dairy and meat are served together, even if he weren't personally ordering such a combination. Some observant Jews won't eat in a strictly Kosher restaurant on Monday if it was open on Shabbos.
This varies by culture and necessity. When I lived near Augusta, Georgia, I occasionally needed a New York Deli fix. There was a single Kosher restaurant at the fringe of downtown with very good food. They had both dairy and meat deli on the same menu, and served them together without batting an eyelash.
Nathan's probably uses vegetable oil for its fries. McDonald's came under a lot of criticism when it was revealed that they used beef tallow, partly because of the perceived health risks, mostly on "Eeeeeeeeeeeew, that's gross" grounds. I'd guess that other fast food operators have switched to vegetable oil as a way of avoiding something similar.
So yes, we can assume that Nathan's fries are Kosher :-)
No, we can't. For those who are strictly observant the manner in which the potatoes and oil have been stored, prepared, etc. can be significant. I don't keep strictly kosher, but if I did I would be concerned about what else might have been stored in the same place as the potatoes and oil, what else might EVER have been cooked in the same cooker, etc. I do attempt to keep the spirit of kashrut, however, which means (to me) that I won't mix meat and dairy products, nor will I eat pork or non-kosher fish, and also some additional items. I don't concern myself with whether or not the meat has been slaughtered in accordance with ancient tradition (a method considered less painful to the animal than other methods known at the time); in light of today's modern slaughtering methods, that to me is irrelevant. Nor do I worry about whether or not the restaurant was open on Shabbat; that is the restauranteur's decision and he/she must live with it, not me. Besides, what defines "work"? The Orthodox and I would disagree on that, but I respect their opinions and would hope that they would respect mine.
By the way (for those who try to keep the spirit of kashrut) - McDonalds' buns are dairy, so even a plain hamburger there violates the separation of meat and milk. They are the only major chain, as far as I know, that uses dairy (rather than pareve) buns.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Forget King Highway -- you want kosher Nathans (or Sbarros or Burger King) -- come to ISRAEL!
aliyaaahhh NOW THAT'S KOSHER. :~)
Ben-Zion, I'd love to! Our younger daughter, so far, is the only one to visit - last summer for two weeks - and she's ready to go back. I can't quite see us making a one-way trip, though, not with four children and one grandchild (plus another one on the way) here in the States, not to mention my job!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why not? I have 4 kids, all in school, and am moving next week!
Shalom to you!!
Shalom! and best wishes. I admit to being a bit envious of those who have the courage to make that leap, just as our ancestors did when they left the shtetls of Europe, the ghettoes of the Mediterranean, or the Dutch and Portuguese colonies of South America (where mine came from) for New York and the New World. But our children and grandchild (soon to be plural) are here, and they need us too. It would not surprise me if our younger daughter eventually makes aliyah, but I cannot imagine our older daughter (married to a lapsed Catholic) or our older son (now in college, considering a career in the US military, all-but-engaged to the daughter of a Southern Baptist minister) even considering it, and our younger son - who knows?
Again, best wishes, and once you get established over there and get back on the internet, let us know how you are doing!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But, are there subways in Israel?
No, but there are railroads.
There is a subway in Haifa, and another one under construction in Tel-Aviv
Thanks for the info,Jack
That's it! I'm going! (I dunno when, but I'm going :)
A subway in Haifa, one under construction in Tel-Aviv AND a Nathan's, too. It wouldn't be near one of the Haifa terminals or near the Tel-Aviv terminals, would it? :)
When's the next hot dog eating contest?
Gotta go get some international video :)
The Haifa subway, if I remember right, had some pretty steep grades, right? How long is it?
--Mark
--Mark
If anyone knows of a commercial video of the Haifa subway, please post it here!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Haifa subway platforms, as I hear it, are stairs with landings, the cars are designed to, while being on an incline, to align with the landings.
The Haifa Subway is a FUNICULAR SUBWAY think of what would result from a rendevous between a redbird and a Mt. Washington cog loco. the track is laid in a steep grade and the platforms are terraced Go to www.subways.net click on "Country List" then scroll to and click on Israel. I don't know if the cars have water tanks underneath them as a true cable funicular does and if not, wether rack adhesion is employed. But either way this is the most unusual subway ever built
I see that John just answered about Israel subways.
What I need to get a hold of is the Israel commuter system track map. The railroad has freight as well, and they are expanding it all the time.
I'd like to do a Bahn layout of it.
< [...] McDonalds' buns are dairy [...] >
That reminds me of a curve in the whole thing. Nothing seems less Kosher than a Corned Beef Sandwich with Mayonnaise. But it is Kosher, it just isn't done, maybe because mayonnaise seems dairy, but isn't.
Eggs are pareve (neither milk nor meat) and oil is pareve. So Mayonnaise is pareve (just look at a Hellmann's jar) and you can eat it with meat to your heart's content, even if you're Glatt. But I've asked a number of Jewish friends if you can eat mayonnaise with meat and they almost universally think not.
There is nothing like some creamy (from Mayonnaise) horseradish sauce with a big pot of boiled beef flanken.
How true! It wasn't until I got married that I learned it was OK - up until then it was always Kraft Salad Dressing on a sandwich. Now it's mayo with my turkey and tomato (but still brown mustard with my Corned Beast):-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
THAT'S IT I've gotta come down to NYC. Here in Syracuse we have Pickles Kosher Deli (Corned beef piled 1-1/2" deep on fresh rye from the Jewish bakery next door) I don't think the manna that Hashem provided the Israelites in the desert tasted much better. But the great variety of Kosher foods available in NYC would be a wonderful experience. YUMMY :~P
Most definately. With all due respect to New Jersey, where I currently live and work, I still love North Carolina, where I maintain a home and will someday retire. But having easy access to good Kosher food (Ratner's right by the Delancey/Essex station and the WillieB, lots of great delis, and also some here in Jersey) makes being up north more palatable:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Comparing New Jersey to North Carolina, I would think North Carolina would win out in every way. One thing that can be said about New Jersey is that you are geographically much closer to the New York subway.
Politicians -- I'll take Bill Bradley over Jesse Helms any day
You kidding? Jesse Helms has become a very strong supporter of Israel ever since his visit a few years ago!
I know what you mean, Bill Clinton's selling Israel down the river -- CHEAP
You got that right. When we moved to New Jersey in 1967, I used to look forward to Saturday and our next trip to New York so I could ride on the subway (I attended Saturday school in Brooklyn, later Richmond Hill). My folks wondered why I couldn't wait for Saturday to come around. To this day, I say I have a four-track mind - express, of course.
You have to try Ratner's on Delancey Street on the Lower East Side. I ate lunch there some years back with my boss (a lovely Jewish lady), and the folks from my department (we worked over the river in Williamsburgh). A Goy like me got a gustatory treat the likes of which have seldom been equalled.
Wayne
I Know what you mean.
Ah, Pickles! During the ten years I lived in the 'Cuse I spent many a happy lunch hour in DeWitt. Of course, most of those were at (the recently departed *sniff*) Perkins on Erie Boulevard East, but Pickles still holds a warm place in my heart. Oh, wait, that's heartburn. :-)
--Mike
PEPCID is FREEDOM
You take Perkins over Pickles ???
My understanding is that McDs hamburger happy meals are completely non-dairy, this info from a milk/dairy allergy web page, and a recent change. That would, of course mean the buns are also non-dairy.
None of this has anything to do with NYC Subways.
There was a Nathans hot eating contest yesterday. The winner cheated by eating a hot dog before the start of the contest. What is this world coming to? This guy was no "mench".
Nathans hot dogs has been two TV specials on the History Channel and PBS.
Let's salute the hot dog or frankfurter.
That story made the Rocky Mountain News. That guy who jumped the gun weighed 317 pounds! Yikes!!
I wonder if Babe Ruth ever entered that contest. He was known to put away a few dozen hot dogs at a sitting.
I now a guy who ate 1000 frankfurters in 15 minutes. He didn't have any condiments on his franks. After he ate the franks he rode the F train home.
Oh....my......God. That has to be a record of some sort. The real question is: was he able to hold them down? Better yet, how much does he weigh? I'm sitting down.
Wait a minute - that wasn't the same sweltering F train Wayne was on back in 1973, was it?
Thanks for the update. Not that I'm likely to eat at McDonald's anyway, but if they're the only place open and I'm starving it's nice to know I have a choice other than fish!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
None of this has anything to do with NYC Subways.
But it does.
Think back to 1915. What is the first thing most subway passengers saw getting off the Brighton, Culver, West End and Sea Beach Lines (and the Norton's Point Trolley)? Nathan's! The subway had a very deep and positive impact on making Nathan's an institution. You take a hot summer day, the proximity and smell of the beach, intertwine it with someone getting off the train after a commute being even somewhat hungry and you have an urge that's almost irresistable.
And speaking of, I think I'm going to have a few hot dogs right now.
--Mark
In Ocean City, Md., where I visit relatives once a year, "THE" place to go for french fries is Thrashers. They serve them with vinegar only and even have a big sign on the side of the store that says "No Ketchup". Although the fries are pretty good, I always walk down to the local Mc Donalds to get a few packets of ketchup. To me, putting vinegar on French Fries is like putting ketchup on a hot dog - a mortal sin!
I've tried vinegar on fries, and it's not bad at all. Though my favorite topping is spiced mayonnaise, as served at _Pommes Frites_ on Second Avenue in the East Village (the proverbial hole in the wall, but terrific fries).
The only place I would ever put malted vinegar is on battered fish.
As for Nathans, nothing caps off a nice ride on the "Q" (and the "D" to finish up) train better than a pair of nice Nathans' dogs and a large order of gooey, gloppy cheese fries, all washed down with an ice cold Diet Pepsi, which I buy ahead of time across the street.
Wayne
[ cheese fries ]
I guess one is stuck in the habits of one's childhood, but my memory of Nathan's was that you never destroyed the purity of your Nathan's experience. Almost noone ever even put ketchup on the fries, no less (shudder) cheese. If you wanted ketchup on your fries, you put your collar up to hide your face, and went over to where the hamburgers were to get it.
Putting any kind of topping on your fries was further discouraged by the wax paper bags the small fries were served in. Ketchup made a nice mess of the fries, the bag, and you.
Sauerkraut for the franks was not available. Anyone requesting sauerkraut was beaten and dumped on the Upper West Side.
Real men didn't even put ketchup on their clams, but that was a little too macho for me.
Wayne, when you come to London I will take you for real Fish and Chips. I have to tell you that they are not wrapped in newspaper anymore.
What could be better, fish and chips, Ealing Broadway Station (or Clapham Junction) large Wally, can of Coke. Well Nathans at Coney may take the crown.
Simon
Swindon UK
All this food talk is making me hungry!!
But guys, visit the 'subway' outlet on Londons Oxford Street, just three doors away from Tottenham Court Road tube station,not only does
it serve subway "subs" just like in NYC but the whole area both upstairs and downstairs is decorated with NYC Subway maps featuring
views of City Hall loop and general track diagrams lol lol !!
-----BUT, read on!
In NEW YORK I have visited a small "deli" called LONDON UNDERGROUND
that is situated on a street just near the Empire State building, (i think west 32nd or 33rd street??) and the menu includes sandwiches
called Piccadilly Circus, Green Park (salad!) etc etc.
Can any Subtalkers verify the address in NYC, as I can't remember!!
However they served nice Bagels and Muffins :^)
Regards
Rob :^)
update/correction to last post
I seem to remember deli is between Fifth Avenue and Madison Avenue
around the EAST 28 to 32nd streets!,and called London Underground.
Rob :^)
Rob, I am going over in October and will check it out.
We have a "Subway" here in Swindon which I frequent. Some of the wall paper in mis-aligned making for some interesting journeys.
Simon
Swindon UK
You're thinking of the London Underground Gourmet Deli, 18 E. 33rd St. (right around the corner from the Empire State Building) and its phone number is 212-696-2500.
-Dave
i remember when young we always used to get some kind of soup with the little hexagonal crackers. Do they still serve that? I don't think they have it at any of the other outlets.
Let me preface by saying that my day started on the Ronkonkoma Branch around 4:15 AM. So if I sound a bit intollerant, please understand. This story is only slightly shorter than my commute tonight.
There I was, on the platform for track #7 waiting for the 4:17 to Ronkonkoma this afternoon. Trains were uniformly 12-15 minutes late due to the holiday loads. My train stopped just outside jamaica Station and Car Inspectors were checking it from the ground on both sides (not a particularly good sign). Well 30 minutes later, it rolls into 7 track, announcing itself with the odor of burnt wiring. Well, no one got off at Jamaica and I pushed my way on. We were packed so tightly that I became intimately acquainted (almost) with two nice ladies. Well we sat there for 10 mor minutes or so until they announced that our train was being replaced by the train on track #1.
Those who know Jamaica Station can imagine almost 2,500 happy campers running from 7 track to 1. Well since the last 4 cars were not open, loading was slow and we left jamaica about 50 minutes late. By this time, the 4:46 had come and gone an while it is usually about 30 minutes behind us, today it was 20 minutes ahead. Well, when we crossed from 2 track to 1 east of Bethpage, knew the fickled finger of railroad fate was about to tickle us again. At Farmingdale we had the satisfying experience of catching that train & passengers who laughed as they left us in Jamaica Station. Now it was our turn to laugh as they too had broken down (and without the benifit of having a replacement train). The feeling of satisfaction was short-lived when I (we) realized that we were going to share our train with all those displaced persons.
Naturally once they were all aboard, the doors had trouble to which the crew announced "if the doors don't close, we'll be here all night!" Well the finally did and we left, arriving at Wyandanch, Deer Park, Brentwood, Central Islip and Ronkonkoma roughly one hour fifteen minutes late and withe the 5:23 from Jamaica nipping at our wheels. All through-out, the LIRR kept us properly up-dated
NOT
When you say the 5:23 from Jamaica, do you mean the Ronkonkoma-bound train out of Hunterspoint that connects at Jamaica with the Long Beach train that leaves Penn at 5:23? I was on that train, and as we approached Ronkonkoma we stopped for a couple of minutes, with the conductor annoucing that a train ahead of us had to clear the station before we could enter (something that hardly ever happens with that train). Not to rub it in or anything, but my train was no more than 3/4 full when it left Jamaica, and practically deserted after Farmingdale.
No, I actually meant the 5:23 from Jamaica which is actually the 5:01 out of Flatbush. 1st stop is Wyandanch which makes it a very desirable train most nights. Actually, on the 4:17 from Jamaica I never get a seat until Bethpage but tonight because of the train swap and my fleet-footedness - I actually had a seat for the entire ordeal.
Sounds like typical LIRR stupidity. First, why the heck do they stop a loaded train right outside of Jamacia to inspect it? Like it's gonna explode or something if it moves another 1000 feet, after comming all the way from Penn? Second - hey, it comes in smelling like it's burning up - they should have pulled the car , instead of waiting 10 min to decide to. Third - what moron decided to put the replacement on track 1? Put it on 8 where the Oyster Bay trains hang out. Not like a few min to load up a replacement will invade that lines extermley frequent schedule. Last 4 cars closed? Again, what moron made THAT decision? And finally, 2 breakdowns a night on the same line? What's the MDBF on the M-1s anyway? I've heard it's pretty low, but I, didn't think they were THAT bad. How come the LIRR can't keep their stuff going? Oh yeah, I forgot - they're the largest commuter RR in the US :P
Steve - hey, at least you don't live on the Oyster Bay line, with its rusted diesels and train every 2 hrs nonsense!!
Oh yeah - lemme guess, the conductors said they were having either equipment problems, or signal problems? They always say that. I wish they'd actually tell us what's wrong too...
Thats why many people hate Lirr
My feeling is that things were handled poorly from the start. I knew that once they held the train outside the west end of the station for inspection, there was trouble. When I smelled the first car as it passed me, it was clear that the train was going nowhere. My hope was that they'd cut the head pair off and continue with the rear ten cars.
What really is sad is:
1. The way the LIRR supervision stood around with their thumbs up their (ooops)and would not or could not make a decision.
<2>2. We were not adequately informed via train or station PA. The fact that the follower (the 4:24 from Penn Station) came and went and we were never notified is inexcusable.
The LIRR supervision at the scene was paralyzed by indecision. I would hope that the NYCT never looks so inept.
I remember one Sunday afternoon I was on the LIRR MU's going to Jamaica. At Mineola, the train started having mechanical prblems. The train would inch forward, then backward, then stop. This nonsense went on for like 20 minutes and the train crew didn't exactly tell us what was going on. When the train finally got going, after tying up the main line, we still didn't get an explanation. Remind me to tell you about the time I wrote the LIRR a nasty letter demanding an apology for a incident at Ronkonkoma.
As a railfan, you probably know how old those MU's are. But age is not the issue. Fact is, the LIRR can't maintain their equipment properly. MNCR and NJT have better on time records because their equipment is either new or overhauled. The only MU modifications I've seen on the LIRR are new seats and new headlights to comply with FRA regulations. But we're getting new MU's built by Bombardier. Joy to the world. They decide NOW that new MU"s are needed? I could have told them that ten years ago!
I know the LIRR electric fleet is getting old, but lets face it: when you consider one train every hour or half hour off peak, the fact is the equipment doesn't get any where near the mileage the NYCT cars get. They spend more time laid up, on average, than on the road.
I remember one afternoon back in 1987 when me and some of my friends were waiting for the #5 train at Freeman Street to go home. A #2 train pulled in, dumped its load, then started to pull out. Then someone riding between the cars threw a lightbulb at me! All I remember was looking down and seeing all this glass on the ground. The lightbulb hit me in the chest, but I didn't feel anything. After that, whenever a train pulls out of a station, I turn my back to the train. Anything even remotely familiar never happened again.
Threw a lightbulb at you, eh?
Hmmm . . . Not quite sure what to make of that.
You say the train dumped its load, so obviously going out of service?
Well, hopefully the poor bastard got his ass booted.
When I said "the train dumped its load," I meant that a lot of people got off at the station that day.
oh, was that you?
(just kidding!)
You have a sick mind, don't you Mr Chris????
You probably were the one that did it, Mr Chris!! You're the only one to say something dumb like that. Go to the head of the class, you have been awarded the Avis We Try Harder award for trying to be an idiot, and succeeding!!!
That happened to me a couple of years ago @ Atlantic. Waiting for a 3, a 2 pulled out and somebody between cars threw seeds at me .........
Don't laugh!!! At 149 Street a cople of years ago I standing on the platform while a northbound #5 was leaving the station. As I leaned over to see if the #2 was behind it a face appeared from in between the cars and that person smacked the hell out of me and the train must have been doing about 10 - 15 mph at the time. I didn't really react to it because there were so many peaple on the platform, so I just stood there and tried to hold my tears back. AND NOBODY ASKED IF I WAS OK!!
That was the most embarrasing part of my life, but I'm thankful that it was just his hand and not a knife or some other sharp object.
And the scary thing is, it's like they know exactly where you are and when to strike.
Whenever something like this happens to me (okay, so I never had the person-from-in-between-car assault), but something similar and I get violently enraged, I just keep telling myself that one day they will come across the person who will terminate them.
I always hold myself back because,
1) They may be armed and I don't carry weapons.
2) If I seriously injure them, or worse, I could be in serious trouble.
3) I don't want to lower myself to their level.
That's why they close those doors between the trains.!@!!! :)
No it's not.
They lock the doors on the 75 foot cars for safety reasons because there's too much of an overhang on some curves.
The rest of the cars' storm doors are kept unlocked (most of the time -- I was recently on a Q train of R-40's that had locked storm doors).
Mr. Bentancourt, I was just sharing a subway experience, not looking for sympathy ya dumb %#@*!!
Does anyone have photographs of St. Ann's Interlocking and Bergen Avenue Connection to the Third Avenue El? Let me know by E-Mail.
That happened on my train once. It was an early Sunday Morning. Anyway as I was leaving 149 Street The Conductor observed I object throwen from train to Platform as we were leaving. Samething at 143 Street. MY conductor then informed me there was 6 Youths between the 8 and 9 car with glass bottles. So at Cypress my Conductor walked back there to Investigate and I called Control Center. They told we to proceed and signal for Police. So My Conductor almost got hit with a Bottle so she ran back to her position and proceeded to Brook Ave where there was one cop. She only arrested 2 of them so we continued and the rest of them got off at 125 Street.
I don't understand why the MTA has to run diesels underground. I'm sure that either EMD or GE could build a low profile electric locomotive to pull their work trains. When they pass through at night, the whole station reeks of diesel exhaust. Some diesels they are. I have never seen them MU'd to each other. Anyone know what company builds these locomotives or did the MTA acquire them from another agency?
GE built them-check the roster on this site.You need Diesels when the power is off. There are electrics too.
Diesel work trains are amazingly useful if the third rail is off!!! Plus, nobody has built that type of DC powered locomotive in the US since at least before the 1950's!
Why not tri-power engines: diesel, electric, or battery, like the NYC used years ago.
Not quite true. In 1983, the TA purchased 20 new locomotives from General Electric. Ten were designated as R-77 and numbered OL883 to OL992 and had the traditional diesel-electric propulsion packages. The other ten were designated as R-77E. These units, numbered OEL01 to OEL10, had only traction motors and a GE propulsion equipment powered by 3rd rail voltage. Both versions have 14.67:1 gear ratios.
That's a good point. Well, if they must run them underground, at least they don't smoke like a Alco 251 engine.
Think about it folks, if the NYWB was still running today, what kind of equipment do you think would've ran there?
I think in 1972, MTA would've purchased NYWB and bought M-2's for the White Plains line and abandon the Port Chester Line. By now, the line would have been called MTA Westchester Railway.
I envison the M-2's being Single Cars, instead of married pairs and having WH motors and equipment.
Also, the MTA would've kept two old Stillwell cars for work equipment (i.e. line cars or Fan trips ).
I know I have a wild imagination, but what do you think?
If the NYWB had somehow managed to survive as a railroad into the MTA era, I think the MTA would realize why its ridership had consistently been so low (lack of direct service to Manhattan) and do something about it - i.e. implement thru service from the former NYWB lines to Penn Station via the Hell Gate Bridge.
Does anyone know if such service was ever available even on a transfer basis? That is, if someone got on at one of the current Dyre Ave. line stations, or at a station between White Plains and Dyre Ave., was there any point on the line (such as Hunts Point perhaps) where s/he could change for a New Haven line train to Penn Station (rather than a subway)? My impression is that such a transfer was not available, that the Hell Gate route was only for long distance trains which made no stops in the Bronx, but I'm not certain.
Aside to Dave Pirman: when are you going to post the final article listed, but not yet present, in the NYWB section, and the pictures from the next-to-the-last artice?
> Aside to Dave Pirman: when are you going to post the final
> article listed, but not yet present, in the
> NYWB section, and the pictures from the next-to-the-last artice?
When time and priorities permit.
-Dave
Only interstate trains use/ed the Hell Gate route, and there never were any island platform stations, hence, no connection to Penn Station.
Now, possibly, there may be a need for interurban service between New Jersey, Penn Station, Long Island City and points (way) north of the Hell Gate Bridge.
There were New Haven (not NW&B) stations between Hunts Point Avenue and New Rochelle on what is now the Northeast Corridor route. I don't think these offered service over the Hell Gate Bridge, although both the New Haven and NW&B probably used Hunts Point Avenue.
The service terminated at 138th street Port Morris. The building is still standing and can be seen from the Willis Avenue bridge, the long red building. If you look closely you can still see the N.Y.W&B logo.
An educated guess would be that it would not be connected to the IRT, since the Public Authorities law prohibits the TA from operating outside the city limits.
Since operating a coherent service as part of MNRR would be difficult, I also guess it would not be part of MN. Also keeping it physically separate from MNRR would keep the FRA away.
So my guess is it would be a separately administered part of MTA, and would use R44-type equipment, like SIRT.
It would still be a fifth wheel without better midtown access. It would perhaps have created additional impetus for the 2nd Avenue Subway (here we go again) for which it could have trackage rights.
"An educated guess would be that it would not be connected to the IRT, since the Public Authorities law prohibits the TA from operating outside the city limits....It would still be a fifth wheel without better midtown access."
But while the TA could not have operated outside New York City, couldn't the NYW&B operated within NYC on TA lines? That is, they could have formed an agreement whereby the NYW&B was a separate part of MTA (as you state) or even a private enterprise, but its trains switched from private ROW to NYCTA trackage to enter the heart of Manhattan, pursuant to a contract between NYCTA and NYW&B. As long as NYCTA trains didn't pass outside city limits on NYW&B trackage, it would not be violating the law, IMHO.
This would be similar to the practice of the Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee ("North Shore") and the Chicago, Aurora, & Elgin (CA&E) interurbans, which operated on their own ROW up to within a few miles of the city limits but then actually entered Chicago and the Loop over the lines of Chicago Rapid Transit (CRT). Mind you, while North Shore, CA&E, and CRT were all legally separate entities, they were all owned by Sam Insull at the time these arrangements were made, and CRT was not forbidden to operate trains outside Chicago proper. However, the analogy still holds, since these arrangements continued after Insull lost control of his various traction interests and even after CRT became a part of Chicago Transit Authority.
So, what do you think?
< But while the TA could not have operated outside New York City, couldn't the NYW&B operated within NYC on TA lines? >
There was joint operation between BRT and LIRR at various times, but that way predated the Public Authorities Law under which the NYCTA was formed.
As recently as the '60s, it was seriously proposed that the LIRR be allowed to operate through the Nassau Street Loop as a cheap means of improving LIRR Brooklyn service and reducing crush crowding on the IRT lines at Atlantic Avenue. At the time I helped prepare a paper for opponents which argued, inter alia that such operation would violate the Dual Contracts, but that went nowhere.
That such LIRR operation was proposed suggests, however, that it was not thought to violate the Public Authorities Law, so presumably a joint TA-NYW&B operation wouldn't, either.
But a couple of other problems jump in. First, connecting such a long distance operation to the IRT would force the NYW&B to use equipment compatible with IRT dimensions. Second, I can't picture how it would work operationally. The LIRR trains in the Nassau Loop could reasonably be resticted to folks with LIRR tickets (in city or out) because the only NYCTA stops it would have made would have been Broad, Fulton, Chambers, so at most subway riders would have gone two stations.
An NYW&B/IRT operation would be operating on NYCTA trackage for many miles, presumably all the way from E180 to Brooklyn Bridge or South Ferry. Would IRT riders be permitted to use the NYW&B cars? If so, would this violate the Public Authorities Law? If IRT riders were banned, this would cause both operational and political headaches.
Plus NYW&B trains would cut IRT capacity. It would be much more acceptable if the NYW&B trains operated with TA trains on a brand-new subway from day one on say, a Second Avenue Subway.
Just my musings. This is an interesting if purely theoretical discussion.
[As recently as the '60s, it was seriously proposed that the LIRR be allowed to operate through the Nassau Street Loop as a cheap means of improving LIRR Brooklyn service and reducing crush crowding on the IRT lines at Atlantic Avenue.]
Interesting idea ... it certainly makes a lot more since then LIRR take over of IRT tunnel to Manhattan (LIRR trains too wide) or TA take over of LIRR Atlantic Ave line to Jamaica. AND it would give the LIRR some place to goto in Manhattan.
From a quick look at the track plans it would seem that LIRR would need to take over Montague tunnel & force M/N/R from Brooklyn to find other means to enter Manhattan. LIRR would then have exclusive use of Broad & Fulton Street and shared use of Chambers, Canal, Bowery & Delancey/Essex (well maybe they would turn at Bowery). J/M/Z then would arrive over Williamsburg & terminate at Chambers.
The question is: would LIRR be so concerned about free rides to two stations that they would need to partition off the other platforms & force folks to walk around or thru some sort of fare control as PATH does ? The second question is: could the LIRR turn trains as quickly as the TA does, i.e. not per schedule, but per arrivial time AND what would that do to the scheduled meets at Jamaica & elsewhere. There is no place to store the trains unless the TA/LIRR don't share, i.e. LIRR ends at Chambers & TA J/M/Z ends at Canal (or new station at Cannal then J/M/Z uses Manhattan bridge).
Well, just thinking out laud ... anyone else think there some value in this discarded plan ???
Mr t__:^)
The original plan wouldn't have displaced the BMT at all. It would have used the Nassau LOOP, i.e., one way via Manhattan H tracks, the other via Montague Street tunnel, using capacity opened up by the ending of Culver-Nassau service. LIRR and BMT would have run side-by-side.
This was before MTA ownership of the LIRR, and all Brooklyn service was with short cars, so there wouldn't have been any clearance problems either.
There wouldn't have been any problem of keeping LIRR passengers separate from BMT passengers. Any BMT passengers who got on the LIRR train would simply get off before LIRR territory, at which point the tickets would be collected.
It seems to me they weren't thinking too far in the future, because what would they have done when Chrystie Street opened? Maybe they could have kept the Nassau as a loop northbound only.
Maybe they could have run the LIRR over the Willie B and returned the trains to Jamaica via a new connection between the Myrtle Avenue line and the Montaulk line near Glendale Junction.
As for doing it today, I would rather see the abandoned portion of the Atlantic Avenue line reopened and a new tunnel placed under the river from the foot of Atlantic Avenue to lower Manhattan.
Three possible scenarios come to mind.
If converted at the time of abandonment, the Westchester might have been integrated into the IRT, a sort of extended Dyre Avenue operation. Yes, I know, there would have been legal problems in crossing the city line, but laws can always be changed.
If the Westchester had somehow held on to 1965 or so, this would have been a tempting application for an upgrade with Great Society funds into a sort of East Coast Skokie Swift -- perhaps a racetrack for DoT's State of the Art Cars.
In the even less likely event of survival into the 1990's, the possibility of light rail conversion, into something along Baltimorean lines, comes to mind.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Here's an interesting GO coming up next weekend and the two following:
Manhattan-bound N and 7 trains will bypass Queensborough Plaza station from 2200 Friday until 0500 Monday. A shuttle bus will connect from 39 Ave to Courthouse Square, operating in that direction ONLY. Hope all you people in Queens have fun!
That ok on the No.1/9 Line People are already complaining about bypassing 181 Street All Times intil Oct. of 1999.
we could always prolong the pain of rehabilitation by keeping s station open during recontruction, Right? 181st street the entire station and elevators look like something from a bad dream. 168th Street could definetly use some upgrading too.
What happens if you want to go the other way (from Ct. Hse. Sq. back to 39 Ave)? Also what's the deal with the stations that are ADA acessible in one direction only? According to "The Map" 50St/Av, N/R Cortlandt St are acessible Southbound only while Howard Beach, Atlantic Av [2/4] and Borough Hall [4/5] arre accesible Northbound only. What if a theoretical wheelchaired passenger lived or worked near one of these stations? I guess it's just the TA's token attempts at accesiblity in the subway system.
Mike
These accesibility situations are (except in 1 case) not TA dependent. 50 Street/8 Avenue and Cortlandt Street all are connected to building concourses on one side that is at platform level (the latter is the World Trade Center). Now HB I think has an entrance on only the airport side and there's a bridge linking them. Atlantic gets accessibility by being at LIRR level. And Borough Hall has only 1 4/5 platform linked to the accesible 2/3 platform (the other is opposite).
Howard Beach has entrances on both sides. The entrance on the outbound side requires stairs to enter or exit the fare control area, regardless of which direction you are travelling; the entrance on the airport side is a long ramp. Not that it does any good - the airport shuttle busses aren't accessible to wheelchair patrons.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Trains are only bypassing QBP Manhattan-bound. So if you want to go from Courthouse Square to 39th you would just transfer at QBP as you normally would.
If I were confined to a wheelchair, I wouldn't go near the subways. Even if I wanted to go between two stops which are fully accessible, what happens if my train gets re-routed?
Has anyone ever seen a wheelchair-bound passenger (panhandlers excluded)?
Yes, a couple of them, but never unaccompanied.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've seen one at Brooklyn Bridge, he didn't look like a panhandler.
I have seen one amazing guy (maybe you folks have seen him as well) back in the mid-1980s - he was a double-amputee who rode around on a dolly. I ran into him on the northbound "A" train just after boarding at Broadway-Nassau. This was an R38, pre-GOH. He came rolling through from one car to the next, much to the surprise of everyone in the car. He wasn't panhandling or anything, just rolling through the car. I never forgot that one.
Wayne
My wife and I met an a guy a couple of years ago at Roosevelt Ave waiting for the E who rode the subway in his wheelchair. We were thoroughly impressed.
He was a midget & had non-functional legs, but he had the strongest arms I've seen in my life. He lowered himself down the stairs using the railing with one arm while holding the folded wheelchair (which had a giant Puerto Rican flag attached to the back!) with the other, then unfolded it & pulled himself up into it when he got to the platform. When the train came he did a pop-a-wheelie over the gap between the platform & the train. He showed us pictures of him crossing the finish line in the NYC Marathon before he got off @ 53rd/Lex. When the train started & stopped he would let himself roll backwards/forwards a bit, so he wouldn't get jolted. It was like second nature to him.
No athlete can impress me after that...
Three cheers! He has obviously decided that he's not disabled, just differently abled - a wonderful attitude to have.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I oppose wheelchairs on the subway despite the fact that I have a younger brother who uses one. Several years ago, I think at Pacific Street, a wheelchair bound high school student was getting off a south-bound train. As he did, his book-bag, which was wrapped around the back of the wheel chair, got caught in a closing door. Well, you can imagine the outcome when the train started to move and he was flung at 25-35 MPH into a construction barrier and killed.
Doesn't this same person also go from car to car and ask for money also???
The TA does have ways to go in the other direction. For instance 50th st SOuthbound(ADA) to 175 GW Bridge bus-- Take the C or E to 42nd Port Authority, use the ramp to cross over and then take the uptown A.
The secret: Take the ADA accessible direction to an island platform (or to another ADA station) and cross over.
Why do some brooklyn bound trains end at whitehall st instead of going to brooklyn?
A train that terminates at a point short of its usual destination is called a "flip". The R train operates from Forest Hills to Whitehall Street, then "flips" back uptown. Usually, this is done during peak times to ease owercrowding or to fill in for a train that is behind schedule.
I think this is also done because there is no yard at 95th St. and all R trains are usually stored in Jamaica. If the train ran through it would have to come all the way back before being taken out of service.
Those R trains that go out of service at Whitehall are then sent 'light' to Canal St, and stored at City Hall lower level until the afternoon. Since I work early AMs, my guess is that in the afternoon, they come out and either go back to Whitehall middle track and go in service to Queens or they just go into service at Canal to Queens. The latter is what my first trip does on Mon and Tue as the o519 N to Ditmars.
Politics and Money. Those are the two things driving the Whitehall short turns.
Even though the ridership is roughly equal between Bay Ridge and Forest Hills, the people in Queens get more service.
Politics: The Queens democratic machine has more clout. they write more letters. So they get more trains.
Money: T.A. has but only so many trains. To give that extra service, while using fewer crews, the trains are turned at Whitehall or Canal.
The people in Queens wait less time for a train, and the T.A. gets it at a savings. But Joe Shmoe at 86th Street gets screwed. Typical T.A.
Something similar goes on with the Astoria-Sea Beach. There's not that much riding in Brooklyn after the rush on the N. But Astoria's got heavy standing room only crowds untill well after midnight.
Short turning some N's at Whitehall would relieve some of those crowds. A 20 minute headway begins just after 11 P.M. That's unrealistic in Queens. But justified in Brooklyn. So to save money, screw the fare paying riders in Astoria? You bet, typical T.A.
To short turn would mean the N line would need more crews. And that ain't happening. The R gets away with it because they shut down after midnight, so the time "lost" so to speak from the 8 hour day of short turn crews is made up with make work assignments. This allows managment to cut other jobs.
Conductors are supposed to work on the platforms to assist in clearing out lay up trains at Continental. Motormen make lay ups to the yard or relay trains. These are plum jobs for guys who don't have the seniority to pick full time yard or platform tricks.
I've read and talked to many people on the situation on the LIRR and about 90% of them have told me horror stories about it's service. I just was wondering why is it that I hear the most complaints about the LIRR vs. Metro North and NJTransit? I mean, and don't get me wrong but aren't the LIRR and Metro North both operated by the MTA. So why the problems with service on the LIRR and not Metro North. Just to make it claer my experience has mainly been on NJTransit and Metro North (Harlem and New Haven lines).
Short answers:
The LIRR is a much more complex system than MNRR or even Jersey Transit. The LIRR is also the busiest commuter RR is the country by far. Neither MNRR nor NJT has to deal with the complexity of guaranteed connections and conflicting lines LIRR does. There's much more that can go wrong the LIRR and it frequently does.
I couldn't leave the subject without commenting that MNRR seems to be consistently better managed than the LIRR, all other issues notwithstanding.
The MTA is more like a holding company than anything else. It handles the big money picture and the politics. It has no day-to-day responsibilities for operation.
There's something else. Metro North and NJ Transit get at least some competition from commuter buses. PATH also competes with NJ Transit to a limited extent. It's not perfect competition, far from it, but in some places it does exist. On the other hand, the LIRR faces virtually no competition outside of Queens - Long Island has no commuter buses.
Well, LIRR has competition for the Hamptons, I haven't seem it lighting any fires under east end service.
You can't mention the LIRR without mentioning the unions. The TA has (mostly) one union, which gets the credit or blame for the system. The LIRR has many, who blame each other if things go wrong, and do not take responsibility. Plus, the LIRR unions have the right to strike, and do every contract, just for the joy of screwing people over. And, they get paid more.
Recently, there has been a lot of press about the low pay NYC teachers and police officers get compared with their suburban counterparts. The idea is that those working in the city do a better jor orhave a tougher job, and are not rewarded. There is something of a case there. Same thing on the trains. Both Metro North and NYCTA have higher productivity than the LIRR, or so I'm told. Sometimes I wonder if some of the money that the MTA could be using for transit-worker raises is being siphoned off due to poor performance on the LIRR.
"I couldn't leave the subject without commenting that MNRR seems to be consistently better managed than the LIRR, all other issues notwithstanding."
Odd that you should mention management. The president Tom Prendegast
was a TA Senior VP and the CMO, Hector Perez, was a former Senior manager at the TA Division of Car Equipment. Both are collecting their TA pensions so how motivated are they really?
Perhaps this makes the case for coming up through the ranks. I think those who do are more committed to the organization. Also, I think that the MTA, itself creates a problem. It insulates our political leaders from heat and fallout when the organization falls short in performance.
I would say it has less to do with the size of the LIRR relative to Metro North - I'd say that a lot of LIRR's problems come from the fact that they operate at capacity. With things so congested from Penn to Jamaica, things go pretty haywire if there are any minor problems during rush hour. Few other systems (aside from NYCTA!) have this sort of capacity constraint...
But that is clearly not the whole story!
Doesn't Metro North have problems due to three lines using four tracks from Grand Central to the Bronx. If not, what do they do different from the LIRR
Four tracks is fairly generous for three lines IMHO.
The LIRR has trains to/from up to eight eastern brances on those tracks, plus it adds diesel trains from Hunterspoint/L.I.C. at Harold, and dodges Amtrak passenger trains (which generally have priority) and NJT deadheads at the west end. One of the electric lines peels off even before Jamaica.
At Penn, LIRR has only 9 tracks it can normally use, a few of which it sometimes shares with Amtrak. GCT has so many tracks, it can store equipment on them off-hours, and no Amtrak or NJT to play off against.
Three western branches converge at Jamaica with many guaranteed connections, then the lines begin splitting off again, one of them immediately east of the station. MNRR only has end-to-end connections, AFAIK.
Scheduling crews is a nightmare, too. I believe MNRR personnel stay on their own lines on any given job, either Hudson, Harlem or New Haven. (MNRR people confirm/deny?). On LIRR a job may start at any of a number of locations (such as Penn, Brooklyn, Babylon, etc.) and must end at the same location, but in between the crews may be all over the system.
I agree that the LIRR has one of the most complex operations imaginable -- and when it runs right it is darn impressive to watch (just stand at Jamaica during a smooth rush hour some time). In terms of train delays, I do cut LIRR some slack for the reasons you mention.
On the other hand, some of the LIRR's other issues (particularly maintenance problems and filthy trains) are inexcusable.
Subtalkers may be interested to learn that the NORTHERN LINE(Bank Branch) between Moorgate and Kennington in Central London will close from today Saturday the 3rd of July, to allow tunnel and track work to take place and the removal of various speed restrictions. The affected section is scheduled to open on Monday 6th September and will offer improved journey times.
The CIRCLE LINE is also suspended until Monday 16th August due to tunnel strengthening work, the surplus trains being used on the Hammersmith & City line instead.
Extra surface transport is being laid on with buses running to enhanced schedules!.
Monday Mornings commute should be interesting to us all!!!
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Since the Circle line is shared all the way around with the other surface lines (Metropolitan, H&C, District), what does the Circle line suspension actually entail? (Besides the lack of actual circular service, that is.)
-dave
The tunnel between Kensington High Street and Gloucester Road is closed so no Circle Line. Good eh! No extra Edgware Road service or Circle line from Gloucester Road to Aldgate, just a Hamersmith and City service to Aldgate which seems to turn up whenever it wants too.
What with the Northern closed and constant signal failures it looks like it will be a hot and crowded summer.
Simon
Swindon UK
No complete circle line journey is now possible, the Northern flank
being covered by:
Hammersmith & City Line- Paddington to Liverpool Street
Metroploitan Line- Baker Street to Aldgate
The Southern Flank covered by:
District Line- Tower Hill to Gloucester Road
So the missing sections are the Eastern Flank , Aldgate to Tower Hill
(pure Circle Line only) which has NO SERVICE, transfer has to be made via Aldgate East (Hammersmith & City/District Line)
and the Western Flank, Gloucester Road to Paddington. As NO SERVICE
is operating from Gloucester Road to High Street Kensington (pure Circle Line only), transfer at Earls Court (District Line and Wimbledon-Edgware Road Line)
Circle Line C69/77 stock being used to enhance Hammersmith & City Line services (except allover wrap "yellow pages" advert set now being
repainted )
regards
Rob :^)
(For those of you who are here, you'll probably see this when you return. Sorry I have not run in to any SubTalkers yet. If you're looking for me, i'm one of the younger attendees, with real short hair and sunglasses. Tomorrow I'll wear a black and grey stripe shirt.)
For those of you who aren't here, consider yourselves partly lucky-- you do NOT want to know how hot it is here.
Today was the first day of fan trips and we covered the Suburban Trolley - Red Arrow lines out of 69th Street Terminal.
First up was the Rt. 100 - Norristown line, out and back. We had a two car train of the Norristown LRV-type cars and a full load of passengers. Departing shortly after 10:00 our first photo stop was Haverford, then express to Norristown with the intent of meeting one of the R6 suburban trains. On our way back we stopped for photo stops at Gulph Mills, Bryn Mawr, and a couple of others, returning to 69th St. by 12:15.
After a brief lunch stop we boarded our two car set of LRV cars for our tour of the Rt. 101 and Rt. 102 - Media & Sharon Hill Lines. Numerous photo stops along the way including street-running portions in Media along State Street and along Woodlawn Ave. near Clifton-Aldan (not to be missed if you are planning a visit).
On my own, so far I have ridden the Market-Frankford El end to end in the new M-4 cars (seemed very nice to me--comfortable, a/c worked, annoucements mildly annoying). I did not see any M-3 cars still in service although there are plenty in the two yards. The ride is nice and smooth on this ballasted(on the west end)-concrete(on the east end) elevated structure. SEPTA is renovating all of the stations on the Frankford end. The untouched ones are in terrible shape but then so are the neighborhoods the el passes through. You pass street after street of boarded up houses, empty lots, junkyards, etc. Pretty sad really.
I also rode the PATCO end to end. This was a complete surprise. I had never ridden New Jersey's other rapid-transit third-rail type commuter railroad and compared to its northern neighbor PATH, PATCO is a pleasure to ride. Large commuter-coach-style cars (interiors reminded me of the Jersey Arrow cars in a way), very very fast acceleration, smooth track, railfan window, and an amazing ride over the Ben Franklin Bridge. (If only the NY DOT could get the Manhattan Bridge to be so useful.) My only complaint is that the headways, even on a Friday afternoon prior to a holiday weekend (I rode between 3 and 5pm) the headways were excruciatingly long and it didn't make for welcoming photo stops).
Well enough for now. Tomorrow is a tour of the City Division trolley lines starting with the subway surface lines and some of the north Philly lines as well.
-Dave
As I have mentioned in previous posts, some filming of NYCTA subways is actually done in Los Angeles. A former Southern Pacific yard was leased by Sony Pictures, upon which they constructed a four-track fake subway. They also made some fake R-27/30 type cars, which were powered by automotive engines/chassis. The fake cars can easily be spotted in the movies -- they have a window on the left side of the ends that matches the motorman's window; they also have a passenger window at the left front/right rear corners resembling the motorman's side windows. Among these fake cars, 8408 is a commonly seen number. The fake cars have shown up in "Die Hard 3: With a Vengeance" and "Money Train" as well as some commercials (notably NexTel).
Today I went up to the location of the fake subway, in the former SP yard. Unfortunately, bulldozers have done their job and some new industrial buildings are being built on the site. No more fake subway. No more fake cars, supposedly they are in a rail scrap yard in Colton, California and I will check on them in the next few weeks.
What I DID find though, nowhere near any rail tracks, and couldn't get close (but will check a map to find out how to get closer and photograph them) were a pair of R-27/30's in a field, on the opposite side of the Los Angeles River from the L. A. Zoo. (I was on a freeway so I couldn't stop safely.) They appeared to be in the MTA blue/silver paint scheme, but were HEAVILY grafittied (looks to be L.A. grafitti....) except for the rooftops. It was a rather "lucky" find, as "something" caught my eye as being a familiar shape a few hundred feet off to the side of the freeway while negotiating a busy interchange.....
Question: could those R-27/30 cars you saw been "donated" by one of the now "famous" New York based graffiti artists? I thought I recall hearing some years ago about one or more of those graffiti guys who went straight, buying a car or two to showcase the "classic 70's style" of graffiti art.
Could that be the explaination for those MTA schemed cars you saw?
Doug aka BMTman
I have absolutely NO idea what that pair of R27/30 cars were doing in Glendale (California). As I mentioned, I could not get close enough to do any close inspection, just caught sight of them from across ten lanes of freeway plus a four-hundred foot wide river. I did drive around trying to find a way to get closer, but could not; I did check some USGS maps and found streets that would get in, but that's for another trip.
I stated in the original post that the cars were nowhere near rails; I was wrong. It is about one-quarter mile to the former SP, now Metrolink line through Glendale. There might have even been a siding to where the cars were in the 4-5 foot high weeds they appeared to be sitting in.
I'm gonna guess they were just leftovers from the movie filmings done in the past couple years. Amazing where stuff winds up when the studios discard it.
The R-30's used in all those movies mentioned are real, not fake. A friend of mine took actual photographs of those cars when Sony Pictures finished filming the movie Money Train. There were 8 R-30's & 2 R-22's (money cars) sent there. Some of the cars were scrapped while others were sold. I am still trying to find out where the sold cars ended up at.
Note: Orange Empire Trolley Museum saved some brake valves, H-2-C couplers, WH control groups and other parts from those cars. The H-2-C couplers can be used as source of parts for the Pacific Electric cars which have H-2-A couplers.
When I saw the cars two years ago, yes, there were some REAL ones, but there were also some fake ones and you could definitely tell the differences. The fake ones had the extra window on the ends (both a motorman's window AND a left side window) as well as an extra passenger window on each side. There were about 15 cars in all when I saw them sitting next to the L.A. River north of downtown. (The "Money Train" cars were not there at the time.)
I just checked this afternoon (July 4th) at the rail scrap yard out near West Colton SP (UP) yard, and there definitely are about half a dozen cars there but they are NOT in a position to bo photographed, unless one just wants to see the roofline.
The two cars I spotted in Glendale appear to be real ones, they are in a weed-grown area at what looks to be at the end of "Braxzil Street" if anyone cares to look it up on a map.
Hey, just a wild thought -- is it possible that the LA subway system could put those old NYCTA cars to use (if they get the servicing that they need?) This would only work if the dimensions of BMT/IND configure with that of the LA system.
Any thoughts?
Doug aka BMTman
Not sure what the widths are here in Los Angeles, but the length of the LA cars is, I believe, 75-foot, so that wouldn't be a problem.
One problem that would develop is signalling -- everything is cab signal, nothing on the tunnel walls.
The other thing -- a very minor problem -- is that the train operators in LA are all on the LEFT side as it's all island platforms.
Speaking of the Money Train cars, I SWEAR I saw a glipse of one during a preview (I think it was for Mystery Men) Saturday at Sony Lincoln Square, when I went to see South Park.
-Hank
Hey, everybody. I just want to say that I am glad to finally find a message board associated with one of my main interests...subways (obviously). Anyway, I'm a soon to be high school junior in Hunterdon County, NJ. Also, I wanted to ask you guys a favor. I wanted to go on one of those subway tours sponsored by the NYC Transit Museum, but I found out that most of them are booked up for the summer. What I'm getting at is that I've been reading about how you all go on fan trips (the PATH one, most recently), and I was wondering if anybody could post or E-mail anything dealing with future tours or trips in the northeast. Well...that's it. Thanks again, and I hope I didn't clutter up this board too much by my babbling.
Welcome. Just monitor the messages and you will see.
Babbling?
Nonsense. Welcome to the best Subway Bulletin Board on the Net.
As you can see from the numerous postings that many of us are very opinionated (and some are rather longwinded) but it is always good to have a fresh "face" to bring things back into perspective.
Enjoy.
There's been some talk about a "Field Trip" on the SIRT. Maybe it won't happen & maybe it will.
Too bad you missed the Newark PCC/PATH "Field Trip" & NY Days in June at ShoreLine/Branford ... they were both great.
Mr t__:^)
Don't fret, MJ, I have been toying with the idea of a SBK/NYCRR/Bush Terminal area tour. Although it will be railfan oriented -- if it does become reality -- it will most likely be a walking tour.
I will keep all concerned posted on developments in regards to a tour of the Brooklyn Waterfront railways.
I agree with Thurston -- too bad you missed out on the PATH/NJ Transit tour of last Tuesday. It was fabulous!
Doug aka BMTman
A walking tour of the SBK/NYCHRR/Bush Terminal area sounds like a good idea, Doug. Perhaps you should include the 65th St.yards of the Bay Ridge branch? (Or is that too far away?)
Once the weather gets a bit cooler! I'd love to go, but definately notin this heat.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, not to worry guys -- this is definitely do-able, but in cooler temps to be sure.
For Bob: actually we are talking about 38th/39th street area, so yes, 65th street is a bit of a walk. However, with good company and a descent pair of shoes, yes we could walk it. (The blocks are not long in that section of Brooklyn).
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, I would possibly be interested in a walking/driving tour of the Bush area.I actually mapped out the tracks/sidings a bit a couple of years ago.
I will be in the States between Jul 26- Aug 15. Not avalable Saturdays.
Ben-Zion
Ben-Zion, July and August are brutal months for any kind of outdooring touring. If we go by car, it might not work out since there is no way to truly gauge how many people are going to show for one of these things.
But, it is something I'll keep in mind. If indeed I were to get an advance "head-count" of persons definitely willing to take the tour, then of course the driving tour aspect could work.
I'll keep the SubTalk gang abreast of my plans.
Doug aka BMTman
Depending on the schedule, I'd be willing to drive up from Jersey - and I've got a Windstar (7 people including driver). I might bring either my wife or my son, but that would still leave five seats.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
count me in. maybe we use cb's to keep in touch
I haven't had one of those in fifteen years - how about cellphones?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I can get the day as an AVA, I'm in: and I also have a mini-van with room for 6 others. I just did something similiar, and probably a lot quicker, with another conductor last week after the T/O prep class. He had been asking about the LIRR tracks in the Sea Beach cut, so I showed him where they went. He really didn't want to believe they were the same tracks he passes over with his 3 train.
Have you considered becoming a member of the Transit Museum? Members get an week before the general public to make reservations.
Rode the A from Bway-ENY to 207. At first an R44 came into the station. Let it pass by. Too crowded. Then an R38 came 10 minutes later. Did not get a railfan until Nassau. The run from Chambers to 59 is Ok. Lot of time signals. From 59 to 125 was cool northbound. We got to 40 @ 103. From 125 to 145 there are the time signals again. From 145 to 207 was straight. Southbound, there was some type of cnstruion betwen and 181. From 125 to 59 was the best part of the ride. Green signals all the way down withe the exception of one yellow signal to slow us down. 4100 was really moving. Also from 59 to 42, we roared into the station. I actually caught people on the northbound side looking at the train in amazement as we barreled into the station. That female motorman knew how to work that R38......... to be continued...............
Has anyone else noticed that the A/B/C/D trip from 125 to 145 is faster on the local track (including the stop at 135) than it is on the express track?
I was in NYC last month and had the privledge to ride an E train of R-32's from WTC to Roosevelt Avenue. the female operator was awesome!! She knew how to make that train go to warp speed and my kids really enjoyed the railfan window.
Well, if you're on a D train of R-68s, that's not surprising, especially if you're going against a C train of R-32s or R-38s. With a B train of R-68s, it's like a turtle race.
I can think of several locations in which locals zoom right along while expresses crawl, no matter what equipment is involved.
From where I left off........ The trip into Brooklyn was good as well we zipped into High St. But in Brooklyn. We were beaten by a R32 appraoaching Nostrand. It also caught up to us at ENY. That was due to workers on the tracks fixing signals and repair work from that fire. Comments
1. Chambers St look good. Hopefully Park Place will complement it....
2. Can anybody explain the junction at W.4? Where the JFK express come up? How the A,D, and F trains use it for reroutes in Brooklyn and Manhattan?
3. How did the trains turn around at the lower level at 42 St?
4.What is the track configuration at 135/Homeball Alley? Does the A and D use the seperate express tracks or just the two middle ones?
That was my last railfan trip for the summer.:(:( I am now back in SC. I wont be back to NYC until Dec with a degree in my hands. I will continue to help out where possible and ask questions. To everybody in NYC, keep on railfanniing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll give it a shot.
At W. 4th St., the local tracks have interconnecting switches. South of the station, the 8th Ave. local tracks descend to the same level as the 6th Ave. local tracks, and it is here that the switches are located. This is where the JFK Express switched over. I understand this junction has been reworked somewhat; specifically, it is no longer possible to switch from the northbound 8th Ave. local track to the 6th Ave. track, but it is possible the other way around.
Rerouted A, B, and D trains must first be on their respective local track in order to be switched over. Southbound A trains, if they're rerouted through the Rutgers tunnel, are switched to the local track just before entering 59th St. This is the last crossover before Canal St. F trains are already on the local track, so they're all set.
Trains are not turned around at the 42nd St. lower level. It consists of one track and one platform, and is accessible only by southbound trains coming off the Queens line, namely, E trains. Rush hour E trains used it during the early 70s. Aqueduct Specials originated from the lower level, but more than likely they ran light from Jamaica Yard. Otherwise, they would have to wrong rail into that station from 34th St., or do a back-and-forth maneuver from 42nd St. Now that it's been permanently sealed off, the only useful purpose the lower level would have now would be for emergency use by E trains if they couldn't get into 42nd St for some reason.
At Homeball Alley, A and D trains approach the diverting routes on the same express track. A trains continue straight ahead, while D trains turn off to the left or to the right, depending on whether they're running express or local in the Bronx. I remember being on a rerouted D train once which skipped 135th St. while running on the storage track; i. e., the track directly adjacent to the northbound local track. The storage tracks actually merge before trains reach the diverting routes.
I stand corrected in advance for any mistakes or oversights.
I got a photo album from the Transit Museum yesterday with a map on the front showing B service on Central Park West at rush hours only (tha map ic cut off before the end of the line). The map also has the stations that can accept MetroCard highlited. Does anyone know when this service ran?
Probably during 1995, when the Manhattan Bridge was closed from 9:30 AM to 3:30 PM weekdays (April to November).
The Map that year had 2 sides, one with regular service, and one showing service with the bridge diversions. The regular service map showed B service as rush hour-only. B trains ran as a shuttle from Pacific-CI when the bridge was closed.
That sounds like a 1995 map.
The MetroCard was started in late 1994 and it was originally blue. It was nothing more than a card to store subway fares so you wouldn't have to carry tokens around. You could only use them in certain subway stations (highlited on the map), you couldn't use it on the buses and free transfers and unlimited ride stuff didn't exist. During 1995 and 96, as the MC became more and more popular, the turnstiles in subway stations were replaced by ones with farecard readers and the fareboxes on buses were replaced. I think Staten Island became the first borough to have MetroCard buses in 1996.
By this time in 1997, all subway stations and buses accepted MetroCard and a new gold MetroCard was put into use, the blue one was discontinued (although you could still use whatever was left on the blue one or transfer it to a gold one). The July 4th weekend, 1997 was also when the Staten Island Ferry fare was discontinued. Free bus-subway transfers were started at that time and unlimited rides were started last year.
That rush-hour B service ran during the 1995 Manhattan Bridge Rehabilitation program (like it really made much of a difference -- probably just a bunch of GO's to make it look like they were doing something important), and the map you were looking at was probably the double-sided 1995 map with the service changes listed on it -- one side was for Weekday Midday & Weekend and the other side was for Rush Hour, Weekday Evening, and Late Night.
I believe that the Metro Card was introduced in early 1994(January to be exact). And was at the time good for use at 69 stations, including the St. George terminal in Staten Island.
I think the introduction of Metrocard started initially at Whitehall & Wall Street in January 1994 being the first two stations online.
You are both right! The two test stations were Wall and Whitehall and the first rollout was at the 69 stations including St George.
This was before I worked for NYCT but I bought MetroCards from the start and I do remember that in 1994 or 1995 they had weekend $1 ride specials but noly with metroCard. I do not remember the test staions since I was out of the city until April 1994.
With it already so hot this 4th of July, and with temps in the 90s to 100 for the next couple of days, I wonder how hot those subway stations are going to get.
I may go into NYC on Tuesday, so I may find out how NYC subways are during a heat wave.
Any memories of riding the subway in a heat wave will be appreciated.
Stay cool!
VERY, VERY, VERY HOT....DID I MENTION IT WAS GOING TO BE VERY HOT? I hope you take a line that runs frequently...like the IRT (but even then there will be body heat if the train is crowded). If you are stuck waiting for a G or other train that odesn't run as often...especially in non rush-hours, bring the water bottle!! Thank goodness for air conditioning in the subway cars...if you get a car that is un-air conditioned, move into the next car...its likely that the rest of the train will be cool. IN CASE I FORGOT, IT'S GONNA BE VERY, VERY HOT DOWN THERE.... -Nick :)
Nick,
It's going to be hot?? I'll keep that in mind when I am in an a/c #6 heading to work tomrrow.
John, If you want a hot train, take the "11th" car on any #7 train (usually either the 3rd car or 9th car depending on the direction). Those single R33 units are the only Non-A/C cars still in road operation.
Actually, the R32GE cars are also non-A/C. The A/C units were installed but there developed problems with the compressor cradles, so the A/C is inactive. These cars can be seen on the "A" and "C" lines, and can be tough to spot now due to the proliferation of regular MKCo R32s. The number plaques are slightly different, and they look like R38s inside. There are only eight out on the road, two others were built but now exist as parts cars.
Wayne
Hey, I always wondered about those cars. They looked confusing, R-32 on the outside, R38 on the inside. I rode one last week, and I just thought the AC was broken.
BTW, they're on the A line now.
I'm surprised that they're out there at all this time of year. Policy in the past has been to keep these cars out of service during the summer months due to their lack of A/C. I guess with the WB shutdown they need every car they can get on the "A" line. They must be intolerable in this heat, with not even a fan to create a breeze inside.
Wayne
They kept them on the line last year too. Ridership levels demand it but I bet those cars are empty this weekend.
I rode in one of those non-a/c cars on my Flushing line tour last year on a hot day in August but it wasn't so bad, if you stood right under the fan. :-)
-dave
I'm sure you'll find some die-hards who are impervious to the heat fanning themselves as they go. I for one can't ever forget my commuting days some twenty-five years ago, riding the Queens IND in such lovely trains as R-6 (all varieties), R-7, R-16, R-38 and the deadly Non-A/C Slant R40. It was like a gift from heaven when the R44s began making their appearance.
Wayne
For a real trip down nightmare lane, try remembering what it was like during heatwaves riding on those green R10's. Those small fans were absolutley useless, and the deafining din these cars made was amplified by having all the windows and storm doors hooked in the "open" position. Perhaps earplugs should have been sold all during summer along the C route. LOL.
It's not just the subways. I'm thinking about Tuesday on the LIRR, given the proliferation of "hot cars." Those things are like furnaces even if it's only 75 or 80 degrees out. I can't begin to comprehend what one's like when it's 100 out.
It was always thus with the R-10s, green paint scheme or traditional grey and orange. I remember a ride on the "A" train on August 5, 1971. Lead motor (and dark car) #3194. We blasted up CPW at what felt like a top speed of 50 MPH - did it make a difference? NO. Did the darkness of the first car make a difference? NO. Did the eight GE bracket fans make a difference? NO. Did the open windows and storm door at the #2 end make a difference? NO. As Buster Poindexter (fka David Johanssen) put it - HOT HOT HOT!! R-10 was beautiful to behold, and a classic SMEE car in every way, but it was murder in the heat.
Wayne
I never noticed the heat problems inside either the slant R-40's or the R-10's in my youth -- after all I rode between cars to get that oh, so wonderful breeze (even if it was hot air) as the cars sped on Culver or the Brighton line. Of course, the horrible rattling din of the R-10's (particularly on curves or over switches) was mind numbing.
But I still love those cars!
Doug aka BMTman
The love people have for the R-10 escapes me. Perhaps its because I'm young. Yeah, it was fast, but so was the R-32, and infinately more comfortable, even before it was overhauled.
Yes, the R-32s could certainly hold their own in a speed contest. When they first appeared on the D in late 1967, they would streak effortlessly along CPW at a slightly lower decibel level than the R-10s. Their blue doors were a trademark.
In my case, I took a liking to the A line early on when we moved to Jersey, and the R-10s ruled on that route for years. It was a marriage made in heaven, as far as I was concerned. To this day, I've ridden on more A trains than any other route in New York, and the great majority of those A trains consisted of R-10s. It's true that my license plates say 8AVEXP, but two of my other options were ATRAIN and R-10.
You and me both, my friend. I stick by my guns when I say the R-10s weren't that bad in terms of noise back in their heyday on the A line. At least I never had to hold my ears while thundering past 81st St. at full throttle. Put it this way: the R-10s were nothing compared to the 6000s (or 2600s today) in the State St. subway in Chicago. Oi vay!
Yeah, till the P-wire failed! Then every one got thrown off and had to ride one of the good trains. The ones you mentioned first: R-7 R-16 or R-40.
The WORST experience with heat and non-A/C equipment on the Queens IND had to be one hot day in early September 1973 - it had to be in the mid to upper 90s. I made the mistake of waiting out the "F" train at 53rd & Lex (you wouldn't see me ride the "E" even if there was an A/C'd R40 on it) and soon the sand ran out of the hourglass - then - along comes this R-6/R-7 mix "F" train, steam wheezing at every joint, a couple of thousand passengers aboard, R-6-1 #1277 in the lead - the train was already jammed to the fan blades and people were on each other's laps and what does the mob at Lexington do? They try and get on board! Some of us made it (myself included). After about five minutes of trying to get the doors closed, we were off on bouncing jaunt through the tunnel, with everybody in the car getting pitched around, falling into each other. And to top it all off - the heat in the car was on! People were fainting and passing out. Then, while still deep beneath the East River came the topper - at the far end of the car came the unmistakable sound of somebody in acute gastric distress. Enough said! We did not stop at 23rd-Ely; we rolled through slowly, the motorman tooting his whistle. When we finally arrived at Queens Plaza, people fell out of the car like in the stateroom scene in the Marx Bros' "A Night At The Opera". It was a miserable ride.
Wayne
I guess you had to be there. You had to feel sorry for the conductor trying to close the doors with no PA system. Oh and BTW, did the bull and pinion gears get anywhere F# or G above middle C?
P. S. You mean you disliked the E train as much as I did? I wouldn't be caught dead on one of those south of 42nd St.
We got up to about F above middle C, I'd say. We were really rocking and rolling in that tunnel, perhaps getting up to 40 or 45. Every so often you'd hear the "kchhhhhahhhh" of the brakes as the motorman played patty-cake with the GTs. One very tall gentleman had his Afro hairdo come in contact with the whirling blade of a pointy-nosed GE fan (after all, it was a Pullman_Standard R-6-1), which caused him quite a surprise. I can't remember how many times the C/R tried to get the doors closed, it was quite a few. Before that "F" arrived, I had saluted no fewer than four "E"s (on principle, not common sense; at least two were R40, and one had A/C'd cars). The temperature inside of #1277 had to be over 100 degrees, perhaps more like 110. In any case, it was an oven. We were probably nearing the Queens side of the East River tunnel when "Ralph" made his unwelcome appearance down at the far end of the car. We were a good five minutes plus at the Plaza, too, because a good number of people wanted OFF and an equal number of people wanted ON, plus the sick passenger had to be cleared. I managed to elbow my way off the train at 71st-Continental Avenue (I had tried and failed at Roosevelt, since I had boarded on the car's left side at Lex, and all doors from that point on would open on the right), by this time it had become quite unpleasant aboard. We probably got that F# somewhere between 63rd Drive and 67th Avenue. Once at 71st Avenue, a non-A/C Slant R40 "E" arrived to take me to 169th Street; at this point I would have welcomed an ox-cart.
Wayne
Ah, yes, that patented, trademark, AMUE "tchh-hsss" lap-release sound the R-1/9s used to make. It was just one of many marvelous sounds emitted by those cars. I understand the Triplexes made that same sound as well. It's easy to imagine steam billowing out of their sides, given the way they would snarl and hiss as they pulled into a station. Did that fellow with the Afro wind up with a butch cut? I kind of figured the ceiling fans would be wadawadawada-ing away, but the heat on? OI VAY!!! At least that train didn't break down in the middle of the river tunnel. It would have been deja vu all over again for you - weren't you on an E train that croaked a few years before that?
I often wonder what conductors would do in those days if the crush of passengers was so great they couldn't get the doors closed. Were they allowed to say or shout out anything?
Yes we were in an "E" train which gave up the ghost just after leaving 50th Street-8th Avenue. R-6-3 #991 was the lead motor. The heat was on there too. Even though it was November 29, 1968, it was still rather uncomfortable, since we were stalled. The crew tried repeatedly to get us going - we'd lurch a foot or two and stall. We were there for forty-five minutes before they were able to limp us into 7th Avenue, and we were bucking and shuddering as we went. As we expected, we were ordered off at 7th Avenue. The "E" just sat there with doors closed. I then steered Dad to an R32 "D" to take us to 47th-50th, and after a hop over the mezzanine, a Slant R40 "F" arrived and whisked us to Queens.
Moving ahead to that gruesome day (September 11, 1973) - the gent with the 'fro didn't lose any of his do - the fan blade merely bopped it, but it was enough to startle him. I did not hear the conductor shouting anything, but he was five units astern of where I was. The human cascade at Queens Plaza - quite an amusing sight. I immediately thought of the Marx Bros. When I first saw "A Night at The Opera" [HONK HONK! Make that two hard-boiled eggs..] I laughed myself silly at the end of the stateroom scene. I don't think the folks on the QP platform were laughing when the doors of that "F" opened.
Wayne
I get the idea that we both enjoy reminiscing - I know I do. One question: if everybody was in such a hurry to pile out at Queens Plaza, why did you stay on board? Was it a case of not getting off in time, or was there an equal crush of passengers wanting to get on? You said you were pinned in on the left side of the car and, of course, the doors would open to the right. I'll bet that conductor put some wear and tear on those door control triggers.
I have to admit I never encountered a train of R-1/9s which broke down. Or any other cars, for that matter. I'm this close to saying everybody out and push regarding that E train. There isn't much of a downhill run between 50th St. and 7th Ave., is there? Otherwise, that train could have just rolled into 7th Ave.
BTW, September 11, 1973 was a milestone day for me: I got my driver's license that day.
Well, (back to September 11, 1973), I was stone pinned in that car, unable to move in any direction. When we got to QP, anybody that was near the doors fell out. There were some people further in that also wanted to get out. A good number at the back of the car (where the lunch was lost) tried to bail out too. At the same time, refugees from the "EE" (remember THAT one?) and "GG" were trying to get on. I made a feeble attempt to get off at QP but could not budge. Couldn't get off at Roosevelt either; had to ride in that stinky train all the way to 71st Avenue. The conductor had quite a time getting the doors closed.
Going over to 50th Street, the tracks between there and 7th Avenue take a 90-degree turn then slope up ever so slightly to 7th Avenue. The Queens-bound "E"s use the lower level at 7th Avenue as well.
Wayne
I remember in early summer on a warm noon no less than a ten degrees
cooler station on the Canarsie in the tunnel in Brooklyn.
I almost forgot about those R33 singles until I came across #9339 on a warm day about two weeks ago. Open windows,storm doors hooked back,and the FANS going full blast! The only thing missing was the screech of cast iron brakes. Deja vu all over again!
Hey, out doors the R-33 singles aren't too bad. In the terminal at Main St. or in Manhattan then it's a different story.
The real problem under ground is the Air Conditioners themselves. The condensers of the A/C units blow all their heat into the tunnels. If there was some sort of ventilation system to suck out the heat it would help.
There are some tunnel fans available, but they really don't help much.
The tunnel fans are not always used. Last summer the press told of the heat at 168 on the 1 and how they stopped using the fans which are under the control of the fire department. TWU complained and the fans were turned on.
The heat seems to accumulate in transfer stations, with lots of trains going through. My station -- Prospect Park 15th St -- is still much cooler than the street as of today.
Tomarrow could be hell.
I agree. The WTC Complex (A/E/2/3) is very hot. As you round the bend from Sbarro's towards the E train you feel the heat even inside the WTC
You've got that nice mezzanine there to absorb and dissipate some of the heat. Doesn't 15th Street station also have vent chambers in its walls that would tend to release heat up the gratings and into the street?
Wayne
You know that 125st station on 4,5,6 trains is the hotting in the station and i was burning like hell.
Also went i got on #6 car #1725 have no A/C and the car was like so hot inside. People was packed on the next car and empty on #1725. I hope the city will not get a blackout and i really need A/C to keep me alive.
If you get an R62 or R62A car with no A/C do what I did when I got on #1374 on the #4 line earlier this year - notify the conductor or the train operator, and cite the car number. Tell them "#1725 has no air conditioning" or something to that effect. They usually pull cars with no A/C if they are made aware of it.
Wayne
depending how the railroad is running those hot cars may continue running till late in the day when they're layed up and then shopped. If there are enough cars in the yard where a swap can be made usually this is done during non rush hour. I can't see the logistics of pulling a ten car train out of service for one or two hot cars during rush hour, several cars in the consist it makes sense to remove from service.
I hate to bust your bubble but the policy from Jay Street is that hot cars are OK for service and are only shopped after service. Furthermore train crews are ordered by control center to remain in service and pick up an RCI. I was told by them that if I refused I would be charged with insubordination. Common sense does not prevail in the TA. If OSHA says that laborers working in temperatures above the human body temperature must be afforded drinking water and a rest period, such as the track workers do then they don't give a damn about us as they don't consider us as laborers. If they don't care aout train crews, do you think they really care about customers with asthma or the elderly? I have recorded temperature exceeding 120 degrees in trains layed up in outdoor yards and still was ordered by yardmasters to put the train into service. I think the days of David Gunn were comfortable for this type of weather even though 75 percent of the equipment wasn't air conditioned but the system was bearable as storm doors were hooked open and ceiling fans were cheaper to maintain. I remember the old IND as being cool in this weather as most cars didn't have dynamic brake either when I was young. Air conditioning created this nightmare you occasionally ride in today. It is too bad that the axiflow fans on previous cars could not have made to the specs of Almond Joys. Anyone out there miss the storm door windows of R-22s?
Those were good windows. The R-21s had them, as did the BMT standards. Don't forget the porthole storm door windows on the R-11s, R-15s, R-16s, and R-17s.
Yeah, they say it's gonna be 100 Tuesday again, and this time all those offices will be open, consuming electricity with the high residential demand. Anybody think we are on a road to another NYC blackout.
What do they do if there's a blackout in the subway. Is there emergency lighting, how do people get out of stuck trains, especially in narrow tunnels like the 7 train tunnels under the East River?
Anybody been in the subway in a blackout?
There is some emergency lighting in some stations (with more being added.) If a train stops between stations the police also usually respond. Emergency exits are located in tunnels. All NYCT employees are trained in evacuation procedures (including stations employees.)
Yes, the trains would stop, but crews have flashlights and would evacuate the train when advised by control or the police would respond and evacuate the train.
Why on earth don't they keep the fans on?
Transit claims that it is too hard to reverse the fans
I believe TA doesn't want to use the fans since money used to operate the fans in some form or another comes out of Station Manager/Field Manager or what ever they're calling themselves these days pockets. Line pockets of management and damn the people who have to bear the discomfort of using one of the most uncomfortable stations systemwide (168 st). I don't buy for a minute that TA has to account to the FDNY for use of those fans...
If the TA really doesn't like fans, the cold water down pipes plan at GCT sounds like a good plan for other stations. Though I do like standing under the fans while waiting for the GC shuttle at TS! -Nick
My memories:
as a teen riding the IRT with the end doors held open. When they started locking the front windows, I would ride by the front cab in the second car to get the breeze from between the cars (riding inside the car). The BMT cars with locked ends doors were actually cooler than the IRT. The only BMT problem I recall was a stalled train, with smoke due to a Hot Box after descending the Manhattan bridge to Brooklyn. We limped into Myrtle Ave where the train was pulled.
I also recall when the IRT had some A/C cars- the cars had a special decal outside which I found after several rides where the condcutor would tell the people in the two cars he used that there is an Air conditioning in the next car. (this decal was in addition to the yard assignment color band)
This makes me wonder, once again, if the TA is ever going to think about AC in stations...How about a little of it (don't try to cool anything to 65 degrees) in the HEAVILY travelled stations? Often, I think AC is a waste of money and energy, and actually uncomfortable, but not when platforms are crowded underground. I would imagine a lot of folks avoid the subway in the hot summer because of the heat down there!
the problem is that the stations are open. Even if you put doors at the top or bottom or both sides of the stairs the tunnels are still hot. there are also stations with no mezzanines such as Astor Place IRT or WTC E Line. Air conditioning the stations sounds great but can you imagine the cost and the power- fans yes, AC wont work.
Stations in DC - where it is even more hot and humid - are open, and air conditioned. It may be that they are somehow designed to have a curtain of air somewhere that prevents the air from exchanging, but I never noticed anything like that. Cool air, after all, sinks.
If you are sitting on the #7 platform in Times Square this time of year you get the distinct impression that the air down there does NOT exchange much with outside air. I am not saying that all underground stations should be conditioned - but I think they should consider it at the horribly busy ones. It can be done...
So the tunnels can be blocked with platform doors.
if a ventilation system drawing in fresh air from above ground and exhaust system at an opposing end of the station which would create an overall draft would be an improvement over nothing that exists now. Apparently i've heard though the grape vine that the system being installed at Grand Central for the lexington ave & #7 will employ air blown across chilled water pipes,, sounds good any other techniques out there?
Bring one of those battery-operated fans with you on your MTA journey. You can pick them up for like a $1 at like any junk store. The Union Sq. station (4,5,6) has overhead FANS on those platforms. Try to center your travels around that spot!!!! Have fun
Hi! Happy Fourth of July!
This is my first time contributing to this message board and I hope that I will continue to do so. It's very cool to know that there are a lot of people like me who are interested in subways. I thank everyone at www.nycsubway.org for expanding my knowledge and my interests in train transportation.
I live in Wyckoff Heights which is in Brooklyn on the border of Queens. Thus the subway station that I frequently use is DeKalb Avenue on the L line. (I chose 456 Sub as my name because it sounds better than "L".) I have some comments and also some questions that I hopw you could answer...
1. I have read a lot of comments on this and I must agree with the majority... The Montrose Avenue Station has THE MOST beautiful mosaics on the entire L line (if not the same of its kind on the BMT and certainly IND lines!) and I wish the other mosaics on the line could be as colorful -- not the drab, depressingly gray, blue or brown-looking "crazy quilt" borders on the other L stations.
2. When will the supposed R143 (correct me if I'm wrong) cars be manufactured, delivered and put in revenue service? The first subway line that I believe will use this car will be the L.
3. At the 8th Av.-14th St. station, I think new elevators will be installed in the station: 1 elevator for the L, 1 for uptown ACE and 1 for downtown ACE. Is this true? And if it is, will more stations on the L be wheelchair-accessible with elevators, ramps, etc. (i.e. Union Square, 6th Av., B'way Junction, Rockaway Pkwy)?
4. With the clousure of the Williamsburg Bridge, the L train service at rush hours should be either: skipped-stopped between 1st Av. and Bway Jct. with both service trains stopping at Lorimer and Myrtle (one train skips Bedford), terminating at Atlantic or Rock Pkwy; -or- express service with one train going express between Lorimer and Myrtle terminating at Atlantic Av. and the other train going express between Myrtle and Bwy Jct. going to Rock Pkwy. This will benefit both L and JMZ riders with better, faster service and also provide a better alternative to upper and east Brooklyn (i.e. the fire at B'way-ENY AC station). It would be a great experiment for the L if this succeeds.
5. Finally, I notice new tiles at Union Square on all the lines that it serves. What is supposed to be "the theme" for this station with some rather UGLY sea-green tiles covering old mosaics in the passageways? But there are A LOT of improvements -- the L train platform looks brighter and better than it did, say 5 years ago
(despite those weird-looking fire-extinguisher doors covered in glass and red doors) and there are new tiles on the NR platforms with provisions to extend the original Union Square picture mosaics. Too bad the MTA doesn't have (or never will have) enough money to correct the curved U Sq 456 platforms. I think it's too difficult to even try.
That's it for now. Thanks!
;p
JP456Sub
Yes, I will have to agree with you on Montrose - that one's a Blue Ribbon Winner for sure!
However, there are others that deserve an honorable mention - Wilson Avenue with its 28 colors, Bushwick-Aberdeen, Myrtle Avenue, First Avenue and Graham Avenue. The ugliest one? Bedford Avenue. No contrasting colors at all - the same parchment brown in the center, and the border's green (where you can see it), which does nothing to offset the brown. Grand Street is pretty ugly too, but the orange and blue kind of save the day. De Kalb is rather drab as well, as is 6th Avenue, but that one looks better in the mezzanine. Jefferson has a nice border, with the dark blue and brown mixing in with the yellow and light blue.
I think the R143 are due to arrive next year or perhaps early 2001. These are not a replacement order, they are an addition to the fleet. They will be 60-foot cars arranged in four-car sets like the R68A.
As for skip-stop service on the "L" - some of the stations are too close to one another (i.e. Grand and Montrose, Graham and Lorimer) to warrant it- it would probably result in the express trains waiting for the locals and would negate any time savings. Plus there's still the issue with the ventilation fan in the East River tube - they still don't let more than one train through at a time.
I'll have to do some research on the other items - save them for my next trip into town. They saved the frieze at Union Square and put new pre-fab panels (with the sea foam green borders) beneath them. But it still needs to be cleaned and reglazed. They did it at 36th Street-4th Avenue, why not here?
Wayne
How do fans limit the number of trains in an under-river tunnel?
Since the ventilation plant on the Manhattan side of the East River is not functioning properly/is undergoing repair, they have decided to limit the number of trains travelling through the 14th Street tube to one in each direction, figuring that if evacuation due to fire would be necessary, and the fact that the ventilation equipment is not in working order, only one train would need to be evacuated. They are choosing to err on the side of caution.
Wayne
While there is no scheduled express service, I have seem many trains ordered to run non-stop between Myrtle and Lorimer (and Last week, Graham), and sometimes from Lorimer to Union Sq. Alot of those inbetween stations are in industrial areas (I call it the "factory belt"), and don't have that many people at them.
1st and 3rd Av. really need to be skipped, because not too many people get off there, but several get on, but people getting on to go towards Union Sq, 6th or 8th Av have the M-14 option. It's annoying that they try to squeeze on the L with so many people diverted from the bridge. Often, it's at that point that the doors start giving out,(I guess they are not used to such loads. The Eastern div. usually has alot of standing room). One week there were breakdowns almost every day (and when there wasn't, then it was the 4 & 5 that messed up).
when did the sea beach become known as the N train? Is there anywhere I can document this?
The Sea Beach did not become the "N" train all at once in the sense that one day it was the Sea Beach and the next it was formally known as the "N".
Orginal BMT equipment either carried the line name only, or carried the line name on side signs, and a number on the front signs. The D-type equipment which provided all or part of the service on the line at various times carried number "4". R-type equipment which operated from time to time on the line prior to 1960 carried the "4" on both side and front signs. But noone called it the "4 train". They called it the Sea Beach Line or Sea Beach Express.
When R27 equipment arrived late in 1960, the Sea Beach was signed "N" on that equipment. However, D-types carried "4" until the end of their service in (IIRC) 1964. So for four years or so you could see trains signed either "4" or "N" on the Sea Beach, or if they were BMT Standards (which lasted fibe years longer than the D-Types), no number or letter at all.
It wasn't until the Chrystie connection in 1969, with its massive realignment of routes, that letters on the former BMT lines really began to take hold officially, and ordinary people began to slowly adopt the letters as the line names.
Documentation? Probably the best would be ERA NY Division Bulletins, because they chronicle first sightings/last sightings, car deliveries and retirements and so forth.
I hope I haven't made this too confusing. You could say the Sea Beach became the "N" line when the first cars were signed that way (1960), when the last cars bearing "4" were retired (prob. 1964), when the lines were realigned (1969) or when people slowly gave up the old nomenclature and commonly called the Sea Beach the "N train" (somewhat later).
I'm really curious as to which method you're inclined to use.
The Chrystie was opened in 1967, not 69.
For the record, BMT number markings were officially dropped when the Chrystie St. connection first opened on Nov. 26, 1967. However, Southern Division routes were letter-only by 1965, when the last of the Triplexes were withdrawn. For a time in the early 60s, there was a potpourri of either no markings at all (BMT standards); numbers (Triplexes and R-11s); and letters (R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s). The R-27s ushered in letter markings on the Southern Division when they arrived in 1960. They also kept the old route names so as to minimize confusion. It is worth repeating that Brooklynites referred to Southern Division routes by title (Brighton, 4th Ave., West End, Sea Beach, Culver) and not by number (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5) mainly because the BMT number code was never consistently applied to rolling stock.
To sum it up, the Sea Beach became the N unofficially when the R-27s began to appear on weekends in the early 60s, and officially on Nov. 26, 1967.
Thanks Paul and Steve for clearing up the Sea Beach number-letter changes that took place between 1960-1967, and to those who answered my original question of why there was a #4 Sea Beach running on January 24, 1970. A whole lot was cleared up. As a kid at heart, I have a lot of fond memories of riding the Sea Beach to the homes of both sides of my Grandparents during the late 1940's and early to mid
1950's before we moved to California in 1954. I still have to admit that I liked the number system a lot better. The Brighton Beach took me to Ebbets Field to see the Brooklyn Dodgers play and that was the #1 train. That was Pee Wee Reese's number. The #4 to my grandparents and to Coney Island was Duke Snider's number. I said I was still a kid at heart even if I'm 58. When I go to New York next month, I will ride the Sea Beach and Brighton Beach and pretend it is my youth all over again. Thanks again for all the useful information.
Ahhhh, Ebbets Field. American Heritage recently called it the most overrated ballpark, but it was more than the technical sufficiency of the field itself.
I only went a few times, but the flavor was much different from the modern stadiums like the sterile Shea Stadium. I never had a "good" seat, but the seat I did have was still intimate to the field. The fans were colorful without being thuggish. You arrived by subway or trolley bus or trolley, bought snacks from vendors outside the field, if an adult maybe visited the German beer garden.
You waited outside to get a ball or program autographed, and many of the ball players seemed happy to do it. And whether they signed or not, they wouldn't have even thought of charging for the autograph. Gil Hodges would chat with some of the kids who hung out outside his apartment building on E.18th St.
On a transit note, I remember a long string of Triplexes lined up on the northbound express track on early fall sundays just outside Prospect Park station. Usually assigned to the express in the last years of Ebbets Field, these trains waited for the crowds to come pouring out to whisk them over the Manhattan Bridge, up the Broadway Express to 57th Street. They then returned as Brighton Locals and laid up again at Brighton Beach for the next day's service.
I don't recall whether they went to Coney or Brighton before the layup, but they did carry passengers on the trip south.
Gil Hodges lived on Bedford Ave near, I believe, Avenue M. His widow still lives there. When the Mets won it all in 1969, that block of Bedford Ave. was remaned Gil Hodges Place for one day. Pee Wee Reese may have lived on E. 18th St.; Duke Snider lived right around the corner.
The Dodger players were a part of the community.
You know all those ball players look alike when you can't read their numbers. ;-)
Which reminds me that the Duke got number 4 when he was with the Mets. Didn't they take it away from someone else? Maybe Ed Kranepool? I heard that the Duke wrote a book in which he said he never much cared for Brooklyn and that playing for the Dodgers was just a job. Now I cry whenever I see an avocado.
Duke wrote what amounted to be his autobiography a little over ten years ago. I read it, but don't recall seeing any sort of statement that would suggest he didn't care for Brooklyn. He WAS fond of Ebbets Field, though.
Here's the scoop about the Mets: when Duke was acquired from the Dodgers, his number 4 was being worn by Charley Neal, who wouldn't give it up. So Duke started the season wearing number 11, and got number 4 back when Neal was traded to Cincinnati after supposedly playing a prank on Casey Stengel while he was taking a nap.
Ed Kranepool, interestingly enough, wore number 21 during his first few years with the Mets, but gave it up when Warren Spahn joined the club in 1965. The Krane then took his more familiar number 7. Cleon Jones wound up wearing 21 when he came up for good.
The Gil Hodges Public School is on Ave.L and Bedford............
Isn't that an elementary school? I know there is a school named after him, and there may be a bowling alley as well.
Steve, Gil Hodges Lanes was originally located in the Georgetown section of Brooklyn (just north of Mill Basin) on Ralph Ave. near Ave. L. In the mid-80's it moved to its current location on Strickland Ave. in the heart of the well-to-do Mill Basin section.
Like all bowling lanes in the city and on the Island -- it is rarely filled to capacity, as it is becoming a dying past-time sport (just like the slot-car raceways -- remember those from the 60's?)
BTW, I saw a newspaper article recently that featured Mrs. Gil Hodges. Apparently she still lives in Brooklyn -- I believe in either Mill Basin or the adjacent Marine Park neighborhood. I should have clipped the article as I recall the subject was Mrs. Hodges attempts to finally 'officially' rename the Marine Park Bridge 'Gil Hodges Memorial Brigde'. I, and I'd assume others eroneously believed over the years that the bridge WAS named in honor of the '69 World Series Mets' Manager. (Part of that confusion is the fact that many professionally produced maps also refer to the Marine Park Bridge as the Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge).
Doug aka BMTman
There's a little league field named after Gil Hodges adjacent to Coney Island Yard on Shell Road, beside the Belt Pkwy.
--Mark
With all due respect, you've certainly earned the title of "Mr. Sea Beach". I feel sort of like Chris Berman on ESPN.
P. S. With a bit of luck, you'll get a train of slant R-40s on both lines; they're running on the N and Q now.
Steve: For you to call me Mr. Sea Beach is a real compliment. It has made my day. Really. I've always been fascinated with that train, and try to learn everything I can about it. My parents thought I was a nut when I was a kid because of my obesession with riding the Sea Beach. At 42nd Street, which was the terminal in Manhattan for the West End, Brighton Express, and Sea Beach, we sometimes had to wait for the third train if the first two weren't the Sea Beach. Oh well,
now you and everybody else knows. The thing I do know, however, is that there are those out there who know more about the Sea Beach than I do and I'm always on the prowl for more info on it. One day I hope it again crosses the Manhattan Bridge. That was one of my favorite parts of riding the Sea Beach
Hi, Fred. Glad to know I made your day. As you no doubt have noticed, we all have our favorite lines and cars and recollections and what not. I can relate to your insistence on taking a Sea Beach express. I used to wait for an A train at 42nd St., no matter how long it took, even though we were only going to 14th St. and change for the Canarsie. I absolutely, positively would not take an AA or E train, even if one of them came first. It didn't matter if it was an AA of R-32s or an E of slant R-40s (sorry, Wayne).
As I've said before, I will always have a soft spot for the N, since that was the very first subway train I ever rode on, 34 years ago, on July 21. BTW, did you know the Sea Beach line opened for subway service on June 22, 1915? The BMT standards made their debut on that line, along with the 4th Ave. line, which also opened that same day.
Anyway, the title is yours for the taking.
Steve B. I'll take the title with pleasure and maybe some other on line will refer to me by that title. It makes me feel good to know that I have a comrade-in-arms out there who once insisted on riding a certain train even if he had to wait. It used to drive my parents crazy. June 22, 1915? I'll remember that date. It also brings back to memory the year 1914. I now remember when I rode the Sea Beach after stopping at the 8th Avenue station, we descended underground and
upon entering the tunnel I saw 1914 carved at the top of the entrance.
Your note brought that back to memory. There is also the date of October 27, 1904. I believe the Sea Beach line is connected to that date or maybe the BMT. My brithday is October 27, so there is even more of an emotional pull because of that. One more thing. Please tell me what the Triplex was. I know it was a "D" type train and not a "B" type. But what made it a triplex. I await your answer---or anyone else who can help on that matter
October 27, 1904 is the day the first IRT subway opened. AFAIK nothing special happened on the Sea Beach then.
"D" types were an articulated train. This meant that three body units (thus triplex) were mounted on four trucks, with two of the trucks underneath the joints between the cars.
The BMT also had another train technically referred to as "triplex". the C-types. Kind of like Q's, but three elevated car bodies mounted on four trucks, instead of three separate cars.
The BMT liked articulateds, and produced others, both experimental and production, with from 3 to 5 sections per unit.
My favorite BMT line is the Sea Beach followed by the J. My personal favorite is the 4 due to my all-time favorite car--The Lo-V. I evenm have a Lo-v icon on my desktop! (Along with a slant 40, R38 and R16)thannks to Wayne!
Subway-Buff. You just found a lodge brother. Some are even calling me Mr. Sea Beach, but after reading your blurb, I may have to share that title. Tell me about that #4 model you have and whether they can be bought anywhere. Looking forward to hearing from you.
The models are just ICONS. If anyone wants the subway car ICONS, please e-mail me and I'll be glad to forward these icons as designed by Wayne, Mr. Slant 40. I have these icons:
2 styles of Lo-V, a slant 40, an R38 and an R16(in red).
Hey subway-buff: I would love an icon of a LoV Sea Beach with the #4 on it. That's the old designation. I don't believe a Slant 40 is with a #4. Naturally the model must be a "D" Triplex. My address is
330 Coyle Avenue, Arcadia California 91006. Let me know how much they cost and I'll take care of it.
The Triplexes served the Sea Beach and Brighton lines for most of their careers. They were the units with route and destination signs on the end bulkheads - the first New York subway cars to have this feature - and carried a numeral "4" when running on the Sea Beach. They are also referred to as the D-types; I personally refer to them as Triplexes.
The BMT standards were known as, among other names, AB units. More specifically, an A unit was a single car with motorman's cabs on each end and an active conductor's station in the center of the car. B units were 3-car sets consisting of three motorized units; the end units had a motorman's cab on each outer end (similar to the R-44 and R-46 A unit) and inactive conductor's stations while the middle unit had its cabs removed and the conductor's station was active. A BX unit had a motorless trailer in the middle; the trailer had a working conductor's station. On a 3-car set, the conductor was stationed in the middle car, which meant that on a 6-car train, he would be in either the second or fifth car. I rode on the standards for two years on the Canarsie line and cannot recall ever seeing the conductor by one of the button consoles. There was a BT unit as well; was that a two-car set?
The C units were not articulating units the way the Triplexes were. They were originally open platform el cars which were rebuilt into closed platform vehicles, then permanently coupled into 3-car sets. The Q cars were similarly configured.
< There was a BT unit as well; was that a two-car set? >
A BT unit was what was left over when the trailer unit of a BX was removed. I was told at the time that the "T" in BT stood for "Twin" as in "two" as it was a 2-car set.
< The C units were not articulating units the way the Triplexes were. They were originally open platform el cars which were rebuilt into closed platform vehicles, then permanently coupled into 3-car sets. The Q cars were similarly configured. >
You are correct--the C types were not true articulated in the sense that the D types were. The 3 bodies rode on 6 trucks, so that there was no single truck underneath an articulation joint.
However, they were permanently coupled with heavy drawbars and permanent corridors between the individual cars, as on the true articulateds. The kingpins of the trucks on adjacent units were very close--under 11 feet.
The Qs, OTOH, remained completely individual cars.
Thanks for the clarification. The BMT standards had other designations over the years, most notably an extra "A" while they were being retrofitted with MUDC to distinguish between those cars which had been reworked and those which hadn't been. Once the entire fleet was reworked, the extra "A" was dropped. Subway Cars of the BMT has detailed information about this.
There was also an "AX." These were 3 car units of 2700-2719 non-permanently coupled with trailers 4040-4049. Eventually, 2700-2919 were returned to A status and all trailers were coupled with the 2400 series.
This was important to people who had the Silver Leaf HO brass cars, which were deck roof only, who wanted to make up prototypical units with trailers.
I seem to recall a BMT subway car where the conductor's controls were visible on the inside wall of the car, not in a cab---kind of like push buttons---were they triplexes or what?
Triplexes and, IIRC, Q-types had inside as well as outside controls of similar type.
The BMT Standards had operating controls between the doors. In later years they weren't used as much, but for a kid riding on the Canarsie line back in the late 60s, those buttons were fun to push, even if they didn't do anything.
Where can I find information about upcoming Fantrips, assuming these haven't been scrapped? Is information posted here by any chance?
Yes, fan trips are usually talked about here (i hesitate to say "announced" because this site is not the official site of any of the organizations which coordinate fan trips). I try to post them in the Upcoming Events calendar as well.
Dave: Until I got my bearings and got online, I wrote to you in a totally confused state concerning fan trips. I saw pictures of them taken in the 1970's with their old number configurations and ate my heart out. I didn't know they existed and now I haven't heard of any concerning the New York subway. I have to feel there are others like me who would love to go down memory lane on a fan trip. I believe you would be doing a lot of us a favor if you keep us posted any way you can. My antenna is out there for any word of such a trip. Until next time....Fred the Sea Beach Man
Well you've probably seen it but again, for those who haven't, there's an Upcoming Events Calendar that I maintain. If I hear of something that I think is relevant to the interests of this web site I'll post it in there.
-Dave
Besides the trips done by the TA Museum & NY Div of ERA several of us subway buffs are thinking about more "Field Trips".
In the works to some extent are:
- Staten Island ... maybe on a weekend, by Hank and others
- Brooklyn waterfront ... walking or via cars, by Doug
- "Beaches", i.e. Rockaways & Long Beach ... would include B-U-S to Long Beach and Nathan's of Oceanside (Motorcycle or old car night), by Peggy & yours truely ... probally August, as I need to do a little pre-trip research, i.e. how much of a stroll to Boardwalk & Italian Ice stands at Long Beach ... will Burger King let you change if you buy something ?
Mr t__:^)
Thurston----If you are planning something like this, you mentioned August. That would be great. I'm going to be in Ny from August 6-19 and would love to be involved in something of this order. Do what you can and keep me posted. It's a great idea.
Also note that the Transit Museum, which has sponsored most of the Museum fantrips over the past few years, has been VERY quiet on this one in 1999. There haven't been ANY fantrips at all this year, and there's nothing planned through the summer at least.
The Lo-V fantrip run late in the summer the past three years is sponsored by a different organization, and the last info I have (May of this year) is even THAT trip isn't a sure thing this year.
--Mark
Yeah, the TA museum is pretty pathetic when it comes to organizing fan trips.
The best ones so far as 1999 are the fan-organized ones, like Peggy Darlington's informative PATH/Newark Subway trip of last month.
Keep you eyes on SubTalk for further developments on upcoming fan-run trips and tours.
Doug aka BMTman
Looks like it's official - PATCO fares will be going up. The DRPA blessed it last week. No date has been given for the increase, which will involve three steps apparently to occur on an annual basis. The first step, which will happen this year, will see the highest fare (end to end) going up by 25 cents. Of course, this is still a bargain and one must keep in mind that the fares have been at their current level since 1983. Where else in transit has this happened? In 1983, for comparison purposes, SEPTA fares were 85 cents. Now the base fare is $1.60.
Bob--
Word I'm getting is that the fares could be increased sometime this month. It would happen on a Saturday, to give people enough "adjustment time" before the next weekday.
Michael
I haven't heard. Most of the press is going toward the toll increase on DRPA's four bridges, and the commitment here is that the tolls won't increase before Labor Day. There's a tie to the introduction of EZ Pass on the bridges also, which has been announced as "coming soon" for the past year but still not here. The only comment I heard on PATCO was that it wouldn't happen this summer. There are always complicated things to work out, even on a fully computerized system (go figure!), with the fare cards, etc. Also, the parking lot fee is going up, and this will have to be dealt with. I'll keep the group posted.
It would make sense to go into effect on a Sunday, which would affect the fewest riders and give some time for all the tweaking, etc needed.
What will they do for holders of the current tickets- will they be valid or will they be a rememberance of the past or will they be accepted for trade in (with the difference in cost)
Good question! Since it's been so long since the last fare increase, who remembers? My recollection is that the farecards are valid until they are used. I don't think this is well publicized (due to possible hoarding). I do know that I have a 10-ride ticket I bought in 1978 and it still has 2 rides left on it. It had 3 until '83 when I used one (the last time I used it). We'll see what the local press says once the effective date of the increase is announced.
I was planning on riding the 7:52pm out of MetroPark. It showed up at 8:30pm and could not get up to speed. It was canceled at rahway. First they told us to walk forward then it was walk back sicne they "ran long".
We had to wait 10 minutes for a train coming from long Branch which would be coming in on LOW PLATFORM since our B/O train was blocking the high platform (just outside the the NY end of the station). Add to that the normal crowd at Rahway. The train arrives and the crew could not get the trapdoor open so only ONE door was open to board that train. The conditions turned into a mob scene with people being unable to exit the train and some actually trying to climb the train to enter between cars. We left Rahway at 9:20pm and a wall to wall mob was still at the station. We arrived at NY Penn 90 minutes late!
The crew should have radioed for the transit police when they knew they had to dump the train at Rahway. Several conductors from NJT valiantly tried to keep order but had to almost literally flee for their lives.
I realize trains break down but NJT has no excuse for the near riot at Rahway- especially on holidays with special events they will have heavy riderhip and should have transit police patrols in kley locations ready to respond to B/O trains. They should monitor the trains and respond immediately to aid a B/O train. Yes- I am e-mailing NJT.
The last few evenings I have noticed several linked trains running ont the 6- including 1756-1760, 1711-1715 among others. I have been lucky enough to leave Astor Place when one one these arrived and took the opportunity to walk to another car and they do appear to be linked.
I have also noticed one R62(a) car 1760 I think with a medium gray with brown and black "pebbling" terrazo look floor- it is in several panels with black seams running teransverse. Near the cab ends/end storm doors, the floor is in three sections. From that one car's looks I rank this new floor as my favorite followed by B Division's Black floor cars.
Pelham Bay Dave- are they being linked? what about the new floors?
I have also noticed these "black" floors on the R68A's that run on the B line. They certainly look better, and cut down on the "glare" that the shiny stainless steel interiors produce. They also make the floors look cleaner. I wonder why only a few cars have them.
Another oddity is that some R62's on the #4 do not have those annoyingly small "segmented" seats, but simply 3 sections forming one, long bench. I wish all R62's were fitted with these, as those segmented seats are WAY to small.
I'm not sure which seats you are specifically referring to, but I have a real problem with any of the molded seats - they just aren't big enough for most adults. With all due respect to the women who frequent this board, they were either designed by (1) an anorexic female, (2) someone with a passionate hatred of anyone over 12 years old, or (3) someone who doesn't have to ride the subway and therefore doesn't care. As a middle-aged male who is somewhat broad of beam - like many folks my age - I simply don't fit. For that matter, my younger son - 13 years old, almost 6 feet tall and still growing - doesn't fit well either, and his weight, unlike mine, is reasonably proportionate to his height.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They were designed to the "specifications" of the "average" Japanese person's frame and were ridiculed by the public and the press when the MTA first took delivery of the cars.
--Mark
I've heard a much different theory: The TA specified a certain number of seats in the car that was nearly impossible to attain, so the seat width was reduced by 3/4" to increase seated capacity.
-Hank
Either way, the responsibility rests with the MTA or TA official(s) -- none of whom ride in the subway since they all have limos -- who either accepted cars with such specs or imposed requirements which made such seats inevitable. Maybe we should change the specs for officials.
The cars you're referring to are 1586-1591 (6 cars, which means that one is part of a different 5-car set!). The cars were delivered in 1985 with these seats as a test, after people complained that the bucket seats didn't offer enough room.
The R-142/R-142A cars will come in with bench-style seating, closer in shape to the above-mentioned seats than to bucket seats.
David
[Another oddity is that some R62's on the #4 do not have those annoyingly small "segmented" seats, but simply 3 sections forming one, long bench. I wish all R62's were fitted with these, as those segmented seats are WAY to small.]
NO ! The floor was grey in the Pelham Car that I saw- I think it was 1760 or 1670- not a typo but I did not have a pad of paper handy.
Does that mean that there wont be seats like the R110A?
Yes Pelham has started linking back in October. I believe 1691-1695 was one of the First. Also car 1696-1700 is also linked.
Hey Pelham Bay Dave, How come after R62 #1730's and up doesn't have linked together? All i see it full Width cars on 1, 5, 6, and 0 cars. They should have done all the cars by now. They having problem with the Cars?
Peace Out
"Meaney"
I have noticed some trains with a linked 5 car set and 5 single cars.
ex:1696-1697-1698-1699-1700, 1800-1813-1815-1820-1812
(the second set is just made up numbers). I also have noticed that sometimes in the unlinked half there are two adjacent numbers such as 1900-1901 (made up numbers).
At some point, will all the Pelham silverbirds be linked or are they(the big wigs at Jay Street) saving some as singles for the 3 and the Times Square Shuttle?
Hi Folks, ok lets admit that the ridership has increased on the # 7 line. But TAKE OFF THE FAN CARS!!!!!!!! So what, 1 less car.But also 10 FULLY air coditioned cars!!!!!!!! whats the problem? Does the MTA want people to pass out and get very sick in the fan cars? It sure looks that way. The next couple of days are saying 100-105 degrees!!!! lets wake up and smell the coffee!!!!!!!!!!!!!take off those damn fan cars !!!!!! Please e mail me if you agree.
Because there are no air-conditioning on the R33S cars, #7
trains actually do consist of 10 R36 cars during summer.
Chaohwa
Yes this was true in the past, but like I posted in another thread, they did not remove the cars in 1998 or again this year, citing too much ridership.
It would be interesting to see if, during the past 2 days (Mon & Tues 7/5 & 7/6), if the 10 cars with A/C were crowded with an relatively empty R33S in the consist.
--Mark
The TA used to do that, but they got criticized rather strongly in the press. You say "So What", but the press ans TV stations didn't feel that way. There are people (myself excluded) who actually like it hot and dislike air conditioning! Some people actually DO ride in the single car!
Yeah -- like me.
I don't mind the lack of AC and the fans and open doors and windows are good enough compensation for riding in an empty or near-empty car, where I actually don't have to stand.
Everyone who uses that line knows which cars to avoid (third car from the Queens end). And how is it any different from a car with defective A/C?
And how do you think people were able to deal with the heat before the mid 70's, when cars equipped with A/C were just beginning to become a rule, rather than an exception?
-Hank
My own feeling is that the R-33 Corona cars are quite different from a hot car due to defective HVAC. The R-33s have 3 or 4 fans (I forget which). A standard A/C car has just 2 blowers. The blowers do not move the car air as efficiently as the fans. In addition, a hot car might just be caused by an open blower motor. Finally, the HVAC vents are far more restrictive to air flow that the fan louvers. If I had a choice, give me a fan car.
By the way Hank, I have the info you asked for but the E-mail keeps coming back. Contact me......
Four fans.
Wait up! In the 1970's there were fewer cars with A/C so the system was quite cooler. Fans for the most part with hooked storm doors weren't that bad.
A/C is a double edged sword. You get more comfortable trains at the price of unbearable stations. I'm not sure it's worth it. Whenever the power goes off or there's an evacuation, inevitably someone faints or has chest pains from the 120 degree temprature and 100% humidity.
so far all the`R-46's I have had on the F this week are OK. Thanks Steve. Tell the Car Inspectors good work.
I'll take hot stations as the price for A/C in the cars. Some day they'll put A/C in the stations. Of course, then you won't be able to walk on the sidewalks near the stations while the A/C is running. Except, of course for the elevated stations. I'm not sure if they will be be able to put A/C in them. On the other hand, how much hotter does an elevated station get because of A/C on the trains?
Thanks Erik. So far this season, we've been running at 96% cars with working HVAC. If anyone finds a hot one, E-mail me the car # and it'll be off the road that day for repairs.
If too many people are in one car then you wont feel the air anyway so what difference does it make?
You know, back in the 50's and 60's we didn't have air conditioning in the New york subway. And you didn't see people passing out in the heat either.
The buses weren't air conditioned either......
But the stations and tunnels weren't as hot as they are now, with almost every single subway car being AC equipped. Heat, like all energy, cannot be created or destroyed. AC works not by getting rid of heat, but drawing it from the inside of a subway car and blowing it outside the car. That heat has to go somewhere, and that's why some stations feel like furnaces from hell.
If someone could come up with an AC system that would store heat for discarding at a later, more convienent time, rather than just depositing outside of a car, then this problem could be solved.
It is not true that "heat, like all energy, cannot be created or destroyed." While it is true that the total amount of energy is constant (except for nuclear fusion and fission, in both of which cases matter is converted into energy), energy can be changed from one form into another. For example, moving trains are stopped by converting their kinetic energy into heat. (Ask anyone who has had to get close to the brakes on a train or automobile or truck or bus or airplane, just after the brakes have been used.) As another example, most electricity (but not hydro-electricity) is generated by turning heat into kinetic energy using a turbine. The problem is NOT that heat cannot be destroyed. The problem is that no has brought to the market a practical device for converting the heat being thrown off by the A/C unit on a train into a more useful form of energy, such as light or electricity or kinetic energy.
I was just enjoying your pictures once again, that are posted at this site. I noticed something that I had not noticed before. Is the anti-climber missing from the one end of gate car #1227? I am surprised that I didn't see this earlier.
Karl B
Karl,
A good observation! You know, I was just looking over the photo and I realized that yes, 1227 is missing an anticlimber. Why???? I don't really know why this is the case, but let me make a brief point.
Early el cars, as well as some subway cars did not have anticlimbers. The anticlimber only cam later. Those folks in the transit companies must have gotten tired of seeing numerous accidents because there was no protection on the ends of the el/subway cars. Bad accidents really did occur, when you consider that in the early days of transit, cars were made of wood. Cars that telescoped into each other sustained severe damage as a result.
The invention of the anticlimber came, I belief shortly after the turn of the century. With the anticlimber, accidents were as severe as they were before (at least in some cases). The purpose of the anticlimber is to keep the force of an accident to the strongest part of the car which happens to be the steel frame. Again I say, when cars collided with one another, the brunt of the impact was kept at the lower portion of the car in question.
I honestly don't know why 1227's anticlimber is missing. Maybe Jeff H. knows, since he's more familiar with the equipment. She's going to need some cosmetic work, eventually. 659 will also get some degree of work. 1349, our open convertible, will be in the shop at the end of the month to receive necessary repairs. It is my sincerest hope that 1227's comopanions will go out on the road at some future time.
Another note: I don't believe 1227 was delivered to the BRT with anticlimbers. Anticlimbers were added sometime later.
Aside from this let me briefly address to you an issue I made about the subway car project I engaged in from an earlier post. I, in no way, have given up on the project as I explained to fellow SubTalker Thurston. If anything, I'm more determined to continue on with the project and complete it regardless of any help received. The time I wrote that post, I was having a sleepless night after being in Branford for much of the day. Personal issues also affected my thinking. A colleague made me see things from a realistic perspective. What you see is what you get. I'm ambitious and I'd like to do things from an optimistic point of view. Restoring a car to an original look might sound easy, but in essence is much harder. But we can't always get what we want. I'd buy more subway cars, fix up the entire museum line and who knows what else I might do!
Unfortunately, the time and money to spend on materials aren't there at this point. There are restrictions, as you have to make do with what you have. Anything can happen though! By engaging in this project, I have to say that I'm more appreciative of history....
Thanks,
Stef
The purpose of the anti-climber, for Constantine and others'
benefit, is to prevent cars from climbing on top of each other
in a collision, and thus crushing the unlucky passengers in
the bottom car.
1227 had two styles of anti-climber in its service career.
The earlier variety was narrow, extending perhaps 2 feet on
either side of the coupler. In the 1920s, when the poles and
trapdoor steps were removed, the anti-climbers were upgraded
to a wider type that covers about 3/4 of the end beam.
The anti-climbers were removed from 1227 quite a few years ago
as part of a rebuilding effort for one of the end platforms.
That project was not completed and the platform was re-assembled
"temporarily" so the car could carry visitors. The anti-climbers
were not re-installed, but they will be eventually.
Stef & Jeff H
Thanks for the replies! Don't get me wrong, I was not complaining, it was an observation. I have looked at #1227 so often and just all of a sudden I realized that only one end of the car had an anti-climber. The fact that those four cars still exist is a tribute to guys like you. I just wish I was closer and had better health so I could be helping you. When I lived in the city those gate cars were all that mattered to me in transit. I guess I wasn't a transit fan but a gate car fan. I sure wish one of the 900's had been saved but I am thankful that a 600, 1200, and a pair of 1300's still exist.
I will be away from the site for some days and hope I can catch up when I return.
Keep up the good work!
Karl B
Don't forget elevated car from Kings County, number 197 which is from 1888, the oldest of the BRT/BMT fleet. This car dates back to the days of steam on the els!!!! Now, if only we had a Forney....
Cheers,
Constantine
Well, there is the Forney Railroad Museum in Denver. They're in the process of moving to a new facility, and some of the museum rolling stock is being stored on a track adjacent to I-25. There's a Union Pacific 4-6-6-4 Challenger, along with a graffiti-covered passenger coach.
You said,"Don't forget elevated car from Kings County, number 197 which is from 1888, the oldest of the BRT/BMT fleet. This car dates back to the days of steam on the els!!!! Now, if only we had a Forney...."
Are there any recent pictures of 197 or either of the two 1300's? I know ther is a 30 year old picture of 659 at this site and much more recent pictures of 1227.
Karl B
Sorry, but there doesn't seem to be anything recent on 197 or the two 1300s.
Just so you know, 1362 is sitting outside the shop under a large tarp to protect if from the elements. 1349 is inside one of the barns and will be making her way to the shop at the end of the month. Maybe then, I can get a picture!!!!!
I'm going to talk to Jeff H. about looking through the Barns for those rarely seen elevated cars. I haven't seen 197 or 1349.
-Stef
If 1349 will be making her way to the shop, I hope that means for restoration. I am assuming if this is true that she will be painted the same color as 1227 and the three re-rebuilts that are in the transit museum.
1349 was one of the six cars on the "Last Lex" on Oct 13th, 1950, and if I remember correctly, had been repainted in the late 1940's in green (a very attractive color until weathered). I guess there's not much chance of that color or time period being recreated.
Good Luck, and thanks for the information
Karl B
One of our elevated car buffs will be spending an entire week in the shop with 1349. Restoration? You bet! The color of the car is unknown to me, but it could be painted to match 1227. Again, Jeff H. would know more about it.
-Stef
1349 is on Track 62, just behind the North Shore Car, which is behind 1227 and 3662.
197 is in barn 7, I think -- the same barn as 659, and, I think the bus.
Oh....this thread is still alive :)
Let's see... BU car 1349 is coming into the car shop at the
end of July. The objective is to fabricate and install the
wooden end beam. The long-term restoration plan for the car
is to depict it as it ended sevice in the 1950s, in green.
This primarily is dictated by the motor truck, which was changed
shortly before the car's retirement. There is still a lot of
mechanical work, including heavy work on the wheels and trucks,
before this car can carry passengers.
BU 659 is still in barn 4 (not 7, SteveK,....are you crazy, an
el car in Fort ConnCo?). While I have some designs on making this
car usable as a control trailer (the motors are damaged beyond
economical repair), there is a significant amount of body work
to be done. K.C. E RR #197, a trailer, is on the same track and
in about the same body condition.
Yeah, this thread is still alive.... What's the matter with that? Karl B was inquiring into the condition of each of the el cars as well as any possible pictures that might be out there.
Thank you for the info. I hope one of these days you might take the time to let me into the barns other than 1,3, and 5 to observe the equipment.
Perhaps if I'm not working on 6688 while 1349 is taking the shop space, I'll assist the gentleman working on the el car.
-Stef
That is great news, at least for me. I think those green paint jobs in the 1940's were what got me started to becoming a transit fan.
Thanks so much for making my day.
Karl B
"Now, if only we had a Forney...."
I think that CTA still has one of its old locomotives from the Lake Street L, and I think it's a Forney. They brought it (and some other L, streetcar, and bus equipment) out in Daley Plaza for a "50 Years of CTA" display a couple of years ago. It could be they borrowed it from someone else, and I don't know if it runs because it was just sitting on a flatbed in Washington Street in front of Daley Plaza.
But maybe CTA could work something out with NYCTA?
I don't know if a CTA locomotive has anything to do with NYCT, and I would probably say no. But if the locomotive is similar in design, then it might be possible for NYCT to look into displaying it in their Museum if someone's willing to go with it.
Are you sure it was a Forney? I didn't think that there were any left over here in the states. Last I heard, there were three Forneys in not so great condition up in Alsaka (probably not usable).
The question I pose here is does anyone know here on the site if there are any former NYC Forneys still running around in any location? South America comes to mind. It seems like they use any old equipment that they acquire forever down there.
Hi,
Last Wednesday I went to NYC to take photos on the subway. I observed an R32 train on the G line and at least 2 R46 trains on the E line.
Usually G trains are R46 trains and E trains are R32 trains. I am wondering why in several instances some R32s move to the G line and some R46s run on the E line.
Chaohwa
If you see one again, try and get the car numbers so I can check it against my R32 Census to see where it came from.
Thanks,
Wayne
According to my slides, that R32 G train consisted of:
3931-3930-????-????-????-????-????-????-3350-3351
3931 was Queens-bound and 3351 was Brooklyn-bound. I don't record the middle six cars.
Chaohwa
That is correct. That train was given back to the E was laid up all holiday weekend in the station at Union Tkpe on track D4.
I saw 3350 last fall at 34th St. as part of an E train. The significance is that 3350 is the first number in the R-32 series. OK, 3348 doesn't count because that's not its original number.
Thanks - those four were all previously sighted on the E line and have now been marked as G, at least until they're resighted elsewhere. They are probably all Steve's charges, from Jamaica Yard.
Wayne
If you see R-32s on the G line, they are from the Jamaica Fleet only.
What I find so unusual about the G train is that the R32's are four car trainsets and when the train is made up in the yard, it is usually six cars. Amazing.
I think you have your 'R's and 'G's mixed up. Gs are usually made up of R-46s. They are ususlly in 4 car consists. In fact there are 181 ABBA units, 13 AA units and 1 AB unit. The Gs are usually a 4-car piece with a 2 car piece. If we have a shortage of 2 car pieces, we use 10 R-32s in stead. R-32s are always 2 car units.
The R32's are married pairs.
The R46's normally on the G are four car sets except for some of them which are two car sets. See the R46 Roster for details.
And the light-blue "E" boxes next to the reported numbers bear that fact out.
Wayne
R46 G trains normally run 6 cars: a 4 car set and a 2 car set of A cars. Facing Smith 9 St. it is AAABBA. If I remember correctly, there are only 2 sets of spare AA cars, sooooo, sometimes they are short. Because a G motorman in non OPTO service is disciplined to make 8 car stops, it would be confusing and a mistake possible if he had a standard R46 of ABBAABBA. So with car shortages an R32 will automatically tell him to stop at the 10 and the conductor can point to his board. As far as the E: yes there are varying numbers of R46 cars present. Car assignments should not be viewed by subtalkers as etched in stone. Any car class can be on a given line from the same yard supplying the equipment. You will sometimes see an R32 on the R for example. This time of year with air conditioning straining the cars to the max, deviations from car assignments are probable. If the R needs a train at X o'clock and no R46 is availiable, an R32 will be assigned. If the E needs a train at Y o'clock and an R32 is not availiable, then an R46 will be assigned.
That's part of what makes maintaining my R32 Census sheet so much fun, changing the colored cells from this line to that line and updating the cell comment regarding the date of change
Wayne
I'm just back from a long weekend in Montreal. It was "only" 90 degrees there! I took a number of pictures of the Metro, and when they're back I'll scan them and send them to Dave to post. A few quick observations about the system:
750 V/3rd rail traction, with the famous "steel wheel plus rubber tire" running.
Four lines, identified simultaneously by color codes, numbers, and terminal.
NO AIR CONDITIONING! (True, most days in Montreal are not scortching. But when it's hot... it's hot!)
The stations are clean, bright, and spacious.
Trains are OPTO, with ATO.
The fare is C$1.90 (about US$1.35). A one-day pass is available for C$5 (US$3.5) and three-day pass for C$12 (US$8.40).
Speed is good, including uphill. The 4-minute run from Berri-UQAM to Ille St. Helene is especially fun.
I found the system's strategy for the "emergency cord" interesting. The sign says that if you pull it (it's actually a red T-handle) when the train is stopped in a station, it will stay there. If you pull it when the train is in motion, it will continue on to the next station, then stay there. That's a great way to keep trains from stalling BIE between stations -- and possibly increasing emergency aide response time. I wonder if NYC has thought of that?
Is the Montreal Metro automated in any way? From the last time I was there (many years ago) I don't think it is. This would seem to imply one of two things:
- The train is automated and knows not to stop until the next station
- The T/O receives indication that the cord is pulled and stops & stays at the next station.
Do you have any idea which one it is?
The NYCT emergency brake application is immediate when the cord is pulled.
It's interesting that Montreal's Metro has no A/C but Toronto's does.
--Mark
London has the same system on all lines, so there is no need for ATO in order for this to work. Any fellow London experts know how the system is works here precisely, and whether it even applies to 1962 Northern Line stock?
Question regarding the original post:
I've seen contributors mention "BIE" when referring to an unscheduled stop. May I ask, just what do those letters stand for?
Thanks!
BIE = Brakes In Emergency
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember that long run when heading out to Expo 67; if I recall I counted 93 fluorescent lights between the two stations. I would imagine there must be second-generation rolling stock on the Metro now. One feature I remember in particular is the bell-like "ding" sound right after the doors closed. London's District Line trains did the same thing in 1978.
The heat in Montreal's Metro has been a long-standing problem. It wasn't long before some of the door windows were replaced with screens of stiff wire mesh to provide some degree of ventilation.
I visited Montreal 5 years ago and the rolling stock was a combination of original equipment (1966-67 vintage) plus some from 1978-79. It was hard to tell them apart, as I recall.
When I was there it was quite hot but the stations seemed cool, perhaps because they are so deep plus the "piston" action of trains travelling through tunnels which creates breezes. The cars, on the other hand, did not fare as well, and were uncomfortably warm. The friction of rubber tires doesn't help this situation at all.
Last week, I was on the BMT N train heading for Manhattan, at
18th Avenue, the train ahead of me had braking troubles, and caused
my train to be stalled at 20th Avenue. I was surprised that they used
the Sea Beach Express Tracks, by running the Manhattan-bound N trains
and the rerouted Manhattan-bound B trains like the old NX train in
1967. I thought the Express tracks are still being signaled at are
not ready yet. I'm surprised they were ready for emergency express
service. If they ran the B and N as the old NX, where did they switch
over to the express tracks?
James S. Li
Without a track map in front of me, I can't say for sure, but the express tracks merge with the local tracks before the tunnel portal at 4th Ave. and before 86th St. on the other end. Chances are there are crossover switches along the line as well.
As for signalling, trains running express on the Sea Beach operate in an absolute block, meaning only one train at a time along the entire nonstop stretch.
I have some 100 copies of the first PATH timetable to WTC, PATH service change to WTC, and a small PATH booklet about the new WTC station to give away. All I ask for is $1.00 to cover postage and the medium size envelope I will use for mailing to any addressee on sub-talk.
My address is
Philip Hom
65 Dorothy Lane
Stafford, VA 22554
Thanks
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
I almost forgot.... One set per sub-talk member...
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Last week I was the IRT Penn Station and it was hot. I know it is baking right now. What is the hottest station in your opinion?
Of the 4 stations I was in today, it felt like Union Sq. was the hottest. Here's what the news is saying:
New York City is even hotter underground.
The New York Post says 100-degree weather is turning subway stations into underground furnaces. Some of the busiest stations are hotter than it is outside. Yesterday felt like 112 degrees when the humidity and the temperature were taken together. But the Post says subway riders felt 125-degree heat on the Number Seven train platform at the Fifth Avenue station. The heat index had the Union Square station at 117 degrees -- even with ceiling fans.
The platform for the One and Nine trains at the Times Square station was 115 degrees on the heat index. Grand Central station was a cool 110 degrees. And it could get worse today. Subway stations will be more crowded than they were yesterday because people are going back to work after the long holiday weekend and there will be more trains.
From experience, I will say the absolute worst is South Ferry. Not only is it hot, but they actually INCREASE the ambient humidity with those water sprayers they use to lubricate the rails on the loop.
A station that is just plain hot is 168st on the 1/9. Basically, it's like an ezbake oven.
-Hank
I'll second the motion for 168th and Bway on the 1/9. I was on a Bronx-bound 1 yesterday, when the doors opened at 168, it was almost as though the heat from the station attacked those of inside the train and sucked the cool air out of the train in less than 2 seconds.
West 4th Street lower level (B/D/F/Q) is absolutely oppressive in the summer. It's a full THREE STORIES underground separated by a mezzanine, the A/C/E tracks and another mezzanine.
5th Avenue/53rd lower level (Queens-bound) has only one track and is below the Manhattan-bound/Downtown tracks which are already at the bottom of a very long escalator.
72nd/Broadway is very cramped, what with no mezzanine and extremely narrow stairways. There's no place for the hot air to go-except on us!
Conversely, Lexington/60th is usually very comfortable, as it was this past Sunday night. The wind must blow through the river tunnel, with help from the moving trains.
Monday, July 5th The Electric Railroaders Association finished its three day convention in Philadelphia with a fantrip on the Market-Frankford line which was also a farewell trip to the almond joy cars which have been in service on this line since 1960. With almost enough new cars to make all service it appears that their retirement is immenent. there are only five sets of these cars in rush hour service. It doesn't appear likely that these cars will survive the summer.
To add, The fantrip consisted of cars:
702-701,811-812,711-712. Car 702 was the lead car in both directions (We looped at Bridge Street, Frankford Terminal)
with the retirement of the "Almond Joys", yet another chapter in philadelphia's rail history comes to a close...i can remember riding the "market Frankford" line many times while railfanning in Philadelphia. i always enjoyed riding these cars, as they sounded similar to the NYCTAs R-32 fleet. the early 1990s was a great time to railfan in Philadelphia; there was a lot of variety to be found there.from the aformentioned Almond Joys, to the citys famed PCC fleet there were a lot of photographic opportunities. lets not forget the "Heavy Rail" division which had ex Reading "Blueliners" and the ex P.R.R. "Pioneer 3s". also lets not forget the famous Bullets and the last "Stratford Car",#162 running out their last days on the "Norristown High Speed Line".fortunatly, their was a group which saw fit to sponsor several trips on most of these classes of equipment, the Philadelphia Chapter of the N.R.H.S. including several farewell trips. the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders Association also sponsored several trips as well. sadly, now all of this equipment is now retired, but the memories live on! if you are interested in seeing some of the photos from this interesting time in history, you are welcome to see the next Urban Transit Club meeting, which will be on July 24th, 1999 at the Masonic Hall,on west 23rd Street,as i will be doing the show!!! hope to see you all there!!!
with the retirement of the "Almond Joys", yet another chapter in philadelphia's rail history comes to a close...i can remember riding the "market Frankford" line many times while railfanning in Philadelphia. i always enjoyed riding these cars, as they sounded similar to the NYCTAs R-32 fleet. the early 1990s was a great time to railfan in Philadelphia; there was a lot of variety to be found there.from the aformentioned Almond Joys, to the citys famed PCC fleet there were a lot of photographic opportunities. lets not forget the "Heavy Rail" division which had ex Reading "Blueliners" and the ex P.R.R. "Pioneer 3s". also lets not forget the famous Bullets and the last "Stratford Car",#162 running out their last days on the "Norristown High Speed Line".fortunatly, their was a group which saw fit to sponsor several trips on most of these classes of equipment, the Philadelphia Chapter of the N.R.H.S. including several farewell trips. the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders Association also sponsored several trips as well. sadly, now all of this equipment is now retired, but the memories live on! if you are interested in seeing some of the photos from this interesting time in history, you are welcome to see the next Urban Transit Club meeting, which will be on July 24th, 1999 at the Masonic Hall,on west 23rd Street,as i will be doing the show!!! hope to see you all there!!!
I heard something about GCT. Someone said that they used water pumped in from the east river circulate it through pipes located in the station then use fans to blow the cool air around. It's like A/C but without the freon. Does anyone know about this? If the NYCTA can do this many people would sure be happy.
What they might have been referring to is a "chilled water" system that used East River water for cooling (though I'd think that would be a waste) Chilled water system *do* use freon. Basically, you have your condenser in water, and your evaporator in water. The water from the condener hoes to whatever you use as a heat sink (normally a cooling tower), the water from the evap goes to pipeing around the area that attaches to radiators, much like a conventional hot water heating system does. That's what those "chilled water supply" and "chilled water return" pipes you see in Penn station are for. It's a nice system, in that you get air conditioning everywhere, without circulating Freon (A difficult thing to do, never mind the CFC issues). The freon only circulates between the evaporator, and the condenser (the water and freon are physically seperate from each other). The system is much like a conventional A/C, only water is used for cooling, not air.
I doubt that, without the assistance of a mechanical cooling system, the East river water is cool enough to do much. Anyway, even if it were close - stick in the A/C into the system, and get even better results. Also realize that circulating (fairly) dirty water in piping everywhere is kind of a no-no...
I looked it up, and apparently the average surface temp. of water off the Battery in August is 74 degrees. Yup, that is probably a little too warm to help much, though in a 100 degree station (not unrealistic) could probably be cooled to 90 or so using such a system. That is a start, but would probably not be the sort of standard we should hope for! (Also, it would take out very little humidity).
On the other hand, the temperature of the water a few meters down is probably a lot lower. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the temp. of the water is deep in the east river. However, there are systems that use lake water to cool buildings - it can be done. It saves a huge amount of energy - air conditioning uses tons and tons of electricity. On the other hand, warming up the water can have ecological side effects which are bad.
I think you can also save a lot of energy using river (or whatever) water to cool the condenser. It takes a lot less energy to compress 70 degree freon than it takes to compress 100 degree freon. So maybe that is what they are doing.
Sorry to go off topic! I'm just glad to read that maybe there will, someday, be some sort of AC in NY subway stations! Normally, I think its basically a waste of energy, but not in this case. As a side note, AC is a technology that may and should change a LOT in the next few years, leading to potentially HUGE energy savings.
Certainly no more off topic than discussing Nathan's cheese fries.
This system was used briefly at Brooklyn Bridge before the
dual contracts, using East River water to provide the cooling.
I never heard of the system in use at either of the Grand Central
subway stations.
Jeff, where's my Signal Control Line Drawings?
A mechanical cooling system using chilled water and fans is being installed in the Grand Central IRT station as part of its' renovation.
The pipes are in place at the roof. Since the work is so far behind schedule, I don't think it will help any one this year.
Hello,
I'd like to know from those who have been to the Smith and 9th street station, how long does it take to go from the station down to the ground?
- Jose
Do you mean by taking the train, walking down the stairs, or.... ???
I think Jose means that how much time it takes to walk from the platform to the street.
Although I stay on the Smith-9 Streets platform, I never go down to the streets. The Smith-9 Streets station is a great place to take pictures!
Chaohwa
Once again I'm upstaged by Todd's quick wit and sense of humor. I can't tell you about the stairs but if you jump, it'll take you 3.31 seconds give or take a few hundreths.
Don't forget to factor in the wind. On a windy day it may take almost second longer to hit the grount. Also, should you land in a truck that goes all the way to Pittsburg, would the additional time count?
The wind would only affect the time if there was an updraft. Adding a horizontal vector does not reduce the vertical vector. The object still falls in accordance with the formula distance=(1/2)g times the square of the time, adjusted for air resistance. I'm assuming the slight increase in total velocity from falling at an angle in a wind would not materially increase the air resistance over the resistance caused by fall straight down.
Even stepping off the platform edge will get you to the ground slightly faster. If you really are jumping, however, you must factor your originally downward velocity into the acceleration equations.
By the stairs, or the QUICK way?
By the stairs, about 3-5 minutes, if you use the escalator. I'm sure someone COULD make it down all the way in under a minute, but they'd be pretty out of breath. Race you any time.
Rolling down the stairs is an option, but could be quite painful.
Then, there's the QUICK way. That depends on how aerodynamic you are. :)
-Hank (tongue planted firmly)
I'll have to try racing down the steps at Smith-9th sometime. Living a mile above sea level, your body adjusts to the lower oxygen level, so when you find yourself at sea level, you don't get winded.
You could also do what some guy did at the Port Authority Bus Terminal. There is, or was, an escalator at the southwest corner from the upper bus level to what I'll call the mezzanine; it's one flight up from the main concourse. Anyway, we had just gotten off our bus one Saturday morning and were headed for the subway when this guy jumped in front of me on that escalator, grabbed hold of the handrail, and proceeded to slide HEAD FIRST all the way down to the bottom. It took him no more than five seconds. I'd like to see Mary Poppins try that!
On the other hand, if you'd like to try doing a high dive/jackknife/cannon ball/belly flop (take your pick) into the Gowanus Canal...
And dissolve. You can't swim in that sesspool!
Isnt the Gowanus Canal making a come back? Arent small fishes supposed to enter the water?
It certainly can't be any worse than the Cuyahoga River in 1970. The situation there was so bad it actually caught on fire! If that river (and Lake Erie, for that matter) can clean up, anything is possible.
Hello,
Will there be any new Diesel Trains built for Amtrak's new ACELA service, assumed containing a hybrid engine like that of the P-32?
- Jose
I have not heard of any upgrade outside the NEC for high speed diesel ACELA service, nor have any reports of diesel locomotive order (in X2200 South and Disel Era Magazine) for such
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Not much happening in the way of high speed diesel right now. PA wants to buy 110 mph diesel multiple units for Harrisburg - Philly, but they are on hold now. Last I heard, they are trying to find another entity to add on to the order and spread out the development costs. The FRA and Bombardier or some other company is trying to design a "high speed" (prob. 110 mph) diesel train, but this will be years in the making if it ever gets built.
My understanding is that the Turbotrains are being rebuilt, funded in part by the state of New York, for 110mph service that will carry the Acela name between NYP, Albany, Rochester, and Buffalo.
And I think the original design speed for the RTL II turbotrain was 130mph.
-Hank
Can someone tell me why is PA ordering diesel locomotives when they have perfectly good overhead catenary on Philly - Harrisburg?! Last I heard (from an Amtrak station employee at Harrisburg), the "Keystone" service was getting some of the older electric locomotives. I assumed they would be available once the Acela trainsets began running.
The older electric locos are the E60's, and they have been AMTRAK'S answer to the R16 all their life! The AEM7's will be needed on Boston service once it is electrified. According to the July Railpace, it is likely AEM7 engines will be doubleheaded when they go to Boston.
I've heard different things about whether the Keystone line will get 'lectrics. But, I think they would generally not be able to go 110 for any distance on that line without tilting, whether diesel or electric. So they will need new trains if they want to go that fast. Then it is an electric vs. diesel choice. I believe the logic is, "we'll run this service and it will be real sucessful and people will want us to have these trains on other lines in the state, none of which are electrified."
Seems like a bit of a stretch, but that's what they decided. One of the big drawbacks is there cannot be service to Surburban or Market East with diesels.
Does this mean that there will be engines on either end?
I wonder if that's because they have TOO MANY AEM-7s.
And what about those E60s? Will they still be used in electrified territory on long-hauls, i.e. Silver Service trains?
Not one on each end, but 2 in the front working doubleheaded. Say so long to the E60 in passenger service. They are simply unreliable.
So then I guess those two AEM-7s will do the work that one E-60 currently does. Will this new AEM-7 setup double its horsepower?
I have noticed that recently the CTA has placed Pepsi Machines in a large number of it's L stations.
My question would be with the concession stands. Why don't they put any in the downtown Subway and Loop Stations??? They do exsists at Addison (Wrigley Field) on the Red Line and Forest Park on the Blue Line.
Both of these exsist before the turnstiles. They should put one right in the middle of the Red Line Platform downtown at Washington & State.
Also on the Blue Line and in some Loop Stations. My question would be why would they pick Forest Park over downtown Chicago and the busiest stations in the system. ( 95th and Dan Ryan Being the busiest followed by Washington & State)
What do you think?
BJ
There are concessions at some of the downtown Blue Line stations in Dearborn Street (the entrances by Daley Center and the First National Bank come to mind) as well as in buildings that you pass through to get on trains (Merchandise Mart, Thompson Center, First National Bank, etc.). The last time I was in Jackson station on the Blue, it looked like they were getting a space ready for a concessionaire. Also, I think there IS a concession stand in at least one of the entrances to the Washington stop on the Red Line, but I don't recall which one.
That said, there are three logical reasons I can think of for not having (more) concessions in downtown stations, in order of plausibility:
1) Space. Especially with the Loop L stops, there may not be enough room for a concession stand. This is especially true of Adams/Wabash and Quincy/Wells stations!
2) While there may not be nearby grocery or drug stores at outlying stations, there are Walgreens, Oscos, and various lobby concession stands downtown. Therefore, the need for a concession stand may be greater at outlying stops.
3) There may be more demand to buy coffee, newspapers, muffins, and such when people are commencing their morning commute than when they're heading home.
As a side note, there WAS a concession booth on the platform at Washington Red Line. It was on the north platform between Randolph and Lake, which at the time was used solely for Howard-bound trains and which now is a stop in both directions for changing to the Loop L.
Wow! I didn't expect to see this many responses under my post...even though it looks like nothing compared to posts related to the heat, but I can definitely understand that (It's 104 degrees right now at 6:00 PM in Central/West NJ). Anyway, I just want to thank you all for the nice welcome, and thanks for the advice...I'll look into all of them. Also, that bush terminal trip seems cool too, BMTman. Thanks again, guys!
I went to the Utica Avenue IND station at about 10am this morning. After walking five blocks through the heat, and walking downstairs, I started to feel very dizzy and nauseous. I went to walk back upstairs to get help, and had to stop halfway up the stairs.
After I had stood there trying to catch my breath and collect my faculties for about 30 seconds, who should start to come down the stairs but a police officer! Help, right? WRONG!!! As he walked past me I croaked, "Excuse me, officer?" He turns around and looks at me...I told him I was really feeling sick and I thought I might need medical attention. You know what his response was???
"Well walk back upstairs to the ticket booth they'll help you!"
When I told him I felt too dizzy and sick to walk any further, his response was, "I have to catch my train the ticket agent can help you!"
He then proceeds to run downstairs and onto a train!
Luckily, the ticket agent was more helpful than the police officer...he called an ambulance, which came within 10 minutes. I just got home from the emergency room, and luckily I am OK.
I just cannot believe the cop's attitude! I wish I had been in enough posession of my wits to get his badge number...but c'est la vie.
Has anyone else ever heard of this kind of an incident in the subway?
I haven't heard anything in particular about the subway but lets put it this way... you just found out the hard way that not all NYC cops are New York's Finest.
Sorry to hear about your incident, Barry. Unfortunately, the Police Academy doesn't teach future cops the basics of common courtesy -- ususally it is supposed to be taught at home.
Glad everthing turned out okay so we can continue to enjoy your company in SubTalk.
Doug aka BMTman
At least he wasn't armed with a plunger.
I was waiting for a train at Union Square when I saw something I'll remember for the rest of my life. I was alone on the platform except for a cop who tossed his cigarette out onto the tracks. A huge rat(and they're all huge aren't they?) left an orange peel and took the cigarette butt in his mouth(still lit) and walked off under the platform with it. It was too funny and there was nobody around to share it with. This must have happened in the early seventies because those big, yellow posters for "HAIR" were still all over every subway and el station that I had an occassion to use.
I'll drink to that!!! I have a better story. One time while walking the New York City subway in the tunnels around Van Wyck Blvd while cutting in the Archer Avenue Extension, I watched a huge rat hand crank a switch machine. He even restored the motor cutout with a key.
I'll bet that rat could operate a train.
In the mid sixties i was a student in George Westinghouse tech h.s.in the electrical instalation class when we had some recruters from the ta,after the job pitch they got into stories they had done on the job well they told us one of the helpers crawled through a small tunnel to some junction boxes in a small room like place,he got halfway through when his light caught many reflections of red eyes,he backed out quickly the crew put plywood across the hole called an extermanitor, later after the gas did it's work they had pulled out about 3 dozen rats....BIG rats, and we saw the photo to back it up this was i think on the 14 th st carnasie subway line. later Karl M
Not very good recruiters!
Oh, come now. Believe that and you'll have a bridge to sell us next. (Or, perhaps a Rudy doll.)
I'd say you probably met my son-in-law but he works PMs
Don't think much of your son-in-law, do you?
Other than the fact that he makes really beautiful kids - no I don't!!!
I'm glad everything turned out alright. But also I must say "Welcome to the real world." In case you havent noticed, unfortunately, there is a report on the news at least every other night on police misconduct. Maybe if there was more of a public outcry and less denial regarding the police misconduct, some changes might be made.
How hot you ask? Well, the subways are gonna be soooo hot that you can make a Western Omelette on the slant end of an R-40.....with enough extras to feed a family of five!! NOW THAT'S HOT! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Once and for all, ARE PASSANGERS ALLOWED TO RIDE THE NUMBER 6 TO CITY HALL STATION WHEN IT IS OUT OF SERVICE? I have been on six trains, and the motormen won't let me do it. I also heard a rumor that you're allowed to get out at the station. If this is true, the TA better inform its motermen, or women, of the rule.
You were, until Rudy Paranoia decided that it might be awfully inviting for terrorists. He also put a stop to the museum's restoration of the station.
-Hank
NYC People should vote rudy for Senate and get revenge on us upstaters who have been spared his stupidity so far
I don't see how anyone OUTSIDE the city could object to Rudy. He cut the New York City school budget to the lowest per capita spending, freeing up state tax dollars to be spent elsewhere. In NYC, government employment has been going down despite a booming economy. Everywhere else in the state, local government employment is booming -- it is going up upstate despite a stagnating economy. He should have, as his campaing slogan, "public services and pay increases for the deserving, efficiency and sacrifices for the undeserving." He delivered on the hard part, and Pataki delivered on the easy part.
The station is right underneath City Hall and with the trial of the terrorists going on all we need is some wacko to brind maybe a small box of semtex and there goes the city government, the 6 line loop, city hall pak and maybe a loaded train at Brooklyn Bridge
The rule about riding around has changed recently by decree of the Mayor's office but you were never supposed to be let out at the platform without TA escort.
Passengers are not allowed to ride the 6 train thru City Hall Station for 2 reasons. #1 the manual of rules and regulations for dep of subways states passengers are not allowed to ride trains into relay areas. The section of track thru the abandoned City Hall Station is a non revenue section(relay area). #2 for a time riders were allowed to ride aboard #6 trains relaying thru City Hall till an incident with a pair of teenagers. Either they were playing between cars or walking the tracks, one teen was killed....
No, that happened AFTER Mayor McCheese had his fit of paranoia. The track through the City Hall station was designated as revenue service trackage about 3 years ago, and at that time, you could go around the loop. Then our mayor decided it was a security risk to allow access to an area directly beneath City Hall, thinking someone might want to blow him up, so passengers were banned from riding through the station, and the Museum plans for the station were put on an indefinite hold.
-Hank
I wonder how paranoid Mark Green is.
He just wants his and his wife's shirts laudered for the same price. A noble goal.
-Hank
His ego is to large to fit through the LOOP at CIty Hall! lets see Brooklyn Bridge fits pretty nicely to the east of City hall & City HAll station on the N & R to the west. Who's to say some nut job wouldn't blow both of these stations simultaneously to attack city hall?
You know, in Philadelphia, you can walk right through the courtyard of City Hall. You can probably bike through! I think you can walk right into the building - maybe you have to go through a metal detector. Actually, I highly recommend it - very interesting architechture. And my highest rating goes to the free ride to the top of City Hall Tower - it is beautiful up there. Anyways, you can stroll all around the place. Also, no concrete barriers or fences around the building. And there are all sorts of Subway tunnels underneath. Yet somehow Mayor Rendell is able to work - despite the lack of security he has around him - and function very well. Come to think of it, a lot of this is true in Chicago, too. I guess Giuliani really is in his own little world!
Rendell for President!
"Come to think of it, a lot of this is true in Chicago, too."
Yep. You don't need to go through metal detectors or even show an ID card to get into the City/County Building, and it is connected by the Pedway tunnels to the Daley Center to the east and the Thompson (State of Illinois) Building to the north. Mind you, you DO need to either go through a detector or show a special ID to go beyond the lobby of the Daley Center, but then that's the civil courthouse, and a lot of domestic relations cases (read: nasty, potentially violent, divorce and custody disputes) are heard there.
Which leads to my question, having never been to City Hall in New York City: are there any courtrooms in City Hall? That may explain the metal detectors (though not the need to shut off access to City Hall station).
And a rhetorical question for all the Guiliani-bashers: is it really SO paranoid to prepare for terrorist bombing when:
1) someone blew up the World Trade Center?
2) the feds caught another group planning to blow up public buildings in NYC, including, IIRC, City Hall?
3) one of the New York magazines did a cover story on how many New Yorkers expect that their city WILL eventually be the target of a terrorist using biological or chemical weapons?
[Which leads to my question, having never been to City Hall in New York City: are there any courtrooms in City Hall?
That may explain the metal detectors (though not the need to shut off access to City Hall station).]
Not for many decades, if ever.
City Hall is a small building, used mostly for ceremonial purposes. If it were to be obliterated from the face of the earth, we would lose a lot of history, but there would be little to no disruption to city government or anything else. What makes Il Duce's "preparations" so arrogant and paranoid is that he assumes the terrorists would come after *him*. It's the financial district that they'd be interested in-
Say you're a terrorist- would you rather blow up
a.) the center of international capitalism
b.) Giuliani
In his warped mind, this choice is a toss up. To boot, the people most upset w/ Giuliani are here in the city and don't have much record of terrorism.
The result is we lose one of the best railfan rides in the city and the Transit Museum branch.
I wonder- has the mayor considered the political consequences of alienating the railfan vote? :)
Philosophically, I have much more of a problem with barricading off city hall, making it impossible for citizens to have access to their place of government, and removing a traditional "forum" (the steps) from the public. Or has this changed in the last few months?
By the way, I do think it is stupid that the embassy bombing suspects were brought to New York. Why was that necessary? Are they still there?
Ooops, I should have said that I thought it was stupid that the embassy bombing suspects were brought to New York City as opposed to, say, somewhere in the boonies. I am not trying to start a flame war over international politics! :)
If you practiced in NYC, you would know that no court sits in City Hall. The City Hall annex, more commonly known as the Tweed Courthouse, still has one or more courtrooms, but it/they is/are used exclusively for filming TV shows and movies.
As for the need to shut off access to City Hall Station, someone obviously thinks that there is a risk of a passenger smuggling a bomb in there. Is that SO paranoid? Beats me. It depends on the intelligence reports you are reading. Since you and I don't read them, we can only guess HOW paranoid he is.
So, vote for Rudy for Senate over Hillary. As paranoid as he is, he'll fit right in.
The tracks are almost complete. Signal heads are installed, but without number plates. The track equipment (stop arms) are just being installed. It looks like they will finish on time, if not before.
Will this repair job allow J/M trains to travel over the bridge at higher speeds?
When is the work on the Willy B. supposed to be done? When will subway service resume?
Chuck Greene
Didn't notice any 3rd rail yet last weekend.
I just saw this on the Fox 5 news (10:23pm) - all the lights are out from 155th Street on north, river to river in Manhattan. This would be the Washington Heights, Fort Washington and Inwood neighborhoods.
Are the A, C and #1 trains affected as well, I wonder.
Let's hope cool heads prevail.
Also - Williamsburg in Brooklyn is under a power alert - lights are on but the power grid is showing signs of strain.
Wayne
All of eastern Monmouth County, NJ was out from about 4 PM until about 5:30 PM tonight - not sure if NJT was affected since I was at my friendly physician's office and unable to head for the tracks. Anybody know?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I heard that all IND and IRT trains are indeed turning around at 168th Street due to the power problem.
I always wonder why they can't just prepare in advance. (I know, I know.. .I'm sure they do.) Power at my house in Jersey City went off on the 4th of July 1996 for about 12 hours and it went off again on the 4th of July 1997. It didn't happen in 1998 and it hasn't happened yet this year. But by the way, if it does, SubTalk will be down :-)
-Dave
As I understand it, the trains themselves are unaffected, as are the signals, so operationaly, there's no problems. The stations, on the other hand, are on the neighborhood grid, so a neighborhood outage would cut the power to the station, and thus the station lighting and booth equipment, including the turnstiles.
-Hank
I arrived at the GW Bridge Bus station last night at 815-ish last night and headed downstairs for what should have been an easy trip downtown. Station was fully lit and a friendly gendarme pointed me towards a shuttle bus. What he should have also said was to take any bus and use my Metrocard to transfer to the subway at 168.
Here's what I experienced this morning:
All A trains terminated at 125th St. The C train was terminated at 145th St. The D train ran normal, except it made all local stops in the Bronx and Manhattan (yikes!). I never saw a single B train, so I must assume that it was diverted away from upper Manhattan along 63rd. St.
They also ran shuttle busses along the A line from 145th to 207th. One can only imagine how hellish that ride must've been.
Perhaps the MTA could figure out some way to switch the lights/turnstyle electrical connections from the the local Con-Ed grid to the third-rail of the tracks. If this could've been done the trains could probably run normally.
There are 2 problems with that. First, you're robbing the trains of their power source. Second, 'normal' current is 120vAC, 60Hz. Third Rail is 600vDC. The amperage is also way off. Incoming current from the pole to your home is 2-phase 240vAC; that is, there are two 120v lines, one pulsing +-+-+, the other pulsing -+-+-. They are split at the breaker box into 2 separate lines of 120v each. A normal line (say, 4 outlets) is a 15 amp line, a standard airconditioner plugs into an outlet (one you could use for a lamp as well) that is usually a 20 amp single circuit. Heavy-duty air conditioners use 2 phase, 30 amp power, and have special outlets that cannot be used for anything else.
So, to convert the 600vDC third rail power to run the 120/240vAC 'hotel power' you need a variety of heat producing inverters, and a completely seperate power circuit, hooked to a relay box that would automatically switch from ConEd power to the backup (which is how buildings with backup generators do it) but at that point, you're robbing the traction power system to run stations. This has the result of reducing train speeds, and could cause other problems.
-Hank
Wow, I didn't realize it was so difficult. I have often seen transit workers plug emergency lights right into the third rail in areas that need to be lit for trackwork.
IIRC, about 5 years ago I remember reading an article in the then NY Newsday about how many subway tunnel lighting systems were directly connected to the third-rail power. They commented that the entire 4th Ave local is (or was, this was a few years back) had its tunnel lights powered by the third rail. The author of this article seemed to suggest a disaster if something caused the loss of the third-rail power, which would leave completely dark tunnels.
Oh, well....it was an idea.
Question -- did the service shut down in Washington Heights strand the fleet in the 207th and 240th St yards, trashing rush hour service this morning?
F train service was certainly trashed this evening. I guess we now know what kind of service F riders could expect if the Rutgers tunnel were lost -- one train every 10 minutes. It was jammed.
There's no A north of 145th Street. They probably have third-rail power up to 207th Street, but the station lights were no doubt affected. That's a good question - was the entire Shoppe out of commission?
All but 6,000 or so customers are back on-line, with those without power all in the Inwood section. This was as of 11:05PM.
Wayne
They do. But they use DC bulbs (I have not yet asked my father the difference) wired in a series of 5 (each bulb being 120 watts)
-Hank
Are you sure there is a difference for incandescent bulbs?
OTOH, I think fluorescent lights have to be AC. I don't think anything else in a station that is on all the time would have to be fed AC, but it would still demand a lot of electronics to convert 600 VDC for use in a station.
It was not a problem with third rail power that we had on the Broadway line, it was an A/C power failure affecting signals. There was a dip in Con Ed power at 0630 Tuesday morning. All signals went to danger from 207th Street to Dykman Street on 1 track and from 191 to 207th Street on 4 track (1/9 lines). We had to flag trains through the area until 1000. I don't know the specifics of the situation through the day Tuesday, but Wednesday night, 1/9 trains were being turned south at 96th Street and 137. Eventually signals were beginning to come back north of 137. There was an absolute block, north and southbound from 215 to 145. Service out of Van Cortland was somewhat back to normal around 0800. This lasted until about 0700. Service needless to say was very spotty. This is why Times Square tower was taking selected 2 and 3 trains and sending them ariound the ferry. We had to have some service down there.
Oh yes, one other thing, while third rail pwer was not affected (at least at night it wasn't) lights in stations and elevators at 168, 181 and 191 were affected by the power failure.
Yes, the A, 1 and 9 trains were indeed affected. Also, there was no "A" train service between Rockaway Blvd. and the Rockaways on Monday night (July 5th) because of the power failure in Broad Channel and Howard Beach. Eventually, the MTA provided shuttle bus service between Rockaway Blvd. and Beach 98th St.-Playland. At that point you would have to change for the "S" Rockaway Shuttle which was running between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park only.
I also heard Tuesday morning (July 6th) that the "N" train was not running between 57th Street and Queensboro Plaza (Courtesy of Fox's Good Morning New York).
as of 4:30am : A train out from 168 to 207. 1 express from 137 to Dyckman. SOURCE: WCBS880/Shadow Traffic. Bus is being provided for the A train. WIlliamsburg and L I City are next. The problem in Washington heights is burned out feeder cables. Williamsburg and L I City cables are at capacity. Washington Heights is out "River to River".
My own power was off 3 hours yesterday due to blown transformer.
UPDATE as of 7:28am SOURCE: WCBS880.
A: no trains 125 to 207- free bus.
1/9: not stopping at 168,181,191
B: runs on N/R to 57/7th
C: runs to Bedford Park on D Line
D: Local in Manhattan NORTH of 59/ COlumbus Circle.
Newark Penn running on back up generator- POSSIBLE train problem may occur, but as of 7am no PATH, NJT problems(Source; News12 NJ)
The problem with the trains is as Hank said, stations.Here is what I know and will divulge:
Some stations have some emergency lights on the platforms-usually good for 1-2 hours. Turnstiles, booth- Battery back up for the computer lasts about 24 hours for memory retention ONLY. Booths are dark and no power. and yes- the communications system in the booth- fire system and emergency system have battery backup and yes- when electric power fails an alarm is automatically sent to command center.
While I am not on the scene, Transit has extra help at the scene.
So if I understand correctly, trains can run through a blacked-out area but can't stop at affected stations?
Well, they can, but they shouldn't and won't.
-Hank
But if the 1/9 is running through without stopping between 155th and Dykman, then they are.
I'm guessing this began today only after daylight, when the 1/9 stops from Dykman north have solar illumination.
Why are they running the B on the Broadway line? Why should Brooklynites suffer because of a power failure in Upper Manhattan? The simpler thing to do would be to divert the B to 21 St/Queensbridge. Then service south of Rockerfeller Center would be perfectly normal.
The B was stopping at DeKalb, so Manhattan-bound riders could transfer to the D or Q. That probably minimized any inconvenience.
Was the B running express along Broadway? Perhaps it's a harbinger of things to come; namely, a revival of the T. Just a thought...
Because of the delays and switching going on in northern Manhattan causing a ripple effect on the rest of the lines that feed in there.
-Hank
I got news for you. When I was riding the "Q" to 21 St., Queensbridge, the "B" was also running there via Sixth Avenue. But the weird thing is that all of the "B" trains that I saw while riding from 21 St to W. 4 St (4 in all) were all marked 57 St./7 Ave.
UPDATE 2:18PM WCBS880-
Subway changes still as posted earlier. Newark Penn- no train problems as of 2:18 but power is back out for waiting rooms(track power is on.)Generators working. Newark PD and NJT Transit Police are directing traffic and staffing mobile command center near Newark Penn.
Well I know I am late on this topic but here is what I Experanced Tuesday working the No.1 Line.
At 7:00AM the day started out with Signal Problems between 207 Street to North of 191 Street. Downtown No.1 Trains were backed up to 231 Street. Then I finally went down to road at 8:49AM. As I got to 96 street at 11AM there was a A/C Power failure from 181 Street to 225 Street and a Indication that the Broadway Bridge was up. There was no service from 168 Street to 242 Street. Trains were being turned at 96,137,168 Streets. On my first time I got turned at 137 Street. Then as I walked throw the cars I realize I had 5 Steaming hot cars. So I left back to go South. Then back uptown and I was turned at 96 Street . Anyway back uptown Control Center informed us there would be no No.1 Service from 137 Street to 242 Street and Subway Shuttle Busses where available. I ended up sitting at 125 Street because there was a Train at 137 Street with no crew. So I was at 125 Street for 20 Minutes before any movement. The people started getting wild. Calling control did no good. So they finally got someone on the train. Then I came in and was reliefed after 7 Hours on the same train. So At 4 PM the train behind me was the first train to go Throw to Van Courtlandt With a TSS since all the signals where dark. So They resumed Service and then other blackout at around 10:30PM. There was a downtown No.1 Train stuck at 181 Street and the crew guided the people up the Very long dark dirty stairway. They cut the No.1 Service from 242 Street to 137 Street. Then around 7AM Wednesday everything was moving with delays and all trains skiped 168,181, and 191. At 9AM thery had trains stopping at 191 Street with a dark station. During the Rush Hours there was no Skip stops. We only passed 181,and 168 Streets.
There was Delays going to Brooklyn and South Ferry. There was Signal problems on the Downtown Express track North of Chambers Street. So No.2,3 Trains were sent down the local. But lots of crews need to use the restrooms at Chambers Street after being stuck on the same trains for hours. So in turn there was Delays on all trains From 14 Street to Chambers. Some Midnignt and early AM crews did Not get off the road intil about 4:30PM.
Did the NYC Board of Transportation hired women drivers/conductors during the war years, as the other industries did?
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Hi!
I'm going to be visiting New York soon to see the Yankees play. I',m going to be arriving at Penn Station. I thought I'd take a cab to Grand Central and from there take the route 4 subway to the stadium. Does this make sense? Can someone tell me what taxi fares are in New York?
Scott --
Save yourself the time and the cab fare.
Once you arrive at Penn Station, walk one block east to 6th Avenue and 34th Street. There you can catch the D train to Yankee Stadium.
To heck with that, just take the A or C to 59st, and change for the D.
-Hank
Probably due to the power problems I saw the following abnormality at
7:23 am at Penn Station. While standing on the downtown express plat-
form a downtown "C" pulled in made up of R-46s. The train consisted of 5330-5331-5328-5329-5324-5325-5327-5326. When the train pulled out, the rear window destination sign still had the "A" posted, though
the front was defintely signed "C".
That is not an R46 train. It is an R44 train.
Dear Aaron:
The R-44s operate on the A line, and if possible, some of
the cars can be swithced over to the C. The R-46s operate only on
the E, F, G and R lines.
James S. Li
My bad, can't tell the difference by sight. R44 made by St. Louis,
R46 by Pullman, right???
Yes, that's correct. There is a way to tell them apart from the outside. Look on the car side where the blue stripe used to be below the windows. On the R-44s, that area is painted silver and stands out from the surrounding stainless steel skin. On the R-46s, that area is identical to the rest of the car surface; i. e., it is not painted.
The TA will be adding stainless strips where the blue strip use to be. They feel if they leave it the way it is it could comprimise the strucural strength of the cars.
Where did you hear that??????
WHAT? That stripe is simply the body of the car, painted blue or gray. Nothing added or taken away. They took the stripes off the cars because they came to the realization that if it doesn't need to be painted, they don't need to paint it, thus saving on the cost of paint, and the labor to apply it.
-Hank
That's very true, and it's just common sense. My observation was that the area where the blue stripe used to be definitely appears to be painted over in silver on the R-44s, because the surface is dull compared to the rest of the car. That's not the case on the R-46s; the area where the stripe used to be is shiny along with the rest of the car. You'd never guess there used to be a blue stripe on the R-46s.
No, most of the 44's have a non-stainless steel sheet of metal in the sheet, and this must be painted (it does rust, and there is no stainless steel under it). 5228-9 have a stainless steel sheet welded on. This is what they should do on the rest of the cars.
Steve will most likely be the person who settles this, but having seen the unpainted R44 (on SIR) it does not appear that there is, or was, a piece of carbon steel where the paint band is. Additionally, if there were, you would see large amounts of corrosion on the edges of the band, on both the stainless and non-stailess body parts, as the steel is reactive to each other, and will form a natural battery. if left close enough together for a period of time.
-Hank
The ones in Staten Island were made with a stainless steel band like the R-46's. The rest have carbon steel covered with a painted steel sheet.
It seems rediculous that they would manufacture some cars with all stainless steel bodies, and others without. This means (to my understanding) that they built over 387 cars with C-steel, and 64 with all stainless bodies. Seems mighty unlikely. And even if it were just the SIR cars, that means that 400 cars were built one way, and 52 the other. Steve, car to chime in on this one?
-Hank
IIRC, this is but one of several ways in which the specifications for GOH (general overhaul) differed between the Staten Island and non-Staten Island R-44s. The Staten Island cars were retrofitted with stainless steel "belly bands," while the others were patched and painted.
David
]It seems rediculous that they would manufacture some cars with all stainless steel bodies, and others without. This means (to my understanding) that they built over 387 cars with C-steel, and 64 with all stainless bodies. Seems mighty unlikely. And even if it were just the SIR cars, that means that 400 cars were built one way, and 52 the other. Steve, car to chime in on this one?]
The fact of the matter is that I don't know the answer but will find out I had heard that there was corrosion under the original paint on the 44s so they opted to repaint. I can say that after the 135th St collision, we cut up the car involved. It appeared that the car side was all stainless steel, however.
Huh?
The 44's were the older cars. So Pullman made the 46's slightly different in several ways, and one of those was to make the band stainless steel.
look at the door frames its the easiest of give aways.
Pullman Standard R46 have round door frames while St Louis Car Company R44 has square door frames. Interior- R44 has near doorways plexiglass windbreaker(shield) while R46 has nothing there to protect passengers from inclement weather. On A cars nearest cabs R44 has three seats nearest cab door while R 46 has two which explains why cab areas are larger on R46 and so DAMN cramped on the R44. A Conductor or Train OPerator has to literally go into to the passenger compartment to change their mind(HEHE) thats how small those cabs are. on R46 a train op can sit comfortably while on a R44 you're seated with the reverser key jammed into your groin...OUCH.
Originally the R-46's had those plexiglass windbreakers. Don't know why they were removed. Also, pre-overhaul R-44's had a metal supporter under the foward facing seats.
I think vandalism had something to do with it. OK, another difference: the cab door on the R-44s is narrower and is hinged. The cab door on the R-46s is wider, has a larger window, and is the sliding variety, IIRC.
BTW, I liked that crack about the operator having to go to the passenger compartment to change his mind. Definitely rim shot material!
The R46's also are more comfortabe if you have a window seat. The contoured armrests have rounded edges, where as the R44's have sharper edges. I onced acidentally had my elbow slammed into the edge of one of those and it hurt like hell!
The R44s still have the windbreakers (partitions near the doors), and they're not plexiglas - they're tempered safety glass. The R46 do not have them, and I've leaned through that gap on a number of occasions, mentally still thinking they were still there (they're not).
Wayne
They had that support because the seat support brackets were failing after 10 years of service and fat people (myself included).
The plexiglass dividers were present on the SIR R44 when they were returned, and they suddenly had a vandalism problem with them. They didn't have a problem before the overhaul. So now, we've got the empty frames. We've also got craked walls, but that's another story.
-Hank
look at the door frames its the easiest of give aways.
Pullman Standard R46 have round door frames on the outside near roof line while St Louis Car Company R44 has square door frames. Interior- R44 has near doorways plexiglass windbreaker(shield) while R46 has nothing there to protect passengers from inclement weather. On A cars nearest cabs R44 has three seats nearest cab door while R 46 has two which explains why cab areas are larger on R46 and so DAMN cramped on the R44. A Conductor or Train OPerator has to literally go into to the passenger compartment to change their mind(HEHE) thats how small those cabs are. on R46 a train op can sit comfortably while on a R44 you're seated with the reverser key jammed into your groin...OUCH.
A trains are R44 only......
Very true, very true. However, back in 1980, when everything that could possibly go wrong was going wrong, the R-46s did run on the CC. That was when they were plagued by cracking trucks. Since the CC was a rush hour-only service back then, it was determined that running the R-46s there would be the most prudent measure. So there they ran, in 6-car trains, while the R-10s went over to the E and F lines. I remember seeing all this during my last visit to New York before heading out to Colorado, on September 5, 1980.
Just to add to what you have stated, the R46s also ran on the "A" and "D" trains and there were several R10s on the "A" as well during that time. The R44s also went to the "E" and "F".
When originally delivered, R44 #260-399 operated on the "D"; #100-259 operated on the "E" and "F", mostly the "F".
Wayne
By 1980, the R-10s were running on the CC for the most part before going over to the E and F lines. The last time I rode on an A train of R-10s was around 1979 or 1980; when it pulled into 59th St. where I was waiting, I was ecstatic. The train roared along CPW the same as every other A train ever did. Interestingly enough, only the cars on the ends of the train were carrying A signs. The other 8 cars sported CC signs. The yard crew most likely took a CC train and coupled an additional car, each signed as an A, on each end.
Big difference is speed. Clearly, the R46's are faster. Actually, it might be the fastest in the train system since they refurbish them back in 1988.
Hmmmm, i've been on those R44's as they jet along the Fulton St. express and I can say with some certainty that they aren't slower than the R46.
It seems that R38s are a bit faster than R44s on both the CPW run and the Fulton Express. I did, however, get a pretty quick R44 (courtesy of #5408) back on February 11. #4060, however, beat it hands down on May 29th. Rocket ride from Hoyt to Nostrand with only one little GT.
Wayne
They R38's are a bit faster than the R44's, but the R46 is a rocket on the Queens Blvd line and so are the R62's on the 4 line.
Peace
DaShawn
R-46 numbers begin at 5482. What you saw was an R-44 train...
That was an R44 you saw, not an R46.
Wayne
These are definately R44s, not R46s. You can tell by the numbers. When the R44s were rebuilt, they were rebuilt by two companies, the Morrison-Knudsen and MTA Coney Island Shops. When the R44s were renumbered, the were numbered as follows:
5202-5341: Morrison-Knudsen; and 5342-5479: MTA Coney Island Shops.
The R46s, which the entire fleet was rebuilt by Morrison-Knudsen, were renumbered as 5482-6256 give or take a few numbers.
Thus, judging from the numbers that you gave, you saw a set of R44s rebuilt by MK.
I recall that the car numbers of the R44's were changed long before they were rebuilt in 89-90. I remember seeing them all have 5000+ back in 86. The R46's, on the other hand all were numbered 500-1199 before the overhaul of 90-91 and were renumbered in 1993.
These were my observations as a rider, I might be wrong.
They weren't renumbered until just before, during, or after overhaul. 388-399 were transfered to the SIR, unrenumbered. (SIR has 388-464)
-Hank
You are definately wrong. When the R44s were sent out for rebuilding, the had their original numbers. When they arrived back from rebuilding, they carried new numbers. This was done during the years 1991-1993
Probably an R44 train that was moved over to the C from the A. Once in DC, they made a green line shortcut into a red line without changing signs. It went towards Judicuary Square with both the signs in the front and back windows green, and came back on the same track with red at the front and green at the back (this was due to the discontinuation of green line shortcut service due to a fire at Judicuary, so they made this green to Greenbelt into a red to Shady Grove or Grosvenor so people wouldn't have to wait as long. It still took me about 2 hours to get home). Probably, the motorman was in a hurry and didn't change all the signs.
I have seen this too. ON the J i have seen signs with Z on the front and J on the rear
I gave the wrong car number to one of the Triplexes in Class of '44. It was 6019, NOT 6012, whose number is visible in the film, in addition to 6095. 6012 is long gone.
Sorry for the gaffe.
Yes, Not a ghost train!
Due to some Power failure, the B train stopped at Court Street on the N,M,R tracks and took passengers up Broadway, switching to the middle track after Canal and making 'express stops only' in Manhattan. A very nice change to my usual local commute. I would love to see this as regular service. Where do I sign the petition?
Just wait until the Manhattan Bridge south side opens and north side closes.
Been there, waited for that.
Will that be before, or after the 2nd ave line gets finished?
IF they start buildng the 2nd avenue line, it will probably take them 15-30 years to finish...
You just answered my post of a half hour ago. Thanks!
Bring back the T! BTW, how fast did those overstuffed R-68s go?
It doesn't take a power failure. I caught a Northbound Broadway Express at 14th Street a few weeks ago in the middle of a work day. It was an N or R, I forget which. I was in a hurry, and it just showed up. It ran express at least as far as 42nd Street, where I got off.
It was probably a reroute due to delays on the local track or some other reason. I got lucky in October of 1991 and caught an N at Union Square which was running express due to what appeared to be a stalled local at 34th St. There were locals backed up all along the line.
And the 3 train went to South Ferry (it was switched over at Chambers). This was great for me because I change to the 1/9 at chambers to go to SF. Why would they do this?
Why does it take a heat wave to get the trains running right??
I would guess there was congestion on 2/3 to Brooklyn, so they "turned" the 3, i.e. at South Ferry they can swith her to 4/5 & she can go back home in the Bronx (probally have to be a #2 first) or become a 3 again at Chambers.
Mr t__:^)
From the sporadic (and usually wrong) transit reports of WINS, 1 service was royally screwed up, with 1/9 trains suspended from 168-2423, and 1 trains suspended from 137-242.
The current pattern, according to the TA (I called 330-1234) is All F service via the A line, W4st to Jay St due to a substation fire at Essex St; all 1/9 service turning at 145st; all A/C service terminating at 125st; B Trains are going to Queensbridge; D trains are Skipping al stops from 125st to 161st.
Or at least, that's what they're saying.
-Hank
On the 1/9 the underground yard is after 137th where they can turn on the center, "M" track, so I assume the last uptown stop would be at 137th. Past 145th there is a switch that would allow turning, but it would be more difficult for them to do it there.
Mr t__:^)
If service NB is not going beyond 145, its six of one , half dozen of another.
137 last stop. Train runs onto M track n of 137, dumps, T/O changes ends, goes S onto 1Track, 137 first stop. This move leaves the mainline clear for NB service to 242.
145 last stop. Train runs N of 145 to clear switch, dumps, T/O changes ends, goes S on M track across switch to 1Track, 137 first stop.
Obviously, choice 1 is preferred, but choice 2 is not any harder.
Frank Corrall in Pelham 1-2-3 would have loved it. I can just hear him punctuating his assessment with, "Aside from that, everything's ginger peachy."
The reason was there was continous Delays on the No.1/9 Line. The delays where from Tuesday to Wednesday. Also there was a No.3 BIE in the Clark Street Tube. Control had a open Mic.
I was in high school in the late sixties when most of the el stations throughout the city were still pretty much the same as when they opened back in the early 1900's. My family lived in a tenement off of Marcy Avenue and I remember getting the train for school from there. It was in terrible condition back then, mostly just from neglect. The side platforms were too narrow and the wooden planks were rotten in a lot of areas. I don't live in the city anymore, but I still go back to visit my sister and her family. I was really glad to see the improvements.
Last night around 10:20 the TA control center ordered all IND/BMT trains to not exceed series on their master controllers. This was in addition to earlier orders to cut out the headlights and main car body lights when out doors during the day time.
All the A/C units in crew facilities were shut down and the lights in some stations were dimmed.
This was due to a request from Con Edison to reduce power consumption.
The control center granted authorization to resume normal speed around 11:10.
Needless to say most motormen ignored the orders. I for one welcomed the opportunity to run $low. Late trains mean overtime. It also gave me a chance to catch up on my reading. 8-)
Did anyone tell the passengers train service will crawl due to a power shortage? This stuff is absolutely third world.
Passengers on the R-68s wouldn't see any difference, anyway.
Maybe they could recruit some of those tunnel rats to run in one of those cylindrical exercise wheels attached to a turbine generator (joke).
No, It's not third world. You see, there's a power shortage that's been going on the last few days. Can't make enough. What really bugs me is there's a perfectly useable power plant out on the Island called Shoreham. One that was built, tested, then closed, because people here refuse to accept a method of power generation that is used throughtout the world safely (save for the former USSR, but that's another can of worms). I have no sympathy for people who loose their power anymore (or when I loose it myself) Everyone wants wants wants - but nobody wants the other end (the power plant) near them. same with transmission lines. People forget that electricity doesn't grow on tress. Most of what went on the last few days was due more to NIMBYism than anything else.
But, of course, it's only Con Ed's fault. Like they're supposed to wave a wand and double the capacity of their system without building anything?
Con Ed has had 34 years to improve their system. I was in the city in the 1965 failure. It started when a relay failed at a plant near Niagara falls which int unred knocked a substation off-line which knocked off more plants. The CANUSE (the power grid) grid performed as expected and sent tons of power rushing upstate to fill the void which caused more plants to fail including several Con-Ed plants. Finally con-ed lost several generators and plants and finally was forced to pull the plug to avoid even more damage.
In 1977 Con-ED lost Ravenswood due to lightning. A domino effect once again took out the city.
I realize the nimby forces may stop new plants but more feeder cables should be installed and of higher ratings and quality.
They should also improve the training of their people to recognize dangers and use the grid to get more power to the city.
Welcome to the next big NIMBY war / City Planning nightmare.
A bunch of private power companies want to build private gas-fired electric plants in various parts of the city to compete with Con Ed. One even expressed an interest in Governors Island. Sunset Park is another possibility. Where the neighbors have gotten wind, its war. And with the environmental process, even a clean burning gas plant could have a problem. Power plants are "as-of-right" in M3, but the one I knew about wanted to build a floating power station on a pier so it wouldn't have to buy land -- just a massive natural gas connection.
As for putting the plants elsewhere and adding transmission capacity, you've all heard about cancer causing electromagnetic fields haven't you. It turns out that almost everyone who has gotten cancer in this country in the last 20 years has been near electric fields! That is, they have had electricity in their home. They've all drunk water as well, but no one has latched onto that issue yet.
Thats why eveyone should go out and get a portable diesel genarator.
Their not that expensive.
The plant on LI is nuclear. People worry abut pollution and it reminds
them of the plant in the former USSR.
How about the plant near Queensbridge. That plant online right?
How populated is Shoreham anyway? Build a nuclear plant in NYC.
People are afraid of Shoreham for the same reason they are afraid of ALL nuke plants.
They simply don't know a thing about it.
#1 Shoreham was (I believe) a GE BWR-5 (maybe 6?) This design boils the water directly in the reactor vessel, and sends it to turbines that turn generators. It's been very sucessfully used in the US and abroad. One of the more interesting charachteristics of them is that the steam loop has radioactive Nitrogen in it - though the stuff has a half life of only 7 min, meaning that it looses half it's radiation after 7 min.
#2 The amount of waste from ANY nuclear plant is rather tiny - only a few tons per year, which is stored onsite anyway. The low level stuff (raidoactive man suits, etc) is the majority. The fuel (which *is* very radioactive) never leaves the site for at least 10 years.
#3 The waste, unlike emissions from coal plants, or incinerators, will ultimately lose it's radioactivity. Fuel rods (I believe) are supposed to be as radioactive as the uranium that made them origionally in about 100 years, not the millions that anti nuke people want you to think.
#4 Three Mile Island did NOT explode. It melted down. (It's a complicated issue that I won't go into here)
#5 The explosion at Chrynobyl was a steam, not a nuclear. Also note that such a plant wqould not have been built pretty much anywhere else in the world.
#6 There's a nuke plant up at Indian point, which is closer to NYC than Shoreham anyway. Has been for years.
Is nuclear the only answer? No. But it's not as dangerous as everyone thinks it is, nor are the issues of waste as unsolveable. I support nuclear power because it doesn't pollute the air or water, yet gives me the power to enjoy my life. In short, nuclear power means a higher standard of living.
No one who knows anything about Nukes expects one to explode. That a well designed Nuke will only melt down in the event of a cooling system failure is small comfort. The environmental contamination resulting from such an accident or from any unplanned discharge into surrounding air, water, or ground should not be made light of. LI has no operating commercial Nukes because the plans for evacuation of the population on LI near the plant in the event of a leak were a joke.
Moreover, the industry's experience in its first few decades has shown that the economics of running Nukes are not nearly as favorable as had been expected.
The recent trend toward demolishing hydro power dams is much more worrisome than anti-Nuke attitudes. Dam removal is actually reducing generating capacity.
there are 3 power plants at IP but only 2 are active
#4 Three Mile Island did NOT explode. It melted down. (It's a complicated issue that I won't go into here)
When people criticize nuclear power plants, they cite first Chernobyl, then TMI. But the counter argument, from actual nuclear engineers, also cites TMI. They show that the safety systems, and all the emergency procedures worked exactly as designed, and the threat to the community was minimal.
-Hank
What about solar panels. If the capacity problem occurs on really hot days, and everyone had solar panels on the roof, wouldn't that offset? I had heard that solar panels were getting competitive (of course that depends on the quality of the installation and how long they last). As a source of peak power, I'd bet they'd be even more competitive given the way the price of power spikes in those cases. The New York Metro Area has lots of residential rooves just taking up space, which could be put to use.
If it seems to work and the payback is OK, I'd consider putting some panels up on my roof the next time it needs to be redone.
Materials science should keep getting the cost of photovoltaics down, and the efficiency up. I think this sort of small scale renewable energy will be significantly boosted by utility deregulation. In some states, if you have solar powers or a windmill on your property, and you generate more power than you are using, you can put that power into the grid and the electric utility has to buy it from you. (I am not sure if this applies to residences, but it could in the near future...) This sort of thing, and competition among energy producers, could really open up solar IMHO.
It makes sense to criticize Con Ed for not being prepared for the past few weeks. On the other hand, if the mayor and the governor had real vision, they could use this to promote far more energy efficient air conditioning, and twist Con Ed's arm to get them to chip in for it. It would probably be a cost effective way for con ed to get up to the needed capacity (ie, reduce demand).
The power problems of the last week have to do with the capacity of the neighborhood networks, NOT a lack of power plants. It's like have 500 subway cars, and only 4 miles of track. The way power distribution works, it's generated, reduced, transmitted (with increases along the way to account for loss), reduced, redistributed, reduced again, and finally delivered. If a neighborhood transformer goes out, you lose 10 customers. If a local transformer goes out, you lose about 100. If the local substation goes out, you lose about 10,000 customers. If a larger, regional substation goes out, you lose about 70,000. If your plant goes out, you're screwed, because everybody goes out. This is where your dominos start to fall. This is also where the media (and His Cheesiness) are in error. They call the failure a lack of available power, when what it really is is a lack of ability to carry the power. Like the Lexington line.
The substation that failed was equivalent to 3 local substations, since limnited space in NYC doesn't allow you to spread them out as much.
-Hank
With respect, from the customer's point of view, if it isn't available at the wall outlet, it isn't available. The typical NYer neither knows nor cares about the distinction between generating capacity and transmission capacity. He wants his lights, and he wants his A/C.
I must say that I think you have allowed your generally high opinion of Hizzoner the Grouch to color your judgment. Since he doesn't have the good sense to take off his tie when it's over 100 degrees, you should give him a break for being too cranky to make fine technical distinctions that most of his audience wouldn't have cared about.
[This is also where the media (and His Cheesiness) are in error. They call the failure a lack of available power, when what it really is is a lack of ability to carry the power. Like the Lexington line.]
Con Ed should build the Second Avenue power line. It might be ready in 70 years or so :-)
I need the Signal control line drawings for the following:
1) Myrtle Avenue El to Bridge-Jay Street
2) Third Avenue El in the Bronx and Manhattan
3) Culver Shuttle
Can anyone supply me with a copy? Let me know via E-Mail.
Can anyone supply me with Signal Control Line Drawings for the entire system?
I have an extra set from 1976. I will E-Mail you tonight.
I wonder if two rats can drive a subway train. One would operate the master controller and other would operate the brake valve. Think of all the expense NYCT could save.
