 | |
| |
I'm feeling nostalgic for the 70s.....some P-Wire
tech questions crossed my mind.
P-wire was a current-loop system, correct? I.e. the brake
command was transmitted by a constant current source controlled
by brake handle position. Was that done with a solid-state
circuit? What about the P-wire current sensors in each car?
If this is the case, shouldn't a little series resistance
in the loop not matter?
Steve mentioned dual P-wire loops. How did that work?
On NYCT R-44 & R-46, P wire varied from 0-1 amp. 0 = full service and 1 amp = release. It was controlled via a potentiometer in the active master controller. Each car had a circuit that recognized the P-Wire signal. On the R-44 it was the A-13 package (I believe) and on the R-46 it was the Westcode FL-85 package. Each of these units converted the P-Wire signal to an analog signal to release the brakes. Failure of either of these units would result in one car with stuck brakes or could also result in trainline stuck brakes. Naturally, any resistance or low battery voltage would also affect the brake operation.
The P-Wire loop would begin at the operating cab, run down one side of the train through the Electric portion, cross over at the open end and travel back along the opposite side of the train. On an 8 car train, therefore, there were 14 points where the P-Wire loop X'd an electric portion. By making a redundent P-Wire loop, each of those 14 points was replicated on the opposite side portion face. Therefore if on portion face had poor contact, the P-Wire loop remained in tact on the opposite side E/P. These were not so much redundent loops as they were redundent connections.
Of course, on the R-46 we also had:
A second (backup) P-Wire Generator.
A hostler with still another P-Wire generator.
A stuck Brake Bypass which could release the brakes (in power only)without P-Wire.
These are subjects for another day.
Is the P-wire a cable? What happens if it's cut?
P-Wire is not a cable as such. It is a DC circuit that travels the length of the train twice, hence referred to as a loop.
OK, that tackles the "redundant loop"..so you just doubled
up on the e/p pins that carried the P loop? Were the extra
pair of pins tied back at the junction box behind each coupler?
Now, what I didn't get is the nature of the P-wire generator
itself. Was it a true constant current source, or just
the battery in series with the pot and back down to ground?
Were the extra pair of pins tied back at the junction box behind each coupler?
The Redundency originated in the junction box at each end of the car.
Now, what I didn't get is the nature of the P-wire generator itself. Was it a true constant current source, or just the battery in series with the pot and back down to ground?
The P-Wire generator was a true constant current source. There were actually 2 on each 'A' car as originally configured. There was a toggle sw. on the rear bulkhead of the cab opposite the operator. Throwing the 'transfer switch' switched between the two generators. There was another circuit called the 'Stuck Brake Bypass' on the R-46s only. This was added in the mid 80s. In the case of a P-Wire Loss, the Train Operator could place the master controller in coast, push a button and the brakes would be released by applying battery voltage tot he FL-85 packages directly. The holding circuit would keep the brakes released as long as the train was in power or coast. If the operator went to the mini-brake position or beyond, the holding citrcuit would drop out, the feed tot he FL-85 Pkgs. would be removed and a full service brake would result. Obviously, this was only used for moving trains to the yard in the event of a P-Wire failure.
I do believe the R-44 had the bypass too. No transfer switch though. I think they had a key switch on the panel near the hand brake. was that their transfer switch?
Yeah, the 44s had a stuck brake bypass switch too. My train op P-wire book does not state anything about tranfer switches, presumably because car equipment didn't want us touching them instead of the console key operated bypass. It was a long time ago so I can't remember but if there was it would have been placed under the end sign box door somewhere.
Actually the transfer switch was under the radio bracket. The same place where the coupler control box is now located...
Oh that's what that bloody switch was for!
Now, my point about the constant current source. Resistance
shouldn't have been a problem until it reached the compliance
limit of the source. For a 1 amp full-release current, and
37.5 volts nominal, that means a maximum total loop resistance
of 37.5 ohms.
That's a pretty high maximum value current. In industrial control
apps, 4-20 milliamp current loops are standard.
Oh well, I hope they do better with the new tech trainline
networks. Did they finally settle on Echelon?
Just wandering the internet overnight, mostly cause I couldn't sleep in anticipation of my new job, I discovered GE Transportation Systems web page. Believe it or not, while they link to the official MTA site for info on their sales to the LIRR and MNCR, they link here for their NYC Subway sales.http://www.ge.com/transportation/prg/index.htm#PROP
-Hank
Another reason why GE is such a smart and successful corporation.
Well, to the dismay of my friends and family and utter confusion of my barber, I went to New York on Saturday 5/29 to ride the subway and take pictures exclusively. I was never hassled about taking photos although some riders gave me funny looks and a TA employee at Broadway/ Myrtle kept following me.
Anyway here's the rundown.
I started out from the Amtrak Madison Square Garden Basement. No one there was selling FunPasses, only the 7-Day Unlimited MetroCard. Since I was short on cash and only there for a day, I had to hotfoot it all the way to the visitors center at Broadway and 46th. I then walked to Times Square and began.
1. N from 42nd to QBP. It was a nice ride. I got a train of R-68's(a train of R-42's was leaving as I came down the stairs) and got some shots. Next I took a 7 and had the intention of riding all the way to Main Street but got off at 33rd Street instead. Of course, there's no crossunder, so I had to use my pass to get to the other side back to the city. When the train arrived I got the front window. Great skyline view! I was surprised that about 10 feet after we entered the tunnel we were in Hunterspoint Ave. Here in Philly you'll travel some distance when entering a portal before reaching the next station.
I took that train to 5th Avenue and got the B.
2. After giving directions to Tremont Avenue to several people(???) I took a B(more R-68's) to Lexington/63rd. After looking around, I proceeded up escalator after escalator(3 or 4) up to fare control and then had to take another flight of stairs to the street. Whew!
I bought a Coke and headed to Lexington/59th.
3. I got a dowtown 6 and headed for Union Square. Seriously curved platform. Seriously funky gap fillers. Seriously:). I then transferred and took my very first ride on the Canarsie line(only to 8th Avenue-but I wasn't done with it yet) to the A. I rode a train of R-38's to B'way/Nassau.
4. I left the subway here to walk to South Ferry. I was surprised at how desolate the area was. I was dowtown on the weekend in February, but it was raining. Saturday was sunny and "tres chaud" and it was still a ghost town. When I got to South Ferry I had to wait for a wave of tourists(literally a wave)to come up before I could go down. Took a 1 to Chambers Street, got some shots and boarded a 2 for the Bronx........
Has anyone noticed (especially here) that there arent too many complaints about the FunPass lately?? Could it be that it WORKS???
And-is fairly easy to find?? I would have LOVED to to see this site the day after Chrystie St opened.....(that is, if anyone had gotten home by then...)
I'm sure rail fans get more of their money's worth out of FunPasses than most other users. However, I'm still not pleased that you cannot buy them at token booths. I'm sure they'd sell more if they were available there. But as more of those vending machines come in, this won't be as much of a problem.
The FunPass has been working real well for me. My "record" is 11 swipes in one day, just doing normal things in and around NYC while there working. I now buy them on-line; you pay just face value and they're charged to your credit card. That way, I have the card available for "first use" when I hop on the Q-33 or M-60 at LaGuardia.
I've had no problem with the Fun Pass either; I used one 6 times on Saturday on my trip to the Cloisters and the Metropolitan (E @ WTC, A @ Penn Station, 1 @ 191st St, M86 Bus, M4 Bus, E @ Penn Station). I agree that they should be sold at token booths since a tourist will assume that's where they should buy their subway tickets. But for those of us "in the know" who know to buy them at newsstands it isn't such a big hassle. There are Hudson News stands all over the place after all. It is very convenient if you buy a few at a time (like 5 for $20) and keep the others handy for when you need them.
Am I mistaken, or is the MTA planning to eliminate the 18-minute "down time" on the FunPass and the Unlimited Metrocard soon?
I assume they've got to keep some "down time" on those unlimited ride FunPasses. Otherwise, one card could be used by more than one person, which would certainly not be good for MTA finances.
Right, and I think 18 minutes is fine, but why can't they make it like Philly, where the time limit is only at that station, not the whole system. I've used a FunPass and gotten stung by this - I got on the system, I got a train almost right away, I got off, I went up to surface to a take a picture, then went right back down. I was locked out - for no practical reason. If it had only locked me out at the station I swiped it at the first time, it wouldn't have been a problem, and no one could use it to let more than one person through.
In case of a lockout, just let the token booth clerk know that you need to re-enter the system, but that your Fun Pass has been locked out for the time being.
I should have tried that - I'll have to remember to do that if I find myself in that situation again in the near future.
There are plans to change the lockout so that it will apply on a same-station-only basis. That would apply to the 30- and 7-day unlimited use MetroCards, not just the Fun Pass. I don't know when this is scheduled to occur.
There's a big software update comming.
That's great news that the lockout will finally be same-station-only for unlimited-use cards. Will there be any other changes in how the system works resulting from the update?
When is the change in the lockout system set to occur?
The 18-minute "down time" is strictly for security purposes; to make sure than the Unlimited-Ride Pass is not used for illegal multiple entries. True, it is extremely unfair, to say the least, to lock the pass holder out of the entire system for 18 minutes. And I agree that such a restriction should be limited ONLY to the station the pass was used at. Here's another example of what I mean: in San Francisco, once a weekly or monthly pass is inserted into a Muni Metro faregate (which accepts coins, tokens and magnetic-stripe passes for fare payment), it cannot be re-used at that very station for a period of no less than 20 minutes. I learned this from my last visit to that most beautiful city (around August 23-31, 1995).
Hi; Does anyone have the progress report on the Recon? I understand that it is about 3-4 weeks ahead of schedule. Please confirm. Thanks.
Looks like most of the new track beams are up. There are still some missing sections on the Manhattan side. (I wonder why it will still take another 4 months; it looks over halfway done).
The new structure has been connected to the old over the bus terminal, and the curve has been graduated (eased) into 3 or 4 sections instead of the sharp single angle that was there before. So hopefully this barrier to 75 foot cars has been removed!
Isn't there still that S curve near Cypress Hills to restrict 75' cars?
Yes, the 75 foot long car won't turn the curves at Crescent Street and Cypress Hill. That's why the BMT had the standards at 67 feet long.
Well, if they can construct elevated this easily, and it seems they can, maybe they can just extend the El straight down Jamaica Avenue and reconnect it without such a sharp curve. They can connect it to the 14th St Eastern Line while they are at it.
The curve at CYPRESS HILLS has a gap in the center where a third track would have gone, and despite its tight radius, probably could take a 75-foot car. It's the one near Crescent that may be too tight (especially inbound). Also the curve leaving Myrtle Avenue is probably too tight, ditto near Graham Avenue on the "L".
The radius at Cypress Hills is probably no greater than north of Cortlandt Street, which 75-foot cars are able to negotiate.
Wayne
I grew up under that Crescent St curve and as a kid I ignorantly judged curvature by the screech of the wheels. Jamaica bound trains of 67 foot steels made a devil of a racket going around that curve. New York bound trains were relatively quiet in comparison. This never made sense to me since both tracks seemed to be aligned with each other. I worked in the bank right under that curve and several coworkers were convinced that someday we would get one of those cars in our laps. There was no catwalk on the outside of the Jamaica bound curve (at least not in those days) so if a motorman ever looked down he probably thought so too! He must have thought he was hanging in mid-air.
Karl B
The R27/R30 cars made an ungodly noise on that curve too, whereas the R7/R9 did not. The R1-R4-R6-R7-R9 cars weren't too prone to wheel noise, they rumbled rather than squealed. The R16s if I remember correctly would emit more of a hiss (more of a "thhhhh" sound). The R42s (as originally delivered)- they'd screech if the wheels weren't ground right. In any case, I'd always watch intently as the #15, "QJ", "KK", or "J" train rounded this bend.
My Mom calls Crescent Street the "wobbbly station". She remembers that the platform (before reconstruction) would sway as trains entered and left. I like the way they left the original ironwork supporting the roof shed intact there. They could use some period platform lights, though.
Wayne
It sure did wobble! It seemed to wobble when there wasn't even a train around. A friend told me once that Crescent St wobbled whenever a train stopped at Norwood Ave or Cleveland St. You say it has been reconstructed. Do you know when? I assume that the platform is no longer of wood construction. I can remember when there was a vendor selling papers, magazines and candy in that tiny waiting room. He had a very small (maybe three foot by six foot) stand in the northwest corner of the room. The one platform door would hit his stand if it was opened too far. The waiting room was heated by a potbellied stove which was only a few feet from the vendor. I often wondered what effect the heat from the stove had on the vendor's candy display.
Karl B
Its not that far ahead of schedule, and estimates this early in the project are meaningless anyway. The initial demolition and installation of new stuff goes quickly. There's still months of tedious work ahead to install new track panels in the confined structure of the bridge, reinstall power, signals, etc.
I am looking for info on what a condutor did in 1914 whom was employed by BRT. I am also interested in photos. Thank you!
I biked on Sunday along the Rockaway Peninsula. Starting from the Brooklyn Bikeway that runs along the Belt Parkway and ended at Bay 15th Street, Far Rockaway. (It was just too hot to go over the Atlantic Beach Bridge and do my annual Long Beach/Point Lookout ride).
Off topic a bit, but of interest to some of our fellow SubTalkers, was my observations of the area east of B 75th Street which is pretty much the beginning of what I refer to as the 'No Man's Land' area of Far Rockaway. Since I haven't been riding out here in almost two years I noticed something new that might also explain why development MAY NOT take place along a certain stretch of the beachfront -- from B44 to B57th streets I found the beach sectioned off with signage stating "Restricted Area: Piping Plover Nesting Grounds". On the boardwalk railing at regular intervales were Parks Department placards describing the migrating habits and other info on the Piping Plovers (what they look like I'm not sure). Apparently they use the sand dunnes along that part of the Rockaways to mate, nest, and raise their young. So, it would appear that that stretch of Arvene will not be touched so our 'coveted' sand-dunne pigeons can continue to breed. Go figure.
Three sections of the Rockaway beach were the only City beaches not to open this weekend. Giving the residents the Bird!
I imagine without the subway, Rockaway would be much less populated than it is currently. Most of the population on Rockaway is impoverished, and probably do not own autos. Even if they did, I don't imagine they'd want to pay the $1.75 toll on the Cross Bay. I actually think they should eliminate that toll, anyway.
All of this rambling is actually leading to two questions:
1) Why is the Rockaway el constructed out of concrete while all other els that I've seen are metallic?
2) How old is the el there?
For the same reason that most LIRR els are concrete. This used to be LIRR territory. The LIRR decided to sell to the city after a tresle fire suspended service. After reconstruction service opened to Beach 25 & 116 in 1956 and out to Mott in 1958. The line once extended east of Mott to connect to the current LIRR Rockaway Division. A double fare was charged on the line from 1956 to the early 70s. One paid two fares to enter, and one to exit. If you wanted to ride within the Rockaways, you would get a ticket from the agent for a free exit so you avoided a triple fare.
Jack is El Correctamondo -- your prize is in the mail ;-)
Actually besides the asethetics of concrete as opposed to a steel structure -- I am no expert on sonic vibrations -- but would assume that a concrete -- or more aptly, steel imbedded in concrete El -- has it's vibrations muffled by the concrete so a passing train makes less noise than that of a similar train running on an all steel structure.
Another reason for concrete on the Rockaway line -- with close proximity to the shoreline there is less to worry about in the way of rust and corrosion to the structure from the salt air.
Just my two cents, as usual.
Doug aka BMTman
An addendum to Jack's astute observation - the Rockaway viaduct was constructed in the early 1940s (I believe it opened in 1942). There are a few concrete elevateds in the NYCT system - Queens Boulevard #7 line from Van Damn Street to Roosevelt/Greenpt Avenue; IND "F" line from the Carroll Gardens portal to 9th St & 4th Avenue; also on the White Plains IRT - Bronx Park East and Pelham Parkway have concrete station entrances/fare control areas/mezzanines similar to the Queens Blvd IRT (the trackways are box-girder, however) - ditto East 177th-Parkchester and Westchester Square on the #6.
Wayne
I guess the concrete structured el muffles the sound of the rumbling trains above. I have no idea why only certain areas of subway lines have it. The 7 train in Sunnyside has the same structure format.
I actually like the steel framed structures better myself. All that concrete blocks your view.
The 8th AVENUE IND From Rockaway Blvd (Cross Bay Bl/Woodhaven Bl) To
Rockaway Park Or Far Rockaway, Most Stations and All Rockaway El's were former LIRR/BRT Rockaway Branch Before 1956 When The TA Purchased the Line And upgraded the track, singnals & Jamaica Bay Briges And Tressles For "elevaded" subway service.
So the infamous piping plover raises its ugly (though tiny) head once again. If indeed its nesting grounds are proving an obstacle to Rockaway development, this marks the second time its egg-laying habits have interfered with human enjoyment of the seashore, though in a rather different context.
About 10 years ago, there was a popular beach in Rhode Island called Moonstone Beach. Its popularity stemmed from the fact that beachgoers could enjoy the sand, sun and surf in their natural, Garden of Eden state. Living in Connecticut at the time, I knew of many people whose friends and relatives had patronized Moonstone Beach (funny, none of them ever admitted to having been there themselves ...) But then, piping plover nests were discovered in the area, and federal papershufflers decided that the public had to be kept away. And thus ended a unique beach experience.
The "endangered" Piping Plover has become a recurring joke for me.
I first encountered the legend of the Piper on a visit to Prince Edward Island, Canada back in 1989 (at the time, there was rail service from one end of the island to the other provided by VIA don't know if there still is).
Since then it seems that every vacation I take is already a hot spot for this endangered but well travelled bird. The most Ploverous of Pipers has been spotted (not by me, just by some gov't bird watcher) in Charleston SC, Cape May NJ, Block Island RI, Mystic CT and now finally in the Rockaways.
Looks like this freggin' lame bird has more protection and rights than most people!(And this for a bird that according oof the Parks Dept. placards is hard to see since their coloring camouflages the species against the sandy background.)
You must ammit that birds have more logic and common sense then most people.
None of you understand, "Piping Plover" is a code name fcr "Vested Environmentalist Lawyer." Once one of these creatures are on the scene, they create a unique habitat in that they use the law to colonize an entire area without compensation or competition from others of their species.
In the Catskills, my father in law has adopted the swallow trick for his bluebird house. Put two birdhouses next to each other, and a swallow will take one and fight to keep other swallows out of the nest with the bluebird in it. They need lots of room. Similarly, you put a "piping plower" nest in an area, and it will fight off others of the human species to get more room for itself, preserving other species (endangered or not) in the process.
Being a 22 year resident of the Rockaways, this subject interests me very much. What I am about to say is just my opinion, but knowing the City's (Guiliani's Administration) past tactics against public swimming pools and city beaches, I feel this "bird sanctuary" is the latest in a wave of plans to lower and or cut the costs of supplying lifeguards. First there were the needles, then the riptides, then there was flat out "we don't have it in our budget to supply lifeguards so certain sections of the beach will remain closed most of the summer," now finally there is this bird sanctuary. For the past six or seven years, there was always some reason to close this beach.
Now, anyone who really knows Rockaway can tell you that these so called "bird sanctuaries" only exist in the lower income, minority areas of Rockaway. Give me a break! If the City was really interested in the well being of these birds, then why is that our well to do neighbors such as Neponsit, Belle Harbor and Breezy Point share part of their beaches with the fine feathered friends.
It's just like anything else dealing with politics. When any government decides to watch there budget, it is always the lower income or minorities who feel the shot in the ________, whether is is sanitation, housing, EDUCATION and now beaches. It is rediculous.
Although I'm not saying it's right. It is true that the 'well to do neighbors' give more to the city. In addition to paying more taxes, they receive less social services. The poor don't pay as much to have the beach. Perhaps that's why the city closes it in the poor neighborhoods and not the more well of ones, it makes more financial sense.
Those who really pay more taxes than they get back in services are businesses. That's why most suburbs try to get business "ratables" in and keep poor people out.
Yes, the politically powerful get services in NYC. That's why when we wanted to allow more big stores in to the city, to get more tax revenues for services, they were opposed. They don't have to worry about the city's total tax base and economy, because they get the first tabs on whatever is there. They just worry about traffic, and would rather shop in Nassau of NJ.
I don't agree. Chinatown's Grand Street station got a new door and service, although most of the people in the area are not affluent. Another good example is the Frankiln Street Shuttle. Who rides thaat anyway? So the TA bend to what or who pays them the most, and the local opinion of the TA.
Political considerations were behind the decision to renovate the Franklin Shuttle. From a strictly economic viewpoint, it would have made far more sense simply to shut it down for good. But that would have made NYCT a sitting duck for claims that it was giving the shaft to a poor minority neighborhood. I really think that if the Shuttle had been in a less woebegone area, it would have been closed.
Peter, I think having it closed would have been worse for the communities that the line runs through -- the ROW would surely have turned into a virtual 'homeless shelter' and crack addicts domain.
Just look at the recent history of the Bay Ridge LIRR line: cops had to do 'sweeps' through there on a regular basis to oust druggies and/or apprehend house burglars who had made the barely-used cut a 'den' for their evil deeds.
Even though a bus line can easily (and more economically) replace the Franklin Shuttle -- whatever the reason for it's having been saved -- political or otherwise, is a good thing overall. Besides the contentment of the community at large, we railfans should rejoice as well for the saving of one of the original BRT rights-of-way with all of it's historical significance (both good and bad).
Moreover, the reopening of the Franklin and it's NEW connection to the IRT via Eastern Pkwy will allow commuters to transfer between three distinct lines (A train at Fulton St.; D train at Prospect Park; 2,3,4 or 5 at Franklin Ave.) in case of 'congestion' situations. I am eagerly awaiting the grand opening as I am sure it will have alot of hopla attached to it (video camera will be on hand!)
Oh, BTW, one of the neihborhoods that the shuttle runs through -- Prospect Heights -- is currently going through a gentrification as some yuppies can no longer afford apartment fees in neighboring Park Slope community. So don't think that the shuttle is only going to be used by minority groups (and don't forget the tourist crowd that will use the line to get to Brooklyn Museum and Botanic Gardens).
Doug aka BMTman
I'm also glad that the Franklin Shuttle wasn't closed. New York should not be the only big city in the country with a shrinking mass transit system.
Regarding the affluent vs. poor issue, let's not forget that the ultra-wealthy Upper East Side of Manhattan has wreteched service.
As I've said, most of the affluent people on the Upper East Side are young people passing through on the way from/to elsewhere. They won't be around to use a 2nd Ave subway, their replacements will, so they don't fight for it. And many don't know what they are missing. But their replacements would ride the subway, and would benefit.
Long term residents are very wealthy. They ride cabs, or black cabs. As I cross Broadway in the morning, you can seem them heading to Wall Street, the merely affluent three to cab, the very very rich by themselves.
What about old time, middle income New Yorkers who can stay in Manhattan due to connections, nesting in Mitchell-Lama buildings and places like Stuy-town? They ride buses. They got off the subways when they went bad in the 1970s and haven't been back. Maybe a new subway would bring them back. To the extent someone is fighting for the 2nd Avenue subway, thats' who it is. I remember meeting with the community district managers in Manhattan some years back. They all described their areas as middle-income family communities. I know that's bunk -- Manhattan is the richest county in the U.S., and the county with the most singles. But those folks don't show up at community district meetings.
But if the wealthy, long term Manhattan residents are riding cabs or limousines, and the middle-income Manhattan residents are riding buses, who's left for the subways? By no means all subway riders are poor, or suburban commuters.
(Who is riding the subways). In addition to the through traffic from the Bronx, all those 20 and early 30 something college grads living with roomates on the Upper East Side use the subway. These are the TYPE of people who would benefit from a 2nd Avenue Subway. But by the time such a subway is built, the particular group that is here now will be gone, and replaced by a new group. Hence, they are not motivated to fight for it.
There is something to be said for permanence, and families. We lived in Windsor Terrace as young renters for six years. We knew few of our neighbors, and mostly spent time with friends from work or college, who were dispersed. We weren't sure we'd end up here. Once we had kids, decided to stay, and eventually bought a house, all that changed. Now we spend more and more time with people we met in the neighborhood, and are concerned very much with its future.
Kind of makes you wonder about voting for Hillary.
Nitpik -- but an important one.
< Franklin Shuttle [...] saving of one of the original BRT rights-of-way >
Original Brooklyn, Flatbush & Coney Island Railroad right of way. Predates the BRT, as do some other segments.
[Moreover, the reopening of the Franklin and it's NEW connection to the IRT via Eastern Pkwy will allow commuters to transfer between three distinct lines (A train at Fulton St.; D train at Prospect Park; 2,3,4 or 5 at Franklin Ave.) in case of 'congestion' situations.]
I've seen the new single track bridge over Atlantic. One of the good reasons to keep the line is the new transfers, but because they insisted on this single track layout north of Park Pl., and not even making provision for a scond track (and watch then erect all sorts of condrete barriers that will make extension of the platforms past 170ft impossible), the line will be completely inadequate for emergency diversions. What can you do with 2 car trains at about 7 per hr max? If they made it double, then if the Manhattan Bridge were to close, they could have had 30 tph to Franklin, sending most Brighton riders to the Fulton line which could be increased. The Q could have been reduced down to 7 or less tph, freeing up space in the Montague Tunnel for West End trains to run into Manhattan, instead of shuttles service to Pacific.
Just how much money did they save by building one trackway on a third of the line?
[ Inadequate capacity on the rebuilt Franklin Shuttle ]
It's almost as though they're trying to send us a message: "we had to rebuild this line for political reasons, but we can limit its usefulness."
Of course, I could fantasize that they did this because they want to attach the line to the Fulton Street subway in the future, so they're keeping the structure simple.
That would be real wishful thinking.
The same reasoning was involved when the TA proposed to make 125th St on the #1 a "skipped" stop. In the end they kept it open.
Why does the LIRR leave their diesel trains ideling for hours?
They are not in passenger service yet they still sit there running.
Why is that? To keep the a/c running? It put extra wear on the engine
and wastes fuel. MNCRR shuts their trains down a few minutes after arrival.
It's called: LAZY!
At NY&A we shut them off. The only time it's neccesary is in cold weather, or the thing might not restart. Worse, the radiator water will dump out below 40, to save the engine block from cracking. It takes hours to refill.
I want to thank all of you guys who wrote to me concerning my worry over the "tongue-in-cheek" remarks of the possibility of paving over the Sea Beach for a bus line or whatever. Believe me, from what I've heard about how the line has been made into a world war I trench, and
how it's become a slow local stripped of its Manhattan Bridge moorings, I'm not slow to discount anything the transit authority might be planning. I asm gratified to know that there seems to be many others out there who are Sea Beach fanatics like I am. It's too bad Mayor Giuliani, a Brooklynite, can't use his good offices to stop this raping of our favorite line. The Brooklyn Bridge, Coney Island and the Sea Beach are integral parts of my earlly Brooklyn heritage, and I want to see the train go express to Coney Island once again, and,while we're at it, get it back to the Manhattan Bridge, and stop it from being a boring local through the bowels of Manhattan.
Well, the N does run express along 4th Ave. during middays, if that's any consolation.
I don't know if you've checked out the line-by-line section, but there is mention of cutbacks in express service along 4th Ave. during nights and weekends beginning in the mid to late 50s.
The Sea Beach express tracks, which in my opinion were never fully utilized, have seen two services of note over the years: the Franklin-Nassau beach special and a short-lived rush hour service in 1967-68, the NX super express. It ran only in the peak direction, starting at Brighton Beach, then ran nonstop from Coney Island to 59th St., skipping DeKalb, over the bridge and terminated at 57th St. I never had a chance to ride on it, and from I've heard there were more railfans on those trains than passengers needing to get to Manhattan or Brooklyn. Ridership never approached aniticipated levels, and this route was discontinued in April of 1968. I think it's safe to say you would have loved it. I know I would have, being the express addict I am.
Back in the late 70s they were doing track work on the Sea Beach local tracks, and I remember getting an NX-like express ride (except through the repair section) from 59th to Coney Island, but that's the only time since 1967-68 I know the express track was used.
The Sea Beach express tracks have been used for reroutes from time to time due to track work. They were neglected for some time and fell into disrepair, except for the section which has been used for acceptance testing.
The idea of having nonstop express tracks on the Sea Beach was a good one, but it didn't pan out. IMHO, there should have been an express stop put in at some point, say New Utrecht. The West End stop at 62nd St., where passengers can transfer to the Sea Beach, is an express station.
I suppose if the TA had thought about it, they could have had the express tracks `dive down' at New Utrecht and put express platforms beneath the local tracks at that stop. I agree the long distance between Stilwell and 59th St. is what killed any hopes of a successful express service on the Sea Beach line.
Remember that all the current lines to Coney Island were excursion railroads. The non-stop run from Coney to 59th was a way to have a commuter system AND an excursion system.
They meant to do that!
Just one question: How could they use those tracks for regular service when neither of them were signalled from 59th st. to Kings Highway?
They were operated as one very long block and only one train at a time was allowed into the block and another could not enter until the preceding train had exited the block either at 59 St or Kings Highway.
This is one of the things that limited the number of "NX" trains to only five on about a ten minute headway.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In the late 1800's an experimental railway called the Meigs Elevated Railway existed in boston. There were three enormous cars shaped like a big salami or frankfurter which ran on steel wheels on a 60 degree angle to rail.
Cool looking contraption.
This weekend I rode an N train of R42s through the 63rd street tunnel and down the 6th Avenue express tracks because of a diversion? Those R42s were flying between 34the street and West 4th Street. Much like the Slant R-40s. I never knew the R-42s could go that fat and was a pleasure to do so. I guess they cant get that fast on the Eastern Division? Also I saw that R40m42 pair on the N too! It took me by surprise.
The R-42s used to zoom down Fourth Ave. in Brooklyn when they ran on the N and B back in the 70s, but the elevated lines on the M abd J and the underground curves working around Newtown Creek on the L inhibit any good straightaways, except for downhill in the 14th Street tunnel.
Here, here. I rode on a few N trains of R-42s in July of 1971, and I'm here to tell you they flat-out rocketed along 4th Ave.
They did, but those cars became victims of TA shoddy maintance rather quickly and became a very troublesome piece of equipment with the dark cars, defective air conditioning and defective side signs even if the car "belonged" on that particular line.
I think it's safe to say that the entire fleet suffered to some extent from deferred maintanance. It still would have been interesting to see how the Triplexes would have fared during that period, had they been kept. They probably would have kept rolling right along.
Those R42's really fly on the J line as the travel from Supthin Blvd up above ground to the curve onto Jamaica Ave. Sometimes those cars would travel so fast around the curve between the Bowery and Canal St. that some people would have to hold on to the poles with 2 hands to prevent themselves from falling.
The lead article in the June issue of Rail Transit Online (mailto:jwolinsky@mediaone.net for info) quotes the American Public Transit Association as saying that in 1998, there were 8.7 billion on public transit, up 4.6% from 1997 and 12% from 1995. This one-year increase includes light rail up 6.3%, heavy rail 5.5%, and commuter rail 5.4%. Impressive!
The June issue of Rail Transit Online (mailto:jwolinsky@mediaone.net for info) says that the order placed for the M-7s (new LIRR MUs) specs full width cabs. Could it be that we'll actually become nostalgic for the railfan-friendly M-1/M-3s?
railfan friendly? The cars sure are, the enginewers sure aren't - I got YELLED AT by one for standing anywhere near the front "I don't want you watching me do my job" the guy said. Yes, I filed a complaint - for the record, the LIRR told me you CAN watch outy the window - as long as you're not blocking the cab door. And the cab door MUST be closed at all times. In other words, they aren't allowed to drive the train and chitchat at the same time.
You must have gotten a bad apple. I've stood at the front of the train several times on MNCRR and LIRR quite a few times over a long period and neither the conductor nor the engineer have given me a hard time.
Oh, I certainly did get a bad apple. Anyway, yeah, most crews are fairly decent. I used to frequent one New Haven train last year, I ended up on the "frequent commuter discount" program ;)
Best LIRR trip was one on the PW branch, where, the engineer kept thew door closed, was FAST, and, best of all, the damm MA was dead, so there was no HVAC whinning away. Nice and quiet. You could actually hear the camshaft controller clicking away under the train. I wish they were ALL like that...
[railfan friendly? The cars sure are, the enginewers sure aren't - I got YELLED AT by one for standing anywhere near the front "I don't want you watching me do my job" the guy said. Yes, I filed a complaint - for the record, the LIRR told me you CAN watch outy the window - as long as you're not blocking the cab door. And the cab door MUST be closed at all times. In other words, they aren't allowed to drive the train and chitchat at the same time.]
I remember back in the 1980's riding a train out of Flatbush Avenue and the engineer had a bungie cord hooked to the seat backs eliminating the seats across from the cab and standing at the front door. The bastard yelled at me for trying to stand and look out the front window behind the bungie cord. He said he could get the conductor to have me removed from the train. The conductor later told me that the engineer had a huge beef with mankind and was the the anti-social type. This was a Brooklyn - Long Beach train if I remember correctly.
Today, some of the CTA operators use the same device to block off the "cab area". Full width cabs and eliminating the access to the front door leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I do PAY for my trips on public transit!
That will be too bad. Some of the engineers let my kids blow the horn
at grade crossings!
My grandson had the same experience, but at a tunnel vs. road.
The MTA (LIRR/M-N/TA) just doesn't get it, re. the attitude of these young customers about mass transit.
Mr t__:^)
<< Today, some of the CTA operators use the same device to block off the "cab area". Full width cabs and eliminating the access to the front door leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I do PAY for my trips on public transit! >>
Since the CTA is going to OPTO, the motorman needs access to the left side window to check for passengers before departing stations with egress/entry on the left side of the train. Without full-width cabs the only window access is adjacent to a passenger seat. By blocking off the front door and the railfan seat, the motorman ensures access to the window.
[Since the CTA is going to OPTO, the motorman needs access to the left side window to check for passengers before departing stations with egress/entry on the left side of the train. Without full-width cabs the only window access is adjacent to a passenger seat. By blocking off the front door and the railfan seat, the motorman ensures access to the window.]
Thank you Dave for explaining that to me. I ride the CTA everyday! I've already figured that out the need for the left-side window!
What I was trying to say, and must not have done a good job of it, is that I don't agree with the one-person operation or the attitute of a number of the transit workers I've come across over the many years I've been riding.
However, I don't want to go into that string of messages AGAIN regarding OPTO and attitudes! Thank you.
What is a fireman? I know that they used to put coal into the boilers
of steam locos. But what do they do now? Engineer's assist?
Most railroads eliminated fireman in an effort to cut costs. Big battle a few years back with the BLE on this one.
Now that cabooses have been more or less done away with, what has become of the brakeman? It still seems strange to see a freight train with no caboose on the end.
Many freight jobs are done with just a conductor. If it needs to be done quickly there might be a brakeman. Yard jobs almost always do. At NY&A we needed a third hand for the mainline jobs, because it took too long without them. The LI didn't want us tying up their passenger trains.
I for one hated riding in a hack (caboose) because they don't ride like coaches. Heck you're likely to get knocked down and hurt in one.
Today's RR fireman is ussually a student engineer. That's what the fireman's job traditionally was, a stepping stone to engineer. After steam, that's all it was. To this time the left seat is still called the fireman's seat. The ALP44's even have the heater switched labeled thus: Engineer's Heat/Fireman's Heat.
Hello Folks I have some Questions here. Does any one know why the following WFR36 cars #s 9348/9349 Have NOW been seperated from each other as well as 9652/9653? They are sitting opposite each other with blind ends first on both sets. I hope the #7 line isnt losing these cars yet. By the way, Does any one know what exactly the #7 line is going to get to replace the R36s? Please contact me if any one knows what is going on I would like to know. Thank you have a nice day.
Regards Thomas
Where did you see them separated? If it was at CI, no problem. The car which needs work goes into the Main Shop while the other waits outside till the work is completed.
What are we in England???
This has gone on for more than a year.
Is the TA dyslexic???
Did you write/call the station manager? What did they say?
It is unlikely s/he frequents SubTalk.
-Dave
I wouldn't say dyslexic; left-handed sounds more like it.
At least the escalators work.
If the escalators didn't work it would be an improvement due to the fact that now pedestrian traffic is compelled to clash with each other. Breaking the escalator would actually solve the problem.
As for contacting the Station Manager, How do I do that? They never answer the phone.
> They never answer the phone.
Well, that is a problem, I guess, but complaining about the situation here every few weeks isn't working much better, is it...
Try calling the NYCT Customer Assistance line (718-330-3322).
Near the booth is a sign with the field manager's name.
Try writing to:
Field Manager (John Doe)--your person's name here
New York City Transit Authority
Department of Stations
Room 424
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
Just a reminder for those who have not seen it yet, but the NYC 1953 Subway Token is featured on one of the stamps just issued on the 1950's "Celebrate the Century" sheet. It is on the stamp commerating the World Series rivalries between the Yankees (GO BRONX) and the Brooklyn Dodgers.
The entire sheet is $4.95 containing 15 $.33 stamps.
The sheet should be available at most major post offices.
To contridict and earlier posting by someone else on this subject: If you buy the sheet do not break it apart and use the other stamps. Any future value would be dependent on the sheet remaining intact.
As a long-time stamp collector, let me offer this observation: today's US stamps aren't going to have any appreciable value in the future. Our postal service, in an effort to make money, has taken to issuing stamps like they were wallpaper and is driving serious collectors either out of the hobby or into specialties. Yes, the new stamps are pretty, but they lack the artistic quality of the older issues, and they by-and-large lack any relevance to America, its people, and its history. Bugs Bunny indeed! They are now issuing so many stamps each year that I couldn't use even one of each issue that comes out on regular mail, bills, letters, and cards included. Once upon a time our stamps, like our coins and currency, were America's face to the rest of the world. No more.
Back to the future value - the quantity in which they are being issued will preclude any appreciation. I can, today, purchase US stamps at approximately a 20-25% discount from face value. They will range from the '40s through the mid-'90s issues, will have mostly complete sheets (the plate blocks will be missing from some of the earlier issues, and the Zip blocks from the 6 and 8 cent sheets), and will include fractional and high-dollar values as well as small values. The minimum purchase, however, is usually $500-$1000 at a time - fine for someone who is doing lots of first class mailing and doesn't mind licking lots of stamps but not practical for the everyday user. I've done it a couple of times when I was sending out large mailings soliciting dealers for a train show, but even then it took three years' worth of shows and club newsletters to use a $1000 purchase (face about $1300) worth of stamps. These were mailed when the rate was 29 cents, and most had five or six stamps on them - one ten, one eight, a five and two threes (when I ran out of eights I used two fours). That's a lot of licking!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know what you mean about stamp values. I tried to save a sheet of any stamp that I could afford starting back in the fifties. The only way I could recover what I paid was to use them for postage. I am currently using four 5 cent stamps and one 13 cent stamp on all outgoing mail.
Karl B
You're not alone, Karl. There was a gentleman friend of my folks who got into speculation on 1950s commemoratives. He bought who knows how many sheets of stamps, and needless to say, the plan backfired. For years, every letter we got from him had a combination of 3- and 4-cent stamps on it.
Now, in the case of that subway token stamp, there is a possibility that used specimens of that entire series may actually turn out to be more valuable than unused ones (yes, that does happen). My aunt, the same one who lives on the Red line in Chicago, is also an avid stamp collector. She picked up three sets of each of those decade sheets, one for herself, one for me, and one for postage. I get letters from her with those stamps affixed to the envelope, and I've been soaking them off and placing them in my album.
Otherwise, unless you were lucky enough to get a hold of a Legends of the West error sheet, don't expect much in the way of a return on investment.
Just to let you all know, I gave up stamp collecting a long time ago.
As for Bugs Bunny et al. The Postal Service knows a cash cow when it sees one.
How about various cars on a series of commerative postal stamps. I vote for the Gibbs Hi-V, Lo-V, IRT Gate cars, BMT gate cars.
Have at it guys.
I have a relative who is a member of a group which is trying to get a postage stamp issued to honor the late Audie Murphy. They have been unsuccessful for almost twenty years. Considering this, I don't think there is much chance of getting stamps issued for our beloved old transit cars. It is a nice thought though!
Karl B
One never knows. Maybe they already have it planned for the 100th Anniversary in 2004.
But keep in mind that it would be a limited audience.
One of my close friends served on the Citizen's Stamp Advisory Committee for the USPS for one term earlier in this decade. While there are official criteria that regulate to some extent what may or may not go on a stamp, the decisions - ultimately in the hands of the USPS Board of Governors - are largely either "politically correct" or simply "political". Translation: if you are a member of a minority group or if you are politically connected you have a much better chance of being heard in the decision-making process.
Oh by the way - I suspect that if anyone thinks they have a prayer of getting a stamp issued in honor of the 100th anniversary of the IRT, they need to get their congressman/woman's attention NOW. The lead time from artist's proposal to production/issuance is about four years, unless the subject is a cartoon character or a dead president.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I gave up collecting stamps when the postal service started requireing that I buy two entire rows to get a plate block. I still pick up random issues, and some things that catch my eye on ebay, but I figured, after the Elvis stamp thing, that they'd be issueing so many of future commeratives, it'd become like baseball cards-so many people have them, they're worth less than you paid. The next issue I have any intention of buying will be Ted Rose's Streamliners, only because of the trains.
-Hank
Now if they'd only release a complete sheet with just the GG-1...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi, again; does anyone (part. sta. agents) know if the train to train tranfer (w/Metrocard) at 63-Lex. is still in effect? Thanks.
That transfer was discontinued with the return of normal service to the 63rd street line.
The TA should consider building a connecting tunnel from the Lexington Ave./63rd St. station to the 59th St. station on the Lexington Ave. line when the connection to the Queens Blvd. line opens in 2001. It would really take the pressure off the transfers at Lex/53rd. st on the E/F and Lex/60th st. on the R.
it wouldent be worth it, all the other connecting tunnels were closed becouse of crime, why would this one be any diffrent. althought one could be constructed to be more crime-resenstance (Wide tunnel with bright lights and nowhere to hide, also security cameras inside the station/tunnel and monitored localy witin the station(s)
Besides the transfer being 5 blocks long, which is a pretty far walk as far as transfers go.
-Hank
5 blocks? I thought it would be 3 (60th-63rd) ...
Sorry, I was thinking 68st. But 3 blocks is still a bit of a walk.
-Hank
Not much longer than the 51st to 53rd st. walk you have to make from the E/F to the 6.
Hi,; it seems that in its haste to eliminate the free transfer @ 63-Lex, the TA then mentions that shuttle service only, weekends through July to 57-7 only. What gives?
Just got #6 in the series of MCs sponcered by Continental Airlines:
"A World Wide Web. Without The Internet."
Mr t__:^)
Nice to know.
Anyone have any idea which stations have them?
Does anyone have information about the history of how the original four or five car IRT locals were extended to the present ten car length? Canal Street, Spring Street, and Bleecker Street stations on the east side seem, based on the appearance of the tilework, to have had the southbound platforms extended in the 1920s and the northbound platforms extended in the 1960s. Astor Place looked this way too until the recent post-modern decorations were installed. Worth Street had the extension on the southbound side only. North of Grand Central, the local stations seem to have been built for eight car trains, later extended to ten.
On the West Side, the stations below Times Square also appear to have been built for for eight cars with a later extension. Between Times Square and 96th Street, the original 1904 local stations appear to have been extended in the 1960s. 91st Street was left in the old configuration.
Thanks for any info. about this.
The quick answer is that the orig. line started downtown on the East side, then went cross town at Times Sq., then uptown.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, that's true, but that doesn't explain why the platform extensions were built at different times. For example, when the West Side IRT was opened below Times Square (I haven't looked it up, but it was around 1918?), the local stations between Chambers Street and Times Square could handle eight car trains. Yet the local stations between Times Square and 96th Street remained in their 1904 (four car) configuration until the 1960s. That must mean that the West Side locals remained at four cars throughout that entire period (c. 1918-1962). Why the long delay in extending the older stations?
Canal St, Spring St., Bleecker St, and Astor Place are puzzling because the southbound platforms were extended in the 1920s, but there seems to have been a 35-year delay in doing the northbound side. What happened?
I don't have any memories of how the system operated before about 1962. I'm just using the appearance of the tilework to get clues about how the original IRT route was upgraded. When did the locals go from four to eight to ten cars?
Thanks,
PD
I heard the southbound extensions were in 1947. I thought late 20's as well, as the design does look like the "missing link" between the later Dual Contracts designs (espcially the 1928 14th St extension) and the older IND design. I'm thinking of the simpler friezes, thick sans-serif lettered station name mosaics, black tiles with white letters and arrow pointing to exits, and the vertical tile layout right below the ceiling.
|_|-|_|-|_|
|_|-|_|-|_|
But it probably looks that way to try to match the older parts of the stations
I know which ones you're talking about - the southbound IRT Lexington stations below Grand Central. Spring Street is one of the best surviving examples of this. It has almost and IND-style tile band, except it uses large single square tiles instead of 4 1/4" squares, similar to the Nostrand Avenue line, but with a simpler border.
I'm not sure if this is a Vickers design or not.
I don't ever recall seeing this on the northbound side - these tiles are the early 60's style. You also see this on the upper west side stations like 79th, 86th. etc.
The 14th St-Canarsie line's 1928 stations are fairly consistent with the 1924 ones except they have a contrasting band near the base of the walls, and there's more use of cut porcelain rather than standard ceramic (e.g. Wilson, Bushwick-Aberdeen). The island-platform Myrtle Avenue station has no girders in the wall proper and the band is set near eye level. The colors on this section tend to be brighter as well. Montrose Avenue, the last stop on the 1924 section, previewed this trend.
Wayne
Here's a little help. In 1909 the Public Service Commission issued permits to extend all local platforms on Contract one to fit 6 car trains and all express platforms from 96 St south and northbound platforms north of 96 St to hold 10 cars. 149 St-Mott Av,145 St-Lenox,City Hall,Hoyt St, Nevins and South Ferry were not done.
This is from Cunningham's history of the IRT.
Remember too that a ten car train of Lo-V's did not need 510 feet of platform. They did not use the first and last doors of the train so the platforms were somewhat shorter. When the R-Types came on line the platforms had to be extended an additional 20 or 30 feet.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I do remember when I was a small kid, I remember seeing work done to extend the stations for the Jerome-Lexington Avenue express. I guess this would have been around 1962. That must have been the extra 20 or 30 feet you mentioned. The extensions had modern tilework in the subway stations and modern lighting fixtures on the elevated ones.
The West Side local stations from 42nd Street to 96th Street seem to have the original 1904 portions plus long modern extensions. I believe 91st Street was closed around 1959, so I assume the West Side locals had short trains before that date.
I think Worth Street was closed in 1962; it has an extension on the southbound side only. The other stations up to 14th Street have the northbound extensions, so the East Side locals must have had short trains until these were finished.
It's still hard to discern any consistent pattern in the way the extension projects were done over the years.
Around 1959 the Broadway Express was discontinued in favor of the 1 Local. At that time the trainms went from 5 cars to 10. All local stops were lengthened and in the case of 96, the side plats were closed. I recall seeing a portable sign on the side plat: ALl trains onm the express platform. Since that time, many have been renovated and now have a unified tile pattern.
If my memory serves, I seem to recall that ten car trains were operated on the Lex Local before all the platforms were extended. Only the doors on the half of the train that "platformed" were opened at these stops.
That would explain how they dealt with the short platforms on the northbound stations between Brooklyn Bridge and 14th Street. The ridership at those stations must have been lighter than it is now.
PATH still does something like that at the Exchange Place station. Some of the trains are one car-length longer than the platform. Since the conductor is in the first car, he opens the doors on all cars except the first one, which is stopped beyond the end of the station.
PATH runs 8 cars on the Newark to World Trade Center line. Even on their other lines, the normal operating position for the conductor is in one of the first two cars But I have seen the Conduxctor between cars 2 and 3
The invitation is still open for everyone who want's to come up to Kingston, this Saturday!
We need trolley car conductors and flagmen. If you want to get trained as a motorman, you have to come up!
Harold and I can't do it. 6398 needs it's work done. If we're running trolley cars, we're not sanding, painting and the like.
C'mon all you computer screen railfans, GET INVOLVED!
The same applies to Branford. Take your pick and decide who you want to help!!!!!
-Constantine
Even though I am inFlorida, I will be there in spirit. I appreciate your interest in making things better. I am researching BRT in 1914-1933. What was the role of conductor in 1914? What was the role of a motorman in 1930? Any help would be great! Thanks
I am employed by the CTA in Chicago for 12 years as a
Motorman and a member of A.T.U. local 308. I am new to
sub-talk, and would like to start correspodence with
fellow New York rail personnel from T.W.U. local 100. I
have always been fasinated with the New York Subway
system.
Welcome aboard there are lots of New York City Transit Employee's on this site. I been a Train Operator for 11 Years. The title was Motorman when I came out in 1988. I hopefully will visit the Chicago Elevated someday. The closeist city I go to on vacation is Phila rideing the Market Street Elevated or Interview OPTO Train Operators on the Broad Street Line.
Thanks Pelham Bay Dave. The CTA also got rid of calling us motormen and call us operators. I HAVE BEEN A MOTORMAN, I AM A MOTORMAN, AND WILL ALWAYS BE A MOTORMAN!!!!!!!
Me too!!!!!
"I HAVE BEEN A MOTORMAN, I AM A MOTORMAN, AND WILL ALWAYS BE A MOTORMAN!!!!!!!"
No doubt, but it would take either a miracle or major surgery (not usually paid for by insurance) to make a woman, however well qualified to operate a train, into a motorMAN, so maybe that's why the title was changed.
More politcally correct nonsence!! I have no problem with women being motomen. As a matter of fact I have trained a lot of them here in Chicago. Just leave the English language alone.
You've just been introduced to one of the 3 "Js" in the Windy City. He's a GOOD guy so please turn down the flame.
Mr t__:^)
"I have no problem with women being motomen."
I didn't think that you did, and I apologize if it sounded that way. If I thought you had a problem with women running trains, I wouldn't have argued the matter the way I did because it wouldn't work.
"More politcally correct nonsence!!"
I disagree with most of the politically correct stuff ("personhole" for manhole", among other examples) and I understand that many people who came to the job of operating a train when the title was "motorman" feel that it diminishes the prestige of the position to change the title to "train operator."
However, IMHO, when one is talking about the title of a job, especially one that has been traditionally held by men only, I think the "man" part DOES sound to many women like they are implicitly excluded from the job, or at least they won't be welcome there.
Anyhow, even if someone thinks that is being overly sensitive, the higher-ups aren't changing the title in order to offend or diminish the existing "motormen" but to avoid offending the "train operators" of the future.
I disagree with most of the politically correct stuff ("personhole" for manhole", among other examples) and I understand that many people who came to the job of operating a train when the title was "motorman" feel that it diminishes the prestige of the position to change the title to "train operator."]
At least on the LIRR, the term "brakeman" is commonly used. I haven't heard of any push to change it to "brakeperson."
By the way, why isn't the term "engineer" used to denote persons operating subway trains?
What about Motorperson ? Would that work.
NO!
Hey don't insult people who drive trains by calling them engineers. They slide rule kind of engineers gets all the jokes.
Hey, Peter...you took the idea right out of my head! Great post!
When I was a kid (and it wasn't THAT long ago) I thought the 'guy who drives the subway train' was called an Engineer just like the "regular" interstate railroads.
If the NYCT would go back to the term -- besides not offending anyone's gender -- it may also raise the esteem of motormen since the term even sounds more potent than both 'motorman' or 'train operator'.
Doug aka BMTman
I also think that "engineer" would be a better choice than "train operator." There are only two drawbacks, as I see it:
1. As noted elsewhere, people sometimes think of engineers (not the train type) as Dilbertish nerds.
2. Engineer is sometimes used in a parody sense - sanitation engineer, domestic engineer, etc.
Still, it's a better choice.
Title isn't going to change morale PERIOD! respect from management will or might be a step in the right direction...
Not necessarily as if if we were truly engineers, we would be represented by one of the best unions of the trade, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. The Transport Worker's Union tries to defend those who slack off but the BLE "strongly" encourages those to show up and do the work. Although I don't have much time working for the BLE as I do for the TWU, I noticed the BLE has an easier time boosting morale and gaining fair contracts because their members are counseled by the union before they are caught by Labor Relations. In the public eye they are truly professionals with far fewer incidents than their counterparts at NYCT. They get their "respect" from management because they are not willing to negotiate their jobs in exchange for money, a strong weakness at the TWU. WE at NYCT must develop a respect for ourselves before we demand it from management.
I presume the $60 media tax was passed because of the busdrivers.
Said in a way only a Lawyer can say it. Mailman is a Mailman not a Letter carrier geesh... I guess we will have to wait for the First Woman President to see the First Gentleman?
"Mailman is a Mailman not a Letter carrier geesh."
But you have to admit that "firefighter" makes more sense than "fireman." Fireman sounds like someone who SETS fires, not puts them out! And "fireman" can be confused with the (mostly obsolete) railroad job of stoking the steam engine with coal. (^:
"I guess we will have to wait for the First Woman President to see the First Gentleman?"
That sounds about right to me. We certainly can't call the present President a gentleman, First or otherwise. (^:
I couldn't have said it better myself.
When Jimmy Carter was running the show, I used to say, "Are you sure about that now?"
With Mr. Bill, I say, "Come on, tell the truth."
John,apology acccepted. I was threatend by a superintedent to be sent to retraining because I continued to call myself a motorman and not an operator.
Back in 1982 I took the 'Foreman's' Test. By the time I was appointed, in 1984, the job was re-named,'Leader'. In 1986 my title was again changed , this time to 'Maintenance Supervisor'. I took the promotion to Superintendent ONLY because I couldn't remember my former title.
At this depot I'm a MANager and a foreMAN. Eat your hart out.
Mr t__:^)
I wish I was a member of the A.T.U. T.W.U. Local 100 is a lousy union.They want us to cough up $60/person for a media campaign pertaining to our contract.Those of us from the subways are against it,while the busdrivers are for it.
Mike, at least you received more money for OPTO. We didn't get not one penney more.
I want no part of it.I'm not qualified on OPTO.
I don't blame you. I have no other choice.
I believe theres $2 more an hour. But I have not done OPTO and will aviod it as long as I can. I could get A sweet 9AM TO 5PM job with Sunday Monday off on the Grand Central Shuttle doing OPTO but I won't.
How is OPTO in Chicago?
OPTO in Chicago (which thanks to week union leadership is system wide) STINKS11
As you can see several Motormen are on this site along with some Station Agents, bus drivers, and even some "suits". I know at least one VP who looks in occasionaly & have even seen him post a reply.
The three things that make this site so great for me are:
- Dave Pirmann, our host
- The scope of the folks on the site: buffs, not-so buffs, employees\
- All the folks from out-of-town. You'll get to know the three "Js" from Chicago who are customers & very knowledgeable about your sys.
As for me I'm a lover of trolleys & subways who just happens to work for a "private" bus company in NYC. I look forward to hearing you & Mike, Bill, Dave, Steve, Jeff, etc. comparing notes !
Mr (small)_t__:^)
Picking up the theme of culling my collection, I have a segment of an Eastern Division side sign. It has readings from just the J and LL, both in grey. These are the signs with the strip maps on the inside. Interestingly enough, the "J" section has readings with North Terminals for 168th Street, Queens Blvd., AND Parsons Blvd.
Also available is the model sign used when R46 cars were hors de combat and the Jamaica Yard routes were switched to the R44. You all may remember that stickers were made and placed over non-used destinations from the original signs (such as for the EE) and this was the sign that was used by Bridge Decal to make the stickers. Strip maps also on the inside.
Either one can be yours for postage costs (prob. $15) plus anything else you may want to throw in there for the effort. E-mail me with any thoughts.
Thanks and regards,
Charles
Satisfaction guaranteed.
Just a question about the J line: Why was it cut back to Queens Blvd in '77 and then back to 121 st. in '85? Why wasnt it just shortened to 121st st from the beginning? Seems like a waste of money to install a scissors crossing a Queens Blvd. if that part of the line was already scheduled to be closed down in less than 7 years.
My recollection is that there was alot of political pressure to get the el structure off of Jamaica Avenue in the center of the shopping district, even before the new Jamaica Center station and connecting subway cut would be ready. The theory was that with the el structure gone, shoppers would throng to Jamaica Avenue. That's why the original cutback was from 168th Street to Queens Blvd. I believe the structure from 168th St to Sutphin Blvd came down very fast. The cutback from Queens Blvd to 121st St was done when it was time to put in the subway link-up east of 121st St
The then Chairman of the MTA was David Yunich who had some connection to Macy's and Macy's was one of the store agitating for removal of the el. The TA actually oppossed this move as an unnecessary expense but was overruled by the MTA. As I recall the day the TA finally did close the el Macy's announced that they were closing the Jamaica Store.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Sounds like a big mistake to me, but there is a lesson. A narrow financial interest can get a subway built, a large customer interest cannot. A co-workers says that the 6th Ave line was built well into the LaGuardia era as part of the plan for Rockefeller Center. It connected many of the wealthiest areas of the city at the time -- Washington Heights, the Concourse, Queens Blvd -- right into its number one business location.
Larry: I don't like to use the word but the cutback of the Jamaica El to Queens Boulevard years before the Archer Avenue Subway was completed was "stupid." All those merchants who clamored for its removal most have pondered this as business fell off. Not only did the el no longer go to the main shopping area but the service now required a transfer to the Q-49 bus which got even longer when the el was further cut back to 121 St.
We endured the same kind of negative improvement in the Bronx when the 3 Avenue El was replaced by the Bx-55 which doubled the running time.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[I don't like to use the word but the cutback of the Jamaica El to Queens Boulevard years before the Archer Avenue Subway was completed was "stupid." All those merchants who clamored for its removal most have pondered this as business fell off. Not only did the el no longer go to the main shopping area but the service now required a transfer
to the Q-49 bus which got even longer when the el was further cut back to 121 St.]
While I certainly agree that the Jamaica Avenue merchants were a bunch of dopes with respect to the anti-El campaign, in all fairness it should be pointed out that Jamaica was already in decline as a commercial area by the 1970s. Many of its customers had been siphoned off by the Queens and Green Acres malls and the neighborhood itself was becoming somewhat run down. Whether preservation of the El until the Archer Avenue line opened would have made a difference in the grand scheme of things is one of those ultimately unanswerable "what if" questions.
Peter: It is ture that the area was in decline but these things seem to go in cycles. However once you remove a rail right-of-way,be it subway,el or surface, it is almost impossible to replace it without a very great effort. The Jamaica El was no more or less unsightly than any other Contract III El in the City and many other areas function quite well with elevated structures besides with these structures provide the residents with rapid transit service to other areas of the city. I don't recall exactly when the Jamaica El cutback started but I think it was nearly ten years before the Archer Avenue Subway opened. This was tens years in which there was no convient interchange between the el and the LIRR or the Jamaica Bus Terminal.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Also much of the structure stayed in place years after the line was cut back. An abandoned elevated structure isn't going to much for a neighborhood.
The last three stops on that line were closed in September of 1977 and demolished almost immediatly, up to the Sutphin Blvd. station. The tracks leading out of Queens Blvd. (the terminal from Sept '77 to April '85) were used as layup tracks. The next 2 stations (Queens Blvd. and Metropolitian Ave.) were closed in April of '85, but not demolished until early 1991. As a teenager I was able to sneak up into the Metropolitan Ave station and actually walk the track. I even stole an old light fixture. Please don't turn me in (LOL)
The Archer Ave. line opened in December of 1988, 11 years after the el was first shortened.
Chris: Thanks for the correct dates.
Larry
No problem. This subject is a very sore point with me and I'm very well versed on the facts surrounding it.
You're welcome. This subject is a very sore point with me and I'm very well versed on the facts surrounding it.
Why did they shorten the Jamaica ave el in the first place? They should have left it the way it was and just let the Z train go to jamaica center. Thats a smart idea well have a nice day.
[Why did they shorten the Jamaica ave el in the first place? They should have left it the way it was and just let the Z train go to jamaica center.]
It was intended that construction of the Archer Avenue subway would make the Jamaica El largely redundant. In the process, it was expected that Jamaica Avenue would become a more prosperous commercial district without trains rattling overhead, much the same as Third Avenue in Manhattan improved considerably following demolition of the El in the 1950s.
Unfortunately, the process in Jamaica was completely messed up. Due in part to pressure from area merchants, the El was closed years before the Archer Avenue subway was ready. Deprived of useful transit access, the Jamaica area deteriorated and many of the stores along Jamaica Avenue - including some of the ones that had campaigned for the El's premature removal - closed shop. There were more factors involved with the neighborhood's decline, as is usually the case, but there's no doubt that the El fiasco played a major part.
Well having both the el and subway would be redundant. The subway was intended to replace the el. I personally believe the Archer Ave. connection was a tremendous waste of money and very ill-considered. The original idea was to convince riders from southeast Queens to take the J to lower Manhattan and not the E. Unfortunatly, the J is so slow that many people who use the J line take it out to Jamaica to get the E, defeating the entire purpose of the line. Congestion in the Queens Blvd. line is similiar to what it was pre-Archer Ave. The only good thing to come out of it was the massive rehab done to all the remaining Jamaica Ave. el stations, which in the early 80's were in pitiful condition. One wonders how much money could have been saved had the Jamaica Ave. el been completely rehabbed from 168 St.in like the remaining stations are today. Diverting busses which before the Archer Ave. line opened linked to the E/F at 169 St. and 179 St. to the el at 168 St. would have forced many people to use the J instead of the E/F and would have almost certainly eased overcrowding on these lines. I still say this whole thing was one f the dumbest mass-transit moves ever made in this city and shows what happens when business interests become too powerful, forcing local government to make decisions which are against the best interests of the people.
I believe one of the justifications for the Archer subway was that it would serve as the means to extend the subways into southeast Queens, perhaps along one of the LIRR routes. That would certainly increase the value of the Archer subway, but I wouldn't hold my breath for any such extension.
The $2.5 Billon Bond issue in 1968 had also called for a Southeastern Queens Line (in addition to the full 2nd Avenue Subway up to the Bronx) and was the basis for the Archer Avenue Subway construction. This plan included in addition to the Jamaica El Replacement, the taking at least of portion of the existing LIRR right of way to go to Laurelton. (There has been some reports in SubTalk earlier this year that plans have resurfaced. Especially after the 01/29/99 Regional Plan Association publication of its Metrolink proposal.) Basically, this controversial Southeastern Queens Line was another revival of the Second Phase IND.
Just like the 2nd Avenue plan, the Southeastern Queens line went up in smoke with the fiscal crisis of the 1970's. By the time, the Archer Avenue construction started, the plan was basically obsolete, but there was no champion to change the scope. Thus we got what we have today, another unfinished dream.
Great idea, but why did the TA see the need to remove the el? I dont think any of plans I've heard about had the J line going further than Jamaica Center.
[A narrow financial interest can get a subway built, a large customer
interest cannot.]
That may be part of the reason why the Second Avenue subway has never been built. As far as I know, the business community has not advocated strongly (if at all) for its construction.
How did the merchants on Jamaica think that the destruction of the train would be throngs of shoppers into the area? How can "throngs" of people come into an area if you remove the main vehicle for their traveling? Short-sighted thinking in it's purest form.
BTW, I think that when shoppers had to resort to unreliable busses to get into Jamaica after 1977 they took their business to Green Acres Mall, which is a better place to shop anyway. One wonders what Jamaica would be like if they took the money it took to dismantle the el and put it towards rehabbng the line (like the stations along Jamaica Ave. are today) ...
The Jamaica line was cut back from Queens Blvd. to 121st St. in 1985. I remember seeing a wall map with pertinent information; unfortunately, I don't have a corresponding folding map. They took their time dismantling that portion. I drove down Jamaica Ave. right underneath the abandoned section on Oct. 22, 1988 - the very day my sister got married - and it was still intact.
When Jamaica ceased to exist as a shopping center, what became of those two great old motion picture theatres, the Loews Valencia and the RKO Merrick? I got my first ride on an R-10 on the BMT going home after seeing a movie at the Merrick.
Karl B
I know one became a church, but not sure which one it was.
The Valencia is now a church- was subject of a recent article in the NY Times.
I received an E-mail as a result of my post telling me that the Valencia became a church. The Valencia was right at the 168th St station. No one seems to know what became of the Merrick. The Merrick was across the street and west putting it very close to the 160th St station. At least that's the way that I remember it. It was 45 years ago. Thanks for your response!
Karl B
Transportation improvements within the city, including everything talked about on this page, are the lowest priority.
Part of New York City's surplus will go for commuter's tax cuts. No doubt Upstate will be given a higher share of state funding in exchange for their votes on the commuter tax, at NYC's expense. Within the city, there is pressure for more spending on health care, pensions and senior citizens, where the city's spending is above average. The City Council already passed a bill increasing the cost of pensions for corrections workers by $100 million per year. The Mayor wants even more cops. Everyone is pretending they want to spend more to improve the city schools, but no one does.
Even within transportation, the call is for more operating expenditures, not new routes or solving the Manhattan Bridge problem. And even within capital expenditures, the money will all be going for suburban rail improvements. We'll be lucky if the Montigue tunnel and the Lex Express are not simply turned over to the LIRR and Metro North -- business groups have called them "underutilized" and called for direct suburban service.
Last in line for improvements, and presumably first in line for budget cuts in a recession.
[Transportation improvements within the city, including everything talked about on this page, are the lowest priority.
Part of New York City's surplus will go for commuter's tax cuts. No doubt Upstate will be given a higher share of state funding in exchange for their votes on the commuter tax, at NYC's expense. Within the city, there is pressure for more spending on health care, pensions and senior citizens, where the city's spending is above average. The City Council already passed a bill increasing the cost of pensions for corrections workers by $100 million per year. The Mayor wants even more cops. Everyone is pretending they want to spend more to improve the city schools, but no one does.]
I don't deny that what you say is true, but why is it so? Increased spending on health care surely would be a perfect illustration of the concept of diminishing returns. New York has long far outspent the rest of the nation, but for what end? I haven't noticed that city residents are living to an average age of 100 :-) Much better to use at least some of the money for transit improvements, where there most definitely *is* a need for increased spending.
Could the solution to this mystery lie in the health care lobby's much greater influence than the transit lobby's? I suspect so.
Well, to continue, I boarded a #2 for E180th. Bumpy but enjoyable Redbird ride(at least north of 34th, when the railfan window was finally free). Once on the el, the train lurched along. E 180 seemed to be on the ground at the northern end. And what was up with that platform all the way across the other side? Something from the IRT days?
Anyway, I got a #5 back to Manhattan and got a 6 at 14th Street to Bleecker. There, I transferred to B'way/ Lafayette. Last Saturday, the N was running on 6th Avenue(which was strange because I saw uptown and dowtown trains on 6th but got one from Times Square) and I got it(R-42's) across the Manhattan Bridge.
I was surprised at how high we were on the Manhattan side. Once at DeKalb, I left and headed for Hoyt St. on the IRT. I wanted to wait for a D so I could do the Brighton Line, but after 10 minutes and no D, I left. Once at B'way/Nassau via the 2, I got a 4 to Brooklyn Bridge. From there I transferred for the Nassau shuttle. When I got to Chambers Street I was impressed by the vastness of not only the station itself, but of the tunnel which was pretty darn high. I took the S to Canal and tried to connect to the N for the Sea Beach, but of course, the N wasn't running on Broadway. The Canal/Bridge Line was pretty gruesome as was the Nassau/Canal station. No chance it'll be in action soon.The third rail was up on blocks!!!
So then I had to hotfoot it to Avenue of the Americas(but who calls it that?) for the A. That took me to Hoyt/Schermerhorn for the G, which I got to Metropolitan Avenue for the Canarsie Line.
And now for the good stuff. The Brooklyn Els(what's left of them).
I took the L all the way to B'way Junction. The segment between Halsey and Bushwick was weird. Halsey in tunnel. Outbound track elevated at Wilson(overlooking a cemetary!) and back in tunnel at Bushwick only to shoot onto the el again at B'way Junction. From there I got the recently truncated Broadway El for Myrtle Avenue.
At Myrtle, I waited patiently(about 15 minutes) for the M. When it arrived, I rode out to Wyckoff. I found the area alongside very depressing. At rundown Wyckoff Av. I descended for the Canarsie line. I was glad to get into the cool albeit VERY dark mezzanine out of the 85 degrees. Once the train arrived(with a conductor standing outside the door and calling out stations all at once) I rode to 6th Avenue for the F.
After that I retraced some steps to get some photos before getting back to Penn and barely making my train.
I had the intention of riding the Brighton and Sea Beach lines, the A to the Rockaways, and the E out to Jamaica, but I didn't have the time(I had to be home by 8).
All in all a great trip and I appreciate the subway more now that I've ridden some of the lines I've only seen on "The Map".
E 180 seemed to be on the ground at the northern end. And what was up with that platform all the way across the other side?
Something from the IRT days?
It is on the ground. And the platform you saw was the New York, Westchester & Boston station at East 180th St. This was the NYW&B's primary passenger interchange to the subway. The NYW&B did not have a Manhattan terminal like the other Westchester suburban railroads.
[The NYW&B did not have a Manhattan terminal like the other Westchester suburban railroads]
Which, in large part, is why it failed after only 25 years of operations.
Can someone tell me what is the name of the line between:
Borough Hall - Franklin Ave Station (2 3 4 5)?
President St - Flatbush Ave (2 5)?
Franklin Ave - Utica Ave (3 4)?
Utica Ave - New Lots (3)?
And why di they not mention it on the signs at stations. I do recall when Lenox Ave was under construction it was called Bklyn lcl/ Exp but I don't think that this is the right name?
I don't think it has a name(I assume you mean like "Brighton Line" or "Concourse Line").
You could call it the Eastern Parkway line or Flatbush Trunk(just my suggestion-do with it what you will).
Or just "Brooklyn IRT":)
I've always thought of the Brooklyn IRT as the 'Eastern Parkway' or 'Brooklyn' line, with a 'New Lots' and a 'Nostrand Av' Branch.
I just took out a 1960s ERA reprint of a 1937 IRT map. In the listings on the flip side, the Brooklyn IRT is called the "Flatbush Avenue Eastern Pkway Line & Livonia Av.Br." (Presumably 'Br.' is 'Branch,' since that's used elsewhere throughout the route, distance and time listings.) After listing the stations from New Lots to Atlantic, there's a second heading, 'Nostrand Avenue Branch,' with stations from Flatbush to Atlantic Avenue. Strangely, on the map itself, the line from Atlantic to New Lots is called the "Brooklyn Line" and the branch to Flatbush and Nostrand ("The Junction") is called the "Nostrand Avenue Line."
So, the suggestion by Stephen Ives that you call it any of several options is a good one--when the IRT itself used different names on the maps and on the service listings, you'd be in good company.
BTW, the IRT map also includes this information--is it still accurate?
Express time from Utica Avenue to Franklin Ave. 3 minutes
Express time from Utica Avenue to Atlantic Ave. 7 minutes
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Q Train: As they were built:
Bowling Green-Atlantic Av Contract II "Brooklyn and Manhattan Rapid Transit RR"
Atlantic Av- Utica Av Contract III "Eastern Parkway Brooklyn Subway"
Utica Av-New Lots Av Contract III "Livonia Av Brooklyn Extension"
Franklin Av-Flatbush Av Contract III "Nostrand Av Subway"
Today all subway stations have a red sign posted at the end of each platform given emergency exit,track, station and line info.
According to these signs Boro Hall(2,3) is on the IRT Broadway-7 Av Line,Boro Hall (4,5) is on the Lexington Av Line.
All stations from Hoyt St through Utica Av are IRT Eastern Parkway LIne.
All Stations from President St to Flatbush Av are on the IRT Nostrand Av Line.
These signs are not posted on elevated stations but I would refer to
stations from Saratoga Av to New Lots Av as the IRT Livonia Av Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Is the location of the brake trips different between Division A and B because of the cars or was it for some superficial sort of differentiation?
I believe that it was no more sinister than the IRT and BMT were originally private corporations and each had their own signal system. More significant that the placement of the trippers is the differencew in car dimensions.
For anyone interested, there is an entire new ACELA train sitting in the 30th St. Yard. I couldn't see the engine, but it looked like a Genesis II to me(though it was covered in plastic).
There's also one of those goofy bullet shaped engines further down the tracks near the Spring Garden St. overpass.
You can get a great view from the Regional Rail platform at 30th Street.
There is a full set of the hi-speed trains plus one of the new electrics, 651, which has been here a few times in the past couple of months. The set has been attached to both an AMD103 and an FP40. There must be some testing going on.
I've noticed that subway cars have colored bands under the number decal. Since I noticed green and no red for the IRT and red and no green for the IND/BMT I assume it's a car/yard thing. Am I correct?
According to the track map book yard colors are"
240th street---- red # 1 line
239th st-------- green # 2 line
Westchester----- yellow #6 line
Jerome---------- Orange #4 line
148th street---- blue #3 line
Livonia Yard---- blue #3 line
E180------------ black *also unionport yard) #5 line
Corona---------- purple #7 line
to order the book e-mail: brakeman@nycsubway.org
Corona also has yellow squares under the number boards. Yellow for GE cars, purple for Westinghouse cars. All single cars are Westinghouse cars.
Colors on BMT/IND cars only indicate various modifications to help with issues of compatibility and have nothing to do with yard assignments.
Admittedly, I have not given Erik's suggestion as much consideration that it does deserve. His idea does have merit and I am, of course, not a PE so the following is only my opinion based on how I believe DCE Engineering might view it.
In order for it to work, the output from the speedometer, would have to be fed to a 'frequency-voltage' converter to get an analog signal. The output voltage would be used to bias a semiconductor device to either conduct or shut down. This device would likely be placed on the LG side of the Door Relay or PIR coil. In this way, if the speed, as Erik suggests, exceeds 45 MPH, the door relay circuit would open causing the train to coast. When the speed fell below 46 MPH, the door relay would pick up again, allowing the train to take power again. Placing the circuit on the LG side of the Door Relay would virtually eliminate the possibility of back-feeding the indication circuits. Of course, there are any number of possible variations of this scheme but as far as I see, they all have the same flaw.
The original basis of Erik's idea was that full field shunting would be restored. Presumably, a train would have maximum torque to negoyiate grades but the speed would be clamped at 45 MPH. Cost here is not an issue as the f-v converter and the trigger could be installed relatively cheaply. The speedos all have the RS232 port. The idea is easily do-able. The problem is that the failure of the speedometer would result in a train that could exceed 45 MPH and thereby become unsafe. The fact that the speedometer could alone trigger this failure constitutes a potential 'single point failure' and therefore would not be acceptable, as I see it.
Of course I appreciate the idea and plan to look at it deeper. A great deal of credit should be given to Erik and others like him. Despite the meddling by the bean-counters (who louse thing s up) and 'play-it-safe' managers like myself, they are constantly trying to help solve the problems of the system, often without thanks or appreciation.
45? If the trains actually got up to 35 between stations it would be an improvement. On trains where I can see the speedometer (or when the door is open), the only time in recent memory I've seen more than 28 is downhill in a tunnel. And I ride the F, D, Q, R, M, 4, 2, and 3 for variety.
There is a real competitive issue here. When subways were competing with horses, they were rapid transit. They can't compete with cars on highways, unless there is a delay at a bridge or tunnel to slow them down. But cars can to 35 on arterial streets, stopping occasionally at a light. A subway needs to go 35, stopping occasionally at a station, to keep up. If the R train can't beat a car driving up 4th Avenue and over the Brooklyn Bridge to City Hall Station, its a problem.
Well the ball is in the TA's hands now. For a couple of years by now they are realizing the savings of power consumption. Lower speeds probably mean less wear and tear on car equipment and rails. They have added over 5 minutes on most lines so their trains look like they are on time on paper. They don't look at BMT as "barely moving trains" they look at it as "big money transit" as they in my opinion have put safety aside in the name of making profits, whether it the use of defective third rail protection matting, readjustment of brake cylinder settings and dynamic brake and other numerous incidents recorded by OSHA. 5mminutes is a lot of time to add to a trip considering a train with a good operator could have easily make up a 5 to 7 minute loss with the old school. Remember that upper level management is not riding the R-68 as it climbs into Queensboro Plaza at 18 MPH.
Here's an idea to mitigate concerns over a single-point failure in the speedometer causing a modified train to travel at more than 45 mph:
The circuitry would constantly check to see whether the speedometer in the operating cab is functioning. If the speedometer did not display anything, or displayed a constant 0 mph while the controller was in a position other than "handle off," the train would revert to ENRCON propulsion profile, which is equivalent to removing the last stage of field shunting (which is how the subway cars are set up now).
Of course, whatever Erik/Steve/Jeff/anyone else comes up with would have to ignore speedometers in non-operating cabs, since a speedometer is only of interest/concern here when it's in an operating cab.
Techies?
This of course doesn't get around any issues where the speedo is displaying the wrong speed, but "functional" My answer would be two speed pickups per car, one on each truck, and only relaying the signal to the speedo display/motor contol if they agreed.
Other thoughts:
I'm assuming the controller goes through multiple steps of shunting. Does it matter what step it sits in? To what degree could speed be controlled this way?
Does the controller shunt while in series? Again, the above question applies.
Why not achive smoother control by kicking to series aroung 43 mph, then off at 46, or mucking with the shunts in a simmaler way. In effect, start cutting power as the train approaches 45, not once it hits 46.
as a backup, why not some emergency gov that would dump the brakes at, say 50 mph?
The suggestion above is getting a little complicated. Since series is good for about 20 mph it really isn't a problem. The type of control described in Steve's post is just about how the ATO works in Boston. In actuality, you do need a penalty brake application to cover downhill runs and a failsafe speedometer. An inverted circuit might work, using 36 volts for stopped and 0 volts for 45 mph. Thus a loss of output would create a 0 volts and cut power. The same question comes up though - have the accelleration rates themselves been degraded? See my last post in the prior thread.
Gerry:
By this point I've begun to completely distrust what manuals tell me. It's written that series will provide 18 MPH, but in the real world series is only good for ten. 12 or so down hill. The acceleration rates of NYC transit cars remains the same below 18 or 20 MPH. Again, despite whatever the books may say, the acceleration above that point is reduced. On level track 30 is an average speed. With distance 40 is possible. A downhill lending assistance. At 18 you only have to view the motor ammeter
to see the motor current drop like a stone. It's 100 amps by 22, and with a down grade, only 50 when you get to 40 MPH. IF you get that high.
With feild coils phasing in at around 18 or 20, #1 truck motor current stays at about 300 amps, and steadaly falls to 120 to 110 at balancing speed. Norally 50 MPH.
As I said in the post beggining this thread, down hills aren't really a problem. There are only a few where speeds above 45 are possible, and for the most part are protected by time control signals.
Those not protected-60th St tube-are already known to be at 55-60 MPH. Apparently TA sees nothing wrong here. Maybe because the long upgrade will surely bring that wonderful 55 down to a positively lethargic 18!
Steve's suggestions make me see that my idea trully is feasible. I have some follow up's. We'll be getting together soon. I hope the TA takes them seriously.
The accelleration rate is controlled by the current in a pair of motors. The higher you set that current, the faster the train accellerates. The big kick is at the point of transition where the current effectively doubles. Once it drops below the limit relay setting, the cutting out of resistance has a very small effect and full parallel is quickly attained. Engaging the shunts increases the current again but also reduces the torque, thus you don't get the kick you got at transition, just a slow ramp up to top speed. If series holds you at 10, the kick from transition bumps you up to 18, followed by a slow increase up to balancing speed. Shunting slows the rate but increases the current and top speed. A current trail (assuming 250 A rate setting and 11 steps) would show:
0 with power off
400 amps starting dropping to 250
350 amps on the second point
325 amps on the third point
300 amps on the fourth point
275 amps on the fifth point
260 amps in full series
450 amps on the seventh point
300 amps on the eighth point
275 amps on the ninth point
260 amps on the tenth point
and
255 amps in full parallel
now the shunts kick in giving about 300 amps as you noted, the current will again drop back to 250 and rise slightly as the other two steps of shunting come in, once there are no more steps left on the controller we move toward balancing speed.with accelleration declining as speed increases. Series balancing current is about 25 Amps, rising to 50 in parallel and about 70 with full shunting. You only really feel the first and second points of series, and the first point of parallel. The others are pretty imperceptable. Also remember that the current increases going uphill but the notching current doesn't. You can't change the accelleration rate from the controller in most cases. PC type control had a notching button which would force the controller to step but could overload the motors. ABF or ALF control will sit there if the motor current doesn't drop. Modern systems have more starting torque, but still lag on steep grades.
Well, I looked over some old SMEE manuals. I didn't realize how
far down the curve the TA systems were engineered in terms of
gearing and shunting. The notch-up speed for the transition from
full parallel, full field to full-parallel, 25% shunting is only
13-15 MPH under "typical load", which means level tangent track.
Remember, the notch-up speed is not the same as the balance speed.
There isn't any good formula for relating the two...you have to
look at motor curves. You could make a crude approximation and
say 2-to-1.....e.g. notch-up speed for series-parallel transition
is 9 MPH. Multiply by 2 and you get 18 MPH, which is about the
typical balancing speed on level tangent track for full series.
So is 19 MPH the balance speed on a 2% upgrade in full field
parallel? Harold's in-field data would seem to support that number.
I've seen a notching, or "tickler" button on some streetcar
PC and PCM groups, but it was not used on any of the NYC rapid
transit cars.
Someone brought up the Lo-Vs. They did not have field shunting, but
they did have weak-field in the form of tapped fields. Each field
winding on a Lo-V motor (GE259A, I think) has 3 leads, not 2.
Since that's also an interpole motor, it makes for an interesting
reverser design! ABs, Ds and R1-9s have the same thing. The tapped
field is only used as the final motoring notch; it is not used for
"smooth starting", and of course there's no dynamic braking.
Here we go with the interesting technical stuff again! Usually 'tapped' motors have one extra lead and reversed armatures - even with interpole motors. The 'F' contactors usually swap the tap lead wih the low main lead to effect the field reduction. This in turn is simply one or more main coils being cut out of the circuit (and open circuited to avoid a dynamic braking effect because the armature is turning in a shorted field coil and generating some current in that).
Tapped individual coils sound intriguing but would need several contactors and leads, but could work with a normal reverser, since only the outermost connections need to be reversed.
Yes, with tapped field motors the armature polarity is swapped,
not the fields, in reverse. Normally the field coils are swapped
to keep them closer to ground. A tapped field motor has 5 leads:
2 armature leads and 3 field leads. Now, I've never taken one
apart. Internally, are there two field coil windings per pole
piece with 4 leads per coil?
I would raise a theoretical disagreement about shorting the fields
causing dynamic braking. In fact, I was just looking over the
wiring diagram for Lo-V 5466, and in its (GE PC-10) control, in the
tapped field notch, the tapped portion of the field is effectively
short circuited.
There should be no induced EMF in a field winding, because the
flux seen by a field coil is rotationally constant (+/- minor high-frequency oscillations from fringing effects at the
edges of armature slots)
By way of comparison, each armature coil, passes under successive north and south field
poles as it revolves, thus inducing EMF.
I won't disagree on that one - but I have seen some controls which do open the main cirecuit when closing the tap. This is what led me to consider loading as a possible reason.
Gerry
The relatively low transition speed is consistent with my above sequence since the limit relay current is substantially above the current at balancing speed. In line with this full-field full parallel is also reached at fairly low speed, leaving a long ramp-up to balancing speed.
The major difference between the R-68s and the R-44s or R-46s is that they are the only 75' cars routed over the Manhattan Bridge, thus their lower horsepower to weight ratio is more noticable. Remember that an 8 car train of 68s has 32 motors while a 10 car train of 60' cars has 40. Thats 25% more horsepower! Admittedly some of that advantage is lost since there are four more trucks, eight more motors, four more control systems and at least two more compressors in the consist, but I would bet that therein lies most of the performance difference.
Oops: I got carried away - thats two more control systems and one more compressor!
Phil:
I'm very glad to have spawned this discussion. To borrow a phrase, This is the free and open exchange of ideas and opinions. Thank you David P.
To continue the discussion, I decided on a simple approach, as this is the one that will most likely reccieve consideration.
I don't believe that dumping any train is productive unless it's about to hit something. A service application is better. But the associated valves and circuitry would cost. That hampers my sales pitch. Better to let it coast at 45. There are few places where more than that is possible. They're all on down grades, and we're already doing over 50 there anyway. 60th St tube comes to mind.
The group does go through several steps of shunting, but at this time the equipment does not provide for retrograde control. Once advanced the only way to get the controller in a lesser power position is to shut it off and start again from zero. The original R-44/46 controllers did. They had the regulated speed provisions, and the ability to retrograde the group box controller was key to that end. So controlling speed this way is do-able. I suggested putting in at least one point of shunting on the R-68's to help with their less than stellar performance. Like talking to a wall.
Feild shunting is used in the initial steps of acceleration to cushion power application. Ever notice how Lo-V cars really jerk when power is first applied from a stop? They didn't have field shunt coils.
Good thoughts. I hope to see more constructive thinking out there.
Interesting point, Erik, about the lurching start-up on the Lo-Vs. The same thing happens on light-weight streetcars (such as when they have no passengers on-board), even in the first point of series power. So at Seashore we teach our motormen to take the first point simultaneously with releasing the straight-air brake -- similar to slightly slipping a clutch on a motor vehicle. The result is a smoother start. Now of course with trains that have pre-SMEE train-air, it's trickier, as the timing is different due to the "signal" lag that results in the brake release.
Yes, but you still feel that bump as the power is applied. The trucks' suspension takes up the brunt of the force. Unfortunately a lot of our NYCTA train operators (motormen know better) take power before the brakes are released. The only affect is the annoying squeal of the train beggining to move with brakes applied.Ugh.
The brake release/power apply squeal is standard on Boston's Blue & Orange Line trains. The Hawker-Sidley cars used on both lines have Cineston controllers (single handle, like R-44/46s). Operators routinely go from full service brake to the full running power notch in one full swoop, without letting the brakes release very briefly in "coast." EEEEEEEEKKKKKKKK!
Do the LIRR M-1s know better than to do that silly trick? They seem to periodically roll backwards right before tasking off when the m/m does this...
I have no direct knowledge of LIRR m/m training, but my observation is that most take a brief pause in 'coast' before taking power.
Don't forget that those have P-wire braking as noted elsewhere too.
Maybe they have the "forced coast relay" that the TA decided to install on the westinghouse R-68 cars ecause of their headbanging power surges they had when they were delivered.
I'm not really sure what the "Forced Coast Relay" is. Are you referring to the Field Forcing Relay. If so, this was not installed by the TA. It was always part of the Westinghouse XCB248S control package.
(BTW: Westinghouse R-68 is redundent since all R-68s are Westinghouse)
I don't know the details. I do remember the RTO bulletin regarding the power surges those cars made. Seems as if a motorman went from coast to power while the train was moving, it would make a tremendous surge foward. If I do recall correctly, a few people were hurt from this.
In response, CED put a time delay relay in the master cotrol circuit? It took a few years, it wasn't until around 1990 that this problem went away.
I do know that if you open the CB+ breaker there is a relay that clicks in the off side cabinet. I'm guessing this is the one that controls the forced coast. That's what the RTO bulletin described it as.
I know around 1990 or a little after the TA modified the R-68 fleet with a forced coast relay. What this did is time delayed the cars ability to take power after the release of straight air. The initial problem occured when releasing the brakes about 20 MPH where as the rakes were originally too slow in releasing, the dynamic faded and the cylinder applied while the straight air was still decreasing. After clearing a slow timer or just plain stopping short of a car marker if you went to a power position the train would severely jerk hard, causing injury. In one case in Concourse Yard, the excess power was so severe when I worked track test in 1989, it broke a shear pin while making an add in front of car equipment personnel. There was a bulletin issued to RTO after 1990 and Im sure it is in your diagrams somewhere.
M cars have a power interlock that prevents them from taking power while the brakes are applied. The pressre settings are supposed to be around 5 to 7 psi(inshot pressure) and that should hold the cars from moving the second or two it takes to get power on.
Sometimes, an Engineer will wait a moment to apply power. It's good procedure to allow the brakes time to release. Don't worry, it won't roll more than a few inches before it begins to take off.
ALP44 locomotives and the AEM7 also have this interlock.
I would imagine that some would suppose on the R-44/46 that you could hook it up to the air brake light circuit but each car has a pressure switch hooked up to the individual brake cylinder branch pipe which leads me to this question. If one car has a leaky J-Relay or a stuck application magnet valve how will you be able to take power from a standing start? If a train in the yard let say my favorite main shop guys are shoving cars (pulled angles)are we going to have to sectionalize then BCO everything behind them? Last but not least if we have to go by sealed cabinets, new air valves,with associated cutouts and rulebook changes behind them are we turning one great solution into a thousand new problems. Id like to see faster trains too but not if the operators can't handle them.
this seems like a topic with no real correct answer. After a station stop or any stop for that fact once brakes are released the m/m will take power a rule of thumb is never to let your train roll back. if your train is on an upgrade after a stop before the brakes fully release its practical not to mention safe to take power to avoid a roll back. Plenty of cars brakes squeal for different reasons new brake shoe pads, incorrectly or maladjusted brakes but a trains brakes will squeak from time to time. In some cases once brakes are released the electric brake circuit is supposed to release all cars simultaneously some brake shoes are still too close to the wheels causing screeching as train is taking power.
How about adding a DPDT relay so that trainline GS is opened and the 5 energized (mini brake)during overspeed conditions arriving from the speedometer? I noticed when operating the R-46 that just by moving the valve lightly towards application closing the dynamic brake contact switch in the controller applies the dynamic even though the valve is not far enough lapped to apply straight air to the pipes.
"How about adding a DPDT relay so that trainline GS is opened and the 5 energized (mini brake)"
From a purely technical point of view, on R-46s energizing the 5 wire does not automatically translate into a brake request. In order for the GE propulsion package to set up for a dynamic brake, there must be air in the Straight Air Pipe (SAP). The Dynamic Brake Rate Transducer (DBRT) senses the air in the SAP and produces a dynamic brake effort equivalent to the pneumatic request. (On the R-46 in particular, mini brake translates to a SAP = 15 PSI when moving from power or coast and SAP = 22 PSI when moving from full service to mini.)
By the way GS is no longer really GS. The GS wire has replaced the 6 wire and the 6 wire is used for energy conservation.....
Steve, I know what he's talking about. I've seen it too. I always assumed a faulty SAP needle on the gauge. But it does seem to happen a lot.
Steve the next time you deadhead with your favorite T/O ask him/her to drop the A/B or B2 and go past the snow brake on ME 43 or mini brake on R-46 only. You should be able to take a point of dynamic with no straight air. BTW to the genius out there who wired the R-44s after overhaul so they have NO DYNAMIC with an open A/B circuit and they take dynamic brake with an open Control Cutout: Thanks for making the TA more confusing than it should be.
I used to get a big kick out of the way a train would jerk forward when power was applied. When I started riding the subway regularly, I got so immersed in it all that I would stomp my foot when I was ready to walk (OK, jog) from one place to another at home just to imitate that lurch. Put it this way: back in 1967-68, I lived, ate, and slept thinking about the subway. When it came time to put covers on my textbooks at school, I would arrange my name and subject one on top of the other, and draw an R-32 style sign box around the whole thing, complete with crank knobs.
It wasn't just the old equipment, either. As I recall, the SMEE cars did it, too. The R-44s and R-46s were the first cars that didn't jerk forward. It's not nearly as noticeable on GOH equipment now.
Steve, you sound like me. I had help though. When I was sixteen, I had an internship with the TA. All throughout the summer of 1986 I worked (played) at the 207th Street shops. I brought home side route signs. When they unroll, it's close to 30 feet. Great wallpaper for my room. Mom loved it.
When the R-44 cars got the Westcode brake equipment, the original motorman's console's were being tossed into the trash. I salvaged several. Set one up in my room, and using the P-wire potentiometer got it to run my model trains. Shame I couldn't afford model subway cars. Looked strange seeing that thing controlling frieght trains around my room.
To this day I still consider it the time of my life. My first real girlfriend, a great summer job, no real responsibilities. Trains, trains, trains.
I was a terrible scavanger, too. I used to bother all the foremen for any thing collectible. I grabbed up R-9 builders plates, the little tag that states: "Property of City of New York" hard hats, you name it. The best was I managed to get at least one of every type of key and tool for the cars. Brake handles, reverser keys, all of them. That was my favorite souvenier. The set of keys I had from back then is the same set I use at work every day now.
Actually, the presence of the RS232 port doesn't really do much.
It does, however, indicate that there's a microcontroller
inside the box. Perhaps a new PROM could get blown {hhh}
which would output a signal to energize a relay which could
interrupt the circuit. I wouldn't worry about backfeeding
21 wire..there are a bunch of contact breaks in that circuit
besides doors....what's another?
However, I would not use 21 circuit because it's too easy
to bypass with the side door bypass button. Also, and this
applies to interrupting the Control Cutout too, when this thing
kicks in the train will be coasting with no 3 or 5 wire, and
guess what, no dynamics when the m/m pulls the brake handle back.
I would install a 4-pole relay in the junction box under the m/c.
Drive it from the output of the speedometer. On Thursday night
I'll look over some wiring diagrams and suggest where to put
the wires :)
Of course, I'm not sure how Erik's suggestion or any of the
technical variants fit into the system safety picture. This
permanent enercon mod was done as a cheap fix. Nevertheless,
engineers went up and down the system evaluating top speeds
and stopping distances with this mod in effect. It isn't so
much limiting the top speed of the trains to x MPH..since clearly
that isn't being done now. Trains can still top 50 in river
tubes. It's more a matter of with the mod in place, trains no
longer reach speeds in excess of the signal/braking safety
limit anywhere in the system. You can cut off power at 45 MPH,
but that might still create a bunch of places in the system
on downgrades where speed will become excessive.
There's another way you can fix all of this, but it's expensive
and semi-permanent: just change the gearing on the fleet.
Well, I'm back in town now so I can look over my prints.
I'll take the tacky route and follow-up to my own posting.
In re the earlier discussions about using the door relay circuit
to drop power in an overspeed condition: Don't do it! You don't
want to drop out dynamics too.
I would suggest obtaining an output from the speedometer module
which is energized when speed is under the threshold, grounded
otherwise. Run that to a relay located in the junction box
under the m/c. Put nice tamper-resistant screws on the box and
a lead seal to minimize the chance of in-field re-engineering.
The relay has 4 poles. When energized, it leaves the 3, 5, 6
and GS circuits intact. When dropped out, it energizes 3 and 5,
providing dynamic spotting, and interrupts 6 and GS. A 3-pole
bypass switch, protected with a lead seal, allows the relay contact
breaks in the 3 5 and GS circuits to be bypassed and restores
normal operation, but leaves 6 de-energized forcing "local" mode.
Oh, and I would really suggest reversing the contacts on all the
ECR relays to make the 6 wire more failsafe: energized for express
mode, de-energized for local mode.
Good suggesions. Do you mind that I incorporate them in to the final proposal?
Sheldon Silver and others are holding a pulic forum on the 2nd Ave subway, Thursday June 3rd 7-9PM. The place is at P.S. 20, 166 Essex St, between Houston & Stanton Sts. To get there, you can take the F to 2nd Ave and walk east along Houston, or take the F or J train to Essex-Delancey and walk north along Essex.
I took a nice ride today on a midday #7 Flushing Express from Grand Central to Main Street. The Flushing Line is where the World's Fair R-33 and R-36's still hold forth. Once we left Queensboro Plaza we switched to the middle track (IRT C-1) and had a nice ride on the concrete viaduct to 46 St and then turned onto Roosevelt Av,just as we passed 52 St we encountered that bain of TA express services,the grade time signals which slowed us up on our approach to 61 St. Leaving 61 St the #7 express had a chance to show her stuff and we had a fast run to Junction Blvd where we caught up to the local and met a Manhattan-bound local at the same time,a three way meet. Leaving Junction Blvd we made common cause with the local to 103 St but then said goodbye to those slowpokes. Approaching 111 Street things got interesting. Not only are there very few double deck elevated sections left but this is the only one to still have double deck elevated express service. Being a express we dutifully climbed to the upper level which is the proper place for an express on an el and passed through (or over) 111 Street at a good clip but had to slow down approaching Willets Point. Yes, grade time signals again.
Leaving Willets Point we passed the mother of all auto junk yards and over what was the ROW of the LIRR Whitestone Branch. I couldn't even make out details of the roadbed. Out side the portal we stopped for about 20 seconds until a pocket was free at Main Street where we arrived on track C-4.
Its a great run and its nice to have the midday service back.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I understand you, believe me. I love riding the IRT #7 when it is in express service (6.30am to 12.00pm inbound to Manhattan, 12.30pm to 9pm outbound to Main Street Station).
In fact, I am a mere 10-20 minutes travel via bus to Main Street from where I live in Flushing, Queens, N.Y.
Ill try it one day after work......
My visit yesterday was on a Saturday but I will post my observations on the 7 line here since this is the active thread at the present. As always, the equipment on the 7 line was clean, the service was frequent and the only objectionable item I observed was the scratchitti on almost every window. (And I know how expensive that glass is so I am not advocating replacing it, it's just too bad that our youth can't fond less destructive things to do with their time.
As noted elsewhere the cars seem to transition to parallel very quickly and not together. Thus, just after starting there is a lot of coupler banging, Sadly, because of the fast notch-up, some of the accellerative advantage of series running seems to be lost.
Now as far as running was concerned we did ok considering the local stops and so forth. But in the river tunnel the performance was dreadful. Westbound there are a string of 30 MPH grade timers leading to a single 20 MPH at the bottom of the grade. The train had a green on every signal - that works out to about 22 MPH down to the last one and then 16 there. This was also true on the eastbound run. It seems like the t/os are afraid to challemge the timers - or afraid of the consequences if they get tripped. the bottom line is the train has little or no momentum tackleing the upgrade run and it seems like an endless ascent to Grand Central where you can see the station from the bottom of the grade. I don't lnow what the speedometer reads during this process, so I can't verify my speed estimates, but the way time lights work is the signal clears from red to green (or yellow) as you approach it, if you are traveling at the indicated speed. If it clears as you approach the preceeding signal - you are going too slow!
Gerry
You are indicating you saw one shot and two shot timers.One shot timers are timers where you approach a signal that's red.If you go at the allowable speed for that area, the signal will clear(yellow or green).Two shot timers are a set of timers where if you approach a signal at allowable speed,THE FOLLOWING SIGNAL WILL CLEAR.The signal you are approaching is clear already, usually with an illuminated "S" lit underneath the signal.The aspect on the signal is yellow.
I was out at Queensboro Plaza today at the east end of the upper level when a #7 train of R-33/36 WF Redbirds arrived at the same time an N train of R-68's came in.
As the R-68's had just made that though climb up out of the tunnel they were given a head start of about a car length when the Redbirds took off,not only did they catch up to the 68's but the last Redbird car cleared the station before the tail end of the N train. I know the 11 car #7 was about 39 feet shorter then the 8 car R-68,but there also about 20 years older.
Maybe those BMT cars need some Geritol.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In all fairness, leaving Queensboro Plaza upper level, the #7 trains have no speed restriction, yet the N trains have grade time signals due to the very sharp curve going around the curve toward BeeBee Ave.
There is a miscellaneous sign signal 20MPH north of the Plaza on track 2.Most people don't follow it though.It is in effect all the way to 33rd st-Rawson.
I remember talking to a M/M out of my class three years ago who told me they caught 14 T/Os with the guns at Rawson in one rush hour.
I remember talking to a M/M out of my class three years ago who told me they caught 14 T/Os with the guns at Rawson in one rush hour.
They have to watch out at 45rd and Hunterspoint ave also on track 2,15mph going into 45rd,15 or 20 going into Hunterspoint.
That and a set of headers and a racing cam.
Or maybe some Nestle's Quik.
I bet they think they're old BMT Standards (yeah, RIGHT!). They even wear the same numbers. Heck, I bet the Museum BMT Standars could beat 'em. The D-Types did.
Wayne
Of course, the R-68s don't moan and groan the way the BMT standards did, but I think you're right - the standards probably could outrun the R-68s, even though they were several tons heavier.
BTW, speaking of BMT standards, how did they used to fare in the 60th St. tunnel? I wonder how far their pitch dropped from the time they bottomed out in the tunnel to when they reached Queensboro Plaza. In the 14th St. tunnel, their pitch would drop by as much as a major sixth, from G# to B.
There have been recent postings about the Sea Beach being relegated to inferior "via tunnel" local service to and in Manhattan on Broadway. At least one writer stated that there has been (and I assume continues to be) an effort to destroy what was southern Brooklyn BMT service, by gradually cutting it back, eliminating (as on the N) express operations, etc. It seems this has nothing to do with the Manhattan Bridge situation.
If so, why? What is there to be gained? How might N service be further degraded? Is the same in store for B (and M), and R service? Would the MTA dare degrade Brighton D/Q service, considering how busy that line is? The idea of replacing trains south of DeKalb Ave. by buses was noted. Totally unacceptable. One writer noted a significant drop of riders on these lines (does this include the D/Q in Brooklyn, too?) blaming it, I think, on the poor service there. Has the population of train users in southern Brooklyn actually gone down there? If not, are they now using autos to get to work?
Something doesn't seem right about this because a few months ago, someone posted information about frequency changes on different lines planned for the fall 1999. The B was shown to be getting significantly (I think) improved service, dropping from around every 10 minutes to every seven minutes, if I remember correctly. Why would this be done if patronage had gone down?
I found myself somewhat amused, in a small way, by the hand-wringing about the N-dilemmas with the extra-long ride to Manhattan: why not simply get off at 36th St. and take the B? That goes express over the bridge, and is an express in Manhattan. That should shave 10-15 minutes off a trip to, and from Manhattan, I'd imagine. And when the Manhattan Bridge is finally (!!!!) fixed and both sides are open, the N will return to its express status, I guess.
Another question: if the B frequency will be increased, does that provide the possibility of peak direction express service between 36th St. and Bay Parkway? (Has B/M ridership gone down, stayed the same or gone up, over the last 5 years?)
I'd appreciate your thoughts on these comments.
Mike Rothenberg
The bridge problem provides a capacity contraint, which has affected all service via DeKalb. Too many people pack on the B, D, Q to avoid the twisting turning run through the tunnel now. Those trains are packed. There is a car shortage, but it comes down to the bridge. New cars could be bought. It isn't a conspiracy -- if it didn't cost money, the problem would be solved.
Ridership fell substantially on these lines after the bridge problem started (I have 1980 to 1990 data). People with jobs in Manhattan avoid moving to those areas. Ridership rose elsewhere in Brooklyn -- housing prices too.
I'd be interested to know if F service rose during those years as well, since it doesn't use the bridge and paralells the lines in question.
(Did F service rise as other service was cut?) Nope, although to be fair the F isn't all that packed in Brooklyn. In many places, the is equadistant from the B, N or D/Q. But since the F is local all the way, it isn't any faster than the others even with the Manhattan Bridge delays.
The MTA proposal to ameliorate the effect of this disruption was to line the DeKalb trains to the Rutgers tunnel, so 2 or 3 trains could go via the tunnel. Estimated cost $600 million.
That connection should have been made years ago. It would have really come in handy now. I understand there was a proposal to do just that in the late 60s, but it was ignored.
Larry,
Do you have information on how much ridership fell on the different lines? I'd think that those routes going over the bridge now (B, D and Q) haven't been diverted and their ridership wouldn't have fallen. But I have no specific data and you apparently do, including information on falling house prices. It would be educational to us all if you would be able to post information on the neighborhoods where housing prices fell, along with the correlation to worsening train service. Also, are people also moving out of those neighborhoods and are they becoming abandoned?
You seem to have a good grasp of the demographics and financial elements with regard to transit service changes (read that as declines) and I'm sure we'd all be enlightened with your information.
Could you answer this question? I'm sure I read a posting some months ago about an increase in service on the B line (to seven minute headways around peak periods, down from about 10 minute headways). If my memory is correct, what do you attribute this service improvement to? Is it due to increased ridership in the Bronx and upper Manhattan rather than in Brooklyn? Or?
Thanks.
Mike Rothenberg
I suspect that during the past years there's been an increase in express bus patronage from some of the areas served by the Southern Division lines. As the Manhattan Bridge problem has made the subway ride worse for many riders, perhaps they've found the one-seat express bus trip more tolerable, especially once the fare went down from $4 to $3.
I spoke to one such person who used express buses, and yes, the comfort and speed of the express buses makes the extra fare more than worth it. Glad to see the TA noticed this as well.
In The NY Daily News Thursday June 3, page 5, ''Anguish not Anger'', and the NY Post Thursday June 3, page 20, ''Why was attacker free?''is an article about Edgar Riveria who lost his legs when he was pushed in front of the #6 train on April 29.
After the good folks read these two articles, your excellent thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Eugene Moreau , my great grandfather died as a result of a tunnel accident in New York. I am trying to determine when the accident happened and what information you may have on this man.
Jim,
Sorry to hear it. Unfortunately you're probably in the wrong place. This is not the New York City Transit Authority's web site.
However, you can probably find some information about him by checking: The Social Security Death Index at http://www.ancestry.com/ssdi/advanced.htm has death dates going back many years. The New York Times might have an obituary index you could search- if he died in a NYC subway/tunnel accident it is probably newsworthy as well once you knew the date of the accident. The NYCT Assistance line might be able to point you to old personnel records (718-330-3322). The New York Public Library (http://www.nypl.org) has a research service that might be able to do some of the legwork for you, for a fee.
Hope this helps,
-Dave
will go on sale at stations below on 6/14/1999 at 0700 (7am)
Broadway/Lafayette. Bleecker- BDFQ6
Prince--NR
47-50 BDFQ
23,28 ---6
42--- BDFQ
72---1239
59/Lex ----456NR
51/Lex-46EF
(I have grouped stations with free transfers)
Do you mean WABY.com the NY internet radio station or is WBAY something new?
--Mark
Live from new job :)
Or maybe EBAY.com?
-Hank
[Do you mean WABY.com the NY internet radio station or is WBAY something new?]
I'd say the former, as wbay.com is the site of a Wisconsin television station that presumably has little interest in MetroCards :-)
Nice going Mark! You passed my test :-) it IS WABY
Ahh ... just seeing if we're all paying attention .... well, we are! :)
--Mark
Was going over some old copies of The Street Railway Review last night. No. 15 (1976) has a cover of June 1937 Steinway Lines #1680 with a NY & Queens County Birney far behind (both later to become Queens Surface Corp. bus routes). The text says "1680 ... is on lease from the Third Ave. Ry System ...". I'm of the belief that Steinway Lines was acquired by the Salzberg family in 1942. Did Harry/Murry buy it from 3rd Ave ?
P.S. The Salzbergs' bought Queens-Nassau (NY & Queens County) in 1932.
Mr t__:^)
I'm working on a story about someone travelling on the D train from downtown Manhattan to Yankee Stadium. I'm trying to find out when that line opened. And the D does stop at 125th St, correct?
--Phil Mintz
Yes, the D Train does stop at 125th Street (& St Nicholas Ave).
The sections of the D Train that one may travel from W 4th St to Yankee Stadium opened as follows:
- W 4 St to 59th St (Columbus Circle) - 12/15/1940
- 59th St - 145th St - 9/10/1932
- 145th St - Yankee Stadium (actually Bedford Park Blvd) 7/1/1933.
Happy writing!
--Mark
Just remember, if you're headed to Yankee Stadium during PM rush hours, you'll have to take B train to get off at 161st St. The northbound D doesn't stop there then. It wallows past at about 25 mph, if that.
Your reference to 125th St. reminds me of when the R-32s first appeared on the D in December of 1967. We were heading back to Port Authority from Macy's and took a D train of R-32s to 59th St. As we got off, I heard the conductor announce: "Next stop on this train will be 125th St." He did not say, "Stand clear and watch the closing doors." Man, did I want to stay on that train! At that point, I had been on an express jaunt up CPW on a D of R-1/9s a few weeks earlier. Unfortunately, we were pressed for time, so we changed to an A to 42nd St. I watched that D train leave the station, and by the time the last car whipped past, it was flying!
Not sure when your story takes place but other usefull tid bits that might be incorperated include:
The Yankee Stadium stop has been refered to as 161st and River Avenue.
Also, the 155th Street Stop in Manhattan, was the sight of the Polo Grounds where the NY Giants played untill they moved to San Fran in 1958. I believe that the Mets played there too beginning in 1962 when they joined the National League until Shea Stadium was built in the Mid 60's and the Polo Grounds were torn down.
Once about 10 years ago I was going to Yankee Stadium and when the train stopped at 155 the conductor announced it as "Polo Grounds" I thought that was great.
Another thing about the subway and Yankee Stadium is, they use to give out free return rides on Sundays. It was a blue slip that looked like a bus transfer and entitled the bearer to a free ride. If you went to the game on Sunday 40'000 people would pack the station where they would just leave the station doors open for crowds to file past waving these blue slips.
About as far downtown in Manhattan as you might get on a "D" train is Chinatown - Grand Street and Chrystie. Steve is right - rush-hour "D"s do NOT stop at 161st St-River Avenue (that's what the name tablet says). Get off at 145th and take the "B". And the "D"s lumber along at 20-25MPH thru 161st St - think that a Grade Timer's there, along with probably a 20MPH yellow sign for a nifty 90-degree curve east of the station. It's not ALL the R68's fault.
Wayne
I've been told that when the Yankees have a weekday night game at home, the D train stops running express in the Bronx earlier than usual and makes local stops so that fans headed for the game on the D train do not have to change for the B at 145th Street. I don't know the details about this, but when I headed to a Yankee game last year and hit 145th Street around 6:30 pm, the train was on the local track and the conductor made a special announcement that those headed to Yankee Stadium should stay on the train.
This is true. The Dispatcher at 59 Master Tower will check if there is a Yankee game. If so she will begin telling Northbound D's to accept the local line up, make local stops.
Isn't there access to the center track north of the station? I know there's a southbound connecting track, but is there one Northbound? If so, maybe they can go express after 161st. Maybe I'll leave early and check it out on my way to the game. Let's go METS!
-Hank
I believe that there is an xover to the southbound track for extra movements, to 59th St?
The switches at 161 on the D are south of the station. The next northbound switch to track C 3-4 (middle) is north of 167. These switches are not controlled by 59 master. I am not aware of any master tower on the Concourse line, so I presume these switches are controled by local towers that are not staffed regular. 59 master tower controls the interlockings from 145 both levels to just south of 59st.
Mike Lyons, There is a tower at 167th street just north of the southbound local track that controls the crossovers at that station. The tower at 167th street is staffed during the rush hour and if there is any track work from 167th street to 145th street.
Their used to be a tower at the south end of the downtown local at 161st street, but is now boarded up due to workers fixing up the station at 161st and Yankee Stadium B and D line.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Why did the MTA change the B and C in upper Manhattan and the Bronx?
Paul: The line from 145 St-205 St opened on July 1,1933,however the initial service was provided by the "C Concourse-8 Av Exp" and the "CC Concourse-8 Av Local." The "D Concourse-6 Av Express did not start running until December 15,1940.
Larry,RedbirdR33
David, your E-mail address is not working. I have a question to ask of Mr. Train Control.
An article from the New York Times was sent to me. It's about the wreck at Roosvelt Av. in the 70's.
That's not what I'm interested in though. The article also contains a track diagram. It shows a switch from 1 to 3 at Woodhaven Blvd. Was there ever one there? I know several of those local stations have rooms at the end of platforms with windows. They could have been towers at one time.
Northern Blvd still does.
Check your archives and let me know. And fix your E-mail!
I know there is an open area north of Woodhaven blvd that ends with a wall.It appears that some alternate route was planned at one time.You could see it from D1 and D2 tracks.
There are trackways west of 63rd Drive which branch off the local tracks. They are similar to the trackways east of Roosevelt Ave. Both would have linked up to the Winfield Spur which would have led to the Rockaways via the Central Ave. line. Provision was made for both a direct Manhattan-bound connection to the Queens line, as well as a terminal at Roosevelt Ave. In addition, Woohaven Blvd. was designed to be converted to an express station, if needed.
I have a question which may have been asked before but I am new to this site so I have never seen it.
Why is it that there is a 10 car string of R62's that run on the #2 tracks in the Bronx but these cars are labeled to be in #1 or #3 service? I have noticed that this train(s) runs both in the day and in the early evenings. It doesn't stop at any station but pauses temporarily at 180th Street.
Also, I was wondering if anyone had any information as to when the R142 cars would begin revenue service. Have they started to arrive from Kawasaki and Bombardier, or have they been built yet? Thank You.
There R62A'S are from the No.6 Line and is used mainly for OPTO on the No.5 Dyre Ave Shuttle. That train may run during Rush Hours if they need the train. I have seen that train with No.2 signs.
The #1/#9 and #3 trains don't have a car wash in there yard which is 240th yard (1 train yard) and 148th st yard (#3 yard ) so they go to the #2 yard (239th yard ) to get clean or wash during the day
The No.1/9 Trains use 207 Street car wash. But some No.1 trains may go to 239 Yard.
The R-142s haven't been delivered yet, and won't be for a while. Prior threads have much more information on the subject that I won't rehash here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When did the Manhattan Els start coming down and why? Was it because of the growing subway service or politics?
The first el to go was the 6th Ave line, in 1938. Then the 9th in 1940. Both became redundant when the IND opened on 8th Ave. (1932) and 6th Ave. (1940). The Second Ave el was torn down in 1942. The 3rd Ave el was slated to be torn down at the same time, but was kept running during the war because of the massive need for mass transit at the time. It was finally demolished in 1955, with the understanding that the 2nd Ave. subway would replace it, which it still hasn't to this day. Els were always hated by those who lived around them, and were gleefully torn down as soon as a subway line was available to take its place or ridership dropped to a level that further service became unwarranted. Once the city took control of all 3 subway divisions almost all els that couldn't support modern subway cars were shut down and demolished.
Believe it or not, Manhattan El trackage started shrinking by 1930.
The first segment to be dismantled was the 42nd St GCT branch from 3rd Ave. I have a question about this one. Was this the original terminal before the structure was continued north?, just as the 6th ave terminus at 58th St.
The original 6th Ave stub terminal station at 58th St was eliminated.
The 34st Branch of the 3rd Ave line that served the LIRR ferries was removed about 1931.
The entire 6th, 9th and uptown portion of the 2nd Ave El were demolished from 1939 to 1940 with the completion of the 8th Ave Subway. The 2nd Ave line was a direct line to the 39/40 Worlds Fair via the Queensboro Bridge. Hence, that and the downtown portion remained for a while. The remainder of the 2nd Ave line was demolished in 1941. However, both southern terminals remained, South Ferry & City Hall. The Park Row Terminal of the Brooklyn Bridge BRT/BMT lines also was demolished during WWII.
The 3rd Ave Line was cut back to Chatham Sq and the City Hall Branch was demolished in 1951. The remainder of the 3rd Ave line in Manhattan was in service until 1955.
By 1956, the only trace of the Manhattan Els remained at the Polo Grounds at 155th St. And Technichally, this was not a Manhattan el structure as the original terminal was built for the New York & Northern Railroad which came across the river there and the elevated railway shared the terminal.
There may have been some earlier designs to have the NY&N use the 9th Ave elevated structure but that was was blocked by the financial interestes of the time.
The same may hold true for the original crossing of the Harlem River by what was the original Suburban line that was controlled by the New Haven Railroad that had a terminal at 129th St.
No - the entire Manhattan portion of the 3rd Ave El opened in 1878, including the branch to 42/GCT. Through trains operated to 129th St. The Bronx portion came later.
The reason I asked that question, is that in lieu of a difinitive history of the 3rd Ave, I only have a 1 paprgaph note in an ELECTRIC RAILROADS (of rhe ERA) from 1956 that states that the line opened on Aug 26, 1878 identifying the stations north from South Ferry to 42nd St. The branch to GCT diverged at this point. The mainline continued north. The stations north to 67th St opened Sept 16, 1878. The stations north to 89th St opened Dec 9, 1878, and finally those north to 129th St opend on Dec 30, 1878.
I have the dates of the branch closings mentioned earlier.
Dec 6 ,1923 - 42nd St / GCT Branch closes.
June 16, 1924 - 58th St Spur closes.
June 14, 1930 - 34th St Branch closes.
It was never intended that Grand Central be the northern terminal of the el,rather it might be better to say that 42 St/3 Av was the first northern terminal and that a branch was opened at the same time between that station and Grand Central. Looking at a track map from the period 1893-1903 there were switches located north of 42 St on the main for turning trains. The Grand Central branch while it had two tracks only had a single track connection going southbound into the southbound track at 42 St. There was no direct access from the northbound track into the branch.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS A fourth branch closing was the Harlem River Branch on 4/14/24
If the Harlem River Branch was the connection to the New Haven RR,
that line remained to 1956. I walked up that structure from the NH yard while the entire Bronx structure remained to the river (till 1959/60). The bridge was dismantled as part of the Manhattan demolition.
I was refering to passenger service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In most cases, end of service means end of (El) structure.
However, the Willis Ave connector structure to/from the White Plains Road line remained (in non revenue service) until 50/51 long after the 2nd Ave line ceased operations in 1939 and no service from the 3rd Ave line was substituted, unless there was WWII service that I am not aware of.
In the case of the Brooklyn Els half of the system came down with the closing of the Brooklyn Bridge line. Only the Myrtle and Lexington Ave El lines remained. The Lexington came down in the 50/51 reducion of NY City Elevated lines and branches. The 3rd Ave line south of Chatham Sq, the City Hall Branch, the Bronx Park Branch (on the White Plains Road Line also). I think the IRT/BMT dual service in the Queens lines ended then also. I do not know what else happen in Brooklyn transit at that time except for a drastic reduction of the trolley lines and the complete abandonment of the Third Ave Railway (trolley) lines in the Bronx any all Manhattan trolley lines.
This was obviously one of the worst times for NYC rail transit except for the years when the 2nd, 6th, and 9th Ave Els came down along with the Brooklyn Bridge line, most of the Fulton Ave El all of the 5th / 3rd Ave line in Brooklyn. Someone will have to tell me the rationale for keeping th Myrtle and Lexington Ave lines, and not keeping the Brooklyn Bridge connection of this system. The 5th/3rd Ave line was replaced by the 4th Ave Subway. The Fulton Ave line was replaced by the IND subway beneath it.
Oh, here is a question I forgot to ask about the Franklin Ave line.
Back when there was a place called Ebbets Field, how much revenue did that place generate for the Franklin Ave line, or was that the reason it remained even after being cut from the Fulton Ave El, and, also as a southern route to Ebbets Field and Prospect Park.
While I am going on,,,,
This brings up an earlier posting of mine from last year, that is, dual third rails on the IRT White Plains (Westchester Ave) and the Jerome Ave line. I do not have the photographic evidence to back it up, but I believe that the Jerome Ave line north of the Sedgwick Ave junction (Polo Grounds shuttle / 9th Ave El) had dual third rails. Uncovered for the Elevated equipment, covered, (possibly a transition time expediency) for the subway equipment.
Since the 2nd/3rd Ave operations up the Westchester Ave line are well before my time, I have to assume that there was open or dual third rails on that line, although I have not seen any photographic or written evidence of open third rail on that structure. The history of the Westchester Ave line indicates that 2nd/3rd Ave El Trains used the line (via the 149th St connector) before the Harlem river tunnel(s) were completed as may be the case with the Jerome Ave / 9th Ave El Line tunnel. The other possibility is that light(er) weight subway equipment with subway shoes used the subway/el structures. However, that seems unlikely, because when the Bronx 3rd Ave line was converted to covered third rail, the outboard wooden guides had to be knocked off the exposed el third rails to allow the subway cars with subway shoes to operate during the transition time. By the way, most of the former wooden el cars were stored on the center track from 161st St to Tremont Ave at that time also. I do have a 20's picture of subway type (composite cars, I guess) with overrunning third rail shoes operating on the 3rd Ave El.
We have discounted the use of dual third rails on the BMT lines.
However, I still have this nagging memory of dual third rails on the Jerome Ave Line.
I believe that one factor that led to the elimination of service over the Brooklyn Bridge was a devastating fire near Sands Street in 1944.
Didn't train service over the Brooklyn Bridge end in the 1930's?
Elevated train service over the Brooklyn Bridge ended in 1944. Streetcar service was then moved to the tracks formerly used for rapid transit. (The streetcars had been in the middle lanes; they moved to the inner ones.) Around 1950 the trolleys were discontinued too, and all lanes on the bridge were converted to auto use.
I'm not sure about a fire at Sands Street in 1944; perhaps someone else has information about this. I assume the Myrtle Avenue el was kept to provide local service in Brooklyn. The MTA, in one of its earliest policy decisions, replaced the el with buses in 1969.
I'm not totally certain but it seems that the fire was an excuse to close what surpirisngly had become a little used line. Also as it occurred during the war it may not have been possible for the BOT to obtain the steel to effect repairs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The primary access to the bridge was from the Fulton and 5th Av. lines. Myrtle and Lexington trains had to run almost parallel to the bridge and make a U turn to reach the bridge tracks. With the other routes gone the remaining two lines probably transferred more passengers to the subways than they carried over the bridge - thus the closing of the more efficient lines led to the closing of the bridge tracks, and the later cutback to Myrtle & Bridge.
I think the various subway tunnels built in the years after the Brooklyn Bridge was completed had taken much of the traffic away from the bridge trains.
And just remember as I said before: The REAL reason the 3rd Ave el was torn down: after KIng Kong wrecked a portion of it, the city being in the midst of the depression and with LaGuardia as mayor, decided it would cost too much to repair, so down it came!
REMEMBER YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!
Mike H.
King Kong destroyed the Sixth Avenue El on his way to the Empire State Building, NOT the Third Avenue El.
IIRC, the structure King Kong destroyed looked like 3rd Avenue, not the very distinctive 6th Avenue structure.
This is not as bad an error as scenes in current movies supposed to be in New York but with Toronto subway cars.
BTW, I understand King Kong got a lifetime TBTA pass from Bob Moses for his work. Too bad he wasn't around to enjoy it.
POLITICS WAS INVOLVED
The IND was deliberately designed to draw riders from the 6th and 9th Avenue els along with the Fulton St. el in Brooklyn. The IND second system's 2nd Av. line targeted the east side els in Manhattan, but was never built. The takeover of the IRT and BMT by the city included condemnation of the 9th Av. el, the northern portion of the 2nd Av. el, the inner portion of the Fulton el and the 5th Av - Bay Ridge el also in Brooklyn. This was all designed to make the IND the most heavily used part of the system and spur its further development.
Today, the loss of the 3rd Av. el in 1955 is still being felt since the 2nd Av. subway is still mostly onm the drawing board.
The goals of the city in 1930 have never been met, and the IRT, without the two els, still has a monopoly on east side traffic - too much of it!
Also from a political standpoint, Mayor LaGuardia did not care for elevated lines. He was only too happy to see them dismantled.
While on the MTA site, I noticed that while it doesn't go at all times, the B serves all four boroughs with subway service. Always Manhattan and Brooklyn, middays and weekends to Queens and rush hours to the Bronx.
Added to the list of the E and C(I think).
Just an observation.
While your observation is correct in that the B does serve all four boroughs in some capacity, it doesn't traverse all four on the same route the way the C used to. In other words, if a B train starts from Bedford Park and goes to Coney Island, it will bypass Queens altogether. If it's operating between 21st-Queensbridge (or 145th St.) and Coney Island, it never makes it to the Bronx.
E trains never ran to the Bronx. However, back in the days when they continued onto Brooklyn, they would begin and end their route in Queens if they terminated at Lefferts Blvd or the Rockaways.
The "E" train runs from Jamaica Center in Queens to the World Trade Center in lower Manhattan. Brooklyn is not even a part of the equation, so to speak.
Regarding my historical question about the opening of the D train to Yankee Stadium, I should have also asked if the train was known as the D train back in the 1930s.
Phil Mintz
Yes, it was the D right from the beginning.
When the Concourse line opened in 1933, the 6th Ave. line didn't exist. There was a C express which lasted at least until 1940, although I understand it was still used as late as 1948.
The D made its debut with the opening of the 6th Ave. line in 1940.
The original IND letter code was such that both trunk lines in midtown Manhattan and the three northern branches each had a separate designation: single letter for express, double letter for local.
8th Ave: A, C, E
6th Ave: B, D, F
Washington Heights: A, B
Concourse: C, D
Queens: E, F
Until the 6th Ave. line opened, naturally, only the 8th Ave. markings were used.
"Yes, it was the D right from the beginning."
Not in the 1930s. In 1933, when the Concourse line opened it was served only by CC trains, at all times. In 1940 when the 6 AVE opened the D began it's service from Church Avenue (modern F) to 205 Street.
No, the D went to Hudson Terminal (today's WTC) and the F went to Church until the D was extended out on the Culver in 1954.
At some time during the 1940s, the D went to Church Ave. I'm not sure of the dates, or when the 6th Ave. service to Church Ave. was switched to the F. It remained F until service was extended to Coney Island over the old BMT Culver line in Oct., 1954. In Nov., 1967, when the Chrystie St. connection opened, the D train was switched to the Brighton line via the new connection, and the F went back to serving the "Culver" line.
-- Ed Sachs
Here is the final reminder that Friday, June 4th, is the date of SubTalk's Field Trip to the Newark Subway via PATH. At this point, there is no need to tell us you are coming if you haven't alread done so. Just meet us at the PATH World Trade Center station before 6:00 pm or at the Subway entrance at Penn Station Newark by 6:30 pm. See the Upcoming Events section of this site for more details. I look forward to seeing many fellow SubTalkers there.
I will be at WTC! Can't wait to finally meet everybody.
Have a good time everyone... I'll be there in sprit! At least I'm bringing you good weather for the field trip!
You certainly are! I'm glad the heat and humidity are giving us a break- at least for today. It was no fun riding the trains this past week.
See you on board-
Unfortunately, there's a good chance I will probably not be able to make it after all :(
But I'll try.
Sid, I will deffinitely be there ! Have my pass for the #7 in my pocket and several dollar bills for trip from WTC.
Mr t__:^)
Well the M4s are becomming more frequent, and in my opinion reliable. The last several el trips have featured trains running without incident (i.e. door-failure, system failure, or station-overshoot).
Tonight I noticed something I did not ever pick up on before. At 15th Street, I noticed a new sign below the car-stop markers that read
Right
Doors
===>
These are aligned with the driver cab... wouldn't this be something easier to have in cab? These appear to be newer signs, they are still bright yellow, but are in view/reach of people on the platforms. Is this due to OPTO or simply signs finally replaced from a long time ago?
Well on the subject of signs, I have also noticed the display signs vary on the messages (at least the ones facing out) I have seen these variations...
Frankfrd-All | Philadelphia
All: 69th | Blue Line
Market- | Frankford | Line
SEPTA | 69th Street
I thought these were standardized signs, but can the operater add text? Oh well... the A/C is very nice in this heat. Is it time we start demanding the stations get A/C too? =)
The A/C is pleasant in this unusual heat we've been having. But I had a problem. I was on my way to school this morning. When we were about to pull out of 56th Street, the operator said "The train in front of us is having door problems, we'll be moving shortly".
We waited about 15 minutes and through 3 announcements before we moved. But that was the first incident in months. Hopefully by the time the last Budd car is gone, we'll have a reliable fleet to take their place.
Dont hold your breath!!!! This sort of thing happens a few times a day. Thats why they have they protect train of ALMOND JOYS sitting at Spring Garden.
These signs are new with the M-4's. I guess they're reminders to the operator to open the correct doors. I would think that any operator who's been down the line for at least one round trip would know where the doors should open, but...
Took a short trip on a Budd train yesterday afternoon. There are still a few out there (and this was midday!).
I've gotten the Budd cars three days in a row now, but the end car was always #812, so I'm guessing we're fewer then 10 Budd trains now?
I've heard that there are about a dozen Budd trains still around. The latest edition of Cinders says about 112 cars remain on the property in various stages of operability. If all 112 could run, this would result in 18 6-car trains with 4 cars to spare. With over 160 M-4's here and the hot weather we've had, I would bet that 20-25 M-4 trains are being pressed into service in the peaks.
I've seen M-4 #1172 and have still only seen Budd #812(the "Blue Line" that's painted on the back has some sort of white streak, you'll notice).
I had a very unusual experience on the LIRR today. I long ago found out that air conditioning on the LIRR could simply mean holding the end-doors open with ti-wraps (all of the smart conductors carry them). However, today was unique, ever for the LIRR. My train, a 6-car express, had door trouble. The middle pair would not open. After leaving Jamaica Station, the Conductor made the following announcement:
"For those of you in cars 9?29 and 9?30, the fact that the doors in your car did not open in Jamaica should indicate that the doors in your car will probably not open for the rest of the trip. I would suggest that if you want to get off, you walk foward or back one car!"
This announcement was repeated before each station stop. Mind you, this train was a peak train at the height of the PM rush hour. I could imagine what would happen if the TA tried to do this on the E line
I've so far been on LIRR trains that:
Have had no air conditioning.
Have had no HAVAC system running whatsoever 9I like this in the winter - nice and QUIET.
Have had door trouble of various sorts
Entire trains not air conditioned.
Entire trains not air conditioned or lit - the only functional things are the cars were the doors and traction.
Smelly diesel cars (par for the course - the ones with HEP gens under them never vented the exhaust anywhere but below the car).
Flat wheels
Flatter wheels
Speed control not functional.
Speed control not kicking out at 80 - The record for a train I was on was 87 between Bellrose and Jamacia.
Oddly enough, I've never gotten totally stuck, or had an overshoot on the LIRR, but both happened to me on Metro-North. Go figure.
MN crews also know the A/C on the M cars is lousey - I've been on many trains at GCT where only one leaf of one set of doors per car was opened. Amazing the difference it made too. BTW - one engineer told me the new haven car A/Cs work better on 13kv than 600v power. Makes sense.
A 6 car train at the height of the rush hour?Lousy!
< A 6 car train at the height of the rush hour? Lousy! >
On a lot of commuter systems, a 6-car train of 85 foot cars would be gigantic.
Sometimes when going home from the Rangers games at MSG,a train would pull in with 8 cars and 2 cars closed off.They always underestimate how many cars are needed.There should always be 10 car trains operating out of Penn Station.
< Sometimes when going home from the Rangers games at MSG,a train would pull in with 8 cars and 2 cars closed off.They always underestimate how many cars are needed. >
The LIRR has finally come down on train personnel who close off cars just because the trainmen don't want to walk the extra cars or want to reserve "private" cars for RR personnel. The current non-rush standard is (I believe) six cars open if there are more than six in the train--if six or fewer, all cars open. In peak direction during rush hours, all cars open. This is backed up by train order.
Sometimes crew will keep a few cars closed if a big influx is expected at a particular station. I've seen this done of westbound Babylon trains when a crowd is expected to board at Jamaica. Then the extra rear cars are opened. This is all under the conductor's control.
I wonder what MNRR practice is.
< There should always be 10 car trains operating out of Penn Station >
I don't think there is enough equipment for all Penn trains to have 10 cars.
Metro-North doesn't seem to keep cars closed like the LIRR sometimes does. I won't say it never happens, as I've not ridden that many late-night or weekend trains, but it's certainly not as commonplace as on the LIRR.
Perhaps the original post did not make my point clearly enough. I was not referring to a train where 2 cars were kept closed by choice. The train left Jamaica around 5:25 PM with the doors of the first two and the last two cars operating normally. On the midle pair, the doors did not open, presumably due to electrical failure. Customers were riding in these cars. They were simply told that when they wanted to get off, they had to walk foward or back one car. My point was, At what point is a B/O train a B/O train on the LIRR.
< At what point is a B/O train a B/O train on the LIRR. >
Given the facts in your original post, the LIRR did the right thing. LIRR trains don't operate as frequently as subway trains. I would rather have a train with non-working doors in some cars then be put off the train to wait for a later one, which would then have to take the load of two trains.
The fact that the LIRR seems to take such a casual attitude toward maintenance is another issue.
What does B/O stand for anyway?
B/O stands for 'Bad Order' or defective.
In case of LIRR customers it means what it has always stood for with the lack of A/C.
"the LIRR did the right thing."
Perhaps they did. Like everyone else on the train, I wanted to get home. However, once the conductor presses the open button, various relays in each car pull it or drop out. Since the nature of the failure (a sticking relay?) was not known, the possibility of the doors 'popping open' en route exists. This possibility had always lead to the NYCT removing trains from service - electing to err on the side of safety.
< Since the nature of the failure (a sticking relay?) was not known, the possibility of the doors 'popping open' en route exists. This possibility had always lead to the NYCT removing trains from service - electing to err on the side of safety. >
Once a door is determined defective, the LIRR crew cuts it out. It's alot easier to pull a train "for safety" when you're running a 4 or 6 minute headway.
I've waited as much as 20 minutes on Babylon platform when a regularly scheduled express train had to be replaced with another from Babylon Yard because of a problem. But at least there I have the option of taking the local.
"Cutting Out" a door refers to disabling a single door on a car due to its failure to close or lock properly. As Steve describes the problem,two entire cars in the middle of a 6 car consist failed to open. The fact that the doors on the cars adjacent to these opened would tend to rule out a trainline problem. The problem,IMHO would then lie in the door control systems of these two cars;they're either not receiving or not responding to the "door open" command. A stuck relay might very well be the cause. The relay might later become "unstuck" due to vibration causing the entire car(s) to open with the train in motion.Not a happy thought. One way around this might be to disable the system entirely on the cars in question (is there a D8 or "Door Control" circuit breaker?)
Allowing passengers to remain in such cars would be a matter of LIRR policy. The lawsuit potential is enormous,what with passengers crossing between cars and no means of opening the doors on those cars in the event of an emergency. I don't mean to bring up the lawyer thing again,but I think they'd smell blood in such a case.
But the way Steve explained it, the crew did not cut the doors out. They left them as is. Maybe at one station the doors would decide to open, next station the doors may not open. The door opening relays ae energized when the door opening buttons are pushed. If the doors fail to open at a station, the door opening relays are still energized while the train is in motion between stations. Hence the possibility, as slight as it is, of a door or doors opening enroute. This is unsafe operation. It is not done this way at the TA. If one car of a NYC subway car fails to open, Control Center will tell the crew to isolate the car (cut all doors out) or take the whole train out of service. Even though LIRR frequency is much longer than in the subway, customer safety must never be compromised.
What is a HEP generator?
Why are the trains run ideling for such a long time?
Why are the trains double ended? The ACMU don't have controls I assume.
HEP stands for 'Head End Power' This is a generator that provides trainline electricity for lights, signs, doors, HVAC, etc. It replaced (on long-distance trains) steam-generated heat and A/C, which was left over from the steam days, when it was logical. Early diesels built for passenger service had steam boilers installed. Amtrak finished rebuilding coaches to use HEP in the early 80s. (Cars known as the 'Heritage Fleet')
I can't say why they idle. As for them being double-ended, the GP38 is (usually) the propulsion, and the FA is unpowered. It is called a 'Power Pack' because it contains only controls (for push-pull service) and an HEP generator (which the GP38s lack) Until recently, the LIRR had no diesel coaches with operating positions. Some of the new bi-levels have control cabs, and diesel trains have the locomotive facing east (with new cars). Dual-mode trains (Direct to Penn Station from Diesel Territory) run with a loco on each end, due to restrictions placed on them by Amtrak.
-Hank
Here in Chicago, the trains generally don't idle at the downtown terminals (termini?), but are hooked up to station electrical power. Then the engines are turned on a few minutes before departure. If you board the train at least fifteen minutes before departure, you know that the change-over has occurred because the ventilators and lights, except for emergency lighting, go out for a couple of seconds and then suddenly (and with a loud WOOSH!) come back on again.
Even so, the locomotives are always on the end of the train farthest away from the station building, so that as little exhaust as possible goes into the building. Thus, Metra trains always operate with the locomotive faced away from downtown Chicago, loco at the rear on inbound trains and on the head-end on outbound runs.
What's the deal with the lights in the Brighton and Montague subway tunnels? They used to have really cool, bright white lights. Now, they have reverted to yellow-orange lights again. Why are they doing this? Are they supposed to be more energy-efficient, or something?
- Lyle Goldman
Well I think the lighting in the 7 train tunnels (Steinway tunnels) is pretty shabby, just looks like regular white light bulbs.
I was on the N the other day, and their tunnels to Queens had blue and yellow lights, nice colors.
Not to mention the 7 station at GCT has got quite a few narrow spots on the platform.
In all the places where Mercury bulbs (the "cool white" had been installed, they are being replaced with compact flourescents. (same color as old incandescents, but brighter and much less wattage. Probably longer lasting as well. I noticed this beginning on Nassau St before the bridge closed. In a couple of weeks the whole line was done, including the old trolley terminal area. Lexington above 33rd is now mostly done. Apparently they can operate on the same ballast as the mercury's so all they had to do is change the bulb. I guess that's why they were replacing all those new mercury bulbs while so many other areas still have ther old incandescents.
I remember years ago when a bunch of TA officials were doing a presentation at the NY Div. ERA meeting, they mentioned that compact flourescent was what they wanted to go with. Propbably easier on the eyes, more efficient, etc.
Compact Flourescents last 10,000 hours (vs. 700 for incandescents) and produce the same light as incandescents on about 25% of the wattage.
Based on my observations of these de"light"ful lights, they are brighter than the incandescent bulbs AND the mercury-vapors. So bright they have to shade them.
Wayne
> Compact Flourescents last 10,000 hours (vs. 700 for incandescents) and produce the same light as incandescents on
> about 25% of the wattage.
And how are the Compact Fluorescents in relation to the white Mercury Vapor lights?
- Lyle Goldman
I noticed one day while riding a D train that the old tunnel leading from the north end of the Manhattan Bridge tracks to the Canal St. Station on the Broadway line was recently equipped with these new lights, even though there is no track, or trains going through that area anymore. Hmmm.....
I have two questions regarding the 7 train. I usually take the express, but at Queensboro the train slows quite a bit, and after Vernon it goes quite slow through the tunnel, it almost feels like they are coasting the trains into Manhattan.
Also what are, in your opinion, bad underground subway stations by design? I think the 7 train station at GCT having only one entrance, and many narrow sections to the platform can be quite inadequate when it's crowded.
Sometimes I'd rather get the N at Times Square and then transfer at Queensboro to avoid the hot, crowded 7 station at GCT but there will be fewer seats at Queensboro.
Safety is a factor in train speed through the tunnels. Usually there is a series of grade timers on the downhill to permit a quick stop near the bottom if an obstruction appears. Once the bottom is reached there is no restriction going uphill other than the balancing speed of the train, on which the grade has a significant impact. A good operator can play chicken with the last grade timer and get a good running start on the upgrade - of course he has got to be good or he gets tripped!
I plan on visiting Belmont Park tomorrow - driving to New Haven and then taking the MNCR, #7 and LIRR. If I go I will give an opinion on the #7 performance.
Poor subway station design .... I always thought Grand Street (B/D/Q) was poorly designed (and it's a more recent design) because the train is travelling downgrade entering the station and upgrade leaving the station, so it takes extra energy to stop and start the train. Stations like 7th Ave (Brooklyn D/Q) are designed "better" because the train is on an upgrade approaching the station and a downgrade leaving the station, thereby saving energy.
I understand that Grand Street is designed the way it is most likely because of its proximity to the Manhattan Bridge approach.
Alother station that often gets press because of its poor design is 72nd St on the West Side IRT (1/2/3/9) because of its very narrow platforms and even narrower staircases off the platform. You don't want a crowd forming there!
--Mark
I Heard That NYCTA And The PA Of NY/NJ Have Resurfaced To Extend "N" Astoria N And West To LGA Airport. In my opion this would be the best option to LGA From Downtown Brooklyn, Lower And Midtown Manhattan Then
Taking A MTA Bus North From Lower Manhattan To 125 St In Harlem Then Transfering To Route M60 East To LGA. It IS Safer To Travel By A Single Train To LGA The Transfer In Harlem Espelly At Night After Dark.
There were a couple of public hearings on various plans recently. One in Queens & the other in Manhattan. Search this site by key word to see more detail.
Mr t__:^)
As part of the JFK Airtrain approval, Pataki is giving $100 Million to design the LGA link.
So you heard $100 million just for a study and design too? I was hoping I was having a nightmare when I heard that. I just hope whatever consultant gets that contract pays a fair amount back into Pataki's campaign chest.
Neither way is safer than the other at night, because in this city regardless of statistics you have to be careful any where you go! The N train is a long run and if you are trying to say that riding this one train compared to riding a bus that travels through Harlem is safer, then you should think again. Crime happens anywhere at anytime! I ride the M60 at night and there are alot of people who use this line to get to work or to catch a flight our of LGA. In Manhattan catching the N train is not the best option for alot of people who live on the extreme West side where they have the 6th and 8th ave IND lines and the 7th Ave/Bway IRT systems and can take these lines to 110th Street or 116th Street or 125th Street and catch this bus to Airport. Once this plan goes through, if it goes through, I hope it attracts riders due to convienece and not due to ignorance.
Peace
DaShawn
Ill drink to that!!!!!!!!!! That like saying Ill go take the ferry to Staten Island,instead of taking the bus from Bay Ridge because I might feel uncomfortable in the neighborhood. Get real!!!!!!!
I just wanted to relate an experience I recently had on the M60 going from Columbia to Astoria, where I live. It was a Sunday night I believe, and I saw the M60 coming down the street so I figured I would take that rather than the tortuously long subway ride back to Astoria. Was I wrong!! The M60 went through Harlem at an extremely slow pace (traffic jams along the route) and I don't think we had even left Manahattan for half an hour. Then we hit the Triborough Bridge and that was jammed up like you wouldn't believe, and we creeped across that for about 45 minutes. I would guess it took almost 45 minutes longer to get home with that damn M60 than it would have taken to get home via the subway, and I'll never take the M60 from Manhattan again. I think that they are wasting resources by running that route at all, and they should instead just concentrate on running the M60 between the Astoria Blvd stop of the N line and LGA. Then subway riders could expect to be shuttled to the airport within a few minutes of having arrived at that station, and more people would consider taking the subway to the airport. As it is now, it is a big silly waiting game for the M60, which only comes every 15 or 20 minutes. Who the hell has the time for so much waiting around? The fact that the airport is so poorly served by public transit guarantees that the terminals will be jammed with taxis and car services. It's an embarrassment to the City of New York that there is no train service to airport, but perhaps even more of an embarrassment that the bus service is so poor. My rant for the day!!
Due to illness, I won't be goping on today's (Ah-CHOO!) field trip.
Have fun! Looking forward to the report ....
--Mark
Anyone see yesterday's (Thursday 6/3) special section in the NY Daily News about the upcoming Mets - Yankees series? Take a look at the top center of the pages - you'll see an R-42 labeled as a D train! Talk about old file photos! The R-42 hasn't been assigned to the D train in years!! You'd think that there would be alternating pictures of the 4 and the 7 to represent both teams, but it looks like the News is partial to the Yankees in this series :)
--Mark
Did anyone catch the zoom shot of R-62 #1330 heading up a southbound 4 train at about the eighth inning of last night's game? It took several seconds before the doors opened.
At least the Mets won for once.
I did. You tinhk the Train Conductor was distracted by the crowd of the best best Sports fans in the country? GO METS!
Hey Stillwell-----How old are you and do you live in New York? I'm going to be in New York in early to mid August and plan on taking in some games at Shea before heading to Cooperstown. If it's convenient for you maybe we can take in a game or two and discuss both baseball and the subway system. Maybe there are Mets fans out there who would like to join us and we could make it a caravan. I plan on staying at the Pan-American Inn on Queens Blvd. Let me know Stillwell and anyone else out there. Have a good one.
Dissappointed that we could only take one of 3...
I bought a pin that has what look like R17s, signed as a 4 and 7 trains, with the signs on the blind side of the front. The 4 has a blue stripe, the 7 an orange stripe. I have to say, considering all the mets paraphenalia I was wearing at Yankee Stadium, the worst I got were some 'Mets Suck' screams. Friday night was nice, considering my usual experience at Yankee Stadium (unfortuneately, my girlfreind is a Yankee fan, so we go there occansionally) includes seeing fights and beer throwing in the stands. Friday night was nice, I didn't see any obvious signs of fighting, and no one threw beer at me (it helped that I was in row W of the upper tier) Sunday night, however, was typical. I've never seen so much fighting, and generally, it was all Yankee fans fighting with each other. One fight started in my section because someone laughed when a guy fell on the stairs! Big plus for Mets fans, that Yankee fans lost in the 70's- a view of the game from the paid area of a subway station!
-Hank
Hank: Do they sell those pins at Shea or only at Yankee Stadium? I will definately get one when I go to NY this August. Blue and Orange are my two favorite colors. I managed a Stan Musial-Semi pro baseball team for 12 years and we were called the San Gabriel Valley Mets. Naturally our colors were Orange & Blue. At least Sunday turned well for us as I was cheering up a sotrm in front of my tv set.
It seemed to me that most of the poeple leaving were Yankee fans. Of course, you can't see the playing field from the station platform anymore.
Hey, the Mets have won two straight! Break up the Mets!
Thursdays' Newsday has a couple articles on page 35 by Dan Janison and Victor Manuel Ramos about "... key City Council approval yesterday, effectively clearing the way for construction to begin this summer ... (of the link to Jamaica)"
Also included was "... separate mezzanine level ..." boy that will be convient :-(
And "... moving walkway for passengers from other train systems." accross the tracks ???
I recommend a "sky hook" system, you'ld just grab on and be wisked to that separate mezzanine.
Well at least it's moving forward & maybe it can be fixed after it's completed.
Copyright disclaimer: Have identified the publication & article authors and quoted less than 400 words.
Mr t__:^)
Yesterday evening, there was an unexpected power outage on the 2 and 5 at Jackson Av Station. I found myself stranded trying to get home from work at Times Sq. The 2s and 3s were affected, turning at 42 or 96th Streets. Going over to GCT on the S, 5 service wasn't any better. Those trains were going to terminate at 125 St, but after some confusion, the train headed to 149th and Grand Concourse. The conductor on the 5 didn't even know where his train was going, holding up our train. It didn't even terminate at GC! It went through to Dyre and I got off the damn thing. I walked home the rest of the way. At GC, the announcements said there was limited service to E180 and Dyre, but no 2 service to 241 St. You had to wait at E180 St to get a 2 to 241 St.
I gotta wonder what could have happened? TA personnel were stationed at Jackson Av for a while, I guess to investigate the cause of the incident. Hey, Pelham Bay Dave, any thoughts???
-Constantine
It was just signal problems on the southbound side of Jackson Avenue. All 2 and 5 (southbound) were terminating at East 180 Street. I was at East 180 Street when it all began, but Northbound service was fine at that time.
They had one here in Bklyn a couple of days ago... The whole J and L services were out. Anybody know anymore about this?
I don't no anything about it. It may have been after my tour.
This is a half-serious suggestion, but one that I would hope wouldn't be rejected out of hand.
Instead of a 2nd Avenue Subway, build a Third Avenue Line at least partly as an elevated (or aerial, or skyway, or other not-so-negative-as-elevated name).
You could hold contests for architectural excellence of both structure and stations. Standard subway cars would not necessarily have to be used. Perhaps light rail-type equipment of attractive European-style design could be purchased. The equipment should be profile and roadbed compatible with standard equipment so that it could also operate on current lines.
The biggest physical problem I foresee would be noise, but a lot more is known about transportation acoustics than when the original els were built. The biggest overall problem would be public opposition, but if John Lindsay could try to sell the massive Lower Manhattan Expressway as a wonderful goody called "Lomex," I'm sure something could be done to make this concept attractive.
Why do this? Much cheaper than a subway, more practical (because of grade crossings) than light rail. If the line enabled a cutback in buses on 3rd Avenue, or on 1st and 2nd, the pollution and traffic advantages might be significant. Wider sidewalks and trees might become much more practical. My fear is that, as things stand now, a 2nd Avenue SUBWAY may never be built, and if it is, it will soak up NYCTA capital funds for years, and for what? A two-track line relatively remote from midtown.
Also consider that an east side subway is not the be-all and end-all of New York's transit needs. We desperately need a structurally sound connection to Manhattan subways for the entire BMT Southern Division. We need a passenger/freight rail tunnel to Staten Island.
Just a comment before you folks starting eating this idea for lunch--I consider the above-ground idea and the 3rd Avenue idea to be two separate issues--but I think 3rd Avenue would be better.
There is a company called Futrex that proposes to offer a monorail system on a lease basis. The system can be dismantled and reused somewhere else if the lease is not renewed or converted to a purchase. It might be possible to offer a deal to East Siders: you can have a monorail up and running in two years, to be leased for ten years or so, until a subway is built. Then the monorail would be dismantled. However, how can you guarantee that the subway will actually materialize? I suspect a lot of residents would see this problem immediately, and condemn the monorail as a Trojan Horse. The temporary solution could become permanent. One could hope by that time residents would be so used to the system that they wouldn't mind keeping it. However, I don't think the MTA has enough credibility to have this offer accepted in the first place.
An El is an El is an El.
< An El is an El is an El. >
No. In Brooklyn and Chicago, it's an "L".
A song frequently heard on Third Avenue "NoEl,NoEl."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Also heard on Myrtle.
Is there no 14th Street in Chicago?
I don't know about Chicago, but I do know that there is no 14th Street in Philadelphia. Broad Street, with the ever so famous Broad Street Subway, is Philadelphia's "14th Street."
Check my webpage and more to come.
I just make a new webpage and check this page
Cool----but what is the 36st yard??????
36st Yard is in Brooklyn near 5th Ave next to Greenwood cemetery.
Sometimes, I imagine how I would announce stations if I were a NYC subway conductor. Here is how I would do it.
First, as we approach the station, I would yell out the name of the station and all the subway services to which one can transfer there. Then, after we stop and I open the doors, I would say the name of the train line, where the train is going, any important service announcements, and the name of the next stop. Then, I would say "All aboard! Stand clear of the closing doors." (I might insert a "please").
For example, if I were a conductor on a Manhattan-bound A train and we were approaching the High St./Brooklyn Bridge station in Brooklyn, I would say, "High Street, Brooklyn Bridge! You may transfer here for the C train." Then, when we are at the station, I would say, "'A' Express to Manhattan! This is the last stop in Brooklyn. Next stop,
Broadway/Nassau Street in Manhattan. All aboard! Stand clear of the closing doors!"
By the way, how come conductors don't say "All aboard!" any more? Many of them say "Step in," but I never hear "All aboard!" which says the same thing but a whole lot better. I think conductors should say "All aboard!"
- Lyle Goldman
Sometimes I imagine how I would write up a conductor for making improper announcements. If I were a Train service Stupidvisor, I would do it like this....
First I would demand your name and pass number, then throw you out of the cab and send you downtown to labor relations. They will be more than happy to furnish you with a no expenses paid vacation to your home for the next ten days.
Harry
Conductors are not allowed to make PA announcements while the train is entering a station.
We try to say please, but never "All aboard." What we say is strictly outlined in the Blue Book. A publication issued to all conductors outlining what can be said. A script if you will. That's not to say I haven't been known to crack wise occasionally.
Erik
> Sometimes I imagine how I would write up a conductor for making improper announcements. If I were a Train service
> Stupidvisor, I would do it like this....
> First I would demand your name and pass number, then throw you out of the cab and send you downtown to labor
> relations. They will be more than happy to furnish you with a no expenses paid vacation to your home for the next ten
> days.
> Harry
Harry, what is so improper about what I said? And if you were in charge, would you REALLY be such a Fascist about it? I am aware that I do not know the rules of being a conductor, but you don't have to ridicule me.
> Conductors are not allowed to make PA announcements while the train is entering a station.
> We try to say please, but never "All aboard." What we say is strictly outlined in the Blue Book. A publication issued to
> all conductors outlining what can be said. A script if you will. That's not to say I haven't been known to crack wise
> occasionally.
> Erik
If conductors have a "script," then why do they all say different things? Several years ago, I had a conductor on a morning F train to Manhattan that did not make any announcements at all! A couple of times he would yell at people who were holding the doors, so I knew the P.A. system worked. However, he seemed to continue on that way for weeks. He should have gotten into trouble (and I should have reported him). Also, if you can "crack wise," and that old conductor on the #1 line could make all sorts of interesting announcements, why can't a conductor say "All aboard!"? I would like to hear more about that publication you refer to.
