I'm feeling nostalgic for the 70s.....some P-Wire
tech questions crossed my mind.
P-wire was a current-loop system, correct? I.e. the brake
command was transmitted by a constant current source controlled
by brake handle position. Was that done with a solid-state
circuit? What about the P-wire current sensors in each car?
If this is the case, shouldn't a little series resistance
in the loop not matter?
Steve mentioned dual P-wire loops. How did that work?
On NYCT R-44 & R-46, P wire varied from 0-1 amp. 0 = full service and 1 amp = release. It was controlled via a potentiometer in the active master controller. Each car had a circuit that recognized the P-Wire signal. On the R-44 it was the A-13 package (I believe) and on the R-46 it was the Westcode FL-85 package. Each of these units converted the P-Wire signal to an analog signal to release the brakes. Failure of either of these units would result in one car with stuck brakes or could also result in trainline stuck brakes. Naturally, any resistance or low battery voltage would also affect the brake operation.
The P-Wire loop would begin at the operating cab, run down one side of the train through the Electric portion, cross over at the open end and travel back along the opposite side of the train. On an 8 car train, therefore, there were 14 points where the P-Wire loop X'd an electric portion. By making a redundent P-Wire loop, each of those 14 points was replicated on the opposite side portion face. Therefore if on portion face had poor contact, the P-Wire loop remained in tact on the opposite side E/P. These were not so much redundent loops as they were redundent connections.
Of course, on the R-46 we also had:
A second (backup) P-Wire Generator.
A hostler with still another P-Wire generator.
A stuck Brake Bypass which could release the brakes (in power only)without P-Wire.
These are subjects for another day.
Is the P-wire a cable? What happens if it's cut?
P-Wire is not a cable as such. It is a DC circuit that travels the length of the train twice, hence referred to as a loop.
OK, that tackles the "redundant loop"..so you just doubled
up on the e/p pins that carried the P loop? Were the extra
pair of pins tied back at the junction box behind each coupler?
Now, what I didn't get is the nature of the P-wire generator
itself. Was it a true constant current source, or just
the battery in series with the pot and back down to ground?
Were the extra pair of pins tied back at the junction box behind each coupler?
The Redundency originated in the junction box at each end of the car.
Now, what I didn't get is the nature of the P-wire generator itself. Was it a true constant current source, or just the battery in series with the pot and back down to ground?
The P-Wire generator was a true constant current source. There were actually 2 on each 'A' car as originally configured. There was a toggle sw. on the rear bulkhead of the cab opposite the operator. Throwing the 'transfer switch' switched between the two generators. There was another circuit called the 'Stuck Brake Bypass' on the R-46s only. This was added in the mid 80s. In the case of a P-Wire Loss, the Train Operator could place the master controller in coast, push a button and the brakes would be released by applying battery voltage tot he FL-85 packages directly. The holding circuit would keep the brakes released as long as the train was in power or coast. If the operator went to the mini-brake position or beyond, the holding citrcuit would drop out, the feed tot he FL-85 Pkgs. would be removed and a full service brake would result. Obviously, this was only used for moving trains to the yard in the event of a P-Wire failure.
I do believe the R-44 had the bypass too. No transfer switch though. I think they had a key switch on the panel near the hand brake. was that their transfer switch?
Yeah, the 44s had a stuck brake bypass switch too. My train op P-wire book does not state anything about tranfer switches, presumably because car equipment didn't want us touching them instead of the console key operated bypass. It was a long time ago so I can't remember but if there was it would have been placed under the end sign box door somewhere.
Actually the transfer switch was under the radio bracket. The same place where the coupler control box is now located...
Oh that's what that bloody switch was for!
Now, my point about the constant current source. Resistance
shouldn't have been a problem until it reached the compliance
limit of the source. For a 1 amp full-release current, and
37.5 volts nominal, that means a maximum total loop resistance
of 37.5 ohms.
That's a pretty high maximum value current. In industrial control
apps, 4-20 milliamp current loops are standard.
Oh well, I hope they do better with the new tech trainline
networks. Did they finally settle on Echelon?
Just wandering the internet overnight, mostly cause I couldn't sleep in anticipation of my new job, I discovered GE Transportation Systems web page. Believe it or not, while they link to the official MTA site for info on their sales to the LIRR and MNCR, they link here for their NYC Subway sales.http://www.ge.com/transportation/prg/index.htm#PROP
-Hank
Another reason why GE is such a smart and successful corporation.
Well, to the dismay of my friends and family and utter confusion of my barber, I went to New York on Saturday 5/29 to ride the subway and take pictures exclusively. I was never hassled about taking photos although some riders gave me funny looks and a TA employee at Broadway/ Myrtle kept following me.
Anyway here's the rundown.
I started out from the Amtrak Madison Square Garden Basement. No one there was selling FunPasses, only the 7-Day Unlimited MetroCard. Since I was short on cash and only there for a day, I had to hotfoot it all the way to the visitors center at Broadway and 46th. I then walked to Times Square and began.
1. N from 42nd to QBP. It was a nice ride. I got a train of R-68's(a train of R-42's was leaving as I came down the stairs) and got some shots. Next I took a 7 and had the intention of riding all the way to Main Street but got off at 33rd Street instead. Of course, there's no crossunder, so I had to use my pass to get to the other side back to the city. When the train arrived I got the front window. Great skyline view! I was surprised that about 10 feet after we entered the tunnel we were in Hunterspoint Ave. Here in Philly you'll travel some distance when entering a portal before reaching the next station.
I took that train to 5th Avenue and got the B.
2. After giving directions to Tremont Avenue to several people(???) I took a B(more R-68's) to Lexington/63rd. After looking around, I proceeded up escalator after escalator(3 or 4) up to fare control and then had to take another flight of stairs to the street. Whew!
I bought a Coke and headed to Lexington/59th.
3. I got a dowtown 6 and headed for Union Square. Seriously curved platform. Seriously funky gap fillers. Seriously:). I then transferred and took my very first ride on the Canarsie line(only to 8th Avenue-but I wasn't done with it yet) to the A. I rode a train of R-38's to B'way/Nassau.
4. I left the subway here to walk to South Ferry. I was surprised at how desolate the area was. I was dowtown on the weekend in February, but it was raining. Saturday was sunny and "tres chaud" and it was still a ghost town. When I got to South Ferry I had to wait for a wave of tourists(literally a wave)to come up before I could go down. Took a 1 to Chambers Street, got some shots and boarded a 2 for the Bronx........
Has anyone noticed (especially here) that there arent too many complaints about the FunPass lately?? Could it be that it WORKS???
And-is fairly easy to find?? I would have LOVED to to see this site the day after Chrystie St opened.....(that is, if anyone had gotten home by then...)
I'm sure rail fans get more of their money's worth out of FunPasses than most other users. However, I'm still not pleased that you cannot buy them at token booths. I'm sure they'd sell more if they were available there. But as more of those vending machines come in, this won't be as much of a problem.
The FunPass has been working real well for me. My "record" is 11 swipes in one day, just doing normal things in and around NYC while there working. I now buy them on-line; you pay just face value and they're charged to your credit card. That way, I have the card available for "first use" when I hop on the Q-33 or M-60 at LaGuardia.
I've had no problem with the Fun Pass either; I used one 6 times on Saturday on my trip to the Cloisters and the Metropolitan (E @ WTC, A @ Penn Station, 1 @ 191st St, M86 Bus, M4 Bus, E @ Penn Station). I agree that they should be sold at token booths since a tourist will assume that's where they should buy their subway tickets. But for those of us "in the know" who know to buy them at newsstands it isn't such a big hassle. There are Hudson News stands all over the place after all. It is very convenient if you buy a few at a time (like 5 for $20) and keep the others handy for when you need them.
Am I mistaken, or is the MTA planning to eliminate the 18-minute "down time" on the FunPass and the Unlimited Metrocard soon?
I assume they've got to keep some "down time" on those unlimited ride FunPasses. Otherwise, one card could be used by more than one person, which would certainly not be good for MTA finances.
Right, and I think 18 minutes is fine, but why can't they make it like Philly, where the time limit is only at that station, not the whole system. I've used a FunPass and gotten stung by this - I got on the system, I got a train almost right away, I got off, I went up to surface to a take a picture, then went right back down. I was locked out - for no practical reason. If it had only locked me out at the station I swiped it at the first time, it wouldn't have been a problem, and no one could use it to let more than one person through.
In case of a lockout, just let the token booth clerk know that you need to re-enter the system, but that your Fun Pass has been locked out for the time being.
I should have tried that - I'll have to remember to do that if I find myself in that situation again in the near future.
There are plans to change the lockout so that it will apply on a same-station-only basis. That would apply to the 30- and 7-day unlimited use MetroCards, not just the Fun Pass. I don't know when this is scheduled to occur.
There's a big software update comming.
That's great news that the lockout will finally be same-station-only for unlimited-use cards. Will there be any other changes in how the system works resulting from the update?
When is the change in the lockout system set to occur?
The 18-minute "down time" is strictly for security purposes; to make sure than the Unlimited-Ride Pass is not used for illegal multiple entries. True, it is extremely unfair, to say the least, to lock the pass holder out of the entire system for 18 minutes. And I agree that such a restriction should be limited ONLY to the station the pass was used at. Here's another example of what I mean: in San Francisco, once a weekly or monthly pass is inserted into a Muni Metro faregate (which accepts coins, tokens and magnetic-stripe passes for fare payment), it cannot be re-used at that very station for a period of no less than 20 minutes. I learned this from my last visit to that most beautiful city (around August 23-31, 1995).
Hi; Does anyone have the progress report on the Recon? I understand that it is about 3-4 weeks ahead of schedule. Please confirm. Thanks.
Looks like most of the new track beams are up. There are still some missing sections on the Manhattan side. (I wonder why it will still take another 4 months; it looks over halfway done).
The new structure has been connected to the old over the bus terminal, and the curve has been graduated (eased) into 3 or 4 sections instead of the sharp single angle that was there before. So hopefully this barrier to 75 foot cars has been removed!
Isn't there still that S curve near Cypress Hills to restrict 75' cars?
Yes, the 75 foot long car won't turn the curves at Crescent Street and Cypress Hill. That's why the BMT had the standards at 67 feet long.
Well, if they can construct elevated this easily, and it seems they can, maybe they can just extend the El straight down Jamaica Avenue and reconnect it without such a sharp curve. They can connect it to the 14th St Eastern Line while they are at it.
The curve at CYPRESS HILLS has a gap in the center where a third track would have gone, and despite its tight radius, probably could take a 75-foot car. It's the one near Crescent that may be too tight (especially inbound). Also the curve leaving Myrtle Avenue is probably too tight, ditto near Graham Avenue on the "L".
The radius at Cypress Hills is probably no greater than north of Cortlandt Street, which 75-foot cars are able to negotiate.
Wayne
I grew up under that Crescent St curve and as a kid I ignorantly judged curvature by the screech of the wheels. Jamaica bound trains of 67 foot steels made a devil of a racket going around that curve. New York bound trains were relatively quiet in comparison. This never made sense to me since both tracks seemed to be aligned with each other. I worked in the bank right under that curve and several coworkers were convinced that someday we would get one of those cars in our laps. There was no catwalk on the outside of the Jamaica bound curve (at least not in those days) so if a motorman ever looked down he probably thought so too! He must have thought he was hanging in mid-air.
Karl B
The R27/R30 cars made an ungodly noise on that curve too, whereas the R7/R9 did not. The R1-R4-R6-R7-R9 cars weren't too prone to wheel noise, they rumbled rather than squealed. The R16s if I remember correctly would emit more of a hiss (more of a "thhhhh" sound). The R42s (as originally delivered)- they'd screech if the wheels weren't ground right. In any case, I'd always watch intently as the #15, "QJ", "KK", or "J" train rounded this bend.
My Mom calls Crescent Street the "wobbbly station". She remembers that the platform (before reconstruction) would sway as trains entered and left. I like the way they left the original ironwork supporting the roof shed intact there. They could use some period platform lights, though.
Wayne
It sure did wobble! It seemed to wobble when there wasn't even a train around. A friend told me once that Crescent St wobbled whenever a train stopped at Norwood Ave or Cleveland St. You say it has been reconstructed. Do you know when? I assume that the platform is no longer of wood construction. I can remember when there was a vendor selling papers, magazines and candy in that tiny waiting room. He had a very small (maybe three foot by six foot) stand in the northwest corner of the room. The one platform door would hit his stand if it was opened too far. The waiting room was heated by a potbellied stove which was only a few feet from the vendor. I often wondered what effect the heat from the stove had on the vendor's candy display.
Karl B
Its not that far ahead of schedule, and estimates this early in the project are meaningless anyway. The initial demolition and installation of new stuff goes quickly. There's still months of tedious work ahead to install new track panels in the confined structure of the bridge, reinstall power, signals, etc.
I am looking for info on what a condutor did in 1914 whom was employed by BRT. I am also interested in photos. Thank you!
I biked on Sunday along the Rockaway Peninsula. Starting from the Brooklyn Bikeway that runs along the Belt Parkway and ended at Bay 15th Street, Far Rockaway. (It was just too hot to go over the Atlantic Beach Bridge and do my annual Long Beach/Point Lookout ride).
Off topic a bit, but of interest to some of our fellow SubTalkers, was my observations of the area east of B 75th Street which is pretty much the beginning of what I refer to as the 'No Man's Land' area of Far Rockaway. Since I haven't been riding out here in almost two years I noticed something new that might also explain why development MAY NOT take place along a certain stretch of the beachfront -- from B44 to B57th streets I found the beach sectioned off with signage stating "Restricted Area: Piping Plover Nesting Grounds". On the boardwalk railing at regular intervales were Parks Department placards describing the migrating habits and other info on the Piping Plovers (what they look like I'm not sure). Apparently they use the sand dunnes along that part of the Rockaways to mate, nest, and raise their young. So, it would appear that that stretch of Arvene will not be touched so our 'coveted' sand-dunne pigeons can continue to breed. Go figure.
Three sections of the Rockaway beach were the only City beaches not to open this weekend. Giving the residents the Bird!
I imagine without the subway, Rockaway would be much less populated than it is currently. Most of the population on Rockaway is impoverished, and probably do not own autos. Even if they did, I don't imagine they'd want to pay the $1.75 toll on the Cross Bay. I actually think they should eliminate that toll, anyway.
All of this rambling is actually leading to two questions:
1) Why is the Rockaway el constructed out of concrete while all other els that I've seen are metallic?
2) How old is the el there?
For the same reason that most LIRR els are concrete. This used to be LIRR territory. The LIRR decided to sell to the city after a tresle fire suspended service. After reconstruction service opened to Beach 25 & 116 in 1956 and out to Mott in 1958. The line once extended east of Mott to connect to the current LIRR Rockaway Division. A double fare was charged on the line from 1956 to the early 70s. One paid two fares to enter, and one to exit. If you wanted to ride within the Rockaways, you would get a ticket from the agent for a free exit so you avoided a triple fare.
Jack is El Correctamondo -- your prize is in the mail ;-)
Actually besides the asethetics of concrete as opposed to a steel structure -- I am no expert on sonic vibrations -- but would assume that a concrete -- or more aptly, steel imbedded in concrete El -- has it's vibrations muffled by the concrete so a passing train makes less noise than that of a similar train running on an all steel structure.
Another reason for concrete on the Rockaway line -- with close proximity to the shoreline there is less to worry about in the way of rust and corrosion to the structure from the salt air.
Just my two cents, as usual.
Doug aka BMTman
An addendum to Jack's astute observation - the Rockaway viaduct was constructed in the early 1940s (I believe it opened in 1942). There are a few concrete elevateds in the NYCT system - Queens Boulevard #7 line from Van Damn Street to Roosevelt/Greenpt Avenue; IND "F" line from the Carroll Gardens portal to 9th St & 4th Avenue; also on the White Plains IRT - Bronx Park East and Pelham Parkway have concrete station entrances/fare control areas/mezzanines similar to the Queens Blvd IRT (the trackways are box-girder, however) - ditto East 177th-Parkchester and Westchester Square on the #6.
Wayne
I guess the concrete structured el muffles the sound of the rumbling trains above. I have no idea why only certain areas of subway lines have it. The 7 train in Sunnyside has the same structure format.
I actually like the steel framed structures better myself. All that concrete blocks your view.
The 8th AVENUE IND From Rockaway Blvd (Cross Bay Bl/Woodhaven Bl) To
Rockaway Park Or Far Rockaway, Most Stations and All Rockaway El's were former LIRR/BRT Rockaway Branch Before 1956 When The TA Purchased the Line And upgraded the track, singnals & Jamaica Bay Briges And Tressles For "elevaded" subway service.
So the infamous piping plover raises its ugly (though tiny) head once again. If indeed its nesting grounds are proving an obstacle to Rockaway development, this marks the second time its egg-laying habits have interfered with human enjoyment of the seashore, though in a rather different context.
About 10 years ago, there was a popular beach in Rhode Island called Moonstone Beach. Its popularity stemmed from the fact that beachgoers could enjoy the sand, sun and surf in their natural, Garden of Eden state. Living in Connecticut at the time, I knew of many people whose friends and relatives had patronized Moonstone Beach (funny, none of them ever admitted to having been there themselves ...) But then, piping plover nests were discovered in the area, and federal papershufflers decided that the public had to be kept away. And thus ended a unique beach experience.
The "endangered" Piping Plover has become a recurring joke for me.
I first encountered the legend of the Piper on a visit to Prince Edward Island, Canada back in 1989 (at the time, there was rail service from one end of the island to the other provided by VIA don't know if there still is).
Since then it seems that every vacation I take is already a hot spot for this endangered but well travelled bird. The most Ploverous of Pipers has been spotted (not by me, just by some gov't bird watcher) in Charleston SC, Cape May NJ, Block Island RI, Mystic CT and now finally in the Rockaways.
Looks like this freggin' lame bird has more protection and rights than most people!(And this for a bird that according oof the Parks Dept. placards is hard to see since their coloring camouflages the species against the sandy background.)
You must ammit that birds have more logic and common sense then most people.
None of you understand, "Piping Plover" is a code name fcr "Vested Environmentalist Lawyer." Once one of these creatures are on the scene, they create a unique habitat in that they use the law to colonize an entire area without compensation or competition from others of their species.
In the Catskills, my father in law has adopted the swallow trick for his bluebird house. Put two birdhouses next to each other, and a swallow will take one and fight to keep other swallows out of the nest with the bluebird in it. They need lots of room. Similarly, you put a "piping plower" nest in an area, and it will fight off others of the human species to get more room for itself, preserving other species (endangered or not) in the process.
Being a 22 year resident of the Rockaways, this subject interests me very much. What I am about to say is just my opinion, but knowing the City's (Guiliani's Administration) past tactics against public swimming pools and city beaches, I feel this "bird sanctuary" is the latest in a wave of plans to lower and or cut the costs of supplying lifeguards. First there were the needles, then the riptides, then there was flat out "we don't have it in our budget to supply lifeguards so certain sections of the beach will remain closed most of the summer," now finally there is this bird sanctuary. For the past six or seven years, there was always some reason to close this beach.
Now, anyone who really knows Rockaway can tell you that these so called "bird sanctuaries" only exist in the lower income, minority areas of Rockaway. Give me a break! If the City was really interested in the well being of these birds, then why is that our well to do neighbors such as Neponsit, Belle Harbor and Breezy Point share part of their beaches with the fine feathered friends.
It's just like anything else dealing with politics. When any government decides to watch there budget, it is always the lower income or minorities who feel the shot in the ________, whether is is sanitation, housing, EDUCATION and now beaches. It is rediculous.
Although I'm not saying it's right. It is true that the 'well to do neighbors' give more to the city. In addition to paying more taxes, they receive less social services. The poor don't pay as much to have the beach. Perhaps that's why the city closes it in the poor neighborhoods and not the more well of ones, it makes more financial sense.
Those who really pay more taxes than they get back in services are businesses. That's why most suburbs try to get business "ratables" in and keep poor people out.
Yes, the politically powerful get services in NYC. That's why when we wanted to allow more big stores in to the city, to get more tax revenues for services, they were opposed. They don't have to worry about the city's total tax base and economy, because they get the first tabs on whatever is there. They just worry about traffic, and would rather shop in Nassau of NJ.
I don't agree. Chinatown's Grand Street station got a new door and service, although most of the people in the area are not affluent. Another good example is the Frankiln Street Shuttle. Who rides thaat anyway? So the TA bend to what or who pays them the most, and the local opinion of the TA.
Political considerations were behind the decision to renovate the Franklin Shuttle. From a strictly economic viewpoint, it would have made far more sense simply to shut it down for good. But that would have made NYCT a sitting duck for claims that it was giving the shaft to a poor minority neighborhood. I really think that if the Shuttle had been in a less woebegone area, it would have been closed.
Peter, I think having it closed would have been worse for the communities that the line runs through -- the ROW would surely have turned into a virtual 'homeless shelter' and crack addicts domain.
Just look at the recent history of the Bay Ridge LIRR line: cops had to do 'sweeps' through there on a regular basis to oust druggies and/or apprehend house burglars who had made the barely-used cut a 'den' for their evil deeds.
Even though a bus line can easily (and more economically) replace the Franklin Shuttle -- whatever the reason for it's having been saved -- political or otherwise, is a good thing overall. Besides the contentment of the community at large, we railfans should rejoice as well for the saving of one of the original BRT rights-of-way with all of it's historical significance (both good and bad).
Moreover, the reopening of the Franklin and it's NEW connection to the IRT via Eastern Pkwy will allow commuters to transfer between three distinct lines (A train at Fulton St.; D train at Prospect Park; 2,3,4 or 5 at Franklin Ave.) in case of 'congestion' situations. I am eagerly awaiting the grand opening as I am sure it will have alot of hopla attached to it (video camera will be on hand!)
Oh, BTW, one of the neihborhoods that the shuttle runs through -- Prospect Heights -- is currently going through a gentrification as some yuppies can no longer afford apartment fees in neighboring Park Slope community. So don't think that the shuttle is only going to be used by minority groups (and don't forget the tourist crowd that will use the line to get to Brooklyn Museum and Botanic Gardens).
Doug aka BMTman
I'm also glad that the Franklin Shuttle wasn't closed. New York should not be the only big city in the country with a shrinking mass transit system.
Regarding the affluent vs. poor issue, let's not forget that the ultra-wealthy Upper East Side of Manhattan has wreteched service.
As I've said, most of the affluent people on the Upper East Side are young people passing through on the way from/to elsewhere. They won't be around to use a 2nd Ave subway, their replacements will, so they don't fight for it. And many don't know what they are missing. But their replacements would ride the subway, and would benefit.
Long term residents are very wealthy. They ride cabs, or black cabs. As I cross Broadway in the morning, you can seem them heading to Wall Street, the merely affluent three to cab, the very very rich by themselves.
What about old time, middle income New Yorkers who can stay in Manhattan due to connections, nesting in Mitchell-Lama buildings and places like Stuy-town? They ride buses. They got off the subways when they went bad in the 1970s and haven't been back. Maybe a new subway would bring them back. To the extent someone is fighting for the 2nd Avenue subway, thats' who it is. I remember meeting with the community district managers in Manhattan some years back. They all described their areas as middle-income family communities. I know that's bunk -- Manhattan is the richest county in the U.S., and the county with the most singles. But those folks don't show up at community district meetings.
But if the wealthy, long term Manhattan residents are riding cabs or limousines, and the middle-income Manhattan residents are riding buses, who's left for the subways? By no means all subway riders are poor, or suburban commuters.
(Who is riding the subways). In addition to the through traffic from the Bronx, all those 20 and early 30 something college grads living with roomates on the Upper East Side use the subway. These are the TYPE of people who would benefit from a 2nd Avenue Subway. But by the time such a subway is built, the particular group that is here now will be gone, and replaced by a new group. Hence, they are not motivated to fight for it.
There is something to be said for permanence, and families. We lived in Windsor Terrace as young renters for six years. We knew few of our neighbors, and mostly spent time with friends from work or college, who were dispersed. We weren't sure we'd end up here. Once we had kids, decided to stay, and eventually bought a house, all that changed. Now we spend more and more time with people we met in the neighborhood, and are concerned very much with its future.
Kind of makes you wonder about voting for Hillary.
Nitpik -- but an important one.
< Franklin Shuttle [...] saving of one of the original BRT rights-of-way >
Original Brooklyn, Flatbush & Coney Island Railroad right of way. Predates the BRT, as do some other segments.
[Moreover, the reopening of the Franklin and it's NEW connection to the IRT via Eastern Pkwy will allow commuters to transfer between three distinct lines (A train at Fulton St.; D train at Prospect Park; 2,3,4 or 5 at Franklin Ave.) in case of 'congestion' situations.]
I've seen the new single track bridge over Atlantic. One of the good reasons to keep the line is the new transfers, but because they insisted on this single track layout north of Park Pl., and not even making provision for a scond track (and watch then erect all sorts of condrete barriers that will make extension of the platforms past 170ft impossible), the line will be completely inadequate for emergency diversions. What can you do with 2 car trains at about 7 per hr max? If they made it double, then if the Manhattan Bridge were to close, they could have had 30 tph to Franklin, sending most Brighton riders to the Fulton line which could be increased. The Q could have been reduced down to 7 or less tph, freeing up space in the Montague Tunnel for West End trains to run into Manhattan, instead of shuttles service to Pacific.
Just how much money did they save by building one trackway on a third of the line?
[ Inadequate capacity on the rebuilt Franklin Shuttle ]
It's almost as though they're trying to send us a message: "we had to rebuild this line for political reasons, but we can limit its usefulness."
Of course, I could fantasize that they did this because they want to attach the line to the Fulton Street subway in the future, so they're keeping the structure simple.
That would be real wishful thinking.
The same reasoning was involved when the TA proposed to make 125th St on the #1 a "skipped" stop. In the end they kept it open.
Why does the LIRR leave their diesel trains ideling for hours?
They are not in passenger service yet they still sit there running.
Why is that? To keep the a/c running? It put extra wear on the engine
and wastes fuel. MNCRR shuts their trains down a few minutes after arrival.
It's called: LAZY!
At NY&A we shut them off. The only time it's neccesary is in cold weather, or the thing might not restart. Worse, the radiator water will dump out below 40, to save the engine block from cracking. It takes hours to refill.
I want to thank all of you guys who wrote to me concerning my worry over the "tongue-in-cheek" remarks of the possibility of paving over the Sea Beach for a bus line or whatever. Believe me, from what I've heard about how the line has been made into a world war I trench, and
how it's become a slow local stripped of its Manhattan Bridge moorings, I'm not slow to discount anything the transit authority might be planning. I asm gratified to know that there seems to be many others out there who are Sea Beach fanatics like I am. It's too bad Mayor Giuliani, a Brooklynite, can't use his good offices to stop this raping of our favorite line. The Brooklyn Bridge, Coney Island and the Sea Beach are integral parts of my earlly Brooklyn heritage, and I want to see the train go express to Coney Island once again, and,while we're at it, get it back to the Manhattan Bridge, and stop it from being a boring local through the bowels of Manhattan.
Well, the N does run express along 4th Ave. during middays, if that's any consolation.
I don't know if you've checked out the line-by-line section, but there is mention of cutbacks in express service along 4th Ave. during nights and weekends beginning in the mid to late 50s.
The Sea Beach express tracks, which in my opinion were never fully utilized, have seen two services of note over the years: the Franklin-Nassau beach special and a short-lived rush hour service in 1967-68, the NX super express. It ran only in the peak direction, starting at Brighton Beach, then ran nonstop from Coney Island to 59th St., skipping DeKalb, over the bridge and terminated at 57th St. I never had a chance to ride on it, and from I've heard there were more railfans on those trains than passengers needing to get to Manhattan or Brooklyn. Ridership never approached aniticipated levels, and this route was discontinued in April of 1968. I think it's safe to say you would have loved it. I know I would have, being the express addict I am.
Back in the late 70s they were doing track work on the Sea Beach local tracks, and I remember getting an NX-like express ride (except through the repair section) from 59th to Coney Island, but that's the only time since 1967-68 I know the express track was used.
The Sea Beach express tracks have been used for reroutes from time to time due to track work. They were neglected for some time and fell into disrepair, except for the section which has been used for acceptance testing.
The idea of having nonstop express tracks on the Sea Beach was a good one, but it didn't pan out. IMHO, there should have been an express stop put in at some point, say New Utrecht. The West End stop at 62nd St., where passengers can transfer to the Sea Beach, is an express station.
I suppose if the TA had thought about it, they could have had the express tracks `dive down' at New Utrecht and put express platforms beneath the local tracks at that stop. I agree the long distance between Stilwell and 59th St. is what killed any hopes of a successful express service on the Sea Beach line.
Remember that all the current lines to Coney Island were excursion railroads. The non-stop run from Coney to 59th was a way to have a commuter system AND an excursion system.
They meant to do that!
Just one question: How could they use those tracks for regular service when neither of them were signalled from 59th st. to Kings Highway?
They were operated as one very long block and only one train at a time was allowed into the block and another could not enter until the preceding train had exited the block either at 59 St or Kings Highway.
This is one of the things that limited the number of "NX" trains to only five on about a ten minute headway.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In the late 1800's an experimental railway called the Meigs Elevated Railway existed in boston. There were three enormous cars shaped like a big salami or frankfurter which ran on steel wheels on a 60 degree angle to rail.
Cool looking contraption.
This weekend I rode an N train of R42s through the 63rd street tunnel and down the 6th Avenue express tracks because of a diversion? Those R42s were flying between 34the street and West 4th Street. Much like the Slant R-40s. I never knew the R-42s could go that fat and was a pleasure to do so. I guess they cant get that fast on the Eastern Division? Also I saw that R40m42 pair on the N too! It took me by surprise.
The R-42s used to zoom down Fourth Ave. in Brooklyn when they ran on the N and B back in the 70s, but the elevated lines on the M abd J and the underground curves working around Newtown Creek on the L inhibit any good straightaways, except for downhill in the 14th Street tunnel.
Here, here. I rode on a few N trains of R-42s in July of 1971, and I'm here to tell you they flat-out rocketed along 4th Ave.
They did, but those cars became victims of TA shoddy maintance rather quickly and became a very troublesome piece of equipment with the dark cars, defective air conditioning and defective side signs even if the car "belonged" on that particular line.
I think it's safe to say that the entire fleet suffered to some extent from deferred maintanance. It still would have been interesting to see how the Triplexes would have fared during that period, had they been kept. They probably would have kept rolling right along.
Those R42's really fly on the J line as the travel from Supthin Blvd up above ground to the curve onto Jamaica Ave. Sometimes those cars would travel so fast around the curve between the Bowery and Canal St. that some people would have to hold on to the poles with 2 hands to prevent themselves from falling.
The lead article in the June issue of Rail Transit Online (mailto:jwolinsky@mediaone.net for info) quotes the American Public Transit Association as saying that in 1998, there were 8.7 billion on public transit, up 4.6% from 1997 and 12% from 1995. This one-year increase includes light rail up 6.3%, heavy rail 5.5%, and commuter rail 5.4%. Impressive!
The June issue of Rail Transit Online (mailto:jwolinsky@mediaone.net for info) says that the order placed for the M-7s (new LIRR MUs) specs full width cabs. Could it be that we'll actually become nostalgic for the railfan-friendly M-1/M-3s?
railfan friendly? The cars sure are, the enginewers sure aren't - I got YELLED AT by one for standing anywhere near the front "I don't want you watching me do my job" the guy said. Yes, I filed a complaint - for the record, the LIRR told me you CAN watch outy the window - as long as you're not blocking the cab door. And the cab door MUST be closed at all times. In other words, they aren't allowed to drive the train and chitchat at the same time.
You must have gotten a bad apple. I've stood at the front of the train several times on MNCRR and LIRR quite a few times over a long period and neither the conductor nor the engineer have given me a hard time.
Oh, I certainly did get a bad apple. Anyway, yeah, most crews are fairly decent. I used to frequent one New Haven train last year, I ended up on the "frequent commuter discount" program ;)
Best LIRR trip was one on the PW branch, where, the engineer kept thew door closed, was FAST, and, best of all, the damm MA was dead, so there was no HVAC whinning away. Nice and quiet. You could actually hear the camshaft controller clicking away under the train. I wish they were ALL like that...
[railfan friendly? The cars sure are, the enginewers sure aren't - I got YELLED AT by one for standing anywhere near the front "I don't want you watching me do my job" the guy said. Yes, I filed a complaint - for the record, the LIRR told me you CAN watch outy the window - as long as you're not blocking the cab door. And the cab door MUST be closed at all times. In other words, they aren't allowed to drive the train and chitchat at the same time.]
I remember back in the 1980's riding a train out of Flatbush Avenue and the engineer had a bungie cord hooked to the seat backs eliminating the seats across from the cab and standing at the front door. The bastard yelled at me for trying to stand and look out the front window behind the bungie cord. He said he could get the conductor to have me removed from the train. The conductor later told me that the engineer had a huge beef with mankind and was the the anti-social type. This was a Brooklyn - Long Beach train if I remember correctly.
Today, some of the CTA operators use the same device to block off the "cab area". Full width cabs and eliminating the access to the front door leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I do PAY for my trips on public transit!
That will be too bad. Some of the engineers let my kids blow the horn
at grade crossings!
My grandson had the same experience, but at a tunnel vs. road.
The MTA (LIRR/M-N/TA) just doesn't get it, re. the attitude of these young customers about mass transit.
Mr t__:^)
<< Today, some of the CTA operators use the same device to block off the "cab area". Full width cabs and eliminating the access to the front door leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I do PAY for my trips on public transit! >>
Since the CTA is going to OPTO, the motorman needs access to the left side window to check for passengers before departing stations with egress/entry on the left side of the train. Without full-width cabs the only window access is adjacent to a passenger seat. By blocking off the front door and the railfan seat, the motorman ensures access to the window.
[Since the CTA is going to OPTO, the motorman needs access to the left side window to check for passengers before departing stations with egress/entry on the left side of the train. Without full-width cabs the only window access is adjacent to a passenger seat. By blocking off the front door and the railfan seat, the motorman ensures access to the window.]
Thank you Dave for explaining that to me. I ride the CTA everyday! I've already figured that out the need for the left-side window!
What I was trying to say, and must not have done a good job of it, is that I don't agree with the one-person operation or the attitute of a number of the transit workers I've come across over the many years I've been riding.
However, I don't want to go into that string of messages AGAIN regarding OPTO and attitudes! Thank you.
What is a fireman? I know that they used to put coal into the boilers
of steam locos. But what do they do now? Engineer's assist?
Most railroads eliminated fireman in an effort to cut costs. Big battle a few years back with the BLE on this one.
Now that cabooses have been more or less done away with, what has become of the brakeman? It still seems strange to see a freight train with no caboose on the end.
Many freight jobs are done with just a conductor. If it needs to be done quickly there might be a brakeman. Yard jobs almost always do. At NY&A we needed a third hand for the mainline jobs, because it took too long without them. The LI didn't want us tying up their passenger trains.
I for one hated riding in a hack (caboose) because they don't ride like coaches. Heck you're likely to get knocked down and hurt in one.
Today's RR fireman is ussually a student engineer. That's what the fireman's job traditionally was, a stepping stone to engineer. After steam, that's all it was. To this time the left seat is still called the fireman's seat. The ALP44's even have the heater switched labeled thus: Engineer's Heat/Fireman's Heat.
Hello Folks I have some Questions here. Does any one know why the following WFR36 cars #s 9348/9349 Have NOW been seperated from each other as well as 9652/9653? They are sitting opposite each other with blind ends first on both sets. I hope the #7 line isnt losing these cars yet. By the way, Does any one know what exactly the #7 line is going to get to replace the R36s? Please contact me if any one knows what is going on I would like to know. Thank you have a nice day.
Regards Thomas
Where did you see them separated? If it was at CI, no problem. The car which needs work goes into the Main Shop while the other waits outside till the work is completed.
What are we in England???
This has gone on for more than a year.
Is the TA dyslexic???
Did you write/call the station manager? What did they say?
It is unlikely s/he frequents SubTalk.
-Dave
I wouldn't say dyslexic; left-handed sounds more like it.
At least the escalators work.
If the escalators didn't work it would be an improvement due to the fact that now pedestrian traffic is compelled to clash with each other. Breaking the escalator would actually solve the problem.
As for contacting the Station Manager, How do I do that? They never answer the phone.
> They never answer the phone.
Well, that is a problem, I guess, but complaining about the situation here every few weeks isn't working much better, is it...
Try calling the NYCT Customer Assistance line (718-330-3322).
Near the booth is a sign with the field manager's name.
Try writing to:
Field Manager (John Doe)--your person's name here
New York City Transit Authority
Department of Stations
Room 424
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
Just a reminder for those who have not seen it yet, but the NYC 1953 Subway Token is featured on one of the stamps just issued on the 1950's "Celebrate the Century" sheet. It is on the stamp commerating the World Series rivalries between the Yankees (GO BRONX) and the Brooklyn Dodgers.
The entire sheet is $4.95 containing 15 $.33 stamps.
The sheet should be available at most major post offices.
To contridict and earlier posting by someone else on this subject: If you buy the sheet do not break it apart and use the other stamps. Any future value would be dependent on the sheet remaining intact.
As a long-time stamp collector, let me offer this observation: today's US stamps aren't going to have any appreciable value in the future. Our postal service, in an effort to make money, has taken to issuing stamps like they were wallpaper and is driving serious collectors either out of the hobby or into specialties. Yes, the new stamps are pretty, but they lack the artistic quality of the older issues, and they by-and-large lack any relevance to America, its people, and its history. Bugs Bunny indeed! They are now issuing so many stamps each year that I couldn't use even one of each issue that comes out on regular mail, bills, letters, and cards included. Once upon a time our stamps, like our coins and currency, were America's face to the rest of the world. No more.
Back to the future value - the quantity in which they are being issued will preclude any appreciation. I can, today, purchase US stamps at approximately a 20-25% discount from face value. They will range from the '40s through the mid-'90s issues, will have mostly complete sheets (the plate blocks will be missing from some of the earlier issues, and the Zip blocks from the 6 and 8 cent sheets), and will include fractional and high-dollar values as well as small values. The minimum purchase, however, is usually $500-$1000 at a time - fine for someone who is doing lots of first class mailing and doesn't mind licking lots of stamps but not practical for the everyday user. I've done it a couple of times when I was sending out large mailings soliciting dealers for a train show, but even then it took three years' worth of shows and club newsletters to use a $1000 purchase (face about $1300) worth of stamps. These were mailed when the rate was 29 cents, and most had five or six stamps on them - one ten, one eight, a five and two threes (when I ran out of eights I used two fours). That's a lot of licking!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know what you mean about stamp values. I tried to save a sheet of any stamp that I could afford starting back in the fifties. The only way I could recover what I paid was to use them for postage. I am currently using four 5 cent stamps and one 13 cent stamp on all outgoing mail.
Karl B
You're not alone, Karl. There was a gentleman friend of my folks who got into speculation on 1950s commemoratives. He bought who knows how many sheets of stamps, and needless to say, the plan backfired. For years, every letter we got from him had a combination of 3- and 4-cent stamps on it.
Now, in the case of that subway token stamp, there is a possibility that used specimens of that entire series may actually turn out to be more valuable than unused ones (yes, that does happen). My aunt, the same one who lives on the Red line in Chicago, is also an avid stamp collector. She picked up three sets of each of those decade sheets, one for herself, one for me, and one for postage. I get letters from her with those stamps affixed to the envelope, and I've been soaking them off and placing them in my album.
Otherwise, unless you were lucky enough to get a hold of a Legends of the West error sheet, don't expect much in the way of a return on investment.
Just to let you all know, I gave up stamp collecting a long time ago.
As for Bugs Bunny et al. The Postal Service knows a cash cow when it sees one.
How about various cars on a series of commerative postal stamps. I vote for the Gibbs Hi-V, Lo-V, IRT Gate cars, BMT gate cars.
Have at it guys.
I have a relative who is a member of a group which is trying to get a postage stamp issued to honor the late Audie Murphy. They have been unsuccessful for almost twenty years. Considering this, I don't think there is much chance of getting stamps issued for our beloved old transit cars. It is a nice thought though!
Karl B
One never knows. Maybe they already have it planned for the 100th Anniversary in 2004.
But keep in mind that it would be a limited audience.
One of my close friends served on the Citizen's Stamp Advisory Committee for the USPS for one term earlier in this decade. While there are official criteria that regulate to some extent what may or may not go on a stamp, the decisions - ultimately in the hands of the USPS Board of Governors - are largely either "politically correct" or simply "political". Translation: if you are a member of a minority group or if you are politically connected you have a much better chance of being heard in the decision-making process.
Oh by the way - I suspect that if anyone thinks they have a prayer of getting a stamp issued in honor of the 100th anniversary of the IRT, they need to get their congressman/woman's attention NOW. The lead time from artist's proposal to production/issuance is about four years, unless the subject is a cartoon character or a dead president.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I gave up collecting stamps when the postal service started requireing that I buy two entire rows to get a plate block. I still pick up random issues, and some things that catch my eye on ebay, but I figured, after the Elvis stamp thing, that they'd be issueing so many of future commeratives, it'd become like baseball cards-so many people have them, they're worth less than you paid. The next issue I have any intention of buying will be Ted Rose's Streamliners, only because of the trains.
-Hank
Now if they'd only release a complete sheet with just the GG-1...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi, again; does anyone (part. sta. agents) know if the train to train tranfer (w/Metrocard) at 63-Lex. is still in effect? Thanks.
That transfer was discontinued with the return of normal service to the 63rd street line.
The TA should consider building a connecting tunnel from the Lexington Ave./63rd St. station to the 59th St. station on the Lexington Ave. line when the connection to the Queens Blvd. line opens in 2001. It would really take the pressure off the transfers at Lex/53rd. st on the E/F and Lex/60th st. on the R.
it wouldent be worth it, all the other connecting tunnels were closed becouse of crime, why would this one be any diffrent. althought one could be constructed to be more crime-resenstance (Wide tunnel with bright lights and nowhere to hide, also security cameras inside the station/tunnel and monitored localy witin the station(s)
Besides the transfer being 5 blocks long, which is a pretty far walk as far as transfers go.
-Hank
5 blocks? I thought it would be 3 (60th-63rd) ...
Sorry, I was thinking 68st. But 3 blocks is still a bit of a walk.
-Hank
Not much longer than the 51st to 53rd st. walk you have to make from the E/F to the 6.
Hi,; it seems that in its haste to eliminate the free transfer @ 63-Lex, the TA then mentions that shuttle service only, weekends through July to 57-7 only. What gives?
Just got #6 in the series of MCs sponcered by Continental Airlines:
"A World Wide Web. Without The Internet."
Mr t__:^)
Nice to know.
Anyone have any idea which stations have them?
Does anyone have information about the history of how the original four or five car IRT locals were extended to the present ten car length? Canal Street, Spring Street, and Bleecker Street stations on the east side seem, based on the appearance of the tilework, to have had the southbound platforms extended in the 1920s and the northbound platforms extended in the 1960s. Astor Place looked this way too until the recent post-modern decorations were installed. Worth Street had the extension on the southbound side only. North of Grand Central, the local stations seem to have been built for eight car trains, later extended to ten.
On the West Side, the stations below Times Square also appear to have been built for for eight cars with a later extension. Between Times Square and 96th Street, the original 1904 local stations appear to have been extended in the 1960s. 91st Street was left in the old configuration.
Thanks for any info. about this.
The quick answer is that the orig. line started downtown on the East side, then went cross town at Times Sq., then uptown.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, that's true, but that doesn't explain why the platform extensions were built at different times. For example, when the West Side IRT was opened below Times Square (I haven't looked it up, but it was around 1918?), the local stations between Chambers Street and Times Square could handle eight car trains. Yet the local stations between Times Square and 96th Street remained in their 1904 (four car) configuration until the 1960s. That must mean that the West Side locals remained at four cars throughout that entire period (c. 1918-1962). Why the long delay in extending the older stations?
Canal St, Spring St., Bleecker St, and Astor Place are puzzling because the southbound platforms were extended in the 1920s, but there seems to have been a 35-year delay in doing the northbound side. What happened?
I don't have any memories of how the system operated before about 1962. I'm just using the appearance of the tilework to get clues about how the original IRT route was upgraded. When did the locals go from four to eight to ten cars?
Thanks,
PD
I heard the southbound extensions were in 1947. I thought late 20's as well, as the design does look like the "missing link" between the later Dual Contracts designs (espcially the 1928 14th St extension) and the older IND design. I'm thinking of the simpler friezes, thick sans-serif lettered station name mosaics, black tiles with white letters and arrow pointing to exits, and the vertical tile layout right below the ceiling.
|_|-|_|-|_|
|_|-|_|-|_|
But it probably looks that way to try to match the older parts of the stations
I know which ones you're talking about - the southbound IRT Lexington stations below Grand Central. Spring Street is one of the best surviving examples of this. It has almost and IND-style tile band, except it uses large single square tiles instead of 4 1/4" squares, similar to the Nostrand Avenue line, but with a simpler border.
I'm not sure if this is a Vickers design or not.
I don't ever recall seeing this on the northbound side - these tiles are the early 60's style. You also see this on the upper west side stations like 79th, 86th. etc.
The 14th St-Canarsie line's 1928 stations are fairly consistent with the 1924 ones except they have a contrasting band near the base of the walls, and there's more use of cut porcelain rather than standard ceramic (e.g. Wilson, Bushwick-Aberdeen). The island-platform Myrtle Avenue station has no girders in the wall proper and the band is set near eye level. The colors on this section tend to be brighter as well. Montrose Avenue, the last stop on the 1924 section, previewed this trend.
Wayne
Here's a little help. In 1909 the Public Service Commission issued permits to extend all local platforms on Contract one to fit 6 car trains and all express platforms from 96 St south and northbound platforms north of 96 St to hold 10 cars. 149 St-Mott Av,145 St-Lenox,City Hall,Hoyt St, Nevins and South Ferry were not done.
This is from Cunningham's history of the IRT.
Remember too that a ten car train of Lo-V's did not need 510 feet of platform. They did not use the first and last doors of the train so the platforms were somewhat shorter. When the R-Types came on line the platforms had to be extended an additional 20 or 30 feet.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I do remember when I was a small kid, I remember seeing work done to extend the stations for the Jerome-Lexington Avenue express. I guess this would have been around 1962. That must have been the extra 20 or 30 feet you mentioned. The extensions had modern tilework in the subway stations and modern lighting fixtures on the elevated ones.
The West Side local stations from 42nd Street to 96th Street seem to have the original 1904 portions plus long modern extensions. I believe 91st Street was closed around 1959, so I assume the West Side locals had short trains before that date.
I think Worth Street was closed in 1962; it has an extension on the southbound side only. The other stations up to 14th Street have the northbound extensions, so the East Side locals must have had short trains until these were finished.
It's still hard to discern any consistent pattern in the way the extension projects were done over the years.
Around 1959 the Broadway Express was discontinued in favor of the 1 Local. At that time the trainms went from 5 cars to 10. All local stops were lengthened and in the case of 96, the side plats were closed. I recall seeing a portable sign on the side plat: ALl trains onm the express platform. Since that time, many have been renovated and now have a unified tile pattern.
If my memory serves, I seem to recall that ten car trains were operated on the Lex Local before all the platforms were extended. Only the doors on the half of the train that "platformed" were opened at these stops.
That would explain how they dealt with the short platforms on the northbound stations between Brooklyn Bridge and 14th Street. The ridership at those stations must have been lighter than it is now.
PATH still does something like that at the Exchange Place station. Some of the trains are one car-length longer than the platform. Since the conductor is in the first car, he opens the doors on all cars except the first one, which is stopped beyond the end of the station.
PATH runs 8 cars on the Newark to World Trade Center line. Even on their other lines, the normal operating position for the conductor is in one of the first two cars But I have seen the Conduxctor between cars 2 and 3
The invitation is still open for everyone who want's to come up to Kingston, this Saturday!
We need trolley car conductors and flagmen. If you want to get trained as a motorman, you have to come up!
Harold and I can't do it. 6398 needs it's work done. If we're running trolley cars, we're not sanding, painting and the like.
C'mon all you computer screen railfans, GET INVOLVED!
The same applies to Branford. Take your pick and decide who you want to help!!!!!
-Constantine
Even though I am inFlorida, I will be there in spirit. I appreciate your interest in making things better. I am researching BRT in 1914-1933. What was the role of conductor in 1914? What was the role of a motorman in 1930? Any help would be great! Thanks
I am employed by the CTA in Chicago for 12 years as a
Motorman and a member of A.T.U. local 308. I am new to
sub-talk, and would like to start correspodence with
fellow New York rail personnel from T.W.U. local 100. I
have always been fasinated with the New York Subway
system.
Welcome aboard there are lots of New York City Transit Employee's on this site. I been a Train Operator for 11 Years. The title was Motorman when I came out in 1988. I hopefully will visit the Chicago Elevated someday. The closeist city I go to on vacation is Phila rideing the Market Street Elevated or Interview OPTO Train Operators on the Broad Street Line.
Thanks Pelham Bay Dave. The CTA also got rid of calling us motormen and call us operators. I HAVE BEEN A MOTORMAN, I AM A MOTORMAN, AND WILL ALWAYS BE A MOTORMAN!!!!!!!
Me too!!!!!
"I HAVE BEEN A MOTORMAN, I AM A MOTORMAN, AND WILL ALWAYS BE A MOTORMAN!!!!!!!"
No doubt, but it would take either a miracle or major surgery (not usually paid for by insurance) to make a woman, however well qualified to operate a train, into a motorMAN, so maybe that's why the title was changed.
More politcally correct nonsence!! I have no problem with women being motomen. As a matter of fact I have trained a lot of them here in Chicago. Just leave the English language alone.
You've just been introduced to one of the 3 "Js" in the Windy City. He's a GOOD guy so please turn down the flame.
Mr t__:^)
"I have no problem with women being motomen."
I didn't think that you did, and I apologize if it sounded that way. If I thought you had a problem with women running trains, I wouldn't have argued the matter the way I did because it wouldn't work.
"More politcally correct nonsence!!"
I disagree with most of the politically correct stuff ("personhole" for manhole", among other examples) and I understand that many people who came to the job of operating a train when the title was "motorman" feel that it diminishes the prestige of the position to change the title to "train operator."
However, IMHO, when one is talking about the title of a job, especially one that has been traditionally held by men only, I think the "man" part DOES sound to many women like they are implicitly excluded from the job, or at least they won't be welcome there.
Anyhow, even if someone thinks that is being overly sensitive, the higher-ups aren't changing the title in order to offend or diminish the existing "motormen" but to avoid offending the "train operators" of the future.
I disagree with most of the politically correct stuff ("personhole" for manhole", among other examples) and I understand that many people who came to the job of operating a train when the title was "motorman" feel that it diminishes the prestige of the position to change the title to "train operator."]
At least on the LIRR, the term "brakeman" is commonly used. I haven't heard of any push to change it to "brakeperson."
By the way, why isn't the term "engineer" used to denote persons operating subway trains?
What about Motorperson ? Would that work.
NO!
Hey don't insult people who drive trains by calling them engineers. They slide rule kind of engineers gets all the jokes.
Hey, Peter...you took the idea right out of my head! Great post!
When I was a kid (and it wasn't THAT long ago) I thought the 'guy who drives the subway train' was called an Engineer just like the "regular" interstate railroads.
If the NYCT would go back to the term -- besides not offending anyone's gender -- it may also raise the esteem of motormen since the term even sounds more potent than both 'motorman' or 'train operator'.
Doug aka BMTman
I also think that "engineer" would be a better choice than "train operator." There are only two drawbacks, as I see it:
1. As noted elsewhere, people sometimes think of engineers (not the train type) as Dilbertish nerds.
2. Engineer is sometimes used in a parody sense - sanitation engineer, domestic engineer, etc.
Still, it's a better choice.
Title isn't going to change morale PERIOD! respect from management will or might be a step in the right direction...
Not necessarily as if if we were truly engineers, we would be represented by one of the best unions of the trade, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. The Transport Worker's Union tries to defend those who slack off but the BLE "strongly" encourages those to show up and do the work. Although I don't have much time working for the BLE as I do for the TWU, I noticed the BLE has an easier time boosting morale and gaining fair contracts because their members are counseled by the union before they are caught by Labor Relations. In the public eye they are truly professionals with far fewer incidents than their counterparts at NYCT. They get their "respect" from management because they are not willing to negotiate their jobs in exchange for money, a strong weakness at the TWU. WE at NYCT must develop a respect for ourselves before we demand it from management.
I presume the $60 media tax was passed because of the busdrivers.
Said in a way only a Lawyer can say it. Mailman is a Mailman not a Letter carrier geesh... I guess we will have to wait for the First Woman President to see the First Gentleman?
"Mailman is a Mailman not a Letter carrier geesh."
But you have to admit that "firefighter" makes more sense than "fireman." Fireman sounds like someone who SETS fires, not puts them out! And "fireman" can be confused with the (mostly obsolete) railroad job of stoking the steam engine with coal. (^:
"I guess we will have to wait for the First Woman President to see the First Gentleman?"
That sounds about right to me. We certainly can't call the present President a gentleman, First or otherwise. (^:
I couldn't have said it better myself.
When Jimmy Carter was running the show, I used to say, "Are you sure about that now?"
With Mr. Bill, I say, "Come on, tell the truth."
John,apology acccepted. I was threatend by a superintedent to be sent to retraining because I continued to call myself a motorman and not an operator.
Back in 1982 I took the 'Foreman's' Test. By the time I was appointed, in 1984, the job was re-named,'Leader'. In 1986 my title was again changed , this time to 'Maintenance Supervisor'. I took the promotion to Superintendent ONLY because I couldn't remember my former title.
At this depot I'm a MANager and a foreMAN. Eat your hart out.
Mr t__:^)
I wish I was a member of the A.T.U. T.W.U. Local 100 is a lousy union.They want us to cough up $60/person for a media campaign pertaining to our contract.Those of us from the subways are against it,while the busdrivers are for it.
Mike, at least you received more money for OPTO. We didn't get not one penney more.
I want no part of it.I'm not qualified on OPTO.
I don't blame you. I have no other choice.
I believe theres $2 more an hour. But I have not done OPTO and will aviod it as long as I can. I could get A sweet 9AM TO 5PM job with Sunday Monday off on the Grand Central Shuttle doing OPTO but I won't.
How is OPTO in Chicago?
OPTO in Chicago (which thanks to week union leadership is system wide) STINKS11
As you can see several Motormen are on this site along with some Station Agents, bus drivers, and even some "suits". I know at least one VP who looks in occasionaly & have even seen him post a reply.
The three things that make this site so great for me are:
- Dave Pirmann, our host
- The scope of the folks on the site: buffs, not-so buffs, employees\
- All the folks from out-of-town. You'll get to know the three "Js" from Chicago who are customers & very knowledgeable about your sys.
As for me I'm a lover of trolleys & subways who just happens to work for a "private" bus company in NYC. I look forward to hearing you & Mike, Bill, Dave, Steve, Jeff, etc. comparing notes !
Mr (small)_t__:^)
Picking up the theme of culling my collection, I have a segment of an Eastern Division side sign. It has readings from just the J and LL, both in grey. These are the signs with the strip maps on the inside. Interestingly enough, the "J" section has readings with North Terminals for 168th Street, Queens Blvd., AND Parsons Blvd.
Also available is the model sign used when R46 cars were hors de combat and the Jamaica Yard routes were switched to the R44. You all may remember that stickers were made and placed over non-used destinations from the original signs (such as for the EE) and this was the sign that was used by Bridge Decal to make the stickers. Strip maps also on the inside.
Either one can be yours for postage costs (prob. $15) plus anything else you may want to throw in there for the effort. E-mail me with any thoughts.
Thanks and regards,
Charles
Satisfaction guaranteed.
Just a question about the J line: Why was it cut back to Queens Blvd in '77 and then back to 121 st. in '85? Why wasnt it just shortened to 121st st from the beginning? Seems like a waste of money to install a scissors crossing a Queens Blvd. if that part of the line was already scheduled to be closed down in less than 7 years.
My recollection is that there was alot of political pressure to get the el structure off of Jamaica Avenue in the center of the shopping district, even before the new Jamaica Center station and connecting subway cut would be ready. The theory was that with the el structure gone, shoppers would throng to Jamaica Avenue. That's why the original cutback was from 168th Street to Queens Blvd. I believe the structure from 168th St to Sutphin Blvd came down very fast. The cutback from Queens Blvd to 121st St was done when it was time to put in the subway link-up east of 121st St
The then Chairman of the MTA was David Yunich who had some connection to Macy's and Macy's was one of the store agitating for removal of the el. The TA actually oppossed this move as an unnecessary expense but was overruled by the MTA. As I recall the day the TA finally did close the el Macy's announced that they were closing the Jamaica Store.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Sounds like a big mistake to me, but there is a lesson. A narrow financial interest can get a subway built, a large customer interest cannot. A co-workers says that the 6th Ave line was built well into the LaGuardia era as part of the plan for Rockefeller Center. It connected many of the wealthiest areas of the city at the time -- Washington Heights, the Concourse, Queens Blvd -- right into its number one business location.
Larry: I don't like to use the word but the cutback of the Jamaica El to Queens Boulevard years before the Archer Avenue Subway was completed was "stupid." All those merchants who clamored for its removal most have pondered this as business fell off. Not only did the el no longer go to the main shopping area but the service now required a transfer to the Q-49 bus which got even longer when the el was further cut back to 121 St.
We endured the same kind of negative improvement in the Bronx when the 3 Avenue El was replaced by the Bx-55 which doubled the running time.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[I don't like to use the word but the cutback of the Jamaica El to Queens Boulevard years before the Archer Avenue Subway was completed was "stupid." All those merchants who clamored for its removal most have pondered this as business fell off. Not only did the el no longer go to the main shopping area but the service now required a transfer
to the Q-49 bus which got even longer when the el was further cut back to 121 St.]
While I certainly agree that the Jamaica Avenue merchants were a bunch of dopes with respect to the anti-El campaign, in all fairness it should be pointed out that Jamaica was already in decline as a commercial area by the 1970s. Many of its customers had been siphoned off by the Queens and Green Acres malls and the neighborhood itself was becoming somewhat run down. Whether preservation of the El until the Archer Avenue line opened would have made a difference in the grand scheme of things is one of those ultimately unanswerable "what if" questions.
Peter: It is ture that the area was in decline but these things seem to go in cycles. However once you remove a rail right-of-way,be it subway,el or surface, it is almost impossible to replace it without a very great effort. The Jamaica El was no more or less unsightly than any other Contract III El in the City and many other areas function quite well with elevated structures besides with these structures provide the residents with rapid transit service to other areas of the city. I don't recall exactly when the Jamaica El cutback started but I think it was nearly ten years before the Archer Avenue Subway opened. This was tens years in which there was no convient interchange between the el and the LIRR or the Jamaica Bus Terminal.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Also much of the structure stayed in place years after the line was cut back. An abandoned elevated structure isn't going to much for a neighborhood.
The last three stops on that line were closed in September of 1977 and demolished almost immediatly, up to the Sutphin Blvd. station. The tracks leading out of Queens Blvd. (the terminal from Sept '77 to April '85) were used as layup tracks. The next 2 stations (Queens Blvd. and Metropolitian Ave.) were closed in April of '85, but not demolished until early 1991. As a teenager I was able to sneak up into the Metropolitan Ave station and actually walk the track. I even stole an old light fixture. Please don't turn me in (LOL)
The Archer Ave. line opened in December of 1988, 11 years after the el was first shortened.
Chris: Thanks for the correct dates.
Larry
No problem. This subject is a very sore point with me and I'm very well versed on the facts surrounding it.
You're welcome. This subject is a very sore point with me and I'm very well versed on the facts surrounding it.
Why did they shorten the Jamaica ave el in the first place? They should have left it the way it was and just let the Z train go to jamaica center. Thats a smart idea well have a nice day.
[Why did they shorten the Jamaica ave el in the first place? They should have left it the way it was and just let the Z train go to jamaica center.]
It was intended that construction of the Archer Avenue subway would make the Jamaica El largely redundant. In the process, it was expected that Jamaica Avenue would become a more prosperous commercial district without trains rattling overhead, much the same as Third Avenue in Manhattan improved considerably following demolition of the El in the 1950s.
Unfortunately, the process in Jamaica was completely messed up. Due in part to pressure from area merchants, the El was closed years before the Archer Avenue subway was ready. Deprived of useful transit access, the Jamaica area deteriorated and many of the stores along Jamaica Avenue - including some of the ones that had campaigned for the El's premature removal - closed shop. There were more factors involved with the neighborhood's decline, as is usually the case, but there's no doubt that the El fiasco played a major part.
Well having both the el and subway would be redundant. The subway was intended to replace the el. I personally believe the Archer Ave. connection was a tremendous waste of money and very ill-considered. The original idea was to convince riders from southeast Queens to take the J to lower Manhattan and not the E. Unfortunatly, the J is so slow that many people who use the J line take it out to Jamaica to get the E, defeating the entire purpose of the line. Congestion in the Queens Blvd. line is similiar to what it was pre-Archer Ave. The only good thing to come out of it was the massive rehab done to all the remaining Jamaica Ave. el stations, which in the early 80's were in pitiful condition. One wonders how much money could have been saved had the Jamaica Ave. el been completely rehabbed from 168 St.in like the remaining stations are today. Diverting busses which before the Archer Ave. line opened linked to the E/F at 169 St. and 179 St. to the el at 168 St. would have forced many people to use the J instead of the E/F and would have almost certainly eased overcrowding on these lines. I still say this whole thing was one f the dumbest mass-transit moves ever made in this city and shows what happens when business interests become too powerful, forcing local government to make decisions which are against the best interests of the people.
I believe one of the justifications for the Archer subway was that it would serve as the means to extend the subways into southeast Queens, perhaps along one of the LIRR routes. That would certainly increase the value of the Archer subway, but I wouldn't hold my breath for any such extension.
The $2.5 Billon Bond issue in 1968 had also called for a Southeastern Queens Line (in addition to the full 2nd Avenue Subway up to the Bronx) and was the basis for the Archer Avenue Subway construction. This plan included in addition to the Jamaica El Replacement, the taking at least of portion of the existing LIRR right of way to go to Laurelton. (There has been some reports in SubTalk earlier this year that plans have resurfaced. Especially after the 01/29/99 Regional Plan Association publication of its Metrolink proposal.) Basically, this controversial Southeastern Queens Line was another revival of the Second Phase IND.
Just like the 2nd Avenue plan, the Southeastern Queens line went up in smoke with the fiscal crisis of the 1970's. By the time, the Archer Avenue construction started, the plan was basically obsolete, but there was no champion to change the scope. Thus we got what we have today, another unfinished dream.
Great idea, but why did the TA see the need to remove the el? I dont think any of plans I've heard about had the J line going further than Jamaica Center.
[A narrow financial interest can get a subway built, a large customer
interest cannot.]
That may be part of the reason why the Second Avenue subway has never been built. As far as I know, the business community has not advocated strongly (if at all) for its construction.
How did the merchants on Jamaica think that the destruction of the train would be throngs of shoppers into the area? How can "throngs" of people come into an area if you remove the main vehicle for their traveling? Short-sighted thinking in it's purest form.
BTW, I think that when shoppers had to resort to unreliable busses to get into Jamaica after 1977 they took their business to Green Acres Mall, which is a better place to shop anyway. One wonders what Jamaica would be like if they took the money it took to dismantle the el and put it towards rehabbng the line (like the stations along Jamaica Ave. are today) ...
The Jamaica line was cut back from Queens Blvd. to 121st St. in 1985. I remember seeing a wall map with pertinent information; unfortunately, I don't have a corresponding folding map. They took their time dismantling that portion. I drove down Jamaica Ave. right underneath the abandoned section on Oct. 22, 1988 - the very day my sister got married - and it was still intact.
When Jamaica ceased to exist as a shopping center, what became of those two great old motion picture theatres, the Loews Valencia and the RKO Merrick? I got my first ride on an R-10 on the BMT going home after seeing a movie at the Merrick.
Karl B
I know one became a church, but not sure which one it was.
The Valencia is now a church- was subject of a recent article in the NY Times.
I received an E-mail as a result of my post telling me that the Valencia became a church. The Valencia was right at the 168th St station. No one seems to know what became of the Merrick. The Merrick was across the street and west putting it very close to the 160th St station. At least that's the way that I remember it. It was 45 years ago. Thanks for your response!
Karl B
Transportation improvements within the city, including everything talked about on this page, are the lowest priority.
Part of New York City's surplus will go for commuter's tax cuts. No doubt Upstate will be given a higher share of state funding in exchange for their votes on the commuter tax, at NYC's expense. Within the city, there is pressure for more spending on health care, pensions and senior citizens, where the city's spending is above average. The City Council already passed a bill increasing the cost of pensions for corrections workers by $100 million per year. The Mayor wants even more cops. Everyone is pretending they want to spend more to improve the city schools, but no one does.
Even within transportation, the call is for more operating expenditures, not new routes or solving the Manhattan Bridge problem. And even within capital expenditures, the money will all be going for suburban rail improvements. We'll be lucky if the Montigue tunnel and the Lex Express are not simply turned over to the LIRR and Metro North -- business groups have called them "underutilized" and called for direct suburban service.
Last in line for improvements, and presumably first in line for budget cuts in a recession.
[Transportation improvements within the city, including everything talked about on this page, are the lowest priority.
Part of New York City's surplus will go for commuter's tax cuts. No doubt Upstate will be given a higher share of state funding in exchange for their votes on the commuter tax, at NYC's expense. Within the city, there is pressure for more spending on health care, pensions and senior citizens, where the city's spending is above average. The City Council already passed a bill increasing the cost of pensions for corrections workers by $100 million per year. The Mayor wants even more cops. Everyone is pretending they want to spend more to improve the city schools, but no one does.]
I don't deny that what you say is true, but why is it so? Increased spending on health care surely would be a perfect illustration of the concept of diminishing returns. New York has long far outspent the rest of the nation, but for what end? I haven't noticed that city residents are living to an average age of 100 :-) Much better to use at least some of the money for transit improvements, where there most definitely *is* a need for increased spending.
Could the solution to this mystery lie in the health care lobby's much greater influence than the transit lobby's? I suspect so.
Well, to continue, I boarded a #2 for E180th. Bumpy but enjoyable Redbird ride(at least north of 34th, when the railfan window was finally free). Once on the el, the train lurched along. E 180 seemed to be on the ground at the northern end. And what was up with that platform all the way across the other side? Something from the IRT days?
Anyway, I got a #5 back to Manhattan and got a 6 at 14th Street to Bleecker. There, I transferred to B'way/ Lafayette. Last Saturday, the N was running on 6th Avenue(which was strange because I saw uptown and dowtown trains on 6th but got one from Times Square) and I got it(R-42's) across the Manhattan Bridge.
I was surprised at how high we were on the Manhattan side. Once at DeKalb, I left and headed for Hoyt St. on the IRT. I wanted to wait for a D so I could do the Brighton Line, but after 10 minutes and no D, I left. Once at B'way/Nassau via the 2, I got a 4 to Brooklyn Bridge. From there I transferred for the Nassau shuttle. When I got to Chambers Street I was impressed by the vastness of not only the station itself, but of the tunnel which was pretty darn high. I took the S to Canal and tried to connect to the N for the Sea Beach, but of course, the N wasn't running on Broadway. The Canal/Bridge Line was pretty gruesome as was the Nassau/Canal station. No chance it'll be in action soon.The third rail was up on blocks!!!
So then I had to hotfoot it to Avenue of the Americas(but who calls it that?) for the A. That took me to Hoyt/Schermerhorn for the G, which I got to Metropolitan Avenue for the Canarsie Line.
And now for the good stuff. The Brooklyn Els(what's left of them).
I took the L all the way to B'way Junction. The segment between Halsey and Bushwick was weird. Halsey in tunnel. Outbound track elevated at Wilson(overlooking a cemetary!) and back in tunnel at Bushwick only to shoot onto the el again at B'way Junction. From there I got the recently truncated Broadway El for Myrtle Avenue.
At Myrtle, I waited patiently(about 15 minutes) for the M. When it arrived, I rode out to Wyckoff. I found the area alongside very depressing. At rundown Wyckoff Av. I descended for the Canarsie line. I was glad to get into the cool albeit VERY dark mezzanine out of the 85 degrees. Once the train arrived(with a conductor standing outside the door and calling out stations all at once) I rode to 6th Avenue for the F.
After that I retraced some steps to get some photos before getting back to Penn and barely making my train.
I had the intention of riding the Brighton and Sea Beach lines, the A to the Rockaways, and the E out to Jamaica, but I didn't have the time(I had to be home by 8).
All in all a great trip and I appreciate the subway more now that I've ridden some of the lines I've only seen on "The Map".
E 180 seemed to be on the ground at the northern end. And what was up with that platform all the way across the other side?
Something from the IRT days?
It is on the ground. And the platform you saw was the New York, Westchester & Boston station at East 180th St. This was the NYW&B's primary passenger interchange to the subway. The NYW&B did not have a Manhattan terminal like the other Westchester suburban railroads.
[The NYW&B did not have a Manhattan terminal like the other Westchester suburban railroads]
Which, in large part, is why it failed after only 25 years of operations.
Can someone tell me what is the name of the line between:
Borough Hall - Franklin Ave Station (2 3 4 5)?
President St - Flatbush Ave (2 5)?
Franklin Ave - Utica Ave (3 4)?
Utica Ave - New Lots (3)?
And why di they not mention it on the signs at stations. I do recall when Lenox Ave was under construction it was called Bklyn lcl/ Exp but I don't think that this is the right name?
I don't think it has a name(I assume you mean like "Brighton Line" or "Concourse Line").
You could call it the Eastern Parkway line or Flatbush Trunk(just my suggestion-do with it what you will).
Or just "Brooklyn IRT":)
I've always thought of the Brooklyn IRT as the 'Eastern Parkway' or 'Brooklyn' line, with a 'New Lots' and a 'Nostrand Av' Branch.
I just took out a 1960s ERA reprint of a 1937 IRT map. In the listings on the flip side, the Brooklyn IRT is called the "Flatbush Avenue Eastern Pkway Line & Livonia Av.Br." (Presumably 'Br.' is 'Branch,' since that's used elsewhere throughout the route, distance and time listings.) After listing the stations from New Lots to Atlantic, there's a second heading, 'Nostrand Avenue Branch,' with stations from Flatbush to Atlantic Avenue. Strangely, on the map itself, the line from Atlantic to New Lots is called the "Brooklyn Line" and the branch to Flatbush and Nostrand ("The Junction") is called the "Nostrand Avenue Line."
So, the suggestion by Stephen Ives that you call it any of several options is a good one--when the IRT itself used different names on the maps and on the service listings, you'd be in good company.
BTW, the IRT map also includes this information--is it still accurate?
Express time from Utica Avenue to Franklin Ave. 3 minutes
Express time from Utica Avenue to Atlantic Ave. 7 minutes
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Q Train: As they were built:
Bowling Green-Atlantic Av Contract II "Brooklyn and Manhattan Rapid Transit RR"
Atlantic Av- Utica Av Contract III "Eastern Parkway Brooklyn Subway"
Utica Av-New Lots Av Contract III "Livonia Av Brooklyn Extension"
Franklin Av-Flatbush Av Contract III "Nostrand Av Subway"
Today all subway stations have a red sign posted at the end of each platform given emergency exit,track, station and line info.
According to these signs Boro Hall(2,3) is on the IRT Broadway-7 Av Line,Boro Hall (4,5) is on the Lexington Av Line.
All stations from Hoyt St through Utica Av are IRT Eastern Parkway LIne.
All Stations from President St to Flatbush Av are on the IRT Nostrand Av Line.
These signs are not posted on elevated stations but I would refer to
stations from Saratoga Av to New Lots Av as the IRT Livonia Av Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Is the location of the brake trips different between Division A and B because of the cars or was it for some superficial sort of differentiation?
I believe that it was no more sinister than the IRT and BMT were originally private corporations and each had their own signal system. More significant that the placement of the trippers is the differencew in car dimensions.
For anyone interested, there is an entire new ACELA train sitting in the 30th St. Yard. I couldn't see the engine, but it looked like a Genesis II to me(though it was covered in plastic).
There's also one of those goofy bullet shaped engines further down the tracks near the Spring Garden St. overpass.
You can get a great view from the Regional Rail platform at 30th Street.
There is a full set of the hi-speed trains plus one of the new electrics, 651, which has been here a few times in the past couple of months. The set has been attached to both an AMD103 and an FP40. There must be some testing going on.
I've noticed that subway cars have colored bands under the number decal. Since I noticed green and no red for the IRT and red and no green for the IND/BMT I assume it's a car/yard thing. Am I correct?
According to the track map book yard colors are"
240th street---- red # 1 line
239th st-------- green # 2 line
Westchester----- yellow #6 line
Jerome---------- Orange #4 line
148th street---- blue #3 line
Livonia Yard---- blue #3 line
E180------------ black *also unionport yard) #5 line
Corona---------- purple #7 line
to order the book e-mail: brakeman@nycsubway.org
Corona also has yellow squares under the number boards. Yellow for GE cars, purple for Westinghouse cars. All single cars are Westinghouse cars.
Colors on BMT/IND cars only indicate various modifications to help with issues of compatibility and have nothing to do with yard assignments.
Admittedly, I have not given Erik's suggestion as much consideration that it does deserve. His idea does have merit and I am, of course, not a PE so the following is only my opinion based on how I believe DCE Engineering might view it.
In order for it to work, the output from the speedometer, would have to be fed to a 'frequency-voltage' converter to get an analog signal. The output voltage would be used to bias a semiconductor device to either conduct or shut down. This device would likely be placed on the LG side of the Door Relay or PIR coil. In this way, if the speed, as Erik suggests, exceeds 45 MPH, the door relay circuit would open causing the train to coast. When the speed fell below 46 MPH, the door relay would pick up again, allowing the train to take power again. Placing the circuit on the LG side of the Door Relay would virtually eliminate the possibility of back-feeding the indication circuits. Of course, there are any number of possible variations of this scheme but as far as I see, they all have the same flaw.
The original basis of Erik's idea was that full field shunting would be restored. Presumably, a train would have maximum torque to negoyiate grades but the speed would be clamped at 45 MPH. Cost here is not an issue as the f-v converter and the trigger could be installed relatively cheaply. The speedos all have the RS232 port. The idea is easily do-able. The problem is that the failure of the speedometer would result in a train that could exceed 45 MPH and thereby become unsafe. The fact that the speedometer could alone trigger this failure constitutes a potential 'single point failure' and therefore would not be acceptable, as I see it.