Actually, aren't the R-142s gonna have single handle controllers? Then you'd only need one rat! Actually, 2 maybe - one to weight down the deadman, one to push the handle around.
But - can rats join unions? Then the savings might not be as much.
(Actually, aren't the R-142s gonna have single handle controllers? Then you'd only need one rat! Actually, 2 maybe - one to
weight down the deadman, one to push the handle around.
But - can rats join unions? Then the savings might not be as much.)
You make a good point.
NYCT is a closed shop- you must either join the Union or pay the shop fee (same amount as Union dues). The rats would have to pay! And yes- the rats would have to pass drug, alcohol and medical tests.
What you describe is a union shop, not a closed shop. In a closed shop, you must belong to the union; merely paying a fee is not allowed. Closed shops are illegal for public employees in New York State. Also, for many other categories of unionized workers in many US jurisdictions.
If we let rats into the union, then who's blow up dolls will we be able to burn in effigy at union rallys?
P.S.
Dave; for a respectable dude in such a high responsibility job, you have a shocking sense of humor! I've been meaning to tell you that.
I'm sorry I brought it up! I was going to ask if you could get a rat to open and close the doors. There might be a problem with squeaky announcements, though.
Bad announcements? Like "s zzzzz tmss re cg hr fr iv ex en errrrr aaa see ee nd mbr ven tch ta losg drs" is understandable?
PS - I'm not handing out a prize - but can anyone guess what I just said? (-:
"This is Times Square. Change here for . . . N, R, A, C, E, and #1. Watch the closing doors." Amazing. You rally sound just like the PA announcements on the trains. This is just about as much as I can usually make out. Haven't a clue what "iv ex" means.
Actually having rats working in the TA isn't a bad idea for the union at all. Since they chew on ANYTHING they would create massive amounts of overtime for all departments. Their pay is cheap if you place some provolone cheese on third rail cables, door engine wiring and inside bus motors. We could also use pigeons too. Remember the chap who was killed ten years ago after being hit by a suspension cable on the Brooklyn Bridge? The corrosion of the steel cable was blamed on acidic pigeon doo doo. Department of Infrastructure would have job security with pigeons and rats.
And not to forget acid rain. Pigeons, rats and acid rain -- what a deadly combination!
Only ONE job class - pigeons are "flying rats".
Have guys been smoking steel dust???? (at least it wouldn't show up in the screenings...)
I know a few rats who belong to unions :~}
One rat oughtta do it. Have you seen their SIZE lately? More like CATS that RATS!
--Mark
why bother when ATO(automatic train operation) is in the not too distant(translated 40 years)
Today i was waiting for E train and i saw R46 #6128 with orange R sign. I was suprise that i never see orange R sign in my life. What they use for? Any one about this?
Peace Out
"Meaney"
Maybe at some point the R will operate via 6th Av during some construction. They did the same thing with the B and D trains a few years back. When the Manhattan Bridge work was going on there were split B & D services. Part ran to 34th St/6th Av. To continue you had to transfer to B & D service running on the Broadway line (N & R) from 57th St/7th Av to Brooklyn. Those trains (B & D) running via Broadway had Yellow circles with Black letters.
Or maybe there was a printing error and they didn't want to throw away
the roll sign.
Maybe when the 63rd Street tunnel is open, some R trains will operate via 6th Avenue and some via Broadway. The other option is to show that the train is going up 6th Avenue instead of Broadway due to a reroute.
Also, a few years ago, I saw a Q train with the yellow and black sign on the Brighton Line (I forget where exactly). Any ideas as to why he had that sign displayed?
At the time, some cars only had the yellow "Q" sign. The R40M and R42 cars still have only yellow "Q" signs. The Orange "Q" signs were added on later in the R40 and R68 cars, IIRC. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
Wayne
R42s now have the orange Q sign.
-Stef
R-42's have always had the orange Q. It was only the original R-68 signs that did not have it. They used the diamond yellow Q. Replacement signs have it, though. So when the Q used R-68's it could only be in yellow, and even the newer signs they kept on yellow to be uniform with the rest.
The R68a had an orange Q. The earlier R68 did not.
All the answers below have merit but it should be pointed out that the Q is actually a Broadway line route, therefore the Yellow circle with black letter. That is why earlier roll signs have the yellow symbol.
When the south side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge were closed and the
N's were sent thru the Montague St Tunnel, the Q's were shifted to the 6th Avenue line. As newer equipment was added and new roll signs printed the Orange Q was added (there also Yellow B's and D's on some sign rolls).
If and when the south side tracks are reopened the Q might be returned to Broadway line service.
i remember when the R was the RR and it was green with white letters and the Q was the QB with red with white letters the B was black with a white backround.. some lines havent changed the D,F,A,also all shuttle srvices were SS green with white lettering..FYI
To my knowledge, there are no orange Rs. However, since you were thorough enough to give the car #, I will check the car out ASAP & see what's up.
I wonder if it had a white letter - if it had a black letter, it could have been a Broadway yellow sign which became discolored for one reason or another.
I saw an orange "N" sign (with WHITE letter) in the front of R40 #4320. I did several double-takes but it appeared orange nonetheless.
The "N" was white, that much I am certain of.
Wayne
Perhaps it was an attempt to make a deepr yellow that could be used with a white letter. They did this on the last Metrocard station poster, using the orange usually used on 6th Av for the N&R, and the BDF&Q used a deeper orange. This is why I like the deep gold, because it is easier to see than yellow, yet does not look like orange.
Brian Cudahy makes two references to an orange and white N in the original edition of Under the Sidewalks of New York. One reference is found in the film set appendix, specifically where The French Connection is mentioned along with R-42s 4572-4573. The other reference is in the epilogue "A Ride on the Sea Beach".
Curiously, if I'm not mistaken, the N line has had a yellow or gold color code ever since colors were adopted with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection.
The N has always been thus.
The only other lines that never changed colors are the "A", "D" and #2. The "G" changed shades, becoming a lighter green. The "L" also changed shades, going from black to grey. So did the "E", going from light to dark blue.
Wayne
Just arrived in NYC for a 3-day "Transit & Weather Together" visit. In the first hour: R-46 on the E; R running on 6th Ave; B on Broadway; F running on the 8th Avenue line between W 4th and Jay; and an R-42 on the Q. While I hate the heat, and hope the blackouts are over soon, it sure makes for interesting riding!
I'm sure we'll all be listening to WCBS-AM Newsradio 88 to hear you, Todd. Perhaps you could change the forecast for the next three days to: Sunny and dry; High about 80 :-)
[ I'm sure we'll all be listening to WCBS-AM Newsradio 88 to hear you,
Todd. Perhaps you could change the forecast for the next three days
to: Sunny and dry; High about 80 :-) ]
Or, maybe he could add some car-assignment predictions:
"Sunny and dry, high about 80, some R32's will likely be assigned to the Eastern division, with scattered R42's running to Astoria"
Somehow I think I have better luck with car assignment forecasts than the weather :-)
Rode the B on the Broadway express just now. They even had the right color posted!
I was on a northbound N on the Broadway line today about 1 PM. As we pulled into the 34th St. station, a B train pulled in across the platform on the express tracks. Now if they could only restore Brighton and Sea Beach expresses to the Broadway BMT...
I just wish that B was a Slant 40 instead of a HIPPO!
Todd you're a man after my own heart!
Were the "B"s on the Broadway wearing Yellow or Orange signs?
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
The two that I saw were wearing Orange signs.
The B train was running on the southbound Broadway/Sea Beach express all afternoon. I rode the "N" out the Sea Beach this afternoon after a meeting and I caught two "B" trains on the express track (the "northbound" track) at 8th Avenue Brooklyn (pictures next week).
Actually, there are a lot of R42s on the Q now. There has also been an occaisional r40m on the Q.
I had heard sometime that the subway's power came direct from the upstate power dams via the New York State Power Authority. If that's true, why did the subway go down with Con Ed? Where does the power come from? Doesn't the transit system have its own power grid separate from the local residential lines?
A related question. We now have electric power competition. The parameters are price and reliability. Let's say you select a cheaper, but less reliable supplier, which craps out on a day like yesterday. Could Con Ed just black YOU out, since your supplier isn't delivering? Or is it all one grid in which if someone isn't putting enough, everyone has to get less out, even if they paid for a more expensive but more reliable supplier? And in that case, wouldn't the cheaper but less reliable suppliers get all the business?
Here in Pennsylvania, with our version of electric choice, you choose a power supplier. The "delivery" company is still your local electric utility, which still owns the wires, transformers, etc. Thus, if Peco Energy lines fail, I lose my power, even though I've chosen a different supplier. This has happened quite a bit with all the heat-related problems in this area in the last couple of days. It should shed some interesting light on the power competition issue.
Both SEPTA and Amtrak are experiencing this with their own hopes to choose suppliers. Amtrak had tried to strike a deal with Enron but that's still up in the air, and SEPTA's trying to seek bidders for power. The "vulture" circling this is our local company, Peco, which is screaming about loyalty, local preference, investment, etc as well as trying to drag politicos into the mix.
The problem utilities, especially electric and phone concerns, face today is that they haven't invested in infrastructure (especially the private ones which are more concerned about profit and dividends to shareholders) and this hasn't kept up with current demands. In the Phila area, we hear about all the extra demand due to everyone having air conditioning (certainly not a recent invention and not a phenomenon which has only just proliferated). The real problem is related to Peco's investment in its distribution and transmission systems, which the public record will show is woefully inadequate.
The moral of the story is - regardless of who you've chosen for your "juice", if the local company goes down, you'll go with 'em.
I don't think the TA has an extension cord long enough to reach the dams. I suspect that, if the TA does buy "directly" from PASNY, that is a matter of book keeping and that the power is delivered through Con Ed feeder lines. Electricity being fungible, no one cares so long as PASNY sends Con Ed the same amount on account of the TA as the TA takes from Con Ed.
I don't know whether the TA has its own grid for traction and signal power; but, judging from the events of the last two days, the station lights seem to be powered from the nearest Con Ed manhole.
As for your last question: power pools are supposed to work like the three musketeers. Of course, if you are Humungous Industrial Electrical Consumer, Inc., and you have told the local former electrical monopolist to "stick it," you might be wise to have some back up generation capacity of your own. I don't think there is any way, in the midst of an emergency, that Con Ed could selectively pull the plug on individual residential users. When Con Ed wants to pull the plug on you, it has to send some one to your home and physically disconnect you. Not feasible for you and me. HIEC's are another story. Many of them contract for interruptable service so that they can be cut off by the utility in case of a power shortage. Of course, they don't expect it to actually happen.
For example, a few years ago, Con Ed pulled the plug on NY Telephone. Due to inadequate maintenance and incredibly silly alarm arrangements, Telco suffered a hardware failure while switching over to internal power, was unable to generate its own power and automatically went to battery power. The alarm designed to alert its people that the system had gone to batteries was located in some remote corner of no where. By the time some one happened to wander by and notice the alarm, hours had passed. Its batteries went dead about half way through the repairs. Sounds almost like a public agency.
To David Pirmann early today after i came out of work and i went to take 4 train to Bedford Pk Blvd to take some pictures at Grand Concourse Yard. Than i saw R30 #8337 & #8227 sitting at Grand Concourse Yard. I was suprise that there was another R30 at Grand Concourse Yard. I took three pictures of R30.
Hey David,
How many R30s did you see out there?
There are only supposed to be two R30s used for training of motormen (or motorwomen) at Concourse, numbered 8265-8336.
-Constantine
All i saw it two R30 and took a close look at the Number #8337 and 8227 but i didn't see other R30. Im going back again tomorrow to check out the number again.
Hey Stef, You were right about R30 #8336 & #8265 at Concourse Yard. Also there is a yellow work cars OR720 & IR720 (ex R21). What is OR & IR for? Garbage Cars?
These are the revenue collection cars, used to collect the money from the various points in the subway system at night. The Revenue Collectors are arranged in two car sets, which somewhat explains why they have the same designation R720. The labels OR and IR are supposed to differentiate the cars from each other in case they have to be shopped for whatever reason. Also, there are 20 2 car sets: R714-R723, located at various points along this system. Would anyone care to name the various locations (yards) each of the sets are at???
The garbage cars until recently, were old IRT cars painted in yellow, but were then replaced with cars similar to the R62. Maybe you've seen them. They are called the R127s and R134s and very much look like what we see in passenger service, with the exception of no windows on the cars, and a set of center doors.
These cars cost 1 million dollars each to produce!!! They couldn't put air conditioning in them? Why not???? These poor guys must have been suffering in this horrible heat.
-Stef
The reason that these work cars don't have air conditioning is that the TA really doesn't give a rats ass about their worker's well being and morale. They spent money that could have been used for improving our crew facilities, beefing up rest times between long trips or removing asbestos from the crew rooms years ago but instead they spent money on cars they used to PRODUCE in their own shops, such as the rider cars, out of cars that will be retired anyway. When the 50 year old R-12 rider cars fall apart from the metal fatigue and rust cancers within, they will not be replaced by retiring R-26s and R-28s, unless they strip them of their functioning A/C first. Better yet they will give us the single R-33 cars because they won't have to add B division trippers. By the way is the NYCTA the only outfit that buys their work equipment brand new and is it justifiable?
Harry,
I'm sorry to hear. The TA should care about what happens to their workers, making the Transit Scene a more productive environment. Single R33s might do the trick as they won't have to be modified very much. If the R12s are suffering from metal fatigue, then maybe it's time to retire them. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the TA trying to cut corners by producing their own work equipment in the shops. There is a problem when they don't start taking the needs of it's workers into consideration.
R26/28s: are they useful as work equipment? Probably not, since they are arranged in pairs, and yes they do have AC. The purpose of the rider car is to dump off whatever unnecessary equipment that's there. As is, the cars would be too heavy to pull by diesel along with various work pieces. The car should be a lightened load, but at the same time add to the tractive effort of the work train. Anyway, the riders are good spacer cars to stick between diesels to lighten the weight of the locomotives while they are travelling along the elevated stretches of the subway system.
Whatever the case maybe, it doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing for the TA to buy new equipment, if the TA could accomodate the needs of the workers.
-Stef
Back in the 60's i remember seeing a work train of BMT standards with some flat cars,this was at Fresh Pond Rd station when they replaced the track in sections and loaded them onto flatbed trucks waiting on the street,also the old center cab locomotive with lowered trolley pole was also present..........later Karl M
True, true! I wonder if the ABs were reliable in work service?. A locomotive with a trolley pole - must have been a steeple cab from the old days of the South Brooklyn Rwailway (5,6,7).
Was it true that some QX Types were fitted with trolley poles for service on the South Brooklyn Railway???
I wouldn't be surprised if some of our Redbirds in 1999 were held over to work service. You don't always need a diesel to haul work equipment; a perfectly working subway car can haul flats,hoppers, or anything else. You would have to change the coupler from H2C to MCB on the converted subway cars to haul the work equipment.
-Stef
[ I wouldn't be surprised if some of our Redbirds in 1999 were held over
to work service. You don't always need a diesel to haul work
equipment; a perfectly working subway car can haul flats,hoppers, or
anything else. You would have to change the coupler from H2C to MCB on
the converted subway cars to haul the work equipment. ]
Surely they should be kept as work equipment. Personally I think the stainless steel work equipment is a big waste of money..
The fact that they come in married pair sets isn't too big a deal either. Either use them as a pair, or it shouldn't be too hard to retrofit electrical equipment under a compressor car.. For that matter, you could even put some electrical stuff in the passenger area.
Of course, depending on what you're doing, you can't always substitute a subway car for a diesel -- besides the obvious problem of non-electrified trackage (or trackage with power off), and third rail gaps, the diesels also have finer speed modulation (and control of acceleration rates), and probably much more tractive effort per car.
You have valid points. Who says you have to purchase new work equipment (only if it's necessary)?
Diesels do have the ability to travel everywhere, with or without third rail power.
I got an idea, why doesn't someone in the shop retrofit a SMEE car with a diesel engine???
-Stef
R-127 were $1,113,000 and the R-134 were $1,530,000 each.
Yeow!!! For the money spent, they should have put air conditioning into those stainless steel wonders.....
-Stef
Not to defend high prices, but there are legitimate reasons why those cars cost so much. Things like wire, the TA requires. It's insulation is made from teflon and costs a lot. Also the body is stainless steel. It costs more to purchase but is virtually maintainence free.
I don't agree with the observation that the TA locomotives have more tractive effort than the passenger cars. One engine can barely get out of it's own way. They need two just to haul more than 3 or 4 cars. I've seen one live passenger car pull eight R-46's once. That was one crazy main shop move!
As for no A/C on the work equipment, I agree. The TA is awful cheap when it comes to taking care of it's employees. BUT, lets stop crying about it. What did the old timers do before A/C? The R-134 has no A/C because there's no place to mount an A/C compressor. The space normally used for that is occupied by an additional brake compressor needed for the flat cars.
I stand corrected! Passenger cars really do have the pulling power!
-Stef
Erik, Seems like our roles have reversed. This is one time I dis-agree with management. Long before the R-134s were built, the technology for unitized HVAC was available. I'm talking about the HVAC found in the R-110s, 142s and 143s. The whole unit mounts in the roof through a hatch. Nothing under the car. It should have been included on the 127s and 134s.
But, ah, co$t. The bottom line is after all they care about.
Is teflon wiring insulation used for fire resistance or for some other reason?
i'm not sure if those R27/30's are used for school car at least when is was.. if i'm correct those two cars aren't operational maybe just used for stationary use as classrooms? did you look in the back for the split in two R62's? At the back half of CCY nearest Lehman College are two halves of an R62(union SQ) the car number plates were removed.
I've seen the car. 1437(?) is sitting next to a pair of R12/14s. The "split" R62 is vandalized. How??? I would like to know how the people managed to do it, unless it's people who are very familiar with the yard.
The R30s are probably stationary classrooms if not for anything else.
8424 and 25 serve the same purpose at C.I. as well as numerous others in the various yards.
-Stef
You saw two odd numbered unmarried cars? Were they with their mates or no? If you could send a picture for the roster that would be much appreciated!
-Dave
Ok with me David and pictures should be out next week. I will send it to you.
Peace Out
Meaney
Almost everybody knows that #1437 and #1440 died an early death 8 year s ago at Union Square.
Has anyone seen #1435, #1436 and #1439 recently, or are they going to be scrapped too?
On another note, anyone seen #1434 or #1438 recently? Or are they in a mismatched set possibly containing 1431-1432-1433-1434-1438?
Nick C
Yes, there is a five-car set numbered #1431-1432-1433-1434-1438, with #1438 sporting a transverse cab. They were far back enough in the consist to have escaped damage. #1434 was the 6th car, not sure where #1438 was (anyone have the NTSB report?)
#1435 and #1436 (end damage - bonnets and anticlimbers, possible bent frame on #1435) and #1439 (roof, side and #2 end damage) are up at 207th Street last I heard.
Someone with more intimate knowledge of just what's on Death Row up there could fill us in.
Wayne
In Concourse Yard way in the back of the yard are remaining ends of R62's what numbers i have no idea since the plates are missing.
If it's in two pieces, than it's probably 1437, as 1440's side was sheared off in a similar manner to that of R68 #2755. Oddball! 2755 has weird number plates when compared to her companions.
-Stef
Wasn't the damage to #1440 a lateral penetration of about seven feet, caused by contact with the girders? I would think there would also have been some shearing as well with this. I have a Newsday photo I could send to you via e-mail showing the interior. It was such a deep gash that the seats on the opposite side of the car were folded upright, and the ceiling and light fixtures came down. The photo also shows how the side opposite the impact was bowed from the force.
Wayne
You're probably right. This is just my observation on the car.... Those girders acted like a can opener cutting peeling the lid off this sardine can! I can't recall, but did this car get a bent frame as a result???
I guess she's probably sitting on the deadline at 207th St. I almost wish we could get a walking tour of the yard to observe the deadline of cars. I wish they'd put the wrecked R33s over there already... What are they waiting for??? They're just taking up space over on track 10 (at 239th St). It would be nice if they could be salvaged.
The wrecks should be situated in one area. As I recall, years ago the TA decided to do a clean sweep of 180th St and 239th St Yard, sending REDBIRD R17s to Scrap (good thing 6688 wasn't here!!!), as well as whatever unused work motors they didn't need anymore. Was it my imagination or did they have R12 5704 up at 239th Street for many years???? This car looked ok. She was decked out in an all red paint scheme when I saw her. Why didn't that car get preserved as a museum piece????
-Stef
Good question. Either there weren't any takers, or no one knew it was available.
Just so you know there were several available; R15s 5981, 5992, and 6235 were also sitting around in dead storage for many years. 5981 and 92 were in red, and 6235 was in white, ehhhhh!
-Stef
There's still at least one R15 on the property (not counting the one in the Transit Museum). RQ335. Don't know what it's former number is offhand. It used to be at 36th St Yard but I saw it yesterday in Stillwell (Coney Island) Yard.
-Dave
That's a rider car. There is also an RD336. Don't know what their former unit numbers were. RD336 looked to be in pretty good shape when I saw her last Sept.19th.
Wayne
Yup, other than that, the rest are history!
-Stef
The real question would have to be: were any of those other cars in running condition? If not, who knows how long it would have taken to get them running again. It's still a shame none were saved.
Re. #1440 - my observations of the interior photo shows that the floor was displaced laterally across the car. The frame on the impact side appears to have been substantially destroyed at the point of impact. On the opposite side, you have about a 25-degree (estimate) bend from left to right. I'll bet the wrecking crew cut that car apart right then and there, like they did to #1437. Perhaps the two half shells you saw up at Concourse yard - one is the front half of #1437 (which survived intact - point of impact was between the second and third doors) and the other is half of #1440. Those number plaques are probably sitting on someone's den wall. Maybe we'll see them out on the block at eBay one day.
Wayne
Will they ever be on the road again?
I saw R68 #2577 today and that the weird number plates i ever see but i didn't take pictures because i was on the train moving.
2577? I don't recall seeing odd plates. You know, 2579 is out due to fire damage at Tremont Av not too long ago.
-Stef
He meant 2755.. The numbers on one side are different. They look like the stick-on numerals you see on IRT cars. Perhaps she came back from the repair facility minus the number plaques on the repaired side.
2579 has been marked with an orange box in my book (and the cell in r68.123 has been colored orange as well), indicating out of service due to fire damage.
Wayne
Someone emailed me to tell me that while 2755 was in dead storage, someone snatched her number plates. A shame, since the car hadn't even gone to scrap.
On the R62 question, I never considered that one of the two halves of the R62 at Concourse might be 1440. 1440's damage looked pretty bad.
-Stef
how much damage did the fire do? those subway cars are barely 12-13 years old...
Fire? I thought it was a derailment! This is the Union Sq wreck from 1991, the one with the intoxicated motorman who ran the train off the tracks.
Check the accident list on this site.
-Stef
How do you know that he was drunk?
[How do you know that he (Union Square T/O) was drunk?]
He was convicted of manslaughter based on intoxication, and sentenced to prison.
He failed a BAC test. Plus he overshot a few platforms up on the Woodlawn part of the line. It's a damn shame.
Wayne
Its good thing that nobody did not get to the street level tha fast way. OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He overshot at Mosholu and at one other stop. No doubt the conductor could not see his boards and therefore would not open the doors.
I'll have to go get my copies of the newspapers and see if anything was reported regarding the overshot stations. (I'm doing this now)
(5 minutes time has elapsed).
OK the Daily News said that he overshot Mosholu Parkway and Bedford Park Boulevard, both by a full five cars, "preventing passengers from leaving the train", so I would guess that the conductor was unable to open the lead half of the train, or even opening the doors at all.
BTW - the BAC was .21 - legally drunk is .10, DWAI is .08.
Wayne
I still have my Daily News articles from the Fulton St firebombing and the Williamsburg collision...................
Yes, I have a full Newsday (headlined "Point of Impact") from June 6, 1995, showing the Williamsburg Bridge collision in full graphic detail. You can really see how #4461 muscled her way into #4664's interior, crushing her "A" end but sparing her frame. She'll ride again, I hear, only this time as a "he" and with a Slant R40 end.
Wayne
i would have pulled the emergency brake at that point if i was on that train....
Sorry my bad is R68 #2755 not 2577. Again i saw it at 42st Station today. One side have weird number and other doesn't.
Tell me more bout it
John
There wasn't any. A derailment occurred back in 1991 when an intoxicated motorman ran the train off the tracks just outside of Union Sq.
Check the accident list located on this site.
-Stef
I think he's referring to the recent incident at 182nd-183rd Street in which #2579 got toasted...
And Mr. Ray is still in Jail, correct?
Just an observation here - the picture in the IRT Lexington Line section showing the Union Square wreck clearly shows the shorn-off #2 end of #1437 thrust up against the tunnel ceiling. The signal on the right shows "X", which means we are looking north up the southbound track. The car on the right would have to be #1439, since it was the second car in the train. Look at the roof line - isn't that a rather large dent? #1440 was behind the end of #1437, wrapped around a girder so it isn't visible. And the front half of #1437 wound up with its nose about 75 feet from the station.
Wayne
Right you are.
I don't have any clue about what happened to Mr. Ray though. The equipment itself is in question; I would like to know how long the equipment has to stay in dead storage (pending litigation) before going to scrap?
-Stef
It all seemed fine at first ...
I got to Penn Station about 5:15 this afternoon. Everything seemed okay, crowds no larger than usual for a Wednesday. I went down to Track 16 to get the 5:23 to Long Beach - I connect at Jamaica to a Ronkonkoma train, then at Ronkonkoma to the Greenport shuttle for Medford. Train's at the platform, I board, get a seat, figure it'll be a routine ride. In my dreams. 5:23 comes around and we aren't moving. A few minutes later, the conductor announces that due to signal problems at the east end of the tunnels, we're going to be delayed for a while. He has no estimate on how long it'll be. Meanwhile, the crowds are building on the platform, waiting for the 5:41 express to Ronkonkoma, which also leaves from Track 16. Finally, at about 5:50, I hear the station P.A. announce that the 5:41 will be leaving from Track 21. I start to think, we're not moving anywhere, the train I'm on may not be an "guaranteed" Greenport connection, maybe I should get the 5:41 because that is a guaranteed connection and might get to Ronkonkoma first.
Bad move. I used that elevated walkway on the west end of the station to get to Track 21. It was an absolute nightmare, more crowded than anything I've experienced on the subway. It's a miracle that no one (as far as I know!) got trampled to death. After several minutes, I finally got to Track 21 just as the 5:41 (by this time more than 20 minutes late) pulled in. The fun was just starting. Now, the 5:41 normally has 10 cars and is filled to capacity with many standees. Yet the train now pulling in has only SIX cars!!! Huge mobs rushed the doors, quickly filling every seat, with standees jamming the vestibules and the aisles. The conductor announced "All Aboard" with probably hundreds of people still on the platform unable to squeeze onto the train. I, of course, was among them, having delayed in leaving the train on Track 15. Realizing that it would be impossible to board, I gave up and went back to Track 15, needless to say once again fighting my way through a seething mob. I finally got back to Track 15 ... just as the 5:23 pulled out. Isn't commuting fun :-)
(BTW - I finally got onto the 6:21 to Ronkonkoma, which didn't leave until after 7 and then *crawled* through the tunnel. I finally got to Ronkonkoma at about 8:20, where my wife picked me up. I was not a happy camper).
It's nice every now and then to hear a little humor in our hum drum existence. On a 6:15 NJtransit train pulling into Hoboken Terminal the following was hear over the speakers..(E= Train Enginener, C= Conductor) E:"Hey Jimmy were going somewhere new today, I'll tell you in a second" E:"Where going upto the northside...ummmmm....track 7. So the doors will be opening on the south side.(at Hoboken for those who don't know the tracks run north to south from 1 to 13, the Electric MUs usually use the higher number tracks...i.e. 10,11. etc.) C:"Which side??" E:"South S-O-U-T-H"(laughter inthe back ground) C: "Which side is south??" E:"Ok Let me put it to you this way. If your facing forward in the train, it would be on your right" (more laughter in the background) C:OOOOOOHHHH!!!!...At that point everyone on board the train was in stiches.......
In the NY Daily News Thursday July 8, page 30, is an article about the #1 and 9 trains and the A and C lines might not be back to normal for the morning rush hour.
When the good folks of SubTalk reads the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd returning from vacation.
Not quite related: When the power returns to the station, new batteries will have to be installed in every turnstile, the main computer in the station (the end turnstile-the metal wall to the left at the last turnstile) plsu the computer in the booth.
If the mayor does sue Con ED he should recover the overtime paid for shuttle buses and for transit expenses.
My office is implementing a four-day work week (extra hours four days, off the fifth), so that enables me to use a weekday to take my son on trains that don't run weekends (assuming it ever goes below 90). I recall that the Newark City Subway would only be running weekdays through the summer. Is this still the case? Are those 1940s-vintage cars we rode on our June 4 trip still in service, ringing bell and all? If so, that, along with the Slant-40-esque low front windows on PATH would make a fantastic trip for a three-and-a-half year old. Any info would be appreciated.
I also figure we'll go on the 'Q' again and hope there's no bellowing religious fanatic on it; however, track work is causing midday 'Q's to run local Brighton-bound from Prospect to Kings. This would take much of the edge off what makes the 'Q' great.
Those PCCs are still running weekdays 'till about 8 PM ... HOWEVER they're planning a two week shut down in August.
You'll now see more of them have Pantographs as well as trolley poles. May I suggest you get off PATH at Exchange Place to see how deep the cut is there, i.e. very long escalator. Also Hoboken has 20 NJT tracks, and a ferry slip. From there you can get a nice photo of Manhattan.
Mr t__:^)
18 NJT tracks, but who's counting.
[18 NJT tracks, but who's counting.]
Our "Field Trip" tour guide said there were 20, but that 19 & 20 weren't being used for pass service now. We walked from 1 thru 16 or 17 then went to shoreline for photo of Manhattan. #1 is interesting, it's about 1/2 as long as the others and didn't look like it gets used very much. We also walked to the end of #2 to view the switches, see the old DL&W cornice, & get a nice view of the various equip. layed up. We also saw the new & old ferry slips.
Mr t__:^)
The tracks are numbers and numbers do go up to 20. Some tracks have been shortened and some are no longer used (19 and 20) ezxcept for specials such as the annual 614 steam excursion trips to Port Jervis
I wasn't kidding you guys about that rat, but I enjoyed reading all of the responses though. Take care.
In the Sunday Times there was an article in the Metro Section about improved transit services to the Rockaways, basically new high speed ferry service. There was a picture of an old pier on 169th street with an abandoned set of tracks leading to it.
Does anyone know what these tracks may have been a part of??
Thanks.
I think they were originally intended as a shuttle service to Flushing Meadow Park for the World's Fair(and then ultimately Shea Stadium). I think the project was aborted because of NYC budget difficulties and after 10 years of bureaucratic battles the plans for this service were officially terminated.
I thought this was a message board for my favorite subject: subways. But I see we have gone a little off the subject so I'll contribute my 2 pennies.
I just love how for the past five years and counting all you hear is complaining and moaning about this "awful" man named Rudy.
Well, he is not perfect (then again the only perfect people are already dead), but this "awful" man has reduced crime and made the city a better place to live. And spare me the police brutality statistics.
Most decent people I know may not be in love with the man, but they can at least give credit where credit is due.
And as for being paranoid, consider the fact that the man has cut into the business of some dangerous people (ie the mafia, drug dealers, and many more) maybe it is only reasonable that he should be a little security conscious. You never know when some nut will annoint him/herself as the John Wilkes Booth of the 20th century.
Maybe people won't fully realize how the city has changed until you get another loser in the mayor's office who does nothing and lets the the city AND subway system deteriorate during the 70's. Maybe we should get another person like we have had in the past who wants the job for 1 reason. He/she wants to have the title and all the benefits that go with it (like tickets to the US Open).
Since I live in North Carolina and New Jersey, not New York, I have tended to refrain from commenting about Rudy, but I will tell you that there has been a lot of discussion, pro and con, about Hizzoner the Mayor in prior threads. If you search back you'll see that all seven or eight sides of the issue have been discussed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yesterday evening on a rush-hour R-40M (L) I heard a racket just beyond the New Lots station. Upon leaving that station I saw the source of the din -- two EMF(?) LIRR-colored diesels pulling a train of combined oil and boxcars. It was headed north-east (toward Jamaica), and the time was approx. 6:20 p.m.
Obviously, the predicted increase in use of the Bay Ridge Line because of the breakup of Conrail has begun. Nice to see a big train of freight making it's way through the proud County of Kings.
Doug aka BMTman
[two EMF(?) LIRR-colored diesels ... pulling freight cars]
Weren't they NY&A Ry green ?
I saw a couple of the GP10s ? south of Amtrak Sunnyside 6/29.
Mr t__:^)
Hi, Thurston.
Yeah, it was a pair of the EMD's that LIRR has (or at least HAD used on their long-haul Montauk and/or Greenport runs before the new diesel-electric units arrived). I wasn't able to get their numbers, but I know LIRR doesn't have alot of them anyhow, so to ID them should be easy. And yes, they were in the standard LIRR blue w/white stripe (in this case with a wavy bend in the stripe toward the cab).
That had to have been the longest freight train I'd ever seen on the Bay Ridge. Judging from the push-pull configuration of the diesels, I would have to assume that the destination was other than Fresh Pond or Sunnyside, but points much further east.
BTW, I forgot to mention that every few weeks, NY & A will leave their yellow 'Railbox' boxcar over behind the Livonia station of the 'L', 'parked' on a decrepted siding.
Doug aka BMTman
News of the increased activity reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask. Does anyone know what's going on at the Brooklyn Army Terminal yard?
There have been two cuts of covered hoppers there for about 2 weeks now, and there is also some construction going on at the SE corner of the yard -- right at the shoreline -- including a floating crane.
My first thought was that they might be installing a new floatbridge, but I guess it's just as possible that it's something related to the neighboring Owl Head sewage plant. Any information out there? Are the cars waiting for the construction to be finished?
I don't know but I imagine it has something to do with the New York Regional Rail Corp. (Cross Harbor Railroad), successor to the Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal and New York Dock RR.
They have an exclusive contract with NSC for car floats across NY Harbor, have interchanges with NSC, SBK, NY&A and others and high hopes for the future.
With any available time (and weather permitting) I plan to investigate the Bush Terminal rail yards. I will report on my findings. (The visit will also serve me well to 'scout' out the area should a late summer railfan trip materialize).
Doug aka BMTman
Why, at the Times Square stop, of the Grand Central Shuttle is there a Track 1, a Track 3, and a Track 4, but no Track 2??
[Why, at the Times Square stop, of the Grand Central Shuttle is there a Track 1, a Track 3, and a Track 4, but no Track 2??]
It has to do with the origins of the Shuttle. It was built as part of the IRT mainline in 1904, running from City Hall to the Upper West Side, and as such had four tracks. Completion of the IRT "H" pattern some years later meant that the Grand Central - Times Square section was no longer part of the mainline. As a result, the section was converted to shuttle use, without need for four tracks. This later resulted in elimination of Track 2 as a through-running track.
Times Square was a local stop. So to use three tracks for the shuttle, they needed to build a platform over one of the former express tracks.
Was there also a trackway in the corridor going from the Times Sq. Station to Grand Central?
It's obvious from the construction of the current walkway East of the Grand Central end of the Shuttle that it did extend a bit East.
I can't find the information on this site right now (I'm sure it's there - Dave can you point out where?), but the Grand Central end of the Shuttle was planned at one time to be located closer to the other lines than it currently is. When the line was severed in 1918 from the original IRT mainline and made a shuttle, the intention was to create a new station closer to the Lexington Avenue line for the Shuttle. Trackways were created (as I recall, the original trackway for the IRT dropped grade right beyond the present station) that would have resulted in a two-track terminal station. It was quickly realized, from the passenger volume using the shuttle, that this wasn't going to be sufficient, the trackways were covered over with wood, and the existing station was left alone. Eventually the trackways were filled. Until a few years ago you could see the outline in the floor of where the trackways were located; I think that's all been obscured now, but I haven't looked in a while so they might still be visible and I just don't realize it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think it's in the "Disused and Abandoned Stations" area of this website.
Regards,
subfan
Thanks - for some reason I didn't check Brennan's pages. For the benefit of anyone else following this thread, it's an offsite link from here, at Disused and Abandoned Subway Stations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I haven't been on the shuttle in a while (I use the 7 when I need to go between the IRTs and am not in a hurry), but i believe the hallway has been tiled. Even if it hasn't, it will soon be.
Read this site! You'll learn a lot about such things.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A 1928 drawing for GCT shows the Lexington Line column work. In the current walkway between the Lex and Shuttle, it shows two IRT stub tracks adjacent to a single raised platform. Where one now changes elevation on a ramp near the Lex, is on the original ramp for that purpose. The two stubs connected to the shuttle tracks 3 & 4 with turnouts. I don't know anything about the actual operation or its duration.
According to the history posted elsewhere on this site, there were plans to extend the shuttle down the corridor closer to the Lexington Ave. line, but these plans were never actually implemented, because they decided that two tracks for the shuttle provided insufficient capacity, and there wasn't room to extend three tracks.
The trackways that had been built down the current corridor were therefore covered over, and it became the walkway it is today, without ever having seen actual train service.
There was a plan put forth as part of the "H" System construction to utilize the two north tracks of for the shuttle and the two south tracks for the Flushing Line. To this end trackways and a single island platform were constructed east from the present bumping blocks to the Contract III Grand Central Station. At the time (1918) this was being done passengers transfered between the Contract I and Contract III station via the upper passageway which at that time was within the fare control zone.
This extended station for the shuttle was never used and the trackways were boarded over and later filled with concrete.
There were at least two reasons for this plan not being implemented.
A) nothing short of a cog railway could get the Flushing Line trains up from their level to the level of the shuttle.
B) A two track shuttle with a single island platform would have been overwhelmed by the heavy traffic as was already in evidence in 1918 so the decision was made to build platforms over track 2 at Times Sq and GCT and utilize three tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR334
At what station in the New York City Subway System are you at if there are 2 downtown trains pulling out of the station but headed in exact oposite directions??
53rd and 7th.
How long was one trip on the C from B.116 to Bedford Park Blvd back in the day?
1 hour and 40 minutes. If you had the displeasure of doing it on an old R10 you ears would be ringing by the time you hit Yankee Stadium.
BTW, I think that old CC route is the only line toever serve all 4 boro's (Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan and the Bronx)
The regular C did not serve the 4 boroughs?
Yes, until 92 when it was permanently cut back to Euclid Ave. and replaced with the present day shuttle.
How do you prononce it? BOO-RAY or BURRRR??????????
I have heard:
Bure-ray (as in puray)
Bure-ree
Bure (as in pure)
(I think the last onhe is the correct pronounciation)
But I never heard BOO-RAY or BURRRR
Which reminds me of the great debate among those who ride the Purple (Evanston) Line here in Chicago (or at least myself and my sister): how do you pronounce "Noyes" (one of the stops on the line, of course)? Is it "noise" or "no-yez"?
Before you answer, Chicagoans pronounce the name of Devon street as "de-VAHN" not "DE-vuhn" so the obvious answer may not be the right one. (^;
Oh John if you rode buses years back you might have heard "Gay-tee" and "Sky-lur"--two well known German authors honored by streets on the near North Side. On the other hand perhaps Todd can give the common version of "Bo-doyn" When I lived in NY it was "Hoyt-skimmer-horn"
You mean it's not "Skimmer-horn"?
It's "Skermer-horn". And the station walls don't mention "Schermerhorn" - just "Hoyt".
Wayne
In Bah-stin we say "Bow-din" with a bit more emphasis on the 'bow' than the 'din.' But hey, I'm a Noo Yawkah at heart... in fact writing this from CBS H/Q at 51 W. 52 St! In just a few short hours I'll be off the air, back underground, and enjoying listening to various renditions of "Watch Da Clozin Dawz."
Speaking of which, I rode on two trains yesterday that had terrific conductor announcements. One was courtesy of one our SubTalk regulars on the R. The second, on the Q, made the standard between-station announcement, then followed it up with, "Once again ladies and gentlemen, we are now entering West 4th Street!" Of course, I would have added the current temperature :-)
I have heard by various conductors:
-ROSE-velt vs. ROOSE-velt
-COR-tel-you vs. Cor-TEL-you
-Van WICK vs. Van WYKE
-ZER-a-ga vs. Zer-EE-ga
-DIKE-man vs. DICK-man
-INTERVAL instead of Intervale
-THROOP vs. TROOP
-Grand Avenue/NEWTON (as in Fig)
-HEW-sten vs. HOW-ston
-SOMETHIN' vs. Sutphin
-Mont-ROSS vs. Mont-ROSE
Don't even get me started on Kosciusko! (I took that spelling right off the map.)
Not MTA-related, but some 5 p.m. traffic reporter (Channel 4, I think) advised us of an accident on the WAN-TAG Parkway near Jones Beach.
-
That's KOSCIUSZKO (pronounced ka-SHOO-shko). And I've heard an announcer or two call out "SUFFERIN' Boulevard"
Next time I'm on the J I'll check, but I think the station sign has the "z" in Kosciuszko.
Wayne
WAN-TAG? Is that a new One tag system to combine all of the electronic toll collection in the US? Like I-Pass, EZ-Pass, E-Pass, Fast Lane, M-Tag?
Good one :) i really like that
try my stop
Bure -RE vs. bure
I think "B'you-ray" (Bure-Ray) is the correct pronunciation.
Some time ago I saw "Buhre-Crosby Avenue" on a non-TA issue map - did this sign ever appear in the station?
Wayne
No. The station has always been Buhre Avenue. In fact it was only until a few years ago that the TA added the additional names to its maps. The only station on the Pelham Line to actully receive new signs to go along with the new name is Morrison-Soundview Avenues.
I spent the very early part of my childhood (1950's) in that area and the station was only called Soundview Avenue.
It's "Byoor" Avenue. There is a street called Burr Ave. not too far away though - it runs from Pelham Parkway South almost to the Pelham Bay Park subway station. The eastbound Bx12 bus runs the length of Burr Ave.
A better question might be why the station is called Buhre Ave. rather than Crosby Ave. Buhre is a narrow side street, Crosby is a major shopping street. Both intersect Westchester Ave. (route of the #6 train) at the same point.
Yes but the entrance is on that side
Im right now constucting my versio of the 2Av line. So far it will consists of these lines: J,P,W, and Z. Each of these lines travel to the Bronx. One line to Coop City. One to the Country Club area. Finally the express/local service to Williamsbridge via Third Av. More to follow.................
P-2Av Local: Houston St---Baychester Av/Coop City, Bx.
J-2Av Express/Third Av Local: Jamaica Ctr---E.233/Laconia Av, Bx
W-2Av local/Bway Express via 63St: Whitehall St----Country Club, Bx.
Z-2Av Express/Third Av Express: Jamaica Ctr---Gun Hill Rd, Bx.
Z-" " " " " " " " " " " " Houston St---Gun Hill Rd, Bx.(Middays,Weekends)
Stations to follow........................
I made up the 8 and 9 which started at the old 3rd Ave El station at Gun Hill Road, went over to the Metro North, ran it its right of way until Fordham Road, went undeground, followed 3rd Avenue down to the river, went under it, and then went down 2nd Avenue to Houston Street, continued on to Chrystie Street, then onto the Bowery, then onto Worth, turned under Hammil Place to Centre Street and met up with the Lexington Avenue IRT. I made the line as an IRT line, not an IND/BMT one. It hooks up with the Lexington Avenue Line north of Brooklyn Bridge. The 8 is a local at all times, 9 is express and runs from 5:30 AM to 9 PM M-F. Stations are as follows:
* indicates 9 stops at this station
** indicates only 9 stops at this station
(A, B, 1, 2) are available transfers
All other stations are 8 only
Gun Hill Road* (2, 5)
Bronx River Parkway*
204th Street
NY Botanical Garden (Moushlou Parkway)
Fordham Road*
184th Street
E Tremont Avenue*
Claremont Parkway
169th Street
162nd Street
156th Street
149th Street* (2, 5)
138th Street (6)
125th Street*
116th Street
106th Street
96th Street
86th Street*
79th Street
72nd Street
61st Street* (B, N, Q, R)
53rd Street (E, F)
42nd Street* (7)
34th Street*
23rd Street
14th Street* (L)
8th Street
Houston Street (F)
Grand Street (B, D, Q)
Chatham Square
Brooklyn Bridge* (4, 5, 6)
Fulton Street** (2, 3, 4, 5, A, C, J, M, Z)
Wall Street** (4, 5)
Bowling Green** (4, 5)
Well I had intended it to be an IRT line but, I am trying to work with what is already out there................
Here's my idea:
From underneath the present day E180th St. station
the new line would run underneath 180th st, turning
on to 3rd Ave, with stops at Crotona Ave, Claremont
Pkwy, E169th St, E163rd St, E149th St (with a
transfer to the 2/5) and E138th St (with a transfer
to the 6). This line would be 2 tracks only. The
northern end would be connected to the Unionport
yard and it would be converted to Division B
standards. The Metro-North ROW is needed presently
and shouldn't really be taken over by the subway.
The line would continue under the Harlem River to
125th and second, which would be a four track
station and the northern terminal for all 2nd Ave
locals (like 168th on the west-side IND). The line
would then assume a normal express/local
configuration until it reached 72nd/2nd. The
stations would be: 110th/2nd, 96th/2nd, and
86th/2nd. All these would be local stops, and 72nd
would be express. South of 72nd a 2 track branch
would leave at 63rd and connect into the BMT B'way
line (like the B/D branch into the 53rd st line
south of 59th). The line would then continue down
to Houston and 2nd, with a transfer to the 6th Ave.
line. The stations would be: 57th/2nd (local), 50th
and 2nd (local), 42nd and 2nd (express, and a
connecting tunnel to Grand Central and the 4, 5, 6,
7, and S lines), 34th/2nd (express) 23rd/2nd
(local), 14th and 2nd (local, with a transfer to the
L at the 3rd Ave. station) and E4th st. (local).
At Houston/2nd, the line would split, with the
express tracks turning west into Delancy St and
connecting to the present day J/M line at Essex St.
The line would then continue over the Willy B to
Brooklyn and Queens. The stations along the J and M
lines would have to be extended for the use of 600
ft. trains. 75 ft. subway cars would have to be
banned from these lines because of some tight
curves, especially at Crescent. St. The J, M and Z
would then become the new 2nd Ave expresses. This
would have a huge benefit for JMZ riders by having a
direct link to midtown. It might also ease crowding
on the E because the new JZ line would probably draw
even more people away from the Queens Blvd. line.
The local tracks would continue south from Houston
St., turn onto Chrystie St. and link up with the
6th. Ave. line at Grand St, with the station being
expanded to 4 tracks and 2 island platforms. The 2nd
Ave. local would be against the wall and the 6th
Ave. express coming of the Manhattan Bridge would be
in the middle. After Grand St. the tracks would
continue along Chrystie until Canal St, where it
would curve east to connect to the old, abandoned
Nassau St. Loop tracks that end just short of the
bridge. The locals would then continue along these
tracks to Chambers St. and continue along Nassau to
Broad St. This would integrate the new line to all
divisions of the BMT (Southern and Eastern).
Service would be as follows:
J 2nd Ave Express:
Jamaica Center to 180th St. via Willy B and 2nd Ave
express tracks, all times. Local in Manhattan
nights.
K 2nd Ave Local:
125th and 2nd Ave to 95th st/Brooklyn via 2nd Ave local,
Nassau St line, Montague St. tunnel and 4th Ave.
Local, Weekdays 5:30 AM to 10:00 PM. Other times it
would terminate at Broad St. except for 12:00 AM to
5:30 AM, where there would be no service.
M 2nd Ave Local:
Metropolitian Ave to 125th/2nd via Myrtle Ave line,
Willy B, and 2nd Ave. local, weekdays from 6 AM to 9 PM. Other times as a shuttle from Metro to
Myrtle/Bway.
Q Broadway/2nd Ave Express:
From Claremont Pkway (that station would be 3 tracks
for the Q to use to terminate there) along the Bronx
portion of the line, then down the 2nd Ave. Express
tracks to 72nd./2nd. Then along 63rd. St and down
the Broadway express tracks and Brighton express
tracks to Brighton Beach, 6AM to 9 PM. No service
all other times.
Z 2nd Ave. Express:
Identical to J, rush hours only, skip-stop in peak
direction past Myrtle/Bway.
So the new line would have the J, Z, and Q running
in the Bronx and down the express tracks, the M and
K running local from 125th, with the Q branching off
at 72nd and the M switching over to the express at
Houston St. he K would continue running to the
Grand St. stop and then along the Nassau Line to
Brooklyn.
Of course this plan would take 25 years to build and
cost more than the Apollo program that put a man on
the moon. But I think it's a credible plan.
Well, I like yours idea. It is less complicated than mine..... Im still developing stations. My idea will be based on the original second IND plan............
Just drop the new third avenue bronx line to university Avenue. Connections with the D (new terminal at Gun Hill Road) and no. 4 lines. Besides 6 at 138th Street and 2 and 5 at 149th Street. What do you think? Don't forget, it will be elevated on third.
what about extending the D from 205th streeet along Gun Hill road to a terminal in Co-Op City?
Why don't they just bring the D over to the Gun Hill Road 2/5 line as a new terminal station?
I recently saw a pic of the R110B with a Z sign on it. What is the current roll sign on the R110A and R110B????
IIRC,the R110A doesnt have any roll signs. It's all electronic.
Those automatic signs are impossible to read from a distance. I don't even know why the MTA likes them so much. You can't read them and they keep changing every second or so from the destanation to the avenue of service and back again. I can't differ the C and E at 34th\8th until I see the side of the train AND it has slowed down. And LED displays also don't have the circle around the letter so on Queens Blvd, you have to see the color on the front or pray that the destanation sign stops directly in front of you. Maybe the cars after the R142 and R143 will go back to the old signs like on the R62 and R68 but not showing both destanations at once.
There goes another fan of the R32 bulkhead "signs" :o) No matter how much Windex you use on the glass you STILL can't read 'em. I keep remembering the "O" train (#3918) which was really a "Q" but you couldn't see the tail through the glass.
Wayne
They won't go back. The end signs will most likely always be roll signs (and the R142 will have a roll sign on the end) but the electronic signs offer way to much in flexability as well as cost savings if they decide to do mass route restructuring. I would expect that LEDs would do a much better job of it then LED does, however. And since you really only need 2 colors for the IRT, red and green, LEDs could be used for the side signs as well.
Additionally, they could further modify the system to accept remote updates, so if a train is re-routed, a tranciver could change the signs as the trains were detoured. Ah, in a perfect world.
You can't really read the signs on the other cars to well either, until the train slows down, or from a distance. And they don't change that fast, I think it's about 3.5 seconds or so between phases.
-Hank
What about purple for the 7?
I guess they would just use red for that. For purple you would need blue, and even though those are out, they are more expensive. I do hope they use them on the BMT/IND cars, which have the blue 8th Av line and the gray (R+G+B at half power) L
I hear the 7 isn't getting any new R110A cars but they will get some (if not all) redbirds from the 2, 4, 5, and 6.
That is right! It should stay that way unless the TA exercises the option for extra cars.
They already got the redbird from the 6... Better said the old ones
I've still saw them on the 6 last time I was in New York. I just can't differ the R26, R28, R29, R33, and R36 because they are so much alike. I also saw them still on the 4 from my seat at Yankee Stadium (I had a perfect view of home plate and the subway! :-))
Here's the unit numbers:
R26: 7750-7859
R28: 7860-7959
R29: 8570-8805
R33: 8806-9305
R33WF: 9306-9345
R36WF: 9346-9523 and 9558-9769
R36ML: 9524-9557
You're right; they're almost indistinguishable from one another, except for WF cars which have the picture windows.
Wayne
I heard that they are getting the R-62s. I hope this is the case as the R-33WF must LEAVE PASSENGER SERVICE NOW!!!
Arent the builders for the R110A supposed to make a special 9 car train(3 line) and a 11 car train(7 line)?
Not actually special, just enough cars to be configured that way.
-Hank
One day I rode it to Lefferts, and they were having problems with it, so they took it out of service. I ran to the front to see them change the sign to "Not in service". I saw an orange A (for 6th Av. service to Brighton Beach to replace the Q. This was proposed in the early '90's, and it's on the R-44/46 electronic codes.), a gray K (proposed Canarsie skip stop), and then the train pulled out, so I didn't see the whole sign. I also don't remember the order.
What as the logic in proposing a 6th Ave. A train to Brighton Beach? I do remember during Septembr 1989 the A train was replaced by the Q from Columbus Circle to 207th St. for a few weeks bcause of a major watermain break near 42nd St. and an ensuing problem with asbestos. But that was more of an emergency situation (A trains had to terminate at Penn Station), not really a serious idea ...
That became the model of the severe cutbacks the TA tried to implement in the early 90's. They were going to completely eliminate C service, make the B run to 21st at all times, and make the A the local, and the Q the exp. to 207th. When people objected for nostalgic reasons, they changed the express to an orange A to Brighton and propsed an H beginning at 34th St that would replace the A to the Rockaways. (50th st riders to CPW would have to change from the E to the D at 53rd.) But noone went for this either, and they gave up on the whole thing.
Wrote an article for the AVA newsletter, The Farebox, for those that don't know it's a token collector's group. Yesterday got a snail-mail copy of a July 2nd article from the Washington Post by Rob Pegoraro from a fellow AVA member.
Talks about failed attempts at Manhattan and Atlanta (assume they ment the debit SMART cards issued thru a bank for upper West Siders a couple of years ago).
Also:
- "13,300 Smar'Trip cards have been sold so far."
- Good for Metro trains, parking and morning coffee.
- "Loans" you one last ride when you use up the money. I guess the turnstile beeps or otherwise informs you of this.
- Next year expands to buses.
- They "hope" to expand to Dash, Ride-On buses, Virginia Ry Express, MARC and toll roads ...himmmmm, MTA operates TBTA bridges now, maybe the E-Z-Pass will be replaced by a Smart Card good underground and on the highways ????
- You can "register" your SmarTrip card at www.wmata.com to ensure that if its lost or stolen you can stop someone else useing it and get a replacement. W-O-W why didn't one of the suits at MTA think of that?
BTW: Same turnstile/farebox mfg at Washington & NYC.
Copywrite Disclaimer: Didn't quote much text & identified publ & author.
Mr t__:^)
- They "hope" to expand to Dash, Ride-On buses, Virginia Ry Express, MARC and toll roads ...himmmmm, MTA operates TBTA bridges now, maybe the E-Z-Pass will be replaced by a Smart Card good underground and on the highways ????
E-Z Pass should not be replaced but the smart cards should be integrated into that system. That would make the most sense. One account for all travel needs. Like Mobil's speedpass, which offers choice in methods (on car or on key-ring) people could carry around an E-Z/Smart-Card Pass.
Remember, the idea behind E-Z Pass would be one service for the entire North East corridor. Of course, only New York State and parts of NJ, DE and VA are using it to date.
EZ-Pass? Spare us! I dread the installation on the GSP. I've heard too many horror stories about double charges with EZ-Pass to ever want it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have used E-Z pass now for over a year on several different roadways. It is great. I have also yet to get a violation flag added to my account. For me it has saved a lot of time, not to mention money -- especially going to Atlantic City via the AC Expy. There will always be horror stories.
But first, at least for NJ, they need to get the sensors installed.
I believe that Maryland is getting into the "E-Z Pass" system. We now have M-TAG (Same system? Different Name),it is really a time-saver. Vehicles (right now cars/light trucks, but eventually......) just zip right through the reserved lanes. All tollbooths on the two tunnels (Harbor and Ft. McHenry) have M-TAG readers, but only one lane per direction is reserved.
There was an article in our local paper (Baltimore Sun, AKA "Fishwrap") touting the system and noting that soon MD would join NY,NJ, etc. in one system.
I'm still leery of the whole thing. Images of Big Brother come to mind. I don't like the potential for the government to track my comings and goings - I know they have the means to do much of that already, but we the citizens don't need to give them any more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since I'm not a criminal, I really don't care if the government knows where I go, how I go and how much I spend. And since I'm not a criminal I don't see any reason with the millions of people there are, that the government should choose to track my patterns for kicks.
Most Soviets weren't criminals, either, but the KGB still tracked them like they were. I view EZ-Pass in the same light.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As a person who pays tolls everyday on the PA turnpike I look forward to E-Z Pass. Waiting in line behind people who haven't a clue as how to use a turnpike is a pain. The same goes for having to make sure you have the exact change. It is not required on the PA turnpike but it makes things go faster. Everyone who is worried about the goverment using it to track you, did you ever think it might give you an alibi? If you are going to commit a crime disable the E-Z Pass and get a ticket
It's nice that I don't live in a totalitarian state that has a committee of government safety (KGB). If you want to believe that the government is out to get you, that's fine, but I am not going to buy you that new tin foil hat you need.
Anon_e_mouse: that is the great thing about living in the US... it is your choice to use the service or not. I am against it being mandatory, but I am sure happy the service is there.
And besides, there are already many other ways in place to track us in everyday life, right down to those shopping club cards.
We have "Fastlane" for use on the Mass Turnpike and Boston Harbor tunnels/bridge. Allegedly it will be compatible with EZ Pass later this year. But the system I use to go from Boston to Seashore (on the Maine Turnpike) is a very different technology, so I have to have two transponders in my vehicle. And the Hampton tolls, on I-95 in NH is coin only. It would terrific to have some commonality here!
The SmarTrip card doesn't need an addfare transaction if you don't have enough money. The faregate says, for example, BL: 1.10 VALUE: -0.05. You won't be able to enter the system until there is at least +0.05 on the card. In the example above, when you added money, if you put in a 5, you'd only get 4.95.
Metrobus and the other bus services in the area will be getting the targets sometime in the future (I heard a few years), but I'm not sure if MARC and the tollroads will have it as a payment option.
Also, you can get more than coffee with the card. Numerous stores in the DC area take part in a program (I think they call it passavers) where you get a discount if you show your metro pass.
The Washington Post article was by a "Staff Writer", but at the bottom was a plug for WMATA which made me think it was drafted by someone in the transit agency. Thanks for the additional input.
Mr t__:^)
At what station are you at in the new york city subway system if there are two downtown trains departing the station but heading in exact oposite directions???
7th Ave (Manhattan) & 53rd ST. D / E depart in opposite directions heading downtown.
--Mark
The B also goes on the D track when the Q operates.
7th/53rd.
Where are you on the system if four different northbound trains are departing in opposite directions?
stumped? where? can 4 trains depart in oposite directions?
Atlanic Avenue??
It's a single station complex. Two northbound trains depart in one direction. Two in the opposite direction. Help any?
Coney Island, of course. The 'B' and 'N' depart in the northerly direction; the 'D' and 'F' depart in the southerly direction and immediately make a sharp turn east.
OK, so which line travels through the same station twice on one run? (Major trick question)
< OK, so which line travels through the same station twice on one run? (Major trick question) >
The D Line. 7th Avenue (again). In Brooklyn, on Flatbush Ave. In Manhattan, on 53rd Street.
Plus, the D made 7th Avenue twice when it used to run down Culver.
OK, here's another: we know several streets/avenues, that are in both Manhattan and the Bronx (Broadway, 3rd Avenue, etc.) Name one that is in Manhattan and Brooklyn (not a trick question).
Fulton St.
I would also say Grand, but Grand St. Bklyn is further north than Manh. (they may still have been connected by a ferry at one time, or something.
Also Broadway....remember....the J used to the Broadway(Brooklyn) Line....
< Also Broadway....remember....the J used to the Broadway(Brooklyn) Line >
I meant the same street, not the same street name. Fulton Street is the only one I know of where the Brooklyn street was intended as a continuation of the Manhattan one (and the two streets were connected by the Fulton Ferry).
Broadway Brooklyn is arguably an extension of Delancey Street (does anyone actually call it Schiff Parkway?)
[Broadway Brooklyn is arguably an extension of Delancey Street (does anyone actually call it Schiff Parkway?)]
Schiff Parkway? Was that an old name for Delancey Street?
< Schiff Parkway? >
It's a newer name (30's?) to honor one of the prominent (and I think philanthropic) Schiff family. Dorothy Schiff was publisher of the New York Post, when it was a liberal paper.
I think it showed on some Hagstrom maps, but I'm not sure if the name appears/appeared on any street signs.
You mean kind of like the Belt Pkwy which is also called the Lief Ericson drive on some maps but not on street signs?
--Mark
My understanding is that there was a fight to have the Varranzano Bridge named after Lief Erikson as compensation for the bridge's construction so vitally upsetting the community of Little Norway.
And to think that today you could probably count the number of people of Norweign descent living in Bay Ridge on your hands!
Bay Ridge is now predominately, Irish, and Italian, with a growing smidgen of Asian and Pakistani for good measure.
Indeed, the Belt Parkway goes by THREE different names according to a Hagstrom of the 5 boroughs. As it goes through the Bay Ridge community it is known as Lief Ericson Drive; from there going East (through Sheepshead Bay and Plumb Beach) it is known as Shore Parkway; the rest of the way out to JFK/Sunrise Hwy. merge it is known as The Belt Parkway. For my tastes it should officially be renamed Shore Parkway throughout to avoid confusion for a very practical reason: IT BORDERS THE BROOKLYN SHORELINE and in no way acts as a "belt" which would indicate a run through the middle of the borough.
Anyone agree?
Doug aka BMTman
Going from memory.
There is no piece of road called "Belt Parkway." As constituted in Moses' time, it was known as the "Belt System", popularly "Belt Parkway", an incomplete "belt" which did wrap around most of Brooklyn and Queens as follows:
From the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel to approx 65th Street: GOWANUS PARKWAY; from there to the junction of Conduit Blvd.: SHORE PARKWAY, where it parallels Conduit Blvd.: SOUTHERN PARKWAY (no "STATE"); the piece that turns north up to the junction with Southern State: LAURELTON PARKWAY; from there to a point east of LaGuardia Airport: CROSS ISLAND PARKWAY; from there to the Triborough Bridge: GRAND CENTRAL PARKWAY.
I'm sure some road buff could correct me, but I think that's about right. It was a belt in the sense of girdling the boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens.
My grandparents told me when I was young that the original name of the "Belt Parkway" was the "Circumferential Highway."
Hi, Todd.
Ya know, that name sounds vaguely familiar -- I'm not expert, but you might be right there.
Doug aka BMTman
< My grandparents told me when I was young that the original name of the "Belt Parkway" was the "Circumferential Highway." >
Say that three times fast with a Brooklyn accent!
That would be the 'coy-cum-fuh-rentyal hoyway' which of course should not be confused with Choych Avenyuh.
How would it sound with a Bahston accent?
Could you imagine Neal Busch's traffic report ....
Drivers in Brooklyn, we're flying over the Circumferential Highway now; there's a disabled van in the left lane at Bay Parkway, keep right ....
Forgeddaboudit!!
--Mark
But Mark! I still get confused when Neal (or Tommy K!) mentions the Jackie Robinson. Call me nostalgic, but it's always going to be the Interboro in my mind. (Gee, I wonder if a Hippo R-68 could negotiate the curves on the Interboro :-)
Grand central Parkway????
Grand Central Parkway runs from Triborough Bridge, past LaGuardia, dips down to Kew Gardens, then runs easterly, where it becomes Northern State Parkway at the Nassau County border.
Paul, thanks for the info re: 'Belt Parkway'
Yeah, looks like we'll need a site called RoadTalk ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Road buffs have many fine sites. both locally and nationally.
I recommend Steve Anderson's www.nycroads.com as a good jumping off point.
I'm sorry to say that in depth, sophistication and variety, many of the road sites put many railfan sites to shame. But definitely not www.nycsubway.org, the JoeKorNer, and several others most of us are familiar with.
How about Lexington Avenue?
I'll throw in one of my own:
An E train and a G train depart from Continental Ave. at the same time and are headed in the same direction. Assuming the E train continues onto Brooklyn, it could meet up with that same G train again, yet both trains would now appear to be heading in the opposite direction. At which station would this phenomenon occur?
Fourth ave(if the G is coming off the relay position) and Smith-9 st.Incidentally, whenever I worked the G line, I noticed if you made a connection with an F at Queens Plaza,that same F train would be your follower between Bergen st and Smith-9 sts.
When the E did go to Brooklyn, the meet could have been at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Hoyt-Schremehon Station (I doubt I have the spelling right).
Since they go around loops and there are no crew changes, making both legs part of one run, take your pick: 1/9 Bway local or 6 Lexington local.
Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue???
Wayne
Help me out here guys, I must be getting old or something. I watched the "French Connection" last night with my wife. For the life of me, I couldn't remember the kind of train involved in the big chase scene or even what line it might have been on. I guess I've just lived out in Floral Park too long. Any info would be greatly appreciated. I've got a few ideas, but I'm pretty sure I'm wrong.
The line depicted was the West End (B) line. It runs through the Borough Park and Bensonhurst sections of Brooklyn over New Utrecht Ave. and then terminates at Coney Island. However, if memory serves me correctly, the runaway train collides with an erroneously marked 'N' train (the Sea Beach Line).
It is still one of the classic train-chase sequences of all time.
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks for the information Doug. Now at least I know. Later, Salvo.
Hear hear: Here is the correct info regarding "French Connection":
The line depicted was the West End ("B") line.
The train was an R42, #4572-4573 (and others), which ran along the "B" tracks but was signed up (incorrectly) as "N". Technically, those cars were being used on the "N" at the time (#4550-4595). #4572 was the lead motor. These cars were relatively new and quite clean, this is one reason why they were chosen. (this info courtesy of Steve B)
The train which was "hit" was an R32, unit number unknown. There may not have even been an actual collision, but the movie does give the impression of one. You can clearly see the "B" sign on the last car as the runaway approaches it. It was parked on the center track just north of the 62nd Street station.
Wayne
The "crash" with the R-32 was filmed with the R-42 train backing away from the R-32. Then the film was replayed "in reverse" and the appropriate sound effects added. Pretty effective result!
I'm willing to bet the brakes were thrown into emergency stop to simulate the actual impact with the parked train. The bad guy ends up busting out a door window when his shoulder crashed into it.
There are a few inconsistencies/goofs in the chase sequence:
When Gene Hackman first arrives on the platform at Bay-50th St., the approaching train blasts its horn twice, as if it wasn't going to stop (it did). The cars are R-42s; however, when the scene cuts to the train passing by the stationary camera as it pulls into the station, the cars are R-32s.
After the bad guy boards the train and the doors close, the scene cuts to the motorman's booth, and two loud buzzes can be heard. As we all know, this normally isn't done once the train leaves its terminus.
During the scene in which Hackman has reached the intersection of Stillwell Ave. and 86th St., where the other car smashes into his LeMans, the train directly above him consists of R-32s. However, the train shown in an overhead shot before that scene consists of R-42s.
There are several clips with the camera pointing straight ahead through the railfan window. In some of them, the train is on the local track; in others, it's on the express track.
R-42s 4572-4573 didn't have B signs, which is why they were sporting an N during the movie.
I'm sorry to dissappoint you, but in a conversation with Martin Scorcese (part of the Actor's Studio on BRAVO), he intimated that the sound effects were added in a studio, and the emergency stop sequence was completely staged. The door window was replaced with "candy" for the sequence, which is standard fare in FX when broken glass is called for. Again, the crash was simulated by playing a reversing train in reverse at higher playback speed. The actors were reacting to nothing, as the train was stationary when the interiors were filmed. It is not unusual to find many inconsistencies apparant only to us rail fans in these films (see the many previous threads here on "The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3"). Directors usually patch together many different snippets of film, shot over many hours and sometimes days, for an action sequence like this. If you look really closely, you will even see the same sequence repeated over and over again ala the chase scene from "Bullit". All of this does not reduce the effectiveness of this chase scene, which is regarded widely as one of the greatest, if not THE GREATEST chase sequence of all time!
Car #4572 was the lead motor going northbound on the B (West End) line. It had an end sign displaying an 'N'. I've heard several reasons for this including 'The director wanted the route sign to stand out' or 'it was just an oversight'. The train it collided with was obviously an R-32 on the middle track north of the Bay Pkwy. station.
Trivia question: The conductor in the movie died during the chase sequence. What happened to him in real life?
Side sign said "N" as well. #4550-4595 were the R42s of the "N" back in those days (#4596-4695 were "A"/"AA"/"B", #4696-4807 were "D", etc.). I think the "crash scene" was up by 62nd Street because you see the cars chasing each other down 86th then making the sharp right up New Utrecht Avenue then continue a ways.
Wayne
Anybody know where I can get a plastic model or kit of a PCC car? Thanks.
In HO and N scale Bachmann has some pretty crude models (although the HO model has had the mold recut so it's better than the original). At one time a firm called Q-Car was producing cast resin body kits, including Brooklyn 1001, that fit the Bowser mechanism. Bowser also produces complete metal kits that require quite a bit of filing but look pretty decent when you get through (I've got several, as well as one Q-Car). In 1:50, Corgi produces a non-operating die-cast PCC that is actually correct for Philadelphia; it comes in many different paint schemes (mine is Pacific Electric - nice but the car isn't like any the PE owned).
And there may be others - plus lots of brass.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In 1:50, Corgi produces a non-operating die-cast PCC that is actually correct for Philadelphia
And they have one for Toronto, too. Very nice, I might add.
--Mark
The Corgi 1/50th PCCs are Philadelphia (PTC), Boston (MTA), St. Louis (St L Public Service), Lionel City (no prototype), Pacific Electric, San Francisco (MUNI green and ivory), Cincinnati (nice, but has only one pole), Washington (DC Transit), Los Angeles (MTA green), and Toronto (TTC). There are at least three motorizing kits available, of varying desirability (one, for example, destroys the entire interior to make room for an upright motor--and it has no reversing unit).
One company makes an 'S' gauge motor and the cars look very good running on the narrower track--for the Los Angeles car (which was narrow gauge) it may actually be closer to prototype.
I'm hoping for Brooklyn--for me, preferably the Post-War green and silver rather than the Pre-War brown that's on 1001 at Branford, but both versions would be even better, and maybe even that one-car red and yellow experimental paint job that I only learned about two years ago). I'd also like to see Newark (PSNJ grey would be my preference, but red-white-and-blue would be o.k.).
Mike's Train House has produced Pittsburg and San Francisco PCCs in O gauge, with a DC Transit coming next. These are nice but ride much too high on their tinplate trucks.
Someone mentioned Q Car Company for any number of different models; MTS Imports (used to be Model Traction Supply, I think) will be bringing in Post-War Toronto, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh PCCs according to their ad in the August model magazines (Railroad Model Craftsman, for example--page 14). The train shows occasionally have someone selling cars from other manufacturers or earlier models now out of production.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
RE: the Corgi cars - IIRC, the only one that is prototypically accurate is the original Philadelphia car and scheme. All of the others, while very nice (a PE version is on my mantel) aren't accurate in that the window placement, length, or some other detail (in the case of my PE version, the real ones were double-ended!) is incorrect.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If there are any forty or fifty somethings subway enthusiasts out there, I need your help to prove to my eighteen year old son that there did used to be pinball arcades and orange juice stands in some of the busier stations. Based on what he knows of his lifetime, all subway stations have been filthy. It didn't used to be that way when I was young. You guys know what I mean. Thanks. Salvo.
Yea,14 th street had the strangest food smells coming from all the food stands,you could get pizza,hot dogs,all kinds of pop drinks and orange juce,some ethnic foods also,this was located in the concourse in the subway,is any still there today ?..........Karl M
I've had many a Nedick's Hot Dog and Orange Drink when changeing to the 14th St Canarsie Line from the "A" at Eighth Ave in the 1950's
Needick's was at many stations lncluding the Times Square Complex. Also there was a walk up Bank window on the mezzaniwen at the Borough Hall BMT/IRT Complex.
Time Square near the shuttle had some vendors(hot dogs pizza drinks)
Grand Central again from the shuttle thru walkway to Lex subway Food vendors I believe also a shoe shine stand and some clothing stores.
14st union square the passageway from lexington to BMT also lined with vendors.. and yes the aromas from the different foods were great!
Re:Walkway from Shuttle to Lex: In "The French Connection",Gene Hackman orders a grape drink at the stand at the end of Track #1 on the shuttle while tailing "Frog 1". Another good sequence from a great movie!
At the 86th Street Station on the "R" train, there's a flower shop in the station. Smells better than your average station. There's also the flower shop at 47th-50th St.
You're right. I passed thru 86th St. last week. It certainly does smell better than most stations. IIRC,there was another at 14th & 8th back in the '70's,along with a shop that sold nothing but neckties. At Times Sq. there was the record shop at the top of the ramp leading up from the northbound BMT platform. Someone also mentioned the pretzel booths;these were found on platforms and passageways in almost all major stations. In my yout',they were a source of quick,cheap food during some of my all day joyriding sessions.
Time Square near the shuttle had some vendors(hot dogs pizza drinks)
Grand Central again from the shuttle thru walkway to Lex subway Food vendors I believe also a shoe shine stand and some clothing stores.
14st union square the passageway from lexington to BMT also lined with vendors.. and yes the aromas from the different foods were great!
59 th lexginton ave local platform uptown Needicks or was it nathans the Florist both long gone...
How about the vending machines? They were everywhere. I remember penny gum in cardboard boxes, and soda machines where the cup fell from the top. When the cups ran out the machine ate your money.
Is there anything left today ? what has replaced it ?
The movie "The Warriors" depicted an arcade within the subway but it's not really a source to be trusted. Most of the scenes were filmed at Hoyt-Schermerhorn anyway.
-Dave
I read what you said about most of the scenes from The Warriors being filmed at Hoyt-Schemerhorn...there is one scene where they are running through the, or what is supposed to be, the 96th Street Station on the #1...in the scene, you can see an old-style 96th Street sign...was this scene also filmed at Hoyt?
The station with the 96th St. signs above the platforms is, in fact, Hoyt-Schermerhorn. As usual, they used one of the outer platforms and outer tracks. Other stations which can be seen are Union Square (all three lines which stop there are included, even a brief snippet of the Broadway line Union Square station; the "To 14th St. subway" sign used to be prominently displayed on the station pillars on the Broadway line) plus elevated stations on presumably the Myrtle Ave. line.
Trains were not marked with any consistency at all. One train had an M sign up front; another had a QB/local via bridge sign showing in the side route slot.
I watched this classic about two weeks ago and discovered that during one of the "96th Street" scenes there was a mezzanzine sign reading "Aqueduct Racetrack Special Trains" above a stairwell. This sounds very much like Hoyt-Schmerhorn. Also the train in which two of the characters are nearly run down by is the JFK Express, which ran through H-S.
The two-tone green wall tile and white-tiled pillars are a dead giveaway - the only station which has that combination of elements is Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Wayne
In the final Subway scenes where our heros have a fight in the toilet, just before a skater is seen coming down some ramps which are made out to be Union Square. I cant find these ramps at Union Square. Any ideas where it was shot.
Simon
Swindon UK
On the Canarsie Platform @Union Square there was a sft pretzel cart in PM rush circa 66-70.
Pinball arcades? The only I know of was at 42nd St./8th Ave., and it was outside the turmstiles. Were there ever pinball machines within the fare-paid area?
Orange juice stands, sort of. Nedick's. They had hot dog and orange drink (not juice) stands all over the city, especially at heavily trafficked spots like Grand Central Terminal and Penn Station. There was one within the fare-paid area of the subway at Roosevelt Ave. on the IND Queens Blvd. line. There were also hamburger stands on both ends of the 42nd St. Shuttle. I don't think those were Nedick's, but am not positive. Other stations that sold hot dogs were Columbus Circle (at two spots within the station!) and Broadway-East New York.
And don't forget that, in the 1960's (and probably earlier), there were vending machines that sold candy bars and soft drinks. The candy machines were purely mecahnical devices, so they had presumably been around for many years. There were machines along the walls that sold regular-size chocalate bars and other candy for a dime, and machines mounted on pillars that sold miniature chocalate bars for a nickel. The soda machines were of the kind that dispensed a cup, then filled it with seltzer and soda concentrate from two jets of liquid.
I remember playing in an arcade in the Roosevelt Avenue station in Jackson Heights. The last time I was there it was approximately nine years ago. Does anyone know if it still exists?
Yes, the arcade is still there - outside of the paid-fare zone, up one flight of stairs. There's also a barbershop, shoe repair, jewelery store, newsstand, pastry counter, and (during tax season) a tax-preparation service. All this is from memory but I think it's accurate... it's the corridor I use to get to/from the Q-33 bus which connects to LGA.
Oh yeah----I remember playing pool with my Dad at the Times Sq. staion platform and several tennis matches at the Shea Stadium station. Those were the gold old days with the MTA.
I can't believe all this hype over Sean O'Shea.
This guy used to have a job with the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee to the MTA as an associate director. He lost the job because instead of fighting for the MTA customer, he spent his work days pushing this wacky idea for an elevated train from 86th and B'way through central park and over to the east side. I remember being at a community forum and hearing him speak. He sure did know the subway but he was in over his head.
The July 1999 edition of The Map is now in distribution.
The changes (from May 1999) I have noted so far:
1) The box at the bottom regarding the 63rd St Service changes is gone.
2) The short note about the B & Q above the N/R line where it curved toward 60th St - is gone.
3) They corrected the routes shown in the balloon at Marcy Avenue.
It used to say J M Z now it just says J.
The best place to get the July Map? Where else - The Transit Museum Store in Grand Central.
The M is the only line at Marcy Ave, NOT the J. The J terminates at Myrtle Avenue.
Out of curiosity, is the C the only line at local stops on the Fulton Street IND and marked full time, are the 2 and 3 full time on Lenox Avenue, and is the balloon at Chambers and Fulton now only M and S (not J, M, Z)?
C is not an all time train but runs on Fulton St for most of the day. Service is between 6:30am and 10:30pm?????
Same thing applies to the 2 and 3 on Lenox. 2 is a 24 hour line. 3 runs during most of the day except for about 6 hours at night.
Yes the sign says M and S. However there is also directions on using alternate routes.....
The C was made bold on Fulton, but not the 2 or 3 0n Lenox, and not the J at Gates and Chauncey.
My mistake - it does say M not J. (I had just washed my hands and couldn't do a thing with them.
But the M and Z trains still stop there right?
No, only the M. Not the J or the Z.
Does any one know why the 77th Street IRT Station is at 77th and not 79th? Two blocks doesn't really make a difference to me but it would be nice to at least have a second exit between 78th and 79th open at least part time.
My old stop for work. I used to do volunteer work at Lenox Hill Hospital. MAYBE THATS WHY THERE IS A 77 ST STATION!!!!!!!!!
Lenox Hill Hospital is on 77 and Lex, right above the station......
BTW, Im just joking. Not screaming at you literally.........:):)
My guess is - when the Lex IRT was constructed north of Grand Central in 1918, the stations up to 96th St. closely resembled the parallel IRT 3d Ave. El one block east. The Lex stops are about 9 blocks apart, as were the 3d Ave el stops. Also, both have (had) nine stops from 59th to 125th inclusive.
Lex Ave - 59, 68, 77, 86, 96, 103, 110, 116, 125
3d Ave El - 59, 67, 76, 84, 89, 99, 106, 116, 125
86 and 125 were the original subway express stops (59 did not become an express stop till 1962); 106 and 125 were el express stops.
I was born at Lenox Hill Hospital, as were both of my sons - so I was always happy to find the 77th Street stop on the #6.
with the volume of people entering and exiting 77th st lex there should be another fare area (part time of course). I believe on the Downtown side R248(booth) has eight turnstiles the mezzanine area is cramped when going full tilt and a safety hazard in my opinion.
The biggest safety hazard at that station is the idiots who leap down the stairs and jump in the doors, because, after all, there are no more trains after this one.
Maybe it was a cost saving measure?
You are SO CORRECT !!
Lenox Hill Hospital does seem to be the most likely answer. There are wall mosaics in the station that refer to the hospital. Anyone know when Lenox Hill Hospital first opened on E. 77th St.?
Lenox Hill Hospital was opened there in the 1870s, but it was called the German Hospital until 1918. According to thier 140th anninversary brochure in 1996, when the property was purchased it was purchased at FOURTH (not Park yet) Avenue and 77 street.
When will the fantasy map available for downloading?
With the recent heatwaves, power outages, and independent electrical suppliers. Which companies serve electrical power to the MTA (Subways, LIRR, Metro North)in New York, NJtransit, and Metro North (New Haven line)? Also how exactly do the TAs buy their power? Is it a fixed rate (example: A flat rate for the whole year) or do they pay buy Kilowatt (or Megawatt)hour?
The TA is metered like anyone else. It's just a REAL BIG meter (or really many real big meters, of the same type as used at industrial plants). There are a number of different methods for calculating the actual electric bill that could be used; I don't know the details of how the TA's is calculated.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[ With the recent heatwaves, power outages, and independent electrical
suppliers. Which companies serve electrical power to the MTA (Subways,
LIRR, Metro North)in New York, NJtransit, and Metro North (New Haven
line)? Also how exactly do the TAs buy their power? Is it a fixed rate
(example: A flat rate for the whole year) or do they pay buy Kilowatt
(or Megawatt)hour? ]
Actually, they have a big transformer plugged into the wall at Jay St. Consumption appears on their normal Con-ed bill.
The TA purchases its electricity in bulk from the New York State Power Authority, a state-operated utility.
-Hank
In the NY Daily News Friday July 9, page 6, and the NY Post Friday July 9, page 10 are two article about which NYC trains are the best and which are the worst. In the NY Post article it also lets us know what some of the lines are worth in dollars and cents, most improved, direst line, cleanest line, and most breakdowns. In the NY Daily News article is also tells us what's your ride is really worth, rates some of the subway lines like seat availabilty, cleanliness and announcements rated.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the two articles, your most excellent announcements are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
NY Post article
I can agree with the L train annoucements. THEY SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!
THEY BLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can agree with the L train annoucements. IT SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!
IT BLOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice to know the N gotten a better rating this year. HAaaaRRRRRRAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The News' Article says that the N train has jumped to 6th best. Well, from a Brooklyn standpoint, more riders are probably taking the B train because of its express ride into Manhattan, whereas the N runs local. So it's probably not a problem finding a seat on the N and its less dirty because there are fewer riders on it. This would also explain why the B train is bottom on the list - overcrowding, insufficient service, dirty trains and the R68s.
The article also stated that the MTBF of the 4 train was 162K+ miles (the best) and the R line was 42K+. 42K mile MTBF? The R train doesn't have an exclusive fleet - isn't is a mix of R-32s, R-46s and R-68s? Why would they be less reliable on the R line than, say, the G line? To me a measurement of MTBF doesn't make sense by line - it makes sense by car fleet - unless a line is served exclusively by one set of subway cars, like the F with R-46s and the 7 with the R-36WFs.
The print version of the article has some charts in it that the on-line version does not, indicating which lines are best & worst in certain categories.
Here's The Post article.
--Mark
I agree that the D train is very dirty.
The R is mainly composed of R46s, not really mixed. There are no R68s running on the R line and there are rarely any R32s there either.
Here is how that survey is ludicrous: The F has all R46, and the G & R virtually all R46, the E has a few; individual cars (except the AA cars) can be ran on any line without prejudice. Pre Willy B closure the J/Z/M/L ran the same equipment interchangably (except the slants.) How then can one line have better equipment reliability than the other? It all averages out. Also, to one straphanger volunteer one car may be dirty and that same car to someone else may be acceptable. A car can leave the terminal clean, some slob throws his chicken bones on the floor, some parent changes a baby diaper and throws it on the floor, one of their volunteers gets into that car in mid-trip, and the TA is "charged" for a dirty car. What is the TA supposed to do: have a car cleaner ride in every car as the train goes down the road? Of course not! Announcements: with the air conditioners blasting away, many platform and car announcements are inaudible! The point is their survey is very subjective.
Not only is the survey subjective but the data is not collected according to any meaningful standard. A person stands in a station and peeks into a car. If the train is checked at a station other than a terminal, the checker has all of 20 - 30 seconds to evaluate several catagories. as for PA, the checkers don't use db meters and for HVAC, do not use any kind off temp. probe.
Also the N and R alternate for most of their runs. How can the N score so high and the R so low if they interact as much as they do. Now if the N was crossing the bridge and running express it would be a different story. The only impact on the R is that it is the local service on the known to be overcrowded Queens Line.
I'm elated that "N" (Sea Beach) rates high and the "R" rates so low. It goes back to my childhood. We lived for 10 years close to Queens Plaza where the "R" had its northern terminal. Aside from that stop the train never saw daylight and ended at 95th Street & Fort Hamilton.
It was a real drag. We couldn't wait to get to Times Square and get on a real train like the Sea Beach that would take us over the Manhattan Bridge and then into the bright sunshine and mini-tunnel underpasses on our way to Coney Island. That was a real trip. Or we
could take the Brighton Express to Ebbets Field. That was another gas. The 4th Avenue Local ("R" now)? Forget it!.
Not only is the survey subjective but the data is not collected according to any meaningful standard. A person stands in a station and peeks into a car. If the train is checked at a station other than a terminal, the checker has all of 20 - 30 seconds to evaluate several catagories. as for PA, the checkers don't use db meters and for HVAC, do not use any kind of temp. probe.
I can assure you that Astoria line riders think the the N does not have the least number of riders, is very dirty, and runs very unreliably. In one of the articles, even a #7 rider complained about the long waits during the midnite hours (it is actually 20 minutes like all other lines). The point is most people think THEIR line is WORST. Because they only remember that rare occasion that the railroad "blows up". They forget the good days. Many complain if their trip wind up 5 minutes late. I think they are being unfair. The bottom line: Most people think the other guys grass is greener than his own.
Of course you are right Bill about the subjectivity of the ratings.
In addition, the 7 line is a stand-alone line, which doesn't have to merge/share with others. I'm sure that helps its reliability, and thus (perceived) improved performance.
Are you Todd Glickman the journalist? I'll attach my lengthy response to the Straphangers survey onto your post, because I'm a former reporter myself.
I think the Straphangers Campaign has done many good things, they're a valuable organization, and an independent survey like the Straphangers ratings is a wonderful idea. I just read their latest one, and I'm not expert enough to assess all its findings and methods or object to any of them.
Except for what I think should be a very obvious one---the same one I strenously objected to on this BB last year.
The survey --- anybody, please disagree with me if you seriously can --- clearly gives the impression that NONE of the subway lines provide service that's worth $1.50, and that some of them are "worth" considerably less.
Whatever the other merits of the survey, this is a misleading gimmick for at least a couple of reasons that have nothing to do with observation methods or mixed fleets. Al O'Leary of the TA is right: the cost methodology is "ludicrous."
First ...
... the survey rates a line that provides the "average" level of service as offering a ride "worth" 75 cents. The "top score" is $1.50 -- the actual cost of a token.
The text of the survey report does make this reasonably clear, and the press coverage briefly refers to that scoring system as well. But it's inherently misleading, especially if you're not paying close attention to it.
If the survey had to assign a value to the average ride --- the ride that best approximates the overall level of service in the whole system --- it makes far more sense that it should be $1.50 --- the price millions of riders a day actually pay, in expectation of that ride.
Yes, yes, I realize that the price is preset, and there's no competing subway system to drive it down. So one could argue that the current price is probably too high, and we're all being forced to pay it.
But one could also argue that riders have other options, from buses and cabs to walking (for some Manhattanites) or driving (for some outer-boro types), so they might actually think of the subway as an amazingly good deal (as I do) and so might actually be willing to pay even more overall.
The MTA takes this kind of market analysis into account, at least to some degree, when deciding whether it can get away with raising fares without losing ridership, no?
But maybe the "average" score shouldn't be $1.50. The point here is, there's no good reason --- at least, I've seen no attempt by the Straphangers to provide one --- why they should imply that 75 cents, only half the actual fare, is the proper price for the "average" ride.
Right away, that sets the subway system up in a no-win situation. Even if all the lines improved so much that they were well toward the high end of the Straphangers' scoring range, the public would still get roughly the following impression --- perhaps through the inevitable tabloid headlines: "SUBWAYS BETTER BUT STILL NOT WORTH THE BUCK FIFTY."
When in fact, nothing like that would have been proved.
Second ...
... no matter what scale or baseline you're using, the whole idea of using a dollar figure to express a line's quality is somewhat misleading in itself.
As I've already suggested, the price that a given subway ride is "worth" is most accuratly reflected in what people are willing to pay for it (or would be willing to pay if the price fluctuated in a competitive free market).
Even if the survey is right about the merits of each line relative to each other, and to 1996 service levels, and so on, and even if it also had accurately identified the price people might pay for an "average" ride, and also for a "best" ride, and for a "worst" ride, that by no means proves that the "market price" would vary evenly anywhere in between.
For example, for a ride that's 20 percent better than average, people wouldn't necessarily be willing to pay only 20 percent more. They might feel that once you get 20 percent above average, it's all fine with them, and they'd pay just as much as if it were a perfect ride.
I'm getting picky here now, I know, but the broader point is that the survey makes the subway system look bad through misleading scoring.
The subways desperately need improvement, which the city, the state and the nation are in a historically great position to afford, but the way to spur that is not by trotting out random "prices" that government officials will find it all too easy to discredit. I think that the minute people stop to think about the current scoring system, they'll start to lose confidence in the survey.
It would be far more honest to use a system that doesn't pretend to relate to the price of a token.
It's supposed to be a "report card" --- whatever happened to grades?
Better still, why not give people credit for some intelligence, and just use numbers, while stripping off the dollar figures?
For example, make 50 stand for the average service level in 1996, 1 and 100 for the worst and best service in 1996, and allow for scores above and below that if some lines get even better or worse.
It might not make as big a splash, it's true. But in the long run, it would have more credibility, and that just might help get our elbows out of each other's ribs on the Lex one distant morning.
Tony, I'm Todd Glickman the meteorologist. I work part-time for WCBS Newsradio-88 in NYC, which would make me a broadcast meteorologist, and by the strict definition, not a "journalist." You can see my Web site for more.
Here on SubTalk, I participate where I can with information about the Boston transit system (where I live when not working in NYC); the Seashore Trolley Museum, where I'm an Instructor; and NYC transit systems from my intense interest since growing up in the Bronx, Queens, and Roslyn Heights on LI -- and commuting to NYC from Boston a few times per month for the past 20+ years.
They are right about the 6 having the most infreqeunt service. I don't know how many times I've missed a train, waited 5 minutes for a packed one, and when I get out at 77th, a half empty train comes in.
I'd say the A, B, D, F, N, R, and J are some of the worst lines in the system. They never come frequently, are always as crowded as hell, and all the operators cover the window in the front with the Times on the lines with the full width cab (although I don't think the NY Post cared about that when they made the survey).
Working the A line for years now I can vouch that I know of no one who reads the NY Times so I disagree that we are covering the cab windows with that paper. If you see the Chief Leader or Civil Cervice Centenial, my apologies :0}~ I also disagree with the A line status as it should be in dead last due to our superintendant appreciation days. Did they detail the numerous hot car details of the R-44 fleet in the article too. Id bet we have one of fifteen as non working A/C based on trains ordered in service.
At least you have R32 and R38 cars to help out - their A/C is usually reliable, especially the R32. Last R44 I was on was blowing warm (not hot) air in both trailer cars (5261,5259).
Wayne
The A line will always be my favorite, regardless of equipment. Granted, it's not the same without the R-10s, but such is life. I wanted to say the R-44s should be sent elsewhere, but if they did that, the R-68s might take their place, which would accomplish nothing.
What point are you trying to make? At what time of day and where are the trains crowded as hell and run infrequently? Sounds more like an prejudice against the alphabet than a valid discussion of the issues. I had to ride the #4 & #6 Thursday and found it more crowded and slower than the E or F that I usually ride. From that experience I still can draw no valid comparrison of overall performance. Comparrisons like those in the press this week make good reading but that's all. If you do some research, you'll find that the data such surveys are based on is usually several months old. Many times, the deficiencies have been corrected long before the publication of the survey.
Perhaps one question to you:
While I acknowledge that it is a violation of TA Rules, as a customer, what difference does it make to you (as far as service is concerned) if the train operator covers his crew door glass with newspaper?
At the middle of the PM Rush to wait 5 minutes for a train is outrageous. In DC, at PM rush hour, the Red Line comes every 2-3 minutes and often there are only about 5-10 people standing or about 1-2 seats open. Who wants to wait at rush hour that long for a train only to have there be no room. And even at 10 or 11 AM to wait so long for packed trains is crazy. Maybe when the R110A comes, the won't retire the redbirds and instead improve service on Lex. It is the only line on the east side and there are WAY to many people and not enough trains.
Please remember that the WMATA has a system designed to carry trains at close intervals with little human intervention. The TA has made an effort to reduce speeds recently, because their trains are primarily operated by humans, and, unfortunately, the TA management doesn't trust those humans to any great extent. Therefore long headways and low speeds are the rule in NYC.
(Anyone want to bet on when a computer failure slows Wasahington down?)
You mean it's a violation of TA Rules to cover the pseudo railfan window with newspaper? cool!
Having a rule is one thing. Enforcing it is another.
In response to WMATAGMOH: I have no idea as to where you came up with the idea that the 'J' line was one of the worst in the system.Being a TA employee for 6 years as a conductor and train operator,I have worked every line in the system except the Franklin Shuttle and I can honestly say this;the 'J' line is the only one that consistently runs AHEAD of its schedule and apart from the rush hour,always has seats available(at least when normal service is operated over the bridge with 8 cars). Of course if you ride in the first car all the time,you will never get a seat because the exits on the major stops on the line(to name a few:Eastern Parkway,Crescent St.and Jamaica Center)are right by the first car.However if you go to the center or the rear,you will get a seat,even during the pm rush. One last thing:you cannot compare the Red line in Washington to the Lexington Ave.line because the east side of Manhattan is vastly underserved by the TA considering the amount of people that live along and use the subway,and no matter how many cars you put on the line it will still be way overcrowded.
The A use to be my all time favorite until they put the R44's on that line. It's no surprise it loss the contest.
As a side note - Dave - your site is listed on the Straphangers web page! It said it was interesting and useful...
As appropriated from their website:
STRAPHANGERS CAMPAIGN REPORTS
Recent Releases
How Does Your Subway Line Rate?
A NYPIRG Straphangers Campaign State of the Subways Report
JULY 1999
--Mike
Is it the same way in New York as in Chicago, that the line with the heaviest ridership has the worst equipment?Such as the case here with the Red line(Horward-DanRyan). Which our heaviest line in terms of ridership with the most breadowns and bad orders.
Was channel - surfing last night and saw Michael Jackson's video "BAD"
on VH-1. What subway station was it filmed in?
Bad was filmed at the Hoyt-Schemerhorn station (A/C/G).
Weird Al Yankovic's parody of "Bad", "Fat", was also filmed in the station.
And speaking of film, check out the ABC-TV Movie "Dreams Don't Die". It's from 1982 or so, and follows the exploits of a young NY graffitti writer, who's main target is the NY Subway. It's on the channel 7 late movie every now and again.
In a strange coincidence, BAD was the first on-screen role for Wesley Snipes (he played the leader of the rival gang). Snipes of course starred in "Money Train" and more recently "Blade" that also used subway cars for a crucial scene.
Doug aka BMTman
Does Belgrade or any other Yugoslav city have a tram, trolley, light rail or subway
At one time, yes, there was tram service in Belgrade using Eastern Bloc-built cars (those built since WWII were mechanically PCC clones). What the status of these lines is, given the current political situation over there, I don't know. I'm not sure about a subway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And when Sarajevo was in Yougoslavia, it had ex DC Transit PCC's in service. These included some home brew modifications turning some cars into trailers.
The Sarajevo operator also rebuilt some DCT cars to Articulated units, using the front of one car and the rear of the other. The center joint used 1 B-2 truck and all axles were powered.
There was a thread not long ago which claimed that 2 cars were damaged in the Concourse fire, one of them, which is confirmed to be #2579. What is the 2nd car # involved? Could it have been #2577, or could it have been #2578?
Nick
In that incident, there was just one car damaged. Car #2579 was the only one to suffer any damage. Incidently, no determination has been made as to the primary cause of the incident.
My partner and I are currently writing a contemporary musical about young theatre people, set in New York City, titled "Here & Now."
Since we both see the Subway as "The Great Equalizer," we have already included one terrific song about the trains. If you have an incredible, of just plain funny Subway story - we'd love to hear from you. Email me at PhillNYC@yahoo.com.
Having misidentified Gil Hodges Brooklyn address, I turned to The Source, my big brother Irv (now inside the beltway) who knew a number of the Brooklyn Dodgers, and being four-and-a-half-years older than I, got to meet or even visit them in the era before ballplayers were surrounded by electrified gates, armed Rotweilers and accountants.
He said that he sometimes got to visit Hodges, who lived not far from our aunt in Midwood. At the time, he sez, Gil lived on East 32nd, between K & L. Later, he moved to Bedford Ave.
This same brother also got to meet some of the rock n roll personalities of the era (at the Brooklyn Paramount, of course). Some of those entertainers were awfully nice to a Brooklyn kid...
Paul, did you see my Gil Hodges related post under 'Re: sea beach' of Thur. Jul 8 12:12:32?
I didn't know that Hodges had originally lived in the Brooklyn College vicinity. I used to reside at E. 32nd Street between Glenwood and H just a stones' throw from 'the Junction' (and always got a seat on a rebuilt R-22 or 26 at Flatbush terminal).
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, I did, Doug. That's really interesting stuff.
I never met Gil Hodges (and I don't want to start a flame war with Yankee fans) but I think he may even surpass the late great Joe DiMaggio in the category of "Sports Figures as Great People." Joe was a kind gentle person, and one of the great gentlemen of the sport, but I've heard he could be rather distant. Gil seems to have been everything Joe was, and warm and caring to "the little people," the fans, as well.
BTW, I have a cousin, now in his 70s, who lives on Flatbush Ave., just south of 'the Junction', in one of those newer co-ops. He's been a Midwood resident all his life (except for a few years in Europe during WWII). My uncle lived at Newkirk & E.19th for decades, until he passed on just a couple of years ago at the age of 89.
I loved Brooklyn and would probably still be there if I could've afforded a half-decent house, many years ago.
[I never met Gil Hodges (and I don't want to start a flame war with Yankee fans) but I think he may even surpass the late great Joe DiMaggio in the category of "Sports Figures as Great People." Joe was a kind gentle person, and one of the great gentlemen of the sport, but I've heard he could be rather distant. Gil seems to have been everything Joe was, and warm and caring to "the little people," the fans, as well.]
I recall reading the same thing about Gil Hodges - he didn't have the sort of attitude problem that characterizes all too many of today's athletes. Speaking of which, I was shocked to hear that when Ken Griffey, Jr. made an appearance at the All-Star Cafe several months ago, he was accompanied by at least three bodyguards :-( The old-timers never would have indulged themselves with such nonsense. Oh well, tempis fugit, and all that ...
Don Drysdale, who roomed with Hodges for several years until Gil was drafted by the Mets, spoke of him as a saint.
Those of us who are longtime Met fans feel that Hodges would have remained with the club in some capacity, if not manager, had he not died prematurely, and that the Mets would not have gone down the toilet the way did in the late 70s. Whitey Herzog recalls that M. Donald Grant never questioned anything Hodges did because Gil was such a tower of strength. (Herzog also told Grant to his face that he didn't know beans about baseball.)
I remember to this day when Gil died, on April 2, 1972. We were on our way home from Montreal the following morning and were going through customs when I saw the officer in our lane holding a copy of the Daily News. The headline on the last page said it all: "Gil Hodges, 47, Dead."
Here's two that I know of:
Actor Kevin Dobson, famous as 'Crocker' on the old Kojak series was originaly an LIRR conductor.
The father of Hall-of-Fame Basketball star Kareem Abdul Jabbar was an NYCTA conductor.
Another point:
Where is the transfer point @14-8Av. The main one is boarded up......
Another point:
Where is the transfer point @14-8Av? The main one is boarded up......
What is the most depressing train? I'm not just talking the train itself, but tunnels and surroundings.
I decided to take the Q over the Manhattan bridge and found the tunnels to look quite dingy, especially around Grand street.
Got a good view of it from the front window.
The N and 7 have cleaner tunnels.
In general, the lines such as the 1 and 9, plus 4,5,6 in manhattan are the cleanest, and the least depressing.
I'm sure there are worse lines than the Q, what are they?
Probably the G.
I'd have to say that the J/Z is rather depressing. In Manhattan, it goes through the ludicrously decrepit station at Chambers Street, followed by the tomb-like Bowery station. Things don't improve across the East River, as most of the line's route through Brooklyn goes over run-down, poor neighborhoods.
This isn't to say that the J/Z is bad from a railfan viewpoint. Indeed, there are many interesting sights - the old trolley terminal at Essex/Delancey, the trip over the Williamsburgh Bridge (once it reopens), the Myrtle Junction, the Broadway-East New York complex, the ancient elevated structure over Fulton Street, and the Archer Avenue tunnel. But for non-railfans, who (let's be realistic) make up the vast majority of subway riders, the J/Z practically defines the word "dreary."
I've got a feeling that the commuters just care if the train gets into Manhattan. Unlike you or me, they view the subway as transportation that has to be reliable (unlike the J/Z). We railfans also need the above but also a few fun things along the ride...
Some of my lodge brothers on the net have told me that the Sea Beach in Brooklyn looks like a battlefield of World War I with debris and building materials hovering around the route. I'm glad it was rated the most depressing train. I plan on riding it the first full day I'm in New York, but will try to avoid all those new pit stops through the bowels of Manhattan and catch the Sea Beach at 59th Street just prior to its seeing daylight. Not to sound cocky because that's the last thing I'd want to be but some of you have started calling Mr. Sea Beach. I showed my wife those notes and she loved it, so if some of you want to refer to me as Sea Beach Fred I'd really be delighted. I
have to admit I'm kind of a fanatic on the Sea Beach, maybe a little ridiculous to some of you for a 58 year old to be acting, but I hope all of you will cut me a little slack. Getting on this Web has been a
real treat and I've met a bunch of good people who I already identify
with. This is my school computer I work on, because my daughter won't
let me use hers----even though we bought it for her. How to you like
that? Chao!
Sea Beach Fred has a nice ring to it. Don't feel guilty about the way you feel - it's perfectly understandable. Just make sure you get an N train of slant R-40s or R-32s. The subway brings out the kid in me every time. How else would you explain the fact I still stand in the first car on a regular basis with my nose against the railfan window?
I have to rate the N as my favorite BMT route, although it's lost some of its glitter since being forced to use the Montague St. tunnel. Next to an A train of R-10s, the most rewarding sight to me was an N train of R-32s pulling into any express station along its route.
Steve you have a blood brother. That is how I always rode the trains
My nose was against the window and it usually fogged up the glass. In fact when I was in New York in '91 I made friends with a couple of African-American motormen who got a real kick out of me, a 50 year old acting like a kid on Christmas. One of these gentlemen had a catchy nickname and was supposed to come visit me in California, but I never heard from him. I hope both still work for the transit authority because I'm going to try and look them up. I'm sure they would remember me. I looked pretty silly but had a ball. Maybe I'll see you on a train. I'll be in New York from August 6-19, with three days
in between at Cooperstown. Take care.
[I've got a feeling that the commuters just care if the train gets into Manhattan. Unlike you or me, they view the subway as transportation that has to be reliable (unlike
the J/Z). We railfans also need the above but also a few fun things along the ride...]
I have to agree with you, WMATAGMOH. It's not only drery but extremely slow. The MTA should tear it down and build an entirely new structure from Metropolitan Avenue to Delancy Street and Suphin Blvd to Myrtle Avenue. And don't forget the L from Broadway Junction to Canarsie.
I'd rather be beaten with a stick than made to ride the C local from 168th to Euclid. None of the stations along the way is particularly appealing. Most are old and dark. 81st Street is starting to look a little brighter as the station work continues, but dingy defines the rest of the run.
If you thought those IND stations are dim now, they were far dimmer before they received fluorescent lighting.
At least the C has R-32s and R-38s which move pretty decently. If you take a B train, you're stuck with R-68s. 'Nuff said.
I remember the Fulton St line before the stations were all equipped with flourescent lighting. The local stations looked positively scary, and Broadway/East NY never seemed to have all of the light bulbs working at the same time.
That really brings up an interesting point; I've always thought that when they started introducing florescent lighting,THATS when people started noticing how dirty the subway is....maybe the TA did cut back on cleaning,etc, but I bet of lot of it had to do with he fact you could actuallySEE the grime....??
Lou, you actually bring up a good point. I grew up in Brooklyn roughly in the late fifties through about '70 when I left home. Most all of the elevated and a fair number of the subway stations as I recall were still using light bulbs at the junction of ceiling beams protected by wire guards. Fluorescent lights were around all right, but not as common as they are now. Whether it was just bad lighting or not, it seems to me that the stations at least appeared to be cleaner back then. Of course, that was before the graffiti craze of the seventies and eighties. Dress it up and call it art all you want, to me it still looks like trash. Later, Salvo.
Graffiti isn't art. Picasso is art. Monet is art. Andy Warhol is art (I think). Graffiti is vandalism. And that's just my 2 cents ...
Chris, I totally agree. Salvo.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Graffiti is simply unwanted art, just as a weed is simply a plant that appears where it isn't wanted. I don't like Warhol any more than I like graffiti, but then again I don't care for much of Picasso's works either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
His early works (blue period, etc) which were on display a few years ago at the Met definitely look nothing like subway graffiti.
When they came out with that garffiti coffee table book about 20 years ago with text by Norman Mailer praising the art, I always wondered when was the last time Mailer took the subway, and if he woke up the next morning and found all his house windows decked out in spray paint, would he want to do a sequel to the first book?
Unfortunately, from what I've read about Mailer, he probably would! But you make an excellent point.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The only way graffiti is art is when its put on canvas and is shown at the Metropolitia Museum of Art. If it's on a subway car or the side of a building it's pure vandalism.
I agree! I was simply pointing out the similarity to weeds, and acknowledging that different people perceive things in different ways.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ditto. All that bright, white light highlighted grime that was actually there for decades.
The SEPTA R2 route to Wilmington and Newark. Nothing but abandoned and burnt out buildings. A result of the Navy yard closing.
Who needs regional rail for that; you can see abandoned and burned out buildings on the Market-Frankford El. Seems like half of Philly is like that...
Dont Go dissin Philly until you go around Philly. My neighborhood certainly isnt burned out. Look at NYC with the South Bronx and Broklyn. Philly has quite a few nice neighorhoods. Check Your eyes
[Dont Go dissin Philly until you go around Philly. My neighborhood certainly isnt burned out. Look at NYC with the South Bronx and Broklyn. Philly has quite a few nice neighorhoods. Check Your eyes.]
Philly might have some nice neighborhoods, but the trolley lines and subway-elevated lines certainly DO NOT travel through them.
I remember the Philadelphia of the 1960's. It still had many small businesses and factories where people from the neighborhood worked. Those people then would feed the local neighborhood economony.
My aunt and uncle made their home near M & Kensington for over fifty years. Years ago my cousins and I could run around the neighborhood until all hours of the evening. Would you let you children run on Kensington Avenue today?
I was very depressed to see formally vibrant, working neighborhoods that today have every other house boarded up or burnt out.
No FAHQ, Philadelphia may have some nice neighborhoods, but they are far outweighed by lost neighborhoods.
Jim K.
Chicago (formally lived in Phila. area)
Unfortunately, Jim, you are right on the button here. Kensington has certainly seen better days. It has gone straight down the tubes in the past 20 years. Frankford, especially the area around Church station, is following quickly. The Market St end of the el is looking prosperous by comparison. When I was growing up (mid to late 60's and early 70's), K & A was certainly not the home of the rich and famous but it was at least well kept. Not so today. I had cousins close by and I used to visit and we would walk down Kensington Ave to Kelly's Korner, the old trolley (PRT) shops converted into a 5 and 10 (with trolley rail still in the floor in many places!). It's a different world today.
I wouldn't throw all the blame for the decay along R2 Wilmington on the demise of the Navy Yard. Eastern Delaware County, especially the Chester area, has been hit pretty hard with the loss of manufacturing jobs, much as Phila has suffered.
And, before we 'diss' Phila too greatly, the portion of the 2/5 between the portal and West Farms Square is pretty depressing, although it may be on the way back. On the IRT fan trip a couple of years back, the Van Cortland end of 1 seemed a little drearier than the previous times I was there. And, there's always the Broadway/Brooklyn el's neighborhoods for 'scary' as well as dismal. Phila certainly has no monopoly on the dreary market.
My Dad grew up in Philly. I visit the area about 2-3 times a year. I love the town, my favorite city.
To prove I'm not totally trashing the view of Philly from SEPTA:
The SEPTA trains that run over the traditional PRR mainline to Downington give a good view of several upscale neighborhoods. Nice quaint little towns.
[The SEPTA trains that run over the traditional PRR mainline to Downington give a good view of several upscale neighborhoods. Nice quaint little towns.]
Dear Paoli Local (and I remember the "old" Paoli local complete with MP54's).
You are correct in what you say about the current R5 Malvern-Downingtown ride on SEPTA, formally the PRR Mainline, west of Overbrook. However, the former 52nd St. station in West Philadelphia, was located at 52nd & Lancaster, not a partically good neighborhood today. My questionto you is, if 52nd Street were still open would you get off the train there.
52nd Street Station was an important stop on the Paoli trains up until the 1970's. Outbound trains in the morning stopped there to pick up the maids headed for work at the large estates located in Merion, Narberth, Ardmore, Bryn Mawr, etc. In the evening the process reversed. These riders, and others heading towards to suburbs to work in homes, estates and in small businesses were the pioneer's of what we call "reverse communting" today.
On the recent ERA streetcar charter into West Philadelphia, we passed the remains of a once busy station and traffic generator for the Pennsy. I remeber that the inbound platform was located on a high tressle, and you had to decent a long flight of stairs to get to the street.
Unfortunately, this is a sad reminder of the glory days of Philadelphia rail transportation.
Jim K.
Chicago
Mr K, as a resident of Chicago, what is your favorite
Metra line.(excluding the South Shore) Mine are tied for
first, the BNSF to Aurora with all the rush hour action,
and the UP(C&NW) west line which is the main line to
Omaha. But my all time favorite which no longer runs is
the none stop service on the northwest line of C&NW which
ran non-stop from Jefferson Park to the now temporarily
closed Arlington Park Racetrack. A ride I called the
Arlington Park Swift.
"But my all time favorite which no longer runs is the non stop service on the northwest line of C&NW which ran non-stop from Jefferson Park to the now temporarily closed Arlington Park Racetrack."
As you're probably aware, Arlington Park is going to reopen next year, since Duchossois got the gambling-related amendments he wanted out of the Assembly. Considering that Metra runs specials to Ravinia Park in the summer concert season, I would be VERY surprised if Metra didn't reinstate racetrack specials when Arlington reopens.
So, have you been on the new (since 1996) North Central Line yet? If so, what did you think of it?
Dear Mr. Sunday 804 –
This is so easy, is it a set-up? Anyway, I would have to say my favorite is the UP-North Line, formally C&NW line to Kenosha (Milwaukee).
Why, the reasons are list below:
Great view of downtown and the Lake Street ‘L’ departing Northwestern Station.
Left hand running through “decent” neighborhoods in the city of Chicago.
Did I mention good views of the Ravenswood ‘L’ and the Evanston ‘L’ lines.
Traverses the villages of the North Shore, north of Chicago, which are not depressing at all.
Parallels the abandoned CNS&M electric right-of-way in Winnetka.
Where else can you pass a bridge that proudly proclaims NORTH SHORE LINE, thirty-six years after the Road of Service quit?
And finally, at the end of 1999 or beginning of 2000, this line will take me to the newest streetcar operation using PCC cars in the states – in Kenosha.
How can you top this? Beats most regional rail rides.
Jim Kramer
Chicago
Mr. K, Often I take things for granted. I guess it takes a transplant to persuade me. The PCC'S in Kenosha alone should top the list. BTW have you already seen the North Shore embankment above Westleigh Rd. in Lake Forest. The first time I saw that I thought I was in a time machine.
And don't forget, it also takes you to the world's finest military training installation-Naval Training Center Grave Mistakes.
Has there been anyone talking about reopening 52nd St? Seems like it could be useful - LOTS of folks get on at Overbrook, heading west to work. It would, no doubt, cut down on the commute for a lot of people. It also would have come in handy during the strike. Seems dumb not to have a stop there. Course, it would need an elevator now, which would be expensive...
"Course, it would need an elevator now..."
If it's a matter of reopening an existing, but closed, station and it's not a "key station" (and how could a previously-closed station be key?), then not so.
Here in Chicago, the CTA reopened a subway station (Grand/Halsted on the Blue Line) that was closed for a few years now, and they didn't make any ADA improvements to the station even though substantial renovation was made necessary by the fact that the line colors (Grand had green signs, including the station name carved into the tile, but stations are supposed to use the color of their line, so Grand had to be changed to blue) and the Transit Card system weren't in place when the station closed.
Well Jim. 52 Street is in a pretty depressing part of town. I may get off there though. I've walked the streets of North Philly at night, this can't be any worse.
Of course, they could spend the $$$ and reactivate the Newtown line.
But trains apparently make people unhappy up that way, so some of
the prettiest scenery (IMHO) lies along abandoned rails.
I remember fondly the Newtown Line. The crew that I rode around with during my high school days picked a job out of Chestnut Hill for one pick in the late 1960's. This job included the "morning" Newtown out of Reading Terminal after the AM rush. The run numbers were #874 NB and #883 SB. During the late 1960's this train ran all the way to Newtown. In the early 1970's it was cut back to Churchville.
It was a one car job that used either Budd RDC #9151 or #9152 for equipment. This was because they were the only two of the fleet of 16 that had "excitation" equipment to activate signals and grade crossing protection. The signaling was a mute point because it was "permissive block" north of Fox Chase. The crew always needed a Clearance card "A" to leave Fox Chase.
The head end ride was great. Scenery was beautiful and the area was still not sub-divided with houses built on 1/2 acre, or less, lots.
Those were the days! There were two jobs working out of Newtown back then. I would have to look up the run numbers, but it as I remember the jobs that worked out of Newtown Terminal were sweet - time and pay wise that is.
The afternoon job started in Newtown at 4:06 PM, report time 3:36 PM. It made a trip into Reading Terminal, a trip back out to Newtown from Reading Terminal at 5:29 PM, and return. The home trip left RT at 9:19 PM, an odd time for a train to leave, and arrived at Newtown at 10:18 PM, off-duty time 10:28 PM. Eight hours pay for less than seven hours work - not bad!
Jim K.
Chicago
Save those memories, Jim. The best you can do today is to observe an overgrown right-of-way from the window seat of a 25-passenger cutaway bus on one of the two replacement rubber-tired routes (301 and 302) which operate the service now that trains are gone. And, because of local politics, the trains will likely never return.
I was walking the line from Newtown south last week, and man, have
16 years done a job on that line. The rails look awful, and it was
so overgrown after about 15 minutes I had to turn around. :(
Did the line ever go further north from Newtown? It looks like the
yard is where it ended, but then the rail from the station seems
to go through a grade crossing.
(It certainly doesn't hurt that my SO lives in Newtown. :)
As far as the LIRR is concerned, much of the main line to Ronkonkoma is fairly depressing. While there's nothing really terrible, the trackside scenery in many places runs toward gritty industrial and commercial stuff - factories, junk yards, sand-and-gravel operations, construction supply yards, etc. Necessary activities, of course, but ones that score low on the scenic scale.
If you're the type who is depressed by cemeteries (not me, I find them rather interesting), the Ronkonkoma line isn't for you. It runs through the enormous Pinelawn cemetery, which even has a small station platform for cemetery visitors. The line also runs through a few somewhat down-at-the-heels communities - Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip. Finally, the area to the north of the Ronkonkoma station is sort of unsightly (there's a huge parking lot to the south). There apparently had been plans for major commercial development of this area. Instead, there's just a woebegone commercial strip with many vacant storefronts (the occupied ones seem to consist of disreputable bars and tattoo parlors), and some weedy empty lots.
Oyster Bay line is a bit depressing, not for it's scenery but for the old diesel trains. Also the stations along this line have very light ridership, so stations seem pretty much deserted.
You must not have rode the Oyster Bay lately. They have quite a bit of new bi-level cars operating on this line, particularly during the non rush hour.
Hmm, I do not see what the closing of the Navy Yard has to do with Chester and that area being a mess... Chester has been down and out for 25+ years!
I would say that the R7 Trenton line is about as bad as it gets. Lots of abandoned factories line the tracks as they wind through North Philly. It particularly bugs me because lots of folks heading through Philly on Amtrak probably think that kind of decay is all there is in Philadelphia!
I'd like to think Philadelphia is on its way back up now.
David, I'll second that all right! When I took the train down to Florida last year to visit my mother we passed through Philly going and coming. If a person didn't know that it really isn't such a bad city and that it does have it's good neighborhoods, you'd think you were passing through a war zone or something. I remember a lot of weed-choked vacant lots, burned out warehouses, and buildings that look like they could fall in any second. As a lifelong New Yorker, I'm not saying that there isn't urban blight and decay here because I know that there is. It just doesn't help Philly's reputation much when people who may only ever pass through it see what they do from the train. It's especially bad in my opinion if you see it on a snowy day in late December.
I'll third that opinion, being a Philly resident myself. But then
again, bad neighborhoods seem to be the norm for the NE corridor
in NY/PA/NJ. North Philly, then Newark, and after leaving NYC it's
not the prettiest either. Not enough sweatshops and mills stayed
open after the industrial revolution, eh? :)
Yes, there are a lot of gritty, industrial neighborhoods. But aside from stuff in the Bronx, I can't think of any area where there are so many collapsing and abandoned buildings in the gritty areas.
Salvatore, why do you find it the worst in the snow? At least the snow covers some of the trash. In general, the NEC is a dumping ground, which is a shame. Makes riding the train that much less glamorous, or whatever...
Lee, I find it more depressing in the snow because it just casts a very bleak picture. I especially remember looking across some cememtery to a stretch of extremely run-down rowhouses. With a lead grey sky, it looked very ominous. Of course, this is just my opinion. I will be the first to admit that the New York Metro area is just chock full of scenery like this, but I grew up around it so I guess it just doesn't bother me.
How do they get people out of stuck trains? What happens if a train gets stuck under the East River, like the 7, N, or E?
If there was a total NYC blackout, I'd hate to think how those subways would be?
Steve can elaaborate but I will start:
Train crews and all transit employees are trained in train evacuation. They would make or have made, the decision to clear the train. The train crew would lead the passengers to the nearest emergency exit or station and ensure their safety.
There are many different ways to get people out of the tunnels on "stuck" trains. You mention a couple of situations, though, which wouldn't require people to get out and walk..
If a train is stuck in a tunnel because of equipment problems, they can pull a train right up to it from either the front or the back, and have people walk into the second train.
If there is a power failure where they can't restore traction power, there is always the diesel routes. They're not likely going to have 1,000 passengers walk up and out of an east river tunnel -- they'll send a couple of diesels down to fetch them out.
On the LIRR side there are always two diesel engines at HAROLD TOWER (a track stub) during rush hour. LIRR would come to a stop even if they lose one track and I think they would rescue the train before transfering pax.
Diesel route? I think not. Not in the subways. There are several courses of action possible.
In the case of a stalled train. The follower may be discharged and used as a rescue train. In that case, it would be pulled up to the disabled train and customers would be walked from one to the other.
Less frequently, the train may be electrically and pneumatically isolated, essentially creating 2 trains linked with just a mechanical coupler. A good section is found and the train is moved into the next station,
Still less frequently, an empty train might be used to 'push' the disabled train into the next station. Incidently, stalled trains are never pulled - always pushed. This requires much supervision and positive communications.
In the case of a power failure, every effort would be made to keep customers on the train and comfortable. This is especially true if the nearest station is more than a few hundred feet away. Tunnel lighting is completely inadequate for a train crew to walk 2-3,000 people to safety by flashlight. Evacuation is a last resort.
When I first was employed by the NYCT, stalled trains were somewhat common, especially when caused by P-wire loss. RCIs had to be able to move any train (within 20 minutes) unless there was no 600 volts, the train was on the ground, or the motorman was dead. Fortunately, the division of Car Equipment ahs made stalled trains far less common. Unfortunately, lack of practice has made RCIs and some TSSs less competant when the need arises.
But if there is a complete power failure, how long can people wait down there? 2 hours. 3 hours. 4? If in an East River tunnel, they would have to walk. There must be some kind of Emergency floodlights?
I don't think they can use diesels in a tunnel because people would suffocate from the fumes.
I guess they would have to do the same if an LIRR train got stuck from a blackout in the tunnel.
Are there walkways in the tunnels or do people have to walk along the tracks?
With the recent blackouts in major parts of the city, if it gets hot again, and a subway transformer blows, any trains in the tunnel would get stuck. Can't they just "coast" the trains into the next station, or they can't because of trips in the up position?
I wonder where the substations are for each line, presumably the power is from ConEd. I have no idea where LIRR gets it's power from, but if it's ConEd in the City zone then a blackout would effect them too.
Each situation is different and must be evaluated on its' own (merits). The option to evacuate will never be a first choice and is a decision that is never taken lightly. If emergency personnel can be brought to the scene quickly enough to help maintain conditions and calm, there should be no need for anything other than a selective evacuatiion. Selective evacuations meaning removing only those in medical distress.
But if stuck in an East River tunnel in a blackout, how fast can power be restored. When a transformer blows, can they get power from another one?
When the blackouts in NYC happened in 1977 and the one before that, what did they do? They can't leave people in a train for 10 hours, they'd run out of air!
If the blackout was in Astoria instead of Washington heights, if the N train power suppy was knocked out, the trains would've been stuck for most of the day. I can't imagine an N stuck in an East River tunnel and not evacuating people if power was not restored in 5 hours!
As I said, each situation is different. When 3904-3559 had their unfortunate incident, the few passengers on that train were evacuated through the Sutton Place emergency exit. That's 93 feet up 13 flights of stairs. Fortunately, it was less than 50 people. 500 or 1,00 would have been a completely different story.
If the elevators are out, the booth will hit the alarm and police will respond along with supervision. A supervisor will check the emergency stairway next to the elevators( Yes- all deep stations have an emergency stairway- real stairs with lights and railings) near the elevators and then help customers exit the station. New customers would be barred from entering the station. if the station has escalators they would be reversed or shut down if necessary to avoid congestion. Also- most stations have extra exit gates that are usually opened during construction re-routes and disruptions.
In any emergency requiring station evacuation, such as smoke, fire, flooding, power failure, etc. the alarm will be activated. of course, if there is extra personnel at the station such as the relief being early, the extra personnel can start clearing the station while the agent in the booth notifies supervision and handles communications with Station Command and/or the Field Office and/or the station supervisor or field manager. I did just that procedure last year when the water main break downtown stopped IRT service to Brooklyn. There was no flooding at my station- just not trains. I took charge outside of the booth and the agent in the booth complied with my requests. (Yes- my hours were changed and the superindent and supervisor both thanked me.)
A G O can also require clearing a station and here again, a relief or cleaner will help the agent in the booth and all will work together. Yesterday I worked with the booth to clear Astor Place downtown due to the weekend G.O. where the 4/6 runs express from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge. I gave my requests to the booth and they complied with my requests.
If you get one of the smart alecs you wait till they are relieved and then you carry on without them. (even relieve them early-- most will want to go home early!) Often times, using their sixth sense a police officer will be nearby and they'll help (and then they'll tell the booth to clear the station like the other agent requested.) Forutnately I have had no smart alecs in emergency situations. The station agent is "Stuck" in the booth and they welcome the extra help.
Emergency flood lights!!! wow thats a good one! if a power failure occurs and a train can coast to a stop adjacent to a station FABULOUS..
in an under river tube well babe those are the brakes(pun) the T/O applies the brakes and handbrakes also . as for evacuation thats on a case by case basis. If ther are no immediate hazards such as fire smoke or flood why not just sit there and wait till the Fire Dept shows up?
In a power failure where signals are affected usually the stop arms go to the tripping position, in some instances the signals go dark and the stop arms stay in the position they were in before electricity died out.
with third rail power out the train is to coast as close as possible if not into or near a station even nearest to an emergency exit is best well next climbing as many as 300-1000 feet up some narrow and dingy steps...
"with third rail power out the train is to coast as close as possible if not into or near a station even nearest to an emergency exit is best well next climbing as many as 300-1000 feet up some narrow and dingy steps"
300 to 1000 feet may be a 'slight' exaggeration. We're running a subway system and not a diamond mine. the deepest emergency exit is roughly 180 feet.
I concur with you Steve. I measured the Roosevelt Island station, which is supposed to be the deepest station below the surface, at 100 feet below surface (lower platform). I'm sure there are some tunnels which run deeper, but at 10' per building storey, 1000' would be the height (depth?) of the Empire State Building!
And most of these climbs aren't nearly that deep. As part of various Transit Museum tours I have climbed down and up various emergency staircases (in inactive tunnels) and found them to be an adequate means to get in and out. Ideal? Hardly, but they're for emergencyuse, after all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, the 86th floor observatory is 1,050 feet up, so if you can imagine looking down from there, that would be a good idea.
I liken it to the suspension bridge over the Arkansas River at Royal Gorge out here. It's also 1,050 feet above the river, and there is a railroad alongside. Get this: there are "No fishing from bridge" signs posted. Yeah, right.
Oh boy are they less competent. I had to flag a train from Spring st. to Jamaica Yard. The TSS had no idea what he was doing, or the train operator. I tried to offer assistance, explaining my background. On the rail road, we did that stuff all the time. But NOOO, I'm just a lowly conductor. What could I possibly know? So I let those two idiots handle it. Until they almost ran a switch and collided with an F at 5th Av. It was too late for the home signal though. That was already 30 feet gone when the train finnally stopped.
I got in to a heated shouting match with the TSS over that. I told him under No circumstances was this train moving till we got these problems settled. First was the way the train was set up.
The brake pipe angle was pulled at the 4th car. We had no way to stop from the first car. A violation of operating rules. No buzzer or PA because they had retrieved the electric portion on the couplers.
The control center only cared about moving the train. So I was on my own with these two geniuses. We eventually got to Jamaica, but it took hours. I was making sure that it was done right.
Whenever I see that TSS he won't look at me. Really, what would it take if management just trained people the right way? Does there have to be a train wreck and a loss of life?
Yes. Those two things plus one huge lawsuit.
[Oh boy are they less competent. I had to flag a train from Spring st. to Jamaica Yard. The TSS had no idea what he was doing, or the train operator ... I told him under No circumstances was this train moving till we got these problems settled. First was the way the train was set up. The brake pipe angle was pulled at the 4th car. We had no way to stop from the first car.]
That sounds like what happened in the fatal G train crash at Roosevelt Avenue in 1970.
Sadly, the G train at Roosevelt Ave. is 29 years removed from today. We should have learned and we have. Unfortunately, there are those who can't think under pressure. In the incident cited by Erik, there is virtually never an occaxxion where the electric portions on an R-46 must be retreived. We can isolate the train while still preserving communications. Unfortunately, under pressure, some people forget what they are taught and resort to 'bottom line" solutions.
As for the Roosevelt Ave. incident, I knew the RCI who was blamed for that fiasco. In fact, he came to work for me from 1985 until he retired. Because he flagged the train and was unqualified to do so, he was charged with manslaughter. He was out of work for over one year before the case was resolved and he was allowed to return. However, he was never permitted to work the road, ever again.
If I'm correct, an operating rule was changed because of that. Only RTO personnel may flag trains today.
There are some DCE supervisors who are signal-qualified. I'm not sure how many there are though...
Why are stalled trains always pushed and never pulled?
Two reasons.
The first is debatable. It is felt that there is greater safety and control when pushing. The point of operation is always betweenthe good train and the bad one. There is also no chance for the disabled unit to break away undetected. In addition, when you get into the yard, the bad order train is always to the block.
The second is that when a train is disabled, it is usually a train behind the stuck train that is removed from service to effect a rescue if necessary and then be used as horses. The train in front of the stuck train is usually long gone.
Incidently, whenever any train is pushed, both trains must have a draw-bar/shear-pin/coupler exam before they are returned to service.
WALK MY CHILD WALK!!!
Delancy Street was the Subway Stop of James Cagney and Irving Berlin.
Humphry Bogart caught the 7th Avenue Local at 103rd and Broadway and Harry Houdini likely got on and off the 8th Avenue line at 125th Street.
Any others???
< Harry Houdini likely got on and off the 8th Avenue line at 125th Street. >
I've gotta know! Surely Houdini didn't use the turnstiles, did he? ;-)
Houdini never learned to drive a car (this in spite of the fact that he was one of the worlds first aviators) I know he used the subway, but Now that I think of it he died in 1926 and not sure if the 8th Avenue Line had been built. He lived on 122nd Street.
I'm not sure Houdini believed in the hereafter, but he at least allowed for it, in that I believe he told his survivors that he would show up at a seance on his birthday, if it were possible. Seances have been held, but he's never shown up.
Perhaps we might imagine that his shade has taken the "A" train.
While on the subject of the "A" line and famous people, does anyone know if the man who immortalized the line in song, Duke Ellington, ever rode on the "A" line?
BTW, going back a few years, I think I recall an interview with Barbara Streisand where she fondly remembered her rides on the Brighton Beach local when she went to Erasmus Hall High School and the trolley cars of Flatbush Ave. This may have been either the Oprah Show or someother network program back in the early 90's.
Doug aka BMTman
Sea Beach Fred might be a minor leaguer when it comes to knowing all about his famous train, but when it comes to the Brooklyn Dodgers I take a back seat to no one. Gil Hodges belongs in the Hall of Fame and the Brooklyn Dodger Fan Club, of which I'm a member, has been laboring arduously for his getting inducted. Flood the papers and telephone lines of writers about this. Gil not be in the Hall is a crime. He was a gentleman, a role model, one of the great and consistent RBI men of his era, and the best defensive first baseman in baseball. He hit 20 or more homers 11 years in a row and won a World Series as manager of our Mets. We want him in.
Fred, thanks for the info! I had no idea that Gil was NOT in the Hall of Fame.
What gives with that?
Doug aka BMTman
The only way Gil would get into the Hall of Fame now would be for the Veterans Committee to vote him in. As to why he hasn't been enshrined is one of the better unanswered questions.
Don't forget: Pee Wee Reese didn't get in until 1984, when the Veterans Committee voted him in. It took Phil Rizzuto even longer. I know, he's a Yankee, but I'm using him as an example.
I have a copy of The Year the Mets Lost Last Place, which chronicles nine crucial days in July of 1969, when the Mets played three games with the Cubs at Shea, followed by three games with the Expos (a fourth game was rained out), and three more games with the Cubs in Chicago. There is mention of Wayne Garrett riding back to Manhattan on an E train after the first game with the Expos. A fan asked a lady sitting directly across from Garrett for a pen so he could get an autograph from Ron Taylor, who was in the next car. This fan didn't even recognize Garrett. There was no mention of where Garrett or Taylor got off the train.
I remember Tom Seaver's near-perfect game of July 9. We returned from Florida that very afternoon and I watched that game on TV. The biggest regular season crowd in Shea Stadium history was on hand for that game - 59,083 people jammed to the rafters. It's too bad standing-room-only is now a thing of the past.
Harry Houdini likely got on and off the 8th Avenue line at 125th Street.
Not likely. Houdini died in 1926; the 8th Ave. subway opened in 1932. If he rode it it would have been some trick on his part!
-Dave
Yes, I forgot that part. But he did use the subway. Perhapse the IRT
7th Avenue express??? or one of the El lines. As I said above, he lived on West 122nd street.
Also, John D. Rockefeller Sr. was known to ride the streetcar and other public transport to his Standard Oil offices at 26 Broadway. this would have been in the Oughts or Teens.
The Marx Brothers as children got on the 3rd Ave el (and cheated the ticket taker..) at 98th St(Harpo as a child was apparently very adept at this...). (they lived at 179 E 96th St between approx 1895-1908 or so...) Currently John Olerud of the Mets frequently rides the subway out to Shea. My fave pic of all time is The Donald and Ivana Trump riding the F after 4th of July fireworks,,looking incredibly uncomfortable....In the old,old days it was very common for ballclubs staying at the Ansonia Hotel to take the el up to the old Polo Grounds.....trying to think of some others...Oh yeah...Rod Kanahel of the Original 1962 Mets had the nickname The Mole for his hobby of riding the subway...not to mention Phil Rizzutos dad having been a trolley motorman for the BMT....
As far as I know Larry "Bud" Melman still rides the N train from Bay Ridge to get into the city.
He was the 'foil' for David Letterman in his shows' early years. And Larry also made a number of commercials for 1-800-CALL-COLLECT.
I believe the Letterman show did a skit (on location) of Larry on a part of his N train route and how people did/did not notice him on a crowded train.
Doug aka BMTman
Is Kanahel still around (and if so, is the nickname still valid and does he read this board)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rod Kanehl was known as Hot Rod; however, he was long gone by the time I started following the Mets.
Speaking of baseball, did you know that the song Take Me Out to the Ballgame was inspired by a subway ride? The story goes that Jack Norworth, who penned the tune, got the idea for it in 1908 when he saw a poster promoting Giants games at the Polo Grounds while on the subway. Maybe it was the 9th Ave. el. Ironically, Norworth himself didn't care for baseball.
I hope this isn't too off-topic for this BBS, but what's your favorite rail song ever written? (There have been a few songs mentioning transit--"The Trolley Song," for example, or Charlie on the MTA.)
Any criteria good enough for you are good enough for me.
My vote goes to a song which perfectly evokes the feel of long-distance passenger railroading in the darkest days before Amtrak--"The City of New Orleans."
How about "I've Been Working on the Railroad"?
That's corny and silly. It's only for Gangdy Dancers>
How corny can it be if it has its own website!
http://www.kididdles.com/i013.html
try this one
http://www.kididdles.com/mouseum/i013.html
Wait a minute! I looked through all the Best Rail Song postings and no one's mentioned the obvious - an anthem for New York City and the Independent Subway: Take The "A" Train - Duke Ellington. A great tune!
That's corny and silly. It's only for Gandy Dancers>
"It Takes a Lot to Laugh, It Takes A Train To Cry"
"Freight Train Blues"
And my favorite by far "Bob Dylan's Dream"
All by Bob Dylan.
Tom Waits had a song called "Downtown Train" that was covered by everyone and their brother. That was a good one.
Come to think of it Tom Waits wrote quite a lot of songs about trains.
"A Train Will Bring Me Home" And others.
And let's not forget the "Orange Blossom Special" sung by Johnny Cash
And that reminds me of "People Get Ready [There's a Train a'Comin')" (not sure that's the correct title) which I believe may be a traditional song. I've heard a couple of versions, and there was a video with, IIRC, Rod Stewart and Jeff Beck.
The song is a religious allegory, but the train imagery is beautiful.
Of course, there's James Brown's "Night Train"
And if we're going to get into gospel songs, how about "Death's Little Black Train is Comning" (many versions). Fits in with the discussion of "Cemetary Specials" of a while ago.
There's a heap of good blues tunes with railroad themes. I just can't think of any titles at the moment. If you go & look up the black press from the twenties & thirties, they used to publish ads for each 78 as they came out, with pictures illustrating the theme of the song. This is a source of some wonderful railroad illustrations!
The Wreck of Old 97 has been done in countless variations by countless performers. It's a true classic. King of the Road, by the late Roger Miller, is another great one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
< And if we're going to get into gospel songs, how about "Death's Little Black Train is Comning" (many versions). Fits in with the discussion of "Cemetary Specials" of a while ago. >
Which reminds of a Chuck Berry's 1955 recording of "Down Bound Train," a drunkard's fantasy of a train rushing downward into Hell. If you have Real Player 5, you can hear it at digital chain saw's Chuck Berry Page.
A few of my favorites:
Take the A Train -- Duke Ellington
Midnight Train to Georgia -- Gladys Knight and the Pips
Friendship Train -- (same as above)
The Train is Coming -- Shaggy ("Money Train" opening song).
How about "Midnight Special"?
Lotsa good tunes in this thread. I guess good songwriters must recognize trains as an inspiration. Hey, if Bob Dylan and Duke Ellington both approve, trains can't be all bad.
One addition: The Grateful Dead's song ... um, actually I'm not sure of the exact official title, but ... "Casey Jones."
Its winking lyrics include cautionary references to cocaine and other hard drugs ("you better watch your 'speed' ").
But more than most "train songs" I know of, its lyrics also stick pretty much to the subject of a train and its operation. Superficially, anyway. It's a black-humorous lark about an impending wreck, complete with timetables:
"... leaves Central Station 'bout a quarter to nine, hit Trouble Junction at seventeen-to, at a quarter to ten you know we're riding again...."
Usually a train is limited to serving as a song's plot device or a symbol of something, -- death, life changes, sexual energy, or anything else powerful, dynamic and unsettling -- and it's only mentioned a few times in the chorus and maybe another odd line or two.
"City of New Orleans," previously mentioned in this thread, is another, far more serious, exception to this rule. It's about a lot of fairly profound things, but all of them are connected in one way or another to the very real train, crews, trackside seediness and "disappearing railroad" its lyrics ride on.
That song talks a lot about what one sees FROM a train, and there are some less serious train songs that also offer that kind of travelogue. For example, when Graham Nash of Crosby, Stills and Nash takes us on a trip on the "Marrakesh Express."
As for old blues lyrics involving trains, lots of those focus pretty heavily on the train itself, but most of them also seem to be about a lover leaving or somebody dying.
I've always liked the Rolling Stones' take on that, "Love In Vain." ("I followed her to the station with a suitcase in my hand....When the train left the station, it had two lights on behind.") Did they write that or is it older?
Come to think of it, some of my favorite "train lyrics" are the exact opposite---that one little image of a train that sets a tone or ties up a loose end in a song that's not about trains at all.
Two examples (lyrics my best recollection):
Grateful Dead again, "Mama Tried": "First thing I remember knowing, was a lonesome whistle blowing ..."
Johnny Cash, "Folsom Prison": "I hear that train a-coming, a-rolling down the track ..."
Another one where the train is incidental - but maybe not, in a way - is David Allan Coe's You Never Even Called Me By My Name in which he says that after writing the first two verses he sent it to a friend and said he had written the perfect country and western song. His friend wrote back and said he hadn't, because he hadn't said anything about a number of subjects, including trucks, prison, Mama, trains, and getting drunk. So he wrote another verse, which goes like this: "I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison, and I went to pick her up in the rain, but before I could get to the station in the pickup truck, she got runned over by a damned old train."
Anyway, it's a great song.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Come to think of it, some of my favorite 'train lyrics' are the exact opposite---that one little image of a train that sets a tone or ties up a loose end in a song that's not about trains at all."
My favorite along those lines is "House of the Rising Sun," with the line "One foot on the platform, the other foot on the train..." It's literal, since the character in the song is boarding a train, but it's also figurative, as if the character is torn between going to New Orleans to gambling (and, he knows already, his ruin) and staying in his hometown and getting an honest job, etc.
[ House of the Rising Song ]
The original song is traditional, and is about prostitution. Bob Dylan sang it that way, IIRC--that is, using the female gender ... "it's been the ruin of many a poor girl..."
So the train metaphor is perhaps even more powerful, between home, stability (the platform) and the foreign, impermanent, fast moving (the train).
the end of the song as I remember it is:
With one foot on the platform
And one foot on the train
I'm going back to New Orleans
To wear that ball-and-chain.
Yes, House of the Rising Sun is a great one.
And I never really noticed its train angle before, even when the song was running through my head during a recent visit to New Orleans -- mainly because I never quite heard the "one foot on the platform" line properly.
A few tidbits from today's midday break:
I stopped by the World Trade Center terminal. As Steve mentioned a few weeks ago, a car cleaning program has been implemented there. An army of car cleaners enters E each train when it arrives, and picks up litter and mops. Nice job! (I'll be on the 5:08am departure tomorrow morning and will check on the overnight crew -- and how they deal with the 'traveling homeless hotel.')
Then I went up to Grand Central Terminal to visit the newly opened Transit Museum Store; rode an R-26 5 with minimal air conditioning in the first car. But the ride was worth it of course! The store had a poor selection of MetroCard holders; just two designs, neither of which had a transit theme (they were NYC-historical).
From there I rode a <6>"express." I still see that as an oxymoron - the express which normally runs local in Manhattan.
All in all, I had six swipes on my FunPass in four hours :-)
Yeah, I freaked too the first time I saw a "6 express" What the hell is an express local anyway?
It runs on the 3rd track farther than the local does (the local 6 goes to Parkchester-E177 Street). Thus it gets the name thru-express. Why can't the MTA take the express of the thru express 6 trains in the R110A?
6 express meaning express to the Bronx pm hours from the Bronx in the AM and as always a LEXINGTON AVENUE LOCAL
gheesh!
I am told the WTC cleaners are not there 24/7. The AM crew works 9 AM to 5 PM with Sat/Sun off. The PM crew works 5PM to 1AM with Fri/Sat off. Parsons/Archer is staffed 24/7. The homeless is not a problem on the E right now due to the summer. But wait till winter......
Indeed, Bill, there were no cleaners this morning when I took the 5:06 (which departed at 5:03:30!). The homeless population was down too. And thanks to a GO, we were express from Canal through 42nd Street, and took that infrequently-used turnout from the uptown express track to the 50th Street Queens-bound station.
The old mechanical interlocking machines in the towers could be operated by monkeys on stools. They could pull and push the levers on the GRS machines and turn the levers on the US & S machines. They like peanuts and don't have to a member of the TWU.
Lets hire some.
Maybe Monkeys can operate trains!!!
< Maybe Monkeys can operate trains!!! >
I can see where this is heading. I have heard NYC referred to as a Socialist Republic. Are you suggesting its really a Banana Republic?
David, I'm sorry but is there a point to this line of discussion?
I think I have a pretty decent sense of humor but I seem to have missed the point of the thread about rats operating trains and this current one. Frankly, though, while I don't think you meant to be, I find the thread(s) offensive. While it may seem like an easy job, I think that the people who operate the NYCT trains are for the most part, highly competant (although possibly a bit disgruntled).
I've ridden many a cab late at night and seen work-gang after work-gang pop out of nowhere. The late-night can be absolutely scarey. Then watch a condictor try to close his(her)doors at 8 AM at Continental Av. Not as easy as it looks.
I used to tell an engineer friend of mine (when he would say that he wanted to pack it in)
I see a lotta train buffs and stuff around and plenty of wannabe's out here has anyone taken the civil service test and passed it?
rats, monkeys and other stuff sounds funny (ha ha) driving trains however WHAT DO you do for a living?/ oh excuse me Donald TRUMP
(NOT!) anyhow operating trains is no joking matter concentration on what you are doing or lack of can make a hell of a difference whether the people riding your train get from point a to b SAFE.
IF anyone thinks they can do the job better then fill oout an application take and pass the next exam and medical and welcome to The ballgame my friend.
I wasn't referring to NYCT and I have operated subway trains.
Mr. Pardi, The signaling system prevents motorman and train operators from getting into accidents and I design those system and place them into service including the Archer Avenue Extension, Livonia Yard and many other contracts on NYCTA.
If you have any questions about signaling please ask me.
Many thanks to you for providing our eyes to the traffic which lay ahead of us...
Thank you Steve. It's nice to know that someone at the top appreciates us.
I think I have a pretty decent sense of humor but I seem to have missed the point of the thread about rats operating trains and this current one. Frankly, though, while I don't think you meant to be, I find the thread(s) offensive. While it may seem like an easy job, I think that the people who operate the NYCT trains are for the most part, highly competant (although possibly a bit disgruntled).
I've ridden many a cab late at night and seen work-gang after work-gang pop out of nowhere. The late-night can be absolutely scarey. Then watch a condictor try to close his(her)doors at 8 AM at Continental Av. Not as easy as it looks.
I used to tell an engineer friend of mine (when he would say that he wanted to pack it in) that he had the fantasy job of 3/4 of all kids (boys?). I suppose most here would love to operate a subway train if given the opportunity so why dis those who do?
Steve, my remarks were not meant to be offensive. In fact, I wasn't even referring to NYCT. The train operators on MARTA leave alot to be desired with setting off deadman feature in the platform for the final stop and operating master controller from brake to coast and to power for jerking operation.
NYCT motorman or train operators are the most skilled in the industry simply because they have to be. They must observe all signals, especially grade time signals, and must operate trains with a master controller and brake valve as opposed to a one handle controller or automatic operation (ATO). PATH is another system with skillful engineers.
herky jerky operation by going from coast to off and to power position without a momentary pause before taking power to me would be the culprit. In a start from level track with say 10 lbs psi brake applied after the train has come to a stop there should be a rather smooth start. However from a full service application after releasing brakes and taking power immediately will make for an uncomfortable start.
Spoken like a true signal engineer! See folks, I told you the designers of the signal system thought we were monkees!
Try telling that to Davy, Mike, Peter, and Micky.
HEY SEAN, SPEAK UP AND DEFEND YOUR SUBWAY CREDENTIALS. YOU CERTAINLY SHOULD NOT BE THE OFFICIAL SUBWAY HISTORIAN, HOWEVER, WE WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR VIEWS. I THINK ITS PRETTY CLEAR THAT NO ONE PERSON SHOULD HAVE THAT TITLE WHEN SO MANY ARE QUALIFIED IN DIFFERENT WAYS.
Most railfans probably don't know that there were two different configurations of third rails on the IRT. The Manhattan type was used on the Manhattan El with drop shoes on the cars and subway type you all know about. The Manhattan type had no board cover over on top however, had one on the side. Somes el such as the Jerome Avenue Line had both configurations to handle the cars from the old 9th Avenue El.
I had asked about dual third rail configurations earlier this year.
I recall seeing both types while the Polo Grounds Shuttle / Ex 9th Ave El connector was still in operation.
There were also two different configurations of third rail on the BMT. Elevated third rail was more similar to running rail, was placed higher and closer to the running rails and was always uncovered.
Subway third rail had a thicker section, more like a heavy "I" beam. I've seen this type of third rail advertised in industry publications as "BMT Section Third Rail."
BMT subway cars had compromise shoes that could operate on either. I remember the Brighton Line was changed over to BMT section until the late 50's or early 60's.
The H & M Cars were tested on the 2nd Avenue El before the H & M Railroad opened on February 25, 1908.
In light of your statement concerning the different types of third rail, the Second Ave. El must have been equipped with "Manhattan" (elevated) third rail, and so the H & M cars being tested must have been equipped with shoes designed for this type of third rail, which presumably were different from the shoes they used in actual service on the H & M. Right?
Is the third rail used on PATH today the same as on the NYCT subways?
How about the tripcocks on PATH cars, are they compatible with the IRT? Would it be physically possible for unmodified PATH trains to run today on the IRT?
Yes because the signaling is almost identical and the third rail looks identical and they are the same width
For IRT service,the trip cocks would have to be moved to the cab side.As the train stops and tripcocks are off the shelf items,I don't think there's any difference in height or clearance.
Contact shoes might be another matter. PATH uses three types of 3rd rail: Umbrella rail (inverted U shape)in most of the tunnels;a T shaped rail at Hoboken,and NYCT/LIRR square type at WTC and outdoors. The shoes are spring mounted to deal with the minor differences between types. They might be adaptable,as the distance from the running rail to the 3rd rail appears to be the same.
I would like to know this?How much longer will the 63rd St. Connection last and what will happen to train service.How many tracks will this use?What will happend to the 2nd Ave. line?
The 2nd Avenue Line was under construction and the city ran out of money and it was stopped.
I think the 63 Street connection would last forever... or until there are no more subways left.
Read the FAQ.
-Hank
Today me and my friend Mark were able to meet up with a good friend of mine from SEPTA at 69th Street Shops.SEPTA has just taken delievery of new work cars for the Market-Frankford EL. It consist of a crane car a tank car for spraying the ROW and a vacuum car. At the end of the crane car and the end of the vacuum car there is a cab at one end. The train is powered from the crane car and is diesel powered. The cab is very nice with heating and AC and has an M4 style Cineston Controller. The thing I cant believe is that each car weighs in about 113,000 pounds. That sounds a little to heavy for the elevated portions especially the Frankford end. They are complaining about how heavy the M4 carsare and that they are discovering cracks in the El becauseof that. I dont know if it is in the concrete or steel work. I heard but dont know if it is true tat they want to shut the line down from Erie up to Bridge to totally rebuild it? It dosent make sense but maybe I should consider the source. If anyone is intersted in seeing pictures of the work cars drop a line or maybe we can put it on the MFSE web page. It will be ashame to see the old work cars go though. They are beauts.
Where have you heard that cracks are forming on the el? I haven't heard anything about it. There are plans being developed as you read this to rebuild the Frankford Terminal, which will relocate the last 500 feet +/- of the structure off Frankford Avenue onto private R/W and across the front apron of the terminal, which will be greatly reconfigured. Also, the Church station will be completely rebuilt. It seems inconsistent that this work would be planned if the el had structural problems. It also seems strange that operation would continue with cracking beams. I would double-check your source.
Two 20th century personages important to the transit system were known as "Red Mike"--one ostensibly for having red hair, the other for Communist leanings. Can you name both?
Hint: only one's given name was Michael. I get the impression that the term "Red Mike" is older than either man. If anyone know its original derivation, if any, it would be a bonus.
They would be John Francis "Red Mike" Hylan, Mayor of NYC {elected 1918?} and ex-BRT motorman. Also self-proclaimed hater of the "wicked traction interests". And of course the beloved Mike Quill! "The judge can drop dead in his black robes, and we would not call off the strike."
One 'Red Mike' was Michael Quill. He lead the TWU during the 1966 transit strike. At one point during the strike for reasons that I've forgotten he stated that "the judges should drop dead in their black robes". But the joke was on Quill, for a few weeks later 'Red Mike' was Dead Mike.
I have noticed that the cars on the Grand Central Shuttle have been changed to the R62A's used on the 3 Train. They have the Blue bands underneath the number boards. Today I say on the 3 train a consist of R62A's that were from the shuttle with the yellow bands from the pelham line. What is the deal?
Peace
DaShawn
Ok... Well here we go! Thomas Maley, a fellow SubTalker has reported spotting an R36 odd couple on the Flushing Line recently. He reports that R36 9348 is now married to R36 9411. What happened to 9349 and 9410?
Anyone care to take a guess what's wrong with this picture?
-Stef
#9410 and #9411 were seen at Coney Island Shops on the May tour. I'm not sure why they were there but they weren't mated at the time.
#9410 looks like he's up on the blocks. Perhaps the kindly doctors have discovered something wrong with his trucks or motors.
Wayne
Is that the Money Train car behind it?
-Hank
According to the captioned image, yes!
9410 is a old 6 red bird
why is it on the 7 train
If you mean the R36ML, those are #9524-9559. The current assignment of R36WF to the #6 line starts with #9480.
Wayne
Thank you for responding (to all).
Dave and Wayne, please make note of the following: I was informed by a friend that two separate incidents occurred recently involving Flushing Line R36s.
9349 is out of service at Coney Island due to underbody fire damage.
9410 is out of service due to anticlimber damage.
The result? The odd lashup of 9348 and 9411.
This is in effect until further notice.
Details of the actual incidents (when or where) are not available, but if someone knows, please fill us in!
-Stef
I saw R36s #9349 with Loco#69 at Coney Island on Friday.
That answers that question!
-Stef
I am researching a novel that involves a subway accident. The victim is pushed in front of the subway and is caught between the train and the landing. The train pins him, crushing his bottom half but leaves him ok from waist up. The theory is that once the train is removed, his bowels will be sucked out and he will die instantly.
Are the subways designed to facilitate this scenario? What are the tolerances and mesurments between trains and ramps.
has this sort of accident ever happened? What are the procedures in case they do.
Is there any information in book form or on the web that I may be referred to that may assist me in my research.
The scene takes place on the New York Subway, but I welcome comments from all over the world.
I am writing from Jamaica - we do not have a subway
I thought the E, F & J/Z go to Jamaica! Oh, that Jamaica!!!
What's the "landing" that you are talking about? the platform?
Yes the platform, the place where people wait for the train. Frogive me.
I would think it would be very difficult for such a scenario to occur. The only place where there would be enough room to initially trap a person between the car and platform would be in a curved station - outside platform if the train is curving to the right, island platform if the train is curving to the left (or South Ferry inner loop). And the physical dynamics are such in any of those locations that the body would be completely severed almost immediately and there wouldn't be any concern about moving the train away from the body causing death.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was a discussion about that sort of incident some months ago. You might be able to find it through the Subtalk "archives."
IIRC, it was pointed out that accidents of this type can happen, although fortunately they're rare.
I think we have beaten this thread to death (pardon the pun). What you describe is referred to as a "Space Case" on the NYCT. They were likely more frequent when the platforms had wooden Rub Boards. The Fiberglass boards not being as forgiving make space cases far less comon. In the two instances that I have seen first hand, the person was extracted using air bags to push the car body away from the platform edge. In both those cases, the person was alive until the air bags were inflated and the pressure removed from their bodies.
An episode of the American television show "Homicide: Life on the Street" had this exact same plot and the victim was removed (not rescued, really) in the manner Steve described with the air bags.
Maybe you should change your plot around so as not to sound like you are plagiarizing? (not saying you are, you've probably never seen "Homicide", but it might sound that way later on...)
-Dave
Yes, an actual incident like the one you describe happenned some years ago at the Dekalb Ave. station in Brooklyn, New York (it may have been the inspiration for that intense episode of the TV drama "Homicide").
For your research, you may want to contact NYPD's ESU (Emergency Services Unit) that most likely would have been on the scene for that incident, as well as local responding 'beat cops' from the 84th precinct, which covers the area of the Dekalb station. There should be a general NYPD website for you to begin some research.
Hope that helps.
Doug aka BMTman
What year did the fare control area at the south end of Mosholou Pkway close? After laying up a train at Mosholou Yard I was walking to the train station and passed by the shuttered street stairway on my way back to Woodlawn.
another question
was there ever another fare control area at Dyckman Street number 1 line?
The Mosholu Pkwy (this is the correct spelling of the station, but grammar does not count) south end fare control was closed some time when i was in high school from 1971 to 1975 as far i can remember. I may be wrong.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I've taken the 1 from Dyckman a few times but haven't seen any evidence of a second fare control area. Have you noticed something there?
How far does a train have to be to activate the gates at a train crossing?
The trains appear to be several hundred feet away
That depends entirely on the crossing. Crossings where trains pound through at 85 miles an hour (such as the LIRR main line) must be tripped further back than a crossing in downtown Riverhead.
At the station stop in Riverhead, BTW, the conductor can key the gates manually so that a train making an extended station stop doesn't time up the road.
All crossing gates have that feature, where train crews can manually interrupt the gates. It's required by rule, lest the traffic build up for miles while a train is sitting for whatever reason.
The gates function not as distance per-se but as time to. The FRA requires that crossing gates begin flashing X seconds before the train arrives, and the gates must be down X seconds before. Older systems used track circuits based on speed in the zone and lengthened them accordingly. Modern systems use complex circuitry which senses a train's speed and is more accurate and reliable.
I live out in the country so very few of the RR crossings around here have crossing gates, but most crossings have Highway Flashers to warn motorists of approaching trains. The flashers seem to give motorists more than ample time to stop for an approaching train. Many motorists stop, gauge the speed of the approaching train, and then scoot across in front of it. This is dangerous at best. People don't seem to realize that a train can't stop in the short distance that a car can. I believe that a RR engineer is required to sound the locomotive's horn or whistle for a highway crossing. The standard warning is two longs, a short, and a long. The last long blast is to be sounded until the first locomotive is completely occupying the highway crossing.
Karl B
The information is covered in the "Code of Federal Regulations" but I seem to remember a rule of thumb like "the distance must be sufficient to provide 20 seconds of protection with the gates down at MAS." Perhaps someone has their copy of the CFR handy.
That sounds right. I don't have a copy of the code, but got quite familiar with it a few years back after my father had a close call with the Carolinian in the Kannapolis/Salisbury (NC) area. In that particular incident, the lights started flashing and the gates began coming down less than two seconds before the train, travelling close to the track speed of 79 mph, hit the crossing. Dad was able to stop in time but the front of his car still shows the marks from the gate closing on top of it. The circuit is supposed to be able to read the speed of the train and bring the gates down at the appropriate time. Seems Norfolk Southern had been plagued with many complaints about early gate closures there and rather than fixing the real problem (the circuit was reading all trains as 79 mph, including the frieghts coming upgrade out of the nearby yard at 10 mph) they bypassed the speed check and wired the lights/gates to a fixed trip based on a train speed of 15 mph. (This entire scenario only applied to southbound trains, by the way - northbound everything worked properly.) It took about eight months after my father's near-miss for the problem to be resolved, complicated in part by the dispute between NS and the state of North Carolina over the trackage lease and in part by the devil-may-care attitude of the NC Department of Transportation. NS wanted the state to pay for the repairs and vice-versa; ultimately, the local police closed the road (after about six months and several more near-misses) and when the truck lobby started screaming to their friends in the legislature NCDOT fixed it to shut them up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This afternoon there was a 12-9 I think is was aboard a northbound 5 in the loop from 138th st gc to Mott ave lower level. All I know is it messed up service on lexington Av and northbound #2. Any gossip?
Well at White Plains Terminal I was told A person tryed to Board the train Between the cars as the Northbound was leaveing and fell under.
That is why I consider myself a frustrated/disgusted/burned out motorman. Because of one passengers' stupidity, some crew has to give urine, see the TA "doctor", go to Control Center to give a story, get interviewed by NYPD, get their working hours changed and be restricted (more like penalized) to a broiling platform job till all the paperwork is squared away.
Spelling correction tried and leaving
Friday afternoon? I observed something peculiar on Friday night as a rerouted #4 made it's way onto the 2/5 line carrying passengers to E180 St before heading back lite. The rerouted #4 headed back south carrying no passengers.
The rerouted #4 was followed by a #5 (northbound) that wasn't in service. I wonder what could have happened?
-Stef
E & F trains will be greatly affected by this from 12:01 AM Sun to 5:00 AM Monday over the next 3 Sundays into early Mondays: July 11/12, 18/19, 25/26 . Various track and roadbed work/replacement will be accomplished on the Manhattan bound tracks south of Queens Plaza to north of 50St/6th Ave. E & F trains will operate local thru Queens because the R will not operate there. E trains will make all stops from Parsons/Archer to Whitehall St. middle track. Manhattan bound F trains will be rerouted over the G line between Queens Plaza & Bergen St. Queens bound F service will operate normal. Here is where it get complicated: There will be an additional F service along Sixth Ave. terminating at Church Ave. where passengers can transfer to the "regular" F to continue toward Coney Island. This other F will relay in Church Ave. yard, proceed lite (without passengers) to 21 St., relay again, proceed lite to 50 St./6th Ave. where it will go in service to Church Ave.
Now that's a bizarre service change ...
Mnay cities have their transit systems going into the suburbs. What should happen is extend the A to E. Rockaway, the 7 to the meadowlands, the J to Floral Park (Nassau), the E to Great Neck. and all of the Bronx lines into Westchester.
The suburban communities wouldn't want subway lines making their neighborhoods more accesable to "riff-raff". What they should do is extend some lines to cover some of the more extreme areas not now covered. Possible extensions:
The F from 179th to Francis Lewis Blvd./Hillside Ave.
The E from Jamaica Center along the LIRR ROW to Laurelton, or as subway down Parsons Blvd. to S. Conduit Ave.
The 7, from Main St., along Northern Blvd. to Francis Lewis Blvd.
The 2/5 from Flatbush along Nostrand to Voorhies Ave.
The 4, from Utica Ave, along Utica to Floyd Bennet Field.
The D, from 205th St., along Gun Hill Rd. to Co-Op city.
If they are going to extend the "F", they should terminate it at Springfield Boulevard at the least, and Little Neck Parkway at the best. Hillside Avenue is very wide at Springfield Boulevard, making i a good location for a terminal station. Francis Lewis should rate a local stop. Other stops: 188th, 197th, (FLB), 212th-Hollis Court.
If extending to Little Neck: Winchester Blvd-Creedmoor, Commonwealth Boulevard, Little Neck Parkway.
Wayne
Yonkers and Mount Vernon might be receptive to subway extensions because they are are more urban than the rest of Weschester Co. It would be plausible to extend the #1 under Broadway to the Metro-North station in Yonkers and the #5 under South 5th Avenue to Metro-North in Mount Vernon. The population density seems to be there. However, I think the MTA is far more likely to deal with service within the city limits unless there was a very strong push from Westchester. I think the county runs the Bee Line bus system without financial support from the MTA, so it may feel it deserves more for being within the MTA service area. (In fact, why aren't the Westchester buses part of the MTA?)
Some extension would be practical and/or possible but forget the J line. When the parsons Archer extension was built, there was no provision for extension of that line. What was considered was the connection between the J & E north of Parsons Blvd. This would have provided needed flexibility in the event of a closure of the Williamsburg bridge. However, this was scrapped because there was little likelihood that closing the bridge for an extended period was small (NOT). They decided to spend the money (a few million) elsewhere.
The original plan called for the extension of the E top Rodedale. There is actually a 1/2 mile of additional track north of Parsons Blvd. This plan gets trotted out every now and then but is not a high priority. This is actually the way subway service should be extended to JFK. Coming from the east (instead of the West) land is less developed and capacity on the Queens corridor is greater than on the Fulton St. line, especially with the 63rd St connector opening.
Similarly, extension of the #7 to eastern Queens and the F to Hillside and Springfield Blvd. or Langdale Street has also been considered. Extension of the 7 will likely never happen as it would be less expensive for the MTA to increase capacity and service on the LIRR Port Washington branch. If the 7 were extended out to (lets say) Douglaston, there would be adequate space for a transit hub to be built. However, the subway would essentially kill off the PW branch west of that point and over-stress the #7 line west of Main St., where capscity could not be added - easily.
Highest on the MYA priority is the extension of the N train to laGuardia Airport. This would be feasible but would likely be opposed by the locals (people - not trains) and the Port Authority who would like to compete with an extension of the Air Train. Cab drivers would also oppose such an extension and it is rumored that the Pakistani government has already stated that it would oppose such an aggressive act against their citizens. However, prison reform activists support this plan. Not only would it provide service to Rikers island for visitors but escaping prisoners would also have a 'one fare ride' back into the city.
[Highest on the MTA priority is the extension of the N train to laGuardia Airport. This would be feasible but would likely be opposed by the locals (people - not trains) and the Port Authority who
would like to compete with an extension of the Air Train. Cab drivers would also oppose such an extension and it is rumored that the Pakistani government has already stated that it would oppose such an aggressive act against their citizens. However, prison reform activists support this plan. Not only would it provide service to Rikers island for visitors but escaping prisoners would also have a
'one fare ride' back into the city.]
Something tells me that the escapees would be the sort who'd engage in a wee bit of turnstile-jumping before paying their fares. And is it just me, or is everyone else more than a bit shocked that the Pakistani government is meddling in transit affairs, of all things?
I AGREE WITH THE TURN-STILE JUMPING..(oops caps)
Hey, that could work out pretty good -- You let them out of Rikers, bus them to the subway stop and have some transit cops there so when they jump the turnstile, you arrest them and bus them back to Rikers.
And is it just me, or is everyone else more than a bit shocked that the Pakistani government is meddling in transit affairs, of all things?
The theater of the absurd is played out on many stages. This particular absurdity will be played out beneath the sidewalks of NY. Oddly enough, last year India and Pakistan were threatening each other with nuclear weapons. In a bizzar turn of events, however, the nuclear weapons have given way to Rupees, Dollars and steel rails. While Pakistan has waged a huge campaign at City Hall to block all subway service to JFK and LaGuardia, the Indian government has been funneling huge sums of Rupees into the imminent senetorial campaign war-chest of Hillary Clinton (who favors the subway extension). Pakistan has been doing likewise for the mayor who figures to be the Republican nominee. After a private meeting with the first lady, the Indian ambassador stated that Mrs. Clinton is committed to extending the N train right up to the USAir terminal and she will not rest until every Pakistani cab driver has been driven from the streets of Queens. This announcement was met with tremendous approval in NewDelhi.
Ah Steve superintendent of Cashmere subway sweaters!
"While Pakistan has waged a huge campaign at City Hall to block all subway service to JFK and LaGuardia, the Indian government has been funneling huge sums of Rupees into the imminent senetorial campaign war-chest of Hillary Clinton (who favors the subway extension). Pakistan has been doing likewise for the mayor who figures to be the Republican nominee."
Fee Fi Fo Fum. Methinks I smell a troll! (^:
"After a private meeting with the first lady, the Indian ambassador stated that Mrs. Clinton is committed to extending the N train right up to the USAir terminal and she will not rest until every Pakistani cab driver has been driven from the streets of Queens."
Damn, that troll is coming in loud and clear now! (^;
But if India succeeds in getting rid of all the Pakistani cab drivers, aren't they just asking for a retaliatory strike (through the Health Department) against the Indian Dunkin Donuts franchisees?
[Before anyone takes their flamethrowers out, that last one is a joke too. I patronize Indian-owned donut shops, concession stands, corner pharmacies, etc. all the time. But just as the **stereotypical** cabbie is Pakistani, the **stereotypical** Dunkin Donuts or newsstand operator is Indian.]
I'll bet you the moon that Hilliary Clinton has never taken a ride on any subway in the world. She rides in limos with armed Secret Service Agents. What does she know about rapid transit and riding an Airplane out of LaGuardia Airport?
John Bredin, Esq., she is a well trained attorney and polished politician. I don't believe that seasoned New Yorker's will fall for her.
In regards to rapid transit, she should ride the subway in New York with her Secret Service Agents. They should not stop the subway trains everytime her limo passes over or under a subway line like her husband Bill. She wouldn't get my vote if my train stopped to let her go by.
Maybe she should build that "Bridge to the 21st Century" like her husband promised and that bridge would be both the Williamsburg and Manhattan Bridges.
Unfortunately, the Democratic Party has shown what a low opinion they have for the NY voter by trotting out the first lady as a viable candidate. Former Governor (and embarrassment) Mario Cuomo says Hilly knows the issues since the senate issues are national and not local. However she does not have the understanding of what votes are important to NY. The loss of Al D'Amato and his position on the Senate Banking Committee has already led tot he loss of nearly $100 million in transit funds for NY. With Chucky and Hilly teamed up, we'll have ox-carts on the rails (and no R-68 comments please).
Steve, help me out here. Just who in the ---- put the idea in Hillary Clinton's head that anybody in New York wanted her here anyways? Thanks, Salvo.
Steve and Salvatore: Right on about Hillary. I'm glad I'm coming to New York this summer because, so help me GOD, if New Yorkers are dumb and stupid enough to elect that crooked, nasty, and disdainful carperbagger I'll never set foot in New York again. Please, don't make the mistake of putting her in. What a catastrophe that would be.
On a more pleasant note, I need some information from you residing New Yorkers. Is there any progress being made concerning the improvements on the Manhattan Bridge? Again, so help me, I was thinking about the Canal Street station that precedes the crossing of the bridge. When I rode the Sea Beach as a kid to my grandparents' houses, Canal Street meant that we were heading for Brooklyn, which to me then was God's Country. Can someone tell of the timeline for completing the bridge's
imrovements? I would like to see my favorite train cross that bridge
again.
Fred, I'm afraid I cant'tell you too much about the current progress being made on the bridge. Since I work out here on Long Island, I really only get close to the city on weekends. I'm sure one of the other guys can give you the information you're looking for. They've answered a lot of my questions. I hope you have fun when you make it up here. Take care, Salvatore.
I'm sorry but I can't help you with anything more than a very rough time-line. Seems like the best estimates are 2001. Best we can offer you is the B/D/Q across the bridge on the other side.
Maybe you've covered this before, Fred, But I'm curious.
What is it about the Sea Beach that you like so much? Why did you pick it over other lines as your favorite?
You wanna know what is possible???First of all,Queens is the only place that has little subway.Here is one thing expand the F line to where it is at 179St. then to the Nassau/Queens Border.These will be the new stations.1)188st.2)197st.3)Francis Lewis Blvd.4)212St.5)Springfield Blvd./Bradddock Av.6)Wenchester7)Cross Island Pkwy.8)Little Neck Pkwy. and last 9)268St..This line could use 2 levels.The lowest level will be storage and use 4 Tracks also the higher level.
How about an LRV on the old Rockaway Branch from Queens Blvd to Howard Beach?
[But if India succeeds in getting rid of all the Pakistani cab drivers, aren't they just asking for a retaliatory strike (through the Health Department) against the Indian Dunkin Donuts franchisees?
Before anyone takes their flamethrowers out, that last one is a joke too. I patronize Indian-owned donut shops, concession stands, corner pharmacies, etc. all the time. But just as the **stereotypical** cabbie is Pakistani, the **stereotypical** Dunkin Donuts or newsstand operator is Indian.]
Chicago must be different from New York - at least as far as I've noticed, Indians don't seem to dominate the donut-shop business. What most likely is that different immigrant groups cluster in different specific occupations depending on location. For instance, I've heard that most donut shop operators in Southern California are Cambodian.
Actually, the next Indian-Pakastani conflict will be fought on the battlefields of the local 7 - 11s
Or within the halls of my current employer. One of the things I've learned is who I can and cannot assign to the same projects or have share offices. The multi-ethnic setting can be a wonderful experience but it can also be a real headache! I made the mistake of putting two Indians from significantly different castes in the same office about three years ago, and I've had a person of mainland Chinese origin refuse to work with one of South Korean origin. And my Hispanics don't care to work with my Jamaican (who gets along just fine with everyone else). I've given up trying to understand it all - I've got more work to be done than they can all do anyway so I just sort them accordingly and things work.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If London Transport could start again from scratch, I don't think they would contemplate extensions beyond the London area (currently the eastern end of the Central Line and the Western end of the Metropolitan Line). They are a funding nightmare, and whenever a piece of infrastructure wears out, no-one wants to pay for it. This is particularly the case for the Central Line, as Essex County Council is pretty anti-public transport.
Why Not Extend The "E" Line To Green Acres Shopping Mall In Valley Stream LI Via Merrick Blvd (The MTA's Q5 Bus Currently Serves This Route From the Parsons/Archer Station (E,J,Z) To Green Acres). The "E" Line has Two Tracks That Curve to the Se. for approx 3000 Feet Beyond the platforms at Parsons/Archer station. These tracks were Originally Planed to extend from 179th Street Station on the "f" line (& the "E" Line Prior To Archer Ave Ext.) As part of the IND Second System In 1925 Later Revised in 1975 (From Book Uptown Downtown) This route would travel south from 179th st/Hillside av to LIRR Montauk Branch And then Se. Along LIRR Right of way to Springfield Gardens, Queens. This Ext. could be a Express Only route. The "A" Line Can Be Extendend to meet this line from Lefferts blvd Station to Liberty Avenue/Merric Blvd Then continue with the "E" To Green Acres Mall.
Also In Brooklyn extend the IRT #2 Line S. From Brooklyn College/Flatbush Ave Station South on Flatbush ave To Avenue "U" & Kings Plaza Shopping Mall.
Both Kings Plaza In Brooklyn And Green Acres Shopping Center In Valley Stream Can Be Used As Transit Hubs And Park & Ride Lots.
Green Acres Is Served By Bus Routes MTA Q5, Q85 Lines And MTA Long Island Bus Routes N1, N2 & N3. Kings Plaza Is Served By MTA B2, B3, B9, B41, B46, B78 And Green Bus Lines Route Q35.
Great ideas, but how do you propose to pay for this?
Put those three cars into use for the GCT, and also make them as guinea pigs for an experimental R-type similar to the new B division R143s, with all the automatic R143 fixings, except that this one would be IRT division.
How do-able would this experiment be?
Sorry if I am opening a new can of worms here....
It's gonna take a lot of body doctors to fix those three up. #1436 is the least damaged (bonnet, anticlimber #1 end).
#1435: Bent frame, anticlimber (BOTH ends), broken bonnets (both ends) crush damage to sides #1 end
#1439: Bonnet, anticlimber and roof damage #2 end; body damage to left side. Picture of cop standing in open door did not show any damage but it was all further back. #1439 got clipped by #1440 before the latter ricocheted into the sheared-off #2 end of #1437.
Wayne
Even if they could be repaired, there's no point in putting R-143-type doodads in them as a test bed. The R-142 and R-142A series (total 1,080 cars), which are now in production, will already have these doodads. The only major thing the R-143 will have that the R-142/142A won't is CBTC (Communications-Based Train Control) capability. That's because the IRT doesn't have any CBTC-equipped lines and won't for some time (probably never if the Canarsie Line CBTC experiment doesn't work).
David
They could probably do it on the Flushing line, but obviously not as long as they plan to use either the Redbirds or the R-62As on it.
That sucks
If there was a (real) Subway race what type of subway car would you use? Everyone has to has a subway car that is their personnal favorite car. If I had to Race I would use the R-62 car #1350 and where would be a good place to race?
Brighton Line from Sheepshead Bay to Church Avenue.
I'd probably want an R40 (#4314, #4399, #4208 or #4163) to race with, as usual.
Wayne
i would use 1608 on the 6, 1701 and 1708
from 125 st to brroklyn bridge
if they fit on the west side the A train line till wtc building.. end of c train
I'd take the R62 or R62A onto the Central Park W IND between 125th and 59th or the Lexington Avenue Line between 125th and Brooklyn Bridge.
I'd choose a BMT Triplex.
Slow to get started, but once it got moving it would crush the competition.
Literally.
You're right - the Triplex was one unit you did not want to have a collision with. Two of them did collide once, at Stillwell Ave. in 1955. There must have been one helluva bang when that occurred.
I would have loved to see a train of multisectionals go up against any other piece of equipment. Those units could most likely outrun even the R-10s in their heyday.
Speaking of collisions, one would have to wonder what would have happened if a Triplex had ever collided with a BMT standard. I think even a standard would have come away with a dent or two. Of course, the standards never did pick on anyone their own size...
Nothing like a good old subway demolition derby...
My favorite car is th super fast R68's.
What drugs are you taking? I'd like to try them. R-68. Huruphf!
From a professional point of veiw: Discarding the original R-44/46 because they no longer carry that propulsion gear. I would have to say the R-127/134. Yes they are not passenger cars, but they are the fastest. So fast (60 is do-able) that RTO had to issue a bulletin ordering them not to be run faster than 45 MPH. Take them to the Rockaways. Starting at the top of the North Channel Bridge, and running to Broad Channel. The work motors will beat any thing you could throw at em!
Of course I'd be cheating. Less weight and more horse power.
You're being facetious, right? The R-68s would have a chance in a turtle race with the Q units or maybe the R-44s. That's it.
Greetings fellas. I may be in Philly in a week, if I go I want to ride around on the SEPTA. Which SEPTA trains are using the AEM7's? Also, which lines? I know the line to Paoli/Downington hosts them, but the Media line too?? What are your opinions on the SEPTA Bombardier coaches? Someone told me they where pretty rough riding.
-Josh
P.S.-When you get the chance, check out my website some time at:
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/covent/929
The push-pull trains generally operate on R5 Paoli but can also be found on R7 Trenton. I believe the operation on R3 Media/Elwyn ended last summer. At any rate, you won't find them except for the peak hours, so you'll need to pay the higher fare to ride.
I haven't been on the Bombardier cars but I've heard the ride is a little rough.
I have ridden the push pulls- they like to use them on the R7 Express services. They dor die rough and the seats resemble those used on NJTs Atlantic City Line- not as comfy as their regular seats (both before renovation--the vinyl seats, and after- the gray fabric seats).
I wonder why it's the summer and the MTA is still running some trains, including express trains, in 11-car configurations, with that un-airconditioned R33 car sandwiched in the middle? Any reason why they are still doing that?
Lots and lots of people packed on the trains. Ridership is up, and removing the extra car cuts train capacity, which they need. Regular riders know which car to avoid on the train (third from the Queens end) In fact, just came from Shea, where the Mets beat the Yankees 9-8.
-Hank
The ever curious person I continue to be, what kind of locomotives / trainsets are used on particular NJT lines?
Anything is appreciated - the reason being that next week I will be scheduled to take a RT ride from New York Penn Station to Dover, my first outing using NJT. Does anyone at least know what's used there?
I believe the line to Dover (Morris & Essex) is electrified, so you should find either electric MU cars or electric diesels pulling any of NJTransit's passenger car equipment. I believe the passenger cars generally used there are the newer cars. I think the Morris & Essex may be the only electric line out of Hoboken (the main terminal, even though many trains originate at Penn Station via the fairly new Midtown Direct connection). The other lines are diesel. The lines out of Penn Station (Northeast Corridor & Jersey Coast) are electric lines. For lots of info on NJTransit and its equipment, see the Unofficial NJTransit webpage at http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~mjs6/hoboken.html
njt uses locomotive hauled equiment out penn station ny. the is a phase break where the locomotive changes voltages outside of harrison. comet III and IV are used on that line. the mu's run out hoboken along with diesel engines.
I ride the Morris & Essex from South Orange, NJ. 90% of the time trains comming from Dover are ALPs. Usually they are pulled into Penn (on the Midtown Direct service)and pushed heading the opposite way. Also NJT used their Arrows MUs on the Gladstone branch heading for Hoboken(the Arrow can't change at the phase break a little beyond Harrison. Very now and then you see a disel comming from the dover area but those are strictly heading for Hoboken (they aren't allowed in the Penn tunnels). If anything if you ride on a ALP push/pulled train it's better pushed because you can see out front (no loco in the way). The same is true on the Arrow heading for Hoboken but only if the engineer decide to leave the door to the cab open (either because it's hot out or they feel like talking to the conductors on board)
It's a cool line, two good phase breaks, you have one grade crossing (Convent station), two bridges, and the tunnel into Penn. A little bit of everything...