By the way, if I can't make announcements while the train is entering the station, then I would make those announcements before the train entered the station, or whenever most conductors announce the station.
- Lyle Goldman
A recent bulletin prohibits us from making any announcements at all when the train is moving. Obstesibly this is to keep the conductor's attention focused on the train and what side the doors are on, etc. But that's another thread.
Harold's not being totaly outrageous with what he said either. TA is extremely intolerant. I can say a few comments over the PA. A lot of us do. But then again those of us that do know where and when. AM rush in IND Queens is NOT the place to do so. I think you can figure out the rest.
For some reason you do get away with more in the PM's. I used to be fond of saying this at WTC in the evenings. People after a hard day at work can laugh for some reason, whereas in the morning they're grumpy.
"Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen. This is your Captain speaking. Welcome aboard. If you would please return your seats backs and tray tables to their upright positions and fasten your seatbelts, we're ready for takeoff."
That would always get a good laugh. You could hear all up and down the platform. I'd follow up with:
"Our schduled destination today is the lovely Island of Jamaica. Unfortunately this one is only in Queens. Our cruising altitude will be 40 feet......underground. scheduled arrival at****"
This too would elicit quite a chuckle.
I gave it up one day when arriving at Parsons. The dispatcher told me I had a phone call. Seems a Superintendent had riden some of the way and wasn't impressed. Told me that it was very funny, but that next time I'd find myself not laughing.
The blue book is a small booklet with everything we are supposed to say in almost every situation.
If you like come on my train one day and I'll give you a copy.
Erik
That's great Erik!
Last year there was a severe thunderstorm over Valley Stream, moving due east. The anchorman on WCBS asked me where it was headed, and I said, "Next stop, Rockville Center. Followed by Baldwin, Freeport, Merrick, Bellmore, Wantaugh, Seaford, Massapequa, Massapequa Park, Amityville, Copaigue, Lindenhurst, and Babylon. Change at Babylon for Bay Shore, Islip..." you get the idea!
Then there was the time I was riding the Paris Metro, and a stranger asked me (in English) how to get to the Eifel Tower. Recognizing the thick Lawn Guyland accent, I mentioned the route, then said... "Change at Jamaica!"
> A recent bulletin prohibits us from making any announcements at all when the train is moving. Obstesibly this is to keep
> the conductor's attention focused on the train and what side the doors are on, etc. But that's another thread.
> Harold's not being totaly outrageous with what he said either. TA is extremely intolerant. . . .
You mean you are not allowed to make ANY announcements while the train is moving any more? When are they supposed to announce the stations?
From what you say, it seems like the TA does not care much about the best interests of the passengers. They can't say anything while the train is moving, and they can only say very little while the train is at a stop. What if there is some very important information that must be announced to the passengers? Why must a good conductor be punished for helping people? The TA has gotten totally out of line!
What did we come to America and fight all those wars for, anyway!
- Lyle Goldman
If there IS important information to be given to the public they make the anouncements as long as his/her cab is not moving within the boundaries of the station platform. Entering, he/she must be observing the conductor's board and leaving he/she must be observing for the possible dragging equippment/customers. Pure and simple. C/Rs can make all the important PA announcements when the train is stopped at the proper position in the station or while the train is between stations, moving or not.
The most recent of bulletins concerning announcements states that we are allowed to make the routine cycle of announcements only stopped in the station with the doors open.
Delay announcements are ussually made when the train is stopped between stations.
I'm glad to see you have finnaly figured out the true nature of the TA: Dollars before sense. The public be damned.
It seeme it wasn't so long ago that conductors would announce the next station once the train was moving along. Back in the good old days when the N was a true express, I remember hearing a very simple, straightforward announcement after leaving Union Square: "34th St., next."
I remember the annoucements as of late last year " This is a Manhattan Bound 4 train, 125th street next, Chagne there for the 6 train. Watch the closing doors"
My apologies Lyle. If you noticed on the posting I was at Erics house. No knowledge and Eric, give me a G2! My drive on that post is the Supervisor's perogative, not mine and I hope you understand the TA bottom line that that conductor, Harry Nugent, the one on the 1 line would not be allowed in this day to carry on with "improper announcements" , as Eric indicated.
I hate to bust your bubble, but.......the TA has militaristic procedeures! You are not allowed to "do your own thing." There is a "blue book" which tells you what to say and when. Violators, especially new probies, will be harassed to death by supervision, if you are lucky!
If the TA is so militaristic, then why do so many conductors get away with doing their own things? I would like to hear more about this "blue book."
- Lyle
The blue book is the announcement book one gets when he/she is hired as a conductor. It is your Bible of announcement procedeures. I know full well some conductors do their own thing. But the new people (under your name on the payroll the computer automatically prints "probationary" for one year), are ridden by the Train Service Supervisors (TSS) much more often than the non-probies. It is the job of the TSS to check the payroll roster and note which jobs are covered by probies (both train operator & conductor) and try to ride with them for at least a few stops daily especially if he/she is new to the line.
people never pay attention to pa announcements now do you think they'll listen to "ALL ABOARD"? please....most subway riders are always in a FOG or are just plain IGnorant
Hi---My friend, Amtrak Andy is coming to NY on Sun and I was hoping if someone can tell me the best way for him to get into the city from Newark Int'l? Is PATH a good way? If so----where is the PATH station and how much? Is there even a PATH station at Newark Int'l? Thanks!
they can take the airlink bus to penn station newark and then get the path. there also buses into nyc.
Olympia Trails has 2 buses from EWR, one to the Port Authority, the other to the World Trade Center. Both cost $10 per person and is a huge ripoff. NJT used to operate the PABT route (#300) for $7, but that went kaput a few years back.
NJT also operates the #107 through the airport (from South Orange and Irvington) to the PABT, but no passengers are carried between the airport and New York -- they want you to pay the $10 fare instead of what would probably be $3.95 for the 107 bus.
But you can still get from the airport to the city for 2 dollars by taking the #62 bus ($1 vs. $4 for the Airlink) to Penn Station, then the PATH for another dollar.
If time is an issue, take the Olympia bus, as the 62/PATH route will take twice as long.
Vartan---thanks man----but were would my friend be able to catch the #62 bus from Newark Int'l?
Faxman---thanks for your tip also.
The #62 bus stops at every terminal -- alights in front of the terminals and picks up at the bus lanes located at each terminal. When your friend gets off the plane, have him follow the signs to Ground Transportation/Buses. Each bus lane has a sign indicating the bus that stops there (look for NJ Transit #62, or something along those lines).
I've heard you can't get on the #62 with a suitcase, at least not a big one.
The #62 is a regular public bus, so there are no special luggage racks or accomidations. As long as you have nothing more than a backpack and/or carry-on bag, you should be okay.
Otherwise, take the Airlink, the buses reserved for that line have racks in the back for large suitcases.
Get to Newark Penn Station----take a PATH train there into city. PATH costs $1.00!!!!!
WOW!!! Great to meet all the SubTalkers who showed up for the PCC field trip yesterday! As someone said,waiting on the WTC platform was almost going on a weird kind of blind date-you didnt know what people looked liked,you were afraid nobody would show and when they did show it was like "Oh...okay..."
My connections home worked out almost to the second-although it was maddening to get a SLOW R44 on the E going up 8th ave. But it beat out a theory I have- If theres no A in Chambers when you pull in, you're much better off to keep on the E-you're only making 2 more stops!
as it was a C pulled in to Chambers the same time as us, so I KNEW that there werent gonna be no A for a long long time....as the Board of Transportation had planned it back in 1924.
Other highlights of yesterday were:
1. The run on a real fast Slant40 from W4th to BB...Maybe Waynes right..mmmm
2 Coming back from Coney,changing at Atlantic Ave and finding an EMPTY
R33 (9600 series) on the 4 waiting to card out (around 320 pm the clock at Nevins said 1523 when we left there..) An incredibly fast run up to 125th...(BTW..one of my fave little spots on the whole system is that spot right past Brooklyn Bridge where theres no signals,no lights of any kind for a good 5-800 feet GREAT!! Makes you wonder what it was like with the old equiment with no sealed beams...)
3 And of course the field trip itself....although that guy who rushed for the front seat in ther PAth at WTC prob wished he didnt!!
So folks..if couldnt make this one...ya gotta make the next one!(did I hear something about SIRT???)
This far-flung Son of Newark is hungry for details of the ride. Can anyone oblige?
Lou and others...great to meet you all! Wonderful way to spend a pleasant June night. Nice time!!
To oblige John Crowley - this trip was everything a rail fan could like. Starting with PATH, always a unique system, rich in history. The sprint from Journal Square to Newark is one of my favorites - the fast ride across the Meadows, next to the Amtrak NE Corridor and the NJ Transit Morristown line - then the always imposing Dock Bridge over the Passaic River to Newark Penn Station. Then the priceless PCCs on the #7 City Subway - still great looking after 53 years. We rode three separate cars - from Penn to Orange St. (good photo op); then to Franklin Ave. (another good photo op) - then back to Penn. Return trip to NY was highlighted with a good photo stop at Harrison, where you can see just about everything - PATH, NJT, Amtrak.
If we do this again, it's a good idea to spend some time looking around Newark Penn Station. It's a classic Art Deco structure that was recently fixed up and looks good. Maybe a good idea to combine with a trip to Hoboken Station, including a PATH ride between them.
Hope to see all of you on a future trip! Anyone know where the pictures will be posted?
Thanks to all who attended the trip. It was a pleasant way to spend a few hours after work on a Friday. The weather was perfect. Even though the sun was not optimum for picture taking at Orange St., Franklin Ave. or Harrison/PATH, I'm sure Dave and others took some good shots that will hopefully find their way onto this site. We'll have to do some more after-work field trips while the sun stays out so late this time of year.
I've put up the Field Trip web page with three photos sent to me by Alan Braunstein (the magic of digital cameras). I'll add more photos next week when I get my slides back.
The page is at: Newark City Subway Field Trip
Enjoy!
-Dave
I have three to send to you; I took your advice and scanned as BMP then touched up then converted BMP to JPG at the end.
See if this works out; if so I will use this method in the future.
Wayne
Those are great pictures. Too bad (for me!) that I had to miss the trip.
Dave, I hope you will identify all the participants, as you did for the Willy-B trip pictures.
Three new pix from Wayne W. and the annotated group photo has been uploaded. Again, I suck at names to faces so if you want to just drop me an email telling me your number I'll correct the caption. (I know I left a couple people out too, sorry about that)
Newark City Subway Field Trip
-Dave
I'm sorry I couldn't make this one. Can't help but notice that it was mostly an entirely different crew. I guess if there are enough field trips, everyone will eventually meet everyone else.
Here are the missing ID's for the group trip picture: #3 is Stu Greenberg (per previous post); #4 is Lou from Middletown, NY; #8 is Howard Fein; and #9 is Andy Sparberg.
I am glad all you guys had fun on the Newark Subway. I rode that line many years ago with my friend Frank from Yonkers about 5 years
ago. It won't be the same without our beloved PCC's.
I'll keep posted on upcoming events, looks like the /ERA/ is coming up soon in Philly. I'll try to make that one and maybe get my "mug"
in the group picture if one is taken!
Chuck Greene
For the record, I'm number 3 in the group photo.
I'd like to thank everyone for the wonderful time I had on this trip. I hope to attend others.
I'm going to dig out my old shots of the PCCs from the 70's. Most are on slides so I'll have to find a way to get them into the computer but a couple were printed so I should be able to scan them.
-Stu
Stu -
Once I get my new Mac set up and connected (Comcast is supposed to show up Friday afternoon to install the cable modem) I'll have an email address that I can use on the board AND a scanner with transparency adapter, so if you want we can then make arrangements to get your slides to my house and scan them in (after I do a few of my own to see how they're going to come out, of course).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe you got #4163, that train took me from West 4th to Kings Highway in 25 minutes FLAT. It didn't even seem too pokey going over the rickety Manhattan Bridge (maybe 22-25 or so). She got another good sprint between 7th Ave & Prospect Park until GT #A3-409 slowed her down a bit. Once she got the express track, she was off to the races.
For those curious as to which PCCs we rode:
PCC #10 from Newark Penn Station to Orange
PCC #15 from Orange to Franklin
PCC #11 from Franklin back to Newark Penn Station.
Other PCCs sighted out on the road were:
#5, #9, #14, #21, #26, with #2 and #4 sighted at the layup track.
They are in amazing shape considering they are 51 years young.
Once again, thanks to all fellow SubTalkers for an enjoyable trip!
Wayne
My special thanks to Sid from NJ who had the trip planned, and guided us through the obstacles (iron madens & which one took cash vs. a ticket or exact fare) but flexible enough if we wanted more photo-ops. As has been said elsewhere in this thread the 12 of us had a marvelous time on this lovely evening. I had a grin on my face the whole trip :-)
My trip started at 4 PM at Main St. where I got a #7 Redbird that took about 30 min. The view of the Manhattan skyline was great from Queens Blvd. in till we made the tunnel. I then caught a R62A #1 at Times Sq and noticed that a young woman was breast feeding her child in the company of a few friends or relatives. After the 15 min trip to WTC I still had plunty of time for a light supper at a kind of Italian fast food place before our trip. On the way back, after the Harrison stop a few of us switched at Grove Street for a trip thru the other tunnel then on to 33rd Street. Three of us parted at Penn to take seperate LIRR trains on our final leg of the journey.
BTW, The Subway-Buff & I are thinking to doing this same trip later this summer as it seems from the posts that there are a number of you who missed this one, but want to do the trip. It will be a weekday other than Friday.
Mr t__:^)
What a great trip that was Friday! It is amazing how great those PCCs
look. After I left the group I jumped on a Jersey Arrow at Newark-Penn and headed to New York. The engineer had the shade up so I was able to look out of the front all the way. We reached a top speed of 79 MPH before we had to slow down at the Secaucus project. Will that ever be finished? When I got to NY-Penn, I realized the
conductor never lifted my ticket, so I got a free ride!
I caught the 8:06 PM Babylon Local, change at Jamaica for Far Rockaway and was home by 9PM.
I think the next trip should be a ride on the SIRT. Anyone up for that?
It was great to meet a few of the folks that until now I have known only through this board, and to see a few other old acquaintances (sp?) again. As a PCC fan of long standing, the Newark ride is even better than Wayne's beloved slants, in my opinion (and yes, Wayne old friend, you're entitled to yours, however wrong I may think it is! :-))
Once I get the new Mac up and running and my slides come back, I'll scan and send them (if they're decent) to Dave for the page.
Anyone up for a vehicular tour to locate the unused tunnel entrances from the surface? I know where the entrance to the Cedar Street line is (behind Kresge's/McCrory's) but not the other ones.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ah, yesh, but I got to enjoy them BOTH in the same day. I wonder what a theoretical race between PCC #15 and #4163 (or #4314 or #4399) might be like :o)
A good time was had by all!
Wayne
Ah, yesh, but I got to enjoy them BOTH in the same day. I wonder what a theoretical race between PCC #15 and #4163 (or #4314 or #4399) might be like :o)
A good time was had by all!
Wayne
I've been off this line for a couple of days and maybe I should have stayed off because the news hasn't been enncouraging from what I have been reading. To Steve, Larry, RedbirdR33 and Paul, the fact that I'm living in California does not mitigate my unhappines of what I've heard from you guys. Are things really that bad with the Sea Beach line in Brooklyn, and why hasn't Giuliani, a native Brooklynite done his part to help out? I'm on a break giving an SAT Test to high school students and doing a slow burn at the same time. It's bad enough that my Mets lost last night to those damn Yankees, but now I have to get caught up with the continued destruction of my favorite slubway train. I don't mean to sound stupid, but isn't there anything or any group that can rectify this? I'm not looking forward to riding the Sea Beach when I come to New York this August if I'm going to be angry at what I see. This is a real bummer. Go Mets!
Well, I rode the "N" (Sea Beach) on my way back from Coney Island to World Trade yesterday and here's what I saw:
Yes, they have re-signalled one of the express tracks. The other one lies fallow.
Some of the stations are in precarious condition - especially 86th Street and Avenue "U". Water seepage is taking its awful toll.
I visited Bay Parkway, 20th Avenue and 18th Avenue. These stations are in so-so condition. There is evidence of recent repainting but there is also evidence of water damage too. The antique station-houses are also in OK shape, but the ones at Bay Parkway and 20th Avenue need some work. There is some replacement tile at 18th Avenue station house, consistent with the original pattern, but more brightly colored. It doesn't blend in too well with the original.
Overall, I'd give it a "C" on average, with some stations getting lower marks (noted above) and others (New Utrecht appears to have gotten a rehab) in better shape. It needs some work.
Wayne
I case I hadn't remembered to post it, here is my 1980-90 census of population data for neighborhoods affected by the Manhattan Bridge disruption (served by the B, D, Q, M, N, R) and the rest of Brooklyn.
Subway ridership to work: BMT southern - 11.3 percent Rest of Brooklyn +17.6 percent.
Employed residents BMT southern + 5.1 percent; Rest of Brooklyn +18.5 percent.
Remember, the loss of half the tracks for the past 18 years has led to longer trips and more crowded trains, but there is still service. Imagine what would happen if the bridge were lost completely for any length of time? BMT riders now take 5 to 10 minutes longer each way, each day than 30 years ago. What if that were 30 minutes longer, or worse, if you had to get out, walk, and get on the A/C or F because they have tunnels?
I totally agree with the fact that having the Manhattan Bridge out of service as it is, has a negative impact on subway service throughout the Brooklyn BMT, especially on the 4th Avenue and Broadway lines, i.e. the "N" and "R". Taking forever and a day to replace 50 yards of trackway is preposterous, yet this is just about all they have left to do on the southbound side. If they don't get their brains in gear and figure out what to do in the long run - whether it's a replacement bridge, replacement trackways adjacent to the bridge or a new tunnel, they HAVE to do SOMETHING.
AND - the stations between 18th Avenue and 86th Street on the "N" DO need some rehabilitative work. There are water leaks everywhere and there are vines and mosses growing along the sides of the cut and over the station sheds.
Wayne
Since the late 50's, when the TA began to severely cut non-rush hour services, I've been wondering when they would look for an excuse to close either the West End or Sea Beach services, agruing that there is a certain amount of redundancy since both lines serve approximately the same area.
If you believe that unthinkable, remember that the TA closed the Myrtle and 3rd Avenue (Bronx) els in the same general era, both without adequate replacement.
The "natural" choice to close would have been the West End.
Why? In TA-think, closing the West End could:
(a) eliminate an elevated line (converting New Utrecht to an upscale yuppy haven, of course)
(b) be replaced by nice, modern buses on New Utrecht Avenue (hey, they did it to the 3rd Avenue el).
Conversely, closing the Sea Beach would have been more difficult because it is a depressed right-of-way, and because routing a replacement bus would be impractical, to say the least. The TA has the guts to degrade service impossibly, but not to eliminate it altogether, at least not right away.
IMHO, the only reason this idea did not get out of the starting gate (I did hear whispers, back then) was because the West End has more patronage and is a generally more popular service.
As to the possible loss of the Manhattan Bridge, mentioned by Larry, this seems to me to be a realistic fear. I think the TA's top prioirty should be a connection to Clark Street and a tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge.
Yes, more so than 2nd Avenue.
(Closing the West End/Sea Beach).
Frankly, the lines do duplicate each other, and service would be better and cheaper if one line were closed. But the problem is the one the previous post identifies. The Sea Beach is the better line. It has its own ROW, is not an elevated, etc. But the West End is in the right place. Closing the West End would strand lots of people beyond a 10-15 minute walk from the subway. So it is not practical to close either in favor of the other.
Among the alternatives considered here in the past were a) closing duplicate stations, but not lines, for a faster ride and lower station maintenance costs, and b) issuing bonds paid back by the savings from having one line instead of two, and building a brand new subway perfectly placed between the 4th Avenue and Culver lines. Then the West End line would be torn down, and the Sea Beach line would be converted to a crosstown busway/trolley. The odds of THIS city pulling something like that off are low.
In any case, the Manhattan Bridge problem remains. You'd still have to get all those people, and all those trains to Manhattan, regardless of which line they run on.
If one of the West End or the Sea Beach line is shut down due to duplication, it seems there are many other candidates in the system for such treatment. It seems the #4 line above 161st St - Yankee Stadium is easily duplicated by the C/D. And the #2/5 in the Bronx is not that far from the #6. In Queens, why not shut down and demolish the #7 because the IND duplicates a decent portion of it. In Brooklyn, the Brighton and Culver lines have at least as much duplication as the West End and Sea Beach. Bottom line: Is there really that much duplication between the West End and Sea Beach?
P.S. Imagine how many bus routes the TA could get rid of if the argument that the West End and Sea Beach are duplicate services prevails!
In the case of the #7, all Queens routes going out east are overcrowded as it is. By closing down the #4, you lose a maintance facility and a BMT/IND physical connection with the IRT .
And by closing the 7, you would lose direct subway access to Shea Stadium.
The truth is, some of those duplicates are duplicates -- while other areas are not served. It's a function of the history as competing systems. To your specifics:
Wouldn't it be better if the Jerome Avenue Line was a subway under University Ave, further from the C/D? Wouldn't it be better if the 2/5 ran up Third Ave, further from the 6? Wouldn't it be better if the BMT Broadway Line went up 2nd Ave?
A little late to do much about it though.
1) There have been various ideas over the years to build a new subway beyond Church Avenue on the Culver line and take advantage of the under-utilized four-track capacity between Church Avenue and Jay Street. However, the MTA seems to be a very cautious organization right now, and it seems to be in a balance - perhaps it could be called inertia - of not wanting to either expand or contract the system much. (NJ Transit, in contrast, is in an expansion mode now, but it is a different kind of agency with very different kinds of services.) The MTA doesn't want to restructure the system even if that is needed. It picked the simplest option for the 63rd Street connection, and it did that only because of earlier commitments, going back to the 1970s, to finish the 63rd Street tunnel. Therefore, I wouldn't look for any major changes to the Sea Beach, West End, or Culver lines in the near-future.
2) The Manhattan Bridge may be an exception, like 63rd Street, that forces the MTA to act. Is there a time frame for finishing work on the north side of the bridge once it starts? I have heard that these repairs are supposed to give another thirty years of service, although I can't judge whether that is just wishful thinking.
Supposing they were to build a new tunnel for BMT trains that would replace the Manhattan Bridge tracks.
Where should the tunnel be built? Should it follow, in general, the course of the current Manhattan Bridge (ie. run it under Flatbush Avenue, and connect it with the now unused express Canal Street station?
If they do that, why not restore the old Myrtle Avenue stop, in order to bring workers directly to MetroTech...
Why not build it farther south so it can serve the City Hall area as well?
The southbound platform at the old Myrtle Ave. station no longer exists. It was torn out to make room for an additional track when the DeKalb interlocking plant and station were rebuilt. Besides, when the DeKalb platforms were extended northward, the station was essentially moved closer to Myrtle Ave., deeming that station as being redundant.
It would be well to remember that when the New York and Sea Beach Railroad opened in 1879 there really was no direct rail connection from Manhattan to Coney Island. One could take a steamboat from various Manhattan locations to the pier at 61 St and 1 Avenue and there board the NY & SB for the trip to Coney Island.
When the Sea Beach Line was rebuilt under the Dual Contracts this point to point philosophy was continued. Although the Sea Beach had two tracks for express service they were only intended for high speed service to/from Coney. There was no provision for intermediate express stops and the open cut would have made the construction of these difficult. This was in sharp contrast to the Brighton,West End and Culver Line which were all rebuilt with provision for intermediate express service.
Looking at old films it seems that during the season Coney Island drew crowds that would have done Disney proud but the rest of the time the express tracks sat unused.
As much as I hate to say it the express tracks were redundant and underused especially as a four track Sea Beach main had only a two track connection into the Fourth Av Subway.
The NX would have had more of a chance if it had run local between Coney and Kings Highway and then express although the use of an "Absolute Block" between Kings Highway and 8 Avenue would still have limited service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for all the responses concerning the precariouss position of the Sea Beach line. It doesn't make me feel any better but at least it gets me up to date. You might wonder why I have this fixation on that particular train. It is because I always insisted that we ride to Grandpa and grandma's houses (both of them) on the Sea Beach, although we could have taken the West End. That line I thought was dull because it never went under any underpasses, which I called little tunnels. Nor did it have a number back in the late 1940's and early 1950's, while the Sea Beach carried #4, which was my favorite number when I was a kid. As you can tell there is still a lot of kid in me and I only say this because getting to know you guys online convinces me there are a lot of grown up kids out there.
Here, here. Subways have brought the kid out in me ever since my first experience in 1965. The number marking for the West End was 3; if you never saw it, it meant the Triplexes never ran there back in those days. (They did end their careers on the West End in 1964-65.)
It sounds as if you felt the same way I did when it came to train markings; I always liked to see a marking of some sort on the front end of a train. That's why I didn't particularly care for the BMT standards when they were still running on the Canarsie. The Broadway line was another story. Every train was marked on that line. I still remember peering down the express track at Union Square while waiting for an N train to arrive; since the express tracks are fairly straight to the south of that station, you could see the train from quite a distance away. Then you'd see the headlights, then the signs would come into view, and pretty soon a train of R-32s would glide into the station.
When I used to come into the city on Saturdays, I always insisted on taking an A train from 42nd St. to 14th St., and not an E. E trains stopped at 23rd St. even though the R-1/9s were marked, "E/8th Ave. Express". I felt betrayed. Besides, I became hooked on expresses pretty quickly, and I liked the paint scheme on the R-10s.
I was on these 2 cars the other day and these cars make a loud clacking noise that shakes the car before it actually moves. Wonder why these 2 cars are like this? BTW: This happened on the #7 train.
MCIMAN2000
hey, I was just wonderering if anyone knows any sites about the Baltimore and Annapoils Railroad
Doug
Not for the Baltimore & Annapolis per se. Pix may be available on many of the rail photo web sites.
I haven't run into a B&A website, but for a book try _Every Hour on the Hour: A Chronicle of the Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis Electric Railway_, written by John E. Merriken and published as Central Electric Railfans' Association Bulletin 130 in 1993. The emphasis is on the Washington-Baltimore service, but the B&A is also covered.
Your local public library should be able to round up a copy on interlibrary loan (or may even have it, if you're in the DC-Maryland area).
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Not totally correct. Col. Merriken's opus maximus was published by Leroy O. King and printed by Taylor Publishing of Dallas. If CERA also published it, it was by arrangement with both gentlemen, who owned the copyright.
Today marks another railfan trip for me. I traveled on the N/R lines through Manhattan. I went to 95 Street. I went through Manhattan to Roosevelt Av. I even took a R42 with one car of R40M in the mix.... Those R46 fooled me today in the 60St tunnel. I have nothing but respect for these cars now. I observed the 63St connection as we passed by 36 and heading into QP. I also observed the narrow passageway mentioned on Sub Talk a few weeks back.It looks like the 63 connection will be right on time. Questions:
1. As we entered 59St and you see light briefly on the R, I noticed 2 trackways running parallel, could anybody informed about this?
2. Same thing at 57-Carnegie Hall? Just before you enter the staiion, these tracks merge from the right?(Not the express tracks)
3. When was Canal St redone? I hope they do the same downstairs?
4. What are they going to do with 86St station? Are they going to leave the walls as it is now or will tiles be erected?
5. Still cannot find the Roosevelt Ave second Station?
I might be going to Coney Island tonight. I know Im taking the D going, but dont know about coming back. Railfan trip #4 possibly tomrrow?
Some feedback for you:
(2) The two stub trackways you see leading off into the gloom were supposed to go to the upper west side, running under Central Park parallel to CPW (east of it) and on up to Morningside Hgts. but it never got anywhere.
(3) They have a new mural behind plywood at the base of the ramp leading from the "N"/"R" to the closed Canal-Broadway station.
They have a serious water leak down there, complete with stalactites AND stalagmites. If you look at the closed platform, survey marks are on the wall indicating the placement for the new tile. From the look of these marks, the tile will be the same as or similar to the tile at the "N"/"R" station, complete with ideographs, good luck symbols etc.
4. 86th-4th Avenue lost its tile a long time ago, perhaps as long as 30 years ago or more. I know it wasn't there in 1968, which was the last time I was there. The paint on the wall is hideous. My guess as to what the old tile looked like is the same pattern as 95th Street or 59th Street (with the tablets over the frieze and the little globes with diagonal bands around them) The color, based on my observations of a small remaining patch on the side of a stairway/wall is very light green in the center with ultramarine blue and medium/dark-to-medium green accents/stripes/bands. They have a nice wall to hang tile panels on, why don't they do it? Who knows!
5. See the line-by-line "Queens IND" for a detailed location of Roosevelt Avenue 2nd station.
Glad you enjoyed your trip!
Wayne
Mike:
The trackways south of 59 St/4 Av were for the proposed Staten Island Connection.
The trackways north of 57 St were planned for the original extension of the Broadway Line north via 8 Avenue, this was at a higher level than the two track east into the 60 Street Line. The express of the original 8 Avenue Connection are now utilized by the 63 Street tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
About the Roosevelt Avenue second station - You can SEE it from the end of one of the platforms, but in order to GO there, you have to walk through a gate which is usually locked, but I suspect you may find it unlocked at times. Not that I'm recommending going there alone, because you never know who or what you may find there!
From the end of one of the platforms? I thought it was at the east end if the mezzanine where there is a (sometimes locked) gate).
It is. There's a fair amount of information about it elsewhere on this site. It has been used for storage in recent years; at one time part of it served as a transit police station. The Transit Museum has run some tours there, including a walk through the steel dust down the trackway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/subway/index.html what type of car is that pictured in the background? is that the R-142??
That's an R110-A (#8005). Check the rosters.
-Dave
Nope, it's the Love Boat.
-Hank :p
The MTA wesite has mistakenly reused the D line schedules in place of the F line schedules on their wesite --or at least the last time I checked, the F does not run to 205th via dekalb ave...
I searched around on their site for a feedback email link, but could not find one, could someone direct me the correct way??
thanks,
Dave
try webmaster@mta.nyc.ny.us
or webmaster@nyct.com
One of those might work
I have noticed that there is still water leaking on to the Tracks at
116 Street and Lenox Ave. This is Just South of the 116 Street station
on the Southbound Track. If you look out the storm door you will see it. Heres my Question wasn't this suppose to be fixed when they did the Lenox REHAB.
Typical MTA. Money poured in, water spills out.
Water is very strong-it goes where it wants.
Deep wells would have been the only solution.
I've seen it too, it appears that they have it contained in a channel between the tracks and perhaps they have a drain for it somewhere before 110th Street. I only saw it on the southbound tracks.
Wayne
The problem fixed at 116st was an underground stream that was running under the tracks, undermining the track bed and tunnel supports. The current leak is like all the other leaks in the system; water mains, sewer lines, puddles, and rain all migrating through the tunnel roof and walls.
-Hank
NOTHING!
Not one of you showed up today.
That's OK. Harold and I got alot done on our own. The entire side of the car from door panel #2 to #3 was sanded and primed. Also doors 3 and 4.
The batteries reccieved their periodic maintainence, distilled water. Mike Hanna was around, working on our Lo-V car.
But since none of you were there, you all missed out on this.
Forget it ok. No one's interested, and that's the bottom line because the arm chair railfan says so. The feeling is mutual. I hate to say it, but I'm feeling negative about the 6688 project. I am up to my head in this project. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind doing it. HOWEVER, this project is going to take months to do. There's so much to do, but there's never enough people to go around.
I was informed by Jeff H. that the chances of 6688 being retrofitted with a door from another fleet is highly unlikely unless boss Lou absolutely wants it. It seems that the door's problems (or should I say appearance since that seemed to be the only problem) can be rectified. I have no idea if the floor is going to be redone either, but that's another issue.
Anyway, do the best that you can, Harry and Erik.
I hope for nothing, but success for 6398. Keep it up with the paintbrushes.
-Constantine
Check into the signal dolly car I mentioned at 207. Those doors are original and you have the glass to go with it.
Lou will be checking into it. We need door rubbers for our car.
Thank You,
Constantine Steffan
Un original, yes. But we installed the new type found on R-32's today. I found it easier than hunting for old and dried out OEM stuff.
Besides, it keeps out the weather a lot better.
WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!!!!
Thanks,
Constantine
Make sure you use the boot guard inserts, such as those on redbird cars to adapt the new rubbers.
Thank You.
-Constantine
Many of the people who post at this site are just too far away geographically to support you with their physical presence. That doesn't mean that we're not interested in the postings of your progress reports. My distance and health problems prohibit me from joining you, but I can still envy you that you can get there, and admire your restoration efforts with the R-16 and the R-17. I look forward to posts about either car as my only way of knowing how you are doing.
Keep up the good work and don't get discouraged!
Karl B
Thank you for the kind words. With that, my faith has been restored. I will provide updates and probably pictures along the way. Go to SubTalk Field Trips and see pictures of the Shore Line Trolley Museum. You can see 6688.
Cheers,
Constantine
Stef: Please clarify something for me. 6398 is an R-16 at the Trolley Museum of New York and 6688 is an R-17 at the Shoreline Trolley Museum (BERY). Am I correct? Which car are you working on as this thread lists both numbers. Thank you.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Sorry, Larry! I was actually talking about 6688. 6398 is Harry and Erik's car. We like to communicate back and forth about our respective cars. I'll be sure to clarify in the future the car that I am referring to.
-Constantine Steffan
Stef: Thanks for unconfusing me. Gookd luck with your restoration.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Stef: Thanks for unconfusing me. Good luck with your restoration.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Stef, I echo Karl Bs' words about not getting discourged. I had my last soccer game to coach Sat. Here I am a grandpa doing it. My Asst. couldn't make it so there I was by myself. No fathers even showed up & my daughter didn't like the fact that I dragged her on the field (we had to split the team in two). The only point to this off topic comment is that you do a thing because YOU get pleasure out of it. I did, you do. If you'r patient & don't get discourged things will turn out for the best. You might even see me up there in a week or two.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
I thank you for the kind words. Erik from TMNY sounds frustrated and I can symapathize with him. These projects take months to do! However, I will stick to this project 100%. Someone has got to do it, because I don't want this car to run around with just half a paint job.
One entire side is done. The roof work is in progress; now the car's going to be looped so the other side can be tended to and makes our lives a lot easier in doing the work. Painting will be easy; it's the paint removal that takes forever. At the very end, the interior will be done over.
I can hardly wait for the work to be finished! She'll look great!
At the end of all of this. I'll be getting handle time on the R-17. She'll run like a bat out of hell. This is one fast car....
Come up for NY Event at the end of the month, ok?
-Constantine
There is a point to be made here! The whole world consists of things you would like to do! You choose the one or two which you get the most enjoyment or sense of accomplishment from, and look on at others from the sideline. Saturday, I traveled to New York for the Belmont Stakes (another almost triple crown). My route involved Metro North, the Subway and the LIRR. I passed within 1/2 mile of Shore Line coming and going, but I just didn't have the time to stop in. Likewise my subway time was limited to one route. I left home at 7AM and returned at 1AM. The bottom line is you pick your entertainment for a given day and you often don't have the ability to diverge, even if you want to. Other needs prevented me from getting to Seashore on Sunday.
None of that means I am less interested in either Seashore or Shore Line. Reality said that I couldn't!
You do what you can, Gerry. I don't necessarily make it up to Shore Line every week as I get tied up in my own private affairs. I'm not saying people aren't interested in the hobby. However, the need for volunteers is a great one; the struggle to preserve history is quite large in nature. I just wish that sometimes folks would make it out to the various museums, because certainly, I'm not always going to be around. When I'm not around, someone else can pick up the slack. Then again, this is just a volunteer operation; no more, no less. You the hobbyist can decide what it is that interests you the most.
-Constantine
I wanted to come. Unfortunately, my current situation prevented me. Next month I'll be spending some time a bit closer to Kingston, and I probably could stop by.
In the NY Times Metro Section Sunday June 6, page 41, is a article about the Port Authority in its all out campaign to win apprival for a rail line linking Kennedy International Airport to local subways and trains.
After the good folks of SubTalk read this article, your most excellent thoughts are as always most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I haven't read the article yet, but the approval last week is the first major step for rail access to JFK Airport. Access to the airport has been a necessity for New York City for many years and it has finally come within reach. Sure, the project has it's downfalls (i.e. not a one-seat ride from Manhattan) but it is the beginning of what is yet to come. The project is being designed for standard gage track and 3rd Rail Power so it will be possible to have a one-seat ride from Penn Station or Grand Central(if East Side Access is implemented). Many people ask why can't the Port Authority use the old LIRR Rockaway Line for access to the airport. There are three reasons for that:
1 - The Passenger Facility Charge (PFC)Funds that are paying for the project (not taxpayer dollars) allow only for funding for this project to be built on a dedicated right-of-way. The PFC funds come from the charge collected at airports once travellers fly. Therefore if this project was to be built on the Rockaway line it would be coming out of the taxpayer's pocket. I read how many people gripe that the project is being funded by us taxpayers, and should be better spent on projects such Subway Projects as Second Avenue and/or LaGuardia Airport Access. Well, those projects are or will be funded by taxpayer dollars.
2 - The NIMBY's in the northern end of the Rockaway Line would almost certainly stop this project dead in its tracks because of their opposition of a rail line in their backyard.
3 - There is no more capacity in Penn Station for any additional trains to JFK Airport. Until East Side Access happens, running trains directly into Manhattan cannot happen.
Ridership on the AIRTRAIN will probably be very low until some sort of connection for access to Manhattan is made. A special type of car will also have to be developed to handle the tight curves within the airport that come in from Manhattan riding the LIRR rails. But if this project doesn't happen, think of what we will have. Nothing. Then us New Yorkers will be left scratching our heads still waiting for the Train-to-the-Bus-to-the-plane.
Latest I've heard: the city/state could pay for a connection between the Jamaica Branch of the airtrain and the LIRR near its terminal at Jamaica station, pointed toward Manhattan. Some trains up the Van Wyck would run to Jamaica station, others direct to Penn. As mentioned, there is no capacity at rush hour until Eastside Access (in the year 2525?). But it could run off-peak.
I don't see how anything less than an incredibly expensive direct one-seat ride from Manhattan to JFK (and LGA) has even a chance of being successful. And aren't the airlines going to challenge the use of the air passenger surcharge for construction of the Airtrain. Even after the link is completed Newark airport will still be closer and more accessible to Manhattan than JFK. What's the progress of the planned NJT to EWR connection, is it heavy rail or an extension of the monorail?
New Jersey Transit is constructing a new station on the Northeast Corridor line between Newark-Penn Station and Elizabeth. The present Newark Airport Monorail will be extended to this station, so that you will transfer from a NJ Transit (or Amtrak?) train to the monorail to get to the airport. In my opinion, this could have been an even better setup if PATH were to be extended from Newark-Penn Station to this new station. I suspect many more airport employees would use PATH to get there even though they might not want to spring for NJ Transit rail fares. In any event, this is really not a one-seat ride to the airport, because a transfer to the monorail is necessary. In some ways, the Airtrain to JFK is better because it's terminal in Jamaica will be more accessible (LIRR + E + J/Z + many bus lines) than this new Newark Airport Station.
I would have worked better if they just extended the PATH south to the airport from Penn Station. As it is, I hope NYC will get something better at LaGuardia, if not Newark.
I think there was a plan to do this at one time. I don't know what happened to it, though.
I don't fully agree with the idea of using PATH to provide a "one seat ride." Getting to Newark from any destination other than WTC is not currently a one seat ride - and in additon to the transfer it's pretty slow on top of that. If you're in Midtown, or anywhere in NY other than walking distance from WTC, using NJT would be a much faster option. True, you have to transfer to a Monorail, but you'd probably have to use that if you drove to the airport anyway - especially from rental areas or long term parking. I don't think it will be percieved as another public transit mode but rather the thing that everyone uses to get around the airport.
If you're using PATH to begin with (live in Jersey City or Hoboken and have no car), you've already overcome most sorts of anti-public transit perception so hopefully the idea of making another cross platform transfer at Newark shouldn't be a complete turnoff. Also, this will be a great opportunity for better airport access to anyone who lives along the Northeast Corridor or Long Branch lines.
The use of NJT is also significantly cheaper since there is minimal additional track required. In the current environment where anything is better than nothing - at least this is something. My biggest concern is frequency outside of rush hour. At peak it's every 15-20 minutes which is probably ok. But every 30 minutes mid-day should be beefed up a bit. There should be enough capacity to do this since it works at rush hour.
As long as they don't do something weird with the fare, it should be between $2.50 and $4.15 from NY Penn. This is still cheaper than using PATH or NJT + the Airport Express bus.
<<<2 - The NIMBY's in the northern end of the Rockaway Line would almost certainly stop this project dead in its tracks because of their opposition
of a rail line in their backyard. >>>
The Van Wyck link has been under severe fire from South Jamaica residents whose neighborhood would also be impacted by the construction.
Are some NIMBYs more powerful than others, he asked somewhat naively?
There was also a couple of brief articles in Thur. June 3rd Newsday.
Mr t__:^)
In the NY Post Sunday June 6, page 18, is a article about subway conductors putting passengers at risk of electrocution by opening the wrong-side train doors at an ''unacceptable'' rate, the NY Post has learned.
And the TA is even advertising for proposed designs for a new high-tech door system that would automatically prevent the potentially deadly mistake of opening doors that are not facing station platforms.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the article, your most excellent comments are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The easier solution is that any conductor who can't tell the difference between a wall/trackway/30' drop and a platform should be fired immediately, then arrested and charged with reckless endangerment. That should cut down the rate of incidents. Technology is not necessary to solve all people problems...
What ever happened to the LOW TECH solution of pointing to the conductor board??
I'll tell ya, many many just wave their finger and aren't even looking. I know many TA people complain when TRICKS are played with the removal of the board to see what a conductor will do. Looks like if the POST article is right (Statistics) the TA should play more games.
Just watch some condutors (I am not saying all or put a figure on it) as they POINT to the board. I've seen more and more not take it seriously, just a wave of the hand.
There is one problem when you take down Conductors boards to test the Conductors perfitancy. It causes delays in service becaause the Conductor has to Pull the Emergency Brake and walk the Platform and make sure all cars are in the station. This happened at Witlock one Saturday Morning. My conductor pulled the cord like he was suppose to then walked the Plaform. I Also put my handles in Emergency. Then we tryed to call control no luck after 5 Minutes my partner went down to tell the Station Agent what happen since there was no working payphone. Then after about 15 Minutes my contuctor Opens the doors with permittion. Also I heard on the radio that a SUPT. was suppose to be in the area. So finally I pull into Hunt Point and the Tower gave me a skip to 3 Ave. Then at 125 Express to Brooklyn Bridge. I didn't mind the Express ride but the passengers were fuming. There has to be a better way make sure conductors are doing the right thing. Maybe just have TSS'S spot check the trains. Ofcause I am not supporting conductor that do open up on the wrong side. They should be fired. There are a lot of people waiting in line for a chance to be Conductor. There was one case at Dyckman in Jan. a Conductor on a Uptown No.1 Opened on the wrong side. This was a Genaral Order and it was a Single track Operation. She was on the southbound Track. This involed a Transvse Cab. A TSS and train Operator on a Adjacent work train witness the whole thing. Also the Train Operator was taken out of service because it was eleged that the conductor told the Train Operator the she opened the wrong side and was going to open the right side. The only follow up I know is the Conductor's job was saved and now works on the Platform. Know if you want to talk about another dum thing that happen was a South Ferry a Conductor opened up the whole train instead of just the First 5 cars. Now I was told by a conductor that theres a sign the tells conductors Only open up the first 5 cars. The bottom line is it all caused by careless people not paying attention to there job and All the good employees have to suffer for the bad. All the Conductors I worked with were good people. I get conductor from the Extra list on Wednesday's and Saturday's. Some are new and nerves and I try to help carm them down.
When supervision does the entrapment thing with the boards, one of them should be hiding in a place where the board belongs since the superind't wants the efficiency checked, yet have no delay to service. Sort of like management having their cake and eating it too! Sounds like some vandal took down the board to create havoc, and Control wasn't sure if the efficiency test was in effect or not at the time as the sup't hadn't called them yet.
As a possible future conductor, I sure hope I get nice train operators like you seem to be! Thanks also for the answer fo what to do if the board is missing- if it is on the test then I know the answer now!
ps- when your C/R pulled the brake, did either or both go downtown or get time in the street?
No we did not have to go downtown. But if my Conductor opened up he would have gone downtown. Since there was no board you must pull the cord. For all you know I could have overshot the station so you must make sure all cars are in and Get permition from Control. In this case since Control was not answering the Radio you have to get to a Phone. If there no payphone that works then you have to go to the Station Agent. Hopefully that won't happen again I hate Witlock Ave.
[In this case since Control was not answering the Radio]
That itself should be considered a major safety issue.
That's part of the efficiency test of taking down the board or changing an automatic signal from green/yellow to red.They want to see what you do when they don't answer you on the radio.However,they don't refuse to answer the radio on all occassions of the efficiency test.
What has an unnecessary lengthy delay got to do with efficiency!? If a motorman in Boston overshoots, he gives the conductor 4 buzzes or bells - don't open!
What this has to do with is to see if you are following rules and regulations.
Following the rules and regulations is one thing, but delaying the customer to make a conductor jump through hoops is unfair to both the conductor and the passengers. I understand that the boards are there for a reason. Observing that a conductor follows the proper rule is fine, deliberatelty creating a situation which delays service, and then ignoring radio calls is pushing beyond the point of reasonable testing.
I agree with what you're saying,but if I'm behind a red automatic signal,I have to notify the Control Center immediately on the radio.They will ask me what the condition of the following signal is.If the following signal is clear,they will give me permission to "key-by" the signal I'm behind.If I take it upon myself to "key-by" that signal without permission from the Control center,a signal employee,or a Rapid Transit Operations employee qualified to do so,I risk losing my job.The passengers should call and complain when they are delayed by something like this.Remember,these efficiency tests exist because of the stupid actions of a few.
That happened to one a my friends. He was a M/M for 13 Years and was behind a Red signal and the Next Signal was green. It was about 8:00 on a weekday. The location was North of 79 Street and he was going south. He tryed calling control No Answer. After 5 Minutes he decides to key bye with No Permition. The was a TSS Waiting at the 10 Car mark at 79 Street and toke him Out Of Service. He was busted down to Conductor.
I always think of this everytime I run into something like this.
HE should have tried having the conductor radio control center, flagged another train and ask them to call control. If all fails secure the train and get to a phone mess up the entire railroad but never key a signal no matter what time of day it is
I can verify that the Transit Authority has performed and is performing efficiency testing on train crews with the effect of delaying train service to a point. As a matter of fact I was delayed well over ten minutes in a situation on the F line due to a red signal test which resulted in my securing of the train with "sufficient" handbrakes then fishing around for the notorious blue light phone which doesn't always work. One reason why the TA doesn't seem to do these tests during rush hours anymore. :0) If the OSR TSS doesn't wish to answer their radios, they will have to answer eventually.
We have to start to watch those Train Operators taking that Train Service Stupidvisor test on Saturday.They are already on the other side as far as I'm concerned.Be careful what you say or do around them.BTW, do any T.A employees know if that $60 tax from the union passed?
It failed. You can invest $60 wisely. Over 10,000 against the fee and 3 or so thousand for.
Queens bus is the only area that was YES- all others areas gave a resounding vote of NO CONFIDENCE to the James Gang and their plan!
RTO voted thus:
Motormen = 97% nea 3% yea
Conductors/Tower Operators = 97% nea 3% yea
Down in flames it went in all the other divisions at TA.
I posted the complete results at Continental Av. crew room.
You can be sure if I receive no response from Control Center in the event of this key by test that i will mess up the entire railroad by securing the train and the whole bit. These new radios bite the big one from the get go! plenty of dead spots so what makes them so great?
... or did you happen to hit one of those "dead spots" where Control didn't even hear your attempt to call in?
--Mark
Easy, low-tech solution:
Put the controls back on the outside of the car. Conductor would be REALLY concerned with how far he has to fall, and would always be looking down at his feet, and in that position, he should see the platform pretty easy.
-Hank
There is no problems with the efficiency test as you descibed as it sounded like the board was vandalized. If you read the bulletin on conductor's board efficency tests you would have known that there is supposed to be an OSR or RTO supervisor standing on the platform adjacent to the area of the conductor. By the way in the future call 1-800-722-2116 so the TA pays NYNEX for the collect call. Only after you waste about 15 minutes looking for the blue light phone that doesn't work. One bigger problem than opening doors on the wrong side is opening off the board. Some T/Os have stopped short or long of the boards and it really doesn't matter if the conductor opens or not as the OSR guys are removing the stop car markers to see if you are calling the control desk and checking with the conductor so read all your bulletins.
...at South Ferry a Conductor opened up the whole train instead of just the First 5 cars.
I never paid attention as to whether there is a conductor's board at South Ferry. Is there one at the end of the station (or just into the tunnel)?
--Mark
I now the conductor Position is by the set of camras at the back end of the station. The cab is the first one where the chans and camras are.
Unless they took it out(or it quit working), doesnt South Ferry (And 14th on the Lex) still have the proximity sensor that indicate the specific number of cars that can be opened?
Both are there and both still work. At SF there is no actual B&W striped board; instead there is a display which lights up with the number 5 after the gap fillers have come out and locked in place. That 5 tells you to both open only the first 5 cars and is also your indication board and must be pointed at before you open the doors. The same holds true for 14th St South-bound on the Lex, except there the number is 10.
Correct answer
Agreed, the last thing NYCT needs is another automated gadget to slow down service.
one motto stamped on TA memos "every second counts" should be outlawed. there are plenty of Conductors out there who do an outstanding job and the few SHITHEADS that make it bad for everyone.
If a fatality to a passenger happens due to a conductors actions(opening on wrong side or outside station limits) they can be criminally charged. All that has to be done is PAY ATTENTION to their duties. Removing indication boards in an alleged efficiency test as clearly an unsafe practice....
There is nothing unsafe in committing an efficiency test in the TA. In the railroads, the F.R.A. mandates efficiency tests for train crews and in the NORAC book of rules, there are signals provided for this purpose, such as track barricades for restricted speed tests to see if trains are under control around curves and in yards with limited sight distance. All engineers are radar gunned once a year ...mandatory! Even as a union man there is little that can be done here as the management has a right to ensure safe service when we sometimes fail to.
S-S-S
Safety-Service-Schedule in that order
[In the NY Post Sunday June 6, page 18, is a article about subway conductors putting passengers at risk of electrocution by opening the wrong-side train doors at an ''unacceptable'' rate, the NY Post has learned.
And the TA is even advertising for proposed designs for a new high-tech door system that would automatically prevent the potentially deadly mistake of opening doors that are not facing station platforms.]
How in the H _ _ _ does a conductor, whose major responsibility it is to operate the doors, open doors on the wrong side of the car? He/she would have to be looking at dark tunnel and support columns!
This is just plain stupidity, incompetence, or bad attitude at work. The conductors who do this should be looking at time off, a permanent write-up in their records, and be placed on probation for one-year.
This, along with a motorman taking a wrong line-up, is just not excusable. It is simply put not paying attention. Have the qualifications for train service in the subway been lowered to the point it isn’t safe to ride the trains?
And because of this the TA will have to spend millions of dollar to prevent such occurances instead of getting the money where it is needed.
I’d like to hear from those in train operation defend such incidents.
Jim K.
Chicago
Here in England ALL Underground lines are fitted with an electronic
C.S.D.E system (correct side door enable) which makes it impossible for a train operator to release the non-platform doors in error.
The only trains not fitted being the 30 or so 1959/62 stock still conductor operated on the Northern Line.
The installation of this CSDE system ,at great expense, needs a train operator to deliberatley cut out this safety feature by leaving his/her cab and operating a switch on the platform to open doors on non platform side. Perhaps London is different from NYC as the conductor (guard) has a door to open themselves rather than just looking through an open cab window.
My understanding of NYC operations was that the conductor MUST point to the chequered board which indicates train is berthed correctly before opening doors..?? Is this still the case??
Regards
Rob
London UK
:^)
Not quite correct Rob,
An Operator can simply push the in-cab 'mushroom' button, then open the doors on any side he pleases within 30 seconds of pushing 'mushroom'.
Mushroom Button???? Explain.
There is no way to defend a person who commits an accident as such as mentioned above. The conductors who permorm these incidents are getting fired almost immediately if on probation and demoted or fired otherwise. Wrong lineups have to be looked on with a case by case basis and there are some charges dropped. I think the biggest problem is caused by the Transit Authority themselves. The TA has reduced training from 1 year to the 1980s to a 50 day period in the IRT to present. The new personnel get one day per line instead of a max of the two weeks it would have required me to work the Northeast corrider to take the qualifying exam. Because our Labor Relations is in a hurry to get rid of those earning top pay eligile to retire and those using sick leave, they can't be picky about hiring those who constitute a liability to the railroad. An old timer once told me how lucky he was to get the job as the TA in the 70s refused to hire those wearing eyewear and other medical problems. I was told hiring 200 motormen a YEAR was not unusual. When I was hired as a T/O we had 75 to 100 per class every two months to replace the masses of retiring workers who were going faster than we could replace them. The TAs hiring standards don't even come close to those of the railroads where you must post a resume, take an aptitude test, stringent medicals and frequent on the job exams to see if you really want the job. Don't be quick to blame the conductor before you "point your finger" at the bean counters who put them there in the first place.
I can't conceive as to how on earth a conductor can actually open doors on the wrong side of the train! That IMHO would constitute an act of gross negligence, with the offender subject to demotion/retraining at the very least. I have applied for the C/R test myself. I know going in what side the doors open on at ALL the stations. I rehearse this periodically. Perhaps someone who makes such a grievous error should be compelled to be re-trained as to what side(s) doors open on.
One policy I'd like to see NYCT adopt is having the C/R optionally announce on which side the doors open on, as they do in Washington DC, as part of the station announcement.
i.e. "Grand Central, doors open on the left side, change here for the 4,5,6 and Times Square Shuttle..." - would have the benefit of making the C/R aware of the correct opening side, as well as being an aid to the visually impaired.
Wayne
Announcing which side the doors open would mean more time dwelling in the station if you take the "Saying Thank You" point of few the TA just took.
I too would like an annoucment as to which side the doors open. Just make it on the station if the side switches IMHO.
Announcing which side the doors would open on would not work. Many of our passengers act like space cadets. They don't know which way the train is going. Take a 75 foot car. You may be riding forward, you may be riding backwards. Conductor says doors open on your right. If you are riding backwards, doors actually open on your left! Let's not confuse them any more than they already are!
In DC, where this is standard practice, seats in all the trains face forward AND backward. The operative word is not "on your xxxx side" but "on THE xxxx side". I would have to say that many NYC passengers are indeed like sheep, but in DC there are a lot of tourists, many unfamiliar with subways and the like, PLUS a lot of locals look like they don't know which end is up and still they take the additional step of announcing the door opening side. I do belive this is with particular attention to the visually disabled. It may not work in every situation here in New York, but I still think it's worth a try.
Wayne
Like I said the training has to be improved before you can obtain an improved trainee. If the man who rear ends my car is not perfect, then neither is the one who operates train doors. If the TA bean counter says that all who pass a multiple choice exam will start training today and run trains within 2 months then what do you expect? We are GROSSLY understaffed and need the people who are down here to avoid mandated overtime. If the TA is not picky about who they hire, don't JUST blame the conductors. By the way if you thought pointing at boards would improve service, imagine the announcement made by the motorman on the original Pelham 1-2-3 as he says to the passengers "watch your step near the third rail".
Harry please do not get me wrong - I am not maligning the C/Rs- they as a whole do a superb job keeping passengers informed and very few are those who don't announce stations (yes, there are a few; and some may be the victims of faulty PA systems). The only point I was trying to make was that announcing the side on which the doors open may prevent the unfortunate incidents this thread refers to from occurring again, and in addition, also may be an aid to those passengers who have impaired vision.
I for one would endeavor to announce the door opening sides once past the probationary period, if hired to do so.
And every workplace (including the one I currently inhabit) has at least ONE total incompetent. It's just the way things are. We try and deal with it as best we can.
Wayne
Adding the phrase "doors open on the..." adds between 1.8 and 2.3 seconds to the overall total announcement time. If I announce after I hit the boards, just as the train comes to a full stop, as many C/Rs do, the difference is cancelled out. Note: I'm not sure if the regs mandate that the train be fully berthed before the announcement(s) are made.
Wayne
Not to long ago you were not to make any announcements from the time your cab hit the station until you acknowledged the board and opened the doors. This in theory was to ensure that you were paying attention to the fact that there is a station outside your cab and that you are waiting to observe the board. You should look for the board as the train is entering the station for another reason. If the the Train Operator fails to make a regular station stop the Conductor must stop the train. When you see that board come and go its a pretty good indication that the Train is not stopping. If you wait untill you see tunnel again you will have waited to long before pulling the cord. Getting back to announcements. Next they wanted all announcements made in station after the doors were open and none while the train was moving. Its been awhile since I've been on the road so I don't know what there lattest gimmick might be. If I were to hit the road tommorow I would do it the way I always did it.
Just before my cab entered the station I would ID the upcoming stop, transfers, other services and points of interests. Then I would observe that there was a station and a platform outside my cab. As the train slows I begin looking for the board, when I see the board I drop window(If train does not stop I pull the cord). When the train stops I acknowledge the board, insert key in MDC rotate to on and open the doors. Announce, ID the train, what the next stop is, stand clear.....Please. Close the doors and get out of the station. Safety being my main concern. Those stations you can get out of quickly, by all means, get out quickly. I try never to play games I stay focused on what my job is, and I let no one drag me down. If kids play on the outside of the train, it does not move, or if I have already passed idication I stop the train. Any time I have observed any thing on the out side of my train, after I have passed indication, That was not supossed to be happening I have pulled the cord. When a person knows there job and does what they are supposed to do they can be proud and know they did the best they could do. Everyone makes mistakes, I have made mistakes, if you survive the mistake you had better have learned from it. You may not be as lucky the second time.
One thing I have never done is open the train doors on the wrong side were there was not platform. The conductor who commits such a violation should be fired or put out to pasture, what ever the case may be. These jobs are not hard to learn, but one thing they due require is strict attention to duty. Something a minority of conductors have failed to factor in to the job. Yea, the training is the pits, but I spent quite a bit of my own time to make sure I knew the job. If a Counductor is not looking for a Board no amount of training is going to help.
Taking a wrong lineup may be different than opening up on the wrong side. In taking a wrong lineup, the train operator in many cases is brand new, pushed out of school car too soon, and simply screwed up. There is no customer safety issues here, although I do admit lots of inconvenience and grief for his pasengers and innocent conductor! A wrong lineup entails taking that bottom green where you needed that bottom yellow or vice versa.
The Train Operator is probably a ROOKIE!
All train operators were rookies once.
It just proves what I said to several people on the job when the TA came up with the idea of the conductors pointing to the board so as to end for all time the possibility of a conductor opening up on the wrong side: if you are not paying attention to your job, pointing becomes as routine as opening the window, inserting the key, and pushing the buttons to open the doors. I heard a lame excuse a few years ago of a conductor opening the doors on the wrong side: "Well, I DID see the board." Yeah right: He was on a 2 track line and saw the board across the tracks in the opposing direction and opened up! I can assure you, once a conductor opens up on the track side, his/her conductor career is over! A conductor who may be reading the paper, nodding off (transverse cabs are dangerous for the conductor IMHO), or talking to a pretty lady outside the cab, may have his mind off his job and may all of a sudden insert the key and open up even in between stations as soon as the train stops no matter where. It has happened! When I was qualified as a conductor almost 20 years ago, the school car Motor Instructors told us: "In a transverse cab, it is a motormans seat, not a conductors chair. You are required to be standing up in that cab all the time and be seen by passengers in between stations." I don't know if that still is official policy.
The idea of pointing at the conductor's boards is not new nor is it an NYCT invention. In Tokyo, I'm told that the motormen salute the leaving signal at every station. It only works as long as the crews take it seriously.
Right now, the TA is also considering a low-tech solution to the problem of opening on the wrong side as well. The scheme would involve the motorman enabling the door circuits. In this way, the Motorman and conductor would need to agree on which side the doors would open or none would. Therefore, the'd both need to screw up for the doors to open on the wrong side.
The NYCT has some really good conductors; Conductors who know the equipment and take their job very seriously. There is also some real garbage out there. They come from some of the lower titles with little education and the idea that the job of conductor has as much responsibility as their former title and pays more. They don't give the awesome responsibility the attention it deserves. My opinion is echo's one elsewhere in this thread. A conductor who opens on the wrong side should be summarilly fired and charged with "Aggrevated Reckless Endangerment".
There have been 6 instances of Conductors opening up on the wrong side since January.
Steve, I wholeheartedly agree, opening the wrong side doors on a subway train is nothing less than criminal STUPIDITY and that's the way I feel about it Maybe training should be improved and that voting circuit where the T/O and conductor have to agree on which doors to open shows promise but I wouldn't want to have to work with anyone that unsafe if I were a subway employee
What do you mean by "anyone that unsafe"? A man or woman cound have 20 years on the job, make an error due to innattention and be branded unsafe?! An unsafe act and an unsafe person are in two different catagories.
True an unsafe person and an unsafe act are two different things but the results are the same. There is no excusing a conductor who is so inattentive that they open on the wrong side. I'd fire them for the first offense. If someone were to be hurt as a result, I'd want criminal charges to be brought...
If I remember the books correctly, Robert Luciano of Malbone Street fame was brought on manslaughter charges but the BRT took the brunt of the damage for putting a poorly trained person behind the throttle. Training means everything as to whether negligence is present. A poorly trained person can defend himself in court by stating an engineer get 12 months at LIRR and 15 months at NJT but only 50 to 75 days in NYCT. Id like to see what would happen if a T/O were to wreck his train and then be brought on charges. If the J line T/O lived who is to say that driving while drowsy would get him the time that the fourteenth St T/O did for depraved indifference to manslaughter (I beleive). Lets here from the Lawyers!
The conductor on an NYCT train has a tremendous responsibility, considering that curves at some platforms obscure the doors and the passengers themselves have little or no respect for the employees. To allow someone who is indifferent, irresponsible, unqualified or inadequately trained to hold the position is an insult to every responsible employee the TA has, not to mention the customers. Do these guys who open the doors on the wrong side use seeing eye dogs or red and white canes?
If my regular conductor is not at work, I have to work with the conductor assigned. If I have never previously worked with that person before, I have no idea if he/she works in an unsafe manner or not. For that matter, he/she doesn't know if I work in a safe or unsafe manner either. I consider opening on the wrong side a matter of stupidity. No conductor in his right mind will intentionally open on the wrong side, or with a train not fully berthed in a station. Even if someone is injured or killed, I have been on enough criminal juries to know that to be convicted of something criminal, INTENT must be present. Now civil action is another matter.
When I visited Tokyo a few years ago, I spoke to a senior officer of the subway system there. He explained to me that the "point" was a Japanese sign of safety. So when the motorman "points to the sky" before taking power, he is signaling that not only has he received indication, but he has checked with all his senses -- and determined it was safe to go.
The steel is really flying!!!!
The last elevated girders were placed on the Manhattan side on Saturday. The only major steel left are some stringers on the west side of the main bridge.
Tracks are being installed on the Brooklyn elevated approach.
Comparing my before and after pictures,it is really obvious how much the structure has been lowered at the elevated connection.
Sounds good! Are they actually using traditional box-girder construction out there? Of course, the devil's in the details, as usual - the electrical stuff, signals, etc. etc.
Too bad they couldn't do this on the Manhattan Bridge.
Wayne
The girders are welded fabrications, not riveted. They are pre-assembled in pairs to speed erection. I think this is because the work was designed by DOT and not the TA.
I know that some of you work at the Trolley Museum of New York and might be able to verify the accuracy of this information:
In 1973 45 or the remaining 48 SIRT ME-1 Motors were scrapped.
Three cars survived 353 at Clifon and 366 and 388 on the former Travis Branch. 353 was subsequently moved to join the other two.
These three cars were (I believe) purchased by the Trolley Museum of New York at Kingston but remained on Staten Island for many years.
#366 was sold to Seashore Trolley Museum and was removed on 11/6/93.
#388 was sold to the Shoreline Trolley Museum and removed in 5/94.
#353 remains on Staten Island still owned by the TMNY.
Please note that I am not asking for info about SIRT/NYCTA trailer 508
which was used for several years at Kingston as a Gift Shop and was destroyed by fire in November 1991.
Any info from the Shoreline or Seashore people would also be welcomed.Thanks in advance.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Indeed #366 is at Seashore. I was in NYC the day it was moved, and did a report on "A Subway Going to Maine" for WCBS. A while back I sent Dave a picture of the car for the Museum page; I don't think it's up yet however. (Dave, if it has disappeared from your pile, let me know and I'll resend it.)
Todd: Thank you very much,that one mystery solved. Would you know off hand what paint scheme she is in.
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
IIRC, the car is painted dark blue.
Thank you very much'
Larry,RedbirdR33
Where is #353 currently located?
Unfortunatly 353 will not be coming to TMNY. At the march or April board meeting it was voted upon to disenfranchise the car on site, subject to the approval of Mike Hanna. It is still on the former Con Ed territory unless Sarnelli or Naporano's hasn't removed it yet. 353 is in very poor condition with little interior remaining. Due to the great cost in removing, transporting and lack of manpower for restoration work at TMNY, it will not come to Kingston.
Poor SIRT car!
Even at a museum it's a Second Class Citizen. :-(
Harry: Thanks very much for the update. ITs too bad about 353 but I know resources are limited.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Your info is correct for 388 at Branford.
Jeff: Thank you very much for confirming that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
hey everyone,
i have a question that's been on my mind for the past couple hours. How old were you guys when you became rail fans or subway fanatics or whatever? i'm only 15 and probably one of the youngest people who reads this list if not the youngest. i can remember back to when i was like 7 and wanted to take the subway to the science museum and always wanting to take the T even if it was eaiser to drive. i live in boston but on my last trip to new york in march, i realized just how much i do love the subway. all my friends say i should find a job relating to the subway. i was just curious
Matt
Matt, I started liking the trains at about the same age as you did, age 7. I remember the R-100's while going to Yankee Stadium in the 60's with my younger brother and Father and Grandfather. I always stood in the front car so i can see out the window. Now at the age of 42 i still like standing at the front window of a train that does not have a full width cab like the #1 or # 7 tain to Shea Stadium.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Matt,
You're definitely not the youngest, but close! My grandfather and great-grandfather both worked for the PTC, the trolley company in Philadelphia, and I remember walking up my grandfather's street in Philly with him to watch the trolleys on Germantown Ave., this would have been in the mid 1970s. Thru high school I didn't really have the interest but when I got to college and had access to nyc.transit that's when I got back into it. Then the web started, and you know the rest!
-Dave
(Webmaster of www.nycsubway.org)
I am 17 Years old and had been a Railbuff at 6 Years old. But more of one now. I like Rideing on my dads train the whole 8 HRS. Just looking out the storm door on a Redbird is FUN day. My intrest started at 3 Years old watching Mr.Rogers I loved that Trolley Car. Then by accident I triped over my dads book on Ele's. Then at the age of 7 my mom would take me on my dads train and around 14 Years old I just went buy my self. This summer I am planning on doing a Railfan trip around the subway once a week. Probably on Wednesday's. I only have 3 Trips in mind. 1. Ride the A Train from 207 Street to far Rock Then Far Rock to Broad Channel then to Beach 116. Beach 116 to Euclid if there a cross over sooner to go back to Lefferts let Me know. Then Lefferts Blvd to 168 Street. Then 168 Street to 242 Street.
2, Ride the N Train from Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island hopefully a R 42. Then Coney Island to Times Square then to Main Street and back. Maybe run into some of My IRT friends. Then Take the No.1 back to 242 Street.
Dave JR
Go treat yourself to a ride on the Q. Get on at 34th Street or above. That's a railfan experience not to be missed. It's fun watching them leave the slow R68s in the dust once they're outdoors.
Wayne
I will age that to my weekly summer Joyride.
I was a subway (and bus) fan for as long as I can remember. When I was 4 or 5 I can remember looking at the nearby 2 & 5 trains from my window. My elementary school was on Tremont Ave close to West Farms Square and I would always watch the trains. I always liked all trains, but I was really interested in M.U. trains which is true for me to this day.
Wayne
I actually got my start when I was 2 or 3 years old and my Mom, Dad or cousin who used to baby-sit took me in a stroller to the Avenue P overpass by the Sea Beach tracks - those triplex's looked awesome to such a young tot. My Dad would take me for occasional rides, even though he wasn't a rail buff. At around age 5 I actually took my first trip "alone" on the Sea Beach - from Bay Parkway to New Utrecht Ave and return. Of course, my Dad was following closely, just in case! As Ed Alfonsin knows, my elementary school had some classrooms facing the Culver Line, and I got lucky a few years - loved watching those BMT Standards going by. When I moved from Brooklyn to Long Island at age 11, I expanded beyond the subway and became an LIRR and bus fan.
All I know is that I wasn't old enough to see up to the railfan window on the R1-9's that ran on the Concourse Line. We lived in the Bronx until I was six... so it had to be at an age of six or under!
My earliest memories are of riding an F of R-1/9 cars from Delancey to Roosvelt and then a local to 63rd Drive in 1972.
I remember the huge end signs of the R-40's when they were new then. It was an influence. The wooden blocks I played with coincedently had a red F. Of course it became the lead car of my "train".
From then on I was hooked.
my memories: As a child in the late 50s I would take lego type blocks and build stations and use alphabet blocks as trains. Of course they'd have BMT and IRT and I set them up so I could turn the blocks to change the sign! If I could not take out the blocks, I'd get the phone book, use a punch can opener and run along the map in the phone book. I remember the Lo-V, AB and standards where still running. The new kids on the block were the R16 or r17(the red seats which were padded and later replaced by coral fiberglass). I remember the excitement of the new brightliners (R32) and the World's fair Cars with the european Tilt in Windows (now standard system wide)and in the new two tone blue color.(that they should have left in the original color!)
I better stop now before I overwhelm the site with my fondest memories and risk Dave's wrath!
(Am I that bad that you think I'd be upset about posting subway memories????? That's what the site is for!)
As a child in the late 50s I would take lego type blocks and build stations and use alphabet blocks as trains.
Remember Lincoln Logs? Specifically the green slats that were used to build the roof of your "cabin"?
Well, ALL of my Lincoln Log slats had side images of the beloved R-32 hand-drawn onto them, and I'd tape 10 together and drag them around the carpeting in my room, which would make "tracks". A shoe box made a fine station, I might add.
I also figured out a way to turn a roll of toilet paper into a train. All you needed was a table with slats in it (so you could watch the "elevated" train on its "el" fromunder the table) and a lot of imagination. Sure wish I had one of those Scott 1000-sheet roles when I was a kid!
My folks had purchased a number of metal shelving kits when I was young (we were living in an apartment for a short time and this was "short term" shelving). Some of the shelve connectors looked very much like the girder bridges on the Brighton line, and others were thin pieces of metal with three holes in it (used to adjust the shelves' height). Three holes corresponded perfectly with any IRT train at the time, so I instantly had an IRT fleet to join my "R-32s". And I even had plate girder bridges to run my trains over.
I couldn't have been older than 9 years old at the time.
--Mark
Oh yes- I remember them well. Do you remember the erector sets (I never had one but saw them at the Gilbert Hall of Science which was near Broadway and 23rd street). OK- I celebrated my semi-centenial last October.
Bring back the 15cent fare, and the Lo-V trains!!!
And Q's on Myrtle, Standards all over Brooklyn, PCC's on McDonald, Gate Cars, And the WHOLE Third Avenue El.
Yes, I remember the Erector Set. Always wanted one but was too young to have one.
--Mark
Well, I guess there are advantages to being old after all. I had my own set, inspired by Sputnik I guess, that built a rocket that bore a surprisingly good resemblance to the Apollo/Saturn V. I also had my Dad's set, in a green metal box, that I could use to build a steam engine, a crane, a bridge, and lots of other things. The two sets weren't directly compatible, however - the girders were slightly different widths and consequently the grooves didn't line up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems common (at least in this thread) that railfans of today had "engineering" toys as kids - erector sets, building blocks, Legos, or my particular favorite, the girder & panel building/bridge construction kits. Of course nowadays you can't get any of that stuff, really. Even legos are not the free-form building toys they used to be. Now your lego kits can basically be used to build the one thing that's pictured on the box.
Quite true, Dave. However, the Meccano folks in France who now own Erector produce several large sets that can be used for a wide variety of projects, as well as a number of specialized sets that are aimed at just one thing. Unfortunately, they are hideously expensive - my recollection is that the retail price in 1995 of the largest set was around $220 (we sold them at The Hobby Shop in Raleigh, NC, with which I have been involved for a number of years), and consequently they are out of reach of many families. Nowadays, as well, the family that has money to spend on only one or two relatively big-ticket "toy" items doesn't think Erector or Lionel either - they think iMac or Compaq or some such. Priorities have changed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nowadays, toys don't leave as much to the imagination as they did when I wes younger. My favourite thing to do as a kid was to build my matchbox city with my matchbox cars, my snap-and-build house sets (I was great at making 7 story tenements and who cares if one of my cars was 3 stories tall) and my HO-scale trains as my "subway". I didn't have directions to follow - I basically just created cities on the fly. Today, you can buy a road set that you just have to assemble once and it doesn't give you much flexibility. Both hot-wheels and Matchbox make these kind of sets.
--Mark
I had Legos - STILL HAVE 'EM! they're not assembled into anything. Plus Lionel Trains (027 gauge) set up on a 8x4 wall board with Bachmann "Plasticville U.S.A." buildings. Later on, in 1984-1987 I had a 2 x 8x4 set-up with seven Bachmann Brill Trolleys and about 80 buildings. Still have it all, but it's not set up. And I need all new track, three of the trolleys need new motors and the power-pack is just about shot.
Wayne
You had those Kenner Girder and Panel/Bridge and Turnpike sets, too? I still have mine in the garage somewhere, along with my Lego bricks, but most of the cross braces aren't usable. I always tried to duplicate the Chicago Skyway, which remains one of my all-time favorite bridges to this day.
How about Tinker Toys? I had those, too.
Oh yes - I built many a telephone booth and jet airplane with those.
When I was done playing with the jet airplane, it was always fun to crash it into a wall before I put the tinkertoys back in their can.
--Mark
I have an Erector set from about 1965, when Gilbert was very near the end. There was a train store called Julie's not far from the Hall of Science which sold American Flyer, as well as Savoy Merchandise on W. 23rd St. Then there was Madison Hardware, but they sold Lionel.
I used to make a long freight train out of wooden building blocks. They came in a cloth bag and when you dumped them onto the floor, it sounded like a 4000-series Chicago L train passing by.
Though I've only been posting for about 2 or 3 months, I've been coming to this site since I was 14 and have been a railfan since about 10. Many of my earliest memories are of riding the MFL with my family every Saturday to go here or there. One day, when I was 10, I started to ride the El by myself to school and wanted to learn more about it.
When I started to hear tales about the subways of other cities(particularly of New York) I read what I could and asked questions(though I rarely got satisfactory answers).
I'm 16 and have learned a lot since then. I'm the lone sheep among my friends and family who's a railfan, but it's a perk of sorts. Whenever someone goes to a city with a subway(particularly New York) I'm either asked directions or, if it's close by like New York, I'm asked to come along!
Hey, there are other things a 16 year old could be up to>:)
From about the age of 5 (around 1960) on - I remember riding the subway to go into the city to restaraunts, the New York World's Fair - family gatherings. The subway and sometimes railroad - always took me places that bring back good memories.
The flexibility and coverage of the New York City subway system were awesome then and still are now.
In my era - R1-9 cars were the mainstay of the E, F & GG Queens lines (as well as most other IND trains) where we travelled most often. Their distinctive paddle fans, air doors, caned seats, incandescent lightbulbs and severeley aged appearence gave these cars an aura that reminded the rider they had clearly been built prior to World War II and were quite old.
In that time (the early 60s)the interior of the subway was a bit more interesting. Advertisements were all over the place. Various vending machines were in place throughout the subway. The culture was different. For example - My Dad got a ticket for carrying a lit pipe into the subway. He had forgotten to put it out before entering the system. Of course back then - lots of men smoked a pipe. But I haven't seen much of that lately. Seems so long ago.
My interest in the subway increased as I became old enough to explore some of it on my own. I recall riding on some very unique trains particularly on the old BMT. I rode Q cars on the Myrtle Avenue El and Standards on the LL Canarsie line. Riding on these trains was like rding on an operating museum. My Dad told me that he rode those same trains to school and here we were generations later - still on the same trains.
From a historical perspective - much of this equipment was built before the "Great Depression." When this equipment was relatively young or new, Laurel & Hardy and the Three Stooges were playing first run movies. Hitler was only beginning his rise to power. Korea and Viet Nam were generations away in future time. And when that future time came, these sturdy old machines were still in service and going strong. They were impressive. The last R9s were withdrawn from service in 1977 - 3 years after we pulled out of Viet Nam.
In the early 70's, I would frequently ride the Myrtle Ave El to the end and by Metropolitan Avenue - where one could see lots of cars during the day in the yard. Many were I think awaiting the scrapper. Cars sitting in the yard seemed to always include some Q cars as well as R1-9s and perhaps some Standards. It was sad to see them finally go.
Some subway equipment seemed static over the years. But change was afoot.
When I was 12, I rode several R11s on the Franklin Shuttle. Only 10 of these were ever built and a ride on one was something special. Although they were never produced in quantity, they were among the first stainless steel cars built. They were a peak into the future for folks in the 50s.
The "Modern Era" was ushered in with the "Budd Brightliners" - R32s on the Brighton, Sea Beach, West End Express and local trains - the Q, QB N, NX, TT and QT. Those R32s had a deep blue door color with Stainless steel fluting over the car body and green illumiation on destination signs. And as for speed - the R32s would just fly on the Brighton Express and the NX. The rebuilt R32s of today don't really do justice to the as delivered R32s. They seemed like man's greatest technology at the time.
The Slant R40's came just a few years later. They looked "space age" with their angled noses and came on line while I was in my teens. These were the first trains that were air conditioned in sizable numbers (about half the fleet of R40s came delivered with air conditioning.) By the time I was in college, I found Slant 40s on the E & F - something we'll probably not see again.
And at that same time (the mid 70s) I began to see some of the ancient equipment leave for the scrapper. I saw R1-9s at Coney Island yard queing up for the scrapper where a generatioon earlier - brand new R32s were put in service. It's hard to imagine but some day - that same yard will probably be part of the deadline for R32s and R40s.
I'll miss them too. But I think I miss the R1-9s and the Q cars the most - and oh yes the Standards too. They were part of a different time - from long ago - - from the time of burlesque theaters, the "Roaring 20s", the WPA, the era of steam engines and trolley cars, from before the war and from before so many things in this world and in our lives moved on with inevitable change.
When I joined the ERA at the age of 12 (#2305) one of the questions on the application was how long I'd been a railfan. I don't remember what I put down, but it had to evaluate to "always."
It's the kind of hobby which I think most people are born to.
I found out fairly late in life that by dad was a railfan, though not as intense. My daughters both like to ride trains and my younger loves to study "The Map."
Yikes! You don't suppose it's genetic, do you?
I can't remember a time in my life when I wasn't a railfan. Yes, the interest has ebbed from time to time, but it's never disappeared. Its focus has shifted; when I was young (at the end of the age of steam) I summered with my grandparents, third house up from a small branch yard with a pair of Consolidations to handle the switching duties (diesels handled all the trains on the branch). When I was older, I got hooked on the GG-1 and other PRR mainline electrics, and on streetcars as well. A year in Spain as an exchange student piqued my interest in subways (the Barcelona Metro, although not nearly as extensive then as it is now, was still a marvelous system). And I was in and out of NYC and Chicago often as well, so the subway in NY and Chicago's "L", plus the North Shore Line, became favorites, along with the Broadway, Mother's choice of transportation between the two cities. Now, as father of four and grandfather of one, I can count one serious railfan and three "sort-of" fans among my children, and my grandson looks forward to my visits so his Zayda can take him to see the Great Armour Yellow Omaha Borg Machine (a.k.a. UP) and the BNSF Great Pumpkins charge across the desert near his home. (OK, so to him they're just trains, he's only two, but he loves them!)
It's a great hobby!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i remember playing with first set of trains "American Flyer S gauge" when i was 5 or so. going to downtown newark's penn stations to watch the trains about 11 or 12. my first trip was from newark to elizabeth on the PRR. i got scared when the ticket agent asked my age. i lied and said 13. his answer oh you pay full fare of $.41
I've been fascinated by trains for as long as I can remember. As a kid in South Bend, we would frequently see freight trains cruise by on the Grand Trunk Western and New York Central Railroads. I am told that when I was teething and would get restless, my father would bundle me up in the car and drive over to the Grand Trunk Western tracks, perhaps a mile or two from our house, and wait for a train. That always did the trick.
My love for the subway began on July 21, 1965, when I was 8. We were visiting New York and took the subway from Brooklyn to Manhattan - an N train of shiny new R-32s. It was more of the same the next day. I found out much later that the Triplexes made their last runs on the day we left for home, the 23rd. I didn't see them.
Two years later, we moved to New Jersey and began visiting New York regularly. The rest is history.
My career as a railfan began when my mother used to take me in the stroller to Savin Hill Station to watch Old Colony and Subway trains pass below, probably before the age of 2. The old 0600 and 0700 trains on the Cambridge-Dorchester line (now the Red Line) were my favorites, I hated their replacements which arrived when I was 9. Also chased trackless trolleys around the area on trips with my dad, who also introduced me to the gatekeeper at Wyoming Av. on the B&M in Melrose. Before I was 10, I knew how to crank the gates. By the time I was 12, I was riding by myself and at 14 had made friends with the information clerk at Park St. as I travelled to school every day. The rest is history, and I have learned a lot of it through the years.
Good Luck!
Gerry
I was probably about 5.
I have an old book that I wrote in Kindergarten about AAA locals, AA expresses, and A superexpresses on a six track line.
I did my first solo tours of the system when I was 10 after school was over. I had a free school bus/subway pass back then and used it to the max. It drove my poor mom crazy. But the subways were much safer back then in 1963.
I was also 10 (about 4 months short of my 11th birthday) when I started subway riding by myself. I can date it because my first solo transit rides were on the soon-to-be-abandoned Church Ave. trolley.
Until now I thought I was about the only kid who got away with it so young, at least back then.
I don't date back quite so far, but in the 6th grade, you had the option to take the "city bus" instead of the "school bus". You had to be cool, so a sixth grader, of course, would get his "bus pass" and take the "city bus".
Then I heard the "bus pass" was good on the train.
Well, living in Brighton Beach in the 60s and early 70s, rush hours was like giving a kid a spoon to eat a mountain of ice cream! Always lots of action (and the small elevated yard tor layups too). I started taking the D train 2 express stops to Kings Highway where I'd transfer for the B5 (now B82) bus to school. Then I went the other way, taking the QJ into Coney Island, transferring for the F to Kings Highway so I could go "around the horn" (as I called it) at Stillwell Ave. Then I learned that the N train went to Kings Highway so now I had THREE different ways to get to school by subway!
Then I thought my life was over when we moved to Midwood, 2 blocks from school, in the 8th grade. No bus pass! No Brighton Beach EL to watch from my window sill (often falling asleep in the sitting position ON the window sill).
Then I started high school in 1976 on Church Ave & Ocean Pkwy in Brooklyn. And the cycle started all over again. But this time, I got a longer ride on the F train to Church Ave! And I got to go "around the horn" nearly every day! You have no idea how many subway tokens I must have "borrowed" from my father to go out of my way to ride the train). By this time, the Culver Shuttle was out of service but the EL remained standing for many years afterward, and I'd often explore it.
I'm sure I was born with a subway gene. Every once in a while, my doctor asks what that rumbling is when he checks my heart and I tell him that it's an R1/9 train groaning its way to another station with a peak load :) So then he writes a prescription for some kind of headache medicine becuase he's convinced I'm sick in the head .....
--Mark
So then he writes a prescription for some kind of headache medicine becuase he's convinced I'm sick in the head .....
Absolutely, positively, no comment :o)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And the Peanut Gallery comes alive .... :)
--Mark
Matt,
I also became a "subway fanatic" around 7 years of age (1956- there: I've dated myself!). We used to go to Brighton Beach in the summer from Ridgewood, where I grew up. Most of the time we would take the Canarsie line from Myrtle Ave. to Union Square and then change to the Brighton Express (ususally Triplexes, but sometimes Standards). I would always insist that we take the first car so that I could look out the front window.
I've been a subway fanatic ever since my Mother began teaching me my alphabets by pointing to the icons on the wall going up and down the Flatbush Avenue IRT line.
I took my first full-blown day trip in July 1963 at age 8.
I did take a hiatus of sorts in the late 80s-early 90s but came back big time in 1996 and have been going full tilt since then.
I started a photo project, the goal of which is to photograph every station, and am now about 65% complete.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
I knew at age 3 what I wanted to be: a streetcar motorman!! Lying in my upstairs bed in the summer (pre AC) I could hear the Peter Witts winding up going up the hill to Parkville.
Taking a 26 line 3 car train with my parents to Bay Shore Park, and OMSE's (One Man Single End - Brill Semi-convertibles) to my grandparents house. When the 15 car on West Baltimore Street became the 20 bus, it wasn't as much fun. By 1960 I was hanging around the 3 surviving car houses, learning to run PCC's. The happiest day of my early teen years was discovering that there were a bunch of guys that felt exactly the same way. (and a lot of them are still my friends 35 years later) We went everywhere, and because a couple of them had driver's licences, we got to got to Washington (where streetcars ran with their trolley poles hooked down and still flew!) and Philadelphia, with lots of streetcars north, south, east and west.
In early 1963 I even realized my boyhood dream when I became an operator for BTC (out of York Road Car House). That ended on November 3, 1963 when the stinkbuggies took over all Baltimore.
BUT...I had discovered the treasure trove - the historic collection. The cars that the United Railways had set aside in the 1920's - wonderful cars that dated to the 1890' (and a couple even earlier). That collection eventually became the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, where I have membership number(and Badge)20. BSM is my unpaid second job, and 33 years of streetcar management hasn't dampened my love.
I can remember living in the Flatbush section of Brooklyn in 1956 and being VERY interested in the subways. I can remember to this day the first R-21 I rode in one day, that brand new smell, and cleanliness -- it was in 7211. My father took me to the firehouse in the Bronx where he worked, and we were lucky enough to get the very same trainon the way home that afternoon, with 7211 on the rear this time.
I remember riding my tricycle around the back of the Howard Street
yards in Chicago where the trains used to loop to go back to the station. You could stand on Juneway Terrace and see the whole thing.
I must have been 4-5 years old.
Hello Folks, Does any one know when the #7 line will get new cars or the R62As? If someone knows please contact me.Tank you have a nice day.
Never. The Flushing line will be recieving some old Low-Vs that were found at NIMCO.
-Hank :)
And some of the fishbowls over there will be heading to Flushing Garage, right?
Actually, they may come from Toronto. TTC rebuilt over 200 fishbowls (no A/C though).
--Mark
Oh I WISH this was true!!
--Mark
AND some R-15s they found squirreled away in the back of Naporano's! :o) But we probably will have to wait until their GOH (Sumitomo) is complete.
Wayne
Let's hope they're Steinways. Otherwise, it'll be an R-68-like scenario in the Steinway tunnel. Or worse.
The Flushing Line will see ONLY REDBIRDS until the TA exercises for the optional order of R-142's. Right now, all R-142's will be on the #2 and 5 lines. (My lines) Sorry! Besides, The 7 lines running time is only about 30 minutes as compared to the 2 and 5 lines 1 1/2 hour trip time. Therefore the 7 should get ALL the older equipment.
As long as the A/C works the customers probally won't care.
Why should #7 get old equipment because its running time is 30 minutes? The 1-1/2 hour running time for #2 & 5 doesn't mean much, as only a railfan would ride the entire trip. I suspect the average ride on the #2 & 5 is not much longer than the equivalent figure for the #7. Of course, I agree with Thurston - if the A/C works and the R-33S/36's are clean and keep running, who needs new trains on the #7. Long live the redbirds!
I would guess - TA folks, please correct me if I'm wrong - that the reason the older equipment would be placed on the shorter runs is due to a shorter MTBF. On a shorter run, a train that must be deadheaded due to problems has a shorter distance to travel to the yard or, if totally disabled, less time to wait for a tow - in other words, less overall disruption of the line in the event of a failure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That makes alot of sense. Sure explains why the oldest equipment is now on the #2, 5 & 6!
But the R-33S don't have A/C! That's why they must go as soon as possible. All the R-36 (youngest Redbirds) should go to the mainline IRT.
Ba Humbug!
The only solution I see in the near term to the problems faced by the subway is to wait for Rudolph Giuliani to leave office. When we have a mayor who does not think a Second Avenue subway is a priority, and who thinks extending the 7 to the Javits Center is more important, there is no hope for our beloved subways with him in office. And that is just one example, we all could think of others, such as the closure of abandoned station tours, including the beautiful City Hall station, because of a concern for security that verges on paranoia, if it isn't already there.
This mayor has shown himself fully ready to support politically popular decisions (at least as far as subways are concerned) over those that would make sense for the system and the people who use it. I know that political discussions are not encouraged here in Subtalk, but I think this is extremely pertinent. I think all New Yorkers who care about our city and its transportation system should not only wait for Rudy to leave office, but should support and work for WHOEVER opposes him for the Senate.
Do you really think a Senator Rudy Giuliani is going to give a ret's ass (based on prior positions) about what is REALLY needed for the subways of New York?
Remember, if you just sit back, and think that one person doesn't matter, you are wrong, and you then deserve whatever and whoever you get from your elected officials.
Rudy has different transportation policies than many of us. But he is the first Mayor in a long time who has shown any interest in any substantial subway improvements at all. Remember Al Appleton, now with the RPA, under Dinkins ("let's face it, the city's transporation infrastructure is built.") Depending on who the new Mayor is, we might get more subways and renovated schools, but more hospital beds and public housing is more likely.
I think New York City need a intelligent Mayor and get rid of Rudy Giuliani. Im sick of tired hearing his name.
1) Which mayor since Unification (1949) has significantly expanded transit?
2) Why do you believe any future mayor will spend significant city funds on non-critical infrastructure (i.e., non-crisis spending)?
3) Which person or persons who might run for Mayor (of any party) do you feel would be more inclined than Giuliani to spend money on infrastructure than social spending.
(Which future Mayor do you think will be more inclined to spend on intrastructure?)
Based on their public statements, Hevesi is the only one who places an emphasis on public works and debt reduction. I've never done this before, but if I knew where to send it I might even send him a campaign contribuiton.
But keep in mind, the City doesn't control its spending priorities. The state does.
Hevesi is careful with the city's money but isn't here an inherent conflict between his possibly politically motivated desire for more public works, and admirable concern for debt reduction?
(Debt vs. public works). The two have nothing to do with each other. We've increased the debt -- city and state -- without building anything. If we stop cutting taxes and keep cutting operating expenditures, we could build something without increasing the debt.
Larry and Paul said it very well, so I'll just expand a little further.
Why would you elect someone who has proven to care about nothing but her self interests and those of her only true constituents( those welfare checks again) to spite some one who HAS done SOMETHING for New York.
I don't like the Mayor. He's a megalomaniac. (So's Hillary) But at least he's effective. He's got more done than several of our previous mayors. But that still doesn't change my personal opinion of him(as***le)
And Hillary? She only veiws us as to what can NY do for HER. Rudy would at least try to do something for NY.
So back to the point. We should elect a poseur, so we can spite the mayor, because we're angry that he doesn't support transit?
Got news for ya: the mayor's influence on transit is not what you think it is. The Governor, now he's a different story.
Quoting Ed Koch: "pick 12 issues you care about. If a canditate agrees with 8 of those 12, then vote for him. If you find one that agrees with all 12, then your a political flunkie!"
What would Senator Clinton know about the subways??? At best she would want to take our money and build a subway in Little Rock!
I mean reallY!!! I sure don't agree with Gulliani, but at least he's from New York. Anyone outside of Arkansas would have to be crazy to vote for Hillary. Hey, What about Mary Jo Buttafucco for Senate? At least she's from New York!
If you hate Mayor Giuliani, then don't you think that voting for him on the Senate would get rid of him faster? Senators are not as important as the Mayor. Besides, Giuliani is a better person that that Carpetbagging Hillary Clinton.
And where do you all think this wonderful 'next mayor' is going to get the $$ Billions required for massive subway expansions? It isn't like he can print up money in the basement of City Hall. Start increasing taxes and we will repeat the errors of the 1960s and 70s. Companies are extremely mobile, they are not wedded to NYC as in the past. Telecommunications technologies are allowing more and more people to work from home. You can't expect the current wave of budget supluses to continue forever. That's why they call it an economic cycle. If the 'next mayor' is as smart as Giuliani, (I hope) he will be as careful with my tax money has the current mayor has tried to be.
(Careful with the tax money -- economic cycle). We've been burned by being a responsible city in an irresponsible state. We built up a surplus rather than spending it, so the Vampire State eliminated the commuter tax and cut our share of school aid even lower, since we don't need it. They'll spend it elsewhere. When we go into recession, on the other hand, the state doesn't help, because this is where all their money comes from.
I always hate when irresponsible states kick sand in responsible cities' faces.
Someone should send Giuliani a Charles Atlas guide. Maybe he'll even win his girl back.
NYC is a "responsible" city? With ***thirteen*** (last I heard) public money pits AKA hospitals? [n.b. Los Angeles and Chicago manage fine with one each] I'd hate to see an irresponsible city!
Maybe Rudy can invest the city budget in Cattle Futures and make Millions!!! Or maybe he can get China to put up the money for the second avenue line.
Hey, there use to be a really good websight that covered all NYC agencys that I once got throught the Transfer station at Subtalk. Anyone know how to find it or what it's called???
Probably thinking of http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/
-Dave
That's it, thanks alot.
Dear Sir/Madam:
When the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge reopens, how
will the B, D, N and Q trains operate? Will they close the north side
tracks and reroute the B, D, N and Q trains over the south side tracks
and along the Broadway Express tracks? Will they ever run a Broadway-
Brighton Local via the Montague Street Tunnel again like the old QT
in 1960-1967?
Why do all B trains BYPASS DeKalb Avenue even during the non-
rush hours today? I remember the B trains only stopped at DeKalb
Avenue during weekends and evenings, but now they bypass DeKalb
Avenue during weekends as well as weekdays. Why do the B trains
STOP at DeKalb Avenue northbound during 8pm-12 midnight?
James Li
The diversions when the southside tracks are in use are:
B Shuttle from Coney Island to 36th St. (can be extended via tunnel to Broadway Local or Nassau) and from 2nd Av. to north terminal.
D Split Service 57th St.-7th Av. to Coney Island via Broadway Express
and Broadway-Lafayette to 205th St. via 6th Av. Express. D connects at 34th St.
N Coney Island to Ditmars via Sea Beach, 4th Av. Express, Bridge and Broadway Express
Q Coney Island to Queensbridge via Brighton Express, Bridge and Broadway Express
No, the B runs to 57th, Astoria or Queensboro Plaza via exp (it's only a shuttle if the bridge is completely closed); the N stays local in the tunnel; the 6th Av B and D start at 34th St.
That's the way it was from 86-88. I doubt that the B would be shortened to a shuttle only.
Dear Eric B:
When the South side tracks are in service, the service will
be as you stated. But why will the D from Coney Island terminate
at 57th Street-7th Avenue? That will cause delays on the Q which
will run to/from 21st Street-Queensbridge. Why not extending the
D to 21st Street-Queensbridge with the Q or Ditmars Blvd-Astoria
with the N?
I still will like to know why B trains bypass DeKalb Avenue
at ALL TIMES, except in the evenings when a limited number of trains
stop at DeKalb Avenue and run local on 4th Avenue in the northbound
direction?
James Li
They probably won't run the Q to 21st. It'll probably go to 57th as well, while a shuttle runs from 21st to 6th Av. The next bridge change may be around the time the 63rd St connection opens, so it will be the new V service, and I don't see them sending both D and Q into Queens with the V, and it won't go to Astoria because they send the B there. now if they were to build a 600ft section of 2nd Ave, they could terminate one service at 57th of Lexington, relay to the new stub ended section where it could switch to the Brooklyn bound tracks and return, while the other service goes to Queens.
What I wish they would do next time is change that part of the B to T, and the D to U. They could put new signs in the 68's, and paste the new letters over the yellow B and D on the rest, since that has been the practice for the 2/5 diversion last year, and the Marcy Av. terminal now.
The B running local at some times may have something to do with some work trains having to use the exp. tracks, IIRC. But I'm not exactly sure.
You're correct about why the B train uses the local tracks on Fourth ave between 36st and Dekalb aves.
Dear Eric B:
Remember from April 30th, 1995 to November 12th, 1995, when the
Manhattan Bridge was completely closed to subway service? The Q
ran to/from 21st Street-Queensbridge via Broadway Express, Montague
Street Tunnel and Brighton Local to/from Coney Island. They should
extend the D and Q to 21st Street-Queensbridge or Queens Blvd, since
the 63rd Street Tunnel Connector will open then, and they said they
need more service to Queens Blvd to relief the overcrowding on the
E and F Lines. Mr. Peter Dougherty told me that the 63rd Street line
will need at least one service to/from 6th Avenue and Broadway via
the 63rd Street Tunnel to solve the E and F congestion.
Why was the M train also affected when the Manhattan Bridge was
under construction? The M train runs via the Williamsburg Bridge and
the Nassau Street Loop. Will the M train also be affected when the
south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge reopens to service?
What kind of subway cars will we see on the southern BMT Division
lines when the South side service goes into effect? When will this
configuration go into effect? Will it immediately go into effect when
the 63rd Street Tunnel Connection opens in August 2001 or will it go
into effect in 2003?
James Li
In '95 the Bridge was completely closed, and only on middays and weekends, so you only had the Q to worry about, no D,and there was no serive from 6th Av to 21st. But when the Bway side is open, you'll have 3 expresses. On goes to Astoria, the others to 57th.
The M is affected when the bridge is fully closed because they want to give the trainslots to the N Q and R, and the M would get in the way. Now if they had rebuilt the Franklin as a 2 track line, theyc ould have sent alot more Brighton service that way to the new connection to the C, and then given the space to West End, instead of a shuttle
Dear Eric:
On weekends, not many people use the subways as they do on week-
days, why does the B bypass bypass DeKalb Avenue? I remember in the
past, the B stops at DeKalb Avenue during evenings and weekends. Will
they ever make the B stop at DeKalb Avenue during evenings and week-
ends? Will the B run to Queens Blvd on the weekends when the 63rd
Street connection opens in August 2001?
James Li
People at DeKalb for Bridge service have the D, and the 4th Av exp. tracks feed into the bypass, so why not let it bypass? Less switching that way. The only reason the N stopped there on weekends when it was on the bridge was because there was no Q.
I'm not sure what they'll do on weekends on 63rd St.) I've always wondered myself!) What I've heard someone suggest here not too long ago was the V to 2nd Av, and the B go uptown. If it's the Q, others hope for it to run to Brighton Beach, but that would probably be cut to 2nd Av as well.
When the 6th Ave side was closed long term, the D/Q terminated at 57/7. Then and in future closings, it would make no sense to have 21/Queensbridge thru service via the BMT Broadway line when the 6th Ave. side of the M'h'n br. is closed to trains so all IND stations could be served. Grand St. was (remember the R27/30 flat wheels shuttle?) and still can be served as the south terminal in single track operation from north of Bway Lafayette to 21/Queensbridge and eventually beyond when the extension opens. By this operation, 57/6 can be served by that route. If you have the bridge closure after the extension is opened, you can run it as described above, or terminate it at Second Ave. or WTC and have the shuttle operating between Bway/Laf. & Grand.
TYPO: The single track operation takes place from north of Broadway Lafayette to Grand St. station.
Dear Bill:
If they terminated the D and Q at 57th Street-7th Avenue, the R
from Queens may then become overcrowded. Mr. Peter Dougherty said that
they need as least one 63rd Street Service via 6th Avenue and another
via Broadway to releif overcrowdings on the E, F and R trains. Without
the Broadway Express service via Queens Blvd and 63rd Street, the R
will start to jam up and by 2005-2010, it could have the same problem
like the E and F. Why not extending the D and Q to Queens Blvd via
63rd Street to relief overcrowding on the E, F and R altogether. I
think this will add 33% more Manhattan service to the lines. The 63rd
Street Connection project is supposed to add 33% more subway service
and extra lines to relief overcrowdings on the E, F and R lines. Be-
cause the G will be cut back to Court Square 24 hours a day by then.
James Li
You want the D/Q on Queens Blvd. with the Sixth Ave. side closed, but you can't have the D there when it is open! The D/Q would be express via bridge, the R would be local via tunnel. It would be crazy to have 5 services on Queens Blvd. If one track is out for any reason, how can you operate a railroad with 5 services on 1 track? As it is, you can't fit any more trains on the express track since it is saturated during the rush with the E/F. And James, PLEASE dispense with the addressing of Dear Sir/Madam or one individual. It is beginning to drive me nuts!!!!!! I consider this site a group discussion group. Personal conversations to/from individuals are best done via E Mail. Thanks!
When the 6th Av side of the Bridge is closed and the Broadway side open, the do have 5 services on Broadway: the current N & R local, plus the 3 expresses shifted over on the bridge. In fact, this was basically the way it was since 1920, except that the N was express and one of the Brighton trains local. And the express tracks now feed directly into the 63rd St tunnel, so they could use that instead of 6th Av.
I was just reading an article in the Queens Chronicle last night ("Tunnel to Somewhere"), and it said 15 trains would be added, and then it said something about adding 8 on the express and 7 on the local. (and this is with the G replaced), so you could have the 2 Broadway services, but I don't know if they would do it.
The thrust of my point was how much service there is already on the E & F. Look at the timetables on the MTA website. You will find each line operates on a 4 to 5 minute headway in the rush. That is at least 2 trains every 5 minutes. I doubt is any 2 pre Chrystie St. routes had such a tight headway.
The Pre-Chrystie Broadway Express service was approximately every 2 minutes, divided between three lines. The Montague Street tunnel hosted similar headways.
The Dual Contracts specified 90 second headways, but I doubt that would possible now with current train lengths and current operating rules.
The Flushing Line has operated with less than two minutes headways, and I believe there have been others.
Some Manhattan els had less than two minute headways in the direction opposite that of rush hour traffic, but that was line-of-sight operation.
I don't know whether it was pre-Chrystie or post-Christie, but at one time both the E and F were on 4 minute headways, which meant 2 minute combined headways. I think at this same time, the E ran express on 8th Avenue and the A had 4 minute headways, so you also had 2 minute combined headways with the A and E on the 8th Avenue express tracks.
The only time the E ever ran express in Manhattan, to my knowledge, was during rush hours when it continued on to Brooklyn. Such short headways are typical during rush hours, so that would make sense.
Didn't the E run to Jay St. at one time? If so, it could have operated as an express in Manhattan then.
I have a mylar route sign (pre GOH R-46 style I believe, but I'm not sure) that has the E running via 8th Ave. express from 179 Street to Far Rock. The strip maps only indcates the express stations on 8th Avenue.
I think Steve B is at least partially correct. The E ran express on 8th Avenue when it ran to Euclid Avenue and beyond via Fulton St - Brooklyn, which was only in the rush hours. At other times its southern terminal was Hudson Terminal (today's World Trade Center). However, I don't remember whether it ran local or express on 8th Avenue when it went to Hudson Terminal. My guess would be it ran local.
You are correct.The E-train run express down 8th ave in rush hours to
Euclid,Lefferts,Far Rockaway and Rockway Park . During that same time period also used lower level of 42nd street. Non rush hours run local to World Trade using upper level of 42nd street.When train went to Euclid and beyond, it run at one time express in Bklyn than became the local while the A ran express.I rode some of these trains while living in area.
E trains also terminated at Broadway-Lafayette for a time. Some, if not all, R-1/9s had E/8th Ave.-Houston signs to reflect this service. I believe Shore Line's 1689 has these signs; none of my IND roller curtains do.
I remember posters being displayed at 42nd St. when southbound rush hour E trains began using the lower level. This would have been around 1969 or 1970. Back in 1968, I saw a southbound E train of R-38s on the express track at 42nd St. It marked the first time I had ever seen the R-38s. I thought, where did those cars come from? That was the very same day I used the underpass for the first time. After we got to the uptown platform, we boarded a CC train for the Museum of Natural History, and at the same time, a Queens-bound E train of R-1/9s left 42nd St. on the express track. We ran neck-and-neck with the E train, and saw it descend to 50th St. as our train continued northbound.
The rule-of-thumb was this: all Brooklyn-bound rush hour E trains ran express in Manhattan, while trains terminating at Hudson Terminal or Broadway-Lafayette ran local. Over the years, express service in Brooklyn flip-flopped between the A and E.
Steve - I think I'm confused. Are you saying that some E trains ran down 6th Avenue to B'Way Lafayette? Was there another way to reach B'Way Lafayette? Did they somehow make that transition at W. 4th Street?
FWIW - I do remember F trains terminating at B'Way Lafayette - but not E trains.
I believe the E's did run to Broadway-LaFayette even though they ran via 8th Avenue local, with the switch being made just south of West 4th Street. This was definitely prior to the beginning of IND-Culver service, and probably even several years before that. (When IND-Culver service began, the D was extended to Coney Island and the F cut back to Broadway-LaFayette or 34th Street/6th Avenue, depending on time of day or day of week.) It could even go as far back as 1940, prior to the opening of the 6th Avenue local subway, but I'm not sure.
8th Ave. locals can switch over to the 6th Ave. local tracks south of W. 4th St. and vice versa. This is done if B and/or D trains have to be rerouted along 8th Ave. If D trains are rerouted, they are switched over to the local track north of 59th St. There are no other crossover switches along 8th Ave. until Canal St.
If I remember corrctly,
In 1967...During the Rush Hours, the E ran from 179th Street to either Euclid, Lefferts Blvd, Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park and ran express in Manhattan and Brooklyn. In 1968, it stayed the same except E trains did not go to Lefferts Blvd. During Non-Rush Hours, the E ran from 179th Street to Chambers Street-Hudson Terminal (now World Trade Center) and ran local in Manhattan.
Dear Eric:
I remember in 1987-1988, when the B ran to Astoria during the
weekdayd hours, why did it STOP at 49th Street-7th Avenue. But when
the B terminated at 57th Street-7th Avenue, the B SKIPPED 49th Street-
7th Avenue.
James Li
Switching considerations have Astoria-bound expresses switching to the local track between 34th and 42nd. That is why they make 49th Street.
The Brighton Express did the same when it operated to Astoria.
Dear Eric:
When the Broadway Services go into effect, what subway cars will
run on the B, D, N, Q and R lines? Will there be any more subway car
switching like the subway car switching on the B and Q in November
1997? Will the new R-143s run on these lines when this Broadway
service goes into effect? In what year and month will this Broadway
service take effect?
James Li
James,
Just a reminder! The majority of us who contribute to this Web site are subway fans, not employees of the system. We can only speculate (and dream!). It also turns out that one of the NYCT employees who visits this site on occasion revealed to us that plans for use of the 63rd Street tunnel and associated Broadway/6th Avenue/Queens Blvd lines are not finalized.
So continually asking individuals about service changes may get you our opinions (or desires!) but it won't get you established facts. It's terrific when our NYCT friends do share information with us about future service plans, but it's rare because many decisions have yet to be made.
Detailed questions of this matter are often unnoticed by the TA workers as well. Car assignments usually are provided no more than a month in advance of the pick change subject to change by a general order. Any rumors I hear from supervision is just that until I see the timetables. I heard a rumor three years ago from both a superintendant and a T/O that the D line was going to get R-40 and R-42 cars again. Similarly you can't place a car on a line when it hasn't been delivered yet. The line's timetable gives all this information such as car types used, minimum and maximum train lengths. You will just have to wait like everyone else.
It is pretty well known that the new cars are for the L, and if they get enough, may spill over to the M. The assignments for the Broadway service are generally the same as any other time, except that the B & D are cut in half, so one half will have the 68's and the other the 68A's. Unless of course, there is some major switch between now and then.
As for the dates, I hear 2001 or 2003.
Dear Bill:
They can run the Queens Blvd Line as follows ONLY when the 6th
Avenue side of the Manhattan Bridge is closed, the Broadway side is
opened and the 63rd Street Connection opens:
(B) BROADWAY-WEST END EXPRESS VIA BRIDGE
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn (Weekdays 6am-9:30pm)
(B) QUEENS BLVD-BROADWAY-WEST END EXPRESS VIA BRIDGE
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn (Weekdays 9:30pm-12am, weekends, only when
the Q is NOT running.)
(D) QUEENS BLVD-BROADWAY EXPRESS/ BRIGHTON LOCAL VIA BRIDGE OR TUNNEL
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn (All Times, via Tunnel 6am-9:30pm and via
Bridge all other times.)
(E) QUEENS BLVD EXPRESS/ 8TH AVENUE LOCAL
Jamaica Center/ Parsons-Archer, Queens
World Trade Center, Manhattan
(F) QUEENS BLVD-6TH AVENUE-CULVER LOCAL
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn (All Times)
(G) BROOKLYN-QUEENS CROSSTOWN LOCAL
Court Square, Queens
Smith-9th Streets, Brooklyn OR Church Avenue, Brooklyn.
(All Times, extended to Church Avenue rush hours ONLY.)
(N) BROADWAY-SEA BEACH EXPRESS VIA BRIDGE OR TUNNEL
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn (All Times, local in Brooklyn evenings,
nights and weekends. Local in Manhattan and via Tunnel 12am-6am.)
(Q) QUEENS BLVD-BROADWAY-BRIGHTON EXPRESS VIA BRIDGE
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens
Brighton Beach, Brooklyn (Weekdays 6am-9:30pm)
(R) QUEENS BLVD-BROADWAY-4TH AVENUE LOCAL VIA TUNNEL
71st-Continental Avenues/ Forest Hills, Queens
95th Street-4th Avenue/ Fort Hamilton, Brooklyn (All Times.)
They can run the F and R local in Queens and run the D and Q express
in Queens on weekdays 6am-9:30pm and run the B express in Queens
ONLY when the Q is NOT running, because the G will be cut back to
terminate at Court Square 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They can
also restore the N express on Broadway and have the D replace the
N via tunnel from Canal Street to DeKalb Avenue ONLY on weekdays
6am-8pm, when the Q is running.
James Li
Wow three expresses ummmmmmmm..........
Much of this thread has been written by those with more detailed knowledge than I, but I do get one idea -- 50 years ago it was possible to operate more trains, at higher speeds, on a stretch of track than it is today.
Lets think about this. Is there any other business where operational efficiency has gone down? Does the phone system carry fewer calls? Do cars get fewer miles to a gallon.
Nope, just about everything is better, cheaper, or both (well, the law isn't better and health care housing and higher education are better but not cheaper, but just about everything else).
Is the infrastructure worse? Is it a fail-safe mentality? What happened?
[why the train-carrying capacity of a subway track has declined]
I'd attribute it to a fail-safe mentality. Eliminating the key-by option has had a big effect. If the subway system had modernized its signals, things would be better today, but naturally very little has been accomplished.
We can speculate forever on how this will be done, but the bottom line is we will find out what it is going to be whenever the run books from which the motormen & conductors pick from are published. Suggest your service plan directly to Operations/ Planning at 130 Livingston St. I give you a lot of credit in that your plan is well thought out. Keep in mind whatever service plan is adopted, it must provide maximum productivity/cab time for the workers otherwise the TA will never go along with it! I have a problem with the D: Lets say someone is on an E from WTC going toward Queens. It would be confusing for someone to transfer to the Ds at 7Ave/53 St. for a D to the Bronx and for someone else to transfer to a D somewhere in Queens to a D to 179 St. I think one of the lines need a different letter!
It would definitely be changed to W, if it were extended to Queens. I've been saying they should change it even when it goes to 57th. (The B would become T).
What will happen to the CPW local service?
That would be covered by the B Train running north from 2nd Av.
The problem is, the B division has a car shortage that won't be remedied by the R142s. If you have one set of trains running from the north and east through Manhattan on 6th Ave, and another set of trains running from the south (Brooklyn) and through Manhattan on Broadway, there will be an overlap were there is now through service. There will not be enough trains.
I don't really have a solution for this. Should have built the damn DeKalb to Rutgers tunnel connection.
Dear Sir/Madam:
I would like to know how the IND Lines operated in 1932-1960?
What were the terminals for the following lines in 1932-1960?:
(A) 8th Avenue-Washington Heights Express
(AA)8th Avenue-Washington Heights Local
(BB)6th Avenue-Washington Heights Local
(CC)8th Avenue-Concourse Local
(D) 6th Avenue-Concourse Express
(E) 8th Avenue-Queens Express
(F) 6th Avenue-Queens Express
(GG)Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Local
(HH)Shuttle
James Li
This is all documented elsewhere on the site, look at the FAQ under Route Color/Names - What's the History of the Letters & Numbers?
-Dave
p.s. is there a particular Sir or Madam you always address your posts to? If so, why? You are aware hopefully that this is not an official site and there isn't a single person assigned to answer inquiries...
James: That's quite a tall order but I do have the information that you are looking for. Why don't you e-mail me at RedbirdR33 @ hotmail and well talk about getting the info to you.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I might be wrong, but:
(A) 8th Avenue-Washington Heights Express
1932-33: 207 Street to Hudson Terminal (WTC) express normally, local nights
1933-36: From 207 to HT, Local
1936-40: 207-Rockway Ave, Local (Rutgers or Cranberry?)
1940-42: 207-Rockaway Ave Express in Manhattan not nights, local in Brooklyn.
1942-1948: As above, extended to B'way-ENY
1948-1956: Extended to Euclid
1956-1976: Extended to Rockaways, I don't know how.
(AA)8th Avenue-Washington Heights Local
1932-33: 168-HT, Local no night sevice
1933-40: No service at all
1940-85: As in 1932, but no Rush Hour service either
(BB)6th Avenue-Washington Heights Local
1940-67: 2 Ave-168, Local Rush Hours
(CC)8th Avenue-Concourse Local
1933-1940: Went Express in Manhattan, Local in Bx from HT-205 (or Bedford Park?)
1940-76: Local, Rush Hours only, BPB-HT
(D) 6th Avenue-Concourse Express
1940-1954: Church Avenue (modern F) to 205, no express was possible on 6th, Express on CPW and in peak direction on Concourse.
1954-67: Extended to CI in Brooklyn via BMT Culver
(E) 8th Avenue-Queens Express
1933-36: Roosevelt Ave-Church Avenue, Express in Queens and Manhattan.
1936-37: Did it switch to Rutgers Tunnel?
1937-40: Extended to Union Turnpike and then 169, I don't know exactly when. Went local after 71/Continental.
1940-53: Rerouted via Cranberry Tunnel, and to Fulton Line Express along with all of it's extensions
1953-56: extended to 179
1956-76: Rockaways
(F) 6th Avenue-Queens Express
1940-53: From 2 Ave-169 via Manhattan Local, Queens Express
1953-67: Extended to 179
(GG)Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Local
1933-1968: Ran Local from Roosevelt Avenue, then 71, to wherever the Crosstown ended, then to Smith/9. I don't have details.
(HH)Shuttle
1936-46: Court Street (modern Transit Museum)-Hoyt/Schermerhorn
Please respond with corrections and additons, I want to know too!
The GG terminated at Nassau Ave for the first 2 years the Queens Blvd Line operated, starting at Roosevelt Ave (1936-38?)
The GG terminated at Nassau Ave for the first 2 years the Queens Blvd Line operated, starting at Roosevelt Ave (1936-38?) The E ran along the Houston Street line from West 4th St. to Church Ave. from the year it opened (1933?) until the 6th Ave line opened in 1940.
The E went to Rockaway Park only in rush hours, running local in Brooklyn. All other times it terminated (as always) at Hudson Terminal/WTC..
When I first started being a fan, I can remember the BB, when it ran, running only to 34-6.
The F, before Chrystie, ran to Bway-Lafayette normally, and 34-6 nights.
I believe that the 6Av express opened before Chrystie and so you saw some services run as far as W4 before turning around.
Question before the floor: Before the 6Av Express tracks, what did expresses such as the D do? Switch over to local tracks after 34-6?
Just a nit here about the F - I recall it running to 2nd Ave/Houston prior to the change when it began terminating at Broadway Lafayette. But I'm getting older now and so I'll just say that was my impression.
The F was extended to 2 Av from Bway Lafayette on July 11,1966 for about a one month period. Trains ran via the local tracks between West 4 St and 2 Av and terminated on the express tracks at 2 Av. This allowed work on the express tracks for the connection to Chrystie St.
Larry,RedbirdR33
< Before the 6Av Express tracks, what did expresses such as the D do? Switch over to local tracks after 34-6? >
Yes, switched, I believe between 42nd & 34th Streets.
As you may be aware, the Hudson Tubes tracks are between the 6th Ave. local tracks. The City had some right of recapture or condemnation over these tracks, and for quite a while there was some fantasy that these might become the 6th Avenue Express tracks.
Even the City must have realized how impractical this was, given the narrow profiles of the Tubes, and became sensible enough to build the current "deep" express tracks.
The H&M tunnels were built to IRT clearances, and the cost of retrofitting them to IND/BMT specs would have been prohibitive.
BTW, did you ever notice all the switches between 34th and 42nd Sts? There are even TWO sets of scissor switches between the express tracks. It opens up possibilities for all sorts of train maneuvers. Some of those switches are redundant now, IMHO, I'm sure they got much more usage before the express tracks were completed.
Dear Sir/Madam:
Before the Chrystie Street Connection merged the IND and BMT
divisions, what did the track arrangement of the IND 6th Avenue Line
south of 34th Street-6th Avenue look like? Were there any middle
tracks on the 6th Avenue line at Broadway-Lafayatte Street?
Which tracks did the N, Q RR and T use to terminate at 57th
Street-7th Avenue? Did the express tracks north of 57th Street
exist before the 63rd Street Tunnel opened?
James Li
Before Chrystie Street connection was opened in 1967, there were no 6th Avenue express tracks between 34th Street and West 4th Street. As a matter of fact, those express tracks did not open until about a year after Chrystie did. There were always express tracks at Broadway-LaFayettea. I believe that, prior to Chrystie, they continued east to Second Avenue Station. Frankly, I don't remember whether the Broadway Expresses that terminated at 57th Street turned back right at the station, or turned back just north of it. I don't know how far north the express tracks went prior to 63rd Street, but I suspect not very far.
When Chrystie St. opened in Nov, 1967, the express tracks between W. 4 St and 34 St were used during rush hours. Until the 57th St. terminal opened about 9 mos. later, midday B trains terminated at W. 4 St., and the D and F trains used the local tracks during non-rush hours.
The trains terminating at 57 St station on the Broadway line used crossover switches south of the station. Normally, Brighton trains were spotted on the west (brooklyn-bound) express track, and Sea Beach trains on the east (queens-bound) express track. In fact, the signs over the stairways in the mezzanines said "Downtown" for the stairs leading to the west platform, and "Uptown and Downtown" for the stairs leasding to the east platform.
-- Ed Sachs
Sorry, I think you are wrong. The IND Timeline on this site bears me out - the express tracks between W. 4th Street and 34th Street did not open until 7/1/68, a little less than a year after the Chrystie St connector opened.
Ed is right. The Sixth Avenue Express tracks did open with the Chrystie Street Connection in November but were only used for rush hour service at first, when 57/6 Av opened on July 1,1968 the express tracks saw full time service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I stand corrected. Dave should correct the info on the Timeline.
How did the RR turn on weekends. You had 3 services terminating at 57th at that time: the T and N (expresses), and the RR (local; cut back from 71st)
The RR never terminated at 57th St or went to 71st st. The RR always went to Ditmars Blvd, and in 1987, the renamed RR (R) was switched to 71st. The EE ran along B'way/Queens Blvd (from Whitehall St.) weekdays from 1954, theyear te ND/BMT connecion opened and was replaced by the N from 1976-87. When The T ran on the weekends it did go to 57/7th and shared the terminal with the N. I'm not sure where Brighton line trains(QB?) terminated. An educated guess would be Queensboro Plaza.
The RR certainly did go to 71st St. in the pre-Chrystie St. era. I remember first seeing it in 1965. I thought it was odd that a subway train would be called "RR", which seemed to stand for "railroad". I know it didn't run to Queens Blvd. on weekends, where it terminated then I don't know. Perhaps it ran to Queensboro Plaza on the weekend? The "EE" designation was introduced when Chrystie St. opened. EE trains consisted of reconditioned R-1/9 type cars with plastic seats, while the RR that it replaced had consisted of later fluorescent-lit R-type trains (R-27 and R-30 ?).
Once again, I humbly apologize for some false info.
Chris: I seem to recall a few days ago I said that the Broadway Line express tracks run down to the City Hall lower level,they do but only from Canal Street south. There is no connection from above Canal Street as those tracks go over the bridge. Larry was good enough to remind me of this.
Most of what you said was correct but it would be well to remember that the time period we are speaking of is quite long;even the post Chrystie Street period is already 32 years old. If you look back over the whole history of the routes and services you'll find that there are very few routes that actually stayed the same.
The 14 Stret Line used to be served by two routes north of east New York (#13 and #16) and two routes south of east New York (#14 and #16)
Post Chrystie St we had four routes over the Willy B (JJ,M,QJ,RJ) and five routes on Broadway (EE,N,NX,QB,RR).
If you do refer to a particular service it would be well to reference it to a specific time frame (say 1967-69 or the last five years,etc) and if your not 100% certain say "I believe or I think".
Thats a trick some of us older hands use when our memories are a little bit foggy,it leaves you some wiggle room.
Best wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I have to rely on this website for info about the system before the 70's. If you're right (and you probably are) then this website contains some errors which need to be fixed.
Perhaps you can answer a question that bugs me: Why was there a center, express track built on the G at Bedford/Nostrand? Observations from riding past on a train shows this track decends to a lower level north of the station. I have no clue as to where it goes
I think it had something to do with the South Fourth Street station, and the lines that were to branch from it: check out the IND Second System in the Builing the Subway section of the site.
The middle track at Bedford-Nostrand was put in as part of a planned extension along Lafayette Ave. It would have split into two tracks, which it does now, then at Stanhope St. , it would have turned slightly to the left and joined with the Myrtle-Central Ave. line from S. 4th St., forming a four-track line. This was one of several IND Phase 2 lines which never got past the drawing board.
> If you're right (and you probably are) then this website contains
> some errors which need to be fixed.
Of course it does. We're not professional researchers or historians and don't claim to be. This isn't even anyone's full time job. If you have corrections it's best to send them to me in email or feedback because I don't always pick up on them here. Letting me know the URL of the page in error is helpful as well.
As for this particular error (6th Ave. services before Chrystie), each new post contains a new correction. If someone cares to summarize it then send it along I'd be glad to fix it where it's broken.
-Dave
Considering the wealth of information this website has that is not obtainable anywhere else, Im sure we can all live with a few very minor errors. I for one love this site and visit it more than any other one out there.
In addition to R1-9 cars on the EE, you would also find some R16s set up for the EE.
Chris: This question was a little bit before your time. Prior to the openning of Chrystie Street Line the #2(RR) did indeed terminate at 57 St/7Av M-F 12 mid-7a,7p-12mid and all day Sat and Sun. It only started going to Astoria with the openning of the Chrystie Street Line. The first RR to go to Astoria was in the early morning hours of Sunday Nov 26,1967 which I was on.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So back to my question, how did it terminate there with the N and T? That's probably the only instance of three services terminating at a 2 track terminal. Or were the local stub tracks north of the station connected then?
Scratch that last one. After returning to the index, I saw where you answered this, already.
Chris; The 60 Street Connection to the IND opened in 1955. Service was provided by #1 Brighton Locals until 1/1/60 when #2 Fourth Avenue Locals took over the service until 11/24/67.These were also called RR's after 1962. Effective 11/27/67 the EE Queens-Broadway Local began service between Forest Hills and Whitehall Street. This lasted until 8/76 when the EE was discontined and replaced by the N Broadway Local. This lasted until 5/87 when the Fourth Av trains returned to Forest Hills only now they were called the R train.
Pre-Chrystie St Brighton service was BMT #1(Q) 57- Brighton Bch M-F 6a-7p, BMT#1(QB) Astoria-Coney via bridge all times except M-F 6a-7p, BMT #1 (QT) Astoria-Coney iva tunnel M-F 6a-7p. Some rush hour #1 (QT) put-ins/pull-outs did terminate at Queensboro Plaza.
Thanks for the correct info. Anything pre-1967 is before my time and I have to rely on info at www.nycsubway.org for that kind of stuff.
Eric: On Pre-Chrystie St Saturdays three services terminated at 57 St as you said. I believe that switching was done south of the station with terminating trains using the two express tracks to change ends.
I believe that #4(N) used the ntbd exp while #2(RR) and #3 (T) shared the stbd exp but I can't be 100 % certain on that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Prior to Chrystie Street the Sixth Av Express tracks extended about 140 feet south of the 34 Street platform though the tunnels extended another 260 feet beyond that.
The express tracks started again north of West 4 Street and continued through to 2 Avenue.
It seems as though you have a great interest in the history of the subway system. You might want to consider contacting the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders Association as their "Bulletins" are a goldmine of information about the subway.
Larry,RedBirdR33
As for relaying trains north of 57/7 Av the express tracks were long enough to hold six car trains of B types. An eight car train of B types if laid up here would foul the crossover north of 57 St.
Is it just me or was subway service at one time less crowded and more frequent? I recently started taking the B train from Sunset Park to Manhattan. It's driving me insane, even though the trains are scheduled for arrival 8-10 minutes apart, they show up 15-20 minutes apart and are incredibly overcrowded. Today I not only experienced sexual harrassment from the man standing behind me (crowded trains are an excellent place for lewd types to rub against women) but also was physically threatened by a pregnant lady because i was lodged between 4 people and couldn't move out of her way so that she could disembark the train. This type of rail rage is apparent daily on the B line and it is really affecting me. Many crowding problems would be solved if there were more express service on the B or if the N would go express through lower manhattan allowing people the option of riding either train express from Brooklyn to Midtown. I'm considering a suit against the MTA if I continue to be sexually and physically harmed or harrassed on this line. They really need to do something about overcrowding, slow trains and the spillover affects of these issues, which aren't even specific to this particular line.
Welcome to reality. The published headways are meaningless under actaul daily conditions, although 15 - 20 minutes sounds like there was a specific problem delaying service. As for the behavior of your fellow passengers - get used to it. That is how the lower class behaves today. Who did you think you were going to deal with riding a line that starts in Coney Island, goes thru Bath Beach, Bensonhurst, Boro Park, Sunset Park and the poor end of Park Slope?
As for suing the MTA regarding your disturbing 'rubbing' experience, good luck to you, but what are you going to sue the MTA for - letting lunatics, gropers and droolers on the subway? How can the MTA be held responsible for the unpleasant actions of it's customers?
Now, wait a second. I take exception to your proclaiming of residents of Southwestern Brooklyn as "Lower-class". Who the hell are you to make such a statement? Granted, crowding can make some passengers behave in a less-than-exemplary way, but as a Bath Beach resident (and B train rider), I must say that I'm quite insulted by your statement. Why don't you just take the express bus if you don't want to deal with us low-lifes???
I do use the Express bus to get to and from work, and also use the subway in Manhattan on a daily basis. The subways are filled with lower (economic) class riders. Lower class does not mean 'lowlife', it means working people at the bottom of the middle class, that's all. It's a level of income that generally correlates to a certain kind of poor behavior. The lowlifes don't even have jobs, so you won't see them on rush hour trains. The LIRR is getting worse because of the Queens lower class moving east. The MNRR is the most civiled rail line in terms of passenger behavior because it serves pricy towns in Westchester and Putnam counties.
Hmmmm, seems to me that you think that people with more money act better than those who have less. looks like class bigotry to me.
You know, sometimes you have to realize that reality is not an equal opportunity employer. People on the lower end of the economic ladder are more likely to misbehave. I know I'm going to get shot for saying this, but minorites tend to occupy the lower ends. Minority is more of a term for minority of income, not population.
Sure, income, not race. How stupid do you think people are? I know some very well behaved "minorities" (of both income and race) and some not-so-well behaved middle-upper class white people. Your statement is way to generalized, even if you actually do mean minority of "income" (which I don't believe anyway)
I do know it's generalized. But people on lower ends tend to act in a way that people consider to be lower class. That doesn't mean that there isn't the working class, which are well behaved etc. And of course, you have the annoying rich snobs.
I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but what you're saying sounds like a dig on people of poor backgrounds. While to an extent I agree that an amount of money tends to change one's behavior (though more and more often it's not always for the better), it doesn't make them any more righteous or "civilized"(whatever definition you attach to that term). You'll find that people of poor backgrounds also have strong family units(like everyone else) and work hard for their communities.
You never hear much about people from "pricey areas" cleaning neighborhoods, painting murals or involved in activism unless it's their job or the latest "cause".
Be very careful what you say about other people. I don't live in Putnam County, I don't ride a long-distance commuter train to school and my block isn't surrounded by a fence. Would you call me "lower class"?
[The LIRR is getting worse because of the Queens lower class moving east. The MNRR is the most civiled rail line in terms of passenger behavior because it serves pricy towns in Westchester and Putnam counties.]
I can't quite agree with either generalization. With respect to the LIRR, this is the first time I've heard that the "Queens lower class" is moving into Nassau and Suffolk counties. Housing prices and real estate taxes in both counties are high enough to effectively exclude the lower and not-so-lower classes. There are pockets of poverty in both counties, generally not attributable to recent migration from Queens, but to the best of my knowledge the residents do not commute to NYC on the LIRR (there is some intra-Island commuting, but not in sufficient volume to affect the "character" of the trains). Given the high cost of LIRR tickets, even monthlies, I'd say that anyone commuting to the city is almost by definition middle class. Finally, in my experience the most obnoxious LIRR riders tend to be the upscale, suit-wearing types who commute from Ronkonkoma!
I've commuted on Metro-North from 1994 to 1997, before switching to the LIRR, and I truly can't say that I've noticed any real behavoir differences between the riders. Most people keep to themselves, some socialize, and you have a few schmucks. In any event, by no means all of the communities served by Metro North are upscale, far from it!
So, can I use this statement as NYCTransit comes closer to contract talks. I grew up in Bensonhurst (and only left to buy a house in Staten Island, because I couldn't AFFORD one in Brooklyn) and I still ride the subways all the time -- even when I'm not working on them. I don't think the behvior of any of these people are 'poor'. They are just venting frustration at the nearest available object; if you're appalled by the way they treat each other, you should see the way they treat the people moving them around.
I think this discussion has slightly gotten off subject, but it is relevant that the lower-income the population, the more crowded the trains. I used to take the 4 train from Crown Heights, Brooklyn, which is an incredibly impoverished immigrant neighborhood and experienced crowding far worse than the "B" and at all hours of the day and night. However, I would say with the exception of the high number of homeless campers on that train, the behavior of the riders was far better than what I've experienced on the "B" train. And I'm sure that they are a much lower economic class than the west side of South Brooklyn. What is important to recognize though, is that even though there is a higher ridership on these trains, the city has refused to acknowledge it and alleviate it, and it's most likely yet another form of de-facto segregation we have going on here. It's the same as the public school system in the city.
BTW, I would say a major percentage of subway riders are solidly middle class. I wouldn't misjudge and lump them into "lower class". Myself for instance, I make a good salary and even own a car, but would never opt to deal with the nightmare of rushour traffic to get to work. I am grateful that other middle and upper class folks take the train. We certainly don't need any more livery cabs or yellow cabs on the streets. Plus, the man sexually harrassing me on the train the other day was in a nice tie and Armani glasses.
Also, India is a fine example of a messed up transit system. They keep the poor people off the trains by charging higher costs for a ride. Supposedly they have a very nice subway system there. This at times doesn't sound like a bad idea and is certainly what makes the distinction between city riders and suburban commuters here in NYC ($180/monthlies for LIRR from Suffolk Co.). But we have to appreciate the fact that the subway is a means of transportation available to all and it's riders display a wide spectrum of financial backgrounds. It's vital to work on the subways flaws regardless of how moneyed the neighborhood it runs through is.
[I think this discussion has slightly gotten off subject, but it is relevant that the lower-income the population, the more crowded the trains ... What is important to recognize though, is that even though there is a higher ridership on these trains, the city has refused to acknowledge it and alleviate it, and it's most likely yet another form of de-facto segregation we have going on here. It's the same as the public school system in the city.
BTW, I would say a major percentage of subway riders are solidly middle class. I wouldn't misjudge and lump them into "lower class".]
I'd caution against making any broad generalizations about subway ridership and income. In particular, at least with respect to rush-hour trains, it is not necessarily true that ridership rises as income falls. As has been pointed out here before, the poorest of the city's neighborhoods generate relatively little rush hour traffic for the simple reason that many residents are on welfare or otherwise not participating in the labor force. While this is getting into somewhat touchy terrain, there is a tendency on the part of many people - you may very well not be among them, please don't misunderstand - to assume that largely minority neighborhoods invariably are poor (a notion that the Times takes for granted). Of course, this is by no means always the case. Your (snipped) example of the 4 train from Crown Heights is a good example. Crown Heights may be a minority area, but as far as I know it is not a poor area. Most of its residents are working people and jam onto rush hour trains.
As far as the other end of the economic spectrum is concerned, there might be some dropoff in subway ridership, but only at the extreme end. It was pointed out to me recently that the high-income big shots living on Fifth and Park avenues on the Upper East Side generally use taxis and limousines rather than the subway. While that may be true, I somehow expect that the rich-but-not-filthy-rich are as likely to take the subway, at least during rush hour, as anyone else. I'd sure be interested in knowing whether the residents of Central Park West, as wealthy and big-shotty as their Upper East Side brethern, are more likely to ride the subway simply because they have more convenient service.
I'll offer an observation about CPW residents and the subway - strictly an observation, based as it is on a sample of two families, both in the rich-but-not-always-flaunting-it category, both families consisting of a mother (one an artist, the other a part-time director of a charitable organization), a father (both anesthetists, as it happens), and a daughter in college (both friends of my younger daughter). One family lives right by the northern exit of the 81st street station, the other around 90th street. Both fathers ride the subway on occasion, although never to and from work, as their normal work day begins around 5:30 - 6 AM (first surgery at 7 AM). The artist mother (who lives right by the subway entrance) claims to have never ridden the subway in her life - fear of crime, she says - although she is a native of Manhattan. She will ride the bus, however, but prefers either a cab or her Mercedes. Her daughter rode for the first time and probably only time with my daughter (who doesn't know the system and isn't particularly fond of it either). The other mother and daughter ride regularly - to work, to shop, to JFK via Howard Beach - and find it to be a cost-effective way of getting around. They too have cars but use them primarily when they travel to their Connecticut vacation home. They enjoy people-watching as much as they do the convenience of not having to park their cars.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll add to Anon_e_mouse's observations with a few of my own. My comments are based on observations made during my daily two block walk to the subway or bus stop.
I live just off CPW in the 80's -- that probably puts me into the rich but not filthy rich bracket. I take the subway or bus daily. Most of my side street neighbors do the same, unless they work in the neighborhood and walk. I am probably in the minority among my neighbors in that I use the subway weekends and late night. Most use taxis during that time. If being on an abandoned subway platform scares you, then the three stations in the wealthiest part of the upper west side (72nd, 81st and 86th Streets along CPW) are among the most frightening in the city after 10PM.
Those who actually live on CPW fall into two groups (I'll call them the filthy rich bracket -- FR's -- and the enormously wealthy bracket -- EW's).
The EW's transportation patterns are easy. They are chauffered everywhere. They don't work -- at least not "businessman's hours" -- so the subway is nothing more than a rumbling under their feet.
The FR's are a bit more interesting bunch. Many ride the subway during rush hours, probably because it is the quickest way to get around. But non rush hours are a different story. Having lived there for about 2 years, I can count on my fingers the number of times I've noticed someone going from the subway to a building on CPW either after 8PM or on a weekend.
FR's appear perfectly willing to take the bus at any time of day.
To follow up on one of Peter's original questions, the FR's who live on CPW do make more use of the subway than their east side brethren. When I lived over on the East Side, the FR's living on York and East End Avenues relied almost exclusively on taxi and van pools.
(Filthy Rich more likely to ride the subway on the West Side). Crowding at rush hours is intolerable on the East Side. As you stated, Manhattan FRs don't use the subway off peak they take cabs, just as FRs in the suburbs use commuter rail to get to work but drive elsewhere.
The Second Avenue subway would attract more FRs to the system, especially if all Bronx trains were routed via 2nd Avenue or the Lex Express, and the Lex Local was looped around at 125th St as a Manhattan Only service, as I suggested in prior posts. Crowding on the Lex may even be driving moderately rich people like CTG off the trains, forcing them to spend more to get around.
This is correct. I have operated A trains on CPW after midnight. Everyone on the train is only traveling through to Washington Heights, or to midtown, if I was heading south. I'd barely let the doors hit the pockets and we were on the move again. Ghost town.
If I may refer to Paul Fussell's 1982 book "Class", the people you call FRs could also be called upper middle-class (they do rely on work for most of their income, even though it is a very large income) and the EWs are upper-class (most of their income comes from investments or inheritance; if they work, it's purely for satisfaction). (Fussell has an even higher group, the top-out-of-sights, which would include families like the Rockefellers and the DuPonts.)
I would note that Manhattan may be the only place in the U.S. where buses have a higher status than rapid transit. As for the far East Side, the overcrowding on and long trip to the Lexington Ave. line limit the appeal of subway riding. A Second Avenue line would capture some of this market.
Taxis definitely put a dent in off-peak transit ridership for both buses and subways. Taxis are like private cars in the rest of the nation; most people who can afford them will use them, especially in off-peak hours. Improvements in off-peak headways or the return of trolleys might make a small but significant difference. However, there seems to be an understanding in New York that taxis, limos, and private cars should have unimpeded access everywhere. In other words, it is difficult to get more street space for pedestrians, bus lanes, or light rail.
(The book "class"). I read it also. Ironically, it what he would have called the middle class (ie. not the college-educated upper middle class) in the outer boroughs that is most opposed to the subway, since in their minds driving a car or riding an express bus distinguishes them from the working class, which in this city is mostly non-white/immigrant. Or so I'm told. To a union official, cop, fireman, or teacher, no perk is more desirable that a free parking space, especially in Manhattan.
Fussell's category of the middle-class (below the upper-middles) generally means people who have gone to colleges, although not the high status ones such as those found in the Ivy League. Teachers would be considered part of this "regular" middle-class. Cops and fireman would be in the high working-class, according to his definitions. Fussell says that the term "middle-class" is used rather loosely in the United States, and includes a lot of people who wouldn't be in his more narrow definition.
I think the image of the subway has improved somewhat from the darkest days of the 1970s. It seems that a fairly broad spectrum of people will use the subways. I think the lack of expansion into new areas has made the system less convenient than it could be, especially in the off-peak hours. It will be interesting to see how light rail is received in New Jersey as it is introduced into areas (like Bayonne) that haven't had rail transit in a long time. From what I've heard, Bayonne has become more enthusiastic as construction moves toward completion.
Interesting observations about social class and transit usage. I'm a bit surprised that the Filthy Rich (FR) are willing to ride the subway only during rush hours but will take the buses at any time. If it's social class that they're worried about, one would think that they would be more wary of buses - after all, buses are often percieved as somewhat more downscale than the subway (yes, even in NYC). Or could it be crime fears?
Anyway, today's Post had a gossip item regarding a celebrity and the subway. Seems that this actress named Rene Russo (I never heard of her, but the item seemed to imply that she's quite famous) found her limousine jammed in Times Square traffic when she was on her way to some engagement downtown. So she got out of the limousine and hopped on a downtown 9 train, arriving in time but having been the object of stares while riding the train. My suspicions rose a bit when I read that - would subway riders really have been impressed or surprised enough to gawk? I think not ...
I'd just like to clarify my description of those who will not ride the subway. They are white, grew up in New York City, and high school educated or public university educated -- what the author of that book would call middle class. They feel a need to distinguish themselves from minorities and immigrants. They will pay for express buses, parking, etc. They dream of that free parking space at work.
You find 'em in Staten Island, Dyker Heights, Eastern Queens, Maspeth, and parts of the East Bronx. These are the people who would fight new subways, because they might bring outsiders and ruin one of the few parts of NYC that, in their mind, is still good.
In my view, these folks are irrational. Living the suburban way in NYC is expensive and difficult compared with anyway else. If you aren't going to take advantage of the fact that things are accessible by transit or on foot, you'd be better off in New Jersey of Dutchess County. And, in the end, that's where these folks go. I am amazed at how many of our neighbors have two plus cars, despite the hassle of parking on the street. How could this possible be worth the cost? In general, these are people born and raised in Brooklyn.
We only use our car off peak for travel out of town. Whenever I try to use the car on a weekday to run an errand, I'm struck by just how horrible it is. All newcomers to Brooklyn have just one car, and use it like we do. For the filthy rich, living in Manhattan offers the walk/taxi experience. For the rest of us, living in the city offers the walk/subway and bus experience. If you choose to live here, that's why you live here. If you just happen to be here, perhaps you don't use the subway, but you'd be better off somewhere else.
Interesting observations. One thing that occurred to me is that in addition to the Archie Bunker types, tourists from other parts of the country make up another large group that tends to avoid the subway. Tourists probably have heard all the horror stories and by and large aren't used to mass transit. I'd suspect that foreign tourists are more likely to use the subway because they are more accustomed to transit.
I think that in NYC buses are prefered to subways by the snob element because of their perceived safety.
Most of the FR's I see taking buses from CPW are using the crosstowns (either the 79 or the 86). Often to take their children to their posh private schools on the Upper East Side. Nobody on CPW seems to take the north/south M10.
I wouldn't know Rene Russo if she slapped me in the head.
Rene Russo is mainly known for being in the most recent Lethal Weapons movies and also "In The Line of Fire" with Clint Eastwood. I would classify her as a second-tier star. A few people might recognize her if she were on the street or in the subway, but she wouldn't get the kind of attention that Eastwood or Mel Gibson would get.
Around York and East End Avenues you have pretty good access to the FDR, as opposed to the Lex Av subway. That would explain the popularity of taxis and vans. I used to take taxis to and from there to lower Manhattan, and it was pretty convenient.
You go Ashley for shooting down this idiotic stuff about "low class" men being responsible for harrassment on the trains.
Obnoxious male behavior cuts across class lines. If anything the suits are worse 'cause they know they can get away with it.
And those of you saying "it's a fact of life, deal with it"- That doesn't cut it. Yeah, there's no easy solution to this one, but it is a real problem. I remember what a daily trial the gropers and the stalkers were to my wife when we were living in the city. She got to the point where she would just announce to the whole car "Hey Everbody- see this one over here- HE'S A PERVERT AND HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS HANDS TO HIMSELF!!"
But then you never know if one of them will go psycho and try to kill you or something.
While we're on the subject of obnoxious male behavior on trains- here is one of my pet peeves; it really is astonishing after a while:
Men who, when seated in a crowded car with bench seating, keep their legs wide open, taking up 1 1/2 to 2 people's spaces, and in some cases practically shoving elderly folks off the seats, etc. Look around on a crowded car, and the proportion of men doing this is really astonishing.
Yes, this is small compared to other things, but the predictability of this phenomenon is truly amazing. I guess after a while it just becomes funny, but it says something about our culture.
Thank you thank you thank you!!!! I didn't even want to get started about the spread-eagle seating phenomena of men on the train. These are the same men who won't give up their seats for a pregnant woman (trust me, i've experienced it first hand) or an elderly woman, either. It must be their overly large cajones.
Although it would be ideal too, to scream at the alleged perpetrator or elbow him in the groin, sometimes it just isn't appropriate. Only a woman would truly be able to understand subtle harrassment, and it's awkward to try to point it out loudly, when it could easily be denied. And it is also easy for a man to say that women are making harrassment up, or that men are just as harrassed as women. I am not a woman who likes to bark about sexual harrassment, or the type of woman overly-sensitive about it, for instance, you can tell me a dirty joke and i generally will not be offended. However, there is a tendency for men to disregard a sexual harrassment complaint as a woman just being a nilly or overly feminist or something. It's really obnoxious for a man to view it in this manner, when they could just as easily try to have some empathy.
I am particularly insulted by the post by the man that insisted that he's been flashed by women on the train and that women harrass him by wearing bikinis on the train. I'm sorry, I've never been on that party train, that must've been private fantasy train to the playboy beach or something.
I really appreciate your ability to see things from a female-oriented experience, I'm sure your wife appreciates that too.
As I said, neither my wife nor I have ever noticed or experienced any of the harassing or overtly sexual behavior discussed in this thread in nearly 20 years of subway riding. Ever. Perhaps there is just less sexual tension on the Culver than on other lines.
As for seat hogging, it is a behavior that is typical of teens who ride the train when school is in session -- if they weren't jerks they wouldn't be there. I don't see it otherwise, and haven't seen much of it at all in the past five years (what changed five years ago, hmmm?)
The feminist revolution pretty much killed off chivalry. I would not offer my seat to a woman just as I would not expect a woman to offer her seat to me. But I and others do make allowances for people who have health problems, or are pregnant, or have children. See it all the time. My wife was often offered a seat when she was pregnant. My children are often offered a seat, and if they take an open seat, I am often offered the seat next to them, on the subway or bus.
In fact, once I saw a man offer a seat to a woman who appeared to be pregnant, but was merely fat. Boy, did she let him have it!
Don't make a generalized statement about men that way. Many men take sexual harassment seriousley. And I do remember once when a group of women rode the subway topless. It was to celebrate the new NYS Sureme Court ruling saying women can go out in public topless. Some people had children and were justifiably offended. I would suggest that if a man harasses you again to make a scene. These people need to realize that they can't use a woman's embarassment as a shield.
The R32/38 is designed to fit 7 people across in the long benches, the R40/42 is designed for 6 people. Seldom is this the actual practice.
I used to take the 4 in my high school years from Utica. The train is already crowdied from people geting off the B14, 17 and 46 buses. Then when the 3 rolls in, forget about it. I usually stand at the door because I would get off at Atlantic. There were times when I would come off the train with an arousal. Was I looking for an arousal? No!! But the 4 is so packed before it leaves Utica that you end with somebody up against, holding on or brushing against you. If people would learn to wait for a next train instead of jumping into a crowded then there will be less acts of "sexual harassment." BTW, many of the 4 riders to/from Crown Heights are middle class and not impoverished. Most cases there are perverts that look for that situation to stand behind women and get sexual satisfation. But sometimes you cannot avoid it.........
Take the M and transfer in Manhattan for a train to midtown. There isn't a gun to your head forcing you to ride the B.
Ashley,
I'm sorry for your experiences. I'm sure there are men who would do what was done to you on all the lines. And rudeness abounds throughout. But there is also kindness. I recognize that it is awful to be "manhandled" as you were, but please don't dwell too much about it. Just try to avoid, if possible, any situations you think may produce these results - on any subway line.
As far as crowding, I recollect seeing a posting here in the last four months, I think, by someone who reported on, as I recollect, agendas of some upcoming transit board (I think) meetings. Some items covered changes in bus and train frequencies for different lines, at different times. I know I saw something there about the B frequency being increased so they would run, in and around the peak periods, something like every seven minutes. I think it said this would be in the fall. Now maybe the person who wrote them might see this posting and provide more details. But maybe you could check with the MTA and try to get the information yourself.
IF the frequency is increased, the idea of some express service (I assume you mean betgween Bay Parkway and 36th St.) might have a chance of being implemented. So if you contact the appropriate MTA staff, you could find out how to present your idea, and to whom. Perhaps a letter would be enough. The line was built, fortunately, with a number of express stops so it would be possible, in the peak direction.
Good luck.
Do any of the regular readers have any additional information confirming these frequency changes? Though a previous writer noted that the line seems to have a good location but is elevated (and therefore noisy and an eyesore as other el's are),I don't think there's any chance it would be converted to a subway with a routing that would "average" the B/M and N routes. Any available money should be used to deal with the Manhattan Bridge situation by building a new tunnel connecting to both Broadway and Christies St. in Manhattan. Though it's been around (and run aground) for decades, is there any way (I don't mean by catastrophic failure) to force the MTA to accept responsibility to fund and do the work? I would think, considering the ridership on the Bridge and through the tunnel, that it should rank high on Federal funding priorities compared with projects elsewhere in the US that are getting hefty funding.
Let's get some action going here!!
Mike Rothenberg
(Let's get some action on Manhattan Bridge). An MTA official pointed out that not one pol, even from Brooklyn, has expressed the slightest concern about the future of the bridge and its effect on Brooklyn. Only bureaucrats care, and they are being ignored.
No, it's not just you. I have noticed severe overcrowding conditions not just on the "B", but on all Sixth Avenue Expresses. I transfer to the Sixth Ave. Expresses at West 4th Street from the "A" train and there have been several times that an express would be so crowded that I could not even get on. I have also noticed that the "express ride" between West 4th Street and 34th Street is becoming more and more dreadfully slower by the minute.
As for the harassment, I think that it is disgusting that we live in a time when someone complains about being harassed, they receive the responses such as those by "Chris" and "Subway rider". You are probably a lot stronger than these two because I assure you that if some groped them, they would need a lifetime of therapy.
As far as the perverts, I think your third response hit it on the money. Try to avoid the situation but, if push comes to shove, maybe you need to haul off and chop them where they deserve it. Maybe that will give them something to rub on.
Hey, calm down. I don't condone harassment in anyway. I'm just saying if she wants it to stop she's going to have to take another subway line. The overcrowding problem on the B will not go away for a long, long time.
Unfortunately, I am already about 10 minutes late for work on a daily basis because of the B. My only option in terms of other trains (which make even more stops) would only delay my trip even more, so switching to another train really is not an option. If only the N train ran express through lower Manhattan, rather than making like 12 stops before it reaches midtown, I would have an option. And yes, I have experienced sexual harrasment on nearly every mta train, as have the majority of my female friends and co-workers, so i do not limit this specific train in terms of harrassment. My main point was that the MTA CAN do something about the possibilities of passenger "discomforts" and harrassments and that would be to alleviate the crowded train phenomena of the late 1990s by implementing more express service on all lines.
As for a harrassment suit, I meant that fairly liberally when I wrote it. However, in this day and age lawsuits seem to be the only way to make change in societal issues, however inane they may be. Remember the scalding coffee incident at MacDonald's? Now you can't purchase a cup of coffee from a fast food restaurant that doesn't have a disclaimer on it.
And I think if a survey were done on the female riders of the NYC Subway, there would be astounding results in terms of the degree to which they have been sexually harrassed by male passengers. I've heard some disgusting stories, as I'm sure you all have. This is something that is omnipresent in the system, but is never spoken of. Does this merit it as yet another NY problem that we all have to live with? And again, this could be alleviated several ways, not only by focusing on overcrowding problems, but bringing the same rules that apply in the rest of the world onto the subway.
Unfortunately, I am already about 10 minutes late for work on a daily basis because of the B. My only option in terms of other trains (which make even more stops) would only delay my trip even more, so switching to another train really is not an option. If only the N train ran express through lower Manhattan, rather than making like 12 stops before it reaches midtown, I would have an option. And yes, I have experienced sexual harrasment on nearly every mta train, as have the majority of my female friends and co-workers, so i do not limit this specific train in terms of harrassment. My main point was that the MTA CAN do something about the possibilities of passenger "discomforts" and harrassments and that would be to alleviate the crowded train phenomena of the late 1990s by implementing more express service on all lines.
As for a harrassment suit, I meant that fairly liberally when I wrote it. However, in this day and age lawsuits seem to be the only way to make change in societal issues, however inane they may be. Remember the scalding coffee incident at MacDonald's? Now you can't purchase a cup of coffee from a fast food restaurant that doesn't have a disclaimer on it.
And I think if a survey were done on the female riders of the NYC Subway, there would be astounding results in terms of the degree to which they have been sexually harrassed by male passengers. I've heard some disgusting stories, as I'm sure you all have. This is something that is omnipresent in the system, but is never spoken of. Does this merit it as yet another NY problem that we all have to live with? And again, this could be alleviated several ways, not only by focusing on overcrowding problems, but bringing the same rules that apply in the rest of the world onto the subway.