Of course I appreciate the idea and plan to look at it deeper. A great deal of credit should be given to Erik and others like him. Despite the meddling by the bean-counters (who louse thing s up) and 'play-it-safe' managers like myself, they are constantly trying to help solve the problems of the system, often without thanks or appreciation.
45? If the trains actually got up to 35 between stations it would be an improvement. On trains where I can see the speedometer (or when the door is open), the only time in recent memory I've seen more than 28 is downhill in a tunnel. And I ride the F, D, Q, R, M, 4, 2, and 3 for variety.
There is a real competitive issue here. When subways were competing with horses, they were rapid transit. They can't compete with cars on highways, unless there is a delay at a bridge or tunnel to slow them down. But cars can to 35 on arterial streets, stopping occasionally at a light. A subway needs to go 35, stopping occasionally at a station, to keep up. If the R train can't beat a car driving up 4th Avenue and over the Brooklyn Bridge to City Hall Station, its a problem.
Well the ball is in the TA's hands now. For a couple of years by now they are realizing the savings of power consumption. Lower speeds probably mean less wear and tear on car equipment and rails. They have added over 5 minutes on most lines so their trains look like they are on time on paper. They don't look at BMT as "barely moving trains" they look at it as "big money transit" as they in my opinion have put safety aside in the name of making profits, whether it the use of defective third rail protection matting, readjustment of brake cylinder settings and dynamic brake and other numerous incidents recorded by OSHA. 5mminutes is a lot of time to add to a trip considering a train with a good operator could have easily make up a 5 to 7 minute loss with the old school. Remember that upper level management is not riding the R-68 as it climbs into Queensboro Plaza at 18 MPH.
Here's an idea to mitigate concerns over a single-point failure in the speedometer causing a modified train to travel at more than 45 mph:
The circuitry would constantly check to see whether the speedometer in the operating cab is functioning. If the speedometer did not display anything, or displayed a constant 0 mph while the controller was in a position other than "handle off," the train would revert to ENRCON propulsion profile, which is equivalent to removing the last stage of field shunting (which is how the subway cars are set up now).
Of course, whatever Erik/Steve/Jeff/anyone else comes up with would have to ignore speedometers in non-operating cabs, since a speedometer is only of interest/concern here when it's in an operating cab.
Techies?
This of course doesn't get around any issues where the speedo is displaying the wrong speed, but "functional" My answer would be two speed pickups per car, one on each truck, and only relaying the signal to the speedo display/motor contol if they agreed.
Other thoughts:
I'm assuming the controller goes through multiple steps of shunting. Does it matter what step it sits in? To what degree could speed be controlled this way?
Does the controller shunt while in series? Again, the above question applies.
Why not achive smoother control by kicking to series aroung 43 mph, then off at 46, or mucking with the shunts in a simmaler way. In effect, start cutting power as the train approaches 45, not once it hits 46.
as a backup, why not some emergency gov that would dump the brakes at, say 50 mph?
The suggestion above is getting a little complicated. Since series is good for about 20 mph it really isn't a problem. The type of control described in Steve's post is just about how the ATO works in Boston. In actuality, you do need a penalty brake application to cover downhill runs and a failsafe speedometer. An inverted circuit might work, using 36 volts for stopped and 0 volts for 45 mph. Thus a loss of output would create a 0 volts and cut power. The same question comes up though - have the accelleration rates themselves been degraded? See my last post in the prior thread.
Gerry:
By this point I've begun to completely distrust what manuals tell me. It's written that series will provide 18 MPH, but in the real world series is only good for ten. 12 or so down hill. The acceleration rates of NYC transit cars remains the same below 18 or 20 MPH. Again, despite whatever the books may say, the acceleration above that point is reduced. On level track 30 is an average speed. With distance 40 is possible. A downhill lending assistance. At 18 you only have to view the motor ammeter
to see the motor current drop like a stone. It's 100 amps by 22, and with a down grade, only 50 when you get to 40 MPH. IF you get that high.
With feild coils phasing in at around 18 or 20, #1 truck motor current stays at about 300 amps, and steadaly falls to 120 to 110 at balancing speed. Norally 50 MPH.
As I said in the post beggining this thread, down hills aren't really a problem. There are only a few where speeds above 45 are possible, and for the most part are protected by time control signals.
Those not protected-60th St tube-are already known to be at 55-60 MPH. Apparently TA sees nothing wrong here. Maybe because the long upgrade will surely bring that wonderful 55 down to a positively lethargic 18!
Steve's suggestions make me see that my idea trully is feasible. I have some follow up's. We'll be getting together soon. I hope the TA takes them seriously.
The accelleration rate is controlled by the current in a pair of motors. The higher you set that current, the faster the train accellerates. The big kick is at the point of transition where the current effectively doubles. Once it drops below the limit relay setting, the cutting out of resistance has a very small effect and full parallel is quickly attained. Engaging the shunts increases the current again but also reduces the torque, thus you don't get the kick you got at transition, just a slow ramp up to top speed. If series holds you at 10, the kick from transition bumps you up to 18, followed by a slow increase up to balancing speed. Shunting slows the rate but increases the current and top speed. A current trail (assuming 250 A rate setting and 11 steps) would show:
0 with power off
400 amps starting dropping to 250
350 amps on the second point
325 amps on the third point
300 amps on the fourth point
275 amps on the fifth point
260 amps in full series
450 amps on the seventh point
300 amps on the eighth point
275 amps on the ninth point
260 amps on the tenth point
and
255 amps in full parallel
now the shunts kick in giving about 300 amps as you noted, the current will again drop back to 250 and rise slightly as the other two steps of shunting come in, once there are no more steps left on the controller we move toward balancing speed.with accelleration declining as speed increases. Series balancing current is about 25 Amps, rising to 50 in parallel and about 70 with full shunting. You only really feel the first and second points of series, and the first point of parallel. The others are pretty imperceptable. Also remember that the current increases going uphill but the notching current doesn't. You can't change the accelleration rate from the controller in most cases. PC type control had a notching button which would force the controller to step but could overload the motors. ABF or ALF control will sit there if the motor current doesn't drop. Modern systems have more starting torque, but still lag on steep grades.
Well, I looked over some old SMEE manuals. I didn't realize how
far down the curve the TA systems were engineered in terms of
gearing and shunting. The notch-up speed for the transition from
full parallel, full field to full-parallel, 25% shunting is only
13-15 MPH under "typical load", which means level tangent track.
Remember, the notch-up speed is not the same as the balance speed.
There isn't any good formula for relating the two...you have to
look at motor curves. You could make a crude approximation and
say 2-to-1.....e.g. notch-up speed for series-parallel transition
is 9 MPH. Multiply by 2 and you get 18 MPH, which is about the
typical balancing speed on level tangent track for full series.
So is 19 MPH the balance speed on a 2% upgrade in full field
parallel? Harold's in-field data would seem to support that number.
I've seen a notching, or "tickler" button on some streetcar
PC and PCM groups, but it was not used on any of the NYC rapid
transit cars.
Someone brought up the Lo-Vs. They did not have field shunting, but
they did have weak-field in the form of tapped fields. Each field
winding on a Lo-V motor (GE259A, I think) has 3 leads, not 2.
Since that's also an interpole motor, it makes for an interesting
reverser design! ABs, Ds and R1-9s have the same thing. The tapped
field is only used as the final motoring notch; it is not used for
"smooth starting", and of course there's no dynamic braking.
Here we go with the interesting technical stuff again! Usually 'tapped' motors have one extra lead and reversed armatures - even with interpole motors. The 'F' contactors usually swap the tap lead wih the low main lead to effect the field reduction. This in turn is simply one or more main coils being cut out of the circuit (and open circuited to avoid a dynamic braking effect because the armature is turning in a shorted field coil and generating some current in that).
Tapped individual coils sound intriguing but would need several contactors and leads, but could work with a normal reverser, since only the outermost connections need to be reversed.
Yes, with tapped field motors the armature polarity is swapped,
not the fields, in reverse. Normally the field coils are swapped
to keep them closer to ground. A tapped field motor has 5 leads:
2 armature leads and 3 field leads. Now, I've never taken one
apart. Internally, are there two field coil windings per pole
piece with 4 leads per coil?
I would raise a theoretical disagreement about shorting the fields
causing dynamic braking. In fact, I was just looking over the
wiring diagram for Lo-V 5466, and in its (GE PC-10) control, in the
tapped field notch, the tapped portion of the field is effectively
short circuited.
There should be no induced EMF in a field winding, because the
flux seen by a field coil is rotationally constant (+/- minor high-frequency oscillations from fringing effects at the
edges of armature slots)
By way of comparison, each armature coil, passes under successive north and south field
poles as it revolves, thus inducing EMF.
I won't disagree on that one - but I have seen some controls which do open the main cirecuit when closing the tap. This is what led me to consider loading as a possible reason.
Gerry
The relatively low transition speed is consistent with my above sequence since the limit relay current is substantially above the current at balancing speed. In line with this full-field full parallel is also reached at fairly low speed, leaving a long ramp-up to balancing speed.
The major difference between the R-68s and the R-44s or R-46s is that they are the only 75' cars routed over the Manhattan Bridge, thus their lower horsepower to weight ratio is more noticable. Remember that an 8 car train of 68s has 32 motors while a 10 car train of 60' cars has 40. Thats 25% more horsepower! Admittedly some of that advantage is lost since there are four more trucks, eight more motors, four more control systems and at least two more compressors in the consist, but I would bet that therein lies most of the performance difference.
Oops: I got carried away - thats two more control systems and one more compressor!
Phil:
I'm very glad to have spawned this discussion. To borrow a phrase, This is the free and open exchange of ideas and opinions. Thank you David P.
To continue the discussion, I decided on a simple approach, as this is the one that will most likely reccieve consideration.
I don't believe that dumping any train is productive unless it's about to hit something. A service application is better. But the associated valves and circuitry would cost. That hampers my sales pitch. Better to let it coast at 45. There are few places where more than that is possible. They're all on down grades, and we're already doing over 50 there anyway. 60th St tube comes to mind.
The group does go through several steps of shunting, but at this time the equipment does not provide for retrograde control. Once advanced the only way to get the controller in a lesser power position is to shut it off and start again from zero. The original R-44/46 controllers did. They had the regulated speed provisions, and the ability to retrograde the group box controller was key to that end. So controlling speed this way is do-able. I suggested putting in at least one point of shunting on the R-68's to help with their less than stellar performance. Like talking to a wall.
Feild shunting is used in the initial steps of acceleration to cushion power application. Ever notice how Lo-V cars really jerk when power is first applied from a stop? They didn't have field shunt coils.
Good thoughts. I hope to see more constructive thinking out there.
Interesting point, Erik, about the lurching start-up on the Lo-Vs. The same thing happens on light-weight streetcars (such as when they have no passengers on-board), even in the first point of series power. So at Seashore we teach our motormen to take the first point simultaneously with releasing the straight-air brake -- similar to slightly slipping a clutch on a motor vehicle. The result is a smoother start. Now of course with trains that have pre-SMEE train-air, it's trickier, as the timing is different due to the "signal" lag that results in the brake release.
Yes, but you still feel that bump as the power is applied. The trucks' suspension takes up the brunt of the force. Unfortunately a lot of our NYCTA train operators (motormen know better) take power before the brakes are released. The only affect is the annoying squeal of the train beggining to move with brakes applied.Ugh.
The brake release/power apply squeal is standard on Boston's Blue & Orange Line trains. The Hawker-Sidley cars used on both lines have Cineston controllers (single handle, like R-44/46s). Operators routinely go from full service brake to the full running power notch in one full swoop, without letting the brakes release very briefly in "coast." EEEEEEEEKKKKKKKK!
Do the LIRR M-1s know better than to do that silly trick? They seem to periodically roll backwards right before tasking off when the m/m does this...
I have no direct knowledge of LIRR m/m training, but my observation is that most take a brief pause in 'coast' before taking power.
Don't forget that those have P-wire braking as noted elsewhere too.
Maybe they have the "forced coast relay" that the TA decided to install on the westinghouse R-68 cars ecause of their headbanging power surges they had when they were delivered.
I'm not really sure what the "Forced Coast Relay" is. Are you referring to the Field Forcing Relay. If so, this was not installed by the TA. It was always part of the Westinghouse XCB248S control package.
(BTW: Westinghouse R-68 is redundent since all R-68s are Westinghouse)
I don't know the details. I do remember the RTO bulletin regarding the power surges those cars made. Seems as if a motorman went from coast to power while the train was moving, it would make a tremendous surge foward. If I do recall correctly, a few people were hurt from this.
In response, CED put a time delay relay in the master cotrol circuit? It took a few years, it wasn't until around 1990 that this problem went away.
I do know that if you open the CB+ breaker there is a relay that clicks in the off side cabinet. I'm guessing this is the one that controls the forced coast. That's what the RTO bulletin described it as.
I know around 1990 or a little after the TA modified the R-68 fleet with a forced coast relay. What this did is time delayed the cars ability to take power after the release of straight air. The initial problem occured when releasing the brakes about 20 MPH where as the rakes were originally too slow in releasing, the dynamic faded and the cylinder applied while the straight air was still decreasing. After clearing a slow timer or just plain stopping short of a car marker if you went to a power position the train would severely jerk hard, causing injury. In one case in Concourse Yard, the excess power was so severe when I worked track test in 1989, it broke a shear pin while making an add in front of car equipment personnel. There was a bulletin issued to RTO after 1990 and Im sure it is in your diagrams somewhere.
M cars have a power interlock that prevents them from taking power while the brakes are applied. The pressre settings are supposed to be around 5 to 7 psi(inshot pressure) and that should hold the cars from moving the second or two it takes to get power on.
Sometimes, an Engineer will wait a moment to apply power. It's good procedure to allow the brakes time to release. Don't worry, it won't roll more than a few inches before it begins to take off.
ALP44 locomotives and the AEM7 also have this interlock.
I would imagine that some would suppose on the R-44/46 that you could hook it up to the air brake light circuit but each car has a pressure switch hooked up to the individual brake cylinder branch pipe which leads me to this question. If one car has a leaky J-Relay or a stuck application magnet valve how will you be able to take power from a standing start? If a train in the yard let say my favorite main shop guys are shoving cars (pulled angles)are we going to have to sectionalize then BCO everything behind them? Last but not least if we have to go by sealed cabinets, new air valves,with associated cutouts and rulebook changes behind them are we turning one great solution into a thousand new problems. Id like to see faster trains too but not if the operators can't handle them.
this seems like a topic with no real correct answer. After a station stop or any stop for that fact once brakes are released the m/m will take power a rule of thumb is never to let your train roll back. if your train is on an upgrade after a stop before the brakes fully release its practical not to mention safe to take power to avoid a roll back. Plenty of cars brakes squeal for different reasons new brake shoe pads, incorrectly or maladjusted brakes but a trains brakes will squeak from time to time. In some cases once brakes are released the electric brake circuit is supposed to release all cars simultaneously some brake shoes are still too close to the wheels causing screeching as train is taking power.
How about adding a DPDT relay so that trainline GS is opened and the 5 energized (mini brake)during overspeed conditions arriving from the speedometer? I noticed when operating the R-46 that just by moving the valve lightly towards application closing the dynamic brake contact switch in the controller applies the dynamic even though the valve is not far enough lapped to apply straight air to the pipes.
"How about adding a DPDT relay so that trainline GS is opened and the 5 energized (mini brake)"
From a purely technical point of view, on R-46s energizing the 5 wire does not automatically translate into a brake request. In order for the GE propulsion package to set up for a dynamic brake, there must be air in the Straight Air Pipe (SAP). The Dynamic Brake Rate Transducer (DBRT) senses the air in the SAP and produces a dynamic brake effort equivalent to the pneumatic request. (On the R-46 in particular, mini brake translates to a SAP = 15 PSI when moving from power or coast and SAP = 22 PSI when moving from full service to mini.)
By the way GS is no longer really GS. The GS wire has replaced the 6 wire and the 6 wire is used for energy conservation.....
Steve, I know what he's talking about. I've seen it too. I always assumed a faulty SAP needle on the gauge. But it does seem to happen a lot.
Steve the next time you deadhead with your favorite T/O ask him/her to drop the A/B or B2 and go past the snow brake on ME 43 or mini brake on R-46 only. You should be able to take a point of dynamic with no straight air. BTW to the genius out there who wired the R-44s after overhaul so they have NO DYNAMIC with an open A/B circuit and they take dynamic brake with an open Control Cutout: Thanks for making the TA more confusing than it should be.
I used to get a big kick out of the way a train would jerk forward when power was applied. When I started riding the subway regularly, I got so immersed in it all that I would stomp my foot when I was ready to walk (OK, jog) from one place to another at home just to imitate that lurch. Put it this way: back in 1967-68, I lived, ate, and slept thinking about the subway. When it came time to put covers on my textbooks at school, I would arrange my name and subject one on top of the other, and draw an R-32 style sign box around the whole thing, complete with crank knobs.
It wasn't just the old equipment, either. As I recall, the SMEE cars did it, too. The R-44s and R-46s were the first cars that didn't jerk forward. It's not nearly as noticeable on GOH equipment now.
Steve, you sound like me. I had help though. When I was sixteen, I had an internship with the TA. All throughout the summer of 1986 I worked (played) at the 207th Street shops. I brought home side route signs. When they unroll, it's close to 30 feet. Great wallpaper for my room. Mom loved it.
When the R-44 cars got the Westcode brake equipment, the original motorman's console's were being tossed into the trash. I salvaged several. Set one up in my room, and using the P-wire potentiometer got it to run my model trains. Shame I couldn't afford model subway cars. Looked strange seeing that thing controlling frieght trains around my room.
To this day I still consider it the time of my life. My first real girlfriend, a great summer job, no real responsibilities. Trains, trains, trains.
I was a terrible scavanger, too. I used to bother all the foremen for any thing collectible. I grabbed up R-9 builders plates, the little tag that states: "Property of City of New York" hard hats, you name it. The best was I managed to get at least one of every type of key and tool for the cars. Brake handles, reverser keys, all of them. That was my favorite souvenier. The set of keys I had from back then is the same set I use at work every day now.
Actually, the presence of the RS232 port doesn't really do much.
It does, however, indicate that there's a microcontroller
inside the box. Perhaps a new PROM could get blown {hhh}
which would output a signal to energize a relay which could
interrupt the circuit. I wouldn't worry about backfeeding
21 wire..there are a bunch of contact breaks in that circuit
besides doors....what's another?
However, I would not use 21 circuit because it's too easy
to bypass with the side door bypass button. Also, and this
applies to interrupting the Control Cutout too, when this thing
kicks in the train will be coasting with no 3 or 5 wire, and
guess what, no dynamics when the m/m pulls the brake handle back.
I would install a 4-pole relay in the junction box under the m/c.
Drive it from the output of the speedometer. On Thursday night
I'll look over some wiring diagrams and suggest where to put
the wires :)
Of course, I'm not sure how Erik's suggestion or any of the
technical variants fit into the system safety picture. This
permanent enercon mod was done as a cheap fix. Nevertheless,
engineers went up and down the system evaluating top speeds
and stopping distances with this mod in effect. It isn't so
much limiting the top speed of the trains to x MPH..since clearly
that isn't being done now. Trains can still top 50 in river
tubes. It's more a matter of with the mod in place, trains no
longer reach speeds in excess of the signal/braking safety
limit anywhere in the system. You can cut off power at 45 MPH,
but that might still create a bunch of places in the system
on downgrades where speed will become excessive.
There's another way you can fix all of this, but it's expensive
and semi-permanent: just change the gearing on the fleet.
Well, I'm back in town now so I can look over my prints.
I'll take the tacky route and follow-up to my own posting.
In re the earlier discussions about using the door relay circuit
to drop power in an overspeed condition: Don't do it! You don't
want to drop out dynamics too.
I would suggest obtaining an output from the speedometer module
which is energized when speed is under the threshold, grounded
otherwise. Run that to a relay located in the junction box
under the m/c. Put nice tamper-resistant screws on the box and
a lead seal to minimize the chance of in-field re-engineering.
The relay has 4 poles. When energized, it leaves the 3, 5, 6
and GS circuits intact. When dropped out, it energizes 3 and 5,
providing dynamic spotting, and interrupts 6 and GS. A 3-pole
bypass switch, protected with a lead seal, allows the relay contact
breaks in the 3 5 and GS circuits to be bypassed and restores
normal operation, but leaves 6 de-energized forcing "local" mode.
Oh, and I would really suggest reversing the contacts on all the
ECR relays to make the 6 wire more failsafe: energized for express
mode, de-energized for local mode.
Good suggesions. Do you mind that I incorporate them in to the final proposal?
Sheldon Silver and others are holding a pulic forum on the 2nd Ave subway, Thursday June 3rd 7-9PM. The place is at P.S. 20, 166 Essex St, between Houston & Stanton Sts. To get there, you can take the F to 2nd Ave and walk east along Houston, or take the F or J train to Essex-Delancey and walk north along Essex.
I took a nice ride today on a midday #7 Flushing Express from Grand Central to Main Street. The Flushing Line is where the World's Fair R-33 and R-36's still hold forth. Once we left Queensboro Plaza we switched to the middle track (IRT C-1) and had a nice ride on the concrete viaduct to 46 St and then turned onto Roosevelt Av,just as we passed 52 St we encountered that bain of TA express services,the grade time signals which slowed us up on our approach to 61 St. Leaving 61 St the #7 express had a chance to show her stuff and we had a fast run to Junction Blvd where we caught up to the local and met a Manhattan-bound local at the same time,a three way meet. Leaving Junction Blvd we made common cause with the local to 103 St but then said goodbye to those slowpokes. Approaching 111 Street things got interesting. Not only are there very few double deck elevated sections left but this is the only one to still have double deck elevated express service. Being a express we dutifully climbed to the upper level which is the proper place for an express on an el and passed through (or over) 111 Street at a good clip but had to slow down approaching Willets Point. Yes, grade time signals again.
Leaving Willets Point we passed the mother of all auto junk yards and over what was the ROW of the LIRR Whitestone Branch. I couldn't even make out details of the roadbed. Out side the portal we stopped for about 20 seconds until a pocket was free at Main Street where we arrived on track C-4.
Its a great run and its nice to have the midday service back.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I understand you, believe me. I love riding the IRT #7 when it is in express service (6.30am to 12.00pm inbound to Manhattan, 12.30pm to 9pm outbound to Main Street Station).
In fact, I am a mere 10-20 minutes travel via bus to Main Street from where I live in Flushing, Queens, N.Y.
Ill try it one day after work......
My visit yesterday was on a Saturday but I will post my observations on the 7 line here since this is the active thread at the present. As always, the equipment on the 7 line was clean, the service was frequent and the only objectionable item I observed was the scratchitti on almost every window. (And I know how expensive that glass is so I am not advocating replacing it, it's just too bad that our youth can't fond less destructive things to do with their time.
As noted elsewhere the cars seem to transition to parallel very quickly and not together. Thus, just after starting there is a lot of coupler banging, Sadly, because of the fast notch-up, some of the accellerative advantage of series running seems to be lost.
Now as far as running was concerned we did ok considering the local stops and so forth. But in the river tunnel the performance was dreadful. Westbound there are a string of 30 MPH grade timers leading to a single 20 MPH at the bottom of the grade. The train had a green on every signal - that works out to about 22 MPH down to the last one and then 16 there. This was also true on the eastbound run. It seems like the t/os are afraid to challemge the timers - or afraid of the consequences if they get tripped. the bottom line is the train has little or no momentum tackleing the upgrade run and it seems like an endless ascent to Grand Central where you can see the station from the bottom of the grade. I don't lnow what the speedometer reads during this process, so I can't verify my speed estimates, but the way time lights work is the signal clears from red to green (or yellow) as you approach it, if you are traveling at the indicated speed. If it clears as you approach the preceeding signal - you are going too slow!
Gerry
You are indicating you saw one shot and two shot timers.One shot timers are timers where you approach a signal that's red.If you go at the allowable speed for that area, the signal will clear(yellow or green).Two shot timers are a set of timers where if you approach a signal at allowable speed,THE FOLLOWING SIGNAL WILL CLEAR.The signal you are approaching is clear already, usually with an illuminated "S" lit underneath the signal.The aspect on the signal is yellow.
I was out at Queensboro Plaza today at the east end of the upper level when a #7 train of R-33/36 WF Redbirds arrived at the same time an N train of R-68's came in.
As the R-68's had just made that though climb up out of the tunnel they were given a head start of about a car length when the Redbirds took off,not only did they catch up to the 68's but the last Redbird car cleared the station before the tail end of the N train. I know the 11 car #7 was about 39 feet shorter then the 8 car R-68,but there also about 20 years older.
Maybe those BMT cars need some Geritol.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In all fairness, leaving Queensboro Plaza upper level, the #7 trains have no speed restriction, yet the N trains have grade time signals due to the very sharp curve going around the curve toward BeeBee Ave.
There is a miscellaneous sign signal 20MPH north of the Plaza on track 2.Most people don't follow it though.It is in effect all the way to 33rd st-Rawson.
I remember talking to a M/M out of my class three years ago who told me they caught 14 T/Os with the guns at Rawson in one rush hour.
I remember talking to a M/M out of my class three years ago who told me they caught 14 T/Os with the guns at Rawson in one rush hour.
They have to watch out at 45rd and Hunterspoint ave also on track 2,15mph going into 45rd,15 or 20 going into Hunterspoint.
That and a set of headers and a racing cam.
Or maybe some Nestle's Quik.
I bet they think they're old BMT Standards (yeah, RIGHT!). They even wear the same numbers. Heck, I bet the Museum BMT Standars could beat 'em. The D-Types did.
Wayne
Of course, the R-68s don't moan and groan the way the BMT standards did, but I think you're right - the standards probably could outrun the R-68s, even though they were several tons heavier.
BTW, speaking of BMT standards, how did they used to fare in the 60th St. tunnel? I wonder how far their pitch dropped from the time they bottomed out in the tunnel to when they reached Queensboro Plaza. In the 14th St. tunnel, their pitch would drop by as much as a major sixth, from G# to B.
There have been recent postings about the Sea Beach being relegated to inferior "via tunnel" local service to and in Manhattan on Broadway. At least one writer stated that there has been (and I assume continues to be) an effort to destroy what was southern Brooklyn BMT service, by gradually cutting it back, eliminating (as on the N) express operations, etc. It seems this has nothing to do with the Manhattan Bridge situation.
If so, why? What is there to be gained? How might N service be further degraded? Is the same in store for B (and M), and R service? Would the MTA dare degrade Brighton D/Q service, considering how busy that line is? The idea of replacing trains south of DeKalb Ave. by buses was noted. Totally unacceptable. One writer noted a significant drop of riders on these lines (does this include the D/Q in Brooklyn, too?) blaming it, I think, on the poor service there. Has the population of train users in southern Brooklyn actually gone down there? If not, are they now using autos to get to work?
Something doesn't seem right about this because a few months ago, someone posted information about frequency changes on different lines planned for the fall 1999. The B was shown to be getting significantly (I think) improved service, dropping from around every 10 minutes to every seven minutes, if I remember correctly. Why would this be done if patronage had gone down?
I found myself somewhat amused, in a small way, by the hand-wringing about the N-dilemmas with the extra-long ride to Manhattan: why not simply get off at 36th St. and take the B? That goes express over the bridge, and is an express in Manhattan. That should shave 10-15 minutes off a trip to, and from Manhattan, I'd imagine. And when the Manhattan Bridge is finally (!!!!) fixed and both sides are open, the N will return to its express status, I guess.
Another question: if the B frequency will be increased, does that provide the possibility of peak direction express service between 36th St. and Bay Parkway? (Has B/M ridership gone down, stayed the same or gone up, over the last 5 years?)
I'd appreciate your thoughts on these comments.
Mike Rothenberg
The bridge problem provides a capacity contraint, which has affected all service via DeKalb. Too many people pack on the B, D, Q to avoid the twisting turning run through the tunnel now. Those trains are packed. There is a car shortage, but it comes down to the bridge. New cars could be bought. It isn't a conspiracy -- if it didn't cost money, the problem would be solved.
Ridership fell substantially on these lines after the bridge problem started (I have 1980 to 1990 data). People with jobs in Manhattan avoid moving to those areas. Ridership rose elsewhere in Brooklyn -- housing prices too.
I'd be interested to know if F service rose during those years as well, since it doesn't use the bridge and paralells the lines in question.
(Did F service rise as other service was cut?) Nope, although to be fair the F isn't all that packed in Brooklyn. In many places, the is equadistant from the B, N or D/Q. But since the F is local all the way, it isn't any faster than the others even with the Manhattan Bridge delays.
The MTA proposal to ameliorate the effect of this disruption was to line the DeKalb trains to the Rutgers tunnel, so 2 or 3 trains could go via the tunnel. Estimated cost $600 million.
That connection should have been made years ago. It would have really come in handy now. I understand there was a proposal to do just that in the late 60s, but it was ignored.
Larry,
Do you have information on how much ridership fell on the different lines? I'd think that those routes going over the bridge now (B, D and Q) haven't been diverted and their ridership wouldn't have fallen. But I have no specific data and you apparently do, including information on falling house prices. It would be educational to us all if you would be able to post information on the neighborhoods where housing prices fell, along with the correlation to worsening train service. Also, are people also moving out of those neighborhoods and are they becoming abandoned?
You seem to have a good grasp of the demographics and financial elements with regard to transit service changes (read that as declines) and I'm sure we'd all be enlightened with your information.
Could you answer this question? I'm sure I read a posting some months ago about an increase in service on the B line (to seven minute headways around peak periods, down from about 10 minute headways). If my memory is correct, what do you attribute this service improvement to? Is it due to increased ridership in the Bronx and upper Manhattan rather than in Brooklyn? Or?
Thanks.
Mike Rothenberg
I suspect that during the past years there's been an increase in express bus patronage from some of the areas served by the Southern Division lines. As the Manhattan Bridge problem has made the subway ride worse for many riders, perhaps they've found the one-seat express bus trip more tolerable, especially once the fare went down from $4 to $3.
I spoke to one such person who used express buses, and yes, the comfort and speed of the express buses makes the extra fare more than worth it. Glad to see the TA noticed this as well.
In The NY Daily News Thursday June 3, page 5, ''Anguish not Anger'', and the NY Post Thursday June 3, page 20, ''Why was attacker free?''is an article about Edgar Riveria who lost his legs when he was pushed in front of the #6 train on April 29.
After the good folks read these two articles, your excellent thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Eugene Moreau , my great grandfather died as a result of a tunnel accident in New York. I am trying to determine when the accident happened and what information you may have on this man.
Jim,
Sorry to hear it. Unfortunately you're probably in the wrong place. This is not the New York City Transit Authority's web site.
However, you can probably find some information about him by checking: The Social Security Death Index at http://www.ancestry.com/ssdi/advanced.htm has death dates going back many years. The New York Times might have an obituary index you could search- if he died in a NYC subway/tunnel accident it is probably newsworthy as well once you knew the date of the accident. The NYCT Assistance line might be able to point you to old personnel records (718-330-3322). The New York Public Library (http://www.nypl.org) has a research service that might be able to do some of the legwork for you, for a fee.
Hope this helps,
-Dave
will go on sale at stations below on 6/14/1999 at 0700 (7am)
Broadway/Lafayette. Bleecker- BDFQ6
Prince--NR
47-50 BDFQ
23,28 ---6
42--- BDFQ
72---1239
59/Lex ----456NR
51/Lex-46EF
(I have grouped stations with free transfers)
Do you mean WABY.com the NY internet radio station or is WBAY something new?
--Mark
Live from new job :)
Or maybe EBAY.com?
-Hank
[Do you mean WABY.com the NY internet radio station or is WBAY something new?]
I'd say the former, as wbay.com is the site of a Wisconsin television station that presumably has little interest in MetroCards :-)
Nice going Mark! You passed my test :-) it IS WABY
Ahh ... just seeing if we're all paying attention .... well, we are! :)
--Mark
Was going over some old copies of The Street Railway Review last night. No. 15 (1976) has a cover of June 1937 Steinway Lines #1680 with a NY & Queens County Birney far behind (both later to become Queens Surface Corp. bus routes). The text says "1680 ... is on lease from the Third Ave. Ry System ...". I'm of the belief that Steinway Lines was acquired by the Salzberg family in 1942. Did Harry/Murry buy it from 3rd Ave ?
P.S. The Salzbergs' bought Queens-Nassau (NY & Queens County) in 1932.
Mr t__:^)
I'm working on a story about someone travelling on the D train from downtown Manhattan to Yankee Stadium. I'm trying to find out when that line opened. And the D does stop at 125th St, correct?
--Phil Mintz
Yes, the D Train does stop at 125th Street (& St Nicholas Ave).
The sections of the D Train that one may travel from W 4th St to Yankee Stadium opened as follows:
- W 4 St to 59th St (Columbus Circle) - 12/15/1940
- 59th St - 145th St - 9/10/1932
- 145th St - Yankee Stadium (actually Bedford Park Blvd) 7/1/1933.
Happy writing!
--Mark
Just remember, if you're headed to Yankee Stadium during PM rush hours, you'll have to take B train to get off at 161st St. The northbound D doesn't stop there then. It wallows past at about 25 mph, if that.
Your reference to 125th St. reminds me of when the R-32s first appeared on the D in December of 1967. We were heading back to Port Authority from Macy's and took a D train of R-32s to 59th St. As we got off, I heard the conductor announce: "Next stop on this train will be 125th St." He did not say, "Stand clear and watch the closing doors." Man, did I want to stay on that train! At that point, I had been on an express jaunt up CPW on a D of R-1/9s a few weeks earlier. Unfortunately, we were pressed for time, so we changed to an A to 42nd St. I watched that D train leave the station, and by the time the last car whipped past, it was flying!
Not sure when your story takes place but other usefull tid bits that might be incorperated include:
The Yankee Stadium stop has been refered to as 161st and River Avenue.
Also, the 155th Street Stop in Manhattan, was the sight of the Polo Grounds where the NY Giants played untill they moved to San Fran in 1958. I believe that the Mets played there too beginning in 1962 when they joined the National League until Shea Stadium was built in the Mid 60's and the Polo Grounds were torn down.
Once about 10 years ago I was going to Yankee Stadium and when the train stopped at 155 the conductor announced it as "Polo Grounds" I thought that was great.
Another thing about the subway and Yankee Stadium is, they use to give out free return rides on Sundays. It was a blue slip that looked like a bus transfer and entitled the bearer to a free ride. If you went to the game on Sunday 40'000 people would pack the station where they would just leave the station doors open for crowds to file past waving these blue slips.
About as far downtown in Manhattan as you might get on a "D" train is Chinatown - Grand Street and Chrystie. Steve is right - rush-hour "D"s do NOT stop at 161st St-River Avenue (that's what the name tablet says). Get off at 145th and take the "B". And the "D"s lumber along at 20-25MPH thru 161st St - think that a Grade Timer's there, along with probably a 20MPH yellow sign for a nifty 90-degree curve east of the station. It's not ALL the R68's fault.
Wayne
I've been told that when the Yankees have a weekday night game at home, the D train stops running express in the Bronx earlier than usual and makes local stops so that fans headed for the game on the D train do not have to change for the B at 145th Street. I don't know the details about this, but when I headed to a Yankee game last year and hit 145th Street around 6:30 pm, the train was on the local track and the conductor made a special announcement that those headed to Yankee Stadium should stay on the train.
This is true. The Dispatcher at 59 Master Tower will check if there is a Yankee game. If so she will begin telling Northbound D's to accept the local line up, make local stops.
Isn't there access to the center track north of the station? I know there's a southbound connecting track, but is there one Northbound? If so, maybe they can go express after 161st. Maybe I'll leave early and check it out on my way to the game. Let's go METS!
-Hank
I believe that there is an xover to the southbound track for extra movements, to 59th St?
The switches at 161 on the D are south of the station. The next northbound switch to track C 3-4 (middle) is north of 167. These switches are not controlled by 59 master. I am not aware of any master tower on the Concourse line, so I presume these switches are controled by local towers that are not staffed regular. 59 master tower controls the interlockings from 145 both levels to just south of 59st.
Mike Lyons, There is a tower at 167th street just north of the southbound local track that controls the crossovers at that station. The tower at 167th street is staffed during the rush hour and if there is any track work from 167th street to 145th street.
Their used to be a tower at the south end of the downtown local at 161st street, but is now boarded up due to workers fixing up the station at 161st and Yankee Stadium B and D line.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Why did the MTA change the B and C in upper Manhattan and the Bronx?
Paul: The line from 145 St-205 St opened on July 1,1933,however the initial service was provided by the "C Concourse-8 Av Exp" and the "CC Concourse-8 Av Local." The "D Concourse-6 Av Express did not start running until December 15,1940.
Larry,RedbirdR33
David, your E-mail address is not working. I have a question to ask of Mr. Train Control.
An article from the New York Times was sent to me. It's about the wreck at Roosvelt Av. in the 70's.
That's not what I'm interested in though. The article also contains a track diagram. It shows a switch from 1 to 3 at Woodhaven Blvd. Was there ever one there? I know several of those local stations have rooms at the end of platforms with windows. They could have been towers at one time.
Northern Blvd still does.
Check your archives and let me know. And fix your E-mail!
I know there is an open area north of Woodhaven blvd that ends with a wall.It appears that some alternate route was planned at one time.You could see it from D1 and D2 tracks.
There are trackways west of 63rd Drive which branch off the local tracks. They are similar to the trackways east of Roosevelt Ave. Both would have linked up to the Winfield Spur which would have led to the Rockaways via the Central Ave. line. Provision was made for both a direct Manhattan-bound connection to the Queens line, as well as a terminal at Roosevelt Ave. In addition, Woohaven Blvd. was designed to be converted to an express station, if needed.
I have a question which may have been asked before but I am new to this site so I have never seen it.
Why is it that there is a 10 car string of R62's that run on the #2 tracks in the Bronx but these cars are labeled to be in #1 or #3 service? I have noticed that this train(s) runs both in the day and in the early evenings. It doesn't stop at any station but pauses temporarily at 180th Street.
Also, I was wondering if anyone had any information as to when the R142 cars would begin revenue service. Have they started to arrive from Kawasaki and Bombardier, or have they been built yet? Thank You.
There R62A'S are from the No.6 Line and is used mainly for OPTO on the No.5 Dyre Ave Shuttle. That train may run during Rush Hours if they need the train. I have seen that train with No.2 signs.
The #1/#9 and #3 trains don't have a car wash in there yard which is 240th yard (1 train yard) and 148th st yard (#3 yard ) so they go to the #2 yard (239th yard ) to get clean or wash during the day
The No.1/9 Trains use 207 Street car wash. But some No.1 trains may go to 239 Yard.
The R-142s haven't been delivered yet, and won't be for a while. Prior threads have much more information on the subject that I won't rehash here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When did the Manhattan Els start coming down and why? Was it because of the growing subway service or politics?
The first el to go was the 6th Ave line, in 1938. Then the 9th in 1940. Both became redundant when the IND opened on 8th Ave. (1932) and 6th Ave. (1940). The Second Ave el was torn down in 1942. The 3rd Ave el was slated to be torn down at the same time, but was kept running during the war because of the massive need for mass transit at the time. It was finally demolished in 1955, with the understanding that the 2nd Ave. subway would replace it, which it still hasn't to this day. Els were always hated by those who lived around them, and were gleefully torn down as soon as a subway line was available to take its place or ridership dropped to a level that further service became unwarranted. Once the city took control of all 3 subway divisions almost all els that couldn't support modern subway cars were shut down and demolished.
Believe it or not, Manhattan El trackage started shrinking by 1930.
The first segment to be dismantled was the 42nd St GCT branch from 3rd Ave. I have a question about this one. Was this the original terminal before the structure was continued north?, just as the 6th ave terminus at 58th St.
The original 6th Ave stub terminal station at 58th St was eliminated.
The 34st Branch of the 3rd Ave line that served the LIRR ferries was removed about 1931.
The entire 6th, 9th and uptown portion of the 2nd Ave El were demolished from 1939 to 1940 with the completion of the 8th Ave Subway. The 2nd Ave line was a direct line to the 39/40 Worlds Fair via the Queensboro Bridge. Hence, that and the downtown portion remained for a while. The remainder of the 2nd Ave line was demolished in 1941. However, both southern terminals remained, South Ferry & City Hall. The Park Row Terminal of the Brooklyn Bridge BRT/BMT lines also was demolished during WWII.
The 3rd Ave Line was cut back to Chatham Sq and the City Hall Branch was demolished in 1951. The remainder of the 3rd Ave line in Manhattan was in service until 1955.
By 1956, the only trace of the Manhattan Els remained at the Polo Grounds at 155th St. And Technichally, this was not a Manhattan el structure as the original terminal was built for the New York & Northern Railroad which came across the river there and the elevated railway shared the terminal.
There may have been some earlier designs to have the NY&N use the 9th Ave elevated structure but that was was blocked by the financial interestes of the time.
The same may hold true for the original crossing of the Harlem River by what was the original Suburban line that was controlled by the New Haven Railroad that had a terminal at 129th St.
No - the entire Manhattan portion of the 3rd Ave El opened in 1878, including the branch to 42/GCT. Through trains operated to 129th St. The Bronx portion came later.
The reason I asked that question, is that in lieu of a difinitive history of the 3rd Ave, I only have a 1 paprgaph note in an ELECTRIC RAILROADS (of rhe ERA) from 1956 that states that the line opened on Aug 26, 1878 identifying the stations north from South Ferry to 42nd St. The branch to GCT diverged at this point. The mainline continued north. The stations north to 67th St opened Sept 16, 1878. The stations north to 89th St opened Dec 9, 1878, and finally those north to 129th St opend on Dec 30, 1878.
I have the dates of the branch closings mentioned earlier.
Dec 6 ,1923 - 42nd St / GCT Branch closes.
June 16, 1924 - 58th St Spur closes.
June 14, 1930 - 34th St Branch closes.
It was never intended that Grand Central be the northern terminal of the el,rather it might be better to say that 42 St/3 Av was the first northern terminal and that a branch was opened at the same time between that station and Grand Central. Looking at a track map from the period 1893-1903 there were switches located north of 42 St on the main for turning trains. The Grand Central branch while it had two tracks only had a single track connection going southbound into the southbound track at 42 St. There was no direct access from the northbound track into the branch.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS A fourth branch closing was the Harlem River Branch on 4/14/24
If the Harlem River Branch was the connection to the New Haven RR,
that line remained to 1956. I walked up that structure from the NH yard while the entire Bronx structure remained to the river (till 1959/60). The bridge was dismantled as part of the Manhattan demolition.
I was refering to passenger service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In most cases, end of service means end of (El) structure.
However, the Willis Ave connector structure to/from the White Plains Road line remained (in non revenue service) until 50/51 long after the 2nd Ave line ceased operations in 1939 and no service from the 3rd Ave line was substituted, unless there was WWII service that I am not aware of.
In the case of the Brooklyn Els half of the system came down with the closing of the Brooklyn Bridge line. Only the Myrtle and Lexington Ave El lines remained. The Lexington came down in the 50/51 reducion of NY City Elevated lines and branches. The 3rd Ave line south of Chatham Sq, the City Hall Branch, the Bronx Park Branch (on the White Plains Road Line also). I think the IRT/BMT dual service in the Queens lines ended then also. I do not know what else happen in Brooklyn transit at that time except for a drastic reduction of the trolley lines and the complete abandonment of the Third Ave Railway (trolley) lines in the Bronx any all Manhattan trolley lines.
This was obviously one of the worst times for NYC rail transit except for the years when the 2nd, 6th, and 9th Ave Els came down along with the Brooklyn Bridge line, most of the Fulton Ave El all of the 5th / 3rd Ave line in Brooklyn. Someone will have to tell me the rationale for keeping th Myrtle and Lexington Ave lines, and not keeping the Brooklyn Bridge connection of this system. The 5th/3rd Ave line was replaced by the 4th Ave Subway. The Fulton Ave line was replaced by the IND subway beneath it.
Oh, here is a question I forgot to ask about the Franklin Ave line.
Back when there was a place called Ebbets Field, how much revenue did that place generate for the Franklin Ave line, or was that the reason it remained even after being cut from the Fulton Ave El, and, also as a southern route to Ebbets Field and Prospect Park.
While I am going on,,,,
This brings up an earlier posting of mine from last year, that is, dual third rails on the IRT White Plains (Westchester Ave) and the Jerome Ave line. I do not have the photographic evidence to back it up, but I believe that the Jerome Ave line north of the Sedgwick Ave junction (Polo Grounds shuttle / 9th Ave El) had dual third rails. Uncovered for the Elevated equipment, covered, (possibly a transition time expediency) for the subway equipment.
Since the 2nd/3rd Ave operations up the Westchester Ave line are well before my time, I have to assume that there was open or dual third rails on that line, although I have not seen any photographic or written evidence of open third rail on that structure. The history of the Westchester Ave line indicates that 2nd/3rd Ave El Trains used the line (via the 149th St connector) before the Harlem river tunnel(s) were completed as may be the case with the Jerome Ave / 9th Ave El Line tunnel. The other possibility is that light(er) weight subway equipment with subway shoes used the subway/el structures. However, that seems unlikely, because when the Bronx 3rd Ave line was converted to covered third rail, the outboard wooden guides had to be knocked off the exposed el third rails to allow the subway cars with subway shoes to operate during the transition time. By the way, most of the former wooden el cars were stored on the center track from 161st St to Tremont Ave at that time also. I do have a 20's picture of subway type (composite cars, I guess) with overrunning third rail shoes operating on the 3rd Ave El.
We have discounted the use of dual third rails on the BMT lines.
However, I still have this nagging memory of dual third rails on the Jerome Ave Line.
I believe that one factor that led to the elimination of service over the Brooklyn Bridge was a devastating fire near Sands Street in 1944.
Didn't train service over the Brooklyn Bridge end in the 1930's?
Elevated train service over the Brooklyn Bridge ended in 1944. Streetcar service was then moved to the tracks formerly used for rapid transit. (The streetcars had been in the middle lanes; they moved to the inner ones.) Around 1950 the trolleys were discontinued too, and all lanes on the bridge were converted to auto use.
I'm not sure about a fire at Sands Street in 1944; perhaps someone else has information about this. I assume the Myrtle Avenue el was kept to provide local service in Brooklyn. The MTA, in one of its earliest policy decisions, replaced the el with buses in 1969.
I'm not totally certain but it seems that the fire was an excuse to close what surpirisngly had become a little used line. Also as it occurred during the war it may not have been possible for the BOT to obtain the steel to effect repairs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The primary access to the bridge was from the Fulton and 5th Av. lines. Myrtle and Lexington trains had to run almost parallel to the bridge and make a U turn to reach the bridge tracks. With the other routes gone the remaining two lines probably transferred more passengers to the subways than they carried over the bridge - thus the closing of the more efficient lines led to the closing of the bridge tracks, and the later cutback to Myrtle & Bridge.
I think the various subway tunnels built in the years after the Brooklyn Bridge was completed had taken much of the traffic away from the bridge trains.
And just remember as I said before: The REAL reason the 3rd Ave el was torn down: after KIng Kong wrecked a portion of it, the city being in the midst of the depression and with LaGuardia as mayor, decided it would cost too much to repair, so down it came!
REMEMBER YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!
Mike H.
King Kong destroyed the Sixth Avenue El on his way to the Empire State Building, NOT the Third Avenue El.
IIRC, the structure King Kong destroyed looked like 3rd Avenue, not the very distinctive 6th Avenue structure.
This is not as bad an error as scenes in current movies supposed to be in New York but with Toronto subway cars.
BTW, I understand King Kong got a lifetime TBTA pass from Bob Moses for his work. Too bad he wasn't around to enjoy it.
POLITICS WAS INVOLVED
The IND was deliberately designed to draw riders from the 6th and 9th Avenue els along with the Fulton St. el in Brooklyn. The IND second system's 2nd Av. line targeted the east side els in Manhattan, but was never built. The takeover of the IRT and BMT by the city included condemnation of the 9th Av. el, the northern portion of the 2nd Av. el, the inner portion of the Fulton el and the 5th Av - Bay Ridge el also in Brooklyn. This was all designed to make the IND the most heavily used part of the system and spur its further development.
Today, the loss of the 3rd Av. el in 1955 is still being felt since the 2nd Av. subway is still mostly onm the drawing board.
The goals of the city in 1930 have never been met, and the IRT, without the two els, still has a monopoly on east side traffic - too much of it!
Also from a political standpoint, Mayor LaGuardia did not care for elevated lines. He was only too happy to see them dismantled.
While on the MTA site, I noticed that while it doesn't go at all times, the B serves all four boroughs with subway service. Always Manhattan and Brooklyn, middays and weekends to Queens and rush hours to the Bronx.
Added to the list of the E and C(I think).
Just an observation.
While your observation is correct in that the B does serve all four boroughs in some capacity, it doesn't traverse all four on the same route the way the C used to. In other words, if a B train starts from Bedford Park and goes to Coney Island, it will bypass Queens altogether. If it's operating between 21st-Queensbridge (or 145th St.) and Coney Island, it never makes it to the Bronx.
E trains never ran to the Bronx. However, back in the days when they continued onto Brooklyn, they would begin and end their route in Queens if they terminated at Lefferts Blvd or the Rockaways.
The "E" train runs from Jamaica Center in Queens to the World Trade Center in lower Manhattan. Brooklyn is not even a part of the equation, so to speak.
Regarding my historical question about the opening of the D train to Yankee Stadium, I should have also asked if the train was known as the D train back in the 1930s.
Phil Mintz
Yes, it was the D right from the beginning.
When the Concourse line opened in 1933, the 6th Ave. line didn't exist. There was a C express which lasted at least until 1940, although I understand it was still used as late as 1948.
The D made its debut with the opening of the 6th Ave. line in 1940.
The original IND letter code was such that both trunk lines in midtown Manhattan and the three northern branches each had a separate designation: single letter for express, double letter for local.
8th Ave: A, C, E
6th Ave: B, D, F
Washington Heights: A, B
Concourse: C, D
Queens: E, F
Until the 6th Ave. line opened, naturally, only the 8th Ave. markings were used.
"Yes, it was the D right from the beginning."
Not in the 1930s. In 1933, when the Concourse line opened it was served only by CC trains, at all times. In 1940 when the 6 AVE opened the D began it's service from Church Avenue (modern F) to 205 Street.
No, the D went to Hudson Terminal (today's WTC) and the F went to Church until the D was extended out on the Culver in 1954.
At some time during the 1940s, the D went to Church Ave. I'm not sure of the dates, or when the 6th Ave. service to Church Ave. was switched to the F. It remained F until service was extended to Coney Island over the old BMT Culver line in Oct., 1954. In Nov., 1967, when the Chrystie St. connection opened, the D train was switched to the Brighton line via the new connection, and the F went back to serving the "Culver" line.
-- Ed Sachs
Here is the final reminder that Friday, June 4th, is the date of SubTalk's Field Trip to the Newark Subway via PATH. At this point, there is no need to tell us you are coming if you haven't alread done so. Just meet us at the PATH World Trade Center station before 6:00 pm or at the Subway entrance at Penn Station Newark by 6:30 pm. See the Upcoming Events section of this site for more details. I look forward to seeing many fellow SubTalkers there.
I will be at WTC! Can't wait to finally meet everybody.
Have a good time everyone... I'll be there in sprit! At least I'm bringing you good weather for the field trip!
You certainly are! I'm glad the heat and humidity are giving us a break- at least for today. It was no fun riding the trains this past week.
See you on board-
Unfortunately, there's a good chance I will probably not be able to make it after all :(
But I'll try.
Sid, I will deffinitely be there ! Have my pass for the #7 in my pocket and several dollar bills for trip from WTC.
Mr t__:^)
Well the M4s are becomming more frequent, and in my opinion reliable. The last several el trips have featured trains running without incident (i.e. door-failure, system failure, or station-overshoot).
Tonight I noticed something I did not ever pick up on before. At 15th Street, I noticed a new sign below the car-stop markers that read
Right
Doors
===>
These are aligned with the driver cab... wouldn't this be something easier to have in cab? These appear to be newer signs, they are still bright yellow, but are in view/reach of people on the platforms. Is this due to OPTO or simply signs finally replaced from a long time ago?
Well on the subject of signs, I have also noticed the display signs vary on the messages (at least the ones facing out) I have seen these variations...
Frankfrd-All | Philadelphia
All: 69th | Blue Line
Market- | Frankford | Line
SEPTA | 69th Street
I thought these were standardized signs, but can the operater add text? Oh well... the A/C is very nice in this heat. Is it time we start demanding the stations get A/C too? =)
The A/C is pleasant in this unusual heat we've been having. But I had a problem. I was on my way to school this morning. When we were about to pull out of 56th Street, the operator said "The train in front of us is having door problems, we'll be moving shortly".
We waited about 15 minutes and through 3 announcements before we moved. But that was the first incident in months. Hopefully by the time the last Budd car is gone, we'll have a reliable fleet to take their place.
Dont hold your breath!!!! This sort of thing happens a few times a day. Thats why they have they protect train of ALMOND JOYS sitting at Spring Garden.
These signs are new with the M-4's. I guess they're reminders to the operator to open the correct doors. I would think that any operator who's been down the line for at least one round trip would know where the doors should open, but...
Took a short trip on a Budd train yesterday afternoon. There are still a few out there (and this was midday!).
I've gotten the Budd cars three days in a row now, but the end car was always #812, so I'm guessing we're fewer then 10 Budd trains now?
I've heard that there are about a dozen Budd trains still around. The latest edition of Cinders says about 112 cars remain on the property in various stages of operability. If all 112 could run, this would result in 18 6-car trains with 4 cars to spare. With over 160 M-4's here and the hot weather we've had, I would bet that 20-25 M-4 trains are being pressed into service in the peaks.
I've seen M-4 #1172 and have still only seen Budd #812(the "Blue Line" that's painted on the back has some sort of white streak, you'll notice).
I had a very unusual experience on the LIRR today. I long ago found out that air conditioning on the LIRR could simply mean holding the end-doors open with ti-wraps (all of the smart conductors carry them). However, today was unique, ever for the LIRR. My train, a 6-car express, had door trouble. The middle pair would not open. After leaving Jamaica Station, the Conductor made the following announcement:
"For those of you in cars 9?29 and 9?30, the fact that the doors in your car did not open in Jamaica should indicate that the doors in your car will probably not open for the rest of the trip. I would suggest that if you want to get off, you walk foward or back one car!"
This announcement was repeated before each station stop. Mind you, this train was a peak train at the height of the PM rush hour. I could imagine what would happen if the TA tried to do this on the E line
I've so far been on LIRR trains that:
Have had no air conditioning.
Have had no HAVAC system running whatsoever 9I like this in the winter - nice and QUIET.
Have had door trouble of various sorts
Entire trains not air conditioned.
Entire trains not air conditioned or lit - the only functional things are the cars were the doors and traction.
Smelly diesel cars (par for the course - the ones with HEP gens under them never vented the exhaust anywhere but below the car).
Flat wheels
Flatter wheels
Speed control not functional.
Speed control not kicking out at 80 - The record for a train I was on was 87 between Bellrose and Jamacia.
Oddly enough, I've never gotten totally stuck, or had an overshoot on the LIRR, but both happened to me on Metro-North. Go figure.
MN crews also know the A/C on the M cars is lousey - I've been on many trains at GCT where only one leaf of one set of doors per car was opened. Amazing the difference it made too. BTW - one engineer told me the new haven car A/Cs work better on 13kv than 600v power. Makes sense.
A 6 car train at the height of the rush hour?Lousy!
< A 6 car train at the height of the rush hour? Lousy! >
On a lot of commuter systems, a 6-car train of 85 foot cars would be gigantic.
Sometimes when going home from the Rangers games at MSG,a train would pull in with 8 cars and 2 cars closed off.They always underestimate how many cars are needed.There should always be 10 car trains operating out of Penn Station.
< Sometimes when going home from the Rangers games at MSG,a train would pull in with 8 cars and 2 cars closed off.They always underestimate how many cars are needed. >
The LIRR has finally come down on train personnel who close off cars just because the trainmen don't want to walk the extra cars or want to reserve "private" cars for RR personnel. The current non-rush standard is (I believe) six cars open if there are more than six in the train--if six or fewer, all cars open. In peak direction during rush hours, all cars open. This is backed up by train order.
Sometimes crew will keep a few cars closed if a big influx is expected at a particular station. I've seen this done of westbound Babylon trains when a crowd is expected to board at Jamaica. Then the extra rear cars are opened. This is all under the conductor's control.
I wonder what MNRR practice is.
< There should always be 10 car trains operating out of Penn Station >
I don't think there is enough equipment for all Penn trains to have 10 cars.
Metro-North doesn't seem to keep cars closed like the LIRR sometimes does. I won't say it never happens, as I've not ridden that many late-night or weekend trains, but it's certainly not as commonplace as on the LIRR.
Perhaps the original post did not make my point clearly enough. I was not referring to a train where 2 cars were kept closed by choice. The train left Jamaica around 5:25 PM with the doors of the first two and the last two cars operating normally. On the midle pair, the doors did not open, presumably due to electrical failure. Customers were riding in these cars. They were simply told that when they wanted to get off, they had to walk foward or back one car. My point was, At what point is a B/O train a B/O train on the LIRR.
< At what point is a B/O train a B/O train on the LIRR. >
Given the facts in your original post, the LIRR did the right thing. LIRR trains don't operate as frequently as subway trains. I would rather have a train with non-working doors in some cars then be put off the train to wait for a later one, which would then have to take the load of two trains.
The fact that the LIRR seems to take such a casual attitude toward maintenance is another issue.
What does B/O stand for anyway?
B/O stands for 'Bad Order' or defective.
In case of LIRR customers it means what it has always stood for with the lack of A/C.
"the LIRR did the right thing."
Perhaps they did. Like everyone else on the train, I wanted to get home. However, once the conductor presses the open button, various relays in each car pull it or drop out. Since the nature of the failure (a sticking relay?) was not known, the possibility of the doors 'popping open' en route exists. This possibility had always lead to the NYCT removing trains from service - electing to err on the side of safety.
< Since the nature of the failure (a sticking relay?) was not known, the possibility of the doors 'popping open' en route exists. This possibility had always lead to the NYCT removing trains from service - electing to err on the side of safety. >
Once a door is determined defective, the LIRR crew cuts it out. It's alot easier to pull a train "for safety" when you're running a 4 or 6 minute headway.
I've waited as much as 20 minutes on Babylon platform when a regularly scheduled express train had to be replaced with another from Babylon Yard because of a problem. But at least there I have the option of taking the local.
"Cutting Out" a door refers to disabling a single door on a car due to its failure to close or lock properly. As Steve describes the problem,two entire cars in the middle of a 6 car consist failed to open. The fact that the doors on the cars adjacent to these opened would tend to rule out a trainline problem. The problem,IMHO would then lie in the door control systems of these two cars;they're either not receiving or not responding to the "door open" command. A stuck relay might very well be the cause. The relay might later become "unstuck" due to vibration causing the entire car(s) to open with the train in motion.Not a happy thought. One way around this might be to disable the system entirely on the cars in question (is there a D8 or "Door Control" circuit breaker?)
Allowing passengers to remain in such cars would be a matter of LIRR policy. The lawsuit potential is enormous,what with passengers crossing between cars and no means of opening the doors on those cars in the event of an emergency. I don't mean to bring up the lawyer thing again,but I think they'd smell blood in such a case.
But the way Steve explained it, the crew did not cut the doors out. They left them as is. Maybe at one station the doors would decide to open, next station the doors may not open. The door opening relays ae energized when the door opening buttons are pushed. If the doors fail to open at a station, the door opening relays are still energized while the train is in motion between stations. Hence the possibility, as slight as it is, of a door or doors opening enroute. This is unsafe operation. It is not done this way at the TA. If one car of a NYC subway car fails to open, Control Center will tell the crew to isolate the car (cut all doors out) or take the whole train out of service. Even though LIRR frequency is much longer than in the subway, customer safety must never be compromised.
What is a HEP generator?
Why are the trains run ideling for such a long time?
Why are the trains double ended? The ACMU don't have controls I assume.
HEP stands for 'Head End Power' This is a generator that provides trainline electricity for lights, signs, doors, HVAC, etc. It replaced (on long-distance trains) steam-generated heat and A/C, which was left over from the steam days, when it was logical. Early diesels built for passenger service had steam boilers installed. Amtrak finished rebuilding coaches to use HEP in the early 80s. (Cars known as the 'Heritage Fleet')
I can't say why they idle. As for them being double-ended, the GP38 is (usually) the propulsion, and the FA is unpowered. It is called a 'Power Pack' because it contains only controls (for push-pull service) and an HEP generator (which the GP38s lack) Until recently, the LIRR had no diesel coaches with operating positions. Some of the new bi-levels have control cabs, and diesel trains have the locomotive facing east (with new cars). Dual-mode trains (Direct to Penn Station from Diesel Territory) run with a loco on each end, due to restrictions placed on them by Amtrak.
-Hank
Here in Chicago, the trains generally don't idle at the downtown terminals (termini?), but are hooked up to station electrical power. Then the engines are turned on a few minutes before departure. If you board the train at least fifteen minutes before departure, you know that the change-over has occurred because the ventilators and lights, except for emergency lighting, go out for a couple of seconds and then suddenly (and with a loud WOOSH!) come back on again.
Even so, the locomotives are always on the end of the train farthest away from the station building, so that as little exhaust as possible goes into the building. Thus, Metra trains always operate with the locomotive faced away from downtown Chicago, loco at the rear on inbound trains and on the head-end on outbound runs.
What's the deal with the lights in the Brighton and Montague subway tunnels? They used to have really cool, bright white lights. Now, they have reverted to yellow-orange lights again. Why are they doing this? Are they supposed to be more energy-efficient, or something?
- Lyle Goldman
Well I think the lighting in the 7 train tunnels (Steinway tunnels) is pretty shabby, just looks like regular white light bulbs.
I was on the N the other day, and their tunnels to Queens had blue and yellow lights, nice colors.
Not to mention the 7 station at GCT has got quite a few narrow spots on the platform.
In all the places where Mercury bulbs (the "cool white" had been installed, they are being replaced with compact flourescents. (same color as old incandescents, but brighter and much less wattage. Probably longer lasting as well. I noticed this beginning on Nassau St before the bridge closed. In a couple of weeks the whole line was done, including the old trolley terminal area. Lexington above 33rd is now mostly done. Apparently they can operate on the same ballast as the mercury's so all they had to do is change the bulb. I guess that's why they were replacing all those new mercury bulbs while so many other areas still have ther old incandescents.
I remember years ago when a bunch of TA officials were doing a presentation at the NY Div. ERA meeting, they mentioned that compact flourescent was what they wanted to go with. Propbably easier on the eyes, more efficient, etc.
Compact Flourescents last 10,000 hours (vs. 700 for incandescents) and produce the same light as incandescents on about 25% of the wattage.
Based on my observations of these de"light"ful lights, they are brighter than the incandescent bulbs AND the mercury-vapors. So bright they have to shade them.
Wayne
> Compact Flourescents last 10,000 hours (vs. 700 for incandescents) and produce the same light as incandescents on
> about 25% of the wattage.
And how are the Compact Fluorescents in relation to the white Mercury Vapor lights?
- Lyle Goldman
I noticed one day while riding a D train that the old tunnel leading from the north end of the Manhattan Bridge tracks to the Canal St. Station on the Broadway line was recently equipped with these new lights, even though there is no track, or trains going through that area anymore. Hmmm.....
I have two questions regarding the 7 train. I usually take the express, but at Queensboro the train slows quite a bit, and after Vernon it goes quite slow through the tunnel, it almost feels like they are coasting the trains into Manhattan.
Also what are, in your opinion, bad underground subway stations by design? I think the 7 train station at GCT having only one entrance, and many narrow sections to the platform can be quite inadequate when it's crowded.
Sometimes I'd rather get the N at Times Square and then transfer at Queensboro to avoid the hot, crowded 7 station at GCT but there will be fewer seats at Queensboro.
Safety is a factor in train speed through the tunnels. Usually there is a series of grade timers on the downhill to permit a quick stop near the bottom if an obstruction appears. Once the bottom is reached there is no restriction going uphill other than the balancing speed of the train, on which the grade has a significant impact. A good operator can play chicken with the last grade timer and get a good running start on the upgrade - of course he has got to be good or he gets tripped!
I plan on visiting Belmont Park tomorrow - driving to New Haven and then taking the MNCR, #7 and LIRR. If I go I will give an opinion on the #7 performance.
Poor subway station design .... I always thought Grand Street (B/D/Q) was poorly designed (and it's a more recent design) because the train is travelling downgrade entering the station and upgrade leaving the station, so it takes extra energy to stop and start the train. Stations like 7th Ave (Brooklyn D/Q) are designed "better" because the train is on an upgrade approaching the station and a downgrade leaving the station, thereby saving energy.
I understand that Grand Street is designed the way it is most likely because of its proximity to the Manhattan Bridge approach.
Alother station that often gets press because of its poor design is 72nd St on the West Side IRT (1/2/3/9) because of its very narrow platforms and even narrower staircases off the platform. You don't want a crowd forming there!
--Mark
I Heard That NYCTA And The PA Of NY/NJ Have Resurfaced To Extend "N" Astoria N And West To LGA Airport. In my opion this would be the best option to LGA From Downtown Brooklyn, Lower And Midtown Manhattan Then
Taking A MTA Bus North From Lower Manhattan To 125 St In Harlem Then Transfering To Route M60 East To LGA. It IS Safer To Travel By A Single Train To LGA The Transfer In Harlem Espelly At Night After Dark.
There were a couple of public hearings on various plans recently. One in Queens & the other in Manhattan. Search this site by key word to see more detail.
Mr t__:^)
As part of the JFK Airtrain approval, Pataki is giving $100 Million to design the LGA link.
So you heard $100 million just for a study and design too? I was hoping I was having a nightmare when I heard that. I just hope whatever consultant gets that contract pays a fair amount back into Pataki's campaign chest.
Neither way is safer than the other at night, because in this city regardless of statistics you have to be careful any where you go! The N train is a long run and if you are trying to say that riding this one train compared to riding a bus that travels through Harlem is safer, then you should think again. Crime happens anywhere at anytime! I ride the M60 at night and there are alot of people who use this line to get to work or to catch a flight our of LGA. In Manhattan catching the N train is not the best option for alot of people who live on the extreme West side where they have the 6th and 8th ave IND lines and the 7th Ave/Bway IRT systems and can take these lines to 110th Street or 116th Street or 125th Street and catch this bus to Airport. Once this plan goes through, if it goes through, I hope it attracts riders due to convienece and not due to ignorance.
Peace
DaShawn
Ill drink to that!!!!!!!!!! That like saying Ill go take the ferry to Staten Island,instead of taking the bus from Bay Ridge because I might feel uncomfortable in the neighborhood. Get real!!!!!!!
I just wanted to relate an experience I recently had on the M60 going from Columbia to Astoria, where I live. It was a Sunday night I believe, and I saw the M60 coming down the street so I figured I would take that rather than the tortuously long subway ride back to Astoria. Was I wrong!! The M60 went through Harlem at an extremely slow pace (traffic jams along the route) and I don't think we had even left Manahattan for half an hour. Then we hit the Triborough Bridge and that was jammed up like you wouldn't believe, and we creeped across that for about 45 minutes. I would guess it took almost 45 minutes longer to get home with that damn M60 than it would have taken to get home via the subway, and I'll never take the M60 from Manhattan again. I think that they are wasting resources by running that route at all, and they should instead just concentrate on running the M60 between the Astoria Blvd stop of the N line and LGA. Then subway riders could expect to be shuttled to the airport within a few minutes of having arrived at that station, and more people would consider taking the subway to the airport. As it is now, it is a big silly waiting game for the M60, which only comes every 15 or 20 minutes. Who the hell has the time for so much waiting around? The fact that the airport is so poorly served by public transit guarantees that the terminals will be jammed with taxis and car services. It's an embarrassment to the City of New York that there is no train service to airport, but perhaps even more of an embarrassment that the bus service is so poor. My rant for the day!!
Due to illness, I won't be goping on today's (Ah-CHOO!) field trip.
Have fun! Looking forward to the report ....
--Mark
Anyone see yesterday's (Thursday 6/3) special section in the NY Daily News about the upcoming Mets - Yankees series? Take a look at the top center of the pages - you'll see an R-42 labeled as a D train! Talk about old file photos! The R-42 hasn't been assigned to the D train in years!! You'd think that there would be alternating pictures of the 4 and the 7 to represent both teams, but it looks like the News is partial to the Yankees in this series :)
--Mark
Did anyone catch the zoom shot of R-62 #1330 heading up a southbound 4 train at about the eighth inning of last night's game? It took several seconds before the doors opened.
At least the Mets won for once.
I did. You tinhk the Train Conductor was distracted by the crowd of the best best Sports fans in the country? GO METS!
Hey Stillwell-----How old are you and do you live in New York? I'm going to be in New York in early to mid August and plan on taking in some games at Shea before heading to Cooperstown. If it's convenient for you maybe we can take in a game or two and discuss both baseball and the subway system. Maybe there are Mets fans out there who would like to join us and we could make it a caravan. I plan on staying at the Pan-American Inn on Queens Blvd. Let me know Stillwell and anyone else out there. Have a good one.
Dissappointed that we could only take one of 3...
I bought a pin that has what look like R17s, signed as a 4 and 7 trains, with the signs on the blind side of the front. The 4 has a blue stripe, the 7 an orange stripe. I have to say, considering all the mets paraphenalia I was wearing at Yankee Stadium, the worst I got were some 'Mets Suck' screams. Friday night was nice, considering my usual experience at Yankee Stadium (unfortuneately, my girlfreind is a Yankee fan, so we go there occansionally) includes seeing fights and beer throwing in the stands. Friday night was nice, I didn't see any obvious signs of fighting, and no one threw beer at me (it helped that I was in row W of the upper tier) Sunday night, however, was typical. I've never seen so much fighting, and generally, it was all Yankee fans fighting with each other. One fight started in my section because someone laughed when a guy fell on the stairs! Big plus for Mets fans, that Yankee fans lost in the 70's- a view of the game from the paid area of a subway station!
-Hank
Hank: Do they sell those pins at Shea or only at Yankee Stadium? I will definately get one when I go to NY this August. Blue and Orange are my two favorite colors. I managed a Stan Musial-Semi pro baseball team for 12 years and we were called the San Gabriel Valley Mets. Naturally our colors were Orange & Blue. At least Sunday turned well for us as I was cheering up a sotrm in front of my tv set.
It seemed to me that most of the poeple leaving were Yankee fans. Of course, you can't see the playing field from the station platform anymore.
Hey, the Mets have won two straight! Break up the Mets!
Thursdays' Newsday has a couple articles on page 35 by Dan Janison and Victor Manuel Ramos about "... key City Council approval yesterday, effectively clearing the way for construction to begin this summer ... (of the link to Jamaica)"
Also included was "... separate mezzanine level ..." boy that will be convient :-(
And "... moving walkway for passengers from other train systems." accross the tracks ???
I recommend a "sky hook" system, you'ld just grab on and be wisked to that separate mezzanine.
Well at least it's moving forward & maybe it can be fixed after it's completed.
Copyright disclaimer: Have identified the publication & article authors and quoted less than 400 words.
Mr t__:^)
Yesterday evening, there was an unexpected power outage on the 2 and 5 at Jackson Av Station. I found myself stranded trying to get home from work at Times Sq. The 2s and 3s were affected, turning at 42 or 96th Streets. Going over to GCT on the S, 5 service wasn't any better. Those trains were going to terminate at 125 St, but after some confusion, the train headed to 149th and Grand Concourse. The conductor on the 5 didn't even know where his train was going, holding up our train. It didn't even terminate at GC! It went through to Dyre and I got off the damn thing. I walked home the rest of the way. At GC, the announcements said there was limited service to E180 and Dyre, but no 2 service to 241 St. You had to wait at E180 St to get a 2 to 241 St.
I gotta wonder what could have happened? TA personnel were stationed at Jackson Av for a while, I guess to investigate the cause of the incident. Hey, Pelham Bay Dave, any thoughts???
-Constantine
It was just signal problems on the southbound side of Jackson Avenue. All 2 and 5 (southbound) were terminating at East 180 Street. I was at East 180 Street when it all began, but Northbound service was fine at that time.
They had one here in Bklyn a couple of days ago... The whole J and L services were out. Anybody know anymore about this?
I don't no anything about it. It may have been after my tour.
This is a half-serious suggestion, but one that I would hope wouldn't be rejected out of hand.
Instead of a 2nd Avenue Subway, build a Third Avenue Line at least partly as an elevated (or aerial, or skyway, or other not-so-negative-as-elevated name).
You could hold contests for architectural excellence of both structure and stations. Standard subway cars would not necessarily have to be used. Perhaps light rail-type equipment of attractive European-style design could be purchased. The equipment should be profile and roadbed compatible with standard equipment so that it could also operate on current lines.
The biggest physical problem I foresee would be noise, but a lot more is known about transportation acoustics than when the original els were built. The biggest overall problem would be public opposition, but if John Lindsay could try to sell the massive Lower Manhattan Expressway as a wonderful goody called "Lomex," I'm sure something could be done to make this concept attractive.
Why do this? Much cheaper than a subway, more practical (because of grade crossings) than light rail. If the line enabled a cutback in buses on 3rd Avenue, or on 1st and 2nd, the pollution and traffic advantages might be significant. Wider sidewalks and trees might become much more practical. My fear is that, as things stand now, a 2nd Avenue SUBWAY may never be built, and if it is, it will soak up NYCTA capital funds for years, and for what? A two-track line relatively remote from midtown.
Also consider that an east side subway is not the be-all and end-all of New York's transit needs. We desperately need a structurally sound connection to Manhattan subways for the entire BMT Southern Division. We need a passenger/freight rail tunnel to Staten Island.
Just a comment before you folks starting eating this idea for lunch--I consider the above-ground idea and the 3rd Avenue idea to be two separate issues--but I think 3rd Avenue would be better.
There is a company called Futrex that proposes to offer a monorail system on a lease basis. The system can be dismantled and reused somewhere else if the lease is not renewed or converted to a purchase. It might be possible to offer a deal to East Siders: you can have a monorail up and running in two years, to be leased for ten years or so, until a subway is built. Then the monorail would be dismantled. However, how can you guarantee that the subway will actually materialize? I suspect a lot of residents would see this problem immediately, and condemn the monorail as a Trojan Horse. The temporary solution could become permanent. One could hope by that time residents would be so used to the system that they wouldn't mind keeping it. However, I don't think the MTA has enough credibility to have this offer accepted in the first place.