Ok, is this phase break where the voltage goes to the rumored 25kv that NJT uses? Also, doesn't NJT have a few 25K MUs?
I don't know the exact voltage NJtransit uses, but there is a definate phase break on the Morris & Essex about midway from South Orange and Maplewood. I know NJts Arrows can go thru that phase break but not the one past Harrison where the line connect with the line headed for Penn. If anyone knows the exact voltage used on each line I would like to know..
The trolley voltage changes at the corridor. It goes to 11k. On the Hobboken side it's 25k. All NJT equipment can be run in either voltage. Only the ALP44 locomotives can change on the fly. The ArrowIII MU cars must be manually reset in EACH car. Not convienient and only rarely done. Hence Arrows etiher run out of Pennsylvania station or Hoboken. But never crossing from one to the other. When going to the MMC for maintainence, they drop the pantographs, and are hauled by one of NJT's GP40-2 engines.
Is that manual reset just flipping a switch, or do they have to grab a wrench and change the lead from on transformer tap to another?
There's a togle switch in the computer cabinet of the even car.
I have a copy of the NJT rule book. The rules say that a 12K car can not be run on the 25K side. For services that cross the line (MidTown Direct) they use the push pull Comet Cars and the ALP44M locomotives which do switch from one to the other automatically. However, when MidTown Direect first started even the ALPs had some power drop outs and resulting breakdowns. NJT has gone through the learning curve and now there are very few problems.
On the side of each Arrow MU car you'll see 25K or 12K indcating the voltage.
The Hoboken sdie is 25K because NJT thought Amtrak was going to go to 25K however Amtrak stuck with the 12K. I'm sure Bob S with NJ ARP could elaborate more.
Those rules are for operating personnel. They DO NOT have the key for the computer cabinet. Only electricians do. And whenever cars are switched from divisions the decals are changed. This is purely a function of the mechanical dept.(our DCE) at request of the transportation dept (our RTO).
Which book are you looking at? The TRO electrical instruction book or the NORAC time table special instructions?
Does anyone have any further info on the Washington Hights tunnel.
I think its 180-190 feet underground. Why is it so deep? It's not under a river. Was it some sort of mining tunnel before it became a subway tunnel?
Washington Heights is aptly named - it is high ground. The route of the #1 train is essentially level. When the ground dips, as it does at 125th St. and again at Dyckman St., the train runs on elevated structure above the ground. When the ground rises, the train winds up deeper underground. I don't have exact figures, but any changes in the elevation above sea level of the #1 line along the whole stretch from 116th St. to Dyckman St. are minimal compared to the changes in elevation of the surface. From Dyckman to 242nd St. it's still pretty level. Probably the first mile after the #1 splits from the #2 and #3 (96th to 116th St.) has greater changes in elevation, as it follows the surface of Broadway, than the whole rest of the line to 242nd St.
People claim that not only can't the 75 foot cars clear a few curves on the Eastern Div., but that they are too wide for the span of the Williamsburg bridge, and I also heard about some problem with tunnel lights on the Nassau line. Since the sides of the cars are curvier, everyone assumes they must be wider at the bulge. But I thought it was possible that they could simply be narrower at the top. At first I tried to compare visually. They didn't seem to hang over the bottom any more than the R-40/42's which are curved, but not as much.
Then, while running to the GCT museum store to get the new Map,(Thanks, WMATAGMOH!) I ran across a book titles domething like "The Evolution of the NYC Subways", which was about all the different cars, from the earliest el cars to the R-142. It featured drafts of the dimensions. So I was right, that the roofline of the R-44, 46, 68 and 110B are narrower, at 9'0, than the widest part of the body, which is the same 9'9 as all the rest of the B div. cars., and the threshold is 10'0 In fact, on many of the older cars, the threshold is 4/7" wider, and other objects, such as guard lights also stick out, since the top is not curved in like the newer cars.(and this people should remember when pointing out "the 67ft B types often got their lights knocked off") So there is no problem with 75 foot cars on the Willy B bridge spa itself, or any other straight section of the eastern div.
So since one of the problem curves, on the eastern end of the span, has been rebuilt, and apparently eased, when it reopens, they should do tests with the 75 ft cars, and see if other questionable curves, like Myrtle Av. and Graham Av. are really a problem. If the former isn't, then they could do on the M what they do on the 5: have OPTO, and run the cars to Brooklyn rush hours. (If Graham is too tight, they could demolish the catwalk on the southbound track, and that would definitely clear up the problem.)
If they can't do either, it would be nice to have a fantrip or free special over the bridge to Canarsie or Eastern Pkwy on reopening day
The curve from the B'way line to the Myrtle line is too tight to allow 75' cars.
And while the 60' cars are a maximum of 9'9" wide, the 75' cars come to 10' over the threshold plates, which can easily be cut back. Putting a ruler to the R46 page, finds the bulge to also be 10'. This CANNOT be changed. Looking at the R110B, the car is 9'7" wide over the side sheets.
-Hank
From what I saw, the older equipment is not only also 10' over the threshold, but many of them are 4/7 wider. On the pages I saw, the 9'9 of the 75 ft cars was measured at the bulge, and as I saw, it did not hang over the threshold any more than than the 40/42's.
Speaking of the 110B's, I forgot to mention that the trucks were measured at 47' apart (center to center) and this was the same as the AB's. The 110B's were supposedly banned from the eastern div. because "the trucks were placed like 60ft cars and that makes the body swing out more". The 60 ft cars are 44' apart, (and the 75ft cars are 54' apart). So what then is the real problem with the 110B's?
Or, could this book have printed errors?
Well, the book does have several errors, but the drawing and included car info on the tech pages seems to be accurate.
-Hank
The book, "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual" shows the widest part of the R-46 (at the belly-band) at 9'9" wide.
If the Manhattan bridge is ever determined to be too unsound for B div. trains, perhaps the lighter smaller IRT cars would be less of a problem. Not only the weight, but also with the narrower cars both tracks could probably fit in the middle roadway, ending the torsion problem.
A ramp would be built from north of Atlantic to the lower level of Nevins St. and the tracks would continue straight down Flatbush Av. ext. and merge with the BMT tunnel somewhere along the line (The BMT wouldn't be running through there anymore, so you could reconfigure the ROW any way necessary). On the other side, it would use the existing tunnel leading to Canal St, but somewhere before the station (would be permanently cut off), you would turn off into a ramp to the Lexington line. It would come up in Spring St., where the line already has an extra trackway. The downtown express track would becone the new Brooklyn bound ramp, the extra middle track would become the new express, the uptown express would stay the same, and the uptown local would be moved over for the new uptown bridge track. If there is not enough space to do that, the uptown exp. would become the ramp track, and the local would stay the same. You would only be able to have peak direction exp. service to lower Manhattan on the middle track.
Under this idea, either the 6 would switch tracks at Brooklyn Bridge, and continue to Brooklyn, OR, the 6 express would finally become the 8, and run express in Manhattan as well. Between the 5 and the 8, one would go over the bridge with the 4, and the other one go through the tunnel. I'm not sure how to terminate the extra service in Brooklyn; perhaps one could switch over at Franklin and provide direct Lexington service to New Lots. Perhaps the junction near Franklin would have to be redone into a flying crossover to allow for this. And additional cars would be required.
I know this would be hightly unlikely, given all the construction required, but I just wanted to see what everyone thinks of it. There would be nonstop service between Nevins and 14th St
6 to the 8 train????Thats a laugh.... Never ever say that bout the 6 but its a good idea
But then the 6 would not be the Brooklyn bridge local anymore
Sounds confusing. I wouldn't like that at all. Then, there is no service to south of Canal Street or Boro Hall and Downtown Brooklyn unless I took the local which I would not do. I'd maybe make a 6th Avenue line from 21st Street join the 8th Avenue Line at W 4th Street using the tracks the JFK line used and go to WTC as a local the whole way down.
To both WMATAGMOH and John Betancourt, you would still have the 2 express tracks (or perhaps one if they couldn't widen that section of ROW) heading to Lower Manhattan, and either the 8 or the 5 would run express and through the tunnel (the bridge trains would turn out from the express tracks at Spring), and this would allow the 6 to still be the local to Brooklyn Bridge. One option would be just to extend the 6, and I included that in the event there were not yet enough cars, but it would be better to keep the 6 local the same and make the 6 express the 8, and make it express in Manhattan, and keep one express going through lower Manhattan.
The middle section of the Manhattan Bridge (between the two pairs of tracks) currently carries three traffic lanes. It is plenty wide enough for two tracks of B-division trains. It is wide enough for three but not quite for four. It may not be strong enough to carry trains without additional strengthening.
The side areas which currently carry trains could carry two lanes of passenger-car-only traffic each. At just over 10 feet wide the lanes would be too narrow for trucks and buses.
I don't think this switching of trains to the middle of the bridge is very practical, but even if were done, there would be no reason to make the new (centered) tracks be IRT. Unless you wanted to put four of them on the bridge, which doesn't seem to be what you had in mind.
If they wanted to reduce the weight. You know there's always the chance they'll decide it can't carry the trains that run now, but the IRT is lighter, and that may be an option, even though all the nceessary construction to connect it would be the barrier.
I always assumed the trains were wider than the traffic lanes, so it didn't look like you could fit as many lanes. If four IRT tracks could fit, then put the 7th Avenue on it as well (tracks would branch off the outer tracks between Atlantic & Nevins, and continue on Canal until the 7th Av line. An additional express would be needed to serve the tunnel, it could originate at 137th St, but you would have 6 IRT routes in Brooklyn.
But where would the BMT go?????
Better idea. Run the PCCs from Red Hook to Manhattan, up the center of Broadway. Its as likely to happen as anything else.
BUT, where are you gonna get the PCC's??
Well, Bob Diamond and company have a couple. And they could jump into the bidding war for the ones in Newark... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As promised, here's a report on the Boston Green Line Type-8 cars, from information gathered at this evening's Boston Street Railway Association (BSRA) meeting.
Cars 3802, 3803, and 3804 have been accepted and continue in limited revenue service. Cars 3805 and 3806 have been delivered and are undergoing acceptance testing. (3800 and 3801 are prototype/test cars.) So things are going very slowly.
From the Mattapan-Ashmont PCC rebuild program, it is anticipated that the first car to be completed, 3265, will be outshopped later this month or early next month. It has been decided, by the way, to repaint the fleet in the original orange and creme colors and design. So when Newark's fleet is gone in the not-too-distant future, we in Boston will have a revitalized PCC fleet for decades to come!
Whew! Today's transit day started on the 5:06 a.m. E Train departure from World Trade Center, and ended this evening at the BSRA meeting in downtown Boston. Somewhere in the middle was eight hours of weather on the 8's!
Thank you very much for the info, Todd! I'm sorry I wasn't in town to here your weather forecasts....I'll have to tune in sometime. -Nick
Was it Car #3668 or Car #3669? A couple of sources say #3669, but one source claims #3668.
Moreover, it now claims that 3669 is indeed in an odd pairing with 3628.
Has anyone seen 3628 (or 3669) recently?
The car that was wrecked at the Malbone Portal on Dec. 1, 1974 was indeed #3669. And you are absolutely correct when you cite the Odd Couple #3628-3669. #3668, undamaged in the incident, was converted from an even-numbered to an odd-numbered unit, and thus renumbered #3669. It was then paired with #3628, whose mate lost her A-end in a 1971 collision north of 59th Street. See the picture of this wreck in the R32 Roster section. (It may be erroneously numbered as #3628). My Dad, who worked at 207th Street, has #3629's curtain roll.
#3628-3669 were last sighted on the "C" and probably are out of Pitkin Yard although there's been a car swap, so they may be at Jamaica now.
Wayne
3628-3669 are still part of the Pitkin fleet.
Thank you, Bill; their "C"s will stay.
Wayne
Well, R62 #1391 was damaged by a bomb and by an accident at Wakefield Yard, yet still survived both incidents.
Any other car which can match #1391 in unluckiness and story of survival?
#1391 was at the opposite end of the consist during the Wakefield incident - it was #1400 that took the sock in the kisser from #8980.
#4328-4329 was in the consist during two "B" train accidents - one on August 15, 1994 and the other on Feb. 9, 1995, but were not damaged in either incident. Oddly enough, the cars sustaining damage were #4260 and #4259, only one number apart, but in separate pairs.
Wayne
"Things" start to happen to "unlucky" cars. Superstition runs deep.
The lead car of an LIRR train that killed a trackworker was torched. The car where Colin Ferguson went on his rampage had its interior replaced and was renumbered.
The name of Malbone Street was changed. Boston passed a law specifying that no nightclub could be called "Cocoanut Grove" after the famous fire. Bon Vivant soup passed from existence after a botulism incident.
Surprisingly, the LIRR has changed neither the train number nor the departure time of tge death train--the 5:33pm Hicksville Local still runs.
I've wondered why the LIRR will not schedule a train #1. Until a couple of years ago, the lowest numbered trains were Montauk runs. Now trains 1-200 are Babylon trains, but the lowest numbered train is still #2.
["Things" start to happen to "unlucky" cars. Superstition runs deep.
The lead car of an LIRR train that killed a trackworker was torched. The car where Colin Ferguson went on his rampage had its interior replaced and was renumbered.
The name of Malbone Street was changed. Boston passed a law specifying that no nightclub could be called "Cocoanut Grove" after the famous fire. Bon Vivant soup passed from existence after a botulism incident.]
Was the torched car the one that was burned at Huntington, and can be seen today at Hillside Yard?
BTW - While most of Malbone Street was renamed Empire Boulevard, a short stretch still bears the original name. And IIRC, you don't see Bon Vivant soup any longer because the company failed after the incident.
But note that airlines are quick to change flight numbers after crashes. You won't find a flight 800 on TWA anymore.
Was the torched car the one that was burned at Huntington, and can be seen today at Hillside Yard?
It was at Hillside, nearer the Montauk Branch. I suppose what's there now is the same one.
BTW - While most of Malbone Street was renamed Empire Boulevard, a short stretch still bears the original name.
But the remaining piece is parallel to, but on the saw alignment as, current Empire Blvd. There has to be a story to that snippet of road, but I've never heard it.
And IIRC, you don't see Bon Vivant soup any longer because the company failed after the incident.
Not sure, but I think the Bon Vivant name was owned by a bigger company, and they dropped it.
But note that airlines are quick to change flight numbers after crashes. You won't find a flight 800 on TWA anymore.
In general, people are becoming more blase about that stuff (but maybe not crashed airplanes). People seem to have forgotten the bad associations of Tylenol and the MGM Grand Hotel. Philadelphia's Bellevue Stratford was renamed after Legionaire's Disease, but now its the Bellevue Stratford again.
Was it P.T. Barnum who said "I don't care what you say about me, as long as you spell my name right"?
Where is the current Malbone St located?
Its about 7 blocks east of the wreck site and a block north of Empire Blvd.
Then it got to be in my old neighborhood(Crown Heights). Not too far from where I went to school. P.S.221 The Empire School. By either Schenctady or Utica Avenues.
For those who are interested in the exact location of today's Malbone Street:
It runs west from New York Avenue between Empire Boulevard and Montgomery Street and goes a half block to a side street called Clove Road. Closest station is Sterling Street (#2/#5).
Wayne
Wow!!!! I was just there a couple of weeks ago renting a car. I was on Empire between Clove Rd and NY. I never went up on Clove Rd. I would pass it driving down Montgomery................
I heard there was a section of Brooklyn called Yellow Hook, and it's name was changed because of some didease. Forgot where exactly it was, but somewhere over on the harbor
You must be talking about Red Hook......................
No, it was an entirely different section that was renamed, I think near Bay Ridge, or something. So there was Red Hook AND Yellow Hook.
I believe that the car in which the shooting occurred was #9892. Do you know if its new number?
Wayne
Don't know the exact number, but I believe it was numbered at the top of the series. That would make it, what, 9951? 9971? I think its mate was renumbered, too.
That would make it #9947-9948. I'll be on the lookout for it.
Wayne
One source claims 212, and another claims 216. What is the correct number? (I assume that they want full 8-car fleets, hence I hope 216 is the number they are going to deliver...)
Also, any knowledge on what numbers are going to be assigned to the new R143s?
The exact number of cars is 212 (100 in the base order, plus an option for 112). I don't know the numbers yet.
David
[One source claims 212, and another claims 216. What is the correct number? (I assume that they want full 8-car fleets, hence I hope 216 is the number they are going to deliver...)
Also, any knowledge on what numbers are going to be assigned to the new R143s?]
Hello folks, Please be advised that the # 7 line is now running 10 car trains!!!!!!!! Somebody must have smelled the coffee. So watch out for the gap on the north end. This looks so much better maybe they should keep it this way. also they run better and stop better WITHOUT the single car.
Just because the single cars have fans instead of a/c, that doesn't mean the cars are defective. Long live the single cars!
I concur!
I object!
LONG SLOW AND PAINFUL DEATH FOR THE SINGLE CARS (sorry for the caps but I was very emotional about that).
So that the conductor cn point to the board, Manhattan bound 10 car # 7 trains stop at the 11 car marker meaning the last car gets a double load. Flushing bound trains stop one car length short of the 11 car marker so the first car get a double load. Mark my words: some newspaper and or TV station will yell that #7 line riders are getting screwed because they now have to squeeze into a10 car train rather than an 11 car train. And the TA will be raked over the coals by the NY media for it. No matter what the TA does, they are always wrong.
I don't understand why they can't run R-62s on the 7 and transfer the R-36s to the mainline.
Remember that the Flushing cars are set up with BMT-IND style trips. Only the singles are set up both ways. Because of this things tend to stay put. 11 car trains will probably return in September when things cool down and traffic picks up!
[ Remember that the Flushing cars are set up with BMT-IND style trips.
Only the singles are set up both ways. Because of this things tend to
stay put. 11 car trains will probably return in September when things
cool down and traffic picks up! ]
This is a rather common misconception. Unfortunately, it's not true. Take a look next time you're on the flushing line. The trip arms are on-sides (On the right), IRT-style, as opposed to off-side, BMT-style. The R33S cars do have tripcocks on both sides, however, which is necessary whenever a move is made off of the flushing line, via the Astoria line.
If the trip arms _were_ off-sides, there wouldn't be the need to have a 33S lead the train when making moves to the shops, as the trip would be entirely with off-side trip-arms.
Oh you mean the old red-birds??? Why dont they just put a/c's and heaters in them ?
There isn't enough room under the car body to place an A/C unit.
Only the single-car R33WF cars on the Flushing line are not A/C equipped, because unlike married pairs, which split the propulsion, braking, and converter equipment between the 2 cars, the single units have all that equipment under one car, leaving no extra room for the A/C compressor and condenser. (The blower and heat exchanger are on top of the car) An excellant resource for this is on www.howstuffworks.com, with the specific process here.
-Hank
Here's a way to solve the problem: Lengthen the platforms and run 12 , cool, perfectly AC'd cars. LOL
Remember that some of those platforms might be difficult to lenghten owing to their construction. Regular el platforms are fairly easy but Queensboro Plaza is pretty tight, especially the lower level (though the BMT side is 600', the IRT side has the sharp curve from Court House Sq.
Vernon-Jackson and Hunters Point Av. may also be tough along with 5th Av. & Times Sq.
Then there is the question of cars, since the IRT isn't exactly swimming in equipment at present. (It will be when the new cars come, but...)
You could probably fit 12 at 33st,40st,46st.
I donot understand. Thanks For your help Tom
john
As of when? I rode the #7 on Friday afternoon and the R-33 singles were right where they're supposed to be.
David
[Hello folks, Please be advised that the # 7 line is now running 10 car trains!!!!!!!! Somebody must have smelled the coffee. So watch out for the gap on the north end. This looks so much better maybe they should keep it this way. also they run better and stop better WITHOUT the single car.]
They may have added some extra 10-car trains because of the Yankees-Mets series at Shea this weekend. Somebody needs to check out the line on Monday during rush hour and see if they've decided more crowded -- but all air-conditions trains -- are what's going to run for the rest of the summer.
They cut them down Friday after the PM rush. I question the timing of this event and the complete closing and bypassing of Queensboro Plaza lower level this weekend in light of the sold out crowds at Shea Stadium this wekend for Yankees vs. Mets.
[ This looks so much better maybe they should
keep it this way. also they run better and stop better WITHOUT the
single car. ]
Upon what basis do you say that they run better and stop better without the R33S in the consist? The R33s should have pretty much identical performance characteristics as compared to the R36's..
Here is the picture that i took R30 #8336 & 8265 last week at Grand Concourse Yard.Noted: They are married pair
Nice picture!
-Stef
Looks like they're being used as a tool shed or 'slumber room' by the yard crew. (the all to obvious staircase at the front end)
Doug aka BMTman
It is a school car for Train Operators and Conductors.All cars used for this purpose have stairs to climb up to the train.
I know there are several out there. Among them are 8424 and 25 out at Coney Island, are used for a classroom, as is a pair at 207th St. 8289 and 90 are for police training down at Coney. We also can't forget about R16 6452 at PS 248.
I've heard there's an R10 (3189) school car at Pitkin.
This is a great way to learn about the subway, from within a subway car!
-Stef
It's a school car. TA uses them for Conductor and Motorman training. There's a pair like that in several yards. The ones at 207th and Coney Island have A/C units stuffed in the windows. AC power is supplied and the windows and doors are weather sealed with foam.
Thanks! I'll add it to the R30 section and to the roster of preserved cars.
-Dave
Any time David Pirmann
David"Meaney"Justiniano
I thought I saw a post earlier about this: that the "Money Train" car is featured in another movie.
Well, I went to see Spike Lee's "Summer of Sam" (very good BTW -- captures the flavor of the times). Funny thing was that one of the previews of upcoming films was something called "Stigmata" and is some kind of "Exorcist" rip-off or remark. Twice the audience got a glimpse of the "Money Train", but it looked like it was being used to represent an actual in-service subway car. Strange.
Doug aka BMTman
Does anyone know if the 4th volume of "Silver Connections" by Phillip Coppola has appeared? Since the closing of The New York Bound Book Store I've lost my usual source for information on this series.
When I was in New York in April, I heard that Volume IV was still a work in progress. There are two sources I can recommend that might give you more up-to-date information:
1) The bookstore at the Municipal Art Society's Urban Center on Madison Avenue just south of 51st Street (in the Villard Houses). This store, incidentally, is excellent for architecture and New York in general.
2) Arnold B. Joseph, a by-appointment-only book dealer specializing in railroads. The phone number is (212) 532-0019.
By the way, I bought volumes II and III at the Urban Center. Are any copies of Volume I available anywhere?
Has anyone noticed the "Help Wanted" ad in the Sunday N Y News? The Norfolk Southern is seeking to hire experienced locomotive engineers and conductors for freight trains. This ad surprised me because I thought that these positions were filled by working up through the ranks.
You may check out the ad on page 19 of the Metro-Your Neighborhood section.
Karl B
The key word is "experienced" and in the case of Engineers,licensed.
According to the March issue of "Trains" magazine,business is booming on freight railroads and promotions alone can't fill all the openings.
Thus,they're looking for experienced people who can be put to work in a minimum amount of time. The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers maintains a job bank;openings are listed in their monthly newspaper.
The Railroad Retirement Board also lists job openings on their website. (www.rrb.gov.)
Sometimes they come looking for you. Three times this year RR's have contacted me. Since I am a certified locomotive engineer, they can get my name from a data base. Most recently NY Cross Harbor. They offered me very much less than I make now, and I declined. NS sent me a letter in April. I know their reputation for employee relations and declined. However, I did recieve a letter from Alaska, and considerd it greatly. But no. NYCTA needs me, and this is home. I feel the level of proffesionalism and training needs to be raised here. Maybe I can do something about it.
Alright wake up. Unless you clean house at the T.A. and get rid of 75% of the T/Os and C/Rs it will always be what it is with bad union contracts and deterioration of existing jobs. Oh, let's not forget our managers get rid of them too.
OK. Let's start with you, and your defeatest attitude. Loosers always loose. Winners never give up. You seem to have already given up.
Apathy is TWU's biggest problem. Just like low levels of proffesionalism affect mangement, because so many managers come from the ranks. That's good. But they bring their bad traits with them.
So sue me for being idealistic. But I love this little railroad, and I'd like to see it returned to it's former glory.
Is it me? It seems that whenever the system is at it's worst finanncial or mechanical (ussually both) state, that's when it's having it's finnest hour operationally.
The pre war days for the IRT and BMT. The 1970's for the TA. Those were the best times. Near bankruptcy or graffiti notwithstanding.
I wish you success in your efforts. There's room for improvement on both sides of the fence. Many managers need to act more professionally and get away from their "CYA" attitude. OTOH, I've noticed a lack of self discipline and work ethic on the part of newer employees. This is a reflection of society in general. Since there isn't any direct and constant supervision, operating jobs require integrity as well as self control. I hope your plans include these along with better technical training.
A few years ago you had to kill to get an engineer's job.
The Wall Street Journal pointed out that the huge revival of railroading added to a generally tight labor market has forced railroads to go scrounging for suitable help.
WSJ said that, even for the decent salaries, its hard, skilled work. You're away from your family too much, have enormous responsibility, sometimes hair-raising experiences (like running people over) and not the greatest of work conditions.
Still, if I were 30 years younger... When I was a kid, I wanted to be a boomer even more than I wanted to be a motorman. I even promised myself I wouldn't try to kill one of the callboys, no matter how early I was awakened. :-)
Amen to that! When I was downsized by my long-time employer five years ago I considered applying; NS was hiring in Raleigh for various entry-level positions. But my wife reminded me that, in light of my health history, I'd probably never be allowed to become an engineer if I even lived that long, and she's probably right, so I gave up the notion quickly.
Perhaps when I retire from my present career I can start again as a chef on Amtrak (I love to cook) - but what's the chance of them having a kosher dining car for me?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Aside from working the 14th St-Canarsie, 14th St-Fulton and Myrtle-Chambers lines, did the Multis work any other lines? Did they ever serve the Myrtle Ave. El at any time?....or the Lexington El?
Carl M.
The Multis were 9'9" over the side sills (10' over the thresholds) so they couldn't operate on those lines which retained elevated dimensions. I believe that included lower Myrtle and Lexington until the end.
The Multis were tried on the Fulton Street Line at least as far as Sands Street. The first time they were tested on Fulton Street westbound they came to grief at Franklin Avenue, damaging some steps and about 50 feet of station platform.
Most of their non-revenue testing was on the Sea Beach and most of the in-service shakedowns were on the 14th St.-Canarsie Line.
I don't have any info at hand that they ever provided revenue service other than the lines you mentioned. I'd be kinda surprised if they never made a run or two (or three or four) on the Broadway Short Line or Jamaica Line.
The Multis did operate on the #7 Franklin Av Shuttle for a brief period;February 3 to 9,1958.
Larry,RedbirdR33
If the lower Myrtle used narrower el cars, and the upgraded section had wider subway cars, then weren't there dangerous gaps when the el cars stopped at the stations where the subway cars ran?
The BU (narrower) cars had wide threshholds that made up most of the gap. These threshholds overrode the station platforms on the stations that were built for the narrower cars.
Remember that the gate cars (but not the Qs or Cs) had a conductor at every entrance to caution people to "watch their step" and assist if needed. I don't ever remember anyone ever having a problem but this arrangement would probably be considered intolerable today.
I never saw the Fulton in operation or the Cs (which provided most service in later years), but apparently the Fulton platforms were all cut back for wide cars. The C types had built up moldings outisde at floor level which made up part of the difference.
The elevated gaps at subway stations even without big thresholds on the cars would have been 6 or 7 inches. Much worse was the gap at the south end of old DeKalb Ave. on the Brighton side. You literally had to jump across that gap.
Is my recollection correct that there was more of a pronounced step-up when boarding a gate car at an "el" platform as compared to boarding a Standard? It was as if the gate cars set higher than the Standards.
Karl B
Yes, this step-up enabled the threshold or sill to clear the elevated platforms, which were closer to the car body, yet also provide an acceptable gap at subway-width platforms.
Some of the gaps on the IRT lines between Intervale
Av. and E. Tremont Ave. are also quite large. I
almost saw a young child slip through one at E.
Tremont Ave.
My sister at a very young age nearly fell in the gap between the platform and car at the south end of the W 8th St station, lower level (F). If not for my father tightly holding her hand at the time ....
--Mark
The platforms at Freeman Street, E. 174th Street and East Tremont all have noticeable curves to them; hence the gaps. I noticed one conductor on the #5 line holler out "Watch the Gap" at East Tremont Avenue earlier this year - that station has about a 25-degree curve at its south end.
Wayne
front end of Seneca Av, Metropolitan bound is like that.
If you look at the pictures this website has of the BMT multi-sections, then you will find an old one of multi's at the 160th St. station on the Jamaica line, confirming that they did indeed run on this line at some time.
BTW, why isn't there one of these cars at the Transit Museum? They seem to have one of everything else.
None of the BMT's "oddballs" were kept (Multis, the Zephyr, the Bluebird, the Green Hornet). There was not a mindset of preservation when those trains were scrapped. The Transit Museum didn't exist yet and no one thought about preserving them, so off to the scrapper they went.
Keep in mind that the picture you saw of the multi's at 160th could have been a fan trip with appropriate signage...
The Green Hornet missed the Transit Museum by decades, most others by mere years. The Hornet had the misfortune to be made of aluminum, and when that was discovered, it went to the war effort.
The Zephyr, incidentally, was a very unofficial name, since "Zephyr" as applied to trains was a trademark of the CB&Q. Other names I've heard for it were "Super Duper" and "Silver Streak."
I belive that the applelation "Super Duper" train referref to the ten R-11s . They were also called the "Million Dollar" train.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Upon closer inspection, it was a fantrip. However, there are several pictures of the Multi's running on the Brghton express which are not marked as fantrips.
Like I said, just because it isn't marked "fantrip" doesn't mean it isn't. If no one wrote "fantrip" on the slide, that bit of information tends to be missing from our photo captions. :)
True. These pics were dated 1961, about the same time that the cars were withdrawn from service. I hardly think the MTA would run cars at the end of their service life on an important line as the Brighton exp.
The Triplexes were still rolling along in 1961, and were holding down the fort on the Brighton along with the BMT standards and R-27s, which were just starting to make their presence known.
As for the el cars on Myrtle Ave. east of Broadway, they had extension plates at the door sills which filled the gap at stations along the elevated subway portion. On the unrebuilt el structure, these plates cleared the platforms by virtue of being installed high enough so that they passed above them.
So I take it that on the Multi's, the sills weren't high enough to clear the platforms. (The original question was whether the Multi's ran on the Myrtle and Lexington lines).
< So I take it that on the Multi's, the sills weren't high enough to clear the platforms. (The original question was whether the Multi's ran on the Myrtle and Lexington lines) >
If I'm understanding your comment, the answer is no, the Multi's couldn't run on lower Myrtle and Lex because the trackway/platform profile was sized for 8'9" L cars and the 9'9" multis were too wide.
IOW, the car bodies (not sills) would have hit the platforms. Like what would happen if you tried platforming a BMT-IND car at an IRT station.
I guess that's an excellent reason for the Multi's not running on lower Myrtle, etc. I always thought that there wasn't enough of to hold down the service in the late '50s as half the original order was scrapped around that time. They would have been ideal for the entire line.
Carl M.
The b*tch of the whole thing is that the TA was planning to order new lighter weight cars for the Myrtle and 3rd Avenue el in the Bronx--they even mentioned it in official writings--for delivery c.1971.
But the era was such that they realized they could get away with simply abandoning the lines. So they killed two birds with one stone.
That was the R-39 order which never materialized, was it not?
I believe that was the order number. I understand the cars actually got to the drawing stage.
Those extension plates sound like a very clever solution to a tricky problem. I regret not having seen them in service. I suppose the idea could even be used today, if the need arose, to create cars that could run on both A and B divisions. Except that the step up required to board would make the cars not ADA-compliant...
Still, when the R-33WF's are retired from the Flushing line, perhaps a few could be fitted with such extension plates and used for fantrips that would cover trackage of both divisions. They already have the dual tripcocks they would need for this.
I think that a good idea on the customize screen would be an extra line telling SubTalk what NOT to display, so I can help trim down on these long threads that I don't care for.
Usually a full IRT train consists of 10 cars except #7 line. What is the history of this arrangement for the 11-car #7 trains?
I searched this answer in www.nycsubway.org, but could not find it.
Thanks a lot!
Chaohwa
Extra capacity. The platforms are long enough for it. It's still shorter than a 10-car BMT-IND train, however (550' vs 600')
-Hank
All stations on the #7 were extended to hold 11 cars for the 1964-'65 World's Fair.
I spoke to one of my bridge partners today, who works for NYCT.
According to him, NYCT indeed wants to commemorate the 95th anniversary of the system by running a vintage train on the Times Square Shuttle that day. They apparently want to run a BMT Triplex if they can, by what he said...He didnt know if this meant the Triplex on display currently at the Transit Museum, or if this would be a different one.
He said the deciding factor would be if they could get the equipment into running shape by the anniversary.
Has anyone else heard anything about this, or about any other plans to commemorate the system's 95th Anniversary?
Well, the credibility of the story is in question right off the bat since there is no way they are going to get a BMT Triplex onto the Times Square-Grand Central Shuttle. However, I think it's likely that they will commemorate the event using the Low-V cars on the shuttle like they did for the 90th.
It's good to see the TA marking the 90th and probably 95th anniversaries in an appropriate way. I'm really hoping for a big bash for the 100th anniversary...maybe a parade and/or fireworks display like for the NYC's 100th b-day...and maybe free rides for the whole day, or at least during the workday...9-5 -Nick
I think it would be a lot more appropriate to charge a nickel. Which can very easily be accomodated with MC. Maybe they can fit those "Autogate" readers with boxes that look like ticket choppers and let all the passengers use them.
I think they do have the technology to do such, it would be too much of a money loss to have 5 cent rides or free rides. The WMATA had free rides the day the green line opened in 1993 until 4PM (I'm not sure about AM Rush) but for Glenmont's opening on July 25, 1998, you could only get a free ride if you originated there, got a ticket from the station manager, and showed it to the station manager at your destanation. I think we'll see some historical cars on the mainlines but I don't think we'll see any special fares.
Yeah, how about R-1s on the "A" again? No, I mean, like to replace those R-40 somethings they use now. Sure make the commute more interesting...
If there were enough R-1/9s in running condition, that would be great. I can hear those bull and pinion gears bellowing away along CPW right now. It's a crying shame more of the R-10s weren't saved. I know one thing: if there is anything planned, I will be in the city during that week, and will definitely be on hand. My theme for Oct. 27 would have to change to "Ride the Lo-Vs", if they do in fact come out on the shuttle.
I always thought an equipment parade up the Culver Line in Brooklyn on the nearest weekend to the 100th anniversary would be a neat thing to do ....
--Mark
I think there is a general problem with putting older equipment out into general service: vandalism. Some of our inner-city youths may not appreciate older subway equipment the way railfans would. Some of these cars were designed in a time before destroying public property became a pastime. Some of the cars have open fans (asking for trouble) and easily ripped wicker seats.
[ I think there is a general problem with putting older equipment out
into general service: vandalism. Some of our inner-city youths may not
appreciate older subway equipment the way railfans would. ]
Unfortunately, it is often the railfans themselves which can be the cause of the most vandalism. Put a set of cars out in the open without tight supervision, and you're likely to see them return to the yard without numberplates, builder's plates, whistles, or just about anything else that can be removed and carried away.
I don't know if your common vandal is more or less inclined to vandalize a 75 year old Lo-V as opposed to everyday rolling stock.
{I don't know if your common vandal is more or less inclined to vandalize a 75 year old Lo-V as opposed to everyday rolling stock.}
True, but vandalism would be a more serious problem on an older subway car, which requires a lot of maintanence to begin with, and is probably irreplacable. If a vandal destroys a seat on an R62, then who cares? There are hundreds of them.
The taxpayers and the fare-paying public, who ultimately foot the bill, care a great deal! Steve K is right, though - a few irresponsible railfans are likely to do more damage than vandals would. It is a sad indictment of the railfan community, but there have been enough bad apples in the barrel over the years for many railroads to view us as enemies, not friends.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
An easy solution would be to have a very visible employee or volunteer aboard the car. Certainly doable if they use the Low-Vs, which are not TA property.
-Hank
So who does own those Low-V's?
The Railway Preservation Corporation, a not-for-profit organization devoted to the education, restoration and maintenance of these cars as well as some of the R1/9s and the AB Standards at Coney Island. They meet regularly Tuesday nights for restoration work.
--Mark
Your point is certainly valid. Hank has already responded with one solution - to have a visible NYC Transit employee on-board the train. A second idea is to have no one board the equipmnt but run it as a slow speed on the center track of the Culver line, where railfans can line the stations and take photographs. Issue a GO that replaces F train service between Church Ave and Stillwell Ave with shuttle buses on a Sunday, so the crush of railfans doesn't cause trouble with the road trains.
Closing the Culver Line for the parade isn't so far fetched as it may seem - remember that the Verrazano Bridge is completely closed to traffic on the day of the NYC Marathon. And the FDR Drive and Brooklyn Bridge were closed for the Bridge's 100th birthday. Since the 100th anniversary of anything only comes ONCE if at ALL, this would rate right up there with thoese other events.
(Of course, the 100th birthday of the Manhattan Bridge would probably go unnnoticed since parts of it have been closed for so long :)
--Mark
Triplex equipment cannot run on any IRT lines, especially the older GS shttle. It's more likely that an IRT-capable train, like the Low-V's that were used back in 1994, will be in service.
I had thought that the last I heard there were no Low-V's that could be made serviceable in time for the anniversary.
Where would they get the Low-V's from? The Transit Museum train, or are there others that could be used?
They have a train of Low-V's they use every year for fan trips. (Cars 5290/5292/5443/5483.) Something may have happened to it since last September (the last scheduled fan trip *that I know of*), but I haven't heard anything until now, so, who's been feeding you this misinformation?
Wherever they got the ones from in 1994. I think there are 3 working Low-V's that come from the New Lots yard and are used for fantrips.
You guys are going to love this one. I was taking out the trash on Saturday morning when my new neighbor across the way comes up to me and introduces himself. He's an accountant from someplace in Alabama and just got a job up here in the city. I laughed so hard I nearly wet myself when I found out that he thought he was going to be able to drive into Manhattan and find a parking space easily, not to mention affordably. I explained to him that the LIRR platform for Floral Park was less than two blocks away, and that there wouldn't be any need to change trains. It's a straight shot into Penn Station and since I think he told me he works someplace in midtown, it lets him out practically at his office. The simplicity of all of this must have been too much for him, because I stood there over half an hour trying to lay it all out so my five year old grandson could understand it if he had to. I could understand him being confused if he had to change a train someplace, but if he's really as dense as he came across to me as being; I really feel sorry for the company that hired him. Talk to you guys later. Salvo.
[I was taking out the trash on Saturday morning when my new neighbor across the way comes up to me and introduces himself. He's an accountant from someplace in Alabama and just got a job up here
in the city. I laughed so hard I nearly wet myself when I found out that he thought he was going to be able to drive into Manhattan and find a parking space easily, not to mention affordably. I explained to him that the LIRR platform for Floral Park was less than two blocks away, and that there wouldn't be any need to change trains. It's a straight shot into Penn Station and since I think he told me he works someplace in midtown, it lets him out practically at his office. The simplicity of all of this must have been too much for him, because I stood there over half an hour trying to lay it all out so my five
year old grandson could understand it if he had to.]
Your neighbor's confusion does not surprise me. Assuming he's under 45 or 50 years of age, from a middle-class background, and has lived in Alabama all his life, he probably has little or no experience with using transit. He's probably never been on a bus except for school buses and airport rental car shuttles, or on a train except for the Disney World monorail. The idea of getting on an LIRR train probably is totally bewildering to him - and let's not even think about the subway. Hopefully, he'll soon learn his way around transit.
I spoke with him last night when he came home from work. He said it was scary until he got to Penn Station and got his bearings about where he was at. I told him to stay away from the subway until he absolutely had to use it, or until he felt adventurous enough to learn. I think he's going to be fine. When I was working in Manhattan back in the seventies and eighties, I would have killed for a commute as simple as his. Later, Salvo.
I'm glad to hear that your neighbor managed to navigate the LIRR and survive :-) Of course, if he had tried driving into Manhattan, and paying for parking, he undoubtedly would have hightailed it back to Alabama, new job or not!
Something like this tells a lot about people with the office-park mentality, who are used to endless fields of asphalt around a single story office complex. Manhattan (The Chicago Loop, Downtown Boston or Center City Philly) is a different world A place where people will put out what would be a year's salary for most of us just to have THEIR parking space, and then sit in gridlock for hours coming and going. But as much as we gripe about the LIRR or NYCT and other systems on this site, they make these cities work - without them they would STRANGLE!
This AM the bi-level pulled into Jamaica with FL-9 300 (Kevin Blum) in
front and FL-9 301 (Mike O'Connor) nowhere to be found. The train
pulled into Track 4 and terminated. I was on the train from Far Rock
which had a slow approach into Jamaica and wound up about 10 minutes
late because of missing Mike. Another morning on the LIRR...
Kevin Blum? Mike O'Connor?
[ Kevin Blum? Mike O'Connor? ]
They are names given to locomotives on the LIRR. In particular, those names are applied to two of the three FL9AC dual mode locomotives still being used for port-jeffercon -> Penn Sta through service.
But who were Kevin Blum and Mike O'Connor?
A better question is whatever happened to Jason R. DeCeasere? He seems to have vanished..
-Hank
Whenever I go through the Lexingotn Avenue Station on the E and F during the PM Rush Hour there is a lady with a megaphone leaning against the rail next to the Queens-bound tracks and men at every door location with flashlights holding them up in the direction of the conductor. When did the MTA start employing people to use the megaphone in the station (and at the such a high volume! I can hear every word clearly from INSIDE the R-32 E trains) and when the flashlight is on, what does that mean? That the conductor can close the doors or has to keep them open?
On Friday afternoon, there was a Platform Conductor on the uptown side of the Fulton Street IRT station with a battery-powered mic/amplifier. Between trains, he announced: "Passengers are reminded to stand back from the platform for their own safety." When a train was approaching, he announced the route number and destination. [
Is this some way of helping blind people?]
No, although it is a good secondary result. The people with the megaphones and portable mics are trying to get you to LISTEN. In general, it doesn't seem to work - apparantly most NYers are selectively deaf and cannot hear anything told to them in the subways, no matter where they stand in relation to the person talking.
Back in April, I spent two days at 51/Lex on the N.B. 6 platform. Standing in the doorway, waving the flashlight up and down, telling people to stand back from the closing doors, it was amazing how many people I hit in the head as they ran under my swinging arm.
There are some at 42-GC also..........
They are sent to any point on the subway that is crowded for any reason. They had a lady with a megaphone at 77th Street on the IRT, normally a not very crowded station, on the day of the Puerto Rican Parade (she wasn't doing much to ease the crowd except for opening the service exit. The 6 train I was on was packed and some guy forced the door open at 68th (I think) when his shirt got stuck in the door and didn't get out of the doorway at 77th until he was yelled at for a few seconds.
The extra platform conductors and flashlight use at Lexington Ave & 53rd ST has been there for a quite a while. When the doors are open, the platform conductor at the head of the train moves his flashlight side to side to tell the train conductor to keep the doors open. When the platform conductor sees that the train has just about loaded its passengers, he moves the flashlight up and down to tell the train conductor to close the doors. It's easier for the train conductor to see the flashlight than judge the situation for himself because of the passenger congestion in that station, especially at the front of the downtown trains during the evening rush. It also reduced dwell time.
--Mark
This morning, while on my regular trip in on LIRR #509, I saw a consist of bilevels and two 5xx series DM30AC's. It was 508, 8 cars, and then 506. The train was heading eastbound and was just east of Hall, and I was heading westbound.
Anyone know if this was an in-service train? I'm guessing it was, because it was rather close to rush hour for testing..
In an earlier thread with the same title, we talked about the possibility of a train being stuck in an inaccessible location (i.e. under a River) when traction power was unavailable.
I thought that the most likely option would be to have a couple of diesels go down there and fetch the train.. Someone seemed to reply that that was unlikely. How else would you get the people out of the tunnel, though?
It's unlikely because of the logistics. The diesels would likely have to leap over stalled trains to get to the one trapped in a tunnel.
[ It's unlikely because of the logistics. The diesels would likely have
to leap over stalled trains to get to the one trapped in a tunnel. ]
Don't most of the lines have crossovers relatively close to the tunnels? Of course, there would be stalled trains on both tracks, though..
It's interesting that LIRR/AMT keeps the harold protect on hand for east river tube contingencies, but NYCT doesn't seem to have a good plan for loss of power..
(For those not familiar, the harold protect is a set of switcher locomotives complete with crew, kept near harold tower, very close to the queens side of the LIRR/AMT east river tubes. During rush hours, they are always ready to go, with a waiting crew, to rescue a stalled train.)
Yes but the LIRR has one tunnel to protect where-as the TA has XX. Would you propose parking a diesel at one end of each just in case.
Could the crossovers be operated without power?
if all else fails and danger to life existed evucation and walk to emergency exits from under river and all tunnels. If a rescue train of passnger equipment couldn't be dispatched due to power off and conditions warranted immediate evac hell yes people would have to walk.. if all else fails
In a scenario where power were extinguished and say smoke or fire existed evacuation would be in the opposite of the incident even if away from exit or station.
if I may add to my own message yes the Gucci shoes and handbag may be soiled but HEY life will continue.... and yes the Bloomingdales or Macy's parcels will have to stay with the train since they'd be a bitch to get up those narrow dirty emergency exits...
[ if I may add to my own message yes the Gucci shoes and handbag may be
soiled but HEY life will continue.... and yes the Bloomingdales or
Macy's parcels will have to stay with the train since they'd be a
bitch to get up those narrow dirty emergency exits... ]
Speaking of narrow and dirty emergency exits, there was a little piece on (I think) NBC (dateline?) called "descent of a woman", about a recovering addict who used to live in a subway emergency exit stairway. Anyone else see this?
I think the exit in question was in soho on the F line..
Wonder how long it would take to walk from the middle of the 7 train (Steinway) tunnel, or the N train tunnels under the East River (I'm talking both here).
Anybody have a guess on how long it would take to walk from the middle of each East River tunnel? I think Montague street is the longest one.
Last week's heat wave caused Washington Heights to loose power.
The A train terminated at 145th Street or 168th Street. Why did they
reroute the B from Coney Island via the Montague Street Tunnel and
Broadway Express to 57th Street-7th Avenue on the N and R lines?
Could they have extended the rerouted B to Queensborough Plaza or
Ditmars Blvd on the N Line? I found out that in 1961, on Saturdays,
there were 3 services running to/from Astoria: Q, QB and T. Why don't
they just extend the B to Bedford Park Blvd like during the rush
hours and run some D trains express in the peak direction?
James Li
I suspect you are wrong about 1961. If memory serves me, the Q only ran at the same time as the QT. Once the QT switched to become the QB, the Q no longer ran. Thus, only 2 services ran to Astoria at any one time, not 3.
I have the 1961 map at home, and it showed that on Saturdays 6am to
7apm, there were 3 services to/from Astoria. The Brighton Express Q,
which ran from Astoria to Coney Island, making local stops on Broad-
way in Manhattan, then switching over to the Manhattan Bridge after
Prince Street. It ran Express from Prospect Park to Brighton Beach.
The Brighton Local QB via Manhattan Bridge, which ran from Astoria
to Coney Island, making local stops in Manhattan, switching to the
Manhattan Bridge after Prince Street, then ran local on the Brighton
Line all the way to Coney Island. There was also the West End Express
T via Manhattan Bridge. It ran from Astoria to Coney Island, making
express stops in Manhattan and Brooklyn, but stopped at DeKalb Avenue.
James Li
How did the Broadway Line services operated in 1948? Did the
West End and Sea Beach Expresses skip DeKalb Avenue during the rush
hours? When did the Brighton Express operate and when did the Brigh-
ton Local terminate at 57th Street-7th Avenue and Queensborough Plaza?
James S. Li
recently, on Transit Transit news on Channel 25, I saw the
project on the Williamsburg Bridge. Why did they demolish the entire
elevated structure over the bridge to rebuild it? It will take a very
long time to rebuild like that. Is the Marcy Avenue station like a
horseshoe shaped at the time of the reconstruction?
James S. Li
I can comment on Marcy Avenue:
The island platform is temporary and is used to facillitate unloading. A temporary booth has also been set up on the Manhattan end of the Manhattan bound platform. The island platform connects to the Manhattan Bound Platform at the manhattan side of the island platform which will be removed when repairs are finished.
before anyone asks: Essex Street has a walkway from the center track over the usual Williamsburg bound track to the trolley terminal which is temporarily reopen with a temporary booth and walkway to the sahuttle bus. this too will be removed when the work is concluded.
It seems to me this would be the time to take photographs of the old trolley terminal at Essex Street and post on the this site.
I second that notion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What's all this I hear about lead contamination in regards to the construction going on. One of you guys out there is bound to know. Thanks. Salvo.
Sorry Dave. There's nothing there except piles of dust and some rusting track gear. I took a look when I had an M job with a put-in at the Canal St. backtrack in the spring.
Actually, that is just an old entrance to the subway station. There is no access to the trolley terminal. In fact, you can see where the stairways were covered over on the platform and in the fare control area for the tunnel under the B'klyn-bound track. The trolley terminal used to encompass the entire area, and the entrance to the terminal can be seen closer to the south/west end of the station.
-Hank
The steel work on the bridge was removed because is was rusting from lack of maintenance and was no longer structurally sound. The work is ahwad of schedule because of good planning by the contractor.
I think the reason that the work is ahead of schedule has more to do with that big fat bonus they will get finishing ahead of schedule.
They romved EVERYTHING. Then entire track suport structure from Essex St. to Marcy Ave. They pre-poured new supports and had all the structural support parts ready to go before they shut down the bridge. The then proceeded to demolish the structure, and install the new steelwork atop the concrete pillars. On the bridge, they removed all the steelwork above the main crossbeams (which run crossways from cable to cable) and put in new. They had been working on the project 24/7 until recently, when they discovered that they were way ahead of schedule. The bridge will reoppen on-time, or early.
-Hank
I heard they are three weeks behind because of a problem with one of the new beams.
Yesterday, the E and F were rerouted due to track work in the
53rd Street Tunnel, but why did they shorten the R to a Shuttle from
36th Street to 95th Street in Brooklyn, when the E was rerouted via
the R line to Whitehall Street? Why was the northbound F train normal?
What trains made local stops at 23rd Street and 14th Street on 6th
Avenue in Manhattan?
James S. Li
You proabably had to take the express to W4 St and transfer to the uptown local.
The E basically replaced the R from Continental ave to Whitehall. The Broadway line probably couldn't handle three different services.All passengers had to do was to transfer to the N for service to Brooklyn and get the R at 59st for service to 95st
Also to reduce congestion in Queens.
The question is, why have the E on Broadway at all? just send the R all the way through. They're making it more complicated and inconvenient this way.
What about E line passengers between Jamaica center and Jamaica Van Wyck?
Just extend the R. That's more simple than what they're doing.
The R stops running in Queens a little past midnight.
I think what he is trying to say is why dont they send the R via its normal route and have the E run as a shuttle? It could run as a shuttle from Union Tpke to Jamaica Ctr? This would probably lead to other headches in Manhattan........
You could run the R out to Jamacia Center. I think the E still runs on Bway is so you can get express service in Queens and so people aren't totaly confused east of 71 Ave. It seems to make plenty of sense to me.
But isn't it all local service in Queens during this reroute?
All E and F trains operated local in Queens to/from their Jamaica
Terminals during this track work. The E ran on the R line from Queens
Plaza to Whitehall Street, and the F ran on the G line between Queens
Plaza and Bergen Street in the southbound direction.
James Li
There was another GO affecting service in the Montague St. tubes, wasn't there?
-Hank
Can anyone tell me the condition of the Gibbs Hi-V car at the Seashore Trolley Museum? What ever happened to the restoration project to remove the center doors. This car should be displayed in New York City for the 100th Anniversary.
Does this car operate?
3352 had its center doors removed many years ago (more than 12, I know, since that's when I first set eyes on the car!). I have operated it over our main line about a dozen times, though it has not gone more than a few hundred yards in about four years. There is a bad leak in one of the brake stands, so moving it under power for anything more than a "trolley parade" is not good.
The outside is in pretty decent shape, but the inside is not. There are holes in the floor, and seats and other items are piled up throughout.
I agree it would be interesting to talk about having it in NYC for the 100th. Do you think the NYCTA would be willing to pay for moving it (plus insurance, restoration as required, etc.)?
Well, they have car "G" on loan, under similar arrangements. Of course, it all depends on what you have in mind when you say "restoration as required".
The cost of a professional restoration on a car like that would probably be close to a million bucks.
Not to mention the removal of the fibrous white substance liberally employed in it's construction.
>Not to mention the removal of the fibrous white substance liberally
>employed in it's construction.
Oh, you mean the same white fiber stuff that's in the ceilings of the M-1s supposedly?
[ Oh, you mean the same white fiber stuff that's in the ceilings of the
M-1s supposedly? ]
Really? Is that reliable information, or just a rumour? I'm surprised that they'd use that in the 70's, and what is in the roof that would need asbestos?
Some engineer on the LIRR claimed it. Then again, I don't see where you'd need it up there either. I don't think it's true, though it's possible...
And why the proposed D-Type / Gate Car Nostalgia Trip was canned last year ....
--Mark
< I agree it would be interesting to talk about having it in NYC for the 100th. Do you think the NYCTA would be willing to pay for moving it (plus insurance, restoration as required, etc.)? >
Knowing NYC politics, I think it depends entirely on who is Mayor and how the economy is. If times are prosperous and the Mayor is like Jimmy Walker, it should be easy. If the City's in a new crunch and the Mayor is like LaGuardia, fugeddaboutit!
I'd be very happy to see a 3 car train of Hi-Voltage cars
(let's see if you can name them :) paraded through the IRT
on Oct 27 2004. That's only a few years from now and all of
the cars require a lot of time and money to be presentable
and suitable for that kind of service.
[ I'd be very happy to see a 3 car train of Hi-Voltage cars
(let's see if you can name them :) ]
Let's see -- I dunno what you have in mind, but I think it would be nice to see a Gibbs car, a Deck Roof, and a particular private car..
Right. If this kind of thing is to happen, then it's time for the representatives of Seashore and Shore Line to talk to NYCT now!
I gotta tell you, I don't know if NYCT would be interested in 3 High Voltage Cars. That's a lot of $$$ for restoration.
THE PRIVATE SUBWAY CAR by itself - Well that's a different story....
Once Car G comes home, then the private subway car can take G's spot at the NYTM.
It's a nice fantasy to have the Hi-Vs rolling down the line. If that were possible - I would expect that no one, but Museum Staff members would be allowed in the private car as a means for protecting her.
I wonder what the possibility would be like if we could have two Hi-Vs (3352 and 3662) rolling down the line with two Lo-Vs? Exactly what would have to be done to make it plausible? Can you isolate the Hi-Vs/Lo-Vs from each other to make operations possible?
Just to add to something that I said, I wanted to know if a combined Hi-V/Lo-V fantrip could be run......
Stef,
Haven't you already seen a train made up from a combination of Hi-V and Lo-V cars? I'm pretty sure you've been around when we've done it, although you weren't around for "New York In June" this year.
Anyways, the braking systems on the two types of cars are roughly compatible. A 4 car Hi-Hi-Lo-Lo train would be possible, with the Hi-V's MU'ed and the Lo-V's Mu'ed, and fully operational trainline braking. Of course, seeing this happening is only slightly more likely than seeing a train of R68's on the 2nd avenue subway.
For that matter, for what it would cost to get the two Hi-V cars down to NYCT property and restored properly for a "celebration", just a little more could build a device to transition from Hi-V to Lo-V trainline controls, so you could MU the whole train, electric brakes and all.
I know it's been done, but I've never seen it. Just because you run them down a mile and a half Museum Line doesn't mean that it's necessarily feasible for the NYC subway system. I never considered a transition device for Lo-V/Hi-V operation. If that were the case, I'd say to Jeff H. to study it's feasibility and try it on the Museum Line only if there were enough juice to squeeze out of the overhead.
Anyway, isn't the 3662 and 5466 lashup done with one car pulling the other dead in each direction? Fully MU'ed? I think not, with the exception of trainline brakes. I have seen the Lo-V/R9 lashup, and it's pretty much the same way. Go to Short Beach and pull the R9's pole down, and put up the Lo-V's pole and off they go in the opposite direction with only train brakes in operation.
It's just a curious thing, since unfortunately we don't seem to have any other surviving Hi-Vs out there (forget the Private Subway Car). A two car Hi-V train wouldn't cut it for the railfans, because chances are we'd be packed in like sardines in a can!!!!!
What I had in mind was that the cars could be isolated from each other that two cars would pull in each direction at any given time since they are electrically incompatible.
Then again, putting a certain private subway car at the front of a consist would certainly turn heads, wouldn't it?
-Stef
[ Just because you run
them down a mile and a half Museum Line doesn't mean that it's
necessarily feasible for the NYC subway system. ]
The braking systems don't care if the cars are going down the branford mainline or lexington avenue. The fact is that they do work together, with performance comparable to a set of two Lo-V's or two Hi-V's, minus the electric brake. Service braking and Emergency both work.
[ I never considered a
transition device for Lo-V/Hi-V operation. If that were the case, I'd say to Jeff H. to study it's feasibility and try it on the Museum Line
only if there were enough juice to squeeze out of the overhead. ]
Two problems here. First, we would need to define "feasability". It _can_ be done, just as almost anything can be done, but the question is one of cost (combination of money and time). It's not quite as simple as a set of relays that would convert hi-voltage signals to low-voltage ones, because the controllers don't work the same way. Of course, since the whole idea of a mixed-voltage train is not historically accurate, you could just put a low-voltage PC control system under the hi-voltage cars, and then MU operation is easy.
When we make the Hi-V/Lo-V train at Branford, we generally do it as you stated, "Air and Iron", having the lead car pull in each direction. A simple addition that would be nice to add to that scenario would be a high-voltage jumper for lights and fans. If one did something like this in third-rail territory, you would have power to all the cars, though.
[ What I had in mind was that the cars could be isolated from each other
that two cars would pull in each direction at any given time since
they are electrically incompatible. ]
Right -- that's what I thought you meant. When doing so, though, you'd want to have trainline braking, which would be possible because the systems are compatible.
Of course, I wouldn't hold my breath to see any of this happen, because it would cost a fortune.
The High V's, or at least the one I saw at Seashore, also don't have automatic acelleration like the Low V's and everything else does. One has to notch the controller manually. BTW - it's a way cool looking controller, almost as cool as the MP-54 ones were. Anyway, as far as electric braking features - didn't they all use pretty much the same AMUE stuff until SMEE came around?
Anyway, I'd love to see that Hi V run again....
[ The High V's, or at least the one I saw at Seashore, also don't have
automatic acelleration like the Low V's and everything else does. One
has to notch the controller manually. BTW - it's a way cool looking
controller, almost as cool as the MP-54 ones were. Anyway, as far as electric braking features - didn't they all use pretty much the same
AMUE stuff until SMEE came around? ]
Yup, the Hi-V's have to be notched up manually. The acceleration rate is controlled by a "clockworks" mechanism in the master controller, which maintains the maximum notch-up speed. If you crank the handle faster, you just end up putting tension on a spring until the cam catches up. In a "linear" analogy, imagine pulling a block across a plane by a spring, where the block is artificially limited in speed. If you pull the block faster, you just stretch the spring, until the block catches up to you.
The brakes on the Hi-V are AMRE. They are similar to AMUE, and compatible from air controls. The AMRE system on the Hi-v's use high-voltage controls, and therefore is not directly compatible with AMUE.
Let's see, a few scattered academic thoughts on mixing HiV and LoV.
Running a 4 or 5 car train of AMUE/AMRE on air only, no electric
brake, not fun. The UE universal valve and the R triple valve
have different quick-acting characteristics, and the ME-21 valve
used on the Hi-V does not have an equalizing portion. You'd have
to be a train air grandmaster to handle that train smoothly, not
to mention not going too fast because service braking will be very
long. Of course emergency will work fine.....
The easiest MU fix is to leave the Hi-V cars as unpowered control
trailers, and use their trainlines at low-voltage, much like we
used to do with "G" and 1227 at Branford.
A full-blow Hi-Lo transition box could be constructed with a bunch
of relays. You'd have to partition the train into a high voltage
and a low voltage half. Wire it so first point on the Hi-V causes
switching on the Lo-V side, second point and higher gets you series,
and transition gets you multiple. Then you hope that the accel
rates match up well enough that you don't get a lot of bucking.
Going the other way is a lot worse because the Hi-V's accelerating
relay in the the controller stand. You could run a wire back
into the Lo-V's PC-10 group and pick up the switched side of the
accel relay and use that to run up the Hi-V sequence. Ouch.
Complicated. I suppose I could build one for kicks.
Trainlining AMRE and AMUE electrically is similar, but not nearly
as complicated.
What a flurry of responses!!! Thanks for clearing that up Jeff. Sounds like the Hi-Vs are better left as unpowered control trailers....
Mr. Train Conrol, if you know Bill Gates, see if he's willing to contribute to the Hi-V/Mineola Fund, as it's time to represent history with the very best (being that NYCT's birthday is right around the corner!).
Steve K, thank you for your explanation. Anything's possible, I suppose if certain people are willing to make things happen. Yet the idea intrigues me, what if a Hi-V could run on the legendary IRT?
-Stef
So *thats* what that huge spring in there does!!! So - basically, one can put the controller in full parallel without blowing anything up?
Yeah, but since the current limit relay is in the controller,
if you have a "dead motor" at the head end, the automatic
acceleration won't work.
It's amazing since Boston had 'daisy-chain' automatic accelleration from 1901 and Chicago had Sprague's version in the 1890s, why the IRT went with this system. Any thoughts?
BTW Phil Morse is the person at Seashore who has a knack for making things like this happen! Jim Tebbetts - sponsor of the Gibbs Car - would also have to be involved.
I've never heard the term "daisy-chain automatic acceleration"
please explain what that was and what Boston cars it was used on.
Sprague's 1897 system was automatic accel and low-voltage.
I suspect, but can not document historically, that GE's
introduction of Type M as a high-voltage, manual system was
a market counter-reaction to finicky problems with the
Sprague system. In New York, the BRT went with Sprague's system
and then the Westinghouse clone of it (with air, of course)
and never used Hi-V style controls. The IRT probably picked
GE Type M because that was what they started using on the Manhattan
Division (the els) in 1901.
The High V's, or at least the one I saw at Seashore, also don't have automatic acelleration like the Low V's and everything else does. One has to notch the controller manually. BTW - it's a way cool looking controller, almost as cool as the MP-54 ones were. Anyway, as far as electric braking features - didn't they all use pretty much the same AMUE stuff until SMEE came around?
Anyway, I'd love to see that Hi V run again....
They use GE's "M" control, right?
Maybe Bill Gates with his $90 billion dollars would donate enough money to restore the Gibbs Hi-V and Mineola Car (private subway car you speak of)?
Maybe the Webmaster, David Pirmann, can master a website to get Bill Gate's attention and get some of his money. I'm sure he can donate a couple of million bucks. It would be tax deductible and we could allow him to operate the cars on the inauguration ride. Maybe Bill is a train buff.
[ Maybe Bill Gates with his $90 billion dollars would donate enough
money to restore the Gibbs Hi-V and Mineola Car (private subway car
you speak of)? ]
Shudder. I can just see it now. The mineola sprinting up the lex. I'm standing on the platform at Astor place, as it approaches. Beautifully restored. It passed by. Then, on the back, I see this big "Designed for Microsoft Windows" sticker with the four pastel-color logo plastered across the back of the car.
I won't even go into the repercussions of the blue screen of death.
Wait a second.........microslop operating system and
high-voltage. This won't end well.
Gates did charter a private train last year though for his vacation ... but that was so he could get away from everyone except his lackeys, not so he could party with a city full:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess the door (window?) closing sound would also have to be changed to that annoying intel inside tune they play for on *every* computer ad on tv/radio!
Hey, Apple is doing better this year - maybe Jobs likes trains? Ok, granted, iHi Vs in blueberry, orange, cherry, grape, and whatever isn't much better.
Oh yeah, but then, everytime the t/o took power, the roll sign would have to display a smiling subway car.
(For the non Mac crowd - everytime you boot a Mac, it displays a smiling computer on the screen for a few secs once it's found the system software. If it can't find the OS, it displays a disk with a ? mark on it. If something is REALLY wrong, it disp;ays a sad mac on a black screen, and plays the chimes of death)
New in the Around the World Section:
Bob Wright has done a series of pages on SEPTA's Regional rail. For those lines not covered, Peggy will be doing those.(R7 Trenton, R3 West Trenton and the two Chestnut Hill services.) Also in the works:BART (Sent by a contributor- Dave will have this up soon) and a station by station for the Newark Subway to be done by Peggy.
In Atlanta, Automatic Train Operation reins supreme in my book. The trains operate smoothly and the Flare-Out at the final stop is great. Flare-Out is when the brakes get released below 3 mph and then get reapplied to eliminate the sudden jerk at the final stop. When the trains are operated in MCS, Manual Cab Signal, mode then the Train Operator controls the train with cab signaling with over speed protection enforced. The ride is very jerky and the final stop in the platform is always a full service brake application performed by the deadman feature.
I wonder if you New York Subway railfans would enjoy this type of MCS ride on your system?
BTW, for those who are interested, I design the signal and train control systems that prevent train operators from getting into accidents. There is no contest between Operations Personnel and Engineers in this business.
I invite you to visit Atlanta and ride MARTA on a rainy day.
One factor complicating automatic control in NYC is the interconnection of lines- east side west side; sixth avenue, 8th avenue; BMT, IND, IRT. For instance: You have a train on the 7 Cornoa Flushing Line- it share trackas with the BMT at Queensboro Plaza. Therefore in theory the computer COULD send a BMT car down the IRT and cause injury. The computer COULD send an eastside train down the West side. The very feature that makes NYC unique--the great redudancy in capacity alternatives complicates ATC. We are not standing still-- NYCT does plan on buying new cars, etc to allow ATC but it takes time and money. MARTA is a new system with separate North South and East West Lines with only one connection between the two . NYCT's new rail control center now going up on West 53rd in Manhattan is being designed to allow ATC.The new R143 cars will have ATC capability when the signals are installed on the L line. Patience, my friend! a 1904 system takes time to update--especially with the deferred maintenance when NYC almost went broke. I was in Atlanta visiting when the East West line was in the test stage-- a train (one train) ran from Avondale to Georgia State (and the feeder bus lines with free bus transfer was not yet in place and you asked the bus driver for a rail transfer or from rail to bus you got a transfer by pressing ther button on the turnstile when you enter unless you paid with a Trans Card.) I was also there in the fall when the entire line was open along with the North line to Brookhaven. I saw in the paper where a train operator was running behind schedule and MARTA had to run buses to move the passengers-- the computer shut down when the operator requested wrong rail to facillitate turn around. MARTA is a nice system- I agree and have ridden the system many times and will continue to do so But I can not directly compare a stretch limo to a VW Beetle or a 1999 model to a model T.
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of NYCT, MTA , or MARTA
I've dealt with Engineers,including some signal types. As a group,I find that their faith in technology tends to isolate them from practicality.
While the time has certainly come for improvement over the wayside signal/tripper system,I question the need for full ATO on U.S. transit systems.For a number of reasons,I doubt that any property plans to run crewless trains in our lifetime.(See the thread on stuck trains.)
Full automation tends to instill a false sense of security in those humans still involved;on those rare occasions when it does fail,personnel often react with disbelief,resulting in an increase in reaction time.IIRC,Washington Metro was cited for over reliance on the ATO system in a 1996 incident that resulted in collision and the death of a Train Operator.
You yourself remarked on the poor train handling skills of MARTA operators. IMHO,it's due to lack of opportunity to develop and maintain these skills in the manual mode.
In view of the above,would not an interactive computer supervised system such as TVM-430 (used on the Chunnel and TGV)be more appropriate?
even in PATCO operation according to a book i've been reading though ATO is the norm, operators make one trip manually to maintain operating skills. IN the event that an ATO system experiences a lengthy breakdown how safe would the system be if the operators never operated? very unsafe in my opinion. I'm wondering what delusion people have that total automation will make there ride even better/faster/cheaper? Cost efficient maybe in say 30/40/50 years not in the next say 5-10 years..
say in New York, do you think a train with no crew what so ever operates wth the characters that ride trains today do you think this puppy wil ever get off the ground? highly unlikely...
picture this scene on a train with no operating crew on board at a station stop and doors open people holding doors too and a nice polite message"Please do not hold the doors! release the doors so the train is not delayed and inconvenience your fellow riders"
people still holding doors and the message just plays on and a malfunction occurs so that the train cannot close its doors. how safe would it be to override from a remote location to get that train moving again....even with all the bells and whistles of all the new fangled stuff to arrive you still need a living breathing employee on board to operate a train.
On PATCO, where do the commands for ATO originate? In boxes on the
tracks, in the train's computer (ie, 5th stop to 6th stop, accel
for 10 secs or until non-green signal) or elsewhere?
The speed commands on PATCO are transmitted to the train via the running rails. They come from those boxes you refer to and are called impedance bonds. Actually, they are developed by code transmitters and follower relays in the wayside equipment rooms and houses.
If trains cannot be operated smoothly by a motorman or train operator then ATO operation is appropriate with a train operator. Driveless train are in service in other places around the world like Paris.
I make it my business to operate in a safe and comfortable fashion. I could care less about operation in Paris Istabul London or elsewhere. As for other US cities San Franciso's BART at its introduction has had its problems at the start and I believe Washington DC on METRO had a fatality to a train operator. Not to mention SF MUNI had a major interuption to service when its ATO went online for its light rail customers. So New York City riders should also have to endure the same inconvenience.. history i'm sure would repeat itself in here..
If the trip arm breaks or the show beam not adjusted then the signal system on NYCT is worthless. Single break line circuits!!!!
And if the ATO misreads a speed command as in the BART Fremont flyer incident then that system,too,is worthless.
What does shoe beam adjustment have to do with signal operation???
Well, you can argue that things should be one way or another, or you can see if the answer is somewhere in the middle.
I think few people advocate crewless trains; it would be enormously difficult in NY and I cannot imagine it anytime in the next 50 years. However, ATO is commonly very smooth, and can also be more energy efficient, I believe. WMATA thinks it also saves brakes...
It seems like PATCO has a good approach. Keep the operators handy at operating trains. On the NY system, with its complexity, an additional level would be needed: Make control center people and tower operators, etc., practice operating the system without the computers calling the shots.
SF has a very busy trunk line and had a disaster trying to bring it all on line at once. This was complicated, actually, because the automatic portion of the system is not self contained - trains come into the system from non automated lines. This was all compounded by BAD management. NYCTA plans to bring in ATO on one almost isolated and not terribly busy line. I doubt they will be stupid enough to bring it on line while, for instance, the Williamsburgh bridge is closed.
WMATA's overreliance on their ATO cost an operator his life. Hopefully, this lesson will not be lost. But this does not mean that ATO is not safe. On paper, at least, it should have prevented many of the accidents that have occurred in NYCTA over the past few years.
WMATA seems more concerned about saving brake shoe pads it seems...
Both are replaceable. Besides, it seems to me that a number of operators have been killed over the years without any help from ATO. If ATO is unsafe because one operator was killed, doesn't that mean that no ATO is also unsafe because operators have been killed? It follows that the only safe subway is one with neither ATO nor operators.
OK! OK! It seems that most people are not informed on ATO. First of all it stands for Automatic Train Operation. It performs the functions of the train operators such as train acceleration, speed regulation and station stopping. Most of these functions are non-vital in nature. Here's the big one is called ATP. It stands for Automatic Train Protection and is 100% failsafe. It is the cab signal with overspeed protection system. It employes a Frequency Response Governor (FR Governor) using filters and check oscillators to compare the speed command to the actional train speed. If the train goes into overspeed then the Underspeed Relay drops (USR) causing a full service brake application if the train operator or ATO system does not put the train into full service braking within 3 to 5 seconds. Furthermore, systems like MARTA and others use a brake assurance system using a pendalum brake assurance unit (BAU) which checks for 1/2 the full service brake rate. If it does not detect at least that rate then the train goes in emergency braking after 3 to 5 seconds.
The block design is layed out based on 1/2 full service brake rate with maximum human and machine reaction time and runaway speed. On NYCT the brake distance is designed based on 135% braking distance. This is not as good as 1/2 full service rate. On WMATA and MARTA safe braking is tested for every track circuit and speed command with an actual train under the WORST CASE conditions. The train is calibrated for this with a special test set and accelerometers. Did you ever wonder why system like WMATA and MARTA, at the airport, have the track extended beyond the terminal station. It is put there for run off only in case a train blows the automatic station stop. The train will not get into an accident. NYCT does not do this.
With all this in mind, ATO operation is totally failsafe and better than an operator. WMATA doesn't use brake assurance.
I've been in the business of design of train control and signaling for 28 years and advice you to examine the system employed before a negative is picture is painted.
..."track extended beyond the terminal station.It is put there for runoff in case a train blows the automatic station stop.The train will not get into an accident."
Only by virtue of the fact that several hundred feet of extra track is provided for that possibility. It would appear that those designers don't have your unwavering faith :)
Look, you must understand the technical aspect of cab signaling. First of all, a speed command, in the case of MARTA being either 15 or 25mph, must be transmitted to the train during the final stop in the station. The train can be operated in either ATO or Manual Cab Signal (MCS) modes into the station. In order to grant this speed command, there must safe braking distance beyond the station in order for it work safely. There is no other way. Any system using an end of track configuration into the platform without cab signal is not as safe and a runoff into the bumper can occur. Even on NYCT were one block GT is used in the station platform then is not totally failsafe. An operator can rap the controller around once the GT is satisfied at the last signal and run into the bumper post. Cab Signal protects again this action.
As designs we have total faith in the design because we must have the safe braking distance. Doing anything else is reckless.
For anyone to say that a system in particular is 100% fail safe is reckless in itself. R-46s had self opening side doors and R-44 cars newly equipped with the Westcode master controllers did run in ATO operation. Thus we had a bulletin stating that we pull the conductor's emergency valve and apply ALL handbrakes because the valves were leaking main reservoir to the brake pipe and simultaniously the couplers were leaking the straight air to atmosphere. For Layton Gibson to perish because his train went into emergency and travel two blocks into an M train or for a number 1 train to proceed on green signals into the 103 street station with a revenue collector on the stand to me resembles a system that is nowhere near 100% fail safe.
I explained in great detail the methods used to insure failsafe design and safe braking distance in this thread. The Williamsburg Bridge accident has caused by lack of safe braking distance for a modern day train (R40) so to speak. The signal system on the bridge was placed into service around 1915 and was failsafe for the AB Standards with lower operating speeds and quick brakes. The new system being installed on the bridge right now has the extended control lines.
My comments are NOT RECKLESS as you indicated in this thread. The systems being installed today and in the past 20+ years are 100% failsafe. Examine the facts inaccordance with this thread. You must examine the true facts and read the NTSB reports on accidents to know the truths. Railfans have a tendency to jump to conclusions too often. By the way, no signal system can be designed to prevent an accident on icy track. However, the brake assurance system can dump emergency braking if the brake rate is not maintained. It's safer than your automobile with ABS.
I feel dismayed as being classified as a railfan. I am the first to endorse anti-railfan windows and would support Antibuff and Mr Hangstrapper for union reps. However my point is there is no such thing as 100% failsafe. Im sure the Washington Metro thought their's was until the collision that sent us L. Reiter who with Joe Hoffman now tells us that they are serious about safety. As long as the greedy MTA board members and the overbloated management force continue with their agendas, the NYCTA will never be close to a failsafe system. This system was built in the early 1900s and is moving into the 21 century still using wayside signals with trip cocks and sound powered phones. Yet there are still some out here who believe that the employees are solely responsible for all the disasters and say that mechanical problems don't exist. Some blame the unions and some the management but what the bean counters will do when your technology does fail is blame us 100% as the scapegoats we are made to be so on paper your new signal system will be 100% failsafe.
I am not sure that I agree with you on every point you've made. However, during a discussion about service once the 63rd St. connection is completed, one person from Operations-Planning made an all-too telling statement. Incredibly, she blamed the lack of cars for the new service on the fact that the Division of Car Equipment "does too much maintenance". Talk about a dim bulb.
At least she didn't complain about all the free publicity you are denying the TA. No crashes, no headlines.
Ill give you a couple of points for the MDBFs you have at Jamaica so here is an idea for the "dim bulb". Dedicate some R-44s for the service through the Queensbridge connection. Too much maintenance doesn't wash on that one. What the hell install feed valves so I can heal my carpal's tunnel syndrome without picking off my line.
As the expression goes, Anyone who thinks something is foolproof, underestimates the abilities of a fool. NYCT designs agains single point failure but the human element must also work properly for the system to work.
The last time an R-46 had self opening side doors - DCE took the charge although it was widely acknowledged that a female (probationary) C/R was conversing with a deadheading crew on a northbound F (July 4th a few years ago) between Bergen and Jay St. The operator stopped his train as he should. The C/R tried to clear the condition by 'beefing the doors'. For some reason her job was to be saved at all costs.
As for Mr. Gibson. Yes, the signal system had not been adjusted for the higer speeds and longer braking distances of the R type cars as compared to the ABs for which the signals were designed. However, it was never assumed that the R-type cars were designed to be operated by a sleeping operator either. Since human error has been suspected from the beginning, let's not lay this incident at the feet of the mechanical system alone.
It was once said that the cause of every disaster in public transportation, from the time of the Titanic, can be traced, at least in part, to human error.
Steve, pardon my ignorance, but what is "DCE" and "beefing the doors"?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As we say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid mistakes (due to not asking).
DCE is "The Division of Car Equipment", one of 6 operating divisions in the Department of Subways. The others are:
Rapid Transit Operations
Stations
Track
Infrastructure
Electrical (3rd Rail and Signals)
"Beefing Doors" is what conductors call it when they press the opening buttons and rapidly hit the closing buttons before the doors fully open. This technique is used to clear obstructions form doors during peak periods but it is frowned upon by DCE. First, it puts incredible mechanical stress on the door linkages and second, it will not clear a guard light with the current door obstruction system, under most conditions.
Thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
However, it was never assumed that the R-type cars were designed to be operated by a sleeping
operator either. Since human error has been suspected from the beginning, let's not lay this
incident at the feet of the mechanical system alone.
Not to quibble, but of course the signal system was designed
to handle sleeping operators! Otherwise why bother with all those
pesky train stops and trip cocks? A block signal system with
train stops must be designed so the worst-case distance between
the trip point and the unsafe condition (e.g. train ahead)
exceeds the worst-case stopping distance (maximum speed on wet
rail).....otherwise it's like protecting a 14ga wire with a 200 amp
fuse...yeah, you've got a protective device, but when the
fecal matter contacts the rotary ventillation system, what is it
really protecting?
Or another way of looking at it...in the railway biz, it usually
takes at least 2 things to make an accident
Jeff, Of course you are correct. The signal system should have protected regardless. Thanks for pointing out my ooops!
It's a cliche to say that nothing is 100% safe, but it bears repeating in this context. In fact I have trouble believing you said it.
With hindsight, one can always suggest an automatic scheme that would have prevented an accident. The trick is to design a scheme that considers EVERY POSSIBLE CONTINGENCY ****BEFOREHAND**** and prevents that circumstance from leading to an accident. I think it is fair to say that that is NOT possible.
I have posted before that I think ATO -With an Operator Watching Over It- is a very safe system, and safer than just using signals. But in the real world of NYC transit, it would be unwise to remove the human overseeing the operation of the controls.
Yes, one can put in automation to account for ice on the rails. But you say that AFTER ATO killed an operator because it could not account for ice on the rails. (He wanted to override the system, because he could see that it was not operating properly. He was denied permission to do so. Does anyone know if anyone at WMATA lost their job as a result of their error, which killed this guy?) There are an infinite number of situations a transit operation can encounter, they cannot all be anticipated ahead of time.
ATO is a great thing. Using it to remove operators from trains is stupid. For that reason, operators should also regularly have to operate trains, to keep skills good. If they screw up doing so, than ATO can slow/stop the train.
Laurence Reiter left his job at WMATA after that incident. Does anyone know where he is working now?
Guess which transit system is now under his mismanagement?
NYCTA right here in New York CITY... MTA the mother agency paid handsomely to get mr. REUTER , REITER whatever.. his closing costs on his Virginia home and some other nice costly perks. The man is taken cared of very well..
Yes and his posters are up with his slogan "We are serious about safety". Unfortunately one motorman out of each of his resumes are dead because of his dedication to efficient train service.
One might compare the ATO system being discussed in this thread with auto-pilot systems used in airplanes. Most of the time, the plane flies itself while the pilot "looks over its shoulder." Every now and then, I've been told, the pilot has to take over. I would not want to be on an airplane that was fully automated.
mind you over 4 million subway riders in New York City get to their destinations safely every day with a LIVING person at the controls. I can see where automation is going to come on the scene and you could put a welfare recipient at the controls of a train to work their benefits off...look at all the STUPORVISION that has mushroomed within the walls of MTA more chiefs than indians how is that saving anyone money? crew restrooms aren't cleaned on a regular basis much less stocked with toilet paper or soap. Station platforms are FILTHY and garbage cans over flowing in plenty of locations creating a safety hazard.
Sure ATO is attributable to one operators death, however can an automated transit system transport the volume that NYC has?
Washington DC San Franisco Atlanta Chicago combined don't some anywhere near NYCTA's daily capacity..
The tripper is mounted on the shoe beam.
In both cases - you have a less than perfect (I origionally said lousey here) system - a single point of failure renders it all useless. I know LIRR trains (and MN too) will drop to restricting if the wayside equipment dies, on account of loosing the impulse coding that's being sent. That at least will slow trains, however you can still go 15mph. Why the LIRR's system can't ENFORCE a stop and stay signal, is beyond me - though I guess it's a limitation of the equipment due to the technology of the time it was put in. It apparently CAN tell between stop and restricting though, as I've seen both '0' and '15' indicated on them. i believe they also indicate 60, 70, and 80, though it's always stuck on '80', even on the Port Wash line, which I believe has an MAS (near Manhasset to PW at least) of lower than 80. I couldn't imagine going around all those turns at 80.
Anyway - what are all the indications possiogble on the LIRR's system, and why don't they use this as a way of doing speed enforcement / semi automatic operation (make use of the ATO notch even maybe?)
Correct, I meant adjustment of the trip cock on the truck. Sorry.
Absolutely right,Anthony. Some engineering types I've spoken to think that ATO turns a transit system into a big Lionel set. Possible? Yes. Practical in the real world that you describe? NOT!
IMHO,they always leave the most unpredictable factor out of their equations:Passengers. They don't seem to believe that people in the ways that both you and I have seen......
You are wrong. People are taken into account. Paris has driverless train and it works great. I participated in the testing of the driveless people mover system called Airtrans at the Dallas/Fort Worth Airport in 1973 for General Railway Signal and it works great.
Westinghouse, Adtranz today, provides driveless trains for the people mover systems in the Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Denver Airports and it works great.
PATCO is the first system in the United States with Automatic Train Operation (ATO) with an operator and it works great.
If you enclose the stations with doors on the platform handshaked to the trains doors then the driveless is the way to go.
And don't forget the Grand Central-Times Square Shuttle on Track 4 from 1962 to 1964 which mysteriously went on fire in 1964. Was it the Union? We will never know.
Paris' "Meteor" and airport people movers were built with it in mind. As I stated, I have no argument regarding feasibility in such situations. I just don't think it's practical in properties that weren't designed for it. Prior to becoming PATCO,the line had been operated by PTC and SEPTA. Installing the modifications closed the line for over a month.
The Shuttle was a one train on one track deal,with no interlockings or other traffic to contend with. While it did prove that the basic technology was workable,it did nothing to prove that it would be practical under multi-track,heavy traffic conditions.
True,we'll never know the origins of the Shuttle fire. IMHO,it's unfair to point fingers without hard evidence. What we DO know is that when the fire broke out,the station was evacuated and several other sets of equipment were saved by imperfect,unreliable HUMANS.
My personal opinonn is that automation is fine for supervising / enforecing the rules- but leave humans in the loop to actually control the train.
Everyone mentions elevators here - but, an elevator does have track switches, they go MUCH slower, you have the luxury of hooking a cable up to the car (do they do THAT in the Empire State Building?) for control. Oh yeah, people aren't in the shaft, except for the occasional surfer. You have switches mountewd everywhere for positioning. The motor / brakes reaspond much faster. It never snows in an elevator shaft. And, I've seen quite a few elevators blow it too - stopping too high / low, opening the doors while moving, etc.
It's not a hard jump to a people mover, but it's a BIG jump to a rail application.
"IMHO,they always leave the most unpredictable factor out of their equations:Passengers. They don't seem to believe that people in
the ways that both you and I have seen......"
But elevators also have passengers that do asinine things like holding the doors -- there's a strong resemblance between "stand clear of the doors, there's another train behind this one" (oft heard here in Chicago on CTA!) and "don't hold the doors, let them catch the next elevator." (^: Elevators seem to manage fine operating totally automatically even in the face of the various stunts pulled by the riding public.
Now I would agree that:
1) retrofitting totally automatic train operation is expensive, must be done 100% or not at all, and may not be appropriate for existing systems;
2) ATO is probably not appropriate for systems with a lot of trespasser incursions, though I suspect this is more a surface ROW thing and affects commuter rail much more than rapid transit; and
3) ATO is REALLY not doable at all for light rail that actually runs in the street.
But if a system is designed with ATO in mind, has no street running, and either is all grade separated or maintains fencing on all grade-level ROW, I don't see why ATO is any more unworkable than the automatic elevator.
That is, unless you're looking at it from the [train or elevator] operator's perspective. (^:
No argument that it might be possible on a system built from scratch with that purpose in mind. Platform doors would be required along with measures to make the entire ROW intrusion resistant.(Intrusion PROOF is an impossibility.) Rolling stock would have to be fitted with some sort of some sort of track obstruction sensing device. ROW trespassing is a problem for Rapid Transit systems; I've seen a number of people take walks in subway tunnels. Question: Assuming said obstruction sensor is in place,a train detects an obstruction and stops;with no employee on board to investigate,how do we deal with the situation without incurring major delays?
My point is that older systems will probably never operate crewless trains,for many of the reasons you cite.ATO,therefore,is a waste of money as its full potential will never be realized. There are other advanced train control systems like the one I mentioned earlier that keep the operator "in the loop" while using computer supervision to detect and act upon human error before an incident occurs. They're not as glamorous to the engineering types,but they're still an improvement over the present signals and trippers.
I honestly think that moving the volume of people that NYCTA does that automation is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!. I sit here and can't imagine in a city of this size with the present subway modified into some robosized lionel set. I don't see any plans mentioned for automating LIRR or MNRR? or maybe the affluence of the riders has been taken into account?
Automation wouldn't work on commuter rail because of the grade separation and on-board fare collection. I still think it should be automated anyway. I can't see that the rich people care about who's operating the train any more than the others. In fact, I'll bet the affluent suburbanites would love to eliminate these jobs that they consider useless and money wasting.
i've never given a flying f**k what affluent people thought to begin with and wouldn't begin now...
Then why did you bother mention the commuter railroads as affluent if you don't care?
I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Tsk. Tsk.
what happens when water leaks into the control box on the train and the doors open when the train in moving? or the the trains' computers become "self aware". ever see terminator 2? people alway want things to be automatic. I aint payin a buck fity or (whatever it will be) if a robot is drivin the train. next thing you know people will want an automatic butt-scratcher! Automation is not always the answer
Why won't you? Isn't the $1.50 for transport or do you believe it's there for the benefit of some person? Anyway, as for automatic butt scratching, people usually don't pay someone by the hour to do that. People pay by the hour to drive a train.
P line: 2Av Local
Fulton St/Water St Manhattan to Baychester Av/Bartow Av, Bx.
All times, Rush hour express in Bx in peak direction....
Fulton St-South St Seaport/Water St
Brooklyn Bridge/Pearl St
Chatham Square
Grand St/Chrystie St, Transfer:B,D
Houston St/2Av*, Transfer: F,J,Z
9St/2Av
14St/2Av, Transfer:L (at 3Av)
23St/2Av
28St/2Av
34St/2Av*
42St/2Av*, Transfer:4,5,6,7,S(at Grand Central via 7)
50St/2Av
59St/2Av*, Transfer:4,5,6,N,R(at Lexington via N,R)
67St/2Av*, Transfer:Q
72St/2Av
79St/2Av
86St/2Av
96St/2Av
106St/2Av
116St/2Av
125St/2Av*
-------------------------------------------------------------
138St/3Av*, Transfer:6
149St/3Av*, Transfer:2,5
163St/3Av, Transfer: J on the upper level
169St/Boston Rd
Claremont Pkwy/Boston Rd
Southern Blvd/Boston Rd, Transfer:2,5
West Farms Rd/E.174St
E.Tremont Av/Morris Park Av*
White Plains Rd/Morris Park Av
Bronxdale Av/Morris Park Av
Wililiamsbridge Rd/Morris Park Av
Neill Av/Williamsbridge Rd
Pelham Pkwy/Wilson Av*
Allerton Av/Wilson Av
Eastchester Rd/Allerton Av
Gunther Av/Allerton Av
Baychester Av/Bartow Av
Line will be subway until West Farms Rd, elevated till the end.
Storage Yard will be between West Farms Rd and E.Tremont Av and Fulton St-South St Seaport.
Main Yard at 125St/Harlem Yard.
Switches/Interlockings at Houston, 42,67,125, and 149Sts.
Mini switches from northbound local to express at 86. Southbound local to express at 96St.
Switches at E.Tremont Av and Pelham Pkwy.
Track Configuration:
2 tracks from Fulton St to Houston St
6 tracks at Houston (part time terminus)
4 tracks from Houston to 125
6 tracks at 125(4 on upper level and a 2 track terminus on the lower level with the tracks continiuing either back to the upper level or to the Harlem Yard.)
4 tracks from 125 to 149
2 tracks from 149 to 163
3 tracks from 163 to Baychester Av.
Any comments and/or suggestions? Part 2 the J,Z line will be next....
I didn't know you engaged in fantasy
Yep that is all it is. A FANTASY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STAY TUNED!!!!
I don't think you should use the letter P, it would be confusing to tourists due to its likeness to R.
How about the H line? This would be especially appropriate since the Second Avenue line was part of the planned IND Second System, and the IND lines that were actually built went from A to G. Therefore, I would imagine that if the 2nd Avenue had been built when it was supposed to be, in the 1930s, it would have been the H line.
[How about the H line? This would be especially appropriate since the Second Avenue line was part of the planned IND Second System, and the IND lines that were actually built went from A to G. Therefore, I would imagine that if the 2nd Avenue had been built when it was supposed to be, in the 1930s, it would have been the H line.]
H is sometimes used to designate the Rockaway Park shuttle.
BTW - the Second Avenue line was not part of the planned IND Second System. Indeed, plans for the line predated the IND.
Not counting numbers, which letter(s) of the alphabet are NOT used for a primary station name. A secondary name does NOT count.
Hint: there is one letter definitely not used and a second has a prefix in front.
Y
Nope - there's York Street (F).
Wayne
Youre right damn. I wanted to say X at first but there's Ave.X
What constitutes the letter of the "primary name"? The phrase "Avenue X" starts with an "A" for "Avenue". And there is at least one station whose name starts with every other letter of the alphabet. So I say "X" it is.
[What constitutes the letter of the "primary name"? The phrase "Avenue X" starts with an "A" for "Avenue". And there is at least one station whose name starts with every other letter of the alphabet. So I say "X" it is.]
This lack of an "X" in the primary name of a station is regrettable, but it *can* be corrected. Xenia Avenue would be a logical place for a station on a new line connecting the 7 at 11th Street with the Queens Boulevard lines at 65th. We're not going to bother with some troublesome details, mainly the fact that such a line would be utterly pointless :-)
There's also a Xenia Avenue on Staten Island, no more than a few blocks east of the SIRT line.
While we're on the subject of Brooklyn "Avenues", (and, unfortunately, off the main topic :~) - why was there never an Avenue "E" in Brooklyn? I can see where Avenue "G" and Avenue "Q" would have gone (Glenwood Road and Quentin Road), but the only place I could see Avenue "E" being would be Foster Avenue.
Wayne
[ Avenues E, G, Q in Brooklyn ]
Wayne, Ave. E is a puzzle to me. The obvious answer would be Newkirk, but where Avenue F exists (east of Ocean Parkway) it is nouth of both Newkirk and Foster, so if one of the latter were "E", it would illogically come after "F." I have no evidence there ever was an Avenue E.
Ave "G" was the portion of Glenwood between Coney Island Ave. and Flatbush Ave., c.1926.
Ave "Q" did become Quentin Rd. I wonder if the local residents liked it better or it was easier to pronounce. Everyone I ever knew dealt with the pronunciation of Avenue U, by saying "av-en-YUH YOO" where they would otherwise say (for example) av-en-YOO TEE.
There is no "V" in any primary name of a station. Nor is there a "Q".
Wouldn't you count Van Siclen as one word - (the "Van" being an old Dutch prefix)?
Wayne
There are several Q: Queens Plaza, Queensboro Plaza, Queens Bridge come to mind immediately.
The only letter not used is "X" unless you wish to count Avenue "X".
The odd letters:
I: Intervale, Avenue "I"
J: Jay, Jefferson, Jackson, Junius, Avenue "J", Junction Blvd,
Jamaica-Van Wyck
K: Kosciuszko, Kingston, Kingston-Throop, Kingsbridge (2), Kingston,
Kings Highway (3), Knickerbocker
O: Ocean Parkway
Q: Queens Pza., Queensboro Plaza
U: Utica (2), Union Square, Union Street, Avenue "U" (3),
Union Turnpike
V: Van Siclen (3), Van Wyck, Vernon-Jackson
X: Avenue "X"
Y: York
Z: Zerega
Wayne
So I was correct then right?
Yes you most certainly were.
Wayne
What do I win???????????????
Are you sure you don't mean the first letter of the station name?
Atlantic Avenue
Beverley Road
Church Avenue
DeKalb Avenue
Euclid Avenue
Fort Hamilton Parkway
Grand Street
Hoyt Street
Intervale Avenue
Junius Street
Kings Highway
Livonia Avenue
Metropolitan Avenue
Nevins Street
Ocean Parkway
Pacific Street
Queensboro Plaza
Rector Street
Steinway Street
Tremont Avenue
Utica Avenue
Van Wyck Boulevard OR Van Siclen Avenue (Van is the prefix you referred to?)
Wall Street
X-**None begins with X, but Avenue X exists.
York Street
Zerega Avenue
The recent thread on the upcoming 95th anniversary prompted me to search my tape archive for the report I did for the CBS Radio Network on the 90th Anniversary. Below is a link to the .wav file of that report. The background sound is that of the LO-Vs that were operated on the Times Square Shuttle; the whine of the motors is especially evident during the sound bite of my interview with the conductor.
Beware! This is a 771K .wav file, and may take a bit to download for those of you who are T-1 impared. The report lasts about 35 seconds. Enjoy!!!
CBS Radio Network Report on the 90th Anniversary of the NYC Subway System
Todd, this file (like others on your site) open with something called "Sound Machine". Where can we find it or what else can be used to open the files?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those are .wav files- very generic and just about every operating system has something that can play them. If your system is trying to open "Sound Machine" it's in your browser settings. Why not just save it to your local drive and use Microsoft's Media Player to listen to it (assuming you've got a Windows machine).
Actually, I've got a Mac. But if I follow your logic correctly then I should be able to make QuickTime 4 work.
(two minutes later)
OK, it did! Thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I went to NYC to take pictures on NYC subways. I went to Willets Point-Shea Stadium, Queensboro Plaza, 4 Av (F), and several stations along the Brighton line. It was partly cloudy in the morning, but increasing clouds in the afternoon.
Here are my observations:
(1) I saw R62A 1906 with a yellow sticker on the #3 line.
(2) As posted earlier, the R36 odd-coupled 9348-9411 were in the
Corona Yard this morning.
(3) I saw three R42 trains on the Q line.
(4) There were two R46 E trains. The leftmost number was headed to
WTC. The rightmost number was headed to Queens.
5726-5727-5729-5728-6038-6039-6041-6040
5820-5821-5819-5818-5704-5705-5703-5702
Chaohwa
I have noticed that there are more bi-levels running on the Montauk Branch. I haven't seen the usual consist of former MU push/pulls bracketed by a GP38-2 and a MP15AC or an Alco FA or EMD F7 power car. The consist of the new trains on the Montauk Branch is usually a single DE30AC in charge of four bi-levels. As usual, no sign of the DM30AC's yet; at least not on this branch.
DM30AC #506 (East) and #508 (west) were being put through their paces this afternoon, hauling 8 Bi-levels. Seen in Jamaica station around 3:30 PM heading for Morris Park.
Steve,
Can you please recap the unit numbers of the DMs vs the DEs?
[ Steve,
Can you please recap the unit numbers of the DMs vs the DEs?
]
(I'm not the Steve you asked, but)..
The LIRR 1xx (100-149) series are SW series switchers (i.e. harold protect). (I think it's just 101-104).
150-199 would be MP15AC's (I think actual units range from 151-180 or thereabouts).
250-299 would be the GP38-2's.
3xx are the FL9AC's (only 3 units)
4xx are the DE30AC's (diesel only).
5xx are the DM30AC's (dual-mode)
6xx are the HEP/CC units.
Actually, I think the 2 locos at Harold are 102 and 104
The info I have on the DE30AC & DM30AC is that there will be 23 of each so I suppose that they will run 401-424 and 501-524. Again, this is a supposition.
I've seen numbers as high as 420 (heh) already. As for the Oyster Bay line, surprise surprise - we're back to the junky trains again - I've not seen any double deckers here in a few days - I think we have a grand total of one or 2 a day. Really annoying too that my LIRR ticket is going to pay for new equipment that I never see. Actually, I don't expect the old stuff to go away for another few years. hey - anyone think the LIRR will demotor some M-1s when the 7's come in 5 years and use them as diesel cars?
Metro-North is thinking about doing the same thing to their M2 cars. They're not sure if they will rebuild or replace them. As for the LIRR, why not? Once the conversion happens, they'll become as filthy and bedraggled as the current fleet of push/pulls.
There is a bilvel you just gotta know when it comes I was on one yesterday
[ DM30AC #506 (East) and #508 (west) were being put through their paces
this afternoon, hauling 8 Bi-levels. Seen in Jamaica station around
3:30 PM heading for Morris Park. ]
I did post this yesterday morning -- I saw the same consist heading east near hall tower, at about 8:30AM.
It seemed rather close to rush hour for testing...
Metro-North is trying to get back the FL9's that were rebuilt as FL9AC's and were assigned to the LIRR. MN favors the higher horsepower of these units than the unrebuilt ones. The rebuilding program was not as successful as they hoped, considering that each rebuilt unit cost $4.3 million apiece. But MN wants to run the FL9AC's until at least 2005.
Improve Bronx Services Plan
Extensions Proposed:
6) extended from Pelham Park to Co-op City
D) extended from 205th Street to White Plains Road/Gun Hill Road connect with 2 and 5
Notes:
New service to Co-op City will give residences direct access to mass train service.
While the D/2,5 connection will give passengers better access to the West and East Bronx.
Future expansions:
D - Possibly to Co-op City along Gun Hill Road
8 Or H (New Third Avenue Elevated Line)
Univeristy Ave (Fordham Rd) Underground Tunnel 2 Tracks (transfer 4)
Grand ConCourse (Fordham Road)UT2 (transfer D,4)
Fordham Plaza (Fordham Road) UT3 "Exp. Station Term." (Metro North)
184rd Street (Third Avenue) Outside/Elevated 3
181st Street (Third Avenue) OE3
E. Tremont Avenue (Third Avenue) OE3
173rd Street (Third Avenue)OE3
Crotona Park South (Third Avenue) OE3
167th Street (Third Avenue) OE3
163rd Street (Third Avenue) OE3
149th Street (Third Avenue) OE3 "Exp. Station" (transfer 2,5exp)
138th Street (Third Avenue) OE3 (Transfer 6/6exp)
Inside water tunnel to 125th Street 2nd Avenue Manhattan.
Demolish the Number 4 line from 167 to Mosholu Parkway
in it's place rebuild new elevated subway on Ogden-University Avs.
Woodlawn Station (Jerome Avenue)
Turn onto Gunhill Road West onto Goulden Avenue
Moshulu Pkwy Two (Goulden Avenue) Track Elevated
Bedford Park Blvd (Goulden Avenue) 2TE
W. KingsBridge Road (Goulden Avenue) 3TE Express Service Terminal
W. Fordham Road 3TE (University Avenue)3TE (Transfer 8)
W. 181st Street/Bx. Community College (University Avenue) 3TE
W. Tremont Avenue (University Avenue) 3TE
Washington Bridge (University Avenue) Express Station 3TE
W. 168th Street (Odgen Avenue) 3TE
W. 165th Street (Odgen Avenue) 3TE
W. 161st Street (River Avenue) 3TE (Transfer B,D)
W. 149th Street (Grand Concourse) 3TE (Transfer 2, 5local PM/AM Rush)
W. 125th Street (Lexington Avenue) 4TE (Transfer 5,6)
Doesn't seem low cost to me.
If they ever build the LIRR to GCT, the lowest cost improvement may be to build an East Bronx commuter rail line in the Amtrak ROW. It certainly has the room, and may even have more than two tracks? The service would compete with the New York Bus Service, and offer New Haven Line riders a choice of GCT or Penn.
why not just run some New Haven route trains via the Hell Gate Bridge into Penn Station? however isn't Penn Station just bursting at the seams already?
Penn Station is, absolutely - even with the capacity improvements currently underway, it won't help the LIRR situation, just NJT and Amtrak, and even then not much. That's why they want to build the connections to GCT - plenty of terminal space there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
True, however, we must considered the passengers who might have trouble paying for commuter service.
Dear Readers,
How much will it cost to extend the D line from 205th Street to White Plains Road/Gun Hill Road Bronx; connect the 2/5. Tunneling.
And, how much wil it cost to extend the 6 line from Pelham Bay Park to Co-op City. All elevated.
Approximate Cost, Thank you.
figure for extending the D in a subway configuration maybe around (in ball park figures)10 million dollars a mile and extending the 6 5-6 million per mile... i'm just throwing figures off the top of my head anyone have some data on cost/
The MTA seems to think it costs $1 billion per mile to build a subway. That's right, $1 billion, with cost over-runs on top of that. If it cost even $200 million, the cost level in L.A., we'd be building.
[The MTA seems to think it costs $1 billion per mile to build a subway. That's right, $1 billion, with cost over-runs on top of that. If it cost even $200 million, the cost level in L.A., we'd be building.]
That $1 billion figure was for the Second Avenue subway. I'd assume that construction costs in the Bronx would be quite a bit lower. There would be less above- and below-ground congestion than in Manhattan. Even so, it's hard to imagine that the costs would be as low as $200 million per mile.
A big factor in extending any tunnel is the surface infrastructure which has to be relocated. The dependence of business on telephone, fibre optic and electric lines make the relocation of these lines challenging and requires that any work be done at night and planned as to outages incurred. The big dig in Boston spent five years doing this! Deep tunneling is not an option in the Bronx due to the amount of rock involved and the existing shallow end of the Concourse line.
And no matter how poor the neighborhood, and no matter what economic benefit - nobody wants an el outside their window!
Makes it hard to acomplish anything.
Don't it always seem to go - that you don't know what you've got 'til its gone!
Hey guys,
Thanks for the responses on my research topic. I will be folowing up on your leads. As we say in Jamaiaca 'Irie, One Love".
Garfield
Dave, I've been looking at different tower model boards. The newer ones don't seem to convey as much information as the older ones. The best I figure are the old IND ones.
They have all the signals drawn on them.
But the indicator bulbs light up for more than one automatic. When a train is passing through a certain area I can see painted on the board several automatics but there's only one line and bulb for the area. Is that the control line? And are those cut sections? New boards have one bulb for every signal. The white line corresponds for each. But not on the old IND ones.
David didn't respond to this, so I guess I'll take a shot.
On the original IND model boards (not the newer NX/UR types)
there is a track indication light for every block. Where
there are approach signals and station timers then there is
more than one signal per block and there aren't individual lights.
A cut section is a place where there's an insulated joint separating
two track circuits, but no associated signal.
Every few days I get a package from our public relations dept. It contains news articles and editorials (related to transit or local gov't.). The packet I received for July 2-5 was interesting. There were 3 articles about the fire on the A line. What I found most interesting was the count of the number of people trapped. The times said that it was 350 people. The Daily News said it was 2,000 and the Post said it was 2,500. No particular point here, just an interesting observation...
No mystery at all - the Times actually counted, or printed the number furnished by the NYPD; the News took the total number of people who came out of the affected stations, whether or not they were on the train; and the Post had to come up with a more spectacular number, so they listened to the number being called in by the News reporter and added 25%.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Each paper's reporter probably asked a cop... and got a different answer. Or the reporter guessed. It's kinda like the Straphanger's Campaign ratings -- no scientific methods here!
And I'm sure a news wire service got a "report" that 4,712 people were trapped ....
--Mark
Thank you Todd! As usual, you knew exactly where I was coming from. The number of trapped people and the ratings of various subway lines are based on extremely unscientific data. They should be viewed in that context.
One thing to keep in mind, with respect to the trapped-riders number, is that crowd estimates of any sort are usually rough guesses at best (unless, of course, you're counting ticketholders or other easily quantifiable groups). No one *really* knows how many people jam into Times Square to see the ball drop on New Year's Eve. It's quite likely that the various estimates you see are off by as much as a third. And so it goes for last week's incident in Brooklyn.
with all the turnstiles hooked up with the computers into Livingston Plaza i wonder why statistical data couldn't be broadcast to provide a picture of customer usage. ridership whether token for farecard is stored in area controllers and at certain times during the day this info is feed to computers in Livington Plaza.
I'm not a subway expert, so forgive me for my ignorance but:
I was looking through the NYCTA line guides at this site and saw that the NYCTA has an active interlocking tower. I thought the entire subway system was run from a centralized location(like CTC). How many NYCTA towers are still active? Do they use armstrong, pistol grip, or push buttons? What do these towers look like?
Thanks.
I'm sure someone will coreect me if I leave any out:
IRT - These are 24\7 towers. There are also a number of satellite towers that are not always in use.
240 St
Times Square Mainline
Nevins St
Utica Ave
Livonia
239 St
E.180 St
149 St/ Grand Concourse (Mott)
Grand Central
Lenox
Jerome or Mosholu
Westchester Ave Master Tower
Times Square Queens
111 St
Queensborough Plaza
BMT/IND - I think I got all the Master Towers, but since I 'veonly worked on the N line, the first 5 are the only ones I'm absolutely certain of.
Stillwell Tower
Joe Murphy Tower (38 ST Yard)
DeKalb
City Hall
Queensborough Plaza
207 St
Concourse
59 St Master Tower
Essex St
Church Ave
(Queens Blvd?)
Parsons/Archer
179 St
Pitkin
East New York Master Tower
Liberty Junction
Rockaway Park
Most of these towers use push-buttons and range in style from being located in nice buildings to hidey-holes in the bowels of the station to what amounts to a small shack in the middle of nowhere.
Add West 4th Street to the IND list. (It's at the south end of the downtown platform on the lower level. You can easily watch the board from the platform. Very interesting.)
Bill
There is a board in the Court Street station (Transit Museum) that still shows the location of trains - not sure if this was considered a sub-tower or what.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here are some other towers that are used 24/7....
IRT
White Plains Mainline tower
BMT/IND
Jay St
Canal St
34th St(6th AV)
5th AV (E/F)
205th St
Bedford Park
Queens Plaza
Bergen St
4th AV (F/G)
Continental
Van Wyck Boulevard
8th Avenue(West End)
Isn't White Plains Mainline the same as 239th St?
No, there are two towers. 239 is in the yard, while the mainline tower is used for the terminal and the leads interlocking with the mainline.
Dont you mean 8Av(Sea Beach) or 9Av(West End)? I think it is the latter..........
Actually, the tower that controls the switches just north of 9th Av on the West End is referred to as 8th Avenue Tower. The tower that controls the switches just north of 8th Av on the Sea Beach (not 59th St) is referred to as the 6th Av tower, although this will be replaced by Stillwell Tower when all the signal work is done. 5th Av Cut tower is the tower that controls the switches that lead from the West End to the South Brooklyn Railroad.
And looking back at my previous post, I had a mental block, that was corrected, it's not Simpson Street on the White Plains line, it's Freeman St.
Just out of curiousity, when did the subway finally extend out to Coney Island? I think it might have been sometime in the late twenties, but then again I'm not the expert you guys are so I'm probably wrong. Thanks. Salvo.
[ Just out of curiousity, when did the subway finally extend out to
Coney Island? I think it might have been sometime in the late
twenties, ]
Well, there are no underground subways to Coney Island, but the elevated and street level lines were built there much earlier than that -- they were built in the 19th century as steam lines.. I'm sure someone can chime in with dates for the various lines.
Steve, I knew there were no actual underground tunnels out to Coney, but the proper terminology escaped me. I've been going out there every summer for as long as I can remember with my family and for as long as I've been alive Stilwell Avenue station has pretty much looked the same. My grandfather told me years ago that it wasn't there when he was a young man. I was just curious as to when that particular station came into being. Thanks for the information though.I do appreciate that you tried to educate me with your response to my question, and I'm being genuine here. Later, Salvo.
Salvo ... here you go .... most of this info is right on this site. Click on the links below for all the details!
Warning - long post!
From the Brighton Line history:
The Brighton Line began service on July 2, 1878 as the Brooklyn, Flatbush, and Coney Island Railroad, between Prospect Park and the Brighton Beach Hotel as a surface steam railroad. (The Brighton Beach Hotel was owned by the railway.) It was extended on August 19, 1878 at the north end to Atlantic Avenue and Franklin St. (now Franklin Avenue), where it connected with the LIRR mainline. The LIRR, however, owned the competing Manhattan Beach RR, and terminated the trackage right agreement in December, 1883. The BF&CI was then reorganized as the Brooklyn & Brighton Beach Railroad in 1887.
By 1900, through a series of mergers and acquisitions, the Brooklyn Rapid Transit company has gained control the Kings County Elevated (and the Brighton Line), along with almost every other railroad, elevated and streetcar line in Brooklyn, with the exception of some LIRR routes. In 1903, a short extension on the surface connected the Brighton Line with the Culver Terminal in Coney Island. Between 1905 and 1908, the BRT performed a major upgrade to the Brighton Line, building much of its present right of way. The line was elevated from the Fulton El connection at Fulton and Franklin, then ran in an open cut from north of Prospect Park to Newkirk Avenue, then ramped up to an embankment to Sheepshead Bay, where the line descended to the surface for the last section to Coney Island. Between Church Avenue and Sheepshead Bay, there were four tracks.
During the "Dual Contracts" period of subway construction, the surface-running section from Sheepshead Bay was elevated and increased to four tracks. The first section, between Sheepshead Bay and Ocean Parkway, opened on April 22, 1917. It was extended to West 8th Street on May 30, 1917, and to the new Stillwell Avenue terminal on May 29, 1919.
From the Culver Line History:
The Culver Line began service on June 19th, 1875 as a steam railroad called the Prospect Park and Coney Island between Prospect Park (9th Ave and 20th Street) and Gravesend Avenue and Neck Road. On July 27th of the same year, the steam line reached Cable's Hotel (later known as the Ocean View) in the West Brighton section of Coney Island at Culver Terminal. (Culver Terminal is the predecessor to today's Stillwell Avenue; its original location was at Surf Avenue and West 5th Street approximately where the Brightwater Towers stand today. Culver Terminal was a surface terminal adjacent to a roller coaster.) In 1879, the railroad leased the New York and Coney Island Railroad, and service began between Culver Terminal and Norton's Point, the very western most tip of Coney Island. Connections to steamboats to/from New York City were made at Norton's Point.
In 1919, the Culver Elevated was built over the South Brooklyn ROW (between 36th and 37th Streets from approximately 10th Ave to McDonald Ave) and over McDonald Avenue from approximately Ditmas Ave to Kings Highway, and then later to Avenue X. By 1920, this elevated structure was extended to the present-day connection with the Brighton Line at West 8th Street.
From the History of the Sea Beach Line:
The Sea Beach Line began service on July 18th, 1877 as a steam railroad called the New York and Sea Beach between the 64th Street pier and Bath junction (approximately where 62nd Street & New Utrecht Avenue intersect today). In 1879, the steam line reached the Sea Beach Palace Hotel in Coney Island and terminated at Sea Beach depot, located between the West End and Culver depots.
In 1896, the railroad was reorganized into the Sea Beach Railway Company. In 1898, the line was electrified with trolley wire and in 1903, the BRT began through service between Bath Junction and Coney Island. This was done by coupling and uncoupling Sea Beach cars to/from 5th Avenue - West End trains at Bath Junction. Trolleys ran west of Bath Junction to the pier and later to a ramp near 3rd Avenue. In 1910, Sea Beach trains began terminating at West End depot.
Between 1913 and 1915 as part of the Dual Contracts, the Sea Beach line as we know it today was built between Coney Island and the 4th Avenue Subway at 59th Street. This was looked upon as a significant line because the Sea Beach would provide passengers with the fastest express route to Manhattan then available in New York City. Also, the BRT planned on debuting the 67' Standard subway cars on this line when it opened. The 4 track Sea Beach route, virtually all open cut, had no express stops between Coney Island and 59th Street.
The new Sea Beach Line began revenue service on June 22nd, 1915 and connected into the 4th Avenue subway and Manhattan Bridge to Chambers Street. This was the first subway service made available in the 4th Avenue subway and the first on the Manhattan Bridge. Sea Beach trains began using the new Stillwell Avenue - Coney Island terminal on May 30th, 1919.
From The History of the West End Line
The West End Line began service in 1864 as a steam railroad called the Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island between 25th St and 5th Ave in South Brooklyn to the Bath section of Brooklyn, which in today's map would be 65th Street and New Utrecht Avenue. In 1867, the steam line reached Coney Island, making it the first steam railroad to reach the Atlantic Ocean at this location. In 1885, a branch was bulilt from 5th Avenue and 38th Street to Second Avenue and 39th Street as a ferry connection. Also in 1885, the BB&CI was reorganized into the Brooklyn, Bath and West End Railroad.
In 1889, when the 5th Ave El reached 5th Ave and 36th St, the railroad was abandoned north of 36th St. Trains then ran from 2 branches, one from the ferries and one from the junction of the 5th Ave El, to Tivoli's Hotel in Coney Island. The two branches joined in West Brooklyn, which is approximately where New Utrecht Ave & Ft Hamilton Pkwy meet now.
In 1893, the line was electrified with trolley wire and merged with the Atlantic Avenue Railroad which itself merged with the Nassau Electric Railroad in 1898. In November of 1893, the Atlantic Avenue Railroad started running streetcars on the line, and in early 1894, railway post office mail was begun on the line to Coney Island.
In 1901, BRT elevated trains began using the surface West End trackage, using trolley poles. Service connected to the West End from a ramp of the 5th Avenue elevated at 36th Street. Called the "5th Ave - West End Line", it ran using third rail from Sands St or Park Row to 36th St and then by trolley pole to Coney Island. Originally, the West End Line has its own Coney Island terminal, but later in the 1900s shared a terminal with the Sea Beach line.
In 1919, both the Culver and West End Lines moved to their new terminal, the present-day Stillwell Avenue and Coney Island BMT stop.
(Whew!)
--Mark
I appreciate the information that you left for me Mark. If I recall correctly with what my grandfather told me about thirty years ago, it stands to reason that he wouldn't remember the Stilwell Avenue station. It hadn't been built when he moved out of the city to Oyster Bay. I'm relatively new to this site, so thanks for pointing this out to me. Talk with you later. Salvo
FL-9 302 "Mike O'Connor back in service this morning on bi-level!!
Normal, on time operations occurred.
There is a card for the long distance service "101-6868" coming out. I do not yet have a list of stations but it will be available at the main booth, uptown side of 23rd and 8th ave. In a strange move, I got the cards before the bulletin! whern I see the bulletin I'll post the list of stations.
Re: The "ABCNews.COM" card that came out (again) July 5th.
Have got one with UN Sect. Kofi's likeness ... does anyone know how many different ones there are ? (Prev., March 99, it was Nelson Mandell & Fidel Castro).
Mr t__:^)
Construction on the new turnout just east of the tunnel portal of East River line #2 continues.
From what I've heard (maybe here, I don't remember), this is to reconstruct a long-ago removed crossover, and make line #2 accessable from some more northerly tracks.
What's new that I see, is that it looks like they are building a little 2 track "yardlet", right next to the shuttle portal. It's not very long, but it will be in the now fenced in area north of line #2, from the switches on the east, to just about HP ave on the west.
Anyone know what the proposed use of these two tracks would be? Just some place to stick work equipment during rush hours?
I am typing out a chart of the BMT number chart services from
1925 to 1960, when the number code was in use. I need to know how the
each of the BMT lines operated in those years:
(1) Brighton Local & Express
(2) 4th Avenue Local
(3) West End Local & Express
(4) Sea Beach Express
(5) Culver Local & Express
(6) 5th Avenue
(7) Franklin Avenue-Brighton Local
(8) Astoria Local
(9) Flushing Local & Express
(10) Myrtle Avenue-Chambers Street Express
(11) Myrtle Avenue Local
(12) Lexington Avenue Local
(13) 14th Street-Fulton Street Local & Express
(14) Broadway-Brooklyn Local
(15) Jamaica Local & Express
(16) 14th Street-Canarsie Local & Express
James S. Li
I am typing out a chart of the BMT number chart services from
1925 to 1960, when the number code was in use. I need to know how the
each of the BMT lines operated in those years:
(1) Brighton Local & Express
(2) 4th Avenue Local
(3) West End Local & Express
(4) Sea Beach Express
(5) Culver Local & Express
(6) 5th Avenue
(7) Franklin Avenue-Brighton Local
(8) Astoria Local
(9) Flushing Local & Express
(10) Myrtle Avenue-Chambers Street Express
(11) Myrtle Avenue Local
(12) Lexington Avenue Local
(13) 14th Street-Fulton Street Local & Express
(14) Broadway-Brooklyn Local
(15) Jamaica Local & Express
(16) 14th Street-Canarsie Local & Express
One more thing, I need to know what are the terminals for the each of the lines in those days.
James S. Li
There has been much speculation on SubTalk over the past year as to where the R-142s would go when they arrive. Following is an excerpt from a story that ran on WCBS Newsradio-88 this morning. The bottom line is we still don't know!
--- New subway trains are coming to New York City but the transit authority says there is no decision on where they will be rolling. An earlier report that the trains would be on the Number Seven Line from Times Square to Flushing Queens is premature.
Transit spokesman Al O'Leary says the Number Seven Line has some of the oldest cars in the subway fleet, and would be likely candidates for replacement. But it's not known if that line will get the new cars.
The new subway cars will feature electronic door systems, more comfortable seats, better lights, information screens and an improved public-address system.
[ Transit spokesman Al O'Leary says the Number Seven Line has some of
the oldest cars in the subway fleet, and would be likely candidates
for replacement. But it's not known if that line will get the new
cars. ]
Of course, using qualifications like "some of" makes the statement hard to argue with, but the mainline R26,28,29's are older.
But, weren't the flushing cars the first to get rebuilt? If you use the "rebuild" age, they may be the oldest..
They do seem to be in worse shape than the mainline cars.
Politically, it would be best to spread them around a bit, like when the first A/C cars were brought into service. Whatever they do, I think they will want to do something on ther flushing line, though.
Maybe a fair and manageable solution would be to put the R142's on the mainlines, and move R62(A)'s over to the flushing line.
I was thinking about this last week, when I enjoyed my ride on the 7 line. From the rail fan perspective, it would be a shame to take the Redbirds off that line and replace them with the 62s, especially if they have their full-width cabs implemented on the head end. The rail fan view (and other sensations!) from the front of a 'bird on the Flushing Line can't be beat!
The 7 wouldn't be the 7 without those worlds fair cars!!!
It was the 7 before the World's Fair Cars. Oh by the way, what happened to the 1989 World's Fair? There was one in 1939, then 1964, twenty-five years later, but no '89 fair!
Well, there was no 1914 World's Fair either, so I guess the every-25-years-thing doesn't work unless Robert Moses is involved with the city and state government. And that's not likely to happen again for a while.
There has been, but it's called a 'World's Fair' so it's been in other places. I can remember Vancouver BC and New Orleans.
-Hank
Where and when was the latest? How often are they held? When was the first? What other cities have had multiple fairs?
Chicago had the Columbian Exposition in 1892, and the Century of Progress Expo in 1933.
Chicago's Columbian Exposition was actually held in 1893, one year after the 400th anniversary - seems they didn't do a very good job of advance planning.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's also a bit ironic that -- if you believe the Straphanger's Campaign survey -- the Flushing Line, with some of the oldest cars in the system, was rated the best line overall.
If it wasn't for the rust problem, it sounds like they should keep the Redbirds, and dump some of the other equipment (How about an R-44 vs. R-68 demolition derby as part of the subway's 95th anniversary in October?)
Now, THAT would be something! I would even pay admission for something like that. Then for the main event, they could throw in a BMT standard into the mix. It would pulverize the competition and emerge unscathed.
And for good measure, bringing up the "rear end" brigade, would be a couple of sets of D-Type Triplexes, loaded down with a couple of tons of cement bags, pallets of tiles, rails, etc. each. I can just hear 'em go CRUNCH! (Remember the 1926 Pressed_Steel MU Coach vs. 1971 St. Louis Car Bilevel incident of Oct. 30, 1972, on the Illinois Central RR in Chicago? OUCH!!! [I am not trying to make light of this unfortunate accident; there was a great loss of life, mostly if not all in the Bilevel] )
Wayne
You wouldn't have to load the Triplexes down; they're heavy enough all by themselves. One unloaded Triplex would put a major hurt on an R-44 or R-68 or any car, for that matter. I do remember the IC incident; there is a photo in the 1973 Americana Annual, and even Readers Digest wrote about it. There were two young women pinned beneath the wreckage, and everything needed to be pulled and peeled away before they could be rescued. Both survived. The old South Shore cars were also 1926 vintage and were just as massive as those old IC coaches.
I was working messenger service in NYC back then. On Oct. 31, I made my way to Times Square to pick up the Chicago Tribune from the Out-of-Town newsstand (wonder if it's still there). The front-page picture said it all. The first coach of the 1926-vintage train (which was travelling at 45MPH+) had plowed forty feet through the rear of the Bilevel and was sitting up at an angle amid the wreckage, largely unscathed. Another photo in the NY Times a day or so later showed the two cars pulled apart, the MU re-railed and sporting a broken cab and storm door window and a few front-end dents (they DID cut through its roof), the rear two-thirds of the Bilevel was gone. I wonder what one of those monsters weighed in at. A BMT Standard weighs 49 Tons.
Not sure of a set of Triplexes. Probably weighs 60 tons or more a set.
Wayne
A Triplex unit weighed in at 105-106 tons. Don't forget - one Triplex, at 137 feet, was the service equivalent of two BMT standards at 67 feet apiece.
The old South Shore cars weighed 60 tons as delivered. During and after WWII, many were lengthened to 78 feet and in the process, gained an additional 15-17 tons. I would imagine the 1926 IC cars were in that same weight class.
A standard North Shore interurban car weighed about 50 tons.
Thanks for the information! The frying-pan thin walls of the Bilevel "Highliner" was obviously no match for 60-plus tons of "Pressed Steel" - it fell apart like tissue paper.
I wonder if Metra or whatever is running the old IC service still has any of those St.Louis car Bilevels (the ones involved in the wreck) in service.
Wayne
The highliners are, AFIK, still in service - I want to ride one, but the thought does make me nervous - I think it was later found that they don't do well in any sort of accidents..
And they DON'T! A few years later there was a minor accident, at low speed, which resulted in one getting all torn up. Ride if you wish, but stay in the centre of the train. They look pretty, but from what I've seen, they can't hold up in a crash. If they're still rolling, they must be doing OK mechanically, approaching 30 years of service.
I still wonder if any of those old Pressed Steel coaches are still floating around anywhere. They looked mean enough to take out a BMT Standard.
Wayne
I'd say that would be a pretty fair fight. Know what would be even better? An IC coach going one-on-one with an old South Shore coach. Ka-booooommmmm! Like those two Triplexes at Stillwell Ave. on June 19, 1955. Oh, and Fred, sorry to say this, but they were Sea Beach expresses.
{Maybe a fair and manageable solution would be to
put the R142's on the mainlines, and move R62(A)'s
over to the flushing line.}
Perhaps the R142 should replace the R62's on the 4 and 6 and those cars transferred to the 7 line. Then everyone can say that they are getting "new cars"
One question though: are the R62's single car units
like the R68's, or are they coupled together in
bunches? If so, then the logical choice is to put
the R62's on the 7, so
they can finally have 11 completley A/C'd cars. The
R142's are supposed to be linked into 5 car
segments, making 11 car trains mathematically
impossible.
Once the R-142 order is delivered, it would seem unfair and illogical to have all redbirds on the #7 and all R-62/62A and R-142 equipment on the Lex and 7th lines. What seems logical is that whatever equipment besides redbirds winds up on the #7, it should be the same equipment as on the #3. That way, such equipment can be broken down into 5-car sets (for use on the #3 and #7) and 4-car sets for use on the #3 and 6-car sets for use on the #7. All other IRT equipment can then be in 5-car sets for all the other lines (other than the remaining redbirds). This would probably eliminate the need to retain any post-redbird IRT cars in single-car configuration, other than on the Times Square Shuttle.
The R142 are coming in several different configurations, including 4, 6 and 3-car sets. Check the Bombardier website, and the archive, because I've posted all this info several times before.
-Hank
will the r62-62A or 142s that end up on the Flushing line be retrofitted with tripcocks on both sides of the cars?
The #7 line is the best in the system, and I feel it deserves the
R-142 cars. What's leftover should be distributed to the other IRT
lines. Why should the passengers who ride this line to Shea, Flushing
Meadows Park, and the tennis stadium be treated to used R-62?
According to highly placed sources at Jay St (no, I have been asked not to name names), the 2 and the 5 will be the first lines to see R-142s operate in service. The 7 may get some 142s, but will likely get 62s from Lexington Ave.
The new shipments are to replace the redbirds which in my opinion as a commuter, are terrible. The announcements aren't good, when they are, they are to loud, there are no chimes when the doors close, and there are occaisonal times when the lights go out. As a railfan, I would hate to see them go. The newer cars all no railfan window or like on the R62 and R62A with the full width cabs, you get a better view of the speedometer than the tracks.
From an operating POV, I would rather have doors that don't go ding-dong. All the ding-dong tone is good for is giving the ding-dongs a warning of when to stick some body part in the closing door.
From an operating POV, I would rather have doors that don't go ding-dong. All the ding-dong tone is good for is giving the ding-dongs a
warning of when to stick some body part in the closing door.
I don't know if it makes any difference to you, but you probably won't here a ding-dong anymore. You'll probably here a voice saying "Please watch the closing doors" once or twice, followed by the "bee-be-bee" door closing sound like the R110A. -Nick
It's that bee-be-bee sound that has got to go. I ALREADY tell them to "Stand clear of the closing doors, please". A lot of riders take this to mean they have another minute or so to get to the doorway they want. In the last five days (Friday - Tuesday), I left behind about 20 people at Ditmars Blvd who either a:didn't get on after the announcement or b: chose that time to jump off one car and make a mad dash for the next one. Unfortunately, during the rush hours, I will NOT reopen to let them on. (In all honesty, its really funny watching them as the train pulls out)
I ALREADY tell them to "Stand clear of the closing doors, please".
True, you do this now...but you may not have to with the R142, if it's like the R110A messages. -Nick
Maybe they'll install the same chipset they retrofit into the Washington DC Metro Cars. It announces "Doors Opening", "Doors Closing", (and if someone blocks "Please Stand Clear of the Doors"),
followed by a classic D#->B "Ding-Dong", as currently exists on all R44-and-up cars. I agree - the -bee-bee-bee- is AWFUL. So was the "Ping-Ping" in the DC Breda cars, which, thankfully, is now history.
Wayne
It doesn't need to be a source too high placed to figure that one out. East 180th St shop was rebuilt to accommodate the R-142s.
What changes were needed at E 180th to accommodate the R-142s?
The entire shop was demolished and rebuilt over the past few years. I'd say they were upgrading the facilities for the new cars. They also rebuilt the entire Unionport storage area.
The two single most important changes were:
Facilities for removing and installing the HVAC in the roof of the cars.
Fiber optic cables for the computers that will record warranty and maintenance data and assist in training and troubleshooting.
Other improvements included air conditioning and 20th cenntury employee facilities.
so its settled then. since the 180th street yard was built to accomodate the new cars guess where the new cars will run...
hint- its not the flushing line
I dont think that yard was designed to hold 1080 new cars. I doubt this discussion will be setled
180th Street is being set up to be the R142's Maintenance Facility. Of course all 1080 (or 1490, if the options are exercised) won't fit there. For that, you have Union-Port, Wakefield, Pelham, and maybe even Livonia and/or Lenox. AND if some of these make their way over to the #1 line, 240th Street.
Wayne
what about the new track being laid down between Morris Park and Dyre Ave. New Track is be put down between Y1 & Y2 from north of Morris Park to Dyre why not layup the new equipment there?
Because it becomes an easy target for vandalism.
-Hank
thats really sad. in the city people will steal anything from copper wire from street lights to subway ads. can you imagine people stripping down a subway car like juvenile delinquents strip down stolen cars?
figure delivery will probably be 5/10 cars a month shouldn't occupy too much track space. who's to say the new cars will stay on layup tracks betw 180 and Dyre?
Well, I hear the 142's may end up on the #7 line according to a newspaper article I read last week. Does anyone actually know what they look like? I heard they were pretty horrendous looking. I'm also sure that they will have a lot of electrical problems with them. It's really a shame that the Redbirds are so rotten and decrepit. However, I got the chance to ride a Redbird on the #2 line from Gun Hill Rd. to East 180th Street and the Redbirds were doing a good 50+ mph down the incline between Burke Ave. & Pelham Pkwy.
I think your Nom-de-plume needs a little work, my friend. It's totally inappropriate here.
Sounds like my announcements on the Culver line this week.
At Kings Highway: "Coney Island bound F,U is next"
At Av. X : "Manhattan bound F, U is next"
that LOSER was just mad that their line wont be getting the new cars... a matter that is totally out of their hands... some people just take themselves too seriously...
And no railfan windows...
Everybody wants the new cars on their line and through their neighborhood. I bet people on the showcase line aka broadway local want the new cars. The fairest decision would be to give the lines with the oldest cars to get the new ones. Why should the 1,3,9 or 4 & 6 for that matter even see new cars? they already have "new" cars. The 2,5 and 7 should get the new cars. maybe they should just build a track link to the flushing line from the IRT to end all this arguing. Flushing riders will scream bloody murder if they dont get new cars.
ps. i'll bet money that something will go wrong with the 142s and the rebirds will be resurrected at some point in the next century.
From my point of view it APPEARS that the 2/5 lines will get the R142's first since the E 180th street shops were demolished and rebuilt from the ground up. The shop is complete and will likely be the home base for the new equipment. Word had it that since the R62 was already tested on the #7 line, Corona yard is already prepared to maintain these cars. R142 must go I heard 11 months of scrutiny by the shops car inspectors before it is accepted. If any retooling occurs then the process starts all over for another 11 months or something like that...
Okay, may as well put my two cents into this: I agree that the 2 and 5 lines should get the R142's first, and the rest should be given to the 4 and 6. The R62's will do fine on the 7, since they were on there for a short time during a redbird re-build in the mid 80s. Also, the 7 is such a short line too, and it seems to be mostly jammed only during rush hours (for the most part with a few exceptions) while the 4 and 6 are almost always jammed, and there is no second avenue subway in the near future. I'd much rather have computerized signs and voices on the more crowded trains.
As for the redbirds being retired, it's a shame....but their time has to come eventually. Unfortunatly, while they run fine, they are rotting, and many make an awful squeeking sound when they brake. But I will definitely miss the railfan windows. -Nick
I do not know about the R142 but from past history the Lo-V cars spent their last years on the East Side while the West Side lines had new cars. I also noticed that when the 1964 Fair brought new cars to the 7, the old 7 line cars went to the main line IRT.
The R62 cars ran first on the West Side Lines (and replaced the cars that replaced the Lo-V cars and the Hi-V cars)
Therefore, if the past holds true:
The new cars will go the 1,2,3 lines and the "old" R62 will go to the 4,5,6 and maybe the 7. Under this **theory**, any remaining redbirds would run on the 4,5,6.
**disclaimer- this post is personal opinion and not that of MTA or NYCT***
In my opinion because Flushing's car requirements are over 400 cars and because Flushing maintains both GE and Worstinghouse electric equipment they would be a likely candidate to receive mainline R-62 and R-62a cars. The GE SCM group boxes could be hacked off the departing R36 cars and utilized on the existing Westinghouse R62s to make them reliable. It would be cheaper than going out to the ECAM that the R-68s are supposed to. After all if you remember the scrapped R-30s had their's removed before their farewell voyage to South Brooklyn. By the way anyone know how our favorite R-68 is doing after the marshmallows were toasted?
Does anyone know if the 1999 MTH subway car sets are available yet?
Also, can you buy them at a local model railroad/hobby shop w/o first placing an order? (I seem to recall last year that these train sets were not keep 'in stock', but required a deposit before the dealer ordered them from the company).
Doug aka BMTman
I can find out for you. I will ask my dealer freind.
This set was available at Trainworld under the F at Ditmas without special order. I don't know if it still is.
I purchased a set at Trainworld for myself as an Xmas gift. It runs like a dream..
There not out yet. =(
Too bad, I think I'll pick up a set, paint em, and run them as H&M/PATH trains.
If the information I have is correct, the 1999 subway car sets from MTH will not even be on the market until October. From what I have been told they will be the same as the 1998 set but without the blue stripe. They are supposed to be making a two car add-on for the 1998 set with the blue stripe as well (you can create a six car train with this). The two car add-on set will be available in September 1999. The 1998 set occasionally turns up at train shows but at secondary market prices.
Karl B
The info you have given is correct as I know it. Aside from the lack of the blue stripe, the 1999 cars will be lettered as 'E' trains rather than 'D's. I have 2 sets on order although I don't know what I'll do with them since I model in N gauge.
To Karl & Steve: thanks for the info. I too model in a scale other than the MTH sets (HO to be precise), but plan on using them solely as 'display models' on top of my bookcase (because of this I am only interested in the 1998 add-on cars w/blue striping).
Doug aka BMTman
THEY WILL BE OUT DURING THE LAST 1/4 OF 1999. I ORDERED SIX SETS AT TRAINWORLD IN DEC. I TRIED TO ORDER MORE AND THEY SAID THAT HEY STOPPED TAKING ORDERS ON THEM.
I know subway trains run over the Manhattan Bridge and the Williamsburg Bridge, but I've seen train tracks in old photos on the Brooklyn Bridge. I know this is not so anymore, but I was wondering what trains ran over the Brooklyn Bridge and when this traffic ceased.
Anybody out there with an answer?
Technically speaking, no subway ever ran across the Brooklyn Bridge. But some of the BRT/BMT elevated lines did and they terminated at an elevated station at Park Row. If I remember right, before the turn of the century, cable-powered shuttle trains crossed the bridge. With the advent of electric traction, through service began early in the century.
For sure, I can tell you that the Brighton Line ran over the bridge, starting at Park Row, then Sands Street, Brooklyn (also a major terminal), along Fulton St, then via Franklin Ave to Propsect Park and the current Brighton Line.
I think service over the Brooklyn Briodge stopped in 1940.
This was well before my time but I think the original Canarsie and Culver lines did, too ... am I right fellow subtalkers??
--Mark
Brooklyn Bridge service on the BRT/BMT routes was strictly wooden elevated cars - no steel subway cars (e.g., Standards or Triplexes) ever ran over this route. The ancestral routes of today's BMT/IND Southern Division subway routes ran over the Brooklyn Bridge - the Sea Beach, West End, Brighton, and Culver; also the old el routes on 5th/3rd, Fulton, Myrtle, and Lexington. If the Canarsie ever did (don't know) - it would have had to travel via the Futon El to East NY.
Brooklyn Bridge el trains made their last runs in March 1944.
A large number of BMT trolley routes also crossed the bridge into Manhattan, using the same Park Row terminal. This service ended in March 1950.
Fred, The thing to remember as you discover more & more old photos and tracks on bridges such as Queensboro, Williamsburg, Manhattan & Brooklyn is that a lot of trolleys came to Manhattan from Brooklyn & Queens this way until they were "bus-substituted" during the La Guardia admin. (mid to late 40s).
For example, there is still evidence of a very large trolley terminal at Delancery & Essex (Williamsburg Bridge) and at the foot of the Queensboro Bridge. There was also a group of trolleys that operated much like a the current subways in Manhattan, i.e. via third rail, but via a "conduit" under the street rather then a 3rd RAIL.
BTW, you may have noticed that I like trolleys as well as subways.
Mr t__:^)
Fred aka Mr Sea Beach; Glad to see your new handle. Subway trains per se never ran over the Brooklyn Bridge. The Brooklyn Bridge cable railway began running on September 24,1883 as a self-contained operation between Park Row and Sands Street. At Sands Street passengers could transfer to other el lines, after electrification of the Brooklyn els some cars were also equipped with cable grips which allowed some through operation over the bridge. By 1908 all service was electric all the way. The Brooklyn Bridge was the prime access route to Manhattan for all the BRT Southern Division prior to the Dual Contracts,the West End,Sea Beach,Culver, 5 Avenue,Brighton as well as the Eastern Divison Myrtle Av, Lexington Av,and Fulton St Lines. With the openning of the Fourth Av Subway and the Manhattan Bridge much traffic was diverted and the line was used less and less until it was closed on March 5,1944.
The original consruction of the Chambers St Station provided for the two west tracks to connect into the Brooklyn Bridge at the south end and there was and is some construction for this connection. This is the reason that the two westernmost tracks at Chambers St are higher at the south end than the eastern tracks. The original Nassau St connection would have been to the two east tracks and not the two outer tracks as it is today.
This and the occasion vist to Park Row of the Green Hornet and Zephyr were the closest the Brooklyn Bridge came to seing subway cars.
Doug...Don't forget the original Bluebird (#8000)also ran across the Bridge in service on the Fulton St. El from March 1939 until the end of thru el srvice on Fulton St.
Carl M.
At a minimum, at one time or another, Brighton, Culver, Fifth Avenue, West End, Fulton Street, Lexington and Myrtle trains had at least some primary service over the Brooklyn Bridge.
Additional, many trolley lines used the bridge, and there was also a bridge shuttle for a long while.
Your being Sea Beach Man, I saved the best for last. The Sea Beach also had service over the bridge, though apparaently its cars were always coupled to the cars of other lines.
The whole thing ended in two stages. The el service that survived unification ended in 1944, and trolleys were switched to the former L tracks, then the trolleys were removed in 1950.
Redbird, Paul, Thurston and the rest of you great guys. Thanks for the info on the Brooklyn Bridge. I've still got an awful lot to learn. I'm getting there. Isn't this website a gas?
I was stuck at Delancy on the F line the other day and on the northbound side there is a tile sign with an arrow pointing one direction and the word Delancy and another arrow pointing the other direction with the word Broome. But if you follow the arrow there is no Broome nor any evidence that there was such an exit.
Anyone???
ah yes- the famopus non-entrance entrance. The subway, especially the IND is full of entrances that were closed due to crime concerms. Others that copme to mind are : Howard Ave (A,C), Classon Ave (A,C), the NORTH exit at Eastern Parkway Brooklyn Museum/ The Rockaway line is also full of closed entrances, in some cases the stariway to the street is still there! The M Line has had one exit removed from most stations. I could go on and on. Read Peggy's line-line-line descriptions. This subject is covered in detail.
In the station by station listing, there is something said about the abandoned NYWB railroad station. Can this station still be seen?
Is it part of Metro North? Closed to the public, is it right underneath Elder Ave?
No. It is adjacent to the Whitlock Avenue Station.
Allan is right, that's a mistake in the Bronx IRT write up which I'm fixing right now. The NYWB station was near Whitlock not Elder.
J: 2Av Express: Jamaica Ctr, Queens --- 233St/Laconia Av, Bx
Z: 2Av Express: " " " " " " " " """ White Plains Rd/Gun Hill Rd, Bx (rush hours and evenings)
Z: 2Av Express: Houston St, Manhattan----White Plains Rd/Gun Hill Rd, Bx (Middays only)
Essex St/Delancey St, Transsfer: F,M
Houston St/2Av, Transfer: F,P
34St/2Av
42St/2Av, Transfer: 4,5,6,7,S via 7 @ Grand Central
59St/2Av, Transfer: 4,5,6,N,R via N,R @ Lex
67St/2Av, Transfer: Q
125St/2Av
------------------------------------------------
138St/3Av, Transfer:6
From here J becomes 3Av Local and Z is the 3Av Express
149St/3Av*, Transfer:2,5,Q
163St/3Av, Transfer:P on the lower level
168St/3Av
Claremont Pkwy/3Av
174St/3Av
E.Tremont Av/3Av*
180St/3Av
184St/3Av
Fordham Plz/3Av*, Connection:Metro North
Bedford Park Blvd/Webster Av
204St/Webster Av
White Plains Rd/Gun Hill Rd*, Transfer: 2,5
Bronxwood Av/ Gun Hill Rd
219St/Laconia Av
225St/Laconia Av
233St/Laconia Av
Track Configuration:
4 tracks from 149St to White Plains Rd
3 tracks from White Plains Rd to 233St
Switches and Interlockings:
E.Tremont Av/3Av
Fordham Plz/3Av
White Plains Rd/Gun Hill Rd
E.233St/Laconia Av
Mini Switches:
Northbound at 219St
Soutbound at 225St
Storage Yard:
One track connection to Concourse Yard @ Fordham Plz
Line will become elevated between 149 and 163St
*: Express stop
Any thoughts, questions, comments? Q line will be next..............
Expensive idea #3 train. They better off running the N train via 3rd Avenue in the Bronx.
Low cost option.
D to White Plains Road and 6 to Co-op City.
Here is a plausible version of the Bronx services (something that might be worth pushing for):
Subway under Boston Road as already noted. Turns east under 173rd or 174th Street to Amtrak right-of-way. Two options from here (not necessarily mutually exclusive): 1) Via Northeast Corridor to Parkchester, Westchester Heights and Co-op City; 2) via NW&B trestle to 180th Street and Morris Park Avenue. Possible extension via center tracks of Dyre Avenue line (with stop at Pelham Parkway) and then underground (via Arnow Avenue?) to Co-op City.
Provision should be made around 163rd Street and 3rd Avenue for future 3rd Avenue extension. However, an earlier step would be to upgrade Bx55, possibly to light rail or ETB. Overpasses are needed to avoid congestion at Fordham Road and Gun Hill Road. Traffic signal preemption would help running times.
How come there isnt a 1Av-UN station on the 7?
I've heard this discussed before, and I think the consensus may have been that it was too deep at the time to build a station there.
What was the route of the streetcar line the stienway tubes were originally built for?
[re why no First Avenue/UN station on the 7]
[I've heard this discussed before, and I think the consensus may have been that it was too deep at the time to build a station there.]
In addition, there probably wasn't any demand for a station at that location when the line was built. Most of the area now occupied by the UN was a grimy industrial district with a number of slaughterhouses.
If they built a station on Roosevelt Island, they can do it with the No. 7 line at 1st Avenue, L line at Avenue C, J/M/Z lines at the far east side and so on. Just redirect the passengers to the E, F, N, and R lines in Queens; J,M,Z or A, C lines in Brooklyn.
[If they built a station on Roosevelt Island, they can do it with the No. 7 line at 1st Avenue, L line at Avenue C, J/M/Z lines at the far east side and so on. Just redirect
the passengers to the E, F, N, and R lines in Queens; J,M,Z or A, C lines in Brooklyn.]
And don't forget the Q 63rd route. Lower cost option to building the second avenue line.
You're forgetting that the Roosevelt Island station was part of all-new construction. Any new station on an existing line would be an incredibly massive undertaking, and would cause service disruptions for years.
-Hank
Would it have to? I would think that, given today's construction techniques, the station could be at least 98% dug out behind the tunnel wall without broaching the tunnel. Then a short-term closure (no longer than a couple of weeks) might be required to open the platform space to the tunnel. After that, single-tracking at nights and on weekends should be sufficient to permit the completion of the platform edge. Work in the open area could proceed regardless of train traffic. Barcelona did this back in the early '70s when I was living there, and I would hope that the technology has advanced rather than retreated in the meantime.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IT CAN BE DONE! Thank you Anon e mous!
In principle, yes, it can be done. There is a lot of information about the specific location that we don't have that may affect whether or not it can be done at the location desired, such as building foundations, underground aquifers, etc., not to mention NIMBYs and politicians. But at least we know the technology exists to do it with a minimum of disruption to the existing subway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The 7 could run along the N line between Queensboro Plaza and Times Square. The southbound 7 would go onto the 3rd track north of 61st-Woodside, go to the end of the 3rd track and go onto the northbound track. It would stop at Queensboro Plaza and then switch over to the southbound N track at the crossover east of the R merge, make all stops to 57th Street, and then run express to 42nd. Passengers would alight on the southbound platform, the train would continue into the tunnel, turn around on the single crossover south of 42nd, and come back on the northbound side and do the same thing except it wouldn't run express between Queensboro Plaza and 61st Street. Other 7 trains would continue to Vernon-Jackson Aves. and terminate there. Others would run between Grand Central and Times Square. At non-peak times, all trains would go to Vernon-Jackson Aves and you'd have to switch to the N at Queensboro Plaza. The Grand Central-Times Square Shuttle would still run at all times.
[ talk about re-routing the 7 via the N QBP -> times square ].
Okay, the 7 trains would fit there just fine, as they do, of course pass that way on the way to the shops, etc.
What would you do about the gap between the doors and the platform?
I am aware of that. I guess they could make a temporary extension to the express platform at 42nd and 57th. I'm not sure about between 5th Ave and Queensboro Plaza. I think 6 inches is too big of a gap (it would be bigger than the 42nd Street Shuttle at Times Square). Another problem is scheduling. The schedule would have to be adjusted to allow the inbound 7 to run on the outbound track without hitting any outbound 7s or Ns. The thru service would only run between 5:30 AM and 9:30 AM and 3 PM to 8 PM and peak times (i. e. after Mets games). Also, PM express service would have to start north of 61st-Woodside due to the inbound 7 running on the 3rd track. Trains to Vernon-Jackson Aves would make local stops south of 61st-Woodside when the trains to Times Square ran express.
NYCTA did do it back in the late 1950s when the 59th St. express station on the 4/5 was constructed.
If you're going to spend that amount of money, you're better off extending the shuttle. Its grade is such that it could pass over the Lex. It could be coverted to some kind of automated, one vehicle per minute short haul line, with stations every block, and one added at 6th Avenue for B/D/F/Q connections. The UN could be the final stop. Then you extend the #7 west and boom, you have your grade separated 42nd St crosstown.
I think Parsons was right -- better to have the stations near the surface, especially for people traveling a short distance. The need to get up and down the stairs is the reason the subway lost to the car on 42nd Street.
A billion here, a billion there.
Does anyone have a clue as to how deep the 7 line is at that point? I rode the Barcelona subways back in 1994 when my ship pulled in for Christmas. That's a nice system!!!
In addition, there probably wasn't any demand for a station at that location when the line was built.
Most of the area now occupied by the UN was a grimy industrial district with a number of
slaughterhouses.
Actually, wasn't that area an exclusive residential section
called Tudor Village?
You *could* build a station down there, but it would really
mess up the Flushing line to have trains stopped on such a
steep grade. The Steinway tubes were built for trolleys, not
rt, and they are the steepest tubes in the system. Put a station
stop at First Avenue (which is pretty near the bottom) and the
trains per hour capacity through the tubes will suffer.
Better to have them get off at Grand Central and take the 42nd Street light rail :)
So, you think that they would have torn down an "exclusive residential section" to build the UN? Tudor City is on the West side of First Avenue, at the top of a cliff, with little or no access to First Avenue. Access is from Second Avenue. I'm not sure which was built first, the UN or Tudor City; but, considering the orientation of Tudor City to the West, I would guess that the slaughter houses were there when it went up.
As for capacity through the tubes, I assume that you mean that only the West-bound tube would be affected. For how much of the day is the West-bound tube at capacity?
Before WWII, the rich part of the east side ended at Park Avenue. Manhattan was the poorest borough. And the East River Waterfront was industrial.
I believe Tudor City was the first development for the rich to the east, setting off a trend of "gentrification" of inner parts of the city that spread throughout the east side, to the west side, onto Greenwich Village, and into Brooklyn. That's 50 years of history moving in one direction. I project it forward -- into Washington and Hamilton Hts, Sunsent Park, the Grand Concourse, etc.
[So, you think that they would have torn down an "exclusive residential section" to build the UN? Tudor City is on the West side of First Avenue, at the top of a cliff, with little or no access to First Avenue. Access is from Second Avenue. I'm not sure which was built first, the UN or Tudor City; but, considering the orientation of Tudor City to the West, I would guess that the slaughter houses were there when it went up.]
Tudor City does pre-date the UN. Because the area now occupied by the UN was unsightly at the time, Tudor City's buildings have few or no east-facing windows. I'm sure the residents for the past 50 years have been most unhappy with that situation :-)
Yeah, not many eastern views from Tudor City.
Whereas from the 14th-floor offices of my employer, on 45th between 2nd and 3rd, a block and a half from the UN, we have some very nice eastward views.
So naturally, my very favorite thing to do here (aside from SubTalking on the computer) is to sit in our easternmost offices and watch the 7 train sweep majestically behind the giant Pepsi-Cola sign in Queens.
Now I could REALLY get behind a UN station.
Tudor city certainly pre-dates the U.N. There was a tunnel
on 42 st at the entrace on Second avenue for the crosstown
TARy. cars. Of course, when the Steinway tubes were constructed
there was nothing there, so there was no reason to make a stop.
Since Grand Central is two stops from the end of the line and
there are no layup facilities at Times Square, the frequency
of eastbound service is very closely tied to the westbound
at that location.
I believe that there is capacity to lay up two trains between the West end of the platforms and the lower level of the Eighth Avenue line (or maybe I'm thinking of the configuration of theWest end of the 14th Street line), but I concede your main point, that there certainly isn't enough for the capacity of the tubes to be different for more than a few minutes. MY main point, which I seem to have obscured by making a kidding suggestion that only the up-hill run would be slowed down, was that we need to know how close the 42nd Street tunnel is to running at capacity now before we can judge the effect of adding a station at 1st Avenue. If it does reach capacity, for how many hours each day? Anybody know?
Aren't the Steinway tubes the busiest two tracks in the system, basically? What two track line handles more passengers per hour? Those rush hour trains are awfully frequent - doubt they could put many more trains on that line...
The Lexington Ave. tracks are pretty packed during the rush hour. Stand at Atlantic Ave. at around 8 AM and you can count a train almost every 2 minutes, literally one behind the other.
Some published studies indicate that the 53rd street tunnel is the busiest two-track line in the New York system on a passenger basis. That is because the BMT-IND cars are bigger and can hold about 20% more people than the IRT-sized car.
I believe the 42nd Street line currently has the lowest headway (just about 2 minutes or 29-30 trains per hour) and would make it the busiest on a per train basis. It was also reported that in the past that 90 second headways (which means 40 trains per hour) were once operated, but current schedules don't show that.
The Lexington Avenue Line Express schedules indicate peak service of 24-24 trains per hour and this is about the same for the 53rd Street tunnel.
The Flushing line tracks extend all the way to the wall of the 42nd St. lower level. The Canarsie line tracks dead end at 8th Ave., and the bumper posts are at the western end of the station.
I think the reason is the station is too deap. Interestingly, once when I was riding a 7, a TA worker asked to be let off in the tunnel at 1st Avenue! I suspect there is an emergency exit there. The other reason may be that the UN is afraid of terrorism. Either way, I don't see it happening. I guess you just hafta walk the four blocks
If they ever build the Second Ave. line south of 63rd, then a First Ave. stop for the 7 with a connection to the new line would make sense.
Right now, the only connections to other lines would be with the east end of the L line's Third Ave. station, and the west end of the F's Second Ave. stop. There would be no crosstown connection for uptown passengers from the line, and no connection whatsoever for passengers coming in from Queens.
Of course, right now, just getting the Second Ave. line built above 63rd St. to link with the crossover to Broadway would be a major miracle.
[no connection whatsoever for passengers coming in from Queens.]
Not true. There is a provision in the 63rd St tunnel for service from Queens to the southern portion of 2nd Av.
The July 16 edition of the Chief/Leader reports that an OPEN COMPETITIVE exam for NYCT Train Operator will be held in January. The filing period will be in October. Application requirements haven't been released yet,though.....
I knew all along that something like this would occur!
KEEP ME POSTED, PLEEEEASE. Hey, I'm sorry, this has been a life long dream from the time I was a little. I'm excited, and if there no stipulations of who should apply, I will be there in person.
Damian"Stillwell"Stewart
TA's website in the employment section says that you can print applications on line if you have the Adobe Acrobat reader set up in the computer. Can I complete that and send it off as an application, or do I have to fill an application out Downtown at the Washington Street building?
the application via the website thru Adobe is usable. Print complete include money order for filling fee and voila!
I'm curious as to why the sudden change to go from a promotion only title to open competitive..
It is because the TWU refused to allow the TA to use a system of hand picking existing workers to fill train operator's positions rather than allowing the hiring of those who pass a multiple choice exam. The TA decided to run their system bypassing collective bargaining by putting out a promotional exam that only 32 passed. Then they went to DCAS, formerly the Department of Personnel and claimed that no one is passing the exams anymore and now they want people from the outside so they can bypass promotionals altogether. My guess is that the criteria will be the same of that by NYPD where you must have two years of college so that those who work at McDonalds today won't be my leader tomorrow. By the way a similar program was defeated in 1989 and I am putting all my force into defeating this proposal because I worked VERY hard into getting and keeping my brake handle and would hate to see anyone from the street getting this job without earning their keep as a conductor, bus operator, or other open competitive trade.
Have no fear Harold. Any one who doesn't REALLY want this job won't take it. In today's economy, someone with college could do much better on the out side. When they find out they will have to work nights, weekends and holidays for seven to ten years, they will think twice.
The college requirement will knock a lot of potential applicants out.
I prefer to look at the brighter side. Better educated people will raise the level of professionalism around here, and judging from places like PATH or LIRR, these people are usually union folk. They have options. They aren't dependent on the TA, so they won't be afraid of the TA.
Management: be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
I say we welcome the new off the street motormen! Just one caveat- they must be better trained than the current crop! They at least have the advantage of prior knowledge and experience to fall back on. These new guys will be from CCNY. We all know what that means.
I must disagree with the statement " Someone with a college degree will do better on the outside."
I have a four year Bachelor's degree- Education, Secondary Education with Biology and History as minor and did get my teaching certificate. I could not get a job as a teacher. I tried the private route- All I was told is "I see you have a college degree. You wont be happy here. Bye". (In Tennessee the certificate is good for 10 years after which it must be renewed by more school or by actually having taught for several years. I already had enough nails in my coffin- more school would have hurt me .
I have done better in civil service- 10 years with the federal Government and now with Transit. Sure I have to work weekends and holidays but not every employer will give you free transportation, free insurance including not only dental but vision. The federal government made you pay part of the insurance.
I am with Transit for the rest of my working career (plenty of years left!) Not every person can say that they are getting paid while enjoying their hobby! Of course, transdit does have a down side but what job does not have a down side. The Post Office can be fatal, fast food is no advancement. The feds have a problem called congress- I recall sitting home several days recently because there was no federal budget with no assurance of getting paid. Oh yes- the biggies worked and got paid!
Transit has advancement. Sure the feds had it too but in practice it was a lie-- They could pick anyone of the "best qualified". You could be the highest ranking candidate and they could pass you by if they did not like you.
To those that gripe- if transit is so bad, why do you stay? If I hated a job so much I'd find another job. My first job out of college I did hate and I did find another job.
I took the conductor test and expect to pass and be called. I enjoy transit- problems and all. The way to cvhange is asystem is from inside and one small step at a time.
Better climb off the soapbox now!the trains are calling!
Wow that a great story, but i went to college for one year and I have $$$$$ problem in college so i went to work for full time. I have took almost all the MTA test for 8 years and i pass 4 tests. Tomorrow im taking the MTA traffic checker in the morning and hope to pass it. I do not understand why the city need College Degree to get a job like NYPD?? But no body is not prefect and city are looking for angel, it is not easy to find angel. This is why i hate Mayor Giuliani because i don't trust him and i don't like his idea. That why i didn't vote for him for last two terms. Im a smart young guy and people alway telling im telligent and know what im doing. Any way i alway want to be a Train Operator since i was young and love riding on the subway.
Peace Out
Meaney
PS "if you don't understand this post??? than bother to read my post and go to next one.
I presume you'll vote for that no good Hillary for Senator.
You are 100% right! The T.A. is a great gig. But we cant let the bosses know this especially around CONTRACT time. For the next few months we must act like it sucks. Otherwise we get nothing! Till then Bitch and complain till it hurts.
I work for UPS. A college education was preferably required for those considering employment. It's the college kids that QUIT. Why should transit feel that hiring on people with college education to drive a TRAIN would make a difference. If you don't like the job someone else should be given a chance, not just someone with a college education. I'm going to take my chances and apply. By the way, when is the Filing period for the train operator exam?
Train Operator will give out on Oct 6 to 26 this year and the test will be on Jan 8, 2000. Im going to get it in first day giving out the form.
Peace Out
Meaney
Thank you!
As I write this, the promotional exam will be given in just a few hours. I hope it is fairer than the last one. Case in point: P wire has been out of our vocabulary for 10 years, yet on the test which only 32 passed there was at least 1 P Wire question. Now what would one of those guys/gals know about P wire? Most of them were probably in high school at the time! I can see it now: another unfair test, the TA says our current employees don't have the smarts to be train operators, so we'll change it to open competive (and make the test easy). Conspiracy theory?
One of the procewsses in Civil Service is the reviewing and protesting of questions (answers) on any Civil Service Exam. If a question is unfair and enough people protest, an adjustment is sometimes made.
Just an aside: Yesterday, I was looking through some racks of spare parts and came across ten FL-85 packages. For those who were not around during the P-wire era, these were the control units used on the R-46 that took the P-Wire signal and translated it to a command signal interpretted by the E-P Brake package.
Now for the trivia question that will not appear on the current train operator's exam: What was the designation for the analagous part used on the R-44? (Hint: LIRR M-1s use a component today with virtually the same designation)
Would it be RT5-C?
Ah, close - very close. The R-38s were the first cars to emerge from the SMEE era. They had the RT2 brake system. The primary difference being a load sensor instead of a variable load valve to sense the car's weight (all cars currently use a load sensor). The R-44s used the RT5 brake system but this was the designation of the entire system and not the electronic package that I was looking for. I'll post the answer tomorrow if nobody remembersit before!!!!
Another Hint: The R-44 used a G4B brake unit While the LIRR uses a G4 (odd) and G4A (even) brake pneumatic brake unit. I'm looking for the electronic control unit designation.
I passed that Jan 1998 promotion to Train Operator test my list number is 5, i've been in title of T/O since February 1999 and have been on the road for two months. I remember that test being overly technical more like for a Car Inspector or Train Service Supervisor.
Hell the Union and MTA weren't too cooperative for preperation classes which resulted in next to zero help period. AS for the P Wire question I can't clearly remember any reference to the device, I do remember something about the J14 relay...
The T.A. will save many millions by going O.C. They will start a new T/O with $13 hr and not pay medical benefits for 3 months. You know the union got big cash for allowing this to happen.
As it stands now the TA isn't paying into the health plan since a surplus of funds isn't required. When the contract was reopened this was agreed upon also since the pension fund was flying high from Wall St doing well TA isn't paying into NYCERS also. TA got a hell of a deal with the givebacks. Amazing how it sounds they hire/promote employees do a half assed or should I say WHOLE ASSeD way to train people when they mess up even in the smallest fashion get disciplined with such severity costing money to go through the entire process and yet complain that no one is available for cover for missing shifts costing overtime.
Train people correctly from the start and they'll perform better. The program of training they have now looks good on paper but in no way reflects reality.
Our union needs to step down and let the teir 4 members take over. We cant fight the T.A. with these people in our way. They are destroying this job (Willie's people). Members who speak out are target's by the T.A. and Willie"s union. It's hurts our families as well. This union has so much potential without this current leadership. They only care for themselves and who they can hook up with a job at the hall. We workers should demand what they allready have, (willie and reps) unlimited harrasment free sick, outstanding medical, dental, eyes- extra lump sum union pension- expense accounts (unlimited). I just hope we come out of this contract with the same things we walked in there with. But dont count on it.
look at the salaries and benefits of local 100 officers its rediculous in comparison to rank and file. If we are to stand as one to fight for a common goal(better salary and benfits, better working conditions) it shouldn't matter whether you're new Directions or Willie James. Management like the division and you be assured that James and team probably already know what the master plan TA has for US. He's taken cared of and so are his officers, why anyone believed he could have gotten us 20/50 if we reelected him is beyond me. sure he only had a partial term under his belt people felt he should be given a try then the contract was reopened without giving us a chance to voice our opinions. I hope folks remember that next time he's due for reelection.
The overwelming rejection of the $60.00 media tax should be viewed as a no confidence vote in his leadership.
his use of OUR money to pay for favors it seems is unjustified.
Other unions have tried the same ploy to plea to the public that their members are over worked and unpaid also flopped miserably. James tries to secures a high priced PR man without consulting the peole who would have to pay for this (us as usual). I notice our health benefit trust offices have moved probably to lower rent offices hopefully the space vacated wil rent for a substantial increase.
My own feeling is that the 20/50 pension was alot closer than most people believe. The plan was fiscally sound albiet with increased contributions. I think two factors caused it's downfall:
First - The number of people who would become immediately eligible to retire would have sent the NYCT into a tailspin. That number of specially qualified people could not be replaced over night. I think that there would have had to be, at the very least, a gradual phase-in of the 20/50 plan.
Second - I think that Willy James and his "racist" outburst where he referred to the MTA members and TA Brass as 'Meatballs" was shocking enough for Governor Pataki to rethink his support for the bill that Willy James had pinned so much of his own stature on. Clearly, Governor Pataki's reversal of position on this bill caught Wiley Willy by suprise and forced him to back-peddle and do much damage control in the face of this defeat. I firmly believe that if the TWU were to dump Willy James, after a reasonable time, the 20/50 pension would become law .
This weeks CHIEF states that race is a factor in test shifts! R.T.O. Chris Fox stated that "Its a way of lightening the load, and by lightening i dont mean weight". Yes people will take this test from all walks of life. No problem. But is our union out to exclude and discourage white females and males? Is this where were going in 2000? Why are they focusing on this issue and not real problem? Chris fox's statement is boarderline RACIST!! And the sad part about we fund them.
Mr. Fox is a appointed R.T.O. staff rep with about 3rd grade education making 75k year! It pay's to be stupid among other things!!!
Jim,you are damn right,they should of just come out and say that we don't want any more whites on the job,the 10% we have now is good enough.That statement by our union is pure racism,they should worry about the 2% raise we are going to be offered in Oct. instead of counting how many whites (the real minority in the T.A.) are on the job.They don't realize that the whites in Mabstoa vote them in all the time,if they knew that they may recant their statement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought this day and age we would be beyond this, but i guess Willie has another agenda!! I would hope it would be getting things done at 80 west end rather then waste money on a silly and racist law suit!! good luck vin--
It would seem that 'some' racism is acceptable in this society. I was rethinking some of my earlier thoughts on the issue of making the title of "train operator" an open competative title and at the same time, require (2) years of college.
After due consideration, I must say that making the title open competative is not a wise idea. I think that train operators, no matter how new to the job, should be very conversant with the way the system operates. You don't learn that in 75 days. On the other hand, what is wrong with requiring 2 years of college? Shouldn't we want better educated (not necessarilly smarter) people to fill the job if we can get them?
Then again, do we want CUNY students? After all 13th and 14th grade does not really qualify as college. I knew open enrollment would eventually come back and bite us in our collective asses. Well, I got to give this some more thought.
If train operators with a college background was a requirement, NYCT may be getting a more educated person and smarter one at that. But I think they would want to be treated like a person and not like a machine. Yes, I sometimes gripe here, but a more educated person would not appreciate some of the working conditions. I have a lunch period of 38 minutes, assuming I arrrive on time. But I don't have 38 minutes to sit and relax. Walk 10 car lengths, go to the toilet, wash hands (no soap or towels) get lunch out of locker (people steal), shove it down, be on train 2 minutes ahead. If I have an actual 20 minutes to eat I'm lucky. And don't think about going outside to buy your lunch, not enough time! Tuesday. because of a smoke condition at 42/6, I had all of 12 minutes for lunch. Enough time to do as above except shove it down, ate lunch in cab while operating! Next trip go out 24 minutes ahead due to supplement schedule (single track from Jamaica Van Wyck to Supthin). Once again all of 12 minutes between trips! When employees are treated like that, the TA doesn't deserve well educated train operators!
Bill, do you work midnights on the E? If so let me know the Job #.
all college will ensure from an off the street Train Operator is that some butt kissing brown noser will be hired. Hopefully to become something further up the ranks. Do they think they'll stand up to to ranking supervision? spend a few hundred thousand for college and work for say $50,000 a year and never have weekends or holidays off.
A few hundred thousand? My older son just completed his freshman year at Duke - one of the most expensive colleges in the nation - and if he chooses to go back (he's going to take a year off and may decide to go elsewhere) the total four year tab will be about $140K. Mary Baldwin College, where my younger daughter will be a senior this fall, will cost about $85K for four years. And both have received significant scholarship aid so the final amount from my pocket will be about $40K for my daughter - not sure about my son since he will forfeit one of his scholarships by taking the year off.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The fact that someone has attended college should not disqualify them from aspiring to a job that is less academically challanging. To assume that all college graduates are gonna be butt kissers is absurd. If anything, a person with 'more' education is less likely to blindly follow stupid instructions. Stop focusing on the negatives. If you are already a T/O and the title is upgraded, you'll be grandfathered in for any raises that come along. Besides, when was the last time you heard about a T/O making only $50,000?
Me, about 15 years ago.
to hire a college/tech grad with the potential to earn up to a six figure salary would want to move trains in the glamorous enviroment they run in would be proposterous. It would be a waste of time and money to hire and train someone who may not stay in the title once they've seen what they'll endure. Yes its negative but the truth is always hard to hear. An train operator hired off the street would start at minimum wage for the first two weeks i think it was. I think the lost wage to t/o is 20.40 pr hr.
I'm not saying a college educated person should be disqualified but to come into a title that would bore the daylights of that person is a waste of their academic career just to drive trains.
If most T/Os earn upwards of $50,000 per year, then most T/Os earn more than I do -- after four years of college, two years of grad school, and 14 years in the workforce. You can earn more than that in the private sector, but government pay for college grads is low (which might explain the performance of those who hold professional and managerial positions in the government).
True, you don't start as a T/O earning more than $50,000. But looking at the early years, one must consider the six years of lost earnings when I was in school. The jobs I held then paid the minimum wage or a little more, and were part time and summer only.
So for all the pissing and moaning, the fact is that TA train and bus operators earn as much as many college grads, and more than virtually all non-college grads. No wonder 100,000 people show up when the TA gives an exam. That's why, give backs and all, job actions would not be looked on kindly. All the TA would have to do is publish what people earn and most subway and bus riders would be ready to roast them on a spit. The wages would look low to the elite of law, media, and finance, but those people don't feel particularly bad about the rest of us earning less than we do. To everyone else, the wages and benefits will seem high.
So the TA could require college, but why? Does that really capture the characteristics the TA needs? I doubt it. Besides, without the brain challenge motivation one gets in City Planning, for example, one would end up recruiting the bottom of the barrel among those who manage to slide through college.
To the extent possible in a unionized-civil servant situation, the TA would be better off recruiting the best people who do not happen to have academic abilities, and do not go to college.
I don't think T/O need College Dergee and doesn't make any sence to me because i know College grads people doesn't like to get dirty, work at night, work on the weekends or holiday on the job. But i believe the T/O should be only promotion from conductor and from other MTA titles.
Peace Out
Meaney
Hate to burst your bubble, but one thing that a lot of us college grads would like is a job with a regular schedule. It's not all 9-5 by a long shot. I'm in the office by 7:30 in the morning, don't leave until 6 PM many nights, and am on call 24x7. I can count on the phone ringing in the middle of the night at least twice a week and at least twice a day on Saturday and Sunday - more if I've got people doing a network upgrade. Vacation? Fuhgeddaboutit. Even when I do get away to see my grandson, the cell phone will ring at all hours and once they tracked me down on the plane. Those of you with the so-called blue collar jobs can at least call your time your own once you leave the job. I can't.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, some bosses and jobs can really make life hell. So far I've avoided getting stuck with worse than a beeper and hope to continue to do so. Still, I work all odd hours--planning a vacation is "interesting."
People really have no concept of others' jobs if they haven't worked them. I've heard a lot of people envy the money LIRR operating personnel make, but they don't know that one of the downsides of the job is that the RR practically owns you.
My concern with the college-T/O requirement is that it seems to me to be yet another example of slapping on a job requirement without a coherent connection between education, experience, competence and the demands of the job. Blindly requiring 60 college credits (in what discipline?) for a T/O position seems to me like a lazy management's way of improving a workforce.
I've noticed that in the computing field, hiring practices seem to be going the other way--looking for specific experience or specialized certifications instead of generalized educational levels. When I was studying for my CNE (network) certification one of the other fellows in my class told me he was getting it because his new employer demanded it. And he was (literally) a rocket scientist with a Master's in Computer Science.
[My concern with the college-T/O requirement is that it seems to me to be yet another example of slapping on a job requirement without a coherent connection between education, experience,competence and the demands of the job. Blindly requiring 60 college credits (in what discipline?) for a T/O position seems to me like a lazy management's way of improving a workforce.]
Lazy management is exactly what it is. Many employers and others have come to believe that requiring a college education is a low-budget way of screening out people who might have bad attitudes and prove to be discipline problems on the job. In other words, possession of a college diploma is seen as showing that one is not a "bad person." It goes without saying that this is a ridiculous viewpoint. Holding a college diploma means only that Mom and Dad were willing to cough up tens of thousands of dollars. But employers don't always see things that way.
SOunds like Gattaca is really about to happen!
So you think that working here will give you a schedule you can bank on? Sitting on the extra board for six hour, then being called for a midnight job on the A. At least you start at 7:30. Some down here only get two days notice when they start. Vacation. Fuhgeddaboutit. Two weeks to start after one year. It took me thirteen years to get the holiday weeks for time with my family. Anyone can call their time their own once they leave the job. When the South Channel Bridge is stuck open with you on the side opposite your clear, you aint going home today!
As A T/O you will not have steady Schedule for at least 4 Years after taking the job. When I and every other T/O got on the job you where Extra Extra. Meaning you can be assigned to any Terminal in your Division at any time. I will share alittle how my first few years on the jobs was. My first day was on the No.2 Line with a 5PM report at Flatbush and didn't clear intil 3AM at Flatbush. Day 2 2PM report at Westchester Yard to put in a train and do 3 trips out of Pelham. Then they gave me 3 trips on the No.4 Line the next day. 2 Express to Utica and one to New Lots Express down all local Uptown. Then after 3 years I was finally able to do RDO Relief. RDO mean Regular day off so you cover the job while the Regular T/O is off. Then other year passed and I finally got my own assignment with Tuesday and Wednesday's off. I have been a T/O for 10 Year and this is only my 3th time getting Sunday and Mondays off on the AM Shift. But I can't pick any Holidays off yet unless I work PM'S.
Let's please not make generalizations about this college degree thing. I have a college degree (actually, two), and I like getting dirty and operating trains (and buses). In fact, I spent two years out of college as Safety Director of a school bus company, doing mostly driver training -- it was one of the best jobs I ever had. People have different likes and dislikes, and we here on SubTalk should respect them!
I agree except M.A.B.S.T.O.A. employees should be prohibited from taking the test.
Your sentiments express the primary reason why I voted against the $60.00 Willie James Media Tax: how can I get an unsympathetic ridership on my side for a raise when a good portion of that ridership makes a hell of a lot less than I do? But with that said: does that ridership have 5 1/2% per week taken out of their take home pay like us for pension? Thanks to our contributions, the pension plan is making money. And Pataki refuses to sign pension reform. The TA screams poverty whenever it is contract time. We even gave up a negotiated raise within the time frame of this current contract. Then the TA has close to a $3 million surplus a week after the contract wage freeze was signed.. The TA cannot be trusted. They gave the abolishment of 2 fare zones to the riders. We are giving more productivity, we are carrying more passengers every year. The primary reason I think we deserve a substantial raise: it is a very responsible job. The safety of thousands of people a day rests in my 2 hands daily. I and my colleagues should be well compensated for this. We are not making six figure salaries! I am afraid to drink a beer on my days off because if they call me for a random as soon as I return to work after my RDO's, the alcohol may or may not be out of my system. I expect absolutely no public support for any kind or raise. The public feels "As long as I get a better raise than him, "him" deserves nothing, I have a responsible job, not "Him". Actually, there should be no fare, it should be a tax payer supported service like police, fire, and sanitation, then maybe the public wouldn't be so hung up about how much money we are making! After all, they know that the price of the fare has a lot to do with our salary. They couldn't care less if workfare people were operating the trains, this way they can decrease the fare, as long as the public got to where they were going, they wouldn't care who was operating the trains, till some problem arises which would delay their commute.
Dear Bill & other T/O who responded here, thanks for thoughtful/civil comments !
Re: raise due productivity improvements, TA surplus, care of thousands a day ... sounds reasonable to me.
Re: Drinking beer on your day off. Well I'm a (part time) BAT man "Breath & Alcohol Tester", i.e. it's not my primary job, but we're a small co. so we all ware a lot of hats. Not to worry, just don't burp, seriously it tests air from your lungs vs. what might be left in your stomach. The test is for folks who come in with a buzz or have a liquid lunch. Now controlled substance is another matter. Have a joint & a week later you'll still show up positive !
Re: 5 1/2 % for pension. I was with Pan Am for 15 years, they didn't put a nickle in any account anywhere. Fortunately the US Gov. will give me something, but the amount is frozen at 1982, no interest, no COL, no nothing. That money you put in is yours & growing ... maybe you'ld like to have some of it now to spend, but Local 100 can't take it away from you.
Mr Man-E-Hats
Bill you said it well!!!
The argument I presented -- relative pay -- is the argument that could be used against the TWU in the event of a job action. Public anger could be turned against the employees, rather than management. The Daily News could, and would, be brutal.
Without a job action, and with the promise of higher productivity, I disagree that there would be no public support for a raise. Just contrast the union givebacks and job losses with the fare bonuses. It would be easy to argue that TA workers should "catch up" to inflation. It would be poor management not to reward the employees for the improvements to the system over the years. Of course, poor management is the TA way.
I agree, however, that the time for a raise is now, while the TA is in surplus. The public might accept higher fares for higher wages in a boom, when they are doing well. In practice, when the economy is up ridership and dedicated MTA tax revenues are also up, so a raise is possible without a fare increase. And when the economy is down and people are hurting, they are in no mood for a higher fare.
A big one-time "signing" bonus at the conclusion of the contract, using some of the surplus money, is a possibility.
There have been numerous postings here 'explaining' why college education should not be required for the T/O title. For one, I can not see why there is so much concern. Right now, to be a train operator, we require that the candidate be a conductor, a cleaner or a station agent. I'd like to know how the latter two are any more relavent to driving a train than college is.
That's a TWU thing it goes to senority. I worked in a place where the TWU made a different deal. You got premium pay for job qualifications, so you could work in the electronics shop if you could pass the test. We got a lot of junior guys out of the service that could pass the test. When layoffs started (I worked for an airline) they couldn't get bumped by the average joe, even with 20 years. It was good for the company because they were able to keep highly trained guys in the shops. When layoffs weren't the problem other guys & gails could go to school, get the skills, & skip ahead of a lot of others to get in those shops for great pay.
In the NYC subways & buses you come in as a cleaner & do other low level/low pay jobs until you have enough senority to bid for T/O. That's not the way to get the best tallent.
Mr t__:^)
At this moment there were no previous requirements for the OC T/O exam posted in The Chief which begins filing in October. I've got a question... why all the recent bitching/bashing about Train Operator? what happened recently that i've missed?. Plenty of Train Ops do a fine job and a damn good one at that so I dont see the revelance of all the stupidity posted on this board. If anyone is bitching because their ride was untimely look to your fellow riders.