Unfortunatley the situation on the B line is not entirely the city's fault. IIRC the Manhattan Bridge repair project is controlled by the federal government and is out of the control of the city. Until it's done (perhaps before my grandchildren get married) the situation on every single train that runs through DeKalb Ave. will remain deplorable.
Unfortunatley the situation on the B line is not entirely the city's fault. IIRC the Manhattan Bridge repair project is controlled by the federal government and is out of the control of the city. Until it's done (perhaps before my grandchildren get married) the situation on every single train that runs through DeKalb Ave. will remain deplorable.
How is the Federal Government, not NEw York City, in control of the Manhattan Bridge repair project?
I think it's because the Dep't of Transportation is in charge of the bridge repair project. Anyone here know for sure?
NYC DOT is in charge of the Manhattan Bridge project. The Feds have nothing to do with it. And they aren't paying for it. The East River Bridges are absorbing the city's entire capital budget.
I could have sworn someone told me it was a federal repair job. If the city is in charge why is it going so slow? They seem to be doing work on the WillyB a LOT faster.
(Willie B going faster). They don't say so, but that is because Willie B probably CAN be fixed. With the Manhattan, each administration just hopes for the disaster to occur on some else's watch. Remember the City DOT commissioner who announced the trains would have to be removed from the bridge? He was fired soon afterward, and the issue disappeared from the news.
Maybe the Federal Government (local US Representatives, the 2 US Senators from NY and/or DOT officials) should do an investigation. They should have interest in this if federal money has been spent in the unsuccessful repair work, over the last ?? years, just going down the Manhattan Bridge rathole. They should want to prevent that from continuing indefinitely. Maybe they could be persuaded to advise the City and MTA management to "derail" the current approach and start from scratch: apply for funds to build a new subway tunnel(or tunnels) (highest priority) and perhaps a new auto bridge. Would precast concrete tubes sunk in a trench in the East River make the work cheaper? Is the East River bottom amenable to this type of construction?
How many riders a day use the trains on the bridge? And how many a day go through the Montague St. tunnel? If the numbers are significant, that should help.
Mike Rothenberg
I think the bridge is about 90,000 or something. The tunnel might be something like that also
The Manhattan bridge should just be demolished out right put the subways in a tunnel and a new bridge built from scratch for auto traffic. Eitherway it'll take 15-20 years for anything to be done..
"Unfortunately, I am already about 10 minutes late for work on a daily basis because of the B."
I hate having to say this to someone I don't know, but, if you're 10 minutes late EVERY day, then leave your house 15 minutes earlier. Before you fly off the handle, please keep in mind -- I live in NYC, I work in NYC and on a good day my commute, using mass transit, is 2 hours (each way).
"If only the N train ran express through lower Manhattan, rather than making like 12 stops before it reaches midtown"
If the N ran express, all it would do is wait behind the R local. Might as well be useful and make the stops. When we get back the use of the south side of the Manhattan Bridge, you'll get your N express on B'way (if you're really lucky).
"And I think if a survey were done on the female riders of the NYC Subway, there would be astounding results in terms of the degree to which they have been sexually harrassed by male passengers... Does this merit it as yet another NY problem that we all have to live with? ... but bringing the same rules that apply in the rest of the world onto the subway. "
My apologies for the creeps. However, creeps are everywhere, you can't get rid of them, so, yes, you have to live with them. Now, before I continue with what I'm told are sexist views, a DISCLAIMER -- The following is in NO WAY meant to apply to any given individual, known or unknown to me. These are just generalizations based upon my own experiences.
The reason why a survey of female riders would turn up a large number of sexual harassment incidents is because females tend to have a broader description of what constitutes sexual harassment. Since April, when the weather started getting nicer, I have had 3 or 4 women feel me up (of course, one was a pickpocket, so maybe that don't count), one young lady bare her breasts at me, and of course, been forced to look at hundreds of women 'dressed' (if that is an accurate term) in some of the most revealing outfits: the semi-transparent sundress with no undergarments, the mesh string bikinis that show more than they hide -- you've all seen them so I won't continue. While I don't consider this harassment, there are no doubt, some men who would. However, if I were a woman experiencing these things in reverse, I would probably be screaming for a cop. The point is, its all in the viewpoint: for every woman who is sexually harassed in the the subway, there is a man who is sexually harassed -- you just don't hear about it. As for the rules, the same ones do apply in the subway -- if someone tries to do something to you, scream real loud, smash in his face, have him arrested -- just make sure he did it on purpose or you might find yourself facing the judge for assault; after all, accidental touching of bodies does happen, especially in crowded trains.
As a final word, if you are riding the subway alone after 9:00pm, don't ride in the last car. One time I won't see you do this, won't stop the train to escort you forward to where other people are and that will be the night something will happen to you. In a year and a half, I, ve broken up two attempted rapes in the midnight hours, both in the last car, both with a woman traveling alone, both at risk to myself for her stupidity and never a word of thanks. But late something happen, and I'll bet I get named in the suit.
(Sexual harrassment). Perhaps we are unattractive or unobservant, but I've never had a woman sexually harrass me, or accuse me of sexual harrassment, on the subway, and neither has my wife. This goes back many years, even when we were younger and slimmer. Someone tried to pickpocket my wife once, but she grabbed him and the doors closed, trapping him, and he said "leave me alone lady your crazy" and pointed to her wallet on the ground where she "dropped" it.
As for bare breasts, many of my neighbors have bared their breasts in my presence, but they were nursing at the time. Haven't seen it on the subway. On the other hand, I don't see too many babies no the subway either.
Perhaps there is a "swingers" line that Alex happens to ride on. But the sexual tension is definately low on the boring old Culver.
I want to thank all of you who have sent E-mails or made posts regarding the two old theatres beneath the Jamaica el. I am glad to hear that the Valencia survives as a church. If anyone should learn what became of the old Merrick theatre I hope you will let me know. I suspect that it was probably torn down. In the early 1950's it was a big thing to take your best girl to the movies in Jamaica on a Friday night. I alternated between the Merrick and the Valencia depending on what was showing. It was also an extra couple of rides on the steel cars on the el. One time we got started early enough to catch a late rush hour gate train from Crescent St to 111th St where we changed to the steel cars. The switching operation the gate cars went through at 111th St was a fascinating thing to watch.
Thanks again for all of your responses!
Karl B
Well, I feel terrible having joined the party late.
But now a conductor shall render his veiws on the subject.
Apparently I am the only one here.
TA already punishes severly for wrong side/outside
incidents. All those on probation are summarily fired. No
hearing, no if's, an's or but's. And as a union man. I
agree. Those people just make it harder for all of us
farther on down the line.
In training we are taught that this is the most grievious
error we could ever make. Speeches and videos are
presented. Bulletins issued. Yet nothing makes up for the
lack of inattention.
Harold's 100% right. Training is the answer. I wrote of
this a week or two ago. Only through rigorous
pre-employment screening and intensive and comprehensive
training can this be prevented. TA does nothing of the
sort. Then they try to come up with high tech solutions
that take the man out of the equation. Which suits their ends just fine.
A device that make both members of the crew agree before
the doors can be opened? Just another slow down. I don't
agree on principal. The Conductor's duties have been
whittled away to near nothing as it is. To now compromise
our authority further, and force our final true
responsibility to be shared with the motorman is frankly
humiliating.
Money on a device to ensure that the doors can be only
opened on the correct side? What's wrong with training?
It all fits into the TA's "final solution"
They want us GONE. If a few wrong side/outside incidents
occour, so what. Fuel for their argument, that we are
obsolete. Training is so minimal deliberately. Poorly
trained employees are easily replaced, and earn less
money.
Platforms to station agents, revenue collector jobs
eliminated, trash train jobs to station dept supervisors.
Bugging jobs to car inspectors. Work trains, OPTO, and now
our last bastion, construction flagging, to the
maintainence of way personnel.
Slowly we are being exterminated. And our fellow conductors do so much to help them.
I veiw my career as a conductor as the highly responsible
person in charge of a train that carries thousands. It's a
heavy responsibility. I make light of it sometimes, and
like all of us I can be complacent too. But it comes from
the knowledge and experience I have. I always know which
side the train will stop on. Even if we have crossed over.
Anyone with ears and feet can tell as a train is moving through switches.
I sometimes point in a lazy way. Doesn't mean I'm not
paying attention. Only that I know exactly where I am. And I feel comfortable with the knowledge that I know exactly where my train is and that it's fully berthed. Walk and chew gum?
TA doesen't teach physical characteristics. The RR's do. ONE day, sometimes only ONE TRIP is all a new conductor gets at a new line. I know which platforms are long or short. Which stations have crowds, or only a single stair, meaning crowding at that point.
But what of the rookie? He's thrown to the wolves, fending for himself. Is that safe? Don't always look to blame the crew for these problems. Like Harold said, the blame must lie with management for the lack of training. The Capatin of the ship and such.
Wrong line up's would be prevented without the idiot signs TA hung if P.C. training was provided. On the RR, we had to memorize the lines, speed limits, stations, etc.
Then draw the line with all the interlockings and home signals. If TA did this, then wrong line up's would dramaticaly decrease. But then it would cost more money, god forbid. Did any of you really think that $400 million all came from the MetroCard?
I know most of mine from experience, but again the rookie?
I can and have aided my motorman who was new, with the proper line up information. Heck Iv'e had to draw track maps from memory on occasion.
All conductors should be trained and have the level of knowledge and professionalism that I have. Then the system would see far fewer of these problems. Please note, I'm not trying to boast, only make my point. I humbly submit.
Thank you.
Erik
I can't disagree with any point in your post.
But how much training does a person need to know that their must be a platform visible to open a door?
We are not just looking at the quantity or quality of the training here. Lirr is about 12 months for an engineer and assistant conductors must take their qualifying promotion exam to conductor after one year. Engineers at NJT get 15 months. My point is the one who don't pass the aptitude testing don't get to school car. No Iq..no job. It only takes common sense to work here but it takes Einsteins to work there.
Railroad personnel have to pass tough FRA tests, and it's not a one-shot. They have to requalify every, what?, 3-5 years?
Both Engineers and Conductors are supposed to know every switch, curve, speed restriction and rule on the division on which they work. On the LIRR that means the whole railroad.
This sounds right up a railfan's alley, but I don't know how Mere Mortals do it.
Something I learned in the Army during basic training applies here as well.
The training becomes an exam of it's own. The length and intensity of the curriculum tends to weed out those who aren't inclined to put their best in to their duties. Someone who spends a year of their life studying and memorizing for the grueling final exams tends to take the job seriously and holds value in their achievement. It's unlikely they would tempt fate with something so stupid as keying an automatic, or not paying attention while opening doors.
NOT necessarily-- TWICE while riding NJT there was a door open on the wrong side! One was at newark Penn and they left NY Penn that way! the other, the train overshot the station(fair weather, no leaves)and the door opened to air! I was there both times and secured the door(blocking with outstretchd arms after alerting a crew member the first time. The second time, the crew member saw me block the door and gave me instructions which i obeyed--he told people to walk back to exit, I repeated those words while blocking the door by outstretched arms. he told me to let him know when it was clear to continue and I did give the proper flag for proceed. I got thanks both times!
The first conductor (The head conductor both times) has been letting me ride free whenever he sees me-- even if I going beyond my pass such as to Trenton or between the two Penns. The second thanked me profusely.
I was just doing my job-- a railroad employee is always on duty watching for our passengers saftey--even if we are riding on another railroad.
But it's not JUST having a platform visible, since there are a number of places where you can have a platform visible on both sides of the train, but you had damn well better not open on the short platform side (or before the gap fillers appear (or the middle platform at Columbus Circle (or the downtown plat at Bowling Green uptown (or the south-bound platform when operating south-bound on M track during G.O.s )))) Get the idea. This is why a lot of Conductors will ignore you and your questions while the train is entering the station (and again when observing the platform as the train leaves) -- it's for YOUR safety that my head is hanging out a window being attacked.
Hear hear! There is no substitute for proper training in ANY job situation. When the safety of hundreds, if not thousands, of people is at stake, you had better know your territory. I look at it this way - if you WANT the job, you train yourself ahead of time if you can, i.e. you go to school for it. NYCT no doubt provides a modicum of training for the C/R position, but what of the person who really WANTS the job? For myself - I pound the rails regularly. I stand at the front window and watch. I watch what side the platform is on. I look for GTs and jot down their numbers and locations. I study the map. I memorize the routes, colors, letters, numbers, terminals. I take pictures of the stations (well, that's ANOTHER pastime). I look for landmarks. I make note of curves, turnouts, interlockings. I watch signals. I observe the car types and what line they're on. I make it my business to know things like the difference between an R32 Phase I, R32 Phase II, R32GE and R38. I catalogue unit numbers. I take particular note of equipment moves. I observe the conversations here on this message board. Do I think I would qualify as C/R or T/O? I don't know yet-I haven't taken the test. But I DO know my way around the system. And I'm still learning. Are the new folks motivated? It's hard to tell. Based on what I'm hearing here, some of them are probably NOT. But many of them are and no doubt they enjoy what they do. It all boils down to - do they really want to be the best they can be? Or maybe they don't really give a damn at all.
Motivation is a plus. Knowing the territory going in could be a plus. Knowing the rigors and the ups/downs of the job going in is a BIG plus.
Wayne
"difference between an R32 Phase I, R32 Phase II, R32GE"
OK I'll bite. What are the differences? I can id an R32 vs.an R38, but didn't know of variations on the R32.
AS for what you said about motivation, it is very true. When I first came out as a CR in Dec '97. I was the only person in my class of 40 who actually had any kind of knowledge of the subway. While everyone seemed capable of learning, there were people in schoolcar that wanted to change procedure before they had even experienced being on the road. Since then, at least two people have left - one involuntarily - and others are just biding their time. One woman has joined the Dedicated Announcer program and one guy won the Rail Rodeo Competition, beating out a 3-time winner with 16+ years in title.Personally, I like what I do - some days more than others, but that's any job.
What is the "Dedicated Announcer Program"?
--Mark
A Dedicated annou8ncer works in a tower. They are the ones that make the announcemnts : "A downtown #6 train is approaching Astor Place" and other such announcements.
Is the dedicated announcer a conductor's job? It sounds like fun :-)
Yes it is one of the Jobs Conductors can be assigned to.
Ahhh, so you too can tell people to "stand clear of the moving platform as trains are approaching" every 50 seconds at 14th St and Lex .... :)
--Mark
That one's just a tape loop.
No I am a Train Operator. I don't have to worry about that suff exept kick people off of out of service trains and change signs.
Go ahead Alex, you can pat yourself on the back. You deserve it!
R32 phase I and phase II refer to their GOH (general overhauls). You can tell them apart by looking either side of the doors. There's a strip of metal running the height of each door. If it is beige enameled, it is Phase I; if it is silver steel, it is phase II. The differences are in the air-conditioning and electrical components used during the GOH. Their air-conditioning units are from different manufacturers. I think the interior paint is ever-so-slightly different, too.
R32GE applies to ten R32s overhauled by GE-Buffalo Transit (they did the R38s) as opposed to Morrison-Knudsen Co. (MKCo). These cars, eight of which are in revenue service, are identical to the R38 inside. They have the same GOH components as the R38. Their numbers are 3594-5, 3880-1, 3892-3, 3934-5 (parts cars), 3936-7. You may find them on the "A" and "C" lines. Their air-conditioning is not functional due to a problem with the compressor cradles.
R38 is similar to R32, as you have indicated. When first delivered, they were almost identical inside to the R32 3800 and 3900 series cars. Now that they have been overhauled, the interior differences between R38 and R32 are very striking.
Wayne
Wayne You'll do just fine on the Test. My son is also takeing the test. Did you get anything in the mail yet my son is still waiting.
This Saturday I'm taking the TSS Exam.
The problem isn't the test. It's the time to appointment. I took the C/R test in 1993, and with the help of my Veterans Preference was near the top of the list (high enough to get a listing the Civil Service paper).
I was only called for appointment last year (5 years later).
I have heard nothing yet. I am brushing up on my Fulton Express "A" (R32/R38 style) announcements and connections information. Next time I'm in the shower I'll do the #5 line.
Wayne
I'm a little behind on reading Subtalk but here's a post that caught my eye....it seems that the one place TA does skip is training. I agree with "The Transit Professional formerly known as Mr.R46". How often do we have refresher courses. Virtually unheard of now. The TA expects the Motor Instructors (TSS's) in the field to critique a person twice a year, but not all motor instructors are good teachers, and quite frankly there is not enough time to do a thorough critique in five minutes. Alot of things are passed over. Add to that that some personnel don't give a darn and have no pride in thier job makes for a bad situation worse. I can ramble on about what I don't care for in this area but I won't. I can get long winded.
Am I the only person annoyed by how infrequently the MTA updates the subway map and schedules(they use the same line description for the 2 and 3 and haven't updated the C(no longer goes to the Bronx)or the B(which now does)).
And the January map is still up.
Ugh.
I am interested in NYC schedules - they are some of the busiest in the world, and it is wonderful to see all the detail; but, there are quite a few problems in the current display. But it is wonderful to see the full schedules for the busiest rail system in the USA
I wonder if NYC transit are aware of them which have been this way since May 1st when the new complete schedules were posted. I have found these:
1/9: the northern terminal is shown as 241st instead of 242 st as on the map.
2: the nbound Sunday table is headed 'Northbound Weekday Service' the times appear to be correct.
3: many of the times of the 135-148st shuttle after 2000 are duplicated and out of order in both directions.
4: southbound Sat: times appear only until 1600
A, Manhattan portion: Northbound Sat headed nb 'weekday'; times appear to be corrrect for Saturday.
A, Brooklyn portion: Lefferts nighttime shuttles are either missing, (ie NB Sat about midnight) and shown out of order in both directions.
It is a great pity the Brooklyn schedules do not have a linking Manhattan station to work out travelling times. Try to work out how to get to JFK for example, from the Brooklyn times without referring to Manhattan.
B/C lines: I understand these reverted to pre Feb 1998 routing from late May - refer Subtalk - but schedules do not always reflect this, nor are the maps and opening pages correct. They haven't been changed for months. Yes, the current on-line Map is also incorrect.
B line: nbound timing points show from Coney I to 86th St (rush/ middays) - is this an express stop? Southbound from 86th St to CI.
C: times are in numberical but not TIME order, result AM and PM schedules are mixed together. Weekday timings are from headed from: Chambers/WTC to 135th St' sbound, 86th to Euclid Ave.
Weekend timings are from Canal St to 168th St.
F: the whole of these schedules appear to be those of the D line.
G: nbound w'day: timings stop at 1000am.
Rockaway Shuttle (H): heading says: 8th Ave Express.
M: a bit of a jumble with currently three separate services;
are there any am rush hour services to Bay Parkway? There are reverse PM ones. Possibly they are omitted.
N: Sbound Sat times are shown only until 1300.
Q: times are shown only to Rockefeller Centre instead of /57th21st St.
R: two early arrivals at 95th St about 6.00am have no starting station, and are possibly 59th St - see previous schedules.
A response from NYC transit would be of value.
The M is correct. All AM service coming out of Bay Pkwy makes 1/2 trip to Chambers St., lays up and resumes for the PM rush.
Also, according to the site, the B no longer runs between the Bronx and Coney Island. You'll need to take the C.
Ahem, they reeaally need to update that site of theirs.
the B TRAIN AND THE C TRAIN NEED TO BE UPDATED WITH THE NEW ROUTE AND THE C TRAIN NEW WEEKEND SERVICE THANK YOU
A while ago I wondered whether an all-rail movement between SBK and Bay Ridge LIRR was still possible. I finally got my answer.
ERA NY Division Bulletin for June 99 reports that the first transfer from Coney Shops to ENY Shops took place May 6.
The move of Slant R40s went via SBK, then NY Cross Harbor RR via 2nd Ave, 41st St., 1st Ave to a connection with the the Bay Ridge branch where it was handled by the NY&A to Linden Yard, then onto the Canarsie Line.
[ERA NY Division Bulletin for June 99 reports that the first transfer from Coney Shops to ENY Shops took place May 6.
The move of Slant R40s went via SBK, then NY Cross Harbor RR via 2nd Ave, 41st St., 1st Ave to a connection with the the Bay Ridge branch where it was handled by the NY&A to Linden Yard, then onto the Canarsie Line.]
Were the NYCH's carfloats used, or just its street-level tracks?
From the description, just street tracks.
The New York Cross Harbor street level tracks were only used during this move. This is the only way cars can be transfered to/from CIY to/from ENY.
On Friday, June 4th, one South Brooklyn locomotive tranferred two R-42's # 4814,15, from ENY to CIY, via the same routing. The only difference was New York and Atlantic had a MP15AC waiting for the train at Linden Yard instead of a SW1001.
About how far is it from Broad St. BMT to it's connection to the Montague tunnel?
Its about 3700 feet.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks to all those who answer my last post. I did go to CI Saturday night like I said. When I boarded the 3 @ Penn Av. It seems there was another rail fan along for the ride. He was waiting for thr railfan window which I occupied to Atlantic. (BTW, there is about 50/50 chance of getting a railfan window on the 3.) Switched to the D, my high school line. It went express from PP to Kings Hwy. I couldnt see much because it was dark. Returning from CI, I took the F with my friend. The trip wasnt as long as I expected, switched at Jay St for a Bklyn bound A. R38 came through. We were in the 2nd car which was 4062. Local to ENY. Here my friend took the J and I took the L. The J got there first and waited till the L got in. BTW, replacement is being done to the roof of the elevated complex. The big railfan trip is yet to come, 207-Far Rock. It is coming shortly......
A couple of questions:
1. I notice a couple of large metal boxes at the CI end of Ocean Parkway. What is their significance?
2. On the F, we entered the Bay Pkwy Sta. Along the open part the sign says 22Av-Bay Pkwy, but the windscreen the signs just say Bay Pkwy. What's up with that?
3. No evidence of the shuttle @ Ditmas. I think there is a little stub. Can anybody verify this?
I still think that the G should be extended to Church....
Bay Parkway used to be called 22nd ave. The Culver Shuttle ended at Ditmas. If you'll levae the system and go under the el, look up to the CI bound plat and you'll see th trackway.
On the F, we entered the Bay Pkwy Sta. Along the open part the sign says 22Av-Bay Pkwy, but the windscreen the signs just say Bay Pkwy. What's up with that?
I thought by now all the signs just read "Bay Parkway". Guess not.
There's no 22nd Ave in that area. Bay Pkwy may have once gone by that name.
This is similar to Neptune Ave / Van Sicklen, also on the F. For the longest time, the station had the name "Van Sicklen" because, at one time, the Van Sicklen family owned a great deal of the land near that station. (I don't know who they were). Over time, it was renamed "Neptune Ave / Van Siclen", and more recently, the "Van Sicklen" was dropped.
As for the boxes you describe near Ocean Pkwy, I think it has to do with signal equipment.
--Mark
Bay Parkway from McDonald Ave to the Belt Parkway is indeed the same as 22nd Ave, it occuping the block midway between 23rd and 21st Avenues. It names comes from the fact that it is a multi-lane street (parkway) that goes right to Gravesend Bay - as in if you miss the last turn, you're all wet.
This morning going to work, I was on my usual 8:05 out of Penn Av. I got @ the end of the train. I usually walk to the front of the platform even if a train is there. This was different. Things get weirder. At Nostrand, we usually wait for the 2 and 5 to crossover. But we went straight through. I thought this was going to be a good day. Nope!!! We got to GAP and stayed there for 10 minutes. Then we creep to Bergen. At Bergen, we were told that Atlantic is the last stop. The reason was that there was unauthorized personnel on the track at Times SQ. We got to Atlantic and the lights were blinking on and off. I waited at the station to see if a 2 come in and then run on the 4 line. After 10 minutes, my transit skills came in. I went downstairs and took the M to Broad St. It was a very light train..
1. Can anybody tell me what happened at 42-TS?
2. BTW, Broad St is a very nice station. It reminded me of the Canalon the N.
Before the M came in, there was a R and a N came in. Passengers got off the N and boarded the R. There was an annoucemnt that the N was going first and everybody ran back to the N. Where is that Good Shepherd??:):):):)
Not absolutely certain,but the best bet would be in the tower at DeKalb Ave.
Son and I have plans pass Philly, just found out about street car trips . Need info so we can change
Amtrak reservations. Son enyoys New York subway more than Disney Land. Spent a good week riding system in 1997, we are from Chicago. He logged more New York cars than Chicago even has. WE plan to have pizza July 3 and watch subway trains on the 1 2 3 and 9 lines .Is Sbarro still open at track level
33th or 42nd st.? The listing only has a snail mail address for info on the running of street cars July 3-5 Please e-mail us s we can make plans .
Thanks
Geoff
As far as I know there is no national ERA web site or email contact. All I have is the mail address. Maybe someone has an office phone number for them?
Yes, the Sbarro is still at 34th & 7th Ave (Penn Station) but has been reduced in size due to ADA compliancy construction projects at that station.
ERA's e-mail address is era@juno.com. ERA's phone number is 212-986-4482, but it's only staffed on Monday evenings -- any other time, it's pot luck. There is an answering machine/fax, though.
David
[As far as I know there is no national ERA web site or email contact. All I have is the mail address. Maybe someone has an office phone number for them?
When the brakes are released from a train, there is a discharge of air.
The air pressure in the tanks are suppose to keep the brakes off right? Where is the air discharge comming from?
Air applies the brakes, not the other way around. The exhaust comes from the venting of both brake cylinder air and Straight Air pipe pressures. Brake cylinder does the work, Straight air controls that.
It takes place at the operating unit underneath the car.
The air comes from the brake valve in the operating car and when released, some air vents there as well. The only time all the air will flow through the brake valve is when the electric assist feature is not functioning.
then what makes the the train go into emergency when the brake pipe is
broken? Won't the train just lose it's brakes?
The system is set up that air in the Brake Pipe must be present to release. A rapid loss of BP pressure causes the emergency application. And therefore the inability to release.
However the BP is not the source of air for the brakes themselves, the tanks we refer to as resivoirs are. BP is like SAP merely a control line.
Can anyone give me the email address for the MTA webmaster? I tried the two posted above, and got no good results...
Thanks, Dave
I don't know if these are the two you already have, but try these, from the registration for NYCT.ORG:
Administrative Contact:
Martinez, Alicia (AM1774) amartine@MTAHQ.ORG
212-878-7425 (FAX) 212-878-0150
Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Gagliano, Kenneth (KG809) webmaster@MTA.NYC.NY.US
212-465-2828 (FAX) 212-465-2786
How to go to the 72 and Broadway station from Baychester Avenue and Boston Post Road Bronx in 1932??? What are my options??
In those years remember the logistics were different
we had the 2nd, 3rd 6th and 9th avenue Elevated trains.
Also there were the Boston New York and Westchesr
The New New Haven and Westchester rail roads.
I could go to the White Plaines Road ,IRT Stations at either Gun Hill road or 219 Street, pay .05 cents, would this take me down the 3rd avenue El then across to Broadway? Did both stations have local and express service?
If I wanted to use the NY NH and Boston , which stoped at today's Dyer avenue Station and paid ? 05, 10 cents how would I get to Broadway and 72nd Street?
Phillip: Your route would have been very much similar to todays. You could tkae a #5 train from 219 St or Gun Hill and transfer to a #2 at any point from East Tremont to Grand Concourse to get to 72 St/Bway.
If you took the NYW&B from Dyre you would transfer at 180 St to the #5 and then same as the above. Remember in those days most daytime #2 service terminated at the 180 St-Bronx Park Station on Boston Rd. (Now razed).
The 3 Avenue El had express service in the Bronx from Tremont Av south. These were called 3 Avenue Thru-Expresses.
The White Plains Road Line did not get express service until 1953.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Many thanks Larry,
do you know what the fare was on the
NY NH & Westchester from Dyer ave
.05, .10 cents $ ?
If I took the NYNH & West. RR from Dyer to 180
I could switch at 180, pay an addition 5 cent fare,
As I was now on the irt to take the #5 downtown,
Then switch at E Tremont or 149 GCC for the #2 Broadway
and ride to 72nd st and Broadway.
is that about correct?
The fare on the NYW&B was 5 cents within the city. That was part of the contract with the city, the same as with the IRT and BRT/BMT, and presumably part of what killed it.
From Baychester Ave. and Boston Rd., the Baychester Ave. station on the NYW&B (and on today's Dyre Ave. line) is about one block away, walking east on Baychester Ave. That would be the logical station to get on at, not Dyre Ave. station.
Well, it's about time! Just heard on tonight's news -- after the pathetic Knicks loss :-( -- the approval of 43 for and (I believe) 3 against the rail line.
The claim is that the light rail system should be in operation by 2002 (yeah, like we're gonna see it built THAT fast!)]
Anyhow, the news is a welcome one to all who lamented New York's rail-less airport links.
Well, like the ad says: 'can you, uh.....Yahoooo!' (I can)
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, Sounds like a little wishfull thinking old friend or maybe the announcer got it wrong :-(
The 6/3 Newsday article says:
- 2002 = "... the elevated rail to connect Kennedy's airline terminals ..."
- 2003 = "The Van Wyck link (to Jamaica only)"
I wonder if the Van Wyck route will be driverless (motormanless) like the airport to long term parking piece ?
Mr t__:^)
I can only hope that City Council officials (and the Mayor) who said the LaGuardia line is more important were not just blowing smoke, and Vallone and McCaffery (who opposed) were blowing smoke. If you hear of another meeting, let me know.
I went to Modell's Sporting Goods yesterday -- looking to get a good fluke/flounder fishing rod for my Montauk trip later this month -- when I spied some unsual T-shirts on sale. The shirts had a banner featuring the Brooklyn name a la 'Brooklyn Dodgers' style with that swooshing tail. On the tail were the IRT #3, #4 and #5 line logos and the B, F and D logos on the shirt as well. I picked up a navy blue one with a yellow 'Brooklyn' title. I think the largest size is XXL and are going for 3.99 (I think they're on clearance).
Get them while they're hot, since these T-shirts, unfortunately, are not on sale at the Transit Museum.
Doug aka BMTman
Which Modell's, O Doug-man?
Charles, I saw them at the King's Plaza Shopping Center branch, but I am sure they carry them at all the Modell's stores (there is one across from City Hall, aka Giulianiville, as well as most NYC area shoppng malls).
Oh goody! I'm going to be in the neighborhood Sunday ... looks like it's time for a stopover.
--Mark
Thanks, Doug. I pass by one across from GCT. I will go have a look.
BTW, the Transit Museum store in GCT has t-shirts which have the big colored bullet on the front and the route right below. Something like
F
Queens-Brooklyn
Almost forgot. In yesterday's Daily News they showed someones design for a NYC subway car as the state emblem on the new quarters to come out in 2 years.
Wouldn't everyone here like this?
[ Like to see subway cars on NYC quarters ]
That depends. Which subway car?
Unfortunately, its one quarter per state, and I doubt those in the rest of the state would like to see a subway. I think it would be a good thing to put on a Bronx license plate, however, since there is one design for each county (though I note the irony).
Bronx = IRT subway
Manhattan = skyscraper.
Brooklyn = bridge
Queens = jet plane.
Staten Island = ferry.
I guess for the state, you'd have to say the Erie Canal, since it turned upstate New York into perhaps the richest area in the country for 50 years or so, and turned New York City into the #1 city.
[re designs on license plates
Bronx = IRT subway
Manhattan = skyscraper.
Brooklyn = bridge
Queens = jet plane.
Staten Island = ferry]
How about more realistic designs?
Bronx = welfare office
Manhattan = public money pit, er, hospital
Brooklyn = decaying bridge
Queens = whining NIMBY homeowners
Staten Island = toll booth
I suppose the design has already been chosen for New York, but I could take some stabs.
Statue of Liberty? -- I suppose, but it has too much of a national flavor -- not exclusively New York enough.
Empire State Building? -- been used too much already, and since surpassed in its greatest claim to fame.
Brooklyn Bridge? -- same as above.
World Trade Center? -- perfect in some ways--expresses public overspending on something useless and ugly, but we share the shame with NJ, and putting something on a coin that looks like two cigarette cartons might not get past the Surgeon General.
Mario Cuomo? -- we might be getting warm. Problem is--he might insist on being on the front of the coin.
The Beaver? -- almost perfect! Identified with New York, not exclusively City or State, and might appeal to multiple constituencies, but maybe we shouldn't even go there.
The Beaver? -- almost perfect! Identified with New York, not exclusively City or State, and might appeal to multiple constituencies, but
maybe we shouldn't even go there.
With Hillary Clinton coming to town, perhaps this would be a good idea...since her beaver-hungry husband is bound to come along too. :) -Nick
Well, I don't see how any of this relates to the Beaver, I mean, the kid was always in trouble. How about the state seal, super imposed over a map of NY, or a map of new york, 'excelsior', and the sybols of NYC, Albany, and Buffalo?
-Hank
It looked kind of like an R-68/68A. It had the front and the curved sides, so it wasn't and IRT or R1-40slant, and it had the larger storm door window, so it wasn't a rebuilt 40m/42, and it wasn't the R-110B/143 design either.
But this was only a proposal. It wasn't any final submission.
That was R110B prototype.
-Hank
I haven't ridden the nostalgia train since it was new (the service obviously, not the equipment).
Is this still run? Has anyone ridden it lately? Would you recommend it, especially if you're hauling a kid?
I'm particularly curious as to how personnel qualify to operate the Triplexes. They must be the only lap-brake equipment in passenger service.
Check the Transit Museum website for information. I don't know if there are any scheduled at the present time - I don't think so.
As far as bringing children - is the child in question an enthusiastic subway fan? If so, then bring him/her. If not, chances are the child will be quickly bored and will not have a good time - and will almost certainly make things miserable for you and the other passengers, no matter how angelic they may be otherwise. Also, enthusiastic or not, if the child isn't tall enough to see out a side window without standing on the seat, they present a safety hazard (kneeling on the seat is OK). And the usual issue that affects all of us when railfanning the subway - lack of comfort facilities - goes double or triple for children.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
< As far as bringing children - is the child in question an enthusiastic subway fan? >
The child is question is my soon-to-be-9 year old daughter. She's been transit-tested on CTA cars on the P&W, the Media Line, the MFSE, double-deckers and others and has enjoyed them thoroughly. She actually asks for transit trips, including (sigh) bus rides.
However, a fantrip can be long and tiring and the issue would more of having to withdraw from the trip early than of her acting out.
BTW, I don't see any listing for the transit museum at the NYCT site. Is it closed, or did I just somehow miss the link?
Personally, I have never been very fond of fantrips, although a couple have been really unusual (most unusual I think, was riding an ex-horsecar trailer in D.C.). Obviously, a fantrip is the only way I'll ever ride a Triplex again, at least in this life.
I can't exactly put my finger on my distaste--it's not the fellow riders--I enjoy the company of railfans for chatting and the shared pleasure of the trip. Maybe its because a fantrip doesn't have the same "feel" as regular service. Kind of like seeing a recreation of a battle which shows you what the original looked like, but can't capture the everyday reality of the event.
Does this make sense to anyone else? Does anyone else have preferences between regular service and fantrip experiences?
She's been transit-tested on CTA cars on the P&W, the Media Line, the MFSE, double-deckers and others and has enjoyed them thoroughly. She actually asks for transit trips, including (sigh) bus rides.
I'd say she's qualified! BTW, the Nostalgia Trips are not all that long. They generally start at 11 and wrap up around 3. And an hour of that is the lunch stop (once it was 90 minutes because of a G.O.).
I think you just missed the link to the transit museum. Here it is.
Does anyone else have preferences between regular service and fantrip experiences?
For a lot of us, we never had the opportunity to ride the Triplexes in regular service, so there's nothing to compare it to. However, I will say that it's easier to get the coveted railfan window in regular service than it is on the fantrips. On the other hand, the long non-stop rides are fun, too, and I guess it's the fact that we DON'T stop that kind of takes the "feel" out of the ride, that you've described.
--Mark
Yes, it certainly seems that she would qualify! As Mark has indicated, the Nostalgia Train trips aren't usually all that long - five hours the last time I rode one, including about 90 minutes for lunch. I'm not big on riding them myself, although I will go on occasion; to me the lines are more interesting than the equipment, and I can see them just as well for a buck-fifty (or four shekels for a full day of on-off riding) as I can by shelling out 25 clams for the special. I rode my first one, as much as anything else, because it was the only way I was going to get to ride the line between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Court Street. Also, I enjoy watching the people. If I ever decide to write the Great American Novel, the people I've seen on the subway will be an important part of my research material. Now, a fan trip on a Philadelphia PCC car is another story - I love those! (No offense to the folks who like 8534 [the Peter Witt] - but on the fan trip last month with 8534 and one of the PCCs I stayed on the PCC the entire time.) Again, though, a lot of it was on trackage that isn't currently in service. Those trips tend to be long also, and restroom facilities are even more limited than on the subway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
People watching is one of the great pleasures of riding the rails, just so you don't get someone upset because they think you're staring ;-)
That jogged my memory--I forgot my daughter's absolutely favorite ride so far--on the Lancaster Avenue car from its terminal in Overbrook all the way through the subway to Center City, a visit to the Galleria, then return on the same route.
If she didn't have even a spark of railfan in her (she was 6 or 7 at the time) she probably would have found the ride, with its many stops and crowds, tedious. But she was seated right behind the motorman and soaked up the ride and the people. It didn't hurt any that a fair number of the ladies passing by fussed over her, remarking how adorable she was. I didn't mind, either
Did you go to the Boston Trolley Meet last year and go on the picture window PCC fantrip (3295)? It was followed by centennial LRV 3495.
That was a blast!
--Mark
No, I wasn't able to make that one - wish I had, it sounds like you all had a tremendous time!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think you just missed the link to the transit museum. Here it is.
Got it. They seem to have expanded to other locales--SIRT, Farmingdale... But I don't see any Triplex trips. Maybe they like to do those in cooler weather.
For a lot of us, we never had the opportunity to ride the Triplexes in regular service, so there's nothing to compare it to.
Most of the fan trips I had taken were on current or recently retired equipment--what made the trips special was that they were on unfamiliar trackage or snippets of normally non-revenue trackage. Still, to affirm your point, I wasn't knocked out by the BU fantrip I took in 1960, but I'd probably low crawl to the City to be able to take it now!
I wasn't knocked out by the BU fantrip I took in 1960, but I'd probably low crawl to the City to be able to take it now!
And we ALMOST had one last year (or two years ago). It was killed because of the possibility of asbestos contamination (I *think*). We ended up taking the D-Types on the Broadway (Brooklyn) EL and Canarsie lines to Canarsie. In the rain no less.
I don't see any Triplex trips. Maybe they like to do those in cooler weather.
There was a memorable ride a few years ago in December. I didn't attend that one but it was FRIGID in Rockaway on that day.
Actually, the Triplexes need a decent amount of work. One of them is leaning to its side a considerable amount. There used to be up to 6 trips a year for a while, then it went down to once a quarter, then once a schedule, now none. The trend isn't good, so let's just hope its temporary.
what made the trips special was that they were on unfamiliar trackage or snippets of normally non-revenue trackage.
So, as an example, you'd go for something like riding a train of R-36s from Willets Point Yard to Coney Island, a non-revenue move (anyone at the Transit Museum listening? :) more than riding the D-Types on the West End Line? If I were given that choice, I'm not sure WHAT I'd pick!
--Mark
< Actually, the Triplexes need a decent amount of work. >
Conisder, the Triplexes are older now than the last gate BUs were they were pulled from service, and nearly as old as the Q-types at the end of their runs--and the Qs were heavily rebuilt.
<< what made the trips special was that they were on unfamiliar trackage or snippets of normally non-revenue trackage. >>
< So, as an example, you'd go for something like riding a train of R-36s from Willets Point Yard to Coney Island, a non-revenue move (anyone at the Transit Museum listening? :) more than riding the D-Types on the West End Line? If I were given that choice, I'm not sure WHAT I'd pick! >
No, I should have phrased that "the only thing that made the trips special was that they were on unfamiliar trackage or snippets of normally non-revenue trackage." Mostly this was equipment I could ride in regular service at the time of the trip.
Hey Mark, I think you're at the railfan window of every trip. It's only hard if you're not giving anyone else a chance! :-)
-Dave
Well, when the word goes out that "children get preference", I always thought that I'm young at heart :)
--Mark
Paul: I think I know what you are speaking of. While fantrips are a wonderful thing providing many with their first opportunity to ride a certain piece of equiptment or still others with a chance to renew an acquaintance with an old friend there are of neccesity a special extra-fare service.
There is something authentic about riding a historic piece of equiptment in a regular service at the regular fare. This was done with the IRT Lo-V's on the 42 Street Shuttle back in 1994 or the D Types on the Culver Shuttle back in 1975.
Larry,RedbirdR33
< There is something authentic about riding a historic piece of equiptment in a regular service at the regular fare >
I think you're getting to the heart of the thing, Larry. I loved getting the museum Standards (2390-1-2) when they were running in regular service in their BMT colors after the World's Fair.
Another problem is that, after a while, not only does the "museum piece" start to get an "inauthentic" feel to it, but the ranks of the people who remember what it was really like begin to thin.
Look at Lundy's Restaurant in Brooklyn. I haven't been back, but people who have seem disappointed by the experience. Maybe they can't put their fingers on it, but consider. The original chefs and staff are gone. New personnel trying to recreate the experience have to work from books and descriptions--they haven't learned how to be Lundy's staff from their immediate elders.
I think I learned something about this when we visited the Old Bethpage Restoration with my late Father-in-Law. The young guide, dressed as a farmer, took us into a barn and started describing the equipment.
My father-in-law was an unassuming man, but he grew up on the family farm and used all of the equipment the youngun' was describing, so he politely began to correct him and soon had everyone gathered around him. It wasn't only that his description was more accurate than the guide's, it was more colorful. You could actually picture in your mind what it was like on the farm in the old days.
I guess maybe I'm trying to say that no fantrip can quite capture the thrill of riding a Triplex with a skilled motorman in the glory days who knew just how to bring a million pounds of train down the hill past Avenue H at full speed on the express, then spot it precisely in Newkirk Avenue as gently as through he were parking a limo.
Yes, but all museums are merely recreations of the past. I wasn't alive when the D-types ran. I enjoyed my one Nostalgia Train trip as I imagined the past...
< Yes, but all museums are merely recreations of the past. I wasn't alive when the D-types ran. I enjoyed my one Nostalgia Train trip as I imagined the past... >
Oh, I'm not complaining about fantrips. I'm glad they're available. It sure beats just looking at pictures or drawings. I never got to ride on the Bluebird. How I wish I had the opportunity to ride it on a fantrip, or even walk around inside it at the Transit Museum. I can see what it looked like in 3D. On a fantrip, I could experience the feel of its acceleration, the sounds of its motors, compressors and brakes.
I guess I'm just whining for a time machine...
But if you had a time machine, you could go back and stop (how?) the transit-line abandonments of the past, so that one wouldn't **need** to go to a museum to see what it was like to ride the 3rd Avenue elevated in New York or the old North Shore from Chicago to Milwaukee. (^:
I never got to ride on the Bluebird. How I wish I had the opportunity to ride it on a fantrip, or even walk around inside it
at the Transit Museum.
The Railway Preservation Corporation is selling O-scale models of the BlueBird. They are VERY NICELY DONE, and they are also EXPENSIVE. I saw them at the East Penn show last month.
More info can be obtained from Allied Transit Services, 807 Remsen Ave, Brooklyn NY 11236 (I think that's the zip code). I'm not affiliated with RPC so I can't tell you much about the model (cost, availability, shipping, etc), but it has a fully completed interior.
That's about as close to BlueBird in 3D as I'm going to get :)
--Mark
Aren't we all begging for a time machine? But someday I'd like to write a NYC transit story, which would be close enough for me. I'm something of a writer. But I could never think of a good idea for it.
Last October when I attended NY Days at Branford (Shoreline) I particularily enjoyed the R-17 trip late in the day because it was full, including folks hanging off the straps. Except for the trolley pole it brought me back in time.
Mr t__:^)
Asst. Gen. Superintendent Mike Hanna (ret) is in charge of all museum equipment. He has a select group of old timer motormen who ran the stuff in regular or at least work train service. He calls upon them for moving those cars in yards or on fan trips. Every now and then he'll qualify a younger man whom he trusts.
You know, if we organized and made some sort of outcry, we might be able to convince them to have more fantrips.
Wouldn't you think that the NY Division of the ERA has been trying to do this sort of thing?
--Mark
I haven't heard about it. Which means it needs to reach more people. I've never attended an ERA meeting.
There's one particular T/O named Tony (don't know his last name) who usually operates the D-types. He does a good job of running the train.
--Mark
We had an old salt (a gentleman of maybe 55-60 years of age) operating the D-type last October 18. He was a consummate pro, it was as if he had been doing this all of his life. And he was smiling every inch of the way.
Wayne
I know I would have worn a silly grin the whole time had I been there. I'll bet a lot of other people were.
BTW, I think we covered this once before, but what sort of braking sounds do the Triplexes give off? Are they closer to that of the R-1/9s or BMT standards?
Application sounded to me pretty much like the Standards.
Release is a two part sound, not quite like any other equipment I've ever heard.
As I recall it, the first part sounds like the Standards. the second part is a "broader(?)" sound, louder and more airy.
I don't know if that describes it well--hopefully we'll have a chance to hear it again.
Steve B,
The D-types braking system was(is)identical to the R9s. Not only do they sound the same, when I questioned Don Harold about it he confirmed.
Some other tidbits: towards the end of their service lives some of the R9s were fitted with R38 compressors! I remember being at Canarsie yard and having to do a double take every time I heard those compressors kick in.
Also: when the TA bought those surplus SIRT cars in the 1950s they figured no problem, we'll just MU them with the ABs, since they look so much alike they should be able to MU. WRONG!!!!!! The SIRT cars did not have AB type brakes, they had brakes identical to the D-types and R9s!
MIke H
Id like to have seen an R-9 with an R-38 compressor as they would need a separate MG set too.
SIRT car couplers were also electrically incompatible with Standards -- H2C instead of H2A.
I already knew the SIRT cars could not m. u. with the BMT standards. Could the R-1/9s m. u. with the Triplexes, at least theoretically?
I would have done a double take as well if I had heard one of those R-9s with an R-38 compressor. Those were fast compressors, even more so than the ones on the R-10s.
I rode the all day Lo-V trip for all 3 of the 3 years it has run and we have had the same nice conductor each year- wearing the same uniform type (does not look like current uniform)
Anthony has the SBK motorman's job M-S AM's. Does that tell you his seniority/age?
Yesterday for me, transit wise, was horrid. First, I was late for work when some genius decided to flee the police by running onto the tracks at Times Square. This resulted in a power-off condition on the 7th Ave line from 50st to Christopher St (according to conductor's radio) lasting nearly 1/2 an hour; this was extended, because during the delay, persons decided to continue their commute by exiting the trains and walking the tracks to their stations. We were in the 23st Station.
In the evening, having stayed late at work to make up for the lost time in the AM, I left the Battery for Shea Stadium at 6PM. Lo and behold, the Lexington is shut down due to a passenger injury. So I wind up on the 7th Ave line again (Rector St) and cross at Chambers to a 5 train. It's 6:20 when I arrive at Times Square, knowing the ride to shea on an express takes just over 20 mins, I've got plenty of time. WRONG! A train is down at Queensboro Plaza, and I was stuck at Times Square for 20 minutes. There was a full train on track 1, a local, and a train arriving on track 2. My girlfreind, who was meeting me at the stadium, was stuck at Courthouse Sq for 45 mins (she was ahead of me) there were a few unintelligable announcements made at TSQ, but at 6:45, the train on 1 left. I was already on the train on 2, and we left a few minutes later. The first car had no A/C, and in fact, the conductors cab was open, and the heater switches were in the on position. I rode between the first and second cars all the way to Shea Stadium. The trip home was uneventful, other than my 1 train being slow.
Amind all this, a diamond in the rough. The conductor of the downtown 1 train I was stuck on in the morning, #89388, if anyone knows him, made announcements every time he heard an update on the radio, and basically repeated everything verbatim, thus keeping the passengers (those who remained on the train) informed of what was going on, kept his manners (and wit) while passengers were asking questions rudely; and even repeated himself to people standing around him every time he was asked the same question (when will we be moving again?) I helped a few people out with alternate directions, and I firmly believe the station agent was fed up, because she started screaming at people. Even with the constant, very clear announcements over the station PA and the SA telling every person at the booth of the delay, people STILL rushed through the turnstiles to board the dead train.
-Hank
By the way the passenger injury was a man under, that is why Lex delays lasted until 6:45 PM, an almost one hour delay.
Don't you love it when people get upset?
Thanks to our new fleet of M-4 cars, breakdowns and delays have become part of the routine for any MFL rider. I often find myself waiting(almost always in the tunnel) up to 10 minutes because a train at 15th can't get it's doors closed(the usual complaint) or from signal problems("But the light is green!" is the usual complaint, of course if they'd look out the window to their immediate right, they'd see a FULL RED SIGNAL- I would assume they'd never heard of emergency trippers either).
Never hear of people on the tracks unless something big was going on(there was a man on the tracks at City Hall during April's Mumia Abu-Jamal rally and someone was hit by a train at the same station during the Million Woman March).
At least in New York there is somewhat of a rail alternative depending where you are, but with our mere El, subway and 5 trolleys, if your train or car isn't running, all you've got is the bus, and I wouldn't wish that on anybody during rush hours:)
Yesterday morning was no picnic on the LIRR. I got to Medford station a little after 6:30, which is plenty of time to get the 6:41 train to Ronkonkoma and thence to Penn Station. 6:41 comes and goes, no train. Absent trains seem to be a relatively common Monday morning phenomenon on the Greenport line. Do the trains take a long weekend on the North Fork??? Anyway, I waited at Medford until just before 7, then went to Patchogue to catch the 7:16 express out of Montauk ... which showed up 25 minutes late and standing-room-only.
Murphy's Law to a T. It sounds as if it was one of those days you wish you could have just stayed home.
Hey, at least the Mets won!
exactly - an awful ending to an awful day
Another jumper in fron of the L train today. I immediately took the 6 to Bway lafayette for the F to Essex fot the shuttle bus across to the M. It seemed to take forever, but I made it home only 15 minutes late somehow. My wife wasn't as lucky. The announcemets made it seem as if the L was running in parts and there was no mention of a jumper, so she winds up taking the A to W4 to the F, to 14th, and then has to get back on the F for the A To Bwy Jct, only to find that she has to take the J to the M. It took her an hour longer than usual.
The communicatins is terrible in these situations. It's all rumor and hearsay. What are all those communications systems they've been [disrupting service] putting in the past 2 decades for?
In my years riding & working on the subways, towers and Control Center do a poor job in telling the crews what is going on during major interruptions. A train may be out of a base stations transmission or reception area so they may hear nothing or only one side of a conversation. Worse still, many times we hear more than one person from Control Center talking over one another at the same time. How many times at W.4th or DeKalb or other major junctions, the dispatcher will tell a crew they are being rerouted to another line and don't tell us why so we can tell the passengers why. Is that D being rerouted over Fourth Ave. to provide service due to a delay on the B or N, or is there a blockage on the Brighton Line? And they will just say "Fourth Ave." When you get to Pacific, you don't know if you are going Sea Beach or West End since Dekalb lets Murphy Tower (36 St.) make that decision. Just causes more passenger confusion and grief for the crews from the passengers. Same at W4th if a B/D/Q gets rerouted over the F line. They simply say :"Take the lineup" and don't ansewer the pertinent questions.
You say "There was no mention of a jumper." The TA does not want the crews to say things to passengers which may alarm them.. Things like bomb scare/suspicious package, passenger under train, natural gas smell/leak and the like are supposed to be addressed as "Emergency Situation" or "Police Investigation", or "Sick/injured customer."
Same with stations- we might actually know what happens but we must use words like "police Action", "sick customer", etc. In all booths we have a scanner which if someone did not unplug it and cvause loss of programmed frequencies, allows us to listen to police frequencies, fire department in some booths, and control center (IRT or B division depending on the booth). The control center might say something like this : "Attention train crews. Please inform your customers due to a sick customer at South Ferry we are short turning Southbound #1 trains at rector Street. We expect this to last until 1645 hours. Please inform your customers." We would then write on our white board in the booth that there is no number 1 from Rector to South Ferry due to a sick customer at South Ferry and issue block tickets (and hope the customers dont scream too loud!) During major disruptiosn police usually happen to be there and will assist in keeping order. If the customers get too rowdy we can call for police presence and I have heard on the scanner for police to respond to a station due to crwod condition.(I have been lucky and have not had to call for police to keep order. In the three times I have had a disruption I have cleared the station and kept order-once being outside of the booth( and yes, the superintendent did thank me for quick thinking and for maintaining order. My station was the calmest station on the entire Brooklyn IRT and Atlantic Avenue was near riot status with police to keep order. And that was before I was even on duty-my hours were changed to put me on duty and then the supervisor also thanked me.)
Those Scanners do come in handy I carry my own. One day Control Center told be to stop and Stay at 137 Street and not teling us why so I hit the Bronx Transit Police Button and found out there was someone wanted in a Robbery and boarded my train at 86 Street. Also its good to hear the real reason on delays instead of depending on Control Center. One scarry thing is there are lots of times Contol Center and the Police don't have there facts strait. Once there was a Fight on a Early Sunday Morning on a Uptown No.4 at 14 Street. The Police Dispach came over saying there was a Dispute on a Uptown IRT train at 14 St and 7 AVE then 5 Mintues later corrected themselfs that it was a Uptown No.4 Holding in the station at 14 St. Union Sqaure with a dispute on board. Total response time was 15 Minutes. I was beside that train at 14 Street. The Cops were on the seen as I pulled into 96 Street.
But I did hear about the jumper, from the police who were blocking the stairway to the L platform. That way I knew to avoid the line altogether. But saying something like "sick passenger" gives the impression that it is a delay that will be cleared up more quickly. People will be more likely to try and wait, or pick up the line at another station.
So it's area command centers that pass information down to another. No wonder the story changes. As I said, with all the new communications systems they've been putting in, there should be some way for officials at the scene to send messages directly to all train amd station crews and command centers.
And what I always wished they could do is take Peter's large track maps, put them together into a system wide electronic board, with the tracks made out of LED's, which would show the location of every train on the system. Green would be regular revenue trains, yellow, work equipment (except for the money train), and flashing red would be
stalled trains. Then you could right away see what was running where, and find the best alternative route.
Eric, check out http://sfmunicentral.com/ this url has a real time display of the downtown segment of the San Francisco Muni Metro Subway/Streetcar lines. While its not much it is useful--the display exists on one platform at the main station and is planned to be replicated at other stations.
That was pretty nice (though I had to use the non-Java version which looked very blurry)
Thanks alot.
"The first car had no A/C, and in fact, the conductors cab was open,
and the heater switches were in the on position. I rode between the first and second cars all the way to Shea Stadium."
The heater switches control ALL air comfort systems on the redbirds. Remember that AC was a retro-fit and was wired into the same control circuits. On really hot days on really crowded trains, the AC could be running perfectly and you'll never feel it, especially on a 7 that keeps opening its doors to the outside. If those switches had been off, things would have been noticeably different -- it would have been worse.
Having been aboard that car, I don't see how it could have been worse. The blowers were not doing anything, all the windows and the storm door at the #2 end was open.
-Hank
When I think about all the subway truncations, to me, no other line has been shafted like the 'G'. Now of course since it doesn't go to Manhattan it's not going to get as much "respect" as all the other lines, but with it's being cut from 179th, Church Avenue and pretty soon from Queens Boulevard altogether, how much good can this line do? Would it make a difference in reducing crowding or using capacity? Is it that important?
I personally don't know why it was really built.
It's riders have 0 political clout, the stations are in disrepair, and they suffer the indignation of OPTO.
I believe the TA views the line merely as an alternate route for F trains to Brooklyn whenever there is trouble on the 53rd St line.
< I personally don't know why [the G Line] was really built. >
Lines approximately along at least part of its route were seriously proposed at least as early as 1908. I think the greater question is why the City built it as a Queens to Brooklyn Line rather a Manhattan Loop (as the BRT/BMT wanted), which might have been more viable.
I think it shows what happens when lines are designed by bureaucrats spending the teaxpayers' money.
When the original planning was done for the IRT/BRT Queensboro Plaza Station it included provision for and construction of trackage for a proposed "Crosstown" line which it was assumed would be run by the BRT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I believe that the BRT 'Crosstown' line was supposed to connect to the Franklin shuttle at Franklin and Fulton, providing through service between Queensboro Plaza and Coney Island.
-- Ed Sachs
There were different plans over the years incorporating at least some of the routing of the G Line.
A BRT proposal released in 1911 would have had the Crosstown Line connect the Queensborough and WIlliamsburgh Bridges.
Another would have formed a loop of the Williamsburgh Bridge and Montague Street tunnel. One proposal adopted by the Rapid Transit Commissioners during the "aughts" would have had a track connection with the proposed 14th Street Line.
I seem to recall hearing of a proposal that would have connected directly to the Franklin Shuttle, but can't remember where, just now.
Bottom Line to this discussion. All the proposals I know of had Manhattan service, except what the City actually built. Maybe there's a a message there...
Actually, it would still be possible to route the G via the Rutgers Street tunnel and making it, probably, a Sixth Avenue local. Going to Smith-9th Street doesn't seem to have much value.
(G via Rutgers tunnel) Unfortunately, the tracks do not allow such a routing. The G can go only one way -- to Smith/9th -- and cannot switch to any of the other tracks at Hoyt.
I didn't know that. I was going to say that perhaps a construction project should be done to change that situation, but that would be so low on the priority list that it wouldn't even be worth putting on the list.
Yet, strangely enough, there is a proposal in the Lower Manhattan Access study to extend the G to a new LIRR transfer station in Sunnyside and then build a connection between the G and the Williamsburg Bridge tracks. (This would give another way into lower Manhattan.) How would this be done? Nobody knows, it's just a concept. But somebody thought of it.
The only explanation I have for the G is that lots of people used to work in factories in Long Island City and on the Brooklyn Waterfront, and went to Coney Island for recreation. The G serves those areas, directly or by transfer. Back then, people used the subway to go everywhere. Now, it primarily serves Manhattan business districts, so a trains that doesn't go through Manhattan seems to make no sense.
The G is an underutilized asset. A couple of connections (to the 63rd St tunnel?) that allowed the G to run in a loop would increase ridership, increase development in the areas it serves, and provide an alternative if the Willie B is ever closed to trains.
I had a though about converting the G line to IRT standards and connecting it into the #7 line between Greenpoint and Vernon-Jackson Ave. The flushing line north of QB Plaza could be connected to the 60th street/B'way line. It probably would require too much expense to ever happen.
(Run G on #7) The Flushing line is at capacity, so there is no room. The only thing that works is to take advantage of excess capacity -- in the 63rd St tunnel, Rutgers tunnel, and 6th Ave local.
The idea was to eliminate the 7 and replace it from VJ Blvd to Times square with trains coming off the present day G line. The Flushing line could be connected to the N/R line.
[ People using G to get from LIC to Coney Island ]
But the GG didn't connect to a Coney Island Line from its opening until 1954. IND riders who wanted to go Coney Island typically changed at 34th-6th or took the A train to Franklin Avenue and a Brighton-Franklin Express to Coney Island.
I don't think the issue is why the G route was built--it was planned in one form or the otehr from the beginning of the century--it is that it was built without a Manhattan connection.
I've posted before on this. It would be difficult to squeeze in crossover switches at the Queens-bound end at Hoyt-Schermerhorn between the G tracks and the A/C tracks. The G tracks start to duck dowm immediately after leaving the station, and trade places with the Manhattan/Court St.-bound Fulton tracks. It would be impossible to do this at the other end of Hoyt-Schermerhorn because the tracks diverge every which way.
Keep in mind that there were other crosstown IND lines planned, and that the G line was the only one which was actually built.
If anything to get an increase for the G line, it has to have some purpose. As someone said the trins these days are now serving for the Manhattan district. The only people who benifit from the G are the Greenpoint/ Willamsburg riders that want to go to Queens Plaza instead of the horrible B61 route (mind that mentioning busses) also for others who live within the area of the G line or an alternative for the F because of its long delays at 53 St other than that there are problems. If I had to look at the route today. it can be taken advantage as a crosstown if the service was better planed out (ex terminating at Church and Kings Hwy during rush hours an drebuilding the lower part of Bergen St) and as many people here have mention find a way to connect it to the 63 ST line and head towards Manhattan terminating at possible 34 St/ Bway. I hate what the MTA has let the G train to be - a precious wreck!!
I do not understand why subways/stations are hot in the summer (relative to the above ground temperature). It should be cooler, since it is underground. It is not the lights, as flourescents (sp.?) burn cool. It is not the mass of humanity, because even empty stations are hot.
Could it be the third rail generating heat?
Help me, I am losing sleep!
The subways are hot mainly because the trains are air-conditioned, and the heat extracted from the air on the trains is dumped into the subway tunnels.
Here in Chicago, the subways are somewhat cooler because each track is in a separate tunnel and the trains push the air along like a piston. Thus, there is a breeze in the stations. In New York, on the other hand, many (all?) lines are in a single tunnel, and there's no piston effect.
Yep, John has hit the nail on the head, here. The air-conditioning units on the trains generate heat -- just like a conventional home-window or central cooling system. However, in the subway situation it is the riding public waiting for a train who have to grin and bear it until they're able to board one.
Doug "the sweltering" BMTman
The AC is not the only thing making heat. The electric motors, controlers, dynamic braking etc. all create heat OK in the winter in the subway but a bit warm in the summer
Deeper stations are cooler since the earth is cooler and heat rises
The wind in the F line tunnels is pretty strong too I think stronger than what you feel in the red line tunnels I have not ridden the blue for a bit though John. I will take your word for it
That's the 53rd St. tunnel. Yes, you can feel quite a draft at Lexington Ave. from an approaching Manhattan-bound E or F train.
I remember getting a tremendous draft when entering the subway from the Museum of Natural History if an uptown express happened to be rocketing past at that moment.
Also, the tunnels of the early IRT lines are lined with tar, which was used as a water repellant. Unfortunately, it also has the side effect of trapping the heat generated in the tunnels themselves.
--Mark
What I noticed when I was in New York-
Many stations are directly below the street. With little ventilation other than the moving trains, I suppose that contributes. Though I didn't find the stations very hot at all( with the exception of Times Square- all five stations).
There are a variety of contributing (and mitigating) factors affecting the temperature of the tunnels and stations. Heat is generated by lighting, as you noted (even flourescents put off heat, just not as much as incandescent), people, and most importantly by the trains themselves. Traction motors put off trememdous amounts of heat, dynamic braking dissipates energy as heat, and even more heat is generated by the a/c units under the cars. Stale, non-moving air also gives the impression of being hotter than it really is. Conversly, when a train passes through a station, pushing air in front of it, a cooling effect is generated. This is most noticeable at the first stations on either side of any of the East River tunnels; the air from under the river is cooler anyway, plus the tunnels have generally closer clearances than the under-the-street tunnels, enhancing the blower effect.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I noticed in that in Boston, the tunnels and stations got noticeably warmer as the cars got more complex. Heavier auxiliary loads cause the MG or Static Converter to dissapate more heat also along with the equipment itself. The Second Law of Thermodynamics governs here: There is no such thing as efficiency when it comes to heat (entrophy). To cool the carbody (and the grids), you dump more heat into the environment than you take out of the car.
Gerry
In Toronto, stations get hot, again for the same reasons as New York: air conditioning units, etc. on the trains dumping hot air into the tunnels and hot air being pushed in from outside sections. Some of the deeper stations, especially on the Yonge line way uptown are kept cooler due to their depth and the tracks are housed in separate round tunnels, rather than the cut and cover method used elsewhere, so the resulting "breeze" keeps them cooler.
But if you want hot subway stations, visit Montréal. There the trains, which have no air conditioning, run on rubber tires! Imagine the amount of heat generated by them! Even in winter, you rarely need a coat in the métro. In the summer, the trains, which have only fans circulating air, are like an oven and because there is only a single tunnel with both tracks, little air circulation is pushed through the system. No outside air enters since the whole system, including the maintenance yards are underground.
Thanks for reminding me - I had forgotten that the Montréal cars have no a/c. Guess I'll plan that trip for the cooler months!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Williamsburg Bridge project is going along quite ahead of planing. Because of this, the IND/BMT lines will be getting a new schedule in September, earlier than expected.
We over at the Union got the work program books to conference with the TA, last week or so.
Well, lo and behold! I predicted this, let the record show that Erik was right:
WEEKEND A EXPRESS SERVICE IN BROOKLYN IS TERMINATED.
Even before the bridge closure, that express service was warranted. The ridership is there.
Oh, but that's not all, E and F service also gets cut to unbelievable levels. The only line that keeps ANY of it's service improvements is the L. Even that was cut somewhat.
As I have been saying all along, the TA believes the ridership increases are a fluke, and will return to the levels we saw in the late 1980's sooner or later. This is why they flat out refuse to incease service any more than is absolutely necessary. (as they dictate)
It only shows their utter contempt for the riding public. Larry Reuter LIED. As he rolls around town in his chauffer driven car to his TA paid for Town House, he's laughing at you and me.
Outrage, is the only word that comes to mind, as these cuts are indefensible. As in the past, public outcry will change nothing, the Transit dictators answer to NO ONE! Bend over every one, here comes another demonstration of the TA's love.
Trust no one;)
Actually, Erik, I believe that if we check the archives, I said it before you did. I was 'corrected' by the friend o our friend from Operations Planning.
What wrong with the new diesel coaches. The doors would sometimes not
close or open. Why? Computer problems? Or the crew just don't know how to proceed?
A source told me recently that part of the problem is crew experience.
It would be reassuring to hear officialy or un-officially from someone at the LIRR what progress they are making in quantity of trainsets that are in regular service.
(Most of have seen the posts of dbl decker sightings on the various lines, but how many of the avail. sets are in service vs. in the yard due either to lack of qualified crews or equip. failure ... we wouldn't even need to know why, just the qty would show progress)
Mr t__:^)
James: I responded to both your e-mail but they were returned to me as undeliverable because your address had permanent fatal errors.(Whatever that means.) Please send me another e-mail and include your mailing address and I can send you what you asked for.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I was at Roosevelt Ave this evening waiting for a Forest Hills-bound local. On the Manhattan-bound express track- an R train(R-46's) arrived and the side signs displayed "NYCTA" and then "METRONORTH RR." Why is "METRONORTH RR" even stored in the signs?
Probably in case there is a diversion on the railroad, and they use the subway to get the people to Manhattan (like if the service can't run below the north Bronx, and people would be bused to 205th or 207th, and special trains would pick them up and run nonstop to Penn station. There's also "LONG ISLAND RR" on the signs too.
Uh oh! That was me last night! I was trying to remember the code for SKIP-STOP. I kept fumbling trying to recall. First I had LIRR, then NYCTA. Finnally I got it right.
I need some way to compensate for the TA's lack of platform Conductors!
The reason the sign code's there in case we have to provide a supplementry service because of a disruption in either RR's operations.
Erik, What's the penalty for displaying unauthorized messages? Mr. Spivey would not be pleased!!!
Eric is a hell of a guy and conductor. Spivey will see to it that Eric gets his commendation of 5 lashes A.S.A.P.
What it does is screw up the data on the reports that the TA looks at.
Every month I have to deal with all those folks that boarded a bus "Not In Service" and went to "Garage" :-(
I've never seen any guidelines for displaying messages other than those listed on the wall. There is a bulletin for when there are service re-routings, it lists the different codes. Problem is none of the dispatchers bother to use them. SO if I occasionaly run with a different one programed because it fits what our operations are, that's too bad for Spivey, Wynter, Mojica et al.
This week, and for quite some time now, Queens has been running all kinds of service disruptions for track work. We run express as an R from Forest Hills to Queens Plaza. To help ease the inevitable confusion, I program either EXPRESS, or SKIP-STOP. I make long and detailed announcements with the directions to the bypassed stations too, but it never fully compensates.
When we had Luminator compile the list of messages, O & P suggested over 1,000 possible routes and variations. My current list has 1,042 codes including two we use for testing purposes during inspection. Incidently, the software for writing messages is DOS based and quite simple to use. I don't believe that O & P has a copy, either :)
Incidently, the software for writing messages is DOS based and quite simple to use.
Wonder if it's Y2K compliant or if we'll see some new messages come January 1st ... :)
--Mark
The Luminator Software is not date dependent so I suppose Y2K will pass uneventfully for the R-44s and R-46s.
Incidently, there are 8 cars with messages welcoming, then Governor, mario Cuomo and heralding the Queens Blvd. Super Express. The messages were added to 4 Sign Control Units for a special train that was to be used for politicians to see progress on the 63rd St. line. (There is a pix of the R-46 with a 'prop' end sign in the R-46 roster section). However, with swapping of parts so prevalent, it's doubtful that we'll ever track down those oddball memory cards witht e extra messages. Of course, if Erik keeps entering unauthorized codes, he's liable to find them for me....
Is 9998 one of the test codes?
Yes it is!!!!
That test code performs several functions.
First, it allows each pixcel to be displayed or not displayed so that defective characters cane seen and replaced. That can be readily seen when the messages are displayed.
Second, , since each of the components (the ODK and each of the 4 signs per pair) has a discrete address, the test code causes each device to display it's code. The ODK must be addressed 0001 while the 4 signs are addressed 0002 through 0005. No two devices may have the same code as another device in the chain.
Third, The signs will display their location in the car, for example A car Coupler (end) .
Our bus drivers have the same problem, ever seen the route sign say:
Training Coach; See Sign Below; The Big Apple; Merry Christmas (in June) ? ... Emergency Call Police ... that's a different problem.
Mr t__:^)
What does the "R" stand for in R type subway cars like R62. What does the number stand for. Is it like railroad locomotives where numbers are kind of random except higher means newer?
R means Rolling Stock. The number is the contract number.
R 1 was the first city purchased subway car. Only the R 2 was the trucks for the R 1. After that the cars were contracted as a complete set.
The newest rolling stock is the R 141, flat cars.
Phil Hom
ERA3620
There also were "R" contracts for things like roll signs. There was a contract for roll signs ordered in the early 1980s which was R63.
Too bad the Hunter Illuminated Car Sign Company in Flushing is no longer around.
I always understood if stands for "rapid transit," as opposed to surface lines purchases, which are "MB" for "motor bus."
I would have failed that trivia test.
I am wondering why they don't use a W or S or F for MOW equip. or just use the mfg model number, e.g. 707, 727, 747, DC-9, etc.
Mr t__:^)
I would say it's because subway cars are custom equipment, each model built to specifications of the agency ordering it. Airplanes generally start with the same frame (ie, the 747-200, 747-400, and 747SP are all operationally identical, and are based on the same plans, the main differences being length and power. Also, I believe the 'R' is for 'Revenue Contract' I know I read that somewhere....
-Hank
I concur with Hank Eisenstein about the "R" meaning "Revenue Contract".
There is a complete list of the R-series contracts at Joe Korman's pages.
But Bus Contracts are "MB": Motor Bus.
But the "R" for "revenue equipment contract" dates back before MTA and even NYCTA to the City Board of Transportation and the municipal subway (IND). And since that operation involved only subways (and elevateds to some degree) and not buses, trolley buses, or streetcars, "R" for revenue meant revenue **rapid transit** equipment contracts, and the practice stuck.
So, if MB is "motor bus", was there a TB for "trolley bus"? Or a S for "streetcar"? Were there ever trolley buses in New York at all? (I mean, of course, vehicles operating on road tires but with electric motors powered from overhead wire, and most definitely NOT those cheap faux imitation diesel-powered "trolleys" that aren't even really buses.)
Brooklyn had trolleybuses, see http://www.nycsubway.org/bus/trackless/
-Dave
"Revenue equipment" means subway cars, as in "revenue service". Most "R" contracts are non-revenue equipment. And it's a fact that "MB" was (maybe still is) used for bus orders.
I don't know what the contract for the purchase of trolley coaches (c.1948) was.
Neither the Board of Transportation nor the NYCTA ever purchased any streetcars. The City did operate a trolley line prior to Unification for a while, the Williamsburgh Bridge Shuttle, but I doubt any streetcars were purchased new for it.
I agree with Hank and the others who have mentioned that "R" originally stood for "Revenue"; I believe the designation was used to indicate purchases made with bonds which would have to be repaid through the "revenue" collected from fares. None of the construction has been handled with that type of 'revenue bonds.' It's only necessary to go back to the R-2, R-3, and R-5 contracts, for example, to realize that it did not refer to "revenue cars" or "rapid transit cars."
Also, on the question of NYC trolley buses, don't forget the Staten Island operation in the 1920s. (And didn't some Brooklyn trolley buses also operate into Queens?--that would mean that three of the five boroughs had trolley bus service at one time or another.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The Staten Island operation was run by the NYC Department of Plant and Structures. Wonder what they are now?
-Hank
At least 4 (I didn't actually count them) MVMs have been placed on the northbound entrance level of the Bowling Green station (the entry in front of the Custom House) None seemed to be activated as of last night, and they have signs on them reading 'Testing in Progress' , and I think (again, no time to really check them out) they said something else.
-Hank
Besides being installed (electrical) and loaded (paper, ribbon, cards) they have to be connected to the computer inside the booth so the station agent can get any messages from the machine such as out of change, no cards, etc.
I just saw a bank of them being tested at Jay Street this morning. I guess it will take credit cards?
Also, does anyone know if they'll be dispensing the rare and collectible MertroCards? (Hey, Thurston, I think this question's for you!)
Doug aka BMTman
I assume the MVM issues standard/plain "Tryplex" cards (lammated plastic vs. plastic). There were two versions "tested" so collectors should have three now ;-) ... have extras, what to trade ???
Also you can buy the one-trip green card (comes on transfer stock, but it's green vs. blue)
At some point, when more machines are installed, they may offer advertizers the option of marketing on this card.
BTW, when I "voted" for my favorate MC they put me into a database. I just got "spamed" by them this AM.
Mr t__:^)
Allow me to update :)
Went into the Bowling Green station to put another $3.50 on my PPR card (work provides me a 30-day, but it's no good on my x-bus) The 4 machines (I counted this time!) were up and running, and being set up by Cubic personnel. I asked a few questions, and observed a bit.
According to Cubic, the machines at Bowling Green will be activateed on Tuesday. The systems run on Wintel-based machines, and are equipped with a UPS. They are bolted to the station floor in a housing built for 2 machines, and they can have up to 8 languages pre-programmed, but they limit it to 4, depending on neighborhood. Machines in heavy tourist . It was suggested that I 'amaze my freinds' by memorizing the screens (they will be identical, no matter the language) and buy cards in Chinese.
I asked if I could have a blank 'green card', but was told no. The machines will aparently NOT be maintained by the booth personnel, they will instead call 'mommy' when they need 'changing'.
-Hank
This shows me three things:
1. They don't trust the Station Agent with the cash in side, even though the machine will know how much it has.
2. Ultimately they expect the Agents to go away.
3. They care S-O-O-O much about SERVICE to the public.
Mr t__:^)
The reason is safety- they will contain quite a few cards and tons of money. We will be there to assist users witjh the machine. We wont feed the machien to avoid robbery. The money people will feed the machines (and they have guns and even police escort)
Judging from Chicago's experience with installing Transit Card machines in EVERY station (not just "key" stations):
"1. They don't trust the Station Agent with the cash in side, even though the machine will know how much it has."
Definitely true. CTA instituted Transit Cards to get station agents completely out of the business of handling money, tokens, or transfers. CTA has supposedly saved several million dollars that had previously been lost from what they termed "shrinkage" (money both stolen and accidentally lost or misrecorded by Station Agents).
"2. Ultimately they expect the Agents to go away."
Not necessarily so. CTA kept all the Station Agents. They just don't handle money anymore. Instead, they are "Customer Assistants" that leave the booth to answer passenger questions and help new passengers operate the Transit Card machines. CTA has no plans to get rid of the Customer Assistants. In fact, they installed in every station call buttons on the platform and next to the booth, so that if the C.A. is helping someone elsewhere in the station, and someone wants their assistance, they can push the button and a recorded voice pages the C.A.:"Customer Assistant is needed on the platform."
"3. They care S-O-O-O much about SERVICE to the public."
Maybe it's just me, but the Customer Assistants seem to be a real **improvement** in service. When they handled money and tokens, they had to pretty much stay in their booth. Now, they can -- indeed MUST -- leave the booth to answer passenger questions, check out the condition of the station, etc.. And since they help new or confused passengers to operate the Transit Card machines, there's no reduction of customer service.
Contrary to the Luddite tendencies of some of the people on this board, not all innovation in transit is bad, not even innovations that APPEAR to reduce the necessary work force. Before multiple-unit door control, for example, there had to be a train crewman for each two cars -- standing exposed to the elements between the cars!
[3. They care S-O-O-O much about SERVICE to the public."
Maybe it's just me, but the Customer Assistants seem to be a real **improvement** in service.]
[And since they help new or confused passengers to operate the Transit Card machines, there's no reduction of customer service. ]
Don't get me wrong ... as we've seen in comments from the Subway-Buff and others, if mngt. would let them many/most of the staff at the token booth would provide "service" to the customers.
I can SEE the difference at this depot where eye know mngt. wants us to provide service to the customers.
P.S. I also remembering recent comments from some the engineers & conductors on this SERVICE subject.
Mr t__:^)
So..where next? When I was in the city last week, it was the first time i had been in the IND WTC station for awhile, (since the booth got moved)and it looks like the space where the token/change was is going to be where MVMs are going to be....
I received the following email from "MetroCard Product Development" (PRODDEV@NYCT.com) yesterday:
Dear MetroCard Customer:
Thank you for your interest in our MetroCards and MetroCard holders! In response to your requests, we are taking this opportunity to inaugurate email announcements of some of our upcoming products.
We respect your privacy. You may reply to this message or send an email message to us at proddev@nyct.com indicating that you do not wish to receive additional promotional messages of this type from us, and your email address will be removed from future promotional mailings.
New Commemorative MetroCards
*June - Subway Kiosks MetroCard - our second card in the six-card "Subway Cool" MetroCard series - available for purchase in June through the Internet at metrocard.citysearch.com (various denominations) and at our Transit Museum Stores ($15 only).
New Commemorative MetroCard Holders
*Began in May - New York Views - seven holders featuring scenes of New York City - $1 each, at participating MetroCard merchants and at our Transit Museum Stores.
*Mid June through August - Museum Pieces - four holders, featuring art from the Metropolitan Museum of Art (starting 6/22), the Whitney Museum of American Art (6/1), the Museum of the City of New York (7/1), and the Transit Museum (8/1) - $1.50 each, at the museum gift shops, at our Transit Museum Stores, and at other merchants as shown on our web site.
*Mid June through the fall - Great Subways - 46 holders, featuring subways from around the world - exclusively at our Transit Museum Stores; different holders available each month for $1.50 each, boxed set of all 46 for $60 available in August.
If you would like more information about MetroCard and about New York City Transit, please visit our web site at www.mta.nyc.ny.us
We hope you enjoy the upcoming MetroCard products.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Fisher and Rachel Givner
MetroCard Product Development
I see Todd got Spamed on Beacon Hill, guess you "voted" too ?
I've actually spoken to Jonathan twice: 1. Pleasure, I wanted a consolation prize for finding cards not on their list of 77. 2. Business, was interested in how much it would cost QS to put it's logo on some cards. The cost is reasonable.
Mr t__:^)
QS putting its logo on some cards? Are they going to do it?
I put the details togather & passed it upstairs, I'm just Thurston in the basement here. There was interest at a high level. If it becomes a reality I'll post here so those of you that want one can buy it. It would be a $30 (33) "Value" card.
P.S. If/when we decide to do it, it'll take another couple months to get the graphics done in Japan.
Mr t__:^)
Yup, Mr. T., I voted from my perch on Beacon Hill.
My idea for a MetroCard: A small child trying to peer over the sill of a railfan window. When I'm at the RFW I always give way to an interested child!
[When I'm at the RFW I always give way to an interested child!]
Me too, and I usually give them a trivia test, e.g. do you know why there's a green & yellow light on that signal ?
Mr t__:^)
I've done that on occasion and once, the child actually knew why. She pointed out emergency trippers, the third rail, knew the track guage and type of third rail. When she and her father left the train, I saw him wearing a SEPTA jacket.
Yes, you can't assume the kid is stupid about this stuff. Mom or dad may be on the train, or the kid may be a buff already. For me the trivia test opens the door to some conversation. I may be the teacher or the student, and if dad/mom opens the door it can turn out to be a great trip.
Mr t__:^)
I have been reading a great deal of messages about the Chrystie Street connection that took place in 1967. I still don't understand the real significance of it. I have heard it resulted in a change of numbers and letters of various and sundry trains, but even on that score I'm not sure. Can some of you out there enlighten me? There must have been more to it than that.
In global terms, the Chrystie Street connection was the first major link-up between the BMT and IND. Although the connection from the BMT 60th Street tunnel to the Queens Boulevard IND line pre-dated it, as did the Brooklyn IND connection to the Culver line, Chrystie really meant that the BMT and IND would forever be merged into one (except in the minds of railfans). Although some equipment had been interchanged between the BMT and IND before Chrystie, that even hastened the intermelding of equipment on a basis not previously seen. In hindsight, maybe it wasn't as big a deal as it was made out to be at the time in 1967. But it certainly is near the top of the list of the big subway events of the century.
Perhaps the following will elucidate. In the weeks preceeding the changeover mini-posters were in BMT div cars saying that essentially the whole southern division would be reconfigured, and very few then current terminal paiurs/routes would remain. Item, the Concourse (D) swapped Culver for Brighton, The F got Culver instead of miodtown or Bway Laf, The West End swapped midtown for Wash Hts., and briefly Sea Beach got a real Express! One local Bay Ridge community paper demanded restoration of the old on the grounds of confusion. AND of course, sadly, the TA made matters infinitely worse by not having sufficient destination signage on assigned equipment resulting in blank white for everything and the usual mumbled announcements. All that said. it was an improvement in throughput and travel times for some and would have continued as such absent the ludicrous behaviopur of everyone vis a vis Man Br and the cheapo McDonalds control freak solution to high performance cars being mishandled. IF the bridge problem is ever legitimately fixed, and the signalling reliably upgraded, then the potential improvements can be realized. BTW, much as I like seeing out the windows on the bridge-START DIGGING the new tunnel YESTERDAY!
The purpose of the whole affair was to give the BMT Southern Division and the IND 6th Av. lines more useful through routes. Prior to the connection (and the 6th Av. Express Tracks) only the D was through routed from the bottom end of 6th Av. The entire Southern Division of the BMT was limited to Broadway and the Nassau St. line. which looped back over the Bridge. The connection allowed 6th Av. trains to reach all the Brooklyn destinations while trains from Brooklyn had a choice of either the Montague Tunnel to the Lower Manhattan local or Nassau to the Eastern Division or crossing the Bridge to either 6th Av. or Broadway. This made the 6th Av. Line a lot busier.
A second Connection brought 6th Av. trains to the Eastern Division, but it didn't generate enough traffic. (People probably followed habit and changed for uptown at Delancy-Essex, getting off a train which was going their way!)
The only loss in the effort was the cutting of the Nassau Loop, meaning that all bridge trains had to go uptown.
The failure to keep the connection between the Broadway line and the North tracks on the bridge was costly when the south tracks went south.
Gerry: Is that why when the IND & BMT starting running along similar lines with the Chrystie connection, BMT numbers were changed to letters?
Actually the letters for all BMT routes were assigned in 1960, 7 years before. The co-existed with the old numbers. In 1967, after the merger, the numbers were abolished and disappeared from trains.
Southern Division stations had "Know Trains at a Glance" placards prominently displayed on platforms which cross referenced the new letters with the old titles. I remember seeing one such sign in 1967. Shore Line has one up on the wall in their maintenance barn.
It read thus:
M - Nassau St. Express (this was used on Bankers' Specials)
N - Sea Beach Express
Q - Brighton Express
QB - Brighton Local via Bridge
QT - Brighton Local via Tunnel
RR - 4th Ave. Local
T - West End Express
TT - West End Local
Dear Chris:
In 1960s, the R-27s and R-30s introduced the letter markings for
the BMT Division. The code was extended, using the letters J to T.
This was the complete BMT letter code on the R-27s/R-30s roll signs.:
(J) Jamaica-Nassau Street Express
(JJ)Jamaica-Nassau Street Local
(KK)Broadway-Brooklyn Local
(L) 14th Street-Canarsie Express
(LL)14th Street-Canarsie Local
(M) Myrtle-Chambers St-Nassau Street Express
(N) Broadway-Sea Beach Express via Bridge
(Q) Broadway-Brighton Express via Bridge
(QB)Broadway-Brighton Local via Bridge
(QT)Broadway-Brighton Local via Tunnel
(RR)Broadway-4th Avenue Local via Tunnel
(SS)Shuttle
(T) Broadway-West End Express via Bridge
(TT)West End Local via Nassau Street Loop
James S. Li
Prior to the Chrystie St. connection opening, the M marking was used for Banker's Specials, since it was already assigned to the Nassau St. express and that's where the specials ended up.
Fred; The BMT Number System goes back to 1925 with the delivery of the Triplexes. However only a minority of the BMT fleet, the Triplexes and Multis,Green Hornet and Zephyr,actually displayed the numbers. The vast majority of the equiptment, Standards,C,Bu,Q and Bluebirds did not. The BMT did use the routes numbers on their maps though. After unification the BOT while not abolishing the system did not encourage it and BMT routes were shown with names only although the equiptment that could display the numbers did.
The BOT ordered R-11's did have route numbers but there were only ten of them and they were seldom seen. The NYCTA surpirsingly revived the system with the 200 R-16's in 1954. They had number signage for the BMT Eastern Division Routes 10,14,15 and 16.
When the R-27's started to arrive in 1960 the construction of Chrystie Street had already begun so they were given a letter system starting that ran from J to TT starting right after the IND HH.
The Triplexes were retired in July 1965 but the R-11's returned to service in August of that year. They and the R-16's were the only ones to carry the BMT route numbers in the days leading up to Chrystie Street.
Once Chrystie openned the R-16's received additional readings for the lettered routes on which they would be operating. In 1969 they received those marvelous multi-colored roll signs which had a different color for ever route.
The R-11's soldiered on and stubbornly refused to carry route letters and remaining faithful to the old BMT system. In October of 1967 they made an appearance on the B and carried #3 route signs. They ran off there last days on the Franklin Shuttle were they carried #7 signs. This must have been a little perplexing to riders if they were coupled to a pair of R-32's which carried the "SS" sign.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I few VMOs (Very Minor Observations), Larry.
The NYCTA surpirsingly revived the system with the 200 R-16's in 1954.
I would call that "course of least resistance." They didn't have the BMT route letters figured out yet, and needed something to put on the rollsigns. R-1s when they ran on the Fourth Avenue Local in the '50s had "2" on their rollsigns. R-10s when on the BMT also carried numbers. I never saw these in person.
When the R-27's started to arrive in 1960 [...]
My recollection is that R27s began to arrive in 1959. I've seen the 1960 date elsewhere, though. I saw my first R27 pictured in (IIRC( a picture in the Daily News. I was stunned, puzzled and disappointed when I saw the "QT" on the rollsign. I was hoping BMT numbers would be on the new equipment. I also disliked the "Broadway Brighton" designation. What can I say--railfans are neophobes :-)
Also I've seen references to the first GMC fishbowls arriving in 1960. On this one I can even more confidently say 1959. I was standing on Cortelyou Road near Flatbush Ave. chatting with a B23 operator when my first ever fishbowl went by on B41. I rudely cut off the conversation, and ran over to see it, with a big sign on the side: "Ride this New 1960 Bus." "Dat's absoid," I said to myself, "everyone knows it's 1959."
The first R-27s arrived in late 1960 (October or November). I remember the day well, I rode the first train home from school (Stuyvesant HS) to Brooklyn that day. I also remember being puzzled by the "QT" designation.
I remember the first fishbowl busses on the B-44 (Nostrand Ave.) route in the fall of 1959.
-- Ed Sachs
I concur with Eddie Sachs about the first fishbowl deliveries. I lived on East 26th & Avenue D in Brooklyn and remember seeing them on the B41 for the first time.
In December, 1959, we moved out to Suffolk County. So they were well around before the end of 1959.
According to the GM Production List, the NCYTA Fishbowls #1-190 were delivered in October and November of 1959.
Ah, the magic of "model year"! While this is a bit off topic, I'll summarize the education I got a few years back about "model year" in the automotive industry and explain how easy it is to get confused about when new model vehicles are introduced. "Model year" is actually a federally-regulated designation, and refers to the model of a vehicle that is the currently-offered model on sale on January 1st of that year. Ford used it in a creative fashion a few years back when they introduced their new-style pickup trucks early in the calendar year as the next year's model - in order to not interrupt the flow of new pickups to dealers, they produced the "old" model bearing the current year designation at some plants and the "new" model bearing the next year's designation at others, until by mid-December all plants were converted to the "new" model. It was therefore possible to have an "old" model pickup that was actually built nine months after one of the "new" models. They did a similar thing with the 1997/1998 Windstar models, where the 1997 Windstars were built between August and early December 1996, switching over to production of the 1998 Windstar in mid-December. None were delivered to dealers for sale, however, until January 2, 1997, thereby meeting the letter of the law. (It was good for me - I bought my 1996 Windstar in February of 1997 and because it was TWO model years old got one heck of a rebate and deal!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi Anon_e-mouse:
We are Windstar owners , also. How do you like yours?
we leased a 98 GL model in May of 98 for 2 yrs. It's dark forrest
green with the monster extended front driver's door and tip and slide
front seat. Next time, a 4 dr model for me. Like it very much, we had 7 troublesome years with a 91 Plymouth Grand Voyager LE , wood trim, light blue. In it last year , the paint started peeling off.
Thus prompted us to go "Ford".
Chuck( I love mass transit) Greene
Love it! It's an LX, a little bit lighter shade of green than yours, loaded - the dealer was already out of '97 models and this was his last '96 - no one wanted the electronic dash (which I was skeptical of at first but now I love it). It's got 62K now and (since warranty) the only problem has been the driver's side power window. In keeping with my real passion, its license plate reads TROLLEY (North Carolina plates, since we still have a house there - keeps the insurance costs lower). Can't say that I like the four door models as well - but then again we only have one child left at home during most of the year and our train-loving grandson lives in Nevada, so it mainly serves as my commuter vehicle.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are you sure it's not the clear coat finish that's peeling off? My Jeep has lost most of its clear coat from the roof and hood, and now it's starting to peel off the sides. It still runs like an R-32, BMT standard, Triplex, R-10, take your pick. 363,000-plus miles and counting.
Paul: I've heard two stories about how the R-10's got their BMT Route numbers. One was that the sign curtains of the R-10 and R-16 were sewn together. The other is that they did a straight swap as about 50 or so R-16's were assigned to the IND for the openning of the Rockaway Line and they were replaced by a like number of R-10's on the #15 Jamaica Line.
I don't know about the 1959 date for the R-27's though. According to the NYD Bulletin of 11/60 the first R-27's arrived on 11/2/60 and entered passenger service on 11/15/60.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, You must be right about the R-27s coming in 1960. I don't have the appropriate issue of the Bulletin but ERA Headlights said the R27s were ordered September 1959 for delivery a year later, so that would be 1960.
I can't say the delivery of the R27s was a happy moment for me. Until they came along the major subway fleets of the BMT were pretty much untouched.
It was yet another blow to the great era of electric traction which was crumbling everywhere during the immediate post war decade-and-a-half.
Paul: That was just a little before my time on the BMT. Prior to 1964 trips on the BMT were limited to vists to a cousin in Richmond Hills(usually R-16's on the #15) and the annual end of the school year trip to Coney Island.(Standards on the Brighton and return with Triplexes on the Sea Beach)
The arrival of the R-27's brought an end to one of the most colorful eras on the BMT. In a very short time the SIRT Motors,Lo-V's,Multis and BX Trailers all were gone.
By the time I got down there on my own starting in 1964 the R-27,30 and 30A's were firmly established as the new boys on the Southern Division while their older brothers the R-16's held sway on the Eastern Division. The Standards still were there in strength but the Triplexes days were numbered.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The arrival of the R-32s signalled the beginning of the end for the Triplexes and remaining BMT standards on the Southern Division.
It's quite possible that the R-10s and R-16s had their route curtains swapped out. I'm not so sure about the destination curtains. There is a photo in New York Subway Cars of an R-16 sporting an A sign whose destination curtain says, "Wash. Hgts-207th St." On the R-1/9s and R-10s, the destination curtain had, "Wash. Hts-207th St." In other words, the sign on the R-16 curtains had the g in "Heights" while the R-1/9 and R-10 sign did not. Both of my IND destination curtains say "Wash. Hts-207th St."
It also appears that the 30 R-10s which spent time on the Eastern Division were painted in the same olive drab as the R-16s. Or perhaps at least a few of them were.
Steve B, I have two exterior pictures and one interior picture of R-16 #6400 supplied to me in 1954 by the transit authority. These are 8 X 10 B&W and the signs are all IND. A Line. They read A over 8th Ave and Wash Hts over 207th St. Note no g in Hts. My written note under the picture states that the R-16's were delivered with IND signs but were converted to BMT. Incidentally the 6400's were all delivered before the 6300's. My memory is that the R-10's on the BMT were not painted but operated as they did on the IND with weathered red-orange numbers and stripping and no signage displayed at first. I left NY in 1957 so I don't know what might have happened after that.
Karl B
There were two (maybe one or two more) trains of R-10s that were shipped over to Jamaica service prior to the arrival of the R-16s so crews could become familiar with post-war cars. Those operated with route numbers on the car ends.
The first train (the ceremonial one) was made up of R-16s; I had an invitation (lost, alas, over the years) and it was a pleasant trip, with the band, the mayor, and a big "Wavecrest" canvas sign across the front. And, in a typical TA anti-BMT action--they took the first post-war BMT cars (other than the ten R-11s) and shipped them to the IND. It's a wonder they didn't send R-1s back the way they did in the late 1940s so the BMT wouldn't get the R-10s when they were new.
Does anyone know if the R-10s, when new, had both letters and numbers the way the R-11s did?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Perhaps you were thinking of R-26's. They arrived in '59
I think you mean October of 1968
Eric : I assume your referring to the appearance of the R-11's on the B. Your right it was 10/12/68 not 1967.
Sorry fot the typo.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Letter markings on the Eastern Division didn't appear on all routes right away, since the BMT standards were still holding down the fort there. I remember riding a JJ train of R-27/30s in March of 1968, and I'm sure the short-lived RJ route was marked accordingly right from the start. Didn't RJ trains also have those round colored disks on their guard chains the way NX trains did? The LL marking wasn't seen on Canarsie trains until the R-7/9s arrived in January 1969. At least that was when I saw those cars on the Canarsie for the first time. Get this: I referred to them as "new cars". Well, they certainly were newer than the BMT standards (even though they didn't run any better) and at least they had LL signs up front. Progress!
Yes, the RJ did have those round disks on the front of their cars. And when I ride the A i too refer to the R44's as new and the r38's as old, even though the R44's are 25 years old and only 5 years older than the R-38's. LOL
The oldest cars I still think of as "new" were the R16s, which I first saw on the Jamaica Line early in 1957. At the time they were the newest BMT-IND cars on the system.
But we're all trumped by an old gent I met at the ERA back then. He talked about how he and his friends hated seeing their beloved horsecars and cable cars being replaced by those newfangled trolleys!
I belive the last horsecar in New York was Chambers Street (?) in 1914. The last cable car was, I believe, Montague Street, also about 1914. Those dates are pretty late, considering.
One horse car line survived until 1916 or 1917 in Manhattan. There was a family friend of my father's who came to the States back in the teens, and he remembered seeing horse cars in Manhattan.
Let's face it: streetcars were an improvement over horse cars in more ways than one. Well, I'll leave it at that.
The most common explanation of the effect of Chyrstie Street is that it "merged the BMT and IND." I would express it a little differently.
Until Chrystie Street, the BMT and IND were routed and operated more or less in the same fashion as in pre-Unification days (extensions and abandonments excepted, of course).
Chrystie Street's most basic effect to date is that it opened up the IND 6th Avenue Line and its northern branches to trains from both the BMT Southern and Eastern Divisions, although the latter connection is no longer used.
In opening up the 6th, the BMT's Broadway Manhattan mainline was deemphasized, and the Nassau Loop, an important service for the BMT Southern Division was broken.
Since the Manhattan Bridge troubles the Broadway Line is virtually a ghost operation. Before Chrystie, the Broadway Line had approx. 30 expresses an hour on three services plus another 20 locals on two services. Now it has two local services and no expresses.
Many consider the Broadway to be the more convenient line, with its diagonal routing, and better connections to both IRT east and west side services and the 14th St. Line.
The Nassau Loop had four Southern Division rush hour services before 1957, then three services, two services immediately after Chrystie, and now has only one.
On the IND side, there is much less impact, except technically, although one might argue that Bronx and Queens IND riders have more choices to Coney Island.
The opening of the Chrystie St. connection brought an official end to the old BMT number marking code. It should be mentioned that by that time, only Eastern Division trains served by R-16s still carried number markings. Letter markings were firmly entrenched on the Southern Division lines by Novenber of 1967; however, letter markings didn't appear on the Eastern Division right away, mainly because BMT standards were still providing base service on those routes. I do remember seeing JJ trains of R-27s in March of 1968.
Joe Korman's website has original pamphlets scanned. These were widely distributed in late 1967 in anticipation of service changes. Additional pamphlets were distributed in mid-1968 which outlined additional service adjustments and changes.
Mass confusion prevailed during those first days right after the connection opened. There were stories of misrouted trains, among other things. I remember a newspaper article of how a motorman pushed the wrong button on a button board, and wound up crossing the Manhattan Bridge instead of, presumably, the Montague St. tunnel.
Sid, Dave & Paul. Thanks for the info. I got another answer to a question that has puzzled me.
Writing about the changes wrought by Chrystie Street and the Manhattan Bridge closure, I got a bug in my head.
Given the current dismal state of Southern Division service, and especially the orphaning of the Sea Beach Line, would it make sense to do a little switching for better balance?
What I'm thinking of is:
During the hours of approximately 6am-9pm Mon-Fri, possibly adding Saturday as well, same hours.
1. Make the current D Brighton Local the D Brighton Express from Brighton Beach to Concourse-205th.
2. Create a new Brighton Local "Q" to operate via the current N route via Broadway Local and Astoria.
3. Operate the N via the current Q route via 6th Avenue Express and 63rd Street tunnel.
In Short:
D - Brighton / 6th Ave. Express Brighton - 205.
Q - Brighton / Broadway Local Coney Island - Astoria
N - Sea Beach / 6th Ave. Express Coney Island - L.I.C.
No change to current service at other times.
POSITIVES:
Better balance for the whole Southern Division. I lived on the Brighton during my entire 26 years in Brooklyn, but I'm not sure it makes sense for both Brighton Locals and Expresses to have 6th Avenue Express service while Sea Beach has none.
Better consistency of Brighton Local / Broadway Local (same as pre-Chrystie) and Sea Beach Express / 6th Avenue Express.
NEGATIVES:
Loss of simplicity when D and N train routings change during off hours. Angry Brighton riders.
I'd really like to hear comments, especially from those who may use or are employed on the Southern Division and might be able to point out warps in my wisdom.
TA won't go for it because they would have to run the Q 24/7 to maintain Astoria service. Astoria has Speaker Vallone and most of the N line's ridership.
The current Q service is only part time, saving them money. Remember, that's the holy grail at 370 Jay st.The public be damned.
Another issue is the additional bottleneck it produces at Dekalb.
As to R46's point, I would keep the current arrangement during off-hours, Q would be Astoria during regular hours, N during off hours.
I don't see what the difference would be at DeKalb.
Well, the Brighton line can switch to the Montague tunnel tracks and the 4th Ave. locals can switch to the Brighton bridge tracks south of Dekalb. There's no issue of a crossover/fouling move but you're adding two switching operations where you currently have none. That's the bottleneck.
-Dave
The MTA's East River Crossing Study had dozens of alternatives, but had just a few it considered to be worth implementing.
Switching the N (via bridge) and Q (via tunnel) made the pass list.
It is not inconceivable that when the H tracks open and the A/B tracks close, the B/N/D will be via bridge and the M/Q/R via tunnel.
That interlocking [DeKalb Avenue] was rebuilt, supposedly to accomodate 90 TPH either way. What do we have going through there now ... During the peak hour from 501p to 600p, I count 48 TPH (6M, 10D, 9Q, 8N, 8B and 7R). Before Chrystie Street, when they had grade crossings north of the station, they managed 72 TPH, or was it higher?
So if having to throw a couple of switches when the interlocking is running less than 55% of capacity constitutes a bottleneck, the TA is in really sad shape.
No matter what is done, if the current status remains, people will need to change trains. They did before the Christie St. cutoff was built, and the'll continue to need to do it. In the "old" days, riders (assuming the rush-hour travel period) on the Brighton, West End and Sea Beach Expresses would need to change at Pacific or DeKalb, depending on the line, to catch a tunnel train to lower Manhattan and the Court and Lawrence Street stations in Brooklyn . Riders on the 4th Ave., West End and Brighton locals, and Culver Express, would need to change to catch Manhattan Bridge trains to mid-town Manhattan.
Want to make the N a 6th Ave. express? Then its riders needing to go to lower Manhattan/downtown Brooklyn would need to switch. Want to make the Q a tunnel train? The same there, re: its riders needing to go to mid-town Manhattan. Isn't that the way it also works now at Jay St., for some A/C and F riders?
Re: ability to handle 48 trains/hour: gosh, in the "old" days when there were at least seven train routes passing through the six-track DelKalb complex, the control tower seemed to be able to handle it. Imagine the northbound scenario: West End, Sea Beach and (I think) Culver Expresses bypassing DeKalb on the inner express tracks, with the Culver (I think) switching tracks just after Myrtle Ave. station to the south side track bound for the Nassau St. Loop, Brighton locals at the station on the inner "express" track proceeding straight ahead through the scissors crossing north of the station to the middle "tunnel" track, Brighton Expresses on that "express" track crossing over to the outside "bridge" track, 4th Ave. and West End locals on the "local" track crossing over to that middle "tunnel" track - and this went on for hours, I guess. How come it could be done then, and its a problem now? Or is it just laziness?
Mike Rothenberg
The rule books and signal systems in the "old days" allowed so many trains to run too. The trains before 1970 keyed by automatic signals regularly with far fewer station time automatics to deal with. If you had wheel detectors back then do you think 90 would be possible?
yes why is that? in the old days, i assume that there werent accidents everyday what is the mta scared of? bring back the old system!!!remove the grade timers and speed restrictions. i see hundreds of NYers dangerously jet across busy streets just to save a few minutes in travel time. Speed over safety. i think its worth the risk if there is any
My brain clouded over thinking about your routings, but suffice to say:
All Fourth Avenue trains not bypassing the station were on the outside tracks in DeKalb station ... 4th Ave. local trains therefore had to use the crossover 24/7.
All Brighton trains were on the inside platform tracks, so all Brighton Expresses had to cross over.
Even the Fourth Avenue express tracks were not unfouled during rush hours. Culver Expresses coming from the tunnel had to switch over to the Fourth Avenue express tracks north of the station ... a slow move given the curve and grade in the tunnel, followed by the switch. This was the site of the famous three-way home signal with the blue indication.
I don't think the TA has nearly the confidence in its employees' capabilities that its predecessors did. Maybe if the system were better managed, the employees would be more inspired.
And going back to today, it is slooow going through Dekalb WITHOUT having trains crossing in front of each other.
I am old enough to remember pre-chrystie and they did manage to keep everything moving pretty consistently. And even post-chrystie moved OK until everything fell apart in the 70's.
Now, with only one side of the bridge open, it makes sense to minimize the switching, since the bridge itself is a big bottleneck. If they ever open both sides at once (unlikely for another 200 years) maybe then there will be enough capacity to keep things going and allow various routings.
In the past they have done away with crossovers, such as at 96th and Bway. At one time locals and expresses went up both branches. They haven't done that since the 50's or so. And they don't mix and match at Jay st either. And it would probably improve flow at Franklin if they didn't.
This all seems to me like running a railroad for operating convenience rather than passenger convenience.
You wouldn't run a business like that.
No. Not for convenience. If something slows down the operation, it is in everyones interest to speed it up.
I personally would not want to change things. I need to go uptown, so having every train go uptown is convenient for me.
Of course, for those going downtown it means a change of trains. They sometimes have to wait.
If we had trains going both places, with the switching and backup involved, they would also wait.
You'll never get a "D" to go fast enough to provide decent express service with the current fleet. The R40 "Q"s, even as locals, will dust them every time. Of course, you could put all the R40s on the "D" and give the "Q" local the R68s.
Wayne
Everyone seems to feel the R68s are turtle-like?
Why? Different control equipment? Performance designed out of them? For what reason?
Back when, Triplexes were not nearly as nimble as Standards, but they managed to get up to speed and run their schedules very effectively. What's wrong with the R68s.
Lack of field shunting, for starters. Plus, the R-68s outweigh the slant R-40s, yet are powered with the same motors.
I'd love to see the slants on the D (or the A, for that matter). At least it would bring back some excitement on the express dash up CPW. With the R-68s, it's about as exciting as watching paint dry.
I ride both the R68 and the R40, and I can hear them from my house. There is little real difference in the speed.
2 trains leaving Newkirk at the same time pick up the same speed. The R68 only slows down because it has to. The R68s are also more comfortable. The R40s have them beat on the air conditioning though.
Dear Colleagues:
Back in 1972 five LIRR MU's were transfered to SIRT to help protect the service until the R-44's arrived. Four of these units were 2505,2509,2517 and 2646. Does anyone know the number of the fifth unit.
Thanks again for all your help.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In the NY Daily News Thursday June 10, page 8, is a article about sweaty passengers at the Grand Central Station Subway Hub - one of the system's busiest and hottest spots - will be able to seek refuge in zones of cool air created by an experimental $10 million system, officials say.
Starting in May 2000, streams of cold air will blast from the ceiling onto the #4, #5, and #6 line platforms - creating areas that will be 20 degrees cooler at certain spots.
After the good folks of SubTalk reads the rest of the article, your most cool thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
You sure it's the Daily news, and not the Post? Are you sure it's page 8? Cause I can't find it....
-Hank
It was the Daily News, I found it on their web site.
Hank, it was in the early edition of the Daily News for Thursday June 10, not the sports final.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
What remains to be seen is if they will maintain the system. For years, the Brooklyn Bridge Station on the Lex had an artesian well water cooling system that actually did reduce the temperature by 10-15 degrees but it was abandoned as too expensive.
It is only chilled water circulated through pipes and small fans to blow air over them. The pipes have been in place since last year.
Yeah but down in the 7 station it's still gonna be hot, right? You know the 7 station there has gotta have alot of work done.
Being at the lowest level, it is always going to have leaks.
With its high ceilings, an a/c system wont work.
Since cold air is heavier than hot air, the height of the ceiling would only prevent the air-flow from a vent on the ceiling from being felt on the platform. It would net stop the cold air from the vent from mixing with the hot air on the platform and lowering the overall air temperature on the platform. Indeed, many large indoor spaces have central a/c vents the air-flow from which cannot be felt by those standing on the floor. The room temp is kept down anyway.
I'm wondering how the railcars using the South Brooklyn Railway, could operate, along with streetcars, on the MacDonald Ave. portion of their travel. Were the wheel flanges on the streetcars built with a shape identical to those of ordinary heavy freight cars or were they of typical streetcar design? Were the MacDonald tracks built with a rail profile designed for the rail cars or streetcars, assuming they were different? Or were they built as an "average" to accommodate both sets of wheel flanges? If the operation was in an area with no cross-streets, would there have been severe speed restrictions because either the freight cars, or streetcars, would have tended to derail owing to wheel flange-rail profile incompatibilities, requiring slow speed to keep "on track", so to speak?
Thanks.
Mike Rothenberg
I'm no expert on the subject. This was before my time. My experience with the NY&A street running on the Bushwick Branch and with Trolley cars at TMNY might help.
Trolleys can run without a problem on full size railroad, but at the switch frogs can be troublesome. Some trolleys have smaller wheels and flanges, and "get lost" so to speak in a big frog meant for a locomotive.
Trolley rail will support engines and freight cars without a problem. Low speed of course. The flange ways are ussually gouged out when the first axle passes.
While being no expert I could reasonably assume that there is no difference in flang clearances for a streetcar/freight or subway car.
BTW, I once heard a story from a friend of mine who used to live in Kensington -- along the SBK running route. He recalled seeing one of the first deliveries of the R-44 cars down McDonald Ave. and had said that the cars were loaded with bricks, apparently up to the ceilings! He had always thought this was strange. Taking an educated guess I'd surmise that the bricks may have been used to weight the cars down to avoid derailing -- particularly at switches and curves --as they were pulled along the streetcar tracks to Coney Island yards. Or those bricks may just have been in the cars for some building project at CI and they merely used the empty R-44's as a transport, a la "killing two birds with one stone".
In any event, maybe someone else frequenting the SubTalk posts may be able to help out here.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
There are differences between standard railroad wheels and streetcar wheels. If my mental picture is right, the flanges on rr wheels are deeper and the wheel tread is a bit wider; one museum I know has a special drop-in device for track switches so that the streetcars can use the railroad-track section (which is constructed differently for diesels, electric locomotives and interurbans).
When I was a kid, I remember seeing short freight trains running down McDonald Avenue, pulled by electric steeplecabs, and moving at slow speed. They couldn't operate very fast because once past the unpaved section at Ditmas Avenue, it was street running all the way, with lost of local vehicular traffic on the tracks and lots of cross streets.
I remember delivery of R-10s, R-12s,or R-14s--I was under age 10 and the thing that stayed in my memory was not the number of side doors but the brownish-grey colors and the orange stripe--I think they were pulled in trains of 20 cars or so, but might be wrong.
One of the "famous" things about the SBK was the tying of restraints around some old box cars so they could get through the 38th Street tunnel without getting stuck. That has the sound of another urban legend, but it does seem to have been true.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Streetcar wheel profiles have a narrower tread and a flange that
is both narrower and shallower as compared to rapid transit and
class 1 railroads. On straight sections of T-rail they are all
compatible. I think McDonald Ave was girder rail though, and
that causes some problems because it has a built-in fixed flangeway.
Wider-wheeled cars have a tendency to climb up on their flanges
and possible derail on girder rail. At very low speeds it's usually
OK. On curves and switches the large-wheeled cars will usually
force their way through, but it beats up the track quickly.
< One of the "famous" things about the SBK was the tying of restraints around some old box cars so they could get through the 38th Street tunnel without getting stuck. That has the sound of another urban legend, but it does seem to have been true. >
That is true. The TA publication "Transit" had an article about this late '50s. It seems that some freight cars have a tendency to sag and bulge when they get old, and the clearances in the SBK/West End tunnel are not generous, so something which the TA humorously characterized as a "corset" was applied to such cars to make sure they would make it through the tunnel.
Peggy Darlington & I will be doing this "Field Trip" a second time on Tuesday June 22nd for those of you that had other commitments on June 4th, e.g. Subway Series ;-p
We'll gather at WTC at 6 PM on Track 4/5, and proceed to Newark's Penn Station where we'll pick up the PCCs. We'll also incl. at least two photo ops (Orange St. & EOL) ... so far the same plan that Sid of NJ used, hay if you can't improve on it, why change it !
Comming back Peggy has added PATH stops at Harrasion, Grove, Exchange Place, Pavonia, and Hoboken to see the sites. She's working on a write-up that we'll pass out. From there we'll return to NYC via the 33rd route & stop at stations along the way that each have something unique about them, incl. a run by closed 28th St Stn.
Peggy has figured that getting on/off will cost about $6 (e.g. Path is $1 & PCC is $1, but Orange St & end of PCC line will cost addl dollar)
You can buy a 2-trip pass on PATH at WTC, & tickets at Newark's Penn Stn, but bring a few extra SBA or paper dollars.
For those that just want to do the PCC portion you can leave us at Newark's Penn Stn & get home early, for the rest it will take a bit longer to then the last time (I cought a 8:15 LIRR 6/4)
Reservations: Advance reservations not necessary, but we would like to get some idea of how many plan to join us, so reply here or click on my name, up top, and send me private e-mail.
Mr t__:^)
P.S. .... BTW, in case you haven't seen it in the "Events" section of this site you will have another chance to ride a PCC, well two if you count the new museum at Brookly. I'm refering to the special event at Shoreline/Branford June 26th & 27th. They'll be bringing out many of their NYC trolleys & subways, incl. #1001 the FIRST pcc to enter revenue service in the US.
But for you purest the planned 6/22 Field Trip on Newark's PCC will incl. commuters giving you strange looks & pushing to get on/off the train ;-)
Mr t__:^)
I've been trying to reach Olga Rodrigo, the station manager for the R at Court Street for months. She does not answer phone!!! Is she sick or is the notion of a station manager another sham by the TA to trick customers into thinking that they are responsive to the public???
The number is (718) 243-5075 or 5328 if anyone wants to try calling themselves.
Does anyone know of a number to complain about TA employees failing to do their job???
Speaking of failing to do their job...
Every morning at Court Street there are cops standing around waititing for someone to jump the turnstyles, meanwhile there are people lighting cigarettes as they exit the turnstyles!!! What is the law on this one??? These people should wait till their on the street!!! What's more people smoke all the way down the stairs to the turnstyle and then throw their buts on the ground outside the token booth.
If Cops and TA employees would bother to do their jobs the subway and the city would be better!!!
I don't know if you realize this or not, but no one here can do anything about any of the numerous complaints about the system. This is a FAN site, not an EMPLOYEE or TA site. If you want to complain about the TA, I suggest you send an email to voicers@edit.nydailynews.com, which is the email address for the Voice of the People in the New York Daily News. Also, if you are noticing a problem at Court St, you are certainly close enough to both the Jay St. and Livingston St. TA office buildings. They have a public accomodations office, which is where they handle such complaints. As for your complaint about the cops not doing their job, again, send an email to the Daily News, or contact the CCRB at 1 Police Plaza, or the Mayor's Office.
-Hank
Thank you.
Chris- You can write her:
at Field Manager (her name)
New York City Transit
Division of Stations
Room 427-4
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
regarding the smoking: ANYWHERE in the subway it is illegal--stairways, mezzanines, elevated or open cut platforms, between train cars.
Now the harsh reality: usually the cops wont do anything unless they light up inside the turnstile.
What then is an effective way to get the cops interested in this health and safety issue???
Also, what's the deal with smoking at the top of the subway stairs. Is there an aloted number of feet before the first step of a subway entrance that smoking is not permitted.
Also, what does the law say about bus stops and bus shelters??? Are bus stops leagally defined and who has the authority to insure that they are clean and safe and smoke free??? Does the city paint the line on the curb or does the TA paint the line??? In other words which city agency is dropping the ball by not enforcing a smoke free area in which to wait for a bus???
three feet on any side is the rule for snow removal. Bus stops- I dont know the rule on smoking there!
The Cops- Maybe we have to contribute to the PBA (just kidding!) all you can do is tell the officer that there is someone smoking in the subway. I have seen officers give out tickets to those smoking outside of the turnstiles !
First, I'll preface my remarks by stating that I am a non-smoker. My entire family, myself included, is averse to tobacco smoke, and in particular one of my children is EXTREMELY allergic to it. Consequently, I don't tolerate cigarette (or other) smoking much of anywhere.
That being said:
I don't see what the fuss is about permitting smoking in designated portions (read: the far ends and/or the areas farthest away from the stairwells) of elevated or open cut platforms. In open platform areas people are going to smoke, regulations or no, simply because there's no one to enforce it. However, if an area is designated where smoking is permitted, most smokers are courteous enough that they will go to those areas, and will use an ash receptacle if one is provided. There will likely be far fewer cigarette butts on the platforms with this approach than with the current one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree. The problem is that the law is not clear enough for smokers to understand. That is why I would like to see it spelled out. If they have to paint a line outside a subway stairway or around a bus shelter so be it. Just so long as smokers understand where they can and cannot smoke. It should also be made clear that if you throw your butt into the street you are going to get a ticket. Lack of enforcement leads to these abuses.
Bus shelters are considered 'street furniture', and as such, open public areas. Until the nicotine nazis decide to force a law prohibiting smoking outside, on the street, it'll be allowed. Bus stops are regulated by the DOT, and those yellow lines on the curb have absolutely no signifigance, no matter who paints them (simply because, anybody could)
-Hank
PS- by my attitude, you may think I'm a smoker. I'm not; but I do think the government is infringing too much on our rights when they seek to regulate so much nowadays.
NJT has a line at Newark Penn--Smoke on the far ends of the platforms (other side of the line). I've seen the transit police walk right by smokers on the no smoking side of the line. I have told people-"other side of the line" and have gotten cussed out!I have gotten the transit police- they move for the cops and when the cop leaves they come back. I get the cops again and you know the rest... A designated smoking zone wont work because the smokers insist on smoking where and when they want to and to blazes with anyone else. It never ceases to amaze me how they are so hooked that they cant even wait till thwey leave the subway--they walk out fo the trainm with lighter in ahdn and cigarattye in the mouth ready to light! Smokers are also less productive--When I had a desk job, I did not get a 15 minute break every hour but they did!! No other form of drug addiction is as accepted as smoking. I've seen people dying of lung cancer smoking through a tracheotomy( Hole in the throat)! Snoking has killed 3 members of my immediate family(Both parents and an aunt). It is no fun watching people rot away from the inside.
Smoking in the subway--no! I dont want the second hand smoke!
What you say about the mentality of smokers is so true. Here's another example: I go to a resturant with my friends who are smokers. The waiter asks "do you want smoking or non-smoking?" thinking of my friends, I say "smoking". Now, no smoker has ever done the same for me. That is, when asked the same question, no smoker has ever though of me and said "non-smoking please." This is because smokers think only of themselves and never of the people around them. There are some who argue that smokers have rights. I might be more open to that arguement if there was a single example, in all the world, where a smoker even considered the rights of anyone but themselves! I am all for more rights for everyone, but what burns me up is the assumption, by smokers, that only they should be entitled to more rights! Sure, they'll tell you the issue is about freedom, but when it comes to the freedom of non-smokers to be just as big a jerk as the guy blowing smoke in your face, they simply won't stand for it. Why? because to them its never been about freedom, its always been about THEM.
Let's take all these dam smokers out and tie them to the third rail.
Well, even most of my SMOKING freinds refuse to sit in smoking sections. Because of the city law prohibiting smoking in restaurants that did not meet certain requirements, to meet them, most restaurants installed what I like to call 'the aquarium', a glass storefront inside the store, that seperates those killing themselves slowly from the rest of society. The smoke fills these aquariums so badly, you have to be a reall die-hard to eat in one.
As for the productivity, I agree. I once had it out with a boss who told me I couldn't sit down during my shift, by argueing that he allowed the smokers to go outside (this was a take-out Pizza Hut) and smoke whenever they felt like.
-Hank
Yes, They have their priorities all wrong. Here's another story: I was taking the bus up to Woodstock one time. In the back of the bus sitting next to me was a mother and her small boy of about 4-5 years old. The bus made a stop and the driver announced that it would be a few minutes so right away all the smokers were going to get off to smoke. The mother was one of them. The little boy begged her not to leave him on the bus by himself but the cigarettes won out. Now, at no time was the kid in any real danger but the message was clear to the boy and to everyone else that her child the second most important thing in her life.
NYCT has a "SMOKE-FREE WORKPLACE" policy. There are very stiff penalties for managers who refuse to enforce it. Since station and RTO personnel come in contact, frequently, with the public, managers (especially the station managers) who don't use police to enforce the 'No Smoking' Laws are technically in violation of TA Policy.
Now you're talking. After all, is it a law or isn't it?
What are you talking about?? The government has been regulating the rights of non smokers for years by allowing smokers to treat them like dirt. The way I see it this is a civil rights issue. Why do smokers have the right to throw thier butts in the street while I don't have the right ot throw my candy wrapper in the street???
I believe that I should have the right to be just as big a jerk as the guy who breathes smoke in my face. Who is the government to say that that guy has the right to be a jerk and I don't???
I say Power to the people. Smokers say 'power only to smokers'
Next you'll probobly tell us the government has no right to insist that dogs be on a leash. Or that its okay for people to spit by the token booth, just so long as they don't do it inside the turnstyles.
I don't mean it in that vein. The way I mean it is..(hard for me to word the sentence)
Congress is considering a bill that would make it ILLEGAL to sell, rent, or distribute violent movies, videos, games, books, etc. to minors. This can include books by many popular authors, and is tantamount to censorship. It would require that books of a violent or sexual nature (and this includes 'Lolita', by Nabakov, and 'Of Mice and Men', by Steinbeck) and is tantamount to censorship. I was exposed to all of this as a youth (which some may still consider me) I have books with pictures of bodies. I have everything that Clancy has ever written. I enjoy movies like 'Evil Dead'. I stole my first Playboy (from my dad) at 12. I have not committed a crime in my life. I did not plot to blow up my school. I did not shoot people who teased me (and believe me, I got teased something fierce) I never burned down a neighbors house. I never raped anyone.
And millions of children grow up in similar ways, and they don't do those 'bad' things either. Yet here comes Mr. Government, saying this sort of upbringing will turn me into a violent psychopath. I got news for the planet, it ain't society, it's the child and the parents. How many of those young muderers, rapists, and arsonists were Boy Scouts? How many of them worked with Dad on a Saturday morning? How many of them went on family vacations 2 or 3 times a year?
So far as I've heard, none of them, but I'm sure all the facts are unknown.
That kind in Arkansas that shot up his school. He was 12. His family taught him how to shoot a rifle before he learned to ride a bike! Did a violent movie prompt him to kill people? Would he have done such a thing if his father had taught him something besides how to use a firearm?
All this talk about V-Chips and censorship is just knee-jerk reaction to a few incidents perpetrated by persons who were brought up poorly, seriously disturbed, or both.
-Hank
I think that we agree! I think the government should be smaller and I think that it should be less involved in people's affairs.
I don't think that cigarettes or tobacco should be banned.
I don't think that anyone over 18 should be denied the right to drink or to buy cigarettes or to rent any movie or buy any book they want to. I don't think that 18 year olds should be denied a job in a resturant simply because you have to be 21 to serve alcohol. I think that people who smoke should be able to smoke as much as they want. But they should do it in the privacy of their own homes! Not in public!
I am a cat person. I don't like dogs. I don't have anything against dogs, I don't think that dogs should be banned. If someone wants to have a dog, I say "let them". If their dog wants to run around in their yard that's great. But they should be responsible enough to keep their dog out of MY yard and in public they should keep their dog on a leash.
If their dog gets out and goes into my yard, I understand, I'm not going to shoot the dog. I probobly won't even call the cops. But the standard cannot be that everyone's dog is allowed to run around loose.
That is what smokers are demanding. The right for their smoke (dog) run loose through the streets and subways and resturants and parks and beaches.
I am not against smokers or their freedom, I am however against their arrogance and their abuse of the rights of others.
My father (he of the 3 packs a day) would agree with you, only he'd change every 'smoker' reference to 'non-smoker'. While he agrees that it's a disgusting, unhealthy habit (and told me he'd kick me out of the house if I took it up when I was 12), he believes he has rights, too. He feels that the individual businesses should have the right to say whether or not to allow smoking, and all people should have the right to eat, sit, smoke, or drink whatever they want. Of course, he (like me) refuses to sit in the aquarium at local restaurants, and will instead leave the table several times during the meal to engage in his addiction.
My personal policy is this (as a person who frequents sporting events): I'll leave you alone, but you better put it out if I ask nicely.
But I don't think it has any place indoors, or in subways or subway cars, where the air doesn't circulate, or is recirculated. Outside on the street is just fine, as these areas belong to 'all the people'.
-Hank
I disagree. Just as dogs are not allowed to run around in an outdoor playground or school yard, Smoke too should not be allowed to run free. You think that the streets are free but they are not. No open alcoholic beverages are allowed on the street. Dogs must be on a leash. We are not free to litter. We must clean up after our dogs. Cigarette smoke is a dog. It litters the air. Why should non smokers have to stand in the rain while smokers huddle in the bus shelter??? Why should smokers be allowed to litter with their Butts but the rest of us should be frowned upon for throwing down a candy wraper or not cleaning up after our dogs??? Or spitting on the streets for that matter. I believe that the city is responsible to provide a safe clean and clearly designated area to wait for a bus. The United States Surgeon General says that second hand Smoke is toxic and causes cancer. The Surgeon General says nothing about littering or spitting or dog droppings. The city has an obligation to provide an environment where someone can wait for a bus without getting cancer.
Like a bus shelter, Midtown Manhattan is a confined space, so are the parks and the steps of the library or the Metropolitan. So are playgrounds and school yards. So are sidewalk cafes and doorways to public and private buildings. Are you saying that non-smokers have no right to these spaces??? Remember, every time a smoker exhales in public, the rights of a non-smoker to move freely through public streets is being violated!!! If the city wants to build a special "Dog Run" for smokers in the parks or on the street, I think that would be a great idea. But if you are not forced to put out your cigarette in public, why should I be forced to put up with your cigarette in public.
While inhaling second hand smoke may be annoying and smell disgusting, there is precious little evidence that it causes cancer. Quoting from a recent column by Walter Williams:
"The past year hasn't been a good one for the EPA -- they've faced
another stunning rebuke. Last July, U.S. District Court Judge William L. Osteen found reason to nullify the EPA's 1992 report that claimed
second-hand smoke to be a class A human carcinogen and cause of lung
cancer. He found that the EPA knowingly, willfully and aggressively put out false and misleading information. "
Dogs don't cause cancer either but still they must be on a leash. radio playing causes no health risks but isn't tollerated in well defined areas Including the Subway and the public library. This is not a matter of health but a matter of civil rights. One group, Smokers, demanding rights at the expense of another group, non smokers.
If the smoker's arguement about freedom holds up, they must also believe that they are entitled to play their radio in the library. Well non smoking is my radio and I should be entitled to play it just as smokers are entitled to play theirs. But smokers are not interested in what's fair, they are only interested in themselves. They not only want to play their raido on the subways or in the libraries of the world, but they also want to deny others the right to play their radios as well. If basic freedom is really the smoker's arguement, why does the smoker insist on denying freedom to everyone else???
In addition to smoke theres also the risk of fire, a smoldering cigarette butt in a trash can starts a fire which in a subway tunnel can be deadly PERIOD. It's disrectecful of other riders comfort and also unsafe in the event a fire was started due to someones careless act of tossing a cigarette into the trash can or landing on something combustible....
Anyone see the new posters asking us not to eat or drink on the train now? This has finally spread over from the buses.
It's always been a rule on the books, and was rarely enforced. I've been stopped getting on the SIR, but there are so few conductors, I usually see the same faces. Part of the charm, I guess; as long as I take my crap with me, they say nothing about it.
When Dinkins was running for mayor, there was a photo of a candidate (I honestly can't remeber who) on the subway with a cup of coffee, saying 'Hey look, I commute too!' There was a note in the accompannying column about how he was breaking the rules.
-Hank
Yes and let's not forget that there are vendors inside the turnstyles which sell food and drinks. They should have cops waiting by the food stand at Times Square waiting to cuff anyone buying a candy bar!
Just out of curiosity, do Subway vendors sell Cigarettes??? Chewing Tobacco??? I know they sell gum, which the city has complained about.
Food can be a problem on the subway even if passengers dispose of the trash properly. Quite frankly food smells and I don't like it. I also feel quite uncomfortable sitting next to someone squeezing pack of ketchup onto a plate of fries in thier lap, while my leg is touching theirs. Like with cigarettes, accidents will happen and I don't want to have to think about it. I must say that I drink coffee every morning on the subway. My cup has a lid and a small hole to drink from.
Another one that ticks me off is people clipping their nails on the subway. I have even seen cops doing this. It makes me want to bring my electric shaver with me in the morning and get a shave while I ride to work. I don't think there is a subway sign that says you can't to that!
I actually saw a man shaving one morning on NJT using a cordless razor. And, one Saturday afternoon about three years ago, two young women shaving their legs, with shaving cream and a disposable razor no less! (They boarded at Matawan, dressed real fancy - guess they just ran out of time before heading to the City for a night of partying. They took the seats across from the washroom, so it wasn't hard for them to clean up afterwards.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Makeup. I hate to see them applying makeup. I figure one day they'll be applying eyliner when the train goes into emergency, and they pop their eyeball with the pencil.
Worse is on the x-bus, when they decide to put on enough perfume to cover the BO of every person they encounter during the day.
-Hank
Somehow make-up doesn't seem so bad. If someone wants to poke their eye out that's fine with me. I'm more conserned about other people's doings spreading over in my direction. Perfume, now that's another matter.
Another problem I see is Bicycles, Strollers and excessively large packages.
Eating, drinking, nail-clipping, shaving, leg shaving (!), makeup application, perfume, and seat-hogs! Lo and behold, it's the "Sound Off!" East Coast Division, and I feel right at home.
"Sound Off!" is the complaints (some say the whining) column in the Metra newsletter "On the (Bi)Level." You can see the newsletter at:
http://www.metrarail.com/Bilevel/otbl0499.html
The motto on the masthead of the page is "...setting new standards of thoughtlessness, grouchiness, pettiness, elitism and self-absorption." (CHICAGO SUN-TIMES, June 12, 1994). And all of these complaints and more (talking! snoring! playing cards! reading newspapers over people's shoulders!) are read every month in this column, along with the frequent "you're riding public transit: deal with it or drive!" responses.
Don't forget my favorite -- Clueless Backpackers.
People with strollers at rush hour are much worse than those with backpacks. It seems no one wants to bother FOLDING the damned thing and holding or carrying the little brat. Instead, no matter how crowded the train, they force their way in with the open stroller (and child) and stand right in front of the door. Then, they don't move for anyone.
-Hank
Wow, I really have to say that I THOUGHT I had seen everything!!!
They weren't being indecent about it, actually - it was just rather unusual, to say the least!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How many of us are actually old enough to believe we've seen everything?
-Hank :) (definately not)
[Food can be a problem on the subway even if passengers dispose of the trash properly. Quite frankly food smells and I don't like it. I also feel quite uncomfortable sitting next to someone squeezing pack of ketchup onto a plate of fries in thier lap, while my leg is touching theirs. Like with cigarettes, accidents will happen and I don't want to have to think about it. I must say that I drink coffee every morning on the subway. My cup has a lid and a small hole to drink from.
Another one that ticks me off is people clipping their nails on the subway. I have even seen cops doing this. It makes me want to bring my electric shaver with me in the morning and get a shave while I ride to work. I don't think there is a subway sign that says you can't to that!]
Chris, I'm surprised you can go out of the house in the morning. These little things that annoy you are just a part of everyday life. You are adamant about smoking in the subway because it is dangerous; however, you freely admit to bringing scalding hot coffee onto the crowded trains. Accidents will happen, as you have said yourself. I myself would take my chances with a smoker on the platform rather than a “latte grande” carrier on the subway.
Remember this, when you start writing laws and rules that ban everything nuisance, where will it end? The next banning may be people who don't like what you are doing on the subway. Think about it, and relax a bit. You're taking life way too seriously!
BTW, I AM NOT a smoker!
Jim K.
Chicago
My problem with smoking is that it's illegal on the subway, yet the TA refuses to enforce the law. If they made a law about coffee cups It would change my lifestyle slightly and I might grumble about it for a day or two but I would comply. I would also add that I throw my container in the trash, not on the ground, another overlooked violation which smokers completely ignore. I don't EXPECT others to clean up after me. As I said in an earlier post, if the TA wants to make special enclosed areas for smoking, with ash trays provided, I'm all for it.
Got news for you, there IS a law against eating or drinking in the subway, and it's not enforced either.
-Hank
[There is a law against eating or drinking on the subway.]
No, there isn't. There is a law (or rather a "regulation") against carrying open containers of liquid, but none against eating or drinking per se, I'm pretty certain. That's why the signs ask people not to do it, instead of warning them about fines and the like.
It's not just a matter of insufficient police enforcement of anti-smoking laws. Self-enforcement is a big part as well. Many smokers are (or claim to be) hooked on the habit, so it's no surprise that many of them will try to sneak smokes where they shouldn't.
Actually, at least in my own experience, smoking on the subway isn't a terrible problem. Most of the furtive smokers I've seen, and there haven't been that many, seek out-of-the-way locations like the ends of outdoor platforms. I can't think of the last time I've seen someone smoking on a crowded platform let alone on a train.
Here in Chicago they are starting to enforce no smoking on the platform. But these obnoxious steet musicians are still playing their so called music for many unwilling audiences in the subway platforms. What is wrong with this picture?
This is an embarrasing story, but what the heck:
I gotta admit to you guys that I got alittle cocky about three years ago while on my way to a relative's in Flatbush. I occassionaly light up a cigar on weekends and was trying to light one while making my way from the platform of the #2 at Parkside Ave. to the exit gates. All of a sudden a young black kid walks up to me -- I think he's going to ask me for a light or something else -- and proceeds to whip out an NYPD SHEILD! BUSTED! This guy was the ultimate in undercover. Obviously a rookie, but dressed like all these kids, with the baggy clothes, boots and "urban attitude". I was dumbfounded and quite embarrassed since I should have known better.
I went through the motions, explaining to him that I wasn't even able to light it and was existing at the time. To no avail, he wrote me up, but did me the favor of not noting my place of employment on the ticket. He said he would write "unemployed" the reseasoning being if I was to fight it and go before a judge he'd be easier on someone out of work than a working stiff, who -- not only being finacially able to pay should -- supposedly know better.
To make a long story short, I just payed the darn thing realizing the errors of my ways.
Doug aka BMTman
If you didn't light it, it seems to me no crime has been committed. My point in all of my previous posts has never really been about smoking, it has been about the law.
JUST WHAT IS THE LAW???
1. Just which laws is the City willing to enforce???
2. Why are some people exempt from the law, (smokers who throw their butts in the street, or me with my cup of coffee on the train in the morning) while others are not exempt???
3. Are there patterns of racism, sexism, or discrimination hidden in the city's arbitrary enforcment habits???
4. Does the city's arbitrary enforcement policy carry over to more serious crimes???
5. Just which crimes does the city take seriously anyway???
6. Does the city's willingness to overlook some crimes for some people affect people's attitudes about crime and about the city and do these attitudes in turn have an affect on crime???
These are the real questions. Everyone thinks only of themselves. I drink my coffee on the train and don't care what the city has to say about it. Smokers throw their butts in the gutter and gloat about how they are getting over on the environment and the taxpayers who have to clean up after them. No one stops to consider that maybe our little conspiracies with the cops, who look the other way, might be at the expence of someone elses freedom or fortune.
Regarding your coffee on the subway, there is a rule against carrying open beverage containers. Whether that would include a cup with a small drinking hole is another matter. I don't know the answer to that. But you should keep the rule in mind.
[Every morning at Court Street there are cops standing around waititing for someone to jump the turnstyles, meanwhile there are people lighting cigarettes as they exit the turnstyles!!! What is the law on this one??? These people should wait till their on the street!!! What's more people smoke all the way down the stairs to the turnstyle and then throw their buts on the ground outside the token booth.]
I'm reasonably sure that smoking is prohibited anywhere on subway property - not just in the fare paid zone. So you're correct in saying that smokers should wait until they're in the street to light up. Of course, if the cops aren't doing anything about it (Not my job) ...
Heck, the subject line even rhymes, doesn't it?!?!
I'm going to be in NYC on Monday afternoon with time on my hands - arriving via PATH from Newark around 1:30 or so (my younger daughter will be taking the LSAT at the Hilton Gateway Center at 1 PM, and she has asked me to "escort" her there). I'll have to be back in Newark around 6:30-7 PM. I've ridden every mile of revenue service trackage already and taken most of the Transit Museum tours, so if anyone has any suggestions I'm open to them. Especially if any of the TA folks that frequent this forum will be at the controller or working the doors!
I'll check this thread through Friday noon at work and then (hopefully) over the weekend - assuming that Comcast gets my cable modem installed tomorrow afternoon. If they don't, I'll come into the office Sunday afternoon and check.
Thanks in advance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At the LA MTA site: www.mta.net, there is info about the opening of the red line extension. Its pretty interesting. How are their station's so much more elaborate than any recent extensions in NYC.
"How are their station's so much more elaborate than any recent extensions in NYC."
Because lots of people in New York already ride the subway and don't need to be convinced that the subway in general is the best travel option. Give them a route that goes where they want to go, and they will ride it.
On the other hand, L.A. hasn't had a subway for decades (the old Pacific Electric's Hollywood Subway) and is very car-dependent. Many people there believe subways are dingy, dark, and unsafe. Therefore, elaborate stations with lots of artwork and color are needed to entice people out of their cars and convince them that subways aren't as bad as they think they are.
Actually, there is a whole segment of the city's population that goes through great lengths to avoid the subway. Whether they can be lured back is another matter. A lot of it is image and ego -- to a certain group of people, winners ride in cars and losers ride in subways.
goes to show how PLASTIC people are in LA.....
I can kind of understand that. It looks better to your date if you drive her home, not escort her back by subway! Also when you own a car, it's more impressive, a concrete example of your status. Any joe (nerd, geek, loser, etc.) can ride the subway, there's nothing impressive about that.
[ Because lots of people in New York already ride the subway and don't need to be convinced that the subway in general is the best travel option. ]
True, but take a look at the Jubilee Line Extension in London. Its stations are very elaborate, yet London's subways has been around for a very long time. I think it's a matter of pride.
But even if you want to take the subway, unless it goes door-to-door, then what? Have you ever tried to walk in LA? NOBODY walks in LA.
Most people from LA would die if they ever got more than 20 feet from their car. Kinda like a fish out of water. Actually, if you ever have a friend from LA over, try it, it's fun to watch their expressions when you bag the car at a commuter rail station, take the train in, take the subway, and walk a bit. Of course, I'll take walking and extra block over the air quality madness over there. Who are they kidding about selling 10% 0 emissions cars by like 2005 anyway? Nobody wants and electric car, and certainly not californians..
Amen to that! My older daughter is married to a native Californian (they live in Las Vegas now) and he won't walk to the corner store! He has absolutely no comprehension of my love for steel wheels on steel rails, and isn't quite sure what to make of his son's fascination with them either (hey, I know the answer to that one, he inherited it from our side of the family!), but he does love the Lionel train I gave my grandson for Chanukah a year and a half ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am speaking as a resident of Los Angeles.
I would trade the jazziness of the Los Angeles Red Line Subway with the functionality of the New York subway any day. The MTA here has pissed away millions of dollar on the Red Line and its elaborate stations. The money would have been better spent on more lines going more places in this far-flung metropolis.
When the IND was built in New York, it was was stated that the people "didn't get what they paid for, but they paid for what they got". Emphasis on paid. That goes triple for the situation here in Los Angeles.
All the new BART (San Francisco Bay Area) stations are huge and elaborate too. I don't know why they're bigger, but they suck up a lot more money than the older, simpler stations.
You can see pictures of the stations that haven't been built yet at
http://www.bart.org/westbay/station/index.htm
I took Amtrak from Santa Barbara down to LA on Saturday for opening day of the Hollywood redline subway extenstion. The five new stations on the hollywood extension all have unique themes and are rather Hollywood. The station at Hollywood and Vine is the most impressive. The ceiling is coverd with hundreads of blue film reals, support colums become palm trees with metal green leaves on the ceiling. Two huge movie projectors are on display. The passage way to the street is somewhere between Las Vegas and a grand hotel.
Yes, the red line was very expensive to build. I relized something interesing while talking to one of the Metro employes. The billions they spent on the subway were for saving the hollywood neighborhood (and others) as much as it was for transportation. Before the redline, Hollywood Bvd. was a seedy area going down hill. It was were Hue Grant went for a hooker. The Pantages theater was was a porn house. The area was over run by gangs.
People like to complain about the money waisted on fancy stations. Bottom line is: Building boaring plain stations would save a couple percent on the bill, that's about all.
The biggest draw back back of the redline is that there is a lot of LA it doesn't go to. LA is more spread out than New York, that is why subways will never be as feasable in LA.
The redline is very clean and safe (no graffiti, not even scratching). It has to be to attract people out of their cars. I do wonder how long it will be before someone smashes one of those projectors or starts snagging film reals that are at arms length.
I took a buch a pictures I hope to post soon. And also a note about BART. BART has the distict advantage of going a lot of places. I don't know how the SFO extension stations will look, but the other exetenstion stations opened it the last couple of years are nice, but still functional. They are nowhere near as far out as the hollywood stations. BART stations still look like subway stations, The hollywood stations look more like disneyland.
All this time in sub talk and we haven't even related stories that had humor......any funny happenings involving train crews and passangers would be welcome don't ya think........
There was a story told in T/O school car to us pertaining to a train crew at Brighton Beach over a decade ago. Apparently as a joke, a train operator was escorted into with cab by his conductor wearing very dark glasses and a blind man's walking stick. Unfortunately the folks at the terminal didn't see it as funny, nor did the folks who gave the crew days in the street, although it was told the arbitrator was snickering as he heard the case from the union.
The funniest thing that happened to me car equipment wise was on a train of R-30. I was cutting out a door to extinguish a fault light. When I cut it out, the adjacent panel's fault light illuminated. When I cut that one out I had another and another until I cut out all sixteen doors and still had the guard light. oh well.
One of my favorites is the story of the two homeless persons, a man and a woman who shall we say, were smitten - then bitten - one day. It seems that several years ago, 'love' found these two homeless individuals while living in the tunnels around Essex St. It the throws of passion, they placed an old mattress between the running rails of what they thought was an un-used tunnel. Unfortunately what they mistakenly thought was the earth was moving (in orgasmic proportions) was, in fact, a J train traversing the supposedly abandoned rails, in service. The female member of the couple suffered a bump on the head while the male lost the toes of one foot (which he carelessly forgot to move from the rail) when the train interrupted their moment.
For the more skeptical among us, I assure you that this incident actually took place. I had the 'Train Trouble Report' framed but it mysteriously disappeared a few years ago whenI moved to Concourse Yard.
Whenever there is an incedent involving a person being runover by one of the trains, it must be shopped for an inspection.
While I was at Coney Island Mant. shop in 1989 a funny thing took place.
The rookie car inspector is often the man assigned to do this gruesome task. The old hands in the shop found it funny to tease the new guy whenever these things occured.
One of the older men had a manequin arm in his locker waiting for an event such as this. He coated it with ketchup and secretly stuck it up in the truck of the lead car.
Well the rookie came out from under the train screaming and white as a ghost. Cruel and funny yet.
We did the same with a dolls head, eyes wide open, on top of a traction motor. The scream echoed through 207th St. shop. That was around 16 years ago and the car inspector on whom the prank was played, still will not speak to me - even though he's worked for me, on and off, for years.
When ENY Master Tower took over switch control at Metropolitan Ave. terminal, a small model board was installed in the dispatchers office. One of the motormen (recently retired) confiscated a wad of steel wool from a car cleaner and shaped a large rat out of it and placed it atop the model board. That was the initiation rite for any new dispatcher assigned there! A few months ago, the office was being re-painted. The dispatcher on duty had a good laugh when the painter discovered our mascot, screamed, and jumped off the ladder toward the door. After that, the rat was moved next to a trap on the floor by the refrigerator, head broken off, with the contents of a ketchup pack sprinkled all around.
That wasn't miss Flores was it? She's too nice for that.
I saw a huge rat on the platform at Franklin Av. on the Fulton IND. Now that platform has no columns, and no benches (what's that say about the neighborhood?) so the rat had no where to go and hide.
My train comes in, and I open the doors. All the people getting off had scared the rat. Now the little guy is running back and forth, up and down the platform, with no where to go! He runs onto the train, and every one gets up and stars screaming, and running! I grab the trusty Shoe Paddle/door stop/seat/window prop/foot rest/attitude adjuster/rat swatter. So I run after him and chase him down and he jumps to the track in between cars. Man did I laugh.
No, the dispatcher in question was on the midnite, she was there AM's on Mon. & Tues. I mentioned once before of being stuck behind a B train last year at 79 St. because a rat was riding in one of the cars. Probably got on at Stillwell because the garbage is kept under the B tracks. A cop used his stick to make lots of noise to scare it out of the car.
I was working the IRT Flatbush Line on New Year's eve a few years ago and my north motor at the terminal had this huge rat munching on some debris on the floor. When I boarded the train it ran off but the persistant little bugger decided he wasn't getting a "no lunch" today. Being my last trip, I isolated the car just before leaving the terminal and reopened at Atlantic for crowds. Next stop Nevins. BANG BANG. At Chamber's Street I heard some screaming, some laughter. Finally at 34th Street a TSS knocked on the door and asked about the rat. I sighed and told him "thats the new superintendant". He grabbed his shoe paddle and the rat went to see the ball drop.
Erik that was scandalous!
As most of you know, I consider myself a professional. And as such, I control my train to a degree, that I never run ahead of schedule.
One day I come into 36th Street and 4th Av in Brooklyn on the N. The tower has the holding lights lit. I pull out my hand written copy of the timetable (getting a printout is like pulling teeth) and check. Of course I'm exactly on time.
So I sit.....And sit......And sit.
After three minutes the genius Dispatcher in the tower gets on the radio. But not to me, no. To the command center.
"Command: this is Murphy tower. The 9:54 Nancy Astoria is at 36th Street and he's not moving."
So now those idiots join in:
"9:54 November Astoria, come in to control. 9:54, if you have a problem, let Control know."
Of course there were several choice expletives I had for them. But I maintained my professionalism. So I said this instead:
"Yes Control, there's a problem. It's those three yellow lights on the ceiling."
Silence............
Very quietly the holding lights went out. There was nothing further said on the radio. I flew down Fourth Av. and made up my time on the Sea Beach line. Very easy considering the lack of ridership there.
My favorite story:
I was working a booth in Brooklyn and two punks asked if they could ride for free since they had no money (supposedly). I had a tv monitor near the booth. As I like to do, I bluffed stating that I have police in the station (Could be true- the police like to hide so they nab the farebeaters). Number one said there were no cops and started to jump. Meanwhile, number two looked at the monitor and saw what he thought was a cop on the platform. Number one then won an olympic high jump gold medal jumping back over the wheel and both fled the station.
I dont know if there was a cop in the station, but what he saw was the "Conductor is located here" sign with a picture of a conductor! When a cop did stop by the booth I told the cop and both of us had a good laugh.
UTC meets at the Masonic Hall at 71 W 23rd St, NYC, NY 19th Floor (Near 6th Ave-Ave of the Americans). The next meeting is 19 Jun 99 at 6:00 with show at 7:15. Door fee $5.00, membership $30.00 per year. Web site is http://members.aol.com/glenn6398/utc.html.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Hi,
Yesterday I looked at the ERA website, which is
http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era/home.html
It seems that this website has been shut down or canceled.
What happened?
Thanks a lot.
Chaohwa
Guess he forgot to pay his AOL bill.. It has nothing to do with us here at www.nycsubway.org and he didn't send us any informational mail.
-Dave
Keep in mind that's the NY Division Website. The website is maintained by a member over in the Twin Cities. The National ERA lacks a website and should have one.
Phil Hom
ERA3620
Stafford VA
Robert Wukich, NYD-ERA's Webmaster, joined the military a few months ago. We should have the website back up shortly under a new Webmaster, with a different URL. We'll publish it when available.
BTW, ERA's e-mail address is era@juno.com.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Does anyone know the latest on the arrival of the first R142 and will it have a red nose as in the transit museum mock-up. If they do can I suggest the nick name of "Robin" for the new units or does anyone have another name (I hope that everyone knows that a Robin is a small bird with a red front - at least it is here in England).
Delivery of first set to NYCT is currently scheduled for November 1999. This is to be followed by at least 6 months of testing before it goes in service.
While researching an answer I came accross some interesting information for the year 1965.
It was a year of bad news and good news.
The bad news was the last run of the D's on July 23 and the unrebuilt B's on June 25.
The good news was the return of the R-11's to service in early June on the #3 West End Line.
Also to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the BMT 4th Avenue Subway and the opening of the IRT Steinway Tunnels they held a Transit Day at the New York World's Fair. All three museum trains were placed in service that day;IRT Lo-VM's 5286,5290,5443,5466 and 5483, B-Types 2390-1-2 and Q Type 1622 A-B-C.
There also was the Great BMT Flood of August 22 where there was so much water in Dekalb Avenue Station that Noah was called back to help run the trains.
On November 9 there was of course the massive Northeast Blackout which stranded many trains in the tunnels.
Yes it was quite an interesting year.
Larry,Redbird R33
We should start a compilation for that. This day in Transit History.
I think joe korman already does that, see www.quuxuum.org/~joekor
-Dave
I went to the Worlds Fair on the day of the flood. I remember taking the train to the Botanic Gardens and walking over to Franklin.
They ran 6 or 8 car trains up Franklin that day.
On the way home everything was back to normal.
One of the things the flood did was to re-establish (albeit briefly) the #7 Brighton-Franklin Service even though the trains carried QB or QT signs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
what caused the flood (I'm only 18- I never heard of it)?
David: The flood occurred in the early morning hours of Sunday,August 22,1965. A watermain broke on Willoughby St near Lawrence St flooding both Lawrence St and Dekalb Av and cutting off all BMT service between the Southern Division and Manhattan. Service over the Bridge from the Brighton Line was not restored until Monday Afternoon, service from 4 Avenue to the Bridge was restored on Tuesday and finally the Montague St Tunnel was re-openned on Wednesday morning.
Larry,RedbirdR33
July 21, 1965, as I've noted ad nauseum, was a red-letter date in my life. My love affair with the subway started on that memorable day as that N train of shiny new R-32s complete with blue doors and "57th St." signs backlit in green took us from 36th St. in Brooklyn to 34th St. and Broadway. It was a lot cooler on the 86th floor of the Empire State Building than it was at street level.
And to think the Triplexes rode off into the sunset two days later when we left for home and I didn't see them...
Courtesy of the ERA NYD Bulletin here's the car requirements for the AM Rush for the Fall of 1964.
IRT #1 43 x 8 = 344, #2 32 x 9 = 288, # 3 25 x 9 = 225
#4 28 x 10=280 #5 43 x 10= 430 #6 44 x 10 = 440
#7 37 x 11=407 3 Av El 11 x 5 = 55, Bowling Green Stl 1 x 2=2
42 St Stl 2 x 3 and 1 x 4 = 10
IND A 38 x 10=380 BB 10x8 and 6x6=116, CC 24x8=192
D 40 x 10=400 E 40 x 10 = 400 F 24 x 10 = 240
GG 18 x 8= 144 HH 1 x 6 and 1x4 = 10
BMT #1 Exp 17 x8 & 5 x 6=`166 #1 Lcl 21 x 8 and 7 x 6=210
#2 30 x 8=240 #3 Exp 15x8 & 9x6=174
#3 Lcl 7x8 & 4x7 & 1x6=90 #4 Exp 18x8=144
#5 1x2=2 #7 3x3=9 #10 7x6=42
#11 8x6=48 #14 8x5 & 6x6=76
#15 10x8 & 6x6=116 #16 19x6=114
It might be interesting to see how this compares to today's service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I can give you a few off the top of my head:
Today's 'G' is 12 X 6 (75') = 72 (actually a reduction of 1/3 in # of trains)
Today's 'F' is 46 X 8 (75') an increase of 91% over 1964
Today's 'E' is 26 X 10 (60') a reduction of 35% in the # of trains
If I remember correctly, the F of those years ran only to 2nd/Houston or B'way/Laf, thus the figures would be much more comparable if one could calculate the trains in service only to those terminals. I believe that as others have pointed out, in general the current service levels are shamefully skeletal.
Given today's change in length of the routes, ie no E to Rockaway, how do the levels compare?
The G gives you a pretty good idea of the comparative services on that line as it has not changed since 1964. If you flip-flop the E & F from 1964 you can get a pretty good idea of a comparrison too. E from 179th St to Far Rock (then) vs the F train from 179th St to Stillwell (today). By the same token (no pun intended) compare the F fron 179th St. to Houston St. to the E from Parsons/Archer to World Trade Center.
< BMT #1 Exp 17 x8 & 5 x 6 >
I was interested by that number. One day, probably more like 1961, I stood on Albemarle Road overpass, noted the numbers on the first southbound Triplex that came through and counted trains until that Triplex passed me again southbound. The answer: 17 trains!
A difficult way to determine car requirements.