An El is an El is an El.
< An El is an El is an El. >
No. In Brooklyn and Chicago, it's an "L".
A song frequently heard on Third Avenue "NoEl,NoEl."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Also heard on Myrtle.
Is there no 14th Street in Chicago?
I don't know about Chicago, but I do know that there is no 14th Street in Philadelphia. Broad Street, with the ever so famous Broad Street Subway, is Philadelphia's "14th Street."
Check my webpage and more to come.
I just make a new webpage and check this page
Cool----but what is the 36st yard??????
36st Yard is in Brooklyn near 5th Ave next to Greenwood cemetery.
Sometimes, I imagine how I would announce stations if I were a NYC subway conductor. Here is how I would do it.
First, as we approach the station, I would yell out the name of the station and all the subway services to which one can transfer there. Then, after we stop and I open the doors, I would say the name of the train line, where the train is going, any important service announcements, and the name of the next stop. Then, I would say "All aboard! Stand clear of the closing doors." (I might insert a "please").
For example, if I were a conductor on a Manhattan-bound A train and we were approaching the High St./Brooklyn Bridge station in Brooklyn, I would say, "High Street, Brooklyn Bridge! You may transfer here for the C train." Then, when we are at the station, I would say, "'A' Express to Manhattan! This is the last stop in Brooklyn. Next stop,
Broadway/Nassau Street in Manhattan. All aboard! Stand clear of the closing doors!"
By the way, how come conductors don't say "All aboard!" any more? Many of them say "Step in," but I never hear "All aboard!" which says the same thing but a whole lot better. I think conductors should say "All aboard!"
- Lyle Goldman
Sometimes I imagine how I would write up a conductor for making improper announcements. If I were a Train service Stupidvisor, I would do it like this....
First I would demand your name and pass number, then throw you out of the cab and send you downtown to labor relations. They will be more than happy to furnish you with a no expenses paid vacation to your home for the next ten days.
Harry
Conductors are not allowed to make PA announcements while the train is entering a station.
We try to say please, but never "All aboard." What we say is strictly outlined in the Blue Book. A publication issued to all conductors outlining what can be said. A script if you will. That's not to say I haven't been known to crack wise occasionally.
Erik
> Sometimes I imagine how I would write up a conductor for making improper announcements. If I were a Train service
> Stupidvisor, I would do it like this....
> First I would demand your name and pass number, then throw you out of the cab and send you downtown to labor
> relations. They will be more than happy to furnish you with a no expenses paid vacation to your home for the next ten
> days.
> Harry
Harry, what is so improper about what I said? And if you were in charge, would you REALLY be such a Fascist about it? I am aware that I do not know the rules of being a conductor, but you don't have to ridicule me.
> Conductors are not allowed to make PA announcements while the train is entering a station.
> We try to say please, but never "All aboard." What we say is strictly outlined in the Blue Book. A publication issued to
> all conductors outlining what can be said. A script if you will. That's not to say I haven't been known to crack wise
> occasionally.
> Erik
If conductors have a "script," then why do they all say different things? Several years ago, I had a conductor on a morning F train to Manhattan that did not make any announcements at all! A couple of times he would yell at people who were holding the doors, so I knew the P.A. system worked. However, he seemed to continue on that way for weeks. He should have gotten into trouble (and I should have reported him). Also, if you can "crack wise," and that old conductor on the #1 line could make all sorts of interesting announcements, why can't a conductor say "All aboard!"? I would like to hear more about that publication you refer to.
By the way, if I can't make announcements while the train is entering the station, then I would make those announcements before the train entered the station, or whenever most conductors announce the station.
- Lyle Goldman
A recent bulletin prohibits us from making any announcements at all when the train is moving. Obstesibly this is to keep the conductor's attention focused on the train and what side the doors are on, etc. But that's another thread.
Harold's not being totaly outrageous with what he said either. TA is extremely intolerant. I can say a few comments over the PA. A lot of us do. But then again those of us that do know where and when. AM rush in IND Queens is NOT the place to do so. I think you can figure out the rest.
For some reason you do get away with more in the PM's. I used to be fond of saying this at WTC in the evenings. People after a hard day at work can laugh for some reason, whereas in the morning they're grumpy.
"Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen. This is your Captain speaking. Welcome aboard. If you would please return your seats backs and tray tables to their upright positions and fasten your seatbelts, we're ready for takeoff."
That would always get a good laugh. You could hear all up and down the platform. I'd follow up with:
"Our schduled destination today is the lovely Island of Jamaica. Unfortunately this one is only in Queens. Our cruising altitude will be 40 feet......underground. scheduled arrival at****"
This too would elicit quite a chuckle.
I gave it up one day when arriving at Parsons. The dispatcher told me I had a phone call. Seems a Superintendent had riden some of the way and wasn't impressed. Told me that it was very funny, but that next time I'd find myself not laughing.
The blue book is a small booklet with everything we are supposed to say in almost every situation.
If you like come on my train one day and I'll give you a copy.
Erik
That's great Erik!
Last year there was a severe thunderstorm over Valley Stream, moving due east. The anchorman on WCBS asked me where it was headed, and I said, "Next stop, Rockville Center. Followed by Baldwin, Freeport, Merrick, Bellmore, Wantaugh, Seaford, Massapequa, Massapequa Park, Amityville, Copaigue, Lindenhurst, and Babylon. Change at Babylon for Bay Shore, Islip..." you get the idea!
Then there was the time I was riding the Paris Metro, and a stranger asked me (in English) how to get to the Eifel Tower. Recognizing the thick Lawn Guyland accent, I mentioned the route, then said... "Change at Jamaica!"
> A recent bulletin prohibits us from making any announcements at all when the train is moving. Obstesibly this is to keep
> the conductor's attention focused on the train and what side the doors are on, etc. But that's another thread.
> Harold's not being totaly outrageous with what he said either. TA is extremely intolerant. . . .
You mean you are not allowed to make ANY announcements while the train is moving any more? When are they supposed to announce the stations?
From what you say, it seems like the TA does not care much about the best interests of the passengers. They can't say anything while the train is moving, and they can only say very little while the train is at a stop. What if there is some very important information that must be announced to the passengers? Why must a good conductor be punished for helping people? The TA has gotten totally out of line!
What did we come to America and fight all those wars for, anyway!
- Lyle Goldman
If there IS important information to be given to the public they make the anouncements as long as his/her cab is not moving within the boundaries of the station platform. Entering, he/she must be observing the conductor's board and leaving he/she must be observing for the possible dragging equippment/customers. Pure and simple. C/Rs can make all the important PA announcements when the train is stopped at the proper position in the station or while the train is between stations, moving or not.
The most recent of bulletins concerning announcements states that we are allowed to make the routine cycle of announcements only stopped in the station with the doors open.
Delay announcements are ussually made when the train is stopped between stations.
I'm glad to see you have finnaly figured out the true nature of the TA: Dollars before sense. The public be damned.
It seeme it wasn't so long ago that conductors would announce the next station once the train was moving along. Back in the good old days when the N was a true express, I remember hearing a very simple, straightforward announcement after leaving Union Square: "34th St., next."
I remember the annoucements as of late last year " This is a Manhattan Bound 4 train, 125th street next, Chagne there for the 6 train. Watch the closing doors"
My apologies Lyle. If you noticed on the posting I was at Erics house. No knowledge and Eric, give me a G2! My drive on that post is the Supervisor's perogative, not mine and I hope you understand the TA bottom line that that conductor, Harry Nugent, the one on the 1 line would not be allowed in this day to carry on with "improper announcements" , as Eric indicated.
I hate to bust your bubble, but.......the TA has militaristic procedeures! You are not allowed to "do your own thing." There is a "blue book" which tells you what to say and when. Violators, especially new probies, will be harassed to death by supervision, if you are lucky!
If the TA is so militaristic, then why do so many conductors get away with doing their own things? I would like to hear more about this "blue book."
- Lyle
The blue book is the announcement book one gets when he/she is hired as a conductor. It is your Bible of announcement procedeures. I know full well some conductors do their own thing. But the new people (under your name on the payroll the computer automatically prints "probationary" for one year), are ridden by the Train Service Supervisors (TSS) much more often than the non-probies. It is the job of the TSS to check the payroll roster and note which jobs are covered by probies (both train operator & conductor) and try to ride with them for at least a few stops daily especially if he/she is new to the line.
people never pay attention to pa announcements now do you think they'll listen to "ALL ABOARD"? please....most subway riders are always in a FOG or are just plain IGnorant
Hi---My friend, Amtrak Andy is coming to NY on Sun and I was hoping if someone can tell me the best way for him to get into the city from Newark Int'l? Is PATH a good way? If so----where is the PATH station and how much? Is there even a PATH station at Newark Int'l? Thanks!
they can take the airlink bus to penn station newark and then get the path. there also buses into nyc.
Olympia Trails has 2 buses from EWR, one to the Port Authority, the other to the World Trade Center. Both cost $10 per person and is a huge ripoff. NJT used to operate the PABT route (#300) for $7, but that went kaput a few years back.
NJT also operates the #107 through the airport (from South Orange and Irvington) to the PABT, but no passengers are carried between the airport and New York -- they want you to pay the $10 fare instead of what would probably be $3.95 for the 107 bus.
But you can still get from the airport to the city for 2 dollars by taking the #62 bus ($1 vs. $4 for the Airlink) to Penn Station, then the PATH for another dollar.
If time is an issue, take the Olympia bus, as the 62/PATH route will take twice as long.
Vartan---thanks man----but were would my friend be able to catch the #62 bus from Newark Int'l?
Faxman---thanks for your tip also.
The #62 bus stops at every terminal -- alights in front of the terminals and picks up at the bus lanes located at each terminal. When your friend gets off the plane, have him follow the signs to Ground Transportation/Buses. Each bus lane has a sign indicating the bus that stops there (look for NJ Transit #62, or something along those lines).
I've heard you can't get on the #62 with a suitcase, at least not a big one.
The #62 is a regular public bus, so there are no special luggage racks or accomidations. As long as you have nothing more than a backpack and/or carry-on bag, you should be okay.
Otherwise, take the Airlink, the buses reserved for that line have racks in the back for large suitcases.
Get to Newark Penn Station----take a PATH train there into city. PATH costs $1.00!!!!!
WOW!!! Great to meet all the SubTalkers who showed up for the PCC field trip yesterday! As someone said,waiting on the WTC platform was almost going on a weird kind of blind date-you didnt know what people looked liked,you were afraid nobody would show and when they did show it was like "Oh...okay..."
My connections home worked out almost to the second-although it was maddening to get a SLOW R44 on the E going up 8th ave. But it beat out a theory I have- If theres no A in Chambers when you pull in, you're much better off to keep on the E-you're only making 2 more stops!
as it was a C pulled in to Chambers the same time as us, so I KNEW that there werent gonna be no A for a long long time....as the Board of Transportation had planned it back in 1924.
Other highlights of yesterday were:
1. The run on a real fast Slant40 from W4th to BB...Maybe Waynes right..mmmm
2 Coming back from Coney,changing at Atlantic Ave and finding an EMPTY
R33 (9600 series) on the 4 waiting to card out (around 320 pm the clock at Nevins said 1523 when we left there..) An incredibly fast run up to 125th...(BTW..one of my fave little spots on the whole system is that spot right past Brooklyn Bridge where theres no signals,no lights of any kind for a good 5-800 feet GREAT!! Makes you wonder what it was like with the old equiment with no sealed beams...)
3 And of course the field trip itself....although that guy who rushed for the front seat in ther PAth at WTC prob wished he didnt!!
So folks..if couldnt make this one...ya gotta make the next one!(did I hear something about SIRT???)
This far-flung Son of Newark is hungry for details of the ride. Can anyone oblige?
Lou and others...great to meet you all! Wonderful way to spend a pleasant June night. Nice time!!
To oblige John Crowley - this trip was everything a rail fan could like. Starting with PATH, always a unique system, rich in history. The sprint from Journal Square to Newark is one of my favorites - the fast ride across the Meadows, next to the Amtrak NE Corridor and the NJ Transit Morristown line - then the always imposing Dock Bridge over the Passaic River to Newark Penn Station. Then the priceless PCCs on the #7 City Subway - still great looking after 53 years. We rode three separate cars - from Penn to Orange St. (good photo op); then to Franklin Ave. (another good photo op) - then back to Penn. Return trip to NY was highlighted with a good photo stop at Harrison, where you can see just about everything - PATH, NJT, Amtrak.
If we do this again, it's a good idea to spend some time looking around Newark Penn Station. It's a classic Art Deco structure that was recently fixed up and looks good. Maybe a good idea to combine with a trip to Hoboken Station, including a PATH ride between them.
Hope to see all of you on a future trip! Anyone know where the pictures will be posted?
Thanks to all who attended the trip. It was a pleasant way to spend a few hours after work on a Friday. The weather was perfect. Even though the sun was not optimum for picture taking at Orange St., Franklin Ave. or Harrison/PATH, I'm sure Dave and others took some good shots that will hopefully find their way onto this site. We'll have to do some more after-work field trips while the sun stays out so late this time of year.
I've put up the Field Trip web page with three photos sent to me by Alan Braunstein (the magic of digital cameras). I'll add more photos next week when I get my slides back.
The page is at: Newark City Subway Field Trip
Enjoy!
-Dave
I have three to send to you; I took your advice and scanned as BMP then touched up then converted BMP to JPG at the end.
See if this works out; if so I will use this method in the future.
Wayne
Those are great pictures. Too bad (for me!) that I had to miss the trip.
Dave, I hope you will identify all the participants, as you did for the Willy-B trip pictures.
Three new pix from Wayne W. and the annotated group photo has been uploaded. Again, I suck at names to faces so if you want to just drop me an email telling me your number I'll correct the caption. (I know I left a couple people out too, sorry about that)
Newark City Subway Field Trip
-Dave
I'm sorry I couldn't make this one. Can't help but notice that it was mostly an entirely different crew. I guess if there are enough field trips, everyone will eventually meet everyone else.
Here are the missing ID's for the group trip picture: #3 is Stu Greenberg (per previous post); #4 is Lou from Middletown, NY; #8 is Howard Fein; and #9 is Andy Sparberg.
I am glad all you guys had fun on the Newark Subway. I rode that line many years ago with my friend Frank from Yonkers about 5 years
ago. It won't be the same without our beloved PCC's.
I'll keep posted on upcoming events, looks like the /ERA/ is coming up soon in Philly. I'll try to make that one and maybe get my "mug"
in the group picture if one is taken!
Chuck Greene
For the record, I'm number 3 in the group photo.
I'd like to thank everyone for the wonderful time I had on this trip. I hope to attend others.
I'm going to dig out my old shots of the PCCs from the 70's. Most are on slides so I'll have to find a way to get them into the computer but a couple were printed so I should be able to scan them.
-Stu
Stu -
Once I get my new Mac set up and connected (Comcast is supposed to show up Friday afternoon to install the cable modem) I'll have an email address that I can use on the board AND a scanner with transparency adapter, so if you want we can then make arrangements to get your slides to my house and scan them in (after I do a few of my own to see how they're going to come out, of course).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe you got #4163, that train took me from West 4th to Kings Highway in 25 minutes FLAT. It didn't even seem too pokey going over the rickety Manhattan Bridge (maybe 22-25 or so). She got another good sprint between 7th Ave & Prospect Park until GT #A3-409 slowed her down a bit. Once she got the express track, she was off to the races.
For those curious as to which PCCs we rode:
PCC #10 from Newark Penn Station to Orange
PCC #15 from Orange to Franklin
PCC #11 from Franklin back to Newark Penn Station.
Other PCCs sighted out on the road were:
#5, #9, #14, #21, #26, with #2 and #4 sighted at the layup track.
They are in amazing shape considering they are 51 years young.
Once again, thanks to all fellow SubTalkers for an enjoyable trip!
Wayne
My special thanks to Sid from NJ who had the trip planned, and guided us through the obstacles (iron madens & which one took cash vs. a ticket or exact fare) but flexible enough if we wanted more photo-ops. As has been said elsewhere in this thread the 12 of us had a marvelous time on this lovely evening. I had a grin on my face the whole trip :-)
My trip started at 4 PM at Main St. where I got a #7 Redbird that took about 30 min. The view of the Manhattan skyline was great from Queens Blvd. in till we made the tunnel. I then caught a R62A #1 at Times Sq and noticed that a young woman was breast feeding her child in the company of a few friends or relatives. After the 15 min trip to WTC I still had plunty of time for a light supper at a kind of Italian fast food place before our trip. On the way back, after the Harrison stop a few of us switched at Grove Street for a trip thru the other tunnel then on to 33rd Street. Three of us parted at Penn to take seperate LIRR trains on our final leg of the journey.
BTW, The Subway-Buff & I are thinking to doing this same trip later this summer as it seems from the posts that there are a number of you who missed this one, but want to do the trip. It will be a weekday other than Friday.
Mr t__:^)
What a great trip that was Friday! It is amazing how great those PCCs
look. After I left the group I jumped on a Jersey Arrow at Newark-Penn and headed to New York. The engineer had the shade up so I was able to look out of the front all the way. We reached a top speed of 79 MPH before we had to slow down at the Secaucus project. Will that ever be finished? When I got to NY-Penn, I realized the
conductor never lifted my ticket, so I got a free ride!
I caught the 8:06 PM Babylon Local, change at Jamaica for Far Rockaway and was home by 9PM.
I think the next trip should be a ride on the SIRT. Anyone up for that?
It was great to meet a few of the folks that until now I have known only through this board, and to see a few other old acquaintances (sp?) again. As a PCC fan of long standing, the Newark ride is even better than Wayne's beloved slants, in my opinion (and yes, Wayne old friend, you're entitled to yours, however wrong I may think it is! :-))
Once I get the new Mac up and running and my slides come back, I'll scan and send them (if they're decent) to Dave for the page.
Anyone up for a vehicular tour to locate the unused tunnel entrances from the surface? I know where the entrance to the Cedar Street line is (behind Kresge's/McCrory's) but not the other ones.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ah, yesh, but I got to enjoy them BOTH in the same day. I wonder what a theoretical race between PCC #15 and #4163 (or #4314 or #4399) might be like :o)
A good time was had by all!
Wayne
Ah, yesh, but I got to enjoy them BOTH in the same day. I wonder what a theoretical race between PCC #15 and #4163 (or #4314 or #4399) might be like :o)
A good time was had by all!
Wayne
I've been off this line for a couple of days and maybe I should have stayed off because the news hasn't been enncouraging from what I have been reading. To Steve, Larry, RedbirdR33 and Paul, the fact that I'm living in California does not mitigate my unhappines of what I've heard from you guys. Are things really that bad with the Sea Beach line in Brooklyn, and why hasn't Giuliani, a native Brooklynite done his part to help out? I'm on a break giving an SAT Test to high school students and doing a slow burn at the same time. It's bad enough that my Mets lost last night to those damn Yankees, but now I have to get caught up with the continued destruction of my favorite slubway train. I don't mean to sound stupid, but isn't there anything or any group that can rectify this? I'm not looking forward to riding the Sea Beach when I come to New York this August if I'm going to be angry at what I see. This is a real bummer. Go Mets!
Well, I rode the "N" (Sea Beach) on my way back from Coney Island to World Trade yesterday and here's what I saw:
Yes, they have re-signalled one of the express tracks. The other one lies fallow.
Some of the stations are in precarious condition - especially 86th Street and Avenue "U". Water seepage is taking its awful toll.
I visited Bay Parkway, 20th Avenue and 18th Avenue. These stations are in so-so condition. There is evidence of recent repainting but there is also evidence of water damage too. The antique station-houses are also in OK shape, but the ones at Bay Parkway and 20th Avenue need some work. There is some replacement tile at 18th Avenue station house, consistent with the original pattern, but more brightly colored. It doesn't blend in too well with the original.
Overall, I'd give it a "C" on average, with some stations getting lower marks (noted above) and others (New Utrecht appears to have gotten a rehab) in better shape. It needs some work.
Wayne
I case I hadn't remembered to post it, here is my 1980-90 census of population data for neighborhoods affected by the Manhattan Bridge disruption (served by the B, D, Q, M, N, R) and the rest of Brooklyn.
Subway ridership to work: BMT southern - 11.3 percent Rest of Brooklyn +17.6 percent.
Employed residents BMT southern + 5.1 percent; Rest of Brooklyn +18.5 percent.
Remember, the loss of half the tracks for the past 18 years has led to longer trips and more crowded trains, but there is still service. Imagine what would happen if the bridge were lost completely for any length of time? BMT riders now take 5 to 10 minutes longer each way, each day than 30 years ago. What if that were 30 minutes longer, or worse, if you had to get out, walk, and get on the A/C or F because they have tunnels?
I totally agree with the fact that having the Manhattan Bridge out of service as it is, has a negative impact on subway service throughout the Brooklyn BMT, especially on the 4th Avenue and Broadway lines, i.e. the "N" and "R". Taking forever and a day to replace 50 yards of trackway is preposterous, yet this is just about all they have left to do on the southbound side. If they don't get their brains in gear and figure out what to do in the long run - whether it's a replacement bridge, replacement trackways adjacent to the bridge or a new tunnel, they HAVE to do SOMETHING.
AND - the stations between 18th Avenue and 86th Street on the "N" DO need some rehabilitative work. There are water leaks everywhere and there are vines and mosses growing along the sides of the cut and over the station sheds.
Wayne
Since the late 50's, when the TA began to severely cut non-rush hour services, I've been wondering when they would look for an excuse to close either the West End or Sea Beach services, agruing that there is a certain amount of redundancy since both lines serve approximately the same area.
If you believe that unthinkable, remember that the TA closed the Myrtle and 3rd Avenue (Bronx) els in the same general era, both without adequate replacement.
The "natural" choice to close would have been the West End.
Why? In TA-think, closing the West End could:
(a) eliminate an elevated line (converting New Utrecht to an upscale yuppy haven, of course)
(b) be replaced by nice, modern buses on New Utrecht Avenue (hey, they did it to the 3rd Avenue el).
Conversely, closing the Sea Beach would have been more difficult because it is a depressed right-of-way, and because routing a replacement bus would be impractical, to say the least. The TA has the guts to degrade service impossibly, but not to eliminate it altogether, at least not right away.
IMHO, the only reason this idea did not get out of the starting gate (I did hear whispers, back then) was because the West End has more patronage and is a generally more popular service.
As to the possible loss of the Manhattan Bridge, mentioned by Larry, this seems to me to be a realistic fear. I think the TA's top prioirty should be a connection to Clark Street and a tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge.
Yes, more so than 2nd Avenue.
(Closing the West End/Sea Beach).
Frankly, the lines do duplicate each other, and service would be better and cheaper if one line were closed. But the problem is the one the previous post identifies. The Sea Beach is the better line. It has its own ROW, is not an elevated, etc. But the West End is in the right place. Closing the West End would strand lots of people beyond a 10-15 minute walk from the subway. So it is not practical to close either in favor of the other.
Among the alternatives considered here in the past were a) closing duplicate stations, but not lines, for a faster ride and lower station maintenance costs, and b) issuing bonds paid back by the savings from having one line instead of two, and building a brand new subway perfectly placed between the 4th Avenue and Culver lines. Then the West End line would be torn down, and the Sea Beach line would be converted to a crosstown busway/trolley. The odds of THIS city pulling something like that off are low.
In any case, the Manhattan Bridge problem remains. You'd still have to get all those people, and all those trains to Manhattan, regardless of which line they run on.
If one of the West End or the Sea Beach line is shut down due to duplication, it seems there are many other candidates in the system for such treatment. It seems the #4 line above 161st St - Yankee Stadium is easily duplicated by the C/D. And the #2/5 in the Bronx is not that far from the #6. In Queens, why not shut down and demolish the #7 because the IND duplicates a decent portion of it. In Brooklyn, the Brighton and Culver lines have at least as much duplication as the West End and Sea Beach. Bottom line: Is there really that much duplication between the West End and Sea Beach?
P.S. Imagine how many bus routes the TA could get rid of if the argument that the West End and Sea Beach are duplicate services prevails!
In the case of the #7, all Queens routes going out east are overcrowded as it is. By closing down the #4, you lose a maintance facility and a BMT/IND physical connection with the IRT .
And by closing the 7, you would lose direct subway access to Shea Stadium.
The truth is, some of those duplicates are duplicates -- while other areas are not served. It's a function of the history as competing systems. To your specifics:
Wouldn't it be better if the Jerome Avenue Line was a subway under University Ave, further from the C/D? Wouldn't it be better if the 2/5 ran up Third Ave, further from the 6? Wouldn't it be better if the BMT Broadway Line went up 2nd Ave?
A little late to do much about it though.
1) There have been various ideas over the years to build a new subway beyond Church Avenue on the Culver line and take advantage of the under-utilized four-track capacity between Church Avenue and Jay Street. However, the MTA seems to be a very cautious organization right now, and it seems to be in a balance - perhaps it could be called inertia - of not wanting to either expand or contract the system much. (NJ Transit, in contrast, is in an expansion mode now, but it is a different kind of agency with very different kinds of services.) The MTA doesn't want to restructure the system even if that is needed. It picked the simplest option for the 63rd Street connection, and it did that only because of earlier commitments, going back to the 1970s, to finish the 63rd Street tunnel. Therefore, I wouldn't look for any major changes to the Sea Beach, West End, or Culver lines in the near-future.
2) The Manhattan Bridge may be an exception, like 63rd Street, that forces the MTA to act. Is there a time frame for finishing work on the north side of the bridge once it starts? I have heard that these repairs are supposed to give another thirty years of service, although I can't judge whether that is just wishful thinking.
Supposing they were to build a new tunnel for BMT trains that would replace the Manhattan Bridge tracks.
Where should the tunnel be built? Should it follow, in general, the course of the current Manhattan Bridge (ie. run it under Flatbush Avenue, and connect it with the now unused express Canal Street station?
If they do that, why not restore the old Myrtle Avenue stop, in order to bring workers directly to MetroTech...
Why not build it farther south so it can serve the City Hall area as well?
The southbound platform at the old Myrtle Ave. station no longer exists. It was torn out to make room for an additional track when the DeKalb interlocking plant and station were rebuilt. Besides, when the DeKalb platforms were extended northward, the station was essentially moved closer to Myrtle Ave., deeming that station as being redundant.
It would be well to remember that when the New York and Sea Beach Railroad opened in 1879 there really was no direct rail connection from Manhattan to Coney Island. One could take a steamboat from various Manhattan locations to the pier at 61 St and 1 Avenue and there board the NY & SB for the trip to Coney Island.
When the Sea Beach Line was rebuilt under the Dual Contracts this point to point philosophy was continued. Although the Sea Beach had two tracks for express service they were only intended for high speed service to/from Coney. There was no provision for intermediate express stops and the open cut would have made the construction of these difficult. This was in sharp contrast to the Brighton,West End and Culver Line which were all rebuilt with provision for intermediate express service.
Looking at old films it seems that during the season Coney Island drew crowds that would have done Disney proud but the rest of the time the express tracks sat unused.
As much as I hate to say it the express tracks were redundant and underused especially as a four track Sea Beach main had only a two track connection into the Fourth Av Subway.
The NX would have had more of a chance if it had run local between Coney and Kings Highway and then express although the use of an "Absolute Block" between Kings Highway and 8 Avenue would still have limited service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for all the responses concerning the precariouss position of the Sea Beach line. It doesn't make me feel any better but at least it gets me up to date. You might wonder why I have this fixation on that particular train. It is because I always insisted that we ride to Grandpa and grandma's houses (both of them) on the Sea Beach, although we could have taken the West End. That line I thought was dull because it never went under any underpasses, which I called little tunnels. Nor did it have a number back in the late 1940's and early 1950's, while the Sea Beach carried #4, which was my favorite number when I was a kid. As you can tell there is still a lot of kid in me and I only say this because getting to know you guys online convinces me there are a lot of grown up kids out there.
Here, here. Subways have brought the kid out in me ever since my first experience in 1965. The number marking for the West End was 3; if you never saw it, it meant the Triplexes never ran there back in those days. (They did end their careers on the West End in 1964-65.)
It sounds as if you felt the same way I did when it came to train markings; I always liked to see a marking of some sort on the front end of a train. That's why I didn't particularly care for the BMT standards when they were still running on the Canarsie. The Broadway line was another story. Every train was marked on that line. I still remember peering down the express track at Union Square while waiting for an N train to arrive; since the express tracks are fairly straight to the south of that station, you could see the train from quite a distance away. Then you'd see the headlights, then the signs would come into view, and pretty soon a train of R-32s would glide into the station.
When I used to come into the city on Saturdays, I always insisted on taking an A train from 42nd St. to 14th St., and not an E. E trains stopped at 23rd St. even though the R-1/9s were marked, "E/8th Ave. Express". I felt betrayed. Besides, I became hooked on expresses pretty quickly, and I liked the paint scheme on the R-10s.
I was on these 2 cars the other day and these cars make a loud clacking noise that shakes the car before it actually moves. Wonder why these 2 cars are like this? BTW: This happened on the #7 train.
MCIMAN2000
hey, I was just wonderering if anyone knows any sites about the Baltimore and Annapoils Railroad
Doug
Not for the Baltimore & Annapolis per se. Pix may be available on many of the rail photo web sites.
I haven't run into a B&A website, but for a book try _Every Hour on the Hour: A Chronicle of the Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis Electric Railway_, written by John E. Merriken and published as Central Electric Railfans' Association Bulletin 130 in 1993. The emphasis is on the Washington-Baltimore service, but the B&A is also covered.
Your local public library should be able to round up a copy on interlibrary loan (or may even have it, if you're in the DC-Maryland area).
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Not totally correct. Col. Merriken's opus maximus was published by Leroy O. King and printed by Taylor Publishing of Dallas. If CERA also published it, it was by arrangement with both gentlemen, who owned the copyright.
Today marks another railfan trip for me. I traveled on the N/R lines through Manhattan. I went to 95 Street. I went through Manhattan to Roosevelt Av. I even took a R42 with one car of R40M in the mix.... Those R46 fooled me today in the 60St tunnel. I have nothing but respect for these cars now. I observed the 63St connection as we passed by 36 and heading into QP. I also observed the narrow passageway mentioned on Sub Talk a few weeks back.It looks like the 63 connection will be right on time. Questions:
1. As we entered 59St and you see light briefly on the R, I noticed 2 trackways running parallel, could anybody informed about this?
2. Same thing at 57-Carnegie Hall? Just before you enter the staiion, these tracks merge from the right?(Not the express tracks)
3. When was Canal St redone? I hope they do the same downstairs?
4. What are they going to do with 86St station? Are they going to leave the walls as it is now or will tiles be erected?
5. Still cannot find the Roosevelt Ave second Station?
I might be going to Coney Island tonight. I know Im taking the D going, but dont know about coming back. Railfan trip #4 possibly tomrrow?
Some feedback for you:
(2) The two stub trackways you see leading off into the gloom were supposed to go to the upper west side, running under Central Park parallel to CPW (east of it) and on up to Morningside Hgts. but it never got anywhere.
(3) They have a new mural behind plywood at the base of the ramp leading from the "N"/"R" to the closed Canal-Broadway station.
They have a serious water leak down there, complete with stalactites AND stalagmites. If you look at the closed platform, survey marks are on the wall indicating the placement for the new tile. From the look of these marks, the tile will be the same as or similar to the tile at the "N"/"R" station, complete with ideographs, good luck symbols etc.
4. 86th-4th Avenue lost its tile a long time ago, perhaps as long as 30 years ago or more. I know it wasn't there in 1968, which was the last time I was there. The paint on the wall is hideous. My guess as to what the old tile looked like is the same pattern as 95th Street or 59th Street (with the tablets over the frieze and the little globes with diagonal bands around them) The color, based on my observations of a small remaining patch on the side of a stairway/wall is very light green in the center with ultramarine blue and medium/dark-to-medium green accents/stripes/bands. They have a nice wall to hang tile panels on, why don't they do it? Who knows!
5. See the line-by-line "Queens IND" for a detailed location of Roosevelt Avenue 2nd station.
Glad you enjoyed your trip!
Wayne
Mike:
The trackways south of 59 St/4 Av were for the proposed Staten Island Connection.
The trackways north of 57 St were planned for the original extension of the Broadway Line north via 8 Avenue, this was at a higher level than the two track east into the 60 Street Line. The express of the original 8 Avenue Connection are now utilized by the 63 Street tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
About the Roosevelt Avenue second station - You can SEE it from the end of one of the platforms, but in order to GO there, you have to walk through a gate which is usually locked, but I suspect you may find it unlocked at times. Not that I'm recommending going there alone, because you never know who or what you may find there!
From the end of one of the platforms? I thought it was at the east end if the mezzanine where there is a (sometimes locked) gate).
It is. There's a fair amount of information about it elsewhere on this site. It has been used for storage in recent years; at one time part of it served as a transit police station. The Transit Museum has run some tours there, including a walk through the steel dust down the trackway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/subway/index.html what type of car is that pictured in the background? is that the R-142??
That's an R110-A (#8005). Check the rosters.
-Dave
Nope, it's the Love Boat.
-Hank :p
The MTA wesite has mistakenly reused the D line schedules in place of the F line schedules on their wesite --or at least the last time I checked, the F does not run to 205th via dekalb ave...
I searched around on their site for a feedback email link, but could not find one, could someone direct me the correct way??
thanks,
Dave
try webmaster@mta.nyc.ny.us
or webmaster@nyct.com
One of those might work
I have noticed that there is still water leaking on to the Tracks at
116 Street and Lenox Ave. This is Just South of the 116 Street station
on the Southbound Track. If you look out the storm door you will see it. Heres my Question wasn't this suppose to be fixed when they did the Lenox REHAB.
Typical MTA. Money poured in, water spills out.
Water is very strong-it goes where it wants.
Deep wells would have been the only solution.
I've seen it too, it appears that they have it contained in a channel between the tracks and perhaps they have a drain for it somewhere before 110th Street. I only saw it on the southbound tracks.
Wayne
The problem fixed at 116st was an underground stream that was running under the tracks, undermining the track bed and tunnel supports. The current leak is like all the other leaks in the system; water mains, sewer lines, puddles, and rain all migrating through the tunnel roof and walls.
-Hank
NOTHING!
Not one of you showed up today.
That's OK. Harold and I got alot done on our own. The entire side of the car from door panel #2 to #3 was sanded and primed. Also doors 3 and 4.
The batteries reccieved their periodic maintainence, distilled water. Mike Hanna was around, working on our Lo-V car.
But since none of you were there, you all missed out on this.
Forget it ok. No one's interested, and that's the bottom line because the arm chair railfan says so. The feeling is mutual. I hate to say it, but I'm feeling negative about the 6688 project. I am up to my head in this project. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind doing it. HOWEVER, this project is going to take months to do. There's so much to do, but there's never enough people to go around.
I was informed by Jeff H. that the chances of 6688 being retrofitted with a door from another fleet is highly unlikely unless boss Lou absolutely wants it. It seems that the door's problems (or should I say appearance since that seemed to be the only problem) can be rectified. I have no idea if the floor is going to be redone either, but that's another issue.
Anyway, do the best that you can, Harry and Erik.
I hope for nothing, but success for 6398. Keep it up with the paintbrushes.
-Constantine
Check into the signal dolly car I mentioned at 207. Those doors are original and you have the glass to go with it.
Lou will be checking into it. We need door rubbers for our car.
Thank You,
Constantine Steffan
Un original, yes. But we installed the new type found on R-32's today. I found it easier than hunting for old and dried out OEM stuff.
Besides, it keeps out the weather a lot better.
WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!!!!
Thanks,
Constantine
Make sure you use the boot guard inserts, such as those on redbird cars to adapt the new rubbers.
Thank You.
-Constantine
Many of the people who post at this site are just too far away geographically to support you with their physical presence. That doesn't mean that we're not interested in the postings of your progress reports. My distance and health problems prohibit me from joining you, but I can still envy you that you can get there, and admire your restoration efforts with the R-16 and the R-17. I look forward to posts about either car as my only way of knowing how you are doing.
Keep up the good work and don't get discouraged!
Karl B
Thank you for the kind words. With that, my faith has been restored. I will provide updates and probably pictures along the way. Go to SubTalk Field Trips and see pictures of the Shore Line Trolley Museum. You can see 6688.
Cheers,
Constantine
Stef: Please clarify something for me. 6398 is an R-16 at the Trolley Museum of New York and 6688 is an R-17 at the Shoreline Trolley Museum (BERY). Am I correct? Which car are you working on as this thread lists both numbers. Thank you.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Sorry, Larry! I was actually talking about 6688. 6398 is Harry and Erik's car. We like to communicate back and forth about our respective cars. I'll be sure to clarify in the future the car that I am referring to.
-Constantine Steffan
Stef: Thanks for unconfusing me. Gookd luck with your restoration.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Stef: Thanks for unconfusing me. Good luck with your restoration.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Stef, I echo Karl Bs' words about not getting discourged. I had my last soccer game to coach Sat. Here I am a grandpa doing it. My Asst. couldn't make it so there I was by myself. No fathers even showed up & my daughter didn't like the fact that I dragged her on the field (we had to split the team in two). The only point to this off topic comment is that you do a thing because YOU get pleasure out of it. I did, you do. If you'r patient & don't get discourged things will turn out for the best. You might even see me up there in a week or two.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
I thank you for the kind words. Erik from TMNY sounds frustrated and I can symapathize with him. These projects take months to do! However, I will stick to this project 100%. Someone has got to do it, because I don't want this car to run around with just half a paint job.
One entire side is done. The roof work is in progress; now the car's going to be looped so the other side can be tended to and makes our lives a lot easier in doing the work. Painting will be easy; it's the paint removal that takes forever. At the very end, the interior will be done over.
I can hardly wait for the work to be finished! She'll look great!
At the end of all of this. I'll be getting handle time on the R-17. She'll run like a bat out of hell. This is one fast car....
Come up for NY Event at the end of the month, ok?
-Constantine
There is a point to be made here! The whole world consists of things you would like to do! You choose the one or two which you get the most enjoyment or sense of accomplishment from, and look on at others from the sideline. Saturday, I traveled to New York for the Belmont Stakes (another almost triple crown). My route involved Metro North, the Subway and the LIRR. I passed within 1/2 mile of Shore Line coming and going, but I just didn't have the time to stop in. Likewise my subway time was limited to one route. I left home at 7AM and returned at 1AM. The bottom line is you pick your entertainment for a given day and you often don't have the ability to diverge, even if you want to. Other needs prevented me from getting to Seashore on Sunday.
None of that means I am less interested in either Seashore or Shore Line. Reality said that I couldn't!
You do what you can, Gerry. I don't necessarily make it up to Shore Line every week as I get tied up in my own private affairs. I'm not saying people aren't interested in the hobby. However, the need for volunteers is a great one; the struggle to preserve history is quite large in nature. I just wish that sometimes folks would make it out to the various museums, because certainly, I'm not always going to be around. When I'm not around, someone else can pick up the slack. Then again, this is just a volunteer operation; no more, no less. You the hobbyist can decide what it is that interests you the most.
-Constantine
I wanted to come. Unfortunately, my current situation prevented me. Next month I'll be spending some time a bit closer to Kingston, and I probably could stop by.
In the NY Times Metro Section Sunday June 6, page 41, is a article about the Port Authority in its all out campaign to win apprival for a rail line linking Kennedy International Airport to local subways and trains.
After the good folks of SubTalk read this article, your most excellent thoughts are as always most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I haven't read the article yet, but the approval last week is the first major step for rail access to JFK Airport. Access to the airport has been a necessity for New York City for many years and it has finally come within reach. Sure, the project has it's downfalls (i.e. not a one-seat ride from Manhattan) but it is the beginning of what is yet to come. The project is being designed for standard gage track and 3rd Rail Power so it will be possible to have a one-seat ride from Penn Station or Grand Central(if East Side Access is implemented). Many people ask why can't the Port Authority use the old LIRR Rockaway Line for access to the airport. There are three reasons for that:
1 - The Passenger Facility Charge (PFC)Funds that are paying for the project (not taxpayer dollars) allow only for funding for this project to be built on a dedicated right-of-way. The PFC funds come from the charge collected at airports once travellers fly. Therefore if this project was to be built on the Rockaway line it would be coming out of the taxpayer's pocket. I read how many people gripe that the project is being funded by us taxpayers, and should be better spent on projects such Subway Projects as Second Avenue and/or LaGuardia Airport Access. Well, those projects are or will be funded by taxpayer dollars.
2 - The NIMBY's in the northern end of the Rockaway Line would almost certainly stop this project dead in its tracks because of their opposition of a rail line in their backyard.
3 - There is no more capacity in Penn Station for any additional trains to JFK Airport. Until East Side Access happens, running trains directly into Manhattan cannot happen.
Ridership on the AIRTRAIN will probably be very low until some sort of connection for access to Manhattan is made. A special type of car will also have to be developed to handle the tight curves within the airport that come in from Manhattan riding the LIRR rails. But if this project doesn't happen, think of what we will have. Nothing. Then us New Yorkers will be left scratching our heads still waiting for the Train-to-the-Bus-to-the-plane.
Latest I've heard: the city/state could pay for a connection between the Jamaica Branch of the airtrain and the LIRR near its terminal at Jamaica station, pointed toward Manhattan. Some trains up the Van Wyck would run to Jamaica station, others direct to Penn. As mentioned, there is no capacity at rush hour until Eastside Access (in the year 2525?). But it could run off-peak.
I don't see how anything less than an incredibly expensive direct one-seat ride from Manhattan to JFK (and LGA) has even a chance of being successful. And aren't the airlines going to challenge the use of the air passenger surcharge for construction of the Airtrain. Even after the link is completed Newark airport will still be closer and more accessible to Manhattan than JFK. What's the progress of the planned NJT to EWR connection, is it heavy rail or an extension of the monorail?
New Jersey Transit is constructing a new station on the Northeast Corridor line between Newark-Penn Station and Elizabeth. The present Newark Airport Monorail will be extended to this station, so that you will transfer from a NJ Transit (or Amtrak?) train to the monorail to get to the airport. In my opinion, this could have been an even better setup if PATH were to be extended from Newark-Penn Station to this new station. I suspect many more airport employees would use PATH to get there even though they might not want to spring for NJ Transit rail fares. In any event, this is really not a one-seat ride to the airport, because a transfer to the monorail is necessary. In some ways, the Airtrain to JFK is better because it's terminal in Jamaica will be more accessible (LIRR + E + J/Z + many bus lines) than this new Newark Airport Station.
I would have worked better if they just extended the PATH south to the airport from Penn Station. As it is, I hope NYC will get something better at LaGuardia, if not Newark.
I think there was a plan to do this at one time. I don't know what happened to it, though.
I don't fully agree with the idea of using PATH to provide a "one seat ride." Getting to Newark from any destination other than WTC is not currently a one seat ride - and in additon to the transfer it's pretty slow on top of that. If you're in Midtown, or anywhere in NY other than walking distance from WTC, using NJT would be a much faster option. True, you have to transfer to a Monorail, but you'd probably have to use that if you drove to the airport anyway - especially from rental areas or long term parking. I don't think it will be percieved as another public transit mode but rather the thing that everyone uses to get around the airport.
If you're using PATH to begin with (live in Jersey City or Hoboken and have no car), you've already overcome most sorts of anti-public transit perception so hopefully the idea of making another cross platform transfer at Newark shouldn't be a complete turnoff. Also, this will be a great opportunity for better airport access to anyone who lives along the Northeast Corridor or Long Branch lines.
The use of NJT is also significantly cheaper since there is minimal additional track required. In the current environment where anything is better than nothing - at least this is something. My biggest concern is frequency outside of rush hour. At peak it's every 15-20 minutes which is probably ok. But every 30 minutes mid-day should be beefed up a bit. There should be enough capacity to do this since it works at rush hour.
As long as they don't do something weird with the fare, it should be between $2.50 and $4.15 from NY Penn. This is still cheaper than using PATH or NJT + the Airport Express bus.
<<<2 - The NIMBY's in the northern end of the Rockaway Line would almost certainly stop this project dead in its tracks because of their opposition
of a rail line in their backyard. >>>
The Van Wyck link has been under severe fire from South Jamaica residents whose neighborhood would also be impacted by the construction.
Are some NIMBYs more powerful than others, he asked somewhat naively?
There was also a couple of brief articles in Thur. June 3rd Newsday.
Mr t__:^)
In the NY Post Sunday June 6, page 18, is a article about subway conductors putting passengers at risk of electrocution by opening the wrong-side train doors at an ''unacceptable'' rate, the NY Post has learned.
And the TA is even advertising for proposed designs for a new high-tech door system that would automatically prevent the potentially deadly mistake of opening doors that are not facing station platforms.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the article, your most excellent comments are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The easier solution is that any conductor who can't tell the difference between a wall/trackway/30' drop and a platform should be fired immediately, then arrested and charged with reckless endangerment. That should cut down the rate of incidents. Technology is not necessary to solve all people problems...
What ever happened to the LOW TECH solution of pointing to the conductor board??
I'll tell ya, many many just wave their finger and aren't even looking. I know many TA people complain when TRICKS are played with the removal of the board to see what a conductor will do. Looks like if the POST article is right (Statistics) the TA should play more games.
Just watch some condutors (I am not saying all or put a figure on it) as they POINT to the board. I've seen more and more not take it seriously, just a wave of the hand.
There is one problem when you take down Conductors boards to test the Conductors perfitancy. It causes delays in service becaause the Conductor has to Pull the Emergency Brake and walk the Platform and make sure all cars are in the station. This happened at Witlock one Saturday Morning. My conductor pulled the cord like he was suppose to then walked the Plaform. I Also put my handles in Emergency. Then we tryed to call control no luck after 5 Minutes my partner went down to tell the Station Agent what happen since there was no working payphone. Then after about 15 Minutes my contuctor Opens the doors with permittion. Also I heard on the radio that a SUPT. was suppose to be in the area. So finally I pull into Hunt Point and the Tower gave me a skip to 3 Ave. Then at 125 Express to Brooklyn Bridge. I didn't mind the Express ride but the passengers were fuming. There has to be a better way make sure conductors are doing the right thing. Maybe just have TSS'S spot check the trains. Ofcause I am not supporting conductor that do open up on the wrong side. They should be fired. There are a lot of people waiting in line for a chance to be Conductor. There was one case at Dyckman in Jan. a Conductor on a Uptown No.1 Opened on the wrong side. This was a Genaral Order and it was a Single track Operation. She was on the southbound Track. This involed a Transvse Cab. A TSS and train Operator on a Adjacent work train witness the whole thing. Also the Train Operator was taken out of service because it was eleged that the conductor told the Train Operator the she opened the wrong side and was going to open the right side. The only follow up I know is the Conductor's job was saved and now works on the Platform. Know if you want to talk about another dum thing that happen was a South Ferry a Conductor opened up the whole train instead of just the First 5 cars. Now I was told by a conductor that theres a sign the tells conductors Only open up the first 5 cars. The bottom line is it all caused by careless people not paying attention to there job and All the good employees have to suffer for the bad. All the Conductors I worked with were good people. I get conductor from the Extra list on Wednesday's and Saturday's. Some are new and nerves and I try to help carm them down.
When supervision does the entrapment thing with the boards, one of them should be hiding in a place where the board belongs since the superind't wants the efficiency checked, yet have no delay to service. Sort of like management having their cake and eating it too! Sounds like some vandal took down the board to create havoc, and Control wasn't sure if the efficiency test was in effect or not at the time as the sup't hadn't called them yet.
As a possible future conductor, I sure hope I get nice train operators like you seem to be! Thanks also for the answer fo what to do if the board is missing- if it is on the test then I know the answer now!
ps- when your C/R pulled the brake, did either or both go downtown or get time in the street?
No we did not have to go downtown. But if my Conductor opened up he would have gone downtown. Since there was no board you must pull the cord. For all you know I could have overshot the station so you must make sure all cars are in and Get permition from Control. In this case since Control was not answering the Radio you have to get to a Phone. If there no payphone that works then you have to go to the Station Agent. Hopefully that won't happen again I hate Witlock Ave.
[In this case since Control was not answering the Radio]
That itself should be considered a major safety issue.
That's part of the efficiency test of taking down the board or changing an automatic signal from green/yellow to red.They want to see what you do when they don't answer you on the radio.However,they don't refuse to answer the radio on all occassions of the efficiency test.
What has an unnecessary lengthy delay got to do with efficiency!? If a motorman in Boston overshoots, he gives the conductor 4 buzzes or bells - don't open!
What this has to do with is to see if you are following rules and regulations.
Following the rules and regulations is one thing, but delaying the customer to make a conductor jump through hoops is unfair to both the conductor and the passengers. I understand that the boards are there for a reason. Observing that a conductor follows the proper rule is fine, deliberatelty creating a situation which delays service, and then ignoring radio calls is pushing beyond the point of reasonable testing.
I agree with what you're saying,but if I'm behind a red automatic signal,I have to notify the Control Center immediately on the radio.They will ask me what the condition of the following signal is.If the following signal is clear,they will give me permission to "key-by" the signal I'm behind.If I take it upon myself to "key-by" that signal without permission from the Control center,a signal employee,or a Rapid Transit Operations employee qualified to do so,I risk losing my job.The passengers should call and complain when they are delayed by something like this.Remember,these efficiency tests exist because of the stupid actions of a few.
That happened to one a my friends. He was a M/M for 13 Years and was behind a Red signal and the Next Signal was green. It was about 8:00 on a weekday. The location was North of 79 Street and he was going south. He tryed calling control No Answer. After 5 Minutes he decides to key bye with No Permition. The was a TSS Waiting at the 10 Car mark at 79 Street and toke him Out Of Service. He was busted down to Conductor.
I always think of this everytime I run into something like this.
HE should have tried having the conductor radio control center, flagged another train and ask them to call control. If all fails secure the train and get to a phone mess up the entire railroad but never key a signal no matter what time of day it is
I can verify that the Transit Authority has performed and is performing efficiency testing on train crews with the effect of delaying train service to a point. As a matter of fact I was delayed well over ten minutes in a situation on the F line due to a red signal test which resulted in my securing of the train with "sufficient" handbrakes then fishing around for the notorious blue light phone which doesn't always work. One reason why the TA doesn't seem to do these tests during rush hours anymore. :0) If the OSR TSS doesn't wish to answer their radios, they will have to answer eventually.
We have to start to watch those Train Operators taking that Train Service Stupidvisor test on Saturday.They are already on the other side as far as I'm concerned.Be careful what you say or do around them.BTW, do any T.A employees know if that $60 tax from the union passed?
It failed. You can invest $60 wisely. Over 10,000 against the fee and 3 or so thousand for.
Queens bus is the only area that was YES- all others areas gave a resounding vote of NO CONFIDENCE to the James Gang and their plan!
RTO voted thus:
Motormen = 97% nea 3% yea
Conductors/Tower Operators = 97% nea 3% yea
Down in flames it went in all the other divisions at TA.
I posted the complete results at Continental Av. crew room.
You can be sure if I receive no response from Control Center in the event of this key by test that i will mess up the entire railroad by securing the train and the whole bit. These new radios bite the big one from the get go! plenty of dead spots so what makes them so great?
... or did you happen to hit one of those "dead spots" where Control didn't even hear your attempt to call in?
--Mark
Easy, low-tech solution:
Put the controls back on the outside of the car. Conductor would be REALLY concerned with how far he has to fall, and would always be looking down at his feet, and in that position, he should see the platform pretty easy.
-Hank
There is no problems with the efficiency test as you descibed as it sounded like the board was vandalized. If you read the bulletin on conductor's board efficency tests you would have known that there is supposed to be an OSR or RTO supervisor standing on the platform adjacent to the area of the conductor. By the way in the future call 1-800-722-2116 so the TA pays NYNEX for the collect call. Only after you waste about 15 minutes looking for the blue light phone that doesn't work. One bigger problem than opening doors on the wrong side is opening off the board. Some T/Os have stopped short or long of the boards and it really doesn't matter if the conductor opens or not as the OSR guys are removing the stop car markers to see if you are calling the control desk and checking with the conductor so read all your bulletins.
...at South Ferry a Conductor opened up the whole train instead of just the First 5 cars.
I never paid attention as to whether there is a conductor's board at South Ferry. Is there one at the end of the station (or just into the tunnel)?
--Mark
I now the conductor Position is by the set of camras at the back end of the station. The cab is the first one where the chans and camras are.
Unless they took it out(or it quit working), doesnt South Ferry (And 14th on the Lex) still have the proximity sensor that indicate the specific number of cars that can be opened?
Both are there and both still work. At SF there is no actual B&W striped board; instead there is a display which lights up with the number 5 after the gap fillers have come out and locked in place. That 5 tells you to both open only the first 5 cars and is also your indication board and must be pointed at before you open the doors. The same holds true for 14th St South-bound on the Lex, except there the number is 10.
Correct answer
Agreed, the last thing NYCT needs is another automated gadget to slow down service.
one motto stamped on TA memos "every second counts" should be outlawed. there are plenty of Conductors out there who do an outstanding job and the few SHITHEADS that make it bad for everyone.
If a fatality to a passenger happens due to a conductors actions(opening on wrong side or outside station limits) they can be criminally charged. All that has to be done is PAY ATTENTION to their duties. Removing indication boards in an alleged efficiency test as clearly an unsafe practice....
There is nothing unsafe in committing an efficiency test in the TA. In the railroads, the F.R.A. mandates efficiency tests for train crews and in the NORAC book of rules, there are signals provided for this purpose, such as track barricades for restricted speed tests to see if trains are under control around curves and in yards with limited sight distance. All engineers are radar gunned once a year ...mandatory! Even as a union man there is little that can be done here as the management has a right to ensure safe service when we sometimes fail to.
S-S-S
Safety-Service-Schedule in that order
[In the NY Post Sunday June 6, page 18, is a article about subway conductors putting passengers at risk of electrocution by opening the wrong-side train doors at an ''unacceptable'' rate, the NY Post has learned.
And the TA is even advertising for proposed designs for a new high-tech door system that would automatically prevent the potentially deadly mistake of opening doors that are not facing station platforms.]
How in the H _ _ _ does a conductor, whose major responsibility it is to operate the doors, open doors on the wrong side of the car? He/she would have to be looking at dark tunnel and support columns!
This is just plain stupidity, incompetence, or bad attitude at work. The conductors who do this should be looking at time off, a permanent write-up in their records, and be placed on probation for one-year.
This, along with a motorman taking a wrong line-up, is just not excusable. It is simply put not paying attention. Have the qualifications for train service in the subway been lowered to the point it isn’t safe to ride the trains?
And because of this the TA will have to spend millions of dollar to prevent such occurances instead of getting the money where it is needed.
I’d like to hear from those in train operation defend such incidents.
Jim K.
Chicago
Here in England ALL Underground lines are fitted with an electronic
C.S.D.E system (correct side door enable) which makes it impossible for a train operator to release the non-platform doors in error.
The only trains not fitted being the 30 or so 1959/62 stock still conductor operated on the Northern Line.
The installation of this CSDE system ,at great expense, needs a train operator to deliberatley cut out this safety feature by leaving his/her cab and operating a switch on the platform to open doors on non platform side. Perhaps London is different from NYC as the conductor (guard) has a door to open themselves rather than just looking through an open cab window.
My understanding of NYC operations was that the conductor MUST point to the chequered board which indicates train is berthed correctly before opening doors..?? Is this still the case??
Regards
Rob
London UK
:^)
Not quite correct Rob,
An Operator can simply push the in-cab 'mushroom' button, then open the doors on any side he pleases within 30 seconds of pushing 'mushroom'.
Mushroom Button???? Explain.
There is no way to defend a person who commits an accident as such as mentioned above. The conductors who permorm these incidents are getting fired almost immediately if on probation and demoted or fired otherwise. Wrong lineups have to be looked on with a case by case basis and there are some charges dropped. I think the biggest problem is caused by the Transit Authority themselves. The TA has reduced training from 1 year to the 1980s to a 50 day period in the IRT to present. The new personnel get one day per line instead of a max of the two weeks it would have required me to work the Northeast corrider to take the qualifying exam. Because our Labor Relations is in a hurry to get rid of those earning top pay eligile to retire and those using sick leave, they can't be picky about hiring those who constitute a liability to the railroad. An old timer once told me how lucky he was to get the job as the TA in the 70s refused to hire those wearing eyewear and other medical problems. I was told hiring 200 motormen a YEAR was not unusual. When I was hired as a T/O we had 75 to 100 per class every two months to replace the masses of retiring workers who were going faster than we could replace them. The TAs hiring standards don't even come close to those of the railroads where you must post a resume, take an aptitude test, stringent medicals and frequent on the job exams to see if you really want the job. Don't be quick to blame the conductor before you "point your finger" at the bean counters who put them there in the first place.
I can't conceive as to how on earth a conductor can actually open doors on the wrong side of the train! That IMHO would constitute an act of gross negligence, with the offender subject to demotion/retraining at the very least. I have applied for the C/R test myself. I know going in what side the doors open on at ALL the stations. I rehearse this periodically. Perhaps someone who makes such a grievous error should be compelled to be re-trained as to what side(s) doors open on.
One policy I'd like to see NYCT adopt is having the C/R optionally announce on which side the doors open on, as they do in Washington DC, as part of the station announcement.
i.e. "Grand Central, doors open on the left side, change here for the 4,5,6 and Times Square Shuttle..." - would have the benefit of making the C/R aware of the correct opening side, as well as being an aid to the visually impaired.
Wayne
Announcing which side the doors open would mean more time dwelling in the station if you take the "Saying Thank You" point of few the TA just took.
I too would like an annoucment as to which side the doors open. Just make it on the station if the side switches IMHO.
Announcing which side the doors would open on would not work. Many of our passengers act like space cadets. They don't know which way the train is going. Take a 75 foot car. You may be riding forward, you may be riding backwards. Conductor says doors open on your right. If you are riding backwards, doors actually open on your left! Let's not confuse them any more than they already are!
In DC, where this is standard practice, seats in all the trains face forward AND backward. The operative word is not "on your xxxx side" but "on THE xxxx side". I would have to say that many NYC passengers are indeed like sheep, but in DC there are a lot of tourists, many unfamiliar with subways and the like, PLUS a lot of locals look like they don't know which end is up and still they take the additional step of announcing the door opening side. I do belive this is with particular attention to the visually disabled. It may not work in every situation here in New York, but I still think it's worth a try.
Wayne
Like I said the training has to be improved before you can obtain an improved trainee. If the man who rear ends my car is not perfect, then neither is the one who operates train doors. If the TA bean counter says that all who pass a multiple choice exam will start training today and run trains within 2 months then what do you expect? We are GROSSLY understaffed and need the people who are down here to avoid mandated overtime. If the TA is not picky about who they hire, don't JUST blame the conductors. By the way if you thought pointing at boards would improve service, imagine the announcement made by the motorman on the original Pelham 1-2-3 as he says to the passengers "watch your step near the third rail".
Harry please do not get me wrong - I am not maligning the C/Rs- they as a whole do a superb job keeping passengers informed and very few are those who don't announce stations (yes, there are a few; and some may be the victims of faulty PA systems). The only point I was trying to make was that announcing the side on which the doors open may prevent the unfortunate incidents this thread refers to from occurring again, and in addition, also may be an aid to those passengers who have impaired vision.
I for one would endeavor to announce the door opening sides once past the probationary period, if hired to do so.
And every workplace (including the one I currently inhabit) has at least ONE total incompetent. It's just the way things are. We try and deal with it as best we can.
Wayne
Adding the phrase "doors open on the..." adds between 1.8 and 2.3 seconds to the overall total announcement time. If I announce after I hit the boards, just as the train comes to a full stop, as many C/Rs do, the difference is cancelled out. Note: I'm not sure if the regs mandate that the train be fully berthed before the announcement(s) are made.
Wayne
Not to long ago you were not to make any announcements from the time your cab hit the station until you acknowledged the board and opened the doors. This in theory was to ensure that you were paying attention to the fact that there is a station outside your cab and that you are waiting to observe the board. You should look for the board as the train is entering the station for another reason. If the the Train Operator fails to make a regular station stop the Conductor must stop the train. When you see that board come and go its a pretty good indication that the Train is not stopping. If you wait untill you see tunnel again you will have waited to long before pulling the cord. Getting back to announcements. Next they wanted all announcements made in station after the doors were open and none while the train was moving. Its been awhile since I've been on the road so I don't know what there lattest gimmick might be. If I were to hit the road tommorow I would do it the way I always did it.
Just before my cab entered the station I would ID the upcoming stop, transfers, other services and points of interests. Then I would observe that there was a station and a platform outside my cab. As the train slows I begin looking for the board, when I see the board I drop window(If train does not stop I pull the cord). When the train stops I acknowledge the board, insert key in MDC rotate to on and open the doors. Announce, ID the train, what the next stop is, stand clear.....Please. Close the doors and get out of the station. Safety being my main concern. Those stations you can get out of quickly, by all means, get out quickly. I try never to play games I stay focused on what my job is, and I let no one drag me down. If kids play on the outside of the train, it does not move, or if I have already passed idication I stop the train. Any time I have observed any thing on the out side of my train, after I have passed indication, That was not supossed to be happening I have pulled the cord. When a person knows there job and does what they are supposed to do they can be proud and know they did the best they could do. Everyone makes mistakes, I have made mistakes, if you survive the mistake you had better have learned from it. You may not be as lucky the second time.
One thing I have never done is open the train doors on the wrong side were there was not platform. The conductor who commits such a violation should be fired or put out to pasture, what ever the case may be. These jobs are not hard to learn, but one thing they due require is strict attention to duty. Something a minority of conductors have failed to factor in to the job. Yea, the training is the pits, but I spent quite a bit of my own time to make sure I knew the job. If a Counductor is not looking for a Board no amount of training is going to help.
Taking a wrong lineup may be different than opening up on the wrong side. In taking a wrong lineup, the train operator in many cases is brand new, pushed out of school car too soon, and simply screwed up. There is no customer safety issues here, although I do admit lots of inconvenience and grief for his pasengers and innocent conductor! A wrong lineup entails taking that bottom green where you needed that bottom yellow or vice versa.
The Train Operator is probably a ROOKIE!
All train operators were rookies once.
It just proves what I said to several people on the job when the TA came up with the idea of the conductors pointing to the board so as to end for all time the possibility of a conductor opening up on the wrong side: if you are not paying attention to your job, pointing becomes as routine as opening the window, inserting the key, and pushing the buttons to open the doors. I heard a lame excuse a few years ago of a conductor opening the doors on the wrong side: "Well, I DID see the board." Yeah right: He was on a 2 track line and saw the board across the tracks in the opposing direction and opened up! I can assure you, once a conductor opens up on the track side, his/her conductor career is over! A conductor who may be reading the paper, nodding off (transverse cabs are dangerous for the conductor IMHO), or talking to a pretty lady outside the cab, may have his mind off his job and may all of a sudden insert the key and open up even in between stations as soon as the train stops no matter where. It has happened! When I was qualified as a conductor almost 20 years ago, the school car Motor Instructors told us: "In a transverse cab, it is a motormans seat, not a conductors chair. You are required to be standing up in that cab all the time and be seen by passengers in between stations." I don't know if that still is official policy.
The idea of pointing at the conductor's boards is not new nor is it an NYCT invention. In Tokyo, I'm told that the motormen salute the leaving signal at every station. It only works as long as the crews take it seriously.
Right now, the TA is also considering a low-tech solution to the problem of opening on the wrong side as well. The scheme would involve the motorman enabling the door circuits. In this way, the Motorman and conductor would need to agree on which side the doors would open or none would. Therefore, the'd both need to screw up for the doors to open on the wrong side.
The NYCT has some really good conductors; Conductors who know the equipment and take their job very seriously. There is also some real garbage out there. They come from some of the lower titles with little education and the idea that the job of conductor has as much responsibility as their former title and pays more. They don't give the awesome responsibility the attention it deserves. My opinion is echo's one elsewhere in this thread. A conductor who opens on the wrong side should be summarilly fired and charged with "Aggrevated Reckless Endangerment".
There have been 6 instances of Conductors opening up on the wrong side since January.
Steve, I wholeheartedly agree, opening the wrong side doors on a subway train is nothing less than criminal STUPIDITY and that's the way I feel about it Maybe training should be improved and that voting circuit where the T/O and conductor have to agree on which doors to open shows promise but I wouldn't want to have to work with anyone that unsafe if I were a subway employee
What do you mean by "anyone that unsafe"? A man or woman cound have 20 years on the job, make an error due to innattention and be branded unsafe?! An unsafe act and an unsafe person are in two different catagories.
True an unsafe person and an unsafe act are two different things but the results are the same. There is no excusing a conductor who is so inattentive that they open on the wrong side. I'd fire them for the first offense. If someone were to be hurt as a result, I'd want criminal charges to be brought...
If I remember the books correctly, Robert Luciano of Malbone Street fame was brought on manslaughter charges but the BRT took the brunt of the damage for putting a poorly trained person behind the throttle. Training means everything as to whether negligence is present. A poorly trained person can defend himself in court by stating an engineer get 12 months at LIRR and 15 months at NJT but only 50 to 75 days in NYCT. Id like to see what would happen if a T/O were to wreck his train and then be brought on charges. If the J line T/O lived who is to say that driving while drowsy would get him the time that the fourteenth St T/O did for depraved indifference to manslaughter (I beleive). Lets here from the Lawyers!
The conductor on an NYCT train has a tremendous responsibility, considering that curves at some platforms obscure the doors and the passengers themselves have little or no respect for the employees. To allow someone who is indifferent, irresponsible, unqualified or inadequately trained to hold the position is an insult to every responsible employee the TA has, not to mention the customers. Do these guys who open the doors on the wrong side use seeing eye dogs or red and white canes?
If my regular conductor is not at work, I have to work with the conductor assigned. If I have never previously worked with that person before, I have no idea if he/she works in an unsafe manner or not. For that matter, he/she doesn't know if I work in a safe or unsafe manner either. I consider opening on the wrong side a matter of stupidity. No conductor in his right mind will intentionally open on the wrong side, or with a train not fully berthed in a station. Even if someone is injured or killed, I have been on enough criminal juries to know that to be convicted of something criminal, INTENT must be present. Now civil action is another matter.
When I visited Tokyo a few years ago, I spoke to a senior officer of the subway system there. He explained to me that the "point" was a Japanese sign of safety. So when the motorman "points to the sky" before taking power, he is signaling that not only has he received indication, but he has checked with all his senses -- and determined it was safe to go.
The steel is really flying!!!!
The last elevated girders were placed on the Manhattan side on Saturday. The only major steel left are some stringers on the west side of the main bridge.
Tracks are being installed on the Brooklyn elevated approach.
Comparing my before and after pictures,it is really obvious how much the structure has been lowered at the elevated connection.
Sounds good! Are they actually using traditional box-girder construction out there? Of course, the devil's in the details, as usual - the electrical stuff, signals, etc. etc.
Too bad they couldn't do this on the Manhattan Bridge.
Wayne
The girders are welded fabrications, not riveted. They are pre-assembled in pairs to speed erection. I think this is because the work was designed by DOT and not the TA.
I know that some of you work at the Trolley Museum of New York and might be able to verify the accuracy of this information:
In 1973 45 or the remaining 48 SIRT ME-1 Motors were scrapped.
Three cars survived 353 at Clifon and 366 and 388 on the former Travis Branch. 353 was subsequently moved to join the other two.
These three cars were (I believe) purchased by the Trolley Museum of New York at Kingston but remained on Staten Island for many years.
#366 was sold to Seashore Trolley Museum and was removed on 11/6/93.
#388 was sold to the Shoreline Trolley Museum and removed in 5/94.
#353 remains on Staten Island still owned by the TMNY.
Please note that I am not asking for info about SIRT/NYCTA trailer 508
which was used for several years at Kingston as a Gift Shop and was destroyed by fire in November 1991.
Any info from the Shoreline or Seashore people would also be welcomed.Thanks in advance.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Indeed #366 is at Seashore. I was in NYC the day it was moved, and did a report on "A Subway Going to Maine" for WCBS. A while back I sent Dave a picture of the car for the Museum page; I don't think it's up yet however. (Dave, if it has disappeared from your pile, let me know and I'll resend it.)
Todd: Thank you very much,that one mystery solved. Would you know off hand what paint scheme she is in.
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
IIRC, the car is painted dark blue.
Thank you very much'
Larry,RedbirdR33
Where is #353 currently located?
Unfortunatly 353 will not be coming to TMNY. At the march or April board meeting it was voted upon to disenfranchise the car on site, subject to the approval of Mike Hanna. It is still on the former Con Ed territory unless Sarnelli or Naporano's hasn't removed it yet. 353 is in very poor condition with little interior remaining. Due to the great cost in removing, transporting and lack of manpower for restoration work at TMNY, it will not come to Kingston.
Poor SIRT car!
Even at a museum it's a Second Class Citizen. :-(
Harry: Thanks very much for the update. ITs too bad about 353 but I know resources are limited.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Your info is correct for 388 at Branford.
Jeff: Thank you very much for confirming that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
hey everyone,
i have a question that's been on my mind for the past couple hours. How old were you guys when you became rail fans or subway fanatics or whatever? i'm only 15 and probably one of the youngest people who reads this list if not the youngest. i can remember back to when i was like 7 and wanted to take the subway to the science museum and always wanting to take the T even if it was eaiser to drive. i live in boston but on my last trip to new york in march, i realized just how much i do love the subway. all my friends say i should find a job relating to the subway. i was just curious
Matt
Matt, I started liking the trains at about the same age as you did, age 7. I remember the R-100's while going to Yankee Stadium in the 60's with my younger brother and Father and Grandfather. I always stood in the front car so i can see out the window. Now at the age of 42 i still like standing at the front window of a train that does not have a full width cab like the #1 or # 7 tain to Shea Stadium.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Matt,
You're definitely not the youngest, but close! My grandfather and great-grandfather both worked for the PTC, the trolley company in Philadelphia, and I remember walking up my grandfather's street in Philly with him to watch the trolleys on Germantown Ave., this would have been in the mid 1970s. Thru high school I didn't really have the interest but when I got to college and had access to nyc.transit that's when I got back into it. Then the web started, and you know the rest!
-Dave
(Webmaster of www.nycsubway.org)
I am 17 Years old and had been a Railbuff at 6 Years old. But more of one now. I like Rideing on my dads train the whole 8 HRS. Just looking out the storm door on a Redbird is FUN day. My intrest started at 3 Years old watching Mr.Rogers I loved that Trolley Car. Then by accident I triped over my dads book on Ele's. Then at the age of 7 my mom would take me on my dads train and around 14 Years old I just went buy my self. This summer I am planning on doing a Railfan trip around the subway once a week. Probably on Wednesday's. I only have 3 Trips in mind. 1. Ride the A Train from 207 Street to far Rock Then Far Rock to Broad Channel then to Beach 116. Beach 116 to Euclid if there a cross over sooner to go back to Lefferts let Me know. Then Lefferts Blvd to 168 Street. Then 168 Street to 242 Street.
2, Ride the N Train from Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island hopefully a R 42. Then Coney Island to Times Square then to Main Street and back. Maybe run into some of My IRT friends. Then Take the No.1 back to 242 Street.
Dave JR
Go treat yourself to a ride on the Q. Get on at 34th Street or above. That's a railfan experience not to be missed. It's fun watching them leave the slow R68s in the dust once they're outdoors.
Wayne
I will age that to my weekly summer Joyride.
I was a subway (and bus) fan for as long as I can remember. When I was 4 or 5 I can remember looking at the nearby 2 & 5 trains from my window. My elementary school was on Tremont Ave close to West Farms Square and I would always watch the trains. I always liked all trains, but I was really interested in M.U. trains which is true for me to this day.
Wayne
I actually got my start when I was 2 or 3 years old and my Mom, Dad or cousin who used to baby-sit took me in a stroller to the Avenue P overpass by the Sea Beach tracks - those triplex's looked awesome to such a young tot. My Dad would take me for occasional rides, even though he wasn't a rail buff. At around age 5 I actually took my first trip "alone" on the Sea Beach - from Bay Parkway to New Utrecht Ave and return. Of course, my Dad was following closely, just in case! As Ed Alfonsin knows, my elementary school had some classrooms facing the Culver Line, and I got lucky a few years - loved watching those BMT Standards going by. When I moved from Brooklyn to Long Island at age 11, I expanded beyond the subway and became an LIRR and bus fan.
All I know is that I wasn't old enough to see up to the railfan window on the R1-9's that ran on the Concourse Line. We lived in the Bronx until I was six... so it had to be at an age of six or under!
My earliest memories are of riding an F of R-1/9 cars from Delancey to Roosvelt and then a local to 63rd Drive in 1972.
I remember the huge end signs of the R-40's when they were new then. It was an influence. The wooden blocks I played with coincedently had a red F. Of course it became the lead car of my "train".
From then on I was hooked.
my memories: As a child in the late 50s I would take lego type blocks and build stations and use alphabet blocks as trains. Of course they'd have BMT and IRT and I set them up so I could turn the blocks to change the sign! If I could not take out the blocks, I'd get the phone book, use a punch can opener and run along the map in the phone book. I remember the Lo-V, AB and standards where still running. The new kids on the block were the R16 or r17(the red seats which were padded and later replaced by coral fiberglass). I remember the excitement of the new brightliners (R32) and the World's fair Cars with the european Tilt in Windows (now standard system wide)and in the new two tone blue color.(that they should have left in the original color!)
I better stop now before I overwhelm the site with my fondest memories and risk Dave's wrath!
(Am I that bad that you think I'd be upset about posting subway memories????? That's what the site is for!)
As a child in the late 50s I would take lego type blocks and build stations and use alphabet blocks as trains.
Remember Lincoln Logs? Specifically the green slats that were used to build the roof of your "cabin"?
Well, ALL of my Lincoln Log slats had side images of the beloved R-32 hand-drawn onto them, and I'd tape 10 together and drag them around the carpeting in my room, which would make "tracks". A shoe box made a fine station, I might add.
I also figured out a way to turn a roll of toilet paper into a train. All you needed was a table with slats in it (so you could watch the "elevated" train on its "el" fromunder the table) and a lot of imagination. Sure wish I had one of those Scott 1000-sheet roles when I was a kid!
My folks had purchased a number of metal shelving kits when I was young (we were living in an apartment for a short time and this was "short term" shelving). Some of the shelve connectors looked very much like the girder bridges on the Brighton line, and others were thin pieces of metal with three holes in it (used to adjust the shelves' height). Three holes corresponded perfectly with any IRT train at the time, so I instantly had an IRT fleet to join my "R-32s". And I even had plate girder bridges to run my trains over.