Slow trains don't occur because a train operator wants to drive slowly there are plenty of trains ahead which occupy the same tracks. Track maintenance and other projects which slow trains down are to prevent unsafe conditions and to keep the system safe. Wanna be train operators beware it may look jolly as trains enter stations and run from station to station but you've got up to 2000 passengers on your train millions of dollars worth of equipment beneath and behind you don't think its just an 8 hour day, when the railroad blows up and your now working 12/13 hours and you have things to do after work forget about them since the "Good of the Service" comes before all else. Your kids have a cold your spouse isn't feeling well, the TA doesn't give a crap about them YOU the employee moving that train, opening/closing doors, selling those tokens/cards cleaning stations is all they worry about...
As for me, I'm opting out of this discussion. It seems emotion has replaced reason. You are assuming that I (we) are criticizing train operators when nothing could be farther from the truth. I think that the vast majority of T/Os do a great job. Having said that, I see nothing wrong with replacing 'selling metro-cards' or 'sweeping and mopping' with 2 years of college as a requirement. It's not racist. it's not elitist, it's not unreasonable. Now if someone can make a case for a person being more qualified to drive a train because he or she can mop one, I'd love to hear it because if this is the case then almost every housewife should be equally qualified.
The latest Station Agent requirements for an exam given about 1 1/2 years ago included at least 6 months of customer service and people were interviewed before they were hired. Has anyone seen a raise in improved customer service? The WEP cleaners who are now on the property will evenutally have a chance for employment as cleaners on TA payroll without taking a civil service exam. So what would 2 years of college have to equate putting a train in motion?
This is not personal, rather a critique of the situation at hand. There's been enough trouble on the site recently and there doesn't need to be anymore.
Does anyone here have a problem with college people becoming train operators? I for one was in college, graduating last May as a matter of fact with a Bachelor's Degree in Education. I probably should have gone into teaching, but you know what, I'm not happy with it! So what about Transit? I want to put my foot in the door in whatever way I can. With a degree, I can move up through the ranks and I can make more money. That's the way it should be, because I worked hard to be somebody in life. The T/O job is not ideal for everyone. I'd guess you have to be willing to get your hands dirty. Just to let everyone know, I'm willing to do it. Let me also emphasize though, that in employment EVERYONE should be entitled to the same opportunities, college or not. You can still be hard working and not have a college degree.
The issue of the T/O exam being open competitive has a struck a nerve with me. While you gentlemen may have objections to the exam being open competitive, I for one favor it. There are many more options for me, in terms of searching for the ideal job. Being a T/O is something that I would like to do. This is my hobby, so why can't I make it into a career?
There's no reason for anyone to feel troubled by the fact that some may get the T/O job without working as a conductor or a cleaner. What you need to do is not feel like that. At least in your career, you achieved something that others couldn't achieve - you worked your way to the top. Give yourseleves a pat on the back.
Has the quality of the T/O job been degraded? This is a tough question in my opinion. You need people who can perform their duties, not ones who can't. While experience in Transit may be an issue, it's not impossible for people with no prior experience in Transit to learn the art of operating a 10 car train of B Division 60 footers.
All I can say is that even with my four year degree, I could probably have chosen to do something other than being in Transit. I, however, have chosen this path, and I intend on filing for the exam in October. Best luck to all taking the open competitive exam.
Thanks,
Stef
I agree that everyone should be giving the opportunity to take this test. It's not that a college level person can't drive a train, no. It's that this needing amount of time in college as a requirement to drive a train got me. Some positions in the TA WILL require some prior experience in college or in the field your applying for, but not to drive a train. It's open competitve, everyone, including those with a college education, should be giving the opportunity to take the exam in January. And whoever in the ranks score the higest score on the exam, should be called. I too plan on filing for the test.
I work at UPS, so getting dirty is nothing new to me.
I have an education degree myself; however, I left that field almost 12 years ago and have never looked back.
Bravo Stef, We agree on this one. I know one conductor who was a doctor, an MD, before. Is he a better conductor? Maybe, but not because of his education, that's irrelevant. It's his dedication, the love of the job. How do we quantify that? I know the current civil service system can't, and it doesn't work. So I'm for anything that addresses this. Read my post. It was in response to Steve's "Is pointing enough?"
Chances are this train operator test will be a lottery.
(Relevance of conductor or cleaner to T/O). Hopefully reliability is one of the criteria for the promotion, along with the safety record. If those who do not show up on time all the time, or who do not follow all the rules, are getting promoted, then that's stupid. But if rule following and attendence are criteria, then experience lets the TA see who is dedicated to the job and who is not before they are moved to such a critical position.
If the TA is willing to assume that you can't get through college without following rules, showing up, and being dedicated, then I guess a college diploma is a substitute for on-site experience. But it doesn't offer anything more. And, there are plenty of people with bad attitudes who slide through college with low grades because they are bright. There were guys at Colgate who missed all their early classes because they were hungover from partying the night before, but got out with Cs and Ds. Is that who you want driving 1,500 people.
Since many promotions come thru the ranks, maybe by having train operators with 2 years of college, the supervisory positions (TSS,Dispatcher, for example) may have a higher level of professionalism than now. I am not at all saying one can't have a high level of professionalism if he/she didn't go to college, but let's face it, some supervisors (very small minority) just happened to have guessed the right answers on the promotional exam, have nil skills at dealing with people and personalities and don't have a clue on how to run a railroad.
Here in Chicago(CTA) supervisors and instructors are in the same union(ATU308) with their subordinates. Is this also the case with TWU 100?
Glad to see we have another friend in Chicago .... Welcome !
At this bus depot the drivers, machanics & dispatchers are all in Local 100, but different sub-groups. There are just two suits on the road over them, and only three more in the office incl. one VP, so the union folks largely run the Transportation dept. In maint. there are quite a few forman & bosses.
Mr t__:^)
Hi Thurston, which garage do you drive out of? I am a Motorman(operator) out of Howard on Skokie Swift(yellow) run 594, hense my name.
Supervisors are part of the SSSA(Subway Surface Supervisor Association)
The idea of having supervisors and subordinates in the same union is rediculous. I absolutely can not believe that a situation like this exists in this country in this day and age. When there is a disciplinary case, who does the union represent, the supervisory member or the hourly member.
Yo're right, it is ridiculous. supervisors can write up subordinates, but subordinates can't write up supervisors(management). Here in Chicago we are both in the same union. During our transition to OPTO, the supervisors and instructors who supposedly are our union brothers and sisters made the transition easier, showing their alligence with management and not the union. Not to mention weak ATU308 union leadership.
Let's hope they represent whoever's right.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[On the other hand, what is wrong with requiring 2 years of college? Shouldn't we want better educated (not necessarilly smarter) people to fill the job if we can get them?] vs. exclusion of whites ....
I think the problem with folks that go to college is that they don't want to get dirty when they get out. You find this same problem in factories and other proffesional trades, e.g. auto mech., plumber, brick layer, etc. It's as if you do that if you either don't want to go to college or flunk out there. Take the Nurseing industry, college for them is now four years (was two year degree) & they don't get any hands on experience there. The commercial says ask for a real nurse, but she doesn't have the experience of the staff under her A-N-D doesn't realy want to get dirty anyhow (she would rather sit at the desk and do paperwork).
I've been a suit before, now I get dirty every day and like it better even though I'm a "Manager". I also have fond memories of being a shop steward ... I was good at getting mngt. made at me, but not giving them enough to do anything about it.
To my white friends ... get dirty: you do your job & go home satisfied (evey day I feel that I earned my pay) & won't get an ulcer either.
Mr t__:^)
(Requiring college for train operators?)
What would a person learn in college that he or she would use while operating a train? To drive a train you have to show up on time, keep your concentration, and follow some rules. All a college requirement would be is credentialism, based on an assumption that anyone with any reliability would end up in college. We require college not because we need college but because college is where we teach what should have been learned in high school. Better to require high school, and have a test that shows the actual ability to do a few basic things.
[to drive a train you have to show up on time, keep your concentration and follow some rules]
All of which are things that are **NOT** necessary in college!!
Really, college teaches you certain things. But a diploma is unfortunately used as a proxy for overall intellegence, which it isn't. I have a brother-in-law who is a bright guy but couldn't hack it in college and left after less than a year, but would probably be great at the TA, because he has technical ability. He went to work for the phone company, and is doing great as a supervisor managing communications equipment I couldn't possibly understand. A diploma in urban economics wouldn't help at Bell Atlantic, or in a T.A. shop.
As for management, its a gift unto itself that I don't claim to have, and that is very different from doing the job. My wife is doing some of that messy people stuff now (ugh). In government agencies, the tendency is to promote people who understand the work to managment, where they botch the workflow and labor relations issues. College isn't really the key there either, and neither is hands on experience. Superviors shouldn't be unionized or permanent.
College and the military have the side benifit of maturing a person.
As Larry well knows it's much more then a re-hash of high school stuff that you weren't paying attention to the first time. You're away from mom & dad and end up being an adult when you come out the other end. The only bad thing it teaches you is that you can make the same or more money pushing papers as sweating in the sun & getting dirty.
S-o-o-o-o maybe the TA should only hire GIs ?????
They're mature and now how to follow orders ?????
Mr t__:^)
(Only hire GI's?) Anything can stand in for personal characteristics that are difficult to measure on an individual basis. College? Race? Military? But that's what discrimination is. The best way to measure employees is to hire them and if they don't measure up, fire them. In public service, however, it's difficult to get rid of anyone once they are hired.
If you want a cheap an easy way to measure a willingness to work hard and care about the job, and being happy (rather than feeling cheated) with a standard of living that would be envy of most of the world now and thoughout history, how about only hiring recent immigrants? Aside from college gradutates, that's what the private sector seems to prefer. Imagine the public response to such a policy!
I love a good debate !
While none of us is going to treat your "hire recent immigrants" comment seriously, it does make you think.
To change the direction of this thread a little ... we can't blame it all on the type of employee that is hired. Look at the military example again. During Boot Camp the recurits are pumped up and come out all full of piss & vineger (i.e. highly motivated & proud to be in their respective branch of the service), then they go to work ... does this strike a cord with anyone ?
So, could they raise the bar and still hire the quotas, I think so.
Does management need more charm school training (ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP), it would appear the answer here is yes too. Are guys like our friends Steve & Jeff the exception or is it that too much is made of the mngt rotten apples ????
Mr t__:-D... that's a BIG smilie
Thank you, Thurston, for the complientary remarks. However, do not judge me as a manager by my on-line personna (such that it is). I can be very demanding and rigid. It's said that I would take my grandmother out of service if she screwed up. I might not but I would likely have her written up. Seriously, there's at least one member of our 'Subtalk' family who has seen soryt of my darker side(although the subject of my wrath was not removed from service until after my 'Subtalk' friend had left.
Getting back to your prior post in this thread related to 'only hiring veterans'. Currentlyu Civil Service law provides for giving veterans preference in hiring......
Did anyone hear anything about conductors education requirements or experience for future tests? A buzz is going around the system!!
WHOA THURSTON - I HAVE NO PROBLEM BEING QUOTED BUT PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH. I DID NOT SAY VS EXCLUSION OF WHITES
As for people going to college not wanting to get dirty, I have considerably more than 4 years of college and I think my wife will be only too happy to tell you how many shirts and pairs of jeans I've ruined this year alone at work. I do not think that education alone determines how one does his job. I think it also involves dedication. If in the course of my managerial duties (as happened this morning) I have to go to the roadbed and get dirty, I have no problem with it. I never did from the time I was an RCI to the present.
BTW - My degree in in the social sciences with a mior in secondary school ed. (among others)
[On the other hand, what is wrong with requiring 2 years of college? Shouldn't we want better educated (not necessarilly smarter) people to fill the job if we can get them?] vs. exclusion of whites ....
Sorry Steve for the miss-understanding, but notice that the "vs. exclusion of whites ..." remark is outside your quote that I coppied.
I was refering to Jim (who you responed to) who said:
"unions out to exclude & discourge white male & female"
(I lifted Jim's remarks out of contex, so everyone please don't missunderstand that I implying something else)
In reply to your "As for people going to college not wanting to get dirty ..." This writer also has a 4 year degree, I think it was in procrastination since it took me a very long time at night. I too like it better getting dirty then networking colleagues all day, i.e. bull ****ting.
Reminder, my signature always has a smilie face, because you can't look me in the eye & tell that I don't intend it in a mean way.
Mr t__;-) ... that's a wink.
Guys-- before this degenerates into a flame war I think no matter what the circumstances accusing people of being racist does not belong on SubTalk. Please take the internal unionism to some other discussion arena...
I don't know where you are getting this Mis-information. But our contract provides for predetermined pay scales. Newly hired Train Operators would be paid the same as newly promoted ones now. Legaly they would have to be provided with the same health benifits as we get when we are hired.
I agree with the postings about our current union leadership, but I say stop complaining and get involved.
I go to the Conductors division meetings religiously every month. I see the same dirty dozen every time. Where are you? The United Motormen chairman tells me his meetings are the same.
There's more people in RTO, than in all of MaBSTOA. Yet they control the union. Why? Because they VOTE! 40 % of RTO doesn't vote at all! So if your'e mad, then get mad at your self and your fellow members. Dont whine, GET ORGANIZED!
Erik (shop steward- Local 100 TWU)
i agree that if ever employee would get involved instead of just bitching something would definetly be done.
Personally I passed the exam than hardly anyone passed my grade was 80 or was it 81 and list nummber of 5 and have been out of school car for two months. I too feel that having my foot in the door from RAILROAD CLERk to Conductor to Train Operator now to have it open to anyone off the street is a slap in the face. I don't see why they even bothered with prep classed since I heard this exam was so easy. Since so many provisional Train Operators and also TSS had their titles on the line did you think they would have made this a hard test like the Train Oper. test of Jan 1998? I don't think so since so much money was spent to train these people just to have them fail....lets see for the January 98 promotion to T/O test there was a professor from BMCC giving classes on 6th grade math in November and then in the first two weeks of Jan 1998 TSS Brown at the union hall gave four classed two weeks before the exam. SOME A**hole motor instructor who made the test up should be hung by his b---s for making up such an exam. It has nothing to do with people not capable of passing the test but management won't admit that it was their fault there was no planning and preperation for that exam why hasn't that fact been shouted out in any crew rooms?
This was all a plan. Make the test almost impossible then run to D.C.A.S. and complain that we cant get any of our people promoted, lets go O.C. with it. Millions $ Saved, Big cash reward for T.A. and some top Union willie lackies. New train operators will take 5 years top pay and start with $14 hourly.
Like i've always said there was next to no cooperation with preperation classes for the exam(let me correct myself there was NO preperation). I'm sure plenty of people will apply for the exam some will pass, plenty will fail the medical exam for drugs or something. the next bunch woould have a heart attack walking along electrified third rail, walking the structure isn't bad but what about in tunnels and finding all those nice RATS and homeless. The odor in the tunnels walking out to pick up your train on the layup or if your train brakes down ...
better yet the 12-9(man under) after the person leaps in front of your train, of course if it hasn't goone into emergency you'll have to put it into emergency. Notify Control your conductor and customers secure your train and walk slong your train and check to see if the person is alive or not. um um um sounds like A nice cushy job huh? now your taken oout of service questioned like a criminal and have to PEE in a cup...
its not a job for wimps!
When one of these off the street train operators get into an incident and gets booted backed to the street, i sure dont want to be near jay street. And i hope they can get their previous jobs back. Good LUCK!
I guess when that former T/O hired off the street gets into to **** and they are fired will they go postal? I'm suprised no employees have gone off and killed someone opps i forgot about an incident around 5-6 years ago when a track supervisor and a track worker got into some kinda argument that another employee also a track worker not involved in the fracas got killed and the supervisor was only injured. keep up with the bs and i'm sure someting at Jay St.
Yes that happened outside 240 Yard. As the story goes he was made fun of everyday and decided not to take it anymore.
The trackworker who was killed, His wife and I worked together at 57th St in the booth together. I know she said her husband also worked for transit and read the paper but didn't make the connection til i returned from my rdo. The shame of it was he was an innocent bystander took two bullets and was killed, the supervisor I heard took several and survived...
This issue came up today and may help you see things in a different light. While checking the Automated Time Keeping System today I discovered that 12 employees (all cleaners) were given the day off, with pay (Civil Service Law) to take the T/O exam. Of the 12 3 were on probation (less than 1 year in title). One of them was a female CTA who has has over 2,800 hours of Sick Without Pay in the last 2 years. To put that in perspective, we work on the basis of 2,080 hours per year. She is permanently restricted because of numerous health problems including asthma and morbid obesity, yet she took the exam. And if she passes? Should she get the job? Would you say she's worked her way up the ladder? (No jokes about the ladder holding her either)
so your point is this individual had no right what so ever to take the exam?
Most of the time rumors within the T.A. become a reality. New train operators will need some collage or operating experience to be hired. OK! Now would it be cost effective to hire the majority of T/O's from the street at $14hr. rather promoting a worker at $21-22hr. By next contract our union could extend top pay till 5 years (another rumor). The T.A. makes out big with O.C. T/O's. Will they share that with the workers, or will they claim they have no money. Also will our leadership buy it AGAIN!!
would someone who has invested time and money in college take the exam for Train Operaor open competitive possibly? however the salary/benefits and working conditions wouldn't adequately compensate for the degree they've earned. Maybe for Superintendent in what ever capacity(General/Line or what exists) but not for train operator. Dirty trains and crew rooms, track and roadway greasy grimey humid hot or cold and icey I couldn't see someone from Harvard or Columbia U. even breaking a sweat with the thought of train operator under their belt.
True the higher ups in transit feel that entry level now must include college Common sense (and everyone has that) is all that seems necessary.
This is not a job that requires a college education. And I feel it is unfair to just limit it to people that has a college level education. I am even surprised that transit is even opening an exam to the public,that in the past was solely a promotion job for TA workers only. On the other hand I will not hire any average Joe off the street. But since this is "Open Competitve Exam", all should be given an opportunity, not just college level persons.
its an Insult for motormen/women that TA would have an OC T/O exam I don't hear James and team sticking up for us..
WHY would someone have to have a college education to DRIVE a TRAIN? Not to say he was right for doing this, he was definitely WRONG, but a 16 year old high school kid took a Train making it's normal stops. He was doing pretty good, until he ran a red light. My point is it doesn't take some college scholar to operate a train. I don't have a college education, but I'm am willing to apply for the exam anyway because this is something I would love to do. Most college people want cushy jobs, wearing suits, eating the finest foods, and living the lavish life. And they don't want to work weekends. Definitely not fitting the criteria of a train operator.
I do not think that you need a college education to drive a subway train. I don't agree that it's as easy as you make it sound. The fact that you can move it from point A to point B does not mean that you can operate properly.
Old-time motormen (and conductors) had a working knowledge of the mechanical end of things. They knew how and why things worked. Today, the vast majority of the train crews have no idea what happens when they move the master controller handle or push the MDC buttons.
I think there are more important issues that the TA is attempting to address by this initiative. It is the issue of employee availability. When the TA opened the title of train operator to CTAs, they found that some people coming from those titles did not have the work ethic necessary to support the goals of RTO's employee availability. It is believed that the more educated a person is, the more likely he/she is to come to work on a more regular basis. I also think that being college educated, the prospective motorman would tend to have a more intuitive and insightful way of approaching the job.
I see in the Chief the notice of an open competitive Train Operator exam yet no requirements for the title were listed. I'm sure before the filing period opens there will be some requirements for the applicant.
as for "I think that being college educated, the prospective motorman would tend to have a more intuitive and insightful way of approaching the job"
I've never completed college but currently am a motorman, My belief is to report to work when scheduled and do what i'm supposed to do. My work ethic is to operate safely and as efficicently as possible as for other employees well thats up to the individual. However a college or technical background for the title of Train Operator is not a requirement i can't see why it should have to become one.
AS for employees who abuse sick time or compsensation it makes the job harder on everyone.
I agree completely.
[However a college or technical background for the title of Train Operator is not a requirement i can't see why it should have to become one.]
Based on what I've seen in 15+ years in the working world, I believe that a high percentage of the jobs - in the private as well as public sector - which require college degrees don't really need to do so. Some people will say that spending four years and tens of thousands of dollars in Mom's and Dad's money to study history or sociology or stuff like that will make one a "better" person. Sorry, I don't buy that.
Will it make a person better qualified for a job? Not necessarily. Will it enable them to do learn their job skills more quickly? Probably, especially those involving interpersonal relations. Will it make them a better person in the long run? I believe so. My job is far removed from the subjects I studied in college but the skills I learned many years ago - dealing with professors (real world translation: the boss) and my fellow students (real world translation: co-workers) and even, when I taught as a grad student, my students (real world translation: employees) have certainly made it easier for me to do my job today. And the diversity of material that I studied in college has enabled me to view the world from a broader perspective, to teach my children about a variety of things, and to understand their interests better than I would have otherwise.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"An educated consumer is our best customer". Heard that slogan before? Having an education is very important but is not everything. Having been hired for a railroad once in my life I have no more than a GED and still passed my PC and rules exams so maybe I ain't so dumb after all, except for coming back to the TA. I have been working at the TA since after high school with no safety violations and one re-instruction and am a shop steward myself. I agree with Steve that hands on training is the best way to forward one's goals. In the case of railroading one must have a great memory and not necessarily a degree. In the TA the training stinks in the case of the 75 dat training program. Perhaps an aptitude test before hiring is all that the doctor ordered. Didn't Jeffery Dommer have a college degree?
Dahmer may have - I don't know - but nut cases can and do occur in all ranks. But, as a general rule, statistics show that educated people are less likely to go off the deep end - the exception to that being those people with multiple advanced degrees, who show an alarming tendency to go bonkers. (The theory there is that those people who continue their pursuit of higher education beyond what is normally required for their chosen profession are usually doing so because they fear society - in other words, because they're nuts in the first place.) Educated people, as a rule, are more conditioned to acceptable social behavior (by virtue of the additional four or more years in school) than those who don't have the benefit of education. This is not to say that people without a formal education are characteristically anti-social - far from it! Most people, regardless of the amount of education they have, are good, decent people. The percentage of lunatics is extremely small regardless of where on the educational spectrum a person is. But as a rule, the more education, the less anti-social behavior.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're right. At the same token, I'm willing to learn how to operate a train properly. I didn't mean to say that it was an easy job, because there is more involved in just moving gears, and applying brakes. Being a train operator like yourself, you have to be focus alert, and willing to be available for work. I think the person that has limited knowledge of how to operate equipment, and is willing to learn how to do it effectively should be considered also. It's just an opinion of mine
No! Although I have not heard from 'Human Resourses' yet about whether this individual is or not, I think it is a travesty that this person was paid over $130.00 in tax-payer money, sans benifits, to take a civil service exam for a title which she will never qualify for and has not got the physical ability to perform. One of her restrictions is 'limited stair climbing'. How would she climb onto and off a train in a yard or in a tunnel? Keep in mind, this person has been out sick 2800 hours out of 4160 in 2 years. take off 104 RDOs and you have 66 days maximum worked. Take away holidays, vacation and sick with pay and in 2 years this employee has worked just 31 days. Despite this, she is holding a job that an able-bodied person could fill. DO you think that a person with this record should be entitled to take a civil service exam....???
So in your opinion IF an employee were to take an promotional exam WHo was physically qualified for the position & the perfect employee in performance of duties and attendance were just to take the test to have the day off and get PAID according to CIVIL SERVICE LAW, posibily never intends to take the title when offered.
what would your opinion be of this individual?
yes they have every right to take the exam. I haven't read the New York State and or City civil service law to make an educated decision about this matter. I have filed for Tower operator several times and never taken the exam since i felt I wasn't prepared to take the exam. Why would I waste my time taking an exam that I haven't studied/prepared for? My Attendence and operating record with the Transit Authority is above satisfactory. I'm able bodied and physically capable to perform any task that lies ahead of me, If I were to take the test to have the day off would I fall into that category too? I think not. I think it is also a travesty with the person you describe but this person is entitled to the same rights as anyone.
"I think it is also a travesty with the person you describe but this person is entitled to the same rights as anyone."
Are you sure that the person IS entitled to take the exam and get the day off with pay? Labor Relations/Human Resources is not so sure. Likely it will be deemed that this employee should get paid but I can assure you that it will never happen again. As a restricted duty employee, we assign tour and RDOs. This employee will have Friday/Saturday or Sat/Sun RDOs for the next test. Such employees may be entitled to it(technically) but it sticks in my craw.
My belief is that Labor Relations/Human resources should get their head outta their asses!
I suppose that this means that you either agree with me or disagree with me.
Sadly, if this person cannot perform the duties she has now, and has been out sick at the indicated rate, she should be looking at applying for some sort of disability relief, not a more physically demanding job. Holding a job you are not able to perform in and collecting pay for not working is FRAUD, nothing less. There is a difference between a legitimate illness making you unable to work for some period of time, and a chronic condition which makes you unsuitable for the job you hold. Sadly, the tax and fare payers of New York City are footing the bill for this, and the result is poorer service and increased costs. (Not to mention those people who are doing their jobs should be insulted)
Gerry
I think the question should be more along the lines of 'Can this person handle the responsibility?' Or, 'Is this person competant enough to handle the job?' Or, 'Will her health problems prevent her from doing her job well?'
-Hank
Sounds like she took the exam only to get the sat off.
how many employees are guilty of doing the same thing? fit or not for any particular title?
Nice to know anyone off the boat can be running our subway trains. When lots of us T/O or Motorman worked to get our Brake Handles. I was a Trackman and waited 2 years to get into that cab and its just being handed to outsiders! Next thing you know WEP'S will be our next C/R'S or T/O. Why stop there lets have Open Compettive Train Service Supervisors.
Why is every so afraid? This is the way it's done on the railroads. And yes they hire roadforemen (like our T.S.S) from out side.
i'll second that!!!
Good Day
Does anyone out there in Subway Land have an updated roster ,reflecting the latest series of rolling stock changes
Fleet Numbers,,Date-needed ,,Mfgr,,Model Number
Thank you for your assistance,,
Steve
Are they going to keep weekend express service on the A in Brooklyn even when the Williamsburg Bridge reopens? I hope so.
Yes.
See my post: "Weekends on the C..........."
Will they keep the R32s on the "A" when the WillyB reopens?
The extra R32s sent there from Jamaica will go back there.You still may see a train or two of R32s on the A if they are short some R44 or R38 equipment.
Does anyone have a track map of Queensboro Plaza before they cut the Queenboro Bridge connection? I have an old track map of Eastern Parkway before the Fulton El was scrapped if anyone is interested. I'll e-mail it for free.
There's one here on the site...
1920 IRT El Map
Tony -
If your map is any good, maybe Dave Piermann will post it on the historical maps page.
-- Ed Sachs
Sorry to keep hogging the board, but I keep remembering questions. I heard a rumor in a Gridlock Sam column in the Daily News that the NORTHBOUND side of Bleeker Street on the Lexington, well really, Park Ave. at that point, line is supposed to be connected to the IND. Can anyone verify this?
Under the proposed plan if the Bridge (Manhattan Bridge) is closed, one of the alternatives call for building a connection from Northbound Bleecker to the IND. Also proposed is a connection between Jay Street IND and Lawrence Street BMT.
The proposals also call for investigating the possiblity of connecting Cortlandt street IRT 1 line to City Hall BMT
You mean the two broadway lines?
[if the Bridge (Manhattan Bridge) is closed]
I'll tell you what -
If the Manhattan Bridge is closed I'll be leaving my neigborhood on the Brighton Line for a more accessible part of the city. In fact most people I know who live along that line will be doing the same. I believe we'll see a serious decrease in per capita income along that line. The D train in Brooklyn will become as scary as the L or the J.
If enough people in Brooklyn rose up in protest over the threat of the bridge being closed you wouldn't believe how fast the politicians would move to reactivate the Rutgers Tunnel-DeKalb connection proposal.
Out in L.A. they were telling people in the far northern subrubs it would take five years to build a passenger rail link out to their area using existing lines. After the 1994 earthquake knocked the main highway connection down, they got it done in one week because they knew what would happen to their jobs if they didn't get it done.
(I know a tunnel connection would take longer than a week to build, but the red tape would just vanish and the thing could probably be zipped through in about three years if the politicians thought they would have to get regular jobs because of the bridge mess.)
Yeah, ain't it amazing? I had the opportunity to try some "incentive" with one of my employees yesterday. She told me yesterday that it would take her two weeks or more to respond to a critical customer problem; I told her that I expected a response by Thursday morning and a solution by Friday afternoon - with the strong implication that her continued employment in my organization would be subject to review. Guess what? Suddenly her job became more important to her than her personal activities. Government works the same way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How? The IRT and IND have different car specifications. Are they going to do joint service like on the Flushing and Astoria Lines?
I think he means building a transfer to the Northbound tracks. You can only transfer via southbound local only...........
When they extended the IRT platforms back in the 50s, Bleeker came down far enough so they only needed to knock out a wall to link the southbound platform to Broadway/Lafayette. Connecting the northbound platform would require an underpass similar to the one built when they hooked the 6 up with the E/F at 53rd and Lex. Until now, the MTA apparently didn't think the traffic warrented it (and since they've waited until now to change their mind, any underpass would have to meet ADA requirements)
This proposed PEDESTRIAN connection would be done only if the bridge is closed (permanently?) It would allow access from the BDFQ (IND trains) to Northbound 6 trains. The other proposed conenction would also be a PEDESTRIAN connection between Jay Street (A,F)and the Lawrence Street BMT (MNR)stations.
They need it badly. I once went to Coney Island from 77th Street and transfered to the B from the 6 at Bleeker and on the way back, took the D to Brighton Beach, transfered to the Q, and took it to Atlantic Avenue, before taking the 4 back to the Upper East Side. The Q was local due to track work after Kings Highway, it took a long time before we left Brighton Beach, and we never overtook the D I had originally been on (I had transfered to the Q hoping for the opposite). The southbound B was alot faster. While he didn't do a 35-40 MPH run between Pacific Street and 36th Street and he went slower than the cars on the Manhattan Bridge (it was a train of R68A's) and I couldn't see the speedometer to see the exact speed because the motorman put newspaper over the window), it was alot faster than the return trip on the Brighton Line. To top it off, I missed the 4 at Atlantic Avenue because it was a train of redbirds and I thought it might be the rerouted 2, this was during the Lenox Ave Rehab, even though at the time they were rerouted heading southbound.
I transfer northbound every day. Just use your unlimited metrocard. I see a small handful of people that do every morning, but not nearly the volume as go the other way.
It is MUCH faster to get to the Grand Central area than to transfer at ATlantic or 42nd St. And the uptown 6 is never crowded in the morning.
If NYCT wanted to allow this transfer for the pay-as-you-go cards, they could. Just swipe your card on the way out at Bway-Laf. I don't know why they don't. They could also allow a transfer without swiping on the way out if they allowed entry at Bleeker with a card used in the last hour. They did this for some construction project a few years ago, although it wasn't always clear that you could.
My newest project will be the LIRR Line by Line. I am asking each subtalker who uses the LIRR to do their usual line (from the train). Exclude Penn Station . DO include the Brooklyn line and the Hunters Point line.
e-mail them to me at my e-mail. I will do any editing needed from any mulitple writeups and forward to Dave with your name(s).
Now is your chance to see your name in lights and for natioanl recognition!
Any MetroNorth riders-- same offer applies (include Grand Central and also include stations shared with other lines). Here again I will edit multiple writeups and include your name(s).
To save Dave any headaches DO NOT send them to Dave. I'll do any editing off-line and forward a finished product to Dave for Markup and placing on the site.
Peggy:
Please drop me or post your e-mail address. I can't see it from our
server. I will volunteer to do the Far Rockaway branch of LIRR. Do you want descriptions eastbound or westbound. Please advise.
I can do the LIRR main line from Hicksville to Ronkonkoma.
Peggy, I've been working on a by line description of all the branches and stations of the LIRR for a while for my LIRR History website at http://www.lirrhistory.com/
Some of the branches are complete and some are partially finished. Others I haven't started yet. I have a lot of pictures that I still haven't uploaded to my website. Let me know how I can help you with your project. Check out the following pages
http://www.lirrhistory.com/statoday.html
http://www.lirrhistory.com/indiv.html
Maybe nycsubway.org could link to your excellent site.
Doing line-by-line on the commuter roads here might violate the law on the subway operating outside the City Limits ;-)
> Maybe nycsubway.org could link to your excellent site.
Relax; we already do. See the Transfer Station.
-Dave
I have volunteered for Babylon and Hempstead, and have sent Peggy a Draft of the Babylon branch. It needs to be researched some, will take care of that as time permits.
Wayne
Let the rumors be put to rest: The B division Train Operators & Conductors have started picking jobs. They will be effective when the WillyB reopens. Let it be known that the C will continue to go to Euclid Ave. on Sat/Sun and holidays.
Unfortunately the TA has cut service on the A daily work programs BIG TIME. All the gap train jobs are gone totaling 3 Lefferts bound trips during the PM rush and at least 4 Rockaway Park A trains were recreated out of existing Far Rock and Leffert Bound intervals cutting 4 207 Street yard reports and reorganizing 4 existing jobs to keep the 116 St crowd happy. By the way this is the third biggest cut in service to the Rockaway area (C Line shortened and JFK express eliminated). By the way I'd like to commend the crews on the A for a job well done as the Straphangers's Association's latest report will put some pressure on our line supervision somewhere down the line, maybe calling for a changing of the guard.
A lot of the extra service on the A was for this current pick only due to the heavier crowds expected on the A due to the misplaced passengers from the WillyB closing. As for the E, it is hard to tell how much has been eliminated. Two things are for certain, the 4 trains laid up at 179 St. for AM service which run lite and go into service at Union Tkpe. have been eliminated. These slots/equipment are probably returned to the F. And there are many, many more 4 trippers for the AM & PM runs Mon. thru Fri. Comparisons can be best made by comparing the old and new timetables when published.
They should keep the extra service after the WillyB reopens. I was once on the A taking a trip to look at artwork and at Utica Avenue I was able to look at the work on the ramp to the mezzanine and get back to the Manhattan-bound platform before the train after the one I had gotten off of. It was packed! (I still got the rail fan window. You get a better view of the motorman on the R44 than the tracks and signals). It is like in DC, where every other train at 3:15 in the afternoon only has 4 cars, not 6. Once, I missed a 6 car train (luckily). The doors opened on both sides of the train at the next stop and they discarged everyone. I was on the 4 car train after that which was packed after the discharged passengers got on. They all fit somehow, and I had a seat so I was happy, but it was alot like the A train; crowded trains and infrequent service.
But a lot of those passengers usually ride the J/Z and now ride the A to ENY and get the J/Z there. The extra cars will have to be shifted back to their original spots so as to bring the J/M/Z back to their original pre WillyB closure levels. It is a chore to get full car service provided as it is. The TA is short cars.
In order to increase productivity and decrease crew costs and car mileage, a new spur track has been under construction just north of the Broad Channel station. It is now open. No longer will the shuttle trains be required to go to Howard Beach to turn. It fits the standard 600' train. Also, in past years, the shuttle was extended to Euclid Ave. on summer weekends to accomodate the beach crowds. With the C going to Euclid Ave., it would be operationally difficult to turn trains coming from both directions there. Now, the weekend day time Rock Park shuttle trains use 8 car R44's with the OPTO motorman having a conductor to open & close doors, make announcements, answer questions, and most importantly, observe the platform as the train pulls out, just the way it is supposed to be done!
In the NY Daily News Wednesday July 14, pages 26 to 29, is a series of speed contests between a 1999 chevy Corvette and the NYC Subway. After the good people of SubTalk read this article your speedy thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
[In the NY Daily News Wednesday July 14, pages 26 to 29, is a series of speed contests between a 1999 chevy Corvette and the NYC Subway.]
How about a speed contest between a legless turtle and a train of R-68s?
For the story:The Sports Car vs.the Subway
What would you prefer to be in when an 18-wheeler is bearing down on you in your rear mirror--a Corvette or an R-46?
Many years ago, Road & Track did a semi-tongue-in-cheek review of the San Francisco cable cars, complete with all the speed and acceleration tests. Top speed of 9.5mph was terrible compared to the competition, but the acceleration of 0 to 9.5mph in 0 seconds couldn't be beat! ;-)
Um. tough one, but I'd take the Corvette, since an R-46 on the street is going nowhere - and really slowly ,too.
Interesting competition. The driver had his car doing 60 on the highway and 40 in the streets and had the nerve to yell at the straphanger for jogging to the station! And where do you find someplace to turn off the engine of a 'vette at 42St and Park? This fool is lucky he didn't have a cop with abad day in the neighborhood.
Since a Corvette was chose and the sub-theme was traffic congestions, the Daily Snooze was clearly planning to write that traffic is so bad you'd be better off on the subway. But the subway is so slow it didn't turn out that way.
Most of the examples were not good. You use the subway to cover longer distances from northern Manhattan and the other boroughs to the central business district. They should have had more runs like Bay Ridge to Penn Station and Jamaica to Lower Manhattan. Of course a car would beat a subway for a few blocks across 42nd St. -- the train cannot make up the time spent on the stairs and waiting for the train.
Did they include the time spent getting a parking space? With that figured in, my impression is that (off peak) its faster to take the train in, but to drive home.
The A train arrives without delay and
blasts south like a thoroughbred, ripping through stations that pass
in a few blinks of an eye: 116th St; 110th St.; 103rd St.; 96th,
86th, 81st and 72nd Sts. Bam! Columbus Circle.
You don't have to be a genius to know that during rush hour, an
uptown express with no stops between 59th and 125th will
destroy any above-ground vehicle, maybe even a bicycle, en route
to Yankee Stadium.
They don't call it the A express for nothing.
He had to be on an A of R-32s or R-38s. An A of R-44s doesn't "blast south like the thoroughbred" on CPW or any other place
Except on SIRT. The R-44s on SIRT seemed much peppier to me than those on NYC Transit.
--Mark
Hey N Train. Haven't heard from you before, but I like your name. I hope I have found another Sea Beach fanatic. I just got the news that the Sea Beach won't be going over the Manhattan Bridge until 2001 at the earliest. What a bummer. Hell, in 1991, the last time I was in New York, we didn't cross the bridge either. How long does it take for these repairs to be made? I think I'll take the B train to either 36th Street or New Utrecht Avenue and then transfer to my (our) train.
Going via Whitehall, Rector and the rest is a big pain. Hope to hear from you.
We look forward to serving you when you come back to the city.
Places we go:
Movie District
Long Island Movie studios
Coney Island
Financial District
Central Park
Bloomingdales
Macy's Department Store
Downtown Brooklyn
Have fun.
Sincerely,
N Train
Broadway Local
Amen, my friend. The A was even better when the R-10s ruled the roost. The uptown run along CPW was second to none back then, and the R-10s weren't anywhere near as noisy as they would be later. Even the slant R-40s were swift (and still are) when they ran on the A during the late 70s.
The only downer nowadays is the timer heading southbound at 72nd St. You end up crawling the rest of the way to 59th.
Here's to my favorite route!
P. S. The N is still the Broadway Express in my book, even though it's been running local in Manhattan for the past decade-plus.
< The A was even better when the R-10s ruled the roost. >
The R-10s were swift, but I was told (decades ago) that there is another factor in the timing on the CPW express: that is, when the track was inspected (50's?) it was discovered that wear was much greater than had been anticipated for that type of track for the time period. (I think the quote I heard was something like "the worst track wear ever encountered on a straightaway" or some such).
So the speed may have been cut to save a few bucks, not for safety reasons.
Even in the late 60s, I don't recall there being a timer on the southbound express track between 72nd and 59th. There certainly wasn't any timer approaching 125th St. going northbound. A and D trains would come barrelling around that curve as they entered the station.
I wouldn't be surprised if speed restrictions were imposed in the early 80s. Other than that, every express train I ever rode on that stretch in those days was off to the races. That includes R-1/9s and R-32s on the D, as well as R-10s and slant R-40s on the A.
i spotted 3 new lirr bilevels coachs in oak lsland yard this am. there was 1 cab unit. this the first i seen in months.
Where is Oak Island Yard?
oak island is in newark nj by the turnpike
Heh, isn't that where LIRR trains are last seen before being abducted by the RR car body snatchers?
Then again, the LIRR starting to scarp these things wouldn't surprise me at all...
Heh, isn't that where LIRR trains are last seen before being abducted by the RR car body snatchers?
Then again, the LIRR starting to scarp these things wouldn't surprise me at all...
My guess is they're on the delivery route to somewhere, though I doubt it's LI - couldn't they just go over the Hell gate somehow to do that?
where those cars being assembled?
The final assembly is done in Yonkers. (I think KHI purchased the old Otis Elevator plant)
Someone posted a while back about some LIRR equipment being spotted in Baltimore. Perhaps this is the same equipment on its way back?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here is a partial list of part time towers. If i've left any off please add to them.
IRT
Flatbush Av
Bowling Green
96th St
137th St
219th St
Simpson Street
Brooklyn Bridge
BMT/IND
5th Av Cut (West End)
Myrtle Av
Bedford Av
3rd Av (L)
Hoyt Schemerhorn
Lafayette Av
Broadway East New York
Far Rockaway
Rockefeller Center(no longer covered full time)
168th ST
Tremont Av
Parsons Blvd (F)
Roosevelt Av
Bedford/Nostrand
62nd Street (West End)
Bay Parkway (West End)
Kings Highway (F)
57th Street (N)
Queensbridge
In addition, there is also a tower machine in the signal quarters at 125th Street on the Lexington Av IRT. This is generally only used in emergencies.
Also, There are push button machines, pistol grip(GRS), side to side levers(US&S) and mini lever machines (these are used in part time towers. An example is 96th Street on Broadway, which you can see from outside the office).
Don't forget the Freeman St tower.
The tower in the transit musuem is used when a train leaves from the museum- that tower is fully functional.
Add to the List:
30th St. 8th Av, Controls switches South of 34 St. Penn Station.
I know for a fact it's covered in the PM rush, and pretty sure it's a part time tower.
Also, I know the switches at Bowling Green can be controlled from Nevins Tower. Is there still an active interlocking machine at Bowling Green? If so is it there just for Emergencys?
I forgot about 30th Street. I thought it was only used for G.O.s.
Bowling Green has an active interlocking machine but it is generally only used for major G.O.s and in emergencys.
Another tower I think I forgot to mention was 3rd Av on the L line.
30th and 8th tower may have only been covered this pick because of the Williamsburg bridge closing. Its very important to get those A & C trains thru. It allows an extra place to reroute should there be a Blockade(old IND term, Ilove it) South of 34st on either the express or the local.
30 St-8Av was staffed during rush hours even before the closing of the bridge. 167 St on the Concourse line is part time including ball park specials. Lafayette Av-Fulton is used during emergencies and is fully functional. There are also tower control rooms at 181 St and 174 Street yard but controls replaced by the master tower.
Thanks Harry, 30th & 8th is a real help on the 8th Av line. I'm suprised that controls for that tower as well as 42st were not included at 59 Master tower. There is space on the board for them.
3rd Ave. tower on the L came in handy back in the late 60s when cars were stored on the Brooklyn-bound track on weekends during winter months. Trains ran in an absolute block between 3rd Ave. and 8th Ave., wrong-railing when headed to Brooklyn until they would switch over just before 3rd Ave. No announcements would be made on BMT standards, of course, nor on R-7/9s, but on the R-42s, the conductor would say, "Brooklyn train, Brooklyn train. This is an LL train to Brooklyn" at 6th Ave. and Union Square.
I don't think theres a tower at Simpson Street you may be thinking about Freeman Street Tower.
Been seeing a lot of them this week. Are they going to transfer all the R32's off the E? What line are these R46's coming from? (F, R, G)
FWIW, please leave the R and F alone. I love the R-46 and I usually ride these lines every day (LOL).
The R46s aren't coming from any particular line.Since Jamaica sent R32s to Pitkin for additional C and A service, they need some R46s.There are 3 jobs on the E line that start at 179st on the A.M tour. They may get the R46s from the F line as a result.It depends because they lay up R32s between Parsons blvd and 169st on D3 track.
I have seen the R-46s on the E during the weekday long before the Williamsburg bridge work.
Back them you saw maybe one or two a day.I have heard instances where as many as six of them were there on one day with the current schedules. Jamaica must really be short cars. Come to think of it, everybody is short cars.
Jamaica is not short of cars at all. For a notmal service day, I need 916 cars (That's about te size of the LIRR fleet - but who's counting). I have 752 R-46s and 290 R-32s or 1,042 cars = 126 spares. The trouble is with the Williamsburg Bridge closure, I have to put out 26 E trains or 260 R-32s. With 8 out every day for inspection, that leaves just 22 cars that can be out of service for repairs daily. Not very realistic for a 35 year old car. More realistic is 40-50 for repairs + 8 inspections. This means roughly 23 or24 R-32 trains. That's why R-46 are regulars on the E-line.
Actually, you probably are correct. When I don't have enough R-32s for E-Service, I use R-46s. it makes more sense than going down a train.
The fact is that before the Williamsburg Bridge closed there were 50 trains on the F and 22 trains on the E. Since the closing, 4 trains were added to the E and the F was reduced by that number. The R-46s, not needed on the F are being used on the E line.
Incidently (Wayne) this past weekend, 10 R-32s were transferred from Pitkin to Jamaica to add an additional E train.
Thanks, Steve...do you have their unit numbers so I can crown them with Light Blue "E"s?
Wayne
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!
Sorry about laughing Wayne but I just knew you were gonna ask that question. I'm ashamed to admit that I only remember a couple of them.
3730-31 3796-97 3421-3530 (I think). I'll get them for sure tomorrow AM.
Saw it Wednesday: 3731/30, 3468/3445, 3797/96, 3644/3621, 3773/72.
Thanks, so noted. I had two of the pairs down as "E" already, one as "A" and two as "C".
Wayne
Good. I was afraid they were gonna hijack the
R-46's off the R
line and put them on the E
like they did last summer...LOL
Moving the R-46s to the E from the R was for an entirely different reason. That situation does not exist this year.
I can see it on theater marquees now: The Taking of Forest Hills 1-2-3.
Well it would have to be "The taking of Forest Hills 1:29". If it was FH123, it would be a G train. (lol).
OK by me. I think you know where I got the idea.
yep :)
I was reading all the recent postings comparing the computer controlled MARTA System and the NYC Subway.
I have just one thing to say, a true realistic subway ride can only be experienced in cities that have old systems like NYC, Chicago, and Boston.
A ride on the CTA Red Line and say Bart are totally different. The rides are totally different. The quiet, smooth ride on BART just can't be compared to the loud and sometimes shaky ride on the CTA. As a true rail-fan I appreciate and enjoy the rides that both systems give. A True Subway ride can only be experienced in my opion on old systems like the CTA, MTA, and Boston's "T".
I also am kind of sad to see the old equipment get replaced. The CTA Brown Line and Orange Line run the 3200 series and these trains are relatively quiet and offer smooth rides. I guess pretty soon the whole system will operate like this with the 2600 series cars being renovated. I guess I better ride the CTA as much as possible before they to replace all their equipment and can no longer offer a classic and true subway ride.
BJ
A while back I posted some depth measurements of NYC subway stations, and Peggy will be incorporating these into her Line-by-Line essays (more measurements to come). You'll recall that the deepest one (we believe) is Roosevelt Island, where the lower level platform is 100 feet below the surface (all of my measurements are +/- 10 feet).
I just came back from running an errand at Porter Square, Cambridge, served by the Red Line of the Boston MBTA. The lower level platform is an amazing 120 feet below the surface! For the record, the levels are:
Fare control mezzanine - 20 feet below surface
Upper level (inbound) platform - 100 feet below surface
Lower level (outbound) platform - 120 feet below surface
At this location, the Red Line dips below the Fitchburg branch of the MBTA Purple Line commuter rail, which is in an open cut approximately 20 feet below the surface. I'm not sure, however, why the subway tunnel is so much deeper at this point, as the geography is relatively flat.
Next time I go to DC, I'll see if I can make measurements at DuPont Circle, Rosslyn, and the Pentagon on the DC Metro, which I believe are among the deeper stations on that system. Can any of our DC friends confirm that?
[Next time I go to DC, I'll see if I can make measurements at DuPont Circle, Rosslyn, and the Pentagon on the DC Metro, which I believe are among the deeper stations on that system.]
Also check Woodley Park.
Good idea Peter! I was just at that station last month (meeting at the Marriott Woodley Park) and it didn't dawn on me to measure at that time.
Also go out the other direction on the Red Line and check out the stations around Wheaton. They're supposed to be the deepest in the system.
Like Forest Glen. Which like 168, 181 and 191 on the 1/9 in NY, is accessible only by elevator. And BTW, I thought that 191 on the 1/9 was the deepest in NY.
So did I!. The current 191st Street station is not the original, due to a fire many years ago the original was so damaged that they built the current one many more feet down below that it was classified the deepest station in NYC.
Peace
DaShawn
Where'd you hear that?
-Dave
There is a book about the history of the New York City Subway system and they showed and explained the history of this particular station. I will get the title of this book, it is some where in my house.
Peace
Dashawn
AND - Wheaton, and deeper still, Forest Glen; so deep they forewent the escalator for a bank of six elevators. My guess - 200 feet down.
The escalator at Wheaton is long enough to induce vertigo.
Wayne
How are you measuring?
Gary,
I have a Casio Alti-Thermo Watch, which measures differential pressure altitude. Since I have it calibrated for "standard temperature and pressure" at sea level in Boston, I can only measure the CHANGE in altitude. So at subway stations, I take a reading at the surface, and then one at the desired platform level. The difference is the depth. It is accurate to +/- 10 feet. Note that I cannot take these readings in moving trains (such as in under-river tunnels) since it would be adversely affected by changes in air pressure caused by the moving train as well as the positive or negative pressure induced by the ventilation systems.
Hey Todd, I thought progress peaked with Maxwell Smart's Shoe Phone.
Oh, those altimeter watches are great Steve!
When I went to Hawaii (family trip, First class on "The Worst Airline"), halfway there, something shjorted on the plane and it started playing the canned emergency message that the cabin lost pressure. Now, I have no trust of aviation to begin with (and my dad's hobby is flying - it keeps life here interesting), and of course hearing this message that the plane just lost pressure doesn't help. My dad looks at me andsays "We're not loosing pressure" Apparently, his watch was reading the same 7,000 foot altitude as when we leveled off - of course, since it's really reading air pressure - any change in the cabin pressure would read as a change in altitude.
What got me was how the plane has a canned message for emergencies, basically a "We at and Boeing are sorry, but you're going to die in about 20 minutes" kind of thing. Creepy.
Phil,
I use my pressure-altimeter watch for the same purpose. It's interesting to note the different pressurization characteristics of passenger jet aircraft. Most Boeings (7x7 models) top out at 7-8,000 ft. pressure altitude when flying at 37,000 ft. But the Douglas aircraft, especially the DC-9 and MD-80 can peak at 9,000 ft. at 37,000 ft. That extra 1,000 ft. loss of pressure does a lot to your ears!
Back on topic... I am heading to NYC this evening to work at WCBS tomorrow. If I have some time and the heat isn't TOO bad tomorrow afternoon, I'll try to get some depth readings at the elevator-equipped stations on the 1 and A lines (yes, I know 181 St. is closed for elevator replacement). I have a pair of mail-order FunPasses in my pocket for the trip!
I know this is drifting off-topic, but have you ever had the opportunity to check out an A-300 or A-330 Airbus? They're the ones I avoid like the plague because they seem to cause earaches.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey - yet another reason to avoid Airbus stuff. I've heard that 727's are bad on your ears too - I know a few people who don't fly on them because of that.
I've not had trouble with those that I recall - but then it's been nearly twenty years since I've been on one. I managed to go without flying at all for just over ten years (late '83 to early '94) and fly now only when I head to Nevada to see my older daughter and my grandson. Delta and Continental are real nice about having 757s (decent) and 767s (real nice) on all the possible alternative routes I fly to get there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Try an L-1011. those can do a good number also---sorry folks back to the subject matter on hand. 191st Street is the deepest if I'm right. I remember having to climb the stairs to the train on ocassion and the same at the 168th ST station also.
I hope to measure 191's depth this afternoon if I can get a break from Traffic & Weather Together.
Actually 727s are among the best as far as I'm concerned. The pressurization is handled manually by the 2nd officer and can keep things smooth. It's the computerized systems that can go bonkers!
"2nd officer"? Do 727s have 3 people on the flight deck? I thought most US airlines used only a captain and a 1st officer on domestic flights. Maybe I'm wrong.
727s have three members of the crew up front. The plane is old enough that the 2nd officer (flight engineer) is needed to manage the fuel, electrical, air conditioning/pressurization, and hydraulic systems. (As consulting meteorologist for the USAirways Shuttle, I fly jump seat on their 727s - just did this afternoon coming home - so this is 1st hand knowledge!) DC-10s and L-1011s also have 3-member crews, as do 747-100/200s. 737s, 747-400s, 757s, 767s, 777s, MD-11s and all DC-9 models have 2-person crews.
So far, no OPTO. (whew! back on topic!)
Oops, forgot Airbus: A-300s for the most part have 3 crew members; some newer A-300/600s have two. All others (A-310,319,320,321,330,340) have two. Note that long overseas flights have additional crew members who serve as relief crew, especially on two position aircraft types.
No OPTO here either.
[ DC-10s and L-1011s also have 3-member crews, as
do 747-100/200s. 737s, 747-400s, 757s, 767s, 777s, MD-11s and all DC-9
models have 2-person crews.
So far, no OPTO. (whew! back on topic!)]
That would be OPPO, or OPAO though, wouldn't it?
There's an OPTO (or OPPO/OPAO) joke in the airline industry:
"Have you heard about Boeing's new 787? It has just one pilot, and a dog. The pilot is there to feed the dog, and the dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything." [I guess that's the ATO (APO?) of the airline industry.]
OK - so now we know about air crews, cabin pressure and other aspects of the 'tin bird'. Now if someone can figire out how to dispatch one of these from 191st St. Station...
Well, Gerry, I once heard our WCBS helicopter pilot/reporter say "The TA tells us there's a stalled train in the 60th street tube, but Air Traffic Control won't clear us in to take a look."
The 727 is probably the most popular aircraft around. I've flown on them more than once from Denver to New York on United, although lately they've been using 737s and 757s on such flights. 767s were used on Denver-to-LGA flights back in the mid-80s when they first came out.
The 727 is the R-32 of the United fleet.
Steve, if you like the 727 (as I do), you'll be sheding a tear. Most 727s will be retired by the end of 1999, when more stringent "Stage III" noise regulations go into effect. Some airlines have spent millions of dollars per plane to get a few more years out of them, but installing a "hush kit" which reduces the noise from the engines and other components. It turns out that the 737 is the plane with the largest production number.
The 727 is a favorite of mine too.
In my opinion, the best-looking airplanes are the 707 (gone), 727, 757 and the 747-100 & 200 (without the stretched top).
I also like the Soviet/Russian TU-154 (very similar to the 727, but more rugged and a bit larger). They handle quite well, are capable of landing/taking off on unpaved runways, and are overall an aircraft built to take abuse, but the way Aeroflot maintains them, well . . .
I personally like the McDonnell/Boeing C-17 Globemaster III myself
Yes, the 737 has taken over as the most popular aircraft these days. What's the deal with its much-publicized rudder (or whatever they call it) problem? Maybe one of these days I'll get to fly in a 747 and 777.
With all due respect to the 727, which has been an excellent piece of aircraft, let's just say I will shed a tear when the R-32s are put out to pasture.
The rudder problem affects early model 737s. Basically, a flaw in some servo unit in back causes the rudder to flip all the way to one side or another. It's suspected to have caused 2 crashes so far, and is the cause of quiet a number of "incidents" (according to the NTSB's web site). Boeing was saying for quite a while that it was "impossible", but apparently it isn't. In fact, it's a rather common occurance. If you search the airecraft listings on www.ntsb.gov, look for 737s with "uncommanded" rudder deflections. I counted 6 over the last year or so. Who know how many went unreported. The cynic in me (and you must understand that I have no faith in aviation) wonders how many other plane crashes are blamed on weather, but were really mechanically caused. Remember that the two crashed this is believed to have caused were both blamed on weather.
The FAA of course just tells us that flying is safe and Delta loses your luggage the most.
Frankly, I think it's reason enough to avoid 737s, though I feel that many of them, like many 727's, are simply too old to be safe. Remember, jet aircraft are designed with a finite lifespan, I think 50,000 hours.
[Frankly, I think it's (rudder problems) reason enough to avoid 737s, though I feel that many of them, like many 727's, are simply too old to be safe. Remember, jet aircraft are designed with a finite lifespan, I think 50,000 hours.]
But don't forget, Southwest Airlines flies nothing but 737's, and has never had a crash in its 25+ year history.
Regarding jet lifespans, the issue is not so much the number of flight hours as the number of times the plane's cabin is pressurized (which essentially means the number of flights). Each pressurization causes the plane's fuselage to expand and inevitably weakens its structure. Contrast that to subway and rail cars, which are subject to more or less constant physical stresses while in use and therefore do have lifespans more accurately measured by time.
Note: I'm no expert on aviation. My comments about jet lifespans are taken from the book _In the Blink of an Eye_, a description of the investigation into the TWA Flight 800 crash, which I'm just finishing up.
Rail cars are also built MUCH heavier. Part of the problem with planes is that they are aluminum - which sucks at fatigue resistance. Yes, pressuresation cycles DO take their toll. I'm not totally sure if it's an hour or cycle limit (I should have pointed that out). Also note the planes fly in more extreme temperatures, and the jet engines DO create vibration (yes). Vibration is a HUGE contributer to wear, indeed one professor in one of my classes (vibrations) claimed that it is a contrubuting factor in many mechanical failures. However, in the end, the bottom line is planes DO have a definite lifespan, which is something that few people realize, or even understand. Unlike a train car, which can effectively go forever, planes can, and do, wear out.
[However, in the end, the bottom line is planes DO have a definite lifespan, which is something that few people realize, or even understand. Unlike a train car, which can effectively go forever, planes can, and do, wear out.]
I see your point ... yet, if I'm not mistaken, some of the Air Force's B-52 bombers are older than any cars on the NY subway. Presumably they receive far more exacting maintenance.
>I see your point ... yet, if I'm not mistaken, some of the Air Force's >B-52 bombers are older than any cars on the NY subway. Presumably they >receive far more exacting
>maintenance.
Probably. Compare the DODs budget to the NYCT's....
Mike
I have heard that those B-52s (which are to be kept around for many, many more years) actually have not been flown that much - they are being held in reserve, apparently.
Also, is a B-52 pressurized? To the same degree as a passenger jet? That is where much of the stress on the fuselage is from.
On the subject of vibrations...I am fascinated by watching the wings on a jetliner vibrate in the wind. Always surprises me how much those things move. That must eventually fatigue the structure, I would think?
If you really want to talk about a flimsy aircraft, consider the U-2. It's wings are so long and flimsy, it has "training wheel" poles which support them until the pilot releases them just as the plane leaves the ground. Apparently, there is some system for putting the poles back on upon landing - a big production, which also means the plane may fall apart if it has to make an unplanned landing at an airport without its ground crew. The U-2 can make it up to the stratosphere, so NASA has a version of it called the ER-2, used for atmospheric research - this is how I know about this stuff.
Just out of curiosity, (and to stretch this even FURTHER off topic!) if maintained properly..does any body know the life expectancy of an inter-city bus shell? You see a lot of 30 year old buses being run..mostly by charter outfits...(every once in a while you'll see a classic Greyhound SuperSenicruiser out there...usually in the employ of a church choir or such...) or is this a question for the OTHER message page here??....lol
[Various things about 727 and 737]
While the 737 is the most popular plane ever built (in terms of number sold), not all airlines favor them. I've noticed that Delta flies mainly 727s and MD-80 series planes from it's Cincinnati hub. Personally I'm not a major fan of 727s...the interiors feel very old to me.. if they were to be refurbished so they don't look 20 years old I wouldn't mind them but then again compared to L-1011s they are much nicer.
Mike
Speaking of computerized systems...I was once on US AIR(ways) leaving my local airport (Stewart) on a Fokker series. We were delayed almost an hour (causing me,of course to miss my Pittsburgh connection) because the Auto Navigator went completely off-line...it was the first time I had flown in quite awile...talk about a confidence booster!
A-300s tend to pressurize/depressurize more rapidly, but end up at about 7000 altitude like the Boeings.
OK, it's probably the rate of change that has gotten to me then. Thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A few of us flew down to Ocean City, Maryland from Trenton, NJ
(Robbinsville) in a turbocharged Piper Arrow with (little old me!)
at the controls. Since it was a nice day, I decided to climb to
10,500 feet. Passing through 9,000 we heard a loud "bang!" from
the rear. The plane flew fine, so I figured that we hadn't lost
our tail, but it was still a little jarring, especially since that
was the same Arrow that swallowed a valve on me a few weeks prior.
The culprit? A bag of potato chips in the hold decided to teach us a
lesson about pressure. :D
Todd,
My initial response was "wow!"-- but then again we're typing messages that can be read by people all over the world through a two wire connection in the home.
My father told me that the reason some of the older stations like South Ferry had such incredible tilework was twofold. One, in a time period where it was still not uncommon to be illiterate, people could tell that they were near the ferry terminal if they saw large tiles that pictured a boat of some kind. The second is that people in general were more concerned about the aesthetics of public facilities at the turn of the century. Is any of this true? Dad was good at speculating.
Your dad speaks truth.
In addition to the illiterate, pictorial tiles were also aimed at non-English-speaking immigrants.
Thanks Peter. It dawned on me later that with the immigrant population in N.Y., especially at the turn of the last century; the placement of pictorial "plaques" was probably a lot easier than having a million and one signs in various languages all over every station. Dad was a pretty brainy guy, but I guess after fifty years of riding the subway a person picks up bits of knowledge like that. Thanks again. Later, Salvo.
Technically speaking, they're not all tiles - many are bas-relief plaques, many made of faience (pottery), some of plaster. The ones on the BMT and 7th avenue IRT below 42nd Street are made of tile.
Wayne
Both are true. A concern of the first subway was the transition of passengers underground - the plaques and mosaics were all an attempt to "beautify" the subway, not so different from the LA Red Line's extension being opened. Some of the plaques also served to identify where you were.
The original IND color tile bands were also an attempt to assist passengers in knowing where they would get on or off, simply by seeing the color in the station.
--Mark
Love those tiles.
And regarding the public's former concern with aesthetics: Thank goodness, it seems that recent station renovations are once again paying more respect to the spirit of the original beautiful work.
Unlike the truly hideous institutional-drab coverups at, say Spring Street on the Lex, you're seeing fun stuff like the Asian-influenced mosaics at Canal Street on the 1 (I think), and the whimsical "fallen leaves" and other interesting pictures at the 59th St. station (N&R?) next to Central Park.
Then there's the work at Cortland Street next to the World Trade Center (N&R again, I think), including those utterly spectacular relief murals in the connecting passageway under Church Street.
What's the deal on those, anyway -- does anyone know the story of that project? The murals, if you haven't seen them, incorporate various symbols of downtown/financial district/old New York, including lots of currency and seafaring images.
Anyone know anything more about those?
It's an MTA Arts for Transit installation entitled Trade, Treasure, and Travel, by artist Margie Hughto. We have a page of images of the various panels.
This thread might sound like a joke but it is true. Identra coils are used on the for routing on the Flushing Line. They are in the shape of a toilet seat mounted on the corner post outside the motormans cab. The toilet seat has a coil of wire tuned with a switched capacitor on the base of the seat. The wayside has two overlapping coils mounted vertically on a wayside case. The coils are nulled by a steel null plate with a feedback oscillator circuit using vacuum tubes. When the toilet seat comes in proximity to the wayside identra coils the oscillator will go in oscillation to the tuned tank frequency of the toilet seat. That will pick a Union Switch & Signal KP relay for routing purposes.
"Toilet Seats do Route Trains"
I suppose there are many good replies to this, such as:
NO $#!+ that's amazing!
-or-
Too bad it's not on the Number 2 Line! (attempt here to use color=brown)
I'm sure my creative and immaginative colleagues here on SubTalk will think of others...
But it is the FLUSHing line!
Cut through the chase. What are you saying?
"Cut through the chase."
Are you sure that you didn't mean to say "S**t or get off the pot!" instead? (^;
Hey John Bredin, Esq., That's is what they are called "toilet seats", I'm not kidding. The line is called the Flushing Line by coincidence. Actually it is referred to as the Number 7 Flushing Line.
How things in the lawyer business these days. What do you thing of mediation? It could put you people out of business. No court trials and no need for trial attorneys. Sueing is a big came of CHICKEN.
"How things in the lawyer business these days. What do you thing of mediation? It could put you people out of business. No court trials and no need for trial attorneys. Sueing is a big came of CHICKEN."
Cock a doodle doo!! Seriously, I'm not in the litigation buisness anymore, so it's no skin off my nose, but let me tell you that mediation is only as good as the mediator.
1) Some cases lend themselves to mediation, but others really don't. Mediators tend to try to get the parties to reach a 50/50 compromise, but some cases are "all or nothing." For example, if someone is accusing their employer of discrimination, they think they were discriminated against and (usually) the company insists it didn't discriminate. You can't 'split the baby' on something like that: either they discriminated or they didn't, and ONE of the parties is a liar!
Mediation is great for contract disputes and domestic relations (divorce and custody), where the parties know each other, have to or want to maintain some sort of relationship, and there really is a middle ground. In these cases, litigation really IS a game of chicken, because it sours the relationship. However, in my opinion, many (though not all) tort cases don't lend themselves to 50/50 solutions. Either the Enquirer slandered someone or they didn't. And if the XYZ company really IS making defective widgets that injure 35% of the people who use them as directed, do you want them to be able to "compromise" their way out of responsibility??
2) Speaking of employers, would YOU want to be bound to settle any dispute with your employer, or indeed under any basically "take it or leave it" unnegotiated contract, where the mediation or arbitration clause is biased in the employer's favor? The employer can prepare a contract with a mediation clause where they pick the mediator, with unreasonably low cap on damages, "waiver" of any appeal right, etc.. Mediation is totally appropriate and reasonable for a negotiated contract between persons of business where there is real give and take. But where the contract is basically dictated instead of negotiated, do you REALLY think the mediation clause will be even-handed or fair?
Again, I wouldn't want to apply mediation to many tort cases, such as where one is suing an airline, manufacturer, etc. for personal injuries, because the savvy business will put a "take it or leave it" "shrinkwrap" mediation clause that is totally biased in their favor on the back of the ticket, on the packaging, etc. If you don't believe me, look at some consumer websites or magazine articles where they talk about the highly biased provisions of so-called "shrinkwrap contracts" on software.
You seem to gloat about how society might be able to make attorneys unnecessary. But when its a dispute between you and some large organization, that ISN'T amenable to a nice negotiated settlement because it thinks it can simply wait you out, and the only possible leverage you have is the law, then you will wonder where the attorneys are!
Apocryphal story: Sir Thomas More, the Catholic cleric, lawyer, and eventual saint (no, those are NOT incompatible) heard a man say that he would sweep all the laws away to get at the devil, in analogy to the laws being trees and the devil allegedly hiding in this forest of trees for protection. More's response was (paraphrased): "But what will you do when the devil turns on you, after you've knocked over all the laws in pursuit of him, and there's nothing between you and him to protect YOU? Where will YOU hide now?"
Hey, John, what do you think the "Libertarian" MORONS "Looking Out For Number One" did with deregulation and the slandering of your profession, they knocked dowm all the laws. I hope that business and the financial sector in particular is put back under the rule of law real soon. I'll take a lawyer over an idiotic economist any day. those America wreckers deserve NO respect Keep on keeping on.
Apparently, you like it when government INTERFERES (yes, interferes) with business and screws everything up. Apparently, you liked it when planes where regulated by the government. Your favorite company is the cable company. Actually, it's the MTA, because it's run by the government you so adore and has none of the competition that improves pricing and service that you despise.
Toilets-- Flushing WE NEED A BOWL :~]
Use Flushing to take a "P" to Jamaica Center ....
--Mark
I wouldn't call it a toilet seat. Identra coils are nearly circular and look like a tennis racket with the strings. SEPTA uses them on the Broad Street Subway with a twist. The Brills and Pressed Steels used ones that were pre-tuned and clipped to a bracket on the car, but the Kawsaki's have ones that can be set by the operator for the route to be used. They simply fold up against the car end when not in use.
Have those coils been in use on Flushing line trains since the R-12 days?
Yes, those coils have been in use since R-12 days! I remember the first time I saw them, it was 1965, my first venture on the Flushing Line. I never saw R-12/14/15 cars, so I thought I went to a foreign country. And they seemed to have a different shade of dirt than the rest of the system.....
You should have used past tense, because the system has been deactived for quite a while now.
-Hank
The Identra system on the Flushing Line was installed in the 1950s and was state-of-the-art at the time.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I guess it's appropriate for the "toilet seat" to have a "tank" circuit.
They don't use them anymore.BTW, they have three settings on them: Local,Express, and Super Express. I have no idea what the Super Express was.
Perhaps the Super Express to the World's Fair??
--Mark
Yesterday in the E-Trade commercial in the middle of the 4th inning during the all star game there was an R62A subway car. I caught the first 2 numbers, 18??. Anyone know which car this is and where it was filmed?
It must be a Pelham Car(6 train)...................
I think the number is #1881.
Wayne
There was also a print ad in the July 5th edition of Fortune Magazine. 2 pages. It was taken in the Transit Museum R-36WF. Dead giveaway - the older "please keep hands off the doors" signs on the doors and the "CO" from the "Court Street" tile sign could be seen through the windows of the first set of side doors.
--Mark
The critical fact about that commercial is that it presents those who ride subways and buses, and live outside Manhattan, to be losers.
My LIRR History Website has moved to a much larger location. The new address is http://www.lirrhistory.com/
I had run out of space on the old server and the new location will enable me to add a lot of new material that I have in the coming weeks.
Please come and visit.
Thanks for the tip, Bob. I'll check it out before I hit the sack.
Doug aka BMTman
It's a great start (more than that!) Bob!
Thanks!
I particularly am interested in photos/info/tk-maps of the abandoned lines in NYC.
Is the ALP44 and the ALP44M used by NJT the successor to Amtrak's AEM7? I noticed that they look about the same and they have the same horsepower rating.
The ALP44 and the AlP44M are basically the next generation locomotives based on the AEM7. The main differences between the the ALPs and the AEM are that for one the ALP can operate off of the 11kv and the25kv catanary that's mainly used by NJtansit. Also the ALP44M has microprocessors for both propulsion and braking. Something that the AEM7s don't have. As for any HP difference I would have to ask around.
Woah - the AEM-7s can't do that neat 25k thing too? Oh yes, and do both of them have radial trucks? They sure look it - actually, were they the first radial trucked locomotives in the US if so?
I don't doubt that Amtraks AEM7 can't don the 25kv thing it just that until recently they haven had to use this property. On the trackage that Amtrak uses the AEM7 : -12kV 25Hz from Washington to New York City
-12kV 60Hz from New York City to Shell, phase breaks at 7.5mi. intervals
-12kV 60Hz from Shell to New Haven, phase breaks at 12 mi. intervals
-25kV 60Hz from New Haven to Boston, phase breaks at 20 mi. intervals
The last one isn't even in effect yet. The New Haven to Boston segment is finishing compeletion and will mainly be used by the Acela train sets and AEM7s. NJtransit has been using 25kv for a while now on the Morris & Essex line from Hoboken and the purchase of the ALPs were from what I heard they though Amtrak was going to totally change to 25kv (thus all electric out of hoboken uses 25kv)and when Amtrak changed it mind they had to buy a locomotive that could do the phase change between mainly the Morris & Essex line and the Mainline into Penn station NYC (i.e. NJT Midtown direct service). The best locomotive with that capability was the AEM7s follow on model the ALP 44 (and then the ALP 44M).
I'm not saying I'm right but that's the information I have gotten on the subject.
That the New Haven line, etc, runs long distances between phase breaks - does this mean they run 12 miles between substations too?
I was starting to wonder - wouldn't the cost of overhead / substation every dozen miles be *less* than third rail - and wouldn't the cost of upkeep (possibly on the rolling stock also?) be less too? And here's the zinger question - would it make sense in the long term for the LIRR to convert to overhead over a few years and electrify the entire system that way?
What is the typical cost per mile of overhead and third rail, assuming the same voltage/MHz? Is there any difference in transmission loss between overhead and third rail, or any difference in the number of substations required?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I, for one, am a fan of third rail operation. There is something about that electrifed rail at 600 - 750 DC that intreges me. Don't get me wrong, overhead (catenary or trolley wire) is also interesting.
For one thing, third rail is DC power, whereas most modern catenary or overhead mainline systems are AC. I'm referring to mainline electrification in this. So, I think the story is that AC can be transmitted greater distances than DC in third rail.
As to the questions, would it be economical for LIRR to convert. My answer would be no. Not only would they have to build a catenary system, but they would also have to get all new equipment.
Let the LIRR stay third rail. It is really the only thing it has going for it as far as I'm concerned.
Jim K.
Chicago
The big problem of switching from a primarly 3rd rail line to a cantanary system is that you have to consider the infrastructure along the line. Almost all the bridges and over passes along the line has to be examine to see if they meet the minimum clearance for a cantanary system. I don't know about the LIRR trackage but that's one of the many reasons why Metro Norths New Haven line never ran cantanary past Pelham and down to GCT. One it would cost too much to string up the lines ,redesign and build new overpassed and bridges to allow cantanary. In short it would end up costing more to tear up the 3rd rail (which works just fine) and the associate expenses, than what would be gained by putting up a cantanary system.
The catenary was cut BACK to Pelham a number of years ago - it ran down as far where it met with the Harlem line - the poles are still up for it. They did that so trains wouldn't block 2 lines when they blew the switchover.
Another item to consider-- in outdoor locations, the cvatenary linesd ice over and in summer they sag from heat. Many times I hear on the traffic and weather that this line or that line is 20-30 or more minutes late due to power line problem. I also remember the day a squirrel explored the Rye Substation for Metro North, lost his life and took out the train with his dying heroics.
Actually, an engineer (train operating type, not train designing type) told me that the slowdown is due to speed restrictions above NY due to the catenary - the old NH style doesn't use counter weights, so it sags in hot weather, and gets too tight in cold. Modern stuff is "constant tension", which means that there's a weight to balance it out, thus it can take expansion and contraction. Ice is still a problem - but it's a problem for third rail too.
Didn't some squirrel take out a power station by New Hyde park the other year too? Does anyone know why squirrels do this? Are they conspiring to shut down modern society? Are they depressed? Maybe we should feed squirrels Prozac?
Same reason pigeons and transformers/high voltage don't get along: the animal brain can't comprehend the danger therin. Isn't just electricity - they can't understand anything man has invented/developed. When they do adapt, it's because the man-made stuff looks to them just like the cliffs, trees, etc. that they elvolved in. Anthropologists have made a career out of researching how animals adapt to the industrial world.
NJT's NE Corridor also has wire problems. I do expect that with Acela that new towers will reduce this problem.
Bring on the third rail. In London they use a fourth rail for negative return. Great idea.!!!
A third rail would not work on NJT. With rare exceptions, the stations are two wall platforms and auxillary low platforms to allow access to the inner tracks. If there were a third rail the low plats could fry the passengers. Can we say "Lawsuit" (Our Lawyer friend- care to comment).To use these low plats, a trap door is raised uncovering the steps from the train's end doors. I am not a design engineer but wouldnt the shoes be near the doors?
Steve can comment, but if one shoe is hot (electric current passing through) all the shoes on that car are hot- even on NYCT's work cars that have overhead and third rail. Metro North's New Haven Line also has both and the shoes are hot if the overhead is hot.
Find an old picture of LIRR MP-54s in operation. Low platform, third rail. They even ran it under (actually in front of) the low platform on occasion. I know as a fact that at least part of the Port Washington line was like this till the M-1s arrived, as were parts of the Babylon and Hempstead lines. BTW - when they did the high platforms at Manhasset, they left the low ones in, I see they pulled it out when they redid the platforms this year.
Also, the ACMUs have traps on them because the NY Central did the same thing. Ithink they had lows until fairly recently on thew Harlem line too.
Are the low platforms on one track or like NJT do passengers have to cross one or more tracks to get to the high platform. On NJT the low platform allows use of the express tracks for "local" stations. At the six track stations, there are walkways between low platforms soany of the 4 inside tracks could be used for either high platform.
What NYCT work equipment has third rail AND overhead collection, and why?
Seems to me I've seen diesels on the Lex with 3rd rail connections. Can't remember ever seeing any NYC subway equipment with a provision for taking power from an overhead line.
I've seen some in the museum
Weren't those for use on the trolley trackage in Brooklyn (and possibly elsewhere) rather than in the subway?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What you saw in the Museum are South Brooklyn Railway electric freight locomotives. They used to pull freight cars from Bush Terminal along McDonald Av to Parkville interchange with the LIRR. They could also go all the way down McDonald Av to the Coney Island Yard. This is how most of the NYC subway cars were delivered for many years. The electric freight service lasted until 1961, and the wire was not removed until 1965. The TA pole gang was busy ripping down the Brooklyn trolley electrification from 1956 to early 1980.
I have read that the main restriction keeping the MAS on Amtrak south of New Haven at 125 mph, as opposed to 150 mph is the lack of constant tension caternary. (of course there are lots of curves, but south of NYC, there are areas which are straight enough to allow that speed). Anyone know if this is true? And if Amtrak is planning on upgrading to constant tension caternary south of New Haven? Sounds like it has other advantages...
The restriction on the MAS south of New haven is due to that AND the fact that Metro-North doesn't want Amtrak trains going faster than they are now (75 mph is the MAS, with drops to 40 at the bridges, except for 90 near Larchmont). Since M-N runs the New Haven line, not Amtrak, they call the shots. Below New Rochelle, however, it's all Amtrak. Last I heard, both M-N and Amtrak really want to redo the New Haven caternary, but Conneticut, being the pro mass transit state it is won't cough up the cash for it (they own the tracks actually). Ever notice the changeover to constant tension at the NY boarder, plus the concrete ties?
Does anyone know if constant tension is coming to the NEC south of NYC?
Probably not. Too much $
Maybe those squirrels want to get a charge out of life! (rim shot)
Or maybe they're burned out and need to recharge their batteries! Oh-oh, I see the hook!
Just to set the record straight, the Illinois Central and South Shore both use 1500 VDC overhead catenary. The IC adopted it first, then the South Shore switched over from 6600 VAC operation when service was through routed all the way to Randolph St. via IC trackage.
N'uff said
Took the x17 to work this morning, which runs through New Jersey. Near Oak Point Yard, on the rear of a train that was stopped, were most definately 3 LIRR bilevels, including cab control car 5014 (or 5041?) The MTA logo was unmistakeable, and only the number on the 5014 was large enough to read from the bus.
I could also swear I saw several RTS stacked on the their sides just before exit 15E.
-Hank
Just where is Oak Point Yard in New Jersey?
Also, is it just coincidence, or is there some actual reason that there should be two "Oak Point Yards" in the Metro NYC area - one in New Jersey and one in the Bronx?
One's called Oak Point (NY) the other is Oak Island (NJ). You can find Oak Island sort of parallel to the NJ Tpk near exits 14 and 15E.
-Dave
[One's called Oak Point (NY) the other is Oak Island (NJ).]
Of course, there probably aren't any oak trees within a half-mile of either one :-)
My mistake, it's Oak Island Yard in NJ, Perpendicular to the NJTP. Th cars are still there, and it's definately cab control car 5014.
-Hank
Remember a derailment near Yankee Stadium several months ago? Stacked containers hit a local bridge over the MNRR and tied things up. They were intended for Oak Island NJ, not Oak Point NY. On the West Shore line the clearances had been improved for this sort of thing. A confusion regarding the destination name got the cars on the wrong train. Years ago the Hudson Division clearances were improved from Selkirk to Tarrytown. This enabled the GM plant to ship bi-level auto cars north from their plant. The criteria for clearance improvement south of Tarrytown to High Bridge was set for TOFC which is not quite so demanding. All of this pre-dated the double stack operations common today. The TOFC target was the Harlem River yards and possibly Long Island Points. The missing link was the bridge structure in the Harlem River. It had been completed but not placed in service at the time of the derailment. Didn't take long thereafter to open it up. These projects started up in the mid 70's.
Okay, but what's with these RTS's on their sides???
NY Cross Harbor is going to be floating them across.
Considering that they are being assembled in Yonkers, along the Hudson line, I can't for the life of me understand why they would be shipped through Albany. The obvious 'fast way' to get them to Long Island would be to send them down the hudson and around the wye to the New Haven line, then over the Hell Gate Bridge to Sunnyside.
-Hank
Clearances, perhaps? I don't know, just speculating.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's an odd place to find LIRR cars: 1st Ave. near 50th street in Brooklyn by Bush Terminal.
I saw a series of old coaches there in January. Apparently they were being readied for car-float barges for the trip to Greenville, New Jersey on their way to a scrap yard. I'm sure the new bi-level cars made these old coaches obsolete.
Doug aka BMTman
From what I'm told, an investor bought over 100 of the old coaches. He's refurbishing them and reselling them to tourist railroads around the country. Perhaps I'll see one or more out by the Grand Canyon this fall.
I once saw several LIRR cars doing the strangest thing of all - running on time!
Maybe not the Grand Canyon for the old LIRR cars, but there will be at least ONE in Arizona.
Grand Canyon Railway has a good supply of the former Southern Pacific commute coaches from the San Francisco area; six have still not been refurbished yet (twelve are serviceable).
There is a tourist line in Yuma (the Yuma Valley Railroad) that bought one of them (for now) and they said they'd have it running by the end of the summer.
To repeat my comment in another thread ... about a dozen of these coaches are on Cape Cod Central ... although that RxR went under & has re-emerged as a different name.
Mr t__:^)
I spoke to Bruce Crawford, at the time an executive with NYCH; he informed me that the cars were being sent to May Ship on the north shore of Staten Island.
-Hank
I spoke to Bruce Crawford, at the time an executive with NYCH; he informed me that the cars were being sent to May Ship on the north shore of Staten Island .
-Hank
I was just out to Bush Terminal last weekend. I was scouting the place out in anticipation of a possible 'tour' of the area next month. I saw the usual boxcars and gondolas of NYCH, as well as one of their old diesel units in faded sky blue (#58 -- for spare parts). Their was little else in the way of equipment, but the amazing amount of trackage winding between the streets and buildings down there is a railfan's delight!
AFAIK, the new bilevel coaches follow a somewhat circuitous route - by ship from the factory in Japan to either Long Beach or Port Hueneme, then by rail to New Jersey, then by flatbed truck to Yonkers for finishing work, then via Hell Gate to the LIRR.
Hank:
I'm mailing this to you personally because I am a WebTV user. Because
some other miscreant has abused the SubTalk Message index, and Dave P.
cannot block him individually I cannot post until Dave takes care of it.
Those LIRR Bi Levels are there not coming from Yonkers, but going to
Yonkers. After they arrive from Japan they go to Yonkers for final
assembly. So after arriving in NY they travel to Yonkers via CH then
NY&A and CSX to Yonkers. Three RR's for a short ride! If you would, post
the information for everyone to see. Thanks.
Erik (The Transit Professional formerly known as Mr. R-46)
They can go via Oak Point to the Hell Gate Bridge.
Just in case anyone is interested: Me and a few Friends went down to 1St Avenue in Brooklyn this past sunday. When passing New York Cross Harbor's yard, we did see Several Long Island Railroad Bi-Levels in the yard. These Bi-Levels include 5014 which Mr.Eisenstien saw a few days ago in New Jersey. Unfortunately Photos were impossible because the cars were on a track next to some freight cars that completely obstructed the view. I assume they will be moving today or tommorow
ONe oif my da's friends saw a large amoutnof bilevls being built when he rode by the factory in his car some were for the LIRR and some ne believed were for MARC
I would like to talk to anyone who models rapid transit, whether it be a model rr or subway cars etc. I am especially interested in the nyc city subway, nj transit and lirr. I have to get a new email address but for now you can snail mail me at PO box 1415 Stockbridge, MA. 01262. I would love to hear from others who share the hobby. Will respond to all letters. Thanx
Take a look at our list of subway modeling web sites.
-Dave
The New York Division of the Electric Railroaders' Association is sponsoring an "End of an Era" excursion on the LIRR on Saturday, 25 September 1999. Coach seats are $40, parlor car seats are $60. I'm scanning the sheet that I received from them today and sending it to Dave so he can include the full details in the Upcoming Events listing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't bother I received it in the mail myself. I'm adding the info as we speak.
The ERA flyer announces the train will operate "rain or shine."
Wow! That should be a new experience for the LIRR!
In the NY Daily News Thursday July 15, page 8, is an article about subway riders are enduring longer, confusion-filled trips because transit officials do a terrible job of informing starphangers of route changes, a study released on Wednesday july 14.
Also next to the above article page 8, is an article that subway riders who for months have been left without subway service over the Williamsburg Bridge may have their rides back a month earlier. The job will be done in early september instead of october.
After you have read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
It is really hard to say. I do agree that some of the signs are misleading. As for missing signs, I have witnessed vandals pulling the signs off of walls and station poles (maybe they think if the signs aren't there the service changes won't happen). As for signs for lines that don't stop at that station: a little extra information
never hurts anyone.
I would wager to say that the majority of those surveyed probably would not know how to get to their destination any way other than the way they have gone for years. True, they can't be as knowlegable as any of us Sub-Talkers but you would think they would have an alternate route. If any of you wonder if this is true, just be at Grand Central on the 4,5,6 when a delay is announced and alternate routing (take shuttle to Times Square etc) is given. All you see is a wave of blank stares and questions: what's a shuttle, or when I take the shuttle how do I get to Times Square. These are questions I have been asked and I am coming from the Bronx.
As for the surveys, most are not worth the paper they are written on.
Both passengers and the TA are equally at fault. Yes, sometimes the TA does not get the word out. But I have personally seen passengers tearing down service diversion notices presumably thinking they are somehow getting back at the TA, but they are really hurting their fellow rider. But passengers don't read either. I passed thru 42/8 last Sunday. I openly heard grumblings about E service to Queens never showing up. Yet these same passengers were either ignoring the service notices which advised them that the E was on the N/R line there or leaning against the very notices they should have been reading!
I am working 23rd st on the C and E. Right now there is a G.O. from 11pm to 5 am where downtown runs express. I personally taped the downtown side. within 15 minuites the tape was broke and people were mo.bing the downtown side. I get on the PA and announce no downtown and yes- you guessed it. They come to my booth and ask why there has been no downtown train. Like I keep saying- they are sheep and yes, sheep are DUMB!
What is a G. O.
G.O. = General Order. These are normally defined as a planned change in normal service to perform certain tasks. G.O.s are printed on PINK stock and posted throughout the system. They are designed for a finite period of time. They may be as simple as express trains using local tracks around one station or as complex as the closing of the Williamsburg bridge. The G.O. will also contain, the purpose, new schedule numbers, temporary routes, who will be in charge, who will be notified, where flags and absolute blocks will be placed, need for extra personnel, and most import - when it will end.
And of course, even when you tell them to their face, they still don't get it. Today (Fri), there was a GO running that had the Coney Island-bound B making express stops on the N line (that's Pacific, 36, 59, Stillwell). I was on an N, telling people on the platform to "Use this N if they wanted B service. There are no trains going from here to 9 th Ave. I left about 30 people at my position alone, standing waiting for a B train at both Pacific and 36th St. When they finally get home, they'll whine and complain about how the service sucks and the TA never tells them anything, and evetually they'll get surveyed and we'll see another article.
The obvious question here is, "Why waste the resources to tell them if they won't listen when you do? I get just as much grief whether they know of diversions or not.
Pacific, 36, 59, Stillwell
Ooooh ... tell me this GO is still in effect next week, PLEASE!
--Mark
OK Mark- I'll tell you that it is- see my post
Oh yes- The E is also running on the R from 12:01Midnight Saturday Night(Sunday Morning) to 2am Monday. During these hours the R is running as a shuttle. The F will also run on the G line Northbound. SOuthbound the F shuttle runs from 47-50th( A CHANGE) to Church Ave.
Yes it is . Wed , Thurs, and Fri from about 0930 to about 1530 the Coney Island-bound B will run express from 59/4 to Stillwell
I hate the B train. They always seem to get preferential treatment over me.
Sincerely,
N Broadway Local
I need to clarify some things that I said yesterday morning about Philadelphia and it's appearance from the rails. Personally, I like the city, but you have to admit that if you were from some part of the country where there was minimal urban development of any sort; your first glimpse of Philly would be less than pleasant. It gives people from the Southeast in particular a bad impression of what PA,NJ, and NY must be like. I grew up in the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn and saw plenty of things and places that would be considered less than attractive. When I was young I didn't think about things like that. That's just how it was. But it seems to me that in every city I've ever been in, the train station and the tracks always pass through the worst areas. And that's something that isn't just particular to the Northeast. We just had a high volume of industries up here much earlier than the rest of the country and that left it's mark.
One thing to remember is that most RR routes go back close to 100 YEARS (in some cases further) in the northeastern corridor. Consequently, they run through neighborhoods/areas that were built prior to or at about the same time to take advantage of the railroad.
Also, keep in mind that RR rights-of-way were usually constructed in and/or around industrial areas for the general use of those related maufacturing facilities. Since the northeast had become de-industrialized over the past 30 years (thanks in part to things like NAFTA), those areas have fallen into serious decline and decay.
Doug aka BMTman
Re: rail lines going through industrial areas.
Furthermore, industrial areas tend to look "run down" even when they are up and running.
To many people, "industry" implies the industrial parks they see along the side of roads, clean, sanitary boxes which could be (and are) equally used for commercial or *light* industrial uses. The industrial uses in these parks tends to be warehousing and the final assembly of "clean" products, and they are rarely built on rail lines because they ship in quantities best carried by truck.
In comparison, "real," traditional, heavy industry looks very unsanitary and messy. Such plants and factories aren't always kept painted and free of rust even when they are successful operations, because they'll only get dirty anyway. And because they ship raw materials in and/or products out in carload and multi-carload lots, these are the very uses that are located along the rail lines.
I've seen factories that were humming with activity, working on three shifts to maintain output, and the only difference in appearance between these plants and long-closed ones are the number of people and vehicles moving about. The buildings, yards, etc. look just as "run down" on first appearance.
Even where a company is trying to put a clean face on its factory, that face is almost always on the street/highway side of the plant. The side facing the rail line is the "down and dirty" working side of the factory and "who cares how we look to rail passengers? They aren't our customers anyway."
For what it's worth, when my family and I rode the Amtrak Silver Star
to Orlando (yes, Disney World) two years ago, all of the secenery along the right-of-way was pretty bleak right through Philly and Baltimore. Only when we switched to diesel at DC did things start to brighten up, and further south (Va) things got even brighter. Some of the rural scenes in NC and SC were amazing. I agree with the assessment of "run down" industrial areas---they're not pretty when they're productive, let alone abandonded.
Unfortunately, in Philadelphia, a lot of the factories along the NEC ARE abandoned. And, they look a whole lot worse than the ones that appear to be in use in, say, Newark. At least to me...
Actually, it was the unions that did in industry in the Northeast. NAFTA hadn't come along when the mills closed in the Northeast and moved their operations to the Southern US. Unfortunately, the unions followed the mills eventually. NAFTA only let the mills move further South from the Southern US.
Of course, we all know that it was management that created the unions in the first place by paying people less than they were worth.
I agree, it was both management and the unions that ultimately caused the decline of the industrial centers. Basically, the peculiarities of capitalism itself was the defining factor.
For instance, management wanted higher productivity, while in most cases not offering the workers higher wages as an incentive. On the other side of the equation, the workers and unions wanted better wages and benefits while in most cases not offering management any guarrantee of higher preformance rates. It was a 'Catch-22' situation that eventually led most major US manufacturers to relocate their processing/assembly facilities to countries with large populations able to work at 1/8th of what their American counterparts had made (and with little or no health benefits). That's the nature of the system.
Doug aka BMTman
Visited my local hobby shop yeaterday & picked up the July 99 edition of Ralipace. Found quite a few Metro Area one shot photos, incl.:
- former Boston T PCC at Brooklyn
- former Newark PCC at MN
- new LRV for NJT (outside & inside photos)
- M-N as NH FL9M
- M-N as M-N F10
- LIRR FA1, GP38 & DC30AC
- Acela HHP at Philly
- CT/Shoreline as NH GP40
- former LIRR coaches at Cap Cod Central (have 9 to 11)
- Amtrak AEM7 at Rahway, NJ
- Amtrak F40 at Meriden, CT
There is also an article about a trolley museum (guess U NO Y eye bought the mag) & a short line opns. Am thinking they would publ. a subway/mass transit article if someone sent them one ? Hint hint.
Mr t__:^)
Railpace is the best way to go... Amtrak, and Metro North are fine, but there's not enough NYCT!
Hey, wait a minute! Which trolley museum are you talking about?????
A subway article - it can be done, as Railpace covers a variety in transit items, whether it be commuter rail or light rail for that matter.
The old Passenger Train Journal covered a great deal on rapid transit. I have a copy of a 1993, PTJ issue, in which the TA was the main focus. We need more articles like that one.
-Stef
And Stef, I just saw YOUR smiling face in this month's edition of BERA's The Tripper.
Why thank you!
I unfortunately haven't become qualified to operate the BERA equipment yet. That's all going to change. I've had my hands tied with an elderly SMEE car that needs tender loving care. The car has a face that only a mother could love.
Don't I sound crazy? I think the heat is getting to me.
-Stef
Stef, It is "Trolleyville USA" of Cleveland ... had it been one of our favorite Museums I would have mentioned it by name.
Mr t__:^)
Oh my! Why not put Shore Line and Seashore into the fold?
-Stef
I have to agree completely with you that the general area around Ronkonkoma strikes me as being rather bleak. Not too far away from me on the LIRR line before you get to Floral Park is one of the most eerie looking abandoned churches/cemeteries I've ever seen. The place is all overgrown and the headstones and monuments are just barely visible above the brush and weeds. I want to say that this is near the Hollis/Holliswood area. If you are coming from Manhattan it will be on your right. I think the neighborhood around it consists of junk-yards and stretches of wasteland.
Well the scenery from the 7 train aint that great either, from the run down Flushing river to through Jackson heights and Elmhurst. The nicest views are of the city skyline after Woodside.
The newer sections of Queens like Queens boulevard have underground subway. The Els generally do run through older, more run down neighborhoods.
As far as LIRR, it's been awhile since I've taken it into Penn station. When I lived in Wantagh I took the Babylon branch in, the scenery from the Elevated trestle is nice in Nassau, but in Queens it starts going downhill and is depressing, especially in/around Jamaica.
Tomorrow I'm taking LIRR from Mineola to Penn, any other advice on what I'll be seeing along the way?
What LIRR line has the worst scenery, and which one has the best?
John
All the way from Mineola to Woodside it's pretty much light industry and apartment buildings. You do get some nice skyline views after Woodside, as well as the Sunnyside yards.
Most railroads by nature run through industrial areas, so junkyards and warehouses are inevitable. Based upon my observations, the ugliest LIRR branch is probably the Long Beach thanks to an extended trip through an oil refinery, although one is treated to a nice bridge crossing over Reynolds Channel. Ronkonkoma probably gets dishonorable mention, but warehouses and truck farms are a backbone of the Island's economy, aren't they?
The nicest? Oyster Bay runs through a lot of the Island's Gold Coast, so there's more foliage than industry. There is a stunning aerial view of Roslyn village, and a nice view of Oyster Bay harbor. Since the diesels run so slowly, you won't miss anything. Montauk, east of Patchogue is very long but affords great views of farms, waterways and those famous Hampton villages.
Going off the LIRR, the nicest branch of NJT for my money is the Coast line once you clear the Amboys and all the attendant oil refineries. Many scenic ocean, river and bay vistas await, and many of the beach towns the trains pass through look quite charming, with the possible exceptions of Long Branch and Asbury Park.
I'm sure many readers of this site are from the above two localities, so now I'm in for it!
[Ronkonkoma probably gets dishonorable mention, but warehouses and truck farms are a backbone of the Island's economy, aren't they?
...
I'm sure many readers of this site are from the above two localities, so now I'm in for it!]
Don't worry, you're not in for it, but I have to make a correction :-) Seems that the truck farms are long gone from the Ronkonkoma line. The one semi-agricultural exception is some sort of horse riding facility right near the station in, of all places, Brentwood. I said "of all places" because horseback riding is generally an upscale sort of activity, and Brentwood is definitely not an upscale community!
I would tend to say you're right about the Coast Line. I board at Little Silver for the trip to NYPenn and it is a nice ride. Crossing the Raritan Draw between Perth Amboy and South Amboy is nice, and then once you've cleared South Amboy the scenery picks up again until you get to Long Branch - and even that's not all that bad. From there the ride to Bay Head is quite pretty - even Asbury Park isn't too terrible near the train (other parts of town are much worse).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hempstead Branch from Bellerose to Hempstead is quite nice; a trip through leafy residential Garden City, views of Incarnation Cathedral and Garden City Hotel, some quaint station houses, a couple of cool curves, a nice ride.
- Wayne
[Tomorrow I'm taking LIRR from Mineola to Penn, any other advice on what I'll be seeing along the way? What LIRR line has the worst scenery, and which one has the best?]
West of Mineola as far as New Hyde Park, the line passes mainly through commercial and industrial areas, with some residential especially to the south. It then becomes more residential up to the Queens line. You get some pretty good views from the elevated portion as you go through Floral Park, with the Hempstead line coming in from the south. Just about at the Queens line, you'll see the Belmont race track line to the south. Once you're in Queens, the scenery is rather bleak, although if you sit on the south side of the train you'll have a good view of the sprawling Hillside maintenance facility. Among the sights at the facility are two heavily burned MUs, victims of an arsonist at the yard in Huntington.
There are three abandoned stations in Queens - Bellaire, Hillside (not the employees-only platforms at the maintenance facility), and Union Hall. The only one that's easy to spot is Union Hall, with largely intact platforms on the north side of the tracks, just before Jamaica.
[Not too far away from me on the LIRR line before you get to Floral Park is one of the most eerie looking abandoned churches/cemeteries I've ever seen. The place is all overgrown and the headstones and monuments are just barely visible above the brush and weeds. I want to say that this is near the Hollis/Holliswood area. If you are coming from Manhattan it will be on your right.]
That's the old Prospect Cemetery. You can read all about it at www.forgotten-ny.com, under "Street Scenes."
Thanks yet again for the info Peter. I'm beginning to think that there isn't anything you don't know about. Later, Salvo.
Thanx for the plug, PR!
<<<<me on the LIRR line before you get to Floral Park is one of the most eerie looking abandoned churches/cemeteries I've ever seen. The
place is all overgrown and the headstones and monuments are just barely visible above the brush and weeds. I want to say that this is
near the Hollis/Holliswood area.>>>>
That is most likely Prospect Cemetery, one of the oldest cemeteries in New York City. Unfortunately it has fallen into disrepair in recent decades; volunteers have all they can do just to keep the section facing 159th Street relatively clean. The cemetery itself dates to the mid-1660s and there are headstones going back to 1702.
The abandoned church nearby is St. Monica's. It burned down, except for a very small section, two years ago.
Hopefully, Prospect Cemetery will see better days in the future.
Kevin Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
[The abandoned church nearby is St. Monica's. It burned down, except for a very small section, two years ago.]
I think St. Monica's collapsed rather than burned. It was no surprise, as the building had been completely decrepit. You don't see too many church buildings that had been abandoned as St. Monica's was. There must have been some reason behind it.
Anybody have any idea what the tracks in the Dumbo/Fulton Ferry area wre used for? I know this was a big industrial area; and, some of the tracks seem to lead into the sides of buildings. Specifically, I'm thinking of the tracks around Main and Washington Streets.
It seems they must have been for moving goods between warehouses; but, some spurs head toward the water and some toward the old ferry slips.
I assume these were never hooked into the Brooklyn streetcar network, correct?
Dale
Back in the 20's a small freight line serviced the Empire Warehouses. It was called the Jay Street Connecting Railway and is covered quite substantially in Jay Bendersky's "Brooklyn's Waterfront Railways" (see the Transit Museum -- they currently have them in stock). I believe this waterfront line ran until the early 50's. Also, Uban Coffee also had their own rail-freight line that worked the DUMBO area (closer to the now abandoned Con Ed steam generating plant near Gold Street).
Doug aka BMTman
Bill Russell's "Penny Bridge" site discusses these old lines, if I can recall correctly. You can find it through the links page.
Q: Bway Express/2Av Local via Manhattan Bridge/63St
Brighton Bch, Bklyn-----Dean Av, Bx (Weekdays 6:30am-9pm)
Whitehall St, Manhattan----Dean Av, Bx (Weekdays 9-11pm and Weekends)
Q: Lafayette Av Shuttle:
125St, Manhattan-----Dean Av, Bx (Late Nights)
Express stops between Canal and 57St, via 63St to 2Av local
67St/2Av, Transfer:J,P,Z
72St/2Av
79St/2Av
86St/2Av
96St/2Av
106St/2Av
116St/2Av
125St/2Av
------------------------------------------
138St/3Av, Transfer: 6
149St/3Av, Transfer:2,5,J,P,Z
Trinity Av/156St
Prospect Av/156St
Southern Blvd/Longwood Av, Transfer:6
Hunts Point Av/Lafayette Av*
Colgate Av/Lafayette Av
Morrison Av/Lafayette Av
Soundview-Rosedale Avs/Lafayette Av
White Plains Rd/Lafayette Av*
Castle Hill Av/Lafayette Av
Brush Av/Lafayette Av
Balcom Av/Lafayette Av
E.Tremont Av/Lafayette Av*
Dean Av/Lafayette Av
* Express stops(Peak Direction Only)
Switches:
Hunts Point Av/Lafayette Av
White Plains Rd/Lafayette Av
E.Tremont Av/Lafayette Av
Storage Yard:
Between Hunts Point and Colgate Avs
Subway until Hunts Point Av, then elevated till terminal.
Trackage:
2 Tracks from 149St-Trinity Av
3 Tracks from Trinity Av till Dean Av
Any thoughts, questions, comments?.........
I have been told by a SEPTA Rep that 50-60 M-4s will be sent back to Elmira, NY because there floors will be rebuilt. Because of that te Almond Joys will be recruited back to service while this work is being performed. I dont know if that goes for the entire M4 fleet but I hope SEPTA follow thru with running the BUDDS in service.
What's wrong with the floors of these M4s being sent back to Elmira?
--Mark
THE BALSA WOOD IN THE FLOORS (USED TO REDUCE WEIGHT) IS STARTING TO FAIL, AND REPLACEMENT IS REQUIRED....MARK
The floors are warping and SEPTA dosent have the abiltiy to do the work so they will send the cars back. Youre right bring back the Almond joys.
Nothing that QUALITY construction in the first place couldn't prevent!
AdTranz does NOT equal Quality. Ask any property that has gotten cars from them.
Howsomever they are busily rebuilding the original Rohr junk out here for BART and so far-less than a dozen cars-the product seems okay as a rider. MTBF no data.
I didn't know there was a quality issue with Rohr - their 1000-series DC Metro Cars seem to be holding up quite well at the age of 24.
Wayne
Perhaps it was merely that they were delivered late, overweight, the on board/wayside ATC was so bad that BART started operations with manual block(complete with plywood shacks on each platform and telephone for the Tower person" to communicate the arrival and departure. Or maybe it was that the original brake hardware had to be redesigned because the MDBF was outrageous. Maybe it was that the seat cushion materials turned out to be toxic and every last one had to be replaced after the train fire in the transbay tube in 1979. On balance I may be prejudiced because Rohr a defense aerospace firm(two strikes and several fouls by definition) got the original bid with a figure for the first batch of cars by seriously low-balling the numbers beating out several "real" carbuilders who had offered more realistic pricing based on being guaranteed the next order. Rohr won, delivered late, and then when the second batch went to bid the price DOUBLED. Naturally since noone else had the tooling they were the sole source and built the cars. It may be unfair to tar Rohr for faulty sub systems built by others, but fiscally BART has been a notorious sinkhole. All that said I will probably be riding it until I die--they do provide a modicum of service, but the cost overruns then AND now are staggering. They are building a link to SF Airport which rivals PA Airlink in misdesign and cost--8 + miles @ $1.5 Billion and rising.
you couldn't have said it any better
Those Almond Joys are the ugly creatures. They would look better with chocolate around them. Scrap these sad looking Budd cars. Talk about a dinosaur!!!
What is the latest on replacing the gooey mess of carpet on MARTA cars with vinyl?
MARTA
We have just had several bidders bid on replacing the carpeting with a rubber floor. Car 199 is running around with an experimental rubber floor. Guess what, I rode a car with new carpeting yesterday morning. Yes the carpet is often Gooey on MARTA. The riding public is very indifferent to the carpet, jerky rides, and other problems. In fact, they laugh at the problems in public.
DO YOU REALLY THINK PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR THE "STUPID" COMMENTS THAT YOU TYPED. THE ALMOND JOYS HAVE LASTED 39 YEARS WITHOUT ONE MAJOR OVERHAUL. THAT'S A HELL OF A LOT BETTER THAN ANY CARS IN NYC OF THE SAME VINTAGE. MR. ROSENTHAL...KEEP THE NEGATIVATY TO YOURSELF
And you keep your caps lock to yourself!
Thank you Jack Arthur on comments by others. I have an opinion like anyone else on Subtalk an I have every right to post them.
My comments are not STUPID and that is my opinion of Almond Joys. They are ugly in my view. I have every right to express my opinion on Subtalk like you do. I never discussed the reliability of the Almond Joys. You brought it it.
The Almond Joys as your name indicates and cars are called are being replaced anyway. They will be scrapped like it or not. The new cars with have Alstom Signaling, AC propulsion by Adtranz. Time moves on.
Does anybody think that the M-4s should get the nickname Mounds?
'Cause sometimes you feel like a nut...
sometimes you don't!
Agreed!
With the calling the M-4 Mounds, or that sometimes you feel like a nut?
'Cause sometimes you feel like a nut...
sometimes you don't!
For us non-Phillie phanatics...whats an Almond Joy????
It's a stainless-steel subway car, a cousin to the R32. They were built in 1961 by the Budd Company. They are also known as the M-3.
Some of its characteristics:
Some are single cars, some are married pairs.
They do NOT have A/C.
They have two bumps on the roof of each car which house fans. (This gives them the name "Almond Joy" since Almond Joy candy bars have similar bumps on them where the almonds are.
Wayne
[They have two bumps on the roof of each car which house fans. (This gives them the name "Almond Joy" since Almond Joy candy bars have similar bumps on them where the almonds are.]
Wayne -
Actually each car has four "humps" on the roof. They house fans which were to "circulate the air four times per minute" as the Budd advertising stated. When the cars were delivered the fans were set to draw air out of the car, and as the cars came equipped with sealed windows this didn't work. Shortly the fans were reversed to bring air into the cars.
Otherwise Wayne's description is correct.
I minght add that some would say it gave the cars an ugly appearance. My comment is the cars with the distintive roof line had a classic look; however, I grew up in the Philadelphia area and remember when the cars were being delievered new in 1960.
BTW, There were 46 single unit cars and 112 permanently married pairs or 224, for a total fleet of 270. When all service on the MKT-FKD was rendered by the "new" Budd cars, the 45 minute running time was reduced between Bridge-Pratt to 69th St. by seven (7) minutes.
Jim K.
Chicago
Right on.
Actually the Almond Joys have four bumps on the roof, which are for the exhaust fans. There sure not cool in the summer but there still a lot of fun to ride although for how muck longer I don't know.
Folks—
Brief at the bottom of page 6 or 8 (I forget exactly which) in today's Daily News indicates Willy-B contractor is so far ahead of schedule they may reopen in "early September."
Methinks the target reopening time is now 5 am Tuesday, Sept. 7. Right after Labor Day, just as schools are reopening, just as most vacations are over and the work flow is getting back to normal.
Sounds almost too good to be true...
Michael
Mike Klufas, it is the ny Daily News thursday July 15, page 8, it is a small article.
I have that article in a file at home.
Ccharlie Muller of Bedford Park blvd.
Can anyone confirm this? Does this mean I soon won't have to travel on the (L)ousy line anymore?
(waiting impatiently for an answer)
In the NY Daily News Friday July 16, pages 6 and 7, is an article about the quality of life summonses soar. Beware, rude subway riders, underground slobs, smokers, fare-beaters and boozers. Police are issuing more summonese for quality of life in the tubes.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
It doesn't appear to me that police are enforcing begging or peddling regulations, at least on the weekends. On one recent Saturday on the 'E', there was a bad violinist; pre-teens 'dancing' to a very loud boom box and then passing the hat; a deaf(?)guy forcing sign language cards on people and turning around angrily when someone called him a phony behind his back; "I really hate to bother you people on this nice day, I know how annoying it when people stand in the car and go on and on about their problems, etc, etc."; magician; vendor guy setting loose his toy cars all over the floor. There was a complete turnover of such people every stop from 23-Ely to West 4th.
From what I hear, the '1' is even worse in this regard. It must be well known in beggar/peddlar circles that it's a popular 'tourist' line.
It doesn't appear that regulations against taking up too many seats, blocking doors or stand right/walk left on escalators are being enforced either.
I have seen peddlers removed and in fact have found a police officer who I then escorted to the peddler ansd have seen the peddler ejected.
Yes, the last car of the 1 Train is known to most West Siders as the Smoking Car!
Used to be the last car of the 4, 5, and 6.
Oh, I useually get "the sales pitch" on the N or R. It never fails.
Some better ones:
One homeless guy: "Even though all the food I get is free, I still have to pay for it" Huh?
A guy at Penn with a sign that read: "I'm a homeless vet, please give me money for boze and drugs."
At least he was honest...
Another guy at Penn asks me for a quarter - I don't have change. I get my ticket and food and he comes back. Now, understand, I'm've got *long* hair, fairly worn jeans, big black boots, a Corrosion of Conformity T-shirt, and I'm pooped because I've been travling all day.
He looks me up and down and says "Man, you're the ultimate burn out dude, can't you spare me a quarter?"
It worked. To date he's the only begger I've given too...
I'm amused by the cadre of Asians who peddle toy cell phones, glowing yo-yos, and other trinkets. "One Dollar! One Dollar!" as the toys ring their notes in unison. They all seem to have a bag of similar items. Does some organization organize these people (and wholesale to them for retail resale?), or are they all independent entrepreneurs?
Betcha 3 to 1 that somebody (Asian Mafia?) organizes these people. Asians are the most clannish people I know. Makes everybody else look like loners.
Look at all the "Little Seoul"s all over the place - won't find a Caucasian (or any other group) owned business in any of 'em.
Oh dear!.Is it neccesary to use offensive language when refering to asians?
> offensive language
What are you talking about? If you mean clannish that's not meant to be offensive... When studying history you talk about Roman clans and Irish clans and many other familial groups. If he had said "Klanish" with a "k" that would be offesnsive.
Mike
It might interest you that according to Webster's Ninth Colleqiate Dictionary, the term CLANNISH does not have a negative connotation. This is a list where we discuss transit issues and social issues related to transit systems. If words like clannish are offensive to you, I suggest you join a "Liberal Gramatical Nit-Pickers" list.
"Betcha 3 to 1 that somebody (Asian Mafia?) organizes these people. Asians are the most clannish
people I know. Makes everybody else look like loners.
Look at all the "Little Seoul"s all over the place - won't find a Caucasian (or any other group) owned
business in any of 'em. "
This is one of the many reasons why this site has turned into trash.
I must agree with David, the web site host and Steve. There are many good people here. Some very professional and really know their stuff.
But as David said there must be restrictions. Somethink must be done
before this site turns into stupid racist trash. Dave worked very hard and I am sure that he doesn't want the same to happen.
First it was high school students in Philly and now wacko posters who
don't give a s**t about anyone else.
re comment about Asian clanishness]
As I see things, a non-judgmental comment about an ethnic group's actions or characteristics isn't an offensive or racist thing. There are various behavioral things associated with different groups, though of course there are many exceptions. Commenting on one of these isn't necessarily bad.
I Did NOT post this message. If a message using my name does not have my e-mail address, I did not post it.
Another argument for the password system....
Amazingly enough, I've seen the one of the original dispersals. 125 and Lex early AMs, a large family is on the platform divvying up all the goodies as they begin to board all downtown trains. It really is a sight.
And these guys just LOVE the E train. But they don't like the R46!
Does ANYBODY like the R-46????
[Does ANYBODY like the R-46?]
No.
YES
The R-46 represents 1/8th of the NYCT fleet and is the largest single shop based fleet in the NYCT (There are more 62As but spread over several shops). I've been working with the R-46s since before overhaul(except for 2 years with the R-68s). Right now the 46s are just 2 engineering problems away from being the best performig car in the NYCT fleet. They are capable of becoming a 100,000 mile+ MDBF car within one year.
Can you elaborate on the 2 engineering problems? Inquiring minds want to know...
David
[The R-46 represents 1/8th of the NYCT fleet and is the largest single shop based fleet in the NYCT (There are more 62As but spread over several shops). I've been working with the R-46s since before overhaul(except for 2 years with the R-68s). Right now the 46s are just 2 engineering problems away from being the best performig car in the NYCT fleet. They are capable of becoming a 100,000 mile+ MDBF car within one year.]
"Can you elaborate on the 2 engineering problems? Inquiring minds want to know..."
Yes I can but it really would be meaningless for 99% of those who post and read here. Suffice it to say both problems relate to the NYAB electric brake and coupler control systems.
I must admit that I've never ridden the NYC Subway but as a frequent \bus rider (CNYRTA/CENTRO), Syracuse, I like the thing to work and get me where i'm going. If it does this, then I'm happy, If not -- Railfan considerations are NOT important in determining wether a vehicle is a success. MDBF and Safety are. If you like a particular vehicle, work to preserve it in a museum. When enough people work to preserve such things, then an operating environment can be created and those qualified persons who have earned the right, will not only be able to ride, they'll get HANDLE TIME.
After all the time and effort you've invested in the R-46, I can understand your reaction to the criticism. Sounds almost maternal. By the way, how many engineering problems did you have to overcome in order to have only two left?
I ride the R46 every day, and I like the R46. Let's face it, speed and transit do not go together. Nothing moves very fast on this system. The key is that aside from the peakest hour, I can get a seat, and it is comfortable. The AC and heat are fine. I haven't had a train go out of service on me in years. So I'll take the R46 on the F line.
There is a lot of nostalgia, and opposition to new stuff, in NYC. Once the shakedown is over, I'll take the R143 too.
I love the R46. Quiet, window seats, comfortable
lighting (the R68's are too darn bright inside) and
yes, plenty of seats. I wish they'd transfer the
ones on the G to the E, but I guess OPTO
considerations prevent that.
OPTO really has nothing to do with it. On Friday evening, all the 6 car R46 G trains are laid up for the weekend. The last 6 intervals leaving Continental Ave. (these terminate at Court Sq. on the way back and are" run arounds" till the midnite hours when some get laid up overnite) are 4 car trains--3 8 car R lay ups which are cut 4x4 and then placed into G service. You know that there has been a big deal recently about the conductor "pointing to the board". The TA would have to measure and put up 6 car R32 boards or 8 car R32 boards. They may not want to be bothered. I think 6 car R46 trans on the G work out well. A 6 car R32 G in Queens may be too short, an 8 car train may be too long. Plus the total number of cars needed on the E/F/R/G for full service may increase. And as it is, Steve and his staff don't have many spares.
I think that an 8 car R32 on the G would be perfect. It's really only 30 feet longer than the present day 6-car R46's. The R46 should be put on the higher-profile E line.
Unfortunately, Chris, you've must have missed this point the last time the subject came up. I can go down an F train. I can go down an E train. I can even go down an R train. The mucky-mucks may not like it but before I go down a G, I'd be required to pull a train from another service. I'd say that's pretty 'high-profile'. Besides which, what would I do with the A-A and A-B units?
"Sounds almost maternal."
For the sake of gender corectness, let's say paternal.
The R-46s are good cars. I thought they were good even before GOH. I still remember when their original speedometers actually worked. In recent times, I have ridden E trains of R-46s along Queens Blvd. which really got rolling along between Roosevelt Ave. and Continental Ave. Even my sister noticed once that her E train was flying.
Let's just say the R-46s are the only 75-footers I have positive vibes about.
entering 71st Continental Ave whether its an R32 or R46 your probably running around 45 mph and thats what i call speed! unfortunately youve got to drag uphill from 63rd Rego Park.
The R46 is OK. There are other cars I like better, but the R46 isn't bad. Wish list for R46: Brighter interior lights and put back the safety glass partitions next to the doors, like those found on the R44.
Wayne
> Brighter interior lights<
I was once on an R-46 that seemed abnormally bright. It took me a minute or two and I realized why... no ads!
Mike
I like the R-46, maybe because it, or the R-44 (what ran on the F around 1985-87?) was my first subway riding car. Although I would prefer the glass partitions near the doors like the R-44. Their brakes also make a nice smoother sound than other cars.
It is essentially a good car, is very reliable, rides comfortably, has good air conditioning (except inside the cabs which Steve explained why last summer), especially since the rebuilding process because there is no possiblity of P wire loss because it doesn't exist anymore. I just like using 2 hands to operate, I feel that the seat is too low. Because you are sitting behind a console as well, the train operator is much farther behind the vision glass than on 60' cars. The R32 operational position/seat is much higher. You are also right on top of the vision glass so you can see more when you are on top of an object without having to stand up and lean over the console.
Of course rail fans don't like the R44/46,68/68A because they can't look out the front window. I agree with that. As an inspiring motorman many years ago, looking out the front window taught me a lot about routes, signals and speed. I don't like the end doors locked. Yes, they are locked for good reason. People can get crushed to death as the train goes around sharp curves. But in the case of evacuation or if a stalled train is in front of your R44, et al and Control Center tells the train operator to key one door into the station and let people out that way, the crew has to make sure all the doors are unlocked by visual inspection and do likewise when you are ready to resume normally. Now, your train may be causing a further delay. You have to make all the end doors are relocked and make sure that nobody is trapped in between cars.
Formerly, I used to love R-46's. Now I just deal with them.
I deal with the R-44s and R-68s. It's a good idea to bring along a book to read, such as War and Peace.
Or the Tolkien trilogy - that should take you from, say, Kings Highway to Columbus Circle.
On the "Fast Track" - we enjoyed a nice ride on a VERY fast Redbird #2 train today, from the "reverse" railfan window. It had to be topping 45MPH southbound between 72nd and Times Square (with the obligatory slam on the brakes at the 50th Street GT's).
Wayne
Gone with the Wind comes to mind as well. Or even the Bible...
I'm surprised I didn't actually fall asleep on that A train of R-44s last fall. It had been a long day and I was tired, too tired to wait for another train of R-38s. I was denied the railfan cubbyhole when the motorman covered it up. It was one of the very few times I've ever sat on a subway train in New York since learning about the joy of standing at the soon-to-be-an-endangered-species railfan window, Canarsie line notwithstanding.
That IRT express run is outstanding, whether it's on a train of Redbirds or R-62s. That GT at 50th St. takes some of the fun out of it, though. I hope they don't ever do that on the runaway slope on 8th Ave. southbound into 42nd St. Even the R-44s manage to get up to 43-45 mph there. I'll bet the R-10s used to hit 55.
Aa I mentioned in my Railfan Trip#7, that run from Columbus Circle to PA is excellent, that R38 ROARED into the station.
What I mean is that these peddlers can't move from car to car in between stations.
My understanding is that many of these people are held in virtual slavery, forced to sell trinkets to pay outlandish debts for being smuggled into this country.
If memory serves, there was at least one story in the papers about just that within the last 12 months or so.
I believe you're right. The scary part about it is that conditions are so bad off where they come from that selling trinkets and living in squalid conditions is still a significant step up in the world for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[re immigrants being held in near-slavery and forced to sell trinkets on the subway]
You are right, there was a big scandal about a year ago. It involved deaf Mexican immigrants who were being forced to beg on the subway and were held in squalid living conditions.
I don't know whether the same is true of the Asian peddlers now seen on the subway.
When I worked the No.6 Line a Year back there use to be a bunch of Mexicans that would sell stuff and ride from Hunts Point to 3 Ave. You would see 4 of them on the platform and ofcause one would get on in the First car and make there way to the rest of the the train. Now on the No.1 Line I started noticeing Asians working the trains From 96 Street to 125 St. Mostly during the early morning hours and Middays. Theres also a group that works the No.2,3 Lines from Chambers to Clark Street on weekends.
They're the only source where I can get Krazy Glue for $1.00. While I strongly disagree with the circumstances under which these people sell their wares, they DO provide me with a much-needed source of Krazy Glue, which keeps the hundreds of statues and figurines Rosemary owns in repair.
Wayne
Well it happens on the 7 train alot also. The latest was a guy talking completely in Spanish, playing a guitar.
And there were a few people who gave too.
Is it me or does it seem that peddling in the subways on the rise? Lately, every subway train or station has a few peddlers. The 7, N, R, Times Sqaure shuttle seem to be the worst.
Even outside Penn station, peddlers are out.
I for one don't mind the musicians on the platforms or in the passageways, as long as they don't interfere with the passage of other people. When I'm in the City - mostly on Sundays - I've never had a problem. But the people who go from car to car peddling candy or junk or the ones who just plain beg for a handout are another story altogether. Ebeneezer Scrooge was right when he advocated sending a lot of these folks to the workhouse. The alcoholics and addicts have, by their own choice, become "surplus population", and while I don't advocate drastic measures I would like to see them taken off the street and forcibly rehabilitated. Those who are in similar situations through no direct fault of their own - the temporarily homeless, the mentally ill - should also be assisted so that they don't have to be on the streets and can get either the treatment or training they need to permit their return to society in a productive manner - or, if that's not possible (in the case of some of the mentally ill) provided a place to live where they will not be a danger to themselves or others.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I actually like musicians in the subway (provided they know what they're doing ;-). There are a couple guys I came across who played a mean sax.
I remember about a few years ago a few guys creating a makeshift percussian "band" in the Times Square station near the shuttle platform. They were using concrete buckets and such containers, and were dressed pretty raggedly, but man were they good! I wish I had a small tape recorder concealed in my pocket (which I occasionally do to record various subway and street sounds), and there was actually a sizable crowd surrounding them which broke into applause whenever the band finished a "peice".
A performance of some sort is also the norm at the mezzanine at the 42nd Street-8th Avenue station near the Port Authority entrance, and also on the Ferry.
But the peddlers and panhandlers I can't stand. Especially the persistant ones.
I've called RTO Control Center numerous times about vendors practically having garage sales on the platform at Lex/53 St. by the #6 transfer escalator. And I've gone down to WTC, came back and they were still there, and the dispatchers in Control Center sound annoyed when I call this stuff in, so I give up! A far as obstructions i.e. door holding: They can give out lots of summons' on the E especially at Parsons, Supthin, Roosevelt, Lex/53, 42, 34, W4 and WTC. And please, nobody lay on me the conductors don't give people a chance to get on. The doorways are clear, but in those 2 seconds it takes the doors to close and lock from the time the conductor presses the closing buttons, somebody or somebodies always come out of nowhere and start wrestling with the doors thereby making the train late. I cannot tell you how many times due to excessive door holding from WTC, I am late entering 7th Ave. and 5th Ave tower will put an F ahead of me which actually should be behind me.
You are absolutely right. Way too many people grab a closing door so that they can squeeze onto a train after the doors start to close. That doesn't explain, however, why a conductor asaulted me a couple of months ago. I was in the middle of a continuous stream of people entering a car. As I passed between the doors -- which had not started to close as I stepped between them -- he/she pressed the button. I walked around the rest of the day with a streak of black rubber on my arm. Needless to say, after I ricocheted off the door edge and made it into the car, the person directly behind me grabbed the door so that he could get on behind me.
If a conductor can clearly see a group of passengers and intentionally hits them with a closing door that is clearly wrong.
What about the cases when the conductor lets a large stream of passengers leave and before the first person on the platform is halfway in the door, attempt to close it? I've had that happen several times.. it's not like there's someone holding the doors for all the people running to catch the train but it's like the conductor is ignoring the fact that there are people who want to board the train as well as depart.
Mike
I've had that happen a few times. Sometimes I would ride the 1/9 from 59 to Chambers. It would be so packed at 59 that I would get past leaning on the door. At 50, many people would leave so as courtesy, I would step out and stand aside to let everyone leave before my re-entry. It's a great thing I always put my hand in the doorway when I do this. Because several times at 50, the conductor would close the door before I could re-enter. My strength prevented me from being left behind and I would ALWAYS get a seat at Times Square.
On the 1 Line lots of times on my first trip I get door Holding from 125 Street to Times Square. Normally I would pull into Times Square and the Tower every morning would ask me Why I'm I 8 Minutes late. Then I would tell him the stops of the heavy Ridership. Then I would get skiped 34 St,14 St,Chambers. The T/O how had the run before me also hade the same problem. Now at 34 Street they get mad that we are going to skip there stop so they hold doors even more and then I have to call Control and all they say is "Let me know when your moving". Sometimes the skip gets extended and end up Bypassing Courtlandt St, Rector St and go right to South Ferry. Now if you Conductor has a Tranvse then you have to wait for him the let the people go throw his position to get to the First 5 Cars.
I say give the moron A $100 ticket for holding the damn doors and making my train late!!!this is one of the reasons more trains can't be operated during rush hours simply because some idiot wants to catch THAT train. which in turn delays the train behind the one in the station and the one in back of that and the next one in back of that
it starts a chain reaction once one train is held in the station FOR IDIOTS that hold train doors open
wow that felt refreshing!
i'd like to see people on board the train throw someone holding the doors off the train...
In the Ny Post Friday July 16, page 16, is a article that subway crime dropped to its lowest level in a generation during the first half of 1999, despite a rise in murders.
Overall crime went down 12 percent from January to June 1999, compared with the same period in 1998.
When the good people of SubTalk read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
This is a true story from the 1880's of a baboon that operating a railroad tower. A photograph was included but not shown on Subtalk.
Baboon Worked as a Railroad Signalman
Signalman Jack was a conscientious worker for South African Railways in the 1880's. He always pulled the right signal lever at the right time and knew when a trainmen needed the key to the coal bin.
There was only one thing that set jack apart from the other railroad workers - Jack was a baboon!
The clever animal was such a good worker that the railway company paid him 20 cents a day - and gave him a half bottle of beer on Saturday.
Jack was the pet of James Edwin Wide, a railway worker who lost both legs in an accident and was given a permanent job as a signalman near Uitenhage, South Africa.
Jack quickly learned to do the signalman's work. he knew that one blast of the whistle of an approaching train meant Signal One had to be operated and two blasts meant Signal Two had to be pulled into position. When the engineer blew four whistles, Jack fetched the key to the coal bin and handed it to the engineer. Wide claimed that jack never made a mistake.
Jack's fame spread and trains often made a special stop at Signal Box 18 to see him in action. According to the report in the Cape Argus Weekly, Feb. 6, 1884:
"The cleverest thing he (jack) does is to work the lever to set the signals. This he does with an imitation of humanity which is as wonderful as it is ludicrous. He puts down the lever, looks around to see the correct signal is up, and then turns round to the train and gravely watches its approach, unconscious of the admiration among the passengers."
But some passengers were less than happy that their fate lay in the hands of a baboon so railway supervisor Fred Ormsby investigated. He was so impressed by the baboon's efficiency that he placed Jack on the company payroll with title "Assistant at Signal Box 18."
Jack was always helping Wide. Every day the baboon pulled his handicapped master on a small trolley to and from work. But Jack's day didn't end when he had taken his master home. He also helped Wide in the garden, carried out the rubbish and pumped water from the well.
The amazing partnership lasted nine years. then jack died. He was buried next to the signal box where he had spend his working life.
That's a great story!
I don't find it really surprising, though. Animals perform a number of jobs requiring intelligence and care. Look at the various kinds of service dogs--a seeing eye dog's judgment could make the diffrence between life and death for its companion, and they do it without the oversight that the baboon would have had.
I don't remember where I read it - but there was some dog in England who had a daily commuting routine on the train. He'd get on at one station, off at the end of the line, and come back in the evening. Nobody didf anything about it because apparently, dogs ride free, and he was well behaved anyway.
But there's a difference - unlike Jack the baboon, seeing-eye dogs don't get half a bottle of beer on Saturdays.
Does anyone know about the "monkey house" on the Lo-V cars. It was the motorman's indication box with two purple lights for indicating the conductors closed the doors. Also used on the Hi-V's.
The low voltage circuits on the Lo-V's were trouble shot with a light bulb called a "Gimmick". The 600 volt systems were tested with a bank of lights. Not hi-tech but it worked.
A gimmick light is a low-voltage test light which is wrapped
in tape so that if you accidentally test a 600 volt circuit
with it, it doesn't blow up in your face. Still used today in NYCTS
When is the rebuilt Franklin Shuttle scheduled to reopen?
Kevin Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sometime between Dec and Jan. Around the holidays.........
Not if you catch this month edition of "Transit Trainsit". They do a minute blurb that it is 5 months ahead of schedule. You see pix of the right away with MOW (Maintenance of Way) wire tain and a Track Geo car. You also see some tile work being done and the new overpass at Franklin Ave (far from completion).
They say Sept/Oct if all still stays 5 months ahead.
Whenever it is going to happen, I plan to be at the grand re-opening ceremonies w/o a doubt! (I'll put in for the day off if I have to!)
Doug aka BMTman
There was also a piece on one of the NY TV stations about a week or so ago; saying about the same thing..They showed the transfer corridor at Botanic Garden, etc etc..... All in all,looked pretty nice!
The jobs are up for pick currently. But because it is its own line, it can open before the next pick starts (coinciding with the WillyB reopening), and they would just use OPTO extra list personel, or open after the new pick starts and have those guys who did pick the line work extra list till that time.
Which would be the most popular transportation hub?
Franklin Avenue
Botanical Gardens
Prospect Park
When I use to travel this route in the late 60's and 70's, Franklin Avenue was always the busiest. I expect that to remain the case, but with the new transfer to the Divsion A lines, this might change quite a bit.
It depends on the point of view. I, being an IRT guy, the transfer would have came in handy during my High School years. Instead of taking the crowded 4 to Atlnatic for the D, I could have taken it Franklin, transfer to the shuttle, to PP, and transfer to the D. But then again with the travel time of the shuttle, maybe it is better to take the 4 to Atlantic. Another way the shuttle comes in handy is the going into the other direction. Instead of taking the 4 to Fulton to catch the A to Queens, you can take the Shuttle from BG to Fulton and transfer to the A.(Fortunately, I do not have that problem now since I live by the L where another transfer should be in place). So I guess it can work out to anybody adavntage. But with the construction on the Brighton, Im pretty sure the transfer will come in handy. For regular passenger service during rush hour I do not know. Better taking the D to Atlantic where a lot more people get off the 4 and 5.
In the spring I went to Salem, MA and the Amtrak train I was on went to Boston via Springfield. Along the way I noticed two or three abandoned stations along the way. Of course we were going too fast for me to determine where we were.
So what are those abandoned stops?
Kevin Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
If you traveled every railroad in america, you'll find literally hundreds of abandoned stops, even entire abandoned lines that formerly had commuter service.
-Hank
I'm not sure which station buildings Kevin saw, because its been a long time since I've been on the route. Palmer, MA was an important stop before the Amtrak era. North Haven, CT, had Amtrak service for awhile, but the stop was discontinued.
Now that I'm within three weeks of my planned trip to New York, I was wondering what type of cars are on the Sea Beach and Brighton Beach lines. Those are the two I will ride first, although I'll probably ride my Sea Beach until the cows come home. Is there a great variety of cars used, or are they mostly standard by now. And---are there any Triplexes still used and on what line. I'd appreciate some answers from my fanatical lodge brothers on the net. Chao!
what type of cars are on the Sea Beach and Brighton Beach lines.
The Sea Beach Line has R-68s, R-32s and lately I've heard some R-42s or R-40Ms, if I remember right.
The Brighton Line has R-68s serving the D line and R-40 slants serving the Q line.
are there any Triplexes still used and on what line.
The last Triplex to run in revenue service was July 23rd, 1965. Sorry but you're 34 years late :)
--Mark
I don't think the Sea Beach Man knows what a R-series car is.
The Sea Beach N is either R68 or R40slant, with an odd R32. The Q is either R40slant or R42. The D is all R68. Thats as of 7/16/99.
The N has R-42s as well. Saw some Sunday (7/18).
--Mark
Yes, I saw some as well on June 4, my last time on the "N". They wear mostly higher 4800-series and comprise what looks to be the entire 4900 series cars. A handful of R40M are sprinkled amongst these R42s.
I believe these cars are the NYCT Rebuilds as opposed to the MKCo Rebuilds, which are still out at Eastern Division.
I rode up front in #4934 from 59th to WTC. Slow as molasses out of 59th, (GT's, of course) but once past 36th Street, we rolled good, almost as fast as a Slant R40. A classic express run.
Wayne
I started the cars of the Sea Beach a week ago and am elated to see that it has continued. I have learned a tremendous amount of information just reading this subject. What are the oldest cars still in use? What line are they on? I would like to ride these when I come to New York next month. Can anyone supply that information?
The oldest cars still in use on the IRT are the R-26's built by ACF in 1959-60 #7750-7859.
The oldest cars on Division B (BMT-IND) are the R-32A built by Budd in 1964-65 #3350-3649 and the R-32 built by Budd in 1965 #3650-3949.
These two groups are now collectively referred to as R-32's.
The oldest cars on PATH are the PA-1A built by St Louis in 1965 #600-709 and the PA-1C built by St Louis in 1965 #100-151.
SIRT uses only one class of cars the R-44 built by St Louis in 1972-74
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R26 and R28 cars are found on the #5 line, sometimes on the #2.
The R32 cars are found on the "A", "C", "E" and "N" lines.
Other oldies but goodies:
R29 (#8570-8805), St.Louis Car, 1961-1962, found on the #6,#5
(in numerical order: 8570-8693 on the #6, #8694-8805 on the #5)
R33 (#8806-9305), St.Louis Car, 1962-1963, found on the #2 and #4
(9220-9305 on the #4, all others on the #2)
R33WF (#9306-9345 [9306 is a museum piece]) St.Louis Car, 1963
found on the #7 line
R36 (#9346-9523; #9558-9769) St.Louis Car, 1964
found on the #7 line EXCEPT for #9478-9522, found on the #6 line.
R36ML (#9524-9557) St.Louis Car, 1963-64 found on the #6 line.
R38 (#3950-4149), St.Louis Car, 1966-1967 found on the "A" and "C" lines
Wayne
I wonder if any documentation exists as to which R-32s were originally assigned to which Southern Division route. They were first assigned to the Q in the fall of 1964, followed by the N in early 1965. and finally the T that summer. Admittedly, I'm riding a nostalgia wave right now, since we were still in New York and taking the subway 34 years ago today. After taking another N train to Manhattan, we went on the Circle Line. The previous evening, we visited my father's cousin who lived on 72nd St. just off New Utrecht. All evening long, I was mesmerized by the rumbling sound of trains entering and leaving the 71st St. station. Unfortunately, my ears couldn't tell the difference between a train of Triplexes and R-27s. I would have loved to go for a ride, but that was out of the question. Who knows? Maybe a Triplex train would have pulled in first.
I have added the 8AVEXP designation to my handle in honor of the occasion of the 34th anniversary since the beginning of my love affair with the New York subway.
Steve: Congratulations.
Your the Sea Beach Man and you don't live in Brooklyn, New York!!! What gives? What planet do you live on? The D types haven't run on this line in-service for 40+ years. The R68 and R68A run on this line. Guess what, New York City Transit as opposed to the BMT uses stainless steel cars without the hand thrown rivets.
Have a good time riding this slow and sluggish line until the cows come home. No cows in Brooklyn however.
Chao? I thought she was that exciting women on TV!!!
WHEN SOMEONE HASNT BEEN IN A PLACE FOR A LONG TIME, THEY ASK ABOUT IT. MR. ROSENTHAL, IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT GIVE RAILFANS A BAD NAME. DO YOU THINK IT'S RIGHT TO CRITICISE SOMEONE FOR ASKING AN HONEST QUESTION?
Fred: There are two types of cars normally found on the Sea Beach Line. These are the R-68's and the R-32's. The R-68's predominate but if you have a little extra time wait for an R-32(aka Brightliner).
I say this because the R-68's from a railfan point of view have a serious design fault in the full width cab. This places the railfan two doors back from the front window and usually the view is limited to a small hole on the inside door. The R-32's on the other hand are railfan friendly and have a large front window in the front of the car as is proper.
I don't know what your exact plans are for your trip but if you want e-mail me a RebdirdR33@hotmail maybe our paths will cross when your in NYC.
Please keep using the Mr Sea Beach or any other handle your comfortable with. I seem to recall that you were the only one with precise info on the use of R-11's on the Sea Beach in the early 70's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There are also a lot of R40's on the N as well as 68's and 32's
Hey RedbirdR33. Tried to E-Mail you but didn't get through. Was it a typing error or is it really RebdirdR33? Maybe I should have tried that. I'll be staying at the Pan-American Inn on Queens Blvd from 8-6 to 8-19, with three days in between for a trip to Cooperstown. Hope to made contact with you and hopefully some of my other colleagues on the net.
Fred: It should be RedbirdR33@hotmail. I don't know if the address was wrong but I haven't gotten any e-mail messages recently so I don't know if there's a fault with the system or nobodys writing. Have you seen the recent posting about trains using the express track of the Sea Beach Line due to track work? I rode the northbound express once on a regular N train and the southbound express track on an NX. I believe the solid block from King Highway to 8 Avenue is the longest such in the system.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey RedbirdR33: It sounds to me like I might have a real burn when I ride my Sea Beach next month. I can't believe the TA can screw things up the way they seem to have done. Why all the delays in getting the routes up to snuff. I'm going to have to ride the "D" until I get to 36th Street so I can cross the Manhattan Bridge which I can't on the Sea Beach. Oh well, we have our screw ups here in California as well. It still ought to be fun riding the rails----shouldn't it?
No, DeKalb, not 36th. And you should take the Q unless it's a weekend because the Q is a once Broadway Express. I've never liked the N. Maybe because I was only 2 when it was screwed up and almost my entire life it's been the "Never" with the R being the "Rarely." I never remember the line over the Manhattan Bridge, or express in Manhattan or via the Queens Boulevard line. In fact, the line was ALL LOCAL until I think 1993 when they made it express in Brooklyn weekdays. Then theres always the fact that the line is a walled cut, making it boring and ugly. Not to mention the utterly useless nonstop express tracks and most of the stations are or were awful looking (they still don't have any charm or beauty).
At platform level, it won't win a beauty contest, but the station houses are nice. 20th Avenue is a good example, but they're all essentially the same. They should do something about all those leaks that are eroding the stations' concrete walls. Several of them are mini-Chambers Streets. Also that uniform and putrid shade of beige - it simply has to GO. An utter lack of imagination. Can't they come up with ANYTHING better than that?
Wayne
I can agree about all that. Especially the beige.
Think of this...Parkside Ave. on the Brighton line is identical in construction to 86st., Ave U, Kings Highway, Bay Parkway, 20,18 Ave, And New Utrect ave. And look at the great rehab. (Tiled walls, New floors, Bright red paint, ETC.) I guess we will have to wait until the lines 100th birthday for any inprovements. lol......Mark
Mark: Sea Beach man doesn't like that at all.
Jack: Ouch! You hate the Sea Beach, that's for sure. That bothers me in that you now see it as an ugly train. I agree that the Express tracks should be utilized, and the Manhattan Bridge used, but there was a time that many besides me loved the Sea Beach Line. To me it brings back only pleasant memories, like #4 (my favorite number when I was a kid and the endless mini-tunnels from New Utrecht to Avenue U, I believe. We're influenced by our experiences, no doubt. Sea Beach Man signing off
Actually, it's the fact that the express tracks don't stop anywhere between 59 and CI that makes them useless, if they stopped perhaps at New Utrecht Avenue and Kings Highway or Bay Parkway, then they would be useful.
The original idea was for Kings Highway to serve Express trains, That is why at both ends of the station the Express tracks have crossovers. ( Talk about bottleneck...). Tha ability was and is there. Does anyone know if they ever stopped Expresses at the Highway?
AFAIK, there was never any plan to have expresses stop at Kings Highway. That was not the purpose of the Sea Beach express tracks. Nor was there a regular stop by scheduled trains taking the Sea Beach express tracks.
When it became evident that the NX was bombing, threre were suggestions that it run express from 59th Street to Kings Highway and then all stops to Coney Island or Brighton Beach.
This might have saved the service, but the TA, which inaugurated the NX only as a sop to Brighton passengers annoyed by the loss of Broadway-Brighton Express service, was just as happy to see it go.
The original intent of the Sea Beach Express tracks was to serve the rapidly growing interest of Coney Island as a tourist destination. It would have provided the fastest service to Coney Island from DeKalb Avenue having only 3 stops - Pacific St, 36th St, 59th St - until the terminal at Coney Island.
Express service didn't last very long, and the express tracks became the testing areas for the new BMT equipment coming in, as well as the IRT automated shuttle SAM in the late '50s.
With the Coney-Island bound track about to be ripped up, would it make sense to build an island platform at some stops, say New Utrecht Ave and Kings Highway, for some future express service?
--Mark
< With the Coney-Island bound track about to be ripped up, would it make sense to build an island platform at some stops, say New Utrecht Ave and Kings Highway, for some future express service? >
That would be a great idea!
Therefore you can be sure the TA won't do it.
When the Sea Beach Line was first openned in 1879 Coney Island was much more of a resort area than the amusement park which it later became. A trip to Coney Island in those days could be a journey of several hours even from the Bronx. Steamboats from Manhattan ran to the 61 Street Pier where passengers transferred to the Sea Beach Railway to reach Coney Island. So trips to the area were made for extended multi-day stays. The popularity of the area as a resort was so great that three great amusement parks where built there;Steeplechase,Dreamland and Luna Park. These park were on a scale comeasurate with say todays Disneyland. By 1890 the Fifth Avenue El had linked up to the West End and Sea Beach Line and some time after that through service was possible from Manhattan to Coney Island shortining the trip by three or so hours. A one day round trip was now possible and this became even more so with the tie in to the Fourth Av Subway in 1914. As the number of one day visitors to the parks increased there was a corresponding decrease in the area as a seaside resort. Those who could afford it went to vacation areas further afield.
In retrospect it does seem that the Sea Beach was over built. It went from being a two track line to a four track and the two express tracks were only for through service to the beach and only for about two or three months out of the year. At least the Brighton Line was equipped for express and local service year round. It is also interesting to note that express service was never operated as intended on the Culver and West End Line. It would lead one to conclude that even by 1918 demand had dropped although Coney Island certainly attracted large summer crowds up until the late 60's.
The NX operation was a short lived sop to Brighton Line passengers as someone else has already observed. It would have made more sense to run the NX only to Coney and as a local south of Kings Highway turning back the regular N's at that location.
The use of the remaining express track as a testing groud is probably
the best use that could be made of it.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't think it's reasonable to think that any agency would keep transit cars running for over 70 years.
I think it's quite possible, though at some point not economical. The museum Triplexes can still run.
If you scour rosters, you can probably find equipment that made or came close to the 70-year mark, such as some of the elevated trailer cars which started life a steam coaches.
If fate had been a little kinder, the Triplexes could easily have remained in service for 50 years, if not longer. Unlike the R-16s, which were limping by the time they were put out of their misery, the Triplexes were still running great when they were sent to slaughter. The main reason for their premature retirement was the TA's decision to standardize IND and BMT rolling stock (60-foot cars) in anticipation of the opening of the Chrystie St. connection and resulting merger of the two divisions.
The R-32s have served the Sea Beach nearly continuously, either providing base service or supplemental service, since they arrived in 1964-65. While they have appeared on virtually every IND and BMT line over the years, I immediately think of the N when the R-32s are mentioned. Wednesday will mark 34 years since I first saw and rode on them.
[If fate had been a little kinder, the Triplexes could easily have remained in service for 50 years, if not longer. Unlike the
R-16s, which were limping by the time they were put out of their misery, the Triplexes were still running great when they were sent to slaughter. The main reason for their premature retirement was the TA's decision to standardize IND and BMT rolling stock (60-foot cars) in anticipation of the opening of the Chrystie St. connection and resulting merger of the two divisions.]
Could the Triplexes been retrofitted to accept air conditioning? Note that the impracticality of retrofitting is the main reason why the R-30s had such a brief life span.
< Could the Triplexes been retrofitted to accept air conditioning? Note that the impracticality of retrofitting is the main reason why the R-30s had such a brief life span. >
I think that would have been make-or-break for the Triplexes. I don't see how it could have been economical to retrofit them, even if it were decided that the basic car was so solid that it was worth retaining.
However, it must be realized, when thinking about the era when there was no a/c no the subway that conditions (at least on the BMT and IND which had larger cars) were not at bad during most of the hot weather as might be imagined.
In the pre-a/c era, when you didn't have trains pumping heat into the tunnels as now, the tunnels were somewhat cooler. The open windows, vented clerestory roofs, fans and high ceilings made for some pretty decent ventilation when the trains were moving.
The turtle-roofed R-types, with their "forced air ventilation" were much poorer, IMHO, depending heavily essentially on blasting the passengers with warm air to try to provide ventilation. This increased the need to actually air condition the cars.
Plus, I don't think I was ever uncomfortable on an open-sided BU.
I think you could retrofit any car with an ogee or clerestory roof with A/C units (at the ends) and ductwork (in the crown). However, do you have any idea how much additional weight that would have added to the D-Types? And they were super-heavyweights to begin with!
BTW - the Sea Beach has seen all kinds of equipment over the years -
BMT Standard, "D" type, R1, R4, R16, R27/30, R32, R38, R40, R40M, R42, R46, R68, R68A. I don't think I ever saw R10 there, nor R44. I also don't think I ever saw R7/R9 after their fiberglas seat retrofit there either. I saw R16 briefly in 1976, right after the "EE" was eliminated.
Wayne
If the Triplexes had been retrofitted with A/C, one must wonder if they could have operated on any elevated structures at all, let alone the Manhattan Bridge. Assuming that A/C adds 10 tons to a car's weight, you'd be talking 115-116 tons per Triplex. Timmmm-berrrr!!! Chances are they would have to follow today's N route, using the Montague St. tunnel.
In case I forget to congratulate you on Wednesday, let the Sea Beach
Man be the first to congratulate you now on the anniversary of your first riding on "my train". Some people have a talent for remembering dates, and I'm glad the first train you rode was the Sea Beach. By the way, I'm arriving in New York on the 6th of August, and after attending a Mets game that night, I'll spend much of Saturday riding the rails. Guess which train I'll ride first? Well, maybe not first. I have to go from the Pan-American Inn in Queens to where I can board the Sea Beach. Then it's on to Coney Island. Take care.
Thanks, Fred. I was all of 8 years old at the time. In fact, on this date today (the 20th), we were at the World's Fair, having ridden in from Linden, NJ into what was left of Penn Station, then took the LIRR out to Flushing. On the 21st, we drove over the Verrazano Bridge to Brooklyn, where were stayed with relatives. They lived on 3rd Ave right on the BQE (Gowanus?) We must have walked over to the 36th St. station and boarded there to go to the Empire State Building. To be honest, I can't recall exactly if the train was an N. I do recall vivdly the shiny new R-32s and in particular the green illuminated upper destination signs which were set to "57th St." I also recall crossing the Manhattan Bridge on the north side tracks. Because the West End Express (3 or T) didn't run during middays on weekdays (and when it did, it ran to Astoria), I've concluded that it was indeed an N which introduced me to the New York subway system on that unforgettable red-letter day, one which will always remain etched in my memory.
I still regret I didn't see any Triplex trains, which by then were running on the West End. We did ride on the West End to 71st St., but it was presumably on a TT of R-27s or R-32s.
#4 Sea Beach, I answered your questions maybe with a little bit of humor. I WAS NOT CRITICIZING YOU. Accept my apology if it is appropriate. Read some of the other posting regarding that it is unreasonable to have cars in service for over 70 years.
Guess what, I have been a railfan myself for more than 30 years. I can't give them a bad name.
#4 Sea Beach: I think I inadvertantly caused a little heat to rise between you and Mr. Rosenathal. I don't believe he meant any harm but I do know sometimes we say things in such a way that it can be miscontrued. I have asked some questions since I've been online on this site that could be considered bizarre by some, but so far everyone has been friendly and helpful that it would be inconsiderate for me to name names because I would leave some people out. I like your title. I still remember the Sea Beach as the #4 train, and it sort of bugs me that that number is assigned to the train that goes to Yankee Stadium. As one who lived in New York until the mid 1950's the Yankees were a hated entity. Some of my colleagues on this site gave me the name Sea Beach Man and I grabbed it. I'm not ashamed to say I
love the title. Drop a note and let me know what went on when you rode the Sea Beach. Was it your favorite like it was mine?
Hey #4 Sea Beach: Where are you from and how long has it been since you lived in New York. It has to be long time because the Sea Beach hasn't carried the #4 markings since 1964. I got the shock of my life waiting at 57th Street for the Sea Beach back in 1974. It was my first trip to NY in 20 years. When I saw the "N" sign I really got teed off. When they told me the #4 train was now the Woodlawn-Jerome Line to hated Yankee Stadium it ruined my day.
The #4 was the Woodlawn-Jerome line in the 50s too. Since 1948 (49?)in fact.
Jack: Thanks for that info. I had no idea that two trains would carry the same number. Then again, one line was the BMT, the other the IRT. I guess it makes sense. Tell me, did the Jerome line carry the #4 above the train? I saw some old pictures of the Jerome Line and saw no number displayed.
Route numbers started to appear on the IRT in 1948 with the delivery of the R-12's. None of the pre-war equiptment was equipped to display them and it seems that the numbering of the IRT Lines started in 1948 since they included #8 Astoria and #9 Dyre Av.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The IRT number code was adopted when the R-12s first arrived in 1948. Since the R-12s and, for that matter, the R-14s and R-15s were all assigned to the Flushing line initially, that was the only IRT line whose trains carried any markings (7) until 1955, when the R-17s first appeared on the Lexington Ave. local, which was designated as the 6. Once the Jerome Ave. line received new equipment, its trains started carrying #4 signs. Basically, if you remember the way the signs were arranged on the Triplexes, this was carried over to the R units initially.
Just as there were some BMT number markings which never appeared on rolling stock (6, 8, 9, 11, and 12 come to mind), there were two IRT markings which weren't used. #8 was set aside for the Astoria line; by 1949, the BMT had taken over this route. The 8 marking was used on maps to denote the remaining portion of the 3rd Ave. el in the Bronx; however, when a group of R-12s ran there in its final years, they were marked, "Shuttle". #9 was assigned to the Dyre Ave. line, but by the time new rolling stock was running there, it had been tied into the rest of the IRT and 2 trains were plying its rails.
You may be wondering why the first postwar cars were assigned exclusively to the Flushing line at first. The reason was their doors would not line up with the gap fillers at Union Square, Brooklyn Bridge before the platforms were shifted to the north, and South Ferry. By the time the R-17s were on the scene, the situation had been remedied.
Steve: The R-12's entered service on July 13,1948 and through IRT service to Astoria did not end until July 25,1949 so the #8 sign did see some usage.
The #9 sign was carried by the Dyre Av Shuttles once R-equiptment was assigned to the line. I lived on the Dyre in the early 60s and did see the shuttles with that number. This practiced seems to have been discontinued when the #5 was extended to Dyre and after that all trains were referred to as #5's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,RedbirdR33 & Steve B aka 8AVEXP: You guys are great! But you are slowly creating a monster. I'm catching up to you guys in my knowledge about the NYC Subway System. I should catch you both in 20 years. Thanks!
I stand corrected. I have a postcard of the R-15 at the Transit Museum with a 9/Dyre Ave. sign prominently displayed. There must have been a shuttle service during certain hours back then even after the Dyre Ave. line was tied into the rest of the system. Didn't 2 trains run to Dyre Ave. prior to 1965? IIRC, they swapped terminals with the 5 on June 13th of that year.
There's no substitute for eyewitness accounts, though.
Through service on the Dyre Av Line started on May 4,1957. Alternate #2's provided service from 6am to 8pm, after 8 pm (on weekdays) the #2 switched from a Dyre/E180-Flatbush route to a 241-New Lots route. Shuttle service ran from 8p-12 mid there was no midnight service at that time.
All night service began on June 27,1958.
The #9 service complemented the #2 serivce rather than replace it the way todays #6 Pelham Shuttle replaces the #6 Lexington Av Local.
This was most evident on the weekend when the #2 Dyre-Flatbush service ran until 8 pm and the E180-Flatbush service ran until 12 mid.
The #9 began running at 8pm and for a four hour period East 180 St was served by the #2,5 and 9.
When the #5 was switched to Dyre Av on April 18,1965 the #9 began functioning as the late night replacement for the #5 thru trains and lost is separate identity.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This excellent information belongs in the Line-by-line section, IMHO. Thank you, Larry!
Steve; Thank you, my first trip that I can remember on Gate Cars was on the #9 when it only ran as a shuttle between Dyre Av and 180 St-Bronx Park.(Old NYWB Station)
Larry,RedbirdR33
The old NYWB building now serves as the entrance to the 180th Street station proper - it is a lovely four story mission style building, complete with NYWB seal and a Mercury Head sticking out. The former entrance on 180th Street itself is GONE.
Wayne
[Gate cars on the Dyre]
Larry, do you have a date on that? I think we're about the same age and I'm wondering how I missed that.
The only gate cars I ever rode on in regulkar service were BUs on the Myrtle.
If we had a detailed, comprehensive list of service changes then maybe. Right now it would stick out like a sore thumb since very few of the line-by-lines have such information. Anyone want to compile a complete service history (not just 1958-1965)?
David; The infomation is available to cover most service changes from the early 1900's onward. Records are spotty of course from the early part of the century but most major service changes can be covered and from the 1930's onward virtually every change can be documented. The rub is the time involved to research the info and fact check it in/so/far as is possible. I would estimate that it would take 2 or 3 people six months to a year to complete the project and then you would need someone who is computer savy to put it on the website. Naturally one could not document every single GO but certainly long term shutdowns like the Willy B and Franklin Av Shuttle not to mention the chronic problems of the MannyB would be included.Perhaps the project could be done in sections say the IRT from 1904 to 1918(H System),then 1918 to 1939, the BMT from early 1900's to 1939, etc.
Larry,RedbirdR33
< Guess what, New York City Transit as opposed to the BMT uses stainless steel cars without the hand thrown rivets. >
I swear New York City would still be buying and using LAHT Steel cars if the Budd Company hadn't shamed them into allowing an increment for stainless steel.
The BMT is dead as a doornail these 59 years (to paraphrase Dickins' reference to Jacob Marley) but would still be a more modern operator than New York City Transit.
I remember riding on a D-Type on the Sea Beach on August 8, 1964.
As for the R32s, they're still going strong. Not much wrong with them. They should see 40 years service, with a little luck, 50 years.
Wayne
Today, at 3:15 PM, a 24 yr. old women was hit by a shot fired thru the glass on a route 75 trackless trolley. More to follow....
Chuck Greene
I believe that drag races would interesting on New York City Subway. For example, start two trains with one the local and one the express track and see who wins. Could be interesting.
Speed Test:
Who would win:
E b/t A
D b/t N
B b/t M
C b/t b
F b/t J
G b/t R
I want two know.
New York City Transit could make alot of money by installing slot machine in stations and trains. Just think of it that you can bet your money while waiting for the E Train. Then continue on the train. In fact the Metro Card program can be extended for slot machine. "Swipe and Win" will be the slogan.
I always thought that riding NYCT was a betting experience!!!
They could run those slot machines on the brand new subway to the Governor's Island Casino and fund it that way.
Yeah or we could legalize prostitution in the subways and use unused token booths as mini-brothels.
11pm to 5 am 7/20 to 7/23/1999
R train- no trains. Free shuttle bus from 36th/4th to 95th.
B is NORMAL.
N runs in two sections
1-Astoria to 34/Broadway (on N line) Northbound skips 49th.
2- Stillwell to queensbridge. Runs on B line from 36th/4th to Queensbridge via Manhattan Bridge. Express stops on 6th ave.
STATIONS CLOSED:
Brooklyn: 95,86,77,Bay Ridge Ave on the R; Southbound plats at:45,53,59,8th ave,Ft Hamilton Pkwy,New Utrecht,18av,20av, Bay Pkwy, Kings Hwy, Ave U, 86 on the N; Norhtbound plats at: 25st, Prospect,9, Union, DeKalb ,Lawrence, Court, City Hall, 34(Local).
Manhattan: Whitehall (N Bound), Rector, Cortlandt, Canal, Prince, 8, 14,23, 28,49.
SOURCE: Official Bulletin SD-272-99
What is THAT all about? Sounds like trouble in the tunnel. I hope its just routing maintenance.
It's most likely for continuing tunnel lighting work.
-Hank
It looks more to me like it's part of the general TA plan of getting people used to bus service during the night hours.
It follows the TA's general pattern of reducing all rail service except rush-hours. It can be seen in the idea of shutting down all Manhattan expresses overnight (hasn't the Upper West Side had express service at night for the last 95 years?). Shutting down Coney Island routes over Memorial Day weekend was another example.
We will then go to all-bus service for about five years and then Boston-style total shutdown between midnight and 5:30 a.m.
If the people could get the system back from the TA, such nonsense wouldn't be happening--revenge could be taken at the ballot box, the way the political system is supposed to work, and light bulbs could once again be changed without diverting six routes for three nights.
Ed Alfonsin (only about one-ninth humorous)
Potsdam NY
I don't believe your doomsday scenario will ever happen, aand I'm not going to comment on it further.
But as for the tunnel lighting, it's more than just changing light bulbs. They are installing all-new lighting systems that use cheaper and more efficient compact fluorescent lamps on several lines, including the 1 above 96st, and the river tunnels. The 1 has been skipping stations and running on single track in the overnight hours for much of the last 2 years for this project, which also included renovation of the fan plant at 168st. Was there yesterday, and the station is a lot more comfortable than it used to be.
-Hank
If someone has the time and inclination, it would be fascinating to do a study over, say, the past 30 years, in 5 year increments, on the TA's frequency of closing stations and lines overnight and on weekends to do maintenance and other work. I can't support this, but I would bet that the closings have gotten more frequent in recent years. One might argue that as the system gets older, more work is needed. But there's also a feeling that the TA cares less today than it did 20-30 years ago about the inconveniences passengers face when lines and stations are closed overnight or on weekends. (For example, why not run the northern section of the N under the New G.O. as far south as Whitehall St., so all those Manhattan stations don't have to go without service.) I'm not sure Ed's doomesday scenario should be dismissed that quickly.
I think it's more because 15/20 years ago, no work was done and the subway turned to crap. Now, they have to not only make up for that, there also is new work that needs to be done.
Lots of luck to those of you taking the Promotion to T/O test tomorrow.
There was a thread below about why doesn't the #7 Flushing line have a station for the UN at First Ave.
Between the '39 and '64 Worlds Fairs (my sources show it was open from 1946 to 1952) there WAS a UN station located just west of the present Shea Stadium station on the Port Washington branch, Does anyone know anything about this station? Did the UN have some sort of facilities in Flushing before the UN building was built on the east side of Manhattan? I'd appreciate any information you may have.
I'm not sure about the UN station, but I know there are remains of the Elmhurst station (still open when I was a kid), and parts of the turnoff for the Whitestone landing branch (which was, amazingly, electrified, then abandoned a few years later)
How is the whitestone landing branch visible.
A single track trails off from the westbound track of the PW branch just east of Shea Stadium. This was part of the old Whitestone Branch which discontinued service in 1932. The connection has been severed.
Some of the old Elmhurst station remains, including, I believe, the pedestrian underpass east of Broadway. I can't see any sign of the old Corona station though.
Kevin Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
Ever since Bob Anderson was nice enough to email me a modern map with the Whitestone route drawn on it, I've wanted to pace the entire route. No one from here has ever taken me up on a hike. I did a portion of it around the site of the College Point station. But it is fairly interesting to imagine what it was like. I think also I saw a rail.
But anyone know how far the tracks go after they split from the Port Washington Branch?
Trying to follow the old Whitestone ROW sounds interesting. Maybe an idea for a fantrip?
If enough people are interested, why not? I'm just not good at picking dates. Although this would probably, due to the length and the time it would take to do, I'd say a weekend walk or drive would be in order.
I dont think there is much left to see. I remember when I was kid driving overhead on the Whitestone Expwy, you could actually see scrappers cutting up some double decker cars along the Whitestone Branch, just north of Roosevelt Av. About 1/4 mile of the whitestone line was kept open thru the 1970's as a scrap line site. However, during the early 1990's all the remaining track was ripped out and scrapped on site- all rail and frogs cur up into 4 foot long pieces was a sad site- all that 100PS rail and #6 frogs destroyed. I think all thats left to see are a few old 3rd rail ties hidden by 4 foot tall swamp grass. I believe the tracks once crossed the creek on a small wood trestle, ran through what is now a street, and then up on a 20 foot high embankment- torn out in the 1930's to make room for housing- just like the Manhattan Beach branch was in Brooklyn. The easiest way to get into the former yard site is travel east on Roosevelt Av, as you come to the bridge ramp, make a right hand shift off the bridge, you go right down to the R of W, maybe thats were a freight transfer point to trucks used to be.
Bring lots of DEET and a metal detector, maybe they dropped some pieces of ping -pong cars.
[re double decker cars being scrapped north of Roosevelt Avenue]
Presumably those were the old double deckers used on the LIRR until the 1960s or thereabouts. As far as I know, not one of them were saved. Quite a loss.
There is one that got away. Its in Riverhead at the RMLI site. They also scrapped some G5 steam locomotives on the Whitestone Branch too. I'm not too optimistic though, about anyone turning up an old bell or headlight.
Yes, the doubler decker was the *first* one built - no electric equipment (darnit). Anyway, it's a neat car (I've been in it), but man, is it cramped. I've heard that passengersa hated them, conductors hated them, and cleaning crews hated them, though I wasn't aware that the LIRR cleaned their trains.
[Yes, the doubler decker was the *first* one built - no electric equipment (darnit). Anyway, it's a neat car (I've been in it), but man, is it cramped. I've heard that passengersa hated them, conductors hated them, and cleaning crews hated them, though I wasn't aware that the LIRR cleaned their trains.]
Is it true that these old double deckers do not actually have two levels? I had heard that there was only one aisle, with riders stepping up or down into the seats. Contrast that with the current double deckers, where there are two aisles. Is my belief correct?
Yes, I remember that many, if not all, had a single aisle. I loved em. To the great perterbence of parents, I would shove my way through the crowds at Jamaica like some sort of linebacker, to get those hi- level seats. The goal would sometimes not be so sweet, if I got a seat that was facing backwards.
The UN, before opening its doors on First Ave in the early 50's, was located at the current Queens Hall of Science, I believe. In any case, they were based for a time in Queens at the old World's Fair site, somewhere.
-Hank
The UN did hold its early meetings in the New York City Building of both the 1938/39 and 1964/65 World's Fairs. This building currently houses the Queens Museum and the scale model of NYC. The Hall of Science is a short distance away and was built I believe for the 1964/65 World's Fair.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't know just what the connection is, but on maps of the 1964-65 World's Fair two pedestrian overpasses that cross the Grand Central Parkway, together forming a loop, were labeled as "Avenue of the United Nations".
I don't believe that this was a reference to the UN per se, simply a reference to "all" of the nations having come together at the World's Fair.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
According the MTA's schedules, during the AM Peak it takes the F 16 minutes to travel the 9 stops from Jay St to 34th St.
It takes the B 18 minutes to travel the 4 stops from Pacific to 34th St. That's slow.
And it will remain slow as long as there are only 2 tracks available on the Manhattan Bridge. I think it's time they seriously thought about replacing those tracks with tunnels.
The Manhattan Bridge repairs remind me of the repairs to a certain ice rink in Central Park. The repairs were completed virtually over-night after someone new was put in charge. Does anyone rmember who fixed the ice rink? Do you think he would like to fix the bridge, too? As I recall, the building of the White Street jail was accelerated by just floating a rumor that he was going to be put in charge.
Donald Trump took over the repair project on Central Park's Wollman Rink.
-Hank
And, for some odd reason, I don't think he will want to take charge of repair work for NYCT.
Oh, I remember: he wants to build some new apartments at the old NYCentral railyards on the west side, but didn't want to help expand nearby stations to deal with the increased usage.
Maybe the TA should have him manage the repair the bridge instead of paying for the stations.
That would be The Donald, who did it soley to show up then Mayor Koch. I don't think he hs a problem with Rudy, though. LOL.
Two reasons for slowness:
One: Traffic (3 lines on a route intended for 2)
Two: Grade timers, and a policy of running well below the posted speed.
lets consider a few facts before considering the travel time betw Pacific st and 34th street. Between Pacific st and Dekalb avenue including the bypass tight curves guarded by grade timers. if using the DeKalb bypass this track merges with local track from Dekalb av stop which means it may meet a train that has left the station already. The upgrade approach to Manhattan bridge and 25 mph GT which never clear above 23mph. Have you thought about trains in front of the B? there is also D & Q service. During rush hour i'd always be plugged by what ever was in front of my train. 4 stops means nothing without considering time of day(rush hour=more trains=traffic)
That's exactly the point. The bridge grade/traffic/signals/curves/switches mean lousy service. Another reason to replace the bridge. At least in a tunnel you pick up speed toward the center of river but lose speed coming into a station on the other side -- the grades are the "right" way.
The TV News the other day quoted Pataki as wanting to replace the Tappan Zee Bridge which is 45 years old. I found it revealing that he did not offer to replace the Manhattan Bridge.
Is it too late for New York City to form it's own state and not deal with Albany.
There is no way the rest of the country would allow New York State to split, and get two more Senators. My idea is for the area south of I-84 to join New Jersey. They all hate us up there anyway, and they would surely support in since they would be free of the financial "drain" to the city. NJ spends relative more on transportation and health care than New York, and less on health care. Since elections are competitive, it is a more progressive state.
When I left NY forty years ago, all motormen and conductors were male. The only women I saw were in the token booths. From various posts I am getting the impression that women are now in train service. This should not surprise me for women are now delivering mail, climbing electric and telephone poles, delivering for UPS and even patroling as police officers. It's just that the last time I was in the subway, it seemed to be male dominated and as a result that's the way I remember it. I have no problems with women running trains but am curious about the ratio. Does anyone know? Are there as many women as men in train service?
Karl B
There are lots of women in NYCTA. They can do any title. I have seen women Track workers. But there are lots of women Conductors, Train Operators, Tower Operators, Dispatchors, T.S.S, and some SUPT. Also TA can not Discriminate.
Thanks for the response Dave! I guess there is very little chance of my ever getting back to NY but if I ever did, I sure would have been shocked to see a woman running a subway train. When I left in 1957 all of the jobs you mention were held by males and not having seen the gradual change over the years, I would be thinking that everything was still the same. I'm sure women are as successful in the transit system as they are as police officers and firemen.
Karl B
Well, here we go.... I almost hate to bring it up but...... I perceive a definite difference in the way men and women view their jobs in transit. What I'm about to say does not hold true for all but represents a large majority of the people in transit (RTO especially).
Most of the women view transit as a job - that pays better than being a receptionist or a bank teller. Very few ever say, "I've dreamed of driving a train all my life." The tower operators- ditto. Most of the men - more than half, anyway - enjoy the idea that they are playing with the largest electric train set in the world. If this site is representative of the TA as a whole, I think my point is made.
BTW - Subway Buff is the exception that proves the rule and I would love to see her become a train operator...
Haven't you ever heard a woman complain that men never seem to outgrow the need to play with their toys?
And I hope I never DO outgrow it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They say the difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Look in my garage and I know they are right.
Hmm... my trains vs. her Mustang convertible. Are we supposed to evaluate it on a per unit basis or on the grand total? ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Depends on what year the mustang is and what vintage the owner is. We all keep our books differently.
Then again there's my trains in the basement and 3 motorcycles in the garage. My wife has the garden and the BBQ :)
There are a number of women who are members in their own right of some of the train collectors organizations. Many are married to men who have no particular interest in trains or model railroading. I met a woman several years ago who had her own operating Lionel train layout that she built herself. Her husband had helped her with some of the carpentry work in constructing the platform but did little else on the actual layout. With this in mind there's just a chance that some of the women in train service in NY Transit might also be train collectors or model railroaders. These women may also feel that while working they are playing with the "largest electric train set in the world".
Karl B
A story from a day at a "trainshow" Another David and I were trying to spend money on small electric trains at the Cow Palace. After a while I noticed a couple moving along the vendor tables. SHE was avidly looking at the trains and clearly interested, and SHE(2) had the steotypical look of the long suffering wife who was along for the ride but had no real interest in the trains. Hey y'now we're all posting here 'cause we like these noisy clunky gorgeous things. (side note as to verbiage--in the electrical and plumbing trades short pieces of pipe are 'nipples' and various others terms may well have sex based origins)
Like male and female eletrical connectors?
I am not necessarily saying that this is a bad thing, but Women in Train Service has done 2 things: it has made the guys watch their sometimes "salty language" in the crew rooms and has changed car equipment terminology. I think Dave wants to keep the G rating here but we used to refer to the angles as angle c***s, the horn/whistle on/off switch on the R36 and lower as whistle cut out c***s, the "points" on the old R44/46 console keys and skate (door operating on R44/46 and zone keys on R40/42 before Westcode) keys as t**s. And finally the most illegal keys which all RCI's had was t**lesskeys which they used when the t**s on the conductors key wore out and messed up the key switch drum. Whenever that would happen, the motor instructors would want to inspect our t**s! I don't know how many people I've confused, but Steve and the operating people know what I'm getting at.
Many years ago there was a fime Otto Premminger movie called "Anatomy of a Murder" in which Lee remmick is raped. Her husband (Ben Gazarra) kills the rapist leading tot he courtroom drame. During one scene, the judge admonishes the packed courtroom that part of the testimony referred to Lee Remicks panties and he would not tollerate any laughing or snickering. That brings us to today.
As long as we are all adults here, ther is nothing wrong with calling things by their proper names - even if those proper names may have sexual connotations when used improperly. If one were to look at the LIRR DE30AC locomotive, above the platform, there are several decals identifying the brake cut-out cocks. The keys Bill was referring to were referred to as tit-less keys because the little keyway had been removed so off-centered key switches could be centered. Now, since these are common usage names and not meant to tittlate - I see nothing wrong with their usage.
BTW - I did post that my grandd-daughter - a junior train buff does view this site from time to time. Bill did apologize privately for his posting. This was very much appreciated but wholely unnecessary.
Steve is correct: nothing wrong with using proper names.
One of my jobs involves ordering replacement electrical and electronic parts/supplies. Common nomenclature for plugs, sockets and other fittings is "Male" or "Female, and are listed in catalogs as such to avoid any confusion as to what you are ordering. Part numbers or end-view pictorials do not always give the necessary information.
I also work with setting up sound and lighting systems for concerts. Ends of power, microphone and lighting control cables are always referred to as the "Male end" or "Female end", and have been for years. It is easy to explain this to non-technical student helpers who are setting up a show, sometimes for the first time; they understand right away, do their jobs correctly and never have to be told twice what the difference is!
If you truly haven't been back to New York since 1957, you'd be in for a culture shock. A subway ride costs ten times as much as it did back then. Ebbets Field and the Polo Grounds are long gone, as are Penn Station (Madison Square Garden sits directly above it) and the old Metropolitan Opera House. Carnegie Hall, thankfully, is still there after being threatened with demolition. Nowadays, the World Trade Center dominates lower Manhattan the way the Empire State Building dominates midtown Manhattan. Ellis Island now serves as a museum of immigration; the main building has been magnificently restored.
Getting back to topic, as long as a woman can do the job and do it right, I have no problem with that.
I left NY in 1957 but have been back on several occasions, the most recent in 1982. These were weekend visits by automobile (arriving late Friday night and leaving on Sunday afternoon). Since time was precious I couldn't very well excuse myself to my relatives to go take a train ride. I might have wanted to, but I didn't have the courage to suggest such a thing to my relatives. As a result the most recent model I have ever ridden on was the R-17.
My point was that I was a transit fan when I left in 1957 when all train service employees were male. That's the way I remember it and to see a woman as a motorman now would really surprise me. I am really pleased that women have come so far in NY transit.
Karl B
Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Basically, every piece of subway rolling stock which was in service in 1957 is gone now. The oldest Redbirds, the R-26s, arrived in 1958.
Maybe it's just as well you didn't ride the subway in 1982. Back then, the entire system was on the brink of collapse, and every car was covered with graffiti. I missed that entire period myself; I left for Colorado in September of 1980 and didn't visit the city again until October of 1984.
I've seen a number of pictures of graffiti covered subway cars as well as several snapshots sent by friends. It's an era that I'm glad that I missed and I'm thankful it's over.
I still have hopes of getting back to N Y for the sole purpose of riding the subways once again after a forty year absence. A recent arrival from "The Big Apple" here tells me that I had better hire six armed bodyguards to accompany me on a foolish trip like that.
I sure hope that it is not that bad!
Karl B
No, it's not! Certainly there are places where I would be more careful than others, and there are many places where I would not go at night, but I rode the entire system, mostly on weekends, during the first six months of 1996 and continue to do so as time permits. And while I'm not quite over the hill yet I am a grandfather!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WOW!! What kind of agency has 6 armed bodyguards? Are they humans? Are they victims of genetic research gone sour (or sweet, depending on the goal)? I have really got to see these "people."
BTW, do you know how many legs they have? or (clears throat) other extremities?
Thanks for the chuckle! You have a vivid imagination.
Seriously, I think my friend was just trying to scare me about conditions in the subway nowadays, and you know, he did!
Karl B
No, it's not that bad. Just use common sense.
I remember the graffiti epidemic all too well. Very depressing. Hopefully, the system will never sink to those depths again.
Since the beginning of my life is mentioned here, I find it worthy to ask this: What cars were in service in 1982 and on what lines? What did the interiors (and exteriors too) on the pre-GOH R-26 to R-46 look like? (I rode the R-46 many times which is why it's my favorite car but I'm too young to remember, it could have even been the R-44). What was the retirement schedule of the pre-R-26 cars? (and R-27/30?)
Back in 1982, all postwar SMEE cars were in service, along with the R-44s and R-46s. The R-62s were a year away from arrival. I was away from the scene at that time, but it's safe to say that equipment was sent everywhere and anywhere in order to fill schedules as much as possible. The R-16s and R-27/30s seemed to be shifted around the most.
As the R-62s and R-62As were delivered beginning in 1983, the single-unit cars on the IRT except for the WF R-33s were phased out, beginning with the R-12s. The R-68s and R-68As began replacing the R-10s and R-16s, along with the R-27s. None of the single-unit cars went through GOH except for the WF R-33s, and even then they did not receive A/C.
As for paint schemes, the silver-and-blue job dominated the fleet underneath all the graffiti. It's possible that some of the WF R-36s still had their original teal blue and white colors, as they were not repainted the first time around in 1970-71. It was about in 1982-83 that someone came up with the brilliant (tongue firmly in cheek) idea to paint the cars white in order to get the graffiti off as soon as it was applied. Huh?!? It didn't really accomplish anything in that regard. Interior-wise, the R-44s and R-46s look much the same today as they did then, except for the electronic signs. On the outside, they had a blue stripe on their body panels. I won't elaborate much further; I'm sure one of our other regulars can pick it up from here.
One virtually all-male bastion is the LIRR's engineer corps. Women conductors are common on the LIRR, and Metro North has a fair number of women engineers (I don't know enough about NJ Transit to comment). But in more than two years of daily commuting on the LIRR, taking different lines and many different trains, I've only seen two female engineers.
Here in Chicago, there are plenty of women working on the CTA system, but you rarely see a female conductor or trainman (that IS the official title, marked in gold letters on the worker's hat!), and never a female engineer, on Metra. I think I've seen two or three women conductors or trainmen in all my time riding Metra.
NJT has some female engineers. PATH also has some female engineers. I have ridden NJT and PATH trains with "All female crews"
I don't see a problem with women as engineers just so long as they know what's going to be required of them and to always expect the unexpected. Later, Salvatore.
With my past few trips in the city, I've noticed that the IRT 6 trains
and IRT 1 and 9 seem to be running less frequently. I never remember waiting 15 minutes for a train, but lately waits of 10 to 15 minutes are common. Trains arrive overr-crowded with barely room to get in.
To make that worse, the stations are hot.
It seems the trains are running slower lately. Today I took the B to Coney Island. Because of construction work, the B had to run on the Sea Beach line going southbound. It did run express, but at an average speed of 15 to 20mph it was not much of an express. Plus, Sea Beach has some really ugly stations, plus the open cut walls are full of unsightly graffiti. Except for the Coney Island yards and Stillwell, the Sea Beach (N) line is pretty much a drag. Also got stuck at red signals twice.
Going back the B ran on it's regular route, which was slightly better, still a bit crowded. The B really aint anything that special.
I took LIRR from Mineola to Penn, and to be frank, I liked the LIRR scenery on the main line a lot better than anything I've seen from the subway. It goes through alot of single family home areas in Queens, and we can attain good speed between Mineola and Jamaica, and Jamaica and Woodside. Plus I like the tunnel lighting much better, with those bright orange-pink lights instead of the dingy bulbs they have in the subway.