The 5x6 in the AM would have been the Banker's Specials.
Thanks for noticing that. I knew there were six car trains but I didn't know they were the ones assigned to the Nassau-Brighton Service. Of course the 8 car train actually refers to four D-type units which were always counted as two cars for car requirements.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In the 4 star final NY Daily News Friday June 11, page 45, is a small article about The Fun Pass will be much easier to find now that the TA has begun installing the first wave of more than 1,000 MetroCard vending machines in subway stations, officials say.
After the Folks of SubTalk read the article, your fun thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Well it would make the cards better to find. I know that every time I want to get one I always have to hunt down a store that sells one. But once these machines are in place on every station than what the point of having a token booth. There would be no need for one and that would take jobs away from many people.
"There would be no need for [a token booth] and that would take jobs away from many people."
Why do so many people presume this? I don't work for any transit agency, but I would bet any sum that a Station Agent, or whatever the position is called, would say that there are many duties to his/her job other than selling tokens, cards, etc.. These duties haven't been replaced by a machine.
I've pointed this out before, but when Chicago put card machines in every station, the station agents were not made redundant. They answered the travel questions ("How do I get to...?") that they always have. Also, because they could and now HAD TO leave the confines of the token booth, they walk around the station looking for maintenance problems and helping new passengers operate the card machines.
And besides, why is getting rid of jobs automatically bad? Companies should not cut jobs without carefully thinking through all the figures and all the implications, but economic expansion has mainly come from new technology and techniques that were initially condemned as solely "job killers". But if new machines simply eliminated jobs without creating jobs elsewhere, as many believe, then comparing the improvements in technology from, say, 1750 to 1950 would mean that nearly every able-bodied person should now be unemployed.
To take the "save jobs!" argument to its inefficient extreme, the job performed by 1 tunnel-boring machine can be performed by 10 steam shovel operators, or 1000 men with shovels -- or 10,000 men with teaspoons!
John- you are so right. Even if there were machines in every station( there wont be) **every** station will have at least one 24 hour booth and yes, we will still sell tokens and farecards.
But wouldn't handling money eliminate the ability to leave the booth and assist passengers with machines? I've heard everywhere else that agents would no longer need to handle money. The biggest example would be using the machine for someone else.
Good question. There will be a person in the booth and a person outside. The person outside may be assigned to more than one station.
MVM won't be the total elimination of token booths or the Station Agent. The people staffing booths will now have more customer service duties in addition to current responsibilities. instead of mainly handling cash and doing paper work more time will be for servicing PEOPLE...
I just sat down to read the messages on this board today, and I had the TV on TNT (Chips), and I see a commercial that takes place in the subway. I can tell from the ceiling vents and windows that it was inside an R-27/30, and it looked real enough. The people were using cellphones, and the train got stuck and then started up again. (I think it was a cellphone commercial). This is definitely new.
So what did they do, use one of the cars in garbage service? Or could it have been one of the cars sold for movies?
It's a Motorola commercial, and I presume they want to make viewers believe it takes place on the 7.
If you look closely at the commercial, you get to see a piece of the destination sign reading "Tim..." presumably as in Times Square. Further, the footage seems to take place above ground. The only lines terminating @ Times Square are the 7 and the S (Grand Central/Times Square), and the latter never gets to see daylight during revenue work. So, that leaves the 7 as the "imitated" line.
I coulda sworn it was an R33WF. The badly painted ceiling, the fans, the windows, the Tim... destination sign....
-Hank
No, it's an R27 or R30 all right. Too wide to be an R33WF.
Wayne
Yeah, and look at the ceiling vents. They are square, like R-27-38, not "I" shaped like the IRT cars.
I saw that sign reading "Times Sq", and was looking to see which side of the window the sign box was, and how many windows were together, but the different shots were flashing by too fast. Is it possible that the B div cars had "Times Sq."? (as a Broadway short turn).
Otherwise, they probably filmed part of it in a 27, and part in an IRT car. (Didn't they do something like this in one of the subway movies a couple of years ago? They figure "Noone will know".
I also saw that it looked outdoors, but they could create that illusion with special sun lamps.
Just saw the commercial again. Definately NOT a WF car.
-Hank
Not to start a [hostile] discussion, Hank, but I think the car used in the commercial had double-hung windows and not the picture windows with the top quarter swinging inwards to open, a la R33WF. Then again, I may be wrong...
There is a description on the LACMTA official website of the opening festivities for the Red Line subway extension to Hollywood. The address is:
http://www.mta.net/DestinationHollywood/calendar.htm
Some of the more, ahem, *unusual* points:
* 30-foot inflatible replica of John Travolta’s character in "Battlefield Earth," now filming;
* L. Ron Hubbard Museum exhibit;
* Justine (back-up singer to Brandy);
* Continuous DJ entertainment [at several stations];
* Neil Norman and his Cosmic Orchestra with Tim Russ [Tuvok from "Star Trek: Voyager"], themes from "Star Trek" and "Voyager";
* Dae Woo auto display.
To steal a line from a Hollywood classic: "I don't think were in Kansas anymore!" Or to paraphrase an adline: "These aren't your father's subway opening ceremonies!"
The "DaeWoo auto display" is especially odd. If you're the (L.A.) MTA, you're trying to get people to leave the cars at home and take the new subway. So, obviously, the best partner for advertising deals would be car companies. HELLO!?!
I'd like to see what New York residents(drivers, really) think of this.
Yesterday, I went on a class trip to NYC(my fifth trip there in as many months).
First, we had to take our bus from Battery Park to the Metropolitan Museum of Art on 86th Street. I'm pretty sure you could take the FDR up to as far as 96th St I believe and drive down 5th instead of taking Church St, 6th Avenue, 14th St and 3rd Avenue(we started off at 11:20 and got to the museum at 12:13). Would the FDR have been faster?
Also, on the return trip home, we took the Manhattan Bridge, the BQE and Gowanus Expwys to the Verrazano Bridge, across Staten Island to the Garden State Pkwy. Would the Holland Tunnel have gotten us to I-95(we were coming from the South St. Seaport) and been a faster alternative?
I say this because we missed 3 items of our trip because the drivers took the LONG route(two of the three drivers actually admitted they didn't know their way around the city or even the NJ highways and interstates!!!!!!!) and got back to Philly 3 hours late!
The FDR probably would have been faster, but I don't think buses are allowed on the FDR. Fast only counts if they entire bus gets there and I imagine there's a low bridge or two which might have sheared off the top of your bus.
Taking the Holland Tunnel is more direct, but can have tremendous (45 minute or more) backups during middays and the evening rush. If your driver had heard a traffic report advising of a long delay, the roundabout way through Brooklyn is faster.
I don't know why he wouldn't have taken the Battery Tunnel to Brooklyn. This would have spared you the trip uptown to get the Manhattan Bridge as well as the BQE -- both can be time swallowers.
And why you'd get on the Garden State Parkway is a mystery to me. Both bridges from Staten Island to NJ (the Goethals and the Outerbridge) provide a nearly direct feed onto the NJ Turnpike (I-95).
Hopefully none of the kids got sick after three hours extra on the bus.
No one got really sick was the bathroom was a popular destination.
We finally left Manhattan just after 5. It took about 10 minutes to get from the Seaport to the BQE(and about 30 minutes from there to the Verrazano Bridge).
BTW- I of course made sure I took the subway, even though I wasn't supposed to (only the N from City Hall to Canal St. My friends said "There goes Steve and his trains again"). I also saw the B and a train of R-40M's or R-42's on the Q, and the F and G over Smith/9th(excuse the language, but it looked damn high up!).
Well, let's see....depending on what time you left, the 'long way' through SI was best. As for buses on the FDR, they're allowed only from 23st and south.
-Hank
Yes, your FDR route is correct but not necessarily faster. It depends on the time of Day. Because 5th Avenue is in the middle and cross town traffic is a real problem you might have spent a lot of time trying to get over to 5th From the FDR. The route you took is probobly not the best either but the Met from anywhere is a tall order in the day time.
As for your return. You might have gotten to I-95 faster by way of the Holland Tunnel, but the route through Staten Island is at least on the way to Philadelphia. In other words you picked up I-95 further South by taking Verranzano. Which is better is hard to say. It depends on the traffic and the time of day. The BQE-Gowanus is probobly the worst road in America. While the Holland tunnel can be a nightmare at rush hour and can feed into the Nightmare which is North Jersey. And land you on I-95 (the second worst road in America) several exits prior to where you would have gotten it coming off of Staten Island.
Might I suggest taking the train next time??? I wonder if AMTRACK has group or student rates???
2 points-
1. The driver never even hit I-95 for the ENTIRE return trip. We took the Garden State Pkwy(and ended up in Ocean County, NJ on the complete opposite side of the state from the Ben Franklin Bridge, which leads directly into Center City Philadelphia.
2. We couldn't have taken Slamtrak because complaints were made about just the $40 the trip cost and surely it would cost more than that.
The bus ride in the city was a nightmare. If I ever get the choice, I will never drive in Manhattan. I don't see why we couldn't take the Lexington IRT to 86th Street and walked to 5th (we couldn't even be in groups less than four just because it was NYC, so forget the subway:))
You are very wise. No one should ever drive to Manhattan!!! I am reminded of a story about a guy from New Jersey who drove his car off the George Washington Bridge. As the car was sinking to the bottom of the river, instead of getting out to swim to safety, he started honking his horn and cursing New York for not paving over the river so that HE could drive there.
Another though for your next trip might be to take the bus part of the way (that's most convenient) and parking and then getting on NJ Transit to Penn Station. If they offer any kind of group or student rate that might be cheaper than taking Amtrack all the way from Philly.
The driver never even hit I-95 for the ENTIRE return trip. We took the Garden State Pkwy(and ended up in Ocean County, NJ on the complete opposite side of the state from the Ben Franklin Bridge, which leads directly into Center City Philadelphia.
Ouch! What'd he do? Pick up I-195 to get back to the Turnpike or (you gotta be kidding) take the GSP to the Atlantic City Expressway?
--Mark
I don't know if this is why, but there is something rather confusing about the NJ Turnpike. It seems that the Turnpike is I-95 about as far south as Exit 10 in Edison. Then I-95 ceases to exist, until it picks up again somewhere north of Philadelphia.
Someone once explained this to me, but I've forgotten the explanation. Anyone here know it?
There's an uncompleted gap of I-95. I-95 was to go west and multiplex with I-287 for a few miles before breaking off. There there would be a wye with I-287, I-95 and an I-695. 95 would proceed southwest, passing wealthy Mercer and Somerset county towns (Do I need to explain the rest?). Outside of Trenton, currently, I-295 along the curve around the city becomes I-95 and enters PA via a free bridge over the river. That point where I-95 becomes I-295 was where I-95 was supposed to come in.
Thanks -- that's a much better explanation than what I was originally told.
As I recall, once he realized his error, he made his way back to the Atlantic City Expwy(NJ Highway 42) until he reached I-76.
There you can choose between taking 76 across the Walt Whitman Bridge into South Philly or the North-South Freeway(I-676) to the Ben Franklin Bridge and Vine St. Expwy.
He took 676(like any responsible but lost bus driver should do).
But like I said, we were only on 95 for the trip TO NYC.
I would travel on the NJT (I95) to exit 7 (get gas) and follow the side road to I295. I295 joins I76 and spilts. You can get Philly from here.
On the NY area side, I go NJT to exit 10. Take the Outerbridge to SI, go across the VN into Brooklyn to the BQE. This way I skip the Holland.
Phil Hom
ERA3620
First, we had to take our bus from Battery Park to the Metropolitan Museum of Art on 86th Street. I'm pretty sure you could take the FDR up to as far as 96th St I believe and drive down 5th instead of taking Church St, 6th Avenue, 14th St and 3rd Avenue(we started off at 11:20 and got to the museum at 12:13). Would the FDR have been faster?
It may have been IF there was no traffic on the FDR drive. However, I believe there is a bus restriction north of 42nd Street. SO the 3rd Ave alternative wasn't such a bad one.
Also, on the return trip home, we took the Manhattan Bridge, the BQE and Gowanus Expwys to the Verrazano Bridge, across Staten Island to the Garden State Pkwy. Would the Holland Tunnel have gotten us to I-95(we were coming from the South St. Seaport) and been a faster alternative?
I saw in a subsequent thread that the time it took you to get to the BQE from downtown was about 10 minutes and then another 30 to the Verrazano. That actually isn't too bad. If it were up to me, I'd probably have taken the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel, which would have saved you 15 minutes for sure (assuming there wasno traffic in the tunnel). And going through Staten Island via the Outerbridge Crossing to NJ is pretty efficient, too, so I pretty much agree with that. It enabled you to pick up I-95 further south and avoid possible delays on the Turnpike south of exit 14A (there are sometimes exiting delays for the Goethals at exit 13.)
--Mark
Starts 7am on 6/21/1999; Blaze Magazine MetroCard ath these stations (I have grouped stations to save room)
145: ABCD
137: 1
135: 23
125: 19456ABCD
116: 236
West 4: ABCDEFQ
Broadway-Lafayette/Bleecker:BDFQ6
Eastern Parkway IRT: 23
Franklin Ave: 2345
Clinton Washington: ACG
Utica : AC34
Church: DQ
Hoyt/Schermerhorn: ACG
Bergen: FG
161: BDQ
Fordham: BD4
Burnside:4
Hunts Point :6
149/3av: 25
167: BD4
170:4
Jamaica/Van Wyck: E
Sutphin( Archer):EJZ
23/Ely- Court Square: EFG
Queens(Boro) Plaza: EFGNR7
33rd Rawson:7
SOURCE: Official AFC Bulletin
Thanks for the helpful info.!
I played hookie from work today (e.g. a vacation day) and went up to Seashore to be Dispatcher of the day. In addition to beautiful weather(!) it was a great transit day. One of our frequent SubTalk contributors came up to visit (I'll let him identify himself), and he got a tour of all the NYC fleet, plus the chance to operate a streetcar and a PCC. Hopefully others of you will have the chance to visit the trolley museum of your choice soon! Seashore's 5-1/2 hours from New York, but if you can't visit us, there's Branford, Warehouse Point, TMNY, Baltimore, DC,... take your pick!
Sounds like a fun field trip! Why do you differentiate between streetcars and PCCs? I thought PCCs were a kind of streetcar, like CLRVs. I don't think they come under the classification of light rail vehicle as they are predate the term, and are far too heavy because they were built out of steel.
- Robert
PCC cars are basicaly a technology package. The first cars were indeed streetcars where the specification convered the running gear and the bodies but there were also many PCC rappid transit cars.
The PCC streetcars are between 34,000 and 38,000 lbs depending on the builder and the equipment. PCC rappid transit cars are closer to 50,000 lbs dependig on the system that used them.
The term light rail is a confusing. It came from the weight of the rail at first but that definition has long since quit being relevant.
Streetcar systems were built with 70 to 100 lb rail. Electric interurbans used 100 to 113 or higher.
Light rail as we know it today can be distiguished from rappid transit because the cars use overhead wire and not a 3rd rail, can be boarded from a low level stop (not allways true anymore) May be run in single or multiple units and can operate in mixed traffic, pedestrial malls or on exclusive right of way.
Most of the same applies to streetcars. Some of the distiction was to make like rail appear to be modern, but the exclusive right of way makes light rail more practical to provide service than the older systems with extensive street running in mixed traffic.
The CLRV and ALRV's will fit either definition. The name isn't as important as the ride.
The only comment that I'll add to Joe's fine reply is that "StreetCars" in the early days (early 1900's) ran on the street, some of the first on dirt roads with rails down them.
In the 30s' the street car industry was in deep trouble. The Presidents' Conference Commision (yes Wash. D.C.) came up with a faster, lighter, easier to maintain, modern looking design, the PCC. Three mfg. made 5,000 into the 50s. There were a couple of other designs for the "interurban" market, e.g. the Bullet, one in Philly has lasted in various forms to today.
Over time streetcars that ran on streets with all those new fangled autos became more & more a problem, and got bus-substituted. So what we're left with is MOSTLY streetcars/trolleys that run on private ROW.
NYC was the exception, Mayor La Guardia hated them, and may have been infulenced by the rubber tire & bus mfg. Anyhow NYC streetcars died an early death :-( I happen to work for a trolley company that put buses on all of its' routes in the mid/late 30s except the Queensboro Bridge line that lasted until it was the last trolley in NYC in 1957.
P.S. Newark NJ is another exception, locally. Its' "City Subway" is served by 1930s' PCC, but soon they too will be replaced by LRV.
Mr PCC-t__:^)
The Presidents' Conference Commision (yes Wash. D.C.) came up with a faster, lighter, easier to maintain, modern looking design, the PCC.
I always thought the PCC abbreviation was shortened from the Electric Railway Presidents' Conference Committee (ERPCC), which was a "consortium" of the heads of various electric railways looking to get people back on the streetcar by coming up with an all-new streamlined design. I don't think the office of the US President had anything to do with this.
--Mark
[The Presidents' Conference Commision (yes Wash. D.C.)]
vs.
[Electric Railway Presidents' Conference Committee (ERPCC), which was a "consortium" of the heads of various electric railways ...]
I don't know about the Electric Railway part, but thanks for correcting ... It was a committee vs. a commision and it was a group of railway folks vs. politians.
One of which was Dr. Thomas Conway, Jr. who very passionately believed that inter and intra city mass transit could be fixed and made to work profitably just as it had done in the early 1900s'. He was influencial in the design of a number of interurban cars in Chicago (Red Devil) & Philly (Bullet)
No, I'm not that much of a buff ... I found an article about him in a 1992 issue of Scale Model Traction & Trolleys Quarterly which I obtained because it contains another article about where all the NYC troleys went to/came from.
Mr t__:^)
The bulk of the development work for the PCC took place in Brooklyn. ERPCC leased carhouse space from B&Q Transit and operated two test cars over the system to validate some of the ideas proposed. Brooklyn also took delivery of the first 100 car order from St. Louis Car. While that order was being constructed Boston ordered 1 car for test purposes and that car was diverted from the Brooklyn Order. To replace it, Brooklyn ordered a single car from Clark Equipment, which was built to a unique design, and was the only car built by Clark. All Brooklyn cars had GE's control system. Another single car ordered by Pittsburgh was the first to have Westinghouse Controls and also the first to be delivered to the operator. After 1940, the development of the PCC focused onWashington, St. Louis and Boston where the post-war and 1949 designs developed.
Car 1000 built by the Clark Equiptment Company now redides at the Trolley Museum of New York in Kingston.
Larry,RedbirdR33
And car 1001, mfg by St. Louis Car Co. for Brooklyn & Queens Ry, is at Branford (Shoreline).
Also, thanks you Gerry for the additional detail I enjoyed reading it.
Mr t__:^)
So, are the PCCs on the Newark City Subway "streetcars" or "rapid transit cars", using the weight criterion Joe M mentions?
There was a fine article in the April '99 issue of Railpace, by Matthew W. Nawn. I'll lift a couple of comments to try & answer your question:
- Once 800 miles of trackage for 1500 trolley cars (not all PCCs)
- Route #7 first opened 1935 in Canal bed, PCCs added '54
- PCCs mfg. by St. Louis Car Co. 46.5', 55 seats
[So, are the PCCs on the Newark City Subway "streetcars" or "rapid transit cars", using the weight criterion Joe M mentions?]
Sorry don't know, but am visiting them 6/22 with a few friends on a "Field Trip" at 6 PM before they are gone forever.
If someone else doesn't supply the answer, tell me what to look for.
The newark PCC cars were built as streetcars and continue to be streetcars even though they have lived a long productive life in the subway. The application is a light rail application like the boston green line or shaker heights in Cleveland that both used to run PCC Streetcars before moving on to "LRV's".
I think the Newark cars were build for the Twin Cities in MN in the late 40's (47,49??) There are other people here who know much more about the Newark cars than I do though. One of them found it's way back to Mpls. from Newark via Cleveland.
PCC rappid transit cars would be like the Chicago 6000 series cars, MBTA 0548-0587, PRRCo, New York 1206-1229 & H&MRRco1234-1249 (1957) (Are these the red or blue birds you reffer to?) PATH 600-723 & 100-181, Cleveland 201-270 & 101-118
[I think the Newark cars were build for the Twin Cities in MN in the late 40's (47,49??) There are other people here who know much more about the Newark cars than I do though. One of them found it's way back to Mpls. from Newark via Cleveland.]
Again from the Railpace article ... in 1953 NJ purchased 30 PCCs from Twin City Rapid Transit Co ... two cars were (later) sold to Cleveland ... these (two) have since found their way back to Minneapolis ...
Mr t__:^)
This car is the only active work motor R-22 with its original WABCo A-3, 2-CY-3B compressor unit. It was seen on Friday, June 11th, coming off the West End Line headed north at 36th Street. The consist was N-R-22#37460 ex 7460 (modified with WABCo D-4-S comp.), R-74 Signal Dolly# S01 and R-22#37371 ex 7371-S. 7371 was making music as it stopped to wait for a line-up.
All other work motor (i.e. Revenue collection, Signal Dolly WM) R-22's
were all modified with new or used propulsion equipment and the annoying sounding WABCo D-4-S compressors. I wounder why 7371 wasn't converted with a D-4-S. It is not like the TA dosent have none of these units in stock. But I'm glad they didnt touch this car!!!!
Who misses the original compressor sounds that were on all SMEE (R10-R36) cars?
State your opinions.......
I was talking about that car last month. It also has its factory J-1 relay with cast iron brake shoes and the entire consist stopped before the dime, unlike today's garbage.
Hey, Harry! Exactly how many of these work motors are left? It's extremely rare to find an R17,21 work motor out there. Of the work motors, can I safely assume that 7371 is one of the few unmodified cars still out there?
-Constantine
There are about four cars with one being stripped. 7371 does have its original compressor too, with a slight piston knock but not bad for it's age. Im surprised the TA didn't buy more R-127s to replace these aging dinosauric work motors. I believe 7350 or 49 is the one being stripped. I told you I wouldn't use an R-36 door at Branford if I were you.
Also judging from the noise of the pilot motors, Id assume they have late model SCMs, not their original westinghouse choppers. They also have GE grids. The beauty is they still grind to a stop with A-1 operating units and cast iron brake shoes. Sorry Steve, I know you wanted this hush hush. INSHOT AND ALL!
All active R-22 work motors were rebuilt with GE SCM control groups. The Revenue collection cars have new GE SCM control groups with new GE 1257E1 motors while the signal dolly R-22's (7307, 7349, 7366, 7371, 7420, 7460) have used GE SCM's, (from R-33's) with Westinghouse 1447C traction motors. The GE master controller on the revenue collection cars came off unrebuilt R-38's and original WABCo SMEE brake equipment was replaced with New York Air Brake Equipment (now Knorr).
By the way WH R-22's never had CHOPPER, they had UNIT SWITCH control groups.
What was the reasoning behind the molestation of the revenue collector car's brakes but not the work motors? If the dolly has composition brakes, why not the horses? Not that Im complaining but they could have done the work motors in a modified contract at the same time.
I sure hope someone saves one of these R-21/22's when they are retired from work service.
Ditto for the riding motors RD332, RD335 which are quaint R15s.
I think there are some R12 or R14 riding motors out there too.
If there are any R21 left as work motors, they should save one of them too - they're different than R21 - different straps, different lights, seats etc. They're a cross between R17 and R22.
Wayne
Try R21 7267 at Westchester Yard here in the Bronx. She's not in working order, sitting out the rest of her days as a storage room of sorts. The car doesn't even have shoe beams anymore!!!
-Constantine
Yes but originally that car was transferred from Coney Island so that the original locker car 6895 could be placed on a list of cars for possible restoration, along with the fire school R-12s. You can't save everything, especially without volunteers.
What???? Another R17 for restoration? You gotta be kidding me!!! Gee, I wonder what paint scheme that car would be painted in. I was riding 6895 during WestFest and she sounded ok. The car wasn't making noise, cheerfully doing the thing she knows best - OPERATING ON THE RAILS.
Also what do you do with the R12/14 combo? I don't suppose that duo was going to operate with 6895 during West Fest, eh? These cars probably should not have been transferred from C.I. to Westchester since they weren't being used. Can I expect 6895 to go down to C.I.?
You don't have to tell me about the volunteer bit. I already know that.
Speaking of which, I also spotted an R22 7486 over at Westchester Yard.
-Constantine
Those three cars are the trust of a Superindentent (RTO or DCE?) up there. I don't know the details, but he was going to restore the three with his own "resources".
Now if that means his own funds and labor or employees and his TA budget, I don't know. But they've been there a long time, and nothing has been done.
Hey Erik!
With the SMEE fleet nearing it's end, it's only appropriate to get these SMEE's out and running. Perhaps, they can put these together with the cars at the Transit Museum.
6895 had been there for years, but the R12/14 combo was only transferred recently, I believe. Whatever the case maybe, I wish the Superintendent the very best in his restoration efforts. You can't perform the restoration work at Westchester, can you? Certainly, these cars would at least have to travel to 207th St.
-Constantine
Stef!
Pelham Mtce has a shop building, that could serve for most of the work. There are enviornmental concerns to sanding and painting that would probably either force them out side or to one of the main shops.
Harold and I did a hell of a lot of painting and sanding out in the yards. We dropped three motor/generator sets and two compressors. Completely gutted 7 group boxes and carried 43 cast iron brake shoes. The old fiberglass seats make a great sledge. We'd tie on a wire and pull the sucker around the yard in the middle of the night. Did it for years, untill I finnaly got us transfered to 207th. There I had some old friends, and we got the car shopped. Then we got some work done!
Keep up the good work, and thanks for the info.
Speaking of the Superintendent, I was told that he wanted the 4 SMEEs at the NYTM to come out for the West Fest event. It didn't happen because I belive Mr. Hanna opposed it (if I have my details right). He didn't like the guy. I wonder what could have happened?
-Constantine
Hey Everybody-
Hey Everybody-
I was looking at a page of pictures of the Key System today, and lo and behold, there are two pictures of the Manhattan El cars that were sent out to Richmond, CA during WWII to transport workers to the shipyards. Since these cars came up on this board a little while ago (IIRC, as the only remaining Manhattan El cars?), I thought you all might appreciate pictures:
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/keysyst/key.htm (They're towards the bottom of the page)
They sure do look funny with those pantographs!!
Thanks, Damian, for the great web site reference to Dave's Railpix. He's done an amazing job.
There are still two Manhattan el cars in California, at the Rio Vista museum. Some of us who went to the ERA Convention in San Francisco three years ago went to that museum; the cars "need fixin'," as they say here in the North Country of NY, but it was a pleasure to be able to be inside one of them.
Weren't Manhattan El cars in use on the Dyre Avenue Line until it was through-routed to the IRT mail lines? I seem to recall gate cars and conductors collecting fares.
Ed Alfonsin
Does anyone know why the Transit Museum does not have an Manhattan El car on display?
With them having been an integral part of the Manhattan landscape for all those years, it would seem that they would want to have one there...anyone know why they don't?
Barry,
You haven't been in the Transit Museum lately, have you? Well, there's an el car on display which is Money Car G. The car which dates back to 1878, is from the el's steam days. This car is on loan to the Transit Museum from the Branford Electric Rwy Association, operator of the Shore Line Trolley Museum in East Haven, CT (until 2003).
There's a good reason why you don't see Manhattan El cars in the Transit Museum. First, no one ever bothered to save one; Second, even if one were saved, the cars were pretty high, with a probable chance that the cars wouldn't be able to clear a subway tunnel in one piece. Car G was very fortunate that she was able to clear in one piece; for shipment to the Transit Museum she went into the tunnel without her marker lamps and head lamp for fear the top of the tunnel would tear them off.
There are Manhattan El Cars still in existence; A museum in Gettysburg has one. In California you can find two. Branford has two, Car 824 and Car G (on loan to the NYTM).
The only reason there were el cars in California, was because they were needed during World War II for shuffle workers around numerous facilities. Fortunately, someone saved those el cars.
Speaking of wooden cars, I've always wondered why no one ever bothered to save a wooden Composite subway/el car?
Any thoughts?
-Constantine
< Speaking of wooden cars, I've always wondered why no one ever bothered to save a wooden Composite subway/el car?
< Any thoughts? >
The Composites, like many other pieces of equipment of the era, simply missed the boat.
The Transit Museum idea was just hatching in the mid '60s. Several of us advocated for the idea back then, and from within the Transit Authority, Don Harold was a big mover in bringing to fruition.
But the important point is the date--June 1965, when some Standards, Qs and Lo-Vs were prettied up to celebrate both the World's Far and the anniversary of the BMT Broadway Subway.
Before then, private museums saved whatever they could by purchase, often from the scraplists. After that date, the TA actively strove to save some of each piece of existing equipment.
But what got saved depended a lot on the luck of what was still around--not only active equipment, but equipment in work trains, and such lucky events as the fact that the TA was willing to "reverse engineer" some Q types back into the 1200-1400 class gate cars from which they were rebuilt.
But a lot was lost by not much time. In less than a decade before 1965, the Transit Museum (and in many cases everyone) missed Hi-Vs, BMT PCCs, BMT Peter Witts, Composites, Deck Roof Hi-Vs, one of most kinds of BMT elevated equipment other 1200, 1300 and 1400 and Qs. Also the Bluebird, the Zephyr, C-types, and probably a lot else that I'll get too depressed if I try to enumerate them.
Manhattan el cars will clear B division tunnels as long as the marker
lamps are removed. It's close. Brooklyn el cars are a few inches
taller and they won't clear. Nothing will clear on the A division.
The 3 Brooklyn el cars that the Transit Museum has on display still
have the (historically inaccurate) Q car lowered roofs, that's why
they are able to get in there.
Thank You for clarifying that, Jeff.
-Constantine
Thank you for posting that site, I've been trying to find a site about the Key System for a while!
Nice collections of old photos, thanks for posting the link.
Mr t__:^)
When you have free time visit http://www.forgotten-ny.com
A lot of stuff including Queens trolly and subway history.
Wow! It's great to see all that old stuff again! I didn't know about the exterior sign "Mott Avenue Station". Next time I'm in Da Bronx I'll have to get a shot of THAT one. The Mott Avenue tablet and the "MH" icons at 138th Street-Mott Haven I already have.
He should update his site though, the Twinlamps have made quite a comeback along Central Park West, especially around the Museum, no doubt in the wake of the parade accident a few years ago. They've got them positioned with their arms parallel to the curb. They're REAL Cast Iron, too! And there's a whole gaggle of Bishops Crook Lamps all up and down Smith Street in Brooklyn.
Wayne
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/061299la-subway.html
above url leads to article/pix. When I was in LA last week I sampled the Red and Blue lines which connect. At rush hour the blue was busy, the Red so-so. The stations arfe clean--few users=little dirt-and the headways on the Blue line LRVS are short. Pity the system was so corruptly built that public tolerance for the price has vaporized.
Does anybody know anything about the writer of that NYT article? His name is Todd S. Purdum and he seems to be in the tradition of the NYT that back in 1977 identified a GG-1 as a "steam engine" under a photo and a "diesel engine" in the body of the article the photo was part of. Do transit stories get assigned like obituaries or animal births at the zoo?
Even though most of his article is written reasonably enough, albeit with a somewhat negative emphasis, the section I've clipped and included here shows some "carelessness," to be polite. One has to wonder if he was even (or ever) in the subway when he talks about "rubber-wheeled trains." (Montréal, Mexico City, and some lines in Paris are "rubber-tired," but not "rubber-wheeled, and Los Angeles is not in the group of rubber-tried cities.) And he certainly has no sense of the world-wide use of Proof-of-Payment fare systems and the use of POP in Los Angeles itself on the Blue and Green Lines when he makes comments like "comparative novelty," and uses words like "still works" and "expected to buy." We shouldn't forget that some of the older systems, like New York, are gradually becoming the anomalies in keeping traditional pre-pay systems.
Quoting from the Times article--
> The subway stations are spotless and nearly empty, the
> rubber-wheeled trains almost silent and the whole experience such > a comparative novelty that the $1.35 fare still works on a honor
> system, in which passengers are expected to buy tickets but face
> no turnstiles or other barriers before boarding.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Well, A GG-1 has a steam gen, and I'd assume they smoke a lot when something pops on them, and the steam gen is oil fired I believe, so, I guess in a way, he *was* right ;) My favorite was after the williamsburg bridge accident:
"The controller was found in the highest of the 3 power settings, however the train may not have been going full speed, because it had shifted into a lower gear for the steep climb up to the bridge"
Ok, now, besides the obvious, the approach to the bridge doesn't seem THAT steep.
I also love how the NYT insists that subway cars have gotten much heavier over the years. Oh yeah, and how they harp on how old the signal system is.
I was in fact in LA a week back and actually rode albeit briefly bits of bothe Blue and Red lines. The fact that I and my companbion could choose good viewing locations @4:30 PM on a Friday should be a clue. The Red line particularly was not very busy. The Blue which actually goes somewhere did seem busy, and both seemed to have short headways. Remember that these are as if the entire IRT were from Atlantic in Brooklyn to the Flatbush, with connections to an odd cross borough line linking Bay Ridge to the Fulton El. AND nothing to Manh. Remember the TA carries more riders than all other subway and LRV systems together in the US.
This getting me mad. The past three Saturdays the at 50 Rock at 7:45am as the D pulls in on time the F is closing its doors. The conductor/tower has yet to allow a meet of these two trains. And more often then not, the F will pull out, pass two signals and WAIT, it's EOT markers glaring in Pax faces as it sits waiting for the E to clear 5th Ave.
Many a time pax pound on the Tower window "WHY DIDN'T YOU HOLD THE F". I thought except for rush hours trains will meet??
Okay so I thought I would look at the public timetable on the web to see what the times are at 50 Rock.
Low and Behold the D and the F both meet at 7:45am **BUT** if you look closely the F Public time table is the D time table (when was the last time the F went to Tremont?)
Anyone know what the employee timetable says for these two trains. It is the 6:54 Delta Stillwell on the public timetable (7:06 Kings Hwy). If I make this connection I am on time at work Saturday if not I'm 7 minutes late.
Missing meets in the non rush has always been a pet-peeve of mine. If I see a blown connection, I'll tell my conductor to reopen if I see the connection. If I were a TSS or sup't, I would verbally reinstruct the first time and write up the second time. Tower operators would be equally responsible.
If I were a TSS or Supt,I would look the other way.
[If I were a TSS or Supt,I would look the other way.]
And _ _ _ _ the passengers or your customers! If you work for the TA you have a VERY BAD attitude. When will the union learn that their job is to carry passengers and not just to make two or three trips? Why do certain train service employees feel they have the right to take out all their frustrations and anger on the traveling public? I just don’t get it.
Passengers are the reason for your existence! Maybe there would be more of them if some of the train service employees would take the passengers needs into consideration rather then their own.
Yes, we have Operators in Chicago that will close their doors at transfer stations WHILE the connection is pulling into the station. When running on a 3-minute headway, this is OK. During off-peak it is NOT OK. If I get a car number I will call it in when I get a chance, I’ve paid my fare and I have that right. Leaving passengers standing at the station to wait another 10 - 15 minutes is NO WAY to encourage repeat business! And it is no way to treat people.
So, TSS and or Superintendents who "look the other way" should be disciplined along with the train crew when connections are intentionally not made!
These comments are not intended for those of you who try your best to operate service under conditions that are not always the best. However, as you know, you have brothers and sisters out there who continually think it is their right to 'put it to' the passengers. In their minds they are 'getting even' with management when they do this. Thankfully we don't have to live with these cretins.
Jim K.
Chicago
While I have seen meets not made during off peak, I have also seen trains held for connections during rush hours. I thought that was not supposed to happen, unless there is a big problem on the trains.
Whah?! Sorry Bill but you are way out of line.
I make connections whenever I can. I sympathize with our passengers, but it's a conductors perogative to hold or not hold. If you were my train operator, I wouldn't put up with that crap. Do I tell you how to run timers? Do I tell you the line up? So don't tell me my job. You move the train, and I'll worry about connections and time. That's why the conductor is in charge of the train
And the bulletin states where possible, not all the time.
How do you know the train that didn't wait isin't late?
I always have my time table with me, do you?
Tower operators should hold trains that are early (good conductors shouldn't be) for connections, but let's not get carried away here. There's one guy at Murhpy tower in Brooklyn on the 4th av. line. He holds for connections even when trains are late!
As for the Rockerfeller Center meet, The F should wait. Almost always when I work the F, I meet a B on weekends, and a Q during the week. Should he have already turned his key when the conductor sees the connecting train (happens a lot, sorry wer'e human) then he should wait for it at 42nd or 34th. And if he's late because of it, so what. The Culver portion of the line has TOOOOOOooo much time for itself. I've been 6 minutes late at Jay St. and still gotten to Coney Island on time. So for that one there's no excuse.
But sometimes, there's no point to a connection. Say my train is crowded, and I can see headlights behind.
Why on earth would I wait? I'm only further delaying myself and the train behind me. Unfortunately the angry riders on the platform who think they've just missed the train never see it that way. I have had bottles hurled at me and have been spit on. I wonder if they felt guilty when the following train came right in behind me.
The Person at Nevins Tower also loves holding trains even when your 10 Minutes late with another No.2 Directly behind. So far there happened 4 times this pick I was over 10 Minutes late and Nevins still held My No.2 Train for a No.4 Train. Northbound they held me 4 Minutes for a connection so then I called control and they put the lights off and at that time the No.4 was arriving across the Platform but since the lights were off we left before the No.4 was able to open up. Then Later that trip I got a skip from E 180 TO Gun Hill RD.
On the No.2 Line you have to call everything in because that Line Supt. Likes making crews write reports for being late. I had to write a Report why I was 12 Minute late to Flatbush one Saturday when there were lots of GO'S and a slow Speed Order in effect. Oh and yes Nevins did hold my 2 Minutes for a No.4 Train. That another reason I call control on holding lights.
Dave, why are you doing this and not your C/R? Read my first (or second?) post on the funny stories in the subway subject.
You and I have gone through a similar war a few months ago. Maybe you are a good conductor who is in charge, but I have worked with many who don't deserve to be in charge! The train operator has to worry about time as well. If a train is a few minutes late due to a connection, so be it. Maybe the guy at Murphy is holding you because your follower is late and it is his job to equally space the service as best as possible. Stop being a mouthpiece for Nat Ford with this every second counts attitude. Re-read your post, you seem to contradict yourself in the second half on what you said in the first. Our job is to move passengers quickly & efficiently. If I'm a few minutes late so we can make a connection so passengers can save 10 minutes by not missing a connection, we have done our job. And I don't give a rats you know what about getting to the terminal late! If your train is crowded, that's another matter, but the original poster was talking about a Saturday morning! And I always have my schedule card! Read my cyber lips: you may be a good conductor, and I am a good motorman. 18 years in title almost 20 years in total. Over 200 sick days in the bank, no discipline, no wrong lineups and I know how to navigate timers. So no thanks, you don't have to tell me! I get good evaluations, I get along with supervision, I am not confrontational with them, and I just go with the program and TA beaurocracy. I don't make waves, I do my job and go home and yes, I sometimes vent here! I presently work a PM job in Queens. My conductor told me last week that I am the best motorman he's ever had in his 12 years. No, I'm not bragging, but I don't like to being put down by you. I don't want a conductor who is a dominator. Yes, you have lots of railroading experience. Frankly, I think you shouldn't be a conductor because you may be overqualified as to your previous railroading experience. I think you are bored in what you do!
Bored, maybe. Frustrated, yes. Mouthpiece for that figurehead, NO.
I try to maintain my schedule because I like my breaks too. If I'm late, then it comes out of my break time. As you know dispatchers don't move up your next trip to compensate for a late arrival on your last one.
Selfish as it sounds, to hell with the passengers. Why should I feel any different than management. I try to make as many connections as I can. But like I said, if I'm late or someone is behind me, see ya.
With me every second only counts, because it's that much less time untill I can get off the train.
As for most other conductors being poor, I agree.
I haven't worked with you, so I can't comment on your skills. But if we did, I would not intrude on your responsibilities, and I would expect you to do the same.
One of the reasons conductors are held in such low regard is that motormen have slowly taken many of the duties of the conductor.
Radios are one example. Motormen now speak for the train. OPTO and the loss of put in and lay up work, or the work trains. From all these places conductors have been deemed obsolete.
Perhaps you are right. Maybe I should not have taken this job. I knew all the BS that went on here before coming on. I am over qualified, but the only way to the motorman's job is from an entry level title, so I had no choice.
Considering recent events in my life, I may leave. Unlike 99% of my fellow employees, I have options. I'd hate to do so. It would be like leaving an old friend in need. But it's become painfully obvious that friend doesn't want help. Let the TA got to hell in a hand basket. Guys like you (Mr. make no waves) and Nat Ford are leading us there.
Spotted this sucker (pun intended) southbound local on the 7th Ave line @ 28st on my way home from Shea last night. Of all things, I make all my connections perfectly to get the 1:30 ferry, and the @#$@# ferry was LATE!
-Hank
Better that than early!
Out of curiosity, how many different styles of doors must the TA purchase? It seems that the doors on the R32/38/40/42 are all the same (I'm talking side doors) But looking, the doors on the redbirds are close as well. So, are all the side doors stainless, but the doors on the redbirds are painted to match? Or do the redbirds get carbon steel doors? Are these doors all the same? And can the R44/46 and R68/68A usae the same doors?
-Hank
I can't speak for the R-32/38/40 & 42s but I know for a fact that the R-68 & R-68A doors are not interchangable (In fact, there are 2 different R-68 doors)and the R-44 & R-46 doors are also dissimilar.
R40/42 side doors are wider than R32/38 side doors. I do no know if the doors are ionterchangable between 32/38 and 40/42.
Well, if one is wider, I would guess no. How about the redbirds? Doors on any of the current IND-BMT fleet fit?
-Hank
The doors on the red birds are aluminum. I believe they may also be smaller. The finger guards are interchangeble.
I would imagine the doors on the R-32s and R-38s are identical.
IMHO, the R-40s and R-42s should have kept their original doors, whose windows blended in very nicely with the car side windows.
When I was looking at the el track map I noticed that there were yards for the el lines. Are there any signs of them still like the 179st yard which is the closest yard since I live near Bedford Park also I have to ask another question if you read some of my plans for my yard where would be good places in the city to have yards for the lines? Thanks in advace.
Christopher Rivera
There was/is a power substation at that site.
However, there are no traces of its former use.
I think it was one of the parts of the el that disappeared
early 50's. I can not even remember seeing the actual yard
or a picture of it.
"L" yards do not seem to take up as much space as you would think and they are hard to find where they were when they are gone
The Wilson shops bunred in Chicago on the red line a few years ago
There are just a few switch tracks left and its hard to immagine how the rest fit in the space that is there
If you did not know where it was you would not think to look there
I assume you're referring to Manhattan El yards.
Quite a few BRT elevated yards are still around in subway service, sometimes altered and/or expanded. Ones that pop readily to mind are 39th Street, Lutheran, Canarsie, ENY (not Coney Island). Also some bus depots were trolley depots, such as Fresh Pond.
Quick question: Where is the "Lutheran Yard"?
That is the old Fresh Pond car barn yard,it had the trolleys that ran under the Myrtle Ave elevated. it still serves the Myrtle Ave line it's located right next to the Fresh Pond rd el station.
Prior to the consolidation of the system into the NYCTA, where did the IRT have its major-overhaul shops? (This would be before all major car work was completed at 207th Street or Coney Island.) As for old yards, the Polo Grounds yards on the IRT were incorporated into the same housing project that the old ballpark on Coogan's Bluff became part of. Perhaps Robert Moses and his housing people incorporated other yards into other developments.
George Devine
San Francisco
Well, Friday, I went to the seashore trolley museum up in maine. Got to drive 2 trolleys, see a lot of neat things, saw a billion PCCs ( :P ) and crawled around in the MP-54 up there. here's what I found:
a)The car is a bit rusty, the paint is flaking, but it's generally all there, generally good condition, and looks like it can function.
b)The interior is there, and it looks like all the seats, or at least some of the seats, are still there.
c)One control stand is complete, the other is mostly complete, but missing the wiper assembly and stuff on the motor controller itself. And possibly a few gauges.
d)It was fitted with speed control. The underside equipment was all there, however, I could not locate a battery box anywhere, and it looks like a few wires were messed with.
e)It is a Westinghouse Unit Switch setup, fitted with dynamic brakes.
f)It looks as if it was last painted in 1968 - 69.
g)It was way cool. It looks as if it can be made to function. The pneumatic door equiment is at least partially there.
f)The brake rigging under the car is frozen and rusted. interestingly, the cylinder is under on the car body, not on the trucks. The trucks have roller bearings, and I've been told the car rolls nicely.
What I'm asking for here is if ANYONE knows ANYTHING about locating schematics, and any other technical information on the MP-54 cars. I'm trying to see what information is available out therwe, to find out not only what equipment should be where on the car, but to look into the feasability of making the car functional again, though I stress that currently, this is in the research phase more than anything. So, if anyone has ANY information, or ideas, that would be useful, please email me privately. Thank You!!!
Philip, the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society has a museum and archives in Lewistown, Pennsylvania. My copies of the Keystone are all at my North Carolina house (and I'm in New Jersey right now) so I don't have an address handy but they have a HUGE amount of material rescued from the PRR archives, including erecting diagrams for many locomotives and MU cars, so you might find what you need there. There is a nominal charge for blueprints etc. but if they have it they are glad to share it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gents, Ladies remember the Subway Quiz posted many weeks back..?? well
how about one for London! Answers will be posted on Bustalk to make it easy to check, so for the well seasoned traveller here we go!
-----------------
Question 1:
It is possible for a train to travel from one end of the line and
return without the train operator changing ends. What line(s) and
where..?
.
Question 2:
How many stations have the same name but are at different locations?
.
Question 3:
One station served by two lines has Northbound trains departing
from cross platforms in oppsosite directions !! is this true?
.
Regards :^)
Rob London UK
1. There's a Loop outside of Kennington. The other's at Heathrow.
2. Edgware Road, Edgware Road and Edgware Road.
3. That might be Camden-Town, but don't quote me on it.
Wayne
Don't forget the Circle Line and the east end of the Central Line
(I didn't read any followups yet so here's my go at it:)
1. If you mean they don't have to change ends at all, there's only one, the Circle line in both directions. Other runs with only one end change that I can think of are:
a. Piccadilly Line-Heathrow loop
b. Central Line-Hainault loop but I don't know if any service is operated all the way around the loop and back, or if all trains turn back at Hainault. When I rode out there via Woodford we had to change trains at Hainault to leave via Newbury Park
c. The Northern line has a loop someplace near Oval; but again I don't know if there are any short turn trains that use it
2. I can only think of one that really counts- Shepherd's Bush. Some others are a stretch-- Paddington for instance is more or less three seperate stations with a hike in between. The same could be said for all transfer stations so I don't think Paddington counts in this case.
3. This is a tough one. Euston on the Northern line might fit this scenario because if I remember correctly the branches of the Northern line actually cross (and Mornington Crescent is on the easternmost branch). (Right?) But I don't know if that counts as a station served by two lines, since it's the two branches of the Northern. I don't know if the Circle line has a northbound or if it's just clockwise/counterclockwise or inner/outer, but if it does, and if Northbound=clockwise, then Aldgate might qualify. Some of the stations shared by the Met and the H&C might count too (like Great Portland Street, Euston Square, Kings X, Barbican etc.) That's a stretch. I'll admit I don't know this one.
-Dave
Rob, thanks for the quiz.
Answers
1) Northern at Kennington, amd Piccadilly at Heathrow
2) Edgware Road, Paddington, Hammersmith, Shepherds Bush.
3) Euston - Northern and Victoria
This also happens at Kings Cross but the trains are at different level but go to the same restination on different lines, Met and Pic
After posting this I shall look at the answers and cringe.
Many thanks Rob
Simon
Swindon UK
Stations with the same names in different locations:
Does anyone know if the LT ticket system allows for an interchange between Euston/Euston Square? OK, the names are different, but this is a much easier interchange than some that are advertised on the map.
Max, intersting point but it depends on what sort of Ticket you have.
A zone 1 single single(£1.40)
A Carnet (book of 10 zone one singles at £10)
A Travelcard (various prices upto £4.20)
......
The walk from Euston Square to Euston (Mainline) is less than 7 minutes and i'm sure that any interchange you could make between the two stations is catered for at Kings Cross/St Pancras.
Euston Square has Circle/Met/ Ham & City
Euston Has Northern/Victoria
...
Staying on from Euston Square and transferring at Kings Cross/StPancras allows transfer to Northern and Victoria also.
Ticket gates would keep certain tickets as Journey would be "broken"
as laid out in conditions of travel. For example buying a single from
Paddington to Golders Green, route would be via Kings Cross, if you got off at Euston Square (breaking journey)you would have to pay again!.
Why 'oh Why can't we have a simple Token system like our friends in New York!!!
Regards
Rob:^)
Rob,
I am probably unique in this, but occasionally need to get from Goodge Street to Liverpool Street at about 9:30 at night very quickly, and
my strategy is to stand between platforms at Goodge Street and take the first train, North or South, changing at Euston or Tottenham Court Road (I hate this station, and avoid it when I can). I always have a Travelcard when I do this, and so never have to worry about validity.
Looking at the map, there are several awkward journeys from the West End Branch of the Northern Line to the Circle line, such as Tottenham Court Road to Farringdon. Central Line to Holborn, Circle Line to Kings Cross involves two really awful interchanges. In fact, I was about to pose the general question, which is the worst interchange between two lines in Central London, except that the obvious answer to this question in "most of them"...
"Why 'oh Why can't we have a simple Token system like our friends in New York!!! "
Well you would still have the problem of broken journeys you mentioned in your post. It would even be agrivated at locations like King's Cross where you must exit and re-enter fare control for certain transfers. Your tickets can handle this (even if some tourists can't).
To maintain your current level of revenue, your token or averaged price would probably be in the range of £2 to £3 ($3.20 to $4.80). Of course this is a bit more than your already outrageous zone 1 base fare of £1.40 or $2.25.
Then again, you can afford massive infrastructure improvements like the Jubilee line while we dream of a 2nd Ave. line. And your zoned system for Travel Card allows a certain amount of travel on national/regional rail lines while we must buy separate passes for both.
Francis
The fares are high, but people are prepared to pay them. I suspect that the last thing that LT would want is a hike in ridership due to a fare reduction. They would have less money and to run more trains. Once you get inside the Circle Line, finding a seat can be difficult at all times of the day.
Where is the location of the abandoned PATH yard near exchange place.
Is it elevated? What is the location if it still exists?
The yard is at ground level just north and east of the Grove-Henderson station. If you are at the east end of the G-H station on the Newark-bound side, you can look into the tunnel and see where the spur branched off to go to the yard. It branched off facing northeast, went up a steep ramp, and then did a 180 degree turn, clockwise, to surface in the open-air, street-level yard.
The Henderson Street Yard was bordered by Henderson St,Steuben St,Warren St and Railroad Av. The connection to the yard was via Tunnel Y just east of Grove Street Station in Tunnel G (Westbound).
The switches have now been removed but the tunnel is still visible.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As others have said the tunnel lead is still visible on the westbound track just east of Grove St. Station, and the location that LarryRedbird posted is correct except Railroad Ave. is now called Christopher Columbus Drive. The area in question is now an elementary school. There's nothing to see of the old PATH yards. I live five blocks from there.
-Dave
As others have already stated, the yard was located at Stuben St. alog with a repair facility. I went to a job interview there back in 1980 or 81. As I recall, the shop held a maxium of 6 cars.
The 6/22 at 6PM "Field Trip - Extra Section" to the Newark PCCs will be making a stop at Grove St. on the way back. We'll also pass by current yard West of Journal Sq. where 6/4 a lot of equip. was qued up.
Mr t__:^)
Can you still eat pizza at Sbarro and go downstairs to watch the subway trains while eating pizza? What will the station look like when it is rebuilt?
Can you still eat pizza at Sbarro and go
downstairs to watch the subway trains while eating
pizza? What will the station look like when it is
rebuilt?
Yes you can - Sbarro's lower level faces out on the northbound 1/2/3/9 platform. Simon and I have done this view a few times - his trip would not be complete without a stop here. The IRT station has already been rebuilt, so I don't anticipate any changes here anytime soon.
I like Caruso's Pizza on the LIRR concourse better - they make an authentic thin crust. Sbarro's can be gloppy at times.
Wayne
Caruso's better than Sbarro's??? Better than anything, for that matter??? Wayne, you need to get some good pizza, because you've obviously never had any to judge by!
When you take a bite of a Caruso's pizza, you can almost still taste the metal can the sauce was in!
I have never tasted an aftertaste like that in my life.
I wouldn't give a slice of Caruso's to one of the homeless around Penn Station--I would be afraid of being accused of trying to poison them!
All in good humor,
Barry
I dont know about that - there may be more than one baker there :o) Several times I've had their pizza it's been OK. All right, the sauce IS a little metallic, but for me it's all in the crust. Our neighborhood pizzeria (Alfredo's, West Babylon) makes superb thin crust pizza.
The Sbarro's at WTC is good, if you can get a seat there.
Wayne
Hey Wayne:
Didn't know you are out here on the island too. Now in Commack, used to live many years on the South Shore. You must try "Albert's" pizza on Great Neck Road just south of the Copiague LIRR station. The pizza is great, has been voted one of Long Island's best for years, you can't go wrong.
While onthe topic of food, ever heard of "All American" hamburger stand on Merrick Road and HIcksville Road in Massapequa? Be ready to wait on line, just try their burgers, fries, and "tuna on bun". And you can't beat their prices.
Mike H
For a unique burger & fries, how about Pinky's across the street from Penn Stn. Used to make a big deal of it to my wife, then one day she wanted to go there while we were in the city :-(
It's a greasy spoon, but the name is catchy.
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone remember this from the (gulp!) 60's?
Hamburger Choo-Choo, on Main Street in Huntington. You'd sit at the counter, and when your order was ready, it would come "piggy-back" on a Lionel train outfitted with flat cars. Your order would stop right in front of you!
There's a restaurant like that in Sanford, North Carolina, using LGB trains. Not sure if they are still in business - I sold them the equipment back around 1993, when I was still heavily involved with The Hobby Shop in Raleigh.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was also a hamburger place like that in Manhattan, but I can't remember where--east side in the fifties or sixties, I think. It used Lionel trains, since the revival of #1 gauge by LGB and others was far in the future.
Even though the G gauge trains would provide more space and pulling power for a meal, perhaps two of the MTH O Gauge subway cars could be used with two or three flat cars or gondolas in between so it would look like a work train. The motors in those cars are fairly powerful.
A taco or hot dog place might do quite well nowadays, I would think. A locomotive pulling some gondolas could work (for the taco place, N de M lettering would be appropriate).
Of course, it's all probably contrary to modern health laws to deliver food that way, though, unless it was wrapped in plastic wrap and the flat cars or gondolas were sterilized after each run.
8-)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Is that what Ameriacns call "fast food"
Simon
Swindon UK
THERE IS on East Conklin Street (Route 24), just at the eastern edge of Farmingdale, LI, a delicatessen whose front is made up of the end of an R21 subway car. I've been there a few times. They have car windows set against the walls. I also have searched in vain for any trace of the unit number, so I could identify it.
Wayne
On Broadway near 53rd is a diner with the front of a redbird
That's Ellen's Stardust Diner right near the Winter Garden theatre. The side of the restaurant is supposed to look like an IRT RedBird without side doors. Inside that part of the restaurant looks like a subway car interior, equipped with lots of advertisements (mostly Miss Subways) from the '60s.
The owner of the restaurant was a former Miss Subways herself.
--Mark
Is the food any good? (We're big fans of Cats so it would be a convenient place for a nosh before the matinee but I've always been a bit skeptical of the place.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, the food is quite good and the portions are of decent size, though it's somewhat pricey. And now they have singing waiters/waitresses, too.
--Mark
Wayne, can we go there in October. I have to have the Railfan window.
Simon
Swindon UK
The track for the McCaul Loop in downtown Toronto curves counterclockwise into an office building, with a glass wall so you can see into (and out of) the first floor of the building. Inside the loop is a diner partially made of two Toronto Peter Witts (sorry, I couldn't find numbers). As I recall, there are no trolley poles on them, but my memory may be wrong. The entrance to the diner is from the McCaul sidewalk.
It's a good idea to keep one's mouth closed if looking up at the car roofs, though; lots of pigeons live on the roofs of the cars inside the loop.
Seeing those cars is the kind of thing you just notice as you're standing there waiting for a streetcar; there are no signs or other indications. It's perhaps like suddenly recognizing some old structure as part of an abandoned trolley or el line.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
(Recovering from computer
freezing for the last day or two
every time I went to a second message
on a bookmarked site)
Back in the late 60's Hero Heaven was the best place to get a hero sandwich,the specail had all the cheese's and all the cold cuts one could find,i used to get lunch there for the building engineers in my dept at rockefeller center,a few blocks away,we all could eat the large back then.....
Yes, and I think there's one on Route 109 north of Straight-Path out here in WB Land as well. I'll have to double check on that one.
I've been living here in WB for ten years. I'm about 700 yards east of the Babylon-to-Bethpage main line spur.
Wayne
The pizzas may be gloppy but the spagetti has that kind of sauce that when you get it on your clothes the stains just dont wash out mmmm.
For me it is the perfect day. Breakfast at Sbarros overlooking the rush hour scene, orange juice,home fries with extra fat, sausage, fruit all for $4.00. Redbirds one after another. Straight into the station then Chambers - 96th, 96th - Chambers and so on until lunch. Redbirds all the way, no silver for me. Lunch at Sbarro. Pizza with all the bits on, pipeing hot, with a large Pepsi ( not diet). After the silver has passed it is into the station just in time to catch a Redbird it does not matter in whch direction as long as my rightful place, the Railfan window is clear. Up and down again with perhaps a swap to the East side IRT. Coffee and muffins at Grand Central then a Railfan window trip on the No7 express to Main Street. Back to 34th and Sbarro for dinner. Spagetti with Chicken, salad, and those little roll things which give you Lizzard breath. One last ride to 96th. Then back to the Hotel.
What a day
Simon
Swindon UK
I'd take a hot dog (or four) at Nathan's watching the West End, Brighton & Culver Lines go back and forth anyday! (You can't see the Sea Beach from the corner of Stillwell & Surf Aves).
Even if they don't have Redbirds ....
--Mark
You are making me feel hungry.
If you ever come to the UK try fish and chips at Ealing Broadway.
Simon
Swindon UK
What happend to the needix orange juce and hot dog places in N.Y.C. i hear they went out of busness....damm good hot dogs and orange juce.
Yes, Nedick's was great. One distinction, however: the Orange was a drink not a juice!
As Todd said they along with White Tower are gone. There used to be one in Penn Stn above Track 19 on the 7th Ave side (actually Penn had two of them). Many times I had a greasy egg sandwich on my way in from LI. In my coin collection I have a Nedicks' Nickle ...
"Eat Better Far Less ... 1959". I also have a Woodstock $1, but that getting way off topic.
Mr t__:^)
There used to be a place on the upper East Side, Yorkville, I think called the "Third Avenue El". This deli/restaurant featured posters and artwork depicting it's name-sake as well as an extensive model elevated railroad (built and maintained by the famous Joe Frank using Traction Models equipment). Sadly, it is long gone. I think that the folks at the now defunct "Broadway Limited" purchased the collection after it closed. Today, there is a bar at the end of the Pelham line called "The Third Rail" that features neat murals of the El and subway cars. Frequented by transit workers, this is a favorite stop of mine while rail-fanning the system when I'm in town. You can't beat the "Riverdale Diner" at 238th Street and Broadway in the Bronx for breakfast. Get a seat near the windows and watch the action coming and going from the nicely restored 238th Street Station. Their apple pie is great!
Having thought I'd seen everything in the subway by now, the sight of a wedding party at the City Hall station on the N threw me for a loop. Here was the bride in white gown (no train - and don't even say it), groom in tux, cleric and about 12 friends. They were all boarding a north-bound R as my south-bound N came in across the platform about 11:00 this AM.
Last Saturday here in Chicago, I saw a group of well-dressed people coming out of the Clark/Lake L station (as I was coming out of the Clark/Lake subway station) heading towards the City/County Building. Only when I saw the carnations on their lapels and dresses did I realize it was a wedding party! I mainly didn't realize until then because the men were not wearing tuxedo jackets or cummerbunds (it was over 90 degrees!) and the bride's dress, while fancy, was not a traditional wedding dress.
I guess they took the warnings on the radio about not driving downtown (various and sundry festivals, in addition to the usual tourist crowd) seriously!
From 5/15/41 to 3/19/54 IRT Gate Cars 1580 to 1600 operated on the Dyre Avenue Line. In 1954 they were replaced by Hi-V's. Through service to Dyre didn't begin until 1958 even though the flyover had been completed several years earlier.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS After October 1950 these were the only Gates left in service on the IRT.
Larry--
Do you (or anyone else) know what happened to those cars? Scrapped? Wouldn't the subway cars have been Lo-Vs rather than Hi-Vs? It's funny--I don't remember IRT standards there before the 7th Avenue started through-running, but I may have ridden them.
If the el cars were retired in 1954, there's another early TA decision to think about.
I'm surprised there had been 21 cars assigned to the service. Are there that many on the shuttle operation nowadays?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Ed: I agree that the number of Gates seems excessive given that the rush headway was 10 mins and the base headway was 15. Perhaps they were assigned in anticipation of much higher ridership and when that did not materialize they simply remained there as the Gates were already dissappearing from the remaining el.
The Gates were replaced by Deckroof Hi-V's 3664,3665,3667,3680 and 3699 and by Hedley Hi-V's 3711,3712,3717 and 3748 on 3/19/54. These were non-MUDC Hi-V's so it would have made sense to assign them to a line with two car trains.
These only lasted until October 10,1955 when they were replaced by 14 Steinway Motors; 4025-4036 the original "Boilers" and 4573 and 4756.
I do not the the current car requirements for the shuttle but I did ride use the line in 1962-63 when it was still signed up as #9. Three 5 car trains ran from about 8p-11p, then 2 until 1am the 1 when the headway was cut to 40 mins.
Larry,redbirdR33
A few gate cars remained in work train service on the 3rd Ave line until the mid 50's.
Have you ever heard of Farmer's Oval? Do you know where it is? Does it have something to do with the Myrtle el? Is it somewhere between Fresh Pond Road and Metropolitan Ave? Can you enlighten me with any history?
Karl B.
P.S. Was Fresh Pond Yard formerly called Farmer's Oval or was there another section identified by that name?
Karl: I'm afraid that outside of the Bronx my knowledge of local streets is somewhat limited. I looked to three sources for any info about the area you mentioned. Prior to 1915 the Myrtle Avenue El ran on a surface ROW north of Wycloff Av. This was know as the Lutheran Cemetary Line in the early days and the Fresh Pond Yard in 1910 was called the "Lutheran Yard." The yard was built in 1906 and greatly enlarged in 1915.Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry; Thanks for trying! I remembered that old name of Lutheran Yard right after I wrote you so I realized my mistake. I still have a feeling that there is an area in that general locale known years ago as Farmer's Oval and I think Ed Watson sent me a transit picture about 45 years ago identified as such. I never heard it again and can no longer find the picture. I guess it will be another one of those unanswered questions.
Thanks for checking it out!
Karl B.
On NJT arrow coaches, in the cab there is a red box labeled "Flares and Torpedos". What are torpedos? I read that there were powerful
explosives used as a signal. If this were true wouldn't the explosion damage the tracks, wheels? How do the look like?
It's like a big firecracker that could be strapped to the rail. It warned a following train that there was a train stopped ahead. The railroads used a lot of them in the old days before radio, CTC and the modern signals. It did not damage any wheels or rails but made a loud noise when the following train ran over it. When a train hit a torpedo they were supposed to stop. I think it was the duty of the rear brakeman on the first train to place and remove an unexploded torpedo when they were ready to move.
The torpedo was something like a large firecracker,running over it caused a large popping sound. The use of two topedoes at a time was required just in case one did not go off. It was mainly used in "dark" or unsignalled territory if one train in a block was doing less than track speed the conductor or brakeman would place two torpedoes as necessary to warn the following train. The explosion of the torpedoe(s) meant that the following train was to proceed at "reduced speed" prepared to stop short of a train or obstruction usually for a distance of a mile. "Reduced Speed" was a judgemental speed depending on the physical characteristics of the line and prevailing weather conditions.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I heard this was used on trolleys in Brooklyn too at one time.
I was thinking about this while on a south-bound E train at 50 St waiting for a C train to cross ahead...
Could the reason why the E once used the lower level of 42 St be because planners of that line expected congestion when the CPW local and 53 St lines merged into the 8th Ave local line. Rather than have an E-train wait at 50 St for a C train to cross ahead (and then wait even longer for the C to load and unload heavy volumes of passengers), have both E and C trains at 42 Street. And I guess it would make more sense to hold a train at 42 St instead of 50 St, because it can load more passengers while waiting.
I could be wrong...what do you think?
That could be - I don't know the answer. In any event, keep in mind that many years back the E ran express rather than local on 8th Avenue. However, your same logic would apply to E trains from 53rd Street merging with A trains from CPW. The last use I recollect for the lower level of 42 St/8 Ave was for the Acqueduct Racetrack specials many years back.
I always thought that the main reason that this lower level station was built was to prevent the westward extension of the IRT (No. 7 line).
-- Ed Sachs
It certainly serves that purpose - whether or not that was the intention is another issue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Given the nature of one John Hylan and his intense dislike for private transit operation, it's quite possible the lower level was deliberately put in to block the Flushing line. Supposedly, the bumper blocks of the Flushing tracks are on the other side of the tunnel wall at 41st St.
Whatever the reason, the lower level sat unused until Aqueduct Special service was implemented around 1959. I still remember the escalator at the extreme southwest end of the mezzanine which was marked, "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special" (it led directly to the lower level), and the "Entrance for Aqueduct Specials at 40th St." signs which were placed all along the mezzanine.
Rush hour E trains also used the lower level during the early 70s. In this way, they could get into 42nd St. without having to jockey for position when it came to merging with A trains. The merger was accomplished just before 34th St.
The northern end of the lower level was also used for many years as an underpass between the uptown and downtown platforms. You have to remember that the 42nd St. mezzanine wasn't fully incorporated into the paid fare zone until the 80s. Prior to that, only the sides of the mezzanine where the stairways led to the platforms were paid fare zones. In other words, there were separate turnstiles for the downtown and uptown platforms. The middle of the mezzanine was not, and there was no free transfer to the IRT and BMT. The downtown platform, for instance, had signs which said, "For Washington Heights, the Bronx and Queens trains, use underpass." Passengers were directed to the last staircase at the northern end of the southbound platform, where you descended to the lower level and followed the signs to the uptown platform, reemerging at the southernmost staircase. There was a loose chain link fence which blocked off access to the rest of the lower level platform. I remember using the underpass in 1968; the lower level was dimly lit and looked like a ghost town, even though it was in use. It gave me the creeps.
When I did the tour last year with Mark & other SubTalkers we used a mid-platform staircase to get down there (it looks like one of those storage closets, but the door opens to a stair).
The escalator is still there at the South end (I didn't venture that far, but could see it was still there). North end, some did venture that way too, but again not me. Red lights still shown on the signals. It was still as dimly lit as you remember, but the TA had cleaned it up a little for us.
Mr t__:^)
When I went down a couple of years ago with a TM tour we descended via the north end. Some folks went all the way to the south end and got chewed out by the Museum folks (we had been asked to not venture much past mid-platform). There was a bunch of stuff stacked on the platform down toward the south end and the rails were shiny, as if a work train had been down there recently or it had been used as a bypass.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
E trains could still bypass 42nd St. via the lower level if for some reason they could not gain access to the downtown platform (stalled train, etc.).
The lower level at 42nd St./8th Ave is used for storing out of service trains mostly.
I don't know either. And I don't know for how many years (if ever) the lower level was regularly used. But moving the merge point one stop down the line wouldn't make sense. Exiting passengers would have an extra flight of stairs to ascend, Queens bound trains would still be on the upper level possibly confusing passengers, and actually more people get off at 34/8 than at 42/8 from the E. Additionally, passengers would be running down the stairs at an unsafe speed (like at 50/8 presently and Bergen when you had F local & F express) so they can get the next downtown local. You'd be suprised at the number of passenger injuries running down stairs!
They could just extend that ramp they have there lower. Ramps are easier than stairs.
Yes, I've heard that explanation here before. I think it is pretty well established that that is indeed the reason it was built.
The reasons for building the lower level SB at 42/8 Ave are probably lost in history - but another reason was no doubt to provide a "reservoir" platform where trains could be started/terminated without interfering with thru train traffic. Whatever the case, the E trains last usded the lower level in 1976 - and I believe the extra fare Aqueduct specials ended in the late 70's as well.
Another reason I have heard is that the original design of the 8th Ave IND had a lower level terminal at 34th/8 Ave for trains to/from Upper Manhattan and Queens. The large space below the platforms at that station would suggest such a plan. So of course, a lower lowel needed to be provided at 42d St as well, but that's as far as it got.
Thanks to Sid Keyles and the NJ-ARP we now have some photos of this new light rail line in NJ: Hudson Bergen Light Rail: A First Look.
Thanks Sid!
--Dave
Great stuff! More new rails for me to ride and new numbers for me to collect. I have created a new page in the Master Numbers Book right after Path K/Newark PCC for it.
They look like they're almost ready to roll. Do they have an opening date set?
And those trolleys - they're the same ones Boston has, no? (Japanese make, hyphenated name) No doubt they'll be the ones Newark is getting next year.
Wayne
I believe the projected start date for the first segment of Hudson Bergen Light Rail (to Exchange Place from both 45th Street Bayonne and West Side Ave Jersey City) is March 1, 2000. The vehicles are manufactured by Kinkisharyo (which I've also seen as Kinki-Sharyo). I think that company did manufacture the Type 7's in Boston. The Hudson Bergen cars have a resemblence to the light rail vehicles in San Jose, although those are made by UTDC of Canada.
Paul is correct - I should have said 34th Street in Bayonne rather than 45th Street.
Supposedly March 2000 is the opening date for the first segments, Exchange Place to Liberty State Park, then two branches to West Side Avenue in Jersey City and 34th Street Bayonne. Further extensions to Hoboken, Weehawken, and Bergen County are supposed to be done in the future.
The same cars will be used on the Newark city subway once the new shops and yard in Bloomfield are finished.
I believe the cars in Boston are of a different design. I'd have to check about the company that built them.
The Hudson-Bergen LRT is significant because it is the first major New York area expansion of rail transit into new territory in many years. (Midtown Direct, 63rd Street, and Chrystie Street are primarily connections between existing lines.)
An interesting sidelight ... although in NJT colors these LRV will be maint. and operated by a private company ! Now if I could only find my "trade" issue I would be able to say who ....
Mr t__:^)
The Hudson Bergen LRTS will be operated by 21st Century Rail Corporation, which is owned by Raytheon, Itochu and Kinkisharyo.
Thanks Sid, that saves me from looking for the "trade" issue with the NJT Manager/Dir hanging onto the railing of a GP, she had a tight grip
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone have any inside information about if the TA is still appointing Provisional Train Operators. My friend was on standby for the last class, and we were wonder if there will be more classes.
Thanks
I have never heard of any provisional train operators being appointed. Of course, things do change. Provisional only means being appointed to the job pending taking and passing the civil service exam.
Provisional train operators are out there now. They will be required to take the next civil service exam and pass to keep their handles. They were hired after the TA put out an exam to which only 30+ people passed. Apparently the TA decided they wanted the train worker titles in the worst way; when the union refused to negotiate, the TA put out an exam complex to TSSs, therefore creating an emergency to hire provisionals.
The requirements for provisional T/O were simply to be one
year in title and a satisfactory work record.
As usual the TA plays games.
They were turning down people wih exemplary work records
for petty issues. More often than not it was because for
whatever reason some boss didn't like them, and this was
pay back.
CIP#1: A conductor with 12 years, no disciplinary record,
and 97% of his sick time. He was turned down. Reason
given- he had an AWOL in 1990. Real reason, he thinks it's
because the line Superintendent has it for him. They had
words two years ago.
CIP#2: A conductor with 15 years was turned down. He has
several comendations in his record. Management refuses to
tell him a reason. He thinks it's because he was recently
elected a union officer. Since no one will give him an
official reason why, we can only speculate.
CIP#3: A tower operator with 2 years, and 3 years as a
conductor. He has no disciplinary record. Unfortunately he
broke his foot last year and was out for 10 days. So they
turned him down.
CIP#4: Myself, a certified locomotive engineer. I have run
freight trains that would make a TA train operator cringe
with fear. I have 13 years experience in this industry. I
was the TA's FIRST high school intern. I worked on TA
subway cars for the different vendors, air brake,
propulsion, doors. Wouldn't I be the perfect candidate?
When I asked for a reason, they refused to tell me one.
I took this matter to the head of the department, the man who personaly presented me with an award this March. He's on vacation, so it remains to be seen. Suffice it to say, I'M PISSSED. If I don't get this, I'm outta here. There is too much agrivation here, for me to stay. As a liscenced engieer, I could have wrote my ticket anywhere. I chose my home and favorite railroad. This is how they thank me. I'm disgusted to see how far this organization has degenerated.
If your file number as a conductor is above 3200 and you haven't been called yet, you won't be. I seriously doubt they will recycle the list to take a second look at anyone. They have already exhausted the list, so there won't be many T/O classes this summer. Have to wait for this July's test to be certified.
But that's what those cynical bastards want, an artificial shortage. So they can hire from the street, by resume. By-passing the civil service system. It's what they have coveted for years.
It was exactly 34 years ago today on the I.R.T., that the #2 & #5 trains swapped terminals in The Bronx. And that's what's happening today: Sunday, June 13, 1965.
Hey middle track Jack---I got a real one for you if you're as sharp as you believe you are. It's a hard one. Do you know the exact date when the Brighton Beach Express went from the #1 train to the "D" train, and when the Sea Beach Express went from being the #4 train to the "N" train? Or anyone else out there, for that matter?
It did not go directly from the 1 to D. The 1 became the Q first, then the D replaced in on 11-26-67. There was no exact date when the 1 and 4 became the Q and N. I guess whenever the officials ordering the R-27 signs assigned the new letters to the various routes, around 1960. Then the new cars, up to the 32's gradually began appearing on different routes (The QT was the first. and I think the Q was in '64 with the first 32's. The N was somewhere around then also) The letters for the southern division first appeared on a map with one of the printings of the World's Fair edition.
Eric B. You're a gentleman and a scholar. I got a picture off the internet that was taken on May 2, 1964 showing the Sea Beach with an
"N" on it. So it probably happened at that time as you said. Thanks.
R-27s also ran on the Q in the early 60s. There is a photo in Gotham Turnstiles of a Manhattan-bound Q train of R-27s at Newkirk Ave. around 1961, as well as another photo from the same spot of a Brighton express of BMT standards (perhaps a Bankers Special). There was a posting some time ago that the R-27s covered all weekend southern Division routes during the early 60s. This would have included the N, QB, RR, T on Saturdays, and TT during nights and Sundays.
The R-32s made their debut on the Q, BTW. They pushed the Triplexes over to the West End.
One other note: a safe answer would be Nov. 26, 1967. All BMT number markings were officially dropped with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection; however, all Southern Division trains were carrying letter markings by August of 1965 - except for the R-11s on the Franklin Ave. shuttle. They also appeared on the B line in 1968 sporting #3 signs.
Steve: I would concur with you on that date. The only other equiptment which could display numbered routes at the time was the R-16's and they were given some ad-hoc roll signs I believe.
Best Wishes to your parents for a long and happy marriage.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, the R-16s were still sporting number signs on the Eastern Division until the Big Change. I rode a #15 train over the Williamsburg Bridge on Sept. 23, 1967. Little did I realize that I would not ride on another train of R-16s until October of 1986.
It seems that many of the R-16s were transferred elsewhere after the Chrystie St. connection opened, and that some R-27/30s came over intially to take their places, followed by R-7/9s when the KK made its debut.
Thanks for the best wishes, BTW.
This is off-topic, but my parents were married on June 13, 1946. 53 years later, they're still an item.
For many years a half sunk tugboat called the "Cambrai" was moored next to the Coney Island Creek Bridge,when the Bridge was rebuilt to four tracks the old tug dissappeared.
Does anyone have any info on this old boat? She was always something to look for if you rode the West End or Sea Beach Lines.
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hi all,
I'm making a H-B Light Rail track map after seeing Sid Keyles's photo of track map at:
http://www.nycsubway.org/fieldtrips/hblr/hblr31.jpg
If anyone know each station's name, locations, switches, yard diagrams, etc... or anyone have actual copy of HBLR track map, Please let me know. I have a draft .gif of HBLR track map if anyone wants to see it and offer help in locating these info I requested.
Thanks,
Michael Adler
You may find the jpeg map posted at http://www.ci.jersey-city.nj.us/docs/lightrailmap.htm helpful.
Can someone please clear this up for me -
How long is the FunPass good from the first time you swipe it?
I thought it was until 3AM the next day, but a friend told me it was 27 hours after the first swipe....
Thank you.
No, 3 AM. The only way you can get 27 hours out of it is to swipe it for the first time at the stroke of midnight!
Have you tried that or does it cut the pass off at 3am (three hours later)?
Thanks for the info . . . I think that it should be good for 27 hours after FIRST USE, like the monthly and the weekly cards because the way it is now is really bad for nocturnal people who first leave their houses at let's say 10 or 11 p.m. They could not use a FunPass for their entire "days".
The MTA is assuming that we're all on the same daytime schedule, which clearly we are not.
While we're talking about people working at night, has anyone else gotten that comic book from the Public Art Fund that they have been advertising in the subway? It's all about people working at night - the full comic book was good, but almost all of it is on the ads in the subway so there's not much extra stuff to read if you've seen all the ads in the subway.
You need to remember that the Fun Pass isn't intended to be used by "workers", it's for tourist. George Pataki had it extended to 3 AM so tourist attending a movie or play in Manhattan could get back home before it expired.
Mr t__:^)
That makes sense . . . I just don't think we should treat our visitors better than our residents!
Slides of Harry Pinsker
The current status of Dallas, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Miami will begin the evening. Followed by SEPTA trolley operations, New York City Cleveland Pittsburgh, Torronto and San Francisco during the 70's. Ending the evening will be black and white slides of PCC operation in St Louis, New Orleans, Boston anf New York area railroads.
The monthly meetings of the New York Division are held on the third Friday of
each month. The next monthy meeting is 16 Jul 99. Doors open at 6:15 with
sales table available for the members. Meeting starts at 7:15. Admission is
$5.00 for non-members. Member's admmission is free.
Location is the College of Insurance Building in lower Manhattan. Address is
101 Murray Street, between Greenwich and West Street. Nearby subway stations
are the Chambers Street and the PATH World Trade Center. Street parking is
available after 7:00 PM.
Membership application are available at the door. Included in the membership:
a. Monthly publication "The Bulletin", which covers past, present and the
future of New York area rail transportation and the latest national coverage of
rail news as submitted by the members.
b. Advance trip notices
c. Free admission to the meetings.
The web site for the NY Division ERA is off line pending relocation.
For more information and a membership application enclose a large self
addressed stamped envelope and mail to:
New York Division
Electric Railroad Association
PO Box 3001
New York, NY 10008-3001
a public service announcement ....
Phil Hom
ERA3620
Does any one have any idea why the jamaica ave EL was demolished?
Does any one have any photos of the EL being dismantled? What would happen if a train would have back then attemted to "travel on the abandonded section" of the EL? Would the EL collapse? due to no maintenance? when did the EL finally close? what year was this EL torn down and how did they tear it down? if you have the answers to the above posting please contact me thank you.
Some answers:
Service from Queens Blvd to 168th - ended in 1977. Structure from Sutphin Blvd to 168 demollished soon afterward.
Service from 121 St to Queens Blvd ended about 1985. Structure was not demolished till about 1989.
The el was removed in order to re-route the J trains into the Archer Ave subway lower level, one block east, which opened in Dec. 1988.
Correction: The Metropolitian Ave/Queens Blvd. part of the el was demolished in late '90/early '91
Large (nd some small) merchants in Jamaica hoped that removal of the El would improve the commercial climate, and they lobbied long and hard for it.
The El was not in bad condition. It was one of those built as an extension pursuant to the Dual Contracts of 1913. The J line section on Fulton Street would fail a lot sooner than the demolished section.
Speaking of which, I certainly wouldn't want to see it, but it would be interesting to see how the MTA would react if part of the structure on Fulton Street were to have a serious failure. At one point in my memory, it would probably be an excuse to make the J line history and run shiny "express" buses.
The merchants lobbied for it thinking it would open up Jamaica av to sunshine. What it did instead is take away the one good reason for being on Jamaica Avenue. From what I have read elsewhere, closing the El all but killed the shopping district.
Demolition of the rest of the structure would undo the Archer Ave connection, something they would not do after spending the money to build it.
They installed new columns from Crescent to Cleveland.This suggests the TA intends to save the rest of the line. Removal of the eastern part of the line didn't improve Jamaica Ave too much.
The last 3 stations (168 st/160 st/Sutphin Blvd) were closed on 9/9/77 and were completely demolished within 1 year I don't know if www.nycsubway.org has pictures of the demolition like they do have of the Culver Shuttle's demolition aound the same time, but I can remember as a child waiting for a Q44 bus to the Bronx Zoo watching the el being demolished. It was still in its early stage, because all I saw was men with chainsaws chopping off the catwalk from the 168th st-bound track while a bunch of other workers loafed around up on the platform. My mother commented on that, that they're not earning their money (lol). I was sad because I knew I was cursed forever with a bus ride to Jamaica whenever I had to go to the doctor or whenever my mother went shopping, which was torture for me as a child because I suffered from severe motion-sickness as a child on anything that moved, with the exception of subway trains. Queens Blvd served as the terminal from 9/9/77 to 4/15/85, which could be very annoying because it was not designed as a terminal and sometimes you went to the wrong platform to get the wrong train, only to see the other train on the other side leave first (kind of like the Q train at Brighton Beach today). After 1985 a small section was demolished quickly as to facilitate the connecton to the ramp down to the new Archer Ave. tunnel. The remaining part of the line remained and decayed until community pressure forced the TA to finally chop it down in early 1991. I heard from a friend who lived there at the time that shortly after it closed the unused northern token booth at Queens Bvd. was used as a place to sell drugs in 86-88. He said that it stopped when the TA demolished the stairwell leading up to it.
I did sneak up on to the Metropolitian Ave. station in 1987 with some friends (being a mischevious teenager) and I "stole" a light fixture which had fallen from the canopy. I still have it.
That same summer, I too was up there. My friends and I salvaged some of the original station signs from Metropolitan Av. and Queens Blvd. There wasn't much else to preserve. A strange note: the third rail was still alive. We connected a bank of lights that I found, so we could see as we took the signs down, and lo and behold, it worked!
Some one told me once that the traffic lights or some other such depended on the power from the el. I don't really know.
Those signs are now up at TMNY.
The el was still connected to the power grid from a substation about 2 blocks east of where the tracks used to come to an end at Supthin Blvd. My friend was sure that the third rail was dead, and it took a lot of convincing to stop him from touching it. I pointed down the line to the nearest signal and showed him it was still live (the signals were all on, but all red with the trip-cocks up). Not a real rocket scientist. He now is a manager at McDonalds...LOL.
Did you take any pictures?
I remember driving along Jamaica Ave. underneath the abandoned portion on Oct. 22, 1988. My sister was getting married that day, and I went into the city to pick up one of the guests. Everything was still intact, although the staircases from the street to the station mezzanines had been removed.
Demolition of that segment was under way in October of 1990. I was on a J train to Parsons/Archer and looked out past 121st St. before the train turned off into the subway. The plate girders which had held the tracks were gone, but the support columns and cross beams were still in place.
In the NY Daily News Monday June 14, page 5, is an article about design flaws, red tape and unexpected structural problems have prolonged several subway-station rehabilitation projects - in one case by nearly three years, according to a report.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the article, don't delay your thoughts, on this article.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I doubt that any of us are surprised by the delays. Does this mean that when the Manhattan Bridge south
tracks re-open (this year?) the Canal St.bridge station
will not be ready for it?Stuck in the Station
The TA has a very poor engineering staff. Their designs are stuck in the '30's. The construction management staff is worse. The Williamsburg Bridge is on time and well designed because it is a DOT project with outside engineers.
The big problems cited in the News article are:
14/8th Ave-The TA failed to notice a water main at the site of a new stairway.
Canal St-An error by the contractor caused a building to sink-it had to be torn down.
[The TA has a very poor engineering staff. Their designs are stuck in the '30's. The construction management staff is worse.]
Is this true or is this your opinion? what do you mean by "stuck in the '30's?"
I happen to like seeing the "30s" designs. They are part of the essence of the subway. Take a look at two stations - Lexington Avenue/63rd Street and Borough Hall (#4/#5) in Brooklyn. Which one do you like better? Even the "plain" IND stations have their own charm, with their colored (often complementary so) tile bands. Nostrand Avenue station in Brooklyn has the nicest color of any IND station.
The period architectural elements should be preserved wherever possible. No more repeats of 3rd Avenue-149th Street, where they buried the beautiful terra-cotta cartouches behind a wall of neo-modern tile. However I do have to say that the murals they installed there are quite lovely ("Un Raza, Un Mundo...")
Wayne
I agree. But the Lex/63 station doesn't look worse than an IND station. Although I think the color scheme there isn't one that I like. The ceilings at that station are much better than the ones at your average station.
Agreed. There is far too much orange in that station; hard on the eyes. They should have used the orange as an accent. By the way, there are already leaks at 21st-Queensbridge (complete with dangling stalactites), AND at Roosevelt Island - leaking through the acoustic materials etc.
Some of the Brooklyn IND stations have interesting architectural variations - odd-placed/odd-shaped mezzanines, vent grilles, some stations have white-tiled pillars. Yes, the tile designs are plain, often to the point of blandness, but they have their own kind of "charm". Some colors are awful (i.e. Broadway_East-NY - UGH!), but some are quite attractive.
Wayne
I have nothing against bathroom tiles. I just, as an engineer, like to see modern structural design, something that is lacking in recent subway work.
He means that the TA engineering staff is stuck in traffic and can't get out of Midtown. Specifically, the 30s.
The design of recent work-63 St connection, Archer Ave etc. is basically 1930's IND. The TA's strucural engineers have not discovered the 1990's. They use heavy beams, rather than modern structural design. Look at the rediculous beams and columns used in the reconstruction of Alabama Ave/Bway compared to the oiginal lightweight lattice girders.
You can't blame the TA for everything. By law, before you dig a hole, you have to call an 800 number, and a company named 'JULS' (Joint Underground Locating Service) comes out and makes EVERYTHING that is underground. The only way one misses a water main is if it's not marked. And let's not forget that NYC has been inhabited for over 300 years, and for at least the last 150, thing have been getting buried. Until the modern era (say the late 1880s) no one really bothered to write down where this stuff was. And over time, even if was written down, things get lost. There are still ancient water and sewer mains in the city, and you hear about them every time one of them ruptures.
The same thing happens with buildings. Sometimes, things are not built according to plan, and many times, the plans are just plain wrong.
-Hank
And let's not forget that NYC has been inhabited for over 300 years, and for at least the last 150, thing have been getting buried.
This is so true. Bob Diamond's "rediscovered" tunnel under Atlantic Ave is a large example. I'm sure there are other things that are going to be "discovered".
--Mark
Yes I have seen the abysmal speed that the 14th Street-8th Avenue project is moving at. They don't even have the survey marks for the laths for the new tile on the 8th Avenue walls up yet. They're busy plugging leaks and such down in the "L" station, and the tile design was in the "let's throw some spare tiles up and see what happens" stage as of May 15. They are sure taking their sweet time down there.
Wayne
In the NY Post Monday June 14, page 22, is a article about the D.C. Subway is light years ahead of the NY Subway, by selling transit riders ''smart'' cards that do not have to be swiped or inserted to open turnstiles.
After the good folks of SubTalk reads the article, your smart thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Since I'm no longer a NYC commuter, did the Post state the cars cost $5.00 blank? That is having the card cost $5.00, and filling it will cost the same as a paper Metro Card. Did the Post state the card is only good on the rail and not on surface transit like NY. Also the NY card can be for transfer between rail and surface, where WMATA still uses a paper transfer system with an additional fare.
So who is light years ahead? At least you can go from the Bronx to the Rockaway on one fare of the cost of a sidewalk Frank.
Phil Hom
ERA3620
[Metro Card. Did the Post state the card is only good on the rail and not on surface transit like NY. Also the NY card can be for transfer between rail and surface, where WMATA still uses a paper transfer
system with an additional fare.]
Good points, but I "think" that Washington plans to expand the Smart Card system beyond the rail line. Chicago is next to get this Cubic system & NYC will follow (all three use same turnstile/farebox mfg).
P.S. I already have my CTA Go (smart) Card, it's a test card ;-)
Mr t
I believe the article does explain the initial cost, but does not mention the other limitations. Obviously, to be worthwhile it would have to work on buses and allow transfers. There is no denying that it would be quick and convenient. Would New Yorkers agree to pay for the blanks? Or would the MTA not charge it? (article not available in online edition)
I'll do some reading of my old Cubic newsletters & see if I can supply some PR stuff about how THEY see the future in Washington, Chicago & NYC.
BTW, Anybody in Wash. D.C. who no longer wants his/her Smart Card, I'ld love to trade ( how about the Yankee set of four MCs) or buy it.
Mr t__:^)
You can buy the Smart Card online at http://170.121.15.101/smartrip.cfm.
The cost is $25.00 (5 for the card, 20 is for the fare) As far as I can tell, you have to buy both.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
[The cost is $25.00 (5 for the card, 20 is for the fare) As far as I can tell, you have to buy both. ]
Thanks for the tip Phil, BUT yuk, that's pretty steep. Residual value on dip/swipe cards of a collection doesn't enhance their worth.
Mr t__:^)
Does the use of a new card in DC mean that they will now have an "expiration" date like the NY and Chicago cards? One of the good things about both DC and San Francisco from the start has been that you can carry those cards for years and they are still usable. It can be a time-saver at places like National Airport in DC not to have to go to a machine, put down luggage, and dig for bills or change to get a card. But if they're "improving" things by stopping that, I can only guess that the loonies at the MTA have exported their stupidity.
I still think that the whole notion of having pre-paid cards expire is thievery. No one has ever given me a reasonable explanation why the cards should expire, other than for the TA to rip people off to get additional income for services not rendered. Currency and stamps don't expire and the cards are are similar, except that a different amount can be deducted if fares change. And the DC and BART cards let you know how much is on the card--you can look at it at home without having to go all the way to a subway station.
People have said that an expired card can be mailed to the TA. Would anyone in his or her right mind trust the TA to acknowledge receipt, let alone issue a new card? I think they depend on people being unwilling to spend two or three dollars for certified mail when the card balance is $5 or $6. I wouldn't be surprised if they also charge for postage and handling. When someone lives several hundred miles from the City, it's almost impossible to handle.
A while back, I heard some discussion about an initial difficulty with the DC card--it was deducting value whether you intended it or not. Apparently if you even walked near a turnstile with the card in your pocket, it got activated and WMATA got your money. If that's still the case, what happens if you go to a subway booth to get maps or information and then want to enter at another station (or get on a bus, when that part of it is put into effect)?
Those cards are supposed to work like the E-Z Pass, though with E-Z pass, you can at least take it off the windshield if you don't want your account charged--you might need a receipt immediately, for example.
Chicago just stopped using tokens completely--do they still take cash? And what's the status of unused tokens? A cash gift to the CTA or can they be redeemed?
There are times I think that the Luddites were right.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Isn't the Upper West Side trying Smart Card in conjuction with the banks up there?
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
No, what they were trying was a sort of electronic cash. It didn't work out at all.
-Hank
Why is it that US cities have passes which deduct each fare as used and have to be "refilled"? In Toronto, Montréal, Vancouver and probably other Canadian cities our transit commissions issue monthly passes which provide unlimited rides for a set price.
In Toronto, the current monthly pass is C$88.50 (C$81 if you subscribe which is a real deal since the pass is mailed out two weeks prior to the next month and the amount deducted from your chequing account). In Montréal, the passes are about half the cost of Toronto's (more provincial funding there).
It just seems like such a hassle to have to continually refill your cards when ours are used for a month then recycled.
In Toronto the Metropass is valid on all route within Toronto, unlimited transfers included. It has certainly encouraged transit use because you no longer think about the cost of individual trips.
Also, GO Transit, which is the commuter rail and bus system in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) sells passes (they're priced on distance travelled). They also offer a combined pass with the TTC which provides a saving over buying the two passses separately.
The same is available in New York and Chicago. You can buy a monthly, weekly, or daily card; OR you may buy a card that stores value and deducts as you use it.
-Hank
1. You're talking about a "flash pass", really not much more than a ticket. The other major vendor, GFI, had a mag reader that deducted "rides", i.e. you bought a qty of rides vs. value or unlimited.
Both companies now have machines that can handle more complicated transactions. e.g. the farebox/turnstile is smart enough to deduct only .75 from a senior.
2. Refund: You can bring a "value" MC to any Token Booth up to a year after it expires ... so you have about a year to use the money & another year to to MOVE it to another card. You only have to send it in if you want a refund.
3. Re-fills: You can buy a "unlimited" monthly MC which is equlivant to the monthly flash pass of Toronto OR you can put $20 on a value card and re-fill it as necessary.
4. Why do cards expire: the vendor/TA decided that MC have a service life, beyond that the card may fail (scratches/worn surface/etc.) The Smart card won't fail, for these reasons, because it doesn't have to touch (go inside) the equipment.
I have a few value cards because I'm a occasional customer, also my kids borrow them when they take LI Bus or travel to Manhattan. If I still worked in Manhattan I would buy a Mail-N-Ride value card. One side would be for the LIRR, the other would include a few free rides that would be enough for me since in 11 years most of my trips on the subways were only twice a day. (the unlimited monthly is a little more expensive, so you have to make a few extra trips to make it a good value ... I wouldn't get a warm feeling just knowing the extra/free rides were there in case I needed them)
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or NYC-DOT, so this is not an official explaination ... but I hope it helps & as I've said I personally feel the TA has made the system much more complex then it needs to be !
Mr t__:^)
At least the TA FINALLY eliminated the double fare for bus/subway riders. Unfortunatelky the various electronic systems are more often, SF, DC used for oitrageous distance usage fares, and SF does not offer any flash pass.
I know that Philadelphia has had unlimited rides for set(yet fluctuating) prices. On the Regional Rail, Cross Country and TransPass, one fare and you're set for the week/month.
I presume they would supply some type of case as the PA does for EZ Pass that would shield the card from being scanned when it isn't meant to be.
[I presume they would supply some type of case as the PA does for EZ Pass that would shield the card from being scanned when it isn't meant to be.]
No that wouldn't be necessary. The Smart Card has to be a inch or two from the reader, so they would just tell you not to hang around the Turnstile and keep it on your right side to avoid paying a fare as you leave the bus. At the Turnstile and on the bus they want to know when you leave, so they would have to prevent charging a fare if they want to read the card as you exit. What if you forget or don't want to swipe again ?
Here in NYC I'm sure they'll take a perfectly good system and bastardize it, i.e. people who go in and out of the system ... to Transfer or buy something or what ever ... what if the system misses one exit, then it would get all screwed up waiting for you to exit AM but you don't untli 8 hours later ?
Mr t__:^)
Ed Alfonsin wrote:
"Does the use of a new card in DC mean that they will now have an "expiration" date like the NY and Chicago cards? One of the good things about both DC and San Francisco from the start has been that you can carry those cards for years and they are still usable. It can be a time-saver at places like National Airport in DC not to have to go to a machine, put down luggage, and dig for bills or change to get a card. But if they're "improving" things by stopping that, I can only guess that the loonies at the MTA have exported their stupidity."
"I still think that the whole notion of having pre-paid cards expire is thievery. No one has ever given me a reasonable explanation why the cards should expire, other than for the TA to rip people off to get additional income for services not rendered. Currency and stamps don't expire and the cards are are similar, except that a different amount can be deducted if fares change. And the DC and BART cards let you know how much is on the card--you can look at it at home without having to go all the way to a subway station."
"People have said that an expired card can be mailed to the TA. Would anyone in his or her right mind trust the TA to acknowledge receipt, let alone issue a new card? I think they depend on people being unwilling to spend two or three dollars for certified mail when the card balance is $5 or $6. I wouldn't be surprised if they also charge for postage and handling. When someone lives several hundred miles from the City, it's almost impossible to handle."
No, it isn't. You can trade expired cards for up to year at the Agent's booth or at a MetroCard machine. Mailing cards to the MTA is safe (I don't know why you think First Class Mail is so bad). I had to mail twice in the last 5 years, and once I got one as a refund for a bad transfer by calling, I mailed nothing. Either way, I got my cards within 2 weeks.
"A while back, I heard some discussion about an initial difficulty with the DC card--it was deducting value whether you intended it or not. Apparently if you even walked near a turnstile with the card in your pocket, it got activated and WMATA got your money. If that's still the case, what happens if you go to a subway booth to get maps or information and then want to enter at another station (or get on a bus, when that part of it is put into effect)?"
Well, I assume that the system doesn't work out of pocket and requires you to take it out and hold it close to the reader.
"Those cards are supposed to work like the E-Z Pass, though with E-Z pass, you can at least take it off the windshield if you don't want your account charged--you might need a receipt immediately, for example."
You have to put it in a static bag in order to make sure it's not read. Even if it's in the glove compartment.
"Chicago just stopped using tokens completely--do they still take cash? And what's the status of unused tokens? A cash gift to the CTA or can they be redeemed?"
I don't know what Chicago does, but when NY changes the tokens for fare hikes, they can be replaced with new tokens at the booths for a few months. After that you bring them to TA HQ.
"There are times I think that the Luddites were right."
There are times when I think YOU are wrong.
"And the DC and BART cards let you know how much is on the card--you can look at it at home without having to go all the way to a subway station. "
Most BART fare gates either print the amount of money left in invisible ink, or on top of the old amount, so you still have to put the ticket in a ticket macine to see how much is left on it.
I know what you mean. The new fare gates at the extenstion stations are nice though. It think they use an ink jet to print. I think they are planning to replance most of the fare gates in the future as part of thier upgrade program.
Monday's Daily News (last week 6/7) had an article on page 8 with photos of four proposed NY State Quarters due out 2001.
Did I miss a prev. post on this ? Mr t__:^)
Yes - search back a bit and you'll find it. As you noted, it is just a proposal at the present time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Was on vacation this past week (June 7-11), so I'm just now back on the computer. I had a great time on the Newark City Subway trip; it's too bad those 1940s-vintage cars won't be with us too much longer. It was great to see everyone again and exchange ideas, opinions and observations. Looking forward to the next trip.
On Monday, I went up to Port Jervis and finally got a train all the way after two bus-at-Suffern-aborted attempts. They're redoing the Hoboken waiting room and it's a good thing I got there an hour before the 9:00 via Bergen. There's just a wooden temporary trailer, and there were about thirty people ahead of me, probably owning to the fact that it was the first Monday of the month and everyone was getting their monthlies. The trip was great with lots of rural scenery and good speed until we hit signal trouble and crawled from Campbell Hall to Middletown. Interestingly, there are no crossings after Tuxedo. Usually that only happens on 'main lines' leased or owned by Amtrak. We got to P.J. about twenty minutes late which reduced dwell time two forty-five minutes. I had intended to walk over the bridge to Pennsylvania, but even if I had more time, it was HOT!!! Isn't it always supposed to be colder in Orange County? A radio station based in Middletown reported a noon temperature of 93.
On Thursday, I got a full consist R42 on both outdoor ends of the 'N'. Those cars really get up to decent speed, even where the stops are close together along 31st Street and the Sea Beach. Of course, this is territory normally trod on by the 68s, so anything would seem fast. The 42's performance on the 4th Avenue express run was far superior to the 68As on the 'B'.
Yesterday, the offspring and I attempted to get anywhere in Manhattan not tied up by the parade. Forget it! Even the corner of Columbus & 91st was hopelessly gridlocked. While we waited for an uptown '6' at 59th, an empty '4' came halfway into the station, stopped for about three minutes, backed up a little, sputtered, coughed, belched, then proceeded uptown into the tunnel and stopped again, causing the '6' that followed it to sit in the station with doors open long enough to let on about three thousand drunken paradegoers. When we did move, I then noticed the same wayward '4' on the opposite (downtown) track at 68th. My son kept asking what was going on. I could only say "One of those crazy subway things you just can't figure, my boy."
We got Slants both going from and coming into Ditmars, so it was a very fulfilling day.
Back to work-
Yesterday, I saw a nice polo shirt with a NYC subway print.
The shirt was black and white with the map showing the portion from about 110th St through 145th St in Harlem.
Has anyone else seen something like this?
I saw one with Crown heights and Bed Stuy in the back grond. It was a Notorious B.I.G. shirt. The trains reprsented were the A,C,G,S and 2,3,4,5
I was wondering since there is rush hour service for the M aLONG THE WEST END LINE, why not have it run all the way to essex instead of just to chambers? also the M trains on the Broadway section are composed of R40s I was wondering if this was the same for the other half on the west end or are they still using the R40m and R42?
R40M & R42 cars are running on the Bay Pkwy. to Chambers portion of the M. Because all trains must enter Essex St. middle to turn, having both the M and shuttle share the middle track would not be a wise operational idea.
Is it just me or are there more R-40M's on the Q line (brighton express) lately?
And less on the N.
And the Slants are making more appearances on the "N"?. I saw no Slant on the "N" on June 4th, and no R40M on the "Q" then either. Things may have changed in the last ten days. I was told there was at least one renegade R40M on the "Q" on or before June 4, but I did not see it that day.
Wayne
Yeah it's me again.. Turns out I saw at least 4 renagade R-40-M's on the Q line today. The N Line had no R-40M's... What are you talking about? All I've ever seen on the N was the standard compliments of R-40's (slant end) and R-68's (newer cars), and R-36's (Streamliners). So where have these R-40M's come from? They probaly came from the now shortened "M" lines (Broadway/Myrtle Av local). What do you say?
During the first few weeks following the closing of the Willy B, there were quite a number of R-40M/R-42 trains on the N, with a significant decrease in Slant R-40's. Those R-40M/R-42's did come over from the Eastern Division. Some are, no doubt, being used on the Bay Parkway - Chambers St rush hour M.
Nothing but slants on the N train yesterday, and I saw only 2 R68s, and one R32 that was in the yard.
They must be doing that to annoy the "N" line manager, who happens to dislike the Slant R40. That won't win them any brownie points in my book :o)
Wayne
No doubt they are swapping cars back and forth between the "N" and the "Q". Like I said, much can change in the course of eleven days.
Here are the R42 and R40M "N" I saw on June 4:
4462-3, 4918 (repaired)-9, 4924-5, 4872-3, 4926-7
4934-5, 4896-7, 4938-9 (both repaired), 4948-9, 4886-7
4900-1, 4888-9, 4870-1, 4878-9, 4872-3.
Wayne
"All I've ever seen on the N was the standard compliments of R-40's (slant end) and
R-68's (newer cars), and R-36's (Streamliners)."
I think you meen R-32's (Brightliners) - R-36's are IRT equipment.
subfan
Yeah... keep forgetting what's what. Well, I asked a few operators and conductors and they seem to agree that they added some service to the line and it just turns out that these were old cars that just happened to be "lying around the yard."
The R-32s may be old, which is a relative term in my book, but they still run like new. Of course, I remember them when they were, in fact, new, which means I must be getting old.
They still looked better with blue doors.
Today at Bowling Green there was a TA employee handing out TVM information booklets and telling everyone they would be active tomorrow (6/15)
What are TVMs?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
The ATM type machine is actually called a MVM (MetroCard Vending Machine). Mr t__:^)
I intend to spend my lunch break taking a look and playing around with them...
-Hank
Well, I just got back in. For trying out the machine, I got a free Cloisters card holder.
Anyhow, the machine seems fairly simple to use. All the info gets displayed in large type, and the touch screen limits mistakes. Simply hit the part you need. Incidently, the touchscreen is a seperate unit from the video monitor, so replacement of the damaged componants is easier (and cheaper!)
I got a reciept, which I will scan when I have a chance, that has printed on it the orignal value, serial number, and card type. The 'address' of the machine in R200A 0701, and is MVM 0230. Every marking on the machine is in large type, and also in braille.
-Hank
My Cubic Engineer source admitted that you can in fact impress your friends by buying a MC in a foreign language since once you learn the steps they're the same in all languages.
He was impressed at how quickly we knew the two new stations (Bowlinng Green & Jay St). I told him that they can't do anything anywhere in the World without us SubTalkers knowing about it .... he he he
Mr t__:^)
There was an "N" train pulling out of Union Square that had a "Y" on the back end in the electronic route display.
R-32 cars have all 26 letters on them in addtion to blank and 0 thru 9.
It's not uncommon for some rascal to put X or Y on them :-)
I rode this train on Friday (with the Y on the south end) from 8th St. to Cortlandt St.
I'm curious, when people post about these mismarked trains, it always sounds to me like they are asking "is there really a Y train?" Obviously these are either broken signs, or changed by some miscreant/railfan, or lazy operators forgetting to check/set them.
On Saturday the 5th I was coming back from Yankee Stadium on the Hippo train (I mean the D) and across the platform at 145th was a train of R32 or R38 cars (wasn't really paying attention) that had a couple cars signed as "K" (white in blue circle). Some people wanted to transfer to the local (and that was obviously it) but they said "don't get on that train it's a K train". I couldn't help but to snicker.
-Dave
HOLY COW! Passengers that actually pay attention to the signs!
I know there really isn't a "Y" train :)
What's even dumber is these people will stand in the doorway, holding it open until someone finally tells them there is no K train. Like the train is their personal taxi ...
That K Train was in honor of the Rocket if he ever gets his "stuff" back that is!!
I think the K was either a late night local or rush hour train on 8th Avenue at one time. It also went from 57 St. and 6 Ave. to East New York.
The K was what the AA was re-named when the double letters were eliminated in 1985, as well as the rush hour service via 6th Ave./Willy B. back in the early 70's. The route was discontinued in December 1988 and replaced with expanded C service.
I saw (in 1997) a "Q" train, #3918 to be exact, with an "O" in its front sign. I did a double take, thinking it was dirty glass obscuring the tail of the "Q", but, no, it was an "O".
Wayne
Probably was a put in, the motorman put it up as a joke like "Y won't this train stop here ?" as it ran lite from City Hall Yard to Astoria perhaps, and simply forgot to change the sign to N when it got to the terminal.
Major service increase on the B44 Saturday 33% ammong the changes is limited service increases to a 10 minute headway all day and runs earlier and later. And more late evening service Every 15 minutes till 1230am Sunday North and 130am South.
Today marks the first day of the Chicago Avenue subway station renovation on the CTA's Red Line.
The Station will remain open during the renovation, but the repairs will take until around fall of 2000.
I'm not sure of all the details because the CTA hasn't put up anything about it on their web site, but here is what I heard in a news report:
The station is the 4th busiest in the entire system and the mezzanine (Fare- Payment) level will be widened and doubled in space. Elevators & Escalators will be added to make it fully handicapped accessible, it will be cleaned and grafiti resistant tile will be added like Roosevelt and State, the platforms will be changed to granite
( I think that's the substance they said, I could be wrong), and information kisoks will be added.
The station will remain open during the renovation and State street will be closed for the first few months between Chicago & Superior until September of this year and the project will continue until the fall of next year.
The entire project will cost 23 million dollars.
If you heard anything else or have comments please post them.
BJ
"L" station may be misleading -- the entire Chicago rapid
transit system is often referred to as the "L." but the
Red Line station to be renovated is in the State Street
Subway, not the "real" elevated station about half a mile
west on Chicago Avenue, served by the Brown and Purple
Lines.
Reportedly one block of State Street, between Chicago and Superior Streets, will be closed through about September 1 in connection with the station renovation.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
[Today marks the first day of the Chicago Avenue subway station renovation on the CTA's Red Line.]
I have not heard, nor do I really get a chance to ride the Red Line often. As I work at Adams & Wacker and live in the vicinty of Belmont/Sheffield, I use the Brown/Purple Line elevated trains vs. the Red Line subway trains. I venture onto the Red Line only when I have to. The service, on what used to be CTA's premier line, is mediocre at best today. Crowds and long waits in the rush hours prevail.
The Chicago/State Station is a very heavily used station as it is close to Michigan Avenue shopping and other Chicago landmarks. $23 million is a good deal of money to spend on one station. Isn't the price tag for rebuilding the entire Douglas Park structure only in the high $300 millions? At this price, no wonder the CTA is looking for $5.5 billion over the next five years.
I hope they, the designers and CTA, are successful in making the station more "open". One of the problems with the WPA financed State and Dearborn Street subways are you, or at least I do, feel claustrophobic when in the stations. These stations are crowded and cramped.
It is good news to hear. I’ll have to make it a point to venture over there some Saturday to check things out.
Jim K.
Chicago
Mr. Kramer:
I have just the opposite feeling that you have. I like riding trains and being in stations when they are at their most crowded and fullest.
Many people disagree with me and say that they hate it because of all the people and the ease for pickpockets and purse snachers. I don't really worry about this since I don't carry much money and don't think purse snatching is a problem on the CTA.
I suppost you wait around after a CUBS game if a trip on the L and the Addison street station is necessary.
The only problem I find is with the CTA's Brown Line policy on Sunday's. When there is a Cubs game just getting out and train are packed out of Addison and then all the passengers off a 6-car brown line train also try to squeeze into a Red Line train at Belmont just one station away.
They should either run the Brown Line trains Express the loop in this case or have Red Line trains skip-stop Addison & Belmont after the CUBS games. Just for the one hour period after when half of the park is taking the red line south-bound this can be a real problem.
BJ
I was a Skidmore Owens and Merrill about a year ago and they had mock up's of State Street subway renovations at that time. I have not heard anymore for a while. I will see what I can find out.
Joe
Steve:
I know this isn't suposed to happen. So since I also knew that you and Jeff would promptly tell me I was somehow mistaken, I took steps to be sure of what I was saying.
This past week, I worked with a fine motorman. He makes very smooth stops. By manipulating the master controller handle on the fine notch between coast and minimum brake, he can get around 200 amps of dynamic. Smooth, and easy.
Problem is, there's NO SAP pressure.
I know this shouldn't be. If there's no air at the voltage transducer for dynamic, how is the dynamic active? To test this, I even opened the control breaker while it was braking. Sure enough,the 5 wire de-energized and the dynamic went away. But there was still no SAP pressure. I checked from both my cars in the middle. I looked from the rear(we took a train to layup every night last week) and from the lead car.
I had three trains a day for five days, that's 15 trains. Each and every one performed as such.
WHY?
Only thing I can think of is that the cams in the brake vavle were adjusted to close the switch to the #5 trainline as soon as the controller is moved to min brake. That and the control group was modified to go into brake as soon as the #5 wire gets voltage.
Second question is for what purpose?
I figure so dead cars won't squeal. If the train already has a lot of brake at min service, most train operators wont see a need to increase demand. A dead car will continue to roll free, and quiet. It seems plausible considering the rate curves were changed a while back. The equipment now slows down faster for a less amount of SAP. You dont need a lot of pressure to get a heavy brake. Ask a train operator. Go from coast to min brake and it feels like your'e getting 40 PSI, instead of just a little.
It's not a safety issue, but it would nice to get a good explaination of what has become apparent.
I can't believe it! You actually worked with a fine motorman! LOL
When a subway car is placed in coast, the controller, because of back-spotting, sets up for braking. Since the traction motors are turning, they begin to generate a 'coasting' current. Nominally, this should be between 50 - 75 Amps per leg. Since the dynamic brake micro-switch is on a cam at the top of the master controller, and due to tollerences in the switch actuator, I suppose that the switch can be energized a few deqrees in advance of the notch. Therefore, the 5 wire may, on some master controllers, be energized 'early'. The rest is a pure guess since I do not have the controller schematic in front of me bit I would guess that a glitch in the logic permits the coast current to be interpretted as a dynamic current under these circumstances.
Normally a field shunt is used to cut the braking effort for coasting. Is this the method used in NYC?
Yeah. On the GE SCM equipment, the drum winds up in the same
position after shut-off as if you were starting up, i.e. with
maximum field shunting. Voltage on 5 wire removes the hold signal
and allows the drum to notch back through the dynamic braking
notches, under control of the current limit set up by the SAP
transducer.
that coincides with my original posting #39139 as well as I have been noticing that for years on poorly adjusted ME A=43 brake valve equipped cars as well.
that coincides with my original posting #39139 as well as I have been noticing that for years on poorly adjusted ME43 brake valve equipped cars as well.
The only GE SCM manuals I have handy are for the R-62, as
delivered. They say that as far as the SAP transducer for
the dynamic brake is concerned, 0-10 psi is all the same:
minimum brake.
During coasting, energized 3 wire causes the KM drum to hold
in position 17, with the dynamic brake loop set up but fields
shunted 50%. Braking effort will be minimal and current will
be 50-100 amps or so. There is no spotting "follow-up" unlike
some other forms of dynamic brake control and the KM drum will
stay in notch 17 with full resistance in the brake loop.
When 5 wire is energized, this presents a run signal to the
KM drum. It leaves 17 and works down towards 1 under control
of the rate circuits which are acting according to the straight
air pipe pressure and the load sensor. Fields are un-shunted as
soon as it starts to run down, giving braking effort.
Each of the braking notches 1-16 cuts out a little resistance from
the braking loop to maintain the desired rate current as speed
decreases.
When the KM drum reaches notch 1 AND the current limit relay drops
out, then dynamic braking has reached the end of the line. The
braking loop is opened up and the KM drum runs back up to coast
(notch 17) in preparation for re-application of power.
According to these docs, you certainly would get min brake with
just 3 and 5 energized and 0 SAP.
Harold and I were up at TMNY this sunday. There are only two doorways and one body section left to be sanded and painted. In two weeks we will return on saturday. I hope to complete the work then.
Almost there. Floor and roof, and were done!
Erik and Harry,
Keep it going, will ya! It's amazing what 2 gentlemen can do when they put their hearts to it. I want to see this car. I'll tell you what would be cool. When you folks get done with the electrification, put a trolley pole on top of 6398 and let her fly! Just a thought....
-Constantine
Stef....no wire at Kingston yet! But I know Erik plans to put
up the pole when the time comes....he came by Branford a few
years ago for a consultation with Dr. Ted on how to run the wire.
Erik, if you're reading this, here's a new finding on that issue:
there'll be one pair of bolts kinda close to the pole base plate.
Use non-conductive bolts! :)
Stef, one quick question. When the heave cable comes from the knife switch box to the bulkhead of the car how did you make that sharp turn into the conduit? Did you run the cable into a large loop or cut it and join the ends with ring terminals. The cable we are using is way too stiff and if we looped it would take up 2 to 2 1/2 feet of cable to give 90 degrees. Thanks
It's Jeff, not Stef, actually. I'm pretty sure Ted did not
run the downlead cable directly into the main switch box.
He opened the T lead disconnects on each truck. On one end
the dangling ends were taped up. On the other end, the lead
on the carbody side was connected to the trolley lead and
well insulated with rubber, friction and vinyl tape.
For all the under-car work, he used 3/4" sealtight, not conduit
or EMT. We are also using stranded cable which bends more easily.
Sorry, Harry. Unfortunately, I don't have Jeff's expertise in these matters. I've only been volunteering at BERA for the last few months, so how much could I possibly know? You could say, I'm an observer just soaking all of this in.
I might be able to help out with the historical stuff. Mechanics? Eh, well... Check with my pal Jeff H., who really knows how to make something go!!!
Still, when the electrification project at TMNY is done, I STILL want to see 6398 fly. Fly 6398, fly!!!!
-Constantine
Worry about electrification after fixing the trackwork first!! It's ghastly!!
Hey, R7ofR9, Next time you are in Syracuse, see me, I'll give you a spike maul and some tie tongs, maybe a track wrench, then you'll be equipped to do something about that "ghastly" track. Until then...
R7 of R9, let me say this: I haven't been to Kingston yet, although I might consider it sometime in the future to see how the other Trolley Museums outside of Branford operate. At this point, I won't really comment on the condition of the track because I haven't seen it. BUT, I will say that what you want and what you can have are two different things.
I've learned quite a bit since I started coming to Branford. In the last week or so, I've had to realize some things, perhaps doing some "growing up". As a young railfan and train buff at the tender age of 23, I got to say I'm ambitious. It is my desire to see numerous things done at Museums like Branford. However, that cannot always be the case! You have to make due with the resources that are available. Train parts, track materials, and various other things that make a Railway Museum tick all go together like a jigsaw puzzle. Those materials aren't always available, so it may be possible to come up with substitutes. Even then, the substitutes aren't always available. As a result, it becomes harder to maintain a particular aspect of the Railway Museum. You need $$$ for the materials, which the funds aren't always sufficient. What about manpower? There isn't enough manpower to go around, I'm afraid. Give guys like Harry and Erik a helping hand and contribute to making things better. If you can contribute, as a result you will get an everlasting satisfaction.
In a previous message about a subway car that I was working on, I expressed frustration over the fact that there weren't enough people to go around, making my job a lot more difficult. Then I got into a discussion with a respected friend who made me open my eyes and realize that you have to be grateful for what's out there. In no means have I given up on life or my hobby (the night I wrote the message, I was really stressed because of personal matters).
So the question I pose to you is this: Is something difficult really a bad thing? Absolutely not!!!! If anything, I would have to say the difficulty becomes an interesting challenge. Guys like Harry and Erik didn't give up on a car project because they are the only ones doing it. Instead, they became even more determined to finish with their beloved project. I'll take a cue from them and from my respected friend to work even HARDER to get something done and make a difference in this world of railway preservation.
Again, if you think the track is ghastly, why don't you go up and help the gang to make things right?
-Constantine
R7ofR9, I love that nickname. I can just imagine you saying:
"We are MTA. You will be delayed. Complaining is futile"
Thank's guys;
Mr R7ofR9, it's easy to talk the talk. So I'll give you the opportunity to walk the walk. TMNY has some track problems, so come up with Harold and I. We'll even give you the ride up. Then you can install some of those new gauge rods lying in the barn waiting to be put in. We will supply you all the tools and even liquid refreshment. Well? Going to provide excuses or results?
Good one, Eric!
Erik: I wonder if any thought has been given to using your R-16 in service as a backup to the gas electric. I realize that it would have to be hauled by your diesel. I have made several trips to TMNY over the years and more then once have found that despite the best efforts of the staff the gas motor was not running. Since many travel great distances especially with kids they tend to look forward to a "train ride." I realize that a subway car hauled by a loco in the Catskills might be somewhat incongruous but it would be better then no train at all.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I made the same suggestions to Mike Hanna. He's the only one who can operate that diesel. Since he's not around as often as we'd like, it aint happening.
120 runs fairly well. Harold and I give it a fair amount of work and it doesn't break down often. It does overheat occasionaly.
Most often the reason it doesn't run is because there's no one there to operate it.
Let me know next time your'e going up and I'll make sure it's all there.
Why not pull a car loaded with forklift batteries or a generator other museums have done this in the past to provide power when they had no trolley wire or (as in this case), third rail.
Up at TMNY, in Kingston NY we have a BMT Q car. It's only
one car of the three car unit. It's in pretty bad shape.
The good and bad of it, is that the car is constructed of
wood. Bad because it rotted out in the rain. Which is why
after we finish 6398, we're turning our attention to it.
Good because wood is easy to work with and cheap.
Now the ends of this car are steel. Rust has eaten away
much of the lower reaches. Also because it was one of
three (you younger folks: think R-44/46) it has controls
only on one end.
On the drive home last night, Harold and I discussed the
posibilities for this car. We both favor reverse
engineering the car, ala the NYCTM BU cars. It would make
restoration easier. I like it, because it would be a much
older lookng car for the collection. Harry says the steel
is too hard to deal with.
What about color? Or interior appointments? Unerneath it's
all there. Mike Hanna has spare controllers and brake
valves. He want's to make the car double eneded. Decidedly
un-prototypical. But needed to run both ways on the
museum's line. The switch boxes and fans and lights are
all either gone or no longer servicable. I'd replace it
all with modern (safe) wiring and fixtures. There are
museum people who would fight meonthat one. Originality is
holy to them. The doors and their engines are frozen in
place. Another argument in favor of "BU izing."
The way I see it, is you have a car, run it. Or display
it. But don't make the restoration unnecesarily dificult
or expensive just to make it original. I'd rather see it
run with circuit breakers (hidden) than sitting collecting
dust with fuses.
The roof is amazingly intact too. We have marker lights and whistles. Probably going to have to substitute a brake gauge from an R-1/9. Any body know where I can locate one?
Q car one that is.
Seats are all rotted out, but we can make those up. Windows will all have to be re made. From scratch. Having just built a piece of furniture sat. I'm psyched up to get cracking on that Q!
Any one care to join?
Go for it. There would be some discrepancies between what the this converted BU would look like and what it was back at the beginning. The roof is a perfect example. Q's have lowered roofs, unlike the BU's. I'm sure you wouldn't modify the roof. What about marker light placement? The present arrangement is for the Qs during their run on the 3rd Av El. How do you deal with that?
Assuming that not too much of the wood is lost, you should be able to replace the rotted out parts with no problem. You may as well take out the steel since it has rusted away.
Nevertheless, this is a worthwhile project, provided that you can get all the parts needed. Just make sure when you're done working on the car, you shelter from the elements if at all possible.
Cheers to a Successful Restoration!
Constantine
Barn space is probably going to be a fair sized war. There are two cars inside now. A Brooklyn Peter Witt, and an Atlantic City car that are way beyond restoration. I know that asking that they be at least moved, or preferably scrapped, is going to start a problem.
But there's no way I'm going to restore a wooden car outdoors!
Well, you certainly could do this and create some
sort of rail car that might have existed in some
alternate universe.
In my opinion, the decision to "de-Q" the 3-car set which
is in the NYTM's collection was unfortunate from a museum
standpoint. It would have been better to preserve the set
for what is was: a 3-car set of late-model Qs. As such they
had significance in being the last wood-body rail cars operated
in regular passenger service in the US. They should have left
the set alone and picked one of the singleton Q's for
making into a BU.
Oh well, what's done is done. To do the job right with
1602A would be very expensive. First, what trucks does that
car currently have and what traction motors?
Wood may seem cheaper and easier than steel, but you'd be surprised
how much good wood costs and how hard it is to do a craftsmanlike
job with it. If you want to illustrate a BU car, it should reflect
the level of quality and hand-craft that was typical of that period.
There is a lot of difficult woodwork ahead. You're going to
have to fabricate side sheathing, window sash and a bunch of trim
after you pull out the side doors.
OK, you've read up on all the Time-Life woodworking books and
you've gotten those things done. Then you get to fabricate a
COMPLETE clerestory roof from SCRATCH. Oh, let's not forget
a pair of end platforms. There's the small matter of a 10"
crown beam at the end of the car which is certainly rotted away
by now (a design flaw of BU cars that has plagued Branford's
collection). Do you have the platform gates?
I would recommend leaving 1602A as a Q. Whatever happened to
those 3 cars that were in Coney Island? Did they get scrapped?
If you're worried about running the car, putting a controller on
the back end isn't such a heresy. Of course, with a little creativity
you could M-U that car with one of your Lo-Vs or R1-9s.
Do you know that there is three BMT Q at South Brooklyn Yard???
Oh, they are still there. OK. I was wondering what the story
was with that bunch. They are on the scrap list.
I don't know why they there and maybe MTA didn't want to scrap the BMT Q. But i have a picture of BMT Q and i took it last month
Thanks Jeff;
The car still has the propulsion gear it was retired with, and those Headley (IRT) trucks. The motors haven't been meggered, so I don't know if they're workable. If not we're in for some major trouble.
I really didn't want to get into re-raising the roof to it's original clerestory height. My idea for reverse engineering the car was really to save trouble. I see you think then that leaving the car as is is a better idea.
Platform gates could be fabricated easily. Our next door neighbor in Kingston is an iron works. I'd draw up plans from the BU cars in the NYCTM. I'm not sure getting those big single panel doors to work is easier than fabricating wood sides.
I don't know what a crown beam is. Tell me exactly where to find it so I can check. Mike rolled out some tar paper on the car's roof. It's done a fair job of keeping it dry. When I looked last week It seemed pretty goood.
I like the idea of MU-ing cars. Mike is getting our Lo-V into shape, so it could work.
The Q set from Coney Island is in miserable shape. Harold and I checked it out a few years ago. The brakes function, but they were converted to work cars and have no MU equipment on them. Scrap is really all that's left for them.
Just in case you are curious some of the rest of us are reading with interest the comments from Jeff, Mike, Stef & yourself. Thanks for sharing on-line.
Mr t__:^)
Well, the relative ease or difficulty in these restoration
tasks depends on the level of quality you desire, and which
words in the phrase "The Trolley Museum of New York" you
value. You can certainly build an end platform out of 2x4
planks and the sides with texture 111 ribbed plywood sheets
from Home Depot. In the process, you remove original artifact
content and replace it with work of poor authenticity.
That might seem a trivial concern, but remember your museum
holds that car in its collection, in a sense, in the public's
trust, much as say the Museum of Natural History is entrusted
with preserving and interpreting its fossils. If you destroy
the artifact, or more importantly the information that the
artifact contains, future generations will never be able to recover
it. That's why I consider it one level of minor heresy to add
something unauthentic to a car, e.g. putting the wrong trucks
under a car body to make it run, or adding a backup controller
where there was nothing. But making major modifications to the
car is a much more serious offense unless they are performed
properly. Who is the curator at TMNY?
The car has value as a Q car. It's too bad there isn't another
viable Q available to make a QX set out of it. Do you know
the fate of the 3 Q cars that were in the scrap line? I had
heard a claim by a young man who said he purchased them for $1
a piece. He also said that all of the control and brake equipment
had been removed. It would be a shame if those parts were not
saved...I hope at least Mike got some of that.
The crown beam is a huge arc-shaped piece of wood which forms the end
of the car. The coupler is hung from it and the posts forming the
support for the roof section over the vestibules would also be
attached. When the Qs were converted from 1200s and 1400s
the original beams were replaced. In order to back-date the car
you'd have to make up new beams with the correct dimensions.
< Well, the relative ease or difficulty in these restoration
tasks depends on the level of quality you desire, and which
words in the phrase "The Trolley Museum of New York" you
value. You can certainly build an end platform out of 2x4
planks and the sides with texture 111 ribbed plywood sheets
from Home Depot. In the process, you remove original artifact
content and replace it with work of poor authenticity.
That might seem a trivial concern, but remember your museum
holds that car in its collection, in a sense, in the public's
trust, much as say the Museum of Natural History is entrusted
with preserving and interpreting its fossils. If you destroy
the artifact, or more importantly the information that the
artifact contains, future generations will never be able to recover
it. That's why I consider it one level of minor heresy to add
something unauthentic to a car, e.g. putting the wrong trucks
under a car body to make it run, or adding a backup controller
where there was nothing. But making major modifications to the
car is a much more serious offense unless they are performed
properly. Who is the curator at TMNY? >
You can make a separate argument for saving a "Q" as a "Q.". But what exactly is "authentic." Wooden cars, like wooden buildings, were always having parts upgraded and replaced--especially the wood. I doubt very much of the original surface wood exists from c1907. I recall Q-types in service where some of the outside wood was a different color because it had been recently replaced. Even steel cars like the BMT Standards had canvas roofs which lasted only so long before new canvas was installed.
Is any replacement made after BMT ownership inauthentic? Is any replacement after TA ownership inauthentic? Is the TA's rebuilding of "Q's" to close to their original appearance inauthentic? If the TMNY "Q" is rebuilt to original BU appearance using original plans and the best match of original materials, I might call that restoration.
As to the point of the controls at both ends ... if the Q is resbuilt or restored to BU appearance, controls at both ends are quite authentic. I believe all motorized BUs had control at both ends originally.
The issue of authenticity in restoration of delicate artifacts
is a tough one.
Generally, the accepted principle is that you are going to restore
the car to time X, where X was some point in the service lifetime
of the car. In order to do that, the entire car has to reflect
what it was at time X. It's generally accepted within the
ARM world that to make a car with a 1910 exterior paint scheme,
1930s trucks and 1950s seating is to create something unauthentic.
Of course, there are "outs". You can document your unauthentic
choices so that the knowledge of what was supposed to be there
is not lost. You can put up a big sign that says: Although
this car is representative of a BU 1400 series car as it existed
in the late 1920s, it is mounted on trucks which the car carried
much later in life, due to unavailability of the original parts,
etc." We have an R-9 at Shore Line in which we will probably
keep the 1960s blue interior but leave one panel in green with
the City of New York lettering and an explanatory sign.
The worst thing anyone can do is make a change and not document it.
Unfortunately, documentation tends to get separated from the artifact.
Sometimes restoration work means reverse-engineering previous
restoration attempts. You can do some rough guesswork sometimes.
If I see type THHN wire in a switch group, I know that wasn't
original to the car:)
So, one should make an effort to carefully document the changes being
made and the historical justification behind them. If possible,
preserve the materials that were removed. Too often, some little
bracket or something is rotted and it gets replaced with an angle
brace from Home Depot and thrown out. Then 40 years later there's
simply no way of knowing what that part was supposed to look like.
Once information is destroyed, it's gone forever.
Any work that is done on the car should be done with the best
match of materials AND craft. The latter is very tough and
may even be considered an extremist position. A Sears circular
saw leaves very different tooling marks on the wood than a
hand saw.
When does a restoration become a replica? That's a tough
philosophical question. Railway vehicles are living artifacts.
When we interpret them by operating them, we consume them to
some small degree. You have to expect that certain components
are "consumables". For example, can we match the original
lubricants used with the car?! Certainly when the vehicles are
acquired after years of service, they are a hodge-podge of
modifications and kluges made by their owners.
In a way, the argument can be made that leaving a car exactly as
it came out of service is the only truly authentic means of
preserving it. When you back-date the car, you have to un-do
modifications that are part of the history of the car. You
effectively throw away that history.
A funny situation is presented by the NYCTA's handling of its
own museum fleet. Was the quasi-rollback of the museums BUs
authentic? Well, it was a modification performed by the (successor
to) the car's original owners. Same thing with the incorrect
maroon paint scheme of the "diamond jubilee" Lo-Vs.
These are all issues that are supposed to be hashed out in the
ARM recommended practices committees. It's a tough area.
The best advice to any museum is to document everything
carefully. Put yourself in the position of being another
volunteer 40 years from now trying to figure out what you did,
and ask yourself what means this person would have to do so.
Well put, Jeff. A lot of the decisions must be based on the intent of the restoration/rehabilitation. I'll cite an example from the automotive world here, but the concept is the same. Back when I was younger my father obtained a 1929 Ford Model 'A' that had been in the family since the early years of the Depression. During WWII it was modified by his Uncle Ray into a farm truck, initially to haul vegetables to market and later to haul manure. When Dad got it, after Uncle Ray's death, it was in deplorable condition. One of the doors had holes in it from where the spare tire had been bolted on, the original shift knob had given way to a wooden spool (from Aunt Ethel's sewing box, no doubt), it was on solid steel wheels from the late '40s, etc. Dad's intent was to create a "running restoration" of the car, not a showpiece. He rebuilt the original engine, modifying it internally with two extra water passages in the block (similar to those that Ford added in 1930) and an oil filter (Ford didn't start using them until the mid-'30s), he obtained the parts for a rumble seat (the car originally had a trunk, essentially all of which was removed during its conversion to a truck), installed a key in the ignition (an option which this particular car did not originally have), added a second taillight (another dealer-installed option not originally on this car), and (a couple of years later) replaced the mechanical brake linkage with a hydraulic system. He also installed seat belts. I learned to drive on this car, double-clutching and all (and was I ever glad when he changed the brakes!). It gave him the pleasure of driving a "fun" car that looked, at a glance, authentic, but which was also now practical to drive, since it was significantly safer and more reliable than originally. Had the intent been to restore the car to 100% authentic appearance, he could have done so, but only about 60% of the parts would have been original, and less than half the remainder would have been authentic Ford parts - the rest would have been reproduction. It would also have been a static display, not a running vehicle used for fair-weather commuting, weekend jaunts into the country, and the occasional parade, and wouldn't have been nearly as much fun - plus it wouldn't have given Dad nearly the opportunities that he had to discuss it with curious young children whose parents were even too young to really remember one (it always gathered a crowd when he drove it to the hardware store or the barber shop).
I miss that old car - Mother made Dad sell it almost 25 years ago when he was having some health problems. Wonder where it is now?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know museums must work valiantly with what they have, and that there is no excuse for fudging history if you can reasonably avoid it, but to me venue is also an important issue in trying to convey to the museum-goer the quality of a museum object.
To put it another way, I have less problem with the Transit Authority restoring a Q to BU appearance on inauthentic trucks, an inauthentic roofline and a control system battery from Manny, Mo and Jack, when that restored train can still operate on the Broadway-Brooklyn Line than I have with an R17 authentic to the last screw running through the Connecticut woods with a trolley pole.
How about BU's sitting in an IND subway station? When was the
last time those cars ran with passengers? Anyway, the
place to run a BU fantrip would be the corona/astoria lines,
a la dual service. I wonder if those low-roof BUs could clear
all the tunnels from Court St to the 60th st tubes?
You settle for what you can get, Paul. The various features of the BUs aren't accurate in every way, but it's better than nothing at all. Restoring a car to an original appearance 100% is in my opinion, would be almost impossible when you have to consider that the materials or parts may not necessarily be available. Certainly, an original BU would never clear the tunnels of the IND.
How much more can you do?
When comparing to the R17, it isn't as difficult to maintain, because there are parts for it still out there (most parts at least). Keep in mind that similar cars are still running. The only catch is that a trolley pole has to be fitted to make it run. That's fine. She runs and that's all that matters. At least folks get an idea of what the car is like in operation rather than being a static display.
The emphasis here is to make the cars (or anything else for that matter) closely resemble a piece of the past.
-Constantine
Thank you all. This is exactly what I had been hoping for, a free and open exchange of ideas and opinions for the subject.
TMNY has no curator, per se, but a president and various department heads. Much like a railroad would. Since it's really just Harold and myself doing the work, and funding it out of our own pockets. I don't want to take this too far. I have to balance the questions of authenticity against those of feasibility and operational practicality.
These questions didn't exist with 6389. As we purchased the car was basically how it ran for most of it's life. Headlights and a radio are so trivial to the cars appearance so as to mean very little. The door mods are quite different, but as I have said before, it was something that they had for the final 15 years of their service life. They also are easier to service, and replacing them was just too difficult to warrant the change. Besides, it was something unique to R-16's.
Q cars as retired did not have controls on both ends. So to operate a single car with a degree of safety and for ease of control, we plan on installing a second set of controls. Mike Hanna has saved an extra brake valve and controller. He also has an extra set of door controls and and marker/tail lights. This would make the car decidedly un-authentic. But that's the only way to run it. Should we spend all that time and money making a static diplay? Or should we sacrifice some historical accuracy to give future generations an opportunity to ride the fine old equipment?
De-conversion to BU is probably out of the question at this point because of finding the right way to go about it. But I also firmly believe in operating over authenticity. By going out of your way to find a bolt or a component that no one will see, or if they do, not know the difference, aren't you just making the work more difficult?
The NYCTM BU cars have Toshiba battery chargers, feeding their 24 volt cotrol system. Does that comprimise their authenticity? Yes. Does it really matter? No. Who else save Mike and a few others know? Mike couldn't find the authentic equipment, so he did the best he could.
I think that as long as the workmanship is good, and the car appears authentic, it will suffice. It's either that, or a job that takes so long and costs so much as to negate the cars value to the museums collection.
Erik, I certainly hope this doesn't sound critical of Kingston,
because it is not meant to be, and of course I understand that
your views are not necessarily the views of TMNY, etc., but
TMNY has no curator, per se, but a president
and various department heads. Much like a railroad would
is an example of immature thinking from a railway museum perspective.
That's not personal immaturity, it simply means that railway
museums go through phases, and that sort of reasoning is typical
of the phase where the museum views itself as some sort of
make-believe railroad.
I'm sure my colleagues at other operating railway museums such as
BSM and Seashore will know where I'm coming from. We've all been
through this phase at some point in the museum's history.
Remember, real railroads are in the business of making a profit
by hauling pax and freight. They don't give a rat's ass about
"museum cars" because, after all, those cars were junked because
they were worn out, difficult to maintain and obsolete.
There are tourist railroads which can make some money because the
ride itself is very interesting. Maybe they use historic cars,
maybe not.
Railway museums, though, eventually realize that they have to take
the word "museum" seriously. They must offer more than just
"a ride" to survive and grow. Moreover, to maintain 501(c)(3)
status, keep up good relations with the community, and attract
public and private grant money, they must be a museum which
provides an educational experience for the public and which
upholds its curatorial responsibilities.
As far as the operate/authentic issue, that's a murky one.
Yeah, I've used off-the-shelf TW/THHN wire to repair the
Lo-V rather than the much more difficult to acquire (and use)
rubber/cloth. We've substituted modern resistors for
impossible to replace defectives in the control system.
We even have a pair of Sears Marine Duty batteries in one of
the BU cars! I feel particularly dirty with that last one, because
in a sense it destroys some of the heritage of the car, namely
the routine maintenance of Edison storage batteries.
Speaking of which, a 24 V charger on the B-Q?s That's a 12-14
volt system. What happened to the original battery charging
relay and resistor in the compressor circuit? Certainly the
set must have had them when they were retired in 1969.
I don't think there's anything really sinful about putting another
controller/brake stand on the Q to make it operable. On the
other hand, why do you need marker lights or tail lights on that
end? Planning on running in the dark a lot? We just use portable
battery-powered lanterns for those types of moves.
Changes such as removing the side doors should simply not be attempted
unless you have the curatorial musclepower to back it up.
Ask someone from Seashore about the Gibbs car disaster!
Gibbs car; that's where they tried to remove the center door?
Marker and tail lights would only be to "round out" the look of the car.
I'm not offended. I don't run TMNY. As a matter of fact I have very little influence up there. 6398 is all I have. It's really Mike's show. From my point of view, there's a lot of junk up there. It detracts from the apparance of the museum. But I don't have any say in that.
The Q is my next project. So now well in advance, I'm trying to get all the planning together. Balancing practicality and feasibility against historical accuracy and asthetics.
I'm sure this will never fly with the board at Kingston,
but you should try to nab another Q body, maybe one of
the 3 that are in the scrap line at 2 Ave? This way you
could pull off a QX. At least it tries to illustrate
the Qs as a trainset. There was, after all, no such
thing as a single Q.
Erik, don't do it. I say do one of two things:
Treat 1602A like a single ended PCC Car. Run forward and backward on one controller. 1001 does it, and I have no doubt that AB Standard 2775 would do the same. Have a flagman stationed at the back of the car to help you safely run in reverse. Plus, I don't know if you want to cut a window out of the back end of the Q since there were no motorman's windows there.
OR:
Try the MU option. I'm sure with some modification, the car can run with the Lo-V or R9 (Jeff would know if this is plausible). You can even do a Branford Practice and have the cars connected mechanically, but one car pulls the other dead in each direction. Whatever the case maybe, please don't alter the appearance of 1602A, as there are other solutions for making the car available to the riding public.
-Constantine
I'd be tempted to agree. If only to save the extra work.
The problem is that the only two restoration people are me and Harry. So after the Q is done, we'd rather not have it sit for two years while it awaits the Lo-V to be completed. For that reason I must go with the double ending of the car. Unless it gets hauled by SBK #9 as a coach, with control car status.
What a great idea!!!!!
Channel 11 reports a man rode for at least 5 hours dead on the #1 today. Through the morning rush.
I guess he was tired of waiting for the express.
Reminds me of the poor guy who apparently died straphanging aboard "F" train car #4248 back in 1973. When the crowd parted to get off at 71st-Continental Avenue - Plop! down he went. I thought maybe he had
simply fainted - a non-A/C R40 in the middle of summer could be a
very uncomfortable place. Someone ran for help and they secured the train. They removed him to the platform and tried to revive him, to no avail.
Wayne
Hey, Erik, did the TA go through the guys' pockets to get his MetroCard and deduct 5 hours worth of riding time on the #1 (I'd guess 10 or 11 rides worth?)
Doug aka BMTman
A few weeks ago at WTC, there was a similar incident on an E.
I guess with the subway service being much better overall these days, people are just DYING to ride the NYCT!!
Sorry for the much too easy pun there. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
So THATS what they mean by 'deadmans control'.............(sometimes I cant resist.....)
It EVEN made the local Baltimore radio news this AM. Our oldies station (which is CBS owned, but not an affiliate) ran the item (with assorted wisecracks) on the 7:00, 7:30 and 8:30 newscasts.
As to the 5 hours, it does make you wonder if the crew bothered to walk through the cars at the terminals.
Let's get real! Firstly, when a crew gets on a #1 train at the terminal, they are on that same train (and because of the South Ferry loop), they never get out of their cabs for about 2 hours. Don't you think they want off after 2 hours! Maybe the previous crews were finishing their workday. We get paid till the time the train arrives at the terminal. The only time we are required to wake up passengers is when the train is taken out of service. Please don't make the crews responsible for police matters. Don't you think they may have to use the rest room facilities after all that time being in motion? With all the subway sleepers, they would use up half their break time just waking up people. And for what purpose? Half of them were partying all nite and have to sleep it off! All this hoopla just sells newspapers. Because of its size, NYCT is a city within a larger city. Yes, on rare occasions someone may be found DOA. With all the people served, this will happen at times!
I just wanted to let you know that I agree with your comments. I wanted to add something to it. I think that this shows what a fast paced life most of us are leading. It is sad to know that someone could die in front of lots of people and that his death could go un-noticed for hours on end without someone realizing what had happened.. I hope that riding the subway was one of the joys in this persons life. I would like to think that he died doing something that made him happy.
"I think that this shows what a fast paced life most of us are leading. It is sad to know that someone could die in front of lots of people and that his death could go un-noticed for hours on end without someone realizing what had happened."
I disagree. You are reading much too much into this incident, and, like many people, seeing in it what you want to see, that is, what supports your existing beliefs (that life is too "fast paced" and thus people don't look out for their fellow man). With the exception of the train crew, all other people on the train saw the body only during their trip, several stops at most. Since a lot of people sleep on trains -- I'm not talking about homeless people but passengers catching a nap -- it's not a sign of callousness or "a fast-paced life" not to disturb a person on the train who is apparently sleeping unless they give some sign that they are other than sleeping (convulsions, crying out, etc.). Indeed, most people would consider disturbing sleeping passengers to be rude.
Well its been an Interesting week working the No.1 Line. Tuesday I was informed of what I missed on my day off. The Daily News front page was the joke of day. Also as the finishing cleaners push out thats when they removed the body from the train in front of 240 Barn. I heard the worker in the barn left. Also the by the end of the day the Dupty SUPT order all cleaners to wake up anyone who is sleeping on the arriving trains. Also the superviser asked the car Cleaners how come they did'n notice him. I have one good answer. Most train are in and out during the Morning Rush Hour. Now Wednesday there were six Police Officers checking for people who were asleep or dead. Now Bill you are right about that suff it is a 2 Hour trip. Also like on my run you go in and out. Yesterday I was on the road 4 Hours. As soon as I arrived I went back out with only Six Minute between trips.
WCBS Newsradio is reporting tonight that the man has been identified. (The skywave is working well tonight... I heard it driving home from MIT about 8:15pm!)
Thats good to hear. I just feel sorry for the family
I'm in Norfolk, VA and get WCBS Newsradio-88 crystal clear during the night myself and also get WFAN in pretty good at times
The fact that the Deputy Supt. wants the cleaners to wake sleeping people up and that cops were on the platform doing the same just proves something I've felt all along: when an unusal incident happens, the TA reacts instead of acts. By this time next week, all this will be forgotten, everything will return to normal, and the TA will get ready for their next "Tabloid Crisis Reaction."
Today I rode Metro North's Waterbury branch for the first time in a couple of years. Let's just say it was *not* a pleasant experience. It was the second run of the day, leaving Waterbury at 9:27 am, connecting to a Grand Central-bound train at Bridgeport. Although only one of the two cars (Bombardier single-level coaches) was open, it was fairly crowded by the time we got to Bridgeport, I'd estimate about 60 to 75 people.
Now the bad news. The car (#6215, "The Birmingham") was filthy beyond imagination. Almost every seat back was defaced by graffiti, the windows were so filthy as to be nearly opaque, and as for the smell eminating from the restroom, just thinking about it makes me want to gag. Finally, while I'm not trying to sound like a snob or anything, it seemed to me that most of the other riders were persons from the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum.
Sounds just like the 1955 MP-75 "Roach Coaches" that still run up and down the LIRR diesel lines. Last time I rode one, there was a hideous stench emanating from one end of the car, no doubt from the lavatory.
It was awful.
On June 4, I had the misfortune of getting aboard the 8:30pm train from Penn Station to Long Beach. This MU, #9909, had half of its lights out, NO A/C, it was packed to the rafters, and it STUNK of food, beer, B.O. and heaven knows what else. It was bad enought to gag a goat. I was jammed in by a doorway and couldn't get to another car, there were people two deep in the aisles. Then I got on the Bi-Level, which carried an aroma of its own - that of brand-new seating materials, which gave off a pungent, acrid scent, somewhat irritating to the sinuses.
Wayne
The LIRR's old diesel coaches may be ready for the scrap yard*, but at least their seats aren't covered with graffiti. I found the defacement of the seats on the Waterbury train to be truly offensive. To me, it indicates that: 1) a large number of dirt balls ride that train, and 2) Metro North doesn't care about maintaining their equipment. 1) doesn't surprise me, I lived in Waterbury all my life until two years ago and it sure won't be mistaken for Beverly Hills. But 2) is another story. I always thought Metro North was a much more competent operation than the LIRR (admittedly, that's not saying much). It was rather dismaying to see how poorly the trains are maintained. Yes, the Waterbury branch is sort of Metro North's unloved stepchild, but that doesn't mean the trains should be "decorated" like prison cells.
* = hard to believe, but I heard that some outfit actually has agreed to buy many of the old LIRR coaches and restore them.
I must say it is always a shock to get on board some of the trains in the NYC area. A German acquiantance travelled extensively in the former East Germany right after unification and _never_ found anything nearly as appalling as those LIRR diesels. I'm lucky, I only ever rode in them to the beach in summer; the commuters really get my sympathy.
The bilevels are a comparative joy and wonder. I agree they've got a bit of a new-car smell, but have you used the toilets yet? Clean, self-flushing, automatic-everything...what a difference! I just hope people have a better attitude about them.
One thought: maybe it's time to ban drinking on _all_ train lines around New York. People just can't be trusted to be responsible, and I'll bet drunkenness contributes to a lot of the disrespect for the trains.
It's such a contrast to DC, where I grew up and my family still lives. The Metro is one of the most boring rides imaginable, but even 20+ years after opening people treat the cars well. There'd always been a suspicion that it wouldn't last once Metro served neighborhoods filled with, well, "not our kind, dears," but that was just racism and snobbery -- I've found all lines equally clean.
I just heard the news on TV that some guy had died on the subway of natural causes (what's natural about dropping dead on a subway car?) and had not been discovered for something like 5 hours.
This raises a couple of questions (1) obviously whatever train he was riding on had to have had three or more terminal stopovers where the car cleaning crew (let alone the conductor) should have noticed that this guy was not breathing (I wouldn't blame them for getting too close if he looked homeless or recked from alchol). And wouldn't you have thought that some alert passenger aboard the train might have noticed something amiss with this man? (2) If he was a MetroCard user who gets possession of any money that remains on his card? (Inquiring minds what to know).
Perhaps a heart attack was brought on after he got a glimspe of Jennifer Lopez in that outfit at the Puerto Rican Day Parade? (if that were the case, at least he would have died with a smile on his face ;-)
Maybe the crew didn't chech because they thought he was just sleeping. The train cleaner said to him/herself "DAMN, let the cops remove his body. I'm too tired!".
2)"And wouldn't you have thought that some alert passenger aboard
the train might have noticed something amiss with this man?"
New Yorkers don't mind anyone but themselves.
3)His possesions would go to his family but not before the MTA takes
the balance off.
4)Jennifer Lopez? He died a happy man!!
Does anyone know when the new IRT cars are comming in? I keep hearing about them but nothing so far. I had heard they were comming this summer.
I'd also like to discuss the new transfer points on the Franklin Shuttle. I don't see the point in this. With the new tech turnstiles, it is a waste of money. You could put two backwards turnstiles at each station. A person wishing to transfer could swipe his card, and it would encode the transfer. Waste of money, if you ask me. Of course, you didn't.
An earlier thread noted the current projected date for delivery of the first of the new trains is sometime in November, followed by at least six months of testing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've noticed over the last few months that there have been a lot of repeat questions, especially about the R142's. I wonder, Dave, if you or anybody else has time, perhaps a FAQ page should be put up, so newcomers or people who haven't been to subtalk in awhile can check that page first before posting. Anyone else agree with the idea? I understand if you can't do it Dave, if you don't have the time or the space...you've put so much into this sight, I wouldn't want to impose. :) -Nick
There is a FAQ page. I do my best to make it obvious to find and yet people don't even notice it. It's clearly listed on the top of the SubTalk page. You can find it Here. Updates welcome.
We need a FAQ for the FAQ!!
(Would that be FAQ Squared?)
It takes a long lead time to build custom design subway rolling stock for any city. Unlike mass produced cars, trucks, buses, planes, etc, subway rolling stock includes investment in tooling, which may be written off at a lost if the builder doesn't get another contract for the same design. SLC seems to alway get a NYC contract during the 60's because the tooling is in place.
Phil Hom
ERA3620
In The June 1999 Issue Of On Page 25 Under The Headline
CAR DEFECTS ALLEGED.
The first 3 cars of a total of 680 were delivered to MTA from BOMBardier. The cars have a number of defects: falty wiring, tucks Were the wrong size, and also the remander of the cars ordered assembly is delayed due to . A statment from the car manufacturer . A MTA spokperson Said These Items Printed In The June 1999 Issue Of Rail News from
The New York Post & MTA Reports.
This E-Auther Is Crying :(.... Good By Interboro Rapid Transit Redbirds.
[ Transfer points on Franklin Shuttle ]
True enough--however, I think there's a point of customer psychology and convenience.
People are more likely to think of using a transfer if its physical. Also it's a pain to climn stairs instead of using a corridor.
More accurately, it's a pain to have to leave the system to make a transfer. Those corridors can include stairs.
It makes things a lot easier from a control standpoint. You don't have the possibility of fraud by someone leaving the system and pasing the transfer to another party. Don't forget, you can't make the transfer from train to train a MetroCard-only phenomenon, as it becomes discriminatory. That means paper transfers, and that means controling them. You'll need to have someone handing them out, and someone to take them. Don't foget what will happen to them after they are used- they get dumped on the floor, just like an empty MC. No need for that. A within-the-system transfer is also a good thing from the customer's standpoint. No need to go out in the rain, walk two blocks, and board the train again, this time soaking wet.
-Hank
Got back home a few minutes past midnight from a day that involved two trips into the City. The first trip in was just for the heck of it, killing time while my younger daughter took the LSAT in Newark. Noteworthy sights: 5044 with a black floor on the B, also no or seriously underperforming a/c; a Diamond 6 EXPRESS on 1805, on the 6 route from Union Square to Bleeker Street; rode the shuttle from Delancey/Essex to Broad and back to Canal - also walked through the reopened exit by the former trolley terminal - lots of work going on in the former terminal area as well, cleaning out the junk etc.; 6125 on the R with no or seriously underperforming a/c; 4689 on the L with a broken and taped side window. Also, I attempted to get a system map at the D/F station on WTC; there was a plainly-visible pile of maps there but the agent, badge 89206, insisted he didn't have any and covered them up when I pointed them out to him. (I wasn't buying any tokens as I had already purchased a FunPass.) Also rode the aerial tram to Roosevelt Island and return - you must have a subway token for access, MetroCard isn't good there. I guess they don't consider it part of the transit system any more. About 15 passengers each way at mid-afternoon. The evening trip in was at my daughter's request - she wanted to go in after finishing the LSAT just to unwind, so we took PATH back in and rode up to 116th on the 1, had dinner at a little Mexican restaurant just south of 125th street station (Casa de Mexico, I think it was called - a little storefront operation, six tables, a/c worked, cheap, quite decent) and then back to 34th in the rain for the ride on NJT back home. Got a couple of front windows, no slants, but I did see some on the Q.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since the R142's won't be here for quite awhile, if any subtalkers are going up North to the Vermont area, perhaps they can stop by the bombardier plant and get some shots of the trains being built. My guess is that most of them are built, but are now just being modified to meet the MTA's demands. Also, if anyone is in the Boston area (I am home for the summer, sorry)...perhaps you can get some pics of the Green Line Type 8 trolleys. Just an idea...but hey, when your on vacation, may as well take the camera. -Nick
Do we have definitive specs on the new BMT-IND equipment?
Will it be 67' or 60'? 67' would effect savings in purchase and maintenance, but I have a feeling the TA will go back to 60'.
I understand it will be 67 feet as I founf on a British web site. The Car mock-up shows ir will have slanted headlights/tail-lights!
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Gimme an e-mail
The website was premature or just plain wrong. While the R-143 was initially intended to be a 67-foot car, I can state without reservation that the car will be a 60-footer, arranged in four-car units.
David
[I understand it will be 67 feet as I founf on a British web site. The Car mock-up shows ir will have slanted headlights/tail-lights!]
The 67' option was given much consideration for the R-143s before the decision was made to go with 60' cars. BTW, the 'first car' inspection for the 143s will be on June 21 in Kobe' Japan. At the same time, the R-142A first car inspection is also scheduled.
What exactly do you mean by first car inspection? Who's inspecting it? Where is the R-142A going to be inspected at?
The posting did say the inspection would be conducted in Kobe, Japan. As for 'First Car Inspection', every contract provides for inspections at key stages in the production process. I think that this is actually the final inspection of the first car prior to it's shipment to Yonkers for final assembly.
Im taking the test Next Saturday. I need some info. Any conductors or motormen on board, let me know something. Or Just email @ the above address. Please get in contact with me.......
What do you want to know?
What type of questions will be asked?
Points of interest, timetables etc.Didn't you read the contents of the test on the notice of examination? I took the bus operator/conductor test which had driving questions as well.Check Barnes and Nobles to see if they have the book for conductor(Arco book).
80 multiple choice questions on points of interest and understanding of rules (which will be explained on the test).
Anybody wanna think about a third NYSR Field Trip? Everything Ive read seems we want to try to do SIR(T). Is this a more fesible weekend deal? How bout on a Sat? Lets talk!! MAYBE we can get ALL the SubTalkers together for this one....
If you want to cover the whole line, perhaps a weekend may be easier to get us all together; however, weekend service is only every half an hour.
--Mark
It's a nice summer trip, with the Ferry an integral part. I share Anon-e-mouse's suggestion for a Sunday - I'm not Orthodox myself, but I am sensitive to those whom we have inadvertently excluded by taking trips on Friday night (some Friday nights I also have bima duties! - many of you know what that means!). Suggestion - Sunday morning - when travel is light. It's true that the SIR trains are only on a half hour headway, but if we make a photo stop on the way back it could be combined with a coffee/bagel stop, maybe at Great Kills (Staten Islanders - what's the best intermediate stop for a quick breakfast in the station vicinity?). Returning to Manhattan, the trains meet the ferries, so that connection should not be a problem. Another way back could be via the S59 from Grasmere and then the R train from 95th St.
I happen to like a weekend jaunt, since I work evenings.
I agree with the idea for a Sunday. We might also try to plan it for a day when Transit Museum has no scheduled tours.
Can someone say how long would it take to do St George to Tottenville & back ? The Newark City Subway (PCC) trip took me about two hours (WTC to 33rd Street). Factoring in the SI Ferry this might take a little longer, but incl. the Ferry should draw in some spouses ... heck it would be a cheep date for a Friday night !
Mr t__:^)
It seems to me that the SIRT trip would best be done beginning earlier on a weekday evening (say around 4:00). Starting at the SI Ferry in Manhattan, we'd be at St George by 5:00; down to Tottenville and back maybe by 7:30/8:00. Starting any later from Manhattan and it becomes a long evening and somewhat in darkness. This would give us the benefit of riding during most of the rush hour for photo stops and whatnot.
-Dave
Good point, Dave... and hopefully a ride on one of the express trains!
As the only Staten Island resident on this board (who is willing to admit to it) I suppose I should take the lead on this and start the planning. I have to say, as a daily rider of the line, I don't see what's special about it. A hike along what is of the North Shore might be a better idea. Service is 1/2 hourly all times except between 6:30 and 9AM and 4:30 and 7PM, when the 'express' trains run. The scheduling would be a little tricky, as there is a point where you have a 1-hour wait for a westbound train between Tottenville and Great Kills. Pick me a day, and I'll start looking at the schedules.
-Hank
I'd prefer a Sunday; although I'm not Orthodox myself, I know we have excluded several of our Orthodox posters by having these trips on Friday night (and Saturday poses the same problem). And a weekday trip prohibits most anyone who doesn't work in NYC from coming.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The problem with doing it on a weekend is the 1/2 hour headway. If we decide to get off the train and explore a bit, we're stuck for 1/2 an hour to continue in our direction of travel. For that matter, it's difficult at any time other than the PM rush.
-Hank
As a x-Staten Island (Tottenville HS Graduate) I have to agree with Hank. There used to be an equipment move around 6pmish that left Express from Tottenville to St. George. It was sometimes two train lenghts. Since they have done some work out at Tottenville and with the new AM starting points other than Tottenville and St. George I don't know if they still do it.
Grabing a Tottenville Express from St. George is fine but it will be Standing Room Only (SRO).
The only northbound (or westbound) express in the pm leaves Tottneville at 516pm and runs nonstop to Prince's Bay the makes all stops to Grasmere and then express to St George. The 536pm from Tottenville makes all stops except Stapleton and Tomkinsville. This is from the SIR Schedule of April 1999
Larry,RedbirdR33
You're not the only Staten islander here!
Dan
New Dorp, SI
My wife loves me a lot but not enough to go on one of our trips...
My girlfreind actually enjoys it. She evenjoined us up for the transit museum!
-Hank
Yes, I know ... have the same problem. If I bring the Grandson she'll usually tag along. Although the SI Ferry ride might just do it for me ... that is if we do some shopping in Mid-town too ;-p
Mr t
I'm also out here, but up on the North Shore. If this trip happens during the week, I can make it, but I work on the weekends (two trips each day on the N).
I have seen speculation on sites about the Y2K computer problem that there may be problems with transit and railroad operations next year. Most of this is about American systems, but I would suppose that foreign operations would be affected too. If anything, many countries seem to be further behind than the U.S. Does anyone have any information about this?
I don't expect any problems with actual operations (signals, operting trains, switches, etc) because practically all of it depends on mechanical relays, not electronics. Of course, if there's a problem with the power supply...
But really, all this Y2K stuff is bull. The only people who REALLY have a y2k problem are those in the financial industry, and computers that calculate billing charges. I don't see how a date change would affect much of anything else.
-Hank
Actually, problems in the financial industry could be a very big deal in itself.
Anyway, even if the NYCTA is not that dependent on electronics for operations, it might be different for newer systems. Also, don't freight railroads have computerized operations for keeping track of their shipments?
You'd be surprised. Y2K issues affect everything. However, I think that most American and Western European firms have done an excellent job of addressing the issues and I foresee few problems - none amounting to more than a minor inconvenience - come January first. (Our oldest VCR won't handle taping anything that crosses the Y2K boundary, for example - big deal! And the two newer ones will in any event.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, Computers have penetrated very deeply into rail operations. for instance, Locomotives now have several systems onboard measuring/controlling such things as fuel burn, traction control and the air brake system. furthermore, car accounting systems, the systems which manage where each shipment's destination is as well as who owes the Railroad money and how much are all computerized. And lastly the national operation centers maintained by CSX,UP,and BNSF control most train movements by these leading railroads. Yes, railroads run on bitstreams just as surely as diesel fuel. The real question is, are they Compliant, or Y2K friendly, I hope so, but so does railroad management and I am confident that the necessary steps are being taken.
Yeah, but does that locomotive have a date dependant computer? Sure, it may be able to tell what day it is, but that has little to no effect on the operation of the unit. At the least, it tells you the time you left and the time you are expected to arrive. At the most, it can tell you when it is next due for a maintainence cycle. Nothing that will cause it (as some have put it) to run wildly out of control or try to take over the planet. The same with elevators, which only care about what day in their cycle it is (running on a 7-day cycle, with a 24-hour clock, so peak service can be provided)
-Hank
In an unusual spirit of cooperation yesterday, the MBTA (Boston) held Purple Line commuter rail trains at North Station five minutes during PM rush hour as a result of a service disruption on the Green Line.
I boarded the Lechmere-bound trolley at Park Street at 4:45 pm, and the operator announced, "Due to an earlier service disruption at Arlington Station, all commuter rail trains are being held five minutes." Arriving at North Station ten mintues early for my 5:10 pm train to Lowell, I inquired at the information booth. The agent told me that trains were actually back on schedule as of 5:00 pm. [We ended up being late anyway -- about one train-length out of North Station we held for ten minutes. The conductor reported that a remotely-operated switch had failed, and had to be hand-thrown.]
That aside, can you imagine the LIRR or MNRR holding trains due to a disruption on the subway for commuters headed to Penn Station or GCT???
LIRR or MN, no. I do know that NJT has been known to hold trains leaving Hoboken when there are PATH delays -- but even that occurs with questionable consistency.
Proud to say Staten Island Railway trains are held for late Staten Island Ferrys. (Well most of the time). If a SIRT train leaves and it is not SRO during Rush Hour, the boat didn't make it.
Hi, again. It seems that enough complaints were made by station agents and the public, that NYC Transit reconfigured the turnstiles at these stations to accept these tranfers within 48 min. At first they were good for only 30 min. (or less). P.S. they also issued new transfer stock with the words"Williamsburg Bridge Reconstruction".
It now appears that there mag. transfers are valid for at least 60 minutes. If anyone knows the deadline, please write. Thanks
My mother used to tell me a story that when the 6th Ave. el was torn down in 1938 the scrap iron was sold to Japananese military, thus creating the ironic situation where Pearl Harbor could have been bombed by the 6th Ave. el. I have a hard time believing this. There was some sort of trade embargo placed on Japan before WWII but I'm not sure about dates. Anybody know if this is true? Or was someone funning with my mom....
[My mother used to tell me a story that when the 6th Ave. el was torn down in 1938 the scrap iron was sold to Japananese military, thus creating the ironic situation where Pearl Harbor could have been bombed by the 6th Ave. el. I have a hard time believing this. There was some sort of trade embargo placed on Japan before WWII but I'm not sure about dates. Anybody know if this is true?]
I've heard that story too. It *could* be true, but more likely it's in the same category as the one about the woman who tried to dry off her cat/poodle/small child in the microwave.
My mother insists that it's true. My grandfather worked for 35 years (1938-73) for the BMT and later the MTA and told her it is true. But it does sound rather preposterous.
My father worked at a steel mill making specialty steel (gun barrels & tank armor) before and in the early stages of WWII and he used to talk about shipping this military steel to Japan right through November, 1941. Just another example of the free trade fools selling this country down the sewer. ACCEPT REGULATION, DON'T SELL YOUR E*N*E*M*I*E*S the rope Foreign interests are snapping up U.S. companies as fast as they can and shutting them down by the dozen. P*R*O*T*E*C*T America, Laissez-Faire economics is nothing more then the basest instincts of human nature, Regulation protects the entrepreneur from his own deadly suicidal stupidity, harnessing his profit motive for the maximum benefit, HIS OWN INCLUDED.
I find your ideas intriguing. Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe too?
(sarcasm mode off)
If indeed the scrap metal from the demolition of the 6th Avenue El was sold to Japan, I don't suppose the city (via the Board of Transportation?) was directly responsible. Presumably, the city sold the scrap to a dealer, who in turn (possibly through other middlemen) sold it to the Japanese. It's hard to imagine that the city would have been engaged in foreign trading.
Japan is not a large country blessed with abundant resources. Anything being built for the Japanese military in the 1930s (from aircraft carriers to samurai swords) was probably starting out as scrap bought from the US. One of the reasons for Japan's expansionist policy in the 1930s was to acquire sufficient resources to support the country's economy. Noone knows what the steel from the el was used for, but it is known that Japanese shells during WWII used Ford car door handles for schrapnel.
Chris: It needs to be remembered that during the World War I the US and Japan were allies. The Japanese were the ones who took over the German Colonies in the Pacific;ie the Marshalls,Caroline and Mariana Islands. The two countries did enjoy good trade relations during the twenties and into the thirties but the aggressive expansionist policies of the Japanese Government which culminated in the July 1,1937 "Incident" at the Marco Polo Bridge, a staged action which Japan used as an excuse for the invasion of Manchuria.
One by one the economic ties with Japan where broken as the US made it clear that it would not subsidize Japan's aggressive war against China. The steel shipment which may have included steel from the Sixth Avenue El was I believe the last one made to Japan. Sometime after that an embargo was placed on oil and steel.
It would be well to remember that even though relations were strained between the two countries both still maintained full diplomatic ties and there were numerous social and education exchanges up until the attack on Pearl Harbor. The US and USSR maintained relations for nearly fifty years which by comparison made the US-Japanese rerations look downright friendly and yet the US and USSR never went to war with each other.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks. I knew that we placed a trade embargo on the Japanese for steel and oil, but I wasn't sure of the dates, so I wasn't sure if this story was true or not. It's interesting to note that the oil embargo was the main factor that led the Japanese to choose to go to war with the US in the first place. But I think we are drifting a bit off topic ...
It is a well known story. I remember reading a poem by e. e. cummings in high school (he always spelled is name in small letters like that) that ended with the lines
"it took a nipponized piece of the old sixth avenue el
in the back of his head, to tell him."
(or something like that). The teacher explained what "nipponized" meant when I asked.
Of course, the fact that the el could have wound up in bullets (or bombs) doesn't prove that it did.
I thought it was kind of amusing that the city's zeal to tear down all the old els may have cost us the war. But that's really pushing it...lol
during WWII work details of German POW's were used to tear up the trolley tracks in Syracuse
hmmm, isn't the use of POW's for manual labor forbidden by the Geneva convention? Not that I have any sympathy for Nazi prisoners...
If I recall, the use of POWs for war labor is forbidden. Ordinary labor is permitted.
The one thing I remember that was a bummer to me was the condition of
the approaches to Stillwell Avenue and the condition of that terminal itself. As I descended down the stairs to Surf Avenue, I noticed how dirty and seedy it looked. In fact, the BMT signs at the entrance looked tarnished as well. Has anything been done to spruce up the station? I hope it looks better than it did in 1991.
The station looks exactly the same as it did in 1991, actually it probably looks the same from when it opened!
If you saw the website www.forgotten-ny.com, mentioned in an earlier post, there is a whole discussion plus pics of this station.
A major rehab of the station was announced recently. What's the zoning? We should try to get some retail in there. What is located under the tracks?
There is some retail located in the entranceways but don't know much about what's further back. The station is in so-so condition. They put a nice seaside-theme mural up near the ceiling. There is much evidence of water damage. One stairway appeared to have been recently painted. Once on the platforms, it's quite nice. The entranceways, stairways, and rampways need TLC.
Wayne
My wife was at Coney Island recently with our little girls. The problem is that the one public bathroom is no place to change and take a shower. In fact, for any sit down business, its no place to go to the bathroom either. So the kids have to wear their bathing suits there and back, and come home covered with sand.
According to "When Brooklyn Was the World," there used to be a municipal bathhouse and 30 private bathhouses at Coney Island. They provided lockers and showers, and beach gear for rent, for a modest fee. The city could never open such a facility today -- a judge would rule that those with substance abuse problems have a right to live there.
But wouldn't it be great if the TA could lease space to two or three competing private operators of such facilities right at Stillwell Terminal? You could arrive directly from work on the subway, place your work clothes and wallet in a rented locker, ren at towel and buy a picnic dinner, and go out to the beach. After a shower, the subway would take you home.
There sure seems to be a lot of space there. And with the water damage, there are practically showers there now.
[But wouldn't it be great if the TA could lease space to two or three competing private operators of such facilities right at Stillwell Terminal? You could arrive directly from work on the subway, place your work clothes and wallet in a rented locker, ren at towel and buy a picnic dinner, and go out to the beach. After a shower, the subway would take you home.]
Yes ... yes ... yes !
NYC is a great place to live. You would think that Rudy & his "qualitity of life" campain team would have been there & begun an effort to clean it up. Coney Island belongs to all of us, lets take it back from the bums & low life ... let them move to Rockaway Beach (just kidding).
Mr t__:^)
Coney Island has been 'run down' for more than 30 years. And yet it survives. It has outlasted the South Beach and Midland Beach amusement areas on Staten Island (torn down in the 1950s), Freedomland in the Bronx (now co-op city), and I'm pretty sure that Playland in the Rockaways is gone also. Politicos have been crying about Coney Island for years. It's jam-packed on weekends, so let's leave the damn place alone. This whole sports stadium thing is one more attempt to 'revitalize' the area. If the city is lucky people will drive to the minor league stadium, then drive right home afterwards by-passing the amusement area in their air-conditioned autos at great speed. There is an underlying political fantasy that middle-class families will flock to a 'new' Coney Island via the subway on weekends. I don't think so, the tastes of the middle-class have changed.
Dan: You may be right, but I think the magic name to Coney Island would stir emotions of long ago joys and thrills. Riding the Cyclone or Tornado, going down the chute, eating a hot dog under the boardwalk, wading into a packed ocean, or even listening to a ball game on the sand with everyone bugging you for the score, all of these hark back to memories of our youth. Young kids today do not go to Saturday matinee movies, many do not venture out to play stickball, and many of the old candy stores of New York are gone, but Coney Island remains. I feel in my bones that a revived Coney Island would be a magnet for those who want to show their kids what a real playland was like. That's just my opinion, but, then again, Coney Island was a
magic part of when I was a youngster in New York and even now 3,000 miles away, nothing takes the place of the Coney Island of my youth
Coney Island is seedy, for sure, but that is part of its charm.
Things that can be done to make it more attractive:
* Remove/raze/rehabilitate all abandoned properties
* Police presence to ensure safety for all
* More/better rides and attractions
* Closed/shuttered retail stores should be targeted for re-opening under new/different management. (Tax incentives?)
* Cosmetic improvements in and around the Boardwalk
* The bath house/shower rooms idea is very good and deserves a look
Wayne
[re privately operated, leased-from-TA bathhouses serving Coney Island]
Nice idea, but it reminds me a lot of the city's plan to let private operators install pay toilets on sidewalks. I first heard of that idea at least four years ago. And, of course, absolutely nothing's come of it - there aren't any toilets on the sidewalks other than the sidewalks themselves :-) Anyway, this experience makes it rather hard to think that the Coney Island plan would be any more successful.
The reason there are no pay toilets is a state law that prohibits people from charging. If you can't charge, no one can afford the cost of properly maintaining and policing the facility. I thought it was a typical something for nothing, NYC liberal policy. But the law was fought for and passed by an Assemblywoman from --- Long Island. And, inertia being what it is, it has never been repealed.
To Larry and Thurston and the rest of you who responded to my complaint about Stillwell Avenue----thanks a lot. It seems many of you ought to be in government. There are some great ideas of how to restore that seedy area. Going to Coney Island on the Sea Beach in the late 40's and early 50's was such a treat. Too bad it has gotten so bad. I still feel that if they wanted to they could do much to restore what I once considered the greatest playground in the world-----Coney Island.
(You should be in government). I am in government, but having got in, I found that it is impossible to accomplish anything. I think I have just about convinced the Brooklyn Office at City Planning to do a study of Coney Island. I'm sure it will have as much of an impact as the study of the Manhattan Bridge I got the Transportation Office to do.
We used to produce reports that gathered dust. In the cost conscious Giuliani years, we realized that by never finishing the projects, we saved money on paper, and no one really missed the reports.
Larry, you might want to see IKIRU an Akira Kurosawa film about a Japanese civil servant.
I really think that is a good idea! If they can get past the security problems (make sure drug dealers don't use it as a transaction area) and of course the city, I can see some potential there.
If you saw the website www.forgotten-ny.com, mentioned in an earlier post, there is a whole discussion plus pics of this station.
Hey, thanx for the plug!
Kevin Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
PS. Dig that crazy Depression-era sign a few yards into the Stillwell station. Hard to photograph it because it's perpetually in the shadows.
Yes we saw that! Great stuff. I found a ton of other things out there as well, too numerous and off-topic to mention.
Love those lamp posts! Long live the radial wave!
Wayne
<<>>
The radial waves are making a comeback on some new storefront awnings. I've also seen them in the new Hunters Point condo development in Queens.
Thank you for the information! I know this is off topic but I am reminiscing - as a child I lived in a house in Elmont, NY which fronted on a busy street (Meacham Avenue) and had a yard that went 160' through to a side street in the back (Oakley Avenue). There was a telephone pole right behind the yard, and on it was a Gooseneck Radial Wave street light, set about 12 feet up. It had a very dim bulb. They replaced it in 1966 with a short-crook-arm Crescent Moon fixture (with plastic bulb shield), then on July 14, 1969, we saw the Lilco Trucks out back - they took down the Crescent Moon. They were installing a Mercury-Vapor "Cheerfuls" up and down the street.
Street lights bring back good memories.
Wayne
Want to see some Pics
check out
http://geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/7650/NYCTransit.html
and scroll down to Trevor Pics and then click anything you want to see
NYC Bus, NYC Subway Cars, DOT Buses, etc.
Enjoy
Trevor
Does anyone know when the SOAC's were in Philadelphia and for how long?
Also, did they run on the Broad Street Subway or PATCO?
Both. Not sure when the Broad Street service started but it ended April 30, 1975 and it was the last of the five city tour of the SOAC; the PATCO service was from 8/12/76 to 1/24/77. See http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/soac.html.
I rode those trains one Sunday with my family and friends. We went down to Pattison av. only to find that it was a special charter for the "Budd Co. -Railway Division" . When I told them I was with the
"Budd Co. -Trailer Division (no lie, I was) they told us to come aboard! Great ride, a lot better than the Broad St. Black Bullies!
Those old cars really were showing their age.
Chuck Greene
I recall the train being here in early '75 so this would jibe with Dave's end date. As I also recall, it didn't run much on PATCO - I think it made a couple of round trips a day on weekdays and even then it often didn't make the trips. Since it was a 2-car set, and PATCO peak-hour trains are 4-car and 6-car affairs, it was generally kept out of service in the peaks. Similarly, I seem to recall it not running in evening and night service, which was often served by single-car "trains" in those days.
On the Broad Street Subway, it usually ran in off-peaks also for the same reason, although I recall it making more runs on weekends. It was usually behind another train by 2 or 3 minutes so many riders never saw or rode it (and surprisingly by the time it got to the terminal it was often right in front of its follower - the old cars kept pace with it!).
I also recall that the signs were always positioned to an indication of "Service to Fern Rock". Other signs were installed but every time I saw the train it always had the same sign displayed. Perhaps this confused southbound riders?
Enough about backward esculators!! WHERE ARE MY SLANTS???
As you know I am a daily Brighton Rider and for the first time in my life I rode both ways a R40M!!! My wife as well got one so that is 3 out of four trips (2 AM/2Pm Rush).
I know there is a post about this and Wayne has spotted the numbers but I feel like there is more than 4 40M train sets running. Matter of fact I had to go to MetroTech today so it was a complete R40M ride since I caught the M at Dekalb.
I'm just real upset about this, worst thing since the Brighton went to all R68's when the Q was running 68A's......
Maybe I should try that Sir Message Post thing, Think It would Help?
Dear Sirs,
Please bring back the Slants to the Q line Sirs. Not only is it upsetting that there is now a mixture of equipment on the line, the novelity of watching the N at Queens Plaza is being effected!!
Thank you Sirs!!
(Okay it's the heat and long hours at work....)
There has been much discussion on Subtalk of late about resuming F express service in Brooklyn...can anyone shed any light on why it was discontinued in the first place?
Because the people who lived along the Culver line who used the local stations complained about the lack of service. IIRC only alternate F trains traveled express, with the other F trains plus the G running local.
Just a quick question: When were those express tracks built? There is no record of any express service before 1967, yet those tracks look fairly original. I would assume had those express tracks been available before 1967 the TA could have used both the D and F trains to provide express/local service.
It was general policy to build Dual Contract lines with three tracks, even if express service was not immediately planned.
Experience showed that if ridership grew, adding a third track later was disproportionately expensive to providing for one in the first place. Having a third track also gained operating advantages for maintenance, tie-ups, and such.
Note that third tracks were provided for on lines where they were not immediately built because other parts of the line would need to be reconstructed first--I'm thinking of Jamaica L beyond Cypress Hills and parts of the Myrtle Ave. Line.
One of the reasons that the F Culver Express was discontinued was that it was hoped it would relieve the Brighon Line, but did not.
The Culver Express Track south of Ditmas Av did have reverse peak express service by BMT #5 Nassau-Culver trains until the early 1950's.I'm not sure of the exact dates.
The Smith St Line express tracks did not have express service until August 19,1968 when all rush hour F's ran express in both directions between Jay St and Church Av and Coney Island F's ran express between Church Av and Kings Highway in the direction of traffic.
The people at the local stations on the Smith St line complained about lack of direct service to/from Manhattan so on June 16,1969 serive was changed so that the Kings Highway F's would make Brooklyn local stops while the Coney Island F's continued to run express. This was later changed so that all F's would run local between Jay and Church in the direction of traffic while the Coney Island F's would run express in the off peak direction. Later they simply had all F's run local north of 18 Av at all times.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The IND South Brooklyn line was designed and built as a four-track line, as were all other IND trunk lines (except for the Concourse line and, if you're a purist, the 6th Ave. line). Quite frankly, the layout at Bergen St. was ill-conceived. It could have served its purpose much better had it been built as a single-level, four-track station.
It seems that the entire IND system was built with a futuristic approach, with express service provided for whether it was needed at the time or not.
As for why there was no express service prior to Chrystie St. (and F express service was actually implemented on July 1, 1968), it's possible there wasn't enough ridership to justify implementing it.
This section can be easily related to the issue of Broadway Expresses without the Manhattan Bridge. The G cannot provide enough local service between Bergen St. and Church Av. to handle the traffic volume. Thus as explained in the other posts, there MUST be some F service running local. As on Broadway, there is not enough of a gain from running express to avoid bunching of trains. Thus the whole thing runs better by turning the G at Smith-9th and running all Fs local.
If F trains leave Kings Highway (and therefore Church Av) every five minutes they will arrive at Jay St. on about the same 5 minute headway. If it takes a local train 12 minutes between Church and Jay and an express train 8 minutes, then the local leaving on the hour will arrive at Jay St. at 12 past, while the express will follow at 13 past, followed by a 9 minute gap and two more trains in quick succession. Now the paired trains will play tag all the way to 179th St. messing up the E as they go...
Therefore, the only option for running express trains is to run enough G trains as locals to allow sufficient service between Bergen & Church [Gee, Steve, can you support another five or six trains to cover the extension and a shorter headway?](Maybe with a "Giant Hand" to take the trains out of Jamaica Yard and put them somewhere else overnight) :) Then there is the small problem that most of the riders on these trains would change trains at either Bergen or Church anyway, leaving them almost empty for the run to Court Sq. A peak direction express to CI or Kings Highway has some merit, but would strip trains from the peak local while leaving the original headway on the local running against the flow.
Now if there was another outlet for the line south of Church Av. (as envisioned by the IND Second System) there might be some value in those express tracks!
The city cut back a lot of transit spending in 1975-76 due to the fiscal crisis at the time. There were other many reductions besides the loss of peak 'F' express service.
Can you (or anyone who reads this) provide any detail about the transit cutbacks during the dark days of the city's 70's financial crisis?
It was mostly midnite hours cutbacks like the AA being discontinued with the A making all local stops, the GG being cut back to Queens Plaza, The N & B being cut back to 36/4 (when the N/R had the terminal swaps, the R cut back at 36/4 and the N went thru), then #6 being cut back to 125 St., and others.
Just this morning on NY1, they reported a plan to increase Manhattan late night service, by making the 2 run local, and extending the 6 back to Brooklyn Bridge (but if they're making the 2 local, then I'm sure the 4 would stay local).
JHaving the 4 local is bad enough, but to make the 2 local also will be too much. They'll be taking away all of Brooklyn and the Bronx's late night IRT exress service, and those are long local rides; for the sake of Manhattan riders.
It's a sneaky way of saying they're increasing service when actually they're not. I won't be suprised to hear that they also plan to run the D local along Central Park West as another "increase" too.
Yes, its a joke. When a government official spins something, the papers report it as true. But when someone says something ridiculous against a government official, they report that as true as well. That's because they hire reporters who know nothing about the subjects they report on.
One could make the case (unless you happen to be at an express stop) that its better to wait five minutes for a local than 10 minutes for an express. But if they wanted to serve anyone other than Manhattan, why not extend all these lines through Atlantic Ave on the express tracks? At least those living in close in Brooklyn could get out there and take a bus or cab.
I agree that spinning these changes as "service increases" is a stretch, but I still think the changes are for the better. Not only for those in Manhattan, but for the people in the outer boroughs as well.
While I love a good express run as much as the next railfan, I can't see the point of having express service when the local stations are getting service every 20 minutes. If someone is travelling from 86th and B'way to anywhere on the 2 in the Bx., it doesn't make sense that they should have to wait up to 20 minutes for a 1 train, travel one stop and then have another wait of up to 20 minutes for the 2.
Making the 2 local from midnight to 5 AM probably adds no more than 10 minutes to the entire trip (assuming a little less than 1 minute per added station).
Wrong, wrong, wrong. The best option is always to have as much RAPID transit as feasible. The point of express service in Manh, is not only to speed a short trip but more importantly shorten the long slow ride home to x location in the outer boro. It is extremely sad and short sighted of the TA management geniuses to cripple service in a period when usage is growing. This sort of sabotage might be excusable during a recession with the attendant decline in ridership, but now this is sheer madness.
Crippling? Madness?
I think that's a pretty big exageration. Nobody is calling for the end of express service except between about 1AM and 5AM -- when all lines are on a 20 minute headway at best.
Currently, passengers who take the 2 to Brooklyn or the Bronx and board at local stations have to wait up to 20 minutes for a 1 during the overnight, and then wait up to 20 minutes more once they get to Chambers or 96th for the ride to their destination. Making the 2 local in Manh. eliminates one of the waits -- it makes the trip to the outer boroughs faster. In addition, it creates 10 minute headways between 96th and Chambers.
The only passengers who are slowed by this are those who normally board the 2 at express stations. And they are only slowed by about 1 minute per local stop normally skipped -- probably less. Since the busiest stations on the 1 overnight are not necessarily the express stops (34th and 14th are rather quiet overnight, while some of the downtown stops and 86th are rather busy) it's a case of a few being inconvenienced for the sake of many.
Travel time is the reason I recommended VERY frequent IRT service in the overnight, with bus connections in Downtown Brooklyn, Queens Plaza, and the Hub, and a shutdown of other lines. A three minute wait and an express ride would more than compensate for the longer walk to the subway and the need to transfer to a somewhat frequent (10 min) bus, and would be cheaper too. A 20 minute wait is awful -- and may be followed by a change as well.
A well-reasoned response. I bet a lot of people don't go from, say, Allerton Avenue in the Bronx to Newkirk Avenue in Brooklyn, but a lot just need to get a connection from 86th and Bway to Times Sq to change for the Flushing line, or from 33rd and Park to Brooklyn Bridge to get the J train. This change makes every main N/S line except the Broadway (BMT) have two trains stop at every station on its main trunk. The express service on the CPW line will probably remain because there is not a high usage of that line's local stops anyway, and it's almost all residential.
They probably got the idea for short headways and all locals overnight from when they made the Queens line have all local service overnight and found it was a success.
Anyway, the arrival of a train late at night sure gives a me a warm feeling inside, which is a LOT better than watching one whiz by on the express track or waiting 20 minutes to travel for 8 minutes.
I like a nice express run too, but I have to admit that, for late-night service, the all-local idea makes sense. Local stops during off hours take very little time - the doors usually open and close back up within a few seconds. And with 20-minute headways between trains, it can be very annoying to miss an express train that goes by while you are waiting on a local platform. This happened to me a week or so ago, I was at 79th St./Broadway, the 2 went past me, the 1 arrived a few minutes later, but then I had a lo-o-ong wait at 96th St. for the next uptown 2.
There one good thing and one bad thing about the No.2 going Local. The good thing is they can't make too many 8 HR jobs so the Midnight and PM jobs will have 9 HRS so its good for the crews for overtime. But its a dragged out trip going 241 to Flatbush 1 HR 27 Minutes going Express. Im lucky if i'm not only 5 Minutes late. Now with the train going local the running time will probably be 1 HR 37 Minutes. Now add track gangs which may be a 5 Minute delay. I feel bad for the unluck person forced to do a job like that. Now on the Lexington Ave Line they have a good plan there making the No.6 run to Booklyn Bridge. The No.4 Line running time as a Local is about 1 HR and 25 Minutes so it wouldn't be that bad keeping the No.4 Local. Now what to do about the west side. I suggest wake the No.3 Line and have them run as a Local from 148 Street to South Ferry. That would help the people below 96 Street and those who want the boat. Also have the No.3 only run 5 cars.
Hey, now that's a thought. It would essentially resurrect the old 7th Ave. local. It would have to switch tracks north of 96th St., but then 3 trains were doing that the other way during the Lenox tunnel reconstruction.
If I had to vote, I'd say keep the 2 running express in Manhattan 24/7.
I think the 2 running local at night is good for the regular passengers. People against that are typical railfans. I enjoy a good express ride but hate waiting for trains late at night.
As a transit employee I both favor and dislike this idea. On the plus side is that the express tracks can be used for work trains, etc. reducing daytime reroutes and of course the shorter wait since both the 1 and 2 would make all stops. The negative- Penn Station has a separate express platform and unless the platform is locked with floor to ceiling gates, no signs , no PA announcements, no person in uniform short of a cop will convince them that there is no express. Another problem is the transition from express and local to local only and back again . There will be a few straggler trains and when you tell them there is no express a train will arrive on the express track and they'll say that we dont know what we are talking about and proceed to cuss us out. I have had customers go into lengthy tirades over such situations and finally broke it up by warning that the cops are on the way.
***disclaimer- opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
You're right about that! I don't know how many times I've arrived at Penn Station at about 10:30 PM looking to take the A uptown and not known whether to head for the express or local platform.
At least on the 7th Avenue line it is easy to switch platforms. At 34th/8th you have to go all the way to the northern end of the local platform to switch to the express platform.
Not only railfans but what about the Train Crews 1 Hr and 37 Minutes each way if the No.2 goes local. The only good thing is the Overtime. I think the Express ride is what keeps the crew awake after those slow timers in Brooklyn.
You do have a point about the timers in Broklyn. Isnt it horrible?
If #2 midnite local service would increase crew costs, the TA would never go along with the idea. It will keep the crews in the cab a little longer and in the crew room shorter. And the TA loves that! And the TA will STILL yell for productivity improvements at the bargaining table! One thing not addressed: that 20 minute midnite headway gives crews time to pick up the refuse that is bagged and left on the platforms for the collector. If a road train is behind, that garbage is not picked up, and sometimes the collector is not able to come back a second so the garbage piles up and up and up. Now with 2 services 10 minutes apart, it will be tougher to pick up the trash.
Hey everyone, if you want a long trip from one end to the other, the A on the midnites from 207 to Far Rock is 1 hour 45 minutes, against the wall.
But we should look at it from the passenger standpoint. While the perception is that a local will come into the station in the city every ten minutes (#1 and #2 trains alternativly) the poor folks who have to go the the Bronx, or Brooklyn or to catch the boat at South Ferry still have to wait 20 minutes.
Service on the midnites is generally lackluster as it is. For those of us who are out here in the wee hours we know about the work gangs and the maintainers and one G.O after another...not to mention the occasional police action or vandalism on the train. Heaven help the poor riders who have to wait because a crew member has booked sick and the crew office has no replacement. ABD and go on a flex which means now if you just missed your deuce to White Plains, you're going to wait a half hour.
Maybe instead of this illusion of more service (#2's going local on Broadway) the TA could shorten the headway to 15 minutes instead of 20 (major G.O.s like 1498-99 single track at Mott not withstanding). That would be a real improvement for the riding public (and for operating personnel in terms of more jobs).
Long waits in empty stations is dangerous. Late night is when all the crime and vandalism happens. Running trains every five or ten minutes , with ten people on a train, is a huge burden in money and energy. How much could service be improved during the rest of the day if the subsidy required for late night could be reduced?
With less traffic on the street, a bus with a traffic signal override and limited stops could really sweep along. The traffic signal over-ride will soon be possible. Wouldn't it be better to have a unified rail/bus system at night, with a transfer between them, than two separate systems that are drastically scaled down?
I say shut down the B division, and run the A division every five minutes as far as Queensborough Plaza, the Hub in the Bronx, and Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn. Then run buses every 10 minutes or so along modified subway routes with traffic signal over-rides. For outer areas that are far away, have the buses run express along highways and then local. For example, a Rockaway bus could take the LIE to Woodhaven Blvd before making local stops on Woodhaven/Cross Bay to Far Rockaway.
The money saved by not operating empty trains and stations would probably be sufficient to have a 50 cent fare in the late night hours.
Late nites are used for more than passenger trains-we have money trains, garbage trains, work trains, station repair workers, police officers or bus operators wishing to use facillities. Even if the trains did not run, we'd be in the booth to watch the station. Also- there are stations such as Bleecker that connect with the IND. gates would have to be installed to block the other portion. Another "Joint" station is 5th Ave/42nd and 6th. Another factor: at some IRT stations (Fulton comes to mind), you use the IND platform to connect the two IRT sides. OK- we have just work trains:" guess what-- they'd be asking for facillities or going out for food or coffee. Yesterday at Astor I had tons of activity with works crews bringing down tons of supplies for an upcoming G.O. where all downtown 4 and 6 will run local from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge starting 6/22 till 8/15/1999.11 pm-5AM. On weekends till 7/12/1999, it will be 10PM Friday PM till 5Am Monday. PLAN AHEAD!
No- bus only at night except IRT wont work. I have ridden late nite IND/BMT and they often have quite a load of revenue passengers (not homeless or fare jumpers).
disclaimer: the above post is personal opinion and not the opinions of MTA or NYCT
The 2 running local slows everything down. I say the MTA should run as little service as possible (which is what they do) but they can't on the West Side IRT because the local and express branch off from each other at Chambers and 96th and people won't want to take a shuttle to Chambers, transfer to the thru train, and transfer to the shuttle at 96th again. So why not run the 2 express and have timed transfers at the local-express transfers?
I also think that the 5 should terminate at 125th Street late nights instead of East 180th so people can get onto the 4 local from the 5 without having to take the 2.
Late night service shows the damage wrought by a political culture that is against change. People are committed to 24 hour service using the same routes, but the cost is prohibitive, so the political solution is sham service. The bus system basically shuts down -- 60 minute headways -- and runs empty. Subway trips are interminable, with multiple transfers, shuttles, and 20 minute headways. Crime and damage occurs.
Of course New York needs 24 hour service -- lots of people have to work in the late hours, and entertainment is a key industry. But as it is now, travel for late night workers is hell, and late night partiers avoid mass transit. Paying to run mid-day service late at night? From what other priority would you divert money for this purpose.
Got to think about another way. Given the political outcry, however, the MTA would never dare to study, let alone study, another way. So it imposes sham late night service instead, below the radar screen of the anti-change activists.
Boy, you're correct about late night workers suffering from awful subway service. Back in 1995 I worked the 5 pm to 1 am shift at a location in Middle Village. At first I took the subway home. Pure hell. The M shuttle only ran every 25 minutes, and some strange schedule quirk made almost every M shuttle arrive at Broadway/Myrtle about 1 minute after a Jamaica bound J would leave. I would always curse as I saw a J train leave Myrtle as the train I was on waited for the middle track to clear. I knew I was cursed to wait at least 20 minutes for another J train in the middle of the most dangerous part of Brooklyn. And to top it off the station's lights never really worked, leaving it very dark. I gave up after 3 months.
Then I tried the bus. Normally taking the Q54 to Woodhaven Blvd. for a transfer to the Q11 was not a problem.....during the daytime. The ride rarely took a half hour total. But not at night. The bus reduces to a schedule of about 1 bus every hour. Which might be OK if the bus actually stuck to a schedule. No matter how hard one tried the Q54 bus never maintained a reliable schedule. I can remember running to catch a bus which happened to be early, only to miss it and be forced to wait an hour or so for the next bus. And the same story with the Q11. Once I got to Woodhaven Blvd. there awaited me another long wait for the next Q11 bus. I would often start walking down Woodhaven Blvd. and not see the next bus until I was already down to Jamaica Ave.
Thankfully I made a friend who lived in my neighborhood who had a car and offered to drive me home. Otherwise I would have been forced to give that job up.
With the SI Ferry only running once an hour (leaves Whitehall at 30 past the hour), we don't want more service; just service that gets us to the boat on time. The idiot who schedules a train into South Ferry at 2332 should be shot - orat te very least be made to work as Conductor on the trip.
No great loss there, especially with those lovable, lumbering R-68s.
The only advantage I can see to keeping the 2 and the D as expresses in Manhattan at all times is that during the wee hours, these two lines do not share trackage with any other route. They have the express tracks all to themselves with no need to merge with another route. In the case of the D, you can leave the Y switches south of 59th St. set for it all night, as well as the Homeball Alley switches from the express tracks to the Concourse line. With the 2, there are no switches to worry about.
Hey, I love the R-68's. LOL.
That plan stinks if you ask me. 2 service is slow already even with the express run in Manhattan. I've waited over 45 minutes for a Flatbush bound 2 late nights/early morning. the only good thing about the 2 is that its almost never empty because it almost never comes! Pretty safe...
P.S. To Mr. Transit Professional: Don't be offended by the name...you will always be THE PROFESSIONAL on this board
And let's not forget the Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle, which was discontinued in 1977, along with all Lexington Ave. service to South Ferry. The loss of the shuttle was no big deal, IMHO, since Bowling Green is just up the street from the ferry.
At what age do you have to be to become a conductor? I want to become one some day and become a driver. Also are any of you drivers,conductor are on the 4,B, or D lines? Thank you.
18 years old
Yesterday mark another railfan trip. I took the 7 express. Nice run. The 7 is my favorite IRT. It is nice and short. When I take my conductors test and hopefully pass, I think I want to pick this line. Took the 7 to 74 and then transfer to the G. Tried looking for that second station. Took the G to Metro and changed to the L home.
Comments:
1. The 7 is cool and run very rapidly. I was very shocked that when we got to QBP, the local was in the station and we were only a car length away from it. Normally it is about 4-5 cars lengths. We entered the station and the local was still in there.
2. Main Street look nice. Its a shame that they wont be able to extend it further into Queens.
3. Express run was nice. Slowed down at 90 because of trackwork(During Rush Hour?). Like being on top of the 111 Sta.
4. Saw a train that terminated at Shea Stadium. Never saw one before.
5. I felt kind of weird being on the 7 with a Yankess cap on. Wrong IRT.
6. Never figure the G was that pack at rush hour.
7. Metro look real nice. Greenpoint Ave look nice also.
8. The last car 6060 hada railfan window.(R46)
9. Now I have to take the A to see which line comes out n top......
Mike, it's really there - check out the description and details at Brennan's Guide to Disused and Abandoned Subway Stations - it's a pretty good description. Now that I've got my new G3 Mac with scanner operational, I'll try and find the slides I took a couple of years ago and mail them to Dave for posting (assuming they scan decently).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wasn't going to tell this story since its a bit off topic but since there have been several comments about the good soul who was deadheading (a railroad term) on the #1 here it is.
Some time ago my wife's cousin was driving a station wagon on the Jersey Turnpike with his assistant. He was travelling in the High-Occupancy Vehicle Lanes (HOV) which require a minimum of three passengers to a car. He was stopped by a state trooper who only saw two people in the car. My wife's cousin got out of the car and walked to the rear of a station wagon and openned the door,there inside was a body lying peacefully. Its seems that the cousin is an undertaker and that he,his assistant and the customer in the back constitute three passengers including the driver. The traffic laws don't specify that any of the passengers must be living. The trooper got a good laugh and let him go.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'll tell a similar tale involving subways! Back in 1951 my father was a first year medical student at Downstate Med. School (now SUNY) in Brooklyn. He commuted from his parents apartment in Pelham Parkway (the Bronx).
First year med students spend a lot of time in the anatomy lab and my dad was no exception. While studing the hand/arm he decided to take a "specimen" home one day. Now, you can't walk around with a severed arm without attracting attention! Since it was winter he stuck the arm in his coat sleeve while pulling in his own arm. What you would see is his real hand coming through one coat sleeve and the cadaver hand coming through the other.
Riding the White Plains Rd. train home he used his real hand to grab the strap on a crowded rush hour train. Going over some rough roadbed the cadaver arm fell out of his coat! People stared and a woman screamed! There was an off-duty cop on the train and he immediately detained my father, instructing the motorman to hold at the next station while the police arrived.
It took my father about an hour and several phone calls to the medical school to convince the cops my dad was neither a ghoul nor grave robber!
(People stared and a woman screamed in 1951). Today, people would avoid eye contact and try to avoid getting involved, just as they did when they noticed someone not moving on the train.
In otherwords, today nobody would "lend a hand".
Drumroll, please! (always appreciate a good pun).
They wouldn't? Not even to a HANDsome man like Dave's father?
ok, ok, I'll stop before you all start flinging cyber-tomatoes...
-Damian
I tried it today. When I got off @ Wall St,This lady was staring at me like I was supposed to be dead..........
So, to summarize this thread, in the subway, both limbs and fellow passengers are, at times, detached!!!!
Has anyone notice that the sealings on the the #4 train r62 units are backwards?
On June 15th, at about 6pm, I actually saw a train of R-42's on the northbound express track at Kings Highway. (I was on a Q R-40 coming into this station on the southbound express track)
I spotted 3 r42 Q trains. I was on an Coney Island B train, the Q of r42s was heading north pulling out the B'way-Lafayette St. station. Another not in service, I guess waiting for the rush hour runs between Brighton Beach, & Ocean Parkway Station, then one pulling in to Brighton Beach. But all slants from there.
The Shore Line Trolley Museum presents New York in June
on Saturday June 26 and Sunday June 27.
Public transporation made New York City grow, forging a connected
network of five boroughs from a loosely associated pair of cities
and surrounding villages. The museum's extensive collection
of NY-area rail vehicles, the largest such privately held
collection, illustrates this story.
Please join us and enjoy a ride on everything from a 4-wheeler
trolley to a 60 foot subway car. The event runs rain or shine.
First car departs East Haven at 10:30 AM. Thereafter 20 minute
headways until the last trip at 4:30 PM.
Railfans, be sure to ask about our "after-hours special"!
If you'd like a chance to learn to operate a streetcar or subway
car, this is your opportunity.
The museum is convenient by car or by rail via New Haven's Union
Station. For more information,
go to http://www.bera.org
I've said this a couple of times before, but think it bears repeating, so please excuse me ...
If you love NYC old trolleys & subways this is an event not to be missed. They'll bring out single and multi car sets, e.g. a Hi-V/Lo-V lash up. It also great fun to watch as they play with the subways on the switching tracks jockeying them around to change the lash up. If it's a warm day riding a "convertable" trolley with it's sides removed is a treat even if you never rode one before. And how about riding PCC #1001 backwards ! The four wheeler is fun too, because the conductor will bring it up to speed & you will have to hold on to something not to end up on the floor.
P.S. Even though I joined BERA last Fall I still consider myself a "customer" since I haven't "helped" yet ... even missed the picnic, but maybe next year.
Mr t__:^)
Hey Thurston! Are you coming out for the Branford Event? I may participate in some shape or form, to be determined. One thing's for certain, I'll be riding down the line in the Subway/PCC stuff....
Come on Down! ("You're the next contestant on the Price is Right")
-Constantine
Oh one more thing, take advantage of our after hours special!!! My colleagues are really cool....
-Constantine
How about a Subtalkers contest .... how many of the NYC trolleys & subways can you ride. A car out of the barn on static display counts. I did 10 last Fall. Ridding the same car twice only counts as one.
And we need a prize or two for the winner. Plus, if you arrive by mass transit there should be a special prize ? I'll kick in a 50 cent tour of a local bus depot.
Mr t__:^)
Hmmmm..... Creative Thinking!!!!
-Constantine
I may try to get there on one of those days, all depends on the rest of my commitments. I was running the R4/R7 combo up at Seashore yesterday - they respond to controls much better than Boston equipment, though it's hard to judge the electric release without a cylinder gauge. {Boston's show brake pipe and cylinder, these show reservoir and brake pipe)
Correction: the gauge on R1-9 cars shows main res and
equalizing res, not brake pipe.
I'd like to meet you, Gerry! Hope you can make it....
Hang around after hours, and who knows maybe one of the gents will let you operate my favorite 1930s car, R9 1689. Get a feel of 1689, and you be the judge how she operates compared to the R4/R7 combo.
Cheers!
Constantine
Now I really wish I were still living back east. I guarantee you that if I were, I would be at Shore Line each and every weekend.
Speaking of the Hi-V/Lo-V lashup, I presume they're coupled only mechanically, not electrically, a la 1689 and 5466, since they're not compatible.
I'll let Jeff or others to answer specifically, anyhow last Fall I didn't notice them fighting with each other going down the track.
Mr t__:^)
I as well wish that i still lived in N.Y.as i would also attend the shore line work force,i grew up around the Myrtle Ave el and have some of the traction stuff in my blood,i do keep in touch with a close friend who works for the T.A. Ernie Snow who is in the signial dept.he gives me info from time to time and kinda keeps me informed of the latest news,out here in Ore,things are going light rail as Portland has now started on the light rail to the Portland airport...dubbed air max....we have the deepest subway station ( 1 ) under the zoo, heading west to Hillsboro and a soon to start north south line which went down with the voters (sounds like N.Y.tatics) anyway, but it's not N.Y. AND I WISH i was still there.maby someday.....
Right you are Steve! They are not electrically compatible since one car is towed dead half the time. I believe that the air brakes are compatible though....
The same applies to the Lo-V/Hi-V lashup.
-Constantine
That's correct. The Lo-Vs were given H2 heads during their service
to the TA in 1979 for the diamond jubilee train. This makes
them couple-able to the R-9 mechanically and pneumatically.
Electrically the signals are compatible (both are GE PC-10/15
style groups) but if I wanted to M-U I'd have to kluge in some
canon plugs from the main junction boxes on the R-9, or hang
a bogus electric portion on the Lo-V.
Did you say H2??? I always thought that the Lo-Vs had H2. I guess maybe they had an F type coupler. Don't make any modifications to the Lo-V or R9 if it's not representative of that car, or if it's difficult. Besides the trolley line couldn't take the power of two cars MU'ed could it?
Of course, I could argue for you to make modifications since car G was modified to run with 1227.
By the way, what does an H2A coupler have that an H2C doesn't have (or vice versa)?
-Constantine
Eye think one of the best parts of this comming weekend at Branford is going to be the lash-ups of multi subway cars. Since they don't have duplicates, this is a close as they can come to representing NYC multi-car train sets rolling down the line.
To me a single trolley is proto-type, but not a single subway, AND if there are enough folks so that some of them are hanging on, so much the better ... all we still need is a panhandler ... ah I've just thought of something I can do to HELP ... just kidding.
Seriously, I have the number from "In the Loop" & will call when I know exactly who's comming with me Sat.
Mr t__:^)
I brought up that same question some time ago. As I understand, the H2 head is the same. The rest of the connections (brakes, electric portions) are different.
The head itself is the same (H2) and the tappet valves are
in the same position, so if you couple an H2A to an H2C it
will work mechanically. H2A was designed for AMUE braking with
the top tappet being reservoir (85-100 psi) and the bottom one
brake pipe (0-70 psi). H2C was designed for SMEE with top side
being straight air (0-85 psi) and bottom side brake pipe (0/110).
If you hook these two incompatible brake systems together and
forget to close off the angle cocks (HHH) then various bad things
might happen.
As far as the coupler itself, the differences between the A and C
varieties are to allow for the air uncoupling/electric portion
advance feature to work correctly with the different pressures
and "logic" of the two systems.
In an almost tongue-in-cheek reporting job, in today's Daily News, we learn that staff writer Micheal Daly took a trip aboard the #1 posing as a dead man. Aside from the unfortunately topical subject what the heck was he trying to prove -- that people wouldn't notice a dead man riding? That was proved yesterday when the headlines declared Mr. Juan Doe a corpse for at least five hours. I guess Mr. Daly wanted to get paid for literally "sleeping on the job"?
Doug aka BMTman
When you think about it, I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to mistake a living man for someone dead, since many homeless people sleep on the trains, and sometimes it's hard to tell whether they are breathing or not. As for the reporter, I agree with you Doug....we don't need to prove things twice. Was the Daily News the one that had the #1 on Tuesday's cover with the story about the dead man, or was that the Post? The two papers are so similar with their one story covers and eigth grade reading levels that I get them confused. -Nick
Well, Nick, the culprit was the NY Daily News (once a solid journal of reporting) that if I would use to wrap fish, would turn the contants to cyanide!
It is hard to tell the difference between the Post and the News, leaving only the New York Times and Newsday as the bastions of reasonable journalism. But the paper I REALLY miss was the old New York Newsday (remember that, where there was coverage of not only Long Island, but the five boroughs as well?)
NY Times and reasonable journalism in one sentence? Wow, pass what you're smoking over here, I need it too. =)
But seriously - if we didn't have the Post, who would we rely on for those great headlines like "Headless Man Found In Top Less Bar"????
One thing I don't think he know what car he was in. I belive he claimed to be in car No.2641 but one small problem that car is not on the IRT. Also he really didn't do a good job of being dead. I wonder how long he would have lasted dressed up nice if he did this on a No.2 train in the last car.
I work nights and have had to ride the subway in the wee hours. Many homeless cover their faces with a blanket or jacker or sweater, etc and completely stretch out over an entire section of seats. I am not a homeless advocate but imagine if you will, being woken up continually and no real sound sleep for an 8 hour stretch, I imagine that you or I would be "dead" (sound asleep- a deep sleep). Due to work schedules I have at times been up 36-40 hours(Due to NJT schedules and missing the last train of the night and/or not having time at home if I did go home) and when I did hit the sack I was out almost instantly!
How come the L train Conductors are in the 6 car(Manhattan-bound) of an 8 car train?
On the R40/42 fleet,the master door control panel is in the #2 cab.As a result,on an 8 car train,you have to operate 5 cars north,3 cars south.So when the train was going towards 8ave,the conductor was operating from the 5th and 6th cars depending on what side the station was on.When the train returns to Canarsie,the Conductor operates in the third and fourth cars depending on the station.If you had master door control panels in the #1 cab(where the train operator operates from),the operation would be 4 cars north, 4 cars south.BTW,northbound is 8 ave bound,Canarsie is southbound. Also, on a 4 car train of R40/42s,you operate 3 cars south 1 car north(southbound). When you go northbound,you change operating positions and operate 3 cars north,1 car south.This ensures the conductor is in the closest possible position to the middle of the train.
When the R-42s first appeared on the Canarsie in 1969, they ran in 6-car trains - at least on Saturdays, as far as I can recall. I remember watching the conductor do his stuff in the third car at 6th Ave., Union Square, and Bedford Ave.
Back in the days when the 14 St Canarsie Line ran AB standards (I guess you couln't call it the 'L' line then), the conductor was either in the 2nd or 5th car (of a six car train). The standards were set up in 3 car sets, with the conductor's controls in the middle car of the set.
Anybody know where the conductors worked in the multi-section cars (which were used on the line from about 1938-1956)?
-- Ed Sachs
We saw and rode on an 8-car R40M on the "LL" on August 4,1969, a Monday.
Unit #s: (current and former numbering), these were wearing their
former numbers at the time.
4501-4500 (ex 4301-4300); 4492-4493 (ex 4292-4293), 4488-4489 (ex 4288-4289), 4496-4497 (ex 4296-4297).
It was 96 degrees outside and at least 25 degrees less than that inside of #4501 (ex 4301). Next May would find this car laid up in CI Body Shoppe with a huge dent in her sign-side corner and a broken bonnet. They did a good job (as usual) in restoring her to health, and she is still going strong on the Bay Pkwy-Chambers "M" to this very day.
Wayne
I won't argue with your observation of the 8-car train. As I've said before, I rode the Canarsie line on Saturdays, so it's possible that LL trains of R-40Ms or R-42s were run in 6-car consists. Then again, it's been 30 years. (Where have the years gone?) For some reason, I seem to recall that trains of R-7/9s were 7 cars long on the LL. Every train of BMT standards I ever saw over there was 6 cars long.
After walking some distance on the franlin av shuttle, it looks like they did a good airy- new - job, but I can't stop wondering...
wasn't it supposed to be 2-track sytem (for faster rush- hour service)?
They didn't remove any of the concrete stanchions and bride supports, so, Dean St. May still be there (since its resting on a steel stanchion (as far as I remember)
what do you say?
The line will be two tracks from prospect Park to park Place. From there to Franklin will be one track.
confirmed. walked a little farther. Also.... what baout the concret work? they seem to be keeping that.
Singling tracking to Park Place is an extension of the previous single track. Saved some money on the Altantic Ave bridge through the old Dean Street stop.
In transferring from the uptown 1 train to the shuttle at Times Square, I noticed a very faded sign hanging from the ceiling that said...CANARSIE. It was on the the right side of a large sign that probably contined more sign destinations, but were completely obliterated. What would a sign mentioning Canarsie be doing at Times Square? I should also mention that the sign was facing the BMT stairways to the TS station.
Carl M.
Probably suggesting that for Canarsie service you should take the B'way trains to Union Sq and transfer.
Will the R-62's be going in for a rebuilding soon, or is the TA going to wait for the fleet of R142's to come in first? I assume that the R62's will receive electronic signs like the R46 did at their rebuild, plus window scratch protectors that are on the R110 and the R142 will also be added too. But I wonder, will other changes be made too? I wonder if the TA will add computerized announcements and next stop indicator signs as well, since these trains will be around for at least another 20 years,and all the new IRT cars will have them too. If anyone has any information, it would be appreciated. -Nick
My thoughts are that because of the SMS programs, there is no need for the TA to, in the future, send cars out of service for long periods to be upgraded or stripped and rebuilt, except for collisions and damaged cars. It is easier for all when a car is main shopped, jacked with truck changes on a regular basis than it is to let the switch boxes burn up, as the TA prided themselves back in the early 1980s, then decide what to do next, as was the case of the notorious R-33 car 9000, one car they finally got down good. Anticipating when a componant fails and replacing parts before the breakdown is the equivalent of changing the motor oil on your car, sacrificing the 10 minute Jiffy Lube for the 1 month engine change. If anyone sees the need for the TA to send cars out for overhauls in the future, please post.
I got a good laugh out of a new sign posted in the subway asking N and R riders to avoid transfering trains at Times Square until --get this-- 2003!!!!!
Out of all those service diversion signs, this has to be the best!
HAHA---If the MTA runs out of funding for the Times Square Project, we may see signs advising riders to avoid that station for a whole lot longer. Times Square might even be a Disney theme park by then.
That reminds me of the sign at Grand Central that says the bathrooms willbe closed for 3 years.
Mike
That reminds me of the sign that says please stand near platform edge to see the rats.
My daughter would have liked to see that one :-) We saw enough of the durned critters Monday night, both the four- and two-legged varieties, to suit her for a lifetime!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wanted to know if there are a particular series of MetroCard holders as I have one that has an aerial view of the Park Slope neighborhood with the NYC skyline in the background. Are there any other scenes of the city on other card holders, or is that the only one.
Here's a relevant story: Turns out I got my card holder from a TA worker who was suppose to be giving them out to commuters who made a purchase from the MVM's over at Jay Street. I already had some bucks on my card from earlier last week so I had no need to use the machine. But, thanks to nerves of steel, I asked for a card holder anyhow and surprisingly was handed one without fanfair. I'm not sure how much they go for at the Transit Museum, but I'm sure the MTA ain't gonna hurt from my freebie!
Doug aka BMTman
They're a dollar a piece and a new series has just come out. So there's now more than five available. I don't have most of them because I don't have easy access to where they're sold. Anybody want to trade three of my MCs for each holder ? If you do e-mail me off-line.
Mr t__:^)
Doug,
Check this site: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/metrocard/protector.htm
for more information about the new set of 7 holders (which are difficult to get - although I have 6 of the 7).
Also check out a posting dated 6/9 by Todd Glickman entitiled "New Metrocards" for information about the nect set of 4 holders in the "Museum Pieces" series and the upcoming 46 holder set "Great Subways".
According to the info in that posting the entire boxed set of 46 will be available in August.
Also note: The MTA raised the price from $1.00 to $1.50 starting with the Museum Pieces series. (They know a cash cow when they see one).
Somewhat off topic, but thought our hometeam could use alittle encouragement in their battle against the Spurs.
Besides there IS something about our basketball team that is topical here: the new team logo is very much based on the old subway token design. Has anyone else noticed this oddity?
Doug aka BMTman
"Besides there IS something about our basketball team that is topical here: the new team logo is very much based on the old subway token design. Has anyone else noticed this oddity?"
YES!!!! I thought I was the only one.
Jack, wouldn't it be interesting to find out that the same group/individual responsible for the NYCTA token design came up with the new Knicks logo? Probably not, but surely whomever did that design was greatly influenced by the subway token image.
Doug aka BMTman
P.S. San Antonio just got lucky! The best is yet to come!
Yeah right, San Antonio has the broom out!
What I want to know is how long will it take until Latrell "chokes" again!
He says he is past that; only time will tell. To be honest, I wouldn't pay a dime for a Knicks ticket with that jerk playing! Why would you support a team that "condones" this players behavior?
Get real, this is what is wrong with American today. Why do we support losers like Spreewell?
Jim K.
Chicago
I'm sure the Knicks don't condone Sprewell's actions. He is on the team because he can DELIVER. Plain and simple.
Yes, I agree he did a regrettable act, but he paid for it and has been "clean" ever since. Why can't you give him the benefit of the doubt?
Besides, he is just one man on a whole team. Don't knock the team for one guys indisgressions!
Doug aka BMTman
[Yes, I agree he did a regrettable act, but he paid for it and has been "clean" ever since.]
As far as I'm concerned there is way too much "forgetting" things in this society. At some point, murder will besomething you can get away with.
BTW, I'm not upset that the Bull's aren't in the playoffs this year. They had their day in the limelinght! Who knows, next year Phil Jackson may bring a winning season to LA. Who wants to wager that Jordan comes out of retirement a third time?
And as Thruston would put it: [disclaimer: I am not, nor was I ever, a basketball fan, not even after moving to Chi-town].
Jim K.
Chicago.
You mean they play basketball anywhere else than in the ACC?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse (go Blue Devils!)
Personal responsibility for one's own transgressions is sorely lacking and is the most important lesson that conservatism can teach us. Hey, Jim How's my favorite part of the "L" doing.
What does conservatism have to do with personal responsibility? You don't have to be brain dead^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcoservative in order to be responsible for one's transgressions.
DRPA has published its request for higher fares for PATCO in the legal notices section of the local (Phila) papers. The proposal is a 3-year phased increase. Currently, the highest fare, end to end, would rise from $1.60 to $1.85 next year, $2 in 2001 and $2.15 in 2002. (Still a bargain, by the way - compare it to SEPTA's Regional Rail fares!)
Hearings are to take place but it appears that this may be a done deal. Of course, keep in mind that PATCO fares haven't changed since 1983.
Seventeen years between fare increases!!! Wow!!! If the whole transit industry was like that.......
Shame that the boys at SEPTA never learned how PATCO did it.
One easy solution - allow the 20th (soon to be the 21st) century to enter into operational practices. This is not only a shot at the union but at management as well.
I spotted the R110A running "Light" (but with car body lights off) at Seventh Ave. local track on the F line going toward Manhattan Monday 6/14 just after 12 noon. Presumably it was being transfered from CIYD to a Bronx IRT facility.
Confirmed. The entire 10 car train made it's way home to 239th Street Yard on Monday Afternoon, about 3PM passing Jackson Av subway station.
I wonder why it went all the way down to to Coney Island in the first place??? 207th St Shop handled work previously, as I recall.
-Constantine
well it was definitly at Coney Island because i saw it fromt he Belt Parkway during the past 2 or so weeks. What were they doing to it there?
I have no clue. Anyone out here know?
-Constantine
I posted about two weeks ago about it having a fire at Simpson Street on the 2 because of a bad door engine. But nobody out there wanted to believe me.
Don't feel bad. We're all sorry, RIGHT EVERYBODY!? I heard the train was at C.I for brake work before returning to passenger service.
Maybe, and I'm certainly not going to doubt you. The train appeared to be the same as always. Then again, I don't have the full story...
Who knows if the train is going to be on the road anytime soon.
I'd certainly like to know.
-Constantine
B/D/Q service suffered a severe service disruption. I do not have the exact location, but it was near Grand St. Brooklyn bound. I heard that a D train's third rail shoes wound up on top of the third rail protection board. This problem had a ripple effect on the entire IND & Brooklyn BMT due to rerouted trains. For example at least one F train, wound up via 8th Ave all the way from 5 Ave/53 St. to Jay St. Anyone have more info?
Brighton D trains turned at Whitehall to go back south. Q service from 21 st went via Broadway to the brighton. B service turned at Pacific st.
There were F trains sent crosstown too.
Bronx trains turned at 34/6 or 2nd Av.
I wonder did he swing around that curve too fast? The "Q" I was on a few weeks ago went through it at about 30. Those are 60 foot cars.
Depending on which side the 3d rail is on, he could have leaned over too far with the 75-foot cars..
Wayne
Even though that curve is 20mph and on an upgrade,you should stick to 20mph or less.It is a very sharp curve.
With an R68, doing 20 around that curve, that is nothing short of a miracle.
Yeah, those R-68s would be huffing and puffing all the way.
I'll bet that rerouted Q ran express along Broadway.
Dear Steve:
I was on a rerouted D train that evening to Jay Street. All B,
D and Q trains ran downtown on the F line to Brooklyn. Northbound
B, D and Q service was normal. I think some Q trains ran on the
Broadway Line from Lexington Avenue-63rd Street to DeKalb Avenue, and extended to Coney Island and the M was extended to Coney Island
on the West End Line.
James Li
So, the D paid a visit to its old stompimg ground. I rode on a D train on the Culver once, on April 30, 1967, before it was rerouted to the Brighton line that November.
I'll bet the Rutgers tunnel didn't even break a sweat that evening.
Since I moved to the Ditmas neighborhood, I've been rerouted countless times to the F. Sometimes I wait it out. Sometimes I take it. On this day I took it. When they backed a B and then a Q out I knew it would be a long wait.
Too bad they didn't build that Rutgers to DeKalb connection. In that case, the re-route would put you right back on the Brighton. I'd bet that in a pinch, they could run the F via the A line to Jay Street, and the B/D/Q via Rutgers tunnel, and get almost all the trains through -- at the cost of isolating Grand Street and York Street.
As I said, the window for this connection opens soon and then closes -- before the Walenetas developments puts thousands of more affluent people with a sense of entitlement in the way, and while the A/B tracks are closed down for Rehab. Anyone thinking about this? Anyone?
[As I said, the window for this connection (Rutgers-DeKalb) opens soon and then closes -- before the Walenetas developments puts thousands of more affluent people with a sense of entitlement in the way]
What's the Walenetas development? And is it something actually likely to occur, or just one of these "coming soon" things that never takes place?
(Is the Walentas development something "coming soon" or real).
Here in Brooklyn, in the era of virtual reality, we have virtual development -- a virtual movie studio in the Navy Yard, a virtual entertainment complex on the Gowanus, a virtual Sportsplex at Coney Island, and virtual shopping centers in the hole at Atlantic Avenue and at Spring Creek. "The community" -- no one I know, but I guess we are not "the community" is opposed to them all. Will any happen? It depends on if the lawsuits are settled before interest rates rise, the boom ends, and financing disappears.
The only good news: Brooklyn neighbors are against the Fulton Ferry project, but Walentas is going to the state for an over-ride, and Pataki seems interested in screwing Brooklyn any way he can. In this case, however, since the development would actually be good for Brooklyn no matter what people say, Pataki would accidently help the borough by ramming it through. Just don't tell him.
[re Brooklyn's "virtual development"]
Brooklyn may not be the only borough with this sort of stuff. Consider the Queens West development in Long Island City. It was supposed to be this huge mixed-use development consisting of something like 15 to 20 buildings and encompassing 100 or more acres. One apartment tower was built, and the old LIRR carfloat terminal was spruced up and renamed Gantry Park. All this was finished over a year ago. As far as I know, there's been zero in-the-ground work since then.
I finally got to read the official report about the 6/16 incident. As I suspected, a protection board broke at a joint, providing the contact shoes with a 'ramp' to the top of the protection board. According to the report, the train made a normal station stop but had no 3rd rail power to leave. It seems that 10 people claimed illness during the incident (probably after consulting with their lawyers).
The protection boards were cut with chain saws, allowing the contact shoes to fall back to the 3rd rail. When power was restored, the train was able to proceed normally.
I don't know about illness, but my sister was aboard the train, and said one woman was very upset that she'd miss "The Lakers game". How long was this delay, anyway?
If it got uncomfortably hot, maybe those people claimed they had heat prostration. At what point in the station did that protection board break? Was the entire train without power?
According to the report, the protection broke just north of the Grand Street station. The initial train involved had all contact shoes ride up on the protection boards. Even though it coasted to a normal 10-car stop,, it was completely devoid of 600 volt power. During the removal of the protection boards, 3rd rail voltage had to be removed.
Reminds me of the time that New Jersey Transit and the NJ Insurance Department staged a fake bus accident in Newark a few years back.
They put hidden cameras and about four or five "passengers" aboard a city bus and staged a minor fender bender. They called in the "accident" to the NJT dispatch and then to the Newark city police. When the police arrived about 10-15 minutes later, the bus miraculously had more than 20 passengers claiming various degrees of injuries. Seems that plenty of people monitor the scanners looking for some easy cash.
So what else is new?
Laker's game? The Laker's were dispatched from the playoff's at least a week before.The sick passengers were on the train that was stuck behind the train north of the Grand st. station.
It's actually two curves - going southbound, the first one is the sharpest, and you are correct - the speed should be 20, 25 max. The second curve is only about 15 degrees. I have been aboard a few "Q"s (southbound) and a "B" (northbound) where the motorman took it a little faster than perhaps he should have, but no harm done. These were all R40 cars.
Trains will tilt up on the left side rounding this curve, and this is the side I believe the third rail is on at this point. Still, I can't think of how he could have gotten his shoes on top of the third rail unless he tilted too far going round the curve.
Wayne
Because of this, those no good TSSs will be out with the radar guns!
which curve are we talking about?
For shame, Wayne!! The contact shoes are mounted on the trucks. The car body sits on the trucks too and tilts only as far as the side bearings allows it to. On going around a curve, the 'tilt' occurs between the car body and the trucks ONLY. For what you suggest to happen, the wheels would have to leave the rails.
What usually happens in a case like this is the shoes ride up on the protection board for one of two reasons:
A) A protection board falls causing the contact shoe to ride up on it.
B) A mis-adjusted contact shoe (too high).
C) A combination of the above.
Shoe beam incidents of this type are usually taken very seriously and investigated quite thoroughly. As a matter of fact, this afternoon,I saw the General Superintendent of Coney Island Shop and he didn't mention the incident at all. Knowing him as I do, this would indicate that the train was not at fault, meaning that the 3rd rail protection board was the culprit.......
Maybe I'm wrong but......under the third rail are the insulators. The insulators also hold the third rail up. Possible senario: at the beginning of a third rail section, an insulator or two "collapsed?" bringing the protection board down to the height of the first shoe on the train? Eventually all 600' of train would be atop the protection board.
Of course you are absolutely correct. A collapsed insulator could result in essentially the same problem. I was merely trying to explain the most likely cause of the situation.
There is another possible situation that occurs more frequently (that I also omitted in my posting). I have seen several times where one of the older ceramic insulators cracks. Water seeps in and eventually they short to ground. The fireworks show is incredible with sparks and flame sometimes shooting 20 or more feet into the air. Since most yards are fused in excess of 300,000 amps, the entire section of 3rd rail begins to burn and melt it's way through the ballast until power is pulled. I've also seen rotted ties cause the 3rd rail to sag or even tip over.
That brings up something else. In recent years, I've seen ceramic third rail insulators being replaced with fiberglass ones, similar to third rail protection boards being replaced with fiberglass ones since the wood rots quicker due to the water from the air conditioning units dripping out. I am curious as to why ceramic insulators are being used at 50 St./ 8th Ave. lower level E line during the current midnite construction work? Does anybody know if problems were found with the fiberglass insulators?
I have heard of cracked pin-type insulators (those on top of poles) and suspension insulators (those that are linked together on larger power lines) exploding because moisture got inside them.
OK, so I muffed that one. Mechanics has never been my strong suit..:o) but thanks for the information, and education.
Wayne
"Mechanics has never been my strong suit..:o)"
Don't feel bad, Wayne. I have several Car Inspectors with the same problem.
"Mechanics has never been my strong suit..:0)" Quote from Wayne
"Don't feel bad, Wayne. I have several Car Inspectors with the same problem." quote from Steve
A Chief Mechanical Officer who couldn't turn a wrench. Quote about A.R. Goodlatte.
I've had to deal with people who didn't know how to use a voltmeter. Duh!
I always found Dick Goodlatte to be a gentleman and a professional.
OY We are in serious trouble :o>. I will stick to door opening sides, marker boards, door chimes, and points of interest, as the C/R examination looms large this Saturday!
Wayne
BTW, one D train, because of congestion on Sixth Ave., got sent down Eighth Ave. W4th tower did not bring him to the F at W4, and I saw that train at Chambers St. Presumably, Jay St. crossed him over to go via the F from there.
I was listing to the B1 Channel off duty and it sounded like one big mess. I think thare was also a 12-2 on the F Line near 15 St.- Prospect PK at the same time. Over on the A Divison there was a train with smoke Issueing at 138 St- Grand Concause. Also a No.6 out of Parkchester BIE in the City Hall loop.
Our tour guide, Peggy Darlington, had something come up that prevents her being available 6/22, so we've moved the "Field Trip - Extra Section" back one week to Tuesday 6/29. I hope that those of you that were planning to join us can still make it !
Plan: Meet at WTC PATH tracks 4/5 at 6 PM (find the big set of escalators in WTC & follow signs to PATH tracks, go to head end). We'll take PATH to Newark & transfer to City Subway #7 line (PCCs). Three photo ops: Beginning, mid-trip (Orange Street), end of line. Return to Newark to start a tour of PATH. Stops at Harrison, Grove, Pavonia, Hoboken, and stations in Manhattan. Trip ends at 33rd. For those who want to leave the tour when we return to Newark & head back to NYC, I estimate the round trip at about two hours.
Cost: Bring lots of dollars, either SBA silver or paper or buy tickets for PATH and City Subway (note if you want a PATH/PCC two ride pass souvenir don't use it the second time, because the machine will keep it). If we didn't get off for photo ops it would be $4 (PATH $2, PCCs $2). Each time we get off the PCCs it'll cost an additional dollar to get back on. Most of the PATH stops will be free off/on, but a few extra dollars in your pocket will avoid a problem on these EXACT FARE lines.
P.S. It's going to be very hard to match/beat the great trip we had Friday 6/4, thanks to Sid and the other Subtalkers I met. The PCCs are in fantastic shape even though they are going to be replaced with new equip. shortly. So this is a splendid chance to ride these 1940s trolleys in real revenue service one last time.
Reservations aren't neccessarly required, but please e-mail me off-line so I have some idea of how many to expect. (Clark@QSBus.com)
Mr t__:^)
I would like to know how the times in which the subway lines
operated in 1948. I have a 1948 map and it just shows the lines
and their terminals, and only the rush hours trains were marked
"Rush hours only". I need the times on these trains:
IRT Division
LEXINGTON AVENUE-JEROME AVENUE EXPRESS
LEXINGTON AVENUE-WHITE PLAINS ROAD EXPRESS
LEXINGTON AVENUE LOCAL
DYRE AVENUE SHUTTLE
7TH AVENUE LOCAL
7TH AVENUE EXPRESS
BROADWAY-7TH AVENUE LOCAL
BROADWAY-7TH AVENUE EXPRESS
ASTORIA LINE
FLUSHING LOCAL/ EXPRESS
42ND STREET SHUTTLE
BOWLING GREEN-SOUTH FERRY SHUTTLE
155TH STREET-167TH STREET SHUTTLE
3RD AVENUE THRU EXPRESS
3RD AVENUE LOCAL/ EXPRESS
3RD AVENUE LOCAL
IND Division
(A) 8TH AVENUE-WASHINGTON HEIGHTS EXPRESS
(AA)8TH AVENUE-WASHINGTON HEIGHTS LOCAL
(BB)6TH AVENUE-WASHINGTON HEIGHTS LOCAL
(CC)8TH AVENUE-CONCOURSE LOCAL
(D) 6TH AVENUE-CONCOURSE EXPRESS
(E) 8TH AVENUE-QUEENS EXPRESS
(F) 6TH AVENUE-QUEENS EXPRESS
(GG)BROOKLYN-QUEENS CROSSTOWN LOCAL
I like to know what were the BMT number markings and the times
they operated for these lines:
BMT Division
BROADWAY-BRIGHTON BEACH EXPRESS VIA BRIDGE
BROADWAY-BRIGHTON BEACH LOCAL VIA TUNNEL
BROADWAY-SEA BEACH EXPRESS VIA BRIDGE
BROADWAY-WEST END EXPRESS VIA BRIDGE
WEST END SHORT LINE VIA NASSAU STREET LOOP
BROADWAY-4TH AVENUE LOCAL VIA TUNNEL
14TH STREET-CANARSIE LOCAL
14TH STREET-FULTON STREET LINE
LEXINGTON AVENUE LINE
FULTON-LEXINGTON AVENUE LINE
FULTON STREET LINE
MYRTLE AVENUE LINE
MYRTLE AVENUE-CHAMBERS STREET LINE
JAMAICA LINE
BROOKLYN-BROADWAY SHORT LINE
FLUSHING LINE
ASTORIA LINE
Were there any express trains on the BMT Eastern Division in 1948?
James Li
I think you may be referring to the Hagstrom maps of which there were three. Each highlighted a specific division. Rush hours is pretty self-explanatory, Mon-Fri from app. 6:30 AM to 9:30 AM, and 4 PM to 7 PM. It's safe to assume that, unless otherwise noted, all routes operated at all times.
The BMT number code was thus:
1. Brighton (local and express)
2. 4th Ave.
3. West End (local and express)
4. Sea Beach
5. Culver
6. 5th Ave. el
7. Franklin Ave.
8. Astoria
9. Flushing
10. Myrtle-Chambers
11. Myrtle Ave. el
12. Lexington Ave. el
13. Fulton St. el
14. Broadway-Brooklyn (aka Broadway Short Line)
15. Jamaica
16. 14th St.-Canarsie
There was also a 14th St.-Fulton St. service which used the multisectional units and carried #13 signs.
I believe Jamaica trains ran express along Broadway in Brooklyn during rush hours in the peak direction.
The Hagstrom's IRT map had footnotes about certain express trains operating to South Ferry during certain hours. Generally, the Bowling green shuttle ran whenever Lexington Ave. expresses continued onto Brooklyn.
Steve: There was one BMT route which never did receive a route number since it started under the BOT and not the BMT. That was the Fulton-Lexington Line which began service after the Fulton Street El was closed west of Rockaway Avenue. Since the only equiptment which could operate there was BU's they did not display a route number. I would have to say though that since it originated on the Fulton St Line it probably would have been a #13 like the 14 St-Fulton St service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Didn't they run the MS (7000 series) cars there as well?
I recall a picture of them rounding the flying curve at Van-Sinderen and Pitkin Ave's.
Wayne
They did run the Multis on the #13 14 St-Fulton St Line but not on the Fulton-Lexington Line. The Lexington Av El between Broadway and Myrtle could only accomadate nine foot wide cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, my 1948 Hagstrom's map lists that route. As you pointed out, since the BU cars did not have route signs, the Fulton-Lexington line never had a number marking associated with it. Perhaps it may have been lumped in with the #12. Supposedly, the 14th St.-Fulton St. route was given a #17 marking, but the multisectionals which operated on it carried #13 signs.
The only place the 14th Street-Fulton Street service ever had a "17" as its route number has been on the Transit Listserv, the Urban Transportation site on Usenet, and here. It was always "13" on the BMT.
The service started while the BMT was still running its lines and while the BMT was still under the jurisdiction of the State's Public Service Commission. It was the PSC that approved the BMT's 16-number system around 1925 or so and the BMT would have gotten into a lot of trouble with the Albany bureaucrats if they did something without permission.
I've never been able to trace down where the '17' story started. Perhaps if someone were to show me a photo from the Brooklyn Eagle taken on the first day of service with a big '17' on the front or if someone could produce a front sign curtain from the Multi-Sections that had a '17,' I might be convinced, but I'd also want to see the PSC approval.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Is there anyone out there who knows how to get a copy of the 1948 Hagstrom Map? I collect old maps of subways systems if I can get my hands on any, and it was in 1947 or 1948 that I really got bugged on the subway system.
Fred,
There is a 1950's vintage Hagstrom Subway Map being offered right now in eBay Auction # 123807087. Check it out!
Karl B
Karl: Thanks for your response. Not meaning to sound stupid, but how do I access eBay Auction? Please let me know.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=123807087
(cut and paste into your browser) should take you directly to the item.
Fred,
Go to http://pages.ebay.com/aw/search.html
Put 123807087 in the item # on the search page
Karl B
In 1948, there was also express service on 14th Street for Canarsie and Fulton St. trains. And Myrtle-Chambers ran express on Broadway with the Jamaica trains; the next stop after Essex was Myrtle/Broadway. Jamaica service continued as express to Eastern Parkway, then all stops to 168th Street.
Don't forget that in 1948 there was still a rush hour on Saturday morning--that wasn't discontinued until sometime in the early 1950s, possibly before the TA was forced on the City.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
(with fingers crossed that the computer is working o.k. again--I've missed Subtalk for almost a week)
[ Don't forget that in 1948 there was still a rush hour on Saturday morning--that wasn't discontinued until sometime in the
early 1950s, possibly before the TA was forced on the City. ]
The reason for the end of Saturday AM rush hour service (in most cities, not just New York) was a change in "normal working hours" which occurred right after WW-II. Prior to WW-II, most businesses operated on a 5 1/2 day per week schedule (half day on Saturday). After WW-II, the Saturday morning hours were dropped, and hence many fewer commuters and no Saturday AM rush.
Ed Sachs or anyone else, I have another mind twister for someone to answer. When I was seven or eight I used to live in the Queensbridge Housing Apartments just overloking where the 4th Avenue local came out of the tunnel on its way to Queens Plaza, the terminal stop and the only stop above ground. (the GG in reverse). However, on numerous occasions I saw a #4 train head there. My impression was that the Sea Beach ran from 42th Street and Times Square to Coney Island. Is there anyone out there than can tell me if the Sea Beach actually made such a route into Queens, or where just trains diverted to handle the rush traffic in the early evening?
< Don't forget that in 1948 there was still a rush hour on Saturday morning--that wasn't discontinued until sometime in the early 1950s, possibly before the TA was forced on the City >
The universal 5-day work week was another blow to transit systems nationwide. In addition to other ridership drops, those who took transit to work were now making 2 fewer trips per week.
This came at an especially bad time for transit operators' viability.
Dear Steve B.:
How did the BMT Culver trains operate in those days. There was NO
BMT Culver Line information in the 1948 map. What about that Franklin
Avenue line? How did that line operate in those days?
James S. Li
Culver service in 1948 was as follows:
Local from Coney Island via Fourth Avenue Local and Montague Street Tunnel to Chambers Street: All times except rush hours M-F and Saturday AM.
Express from Kings Highway via Fourth Avenue Express and Manhattan Bridge (H Tracks) thru Nassau Loop and then via Tunnel back to Fourth Avenue Express and Culver: Rush hours (Skipped DeKalb in both directions)
Local from Ninth Avenue to Coney Island (rush hours only), using elevated gate cars.
At the start and end of rush hours, a local might leave Chambers and go over the Bridge to Brooklyn and an express might go to or from Coney Island.
One curious Culver phenomenon was that in the 1930s (possibly into the 1940s, but I never saw it operate) rush hour Culver expresses used the center track from Ninth Avenue to Kings Highway in the direction opposite to rush hour travel--TO Kings Highway in the morning rush and FROM Kings Highway in the evening rush. I was told that the service ran that way to get as many subway trains back to Manhattan as fast as possible. It probably worked well so long as the full elevated service was running to Fifth Avenue; the el trains in the late 1940s were a survival of the mixed service days.
That was probably the only place in the system where a rush-hour express ran against rush-hour traffic.
What a change to see the TA's Nassau Street service from southern Brooklyn reduced to rush hours only. Has there been such a loss of Wall Street employment that the service had to be cut so?
I'm not at certain about Franklin service in 1948, but as I recall it, this is how it operated.
Weekday Franklin Avenue service was generally shuttle from Propsect Park to Franklin Avenue (using both tracks at Prospect Park) except during rush hours, when it ran local to Brighton Beach.
On Sundays and holidays, Franklin service ran express to Coney Island (using Tracks C and D at Stillwell, later 3 and 4).
During the summer, on Sundays and holidays (Memorial, Independence, Labor Days), Franklin service ran express on the Brighton, through Stillwell, express on the Sea Beach and Fourth Avenue to Chambers Street (stops were Stillwell/59th/36th/Pacific/Chambers).
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Service to the Nassau St. line is only really needed during rush hours for Wall St. workers. It's not that the area has lost so many jobs, its that the area is really one-dimensional, which rush hour service on the M provides.
James is absolutely right: the 1948 Hagstrom's BMT map has no Culver line information at all. A very glaring oversight, to say the least.
Through well-meaning friends I have obtained two copies of the commercial trolley video "The Singing Wire" vol. 1, Traction in Pennsylvania produced by Herron in 1990, and would like to trade it for another video.
The tape which has been viewed no more than twice, shows a number of systems, including West Penn, Reading, Red Arrow, Philly and Pittsburgh lines among others. It is virtually all in color and runs somewhere close to an hour. Tape is defect-free as far as I can tell and I will trade as is for the best offer of other trolley videos I receive by June 20.
I am confused. Which trains travel over the Manhattan bridge? My subway map has no N trains of the Manhattan bridge, but last time I was under the trestle in Chinatown I thought I saw N trains going over the bridge.
If the N does travel over Manhattan bridge, which trains can I get and where do I get them?
A few weeks ago, there was a weekend diversion of the N over the bridge. That's probably what you saw.
How?! It couldn't be that they've replaced the track in the former Broadway Canal Street station Manhattan Bridge approach, could they have?!! (I know, the N train had probably diverted at 34th Street, right?)
There is a pretty new roadbed in Canal st lower level on one of the tracks.
When the N goes over the Manhattan bridge,it operates via the 6 ave line from Grand st to 21st in Queens.It operates normal from Coney Island to south of DeKalb ave where it enters the station against the wall and continues via the bridge.This occurs because of massive delays or Capital construction.
The way I recall them running it, it went NORTHBOUND on the 6th Ave line to 21st, and SOUTHBOUND via B'way.
-Hank
Dropped by the Red Caboose today. In the display case just to the left of the door downstairs, I saw a painted 'N' gauge set of 2 R46 cars. Front sign was a pink F, car numbers were not really legible. There was also an unpainted (brass) model. $395 for the 2 car set. They apparently are only taking reservations.
Images Replicas is making the R46 models.
--Mark
Making or importing?
Phil Hom
ERA3620
I had mentioned a while ago possibly charting the Broad Street museum
cars for a run, but it looks like it can't happen. Septa tells me
each car (3 total) is in need of ~$10,000 work, and unless someone
at City Hall gets excited about it, the repairs won't take place.
Sad.
-Lee
I understand that Bergen Street Interlocking on IND can only be used for straight iron moves. NYCT wants to replace Bergen Street Interlocking with a totally vital processor interlocking and has been asking for quotes from Alstom and Union Switch & Signal.
Can anyone confirm the straight iron moves are being used only at Bergen Street?
Yes, the system is still being repaired after the fire. They just fixed it enough that regular service could run, but someone had said that it would take a long time to cmpletely fix the interlocking.
what are "straight iron" moves?
subfan
Straight iron moves are movements through track switches in the straight or normal direction only. The switch points would be blocked and clamped.
Yes Dave, The interlocking is one in name only. The signals are all on auomatic. Tracks three and four from Bergen to Fourth Av. are out of service until the interlocking is brought back on line.
The Last Lex left Eastern Parkway at 9PM on Oct.13th,1950 for the final trip to Bridge-Jay St and return. The six car train was made up of open platform gate cars and was packed with passengers. The cars in the train were 1349, 1398, 1375, 1379, 1367 and 1395. Normal non-rush-hour service was maintained up until the the operation of the Last Lex which was the final train on the line.
Karl B
1349 is over at Branford, Karl. A piece of history indeed! Did you say the "Last Lex"? You had me going there for a moment as I thought East Side service was going out the door....
-Constantine
Stef,
That's what they called it, Honest! They glued paper notices on the glass of one window on each side of every gate car about a month before the actual event. I wish I could find the rest of my notes because several of the cars had been previously painted green but until I find those notes I don't remember which ones. I'll find them eventually because I never throw anything away.
Karl B
I see. Well, keep it up the historical stuff and let me know what else you find.
Speaking of the Lex, was this service run all the way up to 168th St or was it shortlined? I read somewhere that service operated to Eastern Pky before heading back towards Bridge/Jay St or Park Row.
-Constantine
I can only speak of the 1943-1950 time period. During non-rush hour times the eastern point was Eastern Parkway. During rush hours service was extended to 111th St. Each rush hour started with 2 two car trains and then two three car trains. The following trains were all five cars. They would end with five car trains being reduced to three. 111th St was a fascinating place to be during the make-up to five or the reduction to three. There were always a dozen or more cars laid-up at 111th St during non-rush hours. The cars were 600's,900's,1200's and 1400's. They never mixed the 1300's with the others. I was there one evening when a six car set of 1300's came in and all six cars went back west carrying Eastern Parkway signage during the period they had been reducing five car trains to three. I really puzzled over that one. It had been my observation that the 1300's were mostly used on the trains to Grant Ave and normally did not get to 111th St. I felt that 111th St was a very busy and important terminal during rush-hour. I often wondered where all the extra gatemen came from at the beginning of rush-hour and where did they all go at the end of rush-hour. After all a five-car train would need a five man crew but a three-car train only needed a three man crew. Oct 13th,1950 ended this operation. It also ended any gate train service east of EP on the Jamaica Line. I passed 111th St on a Standard early the next week and the lay-up track was completely empty. I felt very sad because I had seen an era end. I would never see a gate train go by my house on Crescent St again.
Karl B
That's tough. History occurs only once, and it's possible to miss some major event. The Jamaica El has a lot of history there. Gate Cars are really cool, and it's amazing how 111th St was reduced in importance.
Speaking of which, the last of the Fulton El is to be razed at Atlantic Av shortly. The TA wants to simplify and only have a two track Canarsie Line. Here today, gone tomorrow. A real shame indeed.
I can only speak of the 1943-1950 time period. During non-rush hour times the eastern point was Eastern Parkway. During rush hours service was extended to 111th St. Each rush hour started with 2 two car trains and then 2 three car trains. The following trains were all five cars. They would end with five car trains being reduced to three. 111th St was a fascinating place to be during the make-up to five or the reduction to three. There were always a dozen or more cars laid-up at 111th St during non-rush hours. The cars were 600's,900's,1200's and 1400's. They never mixed the 1300's with the others. I was there one evening when a six car set of 1300's came in and all six cars went back west carrying Eastern Parkway signage during the period they had been reducing five car trains to three. I really puzzled over that one. It had been my observation that the 1300's were mostly used on the trains to Grant Ave and normally did not get to 111th St. I felt that 111th St was a very busy and important terminal during rush-hour. I often wondered where all the extra gatemen came from at the beginning of rush-hour and where did they all go at the end of rush-hour. After all a five-car train would need a five man crew but a three-car train only needed a three man crew. Oct 13th,1950 ended this operation. It also ended any gate train service east of EP on the Jamaica Line. I passed 111th St on a Standard early the next week and the lay-up track was completely empty. I felt very sad because I had seen an era end. I would never see a gate train go by my house on Crescent St again.
Karl B
Please insure that this post is saved in our historical information about the Lexington Ave El.
Um, we don't actually have any historical information about the Lex El. The old BMT els are not really represented on this site.. anyone want to take that on as a project?
-Dave
I saw a 1910 publication on ebay about the Brooklyn Els which featured a picture of Williamsburg Plaza junction on the cover.
However, I did not get the winning bid on that item.
I have an image of the document. May be that document could provide us with some (possibly non-copyrighted) material concerning the early days of the Brooklyn Els. I am sure that there are very few people left that remember the Fulton (on Fulton Ave), 5th and 3rd Ave Lines.
The Brooklyn Ferry terminals were an important part of the early El system also.
If it was published in 1910 the copyright has (probably) expired. There's lots of stuff out there that has expired that could be used on the site but it's a matter of getting it. A lot of it's on microfilm which is extremely hard to use (in the sense of getting an OCR of it) or fragile and not available for scanning, or simply in a non-lending library like the NYPL.
The maximum term for copyrights used to be 56 years (28 years and a 28 year renewal).
The Copyright Act of 1976, as amended June 26, 1992, and October 27, 1998, enormously extended copyright protection, EVEN FOR CERTAIN WORKS NOT BEARING A COPYRIGHT NOTICE.
For older copyrights, you are GENERALLY safe if it is the original material (not an update or reprint which may include additional copyrighted material), and the copyright is before 1950.
For works 1950 and later, you must consider the following:
Works Originally Copyrighted Between January 1, 1964, and December 31, 1977: These works are protected by copyright for the 28-year original term and the 67-year renewal term without the need of a first term or a renewal registration.
Translation: A work copyright 1964 is protected to 2059.
Copyrights in their second term on January 1, 1978, were automatically extended up to a maximum of 75 years, without the need for further renewal.
Translation: the EARLIEST such a work could be out of copyright is 2026.
This means that especially with folks posting stuff on the web wholesale, they may have to pull their horns in a bit. A side benefit might be that some authors may need to work harder to develop their work when drawing on the material of others.
IMPORTANT: I'm not an attorney and this is not legal advice. Just my understanding of the law from a writer's point of view. For more information see: http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ15a.pdf
< Copyrights in their second term on January 1, 1978, were automatically extended up to a maximum of 75 years, without the need for further renewal.
< Translation: the EARLIEST such a work could be out of copyright is 2026. >
Whoops! As I just reread that, a work copyrighted January 1, 1925, which was actually renewed in 1952 (during its 28th year), would still be in copyright until January 1, 2000 (75 years)
I warned I wasn't an attorney! So be careful.
Thanks for the summary but the document in question was from 1910; even so I don't think anyone would pursue us for posting stuff from prior to the 1920s. The lack of such material is not so much a copyright issue but an availability-of-materials issue. :)
Well, I wasn't trying to spoil anyone's fun.
It's just that it used be to much more straightforward. 28 years was safe for some material, 56 years you were pretty much home free. Now it's gotten a lot more complicated, especially now that a work doesn't even have to be published with a copyright notice, in some cases.
If it was published in 1910 the Copyright HAS expired!!! Anything before June 18th, 1924 is in the public domain. However... Copyright does not cover trademark protection. Logos and Fonts and Likenesses and may still be protected so be carefull. Though I'll bet you are safe unless the map bears the logo of some famous and still existing publisher.
I don't know all the ins and outs, but if a trademarked logo is included in the map, and you do not alter it in any way, or take it out of context (i.e., if you simply republish the map as is without adding or removing content), I wouldn't think you'd have a trademark issue.
Similarly, if you publish a trolley picture, say, and there's a gas station in the picture with an Exxon sign, you're not infringing, since it's an incidental part of a picture of a public place.
OTOH, if you took that same Exxon sign, extracted it from its surroundings and put it on the cover of a brochure about Exxon, I believe you'd have a problem.
Or if you took that same trolley picture, and somehow altered the Exxon logo, I believe that would be called disparagement, also a no-no.
A movie company tried to use the "I Love NY" logo in an ad, with a knife cutting through it. NY successfully stopped this. The disparagement of the logo, owned by the NYS Department of Economic Development, trumped the 1st Amendment issue.
Yes. Similarly, if you want to reprint an article from The New York Times which is over 75 years old, the copyright has expired on the article, but the Masthead and potentially the font type may still carry trademark protection. If you retype the article you are okay, but if you scan and reprint the article "as it appears" there may be a problem. However, a picture of a man on the street holding the newspaper with the article and the masthead in plain view is not protected. If you used the picture of the man with The New York Times in an add for cigarettes... Get the Lawyers.
I know I'm getting way off topic here, but one thing leads to another.
The masthead as trademark--yes. Typefaces in the U.S. are not protected by copyright. The names of the typefaces are. This means you can copy Helvetica, but you can't call it Helvetica. That's why you'll see Helvetica copies called "Arial," "Helios," etc.
So can you "borrow" someone's Adobe typeface without paying royalties? Not!, The typeface isn't copyrightable, but a scalable typeface (one where you can choose different screen or print sizes) is. It's considered a program, which is entitled to protection.
Yes, but a typeface as a logo can be Trademarked which is different than a copyright.
A few year's back Ted Turner wanted to colorize all your favorite black and white movies. This was not because the movies are better in color, it was because the Movies were in the public domain and could not be protected. By colorizing the movies he was able to copywright the color of the films and have exclusive rights to "His" version. Now, colors, like red and blue and yellow cannot be copyrighted but the colorized version of the movies could be. If you want that version you have to pay Ted Turner. Even though the movie its self is in the public domain.
Also, even though many of the films of Charlie Chaplain are now in the public domain, Chaplain's estate is quite tenacious about protecting the iconified image of the character he played "The Little Tramp" This rule holds true for the Groucho Marx image and many others.
Here's some food for thought (related to this posting): in the near future popular actors will no longer have to actually perform in front of the camera to "appear" in a movie!
With the new digital photography and scanning imagery someone like Bruce Willis can one day "mail-in" his performance to the studio via pre-scanned images of him in various poses that can be manipulated later at a film studio on an ILM computer system.
This is well within the limits of current technology.
Doug aka BMTman
An iteresting sidenote is that Disney is the main reason copyright laws keep changing. 1976, 1992, and 1998 - that's a lot of changes. Why? Mickey Mouse. Disney has spent millions on lobbying congress just to keep Mickey protected by law.
A friend of mine got a grant to do some research/preservation work (on historical english romance novels, of all things!), and was able to gain access to a fancy portable handheld scanner of some sort, and has now produced a CD-rom of fragile/non-circulating/historical materials from Oxford & Cambridge libraries. If anyone out there has such equipment, this could be an option for such materials. If not, and someone has identified particular materials for which such an approach might work, I could see if I could get in contact with the program that loaned her the equipment (although since I am on the west coast, I probably could not do any of the actual scanning unless the materials were located out here).
I've read a couple of product reviews in the ALA (American Library Association) journal covering the type of equipment you describe. "Hand-held" is pushing it a bit - the equipment, as I understand it, is certainly portable if you can carry a 50 pound pack, and is capable of scanning pages in a partially-opened bound volume. The units must be attached to a powerful Apple PowerBook with lots of memory and disk space, and cost prodigious amounts of money - in excess of 30K, as I recall. But yes, they'll do the job.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey guys,
I thought someone would comment on that publication that I saw.
That wouldn't be:
"Tracks of New York", by Alan Paul Kahn and Jack May
Electric Railroaders' Association
(P.O. Box 3323, New York NY, 10163-9998)
Detailled track maps, plus photographs and routing information.
Two of the three volumes cover the Manhattan and BROOKLYN ELEVATED
systems. (The other volume is the Metropolitan Street Railway).
No, I saw 1910 publication of the Brooklyn Elevated.
Well, the comment I'd make is: I'd sure like to see it.
I stand corrected, the book title you cited, The Tracks of New York, is the book in question.
A book dealer in California has Volume 3. Dated 1920.
http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/dealer.html?id=376c1b776c
Kahn, Alan.: The Tracks of New York. Number 3. Manhattan and Bronx Elevated Railroads. 1920. ; np. np. 43 pps. Oblong 8 vo. Printed wrappers. First edition. Illustrated. Fine copy. 34247 USD45.00
I realized that these publications have an early date in the title.
However, these publications are not of those dates.
Thanks
Could an ERA member let me know what hotel the Philly convention is going to staying at? I seemed to have thrown away the form and of course I did not yet make a reservation.
Thanks,
dave
The Convention is at the Crowne Plaza Hotel at 18th & Market. The phone number for the hotel is 215-561-7500. There was a convention rate of $79 per night per room good until June 11th. You may still get in on this if you beg, plead or cry.
Jim K.
Chicago
If the Crowne Plaza can't accomodate you, I can recommend the Holiday Inn Express on Walnut Street about one block east of Broad. It has an outdoor pool and a free breakfast each morning. Also, it has a web site with a coupon good for a twenty dollar per night discount.
Hey, the ERA Convention is listed in Railroad Model Craftsman this year! Jul 3-4 Crowne Plaza Hotel, 1800 Market Street 215 561-7500. Full ERA package $130.00 (not including room). Of course, by now you knew that already..
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
I once read in somebody's article that there was a large cavernous space under Grand Central Terminal called the "Condos". What is this place and where is it located? Anyone know?
I've heard a number of rumors about this place myself. I don't know much about it; what I have been told is that the name is rather tongue-in-cheek, and comes from the community of homeless that apparently resided there during the dark days of Penn Central, Conrail commuter, and early Metro-North.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey there!
I just wanted to fill you in on a strange sighting last might and this evening. For one reason or another, two 7 car Corona transfers came onto the IRT Mainline and headed up the road on the 2 and 5 lines to the 239th Street Yard.
Each set had six R36s and one R33 single on the end. One of the sets was R33 9332-R36s 9700-01-9650-51-9612-13. The set, followed by the second transfer, headed home. One curious thing that I must wonder is if sets that come off the mainline travel directly to Corona, or do they stop over at Coney Island? Any estimate on how much time it takes to get from a Bronx IRT Yard such as 239th St, to Corona???
P.S. The R33 single looks ok. Hey, I might purchase one! Wouldn't that be cool? As a rich millionaire, I could put one in my back yard or donate to one of these fine Museums (especially Branford). You'll never know. It amazing what rail fans will do for a thrill, eh?
-Constantine
You don't need to be a rich man. You just need a friend with a flatbed truck.
My point exactly! You know somebody who can help, then it's to your advantage to get that help. It's just a scheme of mine.
Also, consider this: it's much easier to get a single car R33 as compared to a married pair of R40s (sorry Wayne). Money is a key issue and so is the availablity of electricity and space on any Museum Line. Who's got the space for it?
-Constantine
If you want to put one in your back yard, check the zoning first (and restrictive covenants, and with your friendly (ha!) county commissioners, and anyone else you can think of). Back in 1982 I was all set to purchase and relocate two 1960-vintage mechanical reefers as storage buildings in my back yard in rural North Carolina, but found that I would run afoul of some restrictive covenants and had to abandon the idea.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Absolutely. I would put it my backyard and hang some trolley wire, put up signals and just let her fly. This would only happen if I don't get hanged by the politicians. Anyway, I need an incredibly large amount of land for that kind of purchase. I only live in a public housing project. No, no, no. I'll put the R33 in the park, perhaps....
It's just some bizarre fantasy of mine, making the R33 a shrine for all rail buffs to come and worship!!!
-Constantine
Perhaps the mechanical reefers were listed by name in the zoning laws. I presume that there's no reference to subway cars in the ordinance, though. :)
--Mark
Not in NC! I ran afoul of a restrictive covenant that said any structure in excess of 100 square feet had to be constructed on site, and that also banned the parking of vehicles in excess of 22 feet long for more than seven consecutive days. Either way they had me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How the hell do they have all those Tornado Magnets, then?
-Hank
It depends on where you live. This was a covenant inserted into the deed during a prior transfer of the property (at one time my property was part of a failed planned development).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder why they were up there?
I have no clue. Mechanical modification, perhaps?
As I recall back in the day, 239th St Yard was responsible for the Air Conditioning Installations on various SMEE Cars including Flushing R36s.
A question: Someone told me that supposedly, there's an air conditioning unit small enough to fit a single IRT R33 car. Is that possible? Has it been attempted in any way?
-Constantine
-Constantine
Might be that the R33 was there to lead the consist throught the BMT/IND trackage. I beleive that only the R33s are equipped with trip cocks for the brakes on both sides.
-- Ed Sachs
That I know. It still doesn't answer why the cars came to the IRT mainline. They should have gone back to Corona.
-Constantine
Maybe the time for transferring equipment (R-36s to the mainlines, R-62s to the Flushing line) has arrived.
I doubt it. Mechanical modifications could only be the reason for the two 7 car sets to be on the mainline. As far as I know right now, there isn't any scheduled set of transfer moves to take place. Plus, you cant use 5 car R62/62A groups on a line that accomodates 11 car trains.
Anyone who knows otherwise, please share your info with us out here.
Thanks
Constantine
"One curious thing that I must wonder is if sets that come off the mainline travel directly to Corona, or do they stop over at Coney Island? Any estimate on how much time it takes to get from a Bronx IRT Yard such as 239th St, to Corona??? "
There is no direct connection between 239t St and Corona yards. In order to get from one to the other a train would have to get from the 2/5 lines to the #4 line or the #1 line. From there it would enter either Concourse or 207th St. yard and then head south over the A line or the D line to Manhattan and then into Brooklyn to Coney Island or 36th St. There, the train would turn and head north over the N line to Queensboro Plaza where it would switch to the #7 line. The trip would likely take in excess of 8 hours.
Steve,
Thanks for answering that. Question: Couldn't you turn the Corona transfer at Pacific Street?
-Constantine
Perhaps the train could have been turned at Pacific St. In this case it would not be done however. Since an R-33 was only at one end, a reverse move would have meant that the train would be traveling north without tripcock protection. The train would need to be looped or the R-33 moved tot he other end of the consist. This would never be done on a main line (except in an emergency)
One way that transfers go to Corona from the IRT is after leaving either 207th or Concourse, they head down Sixth Av. At 34th or 2nd Av. change ends. Head to 21st Queensbridge. Change ends. Head to 57 and 7th.change ends and then head to Queensboro Plaza fo the crossover to Corona. That way saves a lot of time. A crew can be back in Westchester yard in 8 hours like that.
Why were these cars up there in the first place? Thats what we all want to know. Besides the R36s on pelham. I do remember the R36 cars which was the 9560s series with 9558/9559 on the the #4 line 4 years ago. But now there back home.
Why does that take 8 hours? Couldn't it be dome in a couple of hours?
To begin with, the crew gets 1 hour to check out the train before leaving the yard. Then, drags or transfers are always put behind road trains. They must follow the road train, in essence, making local stops. Each time the crew changes ends, the train will be held to go behind the road, too. I am not sure about the time actually involved but in all likelyhood, the crew would get the full 8 hours for a move like that..
Where i work, I found out that the man who was found dead on the #1 train on Monday June 14 has been identified by family members as a Ecuadorean immigrant who worked in the farm fields of Delware.
Autopsy results are pending while the medical examier's pffice performs toxicology and other tests.
It is most likely will be on the radio and tv sometime today.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
A couple of years ago, stayed in a cabin next to a T.A. engineer in charge of station renovation projects. He said that one-third of the money the T.A. spends goes down the drain. Here's how.
Like other government agencies, the TA is forced to take the "low bidder." These bids are won not by construction companies, but by lawyers who lowball and subcontract the actual work.
From day one, the lawyers document how every delay and cost overrun is the TA's fault -- looking toward the eventual lawsuit. The key is the plans. You can't possible show everything on that you'll run into on the plans without tearing apart the station and doing the job ahead of time. So, if they find a piece of pipe inside a wall that isn't shown, they say -- "we need me to remove the pipe, carry it to the street, put it on a truck, put it on a train, and dispose of it -- two days delay, $100,000." The TA either goes along, or goes to court -- cost overruns, delays, or both. Moreover, the bidders try to do easy work first, getting paid for more than they have done, and then walk away. These sham contractors hover over the TA like flies over dung.
What would happen in the private sector? Business relationships. If a contractor acted like that, the company they screwed wouldn't do business with them anymore and -- after a few rounds of golf among those who hire construction companies -- neither would anyone else. But if you try to disbar these lawyers, they sue and win -- people have a "right" to do business with the government, just as we civil servants have a "right" to our job whether or not we actually do it.
I asked him what he would do. He suggested design-build, on the grounds that sham contractors wouldn't be able to come up with the design or the TA could not take their bid by claiming that others had better designs. But, he is from another country, and may not know why these low-bidder provisions are there. You'd get someone from the Pataki Administration calling and saying gee, isn't the design by a friend of a relative really better? It's a tough problem.
The "low bider" problem isn't just at the TA. The City of NY has the same problem !
Mr t__:-(
One solution might be for the TA to act as its own contractor in more cases. It'll be easier for them to handle the subcontractors than to deal with these crooked lawyers (pardon the redundancy) who snag the low bids. Come to think of it, aren't the self-managed projects handled a lot better (in both time and $ terms) than the ones that are contracted out?
Yes indeed; Unfortunately that is why there is so much pressure to "privatize" everything- it allows certain well-connected & sleazy individuals to transfer large amounts of public funds to their personal pockets and while trumpeting themselves as slashers of bureaucracy.
Here in SF, the mayor is paying millions to a consulting firm to which he has personal connections (his former law client, I believe) to "fix" the MUNI, when everyone knows that the reason service is bad is years of funding-by-political-whim that resulted in lact of spare parts, constant breakdowns, etc. Now that the agency is getting adequate funding, of course service is going to improve, and these "consultants" will reap millions for working a "private sector miracle" in an agency that was going to improve anyway.
Which is not to say that I don't think that in-house jobs by government & public agencies are ever corrupt; extensive privatization just brings in a new level of corruption and graft.
I agree with Thurston and Peter. All City-wide agencies do the "low-bid" shuffle and so they tend to get screwed in the long-run.
The TA would be wise to use it's own in-house contractors since at least some "control" can be maintained over a particular project. With outside contractors the "unforseen cost overruns" are the norm, as are the inevitable "kick-backs".
Doug aka BMTman
Rumor has it that the Willy B fix is progressing ahead of schedule. Is that an TA project or an external job?
If it is an external job, is there an early completion bonus or a within budget bonus? I'm not that familiar with govt. contracts (Larry?) From what I've read, while such bonuses do drive up the cost considerably, it is rare for contracts with such a bonus to run over.
There is a bonus for early completion AND a penalty for runing late. The TA found this works when the 53rd/Lex escalators were replaced and they finished early.
Unfortunately, doing work in house is not feasible for many agencies because they are the "low bidder" for engineering talent, and engineering talent is scarce and expensive.
Moreover, public sector engineers are not allowed to keep up their skills. Pay for courses, seminars, professional journals? Forget it. If I want to go to the American Planning Association national conference in NYC next year, I will not only have to pay out of my pocket, but take vacation time as well. Same for the engineers. The good ones move on to the "cold hearted" private sector. Since the only good thing about the public sector is the pension, you can get some older guys who don't want to work anymore.
Privitization is oversold as a solution. Agencies which are too incompetent or constrained by law to hire good employees aren't going to do any better at hiring good companies. As one TA guy told me, the low bidder problem is getting worse. The low bid more or less works for a commodity like diesel fuel, but how does the public sector decide what computer programming services to buy? More and more, the public sector is buying the latter. No one thinks about these things, but they are a big issue.
Who determines which agencies are subject to low-bidder rules? I have done consulting work for the NYS Insurance Department in the past, and they were not required to take the lowest bid -- consideration was given to the proposals prepared by each consultant.
As far as I know, state law says everyone has to follow low-bid rules unless there are specific exceptions. Because of this problem, NYC's 1989 Charter specified that the city did not have to take the low bid if other factors like quality offset price. Contractors went to the state courts and got that provision of the City Charter thrown out because it conflicts with state law. It was a page 5 story. I almost threw up.
The bottom line is this: Taxpayers are not getting the maximum value for their transit dollars. The Right is right, it is our money and if it is used efficently, citizens can have the best of both worlds, a reasonable level of government services and much lower taxes which can be invested in job creation by the private sector, which also results in profits which if taxed REASONABLY can be used to improve public transit, which BTW is key to welfare reform. Business, working together with the community can create a dynamic which will result in maximum wealth creation participated in by as great a percentage of the able-bodied citizens as possible. As for Corruption, That is where regulation, strict and comprehensive but not stifling is needed to ensure that it doesn't turn in to a Laissez- Faire free for all where those that have the gold, rule. but where the person who builds a better mousetrap can still get rich along with the investors who bet on him. Jim, what do you think.
(The Right is right.) Unfortunately, the right believes in survival of the fittest for the powerless, and socialism for the powerful.
Take New York State. Rudy cut the size of government in New York City, alright. Local government used to account for 10 percent of the money earned in the city, but in 1997 (latest available, just out from the BEA), this fell to 8.2 percent, lower than in New Jersey.
So services are improving and taxes are going down, right? Nope, Pataki CAPTURED these savings and transferred them to the suburbs and upstate, where local government employment has been going up. It is over 11 percent of the economy Upstate and in the suburbs. How can they afford it? With money collected in NYC. Except for Nassau County, which tried to pay for its own Republican sloth, and is going broke.
That's what Repulicanism stands for. Aren't upstaters offended that one-third of NYC's public school students passed the reading test? Doesn't that mean that -- even though the city's per student spending is the lowest in the state -- they are spending too much down here? Why should one third our our kids be taught to read when not every high school student gets a publicly funded trip to Europe.
Our efficiency = someone else's sloth.
I basically agree with you, America needs a return to pre reagan economic theory. The destruction of the prosperous working class can be directly traced to Alan greenspan sabotaging any trends which may result in higher wages and it's no coincidence that when Ron Carey won the greatest victory for morality in decades, republican judges threw him out on trumped up charges in favor of young hoffa. The hoffas have had it in for the Democrats ever since Bobby Kennedy kicked open jimmy hoffa's rotten corrupt administration of the teamsters union. HOWEVER the only way to produce wealth is thru the private sector. The idea is to allow enough economic freedom so that risk takers and value adders can reap the rewards they deserve but speculators, overpaid executives and free traders who are willing to sell out this country's birthright for a few euros will face a regulatory matrix that will grind them down and even their lawyers shouldn't be able to help them
I believe that job is being done mostly by the state and city DOTs, which own the bridge. The approach work, I believe, is the only par that the TA is responsible for.
-Hank
Come to think of it, aren't the self-managed projects handled a lot better (in both time and $ terms) than the ones that are contracted out?
Good question. This reminds me of some of the "recent" subway overhauls. Some were done by CI shop in house (the model numbers aren't in memory at present) and some were done by Morrison-Kundsen. Which set of overhauled cars showed the better quality after the overhauls?
--Mark
There were others involved too:
Morrison-Knudsen: R32s, most of the R42s, some of the R44s, R46s.
Buffalo Transit/GE: R38s, ten R32s
Sumitomo: R40s, R40Ms
NYCT: The remaining R44s, R42 #4870-4949
I know that the A/C in the NYCT-overhauled R42s doesn't cool quite as well as that in the MKCo-overhauled cars.
Buffalo Transit and Sumitomo did a very good job on their respective overhaul fleets (except for the 10 R32s which lack A/C).
Wayne
MK, definately. No peeling paint, no cracks in the interior walls. And that's just what I've noticed.
-Hank
Some of what you say is true-but not all. For meduium-size jobs, the TA does not require a track record. That is why so=called contractors like Impulse (Canal St) and CAB(14-8th Ave) get contracts and are so far behind.
For bigger jobs(times Sq, 72-Bway and Atlantic Ave) the contractors have to prove that they, and their employees, are experienced in the type of work required. This is the way most contracting agencies work.
Why can't the requirements be written in a way that would exclude these phony law-office "contractors"? For example, require that successful bidders must own certain specified types of construction equipment, or that they have successfully completed a certain number of other projects prior to the one they are bidding on. There are lawyers working for the MTA too, surely they can come up with some language that would meet the legal requirements without permitting essentially phony bids from phony contractors, can't they?
I agree with you. MATA, the Memphis bus company had Flxibles and the drivers hated them. They also hated the AMC bus fleet. The specs were rewritten to ensure only GM buses (and their successors)were bought and it worked.(at least till 1994 when I left that ** place!)
What's really fummy is that the Baltimore MTA got so soured on the RTS that they wrote bus specs so that only FLX met. So... we got nothing but Flxible Metro's from 1982 to 1996, when FLX went belly up. Now we get NABI's in both artic and 40 footers. Last batch of 40's (our 1998's) omitted the rear number display, as MTA finally figured out that they don't work. All the NABI's have LED sign displays that usually work, but have the s-l-o-w-e-s-t "wipe rate" that I've ever seen.
There is a way to do this. Many public agencies require that the bidder perform x% of the services required with his/her own forces. The prospective bidders must submit financial information to prove they have capital, equipment, etc to do the services that the bid will require. This tends to keep the "brokers" out.
As far as extra work goes, the design is only as good as it is thorough. Sloppy design and loose investigation of conditions will create a construction managers' nightmare and a contractors' gold mine. This often cannot be avoided, and this is why bid documents need to spell out explicit procedures for how extra work is handled.
Design-build is a good way to do many things but certainly not a panacea for the construction industry. Rehabilitation projects are often good candidates for this since there are so many unknowns and potential pitfalls. Design-build does not always mean that the job will be cheaper, however, and this is a common misconception.
You may not know this, but here in NYC there are specific state laws to allow contractors to rape the government. One is the Wicks law, that requires that government agencies hire four different independent contractors for every job, not a general contractor. As a result, when the work doesn't get done, they blame each other, and the City is just screwed unless (after years of litigation) it can prove beyond a reasonable doubt who is to blame. Then it gets to try to collect from a shell company. Every Mayor has tried to get this law repealed, and failed.
You're right - I'm not all that familiar with NY State law, although here in the great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania there are similar acts which let contractors have specific advantages. One that dates back to years gone by but is still on the books is the "multi-prime" law that forces building contracts to go to bid as five separate contracts (general, electrical, HVAC, plumbing, mechanical). This permits two general things to happen - 1) contractors can bicker with each other and cause prices to increase while they delay and 2) more is paid for staffing, inspection, mobilization, etc. While several attempts have been made to change this law, it remains in place.
(Pennsylvania has the same type of law). Different state, same scam. I thought our situation was unique, but I guess bad laws spread like cancer.
Actually, I heard that the regional transit situation works about the same in Philly as well. The City of Philadelphia puts up most of the money, but the suburbs get most of the votes.
What was the original motivation for this law?
(Original motivation for Wick law) Anti-corruption, like the "low-bidder" rules, is the official reason. The actual reason is that subcontractors wanted to be able to rip off the government directly, rather than having to provide fair value to a general contrator who would then keep all the ripoff profits itself.
Well the 2000 is coming soon. What is going happen in the subways at that time? Will train keeping running or will they stop dead in their "tracks"?
What do you thing???
I think the trains will run fine. My only worry is the fare control system. It is obviously highly depentent on dates. Stored-value card expire on a certain date, and unlimited-use cards rely completely on dates. I'm sure MTA has done Y2K work on the system, but all it takes is one little oversight in the code, and everyone's cards will expire at the infamous stroke of midnight... Save up your tokens!
People are spending billions to rewrite computer programs to handle dates. Is this a long term fix, or are they setting us up to have the same problem again? What about Y10K? We need five digits in the date.
Well, there are two ways to fix Y2K - windowing and expansion.
Windowing is the cheap fix. If you have records that only go back to say, 1970, then the easy fix is to just stick some lines of code in that say "If the year number is 00-68, then assume it's in the 21st century. If it's 69-99, then assume it's in the 20th century." But of course then you're setting yourself up for problems down the road, as you said.
Expansion is the more sensible, and therefore more common fix. That's where you alter all the date-handling code to deal with 4 digits. That way it works until 9999. It can be more difficult than windowing - a lot more has to be re-built and re-compiled.
The reason we are in this mess in the first place is that no one thought any of these systems would last this long. The only reason anyone is doing windowing is that they haven't learned their lesson - they think "This system is so old it will surely be replaced by 2068." But then they thought that when they first made the system, too, which is why we have Y2K problems.
To answer your question, yes, the problems will theoretically happen again in the year 10,000, although I think it's a little more reasonable to assume that computers will have changed enough by that time that no one will still be using a system designed in this century, or the next. But who can say for sure?
Before the year 10,000, other things might happen.
The system of leap years might change. The calendar might change. Cockroaches might rule the earth.
Cockroaches already DO rule some places :~)
Expansion is the more sensible, and therefore more common fix.
I'll disagree with that statement. Very few systems in use today will be around by 2056 - the "pivot date" that has been generally accepted in the computer industry. Part of my job responsibilities the past three years have involved supervising Y2K compliance efforts within my organization. About 95% of our changes have involved windowing. New development must use expansion, but that's all. It doesn't make sense to spend $1M to renovate code that will be obsolete within ten or twenty years when you can do it using windowing for 150K - about the relative cost differential between the two methods.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Each company is fixing Y2K its own way. I can say that my company is using expansion for most of its systems, and that's at least 200 custom apps thorughout the corporation...
Yes, Y2K is getting closer and closer. I know that on 1/1/00, all of my databases (30,000 records) now in my trusty "dBase III+" will no longer be accurately sortable by date. However, I expect life in the subways to go on as it did on 12/31/99. Of course if I'm wrong the
OLDER TRAINS
may continue to run fine but the
Newer Trains
well, they might have some control problem.
What really scares me are the jets that are not "Fly By Wire".
Tell Joe Hoffman that wouldn't happened on System 38. Do you think when the computers come online that Steam Engines will rule again and I will be retired for 70 years?
Concerning dBase III+:
It's a bit off topic, but the only thing in dBase that is not Y2K compliant is the internal tagging of database files with a "last updated" date. This date is somewhat redundant, since it duplicates the date maintained in the directory entry by DOS, which will be updated correctly. Oddly, it is only writing these dates which is done incorrectly - they are READ in a Y2K-compliant manner. For example, is a file is updated on January 1, 2000, a value of zero will be stored in the second byte of the file, and a dBase "DIR" will show the file as having been updated on January 1, 1900. But if the zero is changed to a value of 100 (94h) with a binary editor, then dBase will list the file as having been modified on 1/1/2000. Likewise with 101 (95h) representing 2001, etc. And of course, dBase "date fields" are fully Y2K compliant if SET CENTURY ON is used.
Perhaps someone can come up with a patch to the dBase III+ .EXE file that will cause it to write the correct year bytes when updating files?
Thanks for the insight. Most of it was way over my head but at least now I know I can get out the manuals and save my data.
I switched from dBase III+ to FoxPro 2.0 after tinkering with the disastrous (IMHO) dBase IV.
Wouldn't you consider upgrading to Visual FoxPro?
I have a database from the FAA that uses FoxPro. I find it very user friendly. However, the MTA will not buy foxpro. They want me to convert my dBase files to MSAccess.
< I have a database from the FAA that uses FoxPro. I find it very user friendly. However, the MTA will not buy foxpro. They want me to convert my dBase files to MSAccess. >
Maybe they want to use Access files for compatibility with VBasic or because Access programmers are easier to find, especially for simpler jobs (there aren't a whole lot of low-level dBase or FoxPro people because of the nature of the programming languages).
IMHO, the MTA is restricting the ability of its future programs to perform by going toward Access (an MS Office product) rather than VFoxPro (an MS Studio product), but then, I don't know what kinds of applications the MTA is using dBase/MSAccess for.
I believe TBTA uses FoxPro.
Regarding jets, I think you have it backwards. It is the newer, computerized control systems that are "fly-by-wire." The older jets have hydraulic links from the flight deck controls (i.e. the rudder pedals and joystick) to the control surfaces. In the fly-by-wire system, movement of the controls results in electrical signals over wires linked to actuators at the particular control surfaces.
The trains will keep right on going. Some of the signals are so old that there probably isn't anything in their circuitry that would cause problems on 1/1/2000 ....
--Mark
Already we are issuing cards with expiration dates of "00" and they are not shown as expired.
I am sure the programmers on this BBS(and I do believe wwe have quite a few) can expand but there are several ways of fixing the 00 problem. I have not seen the code for the software, but it appears that the fix here is a "window" where dates before a certain year are treated as 19XX and after that year are treated as 20XX.The window can be moved forward as time progresses. Since MetroCard was introduced in 1994, maybe the window recognizes 94 as 1994 and 95 as 2095.
****disclaimer: This post is personal opinion and not that of MTA or NYCT***
No, it would have to treat 95 as 1995, but 93 would be 2093.
And if the MTA is using windowing, that's not good. Evryone is fixing date bugs now because of all the media attention to Y2K, but with the windowing method you mention, each company is picking a different date, so there will be no media flak when the the year 2093 arrives to remind the MTA that they need to fix the system again. The programmers who are working on it now will be long gone... It will be up to the programmer attending to the system at the time to realize that it needs to be done. It might just stop working.
See my post in a parallel thread. All major computer software houses around the world have agreed on a pivot date and most independent renovators are following that standard. It really won't be a big problem in the future.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For most new (after 1995) systems, the date routines don't store the date as six or eight characters, but as a serial number beginning on some arbitrary date. MS Visual Basic uses day minus(MAX) = January 1, 100 AD. The rules for leap years, including the calendar correction in the late 1600's must be programed into the date calculations, but it works.
Depending on the range of serials, years in the future can be calculated till you reach the maximium value of the serial. Oracle for example can do dates up to December 31, 2999.
As to the display of the date, that's strictly up to the programmer using the format (or similar command) in the language. So if today =6/20/99, a command like format(today+10, ddmmmyy) will print the date 10 days from today in the standard Oracle format of 30JUN99.
Secret documents obtained from the TA reveal the following:
The good news is that the system will still run as of 0001, 1January2000. The bad news is that the system will interpret "00" as 1900.
So at one minute after midnight, all schedules will revert to those in effect on January 1, 1900. No service will operate on any former IND Line, or IRT subway line. Ironically, the Southern Division of the BMT will come closest to normal service.
For lines scheduled to operate on now-demolished structures, such as the Fulton Street L, the TA has contingency plans to build ramps to the street and street running. This will be a temporary operation, like closure of the Manhattan Bridge.
I recommend that everyone visit eBay to obtain any 1900 schedules that may become available. I also recommend that you make sure your cameras are Y2K compliant, and that you have plenty of film.
My Speed Graphic is definitely Y2K Compliant GRAFLEX POUR TOUJOURS
5x7 or 8x10?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Alas, it's only a subminature 4x5. :-)
Ah. My father has a 5x7 that he still uses on occasion, hence my curiosity.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is your automobile Y2K compliant? It has computers in it.
At MARTA they are checking if nuts, bolts, relays, fuse panels and other such hardware are Y2K compliant. I wonder if a person's brains is Y2K compliant? It's a computer too.
Checking every last thing for Y2K compliance isn't as funny as it seems - nut and bolts are certainly overboard, but the biggest problems with Y2K are actually not computer programs, but embedded chips that communicate with those programs. Turnstiles are a perfect example. That's great if the MTA's mainframe can handle Y2K, but what if the chips in the turnstiles can only handle a 2-digit year? You can't just upload new code to fix the chip - it has to be re-designed and replaced on most cases.
Back to the overboard thing, check out this page:
Sanyo Small Appliances
Be sure to check out the can opener. What was really funny is that the Bread Warmer also used to have the Y2K-compliant badge, but I supose somebody finally realized how ridiculous that was and took it off...
And it's refreshing to note that that the Sanyo AC/Rechargeable Shaver is Y2K Compliant. No running to the store for blades!!
The only impact of Y2K will be a recession in the travel and tourism industry. My wife, who is a bank examiner, has been ordered not to take vacation from October to March, and to be on hand in the "control center" on New Years -- just in case. Lots of banks and other companies have the same rules. The "Millenium Party" is going to take place in the office, after everyone realizes that nothing has happened.
Meanwhile, all those Christmas week trips to Disney or the Caribbean will not occur. Sell those leisure stocks now.
IMHO, The overall equity market has entered a corrective phase, anyway. Time to batten down the hatches.
Yes. My employer has also restricted vacations, and as the project manager I've been informed that I will be on premises until 3 AM CST (our systems all sync on CST for some obscure historical reason) - on Shabbat no less. I'm not thrilled, to say the least, but it's a "condition of employment" or something like that, so I just have to go with the flow.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you're observant, they can't make you do it. Call the EEOC.
-Hank
No, we're Reform, as is the Director three levels of management above me (same shul, no less). I'm observant in my own way, I guess - I wouldn't ordinarily work at my job on Shabbat, but I don't define work the same way that the Orthodox do, so spending the day in the kitchen cooking a nice meal (another of my hobbies) or driving somewhere to chase a train is pleasure, not work as far as I am concerned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But if you don't ever work on Saturdays....
-Hank
EEOC or no EEOC, you can really screw up your standing in a company if you're not available at a critical time--there are many small ways they can get back at you.
Not pretty. Maybe not right, either. But the real world...
[re postponed trips over New Year's]
Maybe some people are cancelling their trips, but plenty of others must be going. A man in my office told me that he had decided against a trip to Puerto Rico over New Year's because the prices were sky-high. Waiting until February meant that the trip would be about 30% cheaper.
#3 West End Jeff
CG
1. Is the Lenox Terminal on the surface or underground?
2. How big is the yard?
Lenox Terminal is street level. The yard is as well, but a building or group of buildings is constructed over it. As far as I know, the yard's quite small (hence the 9-car limit on the 3 line).
I know that 145th St. is too short for the trains. How many cars can it accomodate?
145th St can accomodate 5 cars fully and most of a sixth on either platform.
I think the 9 car limit is due to the very short platform at 145/Lenox Ave.
Lenox yard is small which explains for 9 car consist but when G.O.'s require shortlining number 2 service 10 car trains can be layed up on some tracks which ones i'm not sure.
The tracks by the station can handle 10 Cars because thats where they layup the No.2 train and also the 10 cars from the No.1 line like that one G.O. Ofcause this sunday and next some No.2 trains will be leaving out of 148 Street-Lenox.
Tracks 15 through 25 in the Lenox Yard extend a little further than the others and may be able to hold ten car trains depending on the placement of the switches. The Lenox Terminal Platform itself though can hold ten car trains.
Larry,RedbirdR33
When all is said and done, the lawyers will get rich on this Y2K compliance scam. They will "have the last laugh" at this joke. Companies will sue their consultants for overcharging for solving problems that don't exist. Some consultants want to know if hardware is Y2K compliant.
What do you think of this John Bredin, Esq in Chicago? Maybe you can get rich on this endeavor.
Hey, if my computer goes down and I can't dial into Subtalk, I'm going to sue Dell.
Helllo David Pirmann, the Webmaster. Is this site Y2K compliant? It better be since Subtalk must live on New Year's Eve.
Yes, the two servers (www and brighton) are compliant as far as I know.
The times just did an article on this Wednesday. The Senate is trying to curb this. It was said that it could be bigger than asbestos, breast implants and a couple of others combined. I hope they do stop this, because I file these papers in the court system, and it is ridiculous. They sue a whole bunch of companies who have nothing to do with the problem (e.g. parent companies, etc.), and then have to dismiss the action against the cleared defendants one by one.
I agree that a lot of lawyers will be getting a lot of business from Y2K, suing (and defending) companies that sold non-compliant equipment and software, and from advising them how to avoid liability in the first place (disclosure clauses, etc.). But since the lawyers didn't create the problem, it doesn't seem to me any different that doctors making into the six figures curing people's diseases and fixing them up when they are injured. Making money isn't wrong, as long as you didn't create the problem to make business for yourself. (^:
Gentlemen: Let us not condemn an old friend to the scrapheap too soon. The portion of the Lexington Av El between Gates Av and Crescent St is still intact even though in some places it has been expanded and improved. East of Eastern Parkway it still uses the original two track structure.
I believe that this is the oldest el structure still standing in New York City.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,
Did the original line end at Crescent St. or did it end at the first Cypress Hills Station which was on Crescent St? What I am asking is was the stretch of el on Crescent St part of the original structure or did it get built later?
Karl B
Karl: The original terminal was the Cypress Hills Station which was located on Crescent St at Jamaica Av. This station was abandoned when the line was extended to 168 St.
There also was the Crescent Street Incline south of the terminal which permitted El trains to run on the streetcar tracks along Jamaica Av. This operation lasted only from May 30,1903 to Decemeber 8,1903. Although the ramp remained standing until 1924 the track connection to the el structure was broken by 1910.
Larry,RedbirdR33
And if you look underneath the structure at the corner of Crescent and Jamaica Avenue you can still see the steelwork for the way the original terminal stub-ended.
Larry,
Thank You! I knew if anybody knew the answer to that question, you would. I didn't know when I lived there that I was living right along the oldest section of el remaining.
Karl B
Are there any remains of the connection between the Lexington Ave. and Broadway Els that still survive?
I do know that between Norwood Ave. and Crescent St. there still remains some evidence of the connection to the LIRR's Atlantic Ave. line that was in existence from about 1896-1916.
Bob: That would be the Chestnut Street Incline that you refer to. I believe that it is still possible to see the connection where the Lexington Av El would have turned onto Broadway, ifs its not visible from above look at the steelwork from underneath.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I have a few pictures of the Chestnut St. connection on my LIRR History website at http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/joint.html
Are there any remains of the connection between the Lexington Ave. and Broadway Els that still survive?
I do know that between Norwood Ave. and Crescent St. there still remains some evidence of the connection to the LIRR's Atlantic Ave. line that was in existence from about 1896-1916.
Are there any remains of the connection between the Lexington Ave. and Broadway Els that still survive?
I do know that between Norwood Ave. and Crescent St. there still remains some evidence of the connection to the LIRR's Atlantic Ave. line that was in existence from about 1896-1916.
I just stumbled on an interesting web site - official - covering the Sao Paolo, Brazil subway system.
Sao Paolo subway
It's in both English and Portuguese and has a lot of good, albeit not high-resolution, photos.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where are the car washer's on the LIRR? I know about the one in Babylon. Are there others? Are they used? Last Saturday, took a ride out to Montauk (m'cycle, not train). There were several (at least 5)trains at the Montauk terminal - both the older equipment and the new bi-levels. The bi-levels looked as dirty as the 40 year-old equipment. I guess old habits are hard to break.
IMHO,car cleaning (inside or out) isn't a priority on LIRR. Although I'm only an infrequent rider,I notice the equipment to be consistently unkempt. Last week,for example: 10:29 AM Far Rock/Flatbush:exteriors unwashed,interiors littered and dusty,toilets HORRENDOUS and 2 out of 6 cars hot. According to the crew,this is normal! On the whole,NYCT cars are cleaner and better kept.
Cleaning is a definite priority on the NYCT. In the area of exterior car washing, 70% of every fleet is mandated to be washed weekly. As for interior cleaning, cleaners actually outnumber mechanics. Jamaica Shop alone has 186 cleaners cleaning in the yard and 5 other locations. Cleaning of the E train will begin at the World trade Center on 6/27.......
There's a car wash at Ronkonkoma too. But you get no argument from me on LIRR cleanliness.
A car wash at Ronkonkoma? I ride the Greenport train to Medford, which goes right through the yards, and I've never noticed one (or maybe I just haven't been looking ...)
Is there also one on the south side of the tracks, just west of Jamaica on the Flatbush Ave. line? I have a vague memory of one being there, but it's been too many years since I rode that line with any frequency to say for sure.
As an E/F rider I,for one,appreciate the effort. Labor intensive as it sounds,it's still an important factor in the overall public impression of the system. LIRR should study your methods!
There's one at Hunter's Point Ave....
-Hank
And I think there may be one at shea too.
Great, the LIRR has all these car washes - I've never seen one in use. LIRR fans get all annoyed when you point out NYC subways are cleaner, but it's a fact. Even MN seems to be better, though New Haven line stuff tends to get pantograph grime on the roof.
I believe that the car washer at Hunters Point belongs to SLAMTRAK.
Yeah, our favorite national delayed train system has a wash there - but a bit past that, closer to the tunnels, the LIRR has one too. The Slamtrak one is nice, looks cool, and is actually used. Last time I saw the LIRR one, I think it had half collapsed or something. I think NJT trains get washed at the slamtrak one too. What i don't get is why they don't put one on the approach to the west side yard, so every train leaving the yard gets a scrubbing right before comming into Penn and picking everyone up? I mean hey, they go slow into penn, you gotta go slow through the car wash...
Side note - we passed through one on the Low V fan trip. It woulda really stunk if it had activated while we were in it because of all the open windows. How does the car wash get activated, is it an automatic thing, does the T/O hit a button as they enter it, or does somebody stand nearby in a booth working it. Also, do subways cars have that "Car Wash Crawl" button on them like the M series MUs have? Oh yeah, and how (did) they deal with open windows - did they pass through and check the train first?
All NYCT car washers have operators. The operator activates the wash for 'wash' trains only. Most require a train operator who operate through the wash at 2 MPH. The Jamaica wash actually has a digital readout that gives the instantaneous and average train speed as it passes the wash rack. If it's going too fast, the wash operator will tell the train operator via radio. The wash crews are required to close all of the windows (including cab windows). When they don't close them, we can expect electrical problems in a matter of days due to the corrosive nature of the stainless steel cleaner that is used.
The Coney Island wash doen not require a train operator. Trains are pulled through the wash by a conveyor system.
Steve...any problems with drip-down of the cleaner into
the underfloor equipment?
Not too much although floors on some cars are in pretty bad shape.
At this B-U-S depot there's a wheel on a stick. When the bus moves the wheel the wash comes on. There's also an alarm that sounds when the driver is going too fast.
It's a three lane affair so we can fuel 'em, probe 'em & wash 'em in minutes.
P.S. inside they use compressed air to BLOW out the dirt, newspapers, bottles, etc. The sucking end is 2 foot wide, so no small childern allowed to ride thru wash.
Mr t__:^)
Does the TA still run Fantrips? If so, how does one go about getting invited to one? I'd relish the chance to ride on some older subway cars that I'm too young to have ridden, like the R1's - R9's and the BMT Standards and Triplexs's
The New York Transit Museum runs these nowadays. In the past few years only the BMT Triplexes and the Low-V's have been available. This year, the Triplexes are in the shop and there aren't any trips scheduled. The Low-V trip is usually in September. There's no R1/9 train usable and the Standards have been under restoration for several years.
Well Gents,
Aside from the the Lo-V special in September, chances are another D Type Special will make it's way again towards the end of the year.
Also, the ERA is proposing a Fan Trip on the LIRR using the old diesel and coach set. One GP38/two coaches/1parlor/one power pack is scheduled to travel in MU Territory that doesn't normally see diesels (like Port Wash and Long Beach). There could be more coaches if turnout is good. The trip is supposed to cost $40 and will be held September 25.
More details will become available as the trip becomes finalized.
Hi SubTalkers...
I'm at DisneyWorld administering a conference (250+ TV/radio meteorologists!). Just rode the Disney monorail... talk about unique electric rail transporation! I tried to envision a modernized version high atop the Van Wyck :-[
The best part is that the Disney hotels have a TV channel dedicated to my beloved WCBS Newsradio-88; they pick it up off the satellite -- the video background is a slide of the station logo silouetted over the NYC skyline. Sounds like you all have fine weather this weekend. Here in Orlando, it's 90 degrees, humid, and there are scattered thunderstorms around. And that's transit and weather together!
If you get a chance to ride again, let a monorail leave the station. If you are one of the first people to the platform, very nicely ask the attendant if you can ride up in the first car with the operator. Assuming no family with children beat you to it, the usual answer is yes.
Excellent idea, Alex! Perhaps if I show my Seashore Instructor's license it will help...
the monorail use cab signals and radio controls. the trains use a call sign of the color that they are painted (black, blue etc..)the transport system down there is the envy of a lot mid-sized citys. you get a bus from anywhere to anywhere in minutes.(it is also free when stay there.)
< [...] the transport system down there is the envy of a lot mid-sized citys. you get a bus from anywhere to anywhere in minutes.(it is also free when stay there.) >
This sort of picks up our thread on Coney Island and Disney's interest/non-interest in it.
It appeals to me that maybe a Coney Island amusement park would be too outside of Disney's experience and business model and maybe they are wise to steer clear of it.
Disney's theme parks seem to depend on a very controlled environment, where they have their fingers heavily in lodging, transportation and other items peripheral to the amusements. They also seem to lean heavily on all-inclusive packages aimed at formal vacationers.
Perhaps they would not be able to handle large transient crowds attracted by, say, a Sunny Summer Sunday.
Paul, you are absolutely right. Here at the Disney World/Coronado Convention Center, we have begun calling it "The Compound." They want to take care of everything for you. And charge you for everyting they take care of! Mickey is one smart mouse.
But over 300 TV & radio meteorologists are here now... and thunderstorms booming away! Thankfully I can listen to WCBS Newsradio-88 on the TV set in my room :-)
TG for CBSnooz, Orlando.
< But over 300 TV & radio meteorologists are here now... and thunderstorms booming away! Thankfully I can listen to WCBS Newsradio-88 on the TV set in my room :-) >
Maybe you can use your "special influence" to get us some decent rain on Long Island. I'm afraid that next cooking aroma I smell will the pine barrens, not my barbecue.
Hey Todd, I pick up Newsradio 88 here in Stafford Virginia on my evening drive home.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
WCBS, being 50,000 "clear channel," can be heard in 30+ states at night depending upon atmospheric conditions. At Disney World, however, there is a "barter agreement" which has the signal plucked off the satellite and put on a TV channel in all of the resort hotels. In return, we run promotional announcements for Disney World on-the-air. The same arrangement has been made with WGN radio of Chicago.
Thursday I come home to cooler, less humid weather (I hope!) and riding the rails of Boston. Next NYC visit for WCBS and subway-riding, by the way, is 9-10 July.
KOA in Denver calls itself "the 50,000-watt blowtorch" of the Rocky Mountain West. It can be picked up all over the western U. S. and even Canada. If I remember correctly, WHN and WABC in New York were also 50,000-watt stations, as is WTIC in Hartford (with its Beethoven's Fifth signal on the hour). My cousin said he could pick up WABC from Montreal.
I know this is getting off-topic, but I remember picking up WGN in Chicago from Connecticut.
And I WHN in Tidewater Virginia back in the mid-'70s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hello, Paul. I haven't been around for a couple of days.
I agree about your remarks on the Disney Co. and Coney Island. If you've been to Orlando the place is like a "city within a city". Disney pretty much has a say in whatever goes on down there and yes, is geared toward the vacationing family. With Coney Island, Disney would have to also cater to the 'locals' (meaning a separate entry fee -- less $$$ obviously -- for those not in need of (1) lodging and (2) expensive dinners).
Not to mention that Disney's in-park restaurants would get competition from Nathan's and the eateries along the Boardwalk (even those down by Brighton Beach).
Doug aka BMTman
Do they still run those express monorails between the parking area and Magic Kingdom? They ran nonstop in the opposite direction of the regular monorails (counterclockwise around Lake Buena Vista), and everyone had to get off once they stopped. I haven't been to Disney World since 1980, before Epcot opened.
And now for something completely different...
I was in Atlanta last week at the Southern Baptist Convention (and probably the only Catholic there - that's another story for another time) and took note of the people mover they have at Hartsfeld Airport. The trains and trackways are nearly identical to what we have at Denver International Airport. The main differences were that there is a walkway between the trackways, something which was grossly overlooked in Denver, and the only lights in the tunnels are the red exit signs. I felt as though I was on a train of R-1s or R-4s with no headlights. The tunnels at DIA have mercury vapor lighting.
Yes, the express monorails still run in the opposite direction of regular traffic.
There is also a similar one at McCarran Airport (Las Vegas) connecting two of the more remote gateway areas. I ride it each time I'm there (visiting my daughter, son-in-law, and grandson) as I usually fly Delta, which is in one of the outlying terminals. It runs mostly outdoors but comes into the terminal building at each end.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Denver's and Atlanta's trains are entirely underground. Well, in the case of Denver, they do come out of the ground way at the end where the maintenence facility is located, but everyone is supposed to get off at Concourse C. When we boarded the train in Atlanta, we were initially headed in the wrong direction, having boarded at Concourse D. When our train got to Concourse E, there was an announcement that everyone had to get off. Those of us in our group stayed on. The train started up and turned to the left, passing a few turnoffs and coming to a stop at a dead end. After a few seconds, it started up again in the opposite direction and we were on our way to the terminal.
BTW, if you listen very closely as a train starts up in Denver, you can hear the familiar R-1/9 bull and pinion gear sound.
When I'm at Disney with the family in August it will be an easy link to keep up with the news at home!
Sitting in front with the driver is the best ride in the Magic Kingdom!!!
the photos from about August of 1998 of the Dyre Avenue line seem to indicate a third center track in the area of the Gun Hill Road and Baychester Avenue stations. When was this third track installed?
It was built as a four track main.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That center track was recently laid for testing of the R-142's when they arrive. The line was a four track main when it was the NY, Westchester & Boston Railway. When they went out of business and the TA took over, they removed the center tracks north of Morris Park. As of today, the ballast has been laid from Pelham Parkway to the Baychester Avenue but the third rail is not there yet. (No rush, the trains shouldn't be here anytime soon anyway.)
Will the Williamsburg bridge reconstruction correct the problem the 75 footers have at Marcy Ave. in terms of clearance???
All indications are that it will. Per some information in an earlier thread, however, there are other problem areas for the 75' cars on that line, so we still won't see them there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've always wondered how trains are coupled and uncoupled. Do they just run one train slowly into the next until they click, or what?
That's essentially it, from a mechanical point of view. (On American railroads, which use a coupler design known as the "Janney", after its designer, the air line is manually connected by the brakeman after the cars are coupled. European railroads use a somewhat different design that also incorporates buffers to keep the cars separate.) On the subway I believe that all connections, including air and electrical, are made automatically - subway and light rail couplers are of a significantly different design than RR couplers, and can also vary between types of cars.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Railroad MU cars also have automatic couplers that make all neccesary connections. Many of them are similar to subway or LRT couplers. I believe LIRR and MNCR use different couplers.
-Hank
I believe that the R-110A uses a LIRR style coupler.
It uses the same types the Arrow IIs and IIIs have used. I feel sorry for anyone adding on curves or using the knuckle adapters with these couplers as the spears shear off VERY easily and since they are cast and not bolted to the couplers, the drawheads have to be dropped when one is damaged. Eric may know the cost of this proposition.
Standard American RR car couplers are the "knuckle-type" (named for looking like a fist) that automatically close when the cars are pushed together.
As I understand things, NYCTA subway cars since R-68(A) have full 600 volt power running through the couplers so train crews have to be careful not to make contact with them when entering/existing cars from the roadbed. Is this true?
Doug aka BMTman
As I understand things, NYCTA subway cars since R-68(A) have full 600 volt power running
through the couplers so train crews have to be careful not to make contact with them when
entering/existing cars from the roadbed. Is this true?
This is not true. All of the electrical contacts are battery
voltage (38 Volts).
Various systems have used 600 volt circuits on the electric portions of the couplers - or through separate jumper cables. Any such circuit routed through coupler buttons would be protected by a coupler cut-out linked to the brake pipe cocks as a failsafe. At Seashore, we equip our MU pairs with a single trolley pole at the inner end of each car and add a separate jumper wire under the floor to feed between cars. In doing so the more photographed outer ends look as they did in service. Shaker Heights used 600 volt jumpers between PCC cars. Most HL, AL and similar MUs used jumper cables instead of electric portions to feed the high voltage control circuits between cars. Our Sydney P-class used 600 volts on the coupler buttons, but has the aforementioned cut-outs.
So, in other words, if you're running the IND cars (800 and 1440), does raising one trolley pole suffice for both cars?
Yes, it does, and both cars are under power.
Shaker used 600 volt bus jumpers on PCC's to reduce the number of poles in trains. Our 5800's (MU Semi-Convertibles) used 600 volt bus jumpers for similar reasons - one trolley pole up on two-car trains, due to electric switches east of Lombard & 8th Streets Car House. Three car trains, either with 3 motors or 2 motors and a "dead" trailer (7000 class) dropped the third car at 8th Street.
RR MU cars like M1 and ArrowIII cars have a high voltage bus between pairs also.
I like this feature because it makes it harder to gap cars on third rail gaps. Problem is that contact rail section breaks have to be real long to keep cars from bridging gaps and electrifying power off areas.
But most third rail gaps aren't section breaks, only crossing from one side to the other or breaks for switches.
Yes, but can we think of any American cars which had exposed
high-voltage pins on the coupler? (as opposed to separate
jumper cables)
Harold is correct. The N2A automatic coupler is very fragile. One of the reasons they are damaged is the RR has vastly different operating procedures.
In the subway, the motorman operates at the car where the cut is being made. On the RR, with M.U.'s they won't use two engineers. A conductor makes the cuts.
But they also flag the cars backward to make adds too. Therein lies the problem. Sometimes because he's telling the engineer what to do via radio or intercomm, the signals on distance aren't exact. So instead of a one MPH add, you get a three MPH hit.
On knuckles, that's well within tolerances. Automatic car couplers can't take that. The trusty H2 is tough, it can. But the Dressler form 70 and WABCO's N2A, no. I've seen cars with the pin sheared off, and cars with a hole punched in the recciever.
And yes, the R-110a is carrying an N2A coupler.
Erik, On the N2A, I see only one air tappet. Since the M-1s use P-Wire, I assume there is no need for T/Line Brakepipe and that this tappet is actually main reseroir air. Is this correct?
No, actually, BP is still used for when they move the cars with a locomotive. LIRR felt a MR line was redundant and removed it. For dead compressors,the BP train line flows enough air. P wire braking consumes so little air, just brake cylinder, so they get away with it. ArrowIII cars being regular BP reduction cars have and need both. Now MNCRR I don't know. I will look next time I can.
Basically that's it. Once two cars are coupled, the airlines open and the train goes into emergency. When the operator re-charges the brake-pipe, the electrical conections are made.
Jack, There's also a thing called a "Link-Bar" that mates subway cars togather. Many cars that look like they come apart (topside view, i.e. headlights, etc.) are realy linked togather for life. You can get them apart, but that's not SOP, i.e. when one car in the set has a problem, they all come in to the repair shop.
Why, this allows the TA to remove redundant components, many of which have a high failure rate, so the train stays in service more of the time and save you & I a little money.
Mr t__:^)
What are the LARGE cost savings from linking cars? I know there are many, but what are the big ones that make it worthwhile?
When a specific series of cars are bought by the HUNDREDS like New York City does, you can see the savings easily when you get pairs of cars that share one set of mechancial and pneumatic components (half the amount of equipment to run the same amount of cars).
I don't have the financial figures here in front of me, but you can rest assured that the savings are substantial and worth the minor benefits of having single-unit cars of the same make (notice how many series of NYCTA cars were done as paired units and you'll see that it was the preferred configuration of rapid transit cars).
The real 'downside' to the paired unit consist would be if one of the two units had a problem not related to the shared motor-power equipment -- say a non-functioning door control -- this would obviously put two cars out of service for a problem confined to one specific car.
Doug aka BMTman
OK, I've had my question answered (no specific message to respond to). So, are trains uncoupled by some kind of switch in the train or on the coupler?
On the train. There's a key (called, appropriately enough, the cutting key) that disengages the coupler's mechanical portion electrically. The train can then be pulled apart, which breaks the air and control connections. If the electric uncoupling fails, you need some tools, as there is a mechanical release on the coupler.
-Hank
This seems to be coupling day on SubTalk!
What actually breaks the mechanical coupling is an air piston
which pushes a latch out of the way. The details differ
between the "classic" H-heads and the various Thomlinson-derived
heads found on the R44, 46, 110A and 110B. But they all use
air to provide the force necessary to open that latch.
On the older cars (R1-42) there is a "cutting valve" in the cab.
This is an ordinary open/shut valve, except the shaft is hidden
deep inside a slot, and you need a special tool, called a "cutting
key" to operate the valve. When you turn the valve, it admits
air into a small pipe which runs down to the H2C coupler.
That, in turn, operates a relay valve inside the head which
admits air pressure to the uncoupling piston. Then various
complicated things happen with the electric portion slide,
but let's not get into that.
On newer cars, there is no cutting valve. There is a switch
in the cab which applies battery voltage to a wire. The wire
runs down to the coupler and works a magnet-valve which applies
the air to the uncoupling piston. I've never worked with the
O-B couplers such as the R-46, but I know Steve has extensive
knowledge of these beasts.
In all cases, there are manual releases that one can turn to
break the coupling from the ground without air. Because of
the force required to release the latch, you need special
wrenches to give you enough leverage.
The description above applies to subway and MU cars but not to RR freight or (most) non-MU passenger cars. On those, there is a coupler lift bar that must be manually raised to open the couplers. The air hoses separate when pulled apart by the moving car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The ACMU has a standard RR coupler, as did the MP-54s, and Lacawanna cars. I think Budd (via the PRR) was the ones who got those weird MU couplers popular, they seemed to have started to appear around the time of the Silverliner / MP-85 cars. Just a theroy though :) I know the LIRR had teething problems with their at first, not sure who else....
Actually, I saw the ACMU in GCT yesterday, they have the standard 'tightlock' coupler, rather than a normal RR coupler. All passeger equipment has it nowadays, and Amtrak requires it before they'll even think about hauling your PV.
-Hank
Where exactly does the cutting key go? Is it anywhere near the reverse key?
In general, there are 3 B3C cutting valves per coupler. The most commonly used one is naturally the one in the cab. The correct procedure being:
I)Set a hand brake on the car(s) you are leaving.
II)Activate the cutting valve with the cutting key.
III)Insure that both locks have broken.
IV)Throw the reverser (reverse) and charge the train. (charging is done after the uncoupling for 2 reasons)
1) The segment you are leaving should not be charged to prevent brakes from releasing.
2) Cutting before charging permits 110 PSI in the lock cylinder but only 90 PSI if the train is charged first.
V) Hit the bypass and back up until the couplers seperate.
VI) Dump the train.
In addition, there are two other cutting valves, under the end of the car body on either side of the car. They are used for unusual cuttingf situations or if the primary cutting valve fails.
what about charging brake system and putting into emergency first before applying the handbrakes?
I think that's by rule (for safety) and not a necessary procedure for the cutting. The purpose would be to ensure that there is air in all brake cylinders prior to cutting.
Yes. the reason is safety. If you charge and dump the train before applying handbrakes (and then beginning the cutting process) you are insuring that the brake shoe is up against the wheel with the strongest application(emergency). Thus when you crank the handbrake, the chain can only be tightened as far as it will go. If there were no air on the cars you were cutting away from and the shoes were not on the wheel, when you crank the handbrake you would be applying the shoe to the wheel, it would not already be up against the wheel.
What is the reason we are still charging and dumping SMEE trains anyway? The main reservoir becomes the emergency air on SMEE equipment through the emergency vent valve, doesn't it? I believe this rule was written with prewar R-type cars in mind (ME-23). With freight cars auxilary reservoir air is initially fed from the brake pipe, therefore with a fully charged brake pipe and equallized reservoir, you would still have brakes released until you dump or reduce the brake pipe. When cars are bugged in barns even those that have bad order air compressors will still apply their brakes after being coupled to the horses.
Thanks for the info. I'm still curious as to where the cutting valve in the cab is specifically located (this would be on SMEE cars). To tell you the truth, my initial source of information was the Pelham 1-2-3 novel, FWIW. I get the impression that the cutting key is inserted somewhere below the reverse key. Or am I way off the mark?
On all equipment except for the R-44 & R-46, the B3C cutting valve will be found just left of the brake valve stand. The key is inserted upward at about a 45 degree angle (handle pointing down). The key is then rotated approximately 90 degrees (handle now pointing up) and kept in that position until the cars are cut.
I remember reading that Belmont used to hail the Mineola on 42nd st and that there was a special spur or something of that nature built for it. Can someone provide me with the details about that?
Quoting from Stan Fischler's 1997 book The Subway (a revised and expanded version of his classic Uptown, Downtown), page 58:
"The private car was stored on a siding just north of the southbound platform at what is now the 42nd Street Shuttle's Grand Central Station stop."
The car is at the Shore Line Trolley Museum in East Haven, Connecticut.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have the book and I read that. Does anyone have more details?
The Belmont Hotel stood at the southwest corner of 42 Street and Park Avenue, it was replaced by the Central Airlines Terminal Building and is now used by a college I believe. The platforms of the shuttle are centered on Vanderbilt Av and 42 Street and the line curved south onto to Park Av actually undercutting Belmont's Hotel. It would have been an easy matter to construct a small access between the hotel basement and the wall of the subway and since Belmont was the President of the Company I don't think anyone would have complained if he stopped his train on the main for a few minutes to load a special party.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually there was no siding as such in those days. Boarding was directly onto track 1 on the present 42 Street Shuttle which still connects to the southbound Lexington Av Local track (MM4). Today this stretch of track might be refered to as a siding but in those days it was the southbound local.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, are you sure? I've read (in more than one place, although on a quick check Fischler's book was the only one I could find with a specific reference) that although the boarding was done on the local track, as you indicated, there was a spur track just north of that point where the car was stored when not in use.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: Looking at a 1912 track map I can see where the reference to a siding may have come from. Approaching Grand Central (Shuttle) from the north tk 1 (mm4) jogs a little to the south to accomadate the island platform, there is a facing point switch into tk 2 (MM2) and the switch track ends in a bumper. It is possible that this short tail track was long enough to accomate the "Mineola" but could not have been used for boarding as it would have meant crossing tk 1 at grade and still would have been somewhat further west of Belmont's Hotel.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for the info. Is there a copy of that map online or somewhere in a book that I could find it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: See the New York Division Bulletin of October 1989 and January 1990 for a the trackmaps. If you can't get a copy get back to me and I'll mail them to you. It seems as though the track connection was broken in 1975 when track two was isolated from the other tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks, I'll try and locate a copy - I'm a national member but not a member of the Division.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where do you get a copy of those in NYC? Because I'll ask you if you can send them to me if you don't know of a place.
Contact the
New York Division
Electric Railroaders Association
PO Box 3001
New York, New York 10008-3001
For a nominal fee ($1.50 I think) they will mail you the issue you want.
Larry,RedbirdR33
P.S.
- Within the Times Square end of the Shuttle is a door still marked "The Knickerbocker". It doesn't open, but it's right there for all to see.
- Also, as has been said several times before. Belmont many times ran this car to Atlantic Ave where there was a switch that allowed him to continue his trip on the LIRR.
- The Mineola is one of two "private" cars in the Shoreline/Branford collection, the other is #500, used by the Connecticut Company to inspect it's trolley lines. The latter can be boarded, with permission, from the staff there.
Mr t__:^)
Where was this switch that allowed Belmont to continue his trip on the LIRR? Does it still exist, and could it be used today to provide thru service?
The switch was located at the point where IRT northbound (current 2/3) track met with the LIRR (there is still a remnant of this spur -- just a "cubbyhole" type of thing going into the IRT tunnel wall at the shared LIRR/IRT 2/3 Atlantic Ave. platform. Look for it at the northern-most end of the platform).
Doug aka BMTman
There has been much debate over whether this switch actually existed. It was undoubtedly planned but whether it was actually installed is good fodder for debate. Many knowledgible people have come down on both sides.
There are no obsticles at Atlantic Ave & Belmont did have the car & the race track did have his name. I would say if it LOOKS, WALKS & QUACKS like a duck it's probally a duck ?
On the serious side ... what else did he use the private car for ?
Mr t__:^)
Now to probe deeper...
When was Belmont Park built?
When was the LIRR spur installed?
When was the LIRR spur electrified?
When did Belmont part ways with the IRT?
When indeed was the Main Line electrified past Jamaica?
Early electrifications centered on the Rockaways and Long Beach. Hempstead (Belmont Park) was the first Main Line route to get juice!
If he used Mineola on the LIRR, it was probably to a south shore beach.
From what I know about the "Minnie", she would take the LIRR Flatbush route out to Jamacia, with her route ending at Belmont raceway, where the parks' nameshake would have her put on a siding till departure time.
Doug aka BMTman
Are you sure about the obstacles? If a connecting track existed it would have cut across the part of the current waiting area, making it difficult for people to get to/from the IRT to 3 of the 4 LIRR tracks, or else cut off the tracks from some of the street entrances.
From what I know the switch-over was between the northbound IRT 2/3 track and what would have been the current #1 LIRR track at the terminal. Since the turn-out occurred at the very north-end of the IRT platform, the bulk of the waiting area would not have been disturbed. Also to remember -- this is back in the 1920's, so the configuration of that platform would have been much different than it is today.
Doug aka BMTman
I took my two little soccer girls to the Women's World Cup at Giants Stadium. I hadn't been to the Meadowlands for 15 years. I probably won't go back for 15 more.
I left 2 1/2 hours to get there. It is usually a 40 mintute trip (at 7 a.m. on a weekend -- we use that route to drive upstate, but we usually only drive off peak). Perhaps it was some kind of protest, but a bunch of truckers jacknifed their tractor trailers all over NJ at the same time. We barely made it. The bus would have been no option -- it would have been stuck on the same roads.
All things considered, I'd rather walk three long blocks from 34th Street and 8th Avenue. Those NIMBY nuts who say a West Side stadium would be bad for the environment because its far from mass transit are crazy.
Not to get too far off topic, but in another thread you've been complaining about the lack of money available for education in NYC. So you'd rather spend what money is available on entertainment instead of education too? In my opinion, that is one of the major problems we as a society have - we've become far too concerned with entertaining ourselves and our children instead of educating them. Not that entertainment doesn't have its place - it does - but it shouldn't be a priority.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Larry, The NEXT time you have an opportunity to go to Giant Stadium, use Route 3 & Lincoln or Holland tunnels. You'll also need to figure out just where to park on the south side of the parking lot so you can make a fast exit. But, please don't tell anybody.
P.S. For Long Islanders this is only good on the weekend when cross-town traffic is very light.
Mr t__:^)
I did use route 3 -- that's where the tractor trailer flipped. First I inched my way to the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel (wouldn't even think of trying a free bridge. Then I inched my way through the Holland, which crawled. Then I made route 3, which stopped. Unfortunatley, I didn't have a Hudson County map to figure out which, if any, other roads would take me over the river.
There are only a few times a week where driving in NYC is sane. Thank God I don't have to drive to work every day.
I could still drive on Rt. 3 blindfolded, as many times as I've been on it. I still remember when Giants Stadium didn't even exist. By the time construction began, we had moved to Connecticut.
I was wondering why LIRR couplers on the MUs have some sort of pointy
metal bar in front. It looks like a spike almost. What is that for? Electric connections?
The LIRR coupler is I believe called an "N-2-A" type. Basicaly, the big spike with the hole next to it creates the mechanical connection between cars, below that is a door that covers the electrical half. As the trains couple, the door flips down and retracts out of the way, exposeing the electrical connector. Note that this connector only carrries control signal, not power. There's supposedly an air connection in there too - I can't find it.
The air connections are the 'holes' above and below the coupler. The 'spike thing' makes the mechanical connection that holds the cars together.
-Hank
njt uses that coupler on some of it equipment(mu's). i have also seen some gp-40's carry emergency couplers(on fuel tanks).
The Long Island has a different arrangemet for the air connections than the other users of N2A couplers.
The air port for main resivoir air as been sealed and only brake pipe air flows between cars.
NJT also has a spare brke pip hose with an angle cock under the coupler for when the adapter is used between an MU car and a locomotive. ArrowII and 3 cars have a gradual relase brake system like coaches. M cars can't have the brakes applied in service this way. Only emergency applications. The M1 used to have a diverging valve so they could be hauled by locomotive. LIRR took it off because it cost too much to maintain when it was used so rarely.
Friday night I went into the city to celebrate my bday. I boarded R33 9279 @ Utica. I look at the front to see if the motorman was in there and took a peek at the sign. Instead of saying Woodlawn-Jerome, it just said Woodalawn Road. The lettering was real skinny.........
There are lots of old signs on the No.2 Lines R 33'S. Some still have Gun Hill Road and White Plains as a North Terminal now on the Newer signs Gun Hill is not there.
A while back I too boarded a #6 Redbird at 77th Street and the side roll sign had the number 6 in a bright yellow circle instead of green...now that's going back a while.....
Does anyone know why the Brooklyn Bridge is being shut down for rehab -- again? I doesn't make you feel confident about the work on the Manhattan.
there was alot of discussion about this a couple of months ago in the papers. DOT is calling them emergency repairs so they can get them done quickly. they found failures in the deck, which was redone in the 1950's i think. the last time it was closed was for repaving which now has to be ripped up again.
How come many subway stations have covered up their beautiful mosaic walls? I notice that some stations have like a modern wall(eg. 28th St. N,R) or some have a 50's type of style wall(eg. Canal Street N,R). At these stations and many others you can see the mosaics around the token booth only or at the end of the platform and then these damn walls seem to cover up the mosaic tiles for the rest of the platform.
Those mosaics have a lot of history behind each tile. I prefer the mossaics over any type of style. Is there any reason to why the MTA made the foolish mistake by covering them up?
I"m not sure exactly why but I think that in the 70s when the Broadway BMT stations were remodeled, (at least 28, 23, 8, and Prince), the idea of preservation wasn't as prominent as today. If you notice stations like 34th St. on the IND and BMT, Canal (on the current N/R... not the bridge [I think you were refering to the Canal-Lafayette [IRT] station... the N/R one is nice and newly remodeled] ) you have modern 90s takes on mosaics which, while they aren't the original mosaics, are much better than the bland 50s - 70s stuff you see elsewhere. Although, I'm hardly an expert on this subject.
Mike
In 1970 new walls were put up at the BMT side-platform stations from Fifth Ave.-59th Street all the way to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. 49th Street, the station with red walls, was done a little later. At the time, the MTA was aiming for a "uniform" appearance for its stations. Fortunately, the program was not continued, probably because the MTA did not have the money during the 1970s.
The old walls are underneath. You'll notice that at Fifth Ave. and Courtlandt St. stations the 1970 walls have been removed and the mosaics restored.
There is one unusual aspect at the 28th St. station on the BMT Broadway (N/R) line. There is a fake wall at the northern end of each platform about a car's length from the tunnel entrance, beyond which can be seen the original mosaic. I wonder if the station was lengthened a bit more than planned by accident or some other reason. A 10-car train of 60-footers fits in the station when the first car comes right up to the fake wall.
This thread reminded me of the question I had of why the mosaic "161st St" bow is painted over on the #4 Yankee Stadium platform (The concrete section at the stairs) I was hoping they would get some paint thinner and remove it, but whenever they repaint the station, the keep painting over it.
Mosaics rule---and whoever decided to cover them up at the MTA shoud lose their job. What exactly are they really trying to cover up???????????????
>What exactly are they really trying to cover
up?<
The fact that they can't afford the beautiful art they used too be able to? That or the fact that nothing made today compares with the old stuff...
Mike
Today's philosophy seems to be "old is new again". Many classic Heins-LaFarge and Vickers mosaics have been unearthed and lovingly restored. Steve B. has pointed out Cortlandt Street and 5th Avenue on the Broadway Line. The Cortlandt Street station is an exact reproduction of the old 1918 tile, installed with loving care during 1996 and 1997. Fifth Avenue is another story - what you have there is the original tile band there at the top of the station wall. Apparently the placement of the 1970 tile did not damage the original work there significantly.
It would be nice to see the original works restored at places like Prince Street, 8th Street etc. At 8th Street, one lonely icon remains at the south end of the southbound platform, near the stairs to Waverly Place.
I will comment more on this as I read through the numerous posts.
Wayne
Actually, someone else brought up Cortlandt St. and 5th Ave. I brought up the overextended platforms at 28th St.-Broadway.
At the unused Canal St BMT bridge platforms, they removed some of the rectagular tile, and on top you could see the original "B" icons, but they've covered them back up. (This is pretty historic. It reflects the tine when this line was to go straight across, and not up Broadway. So it was orginally the "Broadway" station.)
Was it ever formally called Broadway or has it always been known as Canal Street?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
By the time it was opened, it was aligned with Broadway, so it was probably always known as Canal St. Though I've never seen any maps from around 1915 when it opened.
So, does anybody have information about where the line would have gone if not up Broadway?
This was Construction Route # 20 "The Canal Street Subway." It was to run west on Canal Street to West Street and have a two track loop at that point. There were also to be connections into Construction Route #5 "The Broadway-Lexington Avenue Subway." The Canal Street Route was revised in 1909 and 1910 and the planned "BROADWAY" Station on Canal Street was moved east to a point between Cortlandt Alley and Centre Street although it retained the "Broadway" name,this station was later renamed"BROADWAY-CANAL STREET" by adding enamelled metal signs to the original mosaic. Some time after the Chrystie Street Connection openned this station was renamed again to "CANAL ST-CHINATOWN" in both english and Chinese letters.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Brian Cudahy speaks of an unused tunnel under Canal St. in Under the Sidewalks of New York which was supposed to continue across Manhattan to the Hudson River. It can be seen from the front of a train as it takes the curve to Broadway, so it will be something to look for when Broadway express service resumes.
You can just go down to the platform now. However, they have built some room or something in the space.
I thought the unused tunnel only extended a little ways down, not all the way to the Hudson.
You're probably right. Brian Cudahy doesn't say exactly how long that unused tunnel is.
You just can't convince me that the polar bear families at Fifth Ave are original (or the penguins). And for a real treat, walk the halls and mezzanine of this station for a look at the rest of the zoo.
They are not. They were installed during the recent renovation. The yellow border tile AND the white tile is also new. The tablets and the intricate Squire J. Vickers frieze and icons are original.
I call that the Vickers Diamond "X" design. There is another example of this at the 138th Street (Mott Haven - note the "MH" icons there) station on the #4 and #5 lines.
Wayne
They appear to be doing the same thing at 14 St. - Union Square.
Somebody at the MTA was just absolutely in love with the blue-and-white/silver color scheme back in the late 60s and early 70s. They re-did virtually all the BMT Broadway/Fourth Ave. local stations that way, introduced the same colors for the R-42s/44s/46s and repainted all the Redbirds as well as the R-7s and R-9s the same way. All while the preventive maintenance program was allowed to wither away, leading to the sorry service of the late 70s and early 80s. Getting rid of all the cinder block tile design would be a good way to erase that awful period from the system's visual history.
Yes---I meant the Canal Street Station on the 6 train. That station sucks. It's so dull looking. Take down the walls there.
What's up w/ Union Sq.? So much history and mosaic tiles at that station. i noticed that some cheap white wall with a floral pattern on the top have covered up the original mosaics. You can see broken pieces of this cheap wall revealing the mosaics.
Someone must stop the insanity!!!!! Doesn't the MTA have better projects to invest their time and $$$$ into then this crap????
[nasty tiles] I agree.. they're ugly. Another question I have is at Union Square, what's up with those red window frame things? They look like fire extinguisher boxes. Some sorry attempt at interior decorating from the MTA. Also what's with the plastic enclosed old mosaics there... either preserve them or put in new versions of them don't leave that ugly plastic up.
Mike
I remember reading a bit about the new Union Square decor scheme when renovation first began (how many years ago now?): they hired some artist or other to help them out, who came up with the red boxes idea to give peekaboo glimpses through walls at earlier layers of decoration, at the spaces beyond, or (most annoyingly) at slivers of mirror. I'm not sure the concept was well suited for Union Square, which is now one of the more transparent and open in the system anyway, and as executed it sure looks silly. The new tile program is no prize either, I'm afraid, but at least circulation is easier with the revised layout.
You're referring to the passageways in the mezzanine, correct? I agree, this is not the proper substitute for the original tile. There are glimpses of the original "Canarsie Line" tile inside red frames. These tiles were sea green, yellow ochre, light blue, dark blue and medium olive green. It's a shame they covered them up.
Wayne
They did a wonderful job at 5th Ave./60th. St. I would hope the old tile mosaics are still in good condition at the other stations, especially along Broadway in Manhattan. The mosaics along the 4th. Ave. local are older and almost as boring as the new 70's look they sport now.
BTW, I think the best mosaics ever conceived are the one decorating the stations along the Canarsie line in Brooklyn, especially Montrose Ave. I wish that mosaic could be duplicated on a more heavily used line so it could be enjoyed by more people.
The 7th Ave (Brooklyn) station on the D&Q still has the original mosaics in the same style as the Broadway line (of which it used to a part). It's probably the only one not covered in the 70s.
the 7th Ave. staton is newer than the 4th Ave. line and looks a lot like the stations did along Broadway before they were re-done in the 70's.
Exactly how old are most of these mosaics? Are they from 1904 when the subway opened up?
There's something goin on at Union Sq-----I hope the MTA is not tearing down any mosaics cause there are huge gaps inbetween some mosaic designs there and some tiles are exposed from that dumb white wall that covered it up.
Louie
The Canarsie Line mosaics are from two distinct periods:
1924 (6th Avenue, Union Square, 3rd Avenue, 1st Avenue, Bedford, Lorimer, Graham, Grand and Montrose), and
1928 (Morgan, Jefferson, DeKalb, Myrtle, Halsey, Wilson and Bushwick-Aberdeen).
All are ceramic except for Montrose, Wilson and Bushwick-Aberdeen, which are cut porcelain.
For exact opening dates of each station, AND more details on the mosaics themselves (materials, dimensions, composition), visit The Canarsie Line Page.
As for Union Square, are you referring to the "L" station? Last time I was there, they had completed installing the panel tile (plain white with sea-foam green border), and they had left the original frieze intact above it. It appeared that they had even attempted to clean parts of it. I was there last on May 15, 1999.
Wayne
I must admit the Montrose Ave. station is probably the best looking design of its type in the entire system.
With regard to the choice and placement of colors for overall effect, I would have to agree with you.
There are 14 colors in the Montrose Avenue mosaic band:
Background: Greyed Lavender (mauve), Raspberry, Jet Black, Black Grape (they both look black at first glance, but an up close look reveals that some are more purplish)
Center: Cerulean Blue, White, Canary Yellow, Jasmine Yellow, Rose Pink
Edges, borders, accents: True Blue (Deep Cerulean Blue), Chinese Blue, Henna Red, Dusk Rose.
There are a few green tiles in the mezzanine tile band as well.
The tablets contain an additional 15 colors:
Center: Ultramarine Blue, Jet Black, Black Grape, Raspberry, Grass Green
First cut: Indigo Blue, (ultramarine), Sienna Brown
Second cut: Deco Yellow, Canary Yellow, Orange, Peach, Beige
Third cut: 40% French Grey, Terra Cotta brown, Topaz Yellow
Mr.Vickers really outdid himself on this one.
Wayne
Click here to view it
Actually, Atlantic Avenue has some of it as well - on the southbound track wall only. It isn't quite the same as the Broadway Line, although it is similar. It is the same as the IRT stations from Bergen Street to Utica Avenue. Note the little upside-down square bracketsat the top of the vertical separator bands, and also the lack of diamond or other angular shapes except at the top of the frieze. Some of the Broadway stations had 2½" diamonds at the top of the separators and the icons did not extend below the bottom of the frieze proper as they do at 7th Avenue and the IRT stations.
Mr. Vickers had about a dozen distinct styles that he employed in his works. Some lines (i.e. the Pelham Bay line from 3rd Avenue to Hunts Point Avenue) used a different style at each and every station.
Wayne
(a faithful fan of Squire J.Vickers)
Yes, the MTA did try to go with a standard silver and blue color scheme after it took over.
What seems notable is that the IND subway cars before the R-7s seem to have never gotten an exterior paint job during their entire careers. (Many of them still had a faded "City of New York" in gold letters.) Also, the old IRT and BMT cars that were retired in the 1960s seem to have gone decades without new paint. The Board of Transportation and the Transit Authority must have been very stingy with paint during the 1940s and '50s. I wonder if this went beyond a need to save money. Apparently the appearance of subway cars was given little priority during this time. People rode because they had to; there seemed to be little interest in enticing new riders.
I think it was the growing problem of graffiti that led to all the cars being painted during the late 60's. The older r1's - r6's were probably left alone because they were due to be retired soon anyway. I think that by 1976 the MTA grew tired of continually repainting subway cars and just let graffiti get out of control.
However this doesn't explain why the city painted all the r-2730's and a few r10's that ugly shade of red in the early 60's. (not quite the same color as the r30's and the redbirds were painted in the 1980's)
I also remember back in the early 80's (when my father took me to Shea Stadium) that many of the cars on the 7 line were painted white. This seems like an invitation to graffti "artists" and I was always curious why that color was chosen.
The TA painted the cars white since they figured they'd be easier to repaint once they were subsequently graffitied. There doesn't seem to be much logic to this argument, but it is the TA we're talking about.
I heard that the white paint had some sort of grafitti replling properties. One explanation was that it was a "teflon-vased" paint, which when run through the car washers, would make the grafitti run right off the car, but that explanation sounded pretty absurd to me. Never heard of "teflon-based" paint since.
For a full explanation I'll defer to the chemists out there, but the polymers used in Teflon, SilverStone, and other non-stick finishes have been used in paint formulas designed for ease of cleaning. These paints have numerous uses; there's a country store and grill that I frequent when I'm back home in North Carolina that has "refinished" its countertops with this type of paint, and back in the early '80s the 7-11 stores used this type of paint on their cash registers - IBM wouldn't mold them in orange like they wanted. Up to a point, it worked, but after a few years they looked terrible! (I worked for IBM in the cash register organization back in those days and would often point out "my babies" with pride - except in a 7-11 store, where if I would ever have been asked I would have denied all connection with those hideous beasts.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I lile the original tiled mosaics too. Lex and 59th, Lex and 51st, Astor Place and Spring St have preserved their heritage. Beautiful stations with the original mosaics still up. And eve the original plaques.
Ditto for 7th Avenue (D/Q), the Flushing line underground stations (where tile is present - check out Vernon-Jackson for a real color blast), AND the entire Canarsie Line. Also the 7th Avenue IRT has a large number of original plaques and mosaics, many nicely restored, and augmented by new additions here and there.
Wayne
Actually, I think the MTA began painting cars with the silver and blue scheme in 1969 or '70. The graffiti problem began a little later; it was pretty apparent around 1972 and out of control by 1974.
It is true that the TA painted some cars red in the early 1960s.
May guess - maybe somebody can confirm this - is that the BMT and the IRT didn't repaint cars in the 1920s and '30s because they lacked money. When the city took over in 1940, they just continued this "tradition" for the next twenty years.
The BMT had a repainting program in the 1940's and they did indeed repaint many of their woodsided cars.
Karl B
The MTA started their repainting binge in 1971 with some of the R-17 cars on the Lex -- the R-42s arrived with the new sliver and blue scheme. The graffiti outbreak didn't really get started until late 1972; when the painting first began (with that green and grey interior) there only a few "Taki 183" graffiti scrawls to be seen around the subway (and in all of the stairways at Madison Square Garden)
The BMT was taken over by the Board of Transportation in 1940, so it must have been a city project. Or was the repainting done before 1940?
It was an ongoing project at the end of WW II right up to 1950. It may have even continued into the 1950's but I was not in position to tell for sure after the Last Lex. The wood cars were much in need of attention with peeling paint and in some cases no paint left at all. As a teenager I kept a list of the cars painted as they appeared. The roofs were painted gray, the sides green, and all the end platform hardware black. I'm pretty sure that the C's and the Q's were being done too but I was not in position to observe. A newly painted gate car in that shade of green was a sharp looking car but the weather was not kind to the green paint. It soon looked like a grayish black.
Karl B
The Qs were redone in maroon or similar shade when they were returned to the BMT after the 3rd Ave. el closed up shop.
It didn't take long for the new R units to turn color from olive drab to grimy flat black when they entered service. The subway is a pretty hostile environment.
Do you know what color the Q's appeared to have been before they were painted maroon?
I believe car interiors were repainted every so often. This certainly was the case with the R-1/9s over the years. The two-tone green and two-tone blue interior schemes which I remember were not original.
Exteriors are a different story. For instance, many of the R-1/9s were never repainted except for the handful on the Eastern Division which received the silver and blue treatment. On top of that, car washers weren't installed until the 60s, and when those cars were washed for the first time, the gold "City of New York" lettering reappeared after being obliterated by grime for years and years.
That red shade was also applied to other earlier R units which were originally decked out in olive drab, namely R-16s. Some R-17s got the red treatment back then as well. I remember seeing the R-27/30s in both olive drab and red before the silver and blue scheme came along.
The WF R-36s were skipped over during the first round of silver/blue repainting in 1970-71. Some were redone during the second round of silver/blue in 1979-80.
As I recall, the cars were still pretty clean as late as 1971. It wasn't until 1972 that the epidemic really hit hard, by which time I was a very infrequent visitor to the city. There was an "In the News" feature hosted by Christopher Glenn on Saturday mornings which was about the graffiti problem in New York. It also showed an R-32 being scrubbed clean by someone who got caught in the act.
I heard that the MTA is going to remodel every station and get rid of all the mosaic tiles. Is ths true????
I hope to God that does NOT HAPPEN. I wil chain myself to a turnstile and have my girlfriends from Sunnyside join me.
I heard that the MTA is going to remodel every station and
get rid of all the mosaic tiles. Is ths true????
I hope to God that does NOT HAPPEN. I wil chain myself to
a turnstile and have my girlfriends from Sunnyside join
me.
No. The TA/MTA was into its "Wipe out the Mosaics" period between 30 and 45 years ago when the ugly rectangular tiles appeared on the IRT and the cider block blue tiles were plastered all over the BMT main line.
For the past decade, the MTA actually has been either restoring the old mosaics or creating new ones as part of its station renovations.
The mid-50s tiles on the IRT local stations above Times Square are being ripped out and replaced with the `classic' NYC subway design, and it will be interesting to see if the MTA does any new mosaic creations on the uptown local platforms on the IRT Lex between Canal and Astor Place if and when those mid-50s tiles are removed.
At 66th Street they went even further and made brand new faience plaques. With the exception of Astor Place's recently-installed "A" plaques, I hadn't seen ANY new faience; all the faience in the system is original AFAIK. Anyway, this IS new, because Lincoln Center wasn't there in 1904, and they have an "LC" embossed on the plaques along with the "66". It is marvelous to see this art of faience resurrected.
For those who don't know what faience is, it is a special kind of terra cotta, which is fired in the potters' kiln twice. Most of the original plaques were made by Grueby Faience Company.
Wayne
How old are the plaques at Astor Place, Spring, Bleeker and 33 St stations on the 6 line? they are beautiful and mostly in good condition. ..............The plaques at Bleeker could use a little polishing up though.
PS----the newer plaques added at Astor Plce are nice, but don't seem to fit in. Too bad there weren't extra beaver plaques stored smewhere for future use.
The Beaver plaques at Astor Place AND the Eagle plaques at 33rd Street, as well as the Santa Maria plaques at 59th Street, Wreath plaques at 103rd Street and the Columbia Seated plaques at 116th Street are ALL ORIGINAL, dating from 1904.
They were made by the Grueby Faience Company of Boston, MA.
Faience is a type of terra-cotta ceramic which goes into the firing kiln twice.
Wayne
Wow----that's way cool Wayne....but what happened to the rest of the station at Astor Place and many others for that matter? The beaver plaques are focused primarily around the entrance/exit areas. Some ugly newer kind of plaque seemed to have replaced where other beaver plaques probably were.
One of the beaver plaques is on display at the Transit Museum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Astor Place station, and others, as originally built were VERY short. Take Astor Place as an example: The part that currently has the beaver plaques was the entire station back in 1904. Sometime in the 1930's or 1940s, the platforms were lengthened. Astor Place's lengthened platforms had tile similar to what you now see at Spring Street - an IND style tile band but with simple square icons with sans-serif letters. In the early 1960s, the northbound platform extensions were covered in the aqua (some of the east side) or rose pink (west side) tiles you now see. On the west side, they did it on the southbound platforms as well.
During renovation at Astor Place, they redid the platform extensions with the new terra-cotta "A" plaques (yes, they are faience) and the vertical "ASTOR" tiling. They wanted something that would be somewhat modern, but at the same time, harmonious with the historic original part of the station.
The beavers stand for "ASTOR", as in John Jacob Astor, a famous businessman who made his fortune in the beaver fur trade, and was also a passenger on the Titanic's fateful voyage. The eagles at 33rd Street (and, originally, also at Brooklyn Bridge), stand for nothing in particular - just a nice motif. The wreath at 103rd Street is purely decorative, as are the shields at Canal and Spring, and the twin cartouches at 28th Street.
For some nice old-vs-new, take a ride up Lenox Avenue and check out the old shields and cartouches restored alongside the 1920s marble tile versions of the same, and the new 1990s versions (not quite as nice). A real treat are the community-inspired mosaics depicting Harlem history. 145th Street isn't done yet, but I hear they're working on it. And the Heins-LaFarge tile tapestries at 110th Street are nothing short of lovely.
Wayne
Thanks Wayne!
Just a historical correction, the John Jacob Astor who made a fortune in the fur trade, and after whom Astor Place was named, was not the Astor who went down on the Titanic. IIRC, that was the original Mr. Astor's grandson.
I stand corrected. He had the same name, but was the Great-grandson of the original John Jacob Astor. This according to my "Disasters" book, taking reprints from NY Times Articles dating back to the Chicago Fire of 1871.
Thanks,
Wayne
I would be willing to trade a few New York City "MetroCards" for some recently-expired monthly passes issued for riders of the Miami-Dade Transit Agency's Metrobus and Metrorail network in Dade County, Florida.
Andres Greene
Got any PSTA or HART passes?
No, unfortunately, I do not have any bus passes from any city in Florida.
I've recently found something in my neighborhood worthy of the same place as the Beverley/Beverly Road problem in Brooklyn.
There is a local street called V-O-D-G-E-S. At the intersection of Vine and Vodges, it is spelled as above on street signs.
But at the intersection of Race and Vodges(2 blocks south) the sign is spelled V-O-G-D-E-S.
This has actually confused drivers as I have been asked how to get to V-O-D-G-E-S after they see V-O-G-D-E-S and no V-O-D-G-E-S Street.
Silly, huh?
I always had a problem with Elderts Lane. This is sort of an unusual street in that the east side of this street is Queens and the west side of the street is Brooklyn. No one could seem to agree on the spelling between Elderts Lane and Eldert Lane. Forty years ago when I lived in Brooklyn even the street signs were different from one intersection to the next. Someone told me that on the Brooklyn side it was to be spelled Elderts and on the Queens side it was to be spelled Eldert. To add to the confusion there was another street (I think in Bushwick) that was called Eldert Street. Has it ever been decided just how to spell Elderts Lane? I'm sure everyone realizes there is a station on the BMT Jamaica Line for this street.
Karl B
Highland Blvd, Hyland Blvd, and Hylan Blvd. have all been seen on signs, and even in adverts for stores along the road. (Hylan Blvd)
And just to confuse out of towners when locals give directions, there is actually a street named 'The Boulevard'
-Hank
Isn't "The Boulevard" in New Rochelle? If NYC has one too, I'd like to know where. The Boulevard in New Rochelle has neighboring streets called The Circle, The Sepentine, and several others. And the circular grassy area in the center of The Circle is called The Lawn.
As for confusing spellings, make sure you don't confuse Dyer Avenue with Dyre Avenue. One is in Manhattan and the other in the Bronx.
Because if you do confuse them, you'll be in Dyer OOPS.. Dyre OOPS... Dire Straits!
ha ha
How about the Prince's Bay Station on SIRTOA. Half the time it is referred to as Princess Bay.
The best one though has to be Pleasant Plains. According to Paul Matus in his Staten Island Book it used to be called "Skunk's Misery."
Larry,RedbirdR33
It says "Princess Bay" on my MTA map. Which is correct?
Chris; This is one of those things that get more and more confused when you look into it. I have a 1937 SIRTRy Map which calls it Princes Bay. I also have a 1962 SIRTRy Timetable which refers to it as Princess Bay in the timetable section and Princes Bay in the tarriff section. I was down there the other day and the station said Prince's Bay (Note the apostrophy). So I really can't answer your question.
LarryPS I still think "Skunk's Misery" is a good name for a station though.
The correct name is Prince's Bay. This is the name the postal service uses, and is the historically correct name. The multiple misnamings come from the vargaries of the english language, just like their, there, and they're. So there.
-Hank
Larry: Is that the same postal service that just printed a stamp of the Grand Canyon in Arizona?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yep....But this has been gone over and over in the Advance a few years ago. Apparently, it has to do with some english pronce who once owned much of the land south of what is now Huguenot Ave.
-Hank
Also, don't forget that every single borough in NY has a "Broadway". Now that can get confusing.
Don't feelbad, NYer's.....
Come out here to southern California -- Santa Ana/Irvine area specifically, and you will find the intersection of Main Street
and Macarthur Boulevard....TWICE within two miles. And it is the
same Main Street, the same Macarthur Blvd. Main runs south and
then swings east after crossing Macarthur, which runs east then
swings south.
No crazier than Washington, D.C. with its NE, SE, SW, and NW quadrants, all with the same street names. OK, I want to go to the intersection of 18th and D streets - there's FOUR such intersections in the city. (I'm using 18th and D as an arbitrary example, so please don't nitpick in case that just happens to be one where there's only three!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the TA just side-stepped the whole issue. The station is now referred to as "75th Street"
However, it used to be called "Elderts Lane"
Is it that I've never noticed this before or is it new-
This weekend, only 4 car trains were running on the El. I've never noticed that before. It hasn't always been like that, has it?
Hmm - I've never seen that before, either. It makes sense, though. Trains run fairly empty on the weekends - it always seemed like a waste to run 6-car trains. Hopefully they will make 4 cars standard practice on weekends. Less electrcity = longer until the next fare hike. Also less wear on the fleet.
They were running 4 cars for awhile on weekends and at nights, especially after the 40 day strike recently. It does make sense to shorten a train when the longer trains are'nt needed.
I think the ongoing weekend construction east of 5th St could be one reason that 4-car trains were in operation. When the line is fully operational, even on Sundays, I've seen 6-car trains in service. Usually, the 4-car trains don't come on until dusk.
Even with constructon elsewhere on the line they still ran with 6 cars. I hope this will be a permenant thing on weekends to run 4 cars. 4 cars do not run at dusk. As I am writing this I am looking and seeing a 6car train go by. They use to go to 4 at nights and weekends along time ago, and also when SEPTA came back from strike.
The schedule for the "D" line is still posted where the schedule for the "F" should be. The schedule for the "F" doesn't appear to be anywhere.
Are dogs allowed to ride teh subway?
No unless they are in a cage ofcause seeing eye dog are allowed so they can guide the blind so ofcause they would be on a leash.
I recall a story of about a year or so ago where a stray dog ended up going down into the subway and actually riding one of the lines!
Talk about turnstile jumping going to the dogs! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Actully dogs end up on Subway tracks once a week. Rideing on a train by its self is funny
And if a greyhound were to wind up on the tracks, he could outrun a train of R-68s easily.
I can't help but think of my niece when it comes to dogs. One of the first things she learned to say was "bow-wow". She's gotten over that now.
[And if a greyhound were to wind up on the tracks, he could outrun a train of R-68s easily]
As could a snail ...
No kidding.... Or a tortoise.
Seeing Eye dogs are, of course, permitted at all times. other dogs are permitted providing they can swipe their own metro-card.
How about Hearing Ear Dogs? In Maryland, they are considered just like Seeing Eye Dogs.
Yes, Hearing Ear dogs are permitted, as well as Therapy dogs - I'm not sure what one is, but am told it wears a day-glo orange harness.
Therapy dogs is a general classification used to refer to any type of dog used to provide mobility to someone who otherwise might not be able to get around as well. It includes seeing-eye and hearing-ear dogs, as well as dogs that are trained to accompany persons in wheelchairs or with specific disabilities - for example, a therapy dog might be a dog specially trained to open doors for someone with no arms, or to serve as a guide dog for a wheelchair-bound person who cannot move their body enough to identify a curb cut. The physicist Stephen Hawkins had a specially-trained dog for that purpose (among others).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was a dog in my hometown of Dorchester, MA which used to ride from Fields Corner to Savin Hill on the Red Line on a regular basis. He would enter under the turnstyles at FC, wait on the platform for a train, get on, brace himself for the motion, ride to SH and walk out of the car and up the stairs. I saw him do that several times, never going the other way though...
When will those R-142s arrive on the IRT Lines? Which redbird
cars will be the first ones to be replaced? Will it be the R-26s and
R-28s? Which line will the new R-142s operate on? Will the IRT Flush-
ing line (7) ever get new subway cars?
Why are the new R-143s only 60 feet long, but not 67 feet long?
Will they be in married-pairs? When the R-143s arrive, will there be
any more subway cars retiring from passenger service? Will these cars
only operate on the BMT L and M Lines, or will they be mixed through-
out the rest of the IND-BMT Lines?
I'm wondering will the IND and BMT Southern Division lines ever
get new cars in the new millennium? If they do will they be 67 feet
or 75 feet long? Which lines will subway cars built after the IND-
BMT Lines operate on?
James S. Li
Personally, my guess is that once all the cars are stainless steel and have air conditioning, you won't see many new ones for a long, long time. The reason -- many of the stations are rotted, the signal system needs a complete overhaul, new routes are needed, and new cars are needed to increase service. At every point, replacement cars will have to compete against those other priorities.
Basically, it would take a big plunge in MDBF, a system improvement the old cars cannot match, or an increase in the cost of maintenance to the point where new cars wouldn't cost that much more, to generate a re-order. So TWU car maintenance staff wull be competing against new train manufacturers. Can cars be retrofit for automatic train control? AC motors with regenerative braking?
I agree with Larry L. that, when the fleet is all A/C and all stainless, there won't be as much of a push for replacement, especially since (barring a major recession) fleet size needs to increase.
However, consider that the R32's are at the end of their planned obsolesence life (35 years). I think we could get another 10 years out of them, but I'm not sure the TA would keep them even that long, if they have a choice--and I think the R32's are about the best of the lot (Built by BUDD).
Just so the TA doesn't have the LIRR philosophy. The LIRR keeps up the roadbed well, but they let the equipment go to hell for years when they anticipate replacements.
The R-143s will be 60 feet long, linked into 4-car sets. They are slated to go into service on the L line first, I believe. I doubt if we'll see any more 75-foot cars, and 67-footers went out with the BMT standards, R-110Bs notwithstanding.
As for our beloved Redbirds, the first ones to go will most likely be the ones with the greatest amount of corrosion.
Car assignments at this point are speculative, although it has been mentioned that the Flushing line will receive R-62(A)s once there are sufficient R-142s on the property.
The Redbirds will go on a case-by-case basis. Each car will be evaluated, and they will be disposed of as necessary. First to go would most definately be the R33WF. Single units, no A/C, and they spend the majority of their time outdoors. I would expect that we'll see mix and match going on, as some cars in married pairs reach a condition where they are no longer useful faster than others.
-Hank
A friend of mine from Coney Island shops told me that The R38,40s, and the MK-42s. I dont understand why they would scrap any of those class of cars. They all are basically a good car. They should however scrap the r44-46,68s. Too long, you cant pass through them for saftey reasons and they are slow.
Two weeks ago a link to a newspaper article was posted on subtalk that all IND-BMT cars through the R44 would be scrapped in the next few years, and that more high-tech trains would be ordered. But more than just replacement trains, because the TA needs more trains than it has now. So, within the next five to ten years, my guess would be that the oldest train would be the R46, with maybe a few redbirds still hanging around. As for the R46 and R68 being retired, they still have quite awhile before their retirement. But I think the TA has learned their lesson on making such long cars, since the R143s will probably be 60 footers. For those who don't like the idea of the TA having tech trains instead of keeping things simple, I invite you to take a ride on Boston's Red Line stainless steele trains which were built by Bombardier, and give a nice, smooth ride. Not to mention that the computerized voices and next stop indicator signs are in compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act. I know that the test trains (R110) and right now the R142's are having their problems, but once the quirks are worked out (and they will be), you may find these new cars helpful, and safe. -Nick
I agree that the new Boston Red Line cars are a very nice car and now very reliable. The M-4s down here in philly I think will alway be troublesome likewise there cousins the N-5s. I think there a little to hi tech for SEPTA. They are high tech low performance cars. The Budds were a great car despite there defenciencies. Maybe somtimes RT cars need to be simple.
Those cars won't be going anywhere soon. The R40 and R42 would most likely be the first IND-BMT cars to go, as they have a history of problems and a low MDBF. It's now been 10 years since they were overhauled, and they are all over 30 years of age.
The R44/46 had their problems, and they were mostly sorted out by 1980. They were overhauled from 1990-92, and the cars themselves are less than 30 years old.
The only reason for the R143 being speced at 60' is because the only place the 75' cars CAN'T run is on the old BMT Eastern Division (J/M/Z/L) I would expect that without that limitation, they would order more 75' cars. Not being able to move between cars is not that big a problem (in an emergency, the doors can be unlocked trainline)
The R62/62A/68/68A are just nearing their 20th birthdays, and with the maintainance schedules now in effect, they won't need an overhaul.
-Hank
Considering that the NYCT will be 15 trains short once 63rd St. opens (given the current service plan), we'd be hard pressed to scrap any B division cars any time soon. Consultants have been evaluating the R-32 through 42 to see what is necessary to keep these cars in service for 5-10 additional years.
May I recommend new floors for the R-32s. They are for the most part in TERRIBLE shape. I can't believe how the plywood is so warped after only ten years. Especially the Pitkin fleet. Hopefully we will have an easier time using the flashing cement at TMNY.
(Consultants want to keep the R30 - 42 for 10 more years).
That may not be enough. New York City and State, and the MTA, are deep in debt despite the boom. The signals need to be replaced, and so do many of the buses. Someone will have to admit the Manhattan Bridge is not viable sometime, although if they simply cut BMT service in half economic decline would soon reduce the need for train service. Otherwise, they'll have to build a replacement. If new hybrid buses cut fuel use by half and pollution by more than half, which seems possible, then they'll provide more bang for the buck than new cars.
Then there are the other priorities. The NYS Board of Regents is trying to trick New York's politicians into educating NYC schoolchildren by forcing them to admit that they are not being educated now. And, Sheldon Silver is determined to raise New York's world leading Medicaid spending by increasing payments to providers by a couple of billion this year, soaking up all surplus dollars.
What ends a stainless steel subway car's life? Metal fatigue?
Frame damage, or a collision. Theoretically, with proper maintainence, they can run forever. If the steel frame us damaged, then it becomes a matter of cost of replacement.
-Hank
Stainless steel is pretty malleable - the body doctors can work wonders with it when it comes to repair. Look at what's going on with R40M #4461 and R40 #4260 - #4260's (side impact) intact nose and bonnet is being grafted onto #4461's (end damage) relatively intact body to make a new hybrid unit. Of course, if you have a catastrophic side impact incident (i.e. R32 #3669, R44 #5282, R62s #1437 and #1440), there's nothing left to save.
Wayne
scrapping r-32'2 to r-42's when they still work would be silly. Run them until they can't be used anymore. Why waste money on new cars when they're not needed yet?
I totally agree. Let's not forget about the Triplexes, which were sent to slaughter even though they were still in great shape. That was a grave mistake which hopefully will not repeat itself.
< I totally agree. Let's not forget about the Triplexes, which were sent to slaughter even though they were still in great shape. That was a grave mistake which hopefully will not repeat itself. >
That was the era when the TA was eliminating anything that required separate maintenance inventory or procedures.
If the TA were buying articulated equipment now, they could solve a lot of their problems at once, such as tight curves, problems passing between cars, maintaining redundant equipment on individual cars.
[re premature demise of Triplexes]
While they may still have been in decent shape when scrapped, the Triplexes at least had reasonably long lifespans - about 40 years on average, if I recall correctly. Compare them to the poor forlorn R30s, which barely made it to age 30.
a couple of train service supervisors said the R27/30 had plenty of life in them but the bean counters at 370 Jay Street felt that due to loss of ridership the loss of subway cars would never effect service.
The cars were stripped bare literally with parts used in other models...
[ scrapping too much equipment ]
I can't think of a time when the TA didn't scrap too aggressively.
You'd think an operation of the TA's size could keep a couple of hundred cars in standby for contingencies.
But where would they put them? Based on what I've read here, yard space is at a premium.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
< But where would they put them? Based on what I've read here, yard space is at a premium >
I shouldn't answer a question with a question, but: Where will they put the new equipment they'll have to buy for expanded service?
In a pinch, as in the past, they could store equipment on unused track or track space on existing lines. For 'B' division, one of the Sea Beach express tracks, for 'A' division, Dyre Avenue express--I'm sure there are other places.
I know such storage isn't ideal for security reasons, but it beats being in a chronic car shortage situation.
You could also add the Broadway express tracks in Manhattan. That's what they did during the winter months on weekends in the late 60s. It used to make so mad when I would get to Union Square all excited about a nice express run on an N train when I would look down the express track and see cars parked there. Then the N would pull in on the local track and make local stops.
BTW, only the pilot Triplex units made it to 40 years. The rest of them logged 37 years. The real irony is they received very little, if any, maintenance during their careers. Standardization was the battle cry during the mid-60s, and sadly, the Triplexes did not fall into that category.
I agree. That's also the reason why there isn't much pre-R-32 equipment to save for rapid transit museums. And of course except for the one set of D-types, all that glorious BRT/BMT limited cars like the Green Hornets and the first Budd series of cars (also including R-11 units -- save ONE) are history.
Doug aka BMTman
It's all a matter of timing. Sometimes a transit museum won't be in a position of being able to acquire cars as they're being retired. It could be due to lack of funds or space or interest, or a combination.
I noticed that Chicago's 4000-series L cars have found their way to several museums. Shore Line has one; Warehouse Point has, I believe, four; East Troy, WI has one; Illinois Railway Museum has at least four. The fact that they already had trolley poles didn't hurt.
i'm always accusing the bean counters of stuff so here we go again...
I've also felt that keeping some spare subway cars on the property for contingencies was a good idea. However storing excess subway cars wouldn't hurt but put those cars back into service would cost eitherway. Cars stored say on the Dyre Line middle tracks or Sea Beach cut would be open to vandalism.... I'm sure all the high priced people at Jay St and Livingston Plaza have all the riding statistics and car availability down to a science. The only reason new rolling stock is being purchased is to retire cars which are reaching if not already reached retirement. Supposedly the newer cars should be cost efficient in numerous ways which outweighs the cost to purchase.
The R142 is being purchased to replace most of the redbirds. The R143 will not replace anything, as the B division is heading for a severe car shortage.
-Hank
maintenance costs will be cheaper on the newer equipment it is claimed but hey its probably the new math right? only MTA would think this up..
I don't understand how maintanence cost will be cheaper, as these new trains have a bunch of new "gadgets" on them and more things to go wrong. The older R-32-42's are fairly simple cars.
Fairly simple, but with tons of mechanical moving parts. In the new cars, the propulsion controls will be done with electronics, rather than with cams and switches. The door motors will be 'screw-type', instead of a lever with multiple switches for control. They will have much simpler, sealed AC motors, rather than high-maintainece DC motors. The on-board computer will enable shorter inspections, because it will be able to tell the crew if there is a problem, and what type of problem it may be. Electronic destination signs mean you won't have to print and install hundreds of new signs each time you make serious service changes. And that's just some of it.
-Hank
Most of these, in theory at least, are improvements. Experience has taught us that there are teething problems with these systems, but once they are fully debugged they tend to work very well for a long time. The electronic signs are another story - they're a great idea in theory, but they're d****d near illegible under all but the ideal lighting conditions.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why doesnt the MTA use the LED luminator signs for the new subway cars as they did with their new buses?
They will, only by Telecite (at least for the R-143 contract), not by Luminator.
David
[Why doesnt the MTA use the LED luminator signs for the new subway cars as they did with their new buses?]
Because luminator signs are very prone to vibration, as well as steel dust (the units use a magnetic field to operate)
Subways vibrate a bit too much. They tested Luminator and the LCD signs before the overhaul was done, and they went with the backlit LCD. Best would be pure LED.
-Hank
I assume these signs will be yellow and black like the ones on the rebuilt R-46s. Has technology permitted the use of multi-colored luminator signs yet? Not just electronic signs, like the type you see at grocery stores, but actual luminators that would be easy to read, therefore appropriate for subway use. -Nick
Luminator is the name of the company that makes the sign. I honestly don't know if they own the patent to the technology; and I don't know if 'Luminator', as a term, has come to be the same as 'Xerox'.
The signs on the buses could, theoretically, be any color, as the dots can be painted or scotch-coted or whatever. AFAIK, the only color LCD (which are the type found on the R44/46) comes in is black, and can thus be shown an any background that it will contrast with; it can also be inverted (ie, instead of the letters showing as black with a clear border, they can show as clear, with a black border.)
LEDs, something else entirely, and used to supplement the flip dots on newer bus signs, come in cheap and expensive varieties. Among the cheap are Red, Yellow/Amber, Green, and Infra-Red. Among the expensive are all the other colors, and they are not yet all available.
-Hank
Blue is available. In the New NBC store in Rockefeller Center there is a hugle globe which contains a HDTV "theater". The outside of it is covered with red, green and blue LED's, which mix to form all colors. Blue LED's are also appearing on DVD players (there are several in the store used for video display.
They still are more expensive, but I hope the TA can get some kind of deal on them for the 143's.
Well, those front pixel signs on the R-32s are barely legible until the first car has reached you. The side signs on the R-44s and R-46s are quite legible, IMHO.
That largely depends on the lighting conditions. Under the right light you're absolutely correct, but under other conditions ... I may not have the best eyes in the world, but I'm not blind yet, and I just plain can't read them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I won't argue, except that I've never had a problem reading an R-44/46 side sign. My eyesight isn't exactly 20/20, either. With the R-44s, it's a no-brainer, since they're all on the A line. It's only the southbound destination you have to watch for.
And even THEN you can't see some of them, or "E" looks like "F", or "Q" looks like "O" or "G" looks like "C". If the glass is filthy (and it usually is) you can't tell what they say. The only letter that I can make out right off the bat is "A".
I wonder if #3698 ever got his glasses cleaned...
Wayne
Ok, I think it is well agreed on here that the letter display sign on the R32/38 is very hard to see. Now here's another question for you all to ponder: How about the "sleak" looking #2 on the R110A? I've only been on this train once, and didn't see the number display from a distance? Is it clear, or fuzzy? Should the MTA have similar signs for the R142/43? I do like the way the #2 looks with the black in the background, instead of just a solid red color. In fact, I'd go to say that all route circles should be black in the background instead of a solid color, cause it simply looks good, and "21st century like." But I also realize it would cost money to replace each one, so I guess I'll stick with the solids. -Nick
I believe that they're staying with the roll sign for the car end identification.
-Hank
They should use LED-flipdots, like on the new buses. Excellent visibility in both light and darkness
See my previous post on the problems of flipdots.
-Hank
I don't think these lower cost bs up ask MTA! lets see newer gadgets i think newer problems right? supposedly mechanical parts replaced by electronic ones the group switch box under the subway car which controls braking/propulsion in an 8 foot box weighing say around 1/2 ton replaced with one thats around 4 feet and without all the cams and switchs. MTA engineers and consultants claim all this new stuff should make for a more reliable and cost efficient subway car in the LONG RUN. lets not look to be saving a bunch of money right this minute...
Actually, E-Cam is proven technology. NYCT tested E-Cam on some "mainline" (non-picture-window) R-36 cars in the mid-1980s, and the R-44s have had them since overhaul, about 10 years now. Also, the "cam" in E-Cam refers to the same cams as on older equipment; only the control of the cams is electronic (engineers/maintainers, please correct me if I'm wrong on that count). E-Cam is less likely to burn up than earlier Westinghouse controllers (a persistent problem over the years), and it's more reliable in the winter since water vapor tends to get into the older controllers' air lines (the old WH controllers are air/electric).
David
[I don't think these lower cost bs up ask MTA! lets see newer gadgets i think newer problems right? supposedly mechanical parts replaced by electronic ones the group switch box under the subway car which controls braking/propulsion in an 8 foot box weighing say around 1/2 ton replaced with one thats around 4 feet and without all the cams and switchs. MTA engineers and consultants claim all this new stuff should make for a more reliable and cost efficient subway car in the LONG RUN. lets not look to be saving a bunch of money right this minute...]
I think there was a discussion about this issue a few weeks ago. Most transit agencies, if they have the money, will replace a class of cars before they start reaching a state of collapse and there is a lot of out-of-service equipment. (NJ Transit was in this position in the early 1980s when the Erie-Lackawana MUs were 50 to 70 years old.) I think the MTA tries for a 35-year life cycle on average. However, since they need to increase the size of the B division fleet, it will be a few years before they actually replace anything.
I think you have to look at it this way (which is also the way I told the bus people to look at it)
Overhauling, where you replace almost every mechanical part (for the subway cars, this meant new motors, new doors, new windows, new door motors, new A/C units, although I'm not sure if the controllers and trucks were replaced) gives you what is basically a new vehicle, mechanically. And with subway cars, as long as the major componants and the body continue to function as designed, there's no need to replace them.
-Hank
That is exactly why I feel that the R32 should be able to make it to age 50 - that would be approximately 25 years after their GOH. Ditto for equipment like the R38, R40 and R40M. I'm not so sure about the R42 and R44 making it to 50.
Wayne
I was at the MTA capital projects public hearing last night. For fiscal year 2000, the MTA proposes the following car purchases:
1. A Division: 325 new cars, "likely" to be assigned to Pelham and Jerome shops. This is in addition to 1,080 cars already ordered.
2. A division: 120 new cars to expand size of fleet.
(Would these numbers allow for retirement of all Redbirds? There is a statement that says, "The cars to be replaced are the R26, R28, R29, R33, and R36."
3. B division: 660 new cars, length of 60 feet, no assignments specified. (In addition to R143s already ordered.) Cars are "to replace aging B Division cars which will reach their useful life of 40 years in this period."
4. B division: overhaul of up to 665 cars for 12-15 years of further use. "Would include" R-32MK, R40M, and R42MK cars. (MK means Morrison-Knudsen?) Statement included: "Replacing every vehicle due for retirement in 2000-2004 period would be cost-prohibitive........[O]verhauls are a cost-effective alternative for some of the fleet."
BUDD:
They cannot scrap the 75 foot R-44s, R-46s and R-68s. They have
been running since 1972-1989. They are still in good condition. The
R-68s and R-68As are only 9-12 years old. You cannot scrap a car that
has been running for just 9 to 12 years.
James S. Li
Im not saying literaly to scrap those cars. I just dont like them and there just plain slow!!!!!!!!!!
I don't understand what you are talking about when you say that the R46's are slow. Have you rode them after the rebuilding. I think they are the fastest equipment the MTA has.
As of lately, even the R44's have begun to pick up speed.
The Rebirds or for that matter the 62s will go faster then a 44-46. One thing you cant deny is that the 68s are slow
Are you really sure they are slow, or do they just seem slow because they are a fairly modern car, and you don't feel that much movement. I've been on the R68, and frankly they go pretty fast to me. But as far as I know, all the equipment is pretty fast...unless trains have to slow down for construction. -Nick
Of course everythng is slow to me up in NYC, because I compare it with my city, Philly. All the RT lines move fast especially te M4 cars. They have been moving pretty good lately. Surprising considering ADTranz.
LOL! Sometimes the NYC subways seem fast to me, since during the school year I ride Boston's Green Line all the time, which is the Great, Great, Grandfather of all subway systems, and its speed shows it. However, the NYC subways still all seemed fast even before I became familiar with Boston's system, which has only occured in the last 10 months. -Nick
Trust me - if you're on a D train of R-68s, you're lucky if it reaches 30 mph on the CPW express run. Boooooorrriiiinnnngggg!!
The slant R-40s rank up there in terms of speed. They can really move. The R-32s and R-38s aren't all that shabby, either. IMHO, any of these cars could outrun the R-46s, not that the R-46s are bad.
Of course, the R-10s in their heyday topped them all. Nothing could beat an express dash up CPW on an A train of R-10s. Now, THAT was exciting!
[Of course, the R-10s in their heyday topped them all. Nothing could beat an express dash up CPW on an A train of R-10s. Now, THAT was exciting!]
And loud. As a commuter who uses a walkman, I was thrilled to see the R10's disappear.
The R10 was certainly one of the loudest trains ever to run. Especially if their windows and storm doors were open in the summertime. The R16s and R17s were also rather loud, R17s a bit more so than R16s. R16s rarely got up to speed, they were slow and seem to have passed some of their slow genes on to the R68s.
Wayne
I agree the R-10s weren't exactly quiet; however, they weren't that bad in their heyday, which to me translates into the late 60s. I rode on many, many A trains of those cars and never had to hold my ears on that express dash up CPW. Now, if you were standing on the uptown platform at 81st St. when an A train went by, you were treated to a thundering roar, to be sure. The R-10s would bear down on 81st St. at top speed, gathering steam from 59th St. until you were about halfway between 72nd and 81st Sts.
Of course, by the time they finished their careers on the C, some of them were painfully loud. Out-of-round wheels may have had something to do with it.
I think someome overlooked soundproofing insulation when the R-10s were designed. Even so, I loved those cars. I'm proud to say that, next to William Padron (Mr. R-10), I'm probably the biggest R-10 fan around. Everything about them was fast: fast doors, fast compressors, fast, period.
Many NYC cars accelerate rather slowly. Don't forget, all cars put out the same horsepower. So a 75'er will accelerate slower than a 60'er. An R44/46 may accelerate faster than an R68 because the former has B cars with less hardware than the A cars. R68 type cars, even linked ones, are virtually the same weight.
Actually, there are 2 seperate issues. Supposedly, trains today do accelerate faster than yesteryear. The problem is top speed is lower due to the elimination of field shunting, a TA reaction to the Willy B crash just over 4 years ago. This is why the trains are crawling at the top of steep grades.
all subway cars are slowest at full/multiple position when operating on a grade. i've gotten an r 62 and some redbirds down the Joralemon st tube s/b thru the timers at top out at 49-50mph however climbing the grade into Boro Hall both classes drop down to 22-23 mph.
If the timers on the Manhattan br didn't exist climbing the grade a R68 probably too would top out at 30 mph and fly down into Dekalb av.
I don't care what you guys say about ANY of the equipment NYCTA runs, even R-40s in the BMT tubes leaving Queensboro Plaza. If the diesel engine on an RTS bus is governed at 50 MPH and the trains can't obtain 40 without the help of a steep grade, there is no "rapid" in Rapid Transit! Id personally like to see the NYCTA win a Harriman award due to the fact their trains aren't fast enough to injure anyone anymore. I hit 40 with a train confirmed with all motors live. From here on I propose whoever talks about speed to please include a plug for OT because the TA Triple Exacta has two broken legs and should be put to sleep.
When the R-62s built by Kawasaki in 1982 arrived, they operated
on the IRT #4 line. But in 1993? Why were all these cars coupled into
5-car linked sets with cab controllers removed on non-operating cabs?
Suppose that they have to cut down the number of cars on the IRT #4
line. Then the only option is a 5-car train.
When the R-62As built by Bombardier arrived in 1986-1987, they
operated on the other subway line. Why were some R-62As tested on the
IRT Flushing Line? But why were they sent back to the mainline IRT
Lines after a while. Recently I saw some of the R-62As on the IRT #1
and #9 lines were coupled into 5-car linked units with full-width
operating cabs. Why did they do this? Suppose they have to cut the
number of cars on the trains during off hours.
I took the IRT #3 train several times, and I would like to
know why did they reduce the IRT #3 trains of R-62As to only 9 cars
instead of 10 cars? Before the Lenox Avenue reconstruction project,
the IRT #3 trains had 10 cars. During late nights, how many cars
does the IRT #3 train have?
Recently I saw a purple #11 sign on an R-62A car on the IRT
42nd Street Shuttle. What color are the numbers 8, 10 and above?
When will these larger number go into effect? Will they ever use
these higher numbers?
James S. Li
James S. Li wrote in message:
"When the R-62s built by Kawasaki in 1982 arrived..."
The 5 car sets are supposed to cut on electrical usage that involves the running of extra motors that are unneccesary. The IRT, as I see never runs anything other than 5 or 10 cars, except on the 3, 7 or Shuttle.
"When the R-62As built by Bombardier arrived in 1986-1987..."
Same reason as above, to cut on power consumption. As for running on the 7, I don't know, they should have transferred the R-36 to the mainline and scrapped the R-33S when they did the GOH. Perhaps the R-62 was there during the GOH of the R-36 and the R-33 uncomfortables.
"I took the IRT #3 train several times..."
Some tracks in the Lenox Yard cannot take 10 car trains. During Lenox reconstruction, trains ran to 137, and didn't need the Lenox Yard.
"Recently I saw a purple #11 sign on an R-62A..."
I assume that because it's purple, it probably is an idea to make the 7 express into a different number. I heard that there was a green 8, which would be for 6 express (or skip-stop on East Side?).
Not so. Each car of the 5-car set retains its original motor configuration: 4 115-horsepower motors. The big savings is in maintenance: drawbars are much more reliable than couplers. Additionally, the cars were built with a master controller at each end; now, 8 of the 10 master controllers in a 5-car set are unneeded and can be used for spare parts.
David
[The 5 car sets are supposed to cut on electrical usage that involves the running of extra motors that are unneccesary. The IRT, as I see never runs anything other than 5 or 10 cars, except on the 3, 7 or Shuttle]
The 3 was always a 9 car train. There is a purple 11 sign. There is also a green 8 and 10. I believe there is also a red 12 sign. I believe the 12 is for a skip stop service with the 2. (I wish I could use the bullets to show but I do not want hear anything.)
Hey, an OCCASIONAL use for proper illustrative purposes won't get anybody mad - but if they're readily available on the web, adding a hyperlink instead would keep everyone happy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
3Train#2119Mike:
I heard there was also a #13, #14 and possible #15 on the roll
signs. What color are the #13, #14 and possible #15? How high will the
numbers in the IRT R-62s and R-62As roll signs go? If #13, #14 and
possible #15 exists, which lines will these numbers be representing?
James S. Li
The highest number on the roll signs is a green 13, followed by SPECIAL and NOT IN SERVICE ( or vice versa)
When the R-68s built by Westinghouse-Amrail arrived in 1986,
they operated on the IND-BMT D and Q lines. But why did some operate
on the B and F lines from time to time, and were sent back to the D
and Q lines? When did these cars start operating on the BMT N line?
When the R-68As built by Kawasaki arrived in 1989, they were
running on the IND-BMT D line. But between 1994 and 1996, why did the
IND-BMT D line swapped R-68/ R-68A cars with the BMT N and Q lines?
I am NOT talking about the B and Q switching cars in November 1997.
Currently the R-68s run on the B, D and N lines. I STILL would
like to know why there is an occassional R-68A train on the BMT N
line? I have spotted this occassional R-68A train on the BMT N line
many times, when I ride the BMT N and R, and caught it several times.
I am NOT talking about the R-68s built by Westinghouse-Amrail which
are on the BMT N line, but the Kawasaki-built R-68A you OCCASSIONALLY
see on the BMT N line.
I wonder what color are the other letters on the roll signs of
the R-68s and R-68As. Which other letters exist besides V and W? When
will these letters go into effect?
James S. Li
First question: perhaps they were testing them on the other lines, or perhaps they were loaned because of a car shortage, as cars began to be rebuilt around this time. Quite often cars will appear on a line they are not assigned to.
They started operating on the N when the second order (2700's-2900') began coming in, in 1987 and the D & Q were about filled up.
The 68A's were taken off the D when they began to be linked into 4 car sets, which the Concourse yard couldn't accommodate. Then they went back and forth between the N and Q (both are from same yard), and then to the B when it needed full width cabs for OPTO service.
The blue H and K is still on those signs, as well as the V. (W is not on original R68 signs; only replacements).
Dear Eric:
Are they ever going to link the R-68s into "married pairs"?
How long will the R-68s stay on the tracks for? Someone told me
about scrapping the 75 foot cars! They are still in good condition
and can run to the years 2020-2030, before they retire from passenger
service. Are we ever going to get NEW cars on the IND and BMT
Southern division in the 21st Century, which are similar to the
R-44s, R-46s, R-68s and R-68As?
James S. Li
The R-68s are being linked into 4-car sets.
I personally wouldn't mind seeing the R-44s put out to pasture. The R-46s are OK. If the R-68s could be souped up, I might even enjoy them.
As for new cars on the Southern Division, that'a good question. I think a consensus answer would be: we don't know.
From a commuter's perspective I can't see any difference between the R-44 or the R-46, outside of a few almost invisible cosmetic differences and the rather offensive sounds the R-44's brakes make.
As I understand it, any subway cars funded in whole or in part by federal money must be kept for at least 35 years. (I guess the government amortizes the cost...)
-Hank
I can remember in late 1987 there were R68's on the F line and R46's on the N line going to Astoria.
From my memory they first appeared on the D (B'way-Brighton "half") in October 1986 and then the Q in early 1987. It was about this time the R-16's disappeared off the M. They then appeared on the N shortly after the terminal switch in May of '87. The R-68A's, I think first appeared on the (Bronx/6th Ave. "half") of the D line in early 1988, although I cannot confirm that since I never rode that line at that time.
I can confirm that I saw them on the Bronx portion. I remember seeing them and thinking they looked slightly different than the others. I also remember the 5000 series numbers. I couldn't tell you if they were there first or were someplace else first and then put there.
The R68A's went straight to the Concourse "D" line first.
They were tested on the Sea Beach exp tracks first though, but they did start in Concourse.
I think the only line the 68s HAVEN'T run on (that they could) would be the Fulton St line. As F trains, they ran on the Queens Blvd line, and as D or B they made it to the 8th Ave line, but unless they were A or C trains, they never got out to the Fulton Line.
-Hank
And let's hope they stay off the Fulton St. line. Or, if they do wind up there, put them on the C. The A line is already stuck with the R-44s.
If there's a blizzard that knocks out power, some will go to Pitkin and provide service pulled by a locomotive.
There was one time that a train of R68A's were used on the Lefferts Blvd "A" train. It was sometime during the summer of 1991. I just happen to ride it and no, it was not a re-routed "D" train. All cars, front, back, sides and in between were marked "A". Other than that one time, I have never seen them on the "A" again.
I remember seeing the R-46s on the N in 1978 and 1979.
I figured most of the R-16s had disappeared from the face of the earth by 1987.
R46's ran on the N throughout the 80s until the terminal switch in 1987. Those cars then were transferred to the new R route. But I did find it strange seeing R-46's on the Ditmars Blvd N route in Sept. and Oct. 1987. At that time (and I think still today) all R-46 cars are assigned to the Queens Blvd. lines exclusivly.
I think you're right about the R-46s today. They must all be operating out of Kew Gardens Yard (or is it Jamaica Yard?) because they only turn up on the E, F, G, and R lines.
I believe the E train is mainly served by R-32 cars and the occaisonal R-46. The R-46 also runs on the A train.
The A line is not served by any R-46's, but its evil twin brother (lol), the R44.
There are also a number of R32s on the A line as of late, along with R38s and R44s.
-Wayne
I assume those are the R32's that have been MIA from the N line since the WB closing ...
Actually, I think the swap went like this: CI R32s to Jamaica, and some Jamaica R32s to Pitkin. R40Ms and high-number NYCT-GOH R42 went from EastNY to CI to cover the N. A handful of 4300-series R40 went up to Lutheran (Myrtle) yard to work the M shuttle.
Keep an eye out for these R32 N: 3858-3859, 3846-3847, 3816-3817, 3648-3649, 3926-3927, AND 3680-3681, 3910-3911, 3902-3903, 3844-3845, 3948-3949. 3898-3899 and 3848-3849 are still plying the N as well.
Wayne
That's about the best R-44 analogy I've ever heard. Maybe troubled is a better word than evil.
Because of some unforseen events, this may be my last post indefinately.
I'd like to say that I've learned a lot from the time I've spent here. It's good to know that there are people who care enough about subways to want to put all the work into sites like this.
Thanks to Dave and everyone who worked in putting together this site and keeping it up and running. Thanks also to everyone here on SubTalk for answering my questions and entertaining my comments. I enjoyed it all.
As I said, it will be some time before I post again, so thanks everyone.
It was reported today in a national newspaper that the Goverment is going to be pressing for the introduction of Ladies only cars on off peak services in a bid to increase passenger numbers. Research has indicated that a large number of single women are put off using the undrground because of a lack of security particularly at nightime. The trains will be manned by Guards. LT estimate it will ad 7% to fares but the government estimate that the extra revenue will offset most of the cost. Is this the end of OPTO ?
Simon
Swindon UK
There was an outcry in New York about 1909 for the introduction of women-only cars because of the indignities visited upon women in crush loadings during rush hour.
The IRT resisted but the H&M tried it. It was well-patronized at first but came under attack by, among others, feminists of the era who felt that this kind of special treatment diminished their cause.
Bottom line was that usage dropped steadily until the cars were given up. They lasted a matter of months.
However, commentators have noted a "gender gap" on the trains, with women more likely to pay that extra fare to take express buses, or tolerate a slow trip and take local buses, to avoid the train.
Such a restriction may not be constitutional. You can certainly limit the rights of white males, but not other males.
The commuter trains in Bombay, I remember, have ladies-only cars in order to deter "eve-teasers."
Seems to me that this is a case of perceptions vs. reality. If London is like New York, and I don't see why it wouldn't be, at least in this context, the majority of crimes occur in the stations rather than on the trains themselves. Having "women-only" cars therefore wouldn't actually make their rides much safer. On the other hand, IF the idea is to get more women to use the Underground, and having these cars accomplishes that end, I suppose it would be worthwhile (strictly from a revenue standpoint) even though it would be unlikely to affect crime rates. But there still are discrimination and fairness issues. Don't expect to see anything like that in the United States.
Not unprecedented, and not entirely an urban-transit issue. Circa 1940, the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe advertised cars restricted to women and children on Midwest-California trains.
In principle, I suppose I should go into Rush Limbaugh, what'll-those-goddam-feminazis-think-of-next mode over this idea; but there are definitely women who would feel more comfortable with the idea of transit if rapists^W men could systematically be excluded from their sight. Now, what do we do about those who would be similarly attracted by the promise of -- well, most of 'em aren't quite sufficiently out of touch these days to think in terms of white-only cars, but at least bourgeois-only cars?
Does the Paris Metro, with its separate first-class cars physically almost indistingushable from second-class, have the right idea? I would feel distinctly guilty about thinking so!
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
[re Paris Metro]
I believe the Metro eliminated its first-class cars several years ago.
Hello folks, Please understand that the # 7 line WILL NOT be recieving the R62A or the R142 cars. the only cars the # 7 line WILL BE recieving is the R33 cars from the #2 or #4 lines Im sorry for the bad news. Regards
Why? how will the 7 run 11 car trains with married pairs? THE R-33 SINGLES MUST GO NOW!!! they should have scrapped them in the 80s when they had the chance, or at least made them useful as married pairs.
The R-33 Singles will probably be the LAST cars to be scrapped out of all. They have diversion valves with dual division trips so they would be great for rider cars or work motors. They have windshields at both ends so converting them to rider cars to replace the aging R-12-R-22s in poorer shape is not out of the question. Their lack of A/C might be their only cause for survival as train crew comfort is not a priority of the TA in the case of the work train fleet.
OK, I actually meant removal from passenger service.
I dont think the R-12 AND 22S are in poor shape
R-12s and R-22s? They're long gone from the revenue service scene, having been retired in the 80s.
I believe he's referring to those that survive as work motors and rider cars. I saw a few R15's out as rider cars, decked out in yellow paint.
Wayne
You're right. I stand corrected.
You can't build 11 car trains out of married pairs. That's why the R-33 Worlds Fair cars were built in the first place. A more interesting question is why those cars are R-33 and a similarly small number of main line cars are R-36?
Why would the TA transfer R-33 main line cars to the 7? (Especially since a few R-36 Worlds Fair cars are on loan the other way?) The World's Fair cars, though operated mostly outdoors in the weather, probably don't accumulate as much steel dust and other subway crud as the main line cars and therefore are probably in better shape.
The R-33 singles are very valuable as transfer motors since they are equipped with both IRT and BMT-IND trip cocks. Since the 7 uses BMT trips, the R-33 singles must accompany any R-36WF cars which venture onto other IRT rails.
The Flushing line is an IRT line. The trippers are all on the cab side of the track. The R-33 cars have four trip cocks because whenever the R-36 cars need to leave the Flushing line for heavy maintainence, they must use the BMT. As IRT cars, the trip cocks are on the wrong side for BMT travel.
The R-36's are going before the 33's because they were some of the first cars to be rebuilt in the 80's. They have racked up a lot of milage. The brake equipment is no longer standard, Ie; obsolete. Not to mention the rust problem many of them suffer. There's also a varietyofother reasons too.
So the question is: will the mainline R-33s being sent to the 7 be fitted with dual tripcocks like the R33-WFs? If not, then they will still need some R33-WFs for use as "transfer motors".
And for 11 car trains.
Mainline R33 are not single units. Face it, while there were not enough R142 ordered to completely replace the redbirds, but the worst of the fleet will be the first to go, and the worst includes the entire fleet of WF cars. If the condition of the exteriors is any indication of what the underframe looks like....
There will be a dramatic shift in what cars are used where, and most of the redbirds will be used to provide peak service only. They'll want to keep all the redbirds on a mainline that has easy access to a base maintainance shop, as they will need much more TLC as they age further. We'll see cannibalism, bad paint, and so on as they age, this in addition to the existing body rot and the holes in much of the WF fleet. When the metal is in bad enough shape that metal comes off in chunks in your hand, it's time to put the horse to sleep.
-Hank
We're already seeing this! Look at the R29s on the #5 and #6 lines. They're in the worst shape of any cars out there, even worse than the R26s. The red paint is faded. Great gobs of rust decorate their sides. Even the number plaques are rusting.
Examples of cars with major body rot: #8596-7, #8616-7, #8734-5, #8726-7, #8582-3.
They did a nice job of fixing up the mainline R33s. Very few of them have obvious rust, and many look like they have been recently repainted.
Wayne
Just curious, but how does one tell the difference between an R26 or 29 and the R33/36 without being a transit employee. They sure look alike to me.
Physically, there's very little, if any, difference, so the best way to distinguish would be by fleet number.
The Flushing R-33/36 cars have different style windows than mainline cars.
The r-26 have the builder as Amercan Car and foundry while the others built by St. Louis have differnet places where they were rebuilt
R 26 Nos. 7750-7859 On No.5 Line some on No.2 Line
R 28 Nos. 7860-7959 On the No.5 Line some on No.2 Line
R 29 8570-8805 No the No.5,6 Lines some on No.2 Line
R33 Main 8806-9305 No.2 Line some on No.5 and No.6 Lines
R33 W/F 9306-9345 No.7 Line
R36 9346-9769 On No.6 or No.7 Lines
The R 33's from the No.2 Line that are on the No.6 Line are the cars they get for sending there R 62A'S to the No.5 Line for OPTO
Aren't R33 #9220-9305 assigned to the #4 line? I've seen them up at Concourse/Jerome yard and out on the road, esp. during rush hours.
Also - #9524-9559 are the odd-ball R36 Main you see on the #6.
Wayne
Yes Wayne thanks for pointing that out. I don't know how I forgot the No.4 Line
Here's another little trick: look at the interior ceiling paint jobs:
R26, R28, R29: Solid Beige
R33: Solid white
R33WF, R36: White with beige accents.
Wayne
And another trick: the carbuilder's plate. Granted, new plates were installed after GOH, but the original builder is mentioned.
R-26, R-28: ACF
R-29, R-33, R-36: St. Louis Car Co.
The rebuilders are mentioned as well.
Just curious, but how does one tell the difference between an R26 or 29 and the R33 without being a transit employee. They sure look alike to me.
The car number.
See the Car Roster.
-Dave
Thanks.
Some of the #7 R33 cars occasionally show up on the #6 line. Whether they are in better shape than the cars than run mostly underground is a moot point, however, I have never had a problem with them.
OK- next question : When will the 7 line receive stainless steel cars: be they R156,R175 (made up numbers) or whatever?
Probably at the same time the 2nd Ave. line opens with brand-new R-1635342 mag-lev trains. I hear that a ceremony depicting this momentous occasion will be televised all over the solar system so our Martian brothers and sisters can watch.
(sarcasm mode: dis-engaged)
Hello folks, Please understand that the # 7 line WILL NOT be recieving the R62A or the R142 cars. the only cars the # 7 line WILL BE recieving is the R33 cars from the #2 or #4 lines. Im sorry for the bad news. Regards
It puzzles me as to why a subway line which is at least 75% above ground would recieve the only remaining non-stainless steel subway cars.
Just asking, but is it because the R62 cannot be configured into 11 car trains?
I was under the impression that some R-62s would be linked into 6-car sets, and others into 4-car sets to allow 9- and 11-car trains.
As for being above ground 75% of the time, that is true of the Flushing line, but the 2, 5, and 6 lines are above ground in the Bronx for virtually the same length as the 7 is in Queens. Put it this way: every IRT line spends some time above ground except the 42nd St. shuttle. If I wanted to see the Redbirds spend more time underground, I'd put them on the 1 or 9. Except then, you'd have to change the end sign at South Ferry.
I have two questions:
1. What purpose is served by having two brake lines in a train?
2. I looked at the animated motor diagram on Joe Korman's website, but I don't get how the resistor grid is activated or deactivated, or why it exists in the first place.
1) Got me - probably a redundancy thing
2) Oh, resistor grids exist for all sorts of reasons. You see, subways run on direct current. As such, you can not use a transformer to vary the voltage to the traction motors. Since just turning on and off the motors would be pretty hard on the track, passengers, and not surprisingly, the motors, there needs to be a way to "ease" into full power. Enter the resistance grid. By placeing a resistance in series with the traction motors (which themselfs may be in series or parallel), the current to the motors can be reduced. Also drops the voltage too. As the train increases with speed, the motors are running faster, can recieve more power. So the resistance is reduced, until you have none at all.
(To Steve and everyone else - Yes, I know this is grossly oversimplified!)
Another thing the resistances can do is make the motors act as brakes. If a motor is left to turn on its own accord, it becomes a generator. If we place a resistance accross the motor terminals, we can use this power and "load" the motor down. The lower the resistance, the more the load. Obviously, the slower the motor turns, the less power it puts out, and it puts out nothing if stopped. Thus, we still need air brakes. Since the motor is being loaded sdown, it presents a (mechanical) resistance to whatever is connected to it, namely the train wheels. Just like a brake.
The resistances are activated and controlled by the switch group under the car. Basicaly a bunch of real big switches that are controlled by either a camshaft and linkage system, or air (Westinghouse Unit Switch - no longer used). If you listen to an LIRR train pulling out of a station in a quiet area, you can hear the switches clicking as the car starts to move. I was on one LIRR train where the MA was dead, and you couyld hear the controller running the whole way (it was nice and quiet - I wish they always were like that!)
The next order of subway cars will do most of this via "solid state" electronics, thus reducing (but not elimanating) the need for resistances.
AC traction does not use resistors. If it has non regenerative dynamic it would though.
AC uses an inverter to vary the frequency and amplitude of the motor current to control power to the axles.
ArrowIII MU cars at NJT have an inverter for every pair of motors.
1. What purpose is served by having two brake lines in a train?
NYCT cars have several different air lines. Main Reservoir, Brake Pipe, Straight Air, and Brake Cylinder Air are the four main ones.
The main reservoir air is the source of all other (airs) on the train. The compressor puts out between 135 and 150 PSI. This is stored in a tank called the main reservoir.
When the Air is reduced by the Feed Valve, to 110 PSI, it is used to charge the Brake Pipe. Brake Pipe Air is analogous to a green light for the brake system. If the brake pipe is charged to 90-110 PSI, it tells the brake system that it is ready to go. This is one of the two train-line air lines. If BP goes below 90 PSI, you can't release the brakes.
The Straight Air is the air that controls the brake system. The air in the brake cylinder is Directly proportional to the Straight Air Pressure which ranges from 0 - 80 PSI. The train operator will control the train by varying the straight air pressure. This is the other train-line air.
Finally, Brake Cylinder Air is the air that does the work. Through a series of pneumatic relays, the brake cylinder air is varied according to the Straight Air pressure - adjusted for the weight of the load in the car and the amount of dynamic current being generated. Brake Cylinder Air comes from Main Reservoir air and is controled by the J (generic) relay valve.
I looked at the animated motor diagram on Joe Korman's website, but I don't get how the resistor grid is activated or deactivated, or why it exists in the first place.
Traction motors are series wound motors. One of the characteristics of a series wound motor is that if it is unloaded, with maximum rated voltage applied, it's speed, in theory, will be infinite. Of course, in practical terms, it would tear itself apart. If you attempted to apply 300 volts to a traction motor that was coupled to a gear case, it would draw excessive current and result in enormous torque, tripping the overloads. The grids are resistors that in power mode, control the speed of the traction motor. The motor is started with maximum resistance in the circuit and as it's speed increases, the resistors are sequentially removed from the circuit. This is done by a device known by various terms such as group switch box, cam controller or control package. In it's simplest form the control package is a network of electrical switched that are activated by a cam or air engine. Based on the current of the Traction motors, the cam controller advances, removing or adding resistance as needed to create a smooth accelleration. In dynamic braking, the resistance in the circuit is used to dissipate the current produced by the motors during braking. The amount of resistance is proportional to the brake demand and the speed of the train.
OK, I got that. But, what's a cam and how does it work?
A cam is a piece of fibre or plastic with an irregular shape. It is mounted on a rotating shaft. At any given point during the shaft's rotation the cam may be high, closing the switch, or low, opening it. Today's camshaft controllers take the place of early controllers where relay contacts, called interlocks, on one contactor set up the circuit for the next contactor, a very complex arrangement. The cams insure that the contactors always operate in the right sequence.
The cam acitvates ir deactivates a series of switches. The sequence that steve described begins with all of the switches on, putting all of the resisters in the circuit.
The switches are turned off one at a time allowing more current to flow to the motors.
It works like a light dimmer. If the dimmer is not used the light is bright. as you turn it you add more windings of resistance to the circuit and the light gets dimmer. When the car starts its like pushing the dimmer on with it set to the lowest brightness then backing off to full brightness of full power.
How big is the cam and how does it look like?
The cam controller is a shaft approximately 4' - 5' long with multiple cams mounted on it. At one end is a drive mechanism consisting of the 'pilot motor' (either air or electric) and a gear box. There is also a device for controlling the precise positioning of cams. The entire assembly is fit into the group switch box which also houses the logic controls and high voltage contactors. The entire group switch box hangs under the car roughly in the middle and is about 7' long by 2 1/2' high by 2' wide. (cost 50-60 thousand dollars)
Steve,
How does the cam control compare with chopper controled equipment?
I know the cam is mechanical and reliable. How much electronics are
there in regulating the cam position and acceleration and deceleration rates on the new cars? What kind of controls will the r146's have?
The standard Westinghouse package has one large solid state logic card. There is also an optical sensor to control cam positioning. The logic is 70s or early 80s state of the art.
The GE SCM-1 controller is a bit more reliable and a lot more complex. The technology is about a half decade behind te Westinghouse equivalent. The cam is mechanically positioned.
The Westinghouse E-Cam is a bit more advanced. If the GE is the 386 of controllers and the standard Westinghouse is the 486 then the E-Cam is a pentium. E-proms and advanced logic that make it quite reliable although I find the brake blending a bit harsh.
The R-142 and R-143 will be AC propulsion however the R-143 will likely be a little more advanced since it will be designed to interface witht he CBTC and the R-142s will bot be designed to be convertable.
Will the R-142/143 be able to regenerate, and how will this work with the current third rail - I'd assume there needs to be a train onm the same DC circuit for it to work?
Chopper Control mixes conventional contactors and electronics. The Chopper itself replaces the camshaft and its contactors and grids. Unlike the camshaft which monitors motor current and master controller position, the chopper's control circuits can also monitor car speed straight air pressure, temperature, humidity and other factors. The conventional contactors set up the motor or dynamic braking circuit and provide field shunting. The control system looks at all the factors and produces a pulse train which turns on and off the chopper (a large SCR or Thyristor) which switches the motor current on and off. Short pulses are applied at first, with the pulse length increasing as the car accellerates.
The main advantages of the chopper are that there is no thermal loss in accelleration (no resistance steps), no wear or arcing on contactor tips, and an ability to operate at any desired speed. In dynamic braking a fixed resistance is used to get the minimum rate and the chopper shorts that resistance to increase the rate and as the car slows down. There is no 'coasting circuit' since the speed sensor immediately sets up the correct amount of dymanic braking.
If regenerative braking is used, another sensor monitors the line voltage and a separate control determines how much of the braking current can be dissapated through the line, and how much on board. This switching is done by thyristor also.
Since all of this high speed switching generates harmonics, a standard feature of chopper systems is a huge inductor which keeps the DC line clean. Choppers also generate a characteristic buzz as the car accellerates and brakes, since the inductor acts as a giant voice coil!
AC systems also use thyristors to switch the inputs to a transformer which because of its inductance produces the smooth waveform for the AC motors.
Chopper control was fitted to the SOAC cars, the LRVs in Boston and San Francisco and many modern electric cars of all types, though it has never found favor with NYCT or the MBTA (with the exception of the LRVs and Type 7s.)
Gerry
Wow- most of this is way over my head.
I need to educate myself on electical engineering- library here I come!
So my question is- Do SF & Boston LRVs use regenerative braking?
And while I'm on the subject, I've heard several explanations for the preponderance of trolleybuses in SF that relate to the hills (I'm sure there are other historical reasons too). My second question is about #3:
1. Clutches & transmissions on diesel buses burn out & have problems quickly.
2. Less energy expenditure not having to haul a heavy diesel engine up & down hills.
3. Big energy savings from regenerative braking.
So is #3 true? Can/do trolleybuses use regenerative breaking?
Thanks,
-Damian
Does the technology exist for trolley buses to use regenerative braking? Yes. Has the technology been tried on a commercial basis? Yes, but not in the US, as far as I know. Was the testing successful? I don't think so.
Anyone else have any more information?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The hybrid buses use regenerative braking to charge the batteries.
I will have to do some home work to see if some of the US electric buses used regererative braking. I think they may have.
OK, that's a good point - I wasn't thinking about the hybrids, only the straight electrics.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
ArrowIII cars use the same type of system for dynamic brake. The AC Synchro motors use inverters to alter the DC from the Chopper (the line AC must first be converted to DC) to AC in varying frequencies and amplitudes. The motor voltage remains constant-as much as can be expected- throughout acceleration. 950 volts.
The Bombaradier R-110 cars use a very similar arrangement. I don't know about the A's though.
The cam acitvates ir deactivates a series of switches. The sequence that steve described begins
with all of the switches on, putting all of the resisters in the circuit. The switches are turned off one at a time allowing more current to flow to the motors
Actually, it's the other way around. The switches close
to short-circuit sections of the grid resistance.
It works like a light dimmer. If the dimmer is not used the light is bright. as you turn it you add more
windings of resistance to the circuit and the light gets dimmer.
That's a good analgoy, but that's not how a household dimmer works, If a simple
variable resistor were used, it would get so hot that you wouldn't
be able to touch the knob. The dimmer works by virtue of the fact
that household current is alternating (A.C.) A solid-state device called
a thyristor acts as a switch which is turned on and off 60 times
a second, in sync with the alternating current. The amount of time
the switch stays on determines the percentage of full line voltage
which appears, averaged out, across the load (the lightbulb)
But the light dimmer analogy shouldn't be thrown out entirely - it's how at least some of the older PRR MU cars (MP-85, maybe the Arrows and Septic stuff still, the M-2 might do this in AC mode too) worked - only they used a pair of forced air cool ignitrons to do it. I believe it's called "Phase angle control", or something to that effect. It only works with AC, and I think the AEM-7s use it too, but with solid state components. It's tricky because it requires a interesting control circuits, ignitrons are touchy things, and solid state stuff hates abuse. The beauty is that it's totally smooth control.
An ignitron is a gaseous-state predecessor of the SCR/Triac.
They are also called Thyrotrons. Alternating current rises
from zero, peaks, declines, crosses zero, peaks negative and
rises back to zero again. A resistor-capacitor network can
introduce some phase shift giving you a signal that rises from
zero a variable amount of time from the main power waveform.
This signal is used as a trigger to start the flow of current
across the ignitron. Once triggered, the arc maintains itself
and current continues to flow until the AC crosses zero, at which
point the arc is extinguished by itself. Then the cycle repeats
on the negative side. By varying the resistance in the R-C network,
you vary the time delay and thus how far into the cycle the thing
fires. The more delay, the later it fires and the less average
current is conducted.
OK I have not taken my household dimmers appart. I did used to do some theater work and the old resistance dimmers had windings and when you wound the contacts up and down they would change the level of resistance and they did get warm.
Some times the windings and contact points would get bad and the dimmer would not work beyond a certain point. The solution was to solder a link connecting to the next spot. It was ok but not real smooth dimming after that.
I've seen rheostatic (resistor) theatrical dimmers and also
autotransformers for heavier loads. The latter are heavier
because of the need to have an iron core, but are much more
efficient since they don't dissipate energy to achieve dimming.
Thanks for the explanation Steve. One thing still confuses me. It seems like the motors would need to produce the most amount of power (torque?) to get the train rolling and could reduce power as the train gathers speed and momentum. It seems counter-intuitive that adding resistance at the start would not lower the current/power/something that is necessary.
Is there a simple explanation to this, or do I need a course in DC motor theory?
Bill
A DC motor has its maximum torque at 0 rpm. However, if this torque is high enough, it will exceed the force of friction holding the wheel to the rail and the wheel will spin. The resistance prevents spinning (and if the wheels held at full torque, whiplash lawsuits).
Yeah, you need a course in DC motors, but they are simple.
Let's see what happens if we try to start a subway car with
0 grid resistance. Each subway car motor has a winding resistance
of 0.06 (that's 6 hundredths) ohm. When the car starts the motors
are in series. So, that's 0.24 total motor resistance. Put
600 volts across that, and, by Ohm's Law, you have about 2500
amps!
By way of comparison, these motors are rated for a nominal current
of 300-400 amps. At 2500 amps, the motors will blow up.
If they did manage to hold it together, they'd generate a
large amount of torque that would spin the wheels.
That's why all subway cars have a fast-acting line breaker
set at, I think, 1000 amps. In case there is a short-circuit
in the motor controls, it interrupts power before damage gets done.
As a series motor accelerates, it acts as a generator and produces
an internal armature voltage which acts to counter the pressure of
the applied line voltage. At the rated running speed of the motor,
all of the external resistance is cut out. However, the 600 volts
coming from the line is diminished by the (picking a number out
of the air) 550 volts of counter-EMF, leaving 50 volts available
to work through the 0.12 ohms of winding resistance, for about
400 amps.
Subway cars are designed to notch out resistance so as to maintain
an approximately constant rate of acceleration of 2.5 MPH/sec.
The starter motor on an automobile is also a DC series motor. And, yes, you always want to test it with a load of some sort. Otherwise it would self-destruct.
simply put backup if service brake line should rupture the change in air pressure would cause the brake pipe to cause an emergency application of the brakes. If the brake pipe should fail of course the brakes will also apply in emergency.
Not necessarily with a straight air rupture. I had one a few years ago at the second car of the train. My contol of the train was seriously impaired as I couldn't obtain more than 35 pounds of straight air but I could move the train to the nearest siding and subsequently, the yard. The train did not dump and thank the lord I had an operable compressor at the head end or otherwise I'd have no main reservior, although I did secure the train and hold the brakes in release to rebuild my supply air.
Thanks for the info!
Anthony
One is to control the brakes. The other is to fill the reservoirs.
I pass through this station every day and the renovation work has resumed! there are workers doing jack hammering on the platform not used for the N/R/6/J transfer and the temporary yellow and green tile is gone as is the refrigerator tile on the other side. Work lights hang over the other platform- the regular lights are gone and the workers are renovating the stairway from the other platform to the downtown 6 so I think they plan on reopening the line when (translate: if)the bridge reopens.
I think they are closing the 6th Ave. tracks again in a couple of years and going back to service similiar to 1986-88. Not sure for how long. I hope its not over a decade, the length of time the B'way tracks have been closed since they were last sed for revenue service. Wouldn't it have been faster to just build four new subway tubes instead of wasting years and millions of $$$$$ fixing the bridge anyway?
It took 20 years to get the 63rd St tunnel built. And it still goes to 'nowhere'.
Yes, but that will change in a few years.
You're right about a replacement tunnel - it should have been built a long time ago - but the real trick is getting the powers-that-be to listen.
Maybe, maybe not. The problems with the Manny B extend to much more than just the subway tracks. The work that got done, and is getting done, would have been needed anyway.
-Hank
I meant to add, I was in this station Yesterday (I needed to kill a ton of time, so I took a long excursion...details later)
There were tracks laid into the station, and the rails looked like they had actually seen a train or two. Since the track is not connected at the B'way end, I'd assume there is either a crossover at the Bridge end, or a work train or two had traveled over the bridge into the station. There were small blocks placed on the end of the track, too.
-Hank
I think they are closing the 6th Ave. tracks again in a couple of years and going back to service similiar to 1986-88. Not sure for how long. I hope its not over a decade, the length of time the B'way tracks have been closed since they were last used for revenue service. Wouldn't it have been faster to just build four new subway tubes instead of wasting years and millions of $$$$$ fixing the bridge anyway?
Today was another railfan trip. I took the 6 express in the Bx. I think I will have to do this one again. First of all there was a delay on Lex. Then we finally got a train. From 3Av to HP is not too bad. There was some slow downs and there was some spots where the train sped by the station. The best part was when we caught up to the R36 at E.149th. We were on a R62a. The R36 won the race to Longwood. The R36 also won the race from HP to Whitlock. The run from HP to Parkchester is very good. It was a good mixture of Redbirds and "SilverFoxes". There were Redbirds and one set of Silverfoxes in the Westchester Yard. I think that Weschester Sq should be built into an express station. It is very unsual in that it have glass windows and open screens on the platforms. Lot of buses converge there. Also @ St.Lawrence Av, the sign just says St.Lawrence. No Avenue at the end. BTW, there are a couple of cute female conductors on this line........
I was on an E train of R-46's this evening and between 50th street and 7th avenue there was a sudden sound of air discharging and we came screeching to a halt. The conductor came on the PA and apologized for the delay, saying the emergency brakes had been activated. Less than 30 seconds later we were moving again.
I remember reading after the union square wreck in one of the papers where someone pointed out that if someone on the train had pulled the emergency cord the procedure needed to get the train moving again was so involved that someone was sure to have noticed that the TO wasn't quite awake. Yet if it's possible to start moving again that easily, I don't see how this statement makes sense. What is the advantage of stopping a train that goes through a red signal if it can just be started right up again?
Emergency brakes can be activated by several things, including:
1. A pulled emergency cord
2. Debris on the roadbed
3. Attempting to pass a red signal at more than approximately 2 mph
4. The Train Operator releasing the controller handle while the train is moving ("deadman feature"
5. A brake pipe rupture
In case #1, it can take some time for the train crew to identify the cord that was pulled and reset it. In cases #2 through #4, the Train Operator merely has to recharge the train. In case #5, the crew must wait for help.
David
Wait - doesn't he have to go onto the roadbed to reset the trip thing if he tripped on a signal? Also, isn't it bad form for him to be letting go of the controller handle?
If a train passes a red signal, the motorman has to wait a few seconds before he can reset the brakes and go. If debris on the roadbed trips the emergency brake, the motorman must secure the train, then go down to track level and inspect the roadbed for any sign of debris before he can start his train. It is okay for the motorman to let go of the controller; as long as the train is stopped. NYCT subway trains have what's known as a "dead man's feature". The controller must have a hand pressing down on it AT ALL TIMES WHEN THE TRAIN IS MOVING. If the motorman should collapse, the controller springs up and the train stops dead. Even with the brakes charged and the reverse lever set in the forward position, power will not be admitted to the traction motors unless a man's hand is pressing down on the controller.
>If the motorman should
collapse, the controller springs up and the train stops dead.<
What would happen if the motorman collapsed onto the handle and his collapsing casued it to be held down?
Mikw
I was thinking about the two R-46s in Jamaica Yard years back when they collided into the wall east of the 179 Street terminal after the motorman had his heart attack on the relay position. Murphy's law in effect.
The rule is very specific: you MUST collapse away from the handle.
Seriously, unless the collapse was very unusual, the force of the spring would overcome the limp arms before the body fell forward.
Thanks Alex. I haven't laughed that hard in a while!
I don't know if anyone knows what the controller feels like but I have tried one before and it takes a concious effort to hold it down. If you relax, even for a little bit, you can feel the handle trying to push its way up. I have never heard of a motorman collapsing on the handle, but I don't think it's impossible. I just hope that it never happens.
On the R-46, the M/C handle requires 9-11 Lbs to push it down and 2 Lbs. to maintain it down. Other contracts have similar charicteristics.
lets see motorman passes out slumps across controller train continues til either the train passes a station without stopping isn't the conductor supposed to pull the cord for not making a scheduled stop? or passes a red signal and the emergency brake hopefully stops the train before slamming into a bumping block or rear of a train...
If anyone has operated an R44 they know how sensitive some controllers are and as we call they POP UP controllers the slightest release of pressure in a released position the train BIE's..
Sorry...should have been clearer.
Absent what the rules require (going down to the roadbed to investigate if a train is put into "emergency" by debris), the train can just be recharged. I was going for what's physically possible, not what's required by the rules.
David
I hate to burst your bubble:
KIDS, DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!
Because of the sorry state of current brake specifications, it is possible to move the train without a motorman's hand on the controller.
By applying the train's brake in full service and placing the cotroller handle in series, then depressing the side door bypass button.
I call it automatic train operation. Really a sight to see a train begin to move and then ACCELERATE by itself.
Needless to say, before GOH, NONE of the systems cars could do this. But I don't want to get into another argument on that.
Huh? You're saying the train will take power like this with
the m/c handle UP? Did they re-wire something? There's a drum
contact in the m/c which is supposed to interrupt CB+ to all
the other fingers with the handle up. The side door bypass is
just supposed to bypass the side door relay.
With composition shoes you don't get that heavy stiction at low
speeds like iron shoes. BUT, if the train accelerates with the
friction brakes applied at full service, it would seem to prove
that the low-speed full service brake rate is less than 2.5 MPHPS!
That drum contact is bypassed by the side door bypass as well. A train operator showed me years ago that if you drop the B2, apply full service with controller in parallel and side door bypass depressed, you can easily clear the timers on the downgrade of the Manhattan Bridge. For INFO ONLY.
Yeah, you're right. I just looked at a wiring diagram.
I keep getting confused with R9s!
UMMM V-E-R-Y INTERESTING...
so isn't the train now operating while dragging the brakes?
Yes - until a motor fails or a resistance burns up!
What ussually happens, is the brakes get hot and after a while they will begin to smoke. The only time the motors cause problems is if the field shunt coils are in the circuit and the train has reached its final stage of acceleration. Then if you get to a hill, motor current can climb high enough to open an overload relay. What a bang!
HAVEN'T I BEEN SCREAMING ABOUT THIS FOR AGES!?
The decel rate for service braking hasn't been 2.5 MPHPS since the J relays were changed out.
The contact for the handle up does not interrupt the feed to the trainlines whenever the bypass is depressed. I have never bothered to look atthe drawings to see exactly how this is wired. I just know from experience.
Apparently CB+ voltage doesn't run through the master controller. It's fed from CC1, or control cutout, depending on the car class. Same thing. Just different nomenclature.
Do you have to keep the side door bypass switch depress? If so it still not fully auto. What happens if you let go of the switch?
first, apply full service
second, apply throttle (to any postion or does it just work on series?)
third, release air brake while holding bypass button or not?
fourth, release deadman right?
Once depressed, the bypass stays in on most models. On those that don't it's still energized any way. On older(no longer here) car classes, the bypass can be depressed and the car have power applied in emergency too. Dumped cars can be moved with the brakes cut out. Just have someone standing at the BCO handle to shove it down when it's time to stop. In that case it will not retain and will have to be held. Once the master controller goes back to coast, the bypass will have to be pressed again.
The only way to get the car(train) to continue travelling on it's own is to leave the full service applied on the brake valve. That way the dead man can be released. The side door bypass is pressed so power can be applied. Otherwise when the handle is up there is a contact that opens the motor control circuit.
If the brakes in emergency was due to operator error, the train operator has only to wait the 'penalty time (about 17 seconds) and then charge the brake pipe and go. If the cause of the BIE is unknown, the operator must not only walk around his train but also 200 feet behind his train (not often done). In the case of a rupture, it doesn't matter because the train won't re-charge.
Of course, upon activation of the emergency brake for whatever reason, the Conductor is SUPPOSED to alert the Control Center.
I don't know whether this happens in NYC, but in Boston, trains that won't recharge or do so very slowly are common causes of delays. Passenger Emergency Valves here are behind 'glastic' windows which 'break' when you pull the lever making the violated valve easy to find.
One of the major causes of protracted delays on R-46 type equipment is due to improper operation by poorly trained operators. On all NYCT equipment, after an emergency brake application, regardless of cause, there is a penalty time or a period where the train can't be recharged until some valves re-seat. Typically, this averages 17 seconds. Some operators will panic and forget this. They will immediately try to recharge the brake pipe. In doing so, they will exhaust the main reservoir air. On R-44 and R-46 equipment, main reservoir air pressure is used to close the trainline valves at the open end of the train. When the Main Reservoir air drops below 60 PSI, those trainline valves pop open. Not the brakepipe and straight air lines exhaust to atmosphere. Once this happens, the main reservoir can never be replenished and the train can no longer be recharged. This can virtually always be avoided if the operator waits the penalty time before recharging.
On R-44 and R-46 equipment, main reservoir air pressure is used to close the trainline valves at the
open end of the train. When the Main Reservoir air drops below 60 PSI, those trainline valves pop
open. Not the brakepipe and straight air lines exhaust to atmosphere. Once this happens, the main
reservoir can never be replenished and the train can no longer be recharged. This can virtually
always be avoided if the operator waits the penalty time before recharging.
Hey, wait a second, that doesn't make sense. How does initial
charging of a dry train work if the tappets are open?
Also, what about the practice of leaving the valve in charging
to locate an open conductor's valve or trip cock? Does this
also cause these problems on R46?
Whether or not it makes sense, that's the way the NYAB coupling system operates. However, since the air compressors are left on, the main reservoir is maintained during lay-up. The trainline valves are maintained in the closed position. In a situation like a BP rupture or a pulled cord, MR Air may well be depleated during the troubleshooting of the condition & the trainline valves will open. Since the main reservoir will never recover, it becomes necessary for the operator (or RCI) to pull the angle-cocks on the open end of the train until MR Air is >60 PSI.
Wow, the more you describe those NYAB couplers, the more nauseous
I get. Makes one wish for Van Dorns again!
So, let me get this straight. If for some reason the main res
were depleted, say there was a weekend poweroff on the layup
track?, when one goes to put in the train, one has to close
the angles to get going?
Oh, here's a thought. What about going to handle off and
removing the reverse key? Wouldn't that break the 3 wire
back charging circuit and stop the flow of MR air to the SAP?
Yes. If the train is in emergency, and the SAP is at 0, there will be no blow of air from the coupler.
On a put in train, the car at the bumping block was off the third rail. Overnight it's compressor wasn't running, and it's MR fell.
When we arrived the next morning to make the train ready for service, my T/O went to charge from that car first. She called me on the IC to say it would'nt charge. All I had to do is pull the SAP angle, and tell her throw the reverser and wait a minute before trying to charge again.
Steve's right. Twice I have had to do this for rookie Train Operators who didn't know better.
let me see something weren't you a rookie train operator when you started? or were you just there when you earned your handles?
experience comes from operation and learning is a life long process so lets not knock a newbie for some mistakes especially since some trainers weren't exactly the best on the block. training someone to get the two hours OT shouldn't be taken just for the BUCK. Don't get me wrong i've recieved some excellent advice from some senior train operators but there are some guys who are so preoccupied with out side bullshit that they shouldn't be in the title no less training another individual...
Anthony;
You should know me better than that! I'm not knocking the rookie! I don't expect most motormen to know that one either. It was an odd situation and it's also something not taught to the crews. It should be. But my views on the inadequecies of TA training are already well known.
Most people wouldn't get that particular event, but a sharp cat, maybe possesing some mechanical know-how. They would have been able to figure it out on their own.
Blow of air from coupler? Let me close the valve.
your point is well taken, however it seems that most yards and crew rooms rookie=untrained. I too feel that training at NYCTA is totally inadequate no matter what the title. I've been on the road as a train operator for 30 days and feel comfortable in my operation. It seems if you're not doing cut and run in the yard or braking most rules to get the job done quickly enough you are not good enough. Lots of train operators doing favors for the dispatcher is great till the sh*t hits the fan. I'm "A" division and 70 working days from start to finish - 13 yard break in and 10 days road break in for school car is UNSAFE.
IF a train dumps and cannot charge of course closing angles Should be done to start the trouble shooting to try and narrow the trouble. juts letting air bleed doesn't seem correct. Plenty of people never wait the penalty time why I don't know? maybe they like the sound of air?
Never? Are the cars then sold for scrap?
Well.. no. The problem is, the brakes are on, right? And the train is stuck in the Tunnel. So what they have to do is abandon that tunnel with the train in it. There used to be a lot more tunnels around the city, but so many of them were abandoned due to stuck trains that we're left with what you see today. Things like the 23rd and 86th street crosstowns, the 2nd, 5th, and 9th avenue subways are all examples :---)
Minneapolis/St. Paul airport is building two automated people mover systems, including one that runs on air! (Sort of hovercraft meets mag lev! LOL.)
From a copyrighted article in Monday's Minneapolis StarTribune:
"Construction underway on airport people mover system
"Dan Wascoe Jr. / Star Tribune
"They will float on slices of air no thicker than a business card.
Cables will pull them to and fro automatically, like horizontal elevators.
And in September 2000, if all goes well, they will begin carrying people at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.
"The automated shuttle vehicles, a people mover unique in Minnesota, will be the first of two planned systems that will move airport users increasingly longer distances between the main terminal and adjoining structures..."
continues at:
http://www.startribune.com/stOnLine/cgi-bin/article?thisSlug=MOVE21&date=21-Jun-99&word=mover&word=movers&word=people
>Cables will pull them to and fro automatically, like horizontal elevators. <
That's the same type of system that's in place at the Cincinnati/N. KY. airport. It's really pretty boring although it is fully automated (no operator).
Mike
Correct. Otis has built a simular peoplemover at the Delta terminal at Cincinnati-Northern Kentucky Airport, at the Getty Center Art Museum in LA, and at Tokyo Narita International Airport.
You know what-
This is not "like a horizontal elevator"-
It's a revival of the cable car!! (ok, ok, no grip, but still...)
now who would have ever said that would happen!
[like a cable car] In some ways yes, but if it's the same as the one in Cincinnati's airport, it's made by Otis elevator... so it is also a horizontal eleator.
Mike
What if the cable should break? Everybody out and push!
I hope they're putting in emergency walkways. Goodness knows we could use one of those in Denver.
Is it true that the 3rd rail gets replaced between train runs during non rush hours with the 600 volts d.c. power on ? could someone explain how this is done....as some co-workers here in Ore don't beleive me that this is done......thanks
The third rail can not be REPLACED with the power on. Simply hooking the work car's crane to the rail would ground out the sector and turn any good trackman into a "conductor". However maintainance such as welding, insulation replacement and protection boards can be done with proper safety equipment.
They can weld 3rd rail with the power on? I assume not arc welding, or could you use the charge of the rail to create an arc suitable for welding? I admit I know little-to-nothing about welding, so I'm rather curious about this.
Yes, it can be done. As to whether or not they actually do it that way, I don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was a famous "You Asked For It" piece from the 50's where they showed a live third rail being repaired in NYC. I believe it was on the IND 8th Ave line. There may be a video of that segment available.
Yes, you arc-weld. Clip the negative electrode to the third
rail and put everything on a big rubber mat so it is floating
from ground. Remember, if there's no return path to ground,
that 600 volts doesn't mean anything. I don't think this practice
is common in NYCT anymore, but you'd have to ask someone in PD
Wasn't there an accident north of Jay St. Boro hall not more than a year ago when a MOW crew was welding ("3rd Rail Alive") live 3rd rail?
I seem to remember somthing but my memory is failing in direct relationship to the number of 40 Slants NOT running on the Q.
How soon before your memory fails altogether ? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All this Slant 40 talk has made me like those cars more. The railfan window on those hould be gov mandated on all electric MU equipment :) Speaking of the Q, what is the average time between 34th and West 4th, as the last time I took it, it was damm fast...
Hmm. Trying to get this arc-welding live rail stuff straight...
Clearly if you are insulated from the ground, it does not matter if you are touching something that is at high voltage relative to ground. Birds on power lines illustrate this. It always seemed like a dangerous idea to me though. Was this done because the electrical blocks on the system are really big or somesuch? I can imagine that circuit breakers for the subway system would have been very expensive items in the 30's, so the electrical blocks on the system might be very large.
I assume you can arc weld on a live rail without changing the voltage on the rail because (I think) arc welders are AC and the third rail is of course DC. The big inductive loss keeps that AC from making it far enough to mess up the voltage away from the welding, and since the arc welder is attached to the rail in two places, it does not know that the DC is there. But how do they ground the arc welder power supply?? Or is it a free standing generator?
Seems like a strange practice, thats all. Someone needs to recruit someone from the power department to post here :)
Arc welders can be AC or DC, depending on the application.
That's not important in terms of isolation from the third
rail. The welding supply is kept floating. By way of analogy,
let's say my welding supply is a big 12V car battery. Since
the battery is made of plastic, it isn't making electrical
contact with ground. A battery sitting squarely on the running
rail isn't grounded.
Now, I attach an insulated wire from negative battery post to
the third rail. I attach another insulated wire to positive
battery post. Now, at this point, the negative of the battery
is at third rail potential, which we'll take as 600 volts to ground.
The positive side of the battery is at 612 volts to ground.
If I touch the positive wire to ground, then I create a dead
short of 612 volts to ground through my wires and the battery itself.
The current is limited by the ampacity of the substation circuit,
about 100,000 amperes.
The battery and everything around it explodes and I am unhappy.
However, I place a big rubber mat around the work area to
prevent this. To my positive wire I attach a welding rod,
which is simply a solid piece of metal of similar composition
to the work, plus some flux which vaporizes and protects
the work from oxidation. I touch the rod to the third rail.
I do not blow up. Rather, the path for current to flow is
from the rod, to the third rail, back through the negative,
through the battery and back to the rod. The circuit has 12 volts
of potential and fairly low resistance. A large current flows, say
300 amps.
I move the tip of the rod away from the third rail. Because an
arc, once started, likes to continue to flow, the current is able
to jump the inch or so distance I maintain from the end of the rod
to the work and an arc is sustained. That arc creates localized
heating of the work and sucks vaporized metal particles from the
welding rod into the work
This entire operation electrically floats on top of the third
rail. The current flow is limited to the welding area and
there would be no disturbance in the line.
As I said, I don't know if this practice is common today. I read
an article from the 1950s which indicated that when this was done,
a "stick man" was stationed near the welder to push anyone or anything
away that might ground out the operation.
Thank you for the excellent explanation. It's the sort of thing that really gets your mind twisted if you don't understand it, but you explained it very well. Thanks.
[re welding]
Dunno if this is used with live third rails, but NYCT generally uses what might be termed pre-mixed charges for welding. One of these charges, in a (paper?) container, is placed over the area to be welded and ignited.
I believe that's called Thermite welding
That is a cool process - I have seen it done outside on freight rails. Quite spectacular. Powdered iron oxide and aluminum is mixed, and put in a crucible above the joint to be welded, with molds to direct the molten metal to the right spot. A copper disc sits at the bottom of the crucible and keeps the thermite mix from falling out the bottom. After heating the ends of the rails to be welded with torches (needed to make the weld stick) the thermite is lit with a magnesium flare, to initiate the reaction. Lots of smoke and flame - so much that I have trouble believing that anyone does this underground - come billowing out. And I mean lots. The Aluminum oxidizes, reducing the iron oxide to metallic iron, and melting it. Once its hot enough, it melts the copper disc and flows down into the gap between the rails, to make the weld.
Jeff (and others who know a lot about welding, it seems) - what are the advantages of the various welding methods?
Is most seamless rail welded using the thermite method? Does anyone know if that's what they used when they recently replaced the rails on the MFL in Philly?
Yeah, Thermite is cool to watch - isn't there an old urban ledgend about a bunch of college kids welding a trolley car to it's tracks with that stuff?
The LIRR uses Thermite too I think. Heck, I bet most RRs use it for something. I think they also use it for doing the electrical connections to the tracks.
Thermite couldn't be used to do that, there's nothing to prevent the melting material from flowing all over the place. Sounds like another urban legend. College kids would have to haul a lot stuff a long way. Sounds like a lot of work for a little payoff. Grease on the rails is more fun. (And makes the motorman madder.)
At BSM we use both rod and thermite welding to attach bonds to T-Rail, and to weld girder joints. (We use the traditional joint bars on girder, which is then all welded together. Just like the United Railways.
The only Thermite welding I've done is for bonds at joints.
The Thermite process is potentially faster and easier on
new, clean rail, but when making repairs to failed bonds,
it takes a lot of surface preparation. If everything isn't
smooth and clean, the thermite won't stick. Then it's easier
to stick-weld but you have to get a welding rig out to the site.
Yeah, been there, done that. However, our electronics guys (yeah, we got 'em) are working on a 600 volt DC - 120 volt AC solid state converter for the electric welder. Easier to move around (with 3715 - work proceeding, shop expects to have her in service by July 00). Also useful for the electric chainsaw recently acquired.
Harold and I along with a few of our friends carried a track dolly out from a river tube in 1987. (long and very unauthorized story) On this we put a generator. That's how we lug around portable power for chainsaws, mowers, welders etc.
Those are commercially available, of course, if you have the $$$.
We have a rotary converter that does that, but it is a little
bulky. I've been thinking of building a solid state one. The
parts alone are a few hundred bucks.
Come on now!! The train are coasted into the inspection barn and inspected!! There are no third rail in the barn.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
True,there are no 3rd rails in shops. There is however,an "extension cord" type system known as the "trolley" that is attached to cars entering shop buildings. "Coasting" cars into shop areas is a violation of NYCT Rule #39(m). (1992 Book of Rules)
What kind of accident cause R21 #7602 to be crushed like that? Any casualties? Were the R21s singles or married pairs? Isnt it interesting to see how the Styles of graffiti evolved over the period between '73 and '88?
I wondered the same thing when I saw that picutre of 7602. Looks like whatever hit it, climbed right up over the anti-climber!
The R-21/R-22 cars were single cars with cabs at both ends. The next
bunch of cars -- R26's -- came as married pairs with couplers at both ends but only one cab per car.
[ The R-21/R-22 cars were single cars with cabs at both ends. The next bunch of cars -- R26's -- came as married pairs with couplers at both ends but only one cab per car. ]
Actually, the R-26s (and R-27, 29, 30, 32, 33, 36, 38 ...) married-pair cars had cabs at both ends. I believe that the B-end cabs only had conductor's door controls, and not operator's (motorman) controls. The R-44s were the first cars delivered which didn't have cabs at both ends (and, if I recall correctly, some didn't have cabs at either end).
Correct, since -- if memory serves me -- came as ABBA units where 4-car sets were "married", with the two BB cars w/o motorman's controls.
They were'nt married as delivered. They were renumbered and married as they were returned from GOH.
-Hank
The R-44 and R-46's were divided into two groups.
The "A" cars which were even numbered,single ended control motors with a cab at one end only.
The "B" cars which were odd numbered non-control or blind motors with no cabs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As far as I'm concerned, there was only one style of graffiti: repulsive! Hopefully, we'll never see that sort of epidemic again.
I second that motion.
I think there will be a time where graffiti comes back unfortunately. if there is an economic downturn as in the late 70s anything can happen.
That was an R22 (nit-pick!) - and it looks like a work motor hit it, possibly a steeple locomotive or other non-revenue equipment. It was on the center track at Morris-Park when the accident happened. If another revenue car hit it, you would have seen a round, uniform crushing (i.e. R32 #3629) or perhaps a telescoping (i.e. R42 #4664). The flattened end of #7602 suggests that whatever hit it had a different size/shape.
Wayne
There was a lively discussion last month about the differences in the use of the terms: Streetcar, Trolley, LRV, Trackless Trolley, and Trolleybus.
Well, I have a trivia test for you: can anyone tell me what "Carette" is ? Hint: It is/was a mass transit vehicle & runs on rails.
Mr t__:^)
O.K., I'll bite: What is a Carette??? I'v been in the business for 31 years, and 50 years on the planet, referring to "streetcars".
Is a carette the trailer they often used with the old Peter Witt cars?
I thought a Carette was something that Bugs Bunny ate :-)
Rim shot!
The item I read said it was a streetcar pulled by a horse. Mr t__:^)
It's that the new steerable tram they have in Europe?
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Isn't "Carrete" a company in Hong Kong?
Just on a hunch I tried "carette.com" to see what I'd get.
No streetcars, but maybe they could whip us up a subway car that looked like a rolling beer bottle.
Does anyone have any information pertaining to the Morris Park Station on the #5 line. I have done some research on this line when it was owned by the New York Westchester and Boston Rail Road.
I looked up the information on this web site, as well as a book written by the late Roger Arcara. Both sources suggests that the Morris Park station was very large in size in its NYW&B days. There are a few pictures to prove this. However, upon visiting the station, it is actually average in size. The East 180th Station appears to be much larger. Does anyone know if the Morris Park station had gone through some major alterations after the line was sold to the NYC subway (ie, exits closed off, rooms eliminated)?
Thanks.
I don't think the overall size of the station can have changed, but exits were definitely closed off. The only entrance/exit today is the front entrance to the station house at Paulding Ave. and Esplanade (not Esplanade Ave. as the sign in the station mistakenly says, it is just Esplanade, like Broadway or Bowery).
But the remains of another exit can be seen on Colden Ave., one block west. This exit (I have heard it was never an entrance, but I'm not sure) is below track level, under an elevated structure, rather than above track level like the current entrance/exit. It apparently led to stairs which went up to what at one time was the southern end of the platforms. They have since been extended south beyond the point that these stairs would have led to. It would make things easier for me if this entrance could be reopened, but it seems extremely unlikely. A picture of the remains of this entrance or exit (two concrete-filled doorways) is posted here on NYC Subway Resources.
A third entrance was apparently once present at track level, connecting the southbound platform with the base of the stairs at Paulding Ave. and Woodmansten Place. (These stairs lead up to Esplanade and the current entrance; they amount to a "step street" - part of Paulding Avenue - which is maintained by NYCT.) Until the station and the "step street" were rebuilt several years ago, you could see the concrete-filled remains of a doorway at the base of the steps, and a piece of sheet metal covering the spot on the southbound platform (within the "subway" part of the station) where the doorway apparently led to. Today there is nothing left except a slightly different profile in the concrete wall of the station at the point where this entrance once was.
P. S. Compared to the size of the Pelham Parkway station, the Morris Park station is fairly large, although certainly it is smaller than E. 180th St.
Thank you for the usefull information. I will revisit the station and check out the entrances you spoke about.
To my horror, as I was riding the GC shuttle this afternoon, I heard the conductor make his announcement regarding Times Square. He referred to the transfer possibilities there as "the yellow line, the red line, the blue line, the purple line, and the Port Authority Bus Terminal."
Yeeshk!!! I thought I was in Chicago or DC, instead of riding an original section of the subway system that has captured the imagination of all of us.
Probably didn't want to announce A, C, E, N, R, 1, 2, 3, 7, and 9 but sounds inconvinent to the tourist.
I also love out of towners:
"How do I find the purple 7 line?"
"Uh, all 7 lines are purple"
"Yeah, but they said to take the Red 1, Red 2, Red 3,Red 9 uptown, or the Blue A, Blue C, Blue E. All I see here is Yellow N and Yellow R"
(sigh) "That way" (pointing)
"Ok, hey, why are all the lines lettered or numbered if they are color coded?"
"It's the other way around, they're color coded to group them on the map"
(This is my guess as to why they do it)
"Oh, gee, the NY *Metro* is so confusing. And dirty, unlike the DC Metro"
(They *always* call it a Metro too. And then mention how great DC's toy system is)
I'm with you! A subway is a subway is a subway. Those fancy names like "metro" or "people movers" bring to mind art-filled, architecturally-designed underground palaces where moving people from Point A to Point B seems to be a secondary thought. A subway is an underground railroad that is noisy (music to the ears of its fans), smelly (aromatic, again to its fans), grimy from large-scale train brake dust, hot, and above all, functional. They don't need some upscale name to get people to ride them.
I disagree that "Metro" is just some foo-foo euphemism for a subway.
1) The Metropolitan Railway in London (1863!!) and the Metro in Paris (190?) show that the name has just as much heritage as "subway".
2) The DC Metro serves many suburbs as well as the District of Columbia, so "metropolitan" is an apt description of the system, and "Metro" is the inevitable shortened name. Same thing with the "Metro Subway" in Baltimore. On the other hand, the New York system, however large it is, has little if any service outside the city limits. That is not meant as a criticism, merely pointing out that while "Metro" would be a stupid name for the New York subways, it fits DC and Baltimore.
3) The DC system has a large percentage of subway mileage, but it also has a lot of elevated, ground-level, expressway-median, and open-cut mileage. Contrast this to Chicago, where the system is commonly called the L because the subway mileage is a tiny percentage of the system and the system was historically mostly L. I say historically because, with the service on the Kennedy (1970), Eisenhower (nee Congress, 1958), and Dan Ryan (1970) median strips, there's a LOT of median mileage.
Besides, what's wrong with a little euphemizing (is that a word?) if it gets people to ride the system? You state, partly in jest, that a "real" subway is noisy, dirty, and smelly. Oddly enough, most people other than die-hard railfans don't like that sort of thing, and some railfans don't like it too much either. (^: If giving something a made-up name that doesn't have negative emotional baggage gets them to ride the system, where giving it a "red blooded" name will scare some people away, I vote for the foo-foo euphemism. A subway is a subway is a subway, but it's a closed and shuttered subway if enough people are reluctant to ride it.
IMHO, of course.
If anything the DC Metro lines are like a combination of commuter railroad and in-city subway. Since the route mileage is around 90 miles, it is one-third the size of the NYC subway system and larger than any other rapid transit system in North America. Since it goes out about 12-18 miles into 8 (soon to be 9) suburban areas with stations about 1.5 miles apart, it is much like a commuter line in Maryland and in Alexandria City and Fairfax County, Virginia, but with 10-15 minute service. In Arlington County, VA, and the District, it is more like Philadelphia's and Toronto's systems, many stops on a few lines and many bus connections. One could also compare it to the RER in Paris except that it makes many stops in the city.
Just because it is not old, smelly, and falling apart does not mean it is not a good system. It actually was very wise to design it the way they did, commuter-line-like (but much more frequent) in the suburban areas, constructed like a urban rapid transit line to prevent it from having to follow FRA rules, and many downtown stations to be like a subway where it is needed and for the out-of-towners (like you New Yorkers :-) ). It is not built to be like NYC's system. The District of Columbia has a population similar to that of Staten Island in an area a little smaller than Brooklyn. The nearby suburbs have the other 2 million+ people spread out over a 500 square mile area.
In fact, the only complaint I have about the Metro is that the stations are too dark to read in or read the signs in. They were designed to feel like you were underground. I prefer to feel like I am in a brightly lit building, as you do in almost every other system. Also, the floor tiles are slippery outdoors in the snow and rain. Otherwise, it is a comfortable system combining very frequent commuter-line service with a in-city subway. If Metro North could convert its White Plains line (Harlem Line) to subway cars and go right down Lexington Avenue after 125 Street, you'd have the DC Metro right there in NYC.
I think Metrorail is alot better than New York. Some stations are darker than others but you can still read well and the outside stations are not slipepry unlelss you go out from under the canopy. And the service is alot more frequent and trains hardly get held up behind each other.
Last time I was there some of the station ceilings on the Blue and Orange lines had been whitewashed, making them seem brighter (i.e. Capitol South, Eastern Market, etc.) Some are quite dim (Foggy Bottom!) but in most of them, the ambient light is quite pleasant. Most of my photographs underground came out quite well, using simple flash and 400-speed film. The outdoor stations can be VERY dark at night. They should put brighter bulbs inside those globes.
Wayne
OK, I concede defeat! But think about it. There is this great big site on the NY subway and not, as far as I know, one on DC's metro. We all seem to like the old style of subway, such as NY's. London's Underground is very similar. I find Paris, although old, not fast or noisy enough. But that, it seems, appears to an opinion shared only by me!!!!
> There is this great big site on the NY subway and not, as far as I
> know, one on DC's metro.
Well, there's our http://www.nycsubway.org/washdc/ if you haven't seen it.
Thanks, I'll check into it.
It would figure the best site for WMATA fan stuff would be here.
-Hank
The names are optional--I refer to the BART as the subway quite often, but when I lived in Chgo I rode ther 'L'. As to the aesthetics etc., DC Metro as one might expect is monumentalist in design--billions p____ away on fancy silly stuff to impress the plebes. And they load on the entire system about the same as T Square alone--a half million fares. As to service levels-adequate if you don't expect to go anywhere late at night or early on weekends--AND the ripoff fare system.
The fare system isn't as much of a ripoff as it seems. Remember, WMATA is a multi-state, multi-county, multi-municipality operation. There are different distance-based fares charged for crossing state, county, or city lines, depending on where you're going and where you're coming from. It's more of a cross between commuter rail and urban subway, rather than a true subway such as New York's, or a rapid transit system like Chicago's.
New York doesn't have distance fares for 2 reasons; first, we're one city of 5 counties, not 3 or 4 cities and several smaller towns spread across parts of 2 states, and a federal district. Second, it'll be the end of the career of the any person in government who suggests it. Remember, we stuck with the nickel for over 40 years.
-Hank
Hank, your second point is I believe the real deal. DC has had ripoff transit fares since before I was born--25 July 44. I had to pay essentially a double fare to ride the # 20 trolley line from out in MD downtown, even though the total distance was 11 miles--roughly the length of Manhattan Island. The jurisdictional excuse is just that-an excuse. It is the classic case of the sheep don't know better and accept the offering. Same for no overnight service. The DC system is not considered a necessity unlike the TA in NY. Imagine NYC with no all night transit!
Ever try to figure out the old DC cab fares? With the zoning and multiple rider policies, they made the bus/train fares look like a first grade math problem in comparison.
What do you mean "old" DC cab fares??? It's still an incomprehensible mess, with "zones" invented by each driver on his/her whim. You can take the same trip five times in two days and pay five different fares!
But in my experience with DC - every one of those fares will still be less than you would pay for the same trip in NY, Philly, Boston, San Francisco, etc. . .
I went from McPherson Sqaure(more or less) to Takoma Metro Stations by cab for about $8 or $9. In NY that trip would have been more like $15. And NY cab fares are cheaper than most cities.
WAIT! Stop the music! The WMATA has just revised its fare structure. On June 13, it changed. This is what it is:
Trains, same as always. But the rail-to-bus transfer+25 cents is all you need to get on a bus now. There is still no such thing as a bus-to-rail transfer, but that is how they always thought of it, that you were getting the bus part of a multi-mode round trip at half price, now it's half-price + a quarter.
Buses are all $1.10, no zone fares anymore. YAY! All bus transfers are free and good on any route in any direction within 90 minutes.
Finally, they now not only have all-day rail passes for $5.00 (like always) but now will have all-day bus passes for $2.50.
Now if they could just reorganize the bus routes so there weren't hundreds of little sub-routes...
As someoen who has ridden both systems, personally I like NY better. Metro to me is the most sterile piece of junk that could ever be created by incompetent government sleazaballs intent on destroying a perfectly nice trolley system. Give me my mosaics and that distinctive "eau-de-NYC-subway" fragrance any day - personality underground is half the charm of NYC!
DC subways s*&k!
Sounds like WMATA took a lesson from their neighbors up the road. In Baltimore, the MTA fare is $1.35 per ride - no transfers or zones. An all day pass is $3.00 and is sold on all buses and subway/Light Rail ticket machines and is good for unlimited rides on the day of issue. Weekly and Monthly Passes are available. Such a deal!!!
I agree with Hank - the Metro covers a huge area. It extends into most of the suburbs surrounding the city. I would equate it with Philly's entire transit system - rapid transit, light rail, and commuter rail put together. But the Metro runs much smoother, faster, and is much more confortable than any of Philly's OR New York's lines, so there is more value there.
Philly's commuter rail has zoned fares, and are equivalent to the Metro's, more or less.
The Metro can replace commuter rail because it runs so fast. 70 MpH is not uncommon, so it can shoot out to the suburbs with no problem.
Having been to DC in the last month, I can make the following comments on the Metro:
- I don't think that I saw a single piece of trash on any of the platforms or in the cars. That was absolutely amazing.
- The cars were great to travel in. I didn't have to worry about getting unknowns on my slacks when I sat.
- The platforms were a little dark. The larger stations could be a little confusing (probably as confusing as Times Square to a foreigner!), but the staff were more than willing to help out.
- The $5 all you can ride pass worked out great.
- I was able to train to the plane!
There were comments made in comparison to the NYC system. In reality, it's an apples to oranges comparison. The DC system is far newer, so the newer technologies that exist there did not exist in 1904 (and retrofit would be too costly).
The comments made about the Metro being a Commuter Rail/Subway combo seem to be right on too.
But none of these are ferryboats...
Chip
Talking about the DC Metro, does anyone know when the link on the
Green Line between Fort Totten and U-St. Cardozo will open? I thought
it was sometime this year. Without it, you have to transfer from the Green Line at fort Totten to a Red train to continue into town!
Chuck Greene
The Green Line connection will open on:
Saturday, September 18, 1999.
At that time, the Red Line shortcut will be eliminated.
Two new stations will open: Columbia Heights (14th & Irving NW) and
Georgia Avenue-Petworth (Georgia and New Hampshire Ave NW)
I'll be down there September 20th and 21st to take pictures.
Wayne
Do you know when the Extension from Anacostia to Branch Avenue will open? How far along the construction are they?
Two years (2001) at the least, maybe three.
Here's what they have to build:
1) Deep subway from Anacostia to just south of Congress Heights
2) Deep subway station at Congress Heights
3) Open-cut (White Flint style) station at Southern Ave
4) Short section of shallow subway between Southern Ave & Naylor Road
5) Low elevated or embankment station at Naylor Road
6) Ground level ROW from Naylor Road to Branch Avenue
7) Ground level stations at Suitland and Branch Avenue
8) Yard and maintenance facility near Branch Avenue
9) Parking facilities for most of the above.
I think the subway part is either nearly done or well on its way.
If I get any more info or if anyone else has more detailed info,
please pass it along.
Wayne
Thanks, Wayne. Where do you get all this great info? It's a
pleasure reading your posts each time.
Thanks again,
Chuck Greene
This particular piece of information was passed on to me first by my Dad, who lives 77 miles outside of Washington in Winchester, VA.
It was then confirmed by another contributor to SubTalk, but I forget their name. As soon as I got the date, I circled September 18 on both of my calendars, in green, of course.
PS My bets are on long arches for both stations (like Mt.Vernon Square-UDC). They're finished making waffles; "U" Street was the last one. The long arches are pre-fab rather than poured moulds.
Wayne
Thanks, again, Wayne. It's nice to have your dad as a railfan
down in D.C. My grown son, 26 works at The U. of MD in College Park and couldn't help me out with any info. My wife is also non-transit and I don't usually take her on fan trips. I dragged her out to Pittsburgh where we took a CERA fan trip on Rtes, 52, 42s , 42L.and the pcc trip on the Drake line. We had a great operator named Mike Cooke, and the only thing my wife enjoyed was the lunch stop at South Hills Village at the "Eat and Park".
I'm going on the ERA trip this Saturday (I'll meet Jim K.) on the Norristown line, Sharon Hill,and Media routes.
Thanks again,
Chuck Greene
> I'm going on the ERA trip this Saturday (I'll meet Jim K.) on the
> Norristown line, Sharon Hill,and Media routes.
I'll be on Saturday & Sunday's trips. Any others?
Anyone going to be in the area on Friday for independent exploration?
-Dave
I'll be in for all the ERA festivities; Jim K.'s due in also.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Guess , I'll finally meet you, Ed. I'll be hangoing around with Jim K. and I'll have my Septa Market st. el Tee-shirt on (dark blue).
It's supposed to be ninety degrees on Saturday, the only trip I'm taking- glad the trolleys all have A/C.
See you Saturday,
Chuck Greene
Service is not as good as it's cracked up to be. It took me an hour to get from National Airport to Dupont Circle on the Metro on a Friday evening, and 45 minutes going back the other way on a Sunday afternoon. (The WMATA web page says this trip should take 24 minutes.) Now, it's great that the Metro goes right to the heart of the airport-- something NY seems like it will never get right-- but it was frustrating waiting on platforms for trains that took forever to show up. The platforms were crowded too, indicating that more service should have been provided.
And I really dislike the signage. (If you're going to have a system with line colors, make it obvious-- DC stations and trains do a very poor job conveying to me what line I'm on or headed for. Compare with Boston.)
On the bright side, I saw what looked like the DC money train while I was waiting at Gallery Place.
"Just because it is not old, smelly, and falling apart does not mean it is not a good system."
The simple fact about the DC Metro is...it is boring. There is no history. No variety. Every station looks the same. The New York subway system, of which we spend the most time speaking of, is varied. It has a long history. It has abandoned stations, remodeled stations, a vast amount of artwork and tiling, nearly a century's worth of history, cars built as far back as I believe 1958 still running. It is an adventure, and covers all types of terrain.
You see, this is what I meant. New York, London, and all the older systems in the world were built with a different design than those of today. In another 50 years, maybe we (well not most of us) will be looking at the DC system in awe as newer systems and their designs have eclipsed its.
Well, I would have to say that the DC Metro stations look similar, but there are some differences. Certainly the overall feel is the same. But you do have your variations: i.e., Smithsonian doesn't look quite the same as Woodley Park-Zoo. Ditto for oddball stations like Anacostia, Rosslyn (and Pentagon), and the transfer stops. I guess if you wanted to define a "typical" Metro station, you could use Judiciary Square (for side-platforms) and Capitol South (for island platforms). There is a fair amount of variety when it comes to the outdoor stations due to variances in terrain etc. Prince George's Plaza is an example of an "oddball" outdoor stop. So are Franconia-Springfield and Huntington.
Of course, nothing beats New York's system when it comes to variety.
I am hard pressed to find two stations that are exactly identical. Each one has a slightly different layout. Many are similar (i.e. the Bronx' #2/#5 elevated, some of the IND stops), but each is slightly different from the next.
Wayne
Beverley Road and Cortelyou Road on the D train are nearly identical, but then again Beverley Road was built to please some Assemblyman who would not vote for the system unless a station got built near his house. (Lest you think I am complaining, I spent my first 22 year using that Beverley Road station so I definitely got the benefit of that guy's obstinacy.)
If it's underground it's a subway, but most systems are only partly underground. It wouldn't make much sense to call the Chicago 'L' a subway, or the SkyTrain in Vancouver a subway, or BART a subway.....
OPTO! A conductor would never have been allowed to get away with crap like that!
I noticed on my last stay in NY that the new maps are not giving accurate info. I noticed that the local stops on the Fulton Street IND showed A and C both as part time which is not true, the box with the connections at Chambers and Marcy Avenue shows the J and Z stop there at some point in the day, the M is part time between Marcy and Myrtle, and there was no box alerting passengers of the Williamsburg Bridge construction at the bottom. I hypothesised that it was so they could easily change the map back to its original state when the bridge has train service again, but why confuse people any more than they will with different services, restrictions, and all that?
"Fulton Street IND showed A and C both as part time " C trains do not run at night, A trains run express during the day. By the vaugaries of logic, both lines are part-time at these stations; the stations, however, are full time.
But the policy for 19 years (since the first revision of the new style map) was to treat lines that run all times except night as full time, with bold letters at the stations, and lines that run or go local only at night as not shown stopping there. They just forgpt to change these things.
In that case, why is the 5 marked as part time south of 180th Street but the 3 full time on the whole line even though it doesn't run from 6AM-10AM on Sunday?
Answer to Both:
The A does not stop at Fulton St. local stops weekday 6 AM - 11 PM.
The C does not stop at Fulton St. local stops weekends.
That is why they are both part-time at those stations.
The 5 does not stop at the stations south of 180 St. to 149-3rd Avenue during rush hours in the peak direction, so that is part-time service,too.
Since every station (except for 5 of them) are served 100% full-time by something, it makes sense to list services as part-time. They all add up to full time service.
As far as the lack of Williamsburg Bridge service is concerned, it is odd that it is not mentioned on the map.
Correction: Under NORMAL circumstances, 4 stations are unused part-time, right? Broad St. Fulton St., 145 St. and 148 St.
Mea Culpa for the wrong number...
The C doesn't go to the WTC on weekends anymore. It is always running on Fulton Street from 6AM-12AM, every day. The 5 train between 3rd Avenue and Bowling Green is also marked as part time, too.
Never mind... I guess I haven't been there recently enough.
What is the definition of "night"? If the C stops running at 9 PM, which I think is the case, that doesn't qualify as "all times except nights", which I think means that trains must run till at least 11 PM.
The C has been extended to past 9. Almost to 11.
The front of the map only shows service between 6 AM and 12 AM according to the legend. For instance, the 4 and 6 aren't both shown as part time at 77th Street.
The A express-to-local switchover does NOT occur at Midnight; rather, according to my map (which is six months older, but this shouldn't make a difference), the C train ceases service at around 10 PM and the A trains switches to local around the same time.
It does make a difference. When the A got express service through Brooklyn on weekends (i.e., when the Williamsburg Bridge tracks shut down), it also got evening express service extended until when "Late Night Service" begins, at midnight.
Furthermore, on the previous few maps, I was surprised to see the use of the section of tunnel from the BMT 57th St. station to the Lex & 63rd Street station. I think this was in some way related to the Queens 63rd St. connection work. The new May 99 map shows reversion to the old connection between Lex & 63rd and the 6th Ave subway.
I didn't even know this (BMT) tunnel existed. Can anyone tell me whether this small part of the system was ever used in revenue service before, and will it be used again, perhaps when the new 63rd St. connection opens in Queens? Also, any other tunnels not in revenue service right now? (I seem to remember travelling through one on a transit museum "Nostalgia Train" formerly served by a short-lived "K" train.
Other than the recent 63rd St. Shuttle and occasional reroutes, there has never been revenue service through the 63rd St. to 57th St./7th Ave. connection.
The "K" connection between Essex St. and Broadway-Lafayette was used from July 1, 1968 until sometime in 1973 (or maybe '74 ?)
As for other unused connections, there is the connection between Bowling Green and South Ferry stations which is no longer in regular use (but was used recently for some late night and weekend reroutes).
Then there's "Hammel's Wye" in the Rockaways, but its only one track.
Isn't the connection on the Lex between Bowling Green and South Ferry used by the #5 trains which terminate at Bowling Green? Of course, passengers aren't carried, but I thought the #5 runs light on that track to turn around. If I'm wrong, how do the #5 trains which terminate at Bowling Green turn back?
trains from Lexington Ave are relayed on i thinks its called B loop and seventh ave operate on A loop. Just outside Bowling Green Station on B loop a switch connects to A loop to switch from Lexington to Seventh ave and just north of A loop on South Ferry Station (#1) another switch to go from Seventh ave to Lexington Ave lines.
Yes. I have been at South Ferry waiting for the #1 and seen /heard the 5 on the inner loop.
It's hard not to hear the No. 5 on the inner loop. With those squeals, deaf people could hear the No. 5 on the inner loop. Is any water spray used on those tracks for noise reduction, the way it is on the outer loop track?
Ditto for the #5 as it enters 149th St-Grand Concourse-Mott Avenue. The R29 cars seem to make more wheel noise than the R26/R28. I had made particular note of #8718-8719 (especially the latter) making what I thought was excessive wheel noise the last time I was at Mott.
Wayne
Has anyone noticed that the first five and the last five cars of the #4 train use drawbars? The headlights, red marker lights and the motorman's cab still exists on the drawbar coupled cars, but the controller, the brake handle and the reverse lever have been removed. Cars on the #5 train can still be uncoupled individually if needed.
Cars on the 5 can only uncouple in married pairs.
You're right Alex. I forgot that most cars on the IRT are married pairs.
The Redbirds are married pairs. I did see some R-62s on the 5 last fall.
most of the R-62a on the #5 are five car units. eventually most of the r62a will be link barred. For that fact the R62a's on the five are used on midnight opto shuttle from 180-Dyre...
That's actually called a 'linkbar'. The drawbar connects the coupler to its mounting point. Similar, yet different. Most of the single R62 and many of the single R62A has been linked into 5-car sets as MDBF rates have increased (dramatically) to reduce maintainance costs on parts that are not needed in a 5-car set. For instance, I believe 1 air compressor has been removed from each set of 5, along with the operators controller. The brake valve and reverser key slot have been capped. The same is has been done to most of the R68/68A fleet, which have been linked into 4-car sets, as have the R44/46.
-Hank
I was just wondering, now that the R110A returned to its yard after repairs last week,if anyone has an idea when we will see it in passenger service again, or if any other sightings have occured? -Nick
No idea as of yet, but it will return. I'll inform you when I get the info.
Thank you very much, Maurice. I'm sure many subtalkers will appreciate the info when you get it :) -Nick
Just read some of the stuff on the site about the never finished 2nd Ave IND. I can't find any mention of why work was halted.
Loss of funding due to the city fiscal crisis in the mid 70's. The money that was to be used for construction was diverted to keep the system running.
-Hank
[Why the 2nd Avenue line wasn't built]
[Loss of funding due to the city fiscal crisis in the mid 70's. The money that was to be used for construction was diverted to keep the system running.]
This diversion is known as the "Beame Shuffle," after its mastermind, then-Mayor Abraham Beame.
He and his pals were also the ones wo figures out how to make the fiscal 1973 budget balance for the schools -- add the first couple of days revenue from fiscal 1974 to the total, and worry about how you're going to replace those lost days later.
Between the city's financial scams and Bill Ronan's mismangement of the MTA, it was no wonder the Second Ave. line was DOA by 1976.
It was the great near insolvency of the city, no doubt accelerated by the general inflation/energy hoax treason committed against the average citizen by the money establishment. There was a headline in the period something like Ford to NY Drop Dead.
The city was broke (all cities were), and the moneyed "treason" was the failure to continue loaning money that couldn't be paid back. Ridership was falling, as was employment. There seemed no reason to build anything. The real treason was committed by Wagner and Lindsey, who knew that their kind of people were moving out and ran up the debt while defferring maintenance on the infrastructure, the future be damned.
Of course, those conditions are now reversed, but other priorities are sucking up the funds. Perhaps as we approach the city's employment peak (reached in 1969) the demands to build something will increase.
The 2nd Avenue line that was under construction from 1972 to '75 (actually some work continued until 1978) was not the same as the one proposed in the IND "second system" plans. The 1970s version was a two track line, although it had a few three and four track segments.
The other posts here mention the city fiscal crisis of the 1970s. During the 1980s and '90s the MTA concentrated on renovation of the existing system rather than expansion. I think one of the assumptions made was that ridership would remain stable or decline on most lines.Most people thought population and ridership in the Bronx would continue to drop, and the Lexingtion Avenue line could handle the needs of Manhattan and whatever ridership that remained from the Bronx.
Just a reminder...
The Shore Line Trolley Museum will present New York in June
on Saturday and Sunday, June 26/27.
The museum's extensive collection of NY-area rail vehicles
frames the story of public transportation in New York City,
and how its network of rail services helped to meld scattered
towns and villages into a unified City of New York.
Many NYC trolley, elevated and subway cars will be in operation
from 10:30 AM to 4:30 PM on both days.
As a special promotion on this weekend, you'll receive one lesson
on trolley or rapid transit car operation (yes, handle time)
when you become a new member of the museum at the REGULAR
membership level (or ASSOCIATE if you are 12-17 years old), or
upgrade your membership. Lessons will be given after the last
regularly scheduled public trip at 4:30
The museum is convenient by automobile, rail, or, in answer to
one inquiry I received, private aviation.
For more details, please see
www.bera.org or call the museum at (203) 467-6927.
Hey Check out the High Speed Ferry article at ABCNews.com
>>>>>>>> http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/ferries990621.html
It happened again this morning...while waiting on the Manhattan-bound B train, riders found that some B's were, for some reason, running on the express track. This has been happening with more and more frequency. Anyone have any idea why?
Don't M trains run there anymore? Maybe the system got backed up and they ran some B trains express to ease the congestion. I would just take whatever came along to 36 St., take whatever express came along to DeKalb (N) for the D and Q, or the B directly into Midtown.
It is odd that they would do that, though...
I still miss the Culver Shuttle. We (my friends in high school) used to (in the mid-1960's) call it the Cemetery and Bocci Ball Railroad (C&BBRR) because it ran next to Greenwood Cemetery and over the abandoned railroad tracks along 37 St. used on weekend for bocci ball games.
Down here in Our Nation's Capital, many of us say "waiting on something to happen" or "waiting on someone to show up". But I have never heard that north of the Mason-Dixon line, where everyone "waits for" something or someone. In fact, the only time I've ever heard it used up north is in the sentence:
Waitin' on? -- what? -- are you kidding me? Who says that? You trying to talk southern or something?"
often spoken by relatives of mine still up in NYC.
Anyway thanks for being the first New Yorker to ever use "waiting on" without adding "me hand and foot."
:-)
OK, I digress, but as a long-time North Carolinian (Southern by heritage and long-time residence but not, unfortunately, born there) now stuck temporarily in New Jersey, I drive the locals (in NJ) crazy with "where do you stay at?" Then I have to explain that I'm asking them where they live, and about half the time they still don't get it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's OK. My father has always said, "Unhook the door" instead of "Unlkock the door" (translated from Lithuanian). He grew up on a farm in the old country, and the phrase stuck. Since we know what he's talking about, we don't correct him.
Sorry for getting off topic.
Assuming this is in the AM rush hour between Bay Parkway and 36th St., maybe it is a way to test the acceptablility of some partial peak direction express service? This doesn't happen, outbound, in the time of the PM peak period?
Does what you experience show up on the MTA web site train diversion web page?
Mike Rothenberg
I was too young to remember this, but many older Brooklynites recall pre-Verrazano Bridge Staten Island Ferry service. Apparently it originated from the 69th street pier in Bay Ridge. Why can't this service be re-instituted as an alternative to Manhattan-based ferry service and to help ease the all ready congested God-awful Gowanus Expressway?
It would require someone on SI to either walk up to Fourth Ave. to catch the R or have a bus running to the train with Metrocard transfer. If you're taking a bus or SIRT down to St. George to begin with, that's a lot of transfers before you even get out of Bay Ridge.
There was Brooklyn-Staten Island ferry service from 39th Street as well as 69th Street. I don't know what year the 39th Street ferries were stopped; I never rode it. I was on the last round-trip from 69th Street (and, sorry to say, drove across the V-N the first day it was open--and, stupidly, forgot to ask for a receipt).
For a short time, it was cheaper for Bay Ridgites to go to Manhattan using the two ferries, since each ferry was a nickel and the subway was fifteen cents. During warm weather, many who worked in the financial district (which used to be staffed heavily from southern Brooklyn) also used to go home via the two ferries. The 69th Street ferry also used to get a lot of summer evening riders from Bay Ridge using the ride to cool off.
Alas, when the ferry service ended, a trip from St. George to 69th Street and Shore Road had a fare increase from a nickel to forty-five cents, since you'd have to use three buses with no transfers to get from one bus to another. That was probably the largest point-to-point fare increase in the City's history with the possible exception of the elimination of the downtown Brooklyn free transfer zone. (I used to go from Bay Ridge to Corona once in a while using four buses but paying only one fare--that lasted until the TA "improved" Brooklyn bus service. So instead of what cost 15 cents [and before that, 5, 7, and 10 cents], the current fare for that trip would be $4.50. But that's mostly Brooklyn, and it's fairly obvious what's been done to Brooklyn during the TA years.
Don't the Bay Ridge Avenue and 60th Street buses still run down to the ferry? And with Metrocard, wouldn't a transfer be possible? Maybe a specially designed ferry could carry buses across, possibly linking the 60th Street bus with one of the Staten Island lines. That would
allow Staten Island riders to change to the subway at 59th Street/4th Avenue (which would be handy for the hour of express service each week).
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I rode the (relatively) small "electric ferry" between Brooklyn and Staten Island many yimes. It was a really nice, brisk ride. The ferries left from the 69th Street dock in Brooklyn. The slips were on the south side of the dock, so that you walked or drove out onto the dock, then turned left onto the ferry.
One thing I don't miss about the ferry (Brooklyn or New York) was trying to get a car on it. More than a couple of times, I waited as much as two hours in long, hot, waiting lines to board.
Up until the early 60's there were also Staten Island ferries to Perth Amboy, Carteret and Bayonne, even though there were bridges to or near all three locations for decades earlier.
i also remember a ferry to elizbeth nj also. it held only about 10 cars. the "24" bus meet the ferry. it ran to west orange through newark.
That bus still exists, and still runs between West Orange and Elizabeth.
It is run by ONE (Orange-Newark-Elizabeth) Bus Company.
Wasn't there a ferry service between Staten Island and Jersey that was recently discontinued? A NY WATERWAY service?
The "New York Bay Ferry" ran between St George and 39 St,Brooklyn from 1924 to 1946. Service was "Temporarily" suspended on June 25,1946 when the ferry terminal at Saint George caught fire. Three people including a SIRTRy ticket seller were killed and almost 300 were injured. Normal service didn't resume until June 28 and the Whitehall St boats took over the slips of the 39 St Ferry which was discontinued.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The last I heard, the 69th St pier had been closed down due to piling rot. Certainly, at this point in time, you'll never get the people in Bay Ridge to agree to a return of ferry service. However, every now and then, we here in SI hear rumors of wanting to start ferry service between SI and downtown Brooklyn ( the foot of Atlantic Ave or Fulton St under the Brooklyn Bridge). Personally, I don't hold much hope for this, since some group somewhere will do everything in its power to stop it.
What about some kind of high speed truck ferry that can carry Tractor Trailers from the Bronx or New Jersey to the points on Long Island or Staten Island thus easing congestion on Bridges, Tunnels and expressways???
What about forcing the trucks to use such a system by banning trucks on more bridges and roadways???
[ LI - NJ truck ferries ? ]
I think such ferries would be a good thing. As it is, living on LI, I save a lot of hard driving when going to New England by using the Orient-New London ferry.
I see a few problems, however. If the ferries dock on LI, how do they get to New England or the City, where a lot are destined?
Also, there is a real problem as to where such ferries could dock on LI. You need a clear shipping lane and reasonably deep water. Then you need truck highways (of which there is only one, NY135, from anywhere on the South Shore to the LIE. This is a lot of construction in a very crowded area to avoid relatively few miles of current highway.
How about that Narrows RAIL freight tunnel?
In Switerland a couple of the railroads have souped up flatcars that you drive on and the train takes you threw a tunnel across the mountan, promiceing but from what i hear about how backed up your rail tunnels are already :-(
(Flatcars to take you through a mountain). That's my suggestion for a rail freight tunnel. There will never be enough cross-harbor rail traffic to justify its cost. But if truckers could drive onto a train and take a brake in a rolling truck stop as they cross the harbor, instead of sitting in traffic, and for the cost of a toll, that might work. That's how the Channel Tunnel works -- or worked before a truck caught fire and burned the thing up.
For Ferries I was thinking along the lines of The East Bronx, East Westchester or Conn. to points in northern Queens, and Nassau. A high Speed Ferry like the one described in the ABC News Artilce (see my other post yesterday) might do a world of good for truck traffic that otherwise has to pass throught the Bronx and Queens prviding some relief on the Whitestone or Throgsneck as well as the highways throught those boroughs.
Another High Speed Ferry from Say Newark or ponts along that maze of industrial waterways around Elizabeth and the like could allow trucks to bypass Southern Manhattan or Staten Island and hit some point past Fort Hamilton and thus ease the BQE, Gowanaus, Varranzano, Outerbridge and the like. These roads, as we all know, are among the worst in the world so it seems that no idea is too far fetched to ponder.
I like the freight rail idea too. Here's how I would do that one. Send trucks on flatcars under the hudson throught the Penn Yards in the West 30's and down the route of the old NY Central or under the West Side Highway; around the tip of Manhattan and through a newly constructed tunnel under the East River to Brooklyn. The tunnel would land at the Foot of Atlantic Avenue where trains would follow Atlantic to meet the LIRR tracks at Flatbush Ave. By the way this is also my plan for a rail line linking New Jersey, Penn Station, World Trade, Atlantic Ave. and JFK. Perhapse they could kill two birds with one tunnel and do both!!!
How about a two-level tunnel under the Huson and East Rivers at 125th Street, linking NJ with the Tri-boro Bridge and the Hell Gate rail line?
Another idea for a high-Speed truck Ferry might be something along the lines of Nayak or Fort Lee to a trucking Terminal along the waterfront around 57th Street or around 23rd Street. Just the thought of getting a truck from Nayak or Fort Lee to Mid-Manhattan instills agony in troughout the Whole North East. A Ferry between these points would be so much faster; would be the most direct route and would take scores of trucks off the GWB, the Tappan Zee and the highways and byways of Westchester, The Bronx and Upper Manhattan.
A little while back a gentleman asked about the IND 2 Avenue Subway.
I believe he was referring to the original one in the early 1950's which was to be financed by a bond issue approved by the voters.
Diligent efforts by railfans and other concerned citizens have yet to locate any trace of this line or the money that was supposed to finance it. (Kind of like the Dewey Presidency)
Larry,RedbirdR33
< Diligent efforts by railfans and other concerned citizens have yet to locate any trace of this line [...] >
Actually, Larry, a little of the line was built and as in use today. We call it the Chrystie Street connection, and Grand Street is the only station of the 2nd Avenue Subway built and opened.
Other construction contemplated in the bond issue as auxiliary to the 2nd Ave. line were also built, including the 6th Avenue express tracks and the 60th St. tunnel connection.
But I have the solution to the whole problem! Switch the names of 2nd and 8th Avenues. So, with a stroke of the pen, we'll finally have the 2nd Avenue Subway, and a 4 track one at that!
Then we can leave it to others to agitate for an 8th Avenue subway. (I oughta run for Mayor).
Hey, Larry, you're forgetting the ORIGINAL original plans, from the 20s?
-Hank
Hank: No kidding. I didn't know it went back that far. I wonder if that was another bond issue that evaporated?
Larry,RedbirdR33
They were part of the City's wish list that we now call the IND Second Systemn.
Boys, all this info is available at www.nycsubway.org. What is not available is why construction that was finally started in the seventies was never completed. Please, someone tell me why.
We talked about that here on SubTalk within the past week.
Simple answer: $$$
Complex answer: Politics and $$$.
-Dave
The fiscal crisis of 1975 killed it off.
Check out the IND second system specs at NYC Subway resources. The plan was for a 6 track line with trains going to the Bronx, taking over the White Plains Road line and trains to Queens, as well as Brooklyn via the Manhattan Bridge. In fact the Grand St/Christie St. line was originally inteneded to connect into a Second Ave. line, not 6th Ave.
The Chrystie St. connection technically is part of the 2nd Ave. line. The Grand St. station was designed to be expanded into a four-track, two island platform station, and the walls you see today would be knocked out. There are rumors that trackways exist on the other sides of those walls, and the segment south of Grand St. which was built in the 70s features trackways which spread apart as they approach Grand St.
The Second System included other lines which were never built. Most of them would have tied into IND lines which were built, and provisions for these connections still exist throughout the division. In fact, the Archer Ave. line utilizes a connection which was originally put in for a proposed line down Van Wyck Blvd.
There was a transit improvements bond issue which the voters of NYC approved in the early 1950s. While the bond issue did not say specifically what improvements it would pay for, the politicians at the time sold it to the voters by promising many extensions to the existing subway system, including the 2nd Ave. subway in Manhattan, extension of the IRT Nostrand/Flatbush line in Brooklyn, and multiple extensions into Eastern Queens.
As it turned out, the system at the time was in need of major overhaul. Most of the money went to things such as replacement of rolling stock, signalling systems, and tracks. Other improvements like platform lengthening and re-engineering junctions for better traffic flow (such as DeKalb Ave.) were included. I'm not sure if the Rockaway extension was financed out of this bond issue.
-- Ed Sachs
I know that dead traction motors is something that has plagued the MTA back in the 1980s when car maintenance took a back seat. I have noticed on occasion that when I'm in the last car of the F train leaving 179th Street, sometimes I don't hear the telltale whine of the traction motor; the car feel like it's being pulled rather than moving on its own or freewheeling. Then when the train leaves Forest Hills, the traction motor starts working again. Can anyone explain this curious trait?
Maybe the t/o pushed the reset button.
Maybe you have both shoe fuses dead on one side of the
car. Were the A/C fans running?
Yes, both A/C units were running. I never considered the shoe fuses. I didn't even know there were such things!
Ya gotta hear one BLOW! THUNDER in a tunnel!
If the HVAC was running, then the shoe fuses were not blown. More likely the propulsion was operating normally but you did not feel it until the crowd in the car had sufficient weight to force the car into AW3 (heavy load). In heavy load, the propulsion responds far more definitively to propulsion commands.
I know. Sometimes a traction motor will "kick in" after a number of seconds after the others have already kicked in. Dead Motors have always been a problem. There are many in the R32 Jamaica fleet. I experience it every day. If it's one or two, you can get away with it. More, and you have a slow train. The dispatcher sends them to the yard, but more dead cars appear the next day. I don't think this has an adverse effect on the MDBF unless a train gets taken out of service and an interval is cancelled (abandoned). Many times those squealing brakes mean a dead motor due to dynamic brake being dead as well. Those yellow fault lights on the side of the cars only tell that a motor has dropped out and can no longer be reset from the motormans cab. In other words, you can have a dead motor without a fault light.
A dead motor automatically means dynamic brake is dead. You can have a live motor, yet it is possible for dynamic brake to be inoperative.
The term dead motor used here implies non-operating as opposed to defective. Many defects in the control system can cause the motors to be inpoerative, but can be easily and quickly repaired. A truely dead motor is a major repair, requiring shop labor to pull a truck and swap motors, and then expensive internal repairs. Armatures are particularly difficult and expensive to repair due to the way the coils are wound on the core. Field coils are more easily repaired, since they are simpler. Mechanical failures are simple as long as they don't mushroom into electrical failures. A favorite is wear in an armature bearing causing the armature to drag on a pole piece. The bearing is cheap - once the armature is damaged $$$$$!
The term "Dead Motor" has come to mean any car that will not take power when given the 'command' to do so. As for the Jamaica R-32 fleet, there are several reasons why there is a sudden spurt in the number of cars with dead motors or squealing brakes. Many of the cars have recently been transferred to the Jamaica Shop fleet due to the Williamsburg Bridge closing. In addition, the cars are now 11 years removed from their last overhaul and if they are going to be kept around, will need to undergo a 12 year SMS (including propulsion package replacement/overhaul)
So are you saying Pitkin gave you the worst cars they had?
No, we gave Phase I cars to Pitkin. We got Phase II cars from Coney Island. Coney Island Phase II R-32s, because of GE controllers interfacing with Westinghouse Master Controllers, have inherant propulsion problems that the Phase I cars do not have. I did not mean to imply that Jamaica Shop does a better job with maintenance than Coney island does :).
Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know traction motors can be so difficult to repair.
Sometimes, the car with the dead traction motor is on the head end of the train. That has happened to me one time when I was on the E train going to Queens. I don't know the car model but it's the stainless steel one with the corrugated sides. The first car is actually being pushed by the one behind it. It makes for a smoother ride though. Acceleration and braking don't seem to be affected, but the rest of the train probably has to work harder to attain speed.
It's an R32. If the car squeals in high-speed braking,
then it is probably a dead motor. Another way to tell
(without cheating and looking at the ammeter) is to
look for the flash when the car goes over a gap with
power on. Also, you can feel each car out for dead/good
when going over a gap uphill.
During braking, I usually can hear the dymamics working. That day, I heard nothing from the traction motors. I just wonder if the motor sustains any damage if it is turning but not taking power. Sometimes, the last car jerks going over a gap, Sometimes, on occasion, the motor kicks in after going over the gap.
Motors won't get hurt just being dragged around with no current
flowing through them. I think the most likely scenario for
the case you described is the train left with a "dead motor"
(a car that was not taking power) and the train operator at
some point used the reset.
Thanks for solving that mystery. Believe it or not, the R32 rides smoother if the motors on the last car are not funtioning. You don't feel that push when the motors start taking power.
You shoulda seen the 32s before they went out for GOH.
SOP was to use the side door bypass to get going, otherwise
with all the banging and clanging 21 wire had a way of opening
up on the electric portions and causing a real thump! And
they were HOT cars too. But they ran fast and stopped well.
operative word: STOPPED WELL.
Of course they were hot. They were not air conditioned...
I think this is one of the system's finer stations. I marvel in its beauty. What has been done to keep it up so well?
First, I'll ask what 86st station in Brooklyn, as there are 2.
Second, are you smoking somthing, or did you forget to activate your sarcasm tags?
-Hank :)
If you're referring to the underground station, there's nothing to see there - the walls are blank. Perhaps the mezzanine has something to offer, but the platform-level's one of the ugliest stations I've ever seen - right up there with Lawrence Street.
I wonder if there was not a water main break there long ago and the tile was damaged beyond repair by water (as was the case at Atlantic Avenue "D"/"Q" and Lawrence Street), as there is evidence that tile did once exist. There is a partial tile band on the side of a platform wall near the north end - it is light green in the middle with royal blue, white and medium green at the edges and in the "X" patterns, consistent with other designs such as 95th St, 59th St, 36th St, Pacific St., De Kalb, and 9th Ave. lower level. It does not include the "globe" patterns, just the "X"s.
Wayne
I think 86th lost its tiles at the same time the MTA was going to its blue and white cinder block walls on the BMT Fourth Ave. local stations. They may have planned to put the same walls up there, even though it has the center platform, and then abandoned the idea because of the disruptions it would have caused.
Now they can put up "pre-fab" tile panels at island platform stations.
These are up on the IND at Chambers St-WTC ("A"/"C"), 7th Ave-53rd St,
207th Street, Canal Street and may be going up at 14th St-8th Avenue. They hang on studs (Chambers St) or attach to laths (207th St). It could be designed in such a way that sections of reproduced original tile pattern could go on each panel. You'd need about six different panel types to reproduce that kind of frieze design, including one whole panel for the name tablet. I think they should do this at Lawrence Street, Atlantic Avenue on the "D"/"Q" and also at Wilson Avenue on the "L" - although recreating THAT frieze would be quite difficult due to the large number of colors (28), wide variety of shapes involved and the intricacy of the mosaic design itself. Each panel would have to have its frieze portion hand-crafted from photos or drawings of the original and each tile (some as small as ½" square) would have to be hand-set.
Wayne
Is that also the way Brooklyn Bridge was done on the IRT Lex? That was the first island platform station I can recall getting a makeover in recent years.
Basically, yes; that appears to be panel tile at Brooklyn Bridge.
They are using larger-than-normal white tiles there.
Wayne
It is panel tile. I saw it installed.
I would think 86/4th Ave. would be high on the TA's rehabbed station list, as it is heavily used as a x-fer point to Staten Island busses and is in terrible shape right now.
Then again, it may have already been put on the list and had millions spent on it and we'd never know because of the awful way the station rehab contract situation is. LOL
Does anyone know how long the flower shop located in the station has been open?
Can anyone explain traction motor flashover and what causes it?
I think it's when the motor arcs over between two brushes, as opposed to running the electricity through the commutator, or arcs in general. I think it's caused by sudden jolts to the motor, I know GM recomends notching their diesls down at railroad crossings (do they mean grade or switcxhes/crossovers?) to prevent it. It might also be a function of motor design, and AC synchronus motrs don't do it because there are no brushes on them. The PRR MP-54s also couldn't reapply power at around 30mph for the same reason. I don't really understand it fully though.
A commutator consists of a ring of copper segments interposed
with thin mica insulating segments. To prevent chipped mica,
the mica segments are undercut about 1/32" inch below the
surface of the copper. If motors are not kept clean, dirt
accumulates in between the copper bars. Under normal conditions
of cleanliness, a railway motor can tolerate about 20-30 volts
between commutator bars, and since there are usually 30 or more
bars between the brushes (which are mounted 90 degrees apart)
the motor can withstand the full 600 between brushes.
However, when motors are allowed to get dirty or moist, that
figure drops. Ordinarily, even when there is 600 volts across
the armature leads, that voltage is being counter-acted by
the back-EMF which is being induced in the armature because
of its rotation.
Flashovers happen when there are large swings in applied voltage.
That's why larger cars have potential relays. Let's say you
are cruising in full parallel. There is no grid resistance in
series and the motor is developing heavy back EMF. You go over
a long third rail gap. The current in the motor falls to zero,
and therefore the field strength falls to nearly zero (more or less,
excluding residual magnetism). Very little back-EMF is generated
because there is no field. When the power comes back on, there
is still no grid resistance, and now the full 600 appears across
the motor with no back-EMF to counteract it. The armature has
inductance, so it doesn't want to go from 0 to high current
very quickly. However, that leakage path around the commutator
to the other brush has no inductance...it is purely resistive.
If the leakage is high enough, current starts to flow around
to the other brush, and once it starts it maintains an arc.
This usually destroys not only the commutator, but the armature
windings as well.
The potential relay is designed to drop out very quickly when
the third rail voltage goes off. It opens the line switch and
rewinds the control back to the starting position. When the
power comes back on, the PTR picks up again, allowing the line
switch to pick up. Now there's full starting resistance in the
circuit so there isn't a big inrush current. The control will
advance quickly to the last notch and you are back where you
started from with only a momentary delay.
"That's why larger cars have potential relays."
All NYCT cars have PTRs, not just the larger ones.
When did potential relays start appearing in equipment? Is this a more recent than the 1920's thing, or am I just not looking hard enough ? :)
Looking over the schematic to the PRR MP-54s (AC version), it seems to be clearer as to why you can't reapply power over 30mph - no potential relay. There is an overload relay that drops the pantographs if you overload the thing, but I'm not sure if a flashover will trip it.
Resetting requires pulling the control plug from the cutout hole, plug it into the reset hole, then plug it back into the cut out hole, hit the pantograph down button, then hit the trolley unlock button, wait, and reapply power. Did I mention you need to hold the controller in the "off" position at the same time? The book says this applies to both 7 and 9 switch versions, though it looks as if only the 9 switch one is affected.
Closer to home: Steve, what is the possibility of finding documentation on Westinghouse AB Unit Switch conrol, provided I have the control group model number, the master controller, and the sequencer and reveser model numbers? Oh yeah, and documentation on AMUE brakes.
(Thanks! :)
Philip: The chances of NYCT still having those drawings is
slim. Tell me what you are looking for and I'll see what
we have. I have schematics for WH turret AB control, 214 and
480 ABF as well as generic HL control "handy". I have a
WABCO instruction book on AMUE. Seashore also has a load of
documentation on these topics..check with Gerry O.
What does this mean?
Looking over the schematic to the PRR MP-54s (AC version), it seems to be clearer as to why you
can't reapply power over 30mph - no potential relay.
You mean there's no PTR, or it isn't picked up?
PTRs go way back, although they were called by different names.
In GE's original type M control, there is a "Line Breaker"
contactor which drops out on overload OR loss of third rail
(since this is a hi-v control system). Has the amusing effect
of requiring a manual reset after every gap. On the early WH
AB unit switch groups, there is a "Line Relay" which will open
the line switch on loss of trolley voltage.
Since the M type contrls used a 600 volt trainline, it would make sense why there was no need for a PTR until Lo-V control came along. Cars never gapped out if all you needed was one to be on the rail to make all of them live!
On the HI-V cars the control circuit was fed from the first car but each individual car got its own traction power separately. Lack of a PTR could cause just the type of problem described above!
That stuff is beyond my expertise. It's Jeff's domain.
>Philip: The chances of NYCT still having those drawings is
>slim. Tell me what you are looking for and I'll see what
>we have. I have schematics for WH turret AB control, 214 and
>480 ABF as well as generic HL control "handy". I have a
>WABCO instruction book on AMUE. Seashore also has a load of
>documentation on these topics..check with Gerry O.
I don't know what I'm looking for - yet. I intend to head back up to maine to do an inventory of the car (LIRR #4137), make another donation (Tax deductable and for a good cause!!!) and go over the car more closely I'll try to get some model numbers then. I doubt NYCT has the master controller drawings, as I'm pretty sure that they never used this type of controller (It's like an NJT MU, vertical handle)
>What does this mean?
It means I've got so much free time on my hands in Hartford, I'm starting to dream too much :)
>You mean there's no PTR, or it isn't picked up?
There is none. I guess they figured they could cheat with it given they were overhead powered - there aren't many drop outs and the acepted practice is to kill the power through phase breaks (As I was doing at Seashore when Todd gave me car instruction (pics comming in sept of my day there!) - but I was, mildly at a loss to understand why because they are DC. Flashover would explain it though - was this std practice of trolley lines too?), so the sequencer would have spun back anyway. BTW, since it's 32V battery powered, the control group could care less if there is power for traction - unless they slipped it in someway I haven't figured out yet. Oddly enough, there are wheel slip relays in there, but the manual admits they don't do anything much.
Power off through section insulators was standard practice
for all trolley lines, but primarily to avoid beating up
the section insulators with all that arcing. Trolley cars
have a series choke coil which is in line with the trolley
lead coming off the roof, just after the lightning arrester
take-off. The choke combined with the smaller wiring used
on trolley cars makes flashover from a gap out unlikely.
As my electric railway colleages Dan and Gerry have pointed
out, a good jolt to the motor which causes the brush to bounce
can initiate an arc which leads to flashover. Mechanically worn
motors that have a lot of play in the armature bearings are at risk.
What is 4137, an MP-72? Are you sure Seashore doesn't have
drawings on it? They have a lot of documentation. What do
you want to do with it, make it go?
Wheel slip relays on an MP-54?
>What is 4137, an MP-72? Are you sure Seashore doesn't have drawings
>on it? They have a lot of documentation. What do you want to do with
>it, make it go?
No, it's a 54. I'm CERTAIN of it. They don't know if they have anything on it, besides, I want a set of my own. Yes, I'm am currently looking into the possibility of making it go.
>Wheel slip relays on an MP-54?
Yep. The PRR ones had them. interesting, given the cars are amazingly primative - they don't have any breaker or fuse between the 11kv line and the main transformer, or in the traction circuits. They are VERY basic, yet they had slip relays. Even though the book says they don't even do anything.
If you need any controller handles/plugs let me know.
The paint peeling contains lead. Be careful. Scrape and sweep frequnetly. When you sand, wear a mask!
YOU HAVE HANDLES FOR AN MP-54????????????????
Oh, and there's no controller plug - it's apparently a slip in lever that goes between reset, cutout, and cutin, and can only be removed in cutout. I believe the AMUE brake cutout is on the side. No clue what kind of brake vale it is, the PRR ones used ME-23, this thing looks close.
I'll probbly be heading up there in July to go over it closer and make some sort of decision - the immediate goal would be to check to see what's missing, figure out how to locate it, decide on what the paint scheme would be, ammass a list of people to plug for donations. Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted on this - anyone wants further info, mail me privately - this has gotten WAY off topic. Nor is any of this official yet, as I've yet to see formal approval, partly because I'm not sure where I'll be in 2 years. It's more in the research / light poking of equipment phase right now.
A few small items re: 4137
The original number is 1137 and it is an MP54A1 built as part of the last batch in 1931. These cars discarded the modern appearance of the arch roofed MP54B-C-D for the original design used in 1910. Unlike the original cars, however, these last cars were much beefier and rugged. As with all LIRR cars these matched the current equipment being constructed for the PRR. To my knowledge the car has seen no mechanical attention since arriving at Seashore. The body was the beneficiary of some grant money some years back.
I am slowly getting down the info on flashover but have some questions. Is this a flash problem which destroys the armature like lightning or is it a cancer which slowly burns through the copper windings. Also I get the impression that this happens over 30 MPH. Will I have to worry about this at TMNY where the top speeds are presently 20 MPH? We have 3 Westinghouse and one GE 100 H.P. motors.
You're confusing the fact that I pointed out that the (PRR) MP-54s couldn't reapply power over 30 mph because of flashover.
This was a controller "feature" that AFIK, is limited to these cars.
Motor flashes are usually a problem when the armature speed is high and there is a condition present which will start arcing at a brush holder.
Examples are:
Poor fitting brushes
High mica on the commutator
Poor brush holder insulation
Misaligned brush holder
Armature bearings (radial or end play)
Shorted coils (field or armature)
Reversed field or interpole coils.
Open armature coil
Few of these will cause a flash at low speed since the voltage across the brush holders is low and the current is limited by series and resistance in the circuit. When the motors are at balancing speed in parallel, the voltage across the brush holders approaches the full 600 volts and the hot brush holder is also at that potential to ground. Flashes seldom originate at the low brush holder.
Thanks for the clarification. But you seem to imply that flashover only happens to MUs with DC motors. Can AC motors create conditions that can cause a flashover?
Sure. The MP-54 problem I kept mentioning was with an AC mu car. 25Hz 11kv power.
But it isn't AC traction, i.e. the motors are conventional
DC motors being operated, essentially, as universal motors.
A true AC motor (such as the 3-phase induction motors on the
new tech trains) has no brushes and thus no flashover.
Also, AC has much better arc-breaking properties since the
arc commutes itself 120 (or 50) times a second.
modern AC diesel traction motors do not have a commutator and thus no brushes. -- Much better
Thanks John. It explains why A/C motors don't burn up at extended slow speeds like D/C motors, but believe it or not, some commuter and freight railroads are in no hurry for A/C rolling stock.
Do you know how expensive that equipment is? AC is NOT cheap! Sure it's supposedly cheaper to maintain. But unless you have a large fleet, or your maintainence costs come from a different budget, or are just really high...
It will take a long time to realize those savings. Part of the reason why the TA dropped the R-38 AC test train
Makes a lot of sense to me. If it is a huge investment, then I can see why all railroads didn't adopt the concept right away. Actually, subway MU's don't need the high tractive effort of A/C motors; that may be more suited for a diesel train.
While at NJT, I saw quite a few engineers who still used the old brass controller handles on new ArrowIII cars. I am making an assumption here but if the old controller handle fit a new car, then a new one should fit and old car.
Some guys collect timetables or maps. Some collect model trains. I collect railroad keys and handles. Through the years I've managed to grab a lot from working in so many places. I have every key and handle currently used in the tri-State area today, and every one ever used here in the subway. I only just got the last key to complete the collection two months ago. All those LIRR rule books that NY&A threw away when student engineers failed the rules exam: I grabbed 'em. The make good trading barter.
I would like to come see Sea Shore. I don't own a car though. Maybe Gerry or Todd can give me a ride if I come up to Boston?
Oh yes, I believe a new handle will fit an old controller. The old one (the PROPER one) is still commonly seen on NJT - it's a handle with a knob at the end with a button in it. You have to press the button in order to notch up (but not down, plus, there are NO detents in the drum - it's totally smooth). The newer style is a plastic one that has the button at the end. I've seen them on Septa too. Though current traction stuff is GE, the Westinghouse stuff looks damm close. I'm pretty sure the handles will fit the (old) LIRR cars, as they use a nearly identical controller to the NJT stuff. The difference being the LIRR cars have a cut out lever, VS the "control plug" NJT users - It looks retrofitted on #4137 - did this happen possibly after the PRR cut the LIRR loose?
As for comming up to seashore - let me know when you're gonna be up there - we can all meet up and look at this thing (I might be able to use a hand) I'd give you a lift up, but I highly doubt you're up for 3+ hours on the back of a Harley going 70+mph :)
PS: If you we meet up there, bring that handle and maybe we can see if it fits!
Erik,
We'd be delighed to host you at Seashore. There are many Bostonians who drive up each weekend (and occasionally mid-week), so I'm sure arranging a ride would be easy.
Cool. Harold and I would really like to see TWO R9's MU'ed. We would probably come up to Boston and meet one of you folks. Just say when and where.
I usually drive up leaving Boston at 0700 on Wed returning around 2300. I dispatch the demo line for the day. Most of the operators and conductors I deal with are over 70, makes forsome interesting moments! Sundays I make short visits leaving midday and returning mid evening, dealing with whatever is thrown at me. If you are interested in riding up with me let me know, via e-mail. Your experience with both the TA and freight makes for some very interesting commentary.
If it helps, I have all the books on WE unit switch controllers for R-16 cars.
That's why larger cars have potential relays."
All NYCT cars have PTRs, not just the larger ones.
I know this is SubTalk but when I talk about
technology I'm addressing all forms of electric traction,
including historical. Larger cars means as opposed to trolley
cars with K or HL control. You are right, all subway and
elevated cars that I am aware of, including the 1904 Hi-V cars
and 1903 BU el cars, have some sort of PTR function.
Up at Seashore we have been seeing flashovers frequently lately, and mostly due to failing insulation in brush holders or poor alignment of the brush holders. Another car has had a rewound armature, various brush holder repairs and still flashes. Arcing at the brush seems to start when the armature bounces on its axis. All of this on itty bitty West. 508s (25hp)
It's funny, at BSM we've had three flashovers in 29 years, two on the same car 22 years apart. Inspections (and routine controller lubrications) also check brush contact, wear. More attention is paid to the WH49 and 306 cars. None of the 49's has ever flashed. Only 1 306 (the 2 flash car) and one WH56. One 1432 did partially de-band. That gave us the opportunity to try out our new lifts.
Gerry - two questions:
1)How badly does flashover dammage the motor anyway? Is this a kind of thing that happens once and wrecks it, or does it happen a number of times over a period before the dammage is noticeable??
2)Have you ever looked at LIRR car #4137 up there? I'm asking because I'm seriously thinking about joining the museum in another year or so, and seeing if I could do something to get it functional, and I was wondering if I could get another opionion on it. I've seen it, and it looks mostly complete, but I did not go over it very carefully as I wasn't sure exactly what I was looking for. The cabs are both mostly complete, but man, is there paint flaking EVERYWHERE inside. There were also lots of boxes of stuff inside, but I did not check any as I felt that I didn't want to potentially disturb someone's secret stash of trolley parts. There were a few misc things on the floor which looked as if they may have been off the car though. Many thanks to you guys and especially Todd Glickman for the tour I got up there! :)
A big factor in flashovers is where the flash terminates. In many cases the arc goes to the motor case and takes the circuit breaker, ribbon fuse or power station before any real damage is done. The serious damage happens when there is a large quantity of power available, and the current continues to flow for some time after the arc is established. Most of our problems at Seashore have been instantaneous, but they are still impressive - espceially when you have your head in the trap watching the motor.
Jeff Sisson, an MBTA employee and Public Trustee of STM is the most interested party I know of re: 4137. I will e-mail his home address.
Thank you so much for explaining what traction motor flashover is. You're the only one that has done so.
Sure, no prob.
EMD Recommends notching down to Run 5 when crossing over "Diamonds" where tracks intersect so as not to damage commutator brushes and cause other unpleasentness such as flashover
I never heard of that. I don't doubt you though. Never had flashover happen when I crossed through Queens Interlocking at 45 MPH in run 8, hauling 40 TILCON hopper cars. Man did I love that particular train!
What did you have for power?
Two MP15's and a GP10. We rocked!
Hmmm, Sounds like fun -- 4850 hp (>10hp/ton) with SWITCHERS must be NY&A
Traveled to the PC Expo here in NYC via the LIRR yesterday. On the way saw a dbl decker East of Harold & West of Jamaica (I thought all the new trains terminated at Jamaica). Also saw a green NY & A doing yard work West of Sunnyside yard. Got to Penn early so I visited Tracks 1 thru 9 & got up close & personal with a Amtrak P32 waiting for its' customers.
It was a good day at the Expo for me, got lots of stuff, e.g. 3 T-shirts, 2 Yo Yos, Kite, Lego Blocks, hat (asked a dumb question of a live broadcast ... I thought Acer was out of business ... one of the two on stage was from Acer), 2 mouse pads, 2 key chains, 10 pens, 7 CDs (used to get games or entertaining stuff on disketts/CDs), 3 cookies with company adv. in frosting. Novell was giving away a very nice full size umbrella ... there were a couple of hundred folks in line ... I walked away from that one. A-N-D WCBS 88, where from his lofty pirch Frank Fredapanny (spell ?) was giving reports on Traffic & Weather within the show. Interestingly there were no big vendor shows (stand in line, go inside, sit down & be entertained with laser lights, rock climbing, famous artist, etc.) Many more walk in, sit down, listen to a yada yada & fight for t-shirts. About 2:30 I was done (started at 10).
Pardon the off subject, but know many of us are in the business, so thought you might be interested ????
P.S. If you want a free ticket for next year, e-mail me off line & I'll tell you how.
Mr t__:^)
Two of my team were there yesterday - neither of them the kind that like to fight for the goodies, however (not even a nice umbrella). Worse, both drove - separately - and guess who's getting stuck with the bill (OK, all I have to do is sign the voucher, there's room in my budget, but I did suggest that they should have taken NJT, particularly since one of them lives within sight of the NE Corridor and the other can walk to the Matawan station on the Coast Line).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I gave my boss a cookie with adv in the frosting. And have the habbit of asking if there's anything that he wants me to check out while I'm there. He knows I like to have fun & grab a few goodies, but I also make a point of learning something too, e.g. a lot of digitial camera systems & PCs that look like a flat screen, and some seem to have finally got the bugs out of voice activated systems.
Mass transit to/from ... for me that's part of the fun & if the boss pays for the trip why would you want to drive ? I skimmed through many of the hand outs I picked up ... can't do that while driving !
P.S. Both in/out trains were clean & A/C worked & I didn't have to tip the attendent !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
That's Frank Settipani and/or Fred Fishkin I think you're referring to. Frank works for the CBS network, and Fred WCBS Newsradio-88 ("AM Local" as we call it).
Craig Allen and I did a live weather report from Disney World this morning. (Back on subject) While driving my rental car to the Orlando airport today, I listened in to a radio call-in show on a local Orlando station. The guest was blasting the proposal to establish a light rail system in Orlando, claiming that "no one rides the buses so why will they ride rail?" If I had had my cell phone, I would have called to refute every one of the mis-guided and mis-stated facts the guest gave.
Anyway, it's nice to be back in Boston where mass transit is efficient, affordable, safe, and APPRECIATED. [But of course not as much fun as NYC!]
There was some discussion a few days ago about the dirtyness of LIRR trains (mostly about the outside). Yesterday I picked up a LIRR flyer from my seat about the subject.
"Every weekday ... removed ... 16,000 pounds of coffee cups, candy wrappers, newspapers, etc."
"... between 10 PM & 6 AM 95% of cars receive ... floors are cleaned & mopped ..."
The "Keeping Track" brocure also claims 90% on-time for whole system in May.
Mr t__:^)
Did they hire a famous writer or did they just go down to the local community college and get a prof to assign it for a creative writing class?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, that 90% on time is by the LIRR's definition of on time, which means the train arrived at the terminal.
I think the discussion was more as to the condition of cleanliness on the cars' exterior.
Sorry, Mr. T. I should have read your original post a little more carefully before I responded.
My train comes from the yards in the morning and it is always clean.
You would not believe how many people just leave their bagel wrappers
and coffee cups on the floor when they change at Jamaica or alight at
Flatbush Avenue. It is disgusting. I think the railroad keeps the
cars reasonably clean given the circumstances. Now the air-
conditioning, that is a story in itself.
No question about it, whether it is the LIRR or the NYCT, I don't know too many railroad employees who bring garbage from home just to make the morning commute less pleasant for us all. Let's face it - as a society, we New yorkers are slobs.
What is it about the LIRR an air conditioning anyway? I can't remember a time in my life when they DID have decent A/C!!!
Hold on there Phillip. When I worked in the city, I used to ride the 7:22 train from Ronkonkoma to Penn Station every morning and A/C was never a problem. The only times when the A/C wasn't working was when I was on the diesel train. One of the conductors told me that the cars need refrigerant. On some of them the A/C works though. You just have to find that car.
2-3 hot cars on a 12 car train is not a very good average. Especially since most of these trains are coming out of the yard. Things are so bad, most of the experienced conductors carry tie-wraps to hold the end doors open if the car is hot....
I'm wondering if it's a power problem? Because, I know there are an AWFUL lot of long gaps along the LIRR - and if a running compressor stops, normally, it can't start up again until the pressure balances (at least small home ACs are like this). So, figure it goes out comming into penn from the yard, sits for 10 min - the compressor starts up and is just about cooling again, when, you leave and go through those gaps there. It gets going just in time to get killed by the stuff at Harlod. Or were they actually aware of this when they designed the things and made it so the compressor can start back up after stopping?
OIh yeah, another thing - a Metro-North engineer told me the AC on the New Haven cars is *much* more reliable on the 12.5kv power than the third rail. Go figure.
There are several failure modes for the A/C system on the LIRR MU cars.
Often it is a problem with the MA (but this would usually
cause the car to be dark as well).
In general, though, the A/C systems are maintained about as well as
the rest of the systems on the fleets -- poorly. After all this
time, and all these complaints, I've pretty much come to accept
this as normal. The most I'm hoping for is that they'll order
the M7's with windows that open like on the MNCR equipment.
I guess I'll show my age -- back in the 1960's, those LIRR cars would freeze your @$$es off. You could buy ice cream in the city and it would be just right for eating when you got to Suffolk County.
But, more often than not, there'd be one hot car on a train that was like a mobile sauna without the rocks....
Hey, don't feel bad, people EVERYWHERE are slobs. The Baltimore MTA invested $$$ in vacuum units to clean the **** out of vehicles. For buses and LRV's, just pull up to the unit, pop a window and fire it up. For the buses, it's done as the bus is being refueled. For LRV's, just as you pull in, before putting the car away.
The effect is interesting: EVERYTHING loose gets sucked right out of the vehicle. BTW, you can't be inside while this goes on - you'd be sucked right out with the trash.
Put the car/bus cleaners out of a job, but, that's progress.
"The effect is interesting: EVERYTHING loose gets sucked right out of the vehicle. BTW, you can't be inside while this goes on - you'd be sucked right out with the trash."
I wonder if this could help solve the homeless problem on the E-Line. Just thinking out loud!!!!!!!
Sure would be funny to watch!! Plus, if the NY skells are as wigged out as the ones here, they'll go right out without any injury and wake up several hours later on a barge somewhere out in the Atlantic. We haven't had any in Baltimore sucked up yet. The bus operators are pretty vigilant about making sure there's nobody left on the bus before it's pulled in. That's a usual, since 95% of the pull-ins are made not-in-service. The LRV's go out of service at North Avenue, and the MTA cops usually hassle anybody on a car that they don't know.
Speaking of homeless, we had to have the local constabularly evict one of our locals from the Shop platform. This was accompanied by a visit from Engine 19 to extinguish the fire he had in a stolen trash can. During the visit, the skell got hosed right along with the can. The firefighers, the cops and the motormen all enjoyed this a lot. The skell was charged with trespassing, and packed off to the local Detention Center (aka Jail) for a stay. (And a bath and de-lousing.)
"The effect is interesting: EVERYTHING loose gets sucked right out of the vehicle. BTW, you can't be inside while this goes on - you'd be sucked right out with the trash"
Hate to say it but that is NOT true. Usually an employee IS inside
the vehicle being vacuumed, with an air hose/nozzle, blowing stuff out from behind the seats, etc.
I know, I used to do this when I was in the maintenance department of the agency where I now drive. It was noisy as hell, windy, but the units wouldn't suck up a person.
But (in the case of the skells, at least) it would be nice:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry, guys, but our system is as I described - NOBODY in the vehicle. I've seen it in action - it's really neat to watch. The draft (and the suction) is enough to dislodge anything loose in the vehicle - usually bottles (various), bags, chicken bones & boxes and other assorted edible stuff (despite NO EATING OR DRINKING ordinances) including loose seat cushions on the few buses that have 'em.
Would like to know the date when ferry service between Staten Island and 69 th ST. Brroklyn was terminated.
[ Would like to know the date when ferry service between Staten Island and 69 th ST. Brroklyn was terminated. ]
In 1964, a few days after the Verrazzano bridge opened.
It was exactly 2 days after the VZ opened. November ?, 1964 (I can't remeber the exact date the bridge opened, but I believe it was 11/20/1964)
-Hank
thanks
November 25,1964 was the last day. "The Tides" made the last run.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thank you.
I didn't realize it was "The Tides"; I'm pretty sure I saw that particular ferry servicing between Governors Island and Manhattan up until maybe 5 or 6 years ago.
"The Tides" and "The Narrows" were leased by the City to the Jersey Central RR for their Communipaw Ferry Service. Here again "The Tides" made the last run in the early morning hours of April 30,1967. (I rode the last eastbound crossing). Both vessels were transferred to the US Coast Guard for the Governors Island Ferry in 1970. "The Narrows" was used by the Coast Guard as a spare parts reserve for "The Tides" and never ran in service on that route. Fairly reccent info has her laid up in Boston. I'm not sure about "The Tides" but the other day I saw the "Lt Samuel S Coursen" on the Governors Island run still flying the Coast Guard ensign.
There is a yet unidentified 69 St boat laid up on the Delaware River in Philadelphia near the ex-CNJ "Elizabeth".
Larry,RedbirdR33
Several years ago, while driving north on the NJ Turnpike (north of exit 8A and before exit 11), I saw what looked suspiciously like a scrapped NYC-Staten Island Ferry (orangeish and blue) off to the right in some sort of marshland or tributary). I passed it several times after that, but could never get a long enough look to identify it. Any information out there on this subject?
I recall a story that one of the Ex 69th St - Staten Island ferry boats made its way to Central America (I beleive El Salvador) and served there for many years. Anyone have the details?
-- Ed Sachs
Ed:Of the seven boats on hand at the end two went to Nicaragua.
"E G Diefenbach" became "Fonseca" and "Hamilton" became "Nicoyano."
Larry,RedbirdR33
That would be the former Mary Murray, I believe she is of the Miss New York class. The Miss herself was last known to be serving as a restaurant in Bridgeport, Connecticut.
Of the three boats of the Merrill class, the Cornelius G. Kolff and The Pvt. Joseph F. Merrill are now prisions, moored off of Rikers Island. The Verrazzano was last reported at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, (the photo is from when she was docked at Pier 7 on Staten Island) and may be converted into a floating 'I Love NY' tourist advertisement to be morred initially in Tokyo.
-Hank
That would be the sad, rusting hulk of the once proud Mary Murray.
Funny, that was my 9th-grade Algebra teacher's name...
Wayne
She is the MARY MURRAY, but I don't have any new information on her. She was being used as storage (with a large rolling door installed in her side).
Chip
THE TIDES was purchased by the Army for use on the Whitehall-Governors Island line when the St. George-69th St. line was closed. A second boat was also purchased (I don't recall which one) for parts. Of note is that the Army rebuilt THE TIDES, moving her passenger stairways to opposite sides (remember, the Army had Governors Island before the Coast Guard).
THE TIDES, along with THE GOVERNOR, the PVT. NICHOLAS MINUE, and LT. SAMUEL S. COURSEN were available for sale once the Coast Guard left Governors Island. I saw THE TIDES advertised somewhere on the net.
Electric Ferries also leased many of their boats to the Railroad ferries. I have a picture somewhere of THE TIDES running on the Hudson - with her Electric Ferries name on her side covered.
Chip
That parts boat would be The Narrows, I believe.
-Hank
Is there anything reference herein about the reasons/causes for the IRT's choosing rolling stock which eneded up being narrower than the eventual BRT/BMT/IND cars?
Which brings up another question I have: Why are so many of the original IRT stations built on sharp curves? I know some were later extended and had to be built over curves, but some stations seemed to be built on curves from the begining, like Union Sq. and the now unused southern part of the Brooklyn Bridge station, which require gap fillers. If it wasn't for these curves then perhaps the IRT could be re-built to IND/BMT standards, which would certainly increase capicity. Just curious ...
I think the initial question should be the other way around. Since the IRT was built first to Parisian Metro (or streetcar) standards, what made the BMT decide to build to larger standards? Philadelphia did the same thing, with IRT-sized cars for the MFSE and with BMT-sized cars for the BSS. Boston did the same with the Blue vs.Red line sizes. It probably was because of overcrowding and acceptance by the public that allowed them to spend money to build wider tunnels later on.
I am also guessing that the curved tracks and platforms were built partly to avoid the delays of train reversal, partly to fit the current street patterns that they were following, partly to save money and risk because the thing was brand new. Note that the southern 7th Avenue and northern Lexington Avenue lines are much straighter and better built. It's kind of like the Pulaski Skyway in Newark vs. the second controlled access highway that was built.
Correct. The BRT decided that they did not have to have to do things the same way as the IRT just because the IRT did them first.
The BRT was attracted to both the economies and appeal of building their equipment essentially to mainline railroad, rather than streetcar/elevated train, standards. The BRT unveiled a mockup of the Standard in 1913 to great fanfare.
In so doing, the BRT broke not only with existing practice, but with the equipment profiles of their own elevated lines.
As to the curves, I think that that was also a case of the early subway builders not placing enough value on straight stations as opposed to the economies of building the least expensive route.
Highways are the same way. Highways built now look a lot different from those built 20 or 40 or 60 years ago. Engineering theories and standards change.
True:
But the BMT standard was modeled after the 1911 Cambridge Dorchester car. This car came about because the Boston Elevated and the Boston Transit Commission decided to build a line which could use larger equipment and be independent of its other lines.
Incidentally the el cars from 1901 were 46'6" long, about 4' shorter than similar cars in New York or Chicago. The reason for this was the tight turns in the Tremont Street Subway, which was designed for trolley cars. The Main Line El got its own subway in 1908, but longer cars didn't arrive until 1957.
The conversion of the East Boston Tunnel to high platform in 1924 created yet another car design, with a lower floor and roof line.
Since 1913, Everything NYC was building new was built for the new equipment, including the Lexington Av. and Seventh Av. subways. The 1904 era lines were never rebuilt and the Steinway Tunnels were designed for trolley cars, preserving the IRT dimensions.
The BRT also hoped that a railroad might someday take over subway operation, which included freight service, so the tunnels were designed to accommodate standard railroad cars.
As for stations built on curves, the original Contract One line was in many ways a brand new undertaking, with nothing to fall back upon. Because much of it was built directly beneath the street surface, it naturally followed the topography of whatever street it was built under. Some stations such as Brooklyn Bridge, Union Square, and Times Square were located at transition points where the line moved from one street to another. Broadway sort of meanders its way along the Upper West Side, so naturally the line meanders right along with it. Then there's the Park Ave. straightaway.
There were many lessons learned from the Contract One line, many of which were brought to fruition on the Dual Contracts lines. Straight stations was first and foremost. Crash walls between the express tracks was another. No, the Contract One portions do not have walls, even on the shuttle.
Funny that you should mention this. The early Underground lines in London were built near enough to main line rolling stock sized. The small, cramped tube trains came over 40 years later.
The crazy thing is they are still building small, cramped tube lines.
Simon
Swindon UK
It's probably cheaper. (That's also why WMATA has that tight loading gauge - smaller tunnels [read tubes - most are]).
Yes, the early Underground lines were built by cut-and-cover, and run larger rolling stock to this day. I rode on the District and Piccadilly lines in 1978, and the difference is readily apparent.
Tube tunnelling, while not disrupting street traffic and not being restricted to following a route dictated by streets, is much more expensive. Tunnels were built smaller in order to avoid even greater costs.
Even as late as when the IND was planned, they considered making it to IRT dimensions.
You can blame August Belmont for the IRT being narrower. He did not want any freight trains on "his" railroad so he built it narrower. The BRT wanted capacity went for the wider cars. The IND was built by Hylan- a former transit worker to compete with and eliminate (in his plan) the villans IRT and BMT (Sucessor to the BRT).
It has been commented on subtalk that the newer sections of the Lex (North of Grand Central) are wide enough for BMT/IND cars and could have the platforms shaved. I do not know about Brooklyn IRT clearances
< It has been commented on subtalk that the newer sections of the Lex (North of Grand Central) are wide enough for BMT/IND cars and could have the platforms shaved. I do not know about Brooklyn IRT clearances >
All the Dual Contract Lines were built to BMT standards. More forward looking than planners tend to be sometimes.
It probably has something to do with the BRT/BMT lines being considered a 'suburban' type rail system in its early years. Remember-the outlying areas of Brooklyn back in the first couple of decades of the twentieth century were like the Long Island communities of today. The BMT standard seems to be a cross between a subway car and an early commuter car.
At one time, (and maybe even now) at the point where the southbound local track leaves the 59 ST station on the 4th Ave line in Bklyn, the local track veers left just past the end of the platform to align with the express track, with the express track dipping down to the Sea Beach Line, and the local track continuing to 69 th ST. There used to be what appeared to be the beginnings of a tunnel (maybe 150 feet before it ended) which proceeded straight, as a local track would run out of a local station with side platforms. It made me wonder whether this incomplete "spur tunnel"was intended for a possible link to Staten IslanD. Any thoughts?
Peter Dougherty's "Tracks of the NYC Subway" provides no clue of any third route below 59th Street. Mr t__:^)
I wonder if it connected with the LIRR freight tracks that run to the waterfront. (Don't get me started... I still wish those freight tracks could be converted to a cross-Brooklyn subway line that traversed the borough.)
Yes, they were headings for a line to Staten Island, mapped in the Dual Contracts, but (obviously) never built.
Probably much to the delight of Staten Islanders(at least prior to the VNB opening) and possibly to the dismay of some today.
It's interesting that at both of these junctions (36th and 59th) the diverging route drops below the through route and then exits a portal. The Bay Ridge name suggests that there is high ground near the shore and low lying territory inland. Is 4th av indeed on the higher ground through this area. Does the Bush Terminal/New York Cross Harbor/South Brooklyn tunnel through this area pass under the 4th Av. Subway?
No, at 36st, the diverging route goes ABOVE the mainline, and then comes out between 38st and 39st.
The Bay Ridge line of the LIRR runs in an open cut, and 4th ave bridges this cut, with the subway right below it, also on the bridge. It's sort of an 'underground bridge'
-Hank
There is a ridge at Bay Ridge, part of one that runs diagonally across Brooklyn and Queens (and includes Park Slope and Forest Hills). It's the line where the glaciers stopped their southern advance during the ice age, and continues across Staten Island from the Narrows to Tottenville.
Obviously, once the glacier had visted New York, there was no reason to go any further south.
Sorry, but the terminal moraine that runs the lenght of Long Island doesn't continue through Staten Island. Geologically, SI is part of New Jersey.
But the glacier didn't know that when it stopped it's southward advance. The debris line it left runs across SI from Tottenville to the Narrows, and re-emerges in Bay Ridge for its trip across Brooklyn and Queens. But, yes, SI does have more in common geologically with the Atlantic Highlands than with Atlantic Ave.
The glaciers also created Long Island and Long Island Sound.
The turnouts at 36 St/4 Av from the BMT 4 Avenue Line to the BMT West End Line have a very interesting history. The original construction was a four track turnout into 40 Street to connect to what was then to be known as the New Utrecht Av Line. The connection was built as far as the southeast corner of 39 St and 4 Av. The northbound local track was to connect at grade but the other three tracks passed under the 4 Avenue Line. The trackways are about 70 feet deep and below ground water. They were explored about 40 years ago by ERA members George Horn and Marty Schachne but even using chest waders they could not reach the end of the tunnels.
With the signing of the Dual Contracts it was decided to make the connection via the "Culver Cut" which was then used for Culver and West End trains to reach the waterfront. To do this the original platforms had to be moved further north and the original south mezzanine was closed off although it is still intact and can be reached by a stairway in the tunnel. I have also been told that a kind of glass ceiling tile which permitted light from the street to enter the mezzanine enabled one to see into the mezzanine.
This is the connection that the West End Line uses to this day.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'll go to check it out with any one who cares to.
To Larry,RedbirdR33:
I was friends with Martin Schachne and his wife
for many years. He passed away on Dec. 31, 1996.
If you're interested, e-mail me privately.
I have a (rather crude) .bmp diagram of the
layout south of 36 Street / 4 Avenue that
you're welcome to use, or whatver.
Thanks.
There is another tunnel crossing under 4 Avenue and that was on 62 Street and was used by the Sea Beach Railroad to reach the waterfront.The tunnel remained in use for some time after the Sea Beach Line was connnected into the 4 Avenue Subway but was eventually sealed but is still intact.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[ old Sea Beach tunnel ]
Larry, Do you know for a fact that the interior structure of the tunnel is intact--i.e., not compromised by constrcution of the expressway lead at that point?
I haven't seen the western end of the tunnel portal for years, but if it were still possible to resurrect the tunnel and connect with the Bay Ridge branch, it could simplify the TA's connections to the national rail network, now that Parkville is history.
Yeah, yeah, I know Second Ave. would be built first...
Paul: Although this info is somewhat dated I believe that the tunnel was sealed intact and I can't see the expressway construction compromising it unless they sank a shaft right into the tunnel. The tunnel is just long enough to cross under 4 Avenue but I think if it was re-openned it would have to cross the Sea Beach tracks at grade.
What does seem to remain is part of the ramp from the Sea Beach tracks up to 5 Avenue which was used by the streetcars.
As regards Sea Beach access to the railroad ,couldn't a track simply be made from the NY & A Bay Ridge Branch into the southbound Sea Beach track even if a little dirt had to be dug up. The Bay Ridge Branch still has access to the Brooklyn Waterfront I believe.
I do remember that when the intial air conditioning was done for the IRT Flushing Line cars it was done at unused platforms of the Shea Stadium LIRR Station where a temporary shop had been erected. Even though the Shea Stadium station is separated from the Corona IRT Yard by only a fence there was no track connection made so the cars had to take the grand circle tour to get from one side to the other.
Larry,RedbirdR33
From what I can figure out, the SI-Bay Ridge tunnel was supposed to connect with the 4th Avenue Line at 59th Street. However original plans for the 4th Ave Line called for a 4 track subway all the way out past 95th Street to a terminus in the vicinity of 100th Street. Some advance work on the 4 tracking was done as evidenced by the 2 trackways on the tunnel bridge over the LIRR and the extra wide northbound plats at 69th and 77th Street (temporary construction, no
floor-to ceiling columns.) This would account for the 2 trackways that diverge off the north and southbound local tracks. If the the SI Tunnel was built(my theory), the route would have diverged off the 4th Ave Line south of the tunnel bridge, curved west to pick up Shore Rd Drive/67th Street and then curve southwesterly under Owl's Head Park at Colonial Road.
I personally doubt that the Pennsylvania Railroad which had acquired the LIRR in the early 1900s would have permitted a joint BRT-SIRT tunnel to cross the LIRR yard at 65th Street and 2nd Avenue. Crica 1910 the Pennsy opened up it's North River Tunnel and Penn Station complex and had a de facto monoply on the passenger and commutter trade entering the city from points south or west. All other competing railroads (like the Erie and Jersey Central)had to end in New Jersey. From what I understand the PRR was death on the idea of the B&O possibly offering direct service into Manhattan via the SIRT/BRT.
In any case I wouldn't be too suprised find out someday that the
plans for a 4 track 4th Ave Subway south of 59th St was part of an longer-range plan for a SECOND tunnel into Staten Island near where the Verrezano Bridge is today. Forty blocks and five or so stops along 4th Ave is pretty short for a full service local-express line my guess is that the express tracks would have extended into SI.
What makes the whole subject confusing in my view is that it looks like plans for the 4th Avenue Line were changed several times before, during and after the Dual Contracts were finalized. There was the Triboro plan, the SIRT hopes of a tunnel to Brooklyn, the Dual Contracts planners and gold old Mayor "Red Mike" Hylan all throwing ideas into the mix!! Sort of like an early 20th century version of the various proposals for the 2nd Ave Subway nowadays with all of the
jawboning by the MTA, the City, the State, and the RPA as well.
I noticed the two extra trackways over the bridge years ago and never gave it much thought until now. The second tunnel at the current VNB site is an interesting thought---it could have connected with the SIR near Clifton/Grasmere, for service to South Beach, although I'm not certain when the South Beach spur was built. I've always been curious as to the possible route that a tunnel at 69th St. would have followed once it arrived on my home island. I seem to remember Forest Avenue as being mentioned somewhere. I theorized at one point that a connection from 69th St. would have probably emerged at St. George, run south along Bay St. to Victory Blvd., then turned right up and under Victory to Forest Avenue, then right under Forest Ave out to the west , with possible through-service continuing under Victory Blvd. Any ideas on this question?
When the V-N Bridge was under construction, I remember hearing that the bridge pier on the Staten Island side (on the old military reservation) was being built on the site where the shafts for the Brooklyn subway tunnel had been started.
I guess you could say that Robert Moses did another anti-mass transit thing, but that time retroactively.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Logically, a southward extension from 95th Street would have linked with the South Beach line (which was built in the 1890s) near where the VZ toll plaza is now with a possible extension along where the SIE is now out Grasmere to connect with the Tottenville Mainline near Grasmere.
As for the St George Tunnel, no route to my knowledge was ever defined once it made landfall in SI. Since the neighborhood behind the Ferry Terminal is pretty hilly, I'd imgine the line would be a deep-bore tunnel as far west as the Jersey Street area which is in a valley of sorts and surfaced to link with the N. Shore line between Jersey St and Sung Harbor.
As for a link to the Tottenville and South Beach Lines since the tunnel would be rather deep in St. George and since there would be some space needed to make the transition from an underwater tube to ground level, Bay Street would have probably used as far south to near where the old SI Naval Station is (Stapleton SIRT stop), suraced
and hooked up with the SIRT between Clifton and Stapleton.
From what I know I think the main priority was to hook up the Tottenville/South Beach Lines and the N Shore line via the 59th-St George Tunnel. After that was operational, I'm sure work would have begun on a direct link to Whitehall Street from St George as a second phase scheme which would have included a line along either
Victry and/or Forest Aves. Because both streets cross some of hilliest sections of the boro, subway tunnels would have been built as far wast as Clove Road for Forest Ave and Manor Rd for Victory Blvd
surfaced, and run via an el for the rest of the way out to Mariners Harbor and Travis, respectively. If there was a thought for a tunnel from 95th/4th Ave, it would have been built at a later point after the other two were finished.
If the tunnels were built, the Tottenville Line would probably be
expanded to a four track line with full Local/exp. service. The right of way is fairly wide south of Grasmere and I've noticed room for this future expansion was built in to the right-of-way when grade crossings were eliminated at Great Kills and Grasmere in the 1930s. As for the N. Shore line, I think the PSC would have voted down the idea for thru railroad/subway service and instead the right-of-way would have been reconfigured with separate tracks for rail and subway service.
Is there anything planned to incorporate the SIR into the rest of the NYC subway system within the next 10-15 years?
Only in the fanatsies of transit advocates, but nothing worthy of serious discussion. With the continuing problems on the Manhattan Bridge any connection of the SIRT to the BMT 4th Ave. line would be out of the question.
Highly unlikely. An SI-Bklyn link is pretty far down the MTA list if it exists at all. I think if (and it's a pretty big "if") SI is ever linked up the rest of the region's subway/rail network it will be in the form of an extension of the Hudson-Bergen LRT south via the Bayonne Bridge lower level and/or an LRT line from Eliazbeth, NJ via the Goethals Bridge (which is to be twinned by the PA) and the N. Shore Line to St. George. Otherwise I'm not holding my breath.
BTW, is it me or did the RPA very conveniently leave SI out of it's regional rail proposal that was published a few years ago? Funny how everyone else is included but one little island boro of NYC is somehow missed.
"BTW, is it me or did the RPA very conveniently leave SI out of it's regional rail proposal that was published a few years ago? Funny how everyone else is included but one little island boro of NYC is somehow missed."
Because even the stereotypical madman who thinks he's Napoleon isn't crazy enough to charge a concrete machine gun nest unarmed! (^:
What I mean by that is that even RPA, with its rather grandiose plans, realizes that any serious transit expansion on "Stay Isolated" (Staten Island) would be met with massive NIMBY resistance and would never be built even if full funding was available.
[What I mean by that is that even RPA, with its rather grandiose plans, realizes that any serious transit expansion on "Stay
Isolated" (Staten Island) would be met with massive NIMBY resistance and would never be built even if full funding was available.]
You might be surprised. Several months ago, either here on or nyc.transit, I saw some figures regarding the percentage of Staten Island households without private motor vehicles. I can't remember the specific percentage, but it was much, much higher than I ever would have imagined. And also keep in mind that there have been some significant demographic changes taking place. Many people from other parts of the city, particularly Brooklyn, have been moving to Staten Island, and for the most part they're people who are used to riding mass transit.
Despite all this, the enormous cost of a transit link to Staten Island most likely means that nothing will be built.
[ rail connection to Staten Island ]
Mayor Giuliani put forward the first really serious proposal for a Narrows tunnel probably since Hylan. It's been met by ennui. If it's not started under Giuliani (and it won't be) I can't see it becoming a priority for any new mayor for a while.
I would suggest that a series of circumstances, all put together, could possibly give a rail tunnel (freight, which could also accomodate passenger) some impetus:
1) the Staten Island freight link from New Jersey is succesful, and rail is reextended to St. George for connection to the MTA/SIRTOA;
2) loadings on the Verrazano-Narrows bridge become intolerable, so that additional capacity (especially truck) becomes a priority;
3) pressure for, or construction of, additional highway capacity on each side of the V-N creates problem of crowding and pollution; and
4) NYC has a new mayor who returns to former policies of marginalizing Staten Island, reigniting political pressure for secession.
But the same could be said for recent RPA proposals to extend the Archer Avenue Line to Rosedale via the LIRR or the 2nd Avenue Subway Extension to Co-Op City. The routes of those two lines would traverse some heavily populated residential areas en route. Ditto for the Brooklyn-Queens LRT proposal via the Bay Ridge freight line.
But the same could be said for recent RPA proposals to extend the Archer Avenue Line to Rosedale via the LIRR or the 2nd Avenue Subway Extension to Co-Op City. The routes of those two lines would traverse some heavily populated residential areas en route. Ditto for the Brooklyn-Queens LRT proposal via the Bay Ridge freight line.
This overblown NIMBY excuse is really just a smokescreen for the City or Sate not to sit down and try to plot out needed upgrades to the rail and subway network.
There is no lower level on the Bayonne Bridge. They couldn't add one, either, due to clerances for the shipping channel. The roadway, however, could be expanded outward towards the cables, and rail added. The bridge, in fact, was designed with this in mind.
-Hank
Thanks for the correction, for some reason I thought the Bayonne had a superstructure underneath the roadway deck for a rail line. I remember reading this in a few accounts over the years.
supposedly around 59th st 4th ave Brooklyn there are tunnel bores cemeneted up that were to connct to Statn Island. Leaving Whitehall St on the N/R you'll see tunnel faces for a Staten Island tube.
When I was in Washington DC over the weekend, I rode out to the end of the Orange line at Vienna (among other wanderings of the system made possible by the wonderful $5 all-day pass). As the train went through West Falls Church station, I noticed that there was a center track leading to a tunnel mouth at the west end of the station as well as the outside main tracks that run on the highway median. Is this tunnel just the entrance to a yard (but I didn't see one, and there's a road underpass just west of the station that seems to preclude this) or is it the start of a spur line to Dulles Airport? And, if the latter, is WMATA presently building a Dulles spur or is this just a "starter" put there when the station was built to reduce the expense of hooking up a Dulles spur later on?
The track leads to a yard although I'm not sure of its exact location. I've also heard the middle track is used to turn around trains at rush hour (explaining the Next Train signs on the eastbound platform). The spur to Dulles is a proposal. The line would split off from I-66 at West Falls Church, go through Tysons Corner and then go down the toll road median to the airport.
You can see the yard from the westbound lanes of I66.
Hello again; I just wanted to check if the single-ride ticket is valid on the SIRT; also, will station agents issue a transfer for a bus, given this ticket? Is it to be swiped through, or handed to the agent? And, what is the route code for the tranfer issued at St. George SIRT? P.S. is the SIRT re-tranfer code valid for a fresh 2 hrs?
It most likely is, as long as you can get there within the 2 hours. AFAIK, you've got 2 hours to make all your transfers from your initial swipe, although I've managed to go nearly 3 hours (subway, train, bus) it may have been a bug.
Last I checked, the route code was 's99', but it's been a while.
-Hank
This ticket is NOT given subway to bus or bus to subway transfer privileges and MUST be used within TWO HOURS of purchase or you have a cheap rememberence of your uasing the MYM.
I do not knwo about Staten Island- they hjave different rules and we dont work in Staten island. (They use SIRTOA employees while I work for NYCT. Yes- I have to pay for SIRT rides and they have to pay for subway, NYCT bus, NASTOA Bus. (We do get to ride LOCAL bus service in Staten island for free but must pay for EXPRESS Bus. We also pay for the private line rides (Queens Surface, jamaica, Green, Command, etc.)
SOURCE: Official NYCT training materials.
When the BMT Broadway Line resumes express/ local service in
2001-2003, after the Manhattan Bridge's South Side tracks are open,
which trains will run express and how will they run? Will the N and
Q return to Broadway Express Service?
If the N runs as the Broadway Express and via Manhattan Bridge,
will the N bypass DeKalb Avenue when it runs express on 4th Avenue?
Which hours will the N bypass DeKalb Avenue if via Broadway-4th Ave-
Sea Beach Express?
Will there be a W train? I saw a W sign on trains of R-32s,
R-40s, R-40Ms, R-42s, R-68s and R-68As. If there is a W train, how
will it operate? Where will the W travel to?
James S. Li
Haven't we gone over this often enough? James if you read the archives you'll see these questions have been beaten to death by now.
Can someone please help me out by summarizing prior threads on these topics for inclusion in the faq? e.g.:
Future Service Plans - Manhattan Bridge/Broadway Express/Queens Boulevard
The trains have letters/numbers not currently used. Does this mean that we will have a "x" train someday? Where will it go? (Who knows?)
Thank you, your contribution will be greatly appreciated, whoever you are!
If the Broadway (H tracks) side opens, and the 6th Avenue (A/B tracks) closes, the B, D & Q switch over, and the M , N & R stay the same as now (except for the N possibly switching to the bridge after Prince St. on weekends. The D & Q go to 57th, the B to Astoria, rush hours, Queensboro Plaza middays, and 57th evenings and weekends. This is the way it was 4-26-86 to 12-11-88, and they could switch things around next time, but this does give the basic pattern for the reroute. The 6th Av B& D always go to 34th. Not 2nd Av or W4th anymore (that was only in the first reroutes in the early ‘80's). Since then it has always been 34th.
The big difference will be the 63rd St connection. But they may not use the Broadway connection since both D and Q would have top be extended, and if they extend one, there is nowhere to turn the other. So they may not be affected, and it will just be the new V on 6th Av., replacing the old " S " to 57th or 21st. It might go to 2nd Av., but they might get smart and send it to Church Av., so the F could run express in Bklyn., (the G would also be extended to Church).
I also have been suggesting to the TA for years that the Broadway-West End be relettered " T ", it's 1960-67 marker, to replace the second " B ", and the Broadway-Brighton local " W " to replace " D ". The W is on all signs except the original (1986) R-68 signs. It is programmed in the R-44/46 luminator signs as an extra Broadway service that can go to any Southern div. route and terminal. (Including the Brighton). "T", however, is only on R-32/38 signs, in a white bullet, but it is on the R-44/46 signs as West End.
If the bridge is fully open, they might have the V as mentioned above, and the Q would go to 57th. The N would return to the Bridge and Broadway express, but maybe only part time, and peak direction for Brooklyn, only, as one plan I saw years ago said. (Probably because Queens riders are so used to lower Manhattan service. The N has become sort of fixed to the Montague Tunnel.) But if they are willing to run more service, they would have the W to run local from Astoria to Whitehall. (This was the original intention for the line. It is a diamond on all the rollsigns it is on).
On the other hand, they might be more cheap about it and keep the Q on 6th Av. What they should do is send the Q
exp. In Queens, via Broadway, and the V local in Queens, to 6th Av ., since there is already an exp. To 6th Av, and a local to Broadway. This can be done given the track layout. (The connection will wye into both exp. And local tracks.
If the bridge is fully closed, the Q moves to the tunnel, bumping out the M ; and goes express from Canal to 57th. They will either extend it to Queens, or have the V go to Coney Island. (No express on Culver, though). The Franklin Shuttle would be extended to Brighton Beach (Q to CI), on 8 ½ minute headways. All trains on the Brighton will be local. This, with 2 car trains will be all they can run, because they insisted on the short shuttle platforms and single tracking north of Park Pl.
The X was originally planned as a shuttle from 21st St. to World Trade center, and is so encoded on the R-44/46 signs. Otherwise, it is just an extra letter on the R-32/38 side rollsign and front flipdot signs. The digital signs can have all 26 letters and 10 numbers. The luminators have I, L, O, P, Y and Z with no destinations (J is on there with Nassau St terminals only, and the M with Nassau and Southern Div. Terminals.) The R-32/38 side signs also have P, U, and Y (as well as T and X) in white bullets, with no route.
H was the Rockaway shuttle, until it was shortened, and they decided to use "S", and K was the single letter designation of the old AA . They both are on the luminators with various 8th Av and some 6th Av. Routings, and they are in blue on all rollsigns, except for the R- 110B, which has K in gray (a proposed Canarsie Skip-Stop; don't know why they didn't do this now with the Williamsburg Bridge closed). K was originally the Broadway-Bklyn local.
Forgot to add that if the Bridge is fully closed, the West End is always a shuttle to Pacific or 36th.
As for the extra numbers, I know for a fact that the 8 = the current 6 express;
10 = current 5 Bronx express;
11 = current 7 express
and I think the 12 & 13 are the 2 & 3 with the southern terminals switched. I'm not sure if there's a green 14 and 15. If there is, one of them might be the 4 to Flatbush.
I believe the 8 is the Times Square/Grand Central shuttle.
Couldn't the Q just go on B'way from 57th to Canal and follow its regular route the rest of the way? The D wouldn't run (use the Q for Brooklyn, A for Manhattan, C for Bronx)and you would transfer between the segments at 42nd Street. The B would go up Broadway when the Q didn't operate and to Pacific all other times.
Couldn't they just run the services as follows ONLY when the
6th Avenue side of the Manhattan Bridge is closed, the Broadway side
of the Manhattan Bridge is open, and when the 63rd Street Tunnel
connection is in service.
(B) 6th Avenue-Concourse Local
Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx (rush hours)
145th Street-St. Nicholas Avenue, Manhattan (Weekdays middays)
34th Street-6th Avenue, Manhattan
(Express 34th Street to West 4th Street if extended to West 4th
Street-Washington Square or 2nd Avenue-Houston Street.)
(D) 6th Avenue-Concourse Express
205th Street, Bronx
34th Street-6th Avenue, Manhattan
(All Times. Express 34th Street to West 4th Street if extended to
West 4th Street-Washington Square or 2nd Avenue-Houston Street.)
(E) 8th Avenue Local/ Queens Blvd Express
Jamaica Center-Parsons-Archer, Queens (via 53rd Street)
Chambers Street-World Trade Center, Manhattan
(All Times.)
(F) Queens Blvd-6th Avenue-Culver Local
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens (via 53rd Street)
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times.)
(G) Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Local
Court Square, Queens
Church Avenue, Brooklyn
(All Times.)
(M) Myrtle Avenue-Nassau Street-West End Local via Tunnel
Metropolitan Avenue, Queens
Myrtle Avenue, Brooklyn (Off Hours)
Chambers Street, Manhattan (Weekdays Middays)
Bay Parkway-Bensonhurst, Brooklyn (Rush hours only)
(N) Broadway-Sea Beach Express via Bridge & Tunnel
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(Express 57th Street-7th Avenue to Canal Street via Manhattan Bridge
all times, except 12am-6am, when all N service runs via Montague
Street Tunnel. Skips DeKalb Avenue and express on 4th Avenue during
weekdays 6am-8pm.)
(Q) Queens Blvd-Broadway-Brighton Express via Bridge
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens (via 63rd Street)
Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(Express 179th Street-Jamaica to 21st Street-Queensbridge in Queens,
Express 57th Street to Canal Street in Manhattan, and Express
Prospect Park to Brighton Beach in Brooklyn. Weekdays 6am-9pm.)
(R) Queens Blvd-Broadway-4th Avenue Local via Tunnel
71st-Continental Avenues-Forest Hills, Queens (via 60th Street)
95th Street-4th Avenue/ Fort Hamilton, Brooklyn
(All Times except 12am-6am, when service only runs from 36th Street-
4th Avenue to 95th Street-Fort Hamilton.)
(T) Broadway-West End Express via Bridge
Ditmars Blvd, Astoria, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(Weekdays 6am-9pm, Express in Manhattan and Brooklyn, skipping
DeKalb Avenue.)
(T) Queens Blvd-Broadway-West End Express via Bridge
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens (via 63rd Street)
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All other times, except 12am-6am, when the Q is NOT running. Local
in Brooklyn ONLY 8pm-12am daily and stops at DeKalb Avenue.)
(U) or Broadway-Brighton Local via Tunnel
Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times)
(V) Queens Blvd-6th Avenue-Culver Express
179th Street-Jamaica, Queens (via 63rd Street)
Coney Island, Brooklyn
(All Times, express 179th Street-Jamaica to 21st Street-Queensbridge
in Queens, Express in Manhattan and in Brooklyn from Jay Street to
Church Avenue, and from Church Avenue to Coney Island ONLY in the
peak direction, northbound AM, southbound PM.)
Someone told me that the V was going to be a super-express via Queens
Blvd, 63rd Street and 6th Avenue. So why not make it express through-
out it's run between Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn, and make the F
local in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn? Someone told me that the
Queens Blvd line would need 5 lines to relief the overcrowding on the
E and F trains. They should run the Q express on weekdays 6am-9pm, the
West End Express to Queens Blvd, ONLY when the Q is NOT running, the
E and V as expresses and the F and R as local.
James S. Li
James S. Li
You have 3 Astoria service from 6 AM to 9 PM. Dispatchers nightmare with a 2 pocket terminal with both tracks ending in bumper blocks!
Dear Bill:
They said that if the South side of the Manhattan Bridge is
open, the North side is closed, and the 63rd Street Connector is
opened, Broadway Service will be increased tremendously to relief
overcrowding on the E, F and R trains. They can run 3 services on
the Astoria Line. Someone told me that in the past, they DID run
the B, N and R to/ from Astoria during the rush hours. That was
in 1985-1987, just before the N and R permanently switched their
northern terminals.
James S. Li
No, the B and R ran to Astoria before the switch, and the B and N ran after.
Dear Eric B:
If they extend the Franklin Avenue Shuttle to Brighton Beach,
the Malbone Street wreck, can "repeat" itself like in December 1974,
when a train of R-32s traveling dead slow derailed and hit the tunnel
wall at the same spot where the Malbone Street wreck occurred. But
fortunately, there were no injuries or fatalities. The reason they
installed a switch just north of Prospect Park was that so Franklin
Avenue Shuttle trains can bypass the sharp S curve under Empire Blvd,
where the Malbone Street wreck occurred on November 1st, 1918.
James S. Li
I think that accident had more to do with bad track/subway cars then the sharpnss of the curve. Sharper curves are traversed every day with no problems.
You are right regarding the spot where the accident occurred, however:
1. There is now better signalling in that area.
2. There are very few wooden cars left on the system (4 or 5) and their use is EXTREMELY limited. The cars in use today are much less likely to telescope and be smashed to pieces by hitting that wall.
3. Franklin Av. is no longer a through route from downtown Brooklyn.
4. An overworked official pressed into service on an unfamiliar line during a strike is highly unlikely to happen given today's procedures.
5. The operative words with the 1974 incident are DEAD SLOW. Fatalities don't happen in derailments going dead slow.
Yes an accident has happened in the same place, and can happen again. But a disaster such as the wreck of 1918 is highly unlikely, since the conditions which created it are impossible to duplicate.
Car #3669 suffered a penetration gash to its right side just behind the second door to a depth of about three feet. The roof was also damaged and the frame was bent. Think of what happened to #8884 back on July 14, 1997 and multiply it by two.
Wayne
That sounds pretty gruesome. At least it wasn't hit by a BMT standard.
Wasn't there an extra zig-zag in the approach to the curve
at the time of the Malbone accident because of construction?
< Wasn't there an extra zig-zag in the approach to the curve at the time of the Malbone accident because of construction? >
No, the alignment is the same as today. However, the curve was a new routing--previously trains went straight at that point. You'll notice that the northbound tunnel there is still two tracks wide.
The crossover switch north of Prospect Park was not installed until about 1960, and the reason was to avoid switching moves south of Prospect Park, not the Malbone Street wreck.
The Brighton-Franklin service operated for four decades after Malbone Street without that switch and essentially without incident.
One of the many factors in the Malbone wreck was that the offending curve had been placed in service only days before the wreck. At the time of the wreck, you could still see daylight into Prospect Park station through the two-track tunnel portal that still exists at the site.
Brian Cudahy is to publish his Malbone book before the end of the year. Brian is an excellent reseracher and I expect his book to be as nearlt definitive as you're likely to see.
[One of the many factors in the Malbone wreck was that the offending curve had been placed in service only days before the wreck.]
And the fact that an inexperienced scab motorman was doing 40 MPH with old (even in 1918 those cars were consdiered old) wooden cars in an area that had a speed limit for 6 MPH. Can the r68's even reach 40 MPH? I'm not sure if those old cars were equipped with the trip-cock braking mechanism that almost certainly would prevent a speed that fast to be achieved if a grade-time signal were installed there.
This accident was the Titanic of urban transit, and it lead to many safety requirements which seemed to have prevented similiar incidents. But it could happen again, like the wreck on the #4 at Union Sq. in 1991.
And yet another factor in the Malbone Street wreck was that the train was improperly made up. Five cars trains were supposed to be made up motor-trailer-motor-trailer-motor.
The Malbone Street train was made up motor-trailer-trailer-motor-motor. The three motor cars, including the lead car, were relatively unscathed in the accident, being heavier and having a lower center of gravity than the trailers.
If the third car, 100, had been a motor as it was supposed to be, its weight and stability might have guided the death train through the tunnel with less severe consequences.
Not, mind you, that the train makeup was the critical factor, but was one of a series of screw-ups that make for historical disasters.
Frankly, IMHO, the setup for the Union Square accident was even more unforgivable. If the latter wreck had occurred in the middle of the rush hour, the consequences might have eclipsed even Malbone Street.
On a related subject, I hope to venture over to Prospect Heights/Flatbush section later this summer to photograph the progress of the rebuilding of the Franklin Shuttle Line.
A few weeks back while taking a bus along Flatbush Ave., I noticed much street construction and resulting detours at the intersection of Empire Blvd. and Flatbush. The work seemed to be related to the fortification of the Franklin Shuttle underpass at the point adjacent to Botanic Gardens as the route merges with Prospect Park.
I'll do an appropriate update.
Doug aka BMTman
From what I gathered from news reports, the southbound #4 train was fairly crowded for the hour (12:11am), with people standing throughout the train. I won't argue with your point though. Three fatalities occurred in car #1437 and two in #1440.
Wayne
How did you make those colors for the letters?
What are the difference between A/B and H tracks?
You use HTML. You begin a colorized region by <FONT COLOR="color that you want"> and finish it off with </COLOR>
For 'color that you want':
gold (or FFD720) for Broadway, instead of yellow - you won't be able to see yellow clearly on the white page background -
lightgreen for Crosstown
All the other colors are self-explanatory.
Wayne
g
Please guys if you are going to use HTML markup in your messages PLEASE USE "PREVIEW MESSAGE" to see if it looks right! Then you can post it or go back and fix it.
G crosstown
Anthony, code it like this (substitute < and > for [ and ] below).
This is an example of [font color=red]word[/font] color.
will look like
This is an example of word color.
You can see what your message will look like without posting it by pressing the "Preview Message" button. You can look at the code of any page by using the "View Source" or equivalent command of your browser.
OK?
I have erred, you finish off a colored section with </FONT>
Well, to be honest, no one has brought up the question about the N skipping DeKalb. At one time, the Sea Beach express skipped DeKalb at all times. From about the 60s until it became a fixture in the Montague St. tunnel, the N skipped DeKalb during rush hours only, in both directions.
As for what will happen when and if the bridge is ever fully open (I wouldn't hold my breath), we don't know.
I think the rule is, if the Q goes back to Broadway, the N will bypass Dekalb. If it stays on 6th Av. The N will stop at Dekalb, because that will be the Brighton riders' only easy access to the Broadway express. This is what they did in Fall '90 when the bridge was fully open for a month. I get my clues for upcoming service by both past routings like this, and also plans I've seen or heard of.
Hi all,
We've talked about a lot of things here, some repeatedly. Is anyone willing to volunteer to pick a topic and summarize it for the FAQ? Obviously a lot of things being asked are being answered with rumor and not-definite plans and this site is not trying to be the source of official information but recently we've been flooded with some things that I think need to be addressed:
Future Plans- Manhattan Bridge routing/Broadway Express routes/Queens Boulevard connections (update to existing http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/manhbr.html - Manhattan Bridge page.
What's the deal with the unused letters/numbers on rollsigns. Obviously just because the trains carry a "W" or a "13" doesn't mean there is going to ever be such a train -- a summary of plans would be appreciated.
R142/R143 cars. Update to the existing
. Also plans to retire old cars.
http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/newcars.html - Page about New Cars.
Major never built connections like the Staten Island tunnels (2nd Ave already well covered)
Brief history of the elevated lines predating the subway in Manhattan and Brooklyn
Subway car techie faq - why are some cars slower than others, what's the benefit of 2 or 4 car fixed consists, etc.
FAQ answers will added to the permanent FAQ so that they are not lost in the large amount of SubTalk posts. Any takers? Your contributions will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Dave
I can help you with subway car info.
R110A: This train wa syanked from service in the Spring of 1998 (made cover of NY Post) due to brake problems. A year later in 1999, it was rumored to be in some sort of fire, which sparked the TA to send it to the repair shop, for full repairs. In mid June, it returned to the 239th street yard, and should be available for passenger service on the #2 once again shortly.
R110B: This car is no longer run in three, three-car sets. It's now one six-car set, with the other set used for replacement parts. Throughout the last year, it has been in and out of service for both repairs, and for tests for the R143s. As far as I know, it can only be found on the C line now. Also, the C line has not had the computerized vooces and next stop indicator signs programmed for that route yet, so the conductor does it the old fashioned way.
R142: The first car should have been here for testing already, however the TA was unhappy on how they were built, as well as the derailment at the Bombardier plant in May. It is rumored now that the first train will be here for testing in late October or early November, but it takes at least 6 months for testing, then more trains start arriving, and eventually go into revenue service.....probably Spring of 2000. There have also been some less-likely rumors that the R142's will arrive sooner than that...like this summer...so stay tuned.
R143: As mentioned above, the R110B has been acting as a test train for this model, which it will be similar too. Also, let it be known that Boston's 1800 series of red line cars are similar too, which are built by Bombardier as well. In addition to the 112 car option, a recent news article said that the TA is planning to retire all the R-32s through R44s in the next few years, plus increase the # of subway cars, which currently stands at around 5700. So, look for more cars to be ordered.
The Redbirds: Yes, they run fine, and are great nostalgia trains, but many of them are rotting. Once the R142's arrive, many of them, with the exception of 300 that are still in good shape, will be retired. the 300 remaining ones will go on the #7. Also, the R62's willare rumored to be getting rebuilt soon, and some of them will go on the #7 right away, and more will be added as the remaining 300 redbirds are retired, making the #7 fleet eventually all R62s.
Well, I hope that helps. Most of this info is accurate, but of course there could be a few errors which other subtalkers can pick out. Happy Updating!! :) -Nick
I hope the R-44s go first, and the R-32s last. It will be a sad day indeed for us diehard subway buffs when the railfan window becomes extinct.
You're right about the Redbirds. Corrosion is their worst enemy. It looks as if they'll still be around in plentiful numbers this fall, so I will make a special effort to ride them as much as possible.
Sorry, but I'm lost. Within Trains and Stations, specifically the Farewell to the R30 Fantrip, there appears photo r30-29.jpg, which is accompanied by a description of the scene, but I'm still lost. Does this photo look east or west? I can't shake the thought that the two tracks emanating from the botom/center are either going to/coming from the 4th Avenue 36th ST station, but that doesn't seem to fit either. Can someone help?
These tracks connected to the Culver shuttle which ran from 9th Ave Lower Level to Ditmas Ave on the F.
I know, but I remember there being three tracks from the old 5th Ave El, which turned east and then came down concrete ramps. You could see the ramps descending as you rode from 36 th St. to 9th Ave.
I see only two tracks in r30-29.jpg. Did three 5th Ave tracks merge into two and then become three again before Ninth Ave.? It would help if I knew if the photo faced east or west, and specifically where the photographer was standing.
The photographer there is standing at the 9th Ave. station on the pedestrian overpass at the west end of the platforms facing west. The tracks in the center and far left descend to the lower level of 9th Ave. The 36th St. yard is behind the buildings at far center (sort of under where it says "Copyright 1993").
Thanks for the clarification---I guess my memory is not what it used to be.
On the R-68s on the left side there are two lights labeled "End Doors"
There are two red LED lights. Is this the warning to the operator if the end doors are unlock or ajar? The light are one on top of an other.
The two red LEDs in the cab let us know that all the End Door switches are turned to the LOCK position. The blue lights on the outside of the car let us know which doors are unlocked.
ALL crews ignore them too. When the cars were new, guys weren't used to them and complained that they were confusing the storm door open light with the handbrake applied light. A lot of them put tape over the end door light to help. A lot also unfortunately vandalized the lights. Transit spent a fortune replacing them. They finally got smart a few years later and recessed the lights to protect them. But not before hundreds had been either broken or ripped out. Heck there are still a lot of sh**cans(un-affectionate employee term for R-68 cars) with them un-done. The R-68a came with the mod already done.
Steve probably remembers this. He worked at Concourse Maint. shop back then.
Yes and there is at least one train crew member qorking the D who loves write
"LE S#!T CAN R-68"
I also remember when I did the R-46 GOH program that in the first year, I spent many thousands of dollars replacing stolen LEDs, Lenses and horn buttons from the R-46 consoles. It did not slow down until we caught one conductor with 216 horn buttons in his locker and made an example of him.
What a strange fetish, some people will steal anything.
It's more than a fettish. A train without a functioning horn/whistle can not be used for service. It forces supervision to send trains to the yard for repair and crews (sometimes) have the balance of the time for that trip to themselves. When you are talking about vandalism (sabotage) that runs into the tens of thousands of dollars each year, it's more than a fettish, it's criminal (as more than one employee has found out).
what was his motive, Steve. that guy sounds like a weirdo.
Motives vary with the individual but high on the list are disgruntled employees who are striking out at management by destroying the equipment. Others may just want to have their train ABD so they don't have to go down the road.
Time for management to kick a-- And I'm a UNIONIST but lazy @*%&# like that have no place in a union shop. Only the best who want to get better belong. That's how we'll bury the scab shops SOLIDARITY FOREVER!
(Vandalism to have the train go ABD so they won't have to go down the road).
Many of my relatives worked on the line at the Fisher Body (GM) plant in North Tarrytown in the 1950s, 1960s, and into the 1970s. When the workforce wanted a break, the union would have someone drop a tool in the track that pulled the car along, twisting the metal and stopping the line. While it was fixed, everyone got a couple of hours off.
Of course, productivity was measured by throughput in those days, so management wanted to speed up the line as much as possible, and damn the consequences. Half the time, the bolt they had didn't fit in the hole. The engineers didn't care, because they were all in nice offices in Detroit. The line was speeding along, so if it was too fast or the bolt didn't fit, the workers installed a "dum-dum" -- a bit of silly putty to cover the hole where the bolt should have gone.
Once you start using dum-dums, however, its hard to know when to stop. On Mondays and Fridays, half the workforce was either drunk or hungover, so you got a car full of dum-dums. When one of my relatives ordered a car, they made sure it was built in the middle of the week, with someone following it down the line whispering "don't screw this one up." But they were screwed up anyway.
Meanwhile, there were three huge lots filled with cars that the company figured out were too screwed up to sell. But the army of people trying to fix them wasn't on the line, and didn't count toward productivity. Neither did the army of corporate bureaucrats in Detroit. They did less work, and had more job security, than us civil servants.
Yes, those were the days of "good jobs" and union power. It's been all downhill since. The Japanese came along with total quality control, engineers who wore overalls and walked around the plant, and managers who also walked around the plant. The rest is history. But buy then my relatives had all retired with, by today's standards, huge pensions. And today, the plant is closed.
This reminds me of the origin of the word "sabotage"
(forgive me if this is old hat to y'all)
"sabot" is dutch for wooden shoe.
In the beginning of the industrial revolution, dutch factory workers would resist speed-ups by throwing wooden shoes into the gears. Interesting that a term with such a specific origin would come to have such a general meaning.
There is much more historical context to this; it originates from a particular conflict in the textile mills, I believe. But I don't have all my books with me.
-Damian
I don't want to betray an old freind, but Harold and I both know who wrote that. He's a bit eccentric. Ex; at 40 he still lives with mommy.
Oooooh Erik, I'd really, really love to meet him....
No you don't. His house looks like a bomb exploded in it. The guy rarely bathes and I seriously doubt he's ever had a girlfriend. Looser. If it wasn't for some things he had done for Harold and I years ago, I'd prefer to forget him.
Oh, and his mommy picks his jobs for him.
You have to look at the bright side. If a thief were to break in, he'd look around and say, forget it, someone's already been here. I know some people whose houses look as if they've been ransacked. You have to wade through the living room.
I'm afraid he's right about the R-68s, at least in terms of speed.
YOU SPENT MONEY REPLACING vandalized console knobs and stuff?
Any time cars are vandalized, either by customers or employees, it must be repaired. Usually parts can be ordered from a storeroom but in the case of the R-46 console, many of those parts had not been set up with commodity numbers or ordered. Therefore, I had to order the parts from vendors out of the Jamaica Shop budget. Not one penny came from my own pocket...
Thank you! when vandalism by passengers and employees occur we all pay to repair and to replace what has been damaged. The mindless vandalism I see by fellow employees never ceases to amaze me and passengers, well what is damaged well comes right out of improving services and further cost saving if possible.
on 7/5/1999 at 7am there will be three new cards:
1- EAB Bank
2- ABCNews.com (repeat)
3- Snapple Elements Version "A"
#1 is available at:
Gun Hill---- 2/5 East 180----2/5 233----2/5 174----2/5
238----2/5 219----2/5 East Tremont----2/5 Intervale----2/5
Bronx Park East---2/5 Freeman----2/5 Burke----2/5 241----2
Simpson----2/5 Pelham Pkwy----2/5 Allerton----2/5
Jackson----2/5 Prospect----2/5 138 & 3rd----6
149- Concourse----2/4/5 174----B/D 170----B/D 167----B/D
Tremont----B/D 1`49---6 Hunts Point----6 and All stations after there to and including Pelham bay park on the 6.
#2 is available at:
86----1/2/3/9/4/5/6 79----1/9 77----6 72---1/2/3/9
68----6 66----1/9 51-Lexington---E/F/6 14---L/N/R/4/5/6
Bleecker Broadway-Lafayette---B/D/F/Q/6 8---N/R
Prince---N/R Christopher----1/9 Houston----1/9 Franklin---1/9
#3 is available at:
Grand---B/D/Q Delancey/Essex---F/J/M/Z 2nd Av----F
Astor---6 Spring---6 Canal----1/9 3Av---L 1Av----L 23----F
14 and 6th/7th---1/2/3/3/9/F/L 23----C/E 18----1/9
West 4----A/B/C/D/E/F/Q Spring----C/E
Any questions: e-mail me off the site.
[2- ABCNews.com (repeat)]
Just a hunch, but i'll bet the graphics will be different ? Was Fidel Castro & Nelson Mandella. I'll have to see if I can log onto the TA site to obtain more info.
Thanks again for the post to alert us of these new cards !
Mr t__:^)
Was there a line on the Brooklyn Bridge? I recived some photos and i saw them. I also ask because at the end right before the curve i saw a Rotory Converter and just wanna know.
There was a cable line at one time. Some of the other posters can probably provide you with more information than I have, so I'll leave the details to them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The New York & Brooklyn Bridge R.R. opened in 1883/1884.
It was 6000 feet long and used a moving cable system (similar
to the San Francisco cable cars) to haul cars over the steep
grades. There was a terminal at Park Row and Sands Street.
The terminal tracks did not have a cable. Small steam switchers
were used to bring the trains out of the pockets to where the
cable was on the approaches. I have read that at times when
the cable was out of service the steamers made the entire trip
across the span!
The NY&BB RR was among the heaviest travelled lines. Its cars were
10 feet wide (whereas El cars are 8'9") and had a center door
to facilitate passenger loading.
Originally, the gripman stood on the open platform of the cars.
In 1895, the line converted to electric power. This was not MU.
The lead car was a power car and the other cars were towed.
They used type "L" controllers (as opposed to the R and K common
on street railways) which were known as "coffee grinders". To
get from OFF to full parallel took TWO complete revolutions of
the handle! The controllers remained on the open platform where
the grip used to be.
In 1898, the line, now under BRT rule, adopted the Sprague
Multiple-Unit system of control. Car 100 was one of the first
cars to be retrofitted. Unfortunately it was wrecked in 1918
at Malbone Street.
Also during 1897-1898, the Sands Street end of the line was completely
rebuilt and connections were made to the Myrtle Avenue and
Fulton Street el lines, providing a single-seat ride to Lower
Manhattan and effectively putting out of business a number of
ferry services.
One car from this line survives today. Car 659 at Shore Line
Trolley Museum was originally numbered in the 400 series and
was ordered by BRT in 1901 for Brooklyn Bridge service.
Its center door was sealed in the 1920s when the car was re-assigned.
John
Your statement about electric power in 1895 seems to make more sense than than the "Headlights" article. Don't understand why 20 Pullmans would be needed just to switch the 2 terminals
Oos
Sorry Jeff........took the wrong credit line
paraphrasing the April 1984 issue of Headlights
Cable powered railway opened 9/24/1883. Saddle Tank 0-4-0 engines switched the cars at the terminals. In 1896, 20 control motors were acquired from Pullman for Bridge electrification. The motors were also equipped with a cable grip, and the cable remained the primary means of propulsion across the bridge, but the motors replaced the steam locomotives for switching at the terminals. Electric streetcars began running over the bridge 1/23/1898. "Cable operation of the Bridge shuttle trains continued until 1/24/1898".
The article goes on to state "Through "EL" service was inaugurarated 6/18/1898" The elevateds in downtown Brooklyn were gradually replaced by subway service, and service between Park Row and Bridge St terminated 3/5/1944.
The streetcars were rerouted to the former "EL" tracks on 12/16/1944. Streetcar service on the bridge ended 3/6/1950.
I don't think that there was any Y1K problem with the electricity
What is the model designation of that electric car that is used in work train service? It looks like the Kawasaki trainsets that operate on the #4 line, but this car has a single doorset on each side and no windows. Is it still in work train service?
R-127 and R-134. Both are essentialy the same. The 134's are newer cars that were ordered later.
These cars are the darkhorse of the system. They have more horsepower and better brakes than the passenger cars. Because of this they are limited by rule to 45 MPH. I have heard from pretty reliable sources that they can do 60 flat out easily. They also have an extra air brake compressor to charge the flat cars. There are two air tanks in the car itself to support this. Inside are fans and lockers and a table with benches.
That sounds like the R-127 work motor that was made by Kawaski and indeed is based on the R-62 body style (which they also made).
Since it is used for work crews the nice amenity of air-conditioning is not included in the cars. A throwback to the old days of ceiling fans is used instead.
Doug aka BMTman
A few live in the Corona Yard. You always see them when you walk over
the boardwalk from the LIRR to Shea Stadium.
Thanks Doug. I don't see them very much, but I can't believe they don't have A/C. Guess all the muckety-mucks at 130 Livingston has never done work inside a hot tunnel.
Although I would like to blame them, no. It's legit. There's no room under the carbody for an AC compressor if theres an extra air brake compressor.
I have pictures of EP003 while in use. It is a strange sight. It almost looks to nice to be a work train. SEPTA's work trains on the MFL are just old M-3s with newsprint, black paint, or steel plates over the windows, and they are in really bad shape.
Well, until the R127/134 were ordered, all they used here were retired cars. In fact, the revenue trains, and all the rider cars are also retired passenger cars. I figure, many of the redbirds that are soon to be retired (as in next 2-5 years) will make it into 'yellow' service, but I would expect only the revenue train, which is really the only work train other than the trash train NOT pulled by a locomotive, to retain their functioning A/C. Cors converted to 'rider' cars will likely be stripped of all extraneous equipment, and since they don't have 3rd rail power, retaining the A/C would be a moot point anyway.
-Hank
Are you saying that the R127 is a push/pull car and not self propelled like the R62s?
No. They are MU cars. They can even be run with SMEE cars if neccesary. They haul flat cars dead in between two or more motors.
As many of you know, opto has been in Chicago system wide since November 9,1997, and thanks to weak union leadership, it was neither stopped nor were we offered more money. What have you members of TWU 100 done to curtail or get the operators(motormen) more money on the few lines in New York that were converted to opto. Maybe ATU 308 can take some lessons (at least the ones that weren't paid off by management).
We are in the same boat as you. The only thing sparing us was the physical limitations of the system and the volume of ridership. I've been to Chicago, and spoken to some of the crews. Boy did you guys get screwed!
That's one of the biggest problems with industial unions as opposed to craft unions. On the RR we had a union representng each job classification. Brotherhood of locomotive engineers or UTU, Brotherhood of rwy Signalmen Etc, etc.
Transit agencies, have not gone this way. What worked well 30 years ago has turned into a nightmare.
I don't want to be married to the station agents. Vending machines are comming. The cleaners are under fire with welfare workers. Bus drivers fear privatization and vans. Signal maintainers could care less about my issues.
And motormen already sell us conductors out by picking the OPTO jobs first.
Management wants us gone. Our jobs other than road work is slowly being given piecemeal to other workers. This is only a prelude to their final solution. A single "train worker" title. This would be similar to what you guys already have.
Because the union must work for the common good, we and other titles are being sacrificed. But also because of membership apathy, they're getting away with it.
Mr. Professional, it was a real pleasure to hear from you. You were very articulate in your presentation. I am currently operating the Skokie Swift(yellow line)this pick. Two years ago when I was in New York on vacation I attended that month's meeting of the NY ERA Division, and I met a gentlemam who was a conductor on the NY Subway who spoke very articulate, I'm wondering if that's you. Whether or not it is I would like to start on off line correspondence via our personnal e-mails.
Probably NOT me. Haven't been to an ERA meting in at least 4 or 5 years. But tell you what, you come to NY again and I'll bring you to a union meeting!
Pleased to meet you, the name is Erik. When I visited Chicago it was on business. Assignment for WABCO. It was minus 19 degrees almost the whole time I was there. Feb 96. So I didn't get to see much. But I did make it a point to ride as much as I could. Rode all the blue and red and the yellow. Which was the most interesting. The green was shut down at the time for repairs. Do they still collect fares on the train? I particularly liked the seat facing the window at the end of the car-the ultimate railfan window!
No fares are no longer collected on the trains. We have the Transit Card simmilar to your metro card. Are you employed by NYCTA?
Conductor-in charge of trains. Also construction flagman, for OT. Union shop steward.
Hi Erik, I cannot seem to get your e-mail off sub-talk. Mine is ibilldavis@webtv.net
BrassBallsInc@webtv.net
Yes, that railfan seat was a CTA trademark. Unfortunately, the implementation of OPTO and subsequent roping off of the front end of the first car have rendered it an endangered species. At least the 3200-series cars have windows through the full-width cab so you can see what's ahead. That's more than I can say for the R-44s, R-46s, and R-68s.
Next thing you know passengers will have to open the doors themselves. when i rode the paris metro the train would pull into the station and the door would "unlock". the passengers would have to push a knob to actually open the doors. Let's knock on wood and hope th MTA doesn't get any ideas...
That's actually a common practice in Europe. It cuts wear and tear on doors at little-used stations and for systems that have extensive outside runs (like London) help keep the cars warm/dry in the winter/rainy weather. It also keeps the conductor/driver from having to reopen all the doors when one set is being blocked by a passenger.
Now that you mention it....
Our light rail vehicles in Denver are equipped with pushbuttons at each set of doors. If your set of doors doesn't open, simply push the button once it lights up. I've done it once or twice myself. This will happen at certain stations where it is possible to board from either side, but the operator will choose to open the doors on one side only.
Each LRV has four sets of doors, BTW.
All of the new London Tube stock that I was on this summer, had buttons controlling that door set only, both inside and outside the car. While travelling at a weekend, I noticed that at some of the lesser stops, none of the doors were opened, saving loss of air conditioning. It's a good thing!
San Diego's LRV's operate similarly; train pulls in and you push a button to open a door (inside/outside); otherwise the doors remain closed. This is becoming more common; on SF MUNI's LRV's, all doors open in the METRO subway, but once on the surface, there are buttons/pushbars to actuate the doors not located by the operator. Of course the floor by the doors also drops away forming steps once the vehicle exits the tunnel. In their utltimate wiseness, MUNI decided not to retrofit the BOEINGS or outfit the new BREDA's with lifts, but instead to reconstruct SOME streetside platforms with ramps (some of which require the vehicle to make an additional move and stop to align with the boarding location) and some with electic/hydraulic lifts (outside). This is also true on the PCC line ("F" Line) - of course, there the operator has to unlock a cabinet and get out ramps to lay over the steps to bride the gap to the boarding area - VERY time consuming!
Whenever I take the N along the Embarcadero all the doors open on every car at every station. Does this mean that every car opens if someone pushes the bar by the door, or do they just do things differently on the new extension?
Hi! Hmm, i'm not exactly sure, BUT...if you notice in the subway portions of METRO all doors on the platform side open all the time; with the exception of the door by the driver (front) on the BOEINGS. Also, the push bars and push to open buttons do not work. As soon as the car leaves the subway AND the stairs lower to the street boarding position the situation changes, then the push bars and push to open buttons work, so if the driver doesn't open HIS door, you can still exit or enter (in the proof of payment zones). Along the Embarcadero and King St to CALTRAIN, they all are proof of payment zones AND they are boarding platforms, meaning stairs are raised, not in the street boarding position..there is probably an interlocking device that senses which position the stairs are in and enables/disables the bars/buttons accordingly.
Thought drift ...oops ! So no, on the Embarcadero the operator opens ALL doors on the platform side due to the interlock. Out in the Avenues when the cars are in the street, the bar/button you push opens just that door, not all of then in the car. Also only the new BREDA's have the external push to open button, the BOEINGS don't, so when the car pulls up to a crowded stop and the operators (in a POP Zone)want everyone to board thru all doors, they must open all doors if they are driving a BOEING.
Here in Denver, the operator will open the doors to at least one side at each stop. It depends to some extent on the station itself. In downtown Denver, the trains run by the side of the street and stations are to the right, so the doors open only to the right. The Colfax/Auraria station is like an outside platform station in New York, and again the doors open only to the right. Once you get to the private ROW portion, it's a little different. The three stations along this portion have a center boarding area between the tracks, as well as an outside boarding area by the northbound/downtown-bound track. Heading downtown, the operator will either open the doors on both sides or only to the right; if he does the latter, you can still board from the center boarding area by pushing the green button by your set of doors. Heading southbound, the doors will open only to the left.
The new southwest extension will have five stations. I would guess they will have a center boarding area, but can't say for sure. I have seen the Downtown Littleton station; the boarding area is already in place and is between the trackways. There will also be a boarding area on the outside of the southbound/Mineral Ave.-bound track. Latest update: the northern approach to the flyover/swapover is now finished. The retaining walls facing Santa Fe Drive (US 85) have an image of the Rocky Mountains similar to what our license plates have. The new extension is slated to be up and running next year at this time. I can't wait! I will be on hand on Opening Day if at all possible, camera in hand.
is there any particular reason that wheel flanges are on the inside (other than "that's the way we always did it")?
It may be that it was easier (and cheaper) to construct switches for inside flanged wheels.
It seems that all the contact points would have to be the reverse positioning from where they now exist, almost with closed and open positions also being reversed. I'm having a hard time envisioning if it would even work, but that's not surprising for me.
I think because it's easier to construct a wheel/axle set that's mechanically sound if the flanges are on the inside.
Imagine if the flanges were on the outside for a moment, and assume side-to-side pressure on the axle over time. The only thing you could design to stop the wheels from pulling apart and slipping off the rails would be some bolts or other fasteners, that if they broke, the train would derail.
With the flanges on the inside, you could simply have the axle fashioned so that it has a smaller diameter where the wheels slip on and are attached, that way the side-to-side force acts on the solid axle, not some bolts.
I admit I have no idea how wheels and axles are actually constructed, but from an engineering point of view, it is usually easier to build something that will not collapse, as opposed to something that will not pull apart.
I hope I am making sense.
There was a thread on this subject a couple of months ago. As I recall, the B&O was originally constructed as an outside-flanged road. It quickly proved impractical and the equipment was converted to inside flanges.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Outside flanges would not "steer" the wheelset the way
inside flanges do. There was at least one major operation
that used it for some time, forgot who, someone said
B&O and that sounds vaguely familiar. Best track puzzle:
outside flange railway crossing an inside flange railway.
Baltimore had one of the oddest type: on South Clinton Street (13 line), a crossing of a 5'4 1/2" street railway line with a 25" outside flanged mill raiway. The crossing was visible until Clinton was repaved by the city in the late 80's.
ABCNews.com has had some articles in the last few days about the future of transportation. Today has an article on Mag-Lev. Something Hillary knew nothing about.
Check it out.
Heh.
Frankly, I think Maglev is a dead end technology myself. Consider the following:
1) There are no guideway standards set up yet.
2) Most designs depend on superconductors - a tricky thing to be based on
3) Because of 2, potential energy savings are exagerated.
4) France has demonstrated (again) that steel wheel technology isn't at the end of its development cycle with their 300+mph speed record last year.
5) It's a waste of money that could better be spent on High Speed rail, a technology thats proven, and has been "here, now" for the last 30+ years.
I seriously don't see why politicians in this country get so excited about it. It's not like this country is going to build 100s of miles of it anytime soon, or leapfrog the europeans or Japanese in any way. IMHO, any talk of building maglev now is as premature as discussing building the national highway system would have been at the turn of the century. The technology to make it worth the effort wasn't there (heck, it still really isn't :)
But what about the Berlin-Hamburg maglev train? Perhaps the technology is starting to take hold finally. Fine, there is no guideway standard, but does there need to be? Many transit systems in the US are incompatible with each other, yet operate just fine.
And what about linear induction motor / steel wheel, like the AirTrain? That's half of maglev technology right there. (The part that makes it move, just not the part that makes it "lev".) Does anyone think LIMs are the future of rapid transit propulsion?
NO!
Besides 14th St on the Lex (which I'm including correctly even though I think the staggering is less) there is at least one other station (on the IND I think) where the station platforms are greatly staggered :i.e., being at the end of one platform puts you maybe a couple of hundred feet from the other platform. Can anyone tell me where I was?
-------------------------------me--
---other platform----------------
Or something very similar to this---express station I think.
Forget my attempt at a diagram----it didn't turn our the way I intended.
42nd St. on the 8th Avenue IND. As to why...... another of the eternal mysteries of the IND planners? (Like why is the lower level there at 42nd St., why was the Crosstown line built before the Second Avenue line, why is there an extra tunnel under Prospect Park that saves such a short distance but must have cost $$$ to build, why were so many stations built with such huge redundant mezzanines, etc., etc....)
42nd/8th Ave. was built offset to allow extra-wide platforms at this busy station. If both platforms were parallel then the width of 8th Ave. above would limit the size of the island platforms.
Ya gotta remember that the IND was supposed to a Grand Civil Project,as far as the size of the stations is concerned. The mayor at the time the project was planned (Hylan), was one of those: "i want to leave a monument to my administration" types...
As far as some the routing and station quirks:Who Knows?? 42nd St for example;maybe there was a right-of way problem..or maybe there is an operational factor, as far as the split with the Queens trains going down the level so can connect to 53rd st: this way the TO doesnt canbt accelerate to much before going on the downgrade ( the ones coming up are naturally slowed...). Maybe its a loading factor thing so that the crowds coming from Broadway shows dont all load in the same cars.....
As far as the Crosstown line is concerned..back in the 1930s that whole area of Brooklyn & Queens was much more industrialized than today, so the Crosstown line was need much more than it is today... (The same reason that the od Myrtle line was kept going much longer than most old els....the Navy Yard in Brooklyn was open and transportation was needed..when it closedthe Myrtle el became just another neiborhood el the TA couldnt afford to buy special equiment for....
The extra 42nd St station probably was done so special trains could be run to the Theatre District (???)
[Besides 14th St on the Lex (which I'm including correctly even though I think the staggering is less) there is at least one other station (on the IND I think) where the station platforms are greatly staggered :i.e., being at the end of one platform puts you maybe a couple of hundred feet from the other platform. Can anyone tell me where I was?]
Bleeker Street and Astor Place on the 6 train both have considerably offset platforms.
So does 145th Street and Broadway on the IRT as well as Kingston-Throop Avenues on the Fulton Street IND. Halsey Street on the BMT "L" has a short offset as well.
Anyone know of any others?
Wayne
72nd on the IRT 1/2/3/9==slight!, 145 on the 1
72nd on the IRT 1/2/3/9==slight!, 145 on the 1 and Canal on the A
Don't forget an honorary mention to the Chambers St.-WTC express/local offset. With the walkway connection it's one station, though in this case it's not the uptown/downtown platforms that are out of alignment but the express and end-of-the-line local stops.
I also think Canal on the Eighth Ave. line (even though it's actually on Sixth Ave. there) is offset a little. That's a normal uptown/downtown setup.
They're forgetting Spring on the Lex. It also has space for a 5th track in the middle.
Canal, Spring and Bleeker Sts. on the Lexington local, 34/7th on the IRT, 77th St. on the BMT 4th Ave. local, Kings Highway on the Brighton and every local stop on the Broadway IRT from Times Sq. to 96th St (i think).
One also might consider Nostrand Avenue on the Fulton Street Line to be pretty unique. Very wide Express platform at an express stop with no provision for customers to reverse direction.
There was. There was a ramp on the upper level that allowed one to chnge directions. It was closed in the early 90s at the same time the 6th Ave walkway from 34-42st was closed.
-Hank
That would make at least three stations like that in the system -- the unused Bergen St. express station on the F/G and the 72nd St. stop on the 1/2/3/9.
If you're referring to express stations where you can't transfer from one direction to the other, you can also include 86th/Lex.
20th Avenue on the N Sea Beach line. When the platforms were extended the Manhattan bound side was extended to the south while the Coney Island bound side was extended to the north.
34th St.-8th Ave. has a slight offset between the express island platform and the outside local platforms.
59th St.-Columbus Circle on the IRT has a significant offset, possibly enhanced even more so when the platforms were extended.
In addition to the offset platforms at 42nd St.-8th Ave. (my old "home station", I would speculate the mezzanine extended further south than the downtown platform did. Case in point: the escalator which led to the lower level was not visible from the downtown platform. It started at the extreme southwest corner of the mezzanine, and no doubt crossed the plane of the downtown platform beyond the tunnel entrance.
I remember being very puzzled about the layout at 42nd St. when I started commuting to the city on Saturdays. At first, I had the impression that uptown trains were skipping the station if you observed them from the southern end of the downtown platform. Then, as we would be heading back to 42nd St. to catch our bus home, the southbound platform would come into view, and our A train (no E trains for me!) would keep right on going. Then the uptown platform would finally appear. In a way, it almost seems as if the platforms are two separate stations, as the offset is so extreme.
A few weeks later, about mid to late October of 1967, we were on our way to 42nd St. and our A train was pausing at 34th St. Looking through the railfan window, I glanced at the local track as the train started to move, and suddenly everything made sense about 42nd St. So did the four-track express and local arrangement. So did everything else about the subway. As our train of R-10s barrelled past the southbound platform, I saw the uptown platform straight ahead of us.
State Street, Orange Line, in Boston. *smile*
Yeah, Todd, State Street rivals Chambers/WTC not only greatly offset but on a different level. Other such animals in Boston:
Downtown Crossing nee: Summer/Winter (Orange)
Essex/Chinatown nee: Boylston/Essex (Orange)
Boylston (Green)
Copley (Green)
Suffolk Downs (Blue) [Don't recall if this changed in latest rebuild]
Porter Sq and Harvard on the Red Line are also dual level - as will be the new North Station on the Green Line. Essex/Chinatown is also split level, though there is no connecting passageway
The southbound State (Milk) platform is closer to the northbound Downtown Crossing (Summer) platform than it is to the northbound State platform. It is located directly over the northbound track, and is extended north by a passageway (also over the track) which leads to a stair down to the northbound platform and a direct passage to the eastbound State (nee: Devonshire) platform on the Blue Line. The one level transfer is rarely used. Passengers arriving from the airport and wishing to go south on the Orange Line must either descend to the northbound platform or ascend to the Old State House lobby to cross the Blue Line Tracks and then return to their original level for the two block walk to the southbound platform.
Boylston is also interesting. It is a low platform station and the westbound platform is north of the eastbound platform. (The tracks zigzag between the platforms and then turn west at the south end of the station.
Like some lines in NYC, the Green Line reverses physical direction. Eastbound cars run easterly up to the Tremont St . Subway, then north to North Station, and then west to Lechmere. The Orange Line is oriented North-South and its directions are normal. The Red Line route direction is also North-South but much of the line is oriented East-West. The Blue Line runs East-West but covers more distance in the North-South axis! Fortunately these directions are never used in passenger maps or timetables.
The original Harvard Sq. station was built with the northbound track directly over the southbound platform. It gave you a good headache with the rumble overhead followed by the squeal as the train made a left turn out of the station into the tail track. That ceiling was quite low - a short bit still exists in the tunnel as the train leaves the new station.
Speaking of odd stations, why were both the Pennsylvania Station subway stations on the 7th and 8th Avenue lines built without connecting platforms between the express and local tracks, and a connecting platform between the both uptown and downtown express tracks??
This has been the subject of a lot of posts. Apparently, it was to keep people from transfering from the local to the express, since Penn Station has such a high level of entries and extis at rush hour, and 42nd St is also an express stop on both lines.
Also, doing it that way allowed the lines to be built closer to the street and above the concourse level of Penn Station. A normal express set-up would have put the tracks on the same level as the concourse and given the PRR and LIRR trains below far less clearance to work with.
The same arrangement is in place at Atlantic Av. Brooklyn for the LIRR terminal there, though not fot the connected Pacific St. BMT express station.
Lest any one ask: The reason Pacific was not built with a separate express platform is that there was no free transfer to the LIRR like there is for the iRT. (The free transfer now exists).
Very true, the BMT and IRT were competitors at that point! (It wasn't that long before the BMT had its own station below Atlantic on the Brighton Line though ... local only ...)
Well, not exactly local-only. The BMT's Atlantic Ave. station is part of the two-track Flatbush Ave. extension which links the DeKalb junction with the Brighton line. It was one of the last Dual Contracts BMT links to be finished when it opened on August 1, 1920, allowing the use of BMT standards on the Brighton.
42 St & 8 Ave?
There is also such a thing as a "nearside" station which was used on some rail lines--in these the platforms are arranged so the front of the platform (and the train) in each direction is at the same cross street.
The Jefferson Avenue station on the SIRT was one of these, before the grade cross elimination in the '60s.
Not absolutly sure, but I believe Jeffereson Ave was done in the 30s.
-Hank
My terminology may not be technically correct, but why was a vaulted
crossover used on the southbound 6th Ave line between 49 and 42nd St?
It's obviously faster than a conventional switch, but you lose felxibility.
Do you mean, the way the express and the local switch places just south of the 47-50st Station (southbound)?
If so, it was done that way to keep service from being delayed while switching tracks. The way the 6th Ave line works, the Express tracks can go to 63st or CPW. The local tracks can go to 63st or Queens. There are crossovers that allow switching from the Express to the local between 34th and 42nd streets. This then allows for all possible routings.
-Hank
Thanks---47-50th was correct, not 49th St.
What you're speaking of is known as a flyover. There is a similar flyover north of 59th St. where the northbound express and local tracks trade places.
As to why that 6th Ave. flyover is there, try to envision 47th-50th as a twin-level station built on one level. It's not so easy without a track map, but it makes sense once you realize it couldn't have been built any other way. I believe the FAQ section on this website covers that station quite adequately. Basically, the IND system was designed to minimize delays at converging and diverging routes, of which there are many. While scissor switches could have been installed south of 47-50th, a flyover eliminates the possibility of delays.
Speaking of flyovers, our light rail line in Denver has one on the southwest extension currently under construction. The light rail line trades places with the freight tracks of the ATSF and Rio Grande railroads. The northern approach to the flyover is going up as I write this. I noticed yesterday that utility poles for supporting the overhead catenary on the new extension are now being installed where new track is already in place.
Final call for our fairwell visit on the Newark City Subway 1940s vintage PCCs before they are replaced with brand new LRV.
Boarding will occur a 6 PM Tues. 6/29 at WTC PATH Tracks 4/5.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Peggy Darlington & I will take you on the PATH to Newark & transfer to the PCCs. They'll be one photo op mid-way, then another at the end of the line before we re-board for our return trip.
This EXTRA SECTION features a tour of the PATH system on the way back. We'll make a few stops along the way to Hoboken, then board a train for 33rd Street. Along the way we can get off to see what is unique about each station in Manhattan.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
FARE: Both lines are one dollar, but bring a few extra SBA or paper for re-boarding. Boarding the PCCs is exact fare, but you can buy tickets: a 2 ride PATH at WTC & 2 ride PCC at Newark. Don't use the second for a souvenir.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Directions: At WTC find the B-I-G set of escalators that go down to PATH. Once you find the escalators the rest is easy.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Despite their short timer status, the PCCs are in great shape, so it is a fun ride down memory lane.
BTW, several folks that I talked to about the first trip, 6/4 that Sid of NJ was our guide, didn't know what a PCC was. If you are one of them please join us, you won't regret it.
Mr t__:^)
If anyone does not know what a PCC is yet go to the nycsubway.org/pcc
There is a great page full of info and pictures from all over, including Daves pictures in Newark with the origional Newark liverly.
I have seen signs with the W line are there any other letters not being used other then P or V
I, O, P, T thru Y.
Of course, T is assigned to West End, but not currently used.
Maybe an X train could get a subsidy from Fox Network.
V exists as well - it is being reserved for future 6th Avenue service, and is bright orange.
Wayne
The R-32's contain signs for P, T, U, X, and Y. They are all black letters on a white circle background. I have not seen these designations on any other equipment to date. My guess for the W is for when (if) the Manhattan Bridge fully reopens, this will serve as a rush hour Broadway Local from Astoria to Whitehall St., while the N returns to its intended (express from 57 St. - 7 Ave. to 59 St. - 4 Ave. via the bridge) routing.
That sort of explains why I've only seen the "W" as a diamond sign, never a round bullet. I have seen it on R40 cars in side signs and between cars. I've also seen "V" that way too.
Wayne
I hope you'll forgive me, but I'm just getting back into this after many years. The answer may be obvious to a true transit buff, but why did the tracks west of Hoyt-Schemerhorn just stop at Court Street---was it lack of funds,lack of foresight, or both???
The original plan for the Fulton Street Line was to have an express go into Manhattan and have the local terminate at Court Street. The grand plan was never put into action and the H only ran from Court to Hoyt-Schemerhorn for 10 years before Court was closed.
This was a provision for the IND Second System. There were several proposals that you can find in other sections of this web site. The leading candidate was connection to the IND Second Avenue tracks.
Supposedly, the Court St. stub and WTC stub would have been tied together, and the 2nd Ave. line would have branched off this tunnel. A station at South Ferry was also proposed, AFAIK.
As I said before, I'd get to my Tuesday trek. Needing to kill nearly 5 hours between my job interview and meeting my girlfreind (BTW, I got the job), I decided to take my unlimited MC and go on a little excursion.
I got the Shuttle at GCT, and took it to Times Square, figuring I'd find something to do there. Nope. Walked to 53st and 7th, and took an E train to Queens. Went out to Roosevelt Ave and turned back, thus getting views of both sides of the 63st connector. The ramps appear finished, and it looks like they may begin laying track soon. They have several signal dollys laying about, and the points and frog have been installed leading from the Manhattan-bound express tracks.
At Queens Plaza, I changed for a G to Metropolitan Ave, where I changed for an L to Myrlte Ave. Got an M train of 4 Slant40 to Marcy Ave, where I got a transfer to the B39, and a decent view of the bridge construction. I have to say, I'll never take that bus again, because itr scared the @#$% out of me, staring out the window, looking downwards, and seeing only that tiny guardrail. Anyhow, from my view, they used concrete to make pilars, but they put a steel head on the pillar to support the trackway. All the steelwork is complete, and there are tracks laid about 1/2way up the Brooklyn approach. All the steel on the bridge, except for the main cross beams, have been replaced. The Manhattan approach is also complete, with new steelwork done and tracks almost all the way up the approach.
At Delancy St, I wandered around a bit (BTW, Charles, do you want the special transfers used?) while waiting for the shuttle. Needless to say, I was shocked to see that old entrance/exit in use, I never even knew it was there.
I took the shuttle to Broad St, then back to Canal St, where I walked through the old N station. Tracks have been laid on the transfer platform from the bridge end, and it looks like they've seen a train or two in there. The rails had blocks on the end, as the track ends about 10' short of the connection to B'way.
Got the downtown 6 to catch a view of the old Worth St platform, and tried to stay on the train around the loop (no luck). Then I took the 4 back to GCT, where I met my girlfriend.
End of trip.
-Hank
Did they actally bore the tunnel for the train to connect with the E & F trackage and are the signals being upgraded?
The tunnel was completed in early '98, I believe, but there's still a heck of a lot to be done.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I walked across the bridge this afternoon. Both tracks are in place on the Manhattan approach all the way up to about one rail length from the main span. On the Brooklyn side, it appears that both tracks on in place for the entire length of the approach. Additionally, one track is in place on the main span from what appears to be an expansion joint where the span meets the end of the Brooklyn approach to a point approximately three quarters of the way to the other end of the span and the other track from the expansion joint to a point approximately one quarter of the way across.
So when do you think the MTA will restore Broadway Express service?
When it snows in New York in July.
-Hank
This has been discussed quite extensively. When the south side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge reopen, Broadway express service is supposed to be restored.
Don't laugh - we've gotten snow in Denver during the summer, although it's a very rare occurrence. Last year, it snowed on June 5.
Yeah, but I said New York and July :)
-Hank
I have it on reasonable authority it won't snow in NYC this July. Then again.... that's why we update the forecast every ten minutes around the clock!
And that's Transit and Weather Together.
Speaking of which while out in Pitkin Yard the snow blower was fired up last week. I asked the track department whether Joe Hoffman was predicting snow and was told that Al Roker said so too. y the way Eric and I are targeting a day in early July to meet you and Gerry and watch M.U.d R-9 type cars. CANT WAIT! Eric will contact you.
Speaking of which while out in Pitkin Yard the snow blower was fired up last week. I asked the track department whether Joe Hoffman was predicting snow and was told that Al Roker said so too. By the way Eric and I are targeting a day in early July to meet you and Gerry and watch M.U.d R-9 type cars. CANT WAIT! Eric will contact you.
That's true. You don't have the Rocky Mountains to contend with. I do remember getting snow in Connecticut in May of 1977 while heading back to the UConn campus for finals.
I know, May still isn't July.
Could anyone please tell me if Shore Line will be running rapid transit cars this weekend or only trolleys? The website is somewhat unclear about this. Thanks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I believe one of the earlier posts indicated that the subway cars would be running, but if you really want to go searching ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unclear? Sorry. Trolley, elevated and subway cars all
in operation this weekend, 'specially since the weather
looks cooperative. Hope to see you there Sat or Sun,
and ask for me (Jeff)
Thanks Jeff; a last minute change of plans prevents me from going though.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I came upon this thought sometime: If the Q runs on Queens Boulevard from 63rd Street, there are going to be 2 6th Avenue trains on the same line going different ways to get to Manhattan! What is the point in that? So I thought up something. Maybe the F should go to 168 Street via CPW when the Q operates as a local and have the B be express. When the Q desn't run, have the F go to 179 Street via 63rd Street and the B operate local north of 59th Street. The G would go to 71 Ave and the Q and F would be express when they ran on Queens.
Does any one have any other ideas??
-WMATAGMOH
But the Q will most likely be local in Queens, so this would give lcal riders direct service to 6th Av; not only elimination transfers at express stops, but also providing an alternate tunnel to divert people away from the overcrowded 53rd St. tunnel.
The Q would ease crowding on the F line, especially at Roosevelt Ave where there is a rush by local G and R riders to transfer to the F (or E).
Not to mention a second route to Broadway. 63st will essentially double the capacity for trains crossing the East River from the Queens Line. Currently, the express tracks lead directly into the 53st tunnel, which goes only to 6th and 8th Aves southbound, and the Local leads directly to the Crosstown and the 60st tunnel, which leads only to Broadway and additionally crosses the Astoria line. The 63st tunnel will make a Y junction, and both the express and local tracks will be able to enter it. The 63st tunnel leads to both 6th Ave and B'way. This can do several things:
Stop R trains from using the 60st tunnel, thus limiting delays to Astoria service.
Allow express service in Queens to Serve the B'way line, and local service in Queens to serve the 6th Ave line, which can currently be done only by crossing trains at Queens Plaza, which would, if done, delay service to existing 8th and 6th Aves, and the existing B'way and Crosstown services.
-Hank
I think putting the R in the 63rd St. tunnel create a crossover just past 57th and 7th with the N if and when express service on Broadway is finally restored, so I would guess the R will stay in the 60th St. tunnel, though the Q could replace the G as the other Queens local and run through 63rd St. and then via expess down Broadway.
Or they could just swap the R and N terminals in Queens and put them back to the way it was in the late 60s and 70s.
If anything the 63rd St. line would assure the Queens Blvd. line can continue to run fairly smoothly when/if problems happen in the 60th or 53rd st. tunnels. R and F trains could use it as an alternate way to get into Manhattan. Right now problems in either tunnel caue confusing and complicated re-routings.
IIRC, someone said the 60th street tunnel doesn't run anywhere near capacity, even during rush hours. Is that true? Considering the overcorwding on the line at rush hours makes one wonder why this is true (if it is).
Having waited for either a Queens-bound N or R train along Broadway during the PM rush hour a number of times in the past few years, I'm certain that the 60th Street Tunnel operates far below its peak capacity. I'll bet that the rush hour headways on those two lines would bear me out.
I believe the study refers to people capacity not trains per hour. Most studies indicate that the R train is underutilized at only about 70-75 per cent of theoretical capacity using 3 square feet per person. However, there should be close to the 27 train per hour service level in the 60th street tunnel with the N and R during the rush hour that some experts currently consider the safe practical maximum.
Note that some other "experts" consider 30 trains per hour the maximum service level. And even higher level have been operated at times, but with current service 27 trains per hour appears to be about it when loading considerations are taken into account.
That's amazing. I've ridden the R line during rush hours and it definatley is runing at maximum passanger capicity, unless they feel that the trains must be packed like sardine cans to equate "maximum capicity"
The 53 Street subway tracks do not allow a direct connection from Queens northbound to Central Park West.
That's correct. The Queens branch, like the Wash. Hts. and Concourse branches, feeds into the 6th and 8th Ave. lines which serve midtown Manhattan. Bypassing midtown wasn't contemplated when the IND system was designed.
does anyone lead tours of the boston subway system??
The Boston Street Railway Association has occasional fan trips, such as on a restored PCC over the Green Line. They meet the first Saturday evening of each month, and their recorded info line is 781-433-7015. I'm sure that if you attend one of their meetings, you will find many people who could lead tours on a ad hoc basis.
I've been noticing a general deterioration in the quality of train operation on the Q line. It's probably happening other places, too, but I'm most familiar with the Q, so that's what I'll talk about in this post.
Over the past two days, I've had two rides in which the Train Operator slowed down for GREEN signals, with no slow speed orders in effect. Granted, the two Train Operators in question might be new, but the quality of training leaves much to be desired. I often get a trainee Train Operator, who's running the train while being shown the ropes by the regular Train Operator. The regular T/Os don't seem to know the line! For example, southbound from Seventh Avenue to Prospect Park, there is a series of grade timers. They're signed for 40 mph (and they're really designed to clear at 44 mph), but these people go through at 25 or less! The trainers are W-A-Y too cautious in guiding their trainees through this area. (I understand the need to avoid having the trainee panic and dump the train, but really!)
Today, the Train Operator (operating alone) started coasting (with the train going 35 mph -- he had the cab door open and I saw the speedometer) two signals before the first grade timer, and took a full service brake at the first timer. We went through these 40 mph timers at 14 mph, then crawled into Prospect Park!!!! When we left Prospect Park (after waiting a long time for the signal to clear -- I think he forgot to punch for a lineup) he coasted halfway to Church Avenue, then halfway to Newkirk Avenue. We got to Sheepshead Bay 5 minutes late on a 10-minute headway -- very difficult to do with slant R-40s! Yesterday, the Train Operator I got (different one, two intervals later) brought the train into Sheepshead Bay 7 minutes late. At least today I got to see the D that we should have passed between Church and Newkirk -- leaving Sheepshead Bay as we were arriving. Yesterday, I didn't see it at all.
Another problem isn't completely the Train Operators' fault. Entering Kings Highway southbound, there are two signals: one for the express, and one just to the right of it (signal 621) that's a repeater for the local. The Q Train Operators see the local track repeater signal, which is always either red or yellow, and take a full service brake, then limp into Kings Highway.
I'm pretty sure that the Train Operators who read this board don't pilot their trains like this, but I'd be interested in their comments.
David
You are wittnessing the results of the TA's DRACONIAN disciplinary procedures. Whenver a motorman or a conductor make the slightest mistake they are handed crippling punishment. We are human, but TA desn't care, we have families to feed, but again it's dollars and nothing else that matters to them.
Things that a few years ago were over looked are now dealt with severely. Things that happen like this are routinely ignored on the railroads.
A few months back I was working the Q(love the Brighton exp!) and as union steward, I was called on to represent a motorman who had overrun the southbound platformat Kings Highway. Everyone knows that's a fast station, he wasn't the first and he won't be the last.
They WAN'T to fire him! We(the union)won't let them of course without a fight. But word spreads, so now every one runs slow. It just ain't worth the hassle.
"Everyone knows that's a fast station,"
Erik, this is exactly the point. If everyone knows that this is a fast station, then everyone should know to use appropriate care entering it. On the Queens corridor lines (E,F,G and R) there are several such stations. There is no excuse for an experienced operator to over-run any of those stations.
The T/O in question had two years in title and was still extra. But we're all still human, and station stops are a skill. This particular man wasn't having a good day. Don't we all? So this guy should be fired because he made a minor mistake?
What's so bad about missing the platform? As long as the conductor keeps his doors closed.
The road Motor Instructors expect motormen to "enter a station with authority" Now if they wan't caution, then don't send a conflicting signal with instructions like that.
I'm not excusuing recklesness. Just trying to explain why more and more crews aren't in any particular hurry any more.
Several years ago, when the R-32s had just come back from overhaul there was a very serious incident on the F train. A woman (not too bright) was boarding an F train at Smith/9th St. She boarded first, backwards, pulling a stroller after her. The doors closed on the handle of the stroller and even though there was a gap in the door panels as wide as the stroller, the crew got their indication and the train proceeded. The baby in the stroller rode outside between Smith/9th St. and 4th Ave. (82 feet above the street) while his mother and another customer held onto the handle for dear life. Miraculously, the baby didn't fall, didn't get hit by a signal and didn't get hurt at all. Question
(1) What should have happened to the conductor who did not observe the platform?
(2) What should have happened tot he car inspector who didn't perform the 'S' Wire test (as required) during routine inspection?
This was more than a bad day but these were mistakes. How serious does the mistake have to be before we hold people accountable?
That's apples and oranges. What's the degree of error? The conductor obviously wasn't doing his job and should be fired. But your logic seems to suggest we should fire a motorman who overruns a platform? Let the punishment fit the crime!
I believe in personal responsibility but I also believe people are human and do make mistakes. Let's not confuse irresponsibility with just a slight error.
The conductor should have been fired and the car inspector should have been suspended without pay. In the transportation field, passenger safety should come first.
Smith 9 St. is a curved platform. The conductor cannot see the passengers getting on/off in the last car. Maybe now there are monitors there but definitely not then. The rule was and still is "Conductor must observe for 3 car lengths" I was a conductor at one time. I worked the F many times in my short 14 month tenure. Even after observing 3 car lengths, you still can't see the last car at Smith 9th CI bound.
That's a very good point, i.e. if the Conductor could not be "reasonably" be expected to SEE the stroller hanging out AND he had a door closed indication, then why was it his fault. I think Steve was talking about a pre-op test that the motorman should have done ... would that test have revieled the door problem AND if he reported it would MANAGEMENT have authorized him to use the train.
Well then, now who's fault was it. My point is the TWU & mngt need to smoke out exactly where the fault was in these cases instead of just blaiming it on guy/gail closing the doors. This leads right back into the discussion of the TA's intent to reduce the crew by one more. I certainly have a big problem with that one.
Mr t__:^)
As far as Im concerned I have a problem in blaming the train crew on that one because there is no way in hell a T/O would discover while putting in a train from a yard that the particular door in question would pass indication while partially closed on an obstacle. Especially nowadays where we don't have a conductor assisting us in preinspection of car equipment. The only defects I can discover on my own are slow doors and hung guard lights. Unless I have the luck of closing down the train, walking to the front and discovering a door still opened with the guard light out, these things will not be immediately discovered as they occur. I don't know about the car inspector's duties inspecting the 21-wire but Im sure if the train passed it's inspection and failed later in the month that the C.I. and the TWU could have a good argument.
Chances are UNLESS a car inspector put an object in every door of the 8 car train (64 doors) and tested the door signal, this one wouldn't have been found! Secondly if the conductor couldn't see the doors on the car in question, and he got a door signal, he had no reason to check further. So the unthinkable happened! How to prevent it? A good method might be sensitive edges on the doors connected to a warning bell or buzzer. This would cost money, but might back up the door circuit. The other method is a conductor or door guard for every pair of cars, at which point there is no lack of visibility.
There was a door mod done on all cars, and they are quite sensitive. An AAA battery, screw, rivet, or pencil in a door track will prevent it from closing/locking.
Chances are UNLESS a car inspector put an object in every door leaf of the 8 car train (128 door leaves) and tested the door signal, this one wouldn't have been found! Secondly if the conductor couldn't see the doors on the car in question, and he got a door signal, he had no reason to check further. So the unthinkable happened! How to prevent it? A good method might be sensitive edges on the doors connected to a warning bell or buzzer. This would cost money, but might back up the door circuit. The other method is a conductor or door guard for every pair of cars, at which point there is no lack of visibility.
The car in question was mis-wired during overhaul. The S wire was not broken by this one door operator. Following the SIP during inspection would have discovered the mis-wire. The CI in question did not perform the simple test.
Why didn't anyone onboard where the incident occured pull the emergency brake cord? it amazes me that WHERE the person is being dragged that no one pulls the cord? even with closed circuit monitors on curve platforms everything is not viewed as with Smith 9th st southbound. From the Conductor position at Smith st the last car and first car are barely visible, so if anyone is caught and the train has indication (Doors are closed and locked train can proceed).
If someone or an object is stuck in the door at this point how come no one inside the train sees the emergency cord??
a few years back at 5th ave on the #7 a baby carraige was dragged, that train always has people riding the last car why did no one pull the cord then either?
The No.7 Line had lots of problems back then with Drags. Vernon BLVD was a hot spot back then.
Curious, how many cars did he put out of the station? A door or
two outside, OK, it happens, but a few cars, well, that pretty
much says "not in control of the train".
Btw "The road Motor Instructors expect motormen to "enter a station with authority" .....ha! Authority? Maybe the Motor
Instructors were brought up that way, but the TrainService
Supervisors won't say that. The days of hitting the station
portal at 50, pulling back 60 pounds and having enough room
to blow down to a smooth stop are GONE.
Half a car. The 10 car marker is right at the end of the platform.
Yes the days of grabbing 60 and fanning it down are gone. I just heard a school car TSS tell his class that very thing;"enter with authority"
So, now they enter and grab full service then adjust to get it where they want.
You mean they don't fire people for going too slow?
NO but if you think your a hot shot and hit the timer then your in trouble. You can't really get in trouble for going to slow. They may try to charge you with tieing up the road. Ofcause you can always say your following the posted speed signs which is mostly 25 to 35MPH.
Operating slowly is one thing operating safely is another. Speeds posted are supposedly the maximum allowable speed for the area. Speeds posted for grade timer areas are a rough estimate and not precise.
Hell no. The shortest path to a long carreer is to go slow. You can avoid accidents and discipline that way.
Hell no. The shortest path to a long carreer is to go slow. You can avoid accidents and discipline that way.
Plenty of crews get into to trouble for rushing, I have never heard of someone getting into trouble for being slow. Within reason of course.
Hey, they can't help it with a train of R-68s.
Backing off of the Timers is a good thing because it keeps you out of trouble. I myself back off on timers for one reason. I DO NOT TRUST THEM. For an Ex. on the No.1 Line South of 157 Street on the Downtown theres a timer set for 35 MPH but Coast it intil it clears at about 15 MPH when the light goes green then I pick it up. If you want to talk about bad train operation what about those Train Operators that go fast Leaving Times Square on a Downtown No.2 or No.3 train over a switch with the speed limit set to 10 MPH. Some go as fast as 25 MPH.
i guess once the switch finally gives out and puts a train on the ground not to mention endangering riders lives something will be done.
I can understand the paranoia (Eric's been good about explaining it to us), but there's one thing about timers (other than one-shots): if you see one turn green, you're moving too slowly! They're supposed to turn yellow in front of you, not green.
I'm not familiar with the timer you talked about...is it a one-shot? The ones I mentioned on the Brighton Line are grouped together.
You've got a point about the switch situation, though...where there's a speed sign that's not enforced by a timer, Train Operators tend to go through the area at a speed higher than what's posted.
David
[Backing off of the Timers is a good thing because it keeps you out of trouble. I myself back off on timers for one reason. I DO NOT TRUST THEM. For an Ex. on the No.1 Line South of 157 Street on the Downtown theres a timer set for 35 MPH but Coast it intil it clears at about 15 MPH when the light goes green then I pick it up. If you want to talk about bad train operation what about those Train Operators that go fast Leaving Times Square on a Downtown No.2 or No.3 train over a switch with the speed limit set to 10 MPH. Some go as fast as 25 MPH.]
lets see signal turns yellow in front of you the next signal will be
A-red
B-greeen
C- rainbow colored
D-labor relation
e-all the above
if you are passing and yellow signal the next color you encounter could either be another yellow or RED whether it be in a time control area or flat out road.
better yet just have the train under control in case the next signal never clears.
David, maybe I misunderstand what you are saying, but:
about timers (other than one-shots): if you see one turn green, you're moving too slowly! They're
supposed to turn yellow in front of you, not green
GT (aka "S") timers are supposed to break green right in front
of you, i.e. the next signal ahead clears from R to Y/S as you
pass into the section. The first-shot time control track
circuit that controls clearing from R to Y/S starts at the signal
two signals back from the one in question. If you miss that, you
get a second-shot timing circuit in the block preceding the
signal in question. Having two-shot timers break from red to yellow
in front of you is the maximum possible speed. Ideal operation
is for a Y/S to G break right in front of you, and anything less
(staring at a green for a while) is sub-optimal speed.
I think in general T/Os are afraid of managerial scrutiny over
any mistakes. There is no incentive to run hot. It doesn't
result in more pay, in fact, it can detract from O/T, and it
incurs the risk of being charged with some offense.
No, Jeff, you understood me correctly, and I stand by my statement.
David
[David, maybe I misunderstand what you are saying, but:
about timers (other than one-shots): if you see one turn green, you're moving too slowly! They're
supposed to turn yellow in front of you, not green
GT (aka "S") timers are supposed to break green right in front
of you, i.e. the next signal ahead clears from R to Y/S as you
pass into the section. The first-shot time control track
circuit that controls clearing from R to Y/S starts at the signal
two signals back from the one in question. If you miss that, you
get a second-shot timing circuit in the block preceding the
signal in question. Having two-shot timers break from red to yellow
in front of you is the maximum possible speed. Ideal operation
is for a Y/S to G break right in front of you, and anything less
(staring at a green for a while) is sub-optimal speed.]
I have a question are you a train operator, train service supervisor, or signal maintainer? you seem pretty versed on train operation from 7 av to Prospect Park on the D/Q lines? true some timers are rather fast and others such as on the Pelham Line are slower than molasses in winter.. posted speeds are the maximum allowable speed and i could care less what speed is posted for timers but isn't SAFE operation better than a train operator misjudging and causing a SIGNAL OVERRUN? I too tend to try challengiing grade timers but we MUST HAVE TRAIN UNDER FULL CONTROL AT ALL TIMES and some equipment brake better than others.. so the next time a train goes BIE a likely cause COULD BE GRADE TIMER not clearing for train operating at the posted SPEED...
No, I'm none of the below. Let's just say I work for the place in a capacity where I'd know what I was talking about. I fully realize that Train Operators must have their trains under full control at all times. However, that doesn't excuse going through timers at less than half the posted speed. R-40s (which provide most Q service) and R-42s (which are temporarily supplementing the R-40s on occasion while the williamsburg Bridge is out) have good brakes, especially the R-40s. I've been on R-68s on the D that went through the area much faster than the Q trains do...it's a matter of training and experience, not mechanics.
A few weeks ago, I was riding a train being operated by a trainee. When we got to Seventh Avenue, the Train Operator ordered the trainee out of the cab so he could show the trainee something. The Train Operator then proceeded to operate to Prospect Park, going through the timers at 32 MPH and explaining what he was doing as he did it. This is still well under the posted speed (and even lower than the designed clearing speed, but there's no way a Train Operator would know that), but well above the speed at which most Train Operators on the Q go through the area. So, it can be done, and with complete safety!
David
[I have a question are you a train operator, train service supervisor, or signal maintainer? you seem pretty versed on train operation from 7 av to Prospect Park on the D/Q lines? true some timers are rather fast and others such as on the Pelham Line are slower than molasses in winter.. posted speeds are the maximum allowable speed and i could care less what speed is posted for timers but isn't SAFE operation better than a train operator misjudging and causing a SIGNAL OVERRUN? I too tend to try challengiing grade timers but we MUST HAVE TRAIN UNDER FULL CONTROL AT ALL TIMES and some equipment brake better than others.. so the next time a train goes BIE a likely cause COULD BE GRADE TIMER not clearing for train operating at the posted SPEED...]
When i was in the B division i operated D and Q service often I think the first GT is 40 mph and the next is 35? i'd wrap it aroound leaving 7 av s/b get the train to around 36-38 mph and coast past the first set of timers to let the next clear. If i'm correct the 30 or 35 GT is a home signal, now who really wants to play with fire? once these cleared i'd wrap it again and fly into Prospect Park and stop and punch for my line up (loc or exp).
I agree that going thru timer control area at half the posted speed is nonsense but who would we complain to regarding timers not clearing at posted speeds? after we've hit the red signal and end up at labor relation.... I believe that Line Superintendent bonuses depend on their lines ontime record ..
lets just say that managements tactics toward t/os's running red signals, splitting switches and wrong routes have made plenty t/o's upset to say the least. If you feel that people aren't being properly trained look at Training and Qualifications adgenda for Train Operators 70 days for A division and 100 days for B division is that sufficient. I heard the C line Superintendent a few years back complained of all the wrong route and signal overruns by new t/o's but did he ever doing anything except have these people written up?
A safe railroad begins with properly trained people the "Microwave training" is for the birds.
Thanks. You just made my point.
David
[When i was in the B division i operated D and Q service often I think the first GT is 40 mph and the next is 35? i'd wrap it aroound leaving 7 av s/b get the train to around 36-38 mph and coast past the first set of timers to let the next clear. If i'm correct the 30 or 35 GT is a home signal, now who really wants to play with fire? once these cleared i'd wrap it again and fly into Prospect Park and stop and punch for my line up (loc or exp).
I agree that going thru timer control area at half the posted speed is nonsense but who would we complain to regarding timers not clearing at posted speeds? after we've hit the red signal and end up at labor relation.... I believe that Line Superintendent bonuses depend on their lines ontime record ..
lets just say that managements tactics toward t/os's running red signals, splitting switches and wrong routes have made plenty t/o's upset to say the least. If you feel that people aren't being properly trained look at Training and Qualifications adgenda for Train Operators 70 days for A division and 100 days for B division is that sufficient. I heard the C line Superintendent a few years back complained of all the wrong route and signal overruns by new t/o's but did he ever doing anything except have these people written up?
A safe railroad begins with properly trained people the "Microwave training" is for the birds.]
Keep up the good work Anthony.Any train operator who has worked the Q knows that there is no need to speed. There is enough time built into the running time that if you do speed you will be sitting outside of BBc for 5 min. I know a station agent by the same name any relation.
its probably me ! i got promoted in February and working in the A division now. A and B division seem to be two different railroads in every respect i find, since I worked in the B as a Conductor and T/O before.
Good response Anthony. Let me clarify too. Having your train under control does not mean having your hands on the master controller and brake valve handle.
It means having the ability to stop where you want to, and at speed prudent for the territory. Unlike a car, a train requires observing and judging your speed and because the equipment takes time to react anticipating what you are going to do in advance. Motormen and especially engineers cannot simply slap on the brake. So very few guys cruise while staring out the vision glass.
Imagine travelling down the highway in your car. As you approach the exit ramp, you must take your foot off the gas, and think " ok I'm going to begin braking 100 feet from that sign. Then I'll release the brake and coast through the turn at the bottom of the ramp."
No, you don't drive like that. You just do it. While chatting on the cell. Or listening to the radio at some unbelievable decibel.
You can't while operating a train. It must be with total concentration. Woe be the man that doesn't. Labor relations sees those guys all the time.
Most equipment i've operated respond well others well you just have to adjust your operation. a conversation about poor braking trains came up and i think the dispatchers response was to brake sooner or just reduce your speed.
common sense has taught me that if the train isn't responding the way you'd like it to when making station stops is to adjust your speed entering the station and start braking sooner if needed. lapping the brakes in small increments will work better than fanning the brakes resulting in a more accurate stop and more comfortable to the passengers.
Entering a station with authority give the train what it needs for the dynamics to brake your train. If you've got a red home signal or automatic at the end of the station well you've got to use your head!
I alway come into a station with A red Signal Extra slow. Then when I make the stop and ready to go it turns Green.
I agree whole-heartedly. Think about your personal vehicles and how different they each feel. I have three motorcycles and none accellerate or brake alike (in fact one is a 4 speed, one a 5 speed and one a 6 speed). If I didn't adjust my operation accordingly, I'd likely be remembered by a bunch of flowers on the Northern State Pkwy.
Luck you Steve. My superintendant might dump a bunch of weeds on mine :0)
I have a question are you a train operator, train service supervisor, or signal maintainer? you seem pretty versed on train operation from 7 av to Prospect Park on the D/Q lines? true some timers are rather fast and others,however some grade timers on the Pelham Line are slower than molasses in winter.. posted speeds are the maximum allowable speed and i could care less what speed is posted for timers but isn't SAFE operation better than a train operator misjudging and causing a SIGNAL OVERRUN? I too tend to try challengiing grade timers but we MUST HAVE TRAIN UNDER FULL CONTROL AT ALL TIMES and some equipment brake better than others.. so the next time a train goes BIE a likely cause COULD BE GRADE TIMER not clearing for train operating at the posted SPEED...
Back on June 4 I went through the area in question. #4163 was the lead motor. The T/O left 7 Avenue and got her up to about 40 (he briefly touched 42). When he reached GT #A3-409, THEN he made a brake application. We dusted the "D" leaving Newkirk. We were steady 40-44 between Newkirk and Kings Highway. At Kings Highway, he hit the brakes AT THE BOARDS and brought the R40 to a perfect stop, slanted nose right at the 10-car marker. A nice job. I guess it depends on which T/O you get. I would hesitate to say that everybody on the "Q" is slowing down.
Wayne
Out of experance in my 11 Years of train Operation I seen many of Train Operators who changed timers and stations ending up at Labor Relations. In the old days you could of do stuff like that. A TSS told me 85% of the trains on the road do not meet TA braking standerds. This person who told me this has been in transit a very long time and is very respected. So that a great reason to be careful.
Thats 65% OF trains that don't meet TA standerds. Not 85%
65% or 85%? That's a completely irresponsible charge to make. I would like to know who this (mysterious) person is so he can tell me where he gets his data. I've said this before but it bears repeating. Several times weekly, System Safety randomly takes a train from service, without prior notice, and performs extensive brake testing. The Jamaica fleet represents 18% of the entire NYCT fleet. No Jamaica train has ever failed one of these tests. Therefore (by my primative math) 78% of every other fleet would have to fail this test in order to get that ridiculous number. I think you should reconsider the motives of your source and/or the quality of his data.
Another point to add to Steve's: Although the air brakes set up during these manouvers through grade timers, the work is being done by the dynamics. There is no way (unless there are multiple b/o cars in the train) that you won't get almost instantaneous results from the brake. Yes the air brakes on some cars are dumbed down, but the only time you invoke them is on the final stop, or in emergency (missed that grade timer.) The operator should know the performance aspects of his train within one or two stops of leaving the yard. If a grade timer clears to green ahead of a train, the operator is going exceptionally slow. The constant on and off the brakes to get by the signals on green is tough on the equipment (and on the passengers). A steady coast or a steady light application, working the red timers gives a much better ride and is easier on the equipment, and you can be on the power for the coming upgrade as soon as that last red flashes!
Thank you! You said it better than I ever could, Gerald.
David
[Another point to add to Steve's: Although the air brakes set up during these manouvers through grade timers, the work is being done by the dynamics. There is no way (unless there are multiple b/o cars in the train) that you won't get almost instantaneous results from the brake. Yes the air brakes on some cars are dumbed down, but the only time you invoke them is on the final stop, or in emergency (missed that grade timer.) The operator should know the performance aspects of his train within one or two stops of leaving the yard. If a grade timer clears to green ahead of a train, the operator is going exceptionally slow. The constant on and off the brakes to get by the signals on green is tough on the equipment (and on the passengers). A steady coast or a steady light application, working the red timers gives a much better ride and is easier on the equipment, and you can be on the power for the coming upgrade as soon as that last red flashes!]
This is how train operators are taught: In 2 shot grade time territory, that yellow + S is to turn green upon reaching that signal so that the next one will turn yellow+S. If this doesn't happen, it is entirely possible that next red will not clear until you get right on top of it, so you better go slower!
Well, if the standards are X, and the train only makes Y, then system safety just makes the standard Z.
What a crock! Theres NO OUTSIDE unbiased monitoring of the system. THAT"S what we need. Then a lot of this crap would stop. Reliability and cost are nice. But I think those are on the minds at 370 Jay. Safety, only as far as how much it can reduce costs. And no more.
On the contrary, Erik. PTSB monitors the results of the testing.
PTSB = NO TEETH. If they did, then a lot of things would be different.
I' m with Steve on that one. One thing I can say about the Jamaica fleet of R32 and R46: I had only one train all pick (since 5/3) with poor brakes. Now the R40M and R42's from ENY (before Willy B reconstruction) is another matter. Now those cars are bad. But then again are we talking about normal (service) braking of emergency braking here?
Steve must be doing a Great Job at Jamaica. Too bad 240,239, can't clean up there act those brakes are horrible. On the No.1/9 Line those R62A more so on the Transvse Links brakes stink. On the No.2 Line those brakes and power really stick. Ok I know there old cars but the No.5 Line cars are older and run better. Actully When the R33'S were on the No.5 They ran great then when they went to the No.2 Line they got worst and the R26,28,29 went to the 5 Line and now run better.The problem 239 Yard must not have enouth time to take care of them the No.2 Line while E 180 Yard is doing a great job. But to be fare the No.2 Line runs 24/7 when the Redbird on the No.5 get a rest from 11:30PM to 5:00AM
Good point Bill. All the modfications made to the braking systems were for the most part done to the service rates. Emergency is supposedly still within design limits.
After the unfortunate incident on the Williamsburg Bridge, the Emergency Variable Load valves on all cars were re-calibrated to bring them back within the required performance envelope.
The T/O who was driving the "Q" I was on did not appear to charge the timer A3-409 - he had full green up to about the signal prior to the timer. Then he let up on the throttle. When he actually reached A3-409 he was probably doing about 30, maybe a little less. He only let it all hang out under full green. He had full green out on the Newkirk-Kings Highway stretch too, at least that's the way it looked. The signals there are kinda hard to read because they're short. The train appeared to be fully under control, just a nice quick ride down the Brighton.
Now back on Nov. 7, on a ride through the 14th St. tunnel -THAT guy driving #4399 was definitely charging the timers. We were lucky we weren't tripped.
Wayne
Another quick point. Q timetables, like most have TOOOOOOOOOO much time in them. If a crew is slow, they don't have to sit out side the terminal at Brighton beach waiting for a northbound to leave so they can get in. If they run normal, most likely they will sit two minutes. If it's a really fast crew, Iv'e sat 5 mnutes or so. More reasons to just take it easy.
When are you all going to realize: TA does not want a fast system!
Dave you make me laugh if you could do any better take the next open competive exam and work your way up to train operator. I do not believe that you work for the T.A. in any title.
I'm not here to get into a food fight with Rookie T.O. or anyone else. I'm friends with many people on this board. They know who I am and where I work, and can vouch for me.
I'll be honest about it. My hand/eye coordination is, to put it bluntly, awful. I know what to do but probably am not capable of doing it. However, I know that I wouldn't be good at it and so won't waste my time or others' by trying. However, when someone is capable of doing the job, he or she should be taught to do it right and should then be able to do it right on his or her own. That isn't happening.
David
[Dave you make me laugh if you could do any better take the next open competive exam and work your way up to train operator. I do not believe that you work for the T.A. in any title.]
If this is the David I know for years, then I too can vouch for the guy. He does work for the TA.
Mail me Dave.
I know who "David" is and he is an experienced TA employee.
I think we're having a very healthy discussion here ... maybe something that sould happen somehow "officially", but anyhow it will loose its value if we let it turn into rock throwing. For non-subway opns folks like me, it interesting reading, but for you TA guys & gails it can be much more ! So please keep it civil.
Mr t__:^)
Hi All,
Just got the new computer hooked up at home and so the first thing I'm doing is visiting my favorite web site in the world.
Spent Wednesday touring the subway system. Got to talk to the TO (who happened to be a woman) on a #5 Redbird all the way from Brooklyn Bridge to E 180. She showed me the different notch positions in the controller. Quite a fun ride.
Later I rode a slant R40 Q express from Brighton Beach to W 4 street. Again the TO had his door open but he was busy talking to friends. I could see the speedometer. Our top speed was 49 mph and we pretty consistently ran above 45 mph. This driver liked to hit stations at top speed and break heavily as late as possible. I now understand why you slant fans are so devoted. It really is an amazing beast.
Finished the day by taking the 7 Express out to Shea. Every time I ride a redbird I'm more convinced they should just keep running them forever.
Bill
Bill: Amen to that. The Redbirds have been the mainstay of the IRT for many years now and carried the IRT through the worst period in subway history when the transit system came close to total collapse in the mid-seventies. Many of the other R-Types fell by the wayside in those dark days but the Redbirds defied the worst the TA could do (or not do) to them and kept on running. They replaced an equally legendary fleet know as the Low-V's. They more then lived up to the reputation of their famous predecesors.
Larry,REDBIRDR33(YES CAPITALS)
I've operated R40's and R68's from 34th st to west 4th st on 3 track and with no traffic can operate to 49-50 mph enter w 4th street around 45 mph take descent brake and stop smoothly at the 10 car marker..
Just a simple question? What class of car is a Redbird? R-32, R-36 or what? Sorry , I'm from Philadelphia and we only have a couple of lines here to look at.
Thanks sub-talkers!
Chuck Greene
Check out the FAQ on the subject: How to Identify Each Cartype
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you very much for the explanations!!!
Chuck Greene
The simple answer is that redbirds are all cars between the R17 to the R30, and the R33 and R36. What's left that is currently running are the R26/28/29/33/36, all on the IRT. Unfortunately, their days are numbered, and they should start to slowly dissappear by the end of the year.
-Hank
Thanks. Hank
That was a big help!
Chuck Greene
Okay, I played hooky Thursday and took a motorcycle trip up I-87 to our State Capitol. I had two suprising sightings (railwise)en route. First, that NJ Transit trains appear to be staged in a Conrail Yd. in Suffern. Second, there are a number of CP Rail locos working in the yard along I-787 in Albany. No particular point here but I did find both interesting....
You saw the NJT train in the suffern yard. That is the West of Hudson line run by NJT for metro-north. They share the yard with conrail.
That train was most likely waiting for its return trip to Hoboken
Terminal.
CP controls the old D&H (I forget the new name they've given it), hence the CP locos at Albany.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What do the abbreviations CP and D&H stand for?
Canadian Pacific (formerly CP Rail, formerly Canadian Pacific - they recently returned to the original name) and Delaware & Hudson. The main D&H shops were at Colonie, NY, outside Albany. The D&H has had an interesting history, and while I don't have all the details conveniently at hand (my older son laid claim to those books several years ago) I can say that they were once a proud, independent RR, were later part of the Guilford System, then were controlled by the NYS&W, and are now part of Canadian Pacific. I think the current name for the D&H is St. Lawrence and Atlantic, although I may be confusing it with another one of the CP subsidiaries.
A quick search using Infoseek and also some of the links from the Transfer Station section of this website didn't turn up anything but I know that there is a D&H historical society so I'm sure with a little persistance you can find out much more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The D&H is currently operated as the Bridge Line Division of CP. this name originated from the old D&H slogan "The Bridge Line to New England and Canada"
Thanks for the clarification, John - I was afraid I might have mixed that one up!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
St Lawrence and Atlantic is the old Grand Trunk across northern New England!
As I indicated in another response: Oops! Thanks for straightening me out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The former D&H is now part of the St. Lawerence and HUDSON, St L & H, division of Canadian Pacific. The St. L & H also includes routes in Canada that never had anything to do with the D & H - its all the CP tracks east of Toronto, I believe.
When CP created the St L & H, it was looking as if they were preparing to sell it off. Since then, it looks like they are making money on the division and have lost interest in selling it.
Well, at least I had the St. Lawrence part right! :-) Thanks to everyone who straightened me out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did you use sick time? Or do superintendents get days we don't. Cause if you weren't then WRITE YOUSELF UP! :-)
Ah but we have greater discretion as to how we can use oyr sick time. We can use ours to care for a sick family member, for example. We also don't have to bring in Dr's lines unless we go beyond 5 days. We also don't get paid for working RDOs and Holidays. I used one of my comp. days.
Did they catch you out of the house? Oh I forgot, you guys are exempt from that right?
I was reading the operators manual for NJ Transit's U34CH locomotive and it says that the engineer should not go at full speed through a grade crossing or traction motor flashover will result. Could that really happen?
Sure. EMD used to tell you to notch down if you were above 5 also. They say Grade Crossing in the GE books? I've normally read as railreoad crossing, which is an rather ambigous term. Not to say the engineers ever did this. I can remember many a LIRR train taking track switches, crossings, etc in Run 8.
Even more scary (IMHO) than flashover was this tidbit of advice in the E44 operating manual:
"Inspect locomotive for evidence of trouble, especially if there has been an explosion, smoke or fire."
Now, you'd think, if the locomotive had a fire, that SOMETHING was wrong, right?
BTW - this has something to do with the ground protec tion on the E44 - my question is, what the HECK is "ground protection"????
I may have been paraphrasing when I said grade crossings. But that's what it says in the manual. Do not take grade crossings (or railroad crossings) at high speed. Maybe the GE engineers are worried that all that bounce and sway would cause the traction motor to hit the ground. Stupid theory I know, but how else can you explain it?
What they were worried about was the traction motors flashing over - which I guess you can get if you jolt them hard enough while under high power. Unless something is wrong, I can't think of a way the traction motor could hit the ground - they are quite well secured.
Right. But at road crossings, the road COULD be a little high. Ground protection, I believe would refer to to electrical system 'grounding out', that is, electricity takes the shortest path to ground. If that happens to be from the positive terminal to the actual ground, well....
-Hank
OK, a little more accurately, the path of least resistance.
-Hank
One thing to remember is that in almost every case the traction motor is supported by either the axle or the gearbox (no springs). Thus any jolt from the rail goes right to the motor in the form of a hammer blow! Now if the armature bearings are worn or there is end play, that makes the armature bounce, which in turn makes the brushes bounce, drawing a small arc. And a fraction of a second later ... bang!!!
I've seen it happen close up - and it ain't pretty!
That makes a lot of sense to me if I was the engineer of a U34CH. Coud you please enlighten me on what actually happens to a traction motor that suffers this kind of flashover. Can the locomotive move under it's own power or would it need a helper engine?
Locomotives unlike MU cars(subway) can have traction motors individualy cut out. So should one flash and then be inoperative, you simply turn a switch in the cab. You would still have the other three(five on some) to operate with.
Ground relays are like circuit breakers. Whe one goes the engine comes off line. The diesel still runs, but will not provide power. It then must be reset manually in the offending engine. If you have more than one.
Thanks so much for schooling me on ground relays. I had no idea what they were for. You almost have to be an electrician to understand locomotive or MU operation.
Sometimes when a train is pulling into the station, there is a loud squeal, but it's not comming from the brakes. As soon as the train starts up again, you can hear the squeal. Could be a traction motor that needs to be cut out because of a serious problem?
could be new traction motors you're hearing the brushes against the windings
An interesting theory, Anthony. I have been riding the subway since I was a kid, and I still have a lot to learn about traction motors.
i just learned from other posts regarding squealing due to dead motors hmmm
For the record, traction motor brushes do not ride on the motor windings but they do ride on the commutator. New traction motors do have more of a pronounced whine than do older traction motors. This seems fairly 'common sense' since bearing tollerances are much tighter. I've also noticed that when braking from 'full speed', properly operating R-32s make a shrilled whine when in dynamic braking while R-46s do not.
Another thing that I have found and can't explain is that brushes on traction motors will wear faster and take a greater mechanical 'beating' if the propulsion system is inoperative.
Interesting comment Steve. The armature rides differently in its bearings when it is under load. This may change the pressure on the brushes. Another aspect is heat, the brushes are more uniformly warm when current is flowing. Any thoughts Jeff?
Gerry
Nope, got me. At the trolley museum we don't usually wear
traction motor brushes fast enough to worry about it :)
So you're saying that is is possible for the motor to suffer damage if it is turning, but not taking power. Please advse.
No, I said that I find that the traction motor brushes seem to take more of a beating when the motor is dead. The traction motor itself, is not adversely affected - unless it was the cause of the failure.
Okay, I was wrong. Thanks for clearing that up.
OOps so sorry..
Sometimes I wonder if the MTA will ever upgrade their block signals. The current ones are so antiquated, it's sickening. The home signals at Parsons/Archer are more modern and they look quite handsome. The ones on the J line are God awful. I read that those signals have been operating since the 1900s. The signals on the #7 line are weird looking, but can be read from a distance easily because they are so shaded and focused. I agree with the slogan if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but look how many years it has been. Well, at least the subway has some modern signals. Better than none at all.
ahh yes be careful what you wish for you may just get it!
The L line is a test bed for the Communication Based Train Control signal system being installed not to mention Auto Train Operation. The R143 will be the vehicle which will traverse the line with all the bells and whistles..
Iread that those signals have been operating
since the 1900s
Funny, all of the signals in NYCTS have been operating since
the 1900s. The ones that were operating since the 1800s
have finally been upgraded :)
Seriously, though, the BMT color light signals are from
about 1914 or later. The closest thing to a 1904 signal
left on the mainline is at the end of the times-square
bound platform at 5 Ave on the Flushing line. It is an
original 1904 IRT head, but it wasn't from that line.
My favourites are the homeballs in USS territory like
Continental Avenue with the backlit number plates.
OK, it seems I have to get into the act. It doesn't matter what the signals look like to understand their function. All the signals on NYCT operate are of the same basis principles as the most modern of signals used on the Sea Beach, Brighton and Pelham Bay lines. Believe it or not, the original IND equipment utilizing mechanical interlocking machines is the same as the most modern of signal systems on NYCT. The old BMT signaling of yesteryear will finally be replaced with the West End line. When that gets completed, the real old garbage equipment will be gone for ever. The only left will be the White Plains Road line and that will be resignaled shortly. Off course the IND stuff still remains such as 71st-Continental Avenue that you described. However, this equipment while it is old is still in brand new shape, 60+ years old and it's design is up to standards.
CBTC on the 14th Street-Canarsie will cost over $100 million. The bids are supposed in from Union Switch & Signal/Matra, Alstom Signaling (formerly GRS) and Alcatel on June 25.
The main reason why subway block signals have been around for so long is that they work, pure and simple. But there are those of us who would like to see modern signals and automatic train control.
ATC is great - if everything works and is designed to work with it. I haven't seen a retrofit that worked well yet!
CTA installed cab signaling in the 1970s when they built the Kennedy and Dan Ryan expressway median lines, and several of the 4000-series cars (1910s vintage!) had the cab signaling equipment retrofitted so the cars could be used as the front and back ends of work trains. The last of these was just retired in the last year or so, if I recall correctly.
Before CTA got cab signaling, in the 1970s if I recall correctly, basically the only "control", outside the subway tunnels where there were wayside lights with brake trips, were simple spacing boards! These were square wooden boards that a motorman had to see the next one to be able to proceed. Some were electrically lit at night. If another train was inbetween or bad weather obscured the next board, the motorman was supposed to slow down or stop.
The reason CTA trains can maintain 55 MPH routinely is because they have somewhat modern (1970s vintage, anyway) signaling. The aversion some on this board (and I don't mean you, since being concerned about the effectiveness of retrofits is totally reasonable) have to the addition of any new technology to their precious old subway system as mere "bells and whistles" is what is keeping NYCTA trains so slow.
CTA's cab signal system is fairly liberal in its implementation, and the motorpersons maintain a fair amount of control. Boston's version takes control away and a trip on the long run between JFK and North Quincy seldom goes without penalty brake applications. (One coming off the flyover and two coming off the Anderson Bridge are guaranteed unless the motorperson dogs it going uphill.Since normal policy is put it in P4 and let the ATO do the work, that option isn't likely) The limit in the area is fifty, but the downgrade speeds things up and the signal system slows things back down. Very frustrating to feel the brakes come on when there is nothing but straight, clear iron visible ahead for over a mile. Give me a grade timer there any day!
Oh no, I hope it doesn't end up being Alcatel-
The city of San Francisco ended up having to sue them last fall to get them to fix their ATC system, and to recover some of the $ paid them, after it made retrofitted LRV's freeze in place unpredictably for lengthy periods, among other things.
Well, we'll see how this pans out on the L...
The entire J line in Brookyn and Queens had its entire signal system replaced about 5-7 years ago. They are almost brand new. IIRC, the Pelham line still has some of its original 1916ish signals, although that line was recently upgraded as well so I'm not sure they're still there.
Why does the TA seem to re-signal some less critical lines (like the J/M) and not a more heavily used line which could benefit more from them (like the 6th Ave. exp and Lexington Exp. in Manattan)?
One of the factors NYCT uses to determine whether a line's signals need to be replaced is age. The Sixth Avenue express (at least from W. 4th Street to 34th Street) only dates from the late 1960s (and the rest of the line from its opening in 1940), and the Lexington Avenue Line's signals were replaced ca. 1963. Signals have a design life of 50 years. The Jamaica Line signal system dated from the 1910s.
David
[The entire J line in Brookyn and Queens had its entire signal system replaced about 5-7 years ago. They are almost brand new. IIRC, the Pelham line still has some of its original 1916ish signals, although that line was recently upgraded as well so I'm not sure they're still there.
Why does the TA seem to re-signal some less critical lines (like the J/M) and not a more heavily used line which could benefit more from them (like the 6th Ave. exp and Lexington Exp. in Manattan)?]
Though upgraded over time, signal equipment appears to be rather robust - I believe there are still the old Semaphore types in operation on some rail lines out west. Also realize, the switching gear may have been upgraded, but the signal heads themselfs kept. Kind of like when youreplace a ligh switch in your house - you don't throw away all the lights hooked to it, do you? Those things are just that - a bunch of lights. It's what's behind them (the relays, etc) that counts. As a side note - how old are the current LIRR signals?
The LIRR postion light signals pays homage to when the Pennsy owned the LIRR. Even though I can read the signals, I wish the MTA would replace them with something modern, such as the colored signals of NJ Transit. Some railroads use a combination colored/position light signal. Still, others railroads like Metro-North use searchlight types. I imagine these will be phased out in the comming decade. I realize that the LIRR can't just suddenly decide to replace their signals with a wave of the corporate hand, but I think it's about time.
Metro North isn't even using their searchlights for block
indication anymore. Everything is cab signals and any
wayside automatic block signals have been removed. Only
interlocking signals remain.
The mangement at LIRR is very proud of their history. They have one of the few railrads that still has the word "rail road" in the title. Also I believe they are also the longest continually operating RR with it's original name.
Independent and proud, they like the unique position light system, and refuse to change their rulebook to update to the other roads they share track with. Instead prefering to train their people twice.
Don't look for any major changes from there. Although they do have cab territory where there are no automatic signals only home signals. To be sure, the only places where they have both automatics and cab signalling, are places where the traffic is so heavy the redunancy is helpful. Should a train develop a cab signal problem, it can rely on the wayside automatics. Well thought out.
Another problem with 'modern' searchlight signals is engineers with partial color blindness. You can't make a mistake such as what was made in the NJT Seacaucus wreck with a position signal. But then, are color-blind men allowed to be engineers at all?
-Hank
I agree with you on all points. But if you saw the current rolling stock, as compared to say Metro-North and Chicago Metra, it may give you food for thought. I like the position light signals, I was just wondering if they will be upgraded. But I forgot to mention that the LIRR uses colored signals in and around Penn Station; the wayside signals are position light.
Depends on where on Long Island your'e talking about. Some of it is state of the art, and some of it is over 80 years old. Oyster Bay, stone age. Rokonkoma, brand new.
About a month ago, I was making my usual commute to work, and on my way to get on the IRT Lex downtown local at 86th Street, some volunteers(?) were handing out yellow 5X7 postcards to be sent to E. Virgil Conway, MTA chairman, urging him to begin work on the 2nd Avenue Subway. They had posters depicting a "dream" line all the way from Brooklyn through Manhattan (2nd Ave) all the way up through the Bronx. The postcard indicated that the effort was being sponsored by the Manhattan Boro President's office. Of course, being both a railfan and an Upper East Side resident, I promptly signed the card for delivery to the MTA.
My questions are: Has anyone else encoutered these people? Will anything come of this -- how much power does the boro president wield?
(How much power does the borough president have)? The power to promise something for nothing, that's about it. But Virginia Field does seem to have an idea what is not being spent on -- schools and transportation.
Sometimes when I'm on the F train speeding past 65th Street, all of a sudden, there's this violent jerk, like a motor overdosing on voltage. Jerking is something that happened a lot when I rode the train back in the 1970s, especially the #1. Like one car violently pushes the one in front of it. What causes this?
There is a similar occurrence on the south-bound 'F' leaving 5th Avenue. After the curve, there is a 3rd rail gap of approximately 90'. If the train passes over this gap in in 'power', you get the same sort of jolt. I find it very uncomfortable. Clearly the PTR does not drop out as it is expected to do. One of the thoughts is that the 'input filter' on the static converter retain enough of a charge to hold the PTR in for one or two seconds.
I am not familiar with the condition that you describe at that location. However, I'd like to take a look at it. Are we talking north-bound or south-bound?
Speeding past 65th St. certainly sounds like a PTR problem, because at speed the third rail gap usually wouldn't be noticable otherwise. Then again such a 'hiccup' should at the least result in a dirty motor when you inspect. On the other hand coming off a curve the train might be accellerating and the first car would get a bump from its follower as it lost power. The rest of the train would see decreasing effect as more and more of the train was past the gap.
Boston is notorious for gaps at the end of station platforms. The train is accellerating hard and whack - no power in the first car! You feel it! (and that's with only five cars still pushing)
No, we suspect PTR problems because we pin the ammeter at that point. Also, because the remaining 7 cars are still on the curve, the operator is only trying maintain speed by applying power. He's not attempting to accellerate.
This happened while I was travelling westbound at high speed. There is a section of welded rail after the train went over a switch at Jackson Heights. The train was speeding along past 65th Street when that huge jolt occured. Sometimes the same jolt happens when the train is pulling out of the station, not the small one that happens when the motors start accelerating.
There's a capacitive input filter in the static converter?
Why? It's being fed with DC to begin with. The theory
should be very easy to test in the shop.
Probbly to kill any FR interference - my guess is the static inverter creates a square wave at some point in it - nice and full of harmonics. Add a high chopping frequency to it, and you get a good RF converter. And the third rail's probbly a decent antenna.
Probbly to kill any RF interference - my guess is the static inverter creates a square wave at some point in it - nice and full of harmonics. Add a high chopping frequency to it, and you get a good RF converter. And the third rail's probbly a decent antenna.
Yeah...I dunno what the converter design is...probably a buck
converter, but any way the input current waveform would be
nasty, you're right. You don't need a really big cap to fix
that though...the better approach is to use a series choke.
I wonder why this problem would crop up now? Statics have been
in use for over 20 years.
The physical charicteristics of that point are thus: a long staight, followed by a dip of 20 feet and then another straight. Then there's a left hand turn posted at 35 MPH. This is where the local and express diverge.
By the time a train gets to the curve, most times it's doing close to 45. Since the speed limit drops 10 MPH, motormen take a short but heavy brake at this point. Some don't. Bill?
Those that don't will coast a'ways from 65th, letting the speed bleed down to 35 on it's own. Much smoother.
Some guys are in a hurry, and just leave full power right through the curve at 45. It's safe. The 35 is just for passenger comfort. I like the rush of going through at 45, but very few guys do it that way any more. See my posts on Baaaad train operation.
I think this is the jolt you feel at 65th.
I like it when the train is speeding past 65th Street. Sometimes the T/O will keep the train wide open through the turn nd we won't scrub off any speed until we hit congestion at 36th Street. Thank goodness that powerful jolt doesn't happen much.
By the time you leave 65 St. you are usually going in excess of 40 MPH. Anybody who doesn't slow down going around that curve is operating recklessly as that curve has a speed limit of 36 MPH. I always slow down to that posted speed there.
To be fair to all T/O's some do slow down at that curve, some don't. I have no problem with it as long as the T/O doesn't catch a red signal and dump his air. Not a great exprience.
During acceptance testing, we took the R-46s through that curve on the post. That was before they were slowed down. 36 MPH is really under-rating that curve.
I have been doing some reading about the 3rd Avenue Elevated, torn down in the 1950's, but I have never been able to figure out exactly the reasoning that was put forth to the public regarding its removal, aside from broken promises about the 2nd Avenue Subway replacing it.
I know that perservation as a concept did not exist until Penn Station's demolition galvanized the movement, but weren't people afraid they were going to lose a viable means of transportation?
The Bronx part of the El remained some years after the Manhattan section was removed (and called the number 8 on some maps). Why was this also eventually removed? The logic that it was old doesn't hold water when you look at the fact that elevateds in Brooklyn and Queens (I know the Astoria Line was built in 1917) remained. Thoughts anyone?
In Manhattan, the el was removed because it was thought it increase the property values near it and it was obsolete,old and in poor condition. The Bronx part was removed for similiar reasons, and the general glee in which the city took in tearing down els in the 60-70's (the Myrtle, 3rd, Culver shuttle and the outer spur of the Jamaica Ave. BMT all bit the dust from 1969 to 1977)
Yet for some incomprehensible reason, the Franklin Ave. Shuttle survived.
[re demolition of els as a means of improving property values]
In fact, this turned out to be the case only with the Third Avenue el in Manhattan. Removal of els in the outer boroughs did little if anything to improve the surrounding neighborhoods.
Removal of some of those "annoying" els actually destroyed some neighborhoods, especially the lower section of Myrtle Ave. and the outer section of Jamaica Ave.
--In fact, this turned out to be the case only with the Third Avenue el in Manhattan.--
Ironic. As anyone who has ever looked for an apartment anywhere in New York City knows, the closer to rapid transit, the higher the price. Although, judging from the real estate along, say, 31st Street in Queens (Astoria line), property actually facing the el seems to have little value, but turn the corner, and you're shelling out the big bucks (for Queens, anyway)!
Although the Bronx portion of the el was built to heavier standards and all steel subway equipment replaced the wooden el cars, ridership declined sharply in the late 60's.
They probably could have kept the extreem northern part from Fordham (maybe Tremont) to White Plains Rd as a working musueum.
The structure above Fordham was the last constructed and of regular subway car strength. The Mosholu Parkway section lasted until some company could safely demolish it due to the ballasted track on that portion of the structure.
I also remember the piece over the Cross Bronx Expressway standing after the rest was gone! It looked sad...
Thanks, I did not know that piece remained for a while also.
What a loss.
Did anyone see my plan that I put forth last year.
That was, Building a new el structure over the former NYC Harlem Div tracks that would restore rapid transit service to the area and free up the now Metro North from any local service south of Fordham Road or all of it depending the rapid transit route used. (See Next)
This el structure over the Metro North tracks could be used to tie into the 2nd Ave Subway by proceeding east over or into the Port Morris Branch tracks, or connect to the Lex at 149th St or both. An alternative here to another Harlem River tunnel, could be another deck on the NYC bridge, then the line turning west away from the NYC tracks to get to 2nd Ave and underground.
The rapid transit northern terminal could be at the city line or turn at 205th St into the IND terminal or go into Mt Vernon following the NH tracks or just north into Yonkers or how ever far north the line could be taken to pick up local traffic.
I remember that for many years, there were pieces of the 3rd ave EL lying underneath the Willis Avenue bridge. They may still be there. If my memory serves me correctly, across the street is the old terminal station of the New York, Westchester & Back.
I've also considered the idea of some kind of elevated structure over the Metro-North tracks. Some parts of the railroad cut could also be covered over, like the Northeast Corridor tracks through the South End of Boston. I don't know if the community would accept this as a package, but it's worth exploring.
When the el closed in 1973, the South Bronx was in a steep decline and the city had written off any future for the borough. I remember that one of the last parts demolished was the station at 149th Street, which lasted until the summer of 1977.
The 149th St Station had an escalator that went from the subway platform to the el platform which accounted for the time needed to demolish the structure. It must have been quite an undertaking when that escalator was built. Anyone have a date on that installation, and the longest of those rapid transit escalators in NYC.
I think the longest escalator, now and back when the 3rd ave. shuttle still operated is the one connecting the BMT lines to the IND A/C at Broadway Junction/East New York.
Are you just talking about subway-to-el escalators? If not, the one going down to the 7 from 42nd St. near Third Ave. is the longest one I can think of.
According to Stan Fischler's excellent book Uptown Downtown the escalator at 149th/3rd Ave. opened June 1, 1927. Idea was to eliminate paper transfers and reduce crowds crossing the busy streets in the Hub area.
The longest NYC subway escalator I recall is at 181st and Fort Washington Ave. on the A train; the one on the #7 at the west (operationally north) end connecting to the 4,5,6 trains is also a long one.
The longest escalator on any subway in the US or Canada is at Rosslyn on the Washington DC Metro.
The one at Wheaton is longer and the one in Portland at Washington Park is longer still.
Wayne
MARTA bills the escalator at Peachtree Center Station as the longest. I have ridden it many times and you cant even see the bottom (or top) from the other end. MARTA has even posted aisng warning those with claustrophobic tendencies or those afraid of heights to use the elevator. SOmeone from Atlanta will be sending photos of this escalator along with a station description for Peggy's forthcoming MARTA sdtation by station addition to this site.
The escalator at the Woodley Park station on the DC Metro is another monster.
"MARTA has even posted aisng warning those with claustrophobic tendencies or those afraid of heights to use the elevator."
They should put similar signs on the WMATA! Whenever I'm in Washington and riding Metrorail, I use the elevator unless it is out of order (happened only once so far). The one time I took an escalator, at Dupont Circle, I thought I'd never get to the bottom! And that's not even the deepest station on the system.
I find some of the long escalators on WMATA rather disconcerting. I found looking up much worse than looking down. What would they do if someone freaked on one of those things?
They could at least break the escalators into shorter segments with landings. I expect to see Morlocks at the end of those things.
OK, you got me - what's a Morlock?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Assuming I spelled "Morlocks" right)
The ugly but industrious people who lived deep underground in H.G. Wells' Time Machine.
The beautiful but useless people who lived on the surface were the Eloi. The Morlocks ate the Eloi.
Sound like NYC political movements?
Sure does! Thanks - I read War of the Worlds and Invisible Man back when I was in junior high (not as assigned reading, just for fun) but not Time Machine that I recall. My wife's a big sci-fi fan so it doesn't surprise me that we have a copy, but according to our database it's at our North Carolina house so I can't check the spelling.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was probably less expensive to build one l-o-o-o-o-n-g escalator rather than have multiple escalators with landings.
--Mark
I find some of the long escalators on WMATA rather disconcerting. I find looking up much worse than looking down. What would they do if someone freaked on one of those things?
They could at least break the escalators into shorter segments with landings. I expect to see Morlocks at the end of those things.
It's no secret that the LIRR operates antiquated diesel trains. The diesel push-pulls were former MUs converted to coaches. The GP38-2 diesels are unchanged, except for FRA required ditch lights. Now, these new locomotives pulling bi-level cars are entering service. The locomotive itself looks small, but it is huge. You have to see it up close to know what I mean. Through servive into Penn Station is a pipe dream for now because the builder is having a hard time getting the parts to build the full complement of coaches. Of so they say. The dual-mode locomotives are being tested by LIRR crews, but I have not seen one yet. Through service is available only on the Port Jefferson branch, using two former Metro-North FL9s in their original MN livery.
Well, by now I'd assume everyone here knows what I think of the new LIRR stuff, and dual mode operation in general. I gave up holding my breath for this stuff long ago. I hear the south shore is all new stuff. Nice. As useual, us Oyster Bay customers are suffering with the hand me downs. But in a way, it's sad. Because I keep seeing the massive growth of the east end of the Island, and I can't help but wonder how those people are going to get to work. And I've seen Glen Cove in a slump. For years. Accoring to one article - one reason why people won't come back is the commute. I can't help but wonder what the LIRR's ridership would be like - if they were actually decent. I've seen in my 21 years of life the entire NY area transit system get better - except the LIRR. It's as dirty, slow, rude, unreliable as it always was.
Anyway, yeah, the dual modes are "in testing" Figure another 2 years at this rate.
Since we're both LIRR customers (or victims), I agree with you. I have never been on the bi-levels, but I did get so see one up close at Ronkonkoma one morning and at Patchogue. The locomotive is huge. Pictures do not do it justice. I wonder, did the LIRR put any bi-levels on the Oyster Bay Branch yet? I heard a rumor.
Yeah, you see them up here (sometimes) What really gets me is, they screwed up the platform at oyster bay - note the plywood at the east end :)
I heard that the LIRR were thinking about electrification on the Oyster Bay branch. Have you heard anything to the contrary?
Actually, I've heard that too. Last time they tried, Oyster Bay opposed it (supposedly) because they felt it would urbanize the area, or something like that (too many people there), and they dropped the idea - Here's what I think they should do:
2 tracks to Roslyn
Single track to Glen Head. 2 track Glen head station.
Single track to Glen Cove.
Terminate at Glen Cove and use the tracks beyond there for storage.
Let Oyster Bay enjoy the simple life, with no LIRR service at all.
Since the platforms are high (heh), and there's already third rail out to East Wiliston, I bet they could implement it rather cheaply - maybe 50 million? My guess is if they did that, and ran hourly service again, ridership would jump something major. It'd also revitalize Glen Cove, which would push ridership even higher after a few years.
I believe the major cost of the Ronkonkama extension was the rebuild of the track, which wouldn't happen on the OB line, cause they just redid the track like 4 years ago.
I also think electrification is the only thing that will save the line. As long as it's diesel, it will have dismal ridership.
< I heard that the LIRR were thinking about electrification on the Oyster Bay branch. Have you heard anything to the contrary? >
Electrification has only been mentioned in regards to light rail schemes which would make a cross-island line out of the Oyster Bay, West Hempstead and Far Rockaway Lines, but the LIRR is actively opposed to that.
Electrification of current diesel lines in the LIRR's LIRR 20-Year Needs Assessment submission for 1997 - 2016 is limited to Yaphank on the Main Line, Speonk on the Montauk Branch, and the Central Branch from Bethpage to Babylon.
< I heard that the LIRR were thinking about electrification on the Oyster Bay branch. Have you heard anything to the contrary? >
Electrification has only been mentioned in regards to light rail schemes which would make a cross-island line out of the Oyster Bay, West Hempstead and Far Rockaway Lines, but the LIRR is actively opposed to that.
Electrification of current diesel lines in the LIRR's LIRR 20-Year Needs Assessment submission for 1997 - 2016 is limited to Yaphank on the Main Line, Speonk on the Montauk Branch, and the Central Branch from Bethpage to Babylon.
I'm a regular O/B rider (#509 and usually either 566 or 568). There
is one regularly scheduled bilevel on the bay branch, which usually
makes (among others) #511, #560 and #568.
These new things are somewhat more comfortable to ride in, but
they've been at most as reliable as the old equipment, and perhaps
even less reliable.
IMHO, they are shiny new pieces of junk, as opposed to the old
unmaintained pieces of junk. (The old stuff would be fine if it had
gotten some care at all over the past 20 yrs).
"The builder is having a hard time getting the parts to build the full complement of coaches. OR SO THEY SAY" Please give me Any info. on this matter you can.
Thank You
John J. Blair
From what I have read thus far, the company building the new push/pulls says they're having a hard time finding qualified people, they seem to be unable to supply parts for the push/pulls with in-warranty problems, and that the company has been another job which has been given priority. In other words, screw the LIRR. The original order was for 114 bilevels, 23 straight diesel and 18 dual-mode locomotives. I have only seen the straight diesels so far, no sign of the dual modes yet. There are not enough bilevels to start through train service on the Montauk Branch. That only exists on the Port Jefferson Branch; there is one dual-mode train in the early A.M.
Some of the Dual Modes are on the property. I've seen #s 506 and 508 with a string of 7 Bi-levels undergoing function testing around Jamaica. Still waiting for my cab ride too.
As for the delay in delivery of the Bi-Levels, I can think of two reason. Kawasaki has hired at least 3 former TA employees (you will not hear me say this often but one is an absolute moron and the second is unfortunately stupid). The 3rd is an asset, however)
Does anybody know when they will enter revenue service
Right now, the straight diesels and the bi-levels are in passenger service. The dual-mode locomotives are being tested by LIRR crews but are not in passenger service.
Now isn't that special. Three former TA losers get hired by the Japs and us LIRR commuters get screwed. I guess the phrase Change at Jamaica will be with us until next year.
The R-68As had an exceptionally easy time getting through warranty acceptance. I wonder if this had anything to do with one of those people being hired. Comments?
It wouldn't surprise me if those former TA employees influenced Kawasaki management to shift their efforts to another project instead of finishing the LIRR order. The date for the dual-mode trains has been constantly pushed back because not enough bi-levels are on LIRR property to start Penn Station through service.
What does it matter? I have no hope that the dual modes will even work. The Fl-9s sure don't, the P-32s sure don't. I say ditch dual mode, and electrify the whole system. It's only what will happen in the end.
Why do you feel the FL-9s haven't worked? Maybe they haven't worked well on the LIRR - that I don't know - but IMHO they have done yeoman service on Metro North.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You remember the last FL-9 that made it into GCT under third rail power? I sure don't. AFIK, they don't do that neat trick anymore.
I was pushed in by one in the fall of '96 (the last time I rode MN from Poughkeepsie). It was running in electric mode. I shared space in the control cab with the engineer for the entire rainy run, after he discovered I was a railfan and Lodge brother.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow. Every FL-9 I've ever seen in GCT was running Diesel
When Metro-North was created in 1983, they had their teething problems. They were so short on power, they borrowed two E8's from NJ Transit, borrowed a few locomotives from Amtrak and the LIRR. Running diesel trains straight into GCT was a common practice. They're was simply no other way to keep the trains running.
Something I've discovered about dual-modes is that they SOUND like the diesels are running, even when they're not. Apparantly, there are some rather loud fans used to cool the electrical propulsion equipment.
-Hank
Are you talking about the new DM30's or the FL-9AC's. The FL9's are tremendously loud when sitting in stations. The DE30's are much louder than the old Geeps, but not as loud as the FL9's..
They're all loud, and sound like running diesels even in electric mode. Haven't seen a DM30 yet. I'm talking the FL9 and the P32DMs.
-Hank
The FL9 and the P32 Genesis diesels are loud. But I think that the DE30AC's are quieter than their predecessors. The loudest ones I know are the SW1500's (MP15AC) LIRR locomotives. I rode shotgun behind one in the vestibule of a car behind the locomotive. Very loud, but very sweet.
The ttrains are quiter but the horns are extremely loud.
I live 1/8 of a mile from the Montauk Branch trackage. I can hear the horn like I was standing in the station. My only gripe is that the horn sounds just like the GP38-2's. But the cab control bi-levels have a distintive sound to their horns, like the M1 cars, but you can tell the difference between the two.
You should try riding in the cab! I used to go home every night with my ears ringing.
I rode in the cab of one going to LIC one morning. I have to agree - noisy but music none-the-less.
I wonder, how is it that railfans get a chance to ride in the cab of a LIRR or Metro-North locomotive? Anyone willing to share any tips?
Well it helps if you have a pass (ID card) from another railroad. I've been extended the courtesy on Amtrak and the rail-fan train that runs through Spencer Shops & Yd. in N.C. among others.
Since I don't have a pass, I'm content riding shotgun in the vestibule of the car behind the locomotive.
Luck, and either knowing the engineer or having some other connection (fraternal order, for example) with him.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You may be right Hank. Sometimes, if I'm on Park Avenue near 46th Street, I can hear the FL9's entering/departing GCT from street level. They do sound like their cooling fans are running full blast. Out in the open, they're even louder, if you can believe that.
That can't be right.......every time I see DM in GCT or Penn they have to be on electrical power.....the fumes from the Disel engines would sufficate anyone near the tracks the DM is on. The only thing that sounds out of place on the DMs are the fact that teh main cooling fans which work weither is running on Diesel or Third rail.
Dual-mode locomotives are indeed running on third rail power in and about Penn Station or GCT. During the early years of Metro-North, diesel trains regularly came into GCT, fumes and all. It was the only way to keep the trains running. At that time, most of the FL9's lost their dual-mode capabilty because of deferred maintenance. I think the reason why the cooling fans run while running on third rail power is because all that electrical equipment in the carbody generates a lot of heat. Electronics don't work well in a hot enviroment.
You're right. On the FL9AC The fans keep the inverter room cool. The radiators for the prime mover are directly above the inverter room at the rear of the engine.
To this day MN Engineers occasionally leave the FL9's in diesel mode in GCT because they don't trust the third rail mode.
One of the big reasons the 3rd rail mode isn't too reliable is it's complexty. Using it's propulsion control computer, the system senses when the leading contact shoe comes off the thid rail. Then it automaticaly adjusts it's HEP supply to get it's voltage from the traction motors now rolling free as generators, ala dynamic brake.
As soon as the trailing contact shoe goes dead the computer engages the traction motors to the HEP. This way there's no dimming of the lights or loss of air conditioning when crossing through a third rail gap.
The weak link in this is the ripple detection transformers connected to the contact shoes. They were constantly shorting out. If they dont have an out put to the computer, then the ripple detection doesn't work. And now the HEP goes down and the traction motors roll free.
LIRR FL9AC engines particularly have this problem. Also the air compressors and the battery chargers all operate from third rail voltage, either from the rail itself or the main alternator of the engine.
Ripple detection was supposed to protect these vital systems from voltage spikes and the like. Sometimes it failed. With resulting failures in one of the other supply components.
So rather than get trouble for running on the rail, some engineers just leave em in diesel mode. Very few who do use the diesel mode shut off the engine, just in case.
In Pennsylvania Station, well that's different. Amtrak don't want to hear it!
What happened- there was a fire on an R68 yesterday. any one have info. It was on the news but i missed the report- just saw a picture
I only have partial news about this. Happened between 2 & 2:30 PM. Service was out for at least 90 minutes. Power on all tracks was cut. An R68 car exploded on the n/b local track at the 182/183 St. station. Sounds more than just a blown traction motor. Power was eventually restored to the middle track and s/b local track. Then they had a hard time getting the train out due to a signal problem. After that, I got to an area where I could no longer hear what was going on in the Bronx.
If you or anyone else has the unit number or numbers (as I had heard there were two cars involved), could you please pass them along so I can mark these hippos as "roasted".
Wayne
[If you or anyone else has the unit number or numbers (as I had heard there were two cars involved), could you please pass them along so I can mark these hippos as "roasted". ]
Car involved is 2579 !!!
As Wayne will probably ask " Is she totalled?" and I will add "What happened- how can a subway car explode without a criminal act"?
Must have been an internal short in the motor, probably in the field or armature winding.
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) I was asked, yesterday, to be on the committee investigating the incident. As you can understand, because of the seriousness of the incident and with employees having been injured, it would be highly improper for me to comment at this time. However, we began our invesstigation this morning and I can safely say that the car will be out of service for a long time. Hopefully, it will be moved to Coney island this weekend so repairs can begin.
One order of roast hippo, coming up. #2579 gets an orange box (fire).
Thank you for the information.
Wayne
Speaking of which, was that wallowing beached whale of a slowpoke part of a four-car set, or was it still a single car? Was it traveling in excess of 25 mph when the fireworks started?
Whatever the case maybe, the 4 car linking project has just been fouled up in the worst way as there are no replacements for 2579. What do you do to solve the problem of the missing car that's supposed to be linked if it hasn't been done so already?
-Constantine
Steve: Are there contigency plans if it is a fleet-wide (R68A) problem and many have to be removed from service such as happened with the R44 problem?
I don't want to give the wrong impression and suggest that there is an immediate problem however, this is not the first time we've seen this type of incident. After one in 1995 a committee was formed to analyze the problem and come up with short term, intermediate, and long term options to prevent this from happening. I was on the original committee (which explains why I'm involved now). The short and intermediate term solutions had all but eliminated this problem until this failure. However, the long-term fix is to replace the current propulsion control packages with Westinghouse E-Cams om the R62As, R68 and R68A fleets. This is currently under way.
That is a very insightful observation and something that must be addressed. There will be 9 unlinked (option)cars. Although engineering has objected to linking original & option cars together in the same 4-car unit, this may force the issue. I see little possibility of repairing the damage to 2579 during the life of the linking program. That's not to say that it might not be set up for linking with it's 3 future mates.
Steve,
In the mean time, 2579's mates are going to have to remain single so they can be utilized for operation. Use them on the Franklin Shuttle. You need 6 cars for the Shuttle, correct? 4 to operate on the shuttle, and the other two would lay over outside of Prospect Pk. If you only need the two sets, then perhaps 2576,77, and 78 could mix with say 2720-24, while 2716, 17, 18, and 19 stay on the shuttle. You would have one full 8 car set running somewhere.
Perhaps the FS should not be restricted to R68s.
If another accident occurs, then Coney Island may wind up with mismated R68s (or 68As for that matter).
-Constantine
Steve,
I just got another idea! If you suffer from a shortage of R68s on the Franklin Shuttle, why not use the 2 car R46 sets from Jamaica when necessary????
-Constantine
Thanks but no thanks. If I give up a two-car unit, I lose a G train which must be replaced with 10 R-32s. I definitely can not spare that.
RTO bulletin #80-99 came out before the 2579 fire. It had door operation procedeures for OPTO operation at terminals. It had the car numbers for Franklin Shuttle Operation when the line reopens. There has been a change. The bulletin lists the last 9 cars from the contract (2916 to 2924) will be the cars assigned.
The R-68s were purchased in two groups. The original 225 cars, numbered 2500-2724, and the 200 'option' cars, numbered 2725 to 2924. At the engineering meetings we discussed the number sequence of the linking, extensively. Two issues found engineering & maintenance at odds.
First If the cars were linked sequentially, it was clear that the 57th linked unit would have 1 original car and 3 option cars. Engineering did not want this to occur because of some subtle wiring differences between the two.
Second The linking sequence, even-odd-even-odd (perferred by maintenance) as opposed to the R-44/R-46/R-68A type sequence perferred by engineering. (previously discussed here).
The RTO bulletin would suggest that engineering concerns have been disregarded with regard to the original/option linking concerns. I suppose that engineering might have been overruled but I suspect that the RTO bulletin will likely be revised before the Franklin Shuttle re-opens.
I understand. Thanks, Bill.
-Constantine
What was the number of the other car that was involved?
How are deliveries on the new LIRR Coaches going ?
Delivery of the new cars is gong to take a long time, past the LIRR's target date because of "problems" with the company building the cars. But the LIRR has received the full dual-mode order, they're not in passenger service yet. Any more news I get will be gladly relayed to you.
Well today is the big day. I myself will be taking the Exam at 4PM . Good Luck to all.
Can anyone confirm whether there has been a problem with some of the new track segments mis-aligned w/ the old ones? If so, will this push back the anticipated completion date (10/17)?
Since all segments of old track (and a great deal more) were removed from the entire length of the bridge and its approaches, there are only two places where an old track segment meets a new segment. If there is a misalignment, it would have to be at one of those spots. Unfortunately, neither of those spots is visible from any spot open to the public. Maybe someone who is working on the project can tell us more.
Sorry, but this one's gonna be a bit on the long side:
Just wanted to report that I went to the Brooklyn Public Library's main branch at Grand Army Plaza yesterday. I went to do my long-overdue research project on the supposed LIRR Flatbush branch connection to the Franklin Shuttle and related subjects therein. As it turns out all the publications that I was interested in -- from the early part of the century dealing with Kings County -- were included in a seaparate part of the library known as "The Brooklyn Collection". I was VERY much surprised at the numerous volumes of traction-related subjects in the collection, which even included bound volumes of the BRT's official publication "The Third Rail" (Hey, Paul, were you paying homage to the BRT with "your" version?) dating to the turn of the century!
I was there to take a look at the book "History of the Atlantic Avenue Improvement & Report of Progress in 1906". It was a beautifully written text describing the work (both before and after) to turn the LIRR Flatbush branch from a countrified grade line to it's present part subway/part elevated status. I learned a few interesting things, the most important being the reason why the line was not made subway throughout it's run to E. New York: the cost of re-routing the sewer lines at all the major intersections along Atlantic Avenue would have made the project cost prohibitive! That's why the LIRR does that "dance" -- up at Nostrand Ave., but back down by Ralph Ave. And of course the book mentions the massive interchange/crossover at Broadway Junction with the Bay Ridge Line (that eventually got submerged into a viaduct). Again, the Flatbush branch has to re-emerge from the subway to "grade" for the allowance of the Bay Ridge freight line running north-south beneath it.
Since most everything in "The Brooklyn Collection" is old and rare, checking them out is strictly forbidden (reference copies only). However, I was able to copy almost the entire book. It wasn't a large volume, and also got to copy a number of it's "tissue-paper like fold-out drawings and plans (One shows that the Flatbush line was dual-purpose and used to have four tracks -- two for freight to meat packing houses adjacent to the Flatbush-Atlantic terminal. Verrry interesting to me at the amount of commerce and industry that once abutted the LIRR terminal area at Flatbush).
In any event -- and I've gone on here a bit to long -- any of you guys residing in Brooklyn (or passing through) do yourselves a favor and drop by the Grand Army Plaza branch. You will not be disappointed at the rather large collection of rare rail-related books at that location.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
< (Hey, Paul, were you paying homage to the BRT with "your" version?) dating to the turn of the century! >
Yes.
Here's an excerpt from "History of the Atlantic Ave. Improvement, 1906": [The elevated structure between Williams and Shepard Avenues was laid out sufficiently wide for four tracks, the railroad company having a right of way to accomodate such a structure, and at Manhattan Crossing provision was made for connection, both east and west, with the tracks of the Manhattan Beach Division, which intersected the main line at that point. Possible connections were also provided by underground turnouts with the Brighton Beach Railroad near Franklin Avenue and with the freight terminal of the Long Island Railroad at Vanderbilt and Carlton Avenues. The plans also provided for depressing the entire Flatbush Avenue passenger station and the freight yard between Carlton and Sixth Avenues to conform to the change of grade of the railroad.]
The above is from page 6 paragraph 2 of "History of the Atlantic Ave. Improvemnt...". Interesting how back in those days Broadway Junction/East New York was called 'Manhattan Crossing' (At least that's what I assume the author is referring to?)
And it would appear that, yes, a tunnel was started to accomodate a connection to the then Franklin Ave. stop of the Brighton line.
And I also learned that what is today a lay-up yard for LIRR equipment at Atlantic by 5th Ave. was infact a freight yard terminal in the early days.
Doug aka BMTman
The BPL also has (or had) excellent newspaper archives; I think they were given the entire Brooklyn Eagle files and possibly some of the other old Brooklyn newspapers.
I don't know if they're still available, but in the 1960s the New York Public Library had fairly complete runs of both the IRT and BRT/BMT employee magazines. Reading them provided a nice break from a graduate school Renaissance literature project from time to time.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Ed, FYI I believe the Brooklyn Eagle collection is in the hands of the Brooklyn Historical Society (formerly the Long Island Historical Society) and not the BPL. Unfortunately, however, -- due to both renovation work, and a lack of private donations -- the BHS is not due to reopen until the year 2001! So it'll be awhile before we get to check out their archives.
BTW, did you know that one of the local Brooklyn Heights' area papers has re-established the "Brooklyn Eagle" moniker? It is now called "The Brooklyn Daily Eagle".
Doug aka BMTman
< BTW, did you know that one of the local Brooklyn Heights' area papers has re-established the "Brooklyn Eagle" moniker? It is now called "The Brooklyn Daily Eagle". >
In past times it was called "Brooklyn Daily Eagle" also. There have been a number of attempts to resurrect the name. There was one as early as 1957 or 1958 or so (the paper folded in 1955) which tried to pretend that they were an actual revival, but none of them flew.
At any rate, folks should be aware that the original Brooklyn Eagle was a full-sized city newspaper like the New York Times or Herald Tribune, with a Washington staff and all the bells and whistles.
In the end it was tabloid-sized but tried to maintain its reputation. It suffered, among other things, from being a very liberal paper during the McCarthy era.
I count its demise in 1955, the last trolley in 1956, and the loss of the Dodgers in 1957 as three big blows to Brooklyn's unique identity.
(If you tell me the new "Brooklyn Daily Eagle" is more than a neighborhood paper, you can knock me over with a feather.)
To Doug aka BMTman--
Thanks for the correction about the Eagle's whereabouts; I had completely forgotten that. And I had heard about the "new" Eagle. I've had a subscription to "Brooklyn Bridge" magazine since it started and they mention things like that from time to time.
Paul Matus's comment reminded me that the Eagle's most famous reporter was probably Walt Whitman, though he's generally felt to be a better poet than newswriter.
Does the Historical Society also have collections of other old newspapers from Brooklyn?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Doug: I have some track maps of the Atlantic Ave. line, both before and after the Atlantic Ave. Improvement of the early 1900's, which may help you in your research. Send me an e-mail if you're interested.
I attened the Central Electric Railfan Assn. (CERA) meeting last night in Chicago. The meeting was very well attended and I had the opportunity to meet a couple of other Sub Talk contibutors. Nice to see the faces that go with the names.
Joe
Joe - Thank you again for the great presentation. I now know the third "J" from Chicago, as Thurston has referred to us.
I forgot to give you my card. Drop me an e-mail at jrkramer@prodigy.net and I'll see what I can do about writing out some things about Philadelphia for you.
Again, Thanks!
- Jim K
Chicago
Joe it was a pleasure meeting you last night, and I am looking forward to riding PCC'S in Kenosha,Wi.
I knew i was'nt crazy. I could feel that all subway lines (excluding the N&R) used to move faster. I've heard that this is due to no field shunting any more. What exactly is field shunting? How does it make a train move faster?
Go back and check the SubTalk archives - there's been quite a bit of discussion on the subject within the last six weeks. "Seek and ye shall find", or words to that effect:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When two resistances are placed in parallel, the net resistance is lower than the smaller of the two resistances. The field shunt uses that fact to lower the effective resistance of the field coils, thereby allowing more current to flow through the motor, producing greater speed.
Errm, close but not quite 100% electrically correct. Field
shunts work on the principle of a current divider: if you
have a fixed current flowing through a resistance, and you
shunt it by placing another resistance in parallel, the
current divides. Why that is a good thing for traction motors
is something me & Gerry ORegan wrote extensively on a few
weeks ago, so I won't re-run it here.....if anyone is interested
just search Subtalk archives.
Check out my homepage. It's not as good as this one, but it's not bad. http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/subways/index.html
Hey Tony,
There's nothing on your page, and it links right to here. You shouldn't try to pass off this page as yours.
I didn't try to pass off this page as mine. I merely suggested it as a good link. All the other stuff on there is mine.
I've got the same problem as John - I can't find anything on your home page except the link back here and the link to the MTA home page. You mention Pictures, but there's nothing to click. Is something wrong with your page?
The problem is that his text color and background color are the same (red). The reason the links to this site and to the MTA site stand out is because you've visited them and your browser shows those in different colors. I surf with my own preferred colors overriding the web page's suggested ones and had no trouble seeing his links.
I have noticed that not all T/O's go over a switch the same way. Some do it in series, some accelerate towards the switch then cut power to the motors. I can see, usually from another platform, that if the T/O starts moving and then abruptly cuts power to the motors, there is a flash of light from the switch box. What causes that flash I wonder? It is a voltage arc?
When the master controller handle is moved to 'coast' the controller runs back and the main contactor (Line Breaker on GE or Line Switch on Westinghouse) will drop out. Since each truck can be drawing several hundred amps, when the line contactor opens, an arc is drawn. Both GE & Westinghouse use an Arc Chute & Magnetic suppression to prevent damage from the arcing.
Yes, the hundred-year-old technology of a magnetic arc blowout
is still in use and effective. Basically a few turns of heavy
wire are in series with the switch. This sets up a magnetic
field across the switch contacts. When the switch is opened
and an arc is drawn, by Biot-Savart's Law, the electrons forming
the arc experience a force which pushes them outward. That's
the so-called "blow-out". As long as the arc continues to flow,
it assumes a bent, drawn-out shape. This increases the effective
length of the arc and eventually it is too long to sustain
and it goes out. The arc chute confines the arc to
a narrow box outside of the switch contacts and keeps it from
hitting something important.
I read that two locomotives of the same make and/or model MU'd together would transition at the same speed than say a GP38-2 and a B23-7 MU'd together. What does that mean?
It means the motor connections are switched from series to parrallel.
Were doing three tours of the Atlantic Avenue tunnel, starting at 11AM, on Sunday, June 27. The other tours are at 1PM and 3PM. Those interested can meet at Court St and Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn.
Bob,
Thanks for the note... in the future I'd be glad to post news of your tours on our Upcoming Events calendar. Sorry I couldn't make it!
-Dave
I just wanted to give credit to the hard working volunteers at Shore Line Trolley Museum for their outstanding job this weekend. The equipment that I rode on ran beautifully. There were many many excellent photo oppertunities. I definitely recommend that if you have the chance go up there for a day, volunteer and enjoy the ride
My daughter & I were "customers" again on Saturday, rode or boarded:
Trolleys: #4573 BRT; #220 3rd Ave; #629 3rd Ave; #1001 PCC B&Q
Subways: #3662 Hi-V; #5466 Lo-V; #1689 R-9; #6688 R-17; #1227 BU & #503 H&M (well to be honest I didn't even board her, but she was out of the barn)
I echo Charles comments about the ample crews & frequent operations. I went to Wendy's for lunch & was glad to get back to Shore Line where it was cooler. There was even a tour that showed up about 2 PM. Rides on the subways after that were very reminicant of there days in NYC, i.e crowded, incl. strap hangers, kids, and adults young & old.
Some may remember Jeff's offer to provide a operators "lesson" after hours for anyone signing up as a new member or upgrading to "regular" member status. I fell into the latter & DID get a lesson, actually two: With Jeff & Steve K. at my side I piloted the Hi-V to Short Beach & the Lo-V back to "yard limit". Now I feel a little guilty about still being just a "customer", but that's good, because I'm now even more motivated to get up there soon to help.
Mr t__:^)
I would love to "get behind the wheel" of 1689 or even 6688. Gotta be careful, though: one's got AMUE brakes, while the other has SMEE.
That's a good point.
Even more sentient, though, is that neither of them have a wheel :)
(BTW: Thanks to everyone who braved the hear to came up to SLTM this weekend!).
Hello All,
I'm back after a long absence (PC trouble) and let me say to all parties who have had excellent comments to say about the SLTM, I really hoped you've enjoyed yourselves. Being a member of the Museum, let me say that I too enjoy riding the veterans of the rails. My one regret is that I couldn't meet you kind folks (sorry Thurston), due to my inability to be at BERA physically. It is because of the general public that the SLTM exists, and your continuous support would be greatly appreciated.
Did someone say 6688 was running??? Surprise, surprise!!!!
Regards,
Constantine
Yup, 6688 was up and running just fine, albeit it was underdressed for the occasion (half-primer, and unfortunately the half that you board from).
Of course, it seemed slower than usual, but only because I was in it after a run with #1001 which was running noticably faster than usual.
Thanks for the info. I'll be up there over the weekend to take care of business again concerning the Rapid Transit Car Project.
I'm sorry that I missed being there; I was informed by my respected friend (you know who) that I was going to get handle time in the yard limits with the R17.
This car really knows how to swing...
See You Soon,
Constantine
As Steve K said 6688 was running and I also made note of your work in progress. The other subway I was referring to was H&M #503 which was on the loop track ... Oh guess what ... on the PCC tour (6/29) we met a PATH Operator named Al who said he's part of the crew restoring 503 and asked us to say a big H-I to Jeff. What a small World !
Mr t__:^)
I hope you'll be up there at SLTM again sometime in the near future....
I did get a nice surprise (as I was informed by a colleague), which unfortunately I missed on Saturday. Imagine having handle time with a SMEE car. What more can I ask for?
Cheers,
Constantine
Richard Brome's given us a new "SubTalk" logo. Thanks to Richard!
-Dave
Its looks Great! Great job Richard
When the board loaded I actually said "W O W". It got my attention. Nice job Richard
Thanks!
It looks great this side of the pond too.
Simon
Swindon UK
To echo Joe M's comment:
When the board loaded I actually said "W O W". It got my attention. Nice job Richard
Dave, your new logo is OK I thank Richard Brome Also.
Thanks! It is great. Now we need to prevail for a new Bus Talk Logo-maybe a goldfish bowl?
Looks nice!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone know how similar these two car types will be? Will the 142 be an exact copy of the 110A or will there be any drastic changes?
I'm not even going to bother to ask when they will be in passenger service or if real pictures of the 142 are availible.
This incident happened back in 1987. One afternoon I was on the downtown platform waiting for the #1 train at 168th Street. When I got to the platform, I noticed the station was filled with smoke. Turns out that there was a small track fire just inside the mouth of the tunnel on the uptown side. There was no firemen around, no garbled TA announcement, not even a fire alarm. What was so outrageous was that uptown train service wasn't affected. Trains just rolled past the fire like it wasn't even there. I got back on the elevator and took the downtown A train home. That evening, it wasn't mentioned on the news. To this day, I still wonder, did anybody put out that fire, or just let it burn to spite the MTA.
I got a similiar story, from late 1986:
Back then I would regularly ditch school to ride the subways. I was at the Metropolitian Ave. stop waiting to get on an M train. There was some delay, and finally I left the train to see what was up. The train was an 8-car R-16, and there was a transit worker in the back, looking down between the cars to check some sort of problem. When a train arriving on the opposite track pulled in everyone was told it would be the next train out. 10 minutes later it was announced that the crossover switch was stuck, so that train could not switch over to the Manhattan bound track. So we were left there, with a broken train on the only track out, and a perfectly good train (of R-30's) on the other track, unable to leave because of a broken switch.
People started to get pissed. They then decided to detach the front 4 cars of the R-16 and operate it as a shuttle to Myrtle/Broadway. I can still remember the waiting passengers grumbling to the men on the trackbed trying to detach the cars, screaming (If we let this train go out the back car is gonna de-rail....Do you all wanna die?). I felt sorry for them.
So, after about 30 minutes the train finally left. Of course it was jam-packed by the time it pulled out of Fresh Pond Road (This was at about 8 AM). All seemed OK until the train got to Central Ave where something under the front car exploded (very loudly). Smoke was everywhere, people fled the train, especially in the first car. The train was stuck. The whole line was out of commision. We finally had to squeeze down the only stairwell to get to the other side of Central Ave. to get a train back to Wykoff Ave. so we could get the L train. But because of the accident all M trains were being terminated at Myrtle/Bway. So there were no trains. Finally we were all given block tickets so we could get the B54 bus to Wykoff and finally be able to catch an L train. When I saw the lines waiting for these busses I just walked to Myrytle/B'way myself. You gotta remember I was a 15 yo white guy walking through what I thought was "gang country" and I prayed the whole way that I wouldn't get shot (LOL). Finally, at 9:15, I got a J train at Myrtle Ave.
I often wondered if this incident finally caused the TA to retire the R-16.
The motto of this story: Go to school!
I couldn't agree with you more.
The R-16s, or what was left of them by 1986, were already slated for retirement and were playing out the string. I wonder if one of the cars was 6321. There was an article in the Times in December of that year which chronicled the final months of its troubled life, and how it was finally put out of its misery.
I didn't any attention to car numbers back then, so I'm not sure. I seem to have had bad luck on R-16's before. I can remember once being stuck on an R train (around the same time) that stalled in the 60th st. tube for over 45 minutes.
Was the R-16 bad from the beginning, or was it the lack of maintenance that led to its horrible condition near the end?
Didn't the R-16 have MCM controllers, and a tendancy to stage Three Mile Island before they were en vouge? For that matter - what WERE the duds in NYC history? My list would probbly be short*, but here it is:
Subway:
R-46
R-68 (Le S#!tcan!)
LIRR:
M-1, M-3, both are lousey cars, IMHO.
Metro-North:
M-4 By far the worst of the New Haven fleet. Buzzes, rides like junk
P-32 Looks cool, when it's *not* being towed back to Croton Harmon.
Not really, MN, but the EP-5s were supposedly notorious for catching on fire.
NJT:
ALP-44 - I won't even go into how many times I've seen one of these ABB quality products stuck in Penn because of some problem.
Amtrak:
E-60 If I had to explain, you wouldn't understand ;)
The Boeing LRV probbably gets the #1 trophy in this catagory.
*: Boy, was I wrong about that!
I always thought the r42's were considered the most dissapointing cars bought by the MTA. Besides being sluggish, whats so wrong with the sh!tcans?
We must be thinking about two different R-42s. When they were new, they were as fast as the R-10s. I rode them on the N in 1971, and they flat-out rocketed along 4th Ave. and Broadway (yes, the N was a bona fide express back then).
The main problem with the s*&#can R-68s is lack of speed, brought about, no doubt, by the removal of field shunting. Maybe a shunt circuit could be added which would activate when it would detect an upgrade and resulting dropoff in speed. Couldn't they be souped up just a smidgen?
I've ridden the R-16s only twice, and then for very short trips, and they didn't disappoint me either time. It's safe to say that deferred maintenance contributed significantly to their early demise.
The R-68 isn't really a dud, it just has no soul. The R-16 was both slow and prone to breakdowns, while the 68s are pretty reliable (except for the exploding ones, of course)
Also, the R-46 has been good since its late 1970s problems. Better to swap it with the R-44 on your list.
The IRT has always kept their trains simpler, and therefore more reliable, though going by the newspaper stories a few months ago, the R-142 could be a problem child.
The Staten Island ME-1 were absolutely notorious for catching fire. I note the following destroyed by fire:
306, 307, 311, 313, 315, 318, 319, 322, 326, 333, 338, 351, 358, 372, 376, 377, 378, 382, 390.
That's 19 cars out of a total of 110. Abstitively flammable!
The biggest lemons in NYCT history is a tie: R16 and R44. Awful!
Wayne
While any MU in the fleet may be capable of having a squealing motor, I see it more often on the cars on the D/Q line.
Let me begin by saying THE MOTORMAN WAS AT FAULT! Lest others accuse me of bias.
In this past friday's NY Post, it was reported a work train collided with a passenger train on the Canarsie line. Joe Hoffmann specifically blamed keying by signals and ice on the rails. The MTA inspector general WASN'T NOTIFIED! Why?
The train operator WASN'T disciplined. Why?
Because he had called in earlier that the train had long brakes. And after receiving this notifiction management did not remove the train from service. Doing so would have meant canceling a general order. A very inconvienient an expensive proposition.
So to cover up that the accident was actually management's fault they did not notify the MTA inspector general or the PTSB. System safety, management's pawn.
So in a case where it was clearly the motorman's fault, they caught flak because their hubris couldn't allow them to admit they too had made a mistake.
Never trust the TA. Satan runs the TA
< Never trust the TA. Satan runs the TA >
I doubt that. Satan has a much better management team.
This was the incident of January 8, 1996, during the blizzard, correct? The train that was hit was stuck at Bushwick-Aberdeen with door trouble, so I was told. The train that did the hitting was supposed to be clearing the tracks of snow (it had been snowing for almost twelve hours when the accident happened). It lost its footing on the downslope due to slippery rails. I wasn't aware of the key-by.
Equipment involved was Slant R40, units involved were #4427 and #4428.
Both were seriously damaged and await disposition or repair.
Just making sure my notes are straight, not taking sides with any party, guilty or otherwise. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Wayne
Wayne is corect. It wasn't a work train, it was a "lite" R40 slant called sweeper. As usual, the Post got another transit story wrong. Sure the train operator ran the red signals. That's because the train couldn't stop since it was sliding down the icy rails. She couldn't stop.
Thank you, Bill. Now, I have one more question, if the information is available - just how bad was the damage and which unit got the worst of it? I would assume those two are somewhere at CI yard awaiting their fates...
Too bad they don't have a few spare Slant R40 cowls (they're bigger than bonnets!) on hand like they do for the R40M/R42 bonnets.
Wayne
One of the cars (I think 4427) is visible leving Ave X on the F. The front end is destroyed. I think it is by the fire school. I don't know where the other car is.
lets just say the train operator should have stated clearly via the radio "Train is UNSAFE to operate" you can be sure that it would have been taken out of service. Some decisions control center will in an instant say to remove train from service, others you have to spell it out that an unsafe condition exists since the conversation is being recorded. That grade from B'way Junction into Bushwick Aberdeen is steep so if an ice condition existed as mentioned the probability for a train to slide are favorable regardless of the timers even if the train went BIE the wheels lock up and you've got a runaway train..
Yes, but was the T/O aware that the train ahead of her had gone down at Bushwick-Aberdeen (if it wasn't there, her train may have slid harmlessly to a stop)? If I were operating under conditions such as that I would go down that ramp DEAD SLOW (is there a speed less than switching?). I would think that the chances for losing control would decrease if the train were going at the slowest possible forward speed, even on slippery track.
Wayne
There is no power position lower than switching, but a motorman has
the option of only using switching periodically, and modulating
the duty cycle to obtain any speed.
Of course, in this situation on a downgrade, one can modulate the
speed using the brake alone, and not need to draw any power.
If the story has been told accurately, then it seems that either the
T/O was inexperienced, reckless, or just dumb in operating faster than conditions dictated.
It's called Gravity! The train was going down a steep grade and it slid down due to icy rails. It can happen to a motor vehicle as well!
In those conditions snowy icy roadbed and tracks downhill and approaching a red signal i would have stopped and not move again till the signal cleared to yellow. Next release the brakes let train begin rolling slowly without taking power, see what the signal aspects show. There would be no need to take power in that scenario gravity alone would have propelled the train.
I agree wholeheartedly. If it were me at the handle, I would have sat right there at BJ station until I got a yellow at the portal mouth.
I still think the T/O was probably unaware of the other train's door problems.
Wayne
You would have to leave Broadway Junction anyway because those are grade time signals.They won't clear until you approach them.
From my experience as a T/O, I don't care HOW SLOW you think you can operate your train; if it isn't going to stop, it isn't! Case in point back in the '80s I was flagging a fully loaded two tiered "CWR", on the downgrade portion of the Manhattan Bridge when the train went into emergency during a heavy thunderstorm. Needless to say if my partner didn't scream bloody murder on the radio for Dekalb to line us up to the bypass at 154X, Wayne might have another unslanted R-40 and I'd have bought the farm. By the time he regained control we were 300 feet north of Dekalb. When we reached the peak we were only 12 to 14 MPH so imagine if we were in todays world where the bulletins mandate maximum speed should be attempted (15 on curves and 25 on straight). The TA mandates that you proceed out of stations on yellow, except where the stop markers have yellow stripes, unless told otherwise by authority. If the signal is green, why would you "hold back"? The Willy B crash would have been avoided if either the Essex Tower reported to control center that there was a work train on that bridge or if the M train reported the red signal behind the work train. Either way, Layton Gibson's train was never told to hold at Marcy, therefore was allowed to continue and now I'm still grieving the loss of a friend and his widow. By the way someone on this site posted yesterday that the TA turned up the emergency air, not the service brake air after that crash and wondered when transit will stop their attitudes of "if it ain't broke, fix it anyway".
It is very rare that an operator will say "Unsafe to operate" because if they did, they would be moved to a siding where the'd have to wait for supervision before they could be moved to a yard. What they usually say is the "The Train is Unsafe to Operate in Customer Service". This way they can get the train to the yard ASAP and perhaps take an extended break. What amazes me is how a 'poor braking train' can be operated at speed back tot he yard after customers have been discharged.
if its just poorly braking i'm sure its not meant that the train CAN"T STOP? If a trains brakes are so poor that the operator would have to operate so slowly to safely operate the consist wouldn't the ENTIRE line be backed up then?. From one standpoint if a train isn't braking correctly usually an RCI or a TSS is called to the train in question and rides the train to determine what actions should be done(continue/remove from service). If that train can't be safely moved after its passengers are discharged I'm sure it wouldn't be operated recklessly. On the other hand if that train can be moved to the yard safely i'm sure it could be moved at a reasonable speed if thats your implication?
Sunday Night/ Monday AM (6/27-28/1999) on the Lex there was a G.O. closing the express tracks Southbound. A T O reported gap fillers stuck at 14th Street Union Square. A TSS was sent to manually operate the gap fillers and control ordered the G.O. terminated in case they needed to use the express track. Oh, yes- at the saem time a Northbound developed door problems at 33rd and backed up the line past Astor Place (My station till 7/11/1999). I monitored control on the sacnner in the booth and they did their best to expedite handling of this potentially crippling difficulty.
Transit is made up of HUMAN BEINGS- control is not divine or satanic and neither are the employees on the road or the rolling stock. Sure- it would be nice to have every car less than 6 months old but that will never happen!
As HUMAN BEINGS, errors unfortunately will happen.
On a LIRR position light signal next to the tower at Patchogue, a flashing red light has been added. Anyone know what this light is for?
The CTA is having a contest starting July 15 that has a grand prize of a trip to St. Thomas Island.
It involves the number of the back of your transit card. Go to their site for all the details:
www.yourcta.com
When have you ever before seen a public transit agency do something like this???
Only four words come to my mind: Keep increased ridership going.
BJ
terrific!
Hi all-- especially those of you in the Bay Area. I know there are some SF experts here.
On my next visit to SF I'd like to try and catch the PCC "F-Market" cars for early morning photo opportunities on their way from the Geneva Barn out to Market St. I think they use the J-Church for this.
It doesn't seem like one can get to Mission Dolores from the Wharf any earlier than 6:35, but by then all but one or two of the PCC's would have gotten to Castro (according to the F line schedule only 5 cars leave from Geneva as J cars-- do the rest travel light? There *has* to be more than 5 cars on the F-Market, right?). Any other ways I don't know about?
-> 5:54 am - Get the first 42 downtown loop bus and take it to Van Ness & Market
-> 6:11 am - Arrive Van Ness & Market
-> 6:18 am - A "J-Church" is scheduled to leave Embarcadero outbound. Probably would get to Van Ness around 6:25.
-> 6:35 am - Get off around Mission Dolores Park or at the south end of the J-Church PRW at 22nd St. See last two PCC's pass by.
-Dave
David, If you insist on staying out there, fine, but get a cab to either Civic Center or Powell Bart. Take BART out to Glen Park. When you come through fare control make a left up the stairs and turn left along the station. Cross the street to the bridge over the J and San Jose Ave divided highway. Descend to the far-Inbound Platform. The F's will pass here. I will enquire of a MUNI opr as to total cars in AM rush, although I believe it is 8. BTW feel free to e-mail me directly for home phone for contact while you are out here. Enjoy.
You know, in the time I've lived here, I've never thought to go see the PCC's come through the park in the morning; that must be a nice sight.
Now- BART is definitely the easiest way to see the PCC's come down the J, but I am guessing that the you wanted to photograph them coming down the Dolores Park PRW because it is so scenic; the Bernal Cut area (by the glen part BART) is not the same.
If you want to get to Dolores Park from Fisherman's Wharf area (correct?) before ~5:30 am, you will have to walk about four blocks no matter what-
Route 1:
Take the 91 Owl (goes along Chestnut, Van Ness, North Point, Columbus, scheduled at 4:48 at Chestnut & Van Ness) to Market & 4th. Catch the first scheduled K or L at the Powell St station at ~5:00. Get off at Church St station & walk 4 blocks south on church.
Route 2:
Take the 91 Owl (goes along Chestnut, Van Ness, North Point, Columbus, scheduled at 4:48 at Chestnut & Van Ness) to Mission & 4th. Take the outbound 14 Mission trolleybus to 18th St, walk 4 blocks west on 18th.
Route 1 is more fun 'cause it invoves rails; route 2 may be more reliable since the 14 will have already been running all night.
I hope the pictures come out well!
P.s.- The main reason for the extension of the J to the carbarn was to facilitate moves such as this!
Now- BART is definitely the easiest way to see the PCC's come down
the J, but I am guessing that the you wanted to photograph them
coming down the Dolores Park PRW because it is so scenic; the Bernal
Cut area (by the glen part BART) is not the same.
Obviously I was unclear. I meant to suggest a faster route to the J hoping that Dave could catch a J at Glen Park to get to the prw between 23rd and 18th. The prw in the Bernal cut has some charm of its own though.
Right you are! Sorry Dave & David for shooting my mouth off...
No apologies necessary, I took no offense. Mostly was looking for a good solution. A word to the wise David P., Muni schedule adherence is somewhat lower than ethics in politics. Visit the RescurMuni.org site for further info. In any case, have a good time when you are out here, and try to save some time for visiting the 'Mint' division where you might encounter Market Street Railway persons.
David--The Bernal Cut segment is perhpas the longest outdoor, right-of-way run on the system between stops (Glen Park BART inbound to San Jose/Randall). Perhaps the overpasses above the Bernal Cut at Ronakoe, Mateo or Richland could provide good vantage points. You can email me for more info at GeorgeDev@AOL.com
Thanks for the responses. The owl bus to the 14-Mission sounds like the best solution. You'll see the results on the site after my trip (not till August).
-Dave
Have a great trip!! Well, actually Damian's suggestion of his Option #1 with the following change would work, take the 91 OWL to Market & 4th Sts, then get into MUNI METRO and take the first OUTBOUND "J" car to the PRW, you can get off at 18th, 20th, 22nd/Hill Sts. But this way you are THERE! Right now 5:30 is very light out; by August it won't be as light, but it will still be sorta sunrisey (I start work at 6 AM, so I'm familiar with the light patterns). Keep in mind though that although the schedule that is posted doesn't indicate it, the additional cars that charge the system in the A.M. rush are removed for the midday period, added again for the P.M. rush, and removed afterward. You can see some PCC's going out the "J" every evening about 5:15 P.M. These are marked: F MARKET Balboa Pk as they must complete the "F" route to 17th & Noe then follow 17th to Church to rejoin the "J" line at that point.
The additional (3?) cars that were added were done when METRO was having gross problems with the teething of the ALCATEL ATC; when MUNI announced they were going to remove then, the public outcry was deafening; and they decided to keep 'em.
WHEN are you coming in August?
Thanks for the additional info-- I'm coming out on 8/4 and leaving on 8/8. So I have 3 full days (Thursday Friday Saturday).
Some of the PCC's sometimes run light from Geneva/San Jose to Castro via the Twin Peaks Tunnel and then exit the subway at Eurkea Street. I have seen many of them deadheading along the M line near Stonestown and on the K along Ocean Avenue in the early morning/late evening hours.
This was true for a while, but now that they are in FULL ATC mode from West Portal to Embarcadero, MUNI does not want non-ATC equipped cars in the tunnel, as this REALLY screws up the works - it was part of the problem originally when the ATC first turned up fully. Also a key and moved fence is necessary to get out of the tunnel at Eureka, and although there is a connection between the inbound tracks from the tunnel and the track that turns and enters Market at 17th and Castro, the PCC will be BACKWARD unless it runs to 17th and Noe, then reverses into Noe, then pulls forward into 17th. MUCH simpler just to run up San Jose, 30th, Church; which is the way they charge the system. Sometimes for special occasions they will run a PCC via Taraval out to the Zoo - perhaps an excursion run.
I rode the Forest Park branch of the Blue Line today (6/27) and was amazed at how fast the trains were traveling.
I haven't ridden it in a few months and it has really changed.
The trains wen't full speed of 55 between every station. The only time we slowed down was in the tunnel near Lasalle (which all trains have to) and the crossover between Austin & Cicero.
The CTA is really trying to improve it's image and this can only help.
They finally realized that if you speed up trains and have no delays, passengers will ride again. And what a great time to do this during the Taste of Chicago.
The only thing was comming back (from the Cubs Game) on the Forest Park Line, the train was very shakey and noisy. Going there wasn't excatley quite, but a little bit better.
BJ
PS: The security dogs are really cool.
Now if they could only quiet things down just a tad in the State St. subway...
Hello again, lovers of all thing on rails. Question: Has anyone heard of a rumor that they may be extending the Metro North Harlem line past Dover Plains? I know there is miles of track north of Dover, but no more stations. If this rumor is true, it would be great! They should lay rail everywhere!!!
Yes. Supposed to go to the next town up. Wassaic.
In addition to the Wassaic extension, work on which I believe is currently in progress, Metro North also owns the old Maybrook line that runs from the now-disused Poughkeepsie Bridge to Danbury. Eventually, the line could be reopened for service that would connect the Hudson, Harlem and New Haven (via Danbury) lines. As far as I know there are no plans in the works, but Metro North is holding onto the line (thereby protecting the right of way), just in case.
I believe that it would be very difficult for the Maybrook line to connect to the Hudson line. Metro North may own the right of way, but many, many of the line's bridges have been removed to resolve clearance problems (13' 9" trucks could not pass under quite a few of them) and there would also be the issue of a connection in Poughkeepsie - the bridge is well over 100' above the Hudson line tracks and at approximately a right angle to them so significant right-of-way acquisition would be necessary to drop the Maybrook line to the Hudson line's grade - right-of-way that would be difficult if not impossible to obtain.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Someone remarked here in the last few months that escalator technology seemed beyond the capabilities of the TA. Yesterday, I found someone who makes the TA's grasp of this archane art seem perfect by comparison: the operators of the SI Ferry terminal at Whitehall Street. Of the two escalators there, one is being overhalled; the other is broken. Of course, when you do trudge up the stairs, you find no A/C, but plenty of bums stretched out on the benches. I thought I was back in the subway. Coincidentally, while in SI, I read an Advance article in which the person in charge of the terminal asserted that the escalators are in wonderful shape. One wonders if he has ever been to the terminal. Perhaps he has one of those famous no-show political jobs. The place is a pit, and his desk should be relocated to the center of the waiting room until he does something about it. The only part of the terminal that has A/C is the office.
And those air conditioners exhuast right into the already overheated terminal, at least on the Staten Island side. The funny thing about the advance article was the accompanying photo, which was captioned that people are forced to walk down the stairs. Even when working, those escalators only go UP.
As for the spokespersons 90%+ rate of 'functioning' he's clearly never been in the terminal. Ever.
And let's not forget that the Manhattan terminal burned down in 1991, and a replacement was promised by 1993.
-Hank
Yes, and even worse than the subway escalators is the TA's attitude!!!
I have been calling Olga Rodrigo (the Station Manager at Court Street in Brooklyn) for months trying to get them to fix the escalators. She has never once answered the phone, nor has she returned my calls.
Is it that the TA doesn't give a S**T about riders??? If so, why do they waste money on even having a telephone for people like Olga Rodrigo. Or is it that the TA workers are too incompetent to answer the phone or to set up a system where they might hear the conscerns of their customers???
Things were as they are supposed to be (sortof) this morning. On my way to work, I went to board an N/R at Whitehall St. What comes through the tunnel? A Q of Slant 40s.
The conductor announced (several times, and quite clearly) what the problem was, and your travel options (there was a switching problem @ Rockerfeller Center). We went express from Canal St to 57/7, then via 63st to Queens. Coming back, the train went to 6th Ave (I got off at Lex/63)
-Hank
-Hank
What fun!
And just how fast was the express run along Broadway?
Not bloody fast enough! I was the N train behind it and no one wanted to ride that silly Q. And all they could ask me was, " Is this really an N? Will it stop at 42nd St?"
Would you folks like to convince your fellow customers that with only 2 exceptions, ALL trains stop at 42nd St? Please?
Ignorance. You gotta love it. All you can say is yes, this train will stop at 42nd, but inside, you just want to say duh!!! Believe me, I would have been on that Q before the doors had fully opened, drooling at the prospect of the green-over-yellow aspect before Prince St. And away we go!
P. S. I wonder what the good folks at DeKalb were thinking, seeing that Q train pull in on the tunnel track instead of the bridge track. What the...? How in the...? I'll bet that conductor had to be exasperated at the end of the run.
How about all those signs on the Express platforms along Broadway? 'All service on opposite track.'
-Hank
Maybe they should change the signs to "Emergency Reroutes Only". The same thing happened in the fall of 1991 when an N pulled in on the uptown express track at Union Square. No announcements, either. I got on double quick, even though it was a train of R-68s, and as we zipped along, there were locals backed up all along the line.
Did you ever watch how many people look down those tracks for the next train?
It's amazing to see how people react when a train is re-routed away from it's original line. First thing they do is wait for an announcement on what's going on. Then, if the announcement is garbled or non-existant, or too complicated for the simple minded among us, they stand, hold the doors open, and hold the entire train until they finally understand what's going on, like the train is their personal taxi. One of the funniest things I saw recently was on a Q when it arrived at Prospect Pk. For some reason, there were delays on the D and they were gonna run this Q local all the way to Brighton Beach. One woman got on, held the door and asked if this was a D train. I, being an ex-Boy Scout did my duty and explained that this was a Q train but was going local, and would let her out at her stop (Ave. M). She then got off, saying that the Q doesn't stop at Ave. M. I tried to explain that this train would, but she acted like I was mistaken. "Young man, the Q is an express, and I need a D for a local stop." were her exact words. I assumed she got home really late that evening. LOL.
I feel sorry for conductors when this happens, being besieged by passengers who lose their minds if the trains don't operate exactly as they should.
It is better than in DC. Here, one train gets stuck, the whole line is backed up. In NY, there are alternate routes so the trains can get around the stuck one (i. e. 2 train stuck at 72 and B'way. Run 2 on the 5 route to Franklin)
Actually, they'll run them local around the stuck train. Of the 2 was stuck at Chambers, THEN they'd run on the 5.
-Hank
I should have remembered that is what they did to me once. A 2 and 3 both were stuck at 14th on the uptown express so we took the local track from Chambers to 34th. From their expressions, the people on the local platforms were wondering why on earth the 2 was going through the local stations.
An excellent point. Having three or four tracks on a given line does provide operational flexibility. That goes for interconnecting points along the way, such as the South Ferry loop and the way the IND was built. The 63rd St. tunnel has already proven to be worth its weight in gold in this regard.
I was thrown a curve back in October of 1988 on the 8th Ave. line. I had gone to B&H Photo (before they moved to their present location) to buy a wideangle lens, and was waiting for an A train at 14th St. when a B train pulled in. Huh? What the...? Someone noticed my expression and explained that a building had collapsed in the vicinity of 6th Ave. and 23rd St., and all 6th Ave. service was running via 8th Ave. No announcements were made. Not by the conductor, anyway.
People just plain don't listen to announcements.
"I feel sorry for conductors when this happens, being besieged by passengers who lose their minds if the trains don't operate
exactly as they should."
I don't because some conductors fail to make proper announcements. One time I was at Grand Street, and a northbound R train arrived in the station. Now I knew this train will end up running on the F line into Queens. All the conductor said was, "The next stop is Broadway-Lafayette St. Stand clear of the closing doors please." While on the train, people were obviously lost. One asked me if the train stops at 57 Street, and I told him he would have to get off at 34th and transfer to an uptown train on the Broadway line. If the conductor would have made an announcement between stations saying something like this, "This is a rerouted R-train running on the 6th Ave-F line, making all F-stops into Queens. For service on the Broadway line, please stay on this train to 34th street where you may transfer for N and R service running on the Broadway line," then there would be less confused passengers.
And then there are the conductors who actually make correct announcements, but speak so far away from the microphone that it is often inaudible. I especially notice that in some conductors in the R-46's where they like to speak over 1 foot away from the mic. Conductors in the R-32's have less of a tendency to do that because of where the mic is placed. Is there a rule saying how far or close a conductor should speak into a mic?
Well, the problem is, too close, and it's REALLY garbled, too far, and it's barely audible. About 6" should be ok.
-Hank
It doesn't make a difference if we make the announcements you suggested or not (and I speak as one who ALWAYS make those announcements you want). People like you know what the train will do and will ride it as far as they can. The lost-looking people who are not tourists will be confused no matter what I tell them or how I tell them or when I tell them. The lost-looking tourists will almost always do what I tell them and say Thank You, too.
Why did they change it in the first place???
John
A married pair, or living together as an arrangement of convenience?
Seen on the southbound E this morning: 2d south pair, 3418 & 3863. A collision, renumbering, or what?
Thanks for the reply.
Once again, here's the scoop on the "Mutts" you referred to, which I fondly call the "ODD COUPLES":
There are a total of 25 Odd Couples. Most of these mismatchings resulted from the General Overhaul (GOH) taking longer to complete on one unit in the pair than the other. One resulted from a pair of wrecks. Another has resulted from a third rail fire that damaged the two cars in the 53rd Street Tunnel (a grating had fallen from a ventilation shaft to the tracks below and was run over by an "E" train, with resulting pyrotechnics and fire)
MISMATCHED R32s ("Odd Couples") with appropriate footnotes:
In order by even-numbered ("husband") unit number.
3348 - 3549 (note A)
3382 - 3831
3418 - 3863
3420 - 3645
3444 - 3777
3468 - 3445
3470 - 3919
3502 - 3905
3520 - 3891
3530 - 3741
3548 - 3593
3558 - 3421
3592 - 3469
3600 - 3503
3628 - 3669 (note B)
3644 - 3621
3650 - 3767
3658 - 3471
3740 - 3419
3776 - 3617
3830 - 3531
3862 - 3521
3890 - 3383
3904 - 3559 (note C)
3918 - 3601
Note A - 3348 originally numbered 3659, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit
Note B - 3669 originally numbered 3668, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit; original 3669 wrecked 12-01-74; 3629 wrecked 5-71.
Note C - Both units out of service with fire and undercarriage damage.
Will be paired if and when repairs are completed.
Wayne
Perhaps a correction on your Note C.
First: This was the pairing before the fire in the 53rd St. tunnel.
Second: The fire damage on both cars has been completely repaired. Unfortunately 'some' parts were removed while the cars were in Coney Island. Jamaica Shop will not accept the cars in their present condition...
As of 2 weeks ago, both cars were inside the CI Main Shop on their own trucks and mated together.
Anybody got a handkerchief? I love these happy endings.
Long live the R-32s! Now, if they only had legible signs up front...
Once again, the Supe comes through in Spades.
Thank you Steve, for your information and I will make the necessary amendment.
Wayne
Good stuff, Wayne. Thank you. I did not realize there were so many of these "odd couples" out there.
Regards,
Charles
The BMT Culver timeline says that thru service to Coney Island started
in 1900. What route did it follow---the same timeline gives later dates for Culver construction from 9th Ave to Kings Highway.
The Culver El was built over a steam railroad called the Prospect Park and Coney Island Railroad. It was this line that 5th Ave. El trains used for access to Coney Island. IIRC, specially equipped cars with trolley poles for power were used along all the surface routes to CI before today's els were built to replace them.
Went for a small fantrip this past Sunday on the 100, and it was
fairly interesting. I didn't have my G. Williams book with me :( but
was still able to see some neat things. :) (That viaduct over the
Schuykyll is really nice!)
I was kinda surprised about the fleet, though. It was bumpier than I
imagined. And the operator had some trouble on my first run - they
overshot one station completely and had to switch ends to back the
train up, and then they overshot the next station as well. (That time
the rear door was on the platform, so no backing up up was necessary
there.)
And how did they run those Liberty Liners? Did only the front doors
open? Tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny stations! (And were any
preserved? If I recall, they all went to the scrap heap.)
-Lee
Both of the Libertyliners are alive and well - one set has been restored into its original configuration as an Electroliner at the Illinois Railway Museum in Union, Illinois and the other set is still in Libertyliner form at the Rockhill Trolley Museum in Rockhill Furnace, Pennsylvania.
Until next time....
Anon_e_mouse
I saw the one at Union, IL three years ago. It looks terrific!
Friends just got back from their second trip in two years - I'm incredibly jealous (and anxious to see the pictures when they come over this weekend)! I rode them both when they were in service on the North Shore, during the last couple of years they were running there - nothing finer. When I went to Rockhill Furnace in 1993 and saw the sad state of the one there, I was quite distressed. I understand that they have done some work on that one since then as well, so perhaps it will be restored someday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rockhill has done some nice work on its 'Liner, if you can excuse the addition of trolley poles (they just don't look right, even though I know they originally had them - my memories of them are as Liberty, not Electro, Liners). The Bullet looks very strange with trolley poles.
In response to Lee's question, the addition of the Liners to the P & W fleet required platform extensions. At many stations these can be seen today as the short, narrow platforms to either end of the sheltered area. Some stops (Wynnewood Road, Bryn Mawr, the former Norristown) were sufficiently long that no extension was necessary. Even at 69th Street, the Liners were relegated to certain tracks where platforms were lengthened for them.
The 100 probably has the highest percentage of preserved cars of any line other than the Denver & South Platte (All time fleet 2 cars - 2 preserved). Most of the Bullets (one burned?) and all of the Straffords remaining at the end went to various museums. The present equipment has the least asthetic appearance of anything I've seen. An R-40 Slant has a streamlined appearance and looks ok without all the safety hardware. The slant nose of the Norristown car is just plain UGLY!
Not to mention those black windowshades that keep us railfanners down
on our haunches to see under them out the front. :(
Denver's LRVs have those shades as well, although you can see through them to an extent. I'll say this much: even though they have full-width operator's cabs, the access door to each cab has a decent window so you can see out the front window. The operators don't mind if you look.
One slight correction from my previous light rail post: Denver's LRVs have four sets of doors per side. The doors at the ends can be isolated. Typically, the ones closest to the operator's end are opened only if a handicapped person needs to board. There are foldaway hinged covers which are lowered in place over the doorway steps by the operator at the start of a run. The hinged front portion can be lowered onto the wheelchair ramp after that door set has been opened.
Not to change the subject, but not only are the N-5's ugly, they are rough riders also. And, for those of you who have complained about the dirty LIRR trains, take a ride on the N-5's. These have got to be the filthiest things on rails. You would think they served breakfast on these cars judging from all the coffee cups, soda bottles, etc that you'll find on the floors. An absolute disgrace!
What happened to the CTA cars and Almond Joys that were briefly used?
Allegedly one set of CTA cars was saved for work train service. The others were sold.
Five Budds were converted for the service. To the best of my knowledge only one made it back to the El after they were "retired" from the NHSL. The others were all scrapped.
There was a railway magazine which did an article in 1991 on the restoration of IRM's Electroliner. This article also chronicled the last revenue trip on that train. Its exterior looks like new; I didn't see the interior. Maybe someday I'll make it out to Union when the Electroliner is running on the mainline, or at least when Green Hornet #4391 is running on the loop track. They did have matchbox #1374 on the loop when I was there.
I still lament the fact I'm too young to remember streetcars in Chicago. I was all of a year and a half old when car 7213 made the last run on June 21, 1958.
Boston/MBTA's Green Line, which is a streetcar/trolley/light rail line, has a unique signal system. The description below of its aspects and indications is paraphrased from the Rules for Operators and Other Employees of the Light Rail Lines. Wayside signals are used in the central subway (westerly portals to Haymarket), as well as on the Lechmere viaduct between Haymarket and Lechmere, and on the entire D/Riverside line (Highland Branch) which runs on private right-of-way. Wayside signals are not used west of the portals on the B/Boston College, C/Cleveland Circle, and E/Heath St. lines, which have street or central reservation trackage.
1. Automatic Block Signals
RED - STOP. Proceed after one (1) minute at restricted speed. (Proceed, prepared to stop short of a train, car, or other obstruction and watch for broken rail or switch not properly lined, not exceeding ten (10) miles per hour to the next signal.) [Typically means that the next block is occupied.]
YELLOW - Proceed prepared to stop at the next signal. [Typically means that there is one clear block ahead, but the following block is occupied.]
GREEN - Proceed at authorized speed. [Typically means that there are at least two clear blocks ahead.]
2. Interlockings and Stations
RED over RED - STOP and STAY. This aspect is usually found protecting interlockings, and is the equivalent of NYC's home signal. Only an "authorized person" (Inspector or higher grade) may hand flag a car through this aspect.
YELLOW over YELLOW - COME TO A COMPLETE STOP. Then proceed at restricted speed. [Typically found at the entrance to a station, and it means that the station is occupied by the proceeding car. This was added as a safety measure some years ago following a rear-end collision; multiple cars have always been able to enter stations but this aspect adds an additional mandatory stop when the station is occupied.]
VERTICAL YELLOW ARROW - Proceed on through route. [This is the equivalent of NYC's home signal indication to take the main route.]
LEFT (or RIGHT) YELLOW ARROW - Proceed on diverging route to the left (or right). [This is the equivalent of NYC's home signal indication to take the diverging route.]
3. Mattapan High Speed Line
The Light Rail Division also operates the Mattapan High Speed Line, which is an all-PCC operation. On public maps, it appears as an extension of the Red Line, however its operations are governed by Green Line rules. This line uses two additional signal aspects:
FLASHING RED - STOP. Then proceed with caution.
FLASHING YELLOW - Proceed at reduced speed, prepared to stop.
4. Notes
There are no trippers (stop arms) on the system; operators are responsible for keeping their cars under control and obeying all signals.
Repeater signals are used when line-of-sight is poor.
I saw part of "Coming to America" on Saturday. That's the Eddie Murphy comedy in which he plays a prince and comes to New York in search of a wife. The subway sequence is relatively brief; it's set on the IND Queens line, and it features a four-car train of R-38s. I spotted one car number, 4033. Being pre-GOH units, there was ample evidence of graffiti, the original straps were visible, and the upper destination signs were illuminated. I couldn't make out the station where the scene starts, but it ends at "Sutphin Blvd." Here's where the fun starts: they used every filmmaker's favorite station, Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and even went so far as to apply press-on letters to the wall tiles, because they do have "Sutphin" lettering. The real Sutphin Blvd is a four-track local stop with the same tile band as Van Wyck Blvd. (am I right, Wayne?) while the station in the movie is an island platform station with the unmistakeable light green Hoyt-Schermerhorn tile band (the Archer Ave. line hadn't opened yet). You can also see the "No Clearance" diagonal red bars between two of the tracks at one point. The funny thing is the ride lasts for one stop.
In "The Wrong Man", I observed the scene in which Henry Fonda gets off the train at Roosevelt Ave. R-4 #495 appears to be the second car of the train, and if you look close, the conductor can be seen on his perch to the right of the number plate. Although the conductor can be stationed at any point on the train, it seemed odd to see him between the first and second cars. I don't believe the IND ever ran two-car trains. The compressors can be heard loud and clear.
The Chicago Transit Authority's Blue Line station at Grand and Milwaukee reopened last Friday, June 25, after having been closed since 1992. See the press release on CTA's website:
http://www.yourcta.com/news/ctaandpress.wu?action=displayarticledetail&articleid=117083
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I saw the announcement on the Friday AM news but was busy friday night and did not see if they had any more info. on TV at night.
Did you go to the opening? How does it look after years of neglect and a $1.2 facelift?
Dunno if this has already been brought up..
Anyone know what the cars used in this commercial that's been
getting a lot of airtime over the past couple of weeks?
The cars are redbirds, w/square storm-door windows. I think you can
tell which type of side windows it has, but I don't currently
remember. There is some graphitti inside.
My guess is that this may have been shot on the train that's in CA
from the "Money Train" shooting?
Those are R27/R30 cars, location of the film shoot unknown. You can tell they aren't A/C'd.
Wayne
I thought all R-30 cars were junked. Could it have been one of the few un-A/C'ed R33's on the 7?
Nope. I thought so as well, but by the third time I saw the commercial, I realized why they were'nt. Square windows.
-Hank
Some survive as work motors, instruction cars, etc. and some were shipped out to California to serve as movie stunt cars and sets. I.E. #8408 and #8430 in "Money Train". I wonder if the end of #8408 is still all bent out of shape...
Wayne
The location of the film shoot was......
LOS ANGELES !!!
......using some of the fake R30's that were built to shoot movies such as Die Hard 3: With A Vengeance, Money Train, etc.
One of these days I will try and get some photos of them and give 'em to Dave Pirmann to post for everyone to see. I just HATE driving up to Los Angeles.....
But you'll do it for a good cause, right, Steve?!?!
Thanks in advance from all of us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Problem with going up to LA to shoot the pseudo-subway is that they keep all the stuff indoors (inside the pseudo-subway).
Some of the cars (ones that were wrecked in film production) did go to a rail scrap yard 60 miles east of Los Angeles (in Colton) but that scrap yard usually takes a year and a day to do anything.
I'll try and find some time over the three-day weekend....and will definitely send the results to Dav Pirmann to put up on NYSR for everyone to enjoy, if I get anything worthwhile.
Have any one took the Conductor test last saturday 6/26?? Well the Conductor test that i took it so easy and it took me only one hour to finish my test. Well i have a feeling that i might pass that Conductor test and look like i have to wait 6 months to get my score. Conductor is my dream and hope to be a motorman too.
Peace Out
David "Meaney" Justiniano
Hating to brag, but when I took it back in '93, I was finished in about 30 minutes, scored a 98 and waited 4 years before they hired me.
Took it in the late 80's, got 97.somthing and had a list number of 4987. Got called for bus driver 2 years before conductor (that point it was a combined test). Don't foget the Veteran and Disabled Veteran points that people can get to score 110%
I took the test (Springfield Gardens H.S., Queens) and was done at 11:57, one minute under an hour. It was a no-brainer.
Wayne
Out of curiosity, what kind of questions do they ask on this test?
They had procedural questions (what to do if...), a route-transfer quiz, military time, the timetable, points of interest, accident report, emergency codes (they listed them then asked which one was appropriate), policy on alcohol, stuff like that, not necessarily in that order.
Eighty questions, all multiple choice.
Wayne
I wish I had the opportunity to have taken it. I was chosen by lottery not to take the test. My parents are convinced it's because I'm not a minority. I'm just pissed cause the city took my money and gave me nothing.
-Hank
I'm not a minority either, (well, I am since there aren't that many Whitehornes floating around). I guess I found the luck of the draw.
Wayne
Hank, Relax ! It said in the open competitive announcement that those not selected **will** get a refund of the money paid. When I took the Station Agent open competitive test that was also in that announcement. Keep on trying- maybe next time you will be sleected in the lottery. I also suggest you try Station Agent-- you get your foot in the door and then you can take promotion tests.
I can quote directly from the 'Notice of Examination (9003)':
Processing fee: $10.00 (non-refundable)
And nowhere on the notice do I find anything mentioning refunds.
-Hank
Hey, my last name is very uncommon in the U. S. It's a different story in Lithuania, but it's still not the Smith or Jones variety. I looked in the Kaunas phone directory last summer when I was there, and there were a ton of listings with our name. Granted, I have 20 first cousins over there, but they're scattered throughout the country.
Tell you parents to relax. A friend of mine was also chosen not to take the exam and he does belong to a minority group.
David, good luck. I just hope that grammar doesn't count!
I took the Conductors test at Steward Park pritty Easy but Tricky. Mostly on the Question how to deal with Customers. I was couched alittle bit by Conductors,Train Operators and Train Service Supervisers. I was told if I fail not to show up at the IRT terminals anymore. But anyway I sayed for 3 Hours to make sure I didn't mess up. The thing they were looking for in handdleing Customers was the most Polite answer as possible.
Good Luck to all!
I took Conductor test at Evander Childs H.S. at the Bronx and there a lot of people waiting to get in to take the test.
Are line were mild for the 4PM Exam. 1 Person actully withdrawed when they got into the School. Well thats good for those of us who really want the Job. My dad was on line with me and started to talk about Horror storys about the Conductors job. But theres more PRO'S then Con's. Such as we can always move up as Long as you don't take off more then half your sick time.
I took it in the morning at 10am
We had about 700 or so at Springfield Gardens HS for the 10AM round.
I took the test in a Math room, and was reminded of all my middle school Algebra and whatnot with all the theorems plastered on the walls. The Pythagorean theorem (a2 + b2 = c2) comes in handy for figuring out the correct size of triangular pieces of tile.
Wayne
Don't forget the square root sign.
Or the Square Root key on my good old Casio solar :o)
Wayne
on the last promotion to conductor test I scored 97.5 and ranked Number 1
the promotion to train operator from Jan 98' which only 32 people passed, scored 81 and my list number is 5 and started school car in February and have been on the road as a motorman for 30 days..
took mines on the Sabbath observer. I finished in about an hour.
took mine on the Sabbath observer. I finished in about an hour.
I just started making a page about BART. Right now it's just some pictures of a few stations, but I'll be adding more stuff. If you want to see it, it's at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Veranda/2359/
Very nice, promising web site.
Looking forward to lots more pictures. Keep up the good work, Nate!
How can trains on elevated trackage take power from the third rail in the pouring rain? Is the 3rd rail grounded or is it insulated in some way?
It doesn't matter if the third rail is wet, as long as the water
isn't standing so high that it contacts the bottom of the third
rail. There is probably some leakage to ground through running
water that touches the rail and then touches ground, but it is
small enough not to matter. OTOH, take a more ionic liquid
with higher conductivity and give it a retunr path to ground
through the human body and bad things can happen.
Thanks for explaining that to me.
Chris (and anyone else) - if you ever want to see a SPECTACULAR display of water / power intereaction - watch trains going through either Stamford or New Haven during an ice storm! Watching 13kv arc around the overhead lines and around the pantograph as train hits an ice patch is amazing. It's like a giant flash bulb going off really quickly. I've seen trains do it for 50 or so feet. Oh yeah, and the pantograph tewst at New Haven is always cool, more so on drizzly nights.
Third rail iceing is neat too, I once remember seeing (and hearing!) and express go through Mineola on a nice icy day.
I have been on trains at night in Boston where the arcing was bright enough to light up the surrounding area (and the car lights were dim or out as the car became totally isolated) That's why those cover boards over the 3rd rail are good, they help prevent icing!
Not to mention preventing scoring the third rail,the Myrtle ave el had to re place most of the 3 rd rail in the 60's due to pitting for lack of a cover,the falling sparks onto the street were awsome at night........
In Chicago, as well as Boston, there is NO coverboard. The only time this really presents a problem is during ice storms. Fine mist at just freezing is a real problem. Over the years the CTA has spent money on "third rail warmers" in crucial places such as grades and interlockings. This has help a great deal.
So to answer the original question - no there normal rain does not present a problem.
Keep in mind the most of the CTA rapid transit is on the surface, in the median strip, or on the elevated structure or embankment.
Talk about a light show. Watch two, trains pull away from Belmont Station at the same time, or watch a Red Line come through on the inside (express) track while you're standing at Wellington station.
One thing about the sparks, you can alway tell when the operator is taking power, that is when the third rail shoes and contact rail really put on a show!
Jim K.
Chicago
Mr.K, as a good freind of mine I have told you not once but a thousand times, we are MOTORMEN not operators!! There is absoutly no excuse for Chicago not to have a covered third rail. If we did, Shirley Cartwright would probably still be alive.
Doesn't the truck design impede on that?
-Hank
Hank –
That is a VERY good point that Mr. Proud doesn’t seem to understand. Not only would the CTA have to pay millions of dollars to cover the third rail, but also, they would have to spend many, many millions to re-design the third rail assembly on the trucks.
This is all money that the CTA simply does not have. Realistically, there are things that are nice to have, and then there is practicality. Covering third rail, when 100 year old structures are crumbling, doesn't take too much thought about priorites.
Jim K.
Chicago
Does Chicago still use gravity third rail shoes? Boston uses the flapper type but has never covered the third rail. We also have two different third rail cross sections, a standard 85# type, and a squat 150# variety found only on the Red Line. The 150# variety is more prone to icing as it has a wider shoe contact surface. Heaters are located less than one (four car) train length apart on this type of rail.
The shoes are gravity shoes. They use heaters but I do not know how often they are placed.
I think there are a couple types of 3rd rail in use.
What is the story about Shirley Cartwright?
Another question: does the arcing eat away the third rail or pickup shoe, or caternary/pantograph? I would think this would be a real problem in chicago...
Dear Mr. Proud –
This is in answer to your 1001st plea to be referred to as a MOTORMAN.
Let me remind you, there is a difference between what we would like to have and what is correct. I agree that the term MOTORMAN is reminiscent of the better days on the ‘L’; however that was yesterday and this is today. The term OPERATOR is the official term used by the CTA to describe the person who operates the trains. As I try to be correct as often as possible I will continue to use the term when writing posts on SubTalk.
Jim K.
Chicago
The normal terminology used is Motorman (or Motorperson) describes someone who operates the equipment but a Conductor is in charge. An Operator is in charge, whether or not there is another employee aboard. Since NY has OPTO on some lines, then the term operator is appropriate. If Chicago also operates one man trains (I avoid any discussion containing the letters OPTO in the header) then their use of the term is appropriate.
Mr. K, show me a transt dictionary. Until then I was a MOTORMAN yesterday, MOTORMAN today. and will always be a MOTORMAN.
According to an MTA ad in today's Daily News, the N train for the next few nights (starting 12:01 AM 6/29) and again next week will have no southbound service between 34th St. and DeKalb Ave. Northbound service is apparently unaffected. So what will the southbound N trains do after discharging their passengers at 34th St? Just run empty to DeKalb and start picking up passengers again? What sense does that make? Or maybe run light to Queens Plaza, then down 6th Ave. to DeKalb?
They'll probably be running a split service. Trains from Brooklyn will run Northbound on the N to Queensbridge, and then southbound via the B line to Dekalb Ave. Service from Queens will turn at 34st. Transfer between the two at 34st.
-Hank
But northbound N service is supposed to be unaffected - trains run the full normal route from Coney Island to Astoria. So where do the southbound N's go after discharging at 34th, and how do they re-appear at DeKalb?
One possibility that occurs to me now - I suspect this is likely what is happening - is that the empty southbound N's will reverse direction at 34th St. and follow the route of the recent 63rd St. shuttle up the northbound express track to 63rd St./Lexington Ave., where it will reverse direction again and follow the route of the Q train to DeKalb Ave., at which point passengers will be allowed back on.
I think my earlier assumption is more likely. But reading the information on the service interupption, there will be no service on the Broadway BMT between Dekalb Ave and 34st, in either direction.
-Hank
Dear Mr. Dan Schwartz:
When the BMT Broadway line is closed, an operator told me that
the N will operate in 2 sections:
(1) Ditmars Blvd-Astoria, Queens to 34th Street-Broadway along it's
normal route.
(2) 21st Street-Queensbridge, Queens to Coney Island, Brooklyn along
the B route in both directions from 21st Street-Queensbridge to
DeKalb Avenue, then resuming it's normal route to Coney Island,
making all stops in Brooklyn. N trains WILL NOT STOP at 23rd Street-
6th Avenue and 14th Street-6th Avenue.
James S. Li
i prefer that evrybody that responds just call me metroJr or john
Thank You and i did all those meeages from 12 am to 1 am ending with this one
my e-mail is metroII@hotmail.com
Thank You and good night.....
wich leads me to this
why does the 4 train go up to pelham bay park late when they are doing the 6 line in manhattan... i am not crazy i have see =n these things
John
Red birds and the silver trains as well
Jhn
Just got back from a quick BMT Southern Division round trip between Pacific St and Coney Island - SB on the N - NB on the B.
What is the purpose of the fencing surrounding the two inner tracks on the N? What is the future use palnned for those two tracks?
Similarly, on the B elevated north of 62d Street similar fencing surrounds the middle track - what's the purpose.
Thanks in advance to anyone who provides an answer.
On the N line they are reconstructing the tracks in the middle. For testing of equipment and as a middle track. On the West End this is so the contractors can do the signal work with a minimum of flagging and slowing of trains. The workmen (on the Sea Beach and West End) don't come near the road trains because of the orange plastic lattice.
Perhaps you've read my rantings about how the "winners" -- those interests who are already ahead in public funding in New York relative to other places -- are mounting big time pressure to get even more, while the losers are not. Somebody seems to be trying to do something about it.
Crains New York Business (www.crainsny.com) is reporting that the Regional Planning Association, the Center for Transportation and Policy Management at NYU, the New York Building Congress, the Real Estate Board of New York, the General Contractors Association, the Transport Workers Union, and the Straphangers have organized to fight for a major transit investment, including the Second Avenue Subway. They have raised $100,000 for advertising.
They want higher fares, tolls and taxes to pay for it (in New York it is illegal to say that spending priorities conflict, so mentioning the high level of Medicaid spending and the unfair regional distribution of other funding is off the table). Crains, representing the business community, is therefore skeptical. Moreover, the did not even include Staten Island and a permanent end to the Manhattan Bridge threat in its plans.
But while the RPA gets little respect where I work, I always note that they are the only friends we got. And the only way transportation gets money is to grab a dedicated funding source off the top, and force the hospitals for fight for the crumbs as other taxes are cut. That's what they did to us. Perhaps they might get the commuter tax put back to pay for the LIRR to GCT -- otherwise, Pataki is going to put a special tax on city residents who DON'T move to the suburbs to pay for it.
Still, I'm glad someone is doing something. I'll write in with data showing how little NYC spends on transportation (and education and recreation) compared with other places. It seems that many people on this page could help as well. Perhaps Dave could offer a web line, or something.
I'd glad somebody's proposing something, but the RPA's reputation probably isn't the best, on account of their history of coming out with grandiose, unrealistic ideas.
On the news, I saw a report to the effect that the GCT-LIRR link more or less got a go and 2nd Avenue got a NO. It was accompanied by an architect's sketch of a design for 2nd Avenue. TOO MUCH! Way too grandiose!
I wonder what money could be saved if they drafted a standard, traditional IND design rather than proposing all this fancy stuff.
Wayne
Maybe the artist who sketched it came from LA, where they feel they need to dazzle commuters to get them intyo the subway?
Actually, if 2nd ave gets built, I'd like to see it dug slightly deeper, to allow nice arched stations, like those few IRT ones in Harlem are like. Really opens up the station and gives it a unique look - I wouldn't be surprised if they are as much, or less to build, since I bet you could do it as a formed concrete arch - like GCT on the #7 has. No, I'm saying we need DC metro style stations here (I personally think they're ugly), but I'm not a huge fan of the collums everywhere style of most NYC subway stations (in manhattan at least)
"... I bet you could do it as a formed concrete arch - like GCT on the #7 has. No, I'm saying we need DC metro style stations here (I personally think they're ugly), but I'm not a huge fan of the collums everywhere style of most NYC subway stations (in manhattan at least)"
Have you ever rode the CTA Blue Line? The two stations (Logan Square and Belmont/Kimball) on the subway tunnel that connects the old Met L to the Kennedy Expressway median line have high (the mezzanines over look the platform) arch roofs and no pillars but have little resemblance to WMATA stations. Unfortunately, because of the high ceilings and the resulting distance of the lights from the platform, they are not as well lit as they could be (like Metrorail stations). But otherwise, they are well-designed stations.
Now that the M-3's on the Market-Frankford Line are almost history,
Does that mean that the Budd Silverliner IIs' days are numbered, since
they are about the same age as the M-3's? Although they are air
conditioned, unlike the M-3's, but they do lack some of the amenities
that the newer commuter trains have, such as a PA system, which the
conductors use to call out the stations, etc.. I hope SEPTA doesn't
plan to get rid of there Budd Silverliner II's anytime soon. I noticed
that at least a couple of them still have "PENNSYLVANIA" above the
windows.
Septa s 5 year plan does state that they will replace those and St. Louis cars within the next few years. With what I dont know. Hopefully more MU cars.
SEPTA is allegedly looking to buy up to 100 new MU cars sometime in the forseeable future to both expand service and to replace the II's and III's. The question arose not too long ago about the possible purchase of NJT's Arrow II's which became surplus but there are equipment and other differences which would have made this technologically difficult.
SEPTA is going to get a couple more push-pull trains supposedly this year (the coaches will have center doors - hooray!) but the problem with these is that the long consists really aren't needed except for the peaks. It's rare to find any train longer than 3 cars in the middays and on weekends, and SEPTA recently went back to single-car trains on a couple of lines for lighter periods.
The II's and III's have their shortcomings and are showing their age, except for the III's reconditioned for Airport service. The last couple of times I was on II's the rides seemed very rough and it wasn't a track fault. The larger problem with the MU's is the lack of doors for loading/unloading in Center City. The IV's came with the punch-out panel in the center but the retrofitting of doors in place of the panels was allegedly too expensive when the time came for the doors to be installed. Current schedules allow 3+ minutes at all 3 downtown stops for loading/unloading, which tends to slow service appreciably.
Do single cars on Septa lines mean that the ballast is in better shape?
I believe I read a while ago that they could not do this because one car might not get good enough contact for the cab signalling. I gather this meant that a lot of the signal was leaking away due to crud in the ballast.
That's not so - AFIK, only the first pickup of the head end car is active when cab signaling is used. The signal is just a pulse transmitted through the rails and picked up inductively (like a tape recorder almost) Remember, it's 40's vintage technology! I know it's so for LIRR cars, because the MP-54s weren't all equipped with cab signals (or cabs for that matter). Only the head end cars of a train had to be. Plus, obviously, if you needeed multiple pickup, diesels wouldn't work (darn! :) Septa does have some pretty bad track though, I remember being on jointed stuff once. Train was bouncing something impressive.
The last Septa stuff I was on was generally good, but could have used an interior makeover.
What *is* a problem, at least for the IIs (MP-85) is that some, if not all of those cars use ignitron rectifiers in their propulsion system. Unless they converted them to SCRs (doubtful), that means they've got cars running on long obsolete traction equipment. I highly doubt GE makes those tubes anymore - they were highly specialized things to begin with. FWIW, the Silverliner II was origionally delievered with a 3 notch controller, but the actual application of power is totally stepless. There's no camshaft, and only 3 taps on the main transformer. Very slick for its time. But, ignitrons are pretty picky things, they won't fire when cold, they'll overheat if not force air cooled, plus, misfires and arcbacks can dammage them. Plus, they are filled with mercury, which is a no no today. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Septa stuff had / has it - The M-2s had them too until Metro-North converted them to SCR, and they were somewhat newer.
I'd hate to see the Silverliners go, I like them, esp the NJT Aroow cars with those nice big diamond pantographs. I hate faviley types, even though they are more compact, and, I believe possibly more stable.
I've heard different stories about why single car trains were banned. SEPTA ran them often up until about '92-'93. The most popular one was that Amtrak feared that signals weren't getting picked up by having only 8 wheels on the tracks. There are very few routings that trains can make on the SEPTA system without stumbling upon Amtrak territory, so (as the story goes) the decision was made to go to 2-car trains minimum.
I was watching "The hidden history of Chicago" Sunday on the History Channel and they had a fascinating, yet way too brief story on the man who built the Chicago "Loop" el system. I think his last names were Jerkies (spelling probably off). Anyone know a website with more info on this guy?
Chris -
It was Charles Tyson Yerkes who was the mover and shaker of the Chicago streetcar and elevated lines.
In Chicago we refer to our elevated as the 'L'.
Also, Graham Garfield has a very detailed history. Try it at:
http://www.nsn.org/graham/
Thanks for the info.
Charles T. Yerkes. As a sidebar, in addition to his
traction activities, the ethcally dubious Mr. Yerkes endowed a major astronomical observatory, now operated by the University of Chicago. See the following link:
http://astro.uchicago.edu/yerkes
Alan "not just a one-subject bore; more like a six-subject bore" Follett
It seems to me that the photo bwayjunc.o1jpg (of the non-revenue flyover from Canarsie line to Broadway line) is a view from, well, I'm not sure. Can anyone tell me where the shot is from, into which direction? I'm assuming that the flyover depicted would be ( on Peter Dougherty's East New York detail) the black line which branches to the right just north of Atlantic Ave ( on the L), then curves left over the East New York yard and joins the Bway line just to the right of Eastern Parkway. Can anyone help?
I'm standing on the northbound "L" line island platform facing east.
The "J" line to Jamaica is in the lower left, and the trackway without track is heading toward Alabama Ave. The train in the picture is non-revenue. (You identified the track correctly-- it is from the northbound "L" to westbound "J").
One more thing, the map is not exactly to scale. The island platform of the "L" extends over the track (or, the track dives under the platform). It is not quite like depicted in the map.
I get it now, Thank You. The explanation about the track diving under the platform clinched it.
For my money, one of the creepier (scary but cool) memories is back, say 1955 - 1956, standing on the Prospect Ave station (4th ave) BEFORE
the advent of the bright headlights so common today, peering into the darkness of the tunnel looking for the Standards to appear, and the first clue you had that a train was arriving was noise of the train and the dim outline of the first car, rocking back and forth---or standing on the High Street station and feeling that rush of air pushed thru as the train sped thru the East River tunnel--------------
CI---Nathans was of course great,(personally, I think those cardboard plates made the difference in the taste) but I also loved the soft custard sold a few doors down----they had pistachio and banana, as well as choc and vanilla
CI---also riding back on the Sea Beach or West End with either chocolate fudge or cashews from one one the stands inside the Stilwell Terminal.
I also liked the hot corn stand across the alley. It was run by Irving(?) Handwerker, Nathan's brother. I always wondered how they got corn that sweet.
Also special was Nathan's clam bar, second only to Lundy's, IMHO. I never had the frog's legs, introduced c.1960. I think everyone scratched their over heads how Nathan's, which didn't readily introduce new items very often, came up with that one! Anyone seen them there any time recently?
Paul!
Thanks for dating the "Frog's Legs". On last year's Nostalgia Trip I wondered when the heck they were added to the menu. It had been 45 years since my previous visit.
I was in C.I. last Saturday for the "Mermaid Parade". The lines at Nathan's were out of hand! See as though the entire Williamsburg Arts community was on the scene. And, yes, frogs legs were on the menu!
OK - when was their "chow mein on a bun" introduced? I know it was before 1974 because my father used to order it quite a bit on our visits there when I was a kid.
--Mark
Even though I've never done so, I'm told that adding sugar to the cooking water will impart sweetness to the corn. Also, I would imagine the longer the corn sits in the water, the sweeter it would get.
The hot dogs at Nathans' CI have a unique taste - found at no other Nathans (well, I've been told in earlier posts that Oceanside comes close). It must be that grease-encrusted grill that they use [hasn't been cleaned since 1935 ;o) ], or maybe it's the salt air.
Wayne
Hey, Wayne, I read in the paper the other day that PBS is going to do a special on the hotdog in American culture. Of course Nathan's Famous will be highlighted, but one thing was mentioned that is in line with your opinion -- according to a Nathan's spokesperson,
the hotdogs at Coney Island indeed have that unique taste due to the salt air! Mystery solved!
Doug aka BMTman
The show was broadcast Wednesday night - I missed it but it was the subject of lunchtime conversation yesterday. Knowing PBS, it'll be rebroadcast dozens of times too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nathan's at Coney Island still uses their traditional franks--full size, natural casing and I think those hot greasy grills are important.
I don't know for a fact that the franchise franks are not the same recipe, but I suspect some of the outlets use smaller skinless or artificial casing franks and they don't heat them hot enough so that they're crackling good. And the prices? Oy!!
Likewise Sabrett's (meant to be boiled, not grilled). You can tell instantly a Sabrett's stand that uses the skinless version.
I think Nathan's handled large crowds better when you had to go to a different part of the counter for each item--franks here, hamburgers there, fries and drinks somewhere else. Even though you had to wait on several lines instead of one, it all seemed to go faster.
This is very subjective, but when I used to buy Nathans franks at Coney Island in a "Frankie Pack" to cook at home, the taste fell well short over the Coney Island over the counter frank. These "take home to cook" franks from Coney Island tasted like the over the counter franks I would get at the Nathans on Hylan Blvd on Staten Island. Amazingly enough, when I eventually bought a "Frankie Pack" on Staten Island, the frank was very, very close in all respects to an "over the counter" Coney frank.
This is very subjective, but when I used to buy Nathans franks at Coney Island in a "Frankie Pack" to cook at home, the taste fell well short of the Coney Island over the counter frank. These "take home to cook" franks from Coney Island tasted like the over the counter franks I would get at the Nathans on Hylan Blvd on Staten Island. Amazingly enough, when I eventually bought a "Frankie Pack" on Staten Island, the frank was very, very close in all respects to an "over the counter" Coney frank.
I don't know about now, but when I bought a "Frankie Pack" maybe 25-30 years ago, they sometimes made it up on the spot, taking the franks from a bin, so it must have been the same franks.
I suspect the evenly hot grill may have something to do with it. You know that when you put food on a grill, or a new batch of food in a deep fryer, it immediately cools the grill/cooking oil down. It might be hard to duplicate at home.
You might be right, even though think I recall the "Frankie Packs" were pre-packaged. (Maybe they ran out of franks sometimes and had to use "Frankie Packs" over the counter.) I wonder how Frankie is doing these days.
I also enjoyed the deli sandwiches at Surf & Stilwell occasionally---
if I recall, the salami and turkey were both pretty good, and the sandwiches were well stuffed.
There was a rather grim article in the WSJ today about the decline of the hot dog. Sales have slumped recently due to reports of bacterial contamination and "foreign matter." Dunno, the Tube Steak is as much an icon as a food item, I'd sure hate to see it fall by the wayside.
I dont think so. One day the naye sayers will tell us food is bad for us- please stop eating food!
I see the frankfurter subject came up again that I started a couple of weeks again with Nathans. I had Nathans franks at the other day. Let the dogs prevail. Must have mustard and saurakraut.
mustard was made for the hot dog! Saurkraut rules!
The ice cream place is Denny's--they still sell Psiatchio and Banana and also a banana-pistachio swirl in addition to the chocolate, vanilla, and chocolate vanilla swirl.
But I remember when there was a Natna's ice cream place with even more flavors
Saw two news items today that made me think of the Second Avenue line and other subway expansion ideas. Neither one dealt directly with the subway, but they both might have some bearing on the prospects for expansion - one good, one bad.
First the bad news. Time Warner has gotten the city to cough up $28 million in tax incentives in return for expanding its presence on Sixth Avenue. One of the city flacks said that this controversial measure was necessary because TW threatened to move some administrative jobs to Atlanta and New Jersey. Why is this bad news for Second Avenue? Well, it seems to me that the line actually would get built - and quickly - if the business community demanded it be done. It goes without saying that better transit would help businesses. Trouble is, the city's big businesses have no incentive to demand indirect benefits like the Second Avenue line when they can demand *direct* benefits like tax breaks and subsidies.
Yet there's some good news. American Airlines has announced plans to spend _$1 billion_ on a new terminal at Kennedy Airport. The Port Authority's given its blessings and construction should start within a couple months. This shows that there's at least some interest in transportation improvements, and that the Port Authority (if not NYCT) is actually interested in the future. We can only hope ...
" This shows that there's at least some interest in
transportation improvements, and that the Port Authority (if not NYCT)
is actually interested in the future. We can only hope ...
"
So, in summary, it would seem that maybe we ought to lobby the
Port Authority to build a 2Ave Spur for PATH...
(Toungue firmly implanted in cheek).
[re new American Airlines terminal]
[So, in summary, it would seem that maybe we ought to lobby the
Port Authority to build a 2Ave Spur for PATH...
(Tongue firmly implanted in cheek).]
Many years ago the Hudson & Manhattan line (PATH's predecessor) actually considered an extension to Astor Place. There was even a small bit of tunnelling, remnants of which can be seen just north of the Ninth Avenue station.
So would the thought of a Second Avenue PATH line be complete fantasy? Probably, but no more so than a regular subway line (sigh).
I was disappaointed that there was no thought of helping with rail access to JFK, which could always still be killed somewhere along the line, just like 42nd St trolley.
How did the New York and Atlantic get its green color
On a recent trip on the New Haven line i noticed that the catensary towers from about New Rochelle to Port Chester are about two track widths wider then the four tracks now in use are these missing tracks the New York Westchester and Boston
[re "missing" tracks between New Rochelle and Port Chester]
Yes, I believe the NYW&B ran right next to the New Haven line in that stretch.
The NYWB was a heavy duty electric railroad built parallel to the NH Main line to siphon off customers. That idea didn't work since the trains ran empty most of the time. How empty? It was not unusual to see a single MU depart from the terminal; which I think was at 133rd Street in the Bronx. What killed it was that NYWB passengers had to transfer to go to Manhattan, NH customers went straight in without having to transfer. Part of the NYWB right of way exists as the Dyre Avenue line of the #5 train.
The NYW&B actually had two lines. One paralleled the New Haven main line as far as Port Chester. The other ran to White Plains, along a route not far from what's now the Hutchinson River Parkway. The Bronx portion of the latter route is now used by the Dyre Avenue subway. Some traces remain in Westchester County, if you know where to look. (Hint: using a county street map, locate Heathcote Bypass along the New Rochelle/Scarsdale line. That street was built along the NYW&B right of way, and by extending it to the north, you can locate a discontinuity in the street pattern, as well as a linear park, that evidences its route to White Plains.)
One of the many reasons the Brooklyn to New Jersey rail tunnel won't pay is that much of the traffic would be bound for New England, and there isn't enough capacity to run it on the New Haven Line without interfering with Metro-North/Amtrak service. If it was still there, the NYW&B could have been used for freight.
Never break up a Right of Way, I say. All it takes is one NIMBY to win in one spot and the whole thing is gone.
[One of the many reasons the Brooklyn to New Jersey rail tunnel won't pay is that much of the traffic would be bound for New England, and there isn't enough capacity to run it on the New Haven Line without interfering with Metro-North/Amtrak service. If it was still there, the NYW&B could have been used for freight.]
Massachusetts accounts for much of New England's freight traffic, and is served fairly well by the current Selkirk routing. Southern Connecticut is the part of New England that would be closest to the proposed freight tunnel. Unfortunately, there's very little freight traffic (or freight-using heavy industry) in the area.
...But there are a lot of consumer goods destined for LI and southern New England coming into the area on intermodal trailers, that are then trucked all over the place, tearing up the roads, etc., etc....
It might be possible to have the Access to the Region's Core project (i.e., the two new tracks from N.J. to Penn Station) handle both passenger and freight traffic, with the freight operating during the overnight hours. There is also enough room from Hell Gate to New Rochelle to add extra tracks if necessary. (The New Haven handled a lot of freight over the Hell Gate in the 1960s.) I'm not sure there would be enough traffic now - or ever - to justify a freight-only tunnel under New York harbor; at least I haven't seen any data yet to back-up that plan.
The NYW&B was originally controlled (and partially financed) by the New Haven. It used 11,000 volts AC to use excess capacity at Cos Cob.
what about making it 1.75 or something to that effect and using the extra $$ besides what is needed for expenses to fuel the capital program. i think i remember hearing that right now there must be another source of funding for capital projects. why? i think many people would be receptive to the idea if it went for what it was supposed to. more $ is desperatly needed
I believe the plan is to raise the fare to $1.75 and fund the LIRR connection to Grand Central, but not the Second Avenue subway. Of course, the Pataki Administration will not discuss these things together, lest some of us think they are linked. After all, every decision is independent of every other decision isn't it? No.
The fare cards have been good for ridership and thats good because it demonstrates that the system can be effective.
Transit riders are not the most vocal group, and certainly not as vocal as the suburban LIRR riders.
Elected officials do not take transit riders seriously but that is a big mistake espicially in a city like NY.
When I worked for a smaller city my boss was having problems with an alderman. He asked the bus drivers to tell the grandma's riding the bus that the alderman X wanted to reduce funding for transit and that they should let him know how they felt about it. Within a week alderman X called my boss to say that he had made his point and would he please pull off the gray panthers.
Most places it is too hard to mobilize the riders though. They are too busy with life to be politicaly active.
[Elected officials do not take transit riders seriously but that is a big mistake espicially in a city like NY. ]
Well, that's NOT the case in my town. Every November you see the politations pressing flesh on the platform. I've even seen them walking down my street & had a brief conversation with the Mayor in front of my house this June.
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone know if the law which created the TA (and, later, the MTA), allows the authorities to use fare revenue for funding construction? Isn't fare income supposed to be used only for operating expenses?
Currently, who actually pays for construction (and from what money source)? In fact, who owns the subway cars and buses? And don't the people of the City (and, presumably, the rest of the State) own the subways?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The MTA does use the fare to pay for TA capital projects -- the past capital plan was funded by bonds backed by the farebox. Pataki had the MTA borrow to the limit so he could cut off state capital assistance. Meanwhile, dedicated tax revenues are used for operating subsidies. Bottom line -- it doesn't matter what things are "used for" -- since money can be shifted between categories.
In theory, the MTA cannot take money from the TA and give it to the LIRR. But lets say that the state decides city subway riders should pay for the LIRR to GCT connection. All it needs to do is cut off operating subsidies to the TA (keeping them for the LIRR), and use the money for the connection instead. The TA would be forced to raise the fare or cut service to make up the difference. That's where this is going.
Unfortunately, when you "regionalize" service you are more likely to get exploitive and irresponsible behavior than efficiency. Any efficiencies and sacrifices in your area (ie. the TWU givebacks and TA cutbacks) can end being sucked up by less responsible parties elsewhere (ie. the LIRR unions and the "loan" to Nassau County). It makes more sense to be "passive aggessive" and worsen your own situation than to be responsible. Lindsey did it in NYC in the 1960s, the rest of the state is doing it to NYC in the 1990s.
So I'd be glad to raise the fare if better service, or capital improvements, resulted. The added revenues, however, are likely to disappear over the city line.
Metrocard and EZ-pass will give the MTA a lot of pricing flexibility that it never had before. One option recently mentioned would be to raise the fare and tolls only during the rush hours when subway and auto commuters have no other choice than to pay up. [The NJ Turnpike Authority has just proposed this, and I am sure that the Garden State Pkwy will soon do the same.] Lowering the transit fare during off-peak times wouldn't really attract many more riders because that's when most people are already at work . Lowering tolls during off-peak might divert some truck traffic to less crowded times of day, but even that is too hopeful because everyone wants goods delivered as early in the day as possible.
A peak fare for the subway will not work. When the peak is nearing an end the customers would wait until the peak is over before entering causing congestion in the fare control areas. Off peak discounts- weekends would work like maybe midnight Friday to 5 am Monday( but only with MetroCard). They did do that some time back when the MetroCard was $1 for the weekend and tokens were $1.25
**opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
I believe that just about every other transit system has peak fares for cash fares. Not sure if this includes the Philly subway, don't know about Boston. It has not caused meltdown in those places. Even if it does, just make the fare drop slowly - a nickel every five minutes until it gets down to the discount level.
The point is that the NY system has little or no extra capacity during peak hours, but it does have capacity off-peak. So if you can encourage new passengers off-peak with a timed discount, that is good. And if you can encourage just a few of those who ride during peak to shift their commute time, that is good too, because it frees up capacity.
SEPTA's Subway, PATCO, MARTA all have no peak/off-peak fares. PATH is also a flat fare with no peak/off-peak.
In Memphis, MATA the bus company also as of 1996 has no discouints for off-peak
Baltimore had rush hour fares around 1978-1981. They were SO unpopular that the MTA removed them on the next fare increase (1982).
WMATA has a constant problem, in that EVERY rush hour (AM & PM) there are knots of people awaiting the end of rush at EVERY station. This is due to the fact that WMATA charges by way of ENTRY, so you have to wait until the rush fares end to enter the system.
Now that "pink collar" workers have been replaced by computers, you'll find that a large share of those riding at traditional rush hours are professionals. Since many stay late, the PM peak is flattening out. Professionals generally have flexible hours; they just prefer not to come in before or after rush hours.
People who work in shops and restaurants, who clean offices, or who work in construction do not work 9 to 5. Those who do could have their hours changed if it meant a raise. As for the professionals, more and more I believe they will work at home, and come to work for meetings. If you have a phone and computer at home and at work, there is really no reason to be in the office until the first meeting of the day. And if you work out in the burbs, and don't have any meetings, you may not come in at all.
All this is good for transit -- more off peak riders, fewer peak hour riders. But you have to provide sufficiently frequent, fast and reliable service off peak to ride the trend. Otherwise, you get more driving.
Except that most people riding at the peak do so because they need to be somewhere at a certain time, like work. So unless employers give their employees flexible schedules, it won't work.
-Hank
Off-Peek Fares are alive and well in Queens, that is if you don't mind riding a bus. They've been called "Shopper's Special" and a few other names ... You say not so on the TA fleet ... that's RIGHT you have to ride one of Rudy's "private" fleet ... plug ... plug
Mr t__:^)
Even if well intentioned, this proposal would mean political suicide for Guiliani in his attempt to become Senator. I don't think this will happen at least until after the NY Senate race.
--Mark
Your idea is fundamentally unsound. As recent experience has shown, lowering the fare increases ridership; raising the fare reduces ridership. The current surplusses are a direct result of the fare being reduced, not increased.
On the other hand, maybe some of us would be willing to pay $2.00 to ride in a half-empty car.
WMATA announced their service plans for July 4 and one line is going to be a shuttle from National Airport to the upper level at Rosslyn. Where on earth is this shuttle going to turn around at Rosslyn without holding up the Orange Line which is not only serving Vienna and New Carrolton but also Addison Road?
Also, how will they run the Shuttle, yellow, and blue lines on the same tracks and the yellow, green, and blue lines on the same tracks. They can't do it at 2 minute intervals without monstrous delays...
And third question is what are they going to do about the signs? As far as I know, the Orange Line has never gone to Addison Road, the Blue line has never gone to U-Street, the Green Line has never gone to Grosvenor and the Shuttle has never existed.
Maybe it will be the "Purple" line - a mix of Red White and Blue. :op
The next crossover up the line is just out of Foggy Bottom-GWU.
Maybe they'll deadhead up there. Hey wait a minute, how the heck can they do all this - they've got the trains computer-programmed!
Wayne
They are still in manual due to relay problems (as of last time I rode). Even if they turn around at Foggy Bottom-GWU, they still hold up the Orange Line. Maybe they'll have two operators on the shuttle like on the S in NY.
And third question is what are they going to do about the signs?
Well, it's amazing what a little coloured poster board and magic markers could do in a flash :)
--Mark
I meant the automatic signs on the sides of the trains.
And Mark is saying that if need be, they could just tape up an appropriate sign on the train. (or put it behind the window). Not such an awful idea, if that's what you need to do. But a bit too much thinking outside the box for Metro :)
Seriously, I think this plan makes sense. As I see it, they will not need many Green line (U street - Anacostia) trains, as the U street end of this line will be covered by the Blue line. So only the three stations south of L'Enfant need to be covered by the Green Line - and only Anacostia should be serving lots of folks returning from fireworks - the other two stations are not in residential areas. So I doubt that one out of every three trains departing southbound from L'Enfant will be Greens- I'd expect it will be one out of every five.
I wonder if WMATA can put trains up in the unopened tunnel under 14th st as storage, so they can run back-to-back trains southbound as soon as the show is over? That would be good resource usage!
On the Va side, most people who ride blue or yellow don't care if it is blue or yellow - they divide way out. So the extra capacity from not going to Rosslyn and back will easily outweigh the few shuttles going down to the Airport. I do wonder what the point of having the shuttles go down to the airport is - I guess it lets them turn around on that extra track down there?
I believe that the most crowded trains would be going out to the Va Orange line, which is generally the most crowded line, no? So they can almost double the capacity going that way. There should be very few Arlington shuttles running (after dark) so it should not clog things up too much. They should bring the shuttles in and out of Rosslyn on the same track. Somehow, that should be possible. This would save the crossing over for the Rosslyn - Pentagon section, where there will be little traffic.
I suppose that July Forth taxes the only-two-track WMATA system quite a bit. (Probable taxes the sytem in Chicago quite a bit too). This seems like a good plan, though. In fact, it makes one wonder why they ever run the blue line on such a roundabout route ever!
And if they cannot reprogram the signs on their trains, someone did not buy a good sign system!!!!
It will be interesting to see how this works.
"I suppose that July Forth taxes the only-two-track WMATA system quite a bit. (Probable taxes the sytem in Chicago quite a bit too)."
The City of Chicago holds its Independence Day concert and fireworks on the night of July 3. It is the high point of Taste of Chicago, a festival (mostly food stands operated by various Chicago restaurants, but also bands, Ferris wheel, etc.) that runs from June 25 to July 5 in Grant Park.
Since the Taste started, the L and Metra trains have been packed! I was downtown (but not at the Taste) on Sunday and the outbound Blue Line train I rode, at about 4:30 in the afternoon, was nearly at crush load. I didn't get a seat until Jefferson Park! The parking lot where I got on the train (Rosemont) is about a quarter to a third full most Sundays, but almost every space was taken this last Sunday. And this isn't even the July 3rd crowd, when approximately ONE MILLION people show up to watch the fireworks display!
Last year, I went down for the fireworks, but I took Metra in the hopes that the trains wouldn't be too crowded. WRONG! The trip in was nearly full, but at least everyone got a seat. But the homebound trip was unbelievable! Sensibly, while Metra adds specials inbound up to about 10:00 (the fireworks begin at 9:30), they throw the timetable out the window for the outbound trains after that point, and run on an "all stops, load and go" basis: as each car fills up, they shut the doors on that car to discourage people from boarding it. When all the doors are shut, the train takes off, making all stops to the end of the line. The only other time Metra uses "all stops, load and go" is on an emergency basis (especially when a blizzard hits during a weekday after everyone has come in to work).
An interesting sidebar is that alcohol is banned on Metra trains only on the day of the St. Patrick's Day Parade (which, because of the Mayor's policy of having all downtown parades on weekends, may not actually be on March 17) and on July 3rd. Last year, there were armed guards on the trains, supplementing the usual conductor and trainmen, and they removed anyone who had open booze containers on the train.
can anyone suggest a power truck for ho subway cars? i was looking for baucman 44's but can not find them. Also the hanging chains on the front by the door if any one can help with that thanks talk to you later!
Campbell Scale Models, among others, produce fine chain in various sizes. Your local hobby shop can order it if they don't stock it. As for power trucks, there are lots of choices, but getting ones that look right will be a challenge. The Bachmann 44-tonners aren't all that rare at the train shows, but I would personally recommend the "Flea" from NorthWest Short Line. (I managed a hobby shop in North Carolina as my "second job" for a number of years and still have an interest in that shop.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
thanks for your help anon e mouse
Check out this web site...
http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/railroad.html
There is a section called Model Sub-Talk that has quite a lot of info on power trucks for HO models.
Bill
Can anyone tell me the total mileage of the Broad St. Subway,including the Ridge Av. spur and the Market-Fkd. line ?
Chuck Greene
I don't have exact figures but here's a close guess. This would be line mileage (not track miles):
Broad St main line - 10.5 miles
Ridge spur - 1.4 miles
Market-Frankford - 12.4 miles
If I can get more precise info I'll send it along.
Thanks, Bob! Are you going on any of the ERA trips over the holidays this weekend? I'm taking the Saturday jaunt on the Norristown, Media, and Sharon Hill lines. I live in Exton so I don't get to ride my favorite transit system unless I take as ride to 69th st. for some fun.
Chuck Greene
I hadn't planned on participating in ERA activities due to other commitments. The one thing I hoped to attend - the banquet (with a former professor of mine and personal friend as the keynote speaker) - I'll unfortunately have to miss. It figures that the one time the convention is this convenient, other things get in the way.
By the way, Big D's mileage on the Broad St subway is a little off. City Hall to Olney is close to 5.6 miles but you have to add the 4+/- miles down to Pattison and the 1/2 +/- mile to Fern Rock. I'm still attempting to get a more accurate number.
Market-Frankford Line:12.8 Miles
Broad Street Line: ~5.6 Miles (Fern Rock to Pattison, not sure of Ridge Ave. Spur)
Peace,
Big D
Thank you Big"D"
Chuck Greene
The Broad Street Subway is alot longer then 5.6 miles it close to about 10 miles in length. When I getexact figures I will post. Ridge Ave not sure. They should bus he line anyway. With a 16 min headway.
I didn't think 5.6 sounded right. An old Septa driver said the "C" bus route from Cheltenham av. to the Navy yard was 13 miles!
I'll check my septa map and use the scale of miles to verify.
Chuck Greene
Scaling the map gives me approx. 11 miles for the Broad st. subway
Chuck Greene
Are the folding guard rails on NYCTA trains a FRA reqirement?
LIRR and MNCRR MU dont have them. Someone could fall in between cars.
I assume that what they are for. Also could they be fold up?
I assume you are speaking of the pantograph gates or ewuivalent which fill the space between the cars. I don't believe they are required by any agency but have been a standard safety practice on subway equipment for years. Boston uses something similar to NYC. Chicago has used large springs hanging between the cars instead but they serve the same purpose.
Are the folding guard rails on NYCTA trains a FRA reqirement?
LIRR and MNCRR MU dont have them. Someone could fall in between cars.
I assume that what they are for.
They are on the outside in between cars. Look like a baby guard gate like the ones used at home to prevent babies from falling down stairs.
Also could they be fold up?
There's no such thing as an FRA requirement on the NYCTA. Those gates, called pantograph gates, are there for at least two reasons. First, to discourage persons from boarding between cars, and second to keep the blind from trying to board where there isn't a door.
The R40 and R42 were delivered without the gates, which were installed later on the A ends only. Springs remain on the B ends. The R44, R46, and R68/68A were also delivered without gates, and have springs on both ends. I remeber seeing an old newspaper article about a fuss being raised when the R40/42 were delivered without the gates.
-Hank
Greetings from Syosset. I just got back from a quick trip to the city on the L I Double R. It appears as though they are building a passing siding on the Main Line between Merillon Avenue and the Herricks Road overpass. The siding is on the south side of the right-of-way, and ties are in place with some rail on the west end (including the turnout to the eastbound rail).
I also saw a "mini bi-level train" laid up east of Jamaica: (W) engine, one coach, control car (E). That was it!
Amazingly, of the four M-1/3 cars I was on, all had air conditioning that was functioning well.
Hello Todd,
I mentioned the siding here about a month ago and was told it'll be used to lay up OB Branch trains. I thought it was the beginning of the 3rd track between Mineola & Hicksville.
The Bi-Levels east of jamaica are there every day. I think that they are for training.
Well, there goes the lie that the OB line was getting direct service to NYC by 1997....
Actually, I thought it was the beginning of a third track too. But, why not start that at Bellrose, instead of squeezing down to two tracks then back up to three? Also - where would they run it through Mineola station? Oh well - Todd - how far have they gotten on that track, last time i saw it, they had just put down a like a dozen ties or so, and the third bridge over the road wasn't built yet.
LAst time I looked, about a week ago, there was a bunch of track laid,
and the switchwork on one side has been done for a while. The
bridge over Herricks road was not yet complete, but the fill and ballast was in place for most of the stretch.
The track would seem to run almost completely from Mineola to Merrilon Avenue.
I think that the OB will end up getting one Direct NYP train in each direction, but along with that, we'll end up getting more trains terminating and originating at Mineola.
While there probably are no plans for this in the near future, this segment of track would be an integral part of any three-tracking of the line from Nassau to Queens towers.. There seems to be room most of the way, if you move some platforms back -- the third track would go where the platforms are now, and a new platform would need to be built south of their current location.
The bridge over the east end of Mineola Station seems to be built with enough room for this kind of addition.
I assume this would mean a third main track east of Queens Interlocking, where the Hempstead Branch occupies the southerly two rails of this four track section? The layout at Queens Interlocking must involve some delays now and then since westbound Hempsteads must share the same track with eastbounds to other destinations for some distance. A flying junction further east would be a lot more efficient, though the layout at Queens would still have to stay for the occasional Belmont Park train.
The LIRR's plan is a third track from Bellerose, Queens to Hicksville. Hicksville is already a three track station and interlocking so the only question is how Queens interlocking would be reconfigured.
This is a top priority for LIRR and about as close to a "sure thing" for construction as you'll find on LIRR.
[The LIRR's plan is a third track from Bellerose, Queens to Hicksville. Hicksville is already a three track station and interlocking so the only question is how Queens interlocking would be reconfigured.]
Which isn't to say that adding a third track will be easy. The stations along the way will have to be rebuilt, and there isn't much room to spare (consider Mineola and New Hyde Park, in particular).
Mineola is to be grade-separated, so this will be a complete rebuild.
We will lose one of the great old fashioned rail junctions when this happens.
Oh that really stinks. They'll also have to demolish the old Nassau Tower -- it's not the original tower, but we'll probably end up with either a remote operation from Divide (Hicksville) or Queens, or an antiseptic Air traffic control looking structure like Divide
[re demolition of Nassau Tower when Mineola is rebuilt]
IIRC, the tower's no longer in use. Operations in the area are controlled out of Divide.
I'm 100% positive that Nassau Tower is manned, and in operation, probably 24 hours a day. It controls the Nassau Interlocking plant, as well as the entire Oyster Bay line (Including remotely operating Locust Interlocking, which was formerly handled by Locust Tower).
They're listed in the latest ETT I have (6 months or so old), and I hear them all the time on the Radio.
When is this going to happen?
How many three track grade crossings will remain between Mineola and Hicksville?
I don't believe complete grade separation is in current planning. If fully funded, the LIRRs wish list is supposed to be done by about 2016. We should see third tracking completed somewhat sooner, unless something goes ppffffftttt financially.
With three tracks working in rush hour, I think they'll want to get rid of every single crossing, if possible.
"There seems to be room most of the way, if you move some platforms back -- the third track would go where the platforms are now, and a new platform would need to be built south of their current location."
Actually, I think I would opt to leave the southern platform at Mineola where it is and make it an Island platform with the new track passing to it's south side.
But wouldn't that take more real estate in a tight spot?
If they add a third track, they'd also have to think hard about elimating more of the grade crossings E of Mineola, too...
Thanks, Steve! That's a much better solution than running the OB shuttles back to Queens Village. On the other hand, of course, we'd rather have through service with dual modes.... but I'm not holding my breath. Well, it's been nice here on LI. Back to BOS this afternoon.
I want this to be added to the subway movie listings already..
The jackal with bruce willis has scenes of the montreal subway. A unique subway by all means (cept for maybe mexico city nowadays..)
(Thanks for the note but I'm not really trying to compile a list of subways other than NY in movies.)
It was definately the Montreal subway, but look at what it was supposed to pass for -- Washington DC's metro.
As seen on the 11:00 news: An visibly intoxicated man stumbled onto the Broadway Local tracks at 50th Street this evening and despite attempts to wrestle him to the platform, he fell back to the track where before too long a #1 train led by R62A #2466 came along, passing over him but not seriously injuring him. He was taken to a local hospital.
It would appear from this that subways and alcohol do not mix.
Wayne
I was in the area last night, about 7PM or so (was on my way to see a show on Bway), and
saw the troop of FDNY Rescue and NYPD trucks and cars surrounding the
area around 50th and Broadway. I also heard the FDNY command call for
power off, and getting it shut down on #1 track from about 47th to 70th or so.
The reports only said "Man confirmed pinned under train".
I would still rather see the drunk on the train than behing the wheel of a two ton battering ram!
I don't want to seem cold, but at least in the subway, his own is the only life in danger.
Well also the Motorman has to see this at well A man falling under his train. If the first car was not Transvse a little kid would have Witnessed this too. I remember when A drunk Homeless man fell in between the cars on my dads train. He also was operating a No.1 Train but happened Uptown at 14 Street on his last trip. The guy did live but my dad almost gave up his Handles which I talked him out of doing. The good thing was he had a good 5 day to think about it. He desided to stay with it.
" I don't want to seem cold, but at least in the subway, his own is the
only life in danger."
Unless he decides to push someone, that is..
hey everyone,
today at work i finished a book called Subway Lives. It's about 24b hours in the life of the New York City subway. It is by far the most intersting book i've ever read. It chronicles all the things that could and do happen on the world's wildest subway system. I would suggest it to any and all rail fans young and old. If you wanted it, i bet you could get a copy at amazon.com or some other site like that. Am i the only one that's read this book? i hope not but it was really, really good. I'm now reading a book called 722 miles. it's all about how the subway was created. I'll let you guys know if that one is as good.
Later gentlemen,
Matt
Theres a Good Book called Transit Talk. They Interview NYCTA Employees in most of the Job Titles and they talk about there experances and there part they play in moving New York. To name some of the titles are Track Workers,Cleaners,Conductors,Train Operators,Towermen,Dispatchors,Train Service Supervisers,Bus Drivers,Cars and Shops, Also the Transit Police Storys. Also Harry Nugent who was the star Under Broadway.
Sounds like a good book. Any specific book store chains sell it?
The Transit Museum store at GCT had it as of a month ago.
-Mark
Yep, I really enjoyed Subway Lives. It had an unusual cynical-yet-humorous tone that somehow seemed quite appropriate to its subject.
I've read 722 miles. Got it very cheap at the local Walgreens! It looks at the subways from a political point of view and goes into great depth with issues like the Dual Contracts. Definitely not a railfan book but quite interesting just the same.
Also gets into what the subways did for the development of the Bronx and Queens into densely populated areas.
Also now out of print. I've seen a couple of copies at train shows, however. If you luck into an autographed hardback at a fair price - he signed about 1000 copies, I've been told - snap it up. (I've got a plain old paperback, unfortunately.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I Have read SUBWAY LIVES Is is a great book there should be a sequal to this book. also Those with simular stories should tell them on SUBTALK.
As For 722 Miles I have read that also, this book tells the inside history of the system from the Boss Tweed Erea (Early Elevated lines) to Mayor LaGuadia (Unifaction 1950). This goes into The goverment side of the history of the Words Best Subway System. This book goes futher into historic documents, Goverment contracts Ect.
Great Book, For Goverment Historians and Transit Insiders Only.
There really should be a sequal to that book. when i finished it i was like "I want more". It must have taken a lot of time to reasearch for that book. Who knows? maybe he's working on a sequal as we speak, well type. and 722 miles has been pretty intersting even though i'm only 3 chapters into it.
see ya
Matt
You may also want to rent or watch on HBO Subway Stories. This Documovie has a number of stories from individuals strange events on the subway.
Transferring from the 7th Avenue to the Shuttle this evening, this reporter noticed the following:
Above the concourse (pretend you are walking from the 7th Ave IRT to the Bway BMT) there is some construction going on on the ceiling/rafters area. With the old stuff ripped away, decades old stuff has been exposed. There is one lonely sign which reads "CANARSIE". If anyone has trouble finding it, let me know, but I thought this was a glimpse at a past which we had lost.
I hope it stays uncovered long enough for someone to get a picture of it.