I couldn't have been older than 9 years old at the time.
--Mark
Oh yes- I remember them well. Do you remember the erector sets (I never had one but saw them at the Gilbert Hall of Science which was near Broadway and 23rd street). OK- I celebrated my semi-centenial last October.
Bring back the 15cent fare, and the Lo-V trains!!!
And Q's on Myrtle, Standards all over Brooklyn, PCC's on McDonald, Gate Cars, And the WHOLE Third Avenue El.
Yes, I remember the Erector Set. Always wanted one but was too young to have one.
--Mark
Well, I guess there are advantages to being old after all. I had my own set, inspired by Sputnik I guess, that built a rocket that bore a surprisingly good resemblance to the Apollo/Saturn V. I also had my Dad's set, in a green metal box, that I could use to build a steam engine, a crane, a bridge, and lots of other things. The two sets weren't directly compatible, however - the girders were slightly different widths and consequently the grooves didn't line up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems common (at least in this thread) that railfans of today had "engineering" toys as kids - erector sets, building blocks, Legos, or my particular favorite, the girder & panel building/bridge construction kits. Of course nowadays you can't get any of that stuff, really. Even legos are not the free-form building toys they used to be. Now your lego kits can basically be used to build the one thing that's pictured on the box.
Quite true, Dave. However, the Meccano folks in France who now own Erector produce several large sets that can be used for a wide variety of projects, as well as a number of specialized sets that are aimed at just one thing. Unfortunately, they are hideously expensive - my recollection is that the retail price in 1995 of the largest set was around $220 (we sold them at The Hobby Shop in Raleigh, NC, with which I have been involved for a number of years), and consequently they are out of reach of many families. Nowadays, as well, the family that has money to spend on only one or two relatively big-ticket "toy" items doesn't think Erector or Lionel either - they think iMac or Compaq or some such. Priorities have changed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nowadays, toys don't leave as much to the imagination as they did when I wes younger. My favourite thing to do as a kid was to build my matchbox city with my matchbox cars, my snap-and-build house sets (I was great at making 7 story tenements and who cares if one of my cars was 3 stories tall) and my HO-scale trains as my "subway". I didn't have directions to follow - I basically just created cities on the fly. Today, you can buy a road set that you just have to assemble once and it doesn't give you much flexibility. Both hot-wheels and Matchbox make these kind of sets.
--Mark
I had Legos - STILL HAVE 'EM! they're not assembled into anything. Plus Lionel Trains (027 gauge) set up on a 8x4 wall board with Bachmann "Plasticville U.S.A." buildings. Later on, in 1984-1987 I had a 2 x 8x4 set-up with seven Bachmann Brill Trolleys and about 80 buildings. Still have it all, but it's not set up. And I need all new track, three of the trolleys need new motors and the power-pack is just about shot.
Wayne
You had those Kenner Girder and Panel/Bridge and Turnpike sets, too? I still have mine in the garage somewhere, along with my Lego bricks, but most of the cross braces aren't usable. I always tried to duplicate the Chicago Skyway, which remains one of my all-time favorite bridges to this day.
How about Tinker Toys? I had those, too.
Oh yes - I built many a telephone booth and jet airplane with those.
When I was done playing with the jet airplane, it was always fun to crash it into a wall before I put the tinkertoys back in their can.
--Mark
I have an Erector set from about 1965, when Gilbert was very near the end. There was a train store called Julie's not far from the Hall of Science which sold American Flyer, as well as Savoy Merchandise on W. 23rd St. Then there was Madison Hardware, but they sold Lionel.
I used to make a long freight train out of wooden building blocks. They came in a cloth bag and when you dumped them onto the floor, it sounded like a 4000-series Chicago L train passing by.
Though I've only been posting for about 2 or 3 months, I've been coming to this site since I was 14 and have been a railfan since about 10. Many of my earliest memories are of riding the MFL with my family every Saturday to go here or there. One day, when I was 10, I started to ride the El by myself to school and wanted to learn more about it.
When I started to hear tales about the subways of other cities(particularly of New York) I read what I could and asked questions(though I rarely got satisfactory answers).
I'm 16 and have learned a lot since then. I'm the lone sheep among my friends and family who's a railfan, but it's a perk of sorts. Whenever someone goes to a city with a subway(particularly New York) I'm either asked directions or, if it's close by like New York, I'm asked to come along!
Hey, there are other things a 16 year old could be up to>:)
From about the age of 5 (around 1960) on - I remember riding the subway to go into the city to restaraunts, the New York World's Fair - family gatherings. The subway and sometimes railroad - always took me places that bring back good memories.
The flexibility and coverage of the New York City subway system were awesome then and still are now.
In my era - R1-9 cars were the mainstay of the E, F & GG Queens lines (as well as most other IND trains) where we travelled most often. Their distinctive paddle fans, air doors, caned seats, incandescent lightbulbs and severeley aged appearence gave these cars an aura that reminded the rider they had clearly been built prior to World War II and were quite old.
In that time (the early 60s)the interior of the subway was a bit more interesting. Advertisements were all over the place. Various vending machines were in place throughout the subway. The culture was different. For example - My Dad got a ticket for carrying a lit pipe into the subway. He had forgotten to put it out before entering the system. Of course back then - lots of men smoked a pipe. But I haven't seen much of that lately. Seems so long ago.
My interest in the subway increased as I became old enough to explore some of it on my own. I recall riding on some very unique trains particularly on the old BMT. I rode Q cars on the Myrtle Avenue El and Standards on the LL Canarsie line. Riding on these trains was like rding on an operating museum. My Dad told me that he rode those same trains to school and here we were generations later - still on the same trains.
From a historical perspective - much of this equipment was built before the "Great Depression." When this equipment was relatively young or new, Laurel & Hardy and the Three Stooges were playing first run movies. Hitler was only beginning his rise to power. Korea and Viet Nam were generations away in future time. And when that future time came, these sturdy old machines were still in service and going strong. They were impressive. The last R9s were withdrawn from service in 1977 - 3 years after we pulled out of Viet Nam.
In the early 70's, I would frequently ride the Myrtle Ave El to the end and by Metropolitan Avenue - where one could see lots of cars during the day in the yard. Many were I think awaiting the scrapper. Cars sitting in the yard seemed to always include some Q cars as well as R1-9s and perhaps some Standards. It was sad to see them finally go.
Some subway equipment seemed static over the years. But change was afoot.
When I was 12, I rode several R11s on the Franklin Shuttle. Only 10 of these were ever built and a ride on one was something special. Although they were never produced in quantity, they were among the first stainless steel cars built. They were a peak into the future for folks in the 50s.
The "Modern Era" was ushered in with the "Budd Brightliners" - R32s on the Brighton, Sea Beach, West End Express and local trains - the Q, QB N, NX, TT and QT. Those R32s had a deep blue door color with Stainless steel fluting over the car body and green illumiation on destination signs. And as for speed - the R32s would just fly on the Brighton Express and the NX. The rebuilt R32s of today don't really do justice to the as delivered R32s. They seemed like man's greatest technology at the time.
The Slant R40's came just a few years later. They looked "space age" with their angled noses and came on line while I was in my teens. These were the first trains that were air conditioned in sizable numbers (about half the fleet of R40s came delivered with air conditioning.) By the time I was in college, I found Slant 40s on the E & F - something we'll probably not see again.
And at that same time (the mid 70s) I began to see some of the ancient equipment leave for the scrapper. I saw R1-9s at Coney Island yard queing up for the scrapper where a generatioon earlier - brand new R32s were put in service. It's hard to imagine but some day - that same yard will probably be part of the deadline for R32s and R40s.
I'll miss them too. But I think I miss the R1-9s and the Q cars the most - and oh yes the Standards too. They were part of a different time - from long ago - - from the time of burlesque theaters, the "Roaring 20s", the WPA, the era of steam engines and trolley cars, from before the war and from before so many things in this world and in our lives moved on with inevitable change.
When I joined the ERA at the age of 12 (#2305) one of the questions on the application was how long I'd been a railfan. I don't remember what I put down, but it had to evaluate to "always."
It's the kind of hobby which I think most people are born to.
I found out fairly late in life that by dad was a railfan, though not as intense. My daughters both like to ride trains and my younger loves to study "The Map."
Yikes! You don't suppose it's genetic, do you?
I can't remember a time in my life when I wasn't a railfan. Yes, the interest has ebbed from time to time, but it's never disappeared. Its focus has shifted; when I was young (at the end of the age of steam) I summered with my grandparents, third house up from a small branch yard with a pair of Consolidations to handle the switching duties (diesels handled all the trains on the branch). When I was older, I got hooked on the GG-1 and other PRR mainline electrics, and on streetcars as well. A year in Spain as an exchange student piqued my interest in subways (the Barcelona Metro, although not nearly as extensive then as it is now, was still a marvelous system). And I was in and out of NYC and Chicago often as well, so the subway in NY and Chicago's "L", plus the North Shore Line, became favorites, along with the Broadway, Mother's choice of transportation between the two cities. Now, as father of four and grandfather of one, I can count one serious railfan and three "sort-of" fans among my children, and my grandson looks forward to my visits so his Zayda can take him to see the Great Armour Yellow Omaha Borg Machine (a.k.a. UP) and the BNSF Great Pumpkins charge across the desert near his home. (OK, so to him they're just trains, he's only two, but he loves them!)
It's a great hobby!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i remember playing with first set of trains "American Flyer S gauge" when i was 5 or so. going to downtown newark's penn stations to watch the trains about 11 or 12. my first trip was from newark to elizabeth on the PRR. i got scared when the ticket agent asked my age. i lied and said 13. his answer oh you pay full fare of $.41
I've been fascinated by trains for as long as I can remember. As a kid in South Bend, we would frequently see freight trains cruise by on the Grand Trunk Western and New York Central Railroads. I am told that when I was teething and would get restless, my father would bundle me up in the car and drive over to the Grand Trunk Western tracks, perhaps a mile or two from our house, and wait for a train. That always did the trick.
My love for the subway began on July 21, 1965, when I was 8. We were visiting New York and took the subway from Brooklyn to Manhattan - an N train of shiny new R-32s. It was more of the same the next day. I found out much later that the Triplexes made their last runs on the day we left for home, the 23rd. I didn't see them.
Two years later, we moved to New Jersey and began visiting New York regularly. The rest is history.
My career as a railfan began when my mother used to take me in the stroller to Savin Hill Station to watch Old Colony and Subway trains pass below, probably before the age of 2. The old 0600 and 0700 trains on the Cambridge-Dorchester line (now the Red Line) were my favorites, I hated their replacements which arrived when I was 9. Also chased trackless trolleys around the area on trips with my dad, who also introduced me to the gatekeeper at Wyoming Av. on the B&M in Melrose. Before I was 10, I knew how to crank the gates. By the time I was 12, I was riding by myself and at 14 had made friends with the information clerk at Park St. as I travelled to school every day. The rest is history, and I have learned a lot of it through the years.
Good Luck!
Gerry
I was probably about 5.
I have an old book that I wrote in Kindergarten about AAA locals, AA expresses, and A superexpresses on a six track line.
I did my first solo tours of the system when I was 10 after school was over. I had a free school bus/subway pass back then and used it to the max. It drove my poor mom crazy. But the subways were much safer back then in 1963.
I was also 10 (about 4 months short of my 11th birthday) when I started subway riding by myself. I can date it because my first solo transit rides were on the soon-to-be-abandoned Church Ave. trolley.
Until now I thought I was about the only kid who got away with it so young, at least back then.
I don't date back quite so far, but in the 6th grade, you had the option to take the "city bus" instead of the "school bus". You had to be cool, so a sixth grader, of course, would get his "bus pass" and take the "city bus".
Then I heard the "bus pass" was good on the train.
Well, living in Brighton Beach in the 60s and early 70s, rush hours was like giving a kid a spoon to eat a mountain of ice cream! Always lots of action (and the small elevated yard tor layups too). I started taking the D train 2 express stops to Kings Highway where I'd transfer for the B5 (now B82) bus to school. Then I went the other way, taking the QJ into Coney Island, transferring for the F to Kings Highway so I could go "around the horn" (as I called it) at Stillwell Ave. Then I learned that the N train went to Kings Highway so now I had THREE different ways to get to school by subway!
Then I thought my life was over when we moved to Midwood, 2 blocks from school, in the 8th grade. No bus pass! No Brighton Beach EL to watch from my window sill (often falling asleep in the sitting position ON the window sill).
Then I started high school in 1976 on Church Ave & Ocean Pkwy in Brooklyn. And the cycle started all over again. But this time, I got a longer ride on the F train to Church Ave! And I got to go "around the horn" nearly every day! You have no idea how many subway tokens I must have "borrowed" from my father to go out of my way to ride the train). By this time, the Culver Shuttle was out of service but the EL remained standing for many years afterward, and I'd often explore it.
I'm sure I was born with a subway gene. Every once in a while, my doctor asks what that rumbling is when he checks my heart and I tell him that it's an R1/9 train groaning its way to another station with a peak load :) So then he writes a prescription for some kind of headache medicine becuase he's convinced I'm sick in the head .....
--Mark
So then he writes a prescription for some kind of headache medicine becuase he's convinced I'm sick in the head .....
Absolutely, positively, no comment :o)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And the Peanut Gallery comes alive .... :)
--Mark
Matt,
I also became a "subway fanatic" around 7 years of age (1956- there: I've dated myself!). We used to go to Brighton Beach in the summer from Ridgewood, where I grew up. Most of the time we would take the Canarsie line from Myrtle Ave. to Union Square and then change to the Brighton Express (ususally Triplexes, but sometimes Standards). I would always insist that we take the first car so that I could look out the front window.
I've been a subway fanatic ever since my Mother began teaching me my alphabets by pointing to the icons on the wall going up and down the Flatbush Avenue IRT line.
I took my first full-blown day trip in July 1963 at age 8.
I did take a hiatus of sorts in the late 80s-early 90s but came back big time in 1996 and have been going full tilt since then.
I started a photo project, the goal of which is to photograph every station, and am now about 65% complete.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
I knew at age 3 what I wanted to be: a streetcar motorman!! Lying in my upstairs bed in the summer (pre AC) I could hear the Peter Witts winding up going up the hill to Parkville.
Taking a 26 line 3 car train with my parents to Bay Shore Park, and OMSE's (One Man Single End - Brill Semi-convertibles) to my grandparents house. When the 15 car on West Baltimore Street became the 20 bus, it wasn't as much fun. By 1960 I was hanging around the 3 surviving car houses, learning to run PCC's. The happiest day of my early teen years was discovering that there were a bunch of guys that felt exactly the same way. (and a lot of them are still my friends 35 years later) We went everywhere, and because a couple of them had driver's licences, we got to got to Washington (where streetcars ran with their trolley poles hooked down and still flew!) and Philadelphia, with lots of streetcars north, south, east and west.
In early 1963 I even realized my boyhood dream when I became an operator for BTC (out of York Road Car House). That ended on November 3, 1963 when the stinkbuggies took over all Baltimore.
BUT...I had discovered the treasure trove - the historic collection. The cars that the United Railways had set aside in the 1920's - wonderful cars that dated to the 1890' (and a couple even earlier). That collection eventually became the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, where I have membership number(and Badge)20. BSM is my unpaid second job, and 33 years of streetcar management hasn't dampened my love.
I can remember living in the Flatbush section of Brooklyn in 1956 and being VERY interested in the subways. I can remember to this day the first R-21 I rode in one day, that brand new smell, and cleanliness -- it was in 7211. My father took me to the firehouse in the Bronx where he worked, and we were lucky enough to get the very same trainon the way home that afternoon, with 7211 on the rear this time.
I remember riding my tricycle around the back of the Howard Street
yards in Chicago where the trains used to loop to go back to the station. You could stand on Juneway Terrace and see the whole thing.
I must have been 4-5 years old.
Hello Folks, Does any one know when the #7 line will get new cars or the R62As? If someone knows please contact me.Tank you have a nice day.
Never. The Flushing line will be recieving some old Low-Vs that were found at NIMCO.
-Hank :)
And some of the fishbowls over there will be heading to Flushing Garage, right?
Actually, they may come from Toronto. TTC rebuilt over 200 fishbowls (no A/C though).
--Mark
Oh I WISH this was true!!
--Mark
AND some R-15s they found squirreled away in the back of Naporano's! :o) But we probably will have to wait until their GOH (Sumitomo) is complete.
Wayne
Let's hope they're Steinways. Otherwise, it'll be an R-68-like scenario in the Steinway tunnel. Or worse.
The Flushing Line will see ONLY REDBIRDS until the TA exercises for the optional order of R-142's. Right now, all R-142's will be on the #2 and 5 lines. (My lines) Sorry! Besides, The 7 lines running time is only about 30 minutes as compared to the 2 and 5 lines 1 1/2 hour trip time. Therefore the 7 should get ALL the older equipment.
As long as the A/C works the customers probally won't care.
Why should #7 get old equipment because its running time is 30 minutes? The 1-1/2 hour running time for #2 & 5 doesn't mean much, as only a railfan would ride the entire trip. I suspect the average ride on the #2 & 5 is not much longer than the equivalent figure for the #7. Of course, I agree with Thurston - if the A/C works and the R-33S/36's are clean and keep running, who needs new trains on the #7. Long live the redbirds!
I would guess - TA folks, please correct me if I'm wrong - that the reason the older equipment would be placed on the shorter runs is due to a shorter MTBF. On a shorter run, a train that must be deadheaded due to problems has a shorter distance to travel to the yard or, if totally disabled, less time to wait for a tow - in other words, less overall disruption of the line in the event of a failure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That makes alot of sense. Sure explains why the oldest equipment is now on the #2, 5 & 6!
But the R-33S don't have A/C! That's why they must go as soon as possible. All the R-36 (youngest Redbirds) should go to the mainline IRT.
Ba Humbug!
The only solution I see in the near term to the problems faced by the subway is to wait for Rudolph Giuliani to leave office. When we have a mayor who does not think a Second Avenue subway is a priority, and who thinks extending the 7 to the Javits Center is more important, there is no hope for our beloved subways with him in office. And that is just one example, we all could think of others, such as the closure of abandoned station tours, including the beautiful City Hall station, because of a concern for security that verges on paranoia, if it isn't already there.
This mayor has shown himself fully ready to support politically popular decisions (at least as far as subways are concerned) over those that would make sense for the system and the people who use it. I know that political discussions are not encouraged here in Subtalk, but I think this is extremely pertinent. I think all New Yorkers who care about our city and its transportation system should not only wait for Rudy to leave office, but should support and work for WHOEVER opposes him for the Senate.
Do you really think a Senator Rudy Giuliani is going to give a ret's ass (based on prior positions) about what is REALLY needed for the subways of New York?
Remember, if you just sit back, and think that one person doesn't matter, you are wrong, and you then deserve whatever and whoever you get from your elected officials.
Rudy has different transportation policies than many of us. But he is the first Mayor in a long time who has shown any interest in any substantial subway improvements at all. Remember Al Appleton, now with the RPA, under Dinkins ("let's face it, the city's transporation infrastructure is built.") Depending on who the new Mayor is, we might get more subways and renovated schools, but more hospital beds and public housing is more likely.
I think New York City need a intelligent Mayor and get rid of Rudy Giuliani. Im sick of tired hearing his name.
1) Which mayor since Unification (1949) has significantly expanded transit?
2) Why do you believe any future mayor will spend significant city funds on non-critical infrastructure (i.e., non-crisis spending)?
3) Which person or persons who might run for Mayor (of any party) do you feel would be more inclined than Giuliani to spend money on infrastructure than social spending.
(Which future Mayor do you think will be more inclined to spend on intrastructure?)
Based on their public statements, Hevesi is the only one who places an emphasis on public works and debt reduction. I've never done this before, but if I knew where to send it I might even send him a campaign contribuiton.
But keep in mind, the City doesn't control its spending priorities. The state does.
Hevesi is careful with the city's money but isn't here an inherent conflict between his possibly politically motivated desire for more public works, and admirable concern for debt reduction?
(Debt vs. public works). The two have nothing to do with each other. We've increased the debt -- city and state -- without building anything. If we stop cutting taxes and keep cutting operating expenditures, we could build something without increasing the debt.
Larry and Paul said it very well, so I'll just expand a little further.
Why would you elect someone who has proven to care about nothing but her self interests and those of her only true constituents( those welfare checks again) to spite some one who HAS done SOMETHING for New York.
I don't like the Mayor. He's a megalomaniac. (So's Hillary) But at least he's effective. He's got more done than several of our previous mayors. But that still doesn't change my personal opinion of him(as***le)
And Hillary? She only veiws us as to what can NY do for HER. Rudy would at least try to do something for NY.
So back to the point. We should elect a poseur, so we can spite the mayor, because we're angry that he doesn't support transit?
Got news for ya: the mayor's influence on transit is not what you think it is. The Governor, now he's a different story.
Quoting Ed Koch: "pick 12 issues you care about. If a canditate agrees with 8 of those 12, then vote for him. If you find one that agrees with all 12, then your a political flunkie!"
What would Senator Clinton know about the subways??? At best she would want to take our money and build a subway in Little Rock!
I mean reallY!!! I sure don't agree with Gulliani, but at least he's from New York. Anyone outside of Arkansas would have to be crazy to vote for Hillary. Hey, What about Mary Jo Buttafucco for Senate? At least she's from New York!
If you hate Mayor Giuliani, then don't you think that voting for him on the Senate would get rid of him faster? Senators are not as important as the Mayor. Besides, Giuliani is a better person that that Carpetbagging Hillary Clinton.
And where do you all think this wonderful 'next mayor' is going to get the $$ Billions required for massive subway expansions? It isn't like he can print up money in the basement of City Hall. Start increasing taxes and we will repeat the errors of the 1960s and 70s. Companies are extremely mobile, they are not wedded to NYC as in the past. Telecommunications technologies are allowing more and more people to work from home. You can't expect the current wave of budget supluses to continue forever. That's why they call it an economic cycle. If the 'next mayor' is as smart as Giuliani, (I hope) he will be as careful with my tax money has the current mayor has tried to be.
(Careful with the tax money -- economic cycle). We've been burned by being a responsible city in an irresponsible state. We built up a surplus rather than spending it, so the Vampire State eliminated the commuter tax and cut our share of school aid even lower, since we don't need it. They'll spend it elsewhere. When we go into recession, on the other hand, the state doesn't help, because this is where all their money comes from.
I always hate when irresponsible states kick sand in responsible cities' faces.
Someone should send Giuliani a Charles Atlas guide. Maybe he'll even win his girl back.
NYC is a "responsible" city? With ***thirteen*** (last I heard) public money pits AKA hospitals? [n.b. Los Angeles and Chicago manage fine with one each] I'd hate to see an irresponsible city!
Maybe Rudy can invest the city budget in Cattle Futures and make Millions!!! Or maybe he can get China to put up the money for the second avenue line.
Hey, there use to be a really good websight that covered all NYC agencys that I once got throught the Transfer station at Subtalk. Anyone know how to find it or what it's called???
Probably thinking of http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/
-Dave
That's it, thanks alot.
Dear Sir/Madam:
When the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge reopens, how
will the B, D, N and Q trains operate? Will they close the north side
tracks and reroute the B, D, N and Q trains over the south side tracks
and along the Broadway Express tracks? Will they ever run a Broadway-
Brighton Local via the Montague Street Tunnel again like the old QT
in 1960-1967?
Why do all B trains BYPASS DeKalb Avenue even during the non-
rush hours today? I remember the B trains only stopped at DeKalb
Avenue during weekends and evenings, but now they bypass DeKalb
Avenue during weekends as well as weekdays. Why do the B trains
STOP at DeKalb Avenue northbound during 8pm-12 midnight?
James Li
The diversions when the southside tracks are in use are:
B Shuttle from Coney Island to 36th St. (can be extended via tunnel to Broadway Local or Nassau) and from 2nd Av. to north terminal.
D Split Service 57th St.-7th Av. to Coney Island via Broadway Express
and Broadway-Lafayette to 205th St. via 6th Av. Express. D connects at 34th St.
N Coney Island to Ditmars via Sea Beach, 4th Av. Express, Bridge and Broadway Express
Q Coney Island to Queensbridge via Brighton Express, Bridge and Broadway Express
No, the B runs to 57th, Astoria or Queensboro Plaza via exp (it's only a shuttle if the bridge is completely closed); the N stays local in the tunnel; the 6th Av B and D start at 34th St.
That's the way it was from 86-88. I doubt that the B would be shortened to a shuttle only.
Dear Eric B:
When the South side tracks are in service, the service will
be as you stated. But why will the D from Coney Island terminate
at 57th Street-7th Avenue? That will cause delays on the Q which
will run to/from 21st Street-Queensbridge. Why not extending the
D to 21st Street-Queensbridge with the Q or Ditmars Blvd-Astoria
with the N?
I still will like to know why B trains bypass DeKalb Avenue
at ALL TIMES, except in the evenings when a limited number of trains
stop at DeKalb Avenue and run local on 4th Avenue in the northbound
direction?
James Li
They probably won't run the Q to 21st. It'll probably go to 57th as well, while a shuttle runs from 21st to 6th Av. The next bridge change may be around the time the 63rd St connection opens, so it will be the new V service, and I don't see them sending both D and Q into Queens with the V, and it won't go to Astoria because they send the B there. now if they were to build a 600ft section of 2nd Ave, they could terminate one service at 57th of Lexington, relay to the new stub ended section where it could switch to the Brooklyn bound tracks and return, while the other service goes to Queens.
What I wish they would do next time is change that part of the B to T, and the D to U. They could put new signs in the 68's, and paste the new letters over the yellow B and D on the rest, since that has been the practice for the 2/5 diversion last year, and the Marcy Av. terminal now.
The B running local at some times may have something to do with some work trains having to use the exp. tracks, IIRC. But I'm not exactly sure.
You're correct about why the B train uses the local tracks on Fourth ave between 36st and Dekalb aves.
Dear Eric B:
Remember from April 30th, 1995 to November 12th, 1995, when the
Manhattan Bridge was completely closed to subway service? The Q
ran to/from 21st Street-Queensbridge via Broadway Express, Montague
Street Tunnel and Brighton Local to/from Coney Island. They should
extend the D and Q to 21st Street-Queensbridge or Queens Blvd, since
the 63rd Street Tunnel Connector will open then, and they said they
need more service to Queens Blvd to relief the overcrowding on the
E and F Lines. Mr. Peter Dougherty told me that the 63rd Street line
will need at least one service to/from 6th Avenue and Broadway via
the 63rd Street Tunnel to solve the E and F congestion.
Why was the M train also affected when the Manhattan Bridge was
under construction? The M train runs via the Williamsburg Bridge and
the Nassau Street Loop. Will the M train also be affected when the
south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge reopens to service?
What kind of subway cars will we see on the southern BMT Division
lines when the South side service goes into effect? When will this
configuration go into effect? Will it immediately go into effect when
the 63rd Street Tunnel Connection opens in August 2001 or will it go
into effect in 2003?
James Li
In '95 the Bridge was completely closed, and only on middays and weekends, so you only had the Q to worry about, no D,and there was no serive from 6th Av to 21st. But when the Bway side is open, you'll have 3 expresses. On goes to Astoria, the others to 57th.
The M is affected when the bridge is fully closed because they want to give the trainslots to the N Q and R, and the M would get in the way. Now if they had rebuilt the Franklin as a 2 track line, theyc ould have sent alot more Brighton service that way to the new connection to the C, and then given the space to West End, instead of a shuttle
Dear Eric:
On weekends, not many people use the subways as they do on week-
days, why does the B bypass bypass DeKalb Avenue? I remember in the
past, the B stops at DeKalb Avenue during evenings and weekends. Will
they ever make the B stop at DeKalb Avenue during evenings and week-
ends? Will the B run to Queens Blvd on the weekends when the 63rd
Street connection opens in August 2001?
James Li
People at DeKalb for Bridge service have the D, and the 4th Av exp. tracks feed into the bypass, so why not let it bypass? Less switching that way. The only reason the N stopped there on weekends when it was on the bridge was because there was no Q.
I'm not sure what they'll do on weekends on 63rd St.) I've always wondered myself!) What I've heard someone suggest here not too long ago was the V to 2nd Av, and the B go uptown. If it's the Q, others hope for it to run to Brighton Beach, but that would probably be cut to 2nd Av as well.
When the 6th Ave side was closed long term, the D/Q terminated at 57/7. Then and in future closings, it would make no sense to have 21/Queensbridge thru service via the BMT Broadway line when the 6th Ave. side of the M'h'n br. is closed to trains so all IND stations could be served. Grand St. was (remember the R27/30 flat wheels shuttle?) and still can be served as the south terminal in single track operation from north of Bway Lafayette to 21/Queensbridge and eventually beyond when the extension opens. By this operation, 57/6 can be served by that route. If you have the bridge closure after the extension is opened, you can run it as described above, or terminate it at Second Ave. or WTC and have the shuttle operating between Bway/Laf. & Grand.
TYPO: The single track operation takes place from north of Broadway Lafayette to Grand St. station.
Dear Bill:
If they terminated the D and Q at 57th Street-7th Avenue, the R
from Queens may then become overcrowded. Mr. Peter Dougherty said that
they need as least one 63rd Street Service via 6th Avenue and another
via Broadway to releif overcrowdings on the E, F and R trains. Without
the Broadway Express service via Queens Blvd and 63rd Street, the R
will start to jam up and by 2005-2010, it could have the same problem
like the E and F. Why not extending the D and Q to Queens Blvd via
63rd Street to relief overcrowding on the E, F and R altogether. I
think this will add 33% more Manhattan service to the lines. The 63rd
Street Connection project is supposed to add 33% more subway service
and extra lines to relief overcrowdings on the E, F and R lines. Be-
cause the G will be cut back to Court Square 24 hours a day by then.
James Li
You want the D/Q on Queens Blvd. with the Sixth Ave. side closed, but you can't have the D there when it is open! The D/Q would be express via bridge, the R would be local via tunnel. It would be crazy to have 5 services on Queens Blvd. If one track is out for any reason, how can you operate a railroad with 5 services on 1 track? As it is, you can't fit any more trains on the express track since it is saturated during the rush with the E/F. And James, PLEASE dispense with the addressing of Dear Sir/Madam or one individual. It is beginning to drive me nuts!!!!!! I consider this site a group discussion group. Personal conversations to/from individuals are best done via E Mail. Thanks!
When the 6th Av side of the Bridge is closed and the Broadway side open, the do have 5 services on Broadway: the current N & R local, plus the 3 expresses shifted over on the bridge. In fact, this was basically the way it was since 1920, except that the N was express and one of the Brighton trains local. And the express tracks now feed directly into the 63rd St tunnel, so they could use that instead of 6th Av.
I was just reading an article in the Queens Chronicle last night ("Tunnel to Somewhere"), and it said 15 trains would be added, and then it said something about adding 8 on the express and 7 on the local. (and this is with the G replaced), so you could have the 2 Broadway services, but I don't know if they would do it.
The thrust of my point was how much service there is already on the E & F. Look at the timetables on the MTA website. You will find each line operates on a 4 to 5 minute headway in the rush. That is at least 2 trains every 5 minutes. I doubt is any 2 pre Chrystie St. routes had such a tight headway.
The Pre-Chrystie Broadway Express service was approximately every 2 minutes, divided between three lines. The Montague Street tunnel hosted similar headways.
The Dual Contracts specified 90 second headways, but I doubt that would possible now with current train lengths and current operating rules.
The Flushing Line has operated with less than two minutes headways, and I believe there have been others.
Some Manhattan els had less than two minute headways in the direction opposite that of rush hour traffic, but that was line-of-sight operation.
I don't know whether it was pre-Chrystie or post-Christie, but at one time both the E and F were on 4 minute headways, which meant 2 minute combined headways. I think at this same time, the E ran express on 8th Avenue and the A had 4 minute headways, so you also had 2 minute combined headways with the A and E on the 8th Avenue express tracks.
The only time the E ever ran express in Manhattan, to my knowledge, was during rush hours when it continued on to Brooklyn. Such short headways are typical during rush hours, so that would make sense.
Didn't the E run to Jay St. at one time? If so, it could have operated as an express in Manhattan then.
I have a mylar route sign (pre GOH R-46 style I believe, but I'm not sure) that has the E running via 8th Ave. express from 179 Street to Far Rock. The strip maps only indcates the express stations on 8th Avenue.
I think Steve B is at least partially correct. The E ran express on 8th Avenue when it ran to Euclid Avenue and beyond via Fulton St - Brooklyn, which was only in the rush hours. At other times its southern terminal was Hudson Terminal (today's World Trade Center). However, I don't remember whether it ran local or express on 8th Avenue when it went to Hudson Terminal. My guess would be it ran local.
You are correct.The E-train run express down 8th ave in rush hours to
Euclid,Lefferts,Far Rockaway and Rockway Park . During that same time period also used lower level of 42nd street. Non rush hours run local to World Trade using upper level of 42nd street.When train went to Euclid and beyond, it run at one time express in Bklyn than became the local while the A ran express.I rode some of these trains while living in area.
E trains also terminated at Broadway-Lafayette for a time. Some, if not all, R-1/9s had E/8th Ave.-Houston signs to reflect this service. I believe Shore Line's 1689 has these signs; none of my IND roller curtains do.
I remember posters being displayed at 42nd St. when southbound rush hour E trains began using the lower level. This would have been around 1969 or 1970. Back in 1968, I saw a southbound E train of R-38s on the express track at 42nd St. It marked the first time I had ever seen the R-38s. I thought, where did those cars come from? That was the very same day I used the underpass for the first time. After we got to the uptown platform, we boarded a CC train for the Museum of Natural History, and at the same time, a Queens-bound E train of R-1/9s left 42nd St. on the express track. We ran neck-and-neck with the E train, and saw it descend to 50th St. as our train continued northbound.
The rule-of-thumb was this: all Brooklyn-bound rush hour E trains ran express in Manhattan, while trains terminating at Hudson Terminal or Broadway-Lafayette ran local. Over the years, express service in Brooklyn flip-flopped between the A and E.
Steve - I think I'm confused. Are you saying that some E trains ran down 6th Avenue to B'Way Lafayette? Was there another way to reach B'Way Lafayette? Did they somehow make that transition at W. 4th Street?
FWIW - I do remember F trains terminating at B'Way Lafayette - but not E trains.
I believe the E's did run to Broadway-LaFayette even though they ran via 8th Avenue local, with the switch being made just south of West 4th Street. This was definitely prior to the beginning of IND-Culver service, and probably even several years before that. (When IND-Culver service began, the D was extended to Coney Island and the F cut back to Broadway-LaFayette or 34th Street/6th Avenue, depending on time of day or day of week.) It could even go as far back as 1940, prior to the opening of the 6th Avenue local subway, but I'm not sure.
8th Ave. locals can switch over to the 6th Ave. local tracks south of W. 4th St. and vice versa. This is done if B and/or D trains have to be rerouted along 8th Ave. If D trains are rerouted, they are switched over to the local track north of 59th St. There are no other crossover switches along 8th Ave. until Canal St.
If I remember corrctly,
In 1967...During the Rush Hours, the E ran from 179th Street to either Euclid, Lefferts Blvd, Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park and ran express in Manhattan and Brooklyn. In 1968, it stayed the same except E trains did not go to Lefferts Blvd. During Non-Rush Hours, the E ran from 179th Street to Chambers Street-Hudson Terminal (now World Trade Center) and ran local in Manhattan.
Dear Eric:
I remember in 1987-1988, when the B ran to Astoria during the
weekdayd hours, why did it STOP at 49th Street-7th Avenue. But when
the B terminated at 57th Street-7th Avenue, the B SKIPPED 49th Street-
7th Avenue.
James Li
Switching considerations have Astoria-bound expresses switching to the local track between 34th and 42nd. That is why they make 49th Street.
The Brighton Express did the same when it operated to Astoria.
Dear Eric:
When the Broadway Services go into effect, what subway cars will
run on the B, D, N, Q and R lines? Will there be any more subway car
switching like the subway car switching on the B and Q in November
1997? Will the new R-143s run on these lines when this Broadway
service goes into effect? In what year and month will this Broadway
service take effect?
James Li
James,
Just a reminder! The majority of us who contribute to this Web site are subway fans, not employees of the system. We can only speculate (and dream!). It also turns out that one of the NYCT employees who visits this site on occasion revealed to us that plans for use of the 63rd Street tunnel and associated Broadway/6th Avenue/Queens Blvd lines are not finalized.
So continually asking individuals about service changes may get you our opinions (or desires!) but it won't get you established facts. It's terrific when our NYCT friends do share information with us about future service plans, but it's rare because many decisions have yet to be made.
Detailed questions of this matter are often unnoticed by the TA workers as well. Car assignments usually are provided no more than a month in advance of the pick change subject to change by a general order. Any rumors I hear from supervision is just that until I see the timetables. I heard a rumor three years ago from both a superintendant and a T/O that the D line was going to get R-40 and R-42 cars again. Similarly you can't place a car on a line when it hasn't been delivered yet. The line's timetable gives all this information such as car types used, minimum and maximum train lengths. You will just have to wait like everyone else.
It is pretty well known that the new cars are for the L, and if they get enough, may spill over to the M. The assignments for the Broadway service are generally the same as any other time, except that the B & D are cut in half, so one half will have the 68's and the other the 68A's. Unless of course, there is some major switch between now and then.
As for the dates, I hear 2001 or 2003.
Dear Bill:
They can run the Queens Blvd Line as follows ONLY when the 6th
Avenue side of the Manhattan Bridge is closed, the Broadway side is
opened and the 63rd Street Connection opens:
(B) BROADWAY-WEST END EXPRESS VIA BRIDGE
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn (Weekdays 6am-9:30pm)
(B) QUEENS BLVD-BROADWAY-WEST END EXPRESS VIA BRIDGE
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn (Weekdays 9:30pm-12am, weekends, only when
the Q is NOT running.)
(D) QUEENS BLVD-BROADWAY EXPRESS/ BRIGHTON LOCAL VIA BRIDGE OR TUNNEL
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn (All Times, via Tunnel 6am-9:30pm and via
Bridge all other times.)
(E) QUEENS BLVD EXPRESS/ 8TH AVENUE LOCAL
Jamaica Center/ Parsons-Archer, Queens
World Trade Center, Manhattan
(F) QUEENS BLVD-6TH AVENUE-CULVER LOCAL
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn (All Times)
(G) BROOKLYN-QUEENS CROSSTOWN LOCAL
Court Square, Queens
Smith-9th Streets, Brooklyn OR Church Avenue, Brooklyn.
(All Times, extended to Church Avenue rush hours ONLY.)
(N) BROADWAY-SEA BEACH EXPRESS VIA BRIDGE OR TUNNEL
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn (All Times, local in Brooklyn evenings,
nights and weekends. Local in Manhattan and via Tunnel 12am-6am.)
(Q) QUEENS BLVD-BROADWAY-BRIGHTON EXPRESS VIA BRIDGE
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Brighton Beach, Brooklyn (Weekdays 6am-9:30pm)
(R) QUEENS BLVD-BROADWAY-4TH AVENUE LOCAL VIA TUNNEL
71st-Continental Avenues/ Forest Hills, Queens
95th Street-4th Avenue/ Fort Hamilton, Brooklyn (All Times.)
They can run the F and R local in Queens and run the D and Q express
in Queens on weekdays 6am-9:30pm and run the B express in Queens
ONLY when the Q is NOT running, because the G will be cut back to
terminate at Court Square 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They can
also restore the N express on Broadway and have the D replace the
N via tunnel from Canal Street to DeKalb Avenue ONLY on weekdays
6am-8pm, when the Q is running.
James Li
Wow three expresses ummmmmmmm..........
Much of this thread has been written by those with more detailed knowledge than I, but I do get one idea -- 50 years ago it was possible to operate more trains, at higher speeds, on a stretch of track than it is today.
Lets think about this. Is there any other business where operational efficiency has gone down? Does the phone system carry fewer calls? Do cars get fewer miles to a gallon.
Nope, just about everything is better, cheaper, or both (well, the law isn't better and health care housing and higher education are better but not cheaper, but just about everything else).
Is the infrastructure worse? Is it a fail-safe mentality? What happened?
[why the train-carrying capacity of a subway track has declined]
I'd attribute it to a fail-safe mentality. Eliminating the key-by option has had a big effect. If the subway system had modernized its signals, things would be better today, but naturally very little has been accomplished.
We can speculate forever on how this will be done, but the bottom line is we will find out what it is going to be whenever the run books from which the motormen & conductors pick from are published. Suggest your service plan directly to Operations/ Planning at 130 Livingston St. I give you a lot of credit in that your plan is well thought out. Keep in mind whatever service plan is adopted, it must provide maximum productivity/cab time for the workers otherwise the TA will never go along with it! I have a problem with the D: Lets say someone is on an E from WTC going toward Queens. It would be confusing for someone to transfer to the Ds at 7Ave/53 St. for a D to the Bronx and for someone else to transfer to a D somewhere in Queens to a D to 179 St. I think one of the lines need a different letter!
It would definitely be changed to W, if it were extended to Queens. I've been saying they should change it even when it goes to 57th. (The B would become T).
What will happen to the CPW local service?
That would be covered by the B Train running north from 2nd Av.
The problem is, the B division has a car shortage that won't be remedied by the R142s. If you have one set of trains running from the north and east through Manhattan on 6th Ave, and another set of trains running from the south (Brooklyn) and through Manhattan on Broadway, there will be an overlap were there is now through service. There will not be enough trains.
I don't really have a solution for this. Should have built the damn DeKalb to Rutgers tunnel connection.
Dear Sir/Madam:
I would like to know how the IND Lines operated in 1932-1960?
What were the terminals for the following lines in 1932-1960?:
(A) 8th Avenue-Washington Heights Express
(AA)8th Avenue-Washington Heights Local
(BB)6th Avenue-Washington Heights Local
(CC)8th Avenue-Concourse Local
(D) 6th Avenue-Concourse Express
(E) 8th Avenue-Queens Express
(F) 6th Avenue-Queens Express
(GG)Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Local
(HH)Shuttle
James Li
This is all documented elsewhere on the site, look at the FAQ under Route Color/Names - What's the History of the Letters & Numbers?
-Dave
p.s. is there a particular Sir or Madam you always address your posts to? If so, why? You are aware hopefully that this is not an official site and there isn't a single person assigned to answer inquiries...
James: That's quite a tall order but I do have the information that you are looking for. Why don't you e-mail me at RedbirdR33 @ hotmail and well talk about getting the info to you.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I might be wrong, but:
(A) 8th Avenue-Washington Heights Express
1932-33: 207 Street to Hudson Terminal (WTC) express normally, local nights
1933-36: From 207 to HT, Local
1936-40: 207-Rockway Ave, Local (Rutgers or Cranberry?)
1940-42: 207-Rockaway Ave Express in Manhattan not nights, local in Brooklyn.
1942-1948: As above, extended to B'way-ENY
1948-1956: Extended to Euclid
1956-1976: Extended to Rockaways, I don't know how.
(AA)8th Avenue-Washington Heights Local
1932-33: 168-HT, Local no night sevice
1933-40: No service at all
1940-85: As in 1932, but no Rush Hour service either
(BB)6th Avenue-Washington Heights Local
1940-67: 2 Ave-168, Local Rush Hours
(CC)8th Avenue-Concourse Local
1933-1940: Went Express in Manhattan, Local in Bx from HT-205 (or Bedford Park?)
1940-76: Local, Rush Hours only, BPB-HT
(D) 6th Avenue-Concourse Express
1940-1954: Church Avenue (modern F) to 205, no express was possible on 6th, Express on CPW and in peak direction on Concourse.
1954-67: Extended to CI in Brooklyn via BMT Culver
(E) 8th Avenue-Queens Express
1933-36: Roosevelt Ave-Church Avenue, Express in Queens and Manhattan.
1936-37: Did it switch to Rutgers Tunnel?
1937-40: Extended to Union Turnpike and then 169, I don't know exactly when. Went local after 71/Continental.
1940-53: Rerouted via Cranberry Tunnel, and to Fulton Line Express along with all of it's extensions
1953-56: extended to 179
1956-76: Rockaways
(F) 6th Avenue-Queens Express
1940-53: From 2 Ave-169 via Manhattan Local, Queens Express
1953-67: Extended to 179
(GG)Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Local
1933-1968: Ran Local from Roosevelt Avenue, then 71, to wherever the Crosstown ended, then to Smith/9. I don't have details.
(HH)Shuttle
1936-46: Court Street (modern Transit Museum)-Hoyt/Schermerhorn
Please respond with corrections and additons, I want to know too!
The GG terminated at Nassau Ave for the first 2 years the Queens Blvd Line operated, starting at Roosevelt Ave (1936-38?)
The GG terminated at Nassau Ave for the first 2 years the Queens Blvd Line operated, starting at Roosevelt Ave (1936-38?) The E ran along the Houston Street line from West 4th St. to Church Ave. from the year it opened (1933?) until the 6th Ave line opened in 1940.
The E went to Rockaway Park only in rush hours, running local in Brooklyn. All other times it terminated (as always) at Hudson Terminal/WTC..
When I first started being a fan, I can remember the BB, when it ran, running only to 34-6.
The F, before Chrystie, ran to Bway-Lafayette normally, and 34-6 nights.
I believe that the 6Av express opened before Chrystie and so you saw some services run as far as W4 before turning around.
Question before the floor: Before the 6Av Express tracks, what did expresses such as the D do? Switch over to local tracks after 34-6?
Just a nit here about the F - I recall it running to 2nd Ave/Houston prior to the change when it began terminating at Broadway Lafayette. But I'm getting older now and so I'll just say that was my impression.
The F was extended to 2 Av from Bway Lafayette on July 11,1966 for about a one month period. Trains ran via the local tracks between West 4 St and 2 Av and terminated on the express tracks at 2 Av. This allowed work on the express tracks for the connection to Chrystie St.
Larry,RedbirdR33
< Before the 6Av Express tracks, what did expresses such as the D do? Switch over to local tracks after 34-6? >
Yes, switched, I believe between 42nd & 34th Streets.
As you may be aware, the Hudson Tubes tracks are between the 6th Ave. local tracks. The City had some right of recapture or condemnation over these tracks, and for quite a while there was some fantasy that these might become the 6th Avenue Express tracks.
Even the City must have realized how impractical this was, given the narrow profiles of the Tubes, and became sensible enough to build the current "deep" express tracks.
The H&M tunnels were built to IRT clearances, and the cost of retrofitting them to IND/BMT specs would have been prohibitive.
BTW, did you ever notice all the switches between 34th and 42nd Sts? There are even TWO sets of scissor switches between the express tracks. It opens up possibilities for all sorts of train maneuvers. Some of those switches are redundant now, IMHO, I'm sure they got much more usage before the express tracks were completed.
Dear Sir/Madam:
Before the Chrystie Street Connection merged the IND and BMT
divisions, what did the track arrangement of the IND 6th Avenue Line
south of 34th Street-6th Avenue look like? Were there any middle
tracks on the 6th Avenue line at Broadway-Lafayatte Street?
Which tracks did the N, Q RR and T use to terminate at 57th
Street-7th Avenue? Did the express tracks north of 57th Street
exist before the 63rd Street Tunnel opened?
James Li
Before Chrystie Street connection was opened in 1967, there were no 6th Avenue express tracks between 34th Street and West 4th Street. As a matter of fact, those express tracks did not open until about a year after Chrystie did. There were always express tracks at Broadway-LaFayettea. I believe that, prior to Chrystie, they continued east to Second Avenue Station. Frankly, I don't remember whether the Broadway Expresses that terminated at 57th Street turned back right at the station, or turned back just north of it. I don't know how far north the express tracks went prior to 63rd Street, but I suspect not very far.
When Chrystie St. opened in Nov, 1967, the express tracks between W. 4 St and 34 St were used during rush hours. Until the 57th St. terminal opened about 9 mos. later, midday B trains terminated at W. 4 St., and the D and F trains used the local tracks during non-rush hours.
The trains terminating at 57 St station on the Broadway line used crossover switches south of the station. Normally, Brighton trains were spotted on the west (brooklyn-bound) express track, and Sea Beach trains on the east (queens-bound) express track. In fact, the signs over the stairways in the mezzanines said "Downtown" for the stairs leading to the west platform, and "Uptown and Downtown" for the stairs leasding to the east platform.
-- Ed Sachs
Sorry, I think you are wrong. The IND Timeline on this site bears me out - the express tracks between W. 4th Street and 34th Street did not open until 7/1/68, a little less than a year after the Chrystie St connector opened.
Ed is right. The Sixth Avenue Express tracks did open with the Chrystie Street Connection in November but were only used for rush hour service at first, when 57/6 Av opened on July 1,1968 the express tracks saw full time service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I stand corrected. Dave should correct the info on the Timeline.
How did the RR turn on weekends. You had 3 services terminating at 57th at that time: the T and N (expresses), and the RR (local; cut back from 71st)
The RR never terminated at 57th St or went to 71st st. The RR always went to Ditmars Blvd, and in 1987, the renamed RR (R) was switched to 71st. The EE ran along B'way/Queens Blvd (from Whitehall St.) weekdays from 1954, theyear te ND/BMT connecion opened and was replaced by the N from 1976-87. When The T ran on the weekends it did go to 57/7th and shared the terminal with the N. I'm not sure where Brighton line trains(QB?) terminated. An educated guess would be Queensboro Plaza.
The RR certainly did go to 71st St. in the pre-Chrystie St. era. I remember first seeing it in 1965. I thought it was odd that a subway train would be called "RR", which seemed to stand for "railroad". I know it didn't run to Queens Blvd. on weekends, where it terminated then I don't know. Perhaps it ran to Queensboro Plaza on the weekend? The "EE" designation was introduced when Chrystie St. opened. EE trains consisted of reconditioned R-1/9 type cars with plastic seats, while the RR that it replaced had consisted of later fluorescent-lit R-type trains (R-27 and R-30 ?).
Once again, I humbly apologize for some false info.
Chris: I seem to recall a few days ago I said that the Broadway Line express tracks run down to the City Hall lower level,they do but only from Canal Street south. There is no connection from above Canal Street as those tracks go over the bridge. Larry was good enough to remind me of this.
Most of what you said was correct but it would be well to remember that the time period we are speaking of is quite long;even the post Chrystie Street period is already 32 years old. If you look back over the whole history of the routes and services you'll find that there are very few routes that actually stayed the same.
The 14 Stret Line used to be served by two routes north of east New York (#13 and #16) and two routes south of east New York (#14 and #16)
Post Chrystie St we had four routes over the Willy B (JJ,M,QJ,RJ) and five routes on Broadway (EE,N,NX,QB,RR).
If you do refer to a particular service it would be well to reference it to a specific time frame (say 1967-69 or the last five years,etc) and if your not 100% certain say "I believe or I think".
Thats a trick some of us older hands use when our memories are a little bit foggy,it leaves you some wiggle room.
Best wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I have to rely on this website for info about the system before the 70's. If you're right (and you probably are) then this website contains some errors which need to be fixed.
Perhaps you can answer a question that bugs me: Why was there a center, express track built on the G at Bedford/Nostrand? Observations from riding past on a train shows this track decends to a lower level north of the station. I have no clue as to where it goes
I think it had something to do with the South Fourth Street station, and the lines that were to branch from it: check out the IND Second System in the Builing the Subway section of the site.
The middle track at Bedford-Nostrand was put in as part of a planned extension along Lafayette Ave. It would have split into two tracks, which it does now, then at Stanhope St. , it would have turned slightly to the left and joined with the Myrtle-Central Ave. line from S. 4th St., forming a four-track line. This was one of several IND Phase 2 lines which never got past the drawing board.
> If you're right (and you probably are) then this website contains
> some errors which need to be fixed.
Of course it does. We're not professional researchers or historians and don't claim to be. This isn't even anyone's full time job. If you have corrections it's best to send them to me in email or feedback because I don't always pick up on them here. Letting me know the URL of the page in error is helpful as well.
As for this particular error (6th Ave. services before Chrystie), each new post contains a new correction. If someone cares to summarize it then send it along I'd be glad to fix it where it's broken.
-Dave
Considering the wealth of information this website has that is not obtainable anywhere else, Im sure we can all live with a few very minor errors. I for one love this site and visit it more than any other one out there.
In addition to R1-9 cars on the EE, you would also find some R16s set up for the EE.
Chris: This question was a little bit before your time. Prior to the openning of Chrystie Street Line the #2(RR) did indeed terminate at 57 St/7Av M-F 12 mid-7a,7p-12mid and all day Sat and Sun. It only started going to Astoria with the openning of the Chrystie Street Line. The first RR to go to Astoria was in the early morning hours of Sunday Nov 26,1967 which I was on.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So back to my question, how did it terminate there with the N and T? That's probably the only instance of three services terminating at a 2 track terminal. Or were the local stub tracks north of the station connected then?
Scratch that last one. After returning to the index, I saw where you answered this, already.
Chris; The 60 Street Connection to the IND opened in 1955. Service was provided by #1 Brighton Locals until 1/1/60 when #2 Fourth Avenue Locals took over the service until 11/24/67.These were also called RR's after 1962. Effective 11/27/67 the EE Queens-Broadway Local began service between Forest Hills and Whitehall Street. This lasted until 8/76 when the EE was discontined and replaced by the N Broadway Local. This lasted until 5/87 when the Fourth Av trains returned to Forest Hills only now they were called the R train.
Pre-Chrystie St Brighton service was BMT #1(Q) 57- Brighton Bch M-F 6a-7p, BMT#1(QB) Astoria-Coney via bridge all times except M-F 6a-7p, BMT #1 (QT) Astoria-Coney iva tunnel M-F 6a-7p. Some rush hour #1 (QT) put-ins/pull-outs did terminate at Queensboro Plaza.
Thanks for the correct info. Anything pre-1967 is before my time and I have to rely on info at www.nycsubway.org for that kind of stuff.
Eric: On Pre-Chrystie St Saturdays three services terminated at 57 St as you said. I believe that switching was done south of the station with terminating trains using the two express tracks to change ends.
I believe that #4(N) used the ntbd exp while #2(RR) and #3 (T) shared the stbd exp but I can't be 100 % certain on that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Prior to Chrystie Street the Sixth Av Express tracks extended about 140 feet south of the 34 Street platform though the tunnels extended another 260 feet beyond that.
The express tracks started again north of West 4 Street and continued through to 2 Avenue.
It seems as though you have a great interest in the history of the subway system. You might want to consider contacting the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders Association as their "Bulletins" are a goldmine of information about the subway.
Larry,RedBirdR33
As for relaying trains north of 57/7 Av the express tracks were long enough to hold six car trains of B types. An eight car train of B types if laid up here would foul the crossover north of 57 St.
Is it just me or was subway service at one time less crowded and more frequent? I recently started taking the B train from Sunset Park to Manhattan. It's driving me insane, even though the trains are scheduled for arrival 8-10 minutes apart, they show up 15-20 minutes apart and are incredibly overcrowded. Today I not only experienced sexual harrassment from the man standing behind me (crowded trains are an excellent place for lewd types to rub against women) but also was physically threatened by a pregnant lady because i was lodged between 4 people and couldn't move out of her way so that she could disembark the train. This type of rail rage is apparent daily on the B line and it is really affecting me. Many crowding problems would be solved if there were more express service on the B or if the N would go express through lower manhattan allowing people the option of riding either train express from Brooklyn to Midtown. I'm considering a suit against the MTA if I continue to be sexually and physically harmed or harrassed on this line. They really need to do something about overcrowding, slow trains and the spillover affects of these issues, which aren't even specific to this particular line.
Welcome to reality. The published headways are meaningless under actaul daily conditions, although 15 - 20 minutes sounds like there was a specific problem delaying service. As for the behavior of your fellow passengers - get used to it. That is how the lower class behaves today. Who did you think you were going to deal with riding a line that starts in Coney Island, goes thru Bath Beach, Bensonhurst, Boro Park, Sunset Park and the poor end of Park Slope?
As for suing the MTA regarding your disturbing 'rubbing' experience, good luck to you, but what are you going to sue the MTA for - letting lunatics, gropers and droolers on the subway? How can the MTA be held responsible for the unpleasant actions of it's customers?
Now, wait a second. I take exception to your proclaiming of residents of Southwestern Brooklyn as "Lower-class". Who the hell are you to make such a statement? Granted, crowding can make some passengers behave in a less-than-exemplary way, but as a Bath Beach resident (and B train rider), I must say that I'm quite insulted by your statement. Why don't you just take the express bus if you don't want to deal with us low-lifes???
I do use the Express bus to get to and from work, and also use the subway in Manhattan on a daily basis. The subways are filled with lower (economic) class riders. Lower class does not mean 'lowlife', it means working people at the bottom of the middle class, that's all. It's a level of income that generally correlates to a certain kind of poor behavior. The lowlifes don't even have jobs, so you won't see them on rush hour trains. The LIRR is getting worse because of the Queens lower class moving east. The MNRR is the most civiled rail line in terms of passenger behavior because it serves pricy towns in Westchester and Putnam counties.
Hmmmm, seems to me that you think that people with more money act better than those who have less. looks like class bigotry to me.
You know, sometimes you have to realize that reality is not an equal opportunity employer. People on the lower end of the economic ladder are more likely to misbehave. I know I'm going to get shot for saying this, but minorites tend to occupy the lower ends. Minority is more of a term for minority of income, not population.
Sure, income, not race. How stupid do you think people are? I know some very well behaved "minorities" (of both income and race) and some not-so-well behaved middle-upper class white people. Your statement is way to generalized, even if you actually do mean minority of "income" (which I don't believe anyway)
I do know it's generalized. But people on lower ends tend to act in a way that people consider to be lower class. That doesn't mean that there isn't the working class, which are well behaved etc. And of course, you have the annoying rich snobs.
I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but what you're saying sounds like a dig on people of poor backgrounds. While to an extent I agree that an amount of money tends to change one's behavior (though more and more often it's not always for the better), it doesn't make them any more righteous or "civilized"(whatever definition you attach to that term). You'll find that people of poor backgrounds also have strong family units(like everyone else) and work hard for their communities.
You never hear much about people from "pricey areas" cleaning neighborhoods, painting murals or involved in activism unless it's their job or the latest "cause".
Be very careful what you say about other people. I don't live in Putnam County, I don't ride a long-distance commuter train to school and my block isn't surrounded by a fence. Would you call me "lower class"?
[The LIRR is getting worse because of the Queens lower class moving east. The MNRR is the most civiled rail line in terms of passenger behavior because it serves pricy towns in Westchester and Putnam counties.]
I can't quite agree with either generalization. With respect to the LIRR, this is the first time I've heard that the "Queens lower class" is moving into Nassau and Suffolk counties. Housing prices and real estate taxes in both counties are high enough to effectively exclude the lower and not-so-lower classes. There are pockets of poverty in both counties, generally not attributable to recent migration from Queens, but to the best of my knowledge the residents do not commute to NYC on the LIRR (there is some intra-Island commuting, but not in sufficient volume to affect the "character" of the trains). Given the high cost of LIRR tickets, even monthlies, I'd say that anyone commuting to the city is almost by definition middle class. Finally, in my experience the most obnoxious LIRR riders tend to be the upscale, suit-wearing types who commute from Ronkonkoma!
I've commuted on Metro-North from 1994 to 1997, before switching to the LIRR, and I truly can't say that I've noticed any real behavoir differences between the riders. Most people keep to themselves, some socialize, and you have a few schmucks. In any event, by no means all of the communities served by Metro North are upscale, far from it!
So, can I use this statement as NYCTransit comes closer to contract talks. I grew up in Bensonhurst (and only left to buy a house in Staten Island, because I couldn't AFFORD one in Brooklyn) and I still ride the subways all the time -- even when I'm not working on them. I don't think the behvior of any of these people are 'poor'. They are just venting frustration at the nearest available object; if you're appalled by the way they treat each other, you should see the way they treat the people moving them around.
I think this discussion has slightly gotten off subject, but it is relevant that the lower-income the population, the more crowded the trains. I used to take the 4 train from Crown Heights, Brooklyn, which is an incredibly impoverished immigrant neighborhood and experienced crowding far worse than the "B" and at all hours of the day and night. However, I would say with the exception of the high number of homeless campers on that train, the behavior of the riders was far better than what I've experienced on the "B" train. And I'm sure that they are a much lower economic class than the west side of South Brooklyn. What is important to recognize though, is that even though there is a higher ridership on these trains, the city has refused to acknowledge it and alleviate it, and it's most likely yet another form of de-facto segregation we have going on here. It's the same as the public school system in the city.
BTW, I would say a major percentage of subway riders are solidly middle class. I wouldn't misjudge and lump them into "lower class". Myself for instance, I make a good salary and even own a car, but would never opt to deal with the nightmare of rushour traffic to get to work. I am grateful that other middle and upper class folks take the train. We certainly don't need any more livery cabs or yellow cabs on the streets. Plus, the man sexually harrassing me on the train the other day was in a nice tie and Armani glasses.
Also, India is a fine example of a messed up transit system. They keep the poor people off the trains by charging higher costs for a ride. Supposedly they have a very nice subway system there. This at times doesn't sound like a bad idea and is certainly what makes the distinction between city riders and suburban commuters here in NYC ($180/monthlies for LIRR from Suffolk Co.). But we have to appreciate the fact that the subway is a means of transportation available to all and it's riders display a wide spectrum of financial backgrounds. It's vital to work on the subways flaws regardless of how moneyed the neighborhood it runs through is.
[I think this discussion has slightly gotten off subject, but it is relevant that the lower-income the population, the more crowded the trains ... What is important to recognize though, is that even though there is a higher ridership on these trains, the city has refused to acknowledge it and alleviate it, and it's most likely yet another form of de-facto segregation we have going on here. It's the same as the public school system in the city.
BTW, I would say a major percentage of subway riders are solidly middle class. I wouldn't misjudge and lump them into "lower class".]
I'd caution against making any broad generalizations about subway ridership and income. In particular, at least with respect to rush-hour trains, it is not necessarily true that ridership rises as income falls. As has been pointed out here before, the poorest of the city's neighborhoods generate relatively little rush hour traffic for the simple reason that many residents are on welfare or otherwise not participating in the labor force. While this is getting into somewhat touchy terrain, there is a tendency on the part of many people - you may very well not be among them, please don't misunderstand - to assume that largely minority neighborhoods invariably are poor (a notion that the Times takes for granted). Of course, this is by no means always the case. Your (snipped) example of the 4 train from Crown Heights is a good example. Crown Heights may be a minority area, but as far as I know it is not a poor area. Most of its residents are working people and jam onto rush hour trains.
As far as the other end of the economic spectrum is concerned, there might be some dropoff in subway ridership, but only at the extreme end. It was pointed out to me recently that the high-income big shots living on Fifth and Park avenues on the Upper East Side generally use taxis and limousines rather than the subway. While that may be true, I somehow expect that the rich-but-not-filthy-rich are as likely to take the subway, at least during rush hour, as anyone else. I'd sure be interested in knowing whether the residents of Central Park West, as wealthy and big-shotty as their Upper East Side brethern, are more likely to ride the subway simply because they have more convenient service.
I'll offer an observation about CPW residents and the subway - strictly an observation, based as it is on a sample of two families, both in the rich-but-not-always-flaunting-it category, both families consisting of a mother (one an artist, the other a part-time director of a charitable organization), a father (both anesthetists, as it happens), and a daughter in college (both friends of my younger daughter). One family lives right by the northern exit of the 81st street station, the other around 90th street. Both fathers ride the subway on occasion, although never to and from work, as their normal work day begins around 5:30 - 6 AM (first surgery at 7 AM). The artist mother (who lives right by the subway entrance) claims to have never ridden the subway in her life - fear of crime, she says - although she is a native of Manhattan. She will ride the bus, however, but prefers either a cab or her Mercedes. Her daughter rode for the first time and probably only time with my daughter (who doesn't know the system and isn't particularly fond of it either). The other mother and daughter ride regularly - to work, to shop, to JFK via Howard Beach - and find it to be a cost-effective way of getting around. They too have cars but use them primarily when they travel to their Connecticut vacation home. They enjoy people-watching as much as they do the convenience of not having to park their cars.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll add to Anon_e_mouse's observations with a few of my own. My comments are based on observations made during my daily two block walk to the subway or bus stop.
I live just off CPW in the 80's -- that probably puts me into the rich but not filthy rich bracket. I take the subway or bus daily. Most of my side street neighbors do the same, unless they work in the neighborhood and walk. I am probably in the minority among my neighbors in that I use the subway weekends and late night. Most use taxis during that time. If being on an abandoned subway platform scares you, then the three stations in the wealthiest part of the upper west side (72nd, 81st and 86th Streets along CPW) are among the most frightening in the city after 10PM.
Those who actually live on CPW fall into two groups (I'll call them the filthy rich bracket -- FR's -- and the enormously wealthy bracket -- EW's).
The EW's transportation patterns are easy. They are chauffered everywhere. They don't work -- at least not "businessman's hours" -- so the subway is nothing more than a rumbling under their feet.
The FR's are a bit more interesting bunch. Many ride the subway during rush hours, probably because it is the quickest way to get around. But non rush hours are a different story. Having lived there for about 2 years, I can count on my fingers the number of times I've noticed someone going from the subway to a building on CPW either after 8PM or on a weekend.
FR's appear perfectly willing to take the bus at any time of day.
To follow up on one of Peter's original questions, the FR's who live on CPW do make more use of the subway than their east side brethren. When I lived over on the East Side, the FR's living on York and East End Avenues relied almost exclusively on taxi and van pools.
(Filthy Rich more likely to ride the subway on the West Side). Crowding at rush hours is intolerable on the East Side. As you stated, Manhattan FRs don't use the subway off peak they take cabs, just as FRs in the suburbs use commuter rail to get to work but drive elsewhere.
The Second Avenue subway would attract more FRs to the system, especially if all Bronx trains were routed via 2nd Avenue or the Lex Express, and the Lex Local was looped around at 125th St as a Manhattan Only service, as I suggested in prior posts. Crowding on the Lex may even be driving moderately rich people like CTG off the trains, forcing them to spend more to get around.
This is correct. I have operated A trains on CPW after midnight. Everyone on the train is only traveling through to Washington Heights, or to midtown, if I was heading south. I'd barely let the doors hit the pockets and we were on the move again. Ghost town.
If I may refer to Paul Fussell's 1982 book "Class", the people you call FRs could also be called upper middle-class (they do rely on work for most of their income, even though it is a very large income) and the EWs are upper-class (most of their income comes from investments or inheritance; if they work, it's purely for satisfaction). (Fussell has an even higher group, the top-out-of-sights, which would include families like the Rockefellers and the DuPonts.)
I would note that Manhattan may be the only place in the U.S. where buses have a higher status than rapid transit. As for the far East Side, the overcrowding on and long trip to the Lexington Ave. line limit the appeal of subway riding. A Second Avenue line would capture some of this market.
Taxis definitely put a dent in off-peak transit ridership for both buses and subways. Taxis are like private cars in the rest of the nation; most people who can afford them will use them, especially in off-peak hours. Improvements in off-peak headways or the return of trolleys might make a small but significant difference. However, there seems to be an understanding in New York that taxis, limos, and private cars should have unimpeded access everywhere. In other words, it is difficult to get more street space for pedestrians, bus lanes, or light rail.
(The book "class"). I read it also. Ironically, it what he would have called the middle class (ie. not the college-educated upper middle class) in the outer boroughs that is most opposed to the subway, since in their minds driving a car or riding an express bus distinguishes them from the working class, which in this city is mostly non-white/immigrant. Or so I'm told. To a union official, cop, fireman, or teacher, no perk is more desirable that a free parking space, especially in Manhattan.
Fussell's category of the middle-class (below the upper-middles) generally means people who have gone to colleges, although not the high status ones such as those found in the Ivy League. Teachers would be considered part of this "regular" middle-class. Cops and fireman would be in the high working-class, according to his definitions. Fussell says that the term "middle-class" is used rather loosely in the United States, and includes a lot of people who wouldn't be in his more narrow definition.
I think the image of the subway has improved somewhat from the darkest days of the 1970s. It seems that a fairly broad spectrum of people will use the subways. I think the lack of expansion into new areas has made the system less convenient than it could be, especially in the off-peak hours. It will be interesting to see how light rail is received in New Jersey as it is introduced into areas (like Bayonne) that haven't had rail transit in a long time. From what I've heard, Bayonne has become more enthusiastic as construction moves toward completion.
Interesting observations about social class and transit usage. I'm a bit surprised that the Filthy Rich (FR) are willing to ride the subway only during rush hours but will take the buses at any time. If it's social class that they're worried about, one would think that they would be more wary of buses - after all, buses are often percieved as somewhat more downscale than the subway (yes, even in NYC). Or could it be crime fears?
Anyway, today's Post had a gossip item regarding a celebrity and the subway. Seems that this actress named Rene Russo (I never heard of her, but the item seemed to imply that she's quite famous) found her limousine jammed in Times Square traffic when she was on her way to some engagement downtown. So she got out of the limousine and hopped on a downtown 9 train, arriving in time but having been the object of stares while riding the train. My suspicions rose a bit when I read that - would subway riders really have been impressed or surprised enough to gawk? I think not ...
I'd just like to clarify my description of those who will not ride the subway. They are white, grew up in New York City, and high school educated or public university educated -- what the author of that book would call middle class. They feel a need to distinguish themselves from minorities and immigrants. They will pay for express buses, parking, etc. They dream of that free parking space at work.
You find 'em in Staten Island, Dyker Heights, Eastern Queens, Maspeth, and parts of the East Bronx. These are the people who would fight new subways, because they might bring outsiders and ruin one of the few parts of NYC that, in their mind, is still good.
In my view, these folks are irrational. Living the suburban way in NYC is expensive and difficult compared with anyway else. If you aren't going to take advantage of the fact that things are accessible by transit or on foot, you'd be better off in New Jersey of Dutchess County. And, in the end, that's where these folks go. I am amazed at how many of our neighbors have two plus cars, despite the hassle of parking on the street. How could this possible be worth the cost? In general, these are people born and raised in Brooklyn.
We only use our car off peak for travel out of town. Whenever I try to use the car on a weekday to run an errand, I'm struck by just how horrible it is. All newcomers to Brooklyn have just one car, and use it like we do. For the filthy rich, living in Manhattan offers the walk/taxi experience. For the rest of us, living in the city offers the walk/subway and bus experience. If you choose to live here, that's why you live here. If you just happen to be here, perhaps you don't use the subway, but you'd be better off somewhere else.
Interesting observations. One thing that occurred to me is that in addition to the Archie Bunker types, tourists from other parts of the country make up another large group that tends to avoid the subway. Tourists probably have heard all the horror stories and by and large aren't used to mass transit. I'd suspect that foreign tourists are more likely to use the subway because they are more accustomed to transit.
I think that in NYC buses are prefered to subways by the snob element because of their perceived safety.
Most of the FR's I see taking buses from CPW are using the crosstowns (either the 79 or the 86). Often to take their children to their posh private schools on the Upper East Side. Nobody on CPW seems to take the north/south M10.
I wouldn't know Rene Russo if she slapped me in the head.
Rene Russo is mainly known for being in the most recent Lethal Weapons movies and also "In The Line of Fire" with Clint Eastwood. I would classify her as a second-tier star. A few people might recognize her if she were on the street or in the subway, but she wouldn't get the kind of attention that Eastwood or Mel Gibson would get.
Around York and East End Avenues you have pretty good access to the FDR, as opposed to the Lex Av subway. That would explain the popularity of taxis and vans. I used to take taxis to and from there to lower Manhattan, and it was pretty convenient.
You go Ashley for shooting down this idiotic stuff about "low class" men being responsible for harrassment on the trains.
Obnoxious male behavior cuts across class lines. If anything the suits are worse 'cause they know they can get away with it.
And those of you saying "it's a fact of life, deal with it"- That doesn't cut it. Yeah, there's no easy solution to this one, but it is a real problem. I remember what a daily trial the gropers and the stalkers were to my wife when we were living in the city. She got to the point where she would just announce to the whole car "Hey Everbody- see this one over here- HE'S A PERVERT AND HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS HANDS TO HIMSELF!!"
But then you never know if one of them will go psycho and try to kill you or something.
While we're on the subject of obnoxious male behavior on trains- here is one of my pet peeves; it really is astonishing after a while:
Men who, when seated in a crowded car with bench seating, keep their legs wide open, taking up 1 1/2 to 2 people's spaces, and in some cases practically shoving elderly folks off the seats, etc. Look around on a crowded car, and the proportion of men doing this is really astonishing.
Yes, this is small compared to other things, but the predictability of this phenomenon is truly amazing. I guess after a while it just becomes funny, but it says something about our culture.
Thank you thank you thank you!!!! I didn't even want to get started about the spread-eagle seating phenomena of men on the train. These are the same men who won't give up their seats for a pregnant woman (trust me, i've experienced it first hand) or an elderly woman, either. It must be their overly large cajones.
Although it would be ideal too, to scream at the alleged perpetrator or elbow him in the groin, sometimes it just isn't appropriate. Only a woman would truly be able to understand subtle harrassment, and it's awkward to try to point it out loudly, when it could easily be denied. And it is also easy for a man to say that women are making harrassment up, or that men are just as harrassed as women. I am not a woman who likes to bark about sexual harrassment, or the type of woman overly-sensitive about it, for instance, you can tell me a dirty joke and i generally will not be offended. However, there is a tendency for men to disregard a sexual harrassment complaint as a woman just being a nilly or overly feminist or something. It's really obnoxious for a man to view it in this manner, when they could just as easily try to have some empathy.
I am particularly insulted by the post by the man that insisted that he's been flashed by women on the train and that women harrass him by wearing bikinis on the train. I'm sorry, I've never been on that party train, that must've been private fantasy train to the playboy beach or something.
I really appreciate your ability to see things from a female-oriented experience, I'm sure your wife appreciates that too.
As I said, neither my wife nor I have ever noticed or experienced any of the harassing or overtly sexual behavior discussed in this thread in nearly 20 years of subway riding. Ever. Perhaps there is just less sexual tension on the Culver than on other lines.
As for seat hogging, it is a behavior that is typical of teens who ride the train when school is in session -- if they weren't jerks they wouldn't be there. I don't see it otherwise, and haven't seen much of it at all in the past five years (what changed five years ago, hmmm?)
The feminist revolution pretty much killed off chivalry. I would not offer my seat to a woman just as I would not expect a woman to offer her seat to me. But I and others do make allowances for people who have health problems, or are pregnant, or have children. See it all the time. My wife was often offered a seat when she was pregnant. My children are often offered a seat, and if they take an open seat, I am often offered the seat next to them, on the subway or bus.
In fact, once I saw a man offer a seat to a woman who appeared to be pregnant, but was merely fat. Boy, did she let him have it!
Don't make a generalized statement about men that way. Many men take sexual harassment seriousley. And I do remember once when a group of women rode the subway topless. It was to celebrate the new NYS Sureme Court ruling saying women can go out in public topless. Some people had children and were justifiably offended. I would suggest that if a man harasses you again to make a scene. These people need to realize that they can't use a woman's embarassment as a shield.
The R32/38 is designed to fit 7 people across in the long benches, the R40/42 is designed for 6 people. Seldom is this the actual practice.
I used to take the 4 in my high school years from Utica. The train is already crowdied from people geting off the B14, 17 and 46 buses. Then when the 3 rolls in, forget about it. I usually stand at the door because I would get off at Atlantic. There were times when I would come off the train with an arousal. Was I looking for an arousal? No!! But the 4 is so packed before it leaves Utica that you end with somebody up against, holding on or brushing against you. If people would learn to wait for a next train instead of jumping into a crowded then there will be less acts of "sexual harassment." BTW, many of the 4 riders to/from Crown Heights are middle class and not impoverished. Most cases there are perverts that look for that situation to stand behind women and get sexual satisfation. But sometimes you cannot avoid it.........
Take the M and transfer in Manhattan for a train to midtown. There isn't a gun to your head forcing you to ride the B.
Ashley,
I'm sorry for your experiences. I'm sure there are men who would do what was done to you on all the lines. And rudeness abounds throughout. But there is also kindness. I recognize that it is awful to be "manhandled" as you were, but please don't dwell too much about it. Just try to avoid, if possible, any situations you think may produce these results - on any subway line.
As far as crowding, I recollect seeing a posting here in the last four months, I think, by someone who reported on, as I recollect, agendas of some upcoming transit board (I think) meetings. Some items covered changes in bus and train frequencies for different lines, at different times. I know I saw something there about the B frequency being increased so they would run, in and around the peak periods, something like every seven minutes. I think it said this would be in the fall. Now maybe the person who wrote them might see this posting and provide more details. But maybe you could check with the MTA and try to get the information yourself.
IF the frequency is increased, the idea of some express service (I assume you mean betgween Bay Parkway and 36th St.) might have a chance of being implemented. So if you contact the appropriate MTA staff, you could find out how to present your idea, and to whom. Perhaps a letter would be enough. The line was built, fortunately, with a number of express stops so it would be possible, in the peak direction.
Good luck.
Do any of the regular readers have any additional information confirming these frequency changes? Though a previous writer noted that the line seems to have a good location but is elevated (and therefore noisy and an eyesore as other el's are),I don't think there's any chance it would be converted to a subway with a routing that would "average" the B/M and N routes. Any available money should be used to deal with the Manhattan Bridge situation by building a new tunnel connecting to both Broadway and Christies St. in Manhattan. Though it's been around (and run aground) for decades, is there any way (I don't mean by catastrophic failure) to force the MTA to accept responsibility to fund and do the work? I would think, considering the ridership on the Bridge and through the tunnel, that it should rank high on Federal funding priorities compared with projects elsewhere in the US that are getting hefty funding.
Let's get some action going here!!
Mike Rothenberg
(Let's get some action on Manhattan Bridge). An MTA official pointed out that not one pol, even from Brooklyn, has expressed the slightest concern about the future of the bridge and its effect on Brooklyn. Only bureaucrats care, and they are being ignored.
No, it's not just you. I have noticed severe overcrowding conditions not just on the "B", but on all Sixth Avenue Expresses. I transfer to the Sixth Ave. Expresses at West 4th Street from the "A" train and there have been several times that an express would be so crowded that I could not even get on. I have also noticed that the "express ride" between West 4th Street and 34th Street is becoming more and more dreadfully slower by the minute.
As for the harassment, I think that it is disgusting that we live in a time when someone complains about being harassed, they receive the responses such as those by "Chris" and "Subway rider". You are probably a lot stronger than these two because I assure you that if some groped them, they would need a lifetime of therapy.
As far as the perverts, I think your third response hit it on the money. Try to avoid the situation but, if push comes to shove, maybe you need to haul off and chop them where they deserve it. Maybe that will give them something to rub on.
Hey, calm down. I don't condone harassment in anyway. I'm just saying if she wants it to stop she's going to have to take another subway line. The overcrowding problem on the B will not go away for a long, long time.
Unfortunately, I am already about 10 minutes late for work on a daily basis because of the B. My only option in terms of other trains (which make even more stops) would only delay my trip even more, so switching to another train really is not an option. If only the N train ran express through lower Manhattan, rather than making like 12 stops before it reaches midtown, I would have an option. And yes, I have experienced sexual harrasment on nearly every mta train, as have the majority of my female friends and co-workers, so i do not limit this specific train in terms of harrassment. My main point was that the MTA CAN do something about the possibilities of passenger "discomforts" and harrassments and that would be to alleviate the crowded train phenomena of the late 1990s by implementing more express service on all lines.
As for a harrassment suit, I meant that fairly liberally when I wrote it. However, in this day and age lawsuits seem to be the only way to make change in societal issues, however inane they may be. Remember the scalding coffee incident at MacDonald's? Now you can't purchase a cup of coffee from a fast food restaurant that doesn't have a disclaimer on it.
And I think if a survey were done on the female riders of the NYC Subway, there would be astounding results in terms of the degree to which they have been sexually harrassed by male passengers. I've heard some disgusting stories, as I'm sure you all have. This is something that is omnipresent in the system, but is never spoken of. Does this merit it as yet another NY problem that we all have to live with? And again, this could be alleviated several ways, not only by focusing on overcrowding problems, but bringing the same rules that apply in the rest of the world onto the subway.
Unfortunately, I am already about 10 minutes late for work on a daily basis because of the B. My only option in terms of other trains (which make even more stops) would only delay my trip even more, so switching to another train really is not an option. If only the N train ran express through lower Manhattan, rather than making like 12 stops before it reaches midtown, I would have an option. And yes, I have experienced sexual harrasment on nearly every mta train, as have the majority of my female friends and co-workers, so i do not limit this specific train in terms of harrassment. My main point was that the MTA CAN do something about the possibilities of passenger "discomforts" and harrassments and that would be to alleviate the crowded train phenomena of the late 1990s by implementing more express service on all lines.
As for a harrassment suit, I meant that fairly liberally when I wrote it. However, in this day and age lawsuits seem to be the only way to make change in societal issues, however inane they may be. Remember the scalding coffee incident at MacDonald's? Now you can't purchase a cup of coffee from a fast food restaurant that doesn't have a disclaimer on it.
And I think if a survey were done on the female riders of the NYC Subway, there would be astounding results in terms of the degree to which they have been sexually harrassed by male passengers. I've heard some disgusting stories, as I'm sure you all have. This is something that is omnipresent in the system, but is never spoken of. Does this merit it as yet another NY problem that we all have to live with? And again, this could be alleviated several ways, not only by focusing on overcrowding problems, but bringing the same rules that apply in the rest of the world onto the subway.
Unfortunatley the situation on the B line is not entirely the city's fault. IIRC the Manhattan Bridge repair project is controlled by the federal government and is out of the control of the city. Until it's done (perhaps before my grandchildren get married) the situation on every single train that runs through DeKalb Ave. will remain deplorable.
Unfortunatley the situation on the B line is not entirely the city's fault. IIRC the Manhattan Bridge repair project is controlled by the federal government and is out of the control of the city. Until it's done (perhaps before my grandchildren get married) the situation on every single train that runs through DeKalb Ave. will remain deplorable.
How is the Federal Government, not NEw York City, in control of the Manhattan Bridge repair project?
I think it's because the Dep't of Transportation is in charge of the bridge repair project. Anyone here know for sure?
NYC DOT is in charge of the Manhattan Bridge project. The Feds have nothing to do with it. And they aren't paying for it. The East River Bridges are absorbing the city's entire capital budget.
I could have sworn someone told me it was a federal repair job. If the city is in charge why is it going so slow? They seem to be doing work on the WillyB a LOT faster.
(Willie B going faster). They don't say so, but that is because Willie B probably CAN be fixed. With the Manhattan, each administration just hopes for the disaster to occur on some else's watch. Remember the City DOT commissioner who announced the trains would have to be removed from the bridge? He was fired soon afterward, and the issue disappeared from the news.
Maybe the Federal Government (local US Representatives, the 2 US Senators from NY and/or DOT officials) should do an investigation. They should have interest in this if federal money has been spent in the unsuccessful repair work, over the last ?? years, just going down the Manhattan Bridge rathole. They should want to prevent that from continuing indefinitely. Maybe they could be persuaded to advise the City and MTA management to "derail" the current approach and start from scratch: apply for funds to build a new subway tunnel(or tunnels) (highest priority) and perhaps a new auto bridge. Would precast concrete tubes sunk in a trench in the East River make the work cheaper? Is the East River bottom amenable to this type of construction?
How many riders a day use the trains on the bridge? And how many a day go through the Montague St. tunnel? If the numbers are significant, that should help.
Mike Rothenberg
I think the bridge is about 90,000 or something. The tunnel might be something like that also
The Manhattan bridge should just be demolished out right put the subways in a tunnel and a new bridge built from scratch for auto traffic. Eitherway it'll take 15-20 years for anything to be done..
"Unfortunately, I am already about 10 minutes late for work on a daily basis because of the B."
I hate having to say this to someone I don't know, but, if you're 10 minutes late EVERY day, then leave your house 15 minutes earlier. Before you fly off the handle, please keep in mind -- I live in NYC, I work in NYC and on a good day my commute, using mass transit, is 2 hours (each way).
"If only the N train ran express through lower Manhattan, rather than making like 12 stops before it reaches midtown"
If the N ran express, all it would do is wait behind the R local. Might as well be useful and make the stops. When we get back the use of the south side of the Manhattan Bridge, you'll get your N express on B'way (if you're really lucky).
"And I think if a survey were done on the female riders of the NYC Subway, there would be astounding results in terms of the degree to which they have been sexually harrassed by male passengers... Does this merit it as yet another NY problem that we all have to live with? ... but bringing the same rules that apply in the rest of the world onto the subway. "
My apologies for the creeps. However, creeps are everywhere, you can't get rid of them, so, yes, you have to live with them. Now, before I continue with what I'm told are sexist views, a DISCLAIMER -- The following is in NO WAY meant to apply to any given individual, known or unknown to me. These are just generalizations based upon my own experiences.
The reason why a survey of female riders would turn up a large number of sexual harassment incidents is because females tend to have a broader description of what constitutes sexual harassment. Since April, when the weather started getting nicer, I have had 3 or 4 women feel me up (of course, one was a pickpocket, so maybe that don't count), one young lady bare her breasts at me, and of course, been forced to look at hundreds of women 'dressed' (if that is an accurate term) in some of the most revealing outfits: the semi-transparent sundress with no undergarments, the mesh string bikinis that show more than they hide -- you've all seen them so I won't continue. While I don't consider this harassment, there are no doubt, some men who would. However, if I were a woman experiencing these things in reverse, I would probably be screaming for a cop. The point is, its all in the viewpoint: for every woman who is sexually harassed in the the subway, there is a man who is sexually harassed -- you just don't hear about it. As for the rules, the same ones do apply in the subway -- if someone tries to do something to you, scream real loud, smash in his face, have him arrested -- just make sure he did it on purpose or you might find yourself facing the judge for assault; after all, accidental touching of bodies does happen, especially in crowded trains.
As a final word, if you are riding the subway alone after 9:00pm, don't ride in the last car. One time I won't see you do this, won't stop the train to escort you forward to where other people are and that will be the night something will happen to you. In a year and a half, I, ve broken up two attempted rapes in the midnight hours, both in the last car, both with a woman traveling alone, both at risk to myself for her stupidity and never a word of thanks. But late something happen, and I'll bet I get named in the suit.
(Sexual harrassment). Perhaps we are unattractive or unobservant, but I've never had a woman sexually harrass me, or accuse me of sexual harrassment, on the subway, and neither has my wife. This goes back many years, even when we were younger and slimmer. Someone tried to pickpocket my wife once, but she grabbed him and the doors closed, trapping him, and he said "leave me alone lady your crazy" and pointed to her wallet on the ground where she "dropped" it.
As for bare breasts, many of my neighbors have bared their breasts in my presence, but they were nursing at the time. Haven't seen it on the subway. On the other hand, I don't see too many babies no the subway either.
Perhaps there is a "swingers" line that Alex happens to ride on. But the sexual tension is definately low on the boring old Culver.
I want to thank all of you who have sent E-mails or made posts regarding the two old theatres beneath the Jamaica el. I am glad to hear that the Valencia survives as a church. If anyone should learn what became of the old Merrick theatre I hope you will let me know. I suspect that it was probably torn down. In the early 1950's it was a big thing to take your best girl to the movies in Jamaica on a Friday night. I alternated between the Merrick and the Valencia depending on what was showing. It was also an extra couple of rides on the steel cars on the el. One time we got started early enough to catch a late rush hour gate train from Crescent St to 111th St where we changed to the steel cars. The switching operation the gate cars went through at 111th St was a fascinating thing to watch.
Thanks again for all of your responses!
Karl B
Well, I feel terrible having joined the party late.
But now a conductor shall render his veiws on the subject.
Apparently I am the only one here.
TA already punishes severly for wrong side/outside
incidents. All those on probation are summarily fired. No
hearing, no if's, an's or but's. And as a union man. I
agree. Those people just make it harder for all of us
farther on down the line.
In training we are taught that this is the most grievious
error we could ever make. Speeches and videos are
presented. Bulletins issued. Yet nothing makes up for the
lack of inattention.
Harold's 100% right. Training is the answer. I wrote of
this a week or two ago. Only through rigorous
pre-employment screening and intensive and comprehensive
training can this be prevented. TA does nothing of the
sort. Then they try to come up with high tech solutions
that take the man out of the equation. Which suits their ends just fine.
A device that make both members of the crew agree before
the doors can be opened? Just another slow down. I don't
agree on principal. The Conductor's duties have been
whittled away to near nothing as it is. To now compromise
our authority further, and force our final true
responsibility to be shared with the motorman is frankly
humiliating.
Money on a device to ensure that the doors can be only
opened on the correct side? What's wrong with training?
It all fits into the TA's "final solution"
They want us GONE. If a few wrong side/outside incidents
occour, so what. Fuel for their argument, that we are
obsolete. Training is so minimal deliberately. Poorly
trained employees are easily replaced, and earn less
money.
Platforms to station agents, revenue collector jobs
eliminated, trash train jobs to station dept supervisors.
Bugging jobs to car inspectors. Work trains, OPTO, and now
our last bastion, construction flagging, to the
maintainence of way personnel.
Slowly we are being exterminated. And our fellow conductors do so much to help them.
I veiw my career as a conductor as the highly responsible
person in charge of a train that carries thousands. It's a
heavy responsibility. I make light of it sometimes, and
like all of us I can be complacent too. But it comes from
the knowledge and experience I have. I always know which
side the train will stop on. Even if we have crossed over.
Anyone with ears and feet can tell as a train is moving through switches.
I sometimes point in a lazy way. Doesn't mean I'm not
paying attention. Only that I know exactly where I am. And I feel comfortable with the knowledge that I know exactly where my train is and that it's fully berthed. Walk and chew gum?
TA doesen't teach physical characteristics. The RR's do. ONE day, sometimes only ONE TRIP is all a new conductor gets at a new line. I know which platforms are long or short. Which stations have crowds, or only a single stair, meaning crowding at that point.
But what of the rookie? He's thrown to the wolves, fending for himself. Is that safe? Don't always look to blame the crew for these problems. Like Harold said, the blame must lie with management for the lack of training. The Capatin of the ship and such.
Wrong line up's would be prevented without the idiot signs TA hung if P.C. training was provided. On the RR, we had to memorize the lines, speed limits, stations, etc.
Then draw the line with all the interlockings and home signals. If TA did this, then wrong line up's would dramaticaly decrease. But then it would cost more money, god forbid. Did any of you really think that $400 million all came from the MetroCard?
I know most of mine from experience, but again the rookie?
I can and have aided my motorman who was new, with the proper line up information. Heck Iv'e had to draw track maps from memory on occasion.
All conductors should be trained and have the level of knowledge and professionalism that I have. Then the system would see far fewer of these problems. Please note, I'm not trying to boast, only make my point. I humbly submit.
Thank you.
Erik
I can't disagree with any point in your post.
But how much training does a person need to know that their must be a platform visible to open a door?
We are not just looking at the quantity or quality of the training here. Lirr is about 12 months for an engineer and assistant conductors must take their qualifying promotion exam to conductor after one year. Engineers at NJT get 15 months. My point is the one who don't pass the aptitude testing don't get to school car. No Iq..no job. It only takes common sense to work here but it takes Einsteins to work there.
Railroad personnel have to pass tough FRA tests, and it's not a one-shot. They have to requalify every, what?, 3-5 years?
Both Engineers and Conductors are supposed to know every switch, curve, speed restriction and rule on the division on which they work. On the LIRR that means the whole railroad.
This sounds right up a railfan's alley, but I don't know how Mere Mortals do it.
Something I learned in the Army during basic training applies here as well.
The training becomes an exam of it's own. The length and intensity of the curriculum tends to weed out those who aren't inclined to put their best in to their duties. Someone who spends a year of their life studying and memorizing for the grueling final exams tends to take the job seriously and holds value in their achievement. It's unlikely they would tempt fate with something so stupid as keying an automatic, or not paying attention while opening doors.
NOT necessarily-- TWICE while riding NJT there was a door open on the wrong side! One was at newark Penn and they left NY Penn that way! the other, the train overshot the station(fair weather, no leaves)and the door opened to air! I was there both times and secured the door(blocking with outstretchd arms after alerting a crew member the first time. The second time, the crew member saw me block the door and gave me instructions which i obeyed--he told people to walk back to exit, I repeated those words while blocking the door by outstretched arms. he told me to let him know when it was clear to continue and I did give the proper flag for proceed. I got thanks both times!
The first conductor (The head conductor both times) has been letting me ride free whenever he sees me-- even if I going beyond my pass such as to Trenton or between the two Penns. The second thanked me profusely.
I was just doing my job-- a railroad employee is always on duty watching for our passengers saftey--even if we are riding on another railroad.
But it's not JUST having a platform visible, since there are a number of places where you can have a platform visible on both sides of the train, but you had damn well better not open on the short platform side (or before the gap fillers appear (or the middle platform at Columbus Circle (or the downtown plat at Bowling Green uptown (or the south-bound platform when operating south-bound on M track during G.O.s )))) Get the idea. This is why a lot of Conductors will ignore you and your questions while the train is entering the station (and again when observing the platform as the train leaves) -- it's for YOUR safety that my head is hanging out a window being attacked.
Hear hear! There is no substitute for proper training in ANY job situation. When the safety of hundreds, if not thousands, of people is at stake, you had better know your territory. I look at it this way - if you WANT the job, you train yourself ahead of time if you can, i.e. you go to school for it. NYCT no doubt provides a modicum of training for the C/R position, but what of the person who really WANTS the job? For myself - I pound the rails regularly. I stand at the front window and watch. I watch what side the platform is on. I look for GTs and jot down their numbers and locations. I study the map. I memorize the routes, colors, letters, numbers, terminals. I take pictures of the stations (well, that's ANOTHER pastime). I look for landmarks. I make note of curves, turnouts, interlockings. I watch signals. I observe the car types and what line they're on. I make it my business to know things like the difference between an R32 Phase I, R32 Phase II, R32GE and R38. I catalogue unit numbers. I take particular note of equipment moves. I observe the conversations here on this message board. Do I think I would qualify as C/R or T/O? I don't know yet-I haven't taken the test. But I DO know my way around the system. And I'm still learning. Are the new folks motivated? It's hard to tell. Based on what I'm hearing here, some of them are probably NOT. But many of them are and no doubt they enjoy what they do. It all boils down to - do they really want to be the best they can be? Or maybe they don't really give a damn at all.
Motivation is a plus. Knowing the territory going in could be a plus. Knowing the rigors and the ups/downs of the job going in is a BIG plus.
Wayne
"difference between an R32 Phase I, R32 Phase II, R32GE"
OK I'll bite. What are the differences? I can id an R32 vs.an R38, but didn't know of variations on the R32.
AS for what you said about motivation, it is very true. When I first came out as a CR in Dec '97. I was the only person in my class of 40 who actually had any kind of knowledge of the subway. While everyone seemed capable of learning, there were people in schoolcar that wanted to change procedure before they had even experienced being on the road. Since then, at least two people have left - one involuntarily - and others are just biding their time. One woman has joined the Dedicated Announcer program and one guy won the Rail Rodeo Competition, beating out a 3-time winner with 16+ years in title.Personally, I like what I do - some days more than others, but that's any job.
What is the "Dedicated Announcer Program"?
--Mark
A Dedicated annou8ncer works in a tower. They are the ones that make the announcemnts : "A downtown #6 train is approaching Astor Place" and other such announcements.
Is the dedicated announcer a conductor's job? It sounds like fun :-)
Yes it is one of the Jobs Conductors can be assigned to.
Ahhh, so you too can tell people to "stand clear of the moving platform as trains are approaching" every 50 seconds at 14th St and Lex .... :)
--Mark
That one's just a tape loop.
No I am a Train Operator. I don't have to worry about that suff exept kick people off of out of service trains and change signs.
Go ahead Alex, you can pat yourself on the back. You deserve it!
R32 phase I and phase II refer to their GOH (general overhauls). You can tell them apart by looking either side of the doors. There's a strip of metal running the height of each door. If it is beige enameled, it is Phase I; if it is silver steel, it is phase II. The differences are in the air-conditioning and electrical components used during the GOH. Their air-conditioning units are from different manufacturers. I think the interior paint is ever-so-slightly different, too.
R32GE applies to ten R32s overhauled by GE-Buffalo Transit (they did the R38s) as opposed to Morrison-Knudsen Co. (MKCo). These cars, eight of which are in revenue service, are identical to the R38 inside. They have the same GOH components as the R38. Their numbers are 3594-5, 3880-1, 3892-3, 3934-5 (parts cars), 3936-7. You may find them on the "A" and "C" lines. Their air-conditioning is not functional due to a problem with the compressor cradles.
R38 is similar to R32, as you have indicated. When first delivered, they were almost identical inside to the R32 3800 and 3900 series cars. Now that they have been overhauled, the interior differences between R38 and R32 are very striking.
Wayne
Wayne You'll do just fine on the Test. My son is also takeing the test. Did you get anything in the mail yet my son is still waiting.
This Saturday I'm taking the TSS Exam.
The problem isn't the test. It's the time to appointment. I took the C/R test in 1993, and with the help of my Veterans Preference was near the top of the list (high enough to get a listing the Civil Service paper).
I was only called for appointment last year (5 years later).
I have heard nothing yet. I am brushing up on my Fulton Express "A" (R32/R38 style) announcements and connections information. Next time I'm in the shower I'll do the #5 line.
Wayne
I'm a little behind on reading Subtalk but here's a post that caught my eye....it seems that the one place TA does skip is training. I agree with "The Transit Professional formerly known as Mr.R46". How often do we have refresher courses. Virtually unheard of now. The TA expects the Motor Instructors (TSS's) in the field to critique a person twice a year, but not all motor instructors are good teachers, and quite frankly there is not enough time to do a thorough critique in five minutes. Alot of things are passed over. Add to that that some personnel don't give a darn and have no pride in thier job makes for a bad situation worse. I can ramble on about what I don't care for in this area but I won't. I can get long winded.
Am I the only person annoyed by how infrequently the MTA updates the subway map and schedules(they use the same line description for the 2 and 3 and haven't updated the C(no longer goes to the Bronx)or the B(which now does)).
And the January map is still up.
Ugh.
I am interested in NYC schedules - they are some of the busiest in the world, and it is wonderful to see all the detail; but, there are quite a few problems in the current display. But it is wonderful to see the full schedules for the busiest rail system in the USA
I wonder if NYC transit are aware of them which have been this way since May 1st when the new complete schedules were posted. I have found these:
1/9: the northern terminal is shown as 241st instead of 242 st as on the map.
2: the nbound Sunday table is headed 'Northbound Weekday Service' the times appear to be correct.
3: many of the times of the 135-148st shuttle after 2000 are duplicated and out of order in both directions.
4: southbound Sat: times appear only until 1600
A, Manhattan portion: Northbound Sat headed nb 'weekday'; times appear to be corrrect for Saturday.
A, Brooklyn portion: Lefferts nighttime shuttles are either missing, (ie NB Sat about midnight) and shown out of order in both directions.
It is a great pity the Brooklyn schedules do not have a linking Manhattan station to work out travelling times. Try to work out how to get to JFK for example, from the Brooklyn times without referring to Manhattan.
B/C lines: I understand these reverted to pre Feb 1998 routing from late May - refer Subtalk - but schedules do not always reflect this, nor are the maps and opening pages correct. They haven't been changed for months. Yes, the current on-line Map is also incorrect.
B line: nbound timing points show from Coney I to 86th St (rush/ middays) - is this an express stop? Southbound from 86th St to CI.
C: times are in numberical but not TIME order, result AM and PM schedules are mixed together. Weekday timings are from headed from: Chambers/WTC to 135th St' sbound, 86th to Euclid Ave.
Weekend timings are from Canal St to 168th St.
F: the whole of these schedules appear to be those of the D line.
G: nbound w'day: timings stop at 1000am.
Rockaway Shuttle (H): heading says: 8th Ave Express.
M: a bit of a jumble with currently three separate services;
are there any am rush hour services to Bay Parkway? There are reverse PM ones. Possibly they are omitted.
N: Sbound Sat times are shown only until 1300.
Q: times are shown only to Rockefeller Centre instead of /57th21st St.
R: two early arrivals at 95th St about 6.00am have no starting station, and are possibly 59th St - see previous schedules.
A response from NYC transit would be of value.
The M is correct. All AM service coming out of Bay Pkwy makes 1/2 trip to Chambers St., lays up and resumes for the PM rush.
Also, according to the site, the B no longer runs between the Bronx and Coney Island. You'll need to take the C.
Ahem, they reeaally need to update that site of theirs.
the B TRAIN AND THE C TRAIN NEED TO BE UPDATED WITH THE NEW ROUTE AND THE C TRAIN NEW WEEKEND SERVICE THANK YOU
A while ago I wondered whether an all-rail movement between SBK and Bay Ridge LIRR was still possible. I finally got my answer.
ERA NY Division Bulletin for June 99 reports that the first transfer from Coney Shops to ENY Shops took place May 6.
The move of Slant R40s went via SBK, then NY Cross Harbor RR via 2nd Ave, 41st St., 1st Ave to a connection with the the Bay Ridge branch where it was handled by the NY&A to Linden Yard, then onto the Canarsie Line.
[ERA NY Division Bulletin for June 99 reports that the first transfer from Coney Shops to ENY Shops took place May 6.
The move of Slant R40s went via SBK, then NY Cross Harbor RR via 2nd Ave, 41st St., 1st Ave to a connection with the the Bay Ridge branch where it was handled by the NY&A to Linden Yard, then onto the Canarsie Line.]
Were the NYCH's carfloats used, or just its street-level tracks?
From the description, just street tracks.
The New York Cross Harbor street level tracks were only used during this move. This is the only way cars can be transfered to/from CIY to/from ENY.
On Friday, June 4th, one South Brooklyn locomotive tranferred two R-42's # 4814,15, from ENY to CIY, via the same routing. The only difference was New York and Atlantic had a MP15AC waiting for the train at Linden Yard instead of a SW1001.
About how far is it from Broad St. BMT to it's connection to the Montague tunnel?
Its about 3700 feet.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks to all those who answer my last post. I did go to CI Saturday night like I said. When I boarded the 3 @ Penn Av. It seems there was another rail fan along for the ride. He was waiting for thr railfan window which I occupied to Atlantic. (BTW, there is about 50/50 chance of getting a railfan window on the 3.) Switched to the D, my high school line. It went express from PP to Kings Hwy. I couldnt see much because it was dark. Returning from CI, I took the F with my friend. The trip wasnt as long as I expected, switched at Jay St for a Bklyn bound A. R38 came through. We were in the 2nd car which was 4062. Local to ENY. Here my friend took the J and I took the L. The J got there first and waited till the L got in. BTW, replacement is being done to the roof of the elevated complex. The big railfan trip is yet to come, 207-Far Rock. It is coming shortly......
A couple of questions:
1. I notice a couple of large metal boxes at the CI end of Ocean Parkway. What is their significance?
2. On the F, we entered the Bay Pkwy Sta. Along the open part the sign says 22Av-Bay Pkwy, but the windscreen the signs just say Bay Pkwy. What's up with that?
3. No evidence of the shuttle @ Ditmas. I think there is a little stub. Can anybody verify this?
I still think that the G should be extended to Church....
Bay Parkway used to be called 22nd ave. The Culver Shuttle ended at Ditmas. If you'll levae the system and go under the el, look up to the CI bound plat and you'll see th trackway.
On the F, we entered the Bay Pkwy Sta. Along the open part the sign says 22Av-Bay Pkwy, but the windscreen the signs just say Bay Pkwy. What's up with that?
I thought by now all the signs just read "Bay Parkway". Guess not.
There's no 22nd Ave in that area. Bay Pkwy may have once gone by that name.
This is similar to Neptune Ave / Van Sicklen, also on the F. For the longest time, the station had the name "Van Sicklen" because, at one time, the Van Sicklen family owned a great deal of the land near that station. (I don't know who they were). Over time, it was renamed "Neptune Ave / Van Siclen", and more recently, the "Van Sicklen" was dropped.
As for the boxes you describe near Ocean Pkwy, I think it has to do with signal equipment.
--Mark
Bay Parkway from McDonald Ave to the Belt Parkway is indeed the same as 22nd Ave, it occuping the block midway between 23rd and 21st Avenues. It names comes from the fact that it is a multi-lane street (parkway) that goes right to Gravesend Bay - as in if you miss the last turn, you're all wet.
This morning going to work, I was on my usual 8:05 out of Penn Av. I got @ the end of the train. I usually walk to the front of the platform even if a train is there. This was different. Things get weirder. At Nostrand, we usually wait for the 2 and 5 to crossover. But we went straight through. I thought this was going to be a good day. Nope!!! We got to GAP and stayed there for 10 minutes. Then we creep to Bergen. At Bergen, we were told that Atlantic is the last stop. The reason was that there was unauthorized personnel on the track at Times SQ. We got to Atlantic and the lights were blinking on and off. I waited at the station to see if a 2 come in and then run on the 4 line. After 10 minutes, my transit skills came in. I went downstairs and took the M to Broad St. It was a very light train..
1. Can anybody tell me what happened at 42-TS?
2. BTW, Broad St is a very nice station. It reminded me of the Canalon the N.
Before the M came in, there was a R and a N came in. Passengers got off the N and boarded the R. There was an annoucemnt that the N was going first and everybody ran back to the N. Where is that Good Shepherd??:):):):)
Not absolutely certain,but the best bet would be in the tower at DeKalb Ave.
Son and I have plans pass Philly, just found out about street car trips . Need info so we can change
Amtrak reservations. Son enyoys New York subway more than Disney Land. Spent a good week riding system in 1997, we are from Chicago. He logged more New York cars than Chicago even has. WE plan to have pizza July 3 and watch subway trains on the 1 2 3 and 9 lines .Is Sbarro still open at track level
33th or 42nd st.? The listing only has a snail mail address for info on the running of street cars July 3-5 Please e-mail us s we can make plans .
Thanks
Geoff
As far as I know there is no national ERA web site or email contact. All I have is the mail address. Maybe someone has an office phone number for them?
Yes, the Sbarro is still at 34th & 7th Ave (Penn Station) but has been reduced in size due to ADA compliancy construction projects at that station.
ERA's e-mail address is era@juno.com. ERA's phone number is 212-986-4482, but it's only staffed on Monday evenings -- any other time, it's pot luck. There is an answering machine/fax, though.
David
[As far as I know there is no national ERA web site or email contact. All I have is the mail address. Maybe someone has an office phone number for them?
When the brakes are released from a train, there is a discharge of air.
The air pressure in the tanks are suppose to keep the brakes off right? Where is the air discharge comming from?
Air applies the brakes, not the other way around. The exhaust comes from the venting of both brake cylinder air and Straight Air pipe pressures. Brake cylinder does the work, Straight air controls that.
It takes place at the operating unit underneath the car.
The air comes from the brake valve in the operating car and when released, some air vents there as well. The only time all the air will flow through the brake valve is when the electric assist feature is not functioning.
then what makes the the train go into emergency when the brake pipe is
broken? Won't the train just lose it's brakes?
The system is set up that air in the Brake Pipe must be present to release. A rapid loss of BP pressure causes the emergency application. And therefore the inability to release.
However the BP is not the source of air for the brakes themselves, the tanks we refer to as resivoirs are. BP is like SAP merely a control line.
Can anyone give me the email address for the MTA webmaster? I tried the two posted above, and got no good results...
Thanks, Dave
I don't know if these are the two you already have, but try these, from the registration for NYCT.ORG:
Administrative Contact:
Martinez, Alicia (AM1774) amartine@MTAHQ.ORG
212-878-7425 (FAX) 212-878-0150
Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Gagliano, Kenneth (KG809) webmaster@MTA.NYC.NY.US
212-465-2828 (FAX) 212-465-2786
How to go to the 72 and Broadway station from Baychester Avenue and Boston Post Road Bronx in 1932??? What are my options??
In those years remember the logistics were different
we had the 2nd, 3rd 6th and 9th avenue Elevated trains.
Also there were the Boston New York and Westchesr
The New New Haven and Westchester rail roads.
I could go to the White Plaines Road ,IRT Stations at either Gun Hill road or 219 Street, pay .05 cents, would this take me down the 3rd avenue El then across to Broadway? Did both stations have local and express service?
If I wanted to use the NY NH and Boston , which stoped at today's Dyer avenue Station and paid ? 05, 10 cents how would I get to Broadway and 72nd Street?
Phillip: Your route would have been very much similar to todays. You could tkae a #5 train from 219 St or Gun Hill and transfer to a #2 at any point from East Tremont to Grand Concourse to get to 72 St/Bway.
If you took the NYW&B from Dyre you would transfer at 180 St to the #5 and then same as the above. Remember in those days most daytime #2 service terminated at the 180 St-Bronx Park Station on Boston Rd. (Now razed).
The 3 Avenue El had express service in the Bronx from Tremont Av south. These were called 3 Avenue Thru-Expresses.
The White Plains Road Line did not get express service until 1953.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Many thanks Larry,
do you know what the fare was on the
NY NH & Westchester from Dyer ave
.05, .10 cents $ ?
If I took the NYNH & West. RR from Dyer to 180
I could switch at 180, pay an addition 5 cent fare,
As I was now on the irt to take the #5 downtown,
Then switch at E Tremont or 149 GCC for the #2 Broadway
and ride to 72nd st and Broadway.
is that about correct?
The fare on the NYW&B was 5 cents within the city. That was part of the contract with the city, the same as with the IRT and BRT/BMT, and presumably part of what killed it.
From Baychester Ave. and Boston Rd., the Baychester Ave. station on the NYW&B (and on today's Dyre Ave. line) is about one block away, walking east on Baychester Ave. That would be the logical station to get on at, not Dyre Ave. station.
Well, it's about time! Just heard on tonight's news -- after the pathetic Knicks loss :-( -- the approval of 43 for and (I believe) 3 against the rail line.
The claim is that the light rail system should be in operation by 2002 (yeah, like we're gonna see it built THAT fast!)]
Anyhow, the news is a welcome one to all who lamented New York's rail-less airport links.
Well, like the ad says: 'can you, uh.....Yahoooo!' (I can)
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, Sounds like a little wishfull thinking old friend or maybe the announcer got it wrong :-(
The 6/3 Newsday article says:
- 2002 = "... the elevated rail to connect Kennedy's airline terminals ..."
- 2003 = "The Van Wyck link (to Jamaica only)"
I wonder if the Van Wyck route will be driverless (motormanless) like the airport to long term parking piece ?
Mr t__:^)
I can only hope that City Council officials (and the Mayor) who said the LaGuardia line is more important were not just blowing smoke, and Vallone and McCaffery (who opposed) were blowing smoke. If you hear of another meeting, let me know.
I went to Modell's Sporting Goods yesterday -- looking to get a good fluke/flounder fishing rod for my Montauk trip later this month -- when I spied some unsual T-shirts on sale. The shirts had a banner featuring the Brooklyn name a la 'Brooklyn Dodgers' style with that swooshing tail. On the tail were the IRT #3, #4 and #5 line logos and the B, F and D logos on the shirt as well. I picked up a navy blue one with a yellow 'Brooklyn' title. I think the largest size is XXL and are going for 3.99 (I think they're on clearance).
Get them while they're hot, since these T-shirts, unfortunately, are not on sale at the Transit Museum.
Doug aka BMTman
Which Modell's, O Doug-man?
Charles, I saw them at the King's Plaza Shopping Center branch, but I am sure they carry them at all the Modell's stores (there is one across from City Hall, aka Giulianiville, as well as most NYC area shoppng malls).
Oh goody! I'm going to be in the neighborhood Sunday ... looks like it's time for a stopover.
--Mark
Thanks, Doug. I pass by one across from GCT. I will go have a look.
BTW, the Transit Museum store in GCT has t-shirts which have the big colored bullet on the front and the route right below. Something like
F
Queens-Brooklyn
Almost forgot. In yesterday's Daily News they showed someones design for a NYC subway car as the state emblem on the new quarters to come out in 2 years.
Wouldn't everyone here like this?
[ Like to see subway cars on NYC quarters ]
That depends. Which subway car?
Unfortunately, its one quarter per state, and I doubt those in the rest of the state would like to see a subway. I think it would be a good thing to put on a Bronx license plate, however, since there is one design for each county (though I note the irony).
Bronx = IRT subway
Manhattan = skyscraper.
Brooklyn = bridge
Queens = jet plane.
Staten Island = ferry.
I guess for the state, you'd have to say the Erie Canal, since it turned upstate New York into perhaps the richest area in the country for 50 years or so, and turned New York City into the #1 city.
[re designs on license plates
Bronx = IRT subway
Manhattan = skyscraper.
Brooklyn = bridge
Queens = jet plane.
Staten Island = ferry]
How about more realistic designs?
Bronx = welfare office
Manhattan = public money pit, er, hospital
Brooklyn = decaying bridge
Queens = whining NIMBY homeowners
Staten Island = toll booth
I suppose the design has already been chosen for New York, but I could take some stabs.
Statue of Liberty? -- I suppose, but it has too much of a national flavor -- not exclusively New York enough.
Empire State Building? -- been used too much already, and since surpassed in its greatest claim to fame.
Brooklyn Bridge? -- same as above.
World Trade Center? -- perfect in some ways--expresses public overspending on something useless and ugly, but we share the shame with NJ, and putting something on a coin that looks like two cigarette cartons might not get past the Surgeon General.
Mario Cuomo? -- we might be getting warm. Problem is--he might insist on being on the front of the coin.
The Beaver? -- almost perfect! Identified with New York, not exclusively City or State, and might appeal to multiple constituencies, but maybe we shouldn't even go there.
The Beaver? -- almost perfect! Identified with New York, not exclusively City or State, and might appeal to multiple constituencies, but
maybe we shouldn't even go there.
With Hillary Clinton coming to town, perhaps this would be a good idea...since her beaver-hungry husband is bound to come along too. :) -Nick
Well, I don't see how any of this relates to the Beaver, I mean, the kid was always in trouble. How about the state seal, super imposed over a map of NY, or a map of new york, 'excelsior', and the sybols of NYC, Albany, and Buffalo?
-Hank
It looked kind of like an R-68/68A. It had the front and the curved sides, so it wasn't and IRT or R1-40slant, and it had the larger storm door window, so it wasn't a rebuilt 40m/42, and it wasn't the R-110B/143 design either.
But this was only a proposal. It wasn't any final submission.
That was R110B prototype.
-Hank
I haven't ridden the nostalgia train since it was new (the service obviously, not the equipment).
Is this still run? Has anyone ridden it lately? Would you recommend it, especially if you're hauling a kid?
I'm particularly curious as to how personnel qualify to operate the Triplexes. They must be the only lap-brake equipment in passenger service.
Check the Transit Museum website for information. I don't know if there are any scheduled at the present time - I don't think so.
As far as bringing children - is the child in question an enthusiastic subway fan? If so, then bring him/her. If not, chances are the child will be quickly bored and will not have a good time - and will almost certainly make things miserable for you and the other passengers, no matter how angelic they may be otherwise. Also, enthusiastic or not, if the child isn't tall enough to see out a side window without standing on the seat, they present a safety hazard (kneeling on the seat is OK). And the usual issue that affects all of us when railfanning the subway - lack of comfort facilities - goes double or triple for children.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
< As far as bringing children - is the child in question an enthusiastic subway fan? >
The child is question is my soon-to-be-9 year old daughter. She's been transit-tested on CTA cars on the P&W, the Media Line, the MFSE, double-deckers and others and has enjoyed them thoroughly. She actually asks for transit trips, including (sigh) bus rides.
However, a fantrip can be long and tiring and the issue would more of having to withdraw from the trip early than of her acting out.
BTW, I don't see any listing for the transit museum at the NYCT site. Is it closed, or did I just somehow miss the link?
Personally, I have never been very fond of fantrips, although a couple have been really unusual (most unusual I think, was riding an ex-horsecar trailer in D.C.). Obviously, a fantrip is the only way I'll ever ride a Triplex again, at least in this life.
I can't exactly put my finger on my distaste--it's not the fellow riders--I enjoy the company of railfans for chatting and the shared pleasure of the trip. Maybe its because a fantrip doesn't have the same "feel" as regular service. Kind of like seeing a recreation of a battle which shows you what the original looked like, but can't capture the everyday reality of the event.
Does this make sense to anyone else? Does anyone else have preferences between regular service and fantrip experiences?
She's been transit-tested on CTA cars on the P&W, the Media Line, the MFSE, double-deckers and others and has enjoyed them thoroughly. She actually asks for transit trips, including (sigh) bus rides.
I'd say she's qualified! BTW, the Nostalgia Trips are not all that long. They generally start at 11 and wrap up around 3. And an hour of that is the lunch stop (once it was 90 minutes because of a G.O.).
I think you just missed the link to the transit museum. Here it is.
Does anyone else have preferences between regular service and fantrip experiences?
For a lot of us, we never had the opportunity to ride the Triplexes in regular service, so there's nothing to compare it to. However, I will say that it's easier to get the coveted railfan window in regular service than it is on the fantrips. On the other hand, the long non-stop rides are fun, too, and I guess it's the fact that we DON'T stop that kind of takes the "feel" out of the ride, that you've described.
--Mark
Yes, it certainly seems that she would qualify! As Mark has indicated, the Nostalgia Train trips aren't usually all that long - five hours the last time I rode one, including about 90 minutes for lunch. I'm not big on riding them myself, although I will go on occasion; to me the lines are more interesting than the equipment, and I can see them just as well for a buck-fifty (or four shekels for a full day of on-off riding) as I can by shelling out 25 clams for the special. I rode my first one, as much as anything else, because it was the only way I was going to get to ride the line between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Court Street. Also, I enjoy watching the people. If I ever decide to write the Great American Novel, the people I've seen on the subway will be an important part of my research material. Now, a fan trip on a Philadelphia PCC car is another story - I love those! (No offense to the folks who like 8534 [the Peter Witt] - but on the fan trip last month with 8534 and one of the PCCs I stayed on the PCC the entire time.) Again, though, a lot of it was on trackage that isn't currently in service. Those trips tend to be long also, and restroom facilities are even more limited than on the subway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
People watching is one of the great pleasures of riding the rails, just so you don't get someone upset because they think you're staring ;-)
That jogged my memory--I forgot my daughter's absolutely favorite ride so far--on the Lancaster Avenue car from its terminal in Overbrook all the way through the subway to Center City, a visit to the Galleria, then return on the same route.
If she didn't have even a spark of railfan in her (she was 6 or 7 at the time) she probably would have found the ride, with its many stops and crowds, tedious. But she was seated right behind the motorman and soaked up the ride and the people. It didn't hurt any that a fair number of the ladies passing by fussed over her, remarking how adorable she was. I didn't mind, either
Did you go to the Boston Trolley Meet last year and go on the picture window PCC fantrip (3295)? It was followed by centennial LRV 3495.
That was a blast!
--Mark
No, I wasn't able to make that one - wish I had, it sounds like you all had a tremendous time!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think you just missed the link to the transit museum. Here it is.
Got it. They seem to have expanded to other locales--SIRT, Farmingdale... But I don't see any Triplex trips. Maybe they like to do those in cooler weather.
For a lot of us, we never had the opportunity to ride the Triplexes in regular service, so there's nothing to compare it to.
Most of the fan trips I had taken were on current or recently retired equipment--what made the trips special was that they were on unfamiliar trackage or snippets of normally non-revenue trackage. Still, to affirm your point, I wasn't knocked out by the BU fantrip I took in 1960, but I'd probably low crawl to the City to be able to take it now!
I wasn't knocked out by the BU fantrip I took in 1960, but I'd probably low crawl to the City to be able to take it now!
And we ALMOST had one last year (or two years ago). It was killed because of the possibility of asbestos contamination (I *think*). We ended up taking the D-Types on the Broadway (Brooklyn) EL and Canarsie lines to Canarsie. In the rain no less.
I don't see any Triplex trips. Maybe they like to do those in cooler weather.
There was a memorable ride a few years ago in December. I didn't attend that one but it was FRIGID in Rockaway on that day.
Actually, the Triplexes need a decent amount of work. One of them is leaning to its side a considerable amount. There used to be up to 6 trips a year for a while, then it went down to once a quarter, then once a schedule, now none. The trend isn't good, so let's just hope its temporary.
what made the trips special was that they were on unfamiliar trackage or snippets of normally non-revenue trackage.
So, as an example, you'd go for something like riding a train of R-36s from Willets Point Yard to Coney Island, a non-revenue move (anyone at the Transit Museum listening? :) more than riding the D-Types on the West End Line? If I were given that choice, I'm not sure WHAT I'd pick!
--Mark
< Actually, the Triplexes need a decent amount of work. >
Conisder, the Triplexes are older now than the last gate BUs were they were pulled from service, and nearly as old as the Q-types at the end of their runs--and the Qs were heavily rebuilt.
<< what made the trips special was that they were on unfamiliar trackage or snippets of normally non-revenue trackage. >>
< So, as an example, you'd go for something like riding a train of R-36s from Willets Point Yard to Coney Island, a non-revenue move (anyone at the Transit Museum listening? :) more than riding the D-Types on the West End Line? If I were given that choice, I'm not sure WHAT I'd pick! >
No, I should have phrased that "the only thing that made the trips special was that they were on unfamiliar trackage or snippets of normally non-revenue trackage." Mostly this was equipment I could ride in regular service at the time of the trip.
Hey Mark, I think you're at the railfan window of every trip. It's only hard if you're not giving anyone else a chance! :-)
-Dave
Well, when the word goes out that "children get preference", I always thought that I'm young at heart :)
--Mark
Paul: I think I know what you are speaking of. While fantrips are a wonderful thing providing many with their first opportunity to ride a certain piece of equiptment or still others with a chance to renew an acquaintance with an old friend there are of neccesity a special extra-fare service.
There is something authentic about riding a historic piece of equiptment in a regular service at the regular fare. This was done with the IRT Lo-V's on the 42 Street Shuttle back in 1994 or the D Types on the Culver Shuttle back in 1975.
Larry,RedbirdR33
< There is something authentic about riding a historic piece of equiptment in a regular service at the regular fare >
I think you're getting to the heart of the thing, Larry. I loved getting the museum Standards (2390-1-2) when they were running in regular service in their BMT colors after the World's Fair.
Another problem is that, after a while, not only does the "museum piece" start to get an "inauthentic" feel to it, but the ranks of the people who remember what it was really like begin to thin.
Look at Lundy's Restaurant in Brooklyn. I haven't been back, but people who have seem disappointed by the experience. Maybe they can't put their fingers on it, but consider. The original chefs and staff are gone. New personnel trying to recreate the experience have to work from books and descriptions--they haven't learned how to be Lundy's staff from their immediate elders.
I think I learned something about this when we visited the Old Bethpage Restoration with my late Father-in-Law. The young guide, dressed as a farmer, took us into a barn and started describing the equipment.
My father-in-law was an unassuming man, but he grew up on the family farm and used all of the equipment the youngun' was describing, so he politely began to correct him and soon had everyone gathered around him. It wasn't only that his description was more accurate than the guide's, it was more colorful. You could actually picture in your mind what it was like on the farm in the old days.
I guess maybe I'm trying to say that no fantrip can quite capture the thrill of riding a Triplex with a skilled motorman in the glory days who knew just how to bring a million pounds of train down the hill past Avenue H at full speed on the express, then spot it precisely in Newkirk Avenue as gently as through he were parking a limo.
Yes, but all museums are merely recreations of the past. I wasn't alive when the D-types ran. I enjoyed my one Nostalgia Train trip as I imagined the past...
< Yes, but all museums are merely recreations of the past. I wasn't alive when the D-types ran. I enjoyed my one Nostalgia Train trip as I imagined the past... >
Oh, I'm not complaining about fantrips. I'm glad they're available. It sure beats just looking at pictures or drawings. I never got to ride on the Bluebird. How I wish I had the opportunity to ride it on a fantrip, or even walk around inside it at the Transit Museum. I can see what it looked like in 3D. On a fantrip, I could experience the feel of its acceleration, the sounds of its motors, compressors and brakes.
I guess I'm just whining for a time machine...
But if you had a time machine, you could go back and stop (how?) the transit-line abandonments of the past, so that one wouldn't **need** to go to a museum to see what it was like to ride the 3rd Avenue elevated in New York or the old North Shore from Chicago to Milwaukee. (^:
I never got to ride on the Bluebird. How I wish I had the opportunity to ride it on a fantrip, or even walk around inside it
at the Transit Museum.
The Railway Preservation Corporation is selling O-scale models of the BlueBird. They are VERY NICELY DONE, and they are also EXPENSIVE. I saw them at the East Penn show last month.
More info can be obtained from Allied Transit Services, 807 Remsen Ave, Brooklyn NY 11236 (I think that's the zip code). I'm not affiliated with RPC so I can't tell you much about the model (cost, availability, shipping, etc), but it has a fully completed interior.
That's about as close to BlueBird in 3D as I'm going to get :)
--Mark
Aren't we all begging for a time machine? But someday I'd like to write a NYC transit story, which would be close enough for me. I'm something of a writer. But I could never think of a good idea for it.
Last October when I attended NY Days at Branford (Shoreline) I particularily enjoyed the R-17 trip late in the day because it was full, including folks hanging off the straps. Except for the trolley pole it brought me back in time.
Mr t__:^)
Asst. Gen. Superintendent Mike Hanna (ret) is in charge of all museum equipment. He has a select group of old timer motormen who ran the stuff in regular or at least work train service. He calls upon them for moving those cars in yards or on fan trips. Every now and then he'll qualify a younger man whom he trusts.
You know, if we organized and made some sort of outcry, we might be able to convince them to have more fantrips.
Wouldn't you think that the NY Division of the ERA has been trying to do this sort of thing?
--Mark
I haven't heard about it. Which means it needs to reach more people. I've never attended an ERA meeting.
There's one particular T/O named Tony (don't know his last name) who usually operates the D-types. He does a good job of running the train.
--Mark
We had an old salt (a gentleman of maybe 55-60 years of age) operating the D-type last October 18. He was a consummate pro, it was as if he had been doing this all of his life. And he was smiling every inch of the way.
Wayne
I know I would have worn a silly grin the whole time had I been there. I'll bet a lot of other people were.
BTW, I think we covered this once before, but what sort of braking sounds do the Triplexes give off? Are they closer to that of the R-1/9s or BMT standards?
Application sounded to me pretty much like the Standards.
Release is a two part sound, not quite like any other equipment I've ever heard.
As I recall it, the first part sounds like the Standards. the second part is a "broader(?)" sound, louder and more airy.
I don't know if that describes it well--hopefully we'll have a chance to hear it again.
Steve B,
The D-types braking system was(is)identical to the R9s. Not only do they sound the same, when I questioned Don Harold about it he confirmed.
Some other tidbits: towards the end of their service lives some of the R9s were fitted with R38 compressors! I remember being at Canarsie yard and having to do a double take every time I heard those compressors kick in.
Also: when the TA bought those surplus SIRT cars in the 1950s they figured no problem, we'll just MU them with the ABs, since they look so much alike they should be able to MU. WRONG!!!!!! The SIRT cars did not have AB type brakes, they had brakes identical to the D-types and R9s!
MIke H
Id like to have seen an R-9 with an R-38 compressor as they would need a separate MG set too.
SIRT car couplers were also electrically incompatible with Standards -- H2C instead of H2A.
I already knew the SIRT cars could not m. u. with the BMT standards. Could the R-1/9s m. u. with the Triplexes, at least theoretically?
I would have done a double take as well if I had heard one of those R-9s with an R-38 compressor. Those were fast compressors, even more so than the ones on the R-10s.
I rode the all day Lo-V trip for all 3 of the 3 years it has run and we have had the same nice conductor each year- wearing the same uniform type (does not look like current uniform)
Anthony has the SBK motorman's job M-S AM's. Does that tell you his seniority/age?
Yesterday for me, transit wise, was horrid. First, I was late for work when some genius decided to flee the police by running onto the tracks at Times Square. This resulted in a power-off condition on the 7th Ave line from 50st to Christopher St (according to conductor's radio) lasting nearly 1/2 an hour; this was extended, because during the delay, persons decided to continue their commute by exiting the trains and walking the tracks to their stations. We were in the 23st Station.
In the evening, having stayed late at work to make up for the lost time in the AM, I left the Battery for Shea Stadium at 6PM. Lo and behold, the Lexington is shut down due to a passenger injury. So I wind up on the 7th Ave line again (Rector St) and cross at Chambers to a 5 train. It's 6:20 when I arrive at Times Square, knowing the ride to shea on an express takes just over 20 mins, I've got plenty of time. WRONG! A train is down at Queensboro Plaza, and I was stuck at Times Square for 20 minutes. There was a full train on track 1, a local, and a train arriving on track 2. My girlfreind, who was meeting me at the stadium, was stuck at Courthouse Sq for 45 mins (she was ahead of me) there were a few unintelligable announcements made at TSQ, but at 6:45, the train on 1 left. I was already on the train on 2, and we left a few minutes later. The first car had no A/C, and in fact, the conductors cab was open, and the heater switches were in the on position. I rode between the first and second cars all the way to Shea Stadium. The trip home was uneventful, other than my 1 train being slow.
Amind all this, a diamond in the rough. The conductor of the downtown 1 train I was stuck on in the morning, #89388, if anyone knows him, made announcements every time he heard an update on the radio, and basically repeated everything verbatim, thus keeping the passengers (those who remained on the train) informed of what was going on, kept his manners (and wit) while passengers were asking questions rudely; and even repeated himself to people standing around him every time he was asked the same question (when will we be moving again?) I helped a few people out with alternate directions, and I firmly believe the station agent was fed up, because she started screaming at people. Even with the constant, very clear announcements over the station PA and the SA telling every person at the booth of the delay, people STILL rushed through the turnstiles to board the dead train.
-Hank
By the way the passenger injury was a man under, that is why Lex delays lasted until 6:45 PM, an almost one hour delay.
Don't you love it when people get upset?
Thanks to our new fleet of M-4 cars, breakdowns and delays have become part of the routine for any MFL rider. I often find myself waiting(almost always in the tunnel) up to 10 minutes because a train at 15th can't get it's doors closed(the usual complaint) or from signal problems("But the light is green!" is the usual complaint, of course if they'd look out the window to their immediate right, they'd see a FULL RED SIGNAL- I would assume they'd never heard of emergency trippers either).
Never hear of people on the tracks unless something big was going on(there was a man on the tracks at City Hall during April's Mumia Abu-Jamal rally and someone was hit by a train at the same station during the Million Woman March).
At least in New York there is somewhat of a rail alternative depending where you are, but with our mere El, subway and 5 trolleys, if your train or car isn't running, all you've got is the bus, and I wouldn't wish that on anybody during rush hours:)
Yesterday morning was no picnic on the LIRR. I got to Medford station a little after 6:30, which is plenty of time to get the 6:41 train to Ronkonkoma and thence to Penn Station. 6:41 comes and goes, no train. Absent trains seem to be a relatively common Monday morning phenomenon on the Greenport line. Do the trains take a long weekend on the North Fork??? Anyway, I waited at Medford until just before 7, then went to Patchogue to catch the 7:16 express out of Montauk ... which showed up 25 minutes late and standing-room-only.
Murphy's Law to a T. It sounds as if it was one of those days you wish you could have just stayed home.
Hey, at least the Mets won!
exactly - an awful ending to an awful day
Another jumper in fron of the L train today. I immediately took the 6 to Bway lafayette for the F to Essex fot the shuttle bus across to the M. It seemed to take forever, but I made it home only 15 minutes late somehow. My wife wasn't as lucky. The announcemets made it seem as if the L was running in parts and there was no mention of a jumper, so she winds up taking the A to W4 to the F, to 14th, and then has to get back on the F for the A To Bwy Jct, only to find that she has to take the J to the M. It took her an hour longer than usual.
The communicatins is terrible in these situations. It's all rumor and hearsay. What are all those communications systems they've been [disrupting service] putting in the past 2 decades for?
In my years riding & working on the subways, towers and Control Center do a poor job in telling the crews what is going on during major interruptions. A train may be out of a base stations transmission or reception area so they may hear nothing or only one side of a conversation. Worse still, many times we hear more than one person from Control Center talking over one another at the same time. How many times at W.4th or DeKalb or other major junctions, the dispatcher will tell a crew they are being rerouted to another line and don't tell us why so we can tell the passengers why. Is that D being rerouted over Fourth Ave. to provide service due to a delay on the B or N, or is there a blockage on the Brighton Line? And they will just say "Fourth Ave." When you get to Pacific, you don't know if you are going Sea Beach or West End since Dekalb lets Murphy Tower (36 St.) make that decision. Just causes more passenger confusion and grief for the crews from the passengers. Same at W4th if a B/D/Q gets rerouted over the F line. They simply say :"Take the lineup" and don't ansewer the pertinent questions.
You say "There was no mention of a jumper." The TA does not want the crews to say things to passengers which may alarm them.. Things like bomb scare/suspicious package, passenger under train, natural gas smell/leak and the like are supposed to be addressed as "Emergency Situation" or "Police Investigation", or "Sick/injured customer."
Same with stations- we might actually know what happens but we must use words like "police Action", "sick customer", etc. In all booths we have a scanner which if someone did not unplug it and cvause loss of programmed frequencies, allows us to listen to police frequencies, fire department in some booths, and control center (IRT or B division depending on the booth). The control center might say something like this : "Attention train crews. Please inform your customers due to a sick customer at South Ferry we are short turning Southbound #1 trains at rector Street. We expect this to last until 1645 hours. Please inform your customers." We would then write on our white board in the booth that there is no number 1 from Rector to South Ferry due to a sick customer at South Ferry and issue block tickets (and hope the customers dont scream too loud!) During major disruptiosn police usually happen to be there and will assist in keeping order. If the customers get too rowdy we can call for police presence and I have heard on the scanner for police to respond to a station due to crwod condition.(I have been lucky and have not had to call for police to keep order. In the three times I have had a disruption I have cleared the station and kept order-once being outside of the booth( and yes, the superintendent did thank me for quick thinking and for maintaining order. My station was the calmest station on the entire Brooklyn IRT and Atlantic Avenue was near riot status with police to keep order. And that was before I was even on duty-my hours were changed to put me on duty and then the supervisor also thanked me.)
Those Scanners do come in handy I carry my own. One day Control Center told be to stop and Stay at 137 Street and not teling us why so I hit the Bronx Transit Police Button and found out there was someone wanted in a Robbery and boarded my train at 86 Street. Also its good to hear the real reason on delays instead of depending on Control Center. One scarry thing is there are lots of times Contol Center and the Police don't have there facts strait. Once there was a Fight on a Early Sunday Morning on a Uptown No.4 at 14 Street. The Police Dispach came over saying there was a Dispute on a Uptown IRT train at 14 St and 7 AVE then 5 Mintues later corrected themselfs that it was a Uptown No.4 Holding in the station at 14 St. Union Sqaure with a dispute on board. Total response time was 15 Minutes. I was beside that train at 14 Street. The Cops were on the seen as I pulled into 96 Street.
But I did hear about the jumper, from the police who were blocking the stairway to the L platform. That way I knew to avoid the line altogether. But saying something like "sick passenger" gives the impression that it is a delay that will be cleared up more quickly. People will be more likely to try and wait, or pick up the line at another station.
So it's area command centers that pass information down to another. No wonder the story changes. As I said, with all the new communications systems they've been putting in, there should be some way for officials at the scene to send messages directly to all train amd station crews and command centers.
And what I always wished they could do is take Peter's large track maps, put them together into a system wide electronic board, with the tracks made out of LED's, which would show the location of every train on the system. Green would be regular revenue trains, yellow, work equipment (except for the money train), and flashing red would be
stalled trains. Then you could right away see what was running where, and find the best alternative route.
Eric, check out http://sfmunicentral.com/ this url has a real time display of the downtown segment of the San Francisco Muni Metro Subway/Streetcar lines. While its not much it is useful--the display exists on one platform at the main station and is planned to be replicated at other stations.
That was pretty nice (though I had to use the non-Java version which looked very blurry)
Thanks alot.
"The first car had no A/C, and in fact, the conductors cab was open,
and the heater switches were in the on position. I rode between the first and second cars all the way to Shea Stadium."
The heater switches control ALL air comfort systems on the redbirds. Remember that AC was a retro-fit and was wired into the same control circuits. On really hot days on really crowded trains, the AC could be running perfectly and you'll never feel it, especially on a 7 that keeps opening its doors to the outside. If those switches had been off, things would have been noticeably different -- it would have been worse.
Having been aboard that car, I don't see how it could have been worse. The blowers were not doing anything, all the windows and the storm door at the #2 end was open.
-Hank
When I think about all the subway truncations, to me, no other line has been shafted like the 'G'. Now of course since it doesn't go to Manhattan it's not going to get as much "respect" as all the other lines, but with it's being cut from 179th, Church Avenue and pretty soon from Queens Boulevard altogether, how much good can this line do? Would it make a difference in reducing crowding or using capacity? Is it that important?
I personally don't know why it was really built.
It's riders have 0 political clout, the stations are in disrepair, and they suffer the indignation of OPTO.
I believe the TA views the line merely as an alternate route for F trains to Brooklyn whenever there is trouble on the 53rd St line.
< I personally don't know why [the G Line] was really built. >
Lines approximately along at least part of its route were seriously proposed at least as early as 1908. I think the greater question is why the City built it as a Queens to Brooklyn Line rather a Manhattan Loop (as the BRT/BMT wanted), which might have been more viable.
I think it shows what happens when lines are designed by bureaucrats spending the teaxpayers' money.
When the original planning was done for the IRT/BRT Queensboro Plaza Station it included provision for and construction of trackage for a proposed "Crosstown" line which it was assumed would be run by the BRT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I believe that the BRT 'Crosstown' line was supposed to connect to the Franklin shuttle at Franklin and Fulton, providing through service between Queensboro Plaza and Coney Island.
-- Ed Sachs
There were different plans over the years incorporating at least some of the routing of the G Line.
A BRT proposal released in 1911 would have had the Crosstown Line connect the Queensborough and WIlliamsburgh Bridges.
Another would have formed a loop of the Williamsburgh Bridge and Montague Street tunnel. One proposal adopted by the Rapid Transit Commissioners during the "aughts" would have had a track connection with the proposed 14th Street Line.
I seem to recall hearing of a proposal that would have connected directly to the Franklin Shuttle, but can't remember where, just now.
Bottom Line to this discussion. All the proposals I know of had Manhattan service, except what the City actually built. Maybe there's a a message there...
Actually, it would still be possible to route the G via the Rutgers Street tunnel and making it, probably, a Sixth Avenue local. Going to Smith-9th Street doesn't seem to have much value.
(G via Rutgers tunnel) Unfortunately, the tracks do not allow such a routing. The G can go only one way -- to Smith/9th -- and cannot switch to any of the other tracks at Hoyt.
I didn't know that. I was going to say that perhaps a construction project should be done to change that situation, but that would be so low on the priority list that it wouldn't even be worth putting on the list.
Yet, strangely enough, there is a proposal in the Lower Manhattan Access study to extend the G to a new LIRR transfer station in Sunnyside and then build a connection between the G and the Williamsburg Bridge tracks. (This would give another way into lower Manhattan.) How would this be done? Nobody knows, it's just a concept. But somebody thought of it.
The only explanation I have for the G is that lots of people used to work in factories in Long Island City and on the Brooklyn Waterfront, and went to Coney Island for recreation. The G serves those areas, directly or by transfer. Back then, people used the subway to go everywhere. Now, it primarily serves Manhattan business districts, so a trains that doesn't go through Manhattan seems to make no sense.
The G is an underutilized asset. A couple of connections (to the 63rd St tunnel?) that allowed the G to run in a loop would increase ridership, increase development in the areas it serves, and provide an alternative if the Willie B is ever closed to trains.
I had a though about converting the G line to IRT standards and connecting it into the #7 line between Greenpoint and Vernon-Jackson Ave. The flushing line north of QB Plaza could be connected to the 60th street/B'way line. It probably would require too much expense to ever happen.
(Run G on #7) The Flushing line is at capacity, so there is no room. The only thing that works is to take advantage of excess capacity -- in the 63rd St tunnel, Rutgers tunnel, and 6th Ave local.
The idea was to eliminate the 7 and replace it from VJ Blvd to Times square with trains coming off the present day G line. The Flushing line could be connected to the N/R line.
[ People using G to get from LIC to Coney Island ]
But the GG didn't connect to a Coney Island Line from its opening until 1954. IND riders who wanted to go Coney Island typically changed at 34th-6th or took the A train to Franklin Avenue and a Brighton-Franklin Express to Coney Island.
I don't think the issue is why the G route was built--it was planned in one form or the otehr from the beginning of the century--it is that it was built without a Manhattan connection.
I've posted before on this. It would be difficult to squeeze in crossover switches at the Queens-bound end at Hoyt-Schermerhorn between the G tracks and the A/C tracks. The G tracks start to duck dowm immediately after leaving the station, and trade places with the Manhattan/Court St.-bound Fulton tracks. It would be impossible to do this at the other end of Hoyt-Schermerhorn because the tracks diverge every which way.
Keep in mind that there were other crosstown IND lines planned, and that the G line was the only one which was actually built.
If anything to get an increase for the G line, it has to have some purpose. As someone said the trins these days are now serving for the Manhattan district. The only people who benifit from the G are the Greenpoint/ Willamsburg riders that want to go to Queens Plaza instead of the horrible B61 route (mind that mentioning busses) also for others who live within the area of the G line or an alternative for the F because of its long delays at 53 St other than that there are problems. If I had to look at the route today. it can be taken advantage as a crosstown if the service was better planed out (ex terminating at Church and Kings Hwy during rush hours an drebuilding the lower part of Bergen St) and as many people here have mention find a way to connect it to the 63 ST line and head towards Manhattan terminating at possible 34 St/ Bway. I hate what the MTA has let the G train to be - a precious wreck!!
I do not understand why subways/stations are hot in the summer (relative to the above ground temperature). It should be cooler, since it is underground. It is not the lights, as flourescents (sp.?) burn cool. It is not the mass of humanity, because even empty stations are hot.
Could it be the third rail generating heat?
Help me, I am losing sleep!
The subways are hot mainly because the trains are air-conditioned, and the heat extracted from the air on the trains is dumped into the subway tunnels.
Here in Chicago, the subways are somewhat cooler because each track is in a separate tunnel and the trains push the air along like a piston. Thus, there is a breeze in the stations. In New York, on the other hand, many (all?) lines are in a single tunnel, and there's no piston effect.
Yep, John has hit the nail on the head, here. The air-conditioning units on the trains generate heat -- just like a conventional home-window or central cooling system. However, in the subway situation it is the riding public waiting for a train who have to grin and bear it until they're able to board one.
Doug "the sweltering" BMTman
The AC is not the only thing making heat. The electric motors, controlers, dynamic braking etc. all create heat OK in the winter in the subway but a bit warm in the summer
Deeper stations are cooler since the earth is cooler and heat rises
The wind in the F line tunnels is pretty strong too I think stronger than what you feel in the red line tunnels I have not ridden the blue for a bit though John. I will take your word for it
That's the 53rd St. tunnel. Yes, you can feel quite a draft at Lexington Ave. from an approaching Manhattan-bound E or F train.
I remember getting a tremendous draft when entering the subway from the Museum of Natural History if an uptown express happened to be rocketing past at that moment.
Also, the tunnels of the early IRT lines are lined with tar, which was used as a water repellant. Unfortunately, it also has the side effect of trapping the heat generated in the tunnels themselves.
--Mark
What I noticed when I was in New York-
Many stations are directly below the street. With little ventilation other than the moving trains, I suppose that contributes. Though I didn't find the stations very hot at all( with the exception of Times Square- all five stations).
There are a variety of contributing (and mitigating) factors affecting the temperature of the tunnels and stations. Heat is generated by lighting, as you noted (even flourescents put off heat, just not as much as incandescent), people, and most importantly by the trains themselves. Traction motors put off trememdous amounts of heat, dynamic braking dissipates energy as heat, and even more heat is generated by the a/c units under the cars. Stale, non-moving air also gives the impression of being hotter than it really is. Conversly, when a train passes through a station, pushing air in front of it, a cooling effect is generated. This is most noticeable at the first stations on either side of any of the East River tunnels; the air from under the river is cooler anyway, plus the tunnels have generally closer clearances than the under-the-street tunnels, enhancing the blower effect.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I noticed in that in Boston, the tunnels and stations got noticeably warmer as the cars got more complex. Heavier auxiliary loads cause the MG or Static Converter to dissapate more heat also along with the equipment itself. The Second Law of Thermodynamics governs here: There is no such thing as efficiency when it comes to heat (entrophy). To cool the carbody (and the grids), you dump more heat into the environment than you take out of the car.
Gerry
In Toronto, stations get hot, again for the same reasons as New York: air conditioning units, etc. on the trains dumping hot air into the tunnels and hot air being pushed in from outside sections. Some of the deeper stations, especially on the Yonge line way uptown are kept cooler due to their depth and the tracks are housed in separate round tunnels, rather than the cut and cover method used elsewhere, so the resulting "breeze" keeps them cooler.
But if you want hot subway stations, visit Montréal. There the trains, which have no air conditioning, run on rubber tires! Imagine the amount of heat generated by them! Even in winter, you rarely need a coat in the métro. In the summer, the trains, which have only fans circulating air, are like an oven and because there is only a single tunnel with both tracks, little air circulation is pushed through the system. No outside air enters since the whole system, including the maintenance yards are underground.
Thanks for reminding me - I had forgotten that the Montréal cars have no a/c. Guess I'll plan that trip for the cooler months!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Williamsburg Bridge project is going along quite ahead of planing. Because of this, the IND/BMT lines will be getting a new schedule in September, earlier than expected.
We over at the Union got the work program books to conference with the TA, last week or so.
Well, lo and behold! I predicted this, let the record show that Erik was right:
WEEKEND A EXPRESS SERVICE IN BROOKLYN IS TERMINATED.
Even before the bridge closure, that express service was warranted. The ridership is there.
Oh, but that's not all, E and F service also gets cut to unbelievable levels. The only line that keeps ANY of it's service improvements is the L. Even that was cut somewhat.
As I have been saying all along, the TA believes the ridership increases are a fluke, and will return to the levels we saw in the late 1980's sooner or later. This is why they flat out refuse to incease service any more than is absolutely necessary. (as they dictate)
It only shows their utter contempt for the riding public. Larry Reuter LIED. As he rolls around town in his chauffer driven car to his TA paid for Town House, he's laughing at you and me.
Outrage, is the only word that comes to mind, as these cuts are indefensible. As in the past, public outcry will change nothing, the Transit dictators answer to NO ONE! Bend over every one, here comes another demonstration of the TA's love.
Trust no one;)
Actually, Erik, I believe that if we check the archives, I said it before you did. I was 'corrected' by the friend o our friend from Operations Planning.
What wrong with the new diesel coaches. The doors would sometimes not
close or open. Why? Computer problems? Or the crew just don't know how to proceed?
A source told me recently that part of the problem is crew experience.
It would be reassuring to hear officialy or un-officially from someone at the LIRR what progress they are making in quantity of trainsets that are in regular service.
(Most of have seen the posts of dbl decker sightings on the various lines, but how many of the avail. sets are in service vs. in the yard due either to lack of qualified crews or equip. failure ... we wouldn't even need to know why, just the qty would show progress)
Mr t__:^)
James: I responded to both your e-mail but they were returned to me as undeliverable because your address had permanent fatal errors.(Whatever that means.) Please send me another e-mail and include your mailing address and I can send you what you asked for.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I was at Roosevelt Ave this evening waiting for a Forest Hills-bound local. On the Manhattan-bound express track- an R train(R-46's) arrived and the side signs displayed "NYCTA" and then "METRONORTH RR." Why is "METRONORTH RR" even stored in the signs?
Probably in case there is a diversion on the railroad, and they use the subway to get the people to Manhattan (like if the service can't run below the north Bronx, and people would be bused to 205th or 207th, and special trains would pick them up and run nonstop to Penn station. There's also "LONG ISLAND RR" on the signs too.
Uh oh! That was me last night! I was trying to remember the code for SKIP-STOP. I kept fumbling trying to recall. First I had LIRR, then NYCTA. Finnally I got it right.
I need some way to compensate for the TA's lack of platform Conductors!
The reason the sign code's there in case we have to provide a supplementry service because of a disruption in either RR's operations.
Erik, What's the penalty for displaying unauthorized messages? Mr. Spivey would not be pleased!!!
Eric is a hell of a guy and conductor. Spivey will see to it that Eric gets his commendation of 5 lashes A.S.A.P.
What it does is screw up the data on the reports that the TA looks at.
Every month I have to deal with all those folks that boarded a bus "Not In Service" and went to "Garage" :-(
I've never seen any guidelines for displaying messages other than those listed on the wall. There is a bulletin for when there are service re-routings, it lists the different codes. Problem is none of the dispatchers bother to use them. SO if I occasionaly run with a different one programed because it fits what our operations are, that's too bad for Spivey, Wynter, Mojica et al.
This week, and for quite some time now, Queens has been running all kinds of service disruptions for track work. We run express as an R from Forest Hills to Queens Plaza. To help ease the inevitable confusion, I program either EXPRESS, or SKIP-STOP. I make long and detailed announcements with the directions to the bypassed stations too, but it never fully compensates.
When we had Luminator compile the list of messages, O & P suggested over 1,000 possible routes and variations. My current list has 1,042 codes including two we use for testing purposes during inspection. Incidently, the software for writing messages is DOS based and quite simple to use. I don't believe that O & P has a copy, either :)
Incidently, the software for writing messages is DOS based and quite simple to use.
Wonder if it's Y2K compliant or if we'll see some new messages come January 1st ... :)
--Mark
The Luminator Software is not date dependent so I suppose Y2K will pass uneventfully for the R-44s and R-46s.
Incidently, there are 8 cars with messages welcoming, then Governor, mario Cuomo and heralding the Queens Blvd. Super Express. The messages were added to 4 Sign Control Units for a special train that was to be used for politicians to see progress on the 63rd St. line. (There is a pix of the R-46 with a 'prop' end sign in the R-46 roster section). However, with swapping of parts so prevalent, it's doubtful that we'll ever track down those oddball memory cards witht e extra messages. Of course, if Erik keeps entering unauthorized codes, he's liable to find them for me....
Is 9998 one of the test codes?
Yes it is!!!!
That test code performs several functions.
First, it allows each pixcel to be displayed or not displayed so that defective characters cane seen and replaced. That can be readily seen when the messages are displayed.
Second, , since each of the components (the ODK and each of the 4 signs per pair) has a discrete address, the test code causes each device to display it's code. The ODK must be addressed 0001 while the 4 signs are addressed 0002 through 0005. No two devices may have the same code as another device in the chain.
Third, The signs will display their location in the car, for example A car Coupler (end) .
Our bus drivers have the same problem, ever seen the route sign say:
Training Coach; See Sign Below; The Big Apple; Merry Christmas (in June) ? ... Emergency Call Police ... that's a different problem.
Mr t__:^)
What does the "R" stand for in R type subway cars like R62. What does the number stand for. Is it like railroad locomotives where numbers are kind of random except higher means newer?
R means Rolling Stock. The number is the contract number.
R 1 was the first city purchased subway car. Only the R 2 was the trucks for the R 1. After that the cars were contracted as a complete set.
The newest rolling stock is the R 141, flat cars.
Phil Hom
ERA3620
There also were "R" contracts for things like roll signs. There was a contract for roll signs ordered in the early 1980s which was R63.
Too bad the Hunter Illuminated Car Sign Company in Flushing is no longer around.
I always understood if stands for "rapid transit," as opposed to surface lines purchases, which are "MB" for "motor bus."
I would have failed that trivia test.
I am wondering why they don't use a W or S or F for MOW equip. or just use the mfg model number, e.g. 707, 727, 747, DC-9, etc.
Mr t__:^)
I would say it's because subway cars are custom equipment, each model built to specifications of the agency ordering it. Airplanes generally start with the same frame (ie, the 747-200, 747-400, and 747SP are all operationally identical, and are based on the same plans, the main differences being length and power. Also, I believe the 'R' is for 'Revenue Contract' I know I read that somewhere....
-Hank
I concur with Hank Eisenstein about the "R" meaning "Revenue Contract".
There is a complete list of the R-series contracts at Joe Korman's pages.
But Bus Contracts are "MB": Motor Bus.
But the "R" for "revenue equipment contract" dates back before MTA and even NYCTA to the City Board of Transportation and the municipal subway (IND). And since that operation involved only subways (and elevateds to some degree) and not buses, trolley buses, or streetcars, "R" for revenue meant revenue **rapid transit** equipment contracts, and the practice stuck.
So, if MB is "motor bus", was there a TB for "trolley bus"? Or a S for "streetcar"? Were there ever trolley buses in New York at all? (I mean, of course, vehicles operating on road tires but with electric motors powered from overhead wire, and most definitely NOT those cheap faux imitation diesel-powered "trolleys" that aren't even really buses.)
Brooklyn had trolleybuses, see http://www.nycsubway.org/bus/trackless/
-Dave
"Revenue equipment" means subway cars, as in "revenue service". Most "R" contracts are non-revenue equipment. And it's a fact that "MB" was (maybe still is) used for bus orders.
I don't know what the contract for the purchase of trolley coaches (c.1948) was.
Neither the Board of Transportation nor the NYCTA ever purchased any streetcars. The City did operate a trolley line prior to Unification for a while, the Williamsburgh Bridge Shuttle, but I doubt any streetcars were purchased new for it.
I agree with Hank and the others who have mentioned that "R" originally stood for "Revenue"; I believe the designation was used to indicate purchases made with bonds which would have to be repaid through the "revenue" collected from fares. None of the construction has been handled with that type of 'revenue bonds.' It's only necessary to go back to the R-2, R-3, and R-5 contracts, for example, to realize that it did not refer to "revenue cars" or "rapid transit cars."
Also, on the question of NYC trolley buses, don't forget the Staten Island operation in the 1920s. (And didn't some Brooklyn trolley buses also operate into Queens?--that would mean that three of the five boroughs had trolley bus service at one time or another.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The Staten Island operation was run by the NYC Department of Plant and Structures. Wonder what they are now?
-Hank
At least 4 (I didn't actually count them) MVMs have been placed on the northbound entrance level of the Bowling Green station (the entry in front of the Custom House) None seemed to be activated as of last night, and they have signs on them reading 'Testing in Progress' , and I think (again, no time to really check them out) they said something else.
-Hank
Besides being installed (electrical) and loaded (paper, ribbon, cards) they have to be connected to the computer inside the booth so the station agent can get any messages from the machine such as out of change, no cards, etc.
I just saw a bank of them being tested at Jay Street this morning. I guess it will take credit cards?
Also, does anyone know if they'll be dispensing the rare and collectible MertroCards? (Hey, Thurston, I think this question's for you!)
Doug aka BMTman
I assume the MVM issues standard/plain "Tryplex" cards (lammated plastic vs. plastic). There were two versions "tested" so collectors should have three now ;-) ... have extras, what to trade ???
Also you can buy the one-trip green card (comes on transfer stock, but it's green vs. blue)
At some point, when more machines are installed, they may offer advertizers the option of marketing on this card.
BTW, when I "voted" for my favorate MC they put me into a database. I just got "spamed" by them this AM.
Mr t__:^)
Allow me to update :)
Went into the Bowling Green station to put another $3.50 on my PPR card (work provides me a 30-day, but it's no good on my x-bus) The 4 machines (I counted this time!) were up and running, and being set up by Cubic personnel. I asked a few questions, and observed a bit.
According to Cubic, the machines at Bowling Green will be activateed on Tuesday. The systems run on Wintel-based machines, and are equipped with a UPS. They are bolted to the station floor in a housing built for 2 machines, and they can have up to 8 languages pre-programmed, but they limit it to 4, depending on neighborhood. Machines in heavy tourist . It was suggested that I 'amaze my freinds' by memorizing the screens (they will be identical, no matter the language) and buy cards in Chinese.
I asked if I could have a blank 'green card', but was told no. The machines will aparently NOT be maintained by the booth personnel, they will instead call 'mommy' when they need 'changing'.
-Hank
This shows me three things:
1. They don't trust the Station Agent with the cash in side, even though the machine will know how much it has.
2. Ultimately they expect the Agents to go away.
3. They care S-O-O-O much about SERVICE to the public.
Mr t__:^)
The reason is safety- they will contain quite a few cards and tons of money. We will be there to assist users witjh the machine. We wont feed the machien to avoid robbery. The money people will feed the machines (and they have guns and even police escort)
Judging from Chicago's experience with installing Transit Card machines in EVERY station (not just "key" stations):
"1. They don't trust the Station Agent with the cash in side, even though the machine will know how much it has."
Definitely true. CTA instituted Transit Cards to get station agents completely out of the business of handling money, tokens, or transfers. CTA has supposedly saved several million dollars that had previously been lost from what they termed "shrinkage" (money both stolen and accidentally lost or misrecorded by Station Agents).
"2. Ultimately they expect the Agents to go away."
Not necessarily so. CTA kept all the Station Agents. They just don't handle money anymore. Instead, they are "Customer Assistants" that leave the booth to answer passenger questions and help new passengers operate the Transit Card machines. CTA has no plans to get rid of the Customer Assistants. In fact, they installed in every station call buttons on the platform and next to the booth, so that if the C.A. is helping someone elsewhere in the station, and someone wants their assistance, they can push the button and a recorded voice pages the C.A.:"Customer Assistant is needed on the platform."
"3. They care S-O-O-O much about SERVICE to the public."
Maybe it's just me, but the Customer Assistants seem to be a real **improvement** in service. When they handled money and tokens, they had to pretty much stay in their booth. Now, they can -- indeed MUST -- leave the booth to answer passenger questions, check out the condition of the station, etc.. And since they help new or confused passengers to operate the Transit Card machines, there's no reduction of customer service.
Contrary to the Luddite tendencies of some of the people on this board, not all innovation in transit is bad, not even innovations that APPEAR to reduce the necessary work force. Before multiple-unit door control, for example, there had to be a train crewman for each two cars -- standing exposed to the elements between the cars!
[3. They care S-O-O-O much about SERVICE to the public."
Maybe it's just me, but the Customer Assistants seem to be a real **improvement** in service.]
[And since they help new or confused passengers to operate the Transit Card machines, there's no reduction of customer service. ]
Don't get me wrong ... as we've seen in comments from the Subway-Buff and others, if mngt. would let them many/most of the staff at the token booth would provide "service" to the customers.
I can SEE the difference at this depot where eye know mngt. wants us to provide service to the customers.
P.S. I also remembering recent comments from some the engineers & conductors on this SERVICE subject.
Mr t__:^)
So..where next? When I was in the city last week, it was the first time i had been in the IND WTC station for awhile, (since the booth got moved)and it looks like the space where the token/change was is going to be where MVMs are going to be....
I received the following email from "MetroCard Product Development" (PRODDEV@NYCT.com) yesterday:
Dear MetroCard Customer:
Thank you for your interest in our MetroCards and MetroCard holders! In response to your requests, we are taking this opportunity to inaugurate email announcements of some of our upcoming products.
We respect your privacy. You may reply to this message or send an email message to us at proddev@nyct.com indicating that you do not wish to receive additional promotional messages of this type from us, and your email address will be removed from future promotional mailings.
New Commemorative MetroCards
*June - Subway Kiosks MetroCard - our second card in the six-card "Subway Cool" MetroCard series - available for purchase in June through the Internet at metrocard.citysearch.com (various denominations) and at our Transit Museum Stores ($15 only).
New Commemorative MetroCard Holders
*Began in May - New York Views - seven holders featuring scenes of New York City - $1 each, at participating MetroCard merchants and at our Transit Museum Stores.
*Mid June through August - Museum Pieces - four holders, featuring art from the Metropolitan Museum of Art (starting 6/22), the Whitney Museum of American Art (6/1), the Museum of the City of New York (7/1), and the Transit Museum (8/1) - $1.50 each, at the museum gift shops, at our Transit Museum Stores, and at other merchants as shown on our web site.
*Mid June through the fall - Great Subways - 46 holders, featuring subways from around the world - exclusively at our Transit Museum Stores; different holders available each month for $1.50 each, boxed set of all 46 for $60 available in August.
If you would like more information about MetroCard and about New York City Transit, please visit our web site at www.mta.nyc.ny.us
We hope you enjoy the upcoming MetroCard products.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Fisher and Rachel Givner
MetroCard Product Development
I see Todd got Spamed on Beacon Hill, guess you "voted" too ?
I've actually spoken to Jonathan twice: 1. Pleasure, I wanted a consolation prize for finding cards not on their list of 77. 2. Business, was interested in how much it would cost QS to put it's logo on some cards. The cost is reasonable.
Mr t__:^)
QS putting its logo on some cards? Are they going to do it?
I put the details togather & passed it upstairs, I'm just Thurston in the basement here. There was interest at a high level. If it becomes a reality I'll post here so those of you that want one can buy it. It would be a $30 (33) "Value" card.
P.S. If/when we decide to do it, it'll take another couple months to get the graphics done in Japan.
Mr t__:^)
Yup, Mr. T., I voted from my perch on Beacon Hill.
My idea for a MetroCard: A small child trying to peer over the sill of a railfan window. When I'm at the RFW I always give way to an interested child!
[When I'm at the RFW I always give way to an interested child!]
Me too, and I usually give them a trivia test, e.g. do you know why there's a green & yellow light on that signal ?
Mr t__:^)
I've done that on occasion and once, the child actually knew why. She pointed out emergency trippers, the third rail, knew the track guage and type of third rail. When she and her father left the train, I saw him wearing a SEPTA jacket.
Yes, you can't assume the kid is stupid about this stuff. Mom or dad may be on the train, or the kid may be a buff already. For me the trivia test opens the door to some conversation. I may be the teacher or the student, and if dad/mom opens the door it can turn out to be a great trip.
Mr t__:^)
I have been reading a great deal of messages about the Chrystie Street connection that took place in 1967. I still don't understand the real significance of it. I have heard it resulted in a change of numbers and letters of various and sundry trains, but even on that score I'm not sure. Can some of you out there enlighten me? There must have been more to it than that.
In global terms, the Chrystie Street connection was the first major link-up between the BMT and IND. Although the connection from the BMT 60th Street tunnel to the Queens Boulevard IND line pre-dated it, as did the Brooklyn IND connection to the Culver line, Chrystie really meant that the BMT and IND would forever be merged into one (except in the minds of railfans). Although some equipment had been interchanged between the BMT and IND before Chrystie, that even hastened the intermelding of equipment on a basis not previously seen. In hindsight, maybe it wasn't as big a deal as it was made out to be at the time in 1967. But it certainly is near the top of the list of the big subway events of the century.
Perhaps the following will elucidate. In the weeks preceeding the changeover mini-posters were in BMT div cars saying that essentially the whole southern division would be reconfigured, and very few then current terminal paiurs/routes would remain. Item, the Concourse (D) swapped Culver for Brighton, The F got Culver instead of miodtown or Bway Laf, The West End swapped midtown for Wash Hts., and briefly Sea Beach got a real Express! One local Bay Ridge community paper demanded restoration of the old on the grounds of confusion. AND of course, sadly, the TA made matters infinitely worse by not having sufficient destination signage on assigned equipment resulting in blank white for everything and the usual mumbled announcements. All that said. it was an improvement in throughput and travel times for some and would have continued as such absent the ludicrous behaviopur of everyone vis a vis Man Br and the cheapo McDonalds control freak solution to high performance cars being mishandled. IF the bridge problem is ever legitimately fixed, and the signalling reliably upgraded, then the potential improvements can be realized. BTW, much as I like seeing out the windows on the bridge-START DIGGING the new tunnel YESTERDAY!
The purpose of the whole affair was to give the BMT Southern Division and the IND 6th Av. lines more useful through routes. Prior to the connection (and the 6th Av. Express Tracks) only the D was through routed from the bottom end of 6th Av. The entire Southern Division of the BMT was limited to Broadway and the Nassau St. line. which looped back over the Bridge. The connection allowed 6th Av. trains to reach all the Brooklyn destinations while trains from Brooklyn had a choice of either the Montague Tunnel to the Lower Manhattan local or Nassau to the Eastern Division or crossing the Bridge to either 6th Av. or Broadway. This made the 6th Av. Line a lot busier.
A second Connection brought 6th Av. trains to the Eastern Division, but it didn't generate enough traffic. (People probably followed habit and changed for uptown at Delancy-Essex, getting off a train which was going their way!)
The only loss in the effort was the cutting of the Nassau Loop, meaning that all bridge trains had to go uptown.
The failure to keep the connection between the Broadway line and the North tracks on the bridge was costly when the south tracks went south.
Gerry: Is that why when the IND & BMT starting running along similar lines with the Chrystie connection, BMT numbers were changed to letters?
Actually the letters for all BMT routes were assigned in 1960, 7 years before. The co-existed with the old numbers. In 1967, after the merger, the numbers were abolished and disappeared from trains.
Southern Division stations had "Know Trains at a Glance" placards prominently displayed on platforms which cross referenced the new letters with the old titles. I remember seeing one such sign in 1967. Shore Line has one up on the wall in their maintenance barn.
It read thus:
M - Nassau St. Express (this was used on Bankers' Specials)
N - Sea Beach Express
Q - Brighton Express
QB - Brighton Local via Bridge
QT - Brighton Local via Tunnel
RR - 4th Ave. Local
T - West End Express
TT - West End Local
Dear Chris:
In 1960s, the R-27s and R-30s introduced the letter markings for
the BMT Division. The code was extended, using the letters J to T.
This was the complete BMT letter code on the R-27s/R-30s roll signs.:
(J) Jamaica-Nassau Street Express
(JJ)Jamaica-Nassau Street Local
(KK)Broadway-Brooklyn Local
(L) 14th Street-Canarsie Express
(LL)14th Street-Canarsie Local
(M) Myrtle-Chambers St-Nassau Street Express
(N) Broadway-Sea Beach Express via Bridge
(Q) Broadway-Brighton Express via Bridge
(QB)Broadway-Brighton Local via Bridge
(QT)Broadway-Brighton Local via Tunnel
(RR)Broadway-4th Avenue Local via Tunnel
(SS)Shuttle
(T) Broadway-West End Express via Bridge
(TT)West End Local via Nassau Street Loop
James S. Li
Prior to the Chrystie St. connection opening, the M marking was used for Banker's Specials, since it was already assigned to the Nassau St. express and that's where the specials ended up.
Fred; The BMT Number System goes back to 1925 with the delivery of the Triplexes. However only a minority of the BMT fleet, the Triplexes and Multis,Green Hornet and Zephyr,actually displayed the numbers. The vast majority of the equiptment, Standards,C,Bu,Q and Bluebirds did not. The BMT did use the routes numbers on their maps though. After unification the BOT while not abolishing the system did not encourage it and BMT routes were shown with names only although the equiptment that could display the numbers did.
The BOT ordered R-11's did have route numbers but there were only ten of them and they were seldom seen. The NYCTA surpirsingly revived the system with the 200 R-16's in 1954. They had number signage for the BMT Eastern Division Routes 10,14,15 and 16.
When the R-27's started to arrive in 1960 the construction of Chrystie Street had already begun so they were given a letter system starting that ran from J to TT starting right after the IND HH.
The Triplexes were retired in July 1965 but the R-11's returned to service in August of that year. They and the R-16's were the only ones to carry the BMT route numbers in the days leading up to Chrystie Street.
Once Chrystie openned the R-16's received additional readings for the lettered routes on which they would be operating. In 1969 they received those marvelous multi-colored roll signs which had a different color for ever route.
The R-11's soldiered on and stubbornly refused to carry route letters and remaining faithful to the old BMT system. In October of 1967 they made an appearance on the B and carried #3 route signs. They ran off there last days on the Franklin Shuttle were they carried #7 signs. This must have been a little perplexing to riders if they were coupled to a pair of R-32's which carried the "SS" sign.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I few VMOs (Very Minor Observations), Larry.
The NYCTA surpirsingly revived the system with the 200 R-16's in 1954.
I would call that "course of least resistance." They didn't have the BMT route letters figured out yet, and needed something to put on the rollsigns. R-1s when they ran on the Fourth Avenue Local in the '50s had "2" on their rollsigns. R-10s when on the BMT also carried numbers. I never saw these in person.
When the R-27's started to arrive in 1960 [...]
My recollection is that R27s began to arrive in 1959. I've seen the 1960 date elsewhere, though. I saw my first R27 pictured in (IIRC( a picture in the Daily News. I was stunned, puzzled and disappointed when I saw the "QT" on the rollsign. I was hoping BMT numbers would be on the new equipment. I also disliked the "Broadway Brighton" designation. What can I say--railfans are neophobes :-)
Also I've seen references to the first GMC fishbowls arriving in 1960. On this one I can even more confidently say 1959. I was standing on Cortelyou Road near Flatbush Ave. chatting with a B23 operator when my first ever fishbowl went by on B41. I rudely cut off the conversation, and ran over to see it, with a big sign on the side: "Ride this New 1960 Bus." "Dat's absoid," I said to myself, "everyone knows it's 1959."
The first R-27s arrived in late 1960 (October or November). I remember the day well, I rode the first train home from school (Stuyvesant HS) to Brooklyn that day. I also remember being puzzled by the "QT" designation.
I remember the first fishbowl busses on the B-44 (Nostrand Ave.) route in the fall of 1959.
-- Ed Sachs
I concur with Eddie Sachs about the first fishbowl deliveries. I lived on East 26th & Avenue D in Brooklyn and remember seeing them on the B41 for the first time.
In December, 1959, we moved out to Suffolk County. So they were well around before the end of 1959.
According to the GM Production List, the NCYTA Fishbowls #1-190 were delivered in October and November of 1959.
Ah, the magic of "model year"! While this is a bit off topic, I'll summarize the education I got a few years back about "model year" in the automotive industry and explain how easy it is to get confused about when new model vehicles are introduced. "Model year" is actually a federally-regulated designation, and refers to the model of a vehicle that is the currently-offered model on sale on January 1st of that year. Ford used it in a creative fashion a few years back when they introduced their new-style pickup trucks early in the calendar year as the next year's model - in order to not interrupt the flow of new pickups to dealers, they produced the "old" model bearing the current year designation at some plants and the "new" model bearing the next year's designation at others, until by mid-December all plants were converted to the "new" model. It was therefore possible to have an "old" model pickup that was actually built nine months after one of the "new" models. They did a similar thing with the 1997/1998 Windstar models, where the 1997 Windstars were built between August and early December 1996, switching over to production of the 1998 Windstar in mid-December. None were delivered to dealers for sale, however, until January 2, 1997, thereby meeting the letter of the law. (It was good for me - I bought my 1996 Windstar in February of 1997 and because it was TWO model years old got one heck of a rebate and deal!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi Anon_e-mouse:
We are Windstar owners , also. How do you like yours?
we leased a 98 GL model in May of 98 for 2 yrs. It's dark forrest
green with the monster extended front driver's door and tip and slide
front seat. Next time, a 4 dr model for me. Like it very much, we had 7 troublesome years with a 91 Plymouth Grand Voyager LE , wood trim, light blue. In it last year , the paint started peeling off.
Thus prompted us to go "Ford".
Chuck( I love mass transit) Greene
Love it! It's an LX, a little bit lighter shade of green than yours, loaded - the dealer was already out of '97 models and this was his last '96 - no one wanted the electronic dash (which I was skeptical of at first but now I love it). It's got 62K now and (since warranty) the only problem has been the driver's side power window. In keeping with my real passion, its license plate reads TROLLEY (North Carolina plates, since we still have a house there - keeps the insurance costs lower). Can't say that I like the four door models as well - but then again we only have one child left at home during most of the year and our train-loving grandson lives in Nevada, so it mainly serves as my commuter vehicle.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are you sure it's not the clear coat finish that's peeling off? My Jeep has lost most of its clear coat from the roof and hood, and now it's starting to peel off the sides. It still runs like an R-32, BMT standard, Triplex, R-10, take your pick. 363,000-plus miles and counting.
Paul: I've heard two stories about how the R-10's got their BMT Route numbers. One was that the sign curtains of the R-10 and R-16 were sewn together. The other is that they did a straight swap as about 50 or so R-16's were assigned to the IND for the openning of the Rockaway Line and they were replaced by a like number of R-10's on the #15 Jamaica Line.
I don't know about the 1959 date for the R-27's though. According to the NYD Bulletin of 11/60 the first R-27's arrived on 11/2/60 and entered passenger service on 11/15/60.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, You must be right about the R-27s coming in 1960. I don't have the appropriate issue of the Bulletin but ERA Headlights said the R27s were ordered September 1959 for delivery a year later, so that would be 1960.
I can't say the delivery of the R27s was a happy moment for me. Until they came along the major subway fleets of the BMT were pretty much untouched.
It was yet another blow to the great era of electric traction which was crumbling everywhere during the immediate post war decade-and-a-half.
Paul: That was just a little before my time on the BMT. Prior to 1964 trips on the BMT were limited to vists to a cousin in Richmond Hills(usually R-16's on the #15) and the annual end of the school year trip to Coney Island.(Standards on the Brighton and return with Triplexes on the Sea Beach)
The arrival of the R-27's brought an end to one of the most colorful eras on the BMT. In a very short time the SIRT Motors,Lo-V's,Multis and BX Trailers all were gone.
By the time I got down there on my own starting in 1964 the R-27,30 and 30A's were firmly established as the new boys on the Southern Division while their older brothers the R-16's held sway on the Eastern Division. The Standards still were there in strength but the Triplexes days were numbered.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The arrival of the R-32s signalled the beginning of the end for the Triplexes and remaining BMT standards on the Southern Division.
It's quite possible that the R-10s and R-16s had their route curtains swapped out. I'm not so sure about the destination curtains. There is a photo in New York Subway Cars of an R-16 sporting an A sign whose destination curtain says, "Wash. Hgts-207th St." On the R-1/9s and R-10s, the destination curtain had, "Wash. Hts-207th St." In other words, the sign on the R-16 curtains had the g in "Heights" while the R-1/9 and R-10 sign did not. Both of my IND destination curtains say "Wash. Hts-207th St."
It also appears that the 30 R-10s which spent time on the Eastern Division were painted in the same olive drab as the R-16s. Or perhaps at least a few of them were.
Steve B, I have two exterior pictures and one interior picture of R-16 #6400 supplied to me in 1954 by the transit authority. These are 8 X 10 B&W and the signs are all IND. A Line. They read A over 8th Ave and Wash Hts over 207th St. Note no g in Hts. My written note under the picture states that the R-16's were delivered with IND signs but were converted to BMT. Incidentally the 6400's were all delivered before the 6300's. My memory is that the R-10's on the BMT were not painted but operated as they did on the IND with weathered red-orange numbers and stripping and no signage displayed at first. I left NY in 1957 so I don't know what might have happened after that.
Karl B
There were two (maybe one or two more) trains of R-10s that were shipped over to Jamaica service prior to the arrival of the R-16s so crews could become familiar with post-war cars. Those operated with route numbers on the car ends.
The first train (the ceremonial one) was made up of R-16s; I had an invitation (lost, alas, over the years) and it was a pleasant trip, with the band, the mayor, and a big "Wavecrest" canvas sign across the front. And, in a typical TA anti-BMT action--they took the first post-war BMT cars (other than the ten R-11s) and shipped them to the IND. It's a wonder they didn't send R-1s back the way they did in the late 1940s so the BMT wouldn't get the R-10s when they were new.
Does anyone know if the R-10s, when new, had both letters and numbers the way the R-11s did?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Perhaps you were thinking of R-26's. They arrived in '59
I think you mean October of 1968
Eric : I assume your referring to the appearance of the R-11's on the B. Your right it was 10/12/68 not 1967.
Sorry fot the typo.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Letter markings on the Eastern Division didn't appear on all routes right away, since the BMT standards were still holding down the fort there. I remember riding a JJ train of R-27/30s in March of 1968, and I'm sure the short-lived RJ route was marked accordingly right from the start. Didn't RJ trains also have those round colored disks on their guard chains the way NX trains did? The LL marking wasn't seen on Canarsie trains until the R-7/9s arrived in January 1969. At least that was when I saw those cars on the Canarsie for the first time. Get this: I referred to them as "new cars". Well, they certainly were newer than the BMT standards (even though they didn't run any better) and at least they had LL signs up front. Progress!
Yes, the RJ did have those round disks on the front of their cars. And when I ride the A i too refer to the R44's as new and the r38's as old, even though the R44's are 25 years old and only 5 years older than the R-38's. LOL
The oldest cars I still think of as "new" were the R16s, which I first saw on the Jamaica Line early in 1957. At the time they were the newest BMT-IND cars on the system.
But we're all trumped by an old gent I met at the ERA back then. He talked about how he and his friends hated seeing their beloved horsecars and cable cars being replaced by those newfangled trolleys!
I belive the last horsecar in New York was Chambers Street (?) in 1914. The last cable car was, I believe, Montague Street, also about 1914. Those dates are pretty late, considering.
One horse car line survived until 1916 or 1917 in Manhattan. There was a family friend of my father's who came to the States back in the teens, and he remembered seeing horse cars in Manhattan.
Let's face it: streetcars were an improvement over horse cars in more ways than one. Well, I'll leave it at that.
The most common explanation of the effect of Chyrstie Street is that it "merged the BMT and IND." I would express it a little differently.
Until Chrystie Street, the BMT and IND were routed and operated more or less in the same fashion as in pre-Unification days (extensions and abandonments excepted, of course).
Chrystie Street's most basic effect to date is that it opened up the IND 6th Avenue Line and its northern branches to trains from both the BMT Southern and Eastern Divisions, although the latter connection is no longer used.
In opening up the 6th, the BMT's Broadway Manhattan mainline was deemphasized, and the Nassau Loop, an important service for the BMT Southern Division was broken.
Since the Manhattan Bridge troubles the Broadway Line is virtually a ghost operation. Before Chrystie, the Broadway Line had approx. 30 expresses an hour on three services plus another 20 locals on two services. Now it has two local services and no expresses.
Many consider the Broadway to be the more convenient line, with its diagonal routing, and better connections to both IRT east and west side services and the 14th St. Line.
The Nassau Loop had four Southern Division rush hour services before 1957, then three services, two services immediately after Chrystie, and now has only one.
On the IND side, there is much less impact, except technically, although one might argue that Bronx and Queens IND riders have more choices to Coney Island.
The opening of the Chrystie St. connection brought an official end to the old BMT number marking code. It should be mentioned that by that time, only Eastern Division trains served by R-16s still carried number markings. Letter markings were firmly entrenched on the Southern Division lines by Novenber of 1967; however, letter markings didn't appear on the Eastern Division right away, mainly because BMT standards were still providing base service on those routes. I do remember seeing JJ trains of R-27s in March of 1968.
Joe Korman's website has original pamphlets scanned. These were widely distributed in late 1967 in anticipation of service changes. Additional pamphlets were distributed in mid-1968 which outlined additional service adjustments and changes.
Mass confusion prevailed during those first days right after the connection opened. There were stories of misrouted trains, among other things. I remember a newspaper article of how a motorman pushed the wrong button on a button board, and wound up crossing the Manhattan Bridge instead of, presumably, the Montague St. tunnel.
Sid, Dave & Paul. Thanks for the info. I got another answer to a question that has puzzled me.
Writing about the changes wrought by Chrystie Street and the Manhattan Bridge closure, I got a bug in my head.
Given the current dismal state of Southern Division service, and especially the orphaning of the Sea Beach Line, would it make sense to do a little switching for better balance?
What I'm thinking of is:
During the hours of approximately 6am-9pm Mon-Fri, possibly adding Saturday as well, same hours.
1. Make the current D Brighton Local the D Brighton Express from Brighton Beach to Concourse-205th.
2. Create a new Brighton Local "Q" to operate via the current N route via Broadway Local and Astoria.
3. Operate the N via the current Q route via 6th Avenue Express and 63rd Street tunnel.
In Short:
D - Brighton / 6th Ave. Express Brighton - 205.
Q - Brighton / Broadway Local Coney Island - Astoria
N - Sea Beach / 6th Ave. Express Coney Island - L.I.C.
No change to current service at other times.
POSITIVES:
Better balance for the whole Southern Division. I lived on the Brighton during my entire 26 years in Brooklyn, but I'm not sure it makes sense for both Brighton Locals and Expresses to have 6th Avenue Express service while Sea Beach has none.
Better consistency of Brighton Local / Broadway Local (same as pre-Chrystie) and Sea Beach Express / 6th Avenue Express.
NEGATIVES:
Loss of simplicity when D and N train routings change during off hours. Angry Brighton riders.
I'd really like to hear comments, especially from those who may use or are employed on the Southern Division and might be able to point out warps in my wisdom.
TA won't go for it because they would have to run the Q 24/7 to maintain Astoria service. Astoria has Speaker Vallone and most of the N line's ridership.
The current Q service is only part time, saving them money. Remember, that's the holy grail at 370 Jay st.The public be damned.
Another issue is the additional bottleneck it produces at Dekalb.
As to R46's point, I would keep the current arrangement during off-hours, Q would be Astoria during regular hours, N during off hours.
I don't see what the difference would be at DeKalb.
Well, the Brighton line can switch to the Montague tunnel tracks and the 4th Ave. locals can switch to the Brighton bridge tracks south of Dekalb. There's no issue of a crossover/fouling move but you're adding two switching operations where you currently have none. That's the bottleneck.
-Dave
The MTA's East River Crossing Study had dozens of alternatives, but had just a few it considered to be worth implementing.
Switching the N (via bridge) and Q (via tunnel) made the pass list.
It is not inconceivable that when the H tracks open and the A/B tracks close, the B/N/D will be via bridge and the M/Q/R via tunnel.
That interlocking [DeKalb Avenue] was rebuilt, supposedly to accomodate 90 TPH either way. What do we have going through there now ... During the peak hour from 501p to 600p, I count 48 TPH (6M, 10D, 9Q, 8N, 8B and 7R). Before Chrystie Street, when they had grade crossings north of the station, they managed 72 TPH, or was it higher?
So if having to throw a couple of switches when the interlocking is running less than 55% of capacity constitutes a bottleneck, the TA is in really sad shape.
No matter what is done, if the current status remains, people will need to change trains. They did before the Christie St. cutoff was built, and the'll continue to need to do it. In the "old" days, riders (assuming the rush-hour travel period) on the Brighton, West End and Sea Beach Expresses would need to change at Pacific or DeKalb, depending on the line, to catch a tunnel train to lower Manhattan and the Court and Lawrence Street stations in Brooklyn . Riders on the 4th Ave., West End and Brighton locals, and Culver Express, would need to change to catch Manhattan Bridge trains to mid-town Manhattan.
Want to make the N a 6th Ave. express? Then its riders needing to go to lower Manhattan/downtown Brooklyn would need to switch. Want to make the Q a tunnel train? The same there, re: its riders needing to go to mid-town Manhattan. Isn't that the way it also works now at Jay St., for some A/C and F riders?
Re: ability to handle 48 trains/hour: gosh, in the "old" days when there were at least seven train routes passing through the six-track DelKalb complex, the control tower seemed to be able to handle it. Imagine the northbound scenario: West End, Sea Beach and (I think) Culver Expresses bypassing DeKalb on the inner express tracks, with the Culver (I think) switching tracks just after Myrtle Ave. station to the south side track bound for the Nassau St. Loop, Brighton locals at the station on the inner "express" track proceeding straight ahead through the scissors crossing north of the station to the middle "tunnel" track, Brighton Expresses on that "express" track crossing over to the outside "bridge" track, 4th Ave. and West End locals on the "local" track crossing over to that middle "tunnel" track - and this went on for hours, I guess. How come it could be done then, and its a problem now? Or is it just laziness?
Mike Rothenberg
The rule books and signal systems in the "old days" allowed so many trains to run too. The trains before 1970 keyed by automatic signals regularly with far fewer station time automatics to deal with. If you had wheel detectors back then do you think 90 would be possible?
yes why is that? in the old days, i assume that there werent accidents everyday what is the mta scared of? bring back the old system!!!remove the grade timers and speed restrictions. i see hundreds of NYers dangerously jet across busy streets just to save a few minutes in travel time. Speed over safety. i think its worth the risk if there is any
My brain clouded over thinking about your routings, but suffice to say:
All Fourth Avenue trains not bypassing the station were on the outside tracks in DeKalb station ... 4th Ave. local trains therefore had to use the crossover 24/7.
All Brighton trains were on the inside platform tracks, so all Brighton Expresses had to cross over.
Even the Fourth Avenue express tracks were not unfouled during rush hours. Culver Expresses coming from the tunnel had to switch over to the Fourth Avenue express tracks north of the station ... a slow move given the curve and grade in the tunnel, followed by the switch. This was the site of the famous three-way home signal with the blue indication.
I don't think the TA has nearly the confidence in its employees' capabilities that its predecessors did. Maybe if the system were better managed, the employees would be more inspired.
And going back to today, it is slooow going through Dekalb WITHOUT having trains crossing in front of each other.
I am old enough to remember pre-chrystie and they did manage to keep everything moving pretty consistently. And even post-chrystie moved OK until everything fell apart in the 70's.
Now, with only one side of the bridge open, it makes sense to minimize the switching, since the bridge itself is a big bottleneck. If they ever open both sides at once (unlikely for another 200 years) maybe then there will be enough capacity to keep things going and allow various routings.
In the past they have done away with crossovers, such as at 96th and Bway. At one time locals and expresses went up both branches. They haven't done that since the 50's or so. And they don't mix and match at Jay st either. And it would probably improve flow at Franklin if they didn't.
This all seems to me like running a railroad for operating convenience rather than passenger convenience.
You wouldn't run a business like that.
No. Not for convenience. If something slows down the operation, it is in everyones interest to speed it up.
I personally would not want to change things. I need to go uptown, so having every train go uptown is convenient for me.
Of course, for those going downtown it means a change of trains. They sometimes have to wait.
If we had trains going both places, with the switching and backup involved, they would also wait.
You'll never get a "D" to go fast enough to provide decent express service with the current fleet. The R40 "Q"s, even as locals, will dust them every time. Of course, you could put all the R40s on the "D" and give the "Q" local the R68s.
Wayne
Everyone seems to feel the R68s are turtle-like?
Why? Different control equipment? Performance designed out of them? For what reason?
Back when, Triplexes were not nearly as nimble as Standards, but they managed to get up to speed and run their schedules very effectively. What's wrong with the R68s.
Lack of field shunting, for starters. Plus, the R-68s outweigh the slant R-40s, yet are powered with the same motors.
I'd love to see the slants on the D (or the A, for that matter). At least it would bring back some excitement on the express dash up CPW. With the R-68s, it's about as exciting as watching paint dry.
I ride both the R68 and the R40, and I can hear them from my house. There is little real difference in the speed.
2 trains leaving Newkirk at the same time pick up the same speed. The R68 only slows down because it has to. The R68s are also more comfortable. The R40s have them beat on the air conditioning though.
Dear Colleagues:
Back in 1972 five LIRR MU's were transfered to SIRT to help protect the service until the R-44's arrived. Four of these units were 2505,2509,2517 and 2646. Does anyone know the number of the fifth unit.
Thanks again for all your help.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In the NY Daily News Thursday June 10, page 8, is a article about sweaty passengers at the Grand Central Station Subway Hub - one of the system's busiest and hottest spots - will be able to seek refuge in zones of cool air created by an experimental $10 million system, officials say.
Starting in May 2000, streams of cold air will blast from the ceiling onto the #4, #5, and #6 line platforms - creating areas that will be 20 degrees cooler at certain spots.
After the good folks of SubTalk reads the rest of the article, your most cool thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
You sure it's the Daily news, and not the Post? Are you sure it's page 8? Cause I can't find it....
-Hank
It was the Daily News, I found it on their web site.
Hank, it was in the early edition of the Daily News for Thursday June 10, not the sports final.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
What remains to be seen is if they will maintain the system. For years, the Brooklyn Bridge Station on the Lex had an artesian well water cooling system that actually did reduce the temperature by 10-15 degrees but it was abandoned as too expensive.
It is only chilled water circulated through pipes and small fans to blow air over them. The pipes have been in place since last year.
Yeah but down in the 7 station it's still gonna be hot, right? You know the 7 station there has gotta have alot of work done.
Being at the lowest level, it is always going to have leaks.
With its high ceilings, an a/c system wont work.
Since cold air is heavier than hot air, the height of the ceiling would only prevent the air-flow from a vent on the ceiling from being felt on the platform. It would net stop the cold air from the vent from mixing with the hot air on the platform and lowering the overall air temperature on the platform. Indeed, many large indoor spaces have central a/c vents the air-flow from which cannot be felt by those standing on the floor. The room temp is kept down anyway.
I'm wondering how the railcars using the South Brooklyn Railway, could operate, along with streetcars, on the MacDonald Ave. portion of their travel. Were the wheel flanges on the streetcars built with a shape identical to those of ordinary heavy freight cars or were they of typical streetcar design? Were the MacDonald tracks built with a rail profile designed for the rail cars or streetcars, assuming they were different? Or were they built as an "average" to accommodate both sets of wheel flanges? If the operation was in an area with no cross-streets, would there have been severe speed restrictions because either the freight cars, or streetcars, would have tended to derail owing to wheel flange-rail profile incompatibilities, requiring slow speed to keep "on track", so to speak?
Thanks.
Mike Rothenberg
I'm no expert on the subject. This was before my time. My experience with the NY&A street running on the Bushwick Branch and with Trolley cars at TMNY might help.
Trolleys can run without a problem on full size railroad, but at the switch frogs can be troublesome. Some trolleys have smaller wheels and flanges, and "get lost" so to speak in a big frog meant for a locomotive.
Trolley rail will support engines and freight cars without a problem. Low speed of course. The flange ways are ussually gouged out when the first axle passes.
While being no expert I could reasonably assume that there is no difference in flang clearances for a streetcar/freight or subway car.
BTW, I once heard a story from a friend of mine who used to live in Kensington -- along the SBK running route. He recalled seeing one of the first deliveries of the R-44 cars down McDonald Ave. and had said that the cars were loaded with bricks, apparently up to the ceilings! He had always thought this was strange. Taking an educated guess I'd surmise that the bricks may have been used to weight the cars down to avoid derailing -- particularly at switches and curves --as they were pulled along the streetcar tracks to Coney Island yards. Or those bricks may just have been in the cars for some building project at CI and they merely used the empty R-44's as a transport, a la "killing two birds with one stone".
In any event, maybe someone else frequenting the SubTalk posts may be able to help out here.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
There are differences between standard railroad wheels and streetcar wheels. If my mental picture is right, the flanges on rr wheels are deeper and the wheel tread is a bit wider; one museum I know has a special drop-in device for track switches so that the streetcars can use the railroad-track section (which is constructed differently for diesels, electric locomotives and interurbans).
When I was a kid, I remember seeing short freight trains running down McDonald Avenue, pulled by electric steeplecabs, and moving at slow speed. They couldn't operate very fast because once past the unpaved section at Ditmas Avenue, it was street running all the way, with lost of local vehicular traffic on the tracks and lots of cross streets.
I remember delivery of R-10s, R-12s,or R-14s--I was under age 10 and the thing that stayed in my memory was not the number of side doors but the brownish-grey colors and the orange stripe--I think they were pulled in trains of 20 cars or so, but might be wrong.
One of the "famous" things about the SBK was the tying of restraints around some old box cars so they could get through the 38th Street tunnel without getting stuck. That has the sound of another urban legend, but it does seem to have been true.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Streetcar wheel profiles have a narrower tread and a flange that
is both narrower and shallower as compared to rapid transit and
class 1 railroads. On straight sections of T-rail they are all
compatible. I think McDonald Ave was girder rail though, and
that causes some problems because it has a built-in fixed flangeway.
Wider-wheeled cars have a tendency to climb up on their flanges
and possible derail on girder rail. At very low speeds it's usually
OK. On curves and switches the large-wheeled cars will usually
force their way through, but it beats up the track quickly.
< One of the "famous" things about the SBK was the tying of restraints around some old box cars so they could get through the 38th Street tunnel without getting stuck. That has the sound of another urban legend, but it does seem to have been true. >
That is true. The TA publication "Transit" had an article about this late '50s. It seems that some freight cars have a tendency to sag and bulge when they get old, and the clearances in the SBK/West End tunnel are not generous, so something which the TA humorously characterized as a "corset" was applied to such cars to make sure they would make it through the tunnel.
Peggy Darlington & I will be doing this "Field Trip" a second time on Tuesday June 22nd for those of you that had other commitments on June 4th, e.g. Subway Series ;-p
We'll gather at WTC at 6 PM on Track 4/5, and proceed to Newark's Penn Station where we'll pick up the PCCs. We'll also incl. at least two photo ops (Orange St. & EOL) ... so far the same plan that Sid of NJ used, hay if you can't improve on it, why change it !
Comming back Peggy has added PATH stops at Harrasion, Grove, Exchange Place, Pavonia, and Hoboken to see the sites. She's working on a write-up that we'll pass out. From there we'll return to NYC via the 33rd route & stop at stations along the way that each have something unique about them, incl. a run by closed 28th St Stn.
Peggy has figured that getting on/off will cost about $6 (e.g. Path is $1 & PCC is $1, but Orange St & end of PCC line will cost addl dollar)
You can buy a 2-trip pass on PATH at WTC, & tickets at Newark's Penn Stn, but bring a few extra SBA or paper dollars.
For those that just want to do the PCC portion you can leave us at Newark's Penn Stn & get home early, for the rest it will take a bit longer to then the last time (I cought a 8:15 LIRR 6/4)
Reservations: Advance reservations not necessary, but we would like to get some idea of how many plan to join us, so reply here or click on my name, up top, and send me private e-mail.
Mr t__:^)
P.S. .... BTW, in case you haven't seen it in the "Events" section of this site you will have another chance to ride a PCC, well two if you count the new museum at Brookly. I'm refering to the special event at Shoreline/Branford June 26th & 27th. They'll be bringing out many of their NYC trolleys & subways, incl. #1001 the FIRST pcc to enter revenue service in the US.
But for you purest the planned 6/22 Field Trip on Newark's PCC will incl. commuters giving you strange looks & pushing to get on/off the train ;-)
Mr t__:^)
I've been trying to reach Olga Rodrigo, the station manager for the R at Court Street for months. She does not answer phone!!! Is she sick or is the notion of a station manager another sham by the TA to trick customers into thinking that they are responsive to the public???
The number is (718) 243-5075 or 5328 if anyone wants to try calling themselves.
Does anyone know of a number to complain about TA employees failing to do their job???
Speaking of failing to do their job...
Every morning at Court Street there are cops standing around waititing for someone to jump the turnstyles, meanwhile there are people lighting cigarettes as they exit the turnstyles!!! What is the law on this one??? These people should wait till their on the street!!! What's more people smoke all the way down the stairs to the turnstyle and then throw their buts on the ground outside the token booth.
If Cops and TA employees would bother to do their jobs the subway and the city would be better!!!
I don't know if you realize this or not, but no one here can do anything about any of the numerous complaints about the system. This is a FAN site, not an EMPLOYEE or TA site. If you want to complain about the TA, I suggest you send an email to voicers@edit.nydailynews.com, which is the email address for the Voice of the People in the New York Daily News. Also, if you are noticing a problem at Court St, you are certainly close enough to both the Jay St. and Livingston St. TA office buildings. They have a public accomodations office, which is where they handle such complaints. As for your complaint about the cops not doing their job, again, send an email to the Daily News, or contact the CCRB at 1 Police Plaza, or the Mayor's Office.
-Hank
Thank you.
Chris- You can write her:
at Field Manager (her name)
New York City Transit
Division of Stations
Room 427-4
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
regarding the smoking: ANYWHERE in the subway it is illegal--stairways, mezzanines, elevated or open cut platforms, between train cars.
Now the harsh reality: usually the cops wont do anything unless they light up inside the turnstile.
What then is an effective way to get the cops interested in this health and safety issue???
Also, what's the deal with smoking at the top of the subway stairs. Is there an aloted number of feet before the first step of a subway entrance that smoking is not permitted.
Also, what does the law say about bus stops and bus shelters??? Are bus stops leagally defined and who has the authority to insure that they are clean and safe and smoke free??? Does the city paint the line on the curb or does the TA paint the line??? In other words which city agency is dropping the ball by not enforcing a smoke free area in which to wait for a bus???
three feet on any side is the rule for snow removal. Bus stops- I dont know the rule on smoking there!
The Cops- Maybe we have to contribute to the PBA (just kidding!) all you can do is tell the officer that there is someone smoking in the subway. I have seen officers give out tickets to those smoking outside of the turnstiles !
First, I'll preface my remarks by stating that I am a non-smoker. My entire family, myself included, is averse to tobacco smoke, and in particular one of my children is EXTREMELY allergic to it. Consequently, I don't tolerate cigarette (or other) smoking much of anywhere.
That being said:
I don't see what the fuss is about permitting smoking in designated portions (read: the far ends and/or the areas farthest away from the stairwells) of elevated or open cut platforms. In open platform areas people are going to smoke, regulations or no, simply because there's no one to enforce it. However, if an area is designated where smoking is permitted, most smokers are courteous enough that they will go to those areas, and will use an ash receptacle if one is provided. There will likely be far fewer cigarette butts on the platforms with this approach than with the current one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree. The problem is that the law is not clear enough for smokers to understand. That is why I would like to see it spelled out. If they have to paint a line outside a subway stairway or around a bus shelter so be it. Just so long as smokers understand where they can and cannot smoke. It should also be made clear that if you throw your butt into the street you are going to get a ticket. Lack of enforcement leads to these abuses.
Bus shelters are considered 'street furniture', and as such, open public areas. Until the nicotine nazis decide to force a law prohibiting smoking outside, on the street, it'll be allowed. Bus stops are regulated by the DOT, and those yellow lines on the curb have absolutely no signifigance, no matter who paints them (simply because, anybody could)
-Hank
PS- by my attitude, you may think I'm a smoker. I'm not; but I do think the government is infringing too much on our rights when they seek to regulate so much nowadays.
NJT has a line at Newark Penn--Smoke on the far ends of the platforms (other side of the line). I've seen the transit police walk right by smokers on the no smoking side of the line. I have told people-"other side of the line" and have gotten cussed out!I have gotten the transit police- they move for the cops and when the cop leaves they come back. I get the cops again and you know the rest... A designated smoking zone wont work because the smokers insist on smoking where and when they want to and to blazes with anyone else. It never ceases to amaze me how they are so hooked that they cant even wait till thwey leave the subway--they walk out fo the trainm with lighter in ahdn and cigarattye in the mouth ready to light! Smokers are also less productive--When I had a desk job, I did not get a 15 minute break every hour but they did!! No other form of drug addiction is as accepted as smoking. I've seen people dying of lung cancer smoking through a tracheotomy( Hole in the throat)! Snoking has killed 3 members of my immediate family(Both parents and an aunt). It is no fun watching people rot away from the inside.
Smoking in the subway--no! I dont want the second hand smoke!
What you say about the mentality of smokers is so true. Here's another example: I go to a resturant with my friends who are smokers. The waiter asks "do you want smoking or non-smoking?" thinking of my friends, I say "smoking". Now, no smoker has ever done the same for me. That is, when asked the same question, no smoker has ever though of me and said "non-smoking please." This is because smokers think only of themselves and never of the people around them. There are some who argue that smokers have rights. I might be more open to that arguement if there was a single example, in all the world, where a smoker even considered the rights of anyone but themselves! I am all for more rights for everyone, but what burns me up is the assumption, by smokers, that only they should be entitled to more rights! Sure, they'll tell you the issue is about freedom, but when it comes to the freedom of non-smokers to be just as big a jerk as the guy blowing smoke in your face, they simply won't stand for it. Why? because to them its never been about freedom, its always been about THEM.
Let's take all these dam smokers out and tie them to the third rail.
Well, even most of my SMOKING freinds refuse to sit in smoking sections. Because of the city law prohibiting smoking in restaurants that did not meet certain requirements, to meet them, most restaurants installed what I like to call 'the aquarium', a glass storefront inside the store, that seperates those killing themselves slowly from the rest of society. The smoke fills these aquariums so badly, you have to be a reall die-hard to eat in one.
As for the productivity, I agree. I once had it out with a boss who told me I couldn't sit down during my shift, by argueing that he allowed the smokers to go outside (this was a take-out Pizza Hut) and smoke whenever they felt like.
-Hank
Yes, They have their priorities all wrong. Here's another story: I was taking the bus up to Woodstock one time. In the back of the bus sitting next to me was a mother and her small boy of about 4-5 years old. The bus made a stop and the driver announced that it would be a few minutes so right away all the smokers were going to get off to smoke. The mother was one of them. The little boy begged her not to leave him on the bus by himself but the cigarettes won out. Now, at no time was the kid in any real danger but the message was clear to the boy and to everyone else that her child the second most important thing in her life.
NYCT has a "SMOKE-FREE WORKPLACE" policy. There are very stiff penalties for managers who refuse to enforce it. Since station and RTO personnel come in contact, frequently, with the public, managers (especially the station managers) who don't use police to enforce the 'No Smoking' Laws are technically in violation of TA Policy.
Now you're talking. After all, is it a law or isn't it?
What are you talking about?? The government has been regulating the rights of non smokers for years by allowing smokers to treat them like dirt. The way I see it this is a civil rights issue. Why do smokers have the right to throw thier butts in the street while I don't have the right ot throw my candy wrapper in the street???
I believe that I should have the right to be just as big a jerk as the guy who breathes smoke in my face. Who is the government to say that that guy has the right to be a jerk and I don't???
I say Power to the people. Smokers say 'power only to smokers'
Next you'll probobly tell us the government has no right to insist that dogs be on a leash. Or that its okay for people to spit by the token booth, just so long as they don't do it inside the turnstyles.
I don't mean it in that vein. The way I mean it is..(hard for me to word the sentence)
Congress is considering a bill that would make it ILLEGAL to sell, rent, or distribute violent movies, videos, games, books, etc. to minors. This can include books by many popular authors, and is tantamount to censorship. It would require that books of a violent or sexual nature (and this includes 'Lolita', by Nabakov, and 'Of Mice and Men', by Steinbeck) and is tantamount to censorship. I was exposed to all of this as a youth (which some may still consider me) I have books with pictures of bodies. I have everything that Clancy has ever written. I enjoy movies like 'Evil Dead'. I stole my first Playboy (from my dad) at 12. I have not committed a crime in my life. I did not plot to blow up my school. I did not shoot people who teased me (and believe me, I got teased something fierce) I never burned down a neighbors house. I never raped anyone.
And millions of children grow up in similar ways, and they don't do those 'bad' things either. Yet here comes Mr. Government, saying this sort of upbringing will turn me into a violent psychopath. I got news for the planet, it ain't society, it's the child and the parents. How many of those young muderers, rapists, and arsonists were Boy Scouts? How many of them worked with Dad on a Saturday morning? How many of them went on family vacations 2 or 3 times a year?
So far as I've heard, none of them, but I'm sure all the facts are unknown.
That kind in Arkansas that shot up his school. He was 12. His family taught him how to shoot a rifle before he learned to ride a bike! Did a violent movie prompt him to kill people? Would he have done such a thing if his father had taught him something besides how to use a firearm?
All this talk about V-Chips and censorship is just knee-jerk reaction to a few incidents perpetrated by persons who were brought up poorly, seriously disturbed, or both.
-Hank
I think that we agree! I think the government should be smaller and I think that it should be less involved in people's affairs.
I don't think that cigarettes or tobacco should be banned.
I don't think that anyone over 18 should be denied the right to drink or to buy cigarettes or to rent any movie or buy any book they want to. I don't think that 18 year olds should be denied a job in a resturant simply because you have to be 21 to serve alcohol. I think that people who smoke should be able to smoke as much as they want. But they should do it in the privacy of their own homes! Not in public!
I am a cat person. I don't like dogs. I don't have anything against dogs, I don't think that dogs should be banned. If someone wants to have a dog, I say "let them". If their dog wants to run around in their yard that's great. But they should be responsible enough to keep their dog out of MY yard and in public they should keep their dog on a leash.
If their dog gets out and goes into my yard, I understand, I'm not going to shoot the dog. I probobly won't even call the cops. But the standard cannot be that everyone's dog is allowed to run around loose.
That is what smokers are demanding. The right for their smoke (dog) run loose through the streets and subways and resturants and parks and beaches.
I am not against smokers or their freedom, I am however against their arrogance and their abuse of the rights of others.
My father (he of the 3 packs a day) would agree with you, only he'd change every 'smoker' reference to 'non-smoker'. While he agrees that it's a disgusting, unhealthy habit (and told me he'd kick me out of the house if I took it up when I was 12), he believes he has rights, too. He feels that the individual businesses should have the right to say whether or not to allow smoking, and all people should have the right to eat, sit, smoke, or drink whatever they want. Of course, he (like me) refuses to sit in the aquarium at local restaurants, and will instead leave the table several times during the meal to engage in his addiction.
My personal policy is this (as a person who frequents sporting events): I'll leave you alone, but you better put it out if I ask nicely.
But I don't think it has any place indoors, or in subways or subway cars, where the air doesn't circulate, or is recirculated. Outside on the street is just fine, as these areas belong to 'all the people'.
-Hank
I disagree. Just as dogs are not allowed to run around in an outdoor playground or school yard, Smoke too should not be allowed to run free. You think that the streets are free but they are not. No open alcoholic beverages are allowed on the street. Dogs must be on a leash. We are not free to litter. We must clean up after our dogs. Cigarette smoke is a dog. It litters the air. Why should non smokers have to stand in the rain while smokers huddle in the bus shelter??? Why should smokers be allowed to litter with their Butts but the rest of us should be frowned upon for throwing down a candy wraper or not cleaning up after our dogs??? Or spitting on the streets for that matter. I believe that the city is responsible to provide a safe clean and clearly designated area to wait for a bus. The United States Surgeon General says that second hand Smoke is toxic and causes cancer. The Surgeon General says nothing about littering or spitting or dog droppings. The city has an obligation to provide an environment where someone can wait for a bus without getting cancer.
Like a bus shelter, Midtown Manhattan is a confined space, so are the parks and the steps of the library or the Metropolitan. So are playgrounds and school yards. So are sidewalk cafes and doorways to public and private buildings. Are you saying that non-smokers have no right to these spaces??? Remember, every time a smoker exhales in public, the rights of a non-smoker to move freely through public streets is being violated!!! If the city wants to build a special "Dog Run" for smokers in the parks or on the street, I think that would be a great idea. But if you are not forced to put out your cigarette in public, why should I be forced to put up with your cigarette in public.
While inhaling second hand smoke may be annoying and smell disgusting, there is precious little evidence that it causes cancer. Quoting from a recent column by Walter Williams:
"The past year hasn't been a good one for the EPA -- they've faced
another stunning rebuke. Last July, U.S. District Court Judge William L. Osteen found reason to nullify the EPA's 1992 report that claimed
second-hand smoke to be a class A human carcinogen and cause of lung
cancer. He found that the EPA knowingly, willfully and aggressively put out false and misleading information. "
Dogs don't cause cancer either but still they must be on a leash. radio playing causes no health risks but isn't tollerated in well defined areas Including the Subway and the public library. This is not a matter of health but a matter of civil rights. One group, Smokers, demanding rights at the expense of another group, non smokers.
If the smoker's arguement about freedom holds up, they must also believe that they are entitled to play their radio in the library. Well non smoking is my radio and I should be entitled to play it just as smokers are entitled to play theirs. But smokers are not interested in what's fair, they are only interested in themselves. They not only want to play their raido on the subways or in the libraries of the world, but they also want to deny others the right to play their radios as well. If basic freedom is really the smoker's arguement, why does the smoker insist on denying freedom to everyone else???
In addition to smoke theres also the risk of fire, a smoldering cigarette butt in a trash can starts a fire which in a subway tunnel can be deadly PERIOD. It's disrectecful of other riders comfort and also unsafe in the event a fire was started due to someones careless act of tossing a cigarette into the trash can or landing on something combustible....
Anyone see the new posters asking us not to eat or drink on the train now? This has finally spread over from the buses.
It's always been a rule on the books, and was rarely enforced. I've been stopped getting on the SIR, but there are so few conductors, I usually see the same faces. Part of the charm, I guess; as long as I take my crap with me, they say nothing about it.
When Dinkins was running for mayor, there was a photo of a candidate (I honestly can't remeber who) on the subway with a cup of coffee, saying 'Hey look, I commute too!' There was a note in the accompannying column about how he was breaking the rules.
-Hank
Yes and let's not forget that there are vendors inside the turnstyles which sell food and drinks. They should have cops waiting by the food stand at Times Square waiting to cuff anyone buying a candy bar!
Just out of curiosity, do Subway vendors sell Cigarettes??? Chewing Tobacco??? I know they sell gum, which the city has complained about.
Food can be a problem on the subway even if passengers dispose of the trash properly. Quite frankly food smells and I don't like it. I also feel quite uncomfortable sitting next to someone squeezing pack of ketchup onto a plate of fries in thier lap, while my leg is touching theirs. Like with cigarettes, accidents will happen and I don't want to have to think about it. I must say that I drink coffee every morning on the subway. My cup has a lid and a small hole to drink from.
Another one that ticks me off is people clipping their nails on the subway. I have even seen cops doing this. It makes me want to bring my electric shaver with me in the morning and get a shave while I ride to work. I don't think there is a subway sign that says you can't to that!
I actually saw a man shaving one morning on NJT using a cordless razor. And, one Saturday afternoon about three years ago, two young women shaving their legs, with shaving cream and a disposable razor no less! (They boarded at Matawan, dressed real fancy - guess they just ran out of time before heading to the City for a night of partying. They took the seats across from the washroom, so it wasn't hard for them to clean up afterwards.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Makeup. I hate to see them applying makeup. I figure one day they'll be applying eyliner when the train goes into emergency, and they pop their eyeball with the pencil.
Worse is on the x-bus, when they decide to put on enough perfume to cover the BO of every person they encounter during the day.
-Hank
Somehow make-up doesn't seem so bad. If someone wants to poke their eye out that's fine with me. I'm more conserned about other people's doings spreading over in my direction. Perfume, now that's another matter.
Another problem I see is Bicycles, Strollers and excessively large packages.
Eating, drinking, nail-clipping, shaving, leg shaving (!), makeup application, perfume, and seat-hogs! Lo and behold, it's the "Sound Off!" East Coast Division, and I feel right at home.
"Sound Off!" is the complaints (some say the whining) column in the Metra newsletter "On the (Bi)Level." You can see the newsletter at:
http://www.metrarail.com/Bilevel/otbl0499.html
The motto on the masthead of the page is "...setting new standards of thoughtlessness, grouchiness, pettiness, elitism and self-absorption." (CHICAGO SUN-TIMES, June 12, 1994). And all of these complaints and more (talking! snoring! playing cards! reading newspapers over people's shoulders!) are read every month in this column, along with the frequent "you're riding public transit: deal with it or drive!" responses.
Don't forget my favorite -- Clueless Backpackers.
People with strollers at rush hour are much worse than those with backpacks. It seems no one wants to bother FOLDING the damned thing and holding or carrying the little brat. Instead, no matter how crowded the train, they force their way in with the open stroller (and child) and stand right in front of the door. Then, they don't move for anyone.
-Hank
Wow, I really have to say that I THOUGHT I had seen everything!!!
They weren't being indecent about it, actually - it was just rather unusual, to say the least!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How many of us are actually old enough to believe we've seen everything?
-Hank :) (definately not)
[Food can be a problem on the subway even if passengers dispose of the trash properly. Quite frankly food smells and I don't like it. I also feel quite uncomfortable sitting next to someone squeezing pack of ketchup onto a plate of fries in thier lap, while my leg is touching theirs. Like with cigarettes, accidents will happen and I don't want to have to think about it. I must say that I drink coffee every morning on the subway. My cup has a lid and a small hole to drink from.
Another one that ticks me off is people clipping their nails on the subway. I have even seen cops doing this. It makes me want to bring my electric shaver with me in the morning and get a shave while I ride to work. I don't think there is a subway sign that says you can't to that!]
Chris, I'm surprised you can go out of the house in the morning. These little things that annoy you are just a part of everyday life. You are adamant about smoking in the subway because it is dangerous; however, you freely admit to bringing scalding hot coffee onto the crowded trains. Accidents will happen, as you have said yourself. I myself would take my chances with a smoker on the platform rather than a “latte grande” carrier on the subway.
Remember this, when you start writing laws and rules that ban everything nuisance, where will it end? The next banning may be people who don't like what you are doing on the subway. Think about it, and relax a bit. You're taking life way too seriously!
BTW, I AM NOT a smoker!
Jim K.
Chicago
My problem with smoking is that it's illegal on the subway, yet the TA refuses to enforce the law. If they made a law about coffee cups It would change my lifestyle slightly and I might grumble about it for a day or two but I would comply. I would also add that I throw my container in the trash, not on the ground, another overlooked violation which smokers completely ignore. I don't EXPECT others to clean up after me. As I said in an earlier post, if the TA wants to make special enclosed areas for smoking, with ash trays provided, I'm all for it.
Got news for you, there IS a law against eating or drinking in the subway, and it's not enforced either.
-Hank
[There is a law against eating or drinking on the subway.]
No, there isn't. There is a law (or rather a "regulation") against carrying open containers of liquid, but none against eating or drinking per se, I'm pretty certain. That's why the signs ask people not to do it, instead of warning them about fines and the like.
It's not just a matter of insufficient police enforcement of anti-smoking laws. Self-enforcement is a big part as well. Many smokers are (or claim to be) hooked on the habit, so it's no surprise that many of them will try to sneak smokes where they shouldn't.
Actually, at least in my own experience, smoking on the subway isn't a terrible problem. Most of the furtive smokers I've seen, and there haven't been that many, seek out-of-the-way locations like the ends of outdoor platforms. I can't think of the last time I've seen someone smoking on a crowded platform let alone on a train.
Here in Chicago they are starting to enforce no smoking on the platform. But these obnoxious steet musicians are still playing their so called music for many unwilling audiences in the subway platforms. What is wrong with this picture?
This is an embarrasing story, but what the heck:
I gotta admit to you guys that I got alittle cocky about three years ago while on my way to a relative's in Flatbush. I occassionaly light up a cigar on weekends and was trying to light one while making my way from the platform of the #2 at Parkside Ave. to the exit gates. All of a sudden a young black kid walks up to me -- I think he's going to ask me for a light or something else -- and proceeds to whip out an NYPD SHEILD! BUSTED! This guy was the ultimate in undercover. Obviously a rookie, but dressed like all these kids, with the baggy clothes, boots and "urban attitude". I was dumbfounded and quite embarrassed since I should have known better.
I went through the motions, explaining to him that I wasn't even able to light it and was existing at the time. To no avail, he wrote me up, but did me the favor of not noting my place of employment on the ticket. He said he would write "unemployed" the reseasoning being if I was to fight it and go before a judge he'd be easier on someone out of work than a working stiff, who -- not only being finacially able to pay should -- supposedly know better.
To make a long story short, I just payed the darn thing realizing the errors of my ways.
Doug aka BMTman
If you didn't light it, it seems to me no crime has been committed. My point in all of my previous posts has never really been about smoking, it has been about the law.
JUST WHAT IS THE LAW???
1. Just which laws is the City willing to enforce???
2. Why are some people exempt from the law, (smokers who throw their butts in the street, or me with my cup of coffee on the train in the morning) while others are not exempt???
3. Are there patterns of racism, sexism, or discrimination hidden in the city's arbitrary enforcment habits???
4. Does the city's arbitrary enforcement policy carry over to more serious crimes???
5. Just which crimes does the city take seriously anyway???
6. Does the city's willingness to overlook some crimes for some people affect people's attitudes about crime and about the city and do these attitudes in turn have an affect on crime???
These are the real questions. Everyone thinks only of themselves. I drink my coffee on the train and don't care what the city has to say about it. Smokers throw their butts in the gutter and gloat about how they are getting over on the environment and the taxpayers who have to clean up after them. No one stops to consider that maybe our little conspiracies with the cops, who look the other way, might be at the expence of someone elses freedom or fortune.
Regarding your coffee on the subway, there is a rule against carrying open beverage containers. Whether that would include a cup with a small drinking hole is another matter. I don't know the answer to that. But you should keep the rule in mind.
[Every morning at Court Street there are cops standing around waititing for someone to jump the turnstyles, meanwhile there are people lighting cigarettes as they exit the turnstyles!!! What is the law on this one??? These people should wait till their on the street!!! What's more people smoke all the way down the stairs to the turnstyle and then throw their buts on the ground outside the token booth.]
I'm reasonably sure that smoking is prohibited anywhere on subway property - not just in the fare paid zone. So you're correct in saying that smokers should wait until they're in the street to light up. Of course, if the cops aren't doing anything about it (Not my job) ...
Heck, the subject line even rhymes, doesn't it?!?!
I'm going to be in NYC on Monday afternoon with time on my hands - arriving via PATH from Newark around 1:30 or so (my younger daughter will be taking the LSAT at the Hilton Gateway Center at 1 PM, and she has asked me to "escort" her there). I'll have to be back in Newark around 6:30-7 PM. I've ridden every mile of revenue service trackage already and taken most of the Transit Museum tours, so if anyone has any suggestions I'm open to them. Especially if any of the TA folks that frequent this forum will be at the controller or working the doors!
I'll check this thread through Friday noon at work and then (hopefully) over the weekend - assuming that Comcast gets my cable modem installed tomorrow afternoon. If they don't, I'll come into the office Sunday afternoon and check.
Thanks in advance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At the LA MTA site: www.mta.net, there is info about the opening of the red line extension. Its pretty interesting. How are their station's so much more elaborate than any recent extensions in NYC.
"How are their station's so much more elaborate than any recent extensions in NYC."
Because lots of people in New York already ride the subway and don't need to be convinced that the subway in general is the best travel option. Give them a route that goes where they want to go, and they will ride it.
On the other hand, L.A. hasn't had a subway for decades (the old Pacific Electric's Hollywood Subway) and is very car-dependent. Many people there believe subways are dingy, dark, and unsafe. Therefore, elaborate stations with lots of artwork and color are needed to entice people out of their cars and convince them that subways aren't as bad as they think they are.
Actually, there is a whole segment of the city's population that goes through great lengths to avoid the subway. Whether they can be lured back is another matter. A lot of it is image and ego -- to a certain group of people, winners ride in cars and losers ride in subways.
goes to show how PLASTIC people are in LA.....
I can kind of understand that. It looks better to your date if you drive her home, not escort her back by subway! Also when you own a car, it's more impressive, a concrete example of your status. Any joe (nerd, geek, loser, etc.) can ride the subway, there's nothing impressive about that.
[ Because lots of people in New York already ride the subway and don't need to be convinced that the subway in general is the best travel option. ]
True, but take a look at the Jubilee Line Extension in London. Its stations are very elaborate, yet London's subways has been around for a very long time. I think it's a matter of pride.
But even if you want to take the subway, unless it goes door-to-door, then what? Have you ever tried to walk in LA? NOBODY walks in LA.
Most people from LA would die if they ever got more than 20 feet from their car. Kinda like a fish out of water. Actually, if you ever have a friend from LA over, try it, it's fun to watch their expressions when you bag the car at a commuter rail station, take the train in, take the subway, and walk a bit. Of course, I'll take walking and extra block over the air quality madness over there. Who are they kidding about selling 10% 0 emissions cars by like 2005 anyway? Nobody wants and electric car, and certainly not californians..
Amen to that! My older daughter is married to a native Californian (they live in Las Vegas now) and he won't walk to the corner store! He has absolutely no comprehension of my love for steel wheels on steel rails, and isn't quite sure what to make of his son's fascination with them either (hey, I know the answer to that one, he inherited it from our side of the family!), but he does love the Lionel train I gave my grandson for Chanukah a year and a half ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am speaking as a resident of Los Angeles.
I would trade the jazziness of the Los Angeles Red Line Subway with the functionality of the New York subway any day. The MTA here has pissed away millions of dollar on the Red Line and its elaborate stations. The money would have been better spent on more lines going more places in this far-flung metropolis.
When the IND was built in New York, it was was stated that the people "didn't get what they paid for, but they paid for what they got". Emphasis on paid. That goes triple for the situation here in Los Angeles.
All the new BART (San Francisco Bay Area) stations are huge and elaborate too. I don't know why they're bigger, but they suck up a lot more money than the older, simpler stations.
You can see pictures of the stations that haven't been built yet at
http://www.bart.org/westbay/station/index.htm
I took Amtrak from Santa Barbara down to LA on Saturday for opening day of the Hollywood redline subway extenstion. The five new stations on the hollywood extension all have unique themes and are rather Hollywood. The station at Hollywood and Vine is the most impressive. The ceiling is coverd with hundreads of blue film reals, support colums become palm trees with metal green leaves on the ceiling. Two huge movie projectors are on display. The passage way to the street is somewhere between Las Vegas and a grand hotel.
Yes, the red line was very expensive to build. I relized something interesing while talking to one of the Metro employes. The billions they spent on the subway were for saving the hollywood neighborhood (and others) as much as it was for transportation. Before the redline, Hollywood Bvd. was a seedy area going down hill. It was were Hue Grant went for a hooker. The Pantages theater was was a porn house. The area was over run by gangs.
People like to complain about the money waisted on fancy stations. Bottom line is: Building boaring plain stations would save a couple percent on the bill, that's about all.
The biggest draw back back of the redline is that there is a lot of LA it doesn't go to. LA is more spread out than New York, that is why subways will never be as feasable in LA.
The redline is very clean and safe (no graffiti, not even scratching). It has to be to attract people out of their cars. I do wonder how long it will be before someone smashes one of those projectors or starts snagging film reals that are at arms length.
I took a buch a pictures I hope to post soon. And also a note about BART. BART has the distict advantage of going a lot of places. I don't know how the SFO extension stations will look, but the other exetenstion stations opened it the last couple of years are nice, but still functional. They are nowhere near as far out as the hollywood stations. BART stations still look like subway stations, The hollywood stations look more like disneyland.
All this time in sub talk and we haven't even related stories that had humor......any funny happenings involving train crews and passangers would be welcome don't ya think........
There was a story told in T/O school car to us pertaining to a train crew at Brighton Beach over a decade ago. Apparently as a joke, a train operator was escorted into with cab by his conductor wearing very dark glasses and a blind man's walking stick. Unfortunately the folks at the terminal didn't see it as funny, nor did the folks who gave the crew days in the street, although it was told the arbitrator was snickering as he heard the case from the union.
The funniest thing that happened to me car equipment wise was on a train of R-30. I was cutting out a door to extinguish a fault light. When I cut it out, the adjacent panel's fault light illuminated. When I cut that one out I had another and another until I cut out all sixteen doors and still had the guard light. oh well.
One of my favorites is the story of the two homeless persons, a man and a woman who shall we say, were smitten - then bitten - one day. It seems that several years ago, 'love' found these two homeless individuals while living in the tunnels around Essex St. It the throws of passion, they placed an old mattress between the running rails of what they thought was an un-used tunnel. Unfortunately what they mistakenly thought was the earth was moving (in orgasmic proportions) was, in fact, a J train traversing the supposedly abandoned rails, in service. The female member of the couple suffered a bump on the head while the male lost the toes of one foot (which he carelessly forgot to move from the rail) when the train interrupted their moment.
For the more skeptical among us, I assure you that this incident actually took place. I had the 'Train Trouble Report' framed but it mysteriously disappeared a few years ago whenI moved to Concourse Yard.
Whenever there is an incedent involving a person being runover by one of the trains, it must be shopped for an inspection.
While I was at Coney Island Mant. shop in 1989 a funny thing took place.
The rookie car inspector is often the man assigned to do this gruesome task. The old hands in the shop found it funny to tease the new guy whenever these things occured.
One of the older men had a manequin arm in his locker waiting for an event such as this. He coated it with ketchup and secretly stuck it up in the truck of the lead car.
Well the rookie came out from under the train screaming and white as a ghost. Cruel and funny yet.
We did the same with a dolls head, eyes wide open, on top of a traction motor. The scream echoed through 207th St. shop. That was around 16 years ago and the car inspector on whom the prank was played, still will not speak to me - even though he's worked for me, on and off, for years.
When ENY Master Tower took over switch control at Metropolitan Ave. terminal, a small model board was installed in the dispatchers office. One of the motormen (recently retired) confiscated a wad of steel wool from a car cleaner and shaped a large rat out of it and placed it atop the model board. That was the initiation rite for any new dispatcher assigned there! A few months ago, the office was being re-painted. The dispatcher on duty had a good laugh when the painter discovered our mascot, screamed, and jumped off the ladder toward the door. After that, the rat was moved next to a trap on the floor by the refrigerator, head broken off, with the contents of a ketchup pack sprinkled all around.
That wasn't miss Flores was it? She's too nice for that.
I saw a huge rat on the platform at Franklin Av. on the Fulton IND. Now that platform has no columns, and no benches (what's that say about the neighborhood?) so the rat had no where to go and hide.
My train comes in, and I open the doors. All the people getting off had scared the rat. Now the little guy is running back and forth, up and down the platform, with no where to go! He runs onto the train, and every one gets up and stars screaming, and running! I grab the trusty Shoe Paddle/door stop/seat/window prop/foot rest/attitude adjuster/rat swatter. So I run after him and chase him down and he jumps to the track in between cars. Man did I laugh.
No, the dispatcher in question was on the midnite, she was there AM's on Mon. & Tues. I mentioned once before of being stuck behind a B train last year at 79 St. because a rat was riding in one of the cars. Probably got on at Stillwell because the garbage is kept under the B tracks. A cop used his stick to make lots of noise to scare it out of the car.
I was working the IRT Flatbush Line on New Year's eve a few years ago and my north motor at the terminal had this huge rat munching on some debris on the floor. When I boarded the train it ran off but the persistant little bugger decided he wasn't getting a "no lunch" today. Being my last trip, I isolated the car just before leaving the terminal and reopened at Atlantic for crowds. Next stop Nevins. BANG BANG. At Chamber's Street I heard some screaming, some laughter. Finally at 34th Street a TSS knocked on the door and asked about the rat. I sighed and told him "thats the new superintendant". He grabbed his shoe paddle and the rat went to see the ball drop.
Erik that was scandalous!
As most of you know, I consider myself a professional. And as such, I control my train to a degree, that I never run ahead of schedule.
One day I come into 36th Street and 4th Av in Brooklyn on the N. The tower has the holding lights lit. I pull out my hand written copy of the timetable (getting a printout is like pulling teeth) and check. Of course I'm exactly on time.
So I sit.....And sit......And sit.
After three minutes the genius Dispatcher in the tower gets on the radio. But not to me, no. To the command center.
"Command: this is Murphy tower. The 9:54 Nancy Astoria is at 36th Street and he's not moving."
So now those idiots join in:
"9:54 November Astoria, come in to control. 9:54, if you have a problem, let Control know."
Of course there were several choice expletives I had for them. But I maintained my professionalism. So I said this instead:
"Yes Control, there's a problem. It's those three yellow lights on the ceiling."
Silence............
Very quietly the holding lights went out. There was nothing further said on the radio. I flew down Fourth Av. and made up my time on the Sea Beach line. Very easy considering the lack of ridership there.
My favorite story:
I was working a booth in Brooklyn and two punks asked if they could ride for free since they had no money (supposedly). I had a tv monitor near the booth. As I like to do, I bluffed stating that I have police in the station (Could be true- the police like to hide so they nab the farebeaters). Number one said there were no cops and started to jump. Meanwhile, number two looked at the monitor and saw what he thought was a cop on the platform. Number one then won an olympic high jump gold medal jumping back over the wheel and both fled the station.
I dont know if there was a cop in the station, but what he saw was the "Conductor is located here" sign with a picture of a conductor! When a cop did stop by the booth I told the cop and both of us had a good laugh.
UTC meets at the Masonic Hall at 71 W 23rd St, NYC, NY 19th Floor (Near 6th Ave-Ave of the Americans). The next meeting is 19 Jun 99 at 6:00 with show at 7:15. Door fee $5.00, membership $30.00 per year. Web site is http://members.aol.com/glenn6398/utc.html.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Hi,
Yesterday I looked at the ERA website, which is
http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era/home.html
It seems that this website has been shut down or canceled.
What happened?
Thanks a lot.
Chaohwa
Guess he forgot to pay his AOL bill.. It has nothing to do with us here at www.nycsubway.org and he didn't send us any informational mail.
-Dave
Keep in mind that's the NY Division Website. The website is maintained by a member over in the Twin Cities. The National ERA lacks a website and should have one.
Phil Hom
ERA3620
Stafford VA
Robert Wukich, NYD-ERA's Webmaster, joined the military a few months ago. We should have the website back up shortly under a new Webmaster, with a different URL. We'll publish it when available.
BTW, ERA's e-mail address is era@juno.com.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Does anyone know the latest on the arrival of the first R142 and will it have a red nose as in the transit museum mock-up. If they do can I suggest the nick name of "Robin" for the new units or does anyone have another name (I hope that everyone knows that a Robin is a small bird with a red front - at least it is here in England).
Delivery of first set to NYCT is currently scheduled for November 1999. This is to be followed by at least 6 months of testing before it goes in service.
While researching an answer I came accross some interesting information for the year 1965.
It was a year of bad news and good news.
The bad news was the last run of the D's on July 23 and the unrebuilt B's on June 25.
The good news was the return of the R-11's to service in early June on the #3 West End Line.
Also to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the BMT 4th Avenue Subway and the opening of the IRT Steinway Tunnels they held a Transit Day at the New York World's Fair. All three museum trains were placed in service that day;IRT Lo-VM's 5286,5290,5443,5466 and 5483, B-Types 2390-1-2 and Q Type 1622 A-B-C.
There also was the Great BMT Flood of August 22 where there was so much water in Dekalb Avenue Station that Noah was called back to help run the trains.
On November 9 there was of course the massive Northeast Blackout which stranded many trains in the tunnels.
Yes it was quite an interesting year.
Larry,Redbird R33
We should start a compilation for that. This day in Transit History.
I think joe korman already does that, see www.quuxuum.org/~joekor
-Dave
I went to the Worlds Fair on the day of the flood. I remember taking the train to the Botanic Gardens and walking over to Franklin.
They ran 6 or 8 car trains up Franklin that day.
On the way home everything was back to normal.
One of the things the flood did was to re-establish (albeit briefly) the #7 Brighton-Franklin Service even though the trains carried QB or QT signs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
what caused the flood (I'm only 18- I never heard of it)?
David: The flood occurred in the early morning hours of Sunday,August 22,1965. A watermain broke on Willoughby St near Lawrence St flooding both Lawrence St and Dekalb Av and cutting off all BMT service between the Southern Division and Manhattan. Service over the Bridge from the Brighton Line was not restored until Monday Afternoon, service from 4 Avenue to the Bridge was restored on Tuesday and finally the Montague St Tunnel was re-openned on Wednesday morning.
Larry,RedbirdR33
July 21, 1965, as I've noted ad nauseum, was a red-letter date in my life. My love affair with the subway started on that memorable day as that N train of shiny new R-32s complete with blue doors and "57th St." signs backlit in green took us from 36th St. in Brooklyn to 34th St. and Broadway. It was a lot cooler on the 86th floor of the Empire State Building than it was at street level.
And to think the Triplexes rode off into the sunset two days later when we left for home and I didn't see them...
Courtesy of the ERA NYD Bulletin here's the car requirements for the AM Rush for the Fall of 1964.
IRT #1 43 x 8 = 344, #2 32 x 9 = 288, # 3 25 x 9 = 225
#4 28 x 10=280 #5 43 x 10= 430 #6 44 x 10 = 440
#7 37 x 11=407 3 Av El 11 x 5 = 55, Bowling Green Stl 1 x 2=2
42 St Stl 2 x 3 and 1 x 4 = 10
IND A 38 x 10=380 BB 10x8 and 6x6=116, CC 24x8=192
D 40 x 10=400 E 40 x 10 = 400 F 24 x 10 = 240
GG 18 x 8= 144 HH 1 x 6 and 1x4 = 10
BMT #1 Exp 17 x8 & 5 x 6=`166 #1 Lcl 21 x 8 and 7 x 6=210
#2 30 x 8=240 #3 Exp 15x8 & 9x6=174
#3 Lcl 7x8 & 4x7 & 1x6=90 #4 Exp 18x8=144
#5 1x2=2 #7 3x3=9 #10 7x6=42
#11 8x6=48 #14 8x5 & 6x6=76
#15 10x8 & 6x6=116 #16 19x6=114
It might be interesting to see how this compares to today's service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I can give you a few off the top of my head:
Today's 'G' is 12 X 6 (75') = 72 (actually a reduction of 1/3 in # of trains)
Today's 'F' is 46 X 8 (75') an increase of 91% over 1964
Today's 'E' is 26 X 10 (60') a reduction of 35% in the # of trains
If I remember correctly, the F of those years ran only to 2nd/Houston or B'way/Laf, thus the figures would be much more comparable if one could calculate the trains in service only to those terminals. I believe that as others have pointed out, in general the current service levels are shamefully skeletal.
Given today's change in length of the routes, ie no E to Rockaway, how do the levels compare?
The G gives you a pretty good idea of the comparative services on that line as it has not changed since 1964. If you flip-flop the E & F from 1964 you can get a pretty good idea of a comparrison too. E from 179th St to Far Rock (then) vs the F train from 179th St to Stillwell (today). By the same token (no pun intended) compare the F fron 179th St. to Houston St. to the E from Parsons/Archer to World Trade Center.
< BMT #1 Exp 17 x8 & 5 x 6 >
I was interested by that number. One day, probably more like 1961, I stood on Albemarle Road overpass, noted the numbers on the first southbound Triplex that came through and counted trains until that Triplex passed me again southbound. The answer: 17 trains!
A difficult way to determine car requirements.
The 5x6 in the AM would have been the Banker's Specials.
Thanks for noticing that. I knew there were six car trains but I didn't know they were the ones assigned to the Nassau-Brighton Service. Of course the 8 car train actually refers to four D-type units which were always counted as two cars for car requirements.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In the 4 star final NY Daily News Friday June 11, page 45, is a small article about The Fun Pass will be much easier to find now that the TA has begun installing the first wave of more than 1,000 MetroCard vending machines in subway stations, officials say.
After the Folks of SubTalk read the article, your fun thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Well it would make the cards better to find. I know that every time I want to get one I always have to hunt down a store that sells one. But once these machines are in place on every station than what the point of having a token booth. There would be no need for one and that would take jobs away from many people.
"There would be no need for [a token booth] and that would take jobs away from many people."
Why do so many people presume this? I don't work for any transit agency, but I would bet any sum that a Station Agent, or whatever the position is called, would say that there are many duties to his/her job other than selling tokens, cards, etc.. These duties haven't been replaced by a machine.
I've pointed this out before, but when Chicago put card machines in every station, the station agents were not made redundant. They answered the travel questions ("How do I get to...?") that they always have. Also, because they could and now HAD TO leave the confines of the token booth, they walk around the station looking for maintenance problems and helping new passengers operate the card machines.
And besides, why is getting rid of jobs automatically bad? Companies should not cut jobs without carefully thinking through all the figures and all the implications, but economic expansion has mainly come from new technology and techniques that were initially condemned as solely "job killers". But if new machines simply eliminated jobs without creating jobs elsewhere, as many believe, then comparing the improvements in technology from, say, 1750 to 1950 would mean that nearly every able-bodied person should now be unemployed.
To take the "save jobs!" argument to its inefficient extreme, the job performed by 1 tunnel-boring machine can be performed by 10 steam shovel operators, or 1000 men with shovels -- or 10,000 men with teaspoons!
John- you are so right. Even if there were machines in every station( there wont be) **every** station will have at least one 24 hour booth and yes, we will still sell tokens and farecards.
But wouldn't handling money eliminate the ability to leave the booth and assist passengers with machines? I've heard everywhere else that agents would no longer need to handle money. The biggest example would be using the machine for someone else.
Good question. There will be a person in the booth and a person outside. The person outside may be assigned to more than one station.
MVM won't be the total elimination of token booths or the Station Agent. The people staffing booths will now have more customer service duties in addition to current responsibilities. instead of mainly handling cash and doing paper work more time will be for servicing PEOPLE...
I just sat down to read the messages on this board today, and I had the TV on TNT (Chips), and I see a commercial that takes place in the subway. I can tell from the ceiling vents and windows that it was inside an R-27/30, and it looked real enough. The people were using cellphones, and the train got stuck and then started up again. (I think it was a cellphone commercial). This is definitely new.
So what did they do, use one of the cars in garbage service? Or could it have been one of the cars sold for movies?
It's a Motorola commercial, and I presume they want to make viewers believe it takes place on the 7.
If you look closely at the commercial, you get to see a piece of the destination sign reading "Tim..." presumably as in Times Square. Further, the footage seems to take place above ground. The only lines terminating @ Times Square are the 7 and the S (Grand Central/Times Square), and the latter never gets to see daylight during revenue work. So, that leaves the 7 as the "imitated" line.
I coulda sworn it was an R33WF. The badly painted ceiling, the fans, the windows, the Tim... destination sign....
-Hank
No, it's an R27 or R30 all right. Too wide to be an R33WF.
Wayne
Yeah, and look at the ceiling vents. They are square, like R-27-38, not "I" shaped like the IRT cars.
I saw that sign reading "Times Sq", and was looking to see which side of the window the sign box was, and how many windows were together, but the different shots were flashing by too fast. Is it possible that the B div cars had "Times Sq."? (as a Broadway short turn).
Otherwise, they probably filmed part of it in a 27, and part in an IRT car. (Didn't they do something like this in one of the subway movies a couple of years ago? They figure "Noone will know".
I also saw that it looked outdoors, but they could create that illusion with special sun lamps.
Just saw the commercial again. Definately NOT a WF car.
-Hank
Not to start a [hostile] discussion, Hank, but I think the car used in the commercial had double-hung windows and not the picture windows with the top quarter swinging inwards to open, a la R33WF. Then again, I may be wrong...
There is a description on the LACMTA official website of the opening festivities for the Red Line subway extension to Hollywood. The address is:
http://www.mta.net/DestinationHollywood/calendar.htm
Some of the more, ahem, *unusual* points:
* 30-foot inflatible replica of John Travolta’s character in "Battlefield Earth," now filming;
* L. Ron Hubbard Museum exhibit;
* Justine (back-up singer to Brandy);
* Continuous DJ entertainment [at several stations];
* Neil Norman and his Cosmic Orchestra with Tim Russ [Tuvok from "Star Trek: Voyager"], themes from "Star Trek" and "Voyager";
* Dae Woo auto display.
To steal a line from a Hollywood classic: "I don't think were in Kansas anymore!" Or to paraphrase an adline: "These aren't your father's subway opening ceremonies!"
The "DaeWoo auto display" is especially odd. If you're the (L.A.) MTA, you're trying to get people to leave the cars at home and take the new subway. So, obviously, the best partner for advertising deals would be car companies. HELLO!?!
I'd like to see what New York residents(drivers, really) think of this.
Yesterday, I went on a class trip to NYC(my fifth trip there in as many months).
First, we had to take our bus from Battery Park to the Metropolitan Museum of Art on 86th Street. I'm pretty sure you could take the FDR up to as far as 96th St I believe and drive down 5th instead of taking Church St, 6th Avenue, 14th St and 3rd Avenue(we started off at 11:20 and got to the museum at 12:13). Would the FDR have been faster?
Also, on the return trip home, we took the Manhattan Bridge, the BQE and Gowanus Expwys to the Verrazano Bridge, across Staten Island to the Garden State Pkwy. Would the Holland Tunnel have gotten us to I-95(we were coming from the South St. Seaport) and been a faster alternative?
I say this because we missed 3 items of our trip because the drivers took the LONG route(two of the three drivers actually admitted they didn't know their way around the city or even the NJ highways and interstates!!!!!!!) and got back to Philly 3 hours late!
The FDR probably would have been faster, but I don't think buses are allowed on the FDR. Fast only counts if they entire bus gets there and I imagine there's a low bridge or two which might have sheared off the top of your bus.
Taking the Holland Tunnel is more direct, but can have tremendous (45 minute or more) backups during middays and the evening rush. If your driver had heard a traffic report advising of a long delay, the roundabout way through Brooklyn is faster.
I don't know why he wouldn't have taken the Battery Tunnel to Brooklyn. This would have spared you the trip uptown to get the Manhattan Bridge as well as the BQE -- both can be time swallowers.
And why you'd get on the Garden State Parkway is a mystery to me. Both bridges from Staten Island to NJ (the Goethals and the Outerbridge) provide a nearly direct feed onto the NJ Turnpike (I-95).
Hopefully none of the kids got sick after three hours extra on the bus.
No one got really sick was the bathroom was a popular destination.
We finally left Manhattan just after 5. It took about 10 minutes to get from the Seaport to the BQE(and about 30 minutes from there to the Verrazano Bridge).
BTW- I of course made sure I took the subway, even though I wasn't supposed to (only the N from City Hall to Canal St. My friends said "There goes Steve and his trains again"). I also saw the B and a train of R-40M's or R-42's on the Q, and the F and G over Smith/9th(excuse the language, but it looked damn high up!).
Well, let's see....depending on what time you left, the 'long way' through SI was best. As for buses on the FDR, they're allowed only from 23st and south.
-Hank
Yes, your FDR route is correct but not necessarily faster. It depends on the time of Day. Because 5th Avenue is in the middle and cross town traffic is a real problem you might have spent a lot of time trying to get over to 5th From the FDR. The route you took is probobly not the best either but the Met from anywhere is a tall order in the day time.
As for your return. You might have gotten to I-95 faster by way of the Holland Tunnel, but the route through Staten Island is at least on the way to Philadelphia. In other words you picked up I-95 further South by taking Verranzano. Which is better is hard to say. It depends on the traffic and the time of day. The BQE-Gowanus is probobly the worst road in America. While the Holland tunnel can be a nightmare at rush hour and can feed into the Nightmare which is North Jersey. And land you on I-95 (the second worst road in America) several exits prior to where you would have gotten it coming off of Staten Island.
Might I suggest taking the train next time??? I wonder if AMTRACK has group or student rates???
2 points-
1. The driver never even hit I-95 for the ENTIRE return trip. We took the Garden State Pkwy(and ended up in Ocean County, NJ on the complete opposite side of the state from the Ben Franklin Bridge, which leads directly into Center City Philadelphia.
2. We couldn't have taken Slamtrak because complaints were made about just the $40 the trip cost and surely it would cost more than that.
The bus ride in the city was a nightmare. If I ever get the choice, I will never drive in Manhattan. I don't see why we couldn't take the Lexington IRT to 86th Street and walked to 5th (we couldn't even be in groups less than four just because it was NYC, so forget the subway:))
You are very wise. No one should ever drive to Manhattan!!! I am reminded of a story about a guy from New Jersey who drove his car off the George Washington Bridge. As the car was sinking to the bottom of the river, instead of getting out to swim to safety, he started honking his horn and cursing New York for not paving over the river so that HE could drive there.
Another though for your next trip might be to take the bus part of the way (that's most convenient) and parking and then getting on NJ Transit to Penn Station. If they offer any kind of group or student rate that might be cheaper than taking Amtrack all the way from Philly.
The driver never even hit I-95 for the ENTIRE return trip. We took the Garden State Pkwy(and ended up in Ocean County, NJ on the complete opposite side of the state from the Ben Franklin Bridge, which leads directly into Center City Philadelphia.
Ouch! What'd he do? Pick up I-195 to get back to the Turnpike or (you gotta be kidding) take the GSP to the Atlantic City Expressway?
--Mark
I don't know if this is why, but there is something rather confusing about the NJ Turnpike. It seems that the Turnpike is I-95 about as far south as Exit 10 in Edison. Then I-95 ceases to exist, until it picks up again somewhere north of Philadelphia.
Someone once explained this to me, but I've forgotten the explanation. Anyone here know it?
There's an uncompleted gap of I-95. I-95 was to go west and multiplex with I-287 for a few miles before breaking off. There there would be a wye with I-287, I-95 and an I-695. 95 would proceed southwest, passing wealthy Mercer and Somerset county towns (Do I need to explain the rest?). Outside of Trenton, currently, I-295 along the curve around the city becomes I-95 and enters PA via a free bridge over the river. That point where I-95 becomes I-295 was where I-95 was supposed to come in.
Thanks -- that's a much better explanation than what I was originally told.
As I recall, once he realized his error, he made his way back to the Atlantic City Expwy(NJ Highway 42) until he reached I-76.
There you can choose between taking 76 across the Walt Whitman Bridge into South Philly or the North-South Freeway(I-676) to the Ben Franklin Bridge and Vine St. Expwy.
He took 676(like any responsible but lost bus driver should do).
But like I said, we were only on 95 for the trip TO NYC.
I would travel on the NJT (I95) to exit 7 (get gas) and follow the side road to I295. I295 joins I76 and spilts. You can get Philly from here.
On the NY area side, I go NJT to exit 10. Take the Outerbridge to SI, go across the VN into Brooklyn to the BQE. This way I skip the Holland.
Phil Hom
ERA3620
First, we had to take our bus from Battery Park to the Metropolitan Museum of Art on 86th Street. I'm pretty sure you could take the FDR up to as far as 96th St I believe and drive down 5th instead of taking Church St, 6th Avenue, 14th St and 3rd Avenue(we started off at 11:20 and got to the museum at 12:13). Would the FDR have been faster?
It may have been IF there was no traffic on the FDR drive. However, I believe there is a bus restriction north of 42nd Street. SO the 3rd Ave alternative wasn't such a bad one.
Also, on the return trip home, we took the Manhattan Bridge, the BQE and Gowanus Expwys to the Verrazano Bridge, across Staten Island to the Garden State Pkwy. Would the Holland Tunnel have gotten us to I-95(we were coming from the South St. Seaport) and been a faster alternative?
I saw in a subsequent thread that the time it took you to get to the BQE from downtown was about 10 minutes and then another 30 to the Verrazano. That actually isn't too bad. If it were up to me, I'd probably have taken the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel, which would have saved you 15 minutes for sure (assuming there wasno traffic in the tunnel). And going through Staten Island via the Outerbridge Crossing to NJ is pretty efficient, too, so I pretty much agree with that. It enabled you to pick up I-95 further south and avoid possible delays on the Turnpike south of exit 14A (there are sometimes exiting delays for the Goethals at exit 13.)
--Mark
Starts 7am on 6/21/1999; Blaze Magazine MetroCard ath these stations (I have grouped stations to save room)
145: ABCD
137: 1
135: 23
125: 19456ABCD
116: 236
West 4: ABCDEFQ
Broadway-Lafayette/Bleecker:BDFQ6
Eastern Parkway IRT: 23
Franklin Ave: 2345
Clinton Washington: ACG
Utica : AC34
Church: DQ
Hoyt/Schermerhorn: ACG
Bergen: FG
161: BDQ
Fordham: BD4
Burnside:4
Hunts Point :6
149/3av: 25
167: BD4
170:4
Jamaica/Van Wyck: E
Sutphin( Archer):EJZ
23/Ely- Court Square: EFG
Queens(Boro) Plaza: EFGNR7
33rd Rawson:7
SOURCE: Official AFC Bulletin
Thanks for the helpful info.!
I played hookie from work today (e.g. a vacation day) and went up to Seashore to be Dispatcher of the day. In addition to beautiful weather(!) it was a great transit day. One of our frequent SubTalk contributors came up to visit (I'll let him identify himself), and he got a tour of all the NYC fleet, plus the chance to operate a streetcar and a PCC. Hopefully others of you will have the chance to visit the trolley museum of your choice soon! Seashore's 5-1/2 hours from New York, but if you can't visit us, there's Branford, Warehouse Point, TMNY, Baltimore, DC,... take your pick!
Sounds like a fun field trip! Why do you differentiate between streetcars and PCCs? I thought PCCs were a kind of streetcar, like CLRVs. I don't think they come under the classification of light rail vehicle as they are predate the term, and are far too heavy because they were built out of steel.
- Robert
PCC cars are basicaly a technology package. The first cars were indeed streetcars where the specification convered the running gear and the bodies but there were also many PCC rappid transit cars.
The PCC streetcars are between 34,000 and 38,000 lbs depending on the builder and the equipment. PCC rappid transit cars are closer to 50,000 lbs dependig on the system that used them.
The term light rail is a confusing. It came from the weight of the rail at first but that definition has long since quit being relevant.
Streetcar systems were built with 70 to 100 lb rail. Electric interurbans used 100 to 113 or higher.
Light rail as we know it today can be distiguished from rappid transit because the cars use overhead wire and not a 3rd rail, can be boarded from a low level stop (not allways true anymore) May be run in single or multiple units and can operate in mixed traffic, pedestrial malls or on exclusive right of way.
Most of the same applies to streetcars. Some of the distiction was to make like rail appear to be modern, but the exclusive right of way makes light rail more practical to provide service than the older systems with extensive street running in mixed traffic.
The CLRV and ALRV's will fit either definition. The name isn't as important as the ride.
The only comment that I'll add to Joe's fine reply is that "StreetCars" in the early days (early 1900's) ran on the street, some of the first on dirt roads with rails down them.
In the 30s' the street car industry was in deep trouble. The Presidents' Conference Commision (yes Wash. D.C.) came up with a faster, lighter, easier to maintain, modern looking design, the PCC. Three mfg. made 5,000 into the 50s. There were a couple of other designs for the "interurban" market, e.g. the Bullet, one in Philly has lasted in various forms to today.
Over time streetcars that ran on streets with all those new fangled autos became more & more a problem, and got bus-substituted. So what we're left with is MOSTLY streetcars/trolleys that run on private ROW.
NYC was the exception, Mayor La Guardia hated them, and may have been infulenced by the rubber tire & bus mfg. Anyhow NYC streetcars died an early death :-( I happen to work for a trolley company that put buses on all of its' routes in the mid/late 30s except the Queensboro Bridge line that lasted until it was the last trolley in NYC in 1957.
P.S. Newark NJ is another exception, locally. Its' "City Subway" is served by 1930s' PCC, but soon they too will be replaced by LRV.
Mr PCC-t__:^)
The Presidents' Conference Commision (yes Wash. D.C.) came up with a faster, lighter, easier to maintain, modern looking design, the PCC.
I always thought the PCC abbreviation was shortened from the Electric Railway Presidents' Conference Committee (ERPCC), which was a "consortium" of the heads of various electric railways looking to get people back on the streetcar by coming up with an all-new streamlined design. I don't think the office of the US President had anything to do with this.
--Mark
[The Presidents' Conference Commision (yes Wash. D.C.)]
vs.
[Electric Railway Presidents' Conference Committee (ERPCC), which was a "consortium" of the heads of various electric railways ...]
I don't know about the Electric Railway part, but thanks for correcting ... It was a committee vs. a commision and it was a group of railway folks vs. politians.
One of which was Dr. Thomas Conway, Jr. who very passionately believed that inter and intra city mass transit could be fixed and made to work profitably just as it had done in the early 1900s'. He was influencial in the design of a number of interurban cars in Chicago (Red Devil) & Philly (Bullet)
No, I'm not that much of a buff ... I found an article about him in a 1992 issue of Scale Model Traction & Trolleys Quarterly which I obtained because it contains another article about where all the NYC troleys went to/came from.
Mr t__:^)
The bulk of the development work for the PCC took place in Brooklyn. ERPCC leased carhouse space from B&Q Transit and operated two test cars over the system to validate some of the ideas proposed. Brooklyn also took delivery of the first 100 car order from St. Louis Car. While that order was being constructed Boston ordered 1 car for test purposes and that car was diverted from the Brooklyn Order. To replace it, Brooklyn ordered a single car from Clark Equipment, which was built to a unique design, and was the only car built by Clark. All Brooklyn cars had GE's control system. Another single car ordered by Pittsburgh was the first to have Westinghouse Controls and also the first to be delivered to the operator. After 1940, the development of the PCC focused onWashington, St. Louis and Boston where the post-war and 1949 designs developed.
Car 1000 built by the Clark Equiptment Company now redides at the Trolley Museum of New York in Kingston.
Larry,RedbirdR33
And car 1001, mfg by St. Louis Car Co. for Brooklyn & Queens Ry, is at Branford (Shoreline).
Also, thanks you Gerry for the additional detail I enjoyed reading it.
Mr t__:^)
So, are the PCCs on the Newark City Subway "streetcars" or "rapid transit cars", using the weight criterion Joe M mentions?
There was a fine article in the April '99 issue of Railpace, by Matthew W. Nawn. I'll lift a couple of comments to try & answer your question:
- Once 800 miles of trackage for 1500 trolley cars (not all PCCs)
- Route #7 first opened 1935 in Canal bed, PCCs added '54
- PCCs mfg. by St. Louis Car Co. 46.5', 55 seats
[So, are the PCCs on the Newark City Subway "streetcars" or "rapid transit cars", using the weight criterion Joe M mentions?]
Sorry don't know, but am visiting them 6/22 with a few friends on a "Field Trip" at 6 PM before they are gone forever.
If someone else doesn't supply the answer, tell me what to look for.
The newark PCC cars were built as streetcars and continue to be streetcars even though they have lived a long productive life in the subway. The application is a light rail application like the boston green line or shaker heights in Cleveland that both used to run PCC Streetcars before moving on to "LRV's".
I think the Newark cars were build for the Twin Cities in MN in the late 40's (47,49??) There are other people here who know much more about the Newark cars than I do though. One of them found it's way back to Mpls. from Newark via Cleveland.
PCC rappid transit cars would be like the Chicago 6000 series cars, MBTA 0548-0587, PRRCo, New York 1206-1229 & H&MRRco1234-1249 (1957) (Are these the red or blue birds you reffer to?) PATH 600-723 & 100-181, Cleveland 201-270 & 101-118
[I think the Newark cars were build for the Twin Cities in MN in the late 40's (47,49??) There are other people here who know much more about the Newark cars than I do though. One of them found it's way back to Mpls. from Newark via Cleveland.]
Again from the Railpace article ... in 1953 NJ purchased 30 PCCs from Twin City Rapid Transit Co ... two cars were (later) sold to Cleveland ... these (two) have since found their way back to Minneapolis ...
Mr t__:^)
This car is the only active work motor R-22 with its original WABCo A-3, 2-CY-3B compressor unit. It was seen on Friday, June 11th, coming off the West End Line headed north at 36th Street. The consist was N-R-22#37460 ex 7460 (modified with WABCo D-4-S comp.), R-74 Signal Dolly# S01 and R-22#37371 ex 7371-S. 7371 was making music as it stopped to wait for a line-up.
All other work motor (i.e. Revenue collection, Signal Dolly WM) R-22's
were all modified with new or used propulsion equipment and the annoying sounding WABCo D-4-S compressors. I wounder why 7371 wasn't converted with a D-4-S. It is not like the TA dosent have none of these units in stock. But I'm glad they didnt touch this car!!!!
Who misses the original compressor sounds that were on all SMEE (R10-R36) cars?
State your opinions.......
I was talking about that car last month. It also has its factory J-1 relay with cast iron brake shoes and the entire consist stopped before the dime, unlike today's garbage.
Hey, Harry! Exactly how many of these work motors are left? It's extremely rare to find an R17,21 work motor out there. Of the work motors, can I safely assume that 7371 is one of the few unmodified cars still out there?
-Constantine
There are about four cars with one being stripped. 7371 does have its original compressor too, with a slight piston knock but not bad for it's age. Im surprised the TA didn't buy more R-127s to replace these aging dinosauric work motors. I believe 7350 or 49 is the one being stripped. I told you I wouldn't use an R-36 door at Branford if I were you.
Also judging from the noise of the pilot motors, Id assume they have late model SCMs, not their original westinghouse choppers. They also have GE grids. The beauty is they still grind to a stop with A-1 operating units and cast iron brake shoes. Sorry Steve, I know you wanted this hush hush. INSHOT AND ALL!
All active R-22 work motors were rebuilt with GE SCM control groups. The Revenue collection cars have new GE SCM control groups with new GE 1257E1 motors while the signal dolly R-22's (7307, 7349, 7366, 7371, 7420, 7460) have used GE SCM's, (from R-33's) with Westinghouse 1447C traction motors. The GE master controller on the revenue collection cars came off unrebuilt R-38's and original WABCo SMEE brake equipment was replaced with New York Air Brake Equipment (now Knorr).
By the way WH R-22's never had CHOPPER, they had UNIT SWITCH control groups.
What was the reasoning behind the molestation of the revenue collector car's brakes but not the work motors? If the dolly has composition brakes, why not the horses? Not that Im complaining but they could have done the work motors in a modified contract at the same time.
I sure hope someone saves one of these R-21/22's when they are retired from work service.
Ditto for the riding motors RD332, RD335 which are quaint R15s.
I think there are some R12 or R14 riding motors out there too.
If there are any R21 left as work motors, they should save one of them too - they're different than R21 - different straps, different lights, seats etc. They're a cross between R17 and R22.
Wayne
Try R21 7267 at Westchester Yard here in the Bronx. She's not in working order, sitting out the rest of her days as a storage room of sorts. The car doesn't even have shoe beams anymore!!!
-Constantine
Yes but originally that car was transferred from Coney Island so that the original locker car 6895 could be placed on a list of cars for possible restoration, along with the fire school R-12s. You can't save everything, especially without volunteers.
What???? Another R17 for restoration? You gotta be kidding me!!! Gee, I wonder what paint scheme that car would be painted in. I was riding 6895 during WestFest and she sounded ok. The car wasn't making noise, cheerfully doing the thing she knows best - OPERATING ON THE RAILS.
Also what do you do with the R12/14 combo? I don't suppose that duo was going to operate with 6895 during West Fest, eh? These cars probably should not have been transferred from C.I. to Westchester since they weren't being used. Can I expect 6895 to go down to C.I.?
You don't have to tell me about the volunteer bit. I already know that.
Speaking of which, I also spotted an R22 7486 over at Westchester Yard.
-Constantine
Those three cars are the trust of a Superindentent (RTO or DCE?) up there. I don't know the details, but he was going to restore the three with his own "resources".
Now if that means his own funds and labor or employees and his TA budget, I don't know. But they've been there a long time, and nothing has been done.
Hey Erik!
With the SMEE fleet nearing it's end, it's only appropriate to get these SMEE's out and running. Perhaps, they can put these together with the cars at the Transit Museum.
6895 had been there for years, but the R12/14 combo was only transferred recently, I believe. Whatever the case maybe, I wish the Superintendent the very best in his restoration efforts. You can't perform the restoration work at Westchester, can you? Certainly, these cars would at least have to travel to 207th St.
-Constantine
Stef!
Pelham Mtce has a shop building, that could serve for most of the work. There are enviornmental concerns to sanding and painting that would probably either force them out side or to one of the main shops.
Harold and I did a hell of a lot of painting and sanding out in the yards. We dropped three motor/generator sets and two compressors. Completely gutted 7 group boxes and carried 43 cast iron brake shoes. The old fiberglass seats make a great sledge. We'd tie on a wire and pull the sucker around the yard in the middle of the night. Did it for years, untill I finnaly got us transfered to 207th. There I had some old friends, and we got the car shopped. Then we got some work done!
Keep up the good work, and thanks for the info.
Speaking of the Superintendent, I was told that he wanted the 4 SMEEs at the NYTM to come out for the West Fest event. It didn't happen because I belive Mr. Hanna opposed it (if I have my details right). He didn't like the guy. I wonder what could have happened?
-Constantine
Hey Everybody-
Hey Everybody-
I was looking at a page of pictures of the Key System today, and lo and behold, there are two pictures of the Manhattan El cars that were sent out to Richmond, CA during WWII to transport workers to the shipyards. Since these cars came up on this board a little while ago (IIRC, as the only remaining Manhattan El cars?), I thought you all might appreciate pictures:
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/keysyst/key.htm (They're towards the bottom of the page)
They sure do look funny with those pantographs!!
Thanks, Damian, for the great web site reference to Dave's Railpix. He's done an amazing job.
There are still two Manhattan el cars in California, at the Rio Vista museum. Some of us who went to the ERA Convention in San Francisco three years ago went to that museum; the cars "need fixin'," as they say here in the North Country of NY, but it was a pleasure to be able to be inside one of them.
Weren't Manhattan El cars in use on the Dyre Avenue Line until it was through-routed to the IRT mail lines? I seem to recall gate cars and conductors collecting fares.
Ed Alfonsin
Does anyone know why the Transit Museum does not have an Manhattan El car on display?
With them having been an integral part of the Manhattan landscape for all those years, it would seem that they would want to have one there...anyone know why they don't?
Barry,
You haven't been in the Transit Museum lately, have you? Well, there's an el car on display which is Money Car G. The car which dates back to 1878, is from the el's steam days. This car is on loan to the Transit Museum from the Branford Electric Rwy Association, operator of the Shore Line Trolley Museum in East Haven, CT (until 2003).
There's a good reason why you don't see Manhattan El cars in the Transit Museum. First, no one ever bothered to save one; Second, even if one were saved, the cars were pretty high, with a probable chance that the cars wouldn't be able to clear a subway tunnel in one piece. Car G was very fortunate that she was able to clear in one piece; for shipment to the Transit Museum she went into the tunnel without her marker lamps and head lamp for fear the top of the tunnel would tear them off.
There are Manhattan El Cars still in existence; A museum in Gettysburg has one. In California you can find two. Branford has two, Car 824 and Car G (on loan to the NYTM).
The only reason there were el cars in California, was because they were needed during World War II for shuffle workers around numerous facilities. Fortunately, someone saved those el cars.
Speaking of wooden cars, I've always wondered why no one ever bothered to save a wooden Composite subway/el car?
Any thoughts?
-Constantine
< Speaking of wooden cars, I've always wondered why no one ever bothered to save a wooden Composite subway/el car?
< Any thoughts? >
The Composites, like many other pieces of equipment of the era, simply missed the boat.
The Transit Museum idea was just hatching in the mid '60s. Several of us advocated for the idea back then, and from within the Transit Authority, Don Harold was a big mover in bringing to fruition.
But the important point is the date--June 1965, when some Standards, Qs and Lo-Vs were prettied up to celebrate both the World's Far and the anniversary of the BMT Broadway Subway.
Before then, private museums saved whatever they could by purchase, often from the scraplists. After that date, the TA actively strove to save some of each piece of existing equipment.
But what got saved depended a lot on the luck of what was still around--not only active equipment, but equipment in work trains, and such lucky events as the fact that the TA was willing to "reverse engineer" some Q types back into the 1200-1400 class gate cars from which they were rebuilt.
But a lot was lost by not much time. In less than a decade before 1965, the Transit Museum (and in many cases everyone) missed Hi-Vs, BMT PCCs, BMT Peter Witts, Composites, Deck Roof Hi-Vs, one of most kinds of BMT elevated equipment other 1200, 1300 and 1400 and Qs. Also the Bluebird, the Zephyr, C-types, and probably a lot else that I'll get too depressed if I try to enumerate them.
Manhattan el cars will clear B division tunnels as long as the marker
lamps are removed. It's close. Brooklyn el cars are a few inches
taller and they won't clear. Nothing will clear on the A division.
The 3 Brooklyn el cars that the Transit Museum has on display still
have the (historically inaccurate) Q car lowered roofs, that's why
they are able to get in there.
Thank You for clarifying that, Jeff.
-Constantine
Thank you for posting that site, I've been trying to find a site about the Key System for a while!
Nice collections of old photos, thanks for posting the link.
Mr t__:^)
When you have free time visit http://www.forgotten-ny.com
A lot of stuff including Queens trolly and subway history.
Wow! It's great to see all that old stuff again! I didn't know about the exterior sign "Mott Avenue Station". Next time I'm in Da Bronx I'll have to get a shot of THAT one. The Mott Avenue tablet and the "MH" icons at 138th Street-Mott Haven I already have.
He should update his site though, the Twinlamps have made quite a comeback along Central Park West, especially around the Museum, no doubt in the wake of the parade accident a few years ago. They've got them positioned with their arms parallel to the curb. They're REAL Cast Iron, too! And there's a whole gaggle of Bishops Crook Lamps all up and down Smith Street in Brooklyn.
Wayne
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/061299la-subway.html
above url leads to article/pix. When I was in LA last week I sampled the Red and Blue lines which connect. At rush hour the blue was busy, the Red so-so. The stations arfe clean--few users=little dirt-and the headways on the Blue line LRVS are short. Pity the system was so corruptly built that public tolerance for the price has vaporized.
Does anybody know anything about the writer of that NYT article? His name is Todd S. Purdum and he seems to be in the tradition of the NYT that back in 1977 identified a GG-1 as a "steam engine" under a photo and a "diesel engine" in the body of the article the photo was part of. Do transit stories get assigned like obituaries or animal births at the zoo?
Even though most of his article is written reasonably enough, albeit with a somewhat negative emphasis, the section I've clipped and included here shows some "carelessness," to be polite. One has to wonder if he was even (or ever) in the subway when he talks about "rubber-wheeled trains." (Montréal, Mexico City, and some lines in Paris are "rubber-tired," but not "rubber-wheeled, and Los Angeles is not in the group of rubber-tried cities.) And he certainly has no sense of the world-wide use of Proof-of-Payment fare systems and the use of POP in Los Angeles itself on the Blue and Green Lines when he makes comments like "comparative novelty," and uses words like "still works" and "expected to buy." We shouldn't forget that some of the older systems, like New York, are gradually becoming the anomalies in keeping traditional pre-pay systems.
Quoting from the Times article--
> The subway stations are spotless and nearly empty, the
> rubber-wheeled trains almost silent and the whole experience such > a comparative novelty that the $1.35 fare still works on a honor
> system, in which passengers are expected to buy tickets but face
> no turnstiles or other barriers before boarding.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Well, A GG-1 has a steam gen, and I'd assume they smoke a lot when something pops on them, and the steam gen is oil fired I believe, so, I guess in a way, he *was* right ;) My favorite was after the williamsburg bridge accident:
"The controller was found in the highest of the 3 power settings, however the train may not have been going full speed, because it had shifted into a lower gear for the steep climb up to the bridge"
Ok, now, besides the obvious, the approach to the bridge doesn't seem THAT steep.
I also love how the NYT insists that subway cars have gotten much heavier over the years. Oh yeah, and how they harp on how old the signal system is.
I was in fact in LA a week back and actually rode albeit briefly bits of bothe Blue and Red lines. The fact that I and my companbion could choose good viewing locations @4:30 PM on a Friday should be a clue. The Red line particularly was not very busy. The Blue which actually goes somewhere did seem busy, and both seemed to have short headways. Remember that these are as if the entire IRT were from Atlantic in Brooklyn to the Flatbush, with connections to an odd cross borough line linking Bay Ridge to the Fulton El. AND nothing to Manh. Remember the TA carries more riders than all other subway and LRV systems together in the US.
This getting me mad. The past three Saturdays the at 50 Rock at 7:45am as the D pulls in on time the F is closing its doors. The conductor/tower has yet to allow a meet of these two trains. And more often then not, the F will pull out, pass two signals and WAIT, it's EOT markers glaring in Pax faces as it sits waiting for the E to clear 5th Ave.
Many a time pax pound on the Tower window "WHY DIDN'T YOU HOLD THE F". I thought except for rush hours trains will meet??
Okay so I thought I would look at the public timetable on the web to see what the times are at 50 Rock.
Low and Behold the D and the F both meet at 7:45am **BUT** if you look closely the F Public time table is the D time table (when was the last time the F went to Tremont?)
Anyone know what the employee timetable says for these two trains. It is the 6:54 Delta Stillwell on the public timetable (7:06 Kings Hwy). If I make this connection I am on time at work Saturday if not I'm 7 minutes late.
Missing meets in the non rush has always been a pet-peeve of mine. If I see a blown connection, I'll tell my conductor to reopen if I see the connection. If I were a TSS or sup't, I would verbally reinstruct the first time and write up the second time. Tower operators would be equally responsible.
If I were a TSS or Supt,I would look the other way.
[If I were a TSS or Supt,I would look the other way.]
And _ _ _ _ the passengers or your customers! If you work for the TA you have a VERY BAD attitude. When will the union learn that their job is to carry passengers and not just to make two or three trips? Why do certain train service employees feel they have the right to take out all their frustrations and anger on the traveling public? I just don’t get it.
Passengers are the reason for your existence! Maybe there would be more of them if some of the train service employees would take the passengers needs into consideration rather then their own.
Yes, we have Operators in Chicago that will close their doors at transfer stations WHILE the connection is pulling into the station. When running on a 3-minute headway, this is OK. During off-peak it is NOT OK. If I get a car number I will call it in when I get a chance, I’ve paid my fare and I have that right. Leaving passengers standing at the station to wait another 10 - 15 minutes is NO WAY to encourage repeat business! And it is no way to treat people.
So, TSS and or Superintendents who "look the other way" should be disciplined along with the train crew when connections are intentionally not made!
These comments are not intended for those of you who try your best to operate service under conditions that are not always the best. However, as you know, you have brothers and sisters out there who continually think it is their right to 'put it to' the passengers. In their minds they are 'getting even' with management when they do this. Thankfully we don't have to live with these cretins.
Jim K.
Chicago
While I have seen meets not made during off peak, I have also seen trains held for connections during rush hours. I thought that was not supposed to happen, unless there is a big problem on the trains.
Whah?! Sorry Bill but you are way out of line.
I make connections whenever I can. I sympathize with our passengers, but it's a conductors perogative to hold or not hold. If you were my train operator, I wouldn't put up with that crap. Do I tell you how to run timers? Do I tell you the line up? So don't tell me my job. You move the train, and I'll worry about connections and time. That's why the conductor is in charge of the train
And the bulletin states where possible, not all the time.
How do you know the train that didn't wait isin't late?
I always have my time table with me, do you?
Tower operators should hold trains that are early (good conductors shouldn't be) for connections, but let's not get carried away here. There's one guy at Murhpy tower in Brooklyn on the 4th av. line. He holds for connections even when trains are late!
As for the Rockerfeller Center meet, The F should wait. Almost always when I work the F, I meet a B on weekends, and a Q during the week. Should he have already turned his key when the conductor sees the connecting train (happens a lot, sorry wer'e human) then he should wait for it at 42nd or 34th. And if he's late because of it, so what. The Culver portion of the line has TOOOOOOooo much time for itself. I've been 6 minutes late at Jay St. and still gotten to Coney Island on time. So for that one there's no excuse.
But sometimes, there's no point to a connection. Say my train is crowded, and I can see headlights behind.
Why on earth would I wait? I'm only further delaying myself and the train behind me. Unfortunately the angry riders on the platform who think they've just missed the train never see it that way. I have had bottles hurled at me and have been spit on. I wonder if they felt guilty when the following train came right in behind me.
The Person at Nevins Tower also loves holding trains even when your 10 Minutes late with another No.2 Directly behind. So far there happened 4 times this pick I was over 10 Minutes late and Nevins still held My No.2 Train for a No.4 Train. Northbound they held me 4 Minutes for a connection so then I called control and they put the lights off and at that time the No.4 was arriving across the Platform but since the lights were off we left before the No.4 was able to open up. Then Later that trip I got a skip from E 180 TO Gun Hill RD.
On the No.2 Line you have to call everything in because that Line Supt. Likes making crews write reports for being late. I had to write a Report why I was 12 Minute late to Flatbush one Saturday when there were lots of GO'S and a slow Speed Order in effect. Oh and yes Nevins did hold my 2 Minutes for a No.4 Train. That another reason I call control on holding lights.
Dave, why are you doing this and not your C/R? Read my first (or second?) post on the funny stories in the subway subject.
You and I have gone through a similar war a few months ago. Maybe you are a good conductor who is in charge, but I have worked with many who don't deserve to be in charge! The train operator has to worry about time as well. If a train is a few minutes late due to a connection, so be it. Maybe the guy at Murphy is holding you because your follower is late and it is his job to equally space the service as best as possible. Stop being a mouthpiece for Nat Ford with this every second counts attitude. Re-read your post, you seem to contradict yourself in the second half on what you said in the first. Our job is to move passengers quickly & efficiently. If I'm a few minutes late so we can make a connection so passengers can save 10 minutes by not missing a connection, we have done our job. And I don't give a rats you know what about getting to the terminal late! If your train is crowded, that's another matter, but the original poster was talking about a Saturday morning! And I always have my schedule card! Read my cyber lips: you may be a good conductor, and I am a good motorman. 18 years in title almost 20 years in total. Over 200 sick days in the bank, no discipline, no wrong lineups and I know how to navigate timers. So no thanks, you don't have to tell me! I get good evaluations, I get along with supervision, I am not confrontational with them, and I just go with the program and TA beaurocracy. I don't make waves, I do my job and go home and yes, I sometimes vent here! I presently work a PM job in Queens. My conductor told me last week that I am the best motorman he's ever had in his 12 years. No, I'm not bragging, but I don't like to being put down by you. I don't want a conductor who is a dominator. Yes, you have lots of railroading experience. Frankly, I think you shouldn't be a conductor because you may be overqualified as to your previous railroading experience. I think you are bored in what you do!
Bored, maybe. Frustrated, yes. Mouthpiece for that figurehead, NO.
I try to maintain my schedule because I like my breaks too. If I'm late, then it comes out of my break time. As you know dispatchers don't move up your next trip to compensate for a late arrival on your last one.
Selfish as it sounds, to hell with the passengers. Why should I feel any different than management. I try to make as many connections as I can. But like I said, if I'm late or someone is behind me, see ya.
With me every second only counts, because it's that much less time untill I can get off the train.
As for most other conductors being poor, I agree.
I haven't worked with you, so I can't comment on your skills. But if we did, I would not intrude on your responsibilities, and I would expect you to do the same.
One of the reasons conductors are held in such low regard is that motormen have slowly taken many of the duties of the conductor.
Radios are one example. Motormen now speak for the train. OPTO and the loss of put in and lay up work, or the work trains. From all these places conductors have been deemed obsolete.
Perhaps you are right. Maybe I should not have taken this job. I knew all the BS that went on here before coming on. I am over qualified, but the only way to the motorman's job is from an entry level title, so I had no choice.
Considering recent events in my life, I may leave. Unlike 99% of my fellow employees, I have options. I'd hate to do so. It would be like leaving an old friend in need. But it's become painfully obvious that friend doesn't want help. Let the TA got to hell in a hand basket. Guys like you (Mr. make no waves) and Nat Ford are leading us there.
Spotted this sucker (pun intended) southbound local on the 7th Ave line @ 28st on my way home from Shea last night. Of all things, I make all my connections perfectly to get the 1:30 ferry, and the @#$@# ferry was LATE!
-Hank
Better that than early!
Out of curiosity, how many different styles of doors must the TA purchase? It seems that the doors on the R32/38/40/42 are all the same (I'm talking side doors) But looking, the doors on the redbirds are close as well. So, are all the side doors stainless, but the doors on the redbirds are painted to match? Or do the redbirds get carbon steel doors? Are these doors all the same? And can the R44/46 and R68/68A usae the same doors?
-Hank
I can't speak for the R-32/38/40 & 42s but I know for a fact that the R-68 & R-68A doors are not interchangable (In fact, there are 2 different R-68 doors)and the R-44 & R-46 doors are also dissimilar.
R40/42 side doors are wider than R32/38 side doors. I do no know if the doors are ionterchangable between 32/38 and 40/42.
Well, if one is wider, I would guess no. How about the redbirds? Doors on any of the current IND-BMT fleet fit?
-Hank
The doors on the red birds are aluminum. I believe they may also be smaller. The finger guards are interchangeble.
I would imagine the doors on the R-32s and R-38s are identical.
IMHO, the R-40s and R-42s should have kept their original doors, whose windows blended in very nicely with the car side windows.
When I was looking at the el track map I noticed that there were yards for the el lines. Are there any signs of them still like the 179st yard which is the closest yard since I live near Bedford Park also I have to ask another question if you read some of my plans for my yard where would be good places in the city to have yards for the lines? Thanks in advace.
Christopher Rivera
There was/is a power substation at that site.
However, there are no traces of its former use.
I think it was one of the parts of the el that disappeared
early 50's. I can not even remember seeing the actual yard
or a picture of it.
"L" yards do not seem to take up as much space as you would think and they are hard to find where they were when they are gone
The Wilson shops bunred in Chicago on the red line a few years ago
There are just a few switch tracks left and its hard to immagine how the rest fit in the space that is there
If you did not know where it was you would not think to look there
I assume you're referring to Manhattan El yards.
Quite a few BRT elevated yards are still around in subway service, sometimes altered and/or expanded. Ones that pop readily to mind are 39th Street, Lutheran, Canarsie, ENY (not Coney Island). Also some bus depots were trolley depots, such as Fresh Pond.
Quick question: Where is the "Lutheran Yard"?
That is the old Fresh Pond car barn yard,it had the trolleys that ran under the Myrtle Ave elevated. it still serves the Myrtle Ave line it's located right next to the Fresh Pond rd el station.
Prior to the consolidation of the system into the NYCTA, where did the IRT have its major-overhaul shops? (This would be before all major car work was completed at 207th Street or Coney Island.) As for old yards, the Polo Grounds yards on the IRT were incorporated into the same housing project that the old ballpark on Coogan's Bluff became part of. Perhaps Robert Moses and his housing people incorporated other yards into other developments.
George Devine
San Francisco
Well, Friday, I went to the seashore trolley museum up in maine. Got to drive 2 trolleys, see a lot of neat things, saw a billion PCCs ( :P ) and crawled around in the MP-54 up there. here's what I found:
a)The car is a bit rusty, the paint is flaking, but it's generally all there, generally good condition, and looks like it can function.
b)The interior is there, and it looks like all the seats, or at least some of the seats, are still there.
c)One control stand is complete, the other is mostly complete, but missing the wiper assembly and stuff on the motor controller itself. And possibly a few gauges.
d)It was fitted with speed control. The underside equipment was all there, however, I could not locate a battery box anywhere, and it looks like a few wires were messed with.
e)It is a Westinghouse Unit Switch setup, fitted with dynamic brakes.
f)It looks as if it was last painted in 1968 - 69.
g)It was way cool. It looks as if it can be made to function. The pneumatic door equiment is at least partially there.
f)The brake rigging under the car is frozen and rusted. interestingly, the cylinder is under on the car body, not on the trucks. The trucks have roller bearings, and I've been told the car rolls nicely.
What I'm asking for here is if ANYONE knows ANYTHING about locating schematics, and any other technical information on the MP-54 cars. I'm trying to see what information is available out therwe, to find out not only what equipment should be where on the car, but to look into the feasability of making the car functional again, though I stress that currently, this is in the research phase more than anything. So, if anyone has ANY information, or ideas, that would be useful, please email me privately. Thank You!!!
Philip, the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society has a museum and archives in Lewistown, Pennsylvania. My copies of the Keystone are all at my North Carolina house (and I'm in New Jersey right now) so I don't have an address handy but they have a HUGE amount of material rescued from the PRR archives, including erecting diagrams for many locomotives and MU cars, so you might find what you need there. There is a nominal charge for blueprints etc. but if they have it they are glad to share it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gents, Ladies remember the Subway Quiz posted many weeks back..?? well
how about one for London! Answers will be posted on Bustalk to make it easy to check, so for the well seasoned traveller here we go!
-----------------
Question 1:
It is possible for a train to travel from one end of the line and
return without the train operator changing ends. What line(s) and
where..?
.
Question 2:
How many stations have the same name but are at different locations?
.
Question 3:
One station served by two lines has Northbound trains departing
from cross platforms in oppsosite directions !! is this true?
.
Regards :^)
Rob London UK
1. There's a Loop outside of Kennington. The other's at Heathrow.
2. Edgware Road, Edgware Road and Edgware Road.
3. That might be Camden-Town, but don't quote me on it.
Wayne
Don't forget the Circle Line and the east end of the Central Line
(I didn't read any followups yet so here's my go at it:)
1. If you mean they don't have to change ends at all, there's only one, the Circle line in both directions. Other runs with only one end change that I can think of are:
a. Piccadilly Line-Heathrow loop
b. Central Line-Hainault loop but I don't know if any service is operated all the way around the loop and back, or if all trains turn back at Hainault. When I rode out there via Woodford we had to change trains at Hainault to leave via Newbury Park
c. The Northern line has a loop someplace near Oval; but again I don't know if there are any short turn trains that use it
2. I can only think of one that really counts- Shepherd's Bush. Some others are a stretch-- Paddington for instance is more or less three seperate stations with a hike in between. The same could be said for all transfer stations so I don't think Paddington counts in this case.
3. This is a tough one. Euston on the Northern line might fit this scenario because if I remember correctly the branches of the Northern line actually cross (and Mornington Crescent is on the easternmost branch). (Right?) But I don't know if that counts as a station served by two lines, since it's the two branches of the Northern. I don't know if the Circle line has a northbound or if it's just clockwise/counterclockwise or inner/outer, but if it does, and if Northbound=clockwise, then Aldgate might qualify. Some of the stations shared by the Met and the H&C might count too (like Great Portland Street, Euston Square, Kings X, Barbican etc.) That's a stretch. I'll admit I don't know this one.
-Dave
Rob, thanks for the quiz.
Answers
1) Northern at Kennington, amd Piccadilly at Heathrow
2) Edgware Road, Paddington, Hammersmith, Shepherds Bush.
3) Euston - Northern and Victoria
This also happens at Kings Cross but the trains are at different level but go to the same restination on different lines, Met and Pic
After posting this I shall look at the answers and cringe.
Many thanks Rob
Simon
Swindon UK
Stations with the same names in different locations:
Does anyone know if the LT ticket system allows for an interchange between Euston/Euston Square? OK, the names are different, but this is a much easier interchange than some that are advertised on the map.
Max, intersting point but it depends on what sort of Ticket you have.
A zone 1 single single(£1.40)
A Carnet (book of 10 zone one singles at £10)
A Travelcard (various prices upto £4.20)
......
The walk from Euston Square to Euston (Mainline) is less than 7 minutes and i'm sure that any interchange you could make between the two stations is catered for at Kings Cross/St Pancras.
Euston Square has Circle/Met/ Ham & City
Euston Has Northern/Victoria
...
Staying on from Euston Square and transferring at Kings Cross/StPancras allows transfer to Northern and Victoria also.
Ticket gates would keep certain tickets as Journey would be "broken"
as laid out in conditions of travel. For example buying a single from
Paddington to Golders Green, route would be via Kings Cross, if you got off at Euston Square (breaking journey)you would have to pay again!.
Why 'oh Why can't we have a simple Token system like our friends in New York!!!
Regards
Rob:^)
Rob,
I am probably unique in this, but occasionally need to get from Goodge Street to Liverpool Street at about 9:30 at night very quickly, and
my strategy is to stand between platforms at Goodge Street and take the first train, North or South, changing at Euston or Tottenham Court Road (I hate this station, and avoid it when I can). I always have a Travelcard when I do this, and so never have to worry about validity.
Looking at the map, there are several awkward journeys from the West End Branch of the Northern Line to the Circle line, such as Tottenham Court Road to Farringdon. Central Line to Holborn, Circle Line to Kings Cross involves two really awful interchanges. In fact, I was about to pose the general question, which is the worst interchange between two lines in Central London, except that the obvious answer to this question in "most of them"...
"Why 'oh Why can't we have a simple Token system like our friends in New York!!! "
Well you would still have the problem of broken journeys you mentioned in your post. It would even be agrivated at locations like King's Cross where you must exit and re-enter fare control for certain transfers. Your tickets can handle this (even if some tourists can't).
To maintain your current level of revenue, your token or averaged price would probably be in the range of £2 to £3 ($3.20 to $4.80). Of course this is a bit more than your already outrageous zone 1 base fare of £1.40 or $2.25.
Then again, you can afford massive infrastructure improvements like the Jubilee line while we dream of a 2nd Ave. line. And your zoned system for Travel Card allows a certain amount of travel on national/regional rail lines while we must buy separate passes for both.
Francis
The fares are high, but people are prepared to pay them. I suspect that the last thing that LT would want is a hike in ridership due to a fare reduction. They would have less money and to run more trains. Once you get inside the Circle Line, finding a seat can be difficult at all times of the day.
Where is the location of the abandoned PATH yard near exchange place.
Is it elevated? What is the location if it still exists?
The yard is at ground level just north and east of the Grove-Henderson station. If you are at the east end of the G-H station on the Newark-bound side, you can look into the tunnel and see where the spur branched off to go to the yard. It branched off facing northeast, went up a steep ramp, and then did a 180 degree turn, clockwise, to surface in the open-air, street-level yard.
The Henderson Street Yard was bordered by Henderson St,Steuben St,Warren St and Railroad Av. The connection to the yard was via Tunnel Y just east of Grove Street Station in Tunnel G (Westbound).
The switches have now been removed but the tunnel is still visible.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As others have said the tunnel lead is still visible on the westbound track just east of Grove St. Station, and the location that LarryRedbird posted is correct except Railroad Ave. is now called Christopher Columbus Drive. The area in question is now an elementary school. There's nothing to see of the old PATH yards. I live five blocks from there.
-Dave
As others have already stated, the yard was located at Stuben St. alog with a repair facility. I went to a job interview there back in 1980 or 81. As I recall, the shop held a maxium of 6 cars.
The 6/22 at 6PM "Field Trip - Extra Section" to the Newark PCCs will be making a stop at Grove St. on the way back. We'll also pass by current yard West of Journal Sq. where 6/4 a lot of equip. was qued up.
Mr t__:^)
Can you still eat pizza at Sbarro and go downstairs to watch the subway trains while eating pizza? What will the station look like when it is rebuilt?
Can you still eat pizza at Sbarro and go
downstairs to watch the subway trains while eating
pizza? What will the station look like when it is
rebuilt?
Yes you can - Sbarro's lower level faces out on the northbound 1/2/3/9 platform. Simon and I have done this view a few times - his trip would not be complete without a stop here. The IRT station has already been rebuilt, so I don't anticipate any changes here anytime soon.
I like Caruso's Pizza on the LIRR concourse better - they make an authentic thin crust. Sbarro's can be gloppy at times.
Wayne
Caruso's better than Sbarro's??? Better than anything, for that matter??? Wayne, you need to get some good pizza, because you've obviously never had any to judge by!
When you take a bite of a Caruso's pizza, you can almost still taste the metal can the sauce was in!
I have never tasted an aftertaste like that in my life.
I wouldn't give a slice of Caruso's to one of the homeless around Penn Station--I would be afraid of being accused of trying to poison them!
All in good humor,
Barry
I dont know about that - there may be more than one baker there :o) Several times I've had their pizza it's been OK. All right, the sauce IS a little metallic, but for me it's all in the crust. Our neighborhood pizzeria (Alfredo's, West Babylon) makes superb thin crust pizza.
The Sbarro's at WTC is good, if you can get a seat there.
Wayne
Hey Wayne:
Didn't know you are out here on the island too. Now in Commack, used to live many years on the South Shore. You must try "Albert's" pizza on Great Neck Road just south of the Copiague LIRR station. The pizza is great, has been voted one of Long Island's best for years, you can't go wrong.
While onthe topic of food, ever heard of "All American" hamburger stand on Merrick Road and HIcksville Road in Massapequa? Be ready to wait on line, just try their burgers, fries, and "tuna on bun". And you can't beat their prices.
Mike H
For a unique burger & fries, how about Pinky's across the street from Penn Stn. Used to make a big deal of it to my wife, then one day she wanted to go there while we were in the city :-(
It's a greasy spoon, but the name is catchy.
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone remember this from the (gulp!) 60's?
Hamburger Choo-Choo, on Main Street in Huntington. You'd sit at the counter, and when your order was ready, it would come "piggy-back" on a Lionel train outfitted with flat cars. Your order would stop right in front of you!
There's a restaurant like that in Sanford, North Carolina, using LGB trains. Not sure if they are still in business - I sold them the equipment back around 1993, when I was still heavily involved with The Hobby Shop in Raleigh.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was also a hamburger place like that in Manhattan, but I can't remember where--east side in the fifties or sixties, I think. It used Lionel trains, since the revival of #1 gauge by LGB and others was far in the future.
Even though the G gauge trains would provide more space and pulling power for a meal, perhaps two of the MTH O Gauge subway cars could be used with two or three flat cars or gondolas in between so it would look like a work train. The motors in those cars are fairly powerful.
A taco or hot dog place might do quite well nowadays, I would think. A locomotive pulling some gondolas could work (for the taco place, N de M lettering would be appropriate).
Of course, it's all probably contrary to modern health laws to deliver food that way, though, unless it was wrapped in plastic wrap and the flat cars or gondolas were sterilized after each run.
8-)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Is that what Ameriacns call "fast food"
Simon
Swindon UK
THERE IS on East Conklin Street (Route 24), just at the eastern edge of Farmingdale, LI, a delicatessen whose front is made up of the end of an R21 subway car. I've been there a few times. They have car windows set against the walls. I also have searched in vain for any trace of the unit number, so I could identify it.
Wayne
On Broadway near 53rd is a diner with the front of a redbird
That's Ellen's Stardust Diner right near the Winter Garden theatre. The side of the restaurant is supposed to look like an IRT RedBird without side doors. Inside that part of the restaurant looks like a subway car interior, equipped with lots of advertisements (mostly Miss Subways) from the '60s.
The owner of the restaurant was a former Miss Subways herself.
--Mark
Is the food any good? (We're big fans of Cats so it would be a convenient place for a nosh before the matinee but I've always been a bit skeptical of the place.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, the food is quite good and the portions are of decent size, though it's somewhat pricey. And now they have singing waiters/waitresses, too.
--Mark
Wayne, can we go there in October. I have to have the Railfan window.
Simon
Swindon UK
The track for the McCaul Loop in downtown Toronto curves counterclockwise into an office building, with a glass wall so you can see into (and out of) the first floor of the building. Inside the loop is a diner partially made of two Toronto Peter Witts (sorry, I couldn't find numbers). As I recall, there are no trolley poles on them, but my memory may be wrong. The entrance to the diner is from the McCaul sidewalk.
It's a good idea to keep one's mouth closed if looking up at the car roofs, though; lots of pigeons live on the roofs of the cars inside the loop.
Seeing those cars is the kind of thing you just notice as you're standing there waiting for a streetcar; there are no signs or other indications. It's perhaps like suddenly recognizing some old structure as part of an abandoned trolley or el line.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
(Recovering from computer
freezing for the last day or two
every time I went to a second message
on a bookmarked site)
Back in the late 60's Hero Heaven was the best place to get a hero sandwich,the specail had all the cheese's and all the cold cuts one could find,i used to get lunch there for the building engineers in my dept at rockefeller center,a few blocks away,we all could eat the large back then.....
Yes, and I think there's one on Route 109 north of Straight-Path out here in WB Land as well. I'll have to double check on that one.
I've been living here in WB for ten years. I'm about 700 yards east of the Babylon-to-Bethpage main line spur.
Wayne
The pizzas may be gloppy but the spagetti has that kind of sauce that when you get it on your clothes the stains just dont wash out mmmm.
For me it is the perfect day. Breakfast at Sbarros overlooking the rush hour scene, orange juice,home fries with extra fat, sausage, fruit all for $4.00. Redbirds one after another. Straight into the station then Chambers - 96th, 96th - Chambers and so on until lunch. Redbirds all the way, no silver for me. Lunch at Sbarro. Pizza with all the bits on, pipeing hot, with a large Pepsi ( not diet). After the silver has passed it is into the station just in time to catch a Redbird it does not matter in whch direction as long as my rightful place, the Railfan window is clear. Up and down again with perhaps a swap to the East side IRT. Coffee and muffins at Grand Central then a Railfan window trip on the No7 express to Main Street. Back to 34th and Sbarro for dinner. Spagetti with Chicken, salad, and those little roll things which give you Lizzard breath. One last ride to 96th. Then back to the Hotel.
What a day
Simon
Swindon UK
I'd take a hot dog (or four) at Nathan's watching the West End, Brighton & Culver Lines go back and forth anyday! (You can't see the Sea Beach from the corner of Stillwell & Surf Aves).
Even if they don't have Redbirds ....
--Mark
You are making me feel hungry.
If you ever come to the UK try fish and chips at Ealing Broadway.
Simon
Swindon UK
What happend to the needix orange juce and hot dog places in N.Y.C. i hear they went out of busness....damm good hot dogs and orange juce.
Yes, Nedick's was great. One distinction, however: the Orange was a drink not a juice!
As Todd said they along with White Tower are gone. There used to be one in Penn Stn above Track 19 on the 7th Ave side (actually Penn had two of them). Many times I had a greasy egg sandwich on my way in from LI. In my coin collection I have a Nedicks' Nickle ...
"Eat Better Far Less ... 1959". I also have a Woodstock $1, but that getting way off topic.
Mr t__:^)
There used to be a place on the upper East Side, Yorkville, I think called the "Third Avenue El". This deli/restaurant featured posters and artwork depicting it's name-sake as well as an extensive model elevated railroad (built and maintained by the famous Joe Frank using Traction Models equipment). Sadly, it is long gone. I think that the folks at the now defunct "Broadway Limited" purchased the collection after it closed. Today, there is a bar at the end of the Pelham line called "The Third Rail" that features neat murals of the El and subway cars. Frequented by transit workers, this is a favorite stop of mine while rail-fanning the system when I'm in town. You can't beat the "Riverdale Diner" at 238th Street and Broadway in the Bronx for breakfast. Get a seat near the windows and watch the action coming and going from the nicely restored 238th Street Station. Their apple pie is great!
Having thought I'd seen everything in the subway by now, the sight of a wedding party at the City Hall station on the N threw me for a loop. Here was the bride in white gown (no train - and don't even say it), groom in tux, cleric and about 12 friends. They were all boarding a north-bound R as my south-bound N came in across the platform about 11:00 this AM.
Last Saturday here in Chicago, I saw a group of well-dressed people coming out of the Clark/Lake L station (as I was coming out of the Clark/Lake subway station) heading towards the City/County Building. Only when I saw the carnations on their lapels and dresses did I realize it was a wedding party! I mainly didn't realize until then because the men were not wearing tuxedo jackets or cummerbunds (it was over 90 degrees!) and the bride's dress, while fancy, was not a traditional wedding dress.
I guess they took the warnings on the radio about not driving downtown (various and sundry festivals, in addition to the usual tourist crowd) seriously!
From 5/15/41 to 3/19/54 IRT Gate Cars 1580 to 1600 operated on the Dyre Avenue Line. In 1954 they were replaced by Hi-V's. Through service to Dyre didn't begin until 1958 even though the flyover had been completed several years earlier.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS After October 1950 these were the only Gates left in service on the IRT.
Larry--
Do you (or anyone else) know what happened to those cars? Scrapped? Wouldn't the subway cars have been Lo-Vs rather than Hi-Vs? It's funny--I don't remember IRT standards there before the 7th Avenue started through-running, but I may have ridden them.
If the el cars were retired in 1954, there's another early TA decision to think about.
I'm surprised there had been 21 cars assigned to the service. Are there that many on the shuttle operation nowadays?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Ed: I agree that the number of Gates seems excessive given that the rush headway was 10 mins and the base headway was 15. Perhaps they were assigned in anticipation of much higher ridership and when that did not materialize they simply remained there as the Gates were already dissappearing from the remaining el.
The Gates were replaced by Deckroof Hi-V's 3664,3665,3667,3680 and 3699 and by Hedley Hi-V's 3711,3712,3717 and 3748 on 3/19/54. These were non-MUDC Hi-V's so it would have made sense to assign them to a line with two car trains.
These only lasted until October 10,1955 when they were replaced by 14 Steinway Motors; 4025-4036 the original "Boilers" and 4573 and 4756.
I do not the the current car requirements for the shuttle but I did ride use the line in 1962-63 when it was still signed up as #9. Three 5 car trains ran from about 8p-11p, then 2 until 1am the 1 when the headway was cut to 40 mins.
Larry,redbirdR33
A few gate cars remained in work train service on the 3rd Ave line until the mid 50's.
Have you ever heard of Farmer's Oval? Do you know where it is? Does it have something to do with the Myrtle el? Is it somewhere between Fresh Pond Road and Metropolitan Ave? Can you enlighten me with any history?
Karl B.
P.S. Was Fresh Pond Yard formerly called Farmer's Oval or was there another section identified by that name?
Karl: I'm afraid that outside of the Bronx my knowledge of local streets is somewhat limited. I looked to three sources for any info about the area you mentioned. Prior to 1915 the Myrtle Avenue El ran on a surface ROW north of Wycloff Av. This was know as the Lutheran Cemetary Line in the early days and the Fresh Pond Yard in 1910 was called the "Lutheran Yard." The yard was built in 1906 and greatly enlarged in 1915.Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry; Thanks for trying! I remembered that old name of Lutheran Yard right after I wrote you so I realized my mistake. I still have a feeling that there is an area in that general locale known years ago as Farmer's Oval and I think Ed Watson sent me a transit picture about 45 years ago identified as such. I never heard it again and can no longer find the picture. I guess it will be another one of those unanswered questions.
Thanks for checking it out!
Karl B.
On NJT arrow coaches, in the cab there is a red box labeled "Flares and Torpedos". What are torpedos? I read that there were powerful
explosives used as a signal. If this were true wouldn't the explosion damage the tracks, wheels? How do the look like?
It's like a big firecracker that could be strapped to the rail. It warned a following train that there was a train stopped ahead. The railroads used a lot of them in the old days before radio, CTC and the modern signals. It did not damage any wheels or rails but made a loud noise when the following train ran over it. When a train hit a torpedo they were supposed to stop. I think it was the duty of the rear brakeman on the first train to place and remove an unexploded torpedo when they were ready to move.
The torpedo was something like a large firecracker,running over it caused a large popping sound. The use of two topedoes at a time was required just in case one did not go off. It was mainly used in "dark" or unsignalled territory if one train in a block was doing less than track speed the conductor or brakeman would place two torpedoes as necessary to warn the following train. The explosion of the torpedoe(s) meant that the following train was to proceed at "reduced speed" prepared to stop short of a train or obstruction usually for a distance of a mile. "Reduced Speed" was a judgemental speed depending on the physical characteristics of the line and prevailing weather conditions.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I heard this was used on trolleys in Brooklyn too at one time.