However we did not go full speed in the tunnel since a train was ahead of us. I notice they use something similar to subway signals in LIRR tunnels. However the red and yellow were flashing. Any sites or places where I can find out about LIRR signals?
Anyway, I took the 7 train back, it was short one car and packed. Lately the 7's have been unbearably packed, with poor A/C. Now it's short one car, which makes it more crowded. Max speed was only about 38mph, this was a 7 Express. The operator's door was open so I could see the speed meter.
Anyway, getting back home full of sweat, I think next time I'll take LIRR both ways, and keep the subway trips few as long as it stays hot.
Best scenery for the day was definately on LIRR mainline, got good Jamaica yard views plus views south and west toward the city, plus some nicer areas west of Jamaica.
I really don't see what the LIRR commuters are complaining about, the A/C on the cars works good, the trip is fast, and the seats are comfortable. If the A/C don't work in one car it works in another, it is a big train. Subway inconveniences are worse. Today for awhile there was no E and F trains, forcing hoards of people to board the R.
If I commuted into the city, I'd much rather use LIRR than the subway, in the summer anyway.
The problem with the E/F around 3 PM was a smoke condition in the tube between Manhattan & Queens...... You say 38 MPH is slow! That is fast for a NYC subway train under todays standards!........ Finally, the #7 air conditioning: it was soooo hot Friday, you have to realize that the just the broiling sun beating on the cars and windows will practically negate the benftrs of air conditioning. All you will get is a slight temperature differential.
Regarding the LIRR complaints, AC failures during rush hour are a real disaster because many trains are filled to capacity. If everyone flees two cars because they're hot, the remaining ones will be jammed beyond imagination.
Dave has an excellent site and while he supports free speech, the first ammendent DOES have limits/ You can not go into a crowded theater and scream "Fire" or walk into a bank and yell " This is a roberry" or while on a flight " We are going to Havanna".
One poster used a handle that is in very poor taste. Even newspapers dont print that word and I'm sure Todd would tell us that WCBS 880 would not use that word on the air.
I am an adult but we do have children posting to and browsing the site. Would you want your kids exposed to this TRASH!
Please let us act like the decent adults I am sure all of us are. When you pick a "Handle" think of what it sounds like. There are valid reasons for using handles but a shock handle is out of place.
IF you agree with Steve (Trainmaster 7) and myself please e-mail dave OFF THE SITE. let's not take up his space with garbage and let's not give this jerk any further response. Maybe the poster will go away.
Um, Is it safe to say my name is not offensive? I can always change it to Roger or William. Really, I can. LOL.
Well lets see I can change my name to Van Courtlandt Dave, Woodlawn Dave, Dyre Ave Dave, Parkchester Dave, IRT Dave
What's wrong, can't change it to Wakefield Dave? (241 Dave just isn't the same).
I think that Subway Buff's point was well stated. I don't see the need to prolong it or make a joke about it. You were not the object of her objection or mine. Why not post when you have something constructive to add.
I am interested in finding out if there are any pictures in
existance of the circular bar Mr August Belmont constructed
beneath his hotel. It had a direct conection to the IRT tunnel
where he could board his private Railway Car to take him to the
Race Track.
I do architectural miniatures and this project intrigues me. I
already have a picture of the Railway Car The Mineola.
Thank You for any help you can give to me
Stuart Gootnick
I was wondering what picture you have of the Mineola? Pictures of Minnie are very rare on the IRT. August Belmont was a person that kept to himself and I think it would be difficult to obtain a photo of the the Belmont Hotel bar. Good luck. If you find it I would be interested.
Will the rebuilt Botanic Garden station have a free transfer to the Franklin Avenue IRT station (#2, #3, #4, #5r)?
#5r = #5 rush hours to/from Flatbush Ave...
Does anyone out there have an official word, as there seems to be a blurb about that?
Was there any particular demand for that transfer?
Yes, I have heard that there will be a free transfer. It should be especially useful during delays or G.O.'s on the Brighton Line.
So far as I knowk, yes, there is to be a free transfer between FS and the IRT. This will of course allow either BMT Brighton riders going to the city to transfer to the IRT in case of a 'police action' or 'train delay' and vis-versa for IRT riders. On a cautious note, however, I have yet to see any construction that would indicate that the work for such a connection was in progress.
That in itself is one of the best improvements made to the Franklin line since its creation.
Doug aka BMTman
The line by line section on this site mentions something about it.
You cant tell from the Franklin Av Station.(Although there are boards around the police station on the Flatbush/New Lots Side....) But if you were to exit the station and walk towards the Botanic Gardens Station, you would see some type of construction for a transfer. It was clearly visible when I first noticed it in May......
Will the transfer from Franklin Ave. to the IND at Fulton St. be totally enclosed or will it require a walk to the street level like it did in previous years? That neighborhood is the only real reason I would never use that transfer and an enclosed transfer would probably make commuters feel safer.
I went through the station today and found a large plywood enclosure at the North (Manhattan end) of both platforms. tnis looks like ti could conceal an exit stair or escalator or elevator to the Botanic Garden Station.
Yes, the transfer will be enclosed, with elevators and escalators, as well as stairs. But neither this or Botanic Gdns will be that much use to "allow...BMT Brighton riders going to the city to transfer... in case of a 'police action' or 'train delay'" as Doug put it because the line will only be able to take 2 car trains, because of short platforms, and you'll only be able to run but so many trains to Franklin because of the single track. Seems like a waste to me.
You mean to tell me that the entire line will only be one track????
no, just north of Park Place, which is about 1/3rd of the line, and this will limit the number of trains to Franklin in the event of severe service problems on the Manhatan bound lines.
There will be an enclosed passageway crossing Fulton St. I guess this will be access to the Manhattan Bound side. It look like this walkway over Fulton will be glass enclosed. That is all for now....
In 1972, I donated money to bring the Mineola car to BERA. A list was of the donars was promised to be displayed in the car when it's will be restored. I wonder if that will ever happen?
Only if they can come up with several million $ to complete the job.
(that was the last estimate I got from them).
I had asked them if restoration would be done in time for the 100th Annivesary.. The answer above is what I got.
Only if they can come up with several million $ to complete the job.
(that was the last estimate I got from them).
I had asked them if restoration would be done in time for the 100th Annivesary.. The answer
above is what I got.
Hello Allan. If that's the answer you received, then you did
not receive it from an official or reliable source.
Please understand that the IRT parlor car known as "The Mineola"
was received by the museum in very poor condition, having been
stripped of all its running gear and used outdoors as a shack.
I wish it were possible to wave magic wands and make first-class
restorations happen overnight, but reality is a downer.
The museum has made progress towards the full restoration of the
car. First of all, the components needed for under the car,
which had been stripped and sold for scrap when the IRT junked the
car, have been acquired over the years. Second, we have had
several respected professionals in the field of wooden artifact
restoration assess the piece and prepare a written estimate of
the cost of restoring it. That figure ranges between $250,000
to $1,000,000. Having that assessment performed is vital for
fundraising. The restoration will not be performed by museum
members, but by one of these professionals, owing to the rarity
of the piece and the high level of skill required to properly
restore it.
As for fundraising, I'm not at liberty to discuss details, but
be assured that we are cooperating with the NYCTM and other
parties in the New York City arena in this regard. I won't
promise any timelines. Since the project will take 2-3 years
to complete once undertaken, check back in 2001 or 2002 and
if nothing has happened, it will be safe to say that it won't
be done by October 2004.
Jeff,
It was from a reliable source but let's not dwell on it since you have provided more up-to-date info.
You state that NYCT is involved? I would watch them and the parent MTA very closely. I am full aware of what transpired regarding Money Car "G". I recommend that as the 5 year lease nears an end that someone keep a close eye on that car.
At some point in time will the restoration/fund raising efforst be made know to at least the BERA membership?
Allan
BERA # 1705
The summary version is that announcements would be made when there
is something substantial to announce. We don't want to mislead
the public, members or otherwise, by saying that something is going
to happen unless we know the resources are there to make it happen.
In the meantime, the artifact is housed, periodically inspected,
and available for viewing, such as it is, by appointment.
I will email you "offline" to discuss any other issues you might have.
Subtalk is an excellent bulletin board for subway railfans. Several users have tried attacking my comments. I admit that I sometimes include some humor but I am entitled to my opinion like anyone else. Many times I try to set the record straight on misconceptions of ATO and train control systems.
Lets keep it civil and I will do the same.
Mr. Rosenthal is correct, the new cars will be repaired and WILL replace the "Almond Joys". it is the job of the nostalgia buffs to fund and arrange for the preservation of one or more of the "Almond Joys". Criticism, if any, should be aimed at those responsible for allowing these ALLEGED deficiencies to exist in the new cars. Taxpayers and transit customers are entitled to quality products for their dollars and maybe an investigation is in order. but Mr Rosenthal is one of the most knowlegable posters on Subtalk and his opinions carry weight in my opinion SAVE A COUPLE ALMOND JOYS WORK WITH A MUSEUM but don't look for them on the 5:15, they'll be as EXTINCT as that candy bar I ate a few minutes ago.
First off, Web TV has been temporarily banned from posting to this site. Too many recent offensive posts have originated from there. This affects "good" webtv users as well as "bad" for the time being. Please don't mail me to complain. I have no idea who the "good" or "bad" people are since I have no way to identify a webtv users' real identity. A system to provide better access control should be in place shortly.
Thank you Dave. My eldest grand daughter (7) frequently surfs this site, especially on Friday night when she sleeps over. It is unfortunate that we must all suffer since valued contributers such as Erik - Mr. Transit Professional, uses web TV. I'm sorry that this drastic step needed to be taken and i hope it's resolved soon.
Interesting--the first test is, I suppose, whether this response is posted.
Dave, I think this is a bit unfair -- as your message implicitly recognizes, it tars both good and bad posters with the same broad brush, based on nothing but their ISP. Certanly WebTV is a somewhat stigmatized domain. It's a low-cost service, catering to those who do not own home computers; and, yes, I must admit, based on the general level of Usenet and bulletin board postings from WebTV, it has more than its share of the subliterate, the sociopathic, and the clueless. But is it really reasonable, or just, to exclude all members of an entire demographic group -- however identified -- in terms of a presumption which may, for all I know, be stastistically accurate as concerns the group as a whole? That way may well lie...well, all sorts of uncomfortable analogies.
Hoping you can straighten out whatever problems you're alluding to with the particular WebTVers involved, and with sincere appreciation for your efforts in ringmastering this most entertaining and informative circus,
Alan Follett
Interesting--the first test is, I suppose, whether this response is posted.
Dave, I think this is a bit unfair -- as your message implicitly recognizes, it tars both good and bad posters with the same broad brush, based on nothing but their ISP. Certanly WebTV is a somewhat stigmatized domain. It's a low-cost service, catering to those who do not own home computers; and, yes, I must admit, based on the general level of Usenet and bulletin board postings from WebTV, it has more than its share of the subliterate, the sociopathic, and the clueless. But is it really reasonable, or just, to exclude all members of an entire demographic group -- however identified -- in terms of a presumption which may, for all I know, be stastistically accurate as concerns the group as a whole? That way may well lie...well, all sorts of uncomfortable analogies.
Hoping you can straighten out whatever problems you're alluding to with the particular WebTVers involved, and with sincere appreciation for your efforts in ringmastering this most entertaining and informative circus,
Alan Follett
Oops! And, confirming everybody's worst suspicions about WebTV clients, I seem somehow to have double-posted the message.
Tragic irony? Poetic justice? Or what?
Alan Follett
The last post was written about Dan Lawerance comments. Not written by KKK Dan himself.
read "Repost Read last two" and the one after that I wrote those two not Dan.
I've signed onto SubTalk today to read through the postings as it is a "rainy day" in Chicago I'm I still didn't get out of my place yet. It is a relaxing way to spend some time and from time to time I'm able to add to an answer, relate some history, or provide some information. I enjoy SubTalk!
However today, instead of constructive, cordial and informative exchanges, the postings looked to me more like the exchanges in the General Assembly of the UN. Has this happened because of current thread on the UN?
Gentlemen, I've been a SubTalker for over a year. There have been times that things got a "little heated"; however, today, it appears that a full moon is on the rise.
SubTalk is a great forum that Dave provides for us. I write to him off-line sometimes to tell him that and I also told him in person when I meet him in Philadelphia. My friend Ed from Potsdam and I, look for SubTalk to be a place where civil discussion and exchange of ideas can take place.
Yes, every one has their opinion, even I get opinionated from time to time. And yes, I respect the right of the opinions of others. But, it is no pleasure to sign in to SubTalk and see the barbs going back and forth, and sides being taken to boot. This is juvenile and one would expect it from 7th graders.
Enough soapbox! Let us take SubTalk to the goals that were intended when David Pirmann set it up - civil, cordial and informative exchange of ideas and experiences – whether you are a railfan or not.
Jim K.
Chicago
Agreed!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Silence makes bores the nasty. If someone insults someone personally, perhaps the thing to do is inform the Webmaster and ask that the post, or the poster, be dropped. All two year olds crave attention.
I agree. And see my comment posted under the WebTV and SubTalk thread.
I received some second hand news about rail freight options in NYC (not confirmed), and the news is not good.
First on the Hell Gate Bridge. You can removed some steel and run TOFC (trailers on flat cars) over the bridge, but you cannot removed enough to get double stacks through without reconstructing the arch.
As for Brooklyn, you can dig out the Bay Ridge Division deep enough for TOFC without hitting the Buckeye pipeline, but you'll undermine foundations if you go lower, and raising all the bridges and rebuilding the ENY tunnel is cost prohibitive. Moreover, trains would not surface until Ft Hamilton Parkway.
In any event, once you get beyond Jamaica to the East or the Bronx to the north, you conflict with commuter traffic.
I think the best and cheapest option to move goods into and out of the region is to rebuild the Tappan Zee with rail -- Metro North could use it too, and there is a dedicated freight track on the Hudson line. Trailers and containers could be put on trucks at Port Morris.
How about this as another option: make rail float-barges bi-level so more freight cars (meaning speedier service) can be moved between Jersey and the Bay Ridge terminal of New York & Atlantic. I still feel that the tried and true float-barge technique is the quickest and most cost effective method there is, barring some kind of incredible donations from the state to build a rail tunnel or redo the Tappan Zee or Hell Gate bridges.
I don't know about rail-equiping the Tappan Zee. God forbid there should be a derailment on it -- what a plunge! And the mixing of both rail and vehicle traffic on one structure is usually a rare thing (subway lines excluded).
Doug aka BMTman
I just can't imagine the stability problems (let alone the loading problems) of a double-decked rail barge.
If the traffic warrants, they'll simply purchase more barges and contract more tugs.
-Hank
The problem with the float bridges is that you have to disassemble and reassemble a train. That takes too long.
I wonder if it would pay to take trucks over by barge. Trucks to New England could bypass the bridges and be dropped off in the Bronx -- those to Long Island could be dropped off in the vicinity of the end of the LIE, and those to Brooklyn could be dropped off in Sunset Park.
Unless traffic is backed up, its much faster to drive. But if the trucker could time his break for the trip, and sleep or chow down, it might not be such a time loser. How fast are those barges anyway?
FYI the Verranzano truck toll is something like $60.
The toll on the VN is $7/axle, so an 18-wheeler (with 5 axles) would be $35, and a standard vehicle with commercial plates would be $14.
-Hank
Double stacks can't get as far as the Hell Gate bridge due to inadequate clearances in the Bronx and Westchester. In particular, the Broadway Bridge that carries the 1/9 train over the Harlem River is too close to the tracks below. Note that the Oak Point Connector hasn't changed that state of affairs.
Under the circumstances, the best we can hope for is increased regular freight traffic into NYC - something that already seems to be happening, now that CP has trackage rights south from Selkirk over the CSX east-of-Hudson line and there's been a pickup in cross-harbor float traffic. Although the double stack and TOFC terminals presumably will remain in New Jersey, better access for regular freight should help take some of the truck traffic off the road.
Larry--
Do you mean the Tappan Zee or the Poughkeepsie Bridge? I think there would be riots if you tried to close several of the Thruway lanes on the TZ--how many lanes would be left for rubber-tired traffic if you reassigned space to rail?
The Poughkeepsie Bridge could be rebuilt without interfering with other traffic, and there could be access to freight routes on both sides of the Hudson. Some eminent domain might have to be exercised on the west side of the river to connect with the old West Shore.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
There would be great difficulty in reactivating the Poughkeepsie bridge at this point in time. As has often been said before on this site, once a right-of-way is lost it is very difficult to get it back. On the Highland side it is long gone, with houses on the ROW within less than a mile of the abutment. On the Poughkeepsie side many of the RR overpasses have been removed so that today's higher trucks can pass underneath (many of the old overpasses were 12' 0" or less). I grew up in Poughkeepsie and have many fond memories of watching trains inch across the bridge (it had an 8 mph limit in its last few years); a photograph of a steam train on the bridge with the ferry below, taken by my great-uncle in 1938 or 1939, hangs above my mantel, so I have the privilege of seeing the bridge in its glory years every day.
For more information on the Poughkeepsie bridge, there is a good collection of information at The Poughkeepsie Bridge Page.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There has been a persistent rumor for many years, that the Penn Central itself torched the bridge, so they could abandon the route. That could be why the RR never did press for public funding to repair the bridge.
I remember the rumor. There were a lot of factors involved in the loss of the bridge, but I don't believe any intent on Penn Central's part was one of them. The most critical factor was the failure of the fire protection system on the bridge after the hotbox triggered the fire.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another "unfortunate fact" is that certain railroads, who shall go un-named, discovered many years ago that certain right of ways were more economically valuable for land speculation, than for transportation.
Think of all the prime residential housing and shopping malls you can build on rail lines and yard sites. In the 1930's, the Mahattan Beach line and the Whitestone branch were both converted into housing. During the 1960's the great fad was to convert railroads into pipeline right of ways and power lines. Now its fiber optic cable right of ways. Think about it, all these "adaptive re-uses" require no repairs and no labor costs.
[Another "unfortunate fact" is that certain railroads, who shall go un-named, discovered many years ago that certain right of ways were more economically valuable for land speculation, than for transportation. Think of all the prime residential housing and shopping malls you can build on rail lines and yard sites ... Now its fiber optic cable right of ways.]
Rights of way can be used for fiber optic cables without interfering with rail operations. In fact, cables have been installed along parts of the LIRR's main line, something that obviously wouldn't be permitted if there were even the slightest interference.
Getting back to the Poughkeepsie Bridge issue, it does indeed seem likely that the bridge is lost forever for rail purposes. But keep in mind that the Selkirk routing is no huge obstacle as far as NYC freight service is concerned. Few if any NYC-bound freights used Poughkeepsie even when the bridge was in full operation.
In case you missed it ... Gov. Pataki was talking about replacing the Tappen Zee Bridge last week.
I seem to recall that Pataki recently made another of his Hudson Valley home-turf promises in talking about replacing the Tappan Zee, but of the six comments on my question, Thurston's is the only one that even came close to answering my question.
What's funny is that if the P'keepsie Bridge was wide enough for four auto lanes, there would be absolutely no problem on either side of the river in getting back all the old right of way, building new overpasses, and the like.
If there's going to be a new Tarrytown bridge, you can rest assured all the property needed will be "acquired" fairly quickly and the bridge finished in three years after that. (If it were the MTA, it would take nine years.) I'd like to see a combination rail/road bridge, which would be good for new commuter service and connections for restored Southern Tier service from Binghamton, Syracuse, and Buffalo--and it would be great to have some upstate NY service back in Grand Central with all its excess capacity.
The Poughkeepsie Bridge was part of an alternate ('bridge') route to New England--perhaps a multi-state agreement about its usefulness and possible new connections could make it worth rebuilding.
Did Larry Littlefield mean, in his original post, converting the present Tappan Zee to rail after a new Thruway bridge is built for rubber-tired traffic or doing it now? That was what I originally was asking.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
(What do you mean about rail on the Tappan Zee)? I don't know what Pataki means about "replacing" the bridge. Does he mean twinning it to expand capacity?
If you are going to build a new bridge, either as a replacement or a supplement, you could build in a way that it could hold trains (ie. not a suspension bridge with trains on the outside) and put in two tracks for commuter/freight service. The MTA studied a commuter rail bridge to link up Rockland-Orange a while ago. A rail bridge up there is a lower cost alternative to the harbor tunnel -- it would mean a shorter loop around for rail freight from the southern U.S. That's what I mean.
But the area is occupied by the affluent and active village of Nyack, which fought against any suggestion of a rail bridge for any purpose. And a rail bridge would have to sweep down to river level to meet the Hudson line, obstructing the riverfront on the Westchester side for a long stretch to have reasonable grades.
What has been the deal with the broadway Express the last 5-8 yrs I believe. The N and QB (now the Q0 Use to run as the braodway express as the R ran local. Are they ever going to reinstate it.?
Larcen
What has been the deal with the broadway Express the last 5-8 yrs I believe. The N and QB (now the Q) Use to run as the braodway express as the R ran local. Are they ever going to reinstate it.?
Larcen
Read the FAQ.
-Hank
After a rather tense morning of Traffic & Weather Together (due to this morning's sad news), I headed underground to gather a new set of station depth measurements. These will eventually be added to the Line-by-Line write-ups by Peggy. Here's what I found out today, as I ventured to Washington Heights:
168 Street Station:
A platform = 80 feet below the surface
1/9 platform = 100 feet below the surface
190 Street Station (IND):
A platform = 140 feet below the surface
191 Street Station (IRT):
1/9 platform = 160 feet below the surface
So, 191 on the IRT is the deepest on the system.
By the way, I've never before walked the tunnel exits from the 191 IRT and 190 IND stations that cut through the hills. It's a terrific experience! Take the IRT to 191, then exit via the "Broadway tunnel." Walk north two blocks to 193, then west one block and you'll find the tunnel entrance to the IND. Having a FunPass is sure helpful when doing these tours!
I had a great ride through homeball alley (which I haven't done in years), waiting for an R-38 A each way. On the downtown ride, the speed held at about 35 mph on the IDO Speedo for most of the trip between 125 and 59; we peaked at 39 mph just before 81 St. when the dreaded GTs kicked in!
One other note, contrary to what I repored last week in a different thread, the pinball arcade in the Roosevelt Ave. Station is no longer there; it is now the site of the H&R Block office (which is not too active at this time of year!).
According to the NYCT Book of "Facts & Figures" the 191st. street station on the 1/9 lines, the station is 180 feet below ground. Perhaps they need a new battery in their altimeter watches.
On the other hand, it showed a particular amount of courage to venture up to Washington Heights today, with 90 degree plus weather and Con Edison's recent track record....!What railfans will endure.
You're right Steve --- riding in the elevators I did have "bad thoughts." The interesting thing is that the stations explored today were much cooler than the outside air temperature, thanks to the depth. Also, the tunnel from the 191 IRT station to Broadway was exceptionally cool, with airflow from the station complex towards the portal.
By the way, the toughest part of the venture today was constantly waiting for the 168-207 Shuttle on the A which was running on a 20 minute headway. At least this wait allowed the 18-minute lock-out on my FunPass to go by!
Caveat: My measurements are +/- 10 feet. So if NYCTA's are also, we could both be right!
Disclaimer: Measurements are my own, and not necessarily those of Casio, the NYCTA, or WCBS Newsradio-88.
Me thinks you're way off. The A platform is, at most, 3 stories down (30') There's street level, the mezzanine, and then the platforms. I think your altimiter watch is going to be off simply because you're not really 'underground' The tunnels are all open to the air, so I can't see the pressure difference between the street and the platforms. I mean, if you go into 23st/B'way, will it read 10-20 feet, as the station is only 1 level below the street, and is quite open to the outside.
Additionally, there are the exhaust fans at 168, which, I believe, will signifacantly alter your readings, especially unscientific ones.
I think the best way to do this would be to measure the height difference from one step to another, and then count the steps. Of course, ytou've got a bit of a walk....
-Hank
I'm confused too, because as I read Todd's measurements, the IRT is only 20 feet lower than the IND at 168th Street. That's the transfer which you have to do in the elevator, isn't it? I cannot see them putting in an elevator if you only have to go down 20'. And it does not SEEM like you are only going down 20'!!!
(Curiously, my out of date map, which still shows the B and C terminating at 168th, Shows the IRT passing below the B & C, but *ABOVE* the A, if you take it literally. Wonder how that ended up that way!)
Hank, the principle of using an altimeter to measure depth works best if the place you are in IS open to the air. In practice, though, few places are air tight enough to keep pressure from equilibrating, which would mean that Todd's measurements would be essentially correct. The point you make about fans, however, is in principal valid. It would require a lot of work to try to guess how much of a difference a fan typically makes. I am guessing, however, that the difference made by a fan could be no more than 10 or fifteen feet...
As Steve mentioned, the "official" NYCTA depth of the 191 IRT is 180 feet, and I came up with 160 feet. Remember, in Washington Heights, "up" is relative. You have to physically see these locations to understand this: 191 IRT is the deepest, but while in the station you can see light at the end of the tunnel - literally the portal - very near-by due to the extreme slope of the terrain.
Accepting that the 191th station is the deepest below ground, I wonder which point in the Subway system is the deepest below sea level? (I assume Smith-9th St. is the highest above sea level.)
My guess it's Roosevelt Island, the platforms of which measure 100 ft. below the surface. As I recall, Roosevelt Island's station entrance is not too far above the East River level.
The only way for me to verify that is to recalibrate my "watch" at sea level each time I take measurements (adjusting for the current sea level altimeter setting), then heading underground.
[I assume Smith-9th St. is the highest above sea level.]
Some of the stations near the end of the 2 line in the Bronx probably have that honors. White Plains Road more or less runs along the top of a high ridge. You can see that clearly from Metro North's Woodlawn station.
Smith-9th is the highest station relative to street level. Sea level is another issue, so you may be right about the end of the 2 line.
After riding the railfan window of a Redbird through the Bronx, there's no doubt in my mind that one of the stations at the very end of the 2 is highest above sea level. The climbs are pretty impressive in a few spots.
Gun Hill Rd. on the 2 and 5 in the Bronx is definitely one of the highest. It is a "double decker" because the Third Avenue El used to connect below. Unfortunately they have since removed the Third Ave. El platforms. But Gun Hill Rd. can be seen at quite a distance and it gives you a spectacular view of the Bronx. I'm not sure if I believe this, but someone once told me that if you stand on the platform on a clear night, you can see Yankee Stadium if there is a game going on.
Todd- if you read this how about adding Gun Hill and 241 to your list of altitudes?
My guess is that Gun Hill Road is about 60 feet above the street.
We were just there yesterday, and there are dramatic climbs and drops north and south of the station.
East Tremont Avenue is pretty high too, maybe 40-50 feet give or take a few cubits.
Wayne
A walk over the bridge this morning showed that the third rail is in place on both approaches and that the contractor was about to install the what-cha-ma-call-ems (what do you call them) that look like rails but are spiked into the ties between the rails that the wheels run on on bridges on the main span. What ever you call them, they are already in place on the approaches. The signals look like they are all in place and are partially hooked up. What remains to be done after these three items are completed?
The "what-cha-ma-call-ems" are called "guard rails" and serve exactly that purpose. Depending upon how they are spaced, they can reduce the likelihood of a derailment or reduce the severity of one should it occur.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanx for the info. I had thought they were there just to add strength or rigidity to the structure. They seem too far from the rails that the wheels run on to keep the wheels in place. Learn something new every day. As I was walking by, the contractor's people were sawing the end off of one of these guard rails (the last couple of feet of it or so) and then bolting it back on to the rail from which they had just cut it. Anyone have an idea why they would do this?
You got me on that one - anybody else know why?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In case of derailment, those guard rails will stop the cars from literally falling off an elevated structure, underground from colliding with a column, or prevent the car from colliding with the WillyB or MannyB structure.
Hey - is it me, or is there an LIRR style signal bridge right before the tracks go under, with signals and all? I vaugely remember seeing something like that on my last misadventure into NYC (I always blow the bridge / bqe split :( )
You sure they attached the same rail section? They do usually bend and cut the ends of those guard rails.
-Hank
To those that have inquired on the subject:
> A complaint to abuse@webtv.net might be a start.
This is fine for some things but SubTalk/BusTalk does not currently
require (or have any way to verify) a poster's identity. I'd complain
to abuse@wherever but I don't know who to complain about!
Obviously locking down a whole ISP is pretty draconian; I've lifted the restriction for the time being. Hopefully the cool-down period will have calmed some emotions around here.
> Can't you do anything else? (Other than lock out all of WebTV --
> this week's badboy of the web)
Yes, I can, and neither option is very appealing. Shut it down, being
the first. The second is to require a password and a registered handle
for posting. This will considerably discourage first-time and casual
posters from using the site. Everyone would have to submit a handle
and email address and receive a password in order to post. (I am *not*
requiring people to put their email addresses in posts.) I have long
considered this an absolute last ditch solution.
This will achieve a few things, the most important of which is not that I will have a way to know who posts what. The way I see it, the fact that people will no longer be able to post under multiple handles will be self-policing.
That being said I have begun coding password control into SubTalk/BusTalk and expect to have it usable very soon. I *still* don't want to turn it on, however.
-Dave
Here's a suggestion from a WebTV user: implement your "password" system, then discontinue it after 2 weeks. Prior experience with webTV troublemakers is that they have a very short attention span and will wander off to find other places to pollute with their garbage. If they should happen to return to SubTalk and make further offensive postings you could just re-implement the password system, which would at least allow those who have already registered their handles to continue posting.
I understand your frustration with WebTV. They have polluted usenet with their idiotic ramblings, make responsible WebTV users look bad. They are AWFUL at enforcing their own TOS. I guess you have to expect that WebTV's cheap and easy access to the internet will be the primary way many people with limited IQ's will access the 'net.
I hope this can be resolved soon. I enjoy your message board. It's a great way of finding out information that can't be found elsewhere. And your entire website is phenomenal, especially to a subway nut like me.
Respectfully,
Chris Reidy (a soon to be MTA employee of some kind!)
I'm not a WebTV user (personally, TV is for viewing, not web surfing.), but I can understand Dave's frustration. It's his board, and if he wants to implement any kind of registration/password/handle system, that's his decision.
Who I am is right on every post I make - nothing hidden. My e-mail address is always right there - I'm not hiding anything.
and like Chris, I enjoy SubTalk. It's a great way to learn, make new friends and offer what little knowledge about transit and streetcars that I'v picked up over the years.
One additional comment: This board is like Dave's house. If you visit somebody's house, you don't trash the walls or damage the joint.
If WebTV is like everything else on the idiot box, there's no control.
Betcha all the WebTv trash is unsupervised kids, IMHO.
But it is so hard to supervise a 40 year old kid.
Yep, mostly juveniles and young adults with no future. LOL.
Excuse me. I am a web TV user and I resent your statement. Web TV is a great alternative to AOL and other services. See I'm not hiding anything. My name and E-mail address is posted.
Sorry, but our Webmaster is getting irritated by irresponsible posters coming from WebTV. Since you post with your e-mail address right there, you're not hiding anything and are a responsible member of SubTalk. The junk posters coming from WebTV are causing problems, not the resposible WebTV users who post.
Sometimes it's hard not to take offense when someone takes a shot at WebTV users. Perhaps if they went out of their way a bit to highlight the fact that it's the irresponsible posters, not the responsible ones that are causing problems.
No internet service has the market cornered on posting trash. I do believe, however, that a lot of the hostility of pc users toward webtv users is based on the fact the we have a product that is easy to use and offers a wide range of internet services, including built-in scanning ability at a fraction of the cost of a pc. I own a pc, but chose to keep webtv for the nternet!
Don't take it personally. As a WebTV user, I'll be the first to admit that WebTV is the main vehicle used by morons to clutter the 'net. Always remember than when someone bashes WebTV it isnt being directed at mature, responsible posters. Mr. Pirmann's actions are warranted, unfortunatly. The small inconvienence of having to use a password is worth it to prevent idiots from sending this message board straight to hell.
My identity is no secret either, despite my handle. When I was initially posting, however, I couldn't post an email address because I was posting from work and didn't have one at home, hence the handle. Dave and a couple of others have known who I was from the time I first posted anyway. Had a password system been in place I would not have been able to post, so I'm glad that this site has not had one. I had thought that each user, even those posting through a proxy server arrangement (such as WebTV and the @home network, where my ID resides) could still be identified by IP address - I know this technology has been used to identify the source of malicious viruses, and I assumed that it could be applied here as well.
In any event, let's hope the ridiculousness has passed for now. This board is a valuable resource and I would hate to see it restricted in any way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The IP address solution is impractical since WebTV employs a proxy (as does AOL). The best I can do is block the address of the proxy which affects all of those ISP's customers.
The password system will not require you to put your email address or real name on posts, but it will require you to pick one handle and stick with it.
The password system will only be enabled for users coming from ISP's I deem to be troublesome, i.e. WebTV.
-Dave
Without getting too involved in this, I have to echo what Dan said. This has not only been a source of ACCURATE information as to how NYCT works, but also a chance to exchange knowledge with people who do similar things elsewhere in the museum world. It's too badn that a few bad eggs have to spoil the whole carton, but I post here to:
Answer questions to which I have an answer.
Ask for clarifications to answers I don't feel are complete.
Poke a little fun.
Throw water on an occasional fire.
Educate - if possible
I also always post my name, and a valid e-mail address.
And lastly I try not to insult, belittle or demean anyone!
I think WebTV has replaced AOL as the home of the internet's worst members.
-Hank
No, it's merely complementing AOL. Now morons have a choice of ISP's...LOL
I keep hearing of webtv morrons etc. I for one am not a morron. I post to subtalk and try to do it professionally. True there are some who dont respect others ut I do and I get along with everyone. Tr to change your messages about webtv users. Lets not let a few people ruin it for the good ones. What happen anyone I just got home from NYC doing a lttle railfanning and I just caught a few of the last messages.
Sorry, but as a WebTV user I'll be the first to admit that many of them are stupid idiots. It's just plain fact. It's regrettable that they ruin it for those of us who act responsibly. And that's the last thing I have to say on this subject.
We think of it as a pious work: giving AOLers someone to look down upon. Think how it must brighten their pathetic lives.
Alan "wait, wait, I must brush on more drool" Follett
Dave, Wouldn't it help to require an e-mail address in order to post so that you can identify a poster if necessary?
Using a password system, like Dave is working on but would prefer not to implement, ensures the validity of the email address. I could enter anything for an email address (there was one poster for a while who used "none@none.com") without any guarantee that it is (1) valid or (2) mine.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The service formerly known as Dejanews had a good solution to people using forged email addresses when posting to Usenet. The Dejanews servers would email the given reply-to address and ask for confirmation before releasing anything to the outside world. Naturally, fake return-addresses will bounce, as will impersonated IDs.
One of the major transit message boards and mailing lists here in Toronto were forced become moderated after suffering from a similar spate of idiots. Nothing is posted without moderator approval. Dave P.'s plan to implement passwords only for the idiot ISPs seems quite fair in comparison, IMO.
In my opinion, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that the teenage idiots who populate AOL and WebTV will take one look at SubTalk and yell 'hey, look at all those trainhead loosers!(sic).' Likely most of these types will live in upper class suburbs where transit is something 'the poor people use.'
CH,
Great White North :-)
(I wish...)
And, Dejanews let you sign up and get a cookie, which also required e-mail confirmation, so you wouldn't have to confirm messages. Now, you sign up for My Deja (which is also confirmed) to not have to confirm. Of course, since My Deja is a lot more than confirmation free posting, you can always enabled the system to force confirmation on you no matter what.
On the other note, I'm a teenager and I once populated AOL (then I grew up, so to speak) and I'm a trainhead looser from a pre-1997 2-fare zone in Brooklyn.
Which European caitals except Berlin Paris and London have subways or trams or light Rail
Just about every one of them does. The question should be, "Which one's do not?" Off hand, I can't think of one that doesn't, but I'm sure there's one someplace. Luxemburg?
Uh, let's see. This ought to be easy to answer: Vienna, Austria; Dublin, Ireland; Brussels, Belgium; Prague, Czech Republic; Budapest, Hungary; Rome, Italy; Amsterdam, the Netherlands; and Madrid, Spain...to name but a few. :-)
I missed the title, but a preview clip shows a girl having a bad day on the subway in a new movie just coming out. Anybody have any info on this?
Thanks fellow subtalkers!
Chuck Greene
Two possibilities: "Run Lola, Run" is a fairly new German film that takes place in Berlin. Although Lola does not ride the subway, her boyfriend loses alot of money he is supposed to deliver to a gangster; the loss takes place on the subway. Second: "Sliding Doors," which came out a year or two back. Gwynyth Paltrow meets an important man in two different versions of the same subway trip in London.
Your description could also be "Stigmata" the forthcoming "Exorcist" clone that looks like it has the title subway car from "Money Train" as part of a revenue train. The scene looks like "the devil" (or whatever) has possessed the woman aboard a rushhour train and she appears to be 'crucified', spread-eagle with her arms attached to straphandles ala R-32/38 cars.
I saw the preview when I went to see "Summer of Sam".
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks, Doug . I'll check the newspapers to see when that movie comes out.
Chuck Greene
How can you get a train (with IRT cars) from the 207 Street IND Station to Flushing-Main Street IRT Station WITHOUT the motorman leaving his cab?
Put an R33 single up front. Take it down to 59th Street then switch to the "B". As you approach Coney Island, switch it to the "D", run it back up the Brighton and then switch to Broadway at De Kalb Avenue. Up Broadway and then use the crossover switch at Queensborough Plaza to take you out the #7 line to Main Street. It's the long way but AFAIK the only way.
Wayne
Cant it be transferred to the N from the B tracks at Coney Island?
Not without Reversing, they West End and Sea Beach tracks come in the same approach.
Why couldn't you switch to F-tracks at south of West 4th or at the Jay Street Interlocking and then loop through Coney Island coming out on either the West End or Sea Beach tracks. I don't think that both Culver tracks are isolated from Coney Island. If not what about the using the Culver Yard entrance from McDonald Avenue and looping through the yard that way.
Tis far easier to go south on the B and come north on the D through Stillwell Ave station
South on the 8th Ave line.
At Columbus Circle take Diverging route to 6th Ave D line to Stillwell Ave.
Leave Stillwell from opposite end along the N line. Follow the N line to Queensboro Plaza.
At Queensboro Plaza cross to the #7 line and follow it to Main Street. Here's one that's a little harder.
Now try to go from 207th Street A line to 239th St yard without leaving the cab!!!!
Go down Central Park West to 59th Street, go onto 6th Avenue, then onto the connection to the Broadway El (Brooklyn). Head on the Broadway El to ENY, go onto the southbound Canarsie Line, through the Canarsie Yard, up onto the New Lots Avenue IRT, and then up the Lexington Avenue Line to 149th Street, go onto White Plains Road, and into the yard.
Sorry - That won't work!!
You can't go from the L line southbound to the NewLots line !!!!!(Unless things have been changed in the last few months)
It hasnt. The only way to "transfer", I guess is by having an unlimited card........ Sorry
Sorry I did not read the question. But you still cannot do it. The track connection between the 3 and the L have no third rail........
The question is: Go from 207th St on the A line to 239th Street yard without being double ended, without changing ends, just one continuous route.
Hint - it requires 3 loops to get there.
Mainline loops, or yard loops. Not knowing if there is a loop you can use in Concourse yard, I'll suggest this....
A to 59st, then D to CI, then B to 145 to D to Concourse, around the loop there, down the the Jerome Ave line to the Lex line. Now you have options. Use the City Hall loop to go up the Lex to the White Plains Rd line and 239st yard, or South Ferry Loop and same, or South Ferry loop and up the West Side, Lenox Ave, and White Plains....
-Hank
It would be nice to have a comprehensive list of all loops (both mainline and yard) on the site. If I have a chance I'll sit down with Peter's book and make a list. That is, unless one of our TA friends can do it from memory...
Yard loops:
207th St (from 200 St only)
Jamaica yard (from either direction)
Coney Island Yard ( N from 86 th St; B from either direction)
38th St Yard (only approach from Ft Hamilton)
Westchester Yard (either direction)
239th St Yard (from 238 only)
Road loops:
Brooklyn Bridge
South Ferry ( W to W, W to E, E to W, E to E)
Stillwell Ave ( starting from DeKalb take either B, D or N and come out the opposite direction)
Interdivisional loops:
Go North from Kingsbridge Rd, cross from 4 track to 1 track, yard lead to Concourse Yd, leave Concourse Yd South-bound on A line ( or vice versa).
Dumb Question: If CAPSLOCK is considered shouting, is 40 point colored type the equivilant of screaming at the top of your lungs?
No offense intended, just a friendly jibe.
Depends on your point of view, I guess. No offense taken!!!
PLEASE STOP with the blinking, moving bright yellow sentences! IT HURTS!!!
-Hank
Thanks, Hank. The colors bother my eyes, too.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
South on A-Central Park West
Switch to F at West 4th. Proceed to Coney Island.
Loop thru Stillwell Ave and head up the D all the way to Concourse Yard.
Pass by Steve's old office and use yard to exit to the southbound #4.
Switch to local somewhere along the Lex.
Use City Hall loop to head back uptown.
Head up the #5 to 239th St. Yard
Damn, that won't work either.
How about this. South on Central Park West to 53rd St, head down 6th Ave. on the "B", use the West End El to come into Coney Island and head out the D. Then as I originally posted.
Dave - You had the eneral idea
Loop Stillwell Ave Station
Loop Concourse Yard
Loop City Hall Station
And your home
Dave,
I think your original answer is also right.
Remember the 1995 nostalgia train trip to Coney Island? The BMT D-type train went along the Culver (F) line to Ave X, then went on a ramp to Coney Island Yard to reach the Sea Beach line to Coney Island station.
That train did not stop at Coney Island, instead it went to the Brighton line to Whitehall Street station.
Hey, the NYC Subway system is so complicated that Steve's question
has multiple answers. :-)
Chaohwa
You're right- I didn't think about using the yard lead from the F to end up coming into Stillwell from the other side. You could do that too.
Way to go Dave
Start from 207st Yard to 8th AveuneA line to 59st switch to 6th Avenue B line to West End Ave line to Stillwell Ave terminate switch to Dline to G.C Yard switch to 4 line express to Brooklyn Bridge loop and go back north again on Express line to 149st G.C. switch to White Plain line to 239st Yard without changing the cab. am im right or wrong??? Look like it take about at least four hours.
Peace Out
Meaney
You got it too but Dave, our host got it first - A Jamaica Tee Shirt to the winner
I'm a transit buff from upstate NY. On Sat. 7/17, I took a ride down to Coney Island for the first time in quite a few years. Enjoyed the train rides despite the heat, and got in some good photography.
One question - does anyone know what those unsightly fences are for which surround the outside express tracks on all of the N Sea Beach line and much of the B/M West End elevated?
My guess is that the fences are there to deter graffiti scribblers from marking up parked trains, but there are an awful lot of gaps in the fences. Whatever their purpose, they are ugly and ruin a lot of photo opportunities on those lines.
I think they are there to protect workers from oncoming trains. They are presently replacing the express track on the West End line and are doing a major overhaul of the signals on the Sea Beach line.
White Plain Road #2 have fences. I want to know why they put the fences betweens Track 1 & 3 from Bronx Park to 241st? Just post this subtalk and i want to know why? I have a picture that i took on White Plain line with fences and #8903.
Peace Out
Meaney
The fences are there to reduce the amount of flagging that would need to be done. The fences provide some assurance that workers are not going to easily get on to the in-service tracks, and therefore, would not need a flagger at every location that work is being done.
-Hank
From my perspective as a motorman, If the train emrgency brakes are activated and the train recharges (no cord pulled, no brake pipe rupture), the motorman is required to walk around the train. These fences cause a no clearance area for the motorman.
Thanks for the response. I'm glad those fences aren't a permanent affliction. They sure do ruin some good photo opportunities.
I just discovered a nice item in an eBay auction that some of you subtalkers might be interested in. It is eBay Auction # 133170997 and is for one of those metal destination signs. The sign says "Gun Hill Road" and while I am no expert on those things, it looks as if it might be original. Check it out, there is a picture included!
Karl B
I'm a subway fanatic from out of state (from Boston actually). I had just went on the MTA for the second time but was displeased by not finding where the funpass metrocard is sold. Some locals didn't know where to find them themselves. The last time I heard,it was sold only at Times Square. There may have been other places such as local convenience stores and pharmacies that sold funpasses but how does an outside visitor find them? Could someone tell me why the funpass is so hard to find?
> Could someone tell me why the funpass is so hard to find?
Stupidity.
Most of the "Hudson News" newsstands sell them if you can find one of those. If you're coming from out of town, it's easiest to order them from http://metrocard.citysearch.com
By the way, if you are coming from out of town, the $17 7-day pass is a *bargain*.
Fares on European subway/metro systems are outrageous compared to New York. A trip in London from Heathrow Airport to Zone 1 ("downtown") on the Piccadilly line is about 7 GBP round trip (about $12 US). For my upcoming trips, I bought a 7-day all-zone London Underground card for $60 (which covers about the same distances as the NY Subway), and a 5-day all-zone Paris Metro/RER card for $62 (which I think covers more ground than metro New York).
On the other hand, the long distance high-speed TGV trains are priced approximately what an Amtrak trip of the same length would cost... $89 from Amsterdam to Paris, 2nd class (Thalys), and $109 from Paris to London, 2nd class (Eurostar).
-Dave
David, the London Card that you bought, does it included the former BR lines inside the greater London Area ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon - yes it does. Any of the former BR lines within the 6 LU zones is included --except Heathrow Express.
-Dave
There's only one problem with buying your MetroCards off the [http://metrocard.citysearch.com] website: the minimum purchase order is US$15.00, so you'd have to buy at least 4 MetroCard FUN PASSes for the website to be of any useful value, in that sense. Buying any other MetroCard via that website should not be a problem as long as you keep in mind the aforementioned US$15.00-minimum purchase order required.
Andres Greene
I had no problem on Saturday purchasing a Funpass at the Hudson News stand in Grand Central Terminal.
Score one for the TA. I've used Boston's tourist pass, and it was a manual non-magnetic pass - you had to show it to the booth attendent or driver. At least the Funpass can be used with the turnstile card readers.
Hudson News is listed as selling the Funpass at JFK. Only problem is, there are *no* Hudson News stands at JFK (at least not in Terms. 5 or 3).
There are vendors in the terminals listed as "Newstand" , but they are not run by Hudson News. All I got was dumb looks when I asked for the "Metrocard Funpass for the Subway" at 4 different stands in two different terminals. I finally folded and bought a token at the Howard Beach Station and got my Funpasses later at the TA stand in the Times Square Visitors Center.
The "real" Hudson News at LGA *did* have Metrocards available.
I would guess it's at the Int'l Arrivals Bldg, but then a GUESS isn't that helpful.
Mr t__:^)
I have news for all you swipers. If the darn thing does not work, you must display the card anyway. You may as well do so to start with.
In case you all missed the news item from a couple of weeks back the TA is spending $1.2M to "... replace 3,155 MetroCard readers ...".
The bad news is that the "replacement" is only at the Turnstiles. The cause is d-i-r-t, grease, bubble gum, etc. on the back of the R/W heads. Since you swipe ONE-WAY in Turnstiles all the dirt goes the same One-Way. On the bus fleet you dip, so the dirt doesn't land in one spot, plus the ejection of a Transfer helps clean as well as ware the head out (plastic is kinder to the R/W Head than paper).
Mr t__:^)
Saw them for sale at a Hess gas station this weekend.
Call 1-212-638-7622 (METROCArd) or 1-800-638-7622 if outside NYC.
Some time back there was a thread on the Roosevelt Avenue Terminal Station that was built for a line never constructed. I have now located my photographs of that station, taken in early 1997 on a Transit Museum tour. Unfortunately, none are very good - they are Kodachrome 64 slides taken with a point-and-shoot Minolta with limited exposure control - but one at least permits a legible view of the name Roosevelt in the wall tile and the color band (dark blue or black, I don't remember which and the photo isn't well enough exposed to tell for sure) above it. I've scanned it in and massaged it into a small .gif (36K) so if someone can tell me how to post a .gif file on this board I will put it up here for those who are interested.
None of my photographs of the trackways are viewable, and another tour member's head landed right in the middle of my photograph of the platforms, so I'm afraid I can't offer more. Hopefully the TA will change their current policy and permit visits in the future - if they do I'll go equipped with ASA 1600 film and one of my semi-trusty old Exaktas.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The TA should really market that space. att would be good for commecial.
I have the photograph and here it is in it's full glory: Roosevelt Avenue Terminal
Jack, thanks for posting it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where is this platform relative to the rest of the station? I've often transfered from the IND to the 7 line and have never seen any sign of it.
Check out both the Abandoned and Disused Stations and the IND Phase Two sections from this site. There is quite detailed information--also see NYTimes article in Dec 97 about a tour.
It's east of the mezzanine, down a corridor which is now part of a police station. The station itself is used for storage, as I understand. The trackways extend several hundred feet beyond the platform.
Correct. It is an island platform station with no side platforms. The sign in the photograph is to the right as you enter from the mezzanine area. There are also signs (with no lettering) suspended over the island platform.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just a note - you had mentioned the color band on the wall - that would have to be the same dark blue as found in the current station - they have never used black as a tile band color as it isn't in one of the five IND color families (red, yellow, green, blue, purple).
Some color bands are dark enough to appear black, especially in dim light. I always thought Queens Plaza was dark brown until they installed the flourescent light in the station and lo and behold - it was the darkest shade of Funereal Purple I had ever seen. Ditto for Broadway-East New York. I thought that was dark grey until the light revealed it to be an even more evil shade of green. Now it's an equally miserable shade of blue.
Wayne
Thanks for the info. The wall, as you may be able to surmise from the photograph, is covered with steel dust. So even in person it's hard to tell.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought I could see a sheen on the tiles. Anyway, from what I've heard, that station is used for storage. Is there really a lot of stuff stacked everywhere? Or is it in the trackways?
Next time I'm at Roosevelt Ave., I will try to at least spot the corridor which leads from the mezzanine to the terminal station.
There's NOTHING in the trackways outside the station itself. There's LOTS of stuff in the trackways AND on the platform.
--Mark
Thanks. I'll have to buy a copy of your video one of these days. Maybe someday I can see for myself.
I have this on video and I have a Snappy. I'm also waiting for my new computer (my current machine is going to my wife's office so I don't want to "clutter" it up), and once it arrives, I'll hook the Snappy up and send Dave some snapshots. The video came out very good, considering the conditions of the area.
--Mark
Great! I only wish my pics had come out better, but...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read somewhere that the AEM7 was based on a Swedish locomotive design. Anyone know if that's true?
The AEM 7 IS a swedish locomotive.
As is it's younger brother, NJT's ALP-44. Both were designed and built by Sweden's ASEA-Brown-Boveri (ABB Traction)
-Hank
Both postings by Hank and Bob D make a lot of sense to me since Amtrak borrowed technology from the X2000 Swedish trainsets to build the Acela trains. My thanks to both gentlemen.
I believe the technology is licensed to Bombardier, or ABB is a partner in the consortium building the trains.
-Hank
The partner is Alsthom, instead of ABB.
Chaohwa
The Acela Express is using the technology of French TGV, instead of Swedish X2000.
Also, HHP8 is a cousin of French electrical loco BB36000, made by Alsthom.
Chaohwa
No one could have said it better ... thanks for the detail. Mr t__:^)
Actually, it's a Sweedish design, built by EMD, with a Budd body and a Faviley pantograph. Septa's AEM-7s still have the EMD/ASEA builder's plate on them I think. The noteable thing about them is that they are thyristor controlled, not tap changer / rectifier like the GG-1 and I think E-60. BTW - the design is basically a modified version of some Sweedish locmotive, I think class RC-4 or so...
AmTrak's AEM7's were built under license by EMD (yes, they have the traditional EMD wheel arragement on the builder's plate - 0-4-4-0) - but AmTrak'ers and fans alike call 'em Swedish Meatballs - as in "A Swedish Meatball with a train of kiddie cars." You know the first - figger out the second.
(answer Wednesday, if nobody posts it first.)
I always heard of them being called 'Toasters'
-Hank
That's what the west coast Amtrak fans, who've never even seen one of these things before, call them - I've always heard Sweedish Meatball, I believe somewhere I have a MilePosts pamphlet from Metro-North where they take credit for the Sweedish Meatball name....
"A Swedish Meatball with a train of kiddie cars."
first is the AEM7
"kiddie cars" - the PRR folks still with Amtrak when the AmFleet arrived labelled them "Kiddie cars" due to the lack of traditional electric generation equipment underside. They're dependant on HEP for power, and only have wheels and brakes. Just like the kiddie cars for kids - no power source. You gotta push 'em or pull 'em.
No joke, but when I used to listen to Sunnyside Yard on my scanner, the tower men would refer to the AEM-7s as "Meatballs" (Swedish meatballs, get it?)
Also ASEA ran a predecessor version before the original AEM-7s were ordered. I think it carried the number of x9000 or something like that. There was a try-out version of a French locomotive over here at around the same time.
The test locomotives were X995 (French) and X996 (Swedish). I don't think the French one ever did run in actual revenue service; it seemed to have some problem and was returned to France a lot earlier than was originally planned.
From the photos I've seen, the problem with the French one was it was butt ugly.....
Except for the TGV's, most European locomotives are butt ugly. :)
-Dave
...but that's what Europeans say about the likes of American railroad equipment!!!
In the NY Daily News Monday July 19, page 7, and the NY Post Monday July 19, page 34, Police arrest 21 Mexican nationals on Sunday July 18 in a gang related shooting that erupted on a crowded midtown station subway platform that happened on Saturday July 17.
This happened at 59th Street and Lexington Ave #6 line.
I thought crime was down on the NYC Subways?
After you read the article, your thoughts are most Welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park blvd.
When you say that crime is down ON the Subway, you really mean that crime IS DOWN IN the Subway.
Crime may be down, but it's not non-existant. Things still happen, just not as often as they used to.
This may seem like an odd statement, but that gang related stabbing on the subway should in no way deter someone from riding the NYCT. The subways are still relatively save (safer than they have been in at least 15-20 years) compared to crime overall.
Here's another factor to consider regarding that crime: those involved were Mexican and/or Equadorian migrant workers (aka Day Laborers). They are the city's growing army of restaurant workers. Out on Long Island they are the grounds keepers, nannies and carpenters' helpers for the suburban dwellers. And believe it or not, even suburbia has the Mexican gang problem even worst than the city (their services are more readily required out there).
The thing to remember is that these gangs are long-feuding regional factions from their respective countries or localities. These 'disagreements', turf wars and the like actually go back to their homelands and for generations. Unfortunately, their conflicts can come at any time, and apparently at any place.
Doug aka BMTman
Great - Let's relax imigration even further. Our jails are not quite full and we surely don't have enough innocent victims.
"Great - Let's relax imigration even further. Our jails are not quite full and we surely don't have enough innocent victims."
Unless you're an American Indian (or Native American to use another term), your being here is the result of "imigration." How do you know that some or all of the "Mexicans" involved in the subway shooting weren't born here (thus citizens) and lived here their entire lives?
Most immigrants, like most native-born citizens, are law-abiding, tax-paying residents who go to work five days a week and are a net positive to the economy and society. Anyhow, I would bet that, of the immigrants who can speak and write in English, they probably spell "imigration" better than you can!
DAMN RIGHT!!!
Try not to show your whitetrash side people.
ok calm down people... i am sure that he was just being sarcastic.
here's an idea...ignore all posts you disagree with or find offensive. there should be no fightin on this board unless its about which train cars are better than the others
PLEASE - Let cooler heads prevail here. No one likes to see a gang fight erupt on the subway, or anywhere else, for that matter. As for "imigration (sic)", well, I have my own opinions on this, but I'm sure as hell not going to air them here.
Wayne
Wayne, I understand your point but perhaps if the shooting took place in a courthouse our legal weasel would not be worried so much about mis-spelling and more about crime. Then again, if it weren't for crime and immigration, some of the bottom-feeders would starve. But still, we've beat the Esq. thing to death.
perhaps you mis-read the original posting but the article did say MEXICAN NATIONALS. But then again, being a lawyer, you don't want to confuse things with facts.
Well my comment is about the lack of any coverage of this on TV news. I mean the crash of the Kennedy plane is big news, but to spend the whole newscast on it, to me shows we are obsessed with celebrities.
The TV news should spend more time with things that effect the average person. Plenty of people use that station where the shooting happened, I was there the day before.
I read newspapers (Daily News, NewYork Times) and news on the internet, I've given up on TV news. It just does not cover stuff that happens to the average Joe.
The shooting also shows that we still have some gangs riding the subways. Most immigrants are not in gangs at all, and I see alot of them riding out to the north shore of Nassau county (Glen Cove, Manhasset, Roslyn,etc) from NYC via the 7 line and N20, N21 bus routes. Buses going eastbound are packed in the morning, and packed westbound in the evening. These immigrants are day laborers, and servants for the wealthy in the area.
If anything, they are taken adventage of by the wealthy people there.
I just wish TV news would cover some of what affects the middle and working classes (the very diverse culture of NYC), instead of spending the entire newscast on a celebrity death.
Perhaps the MTA should have it's own 10 minute daily news on public television on what happened on the subway, and informing riders of changes in the bus and subway routes. For a system that moves more people that any other, it's coverage by the local news media is pathetic.
I have to agree with you, there. When something happens to a rich and famous person like John Kennedy Jr. everyone is all bent out of shape yet when Mother Teresa died it was "Oh, too bad". The news shows and papers caters to the Upper-class population. Not to be insensitive, but rather than sobbing over the poor little rich people's lives (and I'm not talking exclusively about just the Kennedy's either) why don't they discuss what is happening in the lives of the Lower class & working class in NY. This is just another example of the media overlooking the lower classes and centering their attention on the rich and spoiled.
I thought that conditions on the subway were improving but now I hear about this. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said cops should get off our backs for such petty "offenses" as eating and drinking on the train (notice the way I said "offenses"- it's not a offense to eat in public, it's a right). If the cops weren't so damn busy harassing us for sipping our Coffee Coolattas and eating our M & M's on the train, they's gain a lot more control over what is going on.
Why do the papers write about the rich and famous? Because that's what the "average joe" wants to read. News is a business, papers write things that sell papers and ads inside the papers. TV and Radio only sell ads, and when you sell ads you have to make sure a lot of people are looking. How do you do that? By offering something that most people will want to buy/watch etc.
I have to agree with you, there. When something happens to a rich and famous person like John Kennedy Jr. everyone is all bent out of shape yet when Mother Teresa died it was "Oh, too bad". The news shows and papers caters to the Upper-class population. Not to be insensitive, but rather than sobbing over the poor little rich people's lives (and I'm not talking exclusively about just the Kennedys either) why don't they discuss what is happening in the lives of the Lower class & working class in NY. This is just another example of the media overlooking the lower classes and centering their attention on the rich and spoiled.
I thought that conditions on the subway were improving but now I hear about this. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said cops should get off our backs for such petty "offenses" as eating and drinking on the train (notice the way I said "offenses"- it's not a offense to eat in public, it's a right). If the cops weren't so damn busy harassing us for sipping our Coffee Coolattas and eating our M & M's on the train, they'd gain a lot more control over what is really going on.
I'm just curious to know what the rest of you guys out there think of what's going to happen to the NYCTA after Rudy's gone as far as improvements currently being made within the system. Thanks, Salvatore.
Not much since NYCT is controlled mainly by the MTA. The improvements will be within the exisiting scope alreday defined by the MTA.
I do see the City Hall station being reopened to tours as well as other stations.
Don't get me wrong, I think that some of Rudy's rantings have helped the city. It is his methods that cause friction.
(Future) Depends on politics and economics.
1) How much power will the health care establishment have? They've been getting the money that hasn't been going to transit.
2) How much power will the TWU have? If they have more, than any additional funding for transit will go to wages.
3) How strong will the economy be? Transportation is at the end of the money queue, so a strong economy means more, a weak economy means a return to deferred maintenance.
I think the odds of significant investments are highest with Hevesi, and lowest with Mark Green and Peter Vallone. The other candidates are unlikely to accomplish much if elected.
Green is in favor of subways, but not at the expense of his health and social service constituents. The money used for more transit would have to come from big tax increases, which are unlikely. Vallone would rather cut taxes than build subways. Hevesi is more likely to hold the line on spending in other areas to cut the debt and build infrastructure.
Interesting
thanks
Until they come up with a lest costly and time-consuming way to construct subway tunnels and stations, I'd have to say that the future as far as expansion is concerned, is as bright as the bulbs in the East Broadway station mezzanine. Hell, they can't even find a way to find the bad wire that has left an entire row of them dark all this time. And the fiasco on the Manhattan Bridge - fahgeddaboutit!
Of course, you have all the above-mentioned reasons as well to contend with....
Wayne
I have one prediction!!!
The TA will lose the lease on 370 Jay Street in the year 2002. This is particularly sad since it's been the 'home' of the TA since June 15, 1953.
So that is a leased building? Then, with the success of the Marriot Hotel, I guess you're right about the TA losing the lease. It's a perfect spot for a new hotel. And while 370 Jay St may be the home of the TA, lets just say the building is not a masterpiece of architecture. And if the TA insists on it being upgraded, it will be cheaper for the owner to tear it down and replace it.
Under the circumstances, this doesn't have to be "sad." Question -- has the TA planned for this? Did the MTA lease enough space in Lower Manhattan to share with the TA? Can some efficiencies allow the whole TA bureaucracy to squeeze into Livingston Street? Is the TA considering a new building elsewhere in Downtown Brooklyn? If so, there are plenty of sites available, but they had better move now. Three years is a short time to develop a new building in NYC, even if it is "as-of-right."
One solution is a combined hotel/office tower, a la the Marriot. The problem is the TA would have to find space somewhere else during construction, and that may not be easy. Another is a new office tower in Coney Island. The TA has the land, and the zoning, if there is a place in the yard to put a building.
G-e-e w-i-z that's an interesting thought. Peggy Darlington & I have been talking about another "Field Trip" and it was her suggestion that we start it at 360 Jay Street ... I didn't understand why then, but maybe she has had a premonition ?????
Mr t__:^)
I spoke with Peggy and she has no premonition. The ***370*** Jay location is easy to find.
Well, with the MTA moving into 2 B'way, maybe they'll have enough room for the extra offices there.
-Hank
Here is something to think about beyond the short term - perhaps ten to fifteen years in the future. There is evidence that oil (and thus gasoline) will become increasing scarce and expensive. That may hurt the American economy as a whole, but it will raise the costs of automobile use. On balance, that may mean more resources going to transit.
Interestingly, people thought in the 1970s that by the end of the century, there would be no oil. It turned out to be bunk, I believe this prediction is too. But I do think that we should try to generate more electricity using nuclear and solar. Barring that, we should burn more garbage instead of oil for power.
In general, you can save more energy by recycling as much of the trash as possible than you can generate by burning trash. If you pull out the recyclables, what's left is not very burnable.
If there's going to be any construction in the near future, I'd say that an extension of the E line into Southeast Queens is the most likely candidate. There's a fairly strong degree of community support for subway service in what's now an under- or un-served area, and the Archer Avenue line was planned to go farther than its current terminus. Another factor is that construction costs in a relatively low-density part of Queens would be far lower than on Second Avenue or most anywhere else in Manhattan.
I suspect that here will be extensoins and the rerouting of the N back on the Bridge
You kidding me, buddy? The N line will never run right! It would be a miracle if in the year 2000 N trains run both Manhattan bound AND Coney Island bound on weekends. The service is a joke and most of the N line stations (at least in Brooklyn) are so dirty and decrepit. I heard a rumor and I'm not sure how true it is, but someone told me that the greenish-brown substance that drips out (they look almost like stalagmites) from the walls in some of the Brooklyn stations is human waste that that drips down through the cracks from local sewers.
Last Wednesday, I took the B train to Coney Island, and due to
track work, the B ran via the N line to Coney Island, but returned
uptown via it's normal route. When they rerouted the southbound B
trains to Coney Island, why did they run the B on the NX line from
59th Street-4th Avenue to Coney Island nonstop?
James S. Li
I have never seen a revenue-service train on this track. Most of the track, while signalled now, looks like it's unfit for subway use.
The NX was discontinued in 1967. However, The Northbound
Sea Beach express track has been resignaled and
rehabilitated (barely). Last Weekend from 10pm Sat. until
5am Sun, All Manhattan bound N trains ran nonstop on the
Northbound Express track (E4). The Southbound express
track (E3) was only rebuilt from 86th st. to just north of
Kings Highway where new switches are in and lead this
track into the Northbound exp. track. Track E3 (southbound
exp.) is disconected at 8th ave and by Kings Highway and
is abandoned. The former Northbound express track (E4) is
now signalled for bi-directional service with switches to
permit this operation. Aside from me riding on it last
week I have seen B,N and M trains using track E4
occasionally during the week at different times going in
different directions. One last thing, When riding the
express the operator (a friend) had the R-40's up to 48
mph!! Pretty good for a track with rail that is probably
older than the 32 year old R-40's. Lets hope that the TA
keeps maintaining this track. It is a good alternative to
sending trains over the West End.......Mark
Was that an R40M or a Slant?
Wayne
A slant R-40 of course.....Mark
That track is all recent, and very serviceable. This is no longer the 70s, and they value their equipment very highly.
-Hank
I've been riding the line for many years, and the only rail replacement on the express track is the new switches and replaceing the occasional broken rail
They are rehabbing track 3 for service as a bypass and reroute track. Most of the rail is new. Track 4 is abandoned.
-Hank
Track E3 is ABANDONED, Track E4 is IN SERVICE. You ride the line and look at the track and then tell me that rail is new
Mostly to keep them out of the way of the regular N service; however, part of it may have been due to the (seeming) inability of B riders to understand simple directions when told to their faces. By running express, they got to CI faster to catch the north-bound local making all stops. This only forced every other train to give directions individually... I'm going to stop here, before I get carried away.
If anyone wants to watch the fun, this same GO will be running Wed - Fri of this week.
Now, if only this GO could be in effect during the last week of October...
Probably so people going to stops on the West End could get there faster. They'd take the train to CI and wait till it turned around and go to their destanation.
Picture of the Mineola Car is in the Catalog of the ShoreLine
Railway Museum.
Hello,
Does anyone know yet of the MTA's plan of which lines run where after the Queensbridge hookup to the Queens main line is completed?
- Jose
[Does anyone know yet of the MTA's plan of which lines run where after the Queensbridge hookup to the Queens main line is completed]
Nothing's been decided yet.
I think they are going to wait until the connection is near completion
before making any plans known to the public.
READ THE FAQ!
-Hank
The service change posters will probably go up the weekend they take effect. That's about the lead time to expect from the MTA. Otherwise your guess is as good as mine.
The TA did a pretty good job in advertising the massive number of changes due to take effect when the Archer Ave. line opened on 12/11/88. They flooded the system with brochures, and took out full page ads in the major papers as early as before Halloween. Maps showing all the changes were installed in subway cars as early as Veteran's Day. But people, being naturally stupid as they usually are, got confused on the first workday of the new service plan. I got amused as i watched people get off an E train at Jamaica Center and wondered where in the world they were. My favorite comment: "wow, they must've completely re-modeled 179th Street over the weekend"...LOL
Would have loved to watch how people reacted when the Chrystie St. connection opened in 1967. That must've been even worse.
It was utter chaos for the first day or so, not only for passengers but also for tower personnel and even motormen. Trains wound up on the Manhattan Bridge instead of the Montague St. tunnel, and there were stories of passengers winding up in Kew Gardens instead of Harlem. I remember one newspaper article which spoke of a motorman punching a wrong button at DeKalb, with the result that "1000 astonished riders found themselves crossing the Manhattan Bridge."
Actually, if I remember the NY Times article right, the train was supposed to be a Manhattan bound D train, where the motorman hit the wrong button and ended up as a Montague St. tunnel M train, which then proceeded through the Nassau Loop and across the Willie B before someone finally figured out this wasn't the fastest way to the Grand Concourse (and fortunately, the first of the 75-foot cars were still five years off, or they might have really had some surprises at the Marcy Ave. curve).
Hello,
Thanks to you comments, I'll be expecting an electrical ride to Dover tomorrow.
I'll see if I can let you know what car consists I get once I return. Does anyone, by chance, know if the line has the new Comet-4 cars that NJT has boasted about, with ADA capability and digital PA system?
There use the Comet 4s quite often on the Morris & Essex. I take this line from South Orange and about 80% of the time its a Comet 4. Only thing about the Comet 4 is that the interior is this hospital waitning room pink, Ugly....very ugly. Other than that it's a very interesting car, if your getting pushed by an ALP 44, try to get a seat in the very front, Great view. As for the automated PA system, it's cool, the LED sign, and the automated female voice is interesting for a bit, until after 5 stops when your tired of hearding first "The next station stop is Brick Church" then "This station stop is Brick Churck" for every stop. But it cool, Enjoy your ride.
I dislike the interior colors on those cars too.
I really miss the old seats in the Arrow III's which were orange and black in some cars, green and blue in others. I guess the current brown seats are more sophisticated-looking though.
And while I like the orange seats in the Arrows, I don't particularly care for them in the Comet II's, of which some have the orange (solid orange, no black) "flip-flops" and others have tan LIRR/MN-like seats.
Oh, the New equipment with that "Barbie" interior? I can't stand it.
BTW - pink and light blue are believed to have a calming effect on people - I can say this works, as the last time I took NJT, I was really pissed before I got on the train (missing your previous trian does that to you...), and not so pissed when I got off, though I got more pissed when the doors opened at penn, and I was about to step off, until I suddenly noticed we were still moving along. Center door BTW.
That's happen to me too.The conductors on NJT have been doing that alot recently. Especailly around rush-hour (am). It's becoming a very dangerous habit. It happened to me about a week ago and a couple of time before. With everyone trying to get to where they're going i'm suprised no one has gotten seriously hurt as yet.
Thanks, I'll take that into account.
I'm also wondering if the ADA capability means that the Comet 4s will have loud BEEPS as the doors are closing as opposed to the simple DING-DONG.
The comet IV cars have the ding dong but it seems slower than the subway diong dong
Hello, fans!
I have returned from my mini-vacation to/from Dover on NJT's Morris and Essex lines, and here's how it went...
On the way there I sat in the first car sitting on track 2, where I met the conductor. He was very nice and said that we were on a Comet II trainset (I was in Cab Car #5145). He showed me the controls in the cab car, then had to close the door (black-tinted so you couldn't see out of it). He said he had to close the door, but I would get an equally good view out of the side. Indeed I did! It appeared to be "open prairie" as I shot out of the West Side Tunnels.
Along the route, I noticed three Phase Breaks, the first within the tunnel, the second around Maplewood, and the third around Morristown. Can anyone fill me in on voltages?
When I arrived at Dover, it was a LONG walk to the other end of the station, walking down the staircase and over one set of tracks. As I was about to walk over the tracks, DING-DING-DING-DING!! The crossing levers were coming down! I kept my pace, and as I looked over, I saw- would you believe- a 4-car Chesapeake and Ohio Freight Train! I didn't know that they run past here.
On the way back, I arrived at Dover and looked as a set of cars pulling into Dover and pushed by ALP44M engine #4427. (can you believe it's the same engine that has its own photo right here on this web site?) Looking at the illuminated LED signs and the pink interiors, I could tell right away that it was the new Comet IV trainset. It was actually the 4:38 arrival from New York, which would turn into the 4:57 departure TO New York. I took the first car behind the engine, car #5246, for the ride home. Along the way, I saw a lot of abandoned tracks and abandoned stations. I definitely saw surprisingly large crowds at most of the stations we stopped at. Past Newark Broad Street, and passing through the Hoboken Yards, I saw to my right a PATH train traveling in the same direction we were, implying that it originated in Newark. I also saw a strange NJT diesel setup with Comet Cars AND MU-cars. I didn't know such setups were possible. Finally I saw what appeared to be an abandoned Amtrak GP Unit #7xx to my right as I pulled into the dead-ended track 4 at Penn Station.
And I'll be going back next month!!
Well on the Morris&Essex the voltage is 25kv, the only voltage used on the electrified train lines running into Hoboken (the Morris&Esssex is really a Hoboken termanating line the Penn connection has only been around for about 6-7 years I think). As for the NJT Disel with the (they're not Comets, they're Arrows MUs, only Arrows are setup as MUs) Arrows MUs attached, most likly they were located there for storage (the NJT MMC is right down the track near the harrison phase break) and the disel is used to pull the Arrows that come off of the Hoboken line (the hoboken line is 25kv while the rest of NJT electrified lines are 12kv). So basically when NJT need to do maintenace on Hoboken based Arrows, instead of going to each and every MU, opening there controler cabnet, and switch over from 25kv to 12kv. NJT tends just to use a disel to pull any Hoboken based Arrow into the MMC.
Oh yeah almost forgot, the MMC is that big complex that you pass just before you exit or enter the tracks headed for Penn. You'll see alot of NJT cars and locos lined up for maintenace. The MMC is the main maintenace yard for NJT.
[ Finally I
saw what appeared to be an abandoned Amtrak GP Unit #7xx to my right
as I pulled into the dead-ended track 4 at Penn Station.]
I saw the engine you're talking about (was it a high-nose GP9?) just west of Penn station, where the tracks come out into the open.
I'm guessing it is there for roughly the same reason as LIRR 102/104 on the east end -- to be able to quickly get a disabled train out of the way in either the Station, or the north river tubes.
Anyone know more, or can confirm?
I think that it was a GP 38 unit.
The yards are in Kearny, not Hoboken.
Does anyone know what the LIRR is doing with its Bi-levels? This morning, about 11:10, there were 3 of them sitting at the interchange point with the NYCHRR just south of the N line portal in Bay Ridge. When I passed by later, there was a NYCHRR loco with 3 or 4 boxcars and 2 hoppers in the same area. The bi-levels were still there, so I imagine they were going to be picked up by the Cross Harbor and taken somewhere else.
[ Does anyone know what the LIRR is doing with its Bi-levels? This
morning, about 11:10, there were 3 of them sitting at the interchange
point with the NYCHRR just south of the N line portal in Bay Ridge.
When I passed by later, there was a NYCHRR loco with 3 or 4 boxcars
and 2 hoppers in the same area. The bi-levels were still there, so I
imagine they were going to be picked up by the Cross Harbor and taken
somewhere else.]
I took LIRR #507 (7:38 from Roslyn to LICity) this morning, and had the opportunity to pass by Morris Park Diesel shops, and Fresh pond yard. In Morris park, I saw the same 8 car bilevel train, with a DM30 at each end. It looks like this may be how they will begin service. Makes sense, though, for gaps, I guess (although, Amtrak doesn't seem to have problems going over gaps with their dual-modes..).
I also saw about 3 bilevels in Fresh Pond Yard (these may be the ones you saw also, although they'd be going the wrong way!), and a string of 5 or so of the old push-pull cars.
At morris park, I saw a consist of about 10 cars, with 3 bilevels scattered through the middle. It looked like the hoses were all hookes up too -- made a very strange looking train.
[At morris park, I saw a consist of about 10 cars, with 3 bilevels scattered through the middle. It looked like the hoses were all hooked up too -- made a very strange looking train.]
I've been wondering what the LIRR will do for weekend Hamptons to Montauk parlor car service once the current diesel fleet is phased out. Will they perhaps save the old parlor cars and run, say, four bilevel coaches with the old red-striped parlors? Or are there new parlor cars on order?
[ Montauk parlor car service once the current diesel fleet is phased
out. Will they perhaps save the old parlor cars and run, say, four
bilevel coaches with the old red-striped parlors? Or are there new
parlor cars on order? ]
I thought they were just going to discontinue parlor car service, or perhaps change it such that it uses the standard bilevel coaches, but keeping the "service".
I suppose that you could run the old parlor cars at the rear of a consist. I don't remember if they had onboard generators (I think they do), but if they did not, you could always have a power-pack at the rear.
I heard the original double deckers that run to Port Jeff(3000-3009?)are going to be compatible with the new cars and will be parlor cars.
Curiously, was one of them car number 5014? This would confirm some rumors. (The car was last spotted near Oak Island Yard, NJ)
-Hank
The heat and humidity seem to have frayed some egdes here lately, so even though I run the risk of agitating someone if this subject has been covered before, here goes. In the 50's ( I was 10 or younger) I seem to recall that the color and order of the lights on top of the first car on some BMT lines had some order: e.g., 4th Ave local was 2 greens, West End = green and white, Sea Beach = red and white, Brighton was amber and white, Culver was amber and red?, with expresses somtimes being the reverse of the local. Does this ring a bell anywhere?
"Does this ring a bell anywhere?"
Bells were used on the trollys. But yes, marker lights have been discussed here many times. Some of the NYCT cars still have them but they are no longer used to indicate anything.
Here is a list of the marker lights, indicating route and destination, as used in 1976
http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/markerlights.html
Bells were used on the trollys.
But let's not forget that the el cars (both Brooklyn and Manhattan)
used a bell cord (analogous to the...ummm....what's the buzzer
T/L, #13?) as did the IRT Composites, Hi-V steels and Lo-Vs.
Marker lights were used to enable tower personnel to identify a particular train. In time, the riding public also became familiar with them, and in the same manner could immediately recognize a train by the color combination.
The Redbirds still have marker lights; however, they are generally set to red-red.
I noticed recently that an Air Cooling unit has been put in place at the north end of the Downtown platform (4,5,6).
Does anyone know how many will be installed on each platform, how far apart they will be, what capacity they will be able to handle, and any other interesting information there is.
Today the New York City Planning Commission voted to start an 8 month process that will put trolleys back on Brooklyn streets during the year 2000.
[ Today the New York City Planning Commission voted to start an 8 month
process that will put trolleys back on Brooklyn streets during the
year 2000. ]
Where does this information come from?
The poster is Bob Diamond of the Brooklyn Historic Trolley Association - the same Bob Diamond who has given tours of the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To Bob D: I always heard that a there had been a proposal for a trolley route down the middle of Fulton Street Mall (the street already has limited-access, bus-only status). The line would have went from Flatbush Ave. on the east and would go down Court Street, terminating either near Tillary Street, or down near the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge by "Barge Music" and Fulton Ferry Landing, right at the river's edge.
Is any of this accurate?
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, that plan was first put out in a study commissioned back in 1985. Hopefully, that route may eventually see the light of day. The route is mentioned in my earlier post is starting in Red Hook, and woring its way north.
I was there watching today. If I didnt see it with my own eyes, I would not believe it myself, eventhough I worked on the Certification package. I hope LaGuardia is rolling over in his grave.
Does this involve the Brooklyn Historical Trolley people in any way? How is that going, anyway?
At a couple of stations there are places where there is no button needed for track switches. The two I know of is:
1. Bowling Green
2. Hoyt-Schermerhorn
Are there towers that control the switches from within the station?
Yes
1) Bowling Green Tower (in the rear of the Dispatcher's office)
2) Schermerhorn Tower (unless by this time the new Jay St tower is handling it)
There is a Punch at Bowling Green. On the Southbound. Labled
1.Brooklyn 2. A Loop (No.1 Line Tracks in South Ferry 3. B Loop ( No.5 line track on the far side of South Ferry.
Where? I have looked by the Motorman cab and I havent seen it. I sometimes take the train there from work and I havent seen it........
before someone asks : A "punch" is a route selector panel. Tbe name "punch" comes from the fact that train operators punch the button to select their route. A tower may tell the train "please punch"- they are telling the train operator to punch the button for the desired route
It's the same as "dialing" a phone number on a touch tone phone.
While we're on the subject of switches and buttons and the like:
On R-series cars with external door controls (R-1/9s, R-10s, R-11s, R-12s, and R-14s), how exactly would a train be zoned? IIRC, someone once posted that these cars had drum switches in the cabs; if so, I get the picture. Also, what was the purpose of the key switch on the outside of the car, above and in front of the storm door? There was a post not too long ago about a light circuit that this switch controlled. I had thought for the longest time that this key switch had something to do with the conductor's station and the door controls, but apparently this is not the case.
[ Also, what was the purpose of the key switch on the
outside of the car, above and in front of the storm door? There was a
post not too long ago about a light circuit that this switch
controlled. I had thought for the longest time that this key switch
had something to do with the conductor's station and the door
controls, but apparently this is not the case. ]
That is what is called the "momentary switch", and it turns the lights on in the car. It is used on at least the R9 and R17. Not sure if/when they stopped using that method of control, or really why they did it that way, instead of having a switch in the cab. Seems silly to me to have it outside.
We had a long thread on this topic. I can't find it in the Subtalk
search engine though. David P....if you're reading this....what
happened to the "way back" archives? The posting discussed the
two types of momentary switch...the keyswitch for the lights and
the toggle switch in the cab for heat/fans, and explained the meaning
of the "R1-9,R10 MOMENTARY SW ON/OFF" signs on the conductors' boards.
On Station that does not have a Punch is South Ferry. There is a switch for the Lexington Ave Line south of the station. So if your a Rerouted No.5 train you have to Radio Bowling Green so 1. They know your a No.5 Train needing a Line up for the East Side. 2. To keep the gap Fillers in.
I have noticed that there are two number series:
the 900 series which I have seen hauling up to 8 passenger and/or baggage cars.
The 600 Series seems to be used for the long distance trains with up to 12 passenger and/or baggage cars. I have seen two 900 series on some of these trains.
QUESTION: are both series AEM7 or are they different models
The 900's I believe are Ge E60C's Check out the latest Railpace Magazine which has a nice article about these various motors.
The 600 series is the infamous GE built E-60s. Big, heavy, sluggish, loud, slow, and unreliable. They also feature the same C trucks the P-30 had, and were prone to the same derailments. I've heard they were developed from a freight loco (E-44?) There are many a photo of a GG-1 comming to the rescue.
Noticed the longer length, flat sides, and both pans are at the same end on the loco. The HHP-8 is the replacement for these things.
If the GE E60 electrics are as bad as you say, why is Amtrak keeping them around? They seem to be more suited for hauling freight trains than passenger; maybe that's the reason. NJT used to operate the same ones; I don't know if they still do.
NJT's are either in storage or scrapped. I believe that one may still be on the active roster as a snowplow, but I'm not sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The E60s are still around because AEM7s are not enough to haul Clockers and long distance trains. Because of the age of E60s, most of them are hauling just to Philadelphia, and then diesel locomotives P40 or P42 take over the long distance trains.
Because of the shortage of AEM7s, some E60s even hauled the mail train down to Washington, D.C.!
The E60s of NJT are all gone now. They have better electrical locomotives, i.e., ALP44, the cousin of AEM7.
Chaohwa
I also believe that the E60's can haul the RoadRailers and the AEM7's can't. Something about braking. You need two AEM7's to haul longer trains. The 600 series are the E60's.
The 900 series are AEM7s, from 901 to 953 except 900 and 903, which were destroyed in a collision with a Conrail train in Gunpowder, MD in January 4, 1987.
The 600 series are E60s, from 600 to 610, 620, and 621.
Usually E60s are hauling Silver Star/Palm/Meteor and Crescent from New York City to Philadelphia. Sometimes you can see E60 haul some of the long distance trains to Washington, D.C. Also you can see E60 lead the
Clocker.
About AEM7, an AEM7 locomotive can haul up to 10 cars. Two AEM7s are required to haul no less than 11 cars.
In the future, Amtrak will introduce HHP8, an 8000-horsepower locomotive made by Bombardier. HHP8 will be numbered from 650 to 664.
Morever, Amtrak is currently testing the new Acela Express, which consists of two 6000-horsepowered locomotives at each end and 6 coaches between the two locomotives. You can say Acela Express is a cousin of French TGV high speed train.
There will be a different look on the Northeast Corridor next year!
Chaohwa
I know this isnt bustalk but thought some would like to know SEPTA ran its new Neoplan articulated bus on route 48 today. I saw it from my workplace- BELL ATLANTIC at 18th & ARCH in which the 48 run next to. It took me by surprise to see it but was a pleasure to see something new non the less. They also ran there new 30 foot bus, which I havent seen yet on rt. 9 and 54. I think they were the routes. When I find out more I will post.....John
I thought they were using artics on Rte. 48 for a while before.
Maybe BobW. can check on this for us.
Chuck Greene
The 48 still does use artics, that would probably be the logical reason why they were testing it on that roue. Other routes that use artics are, 9,27,48,60,124,125. I think routes like the 14,20, 58 should see artics or maybe lightrail or an extensio of the MFSE or BSS. Thats off this topic though......John
Good ideas, John. Philly needs a lot of help. When I lived in Philly, many years ago, the system was not as nice as it is now.
They had older busses, trolleys, and subways. Now we have the nice running B-IV's on the BSS and the new M-4's on the Market-Fkd. line.
Did I see something about floors cracking on the M-4's? They have to send 50 units back to the Adrantz factory for repairs and bring out
the Almond Joys back on these hot summer days to fill the gap!
I live in Exton now,and only ride SEPTA a few weekends a year for a "fun ride". I like the M-4's with the "railfan seat" up front.
The annoucements can become a little tedious, though.
Chuck Greene
I've been away for a short while but now I can answer your questions, I think.
The current Volvo articulateds (49 of them, 7001-50, with one scrapped (I think it's 7033 but don't hold me to this) are in service on 9, 27, 48 and 60. At one time, when 124 and 125 were partially served out of Allegheny Depot, the artics were used on certain runs on those lines too. Over the years they have also seen service on 33 and 44 (again, back when Allegheny was 44's base) as well as the weekend Frankford El express runs. The artics have been based at Allegheny since they arrived here in 1985.
I've noticed that many 9 and 27 runs have switched to 40 footers during the summer. I haven't heard any official explanation for this other than the lack of need for artic capacity during the summer, when ridership traditionally decreases a bit due to vacations.
At the SEPTA Roadeo on 7/17, Neoplan 7101 was on display, the first of the 155 new artics ordered by SEPTA. These are to be delivered starting next month. While I haven't heard anything official, the scuttlebutt is that the Volvos will go and be replaced one for one with the Neoplans (which are 'pushers', with rear-mounted engines, as opposed to the Volvos with their underfloor engine in the rear of the front compartment - one of the biggest problems with theses buses, since engine fumes and worse often leak into the bus). I have also heard that 60 will not be assigned artics once this happens, although Allegheny will get a handful more for service on 33 instead. This should be interesting with the operation on narrow 22nd St and the 102 inch width of the Neoplans.
I have also heard that a large block will go to Midvale for 6, 18, 22, 47 and 55 service and a smaller compliment will go to Comly for 14, 20 and 58 runs. A handful will be based at either Victory or Frontier for some rush hour 124 and 125 runs.
Also on display was a 30 foot Metrotrans bus, 4501, one of 30 to be delivered this fall. These will replace the 1300-series 35 foot Neoplans, most of which are at Victory and Frontier, with 3 still at Allegheny for route 35 and two at Southern for the 13 bus shuttle (on the 49th-58th gap due to bridge construction, where route 13 cars use Woodland Ave instead of Chester Ave). Six of these will come without a center door for Phlash. With the 25 foot "cutaways" in service on the Suburban routes, it would seem that the 30 footers would be more appropriate for city runs such as 28, 35, 63, 64, 84 and 89. While there may have been sightings on 9 and 54, the usual patronage on these lines would likely preclude them for regular service with 30 footers.
Thanks, Bob. You really spelled it out with all your info. I consider
you an expert on SEPTA. I'll be in Sunday, this weekend to take a round trip ride on the M-4's on the MFSE line. Well, not really, I'm taking the 108 from 69th street, (I love busses, too) then I'll catch an inbound #13 trolley then transfer free to the MFSE for the rest of the trip. I'm glad everything has A/C , it's going to be 100 degrees that day.
Chuck Greene
Let's hope the AC is working!
To correct my last post, 7036 is the scrapped Volvo.
Since i only caught a glimps of the new artic a few weeks ago. I have question. What is the paint scheme on it. Is it like on the IKARUS busses or a new variation. Also I would like to see what the new 30 foot busses look like. Does anyone havve any pics.
What's the difference between a switch and a turnout?
A switch will divert the train from one track to another. Could be a turnout, a crossover, a ladder track etc.
A turnout is a siding that a train can pull onto off of a mainline track, to park, allow a train to pass in the other direction, or in the same direction, as in the case of an express.
They are used extensivly on single track mainlines to allow bidirectional travel but also have other applications.
Excuse me but, my understanding has always been that in fact a switch is a turnout. What you have described is commonly called a siding or explicitly a "passing" siding.Perhaps someone with access to AAR or AREA documents can comment further
Technically, a switch is the mechanism which diverts a wheelset
to one rail or the other. Most common is the double-point,
or "split" switch, using two movable point rails. Another style
seen in street railway work is the single-point, or tongue-and-
mate switch, in which there is but a single moving point.
The switch is the points (whatever style they may be) and the
throwing mechanism, such as throw rods and power-operated switch
machines.
Technically, that's all a switch is. A turnout is the switch
combined with the frog and the closure rail (the rail between
the movable point and the frog).
A crossover is a pair of turnouts arranged to allow movement
between parallel tracks.
That's all technical jargon. In reality, the term "switch"
is used interchangeably for all these things.
thanks for the info.
Especially in the trolley world, the term turnout was used to indicate a passing siding, so Joe wasn't that far off. Often however, the difference between the two terms, as indicated by Jeff, becomes lost in the common usage. The most common use of turnout today is when indicating the length and curvature of the diverging track, for example a No. 10 turnout might be used where two lines diverge, while a No. 6 turnout would suffice for a crossover. When not measuring, the term switch is usually used.
In the model world, they always use the term turnout. This is to distinguish it from the various electrical switches that get used. The self righteous people in the hobby will always correct you.
I have been wondering about this for quite a while. It seems kind of stupid, but I was wondering about certain statistics as to which subway line has the most crime, the least crime, is the dirtiest, the cleanest, is on time the most or the least. If anyone could find some statistics for me, I'd be real curious to know the answers to these questions of mine.
But I can tell you one thing: The IND are called "independent" because they arrive whenever they feel like it. Doesn't seem like that or mayube it's just me...
In my experience:
Worst line: G. Slow,
dangerous, filthy stations, etc.
Runner up: Every line that goes through Dekalb Ave. This is primarily due to the Manny B follies.
Best line: 7. Clean,
relativley safe (never been mugged after a Met game, ever) and runs very frequently. The all day
peak-express runs has really been a nice service
upgrade.
After Queens Blvd, Yes! However, in comparison to the R line, it's a relief.
Runner up: Every line that goes through Dekalb Ave. This is primarily due to the Manny B follies.
Even before the Manny B follies, this station layout caused bottlenecks. In 1956 it got its latest configuration and there was talk about completely rebuilding the station complex to alleviate the problem in the '70s. It's not going to happen, and Brooklyn riders on the BMT lines will forever suffer because of it.
Funny, the Culver Line, long the stepchild of the BMT, never having provided direct service to midtown Manhattan (it stopped at Park Row and then the Nassau Street Loop until combined with the IND in 1954), now provides direct service, but like the "N" train, it's a LONG trip.
--Mark
[Even before the Manny B follies, this station layout caused bottlenecks. In 1956 it got its latest configuration and there was talk about completely rebuilding the
station complex to alleviate the problem in the '70s. It's not going to happen, and Brooklyn riders on the BMT lines will forever suffer because of it.]
What does this have to do with the G line? I'm confused.
N Broadway Local
Why should it have anything to do with the G? while the G s the worst as said, the poster said that DeKalb is the runner up. Go upriver.
I don't find the "7" train all that nice. Granted, they are clean and run frequently, but their air conditioning is the worst in the system and the ride anything but smooth.
Well the AC problem only occurs during the summer. Frequent service and clean cars can be appreciated all year round. And when it comes down to it, getting you there on-time is the #1 responsibility of any subway line. I love those fast, smooth running R46's on the R line, but I'm guaranteed they will be running late almost every day.
Well the AC problem only occurs during the summer. Frequent service and clean cars can be appreciated all year round. And when it comes down to it, getting you there on-time is the #1 responsibility of any subway line. I love those fast, smooth running R46's on the R line, but I'm guaranteed they will be running late almost every day.
A good solution for bad A/C on the 7 is, if you haven't waited underground long enough, to get aboard the R-33WF non airconditioned car and stay there for a couple of stops before moving on to the next car. You'll be surprised how well it works.
I don't think lack of air conditioning makes the #7 bad. Look at what cars ruin their. It could be a lot worse.
I don't think lack of air conditioning makes the #7 bad. Look at what cars run their. It could be a lot worse.
Why are the cars that run there good? I think that the lack of Air Conditioning is an AWFUL deficiency.
BTW, If the R-32GE (or whatever) cars have received broken A/C as part of their rebuild, why didn't the TA send it back to the rebuilder telling them to make it work or do it for free?
The A/C units on the R32GEs are fine - it's the cradles that hold the compressers underneath the cars that are defective. I have been told that NYCT has already sought redress from Buffalo Transit/GE and was unsuccessful. It's an expensive problem to fix too.
Wayne
But because of this, the cars serve no purpose other than take up yard space this time of year. I suppose those cars will be the first B division cars to get scrapped when sufficient new replacement cars come in.
It's a shame, all because of a botched accessory, that R-32 has to be scrapped. Well, they're all going to be scrapped, but I hope that the R-32s get to celebrate their 50th birthdays in service.
See my reply at 3:00.35 on Sunday July 25, 1999. I posted to the wrong message!
Nothing lasts forever. But if any car can threaten the record for longevity now held by the Gibbs Hi-Vs, in terms of subway cars, it's the R-32s.
HOLD IT. We are only talking about the 10 cars that were rebuilt by GE as part of the R38 overhaul contract of which 2 (3934/35) are useless because they are stripped for parts. I don't have the other numbers off the top of my head, but they are probably in the FAQ.
I'm aware, but I was saying that eventually, all the cars will go and I hope it's later and not sooner.
Don't think they're in the FAQ - they are: 3594/3595, 3880/3881, 3892/3893 and 3936/3937.
Wayne
Not in the faq but they're on the R32 roster page, though...
Remember the rebuilds are in excess of 10 years old. If the air conditioners are broken, one can't say it was because of the rebuild. It is because of being used over the last 10 years! How many more years do you think the rebuilds will last?
I have been wondering about this for quite a while. It seems kind of stupid, but I was wondering about certain statistics as to which subway line has the most crime, the least crime, is the dirtiest, the cleanest, is on time the most or the least. If anyone could find some statistics for me, I'd be real curious to know the answers to these questions of mine.
But I can tell you one thing: The IND are called "independent" because they arrive whenever they feel like it. Doesn't seem like that or maybe it's just me...
I read an article in the NY Daily News last Friday that the Transit Police issued a lot of summones to those who drink, litter, smoke, and so on.
I am wondering how many dollars those people are charged.
Also, because I live near Washington, D.C., I have a lot of chances riding Washington's Metrorail. They have a much stricter zero-tolorance policy. You cannot even eat or drink on the platform and train, or you will get a summons.
Cheers,
Chaohwa
I think that giving people a summons for eating and drinking on the subways is just crazy. I never understood why police officers can't just leave people alone if they're not hurting anyone. I'm sure cops have got better things to do than to give tickets to people eating and drinking on the subway. I mean, smoking is a whole other story but is it too much to ask for you to be able to drink a cup of coffee and eat a roll on the way to work in the morning or to have a crisp can of Mr. Pibb after a long, hard day? I don't think it should be a crime to eat your breakfast on the train or a quick snack after work. I can see why they might not want someone to eat a 7-course lobster dinner on the D train, but who is it really bothering? Is anyone here offended by me drinking my Snapple Ice Tea on the train?
I may add, the trains in DC have carpeting. That to be is just purely stupid. What sense does it make to have carpet in a place that you know is going to get dirty?
In my opinion, rather than giving me a $75 ticket for eating my Skittles on the train, I think cops need to be protecting us from those escaped Creedmore patients who like to push us in front of trains and from those Chinese guys who try to sell us those light-up yo-yos for a dollar.
Redbird, I completely agree with you. Trying to enforce a policy like that here in NYC would go over like a lead balloon. I can't even begin to tell you how many cups of coffee from Duncan Donuts I've ended up drinking on the platform while waiting for my train. As long as I'm not bothering anyone or destroying public property, I don't see what the problem is. At least in NY, we had the good sense to have linoleum flooring in all the subway cars. Later, Salvatore.
Not to mention the fact that the TA allows food and gum vendors at various stations throughout the system. The TA's hypocracy confuses riders. Do subway vendors sell cigarettes??? I must say that though I drink my cup of coffee every morning (covered and carefull) and would be very indignant if I got a ticket for it, there have been all too many occasions when the person sitting next to me has a Big Mac and Fries / or greasy fried chicken in their lap and is trying to open those little packs of ketchup while the train is speeding into the station. I don't care for the smell and I don't care for the stains and the litter and the potential for accidents. I don't think there should be a food law but there should be some kind of suggestion of civility. Signs asking riders to be more courteous would not hurt.
As for smoking. I am all in favor of the TA handing out tickets to those people who choses to stand in front of the turnstyles before they enter and finish their cigarettes. And also to the people who can't wait till they get to the top of the stairs to light up. I think a second time offender for this should get a $100 ticket and a third time offender should be banned from the system for a year.
I also think that the TA should spend a few dollars posting NO SMOKING signs by the token booth area or on the stairs or at the street level at the top of the stairs as you enter the subway. No smoking anywhere in the system IS the law and smokers need to be reminded. If they persisit they should be ticketed.
Why do you need protection from a guy selling yo-yo's?
I believe the target of the "drinking" penalty is for the consumption of alcoholic beverages, whether or not it's in a brown paper bag. I for one used to have a few beers on the "B" train on my way back from Coney Island trips - now I'll have a Diet Pepsi, thank you very much.
Wayne
This post is NOT directed at ANY specific poster on subtalk and should not be taken as a jab at any specific person.
Now to answer Wayne's question:
It is a summonsable offense (You have to pay a fine) to consume ANY alcoholic beverage or even to carry open containers/bottles/cans of alcoholic beverages on the subway or stations. In fact the official rules state that NYCT employees should do their best to try to keep such individuals especially if they are already intoxicated from entering the system and if discovered in the system to notify police who will eject the offender from the system and possibly give them a ticket. Not all, but many are also fare beaters so they will be nabbed on multiple offenses. (As station agents,we advise them to leave or not to enter but if they do not leave or if they enter we call the police. If it is unsafe to openly confront the offender we just call the police without warning the person)
Smoking is also banned ANYWHERE in the system- this includes outside the booth, stairways to the streets, elevated platforms, open cut platforms, between subway cars, restrooms, corridors, ramps,underpasses, overpasses. While it can be ticketed anywhere usually we will overlook the smoker if they are by the stairway from the booth to the street.
And to point up how subways and alcohol don't mix - to wit, the man who fell in front of the #1 train at 50th Street a few weeks back. It was a miracle he wasn't killed in that incident. I wonder if after that experience he didn't think twice about his next drink....
Anyway, as I look back in retrospect - unless you are in a Bar Car, such as is found on Metro-North Railroad, or in a LIRR Parlor Car, there really isn't a good reason for drinking openly on a bus or train. It annoys me no end to watch guys on the LIRR downing beer after beer after beer and then getting noisy and/or rowdy. NB: This is my opinion only, and is not directed at any person or persons.
Wayne *a friend of BW*
And on NJT - the same problem, especially on Friday nights headed from the City to the Shore and Sunday evening from the Shore to the City. The kids think it's neat to barf all over the seats.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But let's be honest here, drinking a Pepsi after work is a lot different than drinking a 40 oz. in a paper bag at 7 AM in the morning. I totally agree that alchohol doesn't belong on NYC subways. I must see 10 or so beer bottles rolling back and forth on the floor everytime the train goes around a corner. I think people need to be responsible for themselves, there needs to be some limit to this. It would take some lack of common sense for someone to get so drunk that they take the subway and end up falling on the tracks do to being impaired.
I expect that littering is a crime, Perhpase this is where enforcment can come into play, while still allowing riders to drink the soda or eat the donut they bought from the vendor inside the system.
Exactly. It's pretty clear that eating and drinking are banned on subway trains and buses because of the littering issue, and not because of the smells, etc. as some have stated. But if the offense is littering, then ticket or otherwise punish **litterers** and not people who drink a (non-alcoholic) drink on the train and throw the container away in a proper wastebasket when they get off the train.
Here in Chicago, eating and drinking (non-alcoholic beverages)
* is allowed in stations and on platforms
* is not allowed on CTA trains or buses,
* is allowed on Metra trains, as are alcoholic beverages except on the day of the St. Patrick's Day Parade (which may not fall on March 17) and the Third of July (over one million people attending the Independence Day fireworks in Grant Park).
While you occassionally see some litter on Metra trains, it's not nearly to the degree that (apparently from what I've read on this board) it is on the LIRR. Every train is cleaned before it heads out of the terminal again, and, more to the point, there are garbage cans in every car.
So how come Metra passengers can eat and drink on the trains (and boy, they do: about half the people on late-evening outbound trains are eating a fast-food dinner) without turning them into pig-stys, while (apparently) LIRR passengers can't? Are there garbage cans on LIRR trains? Aren't the trains cleaned? How often?
[So how come Metra passengers can eat and drink on the trains (and boy, they do: about half the people on late-evening outbound trains are eating a fast-food dinner) without turning them into pig-stys, while (apparently) LIRR passengers can't? Are there garbage cans on LIRR trains? Aren't the trains cleaned? How often?]
LIRR trains don't have trash cans and are cleaned way too infrequently.
Actually, there are trash cans located on every other LIRR MU car (next to the restrooms). However, they are far too small and too unknown to most customers to be of any use.
Why overlook the offenders on the stairs??? Do the reasons for not smoking inside the paid area not apply for those standing around the turnstiles or climbing the stiars??? Ignoring such offenders calls into question the logic of having no smoking rules at all. Why is one safer/cleaner/more courteous than the other. Like the grafitti of a few years back this hypocracy on the part of the TA and police, undermines, to many riders, the notion that anyone is in charge! It promotes the idea that the rules and laws governing the system are arbitrary and should not be taken seriously. I will bet the rent that a few No-Smoking signs, posted in and around the Non-Paid area, and a summons now and then, would reduce the number of people smoking throughout the system including on the trains and platforms. Or does the TA even care??? If the TA's pollicy is "they don't care" what other laws and regulations might the rest of us get away with???
"You cannot even eat or drink on the platform and train, or you will get a summons."
Ah, that would explain why I've seen only one WMATA station (and I don't recall which one) with a concession stand. Except for newspapers, sold from machines, (and fare cards, of course) there's nothing for sale in the Washington subway!
It was this sort of mentality that led to the abolishment of chewing gum from Singapore. Because of the filth it caused, it was made illegal!
--Mark
It was the idea that the TA was unwilling to enforce its own laws about grafitti and vandalism that contributed to a more serious and widespread decline in the quality of service in the 1970s and 80s.
I don't think that gum should be banned, but I do think that the TA has an obligation not to publicly look the other way when laws, which are on the books, are openly and brazenly violated. If someone can smoke outside the teller's window, it seems I should be able to spit or blast my boom box there as well.
Why doesn't the TA simply post a list of which laws they are and are not willing to enforce?
The problem is the TA has no power to enforce it's own laws because it doesn't have its' own police dept.
Their inability to enforce their own laws sends, to many, the message-- "There is noone in charge, do what you please."
Well, it kind of does. Transit cops? But the way I see it is, they should worry about real crime instead of harassing someone for drinking coffee on the train. They get paid too much and have way better things to than give tickts to coffee drinkers.
In far away Baltimore, the MTA has it's own Police Department, who are sworn Police under Maryland Law. Didn't NYCT have its own, independent Police Department? Was it combined with the NYPD to save money, or because of Rudy's interference?
Down here, the MTA Police are responsible for for fare enforcement on our POP Light Rail Line. Fare compliance: 98%! Ticket for fare evading is $300.00 per offense. They are also responsible for security of all MTA property, passenger security on the Metro (subway), as well assisting Baltimore City officers when necessary.
i saw 3 more lirr bilevels in oak island yard tue am. the cab car number was 5013
Well, we keep seeing the same thing, but, My veiw is better than yours! :p
-Hank :)
Congrats to Hank Eisenstein for his letter in the "Voice of the People" section of yesterday's NEWS.
Awwrrigghhtt!
What was the letter about (I don't have yesterday's edition of the paper)?
--Mark
It's availabl online @ www.nydailynews.com Do a search on 'Hank Eisenstein' and you'll find me.
-Hank
Lawbreaker
Staten Island: So the subway beat the car 6 to 5. But what of the blatant violation of traffic rules by the Corvette driver? Doing 60 mph on a city parkway (speed limit 50); 40 on local streets (speed limit 30, unless otherwise posted); 43 on the park drive, with a posted speed limit of 25? And how about parking? You have to spend more time and money finding a parking space in Manhattan than it takes to walk out of the subway and to your destination.
Hank Eisenstein
Here's the Voice of the People from the Daily News Monday July 19 1999
Today while I was driving my B82 past the Kings Highway Station I look up to see a mix train. The first 4 car were R32 and the last 6 were R42. The train was in pasager service. I though that the TA did not put mix train into service. Did the TA chaneg there policy on running mix types of trains.
They're stretched to the limits as far as finding enough cars to provide full service with additional service needed on the L, A, and E line because of the Willy B closing. I guess the TA needed a train badly and just slapped together whatever was lying around Coney Island.
Perhaps the MTA should have kept the bulk of the R30's, which could have been used in an emergency just like this, instead of scrapping them 6 years ago.
ON THE jmz lines the R42 and R-40s are intermixed
Qualifying that a bit further - yes, R42s and R40M's DO intermix, and have been doing so for many years. Slant R40 never mix with the R40Ms and R42s. And yes, despite their straight R42 noses, the R40Ms are R40s in just about every respect otherwise.
Also - in response to an earlier post regarding the untimely demise of the R30 - they SHOULD have kept them - if only for emergency service. With ridership sky high and NYCT scrambling to put trains - any train- in service, this ranks as one of their biggest blunders. Not only should they have kept the best of the R30s in service, they should have kept the 1986-GOH'd R10s in service as well!!! Now we have to wait until mid-next-year at least for the 212 R143s to arrive. And the only effect this is going to have is to shuffle R40Ms and R42s around.
Wayne
Don't forget, the R-30s were scrapped at the end of the Dinkins administration, when the crime rate was a wee bit higher. Nobody in the MTA probably thought the overall image of the city and the public's safety -- directly relating to ridership -- could change around that fast.
They also apparently didn't figure on the extra riders the Metrocard discounts would attract, but by then the R-30s were gone to the scrapper.
Hearing about that mixed R-32/R-42 consist brings back memories of 1969, when those two car classes were regularly found coupled together on D trains. That used to drive me nuts! Long live solid trains! With all due respect, leave the mixed consists for Chicago.
The R-40Ms and R-42s look so much alike that running them together is no big deal. Ditto for the R-32s and R-38s. An R-32/R-42 consist is an eye-opener. Now, if you were to throw a pair of slant R-40s into such a consist...well, they used to do that, anyway. I think there's a photo in the car section of a smorgasbord train - R-27s, slant R-40s, R-32s - enough to make one scream bloody murder.
Hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure no one in 1993 had any idea that ridership would even approach today's levels, and I agree the rebuilt R-30s could have been mothballed. They certainly would come in handy now. Of course, I would have loved to have seen the R-10s kept around longer as well (not to mention running a train or two of them on the A where they belonged), but some of them needed to have their wheels turned - if that was why some of them were so painfully loud.
Remember those cars had no a/c. The riders on any line with those cars would have "screamed bloody murder" especially in this painfully hot weather.
Perhaps, but they were tolerated since their delivery in 1961.
Yes, NO A/C is uncomfortable, but not unheard of in a pinch. The R33 singles don't have A/C, nor do the R32GE's.
Wayne
And people hate them. Like I hate school busses (also not air conditioned).
The system survived for half a century with no A/C. Putting R30's on a line like the M shuttle would have been no big deal, since most passenger's rides on this train probably wouldn't exceed 10 minutes.
Considering how crowded some trains get nowadays, which effectively offsets the air conditioning, it would have been cooler overall to have kept the R-30s. Some people might have skipped those trains and waited for one with AC if it entered the station, but then those cars would have more room for air to circulate, and the cars with AC would have to battle to offset the heat from bodies packed in like sardines every rush hour.
I saw a combined Redbird R-62 consist. Now I wish that was is revenue service, that would have been soooo cool!
The real question is: are those two classes compatible? There is a photo in New York subway Cars of an R-62 coupled to an R-21 during a light move, so apparently it is possible to mechanically couple them together.
same couplers H2C
I have to disagree with your second statement stating that "Slant R40s never mix with the R40M and R42s." Granted, I have never seen R40 Slants and R42s mixed together, but the R40 Slants and R40Ms were always mixed together in train service while they were on the "E" and "F". I personally always witness this mix during the spring and summer of 1977.
I think Wayne meant to say the slant R-40s are not intermixed today. I know I've seen them only in solid trains since they returned from GOH. Come to think of it, and I'm not arguing, I've never seen them intermixed at all, and I remember when they were brand new. Anything is possible, though. The slant R-40s took over on the A in the fall of 1977, and when I rode them in March of 1978, they were running in solid trains. And, man, were they ever fast along CPW!
And they're still greased lightning on the Q line these days.
Wayne
I am so glad you mentioned R40s on the "A". Granted, the R10s may have been fast during their heyday, but by the time I started riding the "A" in full force which was in the spring of 1977, they had slowed down quite a bit. There were also the R44s, which didn't have a fraction of the speed of the R10s at their slowest. Then there was the occasional R42, eventhough they were fast, the operative word is occasional.
When they put those R40s on the "A", it was like a change of life. Until this day (from 1977) I don't think the "A" has ever had anything that performed as well as the R40s.
I would like to post a question to who ever can answer it. What was the reason the TA decided to remove the R40s from the "A" altogether back in 1985?
In their heyday, nothing could top the R-10s. They had it all: fast compressors, fast doors, and speed to burn. Not to mention a nifty teal-and-white paint scheme - the one with the narrow teal band at the belt rail. Granted, they never were as quiet as, say, the R-46s, but back then, they weren't nearly as loud as they became near the end. After 1977, I rode on one or two A trains and even a D train once of R-10s, and thought they hadn't slowed down a bit along CPW. I may sound a bit biased, but only because I always thought very highly of those cars. They are the main reason the A remains my favorite route to this day.
I agree with you: like the R-10s, the slant R-40s were tailor-made for the A. They had that same deep-throated rumble at top speed back then as they do today, and you could hear it loud and clear by the time a train had reached 81st St. While the R-38s do a good job on the A today, they come up a tad short of matching the R-10s and slant R-40s.
About the only thing I missed out on the A was a jaunt up CPW on a train of R-1/9s, although I did ride on a few D trains of those old timers. I loved those cars and their glorious symphony of sounds as much as the R-10s.
I'm going to have to pass on your last question. I do remember seeing slant R-40s on either B or D trains when they ran on Broadway while their routes were split during the bridge work of the late 80s.
If the A line was made up of R40's before 1985, then what line were the R44's assigned to at that time? I know that when they first arrived in 1972 they were on the D, but then where did they go?
R40s did dominate the A line in the late 70s and early to mid 80s. During that same time, some R44s were also assigned to the A line.
R44s were also assigned to some other lines during the same period. I believe I saw a few on the CC. There might have been a few on the AA at some point too.
I rode on an A train of what I would presume to be R-44s on July 28, 1976. It marked the first time I had ridden on the subway since December 27, 1973, and the first time I had seen a 75-foot subway car. Just before that A ride from 59th St. to 42nd, I had taken a B train of R-32s from Rockefeller Center. I did see a local train of R-10s at 59th St. which was marked as an AA, but it was still rush hour. Man, did it feel good to be back on the scene! My aunt from Montreal and a few of her relatives from France were visiting us, and we spent the day on the Circle Line and the Empire State Building. My strongest memory of that day, other than being back on the subway, was trying to eat a hamburger and chew with my front teeth; I'd had my wisdom teeth surgically removed the previous week and still had the stitches in place. Lots of fun.
I'm not sure if those were R44. I do know for a fact that in 1980, there were quite a bit of R46s operating on the CC for a few months.
Yes, the R-46s were sent to the CC late that summer in an effort to reduce their usage due to the truck cracking problem which was plaguing them. The R-10s went over to the E and F lines at the same time. I saw examples of these new assignments during my last visit to New York before leaving for Colorado, on Sept. 5, 1980. I know I never thought I'd see R-10s on the E.
Ah - but the real piece de resistance was to get one on the F. I thought the R-6s were fast on the express runs. These beasts positively SMOKED 'EM! The one I rode (#3080) was from 47-50th Street to 179th Street about 4:30 on a weekday - I was lugging a newly-bought bass along with me and it was a joy standing beneath those lovely bracket fans all the way through Queens. The crowd on the other hand was NOT such a joy. We bounced around like a cork between Queens Pza. and Roosevelt. I don't even want to venture a guess how fast we covered Union-to-Parsons. If we were an R-6 (which we weren't), we would have been howling at B-Flat above Middle C. One bank of pink flourescents kept going on and off all the way. And the little white emergency lights up on the fan housings kept in perfect time with them. Love those R10s!
Wayne
Bb above middle C?!? If my theory (no, not music theory) is correct, that would work out to 60 mph, which I'm sure the R-10s were capable of. That A train I took out to Far Rockaway in July of 1969 seemed to be going that fast between Howard Beach and Broad Channel. You'd think the R-10s were jet-powered, or had turbochargers. Or blowers, racing cams, dual quads, etc.
BTW, I take it no one passed out or got sick on that ride you described. What did the side route signs say, Queens-6th Av. Exp., perhaps?
Let's see now...the R-10's that were assigned to the "F" in 1980 (where I rode on that route with them six times) were signed up in the middle route box as "QUEENS-6TH AV. EXP."
On the other hand, the R-10's that were assigned to the "E" during that same year (where I rode even on that route with them twenty times), they were signed up as "QUEENS-8TH AV. EXP."
However, when the R-10's wondered over to the BMT Eastern Division in late 1980-early 1981 (on the "J" and "LL" routes"), there were no new roll signs that were outfitted on the cars. So, they still had their vintage IND-division curtains as printed by the Hunter Illuminated Sign Company, and the signs could have set in any manner (sometimes likely blank).
-William
(Mr. R-10...who else?)
They must have figured it would have been too much of a hassle to install new roller curtains on those R-10s, especially if they were going to be used on the Eastern Division only temporarily. Had they gone over a few years earlier, they could have been fitted with the R-7/9 Eastern Division roller curtains when those old timers were being withdrawn.
One thought: those weren't the same R-10s which ran on the Eastern Division in the 1950s, were they?
Well, the R-10's used in the 1950's on the BMT Eastern Division were of the G.E. series units, cars #3320-3349. Basically, their journey at that time was supposed to give the crew personnel (particularly the train operators) then to break and road test the trains with the SMEE control and propulsion in anticipation of the arrival of the new R-16 fleet that would arriving and assigned to those lines in 1954-55.
The R-10's that wondered over on the BMT Eastern Division was just simply a mixed bag of cars used (both G.E. and W.H.-equipped units). I do recall riding only one train, lead motor #3161, on a complete westbound run on the "LL" line from Canarsie to 8th Avenue-14th Street on February 17, 1981. Some other cars that were known to be photographed being operated on this route included units #3164 and #3211 (the latter seen on the illustrated R-10 car section of this web page).
Oddly enough, a few years later after this particular sojourn in the cars' lives, MTA NYCT did in fact received brand new R-10 side roll signs printed for *all* IND and BMT terminal designations , but I had only seen them in a few graffiti-plagued units (one roll in particular and most notably in #3317). Also, brand new IRT R-12/14/15 roll signs with the contemporary type face (font) were also issued as well, but it was a useless purchase because they were all printed after the cars were retired and scrapped.
-William
Now that you mention it...
I do remember seeing new signs on some of the R-10s which were fixed up and painted green. On top of that, some of the roofline signs were rehabilated to the extent that they were backlit! I had never seen that when they ran on the A. Some cars received new color-graphic bulkhead route curtains, others didn't. The very last train of R-10s I ever rode on had an original route curtain up front, and as I boarded it at Bedford Park, I noticed it was set to HH. Presently, the motorman arrived, got all set up in the cab, and opened the access hatch to check the signs. I casually remarked, "HH?", whereupon he took hold of the crank handle and started cranking until he got to C. I tell you, I wish he'd kept going until it got to A!
Well, let's take this discussion of the newer 1980's-style R-10 roll signs much further, shall we...
When the first green-painted GOH cars were placed in service on Febraury 22, 1985, some of the initial units did have new signs that printed by the MTA NYCT's Bergen Street Sign Shop and/or Harlem Silk Screening. The first version had only terminal and route designations for the IND "C", "G" and "H" lines (plus Special).
The second version for the side roll signs (at least) had all IND and BMT terminal designations, but I personally did not see any new ones printed for the routes, however. I had see some of them only a few equipped cars, including on a graffiti-plagued unit on car #3317. Oddly enough, there were still many cars (including the GOH Westinghouse units) still displaying their older roll signs, which were originally designed and manufactured by the Hunter Illuminated Sign Company of Flushing, Queens.
The third and final version came just before the December 1988 schedule change (the time period when the Archer Avenue subway line would be opened). All older and previous signs (both front and side) were removed from the GOH W.H. units, and were all replaced with newer signs listing only the terminal and route designations of the IND "A", "C", "D" and "H" lines (plus Special and Shuttle that come to mind). Please look at my photos of cars #3186 and #3216 on the illustrated R-10 car section of this web page, and you will see what they finally look liked as evidence.
-William
I think it's safe to say that you and I are probably two of the biggest R-10 fans around.
You're right about the side route signs in that the original curtains remained. I don't remember seeing any new ones. The bulkhead signs were another story. They came in both flavors, and in some cases, on the same car. Sadly, my last experience with the R-10s came on October 26, 1988, so I missed their final year of operation - but not by much. I was in New York on Nov. 1, 2, and 3, 1989, right after that farewell fantrip you were on.
It's funny how things turn out. I was in the city just before the Triplexes ended their careers and didn't see them, and was in the city literally days after the R-10s rode off into the sunset.
And to add to the final chapter overall on the newer R-10 roll signs printed in 1988...
The terminal designation side roll signs, listing both northbound and southbound for all the "A", "C", "D" and "H" (plus Shuttle and Special) on one roller, were printed by Multiple Products, Inc. of Toronto, Canada.
The route side roll signs, listing only the lines above, were printed by Translite, Inc. (or Transign) of Milford, Connecticut.
-William
I may have asked this before, but I'm not sure. On that farewell railfan trip of 10/29/89, did that train run on the A line at all, specifically CPW? It would have been an outrage had it not.
One other thing: did the R-10s run on the A at all during the 1985-1989 period? If they did, I never saw them there.
The farewell fantrip started at 59th Street-Columbus Circle at 10:10am EST, and had operated along these IND-BMT lines: 6th Avenue, Smith Street, Culver, Brighton, Franklin Shuttle, Sea Beach, 4th Avenue, Montague Street, Nassau-Centre Loop, Broadway-Brooklyn, Jamaica Avenue into Archer Avenue lower level, Chrystie Street "KK" line connection, 53rd Street, Queens Boulevard into Archer Avenue upper level, 63rd Street line to 21st Street-Queensbridge, and the 8th Avenue local tracks from West 4th Street into World Trade Center. The trip ended there at 7:45pm EST.
While the trip did not operate on the IND "A" line per se, the last car, #3216, had its front roll sign to say "A" and "207 Street / Manhattan" photographed at Crescent Street and Jamaica Center on the "J" line. When the fantrip train left WTC to go back to 207th Street Yard, that same car was resigned back to say "A" and "207 St." again heading toward back for its final layup.
Finally, during the 1985-1989 period, while no R-10's were assigned to the IND "A" line from 207th Street ever again (the last known run on that line was in early 1983), but during the Williamsburgh Bridge shutdown of 1988, some put-in evening pm rush hour R-10 trains (either the graffiti GE or green GOH W.H. units) from Concourse Yard during that time were placed into service at 125th Street to operate as special "A" expresses to Euclid Avenue only.
Also, when the 50th anniversary of the Apollo Theater celebration was held in 1985, a special chartered eight-car green GOH R-10 train was used to transport V.I.P. celebrity passengers (including Dick Cavett and Mary Wilson) from 57th Street-6th Avenue to 125th Street sporting "A" and "Special" signs in the front. That same train would also be used in the opening musical number seen on an NBC-TV special called "Motown Goes To The Apollo" (the title I think) featuring Bill Cosby as the emcee.
-William
I was in the subway that day to check out the 63rd Street line and I saw the R10 going through Fulton Street northbound. I watched its tail lights disappear up the tunnel towards Chambers Street. One of its signs was set to "QT" (don't remember which). I saw #2974, one of my favorites. I also saw #3018. I realized what was happening and I got a lump in my throat and my eyes got all misty.
I have your old post saved which listed the car numbers.
Wayne
For the record, it was on the lead car #3018 that had the "QT" route set on its front roll sign box, which was really contained the mylar R-32/38 type variety provided by a railfan colleague on that special day (the regular front roll sign case was tucked and locked away in one motorman's cab somewhere on the train). The rear car #3216 kept its normal front route roll sign box intact throughout the fantrip.
By the way and FYI, my three favorite and most important R-10 numbered cars in my personal lifetime were #2974, #3141 and #3194.
-William
Ah, YES...#3194. August 5, 1971. She was the lead motor. Her interior lights (except for the little emergency lights) were OUT. The bracket fans were buzzing away like swarms of bees. I rode her from 59th Street to 207th Street in what seemed like less than twenty minutes. We shook, rattled and rolled at 50 all the way to 125th Street and then did it again in the express tunnel between 145th and 168th. There I am sure we exceeded 50. There's a little curve in there which the T/O gleefully took full tilt. There's also a downgrade to help out the speed. She also lit it up between 190th and 200th-Dyckman.
Every time I hear the song "Don't Pull Your Love Out On Me Baby" by Hamilton, Joe Frank and Reynolds, a hit in the summer of 1971, I think of #3194 and that rocket ride on the A train.
Wayne
Was it still wearing teal and white, or had it been redone in silver and blue by then? I can remember seeing a few R-10s painted silver and blue in late 1970-early 1971. After '71, I didn't ride on another A train again until December 27, 1973, and then it was a short hop from 42nd St. to 59th St.
#3194 was dressed in her teal-and-white livery, with WHITE numerals (only the #1800s retained their orange). Graffitti had not taken hold of her yet. She was a beauty, through and through, even with her interior lights out. It was great watching the tunnel lights throw streaks through the car as we roared along.
Wayne
I always wondered why the R-10s were redone in the half-and-half teal and white after having the narrow teal band at the belt rail with the wider band along the bottom. The earlier scheme was much more appealing to me.
Did you ever notice any bulkhead destination signs carrying a "Fulton St.-Lefferts Blvd" marking? I can remember looking right at the destination sign of many an A train as it would pull into 42nd St., and I could have sworn all I ever saw was the R-1/9 version, "Fulton-Lefferts Blvd." Look at the last photo in the R-10 section, with two A trains at Rockaway Blvd., and you'll see the R-10 coming at you with the former marking, while R-4 #714 on the Manhattan-bound train has the latter. Perhaps Mr. R-10 himself can shed some light on this. (Sorry to be bringing up roll signs again, William.)
Here's one post answering to two related R-10 posts:
1. When the R-10's were originally delivered in 1948-49, their original front destination route had the Fulton Street Line terminal readings as such like "FULTON ST/EAST NY", "FULTON ST/LEFFERTS BLVD" (which was placed there as planned and provisioned for the future), "BROOKLYN/HOYT ST" and "FULTON ST/EUCLID AV". There were also on these same vintage rolls such Queens line readings as "JAMAICA/169th ST" and "JAMAICA/PARSONS BLVD" as well as "JAMAICA/179th ST" (which did not open until 1950), and even a unique "SMITH ST/9th ST" that were visible most frequently when they were assigned to the IND "GG" line during 1977-1985.
However, sometimes even newer printed or replaced front roll signs would later be used following the R-1/9 format such as "FULTON/EUCLID AV", "FULTON/LEFFERTS BLVD" and so on. There would be only just two readings for the Queens line, "JAMAICA/179th ST" and "QUEENS/FOREST HILLS", but there were even some roll signs (both front and side) that added "WAVE CREST" to the readings as well, but disappeared on most subsequent reprintings. Of course, many of the R-10's roll signs would receive as add-ons the "57th STREET" and "BAY PARKWAY" (plus on the side route box only with "B 6th AVENUE") designations circa 1968 or 1969.
2. To answer the question that nobody has asked me yet about the R-10 farewell "fantrip". I knew full well in advance that the cars' days were eventually numbered, particularly when the R-68/68A contract was originally signed in 1982, and I was personally well prepared and had the knowledge already that, like those tired cliches, "all great things must come to an end" or "nothing lasts forever". I was not mournful, misty-eyed or otherwise sad of the R-10's ultimate fate, and I simply accepted that fact with calmness and had learned to be dealt with the notion that the most important factor of myself becoming a true transit buff at age four were the R-10's themselves (being on the IND "A" line in all of their original glory) would finally close its amazing four decade service life.
While I truly didn't want to see the R-10's ever retire or vanished ever (as dreamful and wishful thinking), I simply accepted the reality terms that this veteran and classic fleet would someday no longer provide customer service on the subway again. However, I was only "misty-eyed" ever just once in my entire lifetime, and that was when ABC-TV removed my all-time favorite television show "The $20,000 Pyramid" during its last broadcast on Friday, June 27, 1980 (also the last day of the fifty cent subway and bus fare).
When I look back personally on all the great times for myself on the R-10's as to what they really meant to me, I always relive and remember very fondly (particularly on this message board) as though they are still fresh and alive in my savvy recall and mind. The cars themselves to yours truly were certainly the most influential aspect of this 40-year-old as a rider, a photographer and a true fan. No other fleet, along with them on the sheer strength when they were on my all-time favorite route the IND "A" 'Wash. Hts.-8th Av. Exp.' line, has had a profound powerful effect on myself before and after in my lifetime, and there will never be an other group of transit vehicles like the R-10's at all to that absolutely will ever sway my heart, soul and mind as a suitable replacement. It won't happen at all.
While the R-10's no longer exist (except for just two cars #3184 and #3189), I will always in my own personal viewpoint will keep the spirit and memory alive with this fleet as long there are fans like myself (and Wayne and Steve B) continued discussing its importance and former presence on the NYC subway...especially on the "A" line.
-William
Now you know why the title of Mr. R-10 is rightfully yours.
Judging from that photo I mentioned in my previous post, there had to be at least some R-10s with their original roller curtains as late as 1967-68. I can't believe I cannot recall seeing at least one "Fulton St. Lefferts Blvd." destination sign. On the other hand, I do remember seeing one particular A train in which every teal and white car had doors with double round windows.
It's interesting they didn't splice in "Brighton Beach" signs when such other destinations as "57th St." and "Bay Parkway" were added. I rode on a D train of R-10s once, and its front curtain was blank on the southbound end. Even the photos of B trains show blank front signs when they were headed for 57th St.
I agree with you wholeheartedly: there will never be another subway car like the R-10, and the A line will never be the same without them.
Well, at least it was signed up as an A as it rode off into the sunset. I wonder if anyone tried to offer a bribe for a ride to 207th St. I would have.
Too bad that fantrip didn't start at 125th St.
Now I'm starting to get misty-eyed....
We did run specials out of Concourse Yard in 1989 to supplement A service. I had 3141 on the south which ran as a Fulton Street express to Mott Av, then a deadhead to Pitkin Yard. If I remember correctly the JFK express also ran a supplement with 8 cars to add extra A line service. I wish someone had a camera back then when we had those two R-11 wannabees on the C line. I rarely had R-30 WH on those specials, thank god.
No. I definately remember this fact because when the TA began rebuilding the R38s in 1987, I expected that a couple of R10 would be sent over to the "A" to take up the rush hour slack, but instead, the "A" received the R27s assigned to the "C" at the time.
Also, they never ran the rebuilt R10s in regular "A" train service.
Believe it or not, October 29, 1987 marked the first time I ever rode on a train of R-38s, even though I remember seeing them on the E when they were new. It was Bronx-bound C at 145th St. I don't recall seeing any R-30s on the A, although there were pre-GOH R-38s. I tried to catch the marker light combination, but was unsuccessful.
I said "R27s that were assigned to the "C" at that time" were used from time to time on the "A" train during the rebuilding of the R38s. Not R30s. At that time, R30s were not even on the "C".
Sorry about that. I stand corrected. But I didn't see any R-27s on the A, either.
The first time I saw an R27/30 on the 'C' was March 1987 at Grant Avenue. Thought I was seeing things. That was the predominate model on the 'C' (shared with 10s and 32s)from that point on till their demise in 1992.
During the Williamsburg Bridge closure in 1988, there were special relief fill-ins signed 207th Street to Euclid that ran express in Manhattan in Brooklyn. These were usually 27/30s.
Yes, that might have occured, but I'm talking about regular thru service from 207th Street to either Far Rockaway or Lefferts Blvd that was provided by R27s borrowed from the "C" train during the rebuilding of the R38s from 1987 to 1988.
They not only ran during rush hours, they pretty much ran 24 hours, 7 days a week. Granted there were never more than about 3 or 4 trains in service at a time.
I definately remember this because there were plenty of times I rode these cars to and from Far Rockaway, especially during the summer of 1987. They were hot, slow and very uncomfortable. Some of the cars I rode in were 8173, 8137, 8225.
I also found it strange that no R27 that began with 80 (ie. 8094) never saw service on the "A" or "C" trains.
That was because Pitkin Barn only handled the GE R-27s, which were a big disaster. I had one of the cars in the CAP program burn up at 125 Street no more than one week after they painted them red in early 1989. I clearly remember 8225 in it's tempor tandrems with flickering indication and main light reverser problems. I would have thought the GE R-30 GOH cars would have gotten more miliage than they did but was more shocked to see the TA put any money into the GE R-27s.
I think I see a pattern with the GE cars of that era. Weren't the GE R-16s the ones which were a maintenance nightmare?
If there were only 3 or 4 A trains of R-27s, that may explain why I never saw them. By the fall of 1988, GOH R-38s were finding their way on the A, and I remember waiting for one of those trains to pull in, even letting as many as 4 trains of R-44s pass.
Maybe there are people who just didn't like R-16s. They had the same group switches as their IRT counterparts, the R-17 and R-21s. The reason they were probably so slow is that the era that IND cars were mixed in service was a lot earlier than the IRT. Until the R-21s were scrapped, they were mixed with R-33s and even Westinghouse cars on their last lines, such as the 5 which received Livonia's R-33 cars. It wouldn't have mattered that there were too many dead motors as mixing them with the R-33 cars would keep them in service with minimal maintainance until their next inspection. Then again the GE R-10 cars ran solid as the Green cars in the CAP program were all Westinghouse, due to the reliability of their unit switches. Why the R-17s lasted over ten years longer than the GE R-16 is a good question. Any answers?
I would do something similar. I would let Redbirds pass until I woul get an R-62. Once, there were like 5 Redbirds in a row, EVEN ON THE 4! while I was waiting at Grand Central, I had to finally give up and take a Redbird 4. I came late that day.
I do the same thing with the A most times, but in reverse. I usually let a couple of R38 A trains go, hoping for the R44 and a possible window seat.
I'm the opposite - I usually pass R44's by so I can get an R38 or an R32 and go take the RF window.
Wayne
And i usually let R62's pass by until I get a Redbird on the 4..........
3TM
Now, THATS having a lot of time to spare!!
Tell me about it........ This is only when I dont have anything else to do........
3TM
You and me both. And given a choice between a 4 train of R-62s with a full-width cab and a train of Redbirds, it's no contest. Redbirds all the way!
Yes, I favor the Redbirds when in IRT country. As for my own preference for RF windows - the Redbirds, R32s, R38s, R40M/R42s are all nice, but nothing beats the full-length RF window of a Slant R40.
Wayne
I always hated the slant R-40's until I became the father of a toddler. Thats the only subway railfan window that I don't have to carry him to see out of. And at 46 yrs old I can't hold him for long. My son just makes the LIRR and PATH railfan windows on his tippy toes.
Funny, I couldn't stand the Non-A/C Slants inside but I loved the way they looked. I always sought out the A/C'd R40A's. Then, in 1990, I saw my first GOH'd Slant on the "B". I immediately fell in love all over again with them. However, those seats! UGH! Can't they do something about them? They're tough on the back for sure. Anyway, I NEVER sit in a Slant R40 - I'm always up front watching.
Wayne
That goes without saying. All the more reason to put a few trains of them on the A again.
How is that the reverse of what I did (or at least intended to do)?
I responded to the wrong message. I was referring to the person who stated that he lets the R44 trains pass so he can ride R38's.
Yes, as a matter of fact, they DID say "Queens-6th Ave EXP", and the bulkhead sign was set to "F" above "6th Ave". The train wasn't sardine crowded, but there were a considerable number of standees. I and my newly-acquired Rickenbacker 4001 (black & white) set up alongside a transverse seat and I held onto the curved stanchion for a while. We picked up people at 5th Avenue and Lexington Avenue, but it never got unbearable. I switched to the swing handhold for a while.
We had a good head of steam going in the 53rd Street Tunnel. I had to hold on tight out of Queens Plaza. He took those curves in the bypass pretty quick. Once it thinned out a bit (Roosevelt Avenue), I took up position against a portside centre door. The bracket fans were snarling away in their cages. The lights along the right side roof corner were going on and off and making buzzing sounds. Once we left Union Turnpike, the T/O wrapped it around and all bets (and GT's too!) were off. #3080 was in full flight. It was SMEE heaven - unforgettable. That was the one and only time I ever rode an R-10 on the "F".
#3080 (and her brood) was dressed in grey paint with the blue stripe. The interior was pistachio green except the interior roof which was its original white. I found the car numbers in my "oddities" list: 3080, 3149, 2966, 3244, 3308, 3105, 3012, 3126, 2972, and 3117. Anytime something unusual like that (I considered an R10 on the "F" highly unusual, on par with an R16 or R27/30 being there), I made sure I got ALL the unit numbers.
It's good to see William A.Padron back on the board, too! HI WILLIAM!
LOVE THOSE R10s!
Wayne
The R-10s had the same bulkhead route signs as their prewar counterparts. When they ran on the CC, their side route signs said, "Concourse-8th Ave. Lcl." I had enough trouble accepting the fact they were even on the CC, let alone the E or F. They belonged on the "Wash. Hts.-8th Av. Exp."
Those cars were tailor-made for the express dashes along CPW and Queens. If in your judgment that F train was going even faster than the R-6s at Van Wyck Blvd., and if the R-6s hit Ab above middle C at that point, then chances are those R-10s would have hit A, possibly Bb, above middle C, if they had had spur-cut bull and pinion gears. I'll bet that train was positively thundering down Queens Blvd!
With all due respect to the slant R-40s, nothing will ever top an R-10. Nothing.
Ooh, I missed this post! Thundering was putting it lightly. Once he was out of the Elmhurst/Grand GT trap, he took his toys out to play. Not quite as fast as the burst out of Union but a sustained, 45-50MPH ride, with local stops going by in a quasi-blur of blue and white. An R10 in full flight was a unique experience. HEAVY METAL THUNDER.
Wayne
One can only imagine how the passengers on the local platforms felt as that train roared past. Been there, done that.
Actually, there were two camps of R44s - one was the Jamaica camp, with 160 units, numbered (former numbers) #100 thru #259. These were assigned mostly to the "F" line, although some also occasionally appeared on the "E".
The other camp was assigned to Concourse and were numbered #260 thru #399, 140 cars. These worked the "D" line.
As the R46 cars arrived, they took over on the "E", "F" and "N" lines.
The R40s and R44s were displaced from the "E" and "F" lines to the "A" line and the R10s began turning up on the "CC" and "GG". Between 1977 and 1985, the R40s AND the R44s ran on the "A". IIRC the R40s also appeared on the "AA" and occasionally on the "CC" and "D".
The R40s went for their GOH in 1988-1990 and returned to service on the "B" line. The 4400-series R40s went to Eastern Division about the time the R27s and R30s retired. In 1997, the "B" R40s went to the "Q" in exchange for the R68A.
Wayne
The R-40 Slants also ran on the B before their GOH.
They were on the "A" line along with the R40s. In fact when the R44 test train went into service back in 1971, I believe it was on the "A". If I am wrong, someone please correct me.
I know for a fact when I started riding the "A" everyday beginning March of '77 there were no R44s. Only R10s with one or two R42s (4600 series from the "AA" and "B"). The R44s didn't start arriving on the "A" until May of '77, and they only received half of the fleet (100 - 249). These units arrived from the "E" train. The "D" had the other half of the R44s (250 - 399). (When I say half, I mean the portion of R44s for the NYC Subways-not including the 52 cars for SIRT). The R40s didn't make it on the "A" line until approximately October or November of '77. Since at this time there were only 150 R44s and a hand full of R10s (the bulk went to the "CC" and "GG"), the R40s were the bulk of the service.
The "A" didn't receive the whole fleet of R44s until February of 1981. At that point is when the R44s became the bulk of service with R40s serving also.
The R44s were the bulk of service on the "A" from 1981 until today except for approx. one year (1982 thru 1983) when they were taken out of service altogether and replaced with R38s, and when they were being rebuilt circa 1992-93.
Also, if anybody knows why the R44s were removed from service during the time period I mention above, please feel free to answer. Thank you.
I believe that the reason the R-44's were helod out of service during that time was due to cracks in the wheeltrucks of the R-46's. The R-44's trucks were loaned to the R-46's to keep them running while the R-44's sat around on milk crates. It is interesting to note that the sub contractor for the original R-46 wheel trucks was Rockwell, the company that also had something to due with the cargo doors on the DC-10's.(Nuff said)
Larry,RedbirdR33
That answers alot. I know during that period it was the 44's that I wasn't seeing, (after disappearing from the D) while the 46's (whose brakes whistled upon stopping and starting), were on the E, F and then on the N. Back then I was just learning the R-series numbers, and thought that all of the newer cars were "R-46" (differentiated by being "Pullmans" or "St.Louis". and that the 42's were the 44's; the 40m were the 42's). So when I heard that there were problems with the "R-46", and the "St Louis" cars disappeared, that added to the misidentification. I remember when they werer all lined up in Coney Island yard.
[ I believe that the reason the R-44's were helod out of service during
that time was due to cracks in the wheeltrucks of the R-46's. The
R-44's trucks were loaned to the R-46's to keep them running while the
R-44's sat around on milk crates. ]
They must have made stronger milk crates in those days :)
Seriously, though. I've heard this story before, but was never quite clear about why they took the R44 trucks and put them under the R46's. Why didn't they just pull the R46's altogether? This extra swap seemed like a lot of extra work, and you still could only have one car per 2 trucks afterall..
I will you give the exact date as to when the slanted R-40's made their first appearence on the IND "A" line, based upon my savvy memory recall.
It was on Thursday, October 20, 1977, and the date was four days after my 19th birthday on the previous Sunday, October 16 when I had witnessed for myself the very last time that each and every "A" train was an R-10, and nothing else. Between those dates, it was a mixture of cars placed within that entire line including the R-44's.
-William
(Mr. R-10)
Does the October date coincide with the retirement date of the last of the R1/9s?
Were the R40s deployed on the A due to the change in fleet makeup with the departure of the R1/9s?
Well, the R-1/9's were actually retired from regular service on the BMT "LL" line on March 25, 1977, and finally with just one train assigned to the BMT "J" service in the AM rush leaving 168th Street-Jamaica Avenue towards Broad Street on March 31, 1977. The last R-1/9 train seen on a full-fledged IND division route was rumored to be a train using at least some R-6's on the IND "CC" line in September 1976.
The R-40's being sent to the IND "A" line was really a big change in the car assignment that would send and deploy lots of cars on many different lines as planned beginning within that period (along with the retirement of the veteran R-1/9's). In essence toward it all, the R-40's bumped the R-10's off the "A" and onto the "CC", and the R-46's bumped the Queens-assigned R-44's to the "A" line.
However, when there was an excess amount of R-10's left over as 272 cars were only assigned to the "CC" runs as needed, then some of them started to show up on the "GG" line on a somewhat fulltime basis. Oddly enough, even a few R-10 trains were still seen on the "A" but mostly in rush hours during that time as well.
-William
I do believe that the last remaining R1/9 cars were finally retired in early 1977, and were all located on the BMT J, M and LL lines.
I remember that same weekend when there was nothing but R10s (except one train of R42s) running, after months of nothing but R44s running weekend "A" service. Trust me, after that Sunday (Monday) that's when the R40s just took over the "A" service, after serving on the "CC" for a couple of weeks.
Well, a personal clarification on myself on the topic of the R-40's coming over on the IND "A" line...
The very first time I did see and ride those cars on that line was indeed on the date of Thursday, October 19, 1977. It was during the PM rush hour, and I happened to be standing on the uptown platform at 59th Street-Columbus Circle when a train of them, with their new "A" route signs, entered into the station. I rode them from that location to my now-former home station of 190th Street-Overlook Terrace.
However, with the R-10's operating on that one previous weekend, especially and particularly on my 19th birthday of that Sunday, October 16, I will always fondly remember that moment as the last great occasion as such that IND "A" line would no longer be dominant with that fleet of the cars as they were so closely associated for almost twenty-nine years of the four decades of their incredible service life.
-William
If I may, October 19, 1977 fell on Wednesday. My birthday, Nov. 19, fell on Saturday that year.
Even though I hated to see the R-10s get bumped off the A line as much as you did, the slant R-40s were a worthy successor. They were every bit as fast going up CPW.
Oops, I stand corrected...the first time I rode the slanted R-40's on the IND "A" line was on Thursday, October 20, 1977, actually and really four days after that Sunday. I deeply regret the error on my part.
-William
Hey, no problem. You mentioned that some R-10s did remain on the A, thankfully. I got lucky once in 1979 or so and caught one at 59th St. As it pulled in, all I could think of was, YES!!!! The conductor couldn't close those doors fast enough. They thundered along as if nothing had ever changed.
I meant NOW, not THEN. I saw a mixed slant R40AC with R40M Brake Test cars back in 1970 on the "GG" (the slants were marked "S"). And also mixed Slant R40AC with 4900-series R42 the following year on the "E".
Wayne
[The first 4 car were R32 and the last 6 were R42. The train was in
pasager service.]
That's really crazy!!!
why would mixing R32 and R42 subway cars in passenger service be crazy? other than looking asthetically out of place together the propulsion and braking systems are compatible. R 68a and R 68 look identical, I was told that they could never operate in customer service together. R44/46 and R62/R62a also look alike but also cannot operate lashed togerther in respective consists for passenger service. any technical data that can be shared? I know the Brake pipe/Straight air on R44 is higher and R 46 equipment ...
I saw a mixed B (or was it an N?) train of R68 and R68a just last week for the first time. So these must be compatible.
The powers that be would mix slants with other cars if they could get away with it. The reason why that won't happen is because the safety chains in between cars will not make up.
Carzy but true, I was boarding the R68 D that met with the R32/R42. I thought it was COOL if ya ask me!!
And I saw yet another mixed bag today - this one of four R38s and six MKCo Standard Phase II R32s on the A:
The consist was as follows: 3980-3981, 4128-4129 (the R38); 3432-3433, 3460-3461, 3742-3743 (the R32).
Wayne
Yep, the 207th cars are now mixed. R32s with R38s. I had a few of these on the "C" today.
On Sunday, I took a drive down 1st and 2nd Avenues in Brooklyn and passed by the NY Cross Harbor RR "yard". Besides seeing a great many RTS buses looking like they are about to be scrapped, I saw three new LIRR bi-levels sitting in the NYCH RR yard. One of them, I think, was numbered 4025. I couldn't get the numbers of the other two, and I couldn't get a picture because they were being "obstructed" by freight equipment.
It was my first time in that area of Brooklyn (and I grew UP in Brooklyn!). It would appear from the trolley tracks still in the streets and seen through holes in the pavement that there was, at one time, a considerable network of lines in that area.
--Mark
Mark, you were in the area that I plan on giving a tour in the next month or so ("Brooklyn Waterfront Railway Tour #1").
Can I count on you as one of the participants? Would love to 'have you aboard'.
Those RTS buses you saw are in the shared NYCHRR/SBK yard. That track you saw going across the street and past the Costco parking lot is the sole South Brooklyn Railway trackage that links up with the West End line at 36th St. and 9th Ave.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, I'd love to join you. Lemme know when the date is.
--Mark
Please let me know too.
Doug, if you are going to do this tour on a weekend, I need 30 days notice to try and get the day off. Sat and Sun fill up very quick for AVAs. As for these LIRR cars, please see my early post. If one car was 4025, one other was 4080 ( I missed the first car - closest to waterfront). Apparently, they are coming, not going.
I heard something this morning on 1010 WINS about an early morning accident that sounded very serious. I thought I heard that a helicopter was on its way to the site to medivac victims to area hospitals. Does any one have any specifics on this incident?
Doug aka BMTman
[I heard something this morning on 1010 WINS about an early morning accident that sounded very serious. I thought I heard that a helicopter was on its way to the site to medivac victims to area hospitals. Does any one have any specifics on this incident?]
Didn't hear anything about it, but I can imagine that it created a commuting nightmare of world-class proportions for thousands of motorists. Losing just one peak-direction lane during rush hour will produce over a mile of backups. With a crash that severe, I would imagine that Westchester-bound traffic was backed up as far as the Palisades Interstate Parkway - maybe even the Garden State extension. No doubt a lot of people were wishing there was a rail crossing :-)
Nothing like sitting PARKED in the Lincoln Tunnel for nearly 1/2 an hour. Only plus being I was on a bus with excellent A/C.
-Hank
I remember being parked on the Williamsburg Bridge once a long time ago. A good half dozen QJ trains went by in the meantime. Needless to say, I wished I had been on one of them.
A van plowed into a tractor trailer on the TZ heading westbound (towards Rockland County). About 10 - 15 people were on the van. The bridge was closed westbound as a result and traffic was backed up to White Plains, and eastbound traffic was backed up to the Garden State Pkwy (exit 14A) heading eastbound because of rubbernecking delays AND the left lane was closed for use by emergency vehicles. A medivac helicopter landed on the bridge and was waiting to take injured to area hospitals. I do not know if the helicopter needed to be used at all; when I got to work this morning, news reports were still saying that the helicopter was on the bridge awaiting use.
There was a similar (and fatal) accident about a month ago. Traffic was horrendous.
Another interesting statistic I heard: When the TZ Bridge opened in 1956, 714,000 people lived in the Westchester/Rockland area. Today, it's 1.2 million. No wonder why there are such delays on the bridge when tieups occur.
It's times like this I wish WINS-AM or WCBS-AM had an internet feed. WCBS had one but it was stopped a few years ago because of "corporate policy" (I met Fred Fishkin at PC Expo two years ago and we talked briefly about it); yet I listen to WTOP newsradio out of Washington, DC over the Internet and they're also a CBS station. Go figure.
--Mark
Mark,
WTOP is a CBS radio network affiliate. They are not owned by CBS or its partly-owned radio subsidiary Infinity Broadcasting. CBS/Infinity corporate policy does not apply to WTOP.
Mel Karmazin, CEO of CBS and Infinity Broadcasting, has a company-wide policy of prohibiting netcasting by any of the company-owned stations. I've never seen an official explanation, but from what I've heard, he thinks that netcasting cuts into on-air revenue/audience. (Don't argue with me --- I'd love to have WCBS Newsradio-88 on the net!)
Todd, wasn't WCBS on the net for a couple of months, until Karmazin or Michael Jordan (the CEO) or somebody yanked it off the air?
I've figured out a way to get Imus on the net on a non-CBS/Infinity station, and I agree the ban is pretty backwards-thinking. If Mel had been involved with Hollywood back in the early 70s, he probably would have been in one of those "Stop Pay TV" ads they were showing before every movie.
Yes, WCBS-AM (and other CBS-owned stations) were on the net before the current administration.
My wife and I went out to Bayshore over the past weekend to visit our daughter and naturally we took our elderly Pekingese along with us. She's one of the family. While we were on the train, some bitter, middle-aged lady lashed out at us and told us how rude we were to bring a "filthy beast" on a commuter train. Our dog is well-mannered, rarely barks, and doesn't go near people she doesn't know. LIRR cars aren't exactly the Plaza, so I fail to see what problem there was with us taking our dog along. I am very considerate of others around me when I'm on any form of mass transit, and that doesn't stop where my dog is concerned either. She's never had an "accident" on the train and never moves off my lap. I wish the teen-agers I seem to get stuck with(whether on the LIRR or subway) were as well-behaved as my dog.Thanks for letting me vent my frustration. Salvatore.
Bravo - As an animal lover, I whole-heartedly agree. What was said by the trainmen? Were there complaints from the crew or just the crow?
Nobody said anything to my wife or myself, Steve. The hag who freaked out about us having our dog( in a small, mailbox-shaped, pet carrier ) was the only person to express any sort of reaction. The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.
Her Royal Schnauzerness Princess Beatrice has requested that I post an agreement to your honorable post.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You would have loved my niece. One of the first things she learned to say was bow-wow. All she had to do was see a picture of a dog and she would get all excited. If she saw a real dog, she was in heaven: "Bow-wow, bow-wow" over and over.
She still loves dogs, even though my sister refuses to get one, but she doesn't say bow-wow anymore.
Anyway, it sounds as though you encountered a dog hater, or someone who hates everything and everyone.
If she objected to a filthy beast on the train, why didn't you ask here who let HER on?
After living in and around NYC all fifty years of my life I know I shouldn't be, but I was so amazed that someone could be so cruel and vicious. The "lady" in question had been sitting across the aisle from my wife and I and had been shooting us dirty looks since we boarded the train with our dog in Floral Park. I told her that there was no need for a public tantrum and that if she were that bothered by an eleven year-old, sleeping Pekingese, it was up to her to move to another car. She cursed a little, then kept quiet until she got off the train. I'm constantly surprised at just how hateful some people can be. Salvatore.
As long as you had dog in a pet carrier, I see no problem. The woman was out of order
This past weekend at Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn, NYPD was handing out tickets for all pax with animals not in a pet carrier. The cops make out big on the weekend when people switch from the IRT to a coney is. bound train with the beloved pet.
As long as the pet is in a carrier or is a guide animal I have no problem.
I would be perfectly OK with a rule allowing animals in carriers on commuter trains. Of course, guide animals have to be allowed on all public conveyances (buses, subways, commuter trains, ferries, etc.) and are well-trained not to misbehave. I would not allow carriers on the subway for the same reason bikes on trains are limited, because it's too crowded already! Before someone points out that bikes are not prohibited from trains, only restricted, and thus dog carriers should be similarly treated, note that bikes are supposed to be left behind in an evacuation. Will people leave Fido on the train, or will they obstruct the evacuation carrying the pet carrier off the train and up the evac stairs?
But as to non-crated non-guide dogs, my only response is what then-Food Administrator Herbert Hoover (allegedly) said: you may know that the dog doesn't bite, and I may know that the dog doesn't bite, but does the DOG know that the dog doesn't bite? Maybe I count as a "dog hater," but a dog that is not in a carrier and NOT a guide dog would make me as nervous and uncomfortable on the train as someone (other than police) walking onto the train with a holstered pistol on his belt, even though it is holstered and the person is not acting violent or strange in any (other) way.
I tried to send you several e-mails, but they come back as undeliverable. Any ideas?
You can reach Hank at nixon@nycsubway.org - that's a mail forwarding alias to somewhere else but it seems to work fine.
-Dave
Any address you have for me being at 'infohouse.com' is no good, as I am no longer in their employ. The address I use on my posts is good, as I don't seem to have misspelled it.
-Hank
Mark: There was a response to one of your postings Monday at 2331 signed "R33 Redbird". That was not me. I admit that I don't have an exclusive on the Redbird title but I think someone else uses a variation of people's handles to create mischief.
Best Wishes
Larry,RedbirdR33
Don't worry about it, Larry. Actually I've had this handle for over a year but rarely post messages. Mark knows who I am and it was just a poor attempt at humor and I'm sorry to anyone I offended. The part that maybe wasn't right was that I just wanted to see how many people actually took that post seriously. I normally don't go around teasing people and Mark wasn't sure who I was at first, but now he is.
I think a lot of misunderstanding on this board (and on-line in general) is that some people have a dry sense of humor and by just reading something, you can't tell if a person is being feciscious or if they are seriously mocking a persom. Sorry for any confusion.
R33 Redbird: So that was you that posted some months ago. As I said in an earlier post I don't have an exclusive on the "Redbird" name but if your using a handle very similar to someone else it might be a good idea to modify it with a first name or by some other means to avoid confusion. I always try to sign my posts as "Larry,RedbirdR33"
You'll notice that some of the posters with the same first name add an initial to identify themselves.
No offense taken,best wishes,
Larry,RedbirdR33
Here I thought I was no longer confused. One of you Redbirds, along with one other gentlemen, gave me the title Sea Beach man. I now confused which one it was. Please clear this up for me because I don't need to start getting fuzzy in the head again
Fred: I believe that I started calling you MR Sea Beach after Steve did. I'm Larry,RedbirdR33 and I've been the one responding to your post. R33 Redbird is someone else who posts infrequently. See the previous message in this thread.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,RedbirdR33: Got it; maybe the other guy could get a different number. Thanks.
Gentlemen, I was the one who originally "bermanized" the title of Mr. Sea Beach on Fred. Say, Fred, do you have or have you considered personalized license plates along that theme? I've had a blast with my 8AVEXP plates; in 8 1/2 years, only one person has ever made the connection with New York and the A train. Something like 4SEABCH would be cool; I've toyed with NBWYEXP myself. (Colorado plates now have seven characters; when I got my plates, they had six.)
Steve B. aka 8AVEXP: It seems to me that all I saw was Steve B before a day or two ago when 8AVEXP appeared. You threw me off. OK, you were the first to call me Mr. Sea Beach; Redbird,R33 the second. I'm indebted to both of you for that. I hope it doesn't sound silly. So you live in Colorado, eh? It's hard to figure out who lives where, but I can tell you this: Your idea for my new license plates sounds like a great idea, and the 4SEABCH or something like that is great. I'm going to look into it very soon. Thanks.
Sorry if I threw you a curve, Fred. I figured I'd come clean and let everyone know. The plates cost me an additional $25 per year, but it's worth it. BTW, Pee Wee Reese, if he's still alive, is 81 today. He had been battling prostate cancer of late.
This afternoon I received the following E-Mail from someone who did not identify themself. I felt since the jist of the message stemmed from my posting on Subtalk, I should respond here too. This is the message:
"What is your problem with the cleaners? Im really sick and tired of reading your posts complaining of these folks. Do you feel that cleaners are not your equal because of education or race. Whats the deal? Are there any cleaners that you do like? Give them a break huh!"
First of all, you do not know enough about me to assume anything about education or race as far as I am concerned. However, since you, by your message seem to imply that Car Cleaners are all minorities or all less educated, I think that it is you who has a problem. Having said that, let me tell you how I feel regarding my "problem with cleaners".
First of all, I have no problem with cleaners as such. The former TWU chairperson at Concourse Shop and the Vice chairperson at jamaica Shop are both cleaners. I have enjoyed very close working relationships with both. There are at least 2 others that I am close enough to, on apersonal level that they are comfortable enough to call my home for help or advice. I know that this sounds like, "Some of my best friends are cleaners" but take it on it's face.
My problem with cleaners as a group is simple. Every NYCT manager has goals that he or she must meet. I have 77 cleaners, 40 car inspectors, 18 RCIs and 14 supervisors as either direct or indirect reports. While the cleaners are barely more than 50% of the total, they take up more than 90% of my time spent on administration. Cleaners as a group require more supervision, more direction and much more discipline than the other titles I deal with. They are directly responsible for my failure to achieve my availability and safety goals. They take double the sick leave, have more accidents, and violate rules at a rate 6 times higheer than other titles. In the past year, I have been embarrassed twice by cleaners who have snuck off their work location and were arrested for committing crimes while on duty. One was arrested for soliciting an undercover police woman for sex and the other was arrested for attempting to Pick-Pocket a sleeping customer on an E train at Parsons/Archer station.
This represents a small fraction of cleaners, however. A very large number of my cleaners have adopted a stronger work ethic since coming to work for me. Many others have gone on to be promoted at a rate higher than the title in general. During the current pick (that concluded today) most of those 77 picked back despite what you perceive as my problem with cleaners. This should not be construed as a softening of my position, the CTAs still take a disproportionate amount of my very valuable time.
Finally, if you are sick and tired of hearing what I have to say about cleaners, skip my posts. There are many, many other interesting people posting here who's thoughts you'd likely be happier reading.
Subtalkers may be interested to learn that an auction being held by
Lloyds International Auction Galleries (on behalf of London Transport)
(118 Putney Bridge Road, London SW15 United Kingdom)
on July 31st at 9am (viewing from noon 5:30pm Thursday July 29 & 9am-7:30pm Friday July 30th)
will contain over 100 lots of LONDON UNDERGROUND items mainly
enamel station signs,train fittings, destination signs AND
(yes this is true!)
AND......
a complete 4 car train of 1962"tube" stock.
.
I understand more than one set of stock is available so if anyone is interested, note the time and venue above. Further details will be posted when available.
Regards
Rob :^)
London
United Kingdom
Update to last posting, hot breaking press release is that a 1959 Tube stock
set is now included in the Auction in London.
Subtalkers check the following page from the official LONDON TRANSPORT
web site, recently upgraded.
.
http://www.londontransport.co.uk/underground/press/pn1193.htm
.
Auction is on Saturday July 31st 1999 at 9am London Time.
regards
Rob :^)
Perhaps the MTA should bid - I'm sure they could get it shipped over here and modified as necessary long before any of the R142/143s will be available for use!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You would not want it, the poor things are in a dreadful state. Anyway there is no AC or "Railfan window"
Simon
Swindon UK
Ahhh ... now we know. Thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's right - London tube rolling stock has full-width cabs with no windows in the doors. Bummer. It's the same story in Montreal, but I was able to peek through the door hinges and get a glimpse of the tunnel ahead.
Try Newcastle upon Tyne. There are excellent views forward there.
Wish I could attend. Is the auction catalog available on the web anywhere? Rob, you'll have to go for us and pick out some cool items to ship stateside. :)
LLOYDSINTERNATIONAL@compuserve.com
is the e-mail for the Auctioneers.
They will be happy to list the large ammount of station signs and other items for sale.
Regards
Rob :^)
I wouldn't mind having an Earl's Court or Piccadilly Circus station sign, or, perhaps, Leicester Square or Tower Hill. Those are the stations I frequented in 1978. Then, of course, there's Baker Street.
I don't suppose transit museums are in vogue in the U. K., are they?
[ I don't suppose transit museums are in vogue in the U. K., are they? ]
There are several museums, specializing in different aspects of rail transportation. (i.e. Trams(streetcars), and mainline railways).
We do have superb musuems and preserved railways here in the UK. Come over and check us out.
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon/Rob, one of you must know this...
On one of my visits to London I took the train out to Hampton Court. Along the way I saw what appeared to be some sort of small, miniature, narrow-guage, garden railway (I'm not sure what to call it). Do either of you have any idea what I'm talking about? Is it something open to the public or just some model railroader with a set up in his backyard?
-Dave
There are lots of miniature railways all over the UK some private sum public. I shall try and look up the one on the the route to Hampton Court in my book. If it is private it will not be listed. I shall get back soon
Simon
Swindon UK
If the U.S. had the same participation in rail preservation as Britain, there would be 10 TIMES as much preserved rail infrastructure in America as now. The Brits know that cameras don't preserve trains, SWEAT and wrenches do. Learn from the British.
One big regret: apart from one or two dedicated organisations, us Brits are not very interested in preserving electric trains, especially in working order. Yes, there are some exceptions, but I would have loved the chance to ride on some of the long vanished Underground trains. F stock or P stock running express to Uxbridge for instance. Now impossible forever.
Might I suggest the following site which gives links to all preserved railways and museums in the UK http://www.uel.ac.uk/pers/1278/Rly-Pres/info.html
Perhaps the largest preserved railway (and my favourite) is the Great Central Railway pay it a visit at www.gcrailway.co.uk thias also has a link to the above site.
We have so many railway sites over here. There is even a railway museum and preserved railway in my home town of Swindon. Come over and see us as soon as you can.
Simon
Swindon UK
Does not the London Transport Museum have a collection of preserved surface and tube stock, well housed in west London. I have seen photos of the preserved surface stock cars in use recently on a regular line.
Perhaps they operate their preserved cars similarly to the NY transit museum for fans, films, ads, etc -no?
London Transport has two museums, the "famous" one being at Covent Garden in Central London. Only single cars are displayed here due to
space limitations, so a second museum (which will open in August)
has been organised using surplus car sheds in the Acton area of west
London. This "new" facility will allow full train length exhibits to be displayed however this facility is NOT open to the general public.
Currently the only two trains "preserved" are:
1938 tube stock 4 car set (now being restored to become operational)
1962 tube stock 3 car set ( privatley owned by railfan group)-fully
operational.
It is hoped a train of 1959 or 1962 stock will join the collection later this year when it becomes extinct on the Northern Line.
The museum policy appears to be to preserve single driving cars
rather than complete train sets as examples of Londons heritage.
Regards
Rob :^)
Rob,
I am sure I read somewhere that they also have a set of pre-1938 stock rescued from the Isle of Wight that will be restored to running order eventually, although if this is true then I think they should make this restoration the highest priority.
Max
Yes they certainly do Max, but all the cars of 1934/31 stock seem to be rusting away deep inside Acton Works.
For the record
3706 1934 Metro Cammell ex Isle of Wight #2
3209 1931 Metro Cammell ex Isle of Wight #7
3690 1934 Metro Cammell ex L130 pilot motor
3701 1934 Metro Cammell ex L135 pilot motor
trailer 7281 (1923 Cammell Laird) ex Isle of Wight #44 also stored.
.
Would be nice to see a set formed up of this stock, age is no barrier
as Loco #12 "Sarah Siddons" is still going strong and that is 1922
vintage!
Regards
Rob :^)
Thanks for the clarification. I stand corrected.
I'll see what I can do Steve.
Simon
Swindon UK
As long as you don't want originals, there are plenty of enamel station names for sale at the LT museum. Perhaps the NY and LT transport museums should have some sort of recriprocal arrangement.
I thought they did. When I was in London in 1989, there was NY Transit Museum stuff available for sale at London Transport's museum at Covent Garden. Maybe it expired ....
--Mark
Nothing there the other day Mark. Why not some of your videos ? They would sell like hot cakes.
Simon
Swindon UK
I'd probably fall into the same situation the two of us had - too costly to convert from NTSC to PAL.
--Mark
How come the CPW line and the Eastern Pkwy line are two levels? Both streets are wide enough to carry 4 tracks?
The Eastern Parkway Line is two levels because the BMT must share space under the avenue with it for most of the way. The CPW line is two levels because when they built it, they wanted the stations on one side of the street only, because the other side is taken up by the park. I would suggest getting Peter Dougherty's track map book. It explains everything. Happy Riding!!
Actually, the IRT and BMT bump elbows under Flatbush Ave.; the IRT has Eastern Parkway all to itself while the BMT tunnel continues along Flatbush Ave. to Prospect Park. AFAIK, the reason the line was built with two levels was so as not to disturb the trees which were growing in the median of Eastern Parkway. The trees are gone now.
Tony's observation of CPW is correct.
Not all the trees are gone. The new connection to the Frankln shuttle had to be built in a way to not disturb some trees, supporting your answer that the trees are what influenced the IRT construction.
I had always speculated that the reason the Central Park West line was two levels was somehow related to the park. Recently, though, I noticed that the tracks are actually on the east (park) side of the street.
I was wondering if the track placement doesn't have more to do with keeping the tracks as far away from the residential buildings (which, I'm assuming housed some of the city's wealthiest then as they do now). Even today, the residents on the lower floors on CPW complain that their million dollar apartments shake when the train goes by. (We should all have such problems!)
I would imagine that people who live on the East Side as they crowd into a packed #6 train, or stand on a platform full of people waiting for the #6 would LOVE to have that kind of problem.
BTW, I think the CPW line was constructed that way as to prevent any exits having to be put on the park-side of CPW. If it was built in a traditional express/local layout there would have to be a third, mezzanine level at each station to achieve this.
If those residents are still complaining today, I can only imagine how they felt back in the good old days when the R-10s roared up and down CPW. You could feel rumbling on the fourth floor of the Museum of Natural History. If you stood in the basement and looked toward the subway entrance as an A train went by, you would see a blur of light.
I remember coming home from my friend's house on W.90th Street, waiting for the "AA" train (invariably an R32) at 86th Street and hearing that ominous rumble long before it arrived in a headlong rush of blue and grey - the unmistakable sound of an R10 in full flight. Watching it roar by was a thrill, the air stirred up as it went by was enough to send papers on the platform flying. Neither the R32s or the 4700-series R42s then running on the "D" then seemed to equal the brute force of the R10.
The buzzing bracket fans in their little cages (sneering down at the passengers), the ogee roof, the curved stanchions, the turned-in straps, the transverse seats (plus the reverse-facing seat at the car end), the little signs in the slots over the side windows, the pinkish flourescent light, the little vents along the roof edges, the conductor out between cars working the triggers, the phenomenal speed, the sheer NOISE, the bouncing, swaying ride: Fond subway memories are made of this.
Wayne
I would get the same feeling at 81st St. It had to be back in May of 1967. We rode in from Paterson by bus to Port Authority and took an AA of venerable R-1/9s to the Museum of Natural History. When this train pulled into 42nd St., I immediately noticed the recessed areas on the doors, almost inviting you to try to pull them apart. Of course, I was blown away by the assorted sounds those old timers gave off, especially the bull and pinion gears doing their impression of an operatic tenor (E above middle C) between 59th and 72nd Sts. On top of that, most of the side destination signs were illuminated! We got off at 81st St. and as our train left, we started our trek to the museum entrance. It was a rainy day, and water was dripping from the ceiling to the tracks. At this point in time, I hadn't grasped the concept of local and express tracks and trains, as the subway was still new to me. I looked at the express track behind the pillars as we walked along, wondering what it was and that was all about, when an ominous rumble began, heightened to a roar, and there it was - a blurry streak of teal and white thundering past. Man, what was that train?!? Then, as we were leaving later that afternoon, we were greeted by a blast of air while entering the subway through the revolving doors along with a similar heightening roar. Only this time, a distinctive musical whine accompanied this rush of sound. It was a D train, howling away at F# above middle C. Once again, I was transfixed. We reached the downtown platform and boarded an AA train, and the next thing I knew, a D train appeared alongside us, running neck-and-neck. I can still see the illuminated "Coney Island" signs on the car sides. Presently our train slowed down for 72nd St. while the D train kept right on going.
I wonder what it would be like if the doors on today's cars opened and closed as fast as they did on the R-10s. It would be more along the lines of - whooooops! Better not hold those puppies open! There was an R-44 last fall whose doors reminded me of the BMT standards. Remember how slowly they would open and close? I thought, oh great - first the cars, now the doors. Sheesh.
Your vivid description of the R-10s really hits home. One other detail: I actually saw a few backlit side destination signs on them after they were fixed up and painted green! Never before, though.
# more LIRR double-deckers, including cab-control car 5013, near Oak Island this morning.
There is a concept drawing of the new M7 for the LIRR, to be bulilt by Bombardier in the August issue of RailNews. It's got pantograph gates on the front, for pete's sake! It also looks like it has a SINGLE door panel, instead of a split, an LCD destination sign above the engineer, and a 'railfan widow' (sic)
The article notes the cars will have full-width cabs.
-Hank
I read about htem too they are goin to replace the M-1s that date from the 60s or the seventies
Oh man. The M-1 was a SLICK looking car for it's time, heck, still is. 90% of that is the nice, clean, front end of it. LCD destination sign? To replace the heavily used ones on the current M-1's?
Anyway - this concept drawing online anywhere?
The M1 may look clean & sleek, but they don't perform that way! Hope the M7's have round wheels! Compare the mileage put on those cars to NYC subway cars. Seldom have I ever seen the current destination sign used. Maybe the LED sign will be properly utilized.
The LIRR M-1s may be sluggish, and clunky - but the Metro-North ones seems to be MUCH better - I don't recall any flat wheels in my trips on MN. Also faster, I've heard of 80 - 90 top speeds on them - remember, those trains had to be able to do 100 when new. Are they retaining the inboard bearing trucks? I have mixed feelings on them - while they look damm slick and I've heard are cheap to service, the ride is AWFUL, and I seem to be under the impression they beat up the track a lot. Personally, I'd like to se a radial truck, either inboard or outboard on the equipment, or at the least a better truck than the current ones (PioneerIII?)...
I've riden a Babylon line train may times where it was doing 70 or so as it passed Green Acres.
Mr t__:^)
>>Maybe the LED sign will beproperly utilized. <<
Yup, I can see it now:
"SHORT TRAIN"
"HOT TRAIN/NO AC"
"CAR NOT OPEN WALK BACK 4 CARS"
Don't forget:
CAB DOOR OPEN
CAR DIRTY
WINDOWS DIRTY
RUDE CONDUCTOR ON BOARD
NO LIGHTS
TRAIN SLUGGISH
TRAIN LATE
TRAIN REALLY LATE
TRAIN REALLY REALLY LATE
HA HA SUCKERS!!!!
THIS EXPRESS IS NOW A LOCAL
BTW - on the cab door issue - anyone know what the rule is on keeping it open? I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be closed, but I'd love to know what the actual wording of it is...
[ There is a concept drawing of the new M7 for the LIRR, to be bulilt by
Bombardier in the August issue of RailNews. It's got pantograph gates
on the front, for pete's sake! It also looks like it has a SINGLE door
panel, instead of a split, an LCD destination sign above the engineer,
and a 'railfan widow' (sic) ]
Someone said something about them having round wheels. Heh -- I'm sure they will when delivered, but give them 5 years of LIRR^H^H^H^H no maintenance, and they'll be as square as the current fleet's are.
What I want to know, is will they give us windows that open, so that when the A/C is broken (often), there will at least be a way to ventilate the darned things.
Gotta admit that the LIRR maintenance leaves much to be desired. The flat wheel problem has been raised by an auditor hired by the MTA to audit MNRR, LIRR and NYCT maintenance practices. As for the A/C problem, the LIRR has the short-term fix they've used for the past few years. Tie-wrap the end doors open. I even carry my own supply of tie-wraps for when the conductor runs out.
BTW- talk of opening windows. The other day the A/C went out on my Ronkonkoma-bound train (head car). Unfortunately we were being held at Farmingdale waiting for the trackwork to clear. The engineer (a shapely blond, I add only paranthetically) opened her cab window for air and to hear the radio from the platform, where she was cooling off. When she opened the window, however, the latch fell off making it impossible for her to close the window. I took out my trusty philips screw driver and removed the necessary hardware from the Conductor's window. As the train left Farmingdale, I squeezed into the cab - behind her and repaired the window for her. See - even with regard to the LIRR maintenance, there is a silver lining to every dark cloud...
But that's not why you did it.....(I add parenthetically?)
Anyhow, the M7 design is pretty damned close to the current M cars. The cyclops headlight is more integrated into the body as well.
-Hank :)
The trouble is, tie wrapping doors doesn't do much. I'm at a loss to understand WHY the LIRR's A/C is so lousey anyway. I guess they'll fix it once passengers start openinging the emergency windows to get venting in there. Metro-North was smart (as usual?), and their trains have windows that open at the top like a subway car. It's a retrofit the LIRR can probbly do too, and should have years ago.
Of course - fixing the engineer's window by removing the latch to the conductor's one means the conductor can't come along and close it:) (again :)
IIRC, NYC Transit's R-38, R-40, and R-42 cars (which date from the same time as the initial order of M-1s) had AC reliability problems that stemmed from two things (besides iffy maintenance):
1. Leaky freon tubing - the compressors would chug along, but nothing would happen
2. Mercury bulb thermostats - the mercury would congeal at one end of the tube or the other, and either the AC wouldn't click on, or it wouldn't shut off
The R-44s (as built) also had mercury bulb thermostats.
Of course, LIRR has had 30 years to improve or replace the AC and doesn't seem to have done so.
David
[The trouble is, tie wrapping doors doesn't do much. I'm at a loss to understand WHY the LIRR's A/C is so lousey anyway. I guess they'll fix it once passengers start openinging the emergency windows to get venting in there. Metro-North was smart (as usual?), and their trains have windows that open at the top like a subway car. It's a retrofit the LIRR can probbly do too, and should have years ago.]
Unfortunately it appears that you don't quite understand the problem with the A/C on the NYCT or the LIRR.
"1. Leaky freon tubing - the compressors would chug along, but nothing would happen"
If there were a freon leak in the tubing the compresor would not chug along. The LPS (low pressure switch) would sense the lack of gas and not pewrmit the compressor motor to run. Second, the most prevalent failure mode for A/C is the failure of the compressor itself. The thermoking/crystaline compressor used in most NYCT cars and busses dates back to the 70s or 80s. They are made of aluminum. Unfortunately, the most ambitious overhaul can not compensate for the deforming of the compressor housing. Due to warpage, gaskets will frequently let go as will the shaft seals. The only real solution is to trplace the compressor. Hence, I would not refer to the maintenance as "iffy". I think it could be referred to as ill-advised.
Was the situation thus in 1967-70, when the R-38 through R-42 AC cars were being delivered? If so, I stand corrected; apparently, the person who explained it to me (yes, he was a NYCT employee) didn't give me the whole story or didn't have a full understanding of the situation himself.
David
[Unfortunately it appears that you don't quite understand the problem with the A/C on the NYCT or the LIRR.
"1. Leaky freon tubing - the compressors would chug along, but nothing would happen"
If there were a freon leak in the tubing the compresor would not chug along. The LPS (low pressure switch) would sense the lack of gas and not pewrmit the compressor motor to run. Second, the most prevalent failure mode for A/C is the failure of the compressor itself. The thermoking/crystaline compressor used in most NYCT cars and busses dates back to the 70s or 80s. They are made of aluminum. Unfortunately, the most ambitious overhaul can not compensate for the deforming of the compressor housing. Due to warpage, gaskets will frequently let go as will the shaft seals. The only real solution is to trplace the compressor. Hence, I would not refer to the maintenance as "iffy". I think it could be referred to as ill-advised.]
I was not around (railroad-wise) in 1967. My feeling is that with the TA being at or near the bottom of the learning curve as far as A/C is concerned, the problems were more design related.
Actually, now that I think about it, I was told about the leaky tubing and about the mercury bulb thermostats (was my source correct there?). I added the part about the compressors kept going on my own. Assuming that there was a Low Pressure Switch and it was working properly, what would cause a hot car even with the compressor(s) and blowers working? Also, since the M-1s are from the same vintage as the R-38 through R-42 classes, would their AC be of a similar design?
David
I preface this bu saying that A/C is the one area of the subway car where my knowledge is embarrassingly limited so the answer below mys seem simplistic or incomplete. Sorry about that.
In order for the system to function, both the blower and the compressor must run. There is a sensor (most commonly called a differential pressure sw. that senses that the blower is operating and permits the compressor to run. If the compressor is running the assumption is that the blower (evaporator fan) is functioning and the system is at least minimally charged. Hence, there are only a few possible failure modes. The evaproator, like your home unit is protected by a filter. If the filter is clogged, insufficient air flows over the evaporator, reducing the cooling effect and increasing the liklihood of water carry-over and freeze-up. Second is an inoperative expansion valve. In the AC system the expansion valve requlates the flow of freon into the evaporator. Finally, depending on the compressor, valves called unloaders are used to increase or retard cooling depending on demand. I stuck unloader will prevent sufficient flow through the system.
Makes sense. Thanks!
David
[In order for the system to function, both the blower and the compressor must run. There is a sensor (most commonly called a differential pressure sw. that senses that the blower is operating and permits the compressor to run. If the compressor is running the assumption is that the blower (evaporator fan) is functioning and the system is at least minimally charged. Hence, there are only a few possible failure modes. The evaproator, like your home unit is protected by a filter. If the filter is clogged, insufficient air flows over the evaporator, reducing the cooling effect and increasing the liklihood of water carry-over and freeze-up. Second is an inoperative expansion valve. In the AC system the expansion valve requlates the flow of freon into the evaporator. Finally, depending on the compressor, valves called unloaders are used to increase or retard cooling depending on demand. I stuck unloader will prevent sufficient flow through the system.]
Hey on one train peole got covered by the liquid when the ac broke
What liquid? All of the refrigerants used in modern (read: since the end of ice refrigeration) a/c systems are gases. The only liquid would be condensation, and that dripping on someone doesn't mean the a/c is broken, just that the condensate drain is plugged.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's the liquid - it's water (albeit dirty water). Not uncommon either - the fix is often just clearing out the plugged drain hole on the bottom - you shouldn't see that happen ever, if the A/C is given a once over every year (like is probbly should get)
> What liquid? All of the refrigerants used in modern
> (read: since the end of ice refrigeration) a/c systems
> are gases. The only liquid would be condensation, and
> that dripping on someone doesn't mean the a/c is broken,
> just that the condensate drain is plugged.
I don't dispute that this particular problem was merely dripping condensation, but there are (AFIAK) some A/C systems which use ammonia as a refrigerant. At some stages of the cycle, the ammonia will very likely be liquid.
Due to the risks involved, ammonia is only (IIRC) used in large-scale fixed installations (sports arenas, office towers, etc).
CH.
It's not going to be used in trains. They have to be very level to work right (useually). Servel(?), whirlpool, and a few others made gas fired A/Cs and refidges for homes in the 40's 50's. They fell out of favor because they have a longer cooling cycle than freon based systems (they take longer to get cold). Plus the hassals of piping gas to the unit.
What you are thinking of is called an "absorbtion" system. They apparently worked well enough...
Most systems use chilled water now. They cool the water, and then circulate that, instead of freon or ammonia.
-Hank
As I have said, A/C is one of my weakest areas but AFAIK, freon does exist as a liquid in the A/C system. In all (freon based) refrigeration/AC systems, the refrigerant exists in two states, as a liquid and as a gas. The purpose of the compressor is to convert the gas to a liquid. This liquid is 'sprayed' into the evaporator. The ambient heat is used to convert the liquid back to a gas, thus cooling the surrounding air. Having said this, if a 'liquid' refrigerant line were to burst, the sudden drop in pressure would cause the refrigerant to boil away, instantly. If people get wet wrom an A/C unit, it's likely due to condensation in an overflowing evaporator tray due to a plugged drain or clogged filters.
Yes, as I understand it your explanation is correct. I should have made that point in mine. Thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Impossible, Freon has a boiling point of about 245 K, which makes it impossible to be a liquid anyplace where humans can be. The other liquid, happens to boil at 373 and is not fatal, in fact, it's absence is fatal!
Which 'other' liquid? Ammonia, water?
-Hank
Well, since I said that it's absence is fatal, I doubt that an absence of Ammonia is fatal to anyone (the opposite actually). 373 K=100 deg C. Anyway, Ammonia hasn't been used in air conditioning in years.
We also know that Steve is one of those management types (like me), so the TWU will probally write him a thank you.
Mr t__:^)
"Of course - fixing the engineer's window by removing the latch to the conductor's one means the conductor can't come along and close it:) (again :)"
A yee of little faith. Next time you are on an M-1 look at the window. Not the ones that slide as on the M-3s but the one that drops down. Three screws hold the latch of which, I only removed one. That was all that was needed to get me into the cab with Ms. engineer (after all).
Do you need an authentic 3 light signal in your den or train room?
Take a look at this!
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=134653055
Does anyone have information regarding an IND subway under Pitkin Ave at 76th Street in Queens? The station,4-track tunnel, and yard leads were built and sealed up.
Not sure if a station was built, but the Fulton St. line was not originally intended to be connected to the Liberty Ave. El. It was supposed to continue as subway all the way into Springfield Gardens.
Here again Peter Dougherty's subway track plan book makes it easy for you to see that the underground IND was planned to continue, but made a sharp turn to the North to connect with the El. It shows track stubs from the yard as well as the main line.
Mr t__:^)
Supposedly, the Fulton St IND has trackage that runs beyond the connection to the Fulton El at City Line. Also unknown is whether or not a station exists east of that point as well.
Also, the 4th Ave (Brooklyn) line may have been equipped to be 4 tracks south of 59th St. The bridge over the LIRR Bay Ridge branch has girder support for 4 lines, only of which the northern 2 are used by the R line. Also, on the walls of the 86th St's Manhattan bound side, you can see bricked up "escapes" in the wall. Is there anything behind there? Trackways? Just a large area for "future" excavation should a Staten Island line be built? No one knows. Finally, there were plans to extend the line to 101st Street but nothing was built past 95th.
--Mark
Mark; I am looking at a track map of the IND drawn by Dave Rogoff dated 6/11/65 and it shows quite clearly the track arrangement east of Euclid Av and the proposed 76 Station. It also shows a bulkhead located probably at the Grant Av and states that the structure east of that point was never built. There are three two track yard leads coming out of the Pitkin Yard. One set (A5,A6) goes west to Euclid and one (K5,K6)goes more or less north to Grant Av, the third set (A7,A8) runs in an easterly direction and were intended to link into the Fulton St Line west of 76 Av Station. These also end in a bulkhead.
If the station at 76 St and Pitkin Av were ever built I would imagine some evidence would be visible from the street level in the form of ventilation shafts or provision for staircases. Does anyone live near this location who could check this out?
I'll be off line for a few days so if I don't respond please don't think its bad manners.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ah yesh, Mark - the Subway still withholds some of her secrets from us. Supposedly the IND subway station at 76th Street and Pitkin Avenue exists as a shell, a local station (would be purple family a la Euclid if tiled). There has also been some talk of one at 84th Street and Pitkin as well. I can't see where this line would have gone - its eastward path is neatly bisected by Aqueduct Racetrack and there are no main streets eastward of there.
Some arguments for the provision for the other two tracks for 4th Avenue is that 77th and Bay Ridge only have pillars on the southbound platforms.
Wayne
Wasn't Aqueduct Racetrack built after the plans for the Pitkin Avenue subway was scuttled? I thought that Aqueduct only came into existance in the late 1940's or early 1950's.
From the New York Racing Association Website:
"Aqueduct opened on September 27, 1894 in Queens. In 1941 a new clubhouse and track offices were built. The New York Racing Association came into existence in 1955 as a non-dividend, tax-paying organization and purchased the assets of Belmont Park, Aqueduct, Jamaica and Saratoga tracks. The old Aqueduct was torn down in 1956 and the new "Big A" reopened in 1959."
To the best of your knowledge, did Linden Blvd. ever, at any time, run through what is now the Aqueduct parking lot, between Centreville St. and Rockaway Blvd?
Bob Sklar
[ Was Linden Blvd. continuous? ]
That's a really good question to which I wish I had a really good answer.
I kind of assumed that since it breaks at Aqueduct, then picks up again towards Valley Stream, it was once a continuous highway.
However, going back to the Geodetic Survey Map of 1888, Brooklyn Quadrangle, it would appear that at the time Linden Blvd. didn't even get as far as the Brooklyn Aqueduct (Conduit Blvd).
An incomplete 1920 map suggests it may not have been called Linden Blvd. east of Remsen Ave. I also have other notes which seem to show that what is now Linden Blvd. encompassed other street names, including Hegeman St. and Lorraine Ave.
So I'm afraid I've just added to the mystery, and I'm curious, too.
Paul and Bob, I have some info that might help all of us on just this topic in the near future. Turns out a guy named Ken Oskosciewicz (sp?) is currently working on a tome about Brooklyn's original street names and routes. He's a celebrated tour-guide at the Transit Museum and I believe he also lectures at ERA events.
Doug aka BMTman
<<guy named Ken Oskosciewicz is currently working on a tome about Brooklyn's original street names
and routes. >>>
I'm really interested in this sort of thing. Know where I can get in touch with him? E mail address?
Kevin, I will try to track him down for you. I believe he may be a "non-computer person" if you know what I mean. Otherwise I'm sure he'd be posting here.
BTW, you have a nifty website and I've turned a number of my friends and co-workers on to it. Keep up the good work.
Doug aka BMTman
My family once had a old maps from the 60's, including a zoning map that showed Linden going all the way through. I don't know if it was true. They also showed all the ENY streets extended past Flatlands into Spring Creek all the way to Seaview, and the Starret City cross streets (Schroeders, etc) crossing them all the way to Fountain Av.
So these may have simply been plans.
Linden Blvd. has a strange history, as far as NYC streets go. It's really a collection of otherwise unconnected roads.
The oldest section is between Flatbush Avenue and Kings Highway. That part was known as Linden Avenue on a 1915 Hammond NYC atlas that I have.
The section between Kings Highway and Conduit Boulevrd is relatively new. The multiple lane highway was built in the 1930s and took the place of an older road known as Vienna Avenue. Most likely, Vienna wasn't paved or was nonexistent in some areas.
East of Conduit Blvd. Linden is present at Pitkin Avenue and Sitka Street as a dead end. There is also a short stretch between Cross Bay Boulevard and Hawtree Street. On some maps from the 40s and 50s Linden is shown extending through Aquecuct Raceway. This most likely is the dream of a city planner.
The stretch of Linden between Rockaway Road (now Blvd) and the Queens line is shown on the 1915 Hammond Atlas as Central Avenue. In 1915 this area was only starting to emerge from its rural beginnings.
What I think happened is this: there was a grand plan to run Linden Blvd. as a 'through' boulevard all the way from Conduit Blvd. to Nassau County, and they even got started on it in some sections, and renamed some streets in Queens under the Linden Blvd. moniker. But, they ran out of money, or there was local opposition, and the project died a death.
When you're in Laurelton, and you happen on Linden Blvd, some might think, is that the same Linden Blvd. that starts in Flatbush, Brooklyn? Yes and no. You certainly can't get from Laurelton to Flatbush using Linden Blvd. alone.
Kevin Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
That Linden Blvd. was thought of as a through route is not surprising. Including Fort Hamilton Parkway and the connector of Caton Avenue, this would have made a through highway from Fort Hamilton all the way to Nassau County.
My sources have some different names for streets taken over by Linden Blvd., mentioned in my other post. And I believe Linden Blvd still becomes Central Avenue on the Elmont side.
NYS Route 27 occupies much of Caton and Linden Blvd. It was a more important stretch before the Belt Parkway was built, no question.
Don't forget that the western leg of Linden Blvd from East Flatbush out to Conduit is a desingated ( and very busy) truck route since the Belt Pkwy is open to cars only.
It's still a a fairly important thru route today in cases when the Belt gets jammed up west of JFK Airport motorists will take cover by using Linden Blvd to Kings Highway or the Pennsylvania/Flatlands combo. My uncle used to do that a lot whenever he made the trip from Bay Ridge out to JFK or Aqueduct Racetrack.
Also I believe a stretch of Linden Blvd between the Canarsie Line and Conduit Drive was also supposed to be used as a route for the Cross Bklyn Expressway back in the 1960s.
I believe the Cross Brooklyn Expwy would have been somewhat south of Linden Blvd. See
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/cross-brooklyn/
I used to travel fairly regularly between Long Island and the V-N Bridge on weekends when the traffic could stop dead on the Belt, so often took Linden Blvd as an alternate.
Linden Blvd was a last resort because while the road itself could be OK, getting back to the Belt anyplace after Pennsylvania Avenue is a misery. I know Brooklyn well and have used just about every alternate you can imagine, but it is hard to avoid the heavy slow traffic west of Remsen Avenue, no matter what route you take.
And I've taken Utica Avenue, Kings Highway to Ocean Parkway or Bay Parkway, Avenue K, Caton Avenue, etc. etc. Even ended up on Bath Avenue through Bensonhurst.
Do you think the Cross Brooklyn Expressway, which would have been built on top of the old LIRR Bay Ridge freight line for the most part, would have been a good idea?
Brooklyn does not have a cross county expressway, unlike the Bronx, Queens and Staten Island.
If I remember right, it was supposed to connect with the end of the Prospect Expressway at Fort Hamilton Parkway. I don't konw how quickly it would have turned east, but if it was going to go all the way down to 62nd St. to meet up with the Bay Ridge branch, there would have been a lot of ticked-off people on Ocean Parkway.
No, actually it would meet it at Avenue H, which means that the Prospect, if the connection was to be made, would have to be extended down O.P.
Visit: Cross Brooklyn Expressway (I-695 and I-878, unbuilt)
[ Do we need a cross-Brooklyn Expressway? ]
That's a really tough question. From a planning point of view, there is an enormous transportation deficit from the south and west to NYC and LI. There's no limited access freight route south of the LIE and the Belt is both roundabout and a bottleneck for traffic.
So I think something needs to be done, but hacking a new expressway through the heart of southern Brooklyn (the X-Bklyn would have followed the Bay Ridge RR r-o-w) doesn't seem like the answer. Aside from tearing up neighborhoods it would become a prime route for NJ-New England traffic, perhaps attracting traffic that would otherwise bypass the City altogether and defeating its own purpose.
I would much prefer building Rudy's Narrows RR freight tunnel. For auto traffic, I would be willing to pay $$$ to take a LI to NJ car ferry which would bypass the City altogether--like the LI to CT ferries.
How about making the Belt wider at some points (4 lanes each direction instead of the current three). There are some spots where this could be done w/o property acquisition -- mostly in the South Eastern areas of Brooklyn and Western Queens. And they could designate one of those lanes in each direction as an HOV much like is done on the Gowanus and the LIE. That would ease some of the traffic problems.
Doug aka BMTman
But widening the Belt doesn't address another problem: once you pass Conduit Blvd. westbound (and no later than Pennsylvania Ave.) and coming off the V-N eastbound (and no later than Manhattan Beach) you're committed. If the Belt ties up, you're pretty much stuck with whatever happens--kind of like passing the last gas station before Death Valley.
Most roads, the knowledgeable driver has some kind of alternate in case of a bad tie-up.
Widening in places would create bottlenecks unless the whole highway is widened. That can be done, but in some places, it would replace tree lined slopes beside the highway with ugly, bare concrete walls.
Consider the lack of an elevated "Cross Brooklyn Expwy" a good thing.
Expressways do little that's positive for the imeadiate neighborhood. They may draw more traffic or other traffic away from
other highways. But the neighborhoods suffer especially when they are elevated or open cut - i.e. Cross Bronx Expwy.
The only way to build a non intrusive Expwy that would not negatively impact a neighborhood is to build it underground.
And in most cases - that's way too expensive.
The only way to do a cross-Brooklyn expressway and still leave neighhborhoods intact would be to build a tunnel for it; they are considering relocating the Gowanus Expressway in a tunnel. The cost to pull this off might be just too high, though. It's a shame because Mr. Moses drove a stake through the heart of Sunset Park when he rammed through the Gowanus. The neighborhood was never the same.
A depressed or elevated Cross Brooklyn Expressway would similarly depress Bensonhurst, Midwood, Flatbush and East New York. I'd hope that if plans are ever revived for a cross Brooklyn Expressway, they'd tunnel it through. I don't know the logistics of providing entrances and exits for such a tunnel.
Have any other cities relocated expressways in tunnels?
K.Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, that BIG DIG thing in Boston is going to do just that -- putting the current (soon to be former I-95) under the waterfront area of downtown Boston. I think they even have their very own website to keep the public abreast of the project.
Doug aka BMTman
Dumb Question Department:
If we can think of putting a huge expressway underground, and we could even consider putting other expressways underground, wouldn't it be cheaper to build the Narrows Rail Tunnel, which could pull out a lot of the truck traffic that makes these expensive roads necessary, and reap enormous economic and environmental benefits for the City?
[Dumb Question Department:
If we can think of putting a huge expressway underground, and we could even consider putting other expressways underground, wouldn't it be cheaper to build the Narrows Rail Tunnel, which could pull out a lot of the truck traffic that makes these expensive roads necessary, and reap enormous economic and environmental benefits for the City?]
I suspect that federal funds are more readily available for highway projects as opposed to rail tunnels.
True - plus, it might be the intelligent solution, and how often do those get adopted?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's I-93, it was SUPPOSED to be I-95, which was supposed to enter on the never built Southwest Expressway that was supposed to branch from the Southeast/Fitzgerald at Mass. Ave. and go to I-95 where it meets MA-128. I-93 was not supposed to proceed south of the Charlestown Interchange and I-95 was supposed to continue on, crossing the Tobin Bridge (US-1) and continue on a freeway (Northeast, I believe) to meet the other end at MA-128. Now they just have that half-assed solution that screws up the exit numbering on 128 and violates the Interstate numbering scheme.
Sorry for drifting off-topic, but everything seems to these days.
Thanks, Jack. I meant I-93. Nice post overall.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
Vine Street Expressway in Philadelphia is close in parts. It's relatively unobtrusive.
How about the short connector between the FDR and West Side under Battery Park. I always wondered how they fit that in there, what with the IRT and BMT also there.
Linden Boulevard turns into Central Avenue as it passes beneath the Cross Island Parkway and turns southward. It continues as Central Avenue until it reaches Sunrise Highway, where it turns into Mill Road, continuing south to Peninsula Boulevard.
Some of the streets on either side of Linden Boulevard in Elmont continue the Queens street numbering pattern, with names like 239th Street, 115th Terrace, 116th Avenue etc.
Linden Boulevard takes the location of 117th Avenue (Foch Boulevard occupies this slot further west). There IS one short strech of 117th Avenue near the VA hosiptal.
Wayne
Very interesting guys. It's also interesting to note that when traveling east from Flatbush Ave. Linden Blvd. doesn't get its highway "look" until the nightmarish intersection of Remsen Ave. and Kings Highway. At that point, Linden goes from a standard Ave. to a Grand Concourse styled design, with traffic islands separating the main drag from the service road.
Doug aka BMTman
That intersection(Linden/Remsen/Kings Hwy) is horrible. Sometimes I get stuck in the middle of this intersection and often run the red light because you never know..............
Yep. I can empathize.
BTW, for the uninitiated, Linden Blvd. is more of a residential street west of the Remsen/KingsHwy intersection that loses it's service roads and only has two lanes in either direction. It is difficult to navigate on most days from double parkers and trucks stopping and/or making deliveries.
But west of that intersection it has three lanes in both directions as well as the aforementioned service roads. At that point it is truly a Boulevard as it goes west to merge with Conduit Blvd. It is a pleasant drive along that section of Linden.
Doug aka BMTman
It is also dangerous. While on a B14 at Linden and Drew, a car took out a street light. Fortunately, no one was hurt. I also got into an accident merging from Linden to the Conduits. Kings Hwy is not a party neither......
Let's not forget that Linden is the only grade street with exit numbering!
According to all the maps, it turns into Central upon crossing the Southern State (that's where it turns south). Plus, there are signs on the Southern State for Linden Blvd., so it does go into that bit of Nassau.
The section of Linden Blvd. in the South Jamaica, St.Albans and Cambria Heights sections was originally called Central Avenue, according to atlases from the early 1900s. In fact the only other roads in the area then were Springfield Avenue (now Boulevard) and Old Country Road (now Hollis Avenue) and what became Merrick Boulevard and Merrick Road.
I've seen photos from that era in Seyfried's Queens book and brother, it was a different world then.
Kevin - your Forgotten NY site has a beautiful page on period cast-iron lamp posts. I remember Linden Boulevard (from Conduit Boulevard on west) as having the "Seventh Avenue" style lights. They were singletons on the service roads but were Seventh Avenue Twinlamps in the dividers, most with bell-shaped lamps, some with cuplights. Like the one at E 58th & East River. I wonder if anyone has photos of Linden Boulevard showing these. They vanished in the early 1960s.
Wayne (I like lamp posts and street lights too!)
Thanks for the kind words abt the site!
You sure Linden Blvd. had Seventh Avenue" type castirons? I'd have figured that it would have regulation size Twinlamps (as did the Grand Concourse and Queens Boulevard). I didn't see Linden Blvd. until the mid-70s by which time the modern alums were there.
Queens Boulevard kept its 'twinlamps' until late 1969--years after the modern aluminum poles went up elsewhere!
Bicycling down Rockaway Blvd in October 1975, I was amazed to see the small "Seventh Avenue" castirons in the vicinity of JFK. I'm told they were there until the early 1980s! That stretch of Rockaway Blvd. was a repository for lamps that were way past their prime. Only one of them, a long armed castiron, is still standing and that one's getting pretty rusty.
Kevin, I am positive of this. I distinctly remember seeing the "Seventh Avenue" lights on Linden Boulevard. They were rather short, probably the same height as used on side streets. And they were twin-headed in the dividers. For this I called them "Linden Lights" as a child and still do to this day. I asked my Mom about this and when I described them, she remembered having seen them as well.
The Traditional (Fifth Avenue) Twinlamps (I called them "Gunes" [a made-up word] as a child, for no particular reason): I remember seeing them on Francis Lewis Boulevard, from north end all the way to Springfield (with Corvington companions at curbside and on corners); also on stretches of Foster Avenue and Avenue "D" in Canarsie (east of Ralph Avenue), and also on Woodhaven and Cross Bay Boulevards. I am sure there were other places too. Queens Boulevard (you mentioned this) - a great place to re-install new ones like they did on Central Park West! BTW - the new Twins on CPW look GREAT! They are All Cast Iron, with every curlie cue and filigree in place, Mission Bell lights on their fanciful arms.
Thanks,
Wayne
I wonder at what point "Frankie Lew" became the 8-lane (?) boulevard it is today. I have a picture from the Thirties of Cross Island Boulevard and it's a regular two lane avenue with a double stripe divider.
Clintonville Street was the original path of Cross Island (now Francis Lewis) Boulevard. I believe that when the Cross Island Parkway was built by Mr. Moses, the leg of 'Frankie Lew' above its intersection with Clintonville was constructed to provide a more direct route.
'Frankie Lew' takes an even more unusual path than Linden Boulevard does. It proceeds in a general NW-SE route, but in St Albans, it jogs to the SW, then SE again, commandeering the routes of 121st Avenue and 138th Avenue until stopping a t Hook Creek Boulevard.
This can't be the original route; the leg SE of Springfield Blvd. may be an extension from the 1930s.
I STAND CORRECTED. I must have gotten my parkways mixed up. Of course Linden Boulevard crosses Elmont Road (at Tudor Square) and continues east for about a quarter mile or so.
Wayne (formerly of 160 Meacham Avenue, ELMONT, NY 11003)
A track worker was doing some work around 100th St. Unsure if it was 7th Ave or Lex Ave IRT. He entered a door through the wall, desended down a flight of stairs and found another subway tunnel! Any info?
Also, any info on subway tunnel running along Bedford Ave. and crossing under the G-Line at the Bedford-Nostrand Station? It also was discovered by a transit track worker in 1965.
A track worker was doing some work around 100th St. Unsure if it was 7th Ave or Lex Ave IRT. He entered a door through the wall, desended down a flight of stairs and found another subway tunnel! Any info?
If it was the Lex, he "discovered" the express tracks. If it was the 7th Ave., he found the 2/3 line tracks which diverge north of 96th St.
As for your other finds, take a look at Brennan's Guide to Disused Subway Stations. These things you've posted about aren't exactly secret, but mostly consist of station shells built as future provisions for lines not built. It's unlikely any large stretches of tunnel were secretly built in the area you refer to and then forgotten.
The Pitkin subway you refer to is documented on the track maps. Four trackways were constructed eastward from Euclid past the Pitkin yard turnouts for possible further subway. The decision was made to tie into the existing Fulton El instead. See http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/pitkin.gif
There's an article in today's (Wednesday's) paper that says the city's new cars are a disaster, implying the R-142 order by Kawasaki and Bombardier. But the story itself deals more with the fact the R-110s are out of service a lot, and (has been mentioned here many times) some of the trains have been canablized for parts.
As much as I would like to see the Redbirds last as long as possible (at least to the IRTs 100th anniversary), it sounds like the Post is comparing apples to oranges here and just trying to stir up a controversy about the as yet undelivered trains.
More like comparing Crab Apples to Red Delicious. The R110s were, as noted previously, 'guinea pig' cars, test which technologies would work, not work, and be in any way feasable on new car orders.
-Hank
In the NY Post Wednesday July 21, page 8, is an article about the new R110A and the R110B subway cars. These trains are such lemons that they have been sidetracked all year.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the article, your thoughts on these lemons are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The people at the NY Post will post anything as a story. The point of the R-110 A & B were not to provide the best service. They were manufactured to see what technologies would provide best, to see what problems, gliches and so on would come up so that the TA would know how to fix the problems when the mass production cars arrive and to see what passengers do and do no like.
The R-110 A & B are PROTOTYPES and they have served will as prototypes.
And the R-110A was not sidetracked, it just wasn't in passenger service. They were doing more tests.
Damn I hate the NY Post!
I heard that one set of the R110B cought fire in I theing 207st Yard. There three car were a total lost. I have seen 6 R110b in Coney Island yard and running on the B line not in service. Can anyone let me know if this is right.
I heard that one set of the R110B cought fire in 207st Yard. There three car were a total lost. I have seen 6 R110b in Coney Island yard and running on the B line not in service. Can anyone let me know if this is right.
That's probably why the three cars are being stripped for parts at C.I. YARD.
The R110A and B were designed to test new technology, not provide reliable service. If they do the job and assist with the development of the R142 and 143, then they were completely successful in their mission. These trains served the same purpose as the X-series of airplanes built by the Air force. Most of those were successful in knowledge gained to make other planes.
(Just a test) However, the newspapers reported problems with the R142/142 order some time ago. Anyone hear how that is doing?
Well, the Post made the biggest deal out of the cars running off the end of the track at the plant. Of course, the News and the Times noted up-front that it was operator error. The Post barely mentioned it. And since the R143 deliveries have been delayed, I'd say they are working out the noted wiring bugs.
-Hank
Could someone please tell me how old the Redbirds currently in service are? Am I mistaken in thinking that they were installed new in the late fifties? Thanks, Salvatore.
No they enterd in the late fifties early sixties and they are in amzingly good condition
Mechanically yes, but structurally no. Rust is slowly eating them away.
TO WIT: #7884-7885 - there is a HUGE bubble of rust eating away at the red paint on #7884's side, near the #1 end doors. If they don't get some bondo on him SOON, he's a goner.
Wayne
It's a shame they can't replace body panels on the Redbirds. They would thrive in Denver's climate. There are automobiles from the 60s out here which still look brand new; body rot is almost unheard of. Cracked windshields, well, that's another story.
I've seen pictures of an R-16 that was somehow remade with a stainless steel body in an experimental rebuild. But that wasn't pursued. (I wonder why? Too costly?) It would be nice if they do that to the R-36's, which would then be even closer to their cousin R-32's.
Yes we saw this at 207th Street Shoppe in 1980. It was #6429. She was all decked out in shiny silver, and inside she looked like an R44 except the seats were against the car walls. She had a big blue "A" sign on her #1 end, like today's R42 signs. A strange sight indeed.
IIRC I believe they left the storm door windows round.
Wayne
Sounds like it would have looked like a cross between an R-44 and an R-11 (with the round storm door windows), especially if the doors were painted blue to match the R-34 rebuild.
Come to think of it, it DID remind me of the R11 on the outside - except the stainless steel jacket she wore was basically smooth, except for the usual belts below the side windows. The storm doors at the ends appeared new (like MKCo did later to the R32s), except the windows were round as they always were. I'd never seen the R44-style buckets arranged longitudinally (the R62s were still five years away).
The straps were replaced with R44-style curved bars. There were modified paneled partitions beside the doors, like the R44. There was even ersatz paneling at the ends, and the NY logo "wallpaper" on the interior walls. Lighting was also similar to R44 - a single row of fixtures down the centre of the ceiling, with backlit advertising panels at the corners. The ceilings at the ends were also dropped to accomodate A/C units. I wonder what ever happened to this prototype.
Wayne
I can see now that money probably was the reason they didn't go with this. It must have costed as much as building a new car. They also had an R-10 with R-42 ends that was similarly redone on the inside.
According to New York City Subway Cars, 6429 was scrapped when all was said and done. IMHO, it would have been more of a hassle to try to rebuild an R-16 from the wheels on up, given the notoriety of that fleet, than to just replace it.
The same thing happened to the R-10 which took on an R-42 appearance. At least it would have been able to run in a train of R-42s. Poor old 1575 couldn't run with other R-10s.
But it could MU with over 1500 R-1 to R-9s, and despite the body makeover, it still looked like an IND car - same door spacing and window spacing from the side. The R-32s started the real changes.
...with a special note to the R-30s, which began the 10-year period of IRT-like side facing-only seats that was copied by the R-32 through the R-42.
The oldest Redbirds are the R-26s, which entered service in 1958. Their arrival signalled the beginning of the end for the Lo-Vs. They were also the first cars to come in married pairs, although they were originally joined by couplers at the blind ends. So were the R-28s. During GOH, they received link bars.
Redbirds in service
110 R-26 built 1959-60 by ACF
100 R-28 built 1960-61 by ACF
236 R-29 built 1962 by St Louis
540 R-33 built 1962-63 by St Louis
424 R-36 built 1963-64 by St Louis
1410 total
Virtually all these cars are still in service. The following have been scrapped.
R-33 8968,8969,8884,
9114,9131,9213,9224
Some other R-33's are o/s as a result of that derailment in the 239 St Yard.
Wayne reports that 8885 is now a "GEL Applicator Car",whatever that is.
Please note that the R-26 and R-28 were originally painted olive green and did not become Redbirds until after the GOH.
Please not that R-33 9306-9345 and R-36 9346-9523 and 9558-9769 are the one with the picture windows and were originally called "Bluebirds". One of these R-33 9306 is still in the Blue and White paint scheme at the Transit Museum.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[ Wayne reports that 8885 is now a "GEL Applicator Car",whatever that
is. ]
The gel is a gelatinous de-icing fluid applied to the third rail during cold/wet weather.
Steve: In the old days we used to call those alcohol cars. Thanks for the info.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, she was spotted sunning her yellow-and-black coat this afternoon at the north end of the 180th Street yard, a paper placard affixed to her blind end storm window reading "GEL CAR".
Wayne
The o/s R33s as a result of the Wakefield Yard Lead rear-end collision, derailment and ensuing fire are:
#9152-9153, badly damaged by fire
#8980-8981, damaged during the derailment- #8981 struck R62 #1400
We saw the full complement of the Bronx IRT Redbirds today, they were out in full force on the #2, #5, and #6 lines. The Unionport Yard was empty, and there were about five trains parked at the 180th Street Shoppe. There were also several instances of "swapping" between the #2 and #5, where R33s were running as #5 and R26/R28/8700-series R29 were running as #2.
Wayne
When will the dual mode lirr locomotives enter service.
"The summer of 1998"
With all the talk about the planning of a train shuttle to JFK and a simmilar idea a Newark international which would connect to the NEC. I was just wondering will these system be fully automated or will they have crews on board? In most airport systems the trains or trams are fully automated (eg. Atlanta, Orlando, Dallas/Forth Worth, etc.). Also would the Idea of fully automating such a system at JFK, create union problems (btw. who is going to operate the JFK train?) Also are there any fully automated rail systems in New York at all? I can't think of any.
The Newark Airport peoplemover is an automated system. There are "customer service agents" on the platforms, but no operators in the trains. This is the system that will be extended to meet the NEC in the Newark area.
The JFK system, at least the first piece, will be driver-less. The run up the Van Wyke may be another matter.
Who's system ...it's Port Auth (airline passenger) money, but compatible with TA (track guage), so maybe some day it might get intergrated with the subway system or LIRR at Jamaica.
Mr t__:^)
[ The JFK system, ... compatible with TA (track guage), so maybe some day it might get intergrated with the subway system or LIRR at Jamaica. ]
That's certainly an intriguing idea. From what I understand, and from looking at the photos on the Bombardier website, the AirTrain will have a strip of magnets running down the middle of the track, and will use 750v DC current. How difficult would this make it for existing NYCTA rolling stock to run on the line? Is there enough clearance under the motors, etc. on existing NYCTA cars for that magnet strip? And if there is, might the magnets have an adverse effect on the traditional motors?
Linear-induction drive systems (such as the AirTrain) typcially use laminated aluminum/iron plates between the rails. The electromagnets that form the active portion of the LIM drive are carried on the underside of the train cars. Magnetic interference from the reaction rail should not be an issue.
The reaction rail is generally mounted at or below the level of the rails. Their should be enough space for under-car equipment to clear the reaction rail.
However, existing stock would be unable to run on this line due to the voltage difference. 750vdc fed to electrical equipment designed to handle 600vdc will yield rather 'illuminating' results. This does not even take into account the loading guage, and the fact that the power rail may be mounted further from the running rails than on the NYCTA's lines.
CH
None of this is that important. The important thing is structural capacity, grades, clearance and curves.
[However, existing stock would be unable to run on this line due to the voltage difference. 750vdc ... loading guage, and (3rd) rail ... mount(ing) ... (vs.) ... NYCTA's lines.]
From what I've read the Port Auth. doesn't want to run this RxR for ever and the TA does/would. The Port Auth. had the money and WILL to do it. We'll have to hope that light rail & 3rd rail placement are minor obsticles. My crystal ball sees the Port Auth turning over the line to Jamaica before the initial round the airport line.
Mr t__:^)
And I'm sure the structures will be lightly constructed (hence, light rail), so subway and railroad cars would be too heavy. They would have to make new cars probably out of aluminum to be safe for the subway, yet light enough for the airport (just like on the old Brooklyn els), plus be able to switch to different voltages, loading guages and power rail configurations.
I didn't know they had/would have this, but apparently, LIRR #4065, is a new bilevel with a bar in the front, and a luggage area in the middle.
The bar area takes up the space in the front of the car (the Front is usually west on the LIRR) where the eight seats in front of the doors usually are. (i.e. between the doors, and the conductor's areas at the end of the car).
The luggage area is in the center of the lower level, and replaces 4 seats (or 8 if it is on both sides), and provides a relatively large area for storing luggage, with a "shelf" half-way up made from stainless steel round pipes.
This might be as close to a "parlor" car as we'll see..
A bar! Pooh! Thanks for posting the unit number, remind me to stay away from it if it's in my train.
Wayne
[ A bar! Pooh! Thanks for posting the unit number, remind me to stay
away from it if it's in my train. ]
Why don't you like Bar cars?
Anyways, I saw another one last night, on train #568 (leaves Jamaica at 7:57 [says schedule, actual departure was 8:18]).
I was on this train, so I got to take a better look at it. Looking at the floor, it actually looks like this might have been a retrofit job, as you can see where the seats were, and the "dirt patterns" indicate that there were seats there for some period of time (may have never been for service, though). The bar itself, when standing behind it has lockable storage below the counter, and to the right, there's a compartment, about 1 ft square by 3 ft deep with a door on top. It looks like it is designed for ice, I guess.
It also looks like there is an A/C outlet that has been added in, with some surface conduit (that beige square stuff).
This unit was #4055, and also had the same luggage area (on the north side only, lower level, I add) that was on #4065.
That's not a bar car!!! That'sa a DD with a bar in it - the M-2s on the new haven line, THOSE are bar cars - nothing but a big bar, a few seats at the end, cupholders, and lots of plastered commuters :/ Oddly - they have cabs in them - but I've never seen one at the head end. The consuctors uses them. AFIK, they have control stands and all. I'm thinking here - are they not used at the head end due to some weird FRA requirement?
Since so many postings are NYCTA employees kvetching about the TA, managers, the union, union leaders, etc., maybe we should have a SubLaborTalk board for all these postings, a forum for such b*tching so that threads about non-labor topics don't degenerate into another endless round of "TA managers suck" and/or "TWU sucks," and people to whom this is all irrelevant and Byzantine politics don't have to read about it.
Just a thought.
Excellent idea.
I see two different issues here (I've said some of this before):
1. "NYCTA employees (postings) ... about the TA, managers, the
union, union leaders, etc.," and other job related issues.
I think a good debate is healthy for both sides. Bring up the issues, toss them around, have a civil/thoughtful discussion about them ... maybe both sides will get some insite and understanding they didn't have before. N-O-W don't get me wrong, this should NOT be the primary focus of this site. It does appear that supervision doesn't talk or listen to the operators. That's very bad, but to say it's all the fault of upper mngt preoccupation with saving money is a copout.
2. "a forum for such b*tching so that threads about non-labor topics don't degenerate into another endless round of "TA managers suck" and/or "TWU sucks"
This type of discussion (by either side) diffinitely doesn't belong here ! To those that ingage in such bitching & flaming you need to understand that nobody takes you seriously when you do that. So if your sick and tired and can't stand it anymore ... it may make YOU feel better, but won't help period. So count to ten, re-phrase your thoughts because that's the only way there is any hope that someone will listen. As I've also said before ... just because the phone rings doesn't mean you have to answer it. Once I see where the thread is going I DON'T read it anymore !
This said I'll make one final point: This employee is willing to try and make the system better. I try in small ways because I'm only the tail on the dog, but I'ld rather try them bitch about it all the time. This site has turned me into much more of a buff then I was a year ago. That was & still is it's primary SERVICE (thanks to Dave). But along the way I've leared a lot that has helped me on my job (thanks again to Dave), and has heightened my interest doing my best every day.
Mr t__:^)
Why can't this be brought up at you're union meetings instead of here ? after all...thats one of the reasons for union meetings...right ?
Karl, You need to seperate the griping about the "union" and their leadership from the griping about the insentitive/uncareing supervision and stupid work rules that prevent Conductors/Operators & Station Agents from providing SERVICE to the public.
Or at least I see a difference .....
BTW, ever try to stand up in a union meeting a complain ? My best experience as a Teamster was when the good old boys were running for re-election & had a nomanation meeting on a Sunday morning. Boy were thery surprised to see me & a few friends show up. They were even more surprised when I stood up to state what a good job I thought a couple of the "Trustees" were doing (they were doing a pritty good job, but we few just were curious what they planned to bring up at such a odd time). I wasn't offered a career in the Teamsters probally because I use to ask why a lot, but I was a good shop steward just the same, i.e. I got involved in union and company business.
Mr t__:^)
"I think a good debate is healthy for both sides. Bring up the issues, toss them around, have a civil/thoughtful discussion about them ... maybe both sides will get some insite and understanding they didn't have before."
I don't disagree at all. I just think that such forum should be separate from the SubTalk board in the same way, and for exactly the same reasons, as BusTalk exists. I admit that I was a but harsh in my characterizations, but a separate forum for labor discussions would be to the benefit of both the people who want to read these messages AND the people who don't.
Windy City John, I didn't read you comments as negitive ... more along the lines that I advicate, but then we've come to expect proper decorum from you, especially knowing your profession.
You, Larry, Peter and few others seem to like a good debate & I enjoy reading those posts.
Mr t__:^)
I've learned a lot from this site over the years. Transit is a big subject, but I'm not sure its SO big we need separate discussions of different parts of it. Track talk? Car talk? Signal talk? I just use the titles to read whatever appears to interest me most. I'm happy to be provided with one discussion page, let alone four.
Well said, Larry. I for one am generally interested in the whole enchilada--signal aspects, management-labor brouhaha, peculiarities of individual station decorations etc. I can however always skip something, BUT having it there is better than having someone else do the editing. Of course the discussion should remain civil, AND as always a large thank you to the host--I appreciate this site!
My two cents-- I think a *Talk for transit employees, mgmt, union members, etc. is a great idea. IMHO there are a lot of issues internal to Transit that are not of great interest to laypeople OR are not something that laypeople need to be involved in. That being said I hope someone does start up a union issues *Talk (it won't be me). There are a number of free web board hosting services out there.
-dave
A platform supervisor this morning told me that the rush-hour delay of yesterday morning of the A was caused by a stray pooch casually roaming the tracks between Euclid Ave. and Broadway-East New York. He told me it is rare -- but not unheard of -- for heartless folks to dump their dogs on the tracks and not think twice about it.
Sad but true.
Doug aka BMTman
I once was shocked to see a stray dog actually walk off a J train at Forest Pkwy back in 1993. How she got on is a complete mystery. I brought her home, fed her, cleaned her, and showed her some much-needed TLC. Unfortunatley she had a nueroligical problem which caused seizures, virtually assuring that she'd never get adopted. So I kept her and she lived happily and healthy for about 3 years before I had to have her euthanized in 1996.
I remember many years ago when I saw a dog on the 7th Ave tracks at Columbus Circle. Unfortunately, I guess the dog was deafed or even deafened by the roar of the trains, it jumped in front of an express train. The motorman didn't see it at all.
A few years ago, while operating an M train between Central Ave. and Knickerbocker Ave., there was a dog on the tracks ahead of me. Between the running rails no less. I was afraid that he would fall thru the ties onto Myrtle Ave. I blew the horn and "chased" him to the thru span at the south end of Knickerbocker Ave. There happened to be a cop on the platform who tried to get the pooch up. But it was tired and scared, not to mention dirty. There also happened to be a dog lover female passenger on the train who happened to be getting off there who also just so happened to have just been in a pet store and who bought a new leash for her dog at home. So she gave the leash to the cop who put it on the dogs collar and the dog obediently climbed up the ladder onto the platform. The woman took the dog home. That was one lucky dog! I often wondered what ever happened to the dog.
Nice story Bill It's good to hear about people who care, you the cop and the rider included. IT makes the world a nicer place
A couple of weeks a stray dog was on the L tracks, causing a shutdown between 8Av and Bway Junction............. It was a Saturday.
Having poured through old subway routes and reading as much as could on route changes and alterations over the past few decades, I believe I have come up with something concerning the Independent Subway System that existed before unification came in the 60's. It seems to me that during the 1940'sa and 1950's when the Independent Subway System operated as a distinct unit, the whole system was underground. That is, except Smith & 9th Street for the GG Line and that station plus 4th Avenue for the "F" Train. Is this so? There must be some whiz out there that might supply an answer. I'd appreciate some help on this.
There are a few others. The '39 worlds fair had a branch from Queens Blvd to the fair, through the yard and up where the van wyck is now.
Also, the Culver and Lefferts branches opened up to the IND sometime in the 50s. Check the pages here for the dates.
In fact, when they connected the Culver line into the IND system, the TA had to install windshield wipers on the R units, as they had never had them before!
Elevateds became the main target of the IND when it was being built during the 30's. The Concourse line was built to drive customers away from the Jerome Ave. IRT (thankfully it didn't work), the 8th Ave and 6th Ave. trunks were designed to knock the 9th and 6th Ave. els out of existance, and the Fulton St. line was built directly under a BMT el. I don't think there is a single el left that was constructed after 1920.
However, the IND Second System had many new elevated lines in its plans. They probably would have never been built, even if other parts of the Second System were ever constructed.
Fred: Your right. Outside of the short-lived World's Fair Railroad the only place the IND saw the light of day was the elevated section of the Smith Street Line between Smith-9 Sts and 4 Avenue. It wasn't until the middle fifties when they took over the Culver and Fulton St Lines of the BMT and the Rockaway Line of the IND that they got some above ground running.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Unification actually occurred on June 1st, 1940, when NYC took over the assets of the privately run BMT and IND. Your mention of the 50s or 60s may have been a reference to the "BMT/IND" route unification that occurred with the Chrystie St connection in 1968 and the IND connection to the Culver Line in 1954.
The IND South Brooklyn Line (also known as the IND Smith St Line) was supposed to have a tunnel under the Gowanus Canal. As negotiations between Hylan and the Transit Commission went into the 1920s, the tunnel plan was changed to a bridge with a Smith/9th St station over the Gowanus Canal, and the provision for a 4 track line under Fulton Street to Rockaway Avenue. The change from bridge to tunnel was done for economic reasons. Since 99% of the system was underground (except for yards), no one ever thought to equip the R1/9s with windshield wipers.
The IND was originally built to directly compete with the "traction interests" and siphon customers from them. As previous posters have indicated, lines were placed within short walking distances of (or directly UNDER) existing BMT or IRT elevated lines. Had the system been designed and built to attract new customers from the start, perhaps Queens would have much more service coverage than it has today and Staten Island would have seen transit service dating back to the 1930s.
In September of 1922, Mayor John F. Hylan came out with his own proposal even though the Transit Commission came out with one of their own earlier in that same year. One of Hylan's proposals included a line from 125th St and the Hudson River, across 125th St, across a new East River Bridge to Queens, connecting to the BMT Astoria Line. Another of his proposals was a First Avenue line as well as a 4 track line down Flatbush Ave to Floyd Bennett Field! Yet another was a line to Staten Island.
A capsule history and chronology of the Independent Subway is coming to the NYC Subway Line by Line pages soon. So if you have any interesting tidbits you'd like to share regarding the IND, please pass them on!
--Mark
Fellow Subtalkers,
I have enjoyed posting responses and threads on Subtalk in the past. Some of you totally disagree with my responses while others may enjoy them.
I decided not to post any more messages in the future which is properly the politically correct thing for me to.
Politically correct? Spare me! I don't take offense at your comments - rather I appreciate your willingness to call things as you see them. We may not all share the same perspective, but I would hope that everyone would respect everyone's right to their opinions. Your input, like that of all but a few pranksters, is valuable and I hope you will remain.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I must disagree with you now! There is nothing worse than someone deciding to leave because of political correctness. Your contributions here are very valuable. The PC police need to be placed in a school bus with no brakes (basically any school bus) and driven into the Grand Canyon
Besides, Dave, you still haven't answered my control line question.
Why do all the subway motormen (and women) wear something that looks like goggle-type glasses?
What are the goggles for?
[ Why do all the subway motormen (and women) wear something that looks
like goggle-type glasses?
What are the goggles for? ]
The same thing they're used for in any other application. To protect the eyes of the person wearing them.
All train related personel on all transit systems when working near the tracks wear goggles.....or more acurately safety glasses (just like the ones you find in your local high school chem. lab). The main reason is that when you stick you head out of a moving train it's not good idea to not protect your eyes (ie. bugs, dirt, stuff being kicked by passing train, etc.). This hold true especially for conductors and engineers (or motormen), who have to stick their heads out to check on the doors when arriving or departing a station.
Only Conductors wear Goggles because there are people who like to spit and throw objects at them when they observe the Platform. Motorman do NOT WEAR Goggles.
I've seen motorme wearing goggles. On ever tranist system.
If my memory is right, is it true that after R30s were scratched, their spare parts are used for rebuilding some of the R36s?
If this is true, the spare parts of R30s give R36s new life. No wonder the #7 trains have a low breakdown rate.
Chaohwa
That's correct. The R-30s became organ donors, so to speak. Their controllers were transplanted into the WF R-36s.
Where can I find this book? Is is on this site? I would love to see all the unused tracks in the system.......
You can find out about Pete's book at
http://www.quuxuum.org/pjd/trk-book.html
I highly recommend the book. I turned me into an instant transit expert at the Department of City Planning. Believe it or not, only one person in the agency actually knew where all the tracks were, and he has left for another job.
Hi; Just checking to see if the train-to-train transfer is still in effect. When I entered at Marcy Ave. and exited at Lorimer St. my unlimited showed "just used" at Lorimer St. and at B'way/ Union Ave. How come? These two stations should really accept all transfers from anywhere,except usage at one of them and then trying the other. Am I correct in this assumption?
The transfer is still in effect, but only works for pay per ride cards. Unlimited ride cards are (in theory) just that--with one you can transfer anywhere anytime. What you ran into is the lockout that prevents one person from letting in the western world with one card. The problem is that the current software couldnt distinguish between subway stations for that purpose, so it locks them all out for up to 12-18 minutes. Since you did a relatively short trip, that would explain that. This software is supposed to be upgraded soon to correct this system wide, but I'm not sure what the status of that is. Also, in theory, the free transfer for pay per ride cards should have overriden the lockout too, but because rail-to-rail transfers are the exception and sort of a patch on the system (unlike bus to rail transfers) there maybe software reasons why it didnt.
Will the R68 or R32 operate on the Shuttle when it reopens?
Two-car trains of R-68s will operate on the shuttle when it reopens, which should be Labor Day weekend. The platforms are now 170' long, 20' longer than the two cars. Nine R-68s will not be put into four-car sets; last I heard, the cars selected were 2715-2724, but this may have changed.
David
I think it has - they are rearranging all the R68s into four-car, consecutively-numbered sets (some of the high 2800s and 2900s have been done, as well as some 2500s) - so I think they will use the 2915-2924 range.
Wayne
Labor Day weekend for the Franklin Shuttle's reopening? I had thought it wasn't going to be until the end of the year ...
According to all reports they are considerably ahead of schedule - will wonders never cease!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow, perhaps the MTA WILL be able to construct a 2nd Ave. line in my lifetime.
Or at least fix the Manhattan Bridge once and for all.
Man, I want some of whatever you've been smokin' - must be powerful stuff;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's about as likely as Hylan's proposal for a First Avenue (Manhattan) subway .....
--Mark
Saw a story on NY1 that the work is well ahead of schedule and will open in September. I'm anxious to see what's been done. The last time I rode that train was in 1988, when it was serviced by graffiti-covered R30's.
Wow!!! I thought it was supposed to be around the holidays... Well I do not think Ill make it to the grand reopening. I will just have to wait until Dec. The Willy B is supposed to be ahead of schedule as well. The TA works wonders!! Hopefully the 63St connector will be done ahead of schedule..........
All of these high-profile ahead of schedule construction projects bode well for an eventual 2nd Ave. line. I hope C Virginia Fields continues to fight for it.
Well, this past weekend I had to drive up to San Francisco, and thatmeant using I-5. That goes right past where I found the two R-27/30 cars in Glendale a few weeks back, across the LA River from the freeway.
I went down every dead-end street in the area trying to get close to the subway cars; unfortunately, it was impossible to do so, as they are behind the buildings of the Barwick Independent Studio Corporation, and the place was closed up except for their guard shack, occupied by a not-so-nice rent-a-cop. I decided it would be better left alone than to try and reason with this humanoid to maybe go to the back of the property and photograph the cars.
All is not lost -- there IS a service roadway on the bank of the river, and one of these days I will go up there again (it is only 32 miles from home in Tustin) and find a way to access that river service road and walk the half mile from the nearest place I can park legally. The cars appear to be easily-photographable from the river service road.
Maybe there left over from Pelham 123 or the French Connection.
No, Pelham 1-2-3 was filmed in New York, on the IRT (and Court Street), with R-21/22's.
The French Connection was also filmed in New York on the West End BMT with R-40's.
As I mentioned, the cars are R-27/30's.
The cars in The French Connection are R-42s, specifically 4572 and 4573. R-32s can also be seen, and, in the shuttle sequence, R-17s, including the Transit Museum's own 6609.
Maybe from Money Train......... Were these cars in their original paint or painted red?
The cars in question in Glendale, California appear tobe painted in the MTA silver/blue but are heavily grafittied. The MTA paint shows on the ends of the roofs.
I believe all the cars inMoney Train and Die Hard 3 were in the red/black/silver scheme.
As the cars are behind a studio, they could have been repainted for another shooting that we don't know about yet.
What about commercials? I have seen a lot of different ones. One was for a cellular phone which touted one-hand operation, the train jerked after restarted and everybody dialing with both hands fell down. I would say that the inside looked liked the R-27/30 cars that I remembered.
I know what I'm going to post is going to raise some discussion. I've been following the on going debate on the issue of bar cars on the MTAs commuter railroads. The driving issue is the question of is this promoting drunk driving? In my personaly opinion this idea of bar cars isn't smart (from the drunk driving standpoint), but from a hard working person point of view I wish that buses had bar cars on them too after a hard day at work (I work at an airport in the customer service postion). So I'm sorta on the fence but I would lean to the removal of bar cars from the MTAs commuter fleet (I'm going to hear it now). NJ Transit never has bar cars (as I know, I'm most likely wrong) and I don't see commuter clawing the walls. Well that's my 2 cents. What's everyone elses opinion?
At one time there was a chartered or private car, the North Jersey Coast Commuter's Club, that made one round trip a day on the Coast Line into Penn Station. It may still be in service, I don't know - I happened to be on the same train about three years back, so that's the last time I can vouch for it. I believe that it has a privately stocked bar. It is not, however, open to the general public - only to the members of the club on their daily commute.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Note - I'm only moving this thread up because my browser likes to crash on this site if I don't stop loading around 200k, and this was still active as of the other day and I was posting to it - Dave, I KNOW this is WAY off topic - though it does lightly touch on subways..
Someone wrote:
>Also, is a B-52 pressurized? To the same degree as a passenger jet?
>That is where much of the stress on the fuselage is from.
This I'm not sure of, it may not be, though I suspect it is at least slightly.
>On the subject of vibrations...I am fascinated by watching the wings
>on a jetliner vibrate in the wind. Always surprises
>me how much those things move. That must eventually fatigue the
>structure, I would think?
Stress breaks parts - not movement. By knowing the maximum stresses on the part in question, the normal stresses, and the material properties - it's possible to determine how many load / unload cycles the part can take before breaking.
Steve - maybe you can answer this - how much body flex is there to a subway car body? Is it significant to cause problems? I've heard the R-32s had cracks forming in them, but I don't know much more about it beyond that. Also - is there any reason why the T/A uses stainless steel, instead of say, aluminum? I believe quite a number of other cities use Al car bodies because they are lighter.
Also realize that the U-2 was cutting edge technology when it was new, and is still one of the few planes that can go that high.
The old fish bowl buses had a lot of flex to them If you saw one from the top on an uneven street you could see the front and the rear of the bus twisiting from side to side sometimes in oposite directions
The early rts buses were very ridgid and they experienced some cracks in the rear bulkhead area that did not happen on new looks to the same degree or as soon.
Is stress as big of a factor in rail cars since the rail is smoother than nyc streets?
For the past two days, I took the E train to/from World Trade
Center, and I was surprised that about 5 to 8 trains on the E were
made up of R-46s. What's going on? I remeber last Summer, the E and
R exchanged many subway cars for the Summer, and switched tham back
in the Fall. I'm wondering if the E and R lines are switcheing cars
temporary for the Summer again?
James S. Li
I posted a similiar question last week. The R46 E trains are coming off the F line to make up for a shortage of R32's transferred to the A line. They are not coming off the R line.
I ask this question before, but recieved no answer so I am going to ask again. How there are timers between Hoyt and Nevins on the 2,3? They were never there before. It was a straight run into Nevins from Hoyt.
Maybe that nasty little 50-degree curve has something to do with it, although it has been there since 1908...perhaps they're getting a little safety-conscious about it. It does come up rather abruptly, as do quite a few other curves on the #2/#3 (i.e. w. of Park Place, n. of Fulton, s. of Wall, e. of Clark)
Wayne
I guess. I always remember the local flying into Nevins while the express slowly crawl around that curve. Its a shame. Before you know it, the system will be full of GTs.................
the system will be full of GTs.................
You've said it!!
They are poping up all over the place. I mean I know there was a derail leaving Dekalb on the D towards Coney, we now have two GT's coming into the station. At least that one has a reason... well sort of.
s/b from Hoyt St to Nevins ST 10 mph entering the station i think there is or are a couple in advance. ON the express track from Boro Hall to Nevins St i think the first GT is 30 mph the second 20 MPH then a 10 mph before and entering the station.
That is a prudent speed in light of the severity (turning radius) of that curve, especially on the southbound side.
Wayne
that doesnt make any sense. trains have rumbled through that curve for years with no accidents. The MTA should try putting in new signal systems to the trains can run faster.
Sure they have! Ditto for Clark Street S/B and Fulton Street S/B. And if you don't know it's there and you're standing and not hanging onto a pole or a strap, you go flying! I've seen it happen. It's a thrill (from my perspective) to go whipping around a curve at 25 MPH but for the rider who takes a spill it's no fun at all. As for the current placement of the S/B GT, it's probably a result of the overall trend towards "better safe than sorry". That is both a blessing and a curse.
Have you noticed how they crawl out of Chambers Street before taking that hard left into Park Place? I can remember that speed restriction being there for as long as I've been riding that line.
Wayne
from a safety perspective what would it mean to have an 80,000 pounds per car and 800,000lbs for the consist not including loaded with passengers fly around a tight curve? for most part passenger comfort is oout the window quite literally not to mention if you're the body getting slammed into a subway car wall. now suppose a subway car tilts a little more than it should and the car body scrapes along the tunnel wall, plenty of tunnels are barely inches from subway car roofs. There are lotsa curves where the posted speed is too slow for the area but train operators push the envelope when it comes to rounding those curves. From what i understand the GT's entering Grand Central on the Lex line where put there thanks to a new female train operator who had the train wrapped around entering the station. plenty of people were thrown around that train and once the train came to a stop she was yanked out of the cab by the passengers. from there I have know idea what happened to her discpline wise but thanks to knuckle heads like that our jobs are harder.
Common sense man is all theres to it wrapping the controller around and flying out of a station a five year old kid could do that. A Motorman would have had more sense than to do that, getting to your terminal ahead of time is ancient history with the equipment we have now not to mention the GTs out there.
If you want faster trains you'll have to take that up with the designers of the subway system from the early 1800/1900 all the curves in the systems make it impossible to move any faster except for on the straight alignments. Lexington ave is great north of 42nd st but once you come through GCT your ontop of your leader and your follower is riding your butt from 59... hmm the gap fillers at Union Sq tie up things pretty well too..
Just obtained the 3rd of the three new MCs that the Subway-Buff posted on June 24th, i.e. EABank; ABC News; and Snapple.
Would still appreciate someone letting us know if the ABC card is just one new card this time (was two cards previously).
Also obtained a "Dial 101-6868" card.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, I just picked up one of those "101-6868" MetroCards. It's an advertisement for a popular calling card "PT1" that's available at newstands and grocery stores in NYC and the surrounding counties.
Doug aka BMTman
If in fact the FS Shuttle opens over Labor Day weekend, I'll see if I can organize a Subtalk FieldTrip to take a ride. I'll be working at WCBS that weekend :-)
I thought your name sounded familiar ...
Full length platforms would have been great for the labor day parade, and with service extended to Kings Hwy, Brighton Beach or Coney Island. But as with the possibility of a bridge shutdown, saving a few dollars on smaller structure eliminated any other thought. They'll probably have to keep Botanic Gardens closed, which IIRC they did in the last few years, since 2 car trains and small platforms will never handle the crowds. (In the past, they used 4 car tains of older cars which allowed the people to cross into cars that were beyond the platform)
Actually, the opening date will probably be Sept. 12, not Labor Day. I was over at Botanic Gdns and Franklin/Fulton today tho, and things are really coming together. Most of the concrete and cinder block surfaces have been stucco-ed, and the roof is up on most of the overhead pedestrian bridge at fulton st.
Why not wait a couple of weeks. Too much going on over the holiday and the next weekend is Rosh Hashanah. How about Friday September 17th or the next time after that you are the weekend weatherman.
Aaron... I'm working labor day weekend, then not 'til mid-October due to my travel schedule, the holidays, etc. But hopefully we can find a good day near the opening for a STFT!
The following is the transcription of a notice hung up in
he cabs of these R-44 cars: 5448 5449 5447 5446 5434 5435
5437 5436.
DIVISION OF CAR EQUIPMENT OFFICE OF FIELD ENGINEERING
train operator-conductor interactive door controls
Physical description:
The controls are housed in a small cabinet between the
console and the windshield. The controls include two
lighted push butttons one for the left and one for the
right side of the train consist. The two pushbutton lights
will come on when the Door Close train lines are
energized.
Function Description:
This system provides means by which the T/O can totally
withhold or give the C/R operational of the door system,
on a per side basis. The system will be operational when
the reverser is in foward, and after a cab is zoned in.
The circuitry installed provides a second B+ to be fed
into the Door Close trainlines, one on each side of the
consist, from an active Master Controller(reverser is in
the foward position) B+ on the door close train lines
prevents carbody door circuits from reccieving an open
command. The pushbuttons serve to disconnect this added B+
feed, thereby allowing the T/O to give permission to the
C/R to open the doors on that side of the train consist.
Inaction by the T/O denies the C/R permission to open the
doors. Doors can be opened on both sides, but the crew has
to
decide which side gets opened first. An additional
interlock is provided which prevents the T/O from using
this system to close the doors that have been opened by
the C/R.
Operational Procedure:
The T/O, after bringng the train to a station stop,
selects and depresses the bush button for the platform
side of the train. The button is to be held down until
it's pilot light goes out, which signifies that the C/R is
in agreement, and has turned the door system Master Key
Switch(MKS) on thesame side of the train, to the ON
position. This completes the action to be taken by the T/O
to give permission to the C/R to open the doors, until the
next station stop. The C/R operates the doors per existing
procedures. The system automaticaly resets to the safe
position when the C/R returns the MKS to the RUN position,
thereby returning the train to the T/O's control.
Interesting information, but it begs the question of WHY train operators are being given the ability to control the conductors' door responsibilities.
Because the TA doesn't trust us, and beleves we're all
idiots! They hire morons and provide bare minimum training
and then hold us (as a group) responsible for what two or three jerks who couldn't handle a simple task do!
I am vehemently against this. Not only does it degrade us as conductors but it violates the TA's own rules as it usurps our authority as Conductors.
Both rule 97 and 98 state clearly that the Conductor is in charge of the train. The Train Operator is under the orders of the Conductor in regard to stopping, starting and general operation of the train.
WHY THE HELL SHOULD I ASK FOR THE TRAIN OPERATORS PERMISSION FOR ANY THING?!!!?? Especially something which is so clearly MY job! I have so few physical tasks left. This is just another in a long line of indignities.
What excuse did the MTA give for making this modification? And how will giving the TO control of the door mechanism make the system safer? When i took the conductor's test in 1993 I was under the impression that the conductor was in charge of the train, and the TO answered to him/her.
2 or 3 idiots??
I think wrong side door openings are up to 8 this year, that is one a month. Same 2 or 3 does not go into 8.
I know there are outstanding conductors out there and most 98% do their job right. 40 doors opening on the wrong side SHOULD NOT HAPPEN.
So instead of the T/O voting on what side, should they put in sensors to detect the platform before MKS is turned?
Cheaper (this is the TA) is a push button in the cab.
It shouldn't be too hard to have a device which detects which side the platform is on. The Conductor then would push a "DOOR OPEN" button to operate the doors which would then open on the correct side automatically. Mistake proofing which has life saving potential should not be delayed by labor considerations. Besides, the Conductor's position should be protected also for reasons of passenger safety, OPTO is FOOLISH in today's society.
Does anyone know if the door openings on the wrong side have all been in the full width cabs, or have any been with conductors using the old style (R-42 and below, plus the few remaining R-62s)?
I would think if the conductor had to change cabs -- say moving from opening the doors on a side platform (local) to a center platform -- it would be a lot tougher to open the wrong side, since the conductor would have to be:
A. Thinking about changing locations;
B. Actually moving to the new location;
C. Opening the door to the other cab before inserting the key to open the side doors.
I'm sure it's happened even before the full widths became more common, but one a month combined with the incrase in conversions on the IRT might point to a connection.
[ I would think if the conductor had to change cabs -- say moving from
opening the doors on a side platform (local) to a center platform --
it would be a lot tougher to open the wrong side, since the conductor
would have to be:
A. Thinking about changing locations;
B. Actually moving to the new location;
C. Opening the door to the other cab before inserting the key to open
the side doors.]
Well, that assumes that the mistake was in going to the wrong side, and opening the doors. The more common mistake may be to _fail_ to change locations, and stay in the cab, but open the doors on the wrong side. All that takes is staring into space for a minute or two.
Still, there is that rule about pointing to the boards before opening the doors. Where are the boards on the side opposite the platform?
At Columbus Circle (59th St) on the IND. It says:
DO NOT OPEN DO NOT OPEN DO NOT OPEN
Yes - but there is a platform there!
Quite true. Same thing at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. There are similar signs there.
I still remember when the center platform at 59th was used during rush hours; in fact, I have boarded and disembarked from trains to and from that platform.
Is there any one reason why a conductor would open up on the wrong side? Not paying attention is about all I can come up with.
While we all engage in the Oxford-Cambridge debate about the indignities being foisted upon the conductor, it has happened again. On Wednesday, at Neptune Ave on the F, a conductor ignored the platform and opened up into space. No one hurt but definitely a career killer. Coments?
Where is he working now?
"Where is he working now?"
Your question is presumptous. I think your question would be more correct if you left off the "WHERE".
Unfortunatly many conductors are busy amusing themselves between stops that they get careless and don't pay attention to what they are doing. All it takes is a simple look out the window, look for a platform if there is one next look for your indication board because if there is no platform there will not be a board.
For me it's just this easy. I do not want to denegrate the job of Conductor but it seems to me that the conductor has just 3 primary responsibilities.
1. Open & close the doors at every station and insure that there is a platform for the customers to step out onto.
2. Ensure that no one is being dragged or riding on the outside of the train.
3. Make announcements to keep customers informed
Unless there is an unusual occurrence, that's it. It seems to me that with just those 3 things to do, only a moron would open doors on the wrong side of the train. With all the attention recently paid to this problem, with the conductor required to point at the C/Rs boards before opening, I can't see how it happened again. And yet, this person simply pointed out into space and then opened the doors. This guy should not only be fired (not demoted) but be charged with "reckless endangerment".
The problem is the conductor job is a 'safety sensative' position yet Civil Service and the TA Human Resourses treat it as an entry level position or a promotional outlet for cleaners to satisfy EEO. The job of conductor should be upgraded to reflect the true responsibility that the conductors actually have.
As for a circuit such as has been discussed here, if it can be overridden by the crew, then it will eventually fail. The correct solution would be 'wayside enabling' where a transducer from the platform edge enables the doors, independent of human judgement.
The concept of a wayside transducer, if indeed that will solve the problem, sounds intriguing. But what about (1) when the transducer fails and no one can get out or (2) when some fool figures out a way to override it anyway and opens the wrong side. I think we have to define what the real problem is here, and from my point of view it is a failure on the part of some people to think and be responsible for their actions. Kind of like those folks who don't feel the red lights apply to them and then complain about getting a ticket or, worse, who kill someone and try to weasel out of the manslaughter charge. One of the things I constantly remind the people on my team at work is that I am responsible for seeing that they do their job correctly, but that they are also responsible for doing it correctly in the first place since I don't have the time to monitor every action of 85 people. My immediate span of control is only about 12 people, but 9 of those have other people under them whose actions directly affect me. Accountability and responsibility are key, and those who don't want to be accountable to me for their actions quickly find out that they need to seek employment elsewhere.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Steve Conductors have more responsiblty then That. They are the one's that have to make sure us T/O operate our trains safely. By not overrunning a Station. Reporting Reckless T/o and making sure his or her T/O is fit to take the train down the road. Also there are responsible for fixing Door problems, Resetting Pulled cords. Ofcause I do help my C/R because we are a team and I was trainned as a Motorman. Some T/o don't help there conductors. I heard of lots on cases of a hanging gard light in the T/O position with the T/O just sitting in there cabs doing nothing. I also Witness this when I was off duty. But I did decide to fix the Problem and Identifyed myself when the Conductor walked all the way up front and he did thank me. Also it was on a A Divison. I know if I rode a B Division train I can't do anything to help since I'm not trainned for B Division.
I did say and took the extra step to hilight the word "PRIMARY". I am well aware of the many other duties the conductor has. The 3 I cited were the "PRIMARY" ones.
Has System Safety ever done any "exit interviews" with c/r who
open on the wrong side? It would be very beneficial to understand
WHY they would do this. You can't just write it off to "stupidity".
There must be something fundamentally wrong with training and
supervision. It would seem to me that you'd want your conductors
to reflexively check external conditions before opening the doors.
Open the window, stick head out, see board, turn key, press button.
That cycle should be deeply ingrained. Forget about pointing
at the board.....that's just management by silver bullet.
I'd really be interested in getting inside someone's head as they
make the mistake of wrong side opening.
I believe it is section 3.XX of the TWU contract that protects train crews from having to make incriminating statements after an incident.
(Anyone know otherwise). By the time the TWU gets done, there was a UFO, a bright flash and the doors just popped open by them self.
The fact is repetative jobs lead to boredom and errors or accidents.
I wouldn't say it's that repetitive. Every station is
different. Each stop has a different set of passengers. I
find opening at a new stop like a new program of
entertainment. Always someone to ask for directions. Or
some ass holding a door. Late at night is not quite as
fun, but even then I have never been that inattentive.
The only excuse I ever heard that was remotely close to
being understandable (and none are) was this one:
After arriving at Lefferts Blvd. with a train of R-44's
the Conductor de-zoned the door system controls and walked
through to the next car. This is an operating rule
violation by the way. He had trouble opening the plug door
between cars on the opposite side. Now some time had
passed
and he was getting anxious, and the Train Operator was
asking over the intercom what was taking so long. So
rather than wait any more, he just went back to the
original operating position and opened there. In the
confusion he opened on to the street. Thank god the
passengers waiting to get off were lined up against the
platform side. Unforgivable, but I can understand. Real
professional Conductors don't have that problem.
Another incident happened to a friend and infrequent
poster here on Subalk. Just after getting his indication
to leave Continental Av. Jim began moving out towards
Jamaica. A few seconds, and car lengths later he got a
long buzzer signal to stop. Then the doors opened! The pea
brained Conductor claimed that he saw someone's bag caught
in the doors. What was wrong with stoppng the train then
walking over to that car and freeing the parcel by opening
just that door panel?
It's guys like that, that give the rest of us a bad name.
"Repetitive jobs lead to boredom and errors or accidents"
That's my feeling too. Are any records kept indicating whether these incidents occur more frequently on equipment with full width cabs?
I suspect that being confined to a full width cab leads to boredom and inattention more quickly than on older equipment where the Conductor has to cross from one car to another to be on the proper side to open.
Perhaps operating rules should be changed requiring the Conductor to step out of the cab between stations. IMHO,this would make them more visible to the public and might help reduce the boredom factor.
Any thoughts?
I alwaqys thought that this WAS the rule, that the conductor must be visible to passengers seeking assistance.
-Hank
According to NYCT Rule #53,Conductors on R-44,46,62,68 cars are to remain inside the cab with the light on for visibility. They may leave the cab if a passenger KNOCKS requesting assistance.
Wouldn't the easiest solution to wrong-side door openings be to rig two set of door switches on each side of the cab? The left-hand switches would open the doors on the left-hand side, and vice versa.
I can't think of any way to open the wrong doors unless the conductor is a) stupid enough to lean of the wrong window and b) too blind to notice the absense of a platform.
CH.
Oddly enough, when conductors opened the doors from the outside of the cars (such as R-1 through 11) they virtually never opened on the wrong side. Could it be that they had to look down and had a natural view of the platform? This occurred to me this AM when I saw one female C/R who could not get her chin above the cab sash on an R-32 at Continental Ave. If she has to look up to operate, how can she see the platform?
Theres no hight requirment for the conductor position?
There is also no height requirement for police officer or fire fighter any more. I believe that the 1993 (?) amendment to Title VII made that against the law.
The problem is as you stated. The solution is simply as
you stated. STOP HIRING IDIOTS! Technology is great. But
there's no need for it here. We got along fine for what,
90 years? This recent rash is due to several factors. The
TA's hiring practices notwithstanding, it's also the TA's
working enviornment.
It's not hard finding droves of people who want this job.
But it is hard to find people of QUALITY. The word has gone out about the terrible way we are treated by our employer and the public both.
Any passenger just has to look at the representitve train
crew or Station Agent. Who in their right mind with viable employment options would work here? Railfans by
definition are NOT in their right mind.
People with college educations, or with extensive
experience in a technical feild mostly choose to work else
where. Look at the current demographics. Large percenatges
of recent immigrants, and under-employable minorities.
Heck, RTO is full of former bicycle messengers and hamburger
flippers. This is what management wanted. These people
need the TA. So in the TA's warped logic, they can be paid
less than a skilled and educated employee. They won't
strike, because they have no other employment options.
They most likely won't be disciplinary problems because
they would be too afraid of loosing their jobs.(boy did
that one blow up in management's face)
So now we have all these Conductors opening up on the
wrong side.
Last week I posted what I feel is wrong with the civil
service system. See my post "is pointing enough? My $0.02
worth"
I say hire by resume! Hire off the street, BUT TRAIN
PROPERLY! And have the final qualification testing done by
a seperate department. That's the way it's done on the RR.
When I went through school car, the Motor Instructors
actually helped poor students pass the final exam. Why?
Because a high failure rate costs the TA money. So It's
cheaper to risk doors opening on the wrong side/outsde to
save money on failed students. Just like system safety,
training and qualification has become a deficit of
integrity. Money, that's all that matters. And if spending
a few hundred thousand in the short term on a silly device
for the door system so they can save millions on training
is called productive, then this organization makes me
sick.
I agree with a few things that the "Transit Professional formerly know as Mr R46" says. I suggest we stay with the civil service exam, promotional that is but, school car could be doing alot better job of training. The unfortunate reality is that the superintendent in charge of Training and Qualification, she is only concerned with numbers. Pass everybody! Yes, this does put passengers and employees at risk. If a person has trouble grasping the job of conductor, or train operator or towerman, give them a little more time in school car. If they still cannot grasp the job they are being trained for send them back to their former title, don't release them to the road. I can think of a very recent instance when a new train operator hit a home ball (one in a very blind spot, 2nd Av on the F entering the express tracks). He was instructed to take the call-on. He walked all the way back to Broadway-Lafayette and re-punched. This man did not know what the call-on was. For crying out loud how can a train operator be released to the road and not know what a call-on is.
Getting back to the origional point, school car motor instructors are under great pressure to pass everybody. If they don't,they run the risk of being sent back to the road, losing the Am hours, weekends off etc. Remember, school car motor instructor is an appointed position. Unfortunatly, us motor instructrs on the road have to deal with this and foibles that are brought with it.
I always feel good when corroborating posts come up.
>how will giving the TO control of the door mechanism make the system safer?
I guess it's error control. A door being opened in the wrong place is less likely to happen if two people were in control of the doors. BOTH would have to make a mistake, then, and it's less likely both would make the same mistake. (If one misses, the other catches)
But look on the bright side, perhaps, they'll repeal the silly pointing rule.
>But look on the bright side, perhaps, they'll repeal the silly pointing rule.
Or maybe they'll put up boards for the TO to point at.
And while they're at it, why not require someone riding in the rear of the last car to push a button as well?
Question: will the train operator get paid more money since this new scheme will give him/her another thing to do, and add more responsibility to the job?
I wonder if we should file a grievance for violation of "gain sharing".
Erik, I had posted information about two months ago that this system would be tested. It's not a question of permission but is a question of agreement. The doors can only be opened IF the T/O and C/R agree as to which side is to be opened.
I will say- off the record - that I don't like the idea for other reasons. But I, again, MUST disagree with you when you say the TA must think you are all idiots (or words to that effect). They actually think about a half dozen of you are idiots and they have been given ample evidence of such by opening doors on the wrong side this year.
Steve, if you find out, please let us know how much extra time this takes at each station when the two are in agreement and how much extra time it takes if the T/O picks the wrong side and the C/R picks the right side. It sounds like extra time in the station, which should bother some people - like the ones who thought "Please" took up too much time. Oh, and what happens if the system fails? No one gets off the train?
I doubt if it will ever come to that. Perhaps, if the train operator and conductor disagree as to which side to open, it will be considered a tie. In case of a tie, the crew might opt to just bypass the station or have the passengers vote on which side to open the doors (a simple show of hands or perhaps electronic buzzers at each seat)
My feeling is based on a basic principle of design engineering. "Anyone who designs anything to be foolproof, underestimates the abilities of a fool" Other concerns, when trains are undergoing pre-service inspection by an RCI, who will 'confirm' the sides for the RCI so he can open and check the doors? Same for a T/O making up a train for service?
Then again - is the current system of pointing at the C/Rs boards enough or is it not foolproof? See my next posting on the subject.
[ My feeling is based on a basic principle of design engineering.
"Anyone who designs anything to be foolproof, underestimates the
abilities of a fool" Other concerns, when trains are undergoing
pre-service inspection by an RCI, who will 'confirm' the sides for the
RCI so he can open and check the doors? Same for a T/O making up a
train for service ]
Steve, I thought that the design that you told us about only activated the buttons when the reverser is in the forward position. In that case, an RCI testing the doors and such could (and probably would, right) have the reverser on both ends centered, and thus the system would not come into play.
This also is an easy way for a road crew to bypass the system should the buttons fail, etc.
Did I misunderstand?
I have not seen the circuit nor been briefed on it's operation so I couldn't comment either way.
Sounds like I had better stock up on butcher books and pens,there will be a lot more T.T.'s to write for this mod!
If you are an RCI, why not do what the rest of them do:
RCI was notified by ________________ . RCI din not see train!
Seems to me that's what the job has become.
Oh yes. That and:
No Cause found. Or BAS could not be corrected. Your'e right, the level of expertise for that particular title has fallen greatly.
If the system fails, it will be treated as doors failing to open which will result in the train being discharged and sent light to the yard.
How much extra time does it take when the T/O picks the right side and the C/R picks the wrong side? By the way, how many of the wrong side openings were onto a platform and how many were into the void?
All the sophistication of the nuclear missle launch interlock,
just to open the doors! ROTFL!
This "solution" to the door opening problem, like the pointing
idea, is a good example of someone trying to find a silver
bullet instead of addressing a really tough problem.
Problem: C/R opens door on wrong side. Solution: Fire the person.
Yes, people make mistakes. But if you are a conductor and you
open the doors into the abyss, clearly you have a fundamental
problem with your process. Opening onto the wrong platform
(e.g. Columbus Circle on the IND) is a forgiveable oopsy and
won't cause much harm other than some annoyed pax and a little
delay. But opening onto nothing shows the conductor just pushed
the button without looking. No matter how tired the c/r is,
if that's not so deep inside that it is instinctive, then he or
she just doesn't get it.
As for Steve's 2 observations on rules violations....not pulling
the cord I agree with. The c/r should have been paying attention
to the radio and would have heard the instructions to take a battery.
The m/m probably didn't say anything because he or she assumed that
was the case. So here comes the station and there it goes, and
it's time to make a spot judgement call..."did I miss when they
said we were taking a battery, and we are running late with the
road behind us, or maybe my m/m has gone psycho?" As for the second incident, ummmmmmm, taken out of
context that doesn't sound too good. Steve: What kind of failure
would cause loss of indication but ability to take power without
the side door bypass?
A final tech note to Steve: Could you explain from a circuits
standpoint how this door agreement mod was done? I thought the
"Vapor" mods of 10 years ago kept the door close lines energized
at all times except during an open command?
I have not seen the schematics yet but I hope to by Monday. Seems to me that it would be a straight foward arrangement where the T/O provides a B+ feed for the Push Button relay on the correct side via T/Line wires. I will report when I have the facts.
As for the 2nd incident I reported, I don't know what failure mode there was but I suspect that if the T/O was actually able to take power without indication, the bypass was self-energized simply by being out of adjustment. However, the point is that the operator should not have known that he could take power without indication. This crew's actions were inexcusable.
According to the post at http://brighton.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=45731 -- the start of this thread, the announcement from CED described the system's operation.
In short, the system energized the door close lines when the reverser is set to forward. Pressing the buttons removes B+ from the door close line on a particular side.
Therefore, if the motorman's position is not active (reverser centered, etc), the system is not active.
This means:
1) The problems with single-man testing are moot (i.e. T/O testing trains after make-up, RCI inspections, etc).
2) If the push-buttons are stuck or broken, one can bypass the system simply by centering the reverser.
So, then, if this is installed system-wide, and is a totally crappy system, you could see T/O's centering the key at every station. Of course, it's easy to see that happen, because of the headlights. Which brings me to a more or less unrelated point. In the pre-smee days, when if you wanted to drop the button, you had to center the reverser, did motormen often center the reverser for long station stop or when they were being held?
The post you refer to was written by a technically savy conductor. However, he was reading an RTO bulletin. I'll wait until I see the drawings and System Upgrade Bulletin (SUB) before I accept any RTO bulletin.
RTO bulletins are written by RTO personnel, some of whom leave much to be desired,technically. Anecdotally, I had to cut out a motor on a car recently. The TSS on the train asked how I knew I hadn't cut out the motors on the entire 4-car unit. He then asked me about the readings on the "altimeter". Now you know why I prefer to withhold judgement until the official version is out.
Which TSS said that? Please, I really want to know. I REALLY want to know. The notice was issued by DCE field engineering. As far as I know, there still is no RTO paperwork on that train.
As for reverser centering on AMUE cars, I know that many old time Motormen used to make a reduction of sufficient strength, then center the reverser while desending the Williamsburg Bridge. That way, the train used to run itself down the grade.
But better pay attention, or you would run right out of Marcy Av.
Maybe Todd Glickman was on the train with his famous watch.
How many were onto the wrong platform? How many into the void?
What happened to the conductors?
stupidest contraption that could have ever been made!
You know way more than I do, so I guess you'll probably know this. Was the LIRR platform for Floral Park always an elevated or could it have been at grade level earlier in the century? I bought my house out here in 1972 and it's been the same station with few modifications since then. Thanks, Salvatore.
The junction at Floral Park was at grade, I believe into the 50s. I saw one photo and the interchange looked similar to Mineola with a tower and switches (and even a X'ing).
The present elevated Floral Park station dates from around 1960. for a little more history, check out http://www.lirrhistory.com/hempsta.html
In another thread about Local 100, hiring, etc. was a comment (from me) about little things an employee could do to provide service to the staff or the customer ... here's an example ....
One of our new Orion CNGs came back from it's AM run with a farebox problem. I detected this when I observed the driver, the vault puller and one of my farebox repair guys in the bus. The driver said the TPU was jammed (that's the MC unit). Sure enough by opening the side door and turning the wheel, three MCs came out. The driver had used the cardboard backing of the paper transfers to record name/phone/address of three customers(which he uses for Expresss customers that want to transfer to another of Express busses). Now NYCDOT in their infinate wisdom doesn't think we need a "reader" here so the only way to check out the cards is to put them in a good box, but that'll deduct 1.50.
Well this employee went to lunch at Northern & Broadway for two reasons: One the G/R stops there; two I could park in Mickey Ds (harder to park on Main Street even though it's closer). I used the reader to discover: Unlimited Express card that expires 7/27 (makes since since our driver was on a Express run); a $30 card with $21 left; and a $15 with a zero balance. One of the customers said she lost her Senior (w/photo) MC, sorry wasn't one of the three. Diane upstairs wasn't happy when I brought here the three cards, because she gets the job of calling all three and hopping one knows they had about $21 dollars left on their lost card (the driver indicated who owns the unlimited & we have a their Manhattan work number).
While downing my Happy Meal I observered two old (white) ladies passing out paper Transfers. Our Q66 pulled up and guess what, the farebox wouldn't accept them (hope they weren't charging for the free transfer !) ... the nice young driver let the "transfer" customers on anyhow. Guess I'll have to do another survey (my staff dumps the contents of the "Capture Bin" on the AM fleet near noon, it's a good indication of what is going on for more then half our fleet).
Would I do this again ... sure because in my Happy Meal was Inspector Gadget's leg ... you have to be a collector or very young to understand.
Mr t__B-)... a smilie with sun glasses cause I was outside
The Unlimited Express customer is stopping by our depot after hours to retrieve her card ... the policy is: we can mail it or get here by 5 PM, but this was our fault (the farebox wasn't working) so one of the Dispatchers will have her card & she knows how to get to his window.
I have to assume that she will purchase a "Fun Pass" ($4 vs. $3) and take a combination of subways & buses to get home tonight ... probally not much fun in that unless she's a subway buff ?
Mr t__=:-)
Well, that assumes she'll FIND a FunPass vendor :)
--Mark
While in The Bronx last week photographing, My friend John and myself stopped at Gun Hill Road Sta. While walking on the northbound platform I noticed that the long abandoned escalator to the lover track level (3AV EL.) was gone. New concrete covered the area. We decided to get a better look and found that on the lower level, With the exception of the area over the token booth, The Platforms, Railings, Signs, And Lights were gone. All that remains is the steelwork. Does anyone know when this was done?? I was last there last summer and the platforms were pretty far gone then.
Until next time,
Mark
By the way, did you take that trip last Friday?
The reason I ask this question is that last Friday I went to 238 Street station to take pictures at #2 Redbirds. I was at the rear end of the southbound platform. When a northbound #2 train stopped at the station, I saw a person waving at me. I waved at him, too.
Clearly he is a subway fan. I don't know whether it was you or your friend waving at me. If so, glad to meet in the net!
Cheers,
Chaohwa
I was there this past Wednesday. I think it was removed sometime late last year. I was also surprised to see it all gone.
--Mark
Will we have one for local 100? I read a while back this would take place in madison square garden. I think if we can get all our members together it will boost our union and bring back some respect we lost over the years. The T.A., mayor, govenor, and other unions will be watching this carefully.
I'd like to see a mass membership meeting for DC 37. You'd have 30,000 people throwing tomatos at the podium. You say the TWU has lost respect? Want to switch unions?
At least you guys got more money for OPTO, unlike here in Chicago ATU308 got us nothing.
Its only pennies and it sure not worth it. But our union seems to think it is!
Mr. Yellow -
Would MORE money make OPTO more acceptable or safer?
Even if the membership was making .50/hr. more, would that in turn, make the trains safer for the traveling public?
What is at issue here? Safe operation of trains and safety for the passengers, or more money for the union members?
Mr. Yellow, you and your brothers and sisters are NOT THE ONLY ONES who lost in the elimination of conductors in Chicago. The hundreds of passengers riding behind you on each trip have lost safety, convenience and faster trips. Is the riders loss worth .50/hr. gain to the membership?
I am not disagreeing with you regarding the lousy way OPTO slipped into Chicago practically overnight. But please, don't use the safety issue as a reason against it, and then rally for a raise to make OPTO more palatable. Thank you!
Jim K.
Chicago
Well said Jim K, OPTO in 'base-day' or rush on the CTA is IMHO ridiculous. However certainly late evening and OWL runs which are often 2 car trains would not seem a problem. Remember OPTO began on the Evanston line in the 50's with the "one-man" cars #1-50, specially built with fareboxes in the cabs. This was done when ridership was so thin that a single car was sufficient. (Elevated trolley cars indeed)
Built from streetcar parts at that.
Yep, 570 of the 600 Green Hornets served as organ donors for the 6000-series fleet.
I still say the Red line should have conductors over its entire route, not just in the State St. subway, during daytime hours at least.
The additional person is needed even more for safety at night. Back in the '50s there was more fear of the consequences (aka Respect of the Law) again I say, OPTO is FOOLISH in today's society Remember, the fearmongering corporate media is under orders from their puppetmasters to work to disarm America -- the reality is that criminals will be discouraged 999,999 times out of a million by a TA conductor with a radio
John, without trying to beat this thread to death, you are assuming that the employee in question will USE said radio in the event of trouble. NOT an ironclad guarantee. As to disarmament I support the Bill of Rights. When I used to ride home in the middle of the night on CTA (depart Howard between 12 AM & 4AM) I always rode in the railfan seat adjacent the cab, but that was as much for entertainment as safety. Sometimes I had a Nikon & several lenses in my pockets, sometimes not. Often I zoned out @ Jarvis or so waking briefly as we hit the tunnel and emerged again, then snoring to the end @ Jackson Park. THE "worst" that ever happpened was while then waiting for a bus @ Stony/63rd I was accosted by a pimp--At age 20 in the early 60's I was more embarassed than anything else.
Hey Mr. K, Did you complain to CTA management, your alderman, or his majesty Richie Daley, and where were the petition drives when opto was phased in?
Yes Mr. Yellow, of course you know I did. The letters went unanswered.
The tranist rider is NOT politically significanate to cause a reaction from elected officals.
BTW, MR. Yellow, the traveling public is "programmed" to expect the worst. I'm questioning what is the excuse for Local 308?
Jim K.
Chicago
I am not Mr. Yellow! As for 308, ask Jerry Williams, and all he'll do is blame the previous administration.
Sorry Mr. Mystery, I'm having trouble keeping up with the changes in name or handle.
Jim K.
Chicago
No problem.
At about 6:30AM this morning a women desided to end her life by jumping in front of a Downtown No.1 Train at Christopher Street. This was a pritty bad one. I won't mention any detales since its under Investigation and the story would make you sick to your stomach. I did see the T/O and ofcause very shaken. Hopefully he will recover from the shock he experanced since it happened in front of him. It almost makes me think why I am running a train.
The No.1,2,3 Trains were messed up because of this. On the No.1 Line skip stops were cancelled for the Morning Rush Hour and all No.1 Trains ran 10 Minutes apart from 7:00AM and 9:00AM. So All No.2,3 Trains had to make Local stops. Everything Downtown was Express from 14 Street to Chambers Street. After 8AM they continued the Local Service from 14 Street and the No.2,3 Trains continued Express. But the No.1 still ran 10 Minutes apart because of lack of trains. The No.1 did not go back to the REG. 5 minute headway until 9AM. I Left at around 8:30AM and the platforms were wall to wall from 231 Street to 34 Street. Also spending about 1 Minute at the station stops with people jamming into the cars. What a trip. It took me 1 Hour and 10 Minute when the running time is 54 Minutes. Also there was a women who rushed for a train at South Ferry and fell between train and Platform at about 11:35AM. So the No.1 service to South Ferry was out for 20 Minutes. The person servived and got back on the Platform and train continued in Service to 242 Street where the crew was Interviewed and was Not taken out of Service. But I don't know about what happened to the Platform Conductor. So that was 2 12-9's for the No.1 Line today.
I hear you, Dave. I feel for the T/O who had to go through that unfortunate experience. While we had a safe and (relatively) uneventful day yesterday, riding on various and sundry #2, #3, #5 and #6 trains (plus one "L"), it is a grim reminder that subway tracks are a perilous place and even the most seasoned and skilled T/O is defenseless against someone who is hell bent on ending ones (or someone else's) life. 400-plus tons of steel and humanity is not designed to stop on a dime, no matter how good the emergency brakes.
Wayne
This weekend the Uptown No.2,3 Track North of 96 Street to South of 110 Street will be closed from 12:01AM Saturday to 5AM Monday Morning. Therefore there will be a signal track operation witch will cause Major delays.
Here are the Service Changes
No.2 Line
E 241 STREET TO FLATBUSH AVE
All No.2 trains will run every 20 Minutes from 96 Street to E 241 Street.
96 STREET TO FLATBUSH
The No.2 Line will then run 10 Minute headways
(20 Mins from 241 and 20 Mins from 96 St)
No.3 Line
No service from 96 Street to 148 Street.
ALL 96 Street bound No.2,3 trains will all be relayed on M TK at 103 Street- BWAY
The No.1 Line will run every 8 Minutes with delays between 103 Street and 86 Street Because of the relays.
So use the No.5 service to get around that. If its available to you.
What is the reason?
They are doing work in the Compresser room North of 96 Street by the Uptown track. So the No.2 Trains will do Single track operation on the Downtown track from 96 Street to 110 Street. Every other No.2 Train will go to the Bronx. So 20 Minutes waits for a Uptown or downtown No.2 Train all weekend long if your between 96 Street and E 241 Street. All No.3 and some No.2 Trains will not go pass 96 Street and BWAY they will all relay on the middle track at 103 Street on the No.1 line. so there will be delays on the No.1,2,3 Trains in the area of 96 Street. I did G.O'S like this many of times at 96 Street and it will be one big mess. Also please note in the past they had a No.2 Shuttle from 149 to E 241 or sent No.5 Trains to E 241 to to Provide 10 Minute headways in the Bronx and keep the 20 Minute waits in the affected area. Well sory to say they are not providing any of those services so those in the Bronx will be stuck with 20 Minute wait at all No.2 stations above 96 Street.
Why does work in a compresser room require a change in service?
They where knocking it down.
Is the fact that conductors are required to point at the conductor's boards enough to insure safety. My feeling is that serves as a reminder but not as a failsafe system. Here is an example of a failsafe procedure that failed. I would be most interested in comments by our resident RTO people especially those who have been critical of management.
Incident:
One AM this week I was ridding a train that had experienced door trouble en route. The conductor changed operating positions and the train continued in service. We get through Manhattan but because of heavy riding, the train is getting later and later. Nearly empty trains are less than a minute behind us. I was riding withthe C/R trying to identify the cause of the failure. At one station, the C/R closed the doors and made the appropriate 'next station' announcement. However, we run through the next station. What is the C/R supposed to do? The conductor did not do it!!!! The C/R waited until (s)he could get the train operator via the intercom and confirmed that Control Center had authorized a battery run.
In a second - unrelated incident, I heard via radio about a train stopped with one car in the station. The train operator reports via radio that both he and the conductor have lost their indication ,u>BUT he can still take power without using the bypass. HELLO - Does anyone see something wrong with the picture yet?
What happened next just served to compound the incident.
Anyway, my point is that regardless of rules and safeguards, people make mistakes, especially under pressure. Routine, pre-occupation and boredom only compound the problem.
First incident: Although the rules call for a conductor to
pull the cord when a motorman passes a station without
stopping, most of us won't. In most situations like this
we already either know we are late, and have been
listening/talking on the radio or we know the motorman
well enough to know if he's bypassing a station there must
be a reason.
Pulling the cord is a rather drastic measure taxing the
passengers patience with it's abrupt stop and resultant
wait for a recharge. Not to mention having to go through
the hassle of calling the control center. The rule's real reason
for existance is in case the motorman was drunk or
otherwise incapacitated. But if that were to happen we
should be responsible enough to know it before. If my
motorman didn't respond, I would then of course pull the
cord. It's a last ditch thing, not something you do every
time you have a doubt.
Second incident: a fool and a radio digging his own grave.
Explain to me how he found out his train takes power
without indication? While PASSENGERS are aboard!
I think a lot of this goes back to two things. Training
and selection. As most of you already know my feelings on
the former, I'll enlighten you on the latter.
I am one of the few people who does not oppose open
competitive train operator hiring. The biggest problem
after training we have at an individual level is just
plain bad employees. No amount of training makes up for a
poor work ethic or bad attidude. Tell the truth it makes
my life harder as a union rep. I frequently have to defend
people who I privately feel SHOULD be fired.
The current hiring system takes a raw test score and uses
that solely as the basis for selection. Color blind, yes.
Discriminatory, no. Discrimination based on race or
religion is wrong. But what about discriminaton towards
people who abuse their sick time or show a lack of
attentiveness? People with a bad customer service attitude
or work ethic. Remember when saying someone had
"discriminating taste" meant they setted for only the
best? Why shouldn't the TA?
That is probably the biggest flaw with the system today.
And I and the other "good" employees must live with it.
And no amount of training will make up for an idiot with
an MDC key facing the wrong way.
The railroads don't suffer this innane civil service
system which judges arbitrarily and not on skill, ability
or experience. Forget personality, or carachter Which is one of several reasons why they
don't suffer these kind of problems in the numbers that we
do.
I'd like to see hiring by (this statement will probably
cost me my shop steward title) resume and interview, but
it'll never happen. TWU is already screaming the buzzwords
of those who don't really have any merit to their argument
and know that is all they have left.
But really, is it fair for trully dedicated (railfan)
people who could be connsumate professionals as train
operators to get lumped in and frequently behind lesser
individuals, just looking for a civil service job? Simply
because the list came out a certain way? For what? So we
can say "this is fair"? Why should TA have to provide
these people jobs, when they would be un-employable
anywhere else? Are we trying to run the world's greatest
transportation system or the world's largest welfare
system?
Are they the best for the job? Would you select a doctor
this way? But we select the men and women who transport us
and our families this way.
Erik
In the NY Post Friday July 23, page 11, is a article that the TA is racing toward a whopping windfall of $150 million to $200 million by the end of 1999 - largely due to a continuing ridership boom.
The agency has a $22 million surplus so far this year the MTA budget director Gary Caplan said on Thursday July 22.
After the folks of SubTalk read the article your thought are most welcome.
charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Neverthless, I'm very sure the TA will claim poverty at contract negotiating time.
Does the New York Times EVER write about transit or you just don't know it?
He just doesn't know it. I just did a search of the nytimes.com web site and got 491 hits for "transit."
Afew months ago i saw a badly mauled animal rsembling an armidillo on the SIR line . Iforgot where but can anyone tell what that animal amy have been
Probably was a dead armadillo....
That's an R-44.
Coulda been anything, but DEFINATELY not an armadillo, as they don't live in these parts. Most likely a possum, or a raccoon.
-Hank
[Coulda been anything, but DEFINATELY not an armadillo, as they don't live in these parts. Most likely a possum, or a raccoon.]
I've seen road-kill armadillos (in Florida) and possums (everywhere), and it would be possible to confuse the two. Especially if wet, a possum's greyish fur somewhat resembles an armadillo's plates. From a distance, or in poor light, confusion is quite understandable.
The object then may have have been an oppasum because it was shpritzing wheni saw this thing
I am looking at the July 1977 issue of the NYD Bulletin and it states that D-Type 6119B is on a chicken farm in upstate NY.
There is also mention that B Type 2321 and R1/9 983 and 1144 were sold intact. Does anyone have more details on these transactions?
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
Car 1144 went to the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre in England and is listed in the museum roster. Don't know about 983. 923 is at Coney Island Yard.
-Dave
Car 1144 wasn't the only one that went to England. About two years ago, a poster from England in nyc.transit newsgroup discussed how another 1100-series IND car became part of a night club over there. Somehow the number 1138 sticks in my mind...the poster did include a photo of the car from what I remember, so perhaps some searching at DejaNews might be fruitful.
It was my understanding that use of the service gate to enter the subway system was allowed if the pax went and stood in line for the token booth. Notified the RR Clerk, paid his/her fare at the turnstile and "turned the wheel". At that point the clerk would buzz the gate.
Now at 23rd St./Ely Ave Northbound entrance there is a hand written sign displayed in the token booththat says (from memeory but you get the idea)
"Due to the non payment of fares, all handcarts must be lifted over turnstile. No one is allowed to use the gate".
This station is used by many young "salesmen" that have carts full of merchandise that they sell in the street. The "warehouse" is down the block from the station. I assume this sign is referring to them. But when I tired to use the service gate carrying luggage (not obvious boxes of questionable merchandise) I was told to lift it over the turnstile.
Who can change the "rules" for this one station??
The "station manager" or whatever the TA is calling them now?
I called the number listed on the sign, but as usuaual no answer.
Thank goodness I don't often travel the subway with luggage. My home station is very nice about the use of the service gate coming and going.
The only way to deal with bozos who make their own rules is to take names and write them up.
That would involve many notepads, since, it seems that each employee makes up his/her own set of rules.
I just have a feeling it is a "house rule" by a station agent at that station. And there is no such thing as a house rule in the TA. The TA suits would never word something like "....due to non-payment of fares..." Write a letter to station dept at 370 Jay St. if you get no response to the phone calls. Or try calling 330-3322. Post or E-Mail me on how you make out. I'm also interested for a personal selfish reason: Even though I am an employee, in 3 weeks me and my son will be leaving for vacation, will be driven to 23/Ely with luggage so we can ride the E to Penn Station to catch an AMTRAK train. I would hate for us to be denied entrance as a house rule.
I must say that the modified R44's on the Staten Island Railway are in poor condition.
I haven't been on the SIR in a long while and the inside of the cars have changed. The R44's on the A are in much better condition and they have many more miles/pax on them.
Overhead ventilation ducts are rusting, the car seats are all chipped and dull. The car bodies themselves on the SIR look terrible.
Too bad, SIR used to be such a shinny star for the MTA, I wonder if their on time performance has dropped too? Was the highest of all the MTA but that is a joke anyway hehe.
But the SIRT R-44s ACCELERATE much faster than the NYC Transit R-44s.
--Mark
I rode the SIRT about one month ago and was very impressed with the accelleration and smooth ride. The cars get up to a good speed even on the northern end of the line where the stations are more closely speced.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[ I rode the SIRT about one month ago and was very impressed with the
accelleration and smooth ride. The cars get up to a good speed even on
the northern end of the line where the stations are more closely
speced. ]
Sounds like these cars haven't been neutered like the entire NYCT fleet.
Does anyone know if these cars still have their field shunting enabled?
The SIRT is one of the MTA's best lines, they are always on-time or close to schedule! These trains are some of the fastest in the system (next to the Kawasaki R62 on the 4-Line). Due to the behavior of those on the northern tip of the island, that's what contributes to the condition of the car. But that very small compared to the A-Lines R44. Most of the R44 on the A-Line are dirty, I know because I ride this line because I basically live on top of the line. There is trash, the car floor is sticky and windows are very horrible, so compare that to the R44SIR and R-44TA and the R-44SIR comes out on top!!!!!!!!
They're fast, well taken care of (mechanically, at least) and it's easy to be on-time when you make up the schedule as you go along. More later, when I have the time.
-Hank
OK. When the cars went out for Overhaul, they came back very different. All the paint was removed, some cars had their MTA logos (which were the MTA logo, 'New York City' around the top, and 'Staten Island' underneath) covered over with generic old-style MTA logos.
The door motors were replaces, but insted of scoring the wall sections so that the panel could bend, the walls are instead cracking, as are the seats, which are VERY worn down compared to the cars in the city. The paint is peeling badly on the ceiling, the A/C filters don't seem to ever have been replaced. The car ends are patched in places with bondo and duct tape, some of the external welds (where the bolt holes for the grab irons were) are craking, and the windows leak badly.
They do accelerate pretty quick, and make good speed as well.
-Hank
I agree, The R44SIR's are excellent cars and remind me very much of the R-46 and R62(Kawasaki)in acceleration. The exterior apperance to me is very impressive compared to the R44TA's. The on time performance is fantastic. The trains run according to the timetable and that is not the case here in Manhattan. I can't stand the A line anylonger and have switched to the Broadway #1/9 line due to more frequency of service. By the way my favorite cars are the R40M, R44SIR, and R62.
Peace
DaShawn
Does anyone know when the 1999 Insiders Subway Guide will makes its publication debut?
Is this the correct name? I know that the Department of Buses also publishes an Insiders Guide.
Thanks
The '98 version is titled "1998 Subway Guide" ... this past May, at a tour of CI Shops, they were still handing out the '98 version.
Mr t__:^)
I don't know about the subway guide but I was talking to someone at bus customer relations this week and they told me the 99 edition of the bus guide will be out sometime in August. Maybe the subway guide will also be available. Just a guess.
Some time back I made reference to the Stillwell Avenue terminal in Coney Island in which I lamented the seedy and sad conditions of the station, especially as you descended down the stairs to Coney Island.
Has there been any refurbishing of that station, or, for that matter, any of the other stations on the Southern Route since I was last in New York in 1991? Some of the stations on the Sea Beach line were in bad need of cleaning, although the Brighton Line looked ok as far as that went. Since Guiliani has done such a bangup job as Mayor from what I have heard and read, perhaps he's done something to make the New York subway system a showplace that all of us think of it as.
All stations on the Brighton Line have been rebuilt from Prospect Park to Ocean Ave. With the reopening of the Franklin Ave Shuttle, those stations will have been redone as well.
(The plan for the Franklin Ave rebuild stated Prospect Park was already done too).
Fred; I was down at Stillwell Av Terminal earlier this year and its hard to imagine a more depressing place below the track level. The bathroom is never open and the whole place has an unwholesome clammy feel about it. Of course if you go up to where the trains are it is much brighter and far more interesting.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thats funny, admittedly Im not there a lot, but EVERY time Ive been to Stillwell in the last 2 yrs or so, the bathrooms (at least the MENS..lol) have not only been open (THANK GOD!), but CLEAN!!!
Well, the Sea Beach Line stations from Pacific St to 59th St, for the most part, have been cleaned up and/or rehabilitated. The stations in the open cut from 8th Ave to 86th St are all in need of repair. The concrete is crumbling. The concrete used (like that of the Queens Blvd viaduct of the Flushing Line) doesn't handle moisture well. As you may alreadyy know, the Queens Blvd viaduct had an extensive rebuild a few years ago, and I suspect the same may be true of the Sea Beach open cut stations.
Most of the Brighton line has been cleaned up or refurbished. All the station canopies have been redone. Some of the concrete on the platform, while in OK shape, is not level in certain stations. Signalling and track have been replaced. Oddly enough, I was on the Brighton line last Sunday and the southbound (to Brighton) express tracks were being replaced around Ave N - it looked like a section of welded rail was being replaced with standard track! No welds!
The West End line is in good shape. So is the Culver, although West 8th was a little dirtier and smellier than I'd like.
As for Stillwell, at least all the trackbeds have been replaced. There's supposed to be a 9th track built adjacent to the Sea Beach terminal tracks to act as a bypass when the Queens Blvd connector (B/Q) at 21st / Queensbridge goes into service, but so far, nothing has been done.
--Mark
I would guess if the mayor and the Mets get their planned Class A minor league stadium built at Coney Island, then they'll fix up Stillwell.
The Mets wanna put a Class A team in Coney Island? This is news to this Met fan's ears....
It not a Class A team, it a Rookie league (Pittfield Mets). And the MTA will rebuilt Stillwell Avenue sometime next year or 2001 before they move to Coney Island. I am a Die Hard Mets Fan since i was 6 years old.
Sure. It's to keep things even since the Yanks got to put a farm team in Staten Island.
And I hear they are reopening the North Shore Line to provide SIRT service from St. George to the ballpark.
I suspect that someone's dreaming ... although I'd love to be proven wrong! Hank, do you have any info?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's really no point to it. The line that is in use by the SIR already is on the property that the stadium may be built on. They'd simply need to build a platform or two there. But there'd be no pint. The Stadium is going to be directly attached to the renovated ferry terminal and SIAAS museum, so the existing station at St. George should suffice. They just need the ensure that they leave space for the trains under the stadium.
-Hank
Ah - I didn't realize that the new stadium was to be located right by the ferry terminal. Thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The 59th Street-4th Avenue station is in pretty sad shape. Ceiling's peeling, stalactites are forming, wall tiles are in SERIOUS NEED of reglazing (they did a beautiful job of this at Pacific, 36th Street and at 95th Street). Bay Ridge and 77th are OK - still sporting their
1970s tile; 86th street is downright UGHLY with that awful green paint on the NAKED walls. Hasn't anyone heard of panel tiles - like at Lexington Ave-60th Street, Union Square (L), various IND stations?
Heck, I'll even volunteer to re-draw the correct frieze and tablet patterns for them.
As was reported in previous posts, Coney Island-Stillwell's stairwells and exit ramps are THE PITS. They look like Chambers Street. To really appreciate how bad it is, go there on a rainy day. There are holes in the roof, drain-pipes send water cascading down to the right of the entrance, there are huge peeling things dangling from the ceilings in the rampways. Once on the platform, it gets better. It is not in particularly bad shape there.
As for the rest room - every time I've been there, it's been open. It's in pretty good shape considering the rest of the surroundings. No broken sinks, bowls, etc. Except for one of those little round recessed light fixtures is kaput.
Wayne
[As was reported in previous posts, Coney Island-Stillwell's stairwells and exit ramps are THE PITS.
They look like Chambers Street.]
I'll have to go out to Stillwell some day and see for myself (haven't been there in years). I didn't think *anything* could be worse than Chambers Street!
Well, it's not QUITE that bad but it's getting there. The deterioration and decay is most evident as I mentioned in the stairwells and rampways, as well as in the roof above the entranceways outside of the fare control.
On the bright side, there's a nice little mural called "Waves" - it is up near the ceiling inside the fare control before the stairways.
I guess Chambers Street is getting worse. I haven't been there since 1998. I wonder if any more chunks of ceiling and wall have fallen.
Wayne
Now that they're completely tearing up and repaving the ground and street above it, perhaps the leakage problem will be solved, and then they'll fix that station.
They are only working above the mezzanine at the South end of the Chambers Street Station and above the IRT Brooklyn Bridge Station.
Don't feel bad, Wayne. I haven't been on that line since 1986, and then I didn't pay too much attention to the station itself. The M train of R-16s I was on had me riveted. The train maneuver across the old lead tracks to the Manhattan Bridge was interesting.
Maybe it's time I paid another visit to that line this fall. I may even go over the Williamsburg Bridge if it's open again by then.
As bad as Chambers St. is, the Bowery is worse.
I have to put my two cents worth in - last time I was at Bowery (about 10 months ago) I found it to be a uniformly depressing station, that is for sure, but the magnitude and severity of water leakage/damage was nowhere near that which is found at Chambers Street. There IS a leak, yes. But it is confined to one area. It may be a storm drain or small water main leak. At Chambers Street, the entire station leaks. There is an underground stream there, so I have been told, which is exacerbating the problem by eroding the concrete and steel structure surrounding the station.
At Bowery, I found much of the wall tile, both on the outer and curtain walls, to be in fairly good condition, that meaning, the white tile was relatively free of dirt and grime, the band colors and accents were distinct and the tablets and icons were legible. There were a few places where it had deteriorated, but again, this seemed to be confined to one area.
Wayne
Long, long time ago, there used to be a body of surface water in the Chambers Street area. I believe it was called Five Points then. Of course the surface was a lot lower before they filed the area in. (Which is why the graves in the Negro Burial Ground were so far down.) Could be the same water now as used to be on the surface.
Actually, Collect Pond preceded the Five Points area, it had a canal built to carry water down to the Hudson (Extra Credit: Where was the Canal?). Eventually, the lake became so polluted from all the tanneries that were built there that two hills which were beside the lake (one was at the Brooklyn Bridge approach) were cut down to fill the lake and everything became nice and flat. The Five Points area could not have coincided with the lake because the current street grid does not compensate for the lake (as it would have had the lake still been there when it was built) and Five Points was derived from the street grid. It was named after the five points created by the intersection of Worth, Baxter and Park Streets. However, because Park has since been demapped south of the intersection, it's more like Three Points and One Side. After Five Points had gone away and civic buildings took it's place, the street level managed to rise anyway. When the new courthouse was built in 1993, archaeological excavations were made under the future building of former Five Points buildings, not just the basements. There is a website about the Five Points excavation on the General Services Administration server (I find it wonderful that Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands are in the same region as New York and New Jersey).
[Actually, Collect Pond preceded the Five Points area, it had a canal built to carry water down to the Hudson (Extra Credit: Where was the Canal?).]
I am sorely tempted to say "the present course of Canal Street," but that seems a bit too far north.
It's true, although Canal Street may have been straightened or realigned is some way. The pond stretched from what is now around Foley Square all the way north almost to Canal St. Although it wasn't as wide as you went north. There was an article about streams and springs in Manhattan in the New York Times within the last year and it showed the pond, which I think was a bit too large to call a pond.
Was the Collect Pond called that because it was used to "collect" waste from various establishments? Or was it because water would "collect" there (fed by one or more streams) and then have no outlet to the sea? I thought the canal along the present Canal Street was for navigation, rather than being (in essence) a sewer line.
Another trivia question: what is the connection of the Chase Manhattan Bank logo to early waterworks in New York City?
Easy, In 1952, Chase Manhattan was formed by the merger of the then separate Chase and Manhattan banks. Chase was owned or somehow affiliated with Salmon P. Chase who is on the $10,000 bill and who put In God We Trust on our currency as Treasury Secretary during the Civil War. Manhattan bank is the successor to the Manhattan Water Company, which was a principal provider of water in the pre-croton days.
Now I never actually read about all this in a unified source, so here I could be wrong.
< Chase who is on the $10,000 bill and who put In God We Trust on our currency as Treasury Secretary >
Nitpick. I don't know whether the term currency covers both coins and paper money--I think of currency as being paper money.
At any rate, in my memory (and I'm not as old as Salmon P. Chase) only U.S. coinage had "In God We Trust." Paper money did not have the phrase until the Eisenhower Administration, when it was added.
An interesting side note is that, during the period when currency without "In God We Trust" was still seen (larger bills can be around for years) some people thought that Godless Communists had removed the phrase. A little ignorance goes a long way...
AFAIK, Currency does apply to coinage. Clearly on a related note, the "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance was added in 1954, rather poorly I might add, likely because of McCarthyism and the "Godless Communists." I think that both should be removed, since the U.S. government is separated from the church and therefore cannot trust "God." It also discriminates against those with different beliefs.
Right about the water company. The correct name was "The Manhattan Company" and it was founded by Alexander Hamilton for the ostensible purpose of providing water to New York City (at the time meaning lower Manhattan). The Company's charter incidentally provided that they could engage in "such other business" as they deemed appropriate, or some such wording. The other business was the bank ("The Bank of the Manhattan Company") which eventually merged with Chase Bank to form The Chase Manhattan Bank.
They used wooden water mains to supply water to the homes and businesses in the New York City of the early 19th century. The wooden sections of main fitted into each other with carefully carved joints. The exteriors of the mains were given an octagonal profile. The current symbol of Chase Manhattan is in fact a stylized representation of a cross-section of one of these wooden water mains. An actual example of such a main is on display in the window a plumbing shop on Westchester Ave. near Castle Hill Ave. (and the #6-line station of the same name, to bring some transit relevance back).
[I have to put my two cents worth in - last time I was at Bowery (about 10 months ago) I found it to be a uniformly depressing station, that is for sure, but the magnitude and severity of water leakage/damage was nowhere near that which is found at Chambers
Street ... At Bowery, I found much of the wall tile, both on the outer and curtain walls, to be in fairly good condition]
Another thing to keep in mind is that Chambers Street is far more heavily used than Bowery. As far as I'm concerned, that makes the deplorable condition of Chambers even more intolerable.
I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, they have let things go to such an extent that a major capital project will probably be needed to set things straight. Too bad. Chambers Street has some nice features (i.e. the bridge plaques and the now-removed hanging lamps). The absolute worst conditions are in the ceiling over the northbound trackway, platform and closed platform.
Wayne
In the event that the TA does do a major renovation of Chambers Street, is it likely that they will reconfigure the station as well, removing unused platform areas (or placing them behind new walls) and/or relocating trackways?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If Chambers is to be renovated then I think the side platforms should be sealed off, and the plaques from the current east wall moved to the new east wall and duplicated on the new west wall. Then, if possible, the express trackways should be filled in creating a VAST platform, which would be accessible with two wide staircases to both mezzanines. In addition, I heard that as part of the Foley Square reconfiguration, the two street exits at the north end are to be consolidated. Now, north of Chambers, I think that two of the tracks should be retained, and the other side removed, making all island platforms. This should be the side which has the island platform at Essex.
Maybe Chambers Street should be closed, with the Broad Street Line extended to Grand Street (as a connection to the 6th Avenue express in the short run and perhaps as part of the 2nd Avenue subway in the long run). Willie B trains would head up the 6th Avenue local.
If it were closed, the station could be covered with Graffiti, and reopened as an extention of the transit museum, with some excrement graffiti covered cars parked inside. The exhibit would show what the entire system would look like if the city and state's political leaders, and the other interests that support them (ie. the health care industry), had their way even more than they do now.
At the same time, they should build a beautiful new 2nd Avenue subway station uptown, to show how the system would look if the city's priorities were different.
YES - and the following detail items in addition:
* Retain one centre trackway at least for terminal purposes.
* Yes, remove and destroy the 1962 wall on the southbound side.
* The new walls should set back about two feet from the old platform (closed platform) edges. (the southbound outer platform is behind the 1962 wall)
* The pink marble pilasters should be incorporated into the new wall.
* The original red, tan and light blue design is retained - get the folks who did Broad and Fulton Street to recreate the design and the tablets - they did expert work there. DON'T use 4¼" white tile - use the 6" tile that is currently there.
* Demolish the old stairways and ironwork surrounding them, creating more open space.
* Reinstate the original station lighting (including the fixtures on the pillars) but use mercury lamps (NOT sodium). In the mezzanines, the round recessed fixtures in the ceilings should be refurbished and fitted with bright compact flourescent lamps.
* Keep the tiled pillars. Take the old tile off, put new tile. Put a border (the same border as on the wall) on each pillar just below the new lamps (with a diamond on each face).
AND Last but not least - before anyone picks up a trowel or a Makita tool - CALL THE PLUMBERS - get someone like Figliolia Master Plumbers in to do it. And get a team of masons and concrete wosrkers in to seal it all up. Also check the integrity of the ceiling framework, r&r if necessary. What a project!
Wayne
Isn't it true that the 1962 wall is all that separates Chambers St. from the Lexington Ave. line's Brooklyn Bridge station?
Yep, you can see the back of this wall at the very front of the uptown IRT platform.
Yes, that is so. What my proposal called for was removal of the 1962 tile facing and replacing it with a more "natural" surface, similar if not identical to that on the closed northbound platform wall. The wall sets back a foot or two from the old platform edge, which is still visible. A fine example of the original plaque, frieze and pilaster can be found where this wall ends at the south end of the station.
Wayne
I'd prefer if the edge of the platform is cut back and a wall installed in such a way as to remove unneccessary signs of the old platform, like at Brooklyn Bridge. Other thank that, I revise my original plan to keep ONE track in the center, where the current middle platform is (if possible, otherwise use track that does not contact the platform that has more boarding) allowing WIDE platforms.
I see that they sealed the easternmost exit off (replacing it with a suppy room). Why? are they moving where that island was? Now we'll have to cross the busy street to get from work to the train.
Foley Square is being redeveloped. The new square will be one instead of six plots. Centre Street will be rerouted through what is now marked as Foley Square, and Pearl will be demapped between Centre and Lafayette. This will make one wide subway entry in the center of the square.
Well I know this is a closed station, but when I take the N train at Canal street in Chinatown, at it's eastern entrance, I have to walk through a closed subway station, which is very cool and damp, and it's leaking all over, the floor is wet, and it smells like fish.
This station will again see service when the tracks on the south side of the Manhattan Bridge are reopened. It may not be ready at the same time as the tracks are, depending on how the MTA schedules things, but I have seen quite a bit of progress in the station over the past few months so I have hopes that it will be ready on time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What trains will be going over the Manhattan bridge? Will the N move back to the bridge? Would be good since the vacant station is alot closer to Chinatown!
Speculation as to when trains will return to the bridge runs rampant. No schedule has been announced yet, as far as I know - there has been lots of speculation but no hard facts, and I'm not going to fuel the rumor mill since I don't have a clue! It's a long way off yet, that's for sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What's the holdup with the repairs. You mean you can't fix a problem in 10 years? That is how long it seems the Manhattan Bridge has been closed to the Sea Beach. Is it a lack of money? Is it other priorities? Or is it just old fashioned incompetence? It really frosts me that so much time has elapsed and nothing done on the bridge or to fix an abvious wart at Stillwell Avenue. Anybody out there have any answers, I'd appreciate hearing them.
Every fix they have for the bridge fails to stop the cracking. The current estimate is that both sides will be fixed in 2003, although construction (but not painting) on the H tracks seems pretty well along. I for one believe the cracking will continue after the "fix" is completed.
Part of the problem with the Manhattan Bridge is the way it was designed, with the subway tracks along its sides instead of being in the center. The constant flexing of the span caused by the trains has taken its toll.
They should have put in the DeKalb-Rutgers tunnel connection a long time ago, not to mention tying the Chrystie St. connection into the Nassau loop in the other direction.
If I were a betting man, I'd say the Q will end up on the south side tracks and possibly the N. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it, so to speak.
The fishy stench you notice could be a combination of garbage rotting on the trackways and mould forming where the water leaks through.
Wayne
Could be all the fishy water from the fish markets on Canal street?
I never thought of that! Could be if there's a broken storm drain somewhere and the fishmongers dump their fishy-smelling melted ice water down it. That certainly would explain it.
Wayne
[The fishy stench you notice could be a combination of garbage rotting on the trackways and mould forming where the water leaks through.]
I also hear that another old fountain by [Jacob Wrey] Mould will be placed in City Hall Park when that's finished.
I had to put this somewhere
Under my plan, the Stillwell ramps are removed and replaced with escalators and elevators. I don't know how the space works out, but the escalators would begin where the stairs are, and the sloped floor to the turnstiles would be levelled (lowered to the level of the entrance) elevator patrons would walk around the stairs like the rampers today and would stay on level ground until it ends at the elevator to the platform. Of course, the B platform needs only an escalator because it already has an elevator. At the N platform, the setup could be a mirror image of the B. The above setup is for the D/F platforms.
So long as there is no Coney Island revival coming in the near future, escalators would work. The ramps were originally put in to handle the huge weekend beach crowds during the summer, along with those going to Steeplechase and Luna parks.
The rebuilding of Stillwel Ave was (is?) scheduled to begin late 1999 or early 2000. The changes will be primarily 'operations based' and secondarilly will include amenities upgrades. The most significant part of renovation will involve narrowing and shifting of the 4 platforms to permit the installation of a 9th track. The 9th track will be necessary to provide Q trains direct access to Brighton Beach Station from Stillwell yard once the 63rd St. connection opens. However, the drawings I have seen involve much glass and tile and will likely become another showplace.
Could someone please confirm that the MC that comes out of the MVM (MetroCard Vendening Machine) has a batch number that starts with a "T" (as seen on the back in upper right corner) ?
In addition my Cubic engineering source swears that the plastic coated paper "Triplex" MC are NOT comming out of those machines. Interestingly when my staff does a yard survey we find one or two liquadated ones in the "Capture Bin", so how are they getting into the system ?
Opps, that's two questions :-) ... Mr t
Having used the machines on several occasions, I can say (looking at my last card, which just ran out today) No 'T' I got a regular card, but I don't know about the single-ride cards.
-Hank
Speaking of which....are the MVMs anywhere besides 59th St yet??
Jay Street and Bowling green have them also
59 Street Columbus Circle and 68 Street Hunter College had them originally. now, Bowling Green and Jay Street have them. I enjoy going to Bowling Green and buying Metrocards in Chinese.
77th Street on the Lex
No, it's 68 not 77.
Yes. It's 77th Street. Go see for yourself. I was there today. I wouldn't know if 68th Street has them too.
68th does have them, I've seen the ads and I've been there. So this means that the MVMs are at Jay Street, Bowling Green, Columbus Circle, 68/Lex, 77/Lex and 179/Jamaica (I was there recently, finished riding all the subway lines). Any more? Where will the be at the WTC station and when (if not already, I never have the time to go the extra block and check).
They made a point of moving the WTC token/change booth to the side, I would think they would put it in that spot.....
From where the electrical equipment is, I would say they are going to put in 5 or 6 machines, agaist both walls by the concourse entryway at WTC.
-Hank
Add Rockefeller Center to the list now at: http://home.earthlink.net/~onlyjoex. It will only be accessible to frames capable browsers at first.
47th-50th IND.
Are you sure? If you are right, I'll find out tomorrow.
Hank, The "Single Ride" is a paper/mag card, just like the 'blue' Transfer, except they're a green card. So, it looks my Cubic/Engineer source was right, i.e. regular plastic MCs are comming out of the MVM machines.
That still leaves the question of where are the plastic coated paper (Triplex) cards comming from ... they're being issued somewhere because folks are using them on our fleet (s/n are #01955..., #02042..., #2044...., expireation 6/00 & 7/00). Just curious.
Mr t__:^)
One place that coated-paper Metrocards are being sold is at ATMs. I got one at the Republic National Bank branch at Bay Plaza in Co-op City. $15.00 cards only, you can get either one or two at a time.
I never had any problems swiping or dipping the paper Metrocard. It looks identical to the plastic cards, you need to feel the surface of the card to tell that it is not quite as glossy and is in fact paper or cardboard.
I am looking at it now and now, there is no "T" in the serial number, just a number. The one difference in the printing is that the paper card does not say "Please refill and continue to use this card until the expiration date." The plastic cards all have that sentence on them. Perhaps the bus fareboxes are programmed to capture zero-balance paper Metrocards if/when they are used for transfers?
Dan, Thanks for identifing one place where they are sold !!!
RE: "... paper card does not say "Please refill and continue to use
this card until the expiration date."
The plastic coated paper card isn't as durable as the plastic version, i.e. bend it once and it's toast. I've been told the standard plastic one has a max re-fill limit & a max dip limit, but never had anyone say they reached either. The plastic coated paper version may have lower limits. I'll ask now that I know they're still being issued (thought it was another one of the TA tests ... this is the third one of these cards).
RE: "Perhaps the bus fareboxes are programmed to capture zero-balance paper Metrocards if/when they are used for transfers?"
No I don't think so. The only way our bus farebox "captures" expired/liquidated cards is if the driver shoves it in there because the customer gives it to him/her. (BTW the farebox occasionaly does eat cards due to errors)
Mr t__:^)
[I've been told the standard plastic one has a max re-fill limit & a max dip limit, but never had anyone say they reached either. The plastic coated paper version may have lower limits. I'll ask ...]
I'm going to answer my own question:
My TA-AFC source said they were "dicouraging the re-filling of the Triplex (paper/plastic) MCs". I asked HOW are you "discouraging the re-filling". He corrected himeself ... they're not encouraging it.
But he also said that there wasn't anything built into the card to restrict the re-fills more then the standard MC(I think it's max $163, five re-fills and 126 dips, but he wouldn't confirm this).
However, let me repeat my own "discouragement" ... I suggest you use it once & discard it because it's not very durable !
Mr t__:^)
Hi, Thurston.
I am certain there is no "dip-limit" except for the actual expiration date on the MCs. I think I told you about my Yankee MC that I had used for nearly two months, filling it each week with $15. I never got an error message or anything.
But it would be interesting to hear if someone's card got rejected after a few months worth of "dipping".
BTW, I have since retired that card for the NYCT-related "stations" card (just bought it at the TA Museum last week putting my "wheels" card into the collection folder).
Doug aka BMTman
Last summer, when I used a regular MC, I had the same one all summer.
Sounds like you and Doug have proved that the card DOESN'T have a 5 re-fill 126 dip limit on it. Thanks for the input !
Mr t__:^)
Hi, Thurston.
I almost forgot to get back to you regarding that planned Far Rock/Oceanside Nathan's trip.
If it is going to be an after-work thing, I would obviously not be with my bike and would meet up with you guys at Jay Street. However, if it's to be a weekend tour then I would have the bike with me and would most likely meet up with the gang at the Broadway-East New York stop of the A. Just wanted to clarify this.
Doug aka BMTman
They should use those for the unlimited passes, which can't be refilled. (hate the waste of the all plastic card.) But would they last a month?
Maybe they should just switch to the "triplex", since from what I see, people seem to just throw the cards away when finished, anyway.
The TA (oops, MTA) should have a MetroCard Recycling Program. Collect 100 used MetroCards, and trade them in for $1 off a MetroCard of $15 or higher in value. To ensure there is no undue load on Station Agents, there could be a few special redemption centers equiped with sensitive scales or automatic counters like the banks use. I'll bet you'd stop seeing "dead" cards on the ground in a hurry!
It would also discourage riders from refilling their MetroCards. And by the time the full 100 are redeemed, most will have already expired.
Well, the encoding shop could just make them good for two years vs. one (it's just a date they punch in).
Mr t__:^)
We should allow refills of unlimited cards like on the RFM, then extra bonuses would be provided for refilling as opposed to discarding. 15% refill bonus (buy 20 rides, get 3 free). Maybe $15 for new cards costing over $60 to be fair. For every 5 day passes you put on a card, you get another, free. For weekly passes, refills cost only $15.00. What do you all think?
Three free rides to save a four cent card ... I don't think so.
How about a free entry when you re-fill a MC ? This way you won't get the homeless or other folks digging in garbich or breaking open the bins next to the Readers to get a bunch of cards, then filling & selling them. If the re-filler has to "turn the wheel", then just customers would take advantage of this.
Mr t__:^)
Unlike many of you here who have long-past memories of the subways, I didn't really ride them very much until the 9th grade, when I commuted from Canarsie to Hunter High school every day.
Unfortunately, I wasn't as observant of the equipment as I could have been, and I don't remember exactly what kind of stuff I usually rode.
What I do remember is this: Firstly, I think it was during the R40M/R42 GOH, because I do remember when these trains came back from GOH, and looked like they were almost new. I remembered the easiest way to tell if I was on one of these "new" trains, was the aluminum (or stainless) ring around the windows on the doors, as opposed to the unprotected rubber on the older cars.
I also remembered, that occasionally we'd get a _really_ old train. It was drastically different from the others, and looking at pictures, I think that I was riding on a R-10.
Does anyone know what the fleet used on the Canarsie line back then looked like? If the R10's went out in 1990, then it is certainly possible that some were used there. I don't think I was on too many R16's, although they should have still been around.
The last R10s went out in October of 1989. Don't think any were assigned to Eastern Division. Perhaps you were riding on an R27/R30 car. It would have had grey paint, with possible graffitti.
R16 were gone by 1985, replaced by R68.
Wayne
Actually, the R16 was retired in 1987. The only logical choice to match what Steve saw was a pre-overhaul R30, which were in pretty bad condition then.
What ever happened to the R11? The train that closely resembles the R32 and R38.
The R-11s were built by Budd in 1949. Only ten were built. When the R-32s were purchased, the R-11s were overhauled to MU with all other SMEE trains & re-designated at R-34s. They ended their days on the Franklin Shuttle.
Trivia Question: When first built, they were referred to million dollar train. After they were modified, what were they referred to as?
'Waste of a million dollars'
-Hank :)
The Million Dollar Mistake?
Orphans. A 400-car order was in the works, and would have become reality had the 2nd Ave. line been built.
Fortunately for those who want to look at an R11/R34, #8013 still exists on display at the NYC Transit museum.
The status of the other nine cars is in question. Some were sold, the others not sold were sent to the scrap heap.
#8016 qualifies as wrecked due to an accident in the yard. One end got pretty badly beaten up as a result. There's a picture of it somewhere on the NYC Subway Resources site.
Wayne
I believe all of the R-11s were scrapped except for 8013. Among other things, they had a gizmo known as a "precipitron". It consisted of two ultraviolet lights, one at each end of the car. The idea was to sterilize the air to prevent the spread of disease in the subway, seeing as how they were built before the days of the Salk polio vaccine. When it was discovered that the air wasn't the only thing being sterilized, they were removed.
Yeah, I think they were called 'Germicidal Lamps' in the original Budd brochures when the R-11s were delivered.
Didn't the R-11s also have an automotive-like braking system (I'm going from memory here -- drum brakes or something, that were later removed?)
The trucks of the R-11 were very distinctive and different than most other R-types -- they looked like standard rail-car trucks of the passenger coach class.
The original R-11 had disc brakes. In at least one picture in the "illustrated roster" section, the caliper is quite visible.
I've heard those brakes were failure-prone, and that a solid train of R-11s would overshoot stations. I also heard that after the R-34 rebuild, the R-11s were typically coupled with different cars in a consist.
Were their brakes considered SMEE?
According to my "Record Drawings" book, the brake system was WABCO SMEE with a ME42 brake valve.
There is a photo in the car section of a train of R-10s on the Canarsie. This photo was taken at 8th Ave., and both bulkhead curtains on the last car are blank. The R-10s had air-operated doors and external door controls, so if you recall hearing a "tddk-kssss" sound just before the doors opened, that's what you were riding on. They also had clerestory-style roofs, which did give them a distinctive look. They were great cars, and will forever be synonimous with the A line.
The R-16s were used on the Canarsie as well over the years, even back when number markings were still in vogue. Check out the photo of #6309 at 8th Ave. signed up as a 16 in July of 1967. The R-16s didn't take a liking to severe weather. Whenever a blizzard would be bearing down on Brooklyn, the R-16s would be sent to the Canarsie line and BMT standards would take over on the Myrtle Ave. and Jamaica lines. The R-16s came back to the Canarsie once again in the late 70s for a time.
I was a regular Canarsie passenger on Saturdays from 1967 to 1970. The BMT standards were the only rolling stock I ever saw and rode on until early 1969, when most of the R-7s and all of the R-9s were transferred to the Eastern Division. That spring, there was a mix of equipment; I just missed an R-7/9 LL train at Lorimer St. one Saturday afternoon, and the next train to arrive consisted of BMT standards. By the fall of 1969, the standards were gone and the R-7/9s had taken over, with a handful of R-42s also running on the line.
The Canarsie line still ranks as one of my more heavily-patronized routes over the years, even though I haven't ridden on it since June 6, 1970, except for a one-stop hop in Manhattan in October of 1984.
From 12 Midnight Sunday (Saturday night) till 2am Monday:
E--Runs on R line from Whitehall and Jamaica Center.
F--Northbound runs normal
Southbound runs on the G Line to COney Island(Normal after Bergen.)
Sixth Avenue Shuttle from 42/6th to Church Ave SOUTHBOUND ONLY.
R-- NO R TRAIN. SHuttle train from 36/4th to 95/4th in Brooklyn.
Stations closed: SOUTBOUND PLATFORMS-23/Ely, Lexington Ave, 5th Ave(53rd).
World Trade Center (E Platform), 50/8th lower Level, 7th ave(E Platform).
As far as Lenox goes- shuttle bus available from 135 to 148 or use M7, or M102. 145 and 148 will be closed.
Wonderful! And I bet they forgot to tell the customers again, right? This thing has been running for the last two Sundays with nary a notice to be seen, no written notes on the token booth whiteboards, NO BLEEPING NFORMATION WHATSOEVER. You know what its like telling hundreds of people individually about service changes, or the while having Control asking stupid questions like "Where'd you lose your time?"?
Does this mean you will not be able to get to Jay St in Brooklyn on the F line from 179th-Jamaica this weekend?
More importantly, if I took the F from Brooklyn to Manhattan this weekend, does this mean I would be unable to get back? And what will be running on the southbound 6th Ave local track?
I guess I'd have to take a northbound train to Queens, then turn around and take the G.
Depending on where in Manhattan you want to go, you would have southbound service from 42nd St-6 Avenue to Church Avenue. If your "F" destination were north of 42nd Street (i.e. 47-50, 5 Ave, Lexington), you could take a northbound "F" to Lexington, get on the #6 and go down to GCT, then back to 5th Avenue-42nd Street.
You could always walk if it's a nice day, or take a cab or bus to 42nd-6th Avenue.
Wayne
You missed the point! Take the E train running on the R l;ine to 34th street/6th avenue- Then follow the signs to the F. There is an F Shuttle train running from 42/6th to Church Avenue Brooklyn running via the F tracks.
I work at 23rd/8th. There are signs at my station and I've been screaming ym head off regarding the G.O. but people are dumb- they ignore the message-They even tear down the red tape when we tape off a section.
Yes with Lenox Ave service interuption there are NO NOTICES saying 96 street will be the last stop for every other no.2 train and all No.3 trains.
This should (and hopefully) be the last weekend for this particular project. I noticed that roadbed was being resurfaced in the Manhattan bound 53rd St tube to remove a bump on the upgrade. (The best way I can describe it!) This weekend eventhough the service plan is the same as the previous two, in actuality the F to Queens will wrong-rail in the tube. In other words the Queens bound F will use the Manhattan bound tube. Most people won't even notice it because the trains will be at Lex and 23/Ely on the Queens bound tracks in those stations
Thanks BIll! Nice to know there's some intelligent life down here. Scotty, beam me up! there's not much intelligent life here :-)
ps- this is my last post. I have spoke to Peggy and her contributions will continue for the site.
Why are you stopping? For the same reasons as D. Rosenthal? I would like to know.
By the way, I think I saw you putting the plastic tape at 23/8 last Mon. PM. I was passing by on the express. I really can't believe the passengers rip it down judging by the way you put it up! There should be no doubt as to no service since you wrap it around so thickly, but still some passengers still don't get it. Regretfully, that tape and service notices are just decoration to them.
After I posted this, did I read you are no longer posting on SubTalk? I think you are a real asset here. Please reconsider.
I'm sure you're a bright guy, but don't kid yourself. Being a train operator probably isn't what you think it is. I'm sure a lot of them would tell you to think long and hard before deciding on it. I think that you've glamourized it instead of seeing it for what it is, which is a demanding, thankless job. Good luck to you. Salvatore.
Does anyone know the extent and accessibility of the remains of the Bronx portion of the Polo Grounds Shuttle: the Sedgewick Ave. and Jerome-Anderson Aves. stations and the short tunnel between them? You are supposed to be able to see the remains of the outside portion of the Jerome-Anderson Aves. station from a building above (through the rear windows in a ground floor laundrymat). I’ve been told you can get into the tunnel from one end – a hole has been made in the wall (is this at Sedgewick Ave.?) Has anyone entered it, and if so, are there any station remains visible inside at either end or anything else such as impressions of ties in the former roadbed, third rail brackets, etc. Thanks.
The turnoff from the Jerome Ave. line south of 167th Street still exists. The last time I saw it (1989/90) there were still wooden track ties remaining, the rails haveing been removed.
The section between River Avenue and the Jerome-Anderson Ave. station, although closed in 1958, remained standing until 1962 or '63. Even some of the signs on the station were in place. I never heard the reason for the delay in demolishing the trestle.
Glad to see others interested in any remnants of the Polo Grounds shuttle. I too would be interested in knowing ANYTHING concerning what remains and if anyone has been into the tunnel and how.
Heard that from the footbridge at the end of 161 ST> up on the hill, the footbridge that goes over the Deegan gives you a view of some remaining platforms of the Sedgwick Ave stop.
Any new info, photos etc appreciated.
MIke H
People who live near the Montauk Branch trackage were saying on the news that the whistle on the new trains are too loud. I disagree. I live 1/8 of a mile from the train station and I hear the train whistle very clearly. To me, the whistle is no louder than the Dash 2's or the power cars. Any thoughts, gentlemen?
[People who live near the Montauk Branch trackage were saying on the news that the whistle on the new trains are too loud. I disagree. I live 1/8 of a mile from the train station and I hear the train
whistle very clearly. To me, the whistle is no louder than the Dash 2's or the power cars. Any thoughts, gentlemen?]
As loud as it may be, the sound of a whistle is infinitely preferable to the sound of a car being crushed by a speeding train.
It's loud but people will aways risk killing themselves in order to save a few minutes.
A few minutes? They are stupid enough to try and save ten seconds that it takes a train to speed through a crossing!
Where are the grade crossings on the Montaulk Branch and at what speed do the trains go through them?
Once you leave Babylon, the first crossing is at Higbie Lane in West Islip, at the east end of Babylon Yard. Then you have Windsor Avenue in Brightwaters. Then you have a LOAD of crossings, for about two miles, in Bay Shore -- most are a block apart and some trains go through there at 65 miles an hour nonstop. Bay Shore's not the place to live if you dislike railroad air horns....
There's crossings the rest of the way to Montauk -- plenty of them a block apart in Patchogue, too.
The horns are the same Airchime K5LA's that were on most of the GP38-2's in later years. What might make them perceived to be louder is that instead of a handles to regulate the flow of air to the horn, it's now a solenoid-controlled valve under the horn, and when the engineer presses the horn button in the cab, that valve opens fully and immediately letting full reservoir pressure into the horn immediately.
So that means that the locomotive engineer can't really modulate the sound of the horn; he can't make it sound softer. Most of the newer diesels; passenger and freight, have a horn button instead of a handle. The lesson here is don't live near train tracks UNLESS you can tolerate trains passing by at all hours of the night or if you're a rail buff. I used to live near the J line elevated trackage in Queens, so noise from passing trains don't bother me.
In the NY Post Saturday July 24, page 14, is a article that Grand Central terminal after three years of botched planning and delays, Metro-North will finally open four new entrances to Grand Central terminal that could shave 15 minutes off the walk to work for some commuters.
After you read the article your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Is it in the online edition anywhere? I couldn't find it.
Until next time....
Anon_e_mouse
In my experience the best air conditioning I've ever experienced was in the R32s they were using on the E last summer. Those things were iceboxes.
I've noticed a lot of R46s (I think that's the number), especially the ones on the F line, are a bit warm in the summer.
The R42 cars (esp. the NYCT GOH ones) are kind of warm as well.
R38 cars have good A/C. So do Slant R40.
R44 cars are hit and miss - sometimes you get a good one, sometimes not. Same with R62.
Redbirds we were on Wednesday were also hit and miss, but due to their ages, you have to cut them some slack. Plus they're retrofits.
R62A cars were nice and cool.
I also noticed that R68A cars seem to be cooler than regular R68s.
Wayne
I don't think that it's fair to cut slack to the Redbirds for their A/C because they are retrofits, the R-38s and most R-40 units are retrofits and apparently, they work well.
Well, it depends on how much work was done on the AC units on the Redbirds when they were rehabed -- the R-29/33/36s were refitted for AC beginning 21 years ago, the R-27s a little later -- and if those units weren't upgraded along with the rest of the car in the 80s, they certainly would be showing their age by now.
Well I admit I may have phrased that response incorrectly - the R32, R38, and first 200 R40 didn't have A/C. They were essentially gut rehabilitations. The IRT cars have a different kind of A/C retrofit than the B Division retrofits, and sometimes it doesn't work quite as well.
Wayne
You forgot to mention that the last 10 R-38s were air conditioned.
I find the R42s, at least the ones on the Q, to be the most consistently cold cars. But, as you point out, most cars are just hit or miss.
Lately the R-68A's appear to be the coldest. I was on one (5198) which was on the B line, Which was so cold people were running to the next car!!!
The MCIs. So cold, that FROST forms on the lower edge of the windows.
-Hank :)
(Yeah, they're buses)
At least the AC works.
Where is the unit located? What is the advantages of a roof mounted unit? Some say it's better.
On all current NYCT cars (excluding the R-110s) the A/C is not unitized. The condenser unit (compressor, compressor motor, etc) is mounted under the car. On B division cars, there are two units with capacities of roughly 9 tons each (Ton = 12,000 BTU).
The evaporators including the cooling surfaces, blowers, expansion valves etc. are located in the ceiling at either end of the car. They feed common ductways towards the middle of the car. Since warm air is returned through the car ends, the car is always coolest between the 1st and 2nd doorways on either side of the car and warmest at the ends. the middle of the car gets what's left.
The controls are located inside the car and under the car. Having components throughout the car makes for difficult troubleshooting and repairs.
Is THE A/C on the R-143s going to be unitized? doesn't this make the car noiser inside, unless they use scroll compressors? If it's a unitized thing - I'm assuming when the A/C dies, they just swap units - how long would that take?
The R-142 and 143s will have Unitized A/C using AC motors and inverters. Heavy insulation will keep them guiet. Yes, when the unit ceases to funcytion, it'll be lifted out throughthe roof of the car. I dont know how long it'll take to replace a unit but it should be 2-4 hours at most.
Don't you mean Ton-Miles or Ton-Feet or Ton-Furlongs? Those (while strange as opposed to Pound-Feet) are units of energy and can be converted to BTUs, Calories, Joules and Kilowatt Hours.
The coolest cars I've been on this summer are the R68's. However, the AC has been off this year. I've been on more "hot cars" this year than in previous years. Especially the Redbirds ...
I am not taking the 7 anymore, the A/C really sucks in there. I'd rather take an E or an F. I took the E yesterday and I found the ride to be alot smoother, the A/C on the train much cooler than the 7, and more speed. The E is a true express, as it races through the tunnel ith hardly any stops. I like the whole Queens Blvd IND line alot better, it's newer, and it's East River tunnels look a lot nicer than those aging Steinways.
I live in a hot apartment, make that a hot rickety apartment. I don't need to be riding old rickety trains with poor A/C on the 7, when I can get a much more comfortable ride on the E or F with newer, faster trains.
As part of the E team, we appreciate your sentiments! True the #7 cars are not that good when it comes to a/c, but please remember, it has been soooo hot out and with that blazing hot sun shining on those windows, roof's and car bodies....well that a/c is working a lot harder. If we had that sun shining on our windows, our cars wouldn't be as cool!
If an E arrived before an F, I would wait for the F.
The R-32s and the R-46 both have two 9 ton A/C units per car (216,000 BTU). However, the air temp coming from the evaporator of an R-32 ranges between 52 & 54 degrees F. On the R-46, it runs about 8-10 derees warmer. Obviously, your observations have been confirmed by testing. One thought is that the R-46 has a more significantly greater volume of air to cool. Other thoughts are that the A/C units on the R-32 are newer as is the insulation (since these units and insul. were added in 1988 whereas the R-46 has the same units for the last 25 years. It is being looked into by engineering and is being given their usual high priority (YAWN).
Weren't the AC's replaced during rebuilding even in cars that were air conditioned before rebuilding? AC's in different cars (as well as the buses) give off distinct smells, and on the R-44's and 46's, it is different than before rebuilding. I miss the old smells of those cars, but the R-62A's are nice, and haven't faded away in these past 14 years of service.
I'll also vote for the R-32's.
I think it's tough to say which model car has the best/worst air conditioning. Individual cars of the same model do vary. I have noticed by memorization every summer over the years that certain car #'s seem to go in and out of the yard quite often as repeaters on air conditioning malfunctions. Especially the CI rebuilt R42's. The most frustrating part is when one side blows hot and the other blows cold. Sometimes simply shutting off the hot end will make the car bearable, but that only overtaxes the cold end. I don't know if this still holds true, but before rebuilding, the R44's tended to have uneven a/c distribution. Stand in one spot and you get gushed with cold air. Move 2 feet way and nothing.
A few weeks ago I boarded a train on the Port Washington Branch in which I had to walk through THREE cars to find an air conditioned car, and that one wasn't that cold.
I asked the conductor about it and he said "that's nothing--we ran one out of Penn yesterday that had NO air conditioned cars in it!"
Besides the health risks that may come with sitting in crowded 95+ degree cars with virtually no ventilation, why does the LIRR insist on running trains with insufficient AC? Do they have an equipment shortage?
No, they just have crap upkeep. Their MUs are falling apart, their NEW diesels are falling apart, the stations are junk, and the trackwork is often covered with trash and in bad shape. I once heard an LIRR employee claim the LIRR had the best track of any commuter RR in the US. I had a hard time trying to stop laughing. The track is almost as bad a Septa, esp between Hicksville and Jamacia. Their excuses for all these problems (We're the largest commuter RR in the US) are lame, esp given the NYCTA runs a MUCH larger, probbly more complicated operation - and has been consistantly getting better over the last 20 years.
I'm not sure why the LIRR can't get it's act together - is it management? The unions? The MTA? How come Metro-North does much better - they're almost as big. I've effectively given up taking the LIRR. I used to go a lot into the city on weekend - you can bet the next time I do, I'm taking the N21 to Flushing. The LIRR's poor service is simply not worth my time, effort, money, or frustration anymore....
The LIRR also keeps their diesel both new and old idling all the
time. Any reason for that? Theat wears the engine and causes a lot of problems. Maybe if they shut it down, the engineers won't know how to start them again.
[ The LIRR also keeps their diesel both new and old idling all the
time. Any reason for that? Theat wears the engine and causes a lot of
problems. Maybe if they shut it down, the engineers won't know how to
start them again. ]
In the winter, you _need_ to keep the engines running, or else the coolant (water) will freeze, and the engines will crack into pieces. Shutting down an engine then becomes a long process involving draining the whole coolant system, etc.
There are devices nowadays that will heat and circulate coolant, for medium-term storage of locomotives in cold weather.
However, it's still somewhat complicated to stop and start the locomotives, at least, it's not like a car, where you just turn a key one way for on (and start), and the other for off.
The DE30's, however, may be easier to start/stop. Certainly, if they're shutting the DM30's down going into Penn, the startup/shutdown should be easier.
[I'm not sure why the LIRR can't get it's act together - is it management? The unions? The MTA? How come Metro-North does much better - they're almost as big.]
All of those are factors, but as far as I'm concerned one of the major reasons is the LIRR's monopoly. Most Long Islanders have no other way of commuting into Manhattan. Bus/subway combinations, like the one to which you referred, aren't possible for most of them.
Of course, Metro North also has a monopoly (though it might face a bit more competition from express buses). It fortunately hasn't neglected customer service as egregiously as the LIRR.
I heard on the news that the NYC subways have fewer delays than the LIRR! Now that's just plain disgraceful as far as the LIRR is concerned. Anyone care to comment?
Good reason why NYCT employees and supervisors should be justly rewarded for their contributions at contract time!
I don't know about supervisors. Let me think about that one.
A/C is a question of philosophy. While the NYCT views A/C as a necessity, the LIRR views it as one of the ammenities. If there is a hot car on one of my lines, & I know about it, it will be removed from service within 24 hours and repaired. The LIRR does not seem to have that sense of urgency.
Perhaps one reason is that the M or E at the LIRR is run by retired TA people looking to do nothing more than 'double dip' their pensions.
Well, as I mentioned previously, on the LIRR A/C is NOT an amenity on an airtight 95-degree car, it is a necessity. And, to run a train of all hot cars is not just an inconvenience, it presents a danger to the public.
[Well, as I mentioned previously, on the LIRR A/C is NOT an amenity on an airtight 95-degree car, it is a necessity. And, to run a train of all hot cars is not just an inconvenience, it presents a danger to the public.]
It's a danger in more ways than one. If there are two (or more) hot cars on a crowded rush hour train, people will jam themselves into the other, cooler cars. As rush hour trains are SRO on some lines even under normal conditions, there will be many standees in the cooler cars. Some of them will have to squeeze into the aisles because the vestibules can accomodate only so many people. Unlike subway cars, with their straps or grab bars, there isn't much to hold onto in train car aisles. Should there be even a low-speed derailment/collision/emergency stop, people will go flying.
[ Unlike subway cars,
with their straps or grab bars, there isn't much to hold onto in train
car aisles. Should there be even a low-speed
derailment/collision/emergency stop, people will go flying. ]
The metropolitans have handholds in the aisles, next to the seats. About as effective as straps and bars on the subways are. The safety difference, I believe, is due more to the higher speeds (up to 80) on the LIRR, as opposed to the (normally up to about 40) on the subways.
On the other hand, while in the past they had cars with no A/C, they _did_ have adequate ventilation. The current cars are sealed like submarines. The subways and Metro-North both have windows that open for the (much rarer) car with inoperative A/C.
Do the other area roads (Path, NJT, etc) have windows that open?
[[Unlike subway cars, with their straps or grab bars, there isn't much to hold onto in train car aisles. Should there be even a low-speed
derailment/collision/emergency stop, people will go flying.]
[The metropolitans have handholds in the aisles, next to the seats. About as effective as straps and bars on the subways are. The safety difference, I believe, is due more to the higher speeds (up to 80) on the LIRR, as opposed to the (normally up to about 40) on the subways.]
Those handholds aren't nearly as effective as subway straps and bars. They're located at about waist level for most people, which makes it harder to get a strong, balance-retaining grip. Subway straps and bars have a much better location for these purposes.
>Do the other area roads (Path, NJT, etc) have windows that open?
NJT sure doesn't. THey fell for the same line tat te LIRR and lots of others did - that A/C elimanated the need for windows that opened. Of course, that assumes the A/c is 100% reliable - which it isn't. I know my college has a few buildings like that too - no openable windows, black, flat roofs. The top floors of them are unbearable to the point where we've considered busting out windows for ventalation.
Of course, the people who thought up these buildings / trains never stopped to realize what happens when the A/C breaks, after all, we all know A/C is 100% reliable, and we don't need old fashinioned windows that open, because we live in the modern age. (note the heavy sacrasm)
Actually in some cases it is an absolute abomination. Today I was in 'hot car' #4010. This car is in warranty and should have been out of service, holding Kawasaki personnel's feet to the fire to fix it. If the LIRR is lax with it's pursuit of warranty claims, we may live with a fleet of lemons for the next 40 years.
[ Actually in some cases it is an absolute abomination. Today I was in
'hot car' #4010. This car is in warranty and should have been out of
service, holding Kawasaki personnel's feet to the fire to fix it. If
the LIRR is lax with it's pursuit of warranty claims, we may live with
a fleet of lemons for the next 40 years. ]
I would describe the motivation a little differently -- perhaps in their minds, it's not being lax, it's just holding Kawasaki up to the high standards of the LIRR maintenance programs.
BTW: What line were you on with #4010? I actually got a set of bilevels on my usual train this morning, #509.
This is not at you personally, but I can't understand why passengers ask conductors & other train service personell as to why air conditioning is off! Don't y'all think if it worked it would be on! Do you think the crew likes it hot? They are probably on that train longer than you! And that goes for the subways as well! If all the non functioning air conditioned cars were taken out of service on the LIRR, you'd have an inordinate number of short trains and cancellations!
Bill, I'm amazed at your hostility here. Who am I going to ask about the air conditioning if not the conductor? You sound like that Dana Carvey character on SNL a few years ago. "When I was your age we not only had no air conditioners on the trains, the passengers had to take turns shoveling coal on the fire! It was 160 degrees on the trains and we liked it!"
Let me restate: It's not only inconvenient, it's downright dangerous to run trains with three or four hot cars, as I experienced that day, or ALL hot cars, which is what the conductor mentioned rolled out of Penn the day before.
The point is the conductor is not a mechanic. He is as hot as you! His job is to report the defects. He is not trained to repair them!
<<>>
I don't recall asking him to fix the air conditioning .
This morning I observed a work train traversing the new tracks near the Marcy Ave. Station. I suppose this means that the project is rapidly nearing completion date.When will the Picks (Rapid & Surface) be held?
The B Division Pick commenced on 7/12, with a projected implementation date of 10/3.
Hey anonymous i was there today and took some pictures of workcars and the bridge look almost done. Look like they ready to open maybe on Labor Day. The Bridge look great better than before.
I read and article (I don't recall the magazine) and it discused Amtraks plans to renovate there whole AEM-7 fleet once they have Acela up and running. According to the article the AEMs are going to be stripped till all that is left is the car body, then there suppose to get modern traction systems, brakes, and new signal systems so it would be compatible with the system planned for the Acela trainsets. I have 4 questions:
1. Has anyone else seen this article or anything simmilar to it? I really hope to read it again.
2. Are the present AEM-7 able to run on 25kv? Mainly because the lines past New Haven going to Boston are going to run on that voltage.
3. Will this renovation make one AEM-7 able to pull a 11 car train? Presently Amtrak uses either one E-60 or 2 AEM-7 coupled.
4. Is this more economical to renovate the AEM-7, than to say buy new electric locos based on the ALP car frame? (I know the ALP is the offspring of the AEM design)
Thanks in advance
AJ
I'm glad to hear they aren't getting rid of them entirely or at least selling them to other railroads(which I wouldn't have minded as much).
Can the AEM-7s only run in the NE? I don't know of any other electrified railroads in the country other than regional transit systems.
Sadly, catenary based RR's in the US are rare. There are a few dedicated(conveyor belt like) operations--for instance the Back Mesa & Lake Powell @ 4 corners. This ios a mine to generating station private operation with the freight predecessors of the E60's.
Unfortunately the one time wide use of freight motors on the PRR and to a lesser extent the New Haven gave way to diesels for complex reasons. Several other mainline electic operations which seemed viable in the 50's also dissapeared--to diesels or in the case of the Milwaukee Rd. entirely. UP did some research on electrifying the Wyoming racetrack but never went beyond studies. Some years ago a private study was produced showing that the then entire UP could be electrified with wind generation from the Wyoming mainline. Nothing has come of this partially IMHO because as long as US troops are in Saudi Arabia diesel fuel will bve underpriced making investment in electric traction unlikely.
<< Sadly, catenary based RR's in the US are rare. >>
Metra Electric South Shore is catenary, IIRC.
Right you are the Chicago South Shore & South Bend is over head as is the Metra(former Illinois Central) Electric. BUT both are strictly MU passenger operations whereas the CSS&SB at one time used electrics for its freight business both a bunch of exNY Central units originally built for GCT to Harmon service AND three glorious Little Joes--the second prettiest electric motor ever built IMHO(GG1's are #1). These monsters hauled long strings of freight between Kensington & South Bend. Sadly they have been replaced with EMD diesels.
I can answer some of your questions.
1. The July issue of Railpace magazine has an article about the current status of AEM7s.
2. The current AEM7 fleet can run on 25KV canatery. The current fleet already has devices to adjust to the 25KV canatery.
3. A locomotive has to be heavy enough to haul an eleven-car train with a single one. Even if AEM7s are renovated, because of its compact frame and light weight (only 82 tons!), I think it is risky to let a single renovated AEM7 haul an eleven-car train with peak speed at 110 miles per hour.
4. Sorry, I don't really have an answer.
Hopefully these answers help.
Chaohwa
About the fourth question, Because AEM7s are always reliable, renovating an AEM7 is always cheaper than buying an ALP44.
Chaohwa
When the Franklin Shuttle work is completed, will any trains operate thru the S-curve to Brighton S/B tracks? I first rode the shuttle in June or August 1985, and noticed the sharp curves. For some reason that particular train used the curve into the S/B Prospect Park local track, instead of switching to the N/B. (Why was that?) This was before I knew about the 1918 BRT crash, and I wasn't looking out the front window.
I've always thought that the shuttle should run local at least as far as Brighton, with the D/Q running express.
I suspect that service would be very limited, if any, because the length of the new shuttle platforms limit train size to two cars now.
There was occasional service to Coney Island when I was a child in the early 1960's. But, even in the late 1960's and early 70's, the Franklin Avenue Shuttle seldomly used the southbound track at Prospect Park, although I was on it at least three times that it did. I also suspect that, like the folks along the Culver Line that complain and have eliminated chances for an express, an even louder stink would be raised by the regular Brighton patrons with the shuttle regularly running local to CI.
There was no switch north of the Malbone curve until about 1958/1960 or so. All s/b Franklin trains took the curve and came into the southbound platform even if they were shuttles.
It was interesting to watch the switchback of the shuttles. If the next southbound Brighton was a local the shuttle train took the southbound express track between Prospect Park and Parkside. After the local passed, the shuttle train crossed over to the the northbound local. If the next Brighton was an express, the shuttle waited on the southbound local to switch back.
The shuttle would take the sb track on summer sundays up until around 1970 (maybe later). This would allow the beach crowd to transfer without climbing stairs.
I remember the shuttles terminating at Parkside, and then snaking back across, but I don't know if they would take passengers there. If, as you say, they would only go there based on the next passing train, it wouldn't be a consistent service.
Does anyone know whether the LIRR had trackways west of Flatbush Avenue under Atlantic that would have been severed by the construction of the IRT, circa 1905?
I could never tell when riding on the southbound 7th Avenue Express which is against the wall, but it always seemed that one could see tunnels in line with the LIRR when viewed from the northern end of the Manhattan bound IRT Atlantic Avenue platform.
The LIRR terminus was moved to Flatbush Avenue from the waterfront in the mid-19th century when the City of Brooklyn banned steam engines from operating downtown.
[Does anyone know whether the LIRR had trackways west of Flatbush Avenue under Atlantic that would have been severed by the construction of the IRT, circa 1905?
I could never tell when riding on the southbound 7th Avenue Express which is against the wall, but it always seemed that one could see tunnels in line with the LIRR when viewed from the northern end
of the Manhattan bound IRT Atlantic Avenue platform.]
There is a tunnel under Atlantic Avenue, running down to the waterfront, that was built in the 1840s but abandoned within 20 years or so. As it had been forgotten for something like 100 years before being rediscovered around 1980, I would presume that it wasn't severed when the IRT was built in the first decade of the 20th century (otherwise, it would have been rediscovered then).
What you're seeing at the north end of the IRT platform are the remanants of an IRT-LIRR connection that was built to allow August Belmont's private subway car "Mineola" access to Belmont race track. There is some doubt as to whether tracks ever were installed.
< There is a tunnel under Atlantic Avenue, running down to the waterfront, that was built in the 1840s but abandoned within 20 years or so. As it had been forgotten for something like 100 years before being rediscovered around 1980 >
It wasn't completely forgotten. "Ignored" would be a better term. Several railfans including, IIRC, Martin Schachne and George Horn (well known to the aged among us) explored part of the tunnel in the late 50's.
My impression is that Bob Diamond independently "discovered" the tunnel. What he has done that others had not was to popularize it so that it is now easier for others to view and enjoy it.
I was not referring to the evidence of the trackway on the east side of the station that is visble, but the vey dark outlines of a tunnel that are viewable all the way across on the west side just north of the end of the west wall of the Atlantic Avenue Station.
I don't have this right at hand, but I believe you may be looking at headings for the 4th Avenue Line which were created before the Dual Contracts settled that the 4th would be a BMT line, not an IRT line.
I also believe that the Atlantic Avenue tunnel of which others have spoken began west of Flatbush Avenue, so there would be no extant tunnel to have been sealed off at the IRT tunnel.
There is a platform under Nevins St. station, what you see is the tunnel to this platform. If you look out the front of the the #2 train going south between Hoyt St. and Nevins St. you can see the other end of this tunnel.
I was still referring to the westbound cross-track view from the Atlantic Avenue Northbound platform. I am aware of the 4th Avenue provision and Lafayette Avenue Subway provisions but they would be below the Atlantic Avenue platform level according to drawings that I have seen.
I believe what you are seeing is the access ramp from Nevins Street lower level which would have rejoined the southbound local track just north of Atlantic Av.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Until about 1964 it was still possible to view the outbound connection into the Fourth Av Subway going southbound in the form of a tiled wall pocket on the west wall north of the southbound platform. This was concealed however by the extension of the southbound local platform northward. What you might be seeing is the lower level trackway from Nevins Street rejoining the upper level. I know this duplicates an earlier post somewhat but I am repeating it for clarity.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks, that probably makes the most sense, I think. I will try to get a view the next time that I am in the city with the lower level track in mind.
Gary, I'm not sure if someone else pointed you at the maps of the Nevins Street/Flatbush Avenue area elsewhere on this site, but just in case they didn't click here for an excellent historical map contributed by Joe Brennan.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was familiar with the Professor Brennans maps and vist there frequently, but I never put two and two together at that spot. I just always thought that the LIRR went further westbound under Atlantic from the rumors in the 1960's that a tunnel existed west of there and I could never quite tell the orientation from the moving train.
An early predecessor of the Long Island Railroad was the Brooklyn & Jamaica Railroad and they did indeed build eastward from a ferry landing at the foot of Atlantic Av on Upper New York Bay along Atlantic Av. This service stated in 1834 and lasted until 1861 when passenger service was cut back to East New York and the ferry connection was switched to Hunter's Point. Service was re-extended to Flatbush Av in 1877.
In 1897 a connection was built via an elevated ramp from the LIRR tracks up to the Fifth Av El. This connection also served an elevated merchandise terminal on the south side of Atlantic Av. Through service was run from 1899 to 1904 to Sands Street.
In 1904 the so-called Atlantic Av Improvement was begun and the LIRR was placed into a subway to reach the Flatbush Av Terminal. The connection to the el remained since it served the merchandise terminal. This connection was torn down in 1940 but I understand the el pillars were visible for many years afterward.
The connection for the IRT Contract II Atlantic Av station was built
as part of the construction of the underground terminal. The inbound connection to the IRT was almost certainly in use as it was a very simply matter to connect the two tracks. The outbound connection was provided for in the form of off center roof columns at the south end of the Atlantic Av Station but it is highly unlikely that it ever saw service since the inbound connection would have sufficed for occassional vists by Belmont's private car.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for the info. That is just the kind of information I was looking for. I always knew that the LIRR was at ground level on Atlantic Avenue as my family has lived near there since the 1920's but I never could find that information on the Western end. Could you share your resource?
Gary: Glad to help. There were several sources actually but the best would be an article entitled "Flatbush & Atlantic-LIRR Terminal" by the late Dave Rogoff. Part II of Cunningham's History of the NYC Transit System also contains some good information.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I should mention that the Dave Rogoff article appeared in the November,1958 issue of the Bulletin of the New York Division (ERA).
The Flatbush LIRR was on the surface, at least in Queens as late as 1940, according to my copy of "The history of Woodhaven and Ozone Park". There are pictures dated in the 1930's that show a four track surface railroad running down the center of Atlantic avenue, a local station at 87th/88th streets and a large grade crossing where Atlantic Ave and Rockaway Blvd. intersect.
Hi, guys (and gals) -- I'm just getting back from a nice weekend of camping in mid-Pennsylvania (doing my "nature-boy" routine). It was alittle strange to be out in the woods and not have a PC around (it was almost like suffering from a case of withdrawl).
In any event, I couldn't I thought I might as well give my two cents to this post:
Gary, what you are referring to is indeed the last remaining evidence of August Belmont's IRT spur that connected him with the LIRR Flatbush Ave. branch. From there his private car the "Mineola" ran to a siding on the Belmont Race Track grounds.
Hope that helps.
Doug aka BMTman
Two articles have recently appeared in Metro magazine related to the LIRR. The first concerns opening the LIRR East Side Connection by the year 2009. I tcan be viewed at:
www.transit-center.com/NEWS/articles/nws071899.htm
The second regards new FRA standards for railcar safety. This one is a little more subtle. Part of the new FRA standards is a provision as to what commuter operations will fall under the FRA. It seems that a commuter operation based on operating speed and may not require regulation if that operation can be 'Time Seperated' from existing freight operations. What this could mean for the LIRR is very thought provoking and possibly what the LIRR was planning when they sold off the freight operation to the NY&A. The article, which contains no such assertations, however, may be seen at:
www.transit-center.com/NEWS/articles/nws061799.htm
Those URLs are wrong. That's because the programmer of UNIX was too lazy to write code eliminating cap sensitivity and nobody ever bothered until it was too late. Anyway, the real URLs are:
http://www.transit-center.com/News/articles/nws071899.htm
http://www.transit-center.com/News/articles/nws061799.htm
The ramifications of what you are suggesting are earth shattering. I shudder to think of the possibilities. It wouldn't take much effort at all for either MNCRR, LIRR or NJT and forget PATH to completely move freight to the hours after 12 and before 5. Given that, they all would essentaily become like the TA.
And that is a really frightening prospect. I have advocated outside monotoring for the TA for many years, and now the commuter outfits have lobbied thier way out. No doubt jealous of what the TA gets away with. SIRTOA is a great example.
Not to worry. I'm currently reading the printed version of the proposed CFR 238 - "Passenger Equipment Safety Standards",16 fun filled pages covering everything from wheels to glazing.
As are all FRA regulations,it's prefaced with the statement of applicability,ie "general railroad system of transportation","commuter or other short haul passenger service",etc. Doesn't look like a way out of the FRA to me for LIRR,MN,NJT,or even PATH.
An associate recently attended a meeting on these regs. He reports that none of the reps from FRA regulated properties were looking at them as a way out,either. "Time Separation" was considered to apply to light rail lines that cross freight RR trackage. I believe NJT is seeking such an exemption for the Hudson-Bergen light rail as it will cross the freight line in the Bayonne area.
That was made clearer in the article in "Progressive Railroading" I received today. However, I sense that since the current legislation is titled "interim" it is subject to final revision and while the MTA may not get everything it's looking for right now, the door is open.
It's true that at this point these regs are interim and subject to revision before they take full effect in 2001. As written,they leave the door open on such issues as collision strength,anticlimbers,and truck and coupler attachment. FRA will consider requests for revision from affected carriers before issuing these regs as a "Final Rule"
sometime next year. IMHO,the door's open,but not much.
I was watching the Tonight Show on Thursday. On one of the skits Jay Leno did after the monologue, he used staff members and people from the audience.
One thing I noticed was that one of the staff members was wearing a neck chain with a NYC subway token on it. It was the one with the "Y" carved in the center. I thought that was kind of funny.
On the last day of school this year(which I didn't attend) I went to one of SEPTA's community meetings about the reconstruction of the Market-Frankford Line.
At this particular meeting they were discussing plans for the 46th and 56th Street stations.
Generally, the neighbors liked what they saw except for one crucial factor.
There are plans for all renovated stations to be built with headhouses as station entrances and the neighbors didn't seem to like it that much. The headhouse drawings(included in an eight page packet every attendee received) showed that they were of considerable size(about the size of an average townhouse).
Need a small example? Should you ever find yourself on the West Philly side of the El, stop at 56th Street station. You'll notice a large plot of land behind one of the MANY new Rite-Aids popping up all over town. Half of that could be the headhouse.
As for a timeline, we have no idea when they intend to begin tearing the El down. It was supposed to begin last July, but you know SEPTA.
I missed the one for my station, but will be attending the next one(I believe it's entirely devoted to 52nd St. station).
Where will the MFL be demolished? It will be replaced with a subway?
No one knows.
They mentioned that when they were contemplating how to re-do the project, they came to one of three choices:
A. Repair, not recreate, the current elevated like what might have happened with the Franklin shuttle
B. Tear the El down and replace with a subway, which would have been too expensive
C. Tear down and rebuild the El which is what they will do.
For those of you unfamiliar with the project:
The Market Street portion of the El dates back to 1907. It includes stations at 46th, 52nd, 56th, 60th and 63rd Streets in West Philly. Also the ramshackle station of Millbourne in the tiny borough sandwhiched between the city and the suburb of Upper Darby(also, not a very tolerant place as I can attest).
In 1991(right?) work began on rebuilding the Kensington Avenue(Frankford) side of the El. While the elevated itself is complete, there are stations tothis day that have yet to be completely rebuilt(Allegheny, Erie-Torresdale,Church).
So SEPTA plans to rebuild an el only 3 years younger than New York's original IRT line.
The new structure will feature welded rail, concrete half-ties, single supports(T columns) and indirect night lighting to illuminate the structure, especially in areas of West Philly one woud rather not be in in the dark.
At around 5AM this morning they canceled the G.O since they were able to finsh knocking down the compresser room North of 96 Street. So all No.1,2,3 trains are running on a regular SAT/SUN Schedule.
Why did most subway cars built in the 50s and 60s look almost if not exactly the same? Check it out the R15,16,17,21,22,26,27,28,29,30,32,33 and 36 all look the same. the only difference might be a storm window, a few interior design differences or in the case of the r32 corrugated stainless steel bodies. was there a reason for the design similarities?
It saved a LOT of money not designed a new carbody for each order.
SURE! Once you find something that works, you stick with it, unless something better (like electronic componants, or stainless steel) Everything from the R12 to the R36 are basically the same. The one attempt at making a car 'stylish' was the R40, and most of us know what was wrong there. But then the R40M/42/62 are very similar, and the R44/46/68 look alike as well.
-Hank
Tooling is in place, faster turn around time. Training time is reduced for maintenance and operation. Faster replacement of rolling stock. Reduced inventory of parts.
100% Stainless Steel was only used on the R-11 and R-32. The remainer used mixture of metal.
I am curious as to the aproximate price of a retired subway car. Obviously acquisition cost is but a small part of the total cost of preservation, but this is merely to satisfy my curiosity
When the Branford Electric Railway Association purchased R17 #6688, the car was acquired at a scrap value of $1500 (or so this is what I heard). The car was purchased intact with the components in working order. Any little problems the car was experiencing was rectified by our shop people. Anyway, purchasing a car on a deadline is relatively cheap, but the trucking charges are a real pain in the you know where....
I believe the delivery was approximately $5000 in charges. Wow!!!!
Given the opportunity, I am taking into consideration the possibilty of purchasing my own car, that is if I can get some cash together. Who knows what I might do? I might purchase a SMEE car and give it to Branford as a gift! Wouldn't that be cool! I gotta tell you the SMEE car in Branford needs a companion.
Hey, if you don't want a complete car, why not purchase a car end and make it into the front entrance of a restaurant, or a store? I spotted the head of an R17 and an R21/22 down at a store located in the vicinity of Astor Place here in the city.
Anything's possible - I suppose that it all depends on what you want from the car, then the value goes up.
By the way Stef you wouldn't believe how easy it is to remove the roofing grille covers on 6398. I'd think the screws are rusted permanently but they zip out with a Makita. By the way Eric thinks he read in a book that the R-16 order was to arrive with the R-10 clerestory roofing. AS we remove these vent covers it is apparent that if we chopped off the rivets and remove the outer skin with the turtleback framing, we might end up with a reincarnation of 3141 or 3047. I think we got stuck with a Monday production model as some of the holes didn't originally line up so sister holes were drilled less than 1/8 inch away. We paid $600 for our scrap value. Our out of pocket expense was $5,500 and the transport donated the other $5,500 as a tax writeoff donation.
I see... We at BERA had originnally intended to take off the grills from 6688, but found that to be a daunting task. Jeff H. cut the screws off one grill with great difficulty. It's too much trouble to remove the screws, so we're not bothering with it. I figure, that on each side of the car one grill gets popped off, and then we'll air hose the dirt out of the car. Whatever the case maybe, I'm still chopping away at that old paint on the car.
Well I certainly got my day in the sun. Jeff H. gave me a SMEE car lesson just yesterday, so I was more than willing to run a short distance on the Branford mainline with it. 6688 could still run in the NYC Transit system, given the opportunity.
The R16s with R10 roofing? Can you imagine that? What would be the advantage to have the R10 celestory over the turtleback framing found now?
Lastly, purchasing a car at scrap value isn't so difficult, but for certain, shipping it is a real pain (and costly). Once you purchase the car, the TA expects you get the car off their property.
Cheers!
Stef
I've been involved in moving several pieces of equipment including getting the price quote for moving a GE 44 tonner from Utah to Northern NY ($19,000.00) so I know what you're talking about. The person that I've dealt with is Art Booth at Silk Road Transport in Arkport, NY. He has much expierence in moving all types of rail equipment including Amtrak Genesis carbodies and he also has moved many NYC Subway cars between the Big Apple and Hornell for rebuild. Purchase price is just a small fraction of delivered price. THEN comes the restoration. BTW, That 44 tonner is a BIG win for rail preservation and it's good to have it back home
We got away with it for nearly ten years. First Coney Island then 207th St. then Coney Island again. Back uptown to Concourse yard, then finaly 207th, for the truck ride.
In the 1953 engineering drawings I have, it looks as though the R-16 was suppposed to have roofs like the R-11.
We know how they did come.
Thanks for that note. I don't think that TA brass are too thrilled with having numerous Museum Cars down at C.I., which would explain how Museums like Branford and Seashore got the Lo-V/R4 and R7 combo. Purging of equipment is on the guy's mind who wants to get rid of stuff taking up space on the track outside of C.I. shop.
I hope someone else doesn't get the idea to dump more equipment out, or our efforts to preserve may become even more futile.
Hey, I'm sure you know the three surviving Q cars got dumped last year. If 1602A needs a car to run with, go and check to see if one of those Q's on th scrap line are salvagable (provided that they are still around). This will eliminate the idea of unecessarily modifying 1602A.
-Stef
Hey Stef, Check this out and i took this picture of "BMT Q" in May,1999. There are three BMT Q in South Brooklyn Yard.
The picture looks good. At least I know that they're still around.
-Stef
I always felt 1689 could use a compatible playmate a la the arrangement at Seashore. Eddie Sarkauskas just laughed when I brought that up back in 1980. He said he had to sell the notion of bringing up just one of those subway cars to Shore Line.
You're right: 6688 could use a playmate, too.
We are in agreement then! Thank you!
-Stef
Hey, we offered them a FREE, I mean shipping everything, FREE car. And that came wth a team of dedicated restoration people. But to them an R-16 looks too much like an R-17, so we got turned down. So if I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Yeah, I know. Jeff has already told me he doesn't know if any other SMEE cars coming by the way of the Trolley Museum. And maybe there's a good reason. You have one representation of a 1000 or so similar cars, so why bother?
As for giving them a car for free, well there's no reason, why they couldn't accept it, with the exception of where to store a large car. 6688 is much easier to store than 6398, and no other piece of equipment would have to be kicked out of the barn. Unfortunately the AB Standard and SIRT have no place to go because they are so big (at 67' of course). I certainly don't think you would have wanted 6398 to sit outside and get rust from the elements.
Who knows what might happen. One needs a good defense for taking in another SMEE. A spare pehaps could be acqired in case of an accident?
By the way, if given the opportunity, would Kingston purchase an additional SMEE?
-Stef
I certainly wouldn't complain about having an R-16 and an R-17 coupled together. They're basically cousins, just like the R-10s, R-12s, and R-14s. Or is it more like brother and sister?
Your comment makes sense, though. Most museums strive to have one example of a car type in their collections, and not duplicates. Of course, Shore Line has several Connecticut Company open bench trolleys, and IRM has as many as four 4000-series CTA L cars.
What did it take to get Seashore to agree to have two IND cars in its collection? Now THAT was a smart move!
[ Most museums strive to have one
example of a car type in their collections, and not duplicates. Of
course, Shore Line has several Connecticut Company open bench
trolleys, and IRM has as many as four 4000-series CTA L cars. ]
The issue here is really one of resources. Besides taking room to store additional cars (a big enough problem in itself), it takes a lot of effort to restore them. Even preserving them "as-is" requires a lot of work, as time and the elements (even if they're indoors) take their toll on cars.
SLTM certainly does have several "duplicates" where there is more than one car representing a particular type. In broad terms, there's several lightweight steel safety cars, for example. In more particular terms, there's several "twins", such as 1414/1425 (ConnCo opens), 356/357 (Johnstown Safety Cars), 1349/1362 (BRT Convertible Gate cars), etc.
Determining a policy on collections is a difficult thing for a museum. Many will argue that the museum should "save everything", and any railfan can understand that. On the other hand, spreading resources that thin will mean that you end up with a whole lot of cars left to rot. The best policy probably sacrifices collecting some cars, such that others can get the proper attention. I'm sure, on a different scale, all museums (not just railway) have similar problems, although many artifacts collected are easier to transport and store than railcars.
Branford is one of the few railway museums that has been
actively right-sizing its collection over the past decade.
A lot of duplicates were removed from the property. We didn't
just throw the artifacts away. We followed ARM guidelines and
sold or traded them to other reputable railway museums. In some
cases we improved our collection in the process...the trade of
Dallas/Boston PCC 3323 and a few duplicate Brooklyn box motors
for Philly Master Unit #84 comes to mind.
ConnCo opens 1414 and 1425 are twins, both Osgood-Bradley 15
benchers. 1414 is off the property on long-term lease to
Lake Compounce Park in Bristol, where it is housed indoors and
maintained. We have 2 other ConnCo opens which at first glance
are identical but do have some differences (J.M. Jones built 401
and Brill built 614).
1349 and 1362 are not technically twins. 1349 is a Cincinnati
and 1362 is a Jewett.
Red Arrow cars 18 & 21 are twins. They were accessioned on the
argument of demonstrating multiple-unit streetcars.
356 and 357 are currently twins. 356 will be rebuilt in an alternate
Johnstown end style which it once had (straight dash instead of
sloped) to differentiate the cars.
Every car that is acquired must be reviewed not only in terms of
the immediate costs of acquisition and shipping logistics, but
the long-term costs of "perpetual care". Cars that are stored indoors
accumulate the cost of maintaining the buildings which house them.
Even cars that are stored outdoors incur costs of constructing and
maintaining the track they sit on and conservatory measures such
as painting or tarping.
The original point of this thread was whether Branford would be
acquiring another redbird. On the one hand, having a second car
allows us to interpret the SMEEs more authentically, viz. in
a train. Seashore has their pair of R1-9 cars and that works out
well...they can demonstrate trainline doors, trainline electro-
pneumatic braking. On the other hand, both of those cars are
OUTSIDE. Right now, given the current lack of available indoor
space, if we acquired a SMEE car, it would live outside.
The story was the same in 1989 when some guys from new york approached
the museum about bringing up a graffiti-covered R-16 which,
other than some funky door mods, was mechanically and visually
identical to the clean, painted R-17 we had just acquired.
Those guys were Harry, Erik and another TA motorman who doesn't
post here as far as I know. Contrary to what they have stated,
although we declined to accept the car, we didn't blow them off.