I was thinking about this while on a south-bound E train at 50 St waiting for a C train to cross ahead...
Could the reason why the E once used the lower level of 42 St be because planners of that line expected congestion when the CPW local and 53 St lines merged into the 8th Ave local line. Rather than have an E-train wait at 50 St for a C train to cross ahead (and then wait even longer for the C to load and unload heavy volumes of passengers), have both E and C trains at 42 Street. And I guess it would make more sense to hold a train at 42 St instead of 50 St, because it can load more passengers while waiting.
I could be wrong...what do you think?
That could be - I don't know the answer. In any event, keep in mind that many years back the E ran express rather than local on 8th Avenue. However, your same logic would apply to E trains from 53rd Street merging with A trains from CPW. The last use I recollect for the lower level of 42 St/8 Ave was for the Acqueduct Racetrack specials many years back.
I always thought that the main reason that this lower level station was built was to prevent the westward extension of the IRT (No. 7 line).
-- Ed Sachs
It certainly serves that purpose - whether or not that was the intention is another issue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Given the nature of one John Hylan and his intense dislike for private transit operation, it's quite possible the lower level was deliberately put in to block the Flushing line. Supposedly, the bumper blocks of the Flushing tracks are on the other side of the tunnel wall at 41st St.
Whatever the reason, the lower level sat unused until Aqueduct Special service was implemented around 1959. I still remember the escalator at the extreme southwest end of the mezzanine which was marked, "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special" (it led directly to the lower level), and the "Entrance for Aqueduct Specials at 40th St." signs which were placed all along the mezzanine.
Rush hour E trains also used the lower level during the early 70s. In this way, they could get into 42nd St. without having to jockey for position when it came to merging with A trains. The merger was accomplished just before 34th St.
The northern end of the lower level was also used for many years as an underpass between the uptown and downtown platforms. You have to remember that the 42nd St. mezzanine wasn't fully incorporated into the paid fare zone until the 80s. Prior to that, only the sides of the mezzanine where the stairways led to the platforms were paid fare zones. In other words, there were separate turnstiles for the downtown and uptown platforms. The middle of the mezzanine was not, and there was no free transfer to the IRT and BMT. The downtown platform, for instance, had signs which said, "For Washington Heights, the Bronx and Queens trains, use underpass." Passengers were directed to the last staircase at the northern end of the southbound platform, where you descended to the lower level and followed the signs to the uptown platform, reemerging at the southernmost staircase. There was a loose chain link fence which blocked off access to the rest of the lower level platform. I remember using the underpass in 1968; the lower level was dimly lit and looked like a ghost town, even though it was in use. It gave me the creeps.
When I did the tour last year with Mark & other SubTalkers we used a mid-platform staircase to get down there (it looks like one of those storage closets, but the door opens to a stair).
The escalator is still there at the South end (I didn't venture that far, but could see it was still there). North end, some did venture that way too, but again not me. Red lights still shown on the signals. It was still as dimly lit as you remember, but the TA had cleaned it up a little for us.
Mr t__:^)
When I went down a couple of years ago with a TM tour we descended via the north end. Some folks went all the way to the south end and got chewed out by the Museum folks (we had been asked to not venture much past mid-platform). There was a bunch of stuff stacked on the platform down toward the south end and the rails were shiny, as if a work train had been down there recently or it had been used as a bypass.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
E trains could still bypass 42nd St. via the lower level if for some reason they could not gain access to the downtown platform (stalled train, etc.).
The lower level at 42nd St./8th Ave is used for storing out of service trains mostly.
I don't know either. And I don't know for how many years (if ever) the lower level was regularly used. But moving the merge point one stop down the line wouldn't make sense. Exiting passengers would have an extra flight of stairs to ascend, Queens bound trains would still be on the upper level possibly confusing passengers, and actually more people get off at 34/8 than at 42/8 from the E. Additionally, passengers would be running down the stairs at an unsafe speed (like at 50/8 presently and Bergen when you had F local & F express) so they can get the next downtown local. You'd be suprised at the number of passenger injuries running down stairs!
They could just extend that ramp they have there lower. Ramps are easier than stairs.
Yes, I've heard that explanation here before. I think it is pretty well established that that is indeed the reason it was built.
The reasons for building the lower level SB at 42/8 Ave are probably lost in history - but another reason was no doubt to provide a "reservoir" platform where trains could be started/terminated without interfering with thru train traffic. Whatever the case, the E trains last usded the lower level in 1976 - and I believe the extra fare Aqueduct specials ended in the late 70's as well.
Another reason I have heard is that the original design of the 8th Ave IND had a lower level terminal at 34th/8 Ave for trains to/from Upper Manhattan and Queens. The large space below the platforms at that station would suggest such a plan. So of course, a lower lowel needed to be provided at 42d St as well, but that's as far as it got.
Thanks to Sid Keyles and the NJ-ARP we now have some photos of this new light rail line in NJ: Hudson Bergen Light Rail: A First Look.
Thanks Sid!
--Dave
Great stuff! More new rails for me to ride and new numbers for me to collect. I have created a new page in the Master Numbers Book right after Path K/Newark PCC for it.
They look like they're almost ready to roll. Do they have an opening date set?
And those trolleys - they're the same ones Boston has, no? (Japanese make, hyphenated name) No doubt they'll be the ones Newark is getting next year.
Wayne
I believe the projected start date for the first segment of Hudson Bergen Light Rail (to Exchange Place from both 45th Street Bayonne and West Side Ave Jersey City) is March 1, 2000. The vehicles are manufactured by Kinkisharyo (which I've also seen as Kinki-Sharyo). I think that company did manufacture the Type 7's in Boston. The Hudson Bergen cars have a resemblence to the light rail vehicles in San Jose, although those are made by UTDC of Canada.
Paul is correct - I should have said 34th Street in Bayonne rather than 45th Street.
Supposedly March 2000 is the opening date for the first segments, Exchange Place to Liberty State Park, then two branches to West Side Avenue in Jersey City and 34th Street Bayonne. Further extensions to Hoboken, Weehawken, and Bergen County are supposed to be done in the future.
The same cars will be used on the Newark city subway once the new shops and yard in Bloomfield are finished.
I believe the cars in Boston are of a different design. I'd have to check about the company that built them.
The Hudson-Bergen LRT is significant because it is the first major New York area expansion of rail transit into new territory in many years. (Midtown Direct, 63rd Street, and Chrystie Street are primarily connections between existing lines.)
An interesting sidelight ... although in NJT colors these LRV will be maint. and operated by a private company ! Now if I could only find my "trade" issue I would be able to say who ....
Mr t__:^)
The Hudson Bergen LRTS will be operated by 21st Century Rail Corporation, which is owned by Raytheon, Itochu and Kinkisharyo.
Thanks Sid, that saves me from looking for the "trade" issue with the NJT Manager/Dir hanging onto the railing of a GP, she had a tight grip
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone have any inside information about if the TA is still appointing Provisional Train Operators. My friend was on standby for the last class, and we were wonder if there will be more classes.
Thanks
I have never heard of any provisional train operators being appointed. Of course, things do change. Provisional only means being appointed to the job pending taking and passing the civil service exam.
Provisional train operators are out there now. They will be required to take the next civil service exam and pass to keep their handles. They were hired after the TA put out an exam to which only 30+ people passed. Apparently the TA decided they wanted the train worker titles in the worst way; when the union refused to negotiate, the TA put out an exam complex to TSSs, therefore creating an emergency to hire provisionals.
The requirements for provisional T/O were simply to be one
year in title and a satisfactory work record.
As usual the TA plays games.
They were turning down people wih exemplary work records
for petty issues. More often than not it was because for
whatever reason some boss didn't like them, and this was
pay back.
CIP#1: A conductor with 12 years, no disciplinary record,
and 97% of his sick time. He was turned down. Reason
given- he had an AWOL in 1990. Real reason, he thinks it's
because the line Superintendent has it for him. They had
words two years ago.
CIP#2: A conductor with 15 years was turned down. He has
several comendations in his record. Management refuses to
tell him a reason. He thinks it's because he was recently
elected a union officer. Since no one will give him an
official reason why, we can only speculate.
CIP#3: A tower operator with 2 years, and 3 years as a
conductor. He has no disciplinary record. Unfortunately he
broke his foot last year and was out for 10 days. So they
turned him down.
CIP#4: Myself, a certified locomotive engineer. I have run
freight trains that would make a TA train operator cringe
with fear. I have 13 years experience in this industry. I
was the TA's FIRST high school intern. I worked on TA
subway cars for the different vendors, air brake,
propulsion, doors. Wouldn't I be the perfect candidate?
When I asked for a reason, they refused to tell me one.
I took this matter to the head of the department, the man who personaly presented me with an award this March. He's on vacation, so it remains to be seen. Suffice it to say, I'M PISSSED. If I don't get this, I'm outta here. There is too much agrivation here, for me to stay. As a liscenced engieer, I could have wrote my ticket anywhere. I chose my home and favorite railroad. This is how they thank me. I'm disgusted to see how far this organization has degenerated.
If your file number as a conductor is above 3200 and you haven't been called yet, you won't be. I seriously doubt they will recycle the list to take a second look at anyone. They have already exhausted the list, so there won't be many T/O classes this summer. Have to wait for this July's test to be certified.
But that's what those cynical bastards want, an artificial shortage. So they can hire from the street, by resume. By-passing the civil service system. It's what they have coveted for years.
It was exactly 34 years ago today on the I.R.T., that the #2 & #5 trains swapped terminals in The Bronx. And that's what's happening today: Sunday, June 13, 1965.
Hey middle track Jack---I got a real one for you if you're as sharp as you believe you are. It's a hard one. Do you know the exact date when the Brighton Beach Express went from the #1 train to the "D" train, and when the Sea Beach Express went from being the #4 train to the "N" train? Or anyone else out there, for that matter?
It did not go directly from the 1 to D. The 1 became the Q first, then the D replaced in on 11-26-67. There was no exact date when the 1 and 4 became the Q and N. I guess whenever the officials ordering the R-27 signs assigned the new letters to the various routes, around 1960. Then the new cars, up to the 32's gradually began appearing on different routes (The QT was the first. and I think the Q was in '64 with the first 32's. The N was somewhere around then also) The letters for the southern division first appeared on a map with one of the printings of the World's Fair edition.
Eric B. You're a gentleman and a scholar. I got a picture off the internet that was taken on May 2, 1964 showing the Sea Beach with an
"N" on it. So it probably happened at that time as you said. Thanks.
R-27s also ran on the Q in the early 60s. There is a photo in Gotham Turnstiles of a Manhattan-bound Q train of R-27s at Newkirk Ave. around 1961, as well as another photo from the same spot of a Brighton express of BMT standards (perhaps a Bankers Special). There was a posting some time ago that the R-27s covered all weekend southern Division routes during the early 60s. This would have included the N, QB, RR, T on Saturdays, and TT during nights and Sundays.
The R-32s made their debut on the Q, BTW. They pushed the Triplexes over to the West End.
One other note: a safe answer would be Nov. 26, 1967. All BMT number markings were officially dropped with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection; however, all Southern Division trains were carrying letter markings by August of 1965 - except for the R-11s on the Franklin Ave. shuttle. They also appeared on the B line in 1968 sporting #3 signs.
Steve: I would concur with you on that date. The only other equiptment which could display numbered routes at the time was the R-16's and they were given some ad-hoc roll signs I believe.
Best Wishes to your parents for a long and happy marriage.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, the R-16s were still sporting number signs on the Eastern Division until the Big Change. I rode a #15 train over the Williamsburg Bridge on Sept. 23, 1967. Little did I realize that I would not ride on another train of R-16s until October of 1986.
It seems that many of the R-16s were transferred elsewhere after the Chrystie St. connection opened, and that some R-27/30s came over intially to take their places, followed by R-7/9s when the KK made its debut.
Thanks for the best wishes, BTW.
This is off-topic, but my parents were married on June 13, 1946. 53 years later, they're still an item.
For many years a half sunk tugboat called the "Cambrai" was moored next to the Coney Island Creek Bridge,when the Bridge was rebuilt to four tracks the old tug dissappeared.
Does anyone have any info on this old boat? She was always something to look for if you rode the West End or Sea Beach Lines.
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hi all,
I'm making a H-B Light Rail track map after seeing Sid Keyles's photo of track map at:
http://www.nycsubway.org/fieldtrips/hblr/hblr31.jpg
If anyone know each station's name, locations, switches, yard diagrams, etc... or anyone have actual copy of HBLR track map, Please let me know. I have a draft .gif of HBLR track map if anyone wants to see it and offer help in locating these info I requested.
Thanks,
Michael Adler
You may find the jpeg map posted at http://www.ci.jersey-city.nj.us/docs/lightrailmap.htm helpful.
Can someone please clear this up for me -
How long is the FunPass good from the first time you swipe it?
I thought it was until 3AM the next day, but a friend told me it was 27 hours after the first swipe....
Thank you.
No, 3 AM. The only way you can get 27 hours out of it is to swipe it for the first time at the stroke of midnight!
Have you tried that or does it cut the pass off at 3am (three hours later)?
Thanks for the info . . . I think that it should be good for 27 hours after FIRST USE, like the monthly and the weekly cards because the way it is now is really bad for nocturnal people who first leave their houses at let's say 10 or 11 p.m. They could not use a FunPass for their entire "days".
The MTA is assuming that we're all on the same daytime schedule, which clearly we are not.
While we're talking about people working at night, has anyone else gotten that comic book from the Public Art Fund that they have been advertising in the subway? It's all about people working at night - the full comic book was good, but almost all of it is on the ads in the subway so there's not much extra stuff to read if you've seen all the ads in the subway.
You need to remember that the Fun Pass isn't intended to be used by "workers", it's for tourist. George Pataki had it extended to 3 AM so tourist attending a movie or play in Manhattan could get back home before it expired.
Mr t__:^)
That makes sense . . . I just don't think we should treat our visitors better than our residents!
Slides of Harry Pinsker
The current status of Dallas, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Miami will begin the evening. Followed by SEPTA trolley operations, New York City Cleveland Pittsburgh, Torronto and San Francisco during the 70's. Ending the evening will be black and white slides of PCC operation in St Louis, New Orleans, Boston anf New York area railroads.
The monthly meetings of the New York Division are held on the third Friday of
each month. The next monthy meeting is 16 Jul 99. Doors open at 6:15 with
sales table available for the members. Meeting starts at 7:15. Admission is
$5.00 for non-members. Member's admmission is free.
Location is the College of Insurance Building in lower Manhattan. Address is
101 Murray Street, between Greenwich and West Street. Nearby subway stations
are the Chambers Street and the PATH World Trade Center. Street parking is
available after 7:00 PM.
Membership application are available at the door. Included in the membership:
a. Monthly publication "The Bulletin", which covers past, present and the
future of New York area rail transportation and the latest national coverage of
rail news as submitted by the members.
b. Advance trip notices
c. Free admission to the meetings.
The web site for the NY Division ERA is off line pending relocation.
For more information and a membership application enclose a large self
addressed stamped envelope and mail to:
New York Division
Electric Railroad Association
PO Box 3001
New York, NY 10008-3001
a public service announcement ....
Phil Hom
ERA3620
Does any one have any idea why the jamaica ave EL was demolished?
Does any one have any photos of the EL being dismantled? What would happen if a train would have back then attemted to "travel on the abandonded section" of the EL? Would the EL collapse? due to no maintenance? when did the EL finally close? what year was this EL torn down and how did they tear it down? if you have the answers to the above posting please contact me thank you.
Some answers:
Service from Queens Blvd to 168th - ended in 1977. Structure from Sutphin Blvd to 168 demollished soon afterward.
Service from 121 St to Queens Blvd ended about 1985. Structure was not demolished till about 1989.
The el was removed in order to re-route the J trains into the Archer Ave subway lower level, one block east, which opened in Dec. 1988.
Correction: The Metropolitian Ave/Queens Blvd. part of the el was demolished in late '90/early '91
Large (nd some small) merchants in Jamaica hoped that removal of the El would improve the commercial climate, and they lobbied long and hard for it.
The El was not in bad condition. It was one of those built as an extension pursuant to the Dual Contracts of 1913. The J line section on Fulton Street would fail a lot sooner than the demolished section.
Speaking of which, I certainly wouldn't want to see it, but it would be interesting to see how the MTA would react if part of the structure on Fulton Street were to have a serious failure. At one point in my memory, it would probably be an excuse to make the J line history and run shiny "express" buses.
The merchants lobbied for it thinking it would open up Jamaica av to sunshine. What it did instead is take away the one good reason for being on Jamaica Avenue. From what I have read elsewhere, closing the El all but killed the shopping district.
Demolition of the rest of the structure would undo the Archer Ave connection, something they would not do after spending the money to build it.
They installed new columns from Crescent to Cleveland.This suggests the TA intends to save the rest of the line. Removal of the eastern part of the line didn't improve Jamaica Ave too much.
The last 3 stations (168 st/160 st/Sutphin Blvd) were closed on 9/9/77 and were completely demolished within 1 year I don't know if www.nycsubway.org has pictures of the demolition like they do have of the Culver Shuttle's demolition aound the same time, but I can remember as a child waiting for a Q44 bus to the Bronx Zoo watching the el being demolished. It was still in its early stage, because all I saw was men with chainsaws chopping off the catwalk from the 168th st-bound track while a bunch of other workers loafed around up on the platform. My mother commented on that, that they're not earning their money (lol). I was sad because I knew I was cursed forever with a bus ride to Jamaica whenever I had to go to the doctor or whenever my mother went shopping, which was torture for me as a child because I suffered from severe motion-sickness as a child on anything that moved, with the exception of subway trains. Queens Blvd served as the terminal from 9/9/77 to 4/15/85, which could be very annoying because it was not designed as a terminal and sometimes you went to the wrong platform to get the wrong train, only to see the other train on the other side leave first (kind of like the Q train at Brighton Beach today). After 1985 a small section was demolished quickly as to facilitate the connecton to the ramp down to the new Archer Ave. tunnel. The remaining part of the line remained and decayed until community pressure forced the TA to finally chop it down in early 1991. I heard from a friend who lived there at the time that shortly after it closed the unused northern token booth at Queens Bvd. was used as a place to sell drugs in 86-88. He said that it stopped when the TA demolished the stairwell leading up to it.
I did sneak up on to the Metropolitian Ave. station in 1987 with some friends (being a mischevious teenager) and I "stole" a light fixture which had fallen from the canopy. I still have it.
That same summer, I too was up there. My friends and I salvaged some of the original station signs from Metropolitan Av. and Queens Blvd. There wasn't much else to preserve. A strange note: the third rail was still alive. We connected a bank of lights that I found, so we could see as we took the signs down, and lo and behold, it worked!
Some one told me once that the traffic lights or some other such depended on the power from the el. I don't really know.
Those signs are now up at TMNY.
The el was still connected to the power grid from a substation about 2 blocks east of where the tracks used to come to an end at Supthin Blvd. My friend was sure that the third rail was dead, and it took a lot of convincing to stop him from touching it. I pointed down the line to the nearest signal and showed him it was still live (the signals were all on, but all red with the trip-cocks up). Not a real rocket scientist. He now is a manager at McDonalds...LOL.
Did you take any pictures?
I remember driving along Jamaica Ave. underneath the abandoned portion on Oct. 22, 1988. My sister was getting married that day, and I went into the city to pick up one of the guests. Everything was still intact, although the staircases from the street to the station mezzanines had been removed.
Demolition of that segment was under way in October of 1990. I was on a J train to Parsons/Archer and looked out past 121st St. before the train turned off into the subway. The plate girders which had held the tracks were gone, but the support columns and cross beams were still in place.
In the NY Daily News Monday June 14, page 5, is an article about design flaws, red tape and unexpected structural problems have prolonged several subway-station rehabilitation projects - in one case by nearly three years, according to a report.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the article, don't delay your thoughts, on this article.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I doubt that any of us are surprised by the delays. Does this mean that when the Manhattan Bridge south
tracks re-open (this year?) the Canal St.bridge station
will not be ready for it?Stuck in the Station
The TA has a very poor engineering staff. Their designs are stuck in the '30's. The construction management staff is worse. The Williamsburg Bridge is on time and well designed because it is a DOT project with outside engineers.
The big problems cited in the News article are:
14/8th Ave-The TA failed to notice a water main at the site of a new stairway.
Canal St-An error by the contractor caused a building to sink-it had to be torn down.
[The TA has a very poor engineering staff. Their designs are stuck in the '30's. The construction management staff is worse.]
Is this true or is this your opinion? what do you mean by "stuck in the '30's?"
I happen to like seeing the "30s" designs. They are part of the essence of the subway. Take a look at two stations - Lexington Avenue/63rd Street and Borough Hall (#4/#5) in Brooklyn. Which one do you like better? Even the "plain" IND stations have their own charm, with their colored (often complementary so) tile bands. Nostrand Avenue station in Brooklyn has the nicest color of any IND station.
The period architectural elements should be preserved wherever possible. No more repeats of 3rd Avenue-149th Street, where they buried the beautiful terra-cotta cartouches behind a wall of neo-modern tile. However I do have to say that the murals they installed there are quite lovely ("Un Raza, Un Mundo...")
Wayne
I agree. But the Lex/63 station doesn't look worse than an IND station. Although I think the color scheme there isn't one that I like. The ceilings at that station are much better than the ones at your average station.
Agreed. There is far too much orange in that station; hard on the eyes. They should have used the orange as an accent. By the way, there are already leaks at 21st-Queensbridge (complete with dangling stalactites), AND at Roosevelt Island - leaking through the acoustic materials etc.
Some of the Brooklyn IND stations have interesting architectural variations - odd-placed/odd-shaped mezzanines, vent grilles, some stations have white-tiled pillars. Yes, the tile designs are plain, often to the point of blandness, but they have their own kind of "charm". Some colors are awful (i.e. Broadway_East-NY - UGH!), but some are quite attractive.
Wayne
I have nothing against bathroom tiles. I just, as an engineer, like to see modern structural design, something that is lacking in recent subway work.
He means that the TA engineering staff is stuck in traffic and can't get out of Midtown. Specifically, the 30s.
The design of recent work-63 St connection, Archer Ave etc. is basically 1930's IND. The TA's strucural engineers have not discovered the 1990's. They use heavy beams, rather than modern structural design. Look at the rediculous beams and columns used in the reconstruction of Alabama Ave/Bway compared to the oiginal lightweight lattice girders.
You can't blame the TA for everything. By law, before you dig a hole, you have to call an 800 number, and a company named 'JULS' (Joint Underground Locating Service) comes out and makes EVERYTHING that is underground. The only way one misses a water main is if it's not marked. And let's not forget that NYC has been inhabited for over 300 years, and for at least the last 150, thing have been getting buried. Until the modern era (say the late 1880s) no one really bothered to write down where this stuff was. And over time, even if was written down, things get lost. There are still ancient water and sewer mains in the city, and you hear about them every time one of them ruptures.
The same thing happens with buildings. Sometimes, things are not built according to plan, and many times, the plans are just plain wrong.
-Hank
And let's not forget that NYC has been inhabited for over 300 years, and for at least the last 150, thing have been getting buried.
This is so true. Bob Diamond's "rediscovered" tunnel under Atlantic Ave is a large example. I'm sure there are other things that are going to be "discovered".
--Mark
Yes I have seen the abysmal speed that the 14th Street-8th Avenue project is moving at. They don't even have the survey marks for the laths for the new tile on the 8th Avenue walls up yet. They're busy plugging leaks and such down in the "L" station, and the tile design was in the "let's throw some spare tiles up and see what happens" stage as of May 15. They are sure taking their sweet time down there.
Wayne
In the NY Post Monday June 14, page 22, is a article about the D.C. Subway is light years ahead of the NY Subway, by selling transit riders ''smart'' cards that do not have to be swiped or inserted to open turnstiles.
After the good folks of SubTalk reads the article, your smart thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Since I'm no longer a NYC commuter, did the Post state the cars cost $5.00 blank? That is having the card cost $5.00, and filling it will cost the same as a paper Metro Card. Did the Post state the card is only good on the rail and not on surface transit like NY. Also the NY card can be for transfer between rail and surface, where WMATA still uses a paper transfer system with an additional fare.
So who is light years ahead? At least you can go from the Bronx to the Rockaway on one fare of the cost of a sidewalk Frank.
Phil Hom
ERA3620
[Metro Card. Did the Post state the card is only good on the rail and not on surface transit like NY. Also the NY card can be for transfer between rail and surface, where WMATA still uses a paper transfer
system with an additional fare.]
Good points, but I "think" that Washington plans to expand the Smart Card system beyond the rail line. Chicago is next to get this Cubic system & NYC will follow (all three use same turnstile/farebox mfg).
P.S. I already have my CTA Go (smart) Card, it's a test card ;-)
Mr t
I believe the article does explain the initial cost, but does not mention the other limitations. Obviously, to be worthwhile it would have to work on buses and allow transfers. There is no denying that it would be quick and convenient. Would New Yorkers agree to pay for the blanks? Or would the MTA not charge it? (article not available in online edition)
I'll do some reading of my old Cubic newsletters & see if I can supply some PR stuff about how THEY see the future in Washington, Chicago & NYC.
BTW, Anybody in Wash. D.C. who no longer wants his/her Smart Card, I'ld love to trade ( how about the Yankee set of four MCs) or buy it.
Mr t__:^)
You can buy the Smart Card online at http://170.121.15.101/smartrip.cfm.
The cost is $25.00 (5 for the card, 20 is for the fare) As far as I can tell, you have to buy both.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
[The cost is $25.00 (5 for the card, 20 is for the fare) As far as I can tell, you have to buy both. ]
Thanks for the tip Phil, BUT yuk, that's pretty steep. Residual value on dip/swipe cards of a collection doesn't enhance their worth.
Mr t__:^)
Does the use of a new card in DC mean that they will now have an "expiration" date like the NY and Chicago cards? One of the good things about both DC and San Francisco from the start has been that you can carry those cards for years and they are still usable. It can be a time-saver at places like National Airport in DC not to have to go to a machine, put down luggage, and dig for bills or change to get a card. But if they're "improving" things by stopping that, I can only guess that the loonies at the MTA have exported their stupidity.
I still think that the whole notion of having pre-paid cards expire is thievery. No one has ever given me a reasonable explanation why the cards should expire, other than for the TA to rip people off to get additional income for services not rendered. Currency and stamps don't expire and the cards are are similar, except that a different amount can be deducted if fares change. And the DC and BART cards let you know how much is on the card--you can look at it at home without having to go all the way to a subway station.
People have said that an expired card can be mailed to the TA. Would anyone in his or her right mind trust the TA to acknowledge receipt, let alone issue a new card? I think they depend on people being unwilling to spend two or three dollars for certified mail when the card balance is $5 or $6. I wouldn't be surprised if they also charge for postage and handling. When someone lives several hundred miles from the City, it's almost impossible to handle.
A while back, I heard some discussion about an initial difficulty with the DC card--it was deducting value whether you intended it or not. Apparently if you even walked near a turnstile with the card in your pocket, it got activated and WMATA got your money. If that's still the case, what happens if you go to a subway booth to get maps or information and then want to enter at another station (or get on a bus, when that part of it is put into effect)?
Those cards are supposed to work like the E-Z Pass, though with E-Z pass, you can at least take it off the windshield if you don't want your account charged--you might need a receipt immediately, for example.
Chicago just stopped using tokens completely--do they still take cash? And what's the status of unused tokens? A cash gift to the CTA or can they be redeemed?
There are times I think that the Luddites were right.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Isn't the Upper West Side trying Smart Card in conjuction with the banks up there?
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
No, what they were trying was a sort of electronic cash. It didn't work out at all.
-Hank
Why is it that US cities have passes which deduct each fare as used and have to be "refilled"? In Toronto, Montréal, Vancouver and probably other Canadian cities our transit commissions issue monthly passes which provide unlimited rides for a set price.
In Toronto, the current monthly pass is C$88.50 (C$81 if you subscribe which is a real deal since the pass is mailed out two weeks prior to the next month and the amount deducted from your chequing account). In Montréal, the passes are about half the cost of Toronto's (more provincial funding there).
It just seems like such a hassle to have to continually refill your cards when ours are used for a month then recycled.
In Toronto the Metropass is valid on all route within Toronto, unlimited transfers included. It has certainly encouraged transit use because you no longer think about the cost of individual trips.
Also, GO Transit, which is the commuter rail and bus system in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) sells passes (they're priced on distance travelled). They also offer a combined pass with the TTC which provides a saving over buying the two passses separately.
The same is available in New York and Chicago. You can buy a monthly, weekly, or daily card; OR you may buy a card that stores value and deducts as you use it.
-Hank
1. You're talking about a "flash pass", really not much more than a ticket. The other major vendor, GFI, had a mag reader that deducted "rides", i.e. you bought a qty of rides vs. value or unlimited.
Both companies now have machines that can handle more complicated transactions. e.g. the farebox/turnstile is smart enough to deduct only .75 from a senior.
2. Refund: You can bring a "value" MC to any Token Booth up to a year after it expires ... so you have about a year to use the money & another year to to MOVE it to another card. You only have to send it in if you want a refund.
3. Re-fills: You can buy a "unlimited" monthly MC which is equlivant to the monthly flash pass of Toronto OR you can put $20 on a value card and re-fill it as necessary.
4. Why do cards expire: the vendor/TA decided that MC have a service life, beyond that the card may fail (scratches/worn surface/etc.) The Smart card won't fail, for these reasons, because it doesn't have to touch (go inside) the equipment.
I have a few value cards because I'm a occasional customer, also my kids borrow them when they take LI Bus or travel to Manhattan. If I still worked in Manhattan I would buy a Mail-N-Ride value card. One side would be for the LIRR, the other would include a few free rides that would be enough for me since in 11 years most of my trips on the subways were only twice a day. (the unlimited monthly is a little more expensive, so you have to make a few extra trips to make it a good value ... I wouldn't get a warm feeling just knowing the extra/free rides were there in case I needed them)
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or NYC-DOT, so this is not an official explaination ... but I hope it helps & as I've said I personally feel the TA has made the system much more complex then it needs to be !
Mr t__:^)
At least the TA FINALLY eliminated the double fare for bus/subway riders. Unfortunatelky the various electronic systems are more often, SF, DC used for oitrageous distance usage fares, and SF does not offer any flash pass.
I know that Philadelphia has had unlimited rides for set(yet fluctuating) prices. On the Regional Rail, Cross Country and TransPass, one fare and you're set for the week/month.
I presume they would supply some type of case as the PA does for EZ Pass that would shield the card from being scanned when it isn't meant to be.
[I presume they would supply some type of case as the PA does for EZ Pass that would shield the card from being scanned when it isn't meant to be.]
No that wouldn't be necessary. The Smart Card has to be a inch or two from the reader, so they would just tell you not to hang around the Turnstile and keep it on your right side to avoid paying a fare as you leave the bus. At the Turnstile and on the bus they want to know when you leave, so they would have to prevent charging a fare if they want to read the card as you exit. What if you forget or don't want to swipe again ?
Here in NYC I'm sure they'll take a perfectly good system and bastardize it, i.e. people who go in and out of the system ... to Transfer or buy something or what ever ... what if the system misses one exit, then it would get all screwed up waiting for you to exit AM but you don't untli 8 hours later ?
Mr t__:^)
Ed Alfonsin wrote:
"Does the use of a new card in DC mean that they will now have an "expiration" date like the NY and Chicago cards? One of the good things about both DC and San Francisco from the start has been that you can carry those cards for years and they are still usable. It can be a time-saver at places like National Airport in DC not to have to go to a machine, put down luggage, and dig for bills or change to get a card. But if they're "improving" things by stopping that, I can only guess that the loonies at the MTA have exported their stupidity."
"I still think that the whole notion of having pre-paid cards expire is thievery. No one has ever given me a reasonable explanation why the cards should expire, other than for the TA to rip people off to get additional income for services not rendered. Currency and stamps don't expire and the cards are are similar, except that a different amount can be deducted if fares change. And the DC and BART cards let you know how much is on the card--you can look at it at home without having to go all the way to a subway station."
"People have said that an expired card can be mailed to the TA. Would anyone in his or her right mind trust the TA to acknowledge receipt, let alone issue a new card? I think they depend on people being unwilling to spend two or three dollars for certified mail when the card balance is $5 or $6. I wouldn't be surprised if they also charge for postage and handling. When someone lives several hundred miles from the City, it's almost impossible to handle."
No, it isn't. You can trade expired cards for up to year at the Agent's booth or at a MetroCard machine. Mailing cards to the MTA is safe (I don't know why you think First Class Mail is so bad). I had to mail twice in the last 5 years, and once I got one as a refund for a bad transfer by calling, I mailed nothing. Either way, I got my cards within 2 weeks.
"A while back, I heard some discussion about an initial difficulty with the DC card--it was deducting value whether you intended it or not. Apparently if you even walked near a turnstile with the card in your pocket, it got activated and WMATA got your money. If that's still the case, what happens if you go to a subway booth to get maps or information and then want to enter at another station (or get on a bus, when that part of it is put into effect)?"
Well, I assume that the system doesn't work out of pocket and requires you to take it out and hold it close to the reader.
"Those cards are supposed to work like the E-Z Pass, though with E-Z pass, you can at least take it off the windshield if you don't want your account charged--you might need a receipt immediately, for example."
You have to put it in a static bag in order to make sure it's not read. Even if it's in the glove compartment.
"Chicago just stopped using tokens completely--do they still take cash? And what's the status of unused tokens? A cash gift to the CTA or can they be redeemed?"
I don't know what Chicago does, but when NY changes the tokens for fare hikes, they can be replaced with new tokens at the booths for a few months. After that you bring them to TA HQ.
"There are times I think that the Luddites were right."
There are times when I think YOU are wrong.
"And the DC and BART cards let you know how much is on the card--you can look at it at home without having to go all the way to a subway station. "
Most BART fare gates either print the amount of money left in invisible ink, or on top of the old amount, so you still have to put the ticket in a ticket macine to see how much is left on it.
I know what you mean. The new fare gates at the extenstion stations are nice though. It think they use an ink jet to print. I think they are planning to replance most of the fare gates in the future as part of thier upgrade program.
Monday's Daily News (last week 6/7) had an article on page 8 with photos of four proposed NY State Quarters due out 2001.
Did I miss a prev. post on this ? Mr t__:^)
Yes - search back a bit and you'll find it. As you noted, it is just a proposal at the present time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Was on vacation this past week (June 7-11), so I'm just now back on the computer. I had a great time on the Newark City Subway trip; it's too bad those 1940s-vintage cars won't be with us too much longer. It was great to see everyone again and exchange ideas, opinions and observations. Looking forward to the next trip.
On Monday, I went up to Port Jervis and finally got a train all the way after two bus-at-Suffern-aborted attempts. They're redoing the Hoboken waiting room and it's a good thing I got there an hour before the 9:00 via Bergen. There's just a wooden temporary trailer, and there were about thirty people ahead of me, probably owning to the fact that it was the first Monday of the month and everyone was getting their monthlies. The trip was great with lots of rural scenery and good speed until we hit signal trouble and crawled from Campbell Hall to Middletown. Interestingly, there are no crossings after Tuxedo. Usually that only happens on 'main lines' leased or owned by Amtrak. We got to P.J. about twenty minutes late which reduced dwell time two forty-five minutes. I had intended to walk over the bridge to Pennsylvania, but even if I had more time, it was HOT!!! Isn't it always supposed to be colder in Orange County? A radio station based in Middletown reported a noon temperature of 93.
On Thursday, I got a full consist R42 on both outdoor ends of the 'N'. Those cars really get up to decent speed, even where the stops are close together along 31st Street and the Sea Beach. Of course, this is territory normally trod on by the 68s, so anything would seem fast. The 42's performance on the 4th Avenue express run was far superior to the 68As on the 'B'.
Yesterday, the offspring and I attempted to get anywhere in Manhattan not tied up by the parade. Forget it! Even the corner of Columbus & 91st was hopelessly gridlocked. While we waited for an uptown '6' at 59th, an empty '4' came halfway into the station, stopped for about three minutes, backed up a little, sputtered, coughed, belched, then proceeded uptown into the tunnel and stopped again, causing the '6' that followed it to sit in the station with doors open long enough to let on about three thousand drunken paradegoers. When we did move, I then noticed the same wayward '4' on the opposite (downtown) track at 68th. My son kept asking what was going on. I could only say "One of those crazy subway things you just can't figure, my boy."
We got Slants both going from and coming into Ditmars, so it was a very fulfilling day.
Back to work-
Yesterday, I saw a nice polo shirt with a NYC subway print.
The shirt was black and white with the map showing the portion from about 110th St through 145th St in Harlem.
Has anyone else seen something like this?
I saw one with Crown heights and Bed Stuy in the back grond. It was a Notorious B.I.G. shirt. The trains reprsented were the A,C,G,S and 2,3,4,5
I was wondering since there is rush hour service for the M aLONG THE WEST END LINE, why not have it run all the way to essex instead of just to chambers? also the M trains on the Broadway section are composed of R40s I was wondering if this was the same for the other half on the west end or are they still using the R40m and R42?
R40M & R42 cars are running on the Bay Pkwy. to Chambers portion of the M. Because all trains must enter Essex St. middle to turn, having both the M and shuttle share the middle track would not be a wise operational idea.
Is it just me or are there more R-40M's on the Q line (brighton express) lately?
And less on the N.
And the Slants are making more appearances on the "N"?. I saw no Slant on the "N" on June 4th, and no R40M on the "Q" then either. Things may have changed in the last ten days. I was told there was at least one renegade R40M on the "Q" on or before June 4, but I did not see it that day.
Wayne
Yeah it's me again.. Turns out I saw at least 4 renagade R-40-M's on the Q line today. The N Line had no R-40M's... What are you talking about? All I've ever seen on the N was the standard compliments of R-40's (slant end) and R-68's (newer cars), and R-36's (Streamliners). So where have these R-40M's come from? They probaly came from the now shortened "M" lines (Broadway/Myrtle Av local). What do you say?
During the first few weeks following the closing of the Willy B, there were quite a number of R-40M/R-42 trains on the N, with a significant decrease in Slant R-40's. Those R-40M/R-42's did come over from the Eastern Division. Some are, no doubt, being used on the Bay Parkway - Chambers St rush hour M.
Nothing but slants on the N train yesterday, and I saw only 2 R68s, and one R32 that was in the yard.
They must be doing that to annoy the "N" line manager, who happens to dislike the Slant R40. That won't win them any brownie points in my book :o)
Wayne
No doubt they are swapping cars back and forth between the "N" and the "Q". Like I said, much can change in the course of eleven days.
Here are the R42 and R40M "N" I saw on June 4:
4462-3, 4918 (repaired)-9, 4924-5, 4872-3, 4926-7
4934-5, 4896-7, 4938-9 (both repaired), 4948-9, 4886-7
4900-1, 4888-9, 4870-1, 4878-9, 4872-3.
Wayne
"All I've ever seen on the N was the standard compliments of R-40's (slant end) and
R-68's (newer cars), and R-36's (Streamliners)."
I think you meen R-32's (Brightliners) - R-36's are IRT equipment.
subfan
Yeah... keep forgetting what's what. Well, I asked a few operators and conductors and they seem to agree that they added some service to the line and it just turns out that these were old cars that just happened to be "lying around the yard."
The R-32s may be old, which is a relative term in my book, but they still run like new. Of course, I remember them when they were, in fact, new, which means I must be getting old.
They still looked better with blue doors.
Today at Bowling Green there was a TA employee handing out TVM information booklets and telling everyone they would be active tomorrow (6/15)
What are TVMs?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
The ATM type machine is actually called a MVM (MetroCard Vending Machine). Mr t__:^)
I intend to spend my lunch break taking a look and playing around with them...
-Hank
Well, I just got back in. For trying out the machine, I got a free Cloisters card holder.
Anyhow, the machine seems fairly simple to use. All the info gets displayed in large type, and the touch screen limits mistakes. Simply hit the part you need. Incidently, the touchscreen is a seperate unit from the video monitor, so replacement of the damaged componants is easier (and cheaper!)
I got a reciept, which I will scan when I have a chance, that has printed on it the orignal value, serial number, and card type. The 'address' of the machine in R200A 0701, and is MVM 0230. Every marking on the machine is in large type, and also in braille.
-Hank
My Cubic Engineer source admitted that you can in fact impress your friends by buying a MC in a foreign language since once you learn the steps they're the same in all languages.
He was impressed at how quickly we knew the two new stations (Bowlinng Green & Jay St). I told him that they can't do anything anywhere in the World without us SubTalkers knowing about it .... he he he
Mr t__:^)
There was an "N" train pulling out of Union Square that had a "Y" on the back end in the electronic route display.
R-32 cars have all 26 letters on them in addtion to blank and 0 thru 9.
It's not uncommon for some rascal to put X or Y on them :-)
I rode this train on Friday (with the Y on the south end) from 8th St. to Cortlandt St.
I'm curious, when people post about these mismarked trains, it always sounds to me like they are asking "is there really a Y train?" Obviously these are either broken signs, or changed by some miscreant/railfan, or lazy operators forgetting to check/set them.
On Saturday the 5th I was coming back from Yankee Stadium on the Hippo train (I mean the D) and across the platform at 145th was a train of R32 or R38 cars (wasn't really paying attention) that had a couple cars signed as "K" (white in blue circle). Some people wanted to transfer to the local (and that was obviously it) but they said "don't get on that train it's a K train". I couldn't help but to snicker.
-Dave
HOLY COW! Passengers that actually pay attention to the signs!
I know there really isn't a "Y" train :)
What's even dumber is these people will stand in the doorway, holding it open until someone finally tells them there is no K train. Like the train is their personal taxi ...
That K Train was in honor of the Rocket if he ever gets his "stuff" back that is!!
I think the K was either a late night local or rush hour train on 8th Avenue at one time. It also went from 57 St. and 6 Ave. to East New York.
The K was what the AA was re-named when the double letters were eliminated in 1985, as well as the rush hour service via 6th Ave./Willy B. back in the early 70's. The route was discontinued in December 1988 and replaced with expanded C service.
I saw (in 1997) a "Q" train, #3918 to be exact, with an "O" in its front sign. I did a double take, thinking it was dirty glass obscuring the tail of the "Q", but, no, it was an "O".
Wayne
Probably was a put in, the motorman put it up as a joke like "Y won't this train stop here ?" as it ran lite from City Hall Yard to Astoria perhaps, and simply forgot to change the sign to N when it got to the terminal.
Major service increase on the B44 Saturday 33% ammong the changes is limited service increases to a 10 minute headway all day and runs earlier and later. And more late evening service Every 15 minutes till 1230am Sunday North and 130am South.
Today marks the first day of the Chicago Avenue subway station renovation on the CTA's Red Line.
The Station will remain open during the renovation, but the repairs will take until around fall of 2000.
I'm not sure of all the details because the CTA hasn't put up anything about it on their web site, but here is what I heard in a news report:
The station is the 4th busiest in the entire system and the mezzanine (Fare- Payment) level will be widened and doubled in space. Elevators & Escalators will be added to make it fully handicapped accessible, it will be cleaned and grafiti resistant tile will be added like Roosevelt and State, the platforms will be changed to granite
( I think that's the substance they said, I could be wrong), and information kisoks will be added.
The station will remain open during the renovation and State street will be closed for the first few months between Chicago & Superior until September of this year and the project will continue until the fall of next year.
The entire project will cost 23 million dollars.
If you heard anything else or have comments please post them.
BJ
"L" station may be misleading -- the entire Chicago rapid
transit system is often referred to as the "L." but the
Red Line station to be renovated is in the State Street
Subway, not the "real" elevated station about half a mile
west on Chicago Avenue, served by the Brown and Purple
Lines.
Reportedly one block of State Street, between Chicago and Superior Streets, will be closed through about September 1 in connection with the station renovation.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
[Today marks the first day of the Chicago Avenue subway station renovation on the CTA's Red Line.]
I have not heard, nor do I really get a chance to ride the Red Line often. As I work at Adams & Wacker and live in the vicinty of Belmont/Sheffield, I use the Brown/Purple Line elevated trains vs. the Red Line subway trains. I venture onto the Red Line only when I have to. The service, on what used to be CTA's premier line, is mediocre at best today. Crowds and long waits in the rush hours prevail.
The Chicago/State Station is a very heavily used station as it is close to Michigan Avenue shopping and other Chicago landmarks. $23 million is a good deal of money to spend on one station. Isn't the price tag for rebuilding the entire Douglas Park structure only in the high $300 millions? At this price, no wonder the CTA is looking for $5.5 billion over the next five years.
I hope they, the designers and CTA, are successful in making the station more "open". One of the problems with the WPA financed State and Dearborn Street subways are you, or at least I do, feel claustrophobic when in the stations. These stations are crowded and cramped.
It is good news to hear. I’ll have to make it a point to venture over there some Saturday to check things out.
Jim K.
Chicago
Mr. Kramer:
I have just the opposite feeling that you have. I like riding trains and being in stations when they are at their most crowded and fullest.
Many people disagree with me and say that they hate it because of all the people and the ease for pickpockets and purse snachers. I don't really worry about this since I don't carry much money and don't think purse snatching is a problem on the CTA.
I suppost you wait around after a CUBS game if a trip on the L and the Addison street station is necessary.
The only problem I find is with the CTA's Brown Line policy on Sunday's. When there is a Cubs game just getting out and train are packed out of Addison and then all the passengers off a 6-car brown line train also try to squeeze into a Red Line train at Belmont just one station away.
They should either run the Brown Line trains Express the loop in this case or have Red Line trains skip-stop Addison & Belmont after the CUBS games. Just for the one hour period after when half of the park is taking the red line south-bound this can be a real problem.
BJ
I was a Skidmore Owens and Merrill about a year ago and they had mock up's of State Street subway renovations at that time. I have not heard anymore for a while. I will see what I can find out.
Joe
Steve:
I know this isn't suposed to happen. So since I also knew that you and Jeff would promptly tell me I was somehow mistaken, I took steps to be sure of what I was saying.
This past week, I worked with a fine motorman. He makes very smooth stops. By manipulating the master controller handle on the fine notch between coast and minimum brake, he can get around 200 amps of dynamic. Smooth, and easy.
Problem is, there's NO SAP pressure.
I know this shouldn't be. If there's no air at the voltage transducer for dynamic, how is the dynamic active? To test this, I even opened the control breaker while it was braking. Sure enough,the 5 wire de-energized and the dynamic went away. But there was still no SAP pressure. I checked from both my cars in the middle. I looked from the rear(we took a train to layup every night last week) and from the lead car.
I had three trains a day for five days, that's 15 trains. Each and every one performed as such.
WHY?
Only thing I can think of is that the cams in the brake vavle were adjusted to close the switch to the #5 trainline as soon as the controller is moved to min brake. That and the control group was modified to go into brake as soon as the #5 wire gets voltage.
Second question is for what purpose?
I figure so dead cars won't squeal. If the train already has a lot of brake at min service, most train operators wont see a need to increase demand. A dead car will continue to roll free, and quiet. It seems plausible considering the rate curves were changed a while back. The equipment now slows down faster for a less amount of SAP. You dont need a lot of pressure to get a heavy brake. Ask a train operator. Go from coast to min brake and it feels like your'e getting 40 PSI, instead of just a little.
It's not a safety issue, but it would nice to get a good explaination of what has become apparent.
I can't believe it! You actually worked with a fine motorman! LOL
When a subway car is placed in coast, the controller, because of back-spotting, sets up for braking. Since the traction motors are turning, they begin to generate a 'coasting' current. Nominally, this should be between 50 - 75 Amps per leg. Since the dynamic brake micro-switch is on a cam at the top of the master controller, and due to tollerences in the switch actuator, I suppose that the switch can be energized a few deqrees in advance of the notch. Therefore, the 5 wire may, on some master controllers, be energized 'early'. The rest is a pure guess since I do not have the controller schematic in front of me bit I would guess that a glitch in the logic permits the coast current to be interpretted as a dynamic current under these circumstances.
Normally a field shunt is used to cut the braking effort for coasting. Is this the method used in NYC?
Yeah. On the GE SCM equipment, the drum winds up in the same
position after shut-off as if you were starting up, i.e. with
maximum field shunting. Voltage on 5 wire removes the hold signal
and allows the drum to notch back through the dynamic braking
notches, under control of the current limit set up by the SAP
transducer.
that coincides with my original posting #39139 as well as I have been noticing that for years on poorly adjusted ME A=43 brake valve equipped cars as well.
that coincides with my original posting #39139 as well as I have been noticing that for years on poorly adjusted ME43 brake valve equipped cars as well.
The only GE SCM manuals I have handy are for the R-62, as
delivered. They say that as far as the SAP transducer for
the dynamic brake is concerned, 0-10 psi is all the same:
minimum brake.
During coasting, energized 3 wire causes the KM drum to hold
in position 17, with the dynamic brake loop set up but fields
shunted 50%. Braking effort will be minimal and current will
be 50-100 amps or so. There is no spotting "follow-up" unlike
some other forms of dynamic brake control and the KM drum will
stay in notch 17 with full resistance in the brake loop.
When 5 wire is energized, this presents a run signal to the
KM drum. It leaves 17 and works down towards 1 under control
of the rate circuits which are acting according to the straight
air pipe pressure and the load sensor. Fields are un-shunted as
soon as it starts to run down, giving braking effort.
Each of the braking notches 1-16 cuts out a little resistance from
the braking loop to maintain the desired rate current as speed
decreases.
When the KM drum reaches notch 1 AND the current limit relay drops
out, then dynamic braking has reached the end of the line. The
braking loop is opened up and the KM drum runs back up to coast
(notch 17) in preparation for re-application of power.
According to these docs, you certainly would get min brake with
just 3 and 5 energized and 0 SAP.
Harold and I were up at TMNY this sunday. There are only two doorways and one body section left to be sanded and painted. In two weeks we will return on saturday. I hope to complete the work then.
Almost there. Floor and roof, and were done!
Erik and Harry,
Keep it going, will ya! It's amazing what 2 gentlemen can do when they put their hearts to it. I want to see this car. I'll tell you what would be cool. When you folks get done with the electrification, put a trolley pole on top of 6398 and let her fly! Just a thought....
-Constantine
Stef....no wire at Kingston yet! But I know Erik plans to put
up the pole when the time comes....he came by Branford a few
years ago for a consultation with Dr. Ted on how to run the wire.
Erik, if you're reading this, here's a new finding on that issue:
there'll be one pair of bolts kinda close to the pole base plate.
Use non-conductive bolts! :)
Stef, one quick question. When the heave cable comes from the knife switch box to the bulkhead of the car how did you make that sharp turn into the conduit? Did you run the cable into a large loop or cut it and join the ends with ring terminals. The cable we are using is way too stiff and if we looped it would take up 2 to 2 1/2 feet of cable to give 90 degrees. Thanks
It's Jeff, not Stef, actually. I'm pretty sure Ted did not
run the downlead cable directly into the main switch box.
He opened the T lead disconnects on each truck. On one end
the dangling ends were taped up. On the other end, the lead
on the carbody side was connected to the trolley lead and
well insulated with rubber, friction and vinyl tape.
For all the under-car work, he used 3/4" sealtight, not conduit
or EMT. We are also using stranded cable which bends more easily.
Sorry, Harry. Unfortunately, I don't have Jeff's expertise in these matters. I've only been volunteering at BERA for the last few months, so how much could I possibly know? You could say, I'm an observer just soaking all of this in.
I might be able to help out with the historical stuff. Mechanics? Eh, well... Check with my pal Jeff H., who really knows how to make something go!!!
Still, when the electrification project at TMNY is done, I STILL want to see 6398 fly. Fly 6398, fly!!!!
-Constantine
Worry about electrification after fixing the trackwork first!! It's ghastly!!
Hey, R7ofR9, Next time you are in Syracuse, see me, I'll give you a spike maul and some tie tongs, maybe a track wrench, then you'll be equipped to do something about that "ghastly" track. Until then...
R7 of R9, let me say this: I haven't been to Kingston yet, although I might consider it sometime in the future to see how the other Trolley Museums outside of Branford operate. At this point, I won't really comment on the condition of the track because I haven't seen it. BUT, I will say that what you want and what you can have are two different things.
I've learned quite a bit since I started coming to Branford. In the last week or so, I've had to realize some things, perhaps doing some "growing up". As a young railfan and train buff at the tender age of 23, I got to say I'm ambitious. It is my desire to see numerous things done at Museums like Branford. However, that cannot always be the case! You have to make due with the resources that are available. Train parts, track materials, and various other things that make a Railway Museum tick all go together like a jigsaw puzzle. Those materials aren't always available, so it may be possible to come up with substitutes. Even then, the substitutes aren't always available. As a result, it becomes harder to maintain a particular aspect of the Railway Museum. You need $$$ for the materials, which the funds aren't always sufficient. What about manpower? There isn't enough manpower to go around, I'm afraid. Give guys like Harry and Erik a helping hand and contribute to making things better. If you can contribute, as a result you will get an everlasting satisfaction.
In a previous message about a subway car that I was working on, I expressed frustration over the fact that there weren't enough people to go around, making my job a lot more difficult. Then I got into a discussion with a respected friend who made me open my eyes and realize that you have to be grateful for what's out there. In no means have I given up on life or my hobby (the night I wrote the message, I was really stressed because of personal matters).
So the question I pose to you is this: Is something difficult really a bad thing? Absolutely not!!!! If anything, I would have to say the difficulty becomes an interesting challenge. Guys like Harry and Erik didn't give up on a car project because they are the only ones doing it. Instead, they became even more determined to finish with their beloved project. I'll take a cue from them and from my respected friend to work even HARDER to get something done and make a difference in this world of railway preservation.
Again, if you think the track is ghastly, why don't you go up and help the gang to make things right?
-Constantine
R7ofR9, I love that nickname. I can just imagine you saying:
"We are MTA. You will be delayed. Complaining is futile"
Thank's guys;
Mr R7ofR9, it's easy to talk the talk. So I'll give you the opportunity to walk the walk. TMNY has some track problems, so come up with Harold and I. We'll even give you the ride up. Then you can install some of those new gauge rods lying in the barn waiting to be put in. We will supply you all the tools and even liquid refreshment. Well? Going to provide excuses or results?
Good one, Eric!
Erik: I wonder if any thought has been given to using your R-16 in service as a backup to the gas electric. I realize that it would have to be hauled by your diesel. I have made several trips to TMNY over the years and more then once have found that despite the best efforts of the staff the gas motor was not running. Since many travel great distances especially with kids they tend to look forward to a "train ride." I realize that a subway car hauled by a loco in the Catskills might be somewhat incongruous but it would be better then no train at all.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I made the same suggestions to Mike Hanna. He's the only one who can operate that diesel. Since he's not around as often as we'd like, it aint happening.
120 runs fairly well. Harold and I give it a fair amount of work and it doesn't break down often. It does overheat occasionaly.
Most often the reason it doesn't run is because there's no one there to operate it.
Let me know next time your'e going up and I'll make sure it's all there.
Why not pull a car loaded with forklift batteries or a generator other museums have done this in the past to provide power when they had no trolley wire or (as in this case), third rail.
Up at TMNY, in Kingston NY we have a BMT Q car. It's only
one car of the three car unit. It's in pretty bad shape.
The good and bad of it, is that the car is constructed of
wood. Bad because it rotted out in the rain. Which is why
after we finish 6398, we're turning our attention to it.
Good because wood is easy to work with and cheap.
Now the ends of this car are steel. Rust has eaten away
much of the lower reaches. Also because it was one of
three (you younger folks: think R-44/46) it has controls
only on one end.
On the drive home last night, Harold and I discussed the
posibilities for this car. We both favor reverse
engineering the car, ala the NYCTM BU cars. It would make
restoration easier. I like it, because it would be a much
older lookng car for the collection. Harry says the steel
is too hard to deal with.
What about color? Or interior appointments? Unerneath it's
all there. Mike Hanna has spare controllers and brake
valves. He want's to make the car double eneded. Decidedly
un-prototypical. But needed to run both ways on the
museum's line. The switch boxes and fans and lights are
all either gone or no longer servicable. I'd replace it
all with modern (safe) wiring and fixtures. There are
museum people who would fight meonthat one. Originality is
holy to them. The doors and their engines are frozen in
place. Another argument in favor of "BU izing."
The way I see it, is you have a car, run it. Or display
it. But don't make the restoration unnecesarily dificult
or expensive just to make it original. I'd rather see it
run with circuit breakers (hidden) than sitting collecting
dust with fuses.
The roof is amazingly intact too. We have marker lights and whistles. Probably going to have to substitute a brake gauge from an R-1/9. Any body know where I can locate one?
Q car one that is.
Seats are all rotted out, but we can make those up. Windows will all have to be re made. From scratch. Having just built a piece of furniture sat. I'm psyched up to get cracking on that Q!
Any one care to join?
Go for it. There would be some discrepancies between what the this converted BU would look like and what it was back at the beginning. The roof is a perfect example. Q's have lowered roofs, unlike the BU's. I'm sure you wouldn't modify the roof. What about marker light placement? The present arrangement is for the Qs during their run on the 3rd Av El. How do you deal with that?
Assuming that not too much of the wood is lost, you should be able to replace the rotted out parts with no problem. You may as well take out the steel since it has rusted away.
Nevertheless, this is a worthwhile project, provided that you can get all the parts needed. Just make sure when you're done working on the car, you shelter from the elements if at all possible.
Cheers to a Successful Restoration!
Constantine
Barn space is probably going to be a fair sized war. There are two cars inside now. A Brooklyn Peter Witt, and an Atlantic City car that are way beyond restoration. I know that asking that they be at least moved, or preferably scrapped, is going to start a problem.
But there's no way I'm going to restore a wooden car outdoors!
Well, you certainly could do this and create some
sort of rail car that might have existed in some
alternate universe.
In my opinion, the decision to "de-Q" the 3-car set which
is in the NYTM's collection was unfortunate from a museum
standpoint. It would have been better to preserve the set
for what is was: a 3-car set of late-model Qs. As such they
had significance in being the last wood-body rail cars operated
in regular passenger service in the US. They should have left
the set alone and picked one of the singleton Q's for
making into a BU.
Oh well, what's done is done. To do the job right with
1602A would be very expensive. First, what trucks does that
car currently have and what traction motors?
Wood may seem cheaper and easier than steel, but you'd be surprised
how much good wood costs and how hard it is to do a craftsmanlike
job with it. If you want to illustrate a BU car, it should reflect
the level of quality and hand-craft that was typical of that period.
There is a lot of difficult woodwork ahead. You're going to
have to fabricate side sheathing, window sash and a bunch of trim
after you pull out the side doors.
OK, you've read up on all the Time-Life woodworking books and
you've gotten those things done. Then you get to fabricate a
COMPLETE clerestory roof from SCRATCH. Oh, let's not forget
a pair of end platforms. There's the small matter of a 10"
crown beam at the end of the car which is certainly rotted away
by now (a design flaw of BU cars that has plagued Branford's
collection). Do you have the platform gates?
I would recommend leaving 1602A as a Q. Whatever happened to
those 3 cars that were in Coney Island? Did they get scrapped?
If you're worried about running the car, putting a controller on
the back end isn't such a heresy. Of course, with a little creativity
you could M-U that car with one of your Lo-Vs or R1-9s.
Do you know that there is three BMT Q at South Brooklyn Yard???
Oh, they are still there. OK. I was wondering what the story
was with that bunch. They are on the scrap list.
I don't know why they there and maybe MTA didn't want to scrap the BMT Q. But i have a picture of BMT Q and i took it last month
Thanks Jeff;
The car still has the propulsion gear it was retired with, and those Headley (IRT) trucks. The motors haven't been meggered, so I don't know if they're workable. If not we're in for some major trouble.
I really didn't want to get into re-raising the roof to it's original clerestory height. My idea for reverse engineering the car was really to save trouble. I see you think then that leaving the car as is is a better idea.
Platform gates could be fabricated easily. Our next door neighbor in Kingston is an iron works. I'd draw up plans from the BU cars in the NYCTM. I'm not sure getting those big single panel doors to work is easier than fabricating wood sides.
I don't know what a crown beam is. Tell me exactly where to find it so I can check. Mike rolled out some tar paper on the car's roof. It's done a fair job of keeping it dry. When I looked last week It seemed pretty goood.
I like the idea of MU-ing cars. Mike is getting our Lo-V into shape, so it could work.
The Q set from Coney Island is in miserable shape. Harold and I checked it out a few years ago. The brakes function, but they were converted to work cars and have no MU equipment on them. Scrap is really all that's left for them.
Just in case you are curious some of the rest of us are reading with interest the comments from Jeff, Mike, Stef & yourself. Thanks for sharing on-line.
Mr t__:^)
Well, the relative ease or difficulty in these restoration
tasks depends on the level of quality you desire, and which
words in the phrase "The Trolley Museum of New York" you
value. You can certainly build an end platform out of 2x4
planks and the sides with texture 111 ribbed plywood sheets
from Home Depot. In the process, you remove original artifact
content and replace it with work of poor authenticity.
That might seem a trivial concern, but remember your museum
holds that car in its collection, in a sense, in the public's
trust, much as say the Museum of Natural History is entrusted
with preserving and interpreting its fossils. If you destroy
the artifact, or more importantly the information that the
artifact contains, future generations will never be able to recover
it. That's why I consider it one level of minor heresy to add
something unauthentic to a car, e.g. putting the wrong trucks
under a car body to make it run, or adding a backup controller
where there was nothing. But making major modifications to the
car is a much more serious offense unless they are performed
properly. Who is the curator at TMNY?
The car has value as a Q car. It's too bad there isn't another
viable Q available to make a QX set out of it. Do you know
the fate of the 3 Q cars that were in the scrap line? I had
heard a claim by a young man who said he purchased them for $1
a piece. He also said that all of the control and brake equipment
had been removed. It would be a shame if those parts were not
saved...I hope at least Mike got some of that.
The crown beam is a huge arc-shaped piece of wood which forms the end
of the car. The coupler is hung from it and the posts forming the
support for the roof section over the vestibules would also be
attached. When the Qs were converted from 1200s and 1400s
the original beams were replaced. In order to back-date the car
you'd have to make up new beams with the correct dimensions.
< Well, the relative ease or difficulty in these restoration
tasks depends on the level of quality you desire, and which
words in the phrase "The Trolley Museum of New York" you
value. You can certainly build an end platform out of 2x4
planks and the sides with texture 111 ribbed plywood sheets
from Home Depot. In the process, you remove original artifact
content and replace it with work of poor authenticity.
That might seem a trivial concern, but remember your museum
holds that car in its collection, in a sense, in the public's
trust, much as say the Museum of Natural History is entrusted
with preserving and interpreting its fossils. If you destroy
the artifact, or more importantly the information that the
artifact contains, future generations will never be able to recover
it. That's why I consider it one level of minor heresy to add
something unauthentic to a car, e.g. putting the wrong trucks
under a car body to make it run, or adding a backup controller
where there was nothing. But making major modifications to the
car is a much more serious offense unless they are performed
properly. Who is the curator at TMNY? >
You can make a separate argument for saving a "Q" as a "Q.". But what exactly is "authentic." Wooden cars, like wooden buildings, were always having parts upgraded and replaced--especially the wood. I doubt very much of the original surface wood exists from c1907. I recall Q-types in service where some of the outside wood was a different color because it had been recently replaced. Even steel cars like the BMT Standards had canvas roofs which lasted only so long before new canvas was installed.
Is any replacement made after BMT ownership inauthentic? Is any replacement after TA ownership inauthentic? Is the TA's rebuilding of "Q's" to close to their original appearance inauthentic? If the TMNY "Q" is rebuilt to original BU appearance using original plans and the best match of original materials, I might call that restoration.
As to the point of the controls at both ends ... if the Q is resbuilt or restored to BU appearance, controls at both ends are quite authentic. I believe all motorized BUs had control at both ends originally.
The issue of authenticity in restoration of delicate artifacts
is a tough one.
Generally, the accepted principle is that you are going to restore
the car to time X, where X was some point in the service lifetime
of the car. In order to do that, the entire car has to reflect
what it was at time X. It's generally accepted within the
ARM world that to make a car with a 1910 exterior paint scheme,
1930s trucks and 1950s seating is to create something unauthentic.
Of course, there are "outs". You can document your unauthentic
choices so that the knowledge of what was supposed to be there
is not lost. You can put up a big sign that says: Although
this car is representative of a BU 1400 series car as it existed
in the late 1920s, it is mounted on trucks which the car carried
much later in life, due to unavailability of the original parts,
etc." We have an R-9 at Shore Line in which we will probably
keep the 1960s blue interior but leave one panel in green with
the City of New York lettering and an explanatory sign.
The worst thing anyone can do is make a change and not document it.
Unfortunately, documentation tends to get separated from the artifact.
Sometimes restoration work means reverse-engineering previous
restoration attempts. You can do some rough guesswork sometimes.
If I see type THHN wire in a switch group, I know that wasn't
original to the car:)
So, one should make an effort to carefully document the changes being
made and the historical justification behind them. If possible,
preserve the materials that were removed. Too often, some little
bracket or something is rotted and it gets replaced with an angle
brace from Home Depot and thrown out. Then 40 years later there's
simply no way of knowing what that part was supposed to look like.
Once information is destroyed, it's gone forever.
Any work that is done on the car should be done with the best
match of materials AND craft. The latter is very tough and
may even be considered an extremist position. A Sears circular
saw leaves very different tooling marks on the wood than a
hand saw.
When does a restoration become a replica? That's a tough
philosophical question. Railway vehicles are living artifacts.
When we interpret them by operating them, we consume them to
some small degree. You have to expect that certain components
are "consumables". For example, can we match the original
lubricants used with the car?! Certainly when the vehicles are
acquired after years of service, they are a hodge-podge of
modifications and kluges made by their owners.
In a way, the argument can be made that leaving a car exactly as
it came out of service is the only truly authentic means of
preserving it. When you back-date the car, you have to un-do
modifications that are part of the history of the car. You
effectively throw away that history.
A funny situation is presented by the NYCTA's handling of its
own museum fleet. Was the quasi-rollback of the museums BUs
authentic? Well, it was a modification performed by the (successor
to) the car's original owners. Same thing with the incorrect
maroon paint scheme of the "diamond jubilee" Lo-Vs.
These are all issues that are supposed to be hashed out in the
ARM recommended practices committees. It's a tough area.
The best advice to any museum is to document everything
carefully. Put yourself in the position of being another
volunteer 40 years from now trying to figure out what you did,
and ask yourself what means this person would have to do so.
Well put, Jeff. A lot of the decisions must be based on the intent of the restoration/rehabilitation. I'll cite an example from the automotive world here, but the concept is the same. Back when I was younger my father obtained a 1929 Ford Model 'A' that had been in the family since the early years of the Depression. During WWII it was modified by his Uncle Ray into a farm truck, initially to haul vegetables to market and later to haul manure. When Dad got it, after Uncle Ray's death, it was in deplorable condition. One of the doors had holes in it from where the spare tire had been bolted on, the original shift knob had given way to a wooden spool (from Aunt Ethel's sewing box, no doubt), it was on solid steel wheels from the late '40s, etc. Dad's intent was to create a "running restoration" of the car, not a showpiece. He rebuilt the original engine, modifying it internally with two extra water passages in the block (similar to those that Ford added in 1930) and an oil filter (Ford didn't start using them until the mid-'30s), he obtained the parts for a rumble seat (the car originally had a trunk, essentially all of which was removed during its conversion to a truck), installed a key in the ignition (an option which this particular car did not originally have), added a second taillight (another dealer-installed option not originally on this car), and (a couple of years later) replaced the mechanical brake linkage with a hydraulic system. He also installed seat belts. I learned to drive on this car, double-clutching and all (and was I ever glad when he changed the brakes!). It gave him the pleasure of driving a "fun" car that looked, at a glance, authentic, but which was also now practical to drive, since it was significantly safer and more reliable than originally. Had the intent been to restore the car to 100% authentic appearance, he could have done so, but only about 60% of the parts would have been original, and less than half the remainder would have been authentic Ford parts - the rest would have been reproduction. It would also have been a static display, not a running vehicle used for fair-weather commuting, weekend jaunts into the country, and the occasional parade, and wouldn't have been nearly as much fun - plus it wouldn't have given Dad nearly the opportunities that he had to discuss it with curious young children whose parents were even too young to really remember one (it always gathered a crowd when he drove it to the hardware store or the barber shop).
I miss that old car - Mother made Dad sell it almost 25 years ago when he was having some health problems. Wonder where it is now?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know museums must work valiantly with what they have, and that there is no excuse for fudging history if you can reasonably avoid it, but to me venue is also an important issue in trying to convey to the museum-goer the quality of a museum object.
To put it another way, I have less problem with the Transit Authority restoring a Q to BU appearance on inauthentic trucks, an inauthentic roofline and a control system battery from Manny, Mo and Jack, when that restored train can still operate on the Broadway-Brooklyn Line than I have with an R17 authentic to the last screw running through the Connecticut woods with a trolley pole.
How about BU's sitting in an IND subway station? When was the
last time those cars ran with passengers? Anyway, the
place to run a BU fantrip would be the corona/astoria lines,
a la dual service. I wonder if those low-roof BUs could clear
all the tunnels from Court St to the 60th st tubes?
You settle for what you can get, Paul. The various features of the BUs aren't accurate in every way, but it's better than nothing at all. Restoring a car to an original appearance 100% is in my opinion, would be almost impossible when you have to consider that the materials or parts may not necessarily be available. Certainly, an original BU would never clear the tunnels of the IND.
How much more can you do?
When comparing to the R17, it isn't as difficult to maintain, because there are parts for it still out there (most parts at least). Keep in mind that similar cars are still running. The only catch is that a trolley pole has to be fitted to make it run. That's fine. She runs and that's all that matters. At least folks get an idea of what the car is like in operation rather than being a static display.
The emphasis here is to make the cars (or anything else for that matter) closely resemble a piece of the past.
-Constantine
Thank you all. This is exactly what I had been hoping for, a free and open exchange of ideas and opinions for the subject.
TMNY has no curator, per se, but a president and various department heads. Much like a railroad would. Since it's really just Harold and myself doing the work, and funding it out of our own pockets. I don't want to take this too far. I have to balance the questions of authenticity against those of feasibility and operational practicality.
These questions didn't exist with 6389. As we purchased the car was basically how it ran for most of it's life. Headlights and a radio are so trivial to the cars appearance so as to mean very little. The door mods are quite different, but as I have said before, it was something that they had for the final 15 years of their service life. They also are easier to service, and replacing them was just too difficult to warrant the change. Besides, it was something unique to R-16's.
Q cars as retired did not have controls on both ends. So to operate a single car with a degree of safety and for ease of control, we plan on installing a second set of controls. Mike Hanna has saved an extra brake valve and controller. He also has an extra set of door controls and and marker/tail lights. This would make the car decidedly un-authentic. But that's the only way to run it. Should we spend all that time and money making a static diplay? Or should we sacrifice some historical accuracy to give future generations an opportunity to ride the fine old equipment?
De-conversion to BU is probably out of the question at this point because of finding the right way to go about it. But I also firmly believe in operating over authenticity. By going out of your way to find a bolt or a component that no one will see, or if they do, not know the difference, aren't you just making the work more difficult?
The NYCTM BU cars have Toshiba battery chargers, feeding their 24 volt cotrol system. Does that comprimise their authenticity? Yes. Does it really matter? No. Who else save Mike and a few others know? Mike couldn't find the authentic equipment, so he did the best he could.
I think that as long as the workmanship is good, and the car appears authentic, it will suffice. It's either that, or a job that takes so long and costs so much as to negate the cars value to the museums collection.
Erik, I certainly hope this doesn't sound critical of Kingston,
because it is not meant to be, and of course I understand that
your views are not necessarily the views of TMNY, etc., but
TMNY has no curator, per se, but a president
and various department heads. Much like a railroad would
is an example of immature thinking from a railway museum perspective.
That's not personal immaturity, it simply means that railway
museums go through phases, and that sort of reasoning is typical
of the phase where the museum views itself as some sort of
make-believe railroad.
I'm sure my colleagues at other operating railway museums such as
BSM and Seashore will know where I'm coming from. We've all been
through this phase at some point in the museum's history.
Remember, real railroads are in the business of making a profit
by hauling pax and freight. They don't give a rat's ass about
"museum cars" because, after all, those cars were junked because
they were worn out, difficult to maintain and obsolete.
There are tourist railroads which can make some money because the
ride itself is very interesting. Maybe they use historic cars,
maybe not.
Railway museums, though, eventually realize that they have to take
the word "museum" seriously. They must offer more than just
"a ride" to survive and grow. Moreover, to maintain 501(c)(3)
status, keep up good relations with the community, and attract
public and private grant money, they must be a museum which
provides an educational experience for the public and which
upholds its curatorial responsibilities.
As far as the operate/authentic issue, that's a murky one.
Yeah, I've used off-the-shelf TW/THHN wire to repair the
Lo-V rather than the much more difficult to acquire (and use)
rubber/cloth. We've substituted modern resistors for
impossible to replace defectives in the control system.
We even have a pair of Sears Marine Duty batteries in one of
the BU cars! I feel particularly dirty with that last one, because
in a sense it destroys some of the heritage of the car, namely
the routine maintenance of Edison storage batteries.
Speaking of which, a 24 V charger on the B-Q?s That's a 12-14
volt system. What happened to the original battery charging
relay and resistor in the compressor circuit? Certainly the
set must have had them when they were retired in 1969.
I don't think there's anything really sinful about putting another
controller/brake stand on the Q to make it operable. On the
other hand, why do you need marker lights or tail lights on that
end? Planning on running in the dark a lot? We just use portable
battery-powered lanterns for those types of moves.
Changes such as removing the side doors should simply not be attempted
unless you have the curatorial musclepower to back it up.
Ask someone from Seashore about the Gibbs car disaster!
Gibbs car; that's where they tried to remove the center door?
Marker and tail lights would only be to "round out" the look of the car.
I'm not offended. I don't run TMNY. As a matter of fact I have very little influence up there. 6398 is all I have. It's really Mike's show. From my point of view, there's a lot of junk up there. It detracts from the apparance of the museum. But I don't have any say in that.
The Q is my next project. So now well in advance, I'm trying to get all the planning together. Balancing practicality and feasibility against historical accuracy and asthetics.
I'm sure this will never fly with the board at Kingston,
but you should try to nab another Q body, maybe one of
the 3 that are in the scrap line at 2 Ave? This way you
could pull off a QX. At least it tries to illustrate
the Qs as a trainset. There was, after all, no such
thing as a single Q.