In fact, one of the museum trustees was instrumental in getting
them in contact with TMNY, protecting the car (which the TA badly
wanted off the property) from going to scrap, and helping them
arrange transportation off the TA railhead.
Long-term, the Branford Shore Line Trolley Museum is moving towards
100% indoor storage of its collections through the construction
of new facilities. Since we currently have 75% of the collection
under cover, this is a reasonable goal. I'd say on the average
railway museums have only 50% of their collections housed. Dan
Lawrence from BSM will probably jump in to mention that they are
ahead of the game with, I think, 100% housed.
In my own personal opinion, the only SMEE car I'd want to acquire
in the near future, if we had the space for it, would be an R-10.
After that, the next acquisition would be a 62 or 62A.
Well put, Jeff. As always you say things that make sense. Your point is that cars with significant differences are ones that should be preserved. Some folks, I guess, don't understand that. Nobody has to get slapped in the face, but the facts are the facts (certainly, that wasn't the intention). I've had to realize a few things myself about how Museums operate. There's no space to store any kind of equipment at this point unless improvements are implemented. New storage barns would solve that problem. Given the opportunity, I'd like to see trains of similar cars.
What about the R33 single, would it not be a candidate for preservation? I guess not since it is essentially the same as every other SMEE car from the R16 to R38. The only argument I could bring up for preserving it, would have to do with historical perspectives. What about the World's Fair? Did these cars promote a theme of peace, a radical paint scheme, or just a great ride to Shea???
I didn't know you were interested in preserving an R10. 3184 might be appropriate if the Railway Preservation Corp was willing to sell it. Then their's 3189 at Pitkin Yard. That's it unfortunately. We could surely secure 3189 if she gets disposed of. The R10 is an example of a great transition between the IND and BOT. Companies changed, we passed a 2nd World War, and so did the equipment.
Just a question: Do IRT cars provide greater flexibility than their larger BMT/IND counterparts?
-Stef
[ What about the R33 single, would it not be a candidate for
preservation? ]
The WF was certainly a time of historical significance to New York, and to transit in NY in particular. My opinion, though, is that the R33 is very similar to the R17. Although to paint it (a 33) in WF colors would be nice.
As far as a R-10, I certainly agree with Jeff that that would be a historically significant addition to the collection, as it was a revolutionary car.
I don't know if I'd agree that there is nothing significant to add to the collection until a R62, though.. Personally, I think that any of the 40-46 cars are a good candidate. A 40 slant would be a good example as an oddball design, while a 40M or 42 would be relatively representative of the design from the 70's to the present. All of those cars also represent the move to stainless steel, and the end of the long-lived design of the redbirds and R32/38. Of course, the 44 and 46 also represent the move to larger cars.
Of course, the problem with all of these cars is that they don't exist "in the wild" as single units. I think that they can be made operational that way, though, and doing so would be a reasonable comprimise.
As far as Stef's Question about flexibility of IRT cars over B division, well, there's the obvious issue of size. 53' of track space versus 60-75' is certainly a concern, as well as many issues of turning radius, etc. The width can become an issue for some moves as well. And one reason you can understand is that they're somewhat easier to maintain/preserve. Next time you're on the roof of the 17 scraping paint, imagine if instead it was the top of a R16, and you had an additional 150 sqft of roof area to scrape (approx 450 vs 600) :)
People here have mentioned some concern about "trolley" museums acquiring RT vehicles. Personally, I think that it is good for both the benefit of preserving RT history, as well as a long-term aid to the trolley museums themselves. I think that, as the generation of people who remember the trolleys (or indeed, have _parents_ who remember them) slowly disappears, we're left with a society who doesn't feel as connected to the traction age. Many of these people, however, are exposed to Rapid Transit, and do feel a greater connection to that part of transportation history. I think that most of the younger people volunteering at the museums are probably more interested in RT history. These people are the future of the musuems, both as volunteers as well as patrons and visitors.
Thank you! That was so beautifully put. I really do get the big picture now. RT cars are a piece of history, and most of the younger generations including myself grew up with those RT cars. As for the R33 question, well that's ok not to acquire if it is considered repetitive, although deep down I'd like to see a train of redbirds. The R10 idea is particularly nice.... Now if you could only acquire one. 1575 might be particularly good for the choosing since it is the first R10 pilot model, while at the same time it is still mechanically an R7. I don't know if my friends at the Transit Museum would be willing to give it up, but it's food for thought. Can you see that car rolling down the line with 1689????
For operational flexibility, perhaps the IRT types of equipment are better suited for at least the Branford Museum line.
-Stef
When is service to Queens through the 63rd St. tunnel estimated to start? Though much discussion focused on the Q, if that service operates as it does now (part-time weekdays), will there be other routes operating through the 63rd St. tunnel to maintain 24 hour service?
Will the B operate on weekends and evenings as now? Or will another route or shuttle provide the service? Will non-weekday service end at Queens Plaza or continue on into Queens? If beyond QP, where will it terminate?
Mike Rothenberg
My understanding is that the link will not be complete until the fall of 2001. That will mean this project will take over 7 years, longer than it took to build the first IRT line.
Also, I should mention that the connection from the 63rd St. tunnel is between 36th Street and Queens Plaza, so trains coming into Queens from 63rd Street will not stop at Queens Plaza.
Speaking of which, the work has progressed rather good. The work on the tunnel to T1 and T2 tracks is completed is for the most part completed (from my observation). I wouldn't be surprised if they finished early.
Riding to and from Queens Plz on the E, I noticed a few items: Track D4 (Queens Bound) is in service again. Track D5, the layup track is out of service. One switch has been cut in to track D3 which leads to the 63rd St ramp towards Manhattan outside of 36th St. A switch between D3 (Manhattan bound Exp) and D1 (Manhattan bound Lcl) was also installed going into Queens Plz to give access for trains coming off of D5 (layup) to directly access the local track.
The work is coming along very nicely.
I have questions of my own. Why not let the G terminate at Queens Plaza on the weekend? They did it before. There's less service out and running on the line anyway when you compare it to the weekday schedule.
Car assignments are another: Hey Steve, do you think you'll have to admit the R68s or some other foreign equipment into Jamaica Yard, when the service commences (storage during the day perhaps?)?
If they finish early, will a sufficient number of cars be in to start service? I doubt it considering what is going on with the R142's.....The entrance to D5 north of Queens Plaza has always been in that spot, but it will end in a bumper block as it will not end outside 36 St. as previously. Notice that D4 now curves onto the former right of way of D5 track just past the bumper block. The old right of way from D4 is now the ramp coming up (T2 track). Coming from 36 St., notice old D1 right of way is now the ramp going down (T1 track) and new D1 track is a completely new right of way cut out from the wall and swings back after the ramp disappears........if the G goes to Queens Plaza on the weekend and Court Sq. during the week, weekday passengers will ask why do you increase service on the weekend when fewer people ride? But a train having to discharge passengers on the main line (delay the R), cross the plant (delay the E & F), then come back out (delay the E & F), relieve the arriving crew, pick up passengers (delay the E & F some more!), cross over again (delay the R) because they use the same trackage for a few feet till the R branches off, it will work on paper, but we all know one train being 2 minutes late will throw the process into haywire!. I think it would be unwise from an operational standpoint. Yes, they did it in the past, but it adversely affected the E/F & R......Finally, Steve has over 1000 cars to take care of already. Sure the G will require fewer cars, but he'll still have 1000 cars. Look for the E/F/G/R to stay with Jamaica, and if the new line goes to south Brooklyn Coney Island whould handle it as they already handle the cars coming from 21 St. If the service paln doesn't have the service going to Brooklyn, then there will be other arrangements. There is plenty of time to figure that stuff out!
[if the G goes to Queens Plaza on the weekend and Court Sq. during the week, weekday passengers will ask why do you increase service on the weekend when fewer people ride?]
On the Weekend, the Actual Court Sq entrances are closed, and the only way to the station is the long passageway to the E & F. That seems a bit too much for a permanent arrangement. Besides, how much did it delay the E F & R? From what I saw, there was no interference, as those lines run on lighter frequency on the weekends.
With service increases, midday service freqeuncy is virtually the same 7 days a week.
The TA has made no decisions as to the service plan. I would assume they are figuring a plan which will maximize cab time for the employees! BTW: this question is asked by somebody every week it seems! I can assure you, when the opening time comes in a few years and the pick books are out with the jobs and service plan, motormen (or train operators) and conductors on this site will gladly share that info with all SubTalkers!
This is what I think they should just get rid of the G line from going to 71st. Ave. and instead make the B terminal at 179 St.Don't say it.What about the Q get rid of it?Yes.And the E and R will stay the same.But the F will terminal at 71st. Ave. but it will remain express.The B will be Queens Local.
Where did you get your "facts" from? No decisons as to service plans has been made, other than the G will terminate at Court Sq. 24/7.
Nothing has yet to be decided. The Manhattan Bridge configuration will dictate how service will be provided, and that's unkniown at this date.
Nothing has yet to be decided. The Manhattan Bridge configuration will dictate how service will be provided, and that's unknown at this date.
I'm looking for help with directions. How can I get from Penn Station in Newark, N.J. to Penn Station in New York? And from there how can I get to Brooklyn Heights by subway? Or what is the quickest and least expensive way to get from Newark, NJ airport to Brooklyn Heights, New York (without getting lost)? I would appreciate any help with these directions.
Thank You,
Bunny
If you're coming from the Airport, don't bother making it to either Penn Station (especially the NY one, it's not a grand terminal, just a basement for Madison Square Garden). You can take a cab from the airport. Or you can take the AIRLINK bus to Manhattan, but I don't remember where it stops. Anyway, good trains to Brooklyn Heights are the 2/3 to Clark Street or Borough Hall 4/5 to Borough Hall or M/N/R to Court Street. Remember to check the subway map (available free from clerks at stations) service guide because the M is split in half and this half only runs rush hours and the 5 only runs to Brooklyn rush hours. I think a cheap way to go from the airport (but might be bad with bags) is to take Newark local bus (low fare, I don't know which number) which goes to Penn Station in Newark and take PATH ($1) from there to the World Trade Center (one end to the other) and pick up the N or R from there. All this depends on where you're going exactly.
The Airlink bus goes to Penn Station in Newark (then continues on through downtown Newark), NOT New York.
NJ Transit operates both the #302 Airlink and the regular #62 Newark-Elizabeth-Perth Amboy buses between the airport and Penn Station Newark.
If you have luggage, take the 302, since the buses used on that line have luggage racks. The fare for that service is $4.00.
If you don't have luggage, take the #62 (regular transit bus), the fare is $1.00.
At Penn Station, take the PATH train ($1.00) to the World Trade Center (just stay on the train).
When you arrive, go up to the PATH concourse (all escalaters and stairs go there, so just use the nearest one), exit through the turnstiles, and just follow everybody up to the main concourse (a small flight of stairs, followed by a looong flight of escalators).
At the top, go to your right, then left, and walk straight to the BMT subway entrance (N, R trains) and take the next train to Court Street.
That's Brooklyn Heights for the cost of $3.50 total.
If you want to save time, take the Olympia bus from the airport directly to the World Trade Center, but only if you feel like paying 10 bucks.
As you know that My Subway's Page is not finish yet and will add more pictures on my subway's page. My page could finish next weekend or after because i have four films that not development yet. Any Williamburg Bridge is almost done and look like they ready on Labor Day. I hope
Peace Out
Meaney
Today i add more pictures on Division A & B also Work Trains. Check out my page and enjoy it!!!! www.angelfire.com/ct/nyctmtasubway/index.html or go to Busfacts page by Trevor Logan.
Peace Out
Meaney
Pardon my anger, but is it me or is someone plagiarizing my maps for their own use *WITHOUT* permission and removed copyrighted info??????
Here's few samples:
1) John Cambron has a web page about Washington DC's WMATA which includes my WMATA track map and passed as his own copyright, after sending him email, he said he tried to email me to get permission, which of course I never got his email, how dare he slapped his name on copyright info? He eventually took off the map, but a week later, he enlarged "my" map and modified in many ways, I still feel he is still using my map as a base.
2) Calgary Transit used my Calgary light rail map without permission and clipped off copyrighted info, this has since been removed and that transit agency has placed their own map.
3) The Subway Navigator (http://metro.jussieu.fr:10001/bin/cities/english) still is using my map without my name and permission, they modified too!
4) This was final draw for me....Yesterday when I was delivering mail, I came across a copy of "RailwayAge" magazine (July 1999 issue), and good thing that customer gets this magazine *after* my lunch break so I can browse it quickly, to my dismay but at the same time I'm flattered that they used my NYC Subway map for their advertising I still never got the company to ask my permission to use my map for their Adversiting! The company that used my map for Ad is Vibratech (www.vibratech.com) page 7.
I don't know how these people/companies have the nerve to do this kind of plagarizism, it turns me off and am considering removing my maps but I really don't want to do that. I don't have time to pursue everything since I'm working alot of overtime as a mailman since we're short staffed and am moving to a new house next month. How can we do about this plagarizism thing? I recall a situation that SEPTA stole Jason DeCesare's photos, and as a result he removed his photos off this website, correct me if I'm wrong.
I know you may think I sound overreacting, but the number has raised and I'm seriously concerned and they shouldn't do this and in this case, Vibratech is not paying me a one red cent for adveristing use!
Thanks for your attention into this matter and you can reply on SubTalk so we can get feedback together.
Michael Adler
contributor approximately 70 maps on www.nycsubway.org for everyone to enjoy
Your maps are really informitive and I hope you don't pull them off the web. Your maps are more informitive then the MTA offical maps. If those companys are to lazy to make there own and use your map you should be payed for it.
Mike, this illustrates why IP (Intellectual Property) laws were passed in the first place--if people's IP efforts are unrewarded (either financially or by simple recognition, if that's what they want) they're less likely to create.
I'm not an attorney but have some experience in this, so here are some suggestions.
"Sign" all your maps electronically with Digimarc (www.digimarc.com). These "digital watermarks" embed your copyright information invisibly and fairly durably in the image file. You can't read these with current browsers AFAIK, but you can both read and write them with program such as Photoshop. Once you've placed a digimark in your file, someone else cannot overwrite it.
So someone could grab your map, put it on their own site, cut off the visible copyright, but you can still read your digimarc copyright electronically. The digimarc watermark links to digimark's site with the copyright owner's information.
Basic digimarc service is free to the copyright owner.
Of course, like a printed copyright, the placing of a digimarc watermark in a graphic file does not confer a copyright on a work already in the public domain.
I would also suggest you strengthen the wording of copyright notices on your work, i.e., "this work copyrighted (c) 1996 by Michael Adler. It is not in the public domain and may be used only by permission. Contact..." This helps counter claims of innocent infringement.
You may also want to specify (perhaps with a link) exactly what rights you are confering to the viewer. I would say "fair use" usually covers someone printing a map and putting in a file folder or putting on the wall for their own use only.
Beyond that, you can specify, for example: "You may make a paper copy for your own use only." "You may create a link on your web site to one of my maps if you say 'Map of NYC transit by Michael Adler'." "You may place this map on your web site for non-commercial use only if you retain all copyright information, and include the phrase 'Copyright 1999 by Michael Adler. All rights reserved. Used by permission.'"
Using one of your maps on a transit system website and cutting off your copyright is pretty outrageous, using one on a commercial site is worse and using one in advertising is worst. Since this has gotten to the point of commercial use, you should probably talk to an IP attorney--the consultation is usually free. An attorney's letter is much better than your personal complaint, and you could very possibly get some well-deserved licensing fees.
For my own part, I copyright my site (www.rapidtransit.net) and put both written and digital copyrights on certain pictures which I have digitally reworked making them eligible for current copyright. I don't do this to deprive people of their enjoynent. For example, Kevin Walsh has a couple on his site, by permission. It's that I don't want them to become public domain so that I might someday see someone publish them in a book withour attribution.
I've visited your site, it's great, but why did you enclose it in frames like that so that you can't bookmark each page or anything?
Are you using Netscape? I see the site bookmarks OK in Internet Explorer but not Netscape.
I suspect this is because I use a domain forward--i.e. I have the pages as a subdirectory on another site with the same IP address. I'll have to look into this.
Another problem in Netscape - perhaps because of the domain forwarding also, I can't go BACK to wherever I was (in this case, SubTalk) before I was at your site. I find that sufficiently annoying, in the case of commercial sites, to never go back there. (In your case, I'll make an exception!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Aha. I see that, too. That I can figure out. The way the domain forward works is that the URL points to an IP address at the forwarding company (Domain Direct) where it is invisibly translated into a subdirectory holding rapidtransit.net.
What Netscape is doing when you press "Back" is to return not to the last site you visited but to the IP address of Domain Direct which then dumps you right back on my site. Internet Explorer doesn't do this, but returns you to your former visited site. (Plese don't flame me, Netscapers, I'm only the messenger)
There is a workaround that works in my Netscape 4.61: Right-click on your "Back" button--this gives you a pull-down menu from whichyou choose the former site you want to go back to.
Right now I'm using space and bandwidth on one of the two servers my company uses. This is a rasonably fast server and I'd rather not use one of those cheapy servers where the forwarding problem wouldn't exist but the site would take forever to come up.
Of course, I'll have to switch to a dedicated IP address before I really go big time. I have this plan to have rapidtransit.net as the front for a holding company which will privatize public bus systems and then switch them over to streetcars (which one of my backers will, of course, build). I just don't have a name for my holding company yet. Hmmm ... what do you think of "National City Lines"?
Great idea, Paul, but do you really think the NIMBYs will allow it?!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sure, we'll give 'em all jobs as streetcar conductors.
Aha. I see that, too. That I can figure out. The way the domain forward works is that the URL points to an IP address at the forwarding company (Domain Direct) where it is invisibly translated into a subdirectory holding rapidtransit.net.
What Netscape is doing when you press "Back" is to return not to the last site you visited but to the IP address of Domain Direct which then dumps you right back on my site. Internet Explorer doesn't do this, but returns you to your former visited site. (Plese don't flame me, Netscapers, I'm only the messenger)
There is a workaround that works in my Netscape 4.61: Right-click on your "Back" button--this gives you a pull-down menu from whichyou choose the former site you want to go back to.
Right now I'm using space and bandwidth on one of the two servers my company uses. This is a rasonably fast server and I'd rather not use one of those cheapy servers where the forwarding problem wouldn't exist but the site would take forever to come up.
Of course, I'll have to switch to a dedicated IP address before I really go big time. I have this plan to have rapidtransit.net as the front for a holding company which will privatize public bus systems and then switch them over to streetcars (which one of my backers will, of course, build). I just don't have a name for my holding company yet. Hmmm ... what do you think of "National City Lines"?
Great idea, Paul, but do you really think the NIMBYs will allow it?!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sure, we'll give 'em all jobs as streetcar conductors.
I think the issue here is that you just don't have the time -- or in the incentive -- to pursue everyone who is copying your map. Would this be possible? Place a little box somewhere that specifies a (sky high) level of fees for the use of your maps, subject to modification based on bilateral agreements. Say, $50,000 plus $500 per day to install a map on a website, $500,000 to sell prints, etc. State that the use of a map indicates an agreement with the terms. Then get a lawyer investigator to pursue the money in exchange for one-third.
Let's have a legal opinion on this. ATTENTION LAWYERS
Well, he can always have a freindly lawyer wrote one of those 'cease and desist' letters of the type Paramount and LucasFilm are so fond of sending to netfans...
-Hank
Ok,
Now what should I do in this case that a company used my map for their advertising that was in this month issue of RailwayAge and I'm sure in numerous transportation-related magazines. Should I demand payment? Should I retain a lawyer? do I have high chance of getting that company to pay me and to stop using my map? I really am not interested in money but just want to hit them where financially is (They should pay because they broke copyright law outright, am I right?) What do you think I should pursue?
Thanks
Michael
I think you should go after them, but it may not be easy. They could claim the "reverse engineered" your map, printing it out and making a new version themselves, rather than simply using your work. After all, I'm sure you had access to an MTA map when you made your own.
Is there some identifier (ie. an intentionally misspelled word) that you could use to prove an exact copy? Perhaps you should add one to your maps.
At the very least, you can call the magazine and complain.
Larry, you bring up a good point in that the information on a map is basically in the public domain. You need to show that what you personally created was used, or was substantially used.
This is all the more reason Michael's probably going to need at least a consultation with an experienced attorney. A good attorney will know how to proceed. Will a good letter with a reasonable demand for compensation suffice? Will the infringer settle for the nuisance value as much as for the infringement?
The best case is if Michael can show his actual map was used, not one that looks very much like it.
What this whole episode indicates is that copyright law is still not taken too seriously when it comes to Web-based publishing. Plagarization of printed materals, while not unknown, is quite rare; most people, whether they'll come out and say it or not, respect copyrights when print is involved. Yet there seems to be a common notion that anything on the Web is in the public domain.
It's also much easier to pick something off the web. I think the ease of copying makes it seem less like you're doing something illegal. People used to have the same attitude toward copying software, not its much less true, especially when companies are the ones doing the copying.
It takes much more work to plagiarize something written and you're much more conscious that you're stealing.
I also think people assume that they're more likely to be pursued by a print author or publisher and, at least for the time being, I think they're right.
This brings up the similar issue of images/photos that appear on websites. I once told a friend that if he didn't want people to reproduce his pics w/o his permission that anything he puts up should be of a fair to poor quality image (small pixel size). That way any potential theives will be left with lame images.
Hi, Doug, In the earlier days of PC software development, software publishers used elaborate schemes to try to avoid unlicensed use. This had the end result of annoying legal users and giving the more determined hackers interesting puzzles to work out.
Nowadays copy discouragement (embedding of unique serial numbers, etc.) is more used than physical protection. But this was combined with legal action against significant infringers. This worked well enough that very often the single user version of a program is identical to the network version--the only difference is that the network user purchases a license which is just a legal piece of paper saying "you may use this program for n users."
My point is that the web is new and the culture has to be changed. Part of it is to disabuse people of the notion that web content is in the public domain. Perhaps the culture won't change without some well-publicized lawsuits.
"Why should I care?" Because eventually you will see a lot less free content on the web, such as Michael's maps.
There is a certain attitude that stuff on the 'net is like a bicycle in NYC: community property.
Since this really upsets you, and in my non-professional experience is actionable, I think this is what I would do, if it were me.
First, get your ducks in a row. If you have a browser like IE5, which lets you save an entire web page, with all graphics, do that. Note the URLs, dates ... anything that seems relevant. Have some of the folks at nyctransit and others look at your maps on other's sites and print them out, so that, if necessary, they could testify "yes, I went to xyz.com, I followed this link, and this is the map I printed out."
What I'm saying is you have a different situation from the usual print violation. If I were to take a bunch of your maps, cut off the copyrights and print them in a booklet, it would be a no-brainer. You could take the book to court. This is a little different, if the infringers get wind of the fact you're after them, they might simply take your maps off their server--then you need some way of proving they ever used.
But I believe you said one of your maps ended up in an ad in Railway Age. This is probably your strongest case. It's in print, used by a business for a commercial purpose.
So my next move would be to find an attorney who specifically knows copyright law (unfortunately it seems that some attorneys will never turn away a job, even if it's outside their experience. If I were completely at sea as to who to pick I suppose I would go to a large consumer law firm like (out my way) Siben & Siben. The reason for this is that since they have many attorneys, they could steer you to the one who is likely to have specific experience. Or, you can even look on the Internet for the web site of an IP attorney near you.
Bring this attorney what you consider your two or three best cases. Tell him/her what your objectives are. Then let him/her advise you on how to proceed. I would also listen carefully to get an impression of how well I thought this attorney could handle the case. (Does he/she seem really knowledgeable? Has he/she had similar cases? What will you be charged? Could he/she seek a simple resolution without going to court?
If I felt really strongly that I had to take action, and that simply getting my maps off the sites of the worst infringers was not enough, I think I would not contact these worst infringers personally, but would have the attorney make the first contact.
Thanks for the link to www.forgotten-ny.com, BTW.
I got off an E train (running local on the N/R tracks) at Times Square, at the back of the train. When I walked up to the mezzanine area, there was a large police presence. They were directing everyone to exit. They said "this station is closed."
Just then, a shuttle train pulled in and all passengers were directed to exit (they were not allowed to transer). The entire mezzanine was empty. You couldn't get to the 1/2/3/9, N/R, S, or 7.
Anyone knows what is going on? Sun 3pm
You answered your own question: Police Action!" Maybe something was on the 6:00 news.
No, heard nothing on the news. Once again, where are they when it comes to covering what effects the everyday New Yorker?
I keep seeing this train on the S. The roll sign is a purple upside-down 11. What's with that?
An S upside down is still an S. Apparently, the person changing the signs should have turned the crank one more reading. In this way, the outside 11 would have disappeared, and the S you saw would have been shown outside the car instead of inside. The same thing holds true when side signs are changed from J to Z. You have to stop turning at the second Z you see. If you stop at the first Z, then you will have an upside down J on the outside. Hope I didn't confuse the issue!
The same thing with the N and the W, which has led many to think they saw an yellow diamond "M", and on the R-68's the M and N, making people think there is a brown "W"
You just answered a question I was going to ask (yellow diamond M).
Having ridden the Shuttle twice this week, I'll give a little more info. Apparently, the person charged with changing the signs didn't really give a damn, as the destination signs still read 148st-Lenox Terminal and New Lots Ave.
-Hank
I caught the 13 train last December at 72nd-Bway. One of the signs claimed it was going to Utica Avenue. (It was merely a mislabeled 1, at least for the two stops I rode.)
What color was the 13 circle?
Red. It appeared on the front of the train and I think (but I'm not sure) on the side of the car that I rode in. Perhaps the date (the evening of December 24) was relevant.
(The train was running on the local track, and most of the other signs did give the correct "1" indication, so except for a few tourists, I don't think anyone got truly confused.)
i hope alot of folks weren't too confused when they saw #13 instead of a #3? LOL;-)
My e-mail has been on the fritz since Friday (rewiring in bldg and host down). Please post via subtalk...
Thanks!
I was riding the #4 train to Yankee Stadium on July 22. The subway became elevated just before the stadium. There I noticed a third center track that was not used. What is this track used for? Are there express trains that run past the stadium? Also, I noticed that that the train I was riding in made it's final stop at the stadium. People continuing on to Woodlawn had to transfer to another 4 train. I wonder why this is.
The third track was used for through express service on Jerome Av., in the direction of prevailing traffic. This service was run rush hours only. Whether it is still scheduled that way I don't know.
Possibilities for your train terminating at 161-River are:
Mechanical problems with the trainb
Service delays due to stadium traffic.
Extra Run specifically for traffic to the stadium.
There has never been regularly-scheduled "thru express" service on the Jerome Ave. line. It could be done, but it hasn't ever. Such trains would either have to (1) run express to Burnside Ave., then go local, or (2) stop only at Burnside Ave. and Woodlawn. The first alternative would save too little time to be worthwhile as a separate service, the second would serve too few people.
Does anyone know what they're doing on the Far Rockaway line? Does it have anything to do with the light rail service to JFK?
Does anyone know what they're doing on the Far Rockaway line? Does it have anything to do with the light rail service to JFK?
The only Airtrain constrution will be near Howard Beach.
Dear readers,
I am searching for documents published by the MTA and would like to know a quick way to contact them in order to obtain (purchase if necessary) the following documents:
Art En Route
MTA Arts for Transit
New York : MTA, 1994
Are En Route
MTA Arts for Transit
New York: MTA, 1993
Thank you very much for your consideration, in advance,
Sincerely,
Mary Louise Grossman
Researcher
Institute for Transport Policy Studies
3-18-19 Toranomon
Tokyo 105-0001
Japan
mlgross@jterc.or.jp
fax 81-3-5470-8419
You might have some luck with the Transit Museum - their home page is a link off the MTA Home Page, or possibly directly with the MTA itself (phone numbers on the MTA web page). I don't recall ever seeing the publication you have referenced, and a quick search of recent listings I have from a couple of railfan specialty book dealers didn't turn up anything. Good luck!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Try this:
Public Affairs
Metropolitan Transportation Authority
347 Madison Avenue
New York NY USA 10017
David
A legal notice of note from the NY Post of July 23, 1999. Ever been in a subway car with a sagging or wavy floor? I was in R32 3494 on the E and that floor was literally sinking between the #2 & #7 doorways. Apparently there is simple plywood under the floor covering rather than a plymetal under floor covering that was there when the cars were originally built. So now a contract is out for a company to funish and deliver plymetal sub-flooring for R32, R38, R42, R62 and R68 cars. As installation is not part of this contract, apparently the work will be done "in-house by experienced TA car equipment personell.
There is a plywood subfloor on the R-32s as there is on all NYCT Cars. The plywwod is sandwiched between sheets of galvanized steel and stainless steel. Unfortunately, production problems during overhaul by MK in the 80s, have lead to pre-mature failure. All R-32 floors will be replaced beginning in October.
That also the case of here on the IRT. I find spot like that in me operating car once a day the least on those R62A'S on the No.1 Line. Also Saturday was the first time I steped in a low stop on a R 33 AT Flatbush. It must be happening on all the cars
Well that's what happens when you put wooden floors in an enviornment where they're going to get wet. The original floor was aluminum with a special cement with tiles over it. It had durabiltiy problems as well, but at least they lasted longer than 10 years!
The floors you are referring to was called 'MAGNESITE'.
You know it really is a shame that the inspector general doesn't do something about the waste that goes on in the TA on a day to day basis. It is worse that some are degrading the rebuilder and not the engineers that drew the specs. If the TA asked for plywood floors in the contract, or if they asked for Rockwell trucks in the contract, then they get what they pay for. I remember after the R-46s were overhauled they had their brand new never used picture window aluminum frames tossed in the trash compactors in Jamaica Yard to be replaced by those of a different design. I wonder if the TA will try to amend this contract to include installation of the new flooring as part of the deal.By the way the R-44 does have an aluminum topping over the plywood but they are warped almost as bad; you just have to look at it. Lets start a new movement by dialing 1-800-MTA-IG4U.
Just prior to my retirement, it was discovered that the TA engineers had spec-ed the R-32 floor incorrectly. They reversed the position of the galvanized steel and the stainless steel sheathing for the plywood subfloor. MK engineers had oversight responsibility for the project and should have spotted the error but didn't. I doubt that this would now be fodder for the MTA IG. But now, similar problems have surfaced on the R-62 and R-68 and R-68A. The R-68A was rushed through warranty with the floor defects known. The TA Manager responsible speeding the R-68As through warranty is retired and now -
is working for Kawasaki on the LIRR project (for the KHI R-68A project manager) and will work on the R-142A project too. NOW THIS MIGHT BE OF INTEREST TO 1-800-MTA-IG4U...
I have seen a copy of a proposal regarding another B Division Car Life Extension: 665 cars. No date was specified, but it must be part of the next 5 year MTA Capital Program, and I can't see it starting till after the R143's start arriving. The text: "The purpose of this project is to overhaul up to 665 B division subway cars in order to extend their useful lives by 12-15 years. Replacing every vehicle that would be due for retirement in the 2000-2004 period would be cost prohibitive. A fleet study showed that life-extension overhauls are a cost-effective alternative for some of the fleet. The work would include the R32 M/K, R40M, and R42 M/K cars which would otherwise need to be retired prior to 2006. The overhaul of these cars will include the carbody roof, end wall/bonnet and undercar. The other subsystems requiring rehabilitation will be doors, interior, truck assembly, propulsion, auxiliary electrical equipment and some other improvements." Estimated cost: $467 Million.
Yes and they will also be getting new floors. The R-32s will be the first to begin the floor replacement project, in October, at a rate of 1 car per day.
hello everyone,
i was walking through the south station commuter rail terminal yesterday and was looking at webstreet.com's ads. they bought the all the advertising spaces in the whole place. after seeing it i remembered that some of the subway cars in new york have just ads for one thing. i remember some kind of drink and some clothing company dominating 2 of the cars i rode in on a brooklyn bound D train. do any of u know how much it would be to buy the advertising space in a NYC subway car? and i was also wondering if this total advertising domination is used in any other stations or subway cars around the country.
Thanx
Matt
Yes, they do it here in Philly, now, too. Tide has a particularly obnoxious one that would drive any clean freak to suicide. There's about five or six different phrases used, and they all basically say how many germs are probably crawling all over you at the moment. I really resent ads that try to scare you into buying a product. But that's another topic...
Those that despise the advertising head-beating would be happy to know that SEPTA recently eliminated along-the-ceiling ads on the MFL with the introduction of the new M-4 cars - like WMATA, they only have the small posters near the doors.
I was in NYC last weekend, and it seemed like every other car had at least one side dedicated to just one advertiser. Smirnoff vodka was one I saw a lot. (That might have been the drink ad you remember.) And there was one with a car-long row of cups of coffee. It must not have been a very effective ad, because despite studying it for at least five minutes, I can't recall for the life of me what it was advertising...
The coffe-cup ad is for an interbet service provider - I can't remember its name either and I spent 4 hours with the ad today.
i guess that the ads aren't really doing their jobs. The other ad here that made me chuckle was an ad for a learn english program. It said learn english. now i'm no professor but if u don't know english what good is it? that sign is all over the 4 lines here in boston. And a little of the subject of transit but a new york question, in times square, does the 8 o'clock coffee bean sign steam? my brother and i bet a subway token next time we were in new york we would see whether the cup of noodles sign was the only steaming one. i'm sure one of u guys could settle this. a pictuire would help.
Thanx,
Matt
Hopefully you come back within the next 2 or 3 years or you'll have to bet the Single Ride Metrocard (remember to use it within 2 hours of purchase!).
In Syracuse, where I live, the Central NY Regional Transit Authority (CENTRO) has a successful bus card program as well as a growing fleet of wrapped buses. However, the sales of bus interior advertising is almost totally limited to pubilc service type copy and CENTRO propaganda
Gerry;
Harold and I have the day. Phil and Todd will meet us up there. I think Steve is coming too. We need to know where and when to meet you, and how to get there.
Regards, Erik
P.S. let me know when the E-mail is fixed.
to BrassBallsInc@webtv.net
I live on the south side of Boston. The best way to get there is to take I-95 all the way from NYC to Dedham. When you reach the junction with I-93, pick up I-93 north. Get in one of the two left hand lanes to make sure you don't accidently end up headed for Cape Cod. Take Exit 11 (Granite Av. - Ashmont) and again stay to the left. (there is a cop who regularly enforces a right turn only lane at the first light!) Follow Granite Avenue (and Adams St.) through three sets of lights (not counting the drawbridge), then take your next right (Westglow St.). Follow Westglow to the first Stop Sign (Garner Rd.) and turn left. Look for the retired ambulance near the end of the street, my house is #49.
Its a decent neighborhood - your car should be safe. The more usual route via I-90 isn't advisable, since the turnpike backs up at the end due to lane restrictions, sharp curves and I-93 traffic. (Morning rush is now 6:00 AM to noon, evening rush is 12:01 PM to 8:00 PM, and night artery work ties things up from 11:00 PM to 5:59 AM. That leaves 3 good hours in the evening, provided there is no special event in town or game at the Fleetcenter.) Running time from my house to STM is about 2 hours.
Gerry
to Erik!
E-mail is back up but your address bounced!
Can someone tell me if in fact Branford trolly museum had a collision involving the R-4 and the R-17 and if there was a second collision that same day invoving the Hi-V? This happened approx two weeks ago.
I was there all day Saturday (well from late AM 'till past closing) and the worst thing that happenend was we broke the cloths line backing up the R-9. The car moves within the yard are done really slow, I would guess any accident was more of a kiss.
Mr t__:^)
The only collision that occured at Branford that day was between the coupler on the #2 end of the R-17 and my knee. The coupler won, and I limped around for a number of days.
Unfortunately, there was a collision last week at the Connecticut Trolley Museum in East Windsor, Connecticut. While I do not know many details, I understand that the cars involved were their New Orleans car and their Connecticut open. One operator was injured.
Just curious, Bob, where did you get your information?
There was a collision between the two mentioned cars, and the motorman of 832 was injured when the controller fell on his leg. There was a photo in the Hartford Courant on Thurday, 7/22, but no article. Since no details, it must have been fairly minor. Compared to the 1987 head-on at the National Capital Trolley Museum, which got copius coverage on TV and in the Washington Post.
There's been nothing on the Web or any of the traction newsgroups, and we all know how the rumor mill there goes.
It funny but I heard the same rumor from Mike Hanna at the TMNY about two weeks ago, one a sideswipe between two NYCTA cars and the other attempting to M.U. the Lo and Hi V cars. I wouldn't doubt anything coming from a source such as Mike.
Come on, now. Mike is reliable, but not everything has to be the truth.
-Stef
[ Can someone tell me if in fact Branford trolly museum had a collision
involving the R-4 and the R-17 and if there was a second collision
that same day invoving the Hi-V? This happened approx two weeks ago. ]
To my knowledge, there has never been any notable accident at Branford involving any RT cars. There is also no R-4 at Branford, although there is R-9 #1689.
There have been many couplings between different El cars, and RT cars. Three weeks ago, when the NY cars were all out, there was a 3662-5466 train made up and taken apart. That's the only time any cars touched each other that I know of.
I have no idea how lou's knee made contact with #6688's coupler, but I'd imagine that it was his knee in motion and not the vehicle.
(disclaimer: I'm speaking for myself, about my own knowledge, not for bera or any other entity).
Woodlawn Bob,
There have been absolutely no accidents involving the RT cars. There was a small mishap between Lou and the R17. It seems that the car got the better of him (sorry Lou!).
I was informed by Jeff H. that during the NY in June event, the Hi-V/Lo-V lashup ended with 3662's rope getting snagged on 5466 as the Lo-V was moving away. Nothing major happened, but the rope snapped and the trolley pole on 3662 started bouncing up and down. Good thing the trolley pole didn't get ripped out of the pole base...
Again, where did you get your info from?
-Stef
I presume 3662 and 5466 were only coupled mechanically, no?
[ I presume 3662 and 5466 were only coupled mechanically, no? ]
Mechanically and Pneumatically, or "Air and Iron", which sounds so much more "Railroad-like".
In other words, they are coupled mechanically, and have trainline braking, as the AMUE of the Lo-V and the AMRE of the Hi-V can work together. This is the same as is done with the 1689-5466 lashup which we do often as well. That train could be coupled electrically as well, but it would require some wiring to be made up, as the R-9 has a coupler with an electric portion for MU, while the Lo-V has a separate electric plug. I'd guess the way to do it would be to outfit the R-9 with a plug (in a hidden location), and then do it that way.
P.S. In October the "BU", i.e. 1227 was coupled to one of the other RT cars, but don't remember which. This June she went down the line on her own just fine with some of us hanging out on the porch until mngt told us to get inside (it's not the safest place to be so we understood).
Mr t__:^)
[ P.S. In October the "BU", i.e. 1227 was coupled to one of the other RT
cars, but don't remember which. This June she went down the line on
her own just fine with some of us hanging out on the porch until mngt ]
I was only there for one day of the weekend of NY days this past October, but I don't remember a train being made with 1227.
It has been in the past coupled with many of the other El cars, including car "G". Before "G" was sent on loan to the NYTM, a fantrip was run with 1227 and G. Maybe that's what you remember.
This Saturday, car 1349 (Convertible BU gate car) was pulled out of the barns for a week's worth of restoration in the shops. On Sunday, the move was scheduled to be completed, where it will swap places with #6688. There is a lot of work remaining on 1349, but maybe someday soon it will be ready for a trip down the line with passengers.
Right you are, friend. I know that you and Jeff got the cars ready for movement, and on Sunday, the actual move took place.
So we get to Sunday, eh? Yup. I was called on by Jeff to assist in the movement of 1349. I came early to do what I know best, and that is to continuously chop off the R17's old paint. 5 o'clock, Jeff was ready. Quonset Barn 1 was cleared by the operators for us. 629 and 775 were on 13 track. I cleared any obstructions near the R17, and Jeff chraged the R17 up. The car was jumpered out, and I held 600 volts in my hands. Risky? Yeah, it's risky, but injury is minimized when you take the proper precautions. Once the jumper was off, we continued out the door, back poling with SMEE (I was watching the pole and made sure it didn't slip off the wire). The car proceeded to Beacon, changed ends and I took the car back to the clear post between Barns 3 and 5. Jeff was kind enough to give me a SMEE car lesson. I dumped the car and went into Barn 6, and Jeff got the Hi-V and 1349 ready. I haven't been in Barn 6 much, so Jeff gave me the grand tour, including a look at the Mineola. Even with wear and tear, I'd say the car is still elegant! Absolutely. Belmont's desk is still intact and the President's throne (a toilet is a man's personal throne) is still in position. I see good things coming for the Mineola.
Now was the tricky part. Out comes 3662 with 1349 in tow. Incredible! I didn't think we'd get around the loop, but somehow we did. A tow bar did the trick, otherwise there's no way we could have made it. Being in the front of a BU was a thrill, since I was basically protecting the consist with Jeff operating from other than the head end with the Hi-V (the man has skill). We did get a dewirement at least one occasion. Leave it to me. The pole went back up and the consist was off and running. 1349 was dropped and we headed back to Barn 6. I hope 1349 can at least be partly functional. 1227 and 1349 would make a nice couple - one in a shade of red, the other in a shade of green.
I did get to operate the Hi-V briefly. Let me say that this is a peculiar car. How many more cars do you know that have a controller that winds all the way around without the feel of the points????
This will be a most memorable day.
-Stef
Say, Stef, what exactly was this SMEE lesson you speak of? Just curious.
I'd like to have a first-hand demonstation of AMUE operation, as done on 1689. Then I'll know what positions the brake valve is in when the familiar "tchh-hsss" lap-release sound is heard.
I got to learn how to handle the R17. She might as well be the least difficult RT car to operate on Branford's rails. The valve is self-lapping. There is no neutral (lap) position on the brake as found in many streetcars. I had absolutely no troulbe in operating. My only difficulty was when I put the handle in to charge up the SMEE, I pushed it too far, putting the car in emregency.
This is the benefit of being a volunteer. You just take it all in...
1689 is just another car that I'd like to fool around with, given the opportunity. Stop in sometime if you can.
-Stef
If the truth be known, I'd rather work the trigger boxes on 1689, but would love to have a chance to run it. Not to mention putting a tape recorder on the floor while doing so, to capture the moans and groans I remember so well. If I find myself in Connecticut one of these days, I will drop by. I guarantee that if I had remained back east, I would be there each and every weekend.
From what I gather, SMEE is easier to master than AMUE for the very reason SMEE features self-lapping brakes.
[ during the NY in June event, the
Hi-V/Lo-V lashup ended with 3662's rope getting snagged on 5466 as the
Lo-V was moving away. Nothing major happened, but the rope snapped and
the trolley pole on 3662 started bouncing up and down ]
Ah yes, now I remember that incident. I think I was in the back putting 1227 away and was wondering why Jeff was taking so long with 3662, which was to follow 1227 into barn 6 on 62 track.
In that case, it certainly wouldn't be called a collision, in any usage of that word. A collision is usually when two objects come into contact. With vehicles, it is usually unintended. In this case, however, the objects remained in contact after there was desire for them to do so.
Kind of an anti-collision, eh?
Besides, no NY days event is complete without several trips onto the roofs of cars for some pole issue or another. It's part of the fun.
So that's why you were so eager to go up there. Jeff looked a little nervious while you were having fun ;-) Mr t
Can someone tell me if in fact Branford trolly
museum had a collision involving the R-4 and the
R-17 and if there was a second collision that same day invoving the Hi-V? This happened approx
two weeks ago.
This is absolute nonsense. We don't even have an R-4.
I'm not sure how rumors like this get started. The only
thing remotely resembling a factual origin was a scrape-by
between the R-9 and R-17 two years ago. It occurred
at 1 MPH and the extent of the damage was some green paint on
the R-17's pan gate and some black paint on the R-9's belt rail.
The Hi-V has never collided with anything unless you consider
coupling a collision.
As someone mentioned, there was an unfortunate rear-end
collision at a different Connecticut trolley museum last week.
I don't think any CERy regulars read this discussion group, so
you probably won't find any first-hand info here.
At least BMT standard 2775 has been minding its own business of late and hasn't gotten into any scrapes. Is it still camped out next to SIRT 388?
I'd be more concerned with North Shore 709. It's as formidable as 2775, and it runs. At least it did in 1980.
[ I'd be more concerned with North Shore 709. It's as formidable as 2775, and it runs. At least it did in 1980. ]
It runs today. It was used to tow 1349 out of the barn on Saturday. It has some mechanical problems which preclude it's use in passenger service, but it is able to get all of it's 105,000 lbs moving around just fine. (not to mention towing the additional 70,000+ lbs of 1349).
We're sorry, but we can no longer allow smoking in the smoking section of the car. :)
At Seashore, both #420 and #755 are operational (our dining car, #415, is a non-motorized trailer). They don't make it into passenger service frequently, as they are hot in the summer, and also are very thirsty for power! They barely make it around our Visitor Center Loop (it takes about three points of power, and try not to stop!), but they can sure move -- especially on our downhill, inbound run. (We don't have GTs, but we do have a safety stop at the bottom of the hill.) These two cars are good for teaching people how to couple/uncouple and set-up train air. I gave some lessons last fall... hopefully we'll do it again this year.
Ahh, Todd, but the real question is, do you permit smoking in the smoking section :).
I recently visited IRM over the July 4th holiday, and the fine people over there graciously offered me the handles to their North Shore train, as well as a couple of 4000-series CTA el cars.
The North Shore cars really do move, although they manage to hold themselves back and only go into series-shunt in PAX service. The CTA cars were interesting also.
The 4000 series control was interesting. It has 5 positions, coast, 1'st point (switching), series (automatic accel), transition (first parallel point), and parallel (automatic accel). Basically like that on the subways, except for the added point called "transition".
They don't allow smoking in the smoking section either.
No, we don't allow smoking at Seashore, either. Not in the 'smoking section' of the cars, nor anywhere else for that matter!
I visited IRM about five years ago, and got to run their North Shore train as well. I'd highly recommend a visit there for anyone in the area!!
Boston's older subway cars are also interesting whith C-26C controller. Brake handle is on the left with seven positions:
Release
Electric Lap (Pneumatic Release)
Electric Apply (Pneumatic Lap)
Lap
Service
Fast Service
Emergency
Controller is on the right with seven positions.
Reverse Series
Reverse Switching
Off
Forward Switching
Forward Series
Forward Transition
Forward Parallel
Cars have field taps but they are automatic in parallel, no option.
1924 East Boston Cars have rheostatic PC-5 control, CJ-129 controller with separate reverser and four positions in the normal clockwise orientation:
Off
Switching
Parallel
Field Shunt
Brake valve is a standard SMEE unit.
Newer stuff is Cineston Control
I visited IRM three years ago. They had an interurban car on the mainline that day (don't remember whose), plus CSL matchbox streetcar 1374 on the loop track. My dream is to be there when the 4000s or any of the North Shore equipment is running on the mainline (especially the Electroliner), and Green Hornet 4391 is on the loop track. They have several South Shore cars, but I'm not sure if any of them run. Being from South Bend, I remember them well.
The North Shore was the epitome of high-speed interurban running. Those cars were capable of 90 mph, and could do just that on the Skokie Valley route.
BTW, what sort of sounds do the 4000s give off? I would imagine they moan and groan the way the R-1/9s did.
I managed to ride IRM's North Shore Line train back in 1992 while stationed in Great Lakes, Il. I think it was 160 and 714? But later in the day IRM brought out a two car train of CTA 4000's , to me they sounded just like the Low V at Branford.
Shore Line has #4280; I don't believe it runs. At least I've never seen it on the main line. The yellow area around the windows was painted back in 1980, and one of its route signs said Lake B. I saw the 4000s on the Evanston Express several times, but never rode them.
[ Shore Line has #4280; I don't believe it runs. ]
Unfortunately, it does not. I believe the story is that those involved in it's transportation decided it would be cheaper to remove all of the underfloor equipment, not just the trucks, but the compressor, brake cylinder/valves, control gear etc, so that it could be transported more easily. I think it is sitting on it's own trucks now, but nothing is currently wired.
It is unfortunate, because it could be a very good representative of a historically significant class of equipment, as well as the storied Chicago el.
Thanx, Jeff. That fills in more than the Hartford paper even metioned.
A rear-ender makes more sense on a railway that is essentially straight as the proverbial arrow. It's still unfortunate, and should stand as another "wake-up" for all of us in the operating theater. It can happen, any time, anywhere, to the best instructed and regulated property. The New Orleans PT's only have 2 25hp motors (AFAIK), so it interesting to learn exactly how fast 832 was moving before the accident, and where it occurred.
The CTM NO car is actually 836 and has 2 65HP motors. The story I heard was that the car lost its air. It struck an open car, whose bumper was well above its own, thus the dislodged controller and injury. Frankly, this is something which I don't want to see happen to any museum, but the loss of the NO car at CTM is particularly distressing, since they don't have the reserve fleet that STM and SLTM have. 836 is a big part of their day-to-day operation. Conn 1326, IT 451, and a couple of worn out Montreal cars are about all there is for servicable closed cars, and none of those are as reliable as the 836.
I don't want to post any theories why this happened but I have an idea. E-mail me and I will share privately.
It seems that especially with the opening of the 63rd St. Tunnel, there is an opportunity in the near future to improve service to and from the F start/end point at 179th St. My idea would be to have one route, either the G or the R, go all the way to 179 making all local stops...the F could then be turned into a real express ALL the way through Queens, so that you could skip the stops the F now makes betwwen 179th St. and where it starts its first express run in Queens, because those would be covered by the local.
What do you think?
The R did that after the Archer Avenue extension opened in 1988, and was later cut back to 71/Continental.
-Hank
The reason they (MTA) canceled the R to 179th Street, it did not run frequently. And, on top of that, they was many delays after this service was instituted.
It would have been much better to couple the G with the R to 179th Street. However, the passenger flow after 71st Street/Continental did not warrent that kind of service.
Maybe when the 63rd Street Tunnel is completed, MTA can run the Q as local from 71st St. Continental or 179th Street. On the other hand, the F can once again become the Express.
E - No changes, except, exp. from 71st to Jamaica Ctr all the times.
F- Exp. from 71st St. to 179st Everyday 6AM-12AM. Uses 63rd St. Tunnel during night periods.
G - Rush hours only: to 71st Street
R - Except Nights: 71st Street
Q - Exp from 21st St. to 71st St. Continental then local to 179th St.
Comments Welcome
I don't think the Queens express tracks have the capacity for added Q service. Extension of the new line, plus the R past 71st Ave. should suffice. It does for all the stops past Continental Ave. today.
Why?
Remember the Q runs on Sixth Avenue. Therefore, my suggest is to reduce service on the E and F lines to accomodate the additional serive; Q line. This will give passengers two options to access 6th Avenue reducing the need for the F line. Besides earlier the R has proven to be a very bad choice because of delays and in frequent service.
The G and R is fine the way it is (unless both the R and Q run local to 179th Street from 71st Continental. Both lines are under utilized and passengers prefer to use the express.
Another example of three services can be found on 6th Avenue B, D, and Q. Mongatose Tunnel M, N, R. And between dekalb Avenue and Pacific Street: M, N, R.
They all work very well because: M is schedule for every 8 minutes, N 6.5 minutes, and R 6.5 minutes. Station waiting time is approximately 2 minutes.
The F currently runs every 2.5 minutes while the E runs every 5 minutes. It too can run every 5 minutes.
N Broadway Local
It still makes no sense to put another train on the express tracks when the only local going to Jamaica (R) has been proven to be inadequate. Leaving E/F capacity at present levels during rush hours and extending the R as well as whatever the 63rd st line will be (it's not definate it's the Q yet) out to 179th St. should be more than adequate.
[ It still makes no sense to put another train on the express tracks
when the only local going to Jamaica (R) has been proven to be
inadequate. Leaving E/F capacity at present levels during rush hours
and extending the R as well as whatever the 63rd st line will be (it's
Huh? The R doesn't go to Jamaica now.
Anyways, the current status of the line any time I've been on it (Last time on Friday), has been that the locals are mostly empty, but the expresses are packed.
It therefore appears that there's enough local service now, but not enough express service to meet current demands. If you can't increase service, maybe some kind of skip-stop service on the local track would work.
I was referring to a plan by another person which would have the R as being the only train going local east of Continental, and idea that was tried and abandoned.
And that person wasn't me Chris!
Chris, can you read?! Who ever says the R should be the only local? That would be rediculous! Three alternatives: Both G/R to 179th Street, or, Q local after 71st Street Continental. And F service local all stops.
N Broadway Local
Again, it creates a bottleneck. And it assumes the Q will be running through 63rd. St. in 2001. Running the Q (I will refer to whatever train they route through 63rd. St to queens as the Q from now on for convenience) local entirely, along with the R local increases service, creates no bottlenecks with trains switching in front of the other (except at 36th, where the 63rd st line meets the Queens Blvd line) and increases service all the way out to Jamaica.
Then the Q should run via Bway to Lex. Knock down that wall over there.
Not a bad idea. That station will become more heavily used when the connection in Queens opens up in 2 years and having just one line might not be enough to satisfy demand.
Your plan already proved to be worthless, Chris. Two points. We all know the R is under utilized when leaving the Queens Plaza station going towards the Manhattan direction. Why? Because people have it in their mind that the express is faster than the local. It depends on where your station is. For example, if you board a local at Northern Blvd, your chances of using the E and F is slimmer if you use it at Roosevelt Avenue or 71st Street Continental. Therefore, doesn't it may sense to have the Q as express, at least to 71st Street? Being that it's a Six Avenue Express, people will be even more encourage to use the new service (Q).
What if the MTA decides to fix the Manhattan Bridge and provides express service on Broadway? Wouldn't it be stupid to have two broadway locals running in Queens? Yes, because, it would not do nothing to reduce overcrowding on the E and F lines. As result, money and time building the new tunnel will go to waste, Chris.
Yes, maybe a few passengers using the 53rd Street tunnel might be inconvenience (Please refer to my earlier post for the solution). However, the benefit of having this service prevails.
N Broadway Local
The Q will eventually be back on Broadway EXPRESS (so, who will go to 57/6?) and, this is THE ONLY already known service change for the 63 St. Connection: The G will run to Court Square 24/7. And running 2 Broadway OR Sixth Avenue trains on the Queens Boulevard line is just as useless as having a local that doesn't go to Manhattan.
Your plan is too complicated and it assumes a fact that isn't know today, that the Q will be the train to run in Queens via 6th Ave. I've heard plans that suggest it might be the V, going local in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn to Church Ave.
Your plan has 2 major flaws: it bottlenecks the E/F line as it is with an extra line put on the express tracks. Cutting service on the F line in Queens also affects riders in Brooklyn as well.
One of the major concerns that led to the cut-back of R service to Continental Ave. in 1992 was that the R line was inadequate at providing service to the local stops eastm of Continental. It was for that reaso that it was cut back and the F routed as a local all the time. Your plan would leave these stations served by the R only, something which failed miserably. My idea has all Queens local stations served by 2 trains that go into Manhattan. That, along with the increased service to Jamaica and the restoration of F express service on Hillside Ave. accounts for a major (25%) increase in service to Manhattan west of Continental Ave and an even bigger (75%) increase east of Continental.
The final flaw in your plan is also the biggest: Taking Q trains out of service at Continental creates a HUGE bottleneck there as train crews have to hold the train there to make sure it's completely empty before it can be switched over to the relay tracks. This would back up E/F trains all the way to Roosevelt Ave. during rush hours.
LET IT BE THE F LOCAL QUEENS PLAZA OR 179th STREET), CHRISSS!!! IT HAS MORE SCHEDULE TIME THAN THE REST OF THEM (E, F, G, Q, N, R)!!!
[The final flaw in your plan is also the biggest: Taking Q trains out of service at Continental creates a HUGE bottleneck there as train crews have to hold the train
there to make sure it's completely empty before it can be switched over to the relay tracks. This would back up E/F trains all the way to Roosevelt Ave. during rush hours.]
I propose a new proposal for the MTA to FINE people who are left on trains. This will encourage people to get off the train when they are instructed.
Chris, you have no case! What about the time when the R was running all the way to 179th Street and the G terminating at 71st Street? It worked right? Why wouldn't it work with the E scheduled for 5 minute intervals. That's if the F is local.
[Your plan has 2 major flaws: it bottlenecks the E/F line as it is with an extra line put on the express tracks. Cutting service on the F line in Queens also affects riders
in Brooklyn as well.]
Extend the G to Kings Hwy. Run F express/local service.
Good bye!
N Broadway Local
Please calm down. This isn't a war.
Fining people won't work because you still have to hold trains at Continental to check to see if they're empty. This already causes a bottleneck on the local tracks, as trains wait for other trains in front of them to discharge, check for people who may still be on the train, then leave the station. It would be a nightmare on the more heavily used express tracks.
Any attempt at using the G to offset service cuts on the F line will cause a war in Brooklyn. That's the reason F express service from Church to Bergen was discontinued after only 5 years of service in the late 60's-early 70's.
Why do they care if people are on the train when it goes through the realay if it's not going into storage? I mean, last I knew, City Hall wasn't just east of 71-Continental. So no worries about someone messing with the mayor.
Because not all trains go back into service, and even more have a substantial wait as the train descends down the relay tracks and switches over to the southbound track. Can you imagine the opportunities that would give to graffitti and other vandals?
The problem with the whole situation is when the MTA scrubbed their original plan for a Queens super-express and opted for the 63rd St. connector they were left with only two options for local service when the decision was made to cut the G back.
1.) returning the Q to Broadway and running it as a local through 63rd St. and then express in Manhattan (assuming the bridge is fixed), giving passengers at the local stations between 71st Continental and 36th St. a choice between one Broadway train or another Broadway train.
2.) Keep the Q (or the V or the B or whatever) on Sixth Ave. and run that through 63rd St., which would create the strange situation of the local becomming an express in Manhattan while the express in Queens, the F, runs local in Manhattan -- which I think would be a first for the subway system.
Based on the repair job on the Manhattan Bridge and the prefrence by the MTA to run as many trains as possible down Sixth Ave., I'll bet they decide on option 2.
J Lee, number 2 doesn't address the overcrowding situation at Queens Plaza. It only confuses things even more.
J Lee, you don't think it would be good to have the F as local and Q as express? This will provide local passengers a one seat ride via 6th Avenue. While the Q, if it is on 6th Avenue, reduce overcrowding on the F.
If on Broadway, it would reduce overcrowding on the R (like anyone cares - it's under used anyways.) But it might reduce overcrowding at the 59th Street Lexington Station. That station is a real horror.
I should know.
N Broadway Local
I don't think either option is an ideal solution, I just think those are the two most likely ones the TA has.
The Q belongs on Broadway, but as was pointed out in another post, running only the Q through the 63rd St. tunnel means the B will have to at least terminate at 57th and 6th in order for that station to have any service at all. That leaves the option of terminating the Q at 57th and 7th (again, if the bridge is ever finished) and running either the B or some newly-created V train through 63rd St. via Sixth Ave. to run as a Queens local and as either a local or express on Sixth Ave.
Either way, there will be two lines that split off from each other in midtown Manhattan, cross the river 10 blocks apart and reunite just past Queens Plaza.
Can they run both along the Queens Blvd Line, J Lee?
Thanks to the Manhattan Bridge closure, the MTA has been forced to put three lines on a single track with the B/D/Q between DeKalb and 47th-50th and the N/R/M from Pacific Street through the Montague St. tunnel, but that's not an ideal situation. Having three lines (the R, Q and whatever the new Sixth Ave. line is lettered) sharing the same trackage from Continental Ave. to 36th St. would also limit the number of trains each line could run during rush hours.
If they did it -- and combined with the NIMBYs in Astoria fighting the N extension to LaGuardia Airport, I'd like to see the MTA come up with an alterative route that would split off from the local track just before it reunites with the express tracks at Northern Blvd. and Broadway, and from there follow the BQE north to LaGuardia.
The line would be underground at least until it got in the vicinity of LGA, so the NIMBY problem with the above-ground extension in Astoria would be avoided, and it would allow two lines from Queens to use the 63rd St. tunnel into Manhattan, which will still be under-used in the future, even after the connector is opened.
The cost and disruption of building a several-mile subway would be so great that it would doom the proposal. I'm pretty sure the connection will come from Ditmars or not at all. Personally, I'd like to see it extended past LaGuardia to Shea, and into the Flushing Yard.
Actually, depending on how quickly (or if at all) they were to drop the N underground after Ditmars, the distance from the end of the N line to LGA is less than a half mile longer than the distance from Northern Blvd. and Broadway.
Of course, if they did plan to keep the N line above ground all the way to LGA, then the cost would be much lower. I was just thinking the NIMBY factor would be less if you ran the line under the BQE right of way or along the service road.
True, but there is capacity on the Astoria line -- more than on the Queens Blvd. line. By using the Astoria line, you could have more trains, benefitting both Astoria (aside from the cranky NIMBYS) and the airport. I think the Queens Line needs two locals to Manhattan out to 71st St at least.
How to use 63rd St tunnel? My (expensive) solution is to connect the G to to the 53rd St tunnel, and to Jay St, and run it as a loop. The F would shift to 63rd St, along with the second Queens Blvd local. With G riders no longer transferring, another source of crowding would be removed from the Queens (and Fulton St) lines, and G riders would have better service. It would be an indirect service improvement for Queens.
Can they run both (B and Q) along the Queens Blvd Line, J Lee?
It might work in non-rush hours, but shifting the B off CPW would take away the Concourse local during AM and PM rush from the D line, and you'd have people in the Bronx upset.
Like it use to be: Two B services. One to the Bronx, another to Queens.
Which would mean a 50% service cut to both boros and considerable confusion. It's bad enough that people who want to get to JFK get confused with the 2 A trains in Queens and end up going to Lefferts. Running 2 B lines in Manhattan would cause the same problem, only it would affect a LOT more people.
If I were to work for the MTA, here's how I'd sort things out:
E Train: Express service to Jamaica Center at All Times.
F Train: Rush Hours and Middays- Express service to 179th Street/Jamaica, including the express stops from Union Turnpike to 179th Street.
Evenings and Weekends- Express service to 71st/Continental, Local service to 179th Street.
Late Nights- Local service via 63rd Street Tunnel to 179th Street.
G Train: Terminates at Court Square at all times. Passengers must change at 23rd Street/Ely Avenue for continuing service.
R Train: Rush Hours and Middays- Local service to 179th Street.
Evenings and Weekends- Local service to 71st/Continental.
Late Nights- Runs in Brooklyn.
Q Train: Rush Hours- Express service via 63rd Street Tunnel to 71st/Continental. (Stops in Queens would be 21st/Queensbridge, Roosevelt Avenue and 71st/Continental.)
Middays and Evenings- Local service via 63rd Street Tunnel to 71st/Continental.
Late Nights and Weekends- Does not operate.
To facilitate this, call-on routing buttons will be necessary at some stations, such as Roosevelt Avenue.
Comments or Suggestions on this idea?
This would leave all local stops east of 71st. Ave served only by the R during the week. That's been tried, and it's failed. The R, along with whatever train operates through 63rd st. should run local all the way to 179th St. This should provide adequate local service along the entire line.
Thanks, Chris. Perhaps a more simpler setup, per your suggestion:
Q Train: Rush Hours and Middays- Local service via 63rd Street Tunnel to 179th street.
Evenings- Local service via 63rd Street Tunnel to 71st/Continental.
Late Nights and Weekends- Does not operate.
So under this idea, all stations east of 71st Street would be served by the Q and R trains during Rush and Midday, and by the F during the Evening. In addition, all stations west of it would get adequate local service.
Once again this is only an idea...
Why Jose? Aren't the Broadway people important as well?????
N Broadway Local
Yes, a simple idea which causes no serious bottlenecks anywhere along the very crowded Queens Blvd. line.
When the Queens Plaza Hookup is completed, will the interlockings up to 36th street be controlled by the tower at Queens Plaza?
I also imagine that for routing to the 21st Street station, call-ons will be necessary at 36th Street (local line) and Roosevelt Avenue (express line)?
[R Train: Rush Hours and Middays- Local service to 179th Street.
Evenings and Weekends- Local service to 71st/Continental.
Late Nights- Runs in Brooklyn.]
Already proven to be inadequate, jose. Besides, even more people would be affected. Since you stated terminating the G at court Street.
Another idea could be the F local to 179th Street. (This will definately reduce overcrowding on the 53rd Streeet lines and provide local passenger with better service.) G pushed back to Court Street. No changes on the E except providing express from Jamaica Van Wyck to Queens Plaza all the times. And last, but not least, instituting a new Q express (via 63rd Street tunnel)to 179th Street Weekdays 6AM - 9PM. B, Weekends and evenings/no nights.
What about the B train?
Here is my proposal...
F:179st. to the 63rd St. connection express as it is right now.
E:Stay the same
R:71st st. to 63rd. St. Connection to 7th Ave. with the N
G:Terminal at Court Sq. at night
Q:Go to 179st.
Already proven to be inadequate, jose. Besides,
even more people would be affected. Since you stated
terminating the G at court Street.
Thats why an additional local train is needed to
provide service should express service be restored
on Hillside Ave.
Another idea could be the F local to 179th Street.
(This will definately reduce overcrowding on the
53rd Streeet lines and provide local passenger with
better service.) G pushed back to Court Street. No
changes on the E except providing express from
Jamaica Van Wyck to Queens Plaza all the times. And
last, but not least, instituting a new Q express
(via 63rd Street tunnel)to 179th Street Weekdays 6AM
This also creates a bottleneck at 36th St, where the Q would have to merge with 2 highly used lines, and another at Continental as E and F trains wait for train crews to verify that all trains are empty before allowing them to be switched to the relay tracks.
Please also remember that the Q will probably NOT be the train that services the 63rd st line in 2001 if the Manhattan Bridge 6th Ave tracks are closed.
- 9PM. B, Weekends and evenings/no nights.}
[Please also remember that the Q will probably NOT be the train that services the 63rd st line in 2001 if the Manhattan Bridge 6th Ave tracks are closed.
- 9PM. B, Weekends and evenings/no nights.}]
It would be stupid if they didn't. Both routes feeds right into the 63rd Tunnel (Broadway and 6th Avenue).
The Broadway line was not intended to use the 63rd. St tunnel to queens. The 6th Ave. line was. The line was set up in such a way as to have any Broadway trains going north of 57th/7th to run on the not-as-yet-built 2nd ave. line. Even if the Broadway Q was routed through to Queens it would leave the 57th/6th st. station without any service. Whatever service that runs through to Queens will definatley be on 6th Ave.
So far the MTA doesn't seem to be doing anything with the Manhattan Bridge. Therefore, the Q on Broadway is unlikely. And besides, I'm just hearing people talking about building the Second Avenue Line, not action.
Don't mistake me, I would love to see the Q back on Broadway. However, it's not a reality right now.
The Q will remain on Broadway for a while; even after the 63rd tunnel is completed. So lets stop dreaming of the new "V" line.
N Broadway Local
No, work is progressing, albeit slowly. The Bway side work is cheduled to be complete in 2001 around the tine the connection opens. The Bridge work will probably be totally complete in 2003.
So if this is true, then in 2001, the Q via Broadway will probably only go to 57th, because you will also have two other express services: the other Brighton service, which usually also goes to 57th, and the West End, which goes to Astoria. If they send one of these to Queens, there will be no other place to turn the other, and I don't see them sending both into Queens. So the new line would be the V, which will probably go local, giving the local riders direct service to 6th Av without having to change (transfers are a big source of crowding on the platforms and slowing down of service at places like Queens Plaza). They are not yet decided whether it will go to 71st or 179th.
In 2003, perhaps they can extend the Q via Broadway, as an express, and switch it over to local after 71st (like the F now). That way, the local riders out there won't lose their express run after 71st. (The real reason they didn't like the R service)
Also keep in mind, that if none of these plans work, there is a second phase of service improvement: reverse direction express service on the non-peak express track! (they are to be resignaled). So there woul be 3 tracks (two express, one local) in the peak direction. This was the ultimate plan for the line)
When Archer Avenue first opened and we only had R service at Van Wyck, it was a disaster. The Briarwood Community Organization and others fought to get the F service back. The local stations between 179th and 71st Ave (Except for 75th Avenue) are very crowded. Any change would have to guarantee that the wait time in the morning is no more than 4 minutes or there will be a rebellion!
[When Archer Avenue first opened and we only had R service at Van Wyck, it was a disaster. The Briarwood Community Organization and others fought to get the F service back. The local stations between 179th and 71st Ave (Except for 75th Avenue) are very crowded. Any change would have to guarantee that the wait time in the morning is no more than 4 minutes or there will be a rebellion!]
My observation. The Q line can be schedule to run every 4-5 minutes. However, that would mean cutting the running time for the F from 2.5 minutes to 5 minutes during rush hours.
Since most people favor the G terminating at Court Square, wouldn't it make since to have the F as local and Q as express? I just can't see the Q as local since it's express on sixth Avenue. And if the MTA ever fix the Manhattan Bridge, it will also be redudant to have two broadway locals. Maybe they can include the B (63rd Division) as express to 179th and the Broadway lines to 71st Street. Possibly the Q to Jamaica Center?
B/6th Avenue Express (63rd Tunnel) to 179th Street express via Queens Blvd.
E/8th Avenue Local to Jamaica Center express via Queens Blvd
F/6th Avenue Local to 179th Street local via Queens Blvd.
G/Crosstown Local to Court Square all the times.
N/Broadway Local (Manhattan Bridge) to Astoria.
Q/Broadway Express (63rd Tunnel) to 71st Continental Ave. (possible Jamaica Center(what everybody thinks?)) Express via Queens Blvd.
R/Broadway Local to 71st Continental Ave. Local via Queens Blvd.
Running times.
B - 4 minutes
E - 4 minutes
F - 5 minutes
G - 10 minutes
N - 3 minutes
7 - 2 minutes
Q - 4 minutes
R - 6.5 minutes
N Broadway Local
<can't see the Q as local since it's express on sixth Avenue>>
The problem is the flying junction at past Rockefeller Center only allows Sixth Ave. locals to operate through the 53rd St. tunnel, which then feeds directly into the Queens Blvd. express tracks.
The 63rd St. tunnel can run both locals and expresses on Sixth, which gives the MTA the option of either one local (the F) and one express (B, Q, V, or any other open letter) along Sixth Ave., or two Sixth Ave. locals, say the F and the V.
Having the Queens local and the Queens express both end up on the same track in Manhattan would seem to defeat the purpose of the 63rd St. bypass. But on the positive side, doing that, and running both lines through the Rutgers tunnel, would allow the MTA to run one of those lines as an express between Jay St. and Church Ave., and run the other as a local. That would still give people in Carroll Gardens a one seat ride into Manhattan (though I would keep the F as a local -- even if the new line ran the exact same route into Manhattan, there would still be complaints about the F not stopping there anymore)
Actually, the R was extended to 179th St. in 1988 after the E was rerouted to Jamaica Center. People who used the local stops whined about waiting forever for R trains, and this service was decreased to rush hour only 2 years later. It was discontinued alltogether in 1992.
Perhaps when the 63rd St. line opens in 2 years they can make 179th st the terminal for ALL queens locals, both the R and whatever the new train will be (V, Q, B, ?). 179th st should be able to handle turning around all of those trains with its double-decked relay tracks north of the station.
For all of you Subtalkers who want to see the upcomeing (OC) and (P) Exams and want to look at all the answer keys. Please note the Conductors answers will probably come out tomorrow. Go to the following site
www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dcas/html/employ.html
I just remembered another tower that is extremely rarely used(That phrase sounds redundent but it's not....it is rare). York Street on the F line at the Rutgers tube.
Typically, how wide does a street have to be for a two track subway to be under it on one level.
I ask this because a few sections of the subway(Fulton St on the Nassau BMT and the Lexington IRT between 51st and 125th Streets for instance) are bi-level. Is that the case?
And if so, why are 103rd and 110th St stations on the Lexington line one level?
The Lexington Ave line being bi-level has more to do with the topography of that part of manhattan than the width of Lexington Ave. itself. I believe, reading the page about the Triborough System proposal of 1911 that's on this website, which details the Lexington Ave. line states that if the line were one level the grade level would fluctuate too much for adequate service.
Most New York City streets are 60, 80, or 100 feet wide (including the sidewalks). Sixty feet gets you one lane, one way, two parking lanes and sidewalks. Eighty feet gets you one lane each way, two parking lanes and sidewalks. One hundred feet gets you two moving lanes each way, two parking lanes, and parking.
Most subways are on 100 foot wide streets. That includes Els -- there is usually one lane moving lane each way between the pillars, one moving lane each way outside the pillars, and two parking lanes. But Fulton Street is not that wide -- it is just 80 feet. So I guess you can have a four track subway on an 80 foot ROW.
Unfortunately, 100 foot wide streets are thin on the ground, especially in older parts of Brooklyn. Wider streets, which allow turn lanes, are even harder to come by.
[Most New York City streets are 60, 80, or 100 feet wide (including the sidewalks). Sixty feet gets you one lane, one way, two parking lanes and sidewalks.]
In theory. In practice, sixty feet gets you sidewalks, two parking lanes, and a place for trucks to double park in the middle.
For the Nassau Street line, the street is narrow, only about 30 feet I think at the narrowest point, so it would have been wide enough for a conventional two-track line without station platforms. Obviously, stations are also important so that is why it went to two levels despite the complexity of the junction with the Fulton Street (8 Av) subway at Broadway-Nassau
Had it not been for the thread-the-needle job at 34th St. and 6th Ave., the Fulton St. station at Nassau probably would have qualified as the toughest subway segment to build. It certainly wasn't cheap - $10 million in 1931 dollars for a stretch which is less than a mile long.
I live in upstate ny. I haven't been to nyc since long time. I was wondering if u guys can help me with the subway routes from grand central to laguardia airport. I have been looking for the subway routes since last week on the web. I would appreciate it if you sent it to me as soon as possible.
thank you
Tejas
[I live in upstate ny. I haven't been to nyc since long time. I was wondering if u guys can help me with the subway routes from grand central to laguardia airport. I have been looking for the subway routes since last week on the web. I would appreciate it if you sent it to me as soon as possible.]
7 train to 74th, then Q33 bus.
Or go to 125st Metro North Station and take M60 bus to Laguardia Airport.
Peace Out
Meaney
Here, according to my union "representative," is what happened when DC 37 tried to negotiate Transit Chek for city employees. Under the proposal, the city would have kicked in nothing but administrative costs, and employees would have received a tax break mostly at federal expense.
The City demanded drug testing and a reduction in per diem payments (were supposed to get paid for something but I don't know what it is).
The Union said no.
The issue died.
The Union put the interests of drug abusers above my interested. The City seems to have no interest at all in retaining me, or anyone else, as an employee.
This is the only thing I've ever asked those S.O.B.s for in all my years. Six hundred dollars a year in dues!
[Here, according to my union "representative," is what happened when DC 37 tried to negotiate Transit Chek for city employees. Under the proposal, the city would have kicked in nothing but administrative costs, and employees would have received a tax break mostly at federal expense.
The City demanded drug testing and a reduction in per diem payments (were supposed to get paid for something but I don't know what it is).
The Union said no.
The issue died.
The Union put the interests of drug abusers above my interested. The City seems to have no interest at all in retaining me, or anyone else, as an employee.]
I don't blame the union. Drug testing has absolutely nothing to do with Transit Check. By demanding drug testing, the city was trying to show the workers who's boss (I'm excluding safety-related jobs, such as in transit, where there presumably are drug testing requirements already). Holding Transit Check hostage to that ridiculous requirement was an absuse of the city's power. Idiots.
(Unreasonable for the city to hold Transit Chek hostage to drug testing -- idiots).
Its enough to make me want to join a union. Unfortunately, the city already forced me to join something that calls itself a union, and I can't afford two sets of dues.
If this were labor talk I would point out that most cities support the transit system with tax dollars anyway so if they pay for fares of the dreaded subsidy word they pay one way or the other so what difference does it make.
For the City the example that it sets by providing transit fares for its employees would send a significant message to private sector employees that its OK to use transit.
Paid parking for employees is 100% decuctable but who gets paid parking in Manhattan? Transit fares paid by the employer have a limit on how high it can go. It used to be $65.00 per mo. but I think it went up last year. Subsidies for the middle class come harder than for the top floor.
(Who gets paid parking in Manhattan)?
People with permits to park on the street -- given out as benies to the city elite -- account for 14 percent of those driving into Manhattan, according to a DCP study. That's why you won't see tolls on those East River Bridges. All these public officials drive in for free.
Then there are the city playgrounds converted to parking lots in poor neighborhoods, so the staff can park and the kids can't play. And the blocks reserved for parking near police and fire stations -- and the double and triple parking with no tickets.
But can they let me buy my own Metrocard through the Transit Chek program? No!!!
I rode the D train recently between 59 Street and Yankee Stadium. Between 59 Street and 125 street, the train traveled very fast, I'd say 40-50 m.p.h. I don't know why it travels so fast, since there is a lot of traffic on that particular line. It travels nonstop to 125 street. I reached 125 street in only 3 minutes.
Mike S. Maybe you mean the A express. Never in my life did I every experience a fast ride on the D "express".
N Broadway Local
For an "express" train, the D runs terrible. I could take a local and end up where i have to be faster than if I take the D train.
Those R-68s make an express run on the D about as exciting as watching paint dry. Boooooooorrriiiiinnnnng!!
It wasn't always the case on the D, which remains one of my favorite routes. My bulkhead signs are still set to D/Coney Island, although I'll be changing them back to A/Wash. Hts 207th St. soon. I've ridden on D trains of R-1/9s, R-10s (yes, once), R-27s, R-32s, and R-42s, as well as R-68s, and the express dash up CPW was nice and swift. The R-32s made it look easy the way they zoomed along. Even the rush hour jaunt in the Bronx was exciting. Today? Are you kidding?
The had R44s (original #260-399) there too in the 70s, prior to their transfer to the "A" and subsequent GOH. They weren't bad at all, comparable to those on the "F". Estimated top speed of 50, give or take a few MPH.
Wayne
I can't recall seeing any R-44s on the D, but it's possible. I would go out of my way to ride on a rush hour D to the Bronx whenever I was in the city. The way things are now, that tradition may become a thing of the past.
When I was back in New York in October of 1984 after a four-year absence, I caught a D train of pre-GOH R-32s which by then had returned to the route-and-destination sign bulkhead configuration. I was jotting down the green and white marker light combination as it pulled into 125th St., and the motorman looked at me as if to say what the #$%& are you doing? When I told him, he replied the setting should be correct.
Steve made a comment yesterday that most of the express run along CPW is done in the coast mode. It made me think back to the first time I experienced that dash on Nov. 24, 1967, on a prewar D train. It did seem to coast once we got past 81st St., then the motorman applied power after 103rd St. for that uphill run through 110th St. I tell you, those bull and pinion gears sang out a resounding F# above middle C, much the same as that E train in Queens a few months later. That was one nice thing about those old cars - you could always tell if they had power applied or if they were coasting.
In all fairness to the D line, it was a very fast ride until:
1) The R32s, 40s and 42s were replaced with R68s and
2) The powers that be (read Jay street) slowed all the trains down.
Especially damaging is the effect of slowing down the sluggish R68 equipment assigned to the D - and already lacking acceleration as well as speed.
The D's fastest run isn't between 59 street and 125 - too many speed timing devices there. If you want a fast moving D train get on at 34 and take it to West 4th.
The Brighton express version of the D way back when - moved right along too.
As for the section between 59 and 125, keep in mind that the A doesn't do any better there. The A flies from 59 coming downhill into 42 street. And it's also fast through Brooklyn and into the Rockaways.
But it's just about as slow as the D between 59 and 125.
Consider the distance between 59 and 125 - that's about 3.5 miles. To achieve that distance alone in three minutes would require steady instant 70 MPH as 60 MPH is a mile a minute and the distance is more than threee miles.
Bottom line - in the case of the D - it's not the route that's so slow (as with the R line.) It's simply the combination of speed or grade timers and the tampering with speed control by the powers that be at Jay street.
Eventhough the stupid powers to be tampered with the R68s, I notice that they really pick up speed in of all places between Kingsbridge and Fordham Rds while operating as the downtown thru express.
Also, as of lately, I've notice that the R44s are literally flying downtown between 125 and 59th Streets. I don't know if they have done something to enhance the speed on these trains, but I know one thing, in all of the 23 years I have been riding the R44s (and believe me they were not an easy 23 years considering the subway car we are talking about) I have never seen them perform as fast as they have been these past couple of months.
Oh, I wouldn't say the A is just as slow as the D between 59th and 125th going uptown. With the R-44s, it's a valid statement. The R-38s are definitely faster.
Certainly the R38s are faster than the R68s and R44s.
The problem is that during Rush hour when speed really counts, the R38 will be just as slow as the R44s and R68s because they get stuck behind them.
Oh well....what can you do? At least going out to Fulton Street the R38s have a chance to stretch out and run, relatively free from R68s, R44s and Grade Timers (yes, there ARE GTs between Bway_ENY and Evclid BUT they are not set to death-march slow, they kick over at 30-35.)
Wayne
During the PM rush hour 59 Master Tower rerouts at least 5 Brooklyn bound D trains. Express on the local from 145 to 59, to make way for all the extra A trains.
The D line was never a fast line even with the R 40's and 32's. For instance, the D is known for stoping in the tunnel or slowing down. Unfortunately the R68's just make it worse.
I timed the D train last night Sunday August 1 while coming to work. From the time the doors closed at 125th to the time the doors open at 59th street Columbus Circle, and the time was 7 minutes, 24 seconds. I had a stop watch with me.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
In one of my posts AI said running time was a shade over 7 minutes. Looks like you've answered a question I've had for many years:
a shade = 24 seconds or 1 minute = 2.5 shades
#3994 did the same run in 6:33 back in April. Of course, he is an "A" train, and a blueblooded R38. We were hobbled by the usual GTs round 81st/72nd, but otherwise, smooth sailing.
Wayne
When the R-32s first appeared on the D in December of 1967, they were a sight to behold. They zipped effortlessly up CPW, giving the R-10s a run for their money. I like to say the R-10s thundered, the R-32s streaked like lightning, and the R-1/9s howled ass. Back then, the express run was swift, A or D, no matter what equipment was running. The slant R-40s kept up that furious pace when they took over on the A in 1977.
When did the CPW express slow down?
When I first did it earlier this year(I get the train late:)) I rode a D of R-68's(which explains why I was so very disappointed with the ride).
Are the R-38's any good on that stretch?
An express train with a railfan window will always catch my attention(if it's a good express train ;))
As a rule, an R38 will generally outrun an R44. R44 CAN get up to 42-45 or so once it gets up a head of steam. R38s fly on the southbound once clear of the 125th Street curves all the way up to the GTs near 72nd Street. R38 seems to accelerate quicker and hold top end better than R44 or R32. The RF window is a big plus, and the R38 interior is very nicely done, better than the R32.
These are Personal Observations only, and do not reflect actual mechanical conditions or road conditions.
Wayne
"R38s outrunning R44s." That would be true approximately a year ago, but I don't think that is necessarily the case today. For some reason the R44s seem to have picked up some speed, and the R38s, as well as R32s seem to have lost speed.
"R38s outrunning R44s." That would be true approximately a year ago, but I don't think that is necessarily the case today.
For some reason the R44s seem to have picked up some speed, and the R38s, as well as R32s seem to have lost speed.
I agree. Reason could be they was having problems with the R 38's stoping. So they (MTA) had to slow them down.
I remember a time when the uptown A (R38) would fly into the West 4th Street Station. I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT! ALL FOUR CARS OF THE TRAIN WOULD BE AT FULL SPEED BEFORE THE TRAIN SLOWED DOWN. WHILE THE E AND C WILL CREEP INTO THAT STATION.
Unfortunately, that was a long time ago (1992).
Everything is relative. A long time ago for me would be 1967, when we first moved to New Jersey and I learned what it's like to ride on an express, especially an A train of unbeatable R-10s.
Southbound A trains still fly into 42nd St. due to the downhill runaway stretch south of 50th St, although maybe not quite as fast as when the R-10s were around. By comparison, C and E trains pull into 42nd much more slowly. In the good old days, the R-32s would glide in so quietly you could scarcely hear them, whereas the R-1/9s would rumble, snarl, and hiss as they lumbered in.
I still wonder if the R-44s are being hotwired... This fall, I will see and ride for myself.
You mean the E train pulls into that station (42nd Street) very slowly. The C is really fast, however, not as fast as the A because of the 50th Street stop.
The reason why the WTC bound E train enters 42/8 slowly: it has to clear the switch leaving 50 St. lower level. It goes from D3 track to A1 track. By the time the train is completely on A1 track, 42/8 station is about a train length away.
[ I agree. Reason could be they was having problems with the R 38's
stoping. So they (MTA) had to slow them down. ]
I always thought that the 32's (and 38's) had excellent brakes. (but they've been modified since those days).
Anyways, How could they (reasonably) slow these trains down after the Field-shunting modification? The only other reasonable thing to do would be to change gear ratios, which is certainly a non-trivial task!
Changing the acceleration rate would be easier, but this thread seemed to talk about top speed.
PLEASE DON'T COMPARE THE 32'S WITH THE 38'S.
THE 32'S ARE MUCH SLOWER!!!
And they call what we have now - "progress?"
The powers that be seem to think "progress" includes:
- slower trains
- less frequent trains
- more crowding
- elimination of express services (i.e. NX, F Culver Exp, etc..)
- failure of infrastructure (i.e. Manhattan Bridge)
Based on the difference between reality and the perceptions of the powers that be - I suggest we make the highest ranking folks at Jay street go stand in the corner until they come up with some real improvements - or at the least - fix their mistakes.
Better yet - let's make them ride the subway to work and abuse them for any lateness incurred due to subway problems.
When looking at one of this site's track maps, I noticed that the lower level of Bergen St is served by tracks coming from the F line, not accessible by the G unless it backtracked.
What service, if any used those tracks?
The F did, running express during rush hours from 67-75. The line was designed to have the GG serve as the local and the 6th Ave line as an express, which is quite impractical considering the GG didn't go into Manhattan.
So there was always the layout of F trains having the option of going express or local(at the whim of the TA) and the G only going local.
Then did the F change to local at Church Avenue or somewhere before?
What would have been smart would be, if not a direct track connection from the G to the express tracks, at least switches say, south of Bergen, so at least the line that would ideally be running express have the chance do so.
From 67-75 alternate Fs ran rush hour express to Church with the G as local. The G also ran local and terminated at Church, while the alternate Fs south of Church continued as expresses (AM inbound, PM outbound) to Kings Highway.
As has been mentioned in many threads, the people in Carroll Gardens fought the set-up, becuase it either denied them a no-transfer ride into Manhattan (Carroll St.) or made them play a guessing game on which level the F train would come in on first.
When they open 63rd St., if the add a second Queens/Sixth Ave. line, they could run it and the F as locals and expresses on those tracks, which would solve the Carroll Gardens problem.
What does every think about a G express option?
Spare me - an express to nowhere!
What do you mean no where? Since everybody is against the F express, why not the G express. People can be encourage to use the A express at hoyt Street for downtown service. What do you think?
N Broadway Local
With greatly expanded service on the entire Culver line (i.e. at the very least - an additional train route) it would make some sense to make use of the Culver express tracks.
As for the feasibility of running express service on the line - I believe I read in another post here that some of the necesary switches to provide express service from Ditmas on South have been removed.
As for an express G service - I doubt there will ever be enough Crosstown line riders to justify it.
The switch at Kings Highway to allow F trains from Stillwell Ave to use the center track was removed a few years ago. But that doesn't mean it can't be put back.
And if the Manhattan Bridge fails prematurely, having F express and local service would become a reality real quick!
--Mark
The problem is the G has no access to the express tracks before the Fourth Ave. station. The express tracks come in from Jay St. right under the local tracks, and their is a ramp up/down for the F to swtich from the local tracks which come from Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
IMHO, an even better arrangement would have been to build the Bergen St. station as a conventional four-track, two-island express station, with scissor switches between each pair of tracks the way it was done at Jay St. It would have eliminated the guessing game people had to play when alternate express and local F trains ran.
[As for the section between 59 and 125, keep in mind that the A doesn't do any better there. The A flies from 59 coming downhill into 42 street. And it's also fast
through Brooklyn and into the Rockaways.
But it's just about as slow as the D between 59 and 125.]
What are you talking about. I rode the A and D plenty of times from 59th Street to 125th Street, visa versa. Clearly, the A is a much faster choice.
One time I was traveling on the A to 168th Street from 42nd Street. It took me approximately 10 minutes.
Another time, I was riding the D from 59th Street to 125th Street. It took a mere 20 minutes. And that wasn't the only incident.
There's differently a difference. Believe me, there is.
168 to 42 on the A in ten minutes? I don't think so travel time from 168 to 145 is approx. 3 minutes 145 to 125 thru GT haven another 3-4 minutes 125 to 59 st 7-8 minutes 59-42 2 minutes.
14-16 minutes seems more of a realistic travel time.
What time of day were you riding? when A and D service are back to back 59 street s/b and 125 n/b are bottlenecks for both trains. travel time according to what i remember from schedules on A/D trains from 125-59 street was 8 minutes with some t/o's doing it in 7 minutes. Depending on traffic ahead the D train can be fast also and the A train as slow as molasses in winter.
Running n/b between 86/96th street and 116th street on 4 track that train can pick up some great speed but alas grade times from north of 103rd st . Hell I shut off the controller entering 96th street and coast with the train doing around 38/40 mph and ride the GT all the way to 116 before taking a brake into the curve and more GT into 125.
Northbound A and D's travel much faster than southbound ones. Usually those trains maintain a solid speed all the way to 103d st, where things slow a bit until 110 st, then pick up again. Going downtown, the A and D are equally slow. Anything under 7 minutes from 125 to 59 going downtown doesn't seem realistic to me.
20 minutes?!? There must have been a delay at 125th St. Did you happen to see any A or D trains passing your train on the local track?
I think Mickey needs a tune-up!
Actually, the running time from 59th Streeet to 125th Street on the express track is a shade over 7 minutes. Of that 7 minutes 4-5 minutes are spent in coast. This should indicate that while you are going uptown, you are actually going down-hill.
No R68 is capable of the speed you describe. See Steve's earlier post for optimum running times. The actual running time is closer to 8 or 9 minutes.
Wayne
Give me a jumper lead with alagator clips at each end and about 2 1/2 minutes and I'll make an R-68 hit 60+ MPH.
[ Give me a jumper lead with alagator clips at each end and about 2 1/2
minutes and I'll make an R-68 hit 60+ MPH. ]
Aww, you could do better than that. How about disabling all the trip cocks and sending it down a steep grade -- like a river tunnel..
You'd still need the alligator clips for the uphill run; otherwise, those cars wouldn't beat a train of Q cars. It's like trying to climb a hill in fifth gear.
You don't suppose they snuck a train of R-10s out of hiding, do you? Now, THEY could make that run in 3 minutes!
Nope - 60+ on level tangent tracks.
Give me a screwdriver, and 8 R-44's. 55, easy. Kinda makes working the A fun again.
Is this fact or perception or something else? Why would the R-68 run more slowly?
I think the Power:Weight ratio of the R-68 is about the worst you'll find on any transit car built since the 1920's when you examine its specifications.
Uh, no 68 is capable of that? I knew a motorman on the D that could coast over the Manhattan Bridge and pull into Grand Street doing 55. 68s are very capable, it's just rare.
How? The GT signals wouldn't allow that!
--Mark
[ How? The GT signals wouldn't allow that! ]
That's why I suggested disabling those pesky tripcocks. Then the GT's can complain all they want, but the train can ignore them.
At one time, the motorman could do just that. The 'D' types have a lever that disabled the tripcocks. This was designed for running in the snow. Now we use snow blocks......
[ At one time, the motorman could do just that. The 'D' types have a
lever that disabled the tripcocks. This was designed for running in
the snow. Now we use snow blocks...... ]
Well, motormen used to also be trusted to key by automatics. But those days are gone.
What is a snow block?
Isn't there also a cut-out cock on the truck or the piping going to the tripcock under the car?
A snow block is a piese of oak or ash taped tot he trip cock to make it more rigid and less likely to trip on debris.
There are no cut out cocks for tripcocks on revenue equipment
Speaking of speed, today I was on an R-46 on the R train that sped through the 60th Street Tunnel so damn fast that I felt the pressure in my ears, I haven't felt that since I was on the Red Line in D.C. How fast can an R-46 go? How fast could that R have been going?
After that fast run through the tunnel, it was off to Jamaica where I finished riding every subway line in current service and the Franklin Avenue Shuttle (not in one day, of course!).
Usually an R46 train can run as high as 45 mph.
However, in DC's metrorail, a train can travel as high as 55 mph with automatic train control, as high as 75 mph with manual control.
My experience of riding with Red line is that when the fastest ride is between Medical Center and Grosvenor stations.
Chaohwa
Yes! Over hill over dale, over the Beltway we go! I've been on that bridge aboard a 3000-series Breda Car that did 71. Quite a thrill. Highest speed I ever saw was 79MPH. Rohr 1027 did this in the tunnel approaching Benning Road station on the Blue Line. Also noteworthy:
Breda 3277 shot through the tunnel east of Fort Totten (after the switch) at 74MPH and took the curve into East Hyattsville at 45MPH. Another good stretch run is between Nat'l Airport and Braddock Road.
Can't wait for September - then I get to see the Bredas eat up the rails between Georgia Avenue and Fort Totten.
Wayne
[Yes! Over hill over dale, over the Beltway we go! I've been on that bridge aboard a 3000-series Breda Car that did 71. Quite a thrill. Highest speed I ever saw was
79MPH. Rohr 1027 did this in the tunnel approaching Benning Road station on the Blue Line. Also noteworthy:
Breda 3277 shot through the tunnel east of Fort Totten (after the switch) at 74MPH and took the curve into East Hyattsville at 45MPH. Another good stretch run is
between Nat'l Airport and Braddock Road.]
Your kidding? Why can't speed like that be accomplished on NYC subways?
[ Your kidding? Why can't speed like that be accomplished on NYC
subways? ]
It could, if the signal systems were upgraded, and we had faster cars.
What was balancing speed on ther R44/46 supposed to be, as designed? Were they supposed to balance at 75 or so?
The new signaling project with the R143's on the canarsie line is a step in the right direction, at least, as opposed to the neutering thatg happened after the Willie B accident.
You'd have to have track which is rated for high speed operation as well.
BTW, I've been on BART trains which reached 72 mph in the Transbay tube and 85 in Oakland. This may be an unfair comparison, as BART uses 5' 6" gauge track.
[ You'd have to have track which is rated for high speed operation as
well.
BTW, I've been on BART trains which reached 72 mph in the Transbay
tube and 85 in Oakland. This may be an unfair comparison, as BART uses
5' 6" gauge track. ]
We are being totally theoretical here, though. You could always do it once, and see how fast you go until you fall off the track.
On a more serious note, you don't need wide gauge track for high speeds. The NE Corridor is rated for 125 (IIRC, maybe only 110) in places now, with standard gauge track, and ACELA will be 150. I don't know what the gauge is for the higher speed stuff in Europe and Japan. I suppose the wider gauge might be beneficial for stability reasons.
I'd imagine that the engineering that goes into calculating a speed rating for a section of track is quite involved, but it would certainly require properly banked, gentle radius curves, a smooth profile, stable ballasting, etc. movable frog switchwork (where there is no gap in the rail) is also probably helpful. Maybe someone else can elaborate?
High speed rail in Europe is the same 4' 8 1/2" we have here. I don't know about Japan.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Japan's high speed rail (shinkansen) also uses standard gauge. (4' 8 1/2" = 1.435 m)
Chaohwa
As is mentioned further down the thread, WMATA (DC Metro) is rated for higher-speed operation than NYCT. The stations are farther apart. The tracks are banked properly on curves. Even the curves themselves (with about five notable exceptions) aren't particularly severe. Plus there is ATO (Automatic Train Operation). I believe in recent years they have applied a 75MPH maximum speed on any given stretch of track.
Still, 75MPH is very fast for a rapid-transit train.
Wayne
I don't know how fast the subways are in Philly, but 75 MPH is faster, I think, than any of the regional rail in Philadelphia aside from the trains on the Northeast Corridor (Trenton and Wilmington lines). It is possible that the express Main line trains to Downingtown hit 79 mph in spots - anyone know?
Really, in many ways, the DC metro is more comparable to commuter rail than a subway system like New York's.
I once clocked a Broad Street Express train at 53 mph past Wyoming a few years ago after the new cars went into service. I don't know what they do know.
There were places on the North Line in Atlanta where the trains run over 60 mph on the way to Dunwoody.
They've got a grade helping them out in there - most rolling stock can hit 50 or 55 MPH in that tunnel if the T/O plays the signals and timers correctly. "N"s slow noticeably emerging from the tunnel, where there is a steep up grade. "R"s have that jughandle to negotiate.
Wayne
Of the 75-foot cars, the R-46s are the best and the swiftest. Not by a whole lot, but swifter just the same.
Did you every ride the slanted 40 through that tunnel Jack Arthur?
I have many times and it is the best experience I ever had.
N Broadway Local
Only the R-46 and R-32.
On the A train, I have gotten from 42nd Street to Jay Street in 10 minutes. That's not bad at all!
That's impossible. When the r110b was in service on the A, we were booking from Columbus Circle to 125th. But it took more than 3 minutes. It probably takes about 3-4 minutes just to get from Bowling Green to Boro Hall on the #4.
That is a very fast ride under the Joralemon tubes...........
It sure is. The R-62s regularly hit 50 going through that tunnel.
I always wonder how graffiti artists manage to get into the subway tunnels. I notice a lot of graffiti in the tunnels between stations, some of it brand new. It is evident, especially in Harlem and the Bronx, as well as Brooklyn. It is hard to see, and it is very dangerous to enter those tunnels. Does the transit authority have programs that stop this vandalism?
Access is simple: you don't have to be rocket scientist to jump off a platform when no one is looking. For after-hours access, consider the emergency exits.
I suspect that most graffiti 'artists' aren't familier enough with subways to realize how dangerous is is to walk through the tunnels. Either that or they, like most punks, don't care.
CH.
What after hours? When the subway closes forever?
I won't give you any ideas about how graffiti vandals get into the system however, I will pas on a humorous story, too silly not to be true.
Recently, several 'R' trains were savagely attacked and painted while layed up in Brooklyn. they were brought to Jamaica Yd. for cleaning. Before cleaning the graffiti 'HIT' is documented in photos and on forms. The colors and tags are logged for the vandal squad. One of the 'Tags' was 4' X 40' and was a first and last name. I couldn't help to think how stupid the vandal was to put his own name on the side of a train.
On the second train - we found the same name - same size & color. Following the name was a two word message "F%&K YOU"! A rival of the original artist? Not really. It seems that the name so boldly painted on the side of 2 cars was the name of the detective on the vandal squad. Apparently, he had contact with these miscreants in the past. Still not too smart to pull the lion's tail.
Some of the worst graffiti I've seen is on the Archer Avenue Line. The entranceway and first few hundred yards of the J and Z lines is horrible. It is also bad on the E between Briarwood Wan Wyck and Jamaica Van Wyck. The newer walls seem to be better surfaces for the graffiti artists to paint.
i've notice some graffiti along the green line including a nice one right at the very very very end of the copley platform. i also noticed some new graffiti between park street, government center and hay market. i guess they target the green line because of the lack of a third rail and ease of getting on the track. doesn't make it any less dangerous though. but it's in the tunnel and i guess it's not hurting anyone. but it's not the punks' subway tunnel.
Thanx,
Matt
Does anybody have a NYC Subway Map from 1979? Please post on SubTalk
I do, but I don't have a scanner and nobody I know has a scanner that can read such a large page. Although you may be able to do it bit by bit and combine it if you have a flatbed unit. But, if you would like, I'll post the service table on my website!
I have several. Include the request with your E-mail on the 1987 Map.
Note: Unlike the 1987 I have have one printing on this one.
Allan
irt1904@aol.com
Here is some good news for Redbird fans. The R-142s are late. The earliest the first unit is expected is some time in October. So if you plan to ring in the new century in Times Square, chances are excellent that you'll get their on a redbird....
Hey, that's great! Break out the Bondo! Fabricate some body panels! Keep those Redbirds flying!!
P. S. Did they ever consider using Rustoleum as a primer during GOH?
Good! More work for the Body Doctors. The first ones to line up at the Bondo Clinic should be #7884 and his wife, the former suffering from advanced ferrule scleraderma of the No.1 end. He's got it baaaaaad and that ain't good! :o)
Wayne
Good news for Redbird fans yes....but not new news.....check the FAQ -Nick
I'm still hoping they make it to the 100th anniversary and regular service trains, as opposed to rush hour specials, though I don't think even Bombardier can screw up the R-142 order that much.
Steve, you know the 142's are so bad, we might not even get a set this year. When are they going to open E180th???
What the hell happened at Chambers st. during the evening rush last night (Mon.)? I was working on the 1800 deuce out of Flat, My leader got turned at Atlantic and I proceeded on the regular route when I got to Wall passengers on the platform were asking me "Where are the Brooklyn bound trains". Nothing came over the radio and when I got to Chambers there was a deuce on tracks 2,3,& 4. After I got uptown and asked WHERE DID YOU LOSE YOUR TIME? I noticed half the crews were not coming in and I had to jump ahead. When I asked what happened I basicaly gotno response.
Allegedly a train with smoke issuing at Chambers Street. Some deuces were sent down the east side, some were turned back north at 14th St. (I'm so glad I don't work the PMs)
Apparently it wasn't a very good night to try to get to Chambers Street.
At about the same time as the problems on the IRT, there was a sick passenger at Chambers Street on the A/C. At least one C train was rerouted onto the F at West 4th and one A terminated at the E platform in WTC.
While waiting for the mess to clear at West 4th, I considered hiking over to Christopher Street and taking the 1 downtown. Glad I didn't.
I don't know about the rest of you guys and the experiences you've had this summer as far as the LIRR is concerned, but I don't ever remember another year where the cars seemed so humid or smelt so bad. It reminds me of the inside of the boys' locker room back in high school except so far I haven't seen any jock straps scattered all over the floor. I shudder to think what might be lurking under those seats. Haven't been on the subway in over three months but I'm willing to bet that in general the cars are a lot cleaner. Just my two cents on this subject. Salvatore.
There was a letter to the editor in today's Daily News in reference to this, although the rider there was lamenting MNCR, not the LIRR.
-Hank
I never sent this letter, though I should have:
New York City Transit
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
Dear Customer Care Representative,
Thank you so much for installing those 34 beautiful new flourescent lighting fixtures several months ago, on the center express platform of the 34th Street Station on the Eighth Avenue Line.
I was wondering if NYCT planned to allocate funds from its multi-million dollar surplus to additionally purchase light bulbs and apply electricity to said fixtures.
Better lighting over the superheated, dismal platform would make the long waits for the filled-to-capacity uptown A trains much more pleasant during the afternoon rush hour.
Sincerely yours,
Which line have the most amount of cars in it fleet? I figure the #4 which have about 300 R62's..... Anybody beg to differ?
Jamica yard's got ALL 752 R-46's. True they're split four ways. But then again Steve's fleet is bigger than some Transit systems.
In October, when the Williamsburg bridge re-opens the F will go back to 50 trains from the current 46. At that point it'll use 400 R-46s. I think that's got the rest beat.
Do any F trains lay up at Coney Island? Also what is the maximum cycle time for trains on the F (ie: can a train be on the road for days on end, or is the schedule set up to cycle every train into the yard after a certain number of hours)?
Every day 15 F trains lay up in City Yard (part of the Coney island Complex). Depending on the railroad, cars can run for days on end.
This morning on News88, a short story was on the air about cracks in about 100 cars (New York Subway cars) resulting in them being pulled from service.
Does anyone know what R series was involved and which lines will be effected?
The story was brief and very unclear so I am curious as to what part of the car infrastructure was cracked - i.e. trucks? frames?
Here is the full text of the story that ran on WCBS this morning (by the way, it's NewsRadio 88! Management changed our on-air "handle" back to NewsRadio 88 about 10 years ago, after a short stint as News 88). For more details, I'd suggest finding the Post story.
THERE ARE 90 FEWER SUBWAY CARS ON THE TRACKS THIS MORNING. THE POST SAYS THEY'VE BEEN PULLED OUT OF SERVICE BECAUSE OF DANGEROUS CRACKS IN THE UNDERCARRIAGES.
THE M-T-A WILL COME UP WITH THE CASH TO FIX THE CARS OVER THE NEXT FEW WEEKS. A HIGH-TECH 100-THOUSAND DOLLAR INSPECTION DEVICE IS BEING CREDITED WITH FINDING THE CRACKS...WHICH COULD LEAD TO BREAKDOWNS AND DERAILMENTS.
(by the way, it's NewsRadio 88!
Or is it becoming WCBS NEWS? Most of the on-air reporters are saying their names followed by WCBS NEWS at the close of their stories, not their names and NewsRadio 88 .... Having listened to the station for more than 20 years now, you pick up on these things :)
--Mark
Id bet good money that it is the R-44-46 cars again. They had cracks in the last few months in their equalizers and transoms, did they not?
Transoms yes, equalizers no - at least not on the R-46s. The only equalizer to crack (that I know about) was on an R-32 and it was quite a sight.
You're absolutely correct, Mark. The reporters have been asked by management to sign-off "WCBS News" (by the way, in radio lingo, that's called a 'lockout.') There's one exception -- the business reporters are supposed to still use "NewsRadio-88." And we can use "NewsRadio-88" within the body of a report, such as:
The Manhattan Bridge has been reopened to subway traffic on both sides for the first time in years. Details on which lines go where coming up soon here on NewsRadio-88. I'm Todd Glickman, WCBS News.
wishful thinking... and back on topic!
Dreaming of giving up the weather? Secretly wish for an anchor's slot huh? I should have known. You weather men, all so wacky!
Erik, I've reported on weather... AND TRANSIT too. Here are two of my transit-related reports (note - they're large .wav files):
100th anniversary of Boston's subway system
90th anniversary of NYC's subway system
And I even had to anchor the news for about 10 minutes when the news anchor, sitting next to me, had to, uh, excuse himself. It's a good thing I knew how to run the board! I got in all the commercials :-)
"...ya dont need a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows..."
couldn't resist
I guess I'm a long time listener to NewsRadio 88 as I habitually refer to it as News 88. I must have picked that up from a decade ago.
As for the cracks in the cars - seems like the information is still lacking specifics. With the entire fleet subject to this problem,
it's nice to know that we're not dealing with one manufacturer or rebuilder alone cutting corners.
I remember the chaos underway when the R46s started failing due to cracks in their trucks. And was it the R42s with brake
problems? Either way, it quickly became a nightmare problem with all kinds of equipment being pulled from scrap lines to fix
the situation.
I distinctly remember some hastilly painted R10s (white with brown or tan interior) filling in on the E and F for some sidelined
R46s that were greeted with extreme hostility.
As many have pointed out - pulling the R30s before their time was a very stupid mistake. This is a perfect example of how they
could have been deployed to our advantage.
There is some more info on the cracked subway cars at the following URL
It can be found on the NY Post website
http://nypost.com/news/11573.htm
Well that sure narrows it down, eh?
"The crack-plagued cars run on the A, B, D, F, G, J, L, M, N, Q, R and 3, 5 and 6 lines."
So let's see, they could be R44s, R32s, R38s, R68s, R46s, R40s, R42s, R62s, R26-36s,...
Deja vu all over again....
You perhaps expected Precision from The Post?
According to the New York Post,
"The cracks were discovered in recent months in undercarriages on six models of cars."
"Some of the cars are 25 years old."
"The crack-plagued cars run on the A, B, D, F, G, J, L, M, N, Q, R and 3, 5 and 6 lines."
R46s must be one of the models. Deja vu all over again! :-p
The rest of the models are potentially R44, R40, R42, R68, and R62A.
Just my speculation.
Chaohwa
No recent cracks have been found in any R-46s. At the present time 748 cars are in service or out for minor repairs. 4 are out of service for rebuilding.
Is that the #5554-5555-5557-5556 bunch which is still out of revenue service? Another bunch I've never seen is #5486-5487-5489-5488.
Wayne
BUZZZZZZZZ - 5554 and company have been back in service for over a month.
Thank you, Steve. And I have my answer re. 5486-7-9-8: they are Parts Cars, picked clean, sitting in CI Yard - info found in "Retired R46" post. Makes no sense at all, given the B Div. shortage.
Wayne
Perhaps you expected a truthful and accurate story from a FOX-owned media outlet? Anyone see the August Car and Driver? Wonderful little story on the Robbie Knivel con-job.
-Hank
Does anybody have a NYC Subway Map from May 24, 1987? The "Brown Diamond R" was there.
Send me your snail mail address.
By the way, which printing would you like?
I have the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th (2 slightly different in the 4th printing), 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th (the 5th thru 8th were issued in early 1989.
Each one has a printing code (i.e. 12345678, 2345678, 345678 etc) The 2nd one of the 4th issue also has a commodity (product code) 22-30-7065.
Allan (irt1904@aol.com)
I've been hearing a awful lot lately about how bad this line or that line is, but what I'd like to hear is this: Is there a particular line that is worth riding? The Sea Beach Man is arriving in New York on August 6th and plans to ride more than just the Sea Beach. Some of you whizzes out there must have a suggestion or two. I've never taken the line that crosses the Williamsburg Bridge, or some of the Bronx IRT Lines. I'd appreciate any suggestions that come across. How many of the old 32's and 40's are still in operation? Some of the newer models don't sound too exciting to me. Chao
Well, don't bother planning on riding across the Williamsburgh Bridge because you can't - no service over the bridge until Sept 12th or thereabouts.
Suggestions, in no particular order:
- IRT 2 (White Plains Road Line) from 241st St to Chambers St. The run under Broadway and 7th Ave is a thrill. The outdoor elevated run is great, too.
- IRT 7 (Flushing Line) from end to end. Make SURE to grab an express (to Manhattan until NOON, from Manhattan until 9pm or so).
- IRT 6 (Pelham Line)from 125th St to Pelham Bay Park (or vice versa), again, depending on time of travel, grab a Pelham Express.
- BMT Q from Brighton Beach to 21st - Queensbridge. The Q has slant 40s (and some R-42s I hear).
- IND A train, if you can stand it (no pun intended) from 207th St to Far Rockaway, but make sure to grab the R-32 (or R-38).
- IND E train, from, say, 53rd St / 7th Ave to Jamaica Center. Grab a R-42 J train back to Eastern Pkwy / Broadway Junction, then wrap it up with a ride on the R-42 L train back to Manhattan (or take it out to Rockaway Parkway first, and see some of the stations that still look like you're in the 1920s).
That oughtta take up a few hours :)
--Mark
Try taking the Brighton Line (D train). That is one of the most scenic of all the Brooklyn rapid transit lines.
I highly recommend the A line (complete run from Far Rockaway to 207th St.)
The Canarsie/14th Street "L" is also an interesting line particularly once it gets to Brooklyn and runs over the Broadway-East New York El structure, parelleling the LIRR Bay Ridge Freight division.
Have FUN!
Doug aka BMTman
Mark: Thanks. It will take up one of my days. Good show.
Well, there are 590 R-32s still rolling along out of the original 600. At 35 years of age for the oldest ones, well, it depends on how you look at it from an age standpoint.
I may be mistaken, but all of the slant R-40s and R-40Ms are still around. A few have been sidelined for collision repairs. Mr. Slant R-40 himself (Wayne) keeps track of such matters.
Make sure you get an N of one of the above two car classes.
You can look at two ways to decide whether a subway line is exciting.
(1) From the riding standpoint
(2) From the photography standpoint.
From the riding standpoint, I like a subway line with half-width-cab subway cars because I can stand in front of the train to watch the signals, tracks, and elevated scenery, or feel the excitement of boarding an express train.
Redbirds, R32s, R40s, R40Ms, R42s, and some of R62A have half-width cabs.
Here are my recommendations.
(1) Q train:
They have R40s, R40Ms, R42s, and sometimes R32s. Because Q line is Brighton Line Express, the scenes are beautiful and you can ride nonstop and watch your train catching D trains.
(2) All the lines involving Redbirds (2,4,5,6,7):
I love Redbirds very much because I grew up in the Bronx. Riding Redbirds makes me think of my childhood days in the 70s.
(3) A train to Far Rockaway:
A trains have R32s and R38s. Riding across Jamaica Bay in the summer is a cool thing!
(4) E train in Queens:
E trains have R32s. Because E line is Queens Express, it is enjoying to ride beneath Queens and Northern Boulevards.
From the photography standpoint, it is exciting to have a subway line with elevated sturctures. Therefore, all of the above except (4) are very good. I will recommend two more.
(5) F line in Brooklyn:
On Smith-9th Streets station, you can take a picture with lower Manhattan skylines on the background. The scenes along the Culver line are very beautiful. The only drawback is F trains are R46s, which have full-width cabs.
(6) East New York Complex.
It is exciting to see several elevated lines (Broadway, Jamaica, and Canarsie lines) converge to a single place. The sturctures are so magnificant that I can't believe it was done near 100 years ago!
These are my recommendations. Enjoy your trip to NYC!
Chaohwa
Well here are some tips for the IRT.
The ride between 137 and 242 on the No.1/9 is a good ride with the Highlight between 157 Street and Dyckman Street. Those R62A's do good speed in that area. Also you are on one of the Lowest points in the Subway Systerm at 168,181 Streets and don't forget 191 Street. Between 168 and 191 Street there a good view at the oposite train passing bye because there are No Colms in the middle. Also if you want to do this don't wait to long the railfan windows will be no more in less then a year from now on the No.1 Line.
The No.6 Pelham Line is also a good line. You never know what type of train you'll get. The No.7 Line is a good Elevated line and the Express is one on the Best ride you could have.
The j when it reopens is a greayt choice because right befoe the bridge is a fabulous view of manhattan
Anyone get bright ideas on taking pictures in poor light conditions without using flash i.e. at dim stations?
Simon
Swindon UK
I've used 1600 speed film ... that seems to help to some extent.
--Mark
1- Fast film (800 or better). After 1000 it gets sort of grainy. I'd stick with Kodak Royal Gold 800.
2- Camera with manual aperture setting or aperture priority, set to the largest aperture the lens can handle. This so the shutter does not need to be open as long to capture the light.
3- If you have a zoom lens, DON'T ZOOM OUT. Most lenses have decreased maximum aperture at longer focal lengths. A lens that is f3.5 at 28 mm might be f5.6 or worse at 100 mm.
4- Brace yourself and the camera against a pole or a wall.
If you're lucky you might get something like this:
-Dave
Slightly off topic, but how do you add the captions?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just about any graphics package allows you to add random text to an image. I use a package called Imagemagick for Unix but you could just as easily use Photoshop, etc.
rest the camera on a solid object when using longer exposeures
The Covent Garden picture is superb. Was it a telephone or a chocolate machine you were resting against.Word of warning to anyone coming to London, the chocolate machines always win. The reason I asked for help is that on September 11th I am going to Glasgow for the day and thought I may get some shots of their Underground for the site. It is like no other and the pictures may well be of interest.
Thanks for your help
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon,
I think that most of the stations have island platforms without very much on them (I can check my book "Circles under the Clyde" and report back) and so you may need a tripod. I presume that you will be visiting the excellent museum of transport. If so, save some film for subway exhibit there, as this is very well done indeed. Glasgow's other underground line (the Argyle line) is also interesting, but probably less photogenic. Unfortunately, I think that all the Routemaster buses are long gone.
Max
Max, thanks for the info. My plans include a visit to the museum. But as it is only a flying visit (Easyjet from Luton) my time is limited. I will try and get as many pictures as possible though.
Simon
Swindon UK
What is a good slide film for shooting underground?
When I was on my NYC railfan trip in May, I used Kodak Max
400 in my Nikon Nice Touch 2(it's six years old, I got it
after my 5th grade graduation).
Some of the underground pictures came out(DeKalb, Chambers Street-IRT and 63rd/ Lexington) and others(South Ferry,
42nd/6th and again Chambers St) did not.
I'm pretty sure my flash wasn't bright enough, but
whenever I take underground shots, less than half come out legible enough to tell what it is.
Does the type of camera really matter or is it film?
(I'm dreading the picture I took in the mezzanine of
Myrtle Avenue on the L. It was just about the darkest
place I'd ever been in).
I'll post a simple answer here and email you a more detailed one. Simply put, film will be your most important consideration in large low-light areas. The faster the film speed the more light it can absorb in a given amount of time, hence improving your pictures. Probably the best compromise for print film is Kodak Max 800. I prefer slides, but I haven't found a good one yet for low-light shooting with action (people, trains, etc.).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Harry and I will be there around Noon.
Which Location?
The A train crapped out this morning, so I took the F on to Delancy expecting to change for the Downtown J/M/Z, forgetting about the Willie B shutdown. While waiting on the platform, I had a thought.
The TA just might decide to run the J/Z up 6th Avenue and then through the 63rd St tunnel as the second Queens Line local to Manhattan. Running the Q would require a switch between the express and local tracks somewhere north of Broadway Lafayette. Besides, the Q may not be on the 6th Avenue line, depending on the Manhattan Bridge situation.
Having the J/Z go on to Continental would cut down on switching. It merges into the local tracks, and both the J/Z and F could use 63rd St. The M would serve Downtown.
That kind of goes back to Todd Glickman's posting on this subject many months ago ...
This is a J train running from Parsons-Archer to Parsons-Archer via Bridge and Tunnel .....
--Mark
Ahh, so then you could get a J/Z from Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center, eh?
That would be confusing :)
Wasn't there also a "K" that ran along broadway (brooklyn) and then went to Canarsie via Broadway Junction?
IIRC there was also a K service that ran somewhere along the current A route.
I could be wrong about either of those. I'm sure someone will point it out, though :)
Yes, K(K) was originally the old Broadway Short Line, the original service to Canarsie from Canal Street/Centre Street via Broadway Brooklyn to one of several eastern destinations, Canarsie, Atlantic Ave., Eastern Pkwy or Crescent St.
Then it was still the Broadway Brooklyn Local but up 6th Avenue.
Finally it was the replacement letter for the AA when the TA went all single letter--running non-rush hours from 168th via 8th Ave to Hudson Terminal.
The 6th Ave. incarnation of the KK was one of a number of attempts by the TA to convince riders to take the BMT Jamaica Line to relieve crowding on the IND one. I'm not sure they have a prayer unless they rebuild the section between Broadway Junction and Cypress Hills and third track to 111th Street.
They already HAVE partially rebuilt the Fulton Street part of the "J" line. AL Ave. and Van Siclen are complete rebuilds. Cleveland, Norwood and Crescent all got new platforms AND new roofs on the sheds (they left the 1885 ironwork - Good) I do believe they did some shoring-up of the girders and trusses beneath the tracks as well. This dates back to the early-to-mid 1980s.
Wayne
Even though they're original and picturesque, they've got to do something about the curves on Crescent Street.
The easiest way to get rid of those curves is to abandon them...
Then the J becomes a shuttle from Jamaica Center to Cypress Hills
Now we see declining ridership on the shuttle so we abandon that section and rid Jamaica Av. of its unsightly el structure.
Then all the businesses supported by the el close.
Property values in the area drop.
And its a long bus ride to East New York...
If this sounds familiar, it should - its happened before - many times.
Yikes. What a nightmare. I'm officially declaring the era from 1969 to 1982 as the "Dark Ages" of the NYC subway system.
That's an appropriate title for that period. Graffiti, deferred maintenance, and a fiscal crisis nearly flushed that system down the toilet.
Back to topic, I doubt if they will ever dismantle the rest of the Jamaica line, not after building the Archer Ave. line. If they wanted to do away with those two nasty curves, they could run a segment all the way down Jamaica Ave. from Cypress Hills to Broadway Junction.
Sounds logical. A cemetary and several industrial type stores dominate jamaica Ave. at this point, making community opposition nearly non-existant. However, I can imagine busineses along Fulton St. would complain about having their mealticket moved north to Jamaica Ave.
Hey Chris,
The real dark ages for the NYC transit system began IMHO in 1960: the year that they began to scrap the BMT ABs, really accelerated in 1965 when the D-types met their demise, and hit its peak in 1969 when the ABs and Q-types ran their last. (although some will argue that the peak was in 1977 when the R/9s ran their last!)
Sorry about leaving out you IRT fans with your Lo-Vs etc, but from where I stood on Bay Parkway and 86 st. and at Brighton Beach, all I ever saw was BMT with the ocassional R/9.
Mike H
I don't think that it's fair to classify the subway dark age based on when your favorite equipment was pulled from service. In fact, if new equipment was being purchased to replace the old, that actually means that the subway was THRIVING because there was new equipment around.
I referred the age from 1969-82 as the "dark ages" because of the orgy of demolition the city went on and the emergence of the graffitti problem.
Plus the decision to practice deferred maintenance, which led to more breakdowns, and the problems in the 70s with the R-44s and the R-46s.
The subway system is so much better now in terms of upkeep and reliability than 20 years ago it isn't funny. Hopefully the R-142s won't break that streak when they start replacing the Redbirds.
Jack,
Sorry, it wasn't meant to pertain to the system, just my tongue-in-cheek heartbreak at the demise of such great equipment. For many of us who remember those wonderful sounds of the gears and brakes a little something has been missing since then.
(by the I am a fan of the original looks of the R32 and the Modified R40, so don't think I'm trapped in a time warp!)
GIMME DEM OLD TIME SUBWAY CARS, THEY'RE GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME! Mike H
They (MTA) needs to demolish that whole entire elevated system. And in it's place, high tech 21st Century structure capable of producing speeds compatible to the subway. It is a crying shame they haven't done it already. J M Z Broadway/Jamaica Lines.
N Broadway Local
It would be great if they could stick the Eastern Division underground, with a four track express between Marcy Ave. and Broadway Junction, and a connection there to the A/C line. Then you could run a K train as a Brooklyn express from the Rockaways that would bypass Brooklyn and knock about four or five stops off the current trip to Manhattan, and run either the J or Z express between Broadway Junction and Marcy during rush hours.
The bottleneck would be the merge for the locals and expresses at the Willie B, but the A and C are merging right now between Canal and Hoyt-Schermerhorn and the D and Q and B and M also share trackage, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.
My suggestion, as part of the freedom from the bridges plan, would be to abandon the Fulton St portion and just extend the El down Jamaica Ave. As part of the project, the Jamaica line could be tied in to the 14th St Eastern Line to provide an alternative to the Willie B.
Going straight down Jamaica Ave. does sem to make the most sense. Oddly, I've never seen a serious proposal for this. The most recent replacement idea would have sliced through a line on diagonal from Fulton Street to Jamaica Avenue, taking many homes.
An underground line using the same route could smooth out the curves a lot at Crecent Street, if the city gets an easement under the corner buildings.
In Washington, the Red line has a similar S-type curve to go under Van Ness Street from Connecticut Ave. to Wisconsin Ave., but it's nowhere near as sharp (and it can handle 75-foot cars).
Of course, an underground line for the J/Z is probably next-after-last on the MTA's priority list.
The curve coming into Tenleytown-AU is more abrupt than the one leaving Van Ness. The Bredas are so slick you don't even know you're turning. Sharpest curve in DC? Hmmm...north of Metro Center (Blue/Orange), maybe between Farragut West and Foggy Bottom (THERE's an "S" curve!), maybe just west of Potomac Avenue (same line). Some curves up on the upper Green Line are pretty sharp too. All in all, Metro is pretty well laid out and curves are barely noticeable. (Rohr 1237 DID make some pretty gruesome music n.of Metro Center one time- her wheels probably weren't ground right).
Wayne
The bottleneck isn't only between Crescent and Cypress Hills, but throughout the entire line. Just ride it, you will see.
JMZ should be demolished and rebuilt using the lastest construction techniques.
N Broadway Local
the BRT made a huge mistake when it decided to rebuild the portion past Van Siclen Ave to Crescent St c. 1910 so it could use heavier subway cars. A much better plan would have been to move the entire line from Eastern Pkw. to 168th St along Jamaica Ave. An express track could have been included and that line could be much more useful than it presently is today. That S-curve from Crescent to Cypress Hills absolutley kills the entire line.
You're absolutely right. Had the line been rebuilt as a straight shot along Jamaica Ave. all the way to 168th St., the Triplexes could have been used there. The portion along Fulton St. could not support their weight. More specifically, it was the axle weight, rather than the gross weight. The axle weight of the Triplexes was much greater than that of the BMT standards. There is a table of axle weights in Subway Cars of the BMT.
[Running the Q would require a switch between the express and local tracks somewhere north of Broadway Lafayette.]
I don't think a switch is needed. I believe the connection to the 63rd Street tunnel north of 47-50th Street Station can be made from either the local or the express track. Doesn't the Q currently get there without switching?
True, the 63rd St tunnel tracks wye into both express and local on 6th Av. What I'd like to see at least, and what they should have done for this upcoming pick is have weekend service from 21st to Metropolitan. (Extend to 71st when connection opens) Why should Ridgewood be so isolated from the city on weekends. Weekdays, the 63rd St service will possibly go to Church Av, unless they are cheap and stick with 2nd Av. The eastern div. could use the weekday 6th Av. service, (and this was the original idea for the V service when "K" was moved to 8th Av.) but that's impractical in rush hours because of the shorter trains.
Yes, the Q remains on the express tracks and does not switch over before Rockefeller Center. It would have to do so only if it had to be rerouted via the 53rd St. tunnel. There are scissor switches north of W. 4th St. and north of 34th St., with an extra crossover switch from express to local just before 42nd St.
I thought we beat that discussion on Jamaica to Jamaica service to death earlier this year.
The primary obstacle is that the Jamaica Line can not support full 600-foot length trains and could be a liability on the very heavily travelled Queens Boulevard Line.
When was the K discontiued
The K ran from 1968-73....the KK ran from then to 1975. The difference was that the K ran to 168th St. via the J line and the later KK ran either to Eastern Pkwy. or Atlantic Ave. on the Canarsie line.
Actually, it was the other way around. The KK came first, then it became the K. The service pattern chronology is correct. It may have stuck around until 1976.
whoops, my bad.
If the MTA found severe problems in any on model of its cars, a problem so grave that the cars had to be yanked, where would the MTA get replacement cars? Are there any cars stored anywhere for revenue service? would they put some folding chairs in the r127s and use them for passenger service?
The above, promising "transportation from the past, present and future" will be held Sunday, September 19 at the Morristown Train Station from 11 to 4. Admission is free. You can "take a ride on a 1950's train. See antique cars and buses, and historic memorabilia; see tomorrow's cars: electric, hydrogen, methanol, solar." For info call 973-267-7600 or access www.MCRIDES.org.
I cannot believe that the #8 line was shut down in 1973. It would surely be an excursion to remember. They should rebuild it, so that this historical relic can be ridden once again. Why did they have to abandon it?
The people along 3rd Av, Webster Av and nearby streets were complaining about the noise. Also the structure would not have been able to handle equipment heavier than the R-12 cars. The cost to rebuild would have been prohibitive during that period of save $$$ at any cost.
Also ridership was not up to expectations.
There was talk at one time that it would be replaced by a subway. But again with budget problems that died quickly.
From a practical standpoint El's are not as efficient as subways.
They are exposed to the elements which would require more maintenance
than underground rails. The only reason that the few El sections still exist is because they could not be replaced by a subway (Cost considerations and other logistical problems). Any new construction
not associated with rebuilding (Willismburg Bridge etc) would be underground.
But as the TA has proven they can easily be replaced by a bus.
There was talk at one time that it would be replaced by a subway. But again with budget problems that died quickly.
This is true. In Phase II of the 1968 MTA "Plan for Action" was a proposal to replace the 3rd Ave El in the Bronx with a new subway line adjacent to the then-Penn Central right of way along Park Avenue.
--Mark
The 3rd Avenue Line was torn down during the height of the Second Avenue subway construction, for which based on the 1968 plan, the Bronx leg was planned to be parallel a few short blocks away. I remember that in the very early 70s there was optimism that the Second Avenue subway would be finished before 1977, but we all know the rest of the story.
P.S. I got to ride it three or four times in my exploration of the system. The Third Avneue EL, the Ditmas Shuttle, the Myrtle Avenue EL (west of Broadway Brooklyn), and the Jamaica El (east of 121th Street) before their demise were still neat experiences to the very end.
I just wish I could remember riding the last of Fulton Street EL, I was not quite three when it came to its end.
I just think the TA used any excuse they could not to spend money and the elimination of the Els were just there was of breaking with the past.
Actually the 1968 plan was not based on the Second Avenue subway, which was to run along the Northeast Corridor to Hunts Point Avenue and East 180th Street. There was a separate 3rd Avenue "replacement" service that was supposed to run along the Harlem Division (now Metro-North). How this was to be done was never specified. To widen the Harlem Division right-of-way would require the removal of the parallel roadways of Park Avenue that provide access to the buildings along the route. I suspect that some of the routes in Phase II were just thrown in for political reasons, and the MTA was never serious about building them.
Among other things, the el structure itself was crumbling. The R-12s had to be slowed down acceleration-wise to reduce stress and had to run in four-car trains instead of five. Even so, rivets were popping out.
BTW, this has been mentioned before, but the #8 marking was used only on maps - not equipment. The R-12s which ran there were marked "Shuttle".
If you want to get a feel for what an excursion was like (mostly
from the front window), just before the Bronx section was closed.
I have some pictures taken by my father in April 1973. You can
find them at http://www.palter.org/~subway/index.html
Bill
Bill,
I've only gotten a chance to look at the first page of images so far, but wow!
-Dave
To Bill Palter, great pictures that are taken in the Demolition of NYC Bronx Stations. In the pictures 12 through 15 of Demolition of NYC Bronx Stations are the Fordam Road 3rd Ave El station. That is also the Entrance to the Fordham Road Metro-North Harlem-New Haven line is case you need it. I get on that station to go to my dentist in Larchmont the New Haven line. Also i go there to go to my sister's and brother-in-law's house on the Harlem line.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
An absolute must see for all sub-fans. It should be added to the "links" page here at NYC Subway Resources.
Yes! Now the next question, Bill: for the benefit of those of us who can only identify about 30% of the photo locations, do you think you could add captions identifying where each picture was taken?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The only pictures I could definatley identify the location was the Gun Hill Rd station pics (the station still exists) and the 149/th St. 3rd. Ave. terminal, being a converted express stop with the extra-wide platform and filled in trackway. Still an incredible collecton of pics, especially to those of us who never got to ride or even see either the 3rd. Ave el or the Culver Shuttle. The pictures of the demolition brought back sad memories of watching them tear down the Jamaica Ave. el in the late 70's when i was a little kid.
I wish I could identify more of the locations, I was about 7 when
most of the pictures were taken, so my memories are not too clear.
I can make some educated guesses, based on the fact that they are
in the sequence they were taken in and it was a ride from Gun Hill Road to 149th street and back. The easiest ones to identify are
the terminals and Fordham Road (in one of the pictures you can see the steelwork for the old stub line to bronx park terminal).
If anyone can identify more of the locations, let me know what you
think they are, and I'll add captions.
Here's some caption info for Bill's great pictures (at http://www.palter.org/~subway in case you missed it)
page 1
1. gun hill road & hull ave looking east along g.h.r.
2. same as 1
3. same as 1
4. gun hill road lower level looking southwest
5. same as 4
6. just leaving g.h.r. southbound . station in distance is 210th st
7. 210th st. facing south
8. 204th st. facing south - center track ends just past here
9. probably bedford pk blvd
10. bet bedford park and fordham road
11. fordham road facing southbound
12. leaving fordham road
13. 183rd
14. 180th
15. leaving 180th heading towrd tremont
16. approaching tremont
17. leaving tremont, bridge over cross bronx expy
18. 174th st.
19. claremont
20. heading to 169th
21. 169th
22. leaving 169th...
23. 166th
24. 161st
25. leaving 161st.. street going straight probably st. anne's ave.
26. 156th
27. leaving 156th probably around 154-153
28. crossover prior to 149th
29. entering 149th
30. 149th terminal facing south from north end of plat
31. entering 161st
32. 166th northbound
33. 169th northbound
34. heading toward claremont northbound
35. 174 northbound
36. tremont- northbound
37. 180 northbound
38. 183rd. northbound
page 2
1 183rd facing north at north end of northbound plat
2 same as 1 but facing south from north end of northbound plat
3 same as 1 but facing south from north end of northbound plat
4 heading north, departing 183rd
5 heading north into fordham
6 fordham
7 departing fordham - bronx park terminal spur
8 200th
9 204th
10 leaving 204 - street on left might be parkside place
11 view east into the scraggly south end of bronx park, b.r. parkway
12. 210th st
13. eastward on gun hill road
14-30 views from gun hill road
31 - ?? i have no idea where this is. it's not near gun hill & white
plains rd. it's on ground level. maybe near e. 180th st. yard???
32-37 views from white plains road of gun hill rd. station
page 3
1-10 views from gun hill road. the consist of cars in these pictures is
today's museum train (5290-5292-5443-5483) and 4902 which is in the
transit museum
11-13 149th & Willis Ave.
14 148th facing north
15-18 back on 149th & Willis (IRT white plains rd line station in 16-18)
19-20 gun hill road - on white plains rd facing north
21-22 161st & St Annes Ave
page 4
29 el turning off gun hill to webster ave, facing 210th st south
30-31 maybe near 204th. that's probably bronx park in the background
32 gun hill road facing east, white plains rd. station in bg.
33 same as r12-3rd.jpg but don't know where it is
34
35
36 149th st station looking north
37-38 147th & 3rd ave. looking north
page 5 - demolition photos - not really sure on these.
Pictures 6 and 7 of Page 4 of 3rd Ave El October 1973, After Termation of Service. Photo 6 is the Bedford Park Blvd station 3rd Ave El Southbound Station. Picture 7 is Bedford Park Blvd Northbound Station. I remember the 3rd Ave El in the bronx very well. I used to travel the whole length in 1972 and 1973. I was in Rice High School at the time.
I am now 42 years old.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
To Dave Pirmann, you are correct on page 1 picture 9 is Bedford Park Blvd. I know the big building on the left. That big building on the left is the Botanical Garden station for the Metro-North Railroad.
I live about 7 blocks to the right of that building.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Hey Dave Pirmann, the pictures on r12-3rd.jpg background is Mosholu Pkway.
Peace Out
Meaney
I have added captions to most of the pictures at
Subway Pictures, and added a couple more demolition pictures.
Thanks to everyone who helped identify the locations,
especially David Pirmann.
Here some pictures that i know some places. f01/s17.jpg is Webster Ave near Mosholu Pkway looking south, f01/s16.jpg is Webster Ave near Mosholu Pkway looking north, f01/27 & 28.jpg is third ave & 161 st looking south, and f01/18.jpg is 170st & third ave on the right side is Gov. Morris Houses.
Peace Out
Meaney
I never had the chance to ride the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave EL. Now, thanks to these pictures, I feel like I almost have. Thanks for sharing them.
(And did you see the Culver Shuttle pix? That brought back memories!)
--Mark
Excellent shots. I will link to your page from my Third Ave El remnants page in
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thanks for the pix. 204th St was my station.
I knew every inch of that line. Even though, the locations are vague in the thumbnails, I know each loaction very well in the regular pix.
My wish list for (Bronx) historical pix of the 3rd Ave line includes the active Fordham/Bronx Park junction, Bronx Park Terminal, 177th St Yard & junction, the 149th St junction to the Westchester Ave structure, the Willis Ave structure and the junction at 143rd St, and the structure south of 143th St to the river.
The picture noted as
View of 204th Street Station from Gun Hill Road Station, lower level
should read
View of 3rd Ave El structure on Webster Ave below the elevation of 207th St & Parkside Place (from Gun Hill Road Station.)
Parkside place is the road that ramps up and down from 207th St.
We could stand at that location and look down at the structure & trains.
The 204th St station is further south and not visable in this view.
The southern end of Parkside Place shows up in the view of Bronx Park.
One of the other pictures shows 205th St dead-ending at Webster.
That location was the subject of the proposed extension of the Concourse Line to link-up with the Dyre Ave Line.
The IND Grand Concourse Line as most of you know extends a few blocks east of the present 205 St Station to Wesbster Av.These tracks are used only for turning of equiptment. It was planned in the 30's to extend the IND east to a possible link up with the Dyre Av Line. If this had been done the Concourse line would have emerged from the subway at 205 and Webster at a level that would have had to of crossed the 3 avenue El at or close to grade which would have meant closing or somehow modifying the el structure. Anyone have any thoughts why this connection was ever made.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Possibly, the el structure mighy have had to been raised in order for the subway tacks to clear the NYC Harlem Div tracks and leave enough room for the surface traffic, TARS and automobiles to pass under the el structure. The plan also showed a bridge or elevated structure all the way across Bronx Park to Burke Ave which was also at a higher elevation in relation to the Bronx river valley.
I would think that the D train would have pass under Webster Avenue in a tunnel, because there is no space on 205th Street for a ramp. It would probably have to pass under the Harlem Division too, because there wouldn't be enough room to make the change in grade. The portal could have been beyond that, because the Bronx River Parkway wasn't extended through the area until the 1950s.
There was a later plan (around 1969) to extend the D train entirely underground to Burke Avenue and White Plains Road.
The Bronx and Upper Manhattan are less friendly to east-west lines than other areas of the city because of their rising and falling topography -- the price you pay for having the riviers run north-south. The D would have either had to deep tunnel under the Bronx River or come above ground as an elevated. Back in the 30s, before the rise of NIMBYs, getting land for an exit portal at Webster Ave. would have been easier, but New York wasn't exactly rolling in dough in the 30s either, and what money there was went towards completing the midtown portion of the IND.
The problem here is one of the Bronx's geography. 205 St is actually on a very high ridge which ends at Webster Av. Its elevation was above the Third Av El tracks and incidentially was a good place for photographs. The tracks for the Concourse line extend at least 700 feet beyond the station platform which would bring them very close if not up to Webster Av,although they are in subway I doubt if they would be below the level of Third Av.This is one of the few terminals on the system where trains change end beyond the platforms,they do it at 179 St and 168 St but thats because of the storage yards there.
Larry,RedbirdR33
You are confusing 205th St with 206th st which is at ahigher elevation. See my notes about the 205th St station in the line by line Concourse description. The 3rd Ave El photographs have been updated with the correct notations.
Yes, that's right, the east end of the D train station is at 205th Street and Perry Avenue. The tunnel for the turnaround tracks extends another two blocks or so. The intersection of 205th and Webster, where the el ran, is level.
Mellow: Your right. I used to vist friends who lived on Hull Av between 205 St and 206 St and I remember that steep climb. I had moved the IND one block further north.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I lived on Decatur over 30 years ago and had about 18 years of experience in NYC subway, el and trolley travel.
When I went to Cardinal Hayes, in the morning (rush) via the Concourse Line D to Bedford Park and then the CC to 161st St, Xfer to the Jerome Ave line 1 stop down to 149th and school. I usually returned via the 7th Ave train 1 stop to xfer to the 3rd Ave El, then home to 204th. Sometimes, if I was up early enough, I took the el to school. The running time on the el was quite a bit longer but more enjoyable. If I ever got out of school early, I would take the Jerome Ave line to Mosholu to view any changes in the line and take a long walk home from there.
As I said in an earlier post I used to vist friends who lived on Hull Av,actually they were a couple that my mother would vist. I would use the time to take rides on the 3 Avenue El.
205 Street always struck me as an odd place for a subway station since most of the Bronx stations were always above ground. The Grand Concourse seems a proper place for a subway. The secondary entrance to 205 St Statin is I think at Perry Av and when the trees are in leaf seems positively bucolic. The subway seems most out of place there
Larry,RedbirdR33
In the case of the third Avenue line, it probably would have been demolition long before 73' if a D connection was made.
Anyone have any thoughts why this connection was ever made.
World War II put a stop to that and many other transit projects.
--Mark
Last month, I read an article in a local Brooklyn weekly that mentioned the RPA (Regional Plan Association) proposed the sale of the LIRR Flatbush branch to NYCT as a concession to NYC subway riders when the LaGuardia/JFK shuttle is completed. Also, the RPA study noted how most -- if not all -- LIRR commuters into Brooklyn have to switch to the subway anyhow since their destinations are overwhelmingly the lower Manhattan/Wall Street area.
Does anyone have any particulars on this? Also, wouldn't turning the LIRR Flatbush Line into a subway be redundant since the "A" train pretty much already parellels the same route through Brooklyn and a short stretch of Queens?
Doug aka BMTman
The RPA did have the details on a web site earlier this year but it appears to be gone now. They were also sending out Adobe Acrobat Files on email requests in February, you might ask karen@rpa.org. I don't know if I can resend it without violating some copyrights.
Anyhow, the RPA proposal in a nutshell is essentially a super-express line to Jamaica using only the existing LIRR stops. It would connect to their Second Avenue Subway express track proposal with a new East River tunnel (not clear under which street) and also provide direct service from Grand Central Terminal to JFK Airport through what I suppose is being built as the AirTrain.
Although it would parallel the Fulton Street Line for much of the run, it would further alleviate the Queens Boulevard crunch by having much faster service to Lower Manhattan.
It does make a lot of sense to me, but it would have some phenomenal engineering problems that it would have to overcome, like tunneling under the multiple levels of subway near the Flatbush/Atlantic/Fourth Avenue mess already there. That would, in my mind, make it almost as bad as building the Sixth Avenue subway at 34 Street.
Gary, the only way that the RPA's LIRR Flatbush/2nd Ave. Express plan could work out in regards to the problems of the Atlantic Ave./Pacific St. junction would be a complete rebuilding of the Flatbush Ave. station of the LIRR whereby the entire line would have to be lowered to run underneath the existing subway lines. This in itself would be a multi-million dollar project without taking into consideration the additional work needed further west down Atlantic Ave. where, again, the LIRR would have to be made to pass under another existing line (the F at Smith Street).
And of course there would be the inevitable route to a East River crossing tunnel that would have to be built in (or through) the famous historic Atlantic Ave. LIRR tunnel that is 'owned' by Bob Diamond. Certainly the project may end up being to0 involved and costly to implement.
Any thoughts?
Doug aka BMTman
I had three different thoughts on minimizing the Flatbush Atlantic engineering difficulty and thus cost somewhat, two would utilize the Brighton Line and the other the Fulton Street IND Line.
The first would be to eliminate the Flatbush Terminal, lower one existing yard track down to th Brighton Level with a grade that ends east of Carton Avenue and then use it to connect the current LIRR Westbound main track to the Brighton Soutthbound track just south of the Existing Brighton Atlantic Avenue Station. A second existing yard track would be converted to the LIRR Eastbound track with a deep broader curve sweeping and underpinning both Brighton Tracks. Grade crossings, are of course an anathema. Second Avenue subway lines in Manhattan could then connect using the Nassau Line or through a new tunnel replacing the Manhattan Bridge.
The second would be similar, but both Brighton tracks woudl be connected at the same grade. To retain Brighton Service, the Brighton Express tracks would be connected to the South Brooklyn (Smith Stree) IND express tracks with a tunnel under Prospect Park as proposed in othe scenarios. So there would be only IRT service under Flatbush Avenue. Then the LIRR tracks could be connected as above directly without the need for extensive and expensive underpinning. Farfetched, but It might even be possible to connect the LIRR to the existing Franklin Shuttle tracks with a junction near Franklin Avenue. (This would of course eliminate much of the current line being rebuilt and wouldn't fly politically, but what the heck!)
The third is perhaps a little exotic and there is some extensive undepinning of an existing line for one track . It connects the two LIRR tracks to the existing Fulton IND Local tracks using a new curve and new construction under Fort Green place (Go Brooklyn Tech) to bring the westbound track under and just north of the existing six track main under Schemerhorn. The junction for the eastbound track would follow most of the same basic route route but would not require underpinning, just a curve. The local tracks that lead to the existing Transit Museum could then be connected to the Second Avenue Line just like one of the original IND Second System proposals
I also had an idea for using the Lower level of Nevins Street with an IRT proposal, since that would probably be the easiest to build even with the existing severed trackway at Schmerhorn street but I don't think the existing Lexington and Seventh Avenue Express tracks could handle any more service.
The only way to get the LIRR past the Flatbush Terminal would be to have the tracks furthest away from the 2/3 platform make a 45 degree turn north and head (over the A/G and G tracks) towards Pratt Instatute, which is out of the way of the other lines that swiss cheese downtown Brooklyn.
From there, you could turn the tunnel back west over the F/Rutgers Tunnel and closer to the Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges, where a new East River tunnel could be built.
Ideally, it would be a dual level job like 63rd St., with one level used by the LIRR for a downtown terminal (say, around Fulton and Water Streets) while the other tunnel level could either connect with a new Second Ave. line or serve as a Manhattan Bridge replacement for the B/D/Q.
Better yet, just bore a deep tunnel well underneath the entire Atlantic Ave/Pacific St. complex. It works in London.
Chris, that was just what I had in mind (see my earlier post).
Doug aka BMTman
[Last month, I read an article in a local Brooklyn weekly that mentioned the RPA (Regional Plan Association) proposed the sale of the LIRR Flatbush branch to NYCT as a concession to NYC subway riders when the LaGuardia/JFK shuttle is completed. Also, the RPA study noted how most -- if not all -- LIRR commuters into Brooklyn have to switch to the subway anyhow since their destinations are overwhelmingly the lower Manhattan/Wall Street area.]
Keep in mind that the RPA is prone to making grandiose pronouncements that have zero chance of seeing the light of day. I'd have to include this plan as one of them. The LIRR *needs* Flatbush Avenue as Penn Station is too crowded to accommodate all rush-hour trains. That will change when the LIRR gets access to Grand Central Terminal, but that's decades off. In addition, Flatbush Avenue is a big convenience to commuters who work in lower Manhattan, not to mention the substantial number who work in Brooklyn. Even with stops at Boland's Landing, East New York and Nostrand Avenue, the trip between Flatbush and Jamaica is *fast* - I can't imagine that the subway could do anything close.
Where is there a stop called "Boland's Landing" on the Flatbush LIRR?
[Where is there a stop called "Boland's Landing" on the Flatbush
LIRR? ]
Boland's Landing is the employee-only stop at the Morris Park diesel shops. It is located a short distance west of Jamaica near the tunnel portal. There are old wooden side platforms, only two carlengths long. Boland's Landing is easy to miss if you're on a Flatbush Avenue train not stopping there.
Ahhhh, thanks for that info. I've ridden that line a few times and have never seen that station. I'll be looking for it the next time I do.
What's the employee stop called as you leave the East River tunnels ?
I've seen staff get off at both several times, but you have to be a rail buff at the window because they're always in the lead car.
P.S. Isn't it only on Eastbound side of the Penn/East Rv line ?
Mr t__:^)
I don't know if they have a name for, or an official "stop" just east of the tunnels. I'd just call it hunterspoint, since the tunnel portal is within stone's throw of the hunterspoint station.
There is also a small platform (one door's worth) in front of Harold tower, adjacent to the southernmost track (Is this LIRR mainline 4 here, or a continuation of line 1?)
I've seen pickups and drop-offs done at both locations (tunnel portal, and Harold).
Yeah, I recall many a ride into Brooklyn when the M-1 would make a stop at this rickety-wooden platform for about half a minute. I had no idea that stop had a name to it. Usually a lone diesel worker would get out and proceed to cross the tracks. I think that train stop was around 8:30 am or thereabouts.
Doug aka BMTman
Even with LIRR gaining access to GCT, Flatbush Avenue will still be the likely destination of choice for those Long Islanders working downtown. The choice of boarding a crowded 2,3,4 or 5 at Atlantic Avenue (not to mention the M,N and R at Pacific) definitely beats attempting to squeeze yourself onto the downtown 4,5 or 6 at Grand Central.
I suspect that the LIRR may get a surprise if and when they ever do make it into GCT in that they may experience a ridership shift beyond expectations. This would be similar to what NJT encountered when they opened up the Midtown Direct.
On the subject of Boland's Landing, is there now an eastbound platform as well. Going back about 10 years, there was a platform westbound, but eastbound there was only a stairway up to a small platform big enough for one or two people only. At night, workers wanting to board would have to shine a flashlight or lantern into the tunnel so that eastbound trains would know to stop.
And who was Boland anyway?
Yes there is an eastbound 2 car platform. Boland was the head of the anti-smoke abatement program at morris park in the steam age.
One of the options in the MTA's Lower Manhattan Access Study is to build a "high amenity subuway" (we ride the low amenity subway) for the exclusive use of commuter rail riders. It would incorporate the LIRR Flatbush Branch, take over the "underutilized" Montigue St tunnel, and continue on to Grand Central, so commuter rail riders would not have to ride the subway. Who'll pay for it? The same people who will pay for the LIRR to GCT. The "inferior" people on the "low amenity" subway.
I pointed out my aggravation to the project director of that study, when he was here for a public meeting at City Planning. He said that the MTA can't do anything for the city -- and those dependent on the Manhattan Bridge -- because of "lack of leadership." There's leadership, all right. Its leading my money right out of town.
Larry, unfortunately, the MTA has that 'elitist' mentality that tends to permeate most corporate entities -- appease those in the higher tax brackets at the expense of the 'working class'.
Why should we be surprised anymore?
Doug aka BMTman
Is there anywhere where we can see this study? Perhaps you could supply a copy to nyctransit for posting.
This study is right on the MTA website, the only MTA item so posted, and the only part of the MTA website where feedback is possible.
You didn't provide a specific URL. There are a bunch of PDF files at the MTA site. So I delved through a number of them, visually scanning them and also searching for "Montague."
I didn't find the specific references you cite to "a 'high amenity subuway' nor any use of the Montague Street tunnel "for the exclusive use of commuter rail riders." Nor mentioned that the Montague Street tunnel was "underutilized."
Especially I found no indication that any such project would be paid for by City people. You've made a number of statements in various posts to the effect that the MTA is [secretly?] grabbing money for the suburbs without a single specific documented instance. You used my well-documented instance of the MTA "loaning" $135 million from the LIRR's account to the City subways about a decade ago as "proof" that the MTA must be doing the same the other way.
This study is one of those planning studies required by the Federal Government as a condition of receiving aid to satisfy requirements that there be some public involvement in planning studies. These studies gather a lot of ideas, including from the public, many of which are off the wall, but they get included anyhow.
In general, the "powers that be" come into these studies with pretty firm ideas on what they want to do. Whose ideas do you think get built?
The study explores many possible ways of improving access to the Lower Manhattan Area. The Second Avenue subway is mentioned prominently, plus various new lines, new tunnels, and other schemes running from the grand to the petty.
I did find several references to use of the Montague Street tunnel among many others. We can safely assume these were suggested by people who look at maps and like to draw lines without knowing what those lines represent or the conditions on the ground.
Another suggestion in the same study would take the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Line away from the LIRR and give it to the subway system.
So maybe you'll be able to sleep a little better at night. I can state with confidence that the LIRR 20-year plan has no mention whatsoever of any such use of the Montague Street tunnel. If some policy wonks actually do decide to shove the LIRR into the subway system, the LIRR will probably be the last to know.
(Montigue Subway). The reference to the "high amenity subway" and the Montigue St tunnel was in an early document, which did not make it to the website. I complained, and so did many others. But I'm still not sleeping at night.
As for who pays for what, money is fungible, and everything can be disguised. You have to go to the bottom line, and there -- with the exception of its health and social services industries -- the city is getting ripped off by the federal and state governments. I suspect it is a deal -- our representatives agree to less for our schools and subways in exchange for more for more for our hospitals and non-profits. I don't like that deal.
If people from the Metro North and LIRR service areas were to pay for them, through a commuter tax or county tax payments, then an express subway and/or LIRR to GCT connection are fine ideas. It would even be worth it for the city to pay part of it, since the commuter rail lines do serve city residents. But I suspect the deal would be worse than that.
This whole bit about better Lower Manhattan access on the LIRR overlooks a crucial detail - there *already is* excellent access! It's quicker to get to Flatbush Avenue from Jamaica and points east than it is to get to Penn Station. From Flatbush Avenue, it's a fast ride on the IRT right into Lower Manhattan - not even ten minutes. So why all these "consultants' studies" when there's no real problem in the first place?
The IRT from Atlantic Avenue is heavily overburdened. Having taken the line any number of times the crush crowding between the Wall Street area and Atlantic Avenue is incredible for all the passengers.
The drastic differential between farebox recoveries for dense urban transit and 'suburban' services is well documented. This is a direct result of who has control of the pursestrings. If for example, here in the Bay Area, local bus/streetcar usage were subsidized at the same rate as BART's longest rides, fares would be less than 25c instead of the $1-$1.35 as they are. Recent studies have documented that newer more 'desirable' AND distant suburbs are monopolising the infrastructure budgets in metro areas far out of proportion to their population numbers. See Deep Throat--Follow the money Bob, Follow the money.
There might be a logical reason why more money goes to suburban transit than is apparently justified by the population distribution: reduction in automobile use. One of the criteria used to evaluate transit capital projects for funding purposes is how many auto trips it will eliminate. Such a measure inherently biases in favor of more suburban service because a dollar spent there will eliminate more car trips than a dollar spent in the densly-populated parts of the city where auto use and auto ownership are much lower.
Does this incorrectly skew which projects are approved and which are rejected? Of course it does, but it's being done in error, not because some bureaucrat intentionally sets out to "stick it to" the city and send all the federal (or state) money to the suburbs. (Whether SOME Assembly or Congress members from non-urban districts purposely "screw" cities as a vote-getting ploy is another question.) Remember the First Corrolary to Occam's Razor: never attribute to malice what can as easily be explained by stupidity.
Take a look at
http://www.lowermanhattanaccess.com/planning/lmas/index.html
It details the MTA Short list, the top five proposals that the MTA has reduced from the 100 or so ideas submitted. This site also gives you the history and solicits input.
Underutilized?!? Excuse me?!? The Montague St. tunnel is at capacity right now. Maybe they meant the Rutgers St. tunnel.
Nope, they meant the Montigue St tunnel. I guess they felt it was underutilized by people who count. Another bright idea is forcing all Lex Ave subway cars onto the "underutilized" local tracks south of Grand Central, to make room for a special subway just for suburban commuters on the express tracks.
If the Lexington Avenue local track is underutilized, I guess they would like to see the subways cars packed liked the college kids sometimes put 15-20 people in an automobile, with layers of people across the top.
With the exception of the Rutger St. tunnel, there isn't a single East River subway crossing that can be classified as "underutelized".
[He said that the MTA can't do anything for the city -- and those dependent on the Manhattan Bridge -- because of "lack of leadership." There's leadership, all right. Its leading my money right out of town.]
See what happens when NY trades Senator Pothole for Not A Clue Chuck.
It will only get worse when Senator Rodham takes her "place" as the second Senator from New York who doesn't care one bit about the state, but only their career.
Best of Luck NY!
Jim K.
Chicago
Agreed. D'amato was annoying, but he had influence on Capitol Hill. NY will be further handicapped in acquiring federal funding for capital projects when Moynihan retires, reguardless of who replaces him. It was his influence that save the funding for the new Penn station project that will convert the main postoffice into a new station.
With any luck you folks won't get stuck with Billary. I hear that she's not meeting with a very favorable reception on her current state tour - lots of folks telling her to go home to Arkansas (where I gather they don't want her either, but that's another story).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Senator Billary of New York)?
Hey Jim, isn't she really from Illinois?
Seriously, it bothers me that the Republican congress sticks it to us because most New Yorkers vote Democratic. But it bothers me even more that a Republican Congress will still stick it to us with Giuliani as Senator, because Republicans hate cities and people who live in them. And it drive me nuts that Democrats like Hillary routinely sell us out to attract votes elsewhere in trade for advancing their social issues or their own careers.
Looks like I'll be asking for a write in and voting for Daffy Duck again in 2000.
Larry -- I feel your pain (sorry about that redundant Clintonian line) -- but that is exactly why we seriously need a third party in this country. We get it from both ends with the Repubs and the Dems -- without the grease ;-)
There are two upcoming parties in the New York area: The Working Families Party that I believe is going to run Sal Albanese for Mayor next time around; Labor Party Advocates who are trying to team with the Green Party (remember Al "Grandpa Munster" Lewis when he ran for Governor last year?). I know, these guys don't have a chance in hell of winning. But having alternatives to the "standard" parties is what our freedoms in this country are all about.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes. By all means. The solution to being ignored by both major parties is to make sure that none of us vote for them. Then they will surely reward us by giving us what we want. Dream on.
Yeah, Senator Pothole was obviously doing a fantastic job of replacing the Manhattan Bridge...
Larry keeps putting up the numbers, and they are not good for the northeastern, populous states. A lot more money goes from NY, and PA, and NJ, CT, OH, IL, etc., to Uncle Sam than Uncle Sam gives back. This is not D'Amato's fault, despite my low opinion of the man. One BIG reason is that y'all in New York have as many US Senators as the folks in Wyoming, despite the fact that there are close to 100 times more of you, or some huge factor like that.
This has been going on for years. I think another reason might be that areas like the South are politically a lot more of a solid bloc than the North. For years the whole south was completely, 100% Democrat; now it is very heavily republican. In both situations, the South ended up having tremendous influence over the party in charge of Congress. Look at the congressional leadership now (a scary picture...)
I'm not excited about Hillary running, but I sure think Giuliani would make a terrible Senator. He's moody and has to be in charge of things. This may help him as mayor but I think it would hurt him as a Senator. Plus, most Democrats naturally dislike him, but he would have little in common with the Republican leadership in the senate. Of course, NO ONE is unbiased about the guy. Rudy definitely has enough personality to assure that we all have strong opinions about him, so who knows what he'd be like.
I think Hillary and Rudy are a matched set in personality if not politics.
Neither are exactly team players. You should have seen the press in DC when it became obvious Hillary was going to run--writers were asking whether being Senator wouldn't be a step down for someone so used to being so close to power.
I can't imagine Hillary or Rudy being very good at being Junior Senators, having to deal with the "club" of the Senate. If Hillary wins, New Yorkers better hope that there is a Democratic Senate and a Deomcratic President in 2001--most observers seems to think that the former is unlikely and the latter problematic.
The good news is that they both have strong philosophical positions on national and international issues, and isn't that what the Congress is supposed to be about? Thats' why politically active people OUTSIDE NY are excited about the race.
Unfortunately, for the past 50 years while Northeasterners have gone to Washington to take philosophical positions, their states were getting fleeced. It's hard to believe that in 1961 a french geographer called the northeast corridor the "richests, best educated, best housed, and best serviced region in the world." So the federal government sought to even that out by building new stuff elsewhere with our money, while our old stuff deteriorated. And the rest of the country isn't exactly grateful, they are hostile. We're still treated as a rich city by federal matching formulas, with 40,000 children in foster care, 400,000 people on SSI, 680,000 people on welfare (with the cost shifting to the city), etc. The formulas were set in the early 1960s.
At least Rudy understands this, and he will fight. But he will lose. Hillary won't even try. Being on the wrong end of this, I've developed a hostile attitude toward government programs, a big time respect for the (much ignored) equal protection clause of the constitution. Any government function should be provided absolutely equally to everyone, or not at all.
If Rudy runs, he will win. The "carpetbagger" issue will be his main ammunition, and the hatred of Hillary Clinton will probably stifle any republicans who dislike Guiliani (there are a lot). Hillary, although married to Bill, is a political novice with little knowledge of the state she's running for. With the Republicans controlling Congress for the forseeable future, it would be in NY's best interest to elect at least 1 republican senator.
Most of Rudy voters will be upstate hillbillys or cops. How many people from the city will vote for him. He taken away a lot of our everyday rights and his police don't give a **** about it's citizens.
So are you saying if they re-held the '97 election between Rudy and Ruth Messinger, she would win this time?
Another post without an E-mail address = another phoney.
First of all, Greg, you are a political nitwit. Besides that, once again, watch the language. It impresses nobody here and only serves to point out what kind of person you likely are.
Well, I have to disagee. There are many people in the city from Carribean and Asian communties who would vote for Rudy. Alot of them liked his school voucher program and although may not like his bullying tactics, know that he can get things done.
Hillary is a wanna-be politician who will surround herself with a-s kissers who will tell her what see wants to hear, but not the truth.
BTW, everyone who lives upstate is not neccesarily a "hillbilly".
Unfortunately, you have a very narrow view of your fellow New Yorkers.
Doug aka BMTman
[BTW, everyone who lives upstate is not neccesarily a "hillbilly"]
Not according to the _Times_. Heck, they think anyone outside Manhattan is a hillbilly ... if a _Times_ writer ever made it over to, say, Downtown Brooklyn, he or she would be astonished to see that they actually have electricity and telephones.
(The Times thinks everyone are hillbillies).
Is it just me, or is the Times running a lot of articles about the Manhattan-And-Related Crowd holding the rest of us in contempt lately? Just today, I read about Manhattanites in the Hamptons fleeing to Connecticut because the inferior people of Nassau County were showing up out there. Then they had an article about a snooty private school battling the snooty neighbors in Bedford. Are these people really that bad, or is the Times pardoying their own readers?
[Is it just me, or is the Times running a lot of articles about the Manhattan-And-Related Crowd holding the rest of us in contempt lately? Just today, I read about Manhattanites in the Hamptons fleeing to Connecticut because the inferior people of Nassau County were showing up out there. Then they had an article about a snooty private school battling the snooty neighbors in Bedford. Are these people really that bad, or is the Times pardoying their own readers?]
Can't say I've noticed, but I'll keep a look out. It probably is attributable to self-parody. As far as I know, the _Times'_ editorial voice is still very much in Upper West Side hands, so to speak.
BTW Rudy is also surrounded with nit-wit butt kissers who don't tell the truth. It seems to be a characteristic of pols that they need to be fawned over. What scares me about Hillary is that she would be surrounded by those who already get more money than average in NYC, not those who get less. That, plus the need to pander to the hate-the-city upstate and suburban crowd, means bad things for tranportation and education in NYC. That would be sacrificed -- AGAIN.
Larry, you'll get no argument from me on those points.
Doug aka BMTman
198 miles down the road the political follies also reign. In Baltimore Towne (where I happen to reside and vote (and incendentally also pay lots of taxes)) there's a Mayoral election looming (Primary in Sept., General in December - Merry Xmas!) with 27 filing for the job (Why, any reasonable person would ask.) until the field was reduced slightly when 3 of the candidates were arrested on various charges. We've got 5 front-runners and the political wisdom is totally confused - 4 of the 5 are Black and the 5th is white. Of the 4, 2 each are from the east and west black political clubs, who take to each other with the enthusism of the Hatfields and the McCoys. The smart money seems to think that the black vote will be split and Martin O'Malley (the 5th major candidate) will capture the Dem nomination, which will be either good or bad, depending on your point of view. We can't get carpetbaggers like Ms. Clinton, Maryland law does require a reasonable residency requirement.
If we feel like it, we'll chime in from to time on the local pol situation if some of the NY Subtalkers will keep all of us posted on the New York follies.
[That, plus the need to pander to the hate-the-city upstate and suburban crowd, means bad things for tranportation and education in NYC.]
You have to draw a distinction between suburbanites and upstaters when it comes to attitudes toward NYC. Many suburbanities, or their parents' generation, may have fled the city, but they have at least some interest in its well-being. A small but not insignificant minority commute into Manhattan, and many others travel their occasionally for shopping and entertainment. As a result, they want the city to have a decent transportation network and safe streets. In contrast, many upstaters (roughly speaking, those living more than 25 miles north of I-84) could care less about NYC.
If Hillary was elected and Bush beats Gore for president none of this would matter -- She'd stage about 18 months worth of high-profile, low results PR events when she first got into office to show everyone how effective an advocate she is, then she'd start running for president.
....Ok, she'd actually start running for president the day after the November, 2000 election, but after the first 18 months, she wouldn't give a damn about any New Yorkers -- city, suburbs or upstate -- unless they could fork over $1,000 or more in campaign contributions.
And just to kind of keep this on topic, we know her favorite team is the Yankees; I wonder if she prefers the 4, D or rush hour B train to get to the stadium?
Actually, she'd probably prefer NJ Transit. I'm sure the current stadium isn't up to her standards.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I saw her on the C train at 163rd a few weeks ago looking rather confused. Seems she was using one of those tourist maps which hadn't been updated for the terminal change back in early 1998.
As a Californian I know what goes on in New York is not really any of my business, but as a native New Yorker who lived there until I was 14, perhaps I have a claim to an opinion or two. It just galls me that a carpetbagger like Hillary, dirty up to her eyeballs, can come into a great state and win a Senate seat when she hasn't lived there a day. I'm glad I'm coming to New York this year (Sea Beach Man arrives on Friday) because I swear if New Yorkers are dumb enough to elect her to the Senate it's the last time I ever come. Please guys and ladies, don't do it. GO RUDY!!!
I doubt Hillary would ever take a subway to see a ballgame. The Secret Service would be concerned.
Not take a Subway?
They'd want to clear out the entire ballfield for "security" purposes (maybe including half the players).
RHIP.
Those who believe that Hillary won't win are thinking of a two person race. Expect Lazio and Giuliani to stay in no matter who wins the Republican primary with Pataki backing Lazio, splitting the vote. It's personal.
How about money? I spoke with a Wall St guy who lives in Connecticut, and said he'd consider moving back to NY just to vote against Rudy. Remember those insider trading busts, with people getting hauled off in handcuffs? Like those searches in poor neighborhoods, it turned out that not everyone Rudy had hauled off in handcuffs turned out to be guilty (who says he only does it to Blacks and Latinos?). The Wall St crowd has hated him ever since.
[Those who believe that Hillary won't win are thinking of a two person race. Expect Lazio and Giuliani to stay in no matter who wins the Republican primary with Pataki backing Lazio, splitting the vote. It's personal.]
Maybe, but I doubt it. Hatred for Hillary should be enough to convince Lazio to drop out if it appears that he's hurting Giuliani's chances.
Hatred? Out here in suburbia hatred seems to describe it. Seated directly behind me on my regular LIRR train this afternoon were two mid-40ish ladies. One of them referred to Mrs. Clinton by a term I hadn't heard in years. The first word was 'Carpet' but the second surely was not 'bagger'. BTW, that was the nicest thing either had to say about her.
I think that NYers were initially buying into all the media hype surrounding Mrs. Clinton's candidacy but now that the issues & non-issues are coming to the surface, NYers are listening less tot he hype and looking more at the candidate.
Hey guys, why not call these postings 'Rudy & Hillary' since the original topic in these posts was in regards to 'The Future of LIRR Flatbush branch'.
The title is WAAAAAAY off topic.
Thanx, Doug aka BMTman
The future outcome of the race for Senator in New York can have a profound effect on the transportation spending and projects of New York State - do you wish to question relevance again?
New York has lost one, and is losing the other, long-time, politically connected and savvy Senators. You already know what to expect from the one that replaced Senator Pothole – not much. Do you want to risk replacing the great man, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, with someone who can not begin to fill his shoes.
Although I'm not of Mr. Moynihan's ideological following, the man is a thinker, can negotiate, cares about people, and can get the job done. For New Yorkers to replace him with the likes of Hillary Rodham (Clinton) would be, as I see it, a slap in the face for the Honorable Mr. Moynihan. He deserves a better predecessor, and New York deserves a better Senator.
BTW, if you don't care for the subject of the thread, do as I do, just don't read it.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim, I have no problem with the subject matter of the thread, just that the part in brackets () was totally far-afield of the Rudy/Hillary stuff and completely lost it's focus, that's all.
Anyhow, I agree with you about Dan Moyihan. However, don't count Schumer out completely as he resides in Brooklyn and surely on occasion will ride mass transit. I met him at the premeire of the R-68 in Brighton Beach (back around '87) and I wouldn't totally count him out in regards to assistance in transit matters.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug -
As I'm not a New Yorker, but originally from Philadelphia, I really am just an "outsider" in the politics of NYS.
As for Chuckie Schumer, do you think the man has any idea what the subway is all about. Oh, he may have been at an photo opt in '87, but come on, all he knows about urban transportation is a black limo.
BTW, it is the same here in Chi-town. If the alderman, or the Mayor, were suddenly forced to ride the CTA, it would become the crown jewel of transit systems around the world overnight!
Jim K.
Chicago
To put it back on topic, could you imagine either of them on a subway in Brooklyn, ever? People on Long Island may not like her, as Steve says, but the North Shore and upper Westchester are probably the only places in the state where she would fit in.
Rudy could fit in on a subway. But I can't see him riding it.
To put it back on topic, could you imagine either of them on a subway in Brooklyn, ever? People on Long Island may not like her, as Steve says, but the North Shore and upper Westchester are probably the only places in the state where she would fit in.
Nah. Hillary is more the Hamptons type than the North Shore type.
Rudy could fit in on a subway. But I can't see him riding it.
He must have, though. How else could he get to all those Yankees games when he was growing up in Brooklyn?
Paul, he was probably a spoiled brat while growing up -- he was most likely driven to the Bronx by his dad.
Actually, an article on his youth was written in a recent issue of 'Brooklyn Bridge' magazine making note of how he spent only his very early years in Flatbush, residing on Hawthorne Street near Kings County Hospital. I believe I read the family moved out to Long Island when he was about 8 or 9 years old.
Doug aka BMTman
So, you consider people who are driven around by their parents to be spoiled brats? To you, only an "elite" group of people who live in the older parts of major cities are not spoiled?
No, Jack, I was merely making mention of what the article in 'Brooklyn Bridge' implied about Rudy's upbringing.
If they have a website, I'd gladly direct you to it.
Doug aka BMTman
[People on Long Island may not like her, as Steve says, but the North Shore and upper Westchester are probably the only places in the state where she would fit in.]
The North Shore and upper Westchester? No way! In those places, Hillary would fit in like a sliced onion in a strawberry shortcake. She's a picture-perfect match for the Upper West Side.
Peter, don't forget the Yuppie-infested Park Slope section of Brooklyn.
I bet she's their #1 babe!
Doug aka BMTman
[re support for Hillary in Park Slope]
Dunno, Park Slope may be affluent, but it isn't as ideological as the Upper West Side (thankfully!) People in Park Slope and similar areas support politicians that are most likely to preserve their wealth. Traditional pocketbook issues, in other words, although in this case they are *very* expensive pocketbooks :-)
On the Upper West Side, in contrast, people will support positions against their economic self-interest, if the ideological slant is favorable.
Speaking for my own little area of Floral Park, nobody likes Hilly out here and most of us are just hoping she'll get the message and go away. I'm sure there's someone out in Arkansas without a dental plan who could use her help. Salvatore.
[Seated directly behind me on my regular LIRR train this afternoon were two mid-40ish ladies. One of them referred to Mrs. Clinton by a
term I hadn't heard in years. The first word was 'Carpet' but the second surely was not 'bagger'. BTW, that was the nicest thing either had to say about her.]
Hmmmm, I'm trying to think of a nasty expression that starts with "carpet," but I seem to be coming up empty-handed, pardon the mixed metaphor :-)
Three-way race? How? If either Lazio or Giuliani take a minor party line, they're through in the Republican Party. If Rudy takes the Liberal Party line, that's the end of his political ambitions. If he lays low and is a good boy he can hope for Republican support if Pataki loses his power and Rudy wants to run for Governor someday or against Schumer in 2004.
Lazio is a rising star in the region and in the Republican Party. He is the kind of moderate who could draw broad support in the state if he doesn't act as a spoiler in the Senate race, causing Hillary to win. Too conservative? He is well liked by Newsday, the most politically Liberal general circulation newspaper in downstate NY.
However, even supposing there were a three-way race, this would be Hillary's best shot. But you also have to consider that Hillary and Rudy could split the Urban/Liberal vote and let Lazio win.
As to Wall Street people. I'll bet Rudy is shaking in his boots in terror of The All Important Wall Street Broker Fat Cat Vote.
Perhaps those rural citizens would care more about NYC if it suddenly stopped sending more tax revenues to Albany then it gets in benefits.
Back on topic -- the key thing is that transit riders have already lost. What federal representative do we have that cares about transportation. Moynihan!
As for state political issues, there are three possible alliances -- city/suburbs, city/upstate, and upstate/suburbs against the city.
The city and upstate both have lots of poor people and lots of needs. In theory they could join to require that state taxes and spending, rather than local taxes and spending, be higher (New York State has a low state share of state and local spending and a high local share -- this benefits affluent enclaves).
The city and the suburbs have resources. Both could benefit from the New Hampshire solution -- you pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and very little money will pass through state coffers. The city would benefit slightly -- and have a threat of more hostility removed. The suburbs would cash in big time. Upstate would be devastated and surprised -- they absolutely believe that they are subsidizing us, because the state unfairly gives us some of our own money back.
The actual alliance is upstate and the suburbs against the city. What do upstate and the suburbs have in common? About the only thing I can think of is race.
At least upstate votes against bond issues. If it weren't for them, we'd be even more in debt than we are.
Alliance building is not what it used to be since Ronald Reagan.
NYC being a separate state would be interesting.
I think a non NYC NY state's citizens would get a shock in their tax bills with the increases that would be needed to maintain their services at present levels. Someone said that "New York City is the engine that pumps the entire New York State economy". Truer words were never spoken.
I say let em be free of us for 1 year, then watch as the beg us to come back. LOL.
Be careful what you wish for...
The only rights Rudy has taken away from New Yorkers is the right to urinate in public and the "right" to be hunted down by criminals on the street. I say with rights like that, fascism looks awfully good.
He's the most sucessful mayor this city has had since Laguardia.
Rudy's also taken away our right to ride around the City Hall Loop!
BTW Todd, I finally rode around the loop about two weeks ago. Very interesting ride. Next trip down, give me a call and we'll do it,for purely journalistic reasons, of course.
Well, he isn't perfect!
LOL
Yeah, well he also has tried to take away the rights of LEGAL street vendors to make an honest living.
Not to mention that he is the first NYC Mayor EVER to deter street artists from displaying their craft (one of the long-held attractions of the summer in places like Greenwich Village).
Rudy is not only tuff on crime, but just about everything else. He just doesn't no how to "sift gears" from his old job of Prosecutor to being the Mayor of the largest and most diverse city in the world.
Doug aka BMTman
While I understand Rudy's desire to get rid of street vendors, I'm not a big fan of it. Yes, they do block key intersections and most have an awful health record. But I think a better way can be found without taking away the sole means of support for many families. As for street "artists", i can sum up the attitude about cracking down on them by most New Yorkers with 2 words: big deal.
Did you ever wonder how Rudy could just decide to push vendors off the street without getting a new law through the City Council?
Its because the New York City Democrats have a particular philosophy of government -- make everyone and everything illegal, but only enforce against the "wrong" people in the "wrong" places. Everyone and everything in NYC is illegal. Some are forced to pay "compensation" and some are not. Let's start a small list.
1. 15,000 businesses that violate zoning rules that shouldn't be there.
2. Everyone in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx with a wood deck in their backyard.
3. Everyone who double parks during alternate side of the street.
4. Every business that loads across the sidewalk (note that most storefronts do not have loading bays).
5. Almost everyone in the van transportation business.
6. Every health club.
Etc. Etc.
If you're breaking the law, you have no right to complain -- even if others, with better connections, are breaking it more. But just try to repeal all the stupid laws. How will the politicos get "paid?" Passing laws outlawing things appeases the intolerant, and gets you votes. Enforcing them generally loses votes. The smart thing to do is enforce them only against certain people. New York is a place where everyone is a criminal, but only real criminals come out on top.
Rudy enforced more laws. But he could enforce even more. And he's not the one who put them there.
If Rudy beats Hillary for Senate, she could always run for Mayor (yes, she really could).
How does that strike SubTalkers?
I doubt that her chances of becoming Mayor on NYC are any better than her chances of becoming Senator Hilly right now. Even the Democratic Sheep of NY are waking up to the fact that their democratic party was behaving cynically when they came up with the hairbrained idea to run her. If she ever did become mayor, say good bye to the Gracie Mansion furniture and dinnerware.
[I doubt that her chances of becoming Mayor on NYC are any better than
her chances of becoming Senator Hilly right now. Even the Democratic
Sheep of NY are waking up to the fact that their democratic party was
behaving cynically when they came up with the hairbrained idea to run
her. If she ever did become mayor, say good bye to the Gracie Mansion
furniture and dinnerware.]
Even traditionally Democratic groups are deserting Hillary. The latest polls show her trailing among Jews, and roughly even with Giuliani among Hispanics. Any Democratic candidate for statewide office who can't get a heavy plurality of those two groups is in deep trouble.
Peter, where do you get your statistics?
It was either in the latest edition of the _Economist_, which I was persuing at a newsstand, or online recently in Salon. I can't remember which. But I distinctly remember my surprise at seeing the poll figures (Hillary trailing among Jews, roughly even among Hispanics), as they went against the most basic common wisdom. Okay, maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but if Hillary can't win convincingly among two ultra-liberal groups like these, she's in deep doo-doo.
You know, by the time Lindsay came to the end of his second term in 1973, he was so disliked that The New Yorker (I think) ran a cartoon in which some movie-style monster (giant gorilla?) was knocking apart buildings in New York, and the onlookers were blaming Lindsay!
Yet when he announced that he wouldn't run for a third term, he had a renaissance of popularity. Freed from fear that he would be around for another term, people seemed to remember what they liked about him--and he was a charming and charismatic man.
Well Giuliani isn't charming and charismatic, but I think a lot of New Yorkers are grateful to him in their hearts for the huge drop in crime even as they dislike his passion for going after a lot of things that seem relatively harmless. I think this was an important factor in Ruth Messinger's firm defeat. She said she would be as tough on crime as Giuliani but in the privacy of the voting booth, I bet enough voters didn't really believe it to give Rudy enough of the Black and Hispanic vote to increase his margin even as his share of the white vote declined slightly.
So I think it will be the same in the Senate race. Like him or not, Rudy is a dyed-in-the-wool New Yorker, while I don't think Hillary will really be able to overcome the gnawing belief that she neither knows nor especially cares about New York, but is only using New York as a venue for her own agenda, which would be the same as if she were elected from New York, Illinois, Arkansas or Wyoming.
<ran a cartoon in which some movie-style monster (giant gorilla?) was knocking apart buildings in New York, and the onlookers
were blaming Lindsay!>>
Which was the basis of a great audience laugh when I saw Pelham 1-2-3 in the theater back in 1973. It was the scene when the mayor gets out of his car\at 28th and Park, and everybody boos -- that is the crowd in the movie. The crowd in the theater cracked up.
My favorite scenario is Rudy vs. Mark Green for Senator -- the loser is Mayor. Seriously, how much does either Rudy or Hillary know/care about transportation? Subtalkers have ALREADY lost. And Rick Lazio will presumably run a screw the city campaign, making him worse than either.
I'd like Hillary to run.
Straight back to Arkansas, or Illinois, or whatever state she says she is from.
Kevin Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
I for one would love to see her run for the Senate in New York. First I think she has a very good chance of getting beaten, but secondly, I don't want her getting the notion to come to Illinois and run!
Jim K.
Chicago
I think her time is now or never. By 2002 (when she could run in IL) she'll be yesterday's news--hubby will be out of office, so she needs some other way to be center stage--a high profile job in a possible Gore administration?
Plus if she then ran in IL she'd be attacked as a "perennial candidate." People would joke: "she didn't win in New York, what'll she do if doesn't win in Illinois, run in Wyoming?"
The RPA proposal web site was moved, for anyone interested, the full proposal in PDF format is available at www.rpa.org
Most A/C systems use Freon for coolig. Some use cold water. Can anything else be used? How about liquid carboon dioxide? Fast food places use CO2 to keep the sodas cold?
I guess liquid nitrogen is out of the question? Can that be used?
Turn a hot subway car into the North Pole in less than a minute.
This has been discussed a bit here lately, but I will try to summarize...
Freon is a refrigerant. The way your refrigerator and air conditioner work is by taking a refrigerant and compressing it to a liquid, letting it cool down to room temperature (because compressing things makes them hot - you can show yourself this with a bicycle pump) and then pumping it through an "expansion valve." Due to the design of the system, the pressure is much lower after it goes through the expansion valve - so the refrigerant almost instantly evaporates. When things evaporate, they cool down - this is why you sweat, for instance. So the refrigerant cools down. Now it is cold and thus able to cool off your refrigerator contents, or your room in the case of an air conditioner. It is then put back through the cycle.
A refrigerator and an air conditioner both need a refrigerant which boils at around room temperature. That is why freons - aka chlorofluorocarbons, or CFCs, work well as refrigerants. They boil around room temperature. Before Freons were invented, ammonia was used, but it is toxic and corrosive, so it is dangerous for a home appliance. (The ammonia you buy for cleaning is a solution of ammonia gas in water. Ammonia gas, the form used as a refrigerant, is much much more dangerous). CFCs were miracle compounds when they were invented - they replaced a dangerous product that was killing people. Of course, DDT, PCBs, etc., were also miracle products when they were invented... Ammonia, I have read, is still used in large industrial settings as a refrigerant, but is too unsafe to use in A/C situations.
You listed water. Water is not used as a refrigerant because it boils at too hot a temp. to be useful for A/C. HOWEVER, in large buildings with central AC, water is usually used as a coolant. It is piped through the air condtioner (which is outside the building) and cooled off. Then it is piped into the building, and air is blown over the water, cooling off the air, and warming the water. Then the water is piped back out to be cooled. The exact same system is used in buildings with hot water heating.
You also mentioned liquid nitrogen. Sure, you could dump a bunch of liquid N2 in a room to cool it off. But to _keep it_ cool, you would have to continually dump more liquid N2 in. It does not work well in a cycle, as a refrigerant, because it boils so far _below_ room temperature. Water boils too hot, Nitrogen boils too low. CFCs are just right. Actually, liquid nitrogen would do less than you think to cool off a subway station - you would need a LOT because it has a very low heat capacity.
Liquid carbon dioxide also boils at a temperature that is too low to be practical, I think. I am not sure of this, though. Other reasons it is not used as a refrigerant might be that it has to be at too high a pressure to be a liquid, or it tends to form a solid in the system and plug up the plumbing, or its heat capacity is too low. I dunno. Fast food joints have liquid CO2 just to be able to store a large amount of CO2 for carbonating sodas, not really to cool them off. In fact, they let the CO2 warm up before it comes inside, wasting its "coldness", usually.
You ask what else can be used as a refrigerant. That is a very hot topic right now. CFCs (Freon was a brand name for CFCs) destroy the ozone layer, a very big concern. Thus, they are not manufactured any more, due to a treaty signed about 10 years ago. HCFCs - hydrochloroflourocarbons - have largely replaced CFCs as refrigerants. (I think some HCFCs may be called Freons, but I am not sure). HCFCs are a lot better for the ozone layer than CFCs, but they are not completely safe. And HCFCs, like CFCs, also contribute to global warming. So we would like to get rid of HCFCs too. But with what? If you come up with the answer to that question, you will become very very rich.
The answer is probably refrigerators that work without refrigerants - using very different methods. These might involve magnetic cooling for instance, which I will not make any attempt to explain :)
As you said, Freon is a brand name that has been adopted do describe all similar items (like Xerox in the early days of the office copier)The colling capacity of HFCs is also lower than CFCs, and therefore an HFC system needs to be more powerful than a CFC system that would cool the same volume.
HFC refrigerants such as R134a are used in cars.
-Hank
I didn't know work cars were air conditioned, what about the R-127?
Just joking, I know how air conditioners work and what he meant by R134a. Just trying to keep a transit edge on this! :)
What do you think were some of the things that made the Independent City-Owned Lines (the IND Division) stand out when it was built in 1932 as compared to the BMT?
Here are some examples I can think of. I'd be interested in any other observations.
Each line was assigned a letter of the alphabet. Lines with a single letter represented expresses, and double-letters represented locals. The BMT had names of lines (Brighton, Culver, Astoria, Canarsie, etc).
On the BMT, passengers boarded locals, travelled to the next express stop, and caught an express to whisk them to their destinations. Engineers of the Independent line tried to force passengers to stay on the local; for example, between 125th St and 59th St, there are no express stops. Yet from 59th St to West 4th St (on the 8th Avenue line), there are only 2 more local stops than express (50th St and 23rd St). As a result, most passengers travelling downtown from Harlem don't have a need to change trains.
The Independent was built with gentler curves and flying junctions, permiting trains to travel faster. In two places, on the Queens Blvd line between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave, and again on the South Brooklyn Line between 7th Ave and Church Ave, the express tracks diverge from the local tracks, taking a more direct approach to the next express stop.
The R1/9s were built with end roll signs to identify the train and its destination, instead of the use of marker lights.
The incandescent light bulbs used in the Independent were "left-hand" threaded. Vandals who didn't know this were surprised when they found that they would not screw into ordinary light fixtures.
Can anyone think of any other things?
--Mark
What was new and remarkable was indeed that it was a SYSTEM. That is it was coherently designed of a piece with many provisions for enhancement and expansion. The stations were of unirom and gargantuan size so that full length trains could be operated on all routes, and rarely would a platform be jammed. All in all a noble vision and sadly only partially realised.
Good comments, all. Thank you.
--Mark
The IND was largely built to compete with existing lines, rather than extend service to new areas.
It was publicly planned, owned and operated, insulating it from market considerations, for better and worse.
It was almost entirely underground.
Its original line had no formal "first train." All the trains were set in motion and all stations opened simultaneously.
But I would have to take away the "end signs." R1s heavily borrowed design features from the BMT Triplexes (1925-28), including the end signs (separate route number/letter and destination). And they did not do away with marker lights.
However, add the little little lit "EXP" and "LOCAL" signs on the front"
[The IND was largely built to compete with existing lines, rather than extend service to new areas.]
But note that the IND would have extended service to new areas had the Second System ever been built. What we have today is only a "partial" IND.
Even many of the "Second System" lines (which, while provided for, were still "pie in the sky") competed with existing lines.
Interesting how after the City took over the BMT and IRT it somehow lost its appetite for the subway building.
More like it lost the $$$ when it realized it took control of a BMT and IRT sorely in need of upgrading and maintenance. Unification in 1940 was the final torpedo for the construction of the Second System line.
More like it lost the $$$ when it realized it took control of a BMT and IRT sorely in need of upgrading and maintenance.
Nonsense. The City bought the subway systems with its eyes open. In fact, thanks to the Depression the City got a tremendous bargain with the BMT, acquiring its streetcar system for what it thought it would have to pay for the subway/elevated system alone.
Plus the City saved a bundle on the IND extensions it never would build that duplicated even more of the existing systems.
Unification in 1940 was the final torpedo for the construction of the Second System line.
So why did they float a $500 million bond issue for the 2nd Avenue Subway a decade after Unification, only to fritter it away? Why did they abandon the structurally superior (to the 3rd Avenue) 2nd Avenue el which could have provided continued east side service as one of the first acts of Unification?
They may have bought into the BMT and IRT with their eyes open, but their brains shut tight. If the City didn't have to worry about maintenance and equipment upgrades for those 2 division there would have been a lot more money for new subway construction. As for the $200 million bond issue in the 1950's, all I can say is that the city realized it had to spend money on the existing system before even considering building new lines.
I was always under the impression that the Second Ave el was in much poorer condition in 1942 (the year it closed) than the Third Ave el. If you're right and t's the opposite, than the only reason that I can think of is that the city pulled a major boner.
...thanks to the Depression the City got a tremendous bargain with the BMT, acquiring its streetcar system for what it thought it would have to pay for the subway/elevated system alone.
In 1938, the BMT played hardball and actually prolonged the process towards unification. They insisted that the deal with the IRT be made first and then reach a settlement with the BMT.
Why did they abandon the structurally superior (to the 3rd Avenue) 2nd Avenue el which could have provided continued east side service as one of the first acts of Unification?
Because the Els were losing money. There were plans afoot to replace the 3rd Ave El with a second avenue subway. Tearing down the El in advance of the construction would have saved big bucks. The city didn't want to run the elevated lines at a deficit, which they estimated would be substantial. They spent a fortune building the 6th Ave trunk line, because the city expected to have the 6th Ave El closed and demolished before construction started on the subway below. It didn't happen that way. The El ran for 2 more years as construction progressed below it until it was terminated in December of 1938. It cost $$$ to shore up the El while construction continued below ground. So as part of the unification deal with the IRT, the 2nd and 9th Ave Els ran their last trains on May 31st, 1940. The IRT turned their assets over to NYC the next day. On June 11th, the Fulton St El made its last run and the next day the BMT turned its assets over to the city.
One could argue that the MTA's "plan for action" in 1968 could also be known as "The IND Second System Revisited". In two phases, one that would have run from about 1970 to 1980, then the next phase from 1980 - 1990, the plan proposed a multitude of new lines, some of which date back to the IND Second System plan of September 1929, and some which were modifications.
--Mark
Of course the BMT obstructed Unification. The City wanted Unification. The BMT wanted to continue running their system. The BMT was still a going company at the time of takeover and was in a position to bargain. The IRT was bankrupt and looked upon Unification as a way to salvage a little something for its owners.
As to the 2nd Avenue el being torn down in anticipation of the 2nd Avenue subway:
At Unification the City knew the 2nd Avenue was years in the future. It had no need to shut the line down so precipitously. Knowledgeable people have accused the City of intentionally shutting the 2nd first because the City knew the inferior 3rd would have to come down sooner or later because of its condition--a backward way of forcing complete elevated removal on the East Side.
The City also managed to build the four track Fulton Street subway under narrow Fulton Street while that L line was still running.
IIRC, both the 2nd and 3rd Ave. els were scheduled for demolition in 1942, but the 3rd. was kept because of the high demand for public transit during the war.
The City also managed to build the four track Fulton Street subway under narrow Fulton Street while that L line was still running.
This is true. Also, the IND Fulton St line was finished before the 6th Ave line was started. Perhaps, looking back at the construction, the city decided they didn't want to repeat this kind of expense if they didn't have to.
--Mark
Why did they abandon the structurally superior (to the 3rd Avenue) 2nd Avenue el which could have provided continued east side service as one of the first acts of Unification?
Because the Els were losing money. There were plans afoot to replace the 3rd Ave El with a second avenue subway. Tearing down the El in advance of the construction would have saved big bucks. The city didn't want to run the elevated lines at a deficit, which they estimated would be substantial.
In other words, after bashing the private companies for years for an alleged "public be damned" attitude, the first thing the City does is eliminate rapid transit because they didn't want to lose money on it.
Actually, one thing that doesn't get talked about, is that the IND came into being because John Hylan (NYC mayor 1917-1925) wanted to smash the private companies (ESPECIALLY the BRT/BMT) for very personal reasons. He was fired by the BRT as a loco engineer early in his law career for an accident, during which he was (supposedly)reading a law book...
As soon as WWI ended, the country experienced a nasty run of inflation,just like in the 70's. The problem the IRT and BMT faced was that the Dual Contracts basically put a ceiling of 5 cents on the fare (inflation was VERY rare before WWI...)So this Hylan a perfect opportunity to screw the companies, who both had serious problems...(IRT- the els eating up their profits, BRT- the claims from Malbone St..) So, basically, Hylan held the companies by their throats wiht one hand, while the other hand is screaming about the bad service,unbuilt lines, etc etc...giving him the chance to start up plans for a city system. But the joke was on him, as Albany made him run the city system at cost meaning eventually the IND would have to have charged a 6,7 even a 10 cent fare......
[Actually, one thing that doesn't get talked about, is that the IND came into being because John Hylan (NYC mayor 1917-1925) wanted to smash the private companies (ESPECIALLY the BRT/BMT) for very personal reasons. He was fired by the BRT as a loco engineer early in his law career for an accident, during which he was (supposedly)reading a
law book...]
Ah, the Mayor Hylan story rears its head again ...
It may not be an urban legend. But then again, it might be. It's been repeated in various works on the subway and has become generally accepted as fact. But there are some doubts as to its authenticity.
The stories about Hylan (at least those alluded to by Lou) are true and well documented. And I'm speaking from source documents, not simply later histories.
Assuming you are referring especially to the locomotive engineer story, this was prominently mentioned in the papers at the time of the Malbone Street wreck, since Hylan took off after the BRT, taking the legal but extraordinary step of using his position of Mayor to try to sit as Magistrate in any action against the BRT. The eventual trial, at which both BRT officials and the motorman were acquitted received a change of venue.
Hylan himself acknowledged in one biography that the story of his employment by the BRT and firing were true but implied that the incident was more the fault of the official who was almost hit by his train than any negligence on his own part.
What's arguable is the extent to which he bashed the BRT in particular as opposed to hatred of all transit and the extent to which his firing may or may not have contributed to that animosity. But he did appear, while bashing the "transit interests" in general, to especially go after the BRT.
[The stories about Hylan (at least those alluded to by Lou) are true and well documented. And I'm speaking from source documents, not simply later histories ... What's arguable is the extent to which he bashed the BRT in particular as opposed to hatred of all transit and the extent to which his firing may or may not have contributed to that animosity.]
Human nature being what it is, I would assume that Hylan's hatred of transit did not stem from the BRT incident. Surely he must have realized that the firing turned out all for the best - had he remained with the BRT, he might not have ended up as mayor.
At the time Hylan was fired, he was already going for his law degree, so his days as a locomotive engineer were numbered.
He worked hard to rise to the position of engineer and he apparently felt his firing was unfair. He would hardly have been the first to harbor a grudge against a former employer or lash out when given the opportunity.
He also had a taste and knack for demagoguery which fitted in well with everything else.
Yes, the Hylan story shows how -- just as with our current Mayor -- personal grudges can lead to vendettas once the tables of power are turned against a former employer and/or colleages.
Did you have any particular former employer or colleague in mind vis a vis Giuliani?
I doubt Bill Bratton is a welcome visitor to Gracie Mansion. Ditto for Rudy Crew.
How about Al D'Amato. Seem to recall Rudy and Al were "buddies" until Rudy decided to go as an Independent candidate for NY mayor, snubbing the Republican party. Rudy also muddied those waters by not backing Al's stooge and current NY Governor George Pataki.
Doug aka BMTman
Seems to be Rudy ran as a Republican both times and is still an active Republican. It was John Lindsay who went Independent in 1969, winning in a three-way race in which he had the endorsement only of the Liberal Party. I think it was after the election that Lindsay turned Democrat in the hope of a Presidential bid, but that was not to be.
It's difficult for a Republican to remain as New York Mayor as a "straight" Republican. Giuliani made a dangerous and ultimately wrong calculation that if he backed Cuomo in Pataki's first race he [Giuliani] would make the difference to put Cuomo over the top, reaping benefits for both the City and himself politically.
If this had gone according to Giuliani's plan, I would not have surprised to see have seen him change his registration to Democrat, as Lindsay did.
Good point. I almost forgot that toward the end of his career, Ed Koch also did a "straddling of the fence" being both a Republican and Democrat to "cover all the bases" politically, so to speak.
In fact Koch was one of the few New York Mayors who was able to appeal to ALL members of society -- wealthy, poor, black, white and Latino.
Doug aka BMTman
But I would have to take away the "end signs." R1s heavily borrowed design features from the BMT Triplexes
(1925-28), including the end signs (separate route number/letter and destination). And they did not do away with
marker lights.
However, add the little little lit "EXP" and "LOCAL" signs on the front"
Good observations, all. Thank you!
--Mark
Does anybody out there have any info on the subway station located below 212th street IND line in Queens Village. Some time ago I was talking to a friend, and they mentioned that their is a abandoned station, that never was in use. The last station on the IND E & F line ended at 179th Street along Hillside Avenue, in Jamaica Queens.
Does anybody know why it wasn't used? Their are skylights on the sidewalk along 212st and Jamaica Avenue I was told. Any info would be greatly appreciated. I'm just interested in trains and the subway system. I rode the subway to work during the 60's, as a kid I took many rides during my lunch hour from school.
Thanks again for any help with my question.
CITY GAL!
My question is located under subject: What Made the IND Unique Compared To the BMT In 1932 under CITY GAL.
I had heard this rumor in many versions over the years. The most fascinating version was that there was actually a subway tunnel along 73rd Ave right to Alley Pond Park. I don't remember where I heard it. I suppose that the existance of any un-used Queens subway tunnel/station could be verified through the City Planners Office. If you find out anything concrete (pardon the pun) I'd be most anxious to explore it.
I think the tunnel goes 'bout as far as 188th Street (give or take a few ells) and ends there. There would be gratings along the sidewalks of Hillside Avenue were a tunnel beneath it, and, alas, there are none. 188th would be a good spot for a local station were the "F" line to extend eastward.
Wayne
Hillside Avenue widens out considerably at Springfield Boulevard in Queens Village, with service roads and main roads a la Queens Boulevard. It's said that this was a provision for a new eastern terminal for the IND. Unfortunately, it never got past 179th Street circa 1950.
Another urban legend concerns the wide, parklike traffic circle at 188th Street and 64th Avenue in Fresh Meadows by K-Mart nee Bloomingdales. Several natives of the neighborhood assert this was meant to hold a kiosk to yet another unbuilt IND extension. Credence to this theory is fed by the nearby Expressway which was originally planned to carry the subway in its median(It would have peeled off the Queens Boulevard line by Woodhaven; a turnout in the outbound tunnel wall is clearly visible). Of course, Robert Moses made sure no mass transit would ever infringe on his highways; this is why it's hell to get from JFK to Manhattan.
The Hillside Av. line ends at 184st..I know this because I am from Queens and I always take the F.I also know by the gratings.Also I can see the F rear from 179st,but the ones on the upper level storage tracks.
There was a plan to extend the Queens line beyond 179th St. out to the city limits. I'm not aware of any station shells out there, but one can never tell. There are two station shells for lines which were never built that are well-known: S. 4th St. above the Broadway station on the G, and the one at Utica Ave. on the Fulton St. line, the exterior of which can be plainly seen. Then there's the never-used Roosevelt Ave. terminal station.
One other aspect of the IND which set it apart from the BMT was the fact that every single train carried letter markings right from the start, and the letter code caught on right away. This is a stark contrast to the BMT, where markings were never consistently applied to trains because only a small percentage of rolling stock was equipped to do so.
BTW, welcome aboard!
Yes, both the 1929 "IND Second System" plan and the 1968 "MTA Program for Action" contained new line extensions to Springfield Blvd.
These new tunnel rumours are fascinating!
--Mark
It was the first system to have double doors without a pole between them. Previously all IRT and BMT trains had either single doors (a real pain if it broke) or on the BMT double doors with a pole between them. The IND had four double doors per side with no pole there so each door could be narrower but the space wide and so four sets could fit. Practically every train everywhere has followed this model since, except maybe for Chicago which used folding doors and the Hudson Tubes to Newark which for a number of years through the late 60's used single door trains supplied by the Pennsylvania RR for that line only.
The destination signs actually said where they terminated. BMT signs said things like "ASTORIA" or "FORT HAMILTON". The IND said CONCOURSE-205 ST.", "BKLYN-CHURCH AVENUE", or "WASHINGTON HTS-168 ST".
It inspired a song: "Take the A train", which, when the song was written, was the brand new way to get to Harlem.
It also had no elevated sections, except for the 4th Avenue and Smith-9th St stations over the Gowanus Canal.
The replacement of elevateds was a major goal: the 8th Avenue Subway to replace the 9th Avenue El and the 6th Avenue Subway to replace the 6th Avenue El. The Crosstown line could replace the Myrtle Avenue El. The Fulton St. Subway replace the Fulton St. El. Probably the Concourse line was supposed to replace the Jerome Avenue El, but so may people lived there and it was so hilly that both are popular.
The main new lines were into Forest Hills /Jamaica (areas of new population growth), and into Park Slope to Church Avenue, which would eventually ease traffic on the BMT by diverting the Culver Line into the Smith St. Subway.
Some of its stations were meant to reek of modernity, such as (tada) ROCKEFELLER CENTER, which was brand new at the time of the 6th Avenue Subway opening, and the HOLLAND TUNNEL, also pretty new at the time, though I can't imagine that being a big drawing card for subway-riding pedestrians, not to mention the PORT AUTHORITY BUS TERMINAL, woohoo...
It had the longest stations ever, ready for 10 60' cars, which became a standard for decades, until the 75' cars came along in the mid-70s.
They also had these clever twists, like the downtown E connecting with the uptown D at 7th Avenue (53 St.) and the southbound G connecting with the northbound A at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Of course because the F didn't go to 7th Avenue and the A didn't, you could wind up waiting a heck of a long time to get from Jamaica to Washington Hts, except during rush hour.
I think at this point I have run out of ideas...
One aspect not discussed is the simplicity of the station decorations, i.e. the substitution of a simple tile band for the more elaborate mosaic friezes found in the IRT and BMT. There was a sort of functionality to this:
1) Station tile bands belong to five color families - Red, Yellow, Green, Blue and Purple.
2) The color of the tile changes at each express station, with the local stations following it (going outbound) belonging to the same color family.
3) With one exception (noted below), these groupings follow the same order: (going outbound): Purple, Blue, Green, Yellow, Red.
4) Express stations (except on 8th Avenue) have wider tile bands than local stations.
5) Tablets are simple, with a common design, and black tile with white letters spell out the station name on the wall.
The exception to 3) is on the Fulton IND - Utica/Ralph/Rockaway (red family) is followed by blue family stations Broadway-ENY, Liberty, Van Siclen and Shepherd, THEN comes purple (Euclid) THEN green (Grant).
The Crosstown Line is all green, three variations on the theme.
See the IND Tile Colors table for a complete list.
Wayne
This pattern, which I had never noticed, seems like a variant of 'resistor code' or the similar Bell System color progression in multistrand cables.
Blue, Orange, Green, Brown, Slate etc
The one item not mentioned here was standardized rolling stock. Unlike the BMT which drifted away from its 'Standard', the IND built over 1600 cars to the original plan and then another 400 to a slightly modified version. The later R-16 through R-42 varied more in appearance but kept the same footprint, bringing the total fleet built to one layout to almost 4000. This was perhaps the longest lasting unique aspect of the IND.
An interesting footnote to the IND R1/9 specifications (and all IND/BMT contracts to R-42) was that the length of these cars EXACTLY equals the distance between the pitchers mound and home plate in Major League Baseball. Talk about a subway series .... :)
It is true that the R1/9 series led to a great deal of standardization to the NYC Transit System between 1932 and 1970 - the double leaf doors, the placement of the doorways on the sides of the cars, the local/express lights .. virtually all these ideas were carried through to the R-42 order.
--Mark
What a history lession !!!! Thanks everyone.
Another difference between IND and BMT construction is the fact that some express stops of the IND are built ABOVE the LOCAL stations (ie Nostrand Ave. on the 'A'). I'd assume that was done to prevent 'encrouching' upon existing building foundations and stuctures at certain locations on various lines.
Doug aka BMTman
This isn't entirely unique to the IND: the Lexington Avenue IRT has express and local on separate levels (okay, so in this case the express is below the local, but it's the same idea). And in the original plans for City Hall BMT, the local was to terminate on the upper level and the express was to continue below.
You're welcome. The reason I asked the question is that I'm working on a history of the Independent system (and after 1940, the IND Division) for the site. I have a few more sources to go through before I'll consider it done.
--Mark
I was just browsing through some E-mail and saw a couple of entries that suggested new subway construction. This sounds rather nice and a futuristic way of dealing with aging early 19th century "ELs". But,hasn't anybody heard of the long planned but uncompleted Second Avenue subway ? First concieved in the 1920's,this was the replacement for the Second Avenue "EL". We are on the verge of the new millenium and this project is long from reality. But wait! Let's not forget that taxpayer dollars were spent here. Those dollars were allocated for building of this line with eventually running it. NOT!
Hell if this fragmented illuminated wine cellar never gets completed,at least give us our tax dollars back !! Again, NOT!!
Happy third rails !!
It sure isn't just transportation infrastructure. There has been a series of articles in the Times this week about what a disaster building and renovating schools in NYC has been. Also, a report just came out about why building housing in NYC is so ridiculously expensive. They mention high wages, featherbedding and arcane work rules, corruption, and cumbersome building codes. Here's a link, but you have to have a (free) nytimes.com password, and it will only work today (wednesday):
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/regional/ny-building-talks.html
This is one thing I actually agree with Rudy on. If only the state and the city would actually really attact these problems...
This is for a earlier post about the towers in the NYC Subway System. As i was coming in to work on Tuesday night July 27, There is a sign at the 47th-50th St Rockefeller Plaza IND 6th Ave station tower that says, ''This tower is on automatic, What you punch is what you get''.
The tower still has the model board and the mike's to talk to command center and for the PA system in the tower.
I wonder if they will take everything out or leave it alone in case if will be manned/womaned later on.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Unless there is a plan for a master tower to cover 6th Av from perhaps 34th Street to 57th (including 5th Av tower) this tower will stay. The Ta has done this before. A problem occurs when a train hitsm a homeball at this location. There is no one in the tower to issue a call-on. There's no guarentee that there are signal maintainers in the area either.
Took the fast way to Riverdale yesterday, from 42/6 (B) to 59/CPW (A)to 207st.
I got a train of R44, the oddball rebuilt by MK. A close examination (well, not so close, but I didn't need to be) of the 'waistline' of car 5228, the broad band of steel that was formerly painted blue, reveals that a piece of stainless steel is indeed welded over what I will assume is C-Steel, as it was curling up nicely along the edges. So my question becomes, who's making sure that steel back there isn't rusting itself to death?
And we hit 42mph between 59 and 125, according to the speedo, until the operator got paranoid and covered it with his work glove.
-Hank
Nobody,is checking. The 44'S are going to rust apart before the red birds. You say top speed was 42mph? I'm surprised, no dead motors!
Let me guess where that train hit 42: 81st St., right? That's about where the R-10s would reach top speed. Those motors must have been hotwired.
Took son on long-planned trip on PATH and Newark subway this past Monday, as temperatures finally reached sub-Hades levels. I knew the 1940s vintage cars' days were numbered and running only on weekdays, so this was one of my last chances.
We enjoyed front-window view from PATH from Herald Square all the way to Newark. The front window is almost as low as that on a Slant-40, so it's perfect for a three and a half-year-old. Rob especially got a kick out of all the "stuff" in the Christopher Street tunnel (apparently the large numbers of pipes and ducts running along the walls), the very high-pitched door chime and the very fast ride from Journal Square to Harrison. One does get a good view of varied NJT and Amtrak equipment laid up between rush hours.
The classic subway cars are still running, Orange Street warning bell and accelerating whine still in place. My son still thinks it's a bus because of the driver in front. Many construction vehicles are parked along the exposed right of way, obviously ready for the upcoming overhaul. The driver told us there have been quite a few railfans in recent months getting their final fix. The new cars, as pictured in promotional brochures, don't seem to have the same primitive charm as what we rode, but that's progress.
Two more things we learned: (1) Don't eat in the McDonald's in Newark Penn Station; there are many aggressive teenage beggars (wearing chains, yet!) who all but sit next to you in the booth, but no attempt on the part of management to eject them; (2) the mens' room at that station isn't much dirtier than the one at Borders' at the World Trade Center.
I told people at work that I took my son to Newark. A few acted as if that was child abuse. Hey, at least I don't take him on trains in the rush hour.
Hope to get to Shore Line museum this coming Monday if it stays below 90.
Good for you for taking your kid on the old #7. My friends and I didn't need bikes when we were kids; we rode the City Subway (we lived on Second Street near Orange). Thanks for an interesting account.
What systems are left turned on when a train is laid up overnight in the yard? For example, are taillights on? Do the compressors ever kick on to keep the brake pressure up? (Is there any slow pressure loss?)
Bill
When trains are layed up, there iare certain procedures that must be followed.
Sufficient handbrakes must be applied (criteria for 'sufficient' varies)
One air compressor must be left on (usually all are)
One converter must be left on (usually all are)
HVAC is to be shut down (sometimes is)
Interior lights shut off (usually)
All end doors locked (most times)
Tail lights are a safety feature and should always be on. If not, A red flag should be displayed on the head-out end. I am sure I'm forgetting something.
Of course someone has already addressed what happens in New York. New York and all other rapid transit systems in the US use air brakes, so hand brakes must be applied to keep cars from rolling when they are parked in the yard out-of-service.
In Chicago, with all the equipment built as "all-electric" there is no need for a handbrake. As in all-electric PCC operation, the lack of power in the controller brings the dynamic brakes into play. When the controller is placed in off position, and the ciniston "key" is removed, the brakes on all cars are "on". No need for additonal handbrakes on these cars.
Jim K.
Chicago
[ In Chicago, with all the equipment built as "all-electric" there is no need for a handbrake. As in all-electric PCC operation, the lack of
power in the controller brings the dynamic brakes into play. ]
I should know this, but I assume there needs to be some kind of friction brake system, as dynamic brakes cannot work at very low speeds. Certainly, they cannot alone keep a train from rolling down a hill.
If they don't manually apply any kind of brake, then there must be something that works without any power. Some kind of friction or mechanical brake that is spring-applied, and released electrically during operation?
First of all, this is a great site. I've been riding the 6 train from Pelham Bay park to Wall street every workday for over 20 years. Since I spend most of my time looking out the front window (when possible), I've been able to figure out basics on how the system works.
When I found this site, I said WOW. Although I was wrong on some stuff, a lot of the systems worked like I suspected.
There are 2 things I have not discovered yet. Any help will be appreciated.
1. On the IRT, the signals have been entirely replaced. New signals have been installed, with a WHITE lens labed WD30, WD20, and WD15. I've noticed these signals approching interlocks. I've seen the signals asserted on the NorthBound 6 Express north of the 177th Street/Parkchester.
2. What makes the clicking sound on the tracks before a train shows up? At the NB end of the 125th Street station on the 6, they are very pronounced, I notice that the rats understand it because they scurry about when it happens. Can someone explain how it works?
Thanks in advance,
bob_bucci@hotmail.com
[What makes the clicking sound on the tracks before a train shows up? At the NB end of the 125th Street station on the 6, they are very pronounced, I notice that the rats understand it because they scurry about when it happens. Can someone explain how it works?]
That's probably the vibration of the wheels hitting joints traveling ahead through the rails.
WD- Stands for Wheel Detector and 15 would mean you can't go faster then 15 MPH when you cross the switch or the Emergency Brakes are applied.
How about the single white light flashing?? That mean it tell the motorman that the train is about to switch track. Right Pelham Bay Dave?
The Flashing White Light means your going too fast. When the white ligth goes Steady then your ok and going the allowable speed.
Thank You Pelham Bay Dave (JR) and i will keep in my mind when the train operator exam in Jan.
I will also try to take that Exam. I'm waiting to see how I did on the Conductors test so I know if I should Hide or not.
Thats me JR not SR sorry about that.
Ok so this doesn't happen again the name will say Pel Bay Dave but will sign the bottom of the post if its me JR or Sr
Hey Dave Jr, Buy the chief and there is a answer exam key on page 2. I already found out that i have 68 out of 80 questions that 85% and i pass it. if you need a answer exam key? I will e-mail you.
Peace Out
Meaney
Just to keep in mind: When I took the Conductor's test in Nov 93, I scored a 98, was ranked 800 on the list and didn't get called until Nov 97.
Hey Alex L., I don't know what ranked i have and look like i will be call maybe 4 or 5 years from now.
Peace Out
Meaney
PS: Which lines you work for?
You mean the single shot GT light? I've never seen it flash, it's always steady, or not on at all (the latter when you can proceed).
He ment the White light on the Wheel Detector which is not a Grade Time light. The Wheel Detector light is normally off when no trains are being crossed over. Now the white light becomes steady when it is in use. If your going too fast it will blink. If you do not slow down you will go into Emergency. If you do slow down it will stop blinking and cross over with no problems.
Except they are now being modified to be steady white at ALL times when in use. This means you had really better be going the limit before you get to the WD.
How do wheel detectors work? Do they use Doppler radar?
On Thursday, July 29, 1999, voters of Miami-Dade County, Florida, will be asked to participate in a special election to add one cent to the current 6.5% sales tax. This additional penny will qualify the county for transit improvements, including new badly needed rail lines.
With this election, it appears the skeleton of Robert Moses has been reincarnated. His name is Norman Braman, owner of several car dealerships in the area. Read about his reasons to "donate" $100,000 to a fund fighting the tax by pointing your browser to
http://www.herald.com/content/today/news/dade/digdocs/033543.htm.
Another related story about the transit tax can be found here, at http://www.herald.com/content/archive/news/pennytax99/docs/045271.htm.
If you disagree with Mr. Braman, let him know by posting your message on his web site here.
It's interesting that Norman Braman is donating huge amounts of money as part of a "Citizens Against Higher Taxes" when the tax in question happens to call for increased mass transit, and therefore threaten sales at his car dealeaships. The same Norman Braman is the former owner of the Philadelphia Eagles who repeatedly campaigned loudly for a PUBLICLY-funded new stadium for the team, and then when it didn't materialize, cut back on his spending on the team, resulting in the team's decline. Guess he's "against higher taxes" only when it in HIS interest. Philadelphia is indeed fortunate to be rid of this jerk.
However, I do have to add that, as the article points out, a lot of the money SUPPORTING additional construction of mass transit in Miami also comes from those with their own agendas (e.g. construction companies, labor unions, businesses and universities located near proposed lines). It's actually an insightful look at how public-works decisions are made on the basis of special interests, and not the greater good. Say what you want about Robert Moses (and I am no fan of his), but at least he had a vision of what the future should be like, and did his best to make it come about. He made many mistakes, and was cold-hearted, stubborn and probably racist, but I don't think his projects were designed to enrich himself or serves his own private interests. I suspect he genuinely believed he was acting in the interest of the greater public good.
Norman Braman is catering his opinion to the non-vehicularly challenged affluent public that are into cars and traffic and are willing to spend big $$$ on BMWs, Rolls Royces, Cadillacs, and Hondas. I agree the latter is not _such_ a big ticket item in relative terms, but anyway.
He also had the gall to request the City of Miami--not to be confused with Miami-Dade County, who runs the Transit Agency--to provide him with a low-interest loan to rebuild his BMW/Rolls/Cadillac dealership near downtown Miami not too long ago. Yet he found the $$$ somewhere to build a state-of-the-art Honda dealership with other funds. The $100K is probably tantamount to a tax writeoff.
The public in Miami-Dade County is not properly educated in what mass transit can do. Having lived in NYC and Atlanta, I am exposed to the benefits of mass transit, but the bulk of the public down here is in LUST with cars and traffic. Don't get me wrong, I love cars and I love to drive, but I vehemently DESPISE traffic. Hopefully, anyone down here with $.02 worth of brains will see the benefits of having a bona fide mass transit system.
All,
Mark, Wayne, and I went redbird hunting last wednesday to spot some of them in their natural habitats before they start to disappear next year, and the results are here. Enjoy!
--Dave
Great Pictures ! In 2 weeks after my dad comes back from Vacation I'll try to add to your collection. Taking picture along the White Plains Road Line and Dyre Ave Line.
Sigh!
David's photos are great!
I also have a lot of Redbird pictures, but all are slides. There are no slide film scanner in the University of Maryland so that I can scan on the Web.
Chaohwa
Dave, I have a webpage of Redbirds and check out the Redbird Pictures, also check my own webpage NYCT-MTA-SUBWAY's Page
Peace Out
Meaney
PS The pictures is great and im planning to take more Rebirds next month.
Perhaps if Congress passed a bill declaring "redbirds" as an endangered species, it might save them from the inevitable extinction the new R142's will bring. Perhaps the 238th St. yard can be declared as a redbird "nesting" ground and fenced off.
Oh please! I for one, can't wait to get the Redbirds off the property. Maybe I'd like them better if they didn't do such a poor job of overhauling them.
You know, if there had been an Internet and Dave's web site back in 1962, I'll bet we'd be hearing the same pro/con comments about the Low-Vs
I bet if the city did proper maintenance on the Low-V's during their service life they'd still be running. Ditto for the Triplexs and the R1-9's
Don't forget the BMT standards. Of course, 394 of them were rebuilt in 1959-60.
The Triplexes are another story. They probably received less maintenance than any other car class and still ran like tops. That's how well they were designed and built. The only reason they were retired so soon was the TA's desire to have a standardized fleet on the B division. Otherwise, there's no question in my mind they would have lasted through the 1970s, possibly even into the 80s. Deferred maintenance? The Triplexes scoffed at it.
The R-1/9s fell victim to the new-cars-are-on-the-way attitude. Once the R-40 and R-42 contracts were signed and sealed, the old timers became neglected.
A fine nest of Redbirds! I haven't gotten my own pictures developed yet, but if there's anything that I have that doesn't duplicate anything else, I will forward it.
Wayne
"Redbird Hunting" ... I was going to call the video "Redbird Country", but you got me thinking ... maybe call it "The Hunt for Redbird October" .... (BOO HISS!!)
Actually, after our trip I got a second wind and went to the Flushing Line to get some express runbys at rush hour. 90th St makes a great spot for grabbing runbys. In fact, I went back again today and got some more at 111th St, 46/Bliss and 33rd/Rawson. Boy was it hot!
Once the Snappy's all hooked up, we'll need a data warehouse to store the stills!
--Mark
Rim shot!
Dave picked a good day for Redbird hunting - 34 years to the day from my first subway ride.
There has been talk lately about diffrent subway cars in museums. Now I dont want to start World War III, but I would like to share my own opinion. My personal belief is that the only cars that should be in a trolley museum are those that had trolley poles while in revenue service. Take for example Brooklyn Elevated cars, they originally were built with trolley poles and steps and traps. As for the R type cars, it is my own personal belief that they should be in the transit museum. I am not putting down subways at all! I thouroughly enjoyed running the Hi-V at Shoreline as well as the Low-V. But when rapid transit cars come up for acquisition and brought to a museum, it should not cause a car that is already under cover to be brought out to the elements! Especially when it is a streetcar!!!!!
Now that I said my piece let the beatings commence, lol
I sympathize with you. In an ideal world, there would be sufficient space under cover for all of them. What I think most "trolley" museums feel, however, is that they are "electrified rail transit" museums, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. After all, the MTA is in the business of running a subway (among other things), and is not primarily in the museum business. How many places are there where a subway car can be displayed in its natural habitat without interfering with the real business of the subway? Very, very few - so let's thank the museums for doing what they can. As a trolley fan first and foremost I hate to see a streetcar put outside either, but there are times that when, in the interest of preserving history, tough choices have to be made.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: What I think many of the younger hands may not realize is how the evolution of the trolley museums came about.World War II was the defining event of this century and provided a watershed in the abandonment of light rail lines;ie,trolley,stretcar, interurban etc.During the war it was not possible to build replacement equiptment so most of the existing cars had to carry on. When the war ended the era of wholesale abandonements and bustitution began. Those who saw the historical significance of electric railway vehicles started seting up so called "greenfield" trolley museums usually in areas where the real estate was very cheap. Some cars were freely donated by the company others came at reduced rates and still others had to be brought at market auction, almost always the was the necessary costs to transport the vehicle to the museum site. Some have critized the early museums for acquiring more cars than they could possibly run or maintain yet those early museum pioneers were faced with Hobson's choice. Either bring it to the museum back yard or send it to the scrapper. In most cases this was accomplished with donated money,spare time and plenty of backbreaking labor.
The situation with the rapid transit cars was not as immediate as they were fairly safe from abandonement or bustitution. Also there were only four systems at the time,New York,Philadelphia,Boston and Chicago. There was of course some concern about the wooden el cars and a good number of these did go to museums, but the situation with the steel cars was nowhere as critical.
During the 50's and 60's many museum struggled just to get by the early acquisition phase was over. Some good examples did manage to get saved by both Branford and Seashore though. Beginning in the 70's I would say there was a greater public awareness of preserving examples of our heritage and public rail lines(light,heavy and regional) started to make a comeback so the time was good to acquire rapid transit cars even though the basic museum layout in many cases was set up for ligth rail cars. Nevertheless it was once again the choice that if you don't want it we can scrap it.
The museum pioneeers and current volunteers deserve a vote of thanks from railfans and non-railfans alike for preserving a portion of our history.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Shore Line's situation is unique. It was founded on an operating trolley line, and for a year after revenue service ended, the Connecticut Company kept it tied in to the rest of its system. As a result, the first cars to be acquired arrived under their own power.
AND that car, #865, still operates there !
There is one car at the museum which was built specifically for the Branford line. Is that the one? I remember being at Shore Line once when they were running that car and the museum member remarked that this car "has never left this line."
Drifting off the subway topic here...
One of Shore Line's regular service cars, Connecticut Company
775 (aka 193) was built in 1904 for service on the line which
the museum now operates. It is a bit of an embellishment to
say that it never left the line. The car was assigned to
other lines, but always on the New Haven division. It was
one of the initial group of cars which came to the museum under
its own power in 1947-1948 while we were still connected to the
New Haven street railway system. ConnCo 865 is almost identical
to 775 and was also a New Haven car, but it wasn't part of that
13 car order placed specifically for the Branford Electric Ry route.
I stand corrected. That's another case of taking something with a grain of salt. Had he said this car has never left the New Haven division, it would have been more accurate. I recall the first time I visited Shore Line in 1980. There was a kid leading a group of visitors on a guided tour of the barns, and he proceeded to mistakenly refer to North Shore 709 as a PCC. When we got to the real McCoy, 1001, he called it something else. Granted, this was a case where the guide was flat-out wrong, not just making a blanket statement.
New York City Subway Cars mentions that R-16 6387 spent its entire career on the Jamaica line. Our own Mr. Slant R-40, Wayne, has documented seeing it on the RR at one time.
Well, let me say this: Subway cars are just as important to preserve as trolley cars. Yes, putting a pole on top of a car equipped with 3rd rail pickup shoes is decidedly inauthentic. However, the pole is a good alternative in that at least the car will be operational to give folks an idea of what that piece of equipment was like in service. Museums like Branford and Seashore started collecting their transit equipment back in the 50s, and prevented pieces of history from being lost. Some that come to mind are the two Hi-Vs, and Money Car G, not to mention the numerous other pieces collected along their glorious years.
In my opinion, cars like these belonged in NY. But you know what? No one in NY ever thought to save these cars! They didn't start thinking about that until the 70s, when the NY Transit Exhibit (later Museum) was opened.
You have a valid point: the BUs are actually more authentic with the trolley pole. Some however, lost their poles along the way, as was the steps that took you into the car from the surface. In some ways the Brooklyn El Cars were trolleys themselves when you consider that at certain locations, they came off the el and trundled along side street traffic in the same manner as streetcars. Streetcars and subway cars are interwoven, in that the technologies are similar. What about the deadman's feature found on the Birney Cars? The same feature can be found on various Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs. What the major difference between them? Size.... Other than that, streetcars and rapid transit cars have a history that is interwoven. Frank J. Sprague devised innovations for both streetcars and rapid transit cars. This is proof that rapid transit cars and the little trolleys that could have similar origins.
-Stef
Stef : Maybe I didnt really communicate the point very well, I meant more along the lines of preserving and or stabilizing what is already present before getting more and adding to the problem of unrestored and deteriorating cars. I apoligize if anyone is offended, and I do have some knowledge of how trolley museums operate, but wont go into that in here
The point you make is one of the thorniest facing our museums. Because we depend on our members to support our restoration work, the most popular items get worked on. This is less of a problem for a small focused operation like Baltimore, and more so for a large diverse museum like Seashore or Shoreline. The challenge for the larger operations is to find sources of funding outside our own membership. Then some of the real gems might see some effort. Meanwhile we have to say thank-you to those interested in PCC cars or Subway cars who help keep our restoration and preservation operations going.
Gerry
Good Point!!
No offense taken.
You are right about one thing: perhaps it's better to restore what's already there before getting anything else. Acquiring more equipment could lead to bigger headaches especially if you're understaffed in the restoration shop.
-Stef
I've been to several "trolley" museums which have buses, tracklesses and rapid transit cars, in addition to line trucks, supervisor cars, etc. I think trolley and transit can be considered interchangable in this case.
I don't always like the results, though. The R-4's at Seashore, the Bullet and Liberty Liner at Rockhill, and (something I just saw last week) the TTC Gloucester pair at Halton just don't look right with trolley poles. As the guide at Halton said, when I posed the question, without poles they're just going to sit there (and there is a pair of TTC H-1's doing exactly that in the parking lot). The museums can't possibly shell out the expense and accept the liability for third rail. Besides, as the guide at Halton also told me, there is CTA 48 at that museum also. It had both third rail shoes and the unique "bows" for Skokie service.
The thing with the poles is one of those unfortunate but
necessary touches of un-authenticity that we suffer with
to be able to demonstrate the cars. That's one of the reasons
why the subway cars only get one pole. Of course, some of
Branford's RT collection actually did run with poles at one
point....Chicago 4280, the BU elevated cars (although we don't
have any preserved in the street-running configuration with
drop steps, some of those cars were outfitted with poles again
in their work motor career), and of course even some of the
AB standards were fitted with poles during testing (although
not 2775 in Branford's collection).
I don't think any railway museum would construct third rail,
except a non-operating museum like the NYTM. Even where it
is legal (it isn't in CT), the chance of accident is too great.
Branford does have one piece of third rail, but it is an exhibit
and doesn't have any juice :)
When you consider some of the things operating companies have done to their own equipment and structures, the trolley poles (which are removable) are small change.
I never liked the way the TA rehabilitated several hundred of the BMT Standards c.1960, tearing out many of the seats and painting them inside with that weird squiggle paint.
Myrtle Avenue (and other) L stations were rebuilt as ugly boxes before abandonment, all the decoration and charm removed. It's only recently that rehabilitation efforts are aimed at keeping any kind of architectural integrity.
Don't forget the headlights added to most earlier subway equipment, the bow collectors added to the CTA Skokie Cars and the end pantographs added to the Slant R40s, completely changing the impression of the car's appearance. But these were all, by definition, prototypical.
[ Don't forget the headlights added to most earlier subway equipment,
the bow collectors added to the CTA Skokie Cars and the end
pantographs added to the Slant R40s, completely changing the
impression of the car's appearance. But these were all, by definition,
prototypical ]
The R40 fronts are destroyed both by the pantograph gates, and the "railings".
Another modern TA GOH massacre was the removal of the signage from the 32/38 and replacing it with that unreadable LCD. Taking something that ain't broke, and breaking it.
It's a flip-dot display, but that fact doesn't make it any more readable. I like the R-32 and I wish they still had something nice on the front (like an LED display like on the R-110A) and getting back the BLUE DOORS. Actually, the blue doors and the door chimes are the only things that I remember about the subway when I was little, so that's why I like the R-32 and the R-46.
I miss the blue doors on the R-32s as well. IIRC, the A/C system installed on the R-32s and R-38s took up much of the available space behind the bulkheads where the roll signs were, so an alternate means of displaying route markings had to be employed.
This raises an interesting question: if the Redbirds also received air conditioning (except for the WF R-33s), was their A/C radically different? It must have been, if they were able to keep their front end route and destination roller curtains.
This past Saturday I saw an R-38 with a front bulkhead C written in magic marker on paper and taped over the electronic sign. Unfortunately I didn't get the car number... but at least someone had the good sense to post something that could be read from more than six feet away!
I LIKE IT! Maybe Steve can get some of his glass cleaner folks to take up some "arts and crafts". The R38s are marginally better than the R32s (the letter is actually larger and has "brighter" dots).
Wayne
They didn't really need the space over the storm door, where the
end sign and markers were, for HVAC equipment. However, the
placement of the air handlers up there obstructed access to the
end sign box. In reality, they put the dimdot signs up there
because someone thought it was new-fangled and neat. The TA
was going through its "let's futz with the signs" mode and at
the same time was prototyping the eye-glare special side signs
that eventually wound up on the R44 and 46 rebuilds.
The HVAC retrofit on the IRT redbird fleet was done earlier.
They didn't re-do the entire ceiling area. They just kluged
in two air handlers and ducted back into where the fans were.
I seem to remember that on the one set of R38s that had A/C, I could never figure out how they would access the front signs, either.
What did the ceiling look like on the R-38s with A/C? or on the R-40s and R-42s for that matter? Speaking of that, how do you tell apart a R-40M and a R-42 other that by number? R-26/28?
The air conditioned R 38's ceilings (cars 4140-4149) looked pretty much like the rebuilt ones do today. I rember those cars as being darker and cold. The difference between the R40m and R42 is a)The number two storm door glass is the long type, the same as the Slant 40. The car body is the same as the Slant 40.(except for the R 42 type bonnet at the number one end. The sloppy front 40 was always one of my favorites, no matter what any one says! As for the R 26 &R 28,just as the R 27&R 30 except for the numbers, I can't tell them apart.
There's someone after my own heart! Here's another way you can tell R40M from R42 at a glance: look at the sides. The corrugations on the R42s are wider than the R40M, which is the same as an R40. Just to show you how alike the Slant R40 and R40M are: one of the repair jobs going on at CI Shoppe involves transplanting the slanted beak of a regular R40 onto the damaged end of an R40M.
The storm doors on the "A" end of R40M are slightly smaller and higher than those on R42.
R40M (and Slant R40) do NOT have grab handles between the "B" ends (dangerous crossing!) - R42s DO.
Wayne
The roofs of the R40M and R42 are also different. I think that the 40M roofs have small indented vents in them, visible from the platform, while the 42's are smoother.
Ahh, the things you notice while sitting in traffic on the Willie B. (well, not right now, but in the past).
Another difference is in the seats of both cars. The R40's have those uncomfortable flat bench seats I like to refer to as commuter torture devices. It almost makes standing up more desireable. The R42's corrected that with a contoured seat which is much more comfortable. Another minor difference is the side route sighns. The R40's have almost eliptical dividers between, where as the R42's have almost invisable black dividers.
The ceiling `drop' at the ends of the cars for the AC units on the 10 R-38 cars wasn't as much as on the later R-40s and R-42s. The center vent secitons were similar.
As has been posted in the past, look for the outer stripe on the sides of the cars -- The R-40M has the thin deeper groove like it's sister R-40 cars, while the R-42's stripe is wider and shallower.
One other way to tell the difference between the R42 and the Modified R40 is that the R40M has a sculpted indent about 1/3 up along the side of the car. There are other differences, some already noted in this website.
IMHO, the R40M does have the edge in external looks over the R42, however, those flat bench seats in the slants and the modifieds are a horror show and a delight to chiropractors!
There's no difference between the R40's and R42's. Just the numbers.
You say this even after many people have posted otherwise? And you said R-40, not R-40M, are you telling me that a Slant R-40 looks just like an R-42?
That goes for the R-11s, too. I've examined 8013 at the museum, and can't figure out how one would access the bulkhead roller curtains.
Oh, and Charles, I reset my bulkhead curtains to A/Wash Hts. 207th St. You may be interested to know that the Wash. Hts 207th St. sign looks brand new. No discoloration at all. I get the impression that the car which had this particular curtain never ran on the A line.
Yes, putting a pole on top of a car equipped with 3rd rail pickup shoes is decidedly inauthentic.
But it makes the museums safer. I mean, you don't have to worry about anyone accidentally touching the third rail. That isn't very easy to do with the trolley wire up in the air.
--Mark
Agreed! In places like the Trolley Museum in East Haven, wire is the way to go for safety reasons. Anyway, the 3rd Rail is not permitted in the State of CT. I must state that I'd prefer to see the cars operate, 3rd Rail shoes or not.
-Stef
I know most Rapid Transit Cars, particularly those at Shore Line, have only one pole on the roof. Would it have been much easier to have trolley poles on both ends of a Rapid Transit Car to eliminate back poling??? Jeff, what do you say to that one?
-Stef
[ I know most Rapid Transit Cars, particularly those at Shore Line, have
only one pole on the roof. Would it have been much easier to have
trolley poles on both ends of a Rapid Transit Car to eliminate back
poling??? ]
Sure, it would be operationally easier, but there are two reasons for not doing so:
1) With a pole-less end, you can take a photograph of the car, or at least look at the car, without the eyesore of a out-of-place trolley pole.
2) Poles don't grow on trees. Even if they did, they'd still need volunteer time to install.
It seems like a good idea to have one end pole-less, for photo purposes.
However, it's not unprototypical for any of the BRT elevated cars (and some of the Manhattan el ones) and some of the original BRT/BMT Standards to have trolley poles.
In fact, most, if not all, of the BRT BU cars also originally had steps for street-level loading as well as trap doors for high level loading. Do any elevated cars at any museum have these?
[ However, it's not unprototypical for any of the BRT elevated cars (and some of the Manhattan el ones) and some of the original BRT/BMT
Standards to have trolley poles.
In fact, most, if not all, of the BRT BU cars also originally had
steps for street-level loading as well as trap doors for high level
loading. Do any elevated cars at any museum have these? ]
I can't speak for other museums, but I'm pretty sure all of the Branford cars are currently preserved without the traps and steps. 1227, the el car currently running several times a year, has two poles. (They're a little too short, but that's another story).
It would be nice to rebuild the traps and steps, especially since it would make the climb onto the car a lot easier (and it wouldn't need to load passengers at the high-level platform). To do so, though, would require both research into the actual design of the traps, as well as what other changes would need to be reversed to keep it preserved in a prototypical manner.
I can't speak for other museums, but I'm pretty sure all of the Branford cars are currently preserved
without the traps and steps
Many of the current elevated or open-cut routes in Brooklyn were
surface-running street railways at the turn of the century. Most
of the BUs were delivered with two trolley poles and "trap steps"
a la CNS&M 709. Oddly, they never had trolley catchers or tetrievers.
Starting in the mid 1910s, the BRT began taking the tracks off
grade. I believe this work was completed by about 1921.
In 1922 or 23, based on the dates I've seen on some engineering
drawings (perhaps a BRT history buff could provide additional info)
the BUs received a major overhaul. The platforms were rebuilt,
eliminating the trap steps. The anti-climber was modified and
the platforms strengthened. The original single line switch
was replaced by a unit containing two switches (LS1/LS2), although
it was used in a decidely ass-backwards manner to work with the
existing turret control. In the case of 1227, the window sash
were modified. Originally they could drop all the way down inside
the side wall.
Other than Shore Line, there are no other intact BU cars preserved,
unless you count the 3 BQs down at the Transit Museum. There is
supposedly a BU car body out in a park somewhere in PA.
To rebuild to the pre 1920-s configuration would involve a lot
of un-modification. There's also the minor issue of trucks.
There's some contention as to whether 1227 had Peckham 40 motor
trucks its entire life or started out with Brills. One of the 1300s
would actually be easier to put back IF we had a spare P40 motor
truck with WH50L motors....999 is starting to look good.
999 is almost exactly like it was when it had poles, if any readers of this list have Ed Watsons' book "Brooklyn Elevated" on page 78. If I remeber right those steps are still in place,so much for the training equipment though.Maybe a little work to remove the end marker lights. 999 even had a retriever!!!
I happend to notice a book about rail travel in America during WWII.
There were a couple of pix of ex NY 2nd Ave el cars in service out in California. On one line, the cars were reequipped with pantographs to run as MUs. On another, they ran as steam trailers. Amazing pictures! There was a post earlier this year about this subject. However, I can not remember if any of this equipment found its way to a museum.
Some former NYW&B equipment was also in service out there also, as steam trailers, I believe.
IIRC, two pieces are at the Orange Empire RR museum in California. They are the only ones preserved.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They are Not at Orange Empire. They are at the
Western Railway Museum, aka Bay Area, several hundred miles
to the North. The cars are also not BU cars. They are Manhattan
el cars.
I stand corrected - thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Many of our rapid transit cars at Seashore have two poles. But our "A-train" R4/R7A 800/1440 has only one pole per car. They are usually coupled pole to pole for easy reversing:
__________\ /__________
|...800...| |..1440.....|
|_________>--==0====0========0====0===
Sorry for the crude artwork! And of course, only one pole is up at a time ... you DON'T get double the power with two poles up :-)
As I recall from chatting with Bill Pullman, those two cars are
left coupled-up and there's a high-voltage, high-current makeshift
bus jumper running between the cars....now is it underneath or
across from pole base to pole base?
What's the ampacity of the Seashore substation? At Branford,
we keep the overcurrent limit set at about 650 amps. That's
enough to allow one RT car to go into parallel, but not two
at the same time.
I've enjoyed all the thoughtful comments that were posted on this thread !
The only point that I'll add for Steve L's consideration is that a museum shouldn't let a rapid transit car go to the scrapper because it already has too many trolley & rapid transit cars needing restoration. The planners past & present at the museum know that more of the public will show up if you have a wide selection of equipment, e.g. are "steam" RxRs now adding diesel equip ?
Well this variety likely bring 'em back again for another ride ?
I was most happy to see that one of the Tranckless Trolleys at Brandford had been moved out of the weeds & someone had started working on it. I would hope someday that the museum can get the city fathers to let them run it around the Green.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks to all for posting in this thread. As always, it was good to hear what my fellow colleagues had to say. Let me close up this thread if I can by saying that the war to preserve continues on. Whether it be subway, or trolley car, the fight to preserve is equally important.
I will do my best to continue the war against the ravages of time. If each of you can contribute, then together the war to preserve will be won.
Cheers,
Stef
As one who practically grew up on PTC/SEPTA's ACF Brill TT's when they were in service on routes 29 and 79, I was delightfully surprised to see those at Branford when I visited there in '93. I had hoped that someday they would run again. Let's keep that hope alive!
I think trolley museums are well within their intent to preserve every kind of wheeled transportation that's within their budgets and their members' interests--even buses.
Imagine if Branford, for example, could have preserved such treasures as the BMT Bluebird or one of the multi-section cars. These would still be available to enjoy and study--trolley pole or no trolley pole. And the equipment would be around to sell or swap with other museums where the equipment might be more "on topic."
As to the trolley poles, I don't think that's such a big deal. Trolley poles can be removed as easily (more easily) as they were installed.
As it is, transportation museums are inherently unprototypical. The trolley equipment typically operates in a time, place and manner little related to its original use. It's the best we can do.
It's been a while already since we all heard/read this story. Has anyone found out which cars were affected?
The story mentioned over 100 cars being out of service -- that seems significant enough that someone here would be able to know about it. Was it just ordinary inaccurate reporting, or are there really 100 cars sidelined?
At least Steve confirmed that R46s were fine. Because Steve is in charge of the Jamaica Yard, I believe it was just inaccurate reporting.
Chaohwa
Last year, I saw the 110A carbodies up in the air at 207. The trucks were below, all cracked in the same spot. The 110A's
are the only trucks of the same contract that are cracked. We will be lucky if we get one set by the end of the year.
It's been a while already since we all heard/read this story. Has anyone found out which cars were affected?
The story mentioned over 100 cars being out of service -- that seems significant enough that someone here would be able to know about it. Was it just ordinary inaccurate reporting, or are there really 100 cars sidelined?
This is still a mystery to people at my location. The supposition is that the Post article actually referred to the fact that over the past couple of years, 100 cars have been found to have cracked trucks. If this is, in fact what the article was meant to convey, then it may be true. However all cars had the trucks replaced and were returned to service. more significantly, all cracks were found during routine inspection and none were found as a result of an incident. Cracks have not lead to incidentor delay to service, to date.
[ The supposition is
that the Post article actually referred to the fact that over the past
couple of years, 100 cars have been found to have cracked trucks. If
this is, in fact what the article was meant to convey, then it may be
true. ]
Well, I think the article was meant to be sensationalized journalism, and intended to sell papers (or raise ratings, for other media outlets). Perhaps they got their facts wrong, or perhaps they interpreted the facts presented to them in whatever way was most sensational.
[ Cracks have not lead to incidentor delay to service, to date. ]_
Ahh, but whether or not "Crack" has led to incidents or delays is another story...
This reminds me a NY Post report several days ago about the new technology trains R110A and R110B.
NY Post insisted that R110A and R110B trains should continue to be on service instead of staying at their respective yards.
However, they are here to test new technologies as references for future subway car purchase. That is the main mission.
My feeling is that NY Post has the numbers, but uses them in a different way to sell newspapers.
Chaohwa
I am going to Staten Island, and plan on catching my first subway at 9am. I live by the N20/N21 bus routes. Am I better taking them straight to Flushing and catching a poorly A/C redbird 7 express, or taking the N22 to Jamaica and taking the F train from 179st?
How is the F train at 9am, is it worse or better than the 7?
I plan on going to South Ferry with the 1/9, either connecting at Times Square, or with the F by getting an N/R down to WTC then 1/9 to S.Ferry (I know it's not a transfer, I have an unlimited card).
Which way is quickest, and coolest?
I can't comment on the 7 vs. the F, but if you're on the N/R, you could stay on until Whitehall rather than transferring to the 1/9 at the WTC.
It seems like I shove renovation plans in everywhere, but I think the Whitehall St. station sucks with it's narrow platforms and stairs. I propose that the middle track here is filled in and the stairs widened to accomodate the new EXTRA WIDE platform. And when the TA has the time, I think that they should BRUTALLY remove the 1970s BMT renovation tile from every station and dump it in the house of it's absent-minded designer. It should be replaced with BMT replica mosaics or at least something new and tasteful (variety is good). However, we shouldn't keep around any of the 70s tile as punishment for it's senseless murder of the BMT tiling. Sorry if I digressed a bit far.
Yes, yes, see what has been done at Cortlandt Street, a rehabilitation completed in 1997. Quite nice. AND to top it off - 5th Avenue/59th Street. LOVELY! As for the 1970s tile, Squire J.Vickers had to have been doing somersaults in his grave. Abysmal! A sacrilege! The PITS! <expletive deleted> Rip it down, expose the original, break out the scouring disks and SHINE, SHINE, SHINE! Repair and replace as necessary. I have all the original frieze colors/designs in my notebook. If they had done this sort of thing to the Canarsie Line (where they DO realize they have gems on their hands and are preserving them all) - I don't know WHAT I would have done. They have a few Canarsie stations where they have applied IND-style patches (i.e. Halsey Street, 3rd Avenue) but at Graham Avenue, there are new sections of frieze which faithfully recreate the original, down to the finest hand-set detail. And Lorimer Street, as ratty as it once was, is emerging from a much-needed rehab, its original colors restored.
Wayne
AS I've said before, somebody -- William Ronan or whoever -- in charge when the MTA took over in 1968 decided EVERYTHING on the systen should have the standard MTA blue-and-white (or sliver) design, which really debuted with the R-42's blue vertical stripe and continued with those gawdawful cinder block-sized tiles on the BMT Broadway and Fourth Ave. lines. It seemed like there was a 20-year period, starting with Grant Ave. on the A, that the designed kept seeking the ultimate ugly tile design for the subway. Of course, during the late 60s there was a trend that anything old was to be disdained and eliminated, whether or not it was subway tiles or other traditional things in society.
Fortuantely, traditonalism and a sense of history returned to the MTA in the mid-to-late 1980s, with the recoditioned trains, the return of the Redbirds and the redoing of stations in something close to their original design.
They can no longer cover up or remove the mosaics, as they have all been declared NYC Landmarks.
And those ARE cinderblocks, they're called 'finished blocks'
-Hank
Ah, but they DID at 3rd Avenue and 149th Street station. Not taking anything away from the artist who created those beautiful murals, but they buried the original 1905 Shield cartouches beneath a very boring layer of white-and-red tile. Perhaps they were in such bad shape that restoring them was out of the question. Still...
Bravo to whoever made the ultimate decision to "restore" rather than "replace". One look at 5th Avenue/59th Street, Astor Place, 33rd Street, 66th Street, etc. says it all. Next up on the rehab list:
DE KALB AVENUE. Man, do they ever need it there!
Wayne
Don't forget Chambers St. It may take a renovation of Ellis Island-like proportions to really spruce it up.
At least the slant R-40s are alive and well.
Aye, it is every bit as bad as the Main Hall was at Ellis Island, if not worse. Replacing that rotted steelwork in the ceiling and plugging the leak (diverting the stream?) THAT'S going to be mighty tough.
Wayne
I'd catch a 7 Express to Times Square; Transfer to a 2 or 3 southbound express to Chambers; then catch a 1 the rest of the way to South Ferry. If you're going to use the N/R you may as well stay on to Whitehall, that's right next to the South Ferry station on the 1.
It depends on where you live. I used to got to SUNY Old Westbury and found IMHO that taking the N20/21 into Queens was faster than the N22. Besides, the 7 into Manhattan in the AM is much faster than the F. If the 7 happens to be lo-crawling, then I'll hop off at 74th and catch the IND.
I think the 7 to GCT and a transfer to the 4 or 5 to Bowling Green (5 minute walk to South Ferry) would be faster.
I suggest taking the 7 express from Flushing (wait for an express rather than taking the local) to Queensboro Plaza and transfering to the N to Whitehall Street there. It may take a few minutes longer than some of the other routes, but the transfer to the N is across the platform in an elevated station. All of the other suggested transfer points are underground and will have you traversing corridors and platforms in some of NYC's hottest stations.
Since you plan on entering the subway at 9am, the "F" should be relatively be free of the usual subway traffic jams usually experienced earlier on during the am rush.
Since you have an unlimited card, then I think the quickest and coolest way to South Ferry would be to board the front of an "F" train at 179 St. Transfer to the "E" train at Kew Gardens (better chance of getting a seat at this point on the "E"). If you don't agree, then transfer at Fifth Ave. Take the "E" to World Trade Center. If you board the first car like I suggested, it is only a couple of yards to the cool WTC concourse when you get of the "E". At that point you can pick up the "1/9" in the World Trade Center.
Yup, that's what I did. I took the F to Kew Gardens, then got an E to WTC. Then I walked to the 1/9 through WTC to the Ferry.
Going back though, I could not take the F. Because I got to the station at 51 and Lexington, and it was packed (this was around 4pm). There were delays and there was a wait to get on trains. It was very hot, then when I saw rats on the tracks I decided to leave and wait awhile and take the 7 back.
The E/F station at Lexington is the worst subway station I've seen, it's dirty, hot, and rat infested.
I always use unlimted cards, as it widens my options, since sometimes it's just too hot to stay in the subway.
They gotta do something about that E/F station on Lexington, it is really a shambles.
I don't know what the answer is about Lex/53rd. I thought I heard of a station renovation job being contemplated there. Yes, there is a big rat problem at the end facing Queens. And garbage bags piled up there surely doesn't help. The platforms are dangerously narrow. With that said, and we all know what the problems are, but what about the solution? Any fixes will be very painful and will adversely effect the E & Fservice as well as passenger flow. In hindsight, before that free transfer with the #6 was accomplished not too many years ago, a station renovation job should have been done beforehand.
You're right, the MTA should have done a station renovation, but knowing the MTA, they would've probably had all westbound and eastbound trains bypass the station with the renovation going on. To understand the MTA, you have to think like them; difficult as it may seem.
That is probably what will need to be done when a renovation does take place. All those passengers there will make the station downright dangerous.
I remember a few years ago during the LA riots, people were leaving after 3 in the afternoon because they were afraid the riots would start up over here. The platform at Lex/53rd got SO overcrowded that the TA police were only letting a few people at a time go down to the platform. I should know, I was in that crowd. When I finally made it down, there was no place to walk; it was THAT crowded. Me and my friends had to be careful not to knock someone off the platform. The conditions were very dangerous.
I wonder if the GCT station on the 7 line has the same problem, as it is in the near deplorable state of the Lex station on the E/F line as well.
The N/R station at Lexington does not seem to be all that bad though, I've not seen many rats there, and the station is in better shape (like the design better too).
The tunnel for the N/R seems to be different too, it's square not the circular shape of the 7 and E/F.
I still think those who live in Astoria/Steinway have it easy, as the N train stations are cleaner than those on E/F and 7, plus the trains don't seem to get quite as crowded.
The A/C on the N is much better than the 7 and E/F too.
Personally most of those "deep bored" stations like the 7 at GCT and the E/F at Lexington seem to have the rat problems, and they are in bad shape.
The stations have rat problem because they are deeply bored and the rats come and try to entertain! :-)
Rim shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You beat me to the rim shot button this time! One of out talk radio stations in Denver has that, and some of the personalities take full advantage of it. Among them is a meteorologist who grew up on Long Island and, incidentally, knows David Letterman personally.
Anyway, the 59th St.-Lexington station is unique in that the BMT platform is sandwiched in between the express and local levels on the Lexington Ave. line. That's why the tunnels are box-shaped.
Steve B. -- The Denver TV meteorologist who grew up on LI is, I believe, Larry Green... who went to high school in Syosset with my cousin. Whoo! Are we off topic, or what?
The fellow I'm referring to is Ed Green. Ed is actually his middle name; his first name is Chris. He says he graduated from high school in 1965, supposedly with David Letterman. He does both radio and TV weather on the NBC affiliate, and claims he gets maybe a couple of hours of sleep per night.
I believe there is a Larry Green in Denver on our CBS (I think) affiliate.
Believe me, the 59th Street/Lexington Avenue station is no picnic. It too is poorly design and over crowded. Plus, unlike the E and F, you have to wait four times as long for a train.
I should know, I use the station very often.
N Broadway Local
in order to facilitate a quick rehab 53rd/Lex should be closed if not 24/7 then at least weekends to make a long dragged out job into something less time consuming. lets face it for a station rehab at 53rd/lex it would take 2 years or more with the station avail 24 hrs ..
Maybe when the 63rd St. connection is opened and the F will have an alternate route between Roosevelt Ave. and 47th-50th Sts., they will be able to have time to do a rehab job, at least on nights and weekends (though obviously, we'd be back to running either no E at all during those times, or sending the E to Whitehall as with the recent GO)
When the 63 St. connector is opened, the E can still get to WTC, but will have to go via Sixth Ave. to W.4 St., then it can go it's regular route past there. This would work well in the case of the previous 3 Sunday service disruptions when the F operated normal in the Queens bound direction only, yet went via the G to Brooklyn.
You're right. I forgot about the local crossover past West 4th.
Why is the Lexington IRT station at 125th Street so unusually arranged?
I just drew up a sketch to see if it were possible to have it arranged differently and it could.
Why the complex layout?
I presume that you are probably talking about the uptown track arrangement. I am taking a guess here but it seems that the lessons learned on the IRT, north of the 96th Street Station must have had some influence. The track arrangement with the flying junctions south and north of the station would theorically allow for greater movement to avoid bottlenecking in the case of doublecrossers (96th Street on the Westside) if put to optimal use.
1. When the B terminates at 145th Street, does it go to the lower level?
2. When the G ends at Smith/ 9th Streets, how does it get to the other local track?
Does it have to move along to the express tracks at 4th Avenue to make the switch?
Yes, it does. B trains go to the middle track as the terminal.
Yes, G train has to move along the express tracks at 4th Av to make the switch back to Queens-bound Smith-9 Streets.
Chaohwa
Do you folks in New York have the same problem with these so-called subway musicans as we do here in Chicago?
Do we have subway musicians? Yes. Are they a problem? No, not really. (Sure, there are the exceptions that prove the rule, but as a whole they're just fine.) Indeed, I would contend that they add something to the place - kind of like the characters you find around the general store in a small town.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are your subway musicians located at the stations where you are forced to listen to them while you wait for the train whether you find them talented or not?
Sometimes, yes. But typically, how long am I waiting - seven or eight minutes, tops, if I've just missed a train? There are many who are quite talented, some who are of average talent, and only a few who are of little or no talent. All of them, however, are using what talents they have to try and earn a few coins, rather than simply sitting on a streetcorner begging or going around picking someone's pocket. Those who openly solicit money, harass or interfere with passengers (or other musicians), use an amplifier, smoke, drink booze, or peddle merchandise in addition to performing will be asked to leave by TA personnel and, if they don't, will be removed by the police. (And yes, this DOES happen.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dear Mr. Mouse, sorry if I'm being politacally incorrect
but street musicians belong there, on the street. Because
if they stink I can just keep walking and a block later I
don't have to hear them. While in the subway I have to
listen to their crap. Playing their music at full blast
annoying everyone and making it difficult to carry on a
conversation is perfectlty legal while smoking isn't. What
is wrong with this picture?
Looks like we view this issue from different perspectives. I don't find the music annoying, by and large, and even when I do I'm not there long enough to be seriously irritated. I also haven't had a problem with volume; if they use any kind of amplification the TA folks give them the boot in a hurry, so it's not all that loud. I've heard a lot of real nice New Orleans-style jazz, some klezmer, a Polish accordianist, a sweet cornet (to rival Herb Alpert), some country, a sitar, a duo playing calypso - you name it, over the years I've heard it. It's an added dimension to the New York experience, and I don't mind at all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, Anon e. Mouse it seems that Mr. Man gets REALLY preturbed at some music being played in the subways.
I wonder if he is secretly a music critic for 'Billboard' magazine, perhaps??
;-)
BTW, the New York City Subway musicians are SO talented and appreciated that an entire CD was released a couple of years back (called appropriately, "SubPlay") that featured many of the platform performers doing their thing with the aide of professional studio equipment.
Doug aka BMTman
There's another one, called "Street Dreams", recorded right in the subway.
Also, Mr. Man might not know about the MTA music program that actually auditions subway musicians in prime locations... If i find more about it I'll let you know..
There's also a book called "Underground Harmonies" or something like that, it's listed in the bibliography.
-dave
I don't know about New York's or Chicago's systems, but in Toronto, subway musicians must first undergo an audition and then be authorized to play. This began back in the 70s, and at that time the quality was so-so - usually just people playing guitars etc. Today, with increased competition from talented musicians, who may be working their way through school or unable to find paying jobs, we now often have beautiful soloists, quartets, quintets playing classical music, soft jazz and Broadway showtunes. To hear these notes drift softly through the stations has a calming effect on me and I'm sure, countless other riders. I'd much prefer to throw them a few coins than panhandlers who do nothing for their money.
My sentiments exactly.
I knew about the CDs referenced earlier in this thread, but I hadn't heard that auditions were actually held for prime spots (or in any other city either, for that matter). Interesting!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Mr. Mouse I suppose you also agree with having permssion
walls for graffitti vandals.
If they are ALLOWED to do it on a wall, is it really graffitti?
Graffiti is simply art where it isn't wanted, much as a weed is a plant growing where it isn't wanted. If the owner of the wall says OK, then it's not graffiti. Granted, it may not be the style of art we like, but that's another issue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will attempt to post this message again. For some reason the moderator found my unaceptable, Permission walls are no better than giving theives permission to steal.
But if you give a thief the ability to take something, they're not strealing and are therefore not thieves.
Oh Please!
Who would you define as a thief? someone who legally comes into possesion of something? That's what letting people "steal" makes them do.
Jack, I think it's about time we ignore "The Mystery Man" since he seems to be a "flamer".
I suggest everyone do the same. Mr. Man is obviously looking for confrontations on the board.
Doug aka BMTman
Very good idea!
I will attempt to post this message again. For some reason the moderator found it unaceptable, Permission walls for graffiti vandals are no better than giving theives permission to steal.
Mystery Man, on the whole our subway musicians are basically accomplished musicians who are just down-on-their-luck, or are between gigs and just feel like giving back to the community and add a 'special touch' with their talents to what are sometimes routine trips.
However, it is true that there are a FEW panhandlers, beggers, etc., who use the rouse of being musicians as a way to legitimize their 'tin-cup' status. But that is the rare exception rather than the rule.
doug aka BMTman
I have no problem with musicians in the subway. This even gives us a chance to see and listen to types of music we would not usually hear. Just the other day while waiting for the N at Times Sqr. I listened to these guys play this Russian intrument (I don't recall it's name, it like a large triangular guitar), where I'm from originally i would have never expericened that. In it little odd way musicians in the subway enlighten our life everyday. True, some do (excuse the term) suck, but for the most part they're pretty good. As said in earlier posts, they're a whole lot better that other things in the Subway for example panhandlers
Just had to put in my 2 cents
AJ
The instrument you're referring to may quite possibly be a zither.
[However, it is true that there are a FEW panhandlers, beggers, etc., who use the rouse of being musicians as a way to legitimize their 'tin-cup' status. But that is the rare exception rather than the rule]
NYCT has rules for musicians that attempt to weed out the panhandlers. Musicians can accept contributions, for example by leaving their instrument cases open, but they can't go up to people and ask for money. Playing instruments on trains as opposed to platforms is prohibited.
Just a note to those, like myself, have gotten into the collecting habit.
From the Transit Museum Store:
Great Subways MetroCard holders: Delivery of the July set of 8 has been delayed until (who knows). whether there will be 16 in August is anyone's guess.
The Collectors set of 46 will not be available until September - a one month delay.
Museum Pices series:
The 4th in this series of 4 is expected to be on time (don't quote me)
=====================================================================
The upcoming Mets International set of 6 Fun Pass $4 MetroCards will be available at the Transit Museum stores starting the end of the 2nd week of August. They are expected (but don't hold your breath) to be available from http://metrocard.citysearch.com around 8/3.
The latest special Fun Pass available is the Lisa Lou - American Glamorana (best place is The TM store in GC).
I'
ll update again if I hear anything new.
There's also a "BLAZE" and "WWW.LookForTheSigns.COM" cards out there now. The latter is very attractive.
One neat way to get the new issues at the on-line store is to make a friend, i.e. order four Fun-Passes to make the min. order & sell two to a friend. That's how I got my "wheels" theme MCs.
Mr t__:^)
9:22P July 30,1999
Thurston,
As a Metrocard collector and also have a couple of friends who are,thanks for coming forward and possibly attracting more collectors out there. I have a nice collection that goes back to the NY Ranger series,but anything before that,I'm hot on the trail for. I keep my collection up to date with the help of other collectors. Sort of a brotherhood. By the way,as a member of the A.V.A., are you the same Thurston who placed an ad recently ? If you I was going to write you but the E-mail earlier did the trick. METROCARD COLLECTORS,UNITE !!!
Bill Newkirk
That's me the author of an article in the AVA's June "Farebox" about the rise of dip/swipe and demise of token use in large cities.
My collection starts in earnest about June '97, so I too am on the lookout for friends with older cards. I'm also enjoying exchanging out-of-town cards with AVA & SubTalk friends !
Still need to make a friend in Houston & San Fran ...
P.S. A member of my staff went on vacation to Atlanta. I encourgaged him to pick me up one of those cards (I have a few from a friend their, but now I also have a MARTA 20th Anniversity "One-way Pass").
BTW, anyone who wants to start off a collection, send me a private e-mail. If you have something to trade even better.
Mr t__:^)
I'm just back from a great day at Seashore. Gerry O'Regan and I hosted four SubTalkers who came up from NYC. I'll let them identify themselves... and tell their own stories.
I will summarize that we first took them out on Third Avenue Railway System #631. Then we took the "A-train" R4/R-7A 800/1440 for three trips out the main line, a VERY RARE EVENT. Then a visit to one of our barns to see Gibbs Car #3352; we put the pole up, but it was too far in back of the barn and blocked in to get it out. A quick trip on our work motor loco #300, and a walk through our LIRR MP-54 made a full afternoon. And yes, each of our visitors got the chance to get behind the controls of all of the above!
It was terrific having the guys visit, and I hope that other SubTalkers will have the opportunity to visit us in southern Maine soon.
Oh by the way, Steve B, the "A-train" still makes all the right noises.
buzz buzz
Heh, the trip on the subway cars *was* exciting - maybe a bit more than it should have :) Anyway, out of all the stuff we took, #300 was still my favorite. Next time though, guys, we have to all get there before noon!!!
Anyway - as for the MP-54 - IT's all there - there's about 100 Quik-Just locomotive brakes adjusters being stored in there. The bathroom is FULL of spare brake hoses. BUT I did manage to find a more or less complete set of replacement gauges, and the missing cover to the controller in the head end!!! Also there was all the bulleseye lights, and a few shoe beams. Lots of other misc goodies too, including the missing windshield wiper motor, handles, locks, fuse boxes, a few rollsigns from a Boston car, replacement red lenses for the marker lights. But no control handles :(
oh - and that switch that I thought was labeled "Compressor - 60V" really said "Compressor Gov"
All in all, a kickass day...
I'd really like to see the MP-54. Is the one at Seashore the only one left, or does RMLI have one also?
What's the status of the car? (Aside from being a temporary parts bin)
RMLI, amazingly, doesn't have one - they have baggage / passenger one, in sad shpe, with no traction equipment, save for the motors and grids. There are, to my knowlage, 3 left. One atSeashore, one at Warehouse Point, one in Syracuse (I think). The car on the LIE is NOT an MP-54 - it's a ping pong.
10-4, Todd. I'm jealous! As I recall, the buzzers on the R-1/9s sounded rather mellow, not nearly as harsh as those on later cars.
Can't wait to come up someday and play conductor on the A train. Or at least pose for a picture on the step plates....
I two am very jealous ... isn't life great !
We didn't get home untill after three in the morning. Another traffic jam in Connecticuit.
What a day. The trip was well worth it. To see TWO R9 cars in MU, and running at speed, well worth it. If I say so myself, Seashore is the best rail museum I have ever visited. A large and diverse collection and one hell of an operating line. There's another museum closer to home that gets alot of attention, but don't let the hype fool you. Seashore is the best.
And when a guy from a third museum says that, it should tell you something. If you ever get the oppourtunity to get up to Maine, visit this place.
I have to agree that Seashore Museum is the better of the ones I have been to. With the long downgrades I am happy that R-9s could MU up to 30 MPH once again. I enjoyed the eateries in the area and am planning a return trip with my wife next year. Thanks again Gerry and Todd for one hell of a day. Once I have obtained a video decoder I may email the runbys to those who desire.
If you get a dual video recorder you can copy any tape, it's a brand called go video, sold at circut city two four head or dual four head,have one now for three years....Karl M
Copy a tape or transpose into digital? I need a convertor, otherwise any video I have can be emailed still through my Snappy. Any suggestions?
Copied to tape could work I guess - just dumpe the whole tape - the inside shots are fun too :)
Harry - send a copy to me when you do (as a quicktime or mpg though, I can't do avi:P ) How'd the runby come out anyway?
Just want to say thank you on behalf of the museum for all the kind words. Sometimes we tend to be overly critical of ourselves, and its nice for someone new to come along and remind us what we have accomplished.
On the other hand, the Connecticut Department of Transportation should study traffic patterns before planning roadwork. Even the Big Dig in Boston doesn't contribute greatly to the traffic jams because they built temporary roadways to absorb the traffic.
For as long as I can remember the DOT in CT always does constr on BOTH 95 & 15 at the same time. I guess that's so they won't have a problem with folks changing their traffic patterns :-(
Mr t__:^)
Those weren't just words. For a first time visit the first impressions were WOW! I was surprised to see so many conductors for a weekday. The shops were clean and dry and the rail conditions were good. We got as many trips as we needed and I was impressed by the electric locomotive we used for the last one. At TMNY we have a lot of work to do if we want a museum as good as Seashore so we'll just keep "chugging away" at it. We also have nice straighaways and downgrades so perhaps one day Todd and Gerry will be guests at the throttle when our 825 powers up. Thanks again.
I'm glad to see you gents had fun. I told Todd I was interested in visiting Kennebunkport one of these days. Hopefully, I'll be able to do it at some future time. The Museum has it's own intersting items, but I will not take anything away from the other Trolley Museums, as each has it's own unique flavor that makes it stand out with the general public.
You guys ran down the line with #800/#1440??? That sounds way cool!!!
-Stef
>You guys ran down the line with #800/#1440??? That sounds way cool!!!
It sure was!!!! Actually, it was very hot for the first fwew min until we got a breeze blowing through it :)
Sorry I had to pull out at the last minute, Todd, but duty called. I'm sure that Erik told you that i was observed "working out of title" Tuesday afternoon, playing RCI. I hope that August will be kinder than July has been and I can get a few days off and make the trip,
Yes, Steve, I heard of your ordeal.... we missed you. For you and any other SubTalkers who would like to visit Seashore without driving all the way, the Boston Street Railway Association is sponsoring a bus trip from Boston to Seashore on Sunday, September 12. For information, you can call their recording at 781-433-7015.
Hey Todd - if Steve, Erik, Harry, etc, want to do this again in aug - lemme know - I'd love to, but I'll need to play tag along with someone, cause I can't afford to stay overnight much anymore...
Oh, BTW - the membership form is sitting right next to me here - it gets filled out and mailed wonce I find a few spare pennies...
Okay - this is gonna be a one time offer. I don't want to start a new thread here either. I just came into posession of several copies of the current version of the"Revenue & Non-revenue Car Drawings" book. This is the one that covers all revenue cars from teh R-1 through R-110b and most work equipment from the original IND work motors through the R-134s. This is the same book we were using to raise money for the "March of Dimes" last year and the year before.
Here's the deal. I was gonna go the e-Bay route but here's what I want to do. Postage for the book runs about $5 for first class (yes, it's a fairly comprehensive volume). I'll offer ten of the copies to the ten highest SubTalk bidders over $5.00. So as not to waste Dave's space here, I'll only respond to those who E-mail me privately. As always, all proceeds (beyond the postage) will go to charity. This time:
1/2 to the "March of Dimes"
1/2 to the "Guide Dog Foundation"
As always, thanks for your support.
Steve
Okay - this is gonna be a one time offer. I don't want to start a new thread here either. I just came into posession of several copies of the current version of the"Revenue & Non-revenue Car Drawings" book. This is the one that covers all revenue cars from teh R-1 through R-110b and most work equipment from the original IND work motors through the R-134s. This is the same book we were using to raise money for the "March of Dimes" last year and the year before.
Here's the deal. I was gonna go the e-Bay route but here's what I want to do. Postage for the book runs about $5 for first class (yes, it's a fairly comprehensive volume). I'll offer ten of the copies to the ten highest SubTalk bidders over $5.00. So as not to waste Dave's space here, I'll only respond to those who E-mail me privately. As always, all proceeds (beyond the postage) will go to charity. This time:
1/2 to the "March of Dimes"
1/2 to the "Guide Dog Foundation"
As always, thanks for your support.
Ooooops - that's the ten highest bids by Wednesday August 4, 1999
Steve
There was a 12-9 on the R line Thursday 7/29. It was particularly greusome and tied up Queens service for well over an hour. Amyone get caught in the mess?
There was another one Friday in the early afternoon at Chambers St. on the A & C lines This one caused Brooklyn bound A & C trains to be rerouted over the F line from W.4th St. to Jay St.
If anyone happens to get on a LIRR train and finds a hot car, I'd really appreciate knowing the car numbers.......
Steve - not sure - but on the GCT shuttle, there was a hot car today - 1942 I think (It was the middle track, head car going to GCT), and another on the #9, though I forgot it's number - you collecting hot car numbers again this year?
I noticed one of yours, 3480 had nicely spotted wheels.
You would have had to look awfully hard to see them because 3480 has had several days vacation on 36 track (today on the apron) in Jamaica Yard as we work on a hand brake problem and address some other needs. The car was removed from service for false handbrake indication on Tuesday.
I noticed it on the south end of an E train last over a week ago. Maybe it wasn't a false indication after all.
The RCI at Van Courtland say's he has 29 Hot cars on the No.1/9 line. One car I know for sure car 2325
I already have quite a few NYCT numbers. I'm looking for some LIRR numbers now.
Track 1, as you head towards GCT, the second car from the front is hot. I've somehow managed to get on there several times with diffrent co-workers and we always end up making a beeline for the end door. It might be the one that has the inverted "11" on it, too.
This is the first time in quite a while I've had to ask this, but would it be possible when using jargon like "12-9" to have an explanation or a definition for those like me who aren't provided with lists of such terms by employers or others?
Thanks,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Go visit http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/radiocode.html 12-9 is person under train.
Thanks for the reference. The original posts didn't mention that 12-9 was a radio code--for all I knew, it was somebody's working hours.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Over the years, the lexicon of us operating personnel has creeped into our everyday life. That one has come about because most of us would rather ot discuss the gory details of a 12-9.
I have been wondering for the past several years if there is logic behind the "beeping" signals which seem to herald trains' arrival into a station.
I used to take the F train from Seventh Ave., Brooklyn and I vaguely recall two distinct timbres of beeping: one was a pure beeping, the other was a beep with a flutter or kind of whistle to it. In my hazy recollection, one was for uptown trains and one was for downtown.
Nowadays I find myself riding the D train home from Seventh Ave. (coincidence), Manhattan, where both the D and the E trains stop. There seems to be the same sort of beeping, but I haven't yet been able to correlate one sort of beep with a specific train.
Is there a standardized system? And does this beeping only happen on the B D F Q lines?
Thanks for assuaging my curiosity...
To the best of my knowledge, the cureent beepings are the same for all trains; however, somewhere near to the beep should be a red zipper sign that should be flashing the train and direction that is arriving, ie Rockefeller Ctr flashes DOWNTOWN EXPRESS or DOWNTOWN LOCAL depending on arrival of B D Q or F.
Some of the new signs (the tri-colored ones) are replaceing the old red zippers. Noted station: Lawrence St on the N/R/M.
-Hank
If you have a good ear, you could distinguish between the various beeps, but the differences are due to the fact that no two speakers/signs are exactly the same. At any given station you might be able to accustom yourself to the different sound, but not systemwide.
I just got back to Boston after a 3 1/2 day trip to NY to ride some rails...and boy did we! My friend and I (from Seashore) rode the subways, LIRR, NJT, PATH, and the PCC's in Newark. While in the city, we rode on EVERY line(with a small exception due to the WillyB closing, we only got to ride the Manhattan shuttle portion), and had some interesting happenings...
I was unaware of service disruptions, so it was kind of strange to ride an E train from Whitehall St up the Broadway Line.
We got a ride around the City Hall loop
My friend was a victim of "Rush Hour rage" at 34th Street & Broadway
He was also on an N train when the conductor didn't open the front section at City Hall
all in all a fun trip..One thing, I do have a list of the areas we covered, and would love some idea of how many miles we rode on the subways....The itinerary is WAY too long to post. If someone would be willing to help, and could e-mail me, I would be much appreciative...
How did you manage to ride around City Hall loop?
all we did was ask the operator...and told him we were on a fan trip. He said sure...
Lucky you!
Just yesterday, all the LIRR towers began giving out orders to all crews running DE30 equipment, telling them to cut out the dynamic brakes.
Does anyone know what the issue is that has caused this? There's a myriad of things that can go wrong with the dynamics, having to do either with the system itself, or it's affect on train handling. Conductors I spoke to had no idea what the problem was.
BTW: Anyone know how the dynamics work on the DE30's? Is it a automatic blend based on trainline air, or a separate control? Does it operate when one is running from the cab car?
If it does work when operating from the cab car, I wonder if they had a problem with stress on the couplers or something.. That'd be amusing.
While I am not sure of the specifics of the LIRR DE30's, a couple questions were posed by the original poster. Maybe this will help.
On the Amtrak equipment (F40's, former Metroliner cab cars, etc.) the dynamic brake is blended with the air brakes, and all is controlled using the normal air brake valve.
If the train is in "push" mode, the blended braking does work from the cab car where there is NO separate dynamic brake control.
Twice in the past week, I've had the same problem cause a delay on LIRR #570 (9:00 Jamaica->Oyster Bay). last thursday, on a set of old equipment, we hit a piece of debris just north of Albertson station. It must have gone under the Loco and at least the first car. Halfway to the next station, we went into the hole. Apparently whatever it was got itself caught up in the brake hose between the 1st and second car, and disconnected the brake pipe.
The crew had to go get flashlights and untangle the hoses (one end got wedged up in the coupler pocket), and go through the whole charge/brake test routine.
Then, a couple of nights ago, on the same train (now using a set of new equipment), We pulled halfway out of Albertson, and the engineer stopped just as he hit the debris. The conductor went down and got it out from under the plow of the locomotive. Apparently, to prevent the vandals from putting the same thing back on the track, they brought it into the train. It turned out to be an outdoor recliner. Not one of these cheap thin aluminum jobbies, but one constructed from thick steel piping. Of course, it looked like a pretzel after losing the fight with a DE30.
Sometimes, it really isn't their fault.
I suppose the LIRR's ultimate "not their fault" delay occurred a few weeks ago when some whacko who'd just murdered his girlfriend decided to go the self-immolation route next to the tracks in Westbury :-)
A major fire at a warehouse on Van Sinderin Ave. by Sutter has nearly totally shut down service on the L line. The fire started around rush-hour yesterday afternoon, but incredibly, the inferno WAS STILL in effect during today's morning rush.
In an effort to provide SOME rail service, NYCT had trains being 'wrong railed' between Rockaway Parkway and Livonia Ave. There passengers were given block tickets for the option of either jumping on a shuttle bus service to Broadway-East New York for A and C trains, or taking the New Lots (#3) into the city.
With all the chaos of the disrupted service, I must commend the NYCT for handling the situation with professionalism and little hardship to the riding public in light of the serious re-routing.
(NY1 and some other media were at the Livonia/shuttle bus transfer point interviewing riders, so I suspect the evening news will carry something on the L train disruption.)
Doug aka BMTman
[A major fire at a warehouse on Van Sinderin Ave. by Sutter has nearly totally shut down service on the L line. The fire started around rush-hour yesterday afternoon, but incredibly, the inferno WAS STILL in effect during today's morning rush.]
Was there any physical damage to subway property?
Not that I could see. The warehouse is adjacent to the L's "El" structure just before the northbound track makes that snaking turn into the Atlantic Ave. station. I think the real concern was serious smoke conditions that would've made problems for train service. Also, the firefighters certainly would've needed a wider latitude in their efforts to fight the blaze which made a power-shutdown along the line a neccessity.
Of course there could also be a problem of possible partial or total building collapse since the structure is one of those near-100 year-old buildings along the East New York 'industrial corridor'. Although in all likelyhood the structure will fall away from the El structure, still it is a concern not to be taken lightly.
Doug aka BMTman
Where is that 3 to L transfer when you need it?
3TM
Why is that not a free transfer? It would be a nice additional alternative to getting into Manhattan for J riders during the bridge closing.
I thought it would be myself since the 3 and J are about a block apart in Lower Manhattan............
Although the Canarsie L line and the #3 New Lots intersect each other by Livonia and Van Sinderin, unfortunately their stations are too far away from each other to make a free transfer practical. Obviously, if someone has an unlimited MetroCard this wouldn't be a problem.
If NYCT wanted to, they could spend some cash and make a truly connecting passageway between the two elevated lines. But the pressure would have to come from the riding public. And it obviously is not there yet.
Doug aka BMTman
It looks like what used to be a mezzanine is under the east end of Junius Street station. It's a red-painted building hanging under the elevated structure. Perhaps they could resurrect this. First you need stairs from the platform (punch a few holes and erect a pre-fab metal stair like at 14th/8th Ave) Then build an above-street walkway (a block and a half, MAYBE) and connect it to the pedestrian bridge over the Bay Ridge ROW, put it inside fare-control, attach it to Livonia Avenue station and you're done.
Wayne
I thought about that myself crossing "the bridge" to get to the other side of Livonia. In fact @ Livonia, there is an exit for the walkway leading to Junius. BTW, the old mezzanine is at Junius, the real exit is at Sackman/Powell Sts. Just a little trivia info........
3TM
I was surprised to see that Livonia Avenue is actually bisected by the Bay Ridge ROW. There was a lot of rusting stuff down there, plus some abandoned tracks. The entrance to Livonia Avenue station is a gem, similar to Sutter Avenue, with old 1906 ironwork and a wooden walkway.
And they have a nice garden growing along Livonia Avenue. The new two-family houses that have sprouted up in the area are nice too. One thing I noticed about Junius Street station that was unusual - it has full-length canopies on both platforms, whereas the other stations do not.
Wayne
Also one family houses, in which one I do reside in........
It's nice to see new homes going up and a neighborhood on the rebound.
The same thing has happened up in the Bronx, along the #2/#5 lines. Yours is one of the attached row-houses, no? We used to use Linden Boulevard to get from Elmont to my Grandmother's apartment in Flatbush and I remember when the area wasn't quite so well. Things look very different now! My first trip on the #3 line in quite a few years.
Last June I took pictures at New Lots on the "L" - there is a fairly large vacant stretch there where Mother Nature seems to have reclaimed it. A single lonely building stood at (my guess) Snediker and New Lots.
Wayne
You are correct. These new homes are being built from Sutter Av all the way down to New Lots Ave. From Snediker to Sheffield Ave. Wherever there is an empty lot, it would be fenced off. There are open spaces on Livonia Ave. My mother told that this would be sold for commercial uses only. ENY neighborhood is definitely on the rebound. Hopefully MTA will see the increase of people in the neighborhood and subway and bus service in the neighborhood will be modified to adapt to this.........
The end of the walkway to the L comes only a few feet away from this mezzanine. Al you would need to do is knock out a wall and build a short connecting bridge. Then the bridge would be within the fare zone, so I guess a problem would be for non-riders just crossing over to the other side. The stairways to the Manhattan bound platform (behind a door, and to a shed in the middle of the ROW after the middle track turns off) are still there, becuase this is used as some sort of utility room. I was taking my wife to the Brooklyn Museum last Tues. and we went this way, and I see that they locked iron wheel gate from the Canarsie Bound plaform. I wondered why they did this. Then we got caught in the service diversions. She was tired.
I've gotten word from a TA Supervisor that limited L train service will continue until the building -- which the Fire Dept. had to allow to burn itself out -- is demolished. So, I would assume that sometime early next week service will be restored to normal (If in fact the building is torn down over the weekend). As previously noted, trains are running in a shuttle loop between Rockaway Parkway and Livonia Ave. Trains are being 'wrong railed' to accomodate rush-hour loads.
Doug aka BMTman
I looked at some of the ideas in the "long list", and most of them are _really_ far fetched. One thing I saw that piqued my interest: It says IRT 4/5/S/2/3 loop. It proposes instituting a loop service via lex ave, shuttle, 7th ave, and south ferry loop.
Would it be very difficult to do this? It seems that you'd need to go counter-clockwise for it to work, and you'd probably need a switch somewhere on the shuttle tracks, but you can go from uptown 7ave local tracks into the shuttle, across to east side, then down the lex local. At some point you'd need to go to lex express to get to south ferry.
Logistical details aside, this _would_ provide a connection between GCT and Penn, which I think is one of the most blatant deficiencies of the current regional system.
Going only one-way would lessen the utility of this, but make it easier to implement. Going in both directions you'd need to build a flying junction or it would create an operational nightmare. But even such a (set of) flying junctions wouldn't be a completely ridiculous thought. It seems like it would be on the scale of the 63st/QB connection.
Thoughts?
Although a 4/5/S/2/3 loop would provide a useful service, it would be an implementation nightmare. In order to provide this service, you would be taking a big chunk out both Lex and 7th Avenue service north of 42nd Street and to Brooklyn.
Another idea mentioned which sounds good on paper is extending "6" service one station south, to serve Fulton Street. This sounds good on paper, but would cut into express capacity, since the line south of Brooklyn Bridge is only two tracks.
This shows the problems of these "shotgun" studies, which lump lots of ideas together, making easier to pare both the worthy and unworthy which the operating agencies don't want, making a mockery of public participation.
Realistically, the only long-term "proposals" that really made operational sense are those based upon the Second Avenue Subway. There really is not much space in Lower Manhattan in which to thread another line, and construction on an existing line, such as adding tracks to the Lexington Avenue line south of Brooklyn Bridge, would be near impossible from an engineering perspective and would cause more problems then they would ultimately solve.
Even some of the service proposals such as "Skip-Stop Express" for the Lexington Avenue Line would make a real mess out of platform usage with people having to wait for just the right train.
Practically, Water Street is about the only street in lower Manhattan where a tunnel could be constructed with reasonable engineering.
Thanks, Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40) and Steve B ("8AVEXP), for your delightful and postive comments concerning the R-10's and the IND "A" line (always my all-time subway car fleet and route) in general as you have posted on this message board for quite sometime. I personally could not have said it any better than the both of you have posted here in the past. Again, thanks.
But alas, it is quite a bitter shame that today there are only two R-10's in existence: restored "museum" car #3184 (owned by Railway Preservation Corporation) and the R.C.I. Yard Office-Training School car #3189. In terms of the former, it is a pity that #3184 has been sitting in all of its glory in the outdoors stored at Coney Island Yard, and to the best of my knowledge, the general public (including even myself) as not been allowed to be inside that car.
Perhaps, as a personal dream for myself in particular, that TPTB at Railway Preservation Corporation and/or MTA NYCT will someday permit a inside tour of #3184 or even an opportunity just to see it operate again. The last two occasions that I was able to be inside an R-10 were on Friday, September 1, 1989 in regular service on the IND "C" line, and the fabulous "Farewell" fantrip sponsored by the Electric Railroaders' Association (which almost lasted ten hours) on Sunday, October 29, 1989. Since that time, I stopped becoming that very excited in riding the NYC Subway as a thrilling experience.
-William
... and the fabulous "Farewell" fantrip sponsored by the Electric Railroaders' Association (which almost lasted ten
hours) on Sunday, October 29, 1989.
I'm not Wayne or Steve B but :) ...
Reminds me of the Farewell to the R-30 Fantrip. I think it also ran 10 hours, I KNOW it ran 2 hours overtime because there was an impromptu vote on the train as to whether or not the ERA should pay for the OT. Of course we did.
As for the R-10 running again, well, perhaps we could hope to see it in 2004 running with all the other equipment in some kind of parade....
--Mark
William (Mr. R-10), good to hear from you again. It's been some time. Of course, you know how I feel about those magnificent cars. I added the 8AVEXP last week on the occasion of two significant milestones, as it turns out: the 34th anniversary of my very firsy subway ride, and the 32nd anniversary of my first ride on an A train.
I agree it's a shame that more of the R-10s weren't saved.
Does anyone know the story behind the art project in the abandoned Myrtle Avenue station? I haven't looked for it in a while but last time I saw it, graffiti covered much of it.
The station is visible for Manhattan-bound D and Q train riders in between DeKalb Ave. and the Manhattan Bridge. As the train passes, the images painted on the station walls appear animated due to an optical illusion caused by the placement of bars in front of the murals.
I was told that some students from Pratt Institute created this installation. I vaguely remember that this was an actual school project.
Any information about this?
Monica Berger
monicaberger@earthlink.net
It was installed in 1979 or 1980. The artist's name was Bill Brand, and the thing was sponsored by a company called Creative Time. It's called "Masstransitscope" or "Masstransiscope" (no "t"). I recall that the thing had to be modified after installation because trains moved through the area too slowly for the "zoetrope" (movieola) effect to be fully realized.
Unfortunately, I don't know what happened to Mr. Brand or Creative Time after this project, nor do I have any other information.
David
Just remembered that back about 1970 in the Montreal subway they had a cigarette ad in the tunnel of one of the lines that used the same "zoetrope" system. The box would turn sideways and a ciagrette would come out as the train moved down the line. I don't think the MTA would agree to put anything smiliar in their tunnels right now.
How did Brand get into the Myrtle Avenue station? Is there an old entrance in the area that is now closed?
Kevin Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think that the old entrances remain for that platform, but that they have been replaced (on the surface) with trapdoor entrances similar to those used for emergency exits. Can anyone more familiar than I with the area verify that?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There appears to be a covered over subway entrance on Myrtle and Flatbush that says CLOSED, this should be it.
Thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It would also have been possible simply to have a train stop at Myrtle and let the artist unload materials and the like. I think that would have made a lot more sense than carrying things down unused staircases that may have deteriorated dangerously.
But that's common sense, and we're talking about a location under the jurisdiction of the TA, so more likely, they would have required that everything be let down though sidewalk gratings on string, held with chewing gum (the way we used to get coins when I was a kid).
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Thanks! By the way, I thought it odd that there is no mention of the art project on this website.
So it turns out that the name of the project is "Masstransiscope." With that helpful lead, I unearthed the following from the Hampshire College website where Brand is a professor. Creative Time, by the way, is a non-profit and it is still an important force in the NYC art scene.
I would still love to know the whole story behind the project and have contacted Brand. I'll report back whatever I find out.
If he did the project in 1981,the Myrtle Ave. station was closed in 1969, so he must have gotten approval from the city/MTA. The sneaking Pratt students must be some kind of urban myth or the figment of someone's imagination.
From the Hampshire College website:
Bill Brand, professor of film and photography, holds a B.A. in art from Antioch College and an M.F.A. in film from the School of the Art Institute Chicago. He has taught at Sarah Lawrence College and Hunter College and was awarded the MacArthur Chair at Hampshire for the years 1994-97. Since 1973, his films have been screened extensively in the U.S. and abroad in museums, independent film showcases, and on television. They have been featured at major film festivals including the Berlin Film Festival and New Directors/ New Films Festival. The work is written about in cinema history books and in articles by Paula Rabinowitz, Erik Barnouw, David James, Janet Maslin, Paul Arthur, J. Hoberman, B. Ruby Rich, and Noel Carroll, among others. His 1981 "Masstransiscope," a mural installed in the subway system of New York City which is animated by the movement of passing trains, is widely regarded as a seminal work of public art. In 1973 he founded Chicago Filmmakers, the showcase and workshop and until 1991 served on the Board of Directors of the Collective for Living Cinema in New York City. He is currently an Artistic Director of Parabola Arts Foundation which he co-founded in 1981. Since 1975, he has operated BB Optics,an optical printing service specializing in 8mm blow-ups and archival footage. bbrand@hampshire.edu
Monica, there is some mention of it (albeit not with any detail) on one of the offsite links to Joe Brennan's pages. Click here to link directly to the page, or follow the links from the main page of this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks again. I looked at what Brennan has on it.
It is true that the project is heavily vandalized with graffiti in the last five to ten years. I can still clearly remember when it was in its pure state. I've been riding the D or N train to Brooklyn since around 1987 and I still remember the first time I saw it! It's too bad the MTA didn't try to secure the station entryways better.
I wonder what Brand will have to say about this if I hear back from him.
It makes you wonder about what kind of agreement the MTA has with artists today. I bet they have to sign a waiver that they can't sue the MTA if their work is defaced or otherwise they give up all rights to their work once it is done.
Monica
> By the way, I thought it odd that there is no mention of the art
> project on this website.
Like I said before, it's a lot easier to get suggestions than volunteers. You seem like you will be the expert once you gather all your data; if you'd like to write something up I'd be glad to post it.
Sure.
Why did the YCTA pick the colors it uses for the trains red and silver
Do you mean the Redbirds?
If so, they use red and silver because they think using tuscan red paint can fight graffiti.
Chaohwa
Actually it has more to do with railroading tradition than anything else - the Tuscan Red (actually, Tuscan Red is a much darker shade - the color of the tile at Utica Avenue IND) used on the Redbirds is also known as "Traditional Railroad Red". Pennsy used this or a similar color on its PATH (H&M) MP-38 cars way back when.
Wayne
I think it was back in 1984 when the MTA got new leadership that the decision was made to go back to the "Traditional" railroad red color for the trains. The silver tops may be to reflect heat better during the summer.
Actually there is one more story from back in the 80s. David Gunn ran the show back then and was an alum of Harvard. The colors selected for the refurbished Redbirds were said to be reminiscent of the Harvard color scheme.
As Casey Stengel used to say, "You could look it up."
The choice of color was actually quite simple. The MTA felt that it might be questionable to paint the cars called redbirds, Blue.
Uh, they weren't called redbirds till they were painted RED, right?
-Hank
(I believe you forgot to use your tag)
Thanks Hank. I was trying out material for my retirement speech (somewhere between 2006 & 2008). That's another 'joke' I'll leave out of my prepared remarks.
What were their official title during the middle years (1971-84) when they were painted silver/white with the blue stripe? (I've got my own title for the green-and-gray interior they came up with, but it's unprintable. The tan and orange color scheme of the late 70s was a major impovement)
I was not there back in the 70s but if you talk to some of the old tiers (not many of them around now) they were all referred to as "That piece of #^$&" or words to that effect. I suppose that attitude is one reason why the fleet fell into such a state of dis-repair. Incidently, the R-15s were the only cars to be delivered withthe Tan Stripe, as far as my records show.
Ah yes, the Glory Days, when the MTA tried to make every subway car perform as well as the R-16...
You know, in the 1970's there were only six or eight solid trains of GE R-16's out at any given time. But it's amazing how over the years they've gotten this deadly reputation. What's worse is how they infected this on the Westinghouse cars which ran pretty good. Relatively speaking of course.
Most of us know what a disaster the MCM controller was. But the WE unit switch was a damn fine controller.
A train of WE R-16's ran fine, and held it's own against most other types until the 32's showed up.
When the TA mixed everything up then it was anybody's game.
I'm pretty sure that the Archer Avenue Extension wasn't all that was intended for subway service to Jamaica/ Eastern Queens.
I've made a short route of sorts growing out of the Archer extension. Could it work like this?
From Jamaica Center, south:
Along Guy R. Brewer Blvd.-
South Road
Here, the E and J/Z come to form one level
110th Avenue
Linden Blvd(express station)
119th Avenue
Baisley Blvd
137th Avenue
Farmers Blvd-Conduit Avenue(express station)
North of the station, a descent to a four track holding "yard"
Roughly along 145th Road
Springfield Blvd(J/Z terminate- line thins to two tracks)
227th Street
Then along 249th Street
Brookline Blvd.
145th Avenue-Rosedale(terminal)
The line would add 22.7 track miles, 11 stations and 5.3 route miles(all underground) to the system.
My rudimentary track map looks good. What do you think?
It would be much better if they extended the line east under Jamaica Avenue, out towards the Nassau border. I originally thought that is what they had planned when they built the line. If not, at least as far as 168th Street where the old el used to terminate.
If they don't plan on that, I would rather they extend the Hillside Avenue Line as they intended back in 1939 before WWII and the Federal Government confiscated all of NYC's money.
I did mine that way as to bring the subway to areas like Locust Manor and Rosedale, which I thought was part of all that.
Actually, according to the 1939 proposal, the IND Fulton Street subway, in addition to joining up to the Fulton Street El at Grant Avenue was supposed to be extended to South Queens and service Locust Manor and Rosedale. Obviously, that never happend either.
I don't know what the difficulty in picturing that extension is. The Archer Avenue extension was going to run on the western section of the LIRR to Laurelton through St. Albans. There would be no new track, just a replacement by the subway and all LIRR trains would run on the eastern section of the track. Look on the current MTA map and you will see a split section just south of Jamaica Terminal, which is where the extended Archer Ave. Jamaica line was to go.
The 1968 plan in the $2.5B bond issue still only had the line extended down the existing LIRR right-of-way out to Rosedale.
Your plan is nice but many Queens residents would be up in arms against it.
Broadway El Steve,
Very good idea, except, why not JFK airport?
Which segments of the Chicago system are underground?
There are four (4) sections of subway on the CTA.
I will list them in chronological order of their opening:
The State Street Subway was opened in October 1943. Dan Ryan bound trains (Red Line) leave the North Side elevated structure, traveling southbound, at Willow Street - just south of Armitage. The tunnel turns east just as it gets under the pavement to travel below Clybourn. The tunnel again turns east to travel under Division. Finally, it turns south to line up under State Street. The tunnel still has an exit just south of Roosevelt Road at 13th Street; however, all trains now travel in the new section (1992) of the tunnel that brings the Dan Ryan trains out into the open again near 18th Street, ducking under the "new" Midway Line running overhead on a viaduct. The State Street Subway has ten station stops.
The Dearborn Subway (Blue Line) was opened on February, 1951, from a point just north of Division Street traveling under Milwaukee Avenue towards downtown. At Lake Street the tunnel turns east to travel under Lake. After leaving Clark/Lake station the tunnel turns south to travel under Dearborn Street. Just after Jackson Station, the tunnel turns west this time to LaSalle Street (part-time statio), which was the end of the line before the Congress Street line opened June 22, 1958. The line ducks under the Chicago River and stops at Clinton Street. At this point the line is under the Eisenhower (nee Congress) Expressway. The trains regain the surface and start their journey in the median of the expressway just east of the Halsted - UIC Station.
A short subway exists on the Blue Line between Logan Square and the portal to the alignment in to Kennedy Expressway. 'L' trains duck into the subway just east of the Logan Square Station, near the site of the old Logan Square 'L' Station on the Milwaukee Ave. 'L' line. After the Logan Square stop, the tunnel turns to run under Kimball and the next stop is at Belmont/Kimball. After leaving the Belmont/Kimball station the route turns northwest to climb the portal that brings to trackage into the median of the Kennedy Expressway for a fast ride to O'Hare Airport.
The last section of subway on the Blue Line is into the O'Hare terminal. The trackage ducks under the pavement close to the airport to enter a three track Terminal in O'Hare.
For the record, of the total mileage of 'L' or rapid transit right-of-way, the subway is the least amount. Trackage on steel structure, in expressway median and on embankment makes up the majority of the mileage in Chicago. That is what makes the Chicago system so much fun as you can sightsee from the trains.
Jim K.
Chicago
Any body have a problem with my Grammar Skill??? Than don't even bother to e-mail me if you don't like my Grammar Skill. Just want to tell you that im not very good in writing and have a little speech problem because i am Disability. Do you think MTA going to hire me because i have a poor grammar skill or Disability?? My father know some one at West Side Depot who is Disability and have a same problem i have. He been driving a bus for 9 years and No body don't have a problem with him. People at West Side Depot do really care about Disability people. Any way Jack Arther aka school bus hater do you have a problem with people who have Grammar Skill or Disability?? Well Respect me and other subfans on the post. I been a Transit Fan for 26 years and love watching buses & trains passing by.
Peace Out
Meaney
A speach problem does not translate to typing. How are you going to get the required high school diploma to get a job with transit at all?
-Hank
Hey Hank, I have a high school diploma and went to college for one year than i quit.
Peace Out
Meaney
It doesn't show. Unless you went to a public High School. In that case, I suggest you sue them for failing to educate you.
This is going to seem pretty damned insensitive, I think, but how did you manage to graduate HS with such a poor mastery of english? Did you go to a CUNY college, did you take the NYS Regents in English? The RCT in Writing?
-Hank
I never went to CUNY college, NYS Regents in English and RCT in Writing. But i went to LaGuardia College for just one year. I did my best in High School and pass writing & reading. It took me five years to pass reading and three year to pass writing. Right now my english is OK and everybody keep saying i talk normal but if i talk fast than i miss some words. I can read very well but im not very good in writing.
Peace Out
Meaney
Grammar notwithstanding, Meaney and most everyone succeed at communicating their thoughts and ideas. Isn't this what matters?
CUNY is the City University of New York, of which LaGuardia Community College is a part. Is English your native tongue?
-Hank
LaGuardia is part of the CUNY system but it might as well be the 13th & 14th grade for the NYC Bd. of Education.
Why is this discussion being held on these pages,,on top of that,why are you picking on one fellow"s language or lack of language skills.
Did you ever hear of the expression"people who live in glass houses ,should not throw stones".
This is the same crap that went on ,in the BusTalk,even with the to.from stuff!!!
This is a Transportation group,keep it that way,please!!
And by the way,I have 4 years of College,,from Queens College,back in the 70s.'
Steve
Did you know Jerry Seinfeld?
I don't have problem with my tongue and i was born here. My problem is i do not pro noun the first letter like "S"sound or "Z" sound. Like i say David and people will think i say with Z like Zavid. If i talk to fast and people don't understand what im saying. If i talk slow and people will understand what i say. My IQ is 120.
Peace Out
Meaney
I'm sure you are a great guy, but you give people the wrong impression
with your spelling errors, etc. My I.Q. is 117 and with the aid of the computer (you should see my typing errors) I just backspace and correct everything. Also when you refer to yourself as "I" make sure it is always in "CAPS" . I have seen a lot of people write like this and it is definitely wrong. I work with engineers who are a lot
smarter than I am so I have to work on my speech, grammer, and spelling all the time. Just practice, practice, practice. It will do you a lot of good. I draw parts on a computer in a 3D modelling program that was difficult to learn but I did it! You can do anything if you try! Good luck to if you take a transit exam.
(Hope I don't have any errors in this post, but there are probably
some spelling errors- I don't have spell check in this program!}
Chuck Greene
Gee Hank, you're right. I have NEVER taken a NYS Regents Exam in any subject, although I DO have a Regents Diploma. I am also a graduate of the CUNY system, with a 3.98 GPA. Unfortunately, none of that makes a difference to Transit, where I work because I like what I do - unlike some of my classmates from school, who work where they do because it was expected of them. We all make the same kind of money, but I'm happier at work and home, so I must be better off than they are. If education level and ability are that important to you, that you can get as nasty as this thread lets on, maybe you should find a board more in keeping with that to let your thoughts be known. Any responses to this, please E-mail me privately - this particular thread should not be here.
Alex
I'll post it here, whether it belongs or not, because I feel you've made a public accusation and I must defend myself...
En Garde! :)
My point is, that with a poor mastery of english, a person would have a hard time finding a job, no matter who with. How can you pass a civil service exam if you can't read or understand the question? How would you fill out an incident report if you can't use complete sentences and proper tense of verbs?
I didn't get a Regents diploma, I spent 4.5 years in high school (I cut a lot to ride the subway as a freshman, something I've noted here many a time, never went to gym, failed the first math sequence 3 times(and the SQ1 Regents 3 times before I passed it), and the fifth sequence twice (graduated without it), I dropped out of college after 5 years with a GPA of 2.79 (by no means the gold star you've got, but not bad; I got bored, and I couldn't pass economics)). So by no means am I an angel. But I believe a mastery of the english language is something you cannot live without in the US, and there is truly no excuse for not mastering it, ESPECIALLY if it is your native tongue. There's every reason to excuse spelling and bad typing (what I like to call 'fat fingers'), but I can't stand reading some of the posts here, and I enjoy using this board very much; I try to hold my tongue when it comes to the poor grammar. I learn, and contribute here just as much as everyone else.
And out of curiosity (you can send this in an email) how'd you get a Regents diploma without taking them?
-Hank
PS-As a freshman, I went to Brooklyn Technical High School, so you can see how I managed to screw myself. I transfered to Curtis High School as a repeating freshman, went to summer school voluntarily (as opposed to being forced by a parent or school authority) for 3 years to make up 6 months. It was all those gym classes I cut that kept me an additional 6.
-Hank
I have to say that I'm really shocked at this entire thread. If the man says grammar does not come easily to him, I believe him. If for some reason I doubted him, I would keep it to myself. There's no reason to attack someone for a disability they may not have any control over. He claims that this is the case, and I find it offensive that anyone here would question him.
I'm rather disillusioned about this entire board to see this kind of snobbery. I admit that, before this thread, I did not think much of Meaney's postings, based on his grammar. But now he has declared his disability, and that's good enough for me.
It seems to me that because his grammar has not magically improved for him to defend himself, some people here still insist on believing that he must be an idiot. He has even had his education and intelligence questioned outright, and responded. He should not have has to answer these questions. Had anyone else on this board been questioned in that way, I cannot imagine the flame that would have most likely resulted. I know that I would be extremely offended if someone questioned my intelligence. That's simply extreme disrespect, in my opinion.
I don't understand why anyone questions that Meaney is an intelligent person with a grammar disability. I am in my third year of college, and I have two close friends who have similar disabilities. They both happen to by in my fraternity, and my major. I can attest to their intelligence and skill, and both of them create web applications with Oracle back-ends that would make your head spin.
One creates the software that runs another local university; the other works with me at a large insurance company and creates database-driven intranet applications used by over 9000 employees. The second also just accepted another internship making over $18/hr doing similar work, starting in the fall. That's a hell of a lot of money for a college internship. He is doing just fine, despite his grammar problem.
They are also more focused academically than myself, and they both have good GPAs - over 3.5 in the first case, and 3.4 for the other. My first friend is dyslexic, which explains his difficulties, but my second friend has a more generalized grammar problem. He tries very hard, but does not read very fast, and his grammar is not as good as most.
Both of these men probably write better than Meaney, on average, but they also have the advantage of more education. My point is that grammar is not something that comes easily to everyone. I don't think anyone would deny that some people are simply not very good at math. So then why can't someone have problems with grammar?
English is not a very easy language to master. In fact, it is one of the most difficult. Ask anyone who speaks Spanish as first language and has learned English. They will tell you that English makes no sense - there are more exceptions than rules!
Finally, I would like to point out that this is a casual discussion board. Each post is not supposed to be a thought-out essay on the given topic. I do not have my friends read over what I write before I hit the Post Message button, the way I have them read over my papers for class before I turn them in. Some of us take email and bulletin boards very seriously, others see them as just as casual as talking to someone on the street, and I think there's room for both here.
Meaney's disability is probably accentuated by the fact that messages here are usually quick and conversational. I think most of us write better when we take our time and re-read what we write, but that is rarely done here, and that's just the way it should be.
So, for God's sake, can we just keep talking about subways, and make the effort to look at *what* people are saying, not *how* they say it??
PS: Thanks for reading this. Sorry it's so long - this really got me going, obviously.
Hillside Av. extension plan
After 179st. these will be the new stations.
188st.
197st.
Frances Lewis Blvd.
212st.
Springfield Blvd.
Wenchester Blvd.
Cross Island Pkwy.
Little Neck Pkwy.
After Little Neck Pkwy. it will become a 2 level storage tracks like
after 179 st.
Please Comment
How are you going to pay for this?
MIKE who responded to Kris' posting on a Hillside extesion and where
the money will come from, same place where the money will come from to fund the completion of the Second Avenue subway line,chose one;
1) Sale of cemetary plots on the moon
In the not so distant future, there will be colonies on the moon. Do you think that everybody that dies will be shipped back to Earth? Where did the money come from for the original IRT? the IND? all the railroads? interstates? There is plenty of money, were just spending it in the wrong place.
If Hillary Clinton could guarantee that her husband would force Congress to come up with the $$$$ she'd get my vote, even though I can't stand that woman. LOL
Very good idea, Kris. However, you forgot to include the express stations.
A two track line would suffice, not to mention being cheaper to build. The 179th st station could be the new starting point for the Queens Blvd. local trains.
I like your idea, that was part of the original 1939 proposal. However, I would change it so that east of Springfield Blvd., the line would go slightly northward under Union Turnpike and end at Long Island Jewish Hospital. I don't believe either your idea or mine will happen in our grandchildren'd lifetimes.
Well, you can call me overoptimistic, but the fact is that things change. In the future, the area could change, NIMBYism here could be dead or dead totally. I believe that most things work in cycles and in the future things would come around and then back. Also, things could be cheaper, the whole thing could cost a nickel a mile.
Unfortunately, you have included too many stations for a modern extension as the stations would be close together. having said that, your plan will never become reality for 3 reasons.
N.I.M.B.Y.
N.I.M.B.Y.
N.I.M.B.Y.
Showoff:):):)
EXPRESS STOPS: Springfield Boulevard, Little Neck Parkway.
Add the nomenclature "Creedmoor" beneath Winchester Blvd (like Grand Avenue-Newtown).
Cross Island Parkway - call it "Commonwealth Boulevard".
Add a locals-only stop at 263rd Street with turnarounds/layups beyond (like the old Parsons Blvd-169th Street setup was)
The tile colors and design should be traditional IND (complete with white-on-black captions), and should follow the regular pattern, with the express station being darker than the local and the locals lightening in shade towards the next express station. All should have black borders. The first group should be a purple group (179th Street was purple originally), Springfield and the following local stops should be blue (or perhaps teal), and the last stops green (not the light green at 71-Continental).
Otherwise, a very workable proposal.
Wayne
Hillside Av. extension plan
After 179st. these will be the new stations.
188st.
197st.
Frances Lewis Blvd.
212st.
Springfield Blvd.
Wenchester Blvd.
Cross Island Pkwy.
Little Neck Pkwy.
After Little Neck Pkwy. it will become a 2 level storage tracks like
after 179 st.
Please Comment
You decide what will be express and local stations.
In the NY Times Friday July 30, page 1 and continues on B6, is a article about the LIRR saying it is the busiest but far from the best. I read part of it and i agree with the NY Times about the LIRR.
After the good folks reads the article, your thoughts on the LIRR is welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
You can find this at this link.
Now city-bound Sub Talkers can get at a glimpse at the incredible luxury LIRR riders get for the highest premium over the local transit fare in the country.
[Now city-bound Sub Talkers can get at a glimpse at the incredible luxury LIRR riders get for the highest premium over the local transit fare in the country.]
Yep, I'm really pleased that I get such a terrific value for my $214 each month .... If conditions on the subways were even a tenth as bad as on the LIRR, there'd be daily protest marches at NYCT headquarters. But Long Island riders have that "whip-me-again-Master" sheeplike attitude, and nothing gets done.
Don't be too certain - there's a backlash building over the LIRR. With the HOV lanes on the LIE comming up, etc, I give them 1 - 3 years before their ridership drops off the face of the earth. Here's my list of gripes:
1) 2 years late, there is still no dual mode service.
2) They lied about it comming to the Oyster Bay line - it isn't
3) The track work, in general, is a joke
4) The signal system is in need of major upgrades - it breaks every time it rains
5) The M-1s should have been replaced 3 years ago
6) The LIRR has been getting slower over the years - 45 min to Port Washington (18 miles) is pathetic. Even worse, the express is JUST AS SLOW
7) The half assed high level platforms on the Oyster Bay line - still unfinished - and they screwed the one at the end of the line up - notice the plywood extension at one end.
8) The lack of A/C on most cars.
9) The lack of on time performance.
10) The canned excuses from the crews (signal problem, police investigation, equipment trouble, brake trouble, stuck train)
11) Prendergast. Has anyone told him the whole world knows he knows he's lying through his teeth about everything?
12) The inability of the LIRR to keep cars clean.
13) The obnoxiously rude crews.
14) The damm HVAC system on the M-1s - it sounds like a hairdryer being held in your ear.
15) 6 workers doing the work of 2
Have I missed anything here?
Oh yes - the multitudes of short trains this year.
[ 2) They lied about it comming to the Oyster Bay line - it isn't ]
Where did you get this info from?
Do the math - 23 DMs, 2 per train. That's 11 dual mode trains total. Between Montauk, and Port Jeff, and Greenport, and OB, that's not enough. And that's assuming these suckers actually work - I'm not holding my breath on that. The LIRR still hasn't finshed the OB yard, and most of the trains are still the old junk - the Oyster Bay line historically gets the lousey equipment - it was the last holdout for steam, and it always got the worst of the old fleet.
Not to dispute Phils logic, but I think it's more obvious than that. The LIRR is installing a 3rd track just west of Mineola. It's clear from an operational standpoint that the sole purpose of this track, at least in the short term, will be for storing and staging OB trains, using Mineola as the principal connecting point for the branch. I think the next step for the LIRR on the OB branch will be experimenting with deisel MU cars.
DMU on the OB would be fun - though effectively the death sentance. It would at least give us a few years of variety in equipment. Uh oh, my cat just barfed on the floor. Interestingly, the third track is apparently getting third rail.
Ok - pop quiz - if DMUs hit the OB line - will it be the first use of them on the LIRR? If not - where were they used first?
The LIRR had a pair of Budd RDC's. RDC-1 #3101 and RDC-2 #3121.
They were originally used as the "East Ender" trains, between Babylon and points east. They spent most of their life as the Babylon-Patchogue shuttle (weekdays) and they'd go "into town" (Jamaica) on the weekends, and often could be seen working Oyster Bay.
Their final assignment, until the ill-fated wreck in 10/67, was the Greenport train. The wreck in question: the train hit a mobile cement mixer truck at an unprotected crossing in Holtsville, killing the train's engineer.
The wrecked RDC-1 and the unwrecked RDC-2 were traded to the B&O for their observation car "Nappanee". The RDC-2 survived into the MARC commuter train days as #9921.
I think you have named just about everything wrong with the LIRR. Can anyone think of anything good about it????
[ I think you have named just about everything wrong with the LIRR. Can
anyone think of anything good about it???? ]
It gets me to and from work, +- 1hr, with about 99% reliability.
It is also more predictable than driving, which isn't saying much, since driving from where I work (union square) to where I live (roslyn) during the evening rush hour takes anywhere from 45 mins to about 2.5 hrs. Of course, the best I can really hope for with the NYCT/LIRR commute is about 70mins, iff there are no delays.
I'd be interested in knowing how the LIRR travel times have changed over the years. I wouldn't be surprised if they offered faster service on the O.B. line when #35 was pulling the trains.
My September 18, 1938 timetable shows a running time between Mileola and Oyster Bay of 32-38 minutes for trains that stopped at all intermediate stations except Mill Neck, which was abandoned a few years ago. Looking at today's schedule, it's 40-44 minutes.
[I think you have named just about everything wrong with the LIRR. Can anyone think of anything good about it????]
No.
Train 2772. I've started riding this train almost daily, even leaving work late to avoid the train before it. I switched from the Ronkonkoma Branch because of the signal/trackwork and lucked out. This train leaves 18 minutes later than my regular train and gets me home at the same time, is always on time, the crew is exremely pleasant and is always new bi-levels.
<<attitude, and nothing gets done. >>>
What CAN be done? Boycott the trains and jam the LIE even more than it is? I wish we could do something...
LIRR riders are kind of where NYC Transit riders were during the 50s, when the TA got serious about service cuts and deferred maintenance. There's kind of an air of "what can you do?" except whine, moan and complain.
Every now and then after some egregious failure, the State will sacrifice an LIRR President. But instead of throwing him into a volcano or other crowd pleasing spectacle, he typically goes to work for another agency or industry business, making even more money for his Big Railroad Experience.
In a different direction though, I will actually throw the LIRR a compliment--they do want to run their railroad and have it compete with highway competition but this reflects more in their forward planning--not in their day-to-day operations.
[What CAN be done? Boycott the trains and jam the LIE even more than it is? I wish we could do something...]
There truly aren't a lot of options given the crowding on the LIE and the cost of parking in Manhattan. Express buses might be one partial solution. Note that the LIRR already has a small amount of competition from buses - the Hampton Jitney has skimmed off many weekend riders, and some people in western parts of Nassau take LI Bus to subway stops in Queens. Instituting express buses on a much larger scale might scare some sense into LIRR management. But there's no obvious place for a Manhattan terminal - the PABT is not easily accessable from the east - and LIE traffic is of course an issue. Even so, the option shouldn't be discarded without careful consideration.
The LIRR is a unique hybrid -- a money losing operation with access to the public purse -- and a right to strike. I don't see any improvement without a change in organization. That would require a change in union organization, and aren't there a bunch of unions each competing to screw things up the most?
Of course, LIRR to GCT would help. The real good deal would be the suburbs get LIRR to GCT and Metro North to Penn, and we get the 2nd Ave subway and associated connections. I'd pay my share.
MN to Penn is Easy, Hudson and New Haven line trains can continue like Amtrak, and the Harlem Line can go via the connection (forget what it's called, not Oak Point) that connects to the Harlem at the same place where it connects to the Hudson. Then it goes down the New Haven.
Perhaps this is slightly off-topic. I tried to read the New York Times story on their website, and they demanded my life history before letting me access it. I refused to supply them an e-mail address, presumably for their marketing department. Who do they think they are? I can buy the printed Times without that fuss. Other newspapers provide unfettered access to their sites. (Check the Miami Herald at www.herald.com/ for transit tax election results.)
Many newspapers want you to do some kind of registration to get free access. I'm registered at The Times and with a cookie installed on my computer, I get free access, and that includes most of their print content at no charge.
I haven't found any negative result of their having my email address for the last couple of years.
[re no negative consequences of registering with the Times]
Same here. I registered with the Times about a year ago, using a Prodigy Classic e-mail address (to disappear when Prodigy Classic is phased out at the end of September) that I very seldom use otherwise. I've gotten no spam to speak of on that address.
I have had no trouble with info given the NYT showing up as spam or anything else. One or two announcements in two plus years, and those were announcing new web site features.
They ask for your email address, because that's how password and account info is delivered to you (ie, if you forget your acct. ID and/or password). The family info will be asked of you as a security check, to be sure that it is YOU that is asking for password or account info.
I just slipped "nospam" into my email address. works like a charm.
Maybe the conversion of the Port Washington Line, the Atlantic Branch, and the Springfield Garden Line to subway service, as some proposals have been made, wouldn't be so bad. Subway service couldn't be much worse?
And people complain about the subways? Obviously,
there is no possible excuse for some of these
conditions.The LIRR: Busiest,
But Far From Best.
Makes one appreciate Metra.
(Metra is the Chicago are commuter railroad agency).
-- Ed Sachs
I thought the article was reasonably fair, tepid, even.
The truth is, that, yes, they have a complicated system, with it's share of operational difficulties. _But_ other organizations have similar situations, and deal with it much better. NYCT is larger and more complicated than the LIRR, and yet beats the LIRR hands down in equipment maintenance, customer service, and operational effeciency.
NYCT reacts very quickly to situations that can cause delays, and crews usually give good announcements about the nature of the delay. NYCT has many more cars than the LIRR, and many of them are older, yet their MDBF is much higher. Not only that, but in the A/C situation, cars are not running around hot all the time.
As far as the A/C is concerned, one conductor told me that most of the outages aren't even mechanical failure--the A/C compressors just need to be recharged.
What can I say. The railroad was even more dismal several years ago. A turning point was when the LIRR decided that, in the event of more than a minor amount of snow they would simply shut down, to protect the equipment. This led to such an outcry that it's actually been unhill from there.
"As far as the A/C is concerned, one conductor told me that most of the outages aren't even mechanical failure--the A/C compressors just need to be recharged."
Whoa, that's a totally irrisponsible statement for anyone to make. In a sealed system, refrigerant is not consumed. It is repeatedly compressed to a liquid and then boils back to a gas, over and over again. The total volume of refrigerant should remain constant. if refrigerant is lost it is due to mechanical failure whether it be a leaking pipe, leaking compressor or leaking valve.
It might interest you to know that every time freon 22 is put into a system, the quantity of freon & vehicle number must be permanently recorded for the EPA. If over the course of a summer you put 80 or 90 or even more LBS of freon into a particular car, you'd have a very rough time convincing the feds that the car didn't have a mechanical defect.
< . The total volume of refrigerant should remain constant. if refrigerant is lost it is due to mechanical failure whether it be a leaking pipe, leaking compressor or leaking valve.
Assuming the failure is due to a loss of refrigerant, and the loss is due to a mechanical cause, it still evaluates to the same issue: why are there so many leaking cars and why is taking so long to investigate and repair them?
>Assuming the failure is due to a loss of refrigerant, and the loss is
>due to a mechanical cause, it still evaluates to the same
>issue: why are there so many leaking cars and why is taking so long
>to investigate and repair them?
Why is it happening? Probbly a design defect - my guess is vibrations from somewhere are killing a pipe / joint and causing the leak. The stuff certainly operates under high enough pressures.
Why hasn't it been fixed or detected? Incompetence, bad management. Does the LIRR ever look at all their A/C failures, to see if they can find weak / suspect parts of them system, and attack / modify those? I wouldn't be surprised if there's one or two components on those cars that always do the system in.
Why is home AC more reliable? My guess - lack of vibration. Or more exactly, vibration at only a few frequencies. Since the compressor and fans spin at known rates, they create known frequencies. Don't let stuff reasonate that those frequencies, and you're ok. On a train, that's harder because of a great range frequencies appearing - due to the train speed (flat wheels create vibrations!).
Interestingly, Pratt & Whittney used to have tubing break off of jet engines while shipping them to Boeing. It turned out that as they were being moved by train, the frequencies being created by the train's movement fell right into the reasonant frequencies of a number of pieces of tubing on the engines. The tubes started wiggling, and broke as a result. The answer was to ship the engine with the final pieces that were breaking unattached, and attaching them to the engine at Boeing.
IIRC, FoMoCo had the same problem back in the late '70s or early '80s with Lincolns - but only on ones travelling one specific route in the Pacific Northwest. Their solution was to reroute the trains via a more southerly route or across Canada.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess the LIRR and the TA are part of the same organization after all. Travel times are slower than 40 years ago, and all of the cars are pushing 30 years old? That sounds like the BMT southern division!
Yessiree, that TA/MTA sure ran out of gas. To think they elevated the Babylon Branch and build Chryste St and bought a bunch of cars. Since then, they've considered it an accomplishment to bring the systems back from the brink every few years.
My question for LIRR riders is, when is the next strike scheduled for?
>My question for LIRR riders is, when is the next strike scheduled for?
Who knows, but notice how THOSE are always on time?
Did some reasearch last night toward having and subway & B-U-S field trip. Last night would have been an ideal night as it cooled down toward sunset. Here's what I propose with a few options, so comments are welcome:
- Start at 360 Jay Street(the TA bldg) why, we need to gather at some point on the "A", so Jay seems as good as any. There are a number of shops & eateries in the area for those that can get there early.
- Proceed to Far Rockaway. Now for our first three options: The subway purests will likely take the A back to Broad Channel, then the rush hour A to Rockaway Park. Option two takes the LIRR Far Rockaway line back home. But I suggest our first B-U-S segment. We'll board the N33 for a nice ride to Long Beach (runs every 30 minutes rush hour & hourly thereafter, so I need to do a little more research here).
- At Long Beach more options: You can grab the LIRR, but I opt for a 6 short block ride on City of LB coach (or walk) to Boardwalk down National.
- At Boardwalk Doug, if he can get his bike on the N33, will disapear down the Boardwalk as they have a dedicated bikeway (between the white lines), plus a dedicated runners-way outside of that and a little more space for the rest of us. Volley ball nets will be up & life guards are still on duty if you want to froklic in the surf. I'll head for Seymore's and a soft ice cream (they also have Pizza, Sea Food & a bar ... it's a compartment store arrangement). Next we'll have to walk back to Park & LIRR station, because the Long Beach bus only goes East here.
- Take the N15, another B-U-S. It goes up Long Beach Road. Since I suggest we do this on a Tuesday night, we'll stop at Nathan's because it's motorcycle night. There'll be three wheelers, side cars & lots of rum rum rum !
- We complete this summer night delight via the N15 at Rockville Center where the LIRR will be waiting. Service is about every half hour at quarter to & quarter after. I think the fare is about $4, but I'll have to do some more reasearch.
Mr t__:^)
Better to stop at Peter's Clam Bar in Island Park. Or, you could all
come to my house in Lawrence!
Arron, You're right Pete's Clam bar is a great place & always packed with folks sitting on stools on the out side, but I didn't want to include too many stops or we would all have call in sick the next day.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston - neat idea! As you know this is also my home territory - Peter's or Nathan's would be ideal eating locations. Keep me posted. I would try to meet the group at Jay Street - but worst case I could hook up at Long Beach if I can't leave work (and you know what that means!) at a reasonable hour.
You may have been wondering what happened to this Field Trip. Well I've been waiting for the weather to improve, less humidity. It seems that the traffic & weather (Hi Todd) are going to hold thru mid next week so the tenitive plan is for TUESDAY AUGUST 10th.
Here's a repeat of the plan:
- Gather at 370 Jay Street at 6 PM (that's the TA bldg at Jay Street on the A/C). The entrance is within the bldg. It has center island platforms, so just wait at the head end or on the street until just before 6. I plan to try to get their early & grab a bit at one of the Fast Food joints.
- My co-host, Peggy Darlington, has suggested a few stops along the express route that have something interesting to see, e.g. Nostrand, Euclid, Grant, Howard Beach, Broad Channel.
- We'll take the A to Far Rockaway. There you can catch the LIRR back home or reverse to Broad Channel for the shuttle to Rockaway Park, B-U-T we'll be taking LI Bus N33. It's schudeled every 1/2 hour at this time, so we'll look for 6:45 or 7:20 (after 8:20 it goes to hourly service). If we miss a bus we'll walk the route to the beach, or at least Seagirt Blvd.
- The N33 will drop us off at the Long Beach depot where we can catch a City of Long Beach bus or walk the 6 short blocks down National to the Boardwalk. We'll have to walk back to the depot because the bus only goes East in a big loop.
- The N15 will be waiting to take us up Long Beach Road. Some may want to catch the LIRR here, but not us, were going to Nathan's because it's Motorcycle Night (3 wheelers, side cars & lots of folks in leather jackets & due rags). If you haven't been there you're in for a treat !
- Back on the N15 we continue North to Rockville Centre. At Merrick Road you can catch the N4 West it'll bring you to Archer Avenue in Jamaica where the E/J/Z is waiting OR stay on the N15 and catch the LIRR for a nice above ground view of the city at night.
Fare: Bring a "Fun Pass" because this is going to be that, i.e. subway & LI Bus take MetroCards. The LIRR trip is about $4 & I'm not sure of the City of Long Beach ... will probally find out tonight.
Reservations: It would be helpful to have some idea of how many are comming while we're standing at Jay Street and it's close to 6 PM, so please post to this threat if you comming. Andy said he might have to join us at Long Beach, if so I hope he brings the wife & kids. A good place might be at Seymore's, which is on the Boardwalk. That would be better then at King David, because they might try to wheel you inside ... time to go to bed sonny (it's one of those "adult facilities").
Mr t__:^)
I'll do my best to bring you good weather, Mr. T. Wish I could join you...
Thurston, you know I'll be there, sans the peddle power.
Doug aka BMTman
I will probably attend. If so, Doug, I'll bring along a copy of the LIRR Atlantic Ave. Branch track maps that I have. Otherwise send me an email and we'll work something out.
Thurston, if I attend, I will be coming from Penn Station. What subway stop do I get off for 379 Jay St.?
Bob, take the A or C train to Brooklyn and the second stop is Jay Street station.
Please do bring along those Atlantic Ave. track plans. Much appreciate your offer. I will respond in kind with a copy of that 1916 Atlantic Ave. Improvement Association document that mentioned all the grade-elimination work that was to be done on the line (which is the Flatush branches current status).
See you there.
Doug aka BMTman
I'll defineately am going to go. I got my camera fixed and looking to take some pictures.
what is the estimated time of finshing the trip
Oh I don't know, but it will be a long trip considering we'll go to the Boardwalk on Long Beach and spend some time their also to appreciate the motorcycles at Nathan's you have to walk the parking lot and inspect each one then stay for a while just to HEAR them comming and going. Then the trip back to Manhattan is about 45 min.
That's why I wasn't planning too many stops on the IND. Peggy says their are some rather unique things to see in a few stations on the way so I don't mind a few quick look sees on the way. My goal is to rush out to Far Rockaway and then start enjoying a summer evening at the beach (I do this frequently at Long Beach) riding subways & buses will make it even more enjoyable. I'm realy looking forward to the bus ride from Far Rockaway to Long Beach over the bridge. The West end of LB is a throw back to the 60's so we'll see a few hippy types. My daughter's friend Pete is one who lives there, long hair and everything.
P.S. If time is a problem for anyone thinking about comming there are two points where you can catch the LIRR early and shoot back to Manhattan (at Far Rockaway & at Long Beach).
Mr t__:^)
Last night I was trying to get my daughter to join our trip (my grandson loves trains too). The subject of Nathan's & Tues. night came up ... she said "Dad, the motorcycles don't come their anymore since that stabbing incident".
Now motorcycles have been comming their for generations. Bikers from all the boroughs know of it, but sure enough I spoke to someone there and it true. That's realy too bad.
In any case our trip is still on, we just won't have the cherry on to of the desert. We could have switched to Wed., as the old cars still come, but it's too late for that AND there's a better old car night, for any one who's interested, on Friday on LIRR Babylon line at the Bellmore Station (might be Merrick, but I'm pritty sure it's Bellmore)
So, looking forward to seeing you all at Jay Street on the A at 6 PM.
Mr t__:^)
Had the horrible experience the other day on a Red Line train. To herald the closing of the doors, a two chime sounded, sounding very much like Big Ben. Also, station announcements were automated and other messages such as "Do not lean on the doors" were interspersed.
Is that what we can look forward to with the new trains in NYC?
When you say the announcment are automated are they similar to the M4 cars in Philly. They are very annoying those cars. What cars have the automated announcements in Chicago? Do they all?
Good Lord - I hope not!
Yo're kidding! That means no more entertaining annuncements. It will probably make Motorman Wally happy.
Hey HoDar, what is the offical HoDar time? When will we get to the Uptown Union Station? And what is the "World's Safest Form of Transportation?"
There is a lady who rides Run #810 on the Red Line who is looking for you!
Jim K.
Chicago
Don't forget Berwyn/EdgewaterBeach Hotel.
The safest form of transportation is "pipeline" but most people do not like traveling that way.
I still remember when the station signs at Berwyn actually said, "Berwyn-Edgewater Beach." I also remember seeing that hotel not long before it closed, and later saw it while it was being demolished. It took more than a year to tear it down; they could have done it in less than a minute with explosives. My aunt still remembers my comment about how they should just drop a bomb on that hotel....
Older maps identified that station simply as "Edgewater Beach."
BTW, were those 2600-series cars with the chimes? They're being reworked with full-width cabs, so maybe they're killing two birds with one stone.
Yes, I think they could have been 2600-series, as I looked for the little signs on the wall outside the motorman's cab which said when the cars were placed in service and at which shop they are overhauled. The signs were no longer there.
We here in NYC have had the two-tone door chime since 1972, when the R44 cars were the first to use it (an experimental car known as "Bluebird" had door chimes too back in the 30s and 40s). Since then, every car has had the two-tone "ding dong" to herald the closing of the doors: R44, R46, R62, R62A, R68, R68A, R130 and R131 all have door chimes. So do the PATH cars, even the older ones, which are retrofits (it came installed on the 1986 PA-4).
In Washington DC, they have announcements "Doors Opening", "Doors Closing" and "Please stand clear of the doors".
Wayne
Yeah, we have the "ding dong" when the door closes and the "ding dongs" trying to keep the doors from closing :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm thinking that the doors should have more force and the ends that close together should be made of jagged metal to hurt the ding-dongs.
Maybe the doors should open and close faster the way they did on the R-10s.
This is all news to me, I have not seen any bulletins at
work on it.(I am employed as a Motorman/operator for the
CTA). But than again this won't be this first time I heard
about something concerning my job outside my job,
especially during contract negotiations I often find out
infornation on it in the Chicago newspapers. Charles do
you or any body else who rides the Red
Line(Howard-DanRyan) recall the car number. Although I am
a transit purist who dispises such so-called progress like
OPTO, I beleive that the automated announcements and the
chimes are a good idea. A lot of my co-wokers even myself
at times included mumble on the pa. Some of my co-workers
can barely speak English. Hopefully these automated
announcements will be more audible for the passengers.
No luck on the car number, sorry. I will let you know if I see it again.
Thanks
You're kidding, right????
The new renovated cars have automated announcements and chimes, no way! The CTA would surely make a big deal about that. They didn't mention any of it in the description of what was going to be done to the cars.
I know that the new hadicapped accessible cars on Metra here in Chicago have chimes and automated announcements that say something like, Please stand clear of the doors they are closing.
I personally hope that you are correct about the announcements and wrong about the chimes. They could be really annoying, but on the other hand, a person who barely knows english shouldn't be announcing the stations.
BJ
I rode both the Blue and Red Lines just yesterday, and there were no chimes or recorded announcements on any train I rode. Maybe the train operators just SOUND like a recording? (^:
No, the chimes were there. As a matter of fact, when I boarded and heard the chimes, I thought they were from a nearby church maybe?
Some of our CTA friends might be able to check. I boarded a Ravenswood train in the Loop at about 1230 on Tuesday afternoon. Rode it up to Belmont and jumped across to a Red Line train.
The annoying thing about the chimes certainly came when doors had to be opened and closed more than once at a station.
The chimes are not at all annoying, they've had them in New York for 27 years and they make a pleasant sound, as opposed to the buzzers on the R-110. PATH also has chimes. You'll get used to them.
They're pleasant as long as they're in tune with each other. If not, it's enough to shake, rattle, and roll your fillings loose.
BTW, Charles, where do you get off on the Red Line? My aunt lives a block south of Bryn Mawr. There's a church there, St. Ita's, which rings its chimes (bells) every hour.
I was just looking at my screensaver which happens to be a subway map of Brooklyn and was struck by the fact that there are no subways or elevated trains of any kind in Sheepshead Bay, East Flatbush, most of Carnarsie, and the area they call the Flatlands. Is their a reason for this? Some areas are overlapped with subways but these areas are bare.
The currentg Canarsie line used to continue south from it's present terminal, all the way to Canarsie Pier. This entire section was at grade level, and was originally built as a steam railway, for people traveling to the Rockaways.
Later, it was served by BRT Gate cars, and passengers used the traps and steps (talked about in another post) to board and discharge from the trains.
Eventually, the line was closed, and the present B-42 bus "replaced" the El car service, hence the current free transfer, which is less important now in the days of metrocard, but made a one-fare commute to/from anywhere in Canarsie.
The Canarsie line was cut back to Rockaway Parkway when third rail was installed, with trolley cars operating over the ground level ROW the rest of the way to Canarsie. Older subway maps show this arrangement, including my 1948 Hagstrom's maps. The B-42 bus transfer was implemented when trolley service ended.
Much of this area was swamp land until the 1950s - 1960s, when it was drained and filled and was built up. Unfortunately, by that time, it was well past the era of subway construction.
-- Ed Sachs
Well, had the IND Second System been built, or the 1939 Board of Transportation Plan been adopted or the 1968 MTA Program For Action been implemented, you would have seen a Utica Ave subway to Ave U (and the 1939 plan had it going to Floyd Bennett Field), an extension of the IRT Nostrand Avenue Branch to Sheepshead Bay, a Ft Hamilton Pkwy Line to about 86th ST with a connecting branch to Staten Island at 68th St, and an IND Extension to Voorhies Ave, also Sheepshead Bay. The lines that exist now were built privately with the purpose of getting people to hotels on the seashore. Flatlands and Canarsie weren't destinations of many people so there never was the need for lines until much later on.
--Mark
Today (Friday) the NY Times had a big cover story on how miserable the LIRR is, with breakdowns, hot cars, filth, etc. Anyone read it and have any comment?
Kevin Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, Kevin,
A thread's started under "The LIRR: Busiest, But Far From Best"
Thanks, I hadn't seen it when I made that post.
Yes, we have -- look for threads with "LIRR- Busiest but far from best" as subject.
I was thinking -- we can all agree that there are serious problems on the LIRR. What can practically be done to alleviate them. Here's some suggestions. These all cost money, but the alternative is to lose more passengers to roads, or have more people just leave for a more amenable locale. _that_ would really cost the state money.
Anyways, there's some short term and long term things to do:
1) Get on top of the A/C issue. It's got to be the #1 hot spot (pardon the pun) for commuter complaints, and I can't believe that hiring a couple of dozen techs and providing them with the proper equipment and supplies can't get the problem under control, at least temporarily.
2) Get on top of the garbage issue in two ways. (a) provide some kind of cleaning services as trains are turned around. and (b) bolster the current clean-up-after-yourselves-you-pigs advertising campaign with more ads, and some _enforcement_!. It's not impossible to catch people in the act. I bet if you did, and people saw it, you'd get a car full of applause, and it would discourage the current pigginess.
3) Get on top of Customer Service issues, including announcements, and a general better attitude.
In the longer run, there needs to be a lot of change in corporate culture, starting at the top. You basically need management to give a crap, and it seems fairly obvious that current management does not. The entire RR has been neglected for years, from the deferred maintenance on the M1s, to the deferred decision-making on the push-pulls, etc. The new push-pull equipment is another stupid management decision. I don't know what they were thinking -- maybe they wanted to impress their fellow RR management teams with their fancy new equipment, but I think their customers would have been happier with the same push-pull equipment Metro-North and NJT has, especially since it would have been available more than 2 years ago, and would have come with the bugs already worked out.
Aside from the high cost, and the fact that they don't fit into most of their western terminals (Flatbush Ave and GCT), I don't see how they're going to be able to maintain these things. They've already proven themselves inept at maintaining the 1955 technology and the 1970's technology. Introducing hundreds of complicated computer-controlled devices isn't going to make things better.
I have an idea that wouldn't be popular with the current clows there, but could work.
Boston does it. Chicago does it too. So do other states. It works for them, I it might work here.
Outsource the LIRR to a subcontractor like Amtrak, or someone else.
I'm not kidding either.
TriRail in Florida also outsources maintenance to a private concern. I don't necessarilly agree that we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, however.
NYCT has continually resisted outsourcig maintenance although it is done on a small scale there. General Electric has repeatedly proposed that the TA hire them to maintain the SCM controllers approximately 4,400 subway cars.
For small properties, it is financially responsible to go the private maintenance route since building and staffing maintenance facilities is very costly. However, for larger properties,, this is unwise. What the LIRR needs is a more dedicated management core who can built a comitted team, focused on turning things around. The TA did it in the Division of Car Equipment. So can the LIRR if they get rid of the carpetbaggers (No reference to the first lady).
[What the LIRR needs is a more dedicated management core who can built a comitted team, focused on turning things around. The TA did it in the Division of Car Equipment. So can the LIRR if they get rid of the
carpetbaggers (No reference to the first lady).]
If there ever were a new management team (when pigs fly), all of the members should be required to ride the trains on a regular basis. I was annoyed no end when the article said that Prendergast had stopped riding the train when he moved to Staten Island for "personal reasons." What the (deleted) is that supposed to mean??
It would also be nice if LIRR employees took care of their trains. As I was riding from Mineola to Penn yesterday afternoon, there were three off-duty conductors in the head car. They were in street clothes, but I could tell they were conductors (or ass't. trainmen) from their (too loud) conversation. They were drinking beer in big styro cups. When they were done with the cups, they left them on the floor. Come on guys (and gals, of which one of them was)... no wonder the trains are filty -- the passengers are following your example!
That would be considered disgraceful at any other commuter railroad. As for the the LIRR, that's considered normal.
I am thoroughly convinced that riding the trains goes a long way to showing one's comittment to the improvement of the system. When I ride, I make sure that the crew knows I'm aboard. I ask a lot of questions and listen too. I try to learn where the problems are and also try to leave them with some useful info too. Most importantly, I see the product we are producing, first hand. I ake it a point to ride every day.
Yeah, well YOU did not move to Staten Island for 'personal reasons' either. It is all of a piece. When the pols and their cronies are in limos and the upper mgmt the same they will never instill pride in the line workers. In turn , when the train service personnel s--t in their own nests, ('leaving styrofoam beer cups on the floor of the train') the whole system is broken. The sad part is that there are many workers who care, try to do their jobs well and sabotaged both vertically and horizontally by persons who literally need time in a reeducation facility(okay how about retraining). Here in the Bay Area we have huge problems at the SF MUNI Railway(bus, ETB, cable car, and LRV operator. When you ride the bus and the driver has a portable radio tuned to the ball game and is eating a meal while driving you don't feel much respect for s/he.
I know of at least 2 supervisors from NYCT who relocated to MUNI. I know they wouldn't tolerate that kind of stuff here!
Sadly these behaviours reflect both lack of sufficient supervisors on the street and a system wide culture which tolerates them.
The LIRR could probably be improved just by declaring itself "bankrupt" as a railroad, closing for a month, and reopening as a public transit agency staffed by the TWU, as well as by ousourcing.
The problem is the "screw the public" culture that is deeply ingrained in the unions there, combined with clueless management. That attitude is passed down from father to son (working there is such a good deal only relatives get jobs). The workers are convinced that wages and benefits that most Americans would work hard to aspire to are instead something to retaliate against the riding public for. As for management, since most managers are overpaid, most of the people you can get at LIRR salaries are idiots. The TA seems to be interesting enough that it can attract white collar staff at (by yuppie standards) low pay.
Perhaps a radical solution is needed. The advantage of outsourcing is that you get to replace the whole organization, but I for one do not believe it is a panecea. Starting over with a new group under public auspices would probably work as well. And having one union would work better than the many the LIRR has.
Perhaps as a start the M-1's should visit MNCR shops for genuine repair with a chance at a decent MTBF. Sadly however I would expect a replay of the original broken windows on delivery at the paint shops when they were new. When I lived in NY in the late 60's there was a serious car shortage. Mgmt had pulled the usual budget fudge of reducing repairs on the old junk in anticipation of on time perfect new cars. (brilliant-NOT) So as the M-1's arrived late with teething problems--and some were reportedly sabotaged on the property--the morning and afternoon WCBS traffic reports would include long lists of trains annulled for lack of equipment. Rocky came down to the shops to plead with the troops and a Nassau County pol talked of running for governor.
As to the labor question, one might legitimately ask why MTA retains separate organisations when the tasks are essentially identical. After all, the publicity in 1965 in Chicago said the then new Litton Electronic fare control being installed on the IC Electric(now Metra) was supposedly in use on LIRR. There is no valid reason for retaining the mainline RR fantasy at a long distance subway operation. The entire fare collection/staffing setup should be redone. As a side note, I believe any ride on LIRR or MNCR within the five boro's should be simply a swipe on a Metrocard at the same fare as the sub.
>Perhaps as a start the M-1's should visit MNCR shops for genuine
>repair with a chance at a decent MTBF.
Why bother? MN probbly doesn't want to fix the LIRR's problems. Besides, the cars will come back and fall apart again. The M-1, IMHO, is a bad design to begin with - the LIRR isn't making it any better.
I never understood the point of the M-1. They had to raise lots of platforms when they arrived, they're obnoxiously complex, and they never worked well, even when new (doesn't all this sound familiar?)
>Sadly however I
>would expect a replay of the original broken windows on delivery at
>the paint shops when they were new.
Never mind the one set that burned shortly after delivery - making it the shortest lived M-1 in existance.
>When I lived in
>NY in the late 60's there was a serious car shortage. Mgmt had pulled >the usual budget fudge of reducing repairs on the old
>junk in anticipation of on time perfect new cars. (brilliant-NOT)
Looking over #4137 at Seashore - one can see evidence of marginal repairs that were made to it.
>So as the M-1's arrived late with teething problems--and
>some were reportedly sabotaged on the property--the morning and
>afternoon WCBS traffic reports would include long lists of
>trains annulled for lack of equipment.
And yet - the LIRR loaned at least 3 MP-75s to the SIRT around the same time.
>Rocky came down to the shops
>to plead with the troops and a Nassau County pol
>talked of running for governor.
Oh well, so much for Mr. Public Works - though Empire State plaza sure looks nice. Win a few lose a few I guess - hey - is he the same Rockafella who died in an embarresing way?
>As to the labor question, one might legitimately ask why MTA retains >separate organisations when the tasks are essentially
>identical.
Historical reasons - Conjob ^H^H^H rail was running Metro-North till 83 or so. They should merge the two RRs, but I doubt anyone in Westchester would be happy about it.
>After all, the publicity in 1965 in Chicago said the then
>new Litton Electronic fare control being installed on the IC
>Electric(now Metra) was supposedly in use on LIRR.
Electronic fare control??? I'll admit, some conductors surer act like robots, but....
>There is no valid reason for retaining the mainline RR fantasy at a
>long distance subway operation. The entire fare collection/staffing
>setup should be redone. As a side note, I believe any ride on
>LIRR or MNCR within the five boro's should be simply a swipe on a
>Metrocard at the same fare as the sub.
Actually, I couldn't see how a farecard system would work on the LIRR. Retaining conductors is still probbly the best way to go - though dumping ticket agents for better ticket machines, or elimianating tickets on off peak trains (pay on train)
I don't see why the LIRR/Metro North can't go with fare control and eliminate the conductors. You'd have to pay at the non-city stations -- swipe to get on, swipe to get off -- since fare control at Grand Central and Penn would be impractical. If you get off before the city, the out swipe could give you a refund -- otherwise the in-swipe would assume a trip all the way to zone 1.
Having stations manned would make them safer. The MTA claimed the ease of running around the fare control by walking on the tracks was a problem. But commuter rail runs through affluent areas, so it would be easy to collect draconian fines. They, electronic survailance, and a zero tolerance arrest policy should deter fare evasion.
Redoing LIRR stations with fare controls would be a daunting task. Many stations are on the surface with multiple exit stairs. Elevated stations are not configured for a turnstile area. Many lines do not have inbound and outbound tracks in the same way the subway does, so a train at some stations may not always appear on the expected platform, so you would have to provide special crossovers within the control area.
Many LIRR stations are 12 cars long. That's 12 85-foot cars, or over 1000 feet, a lot longer than the longest IND stations at 675 fet or so. If you only have one controls area in a station, there are a lot of people who would have to walk an extra distance just to get on the trains where they're nbow used to using any staircase.
In other words, it would be a lot of work and expense. If a Proof of Payment system were feasible, it would save a lot of aggravation.
You'd have to gate all the open air LIRR/Metro North stations, which would cost multimillions.
Years ago, I remember a sign at the Stillwell Avenue station that directed folks to "Norton's Point" buses.
Does anyone remember this sign?
Can anybody tell me where Norton's Point is?
I'm just curious as I have pretty much covered the subway system and I have a good working knowledge of all five boroughs. But I've never had a chance to find out where Norton's Point is.
Norton's Point is the tip of Sea Gate, at the western end of Coney Island. At one time it was a rather notorious area in an era when much of Coney Island was not exactly family oriented.
A branch of the Culver Line operated all the way to Norton's Point. You can still trace the right-of-way north of Surf Avenue. This service operated first with steam, then L cars, and for a long time with trolleys. This was called the Norton's Point Line.
When buses took over it was initially still the Norton's Point route, but after being renamed 74-Mermaid (and the Sea Gate Shuttle becoming part of the 36-Surf bus) the "Norton's Point Bus" sign continued in use.
Paul's correct.
As a matter of fact if you go far back enough in Coney Island history, the place was more like Las Vegas of recent memory than an amusement park. There was rampant gambling houses, prostitution (to rival Times Square of the 70s!), notorious 'freak shows' and of course famous hotels and their adjacent racetracks.
For better or worse, Coney has come a long way from it's wild, "frontier-like" days.
Doug aka BMTman
A number of the little Coney Island hotels (some still existing, even if they're no longer hotels) hosted prostitutes and their clients. I would be surprised if the trade were 100% dead today.
A hotbed of such activity was the Elephant Hotel, like its counterpart still existing in Margate, NJ. The hotel was near the Sea Beach Palace, and the phrase "going to see the elephant" entered the language as a euphemism for visiting a prostitute, similar to the still extant (?) saying "going to see a man about a dog."
[A hotbed of such activity was the Elephant Hotel, like its counterpart still existing in Margate, NJ. The hotel was near the
Sea Beach Palace, and the phrase "going to see the elephant" entered the language as a euphemism for visiting a prostitute, similar to the still extant (?) saying "going to see a man about a dog."]
Er, I thought that "seeing a man about a dog" had to do with answering the call of nature, rather than _play for pay_ as in the old "elephant" phrase ...
Maybe our understandings are different, language has evolved, or one "call of nature" can substitute for another ;-)
That's true since my brother-in-law uses the phrase "going to see a man about a horse" in reference to the call to nature.
Doug aka BMTman
Umm... I've heard from several different sources (books, PBS documentaries, etc.) that "seeing the elephant" was a phrase from the Civil War era meaning "having experienced actual combat." In other words, someone who had never been in battle "never saw the elephant," while a new soldier headed to battle for the first time was "going to see the elephant." Maybe this phrase was later changed to mean visiting a prostitute, but I'm fairly sure that's how it **started**.
OK. Via the magic of the internet, here's some definitions (you can all say that I'm currently procrastinating any real work):
To 49ers and those who followed, no expression characterized the rush to California better. They announced they were "going to see the elephant," an unusual experience in those days before zoos and wild animal parks. Those returning from the west claimed they had seen the "elephant's tracks" or the "elephant's tail" but not the elephant -- meaning they had seen a hint of the gold but not the riches. Many confessed they'd seen more than enough of the animal and returned home empty handed.
The expression predated the Gold Rush, arising from a tale current when circus parades first featured elephants. A farmer, so the story went, hearing that a circus was in town, loaded his wagon with vegetables for the market there. He had never seen an elephant and which he very much wished to do. On the way to town he encountered the circus parade, led by an elephant. The farmer was thrilled. His horses, however, were terrified. Bolting, they overturned the wagon and ruined the vegetables. "I don't give a hang,"
for I have seen the elephant." For gold rushers, the elephant symbolized both the high cost of their endeavor -- the myriad possibilities for misfortune on the journey or in California -- and, like the farmer's circus elephant, an exotic sight, and unequaled experience, the adventure of a lifetime.
For gold rushers, the elephant symbolized both the high cost of their endeavor -- the myriad possibilities for misfortune on the journey or in California -- and, like the farmer's circus elephant, an exotic sight, and unequaled experience, the adventure of a lifetime.
From "http://geocities.com/Area51/Vault/1157/infomagic-3.htm" (a website about y2k, believe it or not).
"Thanks to the enlightenment of our Arizona legislature, I legally carry a concealed handgun pretty much wherever I go. When close friends ask why I carry a gun, I usually reply "It's in case I see the elephant". Now this is obviously a highly effective technique since, after the introduction of carry permits, there have been fewer incidents with dangerous elephants in our state. But, actually, there is a more serious and darker side to my answer that usually passes over the heads of those to whom I am talking. Back in the days of the old west, cowboys almost never travelled beyond the frontier towns and their entertainment was often brought to them from back east. A rare treat was the arrival of a travelling circus and, particularly, the elephants which seem to have fascinated these simple hardworking men. Over time, the expression "goin' to see the elephant" came to be used whenever someone decided to do something totally different or unusual. In the combat shooting fraternity,
particularly in law enforcement, "seeing the elephant" has now come to mean a close encounter of the deadly kind.
O.K. That's probably enough about elephants. have there been any railcars nicknamed "elephants"? Would R68's qualify? "silver elephants"?
More on a "heavy" topic ;-)
As a source for "seeing the elephant" in re prostitution [or at least free sex] I have Good old Coney Island by Edo McCullough, where he says "[...] the phrase 'seeing the elephant' paased into the language [...] When the Vaudeville comic threw the phrase away [etc., etc., he] was understood to say he was up to no good and was looking for a complaisant young lady to second his motion."
The Pocket Dictionary of American Slang gives a later (c.1940) definition to "see a man about a dog" as excusing oneself to go to the bathroom. It also gives an earlier (c.1920) definition as meaning to excuse youself to obtain illegal liquor, plainly a reference to an illicit intent. I heard the term in the late '50s-early '60s while something of a wanderer about the City to refer to women.
It's interesting how colloquial language changes over time. In the 1930's "making love" to a woman meant simply polite flirting. One of the banned phrases ("seven banned phrases" I think was the term) when Hollywood went moral was "in your hat." The ban was so effective that (while you can use your imagination) I don't think there's one person in a hundred today who knows what the banned phrase originally meant.
Paul and Steve K: interesting about the use of language and how it changes over time.
An interesting article was just published in New York's Village Voice last week on this very topic in regards to the movie "Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me." The piece points out how the Brits pulled one over on us Americans since the cute term "shag" in England is actually a VERY vulgar term which is equated with "making love without feelings" (literally meaning rape).
In the UK the term "shag" or "to shag" is highly prohibited in their televised media and is usually rarely used in print, just as the term f--k is a very vulgar term over here and isn't to be used in standard conversation or in televisde media.
Doug aka BMTman
Don't know about railcars named "elephants", but diesel locomotives, especailly cab units (such as the old Es and Fs) can be MU'ed "elephant style", meaning pointing the same direction, head to tail.
-- Ed Sachs
My dad always went to see 'A man about a horse'
-Hank
I liken an R-68 to a hippopotamus or beached whale. Chances are an elephant could outrun an R-68, especially in the Bronx during rush hour on the D.
What is a definition of an elephant? It is a mouse designed by the New York City Transit Authority. That's right, it starts as mouse and ends up as elephant. The cars and equipment are built super rugged to withstand just about anything.
A elephant can out run almost all subway trains. The speed through the Joralemon Street tubes is 41 mph and I don't thing an elephant can out run that one however. When the circus comes to town lets try it.
Right now I'd pick the IRT over the elephant, and only selected IND-BMT lines over the pachyderm. However, the odds may have to be adjusted on the A division when the R-142s arrive.
Since the R-142 have never been in service, how do you know the odds would have to be adjusted?
The R-142s are an unknown factor right now, based on some of the reports about wiring problems earlier this year. Maybe they'll run as fast as the Redbirds and the R-62s, maybe the field shunting will be removed and they'll be hte IRT's version of the R-68s. No one will know until they arrive and start testing, so that's why I said the odds might have adjusted when the new trains arrive, giving the elephant a better chance.
[ maybe the field shunting will be
removed and they'll be hte IRT's version of the R-68s ]
Aren't the R-142's going to use AC propulsion?
Here's a question -- anyone know what the performance specs for the new R142 and R143 trains is supposed to be? Acceleration Rate? Braking Rate? Balancing speed?
The R-142/142A and R-143 classes will not have field shunting. The cars will have AC propulsion, so the propulsion systems will be somewhat different from what's out there now. The R-142/142A will have "cold" propulsion curves that are roughly equivalent to a no-field-shunted R-62. The R-143 will have two propulsion curves: "cold," which is similar to, say a no-field-shunted R-42, and "hot," which will allow for higher speeds. The "hot" curve will be enabled when the train detects that it is in a Communication-Based Train Control (CBTC) zone. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that even though the cars will behave as if they'd been no-field-shunt-modified, they will accelerate well/maintain speed on up-grades, which is something the current equipment doesn't do.
I know a couple of people who have ridden a two-car set of R-142s at Bombardier's Plattsburgh (NY) facility. They both told me that the cars accelerate well. Of course, that's only over a 1,000-foot (or so) test track that, as far as I know, doesn't have significant up-grades.
David
The R-10s and slant R-40s could outrun an elephant.
The Norton's Point trolley (at least in the 1940s prior to abandonment) ran up onto the Stillwell Avenue L structure and there was a free transfer. I seem to remember the trolley terminal (with its rails set in wooden planking) towards the south end of the Stillwell Avenue station on the far west tracks, used by the Culver and West End (tracks G and H, now 7 and 8). The trolley crossed Stillwell Avenue on its own elevated structure and descended to grade, running along Railroad Avenue, a dirt roadway with houses and stores along its length. The Norton's Point trolley connected with the Surf Avenue and the Seagate on West 36th Street, I think. My family and I would ride it to around West 28th Street and then walk up to Surf Avenue to Scovill's Baths.
Perhaps one of the trolley experts would remember the numbers of the cars used on that line--they were fat and stubby looking, with half-rounded fronts.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Ed: The following series of cars were used;700,2500,5080-5099,7200,8000's and el car series 1000;1100's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks to Larry, RedbirdR33, for the Norton's Point car rosters. I should look in one of the trolley books for pictures and I'll probably recognize the series I remember. BRT L cars were gone decades before I was there, though, but I have seen pictures of them.
Is there a place (FAQ maybe?) where rosters by route are available or is it in the RedbirdR33 archives?
Thanks again.
Ed Alfonsin
try the book "Brooklyn Trolleys" by James Greller and Ed Watson, it has a roster in the back of the book
Ed: There was a series of articles on all the Brooklyn Trolley Lines that ran for about eight years from 1978 to 1984 in the Bulletin on the NY Division of the ERA. They contained rosters,track maps and line histories. The information for the Norton's Point Line came from the February,1978 issue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ed, I have a clerestory sign from one of these trolley cars. It has readings like "Sea Gate", "McDonald Avenue", "Kings Highway", "Ralph Avenue", etc. Any interest? E-mail me if so.
Regards,
Charles
Charles--
Sounds interesting. But your e-mail address isn't on the Subtalk posting--could you send me a note with information and the like, directly rather than via Subtalk?
Thanks,
Ed
(ed@northnet.org)
Dave. If you're interested in following up on Ed Alfonsin's post, try "Davesrailpix.railfan.net". He has a Brooklyn Trolley page and photo bqt017.jpg is a Norton's Point Car. If I remember correctly, Joe Korman's site http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/ which is accessible through the Transfer Station of N Y Subway.Org at "New York Subway System" has an entire page of Norton Point trolleys.
Sorry for the long winded attempt at a link, but I've been having trouble with the "Transfer Station" section the past few months.
I wonder sometimes....
I think a good addition to this site would be a page with farecards/tickets/tokens from various transit agencies around the country.
It came to me when I found a pile of old SEPTA Transpasses from as far back as '96.
Page name-"Fare Control"?(with pictures of turnstiles too!:))
A NYC fare control project has been in the works.
Items from various transit agencies around the country is a little harder. It doesn't particularly interest me so someone would have to volunteer to do it.
Suggestions are great, volunteers are better! :-)
-Dave
I can send in passes and a brochure about how much SEPTA is "Serious about Change":)
I've got about 100 different Metrocards and farecards from various agencies around, I can scan in a few (in fact, already have, if I could just remember where on-line I put the scans....)
-Hank
Regarding the Metrocards -I'm not willing to host the MTA's copyrighted metrocard designs on this site. If you really want to do it, maybe a semi-anonymous geocities type deal is the way to go.
How about on my website, with a link from here?
-Hank
A few notes from today's riding on the LIRR:
My Oyster Bay round-trip was on old equipment. But waiting at Mineola at 5:30 PM for a westbound train, about a half-dozen C-3 sets plus the "old" bilevel C-1 set passed heading eastbound.
While waiting at Mineola, an automated announcement played telling of delayed trains. It used concatenated voice: sound "bites" of a real human pieced together to make sentences. The first time it played, it said that the 5:31 to NYC was 14 minutes late. A few minutes later, it played and said it was 11 minutes late. Then it showed up, only seven minutes late. Boy, that train sure made up time fast!
The passing siding between Merillon Avenue and Mineola is progressing well. The ballast was being tamped just west of the Herricks Road bridge; the right-of-way has been graded for the next portion from the Herricks Road bridge to just west of Mineola.
Why not have a extended Jamaica Av. line instead of using a Hillside Av. line?Do you think it is better?Here is my proposal.After 121st St. on the J and Z form a 2 tracks on the sides to curve west to continue on Jamaica Av. and go to Little Neck Pkwy.This will be an elevated line.Here are the stations for the line:Van Wyck Blvd. with transfer to the E line,Sutphin Blvd.,Parsons Blvd.,168 St.,188 st.,Frances Lewis Blvd.,Hempsted Turnpike,Springfield Blvd. with transfer to the LIRR Queens Village station,Cross Island Pkwy. and then Little Neck Pkwy.I do not know if this is a good idea so help me.Is it good if the line curves west on Little Neck Pkwy.And go to Bayside.
Dont forget that the J used to be elevated to 168th St. in Jamaica up until 22 years ago. I would find it almost comical that the MTA would attempt to build a new elevated line along Jamaica Avenue after demolishing the already existing one just 20 years ago.
I find it comical that someone would seriously suggest it.
Great Idea, Christian. Just the way it use to be.
What happen to a stop between 168 and 188?
3TM
I just wanna know is there any parts of this line that is dissused.I am just wondering because as if I saw an dissused part.
The express tracks beyond Van Wyck Blvd. are currently not used for revenue service.
In a year or two the connection between Queens Plaza and Court Square for the G will become OOS.
[ In a year or two the connection between Queens Plaza and Court Square
for the G will become OOS ]
I have the plans at home, but I don't remember it being out of service. Not used for normal revenue service, perhaps.
Does anyone know if the G will still be equipped by Jamaica Yard? Steve?
Current plans provide cars for G line services are to come from Jamaica Yard. When the 63rd St connector opens, the G service may or may not run to Continental Ave but the physical connection will remain in any event. During late night hours, the crosstown line is an important link for work trains and main shop transfers (drags) going to and from Coney Island.
Channel 2 news just had a spot on about the new cooling system ("spot cooling" was the term they used) for Grand Central and Union Square. Work will start in the fall and cost $10M.
Nice film of the Redbirds and a crowded platform.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse