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Is there any way Lenox Yard could be fix so that they can make the 3 train 10 cars?
Is the Q train consider an IND or BMT line? Or both? If it return to Bway, then it will be a BMT line but right now it runs on IND tracks.......
In some maps that I have, the Q is an IND, in others, it is a BMT.
I consider the Q to be a "BMT" service - it has a BMT Letter (A-H: IND; J-Z: BMT) and originates from a former BMT terminal - Brighton Beach. It also uses the BMT-to-IND Chrystie Street connection.
Wayne
What about the B and D trains? Dont they use connection too?
Yes they do. I guess you could consider the "B" to be a BMT service even though it has an IND letter. The "D" is best known as IND due to its origins on the Concourse in the Bronx, even though it's been on the Brighton line for the last 30-odd years.
Wayne
Wayne: This brings up some interesting points. The West End Express (BMT #3 or T)was always something of a wanderer in search of a northern terminal. In the middle to late 1960's the T ran extended rush btwn Astoria-Coney Is,Astoria-Bay Pkwy, and Queensboro Plaza-Coney Is. On Saturdays it ran from 6a-8p btwn 57/7 and Coney Island.
A few put-ins/pull-outs also ran to Canal St/Bway via tunnel although they disguised themselves as TT as the proper place for a Bway express was on the bridge,not the tunnel.
The B continued this wandering tradition going to 168 and/or West 4 then 168 and 57/6Av. The current B has no less than three northern terminals. The only part of its routes that has remained fixed all these years has been the Dekalb-Coney Is BMT section.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Why did they choose to run the M to Marcy instead of the J.(Other than Bill from maspeth runs on the M)
Why?
The TA does every thing for one reason. Not for passenger convienience. Not for employee relations. Not for efficiency. No.
TO SAVE MONEY. That's the holy grail on the 13th floor. Figure out how to speed up a trip? OK, that's nice. What? You managed to save 1.1%? Make that man a superintendent.
Because J trips are longer, they require more crews. Shorten the run, and you can have less. The M run being only slightly longer would only require a few extra personnel.
That's why things happen the way they do down here.
Another example. Ever wonder why the D, a longer line has to make all the stops on the Brighton, while the Q scoots?
So they can get away with less Q crews. The few less stops would have only made a difference of a couple of minutes to the D. Not enough to save on a crew, or add another trip to those overburdened D people (reason #1 why I NEVER work there) BUT, Q's going in the middle, means they can tack on 5 trips, and pay a little built in over time (that's why the Q is so senior) and run the place with less personnel. That's called efficiency. A "productivity increase" I'ts blood money to me. I don't need the OT. I'd rather have more than 9 minutes between trips. I for one like to eat and maybe use the bathroom.
Erik,
I almost hate to say this but I agree with you on this issue. Mind you, saving money is a noble pursuit but some of our good friends at "Operations-Planning" may occassionally lose sight of our more important goals, like efficiently moving people. Not long ago, a person from that group of Wise Transit Sages stated at a meeting,
"The reason that there are not enough cars for service is because Car Equipment is doing too much maintenance."
For that reason, I'd never ride in her personal automobile. For that reason, I also question any decission they make.....
Yes, it would be logical & less confusing to run the M to Bway/Myrtle since it goes there most of the time already when you consider midday single track WillyB G/O's and night and weekend shuttle service before 5/1/99. But by the TA plan, they can get the maximum productivity out of the J & M crews. I'm sure there was a schedule worked out with the M to Bway/Myrtle & the J to Marcy, but by doing it the way they are, a job or two was probably saved. Because of this, those traveling between Bway/Myrtle & Marcy will have to squeeze into 4 cars instead of 6!
Why are they using only 4-car trains on the M between Metropolitan and Marcy? I thought it was because the new Marcy center platform can only fit 4-car trains. Thus, if the J ran there instead of the M, the J would have to be 4 cars instead of 6 (or 8).
Marcy Ave middle platform can accomodate a six car train.The reason the M is running 4-car trains is because extra cars are needed on the L,and extra cars were sent to Coney Island to supplement N and possibly Q service.Also, the T.A. must feel that the majority of people getting on the M between Metropolitan ave and Seneca ave will transfer to the L at Wyckoff.Since that is only a 4 station difference,they probably feel that everyone can squeeze in and wait a few minutes to transfer at Wyckoff.Even though it's only 6 minutes between Wyckoff and Metropolitan aves,there will probably be overcrowding on the M because of the 4 car trains and 10 minute headway.To get 6 car slant R40s on the M, all you need is 10 more cars.I don't think they're that short where they can't get 10 more cars for service.Correction,they need 12 cars because they run 5 trains with a gap train in the yard.I can't wait to see the overcrowding on Monday.
Maybe the TA suits hope if they make it inconvient enough that folks will go reverse on the J & catch the E, or get off at Broadway & Eastern Pky and catch the L or A/C ?
Mr t__:^)
Since the Archer connection opened in 1988, many people along the 'J/Z' reverse to Sutphin and then catch the 'E' into Manhattan. This defeats the entire purpose of reviving Jamaica El service into downtown Jamaica; i.e. encouraging people who work downtown to go through Brooklyn and thus relieve crowding on the Queens Boulevard lines through Midtown.
Unfortunately, linking the 'E' and 'J' at Sutphin has backfired big time. People who used to take the El into Manhattan from Woodhaven and Richmond Hill (or buses to Queens Boulevard stations) are backtracking to Supthin as described above. This has only made overcrowding on the 'E' worse. Any morning rush hour, you will see huge crowds of people at Supthin coming upstairs from the lower level 'J' platform to the the upper level 'E' platform. Likewise, any afternoon rush hour, you will see the reverse, and many more people disembarking from INBOUND 'J's from 121st as far west as Eldert than people getting off OUTBOUND 'J/Z's.
Apparently, no matter what the incentives, people avoid commuting on the 'J/Z' like the plague. Of course, now with the Bridge cut off, I shudder to think what the 'E' will be like in rush hours.
Why do people avoid the J/Z? Slow service or another problem?
From what I've heard, people who avoid the 'J/Z' do so because:
-It's faster to get into Midtown on the 'E'.
-To get to downtown Brooklyn, one has to change at East New York for the 'A' which requires going up a stairway, then down a very deep, crowded escalator. Many feel it's preferable to take the 'F' from Queens to downtown Brooklyn by way of Midtown.
-The perception is that the neighborhoods through which the 'J/Z' run are dangerous. Maybe in the middle of the night-
-It generally does feel slower due to a very old elevated structure and many stops close together. The peak direction rush hour skip-stop service is frequently not enforced. The middle track between Eastern Parkway and Myrtle Avenue is unused, and no middle track was ever constructed between Cypress Hills and 121st Street even though provision was made for one.
All these reasons prevailed BEFORE the Bridge closure. Now, forget it!!
Parsons to Myrtle on the J takes about 30 minutes. Parsons to Lexington Ave. on the E takes about 25 minutes. 'nuff said?
Has anyone given any thought to what happens if any of the cars being run on any of the Eastern division temporary routes need one of their major inspections (or, God forbid, there is an accident and the cars need to be trucked away)? They are stranded out there, are they not?
Couldn't get the cars down to Coney Island or up to 207th St, so what happens?
On another note, a bit of nostalgia yesterday coming in from LGA. Got off the Q33 at Roosevelt Avenue, headed down to the IND, and in pulls an E made up of R46 cars. Hadn't seen one of those in a long time!!!
Not to play Monday Morning Quarterback, but no one asked my opinion ahead of time, so here goes. The MTA seems to have this thing about keeping stations open. No matter that someone entering the station, and boarding a train, couldn't get anywhere. I guess it's political.
Money is being spent on a shuttle from Essex to Chambers, an area where people can (and probably should) just walk to other trains. Money is being spent keeping the J and M running west of Broadway Junction. Why? If you are prepared to just shut the line down, other things could have been done with the money.
First of all, for most J, M and Z riders west of Broadway Junction, a slightly longer walk to the L, A, C or G is the best alternative. For others, a bus to one of those lines is the best alternative. More money should have been used for bus service, and DOT should have installed temporary bus lanes on routes in Ridgewood, Bushwick, Bed-Stuy. Not would be a good time to do any and all maintenance on the Broadway Brooklyn and Myrtle Ave lines. (For those East of Broadway Junction, a J/M/Z train and a change to the A/L is probably the best move, so service there should be maintained).
Next, why not run the M up the Broadway local and down Queens Blvd? With only 8 N trains and 8 R trains at peak (according to the new schedule), it sure seems like 6 or 7 M trains could join them. That would just be 22-23 trains. Shut down the Nassau Loop and do maintenance.
Of course, you shouldn't lay people off just to save a few dollars. But if closing the stations reduced manpower needs, you could pay less overtime during vacations this year. And, in any event, more people would be available to run more trains elsewhere.
Perhaps the TA is concerned that if too many J,M,Z riders take advantage of other alternatives, they'll find they are better off, and will demand more service on the other lines!
Is there any track connection between the J/Z and the E at Jamaica Center? That would be the only connection I could think of for the stranded Easterd Division cars.
[Is there any track connection between the J/Z and the E at Jamaica Center? That would be the only connection I could think of for the stranded Easterd Division cars.]
There's no connection, unfortunately.
Reminds me of a situation some years back (unplanned, however) when a bridge on one of the north lines on the MBTA burned down, stranding a whole bunch of trains up there. (Maybe it was even the main lead bridge to North Station because I remember something about a temporary station needing to be built)
Yes, it was the bridge over the Charles River leading to North Station. Trains terminated next to the old Boston Engine Terminal, and a temporary walkway was constructed to the Community College station on the Orange Line which runs parallel.
The only way to move cars from the Eastern Division to the rest of the system without the Williamsburgh Bridge is by using non-TA trackage. the move would have to be as follows:
From L at the Linden Shops to the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch
From the Bay Ridge Branch at 65th Street to the Cross Harbor RR tracks on 1st Avenue, Brooklyn
From the CHRR to the South Brooklyn RR tracks at 39th Street
From the SBKRR to the TA 36th Street yard (on the West End line).
There was a thread on this topic about two or three weeks ago with more detailed descriptions of the various connections mentioned here.
[The only way to move cars from the Eastern Division to the rest of the system without the Williamsburgh Bridge is by using non-TA trackage. the move would have to be as follows:
From L at the Linden Shops to the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch
From the Bay Ridge Branch at 65th Street to the Cross Harbor RR tracks on 1st Avenue, Brooklyn
From the CHRR to the South Brooklyn RR tracks at 39th Street
From the SBKRR to the TA 36th Street yard (on the West End line).]
It would be a lot quicker (and probably cheaper) just to put the cars on flatbed trucks. In any event, I don't believe that there are any plans to move cars off of the Eastern Divison during the bridge shutdown. The East New York yard has been upgraded to handle any necessary maintenance during this period.
How much would it have cost to put in a connection between the J and the E tracks in Jamaica when the J subway was built?
Sigh...
Everyday i take a #2 to work, when the train pass the Unionport Yard and i saw a Snowblower at Unionport Yard. I said myself why are snowblower doing in Unionport Yard? There wasn't a alot of snow early this year and i get a close up at the snowblower. It JB-1 and how many snowblower are there? there is 5 snowblower? All i know they have JB-1,JB-4 and JB-5. I want you to take a look at this picture of Snowblower .
Ah, a jet blower. These were developed by the New York Central at the Peat St. Car Shops (Syracuse) in the early '60's. NYCRR took an old caboose, cut away most of the carbody and strapped a mliitary surplus F-86 jet engine on to it. But that's not all, they also took an RDC car, attached a 2-engine nacelle cluster from a B-36 and blasted it down a tangent in Ohio at @ 180 MPH !!!!! YOWZAH
Today I rode the N train bound for Astoria, and to my surprise it was an R40M! It was a little weird but I can get use to it. It was a nice and fast ride, quite similar to an R-40 slant.
PEace
DaShawn
As it should be! Take away the fake R42 nose and what you have is an R40. NYCT thought the slant design would be problematic so they had the last 100 units of the R40 order re-designed with "Modified" ends, like the R42, hence the name "Modified R40" or "R40M".
The "N" sign - did it have a black or a white letter?
Wayne /MrSlant(AND Modified}R40\
Thanks!
It had a black letter "N"
Peace
DaShawn
Yeah, I saw that yesterday, too....
Don't be suprised by that since there was a 3 way car swap: R40/42 ENY to CI; R32's (Phase II CI to JAM; R32's (Phase I JAM to PITKIN. CI gave up 80 R32's to Jamaica, so that R40M took the place of a 32.
How will the three way swap manifest itself in service?
Michael
R42/R40M/R40 are the same animal regardless of apperance to those who are not aware, FAST and an awesome piece of equipment to operate.
I can see saying the R-40 and R-40M are the same animal, as they came from the same contract. But the R-42 came from a totally different contract, and the exteriors are quite different from the similar exteriors of the R-40/40M (excluding the fronts). Saying the R-40 and R-42 are the same animal seems tantamount to saying the R-32 and R-38, or the R-44 and R-46, respectively, are the same animal.
Well, they're from the same species, anyway (and I'm sure the R-46 doesn't want anyone to know about it's connection to the R-44)
Thank you Sid. I am one of those who feels that an R-40M is out of place on a train of R-40's,dittos mixing R-32's with R-38's. There are visual differences there that even a layman could see.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R40/R40-M and the R42 are virtually the same except for the R42 has the full metal covers under the doors that run the length of the car. The R40/40m's have the sloted design, and of course the slants are the R40's and the R40M's have the same fronts as the R42's. The R40/40M's have the same motors, the GE 1257E1's @ 115HP. While the R42's have the Westinghouse 1447J @ 115Hp. The R32 and R38's are completely different they do not look the same at all. The R32's have the flutted bodies and the R-38's are smooth with flutted bottoms. The R32's are from Budd and the R38's are from St. Louis Car, the R40/40M's and R42's are all from the same manufacturer St. Louis Car, even though they were different contracts.
Peace
DaShawn
Ah, but the ultimate question is: was it a solid train of R-40Ms? They're almost always found in the same train as their R-42 cousins.
I remember riding R-42s on the N back in July of 1971. They were FAST! I'll bet they hit 50 on the 4th Ave. run without breaking a sweat.
I saw a train of R40Ms today also on the N... I couldn't catch if it was solid or mixed with R42s...
Mike
I made sure to stick around and see, It was a full set of R40M's, not one R42 in the consist.
Peace
DaShawn
As Mel Allen used to say, how about that?
In response to those who asked for it, here is the current (3/99) trackless roster for SEPTA:
110 tracklesses on system, all '79 AM General
800-09 equipped with front-door wheelchair lift (first SEPTA vehicles to have lifts), 42 passenger capacity
Remainder (810-909) have 46 passenger capacity
Based at Southern Depot for Routes 29 and 79 - 24 vehicles:
810-14, 16-24, 26-28, 30, 32-34, 36-38
Based at Frankford Depot for Routes 59, 66 and 75 - 42 vehicles:
815, 25, 29, 42, 45, 46, 48-50, 53, 57, 58, 61, 63, 64, 66, 67, 71, 74, 76, 78-80, 82, 84-88, 90-92, 95-99, 902, 03, 05, 08, 09
Other 44 in storage at various sites, most at Germantown Depot.
Allegedly, 843 never operated and may never have even had poles installed.
Thanks Bob! I'll add this to the roster ASAP.
-Dave
The past couple of days I have noticed quite a few R-32s on the R... then today I saw that the E had tons of R-46s. Did the R and E swap cars or something? I did also see a train of slants on the B as mentioned before on this board.
Mike
R-46s are running on the E even off-peak. This morning I caught the 5:06 a.m. from WTC; it was an R-46.
This weekend,162 R-32s changed home. 82 Jamaica R-32 Phase Is went to Pitkin and 80 Coney Island R-32 Phase IIs went to Jamaica. Since the 'R' goes to bed on the weekend nights, having R-32s in R service makes them available for transfer once the railroad is put to bed.
Beginning Monday AM, there will be 26 E-Trains instead of the normal 22. At the same time, there will be 4 less F trains. Since the number of R-32s at Jamaica Shop was decreased by two, you can expect to see 4-5 R-46s on the E-Line daily until October.
Less F trains! Somebody going to complain shortly......
The reduction in F service will barely be perceptable, especially in Queens where the reduction will be off-set by an equivalent increase in E service. If you do the math, the change in headways in Brooklyn should be less than 1 minute and, therefore, virtually un-noticable. Where there will be a noticable difference should be on the 8th Avenue corridor where increased A, C & E service may lead to some congestion.
I couldn't summed it up better!!!
Why can't the C train be extended to Leffert Blvd. since the MTA has decided to let it run in Brooklyn during the weekends, too.
That way the A train could run only to Far Rockaway, full time and still provide service to Rockaway Park during rush hours.
If anyone was going to ask, run a shuttle train from Euclid to Lefferts during Late nights like they do already.
Any input????
And they could call the now-nameless Lefferts shuttle a 'C' train.
But I doubt that the demand is there.
If they ran ALL the "A" to Far Rockaway there would be a glut of trains serving that line - they need lots of trains on the "A", especially now with the Williamsburg Bridge closure. Plus there's the turnaround capability at Euclid Avenue. One solution could be to run the "C" to Lefferts and eliminate the "S" shuttle, sending the former Lefferts "A"s to Rockaway Park. Or send the "C" there (they used to do this back in the 70s) and keep the split "A" service to Lefferts and Far Rockaway. As was posted earlier, though, the demand for this kind of service may not be present to warrant it.
Wayne
Read my post about the Willy B service. Same deal. I agree with you though.
one answer for not extending A to Rock Park especially on weekend COST!
low ridership is one reason to Rockaway Park
OPTO they're (MTA) saving a bundle by operating a 4 car R44 eqipped train with only the Train Operator.
How many more trains would be needed if all A trains ran to Far Rock and the C ran to Lefferts? (At least Monday to Friday except after 8-9 pm. After that a shuttle could serve Lefferts?)
That what I mean..There shouldn't be any problem and that way, the A's could go to Far Rock and the C's to Lefferts. What is 7 more stops on the C going to do??
The point is, you would need lots more cars. And the TA doesn't have them!
Is getting the Lefferts and Far Rockaway A trains confused is a problem for A line riders? Because that's why I thought the C should go to Lefferts. But if there aren't enough cars for the C to be sent there, then why not simply rename the Lefferts branch the K train. That would do away with any confusion as to where the train is headed. And while we're at it, the Rockaway Park shuttle should be the H train again (How many S's can we have?). And this way you could have the same amount of equipment running on the A line. The only difference would be that Lefferts-bound trains say K and Rockaway-bound trains say A. Maybe the A could continue to run express evenings and weekends in Brooklyn as well.
This is one instance where having front end destination roller curtains would really come in handy. They should have been kept on the R-32s and R-38s. I always like to know where my train is headed as soon as it pulls into the station.
Oh yes, that's another thing. With no front end destination sign, it's even more confusing!
I rest my case. At least the Redbirds still have those good old roller curtains up front.
And the 110B's have some destinations on the front signs right below the route bullet.
Assuming that (now that there are more R32s on the "A") you can see what the sign says. Next to impossible on some of them, though I hear the situation (at least at Jamaica yard) is improving...
Where's my Windex(TM)?
Wayne
The only stretch where the R-32 pixel signs can be a hassle would be where the A and C share trackage between Canal St. and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Otherwise, A trains have the express tracks all to themselves along the rest of their route, both in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Of course, if you throw in the E where it shares the 8th Ave. local tracks with the C... Maybe it's just as well that some R-46s are back on the E.
Cant use the H and K!!! Those are taken for my proposed subway line:):):):)
Would this work:
1- Run all A trains to Far Rock (At same gap as is present for Rockaway trains.)--no more trains- and run Fulton express when C is running)
2- RUn the C train-same gap as current A to Lefferts--via local.
3- late nite A runs as it does now.
Net result: All A to Far Rock and All C to Lefferts and no more trains needed? (Maybe the gap could even be reduced-say 14 rather than 15?)
That'swhat I said in the beginning...Too bad the MTA won't consideer it...Also, why is the M train running to Marcy Avenue instead of the J..I mean...COMMON SENSE!!!!!
See my previous post for the answer. Many C line jobs are 3 trips. By extending the line to Lefferts Blvd., many more crews would be needed thereby increasing operating costs. There is no way the crews could do 3 trips under that setup.
Roman,
It would probably be about as effective as the old (C) running to Rockaway Park or the old (R) running to 179th St-Jamaica. I have always assumed that those two lines failed due to the fact that nobody wanted to get on a local at that great a distance from downtown or midtown Manhattan. I'm quite sure that 1) nobody ever got on an (R) at 179th St, but everyone crowded into the (F) and 2) everyone getting on the (C) at Rockaway Park got off at Broad Channel to catch a presumably already crowded (A).
Bob Sklar
In response to recent inquiries concerning publications from Silver Leaf Rapid Transit (Models), I've made a first stab at a more or less comprehensive listing.
Go to
http://www.rapidtransit.net and follow the links.
Comments welcome.
My parents are in town, staying at a hotel in Manhattan. After they visited us in Brooklyn, I drove them in, and on the way home, I took the lower level of the Manhattan Bridge. I noticed that the posted speed was only 25 miles per hour, and said to myself I wonder what would happen if I obeyed the speed limit?
Here's what happened. Two-thirds the way across the span I caught a D train of R68s from behind. And blew by it.
Even the Slant R40s on the "Q" kowtow to the restricted speed on the Manhattan Bridge. Back on March 15, we crossed the bridge aboard #4150 at a maximum speed of 25MPH on the downgrade. Uphill we never made it to 20.
Wayne
[My parents are in town, staying at a hotel in Manhattan. After they visited us in Brooklyn, I drove them in, and on the way home, I took the lower level of the Manhattan Bridge. I noticed that the posted speed was only 25 miles per hour, and said to myself I wonder what would happen if I obeyed the speed limit?
Here's what happened. Two-thirds the way across the span I caught a D train of R68s from behind. And blew by it.]
That could be why the pedestrian walkway hasn't been opened - it would be too embarassing for the Transit Authority when walkers leave the trains in the dust :-)
Brian Cudahy's original edition of Under the Sidewalks of New York mentions a downgrade speed limit of 15 mph on the bridge. One of the epilogue's footnotes reads: "Descending the steep grades of the Manhattan Bridge has always been the ultimate test of a motorman's skill." It was probably even more of a chore before SMEE braking came on the scene. The second edition points out that 3-car BX units of BMT standards (with a motorless trailer in the middle) were banned from the bridge, possibly because of concerns that such a train wouldn't have the horses to make it across. Occasionally, one would manage to sneak across.
I'm going to cut the R-68s some slack on this one. (Gasp!)
HeY Hey HEy----The MTA needs to release glow-in-the-dark Metrocards. What a fun and exciting way to boost MTA sales and ridership. I know I would buy one. The extra $$$$$ from the sales could help get rid of that piss odor at various stations and trains.
And the $$$ can also allow the MTA to afford glass or plastic covered maps at various elevated stations, so dumb punks can't write their gang slogans over them or write Mike loves Jenny on them that makes it totally impossible to find what line to take and defeats the purpose of having a map at a station in the first place. I know the maps are free----but come on MTA, invest a little dinero to protect them from these elements. Please feel free to leave any comments
I like that idea! I would definitly buy one in a heart beat. I hope that someone from the MTA is reading this because they do need something to protect the maps subway.
Peace
DaShawn
Hey I'm all for this idea too - now if the MTA forgets to turn the lights on in the train when in a tunnel -- which has happened to me twice on the N train -- we can still find our Metrocards!
What an awesome idea Casey!!!! That's totally funky and brilliant all at the same time. The MTA needs cool people lke you to run this organization:)
Awesome idea. I'm with you on this. I like your ideas and comments!
Plastic covered maps would seem like the most logical thing for the MTA to do. The map situation is not just a problem w/ elevated stations, but underground ones too.
Awesome idea. I'm with you on this. I like your ideas and
comments!
Plastic covered maps would seem like the most logical
thing for the MTA to do. The map situation is not just a
problem w/ elevated stations, but underground ones too.
Never leave home without your Glow-in-the Dark card.
I like the idea too.
COOL IDEA!
I meant to say never leave home without your Glow-in-the-dark Metrocard.
Forget about Glow-in-the Dark Metrocards. How about Glow-in-the-Dark subway trains!!!!!! Oh yeah
Glow in the dark trains is a stupid idea. That would be a waste of money and what would be the point. Every subway station is lighted. I think you need a glow in the dark brain.
I think you need a glow in the dark penis.
But if ta gave a fuck it would be a miracle !
Really? If the prospect of having glow-in-the-dark Metrocards is in any way profitable for the MTA, they may make a little peek at the idea, but no more.
And yes, I know the centennial is going to be reached soon. Personally, I can think of a whole lot better things than glowing MC's.
#3 West End Jeff
I was looking at the Car Roster and I just wanted confirmation on what I think I saw. All the wooden composite Hi-V cars are gone?
Composites?? They were retired in the late 1950s.
Not one saved.
Jeff, If you don't mind ... how is what he's talking about different from #3662 at Branford ?
Mr t__:^)
The Composites had wooden sides with steel undercarriages. Their sides were tapered slightly. Originally delivered without center doors, these were added subsequently. They were banished to the els in, I believe, 1916.
3662 is an all-steel Hi-V, just like Gibbs 3352. These are the only two surviving Hi-Vs anywhere.
The Composites could, and did, run in m. u. with the all-steel Hi-Vs, but the IRT held its breath when running such mixed consists. A collision would mean disaster.
Actually..I believe that the California State Railway Museum (of all places..) has one...because a few of the Composites were sent to California during WWII to be used as transportation for war workers...(i.e. as coaches behind steam..)
Really? I will make some phone calls on this-
If so, I'll be making a trip up to Sacramento soon! Thanks for the tip!
I just looked at the roster for the California Railway Museum and the only rapid transit cars on the list are Manhattan Elevated #844 and #889 built in 1886 by Gilbert. They did run in the Richmond Shipyards during the war.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't recall seeing IRT cars at the California State RR Museum, but I was in some IRT Second Av El cars that had been in use on the WEst Coast during WWII when we visited Rio Vista a few years back during the ERA convention in San Francisco. The cars were in sad shape but have potential for restoration with a lot of tender loving care.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Those are the ones that the previous poster meant. They are at Rio Vista (Western Railway Museum). Unfortunately when I was there in 1996 I wasn't aware of the El cars' existance and did not seek them out.
-Dave
As noted in other posts, the 2 cars out at Bay Area are
not composites. They are Manhattan Railways el cars, originally
built as steam trailers and assigned to the 2nd Ave el line.
They were rebuilt as motor cars ca. 1903 and retired from the NY
system in the mid-1940s. Those 2 cars were used as switchers
at a shipyard in California for about 2 years. Now they are
preserved at Bay Area. I don't know about their operational status.
The composites lasted a little bit longer in NY, being retired
in the early 1950s. There are rumors that some composite car
bodies lived on as summer cottages, toolsheds, etc., and that
somewhere in this world there may be a body or two. You can forget
about the compressors, trucks, motors, controls or anything else
metal with scrap value.
I've been told that a fairly large number of composite bodies - upwards of 40 - made their way to Rockland County as cabins at a summer camp there. They were burned in the early '70s though after the camp closed. As I recall, they replaced trolley car bodies that had been used since the '30s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I recall correctly, there was a photo of these cars in the 1997 or 1998 NY Subways Calendar put out by Newkirk Images.
Anyone have one of those I could see a scan of, out of curiousity?
1995 calendar has two shots:
- March 3667, probally same as Branford 3662, i.e. steel
- May 3359 on Pelham Bay line
1998 - October = maybe a Hi-V at City Hall, fan trip ?
I don't have '97 & will leave it to others to ID if these are steel or composite.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, 3667 was a sister of 3662. Both were Gibbs deck roof Hi-Vs, part of a 50-car fleet. They were designed to have center doors added later, which is precisely what happened. Apparently, this design compensated for structural stability with the center door added, because these cars did not have fish belly sills. Check out 3662 at Shore Line and see for yourself.
3359 would have been an original Gibbs Hi-V, seven numbers removed from Seashore's 3352.
I didn't think either of the calendar photos was a composite, thanks for clarifing.
[Check out 3662 at Shore Line and see for yourself.
3359 would have been an original Gibbs Hi-V, seven numbers removed from Seashore's 3352.]
Steve B, I case you haven't heard Shore Line will be rolling out 3662 to play with the other NYC Trolley/Subways this June, so if you're in town, maybe I'll see you there. Missed the "members" day because my wife wanted to visit our son in Del. (it got posponed a week).
Seashore ... hope to get up there this summer !
Thought I might get to Kingston this Sat., but it's too much out of my way to Binghamton (can't leave NYC until after lunch).
Mr t__:^)
One more tidbit concerning the Composites: their numbering sequence started in the 2000s; they carried lower numbers than the all-steel Hi-Vs.
The 1997 calendar has a picture of something related to this, but not the camp with PCCs. It's the picture for March 1997. The caption reads:
Closure of Manhattan's 2nd and 9th Ave ELs brought on a surplus of cars and opportunities of what to do with them. One was seized by the NYC Dept of Sanitation. Several cars were acquired and trucked upstate to Holmes, NY. The resort known as "Sanita Hills" was a special getaway for sanitation employees. Later it was acquired by a boy scout camp and named "Camp Sanita". The wooden El cars lasted until 1976 when a land developer burned them.
Speaking of PCCs, for the longest time, there used to be a PCC car body in a field which is now a municipal parking lot in Brighton Beach between Brighton 2nd and 4th Streets at the Boardwalk. I remember it as a kid, painted green and rotting away.
--Mark
--Mark
[The resort known as "Sanita Hills" was a special getaway for sanitation employees. Later it was acquired by a boy scout camp and named "Camp Sanita". The wooden El cars lasted until 1976 when a land developer burned them.]
My son & I camped there one winter in the 80's (our Troop did a "winter" camp out in a different camp each year ... we even had a supervised snow ball fight). We stayed in what looked like an overgrown car garage, big roll up doors, etc. Saw no evidence of trolley car bodies. Shortly after our stay the Boy Scouts sold the property.
Mr t__:^)
If I'm not mistaken, the car body that you saw at Brighton Beach was not that of a PCC but of a Trolley Coach!
If you wanted to see an old BKLYN PCC all you had to do up to the 1970s was to go to the Hammels in the Rockaways, there was a kids camp that had originally 6 PCCs, then at the end only 3 were left.
OH WELL, "Gimme dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me!"
Wait a minute ... I think it was Rockaway - not Rockland County. I vaguely recall a summer camp on the way out to Far Rockaway that had PCC bodies as cabins, all painted with bright colors ....
--Mark
I was referring to the subway bodies, not the PCC car bodies (hadn't heard of them, in fact, until you mentioned it). The Camp Sanitas reference in another branch of this thread is what I was thinking of.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Around 8 PM Saturday 5/1/99, the frist slant R40 train arrived at Metropolitan Ave. from ENYD. By 11 PM, the line had 3/8 car R40 slants availiable for service. 2 were running, and 1 was a station gap. For Monday AM rush service to Marcy Ave., all 3 trains will be cut 4x4 with 5 on the road, and a 4 car gap in FPYD. All cars have a yellow triangle (pointing downward) under one number board designating a side sign modification: The useless Crescent St. designation had a Marcy Ave. terminal decal placed over it. I took a round trip from Met to Bway/Myrtle on one, and it ran like a charm! I always thought the lowest pair was 4398/99, but 4392/93 & 4396/97 were out there. Wayne: what was the lowest numbered pair you saw when all the ENY slants were on the L?
#4398-4399 were the lowest pair in regular service on the "L". They had #4202-4203 running out there a few years back (late 1997) but I do believe they have been reassigned to the "Q".
If you see #4416-4417 please let me know - these haven't been seen for quite some time and I'm wondering what their current status is.
Thanks, Bill
Wayne
I had it on one of my trips last nite.It was in the middle of the consist.I had 4409 on one of my trips as a South motor,it was a very fast train.I'm glad we have them on the M line until October.
Back on Nov 7 1998 I had the double pleasure of the company of Mr. Simon Billis (of Swindon, UK) and #4399 to take us through the 14th Street tube to Brooklyn. #4399 is one fast machine. Perhaps they've given her some Wheaties (maybe #4409 too). She shot through the tunnel at 50MPH, and her operator (while I don't necessarily agree with his/her tactics here) played the GT's like pinballs, charging right up to the yellows and knocking them down to greens without an ounce of fear. I remarked to Simon while we were gazing into the gloom from #4399's long RF window that if she happened to trip one of those nasty little suckers, we'd probably wind up in the last car of the train (only kidding!).
Another fast Slant is #4314, pride of the "Q" line, though I am beginning to think that all 272 of them are capable of such feats.
Wayne
Wayne
Wow, do I remember that trip. My first on a slant R40. You could just catch the signal changing to green if you looked hard right out of the Railfan Window. We were really cooking on that L train. Wayne remarked at the time that the Slants were capable of even better performance. I thought we were going fast enough the tunnel was just a blur.
With all of the people who contribute to subtalk is it worth having a "save the railfan window campaign". Nice thought.
Simon
Swindon UK
Slants? L train? i thought they were on the Q B F lines good performence>? help
There hasn't been a Slant R40 on the "F" line since the mid-to-late 1970s. They went from the "E" and "F" to the "A" (and occasionally "AA") then to the "B" (and occasionally the "D") then they went into General Overhaul in 1989, returning to the "B" with a few on the "N". The 4400 series went to the "L". In late 1997 there was a general swap between the "B" and the "Q", and through 1998 there have been more R40 reported on the "N". Currently on the weekends, R40's have been reported on the "B" as well.
Currently the R40 MDBF is in excess of 100,000 miles. Not too shabby.
Wayne
I wonder if that distinctive track joint is still in place in the Brooklyn-bound tube of the 14th St. tunnel. Back in the days when I was a regular Saturday commuter on the Canarsie, I would hear a very audible "ka-thunk" repeated in each car as the train would pass over a certain expansion joint. You could even see it through the front window; it was located at the point where the upgrade has just begun. The rails didn't appear to line up precisely. I would be very surprised if that joint were still the same 29 years later.
I have to correct myself again - there aren't 272 Slants left - there are 292!
/Sorry for any misinformation\
Wayne
...that if she happened to trip one of those nasty little suckers, we'd probably wind up in the last car of the train (only kidding!)
I hate (read:love) to nitpick, but if you did come to a sudden stop, you would likely end up on the tracks, not in the last car. An object in motion tends to stay in motion, until it hits an immovable object (or expends its energy against a source of friction), in your case, likely the roadbed, if you went through the window.
-Hank :)
You're right. The only way you'd wind up in the last car would be if the train were to peel out from a dead stop. If the multisectionals were still around, it just might happen.
Thanks Mike for the info regarding #4416-17; I hadn't seen them since 1997, last spotted on the "L". I thought maybe something had happened to them. I am aware of #4427 and #4428 being laid up with broken noses and anticlimbers, facing an uncertain future. I wonder if they plan to repair them.
Wayne
I saw 4392-93 on the test train to Marcy ave tonight.
Correction, 4394-95.
Further to my recent posts, anyone coming to London watch out for the
following closure:
NORTHERN LINE closed for a 9 (nine) Week period from 3rd July until
5th September between MOORGATE and KENNINGTON on what is the BANK Branch of the Northern line.
This closure is to allow tunnel improvement work and the withdrawl of
several speed restrictions as a result.
Normal service on all other parts of the line (CHARING CROSS Branch) and trains will still serve stations on the "Bank Branch" upto Moorgate, where services will reverse using the emergency crossover.
I wonder if it will be like the closure of the "Willy Bridge"services in New York lol lol, riders forced onto bus services or other lines
both sides of the Atlantic!.
.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
In the NY Post Sunday May 1, page 12, is an article about the Subway Stabber who sneaks up behind women in the subway stations and pricking their buttocks with a sharp object.
Also at the top of the article is a picture of Edgar Rivera who was shoved on to the 51st and Lexington Ave Station #6 line.
After the excellent folks of SubTalk read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
In the NY Post Sunday May 1, page 18, is a small article on the Williamsburg Bridge shutdown on the M,J,Z trains that begins on Monday May 3.
After the Excellent folks of SubTalk read the article, your thoughts again are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Make the date on the articles Sunday May 2 from the NY Post.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Does the TA still maintain any distinction between historical BMT and IND routes. Have the pick lists been completely merged--i.e.: can the same operating personnel pick either, say, an "A" line or an "L" line run?
If not, how would we decide (just for discussion purposes) which routes are "BMT" and which are "IND"?
Of course, some are obvious--the N Line or anything on the Eastern Division are distinctly BMT. Other than that, we might count routes which don't run to IND outer borough terminals (B or Q) as BMT.
Another way might be to count lines based at an IND yard such as Jamaica as IND, from Coney Island as BMT.
There are geographical & political differences between the IND & BMT. Several lines are considered both BMT & IND depending on location. When a train crosses that line (which varies in location), they move from B-1 (BMT) to B-2(IND) control. Some of those lines are:
D-train in IND from Grand St. north and BMT from the Manhattan Bridge Portal, south. Ditto for the Q and the B.
The F train is BMT from Stillwell Ave to Ditmas Ave. From Church Ave, it becomes IND.
R-train is BMT from 95th St through Manhattan to the 11th St. cut
where it becomes IND to Continental Ave.
A,C, E, & G are strictly IND
J, L, M, N, & Z are strictly BMT
Steve: Wasn't the part of the BMT Culver line south of Ditmas Av formally transfered to the IND back in 1954 like the Astoria was formally transfered from the IRT to the BMT back in 1949? The line was resignalled also from the BMT Culver "C" to the IND Sixth Av "B".
Larry,RedbirdR33
You may be correct, however, if memory serves me correctly, when an incident occurs, the determination as to who handles it is dependent on that invisible line between Church Av. and Ditmas. Any 'F' line T/Os or C/Rs to either confirm or correct that?
Steve: I just happened to be looking in Dougherty's track book and he shows a change in the road radio channel south of Church Av from B1 to B2.
It would be interesting to see a copy of the Bulletin Order that implemented the change back in 1954.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'm sure you are not referring to a bulletin about radios as i don't think radios were used that far back...
Steve: What I was referring to was the Bulletin Order that would have been issued back in 1954 conveying authority of train movements on the Culver Line from the BMT to the IND.
I have a copy of Bulletin Order #1949-11 that formally transfered the Astoria Line to the BMT Division and it contains much useful information. I wonder if anyone has copies of old Bulletin Orders?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry: Any chance you could get that Order scanned and posted here?
Dan: If you want to e-mail me I'll try to send it to you via e-mail.
Larry,RedbirdR33 @hotmail
< The F train is BMT from Stillwell Ave to Ditmas Ave. From Church Ave, it becomes IND. >
<
< R-train is BMT from 95th St through Manhattan to the 11th St. cut
where it becomes IND to Continental Ave. >
Interesting, if official. In pre-Chrystie days the Culver "D" was strictly IND, while the BMT local operation on the IND Queens line was a BMT operation.
And the "L" train is BMT from Rockaway Parkway to Atlantic Ave. It is IND north of that station.
No no no! The "L" is entirely BMT. The subway portion was built by the BMT and opened in 1924-1928, well before the IND.
Check out The Canarsie Line for a brief history.
-Dave
The "L" is as BMT as it gets - the two major underground sections opened in 1924 and 1928 respectively, several years before the IND opened. The 8th Avenue station, which was added later, and opened in 1931, DOES feature IND architecture and wall tile, but so did Broad Street and Fulton Street on the Nassau line before their early 1990's makeovers. 8th Avenue is also in the process of getting a makeover - there's a glimpse of some kind of new wall tile on the south side tracks but it's too soon to tell exactly what it's going to look like. It won't look like the other Canarsie Line stations, that much is for sure. Too bad.
Wayne
[The "L" is as BMT as it gets - the two major underground sections opened in 1924 and 1928 respectively, several years before the IND opened. The 8th Avenue station, which was added later, and opened in 1931, DOES feature IND architecture and wall tile, but so did Broad Street and Fulton Street on the Nassau line before their early 1990's
makeovers.]
I also suspect that if the Manhattan portions of the L had been built under IND auspices, there would have been a track connection with the IND at 8th Avenue. That sure would come in handy today ...
I would have to believe the S. 4th St. subway would have competed directly with the Broadway-Brooklyn and Canarsie lines, had it been built.
Back to the IND/BMT issue, what about the eastern leg of the Fulton St. el where the A runs today? Is it considered BMT at all today?
It should be considered a BMT, since it resembles the F going into the Culver elevated line.
Not quite the same - the F goes to a BMT terminal, used by several other BMT lines; there are no other (non-IND) lines using or connecting to the old Fulton el structure.
I must say this is a subject that has bedeviled me since Chrystie St opened. Prior to that there were three divisions and every route was either IRT,BMT or IND. Even the BMT #2(RR) service to Forest Hills was a BMT route even though it ran on the IND in Queens.
The B was essentially a blending of two services; the IND BB and the BMT T. When the the Manhattan Bridge troubles started about twelve years ago the B sometimes runs on Broadway, but the B West End Shuttle always runs entirely on the BMT.
The D was an still is primarily an IND route that was rerouted to the BMT south of Bway-Lafayette, until.... the Manhattan Bridge troubles.
The EE replaced a popular BMT service,Bway-Forest Hills yet I believe it was maintained at the Jamaica IND Yard.(I could be wrong on that)
The KK,later K was a BMT route that was simply routed to the IND in Manhattan as oppossed to Canal St which was the ancestoral home of the old Bway-Bkyln Shortline service.
The QB,later Q was a BMT route, until(here we go again) the Manhattan Bridge troubles. Yet I still think of it as a BMT route using the IND temporarily.
The S 6 Av Shuttle,Grand St Shuttle or 63 St Shuttle was an all IND route until the past year when it ran on Bway and carried Yellow route signs.
Which brings up another point; the B,D,Q, and S 6 Av all can carry either orange route signs for 6 Av or yellow for Bway, so are they IND or BMT?
These of course are only my opinions. I'd like to hear how some of my colleagues out there would classify these routes.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Both divisions are now technically combined. On maps a few years ago, mention of IRT, BMT, & IND was nonexistent. Because the B division is so big, Control Center seperates the BMT from IND routes for reporting purposes. When a train crosses into a ":new" territory, the crew is required to change their radio frequency from B1 to B2 or B2 to B1 whichever is appropriate. Yes, thre old EE's cars were maintained at Jamaica Yard.
Bill: Forgive my ignorance but was does RDO stand for?
Thanks,Larry,Redbird R33
RDO = Regular Day Off
I always called them based on the location of the train at the time. I got into that habit from the old days when the subway maps actually said "BMT in Brooklyn" for both the B & D lines. When the Manhattan Bridge madness started I referred to the B & D trains on the Broadway BMT as BMT trains and those on 6 Ave as IND trains.
Wayne
Wayne; This is one of those little conundrums that can drive you mad one minute and yet make railfaning so interesting the next. I keep a list of what lines I've ridden and used to do it by division since that was what I grew up with;ie three divisions. Chrystie Street put a monkey wrench in my well ordered system,not to mention the later Manhattan Bridge follies.
In truth the BMT never left and is still with us(with a few exceptions such as the Culver Shuttle and 168 St-Jamaica). Those marvelous els,open cuts, raised embankments, surface rights-of way all make for very interesting riding, while the original subterranean IND only ventures above ground for a senic view of the Gowanus Canal.
(Alright so you can see the Manhattan Skyline if you look the other way).And here I am an IRT fan heaping all this praise on the BMT. August Belmont must be turning in his grave.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,
You're right - It certainly can make one go crazy. I think I will always hold on to our beloved BMT, IND and IRT lables. I do say A and B division at times, but not too often. I also do this on the Bus side with TA and OA. I really don't like the TA's new division names. I must be a rebel, because I don't like the MTA/NYCT name at all. I still ask myself what was wrong with NYCTA.
Another thing (with the NYCT name) is that on subways cars and buses. It seems very strange to have a bus with a decal that reads: "New York City Bus" or a subway car whose decal reads "New York City Subway". I think a decal reading "New York City Transit" makes more sense.
Wayne
So I'm not the only one who thinks the exact same thing.
I guess the TA must think it's riders are morons who can't tell the difference between a bus and a train.
And I also agree with you on the NYCT vs. NYCTA.
"NYCTA" just looks and sounds better, for some reason. Seems more "commanding" (the best I can describe it, anyway).
Same goes for the so-called Long Island Bus.
"Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority" sounds much better.
And how about MTA Bridges and Tunnels?
I wanna puke every time I see or hear that!!!
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE "TRIBOROUGH BRIDGE AND TUNNEL AUTHORITY"!!!!!!!!!!!
And I guess MaBSTOA is now some strange word that gets me weird looks every time I say it . . .
< Re: removing "Authority" from "friendly" agency names >
The MTA (shouldn't we just say "MT") decided, in the post cold-war world, that "Authority" sounded too, well, authoritarian. I guess the new names are fuzzy and friendly.
But is not to worry, Komrad, _legally_ it's _still_ "New York City Transit Authority", "Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority", and so on...
There is another MTA down in Baltimore, but it stands for the Mass Transit Administration of the Maryland Department of Transportation.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, I think the State of Maryland likes "Administration". Ex. Their DMV is called MVA - Motor Vehicle Administration.
Wayne
The only good thing that came out of that MTA name game was renaming the Metro-North Commuter Railroad simply the Metro-North Railroad.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah! I'd bet that some person(s) got a fortune to think of these new names. Go figure!
Wayne
Or perhaps a lifetime pass for free travel.
The "consultant" that recommended the name and logo change received $3 million, if I recall correctly.
I would charge only $1.2 million to tell the MT(A) that the old logo and names were just fine.
--Mark
Find the Triborough Tunnel on a map. That's the reason they gave to the press. I think 'Bridges and Tunnels' is much better suited to the agency; Triborough' in the name implies only 3 boroughs are served, or they are only in charge of the Triborough Bridge.
-Hank
What was Triborough when they made the change? Sixty years old or so? And for the past 35 the people on Staten Island have had a pretty good idea Triborough/MTA was running the Verrazano.
Between that and the "New York City Bus" designation, the MTA must have decided to label everything they run so that even the most idiotic person couldn't mistake what it was (we've come a long way from when the state put "Omnibus" on its license plates)
Wayne: I couldn't agree more. I never did like the MTA name as it could be used for any metropolitan area anywhere. Now take London Transport or Metropolitano de Madrid or Toronto Transit Commission. There not ashamed to say where they operate.
I know I raised the problem of TA/OA bus routes here before and I still am puzzelled by that byzantine relationship.
I like the old designations of the three divisions. Your right though it does seem a little superfluous to have a label reading "New York City Bus." Well this is New York City and yes it is a bus. Talk about redundancy.
If you don't mind please contact me at RedbirdR33 @hotmail.com. I would like to talk about the aforementioned TA/OA Manhattan Routes.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I guess I'm a real `living in the past' type of guy -- not only d think `New York City Bus' is so obvious to the point of usslessness (unless someone steals an M-104 and drives it to Wyoming, I guess), I was never that fond of the original M-Transit logo, let alone the new design. It may be I associate it with the onset of the graffiti plague and the height of deferred maintenance, but I prefer the old TA logo on the R-32s through the R-40s, or even the earlier `New York City Transit System' one they put on the R-26s through the R-33/36 mainlines.
Also the 1967 post-Chrystie subway map with the TA logo on it and all the short-lived lines (NX, RJ, etc.) was the coolest looking one, after the three-color model of the 50s and early 60s.
It is interesting that the TA still uses the old divisional designations on the red emergency exit information signs posted at the ends of all subway platforms. They give the station name,line, and a track diagram. They use names such as IRT Broadway-7Av Line,BMT Nassau Line and IND Crosstown Line.
Larry,Redbird R33
You're right - they sure do. They even say, "You are here". I personally still use IRT, BMT, and IND (or 8th Ave.) when referring to various lines. For instance, the N/R in Manhattan is still the BMT Broadway line to me. Ditto with IRT 7th Ave. and IRT Lexington Ave. The L is still the Canarsie to me, while the 7 is still the 7 and the J is still the J. The Brighton, Sea Beach, Culver, and West End don't need any explanation.
The A will always be the A, with or without the R-10s.
Yes, why did they get rid of the old TA logo. If you still want to see it, take a ride to Coney Island on the F. It's on a electric substation structure that's located just before where the F connects with the D at West 8th Street.
Yes, why did they get rid of the old TA logo. If you still want to see it, take a ride to Coney Island on the F. It's on a electric substation structure that's located just before where the F connects with the D at West 8th Street. Bring back the old TA logo!
You needn't go that far. I believe that most R-38s have the old logo on the #1 end bulkhead.
Didn't the red NYCT logos get put on the R38s during the GOH? I don't remember seeing them there before then.
Wayne
Didn't the R-10s have the TA logo on their end bulkheads at one time? There is a head end photo in Under the Sidewalks of New York of an R-10 in the teal and white paint scheme with the logo plainly visible. I remember that paint scheme very well, but can't recall seeing the TA logo.
Only a handful of R-10s got the TA logo when they repainted them in the blue-and-white World's Fair color scheme.
BTW: What really looked awful was when they stuck those MTA logos over the TA plaques that were half the size of the originals. As much as taking away the blue doors and the illegible front end route sign, I think rthose messed up the look of the R-32s.
The R-32s originally had the same front end route and destination roller curtains that the other R units before them had. It's the electronic signs they currently have which I find objectionable. I remember those cars when they were brand new and miss the blue doors the most; that was their trademark.
Oh yes, I've seen that logo on the R-38s. Nice to see it there and I'm glad the MTA hasn't decided to get rid of it. But the logo I meant to say was the old "ta" logo with the T and the A in squarish lower case letters connected to each other. It's the one that apperared on the sides of the R-32s, R-36s (the only IRT cars to wear that great logo), R-38s, and R-40s. I wish other IRT cars that ran on the 2 line had the "ta" logo, but they already had the boring "M" logo applied to their sides. When I was a kid, seeing the "ta" on BMT/IND cars made me jealous of those who got to ride them. So did the blue doors on the sides of the R-32 and the front of the R-42.
Hey..at least some intepid souls have been determined to keep "Sea Beach", "Culver", and "Brighton" alive..at least semi-officially...
Those titles still appear on subway maps as labels next to the appropriate route. In addition, the R-32s and R-38s have those titles on their side route roller curtains for each pertinent route. For example, on an N of R-32s, you'll see N/Astoria-B'wy-Sea Beach.
I have always considered the B and D as being IND routes. In fact, I think of the D whenever the R-1/9s come up in discussion, probably because the very first IND train I ever rode on was a D of those venerable veterans on April 30, 1967. Yep, 32 years last Friday. So was my first express dash up CPW on November 24 of that year. To quote Nat King Cole in one of his songs, "Well, the years have gone by, too fast, it seems..."
The Q is a BMT route, as far as I'm concerned, since it carries a letter which was part of the BMT letter code when it was implemented. I see it as being temporarily routed up 6th Ave. Temporary is a relative term anyway.
Speaking of the Q, I can vaguely remember seeing such a train in July of 1967. The letter up front looked big, so I assume it would have been a train of R-32s. The R-27/30s still had Q-Broadway/Brighton signs at the time.
Yes, one may pick an RDO relief job in which one day you will be all IND, another day all BMT and another a line which traverses both divisions. Breakdowns of lines for pick purposes: North: A, C, H, J/Z, L, M. Queens: E, F, G, R. South: B, D, N, Q.
Paul, here's something very interesting while on the subject of the original Transit line designations:
On the Willy B. fan trip friday I handed out some 'souveniors' to the gang -- DOT created Willy B Reconstruction brochures (I could perhaps send you one?) -- that mention the work that is to happen in the coming months. All over the booklet are references to the 'reconstruciton of the BMT transit structure'. In this day and age you would have thought that the authors would have the booklets read 'reconstruction of the NYCT structure'. So, this city produced document is in a sense a 'throwback' in it's use of the terminology for the Broadway line.
Would love to here your opinion on this.
Doug aka BMTman
Since you cant send to everyone- can you summarize and post on SubTalk?
< Paul, here's something very interesting while on the subject of the original Transit line designations: >
< On the Willy B. fan trip friday I handed out some 'souveniors' to the gang -- DOT created Willy B Reconstruction brochures (I could perhaps send you one?) -- that mention the work that is to happen in the coming months. All over the booklet are references to the 'reconstruciton of the BMT transit structure'. In this day and age you would have thought that the authors would have the booklets read 'reconstruction of the NYCT structure'. So, this city produced document is in a sense a 'throwback' in it's use of the terminology for the Broadway line. >
< Would love to here your opinion on this. >
Well, the short answer is that the BMT as a corporate entity lasted until 1943, having passed the properties over which it was a holding company to the City of New York in 1940. So, for dates after that, it is not always possible to consistently follow the reasoning one or another agency uses to refer to something as "BMT".
To be more specific, with railroads especially, lease agreements, mortgage arrangments, covenants and lines of ownership often survive merger or even public acquisition. If construction and lease arrangements show this as a "BMT structure" that may be accurate, though no BMT exists per se.
To give a fictitious example, if there were a covenant on the deed of some land conveyed to the Brooklyn, Flatbush & Coney Island (now Brighton Line) stating that "Harold W. Blodgett and his lineal descendents shall forever have the right to free passage on the road so long as rail service exists" Harold W. Blodgett VI might today have a legally enforceable right to a pass from the MTA to ride the D train.
To give a real example, when the Penn Central went belly up, some long forgotten leased lines like the Providence & Worcester sprang back to life and started running trains. Closer to home, When the BRT went bankrupt, the trolley companies, such as Brooklyn City Railroad, resumed independent existance as operating companies.
More than you wanted to know?
Yes, I sure would like a copy of the Willy B Reconstruction brochure. Please communicate with me at paul@rapidtransit.net
Are Train Operators and Conductors credentialed by equipment and line, or simply given a green light to all equipment?
For example, if you can operate an R-46, can you also operate an R-68 without spending more time in the classroom? Further, can you switch from say the "A" to the "B" without going back to class?
Thanks.
Chip
B division train operators in school car trained in all revenue equipment except for the R110b which has all the crew needed for its operation.
A division same applies including the tech train R110a.
A division train operators need training on R44/46 equipment since 44/46 differ from SMEE equipment (Self mapping electrical equipment)
I just happened on the following page and since we
had been on the topic a few days ago I thought I'd post
the link: Brooklyn Trolley Museum
i know that they were mentioned in 1989 but i never saw them.. As well as in puerto rico we are getting the ones from chicago.
Are they good?
On Thursday last week a friend and I decided to go downtown on the EL. We waited at the Bridge-Pratt Terminal for about 15 - 20 minutes for a train during the evening rush hour. Then finally 2 trains of M-4s came in, and were put into the yard. I dont know why. All I do know was they brought out a train of Almond Joys to take over. All of a sudden there was an announcement saying EXPRESS TO 11th STREET. 11th street ws the first stop. So of course we bought got on and decided to time the ride. Well hold your breath. It was an astonishing 12 minutes from Bridge to 11th street. We went through all the stations close to or on full speed except Church Street, York Dauphin but after the last car cleared the curve he floored it again. He even sped through the slow zone on the former Spring Garden Street I-95 Speedway. Of course he had to slow down for the turn into 2nd street,but then sped through the tunnel straight to 11th street.I wish I had my video camera for that one.If anyone has had similar experience please post about Septa. I dread when the MFSE goes all M-4s, because of the fact they are so unreliable such as the incident mentioned above with the M-4s. SEPTA is of course aware of there problems by stationing a faithful BUDD as a protect train at Spring Garden during the week. I figured I would let all you SUBTALKERS now of this ride.
[If anyone has had similar experience please post about Septa.]
I was back east in Philly during Christmas. A group of friends, and I think you know one named Matt, were riding on SEPTA on the Monday after Christmas. We went out to Milbourne to take pictures of the comings and goings of the evening rush hour from the crossover bridge located there. When we were returning to Bridge-Pratt we caught a train of Budd cars, as back then the rush hour was about 50/50 M3/M4, and luck was with us.
Anyway, a train of M4's became disabled at 8th Street due to door problems. Our train was the train immediately behind the stricken one. We were in the front car, of course, and we were talking to the motorman of our train and listening in on the radio. When the superviors finally got the train of M4's rolling again, they made our train an express to Margaret-Orthodox. We had planned to bail out at 2nd Street to catch some pictures, however the promise of an express ride was enough to hang in.
It was a quick ride from 5th Street to M/O; however, I find the timed signals leading into the stations cause one to perceive that the service is slower than the old days. Although expertly handled by the motorman, the train, fully packed with people, had a difficult time in regaining speed after having to come to an almost complete stop at the signal located at the beginning of each station platform. I didn't time the trip, but it was a great experience!
The Budd cars still have a lot of get-up and go. However, they don't perform like they did when they were newer. I am one who remembers when they were brand spanking shiney new. I'm thinking that SEPTA had eliminated all but essential maintenance for the cars by that time, as the cars would be, sadly, going to Budd car heaven soon.
-Jim K.
Chicago
Heading into Philly from Trenton. The NJT ride in (reverse peak!) was rathert uneventful - except for the engineer reading his newspaper the whole way down (another story for another day). We got into Trenton in one piece howevere, and got the Septa train to Philly. Bear in mind that septa's stuff looks like it hasn't been rebuilty since the 70's :) Anyway, as the train leaves, my friend quickly notes the scent of the traction motors. But the train gets moving along nicely anyway. I'm watching out the front (through the cab), and I'm noticeing - we're going about 78 and the engineer still has the controller in full power. Hey, wow, we're doing 85, and he's still got the thing in full tilt! 90.... 92...... 95.... We maxed briefly at 98, and were doing 90+ for a few min. Full power all the way, so I guess that's all those Silverliners can do. I'm not sure what the MAS for those thing are, the speed control wasn't complaining any. Nobody else was either. Not been on a Septa train that went that fast since then. BTW - the NJT run from like Princton to Trenton is quite a few miles - and darn straight, how come the Arrows only go 80 along there? I've heard there were problems from the last rebuild - but if that's been solved, can't they bump the speed up? also, do the AEM hauled NJT trains on the NEC go any faster?
Yes I do know Matt. He is good peoples. One question, and you mentioned the signals. Supposedly they automatically go to red if train hasnt passed in more then 10 minutes,making the train slow for all signals. Is there any truth to that,and why is it like that. And your righ the Budds did look a hell of a lot better new then they do now, but are still great cars in my opinion.
I have heard of that type of slotting of signals. I know that this not true on the Market-Franfort Elevated Line. If a signal is cleared by normal means or fleeting it is clear and will only go to red after the towerman puts it to stop or train passes it. SEPTA complies with FRA rules and this not FRA or nobody elses rules. Your story is incorrect.
I haven't heard of that type of slotting of signals. I know that this is not true on the Market-Franfort Elevated Line. If a signal is cleared by normal means or fleeting it is clear and will only go to red after the towerman puts it to stop or train passes it. SEPTA complies with FRA rules and this not FRA or nobody else's rules. Your story is incorrect.
[I haven't heard of that type of slotting of signals. I know that this is not true on the Market-Franfort Elevated Line. If a signal is cleared by normal means or fleeting it is clear and will only go to red after the towerman puts it to stop or train passes it. SEPTA complies with FRA rules and this not FRA or nobody else's rules. Your story is incorrect]
David - while his explanation of how the signals work my not be correct, it is TRUE that there is a RED board on the signal immediately before the station platform of most of the MFSE platforms. It was NEVER like this before, I say the early 1990's when I last rode the MFSE.
However, using some method, and you know I'm not the expert at this or the technicalities of signaling specifically, SEPTA is displaying a "RED" stop with trip arm in the upright position at signals entering the station.
SEPTA might follow FRA rules on the Regional Rail Division, which is as close to railroading as one gets today, but on the MFSE, they are doing something with signals to slow down the trains.
I witnessed it myself in December 1998.
- Jim K.
Chicago
Is it possible the reason SEPTA is displaying red signals in fromt of all the stations is because of the problem the M-4s are having with the braking of the train? Not being a transit expert this is just a thought.
I thought it had something to do with the M-4's cameras, but that doesn't sound right, does it? I know that there were always several grade-time signals on the subway portion of the El (eastbound coming into 34th was one - it's a tricky downslope and you notice that the train is coasting almost immediately out of 40th when you ride here; another is in the river tunnel east of 30th in both directions, as well as on the subway-surface tracks). PATCO has a few of these also, usually at turnouts/crossovers (one is eastbound at 8th-Market) - the indication is red unless a train is approaching, when it goes lunar.
i, was a operator for 9 yrs and them signals always were at the station entering. on the el+broad st subway where i work now
Thanks Jim Im glad Im not the only thinking he is experiencing swer rides on Frankford EL. Actually The rides I have on the Market Street end is close to the same it always has been if Im ot mistaken. Next time you are in Philly give either Matt or Myself a yell.
SEPTA on the elevated and subway division does follow FRA rules. The signaling you are talking about is a form of grade time signaling for a train entering a station. Nothing unusual about this. You just run time to clear the signal to make sure the train is at a predetermined speed before entering the station.
these are known as speed control signals
Yes you are all right about the speed of the those Budd cars. Those babys can really move. I was wondering if anybody out there knows why they slowed the trains down along the I-95 speedway?
[Yes you are all right about the speed of the those Budd cars. Those babys can really move.]
Ron - I don't know if you remember when the cars were brand new, but when the line was changed over to completely Budd car operation the running time from Bridge-Pratt to 69th Street was reduced from 45 minutes to 38 minutes. That is a 15% reduction in running time!
The get up and go, unfortunately, was the cause of a derailment at the York-Dauphin curve shortly after the cars went into service. One person died in the wreck. I'm not sure, but I think one car of a married pair was wrecked and never rebuilt.
Back in the 1960's, the headways at rush hour were a train every 1 3/4 minutes. Do a little calculation and you'll see that most of the 270 cars in the fleet were in use during the rush hour.
- Jim K.
Chicago
I was very young when the Budds took over the El but I remember just about every ride I took on them. I was certainly impressed.
The York-Dauphin derailment took out cars 837-38, I believe.
Even in the early 70's, the headway was less than 3 minutes in the peak of the peak. In the late 70's, with all the bad snowstorms we had, the size of the fleet was sorely noted when only 5-car trains could be fielded for a number of weeks (snow got caught in traction motors and began to take its toll). I remember a few cars got out of the shops with reduced or no motors just to make the line. Service was S-L-O-W! Riders were confused - after years of learning just where the doors would be when the trains came into their stops, the train size changed and the door location often did too.
The worst was the slow order period on the Frankford end. The Budds had to be like wild horses pulling on the reins to motormen who had to keep the speed down.
The best part of the ride to me was the sway of the cars. It really got rolling on the run between 15th and 30th.
I just took a new train today between these stops, with 1151-52 in the consist. The M-4's have the same sway in this section. Good things don't change!
Jim I sure do remember when the BUDD cars were new. I could not wait to take a ride on them. The first time I saw the cars was on a Saturday Evening during one of my mom and dads rituals of Saturday evening shopping along Frankford Ave. All of a sudden this silver train comes flying by. What a sight.
That type of service during rush hour on the MFSE was the same until the mid to late 1980s. Or around the time they killed the ridership when they rebuilt the EL.
More than once I've boarded a train at Bridge and Pratt and heard express to point a(though never as far away as 11th Street-more like York-Dauphin or Berks).
On Saturday I went on a railfan trip of sorts getting some shots of the Frankford El(to be submitted when I have enough money to them developed) and on the Regional Rail(R3 and R5, now I've only the R2 and the Media/Sharon Hill lines before I can say I've ridden every SEPTA rail route).
I was a bit surprised at one place. I was taking a picture of some of the new tilework at Girard when a SEPTA cop(actually in a station) came to me and said "What are you taking these pictures for?" I made up a sob story about a school assignment and he asked me if I had permission to take photos here. I had no idea SEPTA had a policy against taking pictures without permission. In the guard's defense, I was snapping pretty close to some maintenence doors so he may have been suspicious of that.
Otherwise it was an enjoyable Saturday. Though because of trackwork, trains from 15th to 5th ran on the westbound track. In the early evening, a man was struck in the head by a westbound train at 30th St.
[I was a bit surprised at one place. I was taking a picture of some of the new tilework at Girard when a SEPTA cop(actually in a station) came to me and said "What are you taking these pictures for?"]
Unfortunately in our "sue everyone to make your millions society", the age old practice of railfans taking pictures could be in jeprody. I've been challenged myself on some properties (i.e. St. Louis Light Rail, and on SEPTA). Keep in mind that in the 1990 El wreck west of 30th Street, SEPTA had twice as many claims as people who were on the train. Go figure!
Today, most transit agencies are so afraid of lawsuits that they don't want to take any chances. So they run their trains at reduced speed and don't allow pictures to be taken on the property. I'm not saying what you were doing was wrong, just pointing out the hard facts of operating a tranist system in today's society.
PLEASE, let's not start another lawyer bashing thread here!
It is always best to follow the "no trespassing" rule and if asked be respectful and request permission. I've seen some idiots trying to get the once in a lifetime photo and putting themselves in the path of a sixty-plus MPH train. This only puts the railfan community on even thinner ice!
- Jim K.
Chicago
This doesn't bother me so much as you can't find a SEPTA cop when you need one, but there will usually be one bugging you when you are merely taking pictures. The problem comes into play when most don't believe that anyone in his/her right mind would be taking photos of transit vehicles, etc and automatically become suspicious. You would think transit agencies would advise their police recruits that there are hobbyists out there and to treat them with some respect.
The only time I was hassled by a SEPTA cop, strangely enough, was at the 40th St subway-surface portal a few years ago (this on public streets!). I was told that photography made the operators nervous. I politely showed the cop my business card (I'm a government employee) and told him what I was doing. He didn't like it but there was little he could do about it.
The SEPTA permit is a joke, anyway. Try and get one - frame it if you do. They're about as hard to get as dinosaur teeth.
[The only time I was hassled by a SEPTA cop, strangely enough, was at the 40th St subway-surface portal a few years ago (this on public streets!). I was told that photography made the operators nervous.]
The management and union both have little or no respect for the hobby we practice. Management and union alike are paranoid when it comes to cameras. Little do they realize is that the railfan community can be a helpful ally and supporter.
Recently, an operator on the CTA yelled for me to "stick your camera up you _ _ _". Now what could she have been up to that she didn't want it recorded on film? How can any transit agency excel when they must employ workers with an attitude such as this?
The thing that annoys me the most about this attitude is it is us, the riders and taxpayers, that are paying their salary. Try this attitude in private business and you'd be out-of-business soon!
Jim K.
Chicago
Well I think their attitude has to do with things like being visited at home when you call in sick, etc. If the workers feel that management is out to get them (even when they are not doing anything wrong) then any documentary evidence like a person taking photos is going to trigger that feeling. They don't know you're a railfan.
-Dave
And in my case, being suspicious of a 16-year old? SEPTA isn't that clever.
Unless he thought I was truly doing something illegal, but what was the worst I could have done?
Well, it looks like that one picture I took of a Redbird #2 train leaving Burke Avenue in June 1996 may be the only one I ever take of the Redbirds. I was going to get some pictures of Redbirds in 1996 because I heard that would be the last year for them. Of course it's now 1999 and they're still here, though not for too much longer. But if the MTA is going to start complaining about picture-taking, then I'll just have to stop. Oh well, at least that one picture I took was a good one.
I've never been bothered on the subway for taking pictures. Gotten some funny looks but never approached by anyone official. I wouldn't worry about it so much. I mean, if you do get stopped, just say you're a tourist and didn't know. Done deal.
-Dave
Well I'm not sure about if Picture taken in the New York Subway Systerm is legal or not but my son does it every weekend. The only problem he had was at Jay Street taken a picture of a Southbound C Train. A Cleaner complained and was going for a cop. But I don't really see a rule agenst picture taken. The only thing is if your taken a shot in the subway and flash it at an approching train it could interfer with the Train Operators operation. So if your in the subway and want a picture take a back shot or a front shot when the train is not moving.
Does anyone remember the LOW V fantrip on the Dyre Line. Some people went on the Roadbed North of Baychester Ave. Now that was 100% Illegal. Also the T/O on the Dyre Shuttle called control like he was suppose to but nothing was done when it was found to be a crowd from the fantrip.
Here is the rule for taking picture at subway cars. I been taking the picture outdoor because of alot of light.
Your point is well taken. I have been on a number of fan trips, mainly in NYC but also a couple here in Phila, where "fans" take it upon themselves to violate safety rules and common sense to get that great photo, video, etc. It's no wonder we get treated with contempt and scorn from some operating personnel. Cases in point:
R-30 trip several years back - a number of fans went onto the catwalks at Smith-9th, Kings Highway and the Franklin Shuttle.
Fans on the roadbed at 9th Ave, same trip.
Market-Frankford trip last fall - fans on catwalks, standing on platform edge railings (!), and going onto the roadbed (I saw this at both 69th St and Spring Garden).
Other riders see this and think why should they obey the rules when the special riders don't. Operating folks try to warn but get rebuked. Authorities decide it's not worth it to risk fantrips and discourage doing so. Then what?
I'm not even going to mention those who decide to use subway platforms for urinals...
Actually it is against the regulations to take a picture on the subway but don't tell the MTA.Here's the reg;
XVII. CODES,RULES and REGULATIONS of the STATE OF NEW YORK governing the NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT AUTHORITY. (Their caps,not mine)
Chapter XXI Metropolitan Transportation Authority
Subchapter F New York City Transit Authority
Part 1051 Prohibited Uses(Statutory authority: Public Authorities Law 1204 (subd 5-a)
1051.9 (b)
" No person except members of the press who hold working press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department shall take moving pictures or photographs within the limits of the New York City transit system.
This is dated Sept 1,1974 and unless its been changed its still on the books.
If the TA ever enforces this one sub-talk will be based at Sing-Sing.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I for one routinely ignore this arcane regulation. (Oops! This constitutes a discussion of illegal activity!) Let 'em clap me in irons.
Wayne
Wayne: Sing-Sing isn't such a bad place. The railroad runs right through the prison.
Larry,redbirdR33
I been taking pictures of subway cars and buses with moving or without moving also i don't used flash outdoor, but i don't take picture in the subway system. I been enjoy it taking picture of redbirds because they will be soon replace R142.
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
Justin: Years ago the Board of Transportation had a similar regulation. A friend of mine was taking a picture of a BMT streetcar when he was challenged by a BOT official for taking a picture. He simply replied that he was taking a picture of the house accross the street and it wasn't his fault if a streetcar got in the way.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Are you saiding the we not allow to take picture of subway cars or buses? Only press member take picture? Doesn't make any sense to me but i did read the rule about taking the picture of subway cars and buses but the rule didn't said Only Press Member can take picture. Ask David Pirmann about the rule of taking the picture.
Peace out
Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
He simply replied that he was taking a picture of the house accross the street and it wasn't his fault if a streetcar got in the way.
That's a great one! Except now there are no streetcars :(
I was challenged once at Stillwell Ave - I politely replied that I was taking pictures of the trains because I'm a railfan and the officers gave me a wry smile (as if to say, "do you believe this guy") and allowed me to continue my photography.
--Mark
I'm sure this is like a lot of laws on the books -- more honored in the breech than in the observance.
Take our zoning laws. If we were to enforce them, 15,000 harmless businesses would be closed. Here in NYC, there is a political consensus in favor of having laws on the books and not enforcing them -- except against the "wrong" type of people. I think it stinks. But liberals like to pass laws to control people, and conservates enforce them against who they please.
Taking photos in the subway is as illegal as double parking during alternate side of the street cleanings. The bottom line is, in order to satisfy the cranks you can pass as many laws as you want, but if enforcing them would lose more votes than it gained no one will do it.
You want to get ride of the tough Rockefeller drug laws. Start a drag net in the suburbs and colleges, and start sending affluent suburban kids up the river for 15 years for two ounces of something. Maybe a Black person might get in trouble for taking photos in the subway, but I won't. Unless I put on a black trench coat.
A libertarian is a liberal who has been mugged by a Co-op Board.
I use flash underground at all times. However, I try to follow some guidelines when doing so: 1) never fire the flash in the motorman's face 2) avoid getting too many people in the picture (not easy)
3) concentrate on inanimate objects - i.e. walls, tile bands, tablets etc. Most of my train pictures are out-of-doors, this way I don't have to use the flash. I've also taken a few good ones outdoors from the front of the moving train. I use 400 speed Kodak Gold in my Canon WP-1 Sure Shot.
Wayne
Hey Wayne i do the same thing, When is beauiful day, I take picture of Subway and buses.
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
Here, here. I've taken a few pictures through the railfan window on a couple of occasions. One was on a Manhattan-bound B of slant R-40s looking straight ahead down the structure along New Utrecht. You can even see the hardware which is so closely identified with the slants. The other two were taken on a Manhattan-bound Q of R-32s on the embankment portion. The Empire State Building can be seen looming in the distance.
I see this has already gotten a bunch of replies but your information is out of date. I wrote to the MTA Office of the Chairman a couple of years ago and received copies of the relevant law, an excerpt of which is in the Subway FAQ: Photography on the Subway.
Sorry, but this information is already out of date. So, here's the CORRECT AND UP TO DATE information.
Any individual who wishes to take pictures in the subway must have a photo permit (yes, I know this provision was removed during the Kiepper years, but it's back). The person to contact is Alberteen Anderson of NYC Transit Government Relations on the 3rd Floor at 130 Livingston Street, Brooklyn NY 11201. The permit is free and, unless someone has changed his/her mind in the past month or two, is good in any public area of the system at any time of day.
David: Thats good to know. They usually don't get around to changing those archaic laws . I stand corrected.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In the NY Daily News Monday May 3, page 8, is about how tens of thousands of Brooklyn commuters will start their way across the Williamsburg Bridge with the closing of the subway lines for the J,M, and Z riders.
Also in the article is a list of suggested ways to alternate routes to Manhattan from selected stations.
After the Good readers of SubTalk read the article, your most Excellent thoughts are welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Any reports on how the first rush hour without the Willie-B went this morning? From my vantage point high atop Beacon Hill here in Boston, it's tough to get a good view...
Todd, From that view on Beacon Hill EYE have another Mass Transit question ... has the surface carrier started service in the Boston Common ? When I walked to work, at the Custom House from Back Bay, thru the park, EYE saw them many times loaded with happy tourest.
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T,
Do you mean the "rubber tired trolleys"? Oh yeah, they go by my window about 10 times an hour. There are four competitors doing roughly the same thing. I always hear the same part of the schpiel! We also have Duck Tours, though I understand they may have been suspended following the accident in Arkansas the other day.
No not rubber tires ... paddles ... guess that's a got-ya ;-)
Thurston, the problem is you were specifying the wrong park. The Public Garden is adjacent to the Common but considered a seperate entity.
The question, TODD, is are the Swan Boats running?
The Swan Boats have not been running this week; the wx is rotten. Nor have I heard any Ducks go by my window... but I think that is more due to on-going inspections following the recent tragedy in Arkansas.
Opps ... leave it to me to botch up a joke :-(
Haven't been there since the 70's when I rode the PCCs from Riverside to Park Street & took a bus to Old Iron Sides [via two day pass](lived there in early 60's).
I did remember that there was two parks next to each other.
As Gilder Radner would say ... never mind :-(
Mr t__:^)
Another upcoming shutdown to report:
A conductor friend of mine who works for the MBTA commuter rail out of South Station says that as of the 15 May pick, the Southwest Corridor will be shut down from South Station to Readville so that electrification can be completed. This will affect all AMTRAK trains out of South Station, and all MBTA commuter rail trains destined for Attleboro/Providence, Franklin and Stoughton for three months -- except for rush hours M-F when there will be normal service. During diversion hours, all trains will use the Dorchester Branch. Needham trains, which use separate tracks, are expected to continue on a modified schedule to serve SW corridor stations. See the MBTA Web Site and click on "Commuter Rail" to see a map of the system.
I find this interesting since it is now less than two weeks away, and there has been NO public announcement of this yet, nor publication of new schedules for either AMTRAK or the commuter trains.
Todd, I have no idea what was announced locally there but I rerad about this in the Julian Wolinsky on line monthly rail transit on line Fri eve, which means he must have heard sometime earlier. BTW his e-newsletter is an okay read--sort of like the transit column in PTJ used to be but no paper no snails.
David,
Yes, I just got this month's edition Julian's newsletter. The two stories match, which I guess means there's something to it! However none of the media have announced this shutdown yet; nor is there anything on the MBTA Web site. It would be nice for the public to get two weeks' notice for a service change as substantial as this is going to be.
Amtrak has announced that for the next timetable, all shore trains will by-pass Back Bay so they can do work on the line to Rt 128. I assume this means they will retrun to the Dorchester branch previously used during the Orange line reconstuction 79-84. Shuttle service will be provided from South Station to Back Bay.
While most trains will have their running times extended to allow for
extensive single tracking, train #172 will operate non-stop via the Inland route from New Haven to Back Bay. Cars for #472 will operate at the rear of the train and will follow #172 out of New Haven making regular stops to Springfield. Amtrak will provide Ambus service for stops east of New haven.
This re-route is not supposed to last the entire timetable.
The "Dorchester Branch" is really the old New York and New England RR or the Midland Division of the New Haven. It is actually a shorter run than the Boston & Providence main line, and is often used to get reverse moves into or out of Boston during rush hours. The problem is that there is a local shuttle train every 30 or 60 minutes except Sundays to and from Readville. An Amtrak train caught behind the local would be a slow ride.
I suspect that they'll try to get the AMTRAK trains in front of the local MBTA trains.
I take the 4:45 pm weekend MBTA train from Mansfield to South Station (it orginates in South Attleboro as #1812/2812) often. If the AMTRAK NYP-BOS train #164 is running late, the MBTA train is held to run behind it. By the way, that portion of the Main Line is straight as an arrow. You can see #164's headlights a good five minutes before it blows by the station... so it must be 5+ miles of visibility. When I see it coming, I retreat back from the platform. It's quite a surprise for the uninformed who are waiting for a commuter train to lumber to a stop when #164 goes by at 60+ mph... I can't wait to see what happens when ACELA trains roar through!
Todd, YES of course MBTA owes riders adequate notice and should have been advertising this for some time--but where were the media wizards? The Globe, westinghouse newsradio, etc., you would think someone would have noticed.
My error. Here's the MBTA Web site link.
The Astoria Line was signaling as an IRT line and is used by the BMT.
We have a famous old gorilla named Willy B. at the Atlanta Zoo. I think the bridge is like a big gorilla. How is the rush hour today without the Willy B?
SEPTA's Broad Street subway was the prototype for the IND. Broad Street has 4 tracks with express stations. It is signaled however like the IRT with red aspects at home signals for clear signals combined with a green or red aspect. Double rail AC track circuits are used with impedance bonds which the IND never had. All signaling was Union Switch & Signal with air stops and A-5 air switch machines as opposed to A-10 machines used on the IND.
I don't know how much the IND was actually modelled on the Broad St Subway, but I do know that the original Broad St cars were in many ways duplicates of BMT Standards. They may not have looked alike, but that may be where the similarities started. The only big difference, outside of looks, was conductor accommodation - here in Phila, conductors have always been in cabs.
today the broad st subway is #1 man or woman operation
Thouhgt it would be nice for everyone to know who was there for Friday's lovely fan trip. Based on my recollection and what I can tell from the Messages, I believe the following were present (in no particular order):
Todd Glickman
David Pirmann
Sid (and Irene) from NJ
Howard Fein
Larry Littlefield
Bob Anderson
Doug aka BMTman
Dan Schwartz
Peter Rosa
Eric B
(Lou from Brooklyn?)
If I missed you (and I suspect I missed a few), I apologize; if you want, please respond to correct the error. I agree - we should bring nametags for the next fan trip.
Bill, Did you notice any SubTalkers with you who couldn't make the 6PM crossing ?
Mr t__:^)
I wuz there!! Remeber the 6'8" person in a yellow jacket?
I have pleanty of stickers at work and can make up some name tags for the next outing. Not a problem.
No, I did not notice any SubTalkers on my last crossing.
It would have been the cherry on the desert if you had been the engineer at 6 PM. I & probally a few others were there (at 7 PM) in spirit at the front window (got stuck at work when I was hopping to sneak out early)
Mr t__:^)
Hello, again; Does anyone know at what time the first M arrived (and left) Marcy Avenue on 5/3/99?
Backtracking through old ERA Bulletins I find that Composite trailer #2135 was destroyed by fire on June 1,1906 and rebuilt by the IRT into Pump Car 03 in 1907. Car 03 was renumbered 20126 in 1962. Does anyone have more current info on this car? Thanks
Larry,RedbirdR33
On car #100, R-1 (at the Museum), the builder's plate (over the storm door) says:
American Car and Foundry/ACF/Berwick Plant
The builder's plate on later R-1/9 cars say:
ACF/American Car and Foundry/ACF
Berwick Plant (below the American... wording in the center)
Anyone know when the change occured? What cars came with the new plate?
I don't know about the R-1/9 series, but when the R-27/30 series (BMT/IND) were delivered starting around Oct or Nov, 1960, they came with three different builder's plates.
The first few cars had plates which simply said "St. Louis Car Company - Builder", like those on the R-21 and R-22 IRT cars. Later ones said "St. Louis Car Company, a division of General Steel Castings Corp.", and still later ones said "St. Lous Car Company, a division of General Steel Industries, Inc."
I disagree. The all black SLC plate did come with the GSI shield on the R27/30/30a contrat. The red GSI shield came on the R33/36/38/40/40M contract. The R42/44 had the red block lettering "GSI".
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Dear Sir/Madam:
When will the 63rd Street Tunnel be back to normal? Will it be
on May 22nd, 1999 or in June or September? Will the B and Q trains
continue to be as follows:
(B) 145th Street,Manhattan to Coney Island, Brooklyn
Weekdays 9am-5pm.
Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx to Coney Island, Brooklyn
Rush Hours.
(B) 21st Street-Queensbridge, Queens to Coney Island, Brooklyn
Evenings and weekends, with some trains stopping at Dekalb
Avenue and running local on 4th Avenue during 6AM-7AM and
9PM-12Am daily
(B) 36th Street-4th Avenue, Brooklyn to Coney Island, Brooklyn
12AM-6AM daily
(Q) 21st Street-Queensbridge, Queens to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
Weekdays 6am-9pm.
Why do some B trains stop a DeKalb Avenue and run local on 4th Avenue
during the hours of 6AM-7AM and 9PM-12AM daily?
James Li
I've noticed that the vending machines at 59th Street-Columbus Circle offer single trip Metrocards. These are made of the same cardboard used for bus transfer cards given for cash fares. Also, they don't provide the free bus transfers of the regular Metrocards.
Are tokens finally nearing the end?
My guess is that the token will be a memory within 1 to 1 1/2 years.
[Are tokens finally nearing the end?]
The end for tokens is as near as 1 June 1999 in Chicago on CTA. All fareboxes and rapid transit turnstiles have small red post notes on them informing riders to "Use your tokens before they retire".
I'll be sorry to see them go.
BTW, does anyone out there know when the first token was used and what system introduced it?
- Jim K.
Chicago
I heard that all stations in NYC will have MetroCard machines by the end of 2000. I predict that will be the end of the token :-(
I also think that the single trip MetroCards should have a free transfer on them, like a regular MetroCard would have.
Y?
The TA would like to see the Token go bye bye, however if the experience of my employee who tryed a weekly unlimited is at all typical (he had trouble almost every day) the token will be around for a while.
Mr t__:^)
This entire post is personal opinion and is not official MTA or NYCT info
I too would love to see the token disappear--they fall on the floor of the booth and are very hard to find. I have spent three hours looking for a token and yes I have found several in various nooks and cranies in the booths.
Now I must come back to reality- I think that the token will not disppear any time soon. Even with the vending machines NYCT plans to buy there wont be machines in every station. Let's look at the Banking industry-- We have had ATM machines since the 1970s and they have not replaced the human teller. Just go to any bank and there are still long lines. Not everyone will buy from machines and not everyone uses MetroCards. At this time I work a part-time booth at 175 on the A. Many people are still buying 10-20 tokens daily!
Let us say that they will do away with tokens on a given day. The people will raise such a fuss that the tokens will survive--Look what happened to New Coke! (it even cost the CEO his job!)
I have spoken to many people in revenue (While they are at a booth I have worked) and they agree that the token wont go away any time soon. Still to be solved is what to do if the turnstiles are out of order--with a token there is the NRFB (Non Revenue Fare Box)--the black thing chained near the service entry gate. What will happen if there is no token--Cash? Portable MetroCard readers? Both unlikely. Free entry--again unlikely. Call the Police who will have a reader--dream on(Ha-ha).
Here again personal opinion- What I do forsee is a penalty for buying tokens--Maybe it will be $1.50 for a card trip and $2 for a token and even then many will pay the penalty. NJT and the LIRR charge a penalty for buying a ticket aboard the train ($3 for NJT) and still people willingly pay the penalty.
To conclude- short of a miracle, the token will be here for a long time
**disclaimer-- this entire post is personal opinion and not official MTA or NYCT information.**
NRFB (Non Revenue Fare Box)... sounds like an oxymoron if I ever heard one... Is it a fare box that's used for collecting fares taht aren't considered revenue (huh!?) or just a fare box that's not in revenue service? (That would make a little more sense). What exactly is it used for anyway?
Mike
It's also called a "drop box". You DROP stuff into it, but nothing is recorded, electronically. Buses, recently, used to have them. If money goes in, employees will find a way to break in, so it's in your best interest NOT to have/use them.
Mr t__:^)
The box is used if: Crowd condition, General Order, all Turnstiles out of order.
In theory a customer must drop[ a token in the box. We do not empty them- the money train people empty these boxes.
We have to call Jay street when we start to use these boxes and again when we stop using these boxes.
Do people have troblem with Metrocard?? I see people buying more token than Buying Metrocard. But i used Halffare Metrocard since Oct,98 and i don't have troblem with my Metrocard. So look like token will stay there for a long time and i think people don't trust Metrocards.
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
P.S Any one have revieve the test score of "Station Agent"?
It may be that the "Unlimited" MC gives customers more trouble then the "value" MC, like you have. However, I think the problem has more to do with ware & tear on the R/W head in the Turnstile. The Station Agents have a cleaning pad, the same as is used to clean the farebox version, but it doesn't always get it all, and some turnstile R/W heads are BEYOND cleaning. I also think that the TA & Cubic know about the problem, so maybe it will get better s-o-o-n.
I it doesn't they'll be shooting themselves in the foot relative to their interest in eliminating the token.
Mr t__:^)
I had an occasional problem with my 7-day MC last October. Sometimes a turnstile would let me through after repeated swipes, sometimes it wouldn't. I did notice a buildup of dirt on my card's magnetic strip after a few days, and after cleaning it off, it helped a little. The Transit Museum had MC holders for sale, so I took them up on it. Good idea, IMHO.
One question: how fast should you swipe the card? I would imagine the turnstile may not read it properly if you swipe too fast.
I've seen people timidly swiping their card thru pretty slowly and the turnstile constantly indicating Please Swipe Again. Whereas I generally swipe the card at walking speed and go right thru. I only have to reswipe once in a while and it's usually because I tried to do without stopping and didn't get it firmly into the reader. So I think medium to fast is probably better than little-old-lady speed....
-Dave
Dave is about right ... it's just something you have to get used to.
There's a LOT of information going back & forth, so it's realy amazing that it works at that speed. The more features they add the more amazing it gets.
P.S. Our depot uses a 486 based PC to process all the bus probes (five lanes) & the modem that talks to the mainframe isn't state of the art, but it works.
Mr t__:^)
A maintainer was working on the computer inside the booth and I asked about the machine.
The main computer in each station is a 486. The computer inside the booth is a Z80-and it talks to, gets info from the computer downtown as well as the main computer in each station.(the main computer is near the tursntiles. Go to the far left turnstile and note the space to the left.
If it's battleship grey, it's the same box, but I had better not say more ... i.e. security issues.
Maybe the MTA should add another job on the list called "Turnstile Cleaner". So they can clean all the Turnstiles.
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a.Mean DJ)
I believe all the "Station Agents" have the cleaning pads & are expected to come out of the booth & clean the Read/Write Heads, when there aren't lots of folks in line.
I don't know how frequently the TA replaces that unit to do a "PM" on it, but maybe more frequent "service" would help.
At this depot I've noticed that some of the parts are wareing out and need to be adjusted/replaced.
Mr t__:^)
The rule is to clean the reads when we start our shift.
About the same speed you swipe your credit (or debit )card thru the reader at the local supermarket..I've noticed those are pretty fast,too; if you swipe those too slow..it asks you to swipe again..I believe whomever programs those figures most folks are electronic savvy and are in some sort of a hurry....
Just wanted to follow up on a Saturday post. There is at least one train set of R40M's on the N. I saw it twice today (Monday) the north motor was 4454, I was unable to catch any other numbers or th end sign. My office does not have a window. Train Spotting from the Boss' office is done at my own risk >G<.
yeah i just saw a few today, numbered 4488 and 4470. also i saw a few other weird things like a N train which was a daimond shape but it was brown background like the J M and Z trains, and it was a R40M (4470). Also I saw a few Q trains with the old yellow (like the N and R trains). I know that its old, like from when the slants were on the B and the R68's were on the Q. Also I saw 2 W trains, one on a N slant and on a Q slant.
laterz
BlackDevl
A Brown Diamond N??? That's a new variation - I've also seen white-letter N's on their usual gold background - case in point is Slant 40 #4320. You never know what you'll see signed up these days!
Wayne
Does anyone know where this can be purchased? Specifically:
At which Center City Stations?
At Bridge & Pratt (Market/Frankford El)?
At any Regional Rail Stations outside of Center City (especially Torresdale and Trenton?).
Thank you.
[Does anyone know where this can be purchased? Specifically:
At Bridge & Pratt (Market/Frankford El)?]
I know that the day-pass is sold at the Bridge-Pratt El station, just around the corner from the Dunkin Donuts shop. The booth is just opposite from the regular fare collection cashier booth.
They were selling day-passes the Monday after Christmas there. I already had one though. It's handy to get on at Bridge-Pratt because of the large parking lot located right next to the El yard.
BTW, the way they do the day-pass on SEPTA is they have a day-pass validation sticker that the cashier (they call them cashier's in Philly), applies to a regular transfer with already imprinted with the date.
I'm not sure about hours the booth is open, or any other locations, but I'd say the 69th Street probably also sell them.
Jim K.
Chicago
You can buy them wherever tokens and Transpasses are sold. This includes Bridge-Pratt (er, Frankford Terminal, sorry!), 69th Street, Olney, Fern Rock, 30th St (both the Regional Rail side as well as the El stop), Walnut-Locust, Suburban Station, Market East, the 15th St sales office, the Transit Museum, and I believe, 5th St. The hours vary at some locations but at the bigger terminals (i.e. Frankford, 69th, Olney, Fern Rock) these are generally open all day, as are the commuter stops downtown.
By the way, you get one ride on the Airport Line with a Daypass. Good luck returning (hint - take the 37 bus to the Broad St subway at Snyder or to the 36 subway-surface line at Island Ave).
Call me naive, but is this Daypass good on SEPTA Regional Rail and PATCO also, or just on the Market-Frankford El and Broad Street lines? If it's the former, that's TREMENDOUS savings!
Since I originated this post I'll try to answer it...my understanding is that
the daypass is NG on PATCO, and only good on Regional Rail between 30th St, Suburban Sta, and Market East, and only a single trip on the Airport Line. It is good on all city transit division subways, els, trolleys, buses, trackless trolleys.
Since I'm a New Yawker who is only going to visit SEPTA one of these days, if there are any Philly area folks out there please correct me if I wrote something incorrect. Thanks
And BTW - my understanding is the pass can be purchased at Frankford Terminal (Bridge and Pratt), correct?
Yes to all your questions/comments. By the way, even without Regional Rail and PATCO, the DayPass is still a bargain, considering the $1.60 base fare.
PATCO is a relative bargain at any measure. Fares have been stable for the past 16 years, although this year there has been talk of a fare increase.
I saw the strangest thing today on the Broadway line. I was waiting at 49th St. for a downtown train at about 5:10, and a train of of R46s pulls in with A BROWN DIAMOND "R" on the front!!! The LED side destination signs read the normal "Broadway Local to 95th St. Brooklyn"
Anyone else seen this train?
Mike
Oh brother! I was just reading about the Brown Diamond "N" one of our fellow contributors saw today and thought to myself perhaps there might also be a Brown Diamond "R" out there as well - sure enough.
The Brown Diamond "R" was a late 80s remnant of the old Banker's Special, from 95th Street to Chambers Street, only in the Rush Hours.
RedbirdR33 more than likely has the exact dates when this service operated.
Wayne
Now I have a question, why would they use the brown sign instead of the yellow one? Any particular reason or just a strange T/o?
Mike
Not a clue on that one - maybe the same fellow who signed his "B" train up as "V" a couple of months ago was running this odd "R".
Wayne
The R 32-38 version of the side route sign would read R Nassau St 4 Av.
Riders used to also know it as the Chambers St. Express.
Back in 10/79 when the Diamond Jubilee Edition of the Subway Map was issued all route were color-coded according to the main line of operation.
Red: 1,2,3
Dark Green 4,5,6
Purple: 7
Light Blue: JFK Exp
Dark Blue: A,AA,CC,E
Orange: B,D,F
Light Green: GG
Brown: J,M
Gray: LL
Yellow: N,QB,RR
Black: S 42 St, S Franklin
The one exception to this was the RR Nassau St Lcl which was shown as a yellow diamond. This lasted until the May 24,1987 map when the by then R Nassau St Lcl became a brown diamond.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wayne: Here's what I have on post-Chrystie St Nassau St-4 Av service.
RJ Jamaica-Nassau St-4 Av Lcl 11/27/67-6/28/68
Identification "RJ" in a red circle
RR Nassau St Local 7/1/68-5/5/86
Identification "RR" in a green circle 7/1/68-10/26/79
"RR" in a yellow diamond 10/29/79-5/5/86
R Nassau St Local 5/6/86-12/9/88
Identification "R" in a yellow diamond 5/6/86-5/22/87
"R" in a brown diamond 5/25/87-12/9/88
The R Nassau St Lcl was then replaced by the M Myrtle Av-Nassau St-West End Service.
Only the May 24,1987 edition of the subway map ever carried the brown diamond.
What I find interesting about this thread is the brown N someone saw.The N hasn't gone to Nassau St since 1917 and then it was as BRT #4.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I have been reading several recent posts about a diamond, brown N. No way! Can't be! Whoever asked the original question, car number please?
i think i said it in my previous post. it was a R40M. I saw it on 42ndSt/Times Square about 4:00 maybe. I believe it was 4470. I dont know if that was the exact car number, as the brown diamond N was on the back, but i am pretty sure. and i saw a Q R40 Slant with the round-yellow q signs, they werent diamonds.
laterz
blackdevl
Yellow "Q" signs DO exist - I've seen them many times. By the way, yellow "B" and "D" signs also exist.
Wayne
[Yellow B D and Q signs] There are Gold and Orange B D Q and N (I don't know about F] at Coney Island all over the stations. I've seen Q trains with orange Qs on the front and Yellow Qs on the side and between cars...
I have seen an orange "N" with white letter. I think it's in car #4320. I think the "F" has remained orange. Yes I have seen the yellow "B" and "D" signs up at Coney Island station.
Wayne
Orange "N" with white letter is not really orange. The original delivery of signs on R46s had a white N in a yellow bullet. When lit up, it looked orange. Any signs now are black Ns on yellow bullets. Fs are only orange.
yeah I just saw a 2 cars today (5117-5118) with yellow B signs. And i saw yet another W diamond train (4540). It looks like a W but it could be a yellow diamond M, but it doesnt like a M upside down (unless the M is like the one on the old NYCTA logo). well thats it for today.
laterz
blackdevl
There has been discussion of a rush hour W service which would mimic the old EE line of a few years back. Supposedly, it would terminate at Whitehall St., making the W a very appropriate marking.
Saw it. S/b r at 57-7, 9pm, R46 6100. Brown diamond R on the south motor.
Brown Diamond ?????? That Strange!!!!!!!
Strange,yes.In 1987 coming home on the J train,I saw a brown Diamond R on a BMT version of the redbirds coming into Myrtle Ave.More than likely it was a M Train.
at one time there was a rush hour "R" train running from 95th st Bay Ridge to Chambers Street/Nassau St which would make that color an option for R service operating instead of going up bway but via the Nassau st cut into Broad st (JMZ) and terminate at Chambers St (JMZ)
The gold and the orange are key distinnctions. They were introduced in the late 80's when there were sepereate d and B lines due to Manhattan Bridge trouble. The Orange D represented trains that ran between 205th st and Bway-Lafayette or Grand St on Sixth Ave. The Gold ran from Broklyn term. over the bway line terminating at 57th St. The transfer point was 34th St.
For an excellet example of city politics, one should examine the distribution of R68s when they frst arrived to the Gold D's and the crappy, pracitclly non-functioning R40.s to the Orange D. Hmmmm. How did that happen?
Oh, I can remember seeing slant R-40s on one of the split B and D routes on the Broadway line. At first I did a double take: what is going on here? After studying the map, it all made sense. I even rode one of those trains; those slants were anything but slow on the express runs.
This was the R40 before the General Overhaul, correct? Deferred maintenance did a number on them and they were in sad shape for a while there. Much better now, thank you.
Wayne
Put it this way: deferred maintenance did a number on just about the entire fleet. I still think the Triplexes, had they been retained, would have kept right on going.
I've never seen a brown diamond N, but I've seen a brown circle N on some Slant R-40s. What service could that have been?
Its just that the paper on the sign are old and just like anything else kinda rotted out!
Trevor
Those signs are not paper - they are mylar, which is a kind of thin flexible plastic, not much given to decay due to age. Anyway, the signs on the R40 date back only as far as 1989.
Wayne
I have seen a brown circle N sign too. And yes, they are on Slant R40s, but it does look kinda dirty...
And, of course, in 1917, the BMT number code didn't exist. It wasn't adopted until the Triplexes began to arrive in the late 20s.
Steve: Thats a good point. Your absolutely correct.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R46 uses the same end sign box as the R40 & R42. For example, they all have a Broadway B & Q (yellow background) and 6th Ave. B & Q (orange background). There is also a brown diamond R (in case that service is ever bought back), and the standard Broadway R with the yellow background. Whenever you see a letter with an improper background (or diamond), the motorman preparing the train for service erred by putting up the sign with the wrong background. BTW: when R68 cars were assigned to the Q, they only had a diamond yellow Q in the box. They did not have a round one on an orange background. The R68A cars had that error rectified when new signboxes were manufactured for them.
I would have figured that by now, all the sign boxes that could be standardized, were. R40/40M/42/44/46/68/68A all should have the same front sign box, and the same signs, rather than each class of car having a different type of curtain. The side signs on the 40/40M/42 and the 68/68A should also be identical; but I believe the destination signs on the 60' cars are smaller....but the letters should be the same.
-Hank
Was waiting at Lex Ave this evening for a downtown F and a Queens bound E pulled in (R32s). Everyone's favorite orphan, R32 #3348, was in the consist and it sported different number plates. The typeface and style resembled that on the Braille signs one sees on the pillars. Anyone else seen that one?
What is on most of that fleet is bad enough, but this is going too far. Makes me long for the buff on blue like #3649 in my collection.
And at the OTHER end are "stick-on" numerals in the traditional NYCT font, which dates back to the R-1s. Inside it gets even better. At one end, there are the right white numerals on black with a white border at the top; at the other are little square numerals in even smaller square stickers.
An Odd Fellow (or Lady, depending on your point of view) is #3348.
Wayne
Around 11:30 am Monday I was at Dekalb ave leaving school. I was waiting there for a while for the D or Q trains to show up and nothing came. Even the B train did not Bypass the station so i knew something was up. An N train appeared on its tracks and the conductor announced that the N would runh the local on the Brighton line to Coney island. So I got on. Of course there were many riders that when they saw the N show up and not the D or Q they just stood there as if somehow between Atlantic ave and West 8th st. we would somehow turnoff of the D line and reappear on the N line. My question to any one what happend that delayed the B,Dand Q on Monday?
I've seen that happen many times. When the D is rerouted over the F from W 4th, usually due to a problem on the bridge, the F riders will stand packed on the platforms as the platform and train announcements scream that the train is running as an F. The train then runs empty to Brooklyn. And it is not a language problem. I've seen people ask the conductor where the train is going and STILL not get on. Like you said, they think the train will magically turn off and take the streets or something.
There must have been a disruption of some sort along 6th Ave., since the B, D, and Q all operate there, and all three use the bridge. Apparently, Montague St. tunnel traffic wasn't affected.
The Manhattan Bridge is still standing, right?
Dear Sir/Madam:
When the Williamsburg Bridge reopens in October 1999 to the
BMT J, M and Z trains, will the J, M and Z trains continue to
operate as they were before the construction? Why did they cut the
BMT M trains to Chambers Street during weekdays 9am-3pm? Will they
ever reinstitute a service along the Chrystie Street Cut, like the
old K and KK service? When the BMT J, M and Z trains head for Queens,
why are they considered southbound, instead of northbound?
James Li
Well, here goes:
I don't see why J, M, and Z service would not be restored to what it was before the bridge closed.
The M runs to Bay Parkway only during rush hours. Chances are ridership or econimics prompted this service implementation.
It is very unlikely we'll ever see another service such as the old KK. IMHO, that connection should have been tied into the Nassau Loop in the other direction.
I can't answer the last question.
Is the elevated section with the ornate railings immediately after Marcy Ave (built like that, I think, in anticipation of putting a station there?) going to be simply rebuilt or is a "new" EL replacement going in to straighten out that "S" curve?
--Mark
I believe the el section will be removed and the "S" curve will be straightened out - at least that's what we were told on a tour of the bridge a couple of years back. Seems to me that there is also more history to the ornate railings than just a station location, but I don't remember the details - anyone out there know?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Didn't the original route go down to a ferry landing?
It did, indeed.
And until 1989 or so, J riders had a free transfer to the B24 that took them there.
-Hank
Speaking of ferries I noticed today while crossing the Willy B.(on a bus)that the piling for the old Williamsburg Ferry are still visible at the end of Broadway. The ferry company went out of business in 1908. Its too bad there not running now.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Do you think the pilings are for the original ferry? Or maybe for the emergency ferry the Coty ran during the WB shutdown under Koch.
I thought the Broadway Ferry ran later than 1908.
Part of the structure is being rebuilt, but the alignment, and the curve, will remain.
AAAARRRGGHHH!!!
Why don't transit agencies act like "real railroads" and improve their ROWs where they need improvement???? Eliminating S curves has to pay off!
In Chicago, on the El just south of the loop, there is an S curve that the El uses to jog 1/2 block west. It must take a minute to go about 300 feet, its uncomfortable and noisy, and horrible for the neighborhood, and it has to wear the wheels and tracks like nuts. How often to they have to climb up there to work on those guard rails, etc.? The Green and Orange lines go over this bit of El, has to be well over a hundred trains a day...
Here's what drove me NUTS about this S curve...If it were straightened, it would pass over land currently occupied by...parking lots. PARKING LOTS!!! (No wonder really, with the screeching trains, that land has not been developed!) If they built the El over those parking lots, people could still park underneath it!!!
I think that the ROW people should really focus on eliminating the really S L O W parts of ROWS. As much as we all like to go real fast, what matters to most folks is how long the trip takes, not the maximum speed. You can typically save a lot more time by speeding up the slow parts of the trip, as opposed to the fast parts. (Some say Amtrak has yet to figure this out, too.)
Do any Chicago Subtalkers know if they have managed to speed up much of that slow running that was south of the Loop in say, '93? It was not just my unfavorite S curve...
OK, that's a change from what they told us on the Transit Museum tour a couple of years ago. Thanks for the update.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Still hope they ease the curve a bit, so 75 footers could have access.
Then, if they could clesr the curve near Myrtle, they could do the M like the 5: assign a couple trains of the newer cars there and run them to Booklyn rush hours, and on an OPTO shuttle nights (Weekends also, but I'd rather see midtown service then, after the bridge reopens).
The 75 footers could also run on the L if the Graham curve is not a problem (riding through it every day now, it really does not look that tight. I just wish they would remove that timer, though!)
I wish they would reconstruct Broadway Junction to give the J/Z from Jamaica access to the Canarsie Line. Now that I have an opportunity to ride it, I can appreciate its quality, and the tunnel is underutilized (although the lack of a third express track was a mistake).
You can go from Jamaica to Canarsie. Wash trains and layups do it all the time. And 67' feet isin't lomg enough? The new cars are supposed to be that long aren't they?
In order to go form Jamaica to Canarsie, you have to change direction at Chauncey St. middle track. I think Larry was talking about NOT having to change ends. The R143's will be 60 foot cars (not 67). They will be linked ABBA.
The only 75 footers still single are the R68's, and they'll be all linked (except for 9 cars for the Franklin Shuttle) shortly. So 4 cars will be too few in the east and 8 won't fit into the stations. A 600 foot train wouldn't clear the switches at Metropolitan Ave. plus, it wouldn't fit in the station. Infastructure improvements just to run 75 footers in the eastern division would run into the billions of dollars!
Keep more cars unlinked.
Also, there are the 6 car 46's used for the G, but I didn't suggest those, because the electronic signs don't have destinations for the M beyond Essex. (The original 68 signs, do)
I was also thinking that they might at least have a clearance test when the line reopens. Since this stretch of track is being rebuilt literally from the ground up, it is like a new line and will need clearance tests, so perhaps you will see 75 footers at least for that, and the 110B as well.
I don't think a 75' car can make the reverse curve from Myrtle/B'way to Central Ave. Buildings too close, and I think the tracks are too close together there as well. The curve is also very tight. Remember, it's the radius of the turn, not how far you turn.
-Hank
.
I find James' politeness quite refreshing! It's a lot better than some of the things I've seen posted on the Internet.
Compared to some of the posts here it's nice to see formal. He can post as formally as he wants. The problem I think is that it's never clear to me if he thinks he's going to get the "official" answer-- the formality of his request indicates to me that he expects official and formal in the reply...
At least no one here changes the headers and puts 'To:so and so' in the subject line like they're doing over on Bus Talk.....
-Mr Nitpick
-Hank
I believe that some years ago, several New York subway cars were fitted with a flywheel device that stored energy when the car was braking. The energy stored in the flywheel could be converted back into electricity, via a generator, and used by the car for acceleration, therefore saving power. Can anyone tell me any more about this, or suggest where I might find further information?
Thanks
Mike Smith
mep98mjs@sheffield.ac.uk
I believe the R-11s were originally equipped with flywheels for this purpose. Whether or not they were kept during the R-34 rebuilding is another issue.
My memory of this is that there was a test mod done on a pair of R-32 cars. Steve may have the answer in his archives.
The cars involved were 3700 and 3701. They were towed at the rear end of freight trains all the way across the country, surrounded by a pair of Norfolk & Western coupler conversion gondolas. As they were being towed over Cajon Pass between Barstow and San Bernardino, California, the drawbar between the cars somehow broke, and the cars were set out until repairs could be made at the AT&SF Railway shops in San Bernardino.
Imagine MY surprise, living out here in California, when driving down the freeway and noting over in the yard what looked to be a pair of "strange baggage cars" until I noticed the TA emblem on the sides!!
Photos of the csrs in San Bernardino are posted on the NY Subway Resources site.
The flywheel system was installed by Garrett Airesearch in Torrance, California. Not sure of the specifics of the system, nor how long it lasted, but in August, 1979, I was in NYC and rode on 3700 and it seemed to be back to a "normal" R32 by then.
Oh, the flywheel cars. They were two R32 cars, I believe 3200 and 3201 equipped with flywheels from The Garrett Corporation AiResearch Manufacturing Company of California. They were called the Energy Storage Unit (ESU) and operated with a maximum speed of 14,000 rpm. The 6 month testing was completed on August 20, 1976. There was a energy savings between 24 and 38 percent over ten different B Division Lines. The ESU was 100 inches long, 30 inches in diameter and weighted 5,000 lbs.
Garrett provided the propulsion system on MARTA cars with chopper controls and are still in service.
I own the advertising cards from the actual flywheel cars.
Is this more promising at this point than regenerative braking?
Seems like with today's electronics one could get effective regenerative braking...
Regenerative braking is not that effective if the line is not receptive for the power. A train must be accelerating on an adjacent track to take advantage of regen. The flywheel is effective all the time.
But there are many trains running in a system like NY for a large part of the day. Yes, the electrical supply system would have to be redesigned, and I realize that is no joke... But flywheels in every car on the system would be expensive, too!
There are disadvantages to the system, too. 1 - they are HEAVY, so there is an energy cost. 2 - They are potentially scary in an accident, as they would be dangerous if they got loose!! 3 - Do they effect the dynamics of the car? Thats a hell of a lot of angular momentum, hard to turn that wheel (for the same reason you can stay up on a bicycle). I presume they are therefore mounted on a vertical axis, but would they still have an affect on train dynamics? Not a trivial question!
Not that is not an idea which should be pursued. But I think Regenerative braking should be revisited too! The TA could put the power back into the grid, for instance. I believe that is possible these days!
24 to 38 percent power savings sounds pretty substantial. If the experiment was a success, why were flywheels never installed on a large-scale basis?
The two R-32 cars that were equipped with Flywheels were 3700-3701 (not 3200 and 3201.....that would be impossible for an R-32). If I remember correctly, they first debuted on the N line, and were the two middle cars of the train.
I was waiting for a downtown N/R train at 49th street when I saw a "TGC2" Inspection car coming uptown on the local track. It was pretty cool. The downtown N was a slant, head car 4342.
I just got the following email from NYCT.COM:
Dear MetroCard Vote&Win Voter:
We are pleased to announce that the winning MetroCard is the Statue of Liberty card (#5) and the winning MetroCard holder is the Cloisters holder (letter E). The New York skyline at night MetroCard (#2) and the Brooklyn Bridge MetroCard (#26) proved to be very popular as well.
The lucky winner of the set of MetroCards and holders, from Queens, NY, has been notified.
Thank you again for your participation and for telling us which cards and holders are your favorites.
Well, I'm not from Queens (any more) nor have I been notified, so I guess I didn't win :-{
It's high time they put the appearence of the MetroCard to good use. I say The back should have a kind of calendar/scorecard allowing riders to keep track of their use so they can determine how much they might be saving by buying the monthly pass.
Another idea is to put a mini-map of midtown on the back, or you could choose which part of town you want a map of.
They also might have sign language diagrams for the deaf on the back.
Or the Periodic table of elements.
Or, god forbid, a timetable for your particular line.
Here's a thought-subway maps on the back of FunPasses for tourists.
Though these days, the map you used in October may be useless in May.
I also didn't win :-( And none of the cards mentioned were on my list.
I voted for #55 New & old subway cars.
P.S. Just got some recent dip cards from a friend in Atlanta, they obviously haven't been talking to the suits in NYC, as NONE were adv., i.e. places to go: Carter Ctr [photo of former Pres & wife] (Jan); Martin L. King (Feb); Margaret Mitchell (Mar); Atlanta's mayor (I guess)(Apr)
Mr t__:^)
Gents, Ladies, maybe a normal item for you New Yorkers! but can anyone
post a list of what the label colours displayed under Car number plates related to..?
I know that the IRT division uses red,green,yellow,blue, black and of course puprle (#7 line!) to identify which yard each car is allocated to.
Does the IND and BMT divisions also have colours..??
As usual thanks for any reply to something which maybe "the norm"
to those Stateside but looking through some photos i'm curious!.
.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK.
Here are the colors associtated with IRT yards:
Red: 240th St
Orange: Jerome Ave.
Black: 239 St
Green: Unionport/E.180
Yellow: Westchester
Blue: Livonia
Purple: Corona
I don't remember Lenox Yard. I don't think they use a color scheme for the IND/BMT Yards.
does anybody know what the equipment under the seats of R32/R40 trains are? cause when i was just opening up the seats, there was stuff under there, and a lot of garbage.
laterz
blackdevl
The car heaters are under the seats and I think the PA speakers might have once been under them on the sides just like on the R-33/36 Redbirds. Dumb place to put speakers if you ask me.
Under the seats on R-32 thru R-42 you will find the door operators and the floor heaters. Needless to say, you should not be under the seats for any reason. The heaters are powered by 600 volts fused at 20 amps (more than enough to be lethal). Besides, the door equipment is relatively sensative to tampering. If you are caught, you will be arrested.
I came across some documentation from the 1970s that hopefully will put an end to some of the debate about braking on NYCT cars.
Suplimental Air
The issue of suplimental air has frequently been raised. Here are the documented facts about the subject. Only R-10 to R-28 and R-30A ever had suplimental air. Those cars had a maximum decelleration rate of 3.0 MPHPS in full service (dynamic or Air). The suplimental air increased that to 4.0 MPHPS. R-29 and up (Except R-30As) never had suplimental air. Therefore the statement that was made many moons ago that Suplimental Air was removed during overhaul simply was not true.
Composition Shoes
Except for R-44 and R46, all cars were originally delivered with cast iron brake shoes (except 4518-4549). The brake cylinder used for cast iron shoes had an effective area of 36 Square Inches while the Brake Cylinder used for composition shoes was 20 square inches. Cleearly, composition shoes needed
I came across some documentation from the 1970s that hopefully will put an end to some of the debate about braking on NYCT cars.
Suplimental Air
The issue of suplimental air has frequently been raised. Here are the documented facts about the subject. Only R-10 to R-28 and R-30A ever had suplimental air. Those cars had a maximum decelleration rate of 3.0 MPHPS in full service (dynamic or Air). The suplimental air increased that to 4.0 MPHPS. R-29 and up (Except R-30As) never had suplimental air. Therefore the statement that was made many moons ago that Suplimental Air was removed during overhaul simply was not true.
Composition Shoes
Except for R-44 and R46, all cars were originally delivered with cast iron brake shoes (except 4518-4549). The brake cylinder used for cast iron shoes had an effective area of 36 Square Inches while the Brake Cylinder used for composition shoes was 20 square inches. Cleearly, composition shoes needed less pressure to achieve the same braking effort.
Other misc. facts
Well since the R26/28 cars DID have the suplimental inshot valve with them when the left for Hornell,the statment "simply not true" is simply, not true.
When those cars first came back in the summer of'86, I remember the Motormen screaming about the long brakes.
Since those guys then were used to brakes that could stop in as much as 4.0 MPHPS, the new stuff tended to scare them. RTO told them it was in their head. After CED looked and found nothing was wrong. Of course not. They had been re-designed to stop 1MPHPS less.
I remember several times, as to qualifiying my stats, that I was refering to original SMEE cars only, in comparison. Since I own an R16, and there are no R32's or the like around, I needed something verifyable to look at.
I'm no engineer, but wouldn't it work, that if you decrease the effective area of pressure, PSI would need to be raised?
On freight cars, heavy cars had huge brake cylinders, while light ones, had small cylinders. This is because freight car brakes have no regulators on them. It's all done with equalization. So all freight cars must have the same brake cylinder pressures.
IND/BMT cars have bigger brake cylinders than IRT ones. And the B cars are obviously heavier. So what gives?
If the size of the brake cylinder is reduced, then why also reduce pressure? It's either one or the other.
I'm not following this.
Large cylinder-max press/full load 106PSI (I'm sure)
Small cylinder-max press/full load 56 PSI (not sure)
Let's use the R26 as the baseline. It left WABCO SMEE. It came back NYAB. They were heavier, with the A/C. But I don't know if the other gear changes made much of a difference. The old compressors had to weigh more. But the control group, and the converter/motor generator swap?
They upped the HP. Which was good. Unfourtunately, too many motormen saw the power to climb hills as an opportunity to speed.
I came across some documentation from the 1970s that hopefully will put an end to some of the debate about braking on NYCT cars.
Suplimental Air
The issue of suplimental air has frequently been raised. Here are the documented facts about the subject. Only R-10 to R-28 and R-30A ever had suplimental air. Those cars had a maximum decelleration rate of 3.0 MPHPS in full service (dynamic or Air). The suplimental air increased that to 4.0 MPHPS. R-29 and up (Except R-30As) never had suplimental air. Therefore the statement that was made many moons ago that Suplimental Air was removed during overhaul simply was not true.
Composition Shoes
Except for R-44 and R46, all cars were originally delivered with cast iron brake shoes (except 4518-4549). The brake cylinder used for cast iron shoes had an effective area of 36 Square Inches while the Brake Cylinder used for composition shoes was 20 square inches. Cleearly, composition shoes needed less pressure to achieve the same braking effort.
Source for this info is the "Rapid Transit Passenger Car Data" 4th edition, 1976
Other misc. facts
1) Balancing speed for the R-44 and R-46 was 80 MPH
2) Originally, all cars were designed to accellerate at 2.5 MPHPS
3) Maximum operating speed for all car classes was 45 MPH except R-44/64 which were designed to do 70 MPH on 'new lines'.
4) Floors on R-1 through R-14 was a material called magnesite, poured over an sub floor or Aluminum truss plates.
Lots more info available - Just ask
no copies are available at this time
When converting mainline coaches from Cast Iron to Composition brake shoes, it is common practice to sleeve the brake cylinder and install a smaller piston to reduce the force of the cylinder. Furthermore, composition shoes are less prone to fading as deceleration progresses. I have assisted with several COT&S (Clean Oil Test & Stencil) brake overhauls involving systems which have had this modification.
Please forgive the incomplete postings under Brakes then/Brakes Now. Apparently I need a new mouse.
Just don't get an Anon_e_mouse:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That deserves a rim shot.
I was riding a happytown toodle wagon smileyface-car (M4) tonight
and thought up this scenario:
Assuming the Reading Terminal were still the end of the Reading
lines, and there were no CC tunnel, then if you wanted to move
a car from Fern Rock to Lindenwold, how would you do it? I know
that Lindenwold connects to Delair Jct, and maybe some Conrail
seashore freight, and that Fern Rock ties into the Reading, but is
there an easy common point between those lines? (And I'm of course
assuming the Broad-Ridge Spur is no more.)
*sigh* Never thought up that kind of silliness on an M3. ;)
The Broad St. Line and Lindenwold Lines connect north of 8th and Market on the Broad Ridge Spur line, the Broad-Ridge Spur and Camden Bridge lines used to be linked when both were run by PRT and PTC.
However, if you wanted to do an all railway move, you would leave Lindenwold, follow the NJT line over the Delair bridge, follow Conrail's track 0 along through N. Philly to north of ZOO tower where you would use the new connection to the City Line, follow the City Line to the River line at Belmont Interlocking, follow the River line to the Low Grade Branch at River interlocking, follow the Low Grade to Newtown Jct., pass through Newtown Jct. and come out to Fern Rock.
No back up moves required (unless they reconfigured Newtown Jct. into something newly inconvenient).
Andy
Aha, interesting. But where was the connection between Reading and
Pennsy tracks before the new City Line connection?
You'd have to go thru Zoo interlocking and then back thru to the Reading line along the west side of the Schuylkill to its junction with the Schuylkill East Side branch. The Ingleside connection (from the Sch. East Side to Conrail track '0' alongside Amtrak) was installed to facilitate such moves.
There is an interesting story with why the Ingleside connection was built. Apparently, freights had to sit on Conrail's High Line to wait for the Amtrak dispatchers at Zoo to allow them to go thru Zoo (a very busy place) to access Track 0. Many of these freights could go up the old CSX from South Phila but there was no connection between the Schuylkill East Side line (CSX) and Track 0, so they had to go up the High Line and then get caught up at Zoo. Amtrak was also interested in getting freight track removed from Zoo.
The story goes that Conrail's president looked out his window at CR HQ (Commerce Square at 20th & Market) and could see freights sitting still on the High Line for hours. He asked why and was told. He then allegedly told someone to solve it and the Ingleside Connection was born.
With CSX taking over the High Line and connecting from its Baltimore Line at 49th St in Southwest Phila, some are now saying that the East Side line's days are numbered. We shall see.
Where can I find information on the Philly tunnel connection? I would like to know just when it was built, also just where the lines on either side formerly terminated. Is this described somewhere on this site? On the SEPTA site?
Dan,
There's a book by Gerry Williams called "Trains, Trolleys & Transit"
published by Railpace that should detail things for you. In the
meantime:
There were 2 rival railroads, the Pennsylvania and the Reading.
The Pennsy's final CC stop was Suburban Station. A few blocks down
Market Street, Reading Terminal was the end of the line for the
Reading's trains. The shed still stands, but traffic to those old
lines is now routed through the commuter tunnel and meets the main
Reading line farther north.
In the 80's, they broke through from Suburban station east, created
the Market East terminal, and then pushed north up to the old Reading
lines, bypassing Reading Terminal which is now the convention center.
Hope that helps a little!
-Lee
You got it. You can still visit the old Reading Terminal, which is now part of the Pennsylvania Convention Center. It's been restored and is a great place.
To all concerned:
I have access to a supply of Willy B. Recon. brochures. As a courtesy to my fellow SubTalkers, I will gladly send out copies (2) FREE OF CHARGE while supplies last. Send requests to me via SHADO183@juno.com
Doug aka BMTman
Are these the DOT brochures with color photos, or just the NYCT brochures giving the reroute information?
These are the expensively produced, color booklets with the fold-out re-routing map. (If they're gonna spend the kind of money on the bridge that they used on the brochures, then we are going to have a VERY good East River crossing when all the work is done!) ;)
Doug aka BMTman
I rode the BMT today from Fulton St to Atlantic Av via the Willy B using four trains and a bus. Here is some of the things I noticed at the stations.
All stations seem to have proper signage concerning the special services running during the shutdown.
Chambers St: The weekend "S" arrives and departs from the southbound exp tk J4,rather than relaying on the tail track south of the station.
Essex St: All service is on the center track J 3/4. A walkway has been constructed accross the ntbd J1 track for access to the former employee only entrance which is used for exit only to the B 39 bus. The special metrocard (white) is issued here at a booth. Passengers entering on the normal southbound platform must cross under via the IND to reach the center platform.
Marcy Av: The temporary center platform extends for 8 car lengths but only the east half is used for 4 car M trains. There is a walkway accross the stbd lcl tk J2 at the west end of the platform. All passengers use the southbound platform to enter and leave. Access to the northbound platform is closed off. The stairway at the west end of the southbound platform is open from 6a to 10p but from 6a-10a is used only for exiting passengers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One thing that was pointout in our Subtalk Railfan trip was the service notice (red) in Hebrew at Marcy Ave... >G<
(Service notice in Hebrew in Williamsburg). Shouldn't it have been in Yiddish?
Hebrew and Yiddish both use the Hebrew alphabet.
Okay IT was the HEBREW Alphabet, I don't remember enough to read it to determine if it was Yiddish or Hebrew and it was on the free side of the fare zone so I did not get close to the sign to make out the vowels.
There were no vowels on the sign! I tried to make out a few words, but it's been too long since I was 13 :-) I do remember reading in NYCT publicity that they would be making brochures available in many lanuguates, including Yiddish, so my guess is that's what we saw.
According to my girlfreind, it's Hebrew. She can read Yiddish, but not Hebrew.
-Hank
Both are read from right to left, are they not?
Yes, and both are generally written without the "vowels" one might be familiar with from prayer books - Yiddish has adapted some of the letters to signify the vowels, while Hebrew simply does without them. Yiddish would be a logical language to use for notices at Marcy Ave., given the large number of Satmar Hasidim living in Williamsburgh who use that station on a regular basis.
Rt M Nassau St-West End Lcl runs ntbd only am rush Bay Pkwy to Chambers. Equiptment then deadheads to Essex tj J3/4,reverse via J4 to Canal,then reverse via J3 to layup btwn Canal and Essex.
Service runs in both directions during the pm rush.
Equiptment:
J/Z 6 car R-42
M-Nassau St-West End 8 car R-42
M-Myrtle Av Lcl 4 car R-40 slants
S-Nassau St Shuttle 4 car R-40 M (Yes,solid trains of R-40M's)
L-8 car R-42
Of course this is only the trains that I saw. If anyone wants the numbers please e-mail me.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I rode a ten car train of 8 R-40M's and 2-R-42's on the 63 Street Shuttle today, previous to the Willy B closure R-32's were used here.
I also saw a few R-40M's on the N. This combined with the R-40M's on the Nassau St Shuttle seems to put all R-40M's on the Southern Section running in nearly solid trains for the first time in years.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Last time I saw solid R40M consists was back in 1969 and 1970 when they were running the brake test cars on the "EE" and "GG", AND into the mid 70s on the "E" and "F". I think there also were some on the "D" in the 80s too.
Wayne
While we were waiting at Canal Street last Friday for the SubTalk Farewell to the Willy B Fan Trip, about 5 minutes before 6:00 pm an 8 car train of solid R-40M's passed by. I forget whether it was on the J or M.
The last couple of days, I have notice anywhere between 70 to 100 R32 cars operating on the A train. Can anyone shed some light on this? Is this temporary? Why is this occurring? Will the A lose some or all of the R38's and/or R44's because of this.
Thats good!!!!!!!!! The A line is on my list of my trips this summer. I could get a railfan window!! Cant wait!! A railfan window from 207 to Far Rock........Man oh man!!!!!!!!!!
That sounds like a trip for me too plus the N train
It probably has to do with weekend express service in Brooklyn, but I could be wrong. I would certainly hope the R-38s stay on the A. The R-44s? You can have them.
This wouldn't be the first time the A line has seen R-32s. I rode them on the A once in 1969 or thereabouts. We were at 14th St. when such a train pulled in. I was a bit surprised to see anything except R-10s, but since I liked the R-32s, that was OK. It was too bad we had to get off at 42nd St. I would have loved to have continued on that train on the CPW express dash, especially because the R-32s made it look so easy.
There have been a few consists of R32 on the A for the last few months. I would guess that this has to do with the three-way equipment swap between Jamaica, Pitkin and CI as well as the beefed-up service needed now that they are running express full-time and also need more locals to cover.
Wayne
Mr. R,
I am heading over to Roosevelt Island tomorrow night to have dinner with my Mom. What do you look like? Just in case you have nothing better to do...
Has r68 cars been totally removed from the N train, or these R40ms addition the the current rolling stock?
No such luck. The R68's are still there. There are less R32's. See previous posts as to why.
The southbound Canarsie Line track P1 is out of service from Broadway Jct to Atlantic. Both the tracks and the concrete roadbed are being removed. Stbd L trains use the following route; Broadway Jct tk Q1 to J1A to K1 at Atlantic back to P1.Its an opportunity to ride a little bit of Fulton St El trackage.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Will it be back to normal service?
I believe that it will when the entire Atantic Av reconstruction is done.
Larry,RedbirdR33
RedbirdR33:
That's a negative on the service going "back to normal". From what a motorman on the "L" line told me a couple of weeks back when the demolition started by Atlantic -- part of the reconstruction program will include the "realigning" of the Canarsie routes so that there is no longer that wide turn made by the northbound trains by Sutter as they go toward Atlantic (to accommodate the tracks of the defunct Fulton line).
Basically the work will include having southbound trains running on K1 all the way into Sutter (re-aligning the existing "lay-up" tracks). The Northbound trains will of course end up going straight out of Sutter over the K2 tracks. At Atlantic, there will have to be some serious track re-aligning to accommodate this arrangement, if I am correct. But that's the idea in a nut shell -- making the Canarsie line a straight run pretty much from start to finish. I believe it is all related to the dreaded CBTC program that the NYCT wants to implement on the "L" sometime after 2000.
Doug aka BMTman
Why is CBTC dreaded?
Well, for starters it is one step closer to one-man 10-car train operation.
The public won't be thrilled to hear that, and nor will the motorman's union.
I heard the motormen are going to fight CBTC to the end. The public should side with them on this fight. I wouldn't totally trust automated train operation (keep Y2K in mind). Give me a human at the controls any day.
The only good benefit would be running more trains more often from having them spaced apart as little as 25 ft.? The L currently runs trains at a reasonably frequent rate.
Doug aka BMTman
Can't say I agree. Riders/taxpayers will benefit from anything that allows greater productivity, more speed, and more capacity. It may not work but we have to try.
You know the dropped back loader on NYC garbage trucks, with the big piece of metal that comes down and swipes the garbage up? It was invented back in the 1930s. Perhaps you could lobby to go back to dump trucks for refuse collection, with two men on top and three on the side to load.
TWU members get the benefits of productivity gains elsewhere in the economy. They have to have some themselves.
Let's not forget the safety of such a system. How many fatal accidents have occured on BART, PATCO, WMATA and MARTA? All systems are mostly automated, with one-man crews. How many passenger injuries that can be directly attributed to this type of operation? Only labor us opposed to this type of operation, solely in their own self-interest, not that I blame them, however. They have every right to fight for their jobs.
-Hank
Two fatal accidents on WMATA, one due to derailment and one due to rear-end collision in its 23-year history; not a bad track record.
Only the derailment between Smithsonian and Federal Triangle resulted in the death of passengers; the rear-end collision north of Shady Grove, however, killed the train operator. Breda 3252 was telescoped a distance of 21 feet in that one.
Wayne
Wayne,
Here's an interesting tidbit of info concerning that WMATA accident that claimed passenger lives (not sure of total):
At just about the same moment as the accident on WMATA occurred, the USair jet hit the 14th street bridge with the loss of so many lives.
A good friend of mine who became a Washington D.C. fireman related to me the story, he told me that the Dept was severely hard pressed to respond to both, and that at first the almost simultaneous calls were thought to be pranks! Alas they were not.
Mike H.
I believe it was an Air Florida Jet, not US Air in that one.
BTW - I believe that it was Air Frorida (which was ultimately swallowed up bu USAirways.
One other interesting tidbit....It was that incident and his 'poor taste joke' about it, that got Howard Stern run out of DC.
Yes, it was an Air Florida Boeing 737-200 that went into the Potomac around the same time the WMATA subway accident occured.
Air Florida was NOT bought up by US Air. They just folded up and disappeared, their fleet was liquidated (i.e. sold off to other carriers).
[BTW - I believe that it was Air Florida (which was ultimately swallowed up by USAirways.
One other interesting tidbit....It was that incident and his 'poor taste joke' about it, that got Howard Stern run out of DC.]
Sounds odd. That crash happened in 1981 or 82, and I didn't think Howard was a well-known personality at that time.
Now his latest Littleton crack, *that* was going a bit over the line.
[Howard's recent comment - Now his latest Littleton crack, *that* was going a bit over the line.]
I've heard about the same comment from a number of people who don't normaly listen to him (myself incl.). Maybe there's how he'll go away somehow ?
Hi from Binghamton Univ.
Mr t__:^)
You apparently haven't heard a little piece of work called "Mancow Muller." His show (originating from Chicago but syndicated) makes Howard Stern look like a BBC announcer in a tuxedo reading poetry by comparison!
But Howards sick comment got him lots of publicity, ultimately got him into the New York market, and into the national spotlight with his shows on E and CBS, no matter if you like him or not.
Yes, his insensitive remark was definitely not appreciated in Denver. There has been a movement here to get him off the air. I don't listen to him, anyway, and didn't actually hear him make that comment.
From what I read Automatic Train Operation seems very safe. However, it ain't foolproof. And, coupled with _bad management_, I believe it killed that operator at Shady Grove. It was an icy/snowy night, which affects braking distances BUT ALSO SCREWED UP THE SPEED SENSORS on that train. The operator wanted to put the train into manual (or other operators on the system made that request that night, I don't remember exactly.) The request(s) were denied. WMATA does NOT want operators driving their trains, at least not at the time. Basically, they felt they got too many flat wheels when operators operated! Anyways, the unlucky fellow slammed through Shady Grove station at lots of speed and then into a train parked beyond, all in Automatic Mode.
On Patco, they MAKE their operators manually drive a segment of every trip. They realize that the human judgement at the trains controls is very important. At the time, WMATA had a control freak at their helm who did not like this idea. It cost them an operator, and some family a father... (If I remember, he did have kids).
I think the PATCO system results in an incredibly safe system. I'd go further and say maybe even safer than NY - no Union Square disaster on such a system. I do not know as much about BART...But keeping the human at the controls, even just "supervising," is crucial.
As for OPTO, I cannot imagine NYCTA trying opto on a rush hour...any train! It won't go anywhere if they do. But in the middle of the night, well, I see no reason the TA should not go for it. Like Larry said, TA workers benefit from productivity gains...
I wouldn't totally trust automated train operation (keep Y2K in mind). Give me a human at the controls any day.
Why? It seems to work reasonably well in Washington DC, Atlanta, San Francisco and Singapore. (There is a trainman at the front though to operate the doors).
--Mark
In Atlanta, Washington, and San Franciso, (I don't know anything about Singapore) virtually all of the stations are straight and don't have obstructed views from the front to the back. Furthermore, I don't recall seeing trains longer than about eight cars. In many of the New York stations (particularly the ex-IRT and ex-BMT), the station itself curves and you can not see all the way to the end from the front. In fact, even the Utica Avenue Station on the Fulton Street subway poses visibility issues with the dip for the unbuilt IND Phase II line.
"I heard the motormen are going to fight CBTC to the end. The public should side with them on this fight. I wouldn't totally trust automated train operation (keep Y2K in mind). Give me a human at the controls any day."
CBTC will not replace the train operator. It will, however, make it less likely that he can screw up. It's been said that every catastrophe in mass transit, since the Titanic, has been caused,at least in part, by human error.
Does modifying air brakes outside of the design parameters of the signal system count?
Erik, I generally appreciate what you have to say, but I have to agree with steve - you are badgering him on this issue!
I think automatic train controls are the way to go. It's tough to maintain concentration and avoid human error over millions of miles. That's why I think I'm safer on the train than in my own car -- I know my attention can wander.
But in fairness, Steve, once you have automatic train control systemwide, the question will be raised "why can't the train operator control the doors?" After all, bus drivers do it. And more technology (ie. cameras) could be used to scan the platforms.
I expect we will have full time OPTO. When? A couple of years after every other transit agency in North America has it. It's been a long time since NYC has been a hotbed of innovation.
The mistake everyone seems to be making (or perhaps I mis-read the documentation) but CBTC is not meant to be automatic train control. It is an advanced signal system that allows trains to run faster and closer together but does not have the capability of operating the train. Does anyone know differently?
[The mistake everyone seems to be making (or perhaps I mis-read the documentation) but CBTC is not meant to be automatic train control. It is an advanced signal system that allows trains to run faster and closer together but does not have the capability of operating the train. Does anyone know differently?]
The documentation I read indicated that CBTC was capable of Automatic Train Operation (ATO), but that this capability would not be used.
The other day, I happened to see R-42s 4612-3 at Church Avenue on the F. These cars are serving as test beds for CBTC equipment. The people inside were putting up posters from Alstom detailing that company's equipment (I guess for visiting dignitaries). ATO was mentioned.
Maybe I'm missing something here: CBTC allows more trains to run closer together. Fine. But they still have to make a station stop. How can that be done any faster? I think of a line like the E & F. One train comes in as soon as the leader leaves. How can you get any more trains in there?
(How can you get more trains). Reuter said that CBTA would lift the maximum from 25 to 35. I don't know how this would be accomplished. Certainly, dwell time is an issue, and as A Pardi says if you don't have people on the busy platform it will eat up the gains. But it could work great on long express runs and tunnels, allowing multiple trains to merge in and use the same tunnel before diverging again. That's may main interest, because of the Manhattan Bridge nightmate.
you mention 25 to 35 is that miles per hour or increasing train thoroughput(trains per hour) . CBTC would allow or should I say could allow more trains to operate in a signal block using communcation versus current technology. More trains could operate not neccessarily in relation to train speed. IN the current method as i was told that one train in a signal block has at LEAST two red signals behind it the closest to the train with tripping device at danger and the other red signal with trip arm below the ball of the running rail. The idea is to allow a maximum safe distance for an emergency application of brakes without that train colliding with the train in the block ahead.
Could it be utilized this way in the Montague St. tunnel?
how will CBTC make trains operate faster and safer when more than one train will be in the same signal block? currently only one train may occupy a signal block with at least two red signals behind a train on the circuit. putting more trains in service during rush hour isn't possible due to the safe spacing of trains with the current signal system. If passengers would get out of the habit of holding doors and stepping out of doorways letting passengers onto and off of trains would speed up train dwell time dramatically. On BART passengers would line up at door positions let passengers exiting trains and step aboad the train. IN NYC it seems customary to barge into a subway car while customers exit slowing things down. WHAT about baby carriages on trains during RUSH HOUR WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT? PLEASE.... during rush hour the moment a train develops door problems a train must be taken out of service slowing up service more. It looks cute holding doors for someone rushing to a catch a train after awhile the door mechanism will eventually malfunction and cause a train to be removed from service.
CBTC is a "moving block" signal system, where the block moves along with the train. CBTC will allow for train separation of as little as 25 feet, though trains would not operate at speed that closely together. The current "fixed block" system assumes the worst case, that the leading train is at the back of a signal block and the trailing train is at the front of the previous block.
You have a point, though. Excessive dwell times can negate any signal system enhancements. People must get it into their heads that the train doesn't move while someone's in the doors.
David
[how will CBTC make trains operate faster and safer when more than one train will be in the same signal block?]
thanks for the info, i suppose someday we'll have cab signalling in the subway system ? CBTC is still a mystery...
I had posted this message a while back but can't remember if anybody responded to it. Anyway here goes. With CBTC are there any safety designs built into it to prevent train collisions such as there is with running a red signal know with the block system?
(No one answered). Perhaps no one here knows the answer. I don't.
Of course there are, otherwise it would not be considered a moving block system.
I'm not sure, but if it works like cab signals, then the closer the train is to the one in front of it, the lower the speed limit drops, until finnaly it reaches zero. Should the train exceed the speed limit, a penalty application of the brakes would occur.
Yes, the train crashes with another train!!!
Yes. If there was nothing at all to prevent a collision, then you wouldn't even have a signalling system. The main purpose of CBTC, like any signalling system, is to ensure safe operation and prevent collisions.
With traditional signalling, there are the trip arms at trackside, which mechanically trigger the brakes when trains get too close. With CBTC, the brakes are also applied when trains get too close, but it is done electronically, by a computer on the train.
CBTC differs from traditional signalling in that the "red signals" are virtual. In essence, the red signals are there, but they are invisible - they move along with the trains, their position also changing in relation to speed. However, if a train passes one of these virtual red lights, yes, the brakes will be applied by the computer.
So with CBTC, there is nothing mechanical to stop the train, like there is with traditional signalling. This probably worries some people, but as with any critical safety system, CBTC is designed using fail-safe techniques, where if any part of the CBTC system fails, the train will stop, instead of continuing without protection.
Thanks very much Rich for making the CBTC a lot clearer on its operation. But as Steve had pointed out a while back it will probably be used in conjucntion with the present signalling system. When you consider the work trains etc.
Well, I'm by no means the expert, but wouldn't keeping the wayside signals defeat the maintenance advantage of CBTC? Part of the reason for moving to CBTC is to improve headways, as discussed here, but I've also heard that another advantage is saving money on maintenance of wayside equipment.
Here in Philly, they are talking about converting the MFL to cab signalling after all the M-4s are delivered. This in NOT CBTC, it is fixed-block. The reason given for doing this is to save money by eliminating the cost of maintaining wayside signals. I haven't heard any other reason for the conversion, and from what I know about cab signaling, there aren't too many other reasons to do it.
I would like to hear feedback on this. Does anyone know of any other advantages of cab signalling over standard wayside signalling?
And wouldn't it make sense for NYC to take advantage of this aspect of CBTC and get rid of wayside signals altogether? (If and when they implement CBTC on any given line.) They would have to install the technology on work trains, yes - but that's no big deal if you're going to install it on hundreds of revenue cars... right?
Cab signalling allows trains to run in both directions on the same track This provides greater flexibility in that you can utilize the opposite track to run around a stalled train. The current system of having track signalled for traffic in one direction only means that to run against the current of traffic you must establish a manual block by verbal or other means and allow only one train at a time within the block.You can signal a line in both directions with wayside signals but this is expensive and is usually done only in river tunnels,yard approaches or terminals.Also cab signals instantly reflect any change in the block such as the unauthorized throwing of a switch or a break in the running rail.
Larry,RedbirdR33
All the things you mention can and are done in automatic block territory. The LIRR has Rule 251 for track signalled one way and Rule 261 for both ways.
A good example is the main line. From Jay interlocking at Jamaica, to Harold Interlocking in Long Island City, the four track main is all 261. There are Cab signals (rule 409) in conjunction with wayside signals. Unless you are going against the normal flow of traffic on one of the outside tracks. Then it's rule 410. Cab signals only. No wayside signals. Middle tracks are very flexible.
With CBTC, as with other forms of automatic speed control, failure
to obey the speed being indicated by the signal system will cause
a penalty brake application. This means vital (fail-safe) signal-
grade equipment aboard each subway car (at least those that have
operating cabs) with some degree of tamper protection. There
will also be, in the NYCTS CBTC system, much longer fixed block
sections with conventional track circuit protection and trips as
a fall-back and to provide broken rail detection and switch locking.
I would guess, but I am only guessing, that a rogue train with
its CBTC cut-out would eventually get tripped at one of these points.
Correct. But already we have something similar with station time: a second train can come very close behind it's leader already making a station stop and as the first train begins to leave the station, the second one can ease on in. Eventhough you may be able to operate trains closer together between stations, you'll always have that complete stop at the station where it won't matter how close the other trains behind you are spaced together. They still have to wait for you to leave!
Again, we're talking about apples and squash . When I said that CBTC will permit the trains to run faster, I meant the MAS (maximum allowable speed) would be increased and the spacing between trains would be decreased. I was not discussing the turnips that slow things down.
Erik, It absolutely does include modifying cars to operate outside of the envelope of the signal system but so does falling asleep at the controls. It seems to me that there is enough culpability on both sides. Lobbing grenades is not the answer. Making things work is.
Well, there I will agree.
Enough of this though. Back to more relaxing things.
Steve, or anyone else: I have seen a picture of the IND reccieving R1's at 207th Street on the car float that used to be there. A steam engine was doing the work, and not the IND flat motors. As far as I have ever seen, that's the only photo of a steam engine that I know of.
I'd like to find out when did the switch to diesel occur?
What did the original diesels look like? And the Steam, any one have the specs to go with the photos?
I know there were a pair of ex U.S. Army Whitcomb diesels from 1943 that ran on SBK. #9 is at TMNY.
I have a recollection of a film clip of R-1s being unloaded using a steam loco in either of 2 videos,
"Empire Beneath The Streets" or "River of Steel" I'll try to find the clip for you. You can even come over to the shop one night to see it (or borrow it) if you promise not to try to organize a job action .
#5 was built in 1910 but the first IND loco was a "motor flat car" (#41). The R-3 was built as a drill motor for the IND in 1931. According to the documentation I have, it had four 190 HP traction motors on the #1 truck while the #2 truck was a trailer. It is still sitting in Coney Island Yard on one of the museum tracks.
Doug: Thanks for the info. I had assumed that they would P1 stbd and K1 ntbd. That's an awful lot of work just to get rid of some tracks that don't seem to be bothering anyone.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The discussion of East New York raises the question--who pays for structural work on the New York City subway system? Does the City, since I assume the people of the City still own the system? Does the City have any say over what's done? What City department would oversee what is done?
Taking it a bit further, did anyone responsible to the people of the City or to their elected representatives authorize the nonsense of 63rd Street and the worse nonsense of the Queens Boulevard connection from 63rd Street?
Wonderingly,
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
The TA, like any agency of the government with the word
"Authority" in it's name is a quasi independent body.
Obstensibly, this was to prevnt it from becoming a political football. Look at what's going on at the Bored of (mis)education.
Triboro Bridge, Port, School Construction, all of them have had their finnacial trouble. And none of them are TRULLY acountable to the people they serve.
The TA does what it pleases. Larry Reuter answers to Virgil Conway. Virgil Conway answers to the Governor of NY state. With that level of bueracracy, it's totally imposible for these people to be held accountable. You can have all the public hearings and protests you want. It won't change a thng. Witness EVERY SINGLE fare hike. OPTO. Station closings. It takes a HUGE, I mean HUGE public out cry before those megolomaniacs take notice from their ivory tower.
There is a part of the TA's budget that comes out of the mayor's, so in effect Rudy does have some, small influence. He appoints several members to the boards of these Authorities, and therefore controls their votes. But still, if Larry Reuter wants to, he could still tell Rudy
"Fu-Q" And there really isn't much Il Rudy could do.
Typically, construction is paid for from the TAs Capital Projects budget. That budget is funded with city, state and largely federal monies. At one time, the TA would get legislation passed to enable it to use capital money for operating expenses. Today, the situation has reversed itself and with a surplus of operating funds, the feds want to reduce their subsidy in lieu of using that operating surplus for capital expenditures.
You should take a look at the City's Ten Year Capital Plan. Back in the early 1980s, the city signed an MOU which specified a minimum city committment to the TA capital plan. Since Rudy took office, it's been contributing the minimum. But that MOU is set to expire, and that the city will go back to the minimum committment it made when the MTA was formed which (like the deal on the TA's share of the TBTA surplus) was not indexed for inflation. It's only $5 million, as the city's Office of Management and Budget gleefully pointed out.
[At one time, the TA would get legislation passed to enable it to use capital money for operating expenses.]
Which is what killed off the Second Avenue line during the Beame administration.
And much more!!!!
The city's fiscal crisis of the 70s killed the 2nd Ave. line. On the other hand, the 63rd St. and Archer Ave. lines were built anyway. Go figure.
whats going on exactly at east new york? is it structural or aesthetics? could any one provide specifics
Serious construction, I'm afraid.
Besides the already mentioned demolition of track P1 and the razing of the eastern-most unused old Fulton El trackage at Atlantic -- there is the current construction of a new overpass at Broadway-East New York station. It was made expressly to assist in the heavy-commuter traffic due to the Willy B. closure. It will take riders from the southbound "L" platform and lead over the track to the center-platform for the northbound train. As most any "L" rider knows, the only passageway at present time is a very clostrophobic underpass from the northbound platform to the rest of the Broadway-Junction structure. It certainly needed to be replaced years ago.
Currently, this new structure is still in it's skeletal stages. I assume that it will be completed sometime next month.
Doug aka BMTman
They have another crossunder towards the south end of the station (which, BTW, has a rather unpleasant aroma) - are they replacing this?
One more thing - where is this overpass going to be located in relation to the existing underpass?
Wayne
A question regarding the proposed platform alignment at Atlantic Avenue - which are going to stay and which are going to go? Are they going to do like was done at Ditmas Avenue - convert the island platform to a side platform. I seriously hope that they don't destroy the period look of that station.
Wayne
Well in be in NY tomorrow for the summer. I will be on the L this weekend. Look like Ill get the camera ready for a piece of history......
Do we have successive track plans for the East New York complex in our historical data?
I'm sure someone has them in their collection but no, there aren't historical track plans on the web site if that's what you were asking.
I think I know the answer to this one already, but is the TA going to reconstruct Marcy Ave station to an express/local island platforms?
I really don't know but the platform over the center track is only a temporary one
Larry,RedbirdR33
The station was recently rebuilt. The island is for cross-overs during the bridge reconstruction.
HI EVERYBODY! I'm a big subway map collector. I'm from Buenos Aires and I've have lotsa maps, but I would like to exchange them in other to increase my collection.
So if you are interested, mail me and let's trade some.
pd: I think it's obvious but I'm not talking about getting money for my maps.
That's all.
Thank you!
GUS
was here
Sounds wonderful! I also collect subway maps from all over the world, and I don't have any from Buenos Aires yet (although I was there a few years ago). I have New York, Berlin, Barcelona and London maps to offer. You could e-mail me at wtheurer@yahoo.com. Best regards!
How does the system handle drainage in stations and tunnels that are below sea level???
Anyone know???
Ejector Rooms! The wastewater winds up in a sump, and a pump pushes it up to the city sewer system. Some of these are elctric pumps, but there are several pnumatic systems as well.
-Hank
Does anyone know exactly how the pneumatic ones work? Does the air spin a pump, or is it like a fish tank filter? :) Can either the pneumatic or electric ones cope with rocks, etc in the water? WShat's the age of the average pump?
The air drives a pump. They can only handle water.
As it was explained to me, it's similar to a fish filter. Basically, the pump 'shoots' the air into the pipe, and that pushes the water up with it. There are screens that catche the stuff that gets carried with the water. It's basically the same concept that rattles the pipes.
-Hank
Where is the pressurized air from in the pneumatic pumps? Are there pressurized air lines throughout the system?
There are compressor houses all over the system, as there are still many pneumatic switches and signal apparatus; PATH is all pneumatic. I don't know if the same system is used to supply air for the ejector system or not, I'd put my money on a seconary system, or a back up system.
-Hank
Thank you for a straight and concise answer.
I assume the pumps are electric and also need to be cleaned, repaired, replaced. Can anyone elaborate???
Also, I imagine that there are dangers and safety issues involving water and electricity.
Well, lots of basements around here have sump pumps, most of a submersible design. And while the owners manuals all say 'must be hooked to a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interuppter) outlet or circut, just like hair dryers, they don't have one built in, unlike hair dryers. Nothing more fun then setting up float switches in a sump tank in the Rockaways......
-Hank
David Pirmann
Jersey City, NJ 07302
May 5, 1999
Alberteen Anderson
NYC Transit Government Relations
130 Livingston St. Third Floor
Brooklyn, NY 11201
Dear Mr. Anderson:
I was given your name in response to an inquiry regarding the rules and regulations governing photography on/of New York City Transit property. I am the "webmaster" of an Internet Web site regarding the history of the NYC Subway and other transit systems, http://www.nycsubway.org/. Believe it or not, this subject is under constant discussion on a number of Internet transit forums, and is important to the transit hobbyist community. However, no one seems to have the definitive regulation. A summary of the regulation over time as I understand it is as follows:
1974. Part 1051.9(b) of the Codes, Rules, and Regulations of the State of New York describes photography as a prohibited use: No person except members of the press who hold working press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department shall take moving pictures of photographs within the limits of the New York City transit system.
As recently as 1997, I received an updated edition of the same regulation from the MTA Office of the Chairman in response to a similar inquiry: Photography, filming, or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors, tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the NYC Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment.
Recently I was told that the permit requirement for photography has returned. If you could please supply a recent copy of the regulation governing photography, this issue could be settled once and for all. Or, perhaps you could simply answer the question: Under what circumstances is a permit required (i.e. commercial photography, hobbyist photography, tourist photography, etc.), how is it obtained, how is it enforced, and what are the penalties for violations?
If a permit is required for hobbyist photography, please consider this letter as my request to obtain one.
The transit hobbyist community eagerly awaits a response in this matter. Your time spent in answering is greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
David Pirmann
Oy, this is not good. Is this a one-time permit or does one have to be obtained on a visit-by-visit basis? Looks like I am going to wait and see what this is all about before I venture out again, so May 15 trip (and all future ones as well) on hold until I get some more information.
Wayne
I hope this permit thing turns out to be false. Because Photos of the subway systerm is the main attaction of this site. All I can say is keep our fingers cross and hope for the Best. Also we should thank Mr. Pirmann for his quick responds to put the Rumors to rest.
I have (and have had) a permit for the last 2 years. It's curently expired, now that I look at it, but it's simple to obtain. Just go to the Livingston St. building, government and public relations section, and ask to see Ms. Barbara Grant.
-Hank
I don't need the permit to take picture but im still going to take more picture of Subway cars and Buses. You should know this is freedom and you do what ever you want. I don't believe the rule and I have the right to take pictures. So what are you going to do? Put me in Jail for taking Pictures?? Well the rule is kind of silly and i been taking picture for month now but no one did not stop me for taking the picture. So have a good night Railfans.
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
It's a safety issue. Basically, the permit requires that you waive your right to hold the TA and its numerous affiliations imdeminable (John Bredin, is this the right word?) in case you get hit by a train while your eyeball is stuck to the viewfinder.
Quote:
...hereby release the City of New York, Metropolitan Transit Authority, New York City Transit Authority, Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority, Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority, and their respective members, officers, agents and employees, from any and all liability whatsoever for any loss, personal injury (including death) [Emphasis Mine] of property damage which may be suffered by the visitor while on, at or about the premisis of the...[authority], irrespective of whether such loss, injury or damage shall have been due to the negligence of the City of New York, Metropolitan Transit Authority, New York City Transit Authority, Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority, Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority, and their respective members, officers, agents or employees, or otherwise.
That's from the release I signed when I got my permit, which also happens to be (as I was told) the same release required of production companies when using the facilities.
-Hank
Have you ever stop by Cops or Tranist employees for taking picture?
While I can't speak for Hank, Mark, Dave or others regarding their experiences with Police or NYCT employees, I have had two run-ins, both in 1998 - once on March 28 1998 the other on September 19 1998.
The first occurred at Franklin Ave IRT the other happened aboard a southbound "R" train after I took a picture of that strange plaque at Union Street. The C/R saw me and told me he would notify the police; so I got off at 9th St and got on the next "N". I was bound for 9th Avenue and I saw the cops looking round (ostensibly for me) at 36 Street so I got on and was gone.
The incident at Franklin IRT involved a pax complaint-someone thought I was taking a picture of them so they called for a cop. They questioned me, one threatened to take my film and camera, I politely objected, the other calmed the first one down and I went on my way.
The watchword is "Be Discreet" but now that a permit seems to be a requirement, I may have to go and get one. I've decided to go ahead with my May 15 trip, the authorities and their silly rules nonwithstanding.
Wayne
Did they ask you for the permit??
At Franklin Avenue, the more aggressive of the two officers DID.
I had to explain my hobby and mission to him, and he was dubious, suggesting to his partner that I join them at the nearest precinct.
The partner drew the line at that and settled for my explanation.
Wayne
Well I had my run in with a station cleaner at Jay Street takeing a picture of an R38 on the C Line. Ofcause I toke the picture of the back of the train. As I walk down the Plat the cleaner was going to make a big issue out of it. There where 4 cops at the newsstand so I quickly got on the Coney Island bound F train before the doors closed.
Hopefully when I use my summer for photo tours I will get some good redbird shots on the No.2,5,6,7 Lines.
That's funny! Maybe the station cleaner was having a bad day or something. If that were me I just might have had a hard time keeping a straight face. However, police, conductors, T/Os, station agents, - I take heed of all of them.
Wayne
Hey Pelham Bay Dave Jr, Maybe we should get together and take alot of redbirds before they replace R142. I been taking picture of Redbird for months now and i took some of redbird yesterday. Well i love riding on the redbirds.
Here's a good spot to take pictures of Redbirds in action:
The NORTH end of the SOUTHBOUND #2/#5 platform at East Tremont/Bronx Zoo/West Farms Square station. No flash needed. Vicious curve.
Another good spot is the north end of the northbound platform at Simpson Street on the same line. In fact, the whole elevated line from Jackson to East 180th is a good place to take pictures of trains, stations, and some beautifully rehabilitated pre-war buildings in the background, esp.at Simpson and at Prospect.
Wayne
Hey Wayne That a good spot to take picture at East Tremont Station and Simpson St too. But i live not to far at Simpson St.
That whole line (and the upper reaches of the #1/#9 line as well) are very nice - ornate station houses, old-fashioned woodwork (I think one station even has a stove in it), fancy ironwork, nice detailing. The only complaint I have is those dopey platform lights with the big ugly gray shades. They really look out of place. They did that all over the place - on the Broadway El in Brooklyn, the Jerome Avenue line, etc. Those lights are awful! I like the ones like they have at Sheepshead Bay, Myrtle Avenue (J/M/Z) and Atlantic Avenue (L) with the trapezoid shades. I do believe some of the IRT stations had them too.
Wayne
Hey maybe we should meet on a Saturday along the No.2 Line since that my dads line that day.
Join the club, my friend. I love riding on the Redbirds, too.
I was stopped twice, once before I got a permit (by tthe then NYCTPD), and once after by a supervisor on the
I was stopped twice, once before I got a permit (by tthe then NYCTPD), and once after by a supervisor on the work train I took pictures of @ Whitehall St. The cop informed me that my activity was illegal, but we wound up talking about the subway; the supervisor seemed a little pissed, but considering they had his train in the hole at 3AM on a Saturday Morning......
-Hank
In fact, he's on the right side of the photo.
-Hank
the correct term is to "hold harmless" ,indemnable would be the same as liable.
The photo permits are usually good for a year.
I don't trust you and who need the Permits for taking the picture???? Who do you think you are???? Are you playing game with us?????
This should be interesting. I hope you sent copies to Larry Reuter and Virgil Conway (you would probably get a faster answer)
That sounds like a "Ms. Anderson" to me, Dave!
Wayne
Dave, While I appreciate your legwork on this subject, and years ago actually went to 370 Jay to get such a permit after being threatened with a summons the evening 57/6th opened, Justin is I believe constitutionally correct. Last I looked this was a public entity and as long as the picture taking does not inherently disrupt patrons or employees, our collective and individual right to document our collective property is paramount.
Yeah right and they better not touch me or take my property because i don't trust people like that. That why im very Mean and i do what ever i want. Im going to write some letter to MTA and explain to them that we have the right to take any pictures of Subway cars and buses. My father told me he didn't like the rule and think this is unfair to any one but this is a hobby. IF they don't like it than we should fight again MTA.
Remember this is not Russia, we are American and we do what ever we want
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a.Mean DJ)
PS if you don't like this than don't bother to post me again.
> Remember this is not Russia, we are American and we do what ever we want
You really believe that?
-Dave
The way things are going, we're headed in that direction. Common sense has already been legislated out of existence. Next thing you know, Congress will pass a law making it illegal to criticize an elected official, and anyone busted will be locked up in a psychiatric ward.
It's something that is worth believing in, and even fighting for now and then. David Vartanoff's idea about "collective property" sounds like one approach, although simply being a public place ought to be enough. Perhaps they amount to the same thing.
The thought of the transit system as our collective property is interesting. We do pay taxes for it (surcharges on phone bills, for example) so it could be interpreted as belonging to the taxpayers. Any of our railfan attorneys want to offer their comments?
--Mark
You'll have to forgive me if I have not followed the whole post through it's thread but if I may move the subject a little..... I think taking pictures of trains is a great thing. I'm as big a fan as the next guy. One thing that does irk me though is the photographers who take a picture of the train just as the motormans cab passes by. A few times this happened to me when I was a motorman and the flash can be quite distracting if you're not expecting it. If it were up to me, you could take as many pictures as possible, just be mindful of that flash.
And it is incredibly RUDE to flash a motorman that way. Either we should take the rear of the train or spring for faster film/lenses. Our 'right' to document stops at disrupting your work.
Well, as it says on my permit, and the section of the rules and regs that have been posted, flash is absolutely out, unless you're a credentialed member of the press.
-Hank
The next SubTalk Field trip should be one to Jay (scratch that) Livingstion Street to get permits for all!! Once we get the permits we should take pictures of the new building!!
I had a rather odd reaction upon first hearing about the extent of the tornado damage in Oklahoma. As widespread as the destruction may be, thanks to Oklahoma's strong economy and Sunbelt "can-do" spirit the devastated areas probably will be rebuilt before long. But what if a disaster of similar magnitude had happened in New York? If the Manhattan Bridge lunacy is any example, it would take many years if not decades before the destroyed areas began to look even remotely normal. Not a pleasant thought.
Oklahoma "can do" using federal money. So can many other places. I wonder if the rest of the country would consent to help NYC in the event of a disaster, or would it just send in business recruiters to try to destroy our economic base by moving it out1?
New York can and does rebuild things exactly the way they are. Doing so doesn't represent "change" to the people who believe the city is doomed because so many people who are not like them live here. And it doesn't require an EIS, and MIS, an MOU, and acts of state legislatures, city councils, etc. So you would get the Manhattan Bridge rebuilt as the same thing, and it would immediately stop cracking again.
Replacing it with tunnels or moving the tracks to the center? Furgetaboutit. If Ed Koch had balls and NYC's political culture was future-oriented, they would have done that in 1982.
[re use of federal $$$ to rebuild Oklahoma damage]
It's a pity that NYC can't use federal disaster assistance to replace the Manhattan Bridge. If you consider only the economic losses, a complete shutdown of subway service across the bridge - which I suspect is a matter of "when," not "if" - would have a far worse impact than the Oklahoma tornados. Of course, these losses would play out over time, no dramatic photo ops. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't be severe.
Correct, Larry.
With the city being as vast and 24-hour oriented as it is, it would be next to impossible to tear down and then erect an entirely new structure w/o massive and perhaps economical damage to many businesses & residents of the city.
That's why Ed Koch -- or anyone else -- dare not even suggest such a scheme. New York City is a rebuilder's town -- not an "add-on" or "build-up" town like you might find in the Mid-West or even an east coast relative like Boston.
(Rebuild) Doesn't help with an obsolete design. You have to upgrade. Compare the private-sector with the government. See all those post-1960 office buildings? We have about the same number of office employees now as then, but the average square footage per office employee has gone from 150 square feet to 325. We have about the same number of people in our housing units as in 1940, but 40 percent more rooms. Would any of you cyber-subway fans be happy with replacing existing copper telephone cables with new ones which work exactly the same?
True, the subways are air-conditioned, but otherwise they haven't kept up. And unless you rebuild things exactly the same way, you get stuck in the same mess as before -- EIS, MIS, lawsuits, the whole chebang.
Can anyone tell me why the MTA is doing an Environmental Impact Statement for an extention of the N train to LaGuardia? How on earth could that be bad for the environment? What a CROCK.
The only thing I could think of would be noise pollution, but that really doesn't have any impact on the environment per se.
If they run new equipment on an elevated structure with a concrete roadbed and sound-dampening material embedded in it, like the DC Metro does, you will hardly hear a thing. I was at West Hyattsville station last year and a Green Line train came in; I had my back turned and it came in so quietly I didn't know it was there until I turned around and saw it. Dampening noise on an elevated structure is definitely do-able. It won't be silent, but it can be tolerable.
Wayne
I got the same impression when the R-32s first appeared on the AA. They would pull into 42nd St. so quietly you'd have to be facing the track to know they were there. Or maybe it was because they didn't come rumbling and lumbering in the way the R-1/9s did.
Of course, that's a subway, not an elevated structure. Big difference.
How is this idea:
Build a new half bridge with 4 lanes to one side of the tracks-take your pick as to which side-I go for the now closed tracks for the N train. When it is done(along with 2 new tracks teardown the bridge between the new N tracks and the 6av tracks. Build 2 more new trackas and the rest of the bridge--4 more lanes.(of course there will be a provision for a future upper or lower level). Many cities have replaced bridges that could not be closed using this system. Of course the tracks would be in the center of the new bridge!
Sounds good to me. Perhaps Ed Koch should have consulted you rather than those other engineers when he decide to rebuilt the bridge as it was. But you'd still have the whole approval process. And the trains would still have to make those grades.
Of course the new tracks could have an easier grade! the 6av tracks would remain until the new tracks were completed (The first two of the new tracks where the current N tracks are. The other two trackas would be the roadway.
To our engineer friends: would this be possible-if not why would it be no-go. Other cities can doi it why not NYC
[(re phased bridge replacement) Other cities can do it why not NYC]
You can ask the same question about countless other things, starting with the Second Avenue line (look at all the new lines built in other cities since the 1970s). Or look at how other cities actually manage to build schools in less than a decade. Or, on a much smaller scale, how other transit systems have managed to eliminate "scratchitti" (even PATH's done so).
I can't give you facts and figures, but I can tell you that very few suspension bridges carry rail traffic (freight or passenger). It just is not ideal for rail traffic, I think for several reasons.
It seems like changing the grade of the bridge would be very difficult.
This is why you see so much here that advocates replacing the bridge with a new subway crossing...
The Benjamin Franklin Bridge across the Delaware carries PATCO trains on the extreme outside of the bridge. I think the speed limit for the trains is 35mph. Does it suffer the same torsion (twisting) problem that the Manhattan Bridge does?
--Mark
The Philly people could probably answer this best but the PATCO tracks on the Ben Frank seem to be must more securely fastened to the bridge than the subway tracks on the MannyB. PATCO service is balanced with the same number of trains in each direction thereby balancing out the twist in the bridge. Until Chrystie Street openned in 1967 almost all service ran accross the north side of the bridge producing a definite twist. After Chrystie Street the split was about 2/3's service on the north side and 1/3 on the south side.
I don't believe that the BenFrank suffered the years of the neglect that the MannyB did. I could be wrong on that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually the Patco has a speed limit of about 43 miles an hour on the bridge so I have been told by a PATCO operater. The Ben Franklin was well built.
You are correct about the location of PATCO tracks and their structural support. On the Manhattan, the tracks are closer to the center of the structure, thus the support cables will be subject to more torsion. On the Ben, the trackways are on the outer edges of the bridge outside of the main cable line, thus there is less torsion. The trains run equally on either side normally, unlike Manhattan.
The main cables on Ben are about to be rehabbed for the first time in the bridge's 73 year history (the bridge will also be completely stripped of its paint, also for the first time - repaintings up until now have merely been placed atop previous coats). The south side cable is being worked on at present.
PATCO trains top out at about 35 on the trip across the bridge, which makes the bridge run one of the slower spots on the line. The operator indication is (I believe) yellow over green on the console, which is a 35 limit. This is not as much a structural consideration as it is related to grades - the trains work on the upgrade, but mainly coast and brake on the down side (each about a 4-5% grade). The bridge is also one of the only places on the line which retains jointed rail segments, and this contributes to the slower speed limits. I've heard operators say they can hit 40 on the down side before the computer brings them down lower. You will notice that the trains are often passed by traffic on the bridge, which usually has a 45 mph limit.
I'm not an engineer, but I do believe that I understand the reasons it can't be done.
1. A suspension bridge can't be built in parallel sections, unless each section is independently suspended (this would preclude removal of one-half of the old bridge).
2. The only way to contruct a new half-bridge that would clear the East River sufficiently would be as a half-suspension or half-cantilever - in other words, as a structurally complete bridge in its own right, but with preparations to share its piers or towers with another such bridge after the old structure is removed.
The half-bridges you see today are generally relatively low-stress highway bridges on closely spaced pilings.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK-revised plan: how about a new bridge outside of the NR tracks-not suspension bridge and another new bridge outside of the 6av tracks. also not a suspension bridge, make both bridges with two decks of four lanes each-oh yes, each new bridge will have two subway tracks between the left 2 lanes and the right 2 lanes).
The Manhattan bridge could then be left for cars only and all tracks removed and replaced by roadway-under this plan the upper roadway could be cars only.
Would this work from an engneering standpoint I understand that the NIMBYs are already gathering when they read this message :-)
Building a new bridge to take the traffic while the others were repaired, and then ending up with one more bridge than before, is what federal DOT recommended -- and Ed Koch turned down. Someone should demand an explanation. He should be held accountable for his mistake, the biggest of his 12 years in office.
I think you can have one -- either a rebuilt Manhattan bridge or a new structure, but not both.
The problem with a new bridge, especially on the Manhattan side, would be the construction of an access ROW where buildings currently stand, and probably connecting overpasses to the FDR drive, similar to the ones built to the Brooklyn Bridge in the late 60s.
Putting a new bridge in-between the Manhattan and Brooklyn bridges would bring the ramps right into the Chatam Square area, which would create a major NIMBY problem. bringing it in to the east of the Manhttan bridge would probably require it to connect up with Allen Street near Canal -- slightly less disrputive, but bound to draw protests.
A bi-level tunnel, with cars on the upper level and the subway lines (a possibloy even an LIRR connection from Brooklyn to lower Mahattan) beneath the car lanes, which would run to Brooklyn from near the foot of Allen/Pike streets would be less invasive of the surrounding neighborhood, though it would still produce a fine crop of NIBMYs at the public hearings.
Larry and J Lee's comments cover the subject pretty well. As I mentioned before, a low-level multi-pier bridge wouldn't be practical for the area, leaving few alternatives to suspension or cantilever, and roadway access becomes a major problem even there. Whatever approach is ultimately taken, buildings will be taken down, neighborhoods altered, and the NIMBYs will do their best to prolong the process. A new subway tunnel will stir up the least NIMBY opposition and is therefore probably the best alternative.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But what if a disaster of similar magnitude had happened in New York?
The South Bronx is only now recovering from its lowest point of the late 70s and 80s. I didn't see any government agencies rushing in to help out. (Oh, but that wasn't a "natural" disaster ....)
--Mark
It is important to remember that most of the damage sustained in Oklahoma is insured -- in many cases right down to the level of lost business profits. In the event of a destructive event, policyholders can take the money and rebuild (as most will likely do in Oklahoma) or take the money and run (as most did in the South Bronx during the 70's).
The city could insure the Manhattan Bridge against damage from tornadoes, but no insurer in their right mind would insure the city for damage from neglect.
[The city could insure the Manhattan Bridge against damage from tornadoes, but no insurer in their right mind would insure the city for damage from neglect.]
On the other hand, if a city or county lets people build houses on a high-risk flood plain, Uncle Sam is perfectly willing to sell them flood insurance, usually at a decent price. I don't see a huge difference between that situation and the Manhattan Bridge debacle. Except that there's no federal $$$ that can be used for replacing the bridge.
You won't find me defending the National Flood Insurance Program. It should have been killed long ago. But, as Mom always said, two wrongs don't make a right. Negligence should not be rewarded. Over the years, the city has had the money to replace and repair the Manhattan Bridge many times over but has chosen to waste money on bureaucracies in health care, government, education etc. (I'm sure Larry Littlefield can run off the numbers far better than I can).
People rowing around in canoes and boats seem to be sympathetic characters -- even if they row around year after year (See Wayne, NJ for a local example). For whatever the reason, people who continually re-elect irresponsible politicians who squander money into pet causes don't get that same sypathetic treatment. Go figure.
What's this about Wayne, NJ? I'm asking only because I used to live in the next town over, Pompton Plains.
It's just about an annual rite of spring -- heavy rains combined with warm temperatures melt snow up river and the Passaic River overflows into the part of Wayne south of Rte. 46. Residents float around in rowboats, local news media come out and interview residents, and then everyone makes claims for flood damage from the National Flood Insurance Program.
That's interesting. I don't recall any persistent flooding problems in that area when we lived there. When we commuted to New York on Saturdays, our bus used to go right by that area. That's where Willowbrook Mall is. Then again, when we first moved to Jersey in 1967, the water table was quite low due to the drought which had persisted in the early and mid-60s. Our house had a well with an electric pump, and our garage door had a "Well water used" sticker on it. Around Memorial Day in 1968, a monsoon hit, causing widespread flooding. The Pompton River overflowed and washed out a bridge at Jackson Ave. By the time we left for Connecticut in 1973, the water table had risen to the point where we would get water in our crawl space if it rained heavily for any extended length of time.
Just remember as MY mother used to say:
"Two wrongs don't make a right, but two Wrights make an airplane!"
"If you cant't make two ends meet, make one vegetable!"
O. K....
And now for a subway joke or two:
What do the R-10s have in common with tennis players?
They both raise one helluva racket.
What's the difference between an R-16 and a Nerf ball?
The Nerf ball would bounce right back if a BMT standard were to hit it.
I think it's time to make like a banana and split.
Maybe I nitpicking....BUT - you cannot blame the Feds for the Manhattan Bridge disaster. Even in oklahoma, the locals/state had to ASK the feds for $$$ for relief. In the case of the Manhattan Bridge, Larry's right. The local leadership has been spineless, and/or spent their lobbying power going after other things besides transportation capital.
This doesn't change the fact that NY and all the other NE states send a lot more money to DC than they get back. I think this is largely rooted in the fact that their are two seats in the Senate for every state, regardless of size...
About the only way you would have the same type of concern nationally about the Manhattan Bridge as there is with the Oklahoma tornadoes or other natural disaster is, unfortunately, for a spectacular mishap to occur on the bridge, with the corresponding loss of life as there was in Oklahoma.
I don't think anyone wants to see an R-68 plunge into the East River in order to get some federal funds for repairs, but in the age of 24-hour news channels and pack jounalism like nobody's business, it would take a major structure failure, or a boat hitting the bridge similiar to what heppend at Tampa Bay a decade ago, to pry open the federal coffers for repair or replacement work.
(Don't blame the FEDs). Actually, the federal government urged the city to replace the bridge. But it didn't provide any extra money. Basically, NY State gets a share of the federal transportation pot (five percent, although we pay 8 percent of federal taxes). Using federal money for one thing means taking it away from something else. The only exception is "demonstration projects" like the big dig and the new interstate to nowhere.
The FEDs wanted the city to build a new bridge, then tear the old ones down (Manhattan and Willie B -- except for the towers I guess) and replace them. The city would end up with an extra bridge. But Koch didn't want to go through the trouble of siting the extra bridge.
Then there are the white welfare issues. You could build new tunnels with tolls, but the politically connected want free bridges. They get city parking permits to park on the street in Manhattan for nothing. If the East River Bridges had tolls, they would be replaced. But because of the illusion that they are already there and are thus "free", they remain.
Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is this new interstate to nowhere? When we lived in Jersey, it was I-287 when it ended in Montville. Thankfully, it's finished now.
Maybe the Interstate to nowhere is I-99 in Pennsylvania
its really a shame. the reason why NYC gets nothing from the Feds is simply because we are NYC. Big Cities like NYC carry a stigma of being moral black holes where poor people and criminals dwell, sex shops abound and dirty politicians feed off tax money. NYC should be viewed as a cultural oasis because it is. Our bridges may be crumbling but we still make due with out help from the rest of the country or state for that matter. We have the best damn subway system in the world and what makes it even sweeter is that we did it without significant help from the feds or the state(all they do is rob us of our tax money). Until the Nation's Politcal ethos changes things will stay the same.
BTW: i think that if the Manhattan Brige should fall into the East river, we'll find a way to pull through (the B&D can run from CI up the brighton line through the rutgers street tunnel and the N,Q(new west end line) and R can use the montague street tunnel. How 'bout that!
"Watch out -- extreme congestion ahead!!"
(B&D could run through the Rutgers) There is no connection between the two. The MTA proposed building one as an emergency measure, but no one paid attention.
All kidding aside, if the Manhattan Bridge were to be shut down to all subway traffic, let alone collapse, subway service in Brooklyn would be severely crippled. One scenario: no Brighton express service, with the D cut back to 34th St. or Grand St., and the Q making all local stops while running via tunnel. The B would be reduced to a West End shuttle. With any luck, the N might still run express along 4th Ave.
Not a pretty picture.
(If the bridge closes) Not enough room. If the Q goes through the tunnel, the N and the B both become shuttles to Pacific. R, Q and M go through -- 25 trains, compared with 50 now, and all with that extra 10 minute crawl to Midtown.
Suppose the M were to be permanently cut back to Chambers St. when it wasn't running as a shuttle?
(Service without the Manhattan Bridge). You're still stuck with 25 trains per hour going through the tunnel, no matter how you slice it. Which would they be, and where would they turn around? Who knows.
Current peak service through DeKalb is R9, N9, D9, Q9, B7, M6. That's 49 trains. Now cut it in half. Any suggestions?
The bridge goes, and we're dead meat.
That's it right there, in a nutshell. Period.
This is the ultimate challenge for you rail buffs. Give me the line, signal and lever number of the signal with the most number of aspects. For example:
Home Signal
Two Block Grade Time (S aspect)
Single Block Grade Time (lunar white aspect)
Station Time (illuminated speed)
D aspect
Third Yellow
All this must on one signal. This is COOOL. Give me the answer.
Sounds like some thing around DeKalb, or Pacific St on the BMT. Does this have to be specific? Like survey #?
Shame you couldn't include Pennsy/LIRR Position Lights.
Sounds like something near E180th St on the 2, 5 lines
I can't think of the exact signal #, but how about the J line in the vicinity of Chauncey St., middle track?
I'm going to take a stab at this one. It's been a while since i've been up at the east but.....it's either
A-16LCD Tk Y-1 s/b from Morris Park leading into the East 180 interlocking on the #5 or...
B-16LCF Tk 2 s/b from Bronx Park East leading into the East 180 interlocking on the #2(or the #5 supers from White Plains).
The only other signal I could come up with is on 3 track at the north end of 238th Street n/b on the White Plains line, but it's been ages since i've been that far north.
This is a very thought provoking question. How about some more.
What does "BMT,IRT"....ext. Stand for on the New York subway system?
Check out the Subway FAQ -- this question is described in there.
-Dave
Hi All,
The photos from the Willy B. trip came back and are mostly pretty good. I have put a selection of them up in a new Field Trips section that will hopefully grow over time. Please, check them out at:
SubTalk FieldTrips
Also, if you did go on the Willy B trip and you're in the group photo, please point yourself out to me-- sorry to say I don't recall all the names and faces. You can just email me then I'll update the page. Thanks!
-Dave
Those were great pictures. Hopefully I'll come to the next trip.
To Dave Pirmann
The picture is great but i wish i was there with you guys and enjoy the last ride at Willy Bridge. Any way i hope to meet you guys next time maybe in Bus festival on May 23. Who know
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
P.S. I think that person is playing game with Railfans but we have the right to take pictures.
Great photos! Perhaps I'll join you on another field trip or maybe Peg and I can organize one down the road a bit. I'm debating whether or not I should formally apply for a photo permit...I have to think about this one carefully - new regulations (or reactivated ones) hint at enforcement.
Wayne
G-r-e-a-t photos, thanks for posting them ... almost makes me feel like I made the trip.
Mr t__:^)
I'm third from the left. (and it's Andersen, not Anderson :-)
In the NY Post Thursday May 6, page 32, is an article about the TA set to clean up with adopt-a-staion plan.
Numerous businesses would put up cash - along with their name - as part of the Adopt-A-Subway program to help clean up subway stations.
After the good folks of SubTalk reads the article, your most excellent thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
It's about time. Chances are the big companies will only be willing to adopt central business district stations, and stations in affluent Manhattan neighborhoods. But, heck, that means more regular money left to clean stations in the rest of the city. Like the WEPs, the PR value of adopt a station is a wasted resource. Let's use it!
Perhaps some of the guys might be willing to put in bathrooms.
Adopt-a-station may be a new idea, but similar programs have been used for highways for years. It might be interesting to see how well these highway programs have worked (although highway cleanliness isn't easy to quantify).
The highway programs are a little bit less severe than what would be required by NYCT. Families, groups or other organizations adopt one- to two-mile stretches of highway and go out and clean up debris two to four times a year in most states.
I know some stations seem like they're cleaned on that schedule, but the private firms will probably have to pay the salaries of full-time cleaners under this program.
Whether that means they pay their own, or subsidize NYCT's janitorial staff probably depends on what's in the union contract.
(How implemented). My understanding is that in NYC those adopting a highway don't clean it, they just pay for it. I assume the T.A.s program would work the same way.
One potential problem is that if a private company is paying for a station to be cleaned, they would insist on it being cleaned, and that raises union/management issues. The union workers would have to do their job, and the money could not be diverted to management salaries.
It was in the paper recently that a rich donor made a huge donation for scholarships to his alma mater, but found out that the school had raised prices and was giving less in scholarships than before! He was outraged, and is demanding the money back.
Having participated in an 'adopt-a-highway' with my brother's Fraternity, there is no money involved. DOT will provide a road safety crew, garbage bags, rakes, shovels, whatever, and the group cleans the highway.
-Hank
[Having participated in an 'adopt-a-highway' with my brother's Fraternity, there is no money involved. DOT will provide a road safety crew, garbage bags, rakes, shovels, whatever, and the group cleans the highway.]
I don't see why that approach wouldn't work with subway stations. As long as the sponsor's cleaners don't enter tunnels or descend to track level, safety issues should be less of a problem than with highway cleaning.
Now the unions, that's another thing entirely.
actually you are wrong. in new york city, sponsers pay the city for a mile of roadway which is then spenton paying a contractor to do the cleaning. you are correct that in many other places, including some parts of nyc, individuals or clubs, etc. do the actual cleaning.
Believe it or not, some stations are already adopted such as Church Avenue on the D/Q( Erasmus Hall H.S.)- there is a small plaque near the Station Service Booth (New name for Token Booth) at the Church Ave entrance.
Many stretches of highway have been "adopted", sometimes by people you would never expect. For example, Bette Middler has "adopted" part of the Bronx River Parkway. Why, I don't know. More commonly, highway stretches are adopted by local businesses and by institutions such as hospitals. If subway stations get adopted at the same rate as highway miles, the program should be pretty successful.
Bad idea -- I can't stand too much commercialism, and the MTA is essentially passing the buck in saying that they can't keep the stations clean. I acually think most stations are in pretty good shape and don't need much more effort in cleaning them.
Not true. The TA needs to make due on limited funds. If they can get corporations involved in the upkeep of some stations, especially those that serve a mass number of passengers or their corporate offices, the better THEY look to the public, and the better the TA is to spend their limited funds in other areas. There's some good to commercialism.
-Hank
YEah---I agree. I don't want to see more unnecessary ads in a subway station. Especially if all the ads are by the same company because they're goin to adopt it. If Chase adopts a station---people are gonna think that there's a damn bank in the subway. No good---Can it.
OK, no ads in the subway, lets see, that'll about double the previous operating deficit. Why is it that so many people are reality-impaired in this city? Mass Transit is essentially a public benefit, and one that cannot be done without in this city, just like the Fire and Police departments. You maximize revenue by doing things such as selling advertising and allowing film crews to use the facilities for a price. You don't say 'there should be no advertisements, because they're unneccesary' They're very neccesary.
-Hank
It's interesting to note that a long-time family friend, the late Oliver Leeds, was the sole individual responsible for the TA's 'Adopt-A-Station' plan.
Leeds was a subway rider who lived on the J Line. During the late 70s the graffiti and general appearance of the Lorimer St. station so annoyed him that he took it upon himself to scrub and wash the station walls on his weekends (and whenever possible).
Obviously, once the MTA found out he was doing this he was treated like a criminal -- trespassing or some such thing being thrown at him (although he of course never when outside the normal confines of the platform). true, they reasoned that if he injured himself on their property they'd be held libel.
He knew some people in print media and got written up a few times -- I recall Jim Dwyer in particular as one who covered Oliver's trials and tribulations with MTA management on a regular basis. Due to the coverage, the transit bigshots got around to seeing that SOMETHING had to be done to curb the disgusting state of many of the stations throughout the system. Since money was tight -- and not wanting copycat acts of Leeds -- they came up with the 'Adopt-A-Station' program. Contrary to what has been mentioned, this program is not new and had been implemented either in the late 70s or early 80s.
Anyhow, if I can dig up any of the articles from Dwyer's old columns (from the defunct New York Newsday) in relation to the above, I will certainly post them here.
Doug aka BMTman
(Oliver Leeds cleaned up a station on his own). An amazing story. It so often happens that when someone tries to do something good, the bureaucracy gets in the way. And why? Because no one in the bottom ten levels of it is allowed to make a decision. In a sane world, you could go to the lowest level manager responsible for a station and ask permission, and he'd give you an indemnity form to sign and some supplies.
It's also amazing that many of the people who work every day, then do volunteer work on their own time, are against workfare. Who are these worthless people with absolutely nothing to contribute? Haven't met one yet. Mass transit needs all the resources it can get -- whether from corporations seeking publicity, voluneteers, WEPs, even Al Gore (though I wouldn't count on him).
How about the subtalkees adopting a station of our own! Each of us would a specialty that we can take of. Subway Buff would clean the token booth, Rosenthal would keep all signals clean and Hank could clean the tracks and third rail!
Hey, why do I get to clean the tracks and third rail? I wanna shine the turnstiles!
-Hank :)
And I'll be out there with my tile, nippers, cement (LatiCrete, of course-NYCT Approved) and grout patching up holes and gaps in friezes.
Next stop - Montrose Avenue.
Wayne :o)
Down in North Carolina, which I still call home even though I'm stuck in New Jersey right now, Adopt-A-Highway is supplemented by another group of highway cleaners that really does a better job - the chain gang. It's probably too politically incorrect for New York, but I think it would work very well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Say "chain gang" and the liberals cringe. Seems rational to me. Down in Maryland non-profits can get prison gangs to clean up property - like certain rail orgs that get busload of guys in orange jumpsuits to clean up trash, junk and the stuff that people hate to touch. The guards (that's non-pc for Correctional Officers) are nice people, too. They all seem to have neat ideas for dealing with the crop of miscreants currently clogging up the system.
I am amused by some people's response to "driverless" trains. (See the discussion under East New York reconstruction.) How many of you refuse to ride elevators?
No offense meant, just something to ponder.
Bill
I will Refuse to ride on Automatic Train Control if they put on IRT. Because it is too danger for New York City and too many Cruves.
I think a point made earlier was excellent -- how PATCO requires train operators to use manual control for part of the ride. This will ensure the operator is on the ball and alert, while removing the problem of having their concentration flag, something that could happen to any of us. Because of the human error factor, I believe we would be safer with automatic train control.
As for OPTO, we would all be spending 50 percent of our income for food if farmers were not allowed to use tractors. Because of tractors and other productivity enhancers, farming has gone from 50 percent of the workforce to five percent -- but we all get cheaper food. The auto industry has cut the number of people needed to build a car in half since 1980. There are fewer auto workers, but they are well paid, and we get cheaper cars. TWU members benefit from productivity elsewhere.
As long as no layoffs are involved (just attrition), I don't see a moral basis for objecting to higher productivity. The result is some combination of higher wages, lower prices, and better quality, and the jobs are always made up somewhere else in the economy.
Me Either. But the contetion that the IRT is unsafe for OPTO because of curves (and I'll assume he means station platforms, not the railroad) is easily solved. Two conductors on the curved platform, who can signal the operator, just as they do now at Fulton St (4/5) and Grand Central. It still saves money, since now instead of 10 trains with 2 crewmembers, you've got 10 trains with one crewman, and 2 people permanently staffing a station.
-Hank
OPTO is unsafe from many points but it falls on deaf ears. How many people will have to be injured simply to save money? does anyone believe opto is going to significantly lower the cost of your ride? the other costs to operate and maintain will eat away at anysavings made from crew reduction. More technical staffing will require high cost to maintain high tech equipment. with the growth of subway ridership will it be safe to have one person operating the train and doors from one position on the train? higher dwell time in stations will reduce the number of trains in operation....were would these platform conductors be located(what stations) would they be doing conductor duties on platform including sweeping platforms too...oops I forgot WEP would be doing that, instead of hiring these people at a decent wage and benefits and getting off of gov't support they'd be cleaning for dirt cheap and still keep the meager monthly stipend and health benefits cost of the tax payer, hmm sounds smart why don't we hire foriegn/migrant workers next?
A. Pardi: thanks for airing some things that I just couldn't get around to putting into words. Very good points.
Doug aka BMTman
thank you! I was just shooting from the hip.
Mr. Pardi, you sound like me! Welcome to the club of rational thinkers.
thank you!!
The club of rational thinkers is rather large. It now includes upstate dairy farmers who have rigged up a government regulatory system (the Northeast Dairy Compact) to force New York City residents to pay more than other people for milk. Self interest, or perceived self interest, tends to concentrate the mind, which has a remarkable ability to figure out reasons that what is good for you is good for everyone else too. You should hear some the arguments the Dairy Farmers made -- we should be grateful for that extra 40 cents a gallon. I expect "rational" oil prices sometime soon to preserve the profits of independent oil producers in the Southwest.
Those who have never been on a dairy farm should be aware of a family farmer's daily work schedule. 4:00 am wake up - 5:00 am, begin morning milking - 7:30 am, finish milking,clean barn(3 tons of cow waste) - 11am, barn is clean and manure spread, time for lunch. 12noon, run errands,repair equipment etc- 5:30 pm, supper- 6pm. evening milking 8:30pm GOOD NIGHT!furthermore all able bodied members of the farm family share in as many of these chores as possible BTW most of that price increase went into the deep,deep pockets of fat cat processors because right wing politicians ,spouting Ayn Rand Atlas Shrugged trash,made sure the law was written that way Oh, well maybe someday we will have a matrix of taxes and regulations that will ensure that that the hard working little guy gets his fair share while allowing the investor to realize an equitable return on his investment BUT NO MORE THAN THAT.
Aha -- smoked out a dairy farmer! I actually do here the dairy point of view, because my in-laws retired to dairy country in Delaware County, NY. I once asked a farmer (at the county fair) why the government should be involved in deciding on the price of dairy products at all. His reason is that because milk is perishable, the farmer is not in a position to negotiate with the processors. In that case, why don't the farmers found a coop (a la Ocean Spray), buy equipment, process their own milk, and cut Delwood off at the knees. NO ONE likes the processors, and people would pay more for a gallon that says "direct from farmers with no middleman."
I know the dairy industry is shriking, but that is despite a maze of government regulations. Having the government solve your problems doesn't help anyone in the long run. And no one shed a tear when the number of NYC residents employed in banking fell from 120,000 to 60,000, with clerical workers taking the brunt.
Good idea, really. BTW, I work in industry, not dairying but i've known a few farmers and they EARN everything they have
This is off topic (you don't have E-mail address) - milk is down a dollar plus a gallon where I live (LI)- from 3.99 to 2.57 as of the first of April. Gas is another story - the b@#$%&*s are gouging again. Someone's getting rich at our expense.
As for OPTO - all this conversation back and forth - It will not work in NYC as envisioned. The system is too old and would cost too much to retrofit. Maybe on shuttles and confined lines like the "G" and "L" and "M" but not on long-haul, high-volume lines like the "A", "D",
"E", "F", #2, #4, #6, #7, etc.
Wayne
I feel like a parrot. Find me examples of persons being injured that are directly related to OPTO operations ANYWHERE. It's much cheaper to maintain electronics than pay salaries, unfortunately. The US workforce is going to shrink in the coming decade, because, face it, technology can replace humans all too easily. No one cried for the elevator operators, none cried for the bankers, or the stock brokers, or the gas pump guys (everywhere but Jersey), or the health care professionals, or the Pullman Porters, or the typewriter manufacturers....
-Hank
(No one cried for) The bank examiners. There are now multiple agencies with bank examiners (silly, eh)? If the House, Senate and White House agree on a banking reform bill, there will be only one, and depending on who that is, my wife may be out of a job. But does that mean all the overstaffing is a good idea? No.
The workforce will not shrink as a result of technology. The result is always job growth elsewhere. Always in all of history.
No, the workforce will not shrink as a result of technology.
But the question is, will technology be used to benefit everyone, or will it be used as a weapon to force the majority of us into sweatshop-level wages and working conditions and increase profits for those at the top?
If I really believed that they would use money saved, if any, to have ex-conductors serve as TO's for additional service, perhaps it would make sense. But I think everyone knows that when they cut municipal services in one way, the savings are not used to improve them in some other way; most likely the savings, if any, would be poured into some financing shell game and end up god knows where, but certainly not in something that benefits the public.
I once read something about the replacement of old grocery stores with supermarkets-
(Far before my time) it used to be that grocery store clerks would help you with your selections, retrieve them from the shelves, most places you could leave your shopping list, come back, and they would have your bags made up for you, etc.
Supermarkets came along, cut service, & promised more selection and lower prices. The old-style grocery stores died out. As soon as they did the prices crept upwards in the supermarkets.
Some economists went and studied the percentage of food expenses that went to retail distributors before and after this change, and it was exactly the same.
Moral of the story: be suspicious when someone promises a pot of gold by cutting service!!!
Hasn't that been the trend in all of society? Service is no longer an issue. Nowadays it's cost, then quality, then availability. Service is least on peoples minds. It's just the way our civilization has evolved. Like auto mats and drivein theaters.
(Price first, then availability, then quality). Yes that is the way things have gone, but there is a reason. Beginning in the depression, many prices were controlled, so the only way to compete was on service. But many people couldn't afford things.
Take airfares. The government controlled prices and they were high. When I was in college ('79-'83), it cost $600 ($1,500 in today's money) to fly home to Tulsa, where my parents lived at the time. We were short of cash, so instead I took a bus to Syracuse, a train (1:02 a.m.) to Chicago, another train to St Louis or Kansas City, a cab to the bus station, hung around the bus station from 1:00 to 3:00 a.m., then a bus to Tulsa. Took me nearly two days each way for a Christmas Visit. Then one year, airline deregulation happened. I flew home for $180, round trip! I'll be going to my 20 high school reunion soon -- cost $360.
Now lots of people resent the decline in service -- and exclusivity. An airplane ride used to be a special thing only special people did. That flight in Tulsa was my first. There was racial exclusion too -- most Blacks and Latinos could only afford the bus. So you hear a lot of gripes from the elite. They also sneer at all those non-college-educated whites, Blacks and Latinos shopping in Price Clubs. Can't we keep them out, so the city can have "character" and everyone can shop in botiques and gourment shops?
Pleeeeeze!
[Now lots of people resent the decline in service -- and exclusivity. An airplane ride used to be a special thing only special people did. That flight in Tulsa was my first. There was racial exclusion too -- most Blacks and Latinos could only afford the bus. So you hear a lot of gripes from the elite. They also sneer at all those non-college-educated whites, Blacks and Latinos shopping in Price Clubs. Can't we keep them out, so the city can have "character" and everyone can shop in botiques and gourment shops?]
While all this sneering and griping may seem like a city thing (can you say Upper West Side?), it exists in the suburbs too. Witness all the opposition to new superstores such as Wal-Marts or Targets. Opponents usually claim they want to protect small town and neighborhood shopping areas. Yet many of these areas already have been in decline for years, and in any event there's no particular reason to believe that the superstore opponents ever were regular patrons in the first place. Or the opponents claim that Wal-Marts and Targets will generate too much traffic - as they zoom around everywhere in their new SUVs. Can you spell "hypocracy"? I'll take the cynical approach and assume that opposition to superstores would be a lot less if they didn't attract such a diverse group of shoppers. In other words, if minorities and poor people didn't patronize Wal-Marts and Targets, much of the suburban opposition would dissipate.
Yep. That reasoning is similar to the ol' Staten Island Secession talk back during the Dinkins' Administration. Funny how once he left, all that talk disappeared. It was totally racially motivated.
On a lighter note:
Yes, I can spell "hypocrisy", thank you very much! (big grin)
(Supermarkets did not lower the price of food) And neither did tractors? These are made up facts. Look in the Historical Statistics of the United States and the Statistical Abstract of the United States for real numbers. (Yes I read these books for fun, but I'm also a railfan). At the turn of the century, the average American spent 50 percent of their income on food, and farmers accounted for 50 percent of the workforce. Today, thanks to productivity in farming, processing, and distribution, it is down to less than 10 percent, and just slightly more for the poorest.
Everyone wants to be "protected" from change, which making independent decisions for themselves which make their own life better but can be disruptive for others.
Should we ban the internet to preserve the record companies' cut of the artists profits, and the magazine publishing and bookselling industry? Consider that the cost of books and records, and of mailing magazines, and the risk of printing so many without certainty they will be sold, is such that only the popular artists and topics see the light of day. Could Dave afford to offer this much information the old way. Would we want to pay enough to allow him to break even the old way, let alone earn a profit? If you are against OPTO for job reasons (as opposed to other reasons), why not get off line and pay someone big bucks to print this site out and mail it to you, thereby preserving jobs?
Like other innovations, the internet will/has make life much better for everyone, but THERE WILL BE LOSERS! Now, if you want to talk about compensating the losers, I'm all ears. I certainly would be opposed to OPTO if anyone would be laid off. But, it you want to stop change, GO LIVE WITH THE AMISH! Choose for yourself, not for others.
Unfortunately, OPTO also deals with public safety factors -- so, your comparisions in regards to "stopping change" for the sake of saving jobs vs. money becomes moot if that angle is not addressed.
One of the more difficult aspects of this debate (productivity, job protections, etcetera) is that the costs of competition are tangible, immediate, and borne by discrete groups of people (say, train operators), whereas the benefits tend to be intangible, longer term, a spread over the wider community. The highest cost of having a regulated workforce is not what _does_ happen, but what _doesn't_: creation of new jobs. It's a high-tech company that operates in New Jersey or LA rather than New York or Berlin. The trouble is that in the short term the benefits of deregulation won't appear immediately and won't help the losers. Let's say you're a marginally skilled city functionary who's laid off because of tax cuts. You probably won't be the first hired by a new business formed when the tax cuts take effect.
All of these economic regulations have the effect of protecting insiders (rent-controlled tenants, city workers) at the cost of outsiders (new immigrants, the unemployed). In the long run, everyone probably will end up better off - after a couple of job changes, the city worker will end up with better skills and a good job. But it's very uncomfortable in the meantime. Traditional liberals responded by trying to soak the rich, but the rich were never very soakable and have only become less so. Moreover, the measurable productivity declines that result from higher marginal taxes mean that the very acting of soaking results in less revenue! (Lots of folks scoffed at this "supply-side" argument at first, but the hard reality is that it keeps showing up in very real ways. See, for example, the track records of Sweden and Ireland.) So you're stuck.
Fundamentally, it's not up to government to make outcomes equal, or even more equal. Government can (and should) help people through transition periods with unemployment insurance, retraining assistance, child care facilities and better schools. But keeping people on the payroll for more than their labor is worth costs everyone much more than the benefit to the recipients. Yes, this means more inequality -- but inequality doesn't matter if even the poorest have a decent standard of living. That's more likely with competition than without.
I agree with you wholeheartedly! These are things that I have been saying for years. Taxes and producing goods and services. Look at the whole Metro card thing. TA had to be dragged in kicking and screaming. Those fools thought they would go broke. Now look!
Whether 500,000 people ride or 1,000,000, the trains run. The costs on monday are the same as on thursday. But if over the long run more people ride, and buy their fares in advance. Then more money is raised. The effects of which have been widely publicized.
OPTO, can and will work. But as I have said, here and now the way it's being implemented, it's just plain stupid. Out in the Rockaways, OK. But in the summer on weekends? I don't think it's as safe as the TA would have you believe!
I didn't mean to take the Luddite track there; of course gains in productivity should be good for society as a whole and should be encouraged.
The point I was trying to make is that too often we are being asked to sacrifice (safety, speed, and yes, jobs in this case) in the name of productivity, but then the gains are not returned to the consumers of goods & services or the public at large.
We could have an incredibly productive society where most people work 7 days a week for $1 an hour, but would that be a good thing?
In economics what you get is not what you give but what you have the power to demand. What leverage do transit riders have over the MTA? If OPTO is used to make the subway system cheaper, more reliable, with lower headways, then yes, the conductors will go the way of the typesetters, etc. But I doubt that the benefits, if realized, would be returned to the public.
I'm not saying that technological change shouldn't happen; that's silly. But we should look carefully at what it's used for.
"De-skilling" is probably inevitable and can result in greater efficiency and lower prices, but in the long run what does it do to the quality of life? Will the end result be a huge low-wage service sector serving the few who have access to the new high-tech jobs?
Globalist laissez faire Ayn rand discipiles like yourself are leading this country down the sewer and more and more people are recognizing that free market anarchy is the driving force behind the decline of the standard of living for the middle class(Household Income< $100,000/yr). When the stock market bubble bursts I only can hope that another great leader like FDR comes along to pick up the wreckage of failed free market pipe dreams and don't blame it on Smoot-Hawley, if that law had been enacted 2 years earlier, it's badly needed tariffs and regulations may have lessend the effect of the crash. but with our luck we'll end up with nut case Buchanan. Fact is the prosperity that America experienced after WWII was a result of regulated capitalism and an artifical form of protectionism
(Most of the world's productive capacity lay in ruins, a terrible human tragedy that I hope is never repeated) but the lesson is clear, the anti protectionist pablum that the corporate media is pushing is untrue, just like their gun control garbage, it's all about disempowering the ordinary citizen. Regulated commerce is an idea whose time has come again, just don't turn it into a welfare state like JFK and LBJ did
Why do you think having the government make decisions, rather than individuals, leads to more faireness? The 1950s were fine if you were a white male in a good union in a big corporation. Those people's standard of living has gone down. Everyone else's has gone up.
I am particularly confused by the point of view of many Blacks and Latinos. Their leaders yell "institutional racism" while at the same time supporting policies which give more power to institutions. Will they get a fair shake? NO WAY!
Sad to say, but like any other career politicians, most so-called black "leaders" are only looking out for numero uno (how to further their own ambitions) rather than the ideals of their constituents.
Jesse "Keep Hope alive" Jackson is a good example of a black "leader" who leeches off both his "people" and the American mass media. He's such a career politician that his phoniness pandering and kiss-a--iness (particularly to Wild Bill) ARE WAY too obvious.
Well, I know this is off topic (guilty yet again) but thought I'd add my two cents worth.
Doug aka BMTman
[When the stock market bubble bursts I only can hope that another great leader like FDR comes along to pick up the wreckage. . .}
Mr Blair,
Do you wish to exchange the economy of the past seven years for the economies of the great socialist governments in Europe and the Far East?
I don't think so!
As for regulated commerce, you tell your neighbors they can't get the goods they want to buy and the price they are willing to pay because we don't want to trade anymore.
Jim K.
Chicago
Don't you realize that this bubble economy is just looking for an excuse to pop. I pray for Mr. Greenspan's continued health because if he were to have say, a stroke, the sell programs would drive the dow down 4,000 points within a matter of a couple days and hit the overall economy so hard that the "echo" would drive the markes down a couple thousand more. BTW, most historians would agree, FDR was probably the greatest president of the 20th Century. If say, Willkie was elected in 1940, America probably never would have entered WWII with disastrous consequences for all of humanity. As it was, Right wing opposition to the war, caused WWII to last much longer than it would have had to with millions more deaths. Let me see, FDR saved the nation from depression and the world from fascism, he deserves a lot more respect than "Im not a crook" nixon and "celluloid cowboy" reagan Furthermore, calling everyone who disagrees with you a socialist or communist is a hallmark of the kind of Ken Starr Mc Carthyism that will elect Al Gore in 2000. Unfortunately Mr. Gore's no FDR either
[Furthermore, calling everyone who disagrees with you a socialist or communist is a hallmark of the kind of Ken Starr Mc Carthyism that will elect Al Gore in 2000.]
Mr. Blair, Sir, I refuse to go any further with political discussion with you. You have and are entitled to your beliefs and I have mine. As far as I'm concerned, we must agree to disagree.
If you think that FDR's New Deal applies to our economy today, then we will disagree. We can look at this in another way. To end the depression Mr. Roosevelt needed a war. My question would be: "How many Americans died to get the US out of the depression?"
As for the economy, that bubble should have burst long ago. I guess we both will have to sit and wait to see how it turns out. On the plus side is that we are again getting involved in a military action.
One thing that I will agree with you on is that this country owes a great deal to Mr. Greenspan. Without his guidance, we wouldn't be having the great economy we are enjoying today.
Jim K.
Chicago
FDR didn't start WWII, Hitler did -- FDR finished it, THANK GOD
Look I'm probably as far "left" as anyone on the board, as such things were understood a long time ago. But the fact is that in government money flow to power not to need. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a Rip Van Winkle liberal (ie. asleep for the past 30 years and hasn't noticed what has happened) or out for a special deal themselves. Someone else will pay for that deal. And they won't be richer than you are.
Yes there are all kinds of abuses in the private economy. I have no illusions about that either. Right now companies are using bookkeeping tricks to disguise falling profits (we are beating them in the marketplace more than they are beating us at the workplace), and it is a bubble and may burst. My best guess is the Dow is worth about 7,500, not 11,000. But no one is forcing us to buy stuff, or buy stock, to puff up the stock options of an overpaid CEO. We have choice. When the federal and state governments starts making choices, the first victim is NYC and the poorest people who live here.
As an historian by training and avocation, albeit not by profession at this point, I feel I must add my two cents' worth.
In my opinion, and in the opinion of many, many historians, the United States got out of the depression in spite of FDR, not because of him. It was that belated realization on the part of the American public that fueled the move to limit the Presidential term in office. Would Wilkie have done an effective job preparing our nation for entry into WWII? I don't know. FDR didn't exactly do a great job, in my opinion, but I agree that Wilkie's beliefs were not too far distant from those of Neville Chamberlain (sp?) and accordingly would not likely have done any better. FDR's biggest failing in the conduct of the war, in my opinion, was his unwillingness to save the Jewish (and other) populations of Europe that were murdered by the Nazi machine simply because of their religion or ethnic heritage. The United States turned away shiploads of refugees, sending them back to their deaths, and was also careful NOT to bomb the railroad tracks leading to Auschwitz and the other death camps, or the gas chambers there. FDR, as President and Commander-in-Chief, could have granted the refugees asylum, and could have ordered the bombing of the rail lines and the gas chambers, but he didn't do so.
The greatest President of the 20th century? I don't think so. Theodore Roosevelt and Harry Truman are the top contenders for that award; Harding, Clinton, Kennedy, and FDR are solidly in the running for the worst.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Theodore Roosevelt??
Yes, I know this information about FDR & the holocaust, and it's a shame, a black mark.
But then to put Teddy Roosevelt up for best president, who was himself responsible for a massive genocide in the Philippines while supposedly liberating the Filipinos from the Spanish, but in fact crushing the homegrown Filipino independence movement? Not to mention the de-facto colonization of Cuba & Puerto Rico?
I think everyone knows by now that the New Deal did not end the depression. But I cannot think of any other government action that has done better by regular people for longer than the New Deal social programs that survive.
Sorry for the off-topic post :(
I'll be good I promise.
The Spanish-American War occurred on McKinley's watch, not TR's, and while the economic changes in Cuba and Puerto Rico gathered steam during TR's presidency, I suspect that they would have occurred regardless of who was in office.
As to the social programs: you mean the ones like Social Security, which (including Medicare) costs me about 9% of each paycheck, plus an additional 7+% of that amount that my employer must contribute instead of being able to invest and/or pay me, yet which I will never benefit from when I retire because it will be bankrupt? Or are you referring to welfare, which, while it was intended to be a temporary help so that the genuinely needy could get back on their feet, has become a way of life for four and five (closely-spaced) generations of leeches who have no intention of working (and some of whom would rather sleep in the subway - see, Dave, we're still on topic :-) - so they can use the money for drugs and booze rather than rent)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[As to the social programs: you mean the ones like Social Security, which (including Medicare) costs me about 9% of each paycheck, plus an additional 7+% of that amount that my employer must contribute instead of being able to invest and/or pay me, yet which I will never benefit from when I retire because it will be bankrupt?]
Social Security's impending bankruptcy can be blamed on the pharmaceutical industry. If it weren't for two drugs, there'd be no worries whatsoever about the system's solvency.
What's likely to happen in the relatively near future is that a huge number of people will hit retirement age and start collecting benefits, while for the past 30 years or so there haven't been enough children born to keep the ranks of working-age people from declining. Too many Old Farts and not enough Porch Monkeys, you might say.
Well, if it hadn't been for the development of penicillin, more people would have gone to their reward at younger ages, keeping down the number of retirees collecting benefits. And if it hadn't been for the birth control pill, there'd be a lot more young people!
Of course, it's gotten to the point where penicillin hardly kills anything anymore. Those bacteria have turned into, shall we say, BMT standards in terms of indestructibility.
[Of course, it's gotten to the point where penicillin hardly kills anything anymore. Those bacteria have turned into, shall we say, BMT standards in terms of indestructibility.]
Or you might say that penicillin has turned into the R-44 of pharmaceuticals :-)
I'd go one step further and say penicillin has become the R-16 or R-68 of pharmaceuticals.
I'm sensitive to that stuff, anyway.
To get back on off-topic, if FDR had used more of the depression era spending to build the second system, rather than having guys push brooms, we'd be better off today. FDR started the tradition of redistributing the money of his home state elsewhere in the country -- through roads, interstates, electrification, etc. The cities paid for all that, and sent them on a downward course. As the cities became occupied by blacks and latinos, they have been repaid with bile for their economic suicide. It still goes on today.
FDR should have NUKED GM for the National City Lines EVIL PLOT
Larry, are you blaming blacks and Lations (aka Hispanics) for the decline of the citys? The real blame has to be put on the city government since it greatly reduced services in neighborhoods that BECAME predominently minority -- white flight left voids in police, sanitation, education, etc. -- and of course it was quite obvious that Blacks and Lations were/are/tend to be more at the bottom of the economic ladder than other groups. True, with the influx of heroin and other destructive drugs, the Black and Latino communities had a rise in criminal activity that peaked in the mid 80s. But it must also be pointed out that it is those same communities that have -- in the last several years -- turned around their communities from places of desolation into working, thriving neighborhoods. It is unfair to make Blacks/minorities exclusively the culprits in this matter.
Doug aka BMTman
Blacks and Hispanics are not the problem, it the people they elect, and the fact that eveyone else seeks to suck this city dry and its so called representatives go along with it. Have you read the news this week? It's worse and worse. First, the city decides that it has so little money that it will just have to not provide its children with computers, schools that aren't deteriorated, etc. They the rest of the state decides it has so much that it cancels the commuter tax.
They can't screw Blacks and Hispanics, so the screw the places they live. I live there too, and it makes me mad!
Yes indeed, Doug. TO WIT: The Bronx neighborhood on either side of the #2/#5 line. I couldn't find any abandoned housing stock there, just one or two somewhat dilapidated commercial buildings, around Freeman Street station and a vacant lot near Intervale. Other than that, the neighborhood is in great shape compared to what was in, say, 1979. It's a 180-degree turnaround.
Wayne
[And if it hadn't been for the birth control pill, there'd be a lot more young people!]
Are you advocating more un-parented brats should be running around?
Jim K.
Chicaog
Hey, Jim we do agree on something.
I know this is off-topic, but while we're on the subject...
My folks, like most other DPs (displaced persons) were disappointed with FDR. They were hoping the Allies would keep right on going and liberate eastern Europe instead of stopping at the Elbe River the way they did. With the Soviets closing in on Lithuania in 1944, they fled. Thanks to Truman's Displaced Persons Act, they came to the U. S. in 1949 after spending the interim period in a refugee camp in Kempten. In fact, it was on April 28 that they stepped off their boat in Brooklyn. Their sponsors lived in Linden, NJ.
The Soviets weren't blameless, either. They deported scores and scores of innocent people to Siberia, including many of my father's relatives and even his parents.
Well, enough is enough.
We definetly agree that FDR should have agressively targeted the infrastructure of the Holocaust. That is his greatest failure. Also, Britain paid a terrible price for PM Chamberlain's anti semitism
I think that there are those in Washington who would welcome a Dow drop of 4,000 points. The Gores and Clintons have been selling this country short for years. The pay-off may be just around the corner..
Are you the Damian from the #6 line?
No, I'm Damian from Flushing who is now, unfortunately, living in the transit-cursed city of SF, and wishes he were riding the #7 and not $&%!@ might-as-well-take-the-bus LRV's.
Transit-cursed SF? That's one of the few cities that kept
the wire up, the only city (in the US) that kept the cable
moving, and Market St. has been a PCC renaissance! Of course
BART is a little cheezy, but....
Is this Damian formerly of Park Drive in Flushing?
Ok, ok, from the railfan perspective SF is great.
But from the practical commuter perspective, there are just too many trains and buses that don't come. I must rely on a bus with a 30 minute headway as part of my commute. Often, there will be no bus for an hour. Eventually I'll just decide to walk it. It's easy to be an hour late to work, & my job is unforgiving on this.
I thought I'd throw in a link to a humorous article on MUNI ATO glitches, among other things:
Examiner Article
So while we're on the topic of MUNI, does anyone have information on the former "B-Geary" streetcar line and the circumstances surrounding its' demise in the 50's?
Oh- no I'm not formerly of Park Dr.
I didn't know there were *that* many Damians out there.
There is one person injured as a direct result of OPTO. The woman who was Raped in the last car where the Conductor Should have been!
Was her dignity, and peice of mind worth it? I'm sure Joe Hoffmann couldn't give a damn. He didn't have to pay a Conductor, that's all.
Since when is the conductor in the last car? I thought they operated 4-2 on the G with R46? In any case, what if she was in the fifth car, or the second, or the third? Same result....
-Hank
on PATCO the train operator must make one trip manually daily to remain proficient in train operation, in the event that auto operation fails.
[I will Refuse to ride on Automatic Train Control if they put on IRT. Because it is too danger for New York City and too many Cruves.]
If Chicagoan's took that attitude NOBODY would be riding the CTA.
As much as I was against it, the CTA "persuaded" the unions to "buy-in" on OPTO on ALL lines. The last lines, the Blue and Red, were converted effective on 9 November 1997.
Ridership has actually gone up since then! Or that is what the CTA is reporting.
Jim K.
Chicago
My aunt, who lives right next to the Red line, says it takes longer to get to the Loop with OPTO because of longer dwell times at stations. The Red and Blue lines still use conductors in the subway portions. I asked her if she had seen any of the remodeled 2600-series cars (with the full-width cabs), and she said she hadn't yet.
I'm not so sure OPTO could be implemented system-wide in New York.
[I asked her if she had seen any of the remodeled 2600-series cars (with the full-width cabs), and she said she hadn't yet.]
There are ten low numbered (random pairs) 2600's back from the builder and operating on the Red Line in mixed consists with other 2600's and 2400's assigned to the Red Line. The re-habs are easy to spot as all the paint has been removed from the sides and the ends.
I saw one Red Line going northbound this more with a pair and a southbound "racing" the Ravenswood I was on. I didn't get the car numbers this morning; however, tonight on my way home from the Omnibus Society of America meeting I saw 2659-2660, which is the highest numbered pair back for GEC-Alsthom. I've ridden on them a couple of times and they seem to be like "brand-new" cars.
- Jim K.
Chicago
Thanks for the update. I think this was mentioned previously, but are there timing signals on the downgrade to the north portal of the State St. subway? My aunt mentioned she was on a train which was traveling downhill fairly fast and got tripped. It sat for a period of time, then crept to the North/Clyborne station. After a longer-than-usual dwell time, the train made an unannounced nonstop express run to, I would imagine, Washington St. Not a big deal except that my aunt had to get off at Chicago Ave. Are unannounced express runs typical in Chicago? You'd figure some sort of announcement would be made to that effect. Now, whether or nor people would listen is another issue.
[After a longer-than-usual dwell time, the train made an unannounced nonstop express run to, I would imagine, Washington St. Not a big deal except that my aunt had to get off at Chicago Ave. Are unannounced express runs typical in Chicago?]
After a long day at work and waiting for a train for longer than usual, the announcement that the next stop will be Belmont is music to my ears. Of course, it is not good for those who want stations between the Mart and Belmont, but there is usually a train right behind to make those stops.
CTA uses the express method, skipping stops to a certain station up or down the line to close up the headway.
The Red Line is "famous or infamous" accordingly, for this. I think it's great because the first stop is usually Belmont, which works for me!
As for the trip downtown. The Cab signal system kicks out at Fullerton. From there to Roosevelt Rd the Red Line is protected by wayside signals and side arm trip mechanisms. The signals approaching "the hole" are timed to keep the trains speed in check; however, I've been on at least one train where the operator didn't get stopped in time. This, of course, caused a penalty stop. CTA operators don't have to get out of the train to reset the brakes as the cars are all-electric and there are no air brakes. He/she resets the brake in the cab.
Jim K.
Chicago
OPTO started @ CTA with the 1-50 series cars with fareboxes when CTA offered the union one man or cutting the service in half on the Evanston local line.
Has any independent source (I am thinking of something like DVARP or a newspaper) studied whether CTA can keep their rush-hour schedules with no conductor?
Also, does this mean the days of paying the conductor on the train in the middle of the night are gone? I used to think the way they rang a bell for every fare collected was cool...
[Also, does this mean the days of paying the conductor on the train in the middle of the night are gone? I used to think the way they rang a bell for every fare collected was cool...]
In theory, all stations are open and a Customer Assistant is on duty at any station that has service. I've been through the Wellington station on the Ravenswood Brown Line later in the evening and noticed nobody in the booth. I don't know what the story was there.
However, with the full implementation of CTA Farecards, the handling of cash by CTA employees ceased in June 1997.
No, there isn't any fare collection handled on the trains.
- Jim K.
Chicago
Me, but because I'm afraid of heights. Unfortuneately for me, it's a neccesary evil in this city.
-Hank
But generally, there is only one lift in any one shaft...
True. But of course the elevator could take off with the cab door open or worse the shaft doors open; it could stop between floors or out of alignment with the floor; it could slam into the roof or plunge to the basement, etc., etc.
And probably all of these things have happened, but we take elevator safety for granted.
Bill
I am not a proponent of ATO. I still remember the mess ATO on R-46s caused. However lets keep things in perspective. When the R-46 ATO failed, it defaulted to the 37-N mode. RTO personnel know rule 37-N as key by the signal & proceed at restricted speed, prepare to stop with-in half your range of vision or words to that effect. In ATO, it meant that the train could go no faster that 5 MPH and would have to limp tot he yard where the ATO could be re-set.
As I've said before, my knowledge of signals is quite limited but I do know that the TA requires that all equipment purchased be resistant to 'single point failures' meaning that 2 systems would need to fail simultaneously for the CBTC to fail. In that case, I'm quite sure that the system would default to the equivalent of 37-N or similar.
Most elevators also move pretty slowly, and have a number of fail-safes to prevent them from falling to the ground. In fact I cannot recall this ever occurring. They are a lot more perfected than a subway system at this point.
Ever been in an elevator shaft? At the bottom is a great big spring. A falling car that misses Mr. Otis' invention hits the spring and bounces up about a floor and a half. It falls again (more slowly) and bounces (less) on the spring. Eventually, it stops. Anyone unlucky to be on it will survive, wihout life-threatening injuries.
I know about the springs in elevator shafts. Anyone care to guess what sort of springs the observatory elevators in the WTC have? Or the Empire State Building?
They use the cushioning effect of the air column at the bottom of the elevator shaft
I don't want to test this theory...
-Hank
well with automatic elevators theres nothing else on the same track as a train does so theres one major difference
The Willy B trip looked GREAT!! Makes me very jealous I couldnt make it...However I do have some suggestions for future NYSR 'unofficial' trips...
1) Newark Subway..Goodbye to the PCCS... This is supposed to be rather soon,right? We could meet at PATH-WTC, ride out to Newark, ride the Newark PCCS to the end and back, back to maybe 33rd on the PATH...
2) how about...(I know this would be expensive....and a LONG day..)) a trip to Philly to ride some of the LR and subway.....Meeting at Penn Sta..doing the NJT-SEPTA bit.....
Any other suggestions??....I work for a school district,so weekdays are hard for another month or so...(I know Todd..you work weekends..hmm) But with enuff planning..(name tags...cameras..etc..) This could turn out to be a real great thing....
While it's looking pretty far ahead, and would require some planning, a terrific fan trip would be the first revenue train through the completed 63rd Street connection.
May 22 thr 1st train is supposed to go through. I expect to be there.
May 22nd only marks the return of 6th Avenue Service (Q, B, S) to the 63rd Street tunnel and discontinuation of the current S Broadway shuttle. I think Peter was referring to the opening of the connection to the Queens IND line which, I believe, is still a few years away.
The PCC trip would be great. A weekday rush hour evening would probably be best (the Newark Subway is bustituted on weekends for construction right now). I wonder if anyone with any NJ Transit connections is here ... maybe could work out something special for us...
-dave
That's one on my short list of things to do. I don't what I could do to help organize (live on LI, don't commute to Manhattan), but would be happy to help in some way. Anyhow, if any interest, count me in !
Mr t__:^)
I agree with NJT Newark Subway before the PCC's are gone!!
Please pardon me if this is a repeat ...
April issue of Railpace has a large article on The Newark City Subway, incl many shots of PCC, map & some box motors (1985 photos). A friend had copy so I'll probally NOT be able to get one for myself :-(
Mr t__:^)
Most of the Trolley Poles have been replaced with Pantagraphs for the conversion of the line and the new cars.
I know this still 5 years away, but I'm thinking of Oct. 27, 2004. Something's bound to be planned for that day (you would think), and I can guarantee that I will be on hand one way or another. It's never too early to mark your calendars.
BTW, Oct. 27, 2004 falls on Wednesday.
I will most likely going on a field trip myself covering the Pelham Line now that there are more redbirds on it. It will most likely be Wednesday June 2nd and would be an all day affair. WHen I'm done there, who knows ....
If anyone is interested, let me know.
--Mark
That should be good with all day Pelham Express service and equal Redbirds coming out of Pelham and E 177 St. When you come out with the tape I'll definitly buy it. My son enjoyed your NO.2-5 Redbird tape I brouth for his birthday.
Wonderful! Thanks for the kind words.
I have an updated list that I sent to Dave for placement on the site. As soon as I know it's updated, so will you.
--Mark
That sounds like fun. When you confirm a date and I confirm my schedule, I'll try to come.
How about the Friday before Memorial Day for the Newark PCC trip. That is only if Mr. Traffic and Weather together can make it down from
Beantown that weekend!!!
Unfortunately I won't be coming to NYC that weekend, Aaron. I will be there the prior weekend (22-23 May), and will try to get to the NYDivision/ERA meeting on Friday evening. I rode the Newark PCC line last summer, and it's a great trip... so make sure you get to do it before the cars are retired!
I don't think we can do a field trip without you!!!
You're very kind to say that, Aaron, but there are many capable people on SubTalk who can organize and lead a field trip. In fact I think it would be good to take turns doing so! I'll commit to organzing another one during one of my July or August weekends.
Are you going to Members Weekend at Seashore this Memorial Day weekend? I went last year at that time, and hung around while the R1/9s were pulled out for a round trip up the line.
--Mark
Not sure if I will get to Seashore over Memorial Day weekend, but I'll let you know! I'll be there tomorrow however :-)
Give my regards to 800, 1440, and 3352.
P. S. Isn't it nice to know you're wanted?
Yeah. Chances are that tomorrow I will just wave to the "heavy stuff," but get a chance to operate our Third Aveneu Railway System (TARS) trolley #631. The restoration that our shop did on it was magnificent, and it's being kept in top-notch operating condition too.
Today's NY Times Websight has an article about Al Gore plugging Public transportation.
Not sure If I know how to paste a link.
http://www.nytimes.com/library/politics/camp/050599gore-sprawl.html
If this doesn't work, can someone please explain how?
Gore is pushing using our tax dollars to build mass transit in the suburbs, because the Democrats, like everyone else, is courting suburban votes. It would be another disaster for NYC. We'd pay, but would not get.
[Today's NY Times Websight has an article about Al Gore plugging Public transportation.]
Well, Prince Albert has finally picked a subject to talk about. And it's not a subject that he will get a large percentage of support on from the American people.
Maybe Larry L. can address the percentage of Americans who actually use public transit. I'd say it's safe to put that number at about 15% of the total population. And those who don't use it don't want their tax dollar going to support it.
This is not my feelings, it is just a fact of life. Here in Illinois, the downstaters what NOTHING to do with funding CTA rehabilation projects. Can you really blame them?
- Jim K.
Chicago
(People outside the city don't want their tax dollars going to transit). And I don't want my tax dollars going to pay for roads in places where there is 100 square feet of pavement per person.
Really, that's just the argument for eliminating all federal and state money for all infrastructure. I'm much in favor of that. It's the only way we'll get our own money back.
[Really, that's just the argument for eliminating all federal and state money for all infrastructure. I'm much in favor of that. It's the only way we'll get our own money back.]
Is it true that New York State gets less from the federal government than it sends there? I think I remember reading that.
I'm also in favor of paying for what you use and not be forced to support people who just plain "don't want to work". I don't mind helping those who can't; however, what I pay in federal, state and local taxes, I feel like I'm supporting a small family.
And Larry, BTW, if federal funds are used to build a highway, I believe tolls should be collected and the money paid back, as a loan. Again, we should pay for what we use!
Jim K.
Chicago
Gore talk tooo much and he not very smart. I will never vote for him for next President.
Al Bore and Mr. Bill - what a pair, huh? I didn't vote for them in '92, nor '96. End of story.
Whether highways are built with Federal funds or private funds, we still end up paying in the form of taxes or tolls. Our newest highway in Denver, E-470, is a toll highway. A new segment which links the other two existing portions just opened this past Monday, two months ahead of schedule and $60 million UNDER BUDGET. You can now go from where E-470 and C-470 meet at I-25, where Douglas County begins, all the way to 120th Ave. for $3.50, and if you want to go to the airport, you can do so directly to Pena Blvd. One segment remains to be built, from 120th Ave. to I-25 at 160th Ave. I live about 2 miles north of C-470, and will be checking out E-470 the next time I have to go to the airport.
The state of CT did that with the CT Turnpike. There were 25 tolls every couple of miles for years, now they're gone. What's interesting is they're spending more money on that road now upgrading it.
Mr t__:^)
I think you meant 25-cent tolls every few miles; there were 10 or 11 barriers, if I recall. My father still remembers to this day the 10-cent barrier at the Connecticut River, with traffic backed up for who-knows-how-long, on a Sunday back in 1967. He felt that was just plain stupid.
I remember when the barriers came down. Governor O'Neill felt that since the bonds had been retired, it was time to eliminate the tolls. Ditto for the Merritt Parkway. I was no longer living in Connecticut then; I read about it in the paper.
In contrast, tolls are still collected on the Pennsylvania and Ohio Turnpikes, the Indiana Toll Road, and Illinois Tollways, even though they're paid for. They provide the only source of income for upkeep of these roads.
And, of course, the New Jersey Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway. I can sort of see the tolls on the Turnpike, but the backups at the Parkway tollbooths are ridiculous. There are a variety of plans now afoot to raise the tolls on both roads; one of the ones for the GSP would eliminate some of the tolls and raise others to $1.00, as well as eliminating a number of the interchanges north of the Raritan River. Personally, I'd rather see higher gas taxes - I don't drive very many miles on the Parkway and almost never use the Turnpike, but the ability to move unimpeded - and the resultant gas and pollution savings - when I do use the Parkway would make it worth it.
On the flip side of the coin, removing the tolls would probably add a few more cars to the Parkway - some coming from local roads and others that wouldn't be on the road otherwise because the people would be on the train or bus.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Spending your gas/tax money on more roads and more lanes and more ramps and more interchanges would also lead to more cars on the road.
Agreed. And I don't want that either (unless it's a dedicated exit for a new park-and-ride).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Gas taxes instead of tolls) assumes that the value of all pavement is equal, no matter when and where you drive. In fact, some places are more crowded than others, and more costly, and therefore worth more (ie. bridges, Manhattan). You can charge different prices with tolls, not with gas taxes.
And forget about raising the gas tax. I just don't see it happening.
You have a point, but the cost of driving - and the quality of living - is also affected by the number of miles travelled, the amount of gas consumed, and the time it takes to get there. The GSP toll barriers increase the time it takes to get there and the amount of gas consumed, with relatively little revenue return to the state. Raise the gas tax by a penny or two (or the appropriate amount that would be enough to offset the loss of net revenue after collection expenses), take down the toll barriers on the GSP, and there will be a lot less air pollution from idling engines, and a lot less frustration on the part of many drivers - at least those who aren't heading into NYC. And, if we need to further encourage transit usage, raise the tolls on the bridges and tunnels coming in from New Jersey. (Dare I suggest that we raise the tolls enough to cover the cost of building another pair of rail tunnels under the Hudson? If the geology permits, run them in far enough north of the Lincoln Tunnel to make a reasonable connection into both GCT and NYP [via the Amtrak connection].)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Raise the tolls into Manhattan, and build more road/rail crossings with the money). Most planners and transportation professionals agree. Most politcos do not. And its too bad, because if everything into Manhattan was tolled, we'd get out of a lot of this environmetal impact insanity. Instead of stopping people from building because some people might drive (which doesn't affect the millions already driving) you could limit the number of vehicles entering by raising the toll.
As for the GSP, you may have a point, but raising the gas tax in NJ won't go down very well -- see the reaction to Whitman's open space proposal. Toll plazas also provide jobs, and these are defended politically.
Okay smart guy, how about this:
If taxes and tolls won't wash due to federal, state and interstate politics, why not use city politics to affect change. There could be a city ordinence banning cars with Odd # Licence plates from an area south of 59th street on Monday, Wednsday, and Friday, and Even # plates on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. You could cross the river but you could only use the West Side Highway and the FDR, and maybe 12th Avenue. Anyone caught in the zone with the wrong plates gets a fine and their car impounded. Maybe commercial plates could be exempt. But anyway, the city could use a local ordinance to hold area motorists hostage until the State and Fed politicians come around to our way of thinking. The Mayor who implements this idea would get 90% of the vote in the next election.
What's more, there already is a "driving tax" on the books in NYC. The city need only impose a stringent and sadisitic crackdown on speeding, parking, standing, blocking the box, two wheels in the crosswalk, honking, running yellow lights and inspection violators. Playing your car radio too loud, that's another one I'd like to see a $500 fine for. No Left Turn, or we take your car!!! This would not only give motorists an incentive to Stay the Hell Out, but it would raise millions in revenue. The city could build its own subway for its own constituants and the State and the Fed could, by and large, go to hell!!!
How about expanding the City's No Parking Zones and doubling the cost of parking meters and raising the parking tax to 20%.
How about installing speed bumps, througout midtown!!! Now that would get a message across.
(Why not use city ordinances to restrict?) You don't understand. Everyone who is politically connected in CITY government gets a free parking space. Don't you see all those reserved parking areas around Lower Manhattan (and in Downtown Brooklyn)? They get to drive to Manhattan for nothing, and don't want to give up the privilege. So it isn't just federal and state politics that are the problem. It's the Mayor and City Council and Comptroller and Public Advocate and commissioners and assistant commissioners etc.
We currently limit cars by limiting parking spaces in new commercial and residential development -- a stupid policy. That makes it harder for CEOs of companies with thousands of taxpaying, transit riding employees to drive in (so they move their businesses to the suburbs where everyone drives), but doesn't affect those who get a permit to park on the street (illegal for the rest of us in the CBD during the workday). Parking permits are given out as perks, and it is non-taxed income. That's one reason I'm so pissed we don't get transit-check.
Can not companies give out Metrocards to their employees as non taxable income? I believe that I brought this up once before.
Step 1.
Istead of a bonus or a raise, give all of your employees an Unlimited Ride Metrocard every month. (this will reduce your payroll and thus your payroll tax)
Step 2.
Claim that the cards belong to the company and are for company use, after all, my employees need to feel they can get somewhere by train if the have to. This way you can write the cost of the cards off as a business expence.
If an employee "also" uses the "company" card to get to and from work, who's going to question it???
Transit minded companies can also milk the system for perks.
(Transit minded companies can milk the system for perks). Unfortunately, the City of New York and its associated unions are not transit oriented. If they were, poor kids would be able to play in their school playgrounds, rather than having them reserved for staff parking.
Once again you are right. I'm just looking for the angles.
I recall a few years back there was a big stink about Congress getting free parking in and around DC. In the end, they voted to uphold their parking spaces and all their other perks but at least there was some embarassment over the whole thing.
There are a couple of other groups beside city-government big shots who benefit from free on-street parking in Manhattan. A couple of weeks ago, I read about a woman physician at Beth Israel Hospital who was whining over the fact that people were illegally parking in the reserved doctors' parking on the nearby streets. Gee, didn't it ever occur to her that just maybe the subway would be a better idea? I suspect everyone more or less takes it for granted that the nature of a physician's job requires convenient parking. Whether that's really true is another matter. The second group to benefit are the members of the press with their special NYP plates (which, incidentially, both Connecticut and New Jersey issue). Again, there's some justification for this, having to do with access to crime scenes and other locations requiring on-the-spot news coverage. But don't try to tell me that there isn't a significant amount of abuse.
Actually, I've never seen a CT press license plate, but I have seen NJ ones...
[Actually, I've never seen a CT press license plate, but I have seen NJ ones...]
I saw a vehicle with Connecticut "NYP" plates parked in a press-only zone near Penn Station a few months ago.
Yes and what about all those film crews getting special permits for all of their trucks.
[Yes and what about all those film crews getting special permits for all of their trucks.]
Not quite the same issue. Commercial vehicles travel into Manhattan because in most cases there's no alternative. On the other hand, city administrators and other big shots with on-street parking permits generally could use mass transit like the rest of us, but instead choose to drive.
The cash-strapped City of Baltimore is installing 4-way stop signs in lieu of traffic lights (just like Philadelphia!) and speed bumps in neighborhoods on main streets. Oh Joy!!
Interestingly enough, Baltimore is held out as an example of a successful city by those who promote sports as an investment, thanks to Camden Yards. Needless to say, stadium opponents now take pains to paint Baltimore as a basketcase. Perhaps there is some exaggeration here.
The Maryland Stadium Authority (State Agency) builds sport "palaces" for rich owners, which is then paid for by lottery (state again).
The city can't really pay for anything new, school improvments are the state again, plus bond issues. Streets don't get paved (my residential street was last repaved in the 1950's!), trash is twice a week, soon to be once, middle class is fleeing to Harford and Carroll counties, and the areas around the city-county line are talking succession. The city-owned City Life Museums were closed and the collections dispersed because the city failed to fiscally support it.
(Baltimore's problems). Oh well, Brooklyn came back, so maybe there is hope for Baltimore and Philly. I know a self-employed guy who grew up in the Philadelphia area, and is upset because housing prices have gone up so much in our part of Brooklyn. I pointed out that areas of Philly which do have, or could have, comparable amenities, are cheap -- really cheap. He seemed to like the idea.
Like we've said before here, an anectdote beats data every time. I've read a couple of articles blaming the Littleton Tradgedy on the physical layout of the suburbs and the resulting alienation of teens. Even from the point of view of an urban fan, let's just say that's a bit of an overstatement, although having lived in the 'burbs for six years of my childhood I did decide that Brooklyn would be a better environment for my kids. The density is high enough so you can hang out with kids from your own street on your own stoop, instead of having to go the parking lot of the 7-11. Who knows? If exaggeration leads to hysteria, people might start fleeing from the suburbs.
[(Baltimore's problems). Oh well, Brooklyn came back, so maybe there is hope for Baltimore and Philly. I know a self-employed guy who grew up in the Philadelphia area, and is upset because housing prices have gone up so much in our part of Brooklyn. I pointed out that areas of Philly which do have, or could have, comparable amenities, are cheap -- really cheap. He seemed to like the idea.]
Granted, I'm not familiar with all of the city, but what I've seen of Baltimore doesn't look too terrible. It sounds to me as if many of the cited problems are attributable to bad government rather than a weak economy (shades of Nassau County!) Baltimore surely doesn't have Brooklyn- or Bronx-style double digit unemployment rates. Having a fundamentally sound economy as does Baltimore makes it easier to get the city back in shape if the political will is found.
(Baltimore doesn't have Brooklyn's unemployment rates).
Actually, I think Baltimore is much worse off, primarily because unlike Brooklyn and the Bronx it doesn't have a dynamic center like Manhattan next to it. I had to compile some data on Baltimore (& Cleveland) to show how new stadiums downtown are good. Let's just say the data was not used. Like these boroughs, there is both high unemployment and lots of people not bothering to look for a job. Unlike these boroughs, employment and population are sliding down.
This gets back to a debate I have in the office all the time: why have people fled the cities for the suburbs. One view is that virtually everyone wants the suburban lifestyle -- detached house, cars, lawns, shopping with lots of parking, less noise and traffic -- and the older cities just can't compete.
My view is that it all comes down to the social and fiscal burden of the poor. You live where the poor are, you must pay higher taxes and accept inferior services due to the fact that they have less to put in and greater needs. And, their social problems are in closer view. Most Americans have turned their backs on the poor and the places they live. I believe that if, as in Paris, the housing projects were built and the poor located in the suburbs, people would want to live in cities instead.
When people talk about the suburbs being "urbanized" they aren't talking about people living in rowhouses and apartment buildings and riding mass transit. They are talking about an increase in the number of poor people, especially Blacks and Hispanics. That could be a hidden factor in Nassaus problems -- as the housing ages and is passed down, they now have a burden they didn't have before and (unlike New Yorkers) are not willing to accept. Heck, I just read about a white, suburban couple from New Jersey who got screwed up and became heroin addicts. Guess where they live now? Guess who is supporting them?
[re economic comparison of Baltimore and NYC's outer boroughs]
By the way, to follow up on a recent thread discussed here, Sea-Land and Maersk lines have decided to stay in NY/NJ rather than build a new "superport" in Baltimore. They apparently decided that New Jersey's incentive package was too good an offer to pass up. While Maryland's offer was far greater in dollar terms, the cost of moving the port operations presumably gave New Jersey's offer an effective edge.
Now the big (and presumably unanswerable) question: were Sea-Land and Maersk really serious about moving, or was this a case of corporate blackmail?
(Was it corporate blackmail?) Even if it wasn't, NJ lost. The real question is, how many new businesses will not grow in NJ because of the higher taxes or diminished services needed to fund the subsidy? You know all those "jobs created" and "jobs retained" figures? The never include the cost! They act as if the cost is zero!
[When people talk about the suburbs being "urbanized" they aren't talking about people living in rowhouses and apartment buildings and riding mass transit. They are talking about an increase in the number of poor people, especially Blacks and Hispanics. That could be a hidden factor in Nassaus problems -- as the housing ages and is passed down, they now have a burden they didn't have before and (unlike New Yorkers) are not willing to accept.]
Dunno. As far as I know, there hasn't been a significant increase in the percentage of poor and/or minority residents in Nassau. Suffolk probably has seen much greater percentage increases in both categories yet remains in reasonably sound financial shape. I'd say that Nassau's woes are mainly attributable to good old-fashioned crooked politicians.
[Heck, I just read about a white, suburban couple from New Jersey who got screwed up and became heroin addicts. Guess where they live now? Guess who is supporting them?]
Pound Ridge? Sands Point? Bernardsville? New Canaan? Muttonville? Alpine? Could you give me a hint :-)
(Where does the New Jersey drug addict now live). NEW YORK CITY! AND ON WELFARE!
[(Where does the New Jersey drug addict now live). NEW YORK CITY! AND ON WELFARE!]
I found that article in the _Slimes_. It was interesting, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the details are a bit fuzzy. Did the couple move to New York because of the availability of welfare? That was never quite addressed. But I did get a minor chuckle out of the incident where the husband was beaten by drug dealers, staggered into the nearest subway station for help, and promptly got busted for sitting on the steps. Looks like the skells will be using the "I just was assaulted" excuse from now on :-)
Speedbumps and 4-way stops are the latest rage in what the buzzword types call "traffic calming". Speedbumps are what everyone wants, but of course, not on their end of the block or in front of their house. Both of these measures are in response to the wild uncontrolled situations which we've permitted to happen on our streets. Everyone is in a hurry and everyone speeds (so the myth goes) so we need to find ways to slow them down short of ticketing, enforcement, etc.
Here in Phila, driving is becoming more and more of a risk. About one-third of drivers don't have insurance (even though state law says different). Many vehicles are unregistered and uninspected. A large number (perhaps 20%) of drivers aren't even licensed. Police do little about this. Traffic regulations are useless since tickets are hard to come by, and how does the illegal operator become affected by tickets? Red-light running is a regular way of life. 4-way stops, which are purported to be better than signals since they're "always red", are a joke.
Of course, the political reaction to this is to install more devices that people will ignore. When our current (ex-NYC) police commissioner began to crack down on illegal drivers and confiscate cars, he was booed as an enemy of the poor, since the poor couldn't afford anything more than cheap cars, and insurance, registration, inspection, even licensing, were luxuries. SEPTA is no good to those without cars since it's so undependable and also expensive (that's what they say).
As one who grew up in a family without a car (and may be a little better for it, since I can easily travel on public transit without any difficulty), I fail to see the absolute need for a car, especially in an urban environment. Yes, it's getting tougher to live without one (and I do own one now), but that's life in the big city. It certainly doesn't qualify in my book as a necessity, especially at the expense of something even more critical to life.
Until some sense comes of things in this regard, look for more lunacy like speed bumps and 4-way stops.
Ah, two highways I remember well. We got caught in a major traffic jam on the GSP once, on May 14, 1967 (Mother's Day, as a matter of fact) while on our way back to Paterson from Trenton. I don't recall what caused the backup.
I also remember when the parallel leg of the turnpike through the Meadowlands was built.
Also, speaking of turnpikes, US 36 between Denver and Boulder was originally built with private funding and was a toll highway. It is still known to this day as the Boulder Turnpike, even though the toll barriers came down just as soon as the bonds were retired in 1967.
[I remember when the barriers came down. Governor O'Neill felt that since the bonds had been retired, it was time to eliminate the tolls. Ditto for the Merritt Parkway. I was no longer living in Connecticut then; I read about it in the paper.]
Safety concerns were what finally prompted Connecticut to eliminate tolls. Several people died at the Stratford tolls on the Turnpike in 1982 or 83, when a sleepy truck driver plowed into a line of cars waiting to pay their tolls. With a year, the tolls were gone from the Turnpie and the Merrit/W.Cross Parkways soon followed. The last tolls in the state were on a couple of Connecticut River bridges near Hartford, which hung on for a couple of years longer.
We were rear-ended at the West Haven barrier on July 30, 1967. Some young lady was driving a VW Beetle and had left her emergency brake on. Her brakes overheated and she couldn't stop.
She got a ticket. The gas gauge on our car never worked properly again after that.
They took the toll booths down several years ago on the Western Kentucky and Blue Ridge Parkways, which run diagonally east-west across the state. But the speed bump ridges to tell drivers to slow down for the booths still remain on the road, which makes driving interesting if you're not paying close attention.
Speed bumps in NYC would just give cab drivers a chance to see if they could get their vehicles airborne.
Not to mention more business for auto repair shops. Good for the economy.
Yes, that's what I meant ... 25 cents every couple of miles ...
BTW, Eye have a number of the tokens they sold ... people will put almost anything in our farebox (want some girly coins). How about a trade for out-of-town dip/swipe cards ?
(If you want to buy/trade please send me a off-site e-mail)
Mr t__:^)
Toll highways are generally financed by selling bonds to private investors. Then THEY are paid back from the toll revenues. This plan works well, except that the "authorities" which are established to run the whole process tend to find some way of preserving their existence (and that of the tolls) after the bonds are paid off. In the case of Connecticut, which did eliminate its tolls, there was no "Authority" - the state DOT ran the toll road itself. Perhaps other states should try that; if the state laws (or state constitutions) don't allow it, amend them.
Paying back money to the federal government is a dubious suggestion; the money comes from the population in the form of taxes to begin with, so making the state repay the federal money from tolls amounts to paying for the road twice. Federal highway aid today generally goes only to toll-free roads.
Do you know Mark Gibson?
-Hank :)
Can You really blame Chicagoans for not wanting to pay for more highways down State? Or to pay for projects to address issues like air pollution? To pay disaster relief the next time some town down the Mississippi gets flooded when the flooding is linked to suburban sprawl up river?
Don't get me wrong, like most Americans I don't think much of Al Gore. But unless people like you and me speak up with our opposing views and try help the other guy see our points of view, there will be no good solutions to either of our problems.
Same old. Same old.
Remember when Clinton was campaigning in 1992 he was going to "rebuild the nation's infrastructure", including high speed trains and transit? He got really bored with that. The transit budget has been flat while the general federal transportation budget has about doubled in current dollars. In constant dollars, transit has steadily fallen.
Take it with a grain of salt. Transit and Amtrak funding is really dependent on who in Congress wants to get what for his/her home district.
NY suffered its biggest blow for transit when D'Amato was defeated, and now we're losing Moynahan. Do you know what a Pyrrhic victory is?
[NY suffered its biggest blow for transit when D'Amato was defeated, and now we're losing Moynahan. Do you know what a Pyrrhic victory is?]
I'd say if transit funding is left up to Chuck Schummer and, dare I say Ms. Rodham, good luck!
At least you know what you had with Senator Pothole. And although I don't believe in his politics, you'll have to search far and wide to get another Daniel Patrick Moynahan. He is a gentlemen and can look at an issue from all sides.
- Jim K.
Chicago
I dare say that if the 1st Lady does become the junior senator from NY while Chuckie ascends to the senior senator position. Mass transit will be in trouble. I fear, based on her past track record she'll be stealing the rails while telling us Mag-Lev subways are coming.
Hey, I understand that it's a game of politics, and I understand that all congress is interested in is bringing something home to the home district. But New York has politicians too, why don't they bring something home??? The answer, I believe, can be found in my long standing theory that Democrats in New York are sheep and the Democratic politicians know this and thus they walk all over their constiuants and their constituants eat it up and ask for more. After all, what are they going to do, vote Republican???
Use the "View Source" command on your browser to see how it is done. Unless you are using AOL, you will find it on the "View" menu.
Basically, you use the command <a href="url"> to begin the link (the actual url (web address) goes between the quotes instead of "url"), then the text you want to appear as the link for the person to click on, then end the link with </a>. The text for the link may or may not be the same as the url itself.
What you posted does not show up as a link, but it can be used by copying it to the "clipboard" and then pasting it into the destination window of a browser.
Hey, all. Check out www.bostonphoenix.com for an interesting article on a new prototype train running on Boston's Green Line. The phoenix is a lifestyle/nightlife magazine, but the article is still pretty good.
I couldn't find the on-line piece (but I'll grab the paper tonight). But if you're talking about the Type-8 trolley, it's not a prototype. The first two production cars, #3802 & #3803 are in passenger operation on a limited basis. There will be 100 in total.
Here's the URL for the MBTA green line article.
The article was buried pretty deep in the magazine.
http://www.bostonphoenix.com/archive/features/99/05/06/URBAN_EYE.html
Where are the yellow globes at the entrances to the subway stations? All over the city you see the Green and Red. Which to my memory green is open and red means exit only. Yellow I thought was you can enter, but you could not buy a token. Now maybe with metrocards you don't need those yellow globes anymore? Anyone know where they are?
No, no, no! Green means open (for entry) at all times; red meens not open for entry at all times - there may be open entry at some times (generally given on a sign at the enterance), or not at all. I don't beleive yellow was ever used in this system, though I'm not sure when the system was put into effect.
I thought I remember seeing them on Northen Blvd. Near the 59st Bridge.
wake up, they got rid of the yellow globes ten years ago
What did a yellow globe mean when they did exist?
Also, is there any difference in meaning between a Green globe and a globe which is green on top and white on the bottom?
>Is there any difference in meaning between a Green globe and a globe which is green on top and white on the
bottom?
no
I guess that is why I have not seen them in a while. :)
The yellow globe meant that the entrance was open, but you needed to have a token on you to get in; there was either no token booth or it wasn't a 24-hour booth.
I think that now (about ten years ago or so), when the booth is closed, the corresponding entrance is also closed (thus replacing the yellow globes with red ones). This was probably done for enhanced security and to cut down on turnstile-jumpers.
But now, I've seen a few unmanned Metrocard-only entrances (modern iron-maiden turnstiles), so those types of entrances may be coming back.
The yellow globes were replaced due to the confusion. Nobody knew what they meant. Not even the MTA.
From the last multi-lingual subway map:
A green globe means the entrance is always open and a red globe means there is some restriction such as open certain hours or MetroCard erquired for entrance during certain times, or exit only. A Red globe has the information near the back of the stairway and needs to be read!
When they first started putting up those colored globes (ca. 1980 ?), green meant open for entry (with a manned booth) at all times (as it does today), yellow meant open with a manned booth during certain hours only, and red meant not open with a manned booth at any time (exit only or "iron maiden" entrance only). But within a month or two, the system was revised. Yellow globes were eliminated and existing ones gradually replaced with red. Red now means simply "not green" i.e. not an entrance with a 24-hour change booth. Did the MTA really think the three-color system was too complicated for average riders?
I think those globes predate the MTA.
-Hank
I spotted ayellow globe on Friday at the south end of Parsons/Archer/Jamaica Ctr. This is a part time personed entrance with 24 hr accessability provided you have a MetroCard.
More train spotting from my boss' office resulted in seeing one set of 68a's on the N line at Queensboro Plaza. Signs were setup with black N on yellow circle. End Signs (except for Head/Tail End) all had B signs.
Still juggeling that equipment??
I've been noticing for some time now some of the End Of Train (EOT) Markers (the Red Lights) on the Slant 40's are out (one or both).
Who checks the lights? I know Train Operators are not Pilots, they don't walk around the train before taking charge. But when is this imprortant saftey device checked??
In the old days I guess Tower Operators could notice them but with more and more towers becomeing metal boxes without windows who knows.
It should be checked by the crew putting the train into service from a layover in the yard. However, if the train stays in continuous for several days, then it's possible no one would see it. During it's periodical inspection, the car inspector will most assuredly find it.
There are two tail lights. So one being out is not that critical. RTO has a rule requiring the car body lights to remain on at night and in tunnels. This is for added visibility by others.
ok, today I saw a V train, it was a V in a blue cirle like the A train. It was a Manhattan bound D R68 at DeKalb Ave at about 8:35-8:40. It was car #2501 and it was the third from the front. Anyone know more about this? On the FAQ page, it says - "V" Second Ave or 63d St
laterz
blackdevl
Sounds like a Motorman, or a Conductor being cute.
As a gag, whenever I work the A, I roll up JFK Express airplane signs between the 4th and 5th cars. It's fun to hang up the old "fallen flag" on the Far Rock run.
Why not? We stop at JFK.
Did the R-44s ever run on the JFK Express? I know the R-46s did.
Nope - The "Train To The Plane" was R46; mostly in the 1200 series (now the 6200 series).
About that "V" sign - that implies 8th Avenue service. I thought the "V" was Orange, as I have seen numerous times before.
Does that roll include the Orange "A" and the Grey "K"?
Wayne
[Nope - The "Train To The Plane" was R46; mostly in the 1200 series (now the 6200 series).]
Actually, R-44s ran on the JFK Express for the last couple of years or so that the service ran, replacing the R-46s.
David
That was the middle of 1990 or so; the former JFK express R46s wound up, in of all places, Staten Island, filling in for our R44s which were being poorly rebuilt by the TA.
-Hank
Probably just a defective end sign. Doesn't 2501 have a link bar and is mated to 2500-01-03-2502? If it is, that car willnever be on the lead again. The sign that counts is the one on the head end of the train.
it wasnt a end sign it was a dest. sign on the side
laterz
blackdevl
You may have only gotten a fleeting look at an upside-down 'A' side destination sign, not a blue 'V'.
Yep. That's where the Yellow Diamond 'M' is coming from. Saw it on an entire train of R40/42 at Lawrence St. on Friday.
-Hank
That's probably an upside-down "W"
Wayne
Don't the front end roller curtains on R-40 and later cars operate horizontally instead of vertically? If that's the case, then the curtains must have been installed upside down.
Yes they do. Our poster was talking about a side sign, which can appear inverted if not set right.
Wayne
Im back in the city now. I notice that the 3 line outside my house do have the full cab covered but not on all trains!! A couple of trains passed by with the railfan window open. I still have a chance.......
In the NY Daily News Friday May 7, page 34, is an article to boost subway and bus service with shorter waits, less crowding around town.
After the good people of SubTalk read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Sounds like a start at least, but if trains can't be added during rush hour the overcrowding problem still
exists. We still need the Second Avenue and other new
lines.
$16M Plan to Boost Subway, Bus
Service
They should use some of the money on the IRT, at least, to keep as many of the Redbirds going as long as possible after the first of the R-142s arrive, instead of retiring them right away.
That way, the number of available cars would be increased, especially for the 4, 5 and 6. As more R-142s and R-142As show up, then they can start retiring the R-26s, R-28s and some of the rustier R-33s/36s.
They do need to build Second Ave., though.
What to do with $16 million?
I won't be greedy, but here goes: Start by restoring some of the museum cars; the Abs, D-types and R9s could then be used on the weekends in the summer to promote the "old time" atmosphere of Coney Island or maybe the Rockaways. Bring back the Nostalgia Special, but this time do some real advertising!
I know this only comes from a railfan, but these historic cars could be restored for so little but the result would be much more positive publicity plus an added tourist attraction. (why not? other cities now promote fake trolley lines such as buses disguised as such, while other cities import antiques from other cities etc. and construct new trackage to run them!) With the rennaisance of the city and the transit system, why not?
Anybody out there second this?
"Gimme dem old time subway cars, there good enough 4 me!"
Mike H
I'm not sure if the old-timers are up to the rigors of revenue service, as beautiful as their current restorations may be (especially the D-types). Another alternative, albeit more expensive, may be to build replicas of some of these classic trains (a welcome one would be A/C'd replicas of the R-10), although I doubt if they'd do this.
Wayne
(Modern replicas of the old trains with AC). If you look at what the auto industry is turning out, anything is possible. The New Beetle and that Chrysler car which looks like the 1930s are examples.
Old Beetle=cute
New Beetle=UGLY!!!!!!
'nuff said.
Hi from Binghamton Univ.
Some of you may recall me suggesting that the TA Museum might get permission to static display or run some of their equip. elsewhere when the Brooklyn store closes for a while.
BUT I don't think surplus from fares should go to what is being said here (running old equip, or repros).
This is a golden opportunity for the City/State/MTA to get folks out of their cars ... so spend it on more new trains, buses & capital projects to add capacity/extend scope of service.
BTW I do like the idea of more fan trips with old equip.
The city could work with the Museum/TA to make some of them part of a tourist thing, e.g. subway series via Lo-Vs ... Manhattan to Rockaways via the type Ds. Why not use some of the old bus fleet for this too. Part of the cost of the trip would go back to maint. of the train/bus ... but don't use the fare surplus for this.
Mr t__:^)
An A/C replica of the R-10s would be nice, with just a little soundproofing thrown in for good measure. I would only hope that such a replica would be as fast as the original, and not another R-68. And, of course, they should run on the A.
P. S. I think that if you were to take a poll among conductors, they would probably want door controls inside the cab. I gather not too many conductors cared for the trigger boxes.
Nope. Again, we're thinking too much like fans, and not enough like daily commuters. If ridership is up 50%, but your service level is the same, people will scream 'we want more service!' While they don't care WHAT it looks like, they DO care that it is clean inside, they can find a seat, it's heated/air-conditioned, and most importantly, will get them from A to B in the fastest and most efficient way possible, without any undue delay. I don't car HOW much work you do on those older cars, you just can't reach this critera with them on a daily basis.
-Hank
As far as the age of the trains go, I know the Redbirds are pushing their limits, but in order to increase the number of fleet cars, I would use the $16 million to keep them in working condition for use in rush hour service until enough additional funds come along to replace the fleet entirely. The R-142s and R-142A's would become the main 24/7 cars, while the older trains could be kept to supplement service during the peak usage hours.
If you don't have enough trains right now to handle crowding, espcially on the Lex, it's silly to scrap the `birds if you can keep them workable for at least part-time duty.
(Keep the 'birds for rush hour). I get the feeling that after the R142s, the TA will have enough cars for the A division, but will be short on the B division.
Hi from Binghamton Univ.
[The plan primarily adds bus and subway trips during off-peak hours
— when, officials say, ridership has grown the most, thanks to new,
unlimited-use transit passes, free bus-to-subway transfers and a
bustling economy.]
[Officials have said adding service is difficult at rush hour, when
some key lines are already at capacity.]
Why aren't they talking about construction ? This doesn't seem to be the right way to go.
Next thing you know they'll have an official policy to discourage folks from riding at rush-hour times because there is any more room for them.
Mr t__:^)
What they should do is fix up the current deficiencies in the system like rennovating Bergen St. lower level to prevent the disaster that happened a short time ago when they had to provide shuttle bus service for people to get to Jay St. to get the train to Manhattan, and later on when they had to run that silly G shuttle train when the G line was broken up into two sections.
Disaster: almost anything can go on fire.
This has been discussed at length here and on nyc.transit. They COULD have kept both servies running, but too many people want the panacea (trying out my new vocab) of a one-seat ride. In an emergency, the lower level of the Bergen St. station can be used by passengers just fine, TYVM.
-Hank
Saw an adv. for fan trip from NYC, May 1st, to The Danbury Railway Museum. Photo shows 2 diesels, x-NYC (steamliner) & x-NH (Switcher).
Anybody know anything about this place ????
(May Trains "99 Guide ..." doesn't list)
Mr t__:^)
They have a web site where you can get more information. Don't have the URL...sorry!
Try this: Danbury Railway Museum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
MetroNorth is running a two stop special to the Museum as well, includes adminssion too.
Ano-3-mouse, Have added a bookmark to that site, thanks !
The Museum is home to some great equipment including an operating RS1 painted up in New Haven Colors, A New York Central E8 painted up in New York Central lighting stripes, a couple of RDCs, several coaches, a couple of FPAs, a crane car, cabooses and quite a bit more.
In addition, the Danbury terminus of CDOT/MNCR is adjacent to the museum. So on any given weekend, there may be idling FL9s waiting for Monday morning rush - and the flash of a camera.
The museum building adjacent to the grounds sits in the fomer Danbury station. (MNCR/CDOT has opted for a new station structure a few hundred feet down the track.) The museum has a ton of books and some videos focused mostly on Northeastern railroads. But information on others railroads and railroading in general is also available.
There are also a few exhibits explaining the history of the railroad and the area in the museum.
The museum also has a number of current MNCR/CDOT working locomotive engineers and other railroad personnel on the board and museum staff. The folks here are very informed and tend to know quite a bit about commuter operations on all branches of MNCR/CDOT.
The museum is also very easy to find.
Choice #1 - take the train from Grand Central to Danbury. That's the easiest way to get to the museum.
If you'd rather drive - the museum is about a mile off of exit #5 on I-84 in Danbury. Turn South on Main street - cross the railroad tracks and go to your second light - following the signs to the train - make a left and the museum is just beyond the second light to the right and across the street from the Dunkin Doughnuts.
Check out the museum web site for hours of operation.
I don't have it in front of me but it should be easy to find through Yahoo or any other search engine.
Dave, Thanks for the detailed reply !
The RS1 & E8 are the ones in the adv photos & they look in great shape. I'll have to get in touch with them so I have their opns schedule.
Mr t__:^)
We've discussed here on SubTalk how it's difficult to read the bulkhead route signs on the R-32s and R38s, especially compared to the pre-overhaul roll signs.
Well, Boston is now taking a parallel step backwards. Our Green Line Type 7 and Boeing LRVs have bulkhead roll signs, with white letters on a black background. They are very readable, and you can tell which route the trolley is on from quite a distance.
The first Type 8s have new electronic displays, similar to the luminators on the R44s and R46s, but the font is smaller. Yesterday, I saw new Breda Type 8 #3802 leading a two-car train with modified Type 7 #3682 as the trailer; the Type 7's modification includes the new electronic sign. It was impossible to read the "D/Riverside" designation from more than 100 feet away. The two main problems are lack of contrast between the black "letters" and yellow background and the font size.
By contrast, the similar Breda cars in San Francisco have roll signs that are very easy to read, and they are controlled automatically by the operator. It's fun to watch them roll back-and-forth at terminals, as they do a "Cat Chow" dance before settling on the selected route.
Color-coded Roll Signs Rule.
Denver's buses have electronic signs whose font is similar to the R-44/46 signs, but the background is dark while the characters themselves are green. They're pretty legible for the most part.
The LRVs have roller curtains featuring white lettering on a black background and are very easy to decipher. Right now, the only time you have to worry about a destination sign is if you're headed towards 30th Ave., in which case you don't want to board a train marked "18th Street". Currently, there is only one line in operation, and an extension is slated to open in July of next year, so colors and letters are not an issue. Our new governor is very pro-light rail, and he wants to have a 19-mile line built along I-25 down to Douglas County. In addition, there is a spur line through the Platte River valley on the drawing boards which would eventually be extended out to the airport. We'll have to wait and see what sort of marking system is implemented. Colors might be the most logical way to go.
Colors are great - so long as you're not colorblind!
Trust me - color coded lines would be a disaster for me.
Todd,
I totally agree. Technology simply for the sake of technology is not always the best way to go. The flip-dot signs installed on the R-32/38 are definite failures. They were placed in a very hostile environment (foward of the HVAC evaporator). They are too small and very labor intessive to maintain. I, for one would like to see the return tot he old, colored route curtain. I wouldn't mind seeing marker lights return either.
That would be very nice to restore the color-coded roll signs to the bulkheads of the R32s (the R38s are Not A Problem - the letter is bigger, there are more dots and they are brighter).
However, since there is now a dropdown ceiling at the car ends of the R32s, which houses the A/C units, there isn't any access to the place where the old roll mechanism once was!
So much for progress...
Wayne
Steve, has there been any talk as to reverting o the old roll sign system. And what about a guesstimate as to the cost of reverting back top a single letter roll sign?
There's been no talk about returning tot he old roll signs. Since the area where the sign is no longer has easy access, the cranking of the sign would need to be done remotely, requiring different technology and equipment. the cost would likely be prohibitive.
Right, because all the roof mounted air conditioning equipment is where the end sign hatch would be. It was MAJOR surgery to change the end sign on the original air conditioned R38's (4140 to 4149).
What about the R-11s? If you look at the one at the museum, there's no way to access the roller curtains that I can see.
If they can't return to bulkhead roller curtains on the R-32s, perhaps larger electronic signs could be installed. Anything would be an improvement.
Now that the WillyB is closed, I'm working on the E. Just a few hours ago, I had a guy who wanted Ave. N and asked me what happened when he saw me get out of the cab at WTC. Obviously, he wanted the F train, but didn't see the bottom line of the end sign. In other words, my E, looked like an F to him.
Bill, I see your point, but a 10-car train of R-32s (assuming you had an R-32) has 20 sets of mylar side signs that are very readable, and the odds are that your Conductor was making announcements and that they were understandable.
David
[Now that the WillyB is closed, I'm working on the E. Just a few hours ago, I had a guy who wanted Ave. N and asked me what happened when he saw me get out of the cab at WTC. Obviously, he wanted the F train, but didn't see the bottom line of the end sign. In other words, my E, looked like an F to him.]
I did show him the side signs which were proper. I have noticed that people do not pay much attention to the side signs. They look at the front sign and that's all that matters. The side signs is just decoration! Case in point: when I worked the M. I always make it a point to check the signs in my car. How many times people didn't get off at Bway Myrtle during shuttle time and wind up at Central Ave. again. Or even ask me as I'm on the Met end ready to leave Bway Myrtle: "Which way is this train going?" Well, DUH, do you want me to run the train backwards! With proper signs and a conductor so loud I can hear him thru my closed cab door! It's human nature that most passengers THINK they know where they are going and the signs & announcements don't apply to them. Same thing with local service cut off on the Jamaica bound Queens IND on midnites & weekends. Announcements are made by the crew & the towermen/dispatchers advising people to stay on to the following express stop and double back, and still the passengers don't get it right, have to be told personally by a crew member, hold the doors, or simply let the train go by for no reason. Yes, some crew members do make lousy announcements, but even for the ones who do, many passengers still can't get it right. Too, many passengers are not too proficient of the English language which causes much of the problems.
this might be true with people who do not understand english well but PLENTY of english as a primary language riders don't get the message either verbally or orally...i guess you're right those side signs make nice decorations!!!
this might be true with people who do not understand english well but PLENTY of english as a primary language riders don't get the message either verbally or right in front of their face on a side sign...i guess you're right those side signs make nice decorations!!!
When I work the E and am running with the "good cars", I make very loud and clear announcements at VanWyck or Fifth Av.
"Ladies and gentlemen. Please be absoulutely certain you are on the correct train. Although we are operating with equipment typically found on the F line, THIS IS AN E TRAIN TO THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ( PARSONS BLVD.) Please be sure you are on the right train. Thank you"
Of course two stops later some Moron will come up to me and say:"Why aren't we at 179"?
either we have incredibly stupid subway riders who can't read or understand annoucements(most are understandable)
ever have a passenger come up to you with headphones on and say they never heard the announcement? I LUV THIS CITY!!!
obviously reading is fundemental or Phonics are not on alot of peoples agenda.
Right on! When they dont understand English I try Spanish and they tell me "I understand English" or "You dont have to write, I can speak". I then repeat my information and they walk away furious about How stupid we are..oh well!
Right now I work 175 on the A four hours Tuesday to Friday and have to change A trains at 168 due to track work. Everyday RTO and myself clear the trains and then some people still go back aboard and are remove(by RTO) for a second or third time! I just tell them "Last Stop=-no passengers, across the platform for the train to 207" I usually witness RTO banging on the seats to rouse some skell-or many skells who then move onto the shuttle which is more skells then passengers. Oh yes, RTO has had to call the police to clear the train (I've witnessed it!) and after the cops leave-yes, you guessed it!
As I have said before-many new Yorkeers are sheep and as a shepherd (I am not one) can tell you= sheep are stupid! If you turn a dog belly up it will roll over. A sheep turned on tis belly will die in that position- they dont know to roll over.
I love this job- a dailty challenge to communicate with my customers.
Mostly, they're morons. But hey, we travel 'pros' make mistakes too. I once changed to the IRT at Atlantic Ave, and ran up the stairs wanting a Lexington train to Manhattan. Lo and behold, I bound up the stairs, and wind up at Franklin Ave.
-Hank
Hank you must have been in a hurry and jumped on the train you see.
That's exactly what I did. I didn't stop to even look at the signs, because I had been there so often, I thought I knew it. But I neglected to orient myself when I got to the platform, and paid for it with an extra 25 minutes.
-Hank
Remember the Mahattan side is on the same side of D and Q trains. Brooklyn side is on the same side as the B,M,N,R trans...... I got used to this from transferring to go to school......
I, for one, would rather buck technology and return to sign curtains instead of these electronic dot things. Maybe you can get more on a sign with the dots, but at least half of the time, the dots don't flip, the lighting is bad, the message is unintelligible, or the operator forgets to flip the sign.
Most of my beef is with buses, as here in Phila our rapid transit lines don't have sophisticated signs. One argument I heard against curtains comes from a bus driver. On the Flxible buses purchased by SEPTA in the early 70's, the driver could adjust the sign either with a button on the bulkhead above the windshield (the standard position) or by another on the dash. The dash button was an option to allow the driver to change a sign in a hurry if need be. Of course, many drivers flipped on the dash switch and got distracted, so the next thing the driver knew, the curtain was fully wrapped around one roller. There were many SEPTA Flx's with no sign showing for just this reason.
Of course, this couldn't happen with the dot sign, now could it (I did see one bus with the bulkhead cover loose, so that the sign couldn't be seen from the outside but could be viewed slightly from the inside of the bus...)?
Yes and the LARGER the type the better, you are correct about the SF MUNI roll signs EXCEPT that the operators(used to the Boeing junk whose signage is generally broken--often either blank white or competing signs on the same car)) are careless about displaying the correct signs. Also the lights for the signs seem to be prone to failure. The touted advantages for the electronics such as many more possible but rarely used destinations do not come close to making up for two signal defects. General illegibility AND the inability to display a large color field. The slants of much fame were the best when new you could tell from the far end of the platform what the train was.
Yes, the original signs on the slant R-40s were huge. Then again, those cars spent the first 8-9 years of their careers on the E and F lines and virtually nowhere else.
Believe it or not, I didn't notice the route sign on the slants when I saw them for the first time. It was at 34th St. and 6th Ave., and an F train pulled in. I was so used to looking above the storm door for the signs that I flat out didn't see the big magenta F until my mother pointed it out to me. DUH! My sister liked those cars so much she wanted to take that very train, even though we were waiting for a D. We took that F train one stop, to 42nd St. I doubt if my sister would remember that today. She has her hands full raising two kids. Call me a proud uncle.
BTW, the original signs on the R-42s were pretty big, too.
> BTW, the original signs on the R-42s were pretty big, too.
These big signs and the blue stripes made the R40M/R42 cars have a distinctive look that is sorely lacking... That plus the lack of pantograph gates on the cars as delivered. Ahh well. Progress. :)
Can someone check how long this transfer is valid? I have been told that it is good for no more than 12 minutes,or so. This would be much too little time to make the connection.
According to the *official bulletin* it is good for 48 minutes
I had a chance to ride the Yellow(Skokie Swift) last Monday afternoon from Dempster to Howard then Purple to Belmont and Red to Addison.
The Oakton shops have been completely rebuilt. I noticed one set of
approximately four 1-50 cars and a pair of the retired 2000 series which apparently have been painted in early 1900's colors, looks ugly. They were much more attractive in the original green/white colors. It
is like a mini-museum section a la Coney Island. At Howard Street, I
changed to the Purple Line express to Belmont. First, I hopped up to
the top of the pedestrian crossover to watch yard moves at Howard. I
still believe this is the best "subway spotting" location in North
America!
At Belmont, I hopped the Red Line back to Wrigley Field for 7:05 Cubs
game.
How fast did that Evanston Express go? Which cars are currently assigned there?
[How fast did that Evanston Express go? Which cars are currently assigned there?]
Question 1 - the Evanston trains top out at CAB55. Anything over that gives the motorman a cab signal warning.
Question 2 - Effective with the 2/20/99 pick the follow cars are assigned to Evanston: 2801-2854, 2857-2880, 2901-2912 & 3457-3458 (the odd couple). This is a total of 92 cars. The peak car requirements are as follows: 66 or eleven trains in the AM and 78 or 13 trains in the PM.
Jim K.
Chicago
[, I hopped up tothe top of the pedestrian crossover to watch yard moves at Howard. I still believe this is the best "subway spotting" location in North America! ]
I agree with you that it is a great place to watch trains; however, we refer to our rapid transit at the 'L'. Thank you.
Jim K.
Chicago
My bad!!! And to think I grew up right in the shadow of the Howard
Street yards.
I have been reading various articles and seeing news reports about the delays Bombardier is having in finishing the 600 or so cars scheduled to replace the Redbirds.
What is the deal? I thought some were supposed to have been in operation by March 1999.
Anyone have info? As well as the Redbirds run and trust me, I am nostalgic too, the A/C systems don't seem to have enough muster for another summer. What lines will get 'em? IRT?
Gimme the shiny new steel trains already!!
Word has it that the first set is expected May 21st, two weeks from today. There was a whole thread on this not too long ago. The set is to be tested on the 2 and 5 lines, but as with all new transit cars, it will be tested without passengers at first. Now will it be five cars (one set) or ten cars (two sets)? I heard ten cars will be delivered to show them off to the press. Is that so?
The contract calls for the first 5-car set to be delivered by May 21st. They could be delivered a day or so early but not much chance of anything significantly before that. One of the members of my motorcycle club is a consultant for Bombardier and he promised to give me some advanced notice... Hopefully, I'll be there to get some pictures.
The R-142s are coming in via the car floats, so SBK will be hauling them over 3rd and 4th Aves and then onto the B line at 36th Street yards.
I hear that the SAME day of the Coney Island Yard tour the 142s are expected to be delivered -- so we may be in for a BIG treat after all! However, I have also heard that delivery could be as late as Monday, May 24. We'll just have to keep our fingers crossed...
Doug aka BMTman
Wait by the car floats at the SBK. You'll really be in for a big suprise...
About when should I wait?
-Hank
I hope someone decides to post "spy" photos of the '142s for those of us living in "economic exile" outside the NYC metropolitan area...
This excerpt from an Associated Press news report today:
Work on the passenger ramps to the N-and-R trains at Times Square begins today - and the 82 (M) million dollar project is to take six months.
During the work, passengers will have trouble transfering to or from the N-and-R lines at 42nd Street. Passengers using the 1,2,3,7 and 9 trains will also have problems transfering to other lines.
Has anyone been through there to better describe what the "trouble" will be?
The ramps leading to the N and R platforms will be closed. Signs said to use the stairways at the extreme north ends of the platforms instead. I don't know what "trouble" they have in mind for the 1/2/3/9, probably just the fact that reaching the stairways to the N/R from there will now require walking a kind of zig-zag pattern.
I went through there today. When you come up from the IRT 41st street exit you come to a sign saying A/C/E/S take the first passagewat while you go straight for the N/R. That passageway is closed. you have to pretend you are going to the Shuttle and then go down the steps near the escalators to the street booth. They are removing asbestos. NYCT ahs plenty of station agents manning the passageways to assist you. They were busily installing more turnstilers at Booth R150 which will be open 24 hours while R151 is closed for renovation work. On the IRT plats, one staireay to the lower level si also closed.
Lets hope this construction really is done in six months...to make things easier on December 31, 1999. -Nick
SURE it'll be done
i've got a bridge to sell too!
SURE it'll be done
i've got a bridge to sell too!
hehehe thats funny, Anthony. But really, I can tell you right now that a LOT MORE than the normal crowd of 500,000 will go to Times Square for New Years Eve this year, myself included (probably). Mass transit is already guaranteed to be a headache, and if certain entrances are closed and we have to use detours, the headache will be aggravated. So, I REALLY hope that this is one project that can be completed successfully, and on time. Besides, what better way to ring-in 2000 then with a nicely renovated station thats right near the center of attention at midnight. -Nick
Will the reconstruction include any rehabilitation of the station itself (i.e., N/R platform, walls, etc.) or just ramp work?
Michael B.
The work will include:
Wall tile, Floor tile, wider stairs down to the 7 from the IRT 1/2/3/9, rebuilt platforms for all Lines (except IND and the 7 for this phase. The 7 will be the next contract and the IND after that.
Also planned is an atrium which will allow natural light into the station and relocated vendor space. The passageways will also be widened.
I had planned on keeping subtalk upated as significant development happens.The ramp to the BMT is an example of transit listening to the rider. Under original plans thwe ramps were to become stairs becauswe of non compliance with the ADA--too steep but now the ramp will be rebuilt to be ADA compliant. When the station is completed and I am including the IND, all platforms will be fully ADA compliant with elevators. I plan on making at least monthly visits to the station complex.
Well, the IND portion is already compliant. I'd assume they'll have ramps from the N/R to the shuttle mezzanine, and elevators from the N/R to the 7, and elvators from the 7 to the 1/2/3/9 (can't see how else they could do it) They'll also need an ADA entrance at Times Square. There's already a ramp from the Shuttle Mezzanine to the IRT mezzanine, and the connection to the IND passage, which would also require work.
-Hank
Has any thought been given to installing moving sidewalks from the Times Square stations over to Eighth Avenue? There seems to be more than enough room to put in a pair of them. All you have to do is to be stuck with luggage going from Grand Central to the Port Authority Bus Terminal to get an EWR bus to develop a deep hatred of the planners who spend money on unnecessary frills before taking care of basic human comforts. Even Newark Airport in the NYC area has moving sidewalks.
Of course a City that will not put bus lanes in the opposite directions on the one-way avenues that are so far apart probably isn't likely to consider such things.
It would be nice to see the sidewalks installed at 33rd Street, too, in the old passageway under what used to be Gimbel's--it's a really long walk from the subways on Sixth Avenue and Broadway over to Penn Station and if Penn is moved another block west, it will be even worse. (Or do TA managers have stock in taxi companies?)
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Will every line have to be `directly connectabile' under ADA? That is, will they have to have a connection to the 7 from both the N/R and the 1/3/4/9 platforms, or will it be OK under federal law to just connect one using elevators and/or ramps, and have people, say, on the BMT have to take a roundabout way via the IRT Seventh Ave. platform to get down to the Flushing Line. It would be inconvenient for some, but it would cut the cost and the construction time, especially if the MTA is trying to solve its own Y2K problem before the crowds arrive New Year's Eve.
The law says only 'reasonable accomodations. As long as it's made accessible, it's just fine, even if it means one must take 4 elevators to change trains.
-Hank
And I think that's just fine. As one who periodically has some difficulty walking (I've spent a fair part of my life on crutches or in a wheelchair, although I'm walking reasonably well, albeit slowly, at the moment) I don't expect everything to be 100% accessible or easy to get to. Everyone has their own "disabilities" (to use the PC term), some obvious, some not so obvious. Physical limitations, perhaps because they are the most obvious, have received the most attention in recent years, but I for one would rather see the money being spent on many of the ADA changes being spent on finding a cure for the cause rather than addressing the symptoms. (Basic considerations, such as 36" wide doorways and curb cuts, don't cost much if anything when done as part of a larger project, but major retrofits are largely a waste of money, as far as I am concerned.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually the work began 2 months ago.
its aq mess. it took about 10 minutes waiting in line to get a token, but once on the platform, no problems.
How can I obtain any pamphlets/brochures about the shutdown, if possible?
Try a station on a line that is near one end-F, J,Z,M etc. They have a drawing of the bridge with J-Z-M breaking it in two.
By the way, the reconstruction work, especially in Brooklyn, is really moving along.
On the DVARP website, there was a piece about obtaining dual mode locos for use on some truncated SEPTA RR lines(namely the R5). The article stated that not only does SEPTA have the most truncated commuter rail network, but is the only one which has bound itself to only overhead power.
These engines were suggested for use on new lines(like the Scuylkill Valley Metro) and on truncated ones(like the R8 to Newtown).
Why did SEPTA limit itself to overhead power and what's the deal with all the truncations of the 1980's?
(I swear Gerry Williams isn't paying me, but his book seems to answer
a TON of Philly questions. :)
I suppose, to sum things up, low ridership from the required switch
at Electric, Conrail running the diesel show (and Septa hating them,
or them hating Septa, can't recall) and all kinds of weird union
regulations on the diesels (mandatory FIREMEN, if memory serves me
correctly) just made Septa not care anymore. Anyone else?
(happy sidebar) the Cape May shore line does run diesels around Cape
May. (you can check their web site) I've definitely got to get down
there this summer for their weekend (fan)trips.
In reference to your plans to go to Cape May, it is my understanding that they will be opening the trackage all the way into Cape May on 12 June - an additional three miles of track, if I remember correctly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why wouls septa switch to diesel? No worth it, given that a) that's a BIG investment in new equipment, b)They can't run them undergrounmd into Suburban, etc, c)The kind of operation Septa runs works better as as electric and d)diesels are slow anyway. Possible system expansions? Maybe, but why not just electrify them? Cost savings? Even negliecting the costs of switching, I'm not sure diesels are any cheaper to keep than electrics.
But if SEPTA were to buy the new dual-mode diesel/catenary Genesis engine that GE says it's prepared to build, then it will be able to run trains directly into Philadelphia from places like Quakertown and Reading where there's no catenary. It would be like the way Metro-North runs diesel-hauled trains from places like Poughkeepsie and Danbury to New York because the engines can also operate off of third rail. The engines they use are also built by GE (the P-32DM Genesis) and there are still some 1950s EMD FL9 engines that have this same capabilty. In fact FL9s were used by the New Haven on its Boston-New York trains all the way, so there was no engine change at New Haven.
True, diesels are slower than electrics. But SEPTA's electric trains are already ridiculously slow. If they installed high-platforms at all or most of their stations they might be able to speed up the service. Certainly, new push-pull coaches would be required for the new services. But if you've seen the Silverliner equipment both inside and out, you'd be more than happy to hear it if SEPTA was going to purchase new commuter cars, which are long overdue. It's only going to get harder to squeeze out more life on the tired old 1960s fleets.
[It's only going to get harder to squeeze out more life on the tired old 1960s fleets.]
Regarding SEPTA's MU fleet. The bulk of the MU's in the fleet are Silverliner IV's. These units were delivered beginning with the single units in 1974 and the paired units followed in 1975-77. The oldest being twenty-five years old.
Imagine, these cars replaced MU's originally purchased by the PRR beginning in 1915 with the electrification of Chestnut Hill and Paoli. The Reading purchased their units beginning in 1931. The Reading MU's lasted until the l980's I think (the Blueliners which were rebuilt in 1964 at the Reading Shops).
So, I think it would be safe to say that SEPTA could expect the Silverliner IV fleet to be around a little while longer.
Jim K.
Chicago
The IV's are currently being upgraded and nice new interiors are being placed in them as part of the work. Since this is occurring at their 25th birthdays, I would imagine that we'll see them around for at least another 20 years. The II's and III's, well, that's another story - many of the III's are getting a facelift on the inside also, but the II's still look dreary.
With service increases planned in conjunction with highway work around the region (R5 - US 202 rebuilding now underway and PA 309 planned to start next year, R3 and R7 - I-95 work to begin next year), even with the new Bombardier coaches, the entire Silver fleet will likely be busy for at least the next 6-8 years.
The only gripe I have with the fleet is the lack of doors. The center doors should be installed on the IV's. Boarding and unloading at the three Center City stops is s-l-o-w because of this (and exacerbated by the thru nature of most lines, which means that crowds will be leaving and entering each train). Schedules now permit 3-4 minutes at each station in the peak. This is one major reason why Regional Rail is so slow.
First, let's address the truncations. On the PRR side, the only one is the cutback of Ivy Ridge service to Cynwyd. This is due to the condition of the Manayunk viaduct.
On the Reading side, the diesel lines went (Norristown to Pottstown, Lansdale to Bethlehem, Fox Chase to Newtown). The first may come back as the Schuylkill Valley Metro. The second is being kicked around as a possible diesel light rail route. The third is a major league political football. All of these lost service since ridership was plunging and of the three, only Newtown has promise as a commuter line given the large amount of development in that area of Bucks County. (Some may argue that the first, in the shadow of congested US 422, has merit, but I'm not so sure, especially since the bulk of commuting in that corridor is headed to the US 202 corridor, the Phila areas's version of the Silicon Valley).
As far as overhead wires, SEPTA inherited the electrified system from the predecessor railroads. Electric operation offers better performance and speed when compared to diesel. Diesel would necessitate expensive ventilation systems in the Center City tunnel.
Would dual-mode work? I think DVARP oversimplifies the issue a little. Is the ridership potential there? I would argue probably not, except for Newtown. SEPTA has studied electrification to Newtown again and again and is met with the opposition of Bryn Athyn and the wealthy Pitcairn family who runs the place. Options have been explored to tie the outer end to R3 with electrics as well as extending R8 and these have gone nowhere. The current service is provided by two bus routes using 25-passenger cutaway-type buses, and these seem sufficient. Do you still think any investment is needed?
I often take SEPTA to task in this group and I usually have good reason to do so. This time I think SEPTA is doing the best that politics will allow and I would prefer that scarce transit dollars not be spent on such loser lines. When the politicos decide that something is finally needed here, let them find the bucks to do it and then SEPTA should act. Dual-mode is only a smokescreen, and in my opinion, a very misinformed one on the part of DVARP. The great expense and infrastructure investment needed for the handful of potential riders just is not worthwhile as I see it.
What big infrastructure investment would be needed? Fueling platforms is all I can think of. That's the beauty of dual mode! Metro North and Amtrak seem to be able to handle them, why shouldn't Septa be taking a look??
That's DVARP's argument - why isn't Septa at least considering these things. The Philadelphia area is growing, like Chicago, Boston, NY, etc. But unlike those areas, Philadelphia regional rail is NOT expanding. A whole lot more people will commute on a train than will ride a bus to a train...
One other cutback on the PRR side: was it on Septa's watch that the R3 got cut back from West Chester, or Media?
You are correct - I always manage to forget the end of West Chester service, which happened under SEPTA's watch in 1986. While R3 technically went to WC, the service near the end (and after the start of Center City Tunnel operation) was mainly shuttle trains to/from Media. This was similar to operation under PRR/PC, which had all but a handful of peak hour trains requiring a change at Media.
I am considering the equipment purchase as an infrastructure item, and this will be substantial. Also, the equipment must be dual-mode to avoid any major investment in the CC Tunnel, which has no ventilation capability. Fueling platforms, etc will be needed, as you note. In the case of Newtown, the line last ran trains in 1983 and rail must be replaced or, in many cases, placed once again (a good deal of rail is gone, especially at some of the busy grade crossings). Stations on the Newtown line will also need work. I believe those on Quakertown and Pottstown could be used as are.
Yes, SEPTA could be looking at this technology, but I question whether it is worthwhile given the ridership projections. Even in the busy Newtown area, where there are still commuters around who used the diesel service when it operated, neither SEPTA nor any other group has shown that the ridership projections are there. As I noted, when 25-passenger buses on wide headways can do the job, as on Newtown, I, as a customer, have to wonder whether the investment would be worthwhile. Even with the construction on I-95 planned over the next 10-12 years, which is the main commuter roadway from the Newtown area to Center City (and, thus, the 'competition'), no one can develop ridership figures that indicate that if you built Newtown, they would come.
The problem I have with DVARP, which I admit is a good organization, is that it (like many other advocacy groups) tends to become blinded by emotion and does not allow objective thought. You can't convince cash-strapped agencies like SEPTA to build lines just because (a) they existed once, (b) they would be nice, (c) they MIGHT work, (d) your group wants more rail, or (e) all of the above. I applaud SEPTA's stance in this regard - for once, SEPTA is getting gutsy and learning that politics shouldn't dictate need when any of the analytical tools available can't show that the investment would be worth it.
Could SEPTA go dual mode here? Sure, with some cost. The summary of my point is that the need must be demonstrated objectively before SEPTA moves to do so. Given the political hot potato with lines like Newtown, with two adjoining counties having two opinions 180 degrees apart, it makes little sense to go too far.
Today I took my first trip on the subway for the summer.
Here's a summary:
L train: started at Livonia. Boarded Slant R40#4401.
This train was pretty quick through the curves between Wilson and Halsey and between Morgn and
Montrose. Nice ride though the 14St tunnel, however as we approched 1Av, the rain seemed to go slow even though
there were grren signals dead ahead. Couldnt see too much through the front window cause of the rain. Somebody
mentioned a straight run from Sutter to Atlantic? The TA
must betearing down a lot of buildings because that whats
in the middle of the two main tracks. Rode under Atlantic Av station this morning and found the western most track
gone and boards out there for safety reasons. Nice run to 6Av. Union Sq looks real nice as well. Sorry I did not
go to 8Av.
F line: After helping a man to get to Brooklyn, I nearly
missed the F. Boarded R46#6112 which was the last car.
Hot and muggy. Got off at Rockefeller Ctr. Went to Red
Caboose. Nice subway models in there. Left store.
Q line: Boarded SlantR40#4321 at Rock Ctr. Excellent run
between 34 and W.4Sts. Did Bway-Lafayette always had blu
tile? I remember it haing green tile? Manhattan Bridge
was cool. The N tracks look about done except for a part
on the Brooklyn side that was covered up with a cutrain.
Observed the numerous tracks at Dekalb. I wish there was
a safe way to take a tour down there. Could not get a
railfan view because a conductor was standing there. Got
to Atlantic at 3pm. Bad, Very BAD! Brought back HS
memories.
4 line: Im used to this line o it was nothing new. Was
in R62#1592.
3 line: Boarded train @ Utica, my old stop. Boarded
R62A#2067. Last car of the train. There was a railfan
window available. Some type of constuction seemed to be
going along this line. Got off.
The Slant R40's are real fast. Keep them till they die... Also see the Franklin Shuttle tracks are laid down already.....
The L line brings back a lot of memories for me. I'll have to find some time this fall and check it out; I haven't ridden on it to Brooklyn since June 6, 1970. As for the Manhattan-bound run through the 14th St. tunnel, trains would typically lose speed as they approached First Ave. I'm sure the slant R-40s can maintain a higher speed than the BMT standards used to on the upgrade.
Heck, I consider virtually every subway ride I take as a railfan trip.
I agree with you: keep the slant R-40s for as long as possible. They still have lots of get-up-and-go. Their railfan window is second to none.
For those of us who don't go to Manhattan or ride the subway every day it is a treat. Yesterday, comming back from Binghamton, there was a big problem on the George Wash Bridge, so I diverted to the Lincoln Tunnel. Comming around the "big turn" I gave a long look at the skyline & realy didn't mind at all my trip across town right thru the hart of it (it helped that traffic was light). Then I hit the wall called the LIE & wished I could have hitched a ride on the LIRR.
Mr t__:^)
You're absolutely right. Since I've never lived or worked in New York, I've always seen myself as a visitor or quasi-tourist, and so the subway has always been a treat for me. My sister, who did live and work in the city for 12 years, told me more than once that I'd be singing a different tune if I had to use it daily for commuting purposes, and I have to admit she may be right. I get my annual fix in October.
Ah yes, God Bless our humble Slant R40.
I'm glad your day went well and that you were slanted accordingly. Nothing beats that elongated railfan window. Nothing.
Here are some of my observations:
The "L" curve between Wilson (did you see those 28-color tiles?) and Halsey is relatively broad; "L" trains aren't afraid of doing 30 there. Not so between Morgan (earth tones) and Montrose (pastels).
That curve is 95 degrees, sharper than a right angle. Its radius, however is in the "medium" category - if I were driving, I wouldn't go above 25. I don't think there are Grade-Timers in there. There's also a weak S-curve just outside of Morgan where it swings out of Harrison Place to McKibbin St. I'm sure you noticed the dead-slow between Grand St. and Graham Ave. Two rear-enders happened in there and now it's GT after GT with Red+Lunar White and NO KEY BY! Plus an enforced 8MPH speed limit up to the wicked left hook.
I think there is a distinct possibility that NYCT will recycle some of the old Fulton/Pitkin elevated structure to use for a Northbound track between Sutter and A.A.
Broadway-Lafayette station always had BLUE tile but not the current dark shade it now has. The original tile band had a delicate Powder Blue center (matte finish) with a Wedgewood Blue border - a shade of very deep, intense Sky Blue. Same color as center of band at IND Elmhurst Avenue station on the "R". This was the only station in the system to have this color. West 4th Street has the Green tile. The IND color order is: Red, Yellow, Green, Blue, Purple. Each express station, going OUTBOUND, the band changes color. The local stops that follow share the color of the last express station. Exception: Broadway E-NY-Euclid-Grant goes Blue-Purple-Green AFTER a Red Group; the correct order would have been Purple-Blue-Green. Exception 2: N Blvd and 65th St have much lighter purples (mauve!) than their sister stations & Queens Pza. Exception 3: The entire "G" line from Hoyt to Court Square - three different Greens.
Check out the IND Color Tile Table in the "IND" section of Station-by-Station. We even got the new 207th Street tile band in there. And all the correct color descriptions.
Wayne
I rather keep it a surprise. After setting up a time Pelham Dave to join him on the 2, I will ride the whole A line from 207 to Far Rock. I want to see the new tile for myself.......
Just make sure you get an A train of R-38s...
No doubt.. That is my plan. I heard R-32's are unning on the line right now.......
I think there's a mix of R32, R38 and R44 on the "A" right now, otherwise all the R38s are on the beefed-up "C". I'll find out this Saturday what's out there. Some R32s have been running on the "A" for some time now (a few months at least). I like the R38s better - the interiors are nicer and the front-end signs are at least legible.
Wayne
Wayne: What about those 10 R-32's rebuilt by Buffalo Transit Systems.
The interior is virtually the same as the R-38's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I read that those 10 particular R-32s have an identity crisis. They spend virtually all their time coupled with R-38s and almost never run as a solid train.
As for the A line, the R-32s can stay as long as they want. They'll always be a sentimental favorite, even without the blue doors, bulkhead roller curtains, and green illuminated side destination signs.
And marker lights.
Ah yes, the beloved R32-GE; there are but eight of them in revenue service now, as the folks up at 207th Street have cannibalised #3934-3935 as a parts car; otherwise, YES, you are 100% correct. The first time I rode one, it was #3594 and I did double-take after double-take inside it; wondering aloud if I was not seeing things, checking and re-checking the car number, making sure it wasn't really #3994 (it is Not - I was on that one Apr 24 for a glorious CPW express run). They are identical to the R38 inside, right down to the least interior detail; however they lack A/C due to problems with their compressor cradles, which they haven't figured out how to fix yet.
Wayne
Due to an unexpected change of plans I got to take my first ride on Baltimore's Metro yesterday afternoon. The Metro is apparently a single line with 14 stations and runs from Owings Mills in the north to Johns Hopkins in the south. A complete trip apparently takes only 29 minutes. I got to ride from Owings Mills to Lexington Market which took 23 minutes and covered 10 of the stops. All cars seem to be numbered in the 100 series, (Does this indicate a fleet of 100 cars or less?). The cars seem to be married pairs. My train south was two pair or four cars. The trip back five hours later was a six car train (three pairs). Door chimes warn of door operation and announcements of each station are made legibly before each station. All of the stations I saw were center platform. It appeared as if the entire train was operated by one person who acted as motorman and conductor. I was shocked to see that the motorman's cab was in the left front corner of the first car. My forty year ago memories of New York have the cab in the right front corner of the car. This left front position is ideal if all stops are at center platforms and the motorman is to operate the doors. I rode car #173 south and car #171 north. The cars appeared to be stainless steel, clean and grafiti free. Ride was smooth and acceleration was rapid. The ride seemed much more comfortable than those I remember in New York but my memories of NY are from many years ago and things have more than likely changed. It was my first ride on any form of rapid transit in more years than I care to remember. The fare was $1.35 or $2.70 round trip. There is apparently a $3.00 all-day unlimited trip ticket available. It was fun riding rapid transit again and renewed my interest in the hobby, and yes, the Orioles won too!
Karl: Glad to hear you got out on the rails. The Baltimore fleets consists of car nos 100-199 built by Budd Transit America 1983-86.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS Did you get to see those great LRV's running by Camden Yards.
Larry: No, I'm sorry, I missed them. My wife, who has seen them on other trips, tells me that me that we walked to the Yards from the wrong side to see the light rail. She has been there many times before with her sister and as a result was my tourguide. She was weary of my chatter about the Metro and was concentrating on showing me everything about the Yards like Babe Ruth's statue. I enjoyed the Metro ride so much that I'm sure I will be making another trip sometime and I will make a point to look for them then. I did get to ride on a #93 shuttle bus instead if walking back to the Metro. Regards, Karl
Don't forget that those in possession of the MTA Disability Reduced Fare Identification Card or Medicare Card can ride at US45c/ride or US$1/day pass or US$14/monthly pass (adult weekly pass is US$14, while the monthly pass ranges from US$54 to US$67.50).
The Baltimore MTA does NOT accept Medicare cards as proof of senior fare use. Only the MTA issued cards are accepted. No card? Pay $1.35 per ride or buy a day pass.
I often wondered what became of all of the Susan B Anthony silver dollars. It turns out that they have found a permanent home in the ticket vending machines and change machines on the Metro in Baltimore.
Path turnstiles give them out too. Not to mention stamp vending machines and probably any other vending machine that sells products worth more than $1.
-Dave
Bus fareboxes take them ... we get quite a few, particularly on the Express routes.
Mr t__:^)
Last time I used a Susan B. (left over from a LIRR TVM purchase) on a local bus the operator stopped me (even thought the farebox BEEPED a paid fare). Looked at the coin and then waved me pass.
Guess I surprised him..
Must have been on a TA bus, sorry couldn't resist ;-)
Seriously, the qty of SBA have incr. a bit here, but more & more folks are switching to the various flavors of MC, e.g. we see a couple of hundred $130 Unlim Express cards used on a week day.
Mr t__:^)
I am just going to have to get out more. I was shocked when I put the dollar bill in the vending machine at the Owings Mills Metro and got an Anthony silver dollar back. I had not seen one of those in years. I am used to the car wash machines around here where I get four quarters back for each dollar bill. The local bank has not had those Anthony coins in a number of years.
Karl B
Boston change machines, on the Green Line Riverside branch also give out SBAs in order to get on the inbound trolleys. In case of mechanical failure or a machine running out of coins, operators appear to take the dollar bills and stuff them into a side slot in the fare register, but I've been lucky so far and never had to present a bill to them.
NJT also dispenses the Susan B's as change. With the new dollar coin coming next year, though, I wonder what will happen - will the machines be converted (again) to recognize the new coin (it's not exactly the same size and weight) as well as the Susan B's, or will they just stick with one or the other? (The new coin is just as much a disgrace as the Susan B, in my opinion, but that's another subject altogether.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If it legal trender & fits into the farebox slot, then all the fareboxes will have to be converted.
I've nerver got a acceptable answer from the TA or Cubic as to why the SLOT wasn't made big enough to take half dollars. (GFI took the old, bigger Ike dollars, and half dollars)
- might be: didn't think anyone used them ... we didn't get many
- might be: would encourage too much foreign coin & junk, that would go ding as $1.00 or $ 1/2.
Mr t__:^)
It's surprising what will confuse the fare boxes or other automated collection systems. I've acquired several Israeli shekels in GSP token rolls (I use about one roll a month and seem to get a shekel every five or six rolls) - they're an exact match for the size and weight of the tokens, so I assume they entered the system through the fare baskets. Nobody's getting rich cheating the system, though - they're worth nearly the same as the token.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Back in the early to mid-80s (I believe), the Russian penny worked as well as a NYC subway token. I can't tell you how many rides I got using those pennies returning from a day at the beach in Brighton.
--Mark
Got stuff from all over the World here, incl. a FEW from Russia. Most of it goes clunk, but some counts as a fare. The best thing to happen recently was the new token, because the old one was the size of your local video-game room coin. Fortunately we only get a small handfull of all of them a week, but the DOT parking division has a big problem with a specific coin.
Mr t__:^)
The Soviet coin you refer to is a kopeck.
With inflation running amok in Russia, the kopeck has become all but worthless. If I'm not mistaken, they had a 5-kopeck coin called a piatak. It came in handy on Moscow's Metro, since a subway ride there cost 5 kopecks. Don't know if that's still true today.
probably not,70+ years of communism has left Russia a wreck
It's not the 70 years of communism that left Russia a wreck. It's the 8 years of sudden capitalism. Czarist Russia was MUCH worse.
[It's surprising what will confuse the fare boxes or other automated collection systems. I've acquired several Israeli shekels in GSP token rolls (I use about one roll a month and seem to get a shekel every five or six rolls) - they're an exact match for the size and weight of the tokens, so I assume they entered the system through the fare baskets.]
It's been claimed that some older vending machines can be fooled by NECCO candy wafers. These wafers are almost exactly the same size as a quarter, though of course much lighter.
The old NECCO wafer trick! I always thought it was very nice of the school administration to put them in the vending machines down by the laundry room - they wouldn't work in the washing machines but they'd fool the dryers (which were 10 cents for 10 minutes, half hour for a quarter back then).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder if Maxwell Smart ever heard of the old NECCO wafer trick. Goodness knows he knew just about every trick there was - and still fell for them!. (smirk)
The better machines look at weight & size before they count it as a fare ... I'm incl. non transit related machines too.
P.S. "size" can incl. diameter AND thickness.
Mr t__:^)
So, uh, what you're saying is, size does matter. ;-)
Both size matters and also what it's made out of - the latest in slug detection features a pair of electromagnets and a computer - The system works on eddy currents, and can detect, sort, and reject numerous coins. Side advantages include:
1) The computer can be programmed, and reprogramed to accept any coin - foreign or domestic. I believe the better systems can do this via a "learning" system, where you put examples of valid coins in. The manufacture loves this because one detector unit handles any kind of coin - only the sorting / storage chutes change.
2) By extension - new coins, or new tokens, can be programed into the system.
3) The coin changer setup can be had in a "drop in" replacement for old systems. It will interface with 120V logic used on older soda machines (it even uses the same plug that they've used for years and years) - BTW, the concept of a changing soda machine dates back at least a few decades - the first were electromechanical (solinoids and a few misc switches and a motor). I once saw one (mildly functional) Very slick device. Later ones were more electric than mechanical - today's are mostly fancy electronics, with solinoids to do the sorting out.
Most Susan B. Anthony dollars are sitting in government vaults. I've gotten them for change from stamp vending machines. If they're dated 1980 or 1981, I'll hang on to them, being the coin collector I am; otherwise they end up in the collection basket in church.
IMHO, if the new dollar coin is readily identifiable as such, it should catch on. I understand it will have a bronze tint. The real problem with the SBA dollar was that it looked too much like a quarter.
(Warning, getting offtopic)
> The real problem with the SBA dollar was that it looked too
> much like a quarter.
Complainers :-) I can identify susiebucks by feel in my pocket with other change. I guess I just have them more often than the average person. Of course, I once tried to use 3 susiebucks to buy breakfast and the cafeteria checkout lady didn't know what they were. I had to make her call the manager over. Course, I should have used a susiebuck and a two dollar bill.
-Dave
"susiebucks" That's a new nickname to me. I kind of like it. Baltimore Metro could call those change machines "susiebuck" machines.
Karl B
Down here we also refer to them as "Lizzie Borden" Dollars. That image of Susan B. is the UGLY champ of money.
You can always save your Susan B's for PATCO. That's what you get from PATCO's change machines also.
SBA were only made three years.
It's interesting that casinos use Kennedy half dollars, but their own dollars, probally relates to limited supplay of SBAs and almost no avail. of Ikes & older silver dollars.
Sorry Dave ... I'll stop my contrib to this thread.
Mr t__:^)
Here is a list of transit systems taking SBA Dollars:
PATH, PATCO, NJT, NYCT Bus fare boxes, Private lines(Queens Surface et al)
The orig. post on this subject prompted me to make a couple of calls, one to the TA, the second to our coin machine repairer.
The latter FAXed me a copy of a article off the internet. Within it I found the following (about the new golden-colored $1):
- Same diameter as SBA $1
- To be the same weight it will have to be thicker
- May appear in circulation early in year 2000 (another Y2K problem !)
P.S. Thickness could be a problem at the TA & "privates" as the coin slot will only tollerate just so much thickness in a coin ... I've tryed a few & some don't fit.
Thanks guys for the nudge :-) Mr t
Gold color? That I like- not with transit, but I have given SBAs as quartewrs and that hurts!. OF course I could see it now- I give a gold dollar(the new gold color dollar coin) to a customer and they'll say "what is that". I also see problems with vending machines-- I remember when the first "red edge" dimes came out-- the machines insisted on "Old" dimes and the nerw dimes would not work. This is the same problem with the new $20. I dread seeing the new $1 when it comes out unless vending machines are updated.
Vending machines are having problems right now with the new `50 State' quarters. The first two out -- Deleware and Pennsylvania -- tend to fly right through from the top slot to the coin return. This could be because they have the weight and feel of something that's made partially of plastic.
Eye spoke to a TA person in Brooklyn ... he said they knew about the new dollar coin, but then maybe he just said that so I would change the subject ?
Mr t__:^)
The Boston Globe is reporting today that the Treasury will mint additional SBA dollar coins to hold us over for the next year until the new coins are produced. It seems that there is a shortage of SBAs (even though most people dislike them) to fill the needs of vending machines that require them.
BTW, it's time for another weekend of Transit & Weather Together. I have three FunPasses (thanks to the mail order system, which worked well) in hand, and hope to be on the 1:00 pm Shuttle from Boston and "on the system" by 2:30! Hope to see some of you at the NYD/ERA meeting tonight.
That's interesting. I read a few years back that there were millions of SBA dollars sitting around in government vaults. Maybe that's not the situation anymore.
There were - but the government, thinking they would never be needed, destroyed them. This info comes from a US Army colonel of my acquaintance who was involved in their destruction - which was done in Germany, of all places, for security reasons.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why doesn't that surprise me?
They could have just melted them down at the mints the way all those silver coins were melted in the late 60s and early 80s.
> The latter FAXed me a copy of a article off the internet. Within it > I found the following (about the
> new golden-colored $1):
> - Same diameter as SBA $1
> - To be the same weight it will have to be thicker
Why would it have to be thicker? The coloring will presumably be a thin layer of plating on the ouside. If it actually contained any gold the dimensions would need to be smaller, not larger. So why can't the dimensions be the same as the SBA$?
Anyone know when these new "Sacajawea" dollars are actually supposed to be released? Or if a final design for the portrait of Sacajawea has been selected?
(In case anyone doesn't know, Sacajawea was a Shoshone (?) Indian girl, age 15, who helped guide Lewis and Clark on their famous expedition. She is to be featured on the new dollar, and several portraits of her were submitted as possible designs. A final choice was, I believe, to be made sometime this year.)
The article FAXed to me is from USA Today 11/10/97, some maybe someone else can update it (i.e. regarding the options that were being considered back then). In any case here's a little more detail:
"Mint is nearing key decision points on alloy system ..."
"Alloy ... either 'Nordic Gold' -- a copper/zinc/aluminum/tin alloy, or 'Modified British Pound' -- a copper/zinc/nickle alloy."
"Weight ... If the new coin is to be exactly the same weight as the SBA, then the thickness must be altered."
Mr t__:^)
Correct. It's not going to be plated - that would add too much cost to the production - it's going to be a new alloy, which affects the weight. I haven't seen any info indicating which alloy was selected (although I'm sure the decision must have been made by now), but I do seem to recall having seen something about the new coin being THINNER than the SBA dollar, in an effort to save material (and cost) and reduce consumer complaints about the weight of the coin.
The design decision has been made but I don't remember which one was selected. In my opinion, the choice of Sacagawea was inappropriate; the dollar coin should represent America and American ideals, and what better choices than either the mythical Lady Liberty or the Statue of Liberty? But liberty isn't important to Congress or politicians any more, only being "politically correct", hence the choice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think Sacagawea is **merely** a "politically correct" choice. Read the history of the Lewis & Clark expedition, or watch the PBS special they did on it. Sacagawea made important contributions to the success of the expedition, and some would say it would have failed without her. Anyway how does she not represent "America and American ideals" when she assisted in the settlement and development of the country all the way to the Pacific coast? If anything, she's probably politically INcorrect to many who see her as assisting "dead white European males" to cross the continent and thus eventually drive the native Americans off their lands.
It's not fair to pick someone just because they are native American and a woman, but its equally not fair to dismiss her selection just because she's native American and a woman.
Anyhow, what does this have to do with subways?
Subways are neat for the soul.
And we all know that everyone needs a soul.
What is the best route in terms of being both efficient & reasonable economical when going from New Rochelle to Boston? If I am given a couple of web sites that contain schedules and routes I'm sure I can figure out which mode of transportation to take i.e., subway or train. Thank you for any help as to this request!
Amtrak stops at New Rochelle on its way to Boston (some trains). Others you'll have to take Metro North to Stamford or New Haven and connect to Amtrak for Boston. No subways involved.
www.amtrak.com -> Amtrak
www.mta.nyc.ny.us -> Metro North
On Friday May 7 at 10:21 pm at Bedford Park Blvd of the D train, a diesel engine powered VAKTRAK went southbound to points unknown. It was 6 cars long with a motorpersons cab at both ends of the Vaktrak. I saw the inside of the cab and it had screens that are like tv's. Is this the train that looks at the tracks close up on the Tv screens or cleans up garabge from the tracks?
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
VAKTRAK is the vacuum train.
David
[On Friday May 7 at 10:21 pm at Bedford Park Blvd of the D train, a diesel engine powered VAKTRAK went southbound to points unknown. It was 6 cars long with a motorpersons cab at both ends of the Vaktrak. I saw the inside of the cab and it had screens that are like tv's. Is this the train that looks at the tracks close up on the Tv screens or cleans up garabge from the tracks?
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.]
For those involved in signal/track, when the Williamsburg Bridge gets new track and new signals, will the MAS be increased or is thisjust another exercise in futility?
I am not involved directly, but from what I hear, amazingly, the answer is yes. As you can see from the B39, the whole profile on the eastern approach is being lowered to remove the inexplicable rise and then downgrade onto the bridge. Also, the signals are being upgraded, which may remove some speed restrictions.
Is the bridge still open to Auto's??????
It's open to everything but trains at this point. The current repair progression is going from the south outer roadway to the north outer roadway. The south roadways are completed, and work on the north roadways will be done when the trains are restored.
-Hank
[I am not involved directly, but from what I hear, amazingly, the answer is yes. As you can see from the B39, the whole profile on the eastern approach is being lowered to remove the inexplicable rise and then downgrade onto the bridge. Also, the signals are being upgraded, which may remove some speed restrictions.]
Actually, it's quite "explicable." From what I hear, the rise was put in so the structure would clear the trolley cars entering and leaving Bridge Plaza.
David
I've just updated my "Modeling the NYC Subway" site at http://www.monmouth.com/user_pages/patv/railroad.html.
Photos from the May 1 & 2, 1999 East Penn Meet, as well as new photos of David Harrison's O Gauge Chicago L layout have been added. There are now 30 photos of NYC, Philly, and Chicago model subway and elevated lines as of this update.
On or before June 1, look for updated photos of the NYC R27 project. New detailing has been added to the roof and storm doors (including new windows in doors).
Pat
Where were you at the show? I was there with my videos - wish you would have stopped by.
Also, I'll be in touch with you regarding my layout - I videotaped it and once I get my new computer (and snappy) I'll have photos to add to your site.
--Mark
following on the success of the New York and Philly Pages, and the pending MARTA Page, I am looking for volunteers to do station by station pages for other rail system such as BART, Chicago, Boston (The T), etc.
The only input I have will be to forward your work to Dave Pirmann who will make the final edit.
I'd cover these systems myself but sont have enough vacation time and funds to travel to all these cities. I know we have sub talkers in many cities.
Now is your chance to see your name in lights! NYCSubway.org is a fantadtic site and your input will make it even better!
ps- SEPTA's Regional Rail is being done by Bob W and myself--stay tuned!
I was reading all the messages you guys have posted on how horrible OPTO is and being from Chicago and ridding the CTA, it really isn't that bad in some cases.
Many of the Motormen turned conductors just annonuce the station, say doors are closing and close the doors without looking at the back of the train. They then take leave the station while announcing the next station and the CTA rules between certain stations. The doors will pop back open if anybody gets caught between them anyway.
With the new microphones which are similar to telephones they can walk back into the cab with the mic.
If you have a fast and good motorman turned conductor it isn't that bad. It takes about the same amount of time as it did for a conductor to open a window, look out, and close the window.
Some of them are really bad and take a long time at each station, but if they are realy behind in schedule you usually end up getting an express ride to the station you suppost to be at anyway.
Im not being cute. By this person ought to see a Therapist. When he's on his way home at two in the morning, and some thug tries to "ask for some change" Then he will understand that OPTO is BAD.
Sounds like the situation you pose doesn't call for a conductor, but for more police on the subway.
Thank You. Like the conductor will get in the way anyhow? The last one that we know of trying was shot for his effort. The train crew is not the NYPD.
-Hank
No, the conductor won't act like a human shield. But the "bad guys" know that the extra set of eyes who can call for help promptly is missing.
But what about all the cars the conductor is NOT riding in?
The careful rider WILL ride in the conductors car. With OPTO, no such thing.
Hey, there's always the operators car, where we all usually ride....
-Hank
how is this motorman concentrating on operating the train while making public address announcements? sounds like improper operation to me. Isn't the operator supposed to look OUT OF THE train as the doors are closing? suppose some one tries boarding as doors close and the operator doesn't see this and the train POSSIBLY takes power while the DOOR MALFUNCTIONS and has a person dragged.. malfunctions do occur and the person dragged.
Here we go again. The pros and cons of OPTO can be catagorized in one of two, with the overview:
1. If your system started with OPTO with Day 1, it's OK (See Baltimore, Miami, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Washington, Cleveland,etc.)
2. If your system started from Day 1 with Motorman and Conductors, it's bad. (See NYCTA, CTA,etc.)
There will never be even ground.
All of the OPTO systems in 1. run trains with end doors locked, so you can't run from car to car. All cars have trainlined intercoms so that passengers can convers with the operator if a problem arises. Also, all doors have sensitive edges that WORKS!! If a door is held open, the brake circuit will not release and power cannot be taken. The operator CANNOT override this. In ATO or manual operation, the door circuit is supreme.
If NYCT desires full OPTO, then they must be ready to expend the dollars to retofit ALL cars as above. If not, they are looking for disaster.
[All cars have trainlined intercoms so that passengers can convers with the operator if a problem arises.]
However, one problem with the CTA OPTO conversion is that only roughly 20% of the fleet (the 3200's MK 1992) have intercom systems.
The other eighty percent of the fleet has none!
Jim K.
Chicago
aside from a motorman using side door by pass( upon permission from control center) malfunctions can occur where a train could take motor power without indication present. Where a population the size of NYC I cannot see opto used safely without fatalities occuring. AS for Mirrors, monitors and such i saw at control center what looks like an arrangement with monitor mounted in a train operators cab and using infrared transmission to wayside receiver to monitor cameras mounted on the platform to monitor a trains side doors for OPTO implementation. I my opinion I still feel it is unsafe in any form...
I agree completely. The vastness, sheer volume and complexity makes OPTO and any form of Automated train operation unrealistic. The only exceptions I could see would be shuttle lines like Times Square (originally a site of a doomed computer-controlled train) and Franklin Avenue in Brooklyn.
Anyone who favors OPTO or automated train operation is either (1) anti-people or (2) isn't a true railfan or (3) both. Call me an old fashioned romantic, but I think something is lost on a human level if the day comes when something as internationally recognized as the New York City Subway and its trains becomes just another piece of high-tech computer-controlled entity.
Doug aka BMTman
Have to say that I fear human error the most, so automatic train control with OPTO doesn't scare me. You still have a professional on the train. Getting on the road with amatuers driving -- THAT scares me.
But as I said, NYC will only adopt an innovation after everyone else has. By that time, it should be possible to have real evidence of the effect of OPTO, with before and after dwell time (sure it could be faked), and deaths and lawsuits (not likely to be faked) data.
Well, since it's proven itself in several other cities, now New York is coming on. Although, I do wish New York would once again be the innovator. Oh, and using the 'bypass' switch requires that the train actually be checked to see if there IS a door open, so 'dragging' a passenger isn't an issue. If the operator uses the bypass without checking the train, guess what? That's HUMAN error.
-Hank
[If the operator uses the bypass without checking the train, guess what? That's HUMAN error.]
How would you feel if you, one of your loved ones, or a friend was a victim of "human error"?
I just can't see the long range economics of OPTO. Sooner or later a law suit will cut heavily into any savings. Sure, you can say it would be paid out of insurance money; however, insurance premiums then go up after each accident. Even have an auto accident?
Jim K.
Chicago
It's still HUMAN ERROR, and not caused by OPTO, so it makes no difference. The computer didn't move the train, the HUMAN in charge did not look first. Just like crossing the street; if you only look left, and the car hits you from the right the minute you step into the crosswalk, who's fault is it?
-Hank
Note recent news item from San Francisco Muni Metro subway/surface system. operator left train for comfort/relief, unfortunately having mistakenly programmed the car. while he was using the facilities the doors closed and the train proceeded--NO operator on board!! several stops later the trolley was stopped by another crew person.
Then a few stories about ATO like this. Seems like a REALLY bad design! Don't think it should be able to happen in DC, where the operator has to close the doors from inside the cab, and press a start button. Seems obvious that starting the train should require a positive action, by someone inside the cab, in addition to the other indications that the train is ready to go. Was this not true in SF?
Nope, the new train control system in the Market St subway (when it's not stalling trains in tunnels for no reason whatsoever)supposedly operates by itself, TO is just supposed to watch & make sure nothing goes wrong (or at least this is the impression I've gotten from the newspaper reports out here). This is no trivial task, because things *do* go wrong. Most of the problems have been unexplained stoppages. Officials say this has been due to old cars not interfacing w/ the train control system. But if this can happen, it worries me that something worse could happen as well.
And then, just to throw the TO's to the opposite extreme, most of the routes away from the CBD are old-time streetcar routes that share busy surface lanes with cars, pedestrians, etc. Then they've had problems with getting trains arriving from the surface routes "initalized" into the ATO system, causing backups at portals to the subway.
Granted, SF MUNI in many ways is an example of how to do things wrong (questionable 90's hi-tech patching abomniable 70's hi-tech, grafted onto an old streetcar system). I don't know too much about ATO/OPTO on BART because I don't ride it often. Anybody with more knowledge on Bay Area ATO/OPTO systems, please correct me.
Bottom line for me, tho, is this-
SF MUNI is *unreliable*
BART is #$&% expensive
NY Subway has reasonable fares & gets you where you need to go on-time 95% of the time
This may be due to other factors than ATO, but that's my impression from riding all three.
*Plus* I would rather see public $ employing real live working people in the cities than having those same $ pad the profits of hi-tech consultancy firms. Another factor to consider with ATO projects is that they seem to attract bribery, kickbacks, & crooked contracting deals. Just an observation.
Bye for now.
I have read with great interest the current thread on OPTO.
Unless you've actually experienced the conversion I don't think you really know the impact of OPTO. BTW, once OPTO is on the scene, it is here to stay.
Take travel time for instance. The CTA's own estimation was it would add 10-12 minutes to the running time of the Red Line. Cutting this in half if you're traveling from the northside or southside, it may not sound to bad; however, the perception that the ride takes much longer turns off riders.
Put that together with safety issues, both operation and on train, and your traveling public isn't feeling to good about the trains. Note, I've noticed most of the riders on the Red Line in off-peak are crowding into the first two - three cars of an eight-car train. Very few venture into the seventh and eighth cars for the trip during the hours that kids are communting back and forth to school.
CTA's train length is roughly 400 ft. (eight cars at 48.8 ft). I've heard operators say it is VERY difficult to determine what activity, boarding and alighting, is going on at the end of the train on congested platforms.
In comparison, NYC operates trains that are far longer than CTA.
I'm all for transit operators saving money. It is a fact of life that the public trough is not endless; however, transit systems built in the early 1900's are NOT safe candidates for OPTO.
Although I’m not waiting for this an accident to happen, ONE dragging incident could produce a lawsuit that would wipe out any labor savings the CTA has had or expects to have in the future. Witness Rachel Barton who recently was awarded $29 million plus by a jury involving a METRA dragging accident. Ms. Barton did not die in the accident, but did lose a leg.
Jim K.
Chicago
When I was obsering OPTO on the G Line on a Sunday most of the people rode the first car. On one trip it was standing room only and the other 4 cars where almost empty. ofcause this was only one Sunday.
All lines operated by London Underground (except approx 50% of the Northern Line)are operated using the OPTO method of working and have been for a number of years.
Technology is so advanced nowadays that the in-cab display available to the train operator on the Northern Lines new stock that a "crystal clear" view of the platform whilst performing platform duties AND when
motoring away from the platform is available.
In recent years two tragic events occured on other "tube" lines where
passengers had items of clothing trapped in the doors and were dragged with the departing train leading to fatal injuries.Had a guard
been present on these trains it would not have occured,but so few incidents versus the number of trains in use and you don't have to be an accountant to view the savings.
Look at London, 1999 will indeed see a changing of the guard for the last time! ,when for the first time since the system opened ALL lines will be one person operated. New York can learn from our achievements
and learn even more from our mistakes.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
[In recent years two tragic events occured on other "tube" lines where passengers had items of clothing trapped in the doors and were dragged with the departing train leading to fatal injuries.Had a guard been present on these trains it would not have occured,but so few incidents versus the number of trains in use and you don't have to be an accountant to view the savings.]
Has the life of a human being been so cheapened that accountants and management of of transit operations can justify the occurance of a dragging accident? If this is so, I feel, said officals should be the first ones on defense in court when the accidents occur.
Secondly, if the public is behind the union on the safety issue, would they be willing to pay an extra dime to ride?
I am not a motorman or conductor for the union. I am however very frustrated at what the removal of conductors from the CTA's Red and Blue lines has done to the service.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim, you have "hit the nail on the head"!
Accountants viewing a yearly payroll for hundreds of conductors/guards
or paying a very rare out of court payment to a family who have suffered a loss..again the accountants win.
With the last London Underground line now going over to OPTO the guard/conductor is now confined to history over here, i feel that other cities will take Londons lead as you mentioned with CTA's red and blue line.
Regards
Rob ;^)
Wasn't the speed reduction due more the the elimination of the A/B service and that OPTO further slowed the service a bit. two trains running together but stopping at every other stop seemed like a much faster ride. Not very efficient labor wise though
In a long train if there is one train crew member or two still leaves a lot of cars with not crew person in them and a lot of responsibility for the public to behave well. Station personel can also help with safety concerns
I do not know what the answer to OPTO is but I expect we will find out.
Without taking sides on OPTO (at least in this thread!)
You CAN spend too much money on safety on a transit system, and end up COSTING lives. Why? Transit is SO much safer than driving, even in OPTO form, even in an old system like London. If you spend money on something for safety, you do not have that money to expand service or keep fares low. Either way you lose passengers, most of whom end up driving instead. If it is a significant number of passengers, as it will be if we are talking about significant amounts of money, it is assured that some of them will die as a result of driving instead of taking transit. Won't make the news, though, and the TA does not get sued.
I don't mean to justify London's clearly insufficient means of ensuring that no one is caught in the doors. If you are going to go opto, you need to be sure that no one is in the doors! And if service degrades as a result of OPTO, well that is different (more people back in dangerous cars).
Sorry, but guards/conductors do **not** prevent door accidents
, however sad they may be.
During the 1960s I was a lawyer with London Transport, dealing with accident claims. I recollect three or four incidents a year in which passengers were caught in closing doors, or forced open doors which had closed, unknown to the guard who couldn't see the whole train because of other passengers on platforms.
If anything OPO is safer because of better platform surveillance equipment.
Geoff
(In reality, OPTO safer) But is it slower, as some have said?
Yes "better platform surveilance equipment" For now and until the TA invests fully in the required equipment (too cheap) it is dangerous.
After the modifications are done, then it can and will work. Then I will support it. Now, I devote my full energies to fighting it.
(OPTO added 10-12 minutes to a trip, CTA says). If the reality is that it would add 5-6 minutes each way to your commute, then its not a good idea. It would be as bad as the Manhattan Bridge. But I'd want some verification of that -- are there before and after schedules available? Time is quality in transportation.
I've stated many times for the record that I am not a fan of OPTO. However, I took a ride on the G one weekend night. I rode in the cab and observed the operation - first hand. These are my observations:
- Since the majority of the station platforms are on the operator side, the operator has to cross the cab only a limited number of times.
- When he stops, he announces the station and opens the doors.
- He then makes the obligatory announcement and then closes the door.
- Once he has indication, he looks out to insure that no one is trapped.
- He then proceeds.
Does OPTO work? Yes in the setting of short, off-peak trains.
What is lost? Well we don't observe the train for 3 car lengths when in OPTO. We also do not have a person to man the radio if the operator has to go to the roadbed. The train is somewhat slower.
What do we gain? Lower costs. Less ABDs (abandonments) due to No Conductor available.
Are the trade-offs worth the gains? - I don't see it but then again, I'm no bean counter.
As regards the radio, this isn't as important as it once was, since the Train Operator's radio is now a handheld like the Conductor's, instead of being a "portable" that relied on the train for power.
David
[What is lost? Well we don't observe the train for 3 car lengths when in OPTO. We also do not have a person to man the radio if the operator has to go to the roadbed. The train is somewhat slower.]
Yah but there are lots of times those radio's die on you when your down the road. There where times my conductor had to relay messages for me to control center or a local tower.
I should have added to my prior message side door bypass with permission is in relation to a train in passenger service where the train does not have indication for side doors closed and locked.
Having read all the posts on this very touchy subject, I repost what I posted earlier. I'm not in subway management anywhere, but this "one-man" process was fought out by the streetcar industry in the 1920's and 1930's, and we all know it was a succes and universally accepted.
So, here it is one last time. IF there are ANY differing points of view, post it after this.
The pros and cons of OPTO can be catagorized in one of two, with the overview:
1. If your system started with OPTO with Day 1, it's OK (See Baltimore, Miami, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Washington, Cleveland,etc.)
2. If your system started from Day 1 with Motorman and Conductors, it's bad. (See NYCTA, CTA,etc.)
There will never be even ground.
All of the OPTO systems in 1. run trains with end doors locked, so you can't run from car to car. All cars have trainlined intercoms so that passengers can convers with the operator if a problem arises. Also, all doors have sensitive edges that WORKS!! If a door is held open, the brake circuit will not release and power cannot be taken. The operator CANNOT override this. In ATO or manual operation, the door circuit is supreme.
If NYCT desires full OPTO, then they must be ready to expend the dollars to retofit ALL cars as above. If not, they are looking for disaster.
SF BART is OPTO or rather OPT attendant who watches the computer run the train. S/he overrides doors and makes announcements. at least once one of them fell asleep but the train continued. 2 the end doors are mercifully not locked. Yes there is intercom. You are in general correct that the opinions are tied to the local history.
Unfortunately, OPTO does not take into account the possibility of a sick passenger aboard a train. Should it be late at night and no other passengers are aboard to call for help -- for argument sake -- a heart attack victim could go w/o help and perhaps die.
Obviously, unless this person were in the conductor's car, he/she wouldn't be noticed anyway.
Just a quick thought.
(Heart attacks, security, etc.) That argues for having a conductor roaming through the train off peak and leaving the train operator to handle to doors, just as the token sellers will not be moving through the station. You can't do much in a booth in either case.
Coincidently, TA rules used to require that on runs where the time between stations was 5 minutes or more the Conductor had to "patrol the train"
I'm not saying that I'm a fan of OPTO, however would you rather have the CTA cut more of it's transit services or reduce them to week-days only or implement OPTO.
With the security issue, they have security guards roaming the stations that need it during overnight hours. I personally would rather see them roaming the trains.
Lets also be honest. Even if a conductor was on the train can they really see everybody and watch what they are doing at a station like Addison street on the Red Line after a Cubs game?? NO, they just say the doors are closing and hope for the best. Half of the people get caught in the doors, get out, and have to wait for the next train. You could have a person in every car of the train and you still have to do this.
A conductor ridding throught a busy subway station like Washington/State also can't possibly make sure everyone is clear of the doors or see beyond the crowd of people in front of them to see if all the doors on the train are clear.
The only way you could really be safe is have a camera on each set of doors that the motorman would have to review before leaving each station.
I think if conductors have to be gettin rid of it does suck, but we can never really be safe even with them. And people like us who ride and know the trains know how to be safe and don't need them anyway.
BJ
Has anyone ever noticed the grafitti on the signal equipment boxes on IRT in the Bronx (particularly on the Pelham Bay line)? I saw "OPTO Kills" written in white (what looked like grease pencil) on a lot of the boxes... rather interesting.
Mike
Just because it's written in graffiti, doesn't make it any less true.
I agree, alot of people want to see opto as a way to lower the fare which it won't. Its a boon doggle which in these times of ridership increase isn't business smart.
It won't lower the fare, but it will reduce operating costs, thus keeping the fare down. OPTO is standard operating procedure for the majority of the worlds transit systems, and don't tell me it won't work in New York because of the age of the system. It works quite well in London, and their system is older. I have many times asked people opposed to OPTO to show me an instance where an injury was directly related to OPTO, and no one has yet come through. The conclusion is simple, really. OPTO is perfectly safe, and the only reason to oppose it is to save jobs. The TA sure isn't going to lay anyone off, so the only way those jobs will be lost is by not replacing retirees and promotees. Thus, the union loses a dues-payer, and with the current state of union leadership in this city, I'd say they're crying because they can't take their vacations on the workers dime.
-Hank
Hank there where lot of times Conductors saved lifes. I don't no if the following problem occurs in other cities but in NYC these Youths think a fun after school activity is Surf rideing the back of a subway train. There where lots of times I was leaveing the station the conductor would pull the Emergency Brake because someone tryed to ride the back of my train. If it was not for the conductor there may have been a body along the track descoved by the following train. Also if NYCT did this full time what are they going to run 5 Cars. I can see a 5 car Uptown No.1 train at Times Square on the PM Rush Hour with the OPTO person trying to close down the train. If they did it with 10 Cars it would crazy.
But that would not be the direct fault of OPTO, it would be the direct fault of idiocy on the part of the 'surfer'. And if your conductor didn't spot the induhvidual(s) [-thanks Scott Adams], it's not his fault either. Once the doors are closed, the train is safe to move if there's no one in front of the train and your signal is green. No amount of supervision or safety devices, short of closing the system to induhviduals (try and weed THEM out) or using walls and platform doors (a REALLY expensive solution) will stop it. Hell, they even climb up on top from between cars. Not your responsability, and I dare anyone to say it is (besides Allen Rothenberg and the like; no offense Mr. Bredin). Any jury of people with IQs over 75 should be able to figure out where the fault lies.
-Hank
OPTO is not that bad. It's management's perogative to try and save money.
Yeah that's what you say, because your'e not Conductor or a Motorman!
When you are out there all alone on the road, and the train breaks down, and the radio's in a dead spot.
Or worse, you need help, and the radio is in a dead spot. Every one has a smart answer for this, oh It saves money. It's progress, everyone else is doing it.
New York is not Chicago or Boston OR London.
Why the fleet at Jamaica Yard alone is bigger than Chicago's entire fleet. We carry too many people on trains that are too long. There are platforms in this system that are crowded 24/7. Straight ones, that even with cameras are difficult. That after one train leaves, there are still a signifigant number of people there. So just because the TA made it work in the Rockaways, where hardly no one rides, don't think it will work every where. It's not working on the G. I have a close friend who works Court Sq. Every weekend. I hear of Dispatchers told by the Supt. to forge arrival times on train register sheets. Because so many trains arrive ten end twelve minutes late.
I hear of supervisors ordring OPTO train operators to violate the operating rules, so as to make up time. I hear of accidents and crimes that get covered up. The TA want's this to work, and they are obviously going to great lengths to make it work.
ONE law suit (let's not do the Lawyer thing again please) will wipe away all the savings for that year. Regardless of whether the TA wins or not.
The woman that was raped on the G a few months back. She was in the last car of the 4 car R46. WHERE THE CONDUCTOR WOULD HAVE BEEN. No he's no cop, I agree. But I very much doubt that the rapist would be as brazen enough to attempt to comit his filthy crime in front of witnesses!
Now I'm a realist. I know that they really have a hard on for this, and manegement won't give it up. At least not without a major concession. A few months back, they offered us(TWU) OPTO, in exchange for us giving up our current civil service title system. Both Conductors and Motormen would be merged into one title and promotion would then be based on manangement's whim. We told them a resounding no! If they want it that bad to offer us OPTO, then hell no, it's gonna be bad for us.
But it goes to show you, they know OPTO isin't working. It's costing them more in extra supervision than it would have cost, just to pay a damn conductor!
But their hubris won't allow them to admit this, so they have to quietly get rid of it, like as if it was a concession to us or some thing. Try and save face.
To prove a little more, OPTO was supposed to be coming to the C on CPW for the week ends. But that went in the can.
It was also supposed to be on the Nasssau St. shuttle. Where'd that go?
The Rockaway's probably not going because the dumb train operators out there break the rules for management and make the stuff work. Lazy fools.
Interesting to see what happens though.
Still changes nothing in the TA's grand plan. They want to get rid of the title CONDUCTOR. Many of the jobs we traditionaly have held were given to other people in the last few years. Soon all we will have left is the road jobs, and then sooner or later after that, TA will fold our titile into the train opertor ,like they already tried, and then the book will close on another page of transit history.
One more thing to add. With the Grand Cenral Shuttle they are paying more for OPTO then just having a Conductor. Now with the true definition of OPTO the Grand Cental shuttle would not realy be OPTO. Anyway the 42 St Shuttle has 2 train Operaters one on both ends on all tracks. Exept when TK 4 is not running. At Grand Central there is a TSS there all the time. Ofcause there it always been like that. Now at Times Square there is a Platform Conductor stationed at the old Conductors position.
soon the second t/o will be removed and then the cost savings will show also, there was always a T.S.S. assigned to the Grand Central complex
The woman that was raped on the G a few months back. She was in the last car of the 4 car R46. WHERE THE CONDUCTOR WOULD HAVE BEEN. No he's no cop, I agree. But I very much doubt that the rapist would be as brazen enough to attempt to comit his filthy crime in front of witnesses!
It could easily have taken place in the third car, or on a longer train, anywhere. It has more to do with a lack of police presence, a rider not riding safely (being aware of surroundings, etc.), and the true lack of a way for anyone (including crew) to call for help.
Obviously, much infrastructure improvement is neccesary for OPTO to truly work, and I don't expect to see it in wide use for several years, but there is absolutely no reason why it can't work, and be 99.9% safe. (nothing is 100% foolproff) Personally, I'd like to see a system where the speed is controlled like it is on the LIRR and MNCR, if not a semi-auto system such as that in use on WMATA or BART, which is a lot safer than complete human control. The whole objection to OPTO is job, not safety related. Otherwise, more WORKERS would follow the rules, and (no offense to you or other workers who don't do the following) smoke, listen to radios, flirt, graffitti signals and punch boxes, or otherwise abuse the system.
-Hank
I wouldn't say the WHOLE argument against is about saving jobs. But I'll play to your side a moment.
You seem to have an easy answer for everything, but in reality, theres no simple solution. Here, and Now, the OPTO thing is wrong. I do agree in a perfect world,it will work. But in the enviornment we have, it is dangerous. Out in the Rockaways it does OK.But the ambitious fools weren't satisified. Now they want more. And they are more than willing to sacrifice safey to push OPTO where it's not ready for it.
Do you really think a crowded C carrying partygoers from saturday evening festivities on CPW is a place for OPTO? Now with an R68a?
At 2AM yes. But then again the C dosen't run then.
I have said this before, I am a realist. I know as a conductor, my job is doomed. But the whole process is not the problem. Just the way it's currently being carried out.
Yes, OPTO is ineviteble. But it has to be done within reason. Not just for the sake of having it, TO SAVE MONEY!
Cameras, inter-coms, doors with sensitive edges. Not the way things they are now. But that's asking for too much from the blood sucking scum that resides on the 13th floor.
(My job is doomed). OPTO, if it is ever implemented, will take a long time. But even if it were implemented overnight, some of that money (I'd hope all of it) would be used to hire more train operators to run more off-peak service. And conductors would be first in line for the job, and the raise.
Why should those fat cat bastards upstate and on jay street save money? we all pay a g*d damned buck fifty to ride the system. if they want opto they should lower the fare. if they can charge us 1.5 rocks they can at least give us 2 sets of eyes.
Well said. Thank you. I agree.
But it does show a lack of respect for the equipment. Amazing how they blame 'vandals' for some damage that can only be caused by employees.
-Hank
Yes I seen that on most of the IRT Lines in the Bronx. On the No.1/9 Line its on the signal North of 238 Street on the Uptown. On the No.2 Line I seen the Grafitti on the signals at Pelham Parkway Northbound and Southbound and others on the No.2+5 Lines. on the No.6 Line North of Burhre Ave. Most on the Griffiti is done on the Elevated Structure in Northern part of the Bronx. Also its only written on Signals before or after the station.
READ the Writing on the WALL
Thanks Steve.
I had always thought that the Flat Motor had the same trucks as an R1. Two motors per axle. Sounds like the arrangement on a GG1.
The engine you mentioned, was that an IND engine? Or a loaner from BMT?
I know the IRT had Steam, from the El days, and the BMT probably had them too. I would really like to find a reference on the subject.
Thanks for the invitation. I promise not to violate the Taylor law or my Union Bylaws. Do you have a C/I named Kenny Newton working there? I knew the man, through a mutual friend some years ago. His mom was an RTO Supt. on the Flushing line.
CI Newton worked for me many years ago. He became a semi-celebrity due to his medical problems. His wife also is in transit and is a bit more infamous.
You can get my phone # at any Of the terminals and give me a call when you want to visit.
For those unfamiliar, U.S. vs National City Lines was the antitrust case in which General Motors was convicted of participating in the willful dissolution of streetcar systems, though the sanction against it was a slap on the wrist.
I've reprinted the 1974 "Third Rail" article on the subject at http://rapidtransit.net, for those who are interested in some detail.
Also at the site, I've added some more Silver Leaf publications to the list since I last announced, including thumbnails of covers for collectors.
Questions or comments are welcome.
--Paul
Two items of interest today from the Boston area MBTA.
First, there is a bill pending in the state house to raise fares over the next few years. By 2001, the subway fare would go from .85 to $1; the bus fare from .60 to .85. A further increase would occur in 2006 (subway to $1.25). Commuter rail pass fares would also go up, though the details are not yet clear. Other changes in the MBTA funding would also occur, to help alleviate the current $800 million deficit. Even at the above levels, fares would be among the least expensive in the country.
Second, AMTRAK currently has contracts with MBTA Commuter Rail to operate the trains, do track maintenance, and maintain the trains. The latter contract was just awarded to a lower bidder, Bay State Transit Services (joint venture of Boise Locomotive & Herzog Transit Services) for $175.5 million, $116 million less than AMTRAK's bid. Two other bidders, Bombardier and MassRail, were between these two. Bay State claims they can do the job with 300 vs. AMTRAK's 500+ employees; the union of course if not happy. This is a highly charged, political issue, and there's more to come. The contract for AMTRAK to operate the trains and do the trackwork will be put out to bid in the near future as well.
Today wasn't all bad. At Seashore this morning I operated Third Avenue Railway System 631, and during one move, had it within bumper distance of IND R4-7 800/1440 :-)
Interesting info, Todd. Looks like the MBTA is slowly catching up to the NYC fare. One question though...will the fares on the "D" line go up also...I pay $1 to go inbound from Resevoir. -Nick
Privitization in the land of the Kennedys? Seems like it. The only difference is since MBTA was already contracting with a federal agency, they won't have to fire their own employees, just AMTRAKs.
I'm not surprised that a private company can operate more efficiently than a government agency. On the other hand, I have my doubts that a government that is incapable of hiring productive employees is somehow capable of hiring a good contractor. The problems are the same. All I can say is, BEWARE THE LOW BIDDER! They often cost the most in the long run.
Regardless of what happeneds with the MBTA fare structure, it would be nice if the MBTA provided a monthly bus/subway pass for those with the "Commonwealth of Massachusetts TRANSPORTATION ACCESS PASS".
Actually, Andres...you can buy a subway/bus pass if you want to shell out $46 each month. Of course, with me being at college, I get a 25% discount...so it would only cost me $34.50. Most schools only get an 11% discount, but my school has a high amount of commuters.-Nick
You said it! You get what you pay for.
It's interesting that there apparently wasn't any garantee of union jobs in the old contract.
Here in NYC the TWU would be part of the deal, which would make it much harder to come in with a much lower bid.
Hi from Binghamton Univ.
Mr t__:^)
What is OPTO -- sounds like some evil plot to understaff the subway so the fat cats in senior management can justify their obscene salaries. Also, what does the acronym OPTO stand for
One Person Train Operation.
When is the next field trip ???
Hey Moe, (I've always wanted to say that)
The field trips aren't regularly scheduled things... When the next one is planned you'll see discussion of it here, most likely a week or so in advance to give everyone sufficient notice.
-Dave
Does any one there have info. about METRO......Car info Ext????/
The Washington DC Metro Page has information regarding the Metro rolling stock. They have 766 cars in operation. Click on the above link to view this page.
Wayne
A bunch of us were waiting for the G/R train at Roosevelt Ave in Queens only to be greeted by unpleasant but VERY missing service signs and a PA announcement to that effect. Why wasn't this posted inside the tollbooth also as many others do? No signs, no PA message for 20 mins later and lots of us late for work having to take the E/F to 71st then double back. What a pain !!
red and white posters are posted to inform regarding service diversions/disruptions located through out most subway stations usually near subway maps or as they're called Passenger Information Centers. They're usually located close to Token booths or soon to be called Station Service centers(or something i've heard). For most part 95% of riders do not bother to read these and find out at last moment. When information is posted in the booth and say you are not purchasing token/metrocard folks just walk on by....
Well, there wasn't any red and white posters and all of us had to listen to the PA announcer which is quite impossible because it's inaudible.
While aboard an 179 St-bound F train, we arrived at Roosevelt Ave and people got off to wait for a local to Forest Hills. The conductor made NO announcements indicating that there are no R trains and that all trains are going express to Forest Hills. But the platform PA system made that annoying recorded announcement of a lady saying "uptown trains are running express." Most people didn't really pay attention or understood what it meant, because it is so vague and inapplicable to this line. I mean I can understand if that was used in Manhattan, but what does "uptown trains" have to do with Queens. Would it kill them to make a recording saying, "Queens-bound trains are running express?"
And one other thing, does anyone know how this new PA system and LCD signs work? Where and how do they type in the texts on the LCD displays on the platform? Does each line have a central control of the LCD signs? How does the voice announcements work? Can some one recording a certain message like, "Attention ladies and gentelmen, all Queens-bound trains are operating express from Roosevelt Ave to Continental Ave. For local stations, transfer at Continental Ave for a Manhattan-bound E or F train making all local stops to Manhattan," and play it each time a train pulls in?
When I work in Queens ( as little as posible) I have this problem all the time. People get used to the service diversions all the time, and after being screwed a few times, they don't trust signs or annuncements.
So now I get a line of 10 people at my window. All with similar questions. No matter that I inputted the special side sign code that says "EXPRESS" only, or "LOCAL" only and nothing else.
They have no faith in the system, so they all want individual attention. I would like to give it to them. They paid their fare, and deserve it. But unfortunatly I have to keep the train rolling. So I answer 2 or 3 and then I say "follow him" or "ask him, I just explained it"
It's not somthing I enjoy. What's really needed are platform personnel. But I aint holding my breath.
All comes back to my main point about the TA. It's not about quality, or service. Only what's cheapest. "Damn the fare paying passenger. They have to ride any way. What else are they going to do?"
I can hear Frank Corral right now in Pelham 1-2-3: "Screw the g&%$#$% passengers! What the hell do they expect for their lousy $1.50 - service?"
There is a caption in Subway Cars of the BMT beneath an interior photo of a BMT standard carrying revenue passengers: "Riders generally knew where they were going and preferred a quiet ride." It may have had to do with an experimental PA system which was tried on a handful of BMT standards. My, my, how times have changed.
I understand signs were not posted. Only the suits at Jay St, can answer for that! The switch leaving Continental Ave., which the G and R need to use to relay for their next trip is out of service for weekend work. The G does not run out there on weekends so they can operate OPTO between Court Sq. and Brooklyn. The R was being turned at 57/7 in Manhattan. Announcements are supposed to be made by the towerman at Roosevelt Ave. as each E & F come in as well as by the crew on the trains. The R could have ran in Queens via the express track to Union Tpke. relayed north of the station, ran lite back to Continental Ave. and provided normal southbound service. Obviously , the TA didn't want the E F & R all operating on the same tracks at the same time.
The token booth is now called--drumroll:
Station Service Booth.
as for train delays: every week every fulltime booth gets a liost of all G.O.s effecting the system. You can always ask your friendly station agent (especially when there is no line)for any disruptions involving a particular line.
I think the new name for the token booth is not going to last. Heck, the names BMT, IRT and IND haven't disappeared yet and the token booth is just about as synonymous with the subway as the 3 divisions .....
--Mark
I can identify with this. On Saturday, I was waiting for a friend at Lexington on the 'N/R', when I noticed an inordinate number of 'N's passing through, but no 'R's, not to mention an increasingly large and irate crowd of people waiting. Finally, I noticed someone asking an Astoria-bound 'N' conductor if there was any problem with the 'R', only then to be told about the service disruption.
Several people went ballistic for good reason:
-They had been waiting up to an hour for an 'R' to Queens;
-No signs of any kind on the platform notifying us of this change (but loads of signs about the Williamburgh closure which most people waiting at Lexington/59 could not care less about);
-NONE of the conductors of the many 'N's that had passed bothered to make any announcements along the lines of "No 'R' to Queens; take this to Queensboro Plaza for the '7' to 74th", etc.
So, who takes responsibility for this? If the 'N' conductors KNOW there's no 'R', why should we have to ASK them? Shouldn't they be making announcements, especially in the absence of any signs OR mentions of this on WINS? I asked several other conductors why THEY weren't making announcements and usually received a curt "Not their job; why dont'cha ask?; you shouldn't have been waiting this long."
Yes, people SHOULD use their heads and make other arrangements, but the onus should be on the TA to advise the PASSENGERS, not letting them stand there waiting for trains that aren't running!
Conversations broke out among some of the angered masses. We found out that one woman got fired right over the phone when she contacted her boss to tell her she was delayed. If she had known there was no 'R' to Queens, she would have immediately gone another way. At least two other person were late for a wedding and funeral.
I called the TA Customer Disservice department this morning to ask these questions, was switched around several times, and then cut off. When I attempted to contact the alleged station manager to ask why there were no signs posted, I ran into voice mail.
Good job, TA! No signs OR announcements of any kind! You're batting 1.000!
P.S: My friend was late because there was no notification at Steinway Street of lack of 'R' service, either!
"So, who takes responsibility for this? If the 'N' conductors KNOW there's no 'R', why should we have to ASK them? Shouldn't they be making announcements, especially in the absence of any signs OR mentions of this on WINS? I asked several other conductors why THEY weren't making announcements and usually received a curt "Not their job; why dont'cha ask?; you shouldn't have been waiting this long.""
But you in turn expect the N Conductors to know that there are no signs posted about this change in service? They expect the signs to be there every bit as much as you do.
Shouldn't they be making sure that you know the train isn't running? It seems sort of fundamental that that information be conveyed to the passenger. This means a little bit of redundancy in getting info to the passenger.
Would a worker for an airline who responded "It's not my job to the question "why didn't you tell me this flight was cancelled?" keep his job?
The token booth has a white marker board behind where the agent sits, that will contain handwritten bulletins of disruptions due to repair work or other emergencies. If the agent has enought time he/she will write up a detailed list of alternate routes and what not. However this may not be reliable all the time.
I recommend checking out the MTA web site @ www.mta.nyc.ny.us, click on the Subways section and then the Service Notices button. There is a fairly comphrehensive listing of service changes for the upcoming week due to track work or whatever. Click on the line symbol and you'll be all set. Look up the subway line you're using before heading out and allow a few extra minutes for delays. I do this all the time and it saves me a lot of headaches and grief and it's less annoying than calling the info line and not getting thru.
Since the website has been put up, it's been a godsend when I'm trying to plan out my trip. It's fun being in the know about this stuff while dodging track work on the line.
Yeah, but most times it's about a week behind reality.
-Hank
When was the last time the SI Ferry was suspended due to weather. at 408am todasy, WCBS reported ferry service suspended due to dense fog. I thoufght the boats had fog horns and radar?
They do. No reason for them to suspend service, although in fog they do run slower (about 35 mins instead of 20 mins) Last time I recall the ferry being suspended for weather was in 1993, when we had that nasty noreaster that flooded much of Staten Island. The problem wasn't specifically because of the weather, but the storm surge pushed the water level up high enough that the ferry deck was too high for the lower bridge to meet the boat. Since the lower bridge is how they moor the boat....
-Hank
I can not believe they canceled the boat due to fog. Many Many a time I rode the Ferry in much worse fog. You couldn't see the front of the boat from the main cabin doors. We would slow crawl, power back the engines and sound the horn. The Captain would listen to th echo, power up and crawl further along.
When we got near NY Side, the whole crew was on the front main deck and I believe BOTH captains were in the wheelhouse (each trip one captain is supposed to rest). The would sound the horn, you would hear the echo, sound the horn. The whole crew (exception of the engine crew) were looking for the flashin strobe lights that are at the end of the pier (just as bright as plane landing signals). When of the crew saw the stobe pointed out to the wheelhouse and we landed 5 minutes later.
That has been my experience on the Ferry in the Fog and I rode it almost every day when I lived in Staten Island (1984-1995).
I rode the Staten Island Ferry some time ago in heavy fog. In addition to the Captain the Assistant Captain and two deckhands were in the pilot house acting as lookouts. An additional crewman was stationed at the forward end of the upper deck and could relay sightings verbally to the captain. If the Titanic had stationed someone on the bow of the ship to act as a lookout she might have made port.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In addition to the men in the Pilot House and on the upper deck, there was probably another D/H on the main deck. The best view in the fog is down low...
Of course the big problems were when it was foggy and raining so hard that the radar was useless...
Before the boats had SERIOUS radar, the American Legion was struck by a Norweigian cargo ship, the Hoegh Orchid, May 6, 1981; my sister's birthday.
-Hank
And she survived! I remember seeing pictures of the ferry with one side (the port side, I believe) stove in, the lower level ceiling haning down etc. American Legion (built in 1965) is still running, correct?
Wayne
Back in 1963 or so, the Verazzano also had a fog-related run-in with the boat, but was able to limp into dock at Staten Island before sinking to the bottom (not a very deep one BTW) at the gate. I remember a book on the history of the Staten Island Ferry had a photo of the boat resting with the water level just about even with the vehiclar deck.
Poor old Verrazano! I remember her well; I took Rosemary my lady friend for a ride on her back on Dec. 7 1975 and we first kissed on her bow. It was freezing cold, foggy withal, and the "V" was blowing her horn in the murk. Now she's a ghost ship somewhere, else she's been scrapped.
Isn't the waterline just below the level of the vehicular deck anyway?
Wayne
Verrazzano drew about 19' of water and the main deck is about 4-5 feet above that.On Sept 23,1963 she was rammed by "Poling Bros No 8" a small coastal tanker and holed below the waterline. In those days the harbor was a much busier place and the Coast Guard maintained very large ocean going tugs at the Battery Park Maritime Building ready to steam at a moments notice. When the emergency signal was sounded on the ship's whistle two of these tugboats came to her assistance and kept her afloat by virtually lifting her bow above the water. They pushed her to Staten Island were she sank in her slip. The water came up to but did not cover the vehicle deck. The only injuries occured when she bumped the slip at Staten Island and a few passengers were thrown off their feet. She passed to private ownership and until recently was tied up offshore at Tompkinsville. Her owner has since moved her but I don't know where.
Larry,RedbirdR33
If you look back in history, you are hard pressed to find a ferryboat that has been in as much mischef as the F/B AMERICAN LEGION. In 1977, under the direction of Capt. Irving Satler, she hit the seawall at Battery Park. Capt. Satler retired shortly after the incident. If I recall correctly, the blame was put on the fog and the lack of radar in the operating end.
The second mishap occured in 1983 when she was hit by a Norweigen freighter. Capt. Joe Zaccone was found to be partially at fault. The radar was (again) out in the NY End, and she was being turned around to do the trip from the SI End. This mishap was one one reasons that the NY Vessel Traffic Service (NY VTS) was started. Granted, NY VTS took many years to start afterward (see budget cuts in previous postings).
According to my parents (who still live on SI), the F/B VERRAZZANO has been moved - under her own power - to South America to ferry passengers.
Of course, if people choose to, we can also discuss the mishaps on the F/B SAMUEL I. NEWHOUSE that nearly caused her to sink...or the mechanical difficulties on the F/B ANDREW J. BARBERI that caused her to have half her superstructure removed to replace a very large cog...
Chip
Chip: What exactly was wrong with the Andy B?
Larry,RedbirdR33
There was a problem about 8 or 9 years ago - maybe longer - with the Volth-Schneider propulsion system. If you're not familiar with that system, here's a quick run down of it:
Instead of having a screw prop on each end of the boat with a rudder for steering control, there is a cycloid prop on each end, with fins on them that varry to control direction. Of special note tith this type of system is that the boat can move sideways - yes actually sideways! - or can pivot on center. There is control to both ends in each pilot house.
There is a VERY large cog that sits on top of the prop. The one on the SI end of the BARBERI was flaking apart. The term that I heard used was "turning into corn flakes". That led her to be operated at much reduced speeds, and even led to the other boats passing her during rush hours.
The repair was completed at Cadells Dry Dock. To replace the cog, they needed to take the better part of the SI End of the boat off.
BTW, the BARBERI, NEWHOUSE, AUSTEN, and NOBLE have this system. That's why the hitting the rack is limited on those boats. Another interesting tidbit is that if the AUSTEN and NOBLE didn't have this system, they would not be able to dock at the current slips - the boats are too small to use the traditional kiss the rack and aim to the bridge.
Chip
Chip said something about a large cog sitting on top of the propellor
on the SI ferry boats with the Volth-Schneider propulsion system.
There is a room on the lower deck. The room has a door labeled "Propulsion Gear Space". Is that it? It has a catwalk with a monitoring well in the center. I say it's about 25-30 feet in diameter. What is that cog used for? Does it turn the prop?
During one of the Fleet Days in NY Harbor a special Ferry trip for some group had the Newhouse out. They were spinning the boat around it's center point. Looked like fun!!
Captains forget about it though, since the Barb and Newhouse are still kissing the rack and bouncing to the bridge more often than not >GThe worst part of the Austen and Noble are the passanger aprons, and that steep walk (I hit my head at 6'8") to the deck.
The BARBERI and NEWHOUSE are clumsy boats to handle. One of the most important things to be able to watch is the main deck of the boat when docking - it lets you know when to back, when to steer, etc. You can't see the end of the main deck on these two boats! This look down is too steep. The city's solution was to built what can best be described as a wooden milk crate to look down.
Chip
Chip: Thank you for the explanation. I know that the Barberi Class has a great deal of vibration which is especially noticeable on the lower deck.
Larry,RedbirdR33
what about the kenndy? is it still in service?
Chip: All three Kennedy Class boats are still in service along with the two Barberis and the two Austens.
Larry,RedbirdR33
"According to my parents (who still live on SI), the F/B VERRAZZANO has been moved - under her own power - to South America to ferry passengers. "
The last item that the SI Advance printed about the Verrazano had it being moved to the Brooklyn Navy yard under tow when its mooring site in Staten Island was demolished. Recently there was mention of have it taken to Japan to serve as a floating NYC attraction catering to the 1000's of Japanese tourists heading to NY
All the way to SOUTH AMERICA under her (his) own power? That is one tough old boat! God Bless our old Verrazano, and the Cornelius G. KOLFF and Pvt. Joseph F. MERRELL too. All from the class of '51.
I remember those boats very well, commuting from Manhattan to SI frequently between '73 and '77.
Wayne
Both the 'Pvt Joseph F Merrill' and the 'Cornelius G Kolff' are still with us,being used as floating dormitories at Rikers Island. The Merrill has been renamed 'Vernon C Bain' but I believe the Kolff retains her own name.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I rmember going to day camp back in the 60s on SI, and the one thing about those boats, espcially the Merrill and the Verrazzano -- they could haul! One trip across on the V took only 18 minutes, way faster than the older boats, though they didn't have the wood-panelled elegance of the Knickerbocker and the Dongan Hills, which were retired when the Kennedy class boats arrived.
And let us not forget such antiquities as the Mary MURRAY, the Miss NEW YORK, the Alexander HAMILTON etc. Poor Mary, stuck in the mud of the Raritan River, rusting away...at least Miss NY has gotten a new lease on life.
Wayne
Washington State Ferries had a boat (The M.V. Olympic) which was originally built and operated in Baltimore in 1925. In 1958 it sailed all the way around Cape Horn, thence up to the Seattle area, and it was in service until 1994. It is now under private ownership and rests in the WSF yard at Eagle Harbor, WA. The reason it did not
go through the Panama Canal was that it was too wide.
Not Baltimore, but the Chesapeake Bay. When the Bay Bridge opened in 1952 the ferryboats were sold to Washington State, sailed through the Panama Canal (First ferryboats to do so, AFAIK) to Seattle.
"Not Baltimore, but the Chesapeake Bay. When the Bay Bridge opened in 1952 the ferryboats were sold to Washington State, sailed through the Panama Canal (First ferryboats to do so, AFAIK) to Seattle."
There's a plaque on the MV Olympic that says it had to sail all the way around Cape Horn, and also that it was built for the City of Baltimore in 1938. There is mention of the trip around Cape Horn in the book "Ferryboats: A Legend on Puget Sound" by M. S. Kline and G. A. Bayless.
As to whether it sailed around Cape Horn or went through the Straits of Magellan, I don't know -- I'm just going by what is mentioned in the book and the plaque on the boat when I sailed on it for all of 45 minutes from Whidbey Island to Port Townsend, WA in 1989. The MV Olympic is now under private ownership and has been out of service since 1993; it is stored at the WSF docks at Eagle Harbor. Reportedly, the owner wants to make it into a floating maritime museum but has not had too much luck in raising funding. (An all too familiar story, unfortunately.)
According to the "Ferryboat" book, it is a diesel direct drive type propulsion system; the way it sounded when I was on it in 1989, it sounded like it had all of one cylinder, with all the chugging it did. It seemed to chug just as much to remain fast to the dock as it did while underway, and it wasn't that fast either.
Oh well, back to subways....isn't that where we are supposed to be?
"Washington State Ferries had a boat (The M.V. Olympic) which was originally built and operated in Baltimore in 1925. In 1958 it sailed all the way around Cape Horn, thence up to the Seattle area, and it was in service until 1994. It is now under private ownership and rests in the WSF yard at Eagle Harbor, WA. The reason it did not
go through the Panama Canal was that it was too wide."
You say it went around Cape Horn. Why didn't it use the Strait of Magellan.
Wayne: The American Legion is still running but she has a permanent port side list. She ran aground off Governors Island once and also rammed the seawall at Battery Park.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Willie Mays turned 50 on that same day.
That's one of the reasons why I'd rather take the subway out to 86th Street in Bklyn and hop the S53 bus after 12AM. I may be spending an extra 30-45 minutes, but the upside is that there is about 2 or 3 all-night delicatessens and 1 newsstand outside the subway station on 4th Ave at 86th. If my train doesn't meet up with the S53, I can grab a bagel and soda and chow down while I'm waiting and it can be done on a free transfer too.
Jeez, the idea of spending an extra hour or 2 waiting for a boat in that hellhole ferry terminal @ Whitehall St. with the skells, crackheads, and pyschos that take up residence there after midnight gives me the willies. I had to do that once while returning home from a U2 concert at Giants Stadium a few years back. It was not fun. Of course if you pitch the idea of having a few cops stationed there to keep an eye on things during the overnights, you'd have both the liberals and the PBA screaming bloody murder.
They do have cops stationed there, but since they're Staten Island cops, they don't give a shit unless a 'statisic' crime is being committed.
-Hank
Yesterday am I rode the PATH to Newark and saw grafiti "PATH Strike in 2000" on two separate posters . Are the PATH operating people unhappy and talking strike or is it just grafiti
Can you tell me a little about the history of subway station 74th street & Roosevelt avenue in jackson Heights Queens.
I heard a second station was supposed to be there. I was at that station a couple of months ago and did not see any evidence of this.......
The station is there. Go upstairs and exit the fare control and walk towardsthe East. Go past the grilled off area and the police station( gate is locked)and you'll go down a long passageway before you come out on the second station's platform.
NOTE: The area is closed to the public and I included the description just as information. DO NOT enter the closed areas- you ill be arrested!
see disused and abandoned stations on this site for a more complete description--this was a phase II or Second System IND item see also Second System on this sit also NY Times article in Nov 96 about an official tour which visited it. e-mail me directly if you want the date of times article
I have a copy of that very article in the Times. It also has a photo of one of the 2nd Ave. line tunnel sections, along with a map of some of the proposed lines.
Recent threads regarding the pros and cons of Systemwide OPTO of transit sytems, subtalkers maybe interested in the following dates that London Underground lines operated fully OPTO from:
26th March 1984 Hammersmith & City Line
22nd October 1984 Circle Line
13th May 1985 East London Line
04th November 1985 District Line
29th September 1986 Metropolitan Line
31st August 1987 Piccadilly Line
28th March 1988 Jubilee Line
2Oth November 1989 Bakerloo Line
20th February 1995 Central Line
(01st April 1994 Waterloo & City Line)
(Victoria Line operates Automatic Train operation since new)
Northern Line STILL CREW OPERATED
.
Regards
Rob :^)
I was in East New York today and I noticed that A service has now been expanded to include weekends. Is this part of a larger plan to reinstate express service on routes where it has been previously canceled? (F-train, 1/9 train, etc)?
I hope so. It's about time, eh?
- Jordan
Beleave me there is no Express service planned for the No. 1/9 Line above 96 Street. The Skip Stop service is not going anytime soon. But if you want to get a Express ride from 96 Street and 145 Street ride the No.1 Line on weekends. There been Contruction almost every weekend with either the Uptown or downtown trains going Express.
A Train service on weekends is part of the increased service on the Brooklyn Fulton Street line to offset the closure of the Williamsburg Bridge to J, M and Z trains the next 5-6 months. I don't know if weekend A express and C local service will continue once the Willy B is open to trains again.
The change on the A and C weekend and evening service is a permanent change.
Makes a good amount of sense to keep the A Weekend Express operational on a permanent basis. Fulton St-Far Rock segment is pretty heavily traveled with the usual walk-in trade from adjoining neighborhoods and toss in patronage from the Lefferts Blvd Branch, the connecting H shuttle to Rock Park, the J and L transfers at east NY and now free transfers from connecting busses from southern Blkyn and SE Queens, it's not uncommon to have a typical A train at SRO conditions on the weeekends these days. Once the beaches open up this summer ithe A will probably get even busier.
Other than the D and Q lines, I think another good candidate for an upgrade in service during the weekends would be the IRT in Brookyn. I really would like to see the #5 extended south of Bowling Green out to Utica Ave during the weekends and during the Midday. As it stands the #4 is pretty maxed out in terms of space when the #5 isn't running to Brooklyn. With the heavy ridership the line has along with connecting traffic to the LIRR depot at Atlantic Ave plus the transfers to the D B N and R in Brooklyn, this should be considered.
Yes and no. Yes, express service is expanding where it can, but there are many areas where at present peak car requirements, track issues, or sometimes community (i.e. local station) issues preclude expresses. In addition to the expansion of evening and institution of weekend Fulton St express (I actually dont believe that this service ever did exist previously, by the way), express service has been expanded on the Flushing line to include middays, and a bit later in the evenings.
The Fulton St. line saw express service only during rush hours prior to 1989, except for the JFK Express. I don't know exactly when it was first implemented, but initially A trains ran express throughout the 50s and early 60s. In 1966 or thereabouts, E trains took over the express service, then in 1973, A trains were once again running express during rush hours. In 1976, the CC took over for the E, then once the R-10s were retired (sob!), the C began running to Brooklyn during weekday midday hours and regular A express service began.
The Fulton St. line is a good example IND foresight, although it's possible it may have been looked upon as IND overbuilding at one time. When ridership increased to the point where regular express service was deemed necessary, implementing it was a straightforward matter.
I just had to comment. There is one part of your statement concerning R-10s retiring before fulltime weekday Brooklyn service began that is incorrect. "C" trains provided full daytime service to Brooklyn starting December of 1988. The R-10s (granted, only the rebuilt R-10s) provided this service until September of 1989. In fact, during the weekends, when the "C" ran from 145 Street to World Trade Center (again beginning 12/88), R-10's were used in this service as well until March of 1989 when weekend "C" service was replaced by R-38s temporarily until the R-30s arrived.
I stand corrected. I must admit I wasn't sure exactly when C trains began running to Brooklyn during midday hours, and whether or not it coincided with the last of the R-10s being retired. Thanks for clarifying that.
Keep dreaming, my friend. It's nice to imagine sometimes.
That A service in Brooklyn: kiss it good bye once the bridge is done. Not something I heard. Just based on knowing how these people operate.
There is a set amount of crews. TA will NOT hire any more, dispite the increased riding. So once the bridge is done, those crews will again be needed on the other lines(J,M) At the present time, there is a need for extra personnel, so the TA did hire. But then through attrition, the numbers will come back down.
Increased service costs. And by their logic, it costs more than what they want to pay. All that increased ridership... they think it's temporary. It's a fluke to them, and they don't wan't to get left holding the bag when ridership drops.
I have to agree.
No matter who complains to who, they will never increase D weekend service or start a "Q" express on weekends. The D is SRO (Standing Room Only) Saturday and Sundays late into the night. Standard answer is there isn't enough ridership to justify weekend express service.
I'll just have to stick to the Yankee Specials on the weekend...
This was first proposed 4 years ago, and did include the alternate F express in Brooklyn. Because of Pataki's cuts, both were canceled, but now the A exp. was now prompted by the Willy B construction. Thanfully, it is said to be permanent.
I would like to know on what service changes are in store for the 63rd St/Queens Blvd Connection what the connection opens in 2001.
1)First, what changes are plan for weekday, weekday evenings, weekends & late night hours.
2)Finally, where will the B train terminate during weekday evenings & weekends after the connection opens.
Please post on subtalk. I would greatly appreciate it.
Sincerely,
Michael
1. No decision has been made.
2. No decision has been made.
Weekday origin-destination surveys were taken during 1998 and are now being evaluated. A final report describing weekday and weekend surveys is due this year.
3. Why are you signing your name as "Michael" when the "Posted by" says your name is John?
David
[I would like to know on what service changes are in store for the 63rd St/Queens Blvd Connection what the connection opens in 2001.
1)First, what changes are plan for weekday, weekday evenings, weekends & late night hours.
2)Finally, where will the B train terminate during weekday evenings & weekends after the connection opens.
Please post on subtalk. I would greatly appreciate it.
Sincerely,
Michael]
I just did a whole thread on this. Scan back a few days.
Oh, and please call me Erik. The title's just a gag.
Spent a good part of Saturday in Philadelphia riding SEPTA. Some observations:
(1) I attempted to buy a $5 daypass at the Frankford Terminal (Bridge/Pratt) sales office. Unfortunately, the clerk had none in stock, even though the sign on the outside clearly listed $5 day passes on sale. He told me to ask the cashier in an adjacent booth what to do. The cashier was a gentlemen and let me on gratis when I told him I woud buy a day pass when I got to Center City, which I indeed did (at the SEPTA museum store). A kudo for SEPTA!
(2) Did a RT (City Hall to Pattison and back) on the Broad Street subway. City Hall with its maroon tiles looks definitely like an IND station. Noticed an obviously unused lower level platform at Pattison - I assume this was built for sports events. Has it ever been used as a station, or is it used to store equipment?
(3) Did a RT (15/Market to 58/Woodland and back) on the #11 subway surface route. Cars are quiet and comfortable despite being 18 years old. The 40th street portal is a great spot for photos.
(4) Returning to Bridge/Pratt, boarded an M-4 Market/Frankford El train at 11th St. At 5th St. we were wrong-railed due to a passenger having a medical problem on the eastbound train ahead of us. Customers were walked over to our train on the westbound platform. We were put back on the EB track at Spring Garden. Nice job of handling an emergency that might have been a bigger problem.
Riding back to Bridge/Pratt, noticed an abandoned rail r.o.w. between Hungtingdon and Somerset Stations. Anyone know what it once was?
Are any "almond joy" cars still running on the Market-Frankford, or are they now all OOS? Saw a few in the yard beyond Bridge/Pratt.
Summary - SEPTA is still a fascinating and unique rail system, typical in that sense of the older US rail operations. M-4 cars performed well and are quiet and comfortable. Ridership on Saturday did not seem to be at the same level as New York - trains were generally empty by New York standards.
The Pattison lower level has been a topic on this service several times. It gets used very infrequently, usually only for big sporting events. I've been in this city all my life, used the subway many times to the stadiums and I've never taken a train into or out of the lower level.
The subway surface K-cars are still very well kept and smooth runners. 40th is a great spot for photos.
The abandoned rail r/w between Huntingdon and Somerset is the ex-Reading line which served Port Richmond. It was up to 12-14 tracks wide at several points at one time not too long ago. A diesel facility was also located a couple of blocks to the east at Frankford Ave. There were several coal yards on the Lehigh Ave side of the tracks which had deliveries by train (from the yards, trucks carried it to homes for heating). Now the line is down to one track and is a poor shadow of itself.
Budd cars (Almond Joys) are still on the property and can usually be found in service during the week. SEPTA has officially noted that all weekend service is provided with M-4's but you can usually find a train of Budds or two on the line then. They are becoming more and more scarce, as about 140 of the 220 M-4's are on the property. I saw 1151-52 in a train on a trip I made last week. SEPTA is now saying that the Budds should be gone by the end of this year.
Weekend ridership is fairly low compared to several years back. The strike of last summer is still hurting a bit. Also, for TransPass users, Regional Rail can be used instead within the City, so many of those in the Far Northeast can avoid the long bus ride to Bridge St and opt for commuter rail instead.
That's how I'm able to do my railtripping.
I did amother trip on Saturday, taking the R2 to Wilmington, and the R3 to West Trenton and the R8 to Fox Chase(@ Fox Chase, I saw the bump blocks and the tracks overgrown with weeds. So sad).
I came home via the El and had a delay at the station when there was a small fire on the tracks(a spark from the third rail ignited some trash).
Perhaps you forgot that the City/County of Philadelphia's population is only about 1.584+ million residents, versus the 7.321 million of New York City. So it stands to reason that Philly's subways are far more likely to be less occupied than their equivalents in NYC.
I don't know.
Given the relative sizes of each system(come on, try comparing NYC's to Philadelphia-c'mon, I dare you:)) it's not unreasonable to think that the trains would have substantially less people.
This city is known to be a ghost town when it's not during sunlight on a weekday. And Philly's population is now in the neighborhood of 1.47 million. Lost 10% since the '90 census.
Are we following Detroit's lead?
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say we're a ghost town or we're getting close to Detroit. Listen to the highway reports on KYW on the weekends - the Schuylkill, I-95, 202, 42, etc are all jammed. I experienced it firsthand this past Saturday with the regatta taking East River (er, Kelly) Drive out of commission, West River closing for recreation, and a mess on the Schuylkill. Since the strike last year, it's only gotten worse. Many discretionary riders have abandoned SEPTA and, at SEPTA's prices, they may not come back. I'm surprised when I find myself on the system on weekends (not a usual occurrence) and I see how empty buses, trains, etc are. There's a message here. You won't find Center City deserted so people are getting there and back somehow. If you try to find a parking space you'll quickly find out how they're travelling.
The Phila region is doing well economically, thank you. Yes, the city itself is purportedly losing population faster than any of its top ten brethren but transportation isn't pushing them out. It could be much better but the level of service is a natural reaction to the level of ridership. In my growing-up days in the late 60's and early 70's I can remember buses with standing loads entering and leaving Center City and el trains packed full of people. With many non-Center City routes on wide (20-30 minute) headways during daylight on Saturdays, is there an incentive to ride? At $1.60 a pop, plus transfers, would you? Of course, ride the subway-surface cars and you'll find lots of patrons, even at late hours. Surprisingly, though, check out the cab stand at 37th & Spruce - Univ of Penna students who want to go to South St (normally a one-seat ride on the 40 bus) are using those cabs well to make the trip in groups and split the cab fare rather than waiting for and riding slow buses. Go figure - when I was a student at the same place, the subway-surface cars (which call right at this intersection) were the way to go, and that was way back when you had to pay for a transfer to the el.
I wonder does SEPTA:
A: Knows about this but can't do anything.
B: Knows about this and doesn't care to do anything
C: Doesn't know at all.
I'm not sure which 'this' is your reference, but in my experiences with SEPTA, I'm sorry to say the answer is most likely B. SEPTA, in my opinion, has unfortunately given up on City Transit and desires to cater to the suburbanites. This is why I made the statement about 'gold plating' on the Regional Rail - there are many opportunities to be creative and constructive on the CTD but don't expect SEPTA to do it. As a customer, I have a hard time accepting this, but the service levels, vehicle conditions, and employee attitude speak volumes.
[Surprisingly, though, check out the cab stand at 37th & Spruce - Univ of Penna students who want to go to South St (normally a one-seat ride on the 40 bus) are using those cabs well to make the trip in groups and split the cab fare rather than waiting for and riding slow buses. Go figure - when I was a student at the same place, the subway-surface cars (which call right at this intersection) were the way to go, and that was way back when you had to pay for a transfer to the el.]
Bob, that's the difference between our generation and their generation. It is four generations of car culture. If you can't own a care, take a cab. What is a streetcar anyway?
-Jim K.
Chicago
I often find myself at the alma mater and, even though it's only a generation, the difference seems like more than that. I'll be celebrating 20 years out of there in a couple of days and the place is very different from when I was there in many ways. Of course, when I visit, I STILL use the subway-surface cars!
What is a streetcar anyway?
Interestingly enough, that was the same reaction I had from some of the younger members of my team when I told them I was taking off early to attend the National Trolley Meet a couple of weekends ago. They are all too typical of the current crop of computer professionals - good programmers raised on mass media with no sense of history, ethics, or knowledge of English grammar, and who don't care about anything that doesn't directly affect the amount of money they have to spend.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I take slight offense at that, after all there are a lot of computer professionals that don't fit into that pigeonhole. I bet not too many people here know what I majored in or what I do for a living now, for example.]
And given the recent "light rail" trend, I can understand the lack of understanding of the word "streetcar" -- most light rail systems are eliminating street running and only a few cities have traditional streetcars/trolleys nowadays. I think most people would have a concept of what light rail is and be able to identify from a lineup of train types which one is the light rail car.
Ah, but I have a good one for you folks ...
I went to a DOT/TA meeting in December and took mass transit from College Point to it in lower Manhattan.
I arrived a few minutes late and apologized that I was delayed waiting for a Slant 40 ... they looked at me like I had two heads. I didn't elaborate.
Mr t__:^)
I'd tell them I was delayed waiting for an R-38.
Anyway, I could think of a few more items which would raise a similar question from today's younger generation:
What's an LP?
What's a turntable/record player?
What's an 8-track?
What's a rotary telephone?
What's a typewriter?
"What's an LP?
What's a turntable/record player?
What's an 8-track?
What's a rotary telephone?
What's a typewriter?"
The difference between the above and a streetcar is that all of the above have been superseded by superior technology (the CD, the push-button phone, the computer and printer) while the streetcar still serves a vital purpose and is still used every day, only now we call it "light rail". (^: They still build streetcars, while nobody builds any of the above (or not in significant mass-production numbers anyway).
Besides, so what if people born who grew up in the 1980s or later aren't familiar with outdated technology? It's not the same thing at all as the oft-repeated "schoolchildren today think Alaska is in Asia" or "only two out of ten could name a Supreme Court justice" pseudo-statisitics. YOUR parents or grandparents could have gotten the same types of questions from your generation with:
"What's a starter crank?"
"What's a gramophone?"
"What's a Morse key?"
"What's a fountain pen?"
You're right. My father, to this day, still says (in Lithuanian), "Unhook the door" when he means "Unlock the door". He grew up on a farm and I know what he means, so I leave it be.
I also had a college professor, who wasn't exactly a senior citizen back then, who referred to a pen as a quill.
Then there's the running board and the spittoon.
As for light rail vehicles, I don't feel they're referred to as such because of their weight. Our LRVs in Denver weigh in at 40 tons apiece. That's New York subway car weight. There have been motorists who thought they had a chance going one-on-one with an LRV. Guess who won.
Ha ha
Just like the BMW i saw around a year ago. Some people think that because they have a fancy car, they are god. He figured if he floored it he could beat the Breda LRV I was riding on around a corner. He didn't. He ended up w/ a BMW sandwich, shoved off the street, onto the sidewalk like a big expensive hockey puck. The Breda didn't even notice.
Thank god no one was hurt; because that would have turned it from a really comical scene into a pointless tragedy.
Sounds like a variation on the BMT standard vs R-16 incident.
We haven't had any recent collisions between LRVs and motor vehicles in Denver, probably because motorists have gotten used to dealing with LRVs. An inebriated pedestrian was hit downtown a year or two ago.
New Orleans doesn't have LRV's ,it doesn't even have trolleys, but it is fortunate to have streetcars!
Yes, New Orleans has trolleys. But, the New Orleans trolleys are streetcars. The word 'trolley' derives from the word 'troller' which is the wheel device used to pick up the electricity on early electric streetcars. Today, the term 'trolley' is generally used to mean electic-powered, mass-transit vehicles, that use overhead collection. That's why the rubber-tired vehicles are called 'trackless trolleys.' There have been variations, of course; some of New York City's trolleys used an underground collection device in a slot in the center of the tracks so there would be no overhead wires. And most trolleys today use poles/shoes or pantographs.
But still, New Orleans' streetcars are trolleys. If you'd like to ride in one without going south, come on up to Seashore. One of the gems of our collection is NOPSI #966.
I rode on the St. Charles line while in New Orleans in 1994. Also rode on the Riverfront Trolley. Is it true that the Riverfront line is or will be regauged from standard gauge to match the 5' 2-1/2" St. Charles gauge?
It seems that in New York, the term Trolley was used almost exclusively in Brooklyn and perhaps Queens. Stopping locations were marked as Trolley Stations. My 1950s Shell map of New York City uses the term Streetcar.
When I was growing up in New York in the 1960s, my relatives and neighbors always referred to the by-then-vanished vehicles in the Bronx and Manhattan as trolleys, never streetcars. This included the conduit cars as well as the ones with poles.
Q. Is it true that the Riverfront line is or will be regauged from standard gauge to match the 5' 2-1/2" St. Charles gauge?
A. In New Orleans "trolleys" are referred to as streetcars by the natives. The Riverfront line has been regauged to 5' 2-1/2". To access the only streetcar maintenance and indoor strorage facility, Carrolton car barn, a 1/2 mile segment of double track non revenue trackage has been laid in the median of Canal Street connecting the riverfront line at the foot of Canal Street with the St. Charles line. This trackage is supposed to continue about 3 miles up Canal Street. This proposed trackage could be referred to as the 2nd Avenue subway of New Orleans because of the delays in starting construction. By the way a car barn is referred to as a "station" in New Orleans but it is not a place where passengers can board. A boarding area is a "carstop".
Thanks for the info!
I drove by the Carrolton car barn when I was there. The wide gauge looks strange if you're not used to seeing it.
[I drove by the Carrolton car barn when I was there. The wide gauge looks strange if you're not used to seeing it.]
I grew up in Philadelphia. Wide gauge doesn't look strange to me.
Jim K.
Chicago
Philadelphia used the same gauge as New Orleans. Or is it a quarter-inch less? In any case, it's certainly understandable, because you were used to seeing it.
Railroad trackage in Lithuania still seems strange to me even after having been there four times. Their railroads still use the 5-foot Russian gauge. I would think there may be some standard gauge lines put down eventually, especially if they're coming in from western Europe.
Manhattan did not technically have trolley as the current collection was in the center, below the ground, "third rail". Therefore the Shell map was correct to say "Streetcar" The outer boros used an overhead current collection system. The arm sticking up in the air is called a "trolley" hence the correct term for these cars.
The "trollybus" that runs in places like the French Quarters in New Orleans are REPLICAS of trolleys/streetcars. The tourists today can't tell the difference, even some transit agencies can't. Case in point. The annual METRO Magazine transit survey did not make it clear, but a city, such as El Paso, reported back to Metro Magazine they have three trolleybuses (in the same row as in SEPTA, MBTA, MUNI, etc), and without checking the facts, reported the findings in their survey. I wrote a nasty letter back to Metro Magazine about these "trolleybuses" and now Metro Magazine uses the word "Trolley Replicas" in their survey. At the same time some agencies west of the Rockies got the term coach and bus mixed up. Long Beach reports zero buses, but x number of coaches. Metro Magazine meant that coaches are the over the road MCI/Eagel ones and bus are the transit ones. Long Beach don't have buses, they have coaches.
Well enough of my venting. Now If I can only get the public here in the east to stop calling the cable cars of San Francisco, "Trolleys".
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
I have ridden a few of those bogus trolley buses. They run at Woodbury Commons and several other places. The manufacturer is the Molly Corporation and they refer to them as "Motorized Trolley Buses."
Larry,Redbird R33
Ooohhhh, that's a sore spot in San Francisco! I remember seeing a statement to that effect on a cable car guide in 1981. It said, in no uncertain terms:
DON'T CALL THEM TROLLEYS!
Todd...it's a big dialect thing. Someone from McKinney Ave Transit
(a historic operation in Texas) said "the streetcar is what's on
the tracks, the trolley is what's over it". I.e. "trolley" refers
only to the overhead collection system. Back east, "streetcar"
seems to refer generically to any street-running railway, be it
horse-drawn, cable, conduit or "trolley".
The "troller" Todd refers to was an unsuccessful technology that
used a little cart that rolled on top of the wire and was attached
to the car with a pair of wires, rather than the rigid, under-running
trolley pole and wheel/shoe arrangement of today. A big troller
problem was that when it dewired, it tended to come down!
Interesting thread here:
In Dayton OH "Trolley" means a Trolleybus or Trackless Trolley
Then there are those vehicles which are really buses dolled up to look like a SF Cable Car which also are referred to as trolleys.
As I see it:
Car by it self is an automobile or a single piece of rail equipment of any type.
Bus (short for omnibus: for all) is a piece of transit equipment which does not run on rails.
Streetcar is a piece of rail equipment that operated in or adjacent to the street.
A Trolley Car is a streetcar which gets its power from overhead electric wires.
A Cable Car is a streetcar which gets dragged around by a cable under the surface of the road.
A Horse Car is a streetcar which gets dragged around by one or more horses.
A Trolley is a device for getting the electric power from the overhead wire.
A Trolley Bus or Trackless Trolley is a bus which is powered by electricity taken from overhead wires.
A Replica Cable Car Body on a Truck Chassis is none of the above.
Then there is the term "Train" ...
Also, what does "light rail" mean, if anything?
For example, people in Philadelphia usually refer to their vehicles as "trolleys", while in Baltimore I've heard them called "light rail" or "trains."
The San Diego Trolley would fit your definition of trolley because it does have some street running. But is the St. Louis system also a trolley? Some people have said that light rail is defined by the fact that the vehicles are capable of street running, even if a particular system doesn't use them that way. Thus St. Louis is light rail because its cars are, by design, streetcars. (The extension to Clayton will use street running, and the existing cars can operate on the new route.) Vancouver isn't really light rail because the Skytrain cars have to be grade separated.
What, then, is the Norristown line?
The term "light rail" refers to a system that is, in effect, a cross between the old streetcar lines of yesteryear and the heavy-rail rapid transit found in some North American and many European/Asian cities. LRV's are in essence a modernised form of the old streetcar/trolley. The main thing about light rail transit is that it's cheaper to build than an equivalent heavy rail system. LRT can be built to run on streets (like the old streetcars), in underground subways (or a combination of street-level and subway, as has been done in Buffalo, New York, as well as in the California cities of San Francisco and Los Angeles), or on elevated structures.
[What, then, is the Norristown line?]
The P&W? It is a grade-seperated, third-rail, high-level platform line that really never fit into a typical category.
Jim K.
Chicago
Back in the 1960's when trolleys were just managing to hold on(there were only ten cities in the US and Canada that still had them) we use to say that there were two "Interurbans" left. These were the Norristown Line and the Chicago,South Shore and South Bend.
The Noristown Line did run between two cities,Philadelphia and Norristown and was also used at one time by the "Liberty Bell Limited" of the Lehigh Valley Rapid Tansit. There have been recent efforts to classify this as a light rail line but it stubbornly refuses to fit either into the light rail or rapid transit catergories.
The South Shore did run freight trains as a Class I railroad should but the passenger operations included street running in Michigan City . I believe there is still street running even with the new cars though this line probably leans more toward the railroad side.
How do the Illinois and Indiana folks refer to this line?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually, the Norristown cars couldn't operate in the street, so they wouldn't fit on the light rail side of the definition. Mainly this is because they operate from a third rail. It is interesting to note that the Norristown line once used some Electroliners, which had trolley poles before they came to Pennsylvania. I believe the Electroliners did use street running to enter Milwaukee.
Yes, they did. They used third rail on the 'L' and trolley pole operation the remainder of the way to Milwaukee, both on the private right-of-way and in the street.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The P&W is a very unique operation. I consider it to be a rapid transit operation since it is high platform, grade separated and third rail powered. The operation of Lehigh Valley Transit cars over the route until 1953? corresponds to the North Shore's use of the Chicago El, and the use of the Electroliners and later Chicago El Cars supports this approach.
In Seashore's roster, I list Seashore's three Bullets with the Rapid Transit cars for this reason. I take heat from some "purists" over this, but nobody has yet made a convincing argument for "Interurban".
Interestingly, there is more reason to classify Chicago's Skokie line as an interurban since it was solely operated by the North Shore for most of its service history. The Chicago Elevated (common ownership) did operate some service to Niles Center in the early years, but through the 30s, 40s and 50s NSL was the sole operator. Even in the reincarnation as part of CTA, the line has maintained a distinct fleet from the rest of the system, due to trolley operation on the outer end.
The South Shore, my old buddy, is considered the last remaining interurban. There is still street running through Michigan City. At one time, there was also street running in East Chicago, where the line traces its original roots to, and South Bend, which I vivdly remember.
Street running through East Chicago came to an end with the opening of the East Chicago Bypass in 1956, which coincided with the dedication of the Indiana Toll Road. I was born two months after all of this occurred; the Toll Road and I are the same age!
Trains continued running down LaSalle Ave. to the station in downtown South Bend until July of 1970, when the line was cut back to the western outskirts by the Bendix plant. The line now terminates at Michiana Regional Airport.
Rolling stock has always used pantographs for current collection, even in the early days of 6600-volt AC operation. The line was converted to 1500-volt DC operation in 1926, when it was through-routed to Randolph St. via Illinois Central trackage.
"New Orleans doesn't have LRV's ,it doesn't even have trolleys, but it is fortunate to have streetcars!"
It's also fortunate to have not only streetcars, but A Streetcar Named Desire.
Wasn't the Desire line changed to a bus in the 1940s or the early 1950s? Imagine a play entitled "A Diesel Bus Named Desire"--ugh.
Now there are only St. Charles and Riverfront; Riverfront is a "modern" line built along the railroad right-of-way close to the waterfront. Last summer I tried to get a late-evening ride on the connector from the Riverfront up to St. Charles by publicly acknowledging my railfan status, but it didn't work.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
The Portland Ore transit system uses " trolleys " only with pantagraphs,which looks funny on the old style trolleys which dont run the entire line,as the Lrv cars have pantagraphs they look as if they belong there,also Portland did have dual gauge trackage,in fact some is coming through the blacktop in some areas,
There were places in Los Angeles which had dual gauge trackage. These were spots where Pacific Electric's standard gauge interurbans shared the street with LARY's narrow (3' 6") gauge streetcars.
Interestingly enough, Denver Tramways used the same narrow gauge for its streetcars as did Los Angeles. Our light rail line has standard gauge track. Construction update: the station platform for the Downtown Littleton stop is in place, and the trackways, or spaces for tracks, are visible. I don't know for sure how much track has been put down on the extension, possibly as far as Mississippi Ave., as the only vantage point is the Broadway bridge which carries I-25 over the Rio Grande and Santa Fe tracks, as well as the existing light rail line, and you have to look fast while doing 55 mph. All bridges are in place, with only the north approach to the crossover flyover remaining to be built. This is where the light rail line trades places with the ATSF and Rio Grande tracks. Track relocation is under way.
John, did you know that LRV are not light and are heavier than a heavy rail vehicle. What a stupid name for a street car.
Pigeonholes are rather nasty ways of grouping things - after all, they tend to fill up with pigeon poop.
Far too many of the younger folks have no sense of ethics, history, English grammar, or anything that does not affect the amount of money they can spend on instant gratification. After all, most of them have been raised by television and video games - emphasis deliberate - rather than by their parents. Many of the members of my generation have abdicated their responsibilities as parents, either in pursuit of the almighty dollar or because the children are simply the unwanted byproduct of a few minutes of fleeting pleasure, completely abandoned by one or both parents and effectively abandoned even by the one who may be physically present while the child is growing up. At no other time in the history of civilization has a society abandoned its children - its future - pushing them out into the world without any significant parental influence. Even the "dumb" animals ensure that their young are taught the rules of behavior required to survive and be accepted in their society. How many of our children know how to properly behave in ours - and of those, how many had to learn it from someone other than their parents?
OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is there a document on the controls of a standards subway train and how they work?
What's a "standard subway train"? Do you mean a train of AB standards?
Actually, I meant standard. As in common to all. In general.
I thought there was an online tutorial on this somwhere on
the nycsubway.org site, but I can't locate it. David?
The TA has a series of training manuals on brakes, propulsion
and doors which all together comprise about 200 pages.
If you have a specific question, there are a number of posters
to this discussion group who could answer it, myself included.
Due to Boro Hall situation some 2 trains are running to New Lots. If you want pics let me know.....
[Due to Boro Hall situation some 2 trains are running to New Lots.]
What "situation" is that?
You mean the smoke condition this morning?
Yep, thats probably right since i was in the middle of this confudsion at Utica Av. this morning the platform was crowded to a point that you could have fell off ( which almost happend to me a couple of times) They even let riders stanbd and watch as all ther 4 and 5 trains bypassed them (stacked)this was getting very dangerous for every one's saftey since the station was deadly overcrowded and I mean deadly yet there is no explaination why there was nothing done to ease the congestion at all. read Chaos at Utica IRT too
I understand your point, but please realize that Utica Ave. was not the only station with dangerous crowd conditions. So were all the other stations as well. By having a couple of trains bypass the station, they could pick up passengers a few stops down the line when service resumed and you would have another train at Utica for you to get on. Plus, if the trains didn't bypass you: when your train got going there would be no way for Utica Ave. passengers and passengers all down the line to get on that first train after the interruption ended. In the long run, by having a few trains bypass, the railroad would get back to normal sooner.
I saw the TA do this on the local Broadway line too. 116th was a very busy station, typically after a problem I would see one or two trains pass right by, then if we were lucky the following train was empty & the crowd at 116th would fill it up. Also one of the first trains, maybe ours, would go express at 96th. The first time it happened I mumbled a lot under my breath, but I got to understand what they were trying to do & didn't mind quite so much.
Mr t__:^)
Some #2 trains terminate at New Lots after the AM rush to lay up rather than have to go all the way uptown. Of course, the reason being no storage area at or near Flatbush/Nostrand.
In all my life I have never seen such disregard for transit riders at Utica Av. I dont't know what the hell was going on this morning at Utica Ave today. There was a smoke problem at Borough Hall sattion and this screwed up the 2,3,4and 5 trains today. The "genius" at Utica decides to allow all 4 and 5 trains to not open their doors to allow passengers on instead leave the station (my guess to start at Atlantic Ave to cater to the riders at that point). What is really disgusting about this was the scene at Utica. It was only two Weeks ago where there an incident of a man being pushed on to the tracks in front of an on coming train. I cannot count howmany times i was almost pushed unintentionally, but this was ridiculous. There was no standing room at the station peoplecrowding the stairs and police officers lying saying there was a minor disruption in service. I don't call this a minor diruption but a serious saftey hazzard that took place. Just to get a couple of trains out of Utica at the expense of tax paying citizens. The dispactcher should be held accountable for their actions
If a train bypasses a station, any station, it is considered an ABD or abandoned interval. The transit authority does not have any disregard for passengers on the Lexington Avenue service as you have the best in the system. You were the first to get R-62s, you have better than 4 minute headways with express service as early as 5:30 in the morning. Even your oldest cars have air-conditioning. Whats your point? The dispatcher does not take it on himself to bypass your station and risk a suspension. A train operator is least likely to bypass a terminal without a conductor pulling the cord. Don't "guess" then blame the workers as they are tax paying citizens too. By the way why is it rediculous for a man to get pushed in front of a train? Whats your opinion? We'd like to forget. Post to a site when you have a point
My sister was telling me about the situation this morning. She said that 4 and 5 trains were bypassing the station and started at Atlantic or Franklin. When a train pulled into te station the dispatcher would say "Operator Key By" and do not open the doors. The third trai they let people on......
Sorry for one more OPTO question.
Was the rule book changed in anyway to allow OPTO?
All I can remember is the Conductor Rule 97(b) at the end it meantions T/O (** are mine to point it out):
"Conductors who are assigned to revenue train service have charge of trains and are responsible for the saftey, regularity and proper care and conditon of trains and such orders as they may give, not conflicting with the rules and regulations or special instructions, must be obeyed. **Where Conductors are not assigned to revenue train servie, Train Operators will be in complete charge of their trains."**
I'm no expert on this subject, Harry is. But I do believe you are correct.
Funny you should point out that particular rule, It's my favorite. Unfortunately, most Train Operators need to be reminded of it! Motormen know better.
That rule (conductor in charge of train)was superceded by both a bulletin superceding transfer moves which has to put someone in charge of a train and also an opto guideline bulletin shifting the responsibility of door operation from the conductor to the T/O. Although all employees have a book of rules they are superceded regularly by bulletins so what you read in your rules may not be in effect or greatly modified.
Is there still a T&M being published? Does anyone have a subscription that is active and being currently fulfilled?
I picked up a back issue at the Seashore Trolley Museum yesterday in their well-stocked gift shop...one of the best things about going there. It was dated 1996 and was issue #226.
I know Vane Jones' daughter was publishing T&M sporadically after the death of his son, who had taken it over for a while after Vane's death. Does she still put it out?
From what I saw of #226 it was pretty slim, and contained a request from the publisher for more articles sent immediately in order to fill up the magazine's next issue. There were also a few back issues of Electric Lines on sale for $3 a pop.
I have never been to the NYC Subway Museum in Brooklyn, the one that is closing (or will close) for renovations. What sorts of things can you buy in their gift shop...is it strictly NYC related or do they stock books, videos, postcards from other cities? Is the entrance to the museum strictly from the subway, or can you enter directly from the street? Is the museum interesting/worth the time to visit?
Thanks for guidance in all the above questions.
The Museum is definately worth the visit. It is located in a former subway station, Court Street, in Brooklyn Heights. This station was never a through station; rather, it operated from 1936 to 1946 as a one-stop shuttle from Hoyt-Schermerhorn station just a couple of blocks away. Access is from the street only, at the corner of Schermerhorn Street and Boerum Place. The gift shop is essentially 100% NYC (ignoring the kiddie junk) but does have some nice items. And the collection is top-notch.
They have a web page, New York Transit Museum, that you might want to check out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Had the winds of time blown differently; i. e., had the Depression not hit, Court St. would, in fact, have been a through station, linking up with the WTC terminal tracks with the 2nd Ave. line branching off at the tip of Manhattan.
Go one block south down Court St., to Atlantic Ave., and you'll be directly above the railroad tunnel you may have heard about.
Correct. Another line that would serve the city well today.
I've been down in the Atlantic Avenue tunnel on the recent tour and posted about it here at some length - quite an experience.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The NY Transit Museum gift shop has a lot to learn from those of the other regional transit/rr museums (Seashore, Shore Line, Baltimore, B&O, etc). Mostly subway-related paraphenalia. The book selection is sporadic and many times the "usual suspects" are out of stock. They do carry a lot of items unique to their gift shop, however. You won't find back issues of magazines, rare books, items from other cities, etc.
Also, you can't enter the museum from the subway at all-- you can only enter from the street. Closest station is the 2/3/4/5 Borough Hall station.
-Dave
I believe I was at this station a few years ago. I was going to Manhattan on the R. I forget what street I entered, yet when I came down the stairs, I had to walk a bit to the token booth. Yet what was interesting is that it was not just a regular passageway. It was a thin walkway on the platform, that was made up of a tile wall on my right and a wall on my left made up of iron bars. You can just stand there like you are on the platform, yet you could not enter until you walked to the booth. Is this the station? I found it odd, becuase I have never seen another like this.
Were you on the Ave of Americas ? If so, that walk way between 34 & 42 has been closed.
No, he's talking about 36 Street on the Queens Blvd. line. (That station's on Northern Blvd. though)
AFAIK, it's the only station on the system where the back all of the local platform is not in the fare control area. I would guess the original plan was to have token booths and turnstiles at both entrances, but I don't know how long 36th St. has had that configuration (which isn't the same on the Contiental Ave.-bound platform)
On the Manhattan-bound side, between the east and west ends of the station. It allows two entrances with only one token booth.
Russ,
The 79th St. station on the (1)(9) has a similar arrangement, although there is a break in the wall containing an old exit-only iron maiden.
Bob Sklar
The City of New York DOT should drop the entire span of the Willy B. into the East River and let the fish build a coral reef. A new span should be installed with better and materials. Enough with fixing this rust bucket with patches.
The same could be done the Manhattan Bridge. When the Manhattan Bridge was resignaled in the 1960's, some of the cast iron signal cases were thrown into the East River. Now the river is signaled, HA, HA!!!
Actually, they should tear down both structures and build a lower-profile, non-suspension bridge (draw bridge or swing-type) like the Marine Park bridge (aka Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge) so that it will not require the height and intricate support structure neccessary to sustain a taller bridge. Besides, the east river doesn't have the same boat traffic loads as it did decades ago. Nowadays there are only a few sight-seeing cruisers, party boats & ferries and an occasional garbage scow or the larger DEP ship that regularly use the East River.
It would also be less work for the trains going across since the span would have less of a steep grade to deal with.
Any thoughts out there in cyberland?
Doug aka BMTman
Even though there is little traffic, the East River is required to allow warships to pass, thus a high bridge.
When the heck are we gonna be at war with anybody right here in the Freggin' East River, for God's sake...(I know we used to have some bad gang-warfare up in the Bronx, but I doubt it needed real heavy gunships ;-)
I think they need the East River as a way to get from places like the Brooklyn Navy Yard, Fort Wadsworth S.I. etc. out to Long Island Sound and so to sea, though in this era of relative peace, I don't see much need for warships &c.
Wayne
>...though in this era of relative peace, I don't see much need for warships &c. <
But "just in case" we ever need to go to war, the access is needed... same reason we keep a standing army...
Mike
There is a National Security Issue here. The Brooklyn Navy Yard still functions as a shipyard to a limited degree, also the Navy maintains a Fast Sealift Ship at Bayonne which could use the East River if the Narrows were blocked by enemy action. Don't forget that during World War II German U-Boats sank merchant vessel right off Coney Island.
Larry,RedbirdR33
True, but nowadays, Military supremacy is pretty much determined by Air Force power, not so much Naval forces. Ever since WW II, the Air Forces of the world play more of a role than do Naval strategies.
And as for the Brooklyn Navy Yard -- it's ship building days are a thing of the past. Did anyone hear the news about Robert DeNiro being instrumental in obtaining the Navy Yard for usage as a "Hollywood East"? When completed by 2002, the Brooklyn Navy Yard will be a formidable rival for the movie studios of La La land (and supposedly this studio will employ large numbers of local area residents -- we'll have to wait and see about that).
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: While air power can accomplish tremendous things it needs a sucure base to operate from be it a naval aircraft carrier or an airbase in a friendly nation or one on enemy territory secured by ground forces. In any event an infrastructure must be maintained to support these operations and this can only be accomplished in the long term by supply from a merchant fleet escorted by the navy.
I think the work on the Willy B is not entirely uncalled for as the bridge is 95 years old and at that time in life we all could use a little face lift. The MannyB (How's that for a nicename''') is in much more serious trouble due both to many years of municipal neglect and poor design structure to begin with. I think they should start planning a replacement bridge or tunnel now.
If you would like to discuss the military side of this further please e-mail me as I fear we would be getting off topic.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hmmm.. MannyB has a nice ring to it. I don't know about Willy & Manny, though.
They should pry Hell Gate Bridge loose, tow it downstream, and set it between the two suspension bridges. It's stronger than the two of them combined.
While it's ship BUILDING days are long over, it still works as an overhaul and refit yard for merchant ships.
-Hank
[Actually, they should tear down both structures and build a lower-profile, non-suspension bridge (draw bridge or
swing-type) like the Marine Park bridge (aka Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge) so that it will not require the height and intricate support structure neccessary to sustain a taller bridge. Besides, the east river doesn't have the same boat traffic loads as it did decades ago. Nowadays there are only a few sight-seeing cruisers, party boats & ferries and an occasional garbage scow or the larger DEP ship that regularly use the East River.]
Bridge clearance would have to be high enough to allow barges to pass without having to open the draw. As there is extensive barge traffic on the East River, opening the draw for each barge surely would jam up train and road traffic on the bridge.
You don't want to permanently foreclose on the option of reviving river traffic in NYC. The feds would never go for it anyway. Anyone know what the minimum required clearance above MHW (mean high water) actually is?
For the subways, the best replacements are tunnels, not lower bridges.
All the bridges below Hell Gate clear at least 133 above MHW while those above going to the Long Island Sound clear at least 142' above MHW. I don't know about the Hell Gate Bridge itself but I would guess about 135. For many years lagre naval vessel built at the Brooklyn Navy Yard had collapsible (or hinged) masts for passing under the Manny B and Brookyn Bridges.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Robert Caro's book on Robert Moses has a detailed section on how the military rights to navigate the East River were used to kill Moses' plans for a `Brooklyn Battery Bridge' back in the late 1930s. If that was still the case the Secretary of Defense and the President would still have veto power over any low water crossing of the East River.
(The bridge was vetoed due to politics, and Moses correctly pointed out there were already six East River Bridge crossings in 1939, but the look of lower Manhattan is still better off because FDR forced him to build a tunnel)
I don't think the traffic on either side of the river could stand to be delayed by a lift bridge.
-Hank
Hank: There are several factors against a draw bridge on the lower East River. The bridge would have to be manned on an around the clock basis as it is very near the FDNY's Marine Co No 6 in the Brooklyn Navy Yard and the most likely area of response for that company would be down the river into the upper bay. Also there is the swiftness of the current given that the East River is a tidal strait. To see this just stand on Roosevelt Island and watch the boats going by in the west channel. If a ship had to stop to wait for the drawbridge to open it would probably have to use its engines to maintain a stationary position. The only draws currently on the East River are the Roosevelt Island Bridge over the normally unused east channel and the Wards Island Foot Bridge which has a clearance of 55' above MHW when lowered. This is sufficient at that point because most of the larger river traffic doesn't come above Newtown Creek or Long Island City.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for the heavy-duty info, Redbird. Food for thought...
Doug aka BMTman
This is a change in your attitude Dave. I find it refreshing! But you and I both know what should be done and what will actually happen are two widely divergent things.
I always felt the two structures provided NY with some class, and are actually quite plesant to cross. Logic would suggest that river tubes be constructed, but we know that's not happening either.
But it would make a great show, if they did blow 'em up!
I hope they would line up 20 or so R68's for a stress test, like last time the Willie B closed. Then it shoud fall! Two eye sores in one shot! That's funny! Hah AHa AH ahaha ha hahahahahhah ha ha!!
Nah, they should load it up with a bunch of R-44s. Get rid of those junkers....Better yet, borrow the a few dozen LIRR M-1s...
This reminds me of a National Lampoon spoof ("Not the New York Times") published in the late '70s where the headline read something like "Queensboro Bridge falls down: Weight of runners pounding the deck during the NYC Marathon causes bridge collapse". The "article" even had a picture of the main span in the East River!
--Mark
Mark: This is something which has been consistently overlooked in the popular press. Subjecting the 59 St Bridge to the remoreless pounding of 50,000 feet is unconscionable. At the very least the runners should be made to swim from Staten Island to Brooklyn. This would separate the men from the boys and have the double effect of thinning the field. Alternatively we could have the runners board an N train of R-68's at 95 St in Brooklyn and ride to Lexington Av in Manhattan.
Of course this would make the race about three days long.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey, why not make it the NYC Biathlon? Never mind the biking part the way they do it in Hawaii.
Remember Rosie Ruiz in 1980? She entered the NYC marathon and ended up taking the subway for part of the way. And the train didn't break down! She pulled another stunt in Boston, literally coming out of nowhere a few hundred yards from the finish line, pretending to be all out of breath. She insisted she ran the entire race, but was proven otherwise.
It would also cure the problem of access to Staten Island for 12 hours that day...
-Hank
Alternatively we could have the runners board an N train of R-68's at 95 St in Brooklyn and ride to Lexington Av in Manhattan. Of course this would make the race about three days long.
Not if they PUSHED! :)
--Mark
That's my line! Just kidding.
Needless to say, the R-32s and slant R-40s would get the job done quicker - you would think.
I have that very same copy somewhere. It also had a story of the Pope dying yet again, 34 minutes after assuming the Papacy. Keep in mind this came out in 1978, right after John Paul II was elected Pope. John Paul I died after something like 34 days as Pope.
They should throw in some R-44s for good measure. That would be even better. If the R-16s were still around...
BOMBS AWAY!! GERONIMOOOOOO!!
After all the clean-up effort involved in the past 25 years, dumping a bunch of R-44s and R-68s in th East River would surely bring down the wrath of the EPA on New York's heads.
And considering the nature of those trains, their removal from the river would probably go extremely slow.
I can't help but think of a variation of an old joke:
"Motorman, does this train stop at the river?"
"If it doesn't, there'll be one helluva splash."
Har-de-har-har.
I wonder if an R-44 or R-68 would make a good coral reef in Florida.
How's this for a solution?
If I recall, the new 63rd street tunnel was made from prefab sections lowered into place. I say they drag these pieces downstream to replace the Willy B and forget the other project all together.
Bill
Great idea. Drop the Willy B. tracks and structure into the East River and place the track under the river in tubes. Hire CDI (Controlled Demolitan Inc. to implode the tracks and structure into the East River and it can be used to celebrate the year 2000.
The Manhattan is a nature for this since both ends of the bridge tracks going into tunnel portals on the Manhattan and Brooklyn ends of the bridge.
It was reported that the word "Acela" sounds like the Italian word "ascella", which means armpit.
Interesting though, isn't it.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
You'd think these companies would learn! How well do you think the Chevy Nova sold in Spanish-speaking countries where the definition of "no va" means "doesn't go"??
--Mark
Very. They changed the name after a redesign. According to several sources, the original Nova sold 'better than average'. While it's frequently cited as an example of how to do your research before you market a product, it's nothing but another urban legend.
-Hank :)
-Mr Nitpick
Our company introduced a product not too long ago which they were going to name Corex. The joke was that customers would call about Cruex, which we all know is for something else. There were other ramifications which resulted in coming up with a different name for that product.
Our R-series line is catching on, BTW. No plans for an R10 or R12 model yet, though. I'm holding my breath on that one.
Both the Lexington Avenue subway and the PATH have a very unusal odor in the in the tunnels. Where does the odor came from?
Thanks for the great picture of the group at the station. Now I call tell who's who and writes all this great stuff on subtalk. I seem to have one more name than faces in the desciption. Am I counting wrong? Help !!!
Chuck Greene
You are right. There seems to be one more name than face (even counting Dave as behind the camera). Several Sub Talk members did not get off with the group at Marcy Avenue after we crossed the Willy B; they continued on the train we were on. Perhaps one of those names inadvertantly got on Dave's picture caption. I'm sure Dave will try to straighten it out if he gets appropriate input from those whose names are listed.
I just put up a small thumbnail identifying people although I screwed up the order of the names in the process. Let me know. If you don't want your face identified by number, you can let me know that too although process of elimination might make that moot... Check it out...
-Dave
I'm number 4, not number 6!
OOps :) Sorry, told you I screwed them up doing the numbering... Names to faces has never been my strong suit..
I'm #5.
Riding daily New York City Subway, my hungry eye frames the constant pulse of a humanity in transit in this theater of long tunnels, where drama and comedy intersect.To rewiew the documentary please contact by E-mail.
I'd appreciate a word from someone who knows: In a piece of fiction I'm doing, I refer to the old Erie-Lackawanna line that ran through my old neighborhood in Newark (Roseville). I recall that it branched off northward or northwestward at the station there. Am I correct in refering to it as the Erie Lackawanna, and what would that branch be correctly called? Thanks for any help.
The line was originally the Delaware, Lackawanna, and Western (DL&W). The route that went west through the Oranges to Morristown was the DL&W Main Line; the line veering to the northwest was the Montclair Branch. In 1960 with the merger of the DL&W and Erie RRs, the name became Erie-Lackawanna. In 1976 the EL became part of Conrail; today both routes are part of the NJ Transit network. The old DL&W Main Line is now NJ Transit's Morristown Line; its Penn Station NY service is called Midtown Direct.
I would also like to mention that the Roseville Avenue station was closed a number of years ago. The platforms are still visible from passing trains.
The Erie Lackawanna went through where I used to live, Pequannock Township. The old Pompton Plains depot is still there, as of 1995, although passenger service ended long before we moved there. Freight trains still used the line back then. The single track has since been torn up.
I thought that mass transit was supposed to have the ultimate goal of providing safe reliable transportation at low cost. The MTA is now a business willing to forgo safety, innovation, renovation and passenger comfort for the dirty green cash. First it was Healthcare that got money crazy now its the MTA. whats next churches?
Man, someone else who understands what I've been saying!
Thank you, I love you!!!!!
What every one seems to be forgetting here, is that CBTC is new and different. It's NOT the typical ASC or ATC cab signal system found in other places.
It goes BOTH ways. Information from the train regarding speed, passenger load, originating terminal and final destination, are some of the things that are supposed to be transmitted from the train to the wayside.
In cab systems, only speed limits are sent to an on-board recciever. On some lines that's all. Most have the penalty feature though. Very few out side of transit systems have an actual stop code. On the NE corridor for example, the minimum speed is "Restricted' @20 MPH. They can't actually stop a train. On the LIRR it's 15 MPH.
CBTC i'm very sure will have the ability to stop equipment
CBTC might collapse under it's own weight. Conference on CBTC being conducted at the Washington Marriot Hotel today and tomorrow. Anyone out there attending.
Mr. Erik, if the brake pipe ruptures then the trains will collide!!!
No, if the brake pipe ruptures, all pressure will vent to atmosphere. With a loss of pressure at a rapid rate, this will bring about an automatic application of the train's emergency braking system.
A quick stop will follow. Dave, you know better.
Or dare say it, I intrude into your demenses? And thou art offended?
If the leading train dumps brake pipe then the following train which is following at less than the safe braking distance to derive a very close headway under the new type train control could collide. That's what I meant Erik. Of course I know better.
Does anyone have any thoughts or theories on why the Marcy Ave side platform station is so radically different than the other seven side platform stations on Broadway? Hewes, Lorimer, Flushing, Kosciusko, Gates, Halsey and Chauncey seem to be of the same design and Marcy seems to be the odd man out. Were the other stations renovated many years ago and Marcy Ave just forgotten?
I think the original Marcy Ave station had a fire, and what you are seeing is the results of that renovation project.
--Mark
I had the opportunity last night to talk to another displaced NY subway fan. He told me that the original Marcy Ave Station was always a side platform station. It had several upgradings over the years. The other seven side platform stations were originally center platform stations that were replaced with new side platforms when the center track was added. That's why they match each other and make Marcy look like it is from another era. This man seems to have a great deal of knowledge of NY Transit so I have no reason to doubt his word.
Karl B
The gentlemen you talked to is correct. The Broadway (Brooklyn) El was built pre-Dual Contracts, and the Marcy Avenue Station dates from that time. It has seen numerous upgrades over the years, but remains basically in it's original form. It was a side platform station because the original track configuration in this area included a center layup track. The Broadway El was originally a two track structure, similar to the old Myrtle El south of Broadway with center wooden platforms. As part of the Dual Contracts, the Broadway El was triple tracked for express service. The other stations along the line were rebuilt to the standards of the Dual Contracts at that time. You will note the similarity of the other stations to the stations east of Cypress Hills on the Jamaica El as well as the stations east of Hudson Street on the Liberty Avenue El. These were built by the same contractor.
Thanks for the response. The man apparently knows a lot about New York's els and subways. I learned a lot of interesting tidbits from him. He claims that when they made all those Broadway center platform stations into side platforms they eliminated one station. There was supposedly a center platform station called Park St? (I think) between Flushing and Myrtle that they did away with completely. He said it was before his time but he remembers hearing about it.
Karl: It was called Park Avenue and was abandoned when the original Myrtle Avenue Station was enlarged and lengthened westward on June 5,1916.As you said it was a single island platform station.
Another station abandoned at about the same time was Evergreen Avenue on the Myrtle Avenue El between Central Avenue and Broadway Stations. It was necessary to abandon it because it would have interfered with the Dual Contract connection to the Broadway El. It was abandoned on September 17,1915 and Central Avenue station as rebuilt was relocated some distance south.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks Larry, at least I had the Park part right. He never said a thing about that other station which surprises me because when he lived in Brooklyn he lived on Evergreen Ave. I'm thinking this man is in his late 70's so he was probably not even born when the Evergreen Ave station was demolished. I think he said the nearest cross street was Greene Ave. I don't know much about that part of Brooklyn. Do those two streets intersect?
Karl B
Yes, Greene Avenue and Evergreen Avenue do intersect. Greene Avenue runs northeast-southwest; Evergreen runs 90-degrees perpendicular to it.
Wayne
Wayne & Larry Redbird;
I finally got to see an old Brooklyn map today and Wayne, you are correct( I knew you would be), Greene Ave and Evergreen Ave do intersect. I know that looking at the map will not give all of the details but I got the impression that the walk from that intersection would be about the same to either Gates Ave or Kosciusko St stations on the Broadway line or to the Central Ave station on the Myrtle Ave line. This man always used the Gates Ave station. It's almost fifty years since he lived there and he says the neighborhood has changed for the worst. Has it?
Karl B
Let's put it this way - the neighborhood is on the rebound after its nadir after the July 13-14 1977 civil unrest during a citywide blackout. It still needs some attention in spots (abandoned properties, vacant lots full of rubble, occasional burned out buildings, mostly along Broadway); some progress has been made, but more needs to be done. At least the situation involving burned-out buildings has been stabilized and the Mayor has put a dent in the drug traffic in the area. There is a building teardown under way just west of Myrtle/B'way, perhaps a new structure will go up there.
Wayne
Whatever became of the "Bargain Town" store located on Broadway between Myrtle Avenue and Kosciusko Street. I know that the building is still standing. In the 50's and 60's we would go there frequently.They had a great toy section. I recall that when one stood on the Myrtle Avenue Station there was a sign for a podiatrist by the name of Dr G Wanderer.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I can remember what that part of Brooklyn looked like as a kid riding through it on a J train in the late 70's/early 80's. Looked liked Dresden after an RAF raid.
Karl: I don't know about Greene Avenue but Evergreen Avenue was on Myrtle Avenue at Evergreen Avenue and Central Avenue was centered on Central Avenue. When Central Avenue Station was rebuilt is was centered between Evergreen and Central Avenues.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The following is an excerpt of an item that appeared on the Associated Press wire this morning:
The federal government says a four (B) billion-dollar plan to link the Long Island Rail Road to Grand Central Terminal isn't such a good idea right now. The Federal Transit Administration has issued a "not recommended" rating to Congress on the project -- partly because the M-T-A hasn't identified how to come up with the money. M-T-A officials say they will submit a new plan to convince the federal government to O-K the Grand Central connection.
I guess when Al Gore talked about transit to stop suburban sprawl, he was talking about Tennessee.
We know where they'll get them money. From cutting capital spending and maintenance in Brooklyn. That's where they're getting the money for more schools in Queens, isn't it.
"I guess when Al Gore talked about transit to stop suburban sprawl, he was talking about Tennessee."
There was an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times last week about how the Federal Transit Administration was denying federal funding to the double-tracking of the Metra North Central Line. The North Central is a new Metra line (opened in 1996), mostly single-track, operating on the trackage of the Wisconsin Central. It has been very successful, and has tapped a whole new transit market. Though it runs basically parallel to the existing Metra-Milwaukee North line, that line's ridership has risen slightly while the North Central was also gaining passengers.
However, the North Central has only 5 round trips per weekday, versus 29 for the Milwaukee North, and there is no weekend service on the North Central. This is due mainly to the single-tracking and the conflicts that additional commuter trains would thus have with Wisconsin Central freight traffic. Therefore, RTA and Metra proposed to double-track the line, and requested some federal and state funding.
The FTA people denied approval on the grounds that the line would contribute to sprawl and that the Metra had no plans or programs to promote transit-oriented development around the stations. To be fair to FTA, it is true that, while many North Central stations were built in the traditional centers of existing suburban towns, many others were built on ex-agricultural "green-field" sites. It is also true that several new subdivisions have sprung up within short distance of the "green-field" North Central stations.
However:
1) Those reasons are somewhat contradictory! Metra shouldn't get money because it's not encouraging development within walking distance of the stations, but it also shouldn't get the money because development has occurred within walking distance of the stations?!?!
2) While it is true that, because of the North Central line, new subdivisions have been built on "green-field" sites, development would have occurred on these sites at some point in the next decade with or without the North Central Line! And because the North Central line is there:
a) many more of those subdivisions were built on "neotraditional" or transit oriented principles than would have been without the line.
b) many of the people who moved into those subdivisions were attracted by the proximity to the railway and they will be using it to get to work rather than driving. If there was no commuter rail station nearby, and the subdivisions attracted the usual mix of buyers, how many of them would have used transit to get to work?
3) Metra is in no position to encourage transit-oriented development. It is strictly a commuter rail agency. Illinois has a tendency of creating single-purpose agencies, each to handle its own particular regional issue, rather than creating regional agencies with multiple powers and purposes. The only way it could encourage TOD is to condemn land around station sites in excess of what they need for railway purposes and develop the excess under transit-oriented principles. But does Metra have the money to go into the land development business? And wouldn't some of the public scream bloody murder about a transit agency that cannot even turn a profit (that is, cover it's expenditures from the farebox and advertising) getting into what would surely be characterized by opponents as "land speculation"?
It shows just how short-sighted and dogmatic the FTA (and Al Gore) are. You're still going to have sprawl. But now you have will sprawl plus increased auto traffic into Chicago (or any other city) because of the poor rail service from growing suburban communities. By attempting to regulate sprawl, you are putting a damper on economic development. So fewer jobs will be created in Illinois. Also, since when has the federal government had the authority over zoning and development issues? I trust the people of Illinois (or any other state) and it's electorate to make those decisions.
Anyone know how prevalent this "transit agency as central planner" mindset is?
I know Atlanta's MARTA is very proud of the integrated developments they're overseeing at their stations, and I think Washington Metro made some development and land-sale money on parcels along their red line, but it seemed like both of these plans were local efforts to generate some alternative revenue sources. Is it really federal policy? For how long?
sounds like a good idea, however N.Y.C has high local taxes so businesses are driven away, where Atlanta has been subsidized by the federal Gov't spending more in the south than it takes in there. if the tax problem could be solved, the MTA could be looking at a real opportunity to liquidate surplus property and enhance ridership. just make those taxes and subsidies the same for everybody
"By attempting to regulate sprawl, you are putting a damper on economic development. So fewer jobs will be created in Illinois."
While I (obviously, by my previous posting) think that the FTA is wrong on this one, and that any program that increases transit ridership in a relatively-cost effective manner is inherently good even if some "greenfield" development results, I must disagree with the above-quoted assertion.
There is a large amount of underdeveloped or undeveloped (vacant and abandoned) properties in already-urbanized areas (so-called "brownfields"). Since these areas already have infrastructure like roads, transit, utility service, etc. in place, it makes sense to encourage development -- which we agree shall and MUST occur -- to occur in these areas rather than to sprawl out into agricultural "green-fields" areas where expensive new infrastructure has to be built. Of course, one cannot totally prevent development in rural areas, but you can use both incentives and regulations to channel as much of it as reasonably possible to already-developed urban and near-suburban areas. At the very least, we can remove the existing incentives and regulations that promote sprawl.
To put it simply: even in a place like metropolitan New York City, there's plenty of room to build development "up" (increasing density where development exists) rather than swallow up more farm land by building "out" (low-density development in greenfields). While some people are using sprawl as an excuse for NIMBY/BANANA/no growth agendas, most responsible discussion of sprawl realizes that we need to channel development, NOT prevent it. In fact, some argue that the higher costs to society (thus the gov't, and thus citizens and businesses in the form of taxes) of sprawl slows down development to an extent!
Has any one else beside me noticed that the new home of socialism and all the social change radicals is the enviornmentalist movement? It's the only way they have to excersise some influence on the "capitalist agenda"
I sure have noticed it. And it isn't socialism, it's feudalism.
Under captialism, you get what you earn, at least in theory.
Under socialism you get what you need, at least in theory.
Under feudalism you get to keep what's you've got, whether you need it or not, deserve it or not. And those that ain't got? Too bad. Socialism was originally intervening to help the poor. Environmentalism is intervening to help the better off. This whole environmental racism thing, to the extent the chattering classes participate in it, is just a guilt trip.
No one ever says "this is too dense, lets make some of the existing people/businesses leave." No one ever says the environmentalist should leave his or her existing home in the woods. No one is measuring the environmental impact of the existing Astoria Line -- just the proposed extention to LaGuardia.
Environmental claims, when raised in opposition to development projects, frequently are red herrings. I can cite an example from my own childhood in Connecticut. Back in the very late 1960s, my father, who was doing contracting work at the time, proposed construction of a ~15-lot subdivision in the north end of Waterbury. Almost as soon as he announced the plans, there was a big hue and cry about how the development would ruin the local environment. Note that this was just about when the environment was becoming a major topic. Among the more heated claims was the assertion that a nearby lake would be rendered unsuitable for swimming during the construction phase. An odd claim, to be sure, in that the lake was (a) several hundred feet from the development and (b) privately owned with swimming forbidden. In any event, the opponents tried to get the city planning board and, later, board of aldermen to stop the project, but weren't successful.
It later came out (I can't remember exactly how) that the people in the neighborhood didn't care at all about the environmental issues. They were concerned that the development would attract minorities to what was then a white, mostly Joe Sixpack area. Environmentalism just happened to be a trendy issue to raise. And what was funny is that most if not all of the people who moved into the development were themselves white. While the neighborhood is now somewhat racially mixed, that didn't happen until at least 15 years later.
But then aren't we just letting the federal government make land-use decisions that are best determined by the marketplace and local zoning concerns? What's next - another huge federal 'land-use' bureaucracy? The feds are telling that Illinois 'agricultural land owner' (farmer) that they know what's better for him than he does. In many states farmers' property taxes are high because the suburbs have reached them, they have to sell. Some communities charge a lower rate for farms but others don't. With the feds in the middle the farmer is screwed no matter what. As is noted in another post, the sunbelt will benefit from this policy as it will effectively discourage employers and developers from locating near the large northern and midwestern cities. High labor costs plus goverment meddling do not make an attractive location.
Re: government "meddling"
Do you realize that even if the federal gov't stays out of the business of regulating land use decisions as such, it effectively still IS making land use decisions when it:
1) decides what transportation projects to fund?
2) gives income-tax breaks to some land-use-related economic decisions but not others?
3) decides where to put large government offices and other facilities?
4) decides on the parking provisions for those facilities?
5) decides whether or not to include "transit checks" or similar instruments in the benefits package of civil servants?
I agree that the federal government has no business directly regulating land use. But, simply because it:
*is a large entity with large numbers of employees and offices all over the country,
* collects income taxes, and
* regulates and funds transportation,
it has the power to affect land uses, and it should at least conduct these activities with the goal of not ENCOURAGING sprawl!
When the Government moved large numbers of agency headquarters and offices outside Washington DC into the Maryland and Virginia suburbs, it made pro-sprawl DECISIONS. When it appropriated billions for the Interstate highways and only millions for transit projects, it made pro-sprawl DECISIONS. When obtaining an FHA loan was much more favorable for newly-constructed housing than for purchasing existing housing stock, the Government made a pro-sprawl DECISION. None of these were land-use decisions in the sense that you mean them, none of these involved government **regulation** of private land use, but clearly they had an effect on sprawl, and if the Government had installed an anti-sprawl policy before now, perhaps many of these decisions would have gone the other way.
Based on the fact that the FTA is actively using the 'sprawl' issue to deny the Illinois request is indication that the federal government is indeed taking the next step towards regulation local land use.
As someone involved in land use regulation for a living, who sees how it works, I have to agree with Dan that federal land use decisions are a bad idea. But I don't think much of local land use decisions either. While a letter writer to the current issue of Planning Magazine says otherwise, planners, not the market, created sprawl.
True, the advent of the automobile, and the desire for home-ownership, meant that densitites were going to go down. But in post-war areas where zoning was permissive -- ie. eastern Queens and Staten Island -- densities ran from 10 to 30 units per acre. Developers built garden apartments, two-family houses, and rowhouses. Even in South Richmond, where they want to stop development and (due to outsized influence in this administration) got what they wanted, they didn't want to ban the two-family house. You can still get 15 units per acre. People want their parents and kids to be able to live in the area, and to get that income.
Now look at the suburbs. If you couldn't afford a detached, single-family house on a 1/4 acre, then 1/2 acre, then one-acre lot, they wanted to keep you out. Zoning did it, not developers. The suburbs sprawl at four, eight, or twelve times the rate of "market" driven development, and non-residential activities are that far away.
The planners are to blame for causing the opposite of what they are now in favor of. So what do the want to do? Put in even more rules for force developers to do the opposite of what they forced them to do before!
Anthony Downs wrote a good book on this subject, in which he blamed rent control (the "liberal" mistake) and restrictive zoning (the "conservative" or "environmentalist" mistake) for many of our ills.
(FTA denied funding to METRA) Glad to know those SOBs aren't just sticking it to NYC. This is absurd. The FTA is denying funding due to suburban sprawl, while feds are funding highways up the wazooo. The money is going to the sunbelt, boys. Damn them.
The FTA recommended and not-recommended ratings are really Go/No-GO ratings. If an application is incomplete or not all of the I's are dotted and T's are crossed it gets a No-Go until they are corrected. A not recommended rating is not a stop card.
I don't believe that we'll be getting more than our five percent (with seven percent of the population and eight percent of federal tax payments) of the federal transportation money as a result of this. Why should we beg the FTA for our money back? Why not just kill off the whole federal infrastructure program? It's killing us. You pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut out the middleman in Washington.
You folks wanted to get rid of Senator Al. Now you've got Chuck "the schmuck" Schumer. Congratulations, this is what you get.
You said it! Senator Al would have fought the FTA tooth and nail against that lame-brained decision. The FTA will eat Chuck the Putzhead alive. Get ready for more crowding at Penn Station. Thank you New York State voters for replacing one of our best fighters with somebody who has no idea what he's up against. All the Schumer voters and supporters out there really screwed New York this time! Don't you dare blame "those mean Republicans" this time! It's not their fault an idiot who only loves to be on TV replaced Senator Pothole as our Senator! Just think what'll happen if Hillary gets elected as our other Senator...
(What happens if Hillary gets elected). We have one politician in this state who is intellegent and cares about the future of the City: Moyihan. And in 2000, he's gone.
Unfortunately, I don't trust Al "The Snake" D'Amato any more than the knucklehead currently sitting in the White House. Yeah, D'Amato got things done -- sometimes (and usually when it benefitted himself politically) -- but he had alot of shaddy, Mafia-related dealings that made him a liability when it came to the "trust" factor. That's why he given the thumbs down. Plain and simple.
And there really is no evidence that Al would have done any better than Schumer in getting the LIRR GCT link built.
Doug aka BMTman
Following the success of the Farewell to the Willy B Field Trip, and at the suggestion of several posters, the next SubTalk Field Trip will be a visit to the Newark Subway to see and photograph the PCC cars, whose days in Newark are numbered. Here are the details:
Date: Friday, June 4, 1999
Time: 6:00 pm
Place: We will meet at the World Trade Center PATH Station, on the platform between tracks 4 and 5, head end. For those unfamiliar with this station, you go down the long sets of escalators from the main lobby of the World Trade Center complex (just follow PATH signs to get there). Once at the bottom level, use the turnstiles to your right, and follow the signs to Tracks 4 and 5 and the trains to Newark.
Itinerary: Not definite right now, but my proposal is that we take PATH to Newark Penn Station and board the Subway. We could make a photo stop at Orange Street Station (grade crossing) and then re-board (for another fare) to go to last stop, Franklin Avenue, for another photo stop. We would then take the subway back to Newark Penn Station. If the light is still good, we could then take PATH one stop to Harrison to photograph Amtrak and NJ Transit trains. (Those not wishing to stop at Harrison could proceed back to NYC.)
Financial Details: Bring lots of $1.00 bills, as both the PATH and Newark Subway fares are $1.00 each trip.
Reservations: Although advance reservations are not necessary, to get an idea of how many are coming, please post here or send me an e-mail to 75113.53@compuserve.com to indicate if you are planning to be on this trip.
Sid,
Sounds like a great trip. I can't make it though -- I'm hosting a fund-raiser on WGBH-TV (Boston's PBS station, similar to Channel 13 in NYC; the home of Julia Child and This Old House). But I'm really glad to see the field-trip phenomenon is catching on, and I'll look forward to seeing the pictures!
I realy want to come to this one, but my asst. is on vacation that week, so I'll need to think about how to work around MY problem.
Worst case I'll use your detailed directions to catch up with you folks if I don't get to the NYC PATH station by 6PM.
So .... count me in :o)
P.S. I realy l-o-v-e PCCs ! If I could only catch one to Part Street or Hunting Avenue ....
Mr t__:^)
Sid,
I can make it, email me a list of who will come and I'll make name stickers up. I'll also bring blank stickers with markers for those that don't get on the list. Name badges can be optional of course.
Lou, I wouldn't get off at Orange Street with my name tag on.
PS Have a blast. I'd make it if I weren't in Oregon.
I think I'll be able to make this one. Just so happens I'm starting a week's vacation that night, and this would get it off to a great start.
What do you mean that the PCCs' days are numbered. How close is the end? Has a date been set or order placed for their successors? Are they being sold to another operator?
The PCC's will be replaced by light rail vehicles that are part of the same order now being delivered for the opening of the Bergen-Hudson Light Rail Line. It is not clear when some of those cars will be used to replace the PCC's, so the demise of the PCC's can be as early as later this year or maybe not for another year or two. I'm not sure where NJ Transit stands about trying to sell them, but I'm not sure how many potential buyers are out there. I have heard that NJ Transit has done a good job the past few years maintaining the ones that are running. Bottom line: even if they'll be around a while, it should be fun having a fan trip to ride and photo the PCC's on June 4th.
The new cars are supposed to enter service on the Newark Subway this time next year.
When will the first portion of the Hudson-Bergen Line open for revenue service?
I'm not entirely sure, but I believe the first leg of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Line is supposed to start up very early in 2000. My understanding is that the line will start in Bayonne and go only as far north as Exchange Place initially. The Exchange Place to Hoboken Terminal portion, which was originally supposed to open at the same time, will follow many months later. I recollect reading something about a change in the alignment around Hoboken Terminal.
Twenty-First Century Rail, the consortium building the line for NJ Transit, claims there will be all sorts of financial hell to pay unless the route is in revenue service by March 1, 2000. Trackage is supposed to be completed and powered by this November 1 so operators can commence training runs.
They are really moving fast with track construction west of Exchange Pl.
There are supposed to be two branches opening in March, 2000, from East 34th Street in Bayonne and West Side Avenue in Jersey City. These meet near Liberty State Park; the line then runs east and north to Exchange Place.
The reason for the delay in reaching Hoboken is that plans for the light rail station at Hoboken Terminal were changed. The station was supposed to be on the north side of the terminal; now it is going to be on the south side. The mayor and city council of Hoboken were against street running, so the design of the route was changed.
I do believe that SF Muni has dibs on a number of the PCC's; don't know exactly how many, but it is unlikely that any of them will be going to the scrap-yard anytime soon. Perhaps Seashore Museum or Branford has put in for a few as well.
Wayne
Just a note, some PCC's have already been converted to Pantagraph (Sp?) instead of trolley wire pickup. I read that some but not all PCC's will be kept but all new LRV's will the the norm this time next year.
You probally read that in the fine article in April '99 Railpace. It has gotten my mouth watering ....
Mr t__:^)
I'd love to come, but there's no way in hell I'm giving up my Mets-Yankees tickets. None. Not for $1M. Not for a subway car. Not for a funeral. Well, maybe for a permanent job....
-Hank
You're forgiven. I have a concert that evening, and will be doing my best impression on timpani of an A train of R-10s thundering past 81st St. in the fourth movement of Chaikovsky's Fifth Symphony.
P. S. It has been determined that the T in Tchaikovsky is not necessary.
I will try to be there.
I'm in, if the wife says okay!!!
Count me in, even though I don't mean to make anybody feel jealous when I say that I possess a New Jersey Transit Reduced Fare Card, so my fare on the Newark City Subway will be a mere US$0.45 per boarding during off-peak hours.
If I can get the day off (50-50) and if I can get someone to make the coffee, I might be able to go. I could start by getting the Noon (12:06) train out of Babylon.
Wayne
Ill be there with bells on! (or at least a name tag...)
As Mr. Train Control and the authority on such subjects I deem Cab Signaling to be supreme. CBTC will be tried and used on the 14th Street-Canarsie Line and only the future will tell the outcome but cab signaling is GREAT. After all there are not enough trains to run less than 60 second headways and no reason to do so on the Canarsie Line.
You types that believe in CBTC and it's safety can do so at your own risk. Cab signaling is failsafe, cost effective and time proven. The promoter of CBTC says that the track circuits and signaling system is unreliable on NYCT. It needs CBTC. You folks who ride the train on NYCT know it is the cars and operations that are unreliable and not the signals.
LETS HAVE SOME SUPER GOOD DISCUSSIONS ON THE BENEFITS OF CBTC AND IT'S SAFETY ON SUBTALK!!!
I have a couple questions about Cab Signaling vs. Track-Circuit Wayside Signals:
What specific benefits does cab signaling have over track-circuit wayside signals? I have been told that cost savings from not having to maintain as much wayside equipment is the main advantage. Are there other advantages?
Cab signaling is fixed-block, correct? If it's fixed-block, how can it improve headways? Or can it?
Would you advocate moving NYC subways from the existing system to cab signaling, and NOT CBTC? Would it be worth it to make the investment? Why or why not?
I ask this last question because Philly is planning on doing exactly that. They plan to move the MFL to cab signaling in a year or two. I just don't see how it's worth it to resignal a whole line, and NOT get the benefits of a moving-block technology. Would the savings on maintenance be that great? I feel like I'm missing part of the story here...
I say they should wait until CBTC is "tried and tested", then go with that. Then resignaling the whole line would have some more tangible benefits.
(PS: I apologize if I'm not using correct terminology. Please correct me if that's the case.)
Well, there's cab signals and then there's cab signals. Let's
start with simple wayside block signals. Each signal governs
the entrance to the block ahead. You see the signal and it tells
you what you are supposed to be doing when you get up to it (e.g.
stop, proceed slowly, approach expecting next signal at stop, etc.)
With cab signals, that information is transmitted to you invisibly
by sending pulses of different rates through the rails. You get
a signal in the cab in lieu of a wayside signal. Of course, you
don't quite know where the block is, but that's OK, because the
cab signal indications are set up such that you have time to comply
with the signal. So, if you get a stop signal one block ahead,
you'll have time to stop before you get to the next block, assuming
you have been following the signals all along and were slowing down
after you got that approach signal the block before.
The advantages of this first level of cab signaling are elimination
of maintenance costs of wayside signals and signal masts and bridges.
Note, however, that you still have wayside signals at interlockings,
where you want to precisely control the stopping point of a train
so it does not foul another move.
As a fringe benefit you can also eliminate some line circuit wiring
between blocks because you have "coded" track circuits.
To retrofit an existing wayside system to cab signals means
adding a lot of relays. Since they probably won't fit in the
existing enclosures, that means a lot of construction expense.
With cab signals, you can add Automatic Speed Control. With this
system, if you ignore the cab signals, you will be put into emergency.
It's similar to the wayside train stop system used in NYCT, but
it also provides compliance checking for permissive signals.
ASC requires on-board equipment for each locomotive (in FRA terms,
any powered car, such as an electric M.U. car, is a locomotive).
You need to have a bypass so in case the ASC equipment blows up
(e.g. the speedometer stops working) you can still run the train.
Then you need to have some way of discouraging your engineers from
using the bypass :) There's no 2-way communication, so you have
to rely on lead seals over the bypass switch and big noticeable
lights inside and outside the car and surprise inspections.
Communications-Based Train Control means the train is in constant
2-way contact with the wayside signalling equipment via
special radios. The wayside receivers can determine the position
and speed of the train and they share that information with other
wayside stations. Together, the wayside equipment and the on-board
equipment acts as one intelligent network that assesses conditions
and decides on the safest course of operation.
It is a "moving-block" system because there are no fixed block
locations established by insulated joints and track relays.
The train is given a constantly-changing speed envelope in which
to operate. The maximum speed is determined by analyzing the
distance to the next train, its speed, and the relative braking
curves of the two trains.
In theory, this approach would allow a following train to creep up
a car length behind its leader and still provide assurance that it
won't hit it. It always choses the highest safe operating speed,
and that choice is continually updated, therefore it is the most
efficient use of track space consistent with safety, unlike fixed-block systems which necessarily sacrifice efficiency for
worst-case safety. I disagree with David R's contention that if
the lead train goes into emergency, there's gonna be a collision.
As soon as the CBTC detects the lead train decelerating, it would
enforce a compliant speed envelope on the follower that would
prevent the collision.
That being said, proving the correct operation of
a distributed network of computers is far from trivial.
Conventional signaling is based on years of experience with
the failure modes of electromechanical devices and the rules
for designing and analyzing vital circuits are well-established.
The signal industry has only recently been able to come up with
guidelines for proving the correct operation of stand-alone
computers for signal use (so-called "Vital Signal Processors").
Extending that to a network is a much, much more difficult problem.
Wouldn't it be a bitch to have a fatal collision caused by something
like the Intel Pentium floating point bug? Think about the state
of computer software today (esp. mickeysoft) and ask yourself if
you'd trust life-safety systems to it.
CBTC requires much less wayside equipment. There will still be
track circuits in place to provide broken rail protection, switch
locking, and a fall-back in case CBTC fails or non-CBTC equipment
needs to operate in the territory. However, the track circuits
can be made much fewer and farther between since they are not
controlling the spacing between trains. All of the pesky retaining
circuits, cut sections and timing sections can be eliminated too.
On the other hand, CBTC equipment must be installed in every car,
or at least every car that could be on the head-end. With all this
multi-car-set linking, that reduces the inventory requirements from
6000 to maybe 1500 or so CBTC onboard units. Each onboard unit
is going to be very, very expensive, much more than conventional
ASC and certainly much more than what subway cars carry today
(a trip cock :), and it will probably have to be maintained largely
by the vendor. If the CBTC fails en-route, you will have to hobble
the train back to the yard or layup using effectively very long
absolute blocks.
Hey, if you want my solution to the NYCT signal/safety dilemna,
I'd install microprocessor-controlled anti-skid braking AND
magnetic track brakes on the entire fleet, upping the emergency
brake rate to 6.0, and call it a day.
Weren't the R-44s and R-46s originally equipped to run on such lines? For some reason, I get the impression that cab signalling was tried out on some BMT standards, but I could be dead wrong.
Yes, the R44/46 cars had original gear that was very similar to the LIRR M1 cars.
The cab signals were different in that they employed a stop code, whereas the Rail Road dosen't. The P-Wire braking system was very similar to the M1 also.
It's a damn shame they didint keep the equipment in working order. The cars had tremendous power when in the regulated mode. Flat out they were supposed to be able to maintain 70 MPH. Now in the current enviornment that's not feasible. But the aditional power to MAINTAIN SPEED going up a hill would be nice. All the other rail operators around the NY area have this power. Only the TA. Everyone else goes foward. We go backward.
As I understand, the 2nd Ave. line was designed for 70 mph speeds. And, of course, that's where the R-44s and R-46s were supposed wind up.
I'm sorry, I think you're missing my point. Yes I know the first of the 75' cars were meant to be run on the Second Av line. But there was a feature incorporated into them, whereby they could be run with the full power in regulated mode on the older lines. All that good stuff, the fun gear, was removed years ago. One of the reasons I'm no longer "Mr. R46"
On other rail carriers, the equipment is not run "flat out" at the MAS. The Maximum Authorized Speed. Example: NJT ArrowIII M.U. cars have enough H.P. to run at the MAS of 80 MPH, up hill, pulling dead cars too!
A locomotive travelling down the railroad at the MAS goes up a hill, the engineer simply opens the throttle more. Maintainig speed, like you do when driving your automobile on the interstate.
Here in the subway, the equipment was always underpowered. But now after the field shunt coil was removed from the final steps of acceleration, it's positively lethargic. Perfect example, the 60th Street river tube. Some real Motormen (not train operators) can achieve 60 MPH on the down grade. With an R68, yor lucky to see 16 going up! We all should be ashamed of our selves for letting this happen.
Never at the forefront of cutting edge technology or methods, was the TA. Now we've become the laughing stock of transportation systems. What else besides MetroCard and Graffitti Free have we done in the last decade?
I have to agree with Mr. Dina. All the motormen and tower operators and dispatchers and many others have led to this demise in speed on our subway.
Two rear ends on the West End between Fort Hamilton and 9th Avenue, and some other bone headed maneuvers regarding keying-by and taking call-ons proved that motormen cannot be trusted to key-by signals and such. Common sense took a leave on these things.
14th Street proved that when the rules are not followed (101-N) a major catastrophe can happen.
The Willamsburgh Bridge accident showed that the TA (though not admitted) was negligent on the signal system.
All these put together add up to the logical choice of slowing the trains down. (And I don't mean by applying more brakes) Physics will prove that it takes less distance to stop a slower moving object with the same amount of brake pressure.
Believe me if none of these things happened we would still have a very fast (and from an operating standpoint a very enjoyable) RAPID transit system.
Rule 101 (n) TOWER OPERATOR
When for any reason it is necessary to divert a train from its regular route, the switch must not be set for the diverging move nor the signal for that route cleared until the train has stopped, unless the Tower Operator can see the train and has observed that its speed has been reduced to that allowable for th ecrossover movement.
And A and D trains would still be rocketing along CPW instead of wallowing (R-44s and R-68s) along or taking a leisurely stroll (R-38s).
Well, the R44s are generally slow and the R68s are moribund but the R38s are still peppy. A leisurely stroll begins at the 81st Street GT nest and also up around Homeball Alley (145th to 125th). Tomorrow I ply the R38s to the Fulton Express for the first time on the weekend ever. I won't ride an R44 (unless 5408 happens along).
BTW when I was coming down from 175th to 34th aboard #3994 back on Apr 24 we came up to the 1997 wreck site near 135th Street - there's a big chunk of concrete taken out of the curtain wall where #5282 (ex. #140) hit it.
Wayne
Say, Wayne, did you happen to notice any construction going on right at the location where the Concourse express track diverges from the express tracks?
Also Flatbush Ave is filled with slow times and a wall with a stop Sign behind the Bumping Block because of trains had hit the Block. Also the S marker was moved up.
I call that Stop sign the Forest Gump Sign.
You can speak for yourself, there are plenty of excellent motormen who operate safely and efficiently. It seems that operating PER SCHOOL CAR INSTRUCTION(RULE BOOK) makes management pretty nervous when the topic is brought up(aren't we operating to rule book standards already?) it seems that selectively bending the rules to satisfy train service requirements (on time trains= bigger bonuses).
I've always felt safest operating by the rules. Common sense also plays a major role in operation. Why would anyone key a red automatic and have the train wrapped around?(moron/idiot). After accepting a call on and put the train on the post? is this person a total nut job?
does anyone remember "Restricted speed and Extreme caution"?
no faster than 10 mph
stop 2 car lengths from visible object
prepare to stop within 1/2 range of vision
prepare to make in immediate stop
speed over switches unless otherwise posted
not move past anything unsafe on track or roadbed.
I am not suggesting that you are one of these but there are plenty of guys (or women) who can quote rules but conveniently forget them when it's a matter of convenience. For example, the rocket scientist I met this morning. I was walking on 6 lead in Jamaica Yard Portal (on my way to Union Turnpike Station). Now, anyone who's ever brought a train to Jamaica knows how busy those leads can be. However, the operator relaying his (wash) train on 5 lead decided it would be faster to walk on the outside. He must have also thought that it would be faster still if he didn't wear a vest or turn on his flashlight.
One of the problems with the TA is training. It's not long enough, or comprehensive enough.
On the railroads, LIRR especially, we had to MEMORIZE, word for word certain rules and definitions. The definition of restricted speed was one of them.
Therin lies the answer for many of the collisions and derailments we have.
You also had to memorize the Physical Characteristics (PC) and draw it from memory for all 11 branches. I'm not sure that the exhaustive training required by the LIRR is as constructive as some might think.
I wish the TA had the PC training we got on the railroad. Then I'm sure we'd see a drastic reduction in things like wrong routes and train operators hitting timers.
It serves a dual purpose as well. Crews that make it through the LIRR training program have a certain amount of pride and professionalism not seen here. I believe this comes from having passed the most intensive training for rail operating personnel in the country. I had over 400 hours of classroom time on the rules and signals alone!
Then airbrake, PC, engine.
It takes 15 months to two years to qualify for the engineer certificate. When the TA cut motor...Train operator training to just 5 and half months, they not only saved money (the holy grail) they created a whole class of under trained people. Haven't you noticed the sharp rise in split switches and collisions? The facts speak for themselves.
But that's what RTO wants. The faster and cheaper we are to replace, the better it is for management. After all, how much money we earn, and more importantly, how little respect we recieve, is directly proportional, to how easily we are replaced.
If it took two years to train a train operator, do you really think that the disrespect and (no t.p. in the rest rooms, barely enough time between trips to sit down) excessive disipline (suspensions for overunning a station platform, we are all human) for minor infractions would be going on? This crap dosen't happen to airline pilots? Or Ship Captains? Or Railroad engineers. Why? Because they are HARD to replace. So TA got smart, and made us expendible. That's the long and short of it.
I agree that NYCT crews need better training. As you say, the results speak for themselves. As for the LIRR training, i still think it's overkill. Why all 11 branches at one time? Why not qualify on one branch at a time? My understanding of the LIRR system is that you get 3 chances to qualify 'ON THE PAYROLL'. The next 4 are off the payroll. There is no eighth chance. Talk about pressure.
And it's HARD. The way it's done is also like military basic training, to weed out those who can't or won't apply themselves. PC is actually easier than rules though. It's either there or it isin't.
Name the stations, draw the interlockings, that's pretty much it. Name and locate the signifigant points, like hand throws on the main. Rules in effect for the branch.
But you don't have to draw a map with the automatics, or the grade crossings. It's hard only for the sheer volume, not the detail.
I don't advocate this type of training here, but a variation is neccesary. As it is now, we don't get any PC at all. Train operators deserve more than one day on a line, with a qualified train operator. That's not enough to say: "Your'e now Qualified"
Training never tells a t/o to split switches or to wrap your train around a bumping block or to run a signal, that always comes from lack of attention what he/she is doing. FAST MOVES in yards will yield switch run throughs, derailments, and collision with bumping block. Safety stops 2 cars 50 feet and 10 feet from standing cars or bumping block would prevent plenty of accidents. FAST Moves in yards in the end results in less switchmen needed in yards. School car operation is no guarantee shit won't happen but less incidents SHould occur. All the training in the world isn't going to mean shit if a knuckle head train operator isn't paying attention to what they're doing. Especially in the yard when dropped couplers and split switches, collisions are the most common accidents.
You miss the point. It's the grueling training that weeds out the knuckle heads. All that training shows who's serious and careful. It makes you learn to appreciate your work, and love and cherish it. Because it was so damn hard to get there. Almost two years of my life. Memorizing word for word. Plastering my apartment with track maps. Working 12 hours a day 6 days a week. Day in and day out of nothing but rule 251/261. Superiority of trains, ASC, and 26 brake valve, and....and.....
After all that, only a fool would take stupid chances. Only an irresponsible child would make speed in an area where restricted speed was called for.
And safety stops are for neophytes who can't control their trains. On the railroad they're not required. As professionals, our judgement is trusted. We NEVER needed a picture of a home signal at interlockings to tell us the proper route!
Proper selection of candidates, and intensive training. It's a fourmula for success that has served the railroads well for a century. The TA chose to go the cheap route. And now to show for it, they have all these split switches and rear end collisions, and derailments.
Ask yourself, how often do you hear of these things on the LIRR?
Now if a UNION REP is saying this about his own brothers, don't you think I might have seen so much to convince me?
"The TA chose to go the cheap route. And now to show for it, they have all these split switches and rear end collisions, and derailments."
Wow, Erik, I totally agree with you. In most of your previous posts you stated that the cause of several 'incidents' was solely due to mechanical failure and mechanical tampering. Now you are saying it was due to human error on the part of RTO personnel (which I completely agree with).
Each case is different, and I shoudn't say that "all" or "every" or even "most".
The only ones that I can truthfully point to the train and say it's the cause of the problem is the Wiily-B wreck, and the rear ender on the Canarsie line.
And we all know how I feel about the accident at Steinway Street. Signal was faulty. No way in hell was that Mr. Sales' fault.
But yes, most of those split switches and minor yard collisions are squarely on the shoulders of the train operator. But then, I blame TA for not training these people properly. They need more supervised operating time. More classroom. A more comprehensive curriculum.
Do us all a favor and keep the profanity out of the posts! Strong opinions are welcome, but if you want to be taken seriously please clean up your language. You can make your point without it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree that training within NYCT isn't extensive/intensive enough, however many mishaps occur when our heads start to swell and think we can do things swifter without regard for the consequences.
I agree that training within NYCT isn't extensive/intensive enough, however many mishaps occur when our heads start to swell and think we can do things swifter without regard for the consequences. Lack of attention either through fatigue or just plain thoughtlessness I feel has and will continue to be a hazard in any safety sensitive title. There will always be someone who will lose sight of what their job is and think of some bullshit excuse for why they caused an accident...
Thank you to everyone who contributed to my question about subway cars fitted with flywheels. At the moment, there's quite a lot of interest here in the UK in using flywheel-powered electric transmissions to propel light rail/streetcar type vehicles, avoiding the need for expensive overhead traction supply wires or traction supply rails etc. I'm looking into this and was trying to find out what work has already been done. Thanks again for your help.
This one is truly amazing:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9905/11/high.speed.derailment.ap/
The interesting tidbit, though is at the end - they are going to be testing it (soon), on the NEC near princton. I wonder how long till we see it there?
Gulp!.......
There was a picture in today's Boston Herald. It looked a bit embarassing. Interestingly enough the track was recently inspected, and the speed was very low. The derailed power unit (locomotive) was on the rear end of the train too, but the whole mess stopped before any significant damage was done.
This weekend will see the Extended Jubilee Line opening to fare paying passengers between STRATFORD and NORTH GREENWICH only,most English newspapers/TV channels covering this item.Second section from North Greenwich to Westminster to open "late summer" ! and final section linking to present Jubille line by the year end.
Rob :^)
London UK
Is the Jubilee Line (including the new extension opening this weekend) served exclusively by new train equipment, or are some of the original Jubilee Line cars still in service. Have some of the original Jubileee Line cars been transferred to any other line in the system?
Jubilee line now worked by 1996 Tube stock ONLY.
Previous 1983 stock has either been:
a) batch 1 , scrapped
b) batch 2, stored for conversion to run with Piccadilly line stock
pending authorisation/funding.
c) one unit to works use
d) one driving car to Fire Department training ground.
.
The scrapping of 1983 stock is quiet frankly an outrage, something the media has been hot on for a good many months!
Regards
Rob :^)
Scrapped after 15 years is appalling, but the real stupidity though comes from when the 1983 stock was designed. They were designed at a time when Underground patronage had been in relentless decline for somewhere in the region of 25 years. Some bright spark decided that they could save some money by reducing the numbers of doors per car. The result is that it would be useless to attempt to intermix the trains with anything else in the fleet.
I suppose they could have used them to replace Bakerloo Line trains, but the increased loading and unloading times would have been unhelpful. Possibe other destinations could have included the East London Line, Waterloo and City Line, or even the Isle of Wight, but the Underground seems determined to bankrupt itself with the Jubilee Line Extension, and so scrapping a fleet of cars unnecessarily seems to be par for the course.
Wow - I'm somewhat shocked to hear of cars that new being scrapped, despite the drawbacks mentioned. Maybe this will be some helpful evidence for some of the SubTalk posters who would like to see the TA scrap the R-68's because they're so slow!
Scrapping cars just because they're slow would be foolish, especially if their reliabilty and MDBF were excellent. If the R-68s were breaking down left and right a la the R-16s, it would be a different story. I'm willing to cut some slack on behalf of the R-68s here. Sure, they're slow, but at least they're reliable.
Putting equipment out of its misery is one thing. Sending it out to premature slaughter is another. The Triplexes come to mind immediately in that regard.
Why can;t they make the R68 faster by eventually putting in higher HP motors or changing the gear ratio?
They need to put the field shunting back in on those cars. And the rest of the fleet, for that matter.
The Manhattan bridge and the Willamsburg bridge are the 2 worst bridges in the city. The are corraded, damaged, weak, why did they take so long? Thee work shoyuld have been done a couple of years ago. Even though the Manhattan bridge was worked it is still weak. One bridge might just have to be torn down and be built back up. It might take a long time but it will be worth it. Plus the subway would move faster.
You forgot the brooklyn bridge which is deteriorating in its own way. After all, they didn't install that arch under it at Pearl St for looks.
Actually, the worst bridges in the city have turned out to be the Goethals Bridge and Outerbridge Crossing on Staten Island, which meet absolutely NON of the design criteria in use for the last 50 years (the bridges are over 70 years old) However, as toll bridges, they are kept in a state of good repair.
The Manhattan and Brooklyn are the worst of the 3 lower East River crossings. The Manhattan has it's own structural failings, such as poor design and serious deterioration. The Brooklyn Bridge (which has a 3-ton weight limit, BTW) needs a redecking, which it is getting; however, to compare it to the Manhattan Bridge is like comparing a 707 to a DC3. (the DC3 being the Brooklyn)
First, the Brooklyn Bridge was not designed to carry anything NEAR what it is currently expected to carry; however, it was overengineered from the start. In the 30 years between the completion of the Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges, many technological advances were made. The Manhattan has an all-steel struture, prone to rust and high stress; the Brooklyn has stone towers that will never corrode. The 3-ton limit on the Brooklyn keeps trucks, buses, and soon, most SUVs, off, while the Manhattan Bridge has no posted weight limit.
The Williamsburg, on the other hand, after the emergency shutdown, is in a much better condition than should be expected. Most of the structural defects that were found were/are in the approach sections, not the suspended section, which means that repairs can be made using land-based machines. The currrent project that has the bridge closed to trains is replaceing the supports for the Manhattan approach with concrete peirs, rather than the steel lattice work that it was built with.
Bottom line, each bridge has its own set of problems, with its own set of solutions. And while the best (or most cost-effective long-term) solutions were chosen for the Brooklyn and Williamsburg, the cheapest, not the best, was chosen for the Manhattan.
A replacement bridge, which was the recommendation of many of the engineers who looked at the project, could have been finished already.
-Hank
The Manhattan Bridge's problems are nothing recent but stem from day one. The City Bridge Commissioner appointed in 1902 was Gustav Lindenthal and he did the design work for the Queensborough Bridge and the initial design work for the Manhattan Bridge. He advocated a suspension bridge where the cable would be suspended from nickel-steel eyebars instead of woven steel cable and a stiffining truss 55 feet above the roadway. The design won the approval of an impartial board of engineers but could not receive appropriations from the Board of Alderman. Some say this was attributed to the Roebling wire works which exerted pressure on Tammany Hall since they were the only company which could produce the wire cable while there were eleven that could make the nickel-steel eyebars. When Mayor McClellan was elected in 1904 Lindenthal was replaced by one Leon Moisieff.(This is the fellow who had something to do with a certain bridge over the Tacoma Narrows;nuff said)
Lindenthal continued to criticize the design changes made to the Manhattan Bridge as having insufficient strength to support the bridge deck. He went on to design the Hell Gate Bridge.
For a more detailed discussion of this and other city bridges read "The Bridges of New York" by Sharon Reier,Quadrant Press 1977.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So the Manhattan bridge was built in part by an engineer of the Tacoma Narrows bridge!?
I woulda thunk it, but who would guess that it'd acutally be true!!
Sometimes the truth is so crazy you have to laugh.
Hi Damian. I don't care who built the bridge. I just want it fixed so the Sea Beach can run over it and I can see the Brooklyn Bridge and lower New York harbor. I'm beginning to doubt that I'll live to see it.
While waiting for a Manhattan-bound A train this morning at Utica Avenue at about 11:30, I saw several police officers on the platform with guns drawn. About a minute later, an A train pulled in, and was held in the station for several minutes, as about a dozen more officers, some undercover and some with guns drawn, walked up and down the train peering into the windows as if they were looking for someone in particular. After several minutes, the train doors opened, and we were able to board and proceed on our way.
Does anyone know what was going on, and the reason for the police presence...it scares the shit out of you to be standing on the platform minding your own business, and all of a sudden cops come flying by you with their guns out. Out of curiosity if nothing else, I'd love to know what was going on.
A lot of weird things have been happening aroud Utica. Theres the situation with the at the IRT station on the Monday. Then Monday afternoon there was a shooting on the B46 bus by the Utca Av IRT station. I dont think that this have any correlation to this......
And on the street the other day -- in the same neighborhood there was a shooting incident on the B17 on Utica Ave. (or is this one and the same incident that you mentioned???)
Recently, I moved my family out of Astoria where we had resided for the past ten years. We now live in a very nice apartment not far from the IND's Jamaica yard.
For those of you not familiar with the area, it's off Union tpke. between the confluence of the Grand Central Parkway and the VanWyck Expressway.
There is a lake you may be familiar with. Actually two. Willow and Meadow lakes form the eastern end of Flushing Meadow Park. Jamaica yard sits on the eastern end of Willow lake.
This area is a nature preserve. It's called the "Willow lake Nature area" The lake is ringed by marsh land and there are several forms of wildlife indigenous to the site, that aren't found elsewhere in NYC.
It's a lovely and peaceful setting. Yesterday and today being my days off this week, I took my oldest, 11 year old Jennie to the park, on Monday. We saw a rabbit, phesant and a large turtle. Nice indeed.
Today, while the children were in school, I took my wife to see this. We got more than we bargained for.
The shore of the lake is difficult to reach because of the shoots and reeds. There are only a few clearings to get to it. It was at one yesterday that Jennie and I found the turtle. While looking for the particular clearing, I went into a different one instead. I was trying to find yesterday's turtle. Thank god I was ahead of my wife. Because there was no turtle this time. No.
The body of a dead woman was floating there. Naked, and decapitated. Bloated, and discolored. Apparently having been there a week or so. Thank god, my daughter didn't have to see this.
I returned to the path. I told my wife to stay there. Not to look at what I had found. I wanted to protect her fro the horror of what lay there, floating. We had to notify the police, I said.
I didn't want her to have to look at what I had seen. She get nightmares easily enough. But at first she had thought I was joking. A few minutes before we had joked about this very same subject. She insisted that I show her.
After she had seen for herself that I wasn't kidding, we followed the path up to the GCP service road. I flagged down passing cars, one by one until I found someone who had a cell phone. Within ten minutes an ambulance and the first police cruiser had arrived.
After waiting for the detectives, and being interviewed by them, we went home. My wife seems to be taking this in ok fashion. I perhaps am more rattled by it than she is.
As I sit here now and type this, she has already fallen asleep. Peacefully, I hope.
I'm not shook up by the horror of it. Yes it disturbs me, The brutality of it. But what really bothers me is that I live here. My wife walks to the supermarket, takes the bus. My sons and daughter walk to and from school, not far at all from this once tranquill and beautiful place. Next to Jamaica yard, one of my favorite places. The sound of work train horns at night, etc.
Yvette just jumped out of the bed. She claims it's nothing. I wonder, as she falls asleep again.
If anything I'm outraged. I can't wait for the animal, and I mean sub-human ANIMAL, who did this to be caught. I will be very happy to testify at his trial. Then I hope they give him that lethal injection. (thank you Gov. Pataki) What he really deserves, is what he did to that poor woman.
I'm angry. My lovely new neighborhood no longer feels the same. I feel robbed. For that, I blame the scum who did this too.
I know this is off topic. But thank you all for allowing me to excercise the evil that I feel was haunting me. The typing out of the story has helped me get it off my mind. All of you friends here at SubTalk.
If it's any consolation, chances are that the murder didn't occur in your neighborhood. Most likely, it happened elsewhere and the lake was used as a dumping ground for the body because it is isolated.
True, and then there is "the law of very big numbers." Even something that is very unlikely is bound to happen every now and then, given enough people. It doesn't mean the neighborhood is unsafe. Same thing with crime on the subway and the Colorodo Killings -- a single incident means nothing.
I don't blame you for being rattled, though. When we decided to stay in the city, my wife gave up the idea of taking up golf. At the city courses, we heard, you come upon a body every now and then.
[When we decided to stay in the city, my wife gave up the idea of taking up golf. At the city courses, we heard, you come upon a body every now and then]
Can you move your ball without penalty?
"Can you move your ball without penalty?"
Rules vary from golf course to golf course.
Back in 1990 there was a D.B. found in the sump of the 5th Hole of the Douglaston Park GC (131 yds, par 3), one gentleman I was playing with there told me; don't know if it was true or not. The ravine at the 17th Hole there (99 yds.par 3!) is also a dumping-ground for trash and solid waste when it's not filled with water, mud, reeds &c.
One of these days I will go back to DPGC and play a round there again, if I can get a tee-time. It's a par-67, 5130-yard layout; target golf throughout, with hills that would tire out a goat.
Wayne
I am the mother of the gentlemen that found the body of the poor murdered lady in Flushing Meadow PArk. I appalled to say the least. I have taken my 2 children to that park over many years.Mans Inhumanity towards man can never cease to amaze me. What is become of "us" ? I pray that no one eslse
I am the mother of the gentlemen that found the body of the poor murdered lady in Flushing Meadow PArk. I appalled to say the least. I have taken my 2 children to that park over many years.Mans Inhumanity towards man can never cease to amaze me. What is become of "us"? I pray that no one else has to ever come across such a horrible sight. Pray for our children,Pray for the mother of the poor victim.At this point there is little else to do...Keep your loved ones safe...Know where your family is and with whom....
Well, I move my balls w/o penalty, but I think it has nothing to do with the game of golf....;-)
Erik:
What day did this occur. Seems that every time I take a few days off - stuff happens. Two weeks ago, I took a few days off and when I got back, another one of my cleaners was arrested while on duty. (I'm sure you read about the first one arrested at parsons/Archer station)
BTW - My wife and I were in Lancaster County, PA for a few days and there was a shooting (murder) there on our first night. Guess we just can't escape the plague....
And not a word about it in the news media, unless I missed it.
This type of thing I'm sure is not commonplace, doesn't it deserve to be reported? No, don't sensationalize it, but mention it. The silence seems to say "This is an every day ocurrence, not worth mentioning." Well, it isn't.
Very disturbing. This is the time of year when bodies that have been in the water during the colder seasons come to the surface. In the dark humor of the police, they are called 'floaters'. One came up at Midland beach yesterday, a probable drowning. Your unfortunate find was obviously a homicide, mutilated to make identification difficult.
(And you guys with the golf jokes - sick b*stards)
Yes, we even have "dumping grounds" in Baltimore. Leakin Park in West Baltimore has been a favorite dumping spot for assorted corpses for as long as I've been around and it's still a "prime target".
One of the best, though, took place at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum a couple of years ago. It was a June Saturday, I was the Dispatcher, and all afternoon we noticed a sweetishly funny odor. I finally sent one of the trainmen up behind the Visitor Center (with a radio) to check out the back side of the building (no doors/windows on back side). He didn't call, but came back about 5 minutes later with a funny look on his face. "There's a lady on a blanket behind the building and she's not moving" he said. I called the friendly fuzz, who showed up shortly along with most of the Central District and half the Northern. The lady had a large hole on the back of her head and the cops said that the body had been there for about a week. The discovery made the local TV and the paper.
Life in the street railway biz.
Pelham Bay park in the Bronx has long been reputed to be the favorite dumping ground for sti..., er, dead bodies. Its large size and the relative isolation of many parts is apparently the reason.
"(And you guys with the golf jokes - sick b*stards)"
I not sure what you mean by "sick b*stards". In the last 17 years, I have seen more dead bodies than I care to think about. Some of them were so badly mangled by trains and/or burnt by third rails, that they were not recognizable as human forms. Some were just dead. None of it was pleasant or funny. I also don't know what turnip patch you live in but floater jokes are part os NYC culture, even portrayed in at least one "Seinfeld" episode. Now, these jokes may seem cold to you, but to those of us who deal with it on a regular or even a semi-regular basis, it helps us cope. So if you find the golf jokes offensive, please don't laugh -
<<<<<<<<<<<<< FORE <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
BRAVO! (as I reach for my trusty 4-iron). And my post wasn't even a joke, just a relating of what someone told me.
Back in 1974 I was with a group of friends and we were prowling through the inner reaches of A.P. (Alley Pond Park) in Queens at night (with flashlights); we got to one impossibly remote area (where only the wildlife normally goes) and came across the hulk of a black mid-60s Volkswagen Beetle, and sitting there behind the wheel was a skeleton! How the car and driver got there is a mystery to me.
Wayne
Wayne, I think I can go you one better as far as Douglaston Golf Course is concerned. Back in the early 60's (god - this is dating me), during the winters, that very area around te 17th hole would freeze solid. Sledding down the hills from any direction and across the frozen 'pond' was something we looked foward to each year until our flexible flyers were replaced by cars and girls. (Way off the topic now but us old guys just need to remember the good old days)....
[Sledding down the hills from any direction and across the frozen 'pond' was something we looked foward to each year until our flexible flyers were replaced by cars and girls.]
I suppose you could slide down the hills and across the pond in cars. But on girls? Ouch!!!
Left a participle dangling or something like that.
Steve, how do you do those really cool graphics? That one made me laugh so hard!
Erik,
I met your wife on the internet a few weeks ago, and
I just wanted to say that I am so sorry you had to
go through that experience.
As a wife and a mother, I can only imagine what the
family of that poor dead woman must feel. I wonder
if they even know her fate? And also, I know what
you mean about your neighborhood not feeling the
same. It is as if your entire community has been
violated by one sick individual.
After reading several of the posts following your
original, I sense an uneasiness even from the people
who have seen the same thing you have. I live in a
small town in the midwest, and it is no different
here. The local police pulled a child's body from
the river last month, and determined that he had not
only been murdered, but raped as well.
We all need to stick together and STOP these people
who have no value for human (or any other) life. If
any of you have suggestions as to how, please feel
free to tell us all.
Until then, please know that there are good people
who still care about the living. I think your wife
is a neat lady. Tell her if she needs to talk, I'm
here.
To Jean, Erik, Steve et al: I know that there is a feeling of your neighborhood not being "the same" and a sense of violation. And the loss of life is certainly a horrible and unsettling situation.
One thing that you should remember, however, is that the crime MAY NOT have been committed in your neighborhoods, but that the victim's body was dumped there after the sicko did their deed elsewhere.
I don't know if that helps anyone, but certainly don't let an incident like that stop you from enjoying your neighborhood and participating in community events. Becoming cut off from the community at large might allow other criminal activity to florish.
Just a random thought from Doug aka BMTman
I would like to thank all of you who have expressed support for me and Yvette. Thank you.
I too believe that the victim was murdered somewhere else and the remains disposed of in the lake near my home. Now that a few days have gone by, I feel better, but wary, just the same.
<who have no value for human (or any other) life. If
any of you have suggestions as to how, please feel
free to tell us all.>>
The only way to stop them is to either genetically mutate all people to change their nature. Or kill us all.
I was waiting for the uptown N this evening at Whitehall street and was looking around the station, when I saw the old conductor's board on the uptown (east) side of the center track. It had an interesting message on it: "R1-9 and R10 cars, momentary sw ON" What would that mean? (I figured sw is switch but what is it).
Mike
Hate to admit it, but I don't know. Been looking at that for years, there and at many, many other stations. I would love to know. Been wondering about it, on occasion, since about 1984.
Now what kind of "Transit Professional" am I? An imperfect one I guess. But that dosen't mean I don't my Sh@#!
IIRC,it was an energy saving ploy started in the '70's. During the winter, the "Heat & Fan" switch was to be turned on or off by the Conductor at locations indicated by these signs. Don't know why R-10's were included since the heat was thermostatically controlled.
I know having worked the R-10s there was an exterior key operated momentary switch located in the ceiling below the end signs used to turn on and off the main lights. As a motorman it would be impractical for him to turn on the lights but because the conductor is operating between cars anyway, this sticker on the conductor's board is a reminder for him/her to turn them on at the station stop preceding a tunnel. These were most noticable on the Liberty Av extension to the Fulton St line. The motormans momentarys are heat, fan, P.A. and main motor reset so there is no reason to put these stickers on the conductors boards. My logic for Whitehall St is the TA probably bought 10,000 stickers so they ordered them applied to all conductor's boards, lockers and toilets, as well as foreman's lunchboxes :-)
>My logic for Whitehall St is the TA probably
bought 10,000 stickers so they ordered them applied to all conductor's boards, lockers and toilets, as well as
foreman's lunchboxes :-) <
Much like the "Watch Your Step" stickers I've seen appearing lately everywhere from between end doors to route selector boxes...
Mike
Wasn't there a similar key switch in approximately the same location on the R-1/9s?
Wow, that brings back memories! It's a reminder to turn
on the lights. Not sure why it would be at Whitehall street
though. The R1-R14 cars had exterior "trigger and cap" door
controls and the conductor lived outside. The momentary switch
is a keyswitch located outside the car above the storm door.
Turn clockwise to apply battery voltage to the L1 trainline.
This energizes all the MLR (main light relay) in the train.
Once picked up, each MLR has a "stick circuit", i.e. a closed-
when-energized contact that locally applies battery to the
coil and keeps it energized. So, you apply "momentary" B+
and all the MLRs come up and stay up, and all the lights come on.
Turn the keyswitch the other way, and it applies GROUND to
the L1 trainline. This shorts out all the MLRs. There are a
pair of limit resistors so this momentary dead-short between
the L1 trainline (being back-fed from all the MLRs) and GROUND
doesn't blow a fuse or anything. Once you've shunted L1 this
way, all the MLRs drop out, and then stay out after you've removed
the GROUND because the stick circuit has been broken. Lights out.
What I'm unclear on is why those signs said R1-9 and R-10 only.
The R-16 has the same exterior momentary switch, as do the
R12, 14, 15, 17, 21 and 22 cars.
It's for that reason that I never thought it was that switch. I had assumed that was what the sign refered to. But R11 thru 21?
The sign in mention on the conductors board had to do with the heat/fan momentary switch. I found this out from an old time conductor (he started with the TA in 1948) that I used to work with down at Jay St. back in the early 80's. Other locations (Whitlock Ave. on the #6 line is a good example) have a sign on the conductor's board that say "lights on" or "lights off". These refer to the operation of the main light momentary switch.
Saw an article in Newsday today that stated that the reason that the old diesel coaches are still in service is because of delays with the manufacturer of the new bi-level coaches. Nothing like buying something that is the first, rather than an established car like the HOrizon cars used on Jersy Transit and MetroNorth.
Is it true that the new EMD diesels on the LIRR are limited to only pulling 4 coaches or less? If so, why?
Also, heard that when the new dual mode engines go into service they will require one at each end of the train to prevent gapping at interlockings. Is this so?
Mike H
[Also, heard that when the new dual mode engines go into service they will require one at each end of the train to prevent gapping at interlockings. Is this so?]
Yes ... true. These sets will come into Penn, but not GCT.
Also from this Tues. Newsday article by Hugo Kugiya ...
- 74 of 134 of the bilevel coaches have been delivered
- 9 of 23 of the diesel version of the engines delivered
- orig. plan for service intro was Fall '97, now end of '99
- LIRR says mfg, "... Kawasaki has given priority to another project in Maryland."
Copyright Disclaimer: Have IDed article & author & quoted less then 400 words.
Mr t__:^)
Just to add, Dual Mode needs two engines (one each end) for 3rd rail gaps. I don't understand how Amtrak engines span the same gaps with both types of their engines (Genises and F9? was it)
The C3's as the LIRR calls em are still having door problems. If it was the subway you would call it indication problems. (Happened to me on Oyster Bay for 20 minutes the Engine didn't know the door was closed).
Lower level your head is at platform level, kinda of funny to look at if ya ask me but there are pretty nice cars.
Re: Dual modes vs. Amtrak ... gap. Dual modes to Penn use third rail, Amtrak use O/H.
Re: FL9s ... Amtrak uses them from CT. I'll leave it to others to explain what the difference is to GCT. The FAs & FL9s on LIRR don't go to Penn.
Re: [pretty nice cars.] my daughter rode them several times to/from Stonybrook & had the same comment.
BTW, the engines out there now are single mode diesel (look the same as the dual modes), so they only need one, the trailer coach has controls so that they can go in reverse, but they can't come to Penn or GCT or Atlantic Ave.
P.S. How are you tours of LIRR lines going ... we (I) want a full report :-)
Mr t__:^)
You keep saying AMTRAK is overhear.
EMPIRE Service is with Third RAIL Diesl from Penn Station. THEY DO NOT HAVE TWO ENGINES. FL9's ran to and From Penn on the Empire Service before the new Genesis Engines and they have THRID RAIL OVERRUNNING SHOES.
Empire Service does not have pantagraphs. They run disel down the westside of Manhattan and switch to third rail to enter a tunnel to Penn.
WHY CAN AMTRAK USE ONE ENGINE WITH ONE THRIRD RAIL PICKUP AND LIRR CAN'T???
Oh you singed my eyebrows with the flame ....
Sorry, I'm no expert in this ... maybe Andy or someone more knowledgeable on this will provide more detail.
Question: Isn't it true that none of the Amtrak fleet out of the Sunnyside yard uses third rail ? And the FL9s from CT all went to GCT, i.e. the thru trains over the Hell Gate bridge are all O/H elect?
Mr t__:^)
WHY CAN AMTRAK USE ONE ENGINE WITH ONE THRIRD RAIL PICKUP AND LIRR CAN'T???
The Amtrak trains leaving Penn Station (Empire Service) are in the "tunnel" basically only in the station and the short stretch after crossing up and over the LIRR yard tracks.
LIRR trains will be in the tunnels from Penn Station to Long Island City, and the tunnels simply don't have the ventilation capacity.
Plus there are a heck of a lot more LIRR trains that will be using the tunnels. If Amtrak's third-rail propulsion craps out, they can just start up the diesel and there won't be too much worry about asphyxiating everyone in Penn Station after running through a couple miles of tunnel; it will just leave the station and be in open air in a few moments.
This has been a long standing problem at GCT, i.e. the engineers on the dual modes would leave it in diesel too frequently. I think the problem related to a problematic third rail mode.
Mr t__:^)
>>The Amtrak trains leaving Penn Station (Empire Service) are in the "tunnel" basically only in the station and the short stretch after
crossing up and over the LIRR yard tracks. <<
I have seen the Amtrak Diesls at Sunny Side, they have to be operating under the east river on thrid rail. Empire Coaches are serviced at Sunnyside as well. I am still wondering why the operating difference between Amtrak and LIRR to date haven't found an answer other then to bash LIRR managment.
Perhaps it's due to the frequent starts and stops they'll be making in electric territory, and they nered the better acceleration that a second locomotive would bring.
-Hank
Originally I saw the Empire Service trains in Penn operating as Diesels and idling in the station.
A Long Island Rail Road conductor I know told me (c.1992-3) that he (personally) was filing a complaint that trains in Penn were supposed to be operating under electric power only. I don't know what the authority for this was because Prof. Brennan of Columbia has researched this issue and says there is no law on requiring this.
Anyway, whatever the basis of the conductor's complaint, and whether or not it had an effect, within weeks I noticed the Empire trains leaving Sunnyside with electric power at the head end.
Paul: I too grew up with the belief that diesel power was banned from New York City subway tunnels. Remember the huge fleet of Lo-V Work Motors that were used instead of diesels. However the TA now has a very large diesel fleet for work service.
Possibly this refers to an older law banning steam engines from the tunnels and by extension it was simply assumed it included the diesels when they replaced steam.
MN uses dual power engines into GCT and most of the time now they run electric.For many years they either ran on diesel(though not officially) or an FL-9 would be teamed up with a B-23 diesel the idea being the B-23 would be shut down in the tunnel. The reverse was usually true in tha the B-23 was doing just fine and the FL-9 was deader than the 6 Av El.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The 'Military Industrial Complex' or the 60 has nothing on the MTA/Kawasaki relationship. In the 80s, Kawasaki delivered over 1,000 cars to the transit authority. What ever happened to those TA managers who let those cars get through the warranty with significant defects present? Could one be running the LIRR M of E department. Could still another be now working for kawasaki as a leadperson out at The Hillside Maintenance Facility? Anyone smell a rat here?
To compound matters further, the train that runs with the FL-9s that
passes thru Jamaica at 7:01 am has not been seen all week. I think they call this the Bi-tanic.
Hi .. Does anyone have any info on how many trackworkers will
be needed in the near future.. I'm on the list established several
weeks ago by DCAS... I heard it's a dangerous yet great job..!
Any info appreciated...
Just received the May '99 issue of "Metro" a trade monthly.
"Does High-Speed Rail Have a Future" is an article by Lenny Levine.
Incl. an overhead photo at Bombardier (Plattsburg,NY) plant of three of the new trains under construction. I thought they came in as components to be bolted togather. This shot looks like a lot of work required by folks at upstate NY plant.
A couple of quotes from the multi page article:
Alvin Toffler of "Future Shock" fame said "society is moving in directions which reduce the need for high speed rail..."
Joe Vranich said "high speed rail is being deterred by Amtrak ... redefining high-speed to mean 90 to 110 mph."
The article is worth reading and maybe on-line at:
http://www.transit-center.com
Copyright Disclaimer: Have ID publ. & author & quoted less then 400 words.
Mr t__:^)
If people in the US think High speed rail has no future, it's due more to Amtrak's inability to deliver it than anything. Remember, the origional Metroliner was going to do 150mph, back in the 60's. It never did, and was ultimately replaced by the current Amfleet / AEM-7 combo. Also remember Turbotrain, the Turboliners (saw one in Penn yesterday!), etc. Amtrak appears to be more interested in their money losing long distance trains, than on building / running the kind of point to point high speed rail that could not only be popular in the us, but profitable too. Nevermind the numerous proposed systems that have never materialized - in Texas, Florida, California, etc. I hold no hope for Acela whatsoever. In fact, I believe more than ever that Amtrak should be done away with, and replaced by an agency who's job is more to identify routes, set standards, and encourage private industry to create and run trains on such routes.
Maybe I feel this way only because my train Monday to Hartford was 1.5+ hrs late into Penn, and at least an hour late into Hartford, yet I still had to pay for it. Maybe I feel this way because Amtrak has had 20+ years to do High Speed on the NEC, and they haven't. Amtrak apparently doesn't get it. They seem to think that people takew the train in order to have some magical travel experience ("There's something about a train that magic..."). I sure don't, the majority of people out there sure don't. Most people view it as a means to get from point A to point B, quickly, reliably, comfortably. Unfortunetly, Amtrak has never been all 3 for me.
Why do my friends not take Amtrak? Simple. "It's slow" "It costs too much" "It's always late" the schedule in and out of Hartford is useless for me - often I find myself cramming into a slow bus to New Haven to get Metro-North. The service to Hartford is hardly frequent or reliable enough to be of any use to me.
I could go on. But I'm sure everyone here has heard all of this before. I firmly believe High Speeds rail - real High Speed rail - would be enormously sucessful in the US. But I also firmly believe that Amtrak is unable to deliver it, and that they should be disbanded and replaced with a better means of running the nation's intercity rail system.
Real high speed rail requires new dedicated rights of way, which would be impossible to secure in any area with enough population to make it worthwhile to run the service. It also requires massive government outlays to build, the kind Japan, Germany, France, etc., are happy to give-- but the U.S. isn't going to do that in the forseeable future. It's not a problem with Amtrak (which you blame unfairly for things that weren't its fault), it's a problem with the priorities we give to transportation modes.
And anyway, Amtrak IS pinning its hopes for survival on Acela. Rail passenger associations outside the Northeast are heavily criticizing Amtrak for spending too MUCH time and energy on the Northeast, and not enough on the long-distance trains.
>Real high speed rail requires new dedicated rights of way, which
>would be impossible to secure in any area with enough population to
>make it worthwhile to run the service.
Not really. We secure ROWs for highwaysm, we can do the same for RRs, indeed, it would be easier (cheaper) for RRs given that you don't need to secure as much land. Also, the TGV, etc, do run significant distances on traditional tracks in order to get into cities. But even though they OWN most of the NEC, Amtrak has been unable to deliver high speed rail for the last 20 or so years. Yes, I know, above New York is very curvy, but watch out the front of a Boston bound MBTA train from Providence - straight line trackage. Amtrak could have, should have, electrified this LONG ago. also note the resitriction to 125mph below NYC, because of the long obsolete catenary and power systems.
>It also requires massive
>government outlays to build, the kind Japan, Germany, France, etc.,
>are happy to give-- but the U.S. isn't going to do that in the
>forseeable future.
I'm sure private industry, with government assistance, would be willing to - HSR is profitable. Also read "Derailed - What went wrong, and what to do, about America's passenger rail system" - Amtrak has been a roadblock to a number of HSR systems.
>It's not a problem with Amtrak (which you blame unfairly for things that weren't its fault)
Sure it is. There's no reason I should have to pay for a train that's 1 and a half hours late. Amtrak owns the NEC trackage. They aren't being held for freight trains. I could excuse an occasional lateness, but Amtrak is reliably late. Apparently, they have problems, as Metro-North has better on time performance, as do many European and Japanese systems - late trains are unheard of with the TGV.
>it's a problem with the
>priorities we give to transportation modes.
That I can agree with - but, Amtrak is partly reasponsible for the anti rail attitude in this country because they've don'e such a lousey job with it.
>And anyway, Amtrak IS pinning its hopes for survival on Acela.
They have no hope for survival. They will die in 2002 once the government cuts them loose. The sooner the go, the better, as it will clear the way for a real rail revival in the US.
>Rail passenger associations outside the Northeast are heavily
>criticizing Amtrak for spending too MUCH time and energy on the
>Northeast, and not enough on the long-distance trains.
There's no hope to long distance trains. You'll never increase the ridership between NY and Chicago (for example) with the current mode of operation - it simply takes too long. Instead, Amtrak should run higher speed, point to point, overnight trains between these cites, and cater to the business traveler - Board NY at 7pm, arrive in Chicago at 7am. Do your business in Chicago, board at 7pm, arrive back in NY at 7am. Leave the slow speed "land cruise" operations to RRs that can do it better and cater to that (tiny) nich. The NY to Hartford run is an example of what's wrong with long distance trains - stopping every few minutes to let off 1 or 2 passengers at little towns in the middle of nowhere. Plenty of time is wasted at Wallingford, Meriden, and Berlin because of this.
I agree there are problems with Amtrak. I feel most of these problems are attributable to consistently underfunding it for its entire existence, and poor maintenance on the part of its predecessors.
Rather than address all the other points specifically (this isn't really NYC transit-related, after all, and I'm only an interested observer not an expert), I just want to say that I think there's a good chance that if Amtrak dies there will be no replacement passenger rail system, high-speed or otherwise, in the U.S. I rather doubt even the NEC would survive intact, given how absurdly difficult it is to coordinate interstate transportation policy (just look at the Port Authority's political struggles, or the state of CT's never-ending threats to cut Metro-North funding -- and these are with only 2 states involved!). The support for spending huge amounts of money on the kind of high-speed system Vranich envisions just isn't there right now, no matter how much you or I would like to see it.
Maybe Amtrak should die and be replaced by mass transit operations that are intrA city now, but could expand to fill a intER city need.
e.g. MTA (incl LIRR & Metro-North), NJT, SEPTA, METRA, etc.
So how would Acela be interagrated into a MTA/NJT system ... David speaks to this, i.e.
[I rather doubt even the NEC would survive intact, given how absurdly difficult it is to coordinate interstate transportation policy (just look at the Port Authority's political struggles, or the state of CT's never-ending threats to cut Metro-North funding]
So, if we throw away Amtrak would we just get it back in another form?
Lets hope the high paid suits realy want to make the system work for the public good and would it be too much to hope that they have a sincere desire to improve and expand it ?
Mr t__:^)
You might see some growth/restoration of inter-city traffic after Amtrak dies (from one city to another relatively nearby city for instance) but the long-distance lines like the Empire Builder or the Silver Meteor will disappear forever. What we'll end up with is a bunch of short, heavily used intercity corridors, but you can just kiss coast-to-coast passenger routes good-bye. IMO Amtrak is the only thing standing in the way of that future, for good or for ill.
[Rail passenger associations outside the Northeast are heavily criticizing Amtrak for spending too MUCH time and energy on the Northeast, and not enough on the long-distance trains.]
But if they can't make it work between Wash DC & Boston where they have fairly short distances & a high concentration of population, they aren't going to be able to make it work anywhere in the US !
They have to prove that they can run trains on time, at reasonable cost, and draw in new customers (away from airplanes/cars).
Long distance ... don't they do it at a profit in Europe ? To repeat what Philip said ... they just don't get it !
Mr t__:^)
They have to prove that they can run trains on time, at reasonable cost, and draw in new customers (away from airplanes/cars).
The Metroliners successfully draw customers away from airplanes for NY-DC business trips, even with its high fares. With new equipment and faster running times, I don't see why they can't do the same for NY-Boston, even with a name like Acela. :-)
Long distance ... don't they do it at a profit in Europe ?
I think only short and medium distance high-speed lines make money anywhere in the world (not counting tourist or luxury "land cruise" operations like the Orient Express), and their profits are generally used to subsidize money-losing operations elsewhere on the system. Someone feel free to point out exceptions ...
[If people in the US think High speed rail has no future, it's due more to Amtrak's inability to deliver it than anything]
[Why do my friends not take Amtrak? Simple. "It's slow" "It costs too much" "It's always late"]
Philip makes a number of points that I agree with. Amtrak use to blaim their problems on the freight railroads, but that's a tired argument. I too agree that they apparently just don't get it.
Should they be disbanded and replaced with some other govermnent agency or "for profit" operator/owner organization ? Maybe, part of the problem is the political factor, i.e. Amtrak has to keep begging Congress for money. That was suppose to end, i.e. they were suppose to become profitable. So, what's the OTHER problem ... too many blood sucking suits on the top, bad decisions, unreliable equipment, lack of union cooroperation? I'll leave it to others to comment on what the problem(s) is.
Will Acela be a success ? Not unless they've fixed most of the problems ... a new train & a new name isn't going to do it.
Mr t__:^)
1 the # of profitable passenger operations in the world(fully allocated capital as well as operationalcosts) basicaly NONE! Airlines don't pay for the flight controllers or the real estate tax losses to the localities which build airports on public land. This whole fantasy about profit is both boring and old. There isn't any because the capital costs are huge. Expecting Amtrak to make profit is like expecting a revived BMT to do so AND pay its share of fixing Manh Br. 2 Yes Amtrak is lousy both NEC and long distance--but some of us prefer to ride trains over ALL other modes of transport and will vote to "p___ money down a rat hole" rather than take the bus or the plane. 3. If Amtrak had a stable and sufficient budget and were not burdened with ridiculous contract provisions(see MBTA maintenace thread about how even if they lose a contract they have to keep paying the no longer working employees). AND had a management with both brains and drive it might could work much better. Note that as a culture, we in the US tolerate incompetence and abject failure from large parts of our society with little or no repercussions. The fantasy of capitalism is, you screw up you go bankrupt--unless you are big enough tocon the government into bailing you out. The failure rules only apply to the corner store not the chains(with rare exceptions like Caldor). Am I angry at Amtrak for its ineptitude? You bet. But with the exception of segments of the NEC thety are victims of dispatchers who can't even get their own company trains to arrive on time. And the implied attitude is even though Amtrak trains make money for the host rr's they still stiff them regularly.
David touches on many of the systematic problems that plague the rail industry.
My point related to the fact that the Washington politations don't seem to be motivated to solve these problems & put rail on an equal footing with airlines & the trucking industies. Their shortsightness prevents them from seeing the importance of rail in the nations future (passenger as well as freight). The same problem happened with US airlines that flew overseas, but that's another story.
Back to my point ... if Washington can't/won't fix it, what about regional governments. They seem to be doing a better job and taxpayers can see how it benifits them, at least the commuter segment.
But what if their role is alowed to expand, can you say interurban ?
One thing that has changed in the past hundred years is that a lot of folks don't need to go from big city to big city. They may go from big city to suburb or suburb to suburb. The current rail network can't handle that very efficently (would need to use rail & bus or loose a lot of time waiting for a connecting train).
That aside, there are still a lot more folks that are driving from suburbs to the big cities ... an expanded inter-city mass transit could serve them. This might mean the end of long haul passenger trains, but as long a freight uses these rails it could always come back.
Philip, do you think Metro-North could serve Hartford better ?
Mr t__:^)
The doors on the F train at 14th Street and 6th Ave. Open on the left, while doors in local stations seem to usually open on the right. Can anyone explain this???
I can only speculate that the position of the IND 6th Ave Line platforms at 14th Street is related to the location of the previously existing PATH station there and/or the provision that was made for the subsequent addition of the 6th Ave express tracks.
I was just there last week. It has the configuration of being an island platform but the L train is in the middle. If you take the L train to 6 Av you will see what I am talking about.... There are seperate transfer points for the Queens and Bklyn bound trains....
There are probably other places in the system where local trains have the doors open on the left for local stations. The uptown IND 8th Ave local stops beginning at 72nd St and north come to mind.
I believe that the 8th Ave Local has platforms on the left because of Central Park.
The PATH train is a good guess about 14th street but still can't quite picture the how and why of it.
I can think of 2 other stations where local trains stop where you'd traditionally expect an express:
47-50th Sts - Rockefeller Center, heading downtown. D express trains stop on the "local" side, F locals stop on the "express" side.
125th St (4/5/6) - 6 locals stop on the "express" side while 4 & 5 expresses stop on the "local" side.
--Mark
Also Utica Ave on the IRT Uptown Platform is also like that.
Kingston and Nostrand on the uptown side of the 3 is like that as well......
Also, the island platform at Grand Army Plaza on the same line.
Another unusual situation is at Nostrand/Fulton on the 'A/C'. The express platform is on the UPPER level at fare control level, and the local platform is on the LOWER leve. According to the description of the 8th Avenue Line in the TRAINS AND STATIONS section, it was built this way to make provision for a planned Bedford Avenue line.
In both other instances of separate levels for local and express service, 59/Lex and 86/Lex, the locals are on the UPPER level. Of course, this was due to the narrow width of Lexington Avenue.
>Strange platform configuration at 14th on F<
I believe this is due to the PATH station being located between the uptown and downtown tracks (the express IND tracks go under the PATH tracks if I recall). check out the description in the Line-by-Line section of this site for more info.
Mike
The PATH line was rebuilt along with the 6th Ave construction. This was the way it was designed. The 23rd st station has the platforms on the right side but also has the PATH between the tracks.
It was a conscious design decision to deal with pre-existing underground infrastructure - Water Tunnel #1. This water main of water mains was already in place when service was planned for 6th Ave. Rather than trying to move half of NYC's water supply to facilitate the subway, 14th St was built around the main, with the platform sidewalls towards the main and the track as far as possible away from it. If I can find the reference to this in my stuff, I'll post it over the weekend.
Thanks!!!
How deep is the water main under 5th Avenue??? Might a subway line run over or under the Main???
5th Ave. has never seen rail service of any kind, and most likely never will. Its Chicago counterpart, Michigan Ave., also has never seen rail service of any kind. Both thoroughfares are associated with pomp, wealth, and prestige. Not to mention NIMBYs, no doubt.
That and there's a water main running underneath it.
[(Why no subway line under 5th Avenue) That and there's a water main running underneath it.]
Which water main burst with spectacular effect near 20th Street in January 1998. Fifth Avenue was undermined to the point that a huge crater formed and gas lines exploded. In addition to damaging a number of buildings, the flooding caused temporary service disruptions over a block away on the Sixth Avenue and Broadway lines. It's safe to say that had there been a subway running under Fifth Avenue, the consequences would have been severe. Take the 1956(?) Astor Place flooding on the Broadway line, and multiply it several times.
The Astor Place flooding in - you got it right - 1956 was the result of firefighters trying to put out a major blaze at Wannamaker's. Several million gallons of water later, the subway floor on the Lex gave way; however, the I-beams between the tracks remained intact. A 6 train of R-17s was pulling into Astor Place when it happened; the first car went down. Luckily, it happened after the passengers had been evacuated. The train had gone far enough into the station so that the conductor was able to open all the doors. The 8th St. station on the BMT was flooded, but service was restored much sooner on that line. I think the Lex was repaired in a week or so.
"Its Chicago counterpart, Michigan Ave., also has never seen rail service of any kind. Both thoroughfares are associated with pomp, wealth, and prestige. Not to mention NIMBYs, no doubt."
I don't think that's a fair assessment, except for the "pomp, wealth, and prestige" part. (^: Though there is no train line UNDER Michigan Avenue, there are station entrances on Michigan Avenue for the Metra Electric/South Shore lines at their Randolph Street and VanBuren Street stations. Also, the Loop L runs parallel to Michigan Avenue one block west in Wabash.
The 1922 plan for expansion of the elevated system included a Michigan Avenue subway route. See the map of the 1922 proposals at:
http://www.suba.com/~scottn/explore/scrapbks/elevated/el_map_2.htm
I looked in, thinking you were talking about the 5th Ave el in Brooklyn. Oh well, an interesting historical transit note on 5th Ave in Manhattan was the use of the doubledecker busses on the avenue until 1949/50. I guess we have to talk to the bus historians about this subject.
"...an interesting historical transit note on 5th Ave in Manhattan was the use of the doubledecker busses on the avenue until 1949/50."
Then that would be another parallel between New York's Fifth Avenue and Chicago's Michigan Avenue. The Chicago Motor Coach Company operated double-decker buses on the boulevards of Chicago, including Michigan Boulevard, until the 1950s. This included many express bus routes that ran from the densely-populated northern neighborhoods along the lake and came together on Michigan Avenue. These routes still exist, basically, under the CTA.
While Chicago Surface Lines had the franchise from the city to operate on the streets, the Park District (separate from the city) controlled the boulevard system and gave that franchise to Chicago Motor Coach. When the CTA was created in 1947, Chicago Rapid Transit and Chicago Surface Lines were subsumed into CTA but Chicago Motor Coach survived as a separate entity for a few more years before it too was bought out by CTA.
The connection between Fifth Ave. Coach Company and Chicago Motor Coach is not accidental. Both were under the common ownership of The Omnibus Corporation for many years, and operated nearly-identical double deck buses. Both companies marketed their routes as higher class alternatives to parallel subways, els, and trolleys. In New York, Fifth Avenue's buses proclaimed "Go the Motor Coach Way"; in Chicago, "The Boulevard Route" adorned the buses. The last Chicago double deckers ran in 1950; in New York, 1953 was the last year the two level buses operated.
In 1952 CTA bought out Chicago Motor Coach. In 1954 the Omninbus Corp sold Fifth Avenue and its partner company NYC Omnibus to its local New York executives. In 1956 this groups purchased Surface Transportation. After new owners bought the combined Fifth Ave/Surface operations in 1962, a strike occurred that resulted in the formation of MABSTOA.
This probably belongs on the Bus Board - but the question was raised here..
I see my friend John Bredin the attorney is back. John, tell me about Al Capone's secret subway which was owned by the telephone company and was a freight railroad for 60 miles under chicago. It's has been said that Al Capone and his boys would escape the famous Lexington Hotel on Michigan Avenue and 22nd Street during a raid. What's doing with the restoration of the Lexington Hotel.
That's the word from Newsday. "We don't want it, we don't need it, etc." The only route they said they might consider is having the inbound LIRR (from Long Island) extended from Shea Stadium to the airport. You'd take the subway to Penn Station to Shea/Flushing, then transfer to another LIRR train. It would take, oh, about two hours.
They're hiring lawyers and consultants to sue. Key members of the City Council are on their side, and they are about to turn down the JFK link.
People also are against the existing Astoria line. If we don't extend it to the airport, I say shut it down.
Is the resistance because of:
1)The two block proposed extension of the elevated structure will permanently change those two blocks?
2)The construction will disrupt the neighborhood for a while?
Who is against the Astoria Line as it now stands? The only people I know who have lived in Astoria did so because there is direct subway access to Manhattan. Without that I'm sure property values would drop. Is this what the neighborhood wants, or what a loud minority wants?
I'm going to attend the public meeting in Manhattan on this topic tonight. I wonder what people there will have to say. Any other SubTalk people planning on attending?
Here is the URL for the meeting location and time:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/communications/meeting-lag.htm
(Is the resistance because of the proposed two-block extension). Newsday says the folks were against the vastly more expensive LIRR/BQE version as well.
(Who is against the current Astoria Line). The people who showed up. The people who use the line did not show up, just the retired civil servants who are part of the Queens political machine who couldn't care less if the city went bust tomarrow because they're on their way to Florida.
That's the problem with these public hearings. They do not represent the public.
I'm going to attend the public meeting in Manhattan on this topic tonight. I wonder what people there will have to say. Any other SubTalk people planning on attending?
Yup.
I was there, but unfortunately couldn't stay for the whole meeting. (I was the guy in the Conductor uniform, if you were there). The few people I heard seemed to be against the proposal strictly on the "it'll mess with the neighborhood" theory. Some wanted the LGA ext to come from the 7 line (as if this isn't overcrowded enough) and others from the LIRR (the long round-about way). One person, who came with charts that no one could see, had anew and different approach - stations in upper Manhattan and then suddenly stopping at LGA, no explanations of how it crossed the river. There was one conversation that I eaves-dropped on that complained there was no 3rd track at and south of Queensboro Plaza for this new service to run on. This project sounds like it will once again wither away in the course of being studied to death.
Unfortunately, the 7 route is about the only way the LaGuardia link is ever going to be built, because you can split it off at the Corona flyover and run it past Shea Stadium -- where nobody lives -- and then alongside the westbound lanes of the Grand Central next to Flushing Bay/Long Island Sound -- where only fish live (hopefully).
It's a roundabout way, and as has been posted, there isn't a hell of a lot of extra space available on the Flushing Line, even if they were to run 12-hour inbound/12 outbound express service. But the logical plan to extend the N from Astoria has just too many NIMBYs and the lawyers in the way to make it feasible for anytime in the near future.
Forget doing it over unpopulated areas - environmental impact studies!
It was mostly a parade of people with the general point of "Good idea to link LGA to the subway, just don't do it where I live." This included people living near Sunnyside yards opposing the Sunnyside option, people living near the Astoria line opposing the N extension, and people living near the Flushing line opposing any 7 train option. People also complained about poor service on the N, and several speakers suggested that no business traveler is ever going to get on a NYC subway train to get to/from the airport. Others complained that the service was aimed only at LGA-Manhattan travelers and didn't help people get to most of Queens, Brooklyn, or the Bronx. Several speakers suggested the MTA decide not to build anything to LGA at all, despite opening remarks from the MTA that "no build" has negative consequences (a point reiterated by a few of the speakers).
What surprised me was that several people actually spoke in favor of one or the other of the current MTA options. One person suggested giving residents living near the proposed N extension a tax incentive. Another supported the N extension because it stops at the Marine Air Terminal. One speaker, near the end, vehemently urged the MTA to build something-- anything at all-- to get people to LGA, criticizing the NIMBYism that most of the meeting was about.
One thing I found interesting was how several people contradicted themselves arguing against both the Astoria exension and options that only connect midtown to LaGuardia (LIRR) while still recognizing the need for a link.
Of course, the best way to give queens access to the airport would be the proposed Astoria link but no one seemed to recognize this.
i'm sure if a LIRR extension were proposed there wouldn't be as much protest as in the extension of the N to LGA. I've always thought a subway extension to La Guardia and Kennedy versus the current fad of Light Rail. A subway link would give the ONE ride needed to connect wil virtually all business and commerce in this city. A light rail or railroad connection would still mean a need to transfer to a subway or cab connection to reach ones destinationo. I'm not saying a subway link would put everyone at a persons destinations doorstep but it seems more feasible in one form or another.
Excerpt from David Chui's post:
"One speaker, near the end, vehemently urged the MTA to build something-- anything at all-- to get people to LGA, criticizing the NIMBYism that most of the meeting was about."
And I thought this NIMBYism was just a thing of Miami-Dade County in the 80's when building Metrorail, hence the reason it goes from nowhere to nowhere...
NIMBYism was born on Staten Island in the mid 70's.
-Hank
How about NIMBYs in the Boston area? I thought that the Red Line was not extended past Alewife station because of community opposition, mostly in the town of Arlington. This must have been in the 1970s. Is there anybody with knowledge of Boston or the MBTA who has any info. about this?
Hi there, Boston here.
Yes, you are correct. There is a right-of-way through Arlington out to Lexington, which had been proposed for extension of the Red Line. NIMBYism and lack-of-moneyism both killed it.
Thanks for the info. Is it true that the right-of-way is now a walking trail? I know there was a single round-trip commuter service out to Bedford until about 1977. It's too bad a DMU or diesel light rail service couldn't be developed now.
If the link doesn't stop at the Marine Terminal (where the shuttles leave from) there's really no point to building it.
-Hank
The Marine Air Terminal is the home of the Delta shuttle. The USAirways Shuttle has its home at the USAirways terminal on the east end of the airport. The point is that in order for an airport service to be effective, mass transit must stop within easy reach of all terminals.
I went to the presentation last night in midtown. It wasn't nearly the lynching that happened in Astoria on Tuesday.
I spoke with an MTA Rep off line last night and there is NO WAY they will build a branch off of the 7. The only way they could would split current service levels between the branch and the airport - halving service beyond the branch. This really isn't an option anyone will accept (except for those against the extension in Astoria).
The problem the publicly proposed LIRR option is that penn station doesn't have the capacity for frequent service and the LIRR connection to GCT is going to happen any time soon.
The MTA is now investigating two options. The Astoria exention and a branch off of the N/R after Queens Plaza that would:
Follow the norhtern edge of the Sunnyside yard and take the Amtrak right of way to the BQE West.
Fly over the the BQE West and follow the BQE east to the Grand Central Parkway - following this in to the Airport.
This alignment would use only existing ROWs and would certainly be quicker than the creaky Astoria el.
As for potential NIMBY opposition to this, anyone along this route already has either a massive highway or a rail line in their front yard so their arguements would be weaker.
Unfortunately this route would have to share 59th st tunnel with the N/R limiting service between the two. Also it's more than twice as much new track and more challenging construction. It would cost Billions more although no one would bring this up at the meeting. So if they choose this route, it will become the next 2nd ave. Subway - demand acknowledged but no money to build it.
Cheers to the man in the red shirt from Queens who got up and said I'm a queens resident and I want the Astoria exention. Just build it because doing nothing is worse.
One telling incident. The loudest opponenet of the extension at the meeting offered to give his friends in Astoria a ride because his car was parked right out front - quite a feat in Midtown at rush hour.
The separate train option is no option at all. You have 25,000 employees in the vicinity of the airport -- 50,000 trips -- and 80,000 passengers arrivals and departures. That's 130,000 trips per day -- in all directions. Assuming the subway would serve commuters from Western Queens and Manhattan, a 25 percent capture rate would be optimistic. That's 15,000 per day in each direction. At even 300 people per train, that's just 50 trains.
For a separate train you have two options. Infrequent service (every 20 minutes or so) which more than wipes out any speed benefit you get from avoiding the Astoria line. Or frequent service with very few passengers and hefty subsidies and/or high prices, which also forces you to cut service on the N/R.
As for other other options, they manage to combine high construction costs, high operating subsidies, infrequent service, and long travel times -- a virtual miracle of stupidity.
Add three or four trains per hour to the Astoria line, in contrast, and you have frequent service both to the airport and to Astoria. The travel time would be 30 to 35 minutes from LaGuardia to Times Square and 45 to 50 mintues to Lower Manhattan, hardly a long haul.
There are only two blocks of residences adjacent to the ROW. If you ignore the people demanding the removal of the existing Astoria line and spend $50 million you could give them each $500,000. If we can't do this, we might as well forget it.
If the MTA was going to do that, they might as well build a link from the E/F express tracks where it reconnects with the local at Northern Blvd. and Broadway, and follow the BQE and the Grand Central from there to LGA.
You would have three lines on the express track for a while, but that's not unique (the B/D/Q have been doing it for years) and before it got to Queens Plaza the line could split off to the 63rd St. tunnel, and share that with whatever local service to Manhattan replaces the G.
In fact, moving the Q back to the Broadway express and running it to LGA via 63rd St. would probably make the line more attractive, since it would be an express run from the airport into midtown Manhattan.
Or you can connect the Northern Blvd Express track to the Sunnyside tracks -- adjacent to it -- and you don't need the 63 Street tunnel.
How can you say to shut down the Astoria line? Why don't we shut down your subway line? I bet you don't live in Astoria. This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a while on Subtalk.
The N line is vital to the Astoria neighborhood. The trains are crowded almost 24 hours a day, demonstrating how many people use the line. Imagine if we all had to trek up to Steinway for the R train - it's crowded enough already and I really don't think it could stand all of the N passengers too. And I wish people would stop bitching about how crowded the #7 line is because due to the increased number of trains, it's always less crowded than the N train.
-----> Here's my idea for the LaG link - let's make the N train an underground train and extend it to LaG underground. Yes, the construction would be disruptive, but it would only be a few years and in the end, it would make everyone happy because the el would be gone. Plus, you could continue service on the el while its underground counterpart was being built.
(Let's put the whole Astoria Line underground) And I know how to pay for it -- eliminate public education in Brooklyn, or at least in those parts of Brooklyn which are not predominantly white. Either that, or let's eliminate subway service in part of Brooklyn.
You know I'm sick and tired of the "winners" being the "whiners" in this city. It's going to come around, believe me. And I'll be here with a load of data to show some future poltico that what ever unfairness they do is justified by the past.
[(Let's put the whole Astoria Line underground) And I know how to pay for it -- eliminate public education in Brooklyn, or at least in those parts of Brooklyn which are not predominantly white.]
Isn't that the (unstated) goal of the mayor's voucher proposal?
[Either that, or let's eliminate subway service in part of Brooklyn.]
Given the condition of the Manhattan Bridge, that probably will happen soon enough ...
Has anyone been able to find any of the new ones in any place other than the Transit Museum Gift Shops? So far I have only been able to get one of the 7 (Brooklyn - green version.
I went to about a dozen of the stores listed by the MTA that in the lower Manhattan area where I work. The only one that these stores have is the Cloisters holder.
I asked several of the shopkeepers as to why they don't have the new ones. The answer was basically the same each time: No one has come in to buy the one they have so they have not ordered any new ones.
Somehow I think the MTA blew it this time. They should have let CitySearch sell them like they are doing with the Subway theme cards.
This is my first time on subtalk & I have been reading the Express Expansion Service that other people put on subtalk but I would really like to know something & I also heard that you work for NYCT Operations Planning for subways, I would like to know on when F express service will be returning in Brooklyn, it seems that this was promised to riders this entire decade but this promise was broken & I heard that riders in Carroll Gardens don't want half of locals bypassing their stop at Carroll St, well if the proposed F express service was not done because of this, well, this is not fair to riders in Southern Brooklyn who have to deal with a longer commute & Carroll Gardens residents are only & few stops away from Manhattan so do F train riders in Southern Brooklyn a favor, restore the express service, this could relieve overcrowing on the Brighton line, relieve traffic congestion on the Prospect Expressway & with the Manhattan Bridge issues.
I would like to know on when F express service in Brooklyn will be restored & the main reasons on why it wasn't restored or can it be restored as part of the NYSDOT Gowanus Expressway transit mitigation project. Please post on subtalk.
Sincerely,
Timothy
I think the last time someone ask him that question, he said there are no plans for a Culver express.
Yes, and I explained, in detail, why.
You expect a lot of things to happen just to save 5 minutes in running time which will inconvenience a lot of your fellow riders.
Hey isn't the difference between the 7 local and Express all of 3 minutes?
Bill,
It's a bit more than 5 minutes - the last time I was on a train using the express tracks between Jay and Church, the time saved was between 7 1/2 and 8 minutes. While that does not sound like much, it is enough of a difference to encourage people to use the severely overcrowded Brighton line instead, thereby inconveniencing all those riders. Additionally, while having their stops skipped by some trains may incovenience some residents of Carrol Gardens (sniff, sniff), their insistance on special treatment (the effective abandonment of a perfectly servicable express line to decrease their wait time), has inconvenienced the entire population of a large swath of South Brooklyn for the past several decades. Forgive me if I sound a bit (or more than a bit) unsympathetic, but as one of those inconvenienced, this is a pet peve. While I do know that you are obviously better versed technically than I am, I disagree with you rather strongly on this point.
Sir, I agree, whole heartedly, however, it ain't happening. The political clout just isin't there. I'd like to see the G run to Church Av. too. This would give G crews a place to get off the train and rest, use the bathroom, etc. Also the lower level relay tracks would allow storage of the extra equipment not used outside of the rush hours. But it would lengthen the trip, and the TA would need a few extra crews, God forbid. And that COSTS.
Like I said. It ain't happening.
What do you mean extra crews??
G is goin OPTO 24/7 when they cut back to Court Square. With the cut back there should be enough crews since they aren't going all the way out to 71st.
Can G run OPTO past Smith/9th? Don't recall the stations and if they are on curve or incline. If the had to install TV's then they woulnd't do it. That would help the operating crew.
The B of T blew-it in 1940 with the closing of the World's Fair Railroad. The World's Fail Terminal station could have used as park n' ride and extended to LaGuardia Airport (North Beach). Boy were they stupid.
I'll bet Robert Moses had something to do with it.
Good thought, you are probably right that the Great Robert Moses had something to do with that.
Yes he did. Moses was at the height of his power from the late 30s until the early 60s, and the Van Wyck was built to link the new Idlewild Airport to the already-built Whitestone Bridge. Moses loved building bridges and hated tunnels, since nobody could see those monuments of engineering, and came up with the parkway system back in the 20s so people go out Sunday driving from the city into the lovely countryside of Long Island and Westchester County. Then as more people moved out into the lovely countryside and used those roads to commute into Manhattan five days a week, they had to build more roads, and then more roads, and there wasn't much thought given to extending the subway anywhere during that time.
In the face of the power that Moses exercised, you can't blame the Board of Transportation
Don't forget that Moses refused to allow the reopening of the IND line to the unauthorized 'World's Fair' in 1964-65, using some of the right-of-way for his highway projects. He was also responsible, as highway coordinator after WWII, for narrowing the median strip on the VanWyck from the Board of Transportation proposal of around 50' down to the 8' or so it it is now, so the two subway tracks coming from Queens Boulevard could never be built.
Let's take back two lanes from the rubber-tired crowd and put tracks down the center of the Van Wyck and call them the "Robert Moses Memorial Transitway" so he's got another good excuse to turn over in his grave or urn or wherever he is.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
[Don't forget that Moses refused to allow the reopening of the IND line to the unauthorized 'World's Fair' in 1964-65, using some of the right-of-way for his highway projects. He was also responsible, as highway coordinator after WWII, for narrowing the median strip on the VanWyck from the Board of Transportation proposal of around 50' down to the 8' or so it it is now, so the two subway tracks coming from Queens Boulevard could never be built.]
Were there ever serious plans to build a temporary IND line to the 1964-65 World's Fair? It would seem to be that the demand just wouldn't be there, as in the 25 years since the prior Fair there had been such an enormous growth in suburbanization and auto use.
There was discussion in general around the City at the time of the'64-'65 Moses Fair about reopening the IND World's Fair line; probably a check of the newspapers at the time would show the progress of those discussions. But aside from whether suburbanization and increased use of automobiles precluded the need for it, Moses simply would not allow it. He did permit enlarging the Flushing and LIRR stations, but grabbed the old IND R-O-W for his highways.
If you look at the history of the highways in that area, he built a huge complex of multi-lane highways around the Fairgrounds, but they narrowed into the older routes as soon as you got away from the Fair. That provided an excuse for more reconstruction and widening with the result that more cars started using the newer roads, creating a need for more highways so that more cars could use them, etc., etc.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
(Highways generate trips). People bought cars because they could, but the share of NYC households with autos in unchanged since 1960.
You can also blame Robert Moses, in part, for the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn in 1957. O'Malley (whom I still hate) wanted to build a new ballpark adjacent to the LIRR Atlantic terminal with private funds. He thought that fans would be able to take the IRT, BMT, IND, LIRR and numerous bus lines to the new park. It was a great location at that time. Of course, Moses hated mass transit, especially the LIRR, and saw to it (with the fecklessness of Mayor Wagner) that this would never see the light of day.
It is interesting that the site that O'Mally sought (the old meat -packing establishments site) would lie fallow until the mid-90's. And that is the rest of the story.
Carl M.
I'm suprised that most leads out of yards point towards Manhattan. I would have thought they'd point to the outer terminal of the line so a train could begin its first trip of the day without having to reverse twice (ditto for returning to the yard after the last trip).
Or do most trains originate from a midpoint station?
Bill
Most yard leads are not at the end of the line but are usually closer than not. The two notable exceptions I can think of are livonia Yard which is at the end of the livonia Line and Stillwell yard which is at the end of the D/Q. Most of the yard leads do point in the direction of the farthest terminal although some (like Jamaica and Pitkin) have leads in both directions. The curious thing is that some yard leads, like Corona, point in an illogical direction since every move in and out of main st. to the yard must be a reverse move.
The Concourse yard also had leads that go either direction.
Having the leads point toward Manhattan is VERY logical. Not all the passengers board at the one, two, or more stations further out than the yard. Trains that are already in service can pick up the majority of the loads at the outlying stations, while a put-in train can start fresh further in and lighten the loads, and keep everything more on schedule.
I can't imagine how I forgot Concourse yard - a place I have a real passion for. Back to the issue: Unfortunately, from an operations standpoint, most yard leads are facing the wrong direction. A #7 train leaving the yard and going into service at Main St. must come up the lead, change directions and go into Main Street. Unless the trains are 'double ended' or go into service somewhere mid-line, this is very inefficient. As bad as this is, it's worse when it comes time to lay up trains. Every train that's layed up in Corona must be a reverse move. The 'Conga Line to get into the yard can be horrendous on a day when the Railroad is bad. By contrast, a train leaving Livonia Yard must pass through the terminal. Yards like Jamaica give the most flexibility. If you go out on 9 or 10 leads, you go to Parsons/Archer or 179th St while if you go out on 5 or 6 lead, you go to Continental Ave.
During the morning rush, there are a number of 7 trains that drop out at 111th St and go straight into the yard. I would imagine that the same thing happens again during the PM rush, as well as some runs that terminate at Willets Pt.
Yes indeed-
Most local trains during the pm rush hour terminate @ Willets pt.
well one could also say that 240th yard and Mosholu yards also have leads towards the city and for most part many put ins relay at either 238th st or Bedford Park respectively. same for 239st yard many trains at this location relay at 238st W.P road and pulled back into 241 st. Many 5 trains out of 239 yard weekdays go inservice at 238th st WP road. Its true that a put in a couple of stations ahead of a terminal will lighten a rush hour load since many terminals end in bumping blocks which at times backs up the road. At New Lots putins from the yard are many and in some cases trains from the road are relayed into Livonia yard to unclog the terminal.
2 and 5 trains use the Livonia yard in the morning and evening rush hours. It is easier to get back on the road and besides, no yards at the Bush
Thats also the same for Westchester Sqaure. One lead points to manhattan which during the week is for Parkchester Put ins and one lead faceing Pelham Bay Park.
There was a TV show on the TLC channel on NYCT last. They said the Control Center depicted at Jay Street is High Tech. The current Control Center does not control any interlockings and only a few locations on the IRT indicate track circuit indications. It's a joke.
I was just on a site with a photograph captioned "Women's subway car, NYC". It was an old photo(the car had ceiling fans). This used to be the system in NYC?
The Hudson and Manhattan Railroad (H & M) , presently the PATH, had a car exclusively for women. This was just after it opened in 1908. The IRT, BMT or IND never had cars for exclusively for women like the H & M.
The IRT supposedly had cars exclusively for women when it first opened in 1904. I don't know how long this lasted.
Bob Sklar
was there any trains out yesterday (5/11) and today (5/12) by bay ridge? because I saw 2 buses that said subway shuttle on their destination sign.
laterz
blackdevl
Looking for lamps,old R1- R6 fans, ETC... header dest signs etc ,
or even a front clip of any car w/front door and glass and maybe with a motor mans cab and hardware. and if anyone knows whens the
next scraping? and of the next car type ?
Thank you in advance for any info.......
Any chance that some technical research was done to make such a scenerio plausible?
Also, does anyone know if full-scale (ala "The Fugitive") or miniature trains are going to be used during the wreckage scenes in this flick?
It's TV!!! 10 to 1 there will be NO accuracy during at least 45 minutes of the show. The pre-press is lurid, because it's a SWEEPS MONTH!!
What I find funny is that GE can never seem to understand why any US utilities want to buy their nice (and safe) nuclear power plants. Meanwhile, NBC is busy airing nuclear disaster movies.
It's MAY SWEEPS, this is when TV advertising rates are set for next season (they compare it to November Sweeps).
I don't know what to do since I'll be working Sunday, I have two VCR's, do I tape Train, Joan Arc and/or XFiles??
Tape Joan and the X-Files, then call in sick.
Now, Steve, how would you like it if some of YOUR guys called in sick, that's why I have 3 TV's &VCR's ;~) OVERTIME RULES!
Actually, GE DID get the miniseries sanitized, the train's cargo is now hazardous waste, freedom of the press belongs to he who owns one Big Brother is a toothless tiger, FEAR big business.
Which "Fugitive" ? The TV show used models and MAD magazine even did a spoof of that where the cartoon panel showed 3-rail track complete with "lockon" while the movie used some NICE large scale models for the actual collision scene and used carefully placed loco hulks (Courtesy of Norfolk Southern) for the aftermath scenes
It appears that DRPA will be boosting PATCO fares this year, the first since 1983. More details will follow.
Of course, the line remains a bargain. And, if you know the trick, you can railfan it on a round trip ride for a one-way fare.
What will the new fare structure be?
They want to up the fare from $1.20 from CC to Lindenwold, to $1.40.
The tolls on four area bridges owned by the Delaware River Port Authority(DRPA) will go up too(including the Ben Franklin Bridge).
The details on the hike are not ironed out just yet but word is that it may include 3 small hikes over three years. The bridge tolls are proposed to jump from the current $2 to $3 round trip but the coming EZ Pass will reduce this for frequent users.
I'm not sure of the current fare structure but the Center City to Lindenwold one way hasn't been $1.20 for some time. It's more like $1.80 if memory serves me correctly.
Is the trick to purchse a one way ticket within Phila only, ride to one end of the line, remain within the turnstile area, and then return to a Center City Phila station?
From my experience, remaining within the turnstile area is easy - the last time I took PATCO, I was trapped for 10 minutes in the system because the turnstile wouldn't take my farecard. Didn't wanna jump the turnstile because I figured that would just somehow get me thrown in jail. I guess the charge would be unauthorized exit?
The trick is to purchase a one-way fare and ride anywhere as long as you like as long as, when you exit, you don't use the same station that you entered (NOT the same turnstile or same station entrance - the same STATION). For example, you could buy a Phila-only ticket (75 cents) at 8th-Market, ride to Lindenwold, stay on the train and ride back to Phila and exit at any of the other 3 Phila stops. If you try to exit at 8th-Market, you'll get caught by the system. Some folks used to think if you used a different turnstile bank you could circumvent this, but don't count on it.
By the way, I wouldn't recommend this for several reasons, the foremost being that we, as railfans, should always follow the rules and do the right thing. PATCO itself, however, promoted this many times in the past as a way to see the Delaware River waterfront (not lately).
I went on another railfan trip today. Sort of..... I went to visit a friend. She lived in the Bx and I lived in Brooklyn so it turned out to be a railfan trip. Took the 3 R62A# 1961 no railfan view. At Utica, there was 2 waiting on the express track but it was going local. Took it to Nevins where I picked up a 5. R26 #7833. I was so excited. My first Bronx thru express. Rode through Lex. Then got to 3Av. I couldt wait. The expree run s real nice. I just wish I did not have to get off to change back to a 2. There was some kind of trackwork on the express track. Got off @ 225. Return on R33 #9146. This train had a #6 route map inside. Thru the Bx, three 4 trains and three 3 trains on the exprees track. Change at 135 and took 3 all the way home. The Lenox stations look good, especially 110 with the mosaic painting. The express run between 72 and 42 was excellent except for the timer at 50. Safety comes first!! The run from 34 to 14 was good. We clocked 42mph before entering 14. Passed through Park Pl. Yhe side walls looked done. Major track work between Atlantic and Franklin . The elevated structure on Livonia is getting rehabilited.
1. What is going on on the express track between E.180 and 241?
2. Waht are 3 and 4 trains doing on the White Plains Rd line?
3. How come at Jackson Av, the signals are very close to each other?
Hi Mike! I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability...
1. What is going on on the express track between E.180 and 241?
What you've probably seen appears to be trackwork on m track but is really not. The TA contractors are beginning to replace the aging IRT signal system north of 180 St to the bumping blocks at 241 St. This work is on all three tracks, not just the express track. Eventually the line south of 180 St to 149 St Grand Concourse will get the same treatment. Didn't you notice the new track circuit devices that are starting to pop up where the new signals are to be located? Also take note that 180 St Shop is completed. The shop sports a new logo featuring what appears to be the R110B. It's time to bring those R142s in!
2. Waht are 3 and 4 trains doing on the White Plains Rd line?
The 3 and 4 trains that you spotted on the White Plains Rd line there because they were either going to or coming from the car wash located in the 239 St Yard. This is a common site because these lines don't have their own car washes in their respective train yards (Mosholu, Lenox, Livonia) so they often travel elsewhere. You might even see an occasional 3 or 4 train travelling to Westchester Yard on the 6.
3. How come at Jackson Av, the signals are very close to each other?
I live right next to the Jackson Av train station, so I'll attempt to answer this one (I have a great view of the el and it's train station from my apartment window). Let me see... The way I see it, the reason the signals are so close to each other is that there were three junctions in this location (one of which doesn't exist anymore). First there's a crossover between Jackson and Prospect (the middle track to soutbound local). Second, the middle track ends south of Jackson and feeds into uptown and downtwon tracks. Third, there is a non existent junction between Jackson and 3rd Avs. Trains travelling from this line either continued into the subway to Brooklyn or continued on an el headed to Manhattan via 2nd and 3rd Avs. Some, if not all, 2nd Av trains coming from Manhattan terminated at Freeman St. The 2nd Av El ceased operating to the Bronx in 1940. Then some 3rd Av el service then operated to Freeman St until 1946, when the connection was formally abandoned.
The West Farms El (2 and 5 lines) is unusual in that it actually opened separately from the first subway in November 1904 (it is considered an extension of the subway line, not of the original elevated system). The West Farms line was operated as a branch of the el system until the Harlem River Connection with the Lenox Av line opened in July 1905. As I said before, the connection remained until 1946 with various services running over it.
The numerous signals you see are there as a measure of enforcing speed limits through the area. The signal configuration will change somewhat when it comes time to install the new signal blocks sometime in the near future.
Keep on Railfanning!
Constantine
There is no Mosholu yard. I think you are talking about Jerome.
It is called Mosholu Yard on the No.4 Line. You must be thinking of Concourse Yard on the IND.
I thought it was called Jerome also......
Everyone gets this Yard mixed up and I can see why. Because its not by Mosholu. Its in a bulding right about at 205 Street. But on the Job Assignments it say's Report at Moshulu Yard on the jobs that start out of the Yard. Now Control Center and Crews refur to the Tower at 205 Tower. Anyway Jerome Yard is a good name but the Assignmet sheets call it Moshulu. I got to check the web site to see if it also got the offical name.
I forgot to mention that E.180St house do look good. I saw it from the side and did not see the logo. I also observe the seperate tracks @ West Farms Sq. Are they going to bring back the express run bet 180 and Gun Hill RD/241? Also is it the 2 or 5 that run through the yard?
3train#2119Mike writes:
I also observe the seperate tracks @ West Farms Sq.
-Mike, what do you mean by separate?
Are they going to bring back the express run bet 180 and Gun Hill RD/241?
-Not that I know of. Patronage must warrant the utilization of the express track for passenger service. I don't think that there is enough ridership on White Plains Rd to warrant this kind of service.
Also is it the 2 or 5 that run through the yard?
-Actually, they both run through the yard. Southbound 2 trains have the option of entering track A (the yard lead) after leaving Bronx Park East. The 2 makes a quick run through the yard before heading back onto the mainline and proceeding into 180 St. During a General Order this route might be used, or even during the morning rush hour to get those 2 and 5 trains into 180 St to get downtown quickly. The northbound 5 has the option of running through Unionport Yard (on the side of the northbound 2 and 5) and then heading up to Dyre. I don't think that the yard lead has been utilized for passanger trains, but as always yard moves can enter from either side of Unionport.
Cheers,
Constantine
The separate tracks that you speak of was the original Contract I route to the 180 St-Bronx Park Station. It was originally envisioned that the line would continue north via Boston Road through Bronx Park joining White Plains Rd in the vicinity of what is now Pelham Parkway.
However the zoo management led by the director William Temple Hornaday
raised strong objections to having rapid transit trains running through the pastoral zoo surroundings. So when the time came for the Contact III extension to 241 St the IRT constructed the present line which swings east and then goes north to East 180 St. This left the 180 St-Bronx Pk terminal as a stub end and it was closed in 1952.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Right. And the 3rd Avenue El also had a spur going to Bronx Park. Did that spur end in front of the Botanical Garden entrance? I've read there was a yard located somwehere in the vicinity in which cars would be brought to the ground by a car elevator. As I recall, this Bronx Park spur closed one year before the Contract One terminal (1951). It makes me wonder if during the Dual Contracts, those folks in the IRT and Manhattan El system had even considered extending the 3rd Av el over that portion of Bronx Park towards White Plains Rd in a similar manner that the Contract One line had been planned for.
Any thoughts?
-Constantine
The station that you refer to was the original terminal of the Suburban Line of the Manhattan Railway opened in 1902. There was a small three track yard underneath the structure and to the east of the NYCRR Harlem Division. The yard was used for storage of the Open Trailers (car #1219-1254) from about 1902 to 1917/18 during the winter months. I do not believe that it would have been possible to extend operations north from this point as by this time the New York Botanical Gardens was already occupying its present site.
The situation on the other side of the park was different for the Contract I station. Boston Road was open to horse and vehicular traffic throughout the length of the Bronx Zoo until the late 40's/early 50's. At that time there were no animals located east of Boston Rd and the area was just parkland. However their were animals quartered to the west of Boston Rd most especially the zoo's large Buffalo herd which in those days occupied most of the southern third of the zoo. The zoo authorities were concerned about the noise from frequent subway trains and their point of view prevailed.
When the 3 Avenue Line was extended north from Fordham Rd in 1920 it was routed via Webster Av thereby creating another stub end terminal.
The 3 Avenue Bornx Park Station ended I believe a little south of Bedford Park Blvd and Garden visitors had to wlak norht to the "Moshoulu Gate" of the Garden which is accross from the NYCRR Botanical Garden Station.
Sorry for the long post
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thank You! No sorry's for the long post needed. It's always nice to learn a little more history....
I had no idea that Boston Road continued through the zoo. This clears up some questions I had about this part of the Contract One Route.
Again Thanks,
Constantine
Hey Mike this weekend is perfict IRT Fan trip weekend. If your rideing the No.2 or No.5 trains. THERE are some service changes this weekend. No 5 TRAINS go regular Downtown but run as a Uptown No.2 from Chambers Street to 149 Street-GC. No 2 Train will run Uptown on the Lex Line running as a No.5 Train. No.3 trains are only running from 148 Street to Times Square. No.4 trains will go to New Lots at least every other train if that GO on the New Lots Line is still going. Now the part I'm geting mixed up about is the Genaral Order states Downtown No.2 trains will go from Chambers to Bowling Green and then someone else get on board and takes the train to Brooklyn.
This Genaral Order seems confuseing to me so I hate to know how the Passangers are going to take it. I will reread the GO to make sure I left Nothing out.
Let me know something. I would to take the 2 from Chambers to Bowling Green..... Are you wrking this weekend?
Yes but I do not no my Schedule yet. When theres a GO we run on a Supplerment Schedule. Last weekend I only did one trip and it was way off the my Regular Schedule. Also Since I work at Van Courtland On Friday I wouldn't no the Schedule. Lets try our meeting next Saturday.
Yankee's are home this weekend. If they are cutting service on the 4, that might up the crowds.
They may have to send No.4 Trains around the City Hall Loop to aviod Crowd Conditions.
There's always South Ferry, too.
Too much conjestion with the No.2 and No.5 useing the South Ferry loop to switch routes.
You're right. I forgot about the GO.
Next Weekend sounds like a good idea. Email me and let me know.......
Next Weekend sounds like a good idea. Email me and let me
know.......
That means this Saturday I will be in line for a fine old R26 or R28 on the uptown #2 from Penn Station to E Tremont, which, if I read your G.O. correct, will be a #5 running as a #2. I like the interiors better on the R26/R28 as opposed to the whitewash on the R33. Who painted those fan covers anyway - pretty sloppy. They left brush-marks and they are peeling like an R16.
Wayne
Give my regards to our beloved Redbirds. It looks as if they'll still be around this October when I'm slated to be in the city.
Oh you know I love Redbirds - I'm sentimental for them, of course, as I rode them (when they were a different red) throughout my early subway rides. They are great trains, with a fine RF window. The interiors, of the R33, as I have mentioned before, the ceilings were painted white and the fan blower covers (where the A/C comes out of) were pretty sloppily painted. On the other hand, the R26 and R28 have all-beige interiors and the ceiling components appear to be baked enamel. Pretty spiffy. And the R28s aren't quite as rusty as the R26s or R29s. The R33s have had their rusts mended.
Wayne
I remember the Redbirds in their original red livery, too; however, I rode on the IRT very, very infrequently prior to 1970, and for the next few years the only time I would ever ride on that division was on a 7 out to Shea Stadium. No particular reason except there was no real need to do so. Then again, I got my thrills on the CPW express dash, thanks to the R-10s and the A train.
Remember there will be the Delays on the No.1,2,5, because the No.2 will come from the loop to Lex Line AND The No.5 will go throw the Loop to 7 Ave and with No.1 makeing a Staion Stop at South Ferry waiting for the Tourist to get out of the Last 5 cars. One note the No.2 and No.5 will pass South Ferry on the No.1 Line track because to go up 7 Ave the No.5 takes the switch before the station and to go to Lex the Switch is after the station.
Pelham Bay Dave writes:
Remember there will be the Delays on the No.1,2,5, because the No.2 will come from the loop to Lex Line AND The No.5 will go throw the Loop to 7 Ave.
-No sir. You better check the GO again. The GO for the 2 takes place over night when there are no 5s to run on 7th Avenue. Anyway, there would be too much congestion if the 1,2, and 5 had to run into South Ferry together.
Cheers,
Constantine
I have currected that. There are so many GO'S On this I'm getting mixed up. All I know is I am Not affected because it will be on Sunday. Next weekend is when thing get real Interesting. I won't post that intil I get all the Details.
So what's going to be happening at about 9:15AM tomorrow - #2s or #5s?
Can I get from 34-Penn Station to East Tremont without going to China?
GO's - a necessary evil. Progress, progress, dig we must &c.
I do hope nothing's happening out on the "A" train in Brooklyn...
Wayne
I read your post a little bit late, but nevertheless, thanks for posting info on the GO. Keep me informed of anything going on since I live along the 2 line...
Cheers,
Constantine
No Problem I try to do my best to make sure you guys know what is happening. I looked at the MTA-NYCT web site and there is nothing on this.
There is a GO on the Livonia line today until 7pm. Shuttle service to Utica, then 3 to Nevins for the 4. They are using one track except at Junius where the shuttle switch to the New Lots track wait for the other shuttle to pass and then switch back to the Manhattan track. The switch is right on my block. They are working on the elevated structure by Penn Av. Replacing beams and so forth. This has been going on all week so far......
Nothing but 4's to New Lots.........
Dave,
The last time I worked this kind of General Order the train runs non-stop from Chambers to Wall St. The crew that brought the train north into the station drops back one interval and the waiting crew takes the train south into Brooklyn. This setup gets the train out of the station quickly, as the waiting Train Operator is already at the south end. The train wrong rails out of Wall Street and crosses over to the south-bound track just south of Wall Street. Don't forget to stop at Bowling Green heading South. I had a Train Operator who did not stop, luckly it was one in the morning and no one seemed to care. It's great fun to watch the passangers as they try to figure out how we are going to get to Brooklyn.
Have Fun,
Michael
Isn't the South Ferry loop involved in any of this? I seem to recall that 2 trains come into the loop the way 1/9 trains do, then are switched over to the inner loop track once they leave the station. This gets them to Bowling Green.
Thanks Michael,
I never did this GO before. Thanks for the Help.
Here's a thought: if the 5 is being turned around at South Ferry, and if most 5 trains are Redbirds, will they be signed up as such, front and sides?
When the No.5 Get to Bowling Green. the Next stop will be Chambers Street. The No.5 will swich to the No.1 Line tracks before the South Ferry Station. The No.5 will bypass South Ferry.
I would love to be on a 5 train as it makes the maneuver from Bowling Green, to the South Ferry loop, and heads back uptown on the West Side. I don't suppose this will last until October, will it?
No only a One day GO. Maybe it will happen again some other time. I did that GO on the No.5 Line about 7 Years ago. The only diffrents was they made us stop at South Ferry then Chambers. It was a fun time on the IRT. Since I have Sunday's off I couldn't join the Fun.
The ex CNJRR ferry 'Elizabeth' is now a Hooters' Restaurant moored on the west shore of the Delaware River just north of the Ben Frank Bridge in Philadelphia. There is a second ferry moored some distance north of her. Does anyone know the name of this boat? Is it possible that is the 'Miss New York' late of Bridgeport and the Staten Island Ferry?
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
The three boats of the MISS NEW YORK class built in 1933 are:
- MARY MURRAY - currently (well as of the last time that I checked) on the Raritan River near the NJ Tpke. She was being used for storage and someone put a roll door on her side to facility it.
- GOLD STAR MOTHER - was used as a methadone treatment center in the early 70's. This angered the mothers who the boat was named for, and this was quite understandable! She was scrapped.
- MISS NEW YORK - was bought by the owner of the BINGHAMPTON - a very successful restaurant on the Hudson at Edgewater. Nothing was done with her for quite a while. She was tied up on the Jersey side of the Hudson across from about 96th St. She was listing something awful. Last trip down the Henry Hudson, she wasn't there. My guess is that she sank - but I cannot confirm this. If someone can help me out on this one, please do!
Chip
Speaking of retired SI Ferry boats: The Verrazano was tied up for a while at the Brooklyn Navy Yard visible from the WillyB. It is not there any longer. Where is it?
If I recall correctly, "Gold Star Mother" is a reference to the gold star flag that one placed in their front window if a member of the family died in military service during World War II (a blue star symbolizing that a family member was in the military). So, if the "Gold Star Mother" was built in 1933, what was it called before it was renamed, and when was the name changed?
[If I recall correctly, "Gold Star Mother" is a reference to the gold star flag that one placed in their front window if a member of the family died in military service during World War II (a blue star symbolizing that a family member was in the military). So, if the "Gold Star Mother" was built in 1933, what was it called before it was renamed, and when was the name changed?]
I believe the term was first used during World War I.
The Miss New York Class was built in 1938, not 1933. The Knickerbocker and the Dongan Hills (the last boats with the high smokestacks) were built in 1929.
The term "Gold Star Mother" refers to any mother who lost a son (guess that it would be a child these days) during war. It became popular during WWI, hence the GOLD STAR MOTHER was named appropriately in 1933.
Chip
Today's NY Newsday had a small article about the find.
Someone had mentioned that there was no news coverage. There was a young reporter from Newsday, who had briefly interviewed me and my wife. Also, very quickly after the Police had showed up, there was a man with a video camera and a very conspicuious police scanner on his belt. That vulture only hung around for awhile. He left when he saw there was no sensational story to be found.
Steve, all this happened on Monday and Tuesday. Or yesterday and the day before. 5/10 and 5/11
In the NY Post Thursday May 13, page 14, is a article about train announcements can't be heard in nearly half the cars-a 100 percent increase from last year, a TA survet found.
After the good folks of SubTalk reads the article, your most excellent thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
In the NY Daily News Thursday May 13, page 5, is a article about Mayor Giuliani will not let the new transit museum open the City Hall Subway Station under City Hall-sealed off for 53 years -to the Public.
The Administration is citing Securoty risks.
Your thoughts on this is most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Dang, there go my plans to plant a bomb under City Hall, I came up with the idea when Rudy said was going to "blow up" my work. (Board of Education). I thought tit for tat....
I bet the Police Officer is still in his booth down there too.
Yes, it is, but it was unmanned the last time I took a 6 around the loop - looks kind of out of place in the ornate station.
I told you Rudy ws afraid of the sound of his own farts...
Well, baby, I mean Rudy, Guliani will be gone inm another 2 years - why worry?
Hey, Steve B. and Philip N.: who wants to be the first to put some money on whether or not Rudy G. ends his political career by turning into a Richard Nixon clone? Not the corruption part, but turning into a complete paranoid nut case where he'll suspect everyone around him of stabbing him in the back. I see it coming.....any wagers, please?
cya later, Doug aka BMTman
COMING??? Its already happened!!!!
I will Say that Rudy, to his credit has put a lot of BAAAD people away and if I had a fan club like that I'd be a little hinky myself
I thought the IRT City Hall station is under the park in FRONT of City Hall, not actually under City Hall. And besides, how do you get the rental truck down into the station? And furthermore, wouldn't a terrorist be more likely to blow up something really important like the Stock Exchange or the UN building?
Bill
Well, in Rudy's little world, he thinks that he is "something really
important like the Stock Exchange or the UN building," so of course the terrorists are going to blow *him* up.
Of course if terrorists *were* to go after Il Duce, I wouldn't mind, just please do so away from the City Hall station!
In the NY Post Thursday May 13, page 24, is a article about the TA will spend $7.5 milion to beef up service on 67 buses routes this summer to keep up with booming ridership and hekp cut traffic gridlock.
I also out this in the BusTalk Section.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Does anyone know if there is space to connect the local tracks on the Northeast Corridor to the single track Chessie track one mile north of Linden?
Also, is there enough room to connect the old CNJ Bayonne tracks to the Northeast Corridor local tracks at Elizabeth?
I need this information because I am finishing my plan for the revival of the North Shore Railroad.
Finally, your opinion. Should I electrify the North Shore and connecting tracks in New Jersey or not. Cost is not a consideration for me.
Your website is misunderstanding if you be so kind to "HELP" me I would be happy!
Next time try asking a question to receive help on.
If you are looking for subway travel info, fare info, maps, timetables, etc. you are on the WRONG SITE. The Official New York City Transit web site is http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/. Maybe this is the source of your confusion.
-Dave
Just heard a report that the city has formally scotched plans to put a new transit museum in the abandoned City Hall station, citing security reasons.
Perhaps the next mayor may revithe plan.
You have to wonder if the Mayor used to be a big pothead, considering all f his paranoia...
That mayor of yours is am embarrassment in front of the world. Remove him by the most expeditious means legally possible.
Well, I wouldn't go quite that far ... he has done a lot of good for the city. He just wants to be Senator or President so he needs to keep getting on the front page of the paper. If he'ld just do his job and stop looking down the road he'ld get a lot more done for the people he's suppose to serve (now).
Mr t__:^)
And if Rudy is elected President, he'll wind up building what amounts to be a cross between the Berlin Wall and the Great Wall of China around the White House.
[And if Rudy is elected President, he'll wind up building what amounts to be a cross between the Berlin Wall and the Great Wall of China around the White House.]
Won't happen - Rudy's chances are somewhat less than zero. It's much more likely that Baby George will be elected President, in which case the White House will be expanded to include a crack den and a singles bar.
I wonder if he hates broccoli as much as his father does. I also wonder if "Can't do it" is part of his vocabulary.
You mean Clinton didn't already put those things in?
Mr. Bill probably doesn't remember putting them in, even if he did.
"That mayor of yours is am embarrassment"
Excuse me? Where are you from and where do you get your info (or impressions) from? I may not agree with the mayor in everything that he does but his actions while in offise do not rise anywhere near the level of an "embarrassment". He's a bully - granted. He does not like opposition either. He's a very controlling person. All these are true but he gets results:
1)Crime is down - way down.
2)Municiple agencies are being forced to work leaner and meaner (as a municipal employee I may not like it but as a tax payer I do).
3)Welfare recipients are being shown that there is a way to break the welfare-family cycle and are being given a chance to do it.
4)There is not the sense of hopelessness in this city that shrouded it during the "Dinky" administration.
During the Koch administration Ed Koch was more antagonistic to minorities and unions than Guilliani ever was. How short our memories are. Now he shamelessly hawks himself in the media as the 'Voice of Reason'
During David (do nothing) Dinkins administration, his anti-police, anti-semetic agendas pervaded his entire (lack of) administration. He permitted riots (only against whites and asians though). Under his administration, the police shot their weapons twice as frequently as during the Guilliani administration. 'Accidental' or Unjustified police shootings were 8X higher while dinkins was at the helm. The peoples of the lowest economic classes in this city were neglected while the city's most inept mayor in history diverted planes from safe landing patterns at LaGuardia Airport so he could enjoy tennis without jet noise.
With all due respect for Todd's colleagues who report the news in print and over the air waves, I think that Mayor Guilliani has not gotten his due credit for the positive direction this city is now headed in. I think you are a victim of biased reporting of the news or possibly your own political prejudices.....
Now Let's Get Back To The Important Stuff - The 2 & 3 Rail Stuff !!!
I have a few things to add since you seem to have a selective memory.
(1) While he was campaigning, Rudy G. led a police-riot at City Hall where many off-duty cops harrassed and spewd racial epithets at minority City Councilmembers and civilians.
(2) You seem to believe that Dinkins "let" the Crown Heights riot happen. The fact Dinkins WAS inept in the fact that his staff was not keeping him abreast of the situation and it escalated to the point where -- once he arrived on the scene -- his own safety was at stake and Yankel Rosenbaum had been fatally wounded. As if he, the Mayor could have staved off civil unrest (Be realistic). Rudy could not have done much better had the incident had happenned on his 'watch'. And Dinkins is not anti-semetic since he is a great contributor and backer of the State of Israel. He is always at some Jewish function -- more there than at a black function.
(2a) The incident at the Asian-market was NOT a riot. It was a protest -- something that is protected under our rights as citizens of this country.
(3) Ed Koch, having been born and raised in the city got along better with ALL citizens, initially. I say initially, because in his first two terms he did a commendable job at financially turning this city around. It was only later that his personality changed for the worst -- his ego became unmanagable and to a certain extent ended his Mayorality with a similar Giuliani style of "do as I say, not as I do" attitude. And of course those scandals (ie Donald Manes, and etc.) really hurt Koch's credibility. Pathetically, he now goes around and bashes Rudy G. for many of the same failings of his own career (I agree with you there).
'Nough said, Doug aka BMTman
So now can we get back to the trains?????
Actually, all preservationists have to guard against the possibility that a meat axe Reaganite like "Hizzoner" may try to scrap the museum all together to finance tax cuts targeted for the least deserving people. Remember, since Boxcar Willie died about a month ago, there is no deep pocket celebrity to step in like Bette Midler did to save those vacant lots that residents turned into gardens from Rudy's unfeeling cash register brain. and this is the most ON topic post Ive ever done Talk to a few real preservationists ,you'll find darn few supply siders. Preservationists should organize in case "Hizzoner" tries to pull something
This is unbeleiveable Giuliani is just plan parinaid. There are lots of places in the Subway that pose a Securty Risk. Like the artical Said Brooklyn Bridge on the No.456 or City Hall on the N,R can also be a risk. Why stop with the Museum band all train from stopping in the area of City Hall. Lets see that would afect the No.2,3,4,5,6,A,C,E,J,M,N,R. What diffrents is a Museum for us train buffs to hang out at going to make.
I don't think you are allowed to ride the "6" around the loop any longer either...
Hey, while you're at it, stop all subway service cuz they all provide a threat to the mayor and his city!!
Two current threads have a convergent theme. The 500 protesters decrying the extension of rail service from Astoria are saying:
Not In My Back Yard.
While our mayor is extremely critical of 'nynbyites' in general, he has stopped cold, the idea of creating another transit museum in the City hall Subway station, saying:
Not In My Basement Yo-Yo.
How do you make the color letters steve? Include changing the html notes at the bottom.
Download the posting and view the HTML code with your browser. I'm just beginning to play with HTML and it's really quite simple.
Today HTML - Tomorrow JAVA
Steve,
Yo-Da-Man!
If I'm ever at the WCBS studios on a Thursday evening when it's time for Ask the Mayor, three guesses what I'm going to prod Rich Lamb to ask... and the first two guesses don't count!
Trouble maker !!! You'll get me transferred to 240th Street...
Well if that happens I'll come over to the born and meet you. Besides we need better people in that born.
Thanks, I'll be in the city on Sunday on the west side - Perhaps if your working I'll get to meet you...
Rich Lamb? Our former governor was Dick Lamm. A real dufus, IMHO. The ultimate just-say-no, duty-to-die politician. Is this a coincidence, or what?
Steve B. -- Rich Lamb, a 20-year veteran of WCBS Newsradio-88, has won numerous awards. In addition, he is regarded by his colleagues as among the finest radio reporters in New York City. No one can paint the word picture like Rich. So, for example, if I wanted to find someone to describe a NY subway station with all of its ornate fixtures to a blind visitor, I'd pick Rich in a flash.
Thanks for the info. I meant no disrespect. The similarity in manes is purely coincidental.
Hey Steve, do you think Rudy G.'s seen "Escape from New York" too many times???
That's got to be his inspiration for the "bunker mentality".
Doug aka BMTman
The transit museum thing is nonsense. I have never heard what the risk is, from whom, and why.
The bottom line is that despite its groaning burdens, the city has a few extra dollars for a brief period at the top of a Wall Street boom, and eveyone is determined to make sure that none of it is used in a way that provides a lasting benefit for the people who live here. The people who are grabbing the money are those who already do a lot better here than elsewhere. And the schools and transit system? Not so good.
A colleague here was in Manhattan yesterday and picked up a new MC.
French Connection UK - I'm sure they're at it again.
Does anyone know how long they've been out or how widespread they're being sold ? This example expires 7/31/00 so it has to be recent.
Mr t__:^)
There have been so many lately I cant keep up. There's also Manhattan Mini Mall Storage, Continental Airlines(yes, another go around)
[There's also Manhattan Mini Mall Storage,]
Didn't know about that one ... thanks
[Continental Airlines(yes, another go around)]
It's the 5th in a series:
"We have to put up with our competitors. You don't."
background is the same as the 3 from Sept. 1998,
i.e. the first one, April '98, had a bigger globe.
BTW, Eye have MetroCards with lovely graphics on the back to trade !
How about for the set four Yankee cards for your out-of-town ers ?
All slightly used by an old lady who went to church on Sunday ;-)
Mr t__:^)
I got the Manhattan Mini Storage card at Chambers on the A and C, thanks to tip from a station agent at Ft. Hamilton Parkway on the F. It is a clorful card with "So, you married an intellectual" and a stack of book on the right two-thirds of the card and infomation about the advertiser on the left third (phone #, web site etc.).
Does anyone know any of the stations with the French Connection MC?
Posted in Bus Talk .yesterday evening
Steve
No more 2 express service in the night? I guess the tracks will get a rest. But the local trcks will be overused..........
Here is the text of FDNY's Posting from Bus_Talk, only insofar as it
applies to Subway service:
Subdivision A Subway Schedules ,,Oct 1999
Improvements'
IRT 1= Weekday 8 PM to 11 PM.
4 NB Trips Added
_ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
IRT 2= Weekday 10 AM to 4 PM/
9 PM to 10 PM/
Midday Headway to 8 mins,Evenings at 10 mins
add 10 additional Roundtrips
_ _ + _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
IRT 3= Weekdays 10 AM to 4 PM and 9 PM to 10 PM.
Midday Headways at 8 mins ,,evenings at 10.
add 10 Additional Roundtrips.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _
IRT 5= Weekdays 9 PM to 11 PM.
Headways every 10 min.
add 4 additional roundtrips.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
IRT 6= weekdays 10 AM to 4 Pm and 8 Pm to 11PM.
21 additional round trips added.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -
IRT 2= sundays 6 am to 7 AM .
add 1 additional roundtrips.
_ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
IRT 3/5= weekdays and weekends.
add 8 additonal roundtrips M-f, 11 on
Saturdays ,,18 on Sundays for the Bwy 7 av Corridor
add 5 roundtrips on Saturdays and add 12
trips on Sundays on the Lex Corridor.
________________________________________
Also With the No.4 and No.6 running Local which puts a 10 Minute wait from 125 Street to Brooklyn Bridge. Which means 24/7 No.6 service to Brooklyn Bridge. Also Now FDNY say's No.2 will go Local from 96 Street to Chambers.
Remind me to avoid the IRT #2 whilst in Manhattan whenever possible! The IRT #2 is the very reason I try not to utilise the IRT #1/9 when I can avoid it, for the simple reason that the IRT #1 (the so-called "Broadway Local") is a long-ass -- not to mention, slow-ass -- line beginning at West 242nd Street in Riverdale, The Bronx, to South Ferry Station in downtown Manhattan (aka "the city").
What about the 2 line? It's the longest in the IRT. With maybe the exception of the 4 late nights......
The longest possible IRT route is 241-New Lots via 7 Av; 26.78 miles.
Next is 241-New Lots via Lex 26.12 miles
Larry,RedbirdR33
The No.2 Line still has the Longest route. E 241 to Flatbush running time 1 Hour and 27 Minutes. The Shortest IRT line is the No.7 Line from Main Street to Times Square. Running time 33 Minutes.
Wouldn't the shortest IRT route be the 42nd Street Shuttle? (And, at one time, the Bowling Green--South Ferry Shuttle would have been even shorter.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Yes that would be only 2 Stops. I ment to say the No.7 is the shortest Main Line route on A Division. That Shuttle can put you to sleep. I use to work Overtime on the Shuttle double Ending TK 4 during the AM Rush Hour back around 1990. It feels your doing Yard Moves intead of Road.
Regular readers of "Subtalk" will have followed with interest the comings and goings here in London, but let me be the first to say that:
The JUBILEE LINE EXTENSION will open to fare paying passengers from noon on Friday 14th May 1999 between Stratford and North Greenwich!
.
First service frequency expected to be every 6 minutes until 19:45 apporx!.
.
Regards
Rob :^)
oops who can't spell Friday!!!
:^)
Never mind the spelling Rob. I am in Burnley on Friday so I shall miss the big day. Should be there Wednesday or Thursday next week though. Who is going to get the first pictures to David for inclusion in this site ? I think there is a surface section at Canning Town.
Simon
Swindon UK
Jolly Good Show !!!!
Mr t__:^)
Too bad John Cleese wasn't on hand to say from his desk, "And now for something completely different."
Did you guys and gals know about the secret chicago subway used by Big Al Capone and his boys. There is 60 miles of the freight tunnels under Chicago street 40 feet below. They ran small electric locomotives from an overhead trolly line and pulled freight cars. There were many switches and tunnels have a spooky apearance to them.
THIS IS COOL STUFF.
They were used to haul coal and make deliveries mostly. This was the tunnel system that was pierced with a pile being driven a few years ago in the Chicago river. Since it is connected to most of the basements in the loop, they flooded many buildings and closed the regular subways for a few days.
The freight system was a narrow gauge system. The tunnels are now full of telephone, cable TV, and fiber optic cables.
There's nothing secret about this underground system in Chicago. You might want to read the book "40 Feet Below" which gives a very interesting description of the system which was originally built to be a railroad which provided underground deliveries of coal, merchandise, materials, etc.
It was abandoned in the 1940's, and to this day it serves very well as underground passageways for telephone lines, etc. It does also show up from time to time in various movies filmed in the Chicago area.
In 1996, the Illinois Railway Museum raised one of these electric
freight locomotives from the tunnel network. read the story at
http://www.irm.org/railwire/rw162a1.html
The "secret" Chicago subway isn't really such a secret. It is very well documented in the excellent book "40 Feet Below" by Bruce Moffat. It was used to deliver freight to downtown buildings and remove ashes and rubbish. Parts of it were closed when the rapid transit subways were built in the thirties and forties. It's most recent notoriety was several years ago when an accident on the river caused flooding in the tunnels that spread to building basements and shut down the rapid transit subways for several days. Its only use today is for electric cables. The "secret" subway has no connection to Al Capone and his "boys", but it has an interesting history, nonethe less.
url for Chicago Tunnel http://members.aol.com/POKeefe571/tunnel1a.html
Hey guys and gals:
There is an old movie made during either the late 1940s or early 50s starring William Holden as I believe a plainclothes railroad cop working at one of the main Chicago staions.
The plot revolves around I think a Kidnapping of a girl with the climatic scene being filmed in the freight tunnels complete with operating motors and trains!
Saw this film months back on AMC; can not remember the name of it. Can anybody help me out?
It's a good film and for anyone interested in the freight tunnels it's a must see!
"Gimme dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me!"
AB&D-type Mike
[There is an old movie made during either the late 1940s or early 50s starring William Holden as I believe a plainclothes railroad cop working at one of the main Chicago stations.]
The name of the movie was "Union Station" made in 1950. It starred William Holden as Detective Lieut. William Calhoun. Calhoun was a railroad dick responsible for Union Station.
Plot is as AB&D type Mike says. Near the end of the movie great scenes can be seen of the narrow-gauge freight railway.
BTW, most of the railway was abandoned when the two Chicago Subways were built in the late 1930's early 1940's. The purpose of the railway was to deliver materials/goods/coal to the building located in the loop. The trains then carried the ash from the coal away from the buildings on their return trip.
All of this is documented in the book "Forty Feet Below: The Story of Chicago's Freight Tunnels” by Bruce Moffat.
These tunnels, long forgotten, were painfully remembered again in the early 1990’s when the great flood in the Loop occurred. A contractor working near Kinzie Street broke into one of the tunnels allowing huge volumes of water from the Chicago River into the system. The water found its way into the basement of many Loop office buildings and stores. The CTA was forced to shut down both the State and Dearborn Street Subways due to flooding. The then North-South Line, or better known today the Red Line, was detoured over the ‘L’ from Fullerton to 17th St Jct. Unfortunately, the CTA doesn’t have the ability to re-route the Blue Line and all available buses were pressed into shuttle service.
BTW, the book is out-of-print again, I think.
Jim K.
Chicago
As someone else posted, this web site: http://members.aol.com/POKeefe571/tunnel1.html has a whole lot of information about the Chicago Tunnels. He had copies of "40 Feet Below" book and also a video that goes along with it for sale thru his web site.
There is also a Pentrex video - based on the clips shown on the above web page I don't think it is the same. The Pentrex video is quite good; since I haven't seen the one advertised (assuming it is, as I suspect, a different tape) I can't offer an opinion on that one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a great same for the PATH. Lets call it the "Trolley in the Sewer Pipe".
"Trolley in the Sewr Pipe" ????
People have been calling the Boston subway just that for forty years that *I* know of!
Check out www.sfmunicentral.com for display of muni LRV's operating live in the system.
I have two questions to pose. Going back say 25 years ago what did NYCT consider to be safe operating speeds for its trains? I have heard rumors that 55 MPH was what the system was designed for. Of course today I beleive it is 45. And the other question is without any restrictions what can the average subway cars top speed be? That's probably a big question since there are quite a few different classes of cars.
Your'e correct. The equipment delivered in the early days of SMEE was designed well. R10's could and did do 50 regularly. Begining in the early 80's the TA began tinkering with the brakes. The net result after many modifications is SERVICE braking at a much reduced rate as compared to the orginal design.
When the critical equation of stopping distances to signal spacing was altered, the inevitable happened. Wrecks.
The formula for signal spacing is based on the stopping distance of a given train, and the relative top speed for the area. If the train takes a signifigant amount of distance more than what's called for by the signal spacing, you get wrecks.
So rather than return the brakes to what the designers had intended, the TA chose to slow things down instead. This brought stopping distances down to within design spec for the signal system.
Why? $$$$$$$$$$ that's why. Flat wheels, brake shoe wear, passenger complaints of squealing brakes, law suits from injuries due to hard stops. Also the added benifit of reduced power consumption. At top speed, a transit car drew about 220 amps through all four of it's traction motors. I look at the motor ammeter today, and I see about 60 for the #1 truck. That's on the Brighton express, say about 45MPH. That's as fast as you're gonna get with out a hill helping out.
Now we have a safe, but perfectly lethargic system. Read my post on R44/R46 H.P.
I have no doubt the R-10s did 50 on the express dash up CPW. They were speedsters, to say the least. At 81st St., a northbound A train would be a blur as it rocketed past. I remember counting the cars once as an A train sped by, and I'll bet it took less than 10 seconds to count 10 cars. It took mabye a second or two longer with a D train of R-1/9s, while a D train of R-32s would provide stiff competition for the R-10s.
Of course, it was even more fun to ride an express back then!
Despite what my "Transit Professional" friend says, according to a 1976 NYCT New Car Engineering publication, all cars from R-10 through R-42 were originally designed to attain a top speed of 45 MPH on tangent/level track. R-44 and R-46 were designed to operate at 70 MPH.
Steve:
Flat out, on level track, the original cars frequently did 50 MPH or so. It's a fact. Ask any one who rode back then. sk any Motormen with more than 6 or 7 years. You didn't need a speedometer to see that the equipment ran a lot faster back then. You know that.
I think that book must have a typo. I remember books with that kind of statistics with a 50 MPH balancing speed, and a 55 MPH top speed. "They moved the millions" and "Under the sidewalks of New York" come to mind. Also the course materiel to the "electric down" class I took in 1986.
What do you mean by 'original cars'? The source I quoted did specify R-10 to R-42 only. It did not specify any of the early equipment. As to the actual claims, with no radar gun and no speedometers, how were the motormen able to accurately measure the speed?
In a train all cars run at the same speed Some have new wheels some have old wheels The average ballacning speed of all of the cars will determine the speed if I am correct. If you read a speedometer on a car with new wheels you will get one reading. If you read a speeddometer on a car that the wheels have been turned to the limit it will read something higher but the train is traveling at the same speed. The range between 45 and 50 is within speedometer error.
DO nyc cars have speedometers?
NYCT cars use two types of speedometers. R-44, R-46 and R-68 use a speedometer that reads by counting the teeth of the 'bull' gear in the gear case. This type of speedometer is sensative to wheel size so those speedometers are supposed to be calibrated via a toggle switch on every inspection cycle. Settings are for wheels 34"+, 33" and 32 or less. The difference between the 3 settings is roughly 2 MPH at 50 MPH.
All other NYCT cars use a speedometer with a doplar sensor (radar) This is not dependent on wheel size. They are tested with a tuning fork.
Well, I figure someone might ask. So... here are the definitions of "Doppler frequency shift" and "Doppler radar." These are from the Glossary of Meteorology, second edition, to be published later this year by the American Meteorological Society (yours truly is the managing editor of the book).
Doppler frequency shift - (Also called Doppler effect.) In general, the change in frequency of a signal reaching a receiver when the receiver and the transmitting source are in motion relative to one another. This phenomenon was first noted for sound waves by the Austrian physicist Christian Johann Doppler (1803–53) in 1842.
Doppler radar - A radar that detects and interprets the Doppler effect in terms of the radial velocity of a target. The signal received by a radar from a moving target differs in frequency from the transmitted frequency by an amount that is proportional to the radial component of the velocity relative to the radar.
The speedometer to which Steve refers is in fact a miniature Doppler radar, and uses the Doppler frequency shift to calculate the speed.
POP QUIZ: What causes the change in sound of a train's whistle/horn as it approaches then passes a railraod crossing (from the point of reference of a stationary observer at the crossing)?
I think you can also apply that to a horn from a passing automobile. On the other hand, a D train of R-1/9s roaring past 81st St. would maintain a bull and pinion gear pitch of F# above middle C.
Is this a trick question? OK, I'll say Doppler frequency shift.
compression of the sound waves as the train approches and expansion of the waves of as the train moves away. Thus the dopler effect. Also used in a lesslie speaker cabinet on a Hamond organ, where the sound is rotated to create the pulsating sound.
Ah, yes, the "soap opera" sound. Not that I'm a soap fan...
Correct Steve B., it is indeed the Doppler frequency shift.
I'm sorry. Original as in original SMEE, R10 etc. Most crews who really wanted to know their speeds timed themselves on a metered mile. The Rockaways or Queens Blvd, CPW.
On the Railroads, the equipment has an adjustment knob for the speedometers. Whenever there was a wheel trued on a lathe, changing it's diameter, We simply dialed in the correct setting for the size of the wheel. This way speedometer accuracy was maintained. Do our cars have this with the speedometers they have? I've seen many an R46 go through the river tube showing 48 in one car and 53 in the other.
Depends on the speedo. I think the ones on the 75' cars
used an axle rotation sensor and are thus susceptible to
wheel size calibration error. The other style, which is most
of the fleet, uses doppler radar aimed at the roadbed, so
it would not be affected by wheel diameter variance.
As I stated in a previous post, the speedometer on the R-46 is adjustable to compensate for wheel size. However, the difference in speedo reading between a new wheel and a limit wheel is 2-3 MPH. The speedos that are dependent on wheel size are R-68, R-46 and R-44. The speed is measured by magnetically counting the teeth on the 'Bull Gear' in the gear case.
I'd have to tend to agree with the fact that R6/R7 cars could do 50MPH on level track - one strech of the Queens IND comes to mind, on the express track going through Sutphin Blvd (after unwinding from the broad curve). Based on the pitch of the gear whine (not everybody can sense this) and from what Steve B has told me about gear pitch vs.speed I would have to say 50MPH (+/- 3MPH) was achieved there. Ditto on the 4th Avenue express run the few times I rode R1/R4 "B" trains there (this is going back to 1968 and 1969).
Wayne
I totally agree. The R-1/9s could really move. The highest pitch I ever heard their bull and pinion gears get up to was F# above middle C, once on an E in Queens in 1968 (that train absolutely ripped past 36th St.) and on the couple of D trains I was lucky enough to ride along CPW. I wish I could remember for sure what they got up to in the 14th St. tunnel when they ran on the Canarsie, most likely F# at least, if not G above middle C. The BMT standards would reach G# in that tunnel.
The SMEE cars could accelerate faster. 50 mph was considered balancing speed, if what I've read is true.
It seems to me that a motorman (TO) could observe how much time it would take for a car/train to cover a known distance
"It seems to me that a motorman (TO) could observe how much time it would take for a car/train to cover a known distance"
Yes, I suppose that they could. Especially if they had a stop watch and had a stretch of track that they knew the exact length of. However, that would mean that they would be watching the watch and not watching the road. Keep in mind though, an error of just 8 feet at 60 miles per hour would result in a 9% error or 5 1/2 MPH either way.
Before speedometers, how did train operators judge their speed in order to obey "20 MPH" or similar signs along the tracks?
I've been wondering that since the 1940s; maybe I'll finally find out.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I'm not a train operator but I'll tell you how I estimate speed. Take a known distance like a station platform (IE: IND=600 feet) time the time it takes to pass that station (IE: 10 seconds). Therefore speed is 60 fps. MPH is approximately 2/3fps or 40 MPH.
Whlie the subway presents a whole different set of problems as Steve alluded to in his earlier post, it was common steam railway practice to publish Speed Tables (Seconds Per Mile)in the Employes time tables. all a crew person had to do was mark time at a milepost, wait for the next mile post, mark time again and look up the speed for the number of seconds it took to travel that mile.
[it was common steam railway practice to publish Speed Tables (Seconds Per Mile)in the Employes time tables. all a crew person had to do was mark time at a milepost, wait for the next mile post, mark time again and look up the speed for the number of seconds it took to travel that mile.]
And this pratice was used until the mid to late 1970's on the Reading Company. The old MU's, RDC's and Budd Silverliners were all delivered without speed-o-meters. The equipment was added to all operating positions on the MU's and RDC's as the new GE Silverliner IV equipment was making the scene.
Funny thing about the RDC's. When they were delivered in 1962, they didn't have speed-o-meters; however, they were equipped with a "event recorder" for speed which was placed in a cabinet inside the rail car and no use to the crew operating the train.
Judging speed was part of the enginemen's responsibility. I got pretty good at it after a little practice.
Jim K.
Chicago
This is also in the LIRR and the NORAC rule books/ timetable special instructions.
NORAC=Northeast Operating Rule Advisory Commitee
That's the organization that writes the common rule book for Amtrak, NJT, Conrail, SEPTA, Etc.
On the contrary the train's length is 600 feet on the IND, however few stations such as 63rd Drive are actually "known" as 600 feet. Some can be 610 to as much as 630 feet on some Rockaway Line stations. Signal numbers are more accurate as you have stated that a miscalculation of several feet leads to a 5 1/2 M.P.H. mistake. A known station would be one where the ten car marker is at the entrance to the tunnel and where I guess the end of the train is just at the rear end of the station with no extra platform behind the train in the station.
I think the original question was "how did motormen determine
speed before [the relatively recent introduction of] speedometers?"
Answer: Judgement! How do motormen know how many lbs of brake
to apply to stop at a certain point? Being able to make time/speed/
distance judgements is part of the job of being a motorman (but
perhaps that's no longer in the job description of Train Operator)
A friend of mine who has almost 30 years in motors told me of a time
once in the mid 1980s when RTO was giving train operators some
kind of special training. They had him operate a train that was
equipped with a speedometer, except only the supervisors had access
to it...it wasn't in the cab. At various points, they asked him
"how fast would you say you're going right now?" They were a little
miffed when he answered every question right +/- 1 MPH!
Judgement, judgement and more judgement with lots of experience was the way of a skilled motorman or train operator. In Atlanta, this hardly exists with train operators. They rarely stop at the proper car marker when operating in Manual Cab Signal mode and always let the dead-man feature do the final stop for them. Without the speedometer and cab signaling they are lost.
Oh, gee, we got along for 90 years with out a speedometer. What were we thinking. I agree with Mr. Train Control. It's all about training. TA only cares about the dollars, and forgets the sense!
The only time I ever looked at the speedometer was to be certain after a cab signal aspect change. Ditto for the brake gauges. Only when I made the initial charge.
It's all hearing and in the seat of the pants. Things that no matter how long you sit in a classroom, you cannot ever learn. They must be learned the old fashioned way. Alongside an experienced Motorman or Engineer. Over many weeks of supervised operation. I was released from classroom on July 7. It wasn't until October 14 that I was allowed to run a train on the main. And then STILL with an instructor Engineer alongside. I will never forget the first time I had the engine all alone. By then I had enough seat time, that it was second nature. I had enough confidence in my ability as an Engineer, that I had barely noticed I was alone.
I meet new train operators all the time now that I'm in the TA. I can't tell you how many of them need to be led by the hand. How few have the needed confidence. None really are "qualified". It's amazing we don't have more accidents.
As the Conductor, in charge of the train, I have to take responsibility for these children. In some cases they call me over the intercom for the line ups at certain interlockings. One hit a timer in the river tube. She called me on the I/C. I could hear her crying! These are the men and women TA sends out to transport the riding millions every day!
As a subway "fan" and quasi-professional (as an Instructor at a tourist museum) I have wondered why the TA has recently put "remember your line-up" posters at many locations. Does this mean that for 90 years operators knew the line-ups, but now they're forgetting them too often? I find it curious that the TA would consider operators qualified for a particular line without knowing the proper routing line-ups on the main lines without reminder posters.
YES!
For 90 years we hired people, then gave them ENOUGH TRAINING! Now we give them a "Microwave course" Bare minimum. In school car, train operators, are given a map of the system, and a book of cards, with pictures of important home signal aspects. That's it.
Like getting out of an airport, renting a car. Looking at the map to know where you are going to. Only it's a foregn city you've never been to.
That's how New York City subway train operators are trained today. Personnel who have the responsibilty of thousands of lives in their hands.
Eric,
Just wondering - if you were a fully qualified engineer on the LIRR, why did you become a conductor for the TA? (no disrespect intended, just curious.)
subfan
I was an employee of the NY&A Rwy. The differences in pay are HUGE. LIRR engineer = $26.32 Hr NY&A engineer = $14.65
If I had been employed by the MTA LIRR instead, I most assuredly would still be there. But seeing as they will not hire NY&A personnel, I don't let it bother me.
My goal since childhood had always been to operate subway trains. The TA had called me for the Conductors job, and I actually turned it down. But after 9 more months had gone by, and I realized just how tough freight work is, I changed my mind.
Every day, 6 days a week. 7 AM to 7 PM. I got home exhausted. Fell asleep as soon as I would get out of the shower. Sometimes the job required running and jumping. Always climbing. On Sunday, I would vegitate in front of the TV. I was neglecting my children. Why? The pay was only $13.05 per hour, at the time. Sure with all the O.T. I brought home a nice cheque, but I had always prized my leisure time, and it was begining to take a toll. I found myself increasingly iritable, and my feet were hurting too. At NY&A we shared both engine and ground duties.
So one night after getting soaked to the bone in a particularly bad rainstorm, I changed my mind about the whole thing. The next day, I never went to bed. Instead, I went to the NYC Dept. of Personnel, and put my name back on the list. They called me for the job again in two weeks. It was like answering a call from the Railroad Gods.
But here, money has never been an issue, for me. Always, respect, and working conditions.
On the railroad, a conductor was in charge of a crew. No one second guessed his descicions. He was definetly not a doorman.The engineer was sufficiently trained. He never had to wonder if he was taking the proper signal.
I'd like to see the dedication and proffesionalism that saw there, in our crews here. I'd like to see management treat us here the way management treated me and my fellow crewmen there. Bt I'm not holding my breath.
But this is where I am now, and I'm here because this is where my destiny has led me. I love this little railroad. I'm not happy with what has happened here, but I do feel I can make a difference. One day I will. This is home, where I belong.
Thanks for the response - very interesting! While I may not always agree with you on some of the union-management issues (though I must say I can see your point in many cases), I greatly appreciate and enjoy the insightful and knowlegable input you are able to provide as one of the few people who has worked for both the TA and another railroad. Your "handle" (whatever it may be at the time:-)) is one of those I look forward to seeing when I get the chance to visit this forum, knowing that whether or not I agree with you on the particular subject under discussion, at least the poster is someone who thinks, and not just one who shoots off.
Regards,
subfan
For (perhaps not 90) many years, motormen were conductors before they operated trains. Then the wisdom of the Kennedy Democrats took hold. The NYCT became a huge lab for social research and social engineering. The government said there were no promotional paths for the lowest titles (the cleaners). We created a Helper trainee course which taught mechanics and electricity to cleaners but that took 18 months. That was not fast enough and did not move along enough people of certain demographic groups.
SOOOOOOO what do we do? We take our least educated (as a group) and least capable of working independently (as a group) employees and in 75 days, make them train operators (and we select them via Civil Service exam instead of aptitude test). And why do we do it? We do it not because we want to elevate the level of competance and efficiency of the system. We do it because it satisfies some bureaucrat who never rides the subway.
It's not the movement of the train that is the problem. It's the comprehension of what we are really doing. It's really seeing the entire picture. It's understanding what the aspects of a home signal are telling you, not just that we look for a 'Bottom Yellow' at Columbus Circle to go down 6th Ave. It's understanding that 'flat wheels' do not mean a train must always come out of service. It's that lack of total understanding of what is going on that is the reason we have Train Operators instead of motormen.
Erik, I agree with you that there is a problem with training but the sad fact is that if we did (if we were allowed to) do the kind of intensive training that the LIRR does, if we could get rid of the unqualified, then we would not be able to satisfy the bureaucrats who mandate us to employ the unemployable and train the untrainable.
The 20th century has seen labor become the most expensive item
in the budget, far outweighing materials or energy costs.
In 1904, a train went down the road with a motorman, conductor and
3 or 4 gatemen.
Then in 1922, MUDC came along. And then there were 3 - m/m, c/r
and rear guard.
Then came the age of SMEE. And then there were 2.
Now comes automated announcements and OPTO. And then there was 1.
And soon comes CBTC and ATC. And then there was none?
From the TA's standpoint, as a business decision, the worst
thing they can do is to invest a lot of time and money training
t/o and c/r. Not only does the TA incur costs during the training,
but the more you train, the more skilled the worker becomes, and
therefore the higher pay they command and the more likely they are
to take your training and get a better job elsewhere.
Notice how technology and procedure has been creeping in to overcome human deficiencies? Conductors can't make good announcements.
Fix: automated announcement systems. They open the doors off the
board or on the wrong side. Fix: make them point at things.
Train operators can't judge speed: give 'em speedometers.
They can't understand line-ups: put up little cartoons of home balls
(that really says "bush league"). Can't make smooth stops:
make the brakes longer.
Now, not every train operator or conductor is guilty of these
things. There are some who are very good at their job. But
the overall quality and skill level seems to have been declining
steadily since the 1970s. I think it is a good example of the
business philosophy of "yield management"...the same mechanism
which ensures that you'll always been packed like sardines when
you fly coach.
Jeff,
Apparently, the Chief of Engine Service on the Long Island Rail Road agrees with you.
When the new engines were in planning, there was a feature being incorporated in the design. Something that most other roads have. I remember it at NJT. When the engineer blows the horn, the bell, on automatic, begins to ring. A simple tap of the horn foot switch, makes the system sound the horn blast sequnce for rule 14L/ - - o -.
Vehemntly against it, he declared that " why would we need engineers, then?"
He believes that the man is an integral part of the machine. He also believes in professionalism. If you pay your people what they're worth and treat them with respect and appreciation, they won't leave. Ever see how slow the seniority roster over there moves?
I bet that official doesn't have an MBA (Money Before Anything, Morality Beneath Anyone)degree, it is those people who have made for diminished expectations for most working people in our Mc Donalds economy. The LIRR should be commended for keeping a LEADER in an era of managers
As you know, I'm not known for handing out my praise for management. While I worked at NY&A, I met Jim Dermody, the chief transportation officer, and Robert A. McDermott, the General Supt. Transportation. RAM, to anyone who reds train orders.
These were some of the finest bosses, in terms of operational efficiency and employee morale I have ever seen. Yes, LIRR does hire only the best. As any one who has ever tried to get a job there can tell you. Like trying to get a job in show biz.
Yes, I agree. You were able to more concisely make the point. I had forgotten about that aspesct of lowering standards. It's something affecting all of America.
It seems that the dumbing down of TA, like the rest of our society, is the result of the "have nots" coming to power. Them and their sympathizers.
They, in a fit of jealousy, would take what they have coveted (Good public sector jobs, College entrance) but have not met the standard for, by skewering the system in their favor.
I have always opposed lowering standards just to appease one demographic or another. Look what has happened here.
A great example is the Fire Dept. In order to allow more women, entrance, the physical requirements were relaxed.
If a man is called upon to carry a 50Lb. fire hose or a specific weight up and down a ladder, then why should a woman not be? After all the standards are there for a reason. If a firefighter cannot meet the standard, then he/she becomes a danger to not only themselves, but to their fellow firefighters.
So, if a train operator cannont meet the standard, the TA just lowers it, instead. Now that employee becomes a danger to the public. Any one who reads the paper can see the evidence of this in recent years.
Yep, you got no argument on this one.
I'm glad that we are in agreement on this one. But now we need to take this to it's next logical step. The TA exists for just one purpose: To promote government operation of a municipal transit system while providing the politicians with 100% insulation from blame. Therefore, City Councilman X has a sudden influx of (Russian) Immigrants into his district. He needs to support their quest for work to keep his district stable. He gets in touch with the MTA Board who, in turn, gets the Larry Reuter to get the Human Resources Dept. to relax the requirements of 'verifiable background' or 'able to speak and understand english'.
One quick diversion: When I was hired, I was undergoing my physical. There was a russian gentleman in front of me. While the Dr. was checking his history they had a breif conversation:
Dr: Do you speak English?
Candidate (with a heavy russian accent): I speak perfect english.
Dr: How tall are you?
Russian Candidate: 162 pounds
Anyway, the point I am making is you blame the management of the NYCT for it's ills. The fact is, it is the politicians of this city and state who use the NYCT as a means to gain and retain support for themselves as well as pay back debt, political and otherwise.
I might agree. Except the thirteenth floor has to take
part of the blame. They after all run the place. I only
run the trains.
Sounds like you worked in Coney Island Maint. Shop. When I
worked there it was full of Russian emigre's.
They all came from different backgrounds. One was a
hairdresser! Another was a schoolteacher, and yet another
had been a Factory worker, making metal pots. He was a
MSII.
I was really sore about that then. The requirements for
the CI's job listed FOUR YEARS VERIFYABLE experience, on
the notice of examination. Now none of these guys had
that. Supt. Williams (r.i.p.) told me "What are they going
to do? Call Moscow?"
I had only one year of experience at the time. So I was
really pissed that these amatuer car inspectors had jobs
that I couldn't get, and I had been born here. What really
burned is that I forgot more than most of those
incompetents would EVER know. It showed every time they would ask ME for help. Heck I wasn't even on the TA's payroll.
You know Supt. Mike LoCurto? How about Vinnie DiCarlo?
Charlie Bugge? Joe Santelli? These are some of the folks I used to work with/for.
I have always been opposed to ATO systems because it relieves the t/o of the responsibility to give the passengers a smooth ride. Part of this is the ability to judge speed, since ATO does that for you - and in a draconian manner in many cases. A case in point is the bridge over the Neponset river in Boston on the Red Line. This isn't the Manhattan Bridge, just a simple fixed span with about 20' at mean high water and easy approach grades. The speed limit is 50 in that area although the track was designed for 70 or better. The train starts from a station stop and accellerates to the approach, balancing out at about 47 on the upgrade. As it crests the bridge, it gathers speed on the downgrade. At 52 miles an hour the brakes come on and drop the speed to 47 again, then the power comes back on...
Here again we have the problem that the operator doesn't have to know how to control the train, he just lets the ATO do the work until he has to stop fron the enforced 25 mph at the station. The result is something like having an elevator operator in a push button elevator, he can't really do much about anything. Running a train is a high skill trade, one in which experience and attitude count. The modern signal systems take that skill out of the equation. You get the same (lousy) ride whether a forty year veteran or a newbie is running the train. The Blue Line is the only one left in Boston without ATO, and even there as in NYC, grade timers have proliforated, slowing down the line and forcing the operator to ride the brakes, where coasting sufficed in the past.
Judging Speed is not all that difficult, though it is an acquired skill. In reality such skill was seldom needed on a rapid transit system. Normally the procedure was release the brakes, put the controller on the peg, and shut off and go for the brakes at the proper location to hit your mark at the next stop. I have ridden many a NYC subway train run in this manner, often in the first car, and in many cases the power was still on when the train entered the station. Even so, the stops were smooth and nobody lost their balance.
At Seashore I have to teach operators to run the car, since we can't rely on electronic gadgets. Some people pick it up quickly, others are extremely slow. Just like on a real system, people's lives are in our hands, and we must know what we are doing, especially in a tight spot. If you start with people who are not capable of understanding the responsibilities entailed in operating a train, they will never become good operators. And if you dumb down the system to accomodate them, you insult every person who has learned to do it right. The LIRR at least has the sense to qualify only those who know the job. Allowing underqualified people to become t/os on NYCT only fosters the disrespect evident between the managers and the people who care about their job!
Sorry for the long post, but Erik and Steve have very good points and I hope that those reading their posts will realize that they are taking their responsibilities and that of NYCT seriously, and not trying to flame any particular ethnic group.
Gerry
Gerry...what you describe with ATO is so-called "bang-bang"
control. I've also seen that behavior in S.F. and D.C.
It's a very herky-jerky ride. They have the ATO make the station
stops too, and those are pretty poor in quality.
But, that's 1970s tech. I'm sure today's
microprocessor-controlled systems can do a lot better job in smooth operation.
I like the analogy to a push-button elevator operator. Soon
that's what the train operator job will be reduced to, unless
there is a radical shift in the economy which makes skilled labor
a lot cheaper.
Here's an academic question: which would we rather see: trains
run headless (or with front-end "babysitters") or no trains at all?
However, most new rail systems in the U.S. are light rail with some street running. I don't think you would want to use ATO for street operations.
Unfortunately, in most new LR systems the operators come from the bus driver ranks (Most urban transit authorities are closed shops), and guess how they operate LRV's - just like a bus. Foot to the floor, slam on the brakes - STONEWALL!!
In Baltimore that's basically what happened - 10 of the first operators ran streetcars for Baltimore Transit, moved to the LR and IT ALL CAME BACK!! The operators they trained received the skills from their mentors - and became good rail operators. However, some of the ex-subway operators are the worst - too much ATO. Now the LR's been running for seven years, and we have too many bus drivers.
Well put Gerry, thanks.
When you stop and think about it, you also use judgment when driving an automobile. I can only imagine how things would be if subway trains still had AMUE braking.
As for determining speed, I used to have a good idea of how fast a prewar train was moving by the sound of the bull and pinion gears. Those spur-cut gears were music to my ears. G# above middle C was as high as any train ever got, and that had to equate to 50 mph or thereabouts. The BMT standards regularly reached that pitch in the 14th St. tunnel. On the IND, AA trains of R-1/9s would reach E above middle C between 59th and 72nd Sts. That's a good 35 mph clip, I'd say. D trains running express on that same stretch would be wailing away at F# above middle C at 81st St., which I'd say was 40-45 mph. I once saw a prewar B train making a light run through 34th St., and it was groaning along at F# below middle C, probably 10-15 mph. In my estimation, once the pitch rose above middle C, an increase of one whole step (two semitones) was roughly equivalent to a 5 mph increase in speed. I'm not making any claims that these are hard facts, BTW.
Special Order A440:Train operators must not leave
a terminal in revenue service without a working speedometer, unless
the Train Operator has perfect pitch.
What causes that lovely music, anyway? Is it the successive impact
of pinion gear teeth on the bull gear? The tone is only produced
when power is applied to the motors. During coasting it is absent.
At any rate, if we assume that the frequency of the tone is
linearly proportional to the rotational speed of the motor, and
hence to the speed of the car. But the relationship between
frequencies of musical notes is logarithmic, not linear.
I believe you are correct BUT=== N.B. Steve B will confirm this and provide necessary details ===
I remember vividly the gears of an R6 in full flight roaring away at A Flat above middle C on the straightaway express track between Union Turnpike and Parsons Boulevard, the faster he went, the higher the pitch became. I think they start out at F sharp below middle C or perhaps a octave below.
Wayne
I almost forgot - yes, the wailing and whining would be absent when the train was coasting. I distinctly remember three instances in which the gears would sing out a resounding F# above middle C when the motorman reapplied power. One was on a D train as it hurtled along CPW at about 103rd St. In fact, that was the very first time I rode on an express up CPW - November 24, 1967. The next occurrence was on that memorable E ride in Queens in May of 1968. The motorman reapplied power as the train reached 36th St., and the motors bellowed away as we ripped past that station. Too bad they didn't do that in Manhattan... Lastly, the scenario would repeat itself on the Canarsie as the train approached the lowest point in the 14th St. tunnel. I always think of the BMT standards in this case; however, the R-7/9s did it, too, of course. They didn't lose as much speed going uphill as the BMT standards did; their pitch dropped only to C# above middle C by the time we got to First Ave.
That beautiful, mesmerizing moaning and groaning is caused by the fact that the bull and pinion gears on prewar equipment had spur-cut teeth. These gear teeth are cut straight across and while they are less expensive to produce, they are noisy with successive impact. Postwar cars from the R-10s on have helical-cut bull and pinion gears whose teeth are cut diagonally across the gear surface. They are more costly to manufacture, but are much quieter. That's why you didn't hear such a pronounced moaning and groaning. Some gear noise was present, though. An automobile's manual transmission has both types of gears. The forward speeds utilize helical-cut gears, while reverse gear features spur-cut gears. That's what causes the loud moaning sound when backing up. The Transit Museum has both a prewar R-1/9 truck and an R-10 truck on display; you can plainly see the gearing on both.
Musically speaking, each octave represents a doubling of frequency. The lowest note on the piano, subcontra A, has a frequency of 27.5 Hz based on A-440. The A an octave above it has a frequency of 55 Hz, then 110 Hz, and so on. A-440 happens to be A above middle C, and the R-1/9s and BMT standards came to within a semitone of reaching it at top speed. I'm sure the Triplexes came close, too.
Now, the lowest pitch I can remember discerning from the other groans and grunts is C below the bass staff just as the train started moving. I can't say for sure that an increase in pitch of one octave on a prewar train represented a doubling of speed; however, the gear ratio doesn't change. If it were valid, it would mean that if A flat above middle C represented 50 mph, then A flat below middle C would represent 25 mph. I recall that as a prewar train started from a dead stop, the pitch would ramp up quickly up to about C below middle C, then ramp up a bit more slowly through the next octave, then gradually flatten out at some point above middle C. I never heard a train hold steady at A flat below middle C; the lowest steady pitch I heard on any train I was on was B below middle C as the BMT standards would labor uphill before reaching First Ave. on the Canarsie, and it felt as if we were doing no more than 20 mph, tops.
As Mike H. likes to say, gimme dem old time cars. My ears would just soak up every moan, groan, grunt, and whine that those cars would put out. Ya gotta love it!
And don't forget the little "pfsht" that came from under the transverse seat after the doors closed. AND the "glglglglglgl" of the paddle fans (the GE fans in the R-6-1s and the Pressed_Steel R-9s went "wbwbwbwbwbwbwb".))
Wayne
Ah, yes, the load sensing valve under the seats. I also used to love the throbbing sound of the air compressors. On the R-1/9s and BMT standards, the compressors throbbed at about E above middle C. I did hear them drop to about C# once on an AA train as we left 59th St. As a matter of fact, that was 32 years ago today. (May is AA month for me; my IND sign box is currently displaying AA signs.) The compressors on the R-10s were pitched much higher: A flat above the treble staff. They would sometimes drop down a semitone. And the "tchh-hsss" lap-release sequence as the motorman worked the AMUE brakes. I never heard squealing brakes on any of those prewar cars. Not to mention the "td-dk-ksss" as the door locks and pneumatic pistons released before the doors opened. The R-10s did that, too. Of course, they had the fastest doors in New York. Heck, everything about the R-10s was fast: fast doors, fast compressors, fast speed.
There's something to be said about the way those old cars moaned, groaned, grunted, snarled, hissed, growled, and howled. It was an enjoyable cacaphony (or symphony) of sounds. Today's cars sound pretty bland in contrast.
One other thing: the fans on R-9 1689 emitted a "wadawadawada" sound when I heard them at Shore Line in 1980.
Not to burst your bubble. But don't you think the fact that R9's had open gears and R10's came encased (with oil too) played a part?
Well, anything is possible, so you can't dismiss that. It's a well-known fact, though, that spur-cut gears are noisier than the helical-cut variety. Put it this way: there's gear lube in a manual transmission, but that doesn't prevent the loud hum which is heard when backing up.
This reminds me of the "Honeymooner" episode wher Ed Norton explains how he tells time by the aromas coming from the Chinese restaurant across the alley. Aside from the fact that it too sounds nutty, what's the difference in pitch between a Westinghouse and a GE Gear Case?
You got me on that one. After GOH, most trains now give off a "whhooooooo" which rapidly increases in pitch as they start from a dead stop. The R-44s and R-46s ushered in that sound. One sound which didn't exist before GOH was the high-pitched whine when the motorman cuts off power. It starts out at about G above the treble staff and rapidly descends to about C above middle C. You can really hear it in the river tunnels.
My ears latch onto sounds, musical or otherwise. That goes for speech patterns, pneumatic door controls, bull and pinion gears, you name it.
As for me, I'm tone-deaf. I'll stick to judgement or a speedometer.
BTW - I actually tried my hand at judging speeds. With a TSS in tow, I tried my hand at controlling train speeds without the aid of a speedometer. I was actually able to accurately regulate train speed within 2 MPH at main-line speed and within 1 MPH over switches. Not bad for a novice?
Impressive Steve. Now I need your pass# so I can file a grievance. :-)
I'm always telling fellow musicians that they're better off without absolute pitch. The only thing it's good for is tuning timpani rapidly. Well, that and taking in musical subway sounds. I have a tough time transposing anything, as I can mentally "hear" a printed page of music. If I hear something out of tune, I cringe. I'm surprised my fillings have held up for as long as they have, let alone my teeth. (joke) Want to really throw me for a loop? Have me try to play a piano which is a whole tone flat. Watch me say whoa when I strike middle C and hear a B flat. Wayne can relate to all this, I'm sure.
I'm not complaining, just downplaying.
It's the same when I hear rock bands tune down a half-step (i.e. Black Sabbath, Motorhead etc.). I'm a purist - I keep the "A" string tuned to A220.
As for pitch-perfection or imperfection - do you know what really rattles my remaining fillings? An R46 (and it seems to only happen among these) with two or three different pitched chimes in the same consist. Look at this one: 6018-19 (D-B Flat), 6021 (E-C), 6020 (B-D Sharp). Stand amidships of this bunch and listen - OUCH!!!
And there's always 5927 - the "Stand Or Fall" car - (A-F)
Wayne
Yes, out-of-tune door chimes make me cringe. Most often, they'll all be in the E-C range, but will vary by a quarter-tone or thereabouts. OI VAY! I heard a D-B flat chime on one car once, but never an A-F. For some reason, the R-44s don't seem to have this problem, only the R-46s. It seems the spirit of Charles Ives lives in those cars. He was into bitonality and referred to the stuff he did in his compositions as "poly-everything".
It's about as bad as having the trumpets play in the wrong key at the start of Cappriccio Italien. That happened at one of my orchestra rehearsals earlier this year, and I thought I was going to die!
I just hope my new porcelain fillings will hold up for as long as my remaining silver-mercury jobs.
Actually I tried timing myself once with a watch on jointed rail. When my first wheel anged over the insulated joint of a signal, I started my watch. I then listened for the next set of wheels in particular the third clack, signifying the first axle of the second car. On my average R-10 car I timed just under one second for my trips through the river tubes and into fourty second street. Another way I improved on is the spacing of the tunnel girders as they are spaced exactly five feet apart. It doesn't take a moron to figure that 60 ft/second is 60 miles per hour and motor instructors I have seen in yards using the formula of one car per 6 seconds is maximum yard speed so let me be the first to put my foot down on the matter that the trains of old did have higher balancing speeds than "someone" here is claiming and furthermore as I don't claim to be a spring chicken T/O, I have used the remaining Long Island railroad mileposts on the Rockaway line to accurately time my speed on some of the older equipment as well as trackside survey markers and have found speeds alot closer to the one minute mile then those purported to be 45.
Actually it's 88 ft/sec = 60 mph.
60 miles/hour x 5280 feet/mile x 1 hour/3600 secs = 88 feet/sec
Bill
Harry, 60 ft/sec is approximately 40 MPH. A quick rule of thumb is:
MPH = 2/3 X FPS or
FPS = MPH X 3/2
This will give you a good estimate only
"Harry, 60 ft/sec is approximately 40 MPH. A quick rule of thumb is:
MPH = 2/3 X FPS or
FPS = MPH X 3/2
This will give you a good estimate only"
Of course, if we used metric time and measurements, any idiot would be able to figure out the conversion rate.
"It doesn't take a moron to figure that 60 ft/second is 60 miles per hour"
Now. if we used metric time, as sponsored by L'Assemblie Nationale in 1793, then it would be possible to figure out any speed in seconds, to a speed in hours, to a speed using a longer unit (Well, the latter is possible in countries that aren't as stupid as ours).
When is SEPTA planning to rebuild the Market Street Elevated through West Philly. I thought they were suppose to start sometime last year. I understand they will rebuild it with single columns down the center of the street. Will it be steel or concrete. How will they erect the columns. Will they have them built under the El with traffic using the parking lanes? I heard from an uncomfirmed report that they are suppose to build temperary eleavted structures around the site they are working on. Is that true. It will e like relocating the Frankford El in the middle of I-95 with the temporary "Erector Set" they had trains run on around the construction site. If anyone has any answers please reply, Im just curious. It ashame to that beauty be torn down out there but at least we are rebuilding unlike Boston who is in the process of tearing there last section down.
Budd--
The work is expected to start either later this year or early next. And yes, they will use concrete center columns.
The plan, as it stands now, is to do the work over the weekend (from about 10 PM Friday until 5 AM Monday). They will replace small sections at a time, and link the old and new sections as they go along. I'm not sure of the details.
I believe that Market Street will be closed in the area where the work is done.
Michael
That is correct. To add, the columns will go down the center of the street (a single column as opposed to the two-column bents currently supporting the el). Additional side columns will be placed at station locations to support the platforms. The column foundations and bases are supposed to be constructed first while the el is still in regular service. The column "stubs" will remain until the structure is ready to be removed and replaced. The spans of the new structure will be slightly longer than the present ones (up to about 90 feet) and will be very heavy, thus large cranes will be needed to lift the segments into place.
The work will require the closure of Market Street with replacement buses using Chestnut and Walnut Streets. The work will be limited to long weekends (roughly the times noted) with the requirement to have regular service back by Mon AM.
This should be quite interesting.
Bob--
In fact, this might make an interesting fantrip.
--Ride the El last chance before the work begins.
--Watch them begin work on the first segment.
Like you said, the replacement work will be interesting.
Michael
I'll keep you posted on the schedule for this work. It certainly will be interesting...
our electricity was off for over 8 hours due to the storms last night. when the electricity goes off in new york does your trains just come to a stop, how do you get to home or work and do you have to walk.
I remember the blackout here in NY in 1964 and the one in 1977. I do not know if the trains roll to a stop, or just stop dead.
The people stuck in the trains are taken to the emergency exit or the nearest station and can grab a bus or cab to get home. My Aunt was stuck in the Subway back in i think in 1964 or 1965 NY blackout, she said the Subway rolled to a stop, was lead out of the train to the nearest station and took a cab home. I was a kid back then.
I was stuck in the blackout in 1977 in Manhattan where i work at 50th Street and Rockefeller Plaza and there was no train service until all of NYC was brought back on line. I took a Liberty Line bus from 48th street and 5th Ave to Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx to get home. My Father worked for Con Edison at the time and he told me that the trains are the last ones to get full electricity back due to they draw a lot of power to charge up the trains. They want to make sure that the electricity is all back up in the city first before the trains start running.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
for one thing the electricity for the signals and the other for trains come from two sources. if AC failure occurs signals go dark
and in some area the stop arms go to tripping position. most times power to DC third rail remains and train is without signal protection.
Not anymore. The TA no longer generates its own power. As I understand it, a large-scale power outage WOULD stop the trains, but the signals, which run on lower-frequency AC, which is seperate from the main power grid, so while power to the trains would be out, the emergency lighting and the signals will stay lit.
-Hank
Some stations have emergency lights-they'd run for a while. The turnstiles have a batery so they may actually be lit up as may be the computer inside the booth. Our alarm system also has a battery backup so we could talk to supervision thru the emergency system. Our booth doorlock also has battery backup and I iamgine the police would come to the station and watch the booth. (Supervision would know instantly if the AC is lost at a booth or station--the system automatically notifies supervision even if the station agent does not touch anything.
As fasr as clearing trains while I have never been stuck on a train in a tunnel according to the scanner, the police are called and the police help to clear any stranded trains.
I seem to remember that the City sold the old IRT and BMT power plants to Con Edison in the 1950s as a money-saving gimmick. As I recall, the BMT plant was in Williamsburg and the IRT on the West Side of Manhattan, but could be mistaken.
The IND was powered by power purchased from Con Edison from the start.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
The IRT plant was/is on W. 58th St., I believe.
i thought that the east side irt power plant became con ed's west 76th street station.
Our power is pretty reliable. But when the juice does go off, the train can coast until gravity and friction eventualy bring it to a stop.
Harry once missed a radio call telling him to stop. The Command Center was trying to tell him that there was no power on the CPW express from 72nd St to 110th St. He coasted the whole way, back into a power on zone. Good thing the train had no passengers on it.
Yeah, especially if it was an A train of R-44s.
Speaking of the July 1977 blackout, I left for Switzerland from JFK the night before it occurred, and read about it in Zurich a day or so later.
There is a comedy film titled Where Were You When the Lights Went Out? featuring Doris Day, which is set during the November 1965 blackout. There's a train of R-1/9s signed up as an HH, and the conductor is played by the same gentleman who is better known as the Maytag repair man. In the movie, he can be seen reading what appears to be a train manual.
BTW, Doris Day's character in the movie has a baby nine months later.
Just like in reality. Nine months after a blackout, a major snow storm, a flood and what happens? A baby boomlet.
Just goes to show you that when folks have absolutely nothing to do, they .......
Human nature is unintentionaly funny.
RULE 47 (c) IF POWER GOES OFF
If power goes off while a train is moving, the train should be allowed to coast to a stop in or opposite the next station, or to an Emergancy Exit between stations, if possible. The Train Operator, while coasting, must watch out for persons on the tracks; he/she must sound the horn or whislte, and must stop the train if the person has not given the proper proceed signal or does not appear to be in the clear.
What if an express coasts to a stop at a local station? I had a dream once in which our express came to a stop opposite the outside local platform, the doors opened, and people climbed down, walked across the local track, and scrambled up to the platform. The power was still on (well, it was a dream). I was on a southbound A once when it did come to a stop at 50th St., but of course, the doors didn't open. While we sat, my mother wanted to know if this was our stop or something to that effect. No, Ma. She's admitted that she would think twice whenever she took the subway anywhere without me.
Needless to say, that particular A train didn't come tearing into 42nd St. the way it usually did.
Why is what is apparently a one-time power failure being called an "outrage"?
If you lived where I do, where we sometimes have five or six interruptions during one thunderstorm (summer) or during one ice storm (winter), both occurring several times each season, then a sense of outrage might be expected--but a one-time failure (even if it is eight hours long) doesn't seem to warrant the label of "outrage."
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed, seems like it was probably a typo. The original was probably supposed to be Electricity OUTAGE.
i'm sorry, i should do a better job of catching my misteaks, i did mean outage and not outrage. thank you all for your answers. i guess that the electric does not go off as much in the city as it does here. i have never been to your city but every time we have a bad storm we loose electric. if your trains stopped every time our electric went off you would have big time problems up there.
Most of the power lines in NYC are underground, which is why the power doesn't go out during every storm. Some of us, like myself for instance (in Staten Island), live in areas with overhead power lines and are prone to loss of power during major electrical storms and near-hurricane storms, mostly from trees falling down through the wires.
Occasionally, there are minor power outages in the subway system. This will cause the signals in the affected area to flash to red, causing all their associated stop arms to move to the trip position, which will cause the activation of the emergency brakes on all trains in the area. A few months back there was an incident like this on the west side of Manhattan between 42nd St and 96th St. It caught about 8 trains, mine included.
I was couth in that too. I was at 86 Street southbound on 1 TK.
It depends on your neighborhood, too. Where I live, all our powerlines are buried, and it only goes out if the transformer blows (twice, both on hot days) or the substation fails (only once, and we lost power for about an hour)
-Hank
I lived on Staten Island, our block had underground utilities (even cable) but they all were came in at the end of the block from overhead wires >G<.
I have to go 3 blocks to even find overhead wires; I'm not sure exactly were they come in from, but I know which substation failure will cause my electricity to go out.
-Hank
Just in case anyone's interested, Broadcast.com is featuing "Subplay: New York City Subway Musicians" on Real Audio at it's web site right now (door chimes between the cuts)
www.broadcast.com/albums/s/subplaynycsubwaymusicians_718.stm
In the NY Post Friday May 14, page 16, is a article about the TA's expensive new subway car building program has gotten off track - literally.
The first new subway car derailed during a test run at the manufacturer's facility last week. The NY Post has learned. Transit officials and the manufacter, Bombardier, confirmed the embarrassing incident. The car operator mistakenly put the model car in reverse and ran it off the track, said Joe Hoffman the TA's vp of subways.
The driver of the one-car test was a Bombardier employee, not a TA operator.
After the excellent folks of SubTalk reads the article the rest of the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Bombardier is batting a 1000.
The derailed the ACELA train set (well one of the engines) now a subway car.
Hmmm.......
Maybe TA personnel should have handled the car instead of Bombadier employees. If Bombadier has become cursed in the worst way possible (look at the ACELA derailment!), then I hope Kawasaki does a better job...
Steve, I hope that 5 car train makes it on time.
-Constantine
When will the R-142's be delivered?
What's with the ACELA derailment? I heard nothing of it.
The first R-142's are supposed to be here for testing on the 22nd, I believe.
As for ACELA, well, maybe you'd rather not know.
>Still, Bombardier won't meet next week's deadline to deliver the first five-car model train to the TA. (New York Post)
Posted by Maurice Baker:
When will the R-142's be delivered?
-The R142s were supposed to start arriving next week, Maurice. If there are problems, then don't expect to see them immediately.
What's with the ACELA derailment? I heard nothing of it.
-That's sketchy, but if I'm correct, the ACELA high speed set was being tested in Pueblo Colorado when it went off the track. I believe one of the new Bombardier locomotives (for Amtrak) also had a similar problem.
-Constantine
Not the set in Puebleo. It was a set in delivery that derailed at switching speed, it was spotted almost instantly.
-Hank
I wasn't sure what had happened. Other than that, there aren't any real problems with the ACELA train is there?
-Constantine
One word: oops!
Or two words: oh, s#$t!
Bombardier is bombing out, all right.
Kind of reminds me of an exchange in the original Pelham 1-2-3:
Conductor Carmody: What was that?
Brown: What was what?
Carmody: I didn't know these things went backwards. (and he was the CONDUCTOR! DUH!!)
Brown: Now you know.
The article
According to the story, it didn't derail, the operator of the car ran it off the end of the track! VERY different from a derailment.
-Hank
I can't help but think about that Green Acres episode in which Lisa takes driving lessons. At one point, the instructor has her put the car in reverse and step LIGHTLY on the gas. Lisa floors it and the car roars backwards. I can't recall if the car hit anything, or if the instructor asked Lisa to put the car in Drive, but he did quiz her on the PRNDL shift pattern, to which Lisa replies, "Oh, Prndl, I had vone of dose vonce" in her unmistakable Hungarian accent.
I know it isn't an official reconrd or anthing, but me and my friend just spent 20 hours on BART. We left on the first train of the day and got back on the last. Other than a few short breaks for food and a 45 mimute detour on MUNI lightrail, we were on BART trains or in the paid areas of the station for the entire day. A friend of ours created a web page for the event and we emailed updates durring the day using a radio modem he loaned us. In case you want to check it out:
http://bart-trip.loyalty.org/
The Boston Globe is reporting today that Massachusetts state lawmakers have directed the MBTA to extend its weekend service into the early morning hours on an experimental basis. Details:
Service will be added Friday night and Saturday night only
Service which now ends at about 12:30 will be extended about two hours, until 2:30 (bars close at 2:00 a.m. in Boston)
This will affect the Red, Blue, Orange, and Green Lines, plus selected bus routes
Commuter rail and water ferry services will not be expanded
This test will commence either in fall 1999, or early 2000, and last six to nine months
The estimated cost for this test is $2.5 million
The MBTA is against this plan, saying that is not only expensive (the legislature is giving them extra funds) but it will cut down on the railroad "downtime" that is used to do maintenance
Bar/restaurant owners, public safety officials (who worry about drunk drivers at 2:00 a.m.), and the party-going-general-public, are all looking forward to the test.
A quick story: When I first came here from NYC as a college freshman, I took the "T" from Cambridge to Boston for a Friday night party. Afterward, I headed back to the Green Line station (Fenway, as I recall) for a ride home. It sure was lonely on the platform. Someone was nice enough to yell out to me, "It's about a four hour wait for the next cah!" (It would have been a PCC at that time :-) Huh? The subways stop at night here? Fortunately, I had enough money for a taxi back to my dorm.
Welcome to Bahston, all right.
Charlie Muller pointed us to a article on page 16 of Friday's NY Post about the new Bombardier cars. Below it is a small article about how "critics" are saying that the MetroCard one day "Fun Pass" is a failure because it has only sold 1.2 million from Jan thru April 11th.
At this Depot we get 1,000 uses a day, that's not a very large percent of our customers, but so what ?
I myself used one, a Yankee card I bought, on a day when I knew I was going to be in and out of the system. I got my moneys worth !
Mr t__:^)
1% usage is exactly what MTA/TA wanted. 10% usage they say would have costed $50million. (That figure from the same article). MTA did not want the FunPass PERIOD, they were forced to swallow it and they will do everything or not do to make sure it is not used.
Hey our GREAT WEB MASTER bought one for our Fantrip (#1) and he didn't get the full value out of it too (if I'm not mistaken).
Yup, you're right. I figured we might exit the system at some point to take a look at the Willy B up close but we didn't.
From my perspective, it's a success. My "record high" usage was 11 swipes on a FunPass in a day, thought I'm sure others - such as couriers - can have many more. I'm also convinced that the relatively low sales is due to the fact that you can't buy it at a token booth.
By the way, I recently ordered four via the Web site, and they came in three days, in a "plain brown wrapper." My only complaint was that I got four emails after my order. One to say the order was submitted properly, one to day it was filled, one to say it was shipped, and the other to thank me for my business. It seems to me all of these could have been combined into one, saving a few electrons. But it's a great service, especially for us out-of-towners.
Todd hit the nail on the head. Start selling the Fun Passes in token booths and sales will go up considerably. On the other hand, with the transfer privileges of Metrocard, there may not be that many riders who will actually benefit from using a Fun Pass. In any event, I'm sure those who use Fun Passes, even occasionally, do not consider them a failure.
I for one use the Fun Pass exclusively for my day trips. Last trip I swiped 12 times, for 450% value. They should make it available at some of the booths, at least those in the center of town.
Wayne
How about a World's Record for swiping the Fun Pass? Swipe it at least 1000 times for 1000 different entries into the subway.
Anyone up to the challenge?
You fare card fans like Thurston might enjoy this.
You don't mean in a day, do you?
You can't use them twice within 18 minutes. I and two friends got away with it once at 21st/Queensbridge when we were trying to make the train back to Philly and the booth clerk had pity on us.
p.s.-we got yelled at by a drunk because we went to the "citybound" platform, but trains stopped only at the "Queensbound" platform. After hurling expletives at us, we waited at the top of the stairs before we descended for the train.
Things get hairy in Queens!>:>
There's a counter on the card, so you wouldn't be able to get to that number ... sorry. Also the VALUE card has a FIVE re-fill limit.
Mr t__:^)
Y'know, it's amazing what lengths the Straphangers Campaign will go to, to make NYC Transit look bad. Here's what the May 1999 NYC Transit Committee Agenda had to say about out-of-system fare media sales:
"Out-of-system (OSS) sales during March 1999 were almost $20.5 million, nearly a 45% increase over March 1998 sales of $14.4 million. A goal of 11% market penetration for OSS including retail, mobile, agency and Mail&Ride distribution channels was established for 1999. This goal reflected the introduction of time-based passes by which all denominations but 30-day passes are sold through the merchant network. The March out-of-system MetroCard sales are estimated to achieve a market share of approximately 10%. Sale of the $4 Fun Pass has been quite successful, with weekly sales approaching $120,000 and accounting for over 1% of trips. Over 1.2 million cards have been sold through April 11, 1999, generating $4.8 million in sales. Over 3,000 merchants currently carry the Fun Pass..."
I could go on, but I think the point has been made. TOTAL out-of-system sales were expected to represent 11% of total fare media sales in 1999; so far, they represent 10% of fare media sales to date. The facts were deliberately twisted by the Straphangers Campaign, which claims that the Fun Pass BY ITSELF was supposed to account for 11% of fare media sales.
I don't consider the Fun Pass a disgrace by any definition of the word! In fact, I buy it for my girlfriend whenever I know she's planning to come down to New York City from her apartment in Dutchess County, N.Y.
If the TA really wanted the Fun Pass to work (and we all know that they don't!), they would sell it in the token booths rather than only at "select retail merchants".
Chip
I just heard what ACELA means (the new Amtrak HighSpeed marketing slogan). If someone posted this before, sorry didn't see it.
*A*mtrak *C*ustomers *E*xpect *L*ate *A*rrivals >G<
BTW, ACELA does not mean armpit, ASCELA is the armpit according to a MAFIA friend of mine >G<.
Rob, thanks for information re. JLE. There was a very quiet day at the office today, and I was able to get to Stratford just in time for the first train.
Overall, the opening was a very low key affair. There was little publicity on stations, no sales stands with souvenirs, nothing. LT had not even updated the pocket tube map (it was slightly surreal collecting a map from a station, and the map telling me that the station was not opened yet). Someone needs to give the LT publicity office a good talking too.
I rode down to North Greenwich and then got off each station on my return, taking notes on the way back. Sorry about no photos, but I did not have a camera to hand.
The trains. For someone used to the delicate clicks of PCM traction control, the unearthly whine of these trains (choppers? thyristors?) is very unsettling, but they have very high acceleration, and are generally otherwise quiet. LT has at last shown that comfortable seats are possible in a tube sized car, but the lack of forward facing seats is a definite minus. Also, these trains have some of the lowest windows that I have ever seen. Having said that, the full Jubilee Line will run through some of the least scenic parts of London, so this will not matter very much.
North Greenwich. The most dramatic station on the opened section of the line, and the only one with platform doors. The station has blue mosaic tiles, blue glass and metal towering up from the platform to the concourse. Outside is a bus station, a few car parks, the millenium dome and not much else. Still, this has to be better than the toxic industrial wasteland that it was before. Somewhat oddly, although there are two escalators from concourse up to ground level, there is only half an escalator going down, the rest is stairs. Overall, I am not sure that I like the post-industrial style architecture. It is bleak, inhuman, and will be unsettling at night when the station is empty. It is hard to tell whether some parts of the station are unfinished or whether they are supposed to look like that. It will also be difficult to keep clean.
Back to Stratford. Under the newest Thames Tunnel, the welded track gives an incredibly smooth ride. Back to the surface where we join the North London Line (NLL) and run parallel with it, duplicating the next three stations. No cross-platform interchange is available at any of these, which is a grave oversight. On the other hand, two parallel railways is a waste. The NLL should have been closed down and the North Woolwich branch transferred to the Docklands Line.
Canning Town. This is awful. The location is a major road intersection, with flyovers, pylons, a bus station, and not much else. There are some blocks of flats in the distance, and some shops even further on. In the heyday of LT, stations were planned to be the centres of communities, with parades of shops built around them. Stations were advertisements for the Underground, with attractive, inviting, brightly lit buildings. This station is badly signed, and is as inviting as a nuclear bunker. The entrance is rather bizarre. You go down some stairs to a ticket hall, then cross under the approach road to the bus station via a subway, and then go up again to the platforms. I am sure that they could have done better. Inside the station is grey. Grey concrete, grey plastic, grey metal. Only the signs and fire alarms add any colour. This place is bleak, and people will go out of their way to avoid it. Having said that, it was a very sunny day, and the sun shining through the glass roof did add some warmth. However, this made the in/out arrows on the ticket barriers impossible to read. For photographers, the Docklands platforms are above the JLE platforms, and give an excellent view of the river, Millenium Dome, surrounding railways and the bus station.
West Ham. This is the most human of the stations, with red brick and glass block station buildings. There is even wood (the platform seats). The ticket hall has a nice vaulted ceiling which is reminiscent of the the 1930s - 1950s era of station design. There is quite a lot of walking to do here to get from line to line and to the exit, although there are an amazing number of escalators to help. Outside is quite an attractive residential area, even a few shops, although the station building itself is undistinctive from the outside. However, even this station has bleak industrial wasteland as scenery, on the same side as the Stratford-bound platform.
Stratford. Finally, thanks to LT's terminal (over)protection, we limp into Stratford, a full 60 yards short of the buffers. There are three terminus platforms here, again adjacent to the NLL. The ticket hall has been taking shape next to the main Liverpool St commuter line for months, and is very light and airy inside, lots of glass, wires and cantilevers. In order to get to the bus station, two lots of ticket barriers must be negotiated -- I hope that this is just temporary. For all the lavishness of the ticket hall, the actual platforms are rather exposed to the elements. A cheaper and longer building would have been better.
So there you have it. The first leg is open and it works. I still believe that this section of the line is a white elephant, and its vast stations full of escalators will become a maintenance liability. I really can't see how the passenger targets will be reached other than peak period journeys to Canary Wharf. For the rest of the time, the line just does not serve useful destinations. Lets hope I am proved wrong, because LT have spent an awful lot of money for a stretch of line that I predict will turn out to be not much more busy than the Stanmore branch at the other end. I also think that in this day and age, tube sized cars are an anachronism: cramped and unpleasant. I wonder how much more expensive the line would have been if it was constructed to surface stack standards.
PS points failure at White City wiped out the Central Line on the return trip, plus the headline on the evening paper was about someone being murdered by being pushed under a train. Back to reality (sigh). Wonder how many people died in London in road traffic accidents today.
How does London fund the expansion of their subway system?
I've seen stories in the NYC press announcing the cancellation of the plans to recycle the City Hall Station as a Transit Museum annex, owing to "security concerns" in City Hall. Why have there been no cries of anguish on this discussion site, or better yet, some proposed plans for a letter-wring campaign?
Guliani is selfish and cares only about himself. We will have to wait
until he's out of office. I thought the station is owned by the MTA. Isn't that part of NY state? I'm sure the governor would let us in.
lets consider this
number 6 trains relay thru the old City Hall station
4-5-6 train station Brooklyn Bridge is nearby
City Hall station of the N/R is close by also
As usual Guiliani is using security as an excuse to block the museum proposal in the abandoned City Hall Station.
why doesn't he just stop having the 6 train also from running thru I see that also as a security breach. Is he going to have police board trains being relayed in the area I think NOT!
Actually, at times they have been. Back in March I was there waiting for the 4 and two policemen walked through the train after the doors were closed to ensure that no one was on board. My older son (on spring break from college at the time) was disappointed as we had hoped to get a ride through before catching the 4 back to Brooklyn. And, as noted in other posts on this subject, they have occasionally had an officer on the platform of the old station as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That is why they had a cop down there at City Hall Station, in his own booth protected from the steel dust to make sure a happy railfan didn't jump off the 6 and set off a bomb to blow up city hall.
I don't see why they couldn't set off the bomb without getting off the train though....
Actually, the station (along with the rest of the subway system) is owned by New York City.
David
[Guliani is selfish and cares only about himself. We will have to wait
until he's out of office. I thought the station is owned by the MTA. Isn't that part of NY state? I'm sure the governor would let us in]
Happy?:)
Somtimes when I come here at night, I want to post a new message but cant. The "Click Here to Post New Message" html link disappeared. I reload my browser but it still doesn't show up. What happened?
Send me some email privately and we'll talk about it.
Here is some e-mail that I got from the site administrator in response to the same problem:
It isn't a problem. Some sites have been banned from posting (including
certain Erols' networks) because of the past behavior of some of its
users. I have no plans to release the lockdowns. It is a case of many
suffering for the actions of one untraceable individual.
Hey Lyle, thanks for posting my private email to you on the site. Next time if I want that done I'll do it myself.
I already spoke to the user in question privately and he has not yet replied to me with the information I asked him to provide. The fact is, yes there are some sites that have been banned from posting. Before this dissolves into another flame war over the way I run the site, consider that if everyone behaved themselves no policing would be necessary. Since that's not the case, "laws" are made, freedoms are restricted, but hopefully only to the point that 99% of the population can still enjoy the site.
No replies are necessary. And don't post my private email again.
Sorry about that. I thought people had a right to know the reason.
I at least should have edited parts of it.
If there's anything about the Regional Rail I'd get rid of it's the R6 Cynwyd branch.
Is there anything redeeming about it? It's just a short line that doesn't get many trains at all(only during rush hours).
You may yet get your wish...
The line may be eliminated, depending on the final alignment/service patterns/equipment that will be used on the Schuykill Valley Metro. Some of the plans have the Metro using part of the R6 Cynwyd line before it curves off into Center City.
Michael
Since the R6 stopped running to Ivy Ridge, with its sizable park and ride lot and once-loyal rider base, the line has languished. It is now down to single track with only a handful of weekday trains and the ridership is about 300 on a good day. SEPTA had proposed several times to abandon it but the riders refused to allow it, thus the line continues to run. With the better parallel bus service, the line doesn't really need to exist, but SEPTA has decided to give in to pressure.
Bob...When and why did SEPTA decide to cut back R6 from Ivy Ridge to Cynwyd?
Carl M.
You Philly area folks probably can correct me if I'm wrong (I'm from Noo Yawk) - but my recollection is that the bridge over the Schuylkill to Manayunk and Ivy Ridge was unsafe and not worth repairing.
BTW - the R6 is a remnant of the old PRR line to Norristown, correct? When I rode the R6 from Norristown into Center City, the old PRR r.o.w. was clearly evident alongside.
The Ivy Ridge side of R6 was cut back to Cynwyd about 88-89 I believe. I'm going to check on the exact date. The reason, as Andy stated, was the deterioration of the big concrete arch viaduct across the Schuylkill River. SEPTA repaired one arch and the contractor went to court afterward, so another is still "in the box" (the wooden forms are still around it), one arch is done, and the rest of them still have netting to catch falling concrete.
The PRR side was cut back from Norristown to Manayunk in 1960 and extended to Ivy Ridge in 80-81. The Reading side, which parallels the PRR R/W, is the R6 Norristown line. Little is left of PRR's line, with much of it now a bike trail. Some evidence of the high-level platforms of the PRR station at Norristown can still be seen next to the Reading station.
[The Reading side, which parallels the PRR R/W, is the R6 Norristown line. Little is left of PRR's line, with much of it now a bike trail. Some evidence of the high-level platforms of the PRR station at Norristown can still be seen next to the Reading station.]
Bob - Wasn't the old PRR station demolished when the Norristown Transportation Center was built? I know what you're talking about, but I was around there to pick someone up at the TC after Christmas and I didn't see any of the old platforms. The high level platforms at commuter stations outside of Philadelphia was rare; however, PRR did a lot of transfer traffice from the northern parts of the branch to the electric trains. The electric trains of the PRR originated at Haws Avenue in Norristown prior to 1960, but the branch went as far as Reading. That too was abandoned in the late 1970's after the advent of Conrail.
Jim K.
Chicago
Gentlemen - thanks for responding to my post. Wouldn't it make more long term sense for the remaining Pennsy (Cynwyd) R6 route to tie into SEPTA's existing light rail routes in West Philly and enter Center City in the existing 1955 streetcar tunnel? I realize that the track would need replacement because of the wide gauge trolleys, but the service level would certainly be better than what runs now.
BTW, what is the proposed route of the Schuylkill Valley Metro - when it reaches East Falls how does it access Center City?
Yes, operationally the Cynwyd side of R6 could be tied into the subway surface lines, although the ridership levels would hardly justify it.
The Schuylkill Valley Metro is slated to use the R6 Norristown from there down to Ivy Ridge, then follow the old PRR across the Manayunk viaduct (R6 could be truncated at Ivy Ridge or Manayunk if this happens, or another scenario has it as a feeder line between either of these stops and East Falls) and use the R6 Cynwyd right of way for a stretch until just before joining the Paoli (Main) Line. At that point, it would go onto new R/W through Fairmount Park, passing the Mann Music Center alongside Parkside Avenue, to Girard Ave. At Girard, it would use the Route 15 streetcar tracks in Girard (which would need to be dual gauged), serve the Zoo, cross the Schuylkill River, then duck onto the CSX East Side line at Poplar Drive. This would take the line onto the old City Subway Branch (ex-Reading), also known as the "Callowhill Cut", to (take your pick) 17th St, 15th St or 12th St, where it would use street trackage to Center City. One of the new baseball stadium sites is at Broad & Spring Garden, which would put center field adjacent to the SVM if it goes east of 15th St.
IS the Callowhill cut the one that runs under the Ben Franklin Parkway (near the Kelly Drive) for a short period?
If it is, then there will have to be some serious reconstruction there. The tracks have been torn up north of (I believe) 25th Street. In fact, the stretch between 21st and 22nd Streets of the railroad cut I'm thinking of is used as a parking lot for the 9th Police District stationhouse.
Then again, I may be thinking of another bit of track.
Michael
The cut actually breaks away from the CSX East Side Line beneath Pennsylvania Ave across from the Art Museum. The East Side Line continues in its own single track tunnel beneath the fron steps of the Museum and exits just north of the Vine St Expressway alongside the Schuylkill River. There it becomes double track and follows the east side of the river.
The cut continues under Penna Ave and swings around to between Callowhill and Hamilton Streets. The new 9th District police station is right up against it (the bridge over the cut is literally right next to the station door). Much of the cut no longer has track and the piece between 20th St and 21st St, where the new Fresh Fields supermarket is (the former 9th District station site), infringes upon the cut fairly substantially.
The tracks beneath Penna Ave are the reason for the large vents/grates in the median island in Penna Ave. West of 27th St, Penna Ave narrows considerably and the railroad is out in the open alongside it.
Yes, I believe you're correct. The platforms existed until they were mainly removed when the Norristown Transportation Center was built. I think a small portion of them may still exist toward the Dekalb Street end (I'm fairly sure the stairways from Dekalb are also there). The next time I'm in the area, I'll check for sure.
There aren't, surprisingly, many Phila area stations with high level platforms. On the Reading side, none existed, until Temple, Fern Rock and Warminster came (well after the SEPTA era). PRR has Chelten Ave on the Chestnut Hill West, Chestnut Hill West itself, Trenton, and Wilmington (even though the outside platforms are the original low ones - the center high platform was built for the Metroliners).
To second Bob's comments many stations are little more than concrete bus shelters which are easy to miss- many are also so lightly used that they are flag stops. Two come to mind on the Trenton side of the R7--Bridesburg and Wissinoming. The conductor will come throught he car and ask "anyone for Bridesburg or Wissinoming" (If someone says yes groans go through the train!
More will be forthcoming On Peggy's and Bob's Pending SEPTA regional rail Pages. This page will cover the entire regional rail system, including NJT's Atlantic City Line. Stay tuned!
Is the new Hudson/Bergen light rail electric or diesel?
I seem to recall reading that it was to be diesel or was I reading about the planned Trenton/Camden light rail project?
The Trenton-Camden line will be diesel. Hudson-Bergen is electric. Pole bases are installed along the line in Jersey City.
Some time ago, I wrote a planning document that held that the New York City and State environmental review process -- which makes it easy to delay virtually anything indefinately by filing lawsuits -- is one of the reason the city's infrastructure has gone down the tubes. The people who administered it were furious, claiming that the process was imposed in response to "bad" highway building and doesn't hurt mass transit. See the LaGuardia posts to see who was right. I think I'll E-mail them to that effect on Monday.
BTW, the report, called "The Planning and Zoning Report," was never issued.
Unfortunately the very laws and regulations meant to protect the public involvement and review process in highway and transit funding legislation have worked against anything useful getting built, and in many cases, rebuilt. The "anti's" have found ways to create controversy, which usually causes federal funding agencies and politicians to back away from projects. The public has been empowered by these laws, etc, thus often bad things result.
The most interesting group I've seen with this is the bicycling lobbies. They fought everything there was that helped autos, and they even fight transit (since it's viewed as competition - go figure). But, now they insist on bike lanes, accommodation, etc and anyone who opposes this is a bad person, narrow minded, obstructionist, etc.
So much for the land of the free...
The Bike crazys are at their worst in Brooklyn. They want Prospect Park's vehicle lanes closed to cars. You know what? I want the park closed to bikes. Cars to in one direction, with a speed limit, and stop at the light so you can cross from outer to inner areas of the park. Bikes go in both directions, don't stop at lights, blow whistles to tell you to get out of the way, and go faster. I worry that one of my little girls will panic and run the way the bikes swerve, and get killed.
Might as well say people with dogs out of the park. Or frisbees. Or bar-be-ques. Or children. Or kites. Or, everyone but me.
I think Barbaques are already banned from most city parks.
-Hank
I can't figure the bike nuts out because they're getting what they want but they continue to fight. I think that they don't know anything else but how to fight and it's been so successful for them that they stick with it?
Here in Phila, West River Drive is closed to autos on weekends from 8 AM to 6 PM, ostensibly for bikes but rollerblades, walkers, etc can also use it. It parallels the Schuylkill Expressway and offers a nice alternative if the Expy goes flooey, which it often does. The past 2 weekends have featured regattas which place major detours on the other Expy alternate, Kelly (formerly East River) Drive. Guess which road was backed up beyond belief? Of course, the Expy. Guess how many bikers were on the Drive? How many fingers do you have on two hands? Attempts were made several years ago to re-open the Drive due to low usage, and the bike lobby came out in name-calling force to fight it.
I can't totally say that bike accommodation is a bad thing. Many bike riders, on the other hand, are totally militant, obey no traffic laws, know clearly what that middle finger is (and how to properly use it to signal drivers), and are adamant about what 'rights' they have. This is what bugs me about bikes. I have one and I ride it, too, I'm a little ashamed to say, especially when the Critical Mass idiots do their thing (in case you haven't heard, this is a large group of bikers who blatantly tie up rush hour traffic to prove a point).
t
Ever wonder what certain terms stands for like IRT is Interborough Rapid Transit, BMT is Brooklyn Rapid Transit and IND is Independent City Owned Subway. How about some funny ones:
MTA Money Thrown Out
BMT Bums Muggers and Thrives
IRT Irritable Rundown and Tired
MARTA Maximum Application of Relentless Turmoil and Antagonism
Can you name others? Give it a try.
CTA-Claims Thrown Away
Amtrak-Another market to raze America's K's($1000's)
SEPTA-Simple extras putting time away
MBTA-.....Meanwhile, Boston takes action
MMTA-Makes Metropolis totally atrophied
LIRR-Let in real riders
NJT-New jam, today
PATH-Place all trust here
PATCO-Putting all the crooks out
NHSL-New heights in style loss
IND-Indoubtedly never dull
UMTA-Unless my trust allows....
MTA- More Trouble Ahead
MTA-Makes Traveling Awful
NYCTA-Net Your Claims through Absentmindedness
NJT= Nasty Junky Trains
(slightly off topic)
Don't
Expect
Luggage
To
Arrive
TWA- The Worst Airline
IND It'll Never Do
IRT It Runs Terrible
BMT Barely Moving Trains
MTA Must Take Automobile or Automatic Teller Machine
That depends on your point of view, Passenger or Employee
NYCTA Name Your Crime Training Academy
RTS Rolling Ton of Sh**
CED Can't Ever Do
SEPTA Society to Eradicate Public Transportation Anywhere
SEPTA slow expensive prone (to) traffic accidents
SEPTA stupid engineering plan thwarts acceptance
DART does anyone ride this?
When service in the early 90s was being cutback, Toronto residents starting referring to the TTC as Take The Car.
how about...
Don't
Even
Let
Them
Aboard
I Stated in a tread about the No.2 and No.5 swaping routes going Uptown. That will be Sunday Only. It stated 23:00 HRS Saturday Night to 5AM Monday morning. Now Next Weekend is when the IRT will be more messed up then this. When I get more Information I will let you know.
So Saturday at 11PM the GO will start. So every thing I said in the previous tread is true but only this Sunday. Saturday afternoon there will be regular Service with a revised Schedule.
Thanks for the clarification Dave. So next weekend will be "GO Heaven" eh? It's a transit and weather together weekend for me :-) See you on the IRT!!
Next weekend there is a major Genaral Order in the Bronx for the No.2 and No.5 Lines. The No.2 and 5 will both run spit service.
On the NO.2 Line
1) 148 Street to Flatbush Ave
2) 241 Street to Flatbush
Trains will run 20 Minutes apart from 149 Street Grand Concouse TO 241 Street. No.2 Train run every 10 Minute from 135 Street to Flatbush. So there will be packed trains from 149 Street to 180 Street.
No.5 Line
1)149 Street Grand Concouse Upper Level to Bowling Green
2)E 180 Street to Dyre Ave
This is all because of a Singal Track Operation from 149 3 Ave to 149 GC.
Lenox Yard will have some of the Redbird in the front part of the Yard.
Pelham Bay Dave:
A GO on the 2 and 5? I'm not at all surprised! This kind of GO has happened frequently before. New tunnel lighting is being installed in the tunnel between the portal at 149th and 3rd and Grand Concourse.
Previous GOs (tunnel lighting installation) of this type only took place on Sunday. Usually 8PM Sat to 5AM Monday. It will be unique in every way.
I know that the new lighting on the southbound track is already done, so I guess that makes the northbound track the track going out of service, which leads to another strange situation...
Northbound 2 trains will crossover at 149 St GC to the downtown track and wrongrail towards 241 ST. By the way, there's no proper indication to switch to the downtown track at the homeball on the northbound platform at Grand Concourse, so there will be a dispatcher on the platform to coordinate moves. At 149th and 3rd Av, the conductor makes an announcement. Next stop Jackson Av! What? Did he say Jackson Av? Yes, the conductor did say Jackson Av. There is no direct way back onto the uptown track. As a result, the northbound 2 will head into the middle track approaching Jackson Av. He goes up to the homeball on M track and dumps his train. Another operator is on the south end and charges the train up (he boarded at 3rd Av). He takes the train over the switch and proceeds onto the uptown track, wrong railing a short distance before the track curves into the portal. The operator on the south end dumps his train and the regular train operator charges up and heads on his normal route to 241 St. Again, there's no proper indication to the uptown track at the homeball in the middle south of Jackson. A dispatcher who is on the track, coordinates moves in the area. There's at least a 10 minute delay getting to Jackson Av from Grand Concourse. A good way to make all local stops? Perhaps. Figure this one out...
-Constantine
Just to elaborate on something, Pelham Bay Dave, I have no definite knowledge as to which track will actually be out of service. The southbound may be out of service again for yet another time. If that's the case, then southbound 2's will proceed into Jackson Av, change direction, and take the crossover into Prospect middle. Of course, a relay train operator will be aboard on the north end (boarding at my home station, which is Jackson Av), so the regular motorman won't have to run back and forth between operating cabs. Now the train proceeds down the middle and wrong rails onto the uptown track through 149th and 3rd Av before switching back to the Brooklyn Bound platform upon entering Grand Concourse. The movement onto the uptown track requires a dispacther and a baton, because there's no corresponding signal at 18 Ball (Jackson Middle). Personnel are located also at GC.
Just to tell you how crazy I am, I decided to ride through this crazy reroute, even though I only had to go one stop! How long did it take to get to 3rd Av? A 2 minute ride, now takes 10 minutes!!! That didn't bother me as I enjoyed the ride.
Other folks had a negative reaction. Shortly after 8:30PM on a Saturday night, the GO had gone into effect. Conductor made announcements about the reverse move and there was a bad reaction from the people. I heard one person complain and decided to take the bus downstairs. There was also some kind of commotion in the back of the train as I was leaving Jackson Av Train Station to head into my house. The commotion delayed the train. I got upstairs into my house and looking out the window, I noticed the train still hadn't moved. After 15 minutes or so, the train made the reverse move.
People are just ungrateful. This move was planned by TA personnel not to inconvenience anyone. I mean that the train wasn't going express from 174th or 180th Streets. Why go uptown and make a transfer to the downtown train at some distant location? What do you think? Does the reverse move benefit anyone or should the train have gone express?
-Constantine
Yes you are currect thats how the No.2 will run this weekend. I remember do Similer GO'S to this at least 4 times on the No.5 from 149 Street GC. and 2 time on the No.2 doing a Mix like start at 148 Street or 96 Street and end up at E 241 Street so I would park my car at 241 Street and Deadead downtown mainly rideing with the Conductors I know. By E Tremont the train is packed with no standing room. The Conductor would get Verbale abuse and all that. "Your LATE you inconsiderite" Well you get the Idea. Know there are more camplaits about the train going reverse then if the stop was skiped period. There is one major reason why they wouldn't run the Express. Thats because of the 20 Minute Headway. You would add 40 Minutes to your run by takeing the 2 trains. Ofcause the Relay personal are probably working Overtime but well worth it. One other thing the trains don't run on time with all the confussing so the trains end up waiting an extra 5 to 10 Minutes for a boton.
Dave,
Thanks for the response. I will be out riding in that reverse move on Sunday.....
It's really unfortunate that conductors and motormen get a bad rap. Conductors and motormen are only doing their jobs. I don't necessarily have to agree with the TA's ways of handling things, but that's the way things have to be.
Take Care,
Constantine
That is true. Nothing but 4's are passing in front of my house. I only saw 2 Redbirds. Due to the Yankee game, they are running very frequently........
4's were terminating at Atlantic Avuenue. Redbird 5's were putins for the yankee game, the one I rode terminated at Bowling Green but ran express (S shuttle letter front end, cars all signed for regular 5 service).
There's was a GO on both sides of the 4 (a double whammy). There was no service on the 4 between Woodlawn and Kingsbridge Rd due to switch replacement at Bedfor Pk Blvd, as well as the construction work happening on the el between Utica and New Lots Av. Redbird 5s as a put in for the Yankee game were particularly surprising. Those trains went down to Bowling Green, went out of service, and came back north to 239 St Yard, light. The Baseball Put In that I observed heading uptown to the yard had signs for Woodlawn which were extremely unusual because there was no service to Woodlawn on Sunday.
-Constantine
Except for a charter, I had never ridden the Ravenswood Line in Chicago. I rode it out today and got off at Western Avenue. The line, out from Belmont, is double track, but just before Western, a middle track exists.
A train could not reach this middle track from the direction of travel. The only way to get in would be to back in. At the north (west?) end of the station, the middle track shows remnants of a ramp. Anyone have any ideas as to what the deal was with this middle track and the ramp?
The Ravenswood Branch of the Northwestern Elevated Railroad opened in 1907. Western Avenue was a temporary terminal before it was extended to Kimball/Lawrence.
The middle track at the Western Avenue Station, the last elevated station on the line, has always been there. I looked in my copy of "Chicago Rapid Transit - Volumne II" at the map for the Ravenswood. The map, circa 1975, shows a reverse move must be made to cross-over to the eastbound or Loop bound main.
As for the ramp, the entire line decends to grade level west of the Western Avenue Station to continue its trip to Kimball.
Too bad you didn't ride a little further, as the trip on the grade-level right-of-way is the most interesting part of the Ravenswood. The stations at Rockwell, Francisco, and Kedzie are all center platform also, so a quick across the platform transfer to a Loop bound train is possible. Of course, the ride all the way to Kimball allows you to view the yard and shop.
-Jim K.
Chicago
Hi Jim:
I have a great video tape of a ride on the "Ravenswood" line which shows all the neat stuff you talked about. I can give the title to anyone who need it.
Keep railfanning!
Chuck Greene
[I have a great video tape of a ride on the "Ravenswood" line which shows all the neat stuff you talked about. I can give the title to anyone who need it.]
Hello back to you Chuck!
Is it the Ron Carson tape from 1987? I have that one also. It features the Rave from Kimball to the Loop; the Evanston, when it was really an Express, from the Loop to Howard; and the Skokie with a 1-50 series PCC car running to Dempster?
It was one of Ron's first tapes, but I put it in the VCR from time to time for a look. There are have a lot of changes to the neighborhoods that the Rave runs through.
-Jim K.
Chicago
That's the tape! It is really a cool ride. Someday when I get to the "Windy City" I'll ride it for real!
Chuck
Didn't the ground level portion have overhead catenary at one time? I think I've seen photos of 4000-series cars on this line, with trolley poles raised.
[Didn't the ground level portion have overhead catenary at one time? I think I've seen photos of 4000-series cars on this line, with trolley poles raised.]
The Ravenswood always had third rail. Your thinking of, and have seen pictures of, the Lake Street 'L'. This line decended to grade running west of Laramie. It did so until it was elevated onto the C&NW enbankment in 1962.
Jim K.
Chicago
I believe you're right. I stand corrected. Thanks!
I NEED HELP ! Someone, anyone, be kind to help me out with makeing my own interlockings for the NXSYS Subway Simulator. If you have made your own and could help me drop me a line @ node4600@geocities.com
Thanks
Doug Tackach Jr.
At 57th Street and Sixth Avenue, there is a large map of the subway. Just like in every other station in the system. It's the three foot by four foot type, typical of the ones near the token booth.
This one is on the Mezzanine, also typical. The one difference is it's the old type with the bold and angular lines. Green "CC" and black #5 etc. Really a rare find. Especially at a midtown location. If I were to find an old relic like this, it's ussually at some under used outlying station. Cool stuff.
Hey, does anyone else in Subtalk know of any other stations or places with these rare old maps?
Whenever I wish to flashback, I just pull out my World's Fair Map, or others from the 60's, or the 70's. Cool man!
Right On!
This all reminds me of the 1950s and early 60s. In 1947, the Board of Transportation (precursor to NYCTA and MTA) had new maps of the subway system installed in all of the stations. These maps were not replaced until the early 60s, years after many lines shown on them (such as the 3rd Ave. El in Manhattan and the Lexington Ave. El in Brooklyn) ceased to exist.
While it is nostalgic to see these old maps, it is also disheartening that the TA has neglected to change these maps. Imagine if a tourist looks at that old map!
In the N train Broadway station in Astoria, there is a large bus map which has a piece of paper inserted on top, reading something like, "This map does not reflect changes made to bus routes in Dec. 1988"
Read that again: 1988, NOT 1998!!!!
Tourists were trying to use that map at 57th/6th when I was last there.
IIRC, the reverse side of the glass case holding the seemingly mint condition 1970's map holds an up to date copy of The Map. I can't imagine the 1970's map being simply overlooked if they kept the other one up to date, and it's not exactly in a hidden location. But then, it's still there ...
Maybe its to make up for no Transit Museum @ City Hall....
Or perhaps they wanted to have another station frozen in time besides the never-used Roosevelt Ave. terminal station...
There's a funky, subway map from the 1970's still in use at the 57th Street B,Q station. It's Groovy BABY!!
One of those maps lasted well into the 1970s on the overpass at the north end of Stillwell Ave.
Peg and I spent a good solid 7 hours riding on this train and that today - it was truly a pleasure to ride an express on the Fulton IND during the weekend, and a double pleasure to get non-R44 equipment in both directions: an R32 going (#3767 with its odd mate #3650) and an R38 coming back (#4130 - Again!). We took a number of Redbird pictures up at the Freeman Street IRT station, as well as a number of the station itself. A G.O. we werent' aware of thwarted our attempt to go to the Rockaways so we settled for Lefferts Blvd instead, I haven't been to that station since 1973. I took a number of pictures at Nostrand Avenue IND, both levels. We also got a sneak peek at the new mural going up at Canal BMT - it's behind a plywood wall but I angled my camera through a hole in it to get a shot. The Canal Broadway station ceiling is in dire need of repair- it's beginning to fissure and powder and grow stalactites. I don't know if it could withstand the vibration of passing trains in its current condition.
We also visited places like 168th-Broadway, where I got a peek at some Canarsie-style tiles behind the elevator bank, not accessible to the General Public, 145th-Broadway, 116th-Broadway, 7th Avenue-53rd, etc.
I'm probably going to start scanning again once I get this pile developed - had to take a break from it for a few weeks.
Thanks once again to Peg for all the "inside information" and also for a very enjoyable day
Wayne
Today's lead Daily News editorial concerns the station's re-birth in the Farley Post Office:This Station's Bound for Glory
Good news for all of us that remember the faded glory of Pennsylvania Station. I, for one, REFUSE to get off in the basement of a sports "palace". I get off in Newark, take PATH (H&M to some of us) to Exchange Place and change to the 33rd street (NYC) line to get to Gotham. (A side trip is a visit to the 7 line and a ride to Franklin Avenue and back, thence as above.)
I dont like the current NY Penn either. I am not being gruesome but if they ever needed to clear the platforms in a hurry, more people would be hurt/killed by the panic then the emergency.(translation : They'd be trampled, knocked over, etc.) They need more stairways leaving the platforms!
I didn't get a chance to read all the stories on the new Penn Station, and maybe this was answered there. But I was wondering how they would set up the LIRR to operate from the west side of Eighth Ave. when the current station operations are far closer to Seventh Ave.
Will they keep the old location in service and add new ticket windows and stairs below the Farley Building? Or will they put the ticket windows west of Eighth and make people walk almost a block back east to board the trains? Or put everything over at the Farley Bulidng and shut down all the entrances near the 1, 2 and 3 at Seventh Ave.?
It took the MTA so long to get the current LIRR facility at Penn Station finshed after they tore down the old building, I've got a feeling having the new one ready by 2002 is way too optimistic.
It is my understanding that "New Penn Station" will be for Amtrak with NJT and the lIRR using "Old Penn Station". Of course there will be connections between the "old" and "New"
There was a similay story in the Feb 28th Newsday with maps and photos
Mr t__:^)
I understadn why the signs cant go back to roll signs but I have another idea:
on B Division R40 and up and IRT R62 and up the signs are where the old fan window was-the side opposite ther train operators front windshield.
The concept: place a roll sign (Like on R40 and up) there. A panel could be placed inside that the T/O or C/R could open to change the letter via allen wrench like the side signs. The present signs could be left in place and not used (turned off)- I realize cutting might be needed .
Ah, if it were only that simple (but a great idea none the less). Unfortunately, the bulkhead pocket on the R-32 & R-38 is a lot narrower than the pockets on later models. Remember that the pocket accepts the storm door and there simply would not be enough room for the End Sign (manual or electric) foward of the storm door when open. Next time, look how far back the storm door is set on the R-40 through R-68A. There's at least an additional 8" of clearance provided for the end sign.
Can't be any more difficult than trying to decipher #3698's end sign - completely illegible from a distance > 15 ft., covered with a thick film of munge, grime, filth &c.
BTW - it did say "C", or so we think...it was the last car of a "C" train. We also got R32 on the "A" - #3767/3650 (odd) - that sign wasn't too bad - glass was clean but the bulb looked kinda dim. Once outside at Lefferts, the dots were clearly visible.
Wayne
Plan B: What about a mylar panel that could be inserted like a filter over a spotlight? (or ma slide in air conditioner filter? I dont think on one day that an "A" train could become a "B" train (the letters are just random lines not the A or B Train). Before leaving the yard the crew would have a "Rule" to pickup two mylar sign panels (Front and rear).
A great idea would be the LED-lit flipdots used on the newest buses. They are MUCH more visible than flourescent lit signs. They could also use LED's that change color!
(Coulda shoulda woulda dept.:) They should have done exactly what Buffalo Transit did when they installed the signs in the R38s. Those
are bigger and more visible than those on the R32. MKCO didn't use the same sign manufacturer that GE/BT did.
The LED-changing-color idea is a GREAT idea but there's one catch -
they need BLUE signs for "A", "C", "E" etc. and the materials needed to make Blue LEDs are VERRRY expensive. DC Metro uses a thin band of Blue LEDs on their front signs of their cars (for their Blue Line), so it CAN be done, but at what cost...
Other good LED colors: Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Lt.Green (I think)
Wayne
Common (and cheap) LED colors are Red, Green, Amber, Infra-Red, and Bi-Polar, which is either Red, Green, or Amber, depending on the polarity applied (amber is achived by alternating the polarity quickly)
-Hank
For those of us whose vision is a little broken(bad retinas-no cure in sight) a LARGE colored sign is WAY more visible than the sorry ever so hightech electronic stuff. If nothing else the Slant 40's ushered in a level of convenience. 1 And Mylar is cheap compared to an electronic rig.
I admit, I have a book on NYC Subway Cars, and the 1964 "Brightliners" looked a lot better then than they do now. In Chicago, they tried this "electronic" destination sign and the CTA board and the outcry of the public not being able to read it from a distance. The R32s & R38s also had marker lights that motormen flipped on when they began their run too...there in NYC, they no longer use them. I'm glad they still order cars for CTA with them and they are used everyday. People recognize color signs and identify with them for whatever line they ride! Some things aren't worth changing!!
Yes, the R-32s made quite a splash when they first arrived on the scene. Without a doubt, their blue doors were their most distinctive feature. I also vivdly remember their side destination signs illuminated in green. It's nice to know they're still rolling along, even with those illegible pixel signs.
Marker lights were originally used to help tower personnel identify which route a particular train was operating on, since rolling stock had no route signs at one time. It's true the riding public also became very familiar with the various color codes. I must admit that I never paid any attention to them, much to my regret. They're not needed anymore, what with button consoles at stations adjacent to interlocking plants.
Back again on the "marker light" issue...I remember seeing a movie on the TV set in New York City, and they showed a glimpse of the R-32 subway cars, and I remember the blue doors of the people getting off. In Chicago, the CTA trains still use the markers, but the "skip-stop" A Train, B Train was discontinued about two years ago. If the markers were amber (or yellow) this was an "A" train, if they were green, this was a "B" train. Other lines use them like Ravenswood Line uses red and green, Evanston Local uses yellow and red, Evanston Express uses lunar white markers as all "Not In Service" and work trains do. The R-32 R-38 and others prior the cars mentioned also had them. You just look down the track and knew what train was coming. I guess progress will take the place of many transit treasures we railfans enjoy, and sometimes take for granted. :) Enjoy your day!
Markers were and are still the best way to determine at a distance
what train is coming. For a New Yorker, having this information
at the earliest possible moment is key. With the R32/38
little green end signs, sometimes you don't even know what train it
is when you are standing right next to it! The R40-R68 scheme of
the big colored letter is good, the only problem is along Manhattan
trunk routes where every train has the same color....prior to 1977
or so, under the previous color scheme, no two trains that normally
operated through the same station had the same color. The current
Manhattan trunk color scheme is yet another example of pandering
to the "we want to be more like X" crowd. I've even heard folks
on trains in midtown referring to the "green line" or the "orange
line". BARF What, are we in Boston? [No offense
Todd, Gerry et al.]
Markers were that nice little bit of bonus information that a
seasoned rider could pick up on. I know back in the early 80s
I knew all the markers for all the lines I commonly rode on.
If I were back in Car Equipment Engineering again and had some
pull, I'd make them add electronically-switched marker lights
that automatically display the right combination based on the
setting of the electronic destination signs (well, we certainly
can't expect the Train Operator to set them by hand!)
I can see where marker lights would come in handy for passengers on a given line with two or more express or local services operating at the same time. The BMT Broadway line in its heyday is a good example, especially when all three express services were running.
When I started riding on the subway regularly, I became accustomed to looking for the letter marking above the storm door, and never paid any attention whatsoever to the marker lights. On top of that, I didn't even know what they were for if I did notice them. It wasn't until 1984 when I returned for a visit that I started noting every combination I saw. I got a very quizzical look once from a motorman of a D train of R-32s when he saw me writing down the green and white combination. When I explained what I was doing, he replied that should be the correct code.
Sometimes, a train could be identified by the equipment, if it was assigned exclusively to one route. At 59th St., if a train of R-10s pulled in on the express track, you knew it was an A train.
I'm not against marker lights. They served a very useful purpose. I wouldn't mind seeing them put back to use on the Redbirds.
This would be my plan A: I'd purchase a new end sign with an outer shell made of Stainless Steel that could be mounted on the outside of the car. The sign would be larger and more visible than the existing one and fit over it. It may make the front somewhat less streamlined but it would be cheaper and more cost effective than redesigning the cars.
I've set up a page of Upcoming Events due to the success of our first SubTalk FieldTrip. I will try to add some more events to the schedule as time permits.
Can we try to have events on afternoons other than Friday? Vary it a little?
I second the notion.
I'm sure during the summer more weekday/weekend trips will crop up. I have plans to do a couple redbird photo shoots soon among other things and I'll try to do them on a weeknight. I think Fridays are good for a lot of people because it's easy to get out early and for many it's dress-down day.
Bravo, David. Did this trip when I was east last fall except for orange ave. The PCC's are way fun and the tunnel stations are interesting. Plan to ride again when back in October. Have fun all!
Dave, You keep makeing this site better & better ... thanks.
P.S. Add Sat 5/22 Tour of Coney Island yard & shops ... assume it's sold out as I received ticket #50.
P.P.S. How do you feel about special events at some of the local museums, e.g. NY Days at Branford comming up in June ?
(assume they would need to be subway/bus/mass transit related)
Mr t__:^)
I figured it was too late to list the Coney Island tour for this coming weekend. I'd be very surprised if it isn't sold out.
I definitely plan to list special events like the NY Days at Shoreline. People can either submit them to me or I'll add them as I read about them. I'm debating whether to try to put other Transit Museum events in there since they sell out fast.
-Dave
Re: TA Museum Tours ... good point.
The only advantage/benifit eye can see is that it might get folks interested in finding out what the next one is, as well as selling the last few tickets that might be left. Eye got a copy of a schedule of events that I didn't know existed (actually I got two, one form a SubTalk pal).
Second thing is it may start a thread afterward. I remember Marc & I getting asked a number of questions after we got into the IND 8th Ave lower level. I didn't mind answering.
Just some thoughts for you to factor in when you decide.
Mr t__:^)
75 mph under Second Avenue is it possible? My second avenue plan has a part when a train will go express from 125 Street to 42 Street with no stops in between the two stations and the train will be straight for 4 miles no curves, no switches. So it is possible to have a new car designed that can reach speeds of 75 mph to go throught the tunnels? Thanks
Christopher Rivera
I think that if they build something, they'd want it compatible with existing systems. In theory a subway train that can go safely at 75 miles at hour might be compatible, as far as I know, subway cars can in theory go faster than they do already, but don't for safety and comfort reasons. Look at how much some of them shake when they speed up for long stretches?
I believe BART trains operate up to 80 mph through the Trans-Bay tunnel.
However, a plan for a non-stop run from 125th Street to 42nd Street would also require another set of tracks for local service, and I don't think there is any chance a four-track subway is going to be built. A non-stop two-track subway wouldn't be built either because it wouldn't be supported by residents of the Upper East Side.
if any contruction were to be done and be feasible it would have to be a four track line with express and local service. Upper east side is underserved as it stands. A four track express option from 125 as far south as say 63rd st connection with local service still on east side say still on second avenue to Water Street in the financial district.
At the moment the MTA is still going with two tracks from 63rd Street to 125th Street, which is the same as they planned when construction was suspended twenty years ago. It's going to take some arm-twisting to even get that much done.
When the MTA decided on two tracks (this was around 1969), they thought of the 2nd Avenue line as an express-only operation. North of 57th Street, the only stops were to be at 86th Street, 106th Street, and 120th Street. (This was when the line was supposed to go straight north into the Bronx.) Community pressure forced them to add 72nd Street and 96th Street.
The revived plan seems to have the same station locations, except that 125th and Lexington is substituted for 120th and Second.
My plan has 4 track but at 125 Street it is 6 tracks that is all. If you want more info just send me an e-mail
Well, the R44 and R46 were ordered for the then 'soon-to-be-completed' Second Ave Subway, and they were designed for high-speed service. I believe a set of R44 were tested on the LIRR at 90mph.
-Hank
I think that is right. The designed-for top speed of the R-44/R-46 was recently listed in another thread here as being 70 mph. Pretty close to 75.
But forget about a non-stop run to 42nd St. At the most, there could be a non-stop run to about 66th St., i.e. to just north of what will eventually be a split to either go west on 63rd St. or continue south on 2nd Ave. A more likely site for this station would be around 72nd St.
Building the 2nd Ave. line this way, without intervening stops, has been advocated before on this board, as a way to build it with minimum cost. But it does seem that, if the people in the intervening neighborhoods can get no benefit from the line, they are more likely to object to it and try to block it. At least one intermediate stop, say at 96th St., would seem to be inevitable. Some pretty high speeds should be possible even with that stop.
I heard that a R44 or an R46 achieved 83 miles per hour during testing on LIRR tracks.
A train of R-44s topped out at 87 mph during tests on the LIRR. A second test was performed with several motors cut out to simulate a passenger load, and the same train reached 77 mph. There was a previous post on this which suggested the LIRR's higher track voltage may have contributed to the higher speed. It's pretty impressive, nontheless.
Yeah, but at 83MPH the traction motors bird caged!
That's when the centrifigal force on the armature is so great that the motor windings come off. Then what ussualy happens is the motor seizes. Then you get a mile long skid, with the resulting three inch flat spotted wheels. One of my instructors on the railroad was the LIRR pilot for the R44 tests.
I heard there were subsequent problems on the R-44s after those test runs. That had to be one of them.
At this point, I'd be satisfied with 40 miles per hour just about anywhere. As I've said, when the traffic on the street moves faster than the trains -- despite the stoplights -- you've got a problem.
QUESTION: I understand your post but how come NJT which uses electric cars can do 89 MPH (I've seen digital speedometers in some Arrow III cars and they read 89) or are they using different type of motors- How about Amtrak's electric AEM locomotives and the NJT ALPs
Buff:
It's all horsepower and gearing. An ArrowIII has 760. An ALP44 has 7000. The AEM7 at Amtrak puts out 6000.
LIRR M1's 560, and M3's do 600. All that in comparison to our paltry 400. I say 400, because of the recent modifications to the propulsion systems of the TA's fleet.
Spec is 460. Still way underpowered if you ask me.
But yes the Arrows do have different motors. They use AC instead of the typical DC that's been used up until recently.
Erik
It must be the modifications, specifically, the absence of field shunting. The R-10s had four 100-hp motors apiece, and look how fast they were.
Buff:
It's all horsepower and gearing. An ArrowIII has 760. An
ALP44 has 7000. The AEM7 at Amtrak puts out 6000.
LIRR M1's 560, and M3's do 600. All that in comparison to
our paltry 400. I say 400, because of the recent
modifications to the propulsion systems of the TA's fleet.
Spec is 460. Still way underpowered if you ask me.
But yes the Arrows do have different motors. They use AC
instead of the typical DC that's been used up until
recently. In order for the motors that produce this extra H.P. not to birdcage, the axle gears are higher. A slower rev per minute for the motor, and a faster one for the axle. The results are higher speeds, traded for slower acceleration. But to do this you need more H.P. Car transmissions use the same principal.
Erik
Not to mention the 12 mile stretch under the Bay to Staten Island which would require speeds at least that high to reach Richmond in a reasonable lenght of time.
The ride from Bay Ridge (95th Station) into Manhattan is a living nightmare owing to the extradonary number of local stops made in the Brooklyn part of this line as well as the large number of local stops made from lower Manhattan all the way to Midtown. Could the transit authority re-institute express service on the R line (which it had some number of years ago)? Such express service would not only be useful on weekdays, but would also be valuable on weekends. Are there any transit authority plans in this regard?
No Broadway Express service until the Manhattan Bridge is fixed (if ever). Though when they do shut down and switch sided on the bridge in the coming year or two (or 3 or 4) we might get back Broadway Express service.
Take the N on 4th Ave for express service then it is only 4 or so more stops on the R. Weeknds and Nights forget about it...
The R train is affected by the deterioration and potential loss of the Manhattan Bridge. Not only will there be no express service, but someday the N and B might terminate at Pacific, leaving everyone to crunch onto the R.
as it is right now there is hardly enough service on these lines.i ride the b every morning and it rarely runs express in brooklyn due to night track work. hopefully things will change for the better.when and if the bway side of the bridge ever gets completed..does anyone know a completion date?????
[as it is right now there is hardly enough service on these lines.i ride the b every morning and it rarely runs express in brooklyn due to night track work. hopefully things will change for the better.when and if the bway side of the bridge ever gets completed..does anyone know a completion date?????
How old are you? I'm not planning to see it done in my lifetime!
Jim K.
Chicago
I'll answer with a question of my own: What will happen first: full resumption of service on both sides of the Manhattan Bridge or the completion of the Second Ave. subway? Don't hold your breath!
Just for the record, the 'R' train and its predecessor 4th Avenue Local never had regular express service.
There were Wall Street Specials which constituted a handful of trains, inbound AM, outbound PM which, as the name implies, operated to the Nassau Loop only.
When R27s were assigned to this run, they generally were signed "M"--no relationship whatever to current "M" service.
Back in the 60s, when letters were being phased in on the Southern Division routes, stations had placards which cross-referenced the new letters with the old route titles. They had the heading, "Know Trains at a Glance". The letter M was included, which cross-referenced the title, "Nassau St. Express". The M signs on the R-27s had the subscript "Nassau St." I believe the R-32s also had M/Nassau St. signs; however, they did not keep the old Southern Division titles the way the R-27/30s did originally.
The current M route replaced the old #10 Myrtle-Chambers route.
I took a walk today, over to the site of the old College Point station whose picture, among other historical LIRR pictures that I purchased from Ron Ziel. I made an extensive search of the area named by the address and map Bob Anderson was nice enough to give me.
Out of curiousity, has anyone ever walked the entire ROW of the branch looking for remains? If so, did you see anything.
The most I saw was what looked like a rail in the station area. I would have followed it, but in one direction there was a building, in the other a grassy overgrown area between two buildings blocked by barbed wire.
Also, I'd like to go back, and walk the entire thing, from Whitestone to Shea Stadium or vice-versa. Anyone interested in organizing a day trip?
I think most of the line is ripped up and builded over. Not much left. You might want to check out the single rusty track behind the
NYCTA #7 yards. Where is the location your were at located?
I will. But I was doing an exhaustive search of the site of the College Point station, as I said.
In the Ny Post Monday May 17, page 28, Editorial Section, is an article on crime in the NYC subways contine its precipitous eight year drop. In the first four months of 1999, major felonies - a category that includes murder, rape, robbery, assault, burglary and grand larceny - fell from nearly 2,000 in 1997 to under 1,500 this year.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the article, your most excellent thoughts are mosrt welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Blvd.
What they say about the relationship between ridership and the perception of crime has always been true. Riders will not be lured back to the system if they fear crime. Combine the reduced crime rate with MetroCard discounts and ridership is way up. Too bad nobody thought of trying to cut the crime rate in the past. Eyes on
the Subway
I was overdue for one:
I'm at W. 4th St., which was twin-level, but each level had one track and one platform. An A train of R-38s pulls in, and the first car has a round blue A sign above the storm door instead of the electronic version.
But that' not all. I went to the lower level to catch an F train, and when I got there, an F train of slant R-40s, no less, was crawling out of the station. Why was it crawling? A couple hundred people were PUSHING it, for heaven's sake!
It's got to be because of all those everybody-out-and-push posts.
My subway nightmare is one of walking barefoot at the 1/9 South Ferry station before the rebuild. UGH!! And barefeet on the gap fillers!!!
I dreamed on was on a northbound #4 train sometime in the mid-21st Century. The interior of the car was covered with large video screens. Some of the screens were showing commercials, others just seemed there for the entertainment of the passengers. On the front bulkhead of the car was a floor-to-ceiling screen showing the route number ("4") and another one showing the destination (Cross-County Center in Westchester County).
If Ronald Reagan could consult astrologers, maybe we should bring up these ideas at an MTA Board meeting.
I dream that all signals on the New York Subway are either green or green over green. I also dream that the #4 train becomes airborne at Woodlawn Terminal and continues off the end of track over Woodlawn Cemetery for a great aerial view.
COOL STUFF!!!
I'm glad you brought up green over green. That's my favorite signal aspect at an interlocking plant while riding an express train.
One of my dreams involved an E train of R-46s in Queens. I was headed to my sister's place with a bunch of her LPs, or so I thought. As the train left Continental Ave., I fixed my gaze on the interlocking signal by the scissor switches before 75th Ave. Green over green! Hey, we're skipping 75th Ave! At Union Turnpike, I got off, then realized I forgot the records.
The funny thing is, this scenario repeated itself in real life several times while I transported my sister's LPs, but the only difference was I never forgot any of them.
We had a real treat on the Fulton Express last Saturday - a field of solid green as far as the eye could see, automatics, homeballs, all of them shining full green or green-over-green with nary a GT in sight until almost Euclid. Naturally, our trusty R32 responded in kind.
What a treat it is to have Fulton Express "A" trains on the weekend!
Wayne
Don't you wish the R-10s were still around? I do! I know they were still running on the A when it began running express in Brooklyn once again during rush hours, but never had a chance to experience that combination.
That goes for the slant R-40s as well after they took over on the A. Never had a chance to ride them along Fulton St., either. I did ride on an A express in March of 1978, but the cars were R-44s.
The R-10's were no big deal. I wish the open platform elevated cars were still around the BMT and IRT.
You and me both, especially the BMT!
It's the summer of 1963 at about 9am and my Grandmother, my sister and I are walking up the stairs to the Coney Island bound platform of the 86th Street Bay Parkway station on the West End Line. Just in time; look what's pulling in: an 8 car train of ABs!
Looking out the 1st car, we wait for the Coney Island bound Sea Beach train of D-types to clear the bridge (at this time both the West End and Sea Beach shared the 2 tracks over the creek).
Last stop Stillwell, and we exit and go over the foot bridge to the Brighton Line where an almost new train of R-27s (no bull and pinion gears; BOO!)will transport us to Brighton Beach where my Grandmother has her annual summer locker.
As we exit the train at Brighton Beach an express of D-types has just blown its whistle and is pulling into the center track where it will terminate. (did I mention all those wonderful ABs and D-types we passed that were laid up and between Ocean Parkway and Brighton awaiting rush hour service?)
Well, come the pm, we do the trip in reverse back to Bay Parkway. How could you beat it? And if you needed a quick IND fix all you had to do was to glance over while at Stillwell to the Culver line and see those R-9s!
WAKE UP MICHAEL, WAKE UP!
Gimme dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me!
Well, the R-27s had bull and pinion gears, but since they were helical-cut, they were much quieter. Not totally silent, as you could still hear them, but nowhere near as audible as on the prewar units.
Even the R-10s had some gear noise if you really listened.
Steve,
Actually it's not a dream...more of daydreaming *on-the-job*! I deliver mail in the Edgewater area, just west of Denver...I always picture any NYC Subway cars like R-9, R-46, etc. running on NYC-like Els along where ever I deliver! Most common daydreaming is a line on West Colfax Ave especially when I walk and deliver mails between Sheridan Blvd. and Pierce St. I can picture trains running local towards to the next station :o) I'm sure you can "picture" Els in Denver!
Michael Adler
Mailman in Denver
Actually, I never have pictured els in Denver, believe it or not. A subway along Colfax Ave, yes, but not els.
I'm usually good for one weird subway dream per month. Usually something is totally wrong; i. e., missing tracks, 14-car trains, resurrected R-1/9s or R-10s (nothing wrong with that!) nonexistent lines, trains which never stop anywhere. You get the picture.
...and I'll bet the slant would have still been faster than the R-68s.
For the PCC trip on6/4/99, a suggestion: How about meeting at the PATH concourse level next to the island Hudson News?? This way, we dont hang around on the platform looking for unfamiliar faces, potentially being in the way of passengers..etc. Also that way we go thru the fare control as a group....Same thing for the secondary meeting at Newark-Penn...make it at the top of the stairway going down to the subway....just a suggestion to make it a little easier for people...
I vote no to that... It will be MUCH easier to meet on the platform (the "outbound" end of the Newark-bound platform). The platforms at WTC are extra long and the trains never reach the far edges of the platforms. There will be ample room to wait without getting in anyone's way. The mezzanine during a Friday rush hour will be complete chaos. If you have ever waited for someone there and just watched the crowds streaming down you'll realize what I'm talking about.
-Dave
See it's been advertised track 4 & 5 and we have such lovely directions from the esclators I vote NO on changing.
For the reasons stated by Dave and Lou, we will keep the plans as originally announced. I will post a few reminders between now and June 4th, and will try to figure out about what time people can meet us at the top of the staircase at Newark-Penn Station as you suggest.
As I said it was just a suggestion...I yield to your superior knowledge of the facility..am really looking foward to this trip and meeting you folks....
Walked across the Williamsburg Bridge Yesterday and I have to say that I was impressed by the progress along the subway line in just a week.
I'm no engineer but here's what I observed:
The old tracks and track support had been cleared for the length of the bridge.
Brand New track support had been laid from the Station on the Brooklyn Side almost as far as the Brooklyn side tower.
Also they had huge spools of what seemed to be electrical cables out on the bridge.
Why does the Manhattan Bridge take so long???
Different bridge, different problem, smarter solution.
-Hank
Hi All!
I was just wondering if there were any graphic artists out there that might be willing to come up with a few small logos for the site. I was thinking specifically of a Subtalk and a Bustalk logo (maybe a "talking" train and a "talking" bus. I'm not much of an artist myself...
-Dave
Hey, Dave!
I'm a production assistant in a graphic arts dept at my office. I'll give it the old college try!
I will work something up during the week and hopefully have a 'rough' to download to you over the weekend.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
Just a quick update from the Brighton Line, ties and track have been laid but has yet to be ballasted at Prospect Park for the Shuttle as of Sunday evening.
It was nice to see the track back, the removed signals have yet to be replaced and I don't know how far north of the station track was laid. I'll keep an eye out.
Is the track renewed on the southbound side? Or will this be history?
The southbound track in Prospect Park station was never pulled up. Nor was the interlocking blocked with ties across the running rails and red lights like they did on the northbound side.
Northbound the rails, signals, ties and ballast were all taken up, and now have been replaced and the connection renewed at the interlocking.
I PASSED UNDER I @ ATLANTIC AD TRACK WAS THERE.. I MENTIONED THIS A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO..........
Been there for two months now because i alway pass there every weekend
Does anyone know if there is anything left of the Dean Street station?
Does the demolition plan include the removal of the station entrance/fare control area?
Wayne
Everything including the station entrance has been taken off, it seems. If you pass by the Station on the B65 bus you will notice that there is rubble and a bridge. We will no longer see the remains of Dean St again. Alsoon the subject what is going on with the Brotanical Gardens/ Franklin Avenue Stations, when it is also over would the original entrance to the Brotanical Gardens would also disappear? On other hand I love what they are doing to Franklin Avenue Station - Why is not name the Fulton St station instead, it makes sense doesn't it? (You may refer to this to the Park Pl Station it might as well be the President St Sta?)
It's gone. I walked by there a few weeks ago and it was pretty much the way Q train described it. Even the rubble didn't have anything resembling station parts. Unless there are some structural renmants on the bridge or ROW there's nothing left to see.
After a very relaxing week on the Brighton Express, I returned home to Queens this week. Yesterday I worked the E.
As has been the custom of recent months, there is a service diversion. This is due to the major capital costruction near Queens Plaza.
Now, as we all know, the riding public takes a good amount of time to get used to service changes. Yesterday saw the suspension of R service in Queens, and had E and F service running on the wall, local towards Manhattan, and express toward Jamaica.
If you were coming home from Manhattan to say, 63rd Drive. You would take the express to Forest Hills, then cross over to take a Manhattan local to your stop.
Well, as usual, there were hardly enough signs. I don't know if they had been torn down, or never put up, but there was surely a lack of proper signage.
To compound matters, there were no platform personnel whatsoever. At the most crowded station on the line, Roosvelt Av. I had to sit for two minutes. Repatedly I had to call out the directions and the service changes while confused people held the doors and held me up asking me questions. Always the same variation of the same question. "Woodhaven?" "Steinway?"
Now, knowing this would happen, I had given detailed instructions over the P/A system at least twice between stops. But it never trully helps. There are always people who need individual attention. One Asian man asked for help. I had to draw a picture of two stairways, and a map!
Now I don't blame these poor confused folks.
I blame the CHEAP BASTARDS WHO RUN THIS FARCE!
With G OPTO on the weekends, and there being at least TWO WHOLE PAGES of Condctors sitting extra board (on the clock, but not actually having an assignment) every weekend, there's no excuse for this! Why aren't there platform men?
In the past, these kind of jobs would have been done late at night. This took somewhat longer to complete the job. But it would have inconvienienced much less people. SO, as is the standard operating procedure lately, TA does the work in ten whole weekends instead. And now builds the hostility against the MTA that is routinely displayed towards ME! But! They saved money!
So what if we inconvience thousands of people? Who cares if hundreds get lost? We didn't have to pay overtime to the track men! We didn't have to pay the platform Conductor! Who cares? Those rubes are still gonna ride the subway! And we still get their MetroCard money! HAhaAHHa!
It's a shame this happens. But that's the way it is when Management cares only about cost, and nothing about what our real purpose is: SERVICE.
Claps and applause to you Erik!
As always your voice of reason is well appreciated.
Keep it coming!
Later, Doug aka BMTman
(PS -- I will have more pics to you in a couple of days)
Why doesn't the TA care? Could it be because they are a monopoly? Keep that in mind in the next thread about private vans.
I was happy to see that this Saturday (5/15), there were signs on every pillar at Lex/59 notifying people of the lack of 'R' service (and suggestions for alternate routes) between 57th Street and Queens.
This was probably because of last weekend's debacle, during which there were no signs, no announcements, no platform guards but loads of irate passengers.
I had attempted to contact the appropriate station manager but got steady busy signals most of last week. When I finally reached someone, before I could finish my sentence, he said in a very weary voice, "Yeah, yeah, we know, we'll put up signs next weekend."
Nice to see that someone's listening.
P.S: There appears to be five- count 'em, FIVE models of rolling stock on the 'N' currently: 32s, Slants, Mod 40/42 combos, 68s and 68a's(!). Combined with the 46s on the 'R', this certainly makes the Broadway-4th Avenue commute interesting.
Yep, you have got that right. Saturday we saw four of the five aforementioned car-types in service on the "N", all between Pacific Street and 8th Street. The only one we didn't see was the R68A.
We rode on R68 (which was a partial foursome; we were in #2796) which took FOREVER (well maybe 10 minutes) to go neath the River and after Canal we had an R32, #3680. We saw the R40M at Canal, and the Slant at Court Street. In the Slant's consist were #4310-4311, the stars of "The Cowboy Way". We did not notice if there was a rope tied round the pantograph gates and/or the Slant Safety Bars :o)
Wayne
Sitting Across from Queensboro Plaza I have seen on the N:
R68's R68A's, R40M's, R40 Slants' and R32's.
Also the 7's are still running 11 car I assume like last year they will NOT switch to the summer 10 car setup. I'll let ya know.
They'll keep 11 cars because there is no light riding schedule.According to the car service notice, they are supposed to be running 8 car trains on weekends and weeknights.They won't cut because of the extra personnel needed.
I can just see them running 8-car trains on the 7 after a Mets game.
They used to do that.The reason they were supposed to run 8 cars on weekends was because the headway at peak times is 5-6 minutes.They would still be able to keep some trains in the yard.When you run 11 cars,with the same headway,more trains are on the road.
Your message about the "N" got my attention right away. When I lived
in New York as a boy (I moved to California in 1954), the "N" was then
the #4 train, and ran from Times Square 42nd Street to Coney Island's
Stillwel Avenue. It was my favorite train and the first thing I did
when I visited New York for the first time (1974)in 20 years was ride
that train. Unhappily for me, the #4 train had become the "N". It still bugs me to this day. What's more, no one seems to be able to tell me when the #4 became the "N". Is there anybody out there who can? I have written to members of the subway club but they haven't
answered me, which also makes me steaming mad. I plan to visit New
York in August and will ride the subways, especially the "N". Let's
hear from somebody.
Y
The letter deisgnations for the BMT began about 1960 with the arrival of the R-27 trains. The decided to standardize the BMT and IND as letter routes, since those lines were being mixed more and more, while the IRT was given the number designations.
The R-16s, which arrived just after you moved out of New York, were the last trains to use the BMT numerical designations.
J. Lee: Thanks a lot. Yoy can't imagine how hard I tried to find this out and how fruitless it was. I do remember getting a copy of the national edition of the New York Daily News in the summer of l960 and the number designations were still there. The change must have come soon afterward. If you know anything about nostalgia, then you must have some idea of how disappointed I was that the "Sea Beach" was no longer the #4 train of my youth. Four was also my lucky number when I was a kid. Thanks again.
I would suggest that you read Joe Brennans work on the "Letter, Number and Color Codes of the New York Subways" which can be accessed through NYCSUBWAY.ORG's transfer station...I believe it's under "Rail and Transit Information" .
The switch came in the mid 1960's and as I recall there were several years of dual identification.
Marty: Thanks a lot. Boy, the answers have come in hot and heavy. Most importantly, they all add extra information. Thanks.
The IND and BMT divisions were merged in 1967 with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection, and with that merger, the IND letter code was extended to include the BMT, and all BMT number codes were dropped. The Southern Division routes received new letter codes in 1960 with the arrival of the R-27s. The problem with the BMT number code was that it was never consistently applied across the board on all trains - mainly because most BMT subway rolling stock; i. e., the BMT standards, did not have front end route signs. Until the R-16s arrived, only the Triplex units had such signs, and they spent the bulk of their careers on the Brighton and Sea Beach lines. They ended their days (way too soon) on the West End in 1965.
I've always had an affinity for the N myself. My very first subway ride was on an N of brand new R-32s on July 21, 1965.
Hey Steve: Thanks a million. I got another reply but it only took in
the 1960 aspect you talked about. At least we have something in common. Whether it's the "N", or the #4, we seem to have an afinity for the Sea Beach. Thanks again.
Hey, don't mention it. You'd be even more disappointed with the N today. It runs express only in Brooklyn, and then only during weekdays. It can't use the Manhattan Bridge because the tracks have been shut down since 1990, and becomes a tedious local in Manhattan.
not even that, but only express from like 6:30 to 8:00, then its local, and every morning its packed and there always has to be a bum sleeping in the car i go into.
laterz
blackdevl
And the R68's breaking that fine tradition wonderful rolling stock!
What are you kidding me? I was on the N saturday! After yelling myself hoarse, that " THERE ARE NOOOO ARRR TRAINS!" there were STILL 12 or 15 poor souls standing there. I gave travel directions while we were in the station, with the doors open, to no avail.
We really need platform men.
What are you kidding me? I was on the N saturday! After yelling myself hoarse, at Lex/59 that " THERE ARE NOOOO ARRR TRAINS!" there were STILL 12 or 15 poor souls standing there. I gave travel directions while we were in the station, with the doors open, to no avail.
We really need platform men.
By the way, I was on a rice burning 68'. I think it's the only one on the line. The regular frog cars dominate there. And the ridgies have gone scarce. Good. I LOVE R40's!
Heck people still look surprised that 6th Ave/57th street is THE LAST stop on the Q/B. It always amazes me when they get on the northbound train and we start going south, the look people give!
Yep. I had Q301 last week. I know exactly what you're talking about. Probably that ancient map by the token booth. Hah AHa h hAha h ah!
I am a station agent and have worked on platforms for various G.O.s and have screamed my head off that all trains are local or there is no Manhattan Service or such messages and still they wont listen!
We can not force them to go to a certain location- only the polcie can do that. We can try to explain to the customer but unless the customer is in an unsafe location or restricted area there is nothing we can do.
I have also tried to get other passengers that do understand to explain to the hard heads and the hard heads still dont listen! I have even seen hard heads ignore trains on their line that came in on "the wrong track". Riught now I am working a lunch relef out of 125 and Lex. While I am at this station awaiting start of my tour I am down on the platform and at this time the 6 transitions to ending at 125 lower level and some 4 trains come in on either uptown track and yes some uptown 6 trains arrive where the 4 should be. Yes- some still dont listen there either!
Eric, Eye two say thanks for you post. It good to know that there are a few employees who care about the service that is provided !
Mr t__:^)
There was a concrete pour at Continental Ave. for the new switches. You have to suspend service all weekend for it to harden.
Just this evening, there were 3 GO's on the E. They were single tracking from Parsons/Archer to Jamaica Van Wyck (one nite only); all trains express Jamaica bound from Roosevelt to Continental; and a brand new one which will go on for a while: Queens bound E trains via 6th Ave from W.4 to Fifth Ave./53rd St. due to track work around 50th St./8th Ave. lower level. Too many for one night on a short line!
Will there be signs on uptown platforms from 14/8 Avenue to 7 Avenue/53 notifying passengers of no Queens-bound 'E' service? Let's hope so! (Okay, there probably will be tape blocking the stairway to the lower level at 50/8 Avenue preventing people from going down THERE, but lack of signs will keep people standing at the other stations watching many C's and D's go by.)
There are signs on pillars/posts. What will happen soon tho is disappointed passengers will rip them down out of frustration!
Tape wont stop the people. I have personally taped various platforms with 3-4 rows of tape and still they break the tape or go under When I tell them there is no train they wont move and yes, they cuss when after 1-2 hours there is still no train. (Yes, they still dont move!)
Sings? we do post signs but I have seen miscreants taking down the signs as fast as we post. We do tell them to stop taking down the signs and some do stop but some will come back after we leave and take them down again. Short of an army of police for every G.O. there is nothing more we can do.
Came across the website. One more movie that can be added. Don't know if it is available for sale or rental. It is rarely shown on TV anymore. The movie is called "For Pete's Sake" and stars Barbara Streisand and Peter Sarazin. In one scence Striesand is being chased and goes down into an IND station, hops a train and gets off at another station. However if you look closely she gets on and off at Court St.
Did they bother to change the station signs? I haven't seen this movie, so I'm curious. This trick was employed in Nighthawks; Hoyt-Schermerhorn was disguised first as 57th St., then 42nd St. At least the signs were changed.
I have been a transit patch collector for 15 years. I have the "M" patches worn by NYC Transit Employees, I would like to obtain one of the newer MTA patches. Also, I have an older "TA" style hat badge that I restored to the pre-MTA colors. I am seeking to buy a conductor's hat if only I could find where I could purchase one. I am well aware that NYC Transit does not sell these items to the public due to some people would illegally use it (ride the trains or get into yard and off-limit areas!) I am in the greater Chicago area, that's quite a distance from NYC! But anyway...can someone help me locate and direct me on how to obtain these items? Have a blessed day all....and I love this web site!
William C. Mitchell/Gary, Indiana
E mail me and I'll see what I can do.
R-46 Professional.....thanks, and check your E-Mail! :)
I believe some of the larger ballcap/urban/youth-wear stores carry not only the more popular sports teams, but many of the NYC civil service uniform patches on caps. The NYPD, Fire, Sanitation and newer MTA pathces on caps are available in one of the shops in my neighborhood.
Although, the caps are available for purchase from the general public, I am sure that they were really intended for those working for those particular agenices.
Doug aka BMTman
In addition to the GO that Pelham Bay Dave told us about for this coming weekend (uptown 2 on the 5; uptown 5 on the 2, etc.), the NYCT Site is also advertising that that Manny-B will be out-of-service, with the usual split D service and no B service.
The site also says that B and Q service resumes from 6th/57th to 21st/Queensbridge on May 24th (though some older messages on the same site still say either "late spring 1999" or "fall 1999."
Fortunately, it's a weekend of Transit and Weather Together so hopefully I'll get to ride some of these GO reroutes!
What was the original plan to the Second Avenue Subway line? Can someone tell me, cause in my plan thanks to your messages have come up with two local lines making the 2nd Avenue Subway Line 5 subway line 3 exprees two local but I want to know if there are any exsisting subway tunnels that I can use. If you want any more information on my subway plan just ask. Cause I need all the help so that I can present it to the MTA and say that all of you helped me.
Thanks
Christopher Rivera
Go here to find out
I know its kind of short notice, but if anyone is going to be in the Toronto area this coming weekend, APTA's 8th Rail Rodeo will be held in the TTC's Greenwood Yard facility. The event should be open to those who know about it. NYCTransit is the defending team, having won last year at San Diego; however, the team has changed, since this year, I'll be representing the Conductors. The Train Operator is the 5-time winner here at Transit.
I don"t know about local 113. Local 308 is boycotting the rodeo, because of the implementation of the one-man train operation. I would be very surprised with the recent strike, and manegment resentment that 113 is also not boycotting. I am propably one of biggest railfans that operates a train in Chicago,but my union brothers and sisters come first.
Bravo! I applaud your efforts. Know that here in New York, are folks that agree.
I am not a CTA employee, but I do ride the Howard-Dan Ryan Red Line once in a while, and I thought the biggest mistake the authority could ever make was to switch over to one man train operation. Conductors are still needed because I've noticed when we have visitors to the area who are not familiar with the CTA system, who will they ask? It is dangerous to ask just anybody, remember the tourist who was raped and robbed near Union Station recently...asking directions? Plus, they are the first defense against crimes on board because they see everything. You can't do all that while you've come across a restriction at Clark Junction! They will never learn up at Merchandise Mart!
I totally agree with your assessment of the Red line. It should have full-time conductors over the entire route. OPTO could be used at night without too much difficulty, IMHO.
when is the work supposed to be completed, because today at dekalb, i saw they changed the black signs that hang down to read '21/Queensbridge' instead of '57/6 Av'
laterz
blackdevl
Finish May 22nd.
The signs at DeKalb for some reason have been taken off earlier because I saw that happend before the date was mention (it is the only station that has 21 St in Brooklyn.
According to the official posters:
Normal service returns May 24, 1999 but there may be weekend changes till end of June.
I have always wanted to go around the loop through city hall. However, on Saturday, I was waiting for the 6 train to start when a MTA emplayee in an orange vest told me that I couldn't. I was under the impression that this was OK. Anyone else know different.?
Mayor Giuliani had disapprove of it because he was afraid that terrorists might come and blow his office up.
That's too bad since his office needs a little shaking up ;-)
until that kid got killed not too long ago in the Brooklyn Loop either from playing between cars or something passengers are now no longer allowed on the 6 train on the relay from the s/b to n/b via the old City Hall Station.
Signs spotted this morning on my way to work at Metrotech indicate that Brooklyn-bound M/N/R trains will be skipping the Lawrence St-Metrotech station; Manhattan-bound trains are unaffected. As this is an island platform station, I can't figure out what they may be planning. Alas, there are NO signs posted at the Lawrence St Station as to this closure, scheduled to begin 001 hours May 24 thru 501 June 7.
-Hank
If you look on the MTA website, there are supposed to be asbestos removal to be done @ the station.......
Sure enough, as of this morning, signs were posted announcing asbestos removal will be taking place at the station begining May 27.
-Hank
I still can't see how they are going to do this. Half the island platform but put plastic sheeting on the track side as well as half way across the platform?
I use this station many times during the week to reach Metro Tech (our mainframe is there). I let ya know what happens.
Do you think they are ever going to put up tile panels at Lawrence Street. It certainly could use it. Here's a question - did that station EVER have tile on the walls?
Wayne
I guess its too much for us to ask for the MTA to build the Jay Street to Lawrence Street transfer that it proposed in the East River Crossing Study while they will be shutting the place down anyway. Geez.
Oh lighten up will you! I had forgotten all about that one, so please excuse me. Of course it will cost far less to open that passageway (or even to build it) than it will to hang some prefab tile panels. Anything would be better than that blank wall BUT of course, a transfer would be very welcome as well.
Wayne
With the Metrocard I do make that transfer from the A about twice a year when I'm out Lefferts way...
You can transfer between Lawrence and Jay Sts with Metrocard??????
What I meant was transfer with one of the unlimted metrocard (Weekly/Monthly/FunPass) since the lock out time has passed on the trip on the A. A regular metrocard, there is no transfer. Sorry for the confusion.
There was an excellent article in yesterdays(5/16) NEWSDAY about the JFK AirTrain. There were two pictures. One showed the line along the Van Wyck. The other was supposed to show the terminal in Jamaica but it was flopped . Instead of showing the line making a right turn onto Atlantic Ave, it makes a left.
The interesting thing is that there will be a three storey terminal building and a hugh, covered shed connecting the new line with all of the LIRR tracks. Remember, riders from Manhattan will have to cross the entire width of Jamaica Station to get to AirTrain.
Don't worry about the design details, I have no faith in the PA and the MTA. I don't believe they will never complete the air train project to jamaica in our lifetime.
This morning In toook R33#9281 @ Pennslvania Av. It was a special rush hour 4. I was surprised to see this train @ this time of the morning but I was happy to be on a Redbird. Halfway between Franklin and Atlantic I notioed the Railfan door was unlocked. When I got off @ Fulton, I told motorman of the problem, he said there was nothing he can do about it. I guess because of the crowds on the train. When I told my dad this evening, he said that the motorman should have called somebody and take the train ou of service. What should happen here? I figure that the motorman must have climbed into the train @ Livonia and forgot to lock it
Do you mean unlocked or that the door unlatched? I operated a redbird 5 out of Flatbush av to Dyre, my trainer was by the door while I was operating and the door popped open at E Tremont ave. We checked the door before leaving the terminal and it was locked..
Unlatched. I pull it far enough without opening the door....
The Train Operator should have checked the door. If the Door just gave like most redbirds there's not much you could do but to put a Shoes Pattle on the side of the door and jam it shut. I know on the most redbirds the doors give. My son was at a Storm door of a Uptown No.2 and the storm door opened passing 59 Street. Also on a No.6 Train leaving Grand Central car 8601. But turned out the door was just unlocked that time. I think the problem is they are not takeing care of the Redbirds. The most desturbing think is when you know most of the Locks on the Redbird give and open.
Good grief! Remind me not to tug on the handle next time I'm up front on the #2 train. That's where I usually find myself when journeying up to the Bx.
Wayne
Hey Wayne if you ride the No.2 On a Saturday maybe we can meet on route.
What time does your Bird come to roost at Pennsylvania (34th Street)?
I usually come in on the 8:06AM from Babylon.
Wayne
My first trip on Saturday I leave Times Square 9:43AM going Brooklyn Bound. Ok I'm checking the No.2 Timetable to see if we can work this out one day. It looks like theres a Uptown No.2 at 34 Street at 8:15 and arrives at 241 Street at 9:05 just in time for my 9:15 out of 241 Street. Ocause we would have to plan this after this crazy GO this weekend bcause I may go to 148 Street.
OK we will leave GO's out of it and work within normal service guidelines. My 8:06am Babylon train arrives at Penn Station 8:59am barring delays. So that gives me a little time to fool around and explore before getting back to Times Square at 9:40. Times Square at 9:43 would translate into 34-Penn Station at 9:45, 14th Street at 9:48.5, Chambers at 9:54, [no Park Place], Fulton Street at 9:58 etc.; please correct me if I am wrong. I might decide to go south via "E" to Broadway-Nassau and then pick up the #2 at Fulton OR I could go to
14th via 8th Avenue "A" and then go over to 6th Avenue "L" to finish my station pictures, walking over to the #2 by 9:45.
Let me know if this fits.
Wayne
I leave Times Square at 10:02 I gave tou my time for 149 St sorry. So that give you lots of time for the E Line. Also go to the TA web site on Saturday Southbound and you can track my train. I Leave 241 Street at 9:15.
Hopefully next Saturday will run close to Schedule
Dave,
Can't do it THIS Saturday - I am getting my bridge put in so I have to be at the Dentist's for a while. I am probably going to be meeting Peg on May 29 so I'll be going counter to you. Let me check the schedule. What comes after your southbound run? Do you lay over? What's the next trip uptown? Maybe we could catch you on that.
Wayne
No not this Saturday. The train after me is the 9:24 241 St. I Leave Flatbush going North at 11:38. 1:44PM out of 241 going South. Thats on a Normal Schedule. This weekend will be anything but Normal.
That is the only thing to hang onto going round the curves at 59 Street and peering out of the Railfan window
And to think I always like to give the storm door handle a quick tug as the train starts up. Are there similar problems with the R-32s and R-38s? Or, heaven forbid, the slant R-40s?
They could do what they used to do on the BMT standards: jam a 2x6 against the storm door handle.
No excuse. He had an obligation to check the situation out. The conductor has to get out of his cab to change sides and he has a crowd to contend with just like that motorman would. If the train had an emergency brake application, he wouldn't tell Control Center that he can't leave the cab because the train is too crowded. If I knew who he is I, even though him and I are of equal rank, we would have a long talk about this!
Inability to lock the frontmost or rearmost storm door on a train
is usually grounds for taking the train out of service for safety
reasons, as is missing glass.
I wa son a train years ago and when I grabbed the door handle (as many rail fanners do), to my suprise it opened. I immediately closed the door and the T/O stopped the train and locked the door. I remember a case where the door wouldn't stay latched and the T/O isolated that car.
Rule 53: Destination And Route Signs; Heaters: Fans; Air-Conditioning;Doors and Windows; Riding in Cabs.
(c) Doors Between Cars and End Doors
Doors between cars must be kept closed whenever possible. The end door of the front and rear cars of a train must be kept closed and locked except as instructed in emergencies.
_______________________
NOTE: On 75-foot length type cars, the doors between cars, including the cab doors and end bulkhead doors, MUST BE kept CLOSED and LOCKED at all times, except as instructed in emergencies.
Although i've heard it mentioned only once on NY1 this Sunday and in crew rooms at Flatbush on the 2 and 241 st I don't hear to much else on the subject. I think Willie James(local 100 Pres.) knows if he doesn't start flapping his gums he'll never be reelected to his cushy position even by bus drivers. MTA rakes in all this money and WE the Rank and File who pound the road don't see jack. I'm willing to strike for something decent....Taylor law doesn't mean shit to me....
The big transit surplus comes from increase usage of the mta bridges and tunnels($3 per round trip mass transit surcharge) and all those secound phone lines people are getting for their computers(mta mass transit tax) not from the transit operations themeselfs. They are running deeper in the red than ever.
The MTA is also raking in a lot of $$$ from Metrocard sales and the .25% retail sales tax in the MTA region. If the economy cools, the MTA surplus will rapidly dwindle. But no one really thinks about that.
(No one thinks about the surplus dwindling). And no wonder. The city tried to be responsible, so the state cut its school aid and the commuter tax instead. It doesn't pay to be responsible in the state with the lowest credit rating in the U.S.
I'm with you on that.
those of us who pay our fares and use the system deserve better than a paralyzing strike. while I believe in your right to organize and bargain collectively, I regard transit as in the same 'essential services' category as fire, police, etc. Your lack of willingness to obey the Taylor law is no better than the behaviour of a fare-beater. Either we play by the rules or we don't.
Play by the rules? Tell that to Joe Hoffmann!
Him and his minions have been violating our contract whenever it suits them!
But fear not. There will be no strike.
The personnel with the most power in the TWU, the operating personnel have been carefully selected by management.
Ever since the 1980 strike, when we humiliated the fools on the 13th floor, they have searched for a way to blunt our most powerful weapon. The Taylor Law may out law strikes, but a determined and angry membership will take it's wrath out on an employer. Loss of pay or not.
The demographics of RTO has changed greatly since then. By design.
The folks who ran our system in 1980, were generally middle class folks. People who had relatives and friends that were middle class too. They lived in fairly good neighborhoods. If they lost their job, well then they could get another, in a different industry, for sure, but the economy was different then. So they would get a decent job. These were people with a H.S. education, but they had skills.
Today, the TA actively recruits employees with little or no job prospects. Younger men and women, who if they didn't work for transit, would be asking "Will there be fries with that?"
Now these individuals have well paying jobs. Health benifits, in a society that frequently sees fewer and fewer employers offering them. They get a pension. Now they can afford cars. They can show off to all their hommies in the hood. So these people, now need transit. It's a culture of dependency. None of them can afford to strike. Few have any kind of savings.
TA knows this. That's exactly what they wanted. They finnaly have the ability to stop a strike. It took 20 years, but they could afford to wait. That's how they have always done things, incrementaly. OPTO actually began with the first delivery of the R44. It just took a few years to get the job done.
I'd be very surprised to actually see a strike. I hear a lot of support for one in RTO. But the surface men are actually not that unhappy. From what I hear in CED, it aint that bad over there either. So it's really just the RTO guys. Shame too. The most powerful people, are also the most angry. But they are alone. Augers well for something I have been advocating for years. A seperate union for just RTO. I for one am sick and tired of the comprimises we give in for to help the cleaners or the bus drivers, while RTO gives and gives. Of course, because we never voted for Willie, or Dom, or Sonny. Those guys were always beholden to other interests.
I do support a strike. But not for money. I feel I'm paid well. No. I demand respect. No more echo chambers for crew rooms. Toilet paper at ALL times. Not just when the Superintendent felt like ordering it. A guarenteed rest break between trips. No more five mind numbing trips, just so they can save on one or two crews. These things and many more are way more important to me.
But I should stop dreaming. Because nothing will change. Our pandering publicity seeking local 100 president will take some lousy deal, and tell us that "it's the best I could get you" and we will go on. And nothing will change.
So, as I said, fear not. there will be no strike.
Excuse me now, I'm going to throw up.
You are correct, but if the Taylor Law was guaranteed to be obeyed, what is the incentive for management to bargain in good faith and grant the workers a decent raise from their surplus if there was never a chance for the rank and file to ever go out on strike? Don't forget the TA a few years ago said they were broke, the rank and file reopened the contract, gave up a raise, and a week after the TA came up with a $300 million surplus. Was the contract then reopened a second time? The TA suits cannot be trusted. They can cook the books any way they need to. But don't worry, management will prevail since they have better negotiators than Willy & Co. Willy wants $60.00 per member for a media campaign. How can he convince the public that his members deserve a decent raise when many riders make a hell of a lot less money than the transit workers as it is.
Like I said, money is the least of our problems. We are well paid. It's the working conditions and the severe lack of respect. Those are the things that matter to me.
I wan't a place of work, where management worked with the crews, and treated the men like the professionals they are. Like the way it is at NJT.
Sometimes I wonder why I came here.
rank and file members of twu local 100 had virtually no say in the matter when the contract was reopened(sounds like a new precedent) the executive board(bored) dealt with the matter and took the reigns and ran with this one I feel. Naturally once the money started rolling in did anyone see MTA offer to give us back what was rengotiatated? TA is rolling in so much money with Metrocard and I feel sorry for the poor suckers who lose their cards and think they get money back without jotting down the cards serial numbers to report a card lost/stolen.
Spending money to appeal to people for a raise isn't going to work for us since it didn't work for a few other municipal workers. For the Most part people do get from point A to Point B in a timely fashion.
I was working for the TA in 1980 and we paid for our own raise and then some with the Taylor Law penalties. The union did not pay a dime in their court ordered financial penalties, but the rank and file did. Maybe there will be a strike since the overwelming majority of present TA workers were not there in 1980, but if there is a strike, it must be on Dec. 15, when the old pact expires. New York retailers wouldn't be too happy of a strike 10 days before Christmas! What scares Willie & company the most is the loss of payroll deduction of dues checkoff in the event of a strike. In 1980, John Lawe & Co. didn't like coming around asking for dues money. Don't get me wrong: I don't want to strike, but there are many people who do.
[What scares Willie & company the most is the loss of payroll deduction of dues checkoff in the event of a strike. In 1980, John Lawe & Co. didn't like coming around asking for dues money.]
- Sorry but that don't cut any ice. Willy & co can always go to the AFL/CIO for a loan if they need cash. This is so Mngt. can't bleed the union to death. True, they have to pay it back & dues will probally go up after the strike, but that's SOP.
- The point about a significant segment of the rank & file not being able to afford a strike may have some merit. At this Depot too many of the TWU live on the OT.
- The best strike is over in a day or two ... so timing & prep. is everything, i.e. Dec 10th ... lot of media exposure.
- As a former Teamster this was covered in Union 101, i.e. basics
Mr t__:^)
Go Ahead And Strike!!
Fire Your Asses like the Air Traffic Controlers and I can become a conductor.
SCAB!!!!!!!!!!
With patience, I will explain to you the details. Which you, obviously being a non employee, don't yet have.
Before I worked here, as a Conductor, I felt as you do. After 11 years of working in, under, and on trains, all over America, I had thought I had seen it all.
Bad management, good. Poor track, excellent. Yadda, yadda.
With so many of my long time friends working at the TA as Motormen, I heard all the horror stories. So I figured I was prepared when I got here. From age 16 on, I had been listening.
I remember one day, during my High School internship. I worked at the 207th Street Overhaul Shop. There was a machinist who operated the wheel trueing machine. He was a source of knowledge and advice. He admired my youthful spirit, and idealism for the job. Why not? All I thought of 24 hours a day was R46 this and P wire that.
He told me: "Don't ever loose the love you have for the job. You're gonna meet angry and bitter people. This place does that to them. But if this is what you wanna do, then do it. And don't let any one take that from you."
Words to live by.
So as the years went by, I sat. And waited. And waited. 1986 went into 1996. And still I was on the outside. Not one to sit idly by, I went and found other jobs in the industry. They're there, but very hard to come by. My first proffesional work on trains was a year after graduating High School. I only got that because of my internship.
And all through those years I kept my eye on the goal. Sometimes it was depressing. My closest best friend, Harold, who was a Porter when I met him in '87, went on to become a Conductor, then a Motorman. With my jealousy very well hidden, I lived vicariously through him.
My other friends, Glenn, Tony, Tommy, Eddie, Carlton, they all taught me whatever I wanted to learn. I spent immeasureable hours with them.
Always as an outsider though. Sometimes, in the summer,I'd sit and watch the trains go past. And wonder when it would be me. By the time I got here. I didn't feel the same.
Now I've become jaded. I look at my once proud profession, and wonder.
I believe that you may be now experiencing what I did.
I said to Tony, and Glenn, when they bitched and moaned about TA, "you guys, should be happy to have such a great job! If I was you, I wouldn't complain!"
Ah, but it's not so simple. I see now their points. So bad, that Tony eventually quit. Admittedly an exception to the rule, but still a powerful message.
Are you ready to be on a train most of the day? When you have to go to the bathroom, are you ready to stop the train and embarass yourself over the radio asking for permission? How about when you're sick. Ready to have TA send someone to your home to see if you're lying?
Forget about needing a day off. Oh, your car broke down? Tough, you aint at work, and it's suspension time!
As a new employee, you will work late at night, far from home. On you first day back from your two days off, it will be the earliest job possible. Of course on your last day before the two days off, you were given the latest job possible. That's to give you the smallest possible "weekend".
Hate a particular line? Guarenteed if you say anything, it will become the place you are most frequently assigned to.
Respect? Forget it. Dispatchers will demand of you.
"What? you have to pee? NO get on the train. That's you to go."
Train service stupidvisors will talk to you as if you were born yesterday. After all you are only a lowly conductor.
Passengers? There's a whole post right there.
Money? you think we get paid a lot? $12.7450 per hour to start. For the first 51 weeks. The very first week is at minimum wage. Overtime is doled out only to those who curry favor. If you're not in that club, then you go hungry.
So before you deign to critizize, go down the road a mile in my cab. After doing this job for a while, you will probably agree with me. We can talk then.
If this is the carrer that you want, then go and get off your arse. Do as I did, and find any work in the bussines you can. In the years since I worked at 207th for my H.S. internship, I have remained steadily employed in this field. R40's for Sumirail, ArrowIII, for AdTranz, Air brakes for WABCO, propulsion, doors. Hell, I even built engineering models of powerplants. And through it all I waited for the damn civil service system!
I got fed up with it too. But it's the system we currently have to live with.
At one point I had even given up on it. Yes, my faith had broken, I'm ashamed to say. ( Read yesterday's post "Qualification of operating personel" for that story)
But I'm here now. And I WILL make a difference!
So don't be jealous. Get off your arse and do something about it. But don't be a scab, or a blood sucker. Do it on your own.
If we do strike, and I doubt we will. It will be for valid reasons.
Great post ... I enjoyed reading it, thanks for sharing with us !
Mr t__:^)
No one has any problem with people getting respect. Things are different in private industry. The number of sick days has been reduced, but sick days have been merged into other leave days, and you just get days. No one comes to your house.
Once you are on a train, there is no way to go to the bathroom without delaying the train. The ability to go before and after a run is a key part of the job. Do they really not let you go in the terminal? I would assume that there is a fixed layover, and a restroom in ready access nearby.
As I've said, in a unionized environment respect for the employee and pride in the job evaporate. Everything is based on rules and contracts. The union encourages the employee to do as little work as they can get away with. Management doesn't do anyone any favors which are not in the rules. Low management pay (relative to the private sector) means you get managers with zero people skills -- a civil service mentality means power hungry nuts can't be replaced. Everyone is bitter and trying the screw everyone else all the time. No strike will settle this. Its just a way to screw the workers for asshole attitudes within the organization.
It's worse at the post office. Much, much worse.
It's not that they won't let you go. No they could never get away with that. The problem is scheules written with so little time between runs. That's called productivity. If a work program gives you 15 minutes (many do), subtract the two minutes you're required to be on the train before it leaves,and the four minutes you were late, and the three minutes it takes to get from the train to the bathroom, and the three minutes that it takes to get back....
Since no one wants to be embarrased by tellng a dipatcher in a crowded room, " I need to use the bathroom, would you hold that train, or jump another crew ahead?" People just suffer. And since this is the nature of the job, consequently we need to take more sick days than the average employee, in a regular type job.
When you get diaharrea, you take kaopectate, and go to work. Figuring you'll just go when the need arrises. We can't do that. So we take sick days. Management could care less. So we get disciplined for being sick. How do you prove the runs? Bring in a stool sample?
Now some cold heart,will say: "You knew that's how the job was when you took it!" Does that make it right?
Most of us have learned not to eat large meals, and to drink as little as possible. Real healthy come summer. Ever wonder why there's a coffee cup stuck in the piping of the upper corner of the cabs?
What is embarrassing about telling a dispatcher in a crowded room that I have to go. In my worst case scenario I have applied handrakes during the rush hour at the exit station of a river tube to "satisfy the crave". What is embarrassing is that management ordered me to write a G2 (letter) on a conductor for that reason. When Joe Shmoe, the car desk superintendant or anyone working at anywhere has to go they just go. OSHA regulations mandate time relief for conditions over 90 degrees on a per hour basis ut our "superiors" in command center believe they are invincible giving orders from their air-condition control center with a john steps away equipped with cushioned seats and real toilet paper, not the 100 grit sand paper I have seen at some terminals. By the way for our new contract we will receive more coffee cups. At least on the railroads all cars INCLUDING the locomotives have a toilet.
Fixed time in between runs is not guaranteed. Neither is your lunch period. If you arrive late at a terminal, you will still leave on you next trip as per your schedule.
For bus drivers many layovers are in the middle of no where, or the local bar/deli/what-ever gives the driver a hard time because he just wants to take a pee (doesn't want to buy anything).
Mr t__:^)
Doesn't the TA pay some local business at the end of a bus run to provide the drivers with water and rest rooms? If not, why not?
Like I said, TA workers are hardly underpaid. But no one does anything for you that isn't in the contract. That's the union/management dynamic.
I think TA employees are overestimating whether or not Pataki will care about a strike. Sure, it would hurt Reuter and other TA managers who care about transit. But Republicans don't ride the subways, and don't care about those who do. They'd love it. They'd love the riders, who earn less and get less respect than TA workers, to feel that they've been slapped in the face. It would advance their privitazation agenda, and they could make Reuter the fall guy.
Strikes work against private businesses where wages are low and profits are high. But the TA loses money. If the TA lays off non-striking personnel, it will actually be in a better position financially if service comes to a halt. The state could use that as an excuse to cut its aid the TA even further, and divert it to the LIRR or upstate.
If I were a TA worker, and felt I was being bargained with unfairly, what would I do?
Selectively strike the Midtown bus routes, and have the subways bypass Penn Station, Jamaica Station, Flatbush Terminal and Grand Central. If the TBTA is in on it, slow down collection of the tolls. Have off duty transit workers drive, very slowly, across the free bridges in the AM and PM rush -- back up NJ too. Then drive around Manhattan in the middle of the day in large numbers -- nothing illegal about that, right. Tie up Grand Central and Penn with marches, or TWU workers standing in the ticket lines and they just asking questions. Meanwhile, announce that TA workers are too blind with anger to see if fares are being collected. If anyone gets fines, the union pays the fine. If anyone gets fired, the union pays their wage, and continues the action until they are reinstated.
In other words, instead of making subway and bus riders worse off, make drivers, the TA budget, and the commuter railroads worse off. Make the Republicans worse off. That could work. And most TA workers would still get a paycheck, and most TA customers would not be hurt.
This is a tricky game, because with fewer workers involved they might be subject to individual retailiation. The union would really have to stick together for it to work. But it is more likely to work than screwing your own customers.
I'll make two additional brief points:
1. Pataki seems hell bent on making Rudy Giuliani look bad. A NYC strike, that Rudy doesn't have much ability to effect, will be embarrassing to him just the same.
2. Pataki's man at the MTA is the #1 man, Virgial Conway, so if he wants to make Rudy look bad & make Larry Reuter the scape goat, it'll happen.
Meanwhile the TWU isn't part of the equation, it's just politics, so if a strike happens blane it on George not Willy. That's a sad state of affairs and has nothing to do with the efficienty of the system or the productivity of the workers.
Rudy gave the TWU at the "privates" less then the MTA got last time, so they'll be wanting even more then the MTA folks, therefore Rudy may get two strikes instead of one.
Mr t__:^)
I like your ideas.
But believe me. We aren't considering a strike a first use weapon. There are already protests underway. Tomorrow at 130 Livingston Street, as a matter of fact. There are many ways to ratchet up the pressure slowly. A strike is the last ditch alternative, for when all else has failed.
But it's true that Gov. Pataki is no friend to the TWU. So I wouldn't be surprised to see George allowing it to happen just to screw Rudy. That megalomaniac, sure nows how to burn bridges and make enemies. His short elected carrer is finished. Senator? I doubt it.
Just remember ALL CITY WORKERS even the uniformed branches swallowed a two year ZERO pay increase. I know I voted NO for that one.
I guess suburban commuters won't be able to find their way to nearby stations, huh? What about reverse commuters, large in numbers now. As for slowing down traffic, who could tell the difference? It's a little late in the 20th century for this 'workers of the world unite' nonsense, isn't it?
(A little late for this workers of the world stuff).
Tell that to my union. They seem to have decided that what we want is a lot of rallies and letting people go on welfare without working. What we actually want is a cut in the dues.
The First Vice President and a member for over 50 year, Arthur Lonto, with
present a slide show of North American electric rail transportation of the
years most of us missed. Arthur took a trip across America in 1951 (48 years
ago!!). His slide will show what Chicago, Milwalkee, Minneapolis/St Paul,
Portland, Vancouver, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Salt Lake City, Pittsburgh and
Cleveland. Some of these cities lost their streetcars, but are now in the
process to correct their mistake and looking at rail transit again.
The second part of the show would be New York City Subway during the 1950's and
60's. Here he shows how much has changed, some for the better and some are not.
It's a show that people on this newsgroup should see.
The monthly meetings of the New York Division are held on the third Friday of
each month. The next monthy meeting is 18 Jun 99. Doors open at 6:15 with
sales table available for the members. Meeting starts at 7:15. Admission is
$5.00 for non-members. Member's admmission is free.
Location is the College of Insurance Building in lower Manhattan. Address is
101 Murray Street, between Greenwich and West Street. Nearby subway stations
are the Chambers Street and the PATH World Trade Center. Street parking is
available after 7:00 PM.
Membership application are available at the door. Included in the membership:
a. Monthly publication "The Bulletin", which covers past, present and the
future of New York area rail transportation and the latest national coverage of
rail news as submitted by the members.
b. Advance trip notices
c. Free admission to the meetings.
The web site for the NY Division ERA is located at
www.members.aol.com/rob110178/era.
For more information and a membership application enclose a large self
addressed stamped envelope and mail to:
New York Division
Electric Railroad Association
PO Box 3001
New York, NY 10008-3001
a public service announcement ....
From Stafford VA....
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
I was standing on the Myrtle Ave station waiting for the M to arrive from Marcy to take me to Metropolitan Ave, when a three car train of BMT Standards (2390,91,92) comes rocking in, freshly painted in Redbird colors.
Is that a Dream or a Nightmare?
I had a dream car 9706 was a transvers cab and it was sitting at Main Street and they were doing OPTO on the Flushing Express. That was a nightmare.
I had a dream once involving the Flushing line. It ran at ground level at Shea Stadium, and the R-36s had pantographs as well as diesel horns which were blasting away at what seemed to be every intersection. The B flat major chords on the horns sounded nice, though.
Neither: a flashback!
Red BMT standards would be an improvement over that brown color they wore for so long.
Sounds more like an LSD flashback, but, if you weren't dreaming--did it take passengers?
I didn't know 2390-2392 (the museum standards) were even operational. If you're not fantasizing, why in the world would the TA paint them red, a color they never bore historically?
Put another way, don't eat any mushrooms that don't come out of a can.
I've had weird dreams like that all the time..How about a section of track with all sorts of different trains running on it? Such as a BMT D followed by a NJT/MN Port Jervis Line train followed by an Amtrak long distance train followed by a Flushing train in the Worlds Fair paint scheme??? All like on 3 second (at least in dream time...) headways?????
Trains on the brain......
I've had vivid transit dreams from time to time, sometimes based on my researches (like wandering around Coney Island c.1910) or experience, sometimes all new material.
A dream I had when I was in my 20's involved standing on Prospect Park station watching many of the different types of equipment that ran on the line come and go--SIRT cars, Standards, Lo-Vs BUs ...
I particularly remember that dream because it was the first in my life which showed I do sometimes dream in color.
After spending the better part of two evenings watching "Atomic Train", I can honestly say I came away from it with six (6) very important lessons learned. They are:
1) Never, never transport nuclear weapons by train. It will always lead to disaster. (This was already proven in the Nicole Kidman movie "The Peacemaker")
2) Despite all the engineering that makes it impossible to do so, on TV it's really easy for a train to lose its' brakes. (See the movies "Runaway" and "Runaway train")
3) The NTSB can do little to prevent train wrecks. (See AMTRAK Timetable)
4) NEST and FEMA would be inept in handling a potential Nuclear Disaster. (See the movie "Special bulletin")
5) The President of the United States would provide no leadership and little comfort in a nuclear disaster. (see the nightly news)
6a) The quality of any 'Made for TV Movie' is inversely proportional to how heavily it is hyped.
6b) All 'Made for TV movies on NBS - really suck. Actually we all should have watched "Joan of Arc" & burned this movie at the stake.
Also shows what can happen disobaying orders from there control Center when the Engeneer on the second train desided to play hero and crashes into the train just as it was going to stop.
for what its worth the NMRA Bulletin had some very interesting data on modeling nuclear fuel rod cars. imagine a super duty flat car with a cylinder welded to the deck at as 45 degree angle. the cylinder is a stainless stel rigf with immense cooling fins and of course lined with lead. oh, as to safety, considering that ALL nuclear rreactors are extremely dangerous three mile chernobyl...shipping this junk by train is still safer than any other method--highway safety anyone?
Steve I agree with you on all counts.
BTW, do most of you guys know about the "mini-scandal" involving "Atomic Train"?
Apparently -- and as depicted in the original hype from last month -- the plotline was that a train carrying NUCLEAR WASTE was out of control and headed for collision with the city of Denver.
But, what I heard was that a last minute plot change was ordered from NBC's parent the nuclear-weapons producer, General Electric. They wanted all dialogue referring to the train carrying nuclear waste to be replaced with 'toxic waste' so as not to milaign GE's 'bread n' butter'. As well, they wanted to add an 'outside' threat by adding a Russian-made atomic weapon on the train (talk about conincidences!)
I wasn't looking for it, but some people claimed you could tell where some of the actors lines referring to 'nuclear waste' was dubbed over into 'toxic waste'.
Just thought I'd drop this off.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
"As well, they wanted to add an 'outside' threat by adding a Russian-made atomic weapon on the train (talk about coincidences!)"
But as one of the characters points out in the movie, American nuclear weapons have multiple safeguards and simply won't go off unless somebody WANTS them to go off. (If I recall, H-bombs being transported by airplane have fallen out of the plane and not detonated!) I'm pretty sure that Soviet nukes had safeguards too, so the scenario of the movie is still not likely, but with an American-made bomb, the movie plot would have been ludicrous (as if the total brake failure wasn't ludicrous as it is!)
Also, on the nuclear-waste thing, such waste is carried in containers that have been thoroughly tested (hit by trains, set on fire, etc., etc.), not in common railway boxcars! Why is it somehow a whitewash or conspiracy that ANY industry being grossly misdepicted would object to the depiction?! It's just that GE can do something about it, while most professions and industries that are unfairly depicted in popular fiction can't, and have to "grin and bear it." The fact that we still haven't figured out a safe way to **dispose** of nuclear waste [or to get states and towns to accept a waste dump in their territory (^: ] doesn't mean that it's OK to grossly exaggerate the risks of **transporting** the stuff.
Sorry, but as an attorney, I have an irresistible impulse to jump in and play the "devil's advocate." (^:
It seems to me that you can get an almost total brake failure by closing the angle cocks between the locomotive(s) and the train after the brakes have released. Of course the only people capable of doing so would be people with access to the yard where the train started or the crew on the locomotive. With a heavy unbraked load behind them the locomotives would lose adhesion and slide. On the other hand, dynamic braking (if available) would still work if the wheels were gotten rolling again.
Hollywood would be a great site for a train wreck. (I wonder if it is possible to spill a load of common sense?)
In the movie they say they are going up a grade on a mountain.
Why can't they just shut the engine down? That would slow them.
1. The roof walk on the box car carrying the hazardous material, those things have been gone for more than 20 years.
2. The size of the roof walk (obviously cobbled up by a movie carpenter who had never seen a real roof walk in his life).
3. The monster hand rails down the side of the box car so good old Rob could drag himself over to the box car door.
4. The manner in which the box car was packed. NO bracing, just a bunch of loose boxes.
5. The idea that everything could be fixed if only they could join those parted brake hoses.
6. Rob's effort to "override the slave unit and set the hydraulic brakes" (or something like that). Just what electronic unit was he beating on with that crow bar anyhow????
7. Just why did the helper continue to chase the train after he broke the knuckle on the coupler?
8. Why didn't the crew in the caboose pull the pin and set the hand brakes?
9. The idea that you have to hit the coupler "just right" in order for it to couple.
10. Why they didn't derail the locomotive while it was down to a crawl at the top of the hill.
Here is something I picked up on on how to stop a "RUNAWAY":
A short to ground in the control switch will cause a faulty ground in the low volt control lines (that will not trip the ground fault relay, which is only for high voltage electrical fault protection), and can hold a magnet valve on the governor while also holding a relay supplying generator field voltage.
Pulling the emergency fuel cutoff will eventually shut down the prime mover, but it's not instantaneous since there's quite a bit a fuel in the plumbing, filters, governor, and fuel rack. It may take several minutes, depending upon how hard the engine is working, before it dies. Likewise, for shutting off the fuel pumps.
Shutting off the control voltage switch may help, but since this is the likely source of the problem, may not. Throwing the isolation switch to "off line" also may or may not take care of it, depending on where the short occured.
Pulling the generator field switch is, however, a sure way of cutting off the power output instantly and safely. Its right in reach of the engineer, and is easy as turning off a light.
Failing this, the fastest way to shut down the prime mover is to pull out the throttle handle partway, and shove it forward past idle.
Regarding "throwing it in reverse", if the throttle is, indeed, physically stuck in anything but idle, mechanical linkage between the reverse handle and the throttle handle prevent moving the reverser. It's conceivable to open the high voltage cabinet and manually trip the electromagnetic valves which control the reverser, but personally I wouldn't want to be in the cabinet with that arc created by doing so. If the throttle handle is free to move, the reverser may be called upon to attempt stopping the train, but it is frowned
upon. To quote the train handling manual used by most railroads:
If not practicable to stop with the hand brake, diesel locomotive may be stopped by "reversing the motors". CAUTION: THIS MUST BE USED ONLY AS A LAST RESORT. The retarding force will be severe when power is applied in reverse on a moving locomotive; crews must anticipate this force and protect themselves from injury. This procedure could also result in replacement of all traction motors and switch gear. To "reverse the motors: Place the throttle lever in "idle" position.
Place reverse lever in position opposite to direction of movement.
Move throttle lever to Run 1, or lowest power position.
Locomotive must be secured with hand brakes immediately after movement is stopped, blocking the wheels if necessary.
I think most of what I've said here is totally unknown, even to railfans, and is certainly outside the realm of movie producers.
Now, if you've got a steam engine and the throttle gets stuck open....
I apologize for the caps but.....
WHY DIDN'T THEY UNCOUPLE THE CAR CONTAINING THE BOMB?????!!!!!!!
It takes no trainknowledge to figure that if you don't want the bomb tangled in a wreck, uncouple the darn thing!
p.s.-a bit off topic, but for any philly natives, who thinks the president from "atomic train" looks like marty weinberg?
When I saw the previews I was the same things you all saw. They were talking about the train with atomic waste. I thought, so, its in containers.
The train was out of control going up hill. That didnt look quite right.
If they were going to derail it why do it near the city
Your technical information about train power control is interesting.
But it was a TV movie in May why should they start with good movies now.
First it was Noahs Ark then Joan of Ark who is next Joan van Ark of maybe luke ark welder.
I am not sorry that I missed it Thanks for the interesting comments though.
The President in the ''Atomic Train'' is the same guy who does the car commericals for either Ford or a foreign car company.
He also starred in a movie on tnt or tbs about FDR cause he looks like him a little bit.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I believe his name is Ed Herrmann and I think he sells Dodge Caravan minivans on TV.
Yes. If only they had transported the atomic waste in Dodge Caravans, none of this tragedy would have happened (I mean the TV movie, not the explosion)
This board may be about subways, but I think Dodge Caravans are great vehicles Reliable, you just can't kill 'em
I might have been better off going out and driving my Caravan instead of spending two evenings watching that movie.
How about naming it Dodge Triplex? Or Dodge D-car? Maybe Dodge AB? Of course, only New York subway buffs would know what those names meant.
Atomic Train wasn't shown in Denver because of what happened at Columbine High. We were treated to John Elway/Denver Bronco highlights on the second evening of its showing.
To each his own. My experience with my Plymouth (Un)Reliant - remember, the Voyager/Caravan are on a stretched version of the same chassis - was enough to convince me that Ford has a better idea (that plus owning a bunch of Fords that have gone 200,000+ miles with minimal maintenance). I now drive a '96 Windstar LX - 100% bulletproof!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My Jeep is now up to 361,000+ miles. It's like a Triplex; it keeps going and going and going.....
I still remember those "Ford has a better idea" commercials, some of which are now 30 years old.
[My Jeep is now up to 361,000+ miles. It's like a Triplex; it keeps going and going and going.....]
You update that analogy, and compare your Jeep to an R32 or R38 ...
How about my 1969 Chrysler 300 -- it's a boat of a car, but it is the closest thing to a BMT Standard on four wheels! (almost as BIG too!!)
Doug aka BMTman
How's the body holding up? The thing I remember most about cars back east is that they were prone to rust because of the higher humidity and road salt used during the winter. You don't see nearly as much body rot on cars in Colorado, mainly because it's drier. There are cars from the 60s out here which look brand new. OK, some are probably restored, but I'll bet most still have their original finish. Busted windshields are another story. My Jeep doesn't have any body rot after 11 years, but it's on its fifth windshield, which is already cracked. They dump enough gravel out here during the winter months to fill up the beach at Coney Island. And then they wonder about the infamous brown cloud. DUH!!
Steve, actually, I got my 'land yacht' from a young guy who had purchased it from an old timer (sorry if my term is not PC) who garaged the car for 28 of the car's 30 years, so the paint job is in GREAT shape as is the power train, vinyl roof and the interior. The mileage was 86,000 (original) when I bought it last summer.
The only drawback is that it has some body damage on the rear. But thanks to the World Wide Web, I have been fortunate enough to find most of the body parts (from down south and your neck of the woods) to do a complete resto by next summer, god willing.
Anyhow, although it is off topic I'll probably give you guys an update on my '69 300 project as it progresses (along with any resto work I'm able to do on AB Standard, Redbirds and the like at Coney yards) ;-).
Later, Doug aka BMTman
To Karl B, you hit it right on the nail. Even as i type this message to you from work i just saw him on TV in the Dodge commericals.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
He has portrayed FDR in the movies but twenty years ago he portrayed Lou Gehrig in a TV movie, and he was really, really good.
Was there really a TV movie about Lou Gehrig? I would have figured Pride of the Yankees was good enough. Heck, even Babe Ruth was in it.
The TV movie in question was "A Love Affair: The Eleanor and Lou Gehrig Story". It was made about 1978 and was a remake of "Pride of the Yankees". The TV movie starred Edward Herrmann, Blythe Danner, Jane Wyatt and Patricia Neal.
I thought Gary Cooper and Teresa Wright did a nice job in the original.
John Bredin indicated that he plays "devil's advocate" on the nuclear stuff. Maybe the nuclear waste can be transported to Iraq and Kosovo because these dictators there don't care who gets killed. However, this off the subject of transit and all lawyers play "devil's adovocate" to win a case.
How does a derailer work and what is it. Why is it used?
There are various different types of derailers (or simply derails as I am accustomed to hearing them called), but they all serve the same basic purpose: to derail a train. Why would anyone want to do that, you ask? Well, when the alternative is to have a train enter another section of track and potentially collide with another train. Physically, the most common type of derail is a device that is positioned on top of one of the running rails that will lift and guide the wheels of the train over the rail, causing it to derail. It may be simply clamped to the rail, or it may be operated by a mechanical device similar to the devices used to change the position of a turnout. On a railroad, they are normally used on occupied sidings to protect mainline traffic from cars whose brakes might have failed, or in the yard as added protection against improper movement. Simple (clamped) derails may also be used to protect a work crew from a train that has ignored a red signal. In Europe, a device called a catchpoint is used at some locations instead; it is essentially a single point turnout with no frog. It serves the same purpose, but has not received significant use in this country because of the cost of repair. Derails with mechanical connections are also often connected to the signal system. In the subway they are used much the same way; additionally, mechanically-connected derails are used at some locations to prevent a train from entering an opposing line in the event of an improperly positioned turnout. They are also used (both on railroads and on the elevated portion of the subway) to protect a train from entering an open drawbridge.
I hope that answers your question.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Great explanation Mouse, too add you can see one of the very few "mainline" derails in the subway at Whithall Street (South Ferry) on the N/R line. This is a two platform, three track station. The south side (Brooklyn bound) center track has a derail on it. This is the start of a down grade into the Montague Street Tunnel and a place you don't want a parked train moving into the normal tracks.
Take a ride on the LIRR and you will see rusted derails on many frieght sideings, even if the connection to the mainline has been broken they more often then not leave the derail.
Yeah, Mouse, well said.
I used to hate derails that were mechanicaly connected to the switch throw. It meant that only Schwartzenneger could throw the damn things. There's one of them at the entrance to Maspeth yard.
I saw ones that were part of interlockings. it was a switch point, but without a track leading from it. A good example was on th Montauk cutoff secondary. There is a drwbridge called "Cabin M". The split derail protects it.
I've seen those 'point' derails all along the NE Corridor. There's one at Trenton...
-Hank
This could be read as a silly question. Derailers are used ot derail trains? In certain cases it may be important to derail a train then let it run loose with no brakes or personnel aboard on the mainline. There are two types of derails, Hayes and single point derailers. Hayes derails consist of a cast iron piece that climbs on top of the rail and a single point consists of a single switch going to nowhere.
I think there are single points derailers in New Haven on MNCRR.
There are many switches that lead to siding tracks and the siding tracks just end with no bumper. I think this is what your talking about.
I think I may have seen a single point derailer on the New Haven mainline, now that you mention it.
As for sidings without bumpers, you don't suppose that's what happened to those R-142s at Bombardier, do you?
I found that a Lionel ZW transformer is a great derailer for my American Flyer trains. If I peg it with a train running down a straightaway, that train will be blown off the track when it reaches a curve every time. (smirk)
I found that a Lionel ZW transformer is a great derailer for my American Flyer trains. If I peg it with a train running down a straightaway, that train will be blown off the track when it reaches a curve every time. (smirk)
For that matter, so are cats, dogs, and grandchildren :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're right. Luckily, the latter three don't pose a problem for me.
Have you ever tried a prewar Lionel Z on that American Flyer? It would probably put it right through the wall!
No, but that ZW has plenty of juice. Put it this way: with a Gilbert 19B transformer, most of my passenger trains run like R-68s. With the ZW, they turn into R-10s. Now, if I could implant a microchip with recorded R-1/9 sounds...
The editor of the Quarterly magazine published by that collectors organization, of which I think you are member, has the largest AF layout that I have ever seen. It is all powered by ZW's. There must be at least 12 of them on line. He has always held that AF made the best trains and the big L made the best transformers. Unfortunately he is not operating any rapid transit types.
I believe the best derailer is the live third rail. It will derail any living being from touching it and living to tell about it.
You can touch the third rail and not kill yourself. But I wouldn't tough the thrid rail and the running rail at the same time! You have to be grounded first >G< for the big bang.
And, remember this old electrical nemonic: AC holds you, DC throws you. It's true - been there, done that. (Fortunately, I'm still around to talk about it.)
C. James Rivera Feb.15.1999
Second Avenue Subway Plan
Welcome to my Second Avenue Line Plan in this plan I will describe the Stations, which are holding the lines and the road plan, which describes the roads in which the lines are under. We are beginning with the road plan.
There are going to be 5 subway lines to sever the Second Avenue Subway Line and they are the 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 lines. We are going to begin with the 8 line. The 8 line begins at Gun Hill Road on Webster Avenue. It will follow the original Third Avenue Elevated Route to 149 Street where instead of staying straight under and going under Willis Avenue it will turn right and continue under Third Avenue and go under the Harlem River. It will make it first stop in Manhattan under east 125 Street where it will meet the other Local line which is the 14 line which we will talk about later. It will make Local stops all through Manhattan. It will proceed along the Second Avenue where it makes a sharp curve on to 7th Street and heads west where it makes another sharp curve onto Avenue C. When it is on Avenue C it will proceed South under the East River right under Adams Street in Brooklyn. It will make a curve later on, onto Bergen Street. It will proceed along Bergen Street until it's terminal on Utica Avenue and Bergen Street.
The Second Line is the 10 Line. It is one of the 3 expresses on the Second Subway Line. It will begin on 233 Street right under Baychester Avenue. As soon as you leave the station it will then a light right curve onto Schieffelin Avenue then it makes another curve onto Eastchester Road. Later on, on Eastchester Road it makes another right curve onto East Tremont Avenue it will proceed along East Tremont Avenue until it makes a left turn onto Metropolitan Avenue. It proceeds along Metropolitan Avenue until it meets with White Plains Road it will then turn south onto White Plains Road. It will go under White Plains Road until it makes a right curve onto Lafayette Avenue. It will go under Lafayette Avenue until it reaches Southern Boulevard where it will turn South right under the 6 line. It will proceed under Southern Boulevard until it reaches East 149th Street it will go west along East 149th Street where it will make a left curve onto St. Ann's Avenue. It will go along St. Ann's Avenue when it will make another right curve onto east 133 Street. It will proceed along E. 133 Street for 6 blocks where it will meet up with the 8 line and enter Manhattan. When it enter Manhattan it will stop on the 6 track East 125 Street Station. After the East 125 Street Station it will begin the fastest journey in the whole MTA. It will skip nine stops. From East 125 Street to East 42 Street going at 70 miles per hour through the tunnels getting from 125 Street to 42 Street in 15 minutes the fastest trip through Manhattan in History. It will then go from East 42 Street to East Broadway in Manhattan skipping another nine stops. In then enters Brooklyn, It makes it's first stop in Brooklyn at Tillary Street then goes express to it next stop Flatbush Avenue then to it's next stop at Utica Avenue. After Utica Avenue it turns on to Utica Avenue and continues south. When it merges with Flatbush Avenue and comes out of the tunnel and goes to the side of the Flatbush Avenue. Then it goes along it's own bridge and terminate at Rockaway Point Boulevard. The total amount of stops is 29 from 233 Street to Rockaway Point Boulevard.
The Second Express is the 12 line. It runs from the Bay Plaza Shopping Center to the outskirts of the J.F.K Airport where you can be able to transfer to the Monorail. Which will bring you further in to the airport. Your trip will take 35 minutes because there is only 27 Stations. The trip is simple it will go along the Bruckner Expressway until White Plains Road where it will merge with the 10 line. It will make all of the stops with the 10 in the Bronx. When it reaches Manhattan it will make all of the express stops and when it enters Brooklyn it will make all of the express stops as well. After it goes through Utica Avenue it goes under Began Street then turns North onto Jamaica Avenue. Then makes a turn South onto Force Tube Avenue, which later becomes North/ South Conduit Avenue. Then it enters J.F.K Airport and becomes elevated and joins up with the Monorail where you can get a free transfer.
The next line is the second local it is the 14 line. It will begin its trip at East 125 Street Manhattan at the center of the six tracks East 125 Street Station. It will merge with the 8 lines tracks and become Local. It will go along the route until it passes the East Broadway Station instead of going into Brooklyn. It will go under East Broadway and then make a left curve onto Water Street. It will then go under New York Bay into St.George ferry Terminal a five-mile trip in 5 minutes. After that it will come up and merge with the Staten Island Railroad and continue to Tottenville, which has been renamed to Main Street. There will also be two other services, which are the Staten Island Shuttle, which only serves Staten Island and the Manhattan Local, Staten Island Express that will only run during rush hours.
The Last Line is the last of the 3 expresses it is the 16 Line. It will go from Fordham Road under Southern Boulevard to Coney Island, Surf Avenue. It will travel along Southern Boulevard until it reaches East Tremont Avenue where it will make a tight right curve onto East Tremont Avenue then another curve onto Crotona Avenue which changes it's name later on to Prospect Avenue it will proceed South. At the corner of Prospect Avenue and East 149 Street where it will meet up with the 10 and 12 lines and enters Manhattan. It go along the along the normal route until Tillary street. After the Tillary Street it will become a Local going down Adams Street turning on to Atlantic Avenue then turning onto 7th Avenue the turns onto Cropsey Avenue them going to Coney Island- Surf Avenue it's final stop. This trip will take about 35 minutes since there are only 32 stops along the line.
Now I will discuss Some Important Stations and their designs.
Along the eight line, which is the Local line that goes along the Third Avenue Elevated route begins at Gun Hill Road. Gun Hill Road is a two-track station with a full mezzanine. The will be two station entrances, one at Gun Hill Road and Webster Avenue where there is a transfer to the Metro North-Harlem line. The other entrance is at Gun Hill Road and White Plains Road. Where there is a transfer to the 2 and 5 lines. The Second Terminal is at Utica Avenue that is a four track station the 8 line takes the outer edge because after the station the train makes loop to back the other way. There is a full mezzanine and there are 3 entrances: one is on Utica Avenue and Bergen Street the other is on Utica Avenue and Dean Street and the last entrance is at Atlantic Avenue.
The next line is the 10. Its two terminals are at E. 233 Street and Rockaway Point Boulevard. At E. 233 Street is one island 2 Track Platform with a full Mezzanine, and 1 token booth. There will be an exit at E.233 Street and Baychester Avenue so that there is a connection to the buses that go to Co-Op City. At Rockaway Point Boulevard, it is a 2 platform, 2-track terminal. Since the terminal is elevated the waiting area is at the bottom and at the top there is a covering to keep people safe from the Rain and Snow, plus at the bottom that is a heater to heat the station.
The 12 is longest and one of the most important since its 2 terminal are at some of the most important areas in the city. The first terminal is at Co-Op City inside the Bay Plaza Mall. At the terminal there is a four track terminal for a constant amount of Service so that train come in and out very quickly. There are underground walkways, which are heated that go to the separate parts of the Mall. There is a full Mezzanine with 2 token booths and an overpass to go over the tracks. At the other terminal which is in the outskirts of J.F.K terminal. The train becomes elevated and ends at a one-island platform with 2 tracks. There is a transfer to the future Monorail, which take a person further into to the Airport.
The next line is the 14. The 14's terminals are East 125 Street and Tottenville. At 125 there will be a six track terminal. With the 14 taking the middle of the six tracks. Instead of having to go up and around to get to another platform there will be an a overpass for people to walk over the train instead of having to go up to the top and coming down. At Tottenville, there is a four track terminal. The middle two tracks are for the rush hour expresses in to Manhattan. The outer tracks are for the Local and the Inner Staten Island Shuttle. Since the station is outside. There will be a waiting area and covers just incase of rain or snow.
The Last line the 16 and its two terminals are at Fordham Road near the Botanical Gardens, and the Bronx Zoo. The Second terminal is at Coney Island- Surf Avenue, which is near Coney Island. At Fordham Terminal there is only one entrance and that is right at the corner of Southern Boulevard and Fordham Road. There are 2 special entrances and one is in the Bronx Zoo where there is abandon entrance we will rebuild it and make it an entrance into the Zoo. The next special entrance is in the Botanical Gardens. We will create a new entrance and so there will be a way for people to get into these areas without having to cause problems. The other terminal at Coney Island has a connection to Astroland and the Aquarium. The entrance will at Street Level right next to the entrance to the B, D, F, and the B line. There will be transfers to those lines for free.
There are other important stations. The station in Manhattan at 42 Street- United Nations is a four-track platform station. The station has 3 token booths a transfer to the 4, 5, 6, 7, and S lines, the station also holds a connection to the Metro North trains. The station will have overpasses for easy access.
The station in Brooklyn at Tillary Street is an important station because it is the center of Downtown Brooklyn. The station will have two token booths. There will be two entrances one at Tillary Street and one at Jay Street, a transfer to the A.C lines.
The important stations in the Bronx are at 149 Street- The Hub and Metropolitan Avenue. The station at 149 Street in the center of the Hub that is in most populated areas in the Bronx, the station will have 2 token booths a transfer to the 2, and 5 lines. There will a waiting area (Heated) and a timer to show when the next train will be coming and be at the station also this timer will be installed in all of the stations along the Second Avenue Line. At Metropolitan Avenue there will be exits at Westchester Avenue and Metropolitan Avenue and at the corner of Unionport Avenue and Metropolitan Avenue. There will be two token booths and there will be a transfer to the 6 line. There will be a full mezzanine.
This last Major station will have a great effect on the Staten Island economy. At the St. George Terminal Station. There will be 6 tracks, the Center two tracks are made for the Rush Hour Service into Manhattan and back into Staten Island, the outside tracks contain the local service into Manhattan and into Staten Island. The other 2 tracks that are in the West Side of the Local tracks they will hold the train that serve the Inner Staten Island Shuttle Service. With this the Staten Island Ferry will shut down and there will be a line that take people from Staten Island to Manhattan in less then 5 minutes or vice versa. This will lighten the congestion on the B.Q.E
With all of these line and designs at major station this line will be the future for all Subway Lines around the world. New York City will have faster service to the Airport to Staten Island and more. This Subway Line will cost around 8 billion dollars but this line will pay for itself. This line will make going through New York City a little easier.
ok, who are you? im sure any of this is going to happen ever! where could you have possibly gotten this plan from, it makes absolutly NO sense.
Give the kid a break. He's 13. He wrote it up himself.
-Dave
Actually Chris isn't that far off the mark. I have a copy of the BOT proposals for Second Avenue service from 1947. Here are the ones pertinent to this discussion;
1) Pelham Bay-Hudson Term via 2 Av,63St and 6 Av
2) Pelham Bay to 95 St/4 Av via 2 Av,Manny B and 4 Av
3) Pelham Bay to Coney Is via 2 Av,Nassau,Tunnel & West End
4) Pelham Bay to Grand St via 2 Av
5) 149 St/3 Av to Coney Is via 2 Av,Nassau,Tunnel,Brighton
6) 149 St/3 Av to Coney Is via 2 Av,Manny B and Sea Beach
Larry,RedbirdR33
Re: Bronx portion of 1947 BOT plans.
1. So the Pelham Bay line would have converted to B division standards? Where exactly would the connection have been made to the new 2nd Avenue line?
2. Was the line to 149th Street and 3rd Avenue an underground stub-end that required a transfer to the Third Ave. el? I can't imagine that the Third Avenue line could have handled B division cars.
Thanks.
Paul
BOT back in '47 was made up mostly of people involved with the IND system before the city's takeover of the IRT and BMT, and they still had some of Mayor Hylan's goals in mind -- assimilate as much of the old BMT lines into the IND system as possible, and crush the IRT down to just the Manhattan trunk lines plus the Broadway and Woodlawn lines in the Bronx.
Even the Dyre Av. line was originally assigned B division without a B connector within five miles and with the E. 180th St. station about 60 feet away.
The recent Second Ave. plan that would use part of the Amtrak ROW in the Bronx for a new Second Ave. line makes more sense than switching Pellham over to B division, which was still the MTA's plan in the aborted 1970s project.
Actually, the MTA's brochure for the Manhattan East Side Alternatives study shows that they're still thinking of converting the Pelham line to the B division, although that is just a sideline to the main part of the study. What would it take to convert an IRT line to the B division, besides cutting back the platforms? Could the curves handle 60-foot cars? (It seems obvious that 75-foot cars wouldn't fit).
As I understand it, all but the original portions of the IRT were built to Dual Contracts standards, which are BMT dimensions.
-Hank
Paul: The idea was to split the 2 Av into two branches in the Bronx. One would follow the right-of -way of the then Harlem River Branch of the NHRR. It could have utilized the defunct track space from NYW&B days and would connect to the Pelham Line just north of Hunts Points.
The IRT part of the Pelham Line would be cut back to Hunts Point.
The second branch would probably have run underground to the vicinity of 3 Av/149 St and then either utilize a rebuilt 3 Av El or a new subway to replace the EL.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for the info. It seems that the same plans keep getting recycled. The 1968-69 plan also used the Harlem River branch and the outer end of the Pelham line, plus a branch along the NYW&B trestle to 180th Street and Morris Park Avenue.
Maybe with the Bronx gaining population we will see these proposals revived again.
Paul
Well, part of the NYW&B "trestle" connecting 180th St. to the Harlem River (Amtrak) line was demolished about two years ago. I know it was in bad shape and would have required extensive rehabilitation before trains could use it, but it was there and now it's not, and I strongly doubt it will ever be rebuilt, so it looks like this is one plan who days of being recycled are over.
P.S. The section in question ran through property adjacent to what was the Coliseum Bus Depot, which was also demolished at about the same time. The two NYCT properties were then combined into one. Little progress seems to have been made in rebuilding this site. Is a new bus depot in fact being built on the site? Anyone know when, or just what the plans are?
Yes, I've seen the location recently; it's on 177th Street about two blocks east of West Farms Square. The trestle crosses 177th and ends in mid-air on the south side of the street. North of there the trestle is intact up to 180th Street station.
I suppose if the MTA really wanted to they could build a new ramp up from the Amtrak right-of-way east of the bus depot and connect it to the trestle just north of 177th Street. There is a parking lot for a construction company next to the trestle which would have to be taken, but as an engineering problem it's a lot simpler than building Hoover Dam (or the Cross-Bronx Expressway!). I admit that at the pace the MTA moves this would be a long way in the future, if ever.
I don't know why the bus depot construction is moving so slowly. I thought it was still an active project.
sounds ambitious!!!
Why do Redbirds have a high pitched wimpy sounding horn? They sound like a little kid's whistle. They shound be replaced with deep tone loud horns. Like the ones on the LIRR and R44s.
I think they should all have whistles like the Low-v's. The PATH's old K-car whistles are cool too. (I've been doing a lot of late nights so I've been seeing more and more PATH work trains recently)
By far the coolest train whistle is the ACMU one. no, not that big thing on the roof, the small, cute, fuzzy one above the front window of cars with their controls dissabled (i.e. the ones in the middle of the train). If you were on the ACMU fan trip the other year, you heard them at least once ;)
The differences between horn sounds tends to be due to the differences in manufacture.
The old westcode horns the R46's were equipped with when new were probably the purest sounding ones. The NYAB replacement horns on the R68 or any of the NYAB equipped cars sound real good too.
The WABCO horns differ in that there is an adjustment screw, for tone. Whenever I have tried to play with one of them, I got poor results though. R33's have the WABCO horns: ie screech rather than whoof, on so many of them.
The R44's have a completely different problem. Because the air supply system is un regulated, full main resivoir (130-150 PSI) pressure is availible to the horn. The D5 pnuphonic is designed for the feed valved pressure on the SMEE cars. It's lower, at only 110PSI. So the high pressure damages the horn, the first time it's blown. That's why most R44's sound so funny.
I made a suggestion to the higher ups in 1986 when they first did the switch. A simple and cheap air regulator, with a small one gallon volume tank. Plumbed in line before the solenoid valve (the one connected to the HORN button) it would have fed the horn the proper pressure, and saved the horns from premature failure. Maybe even cutting down on ABD's due to no horn.
But alas, the brass obviously felt it wasn't a priority.
Every horn I've heard on the New York subway is/was pitched at A flat. Some, such as the ones on the R-1/9s, have sounded an octave higher than those found on, say, the R-32s.
If you wanted a really quaint setting, you could mount an old-fashioned taxi horn with one of those squeezable bulbs. Can you imagine a train making a light move with the motorman squeezing a taxi horn at each station? Put four of them in a cab and you can play An American in Paris. Now I've done it - I'll bet I'm going to see such a setup in my next weird subway dream. And with my luck, it'll be on a train of R-10s.
I hope that none of the suburbanites who were in favor of these projects planned on using city streets. They are available, but the rent will be $360 million per year (the amount previously collected by the commuter tax).
That's OK, we can pay it.
We're putting a county-border-crossing tax on people going to the Hamptons. It's going to be set at 8% of the average cost of a weekend timeshare for the month of August.
Also we're putting a tax on asparagus at Asparagus Beach.
" ... we're in the mon-ey ... "
[Also we're putting a tax on asparagus at Asparagus Beach.]
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< [Also we're putting a tax on asparagus at Asparagus Beach.] >
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The beach (in Westhampton, IIRC) where, at sunset, the young people all stand up to check each other out--looking kind of like asparagus, but without the attractive ferns surrounding them.
As close as some New Yorkers get to nature.
Rim shot!
I was shocked to find out that the commuter tax was that low (less than 0.5%). Considering Manhattan sallaries, that's a bargain. Personally I think it should be much higher - and used to pay for connections such as LIRR/GCT. If that money isn't at least partially from commuter taxes, it shouldn't be built.
(Using the commuter tax for LIRR to GCT) That was my proposal -- use part of the commuter tax for suburban to city transit improvements, and re-enact the city resident tax surcharge for schools and subways. As it is, the city can no longer afford school and subway improvements, and if the MTA proceeds with the LIRR to GCT they will do so at the expense of the subway.
Larry, what do you have against people who commute from the suburbs to the city? Your proposal in case of a transit strike is to screw the suburbanites.
I'm just trying to figure this one out. People who live in the suburbs but come into work in the city by public transportation are:
1) taking public transit even though they own cars, and
2) working in the city rather than suburban office parks.
So, theoretically, they are making the right choices, as opposed to driving to work and contributing to sprawl by working in rambling one-story office parks in former cornfields. And your recommendation is to f*ck them over?!?!?
Generally, these are people with some *choice* over where they work and how they get there. Make commuting miserable for them, and you give the corporate site location people ANOTHER reason (on top of lower land prices, lower taxes, etc.) to move to one of those office parks. Make suburban commuting worse, and you add to the perception of many in the suburbs that New York City is still the crumbling basket case of the 1970s-early '80s, with public-service strikes every week, transit cars covered in graffiti and filled with knife-wielding thugs, etc., etc., etc.
Do you propose that the transit workers of New York pull a Philadelphia, permanently driving away passengers by the thousand like the TWU's strike did to SEPTA?!
Your point's well-put. Make things tough enough for suburban commuters, and before long the jobs will go elsewhere. City residents, of course, will then be the losers.
One thing that's often overlooked is the fact that suburban commuters impose a relatively low burden on the city. Indeed, they may well be a fiscal plus for the city, given the taxes they pay. Figure it this way - the single biggest cost item for New York or any other city is education, and suburban commuters don't send their children to city schools. Nor do they partake much if any in the city's whole panoply of social services. They presumably make relatively little use of the city's (gargantuan) public hospital system, and if they do they have health insurance. There are many other examples. In fact, commuters in a sense are chumps, getting very little in return for their tax dollars.
(What do commuters get for their tax dollars)?
They get to have city residents foot much of the bill for most the Metro Areas' poor people, while keeping them out of their own communities. As a result, city residents are forced to pay higher taxes as a share of income, and settle for inferior services, compared with suburban residents. That is especially true of education and transportation.
I'm paying the local share of the nursing home or home health care cost of every person who moved to the suburbs and left Grandma behind in the city. If someone moved to New Jersey, I'm paying their state share as well. If some suburban kid gets screwed up on drugs he or she ends up in NYC sooner or later -- there is no housing available at the low end in most suburbs. With housing limited to detached homes, many suburbs now have to attract city residents to fill their low wage jobs. When they get laid off, and end up on welfare, that's on my dime too. New York City accounts for virtually all of the local matching share for welfare and Medicaid in New York State. The cost of these programs in local taxes? $4 billion per year. Most states fund these services solely with local taxes, lifting the burden on the places where the poor are concentrated.
John, what would happen to Chicago if the state forced it to fund one-third of all the welfare payments, and 20 percent of all the Medicaid payments, within its borders in local taxes, then enacted the most expensive Medicaid program in the U.S? What would happen in Chicago's share of Illinois state school aid was lower than its share of students, and occasionally was not paid? What would happen if suburbanites were allowed to take local government jobs in Chicago, but Chicago residents were forbidden from taking local government jobs in the suburbs?
You have no idea how many discriminatory policies are targeted at NYC residents.
[... city residents are forced to pay higher taxes as a share of income, and settle for inferior services, compared with suburban
residents.]
Can't agree with that ... my taxes are much higher, no matter how you look at it. That's why my kids are all moving out of town.
[If some suburban kid gets screwed up on drugs he or she ends up in NYC sooner or later -- there is no housing available at the low end in most suburbs.]
Larry what were you drinking yesterday ... can't agree.
Back to the transit related thread ... I don't mind paying a"commuter" tax, it's not that much & the city needs it. But I don't agree that a special LIRR/Metro-North tax should be added to the fair or a portion of the ticket price should go to the city.
Mr t__:^)
(Suburban taxes higher).
Add the local personal income tax to the property tax on my 17 foot wide rowhouse, and we pay about $6,700. If we lived in a coop or condo of equivalent value, we'd pay more. If I started my own business and had to pay the unincoroporated business tax on the same income, we'd pay even more.
Friends who live in the burbs pay $5,000 -- $7,000 in property taxes, but no local income taxes. Plus, without the burden of the poor, they have 20 kids in their public kindergartens. We had 35. Add the Catholic school bill -- about $4,000 -- to my tax bill too.
The data show that local taxes on Long Island are high, but as a share of income NYC taxes are much higher.
[Add the local personal income tax to the property tax on my 17 foot wide rowhouse, and we pay about $6,700. If we lived in a coop or condo of equivalent value, we'd pay more. If I started my own business and had to pay the unincoroporated business tax on the same income, we'd pay even more.
Friends who live in the burbs pay $5,000 -- $7,000 in property taxes, but no local income taxes. Plus, without the burden of the poor, they have 20 kids in their public kindergartens. We had 35. Add the Catholic school bill -- about $4,000 -- to my tax bill too.]
Don't forget that suburban commuters have to pay for the "privilege" of commuting. And I'm not talking about the (admittedly minor) commuter tax. My Zone 11 LIRR ticket from Suffolk costs me $214 per month, and this is scarcely luxurious travel :-) The subway, of course, is extra. If I lived closer in, my ticket would be less, but I might have to pay for parking.
Another thing often overlooked is the time aspect of commuting. Although I work 9 to 5, as a result of train schedules I leave my house at 6:25 am and get home about 7:10 pm. If I lived in the city and had, say, a 45 minute trip to work, I'd have almost three extra hours each day. And believe me, that makes a big difference.
[If I lived in the city and had, say, a 45 minute trip to work, I'd have almost three extra hours each day. And believe me, that makes a big difference.]
I second that ... when I commuted, from closer in, it still was a very long day. I did subscribe to more mag., because I had lots of reading time & didn't have to drive (or own a new car), but I had no life out side of work. Now it's a 25 min drive, at least until a few more folks discover the road I use. So it's all relitive.
BTW, my wife would have us move to Manhattan in a minute.
Mr t__:^)
I am going on the Coney Island tour Saturday. I plan on using the F train from 34th St. midtown to Ave. X. Does any one know if there are any diversions on the F using this route for Saturday? Thanks for any imput.
> I am going on the Coney Island tour Saturday. I plan on using the F
> train from 34th St. midtown to Ave. X. Does any one know if there
> are any diversions on the F using this route for Saturday? Thanks
> for any imput.
As far as I know, there are no diversions. Check the MTA website
to make sure.
- Lyle Goldman
Why do most of the subway lines become elevated in upper manhatten and the other boroughs? It is odd, since all parts of the city make it hard to construct such methods. I especially wonder why some subways cross the rivers on bridges and not under the rivers in tunnels. I find these interesting.
In Brooklyn, most of the elevated routes follow the routes of late 19th century steam elevated or surface routes. Almost all Brooklyn el routes in service today were rebuilt in the 19-teens and 19-twenties for heavier, steel cars. The lines in the Bronx, upper Manhattan, and Queens were largely built in the 19-teens and twenties as extensions of subway routes (the same applies to the IRT New Lots extension). The areas traversed were not fully developed and building el routes was cheaper than underground construction, as a means of bringing subways to the outer boroughs. Remember that one of the key reasons for the massive subway building in New York between 1910 and 1940 was to disperse the population from Manhattan and inner Brooklyn to newer housing in more outlying areas.
The same goes for the bridges. When these structures were planned, it was an obvious choice to make provisions for subways in lieu of building separate, and far more expensive, underwater tunnels.
As Andy said cost is a major factor NOW! Cheapest to construct a rail line is on the surface, or in NYC the embankment type of construction; then comes aerial, then cut & cover, then tunneling & boring thru rock. Clearly doing ANYTHING underwater is expensive; and tacking tracks onto a bridge for autos is a shared cost method of getting two things done at once..only problem is you have to design it right from the start!
Here in the SF Bay area, when BART was built, the standard right of way was either aerial or surface. If communities didn't want the structure aerial, then they had to PAY the additional cost to construct it underground (cut & cover). The TRANSBAY TUBE is just that: a TUBE that is on top of the bay, built in sections, sunk, and connected by underwater diving teams. It is capable of movement during a quake ..as it did in 1989.
Its cheaper to build Els, even if they destroy property values.
Many portions of NYC Els were built before there was property or any value to it. And while there are always exceptions, els tend for the most part to have commercial enterprises along their lengths, especially around the stations. And they spurred development everywhere they were built in the City. What's now Roosevelt Avenue in Queens would probably still be cabbage farms, for example, without the el being built.
While in some instances, property values may go up when an el is removed, such as Sixth Avenue or Third Avenue in Manhattan, Ninth hasn't quite matched the more easterly avenues. And if you look at Myrtle Avenue in Brooklyn, Jamaica Avenue in Queens, and Third Avenue at the Hub (even with the subway still there) or at Fordham Road in The Bronx, the loss of the el has hardly increased property values; if anything, those neighborhoods have lost business and property values significantly.
Isn't it amazing how we went through several decades of damning the els but insisting that solid steel and concrete overhead highways were "modern"? It would be refreshing to see the same energy used for opposition to rapid transit expansion demanding that the elevated highways (Gowanus, Brooklyn-Queens Expressway, to start) be torn down with an undergound replacement "promised," like the Second Avenue subway.
Has any elevated highway ever enhanced property values the way elevated lines did? Or the way partially elevated systems like those in Washington and San Francisco are doing now?
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
[While in some instances, property values may go up when an el is removed, such as Sixth Avenue or Third Avenue in Manhattan, Ninth hasn't quite matched the more easterly avenues. And if you look at Myrtle Avenue in Brooklyn, Jamaica Avenue in Queens, and Third Avenue at the Hub (even with the subway still there) or at Fordham Road in The Bronx, the loss of the el has hardly increased property values; if anything, those neighborhoods have lost business and property values significantly.]
Whether the removal of an el has a positive effect on property values may depend on whether there's other transit available. Sixth Avenue is an obvious case, with the el having been replaced by the IND subway. Nor was Third Avenue cut off from transit access when the el came down, as the Lexington Avenue IRT was a short block away for much of its length.
Myrtle and Jamaica avenues illustrate the opposite effect. Nothing replaced the Myrtle Avenue el, and the fact that the area remains "transit-less" today may be part of the reason why it's declined in an economic sense. Jamaica Avenue's plight has been well-documented. Thanks in large part to pressure from local merchants, the el came down a decade before the Archer Avenue subway opened. By the time subway service began, the neighborhood had declined precipitously. In fact, many of the merchants who had demanded the el's removal were themselves gone by then.
Now for a word of caution. As I've long maintained, neighborhood growth and decline is a complex process. The presence or absence of transit is just one of many factors. So it's important not to read too much into these examples.
New York isn't the only area where loss of an unreplaced el can hurt. Washington St. is still Boston's main transportation corridor to the southwest, but without the el, it has lost its convenient access to downtown. Dudley Square is Boston's most important transportation hub. For years 12 important surface lines connected with the el there. Even today, with the el gone for 12 years, there sre many lines terminating or passing through there. The problem is that the lines from the east must meander a zig-zag route through congested streets to reach Ruggles Station and the new Orange Line. Those from the west intersect the Orange line at one of four stations and terminate at Dudley. Route 49 which used to provide the local service under the el, now serves the customers from Northampton and Dover as well as the local hops. Quality through replacement service promised in 1987 has never materialized, and has been downgraded to the point where the 49 bus will replace itself! Some replacement service!
The els were cheap to build, but they fostered and encouraged business in their shadows, and it is in such situations they are missed.
(Els fostered business). And, if the Astoria Line is extended to LaGuardia it will increase the property values of everyone in the area, with the possible exception of residences on two block which would be in the shadow of the extension.
Latest rumor -- Valone & McCaffery are against all options except branching some of the Flushing line trains off at Shea -- or LIRR trains to Penn, then hooking them back to LaGuardia. Awful ideas.
This almost never happens -- the head of community board 1 in Queens actually has the right idea. He wants $80,000 a household for those along the extension. The would be less than $10 million. I'd put $50 million into mitigation and compensation, and it would still be cheap.
My daughter just rented 1/2 block from the Ravenswood line in Chicago.
She uses the train all of the time for work, to the airport and for recreation. In revitalized neighborhoods the "L" is quite and asset and helps push values higher. The old lines formed the early suburban areas. Transit can help development and redevelopment but it cant do it alone.
Partially elevated in SF?
Do you mean BART in the East Bay?
I'm curious...
By the way, I took myself on a field trip over to the BART extension to the Airport the other day. Seeing that level of transit construction just makes me happy.
Much of the route goes alonside/through cemetaries (Colma, CA is a strange place in that its primary industry is cemetaries); I heard that one of the cemetary owners had tried to hold up construction demanding noise abatement. I think BART is pretty quiet, but I guess they thought it could wake the dead!!!
So now I am wondering- are they going to start advertising cemetaries with transit access? "You may be six feet under, but you'll still get around!"
:-)
Ah yes, just take a ride on the "L" train to Wilson Avenue station, and go to the upper level for a fine cemetery view.
Wayne
[So now I am wondering- are they going to start advertising cemetaries with transit access? "You may be six feet under, but you'll still get around!"]
Pinelawn Cemetery on Long Island has its own stop on the LIRR. Gate of Heaven Cemetery in Westchester County has a stop on Metro-North, called Mt. Pleasant. Both stations exist mainly to serve cemetery visitors.
The old Metropolitan West Side Elevated (forerunner to the current CTA)in Chicago took the cemetery visits one step further. At one time, the "L" as it is known in the "Second City", provided funeral train service, complete with casket handeling facilities at the old Marshfield complex as well as several other elevated stations on the near West Side. The "L" trains provided relatively quick access to the cemeteries in the western suburbs at a time when road development was minimal. It was considered "fashionable" to have the dearly departed make the trip to the burial site on the "L". Can you imagine doing this today?!!
Even further back, in steam days, the IC comutter line served the Oakwoods cemetery with a branch at 67th St
And the BQT had its one-track Tilden Avenue shuttle to Holy Cross Cemetery in Brooklyn.
At least into the 1950s (maybe later), there were BMT Standards that operated on Sundays from the Broadway level at Broadway/Myrtle to Metropolitan to serve cemetery visitors. That way, they wouldn't have to climb the extra stairs up to the el platform. (Myrtle-Chambers service didn't operate on Sundays.)
Did the BQT or any of the other New York area streetcar operations have casket cars or tracks directly into cemeteries?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
The Phila Rapid Transit (PRT), predecessor to PTC/SEPTA, had its own funeral car, "Hillside" (a modified double-ended Nearside car), which was used for funerals and transport to cemeteries. There were a couple along the Willow Grove/Glenside line which had sidings for this service (Hillside Cemetery being one of them, naturally). This service ended in the '20's.
Subway-surface route 13 has a loop adjacent to Mt Moriah Cemetery and cars still turn there today. Also, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El, but you can get to Laurel Hill Cemetery, across Bustleton Ave from the Frankford yard.
Sorry - the bugaboos really got me this week! The cemetery adjacent to Bridge-Pratt is Cedar (not Laurel) Hill. Laurel Hill is not served by rail, but you can get there on a couple of bus routes.
The Myrtle Ave El at Metropolitan Ave was a trolley line known as the Luthren line,and as the cemetarie circle line as Metropolitan Ave has cemetaries all around it,the El still is at ground level on the same route the trolleys used,as the power poles along the route are former trolley wire line poles,you can tell by the small domed cap atop the pole,in fact one could follow a former trolley route in older neighborhoods just by finding the iron poles,mostly black....check old photos and have fun,here in Portland are teltale signs of old trolley routes which had a like pole only a difrent top, but is also iron and has a telescopeing style and was a pea green,plenty are around wit5h the tracks poping through the blacktop.
I was down in Philly today and saw some things of interest. All Broad St trains terminating at Fern Rock loop counter clockwise around the yard. They have been doing this for a few years now. Its what in the yard that is so interesting. Apparently when the B-IV order was placed it included two extra cars for use as work motors. They are numbered CW 3 and CW 4 and look very much like the passenger equiptment except that some of the doors seem to be plated over. Rather like the R-127.
Also of interest are the four preserved cars. These are No 1 Class B-1"North Broad"car,repainted in what must have been PRT colors. No 166 Class A-33 "South Broad" car and No 1025 Class A-32 Delaware River Bridge Car. These three cars make up a set and seem to be clean and serviceable though a little the worse for being outside all the time. The last car is "North Broad" No 51 whose windows are boarded over. These cars are easily seen and photographed from the station ramps.
I rode the Market-Frankford Line midday and only saw one train of the M-3's. There days are getting shorter so if you plan on going do it soon.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I've seen M-4 #1159 and I think some more came last weekend. You'll find them during the rush hours only, now.
CW3 and 4 always manage to fool railfans, who generally see them and think that a couple of K cars have been taken out of service and made into non-revenue cars. They can easily fool anyone.
The trip around Fern Rock started with Railworks ('92) when the Regional Rail lines ended at Fern Rock and transferred their passengers to the subway. Before then, in the rush hour, only locals called at Fern Rock, with the expresses ending at Olney and the Ridge spurs at Erie. To get as many trains as possible to Fern Rock and avoid massive transfers at already-busy Olney, all three routes were brought into FR. It was a bit too much for the 2-track station to handle, thus the trip around the yard began. Strangely, it's still being operated this way. It does work much better than the old way, where incoming trains were often delayed with the moves across the crossovers, etc. As you've seen, it's a scenic yard tour for railfans.
I keep hearing that Budds are off the El except for peak-hour trains, but I keep seeing otherwise. One or two trains still seem to sneak on the line, even on weekends, and you can usually find a string of Budds on the center track south of Spring Garden in midday.
Bob: I also noticed that the midday Broad-Ridge trains have been extended to Olney after being cut back to Girard for a time. They still continue to Fern Rock on weekday evenings and Saturdays. The interesting thing about that is that they provide express service on Broad Street north of Girard and they also provide this express service at times when the regular Broad St Express is not operating.
The only difference being that the Broad Ridge trains stop at North Philly while the regular express does not.
I also saw two rather large flat cars with CW 3 and CW 4. Would these be the former Broad St car 155 now CW 5 and 174 now CW 6?
Larry,RedbirdR33
A question here about the M2 and for that matter M4 and M6 commuter coaches used by CDOT/MNCR for service on ELECTRIFIED lines of fomer New Haven (now CDOT) and MNCR.
Would it be possible to run these cars without modification the entire length of the electrified Northeast Corridor?
Could an M2 actually originate in let's say New Haven and travel the corridor to Washington?
What barriers exist that would prevent this type of equipment from travelling outside of their home turf - further out on the corridor?
Most people would not want to take a trip to Washington on a commuter coach - but I'm curious if it is theoretically possible.
After crossing the Hell Gate bridge, and arriving at the eastern limits of Harold interlocking, they would meet an obstacle. An over riding third rail. Pennsylvania Station is almost all third rail of that type. The southernmost tracks have none at all. NJT uses them, but they can only be accesed from the west end of the station, they end in blocks on the east side.
I appreciate your response.
But this leaves me with a new question. If the M2s can't run through to Penn and beyond - how do the AEM7s that Amtrak uses make it up into Connecticut?
Do the AEM7s have a thrid rail capability? Do they run through on catenary?
I'm missing something here.
The AEM&'s (and ALL Pennsylvania and New Haven motors) have always been able to run from Harrisburg/Washington to New Haven - the trolley runs all way. Third Rail is in Pennsylvania Station both for the Long Island and the original DC PRR electrification (DD-1's).
AEM7's don't have third rail capability - they don't need it!!
Th irony here is that the New Haven was obliged to conform to host/bigger brother standards of two competing outfits who sometimes behaved as if track guage wasn't even the same. The PRR and the NYC did almost everthing differently until they merged to prove one can be dumber than two. In any evenbt New Haven built its overhead to work with PRR style motors and its third rail to NYC standards for GCT. Now that most of this trackage is under one umbrella it is time for MTA to start thinking about redoing the third rail on the NYC/NH side to match the PRR/LIRR. Why so all of the M's can run anywhere. After all the LIRR to GCT which will be necessary from a capacity standpoint despite FRA lunacy, should be done in the most flexible manner possible.
Everyone here is forgetting a few small isssues:
1)Regardless of third rail, the M-2s can NOT run below the Hell Gates bridge - Amtrak is 11kv 25Hz below there. The M-2s no longer have 25hz capacity, and the 4s and 6s never did.
2)They (so far) can't run above new haven on the new electrification - that's at 25kv 60hz
3) The New Haven pioneered the 11kv overhead system. The PRR copied it because it was sucessful (Though early MUs were ironically sluggish on 11kv, not DC, as todays are)
New Haven's equipment ALWAYS had NYC's third rail equipment because GCT was NH';s terminal in NY for many years.
Also, AFAIK, NH motors never ran below penn, nor did GG-1s run above Penn until the PC disaster of the 60's
BTW - the GG-1's wheelbase was "borrowed" from the EP-2 motor. Thus, the new haven deserves at least SOME credit :P
Your post about voltage doesn't make sense, unless ATK north of New York is not 25hz. According to my ATK power contacts, all of the ex-PRR/NH is all 25 hz, and the fed$ to convert to commericial frequency is not in the cards. The new Acela (doesn't that sound like something you don't want to catch?) equipment is supposed to change voltage/frequency on the fly.
Note: even if the PRR/NH is converted, the tunnels (Hudson and Baltimore) will stay @ 12.5 KV 25hz due to possible heavy arcing to car roofs.
Amtrak North of NYC is 60 Hz, 12.5KV. It meets at New Rochelle with Metro-North, who has been 60Hz since about 1983. ALL of amtrak's trains can switch between 11kv 25hz, 13kv 60hz and 25kv 60 hz, even the E60s. That's how long they've been meaning to change over :) Yes, they will remain at 12kv for tunnels, though they don't necessarrily have to stay at 25hz. FWIW, a metro-North car guy told me that the line runs from 12kv - to as high as 15kv, and that the M-2s will cut out below 11,500 volts. He also said that reliability went up after the switch to 60hz, that they cars are no longer capeable of 25hz operation, and that they were origionally shipped with mercury arc ignitrons (air cooled!), but are now SCR.
Hey - amtrak is still 11kv 25hz? GG-1 railfan trip anyone? :) :)
The ArrowIII cars have a simple switch in the computer cabinet to switch them from 11/12K to 25K for the ex Erie Lack o'money properties. Unfortunately it's not trainlined. So to transfer from one to the other, someone has to walk through the train flipping switches.
The ALP44 Electric Locomotives can do the switch over on the fly, on the MidTown Direct ramps from the Corridor to the Erie.
My ATK contacts refined the voltage statistics for the Corridor:
Boston - New Haven: 25Kv 60hz
New Haven - Sunnyside Yard: 12.5 kv 25hz
Sunnyside - Washington 11kv 25hz
The section between the 60hz and the 25hz is as follows: a section insulator (breaker) followed by a 250ft dead section followed by another breaker. The purpose of the 250 ft dead is to prevent 2 hep equipped motors (MU'ed) from being in different frequencies at the same time.
Sice the CDOT cars run under both 12.5 and 11 kv trolley, there's no reason why one can't run from New Haven to Washington.
No, No, No, no, and NO. metro-North has been 60 hz from New haven to NYC since 1983. The M-4s have NO 25hz capeability, nor do the M-6s. MN inherited the old Cos Cob generating station. They closed it, because it was unreliable. Listen to the transformer hum an M-2 makes durring acceleration - it's 60hz. Listen the next time one drops pan at New Haven - 60 Hz. The 25hz switch doesn't happen til right out side sunnyside, heading up north. Everything above there, including the Hell Gate bridge is 60Hz. Has been since about '83. That Amtrak doesn't know what the frequency is doesn't surprise me - they don't own the New Haven line, and the AEM-7s switch automatically, and the E60's NEVER run above Penn in NYC. I don't think they ever did either.
Sorry Phil, but my ATK source (who is a high-up in DOT) has all the straight scoop, as he is directly involved in the high-speed project. His info was in answer to a direct question about voltage, as well as why the ACELA trains won't run above 125 south of New York.
David, I going to response to your E-mail ASAP. I do not have time because of school.
Dave -
Have you done some major upgrading of the main web page for the site? It seems a lot "cleaner" now than it used to, especially the thumbnail pictures - they always had a dingy look about them, but now they're nice and bright. Looks good!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yup!
I replaced the thumbnail pictures for the How It Works, Trains & Stations, Around NY, and Around the World sections with color versions. The old ones were "sepia toned" using Picture Publisher. I didn't like how it looked either- not enough color!
How it Works used to be a shot of Coney Island Yard, it's now an L train and signal at Broadway Junction. The T&S thumbnail used to be a platform view of City Hall, it's now a view of the sign and stairway vault), and the Around NY used to be a picture of a H&M "Black Car" train at Exchange Place and is now a shot of Metro-North at Fordham. The Transfer Station image I replaced with a color one rather than the B&W one I had before. Building the Subway remained the same (1904 B&W view of the IRT 23rd St station). The Around the World image of a PCC in San Francisco I replaced with the color version, one of my personal favorite photographs. The color versions really make a lot of difference.
I also added the "Upcoming Events" calendar to the top of the page and added some new banner thumbnails to the random selection. There are now 56 images in the random pool. Some of the new ones came from the Willy B fan trip.
Thanks for noticing! Any other site design feedback is welcome.
-Dave
Dave,
You did a wonderful job with the web site. Now I can get all my information in one since I can just click on the Events of the week.
I'm glad I made this site my homepage.
I too sned compliments. I also like the new top banner for Sub Talk (and Bus Talk), the table is so nice!
Let me add my compliments. Dave does a wonderful job of keeping this site up and running. Everything he does adds to the excellence that makes nycsubway.org a first class site about subways and transit , even if you're not from New York.
Lets not forget that this is a volunteer activity! Dave does this out of the goodness of his heart; it doesn't generate any revenue for him.
Gerry
This weekend will be a good for getting pictures of Redbirds at 148 Street and Lenox Term. Even a shot of a No.2 Redbird and a No.3 R62A together in the station.
I found a site with three ACELA photos.
The address is www.trainweb.com/railpix/ampx10.html
Scroll to the bottom, they are the last three.
Is all of Metro-North electrified? Or are some parts still running on diesel?
Metro-North has four unelectrified sections - the Hudson line north of Croton Harmon, the Harlem line north of Brewster North, and the Danbury and Waterbury branches off the New Haven line.
Don't forget Metro- North West of Hudson
Hey! I resent that!
It's NJT, with Metro North Stickers on the equipment. Just cause of some lousy finnancial deal, so they could cross into NY state, dosen't mean you have to insult them. Believe me, no one at NJT has any love for the MTA.
The Port Jervis trains don't have Metro-North crews?
I guess that would make sense, seeing as how the line is historically Erie RR, not NYC or NYNHHRR.
The Metro-North Port Jervis AND Pascack Valley lines are run by NJT under contract from Metro-North..which is actually a benefit in some ways for us upstaters.. For example..we are under a NJT fare structure,NOT an MTA fare structure; so theres no such thing as a 'peak fare' system which rips you off for traveling during the rush (which in the MTAs case seems to be getting longer and longer...) Also we can purchase an excursion RT fare which you can use on any train in the PM and in the AM can be bought on Train 72 which arrives in Hoboken at 855am! This, plus train 72 is express south of Suffern, makes for a nice fast cheap trip into NYC.....Now, if they could now only give us some decent service on weekends.......
Also a lot of the conductors are real vets, having started work for the E-L,so they have a real nice laid back attitude about things
so theres no such thing as a 'peak fare' system which rips you off for traveling during the rush
This may be true but only for the New York portions of the NJT operated lines. NJT has an offpeak discount -the excursion fare- (or a peak surcharge, however you want to look at it) on its other lines. The monthly tickets are based on the peak fares. When I used to work nights it was cheaper to buy individual tickets than a NJT monthly pass to commute from Dover.
Why do you think I'm always crowing about NJT? The finest most professional outfit any where. The Harriman Gold Medal three times, and the APTA award twice. NJT is probably the finest rail passenger carrier in America today.
I swear, the dumbest thing I ever did is quit there. I was a Car Inspector there in 1990. The traveling to Dover and Atlantic City killed me. I was new, so I couldn't hold down an assignment for more than a few days before someone with more seniority would bump me. So when the ABB people offered me a position in their customer service section, I jumped. Stupid, stupid, stupid. There are guys who were hired with me who are engineers over there now.
[NJT ... The finest most professional outfit any where.]
Interesting .... I seem to recall a number of posts by folks that ride NJT ... they had an opposite view of NJT ?
Mr t__:^)
As an occasional NJT passenger - North Jersey Coast Line, normally off-peak - I'm usually pretty happy. My biggest gripes are with the engineers who block the front window so I can't see down the tracks ahead and with a couple of conductors who hate passengers - especially one particular conductor I run into regularly on the afternoon run from NYP back to Little Silver, who will close off the last four (or even six) cars so all seats are occupied in the front four or six and people are standing in the vestibules. He's apparently got a fair amount of seniority, based on the way he treats the other conductors on the run - he's like a little Napoleon (looks a lot like him too).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How does he treat them? How old is he?
guess he's the head conductor, must be a disgruntal employee.
Yes, he apparently is the head. I would guess he's about 40. He's verbally abusive, barking out orders, basically trying to make up for his small physical stature with his "commanding" attitude.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Iride their NorthEast Corridor line. You can count on standing and even on late night trains! many times they close the first 3-4 cars and cram us ito the rear.
As far as on-time forget it-they are late when it's hot, they are late when it's not. They are late when it's nice, and they are late when it is not. They are late when . . . .
That is why I call them :
Nasty
Junky
Trains
I have to agree. Despite the awards that NJT's won, one ride on the Corridor will turn anyone who doesn't have to use it into an ex-rider. I related an awful experience on the line on my trip to the Low-V run last September in SubTalk and, from what I keep hearing, it's only getting worse.
My experience: toward trenton: Engineer was reading a paper, totally ignoring his driving and a few signals too. Also had this annoying habit of letting the train get to around 50 or so, then jamming on the power back to 80...
From Trenton. Opps missed train #1 because it was dark and quiet till the last second, no announcement or anything. Just picked up and let. Banging on window as it pulled out yielded a conductor telling me "It's impossible to stop the train" Train #2 we nearly missed because the last call was the ONLY call, and the doors were promptly closing. Train hits penn, doors open while it's still rolling in. NJT looks cool, but looks are deciving. But then, it's New Jersey ;)
You know, every one has a horror story. I could look at ANY rail operation and find bad apples.
It's when you look at the big picture. That's when NJT shines. Brighter than any of the others. I say this as objectevly as I can. They do have the awards to prove it.
I'm guessing about your particular crew. On many runs where the crowd is less than full load the Railroad will not assign any assistant conductors to the train.
A crew consists of an engineer and a conductor and a rear brakeman.
Typically, each of the two train service employees can handle two cars apiece. The three of them will work all the same trains together throughout the day. On the heavy ridership trains, assistant conductors will be assigned. They answer to the conductor in-charge. They don't always stay aboard the entire trip. Sometimes they get off at a station where the ridership has thinned. Then they board a train going the other way to help that crew. That's why they aren't officially crew of that train.
The train may have extra cars because ridership demands in one direction require that many, and not in the other. So because it's not practical to cut and add cars all the time, the crew runs the extras "deadheaded" This is all at the discretion of the conductor in charge.
Passenger loading is occassionaly more than the two can handle, so most conductors will open an extra car. Some don't. They can't kee an eye on all the fares that need to be collected if they have to monitor more than two. The railroad should assign more assistant conductors then. But if the ridership is only heavy infrequently, then they will leave the regular crew to handle it.
I still think NJT does this better than any of the other carriers in the area. I have seen the LIRR guys too, and they are very proffesional, but just not quite as good as the folks at NJT. MNCRR, I can't really say. I only ride there infrequently.
So they loose a couple of fares. Open an extra car when there are standees and have the crew do the best they can to collect. The comfort of the passengers should be a priority.
Thank you!! I'd rather see more open cars than marble monuments to Shirley(Although she's now gone to Texas) and Stanley (Rosenblum) ther acting director.
Many times they cram us in like sardines and then I see two or three crew members punch several tickets and then go rest in the empty cars.
This Sat. afternoon I caught a LIRR out of Atlantic Ave. It was a warm day & frist two cars were closed, but the next two had no A/C.
The crew opened the first two & made an announcement suggesting that folks could move to the first two cars if they wished. In my 11 years on the LIRR these messages happened frequently, i.e. part of the friendly SERVICE to customers.
Mr t__:^)
The whole empty car/standee thing is one of the few problems I have with Metra. The number of cars on the trains is, of course, determined by the high rush-hour passenger load. In the evening, after rush hour and the last expresses of the day, they often close off the first one or two cars behind the engine (the trains always come into and out of the downtown terminals with the locomotive away from the station building) and shut off the lights and A/C in the sealed cars. I presume they do this because detaching the unused cars would require large numbers of additional locomotives to take the cars back to the yards.
The problem is that some nights have more people staying downtown late than others -- with no discernable pattern for Metra to plan from -- and on those nights, there are standees in the vestibules of several cars. Invariably, someone asks the conductor to open another car. Some conductors will open another car if there is an excessive number of standees, but most outright refuse to, regardless of the passenger load.
This is a frequent practice on Metro-North, too.
Usually, train personnel are good about opening extra cars when people are standing (even if they're not always happy about it), but about a year ago, I was on a packed Harlem line train leaving GCT when they opened the front car for four riders with bicycles. I followed them in, along with a fellow rider who turned out to be a non-uniformed (and presumably off-duty) MN cop.
The conductor came in and told me the car was for bicyclists only, and I would have to go stand. She had the cop threaten to forcibly eject my girlfriend and myself from the train unless we left the car. I took everyone's names and sent an angry letter to Don Nelson, the president of the railroad.
I have to give him a lot of credit -- he responded quickly with an apology, said the railroad's policy was to open an additional car whenever conditions were crowded enough to warrant it, and stated that the crew of the train had been "re-trained."
Of course, I had written the letter fishing for a free ticket, but I guess I can't complain ...
Thanks for the details. Unfortunately, this seems to be a habit of this particular conductor, regardless of how many other crew members he has - and no matter what time I leave the city on a weekend, I seem to get his train. I've seen him close six out of ten when he has three other crew members and people are standing in the vestibules and aisles. One time I had to stand all the way to Red Bank, one stop before mine, because he closed the fourth car at Woodbridge and told everyone there to move forward - and he had at least two other crew members that day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds like this guy's just a plain scum bag. Can't be helped. You get 'em in all walks of life. Sorry.
Paul: As others have said the Port Jervis trains are run by NJT under a purchase of service contract with MN. MN owns about 30 coaches and several engines which are assigned to the MN Port Jervis Line and the Pascack Valley Line. Until relatively recently this equiptment was part of the general NJT pool and could be found throughout the NJT System. However with the most recent contract efforts are made to keep MN equiptment on trains which run into NYS but of course there are exceptions to this.
The stations within NYS except Suffern are maintained by MN crews based either at Beacon or Harmon.
Curiously the Suffern Station is considered to be an NJT station even though it is in NYS and NJT Tarriff Rules apply.(ie Seniors are 62 while at other NYS Stations they are 65)
Larry,RedbirdR33
Does anyone know if there are any plans to create a connection, a la Midtown Direct, so that these lines can run directly into NYC? As it is now, a transfer to PATH at Hoboken is necessary.
When the Allied Junction station in Secaucus is finished, passengers will be able to transfer to the Northeast Corridor, but that is all that will happen in the short term. There is a long-range plan for a Midtown Direct type of service in the Access to the Region's Core proposals, but that won't happen until the capacity under the Hudson is increased.
Subfan: There is a long term proposal to have Port Jervis trains cross the Hudson from Nyack to Tarrytown on a to be built bridge. The proposal would further extend this line east more or less along the I-287 corridor to link up with the New Haven Line in the vicinity of Rye. As I said this is a long range proposal(say 2010/15) and may not come to pass.
Larry,RedbirdR33
(Tarrytown Bridge) The idea would be to move freight across the bridge also. I believe the affluent people of Nyack killed it -- the environment, you know.
[I believe the affluent people of Nyack killed it -- the environment, you know.]
It amazes me that the people in this country fall for, or buy without question, the BS the enviornmentalist are dishing out these days!
Case in point; how many years did property owners using the environment as an issue delay electrification of the New Haven - Boston section of the NE Corridor?
One newly built rail line could divert hundreds of cars off the highway and the tree-huggers scream that the new line will endanger the "environment". WHO's enviornment is being endangered?
If America had to put up with the legislation, environmental restrictions, etc. in the formative years of this country, I'd say development wouldn't have not have gotten west the first set of mountains ranges encountered in the east!
AND WE PUT UP WITH IT AND ASK FOR MORE!
Jim K.
Chicago
Didn't I just say that enviornmentalism is the new home of all the socialists and radicals that "lost" with the fall of the old Soviet Union?
Most so-called environmentalists aren't. People will hide behind anything that most people think is good to disguise their self interest. The problem is, actual environmentalists are in denial. Tell them that all their stupid rules allow people to stop a subway, which is good for the environment, and they'll ignore it.
It's like the Brownfields thing. Make anyone who buys an old industrial site liable to covert it to a pristine state and what happens? These sites are abandoned, and virgin land is built on instead.
"Didn't I just say that enviornmentalism is the new home of all the socialists and radicals that 'lost' with the fall of the old Soviet Union?"
That's an insult to the commies, or at least the ones in the (ex) Soviet Union. At least they believed in building things: railways, factories, dams, power plants, mines, etc. Heck, the Moscow subway system is a masterpiece (obligatory subway content!).
If I had to choose between ONLY the radical environmentalists and the Soviet hard-liners to run the country, I'd vote for the Reds, hands down. At least most people in the Soviet Union had running hot and cold water, electric lights, a television set, etc., even if the apartments were tiny. If the radical environmentalists had their way, we'd all be living in the woods as hunter-gatherers!
Like I said, environmentalism has been hijacked by some very selfish people. That's what happens.
Less racism is good, but they you get Al Sharpton.
More freedom is good, but then you get the gun nuts.
Protecting the envirnoment is good, but then you get the bike crazies.
Equal rights for women is good, but then you get an anti-child mentality.
People have to be willing to repudiate people who claim to be on their side. I'm certainly happy to repudiate most city planners.
I think we all forget that freedom comes with strings attached, called responsibility. People want to be free but then want to squelch anyone who has different views, beliefs, etc. ABC News ran an interesting story a couple of nights this past week on how we've become an uncivil society and how much it's related to the freedoms we have but don't know how to handle.
Whatever happened to 'live and let live'?
I was told once that there are two subjects that should not be discussed with people, if you would like to retain their friendship.
Politics and religion. Since the two always seem to revolve around bad things in the world, I think my Grandmother was speaking words of wisdom.
I saw the posts on the president, and our mayor. And I decided to stay out of it. I take back what I said about the envoirnmentalists. Forget I said it.
I pledge to stay out of these discussions.
I have enough controversy with what I say about Trains!
Capitalism is the ecomomic system which does best at harnessing human nature for the good of society. Communism/socialism generally ignores individual rewards and fails because there is no real incentive to excel. However Capitalism needs to be regulated by a relatively strong government (Not to redistribute the rewards through welfare, but to act as a referee to make sute that consumer and employee rights are protected) Radical Environmentalists (Luddites) certainly look to pre- civilizational lifestyles so as people are educated as to their true agenda, they get laughed out of the ballpark now what does this have to do with the subway, Plenty, really as mainstream environmentalists know that rail mass transit is the most environmentally friendly mode of transportation compatible with modern civilization. At one time railroads (Including most transit lines) were owned by private investors PAYING TAXES. Then the Automobile and Air interests convinced the political leadership that it would be militarily advantageous to build and maintain airway and highway systems at public expense and to institute regulatory discrimination against all forms of rail transportation,resulting in the current situation where ALL forms of transportation COLLECT WELFARE. America needs strong but even-handed regulation of transportation. NOT CORPORATE OR SOCIAL WELFARE (except in cases of true need) and a transportation system that pays it's taxes and obeys the laws (like any good citizen). Over time, inefficent modes would be replaced by more rail resulting in a cleaner environment through regulated capitalism.
Would it also link with the Hudson and Harlem lines? It seems foolishly roundabout to have all trains run east to the New Haven line before turning south for New York.
I realize this plan may never come to be at all - I'd guess it's likely that it won't. But why would the proposal call for this roundabout routing?
Dan: If ever it were to be built it would most definitely connect to the Hudson Line thereby providing direct service to GCT for people west of the Hudson. However there is a great potential for east-west traffic from Rye through White Plains into Rockland County. Just look at the daily traffic jam on the I-287 corridor.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In case you ever wondered....
Cut and paste the following into your browser"
http://www.networksolutions.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois/?STRING=metropolitan+transportation&x=36&y=3
and you will get a listing of the domain names the MTA has registered, plus a few extras. A few points of interest:
A number of companies analyze listings such as this to try to figure out new lines of business an organization is interested in.
I notice a number of misspellings, such as:
BATTERRYTUNNEL.COM
Some companies will intentionally register misspellings, yet the correct spelling is not registered.
Also interesting is what is missing: LIRR.ORG. This is registered to The Long Island Rail Road Company, of course.
This is interesting. I wonder why I've been able to get away with nycsubway.org (and someone else has nycsubway.com). You think this would have been high on their list of Things That Annoy Them And Must Be Quashed, Consumed, Or Taken Over.
The MTA also has "HOLLANTUNNEL.NET/ORG/COM" (spelled incorrectly) and the Holland Tunnel isn't even an MTA property. If I were the Port Authority I'd be pissed off on principle. :)
-Dave
< The MTA also has "HOLLANTUNNEL.NET/ORG/COM" (spelled incorrectly) and the Holland Tunnel isn't even an MTA property. If I were the Port Authority I'd be pissed off on principle. :) >
Suddenly I get it!! The MTA is going to secretly build the Hollan Tunnel, named after Jason H. Hollan, the first person to try to charge a Cafe au Lait on his EZ-Pass!
It will be near the Holland Tunnel, and when it opens, NYC DOT will quietly circulate the city and paint out the "D" on the Holland Tunnel signs, and redirect the arrows to point to the HOLLAN Tunnel.
Then the NY MTA will have its own trans-Hudson cash cow. No longer will we have to fight New Jersey for Port Authority $$$. And you heard about it on SubTalk first!
Coming soon: the Linkin Tunnel and the Jorge Washington Bridge.
That reminds me of a social studies test our teacher gave us once in fifth grade. We were spending some time on New Jersey, and the Holland and Lincoln Tunnels came up, along with the Port Authority.
Anyway, the question in particular was, "The Holland and Lincoln Tunnels were built by ________." The correct answer was the Port Authority. Some kid put down John Holland and Abraham Lincoln. Our teacher was trying really hard to keep the sarcasm out of her voice when she told the class about it. It's a good thing the GWB wasn't part of that question. Otherwise, that same kid would have put down George Washington, no doubt.
Actually, the Holland Tunnel was built by "a coalition of the New York State Bridge and Tunnel Commission and the New Jersey Interstate Bridge and Tunnel Commission" (see http://www.nycroads.com/crossings/holland/). The Port Authority took it over several years after it was built. This is surely not the first time a fifth-grade teacher has been known to impart incorrect information.
Very true. This particular teacher even got Alaska and Hawaii reversed in terms of the order in which they became states. She also never could get my last name right, but that's another story for another time.
P. S. I stand corrected.
Here's something that annooys me Dave. I have repeatedly E-Maile you and others in your railroaders club trying in inquire about your org-
anization. I am an old subway rat and usually spend my time in New York riding the subway. I would appreciate a reply of how to join your club and information on fan trips. I notice that those trips carry the old numbers of the subway trains. I have also inquired when
these numbers changed to letters and have gotten no reponse from you,
or Testagrose, or that lady, whose name I can't remember. This time
let me know.
nycsubway.org isn't a "club" where you have to join or pay dues or anything. Everyone's welcome to participate in Subtalk discussions and view other parts of the site. As far as the fan trips are concerned, there's now a link at the top of the Subtalk section where upcoming events are discussed.
Fred, as far as formally organized trips are concerned, there are two organizations that have sponsored trips on the NYC subway in recent years: the Electric Railroader's Association and the New York Transit Museum. Dave is just another rabid subfan like the rest of us, except he happens to run a wonderful website and BBS. Other groups sponsor fantrips elsewhere; Dave maintains a link to some of them from the Transfer Station page of this website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Fred,
We're not an organization to join and the train trips you're thinking of are run by the New York Transit Museum, not by us. www.nycsubway.org is just a railfan-created web site. I'm pretty sure I've told you this in email. Contact the NY Transit Museum at 718-243-8601 for information on fan trips in the historic train equipment. We (meaning a loose group of people who contribute to SubTalk - this bulletin board) have started to organize adhoc field trips to see various things but we don't and probably won't organize a real fan trip in the usual sense of the term. If you are looking to join a NYC Subway oriented group try the New York Division of the Electric Railroader's Association; their web site is: http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era/. There is also the Urban Transit Club, which I don't know anything about, but they have a web page at: http://members.aol.com/glenn6398/.
I hope you enjoy the web site-- but you're looking in the wrong place if you want fan trips and to be a member of some club or organization.
-Dave
Dave: I stand corrected. Thanks for setting me straight. I'm taking down the numbers you sent me. I will contact them. You may not believe this but I spend more time on the nycsubway than all of my other bookmarks put together. Those photos are great. Is there a
place I can purchase them? I plan on going to the subway museum this
summer. Thanks for your response. For some reason I never received your earlier reply. Thanks again.
One more thing, Fred. The answer to "when the numbers changed to letters" is in the Subway FAQ (FAQ standing for "Frequently Asked Questions")
It's under Part II- Operations subsection "1 - Route Color/Names; What's the History of the Letters and Numbers". Check it out.
Also, I maintain a short list of Upcoming Subway/Transit Events that might give you some more pointers to find fan trips and clubs/museums to join.
-Dave
LIRR.ORG mirrors the offical MTA site. I use it all the time, easier to remember then the ny.dot.nyc.dot.dot.dot whatever....
< LIRR.ORG mirrors the offical MTA site. I use it all the time, easier to remember then the ny.dot.nyc.dot.dot.dot whatever.... >
Probably doesn't even mirror. NYCT.ORG and LIRR.ORG resolve to the same IP address, and I suspect that other URLs, such as www.mta.nyc.ny.us are forwards, or vice versa.
What is interesting is that all the now 'obsolete' abbreviations such as nycta.org and mabstoa.org arent in the MTA's domain.....
As of the time I wrote this message (1:38AM), I just got through listening to WLTW 106.7FM here in NYC. To my surprise, the disc jockey (female personality) was advertising the Shore Line Trolley Museum in East Haven. That caught me off guard! The radio personality had nothing but good words for the Museum...
My question to representatives of the Museums here, is why don't you folks consider advertising in the Media to promote all of these places and bring in that much needed $? Is it advantageous to utilize advertising as a means of targeting the general audience?
-Constantine
Here in Central NY, the Adirondack Scenic Railroad advertises extensively on radio and TV. Of course the ASRR is probably the most financially successful tourist line in history. so they have the BUCK$ it takes to get more BUCK$
Does NYC use Center layover tracks? or just sideings used to hold trains during midday. if so how do crews get out of the trains and get back to their yard?
Zack: I assume that you are talking about Metro-North's Harlem and Hudson Line. MN doesn't normally use center layup tracks for midday storage of equiptment except for maybe a relatively quick turnaround say for the Dover Plains Shuttle which occupies the main for about 20/30 mins at Dover Plains but puts into the Put Junction Yard at the Brewster end. Much of the midday storage takes place at Grand Central either on the lower level platforms to facilitate car cleaning or in the underground storage yards on both levels. Some equiptment will deadhead to Harmon to have the toilets pumped out.
Also MN maintains a fairly high level of midday service so a great deal of the equiptment stays in motion.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In the NY Times Metro Section, page B1, about President Clinton at the General Post Office at 33rd Street and 8th Ave into transforming it into the new Pennsylvania Station, Mayor Giuliani boycotted the ceremony, disparaging both the cost and the scope of a project that has gathered wide support among NY political and civic leaders.
After the good people read the article, your excellent thoughts are most welcome as always.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
This day of this article in the NY Times is Thursday May 20.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Also you can find these articles in the NY Post Thursday May 20 page 7 and the NY Daily News Thursday May 20 pages 26 and 27.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd Bronx.
This new Penn Station project is nice enough, but there are many other improvements that could be accomplished for the same amount of money and which would serve far more people.
Frankly, i think the only way you can improve the current Penn station is to demolish it, MSG, and everything above it, and start from scratch. no matter what amtrak does, the current one will always be an eyesore, though that new blue floorinmg they have by that ad for Bloomberg TV sure is cool :P BTW - WHAT is the point of the billboard? You can't watch it, because there's no sound, and it's not CC'd, so you can't read it....
Quite frankly, the original Penn Station never should have been torn down, IMHO. Unfortunately, that's water under the bridge now.
If this president is comig to NYC with government money to build a new Penn Station, it's likely because his wife stands to make a score on the real estate for it. Or maybe she has already sold the old Penn Station to China for a new Embassy.
Be honest, who do you see with this clown these days anyway? Democrat and Republican alike are steering clear of Slick Will. Think back, when was the last time the House and Senate members came down to the White House for a photo opt and to show their support? He may have won the removal from office battle, but he is damaged goods from hear on out. Nobody wants to be seen with this guy; however, they will take the money he raises, now matter how he raises it!
I know a lot of people are down on Mayor Rudolph. My question is: "Would you like to go back to the crime, dirt, etc. you had when Mayor Dinkins was in control?" Friends of mine living in NYC do confide that the city is a better place today than it was four years ago.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim: You can say it double for me when it comes to that pathetic creep of our President. What a moral degenerate. I sure hope New Yorkers have more sense than to elect Hillary the Carpetbagger to the
Senate. New York is still a great state and should have a New Yorker representing it and not some Arkansan---or whatever she is.
I completely agree. The mayor has shown once again that he places integrety over political expedience. I just hope that when the Clinton's leave the White House, someone counts the silverware and dishes.
New York City backed Clinton early, but he has felt free to shaft us because he knows the majority will vote Democratic no matter what, and that Republicans would rather suck the city dry than compete for votes. The fact that people are seriously considering Hillary for Senate proves he was right.
Can't be a Democrat or a Republican when you know what I know, and live where I live.
[New York City backed Clinton early, but he has felt free to shaft us because he knows the majority will vote Democratic no matter what, and that Republicans would rather suck the city dry than compete for votes. The fact that people are seriously considering Hillary for Senate proves he was right.]
But Larry, the people of NYC would rather die that vote anything but what the Democratic party puts up to run.
Mr. Slick Willy fooled me the first time; however, by the end of the second year, I wouldn't make the mistake again! Voters make mistakes, but we are supposed to learn from those mistakes. Anyone who backs this administration I ask one question: "What has this adminstration done for you?" And don't give me the economy stupid, that is all Wizzard Greenspan's doings, not Mr. Bill.
Voting for a candidate that you know can't/won't deliever just because he/she is a Democrat just doesn't make sense to me. Can't or doesn't anyone in NYC reason or think objectively when they enter the voting booth?
Look at me talking, the good people of Chicago wouldn't unseat King Richard if Jesus Christ himself was running for the job.
Jim K.
Chicago
Yeah, and don't forget Washington, D.C. where they RE-ELECTED a CONFESSED crack fiend to the Mayor's Office!!
Is America GREAT or what? WHAT A COUNTRY!
[Yeah, and don't forget Washington, D.C. where they RE-ELECTED a CONFESSED crack fiend to the Mayor's Office!!]
As Marion Barry would say, "Da bitch made me do it"! Could "da bitch" have that much control?
Jim K.
Chicago
"Da bi--h" was his crack pipe!
Can't just blame the cities for voting for nasty Dems who rip them off. Why does Nassau keep voting for Republicans when the county is broke and so many have gone to jail? Opps, I forget the head of the Nassau Dems is going to jail too.
Hey, Larry, that's why the Labor Party and Working Families Parties are getting their acts together for the next millenium.
We're going into a new century and it's about time we had serious alternatives to the Dems and the Repubs. We keep doing this flip-flop every four years and either we get totally out-of-touch nimcompoops like George Bush or Ronnie Reagen or a lying shiftless snake like 'Wild' Bill Clinton.
I know some people who are trying to include both the LP and WFP on the next citywide election ballots. I believe Sal Albanese from Bensonhurst is associated with the Working Families Party, and might be their candidate for the next go-round at the Mayor's Office.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
Isn't this thread somewhat off the purpose of Subtalk? That some of us like neither Slick Willy Clinton nor Benito Giuliani seems rather irrelevant.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I guess the relevance is lost; however, the thread started out that Rudy Giuliani was a jerk because he didn't show up the President's photo opt appearance at Penn Station. And I felt that Clinton was a jerk because he didn't have anything to do with getting the money for Penn Station. Senator Pothole and Monyahan were insturmental in getting funding.
Then it just went on from there.
I really have NO BUSINESS saying anything about NYC politics, as we have enough of our own in Chicago.
Jim K.
Chicago
Now, I understand your politics -- your from Chicago, Dirty Democrat capitol. BTW, Jim what's the latest on the CTA Blue Line (Cermak) branch.
[Now, I understand your politics -- your from Chicago, Dirty Democrat capitol.]
Actually I'm not from Chicago. I was born and raised in Montgomery County just outside of Philadelphia.
And yes, I'm one of four registered Republicans in the 44th Ward in Chicago. AND, that's the rest of the story!
Jim K.
Chicago
[BTW, Jim what's the latest on the CTA Blue Line (Cermak) branch.]
It is sad to report, but it is looking like the chances are good that the entire branch could be shut down before it falls down. There has been quite a bit of opposition expressed by the neighborhoods that it serves; however, the Hispanics don't seem to have the clout that the the black population along the Lake Street and South Side Mainline had when CTA was forced to rebuilt the Green Line.
The story is that federal money is commited for the rebuilding of the Douglas Branch of the Blue line and rebuilding of the Ravenswood Line to allow 8-car trains. The bad news is that the state isn't coming up with their part of the pie. If the state doesn't kick-in, then the federal money goes back to Washington and is "re-apportioned" elsewhere.
In my estimation, it is a 60-40 chance in favor of abandonment. The CTA has instituted express bus service (X-21) on Cermak for the ex-train riders on the weekends. That route could become permanent daily.
Jim K.
Chicago
Oh, Well Sometime I'll tell Sub Talk about the significance of the Douglas line to my marriage when I get the COURAGE to do so. And Jim-- FOUR Republicans, you could hold a caucus at a card table :-)
[And Jim-- FOUR Republicans, you could hold a caucus at a card table :-)]
John - I live in Lakeview, part of the great area of "Lakefront Liberals". When I go to vote, there are 12 voting stands for Democrats and 1 stand hidden in the corner for the Republicans. It is rather dusty everytime I've used it.
What can I say? I enjoy living in Chicago and make allowances.
Jim K.
Chicago
The Illinios House and Senate just approved yesterday the Illinois first Plan which gives the CTA 2.2 Billion dollars to use for the Douglas L renovation and the brown line Ravenswood projects.
The CTA will proabaly wait until Monday, atleast, to announce when the projects will begin.
The money will also fund other projects like replacing non-airconditioned busses and bridge replacement on the Purple Line in Evanston.
I'm very excited that they finally passed this. It has been 15 years since public tranist in Illinois has received funding.
Bottom line, The CTA Administration is new and fought long and hard to get this money and they deserve it. Also, Governor Ryan acually does care about Public Tranist unlike our last Governer Jim Edgar
BJ
Perhaps someone equated the relative prosperity of NY an Chicago with relative investment in transit. When Chicago invested more, it did better, but when NY invested more it did better. Hope we will follow Chicago's lead.
The modern day model of development following transit investment was Washington DC where neighborhoods bloomed around stations.
The blue line in chicago had simmilar experience around cumberland and other blue line extension stops.
The CTA Must generate 50% of revenues from the fare box so increaded ridership like the 1.88% increase in "L" riders and .75 % increase in bus ridership for 1998 ofer 97, reversing a spell of ridership decreases is a good sign.
MTA trains saw riders up 7.71% for 98 over 97 and bus ridership was up 15.95% The metro cards work to make the systems more effective. I tink Chicago will be up higher this year with a full year of metrocards in effect.
Nothing sells the need to improve capital plant better than ridership increases. It makes the system seem so much more effective.
here are some other comparisons
MTA Long Island bus 5.86%
" " " RR 2.07%
" Metro North 3.79%
MTA New York City 9.74% All modes
MTA Staten Island RR -2.99%
Port Authority of NY 3.88%
& NJ
Westchester County .86%
CTA All Modes 1.07
METRA 5.91%
Pace 3.89%
Total USA 4.60%
Total Canada (Reporting) 1.63%
(APTA fourth Quarter 1998)
The modern day model of development following transit investment was Washington DC where neighborhoods bloomed around stations.
The blue line in chicago had simmilar experience around cumberland and other blue line extension stops.
The CTA Must generate 50% of revenues from the fare box so increaded ridership like the 1.88% increase in "L" riders and .75 % increase in bus ridership for 1998 ofer 97, reversing a spell of ridership decreases is a good sign.
MTA trains saw riders up 7.71% for 98 over 97 and bus ridership was up 15.95% The metro cards work to make the systems more effective. I tink Chicago will be up higher this year with a full year of metrocards in effect.
Nothing sells the need to improve capital plant better than ridership increases. It makes the system seem so much more effective.
here are some other comparisons
MTA Long Island bus 5.86%
" " " RR 2.07%
" Metro North 3.79%
MTA New York City 9.74% All modes
MTA Staten Island RR -2.99%
Port Authority of NY 3.88%
& NJ
Westchester County .86%
CTA All Modes 1.07
METRA 5.91%
Pace 3.89%
Total USA 4.60%
Total Canada (Reporting) 1.63%
(APTA fourth Quarter 1998)
[The Illinios House and Senate just approved yesterday the Illinois first Plan which gives the CTA 2.2 Billion dollars to use for the Douglas L renovation and the brown line Ravenswood projects.]
This is great news. I very happy to hear positive instead of negative with the CTA. I am NOT looking forward to the Brown line project, as I'm a daily rider. I'm hoping they don't shut down the line for a year or two.
CTA should be accountable for the money it gets though. They should be measured in terms of ridership. Good service equals good ridership. Federal, state and local money SHOULD NOT be automatic. CTA shouldn't expect increasing subsidies when their ridership is decreasing.
Again, thanks for the good news BJ.
Jim K.
Chicago
2.2 Billion, Yegad, Thatsa lotta pizza! Yes, Jim the financial accountability shoud be VERY TIGHT on this one. Waste is the enemy of good policy. that's enough to fund all of Amtrak's operating subsidy for several years.
[2.2 Billion, Yegad, Thatsa lotta pizza! Yes, Jim the financial accountability shoud be VERY TIGHT on this one. Waste is the enemy of good policy. that's enough to fund all of Amtrak's operating subsidy for several years.]
The $2.2 billion that was approved by the IL state senate and congress is for a 5-year multi project plan. Remember the MTA 5-year plan a few years back when they rebuilt every rail car in site and purchased more than a few hundred more?
The State's portion is part of our new Governor George Ryan's rebuilding Illinois program. Part of this is going for IL's portion to rebuild Douglas Park and Ravenswood, the big chunk will come from the Federal Government.
Also, the money will be used for rebuilding 'L' stations (say good-bye to State & Lake 'L' station), rebuilding the entire 2600 series fleet, replace non-airconditioned buses (460 from 1983), and other projects.
Yes, it is a big chunk of change. My hope that none of the money is squandered on silly ideas like changing the bus numbering system so "out of towners" aren't confused. I guess it's OK to confuse the residents as long as many visitors, who flock onto the CTA, can understand the system.
Jim K.
Chicago
As a one-time Chicagoland resident I am pleased that the Douglas and Ravenswood work will be done. As to waste, please remember the purpose of government is to extort money from the disenfranchised and channel it to the supporters of the current regime. And as to Republicans who believe in 'publicly funded' mass transit, I smile.
One of you mentioned concern that the CTA will shut down the Brown Line for 2 years while the renovation on it is performed.
They specifically have already said they will keep the The Douglas and Ravenswood open during renovations.
The only way I could think the Douglas could stay open is with one track service while the other track is torn down, new structure put up and the new track put in place. Then tear down the other old track while one track service is offered on the new track.
It will be very interesting to see how they will reconstruct the junction will the Congress line in the middle of the Eisenhower Expressway without disturbing service on either of the lines.
I guess it will be possible to tear down 1/2 of the structure while service is operating on the other 1/2. If you look at the way the Douglas structure is, it looks like there are two steal bars, whith one supporting one track and the other supporting the other track.
I guess they could also reconstruct one platform while service is offered in both directions on the other one during one track service.
All of the Elevated stations are two outside platforms except for Pulaski and the three ground level stations.
Pulaski would have to be closed for platform reconstruction and so would Kildare on ground level.
Cicero was reconstructed 20 some years ago and will remain. The 54th Terminal has two platforms, so they could utilize that, though they are suppost to replace it with only one.
These are just my though on how the renovation will be performed, besides 54th/Cermak which I read about on the CTA site some time ago, I would like to hear what your thoughts are.
BJ
That depends on who your friends are: Wall Street workers and real estate big shoots? If they work in semi-skilled or blue-collar jobs their analysis might differ.
Granted the crime level is down, but if you did your homework you'd notice that crime is down NATIONWIDE! It is not something that is unique to New York. Are you trying to say that Rudy G. is responsible for that too!
[Granted the crime level is down, but if you did your homework you'd notice that crime is down NATIONWIDE! It is not something that is unique to New York. Are you trying to say that Rudy G. is responsible for that too!]
I'm saying, do you want to go back to the Dinkins days? The answer for NYC is they probably do not. NYC voters had their chance to unseat Mayor Rudolph, and what did they do?
Jim, there really was no real alternative to Rudy G. in the last Mayoral election. And besides, he really didn't become the egotistical paranoid that he now is until rather recently. Had his bad attitude and "my way or the highway" shown themselves earlier, I can bet that he would have been out on his butt cheeks. Unfortunately, there were only a handful of political "lightweights" that went up against him. The best of the lot was current City Council Speaker Peter Vallone -- a man of better principals and who can actually go toe-to-toe with Rudy, but just did not have the name recognition (and as is the case in the 90s -- not enough duckets) to beat Hizzonner.
As for David Dinkins: I always felt he suffered from the "Jimmy Carter Syndrome" -- a nice guy at heart, but not up for the job he was elected to do.
Doug aka BMTman
Also, despite the fact that Giuliani's competitors were lightweights, he didn't win by a particularly large margin. Most who considered running against were too afraid to actually do it. Therefore, we're stuck with what we have for now.
Fran
Giuliani proves the value of term limits. He's done a lot of good things, but we can only stand so much of him.
If only we had term limits at the state level.
Mr. Ego (AKA Giuliani) snubs someone. The same Giuliani who can do no wrong and is always right. Yeah! He's good for NYC - as long as you're not a minority.
A question about the new Penn Station is this:
The station is supposed to be completed around 2003. Amtrak is supposed to be off Federal operating assistance after 2002. Are there any contingency plans to operate the Northeast corridor (and that expensive new Acela equipment) if the national corporation has to be liquidated? I believe it is possible that there are staff at Amtrak and the state DOTs working on this, but they certainly haven't leaked any information about it.
Reasons why Giuliani didnt show up for the ceremony:
1] It Wasn't His Idea..Rudy only recognizes HIS projects and accomplishments...
2] He wont be around when its done..so why bother? Plus, of course..see #1
3] It benefits those life sucking, city service using,non-voting
Commuters..God Forbid most of whom are from New Jersey
4] You REALLY expected to him to show up???????????
It was not Rudy's idea. Plus the commuter tax got repealed, so he sure as hell couldn't give a rat's a--.
I think that says it all.
Doug aka BMTman
Whether or not the Penn Station project is worth it is a matter of debate. But the Feds aren't offering any money for the things Subtalkers want. Any they have paid for new stations in Washington, Philly and who knows where else. Why not us?
[Whether or not the Penn Station project is worth it is a matter of debate. But the Feds aren't offering any money for the things Subtalkers want. Any they have paid for new stations in Washington, Philly and who knows where else. Why not us?]
You're problems compounded when you changed Senator Pothole for Senator "Not a Clue" back in November. NY will do it again if Ms. Rodham decides to run to fill the seat vacated by the Honorable Daniel Patrick Moynahan. And you'll get what you voted for, people who are like Robin Hood, robbing from the rich and distributing to the poor!
At least the voters in IL were smart enough to dump Sen. Carol Mosley Braun before she could do anymore damage.
Jim K.
Chicago
In the Syracuse area we have a Republican congressman (Jim Walsh, R26). Last month when HUD Secretary Andrew Cuomo came to Syracuse with PORKBUCK$, The Congressman was right there to share in the photo ops and get some of the credit for the pork. OK I didn't vote for Walsh, However at least he shows that he is a bigger man than "Hizzoner" and doesn't let politics get in the way of badly needed funding for his constituents (And Walsh was an Impeachment Manager). As for the pork, it's better spent here than down south.
Where are the brakes of the R-44 located? On the Brightliners and Redbirds, you could see the air cylinder and the shoe. On the R-44s, the brake shoes can't be seen.
On some NJT Comets, there is a small silver disk located on the axle.
Anyone know what that is for? Is that part of the braking system, so
that they could save the wheels from wear?
"On some NJT Comets, there is a small silver disk located on the axle. Anyone know what that is for? Is that part of the braking system, so that they could save the wheels from wear?"
That is the disc brake rotor. Look under Amtrak's Amfleet cars and you will see the same thing -- two per axle.
WMATA trains in DC are the same Disk brakes work well and are designed for braking helping wheels last longer to do what they are designed for
Didn't the Budd Company of Philadelphia pioneer and patent disc brakes? I think the first application was on the PRR Keystone equipment train constructed in the mid-1950's.
I know that the Silverliner II, Budd 1963, cars were delivered with "outboard" disc brakes. These are the ones that are part of the wheel. It was easy for a crew memeber to perform a terminal brake test with the Silvers, because you could watch the external brakes clasp the disc. With the older equipment you needed to check piston travel and shoes.
The PRR changed their disc brakes for tread brakes early on; however, the RDG keep the disc brakes on their cars and they were only replaced with tread brakes when the commuter tunnel joined the two fleets together. The RDG operated GE Silverliners in the same consist with Budd Silverliners, thereby mixing braking systems. Engineers told me that the Budd Silvers were "quick release" and tended to be held back by GE cars with the tread brakes when starting a mixed consist train.
There are also "inboard" disc brakes that have the disc mounted as part of the axle.
Jim K.
Chicago
Does anyone have a rundown of the Silverliner series, delievery dates, general data, etc?
Cars intended for use on PRR/PC Routes
Silverliner I 246-250 x PC 294-298, xPRR 150-154, built by Budd 1958
Silverliner II 251-269, Budd 1963
Silverliner III 220-239, St Louis, 1968
Silverliner IV 270-303, GE and AVCO 1974
Silverliner IV 304-399, GE and AVCO 1975
Cars intended for use on RDGRR Routes
Silverliner II 9001-9017, Budd and GE 1963
Silverliner IV 9018-9031, ,GE and AVCO 1974
Silverliner IV 101-188, GE and AVCo 1975 and 1976
Note that by 1975 it was clear that PC and RDGRR would be merged into
Conrail so the distinctions became a moot point.
Certain units have lately been receiving an upgrade and renumbered into a new series. I don't have this info to hand at the moment but perhaps some of those knowledgeable about this could help.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[Certain units have lately been receiving an upgrade and renumbered into a new series. I don't have this info to hand at the moment but perhaps some of those knowledgeable about this could help.
Larry,RedbirdR33]
Larry, very good for "going from memory"; however, two small points.
First, you forgot PRR 201-219, Budd 1963. These 19 cars, together with the 19 cars (250-269) made up the 38 cars delivered to PRR. The RDG got 17, for a total of 55 Pioneer III cars purchased by the City of Philadelphia for use on SEPACT, later SEPTA.
Secondly, the series 9001-9017, were build by Budd, electrical equipment supplied by GE. Both the PRR & RDG cars were identical, except, the 250-259 series were equipped with restrooms.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim: Your right. Thanks for catching that. The SEPTA numbering system is confusing since the newest cars,IV's are numbered above and below some of the older ones.
I am surprised that SEPTA never rationalized their numbering series as there is quite a bit of duplication throughout their system.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[I am surprised that SEPTA never rationalized their numbering series as there is quite a bit of duplication throughout their system.]
Rational and SEPTA in the same sentence "does not compute"! You still did a great job Larry!
The 17 Budd Silvers #'d 9001-9017, delievered in 1963, were my favorites on the Reading Company MU fleet. That is, after the "old Green MU's". The newer GE built cars, singles and pairs, just didn't do it for me. They were far too sophisticated for the Reading Company's lines. The Budd cars were pure and simple with no fancy gadgets. I remember the first time I saw a pair of them at Lansdale, PA. I watched the trainman, as he did the terminal brake test from the ground, and was amazed at the loud brake exhaust sound coming from the cars and the workings of the disc brakes. This was very heady stuff for a twelve year old.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim: Thank you. What I would like to see is a comparison of the Silverliner IV's and the Jersey Arrow III as externally they are quite similar.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Budd originated type CFM (C-frame mounted)disc brakes about 1950 A later development was the TFM (truck frame mounted) brake. Wabco purchased these designs and today markets the TFM brake and replacement parts.
R-44s have package brake units or Tread Brake Units. So do all 75 foot cars as do some R42s and all R-62/62A. The TBU sits inside of the wheel with one brake shoe. Instead of clasping the wheel between two shoes, the TBU forces the brake shoe against the wheel tread. Pressures used on TBUs are double the pressures used in a clasp brake arrangement.
Ok, Steve handled the TA portion of that, so here's the RR part.
On CometII coaches operated on the corridor, the cars are limited to 90MPH because of their brakes. The traditional shoe on wheel tread system serves fine up to 80 or 90. At speeds above that, the excessive heat generated causes the wheels to crack. Small ones to be sure, but dangerous none the less. A particular complaint of engineers is that those coaces will experience brake fade if aplications of more than a 10PSI reduction of Brake Pipe is made. I have seen this. When the cab signal code drops, a heavy application of the brakes is reqired. The brakes can actually be felt to give after a few seconds. Even though the air guage needles remain steady. Standing on a platform, or viewing from a passing train, the clouds of composition brake shoe dust is readily visible to the naked eye.
Thank God, the spacing formula for the signals is based on freight train stopping distances.
Before rebuilding, the ArrowIII MU's had no dynamic, and suffered this problem. I remember having to change brake shoes once a day, Train would make just ONE round trip, Trenton to NY Penn sometimes! I'm glad for those inboard bearing trucks, not the buckeye's the TA uses. Amazing how Flinstone the TA can be with some things that should have been changed years ago, but rush blindly into other untested technology.(CBTC)
NJT, when ordering the CometIII coaches decided to remedy this like Amtrak had with the Amfleet coaches. Disk brakes act in concert with the tread units to stop. The tread units operate at a much lower pressure on these cars. The disks shed heat quickly, eliminating the fade problem. And Comet III and IV cars now have speed limits of 100MPH.
ALP44 Locomotives use a variation of this. The Caliper acts on the rim of the wheel, instead of the tread. But they primarily use dynamic.
"At speeds above that, the excessive heat generated causes the wheels to crack. Small ones to be sure, but dangerous none the less."
The LIRR uses TBUs also. While they are required to operate with 100% braking, some cars 'lose their dynamic brake' after leaving the yard. The air brake for that car is equivalent but since the M-1s and M-3s operate at or near 80 MPH, stopping with only pneumatic brakes causes extremely hot brakes and wheels - the odor of which is unmistakable. The result of which are small cracks on the wheels. These cracks fall into two catagories, thermal cracks and heat checks. The former are dangerous and in most cases the wheel must be condemned. It the latter, there is no operational significance. Unfortunately, they look remarkably similar and one is often mistaken for the other. Only real experts can tell them apart so many wheels are condemned unnecessarilly.
The m-2s on the New haven line do that too - I was once on one where a passenger asked the engineer what the smell was - apparently the first pair lost it's dynamics. They have a light that flashes when a car is dead in the set. I've been on a few trains with a number of dead cars, that nonetheless were able to hit 80+
We were taught to BCO that truck(the trucks have separate BCO's) and tap the suspect wheel with a hammer. A true and bright ring was a good wheel. A dull clunk ussually indicated a crack. It's also a good way to check for applied brakes.
Steve, don't confuse the smell with a BO car. The M cars have steep gears. The dynamic fades out at 15 MPH. When it rains, the smell is particularly noticable. Then again, if you hear a squeal at 60......
"When it rains, the smell is particularly noticable."
Yes, I know that the smell can show up in wet weather on perfectly ok cars.
"A true and bright ring was a good wheel. A dull clunk ussually indicated a crack."
That used to be the way but with the use of ring-damped wheels, that's out the window. Neither thermal cracks or heat checks will affect the way a wheel rings anyway.
By the way, on the M-3s you can tell whether the dynamic brake is workig in that car. just watch the yellow light above the cab door. If it's lit throughout the entire braking operation, one of two things is wrong. 1) There's no dynamic brake or 2) There's no lockout.
When I went through NJT that was the level of sophistication they had. So we tapped.
How long they using those ring damped wheels?
And I didn't know that about the M3's. I only got a cursory two day quickie on the M.U.'s from NY&A.
ArrowIII's don't have that. It's just the typical air on/off lights.
Well, we've been using 'ring damped wheels since 1990. Next time you are in the yard, look at an R-46 wheel. On the inside of the tread, is a stainless steel ring or hoop pressed into the tread. I've noticed that the LIRR has also started to use corrugated wheels on their overhauls, to reduce weight.
Didn't we try them too? I seem to remember some controversy on the subject.
And keep that signal dolley thing quiet. It's the only train in the system that's still fun to operate! Full power and brakes. The stuff only found in memories, it lives on in that three car set. Shhh.
We are using corrrugated ring-damped wheels to reduce weight and noise.
One recent afternoon, I was watching the PM LIRR rush from Woodside. It is astounding as to the amount of spotted wheels on the M1 fleet. Without exaggeration, at least half of their M1's need a wheel truing! I heard very few quiet ones, and those had new wheels and/or trucks. It was a pleasure to see a diesel hauled train pass by, evey one had round wheels!
A state audit will show exactly that. There are 2 primary culprits. First is the number of cars running without dynamic brake or air over dynamic, making them more prone to skidding. Second is the sloppiness of the automatic speed control. If a train loses it's speed code at high speed, from the way I understand the system, the engineer must reduce the speed immediately. If he goes from code 80 to code 0, there is no way he can reduce fast enough so the train goes into emergency. A few of those and you have significant flats.
Steve, it don't quite work that way. Code flips are common enough. But when they happen they rarely last more than a few seconds. The engineer certainly has time to acknowledge the code change and apply service braking. More often than not, the code flip goes away on it's own. Acknowledging with the button or pedal is all that was required.
It's rare for the system to be screwed up so bad that it dumps. But it does happen. A lot of those flats I have to admit are conductors forgetting the hand brakes. I have seen that more than unwanted BIE's.
I do agree with your first primary culprit. That's got to be the biggest contributer to flats. And the ASC is responsible.
When the code drops, it requires that heavy service application. Whenever it rains....
I'm sure it don't work quite that way. As I said, I am no expert. I notice that the code flips and BIEs do take place more in wet weather. However, I was on a train that went BIE twice at MAS in rapid succession. After the first time, near Pinelawn, there were some nice flats. By the second time, going through Farmingdale, the wheels sounded like they were square. At that point the crew cut out the ASC but by then, it was too late.
When that happens, more often than not it's the speed sensor on the axle. It's sending fluctuating signals. The codes may also drop sometimes, but when they do, it's easy to overcome. The speed sensor's a pain cause then the ASC must be cut out. The cab signals will still display though. Now the trains limited to 60 mph, in 409 territory. That's where the wayside signals back up the ASC. In 410 territory, there must be an absolute block. Royal pain. The speed is only 40. 60, if the cab signals still display.
The singletrack by Pinelawn is all good running, so it's more than likely you had a bad speed sensor. The Arrows have two, for when that happens. The crew simply switches to the back up
Moving through interlockings atspeed is typically where most flips occur. Queens interlocking is famous for it. Fair on the NE corridor too.
If I remember correctly Amtrak deliberately installed a code drop North of Mattuchan to remind enginneers of the curve.
Yes, it's just west of the N. Elizabeth station. The code goes from MAS to 45. It goes back up after the train clears the curve.
I found some real brakes and have one question. While transfering the signal dolly from one yard to another over the Fulton St line, I noticed while stopping behind a red signal a loud schreech. When I checked the train in the yard upon curiousity, I found a real life A1 operating unit, J1 relay and cast iron brake shoes under 37371. Why hasn't the TA ruined (ooops, I mean "modified" this train as they have many others, including the revenue collection cars with J-14s? Also one car had it's original air compressor too.
I was not aware that the signal dolly had never been modified. By the way, for the purists among us, there is no J14 valve. The valve is actually a "J1.4-14 Relay Valve".
Yesterday, I was watching TV and a Tylenol commercial came on. I was watching and thought the background looked familiar. Sure enough, after I saw the arrivals/departures board and the WWII statue, I knew the announcer was in 30th Street Station.
Ok, so I spoke to a (quite nice) Septa rep today who told me that
despite repairs probably costing in the trillions (as a low estimate
:), it *might* be possible to charter the museum cars (1/166/1025)
of the Broad Street Subway. A 2/3 hour fantrip - would anyone be up
to riding below the Philly streets on some wicker seats? :)
-Lee
I'm sure lots of people would. The ERA is holding their national convention in Philly this year. Maybe Septa could capitalize on this as well as helping the ERA with their scheduled trips (which doesn't include any Broad St. trips).
-Dave
Does anyone know why the Manhattan Bridge is being shut down this weekend?
Will the "N" Train ( the Sea Beach) ever run over the Manhattan Bridge
again? I've been told no. What a bummer. That was a scenic part of
the trip.
Fred: I noticed that you are a fan of the Sea Beach Line. You may not be aware of it but the southbound express track E3 is out of service from 8 Av to King Highway and disconnected from the other tracks. The northbound express track E4 is being signalled for traffic in both directions and will be used as a test bed for new equiptment. With the work ongoing at the present time the Sea Beach cut resembles a trench on the Western Front.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Redbird 33. Thanks for the info. That will come in handy when I get to New York this summer. However, I'm not pleased by this info. It seems like all my pleasant memories of riding the Sea Beach out to both my grand parents' houses, and the trips to Coney Island are being
blurted by the destruction of this line. Now the train doesn't even go over the Manhattan Bridge. Maybe we should send a note to Guiliani and tell him that as a fellow former Brooklynite we don't like what is
happening to the Sea Beach. In fact, my password on my computer is SeaBeachN, and before it was SeaBeach4. Hope to hear from you again.
One more thing. Where does the 33 come in. My favorite number is 44, so maybe I should go by Fred44. Have a good one.
I assume the Redbird R33 means the IRT subway car model.
Redbirds are the nicknames for the old IRT carbon-steel cars on the 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7.
Many of them will be lost when the IRT's R-142's begin to arrive(we in Philly are losing our Budd cars on the MFSE to the, ahem, M-4's).
p.s.-There is an IND model car R-44(on the 'A' line).
P.S.- We're up to at least M-4 #1162.
Seems like any time I see train after train of Budd M-3's going west on Friday, I see higher numbered M-4's the next week and fewer Budds.
Coincidence?
I mentioned yesterday that I have an affinity for the N. I have to admit that my all-time favorite line is the A. I've ridden more A trains by far than any other train, especially A trains of R-10s, and my Jeep's license plates say 8AVEXP. So far, one person has guessed correctly what they mean in eight years. Not too many people in Denver are able to make the connection.
Dear Mr. Larry Littlefield:
They are doing inspection work on the Birgde. The D will operate
into two sections:
(1) 205th Street, Bronx to 34th Street-6th Avenue, Manhattan
(2) 34th Street-Broadway, Manhattan to Coney Island, Brooklyn
via Montague Street Tunnel
B Service will only run as a shuttle from 36th Street-4th Avenue,
Brooklyn to Coney Island, Brooklyn.
The South side of the Manhattan Bridge will be closed until
2003 for reconstruction. When the south side reopens, the N and Q
will most likely return to Broadway Express service.
James Li
So what train will be running between 57 St (or is it 21 St - Queensbridge, may be that is reason why the service is not resuming back to norma this weekend?) and 47 - 50 Sts?
per Station Bulletin #SD-190-99 :
the S will run between57/7th and 21/Queensbridge.
Another shuttle will run from Bway/Laffayette to Grand Street- Single track.
Normal B/Q resumes 12:30AM Monday.
(Q goes to 21 when it runs, the B when the Q does not run except late nights when the 6th ave shuttle runs
I was just wondering if the R-142s were still going to be delivered tomorrow as planned or has it been pushed back because of the derailment they had up in Vermont.Has there been any other articles in the paper since the one concerning the derailment?
How come between Hoyt and Nevins on the 2 and 3, there are timer signals? The signals were changed. It was straight green but now it is red and yellow signals. Is this due to construction between Atlantic and Franklin?????
The NYCT System has begun distributing new patches to every employee. If you want a sneak peek follow the link.
"http://www.geocities.com/baja/mesa/9449/fotos/newpatch.jpg">
Yes I got that patch last week. That adds one more to the to the collection. I wounder when the Transit Museum will sell these for $2 to $4 bucks a pop. They sold the Train Operators patch 1 Mouth after I was issued one.
is this going to be worn by NYCT employees? if so, then where on the shirt?
What relative of some higher up got paid a half million for the design?
What possible justification is there for such a waste of money?
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Oh, didn't you know? It comes in lieu of TWU's raise!
I will cut the patch in half since we aren't united with the buses.
I feel the new patch belongs in the same circular file as the safety awards that have been so graciously awarded.
Check it out Eric. I was refused one on Thursday and was told through the vine it was because I'm not a team player. By the way at the UMD meeting May 19 someone proposed we collect them and send them back to Reuiter with the letter and a request for a raise equivalent to the cost of the letters and patches instead. Unfortunately we didn't have a quorum so it wasn't a motion.
I'd be interested in knowing who denied you the patch (specifically). It was for all employees !!!! Whether you want it or not is another issue.
I never even saw one!(much elss get the Patch)! that is fine if it saves money. I was impressed by Reuter's thanks to all employees. I realize that they cost money and gladly waive mine if need be to save the $
I have an extra patch so there's no reason for you not to have one. Just let me know where and when you are working and I'll get it dropped off to you. Anyone who is as much of a team player as you should, at least, have the patch.
BTW This is what it looks like "http://www.geocities.com/baja/mesa/9449/fotos/newpatch.jpg>Patch
Well that link surely didn't work as planned. I fyou follow the URL, you can still see the patch.
Thanks Steve! Check your e-mail for the info.
Jim; I seem to recall that the Silverliner III earned the nickname "Lateliners"due to late delivery by St Louis. They had left hand controls. Cars 230-239 had two and two seating and I believe lavs for possible service to Harrisburg. I was on one about 12 years ago and the lavs were used for storage.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, you are correct. The "Lateliners" as you refer to them came to the PRR in 1967, I think (I'd have to look it up to be sure). They did indeed have the cab located on the left side of the car. Someone thought it would be a good idea so they could use the right side to load/unload passengers, but I don't know if they were used that way in service.
These cars were PRR cars, mixed with Silverliner II's in consists. They couldn't train with the Silverliner I's however.
I was much more familiar with the Reading Company equipment. I spent many hours riding RDG MU trips from Norritown to Reading Terminal and then back to Lansdale with a crew that I knew. I learned quite a bit of railroading and common sense in those years.
Jim K.
Chicago
The III's did arrive in '67 with the left-side engineer's stand. I don't think the front was ever used for passenger loading. Strangely enough, though, to maximize loading capability in the Commuter Tunnel, other trains use the left-side door opposite the engineer's stand for loading and unloading. I've never noticed whether the III's do this when the right-side door is at platform edge. I'll have to take note the next time I'm on Regional Rail.
According to my old friends at NY&A Rwy, TA has moved the first cars to Coney Island Overhaul, from ENY via the Bay Ridge Secondary of the LIRR.
Four R40's were sent with the SBK engines N1 and N2. A NY&A Rwy SW1001 locomotive pulled all six from the siding that connects the TA's Linden Yard to the Secondary, to the interchange that's alongside the Sea Beach line. From there the N1 and N2 did the rest of the work to 36th Street yard, and down the West End to the Coney Island Shops.
I'll try and get the info posted before hand next time.
To TPFKAMr.R46: you know I would greatly appreciate any snippets you could give us.
Thanks!
Doug aka BMTman
I saw this where i work and will be in papers and on the radio soon. I am giving the SubTalk folks a jump on this story. This is about the Subway in the country of Greece. A subway train zipped through a main section of Athen's Greece expand metro system today Friday May 20, in a clear sign the long-delayed project is nearing completion.
Completion of the new lines under Athens congested streets was a key element of the city's successful bid to host the 2004 Olympics.
The 4.8 mile trip from a northern suburb to Athens main Constitution Square took less than 10 minutes - a distance that can take up to 40 minutes by car during rush hour.
The section should be open by December 31, 1999. About 90 percent of the $2.2 billion metro expansion is complete.
Work on the 10.8 mile project started in 1992.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Correction on the date, it is Friday May 21 on the Greece Subway story.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
A new Continental card came out last month, howerver there are at least two:
- Don't Set Your Watch By Our Planes. Sometimes We're Early
- We Have To Put Up With Our Competitors. You Don't
That makes a total of six cards that they have issued.
Mr t__:^)
Dear Sir/Madam:
In the 1980s, all the single cars retired from passenger service,
and the subway cars built in "married pairs" were saved and rebuilt.
But in 1990, why were the R-27 cars all scrapped and not rebuilt?
In 1993, the R-30s were all replaced by the rebuilt subway cars that
are running today. Why did they scrapped the R-30s in 1993, instead
of rebuilding them like the R-26s, R-28s, R-29s, R-32s, R-33s, R-36s,
R-38s, R-40s, R-42s, R-44s and R-46s? What subway lines did the R-27s
and R-30s serve out their last days on?
James Li
There were several reasons the R-27/30s were retired.
1. A higher-that-desirable MDBF rate.
2. They could not be fitted with air conditioning. I believe it had to do with the fact that doing so would have increased their gross weight, which was high to begin with, to BMT standard proportions. It would have resulted in increased power usage and could have diminished performance.
The R-30s which were overhauled and painted Redbird red finished out their careers on the C. They did receive new controllers which were subsequently transplanted into the R-36s.
Too bad the weight that would have been gained by AC couldn't have been eliminated elsewhere, like replacing the ends/sides with a lighter grade steel? I suppose the re-trofitting in that regard would've been too time consuming and costly to institute on a fleet as large as the 27 & 30s.
Sad -- those were nice, die-hard cars. Short of like the Standards of the 1970s.
Doug aka BMTman
Dear Sir/Madam:
The Williamsburg Bridge reconstruction is now under way. What
kind of subway cars run on the J, M and Z Lines, now that the Bridge
is closed. I was very surprised to see some N trains of R-42s yester-
day when I rode into Manhattan. When normal service on the J, M and
Z lines resume in October 1999, what subway cars will run on the J, M
and Z lines? Will the R-42s on the N line return to the J, M and Z lines? Will the new R-143s arrive then?
James Li
James: I was over there on May 3 and here's what I observed; J-six R-42,L 8 R-42, M Myrtle 4 R-40, M Nassau-West End 8 R-42, S Nassau St 4-R-40M.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Dear Sir/Madam:
When the Williamsburg Bridge reopens, will they ever restore the
K on the Chrystie Street Cut between Essex Street and Broadway-
Lafayatte Streets? Do they use the Chrystie Street Cut for emergency
reroutes today?
James Li
As far as I know, the cut has only seen non-revenue service in recent years, and that very infrequently. (If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I went on a tour, last Fall, that included the Tower at Delancey, which controls the Chrystie Cut, that was the comment made.
(Oh what a lousy sentence !)
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for the confirmation. I missed that tour, unfortunately - maybe next fall, assuming Hizzoner doesn't block them again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I seem to recall a similar thread not too long ago, but it's unlikely that the Houston-to-Essex St. connection will ever see regular revenue service again. D trains used that connection during a weekend reroute in 1982 when the Manhattan Bridge was closed.
Other than a route from Rockaway Parkway via B'way-Brooklyn and then up Sixth Ave., there really isn't anyplace you can send a line via the Chrystie St./Delancy connection that would draw people away from other lines. Those coming in from Jamaica Ave. would head for the E and F to get to midtown, while the A would still be faster from East New York unless you run the Chrystie St. line express from East New York to Marcy Ave.
Outside of the reverse routing for the D when the Manhattan Bridge repairs are going on, the connection is now of little use and was pretty much a waste of funds that could have been spent somewhere else (like fixing the Manhattan Bridge back in the 60s before the problem got to where it is today)
That is the gist of my rush-hour "K" service (Orange signs) which will appear in the Fantasy maps Mike Adler and I are putting together for future publication.
Wayne
I wouldn't consider it a waste. On the mornings when the bridge was open, huge crowds would get off at Essex for the F. Both M and J trains then would run virtually empty to Broad St. and then through the Montague St river tube.(for M's)
Instead of running the J to Broad St. I'd send the J up sixth av. to 57/6. Watch the crowds then.
With advertising touting "Seats available" and express ALL the way. I mean not the B.S. express they run now, it could work. Skip stop from Jamaica to Eastern Parkway. Locals coming out of Atlantic Av. on the Canarsie line. They could go to Broad st. The arrangement at Atlantic looks as if it could support a terminal. Before they started tearing it all down, that is.
So instead the local could run all the way to canarsie. There would be a lot of cross platform traffic at eastern Parkway. Some service on the L the rest of the way would have to be reduced though. But it would be made up for in that those people would be getting trains that would be less crowded.
Your right that it could work -- if they ran it as a rush hour express. The original KK and K ran local from Marcy to Eastern Parkway, and it was just too slow to attract significant midtown traffic.
But if you run it as an exrpess, the people going downtown or coming home on the J will be unhappy unless they keep their express, so you would only have the Z serving local stations between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway, which people in those neighborhoods would protest (we're in NIMBY land now). Plus, during rush hour you would have four lines (OK, 3 1/2 lines) going over the Willie B -- the J, K, M and Z. Even after the track work, I don't know if the MTA can deal with that with the speeds set the way they are now.
Don't forget - the "Z" is really a "J" with an alternate sign to allow riders to tell which skip-stops it serves, so the "J" and "Z" though they carry different signs, are really one service with a split personality - therefore you have 2½ services over the bridge.
The "K" should start at Canarsie and run to either 57th St or beyond.
Wayne
Are you counting the J/Z as less than full service? Because with the M and any new K train, that would equal at least three full services during rush hour -- not impossible for the Willie B to handle, since the B/Q/D or the N/Q/B will be on one side of the Manhattan Bridge or the other for the far future (or evenutal collapse), but the slow bridge speeds, plus the merge at Marcy on the AM rush or at Essex on the PM rush will always be a bottleneck.
What I mean is the "J" and "Z" equal what was the old "QJ" in terms of how many trains operate during the peak period. The "QJ" also had skip stop service, but all trains were marked the same. Nowadays, you have some trains marked "J" and others marked "Z", basically serving the same route, but stopping at different stations. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Basically, they constitute the same service, call it #15, "QJ", Black "J", whatever.
Wayne
Actually the ridership is marginal between Myrtle and Eastern parkway, they would do fine. There is not that much riding between Broad and Essex to justify the service they provide now. Trust me there wouldn't be that much of an out cry if the J went up Sixth instead. The M would still be there. I'd have it run all day like the Q. Then like present J service the rest of the time. To the contrary, the would probably be praise. There are people who backtrack to Parsons, so they can get to midtown.
I'm not talking increasing service, only diverting it to where it will do more good. There might be a lot of passengers who would stay on the J all the way to midtown IF it were a true express, and went up Sixth.
And just because the map says there are three lines on the bridge doesn't mean it's fact. The J and the Z are really one line. Just some of the cars carry different signage.
And that bridge is not operated at capacity at all. It can handle more traffic.
"And that bridge is not operated at capacity at all. It can handle more traffic." I don't know about that. Before May 1, during the rush when the the J would be on a 10 minute headway, same for the Z, and the M on 8 minutes toward Manhattan in the PM rush. That is practically a train every 3 minutes. Even coming out of Manhattan, all 3 lines were on a 10 minute headway. That is still approx. 3 trains per 10 minutes. Even the E & F have a combined 2 1/2 minute headway during the rush. To make it simple, leave the J & M as is and put the Z up Sixth Ave. for rush hour service. But I see 2 problems: they must be pin-point on time at Essex St. so as to have alternate J/Z trains be skip stop, and two, where would you terminate the Z? 21 St. for now is OK, but what about when the Queens Plaza extension opens up? Would the TA have enough cars? I don't think so!
One thing I forgot to mention: Crew Costs. The TA would have to determine what to do with those crews to make an 8 hour day for a new seperate line on 2 shifts (AM & PM). A rush hour only line would not be productive as to crew utilization. Combing work programs on 2 lines just doesn't work. The TA tried this a number of years ago on the weekends on the B & N and it was a disaster. They have also done it on the G & R and the B & AA. If one line has a problem and your crew if turned mid route on one line, he can't be on his other line to make his next trip. For example: a number of years ago, I had a job that left Stillwell B and when I arrived at 57/6 I would deadhead to 168 St. for a trip on the AA. One nite I got rerouted to 57/7. Naturally, I had to take that train back to Stillwell B and my AA trip had to be abandoned.
As for car shortages, I was thinking to use all the L line R-42's when the new CBTC equipped cars show up.
Crews. As I said, it would run all day, like Q service.
I would have it run up Sixth, but as for terminals, I don't know. I'll have to think about it. 57/6 is a natrual, but with the access to Queens, it'd be a different story. Maybe Q to 57/7 and and Z via 63rd to Continental? How much can you shove up sixth?
Here is a thought to help Rush hour Brightoners, Z via Brighton local
then take over the current Broad St terminal on middays. J take over the B line. B line switches over to 71 Av. (Woops no Bridge but Maybe) Q via Broadway Express to 179 St
Yes, it was probably not the smartest use of the money. Anyone know what the reasoning was behind its construction?
Interestingly, it would be possible to run a 'K' train that includes most of the two previous (and very different) versions of 'K' trains into one. From Eastern Parkway, it would run via Broadway-Brooklyn and the Williamsburg Bridge, through the connection in question as far as West 4th St. (on the local track), then switch to the 8th Ave. line and continue as a local to 168th St. Like both previous versions, it would be represented by a 'K' in a blue circle (or diamond). No, I don't really expect to see such a train. I don't think it's a terribly practical suggestion really, just an interesting one.
Accually if this service is ever reinstated it would probably run from Eastern Parkway to 21st Street and eventally when the Queens Bouelvard connection opens to either Contenental Ave or 179th Street. Via Sixth Ave.
Such a service would best be started from Rockaway Parkway station in Canarsie, utilizing the AA-Eastern Parkway flyover, like the old #14 used to.
Wayne
I know there are a lot of BMT fans here, but the BMT really cheaped out by not adding a third express track to the 14th St -- Eastern line. They could have hooked up the Jamaica Ave line, and perhaps others, and gotten better use out of the 14th St tunnel.
When the post-war Second Avenue plan was still the one that was envisioned (in the early '50s bond issue, for example, the funds from which the TA diverted into other purposes even though the voters thought they were voting for new transit lines), one of the routes that was frequently mentioned on Jay Street was combining the BB (Washington Heights--Sixth Avenue Local) with the Broadway-Brooklyn/Jamaica (15, later J/JJ, later J) service. The terminals would both have been 168th Street, probably the only possible route which could have signs that never needed changing if only the street name was on the sign.
That plan had most of Second Avenue constructed as a six-track line from Chrystie St. north (for locals, expresses, and super-expresses), with its Bronx ends at 149th-3rd Avenue and Pelham Bay Park and a new tunnel to Queens at 76th Street.
At the Chrystie/Houston junction, there was also supposed to be a connection so IND service from Houston Street could turn south into Centre/Nassau, providing a 'tunnel' route from Sixth Avenue, Eighth Avenue, Houston St. and Second Avenue into DeKalb and the BMT Southern Division. With the horrors of the Manhattan Bridge in recent years, some semblance of normal service could have been preserved, with 'B's and 'D's, for instance, running through Nassau St. and the Montague St. Tunnel when the Bridge was closed. (I'm talking here about nights, middays, weekends--not rush hours.)
Does the current structure at Houston/Chrystie have tunnel leads to go south into Nassau or would the TA's construction there prevent that connection from being built?
Ed Alfonsin
Recycled Brooklynite living in Upstate NY
AFAIK the tunnel only goes east towards the Essex St. station, though Grand St. is supposed to have a false back wall, so there my be some extra trackage to the north of that station.
Although it would look strange, it might be easiest to connect to the J/M/Z line going towards Nassau St. by putting a connector in just before the Delancy St. station on the F that would go under the Delancy/Essex St. station and come up on the center tracks at the Bowery.
That would mean Second Ave.-Houston St. would be followed by Bowery-Delancey on that line, which would be a fairly normal route, except that it would go about six blocks out of the way to get from one station to the other.
[ Reasoning behind WB / 6th Avenue construction ]
It was one of many attempts by the TA to relieve IND Queens Line congestion on the cheap by using excess capacity on the J line route.
The TA hoped that people would flock to the Bway/Jamaica/6th Ave. service once they had a one-seat ride to midtown.
The TrainRiders/Northeast spring newsletter has an update on construction for the Boston-Portland, ME AMTRAK service.
[The TrainRiders/Northeast spring newsletter has an update on construction for the Boston-Portland, ME AMTRAK service.]
Has the MBTA ever considered extending commuter service to Portland? It seems to be a bit over 100 miles, which is within the realm of possibility for commuter ridership.
Not Portland, but there is a proposal on the table to extend the Lowell line northward to Nashua, NH.
There has been some talk about a Portland extension, but there are several problems:
1. Guilford
2. Portland is about 126 miles from Boston by Rail, which is a bit far for commuting. Compare the similar Greenport and Montauk runs on the LIRR.
3. Guilford
4. Amtrak's expected schedule will put one trip into Boston during morning rush and one out during evening rush. That should cover any need (though at Amtrak fare rates)
5. Guilford
6. A T extension would require cooperation of three states to run the service, and provide subsidies as needed. Maine might go along, but New Hampshire is notoriouly reluctant to subsidize commuter service to Boston as evidenced by past efforts to Manchester and Concord. (But see below)
7. Guilford
8. An 80 MPH Amtrak train leaving Portland at 5:30 AM would reach Haverhill about 80 minutes later at 6:50 AM. It might be followed by a Guilford Freight departing at 6:51, which, barring a delay, might arrive at Haverhill at roughly 10:51 AM. Of course a Northbound Amtrak will probably depart Boston around 6:20 AM, also arriving at Haverhill at 6:50. That train would have to meet the freight somewhere, preferably not head-on. Since passenger trains on Amtrak are inferior to everything larger than a section flat, it would have to take a siding somewhere in Maine to allow the freight to pass. With this type of operation it would be pretty hard to squeeze a 60 MPH commuter train making local stops in between (especially since the Amtrak train would also take a siding for that!)
The above may seem cynical, but on my last NY trip my Amtrak train roared past a commuter train near Forest Hills, and then stopped to allow it to get into Back Bay first! Going down we waited at New Rochelle for an outbound MNCR to pass before getting onto the NYCR.
Seriously, however, there is a very hot proposal to extend the Newburyport line to Portsmouth. Unlike Portland, which has an existing railroad, the Eastern Division has a few more serious problems, starting with a missing bridge over Low St., just north of Newburyport Station. Next comes the Merrimack River Draw, which has stood at a right angle to the rails for over 20 years. North of the draw the track through Salisbury is intact though not accessible from any other railroad. A section in Seabrook is stripped to the roadbed, but from Hampton to Portsmouth the line is in service, though not approved for speeds over 6 MPH. Compared to getting Commuter trains to Portland this is is a major $$capital$$ project. The bet is that Portsmouth, at 62 miles, would generate enough traffic to make the investment pay, to the extent that NH may be willing to help fund the bridges in MA. This project is actually getting some press!
That only leaves the 15 odd miles of Eastern Route Roadbed between Kittery and North Berwick in the way of a Portland - Portsmouth - Boston route, and I'm sure there are some dreamers looking at that!
Enough is Enough
Gerry
[There has been some talk about a Portland extension, but there are several problems:
1. Guilford
2. Portland is about 126 miles from Boston by Rail, which is a bit far for commuting. Compare the similar Greenport and Montauk runs on the LIRR.]
While 126 miles is rather far for daily commuting, I would caution against reading too much into the LIRR examples. Many people do commute from eastern Suffolk County. Because LIRR commuters usually will not change trains, however, the people from eastern Suffolk generally drive into Ronkonkoma and catch electric trains. Low ridership on the Greenport and Montauk lines hence is somewhat misleading.
The article doesn't seem to mention building the connection between North and South stations in Boston. Wouldn't this be a prerequisite for including the Boston-Portland line into any kind of high-speed "network"?
The Boston-Portland service will orginate at North Station. Yes, that means a gap between South and North Stations, requiring a transfer via subway (red to green lines) or taxi ride (yuk). The North-South Rail Link is still in the proposal stage; there's no money allocated, and no timetable. The only good news is that the "Big Dig" has left room for the tunnel beneath the depressed Central Artery.
Wow, 12 billion for the "big dig" hiway but no money for transit. Why isn't the MBTA fighting for federal funds for the North station South Station link. Where are the environmentalists when you need them? The MBTA could thru route their commuter trains from one suburb to another via North and South Stations. That has got to improve equipment utilization. They would need fewer cars to run rush hour services and it would speed transit access to more areas of the Boston Metro area by eliminating transfers.
In fact there is just such an operational proposal to thru-route North and South Side Commuter Rail. But there's no money on the table. Best estimate is the mid teens... as in 2015!
There's a good web site that talks about the North-South Rail Link proposal (but I have the link back in Boston, and I'm still in NYC now :-).
Dear Sir/Madam:
Currently on the BMT Southern Divisions, the R-68s built by
Westinghouse Amrail are running on the D and N lines and the R-68As
built by Kawasaki are running on the B line. Now that the Williamsburg
Bridge is closed, are the R-32s occassional cars on the N and Q lines?
Are the slant R-40s occassional cars on the N line until October 1999?
Why are there occassional R-68As built by Kawasaki on the N Line?
I saw an N train of R-68As built by Kawasaki yesterday at 42nd Street-
Times Square. Why are there occassional R-68s built by Westinghouse-
Amrail on the B Line? Why did the B and Q lines swapped subway cars
in November 1997?
Will the BMT southern division lines ever see new cars in 2000?
Will the R-143s operate on those lines upon their arrival? If they
ever get newer cars, will they be 67 feet long or 75 feet long?
When the 63rd Street Tunnel Connection opens, what will be car
assignament for the IND-BMT Subway Cars? Will the R-32s and R-46s
shoffle on the E, F, G and R Lines? Will the R-68s also be mixed in
on Queens Blvd Services?
James Li
I remember most of this post from a while back also.
The main reason for the B and Q swapping equipment was to enable maintenance crews to bestow additional TLC (tender loving care) to the slant R-40s, since they are quite a bit older than the R-68s. Since the Q doesn't run during weekends, that's when the slants can be attended to. Plus they get some extra rest.
There was some redistribution of equipment in anticipation of the Williamsburg Bridge closing. Typically, the R-32s you see on the N and Q lines are there to supplement schedule requirements.
The N line has had a few trains of slant R-40s for some time now.
The R-143s will be 60 feet long. Supposedly, they will be initially assigned to the L. Eventually, they may be used to enhance service when the 63rd St. connector opens.
The R-68s provide base service on the N. I should point out that I am lumping all R-68s together when I speak of them, R-68s and R-68As.
Anything concerning the 63rd St. connection at this point is pure speculation.
For those of you who are interested in "what will happen when the 63rd street connection opens?" or "how will trains be rerouted when the Manny-B sides switch," here are some interesting Job Opportunities with NYC Transit. Hmmm... I wonder if they allow telecommuting???
When I last lived in NYC, in 1986, I could swear that some old incandescent lamps
around the 116th St. station (could have been 103 or 110th St.) on the West Side IRT
had some old, but still-functional light bulbs that flickered as if running on
low-frequency AC. I think I had heard that 25 Hz power was once used in the Transit System, and would
love to know whether 25 Hz was still in use in a few spots in 1986.
Fwiw, I lived on 108th st. (West Side) for 23 years.
Reply by e-mail, rather than only a post to this message base, would be greatly appreciated.
(Apologies for the long/short line lengths. Many on-line forms
rearrange the paragraph. This one doesn't.)
Seems this Web site has a somewhat-oddball design, in that it's easy
to lose the e-mail address of someone you're replying to. Just in
case, mine's nbodley@tiac.net. Sorry, and thanks!
Your email address shows up just fine on both your posts. And the form reformats your paragraphs just fine. Maybe it's a problem with your browser.
25Hz power is STILL used in the transit system. NYCT is buying frequency converters that will change 60Hz power supplied through the Con Edison network to 25Hz until such time as the signals, lighting, etc. that require 25Hz power are retired. Con Ed wants to get out of the 25Hz supply business.
David
Wow - I had no idea. Is the ENTIRE NYCT subway system running on 25 Hz AC? Or is it just certain divisions or sections?
Most of the system's on 60Hz now. Older signals, lighting, etc. are still on 25Hz.
David
[Wow - I had no idea. Is the ENTIRE NYCT subway system running on 25 Hz AC? Or is it just certain divisions or sections?]
The systems 3rd rail runs on 600 vdc.
The substations that supplied the 3rd rail were fed with 25Hz AC which was converted to dc using rotary converters. As the substations were modernized and the rotary converters were replaced with solid state rectifers 60 Hz commercial power could be used.
Are there any tube rectifier substation in use still? I know there were are few, and the LIRR apparently used them too...
I know that by the end of the evening the 63 St/ Bway shuttle will make its final stop at 34 St until another construction idea comes along. By Sunday the line will be extinct and resuming of the B & Q lines. It is nice to see that the 63 St/ 6 Av line will resume late nights, but it dawns on me, Is there anyway to establish a line along Whitehall St - 21 St Queens bridge providing Express service between Canal St - 57 St? Also with the 63St / 6 Ave shuttle couldn't they rename it the Q train shuttle?
Just a thought? What do you think?
Q Train: The problem is that the N and the R have an exclusive on the local tracks of the Broadway Line. You could run a train down the normally unused express tracks from 57 St but it would have to switch to the local tracks north of Canal to go any further.(Other than the lower level of City Hall).The S 63 Street Shuttle was able to use the express tracks between 57 St and 34 St because they did not interfere with the other services.
Larry,RedbirdR33
But how about renaming the "S" shuttle (Late night 63 Street-2nd Ave Shuttle) the "Q" (As Mr. Q train said)? They used to do it before extended the "F"s to 21 Street from Rockafeller Center on late nights back in '93.
I think it would be nice if:
A: There was a Broadway express from 21st St. to Whitehall St. during rush hours(the "Q").
B: If this "Q" were cut back to the lower level of City Hall(if ever fixed up).
The problem is this: Traditionally, "Q" has designated Brighton Service - today's "Q" is a shortened version of "QB" (which was a Brighton local). I believe the sign they have put aside for this Whitehall service is the "W".
Wayne
In the days prior to Chrystie Street some thought was given to designating the Forest Hills-Whitehall St service "QB" for Queens-Broadway.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That raises the question: if there was going to be a Brighton local via bridge service, what marking would it have carried?
The way I understand it, the pre-Chrystie St. QB evolved from the Theater Specials which ran during evenings in the late 50s. Apparently, it was popular enough so that it was retained when the letter code was implemented on the Southern Division, and was designated QB to distinguish it from the Brighton local which entered Manhattan via tunnel and was given the QT marking.
BTW, even if Broadway express trains were to terminate at the lower level of City Hall, they'd still have to switch over to the local track north of Canal St, since the express tracks lead to the bridge. They would then have to switch back to the "express" track before City Hall.
Under the then (when the R27/30's were first delivered) normal practice, the Brighton local would have been called the QQ. However, the evening/late night (and, perhaps, weekend) service of the Brighton local differed from daytime service. When the Brighton express (Q) ran, the Brighton local ran through the tunnel and, hence, was called the QT. When the Q service wasn't running, the Brighton local ran via the bridge; hence, the QB. After Chrystie St., the QT died (was initially replaced by the QJ). The QB was then used to denote rush hour Brighton express service via the Manhattan Bridge and Broadway express tracks.
I believe the post-Chrystie St. QB ran express only in Manhattan. The D took over for the Q in Brooklyn and ran express during weekdays.
You are correct on the other counts: the QB and QT markings were adopted to distinguish one service from the other; they never ran at the same time.
I still remember seeing QB trains of R-27s on Broadway (and T trains of R-32s, for that matter) on Saturdays during the fall of 1967 before the Chrystie St. connection opened.
Dear Steve:
On Weekdays before the Chrystie Street connection opened, the
Brighton Express trains ran on weekdays 7am-7pm and were marked as
the Q train, like today's Q train which runs weekdays 6am-9pm. At
those times when the Q was running, Brighton Locals ran via Montague
Street Tunnel and were marked as the QT train (Weekdays 7am-7pm).
The QB ran when the Q and QT were not running, during weekdays 7pm-
7am and 24 hours on weekends, via the Manhattan Bridge, Braodway-
Brighton Local.
In 1967, when the Chrystie Street Connection opened, the D
became the Brighton Express, and the QB and QJ became the Brighton
Locals on weekdays. The QB ran only during rush hours and the QJ
ran weekdays 6am-8pm. During evenings, nights and weekends, when the
QB and QJ were running on the Brighton Lone, the D ran as the
Brighton Local all the way to Coney Island.
James Li
That's absolutely correct. I understand that during the mid-60s, Q trains ran local in Brooklyn during midday hours. In fact, there is a photo in Under the Sidewalks of New York of a Q train of R-32s on the southbound Brighton local track.
< I understand that during the mid-60s, Q trains ran local in Brooklyn during midday hours. >
That's true. The midday lack of Brighton Express service was one of the drastic cutbacks in non-rush hour service which began in the late 50s. In earlier days, West End and Sea Beach Expresses ran to Times Square 24/7.
The midday Brighton Express restoration was one of the first restorations affected by community hearings.
You have to wonder what the rationale was behind that, since the QT ran during the same hours as the Q and was already providing local service along the Brighton line. I wonder if the only reason the Q ran at all during middays was to provide more direct access to midtown Manhattan via the bridge. Maybe I'm missing something, but that sort of arrangement just doesn't make sense.
It was part of the then-current theory which said express service was less important than frequency of service. In the case of the Brighton Line, this meant that providing every 6 minute service (12 minute headway x 2 services) was more important than maintaining an express.
Several local political groups (the Sheepshead Bay Reform Democratic Club sticks in my memory) actually managed to arrange a public hearing and invited my brother and I, since at that time we were involved in transit activism. In addition to the other speakers, we presented a paper which demonstrated, based on two different operational theories, that express service should be reinstituted.
The most fun for me was when one TA official asked, with an air of skepticism, what was the source of our figures. "The Transit Record," I replied. The Transit Record was a TA publication of turnstile registrations. Whether or not that paper made the difference, expresses were restored soon after.
To give credit to the TA people, they actually listened to what the speakers had to say, in that era when public hearings weren't required. My impression is that these days many required public hearings are pro forma affairs with banners and street theater but with the results predetermined. More like public airings than public hearings.
The idea for a "QB" Queens-Broadway service assumed that the Bway-Brighton service would still be called "Q". However it was quickly replaced by "QM" for Queens-Manhattan and the Brighton-Bway service became "QB." There was also consideration for a "BT" combining the BB and T . This was done but was simply called "B." Apparently the decision to use "EE" for the Queens-Broadway service was not made until July 1967.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I had a dream once that the D was marked as QD, which sort of makes sense. I can't recall which cars were involved.
Steve: Its too bad that such a mismash was made of the IND Letter System. Even in the old days it didn't seem to trouble the Queens Riders that although their train was labeled "E 8th Avenue Express"
thay it only ran express in Queens and local in Manhattan,ditto for the F, the riders knew what was going on.
Today in this era of political correctness we call the J an express even though at times it skips only the Bowery.(This is pre-bridge work) and the E a local even though it runs express from Jamaica-Van Wyck to Queens Plaza. A darn good express run in anybody's book.
We also have overused the letter "S". Today we have at least 4(possibly 5) "S" trains and will have six when the Franklin Shuttle returns from Sabbatical.
The B and D suffer the most from an identity crisis since they can't make up there minds where they are supposed to run in Manhattan. The Brighton should be the D when it goes up 6 Av and the Q when it goes up Broadway. Likewise the West End should be the B when on 6 Av and the T when on Broadway.
Do most riders really know the diffence between the orange"S" and the yellow "S"? We do but I wonder if the general public does.
The obvious exceptions were the I and the O.I hear tell of a W train.
Is this an express or the local for the U train.
As for the P train I've never seen it but I have been told that people have been taking a P against the wall for years at many stations.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hornet--
The problem with idea B is that trains would still have to travel on the local tracks from Canal south, since the express tracks head onto the Manhattan Bridge.
However, you did give me an idea: when they reconstruct the Manhattan Bridge tracks, why not built a switch just beyond the Canal Street Station lower level? Wouldn't there be enough room for an eight- or ten-car train to turn there if the bridge is out?
If you did that, you could run the Q (or W) between 21st Street and Canal, where people could transfer for a whole host of other services?
Thoughts?
Michael
Actually thats the way the line was originally built but after construction had begun it was decided to route the express tracks over the MannyB. This required considerable reconstruction and ended with the express tracks between Canal Street and City Hall being isolated from the express tracks north of that point.
Larry,RedbirdR33
For that matter, why not do it now? Run an express from 21 St./Queensbridge to the currently unused platforms at Canal St. (in addition to the Q to 6th Ave.) All that would be needed would be to reinstall tracks at both platforms and add an "X" type switching arrangement just north of the Canal St. lower-level station, so that it can serve as a terminal.
You would need the cars (which the TA doesn't have); you would have to put in florescent lighting (it is quite dark there); the platforms are too narrow (for various reasons); southbound passengers would complain to the crew as to why isn't the train going to Brooklyn and finally, 21 St. ridership doesn't justify 2 services!
Actually, the center tracks at the Canal St (Tunnel Line) station go to the lower level of City Hall station. There's no connection between the express tracks above Canal, and the center (layup) tracks at the tunnel line station.
-Hank
Hank: Your right. Thanks for catching that. Of course the chances of City Hall Lower Level seeing revenue trains are about the same as the MannyB ever being fixed.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Either today, friday, 5/21 or next Tuesday 5/25 the Illinios House and Senate will vote on the Illinois first Plan.
Included in this plan is 4 billion!!! dollars for Public Transit in Illinois and 2.2 Billion for the CTA!!!
All of the Illinois government leaders had a meeting with George Ryan and worked out a deal with him that meant they will vote for the plan.
It is expected that this plan will unanimously pass, but we all know what kind of luck the CTA has, so cross your fingers!
BTW: All of the 2.2 billion will go for necessary repairs over the next 5 years on the CTA. Maybe after this we will be able to ride the L anywhere it goes and not have to deal with slow-zones or delays. (yeah, right!)
BJ
With all the talk of middle 'c' and f sharp and such, I just wanted to be permitted one boast. The R-46s achieved an All Time High MDBF of 135,000 miles Now that's music to my ears!!!!!!
Congratulatons, Steve! May your R-46 door chimes be right on key...
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Yes, a high MDBF is a great thing. The only draw back is that this is why motormen are not given a thorough training on breakdowns....resulting in some of our current motor instructors not knowing every in and out of a train like they used to. This is the TA's plan. Leave the breakdowns for car equipment and leave the supervising to the Train Service Supervisors.
What exactly is there for a TSS or T/O to do anyway? All the 75 foot cars are link-bar equipped so we can't establish a good section from a bad section without sacrificing a following train. When I started as a T/O years ago, we troubleshooted, retrieved and flagged our trains to safety with C/Rs. A Motor Instructor was protected from retaliation from supervision above because his immediate was a zone trainmaster with civil service status so he was allowed to make decisions to protect the safe movement of trains. Now in this day a TSS aboard a brake pipe rupture I had a few years ago was too scared to ABD the following train so we could have the required two cars brakes for the one cut out that I walked off the train and told him "good luck" finding a flagman because of the unsafe practices and shortcuts some take to avoid the wrath of Labor Relations. I feel that even if the trains aren't failing at the rate they did upon my rookie days, it isn't an excuse for our supervisors to not know their jobs as it is an insult to those who learned it right and earn the same pay as the TSSs who don't know an EMV from a pulled cord.
Flash back to 1981, when most of the R46 trucks were being rebuilt and new ones reconstructed at the Brooklyn Army Terminal. 20% of the fleet out of service, or more, and morning service out of Jamaica Yard was short at least 20 trains.
Nice work!!
All right Steve!---you wanna dance to the Macarena or Chumbawamba to that great news?
The MTA once again reported that ridership is up by X percent to X per day.
Does anyone know where I can get annual subway, bus, LIRR etc. ridership going back into the past? I know the data exists, but I haven't been able to find it in a readily accessed form.
I've go NYC employment data by industry back to 1950. I'd love to have transit ridership by mode starting that year as well.
[Does anyone know where I can get annual subway, bus, LIRR etc. ridership going back into the past? I know the data exists, but I haven't been able to find it in a readily accessed form.]
Isn't this data a matter of public record? If so, the data would be available at the NYC Public Library, no? It may not be in computer format; however, it should be avaliable there.
I remember the days when I did a great deal of research in the Main Library in Philadelphia, long before the Internet.
Jim K.
Chicago
I know the BOT/TA/MTA has kept records over the years on ridership, which peaked in either 1947-48 and then started downhill until the recent revival. I don't know if those numbers were published in the city's old "Green Book" before the MTA took over operations, but you can check.
At one time, the NY Subways Advertising Corporation (which handled subway, el, bus, trolley coach, and streetcar advertising) issued an annual report that listed paid fares for subway stations by line (with transfer stations having single totals) and ridership figures for individual surface routes. Some of those reports may still be around.
(It's possible I may not have the ad company's name exactly right, but it's at least close.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
In my post on the advertising company's reports, I should have said "in the 1950s, possibly also in the 1940s" instead of the useless "at one time" wording.
Sorry.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Larry,
May I commend you to 'Under the Sidewalks of NY', by Brian Cudahy, second revised edition, 1995, page 190, which lists subway patronage, not necessarily ridership, at 5-yearly rests from 1905. The peaks were 2bn in 1930 (as Cudahy notes, without the IND) and post WWII, 1947.
For a recent figure, NYC Transits' 'Facts & Figures', 1995, notes that the subway 'serves customers' at about 1.1bn per year, page 10; SIRT is 5.2m, page 14, and buses, 'carrying' about 450m per year, page 24.
No doubt publications on LIRR and Metro-North would also give these details.
Is there a 'Year Book' for NY City or State, which might gather all these figures together in one place?
With multi-trip Metro-cards, these figures must be getting more difficult to gather other than by sampling. How many rides did you take before and after that ticketing system, for example?
Many cities in England and Europe have the same systems and often gather statistics by sampling rather than through the fare box.
Check the Federal Transit Administration board they may have the Section 15 data on line. The changed the name to the National transit database or something like that
check for a link to FTA through the apta.com pages They also have statistics but I am not sure if they are accesible on line. You could e mail and ask for the APTA ridership reports.
Larry- try invoking this:
Public Law 95-15, The Freedom of Information Act( FOIA). This act is how the NY Times got the Pentagon Papers.
I have used the FOIA in the past to get results- it works!
Was it true that there was once an idea for a P train?
Where would have it run to and via what line or was it for the Second Avenue Line?
AFAIK the only use ever planned for P was a non-stop express special from Jamaica Center/Parsons-Archer to 34th St-8th Avenue in the event of a LIRR strike. R32 cars have a "P" sign in their window rolls - it is a white circle with a black "P". Of course, their bulkhead signs (and those of the R38) can display "P" (if you can read it through the dirty glass and dim light). This service would have gone via the Jamaica El, then Broadway, across the Williamsburg Bridge, through the old "KK" connection to Bway-Lafayette, then switching to the 8th Avenue line near West 4th Street. It would have either deadheaded uptown or reversed in the old 42nd Street lower level.
Wayne
That is absolutely correct. In fact, it the same musical spirit as the JFK Express (Remember: "Take the train to the plane") the LIRR slogan was "If you need to get to the city during our strike, Take a P, Take a P, take a P."
Judging by the smell already there, a `P' train going though Broadway-Lafayette would just be redundant.
Oh, POOH! Steve - you're a "P"isser! :oP
Wayne
One minor correction, Wayne... an uptown P could not turn in the old 42nd lower station; that exists on the downtown side only.
(Sorry if I colored the line yellow 8=)
Boy did you guys make a sorry mess out of this thread...
Interestingly, O and P were both skipped back when the BMT lines were lettered J ... K ... L ... M ... N ... ... ... Q ... R ... (S) ... T
When BMT Lines were lettered, they picked up from the IND lettering at H, and went up to M for Eastern Division and up to T for the Southern Division.
Three letters were pointedly skipped over: I, O and P. The semi-official reasons I heard contemporaneously were that I and O resembled one and zero too closely.
The P should be obvious, but more so when you recall that local trains were still double-lettered at the time. So even if a "P" train could have made it, the ridicule of a possible "PP" train was too much.
As an aside, the simple logic of the IND lettering system went completely out the window with the BMT lettering.
The P train is a emergency line it replaces the LIRR is case of a strike between Jamaica Center and "P"enn Station.
The posting about avoiding I, O, and P letters for trains is the explanation I remember hearing when use of the letters was first being implemented.
BTW, why is it that 'Fourth Avenue' seems to be the only one of the old Southern Division routes that isn't identified by its old name? It seems very strange to be on a 'F' train on Sixth Avenue seeing 'Culver' on the signs but on an 'R' on Broadway to see only 'Broadway'--is it the usual TA anti-BMT bias?
On the subject of 'P' trains, just as we used to have the "Bankers' Special," the 'P' could be nicknamed the "Strikebreakers' Express" or maybe the "Scab Special." Would operating it be the equivalent of asking TWU members to cross a picket line?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Actually, I think that when they came up with the extension of the letter scheme to the BMT in the late 50s, P was supposed to be for the Culver line (which at that time still ran from Ditmas Ave. to Chambers St.).
By the time that the first cars signed for the new scheme were delivered (R27 series in late 1960), the Culver line was just operating as as shuttle between Ditmas Ave. and 9th Ave., and the "P train" designation never appeared on any of the roller curtains.
The Southern Division titles are no longer "officially" used; however, they do pop up on maps. The R-32s and R-38s still make mention of them on their side route curtains, and the R-46s, as you pointed out, will say "Culver". I'm trying to remember if the R-46s said, "Sea Beach" when they ran on the N, or if they simply displayed "Broadway".
My question on train signage was really about the total absence of the words "Fourth Avenue" from R-32s, R-38s, R-46s, and apparently all other B division cars and even from station signs. Is there a sign anywhere in the system that reads, " R to 95th Street Brooklyn via Fourth Avenue "?
It must have been a deliberate decision on the part of someone to eradicate "Fourth Avenue" (sort of like the way the Port Authority carefully removed 'Hudson and Manhattan' and 'H & M' from almost everywhere it had been).
Curiously,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Maybe the signage designers thought that "Fourth Avenue" suggested Manhattan, and would confuse people--i.e.: the IRT has the Broadway-7th Ave Line (all Manhattan)--maybe they thought Broadway-4th Ave would be the same.
What I can't figure out is why they signed R-types 95th St.-Brooklyn instead of 95th St.-Ft H'ton., which was more to the point.
You know it brings up two issues.
1) F trains from Queens says "6 Ave/ Culver Lcl"
So R says "Broadway Local"
2 E F trains to Queens says "Queens Express/ 6 (8) Ave Local"
G R trains either says "Broadway Local" (R) or "Crosstown Local"
Are the G and R trains, as we know are extreme local trains have to keep to their respected line names while the E F and A trains can use each line names despite they both go local and express despite the their respected lines.
I would love to see what would had happen if the C train had those models?
I've noticed that virtually all destination signs on trains nowadays include the borough as well as the street. Even "Coney Island", which at one time needed no further explanation, now includes Brooklyn (or is it Stillwell Ave?).
It still seems strange to see "207th St.-Manhattan" instead of "Wash. Hts.-207th St." on A trains and "205th St.-Bronx" instead of "Concourse-205th St." on D trains. Oh, and "95th St.-Brooklyn" instead of "95th St.-4th Avenue" on R trains. There are numerous other examples.
Believe it or not, I initially assumed 4th Ave. referred to Manhattan when seeing the "4th Ave. local" designation on RR trains in 1967.
What was really confusing was when some trains were marked "95th St./4th Ave." for the southern terminal, without any mention of "Brooklyn". While there may be no such intersection in Manhattan (unless you count Park Ave. as "4th"), it takes a few moments to realize that.
These signs (on R-27/R-30 cars) were usually accompanied by northern terminal signs that simply read "ASTORIA" in big letters.
"Ditmars Blvd., Astoria" and "95th St., Brooklyn" both make more sense.
The R-32s and even the Triplexes had "Astoria" on their roll signs as well. The R-27/30s were fitted with a large "95th St." insert on their lower side destination signs. It was a clear panel with large black lettering. One of my side destination curtains has "Astoria" on it. This curtain has other northern BMT terminals including City Hall, and is spliced to an Eastern Division curtain used on the R-7/9s. The font is different from any other that I've seen.
Ah, the PP-Train that is the true source of the subway smell alluded to in another thread :~)
WOW----the P train sounds great. It will get rid of all those bums on the other MTA lines and clean them up for a change. All those bums can pee on the P train for all I care----I wouldn't mind that at all. The P train should run express at aa times from Times Sq. to the Staten Island Land fill or beyond for that matter.
All comments are appreciated!!!!!
Hey I'm a bum!!!!!!
I live near the Ditmars Boulevard stop on the N line, and lately I have seen signs going up in many businesses around the station that just say "NO TRAIN TO THE PLANE." This was really puzzling to me at first, but now I understand there is a plan to tunnel from the Ditmars station on over to Laguardia. Where can I go online to read up on this?
I don't remember whete the articles first appeared but there were two proposals for extending the N train to LaGuardia. The one favored by the MTA was to extend from the present terminal - along 19th Avenue to LaGuardia. The alternate position was a branch along the GCP to laGuardia.
This proposal has been extensively discussed, here and elsewhere. The best thing for the city -- and for most of the people in Astoria -- would be for the Astoria line to be extended two blocks north into the industrial area then around to the airport. It would provide the best service for the lowest cost -- both operating and capital -- and make the Astoria Line the premier line in the city. Service on the Astoria Line would increase, and it would be the cleanest with the newest equipmment.
Unfortunately, it would also extend the elevated line past two blocks of residences north of Ditmars. That, plus the anti-everything attitude in NYC, may be enough to kill it. The two blocks of residences can be handled by compensation. You can give every one living in the blocks adjacent to the extention $100,000 for just $10 million. The anti-everything attitude is more difficult to deal with, especially when the speaker of the City Council comes from the area and has as his power base people who do not work and do not care about the future of the city.
They had a public hearing, and the 500 people who are against it showed up to complain. The millions who would benefit did not bother (as ususal).
If you gave them $100,000.00, they would shut up like a clam :~I
In Montclair, NJ they needed some land for NJ Transit's Montclair connection. There was widespread opposition until everyone and their brother was given more money. With Railroad construction costs in New York running about $250 million a mile, or so it seems, paying off the local residents to soundproof their home with enough left over for a lifetime transit pass would still be cheaper than finding an alternate alinement. The politicians would have to get behind the project but the great visionaries in Queens haven't been supportive thus far.
I am very interested if any such idea was to along to make a tunnel or extend the Astoria el and tunnel to the Airport would it also be possible to head to Co - Op City bronx via College Point, WhiteStone, Bruckner, to CO - OP City.
Just a thought!!!
I don't think you're going to see trains on the Whitestone Bridge anytime in the next fifty years. The bridge that does have plenty of capacity right now - and was engineered to handle trains - is the Hell Gate. Service from Co-op City (or from points north in Metro-North territory) over the Hell Gate to Penn Station, or Grand Central when the 63rd Street connection is built, is certainly feasible. The Hell Gate tracks pass right over the Ditmars Blvd. station of the N, so a transfer station could be built there.
Those R68's would never make it up that hill!
Maybe, but Hell Gate Bridge is so strong it wouldn't even flinch. If it could support 67 locomotives, subway cars would be a piece of cake, even the Triplexes.
The grades on the approaches aren't that steep, are they?
Sending the N over the Hell's Gate bridge would either require some major modifications to the bridge for dedicated BMT tracks and Amtrak trackage, or the N would have to share track, requiring it to then conform to stricter federal rail safety laws.
Since the N connects to the rest of the subway then all of the subway would be forced to use FRA rules and as Steve has pointed out, that would cause problems and increased costs.
I don't think anybody is suggesting that the subway get involved with FRA regulations. The most likely scenario would be a commuter rail service, possibly a joint Metro-North/LIRR operation. If the Hell Gate has room for four tracks, it would eventually be possible to have two tracks for regular trains and two tracks for a rapid transit or light rail option. The station at Ditmars Blvd. would be a transfer station; it does not appear necessary to extend the N itself over the bridge.
Is there a way to build a tunnel to get to College Point and the Bronx via the Airport? I did not mean pass thru the Whitestone Br, it was the Whitestone area.
P.S. Neglect those NIMBYs!!!
I would guess that there wouldn't be enough ridership between the East Bronx and the LaGuardia Airport area to justify a new tunnel anytime in the near future. I mentioned the Hell Gate Bridge not just because it exists, but because it is better located to handle different kinds of interborough trips.
Neglect those NIMBYS - Remember, their attorneys have sharp minds and teeth to match and they'll tear a BIG CHUNK out of your assets sure as the sun comes up in the mornin':-}. Don't neglect them, buy 'em off IF POSSIBLE but DON'T neglect them.
Well I was thinking about all of this I know I dont know alot about the urban area's But I think the N should go the the Bronx I Made a Line Map of my New Line E-mail me for It! But I was saying that the N train sould make it's way under the east river into the Hunt's Point area Right under the Conrail yard!and onto- Barry st and then onto Lafaytte ave with a station on Hunts Point Ave. Thus making it's way into Soundview- and a stop on Soundview ave. With a 90 deg turn onto WhitePlanes Rd and a stop at Story ave it makes it way into Parkchester with a Connetion with the (6)train. At tremont and WPRd the line Turns 90 degs Westward onto Tremont with a stop! Then onto WestFarms with a Stop at Boston Rd and a conetion with the (2) and <5>(5) Trains! For the rest of my Line map E-mail me!!!
AceGales
Bronx NY
Metro-North trains running over Hell Gate sounds like something that could happen in the future, if they can work out the problems of incompatible power sources (wrong frequency on catenary, wrong (physically interfering?) type of 3rd rail at Penn Station).
But subway service, with a free transfer at Ditmars, just isn't going to happen. The FRA would never allow it.
Also, the transfer at Ditmars, if built, will need to be ADA-compliant, so it becomes complicated. A transfer from commuter rail to subway would need turnstiles, which means you can't have elevators direct from the new platforms along the Hell Gate line to the (less highly elevated) subway platform. Probably some sort of new mezzanine level, between the N-line and Hell Gate-line levels, would need to be built, containing turnstiles and multiple elevator landings. The design would have to be, er, interesting.
Yes, commuter rail is the most likely service we'll see on the Hell Gate in the near future. However, if the bridge has room for four tracks, there could be two main-line tracks on one side, and two subway (or light rail) tracks on the other. I believe FRA regulations allow train and rapid transit service on adjacent but seperate tracks, although I think they require some kind of barrier between the two modes. In Bayonne there are two light rail tracks and one freight track in the same right-of-way, with a fence between them. I can think of other places that have two modes in one right-of-way (Orange Line through Roxbury and Forest Hills).
As for a transfer station: it would certainly need elevators. I can't think of a reason why the turnstiles couldn't be at one track level or the other. I'll try to think of another location with a similiar arrangement. Would the ridership justify the costs of construction? Off-hand I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
In this weeks issue of The Ridgewood Times aka Times Newsweekly, there is a detailed account of a community meeting about this. They have a website, but needless to say, the paper isn't online since they want you to buy it! Needless to say, the people of Astoria are dead set against the idea.
Additionally, some people mentioned at the meeting that the whole Astoria line should be underground. That will probably be the only way for the Astoria-ites to go along with the idea of an airport extension. I'm sure the cost of putting the entire line underground would be prohibitively expensive. Keep in mind the line would have to be elevated at Queensboro Plaza so as not to isolate the #7 line from the rest of the system.
Then you'd have to eliminate the 39th Avenue station in order to create a tunnel portal, and the digging and widening of 31st Street etc not to mention all the rest of the digging on up to Ditmars Blvd.
This NIMBYism is for the birds! There are just two blocks to contend with! Why not pay these people for their troubles? The elevated line has been there since at least 1918. What's two more blocks going to do? Make it a "quiet" el - concrete roadbed, sound-absorbing material in the trackbed, wheel sprayers for the curve into 19th Avenue...YOU CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE. You have to go for the greater good. I say build the extension. They'll live. Sorry if I sound like a hard-case, but them's the breaks.
Wayne
If you're going to put almost the whole line underground, you might as well just leave the N the way it is and split the line off from either the E/F express or the G/R local line at Northern Blvd. and Broadway, bypass Astroia entirely and run the line under the BQE/Grand Central ROW to LaGuardia.
There would be less new underground line to build, and there could still be stops at both the Marine Air Terminal for the Delta Shuttle as well as the main terminal. The line could reach Manhattan through the 63rd St. tunnel, which will still be under-capacity even after the connector is completed.
That would solve the problem of the Astoria NIMBYs, though I don't doubt there would be someone out there living near the BQE who would said "We don't want a subway, we only want a highway."
Branching off from the Queens Line would take capacity away from commuters. We don't want that. The Astoria Line needs more riders so it can have more service at an affordable cost. The LaGuardia extension would provide that. The Queen Line has too many riders already.
One other point about the Astoria Line. It could be extended past the airport and onto Shea Stadium or even Downtown Flushing, to take some pressure off the Flushing Line. If it is modern and fast enough from Flushing to Ditmars, it might be able to provide an equivalent travel time to Manhattan. This would also allow Port Jef line riders, and those taking the bus to Flushing, to get a quick ride to the airport.
The Astoria line already needs more service. You can ride the Astoria line pretty much any time day or night and it will be crowded up to end, making it a really safe line to ride, but during rush hour it is packed! And I'm not sure how you could add more service to the N line without creating express N and R lines in Manhattan (I've heard the tracks exists to do so), since at rush hour, the trains already can't get through.
Maybe it can even go further, lets us say College Point, Whitestone, and CO OP CIty (Bx) see N trains to the Bronx
Believe it or not, I've had dreams in which such a line actually exists! One which goes from the Bronx directly to Queens, bypassing Manhattan.
As has been mentioned here before, "the people of Astoria" would mostly benefit from this line. If a secret ballot to approve or disapprove the project were conducted throughout Astoria, it would probably be approved by a wide margin. But they don't go to public meetings. It is a small minority of activists (or really obstructionists) who attend these meetings and proclaim themselves to be "the Community". And local papers, which may be owned by the same people, are only too happy to repeat and validate these claims.
Thanks for all the responses. For the record, as a resident of Astoria, I think the extension is a wonderful idea, and I will make a point to go to any public meetings on the matter to speak in favor of it. I was wondering if anyone knew whether the plan includes any new stations, or just express service between the Ditmars station and Laguardia.
(Stations) That's a good question. Astoria Heights is far from transit today, but it is populated by many people who thing the subways bring "outsiders" and "crime." Maybe there could be a provision for a station, but without building it until those people are gone. What would really make people happy is a single track extension to Rikers. A special shuttle could leave from a new platform at Queensboro direct to Rikers, taking the place of the bus, and bypassing all the neighborhoods.
Your best spots for stations are at 19 Ave and Steinway and also at 19 Ave at Hazen (make the visitors to the Pen take the bus across the bridge). Then you branch off left at 19 Ave and 81 Street to enter the LGA grounds. Stations inside are at Marine Terminal and at the main terminal. If you're careful about where you build the El, you could even extend it along the GCP and so on up the Whitestone Expressway with a terminus at 20 Avenue. Lots of ground on the old Flushing Airport to build a nice big park-and-ride garage.
Wayne
Does the Bellrose station have platforms?? I was on my way to New Hyde Park the other day and noticed sign markers for the station. I'm assuming only diesels stop here and passengers just step off to ground level.
Thanks in advance for any feedback!
Bellrose has one elevated center island platform for the Hempstead Branch (MU service), so it is not served by diesels. They operate only on the Main Line tracks adjacent on the north side of the Hempstead Branch at that point.
The original Bellerose (correct spelling) station was raised from ground level to embankment in 1961, the same time as the Floral Park station was raised to concrete elevated. The island platform has an exit which leads to a pedestrian underpass beneath the trackbeds. One exit leads to the intersection of Atlantic and Walnut, in Floral Park village, the other leads to the roundabout in the centre of Bellerose Village itself. Only the south side tracks serve the station. The north two bypass it, but they have placed signs alongside it anyway, like they did at Jamaica. I don't remember the station prior to its reconstruction, but have been told it was a small, wooden, ground-level station, similar to Floral Park but with an island platform.
Wayne, formerly of Elmont AND Floral Park-Queens NY
is it true that the 63rd st tunnel will be opeining soon? also does it inculde any stations? also are test trains being ran or is there any plan for them?
The 63rd street tunnel from Lexington to Queensbridge will resume normal, two-way service via 6th Avenue on Monday. The extension from 21st street to Queens Plaza is still under construction and won't open for a few years.
What exactly did they close the tunnel for than? and how long was it closed?
In their infinite wisdom, they put down concrete ties in the tunnel that didn't stand the test of time. They began to deteriorate, so they decided to replace them with new and better ones - I think they are actually wooden ties sunk into a concrete bed, but don't quote me
on that. This closure begin sometime in 1998.
Wayne
If you're going to correct a mistake, you might as well do it now, before the 63rd St. link to the Queens Blvd. line is completed.
If the management from 20 years ago was around now they would have completed the link, held a big dedication ceremony, then shut the line down six months later to do the track replacement.
Actually, it was a direct fixation roadbed, with the rails attached right to the invert (with no ties involved).
David
No, there will not be any additional stations between 21st St. and 36th St., where the connection is being built. I would imagine that clearance tests will be conducted before the connection is officially opened.
I have been approved to serve on the September, 1999 Advisory group for PATH. The group will meet four Thursday nights from 6-8pm at Journal Square, the third week being a tour of Harrison Car Maintenance Facillity (HCMF) and the control center.
The reason for this message is to solicit, OFF SITE, your concerns that I might share with the group. PLEASE!!! Do not post on Sub Talk but e-mail me at the above address. I will not reply to the messages but will make a note of the concerns raised and take them before the group.
Another news flash for PATH: They had ordered 300 new cars but the order was canceled. For the K car fans- they are being replaced by PA Cars. PATH Signal :
A signal with Z underneath is an automatic signal (Example: 354 Z) while a signal with X is an interlock (Home ball- ex: LA315 X)
The double yellow automatic signal is PATH's version of our GT and Station timer signals.
(SOURCE: A PATH train operator)
While looking around the FTA website for ridership data, I came upon a financial profit of the NYCTA for 1997. That year, the subways had an operating expense per passenger of $1.17. Less than the fare. Now it is true that capital expenses are on top of that. But it is also true that those expenses include some which are paid for by taxes for automobiles -- the roadbed infrastructure. The same is true for the operation of the signals.
The buses, on the other hand, cost $1.70 per trip, even though the bus division doesn't have to pay to maintain the road. The LIRR and Metro North don't do so well either. Got to believe the subway fares are being tranferred to Metro North and (especially) the LIRR. Unfortunately, the LIRR is run like Nassau County.
Ridership is way up since 1997. Looks like the subway is a good investment to me.
Just to follow up, the LIRR was $6.30 a trip, and MetroNorth was $7.34. SIRT was $4.30. These are pretty ugly. Of course, some of those LIRR and MetroNorth trips are really inter-city trips, not commuter trips equivalent to the subway. But still, that's hefty even for a premium service. And you add the capital cost to that.
Carrying your analysis one step further shows that (unless capital expenditures per trip are grossly out of proportion) you've really hit the nail on the head.
Revenues per trip should be compared to expenses per trip. You can estimate bus and subway revenue per trip at about $1.35 (factoring in Metro-Card discounts) That probably goes a bit lower -- maybe $1.30 -- when you consider the free transfer between bus and subway and split the revenues accordingly.
For LIRR and Metro North, it's a bit trickier given the zone fares, peak/off-peak pricing and commutation options, but I'll throw out $3.85 for the LIRR (cost of a Nassau County monthly divided by 40 trips per month) and about $4.10 for Metro North.
So revenue as a percentage of expense for each mode is:
Subway 111%
City Bus 76%
LIRR 61%
MN 55%
I won't even try to guess at an average revenue for SIRT.
< I won't even try to guess at an average revenue for SIRT. >
Farebox recovery ratio for the SIRT was 28% for the last year I have figures, 1996. Over the preceding ten years it was as low as 19% and as high as 42%.
Currently it must approach zero, based on how the accounting is done and how MetroCard revenues are allocated. Essentially, the only people who can be said to pay anything like a full fare are those traveling to/from St. George and not also taking a bus or subway somewhere along the way.
Well, the published numbers I've seen indicate that TOTAL revenues equal TOTAL expenses, so the line breaks even, on paper. In reality, fare recovery for SIR is probably in the under 5% range, due to the elimination of fare collection for trips that do not originate or terminate at St. George.
-Hank
IS the free rides except at St. George a gimmick to force the end of the train service on the Island? If the train were to be discontinued and run freight only could the bus fleet handle the load?
On a political level, the general drastic lowering of transit costs are Staten Islanders is:
(a) a boost to Rudy's poll numbers
(b) a subsidy to discourage Staten Island from seceding and joining the surburbs as a community of interest
(c) both of the above.
On a practical level, farebox recovery on SIRT is so low anyway, that the cost of collecting the fare to intermediate stations would likely be higher than the extra revenue obtained.
(Farebox not worth recovering) That is certainly true of the ferry. Once they decided to go with the free transfer, it was cheaper to make the ferry free than to install the equipment needed to collect a fare from the few who use the ferry alone.
As I've said, I think it would be better (and cheaper) to convert the SIRT (and the North Shore Line) to a busway. It could be used by all types of bus routes, in addition to the one from Tottenville to St. George, and would get express buses out of local traffic.
[ Convert SIRT to a busway ? ]
I can't agree. It might be better in the extreme short term but this makes Staten Islander's future mobility beholden to traffic conditions in the rest of the City.
SIRT is a success waiting to happen. In terms of the City and region's long-term development and national commercial supremacy, the lack of a freight and passenger tunnel below the Narrows is our greatest transportation deficit--yes, IMHO, more so than either the 2nd Ave. subway or the CGT-LIRR connection.
(SIRT Busway) Would have to be extened up the rebuilt Gowanus to be effective. The thing about the forgotton borough is that it does not want the density that comes with a subway, and makes it pay. We're about to down-zone the whole south shore, and population growth on the north shore has stopped.
Although SI may not have the population density to support a full blown subway along its entire length, could it not support a railhead, with a bus interchange and park and ride. I have no idea of the time delays, but in my experience any rail-ferry-rail service add so much time to a journey that if there are alternatives then the ferry service will only appeal to a few people.
(People perfer alternatives to rail-ferry-rail) That's why I suggest paving over the SIRT, and using it for local and express buses (via bus only lanes on the Verranzano and rebuilt Gowanus). Other busways could include the North Shore Line and one along the Staten Island Expressway/Richmond Ave. Local and express buses would travel through neighborhoods, get up on the busway, and go direct to either the ferry or Manhattan. So the SIRT would serve the whole island, not just one slice of it, and without the mega-cost per rider (in a low density area) of new rail lines and tunnels.
I'm not sure if it's possible to make a practical busway. The SIRT ROW is only 2 tracks wide, but I would think a busway with express and "local" buses would have to 4 lanes wide to prevent the "locals" from tying up the busway. Widening the busway would mean buying up property and that means $$.
< I'm not sure if it's possible to make a practical busway. The SIRT ROW is only 2 tracks wide >
Hey, Philly Suburban made a busway out of an even narrower right-of-way--a former trolley PROW. I'm not sure I would call it "practical," though, two buses couldn't pass on the bridges.
(SIRT Busway two tracks wide). It certainly wouldn't work if the express buses got caught behind the locals, but a bus is more flexible than a train. All you'd need is enough room for a pull off lane in the stations, not in the whole ROW. And, you'd need ramps for various local and express bus routes to get up on the thing, and head for the ferry (or direct to Manhattan). So it wouldn't be cheap.
Part of the idea is the replacement of diesel with something cleaner and quiter for power. There is a legitimate NIMBY issue of not wanting lots of diesel buses (as opposed to infrequent trains) going through your yard. But power options seem to be coming. Someday, perhaps one could even install Pantographs on the Busway, then go to fuel cells for the trip to Manhattan, for all-electric power with a minimum of fuel cell expense.
Finally, there could be big transfer station at the foot of the Verranzano where express buses from the North Shore and South Shore (via the SIRT) and the center (via a busway in the expressway met, exchanged passengers, and diverged to Downtown, Midtown East Side, and Midtown West Side.
But this is fantasy. If anyone proposed anything for the Forgotten Boroughs, the NIMBY Nuts will shout it down in nothing flat.
"But power options seem to be coming. Someday, perhaps one could even install Pantographs on the Busway, then go to fuel cells for the trip to Manhattan, for all-electric power with a minimum of fuel cell expense."
In Seattle, for their Metro Bus Tunnel, they operate articulated trolley buses that run on an electric motor powered from twin trolley poles while in the tunnel and on a diesel engine while on the roads (usually HOV lanes on the freeway system). This is different from the pure-electric trolley buses operated on many surface lines. According to a Metro employee, the dual-powered trolley buses are the heaviest surface transit vehicles available because of the presence of the electric motor and diesel engine.
With such dual-powered vehicles, MTA could operate on overhead wire on the ROW of the SIRT (after paving it) and have two services: One would proceed, like the SIRT trains now, to the St. George ferry terminal. The other would leave the ROW at the closest point to the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge and travel under diesel power to the bridge, across it, and from there to the Bay-Ridge/95th St. terminus of the Fourth Avenue (Brooklyn) line, where the passengers could transfer free to express trains into Manhattan.
Such a system is very flexible, because if the money and ridership later appeared, feeder trolley bus routes could travel over main streets in Staten Island (using diesel engines, or preferably overhead wire if the money and public opinion allowed its installation) to the SIRT ROW and then operate on the busway.
So, what do you think?
Of course!!! NIMBY is another acronym for racism. In other words, affected property owners will claim that any such proposed rail lines would 'bring down property values' (read "we don't want people non-whites coming through/around here"). Sorry to be so blunt, but that is how I see it when I here of NIMBY.
Actually, no. It will bring down propety values simply because there are now wires in front of the house (or large steel beams) and it blocks the sunlight from entering the home. Then there's the increase in the noise level, the possibilities of pollution from construction equipment, permanent damage to the property, and anything else that may affect the way your property looks or feels now. Property value changes if someone knocks down a tree that partially shaded your backyard!
But it's all subjective. It depends on who's doing the evaluation.
-Hank
There is abosolutely no freight service on the SIR, even the newly rebuilt Travis Spur of the North Shore Line. Freight can't get past Caddell Dry Docks on the North Shore duer to numerous washouts and encroachment along the way. And the cost of collecting the fare was inded more than was collected. A trainman would earn more in a day than he could collect in a week in fares. However, due to the current contract, all trains run with a 3-man crew, and 5 car trains see limited service, because they require a 4-man crew. And the current bus fleet can't handle the load.
-Hank
< ... However, due to the current contract, all trains run with a 3-man crew, and 5 car trains see limited service, because they require a 4-man crew. And the current bus fleet can't handle the load. >
Just to enlighten the "LIRR riders don't pay enough of the 'cost of the ride' types" in the City: this is similar to LIRR crewing requirements--the "cost of the ride" includes a lot of auxiliary crew would could be phased out if the system and fare collection were modernized.
I think the SIR fare recovery is more like 90% when you figure in that about that percentage of passengers use the SIR to get into Manhattan during the a.m. and p.m. rushes. I still think that the 'free' fare will ultimately be shortlived and weatherproof Metrocard machines will be installed at the stations.
Yeah, but then you have the problem of securing the ROW. Enough vandals cut through the fences as is, and many stations have entrances that are unsuitable for the placement of turnstiles. You'd also need to employ some type of surveilence system, or man the stations, all of which will cost significantly more than a simple POP system, or the old system where the conductor or trainmen handled cash fares. I fully expect to see MVMs at some stations that previously had TVMs, but no fare controls.
-Hank
The MTA already makes a huge pofit for charging a rediculous price of $1.50 per ride.
$1.50 a ride is LOW. If they charged what it really cost, no one would ride. Fact proven many times over. But it's in the best intrests of the public to provide the service.
-Hank
$1.50 is NOT LOW. Maybe for someone like you who lives on Park Ave. it is a decent price, but for everybody else it is a damn ripoff. The MTA makes a fortune from all the companies they allow to advertise on their trains, stations and station entrances.
The MTA has the highest riderhip and makes so much $$$$ off of tourists----where can you get off saying that the MTA needs to charge $1.50 per ride to cover expenses. Balogna to you!!!!! I agree with Casey Jones that $1.50 is rediculous!!!!!!
Wow, I moved to Park Ave....
The TA only gets a percentage of the advertising revenue, as it is contracted out to an advertising company. (at last check, it was TDI) And those tourists ALSO pay $1.50. Philly's base fare is $1.60, I believe Chicago has zone fares, as do Washington and Boston. The $1.50 you pay to go from Dekalb Ave to 42st is the same as tthe $1.50 a Far Rocakawy resident pays to go to Yankee Stadium by subway. To go 5 miles on the NYC Subway will cost $1.50. To go 37 miles, $1.50. The DC system? Minimum fare is $1.10 to as much as $7 (or more, depending on distance traveled. Same with their buses, where zone charges, municipality fees, and state line crossing fees (!) transfer fees (vs FREE transfers in NY) increase fares paid. So who has the bargin?
Oh, and what items of value can you buy for $1.50 or less? Only a slice of pizza comes to mind (It seems the cost of a slice and the transit fare are near equivalents)
-Hank
Well Hank----don't know about those outrageous fares in Philly and Chicago, but cities like Jacksonville, Orlando, Seattle, St. Petersburg, Portland and Tampa all have fares for $1.oo or less. $1.50 is still HIGH. It wasn't always $1.50 right?
I'd have to say that I don't consider $1.50 to be unreasonable. Yes, the fare has increased over the years, most recently from $1.25 a few years ago - check out other parts of this site for a fare history. But for what you get, it's not bad at all, especially with the discounts for heavy users available with the unlimited-ride MetroCards (okay, for anyone who wants more info on the pros and cons of MetroCards, go back and search the threads from a month ago, please don't start THAT discussion up again). I don't get to the City as often as I might like, but I do enjoy being able to ride a long way without having to worry about zone fares, and even for a short hop it's one heck of a lot cheaper than a taxi - and usually just as fast if not faster.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And don't forget that you now have the option of buying a MetroCard Fun Pass for only US$4.00 from many merchants (not at any subway station except for 68th Street on the Lexington Avenue [#6] Local and the 59th Street/Columbus Circle Station serving the #1/#9/A/B/C/D train lines where MetroCard Vending Machines are currently in operation). And if that's not the be-all and end-all, you can even order any for of MetroCard (Unlimited-Ride and Pay-Per-Ride) online at [http://metrocard.citysearch.com].
And don't forget that you now have the option of buying a MetroCard Fun Pass for only US$4.00 from many merchants (not at any subway station except for 68th Street on the Lexington Avenue [#6] Local and the 59th Street/Columbus Circle Station serving the #1/#9/A/B/C/D train lines where MetroCard Vending Machines are currently in operation). And if that's not the be-all and end-all, you can even order any form of MetroCard (Unlimited-Ride and Pay-Per-Ride) online at [http://metrocard.citysearch.com].
Sorry to burst your bubble, but here are the correct transit fares for Chicago and Philadelphia.
Chicago: $1.50 + 30c for a two-use transfer, $5 for a 24-hour Fun Pass (and also the 1-Day Visitor Pass), $20 for the 7-Day Pass and $75 for the 30-Day Pass.
Philadelphia: $1.60 + 40c for the transfer, with suburban zone fares charged at 40c per extra zone. A SEPTA DayPass costs $5 for 24 (or maybe 26, I don't remember), a weekly city TransPass is $17.25 and the monthly TransPass is $64 (and furthermore, any senior citizen with a Medicare Card rides free on all public transportation within the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania)..
all of which, except the Chicago base fare, are MORE than the NYC fare and pass costs, although Philly prices are close. And in NYC, all transfers, even between modes, are free.
-Hank
Sorry to burst your bubble, but here are the correct transit fares for Chicago and Philadelphia.
Chicago: $1.50 + 30c for a two-use transfer, $5 for a 24-hour Fun Pass (and also the 1-Day Visitor Pass), $20 for the 7-Day Pass and $75 for the 30-Day Pass.
Philadelphia: $1.60 + 40c for the transfer, with suburban zone fares charged at 40c per extra zone. A SEPTA DayPass costs $5 for 24 hours (or maybe 26, I don't remember), a weekly city TransPass is $17.25 and the monthly TransPass is $64 (and furthermore, any senior citizen with a Medicare Card rides free on all public transportation - off-peak hours, weekends and most U.S. federal holidays only -- within the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania).
True Septa is $1.60 + 40c for transfer. But this is only if you don't intend to ride round trip. If you buy tokens (minimum of two) in advance it's actually $1.15 + 40c.
You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!! I completely forgot about the fact that most Philadelphia subway stations include token vending machines that offer the aforementioned discounts as long as at least two tokens are purchased. Thank you for reminding me.
Yeah, but where does that dollar get you? You can't go nearly as far as you can on the $1.50 in NY. Additionally, look at the differences in the systems. Age, automation, personnel differences. You really can;t make the comparison.
-Hank
if $1.50 for a subway or bus ride is rediculous what about steping into a cab and going maybe 10 blocks and paying as much as 5.50 to 6 dollars now thats a rip off!! what is it $2.00 and i forget what a 1/5 mile costs .....public transit fares across the nation are averaging maybe 1.25- 1.60 NYCTA fares can get you anywhere anytime at a reasonable cost, if you know your travel patterns and travel often enough the weekly or monthly pass is yours for the taking. pay per ride give YOU a 10% bonus added to your card result more money in your pocket. travelling around NYC by cab or car has to be the most aggravating mode of transportation.
let me correct my message before everyone hops all over me
thats 10% discount on pay per ride metrocard of $15 or more
OK---this topic is getting a little wacked out........
First of all anyone who takes cabs for such a short distace is insane.
My main point by saying that $1.50 is a rediculous fare for NYC is because I believe that the MTA is overcharging. Despite $$$$$ needed for maintenace and other projects. There are millions of people riding this damn transit system everyday. I wouldn't be surprised if NYC's ridership in one day defeats every major US city's ridership combined in one day. The MTA is making a fortune off it's riders by charging this rediculous fare and its riders are being scammed daily cause of it. I believe that the MTA can get the $$$$ they need to maintain their fleet and future projects by charging way less. It seems to all come down to greed A friendlier and cheaper MTA will mean a greater and more frequently ridden mass transit system by its customers. THE END
Only about 50% of NYC Transit's operating costs come out of the farebox. The rest come from subsidies and dedicated taxes. Other transit systems (Boston's comes immediately to mind) are more highly subsidized/supported.
The fare is also used to cover part of the capital program, more so than in previous years. In 1995, when the fare was raised from $1.25 to $1.50, it was raised both to create a reserve for the impact of free bus-to-subway transfers and to create a "pay-as-you-go" capital program account in response to NYC and NYS reducing their contributions to the capital program. Now Congress is seeking to reallocate federal transit subsidies from large states to small ones, which, if it happens, will put additional pressure on the $1.50 fare.
You're entitled to your opinion, Brooklyn Bob, but the facts don't bear you out.
David
Actually, the fare recovery ratio for the NYCT system (subways and buses) is around 70%, which is the highest (or among the highest) in the nation. The CIty subway actually covers operational costs through the fare (I think I saw a number that said the cost was $1.30 a rider), while the buses are near $2 a ride. That's just operations, not capital costs. Brooklyn Bob is way off-base. $1.50 is perfect, at least until costs increase more, so anticpate a rise to $1.75 to $2 some time before 2010.
-Hank
Where New York is at a big fare disadvantage is with the commuter railroads. Mile-per-mile fares on the LIRR and Metro-North, and probably also on New Jersey Transit, are considerably more than in some other cities. There was a discussion not long ago about MBTA (Boston) commuter rail fares, and let me tell you I was shocked!
(Higher commuter railroad fares)
That's because of higher pay and staffing levels, not necessarily deeper subsidies, especially on the LIRR.
You're right, Hank. It's 72%. I guess I shouldn't post first thing in the morning :-)
David
Curiously, where did you get the figure? I only remember reading of it, and recall a substantial number, but not specifics...
-Hank
With the $1.50 the MTA charges for a one way fare, it would be thought that all the subway stations would be clean and many remodeled. HMMM???? I wonder where all that $$$$$$is really going to. I do NOT think that $1.50 is worth waiting for a filthy train on an occassional filthy platform of an occassional filthy station. Nor is the $1.50 worth receiving service from many of MTA's token agents. Most of them are so friendly and nice I feel like I'm in Louisville.
OK----The MTA has great fare specials like free transfers and multi day passes, but $1.50 is still rediculous.
Brooklyn Bob asked where the $1.50 he pays for a ride goes. First off, $1.50 covers only about 70% of the cost of providing the ride. That said, here's where the money goes:
Labor/Benefits: 69%
Material/Other: 12%
Debt Service/Capital Program Payment: 12%
Power/Fuel: 5%
Public Liability: 2%
These figures are according to the NYCT 1999 Operating Budget Proposal.
As can be seen from the above, this system is very labor-intensive. In 1985, for example, labor/benefits ate approximately 77% of the budget, so NYCT is spending proportionally less on labor and more on other things. The 12% debt service/capital program payment chunk is higher than it used to be (3% in 1985) mostly because NYCT's covering through the farebox some capital program expenses that the state and the city used to pay for but don't anymore. In 1985, power/fuel was 7% of the budget; material/other, 12% (same as now); and public liability, 2% (also same as now).
True, the stations and the cars aren't as clean as we'd like them to be, but whose fault is that? Who puts the litter/dirt there? Besides, NYCT wanted to bring welfare recipients (WEPs) in to clean stations (replacing full-time cleaners who were attrited out during the budget cuts of the mid-'90s [the same reason NYCT's contributing operating funds to the capital program]), but the Mayor blocked it for at least 2 years. He's since changed his mind and the WEPs should be on the scene shortly (if they're not already).
At this point, I think we should all agree to disagree. It seems that Brooklyn Bob's opinion won't be swayed, no matter how many facts are presented.
[With the $1.50 the MTA charges for a one way fare, it would be thought that all the subway stations would be clean and many remodeled. HMMM???? I wonder where all that $$$$$$is really going to. I do NOT think that $1.50 is worth waiting for a filthy train on an occassional filthy platform of an occassional filthy station. Nor is the $1.50 worth receiving service from many of MTA's token agents. Most of them are so friendly and nice I feel like I'm in Louisville.
OK----The MTA has great fare specials like free transfers and multi day passes, but $1.50 is still rediculous]
Even if Brooklyn Bob is right in his assertion that $1.50 is too much to pay for a ride, who actually PAYS $1.50? Students through high school don't pay while they're in school (and the city doesn't cover them 100% the way it used to); NYCT employees don't pay; seniors/disabled pay 1/2 fare (the city's supposed to make up the difference but doesn't come close to coming close); and people with multi-day cards or cards with $15+ on them don't pay $1.50, either. The only people paying $1.50 are occasional riders and those who refuse to stop using tokens (not counting express bus riders, who pay $3 or less depending on what kind of card they're using).
David
I suggest that Brooklyn Bob move to Jersey City, where he can use PATH for only $1.00 (even less if he buys a monthly QuickCard). He'll have to look long and hard to find scratchiti on the train windows, so hopefully he'll be satisfied with his ride for a buck.
We'd all like what PATH has, a super-system that someone else pays for. But everyone screws New York, not the other way around. If it were not draining money from NYC, the PATH fare would be $1.50 just the NYCTA.
The writing is on the wall. Our tax dollars are going to go for mass transit and roads in the rest of the state and the rest of the nation, but NYCTA isn't going to be getting any federal or state funding before long. Our representatives will trade it away for something else.
That's why I advocate having state and federal transportation spending fall to zero. The more money passes through Albany and Washington, the worse off we are.
Right on, if nobody got subsidies, then the inefficient highway and air systems would whither away and rail would be back on top under private ownership paying taxes and providing economical service.
(Highway and air systems). I think air transportation does make a profit, and doesn't require net subsidies, but you have a point about highways. If the federal government stopped paying to maintain the interstates, states would still have an incentive to maintain them to allow trucks, buses and cars to move around. But they would become less tolerant of maintaining roads for the benefit of through traffic, and might install tolls on their borders. In that case, even more long distance freight might shift to trains, before being loaded on trucks.
Air travel requires a huge subsidy. Who pays for the airports?
-Hank
(Who pays for airports). Dedicated taxes on airline travel, over and above the regular taxes all businesses pay.
[re who pays for airports]
Special taxes on airline travel are only part of the story. Airlines and other airplane owners have to pay substantial landing fees for the right to use airports. I recall reading somewhere that it costs over $1,000 to land a passenger jet at a commercial airport. And that was some time ago, so I'd imagine the fee is larger now. Larger airports also get substantial revenue from all the businesses that operate in their terminals and elsewhere on their property.
< We'd all like what PATH has, a super-system that someone else pays for. >
What makes PATH a super-system--implied a great bargain for a buck? True, you can go from Newark to NYC for a buck, and that's a bargain. But PATH only goes to a handful of places. Go anywhere else, and you have to pay more.
For $1.50 you can go from almost anywhere in NYC to almost anywhere else, by a combination of subways, buses, ferry, SIRT ...
And if you're paying as much as $1.50, you're not really trying. $1.36 with a $15 MetroCard or less with a weekly or monthly.
PATH is more like the restaurant that charges you a dime for a great peanut butter sandwich, than $2.00 for a glass of water.
[Yeah, but then you have the problem of securing the ROW. Enough vandals cut through the fences as is, and many stations have entrances that are unsuitable for the placement of turnstiles. You'd also need to employ some type of surveilence system, or man the stations, all of which will cost significantly more than a simple POP system, or the old system where the conductor or trainmen handled cash fares. I fully expect to see MVMs at some stations that previously had TVMs, but no fare controls.]
It's just a matter of time before they come up with a Metrocard machine that will be small enough for the conductor to carry as he moves through the train and swipes cards.
What happened that they stopped collecting fares on the train?
Chip
Metrocard. No way to collect the fares from them.
-Hank
[While looking around the FTA website for ridership data, I came upon a financial profit of the NYCTA for 1997. That year, the subways had an operating expense per passenger of $1.17. Less than the fare. Now it is true that capital expenses are on top of that. But it is also true that those expenses include some which are paid for by taxes for automobiles -- the roadbed infrastructure. The same is true for the operation of the signals.
The buses, on the other hand, cost $1.70 per trip, even though the bus division doesn't have to pay to maintain the road. The LIRR and Metro North don't do so well either.]
I suspect that the dismal financial performance of the commuter rail lines is due in significant part to the fact that they're *commuter* lines. In other words, their ridership is heavily concentrated in weekday rush hours. That forces their labor and especially equipment expenditures to be far higher than they'd have to be if ridership were more evenly distributed. In contrast, the subway probably does not have such a pronounced "peaking" phenomenon (ridership obviously is higher during rush hours, but not to quite the same extent).
For starters, leaving out capital is like pretending the cost of running a factory is solely the day to day utilities and wages--with nothing either to pay off the investment in land, building, or machinery, let alone inventory not yet sold. In turn a prudent organization sets aside funds for maintenance. It is exactly this sort of flim flam accounting/policy which leads to situationms like Manhattan Bridge. No rigorous allocation of continuing investment was made resulting in the "surprise" that that the deferred maintenance had caught up. In turn does the $1.17 figure count the 'transit police' ? Last I knew they were no longer a separate TA force but part of NYPD. Beware accountants they can show a profit or loss on demand.
< While looking around the FTA website for ridership data, I came upon a financial profit of the NYCTA for 1997. That year, the subways had an operating expense per passenger of $1.17. Less than the fare. Now it is true that capital expenses are on top of that. But it is also true that those expenses include some which are paid for by taxes for automobiles -- the roadbed infrastructure. The same is true for the operation of the signals. >
This is true only after all subsidies are accounted for.
< The buses, on the other hand, cost $1.70 per trip, even though the bus division doesn't have to pay to maintain the road. >
All of these statistics are now obsolete. Up to 1997 New York City Transit was hoarding revenues and shifting expenses to produce an operating surplus to fund the MetroCard transfers and passes.
Post-MC operating statistics will look much different, especially insofar as bus-subway transfers were instituted.
< The LIRR and Metro North don't do so well either. Got to believe the subway fares are being tranferred to Metro North and (especially) the LIRR. >
"Got to believe" doesn't make it so. LIRR/MNRR/NYCT keep separate accounts dipping into separate revenue streams. In fact, in 1991, when the MTA ordered the LIRR to make service cuts it was revealed that the MTA secretly made two "loans" to the TA from the LIRR account totaling $135 million. $45 million of this was "forgiven" (by whom?). Never found out what happened to the other $90 million.
While LIRR riders pay a lower percentage of operating expenses from the farebox, the state subsidy is actually lower than for the TA. This is made up for by the fact that the local share is much higher. That means money paid by Nassau and Suffolk counties through local taxes and through the various MTA surcharges on the sales tax, utility bills, etc.
(MTA agencies keep separate accounts).
In theory. In practice, I'd bet they shift money around. Heck, you just gave an example of a shift of money from the LIRR to the subway. If nothing else, they can just take the state aid payments and give more to one agency that to another. Are state aid payments returned based on ridership? Based on taxes paid in by residents of each jurisdiction? No, its based on power, and the power now is everyone against NYC. If things weren't bad enough already, there seems to be a Democrat-Republican join effort to lower the quality of life in the city before mid-2000, to thwart Rudy's Senate campaign.
My friend, you are mistaken.
New York City residents are 40% of the state, yet feel they are the entire state.
On the contrary, it is you who is mistaken. It's us, the 60% of the state who don't acknowledge the 40% that is NYC. That's why NYC does not get it's fair share of state monies - ever....
That's true. Hostility to the city seems to be high, and growing. When the city's economy was down, people were hostile to it because it was perceived to be a drain. Then briefly, when the suburban economies tanked too, and the state had a budget crisis, those in the rest of the state realized where all the money comes from, and their was a brief honeymoon. Later, as the city got to its feet, envy set in. No one seems to care that city residents still pay higher taxes and must accept inferior schools than those elsewhere (how many Nassau kids are in trailers?). The fact that the city is not on its knees makes people hostile.
Don't you get the feeling that George Pataki is the governor of the rest of the state, not the state including the city? I do.
All this political whining, moaning and groaning! Sometimes I wonder if New York City, Long Island and Westchester County would not be better off as a state of its own - the hell with all the upstaters!
This way they wouldn't have to care about what went on "downstate".
We'd get our own representation in Congress, etc. Then Il Rudy could run for Governor of this "state"! (Oh NOOOOO!)(just kidding)
Wayne
Acutally, there are a bunch of people upstate who want to kick New York south of I-84 out. We should be encouraging that thinking. Congress would never give us two more Senate seats, though. Any chance we could join New Jersey?
It's interesting to see the debate about who is the tail and who is the dog. It is the same in Il. with Chicago vs the burbs vs downstate, and even the same in the Milwaukee area vs outstate Wis.
If the subway makes a profit it is because the buses feed the system also. The fare cards should help generate revenue for the system and the definition of the system should not be based on mode but the bus and rail service working together to create mobility.
As for the people who ride the LIRR there is not room for the range rovers in the city anyway so let them ride the train to keep their cars out. They need to feed the cab drivers when they are in town anyway.
NO!!!! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Some of us remember Norman Mailer's 51st state campaign when he ran for mayor. the numbers back then were state revenues generated in the 5 BOROS 43% allocated back 16 % PLUS CA CHANGE
Wayne, I'm with you, buddy! Have you guys ever been Upstate? And I don't mean one of the big towns like Ithaca, Albany or Buffalo? I mean one of those smaller 'ghost town' type of municipalities? Man, once you go to the northwestern part of the state most of the inhabitants are "Hillbillies in training". Strange, but true.
Doug aka BMTman
I have been upstate a number of times, though I must confess not lately. However, upstate and downstate are two different worlds.
New York City, LI, Westchester have enough population and industry
to be a separate state. If we went this way, would Staten Island
break off and join NJ?
ONE PROBLEM: Where would we put our prison population? I understand a fair percentage of the prison population at Dannemora, Attica etc.
is from the metro area (correct me if I am wrong). Could we do like DC does and send them "out of state", i.e. continue to send them to the above places.
As a separate state would we be able to put in for a greater share of federal tax dollars to continue to fund all these needed mass transit projects? i.e. 2nd Ave Subway, "N" extension to LGA, One-seat ride to JFK (resurrection of the Rockaway LIRR branch), connection to GCT from Long Island, extension of subway service to eastern and southeast Queens, etc.
Wayne
Not that I'm an advocate of splitting NYS in two, but if it happened I'm sure the upstaters would be more than happy to accept downstates prisons. Building a new prison is huge business upstate and the towns fight like dogs to get prisons built there.
There could be a welfare problem, though. I don't know if the rules have changed, but during the 80's a large number of welfare families moved upstate to take advantage of a loophole in the NYS welfare system. Seems welfare benefits were the same statewide despite huge differences in the cost of living.
The split between the productive and parasite segments is common in most states as well as in general accross the US. Despite the so-called one man-one vote attempts at redistricting, the Republicans have gutted attempts to accurately count the jammed together immigrant workers who keep the cities functioning(and trim their suburban lawns!). In turn, recent studies have indicated the inequitable glomming of infrastructure funds by the newest richest 'burbs who have sucessfully seceeeded from the taxing arm of the urban cores which support them. The per rider subsidy figures are truly obscene in the SF Bay Area. BART riders from the farther ends of the line pay almost nothing relative to the SF and East Bay urban bus/trolley riders, yet they whine when asked to pay for parking at the huge lots surrounding the stations.
I just picked up a book (looks overly theoretical, but interesting nontheless) from the library on the development of BART that addresses just this issue:
"Urban Elites and Mass Transit: The Dialectics of Power"
I'll drop y'all a review when I'm done with it.
< ONE PROBLEM: Where would we put our prison population? I understand a fair percentage of the prison population at Dannemora, Attica etc. is from the metro area (correct me if I am wrong). Could we do like DC does and send them "out of state", i.e. continue to send them to the above places. >
I don't think there is any Constitutional reason why not. NYC/State would have to negotiate terms with NYS/State
< As a separate state would we be able to put in for a greater share of federal tax dollars to continue to fund all these needed mass transit projects? i.e. 2nd Ave Subway, "N" extension to LGA, One-seat ride to JFK (resurrection of the Rockaway LIRR branch), connection to GCT from Long Island, extension of subway service to eastern and southeast Queens, etc. >
Herein is a major rub. New York City is very unbeloved in much of the nation. To get the goodies, NYCState would have to start acting like a lot of the rest of the country to get what it needs.
As a starter, pick the best people for Senators and Congressmen and stick with them. Seniority is what gets the goodies. NYS and NYC are both SOL these days because we had two Senators with clout. Now we will have two legislative babies.
(Two Senators with clout) New York State gets back 86 cents on every dollar it sends to Washington. It also gets more housing and Medicaid dollars than everywhere else, meaning everything else is REALLY shortchanged. It's the same deal the city gets from the state. In exhcange for taxing itself into the group for the hospital industry, it gets to have less of everything else.
Do the suburbs have lower taxes, as a share of their residents' personal income? Consult the 1997 Census of Governments Compendium of Government Finances for the answer. Not that suburban taxes are low compared with the U.S. Just compared with NYC.
< Do the suburbs have lower taxes, as a share of their residents' personal income? Consult the 1997 Census of Governments Compendium of Government Finances for the answer. Not that suburban taxes are low compared with the U.S. Just compared with NYC >
Is there a source for this on the Internet? Can you quote relevant figures? Do the figures include taxes actually paid by individuals, or are they taxes paid by individuals and business together? Whenever former Mayor Koch used to receive calls that said that the City sent more to Albany than it received, he always used to say that it was Big Business in New York City that sent the excess taxes, not the citizens, and that the businesses derived the earnings from those taxes nationally or internationally, not just in the City.
I pay no local income tax, nor do I work in the City, but I pay the same state income tax as a city person, the same sales tax and MTA surcharges, and much higher mass transit fees if I use the railroad. I pay over $7000/year on my three-bedroom Cape Cod house in a working-class neighborhood. I watch the real estate sales in the Sunday Times and a house like mine typically has taxes of $1700-$2000 in the City. So I would have to pay $5000 in City income tax to pay as much in local tax as a similarly situated city resident.
Using the most recent city/state tables (I have a small business, so get these--but you can look these up at http://www.tax.state.ny.us/pdf/1999/wt/nyc_with_tax_tables.pdf) the most tax disadvantaged NYC taxpayer (Single, zero exemptions, standard deduction) would have to make in excess of $170,000 to pay $5000 in city income tax. Trust me. Noone in my neighborhood makes $170,000. In fact, the statistic is that the average commuter to the city, therefore most of the better paid, average half that.
So where is the source of the higher taxes you say NYC people on average pay?
There's another thing. Let's assume for the sake of argument that other things being equal, NYC residents pay more state and local taxes than do suburbanites. We're still left with a less "painful" tax burden in the city. That's because income taxes are the main part of the city resident's tax burden, and thanks to payroll withholding the taxes don't seem too bad - the money's not there in the paychecks to begin with. In contrast, the property taxes that are the big issue in the suburbs have to be paid out of pocket, usually as a part of one's mortgage payment. Obviously, it could be argued that the economic impact of a tax liability of X dollars in the same whether it's withheld or paid outright. But perceptions are a different matter, and they make suburban taxes seem more onerous.
< We're still left with a less "painful" tax burden in the city. That's because income taxes are the main part of the city resident's tax burden, and thanks to payroll withholding the taxes don't seem too bad - the money's not there in the paychecks to begin with. In contrast, the property taxes that are the big issue in the suburbs have to be paid out of pocket, usually as a part of one's mortgage payment. >
I'm not sure that's true. I think most people see their mortgage payment (with taxes included) as their cost of housing, only slightly different than paying rent.
( OTOH, many seniors who have paid off their mortgages troop down to Town Hall twice a year to shell out $$thousands at a pop -- that helps explain why some dutifully troop to the school budget votes )
But your overall point is a good one. Since I'm a small businessman, I see _all_ my taxes up close and personal. I don't have the fantasy that "the boss" pays half my social security, and I know the true rate of that tax is about 15%. I also have to pay unemployment insurance taxes for myself, even though I can't collect them.
If people had to write a check every month (or even better, count out cash) for their taxes, as I do, they'd be a lot less tolerant of them.
I agree that NYC's taxes are less onerous in one sense. When you have a good year financially, you pay more in the city, because the local income tax is progressive. But if you lose your job or retire, your taxes go down in the city, but not in the suburbs. I like that better.
Of course, rich people who have a great year every year prefer the suburbs.
The biggest problem the city faces is that to fund public services at a lower rate than the suburbs, it has to DOUBLE tax business. Commercial property tax PLUS local corporate income tax and (in Manhattan) commercial rent tax. If you start your own business, personal income tax plus unincorporated business tax. The liberal fantasy that city residents do not pay these taxes is false. We pay -- in lost jobs.
Of course, rich people who have a great year every year prefer the suburbs.
Nope. No rich people in the City. When it was proposed that rent control be ended for City people making $100,000 or more, advocates were screaming: "What? $100,000 in the City is nothing!" Get your stories straight, guys...
How does 86 cents on the dollar rank among all the states. It actually sounds like it might be one of the better figures, when you consider the amount of $$$ the federal govt. sends overseas or spends on defense (I would assume that these $ don't get allocated to any state).
If you want to see which states gain/lose on federal taxes/spending, check out www.nemw.org, federal spending. The Northeast gets screwed.
< If you want to see which states gain/lose on federal taxes/spending, check out www.nemw.org, federal spending. The Northeast gets screwed. >
This relates to what seems to me to be one of the great puzzles of the Northeast. Sure, Wyoming gets 150 cents on the dollar, but 150% of not much is not much more.
A great deal of the nation's wealth is in the Northeast but when Republicans want to lower Federal taxes, the very people who get the least from the Feds want the taxes to stay up. Do we really need to send mass quantities of $$$ to Washington and then beg to get them back?
Seems to me, the less we send Washington, the more there is to keep at home. Doesn't this make sense to anyone else?
(Not send so many $$$ to Washington. Does this make sense to anyone else?) YES! My motto is, you pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and lets cut out the middlemen in Washington and Albany.
Depends who you define "We" as. Regionally, yes it makes sense. But who would be keeping the majority of those $$$ at home? Upper eastsiders? When republicans propose tax cuts, they are for the >$70,000 crowd, and they pay for them by cutting Housing, Healthcare etc. Even Republican mayors of big Northeastern cities with large concentrations of poor and working class people know that they could not do without those federal housing & healthcare $, or there would be riots in the streets.
The federal gov't provides a convenient bugaboo for state & local politicians who want to blame the need to maintain a minimal level of social services on someone else. This straw man is worth a lot to avowedly anti-government politicians; that is why they do not challenge it. That's why you don't see regional opposition to federal taxation rates.
I am also tired of seeing transit get the shaft, but I don't think that keeping current federal tax $ "at home" would steer any more of that money to transit. Transit will not get any more $ for 2nd ave or anything else unless/until the local elite decides it is in their interest (as has happened in San Jose, CA, for example).
Back in the Dinkins Administration, I was given the thankless job of writing a section of a Planning and Zoning report on behalf of the Planning Commission. Their answer for every problem was more federal money. They couldn't conceive of New York paying its own way for anything.
Finally, I asked if the city got a fair share of federal spending. "No" those worthies shouted, "we get back less than our fair share, and less than we put in." They why, I asked, did they want the federal government to raise taxes, and drain even more money out. The ADDITIONAL money, the money the FEDs DON'T have, is the money that would go to New York, they said.
Dinkins endorsed Clinton early. These folks all assumed that because this is a Democratic City, Clinton (Arkansas), Gore (Tennesee), and Gephart (Missouri) would cut a deal with Gingrich (Georgia) and Dole (Kansas) followed by Lott (Mississippi) to give the city a better deal. Better to be part of the winning coalition than the losing coalition, they said. Forget it. NYC is the part of the coalition the Dems can take for granted, and teh GOP uses as a whipping boy.
What's the deal? Northeast Liberal "we want to spend money." Southern (or Upstate) Conservative "we don't want to." Northeast Liberal "lets make a deal." Southern (or Upstate Conservative) "OK we get most of the money, you pay most of the taxes, and we blame you for being freeloading big spenders." Northeast Liberal: "DEAL"
Time to call the bluff. Did you see John Tierney's column in the Times today. The data is there for all to see, and people are catching on.
[I am also tired of seeing transit get the shaft, but I don't think that keeping current federal tax $ "at home" would steer any more of that money to transit. Transit will not get any more $ for 2nd ave or anything else unless/until the local elite decides it is in their interest (as has happened in San Jose, CA, for example).]
You've touched on an often-overlooked point regarding the Second Avenue debacle. The neighborhood that would most be benefitted by the line is the Upper East Side, which is of course full of wealthy big shots. If these big shots had turned out _en masse_ to demand completion of the line back in the 1970s, you can rest assured that we'd be zipping along under Second Avenue today. The fiscal crisis of the time, which led to the line-killing Beame Shuffle, wouldn't have been an obstacle. Unfortunately, the big shots were strangely silent back then, and didn't demand completion of the line. In fact, they seem to have maintained this silence ever since. Don't they realize how much they'd benefit from the subway?
(Big shots would benefit from 2nd Ave subway). I beg to differ. The Upper East Side is occupied by three classes of people. The big shots are permanent residents who DO NOT ride the subway. They take cabs and limos. The merely affluent permanent residents do ride the subway, but there are fewer of them, and despite earning the high five or low six figures, so much of their income goes to rent that there is none left for campaign contributions.
Finally, you have young people passing through. They are educated and affluent in assets if not money (yet), and they ride the subway, but they know they will be in the burbs before the line is built, while they would have to live with the disruption of construction.
The City of Renters thing hurts us. People do not take the long view.
< The City of Renters thing hurts us. People do not take the long view. >
Amen.
Friends of mine were renters in Cambridge, Mass. for decades. These are people who, I know, are of more modest means than many sitting on rent-controlled housing in NYC. They stayed in barely adequate housing, with no repairs and barely enough services because they had rent control, and if the apartment wasn't so hot, they could afford it, the schools are good, and it was walking distance to Harvard Square.
Massachusetts ended all rent control about a year or so ago (I think it was only in Cambridge, Boston and Brookline). Although the landlord wasn't going to raise them to market rent, they saw the handwriting on the wall. They bought a small but well maintained house, still reasonably close to Harvard Square, they're fixing it up to suit themselves and, when and if they attain their dream of moving to a rural area when the kids are grown up, they'll have something to sell.
Norman Thomas, the famous New York Socialist thought that people should own the space they live in, even if it's an apartment.
Those figures require a pretty big leap of faith in order to claim that New York is getting the shaft relative to other states. The study only considers domestic spending, and then scales up each states percentage on a pro rata basis to factor in overseas spending.
To clarify, the New York per capita tax burden is 6,861 while receiving $5,272 or 77%. For the average US citizen, the burden is $5,765 while they receive $5,133, or 89%. The study brings total spending to equal total receipts by dividing by 0.89.
The flaw here is that the assumption is that all foreign spending benefits citizens across each state equally. But even the most casual observer of US politics knows that isn't true. Look at the big ticket items overseas - Aid to Russia, Asia and South America and Mid-east peace efforts, including ongoing efforts in Iraq.
Surely nobody can argue with a straight face that those efforts benefit your average Iowan or Wyomingian (yeah, I made that one up) as much as it does your average New Yorker. Just consider how much of the time of the NY congressional delegation is spent on foreign affairs.
[New York City is very unbeloved in much of the nation. To get the goodies, NYCState would have to start acting like a lot of the rest of the country to get what it needs.]
I'm not sure that "unbeloved" is quite the correct word. National attitudes toward NYC are hard to figure out. Clearly, there's a significant degree of fascination with the city, witness the number of TV shows and movies set there. Yet there's also plenty of scorn and contempt for what's viewed as NYC's drunken-sailor-on-shore-leave levels of social service spending. These contrasting 'tudes really can't be summed up in a single word.
However, the Constitution prohibits forming a state out of any other state. (I know, the Union/Lincoln gov't conviently ignored that part when they allowed the 4 western counties of Virgina (the 4 that refused to seceed) to join the Union as West Virginia.) Might be interesting to see what would happen if.....
Some people refer to the prohibition in the discussion of what to do with the "unrepresented" in our National Capital. DC was formed out of a part of Maryland, with assent. Make DC a State, and.......
Well, the constitution bans redraw of state boundaries without congressional approval, and the Lincoln congress did approve the entrance of WV. Also, WV entered on a loophole because it was split in the Confederacy.
Although it hasn't happened, and may well never, the legislation that admitted Texas into the Union contained a provision that the state could be divided into a total of five states at some future time. I don't have a copy of the legislation in front of me, but if I remember my Constitutional Law professor correctly, only the Texas legislature needs to approve it, with entry of the "new" states to take place at a time to be established in the legislation (but not less than three (?) months after the legislation passes).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[ 51st state ? ]
Seriously, guys, I've watched 51st State proposals for the 26 years I was a City resident and for a similar period since. I've read the rationales and viewed them both from the experience of having been a resident of both City and suburb.
In recent years I would say I would support, but not advocate, the current five boroughs being a separate state. Why? NYC and the rest of the state have become so contentious that it begins to create problems of governance.
However, I would give one major caution: the results would likely not be at all what advocates would expect.
To Larry, Wayne and all other interested parties: I have to go back and find my sources on this, but I recall -- while reading about local history -- that there was talk of a 'State of Long Island' being formed sometime around the period of the Civil War and that Brooklyn was to have been it's capitol. I believe the counties of Kings, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk were planning to secede from the Union if we hadn't entered the war (I will try and get the particulars on this as I'm sure some of you guys might find this 'acient history' of interest.)
Later, Doug aka BMTman
Doug, aka BMT Man wrote:
"I believe the counties of Kings, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk were planning to secede from the Union if we hadn't entered the war "
AFAIK, what is now Nassau County was then part of Queens County.
[Hostility to the city seems to be high, and growing. When the city's economy was down, people were hostile to it because it was perceived to be a drain. Then briefly, when the suburban economies tanked too, and the state had a budget crisis, those in the rest of the state realized where all the money comes from, and their was a brief honeymoon. Later, as the city got to its feet, envy set in. No one seems to care that city residents still pay higher taxes and must accept inferior schools than those elsewhere (how many Nassau kids are in trailers?). The fact that the city is not on its knees makes people hostile.]
Deja vu all over again. As we've discussed here many times before, suburban taxes are no bargain. It's just not possible to state categorically that city taxes are a greater burden than suburban taxes. You are correct in saying that the quality of education and other services tends to be better in the suburbs. Yet I would caution against attributing that to deliberate political policy. Other factors inherent in city vs. suburban lifestyles come into play. For example, you're simply not going to be able to have an extensive mass-transit network in most suburbs due to low population density. As a result, car-less people, who tend to be lower-income and more likely to have various social service needs, will be more likely to live in the city.
As far as the "hostility" factor is concerned, keep in mind that it works both ways. Some suburbanities do indeed regard the city as a modern-day Sodom and Gomorrah. Or, what's more likely, they ridicule the city's profilgate spending on dimwitted social service and health programs. But then you have your city residents who think of suburbanities as hillbillies with three teeth who marry their cousins at age 12. This sort of viewpoint is aided and abetted by the clearly anti-suburban Times. What seems to be forgotten is that both forms of hostility are uncalled-for. Most city residents don't spend their time demanding more taxpayer money for homeless drug addicts with AIDS, while most suburban residents aren't rednecks with gun racks and Confederate flags on their pickups.
"As we've discussed here many times before, suburban taxes are no bargain. It's just not possible to state categorically that city taxes are a greater burden than suburban taxes. "
Although I have to say, in my experience, suburban taxes have always been way less than urban taxes. I worked in suburban Philly but lived in the city. If I lived in the suburbs, or lied as most of my co-workers did, my taxes would have been 4.85% less out of my total income. When I moved from NJ to NY my local taxes almost trippled. I'm not a homeowner but my rent does factor in property taxes charged to the landlord - and my rent certainly didn't go down when I moved to philly or NYC.
"As a result, car-less people, who tend to be lower-income and more likely to have various social service needs, will be more likely to live in the city. "
So those with greater needs are the responsibility of the city, not the state? And this is a justification for them - and many others who just happen to live in the city to receive a substandard education?
"while most suburban residents aren't rednecks with gun racks and Confederate flags on their pickups."
Obviously you've never lived in the suburb of Philadelphia known as Newark Delaware - since those were my neighbors to a tee. My other immediate neighbor was a failed mechanic who dealt coke, lived with his grandmother, and always complained about how the homeless shelter down the block had destroyed the neighborhood. Go figure. And before anyone argues that Newark isn't a suburb of philly - SEPTA goes there (manditory transit content), all of its media is from philly, and it's only a 25 min drive from philly (40 to center city). If you haven't noticed, Delaware is a touchy subject for me. Even though I grew up in a city (philly) I never really disliked the suburbs until I had to live in them for 4 years. After having to walk 1.5 miles just to buy groceries (I was too poor to own a car) - being attacked by skinheads and then ignored by the local police - and in general being treated like a freak because I happened to be openly gay - Newark taught me to HATE suburbia. I swore I would never compromise on where I live again. So now I live in Manhattan.
I go upstate to REAL farm country all the time -- my in-laws live there. A New York City politician will not earn any votes for promising to screw the suburbs and upstate. Upstate and suburban politicians earn many votes by promising to screw the city.
That attitude goes for me to. Rural New York is poor, and no city resident would want to see anyone go without. But when people living off our dime pour out hostility mixed with contempt for so long, you start to get angry.
As for the suburbs, they aren't living off our dime -- since they are rich. But the do seem to have decided that the metropolitan area's poor are the responsibility of those who happen to live near them, and they fight like hell to keep poor people out.
As a result of the burden of the poor of the city, and the poor and non-poor of upstate, city residents receive inferior services in exchange for lower taxes. This keeps the economy down. At the national average (62.5 percent of all adults employed), 600,000 more New Yorkers would be working. 600,000!
Well, from my travel experiences most of the 'hostility' toward New York comes from the more rural areas of the country, ie, the deep south and the western plaines states. If you go to the west coast or Florida -- due to the number of former and/or bi-coastal types -- there are more pro-NYC folks living there.
Also, I find that alot of the love/hate feelings for NYC have to do -- to a certain extent -- with educational background. Those with some college or a degree enjoy the city and tend not to be swayed by news headlines. Those who tend to have had no serious education past high school tend to have feelings of scorn for city residents. Just an observation, but thought it was worth posting.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
["As a result, car-less people, who tend to be lower-income and more likely to have various social service needs, will be more likely to live in the city. "
So those with greater needs are the responsibility of the city, not the state? And this is a justification for them - and many others who just happen to live in the city to receive a substandard education?]
No, I certainly don't think that the poor should be solely the city's responsibility. That would be unfair. My only point was that certain characteristics of city living - the easy availability of mass transit being a major factor - means that the city will drawn in the poor and troubled from elsewhere. Remember the case from the Times that Larry cited a couple of weeks ago, the formerly middle-class couple from New Jersey that became heroin addicts? They ended up as skells in Harlem. I didn't find that surprising at all. It's a lot easier to live on the streets in Manhattan than in some upscale suburb. This natural "attraction" for the down-and-out will exist regardless of deliberate political policies, and will be hard to change.
Peter, how true. The city is perfect for those who want to (or are forced) to become 'anonymous'. In suburbia, anyone living a 'bohiemian lifestyle' with stick out like a sore thumb. I concur completely.
Doug aka BMTman
< Peter, how true. The city is perfect for those who want to (or are forced) to become 'anonymous'. In suburbia, anyone living a 'bohiemian lifestyle' with stick out like a sore thumb. I concur completely >
Actually, Doug, that's not necessarily true. I thought that, too, before I moved to the surburbs. Where I am, you have all sorts of "unconventional" (in the Ozzie and Harriet sense) lifestyles, including a growing gay community, including homeowners.
The person who puts a dead car on blocks in his front yard or leaves his dog out barking all night is going to attract attention faster than a couple of guys (or gals--or more than a couple) who mind their own business.
Sure, you've got the guy who threatens you if you walk your dog on his side of the street and the old lady who always stares out her window at everyone going by, but I had those in Brooklyn, too.
But then if you go far enough out there everybody knows your name (and your business) and always refrers to your house by the name of the prevoius owner (or the one before that one). But then that's country and not the suburbs anymore ... you know, beyond where the buses & raillines go.
Mr Swamp Yankee :-)
...most suburban residents aren't rednecks with gun racks and Confederate flags on their pickups.
We're not?!?! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse (your friendly North Carolina Jewish redneck now living in New Jersey)
(Nassau kids in trailers)
Actually there probably are quite a few. In the town where I grew up, the school in the most affluent part of town had about 15 classrooms in trailers for all of my 13 years in the district.
In most of the population centers in Nassau available building space was gone 20 years ago. Since the suburban school districts tend to be managed just a smidgeon better than the city, they managed to misuse space wildly. Almost every South Shore district in Nassau closed schools when enrollment fell in the 80's and either sold the buildings and land or even worse allowed long term low cost leases. Now with enrollments rising again, they're scrambling for space. My old district is sub-leasing space from a tenant that they gave a 50-year lease to.
You are of course correct. Even in very small ways, this is done. All TA vehicles are equipped with EZPass. At the end of the month, do you think that MTA-NYCT writes a check to MTA-Bridges & Tunnels? There are also cooperative ventures with Metro-Card and monthly commutation fares. I doubt that auditors for LIRR and NYCT get together to cut up the pie every month.
In case anyone asks:
The official rule:
All NYCT employees must pay when we ride the LIRR or metro North and they must pay to ride the subway. MTA Bridges and Tunnel employees also must pay to ride the subways. Police ride free as do firemen(in turnout coat ONLY. LIRR,Metro North Police ride free only if they are conductng an investigation in the subway.
Unofficially some NYCT employees can ride on LIRR for free and some of their people get buzzed in. Same for NJT, Amtrak and Greyhound(Yes, I know it is a bus company) along with Academy Bus drivers
The practice of 'courtesy rides' is very common everywhere but on the NYCT. Oddly enough, LIRR and MNRR will accept the pass of AMTRAK and NJT employees sooner than they will from NYCT employees. This is beause of the union affilliations and universal reciprocation. There is no such union affilliation between LIRR and NYCT nor is there the frequent reciprocation by NYCT employees.
A-N-D even in the same TWU local 100 TA employees can't ride for free on the DOT "private" buses and vice versa.
Mr t__:^)
A school teacher friend of mine from Franklin Square told me she gets to work in Harlem by taking the N6 on Hempstead Turnpike westbound. It drops her off at the last/first stop of the F at 179th St. in Jamacia. She then takes the F to Lexington Ave, switch to the #6 and go uptown. She just reverses the run for the evening rush hour.
Obviously, this is a much longer (and less comfortable) trip than taking the LIRR, but the savings can't be beat. By using her MetroCard, there is no additional fare going from Nassau Bus to the NYCT and vis-versa.
See, sometimes $1.50 can go A LONG WAY.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually, it may not even take that much longer. Getting from Penn Station to Lexington in the 100's is probably a 30-40 minute ordeal by itself.
B-U-T not all Nassau folks can do this. We have a few customers on the Q25/Q34 that switch from the N4 (LI via Merrick Road to Jamaica) who have to pay a double fare because they have to walk a couple of blocks to make the connection. I actually wrote DOT in their behalf asking the TA & LI bus to permit a free Transfer ... they haven't said no yet
(Yes, this tail is trying to wag the dog again)
Mr t__:^)
[We have a few customers on the Q25/Q34 that switch from the N4 (LI via Merrick Road to Jamaica) who have to pay a double fare because they have to walk a couple of blocks to make the connection.]
Hello Thurston, try this one:
In Chicago on CTA, a transfer can be used on the same route in the opposite direction, the same route in the same direction (stop-over), or on another route(s); however, it must be done within two (2) hours of validation.
Again, the CTA is ahead of the MTA!
Jim K.
Chicago
Re: Transfers [Again, the CTA is ahead of the MTA!]
Yes you guys are either ahead of us or one of the suits there has realized that the more COMPLEX you make the system, the more problems you have. With all the "unlimited" fare cards in use it doesn't make much since to have such a complex authorized/not-auth Transfers system for those customers who: pay in cash, get a paper transfer or use a "value" fare card.
P.S. We've also experienced problems with other pieces of this system that were programmed WRONG, e.g. a couple of "step-up" connections (Local to Express) where the customers were being charged 1.5 + 3.00
The good news is that the TA fixed those rather quickly once we pointed them out to them (it helped that I could duplicate the problem in the shop, and therefore offer proof).
Mr t(ail) of the dog
The weather we had couldn't have been any better!
I biked over from Jamaica Bay to the Ave X facility where I meet two of our fellow SubTalkers, Thurston and Ed from New Jersey (HI GUYS AND GLAD YOU COULD MAKE IT! -- sorry for that gratuitous "shout out").
The CI yard crew did a fabulous job at being tour guides. We first viewed a very good video showcasing the varied work done at the yard. Then it was time for the walking tour. First, we visited the main yard which led us right to the main course -- The Yard Tower where we got a GREAT bird's eye view of everything. Next, it was on to the main overhaul shop where R-40s and R-68s were awaiting TLC on the work bays.
The longest part of the tour took place in the wheel and truck facility. Unfortunately, since this was the weekend after all, there were no work crews busy with the equipment. But the tours of the wheel truing and the Magnaflux areas were still quite interesting.
And of course it was a treat to see a diehard AB Standard in the shop awaiting a complete restoration. As well, a slant R-40, R-4 and an R-27 were all up on horses and minus their truck assemblies. It's good to know that one track in the yard has been reserved for "Museum Restoration" projects that included two Low-Vs, an IND Work Motor, three non-revenue cars, a redbird, and the infamous "Money Train".
Not a bad tour at all. Definitely worth more than the $15 entrance fee (we also got a ball cap, key chain and a CI yard 'press kit').
Hope they offer it again next year!
cya, Doug aka BMTman
If they do I will go for sure. I had dental work this morning so I couldn't get there. But I will try again next time, just as long as I know in advance.
I thought they wrecked the Money Train (along with R30 #8408) in "Earthquake in New York".
Did you see "Frankenslant" on the major overhaul track? I've been pledged to keep its infamous car number a secret (it was originally an R40M), but if you were there and saw it yourselves, it's no secret any more. Was that the R40 you saw minus its truck assembly?
It is a comfort to hear that the R40s are being tended to in their golden years and that they may continue to provide service for years to come.
Wayne
Wayne, I'd guess that slant R-40 we saw was indeed "Frankenslant" since it had alot of welding done to the front end. It was also missing it's headlights, windows and the interior was completely gutted.
It was a very sad sight. But like I said, we were told it would be put back in service at some point.
Doug aka BMTman
Wayne, as explained by our tour guide, the production crew of 'Money Train' worked with the CI yard to modify three R-26 cars into the armored trains we saw in the film.
The one in the Coney yards was used for whatever little filming was done in New York. So, the car runs on third rail power NOT diesel. It was the filming in LA that used the other two cars that had been converted into diesel-running units. One was for principal filming and the other was the 'stunt' car (machine-gun sequence).
I thought there had only been one built, with a miniature used for the end scene where it falls off the tracks. Now I know better.
Doug aka BMTman
The MONEY TRAIN car at CONEY ISLAND YARD is actually a R22, not a R-26. There were three R-22's rebuilt by CONEY ISLAND SHOP in 1995/6 to that configuration for the movie. Out of the three, two cars, along with some R-30's, were trucked to Los Angeles in Feb, 96, while one car (the one at CIY) stayed in New York for shotting scenes here.
Ray
Oops! Thanks for correcting me. Going from memory is a bad thing, particularly when it is easy to confuse R-22 and R-26 cars.
Am I correct in stating that those R-30s were the ones we also saw in "Die Hard with a Vengence"?
Doug aka BMTman
The same fleet of cars was used in Money Train, Die Hard with a Vengence, and Godzilla, actually. Check the Movies List, I try to list car numbers where possible.
Doug's description of the tour is right-on and it was very enjoyable. The TA personnel involved couldn't have been nicer and more helpful. Doug did omit one of the post-tour side benefits - Thurston, he and I each had a hot dog at Nathan's. We couldn't get so close to that famous landmark without partaking! If a similar tour is offered in the future (and it might be, because it was a sellout), everyone should try to go.
I quite agree Doug!
A trip to Coney Island Yard & being taken to Nathan's too, made my weekend!
Viewing that vast site with all its interesting rolling stock was truly breathtaking, when of course nothing in London now compares.
Seeing the 'Money Train', 1916 BMT, R6, R10 all made the trip from London (for the weekend!) all worthwhile.
Thanks go to all TA staff, fellow ERA members & others who made David and myself so welcome.
Hey, Colin! Was it you who took my picture with the R-40? I was wearing my old TA cap and a 'Bike New York' T-shirt. You and David were decked out with track-workers' attire if I recall?
If that was you, thanks again and it was a fun time. Maybe next time you and David can get together with Thurston, Sid and myself for lunch at Nathan's Famous! (and compare London/New York rail systems)
Best, Doug aka BMTman
For me it was a 8 hour mass transit day: 7:45 LIRR - F - Tour - N - LIRR 3:45. I will echo Doug & Sid's comments ... it was great.
It actually seemed much like a "field trip" since we three locals weren't the only SubTalkers present for the tour. I rode in (on the F) with two guys from Philly (Hi Ron & Steve), and met a couple of guys in from London.
We also got to meet Mike Hanna, the TA Museum restore chief. This gave the tour a little bonus, e.g. he was glad to explain what was being done (inside) to the BMT type Bs, the R-4, etc. While I'm on the subject, pardon my plug: Mike can use a few more pair of hands any Tuesday Noon to Midnight, no prior experence necessary.
Mr t__:^)
Well, Thurston, you must know that I've already volunteered my time for Mike's resto crew. Maybe I'll run into some more SubTalkers some Tuesday evening.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
Hi Thurston pleasure meeting you on the tour. Speaking of the tour. I just want to second what everyone else has said about this tour. It was great. I hope they do another one. I have hoped there would have been tour of CI. My dream came true truly very interesting and informitive. Well worth the price. The general public just hasen't a clue of what it takes for them to ride there subway trains.
Hi, Ron! I'm not sure I got to meet you, but am glad you were able to make it and join in the commraderie.
Probably the only disappointment was that there were no work crews around to show us how they 'do their stuff' in real time. However, the Coney Yard produced video covered some of that anyhow.
Also it would be great if the tour was offered at least twice a year, so those who missed it wouldn't have to wait a whole year to experience the tour.
Doug aka BMTman
Is this a yearly thing? Is it a secret until after it is over?
Jim K.
Chicago
This particular tour was sponsored by the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders' Association. In the past, tours of CI have been run by the NY Transit Museum. If you're a regular reader of SubTalk I posted about this most recent CI tour about a month ago and it was listed for a few days in our new Events List.
-Dave
The tours are awesome!!! I went on a tour way back in 87 right smack in the middle of the overhaul program and saw some R-40's in different stages of the overhaul and saw and learned and appreciated a lot
[I posted about this most recent CI tour about a month ago]
Since I'm neither a member of ERA or TA Museum (but am a member of Branford trolley museum) it was because of Dave's post that I got to go ... Thanks Dave !
Mr t__:^)
Where/how do you contact Mike for the restoration work? I was looking for him after the tour but left after a while.
Pat, I had no idea you were at the tour! Too bad I hadn't known in advance -- I would have introduced myself.
You will receive an e-mail from me later with details on Mike's resto projects.
Doug aka BMTman
It was a "stealth" visit ;-)
Actually, I wasn't sure I was going until I hopped in the car 8 AM saturday and drove north into the city.
Maybe I'll go on the Newark trip.
Pat
The NYCTA said they had a problem with the R-40 slants. They said that
the slants created a "lip" which passengers could ride on. The "lips"
is unsafe 'cause it could cause people to fall?
Anyone could explain what they meant?
This was a problem with the Slant R40 as originally delivered.
Because of the slanted ends, and the lack of protective railings, a large gap (or a "lip", as you are referring to it) existed between the "A" ends. It didn't take the TA long to size this one up. In fact, they went so far as to modify the last 100 cars of the R40 order with straight ends. These are known as the R40M cars. By about 1971 or so, all 300 Slant R40 had been fitted with the heavy guardrails you see on their "A" ends today.
For examples of what the Slant R40 looked like without their protective rails, give a visit to the Illustrated Subway Car Roster, in the "Trains And Stations" section of this web site - and go to the section "R40". You will see that some cars in the older picture do not have their guard rails.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
EYE for one remember many a summer day, in the non-AC days, when lots of folks rode between the cars. Back then they knew enough to hold on
Mr t__:^)
Ah, yes.... the days of riding between ends on the slant R-40s. Back in my high school days it wasn't yet a crime to do so and was quite pleasant (nothing beat a nice breaze on the Brighton embankment!). Nowadays cops will bust balls for doing the same thing me and my pals did 20 years ago.
Thanks for the memories, Thurston.
Doug aka BMTman
Maybe it just wasn't strictly enforced. I remember seeing labels on the storm doors of various cars back then with an image of a cop with his hand out as if to say stop, along with the caption, "Riding between cars is prohibited!"
Oh, yes. I remember. The summer of '84. A train of R-10's to the Rockaways. And going home, I dried out my wet shorts between the second and third cars of an A running with the slants. The old girls go do 50 easy on the flats back then. Especially a solid ten GE ones, without AC. But then again, how often was that?
That would have had to be #4250-4349. They mixed and matched the GE/Westinghouse/AC/Non-AC cars after about 1970. I remember them on the "A" (in fact I have one from 4/6/82 in the snow as my wallpaper).
Now and then I would see a solid A/C train, but not regularly.
The Westinghouse were 4150-4249; the G.E were #4250-4349 NonA/C, #4350-4449 A/C. The R40M were Westinghouse. Some Slants still manage to get up to 50, especially on grades and in the 14th St. Tunnel.
Wayne.
^61 MPH in the 60th Street tube on monday! Slants. Gotta love em.
Well! Splendid! What was your driving motor? Of course, you have the grade helping out. I have a few samples of smokin' Slants: #4150: 52MPH betw.34th & W 4th -- #4399 50MPH in 14th St tube eastbound -- #4314 48MPH level grade betw. Ave.J & Ave.H then 53MPH downgrade into Newkirk (he hit the brakes soon after hitting the peak), #4264 - AT LEAST 50 probably more in 60 St.tube - #4376: 47MPH betw.Pacific and 36th St. etc. etc.
Yes, we GOTTA love 'em. Ugly as they are (with their front end dental work), they're still things of grace and beauty.
Wayne
I love them for the time I spent working on them in 1989 and 1990. 55 and above is a common thing in the 60th Street tube. All you need is a Motorman. Train operators can't handle it.You need Brass Balls, to charge those timers. 60 is only possible when you get right on those signals as they go from red to yellow. A lot of guys get scared, and can't do it.
Sounds like the same chap who charged through the 14th Street tube at 50 while at the helm of #4399 last November 7. He had SOLID CAST BRASS guignoles when it came to the GT's - line 'em up, knock em down. Not a single inch did he give. No fear whatsoever. Simon and I were amazed at his timing and engineering skill, watching intently from the long railfan window. He played those GT's like a Stradivarius.
A run like that is a real thrill. Let me know if your motorman friend drives the "N" slants on the weekend and I'll go for a ride.
Wayne
No problem. Guy's name is Henry Pride. He's also an engineer supervisor for the U.S. Army transportation Corps. Runs freight trains in Connectcuit one weekend a Month. Sat. and Sun. after six in the evening.
On Saturday:
Astoria/Ditmars Stillwell/Coney Island Astoria/Ditmars
18:56 20:19 20:38 22:01
22:56 00:18 00:39 02:00
Give him a ride. Tell him Erik sent you.
And if one of those timers don't clear and you trip and a TSS or Supt. is riding, well, now they got you for speeding/not having your train under control. I guess my balls are spongy!
Especially the last one on G1 track.
Yeah, I came pretty close to hitting that one a few times!
Bill,
Aren't the IND timers 2-shots? (i.e. if you blow one, you don't trip; you only trip if you blow the next one - I hope I'm not way off base on either the terminology or my understanding of timed signals.)
subfan
All timers are the same.It just so happens that timers on the IND lines allow you to go faster than in the BMT.The IND was built for speed.I don't know about timers in the IRT,I never worked there as a Train Operator.The bottom line is that if you are going too fast,whereever you are,the train will be tripped.
The timers on the IND are quite fast. If you go too fast past a yellow with illuminated S, you will almost have to make a full stop as the next signal will stay red to penalize you. If you don't stop, CHOW as we say!
I think a one shot timer is the one with the red with illuminated white light underneath; while a two shot timer is yellow with S underneath (first shot) then it changes to green (second shot). I'll actually have to find a signal maintainer to verify this.
No, I call control immediately, and tell them some kid just pulled the cord in my car. And I saw him do it. I reset it, and yelled at him.:-)
As you said before, we are a team. But, I am in charge of the train. So there's no way I let my Motorman go down, without sticking up for him first.
Morning everybody! You guys don't have ATC Control with the BEEP-BEEP-BEEP like the CTA does here. Or do you? I haven't been on an CTA Subway Train at 60mph and above since the early 1970's. But the R-40's are nice looking to me, I think I did ride on one back in the early 1980's. Motorman in the 60th Street tube must be really skilled to make those "T" time signals without risking running one!
That would be before their GOH (general overhaul) by Sumitomo in 1989.
The interiors were gutted and redone. All non/AC cars were retrofitted with AC. New lighting (old style), they got rid of the straps and replaced them with bars, new color inside (cream yellow).
The seats are not that comfortable, however. But they look real good inside, especially after a good scrub.
Wayne
Wow-weeeee!!! That's what I call a full head of steam! I'll bet that train made it up the grade with ease, as if to say, "OK, R-68s, can you do this?"
I can't help but think what the slants achieved on the downhill run from 50th to 42nd Sts. when they ran on the A. I found that stretch to be almost terrifying.
The ultimate subway drag race: R-10s vs slant R-40s.
Check your E-mail, Steve. As ol' Geo.Jones said:
The Race Is On!
And guess who won!
NO CONTEST!
Wayne
Has anyone considered that the slant end of the R-40 lends the cars to better aerodynamics, particularly in tunnel situations? It could be a factor in their snappy performance.
Certainly, the more boxy NYCT cars would encounter more wind resistance than a sloped car?
Any thoughts on this?
Doug aka BMTman
I agree. The R-40m doesn't do the same speeds in the river tube.
A trully hands down, no contest would have been an R-46 vs. any SMEE cars. Back in the old days, when they could be run in Wayside-Regulated mode. 70 MPH on a straightaway. No problem.
Quite true. Had things turned out differently, the R-46s would be blowing the doors off any and every other piece of rolling stock you could name. Of course, they would have been able to do 70 only on the 2nd Ave. line; existing lines weren't built for such speeds.
Yes, I got your email. It's almost unfair, wouldn't you say? Admittedly, I will always be partial to the R-10s, but since they're no longer with us, your statement sums it up best:
Nothing beats a slant R-40.
Does anyone know if the TA was trying to copy the styling of the BART control cars? I think the BART design was publicized in the late 1960s while the system was still under construction; photos of a mock-up were published in various places. Or is it just a coincidence that these seem to be the only two types of rapid transit cars with slanted ends?
I doubt if the BART car design had anything to do with the R-40 styling. However, Ray Loewy MAY have taken the slant ends of his GG-1 into account when he did the R-40. That to me is more likely the influence. Also the late 60s was the era when futuristic, "Star Trek-like" industrial design elements were introduced into commerical use -- i.e., modular furniture, the sleek SSTs and cigarette boats, etc.).
Any thoughts?
Doug, aka BMTman
Yes, it does seem true that everything in that era had to look "space age" if it was going to be marketable. (The 1964-65 World's Fair was probably the peak of that sort of thing.) It was also around then that the dynamic aerospace companies were thought to have all the answers for the stodgy railroad/transit industries.
It is interesting to note that neither the R-40 nor the BART designs were repeated in later orders. Later BART control cars had flat ends and end doors so that they could be operated mid-train.
Slanted fronts were the `in' design look for the mid-60s. Along with the R-40s and BART, the train at Expo 67 in Montreal had a slanted front as well, though it slanted back towards the body of the car about 2/3s of the way down the front.
Yes, those Expo Express cars had slanted ends as you describe. Although I remember them well, I can't recall if they were 2- or 3- car sets. I do know that Expo Express trains were 6 cars long, and the cars had three sets of doors per side.
Steve: The Expo Express used eight-6 car trains. Only the two outer or "A" cars had cabs at the outer end. They do not appear to have train doors on the outer ends of the cab cars and they also seem to lack mu capable couplers so one six car set could not trainline with another.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I can't recall if the Expo Express cars had storm doors; however, I do remember being able to look through the front end and see the track ahead. It's been a few years; they were still running in 1971, which was the last time I rode on them.
[ The R40 design ]
Remember when the AT&T building was designed with its "Chippendale" roof?
A similar thing was going on when they designed the slant R40. The TA was finally stung by criticism of its ultra-utilitarian Reggie Welsh car designs, so that, essentially, it engaged Raymond Loewy with a "make it look different!" order.
The result was the same old thing with a phantom of the opera front. The TA accepted and manufactured the design without even considering, for example, the danger of passing between end cars with those sharply slanted fronts. I remember the first time I attempted it in the days before they put in the guard structures--it was a bit daunting even for the nimble young fellow I was then.
Yes, especially with those low 90-degree rails. And no chains either, as originally delivered. That's why the "A" end doors were locked. It wasn't until they put the high rails up that I was willing to walk between cars. Of course (being younger and more foolish then), once I
discovered that you could actually STAND out there I began doing that regularly until advised by a Transit Policeman that it was illegal to do so. I still did it occasionally into the mid-80s, especially on the elevated portion of the "B" line if there weren't too many people on the train. I wouldn't dream of doing this nowadays.
Wayne
< ... I discovered that you could actually STAND out there ... >
It never occurred to me to do that--maybe because they didn't often run where they were convenient to me.
The experience must have been like riding outside on a gate car, but more so, with no overhanging roof.
To a earlier post on how the trains stopped in the blackout's of 1965 and 1977, i found a fact in the following book called ''The Great New York City Trivia and Fact Book'' written by K. Kim Taylor, page 30, at a book store near you.
On November 9, 1965 during the blackout 800,000 were trapped in the afternoon rush hour when Manhattan, Brooklyn and the Bronx was hit by a blackout. Power wasn't restored until 13 hours later.
P.S. When you pick up the above mentioned book it also has other facts about the NYC Subway.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
My Father had just left Court Street bound for Broad aboard (his recollection) an R27/30 "TT" train when everything ground to a halt.
His train was actually a few hundred yards up the river tunnel. I recollect him telling me that he had to walk the catwalk then the tracks back to Court Street. He then proceeded to walk from Court and Montague Streets all the way to his mother's apartment in Flatbush,
at East 21st Street and Dorchester Road, a distance of about five miles, in the pitch black. Mom and I were just sitting down to dinner in our Elmont home when the lights went out. The kitchen clock stopped at 5:27. I remember being very scared at first. I was only eleven. We went to our neighbor's house and sat around by candlelight.
The 1977 blackout occurred at 9:29PM so Dad was safely home at the time. Anyway, he was in Nassau county where I believe they had LILCO
power.
Wayne
The great blackout of 1965 (Where were you when the lights went out!?) was also felt here in Boston. However, despite the fact that the city was in the dark, the trains kept running. The MBTA, was still entirely dependent on its turn of the century 25 cycle system, which with the exception of a frequency converter used for peaking, was isolated from the remainder of the power grid. Station lighting was entirely DC, with the possible exception of one station which was recently modernized. Thus the trains ran through the otherwise dark city, prompting the (T) to begin a modernization program to insure that its employees would never again miss out on a day off caused by the power grid.
I missed getting stuck by only a couple of minutes. I got off a northbound #4 train at Burnside Ave. and started walking up the hill toward University Ave. I had gone maybe half a block when I noticed the streetlights were flickering. I looked back at the train station and the lights there were flickering too. I think it was about 5:25. I continued walking; over the next minute or two, the flickering got worse, then the lights went out altogether. When I got to my apartment building, I had to walk up 3 flights of stairs in pitch darkness. It was one month before my 13th birthday.
My dad was struck in the train and walked home. Cabs were charging $20 per block! From the papers the next day, they used National Guard people to help evacuate the subways.
Now my story: I was watching TV when sister asked "Is it me or are the liohts dimming?" We said no! Thwen the TV station went off the air- just snow, then the TV started pulling in on all sides and died at 5:15pm. We then went to the kitchen and the lights were in fact dimming and flickering. They all but quit at %;27 when we turned on the tube radio which died along with the lights at 5:28pm.
Back to the trains: The next day they ran slow due to fears of another blackout.(and some parts did go back out)
[ When the lights went out - 1965 ]
I'm one of the relatively few people who was on the subway at the moment the lights went out, nevertheless got to my destination and didn't know about the blackout until I turned on the radio.
I was in Church Ave. station on the IND Brooklyn Line when the lights dimmed and blinked out--then went on again. I thoiught little of it but took the D train south to my stop at Ditmas Ave.
The train and my home on Ocean Parkway were in an island of light (part of Brooklyn and Staten Island) that never lost power.
I don't know what happened to my D train south of Ditmas. They didn't have radios in those days, so I don't know how the motorman knew when he was approaching the dead block.
I was traveling from 90 Church Street (Manhattan) to 40th Street on the Flushing line that afternoon. We were under the East River when the lights went out. Our Enginners had the good since to let the #7 keep rolling & was just able to get the lead car into Vernon-Jackson.
After a few minutes we were all let out to walk the rest of the way home.
Mr t__:^)
I take it they were able to key a door open in the first car.
I was going to say: don't tell me the crew said, "OK, everybody out and push!" (I coudn't resist.)
I was 10 days shy of my ninth birthday on Nov. 9, 1965, and was still living in South Bend. I'm sure the story of the blackout was front page news, but have no recollection of it at the time. I DO remember the Palm Sunday tornadoes from that spring, though.
Though not a blackout I was informed that the Sea Beach (N Train) does not cross over the Manhattan Bridge. It didn't the last time I was in New York. I have two questions. When, if ever, will the bridge be open to the Sea Beach, and do any trains still cross the Manhattan Bridge?
Half the tracks of the Manhattan Bridge have been close for the past 18 years. The N has been rerouted via the Montigue tunnel, but the B, D and Q use the bridge. In a couple of years, one side of the bridge will close and the other will open. Its possible that at that time the Sea Beach will return to the bridge, and the Q will be put in the tunnel, but I doubt it.
We shall see what happens when the 63rd St. connector opens. It would be nice to see the N ply the express tracks along Broadway once again. We used to transfer from the Canarsie to the Broadway line for a nice express dash to Times Square on an N - R-32s or R-27s, it didn't matter - only because I wanted to ride on a BMT line whose trains had letter markings up front. This was back when the BMT standards were still running on the Canarsie, and I didn't particularly care for them because they didn't have signs up front.
Today's Daily News reports the findings of a MTA study to find new methods to move commuters more efficiently into lower Manhattan. The online edition has the basic article, but the printed edition has more details including a sidebar with the long and short term solutions. One of the short term ideas is to re-open the City Hall station. Another is to extend the 6 train to Fulton Street. Long term ideas include a "high tech shuttle" from GCT and the infamous Second Ave. Line. Eye Ways to Unclog Downtown
Any thoughts about what a "high tech shuttle" might be?
"A High Tech Shuttle" --- one with no poor, non-white city residents on it.
I told the head of this study that I hate it, and that I'm outraged that the MTA wants to use my tax dollars to improve access to the suburbs while leaving Brooklyn dependent on a cracking bridge which will lead to a catastrophic loss of service some time in the future. I said I would be motivated enough to go all out personally to stop it, in my spare time, if it came to that. I guess some middle income people are living in Brooklyn, and some Lower income people are living in Nassau. The MTA has taken it upon itself to stop that.
The only way this happens is part of deal in which those parts of the city in need get help too.
.....and the commuter tax got repealed.........
A 40-seat capacity Jetson's style flying saucer between the MetLife Building and Battery Park ....
--Mark
The MTA needs to decide what it's plans are for the midtown/east side. The story talks about the Second Ave. line, but two months ago the MTA's plan seemed to focus on running the Second Ave. line only as far south as 63rd, then crosstown and (presumably) down the Broadway line. Good for the people on the upper east side who don't mind a slight detour going downtown, but not much help for those people below 59th St. headed in that direction.
[Today's Daily News reports the findings of a MTA study to find new methods to move commuters more efficiently into lower Manhattan. The online edition has the basic article, but the printed edition has more details including a sidebar with the long and short term solutions. One of the short term ideas is to re-open the City Hall station.]
Re-opening the City Hall station wouldn't accomplish anything. It's too close to Brooklyn Bridge to be worth much.
There has to be a plan that everyone feels will solve their problem, and whose funding is perceived as fair. Right now, the needs of Brooklyn and the Bronx are not on anyone's radar screen. Even the RPAs mega plan does not solve the Manhattan Bridge issue, or even mention Staten Island.
I have my own favorite fantasy. As you know, I believe the city has plenty of subway capacity -- its just in the wrong places (all west of 5th) and separated by missing links (ie. the Manhattan Bridge). So you build the 2nd Avenue subway, right through to a Manhattan Bridge replacement tunnel, with a connection to give Dekalb trains access to the Rutgers tunnel as well.
And you finance it in part (sorry BMT fans) by selling the BMT Broadway line and Montigue Tunnel to the commuter railroads for replacement cost. The TA loses a line west of 5th Ave (where it would still have three four-track lines) but gains a line east of 5th Ave (where it only has one line today). The TA would also retain the Nassau St line as far as Broad Street. Trains to Lower Manhattan could terminate there -- we don't need the Water St line either.
For the commuters, the Broadway line would be extended to Grand Central by an extension north of Madison Square, and connected to the Atlantic Ave Branch of the LIRR, for super express Grand Central to Jamaica via Lower Manhattan Service.
As I said, I'd finance the rest of it with a commuter tax surcharge (for the commuter share) and a NYC resident local personal income tax surcharge (for the subway improvements).
why not re-open (and renovate) the 19th century tunnel from the present LIRR terminal down Atlantic Avenue to the water and extend it under the river to lower Manhattan. It wouldn't help the Westchester crowd at Grand Central, but it would be a lot easier than building something new to move LIRR passengers downtown from Penn Station through some of the most congested land in North America -- without reducing the already inadequate subway service in Manhattan.
(Re-use the existing Atlantic Ave tunnel). I'm sure landmarks preservation activists could ensure the tunnel is never used again.
How would reopening City Hall station (#6) help anything?
1 its a short 5 car station, gap fillers neeeded and it is only a loop station.
2 crossing the number 6 from 1 track to 2 track at home signal x70 would tie up southbond service.
3 how would extending #6 service to Fulton st improve service?
#6 service was extended to South Ferry when 5 service wasn't available.
I have a few opinions about the proposals:
1. "High tech shuttle"? For what that will probably cost (remember, it will need it's own, separate maintenance facilities) why not build a subway running into Brooklyn, especially if the line is underground? With it's connections to the existing system, that would increase flexibility on how trains on the line are routed, as opposed to a separate "high tech" system.
2. If they want to extend trains from Grand Central, why not make it part of the 2nd Ave line construction (subway on one level, railroad on another)? The railroad trains can have 1 or 2 corresponding stops with a terminal at Wall St, with the subway making the "local" stops. And since this is a joint project, half of the cost would come from the capital budgets of the LIRR or MNCRR.
3. Under which avenue is the LIRR going to run if it is extended to lower Manhattan? It'll end up being on the outskirts of Lower Manhattan what with the subway density there.
4. Extending the 6 to Fulton, presumably by reopening City Hall: how are they going to deal with the fact that City Hall is really short, and the fact that the station is a really sharp curve, complete with really loud squealing and wide platform gaps? It's too bad that when the IRT was extended to South Ferry, they didn't extend the local tracks as well, with the local taking the loop at South Ferry and the express going to Bkyln. That would have helped relieve what I see as a bottleneck in lower Manhattan, because the 6 stops short of the financial district.
If they extend the #6 south of B.B. it can't turn at Fulton; it would probably go to Bowling-Green, like they did in the late 60s/early 70s.
To make a usable station of City Hall they need SERIOUS gap-fillers, much like what is at South Ferry and even MORE SERIOUS wheel sprayers or wheel oilers. The wheel noise there is ferocious, especially on the left-hand curve just as you enter the station. PLUS you need to do like S.F. - only the rear cars could platform there.
The overall idea is not bad, especially in foul weather. I can see a replica kiosk (like at Astor Pl.) sitting over the re-opened entrance.
It's about a four minute walk from the existing B.B. exit to the spot where the original entrance to City Hall station was.
One more thing - keep the chandeleirs (and replace the 12th one) but
give them brighter bulbs, maybe even those soft-white flourescent ones they have in the tunnels. Some sconces along the wall for additional light might also be nice. NO FLOURESCENT or blue Mercury-Vapor light!
Wayne
So after talking it to death the crosstown trolley is toast? What stupidity!! As to Second Ave., once more with feeling, build it now, build it all build it four tracks wide build it to Brooklyn, build it to the Bronx, but mostly build it NOW. It was sorely needed when proposed seventy--that's right seventy years ago. The need has not receeded only the political will and moderation of corruption--bonds were sold TWICE to build the line and what do we have? As to surface trolley lines--I love them, but the fact is that in Midtown the necessity is grade separated all weather ROW that is spelled subway. While a 42nd st trolley would be fun, the throughput would not be sufficient unless the tracks were traffic free, and imagine 42nd street minus 3 or 4 of the current lanes.
In the NY Post Sunday May 23, page 18, are two articles showing Mayor wants to derail trolley on 42nd Street and Planner would make tracks on 2nd Ave.
After the good people od SubTalk read the article your excellent thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The city seems to be implying that the project on
42nd St. would go if it was to be built as planned--with
private funding. Is this so bad? That is, with all the other transportation problems should the city spend money on this project first? As far as a trolley on 2nd Ave. is concerned---it would be nice, but as the city says of the 42nd St. line it wouldn't handle enough passengers to make a huge difference. Has anybody thought of building a new subway line? Maybe under 2nd Ave.? This is not to say I wouldn't like to see many of the bus lines replaced by trolleys. It would be nice-but in the future after other transportation projects are finished. (Or with private funding.) Mayor Derails Plan for Trolley Along 42nd St.
I'm not sure the 42nd St trolley would really work. Sure it would replace bus service, but where would eastbound car traffic go? This will just mean that 40th or 41st will be overloaded. And I think a trolley on 2nd Ave is even worse - it does very little if anything to alleviate the congestion on the streets. A subway can do a much better job of moving people along the east side down to lower Manhattan and South Ferry.
The problem with limiting traffic on 42nd is that neither of the adjacent streets, 41st or 43rd, are through streets from the east side to the west side. Forty-first is blocked by the N.Y. Public library, 43rd by Grand Central and neither goes to First Ave., the both ramp up to Tudor City. Detouring eastbound traffic would cause about as many problems as it would solve.
It's about moving people not cars. If someone is going east to west on 42nd in a car chances are they started farther north or south before they got to 42nd. If they are on foot at 42nd then the streetcars will work well. Cab drivers will be happy to go a few block out of the way I am sure.
The formula where 45 buses = 15 LRV's seems a bit light but OK I can buy it if they can justify that speed and performance will allow it.
Exclusive busway may do some of the same by getting the buses out of traffic, but they still cannot move people as well as Streetcars
Toronto used streetcars on lines where volumes were between 4,000 to 9,000 peak passengers per hour in one direction. "streetcars can handle these traffic volumes more efficiently than either buses or trolley buses" (1971 TTC policy)
As for 2nd Ave. An upgrade to LRV operations would be much more effective than running buses but not as effective as a subway. The cost difference however makes it more attractive in the short run at least.
They should have built the subway when they had a chance.
The 42nd Street/Times Sq trolley is just a tourest thing that's been floated ... I don't see it a any kind of capital improvement master plan !
The 2nd Ave LRV/trolley also doesn't seem the best way to approach the problem, i.e. more mass transit service on the East Side. Existing bus/auto/truck traffic would seem to fly in the face of a LRV line. Where would they put it ... private ROW in the middle of the street ? on the curb sides ... what if a truck parks on the ROW. Elevated might work, but eye think digging is the best answer.
Mr t__:^)
Amen to that.
And I think a trolley on 2nd Ave is even worse - it does very little if anything to alleviate the congestion on the streets.
Actually, I think it'll make congestion worse. 2nd Ave is one-way and the lights are timed for a trip at about 30 mph. What effect would trolleys headed in the opposite direction to auto traffic have on the traffic light sequencing, assuming the trolleys get pre-emptive signalling? 1st and 3rd avenues would get additional traffic they don't need, and woe unto you if you need to get to the Queensboro Bridge in the PM rush ....
--Mark
There's a picture of a Slant-40 on the cover of the New York Times Magazine today. It's in association with an article on the mentally ill, and refers to the recent subway pushing incident.
Everday people wait in Penn Station for their trains. Some must look at the message board or monitors to see what track their train is on. You see trains to Huntington, Long Beach or Port Washington. Why do they show "West Side Yards - Track ??" (for example) on the message board / monitors? What passengers are looking for that train, or is it for crews?
I suppost that the message is for crews and other employees who must get to The West Side Yard. At Jamaica Station, the message boards have a HSF displayed for Eastbound trains stopping at the Hillside Maintenance Facility.
Speaking of which, why does it seem that EVERY train I get on stops at that place. It has the best service of any station on that line!!! Besides, why is it a) employees only and b)why do they need so many trains stopping there? c)why does it have such long platforms?
Hillside is for employees only because there's no access from the platforms to anywhere except the maintenance facility. I would assume that vendors and other non-employee visitors to the facility arrive by car.
In contrast, the "old" Hillside station was a regular public station. I don't know if there was any maintenance facility where the new one now stands.
As for the length of the Hillside platforms, that I can't quite figure out. Contrast them with the (less-used) employee platforms at Boland's Landing, which can accomodate only two cars.
The platforms are so long so that an entire train of any length can be opened. This makes for the quickest stops. Since it's for employees only, they want to keep inconvienience to the paying passengers to a minimum.
Before the maintainence facility was constructed the LIRR had a huge freight yard on the site. Only a small peice of the old Holban yard remains. It's primarily fo maitainence of way equipment. We all now what happened to the freight traffic.
((((((((((((((((((POOFT!))))))))))))))) it's gone.
[Before the maintainence facility was constructed the LIRR had a huge freight yard on the site. Only a small peice of the old Holban yard remains. It's primarily fo maitainence of way equipment. We all now what happened to the freight traffic.
((((((((((((((((((POOFT!))))))))))))))) it's gone.]
It may be a bit too soon to write off freight traffic as a lost cause. Two separate developments in the last few weeks seem to hold out some hope for a revival of freight traffic.
1) Norfolk Southern signed an agreement with the NY Cross Harbor for increased carfloat shipments from the Greenville Yard in Jersey City to the NYCH's Bush Terminal facility in Brooklyn. NYCH is upgrading its facility to handle these shipments. The idea is that Bush Terminal will become a major intermodal center, where freight can be offloaded from (carfloated) rail cars onto trucks for delivery in Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island. While this development wouldn't directly lead to more freight rail traffic east of the Hudson, it might end up taking truck traffic off of the bridges and tunnels.
2) Federal regulators ordered CSX to reduce the fees it planned to charge the Canadian Pacific Railroad to send freight shipments into the city using the line along the east bank of the Hudson and over the Hell Gate Bridge. CP has made no secret of its plans to move into the NYC market in a big way. This fee reduction should make their rates considerably more competitive with truck shipments.
Note that both of these developments are connected with the breakup of Conrail. One has to wonder whether the decline in NYC freight traffic was in significant part attributable to Conrail's bad attitudes.
That's good news. Maybe I should go back to NY&A?
You're most likely correct on the ConFAIL thing. The LIRR actively discouraged it's freight customers. The horror stories I had told to me. To them it got in the way of their primary business= passenger trains. And Conrail didn't want to be bothered with small one or two car local customers. All they wanted was the big and profitable intermodals and unit trains. It took the small operators like NY&A to show those big guys that the locals could still be profitable. When I last talked to my friend Tony (ex TA motorman) over at NY&A, they had already signed up three new customers. Hopefully, soon they can help reduce the truck traffic in this town. But being realisitic, I doubt it will be that noticable.
I kind of understand how it happened: when LIRR was privately owned and profit was all-important freight was an important source of revenue. When it was bought out by the state it's primary responsibility was the public and therefore the passengers. In fact I was kind of surprised that the LIRR and therefore the MTA was still in the freight business after all this time (the South Brooklyn doesn't count - its main customer is the TA).
The real reason that the LIRR sold off the freight operation was not for financial reasons - at least not directly. By selling the freight operation to the NY&A, they hoped to move from Class I status to the status of a subway system and out from under FRA regulations.
Ain't ever going to happen. There are too many reasons.
I'll list some.
*Pennsylvania Station,and the connections with an
interstate carrier.
*Grade Crossings
*Common Carrier freight sharing the same tracks
*Doesn't meet the USDOT's definition of: not part of the
General rail systm of the U.S. or Cananda
*the many LIRR Unions would NEVER allow it. The stakes are
too high.
The real reasons as told to me personally, by Mr. Larry McCaffrey, OWNER of the New York and Atlantic Railway:
*Gov Pataki wanted to show how privatization can be made
to work. The LIRR actually made a profit from freight.
It was a perfect candidate for privatizing.
*Because it turned a profit, there was a danger of loosing
federal funding
*There is no risk involved to the MTA. The costs
assosciated with running the trains was never backed up
by a guarenteed profit to the MTA. Now, the MTA collects
a set fee. That fee is actually more than than the profit
they had reccieved running the operation themselves. No
matter how little (or how much, Mr. McCaffrey likes to
say) the revenues freight makes. NY&A must pay. For the
MTA, it was a win/win proposal.
Those are the facts. It had NOTHING to do with FRA (they did have to approve) jurisdiction, or Taylor law games. BUT, those rumors persist. Ones that forecast doom,always do.
Speaking of profits, how has the NY&A done financially since the takeover?
I'd say that it's still too soon to tell exactly how much new freight activity will result from these developments. The NS-NYCH agreement won't affect freight traffic on Long Island, as trucks will take over at Bush Terminal. But that's not to say it that it won't be a welcome development, as there'll be less truck traffic on the river crossings. Now the Canadian Pacific plan, if that works as expected we indeed could see a big increase in freight traffic; from what I've read, the CP has ambitious plans and presumably the financial ability to see them through.
Bulding a bridge is nice. But the customers don't exist. Long Island has very few freight customers left. The best for the near future that CP rail can hope for, is to beat CSX with it's price structure.
A shipper like Gallo Wine and Spirits. They ship from Nappa California. Eventually it arrives in Syosset. BNSF is the originatating road. NY&A isthe recieving road. What lines it takes to get there? That's the competition. Via CP rail or CSX.
Conrail currently brings about 40 to 60 cars a day across the Hell Gate. Only NY&A can bring that number up. WHO brings the cars across the bridge? That's what CP rail is after. A majority of the freight traffic comming on to Long Island is wood and paperboard. Most comes from up north. CP rail territory. As the homeroad, they stand to make a lot of money,by cutting Conrail/CSX out ofthe middle.
[re nature of freight traffic that Canadian Pacific is after]
According to what I read, CP in fact considers wood and wood products to be one of the main types of cargo it can bring to Long Island. But in general you're right, there don't seem to be that many potential freight customers. Most of the old freight sidings are rusted and overgrown by now. And I don't believe there are sufficient clearances for double-stacks. Even so, if there are only 40 to 60 carloads a day currently coming into Long Island, there should be a chance of at least modest improvement.
NY&A barely turns a profit, but they do. The operating costs are so high. I remember the first month they showed in the black, September 1997.
The only reason at all they make any money is the RS-80.
That train carries the spoil from the new municipal water tunnel being constructed in Maspeth, Queens.
As a Govt. contract, it gets paid for on time, and regularly.
The RS-80 runs 5 or 6 nights a week, from Maspeth on the lower Montauk, to Holtsville. The Prima asphalt co. on the Mainline past Ronkonkama. It almost always has more than 30 cars in the consist. They run old ore jennies. Cast iron brake shoes. M.A.S. for that equipment is 30 MPH. Long nights indeed. They're using the GP38-2's on it now.
I used to hate that job. My favorite was YFD-301. Yard work, and the Brooklyn branches.
Oh, like I said, the '80 makes the the only profitable run for NY&A. @ $500 per car X 30 cars X 6 nights a week. No other train has the load. The rest all ran 8 or 10 max.
The gas run out to Bridgehampton actually looses money.
I'm not trying to be funny, but with garbage landfill disposal problems, NY & A, CP, etc. stand to make some money by moving garbage to those place which want it.
Hey, NY&A's only outshipped goods are trash, recycled paper, and scrap metals. More than half of the cars Conrail takes back to the Bronx everyday are empties!
Trash, recycled paper and scrap metal. Are you describing their used rail car equipment in detail?
That's good news. Maybe I should go back to NY&A?
You're most likely correct on the ConFAIL thing. The LIRR
actively discouraged it's freight customers. The horror
stories I had told to me. To them it got in the way of
their primary business= passenger trains. And Conrail
didn't want to be bothered with small one or two car local
customers. All they wanted was the big and profitable
intermodals and unit trains. It took the small operators
like NY&A to show those big guys that the locals could
still be profitable. When I last talked to my friend Tony
(ex TA motorman) over at NY&A, they had already signed up
three new customers. Hopefully, soon they can help reduce
the truck traffic in this town. But being realisitic, I
doubt it will be that noticable.
Don't forget that this services most of the electric LIRR cars. I toured the complex on the last transit tour. At the end of the day, you'll have a lot of people heading home at around the same time. As said, they want to keep the inconvenience to a minimum.
I always assume that it's intended for crews. But often, the "West Side Yard" train seems to be running two or three hours late (sign says 6:00 West Side Yard, but it's already 8:30).
(Insert favorite LIRR late train joke here)
Eye have to believe it is primarily for engineers, as the suited crew boards when it comes into the station.
It might also deter folks from running down the stairs at rush hour, because they think it's their LATE train comming in off the road ?
Mr t__:^)
why were the older series cars, currently white, painted this way. In older pictures it apperas they are all plain aluminum with a thin red stripe.
Thanks in advance
The older cars were originally brushed aluminum, which shone originally but eventually attained a brownish shade as steel dust worked its way into every crevice. Therefore the decision was made to improve their appearance with a coat of paint. The 01700 fleet was cor-ten steel and therefore painted as delivered. The 01800s are Boston's first stainless steel cars, and therefore unpainted, but if history is repeated, they will too become dingy and candidates for paint.
how come stainless cars in NYC havent had a similar problem. Is there a way to prevent this, is there any reason why they werent delivered painted other than asthetics
Yes, in NYC the wash rack isn't sacred, they use it more than once a year.
Seriously though, no amount of washing did much for the brushed aluminum.
Hi all,
Let you all know that updated NYC Subway Map and 5 Time-based maps are updated to reflect changes starting tomorrow.
All maps are located at:
http://www.nycsubway.org/routemap/
If anyone see any errors that needs to be corrected, please let me know at:
adler@nycsubway.org
Thanks and Enjoy!
Michael Adler
Okay, so this is slightly off-topic, but a friend told me today that he heard the Tappan-Zee Bridge, or at least a part of it, is a floating bridge.
If this is true, my guess would be that the western part of it is floating, since it is almost like a causeway.
Can anybody confirm this?
BTW -- Where does the "Zee" fit in? I know there's a town called Tappan not too far from there in Rockland County, but what's the Zee all about?
Thanks.
The "Zee" is an old Dutch word for "waterway" - there's a place in the Netherlands known as the "Zuider Zee". I'm not sure how "Tappan" relates to "Hudson" or if the "Tappan Zee" was another waterway somewhere.
Wayne
"Zee" is the Dutch word for sea. Applied to inland waterways this would denote a widening of the river into a bay;hence Tappan Bay,Haverstraw Bay etc. "Tappan" is the Indian word for "cold springs." The Mohegan Indians lived on the east shore while the Tappan and Saulrikan tribes lived on the west shore. Further to the west we have the Cleveland Indians,but they were defeated by the Milwaukee Braves.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Oh, brother....
And speaking of Brothers, how bout those Mets today over the Phils, huh? Wanted to go to the game after the bus fest, but I figured they'd be rained out.
-Hank
I "showed up at Shea" on Saturday and watched Bobby Jones get walloped! Bleh!
--Mark
Tappan is also the name of a town in Rockland County; hence the translation to the "Tappan Sea Bridge". (also known as the Gov Malcolm M Wilson Bridge).
--Mark
The original Dutch name for the Hudson River was the Tappan Zee.
Mark: I hadn't known that the name of the Tappan Zee Bridge had been extended to include Gov Wilson. A little further upstate we now have the"Hamilton Fish" Newburgh-Beacon Bridge and the "Franklin D Roosevelt" Mid-Hudson Bridge. No one up here uses those long names.
The only bridge renaming that ever made any sense was when they added the lower level to the "George Washington" and promptly called it "Martha."
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Twin Bridges on the Northway (I-87) above Albany over the Mohawk River/Barge Canal are officially named for Tadeusz Kosciuszko (same person as the BQE bridge across Newtown Creek). They're matching steel-arch structures and were (and are still) frequently referred to unofficially as the "Dolly Parton Bridge." (The reference to calling the lower deck of the GW the 'Martha' reminded me of it.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Ed: Believe it or some some good folks don't know which level is which.(If I say anymore I might be in trouble)
Larry,RedbirdR33
Well, ever since the feminist movement began, it's probably best not to presuppose which is which.
OK Redbird: Consider your self chastised for that one! Donate (spend) your life's savings at a Native American casino as punishment. :)
Tappan Zee is the widest portion of the Hudson River; the bridge itself is 3 miles long.
As for Zuider Zee in The Netherlands, that was a shallow arm of the North Sea until 1932, when a dike was completed across its northern end. It's now a great freshwater reservoir known as Ijsselmeer (sp), about half of which has been drained and divided into polders.
My basic understanding is that the bridge is not anchored to bedrock, because it was just too deep at that point, so the caissons were driven into the muck under the river there, and have air pockets to keep them at the right height. So they don't float on the water, which is my traditional understanding of the definition of a "floating" bridge, but it's not locked in to place, either.
There's a great website at http://www.nycroads.com/crossings/tappan-zee/ that has a much better explanation of all this.
As I recall, this has something to do with the shape of the bridge -- apparently the curve was included to help stabilize it...
I know asbestos is/was abundant throughout the system from the warning signs I have read, However what I was told by a friend really scares me...I have written here before about the Abondoned Hudson Av. Substation Located on the Brooklyn Campus of Long Island University. Well, recently it was sold to Pratt University and they began gutting it, with no plans of tearing it down, just refurbishing it. There were no chemical or asbestos removals done, and they finished gutting everything a couple of days ago. During the whole process, the huge doors were left open, and dust filled the campus for the two or three weeks it took. Now, what my friend told me was that these old electrical substations were filled with asbestos and PCP's. I have been on campus all year, and the MTA never touched the building once, all the work was done by a private contractor, was there really any risk???
I'd be really surprised if they didn't check for Asbestos / PCB (PCP is the drug :) / mercury contamination, as it would be a very LOGICAL step. It's probbably mandataed by law anyway. As for the dust, I wouldn't overly worry about it. There are tons of other sources of asbestos (car brakes) around. PCBs don't float in the air, as they are effectivly and oily substance. Ditto for mercury, though mercury is a metal, not an oil.
In a substation you would normally find asbestos in areas where DC arcs were contained. These DC breakers would probably have been removed by the TA before the building was sold. Other switchgear was usually mounted on slate panels. Rotary Converters may have had asbestos insulation on windings, but like the breakers, these could be removed intact without disturbing the asbestos. PCBs on the other hand were found in transformers, oil bath switches and similar gear and in a lot greater quantity than asbestos. Mercury shows up in Arc Rectifiers, switch gear and flourescent lamps. If any items of the type described above were destroyed in the renovation process, then the referenced substances were probably released.
Some later "slate panels" were made of a material called "Ebony Asbestos (Asbestos filled bakelite).
I suggested recently that the primary reason the J & M have their terminals as Bway/Myrtle and Marcy respectively was only because of crew utilization and not passenger convenience. I had an opportunity to work the M today ( Wayne:I had good slants LOL), and came away with this observation: more passengers (oops customers!) had to change from the J to M at Bway Myrtle to go towards Marcy than the number of people already on the M train. People are used to the M going only as far as Bway Myrtle on nights & weekends so why change it? Also, the Sunday AM headway is 15 minutes and the customers geting off the J missed the M by about 5 minutes and had to wait 10 minutes for the next M, with most of those people going to Flushing Ave. Coming back, customers are letting M trains pass by expecting a J. My conductor tried to alert them, but you can't stay in the station forever and half of them don't speak English. Fewer passengers would be confused if they left the M to Bway/Myrtle 24/7. Too late now to change it! P.S. I hear the contractor is WAY ahead of schedule!
Way ahead of schedule? Maybe they ought to let this guy try his luck on the Manhattan Bridge after the Willie B is done. It couldn't hurt.
But is he doing the job right? He *could* be doing a shoddy job so he can get more work next year?
Part of the Manhattan Bridge was rebuilt during the Dinkins years and now it had to be redone beacuse it was nto done right.
(I am not saying the work on the Willy B is shoddy but way ahead of schedule kind of scares me-- how is he saving all that time!
must be using non-union labor
Yeah, but Dinkins wouldn't have been in that mess if Lindsey, Beame, and Koch hadn't already put the bridge there.
-Hank
I like the present arrangement.
There are more jobs for all involved.Don't give the T.A. any ideas on productive efficiency.
The new Underground map with the JLE is now available, and for people who know the map well, it is quite a surprise. For the first time since 1938 (when the Waterloo and City Line became a permanent fixture), the pocket map has not one single service run by the main line railways.
The W&C line is now owned and run by LT, the Northern City Line (Moorgate-Finsbury Park) has vanished after being on the map for over 90 years. Gone is the North London Line (always an intermittant feature) and Thameslink (even though, the Northern Line will be closed this summer). Docklands is still there though.
I guess that this is just temporary, perhaps LT wants to charge more putting rivals on the map. Certainly, no attempt has been made to tidy up where there are gaps (the Victoria Line at Highbury and Islington swings far right, then back again for no apparent reason). So, although the map is now less cluttered, it has not regained its elegance of the 1960s/1970s.
On the subject of maps, inspired by past posts concerning the design of the NYC fantasy map, I am now putting the finishing touches to my own for London. This is in the style of the Underground map, and very loosely based upon LTs own (awful) fantasy version. If anyone wants more details, or a copy, then email me.
Are the Travelcards (Visitor and otherwise) still good on the national services (Thameslink, North London Line, etc) within the six zones? I just visited the LT web site and the regular map does not show the national services but the fare-zone map still does (which also shows the JLE from Stratford-North Greenwich but not the under construction part of the DLR).
By the way: For you people in the U.K. don't forget this past weekend and this coming weekend (Memorial Day in the U.S.) is Steam on the Metropolitan.
-Dave
Yes, Travelcards are valid for all London railways and buses in the appropriate zone (trams also when the Croydon system opens later this year), but for some of the services vanished from the map, standard LT zoned tickets are valid too.
The LT zones apply to all tickets (including singles and morning peak fares) for all of their stations (one-day travelcards are not valid for the morning peak).
I am not going to go into the intricacies, but suffice it to say that if I hold a one-way Underground zoned ticket, there are stations/services shown on the map that I cannot use, and stations/services not shown on the map that I can use. Perhaps the map is in need of a good spring clean.
I shall miss Steam on the Met as I am in Holland this weekend. I will get some Amsterdam and Rotterdam pics for the site. I also want to get some pictures of the Le Shuttle channel tunnel electric locos.
Do any of my fellow UK enthusiasts know what has happend to Sarah Siddens?
Simon
Swindon UK
I was at the Steam on the Met on Sunday, 23 May. Sarah Siddens was hooked up as the second unit on one of the consists. The steam locos were changed as necessary at Amersham.
Acording to the MTA website, there will be no R service from 36/4 to Continental Ave. and no N service from DeKalb to 34th St. I didn't see where the N trains from CI will turn or if they will be rerouted over the Manhattan Bridge to 21 St. There would be Astoria service operating between 34 St. & Ditmars Blvd. This would mean E & F trains will be running "against the wall" (local) thru Queens because of the absence of R service. A few years ago, the same thing happened and they had R trains operating between Continental Ave. & 57/7, with the N trains continuing to 34 St. Wonder why they are not doing this? The R crews are availiable with picked jobs. Guess they will have to go extra.
As I have said before, ad-nauseum. The TA could care less about the convienience of the riding public. Next weekend's service diveresions just reinforce my point.
THIS STINKS, Where am I going to find a R40Slant???
My nephew is staying the weekend and he wants to "drive" a train. Last time he drove the N from CI to World Trade....
Maybe we'll go over to the L but heck I just had a R40M on the Q yesterday.
Lou: The M Myrtle Av Local is using 4-car trains of slant R-40's at all times.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Now to plan to get to the M.....
From the Brighton... Might just take the B82 bus to the L anyway then the M. He loves bus's too.
R40M on the "Q"! Goodness gracious, what is the world coming to?
Next thing the R68s will be back there! BTW - was that a yellow or an orange sign "Q" on that Straight R40?
Wayne
Hmm, don't remember, it had yellow shop strips under the car numbers though. Give me a break I'm going home from 12hr shift....
Oh, puh-leeaaze! If that were to happen, we could then run a race to determine the SLOWER train. We might as well have a turtle race.
I'm sure there will still be some on the N. It will be running between Ditmars and 34 St., and also in Brooklyn between DeKalb (although you can't turn a train there), and Coney Island (according to the web site, tho I haven't seen the General Order yet). You may see a few on the L, but you are guaranteed one on the Metro to Marcy M.
Bad Idea MTA. Your intoxicated customers rely on you to get them home. Especially on a holiday weekend. How are we supposed to get home from a party in Brooklyn to Astoria(drunk off our @55es) if the N and R trains are not operating their full routes? Are you suggesting your customers to drive intoxicated. Great idea!! Why have mass transit in the 1st place????
All comments are greatly appreciated.
Having a drunk person change trains when they don't normally have to can be dangerous!!!!!
In The NY Post Monday May 24, page 24, is a article about the city and the MTA have agreed to permit welfare recipients to work 20 hours a week cleaning up litter in subway stations, starting in June 1999.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the article your excellent thoughts, as always, are welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Make that page 22 of the NY Post Monday May 24 of the above article.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Charlie, you're a bit late. This program was discussed at length at least a month ago. The participants are referred to as WEP's.
Just a reminder that the next SubTalk Field Trip will be a visit to the Newark Subway to see and photograph the PCC cars, whose days in Newark are numbered. Again, here are the details:
Date: Friday, June 4, 1999
Time: 6:00 pm (please arrive before then, as we need to leave without being able to wait too long for stragglers)
Place: We will meet at the World Trade Center PATH Station, on the platform between tracks 4 and 5, head end. Others may join us at Newark Penn Station, Outbound Subway Platform at 6:30.
Itinerary: Tentative proposal is that we take PATH to Newark Penn Station and board the Subway. We would make a photo stop at Orange Street Station (grade crossing) and then re-board (for another fare) to go to last stop, Franklin Avenue, for another photo stop. We would then take the subway back to Newark Penn Station.
Scheduling Note: PCC cars run frequently until around 8:00 pm. Starting around 8:10 pm, buses are substituted for the PCC's.
Financial Details: Bring lots of $1.00 bills, as both the PATH and Newark Subway fares are $1.00 each trip.
Reservations: Although advance reservations are not necessary, to get an idea of how many are coming, please post on SubTalk or send an e-mail to 75113.53@compuserve.com to indicate if you are planning to be on this trip. [If you've already indicated whether or not you are coming, there is no need to do so again.]
Looks like I have an 80% chance of attending. Put me down on the list!
--Mark
I'm going to try and attend - assuming I don't get called at the last minute for bimah duty, I'll join you in Newark.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sign me up Sid!
I've never been on the Newark Subway before (for that matter, I think I was on the PATH only once, about 20 years ago). I'm sure it will be as fun as the Willy B trip - plus the chance to meet more Subtalkers.
My wife likes the idea of my going on the trip, because I've always wanted to see the Newark Subway and this way she figures she doesn't have to. But as always, anything I do is contingent on the three female bosses ages 36, 7 and 5.
Our last trip (Willy B) my wife went out with her girlfriends (dinner/movie). She now welcomes my "Subfanning" if you will. I think they might go see Midsummer Nights Dream or some other chickflick.
Will be there with stickers and marker for those I can't make up nametags for....
Being in desparate need of a new computer, I need to ask you fellow Sub-Talkers a favor....
Has anyone in the NYC area ever gone to one of the discount electronics places in Brooklyn?? Im talking bout the places that advertise incredibly good deals in the Sunday News..(i.e. IBM aptivas with all the works for $700..etc...) I need a reliabler cheap lace to get one...please email you ranswers so not to use up subtalk space...thanx....
Question: How many TA employees does it take to get a MVM machine from the street to the subway ? Answer 8.
Today received my copy of the "Spring 99" Cubic newsletter. In it is a article about the installation of MVMs at the first two stations in Manhattan. There's a small photo (looks like at Columbus Circle) of a MVM comming down the stairs on it's side.
Also incl. are articles from BART; Sydney; Shanghai; Chicago; London; and Hong Kong ... but not too many photos :-(
Mr t__:^)
[Question: How many TA employees does it take to get a MVM machine from the street to the subway ? Answer 8. Today received my copy of the "Spring 99" Cubic newsletter. In it is a article about the installation of MVMs at the first two stations in Manhattan. There's a small photo (looks like at Columbus Circle) of a MVM comming down the stairs on it's side.]
Of course, the photo didn't show the 25 foremen and crew chiefs standing around drinking coffee and ogling female pedestrians while the eight guys carried the MVM down the stairs.
so what else is new?
How can I subscribe to this newsletter?
It's free to "customers", but here's the way to contact them anyway:
E-mail = kim.gregory@cubic.com
Snail-mail = Cubic - 5650 Kearny Mesa Rd - San Diego CA 92111
P-mail = (619) 268-4587
FAX-mail = (619) 268-5737
BTW, it's typically a small publ. of a 1/2 to a dozen pages, and incl. a lot of patting themselves on the back. Sometimes enough detail to make it valuable reading, not to heavy on photos and such of the suits. Also it's quarterly.
Mr t__:^)
Yesterday I rode an F from 5th Ave. to Roosevelt Avenue. As has been a frequent practice with the 63rd street connection project, the E and F were running "on the wall" from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt.
Our astute motorman yesterday changed the side electronic route signs from:
F | 6th Ave Local | Queens Express
to
F | 6th Ave Local | Queens Local
at Queens Plaza, and back to
F | 6th Ave Local | Queens Express
at Roosevelt Ave.
Of course, that plus, frequent, clear announcements on the part of the conductor still had people on the train and platform confused. But I thought it was a nice touch.
And today, Monday, after a weekend of service changes, and the reopening of the 63rd st tunnel to the Q, the side signs on the D that I saw looked like this:
205th St (top)
SPECIAL (bottom)
On the Q it looked like this:
57th St - 6th Av (top)
Brighton Beach (bottom)
Both trains pulled into Newkirk Ave at about the same time. I guess the word didn't go out to the train crews that it was Monday. Oh well...
I seem to recall seeing 34th St.- 6th Ave. signs on certain cars in the mid-80s. Did the R-32s have such signs? They ran on the D back then.
Of course, the R-1/9s had such signs, but by the mid-80s they were long gone.
I'm not justifying the improper signs, but as for the D, that train would have been running all night between 205 St and 34/6. When regular service resumed, no platform conductor would have been around to change the sign back. BTW: on an R68, it takes a lot of cranking to change one sign, as it is very time consuming. As for the Q, the person probably didn't realize they were going back to 21 St today till he/she was told at Brighton Beach. I'm sure all will be proper Tuesday.
If the crews don't know where they are going, who does?
I'm sure the crews knew where they were going. When a crew gets onto a train, they have to move it. They don't have time to check & change signs. As I said the D signs were correct at the time the train was placed into service. Nobody bothered to change the signs after the General Order was over. As for the Q, a simple mistake in the yard by another individual, not necessary by the crew you saw operating the train.
Regardless,the train crew knew where they were going because the General Order had expired and regular service resumed.Operating personnel like myself just don't get onto a train on a particular line and look at the signs to tell us where we are going,which you seem to be implying.
People are idiots. I have been in the exact same situation on the Quenns corridor.
At Q.P. I will program the sign to display EXPRESS. No other messages. Along the way, I will program it to display LISTEN FOR ANNOUNCEMENT.
Then I will make a long and detailed speech over the PA. I will carefully explain the service changes. As we enter Roosvelt, I then program the signs to display LOCAL. After the train stops, I repeat the long announcement over the PA. I close the doors.
As the train pulls out and crosses over to the local tracks, as ussual, there are a dozen or so idiots staring down the tunnel. Looking for the R that won't be there till monday.
This question is for anyone who is versed on the Ex-New Haven Railroad. What ever happened to all those old "Washboard" MU's that the NH received in 1954 from Pullman-Standard? I remember when they were put aside for the the newer cosmopolitan MU's during the early 1970's. Did they scrap them, or are they still in storage? Also, on the New York City Transit Authority question side,is there a reason why on the "Redbird" cars that there is a color line underneath the car number on the side? I've seen red, blue, yellow, and I think I saw one with a green one. Thanks to all in the Apple!
[This question is for anyone who is versed on the Ex-New Haven Railroad. What ever happened to all those old "Washboard" MU's that the NH received in 1954 from Pullman-Standard? I remember when they were put aside for the the newer cosmopolitan MU's during the early 1970's. Did they scrap them, or are they still in storage? Also, on the New York City Transit Authority question side,is there a reason why on the "Redbird" cars that there is a color line underneath
the car number on the side? I've seen red, blue, yellow, and I think I saw one with a green one. Thanks to all in the Apple!]
Long since fallen to the scrapper's torch, I'd presume. Old cars tend not to stay around long once withdrawn from service.* There's a section of this site on "Museum Cars," where you might find some survivors should any exist.
As for the color lines, you'll see them on all subway cars. They indicate yard assignments.
* = I don't use the term "retired" with respect to subway or train cars, as it's been too closely associated with Beanie Babies :-)
The Washboards, I believe, had water cooled ignitrons in them. The M-2s supposedly had air cooled ones in them (since converted to SCR). I think theb PRR pioneered the air cooled ignitron in MU service. Anyway, when water cooled ones run out of water, interesting things happen, noteably a meltdown :) The danbury RR museum has two. I don't know if they're complete. Since they're rectifiers, they'd probbly still run today.
A few,I din't know how many,were used as coaches on the Harlem Line,with the pans removed for a short period of time in the late 70s.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I got the impression they stayed on the property a long time after they were taken out of service. The fire in GCT in the early 80's was started in a "washboard" car. Since then I haven't heard much about them.
<< Long since fallen to the scrapper's torch, I'd presume. >>
According to the book "New Haven Power, 1838 - 1968," by J.W. Swanburg, all washboards except for a few in museums were scrapped in late 1985 and early 1986.
I can remember driving up to Danbury in the mid to late 1960's and seeing washboards laid up at Stamford.
As anyone who has been to Boston knows, the MBTA has one of the lowest base fares and one of the most confusing fare structures anywhere. Cash fares are as follows:
85¢ base subway fare also collected boarding inbound on Green Line surface sections except 'D'
60¢ base surface fare for up to two zones, then 60¢ for each additional zone.
$1.70 entering at Quincy Center and Quincy Adams.
$1.70 entering and 85¢ exiting at Braintree
$1.00 entering inbound D Fenway to Reservoir
$2.00 entering inbound D Chestnut Hill to Riverside
Thus going from Randolph to Salem you would pay:
Boarding Bus in Randolph $0.60
Boarding RT in Braintree $1.70
Boarding Bus at Haymarket $0.60
Exiting Bus in Salem $0.60
For a total of $3.50
Our freind from Nassau County going to Harlem (mentioned in another post) pays $1.50 for a similar ride.
Here is my proposed fare schedule to give Boston a simple fare schedule.
Boarding anywhere in the cities/towns of Boston, Braintree, Quincy, Milton, Dedham, Westwood, Newton, Brookline, Waltham, Watertown, Belmont, Lexington, Arlington, Winchester, Medford, Cambridge, Somerville, Everett, Malden, Melrose, Revere, Saugus, Lynn, Swampscott and Chelsea $1.40 with free transfer priviledge anywhere within that region for 2 hours, using fare card, pass, or paper transfer.
Boarding anywhere outside the above area $2.00 with free transfer within the central area as above.
Exit transfer issued within outlying area good for return trip on same route. All others pay exit fare of 60¢.
Thus there are four fare levels:
Inner $1.40
Outer to Inner or Inner to Outer $2.00
Outer to Inner to Outer $2.60
Within outer Zone, same route round trip $2.00
Commuter rail fare within inner zone: $1.40 good to any station within zone
Commuter rail fare from outer zone: $2.00 good to any station within inner zone.
Commuter rail fares beyond outer zone (limit of bus service) $4.00 within 495, $5.00 beyond 495, $6.00 Providence, Worcester and Fitchburg (PWF)
Free transfer from any commuter train to central zone buses and rapid transit.
Passes based on 18 days per month:
PWF $216
O495 $180
I495 $144
OUTER $72
INNER $50.
1 Day OUTER PASS $5
1 Day INNER PASS $3
Any thoughts?
Gerry
Gerry, my station is Mishawum on the Lowell branch, and the base fare there is $2.25 each way. In your scheme, does this fare go down to $2.00? Or is Mishawum/Woburn past the Outer Zone?
Yes, it would be in the outer zone, if busses still run to Wilmington or Woburn
Gerry, your fare ideas may make things less confusing, but I don't think I want to pay 1.40 each time I ride the T. The $1 fare at Resevoir (where I board) is high enough for me, and I pity those at Chestnut Hill through Riverside that have to shell out $2 for each ride. Frankly, while the service is better than nothing, it's not worth that much for each ride...especially with all the crowded trains on the Green Line. During Rush Hour, it sometimes takes me three D trains before I can board, they get so crowded. Also, I think it's a bit unfair that the M.B.T.A charges so much for the D, just because there are a few less stops, and it goes out a little further than the other branches. But really, the B and C line should have as half as many stops as they do now...it's ridiculous how there is a stop every five seconds. Also, the M.B.T.A could probably save money by closing down some stations...since they cost money to operate. Finally, the M.B.T.A thinks it only needs to run double cars on the green line during rush and lunch hours Monday-Friday. But they are mistaken...there are quite a few people who ride the T on weekends, and single cars just don't cut it! And during rush hours, it wouldn't hurt to provide a few triple cars either. So, lets see the M.B.T.A conserve money, and make an attempt at providing better service first, then will talk about a fare increase. If the M.B.T.A does make an effort in these areas, and then the fare increases, I would expect even better service then. -Nick
The idea of this post was to encourage responses and ideas. The bone being thrown here is the free transfer to any other line, for example you could board at Reservoir, change for the 66 bus at Brookline Village and change to the 15 at Dudley all for the single $1.40 fare. The same trip today would cost $2.20!
Fares in Boston are unreasonably low compared to NYC, PHL, CHI, SF and so forth, but the value for the money is poor too.
I guess that would be nice for the people who have to transfer, but what about those who don't? I mainly ride the trains;and the $1.40 fare means a $.40 increase inbound, and $.65 increase outbound for me. Now even the TA never does more than a $.25 increase, and that was steep in '95. -Nick
Yes, but the (T) charged more that the TA back in the 1960s 20¢ vs 15¢.
The problem is that the TA doesn't have the (T)'s funding structure, where so much of the cost is borne by those who don't even ride.
If you are riding the T around Boston, the fare structure is not at all confusing. It's a flat $0.85 until you start to get out into the residential areas. Many visitors don't go very far out of the city, and the locals can understand the system. This all might be moot however, as the Globe had a major story this morning on propopsed fare hikes by the MBTA.
Also, I ride the train from Worcester, and I think the $4.95 fare is just fine as it is ;)
markv
I only wish that I could pay a fare like that going into New York City (where I live). But in the NYC Metro Area, commuter rail fares on both the MTA Metro-North Railroad and MTA-Long Island Railroad can become rather astronomical. Example: adult peak-hour fare from the City of Poughkeepsie (which is not even a NYC suburb) is US$13.00 (the monthly ticket is around US$257, more or less) and off-peak/reverse-peak fare is US$9.50. Though I am entitled to reduced fares due to a certified disability, my fare is still US$6.50 (except on morning inbound peak trains to NYC, where reduced-fares are not in effect for the senior and disabled population). As I said, I live in New York City; I pay this fare so I can visit my girlfriend.
I screwed up in my last post. The fare is actually only $4.75!! Not a bad deal for a 50 mile trip. Especially if you can land an express...
A minor correction is in order:
Pertaining to the local bus fare structure: the fare of US$0.60 is correct for the first 2 of a 3-zone ride. However, if your ride takes you through all 3 zones, you pay an addition US$0.40 (not 60 cents as you stated, Gerry).
I stand corrected!
It's the old Sea Beach nut again. I have a real tough question or two for those equaly nutty subway rats. When I moved from New York in 1954, the route of the Sea Beach ran from Times Square (42nd Street) to Coney Island. Sometime in the latter 1950's or early 1960's before the Sea Beach was changed from the #4 train to the "N" the terminal in Manhattan changed to 57th Street. Can anyone tell me when that change took place? I'm trying to catch up on everything concerning my favorite subway train. Also I have two computer printouts of Joe Testagrose's pictures of the Sea Beach. One was taken on my wife's
birthday (Jan. 24, 1970) and it was not an "N" but a #4. Can anyone
answer me that? By the way thanks to all those who have answered my
other questions. It's been a great help and I appreciate it.
Fred: Effective May 2,1957 the N was extended from Times Square to 57 Street-7 Avenue. I don't know the location of the picture that you are referring to but I believe that it was a fantrip using D-Types and the "4" may have been turned up for a run on the Sea Beach Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Redbird33: Thanks again. That 1957 alteration now answers most of my
questions. You're a whiz. It's nice to know there are subway fanatics out there. I will be riding the rails for all I'm worth when I get to New York in August. If you have any suggestions, I'm open to them. Thanks again!
You could probably vouch for this. Most Brooklynites referred to the Southern Division routes by their titles (Brighton, 4th Ave., West End, Sea Beach, and Culver) instead of their numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, and 5). Since the Triplexes spent most of their careers on the Brighton and Sea Beach lines, people may have grown accustomed to seeing trains with #1 and #4 markings. One might occasionally see a 4th Ave. train marked as a 2 when a group of R-1s ran on that route, and West End trains didn't sport #3 markings until the Triplexes were sent over there during their final months of service.
How well did you know the various marker light combinations? Most IRT and BMT riders were very familiar with them.
You're right Steve B. When I lived in Queens, close to Queens Plaza, I noticed the 4th Avenue local did not have numbers on them because it was a "B" type train. Nor did the few Brighton locals that ran that way occasionally. Nor did the West End have markings. But the
Brighton Express and Sea Beach did. I identified with those markings because I related it to baseball. The #1 train went to Ebbets Field and Pee Wee Reese wore number 1. The Sea Beach was #4 and I equated it with Duke Snider, my favorite Brooklyn Dodger, who wore number 4.
Moreover, I always rode the Sea Beach to Coney Island--never any other. Always the Sea Beach. It wounds silly now, but I was a kid then. My love for the subways has always remained. Thanks for your
help.
[ Moreover, I always rode the Sea Beach to Coney Island--never any other. Always the Sea Beach. It wounds silly now,
but I was a kid then. My love for the subways has always remained. Thanks for your
help. ]
As I recall, in the 50s and early 60s, the Sea Beach Express was fastest from Times Square to Coney Island. (Faster than the West End, and the Brighton Express ended at Brighton Beach, requiring a transfer.)
-- Ed Sachs
Ed: You're a man after my own heart. Why didn't I think of that. Now that you mention it, the Sea Beach did get to Coney Island faster than the West End. It meant getting there quicker and having more time for fun---if only for a shorter amount of time.
Hmm. #1-Brighton/Pee Wee Reese; #4-Sea Beach/Duke Snider. Sounds like sheer coincidence, doesn't it? They also lived right around the corner from each other in Bay Ridge. I'm sure you remember the arguments as to who was the best center fielder in New York.
Did you ever ride on the Sunny Sunday Summer Special (at least that's what I think they used to call it) which ran nonstop on the Sea Beach express tracks?
The route that Steve B refers to as the "Sunny Sunday Summer Special" was the Franklin-Nassau service, running on Sundays and holidays ("weather permitting," they used to say). It ran from Franklin Avenue and then express down the Brighton, through Coney Island on Track A (now 1), up the Sea Beach Express tracks, then via the Fourth Avenue express tracks, stopping at 59th, 36th, Pacific, and over the Bridge to Chambers Street. In the other direction (I have no idea what was southbound or northbound on that service!), it used track C or D (later 3 or 4) throgh Stillwell to the upper level through West Eighth Street and then express to Franklin. (Brighton locals were on tracks E and F--later 5 and 6--and used the lower level through West Eighth).
The big painted directory on the north wall inside the terminal at street level had as its first route listing, "Sea Beach Express to Chambers Street Track A." There was a little sign, hinged at the top, that was swung down by a rope pulled from floor level, to cover the 'Track A' wording at other times; the smaller sign read "Not Running." That big sign probably went back to the opening of the Sea Beach cut and Fourth Avenue Subway, since that was the original Sea Beach route.
Unfortunately, when the TA took over, one of the first things to be abolished was anything unusual like non-rush hour express service. Its last year was 1952 or 1953 and between 59th Street and Coney Island, in both dirctions, there were still a lot of people standing. The trains were six ABs as I recall (because the pocket track south of Chambers used for reversing only holds six cars, I've heard) and had the big white disc on the front buffer opposite the cab. Didn't the Franklin stations only hold six cars, also?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Yes, the Franklin stations (except for Eastern Parkway/Botanic Garden) could only handle 6-car trains. Eastern Parkway had a longer platform, and I had seen it handle at least an 8 car train of 60' cars (I'm not sure if it was long enough for 8 standards).
The single track at Franklin was plenty long enough for an 8 car train of standars, but the platforms were only long enough for 6.
-- Ed Sachs
While researching an answer to a previous question I came accross the following tidbit which might be of interest.
From the ERA NY Division Bulletin of June 1967:
The first passenger carrying train through the Chrystie St-Williamsburg Bridge Connection was an ERA Fantrip of the museum Lo-V's on April 8,1967.
The connection did not open for regular service until Monday July 1, 1968 and that service was run by the "KK" 6 Avenue-Broadway/Bklyn Local.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Why don't we convince them to reenact some of the old fantrips like that one?
Because nowadays it costs big bucks to do that AND there is likely an insurance requirement of some sort that probably didn't exist back in 1968.
--Mark
Anyone willing to put down big bucks? Split however many ways?
I'm game!
--Mark
OK---why is there always some kind of acid like liquid dripping from many locations on the N,R platform. It stains the floor and doesn't look too good. Can it be possible that this may be toxic waste or sewage? Oh yeah baby---MTA better investigate before they get slapped on the @55 with a lawsuit from it's riders and the EPA.
And why is there always an odor near the downtown 6 escalator on the N,R platform that smells like somebody barfed there?
If you know the answer, I'll hook you up with an "I love NYC MTA" T-shirt and an MTA subway token from 1978(valued at over $5.000.00!!!!!!!!)
It's not acid. And generally, it's not sewerage, or potable water. It's usually runoff from storms, seeping through the concrete and depositing minerals when it drips and lands, just like it does in caves.
As for the smell, it's probably what you think it is.
-Hank
There's nothing like standing on the platform and getting some unknown liquid dripped on your head!
And I've also noticed that horrible smell - get some lysol!!!
If the bad odor is persistent (more than 48 hours) could be a sewer backup or sewer leak somewhere. Something like that is NOT GOOD. The stuff alluded to in earlier posts usually dries out in 24-72 hours if not cleaned up and loses most of its pungency as it does so. They are usually quite diligent with the sawdust when it comes to "spills" such as that.
Wayne
Sad as it may seem, I'll take a sewage leak over the stink from that
"Green Trees" restaurant at the Port Authority station. *shudder*
:D
I can remember when I worked for the TA in the early 1980s, calling in a complaint to Mr. Marricola (sp?) on the Maintenace of Way control desk. The north end of the southbound track always had a steady drip. Not having been through there for some time, I am not aware of the current condition of the station, but not surprised that an old condition has flared up again. I guess it is possible that one of those long forgotten underground streams is in the area. Also, that end of the plat would be the lowest end AND, I believe it was some point back in the late 60s or early 70s where that end of the platform had an access added to 3rd Avenue.
The ususal potpourri of structures in the area probably has caused the porblem to just fester over time.
a river also runs through the area by the token booth down the stairs from the North end of the IRT platforms at the Brooklyn Bridge station -- the floor drain seems to be the source. this has been going on for months (maybe longer). you would think that someone would be responsible for maintaining the drainage systems in the subway stations. the damages awarded in even one slip-and-fall case every year or two would exceed the price of a boxcar full of Draino.
If you think that's bad, just mosey on on over to Chambers Street BMT. There's a ruin in the making if they don't plug that leak soon!. I believe there is an underground spring or stream
in the area which is causing all this mould and mildew.
Call The Plumbers!
Wayne
The 8th St station on the Market-Frankford El has had a similar running water problem for the past 90 years. A problem like this at the old 15th St westbound subway-surface stop was solved by moving the station eastward to its current location.
Chambers St BMT has lots more problems than just that leak. To me at least, it's the station in the worst shape of the entire system. It looks like it hasn't been touched in decades (which it hasn't)!
--Mark
I thought there was only the Hudson and East Rivers in NYC. How many damn rivers are in this city?
Well, it looks like we'll be replacing subway trains for kayaks in the near future.
Brooklyn Bob there are 3 rivers, Hudson River, East River, Harlem River. Also do not forget the Long Island Sound.
This could be why the tunnels leak.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Technically, only the Hudson is a true river. The Harlem and East Rivers are actually straits. Long Island Sound, is another kettle of fish altogether (no pun intended). Glaciers carved it out during the Ice Age; the soil and rocks they pushed ahead of them became Long Island.
Hmmm, on the BMT platform? For the longest time the lower
level IRT express platform was a horror. Story is (unconfirmed)
that there an underground "stream" in the area. The usual fix
for that is to build a special type of syphon drain which sucks
(can I say "suck" on the air?) the water out of the station area
and out to a sewer, probably with an ejector pump since the lower
level is below the sewer line. I'm not sure if this was ever
done or why or why not, however that lower level platform is
fairly recent (1960s); prior to its construction 59 was a local
stop. The BMT platform was also moved around a few times, but
all in the 1910s. They just did a major rehab on that whole
station complex, so I'm surprised there are still leaks.
Ok, both May 21st and 24th have passed, and the R142's have not been delivered due to the derailment last week at the Bombardier plant in Vermont. Any word on how long the delay will be now? -Nick
According to very reliable sources at Jay St, delivery of the first set is scheduled for sometime in mid-October 1999.
Is it possible to get a train line that can go thru all of the four boroughs ( I would say five but of course there is no train to get to Staten Island.) Via which line would you do it (using existing lines) and would it run full time and what train.
My thought was maybe the A switch places with the D, then the A can possibly be the best candidate.
What you think
If I remember correctly, there was a time in the last 10 years or so when the C went from Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx, thru Manhattan and Brooklyn out to Rockaway Park in Queens.
The C was the only one that served four boros. There are some runners-up though; the M,QJ,and RJ served Queens,Manhattan,and Brooklyn twice.
The old E from 179 St-Far Rockaway served Queens ,Manhattan,Brooklyn and Queens again. This was also the all time subway mileage champ 36.42 miles.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Does anyone know the story behind all of the changes to the design of the door releases for the brand-new M-4s in Philadelphia?
When they were first delivered, each half of each door had its own emergency door release lever, with a white plastic breakaway cover. I've never seen anything like this before - not for EACH door panel, but I assumed there were new regulations that required it.
But soon people started breaking the covers for the fun of it. So they put permanent steel panels over all of the releases for the doors at each end, and they installed spring-loaded steel lift covers that said "EMERGENCY DOOR RELEASE - LIFT TO OPEN" on the releases for the center doors (and the one door panel nearest the cab). That seemed like a good solution to me.
But now they have made another change - one I don't understand. They have put new, LOCKED spring-loaded lift covers over ALL of the door releases, and they say "CREW DOOR RELEASE". This makes no sense, for two reasons:
First, there already crew door controls for each door panel. They have "Off", "Normal" and "Bypass" positions, I believe, and are behind locked covers near the ceiling next to each door. Then, each center door also has an exposed "Open / Close" keyswitch, which is obviously for crews.
Second, how is it legal to have a transit car that passengers can't get out of in an emergency?? ALL door releases are now locked. That kind of scares me a bit.
I don't know the details of the Philly system. I can't speak to those specifics.
I can say that the problem you describe is common to all rapid transit operations in America.
There is no oversight to what transit agencies do. NTSB can make recomendations. Sometimes the Fed can force them to do things by withholding the funding. But in no way is it the regulatory body that the FRA is to the railroads.
The TA here in New York made several modifications to the rapid transit cars that have comprimised safety. The end doors on certain cars cannot be opened. There is NO way out in the event of a wreck.
What you're describing at SEPTA is typical transit agency B.S. They all try their damndest to do everything the cheapest way possible. In itself that aint a bad thing. But they do go overboard a lot. That's how we got slow trains here.
If the transit agencies were regulated like common carriers, then they would have to get approval before doing any major changes. There woud be policies and safeguards. And the power to shut down unsafe practices by an outside body. An impartial body.
I have been advocating this for years. But you bet your bottom dollar, SEPTA, NYCTA, CTA, MARTA, and all the reat would fight it with the last of their legal department's breath.
Why do you think PATH has been trying so damn hard to get out of that?
I saw those releases on the M-4's that were first delivered and wondered to myself how long it would take before they were vandalized. As Ron noted, it didn't take very long. It was nice to see the metal covers but I was shocked to see the locked covers.
On the Budds (I just rode a train of them this morning, for the first time in quite a while), there is no release but there is an alarm handle beneath a breakable cover near the center set of doors. If memory serves me correctly, the K cars on Broad St have a similar system. This has always seemed to be adequate to me, and fortunately there have been few major accidents on either line to need them. Keep in mind that the end doors are not locked and could be used for emergency exit if necessary.
I agree that the door releases are a step in the right direction but I think the breakable covers are just invitations for vandalism. The hoodlums aren't pulling the levers but they're breaking something that's easy to break. I think if the metal, swing-away covers are used, the purpose will be served.
By the way, you get the feeling that the Budds are becoming an uncommon sight on the El. When I rode this morning, a quick hop from 30th to 15th, there were people at each stop who looked uncertain whether they should be boarding the train. I guess they were expecting M-4's. Interestingly, the conductor didn't blow the door-closing whistle at either stop - maybe it's becoming a lost art, or maybe the conductor isn't used to conducting any more?
On a NYCTA 75ft car you the pax can not open any door PERIOD. There is no release for the side doors or the end doors. Another mod waiting to happen when there is an accident that traps pax from exiting the car.
Actually, the cars were modified to ELIMINATE the emergency release for the end doors on the R44 and R46. They still have exterior electric unlock switches, and they are still in place on the SIR R44. I recall a feature that unlocked the end doors trrainline on the R44, but I don't know if it's still there since the rebuild.
-Hank
All the 75' cars have a switch in the cab allowing the crew to open all the end doors from one position.
I've seen "vendors" slip a small screwdriver into the
door strike to push up the latch and release it that way.
If the subway tunnels constructed under the East River many years ago didn't have the problems the 63rd. St. tunnel is having, why did the MTA decide not to use the same tunnel/track bed technology the older tunnels used? Was there any research done on other tunnels with the technology used in the 63rd St. tunnel, to see how durable they were, before choosing to use this different approach?
(I don't know how the old or new approaches differed, but when one reads that a tunnel that barely had any actual service use has to be shut for years, to replace the original track structure, then something is wrong. I assume it was the technology used. Or was it the installation and/or material that are to blame? Is it assured that MTA won't repeat the problem at some future time?)
Mike Rothenberg
Sometimes the TA does change for the sake of change. The original 63rd St. tunnel roadbed was similar to the that on the Fourth Ave. express tracks between Pacific & 36th Streets. That was replaced a number of years ago.
The problem with the 63 St tunnel is not the tunnel but the method of track fixation. They tried a new type and it failed. The tunnel itself is sound.
I believe all underwater subway tunnels in New York City (well, maybe not the 63rd St. tunnel) were constructed by boring through the rock/mud under the rivers and installing circular steel structures. BART, in the San Francisco area, had its miles-long tunnel under San Francisco Bay built by dredging a trench along the route, then sinking pre-cast concrete sections that were later bolted together and which have flexibility to withstand earthquakes, which it did (in 1989, I believe [Loma Prieta quake]).
Which technique is the cheapest, per track-mile of installed tunnel? Could this be a cheaper approach to use, to build a Manhattan Bridge replacement for trains? If the 63rd. St. tunnel built this new way, was it cheaper (apart from the repair problem) to build, per track-mile, than a tunnel built with the traditional boring technology?
Mike Rothenberg
Immersed tube tunnels are usually cheaper in soft ground. Bored tunnels are cheaper in hard rock.
The BIG DIG, Boston's current "Wonder of the World" construction project is being done with prefabricated tunnel sections that will be towed by tugs out to the Boston harbor and sunk and then connected. Although the savings may be debatable, the other reason for this method is saving commuters, businesses, and interstate goods transporters the larger travel time, and traffic detouring inconvenances that a boring/blasting project would require.
Doug aka BMTman
Are the tunnels covered after sinking them? If not, are there maintenance and safety problems?
Typically, tunnels built by the sunken tube method are covered over. BART's Transbay tube was built with this method, and the tubes are covered by, I believe, five feet of sand. They're not all that deep below the bay floor.
The tunnels are usually covered either with river silt or rip rap (broken random sized rock). There is a desire to cover the structure in case something strikes it from the topside, such as a ship anchor or debris.
On the subject of which is cheaper, it's probably a wash. The labor costs for mining a tunnel are quite high, since the operation is labor intensive. Much of the work on the sunken tunnel is done off site under controlled conditions and those conditions are much more predictable. Mining also brings with it the risk of collapse, and if compressed air is needed, this also makes work more difficult and risky. Sinking can get tough when river bottoms are rocky - blasting is generally not allowed due to environmental concerns, and underwater excavation is not all that easy.
The sunken tube method is usually employed if the tunnel is going through so-called unconsolidated sediment; i. e, sand, silt, muck, etc. It can almost be thought of as a variation on the cut-and-cover method. A trench is dredged out in the river or bay floor, the tunnel sections are lowered into place and joined together, and the whole thing is covered over.
If the location is rocky, then this method won't cut it, so to speak.
It is just not practical to tunnel for less the a mile in soft ground.This is why the section of the CA/T that you mention(by South Station) uses both immersed tubes and jacked sections.
"was it cheaper (apart from the repair problem) to build, per track-mile, than a tunnel built with the traditional boring technology?"
I also think the traditional technology is boring.
WCBS Newsradio 88 is reporting the following this morning:
The Long Island Railroad is scheduled to get 192 new electric cars. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority voted yesterday to spend 445 (M) million dollars for the cars, which will be manufactured by Bombardier Corporation of Quebec, Canada.
The electric cars are scheduled for delivery in 2002 and will replace 30-year-old cars. The new cars are built to travel up to 100 miles per hour and are wheelchair accessible.
Bombardier also has made trains for Metro-North Railroad. It is the first time Bombardier is supplying cars for the L-I-R-R.
The M-T-A contract calls for an option to buy 808 more cars -- 300 for Metro-North and 508 for the Long Island Railroad.
Money for the new L-I-R-R cars was a campaign priority of Governor George Pataki, who promised Long Island and Metro-North commuters that they would get better train service.
The Long Island Railroad is the largest commuter line in the nation, carrying about 500-thousand riders each weekday. Metro-North is the second largest.
>The new cars are built to travel up to 100 miles per hour....
Why? The M-1s were supposed to run at 100 - they sure don't. I've noticed, the LIRR has been geting slower and slower. It seemed faster a few years ago. The trackwork is pretty lousy too. There's no point in getting cars that can go 100 mph, if they'll never use them.
BTW - any word on weather or not they are ditching the Inboard bearing turcks for something that rides better?
I wonder why the MTA couldn't squeeze another five years out of the old cars. Did the LIRR cars ever get the kind of overhaul that the subway equipment got? Or does the LIRR run up more miles on its cars than the subway does?
Bombardier! Oh NO! If you've read my posts on them, you know how I feel about their quality problems. I actually worked for them on Comet IV coaches for NJT. I worked for Kawasaki too before them. Trust me, the two are light years apaprt. MTA. Money Thrown Away! Just proving again, that saving money counts more than quality! Why not Kawaski, or ABB/AdTranz? I know Kawasaki has some production scheduling trouble, but ABB's plant in Elmira, NY is sitting idle.
The LIRR cars do run up milage. They actually get better maintainence than subway cars. As locomotives they are required under federal regulations to get it.
Those inboard trucks are the finest trucks under passenger cars today. Almost all passenger cars in the tri state area use them, except the subway. Think how bad the ride would be if the Buckeye (transit) trucks were under there.
The LIRR can only go above 80 MPH in certain places. Where ever there are grade crossings, the FRA limits the speed to 79 MPH. In other places, to go above 79, the track must meet certain qualifications. Inspection frequency, type of roadbed, rail weight, etc. This is very expensive. That's one reason why so few places have the high speed limits. Then the cars and engines themselves must meet a higher standard too. The cost versus the short distances traveled, just weren't worth it. 80 will do.
I have been aboard FL9AC engines testing between Forest Hills and Woodside, on the center tracks. We did 123 MPH. What a rush! To do that, the ASC has to be cut out. Special permision from the movement bureau reccieved, and ther cannot be passengers on the train.
{re Bombardier vs. Kawasaki]
I dunno, maybe Bombardier has its drawbacks, but Kawasaki has done a disgraceful job when it comes to delivery of the bi-level coaches to the LIRR]
Don't confuse scheduling and delivery problems with quality control. I've worked for all the major manufacturers. Bombardier is the worst. No contest.
KHI has a small facility in Yonkers. The bodies must first be constructed in Japan, then shipped to NY for final assembly. Logistical nightmare.
ABB puts the customer first. ALWAYS. At MNCRR, they spent an amount equal to the cost of rebuilding the FL9AC's on service. Profit wasn't an issue for them. This was their first contract with the MTA. They wanted to make a good impession.
Bombardier couldn't wait to leave the MMC, at NJT. As soon as a car came off warranty, they cut off all service to the railroad. I have written before of the stupid mistakes in production they make, and the shoddy wiring I have seen. I could go on and on about the feild modifications we made, to correct production mistakes. All manufacturers do that, but not in the numbers that Bombardier does. They ever go to great legnths to hide them from the railroad.
Kawasaki didn't. ABB even worked with MNCRR on the mods to the FL9's.
Bombajunk!
So which was the best of the old line manufacturers? St. Louis Car or Pullman-Standard? (Although they ran into problems at the end with the R-44s and R-46s.) Or was it Budd?
As much as I love some of the StLouis equipment (a certain 1968 model comes to mind), I would have to say without a doubt:
BUDD.
To wit: 590 of 600 R32s still in fine condition at the age of 34.
Wayne
Budd was topps for quality, hands down. But it cost. Which is why they didn't get the work the other companies did. The lowest bidder and so forth.
Pullman built a damn fine car with the R-46. That cars problems were the fault of poor design, not construction.
St.Louis car, well they were running just so much mass production, had so many cars on order. Not only for NY, but all over. They couldn't keep up. And in later years, the quality suffered. Looking at the R-42, and really in the R-44. You could just look at the bodies to see the lack of good workmanship. Forget the details, like wiring, and quality of assembly.
In a very shrewd move, Bombardier purchased the liscence rights to much if not all of the Budd co.'s engineering work. The Pioneer truck design, the M class car body, etc.
Pullman, and ACF both still manufacture freight cars today. GSI still exists too. The St. Louis Car division was run out of business by the TA. Lawsuits stemming from the R-44 debacle. Look for a repeat of history with these new cars. Those who learn nothing from history, are condemned to repeat it.
Didn't Budd build Amfleet I and II? Amtrak has always seemed happy with those cars.
Siemens seems to build pretty good light rail cars. (San Diego, Calgary, etc.) Most of those orders have been in small batches, however. Also, the basic Siemens design was perfected in Germany about 30 years ago. It seems that they would rather do small orders for modest-sized agencies rather than get involved with rapid transit cars for big authorities like the NYCTA or SEPTA.
The R-142 order is much bigger than the R-44. If this doesn't go well it is very bad news indeed. Several people have posted suggestions here that the Redbirds be kept in reserve somewhere. Not necessarily in the regular service yards, but there must be some place in the NY area where they could be held.
They could buy them back from Naporanos after the fact like they did with the R-9 and R-10 cars then sell them at a loss. That would e their style.
I wasn't familiar with that. Was that when there were problems with the R-46s and their use was limited? Were any of the old cars put back in service for awhile?
In 1982-1983 there were R10's appearing on lines like "E", "F" and "GG". A ride on an R10 of "F"s was quite an experience, especially in the heat of the rush hour.
Wayne
Yes, Budd did build the amfleet coaches. And they are some of the finest if not the last word in coach design.
As for storing cars, the TA has access to several yards that are underutilized because of the decline in freight traffic. Yard A in Long Island City will easily hold 300 or more subway cars. And at this time NY&A barely keeps 20 there on a crowded day. The yards within the TA in certain locations also have excess space. Coney Island has some. 207th Street also. Theres not much else.
The Amfleet IIs with the bigger windows are nice to ride in. I was surprised when Amtrak went with the Horizon/Comet cars later on. I don't think they'll ever return to the Amfleet design, assuming there even is an Amtrak three years from now.
I have heard that they will overhaul Amfleet I cars for the Northeast Corridor and expect to get another 15 years out of them.
Those cars (Amfleet) are BUDDS, They,ll run forever
Bomajunk
Kawasucki
ACF- Another Company Floundering
St Louis Carless Comp
Compressed Steel Corp
SOAC- Society and Organiztion for the acquirement of crappy railcars
ABB- After the Before of Bankrupcy
SueMeTomo
[Don't confuse scheduling and delivery problems with quality control. I've worked for all the major manufacturers.
Bombardier is the worst. No contest.
KHI has a small facility in Yonkers. The bodies must first be constructed in Japan, then shipped to NY for final assembly.
Logistical nightmare.
ABB puts the customer first. ALWAYS. At MNCRR, they spent an amount equal to the cost of rebuilding the FL9AC's on service. Profit wasn't an issue for them. This was their first contract with the MTA. They wanted to make a good impession.]
Kawasaki's system does seem rather illogical. Performing all the work in one location clearly would save on transportation costs. Can't they expand the Yonkers facility to handle all the work?
As far as ABB is concerned, the big issue is whether they have a facility in NY State (Bombardier and of course Kawasaki do). State-content requirements apply to most or all MTA equipment contracts. Without a facility in the state, ABB would be ineligible for most contracts.
Yeah, but when it comes to shipping, it's cheaper as well. It costs much less to ship a hollow shell than it does a complete car, as shipping rates are based on weight.
-Hank
ABB Traction, which is now called AdTranz, bought the Elmira, NY facility that used to be owned by Sumirail Ltd.
The FL9AC, ArrowIII, and many other vehicles were retrofitted there. Only the ALP44's actually came from Sweeden.
To construct a carbody and forge castings for trucks requires a HUGE facility. The real estate needed just is'int available for a reasonable price here. Then the buildings and such. No KHI is doing the smart thing. It's just they kinda bit off more than they could chew here.Too many orders at once. But when you make a good product, it sells. And those Bi-levels are hot. The TA's order is going to have to wait.
Isn't former MTA boss Peter Stangl affiliated with Bombardier?
He sure is ... President here in USA.
Yes. Conflict of interest if I ever saw one. I believe He's the President of their railcar divsion. They also do aviation, snowmobiles, construction equipment.....
Dear Sir/Madam:
Before the Chrystie Street Connection opened in 1967, what the
track configuration of the approach to DeKalb Avenue same as today's?
What moves did those trains back then use? What kind of subway cars
were seen during the Pre-Chrystie Street days via Dekalb Avenue?
When the Dekalb Avenue station was built, why did they also
built a pair of bypass tracks? Why do the B trains bypass Dekalb
Avenue even on weekedns? In the past, the B trains stopped at DeKalb
Avenue during the late evenings, nights and weekends. I also heard
that a very limited number of B trains stop at DeKalb Avenue during
some hours of the day.
James Li
The configuration was the same through the 60s. The station and approaches were rebuilt in the early-mid 50's to accomodate longer trains and to alleviate the bottleneck caused by poor switching arrangements. I don't know the details of the old arrangement. Maybe someone here does?
Zac's question asks a lot, so my apologies for a long answer.
DeKalb was rebuilt in the late 1950s and into the early 1960s.
The results of all the construction weren't that great. The sole positive effect, IMHO, was extension of the platforms to accommodate 10 60' cars. To get rid of the sharp curves on the platforms on their southern ends, the platforms were extended northward and the southern portion of the platforms were abandoned. The scissors crossovers north of the station had to be eliminated to make room for the extended platforms and the track switches were moved into the current configuration south of the station. A new access track from the Brighton was constructed on the eastmost side (currently used by the 'D' and 'Q').
I believe the old tile on the outer walls shows the old north limit of the station and the break in the wall between the current Tunnel tracks and the bypass tracks is where the old crossovers were from the bypass to the Tunnel (northbound) and to the bypass from the Tunnel track (southbound). Access to the northbound bypass from the Brighton was also eliminated; there was never a connection from the southbound bypass south of DeKalb to the Brighton.
The delays caused by the so-called "bottleneck" were simply transferred from the southbound side to the northbound side
BTW, there was a very interesting historical handout the ERA distributed on a fan trip in the early 1960s which made a good argument that DeKalb was originally planned to be a local station, with all expresses bypassing en route to Bridge or Tunnel and the layout really seemed to back that up--Fourth Avenue expresses did not have their own entrance into DeKalb, which you'd expect at a major station.
Using 1954, this was the track usage (from the eastmost track--the current northbound Bridge track); I'm sorry I don't have my Dougherty track book handy so I can't give the track numbering:
Rush Hour:
Eastmost Track (current Bridge access):
Fourth Avenue Local (to Tunnel and Broadway)
West End Local (to Tunnel, Nassau, Bridge to Brooklyn)
Second Track (current Tunnel access):
Brighton Express (to Bridge and Broadway)
Brighton Local (to Tunnel and Broadway)
Northbound Bypass Track (current Bypass):
Brighton Special (to Bridge and Nassau) (AM only)
Fourth Avenue Special (to Bridge and Nassau) (AM only)
Sea Beach Express (to Bridge and Broadway)
West End Express (to Bridge and Broadway)
Culver Express (to Bridge, Nassau, Tunnel to Bklyn)
Southbound Bypass Track (current Bypass):
Fourth Avenue Special (from Nassau--Broad St. via Bridge, skipping Myrtle & DeKalb)
West End Express (from Broadway via Bridge)
Sea Beach Express (from Broadway via Bridge)
Culver Express (from Nassau via Tunnel, stopping at Court & Lawrence)
Southbound Inner Track (current track from Tunnel):
Brighton Express (from Broadway via Bridge, stopping at Myrtle)
Brighton Local (from Broadway via Tunnel)
Brighton Special (from Nassau via Tunnel, stopping at Court and Lawrence)
Southbound Outer Track (current track from Bridge):
Fourth Avenue Local (from Broadway via Tunnel)
West End Local (from Nassau via Bridge, stopping at Myrtle)
Non-Rush Hours:
Brighton and Fourth Avenue Specials, West End Locals and Culver Expresses didn't operate.
Brighton Expresses didn't operate overnight or on Saturday afternoons and Sundays. Brighton Locals ran over the Bridge, originally in "theatre hours" from 9:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m. or so, and in later years all night and on weekends.
West End expresses stopped at DeKalb in both directions and ran express on Broadway and on Fourth Avenue to and from 36th Street.
Sea Beach expresses skipped DeKalb and Myrtle at all hours and ran express on Fourth Avenue. Culver locals used the same tracks in DeKalb as the Fourth Avenue local , going through the Tunnel to and from Chambers. (After the Church--Ditmas connection opened, the Culver ran as a late-night shuttle between Ditmas and 36th Street until the TA decided that it would be more effective to discourage Culver riders from riding the trains if it were cut back completely to 9th Avenue, thus forcing an extra change and the climbing of a long flight of stairs. and history shows that it worked.)
Equipment:
As to the cars used, most of the time prior to the early 1960s when new R-types were delivered, Brighton and Sea Beach Expresses had D-type (Triplex) cars, and all other service had BMT Standards. By the mid-1960s, an occasional West End (with a '3' on the end) used Ds.
In the late 1940s and early 1950s, R-1s were operated on the Fourth Avenue Local; I think 140 or 150 cars were brought over to alleviate a car shortage (and also to make sure the BMT didn't get any of the new R-10 cars).
In the mid-1950s, Culver service, express or local, was handled by the 25 refurbished motor cars bought from the SIRT and numbered 2900--2924. They were nice looking cars, with maroon and blue exteriors and rattan walkover seats which I think were fastened permanently in place. It seemed odd to see what looked like a BMT Standard with a suburban or commuter seat arrangement and with wide, IRT-style side doors. They were sometimes called "E-types" to fit them into the BMT car classification scheme. The five trailers were not used in service. It turned out that they would not train with the Standards, so were used until retired on the Franklin and Culver shuttles.
One last thought--coming from the Tunnel southbound, the home signal had three different route indications, the only one in the system:
Green or yellow over green was straight ahead to the Brighton; green or yellow over yellow was alignment to move right onto the Fourth Avenue Local track; and green or yellow over blue (used by the Culver Express) was alignment to move left onto the bypass track to the Fourth Avenue express tracks
As I said at the start, a complex question and a long answer!
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Only one thing to add about the reconstruction of the late 1950s. While it may have only moved the bottleneck from the north end of the station to the south, it did replace the crossovers with a flying junction which did help the situation.
-- Ed Sachs
And, in the process, the Myrtle Ave. station, specifically the southbound platform, was sacrificed. Besides, moving the DeKalb platforms northward brought the station that much closer to Myrtle Ave., deeming that station as being redundant. Supposedly, the back wall tiles of the southbound portion can still be seen. I'll have to ride on a Brooklyn-bound train over the bridge this fall, assuming it will still be standing, and check it out. It's been a long time since I've done that, although I have ridden on numerous Manhattan-bound trains over the bridge and have seen the northbound Myrtle Ave. platform.
P. S. Both the Brighton and Sea Beach lines were served by Triplexes and BMT standards, although most of the Triplexes ran on the Brighton.
Steve B mentions BMT Standards on the Brighton and Sea Beach expresses. I know the Standards inaugurated Sea Beach subway service and would also have been used on the Brighton until the end of the 1920s, but in the 1940s and 1950s I don't think either the Brighton or the Sea Beach Broadway express service ever operated with BMT Standards. (I never saw one, for whatever that's worth.) Could anyone verify Standards on those two routes (even certain memory of riding in one)? It was extremely ususual even to see Triplexes on the Brighton-Bridge Local.
The 242 D cars (30 trains) seemed to have been enough for those two services without also using Standards. (On the Brighton Line, both the Nassau St. Special and the Franklin express used Standards, as did the local services.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
My Mother remembers BMT Standard cars on the Brighton Express (#1/"Q") during the rush hours. TWO white marker lights in front, she says. This would be in the mid-late 1940s, perhaps even the early 1950s. She also remembers the D-types running from Beverly Road, ostensibly the local. One time she accidentally got on board what she called the "Nassau Loop" (#1-Bankers/"M") at Church Avenue and wound up going past De Kalb (her transfer stop) - she panicked and had a hard time finding her way back from Chambers Street.
Wayne
Ed: The Sea Beach used Standards from 1915 to May 16,1932. After that the D Types were used exclusively until May 27,1959,after that about half the trains were Standards.
The Brighton Express used only Standards until April 27,1950, after that both Standards and Triplexes were used until May 27,1959 when the Triplexes became the usual equiptment.
Brighton Local used both Standards and Triplexes until April 27,1950 when the D's were assigned to the Brighton Express.
Larry,RedbirdR33
While my memory may not be perfect, in riding the Sea Beach (or Fourth
Avenue Special) on an almost daily basis from February of 1959 through June of 1965, I never once saw a Sea Beach with Standards. And earlier, between September of 1953 and June of 1957 (high school years), even though my usual trains were Sea Beaches or Fourth Avenues (Special or Local), I never saw a Brighton Express (except the Special and the Franklin) with anything other than D-types duirng those years.
Obviously that doesn't mean that Sea Beaches didn't sometimes operate with Standards, but I find it difficult to believe that if half the service was being operated with Standards after May of 1959, in six years of almost daily riding I never saw one.
BTW, someone mentioned marker lights. The Brighton Express in both directions used Red/Green; the Local via Tunnel to Astoria had Red/Red; the Local via Tunnel to Coney Island or 57th Streeet had White/White. The Bridge Local also used Red/Green. For some reason, my marker light list (from 1954 or early 1955, hand-copied at the BMT Trainmaster's office on Jay Street) leaves out the Brighton Special, but northbound I believe it was White/White. Southbound I'm not sure of--White/White was used by the Local going to Coney Island, so that would have been too confusing. Red/Green rings a bell in my mind, but that was used by the Bridge Express, which only ran to Brighton Beach. Does anybody remember the marker lights on the Brighton Special?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Ed: I started railfanning back around 63 and although I only occasionally visted the Sea Beach Line my recollections is always of Standards with the odd R-27 on the weekends. I usually associate the D's with the Brighton Exp up until they switched to the West End.
Larry,Redbird R33
The D's were the backbone of the Sea Beach for over 30 years. Except for the Franklin-Nassau service on sunny, summer sundays (B's were used here), the D's were the sole equipment used on this line.
Carl M.
James:
This is a simplified listing of the BMT Routes through Dekalb Av in the period just before the openning of the Chrystie Street Connection,
#1(Q) Brighton-Broadway Exp via Bridge 57 St/7Av-Brighton Beach
M-F 6A-7P
#1(QB)Brighton-Broadway Lcl via Tunnel Astoria-Coney Island
M-F 12 mid-6a,7p-12 mid,Sat and Sun All Day
#1(QT)Brighton-Broadway Lcl via Tunnel Astoria-Coney Island
M-F 6a-7p
#1(M) Brighton-Nassau St Exp via Tunnel
Brighton Beach-Chambers St ntbd only am rush
Chambers St-Coney Island stbd only pm rush
#2(RR)Fourth Av-Broadway Lcl via Tunnel
71-Continental Avs-95 St/4 Av M-F
57 St/7 Av-95 St All other times
#2(M) Fourth Av-Nassau St Exp via Bridge
95St/4 Av - Broad St Manhattanbound only am rush
#2(S) Fourth Av-Nassau St Lcl via Bridge
Broad St-95 St/4 Av via Bridge Brooklynbound only pm rush
#2 Fourth Av-Nassau St Lcl via Tunnel
Pre am rush stbd only,put-ins from layup
#3(T) West End-Broadway Exp via Bridge
M-F 6a-10a,4p-8p
Astoria/Queensboro Plaza-Bay Parkway/Coney Island
BYPASSES DEKALB
Sat 6a-8p
57 St/7Av-Coney Island
#3(TT)West End-Nassau St Lcl via Tunnel M-F 6a-6p
Chambers St-9 Av or Bay Parkway (Rush) Coney Island
(Midday)
#3(TT)West End-Broadway Exp via Tunnel
Canal St/Broadway-Coney Island
pre-am rush stbd,post pm rush ntbd for Canal St layup
#4(N) Sea Beach-Broadway Exp via Bridge
57 St/7 Av-Coney Island All Times,BYPASS DEKALB in rush
Note that I have included both the route letter and route number.
Standards (A,B,BT) carried Route Names only on the side signs
D-Types(Triplexes)carried a route number of the front and route
names on the side.
R-Types(R-27,30,30A,32A,32) carried route letters and names on
both the front and side signs.
Larry,Redbird R33
I didn't get a chance to mention this yesterday, but May 24 marks 169 years of continuous rail passenger service in the U.S. The Baltimore and Ohio started service on May 24, 1830. I believe they used horse-drawn cars at the beginning.
Let's hope for another 169 years at least.
May 24, Ithink, is also the day the Brooklyn Bridge opened, and a few other things...the date seems to have some serious signifigance.
-Hank
Yes, the Brooklyn Bridge did open on that date in 1883. I remember the hoopla that went on over the 100-year celebration.
According to yesterday's Star-Ledger, these also happened on May 24:
1819: Queen Victoria was born (wasn't she always 80 years old?).
1844: Samuel Morse opened first U.S. telegraph line (Washington-Baltimore).
1941: German battleship Bismarck sank H.M.S. Hood.
And, for us Mets fans:
Al Weis hit one of his seven major league home runs on that day in 1968, off Cecil Upshaw of Atlanta. He came close to hitting another one that same day, batting lefthanded. He hit the dinger batting right. Gil Hodges ordered champagne for the occasion.
The telegraph, the Brooklyn Bridge, and the (U.S. passenger) railroad all opened on May 24! Sounds like it is indeed an auspiious date for transportation/communication innovations.
But do horse-drawn cars really count as a "railroad"?
Well, I'm not sure. Horse-drawn streetcars counted as a "transit system." Ihe slow speeds of horsecars were adequate for local transit for several decades, but they didn't last long on main-line railroads. The first B&O service went to Ellicott Mills, MD. How far is that from central Baltimore? I think it's only eight or ten miles.
Ellicott Mills (City) is about 11 miles from Mount Clair Station (Today's B&O Railroad Museum). This included a change of horses at Relay, MD (the location got its name from the activity and still exists today), about 5.5 miles out.
Car 271 was leading southbound out of Chamblee station and the headlights and tail lights were illuminated at the same. This train could be coming or going. TRUE INCIDENT!!
I believe that this is (or was at one time) standard operating practice for the LIRR during the morning rush. The use of both tail lights and head lights is an indication of something -- I just can't remember what. It's either an indicator that the train will not stop at Jamaica or it's an indicator that the train is operating with less than its usual alottment of cars.
Both head and tail lights on the LIRR means the train has fewer than the normal number of cars -- thus alerting people that if they're standing at the "10" car marker, for example, the train will stop short of them.
Yes as everyone said LIRR will display head and tail lights when operating short trains. This does not violate any rule of the road or FRA regulation and is considered safe operating. White lights are only shown in the direction of operation I assume.
The tail and headlights illuminated at the same time on MARTA is an illustration of a broken train.
Is the Bergen Street station on the IND completely back in service now.
yes
Speaking to a tower operator that works the Bergen tower....It is usable, however the only switches that are used are the one upstairs. This is for the G and F service. The switches downstairs are blocked and clamped for the F service to run normal. There is no use of the express tracks from Bergen to 4th Avenue. One side note is that they are not allowed to run work trains over the F line. All work trains to and from the city at night must use the Manhattan Bridge and 4th Av.
Does anyone have control line drawings for the following?
Myrtle Avenue El to Bridge-Jay Street
Culver Shuttle
Third Avenue El in the Bronx
Second and Third Avenue El's in Manhattan
Need a copy of them. Recent promises for these have failed.
Hi all,
Just wanted to point out that there is a web board out there specifically about trolleys and streetcar transit:
http://www.trolleycars.com/electric_junction/wwwboard.html
Enjoy!
-Dave
Hay Dave, thanks AGAIN ... added a bookmark there :-)
Mr t
Good place for streetcar threads, as well as useful info for museums and streetcar properties. Been there many times myself, thanks, Dave for pointing it out!
I was wondering - what was the accident & sickness rate among
conductors who worked outside the trains, as in the D-Types? Could
they go inside between stations in the cold? Were there times where
a conductor would get struck while the train was in motion? Morbid,
I know- but I shudder just to think of those outside stations.
[ could conductors on Triplex cars come in from cold ]
I don't know about sickness statistics, but what ours Mom always told us about bad weather making you sick is not true. Lots of people work outside in challenging weather--look at letter carriers.
Conductors did not ride outside between stations. Their greatest danger appeared to be in climbing between the car and their outside posts at each station--they had to be really cautious in slippery weather.
Remember that oustide conductors were the rule on almost all equipment (BMT Standards being the major exception) until (I think) the R-16 order in 1953.
Outside conductors on equipment where they stood high and could lean out (Triplexes, BMT elevated rebuilds, early R-types, IRT subway equipment) probably enhanced passenger safety since they could more easily observe the train than the current inside positions.
The R-15s were the first postwar cars to have door controls in the cabs.
A unique feature on the Triplexes was that the conductor could, and did, operate the doors from inside the car if it was running alone and not as part of a train.
< A unique feature on the Triplexes was that the conductor could, and did, operate the doors from inside the car if it was running alone and not as part of a train. >
True, SB, the outside controls were mirrored inside, but these controls could not operate the doors on the units across the coupler from the control position, as you implied in your post.
In practice, I never saw a Triplex train of fewer than two units (that on the Franklin Shuttle) where the doors could practically have been controlled from inside in revenue service.
If there were a candidate for such operation, I would nominate the Culver Shuttle. Does anyone know of any operation where a single D-type was actually used? (Where/when?)
Out of curiosity - why were the door controls EVER outside in the first place? I know the LIRR MP-54s had them inside all along, and they predate the R series by about 20 years.
Also, my mom SWEARS when she was a kid, she'd see the conductors riding between cars as the subway pulled in. Did this ever happen, or is she just pulling my leg? When were the last outside door cars retired?
On a less related note - remember those ads on the radio with Evil Kenevil telling us not to ride between subway cars? What ever happed to those?
Last cars to run in regular passenger service in the NYCTS
(not counting the museum Lo-Vs on the shuttle in 1994)
were the R-10s, retired in 1987.
Why were the door controls outside? That's an interesting
question. The IRT came up with MUDC first. Let's look at
the history of doors on the IRT. On the Manhattan el system,
there were no doors, just gates operated by gatemen. The
gateman stood on the platform and operated doors on two cars
at once by pulling two levers, one per arm.
The Hi-Vs (Composites, Gibbs and other car types delivered
1904-1914) were delivered with 2 sliding single doors per side
rather than the platform-and-gate system of the el cars.
The guard performed an analogous function in opening the doors
of cars on either side of him, except this time it was via
a big lever mounted on the end of the car, connected to an
overhead system of levers and slides. You could operate these
doors while standing down at vestibule (anti-climber) height.
When the center doors were added to the Hi-Vs starting around
1910, a little box was placed on the door lever which operated
an air valve which controlled the pneumatic center door slide.
I believe it was at this time that a small step was added on
the front of the car so the guard could see what was going on
at the center door when he closed it.
The first Lo-Vs were delivered with 3 doors per side and a
similar system, except all 3 doors were electro-pneumatic and
controlled via a push-button panel on the end of the car, which
was reachable by standing on the little step.
Starting in 1921, the IRT began converting cars to MUDC to eliminate
a guard between each pair of cars. All that was done was to add
a new jumper socket for trainline circuits and re-use the existing
controls. Some cars, such as the Deckroofs (as in Shore Line
Trolley Museum's 3662) never got the MUDC conversion and lived
out their life with the big levers.
The BRT/NYM (New York Municipal) company did not place a true
"subway" car order until the Standards of 1914. As has been discussed
here before, they did not arrive with MUDC, and must have been
very labor-intensive as each car required a conductor (or were
they called "guards" by the BRT?) The BRT/NYM/BMT MUDC solution
was to trainline the existing middle-of-car controls. No 4-car
observation of the platform back then, I suppose :)
My guess, and this is only conjecture, is that when the BMT placed
the order for the D-types in 1924, they imitated the IRT's MUDC
practice since that seemed to work OK. Thus the outside controls.
As mentioned by a previous poster, they also had the ability to
function with inside controls, although in that mode the drum
switch circuits were not made up trainline and thus that was
limited to single-unit configurations.
The R-type design borrowed heavily from the BMT technology.
Thus the use of outside door controls on R1-9 orders
as well as R-10, 12 and 14. It wasn't until the complete
body re-design of the R-15 that someone got the bright idea
to move the door controls into the cab.
< Out of curiosity - why were the door controls EVER outside in the first place? I know the LIRR MP-54s had them inside all along, and they predate the R series by about 20 years. >
I don't want to duplicate Jeff H., excellent post on this. A question in my mind is why the BMT went to outside door controls on the Triplexes after having built 950 Standards with inside controls.
I think we need to remember that the old operating companies were (shall we say) less solicitous of their employees' comfort vs. operational considerations than today. As I pointed our, there are safety advantages (for the patrons) to an outside conductor. Also, remembering what it was like to ride in the Standards, the inside conductor had a significant problem during rush hours moving from side to side in a crowded car, and having to lean out an active door while being hindered by entering and exiting passengers.
< Also, my mom SWEARS when she was a kid, she'd see the conductors riding between cars as the subway pulled in. Did this ever happen, or is she just pulling my leg? When were the last outside door cars retired? >
Mom's Don't Lie! ;-) At least yours isn't. The conductors were expected to be in position before the train came to a stop, and to watch the train leaving the station. So yes, you would see the conductor between the cars as the train pulled in. But they didn't stay between the cars as the train traveled, although they often stood between the cars on the wide platform at the doorways. I imagine for very close together stations, like Beverley and Cortelyou, they stayed at the operating position.
< On a less related note - remember those ads on the radio with Evil Kenevil telling us not to ride between subway cars? What ever happed to those? >
Aren't those like commercials with President Bush telling you to eat your vegetables, but he won't touch his broccoli? (Do as I say, not as I do.)
I used to observe the conductor moving into position on the R-7/9s when they ran on the Canarsie line. On Brooklyn-bound trains, I would sit in the third or fourth car (until around January of 1970, when I started riding in the first car out to Brooklyn), where the conductor camped out between stations. He would climb onto the step plates as the train was slowing down, and by the time it stopped, he was ready to open the doors. After the train started moving, he would remain outside for the obligatory three car lengths, then climb down and step back inside the car. Since I got into the habit early on of watching trains depart from a station, I would often see the conductor still on his perch, and he would often click on the trigger caps a few times before stepping down.
I also observed the conductor on the Canarsie when the R-42s appeared, and can recall seeing the "Open" and "Close" buttons on the cab console.
The Myrtle Ave. Q types are a good example. When only one 3 car set was used, the conductor operated inside the last car, yet when 2 units were used he had to "climb the steps" and work in between cars.
Maybe David Pirmann can start a new bulletin board call SigTalk. It will be used by engineers and people in the signal and train control field.
Go for it David. It will be a big hit I'm sure.
With all these bulletin boards I hope we don't get our signals crossed :-).
Hey, put down than wrench!!!
Any NYCTA Signal Maintainers listenin? Let's start some conversations of signals and control lines.
On the redbirds, what are those handlebars in between cars?
I don't mean the grabirons, I mean the bars above the grabirons.
They are two of them very high up and are solid metal except they
are two small slits in them. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, please post.
Maybe the radio antenna?
Hey John & Jeff H., That is a Radio Antenna but they don't used it any more because they now used walking talking and they carry all the time.
Peace Out
David (a.k.a. Mean DJ) Justiniano
Today, I saw the R-110A at Gun Hill Road's center track with the doors open. Inside each car was about 15 subway wheels stacked on top of each other and wires all over the place. I know a friend who works for Kawasaki with that train saw I tried to find him, and I did. He said that they were testing it with all those wheels on it to simulate real people on board. He also noted to me that the TA does not like the new R-142 from Bombardier and that they want major modifications. Therefore, since Kawasaki is building the cars of the exact same specs as Bombardier, Kawasaki will have to make these modifications too. This will probably delay the start of service for these trains.
GOOD! I can't wait to tell Simon his beloved Redbirds have won yet another reprieve. I am sure there are countless other folks who feel the same way. Why couldnt they just build a nice utilitarian train like the R62 (or even the R33/36 for that matter) instead of all these dopey hi-tech bells and whistles. No, nobody wants to "keep it simple". Simple lasts longer! What a bunch of blockheads!
Wayne
Just like with the R-44 and now the R-142 and CBTC. The TA always forgets the first rules of mechanics and of engineering=
If it ain't broke: DON'T FIX IT!
and:
Keep it simple, stupid.
What are you and Wayne trying to do: put a bunch of suits in New Car Engineering out of a job? LOL!!!!!
Why not new??
Get some money back with retrograde braking or whatever it is called.
Isn't the R68 back to basics keep it new BULLSh*t that created a lousy car?
Simple. High tech breaks.
Look at the reliability of ther GG-1.
Now look at the AEM-7/ALP-44.
I rest my case.
Everyone wants:
More Comfortable
Faster
Smoother
Quieter
Cooler
Safer
and so on...
A subway car is a heavy steel box which needs:
Motors
Brakes
Some way of controlling the above so that they work together.
Windows (which preferably open)
Lights (including headlights and markers)
Doors
Seats
Anything more than that is window dressing. Increasing R-numbers correspond to increasing complexity. An R-1/4/6/7/9 train will perform as well as an R-68. It lacks amenities, but gets the job done, using less power and discharging less heat into the subway in the summer.
(Sorry Wayne, but the R-40 is still too complex for my liking :) )
And an R-1/9 is/was a helluva lot faster than an R-68. And it SOUNDED much more interesting, too.
Well, the R40 technology dates to its design in 1966 and its ultimate execution in 1967. I like those cars because a) they look neat and b) they move. It matters not what is under the "hood" (make that "floorboards"). True, they're not such a simple machine. But they sure are special to me.
Riding one of them (#4314) as it blasted its way up the Brighton line, leaving three ANF-Westinghouse (AdTranz) snails in its wake - it don't get much better than that.
And YES, I do agree wholeheartedly:
KEEP IT SIMPLE!
Wayne
The problem is, though, selling it to the "public"...i.e. the Politicians and the Media..Its gotta sound sexy,or ya dont get funding. Ya gotta be able to say "ooo were giving you automated station stop announcements;" or "ooo were going to this blah-blah hi tech gadget" cause you gotta compete on the news with every new tiny gadget that comes out. YOU go on TV and say: "were going to give you basic comfortable transportation....theres no new technologies..just whats worked for almost 100 years....." Sounds boring to this tech hyped society....
A little update here. The delivery date for the R-142A from Bombardier will be the only one that is postponed. Kawasaki's delivery is still on schedule.
The R-110A will return in passenger service once testing is done which should be by Friday (5/28/99). The TA wants it back in service.
Uhhh, now that summer is coming, cars with the amenity called air conditioning are going to be a big plus. Imagine cramming a rush hour crowd into a really hot, stuffy car. I still remember what it was like on an non-air conditioned IRT car. Even the poles were hot!
Besides, since the R1/4/6/7/9 had a carbon steel body, it was not as light as it could have been (like the R32).
Peg and I found #1374 on the 4 line with absolutely NO A/C yesterday. It was actually blowing superheated air. This was the first time I'd experienced a Kawasaki with No A/C.
Thank goodness we were only going one stop, from 149-Concourse to 161st-Yankee Stadium. I passed a written note to the T/O advising him as to the condition in the second car - he smiled and thanked me.
All other A/C'd cars appeared to be working properly yesterday.
#4902-4903 on the "N" was just a tad warm, but I think this is to be expected from the NYCT GOH'd R42's.
R38 #4060 on the "A" was in especially fine shape, almost too cold for comfort. I'll take that kind of A/C anyday.
Wayne
That happens sometimes on these trains when the A/C doesn't work. Over on the No.2 Line the A/C was working good on the R 33 Redbirds.
I once had a car blowing in hot air in my operating position on a
R 29 on the No.6 Line I was burning up my the time I got to Parkchester. I called Control but the say just put it on the Car Defect sheet. I got the RCI at Parkchester and he said the train will go out of service on the return to Pelham. But the train was sent down the road once I got back to Pelham.
That's why the door hangers should have been kept in these cars, rather than being removed. The Flushing R-33's still have them because they are not air conditioned. But a subway car in which the a/c is blowing hot air is just like an un-a/c'd subway car with fans blowing hot air!
The door hangers should have been kept just in case (I think the R-62's on the #3 line still have them, though), so that they could keep the storm doors open and at least get some sort of a breeze.
Even PATH trains still have them, and we all know how they are about riding and crossing between cars!
A/C is not rocket science, I work for a leading supplier of A/C systems and components. Some of our "newest" compressors are high efficency versions of those we made 40 years ago. The diffrences are mostly small internal parts and tighter machining tolerances. They look the same but the newer ones are HIGH TECH because the machines with the capability to make them didn't exist a few years ago. The nice thing about this is that this equipment could be designed into a subway car and work reliably from day one. In the design phase, subsystems such as A/C should be designed to drop into swing out trays. (This was done on postwar intercity passenger cars) if a unit has a problem, the tray swings out and the unit is repaired easily or even quickly replaced if need be. there is no need for A/C failure on a rail car if the systems are properly maintained Also, this swing out design allows for easy upgrades to newer technology during the life of the car. furthermore, when a car is retired, subsystems which have further life remaining can be removed for use elsewhere in the fleet
That's the way they'ree going about it on the R142, R143, and the LIRR Bi-Levels. The A/C is in a 'package' that can be replaced in a 1/2 hour, if neccesary. All the important componants are in the same place, unlike the current cars, where you have different parts of the system in the ceiling and below the car floors.
-Hank
> That's why the door hangers should have been kept in these cars, rather than being removed. The Flushing R-33's
> still have them because they are not air conditioned. But a subway car in which the a/c is blowing hot air is just like
> an un-a/c'd subway car with fans blowing hot air!
What exactly do you mean by "door hangers"?
- Lyle
Actually, "door hanger" is the wrong term. He's referring to the device at the upper left corner of a storm door (as viewed from the inside of the car) that held the storm door open. The non-air-conditioned R-10 through R-40 cars had it, as did (for some reason) the R-62/62A/68s and maybe the R-68As (haven't ridden one in a while and don't remember).
David
[> That's why the door hangers should have been kept in these cars, rather than being removed. The Flushing R-33's
> still have them because they are not air conditioned. But a subway car in which the a/c is blowing hot air is just like
> an un-a/c'd subway car with fans blowing hot air!
What exactly do you mean by "door hangers"?]
Can some of you older sub talkers tell me how people survived in the subway with no air conditioning? Was it cooler down there with no A/C pumping hot air into the stations? What about getting to work without becoming one big smelly sweatball? I'm only 19 and the only things i can remember from past subway experience is the grafitti covered R27-R30s on the Brighton line. I also remember seeing some crazy mixed consists back sometime in 1985 or so. I once saw R40-R27-R42 running coupled together at newkirk ave on the D.whats the deal with that? What was the RR train? (it was a light green diamond with a white RR in the middle) I remember the R44s on the A with their blue stripe and no digital signs. Help me refresh my memory and put me on to what the subway in the late 1970s-80s was like....
You simply dressed a comfortably as possible and braced yourself for a hot ride. For a man this was difficult if you wore the mandated tie and jacket to work, even lightweight summer suits. The stations were a little cooler than now because of the absence of A/C on the trains, but the overall atmosphere was much worse due to the hot conditions on the trains. The Manhattan IRT trains were generally worse due to their smaller dimensions and shallow, waterproofed tunnels. When you arrived at work the first stop was often the men's room to wash your face and cool off a bit - when you arrived home a "gin and tonic onnarox" would often be a good idea!
The "RR" train was basically what today's "R" train is except in the late 70s it went to Astoria rather than 71st-Continental, which was served by the "N" for a while. Then they switched again in the early 80s. They ran R27/30s then R32s on it back then. R42s were also used.
The green sign was more of a bright green, similar to that seen on today's #4/#5/#6 lines.
They also had special "RR" which went up Nassau Street to Chambers Street during the rush hours. At first these had green signs. When they went to Single Letters, they changed it briefly to a brown Diamond "R" then they discontinued it in favor of the "M".
Wayne
It really wasn't as hot as it is today, but then, going from a cool a/c car to a hot platform, well, the platform feels hotter than it actually is. When I used to commute to lower Manhattan from Marcy Ave. 25 years ago, I used to try to stand under an R27/30 fan. I survived. It is much hotter on the platforms today, due to all that hot air/body heat being thrown out into the tunnels and all the dispatchers offices, relay rooms & towers with air condutioners. The heat doesn't leave till November! My hottest place vote: the lower level past Continental Ave. where the R & G trains relay and lead to Jamaica Yard.
This is a subjective response (also three weeks late), but during the summer of 1967, I would have a hard time imagining a station that was hotter than 14th St. on the Lexington Ave Line.
Come ride the E. I don't know which station is hotter: Parsons/Archer or WTC.
That Station is still hot. South Ferry is another Hot Station.
Putting up with the heat in the cars also depended on what type of car you were in. If you rode the R1/9's or BMT standards, it wasn't that bad as the cars had big ceiling fans and generated a good breeze. R-10's had those little fans throughout the roof of the car and were tolerable. I think the hottest car I ever rode on was on a pre-rebuilt R-38 in the middle of summer. Fans were spinning, but very hot air was blowing out of them.
Also remember that back in thoe old days, storm doors were all kept open during the summer months. If you were near the end of the car, you usually caught a breeze.
The R38s sounded like the Almond joys here in Philly. The only ting the fans did was make a hellava lot of noise
The most useless fans, probably because of their covers actually supressing the fan air were R32's 3800 to 3949 and R38's 3950-4139. And remember how filthy the ceiling was around the covers?
ALSO TRUE of the Slant R40 Current #4150-4349. Never have I seen more soot, grit, grime, and dirt than around those vent openings. Weren't they the same fans?
BTW the ones I was on Friday on the "Q" were immaculate. Even the ceilings were spotless. Kudos to the cleaning folks!
Wayne
Maybe it's time to whip out my R-43 design from back in 1970. In my mind's eye, this hybrid R42/R15 would still be running, even after a "GOH" by GE-Buffalo Transit in 1991.
Why in heaven's name can't they create another SMEE car instead of opting for all this hi-tech junk? Whose goose is getting fat at our expense anyway? I don't want all this newfangled nonsense- I want another fleet of R32/R38s! Wind 'em up, watch 'em go and don't worry about GOH until 2023.
The "suits" have to go back to the drawings books and discover for themselves what has ultimately stood the test of time.
Wayne
"I don't want all this newfangled nonsense- I want another fleet of R32/R38s!"
Go and buy some.
I actually like the R-44 to R-68 BMT/IND type trains. They have more comfortable seats, and some of the seats actually face forward. I like facing forward on trains, just like in cars. I was a bit disappointed when I saw the designs for the new trains, because they had no seats that faced forwards. I understand that having such seats would reduce the total number of seats on the trains, but they should have continued building 75-foot cars.
- Lyle Goldman
The passenger compartment is one thing, but from an operational standpoint, the only cars worth any salt if the R46.
I have to agree. The R-46 is a good car. It's just one of those gut feelings. The downside with the 75-footers is the fact they can't be used on the Eastern Division.
They can't build 75' cars for the IRT, let alone 60' cars. The R142 is an IRT order, and the cars are limited to a maximum size of appx. 51' long and appx. 8' wide.
-Hank
> They can't build 75' cars for the IRT, let alone 60' cars. The R142 is an IRT order, and the cars are limited to a maximum
> size of appx. 51' long and appx. 8' wide.
> -Hank
I was actually talking about the new B-Division cars that have not been delivered yet. It is basically an issue tangential to the original topic.
- Lyle
Actually, I think the laterally aligned seats allow for more, since they take up the aisle space.
> Actually, I think the laterally aligned seats allow for more, since they take up the aisle space.
You'd think so, wouldn't you?
Actually, though, with the shortened length of the cars and the increased width of the doors, the space between the doors and the windows seems to allow only one sideways-facing seat, with some room left over which is wasted, if there are forward-facing seats by the windows. Since there must be leg room in front of all seats, the four forward/backward seats have about the same capacity as the section of a seat bench against the window. Plus, if we have a bench, the wasted space against the wall could be combined into room for another person sitting. This effectively causes the sideways-facing bench seats to allow for an extra person between each pair of doors. Since there are four pairs of doors on each of the two sides, the sideways seats could seat six more people per car than forward/backward seats. If the cars were longer, then forward-facing seats might not cause a reduction in seating capacity, which is why I like the 75-foot cars.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I got these figures mostly from personal observations.
- Lyle
Bombardier also manufactured the new T-1 cars just deployed to Toronto's Yonge - University subway line and from what I've been told, acceptance of these cars has been VERY good, exceeding expectations. I am not sure what new components are in these cars but I do know they have AC motors and, having been able to ride them last week, run very smoothly.
--Mark
Yeah, but who built the M4s and the new Norristown cars for SEPTA? Problem after problem, and everything was late.
-Hank
That's ADtranz - no further comment is needed.
Bombardier's R62A cars are quite good. I understand they were made in Jonquiere PQ and also in Barre VT; the current problems stem from a manufacturing plant in upstate NY. Perhaps quality control was not such an issue at the Quebec and Vermont plants. Aren't some of the Metroliner coaches also Bombardier?
Wayne
The IRT has been lucky over the years -- they really haven't had a `turkey' train since the hybrid Flivers back in 1908.
Part of the reason for that may be the Interborough, and then the BOT the TA and the MTA have always kept the cars simple, leaving the fancier bells and whisltes for the IND and BMT.
Unfortunatly, the IRT's luck may have run out with the R-142s, though at least the MTA has declined to accept the Bombardier orders so far, and the Kawasakis' initial quality may be a bit better.
The consolation is, the more they screw up, the longer the Redbirds and the railfan windows will still be around.
"The consolation is, the more they screw up, the longer the Redbirds and the railfan windows will still be around."
That's a perfect consolation prize, since consolation prizes are for the losers.
So let's see...
Based on your series of posts, you want the next series of trains to resemble the R-68s, which I would guess means as a railfan you enjoy zooming down CPW at 20 mph on the D, and are hoping the new cars do the same, but have a lot of bells and whistles like the R-110A and B with potentially high failure rates, based on past experience?
Or would you rather it be more like the R-44?
I was on a "D" today which actually reached a speed of 37MPH between 161st Street and 155th St-8th Avenue! Will wonders never cease?
Thank God for old warhorses like #4060, which took us from 34th St-Penn Station to Jay Street in Brooklyn in just under 15 minutes and then proceeded to tear up the rails from there to Euclid, under a mostly full green. Even the GT nest between Bway-ENY and Euclid didn't seem to faze it much. Great trains, those R38.
Wayne
no, Newness for NO PRACTICAL REASON but for it's own sake turns the system into a money pit, supplying employment for generations of engineers. Engineering is a profession I personally admire greatly. However, the designer must look for INCREMENTAL improvement melding that which worked in the past with some new improvements. also, a good designer looks to the users of the end product. Sub talkers are the end users, they want the 4S's Safe, Sure, Swift, and Smooth.these result in a fifth S, SAVINGS ***Pop Quiz***
Who styled the Alco PA, Answer Henry Dreyfus
Who styled the GG-1, Answer Raymond Lowey
Who styled the AEM-7/ALP-44, Who Knows, probably some cubicle jockey, Dilbert is highly suspected.
Great designers build machines that work and give lasting satisfaction
If you remember they had more "teething problems" than did their GE counterparts, such as wiring and propulsion and problems with the drawheads as they couldn't take South Ferry's radius for their first recall. I think that their NYAB brake units were BCOd at Livonia so they could claim the high MDBFs that they did.
I saw the R110A today! at 233 st Station On the (2) line It had a Diamond on it!!!
Yeah the TA gave them the whole strech of track from Gun Hill Road to E.180 Street to run tests. They can't do it from 238 St. to Gun Hill Rd because of the GO that's in effect. (Manhattan-bound express from 241 Street to Gun Hill Road.) The diamond S was for SPECIAL.
The R62A's run very well now, but the TA was not impressed with these cars either when they sent the test unit down. It was plagued with electrical problems and other problems and they had to be sent back to the drawing board so to speak and then they half way got it right.
The Kawasaki R62 is an execellent car and quite snappy before the modifications and even after it is fast. The R62 shares the same propoltion unit as the R40 Slants/R-40M's and the R46 and R44 SIR units.
Peace
DaShawn
Now I'm no lover of these cars, don't get me wrong. But from the TA's point of veiw, these are very succesful cars. MDBF, etc.
As for the crews, most of them love the damn things. The brakes are pretty good compared to some other models. And that full length cab makes everybody happy.
I for one, can't stand the damn things. Gimmie a train of R-40/42's anyday. I used to love the R-46's. Alas, that's life. I do like the R-44's. But only for one reason, which must remain clasified in the archives of Brass Balls Inc.
"I for one, can't stand the damn things. Gimmie a train of R-40/42's anyday."
Why, that's a great way to get them off the subway.
The problem is, as in the R-44, theyre STILL trying to force 21st century tech on a 19th-early 20th century system..its like trying to divide 10 into 5..you always end up half ass!!
Posted by a "Transit Professional:"
> Just like with the R-44 and now the R-142 and CBTC. The TA always
> forgets the first rules of mechanics and of engineering=
> If it ain't broke: DON'T FIX IT!
I actually like that proverb, it's grammar illustrates that it's author was just as stupid as the proverb he/she/it wrote. Had humanity chosen to follow the proverb as you see fit, there would be no trains, we would be riding horses and using stone tools.
> and:
> Keep it simple, stupid.
OK, this I can agree with. The stupid people can keep things simple, the rest of us can progress.
Wait a minute! When we refer to "keep it simple", we meant "keep the machine simple" - or - "don't overcomplicate the machine". In heavy-duty mass transit usage, the simplest machines with the most durable parts are the ones that see fifty years of service.
If you don't agree, just look at the R32s. Not a very complex design, just your basic SMEE car. 98% of the fleet still running after 34½ years, and providing yeoman service on high-volume routes like the "A" and "E" (not to mention the other routes they serve, the "C", "N" and "R"). Not bad.
Bells and whistles may appeal to some, but if you are going to have to put up with the amount of traffic and usage that a NYC subway car does, the best design is the one with the least tendency to break down - i.e. A simple design is best.
Wayne
Hey, wayne, engineers are insecure enough as it is. when I made a statement to the effect that a modern transit car could be designed with the propulsion and control equipment of an old interurban, I didn't mean that fine innovations such as roller bearings and slide/spool valve air portions should be left out, but that trying to reinvent the wheel for every contract number is what leads to "dogs" like the R-44 and engineers should look to the basics or the 4 S's Safe, Sure, Swift, And Smooth. If Somebody did an autopsy on an old Brill and used the technology (where applicable) in the construction of a mass transit vehicle, Then took that vehicle out to Pueblo, I bet it would open a lot of eyes, Jack's included
Jack,
You obviously disagree with the author of the original post; however, there is no need for you to get personal by insulting his intelligence. The individual in question is a frequent and long-time contributor, and probably has more detailed and varied operating knowledge of railroads than most other contributors to this forum. While you may not agree with him, please, at least keep it civil. Thank you.
subfan
I'm sorry if putting transit professional in quotes may have caused some misinterpretations of it. I put it in quotes because it's part of a nickname. As for the other stuff, I wasn't at all trying to insult his intelligence, rather insulting his little proverbs. I'm sorry if that brought offense to anyone. I'm not sorry if my actual hatred of reactionism insulted someone.
Yippee!!! Long live the Redbirds! Railfan windows and all!
You Know, Brill and others were building interurban cars that could go 70 MPH 80 YEARS AGO. Why don't those fancy engineers go to a trolley museum and reverse engineer one of those things. Let me see, a stiff underframe,strong collision posts,Air Conditioning, and a blow-molded plastic New age carbody even uglier than an R-144 powered by a propulsion and control system copied VERBATIM from say, a 1916 Kuhlman interurban. My big pet peeve with public (especially transit)projects is that the design boys go overboard on a basic machine that has been mechanically perfected for ALMOST A CENTURY the K.I.S.S. theory is the prime directive
Many of the North Shore interurbans were built by Cincinnati Car Co., I believe. They weighed about the same as the BMT standards, yet were capable of doing 90 mph on the Skokie Valley Route.
The South Shore's Big Orange cars were built by Pullman and were even heavier, at 60 tons apiece, and could also get up to 80-90 mph. During and immediately after WWII, 18 of them were lengthened and modernized. They ended up gaining 15 tons apiece and growing 17 feet longer.
The Electroliners were the R-32s of the North Shore. They could cruise at 80 mph without breaking a sweat.
i'll still take a redbird over any of these new hi tech wonders to nowhere.
"Why couldnt they just build a nice utilitarian train like the R62 (or even the R33/36 for that matter) instead of all these dopey hi-tech bells and whistles. No, nobody wants to "keep it simple". Simple lasts longer! What a bunch of blockheads!"
Simple last longer. I guess we should ask our friends from Sparta by how much they outlasted Athenian Civilization.
THIS MESSAGE BOARD IS NOT FOR "FLAMING RESPONSES" thank you very much.
If you don't like the subway, then walk. NO RESPONSE PLEASE.
I wasn't flaming. I do like the subway and I would like it if it progressed instead of stagnating as you would like to see happen to it. Simple isn't better for everyone. Some people like simple things, but by far our society prefers less simplicity.
Design should be an incremental process where the engineer/designer works from a solidly proven basis, making small improvements in design,always keeping in mind the utility for the end user. Subway cars ideally should last 40 years+- any unnecessary complexity that prevents this durability must be rooted out of the design, any innovations that enhance the life span are good engineering features that should be encouraged. Planned obsolesence is rightly criticized as BAD engineering. Most subway riders just want to "Get There". Obstacles to reliability just injure the utility to the customer. Good engineering provides for long life and modular construction to add newer technology as it BECOMES PROVEN during the life of the car.
If I was a manufacturer of Subway cars, I would rather have a business based on durable cars, a highly profitable renewal parts, upgrade and rebuild business with customers who keep on coming back for more than one based on cars that fall apart in a few years along with the builder, for an example of this, go over to bus talk and ask them what happened to a company called Flxible about 15 years ago. Some of my posts may make people think that I'm anti- business but that's not the case. I just think that Reaganomics went too far and we have to reimpose the rule of law on commerce before sovereignty passes from Government (One person, One vote) to Multinational corporations (One Dollar, One Vote) Who elected Greenspan any way. but commerce is the mechanism which makes modern life possible.
I wholeheartedly agree with your engineering point of view.
However, as Jack does have a valid opinion about not stagnating, there must be some way to strike a balance between good engineering/durability/ease of maintenance AND progressive design/state-of-the-art features. Let's put on our thinking caps.
Wayne
You have hit the nail on the head, that is the challenge which confronts ALL engineers. The engineers who successfully strike this balance achieve greatness within their profession which is richly deserved and also provide the marketplace with innovations which earn RESPECT in the marketplace rather than DERISION. Stagnation results when unproven technology fails, causing fear of innovation which results in customer rejection of even the best new ideas for improvement.
I think that the R-142s would work out better than the R-44 for example. Mainly because their technology has been tested in the real NY subway for a few years now, and problems could have been corrected. I'm sure that many people here (myself included) like the R-10. I'm also sure that at the time of it's delivery many people derided it because it was too advanced and wouldn't last a day. They preffered something traditional like the BMT Standard (which probably may have been controversial at introduction too) They lasted 40 years. Basically, it's simple human nature to stay with that which makes one comfortable. Over time, however, people will get used to new things.
It is important for the designer to look back at failures, to analize them to see what failed and why. on sub talk recently Steve discussed a problem with a certain vendor's brake valve where a plastic switch component was experiencing failure due to heat exacerbated by the ozone generated by the operation of the switch. that vendors valves were replaced by valves made by a competitor whose electrical engineer(s) were aware of the true operating environment that the component would be exposed to (maybe they used good OLD FASHIONED porcelain (great for thermal and ozone exposure but poor for mechanical shock but a little RTV somewhere in the mounting might help with that) or they could have used TFE (Teflon) but I believe that TFE cannot be molded, it would have to be machined and if machining cannot achicve the desired shape, Well, lets look at some other polymer. ALL THAT TORTURE FOR ONE PART but that is why Murphy is an engineer's constant companion. Forget one comsideration when innovating, and that's when Murphy's Law will GET YOU (if it can fail, it will and at the worst possible time) Of course, innovation is a good thing but the designer has to be careful. Remenber, technological "Home Runs" don't happen very often and when they do, it is almost always the result of much research. Let's look at a recent Home Run in the Railroad industry: The GM radial AC locomotive. GM engineers were doing field tests of radial trucks back in '82 and were probably running around their cubicles a couple years before that. thru the '80's more work was done such as the partnership with Siemens to develop the AC propulsion system and other parts of the locomotive such as the electrically operated parking (hand) brake. Finally in 1993, the first GM AC locomotives were delivered to a customer after years of lab work and field testing including several purpose built test locomotives. The result was a HUGE success, these locomotives represent the greatest advance in locomotive technlolgy since Steam. but it took many years and two multi-billion dollar companies to do it Engineers don't pull rabbits out of hats. but that's the whole challenge that is motivating me to go to night school so that someday I will be able to join the profession.
And I do apologize for making such a racket and jumping to conclusions.
Sorry about that!
Wayne
Well, I'm glad to see I've sparked such a lively debate. And Thank You, Subfan.
Let me clarify my statements. I should not have posted them the first time without doing so. I made an error in assuming my audience would agree with me in total.
I am not against new technology. To the contrary. I am a great proponent of AC traction. I have worked with it, and see it as the next wave in propulsion. I was a great fan of the P-wire. Where would we be today, without SMEE?
But I am against Technlogy for Technology's sake. All those bells and whistles, so to speak. Is it really needed? If not, then don't waste the money. A mass transit system used by millions daily is not a laboratory for engineers to try out their ideas. Look what happened to the TA with the R-44 and R-46.
As with all things in life, common sense and good judgement is called for, when making a new design for subway cars in the worlds greatest transit system.
I like new technology. Just not untested technology. That's what Pueblo's for. Not the IND.
RIGHT ON MY FRIEND!!!
The fact is thet the R-44 came on untested. The R-142 won't. What was the R-110 running for all these years,? To test the technology. The R-10 was new and relatively untested, yet it survived for 40 years and is looked back on by many as one of the best cars the subway has had.
The city rebuilt 1575 as the prototype R-10, which gave them some idea of what the real thing would be like. Of course, much of the mechanics were unchanged, and it never ran with the real R-10s, remaining as a part of the R-7/ R-9 trains until the end (and was a strange site to see all by its lonsome on the Eastern Division in the late 1960s and early 1970s).
The concern with the R-142, based on the stories that appeared back in March in the Post and Daily News, is that the people for Bombardier wiring the new cars may be in over their heads, and the more high-tech equipment there is, the more wiring is needed. Reading those articles, you get the feeling the first car deliveries may be at about the same quailty level as your average Chrysler Corp car, circa 1979, though hopefully, the MTA won't accept delivery until all those problems are solved.
Hear, Hear! Let's hear it for the R10's! They ran for 41 years. As for #1575, she is still alive, making her current home at the NYC Transit Museum in Court Street Station, and in very good condition, authentic to her original GOH in 1946 (after her initial brush with death as an R-7).
It is still a crying shame that no more than ONE R10 was salvaged as a museum piece *(a second one exists at Pitkin yard as a work car) and that the one remaining (#3184) continues to be exposed to the salt air at Coney Island. Not too good for a carbon steel car.
Wayne
1575 suffered from an identity crisis. It LOOKED like an R-10, but remained a two-motor, AMUE car, and stuck out like a sore thumb when running with its sister R-1/9s. The funny thing is, I never saw it in revenue service.
It is a shame that more R-10s weren't saved. I couldn't think of a better railfan trip than a train of R-10s signed up as an A and roaring along CPW.
We had it as the lead motor of a "KK" train on November 4, 1969 from B'way-Lafayette to Eastern Parkway. Due to a disabled something-or-other (may have been an "M") at Flushing Avenue, we got to go express between Marcy and Myrtle. We couldn't move forward too well because Dad was carrying a vacuum-cleaner (we'd just bought it at Macy's) and the train was tres sardine. We were back in the fourth car, #1708. When we got to Eastern Pkway, we all trooped up to the front to examine the car with the flourescent lights as opposed to bulbs. Dad wasn't sure what to make of it. The seats were fiberglas.
Everything looked R10 inside, for sure. I always pay her a visit whenever I go to the Museum. She looks very smart in her restored green-pinstripe rattan seats and slate blue interior paint.
Wayne
Someone at the Transit Museum said 1575 was better suited as the first car of a train, instead of being in the middle. Or it might have been the other way around. Most of the photos I've seen of 1575 depict it as the first car. One photo in Gotham Turnstiles shows it in the middle of a D train. New York Subway Cars has a photo of it heading an E train.
I'll say this much: poor old 1575 doesn't fit the "if-it-looks-like-a-duck" saying. It may have looked like an R-10, but it didn't sound like one.
I also stop by and look at it whenever I'm at the museum - when I'm not admiring R-1 #100.
The R10 was dumb luck , Research and testing is the foundation of intelligent innovation. Any Design engineer in the corporate sector had better not trust to dumb luck. His JOB and those of MANY OTHERS is on the line. The TA will just buy someone else's cars if a vendor hands them a "dog", The designer who doesn't take shortcuts with the difficult process of design will bring the rewards of good new technology to all the stakeholders in a new car order including themselves CONSERVATISM, NOT REACTION (ism) is the consensus of the people on subtalk. They want the cool water and pleasent shade of innovations that function as promised rather than the MIRAGE of unproven features that fail.
There was one aspect on the R-10s which was gravely overlooked: lack of soundproofing. I don't think there was so much as a stitch of insulation on those cars. Even so, they weren't that bad during their heyday. It was only towards the end that some of them became painfully loud.
There was precious little about the R-10 that was untested. SMEE braking is no more than a variant of a locomotive's independent brake. Nothing new there. Dynamic brakes were in use for many years by the time the R-10 was delivered. Propulsion changes amounted to simple changes in wiring configuration. And the Buckeye truck was something GSI had been selling to the railroads for coaches for years.
Motor generator? Industrail standard. New compressor? Yes, a WABCO design that had seen use for several years by 1948.
Doors, same. Heat, no difference. Lights? Not that new.
Please, don't lump the systems fine advance in technology with that dismal failure called R-44.
These new R-142 cars come from a manufacturer with a poor quality record(like St.Louis car) and use a lot of unnneccesary equipment. Do we really need automated announcements? Like we needed an alarm when the cord was pulled on an R-46.
About the only thing those cars got going for them is the AC traction equipment. And that's old technology. It's been in use in Europe for over a decade. My predictions are seldom wrong, and I see a poor future for the first year or so for these cars.
I noticed the linked R-68's from WE-Amrail have newly installed WABCO brake valves, in place of the old NYAB ones. Did they decide the WABCO ones are more reliable? Or just cheaper to maintain? I assume these came out of the blind ends of the R-68a's.
Another thing, why not remove the valves from the non-operating ends, like the a's? The NYAB ones are still there, only capped.
A nice touch is the replacement of brand new motorman's indication light covers. These have the green lens on them, so the air gauge lights up green. The old ones did too, but many were cracked over the years.
Erik
As Richard M. Nixon was fond of saying, "I'm glad you asked that question!"
From the inception of the R-68 12 year overhaul, I was insistant that the NYAB brake valve had to go. The reason is very simple. The Wabco Brake valve is far more reliable. Not so much the valve itself but specifically the electric self lapper on the WABCO unit is far more reliable. With the support of Senior management in Car Equipment it was decided that the extra cost involved would be worth it. Incidently the WABCO Brake Valves used in the R-68 program are the ones that were removed from the R-62s during the linking program.
NOTE: The following is a lot of technical stuff which is really boring. Read further at your own risk
The WABCO ESL uses the pendulum contacts with a capacitor for supression. The NYAB brake valve uses two Licon Micro-switches with a more sophisticated suppression board. Unfortunately even with the added suppression, the transients from the A & R magnets easily excede 450 Volts on a 10-car train. This is significant since the source is 37.5 volts. Well the extremely large transients, even with the suppression, cause arcing within the micro-switch. Arcing in the air produces ozone. Ozone causes the deterioration of plastic to accellerate. Hence, the NYAB Elec. Self Lapper is extremely prone to failure.
Boring Technical Stuff ends here
As to why the unused ones are not being removed, that's an easy one. Why bother. It's not like anyone will ever want to use them. Besides that's a lot of money to do the removals, plumming, and the storage. It's just cheaper to leave-em.
Incidently, The R-32 Phase II and R-46 are plagued with the same problem. The R-46 is particularly problematic since we just can't replace the brake valve (It's part of the master controller assembly, as you know). I have designed a an intermediate Solid State circuit to interface with the R-46 brake system and master controller. I hope to have the prototype ready for testing by Labor Day, with engineering dept. approval, of course.
450 Volts kickback? Why not just put a backwards
diode across each Apply or Release magnet valve coil?
What a waste of money. If the P-wire setup on M-1s with their huge potentiometers mounted in the controllers is good enough for them why didn't the Ta modify the original consoles? Didn't they see this coming as the R-26s with the NYAB valves displayed these problems after their mid '80s overhauls then why did the TA buy these valves for the R-46 and R-32s?
When I was in CEE, I asked the engineer in charge of the R46
overhaul why they were wasting all that time with the cineston
style controllers. He presented some justification based on
the number of moving parts and reliability thereof. I liked
the old slide-style controller much better, but its fatal flaw
seemed to be the poor deadman safety....my memory is a little
shaky here but wasn't there an accident once where the m/m
had a heart attack on the relay at 179 and slumped over forcing
the controller into the full power position? Now, the general
rule with T-handle controls is: power back, brake forward.
As for P-wire....well....
I was told by a motor instructor (now deceased) that the P Wire concept was a failure simply because of poor maintance. The TA didn't take care of the batteries then as well as they do now. A slight dip in the battery voltage made P Wire the first battery related feature to fail. How many times we would have to sectionalize the train, and when we would get back to the yard to normalize the train, the batteries would replenish themselves and there would be no defect found.
The 'P'wire concept is a great one. It failed on the R-44/R-46 for two reasons:
First: Maintenance of the batteries was an issue. It was very sloppy but keep it in context. The NYCT was coming out of an era of R-9s and of deferred maintenance where overlooking things like batteries was quite common. The significance of weak batteries as related to P-Wire failures was never really generally understood bu some of the poorly trained mechanics of the 70s.
Second: The engineering of the R-44/R-46 was poor. The chief cause of the P-Wire failures were the electric portions. They were munted on the sides of the coupler as opposed tot he generally accepted under-slung type. In addition, the OB coupler had problems with 'hook pin bushing' wear. When this occurred the hooks would become loose and on curves, the outer E/P pins would open, breaking the P-wire loop. When we created redundant P-wire loops, around 1986, virtually all P-Wire failures disappeared.
In the last 3-4 years, I have been on 2 LIRR trains that have lost P-Wire. When I hear the crew talking about 'looping the P-wire' I still have a chuckle.
That was the accident in which cars #1054 and 941 were destroyed!
I Ride the broadway line alot and some times wonder why they cut express service on the line I can't remember when Bway had a Express. I remember reading a 1991 map and service useing the bridge but I was 10 at the time. I think Maybe the (N) train can run Express on the Line! .........Maybe when the Manhattan bridge opens to the broadway line there will once more be express sevice?!
What do you guys think? -----Rob Gales
There is no Broadway Express Service until the South Side of the Manhattan Bridge reopens. Then they will close the North Side and there will be no Express Service on 6th Ave >G<.
Lou
Didnt they do the northside of the bridge in 1985-86?
They is no way the 6ave line can use the southside from Grand Street?
Rob Gales
The Bronx
Didnt they do the northside of the bridge in 1985-86?
This was short term work only, and I don't think it was related to the current project.
There is no way the 6ave line can use the southside from Grand Street?
Nope.
--Mark
Not quite true since the connection at W. 4th could still feed passengers into an express service on 6th Av. The northward trains still have somewhere to go.
The problem on Broadway is that expresses and locals would have to share the same trackage south of Canal and north of 57th. The express service would only mess up the headway beyond those stations. On Broadway the express gains only 3 minutes on the local. Since the normal headway is 5 minutes, the N would reach 57th 2 minutes after the R and then there would be no train for 8 minutes. Its just not worth it to run an express without the bridge.
With the bridge open, the N now makes up about 12 minutes on the R from Dekalb and another 3 from 59th for a total of 15. In addition they don't share any track south of 57th in Manhattan. The Q shares track with the N north of Dekalb but not with the R at all.
Now - can anyone tell me how many times I have explained this?
Eleventy-four.
-Hank :)
And just when is the south side of the Manhattan Bridge going to open?
The last time I was in New York was in 1991 and I got the bummer of news that the Sea Beach (Broadway Express in Manhattan) didn't cross the bridge and took a circuitious route that took forever and forever
through the bowels of lower Manhattan. I'm told the bridge is still not open to the Sea Beach. The bridge crossing was also scenic, and it beats the boredom of one local stop after another until we almost see daylight in Brooklyn. Does anyone have an answer as to why people haven't gotten off the dime and made the repairs to turn the Sea Beach once again into an express. I'm getting a lot of feedback about how
the line is torn up even in Brooklyn and it's steaming me up.
The sea beach Line Needs a Express stop or two put in!
And I never rode the N train over the Brigde I think I did once but I was to young to Remember!
Ace: How old are you? I've been to New York twice since I moved to
California in 1954-----1974 and 1991. In '74 the Sea Beach crossed the Manhattan Bridge. In 1991 it didn't and it was partly rotten ride until we came out of the tunnel after the 59th Street stop.
Fred Peritore
Arcadia, California.
ps. I will be in New York this summer and hope the trains that go over the bridge still do.
SORRY TO say Ace just turned 18 years old. I bearly Remember the R30 units I never rode a R10 and
looking out the front of the Trains(A sport for me) is becoming a thing of the past. So I hold on to my Beloved Redbirds and to soon see them also become a thing of the past.And new R142 units with real time signs. ( I Love Playing with the Roll sign! Ever saw a (9) redbird?)
I missed a golden age of subway history...... So as I look at pics of trains bearing Sign like KK,AA or even QB I must say I envy those who have Visions of R10 and R17's in the back of there minds!
One day I will bore my Kids with story of the Old R26 and R33's Or even R142! {Ha}
Newyork Has change alot since 1991..........
- The young Ace Gales
You, like me, probably DID ride an R10, if you've lived in NY most of your life and used the subway at all. You probably just don't remember it. Before I turned 14, they were all 'trains' to me; I only knew 'short cars', 'long cars', and 'IRT cars'
-Hank
Hank AT 14 I knew that R68 were 75 ft and R33 were 51ft!
Its just that before I was just to young to do RailRuns !
I guarantee you would have loved the R-10s, especially when they ruled the roost on the A line. In terms of sheer speed, they had no equal. On the express dash up CPW, they would be at full speed by the time they reached 81st St., and you'd get the feeling that nothing could stop them. Sad to say, the R-68s on the D make that same run about as exciting as watching paint dry.
As a 27 yo guy, I can remember the R16's during their last years (1984-87) on the J and M lines (but also rode them on the RR, LL, and B lines). I also rode R10's, even some before they were painted green. Those were the dirtiest and noisest trains I ever rode and am glad they were put out to pasture. I also remember the R17's and R 21/22's at the very end of their lives in 1986/87 on the #3 before being replaced with R62's. And although I was too young to be sure, I have a few memories of R1/R9 cars on the old Jamaica Ave. el back in the mid-70's. I distinctly remember them because they had open ceiling fans and were lit with incandescent light bulbs. Most likely they were either R9's or R7's during their last days of service. And I did ride a Low-V IRT car back in 1994 when they ran it on the TS shuttle for the 90th anniversary of the IRT opening.
I'd would've loved to ride some of the older cars like the BMT B(standards), D(triplex) and Q(wooden el) cars but unfortunatly they were retired before I was born.
Lucky you! I missed that 90th anniversary run by the Lo-Vs.
I remember virtually all of the equipment you mentioned. The only ones I never rode on were the Triplexes and the Qs, although I do remember seeing the Qs on the Myrtle Ave. el. We were finishing up our vacation in 1965 in New York, and left for home on the very same day the Triplexes made their final runs. Although we rode on the BMT while we were there, I didn't see them.
I rode the BMT standards on the Canarsie line during their final years, and remember when the R-7s and R-9s began appearing over there. Of course, I fondly remember the R-1/9s on the IND, but the R-10s will always be near and dear to me. I rode many, many A trains of those cars, and have fond memories of rocketing along CPW on them. While there's no denying that the R-10s were painfully noisy toward the end, and had a reputation for being noisy in general, they weren't all that bad during their heyday. My favorite paint scheme on them was the white and teal blue combination with the thin stripe at the belt rail.
If anything, the R-16s were the ones which were mercifully put out of their misery.
The best part about the R-1/9s was the glorious cacaphony of moans, groans, grunts, hisses, snarls, growls, and wails they would emit. And if the first car was an R-1 or R-4 without headlights, you were in for a real treat - a tunnel illuminated only by the tunnel lights. They made their last appearance on the Jamaica line on March 31, 1977.
Actually I liked the R-16's. They had foward facing window seats, the only cars that I can remember like that running on the J line when I was a kid. But I hated those circular porthole windows on the front doors. They always prevented me from seeing out the front of a train without having to stand on my toes.
I rode the R-16s a grand total of two times, once on a #15 (today's J) over the Williamsburg Bridge on Sept. 23, 1967; the other time on an M along Nassau St. in October of 1986. Neither one broke down, so I can't say I've had any bad experiences with them. There was an article in the NY Times from December of 1986 which chronicled the final months in the troubled life of #6321. It was titled, "Requiem for a Subway Car, Age 31".
I was at the 90 anniversary. That was some day. I had put in and got that day off. I also let my son miss school. I park my car at 28 Street and went to the Transit Museum. Then on my way Times Square I was waiting for a Uptown No.2 when the R110A arrived so I rode it all the way up. Then Rode that low V. I was there to 7PM. A friend of mind was operating the Times Square end. Then I took a No.1 train to 168 Street to travel the original line. Then took a Downtown No.1 to 96 to ride a Redbird to Times Sqaure. The Took a Downtown No.6 which was a R 29 to Brooklyn Bridge around the loop and got off at 28 Street.
Dave, I rode the Lo-V on the shuttle during the "press availability." I covered it for WCBS, and even had a 45 second piece make the CBS network. As I recollect I signed off with, "Todd Glickman, for CBS News, underneath New York!"
Has anyone heard anything about any plans, similar or otherwise, for celebration of the 95th anniversary?
None that I know of, but I will be in the city on Oct. 27. If nothing else, I'll retrace the original route, hopefully on the Redbirds, except for the City Hall loop.
Now, Oct, 27, 2004 is another story. That day falls on Wednesday, as it does this year, and I can guarantee that I will be on hand then, one way or another.
Steve and Barry and all the rest. Now I know why I am so attracted to the Broadway Express. The anniversary falls on October 27. That also happens to be my birthday. Until now I never knew that the Broadway Express' anniversary was on that date, but as a kid I was so attracted and entranced by the Sea Beach (as it is still known in Brooklyn) that
there must have been something that drew me to it----to the utter rejection of all the other subway trains, except the Brighton Beach that took me to Ebbets Field to see my beloved Dodgers. Strange as it may seem, even though the Dodgers and I are both in California now, I
am now a Dodger hater. Can't stand them. I'm a Mets fan and that is one of the two reasons I'm coming to New York in August. The second reason is to ride the subways----What else? Thanks again/
The Sea Beach line itself opened for subway service on June 22, 1915, as did the 4th Ave. line. Trains intially terminated at Chambers St. The BMT Broadway line was opened piecemeal during the teens. The line-by-line section on this website has additional details.
October 27, 1904 was Day One on the original IRT Contract One line.
I was there, too, with my nose pressed to the glass at the front, then the back, then the front, then the back, then .....
I must have ridden the shuttle a dozen times in each direction!
--Mark
Hey Steve B and all,
I too, missed the Qs, though like you I remember seeing them as we came off the Manhattan Bridge in our car, passing under the el at night and wondering what kind of weird line in Brooklyn ran 3 car trains. (remember I was born in 1956, so when I was in the car those times, I was only about 8-10 years old)
Lucky I made enough trips on the ABs, Ds, and R9s when they ran on the Southern Div. Can't ever remember as a child riding on the Eastern Div.
Like I say over and over: While I still get a thrill riding the subways, once the bull and pinion gear cars left and the SMEEs took over, a little ( I admit alot!) of the excitement went out with them.
Oh well, I guess if you had asked really old timers, they would have told you that once the gate cars and trollys left they lost some of their enthusiasm. Everything in perpspective I guess.
Mike H
The spot where I used to see the Qs was at Myrtle Ave. and Broadway when looking through the railfan window of a QJ train.
Actually, SMEE cars have bull and pinion gears, too, only they're helical cut instead of spur cut, and are much quieter as a result.
Chris...Right you are on the D-Triplex cars but nyet on the B's. The B's were slower, or seemed to be, and most were locals like the 4th Avenue, or the Brighton local. The D cars were the express lines like the Sea Beach, the old #4 train, and the Brighton, the old #1. They seemed to get you where you were going faster and it was a smoother ride.
Ace: How old are you? I've been to New York twice since I moved to
California in 1954-----1974 and 1991. In '74 the Sea Beach crossed the Manhattan Bridge. In 1991 it didn't and it was a partly rotten ride until we came out of the tunnel after the 59th Street stop.
Fred Peritore
Arcadia, California.
ps. I will be in New York this summer and hope the trains that go over the bridge still do.
I would send R-train service to C I as the Sea Beach Local. N-Train service would terminate at Kings Highway(making K-Highway, & N- Utrecht my express stops running express.M- Train service would go to 95th street.This would be post bridge work.Whacha think?
Stillwell: You're thinking and that's good, but to an old warhorse who equated the Sea Beach will my ultimate destination--Coney Island-- that's pure heresy. The Sea Beach without Coney Island is like a hot dog without the fixings. It's bad enough that the Sea Beach doesn't go over the Manhattan Bridge anymore and it's not the #4 train of my young days in New York, but not to Coney Island? Keep thinking Stillwell but don't come up with ideas that put me in a stew, pun intended. By the way, do you know if the Sea Beach will ever be run over the Manhattan Bridge again?
I can't remember who said it but please for the next time explain the situation to him about the Manhattan Bridge and the Broadway line.
Also here is a thought:
1)Broadway Express Shuttle: it runs between 14 St - 57 St, Manhattan weekdays only.
or
2) V Train: 14 St - Ditmars Blvd, Astoria,Qns via Broadway and Astoria Express (Astoria line - Peak rush hours only) Weekdays
Nights: 21 St, Queensbridge - 14 St via Broadway local
What do you think ?????
V is a 6th Avenue sign currently.
Try using W Whitehall to Astoria, this way you don't have to order new signs with yellow V's.
Wayne
This is what I think the Q and the N will run the Bridge again with the Q Runing from 179 st Jamaica to Brighton Beach Via the Broadway line ! When this new link from the 63 st tunnle to Queens Blvd line opens the Q will run Express from 179 to The Beach Via Queens Exp and the 63st Tunnel! I think there
Will also be a 6 ave Q also but at Rush hour!!!!
Look for this in the next two years!!
Rob Gales
I don't thing the Queens Blvd. express could handle an extra line during rush hours. The Q will probably be extended to Forest hills when the connection opens in 2001. When both tracks of the Manhattan Bride are open I think the Q will go back to B'way, terminating at 57th st and a new line (V?) running from Forest Hills to Church Ave on the F, via 63rd st willbe introduced. This will allow the TA to finally introduce express service on the Culver/IND line. I dont think you'll see Broadway BMT trains running on 63rd st. until the 2nd Ave. line is built (hopefully within my lifetime! lol).
I don't thing the Queens Blvd. express could handle
an extra line during rush hours. The Q will
probably be extended to Forest hills when the
connection opens in 2001. When both tracks of the
Manhattan Bride are open I think the Q will go back
to B'way, terminating at 57th st and a new line (V?)
running from Forest Hills to Church Ave on the F,
via 63rd st willbe introduced. This will allow the
TA to finally introduce express service on the
Culver/IND line. I dont think you'll see Broadway
BMT trains running on 63rd st. until the 2nd Ave.
line is built (hopefully within my lifetime! lol).
That first N train I rode on in 1965 did indeed go over the bridge. I remember it well. This was before the Chrystie St. connection opened; Broadway trains were still using the north side tracks. Those gleaming new R-32s sure made it look easy.
And just when is the south side of the Manhattan Bridge going to open?
It's probably safe to say that the south side will open up in the next millenium :)
--Mark
So dose that mean the the Northside will close?
Yes, the north side will close for similar construction as the south side.
--Mark
Don't forget that Broadway was the main line of the BMT--so busy that the express stations had different stopping points for the expresses so that people could spread out all along the platform at the places where the doors on their express would open.
The Broadway express tracks were home to three BMT routes and one way of doing further damage to the BMT was to eliminate all the expresses. Instead of five services on Broadway (four at night and on Sunday), there are now only two, with only one late at night. And instead of 8 stops from 59th Street in Brooklyn to 57th Street in Manhattan (24 hours a day, 7 days a week in 1955 on the Sea Beach), there are now 26 stops under the TA's carefully planned improvements in old BMT service. And the express tracks on Fourth Avenue from 59th to 36th are turned into storage yards--what happened to the yards at 36th Street?
And I for one don't care if DeKalb to 14th Street is only 15 minutes longer (or whateverthe figure is) through the Tunnel--sliding back and forth (if you get a seat) with all the stopping and starting is something the people who make these decisions don't experience in their limousines.
The elimination of one express track in the Sea Beach cut is the most recent retroactive slap at the old BMT. Next will come bus service south of DeKalb except in rush hours (rationalized because of the severe drop in ridership because of the elimination of express service) and finally just paving the Sea Beach cut and the Broadway express tracks for bus operation.
If we still had the Board of Transportation, we would have had the Second Avenue Subway celebrating its 40th anniversary a year or two ago. Let's take the system back from the TA and give it back to the people of the City--they built it and they own it, not the MTA.
Ed Alfonsin, New Yorker-in-Exile
Potsdam NY
Since you brought up the topic then we should have a debate about this. I don't know oo much about the Board of Transportation and how it run but the people here at Subtalk can answer that for me. More importantly people of subtalk, what do you think is much better the Boar d of Transprotation or the MTA and who would be more successful today? And Why?
Neither. The BMT management would have been more successful. This was considered, but was not to the City's taste.
The Transit Authority (a city-state agency) wsa specifically formed to remove the system, and especially the fare, from City politics. As is typical in such cases, the fare (15c from 1953) became even more entrenched. The system was virtually cannibalized under the TA to preserve that fare.
what happened to the yards at 36th Street?
The 36th St yard is an MOW yard. Has been for a number of years.
--Mark
Ed: I just caught your blurbe on the Sea Beach cut possibly being paved over for bus service. If I read that right does that mean the
Sea Beach in Brooklyn is going to disappear? That would make me furious. Please respond to what you know about this. I find this very alarming. And what morons are proposing this?
He's theorizing, based on the decline of service in the former BMT system. it's one of those 'tounge planted firmly in cheek' posts.
-Hank
Don't worry, he was talking tongue-in-cheek. That will never happen! The TA/DOT has rebuilt the overpasses, while the TA has done track modifications between 59th St. & 8th Ave. stations. Additionally, the line has recently been resignaled. I will say this however: that line WAS the pride of the southern division. 24/7 express service between 57/7 and Coney Island via bridge. Seniority line! It was tough for a junior man to work it. It started going downhill when they combined it with the old EE and sent it out to Continental Ave. The ride from 57/7 to Continental was endless. It is a little shorter now that it goes to Astoria, but being local all the way + via tunnel has made it a sorry route. Add in those R68's, well I don't like working the line as when I was a rookie!
Thanks to Bill and Hank for responding to Fred Peritore's concern about my Sea Beach speculation. I was in Toronto over the weekend riding CLRVs and ALRVs and all day Sunday on a chareter using one of the two PCC cars to survive Gunn.
While sort of tongue-in-cheek, one really has to wonder what the long-term plans are for the Sea Beach. When it becomes more important to use the Fourth Avenue express tracks to store trains instead of running expresses, there's something wrong. When a major route to Coney Island is shut down for the Memorial Day Weekend, the traditional opening of the beaches, there is something wrong. When there is no express service to Coney Island for Memorial Day, there is something wrong. It's like closing the Concourse Line when the Yankees are playing or having no Flushing service when the Mets are at Shea Stadium.
If, as seems to be the ultimate plan, a few expresses will operate only in rush hours, the do what Washington does and charge higher fares in rush hours and let the people who have to endure all the stops and starts as everything runs local or backwards pay lower fares.
The really unfortunate thing is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy--the more service gets cut, the fewer people will ride, and the fewer who ride, the more the service gets cut. There have been proposals in recent (and not-so-recent) years to run bus service overnight instead of trains. When I was living in Brooklyn and going to college in The Bronx in the early 1960s and we got "improved" service on Fourth Avenue at night and on the weekends, I gave up taking the subway to use the college library on Sundays because the trip could take upwards of an hour and forty-five minutes each way and I could drive it in 40 to 45 minutes.
The constant closures may be lots of fun for "rare trackage" fans, but that doesn't encourage riders either. Why does everything have to be shut down to change light bulbs? The contractors who built the express tracks on the 2nd, 3rd, and 9th Avenue els under the Dual Contracts 85 years added those tracks without any interruption of service.
Is the Sea Beach likely to be paved over? Probably not--there are enough streets close enough for the replacement bus service (that's more sarcastic than tongue-in-cheek).
I still think the City was far better under direct City operation of the transit system--as I've said before, the only positive thing the TA ever did was to reduce overnight headways on the BMT from 30 minutes to 20, but then they cut the number of services on places like Broadway and Fourth Avenue so the effect was to increase waiting time, not reduce it.
Hope everyone had a good Memorial Day weekend.
Ed Alfonsin
Potdam NY
Speaking of having no Flushing line service when the Mets are at Shea Stadium, I remember going to a night game last season and by time the game was over, the #7 trains to Manhattan were only going as far as Queensboro Plaza due to night track work. Lots of inconvenience to many Met fans. As an old-time subway user, I am amazed at the number of lines that are frequently closed due to track work, etc., nowadays. I recollect that 20-30 years ago the TA scheduled such work in a way that it was much rarer for substantial lines to be closed for service at all. I'm not sure whether it's because much more and involved work is being done today compared with years ago, or because the rider has become less important to today's TA management. I know that there's a delicate balance that needs to be struck, but I'm not sure the TA is doing the best job of it.
20-30 years ago, they were only doing maintainence after something failed. Now, they do preventive maintainance.
-Hank
It's the legacy of the neglectful 1960's and 70's. Only now is the system recovering, and it is wisely doing preventative maintainance so as to not have to repeat this massive amount of rehab work. IIRC, before the first MTA "Capital Program" was begun 16 years ago almost every single subway car was covered in graffitti and there were hundreds of "red tagged" lengths of track where speed limits had to be implemented because the track was in such poor condition.
The entire system was on the verge of collapse in the early 80s. It got so bad that no one was sure if a train would start up again after stopping at a station.
Maybe it's just as well that I missed that entire period when things hit rock bottom.
To Ed, Sid & Bill.....Thanks for the messages concerning the Sea Beach. It made me furious to hear that there was a consideration
of tearing up the line. Whether tongue-in-cheek or not, the transit authority has done enough to get many residential New Yorkers angry.
To those who live outside of New York (I'm from California), we find ourselves unable to protest at all. Maybe we need a Sea Beach club
because there seems to be many more people than I who have a strong emotional attachment to the line. Maybe someone could prevail upon Mayor Giuliani as a Brooklynite to get involved. Too many things have changed. The Dodgers left Brooklyn (which I never accepted even as a
Californian), but some things should be sacred. Brooklyn must savor
& nuture the Brooklyn Bridge & the Sea Beach must clear to Coney Island----and someday over the Manhattan Bridge itself.
I was thinking that the (7) Train could go to the Bronx and I made a track map E-mail me for it!
Rob Gales
According to 1997 FTA statistics, 20 percent of the city's subway cars are held as spares during a typical rush hour. That seems like a lot. On some lines (ie. the Lex, the Queens) track capacity limits the ability to provide service but on others (the F express) its the lack of cars. Are 20 percent spares really needed to do maintenance? What is typical in the transit industry? In the airline industry?
In the transit industry a monthly inspection program requires a certain number of cars to be out of service for inspection or heavy inspection on any given day. In addition there is a need for relay trains to cover incidents other than those few and far between road failures. For example a misguided child might throw a brick through a window, or some poor soul might upchuck his liquid lunch inside a car. In either case the car, therefore the train, has to come out of service for repair or clean-up, and there has to be another train ready to take its place.
Wheel trueing, scheduled maintenance, cars laid up awaiting parts, and trains turned in simply because the t/o doesn't like the feel of how it's operating, are other reasons why trains are not all available for service.
Boston's Blue Line operates with a 70 car fleet. At least one four car train a day is laid up for scheduled maintenance and another for inspection! That leaves 62 cars, 15 4 car sets and a deuce. If 13 trains are required for service, there's not much left in case something breaks down!
Your point is a good one. 20% spare is pretty standard and it's not just a car here or there but full train sets that are added and taken out of service.
Having a spare factor of 20% would really be a luxury at any NYCT maintenance shop. Speaking for my own fleet, that number is highly unrealistic. Every day we put out 111 trains (26 E, 46 F, 27 R and 12 G). To do that we need approximately 916 cars of our 1,042 car fleet. That's a 12% spare factor. Even 12% is high but with 4-car units, the spare factor must be somewhat higher.
Do you have a contingency fleet of cars that are mothballed but could be returned to service in an energy crunch or other crisis?
Unfortunately, the shortsighted idiots who run the TA don't.
But,the flipside of the farecard, is that maintainence is a lot better today, than 15 or even 10 years ago.
I remember when you couldn't walk through the 207th Street overhaul shop. It was that crowded. So many cars for heavy repair. Today it's a ghost town. Instead of sitting idle for repairs, those cars are now doing what they were meant to do. Carry people.
It's one of the big reasons that the current fleet is down from around 6200 to 5800 cars. That and the 75' cars do the work of more 60' ones.
75 foot cars are great from a maintenance standpoint. But they also need to be comparable in performance to the 60' models.
They really aren't that far off, in terms of stopping or INITIAL acceleration. It's only the top end that's really noticible.
My own opinion is that since there are three points of feild shunting available, why not only lock out the last two or one? This way the top end could be at least a little higher?
But that costs money, so I'd better stop dreaming.
The reason is very simple. The signals were checked on all lines and a 'worst case scenerio' was developed for a train relying solely on the signal system to stop it in an emergency. Once that was determined, all trains were slowed to meet that 'worst case' criteria. That's why field shunting was completely removed.
In other words the TA is deliberately degrading the performance of its roling stock because it has been negligent in failing to upgrade its signals to match the capabilities of the trains. When does the TA plan to correct the deficiencies in its signal system?
In 20-30 years. Seriously.
Simply put, yes. For example, the horsepower of the IRT and 60' BMT/IND cars were increased by 15% during overhaul.
And the braking distances were lengthened too. Well out side the design parameters of the signal system.
But in all fairness, H.P. was increased, but that was only a part of it. Weight was added.
BUT THEY KNEW THIS. These are college educated engineers. How could they think adding weight and H.P. to increase speed, and cutting brake effort would not? Only a fool would think this was an oversight, an honest mistake. Culpability rests with the engineers who redesigned the equipment, and the managers who told them to do so.
When the first overhauled or new cars came back, they were track tested. I was there for the R-40 acceptance tests. Weight is put aboard, to simulate passengers. We used cases of brake shoes, or a stack of unmounted wheels, in each doorway.
The cars almost always took too long to stop. The TA engineers, from NCE, said it was fine. As a lowly tech from a vendor, who was I to argue? But I will never forget.
They knew what they were doing. And I did too.
Yeah, I was in NCE at the time. Let's just say that
engineers did what they were told to do.
Not because it was negligent in upgrading it's signals. Because it deliberately DOWNGRADED the performance of it's brakes, out side the design parameters of it's signal system.
But please, let's not get into this again.
If you really do, then E-mail me.
Perhaps the 20 percent spare factor the FTA reported for 1997 was a result of service cuts? I assume there were no peak hour service cuts on the Queens line, but the number of trains on the B, D, Q, N, R, A and C did go down after 1995, and has mostly stayed down.
On the bus side the "National Mean Spare Ratio" is 23 %
The "privates" here have about 12 %, and as Steve said that number givse the Transportation dept. problems "Making Service" if you have a few coaches Out-of-servuce due to an accident, blown engine, etc.
The TWU loves it, because you have to auth. OT to turn those fewer buses around quicker.
Mr t__:^)
Just a thought here. Two percent of the B division fleet is, what, 74 cars? That's 8 trains. So going from 20 to 18 percent overall gets you eight more trains, and Steve's shop is at 12 percent right now. That's enough to add F express in Brooklyn along the lines we discussed earlier -- 8 trains per hour from Stillwell express past Church, 8 trains per hour (down from 12) local from Church, and 6 Gs per hour all the way to Church.
Your concept of a spare factor may be throwing you off. The fact is that although my spare factor is 126 cars, I don't have 126 spare cars. To start, I have 24 cars for inspection. I have Cars out of service for repair. I have OK mates which can't be seperated. I have cars out of service awaiting material. I also have cars in the overhaul shop for heavy repairs. By the time I get done, if I'm lucky, I have 1 or 2 spare trains. Last night for eample, I was at 0 spares.
So are the link bars worth it when you lose three cars to save one? Not to mention I liked working with hostlers.
I don't particularly like permanent or semi-permanent
train sets. On the other hand, the strategy makes good
R-R sense if MDBFs are high enough and spare ratios are high
enough that you can afford it without affecting service.
Larry Littlefield noted that a slight %-wise increase in
available cars could mean more service during the rush hour.
Unfortunately, even if you have the cars, you have no rail
to put them on, since the < FLAMEBAIT > current combination
of low running speed, long brakes and antiquated signals
< /FLAMEBAIT > has diminished the trains-per-hour-per-track
numbers quite a bit from, say, 1980. Ironically, ridership
is at a 30 year high. Time for a big fare increase to
get those numbers back in balance :(
[I don't particularly like permanent or semi-permanent
train sets. On the other hand, the strategy makes good
R-R sense if MDBFs are high enough and spare ratios are high
enough that you can afford it without affecting service.]
I pushed this point with our guide at the Coney Island Shop Tour this past Saturday. On the surface all those GOOD cars in the barn because of one bad one in the set doesn't seem to make any since.
His reply goes right to MDBF, i.e. the connecting bar elimates a number of parts that fail, and the TA has been removing a number of other redundant parts that fail in train sets. This combined with PMs done regularly reduces the in-service failures ... or at least that's what he said.
Mr t__:^)
from what i've been told the most troublesome part of a train component is the coupler. Electric portion pins get dirty or do not connect properly causing a myriad of trainline problems. As for mechanical portion of the coupler seals on tappet valves unseat causing air leaks(brake pipe rupture). Supposedly TA's scheduled maintenance system program is looking up with increased MDBF. Link barred (married) units reduce the use of H2C couplers eliminatiing one element in a subway car failure not to mention less weight to carry and fewer couplers to maintain(saves money) Fewer air brake compressors and converters/batteries per trainset (less weight and maintenance). I do find that linked barred R62a's operate differently from single car units but hey they're still some spunky units to operate!
lets face it having 5 car 4 car or what ever link barred units there will be cars out of service that need not be but hey the bean counters have that all down to some kind of science.
I have the right concept of spares -- its trains not in peak hour service for whatever reason (repairs, maintenance and inspections that can't be done off peak). What I didn't think about is when you have a mated unit, a problem for one throws the lot out of service.
Yesterday For like the first time in my life I saw R42's on the (N) line What's up with that?
The N line runs alot of diffenet cars Like R32,R40,R42 Now And R68's!!! I was just wondering!!!
RobGales!!
The R-42s have served the N in the past as well. I rode a few R-42 N trains in 1971. If you've seen The French Connection, you may have noticed that the train in the chase sequence consists of R-42s. Although it's operating on the West End line, the cars used in the movie didn't have B signs and were consequently signed up as an N.
I thought due to a General Order, the N trains were operating over the B line!
Yes, it appears that N trains are running on the B at times due to a GO. That was not the case in 1971. As for The French Connection, the producers wanted clean cars, and car washers were out of service because it was wintertime. R-42s 4572 and 4573 were chosen, and it so happened that they didn't have B signs. I don't know if you've seen any photos of the R-42s when they were new, but back then they featured huge letters up front. They were so big (how big were they?) that it was impossible to include every IND and BMT letter code on one roller curtain. Consequently, the R-42s had, I believe, up to three signs each, depending on where they were assigned. Since they were air-conditioned right from the start, they were distributed throughout the now-merged IND and BMT lines instead of being assigned exclusively to one or two routes. 4572 and 4573 were assigned to the N line back then, and carried their N signs during the movie. The N itself can be seen twice in the movie, and then very briefly each time.
The sets of R40/42 signs were as follows:
A, AA, B
CC, D
E, F
EE, GG, N
J, K, L, M, QB
RR (by its lonesome)
All combinations also had the black "S" on the white background. Pretty weak in terms of fleet flexibility, no?
If I'm not mistaken, the R-42s would have been delivered with QJ, KK, and LL signs, since the J and K markings weren't implemented until later, and the LL didn't become the L until the 80s. I rode on QJ and LL trains of those cars back in 1969-70.
YES you are absolutely right. R42s as delivered, in the 4850-4923 range had "QJ"/"QB" or "KK"/"LL"/"M" signs. I think the dividing line was right at 4900 or maybe 4896. 4924-4949 had "E" and "F" signs for some odd reason they didn't mix in with the Eastern Div cars until later on.
The single letters looked to be about 32" high; the double letters were somewhat smaller, maybe around 24". My Dad has #4612's "A"/"AA"/"B" sign, extracted from its battered nose back in the summer of '71 (the fuschia "AA" panel was crumpled and slightly tattered from the impact of the collision, but we salvaged it)
Click the links below for some examples of these signs:
#4913 on the LL
#4921 on the KK
#4896 on the M
Wayne
That's the way I remember the R-42s. In a way, I wish they had kept the original storm and side doors on them, as the large windows blended in very nicely with the car windows. Ditto for the side doors on the slant R-40s. At least they still have their original railfan storm doors.
As I recall, the R-42s were speed demons in their own right. Those two N trains I rode on back in July of 1971 flat out rocketed along 4th Ave. and Broadway. The funny thing was that I wanted to wait for a train of R-32s in each direction, since I saw them running on the N as well. I don't think my mother and sister would have wanted to wait.
That was also the last time I visited Coney Island and walked along the boardwalk. We even paid a visit to the New York Aquarium on that day. Took a QJ one stop from Stillwell Ave. to W. 8th St. to boot.
Yes, my Colorado friend, you are correct! I believe that 4900s and up were Eastern Division mainstays for the longest time. Don't remember which ones were confined to the RR.
IIRC,the RR's R-42's were in the 4800 series. (4800-4849?)
As they were delivered,enough R-42's were alloted to provide a few trains of A/C cars to each line as a demonstration of Mayor Lindsay's promise that all new cars would be A/C equipped.
I believe The N's original allotment consisted of cars 4550-4583.
If I can find the original assignment list I'll post it.
Those car numbers for the N sound right, as that includes 4572-4573 of The French Connection fame. BTW, that movie has been re-released on video. There is a note on the box which states Gene Hackman did his own stunt driving during the chase sequence. Target has them for $6.99, which is a lot less than what I paid for my copy nine years ago. I also paid a small fortune for Pelham 12 years ago.
"RR" was 4808-4869 (4800-4807 were assigned to the "D").
Wayne
Thanks. Still looking for that list. BTW,those photos in your earlier post were great. I almost forgot how good R-42's looked with the blue stripes.
We saw some of those very trains shown in the photos to-day on the N, which was running out to 21st-Queensbridge via 6th Avenue - no they were NOT wearing orange "N" signs in honour of the occasion, just the usual yellow sign with a black "N". It looks like they have culled the high 4800s and most if not all of the 4900s as part of the car swap they made last month.
We also saw the R40M/R42 odd couple #4460-4665 in one of the "N"s.
Wayne
Speaking of 4460/4665, I have a bit of news on them if you haven't heard already. 4461, which was the car Layton Gibson was killed in (Willy B Accident, 6/95), has definitely seen progress over at C.I. I was in C.I. taking a private tour with members of the Shore Line Trolley Museum and found 4461 on top of a set of steel supports. There was one thing peculiar: She now adorns a SLANT NOSE!!??!! The donor nose and part of the sides that was received came from R40 4260. 4260, as you recall crashed into a concrete wall outside of 9th Av in 1994, as a result of a switch defect. The car returning to service will be numbered 4260, with the 4461 designation being put to retirement.
4260 will return provided that she gets the necessary funding to complete repairs and get back on the road. My guess is that 4260's original body has gone off to the scrap yard (at least it will).
4664 may not be too far behind in getting repairs. I spotted two brand new R42 noses sitting on the outside near the fence at Avenue X. It makes me wonder if it's possible to get this car rolling.
-Constantine
Hello Constantine
Maybe THOSE noses are destined for #4427 and #4428, which would turn them from Slant R40 to R40M. Wouldn't THAT be interesting. They might get donor metal for those from #4685, #4726, #4714-5, #4680-1 etc.
As for #4664, unless they can come up with a way to straighten out that hideously bent frame, it's a total loss. We're talking about 17 feet of telescoping damage there. #4461 was lucky - her frame withstood the blow, and damage was limited to "soft" metal and fiberglas parts, along with the anticlimber, very much like what happened to #4612 way back in 1971.
I guess Frankenslant (NOW her secret is out) is also going to be converted from "she" (odd) to "he" (even). Is there a ready mate for this beast? I show no free odd-numbered slants in my list except for #4427, which has end damage from January 8,1996's rear-ender at Bushwick-Aberdeen, and #4259, which has been languishing since her accident of February 9, 1995. #4261 is currently mated to #4258.
P/S Got some good pictures at Jackson Avenue station yesterday, including various Redbirds entering/leaving/in the station.
Won't be developed until June 6; the photo-lab's closed for holiday.
Wayne
-Is there any info on 4428? Why is she out of service? I spotted an R40/42 body outside among the Museum Cars, with no ends. I wonder if this is what's left of 4260?
-I look forward to seeing your photos, which reminds me that I need to try and get some more stuff over to our respected Web Site Host - David P. I have to develop some bus photos from the Transit Museum's Bus Fest 99.
Cheers,
Constantine
Next time you are out there, check the corrugations on the body sides. If wide, then it's what's left of #4664. #4260 would have a massive wound to its side just about three doors back from the "A" end.
I would guess the status of #4428 is the same as that of #4427 - out of service awaiting disposition. I don't know for sure which car got the worst of it in that collision. I'm not even sure which did the hitting and which got hit. Only info I has is one was stuck in Bushwick-Aberdeen with door trouble and the other one slipped on icy rail (a blizzard was going on outside and the tracks on the ramp had iced over) at the portal and slammed into the rear of the first.
The Jackson Avenue pictures are going to be a part of a massive shipment of photos to Dave which will include every station on the line from Jackson to East 180th Street. We just finished up this job yesterday. Another project in the works is the completion of the 8th Avenue/Fulton stations. We did a few more Fulton Locals yesterday and next we'll try and fill in the gaps going up CPW. 81st St. has new tiles now - complete with a color band (dark blue, same as before).
207th Street too.
Wayne
Did they leave the "Museum of Natural History" script intact at 81st St? That station brings back memories of walking toward the museum entrance, with a rumble building to a roar as an A train would thunder past.
YES they did.
Thanks for the Colorado plug. Call me a Notre Dame subway alumnus, being the South Bend native I am. You wouldn't happen to have any original R-42 curtains in your collection, would you? I'm not looking to buy any; I'm just curious.
Yes, Steve-o, I would. I have the E&F version, the EE,GG,N version, and the RR version. Those are the side signs.
Front signs I have are the E&F, CC&D, EE,GG,N, and I might have the Eastern Division, too.
(no e-mail addr.above)
What is the Eastern Div. sign going for?
Do you still have the 1970 R32 mylar front curtain and if not, where can I get one? Please e-mail me.
Christmas may be coming in June this year.
Wayne
I think what you saw wasn't an R42. More likely it was an R40M, which can be tough for some to distinguish from an R42. They look similar except for the corrugation on the side, the "B" end doors, the "A" end storm door windows and of course, the unit numbers.
R40M: 4450 - 4549 (except for 4461)
R42: 4550 - 4949
If your "N" had a 4450-4549 unit number or the corrugations on the side were closely spaced, then it was an R40M.
Wayne
Wayne:
I had an N job this week. There are a few R-42's on there.
They mix in with the R-40m's as ussual. Both M+K and C.I. ones.
Erik
Hey did they supercede the bulletin banning the mix of Phoney Island and MK R-42's. I wonder if the convertor frame bracketing installed by Phoney Island Overhaul Shop is cracking again.
That is (R42) units 4550-4839 (MKCo) and 4840-4949 (CI). Saturday I will be on the lookout for "mixed company" and report any findings.
I also understand the A/C in the CI R42s isn't quite up to snuff. It's going to be 80 Saturday so I'll be looking for overly warm cars too.
Wayne
I have been seeing mixed consists lately and not just the N. I've seen Fat ripples and skinny ripples on the same train and even on the IND 32 and 38 mixed consists. On the 6 I've seen WF and non Wf cars in the same train.
I rode on an A train last fall which had 8 R-32s and two R-38s tacked on at one of the ends. To me, R-32s and R-38s in the same train are no big deal, as they bear a close resemblance. Ditto for R-40Ms and R-42s.
That being said, I still prefer solid trains.
That must have been the odd-ball R32-GE, of which there are only eight fit for revenue service, the other two being cannibalised as parts cars. They are #3594-5; #3880-1; #3892-3; #3936-7, with #3934-5 being the parts cars. These R32 were GOH'd by GE-Buffalo Transit at the same time as the R38. Nice job, with one LITTLE problem = NO A/C! This is because of a problem with the compressor cradles, and to fix it costs too much, so I have been told.
There are numerous R32 on the "A" line nowadays, however, mixed company can still be observed on the "C", with regular MKCO R32's mixing in with the R38s.
Wayne
No, I'm pretty sure they weren't the GE rebuilds. I would have noticed the outlines for the marker lights on the bulkheads. Those GEs don't run together typically, so I hear. I've never seen them in person.
OK, I have one sighting here from April 24: Mixed company on the "A":
3383-3890 (R32 MKCo - odd couple); 3956-7; 4016-7; 3978-9; 4038-9 (all R38). So it apparently does occur. I will be on the lookout for more of these mixed bags on Friday.
Wayne
As much as I've never liked it, you see many mixture/combinations of R32 & R38 cars on the A & C. I'm told, to my delight, that Coney Island Yard is keeping the R40 modifieds and CI rebuilt R42's segregated from each other. The only mixed pair you will see with the R40 modifieds is 4460/4665.
I don't like mixed consists, either, but can live with R-32s and R-38s coupled together. They resemble each other sufficiently from a stylistic standpoint so they don't clash. The R-40Ms and R-42s fall into the same category, as did the R-16s and R-27/30s.
I used to hate seeing R-32s and R-42s coupled together on the D line. I was ready to beg the TA to run those cars in solid trains. Had I seen the R-10s intermixed with anything else - and I understand it was done occasionally - I would have had a stroke.
Not necessarily. They have been mixing R32-MKs and R38s since around the time of the rebuilding of the R44's, which necessitated extra R32's from the "C" train to fill in the rush hour gaps. To take it a step further, I have noticed trains of mixed R32's-MK and GE as well as R32's MK & GE and R38's in the same train on both the A and C trains.
Yes, I saw a mixed "A" train this evening - six R38 and four MKCo R32. I think the GE R32 are on the bench right now due to their lack of A/C. They only come out in cool or cold weather.
Wayne
WHAT M+K and C.I mean?
In 1989-90 the R-42's indeed from 1986 on through 1992 or so, the TA sent out nearly it's entire fleet to several outside contractors. These companies rebuilt the old cars, to like new condition.
M+K is the Morrison Knudson Co. and C.I. stands for the TA's own Coney Island overhaul shops. There were some cars rebuilt by the TA themselves there. It's easy to tell the two apart. Just look for quality of paint job. TA rollers, M+K sprayed. Also the seats at the cab and opposite on the M+K cars are the same as the rest. On C.I. cars the heaters bulge out.
On Coney Island cars they had to be recalled due to convertor bracket failure, likes of which recalled the GE R-30 cars, one of which derailed at Bedford Park after dropping its convertor, also installed by Phoney Island shop.
The grab bars behind and opposite the cabs are different.
MKCo grab bars are similar to R32 (one piece); C.I. grab bars are like the R40 (two piece).
Wayne
The Trains I saw was made up of 4700's ,4900.s Mostly thoses are R42 Right?
YES
The trains this person is speaking of are definatley r-42's, although some of the trains are mixed r-42/r40M, probably assigned recently to the M line. The only logical reason I can come up with for seeing these cars on the N is because the A and E needed extra R32's for increased service during the WB closing. I have noticed a dramatic decline in the frequency of r-32 N trains recently. Anyone here know for sure?
BTW, r42's are also now running on the Q ...
That's the reason.Jamaica had to give up Phase 1 R32s to Pitkin shop. Coney Island gave up some Phase 2 R32s to Jamaica for E line service.As a result,Coney Island received extra R40/42 cars for the M service and N,Q,B, service if needed.
I know this was in an earlier thread, but I can't find it - what is the difference between phase 1 and phase 2 R-32's?
Is that section of the M and the Nassau shuttle ever going to get anything different, like R-32's? (I definitely wish they would run 6 car R-68's there for a real change!) But it just remains a cut off section of the Eastern Div., rather than fitting in with the rest of the southern div. because some C.I. yard people didn't want the slant 40's from the L.
Looks like the Slants have been banished from the "N", at least for weekday service. The "Q" was 100% slants, the "N" had everything BUT.
R32 (at least three consists), R40M, R42 (NYCT GOH), R68 (of course),
and even a stray R68A. The one "M" I saw today (it had been diverted to the "N" line for some reason), was eight R40Ms.
Too bad for the "N" they are missing out on great trains like #4163,
who, in a frantic burst of speed, left #2752 and the rest of his train in the Brighton Line DUST this afternoon. Way to go, Slants!
I saw the rehabbed #4918 today on the "N". You can really see where they made the repair to his nose. He was the third car in the train
n/b at 59th Street about 4:30 or so.
Wayne
I don't know about an R42 sighting---but I did see R2d2 and C3P3 on the N train last Wed. night.
FIRST OF ALL I APOLOGISE IF THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN COVERED IN SUBTALK,I MISSED IT IF IT WAS.
Apart from 8408 which R30s were used by the movie company and what happened to them after the movie was shot?
In this film and Speed (1) it annoys me very much that they have "runaway" ELECTRIC trains that "nobody can stop". I'm sure there is no Police Officer in the world as stupid as those portrayed in the two movies who don't understand the function of electricity.
A while back we were discussing the best subway movie. Money train is my nomination for the WORST [I just saw it for the first time today]
I can't remember the car number, but one of the R-30s was mangled pretty badly during that sequence in which the money train kept bashing into it after its brakes had been bled. You would have thought a BMT standard had done all that.
It was the world's most famous subway car- R-30 #8408.
Appearing in:
Money Train(1995)
Blade(1998)
AND in "Earthquake in New York", its "A" end still stove in.
And one of the "51050" Money Trains playing BMT standard, playfully bashing it in the rear over and over again.
Wayne
You could almost say 51050 was playing Triplex, but since the Triplexes kept to themselves and didn't get into fights (except with each other) the way the BMT standards did, we'll let it go at that.
I looked at the tape very carefully and apart from 8408 I THINK the other cars were 8402 and 8275.
Hate to tell you, but most of the scenes depicted in "Die Hard 3" and "Money Train" with the R30's weren't even done in New York, nor were they done with real R30's!!!
Sony Pictures bought some land north of downtown Los Angeles that was formerly a Southern Pacific yard and built a half-mile long, four-track fake subway there. They also had approximately 15 fake R30's made, and these were actually powered by automotive chassis for use in the filmings.
If you look at the trains in Die Hard 3 and Money Train, you will see that they have an additional front window on the left side. They also have an additional passenger window in the left front and right rear corners; these windows match the motorman's side windows. The fake R30's also had IRT number-route destination signs in them too.
The cars that were wrecked in the movie scenes were the fake cars built out in California. Some scenes were done on NYCTA, but none of the chase or wreck scenes. If you look in one of the chase scenes with the "51050" money car, check the undercarriage out, and you'll see the rubber tires in one or two shots!!
The "51050" used in the Money Train movie was built from an NYCTA R-21 in the Coney Island NYCTA shops, but there were also a pair of fake car 51050's out in California built on automotive chassis.
Many of the cars wrecked in the movie filming scenes were sitting in a railroad scrapping yard in Fontana, California a year ago. Unfortunately, they were far enough from the adjacent roadway so I was not able to photograph them (or else I would have flooded www.nycsubway.org with them!!)
Very good info, Steve!
Also, in the chases scenes you can actually hear the 'diesel growl' as the '51050' Money Train shoots by.
Doug aka BMTman
Gee, they made no effort to dub in actual subway sounds, did they?
In contrast, you can hear the R-1/9s moaning as they accelerate out of 57th, er, Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts. in Nighthawks. I could hear C# below middle C clear as a bell.
All the physical bashing [crashing] of the R30s in "Money Train" was so-so. The stupid part was that they used the '30s as if it were an A-Division train towards the start of the movie.
There was a segment in which a train of R30s was pulling up to a train station with a "4" in the front, as if it were a #4 train. Yeah, right...
It's the same old story: most movie produsers figure the average (and I stress average) moviegoer wouldn't know the difference or wouldn't care. Those of us who are diehard New York subway buffs can spot the inaccuracies a mile away.
That goes for that four-track movie set they used in the movie, too. The only undisguised station was 33rd St. on the Lex, and even then the 4 train was running local. Must have been late at night...
Most viewers of "The Money Train" probably don't realize that some subway scenes were filmed here in Los Angeles. The studio constructed a set on a Southern Pacific (now UP?) yard track in an industrial area just north of downtown off North Spring Street. A plywood "tunnel" about one-half mile long was built over the track. The set included a station platform at its midpoint. The train consisted of two red cars, retired from Flushing line service, as I recall. It was not electrically powered; I believe a diesel yard switcher was used.
I visited the site one Sunday afternoon. It was behind a chain-link fence and heavily guarded. One end of the train was outside the plywood portal, basking in the California sunshine. Other than the wood tunnel, there was little else to see.
I agree that the finished movie was a huge disappointment.
I thought the set could pass for a typical four-track New York subway line to the casual observer. It had I-beams correctly spaced five feet apart, and the station often seen was a typical outside platform local stop. However, the roof was much higher than anything in New York, even more so than the roof of the 4th Ave. line. The cars were definitely R-30s; although they were indeed painted Redbird red, they had four sets of doors per side (IRT cars have three).
Yeah, despite the trashing that "Money Train" gets, I thought it wasn't as bad as some people make it out. From a railfan viewpoint, the movie's premise was totally unrealistic. However, from an asthetic angle the movie did an excellent job at authenticating the look and sounds of the New York subway system. I think it's up there with "Taking of Pelham" in that regard.
And of course I enjoy the teaming of Snipes and Harrelson who have that great screen chemistry. (And not to mention the always 'hot n' steamy Jennifer Lopez!)
One of THE worst subway movies is w/o doubt that lame remake of "Taking of Pelham" that didn't even attempt to be authentic!
Doug aka BMTman
You mean "The Taking of Bloor-Danforth 1-2-3" .....
Yeech! Fooey!!
--Mark
Oh, don't remind me of THAT one! AWFUL STUFF!
Booooo!!! Hisssss!!! Yurrgggghhh! Bhlecccchhh! PTUI!
Wayne
Man, you got that right. I never saw such lousy acting in my entire life. You could tell everyone was just going through the motions; the acting was so wooden. The real question is: why did they even bother remaking Pelham?
Correct me if I am wrong is there a crossover to the N line at both directions, at Queensboro Plz? If that is true, is it possible (like when the N train is not running because of construction or when the #7 last stop is Queensboro also because of construction) that the #7 can run on the Broadway line and terminate at 34 St/ Bway.
Just a thought and a theory of mine even though it may not work but I would love to hear what you subtalkers would say.
They would have to put gap fillers along all the platform to accomodate the narrower R33/R36 cars of the #7 line. The R32/R40/R40M/R46/R68/R68A cars on the "N" and "R" would have issues with these I would think.
Wayne
So it iis possible for a #7 Train to go on the N and R line?
What about a N on the Flushing line, would there be problems?
The crossover is located on the upper level between the outbound Flushing Line track 2(C-1) and the outbound Astoria Line track G-2.
There is no inter-divisional connection between the inbound tracks.
Astoria trains cannot operate on the Flushing Line because of their greater width.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Back when the IRT and BMT shared the lines, the lower level crossover was there, so it could always be put back.
With no other service on the Broadway express tracks we have the possibility of platform extensions maybe down as far as Canal with a crossover there.
Thus we could have a Broadway - Flushing service and a 42nd St. Flushing service.
HOWEVER
The Flushing line probably can't handle an increase in service so half the trains would go each route. And the people at Grand Central would ride inbound to Times Sq. to get a seat! :(
Coney Island Transfers from Corona Yard to Coney Island Shops with R33s on both ends of consist since these cars have diversion valves and four trip cocks.
Question:
Sounds to me like the "N" runs more types of cars than any other line now. Is that the case?
Seems to be as a result of the Willie B work requiring different car assignments ...
--Mark
So in a perfect world a possible train line (maybe a W train or an 8 train) can happen an run via the Broadway and Flushing line but in reality if the cars can only fit thru the respected platforms then I think it was just a thought.
I do have another idea on he way ............
That would be no Good. The No.7 is needed from Times Square to 45 Road. Also the No.7 has lots of transfer Points on 42 Street. Lots of people to connect to the 6 Ave Line at 5 Ave. The No.7 serves a good service as it is now.
My theory was not to put a #7 train but to place an "X" Train (just make up a new train line) that can run via Broadway and Flushing. This X Train can even replace the Flushing Express or help the Flushing line. What do you think?
That sounds good but the problem is with the Car Equipment. If its a IRT type car there will be a large gap from train and Plaform when the train gets on the BMT. If its a BMT type car it woun't fit in the IRT station. If you want it to work you would have to shorten the line. Like Have it start at Queensboro Plaza on the N Line. But it sound like a good Idea but wouldn't work in realty. I there is a modification with your plan. I have the track map up as am writeing. Have the North Terminal Queensboro Plaza. With trains relaying at 39 Ave middle. Ok have the train run Express from 57 Street to Canal Street. Cross over to the Local South of Prince Street. Then make the last stop whitehall Street. That may be the closes thing I can think of. Ofcause it would be a little added service to the N,R.
I just came from D.C. While I was their I rode the WMTA from Pentagon City Mall to Crystal City. I don't really like the fact that to get to different stops, their are different prices, but I guess I'm just used to New Yorks 1.50. Nice, clean stations, although not brighty lit, I like how they have lights down inbetween the tracks. The system was built in thougt of the blind and the death. Ex. Lights that blink along the platform when the train is comming and automated messages of when the doors are opening and closing along with Nys "ding-dong" after the "doors closing" message. I was impressed with the station design (looks like the future, very appealing high station roof), along with esculators going up and down. While on the train, I noticed they wasted no time in accelerating. From what I can tell, they dont use choppers because acceleration is constant until it reaches its "I guess speed limit". While the traction motors are on, the train seems to "hum", and when the train reaches its "limit" you can hear the "hum" turn on and off while the motors maintain the trains speed. Off course electronic bracking (extremly quite). I had to rush to catch the train because I didnt even notice it pulled in and stopped at the station. Apperently, there is no standard car lenght (some where long, others were short, im guessing on which line was more heavily/lightly used, which makes it more economically but more difficalt to guess where the shorter ones will stop.) From what I have seen, a very nice system (I'm not going to get into computer failures... which is both an upside & downside to the system). However nice the WMTA is, to me it still doesnt compare to the NYCMTA.
Question-
The entrance to the stations are equiped with esculators, which are exposed to outside weather, how do the esculators run while its raining/snowing? Are they weatherproof?
Thanks
Thomas
Tom----I thought DC's mass transit was called the Metro????? When I was there, I saw all the trains and buses with a huge "M" on them.
Hey---I could be wrong about the Metro name----after all I thought that the national MAll was an actual shopping center. Didn't see a Sam Goody any where in that mall.
The system is called Metro Rail but the Agency acronm is WMATA
I think it stands For "Washington Metro Area Transit Authority" but that may not be quite right.
It is a nice system but the orange carpet in the cars is not wearing as well as RCA rubber transit flooring does in NYC
WMATA stand for Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority.
On MARTA, Maximum Application of Relentless Turmoil and Antagonism or Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority we have carpets which have gum and alot of wear. Sometimes the carpets smell from mildew and urine in the cab. A rubberized floor with be on the new Breda cars and in time the remainder of the fleet will have the same.
ALL Metro cars (Rohr and Breda) are 75 feet in length and run in two-car married pairs, similar to the LIRR's MU cars.
The zoned-fare system is only in use during peak hours. Otherwise the fare is a flat $1.15. There is also a $5 day pass available, which is only good after 0930 hours, but is good for unlimited entrances/exits.
Did you go to the Crystal Underground (at the top of the first escalator and make a right)? Nice mall.
Check out the Washington DC Metro page and take a station-by-station tour of all five lines.
As for the escalator question - that's a good one. I've been on them in the rain, but not in snow or ice. Washington's pretty far south; snow does occur there but it's not commonplace.
Wayne
Off-peak at $1.15? No, off-peak is also based on distance. Buses have zone fare too.
Metrorail now uses Smart Card Techology on the MetroRail where you can use the card on the MetroRail and parking lots. If you register the card and somehow lose it, you can tell WMATA and they can cancell the card you lost, and transfer the balance on to a new card. I was a trial user under their Go Card. I never have to remove the card out of my wallet as the computer chip can transmit the signal through the wallet or a purse. I just touch the wallet on to the target, and the fare is shown as the gate opens. The down side is that the starting cost is $25.00. Plus you can't use them on the buses.
Okay, I was wrong. REALLY wrong. A few months ago, in a discussion concerning the Cross-Harbor Railroad, I noted how the stock of NY Regional Rail (its parent corporation) was selling for practically nothing, and expressed some concern about its future. Want a laugh? Go to Yahoo, click on Stock Quotes, and check out NYRR. Also look at its stock-price chart for the last year.
And then kick yourself for not having bought NYRR stock a month ago ... I sure have!
Did they change their name to NYRR.com?
New York Regional Rail (NYRR) is the holding company for the Cross Harbor. The web site is nyrr.com.
Don't think about NY&A though. It's privately held by parent corporation Anacostia and Pacific. Which is privately held by two investment bankers,and a lawywer. They absolutely refuse to go public. Smart.
Hi,
Can anyone help me solve a challenge? We are installing an MRI scanner on 149st. in the Bronx directly across the street from Lincoln Hospital. As you propably know, MRI scanners depend on strong magnetic fields to produce those amazing images. However, they are very sensitive to moving ferrous objects such as subway trains. So the question is, where does the #2 and #5 IRT line run at that location? Is it directly under 149st or to the side? How deep is the tunnel? How frequently do trains run between these 2 stops (Grand Concourse and 3rd ave.) Any information you can lend will be greatly appreciated. Thankyou, Danny O'Hara
They also exert strong magnetic fields of their own. Try watching a T.V. near the train tracks when one is accelerating by. It turns green, and looks like an osciliscope. After the train passes, it goes back to normal.
Considering the "cut and cover" method used to build the subway, it's a safe bet the tunnel is entirely beneath the traffic-carrying lanes of 149th St., and also that it is not too far below the surface.
Todd Glickman has mentioned a watch with a built-in "altimiter" function, perhaps you could get such a unit and measure the altitudes (based on air pressure) that it reads in the tunnel and on the surface.
Ummm, a barometric altimeter is useless in the subway tunnel
unless you can stop all airflow. Otherwise the velocity pressure
of the moving air will completely overwhelm the small static
pressure difference of descending a few dozen feet.
Jeff is correct. My altimeter/watch will not give accurate readings in tunnels. I have started to collecte depth measurements for Peggy in support of her line-by-line essays, but these are on platforms where air flow is minimal.
In fact it is fun to stand at the railfan window of an M-1/3 on the LIRR when entering the East River tube from Queens, and watch the altimeter go haywire due to the rapid pressure changes. I have always attributed these to ventilation systems that are designed to evauate smoke from a tunnel.
Airflow in a subway tunnel is a pretty messy thing. You have
laminar flow well in advance of the train, heavy turbulence
at the front of the train, and probably pockets of negative
pressure around the rest of the train from venturi effects.
In fact, if your ears are a little extra-sensitive because of
a cold, you can feel a nice pressure "pop" when the front of
the train passes one of those ventilation towers. It's sort
of a tornado effect, right Todd?
Gee whiz, Jeff, that's Transit and Weather Together! You are correct in your analysis of the fluid dynamic effects. I would suggest however that a better analogy than the tornado would be strong winds blowing across Manhattan and being deflected by tall buildings: On one side you can have strong gusts; on another little noticeable effect (near the ground). What you're not measuring from your vantage point on the sidewalk are the updrafts and downdrafts -- all caused by the differential pressure induced by the wind flow. Only the frame of reference is different; where in a train tunnel the train is moving rapidly compared to the relatively calm wind; in the above analogy, the wind is blowing rapidly compared to the relatively calm buildings :-)
One of the many things that pisses me off about my job is that no one believes there is any possibility of redevelopment at Coney Island, and has any interest in modifying the stupid zoning there. But now, along Gravesend Bay, Forest City is proposing a big multiplex and Home Depot is in the public review process for a Home Depot in a place where they paid big bucks to buy out homeowners and are seeing to rezone land from R. Costco wants to somehow convert a site on the north side of Coney Island Creek and open a warehouse club. And there are three competing proposals in Coney Island Proper, including a minor league stadium.
Which brings us to the question: back in the 1950s, how did so many people get to Coney Island? I've heard special subways mentioned. How frequent was the service? Did express buses run also? How many came by car? Where did they park?
What could they be today (G express?)
I am not an 'old' Brooklynite but I believe that the Brighton, Franklin and pre-IND Culver ran 'beach-direction' expresses on saturdays and possibly sundays. Remember also that many trolleys and buses terminated in Coney Island, so for most people Coney was at most two fares away. Rail service to Coney Island along McDonald Avenue goes back to at least 1875 with the Prospect Park and Coney Island Railroad.
I'm sure the homeowners in those little old bungalows off the Belt Parkway were happy to be bought out by Costco.
I'm glad to see that there are true proposals for redevelopment on Coney Island. It's about time. It's also amazing to me that there are no requests on the table for reinvgorating the Amusement area. Astroland is a mere shadow of what there once was.
Back in the 1950s, how did so many people get to Coney Island?
There was abundant subway service (and in the early 50s, trolley service). There were "sunny summer specials" that ran from Franklin Ave via Brighton, Stillwell, Sea Beach and 4th Ave to downtowm Manhattan. Even without these trains, there was service to Stilwell Ave more often than there is now. Remember that Coney Island became the "playground of the common man" because of it's proximity to mass transit.
Did express buses run also?
I'm not aware of any express bus service during weekends at any time.
How many came by car? Where did they park?
I don't have figures, but this is a great question. I know in the 70s when my family went to visit my grandmother in Brighton Beach, we'd usually have to park blocks away. I'd imagine many people tried to find spots on Ocean Parkway and Neptune Ave (before it was rebuilt into Trump Village and Luna Park).
What could they be today (G express?)
You should see the D train on sunny weekends. Quite crowded all the way to Brighton. The D seems to get the brunt of the crowds because many trips are originating from the Bronx, and the D is the closest line.
I suppose if Coney Island was built up to the extent that more service would be needed, I'd suggest sending D beach peak service express under 4th Ave, Brooklyn (bypasing Dekalb) and via the Sea Beach express track (One is being torn up, the other is getting bi-directional signalling). Gee, does this sound familiar to anyone?? Or, since there's no Brighton Express service during the weekends, maybe restore it during sunny weekends?
--Mark
Just saw a report oppposing one of the redevelopment proposals in Coney Island. Significant air quality impact. Seems that under federal air quality legislation, you can't rebuild in areas that used to be built before, because its congested and some of the people might drive. But you can build on the sububan fringe where it's not congested.
[Seems that under federal air quality legislation, you can't rebuild in areas that used to be built before,]
I'm pretty sure a federal appeals court recently invalidated the EPA's rules about this. The National League of Cities and U.S. Conference of Mayors had fought a major battle against them...
When I visited Coney Island in 1991 I was deeply disappointed in what I saw. The whole place looked run down and shabby and even the Stillwell Avenue train station looked seedy. I know they rebuilt lower Manhattan into a nice tourist, dining, and shopping area. Why can't interested New Yorkers return Coney Island to the tourist, vacation and recreational area it once was. I think it could be done, or am I just old fashioned when it comes to my favorite playland as a kid?
[ could Coney Island be like the old days? ]
Technically, I don't see why not. If you visit the Jersey Shore, especially the South Jersey shore, you'll find places, like Wildwood that remind me of Coney Island in the 50's, but bigger (I think Wildwood is about 3x as big) and better, with modern rides.
OTOH, I don't think the City has the will or interest to recreate anything like the old Coney Island. When Moses was Parks Commissioner he actively worked to shrink the amusement area, which he felt was unsuitable for nice people.
Why wouldn't the City want to keep some amusement $$$ at home. One guess--large uncontrolled amusement areas (unlike controlled ones like Disney World or Six Flags) always invite crime and some level of disorder. Perhaps they fear gang activity, of which there was some in the 50's. Maybe they just lack vision. After all, look at the Rockaways, one of the finest strips of beach in the world--just sitting there.
Hi, Paul and my fellow SubTalkers!
Just thought I'd add my knowledge here. It's not too commonly known that Disney was in fact interested in the Coney Island property back in the early 90's during the height of their expansion period. The two biggest stumbling blocks -- parking facilities and either an alternate to, or expansion of the Belt Parkway. (The Belt Parkway's limited amount of lanes is also a MAJOR holdup of that proposed minor league baseball stadium).
Another factor in Disney's turnoff was the fact that unlike their other amusement parks -- being on the Atlantic shoreline -- CI gets hit with some pretty nasty weather come winter time. They would have to either enclose the entire facility or shut it down -- as is the common practice -- once fall approaches. The financial returns probably wouldn't justify the building expenses.
BTW, Paul, some Canadian real estate firm is interested in developing the Rockaways (at LONG LAST). It will (unfortunately) include a shopping mall (E gads -- not another one!), and middle to upper-income one and two family dwellings. Again, this is only a proposal and nothing is written in stone. According to my sources, this is the second time in the last several years that a developer has expressed interest in that vast 'no man's land'. I agree, it's a terrible waste of some potential 'hot' beachfront property.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
Hi again, Doug
I think the last Rockaway scheme fell down over class issues. I can't believe some reasonable compromise could not be hammered out. Even a very upscale development along the miles of Rockaway Beach could benefit all, including the poorer residents. It's the _only_ way I can think of to bring any kind of jobs to the area.
Leaving the Rockaways the way they are is a terrible loss of a great recreation resource.
Even the seagulls must be unhappy with the current arrangement. Beachgoers = seagull lunch and supper.
Paul
[Even the seagulls must be unhappy with the current arrangement. Beachgoers = seagull lunch and supper.]
Not just seagulls. Swimmers = shark lunch and supper.
City Planning killed Arverne by studying it until the 1980s boom ended. These jerks spent years arguing about commas in the RFP -- six months later the same person was arguing the reverse of what they argued six months before. Then they gave the private sector a couple of months to come up with complete plans to respond to the RFP. "The community" demanded a reduction from 10,000 units to 7,500 units because of "traffic" (but now wants an entertainment facility which will generate far more traffic, until they don't). Finally, the whole thing was approved -- and the stock market tanked.
I'm sure "careful planning" will stall this latest proposal until the next recession. But the "community" gets to have its fun and all the pols get to grandstand, once again.
[re city and community approval of Rockaway development plans]
It's more than slightly absurd that any development plans for the Arverne area even require approval. Most of the area consists of little more than crumbling roads and vacant overgrown lots. It has a definite postapocalyptic look. There's no "community" that should have any right of objection. As far as the city's concerned, it sure seems to me that just about any development would be infinitely preferable to what is - or, more correctly, *isn't* - there.
Where exactly is the Arverne area? My Rockaways geography is rather sketchy at best.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Where exactly is the Arverne area? My Rockaways geography is rather sketchy at best.]
A short distance to the west of Far Rockaway.
Peter -
Thanks for the information. I've only been out to Far Rockaway two or three times in the past few years, but I think I know where you're describing - maybe the next time I have to go to JFK I'll have an extra hour and can ride out there and back to refresh my memory.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a question. I know Far Rockaway is in Queens, but are the Rockaways Queens, Brooklyn or a combination of both. I've been a
Californian for 44 years so you'll have to pardon my ignorance on this matter.
[I have a question. I know Far Rockaway is in Queens, but are the Rockaways Queens, Brooklyn or a combination of both.]
The Rockaway Peninsula is fully within Queens.
Pete. Thanks! This is quite a message site isn't? I've learned a lot since I've online.
Technically speaking, the enter Rockaway Peninsula was at one time a part of Nassau County. I believe it was annex and then sold to NYC sometime before WWII? (maybe the sale was earlier than that -- I'm not sure). However, to this day the area is still electrically serviced by Long Island's LILCO.
Also, at one time my community of Canarsie Brooklyn was also considered Long Island and not solely a neighorhood of Kings County (This was during it's hey-day as a productive fishing & clamming seaport on Jamacia Bay in the early part of the century).
Doug aka BMTman
< Technically speaking, the enter Rockaway Peninsula was at one time a part of Nassau County. I believe it was annex and then sold to NYC sometime before WWII? (maybe the sale was earlier than that -- I'm not sure). >
Hi, Doug. Until Consolidation Day (1/1/1898) present day Queens and Nassau Counties were both Queens County, all the way to the Suffolk border. The Queens towns of Hempstead, North Hempstead and Oyster Bay chose not to become part of what is technically known as The City of Greater New York.
The Rockaways were part of Hempstead Town, which is now part of Nassau County. How a piece of Hempstead Town was allowed to break off and join the City, I don't know.
One thing is for sure -- it became a 'dumping ground' for the lower-class and welfare recipient-class over the years. And of course with that came drug-related crime and the ensuing problems therein. Too bad both Nassau County (originaly) and then the City turned there backs on this area. Truly sad when you consider that with the A train running out there, the Far Rockaways could have been a viable, upscale-beachfront community -- like Brooklyn's Manhattan Beach or the nearby Hewlett Harbor in Nassau County -- with easy access to Manhattan.
Doug aka BMTman
[One thing is for sure -- it became a 'dumping ground' for the lower-class and welfare recipient-class over the years. And of course with that came drug-related crime and the ensuing problems therein. Too bad both Nassau County (originaly) and then the City turned there backs on this area. Truly sad when you consider that with the A train running out there, the Far Rockaways could have been a viable, upscale-beachfront community -- like Brooklyn's Manhattan Beach or the nearby Hewlett Harbor in Nassau County -- with easy access to Manhattan.]
For the record, not all of the Rockaway peninsula is a dead loss. Neponsit and Belle Harbor are nice residential areas. They are the areas located to the west of the Beach 116th subway terminal. And the eastern side of Far Rockaway, close to the Nassau line, has a relatively well-off and stable Orthodox Jewish community.
Yet it is true that most of Far Rockaway, which is sort of the downtown section of the peninsula, is in sorry shape. When you combine that with the urban-renewal disaster in Arverne and nearby areas, it's easy to think of the entire peninsula as a hopeless case.
One reason that might have contributed to the decline of Far Rockaway in particular has to do with the "dumping ground" comment you made. According to a relatively recent discussion on nyc.transit, the city housing authority long made it a practice to relocate problem tenants to the Far Rockaway projects. I guess that illustrated the "out of sight, out of mind" adage. These relocated tenants would include, for example, people who had started fires in their buildings or used their apartments for dealing drugs. It's no surprise that they contributed to the decline and fall of their new neighborhood.
Thanks, Peter. That's why it always seemed to have a higher-overall crime rate than most of the other areas of the city. To this day it's reputation is a scary one.
Incidentally, I do a ritual summer bike ride through the area (via the boardwalk on my way to Long Beach and Point Lookout) and find that the 'no man's land' area is situated between two housing projects. Maybe that's why no development has commenced in Far Rockaway.
Doug aka BMTman
During the Reagan era, that seemed to be the major goal of urban gentrification. The yuppies, tired of commuting from the suburbs they had run to, were going to come back in and push the low class out to the edges. It semed to progress a bit, but then it seemed that crack scared them into backing off, and people are still fleeing the city.
(No gentrification, people fleeing the city).
People may be fleeing from other cities, but not this one. The passing down of housing to those poorer, and its abandonment, is proceeding in areas on the fringe of the city and in some suburbs as the housing reaches 50 years old. Closer in, as Manhattan and even close-in Brooklyn becomes less affordable, neighborhoods somewhat further out are attracting college graduates, and retaining more local families moving up. One example -- a friend of ours who is a judge can no longer afford to buy a house in Windsor Terrace, where we live, so his family is buying a house in Marine Park. He grew up in East New York, but did not choose to leave Brooklyn. Twenty-five years ago, Windsor Terrace was redlined (according to the older families here) and a judge would have been the richest family in the area. One neighbor had to put down 50 percent. Fortunately the house sold for just $30,000. One like it recently sold for $450,000.
Only the federal and state governments can kill this city off, and they are trying their best.
Right on, Larry! I've been a life-long Brooklynite (recently the suburbs of Long Island, but now back in the County of Kings).
Over the years one of the phenomenons of gentrification is that those neighborhoods that had either been redlighted (Windsor Terrace) or former semi-industrial (Sunset Park, Williamsburg/Greenpoint overlooking the River) start their 'rebirth' via the influx of artistic-type transient people (mostly young white college-educated single/couples from OUT OF STATE). Granted that they will go and clean-up and refurbish old warehouses and turn them into artists' lofts. In some cases they turn the buildings into galleries for art shows and fund-raising parties.
However, before long, either due to their clean-up efforts, or just the 'word getting out', these neighborhoods became 'hot', experiencing a sudden and ruthless increase in rental fees for just those structures that were 'homesteaded' by the earlier more humble 'bohemian artists'. Unfortunately, this affected the original working-class folks in the area as they were no longer able to afford to live in what fast became an 'upscale enclave'. Yes, even the famous Park Slope section was once 'undesirable' (As late as the 70's it used to have a notorious gang-related crime problem). Now you can't even afford to sneeze in that neighborhood!
In any event, I agree with Larry wholeheartedly and feel a bit pissed that alot of these yuppies can act, behave and BRAG about being Brooklynites, while the most many of them have lived here is less than TEN years!
Long Live the Original Brooklynites!!
Doug aka BMTman
"Gentrification" will never restore the majority of the city to affluence or even middle-income status -- there will never be enough of it. However, that combined with working-class and poor people staying around after they move up would do the trick.
But not all the news is good. In college, I lived in a house with New Yorkers who were orignially from Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. They are all gone to the burbs and beyond. As one told me, until he got to college and was able to compare he never realized how violent the city is, and how bad the schools are. I wasn't about to tell him to stay in West Farms. Perhaps lower crime will turn attitudes around.
[Another factor in Disney's turnoff was the fact that unlike their other amusement parks -- being on the Atlantic shoreline -- CI gets hit with some pretty nasty weather come winter time.]
Yet the cold weather at Coney Island could be a financial boost for Disney. It would take less power to keep Walt's liquid nitrogen tank at the proper temperature.
[Just thought I'd add my knowledge here. It's not too commonly known that Disney was in fact interested in the Coney Island property back in the early 90's during the height of their expansion period. The two biggest stumbling blocks -- parking facilities and either an alternate to, or expansion of the Belt Parkway. (The Belt Parkway's limited amount of lanes is also a MAJOR holdup of that proposed minor league baseball stadium).]
It's too bad that Disney didn't think in terms of transit access. Coney Island may lack parking and have relatively difficult road acess, but transit connections are excellent. I suppose there's nothing surprising about Disney's viewpoint, as the company's other parks - and, indeed, most large theme parks nationwide - are very much vehicle-oriented.
Actually, I was pretty impressed by the transportation network Disney has put together in Orlando. Between shuttles to and from all the local hotels, the two monorail lines and bus lines connecting all the Disney attractions which come together at one central hub it was far more than I thought I'd see.
Disney's Orlando monorail is considered an Intermediate Capacity Transit System. It is well run.
--Mark
t's too bad that Disney didn't think in terms of transit access. Coney Island may lack parking and have relatively difficult road acess, but transit connections are excellent.
Imagine a cross-the-platform transfer from the West End Line to the Disney Coney Island Monorail .....
Not quite the Norton's Point Trolley, but one can dream :)
--Mark
The Belt Parkway's limited amount of lanes is also a MAJOR holdup of that proposed minor league baseball stadium.
That doesn't make sense. The Major Deegan running by Yankee Stadium has the same number of lanes as the Belt Pkwy .....
I presume some kind of direct access from the Belt to the proposed stadium would need to be built ... but, as mentioned by others, transit access can't be beat!
--Mark
Mark,
The Deegan has the same number of lanes, but you only need to be on it for a short time - the Cross Bronx, GWB, Triboro, Henry Hudson Pkwy and several other highways all feed into the Deegan or are right near it close to the stadium. There is _no_ limited access highway other than the Belt anywhere near Coney Island - the closest is the Verrazano Bridge/Gowanes (sp?) Expressway, several miles away.
subfan
True, but the lack of limited-access highways is true of all of Brooklyn (Belt, Gowanus, BQE, Jackie Robinson Pkwy, Prospect Expwy) - not just in that area. Just because a ballfield is being considered isn't going to correct something affecting the entire borough.
Then again, thinking about it, the lack of limited-access highways is probably proportional to the level of subway service that Brooklyn has (or had, not counting the closure of the Mahnattan Bridge south-side). A good part of Brooklyn is (or was, counting elevateds) served with mass transit, something that isn't as true in Queens.
--Mark
[Then again, thinking about it, the lack of limited-access highways is probably proportional to the level of subway service that Brooklyn has (or had, not counting the closure of the Mahnattan Bridge south-side). A good part of Brooklyn is (or was, counting elevateds) served with mass transit, something that isn't as true in Queens.]
I would be interested in seeing comparative car-ownership statistics for Brooklyn and Queens. It's quite likely that ownership rates for Queens are notably higher.
Car ownership: 60 percent Queens, 40 percent Brooklyn.
The problem with the Belt is that it is not only the only highway in Brooklyn, it is the only real route from Long Island to the southern United States. And, it doesn't allow trucks.
Moses wanted to build an expressway from Conduit Ave (which was built), up Broadway Brooklyn, through Manhattan, and out the other side. The Manhattanites nixed that, and Lindsey proposed an expressway in the Bay Ridge ROW, with lots of goodies to buy off the community. The state nixed that -- the highway lobby didn't like highway money being used for the goodies -- and built the highway connecting route 17 to Rochester with the money instead.
So here we are. People opposed commercial development along the Belt because its congested, but it is the only highway Brooklyn has. Coney Island has the Belt, Ocean Parkway, and subways too. It is the best available site.
Hey, Larry that info about the Bay Ridge ROW and the plans of turning it into a highway route may have started with Lindsay, but was also a contingency plan if/when the LIRR ever decides to get rid of the line.
As a matter of fact there are a number of plans afoot including turning the ROW into a sort of long, but narrow combination bike/pedestrian path, with benches, water fountains and the like. This plan for the route would have fallen into the jurisdiction of the city parks department. Another plan would have the ROW left in its natural state and turned over to the Dept. of the Interior for use as park land and/or inclusion into the Gateway National Recreation Area (Floyd Bennett Field, Jamacia Bay, etc.) as a bird sanctuary.
As for motor traffic, the only alternative to the Belt Parkway is the much slower, but less volumous Linden Blvd. The Conduit never quite made it as a viable alternative since it becomes the massively congested Atlantic Avenue at the Bushwick/Ridgewood border.
Doug aka BMTman
The Bay Ridge line at least has a reprieve with the NY Regional Rail Corp. and the CSX/NSC merger pinning hopes of expanded NY area freight traffic on the line.
So no bike path just yet.
Right, Paul. My last post were the proposed land-use considerations should the freight line go belly up. Most of those proposals were done in the 70s and 80s, a time when the Bay Ridge was fading fast as a useful rail line. Recently, due mostly to our over-congested, tractor-trailer clogged highways, the float-barge freight rail lines in NYC are going through a slow, but much needed return to life.
Doug
(Alternatives to the Belt) Linden Blvd dies in Flatbush, where every major arterial narrows down to get through the old village. The big problem is trucking -- one reason industry doesn't want to be in Brooklyn. Even with a rail link, there would be no way to move stuff once it gets off the train.
I have two ideas.
1) Put the LIRR underground on Atlantic and make it strictly a truck route (cars on Eastern Pkwy). It moves until the LIRR comes up, then it dies. Putting the LIRR underground would at least get you to 4th and Flatbush.
2) Some how use tunnels or underpasses to get vehicles from Linden Blvd to the Prospect. Maybe two lanes on Flatbush, Bedford and Ocean could be run under Caton and Church, and Caton and Church could be given 3 to 1 signal priority to get the traffic through.
All of this is less important than doing something about the Manhattan Bridge.
[(Alternatives to the Belt) Linden Blvd dies in Flatbush, where every major arterial narrows down to get through the old village. The big problem is trucking -- one reason industry doesn't want to be in Brooklyn. Even with a rail link, there would be no way to move stuff once it gets off the train.]
What about reviving the old plans to use the Bay Ridge rail line as a highway? I wouldn't advocate closing the rail line; as noted elsewhere on the thread, there appears to be a (still modest) revival in rail freight traffic in progress. My idea would be to deck over the rail line and have trucks (and possibly other vehicles) use it at ground level. There'd still be the need to deal with intersections, but at least ROW acquisition wouldn't be an issue.
Wasn't it found that the Bay Ridge ROW was too narrow in spots to accomodate a normal highway? It would require building two levels of decking - one for eastbound traffic and one for westbound. That would drive up the cost, I don't know by how much. It would also add to pollution with exhaust lingering in the lower level, which would increase NIMBY objections. Some kind of ventilation system would then have to be added, driving costs up further. Still not impossible, but not likely.
I believe the proposals did involve widening the ROW, which isn't a problem in the eastern and western ends (one could enclose the subway tracks) but in the center, it proved a problem where many homes would be demolished. As for Linear City, that would have to demolish everything anyway, so if that was a proposal, I don't see why a one level highway wouldn't.
One proposal favored by City Planning is a "freightway", with one track in the middle and a one-lane highway for trucks on each side. The whole thing would be decked over for parkland, and vented in stacks over the rooves. But besides the NIMBY, you have to take on the pro-rail (actually anti-road) nuts, and deal with the kerosene pipeline down below. But if it were built, containers could get right off a train, onto a truck, and circulate around Brooklyn on the same facility.
Mark,
The point I was trying to make was that there is a difference between the accessability of Yankee Stadium and Coney Island. I agree with you that Brooklyn as a whole has a limited number of highways; however, I was comparing Coney Island with the Bronx, not the rest of Brooklyn.
subfan
True, but the lack of limited-access highways is true of all of
<Then again, thinking about it, the lack of limited-access highways is probably proportional to the level of subway service that Brooklyn has (or had, not counting the closure of the Mahnattan Bridge south-side). A good part of Brooklyn is (or was, counting elevateds) served with mass transit, something that isn't as true in Queens.
--Mark>>
Well, a large part of the valley of the Cross-Brooklyn Expressway was NOT served by rapid transit. The expressway was to run on the LIRR Bay Ridge ROW.
Don't forget, your average minor league team draws less than 10,000 fans per game. The Yankees will probably average three times that this year.
A team in Coney Island would probably draw fans mainly from Brooklyn and Staten Island with a handful from Manhattan and Queens. If the stadium is built in a transit friendly location, I doubt that the impact on the Belt anywhere near what your average rush hour or hot Saturday afternoon in the summer will bring.
Bring on Charles S. Feldman and Nathan Hanamaker. Lots and lots of great Coney Island Red Hots and Frankfurters. Of course we must have mustard and saurakraut. I like the FF's.
Feltman and Handwerker
I like my Nathan's FF's with that gloppy melted cheese they have.
No trip to CI (going out on the "B" or the "Q"/"D" combo, of course) is complete without a lunch at Nathan's. Ever have a hot dog at a Nathan's other than the one at CI? For some reason, and I don't know exactly what it is, the dogs at Nathan's CI seem to taste different than the ones at other Nathan's. They're WAY better! Maybe it's the salt air, maybe it's that ancient roller grill they use, maybe it's just my imagination. Anyway, I may get out that way this Friday, hopefully aboard a Slant R40 "Q" (as far as Brighton Beach)
and enjoy a couple of dogs and some cheez fries.
Wayne
I, too, agree than Nathan's hot dogs taste much better at CI than at any other Nathan's. Ditto for the fries.
W-e-l-l, There's a pretty good one in Oceanside LI, you can get there on the LI Bus N15. BTW, Tuesday is Motorcycle Night ... rum rum.
Mr t__:^)
I dunno..the Nathans in our local mall does it REAL well..although youre right..the Stillwell & Surf somehow IS better..my joke is that they havent changed the oil for the fries since 1916..lol (maybe its steel dust???)
Wayne..what time you planning on being there? I was going to do that before the PCC trip also...maybe we could meet somewhere???
Wasn't Oceanside a "real" Nathan's, opened back in the 1950s or maybe even earlier? The only "real" ones were Coney Island, Oceanside, and then Times Square when Nathan's took over the old Toffinetti's Restaurant site (I think I have that name spelled wrong).
The rest, as well as the supermarket franks, are all clones made by whoever bought out the original Nathan's.
And while their food is usually good, it doesn't have the genuine taste of Coney Island Nathan's.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
I bet the Nathan's family stipulated at the time of their sale of the franchise that the famous restaurant #1 (Coney Island) use ingredients from the "original family receipe" and that the other venues could do whatever the heck they wanted to do. Thus the inconcistancy of the flavors.
I do believe that Oceanside was the "second" Nathan's outlet.
BTW, I believe the CI site is the only Nathan's that also offers clams and oysters on their menu. There is a separate "clam bar" that is closer to the Surf Ave. corner of the establishment.
Doug aka BMTman
I believe there was also an "original" Nathan's outlet in Westcheser County. I don't remember what town it was in, but it was on Central Avenue (on the east side) just a bit north of where Central Avenue splits off from the New York Thruway (I-87). I don't know whether it's still there.
There is a Nathan's at the airport in Newark, NJ and on the NJ Turnpike.
EAT UP THOSE DOGS GUYS AND DOLLS!!!
I believe there is also a Nathan's in Hoboken, but it didn't look too heavily patronized.
There's one at Court Street near Borough Hall in Brooklyn too - the franks there are positively RUBBERY! Maybe it's too much bus exhaust or something. Blecchhh!
Wayne
Wayne, it's a really lame Nathan's that actually shares it's space with a Kentucky Fried Chicken or something else. It's one of those Reese Corp. franchise deals. (Like the connection between KFC, Pizza Hut and Taco Bell -- they are all owned by Pepsico).
Doug aka BMTman
[(Like the connection between KFC, Pizza Hut and Taco Bell -- they are all owned by Pepsico).]
Pepsico spun them off about a year ago into a new corporation called Tricon Global Restaurants. Pepsico retained little if any ownership stake in the new company. But all three still serve Pepsi products.
Which is why the Nathans on the roads sell Pepsi..another debit (sorry Pepsi folks..theres NOTHING like Coca-Cola with food..one of the reasons KFC,PH etc ALL went downhill after Pepsi bought 'em but this is REALLY off topic!!!)
I am a strict Diet Pepsi man. When I go to Nathan's I buy my soda first - at the little convenience store to the right (as you're looking at it) of the Stillwell Avenue station entrances. Only $1 for a 20-ounce, ice cold. I don't care too much for Coca-Cola, or even regular Pepsi for that matter. Even the Diet Coke is too sweet for me. The Diet Pepsi has a nice, dry taste.
Wayne
I'm also on the side of Diet Pepsi. My objection to Diet Coke (which I'll drink if there's no D.P. available) is that it's sort of "oily," not sweet exactly. Diet Pepsi is much more refreshing, especially the fountain-served Big Gulps at 7-11 (the Super Big Gulps don't fit in my car's cupholders, unfortunately).
OK you guys & gals on this threat I have a "Field Trip" just for you !
This Sat., June 5th at 2 PM the Oceanside Nathan's is having a hot dog eating contest. We'll meet at the LIRR Rockville Center station at 1 and be taking the N15 to the event. County Exec. Tom Galotta and Presidentual hopefull George Pataki will be there to greet you all :-)
(If you believe me, I also have a bridge for sale cheap)
BTW the contest is real ;-)
Mr t__:^)
Hey Thurston, are you sure you don't mean Tom Ghoulotta and George Puktaki ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Don't forget to bring Rolaids. Or Pepto-Bismol.
There's a Nathan's franchise in the Galleria Mall in Cambridge, Mass., within easy walking distance of the Lechmere Green Line trolley terminal (on-topic!). It just ain't the same as Coney Island or Times Square. The TS restaurant was a favorite stop for my father and me when we went subway riding (we were both much younger then...).
Frank Sinatra would be proud of having a Nathan's in his home town of Hoboken.
Getting way off topic, but.... I don't think Sinatra ever even visited Hoboken, once he left :-) Certainly not before he died, and even so, the Hoboken Nathans (Washington bet. 5th & 6th) opened within the past 6-8 months. If you're going to be on that block anyway, stop at East L.A. for a margarita. Tell 'em I sent ya ;-)
Sinatra was dragged back (almost literaly) to Hoboken for a campaign appaearnace with Reagan back in 1984 -- he apparently changed his mind on the flight from California to Newark, and had to be cajoled into going through with the event.
Went by Nathan's in Oceanside last night ... lots of old cars, but no buses or trolley :-(
The Oceanside Nathan's was the 2nd Nathan's opened and was a huge place with an indoor stage and live music. That Nathan's was knocked down during the 70's and replaced with the modern fast food style restaurant.
I believe they still have the full menu -- clams, oysters and frog's legs at Oceanside.
And all accessible from the N15 bus (just to keep this barely on topic).
You are correct in every respect.
They use to have puppet shows there on Sunday's (even after the new bldg went up). Still have a large game room.
Repeat: Tuesday is motorcycle night, take the N15 and do it at least once! Wed. is old cars, but the one Friday on Sunrise Highway (at Merrick or a little further)is much bigger, sorry no trolly/subway night :-(
You could even continue on the N15 & get the LIRR at Long Beach. Who said all the great free things to do were all in NYC ? Wasn't me.
Mr t__:^)
< Wasn't Oceanside a "real" Nathan's, opened back in the 1950s or maybe even earlier? The only "real" ones were Coney Island, Oceanside, and then Times Square when Nathan's took over the old Toffinetti's Restaurant site (I think I have that name spelled wrong). >
IIRC (going back to the 50s) "original" Nathan's (pre-franchise) were at Coney Island, Oceanside, Yonkers and Atlantic City.
I don't know the 43rd/Broadway Nathan provenance was, but I used to eat there regularly when I worked across the street, They tried to duplicate Nathan's Coney Island menu, complete with the Clam Broth with the stupid little cooked-to-death clam floating in it.
I'm really surprised how many people are interested in Nathan's. I agree that the Yonkers one was an "original," but I didn't know about the Atlantic City one. I'm sure the Times Square one was also an original along with Oceanside and Coney Island.
But all the others--Newark, Hoboken, Boca Raton FL (yes!), Albany NY (there were two, one in the Colonie Mall and one in Crossgates--the Crossgates one was really bad and even though it was in a large food court, it closed), the ones on the NY Thruway, and wherever else.
(I just did a quick search--a company in Kentucky apparently has some rights to use of the name.)
Making it relevant to Subtalk, one of the biggest problems I faced as a kid after arriving in Coney Island on the Culver or on one of the trolleys was whether to get a hot dog and an orange drink before or after going to the beach. And when money was short, it meant choosing Nathan's and then walking to West 23rd or 24th Street to the bathhouses like Scoville's or Oceantide that our family went to instead of taking the Norton's Point or Surf Avenue trolley.
Good to hear everybody's thoughts.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Speaking of Norton's Point, when did it become Sea Gate?
< Speaking of Norton's Point, when did it become Sea Gate? >
When Norton and Trixie started going to Orchard Beach instead ;-)
I believe the Sea Gate Assn. was formed in 1899 but I don't know when the name became commonly used. Sea Gate is inherently different from Norton's Point in that it is a private community, while Norton's Point is more a location name.
While the line from Coney Island depot was a trolley, it was called "Norton's Point," The bus was originally, 74-Norton's Point, but became 74-Mermaid Avenue, but signage in my memory at Coney Island still directed you to buses for Norton's Point, so obviously the name coexisted with Sea Gate for decades.
When I rode the Sea Gate Shuttle (Route 36a, a subroute of the 36-Surf Ave) you had to get of the Surf Avenue Bus at W37, walk through the gate, and get on the shutlle bus on the other side.
You're partially right Ed...The Nathans at Oceanside, TS and Yonkers were all owned by the original company. The outlets that you see in Manhattan, on the turnpikes etc are all franchised from the company by the same company (I forgot their name); (I actually got to talk to a Nathans management person once!) thats why they tend to be less than good. The outlets in Newport Center and other malls are OWNED by Nathans Famous Inc, and they have better control over them. The reason that the supermarket franks are different is,of course, they are SKINLESS..also they are made for the grill..there is nothing worse than a boiled Nathans frank....(Dave..isnt this seriously off topic??...unless you Nathans the official restaurant of NYSR....)I've always been amazed that they havent tried marketing frozen Nathans fries...Thats always been their REAL trump card....
That's something you can't freeze and sell in the supermarket. However, I wonder if they don't arrive AT Nathan's already frozen and then they just drop 'em in the hot oil. Either way, it's worth a long ride on an R68 just to get to Stillwell and enjoy 'em.
Correct about the grilling factor: Sun. and Mon. I did grill Nathan's "Bigger Than The Bun" Hot Dogs on my converted barbey. Came out reasonably well. Not the same as CI, but not bad. I put Del Monte Bavarian Style sauerkraut and Grey Poupon Deli-style mustard on 'em.
Wayne
[ Nathan's French Fries ]
I doubt Nathan's French Fries (at least at Coney Island) are ever frozen.
What makes their fries so different (and so good, IMHO) is that they are made from Maine (or round white, in industry parlance--they don't have to come from Maine) potatoes, which are moister and have a different texture than Russets (Idaho-style) used by most fast food outlets.
I suspect the "secret" to their tastiness is that they absorb more of the tasty grease and are more tender. My wife was an exchange student in Germany and told me that "pommes frites" served there are similar to Nathan's french fries. The Germans eat them with mayonnaise. It's probably illegal for a Brooklynite to eat them that way--but it's addictive--and kiss your waistline goodby.
Russets are the potato of choice for almost all fast food because they freeze well. If you try to freeze an uncooked Maine potato, the texture changes and it's not nice at all.
It's almost 8:30 at night, I'm still at the office, I haven't had dinner, and you're talking about REAL FOOD!!!! Have you no heart?!?!?!?!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am leaving on the 12:05PM from Babylon, an express, which arrives at Penn Station 12:58pm. After I putter around a bit and find me the right "Q" train (not an R40M or an R42, of course), I should be in the vicinity of Nathans between 2:00pm and 2:20pm. I'll have to change at Brighton Beach (I am going to photograph that stop as well as Kings Highway) for the "D" train.
Wayne
On my March subway tour Wayne took me to Nathans at CI and introduced me to Hot Dogs and cheese fries. As I type this here in Swindon looking out at the pouring cold wet rain I am also thinking of Chesse fries and feeling hungry. I suppose I will just have to wait till October for my next trip - Nathans again Wayne ?
Simon
Swindon UK
ABSOLUTELY, Simon!
Did it again yesterday and #4163 took me out to Brooklyn. Got some more front-window pictures - will have to see how they came out. I tried to dodge the scratchitti the best I could. Since she was in full flight, she was rocking and bouncing around, and at one point I had trouble keeping my hands and the camera still.
Do keep in touch! The PCCs AND the Redbirds should still be running come fall.
Wayne
[ A minor league stadium in Coney Island ]
There will be a new minor league team in Suffolk County, about 40-50 miles east of Shea Stadium.
I don't see any way the Yankees or Mets will stand for a minor league team as close as Coney Island, and accessible by subway, no less.
More's the pity--get back some of the intimacy of Ebbets Field for a professional baseball game.
The minor league stadium appears to be set, since the Mayor wants to spend the commuter tax (oops) on baseball. The EIS (ugh) is in process.
The fans will come from Latino neighborhoods, because baseball has lost Afro-American fans to basketball and white fans to football and soccer. Baseball is trying to lose the Latino fans too, but has not succeeded yet. Major league baseball is becomming to Latinos what the Appolo Ballroom was to Blacks -- they are welcome to perform, since they have the most talent, but not in the seats. If Major League Baseball wanted Latino fans, Steinbrenner would love the Bronx -- with LA and Miami its one of the three Latino capitals of the U.S. But perhaps they Latinos will be welcome in the minor league stadium, and there are many in Brooklyn as well..
Yes, I hate the monopoly major leagues. I would much prefer a 12,000 seat basketball arena with a CBA franchise, especially since its easier to use such an arena for other events than a ballfield. But that's just my opinion. If I go there, it will be by subway. Its 25 minutes away, so why not?
Larry, don't forget the growing Asian population in Astoria and elsewhere -- they are HUGE baseball fans although the popularity of the game is more in standing with Japanese than any other Asian-Pacific ethnic group at the moment. Others will join in as the populations grow.
As we enter the 21st Century America with be less black and white (both those groups have been producing less offspring), but more brown and yellow. Latin and Asian pops will continue to grow for the forseeable future. Looks like Spanish might become the official language after all -- or maybe chinese??? ;-)
Sayonara, Doug aka BMTman
(American becomming more diverse.) Tell that to Steinbrenner. Most people move to New York City because they like diversity. The sports leagues seem disappointed that they are not in the suburbs.
For the record, in addition to baseball stadia, the Mayor wants a first class cricket field.
I think a cricket field is long overdue for the New York area. The large Carribean population of the city is really into this weird looking British-originated cousin to baseball.
BTW, it's off topic, but did anyone know that one game of cricket can last for days? I was once watching a game being played in Prospect Park and asked one of the guys from Jamacia sitting on the sideline how it differs from baseball. He said that each team has to reach a certain score -- I think it was something like 45 points to win. However, they might not get to that score before the sun goes down -- hence one game may carry over two or three days!! Strange but true.
< did anyone know that one game of cricket can last for days? [ ... ] However, they might not get to that score before the sun goes down -- hence one game may carry over two or three days!! Strange but true. >
No I didn't, but, IIRC, the same applied to baseball. Games could be called on account of darkness, same as weather, and, if the score were tied and it was already an official game, the game was resumed the next time the two teams met, usually before the regularly scheduled game.
[The fans will come from Latino neighborhoods, because baseball has lost Afro-American fans to basketball and white fans to football and soccer. Baseball is trying to lose the Latino fans too, but has not succeeded yet. Major league baseball is becomming to Latinos what the Appolo Ballroom was to Blacks -- they are welcome to perform, since they have the most talent, but not in the seats. If Major League Baseball wanted Latino fans, Steinbrenner would love the Bronx -- with LA and Miami its one of the three Latino capitals of the U.S. But perhaps they Latinos will be welcome in the minor league stadium, and there are many in Brooklyn as well.]
All the major pro sports are trying to lose their "average" fans. All they seem interested in today are luxury boxes and club seats and "personal seat licenses." Anyone with an annual family income under six figures is about as welcome as a grogan in a swimming pool.
You know, I'd better take this rant to a more appropriate forum ...
< All the major pro sports are trying to lose their "average" fans. All they seem interested in today are luxury boxes and club seats and "personal seat licenses." Anyone with an annual family income under six figures is about as welcome as a grogan in a swimming pool. .
Not baseball. Guys in luxury boxes don't buy enough $3 hot dogs. Plus, you need people in the stands so it looks good for the TV cameras.
What's a grogan?
Hey, bring on the frankfurters. NEED LOTS AND LOTS OF NATHANS FRANKS. Must have mustard and saurakraut. It was great when the frankfurter guys at Nathans put their tongs under a bunch of perfectly lined up franks and flipped them over on the grill.
Did you know that Tony Bennett and Frank Sinatra ate franks at Nathans and there is a photo to prove it? I believe they are called franks because they are named that after Frank Sinatra.
They should rename Stillwell Avenue station to Frankfurter Street station. Maybe the F train stands for Frankfurter because it goes Nathans.
Bring on the Yanks to Coney Island. Bring on the boardwalk and beach. It will be great.
Umm, sorry but the "F" in F train stands for something else, and I don't mean hot dogs ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Correction BMT man it's frankfurters. What does the F stand for? Tell me.
Well, D., I don't want to be graphic -- but I was refering to the oft noted poor service on the Culver Line.
I was just adding some levity to the SubTalk boards. No offense meant.
Doug aka BMTman
Not only does F stand for frank, but N stands for Nathan's, D stands for dog, and B stands for bun.
D. Rosenthal - Mr. Train Control writes,
> Did you know that Tony Bennett and Frank Sinatra ate franks at
> Nathans and there is a photo to prove it? I believe they are
> called franks because they are named that after Frank Sinatra.
Sorry, but the Merriam-Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (Tenth Edition) notes the first recorded use of "frank" as a shortened form of "frankfurter" as being in 1904, years before either Sinatra or Bennett were born. A note to Springfield MA would probably get you the exact quote the editors are referring to.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
[< All the major pro sports are trying to lose their "average" fans. All they seem interested in today are luxury boxes and club seats and "personal seat licenses." Anyone with an annual family income under six figures is about as welcome as a grogan in a swimming pool>
Not baseball. Guys in luxury boxes don't buy enough $3 hot dogs. Plus, you need people in the stands so it looks good for the TV cameras.
What's a grogan?]
Team owners aren't really interested in selling $3 hot dogs. They'd rather peddle overpriced "gourmet" slop to the big shots in the luxury boxes and slightly less overpriced semi-gourmet slop to the big shot wannabes in the club seats. Though your point's well-taken about filling the stands for the benefit of the cameras. Maybe the team owners can get some of those life-size inflatable dolls ... although the TV watchers would find it strange that the people in the cheap seats are all gorgeous young females :-)
Oh, about grogans. Here's a clue - fossilized dinosaur grogans are known as "coprolites." Now do you get it?
I never knew Disney had been interested in the area. i had just been thinking, after seeing what they're doing with Times Sq. tht perhaps they should build in C.I. I know there were plans for a stadium before, then housing development. But then, 13 years ago, I first read of the Kansas Fried Chicken chain's owner's plan to rebuild the Steeplechase park, complete with the horses! It would be partly open in the winter to prevent vandalism.(I still have the clipped articles). I was so excited. Coney Island had become so depressing, to the point that I said I would not go back until that western end was revitalized. (My last time there was that summer-- '86, to Nathan's I got hamburgers there; I don't eat hot dogs. Then there was my first trip on the new R-68's, from 57/7th, to Stillwell and back to Atlantic.)
But the city gave the guy problems and the banks wouldn't finance it. So then this faded, and now it's a sports complex again. And even that is being put on hold by the mayor, as I read a copule of weeks ago in the News. I had noticed how all nice theme parks are all miles from the city. It was suggested to me that noone is interested in having these things in the city. The city is known for Times Square and the rest of midtown, not theme parks, and Coney Island is out of the way. I didn't think that was accurate, and I was annoyed at the fact that the bureaucrats who killed this proposal could all hop a plane to Disney World as easy as we could take transit to Coney Isnad, so what does it really matter to them.
Good points, Eric B. Notice how the only area of the city that gets infusion from outside interests is Manhattan? That is no accident. Even though he talked of aiding the outer boroughs, for the most part Rudy G. has back tracked on just about every Brooklyn, Queens, and Bronx land-use proposals.
Oh, BTW, one of the reasons Rudy has put a stop to the Coney Island stadium plan is the fact that he and Brooklyn Borough Prez Howard Golden have personal differences. (The problem was that the stadium idea came NOT from the Mayor, but from Golden. He had been pushing for this for nearly ten years and it was "his baby"). Being a small and vindictive man, our Honorable Mayor would rather punish the entire population of the borough just because the stadium-complex idea came from another politico. Well, should we be surprised?
Doug aka BMTman
(The city gave the guy problems). The city approved the project, and offered to give the guy (Bollard) a huge chunk of under-utilized land adjactent to his own for next to nothing. I have the Environmenal Impact Statement on my desk. He couldn't bet financing, but that is not the city's fault.
He was just ahead of his time, and behind the times. Behind the times in that he should have proposed an indoor facility, which could operate year round, and brought in partners experienced in running indoor entertainment complexes. Ahead of his time in that urban entertainment complexes had not been invented yet, and lenders still thought of Brooklyn as an area in decline. Perhaps an updated form of what he proposed could be done today. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your point of view, we are likely to get a minor league stadium in operation just 40 nights a year instead.
Your probably right. I actually spoke to Bullard on the phone once. I think it must have been someone else who suggested that the city also gave him trouble.
I had suggested starting small and building gradually, but he said the banks wouldn't finance that. You had to prove to them that the whole thing was worth their investment.
Hope Bullard keeps trying. I keep arguing to do a rezoning to allow retail. Retail mixed with indoor entertainment would work. He should push for a zoning change in the area. We may not be able to make things happen, but we shouldn't stand in his way.
It seems he has given up. The last I heard, he had turned the project over to some other company, and I heard nothing else of it until the recent new stadium proposal.
The sports complex will have a retail area.
Right on.
You look at the Jersey Shore amusement communities and wonder why NY doesn't encourage investors to do the same. Additional tax revenues for the City and another reason for tourists to visit New York City. Maybe once the minor league ballpark goes in, who knows .... the Abe Stark ice rink was supposed to be a catalyst for development 20 years ago, and that never caught on ....
--Mark
Hi, Techies -- here's one for you:
The R-68, R-68A, and R-62A are getting new Westinghouse E-Cam controllers (which the R-44s already got during overhaul), replacing electropneumatic controllers. In addition to being fully electric, these controllers are computerized. My question is this:
Will an E-Cam-equipped subway car be better able to reach and hold top speed, even on up-grades? Some people I've talked to think they will, some think they won't. Additionally, since the E-Cams have computer logic, is disconnection of the final stage of field shunting still necessary? Finally, is there a relationship between the E-Cam controller and the speedometer, in that the controller can get a speed reading from the speedometer and adjust propulsion output so that whatever speed is called for by the Train Operator can be provided?
David
1 NO
2 YES
3 NO
simple enough?
I'd rather see the TA install the Retro controllers with the RT5C package units with an add on dynamic brake controller mimicing the R-46 setup if they wanted something simple and modern.
Keep wishing Harold. We always have 6398 to play with. Then we can have full power AND full braking!
All the E-CAM does is replace electro-mechanical logic with
microprocessor logic. Functionally, it is the same as CAM.
Because the logic is a computer program, it is trivial to
change it or add features. In theory, it would be capable
of performing closed-loop control of speed. Of course, with
the conventional DC series-parallel rheostatic arrangement of
the existing motors and grids, fine-grain speed control is tough.
You can't run in resistance points, so you are forced to either
turn the power on and off, or play games with the field shunts.
The R-46 cars had this ability when delivered, though the logic
was implemented using discrete logic (LM339s, 7400s and the like).
I don't recall if the R-44 cars were delivered with functional
regulated speed mode.
The E-CAM retrofit will not deliver this feature. You'd have
to completely reconfigure the master controller and trainlines
in order to be able to send the speed commands to the individual
cars. At some later point in their careers, at least the R62/62A
and 68/68A fleet will probably receive AC propulsion when and if
it proves to be reliable on the 142/143 orders.
Will the E-CAM cars be "faster"? No. They will be calibrated to
the same acceleration rate as the current fleet. Will the field
shunting be re-enabled? Yes, in the year 2381 or whenever the
signal modernization program is scheduled for completion.
The bottom line is that the only way to increase speed is either regear, remotor or shunt.
Lower gear ratios derate performance.
Bigger motors use more power.
That leaves field shunts and we already know the answer to that one!
When does the Link from Queensbridge-21 to Queens Blvd open?
2001. It's an oddesey.
riding by the point where the two lines merge, it looks like it could be finished in 60 days. What is taking so long? Maybe, when they're done with the Willy B, the contractor down there . . . ?
The structural work is moving very fast. However, the electrical, signal and pumping machines are not as yet installed, let alone the tracks.
The actual connection between the existing lines and the new work is far from complete-at least two more years.
I know this is complex undertaking, but just how large a crew is working on site? And with how many shifts?
This is taking longer than the origional IRT in 1904!
The original IRT contract didn't have to deal with pesky safety regulations and unions which slow down today's construction (sarcasm) LOL
The elevator cabs have been rebuilt on MARTA using all stainless steel and stainless steel diamond plates for floors. You figure out why??
A 200 car order could grow to 1000 cars for the LIRR. Bombardier was the low bidder by $200 million. Mitushibitu propulsion will be used with AC Drve.
For the first time I'll be able to travel to NYC and take photos on the subway without having to deal with bored parents.
Where are some good spots in relatively safe areas.
Well, try some of these personal favourites, in no particular order (by preference or geography):
Stillwell Ave (B/D/F/N)
W 8th St (D/F)
Brighton Beach (D/Q) (actually, the entire Brighton Line is very good because you'll see various construction techniques - open cut, embankment and traditional El.)
9th Ave - 39th St (B)
Neptune Ave or Ave X (F) - get shots of the Coney Island Yard, but you'll need a zoom lens to get good pictures)
There's no station here, but take pictures of the F train standing at Ave Z and Shell Road. Stand back enough and you can get a few of the cars AND the el structure in the same photo.
18th Ave (B) - curves on both ends of the station
Beverley Road (D) - Coney-Island bound platform. Good view of trains approaching from both directions.
Broadway - Eastern Pkwy (J,Z,L) - you'll be OK there during the day. May not be as much traffic as normal due to the Williamsburgh Bridge work. You might also try walking across the Willie B and getting some shots of the construction.
Willets Point - Shea Stadium (7), and be sure to walk over the Corona Yards
Fordham Road (4), with its proximity to Concourse Yard
Dyckman St (1/9). You'll be OK during the day.
Take picutres of the #1 crossing the Broadway Bridge over the Harlem River at Metro-North's Marble-Hill station, a very short walk from the 225th St station on the #1. That's about as close to a Chicago-type picture as you'll get on NYC Transit. There's also a hospital on the Manhattan side of the bridge with a driveway that can get you level with the El for some pretty interesting pictures.
East Tremont Ave and East 180th St (2/5).
Enough for you? :)
--Mark
Trying to catch up on my subway trains I have a question for you experts out there, many of you who really know your stuff. Here goes. Does the E train ever surface from underground and if so where? I also heard that the R train ,or 4th avenue local actually sees daylight. Is that true and if so where and for how long. Thanks out there for all your responses to my inquiries. It's great to know I'm not the only subway fanatic out there. Something else, I rode the subways in San Francisco, Paris, London, etc, and there is no comparison to New York's. It's the best and most interesting by far.
At least that's my ipinion.
I can't say anything about the E train, but the R never goes above ground - the closest it comes is in the fourth avenue tunnel, at some piont between 95th Street and 59th Street (I'm not sure of the exact location), there is a gap in the tunnel wall through which daylight can be seen. It is on the left side on Manhattan bound trains.
subfan
yeah, on the R between Bay Ridge Ave and 59th st either way, you go over the old Bay Ridge branch of the LIRR and you see daylight. If your going manhattan-bound and look to the right, you can see where the N train comes above ground, while if your on a manhattan bound N and look at 4th ave, you can see the R train tunnel hanging down. If your going bay ridge bound and look right, you see some big buildings.
laterz
blackdevl
I believe you see a park.The last time I worked that line, the opening was boarded up.
Well, it's clear now. It's actually an overpass for 4th Ave, and the train goes with it. Technically, it's above ground, even though it never breaks through to the street. The E, on the other hand, never sees daylight.
-Hank
Hanks...Thanks a lot. Since I've online I had a lot of questions answered.
The E is completely underground.
[The E is completely underground.]
True enough. And there never used to be any glimpses of daylight along its current route. However, during the current construction for the 63rd St. tunnel connection, the roof of the tunnel has been breached and there is (or at least was for a time) a point where you could briefly glimpse daylight. I rode through there some months ago and saw it; perhaps it has been sealed back up by now, I don't know.
Also, the E once ran to Rockaway Park, as did the C at another time, and the R once ran to Astoria. So there is no line in the NYCT system [other than Manhattan shuttles - 42nd St. and the the defunct South Ferry shuttle] which is, and always was, entirely underground.
There were a few routes in days gone by that never saw the light of day,the AA and the BB come to mind as does the original HH.
Larry,RedbirdR33
And ones that never saw the dark of a tunnel: the "MJ" as configured from Bridge-Jay to Metropolitan Avenue. Ditto for the #8 in the Bronx. I'm not counting the numerous pre-war/pre-unification Els that criscrossed the city.
Wayne
And then there was the Ninth Ave. el after it was extended into the Bronx, which -- in the reverse of some lines now -- was in daylight all the time except when it passed through the portal going up to the 167th St.-Jerome Ave. station.
Wayne & J. Lee---Thanks. If you have any more tidbits about old lines or current ones on this subject I'd love to hear from you. I have one that I'm still confused about. When the 4th Avenue local leaves 59th Street, does it actually leave a tunnel and see daylight or is there just a smattering of daylight from the tunnel?
The light actually comes from the side wall openings -- if you look out the right side going to 95th St., you can see a playground right next to the tracks (with the required protective fencing inbetween, of course).
It would be interesting to actaully go to that playground and look into the subway and see what the R looks like when it passes by. Definitely a unique view of the BMT.
J. Lee. Thanks. It doesn't appear to me that I'd see much of anything if I rode the line.
Of course, for BOTH Daylight AND Underground, you can check out Wilson Avenue on the "L". The "Underground" part isn't actually underground, either. It is at ground level, and is covered by the upper level southbound track. The east wall is concrete (block outside I think, but I could be wrong), the west wall abuts the embankment of the NY Connecting railroad, the passageway leading to the exit is level with no steps (except at the very door, there are about five or six). If you look up you can see bits of daylight peeking in through the girders from under the upper-level platform. The upper level offers a panoramic view of Holy Trinity Cemetery, complete with topsy-turvy tombstones and creepy weeping-willow trees.
And (on the lower level)- those TILES! What a rainbow! - 28 colours in all, between the frieze, icons and tablets. Check out the Canarsie Line Mosaics page (in the Line-by-Line) for a peek at this fabulous Squire J. Vickers design. (Click the link above to view it)
Wayne
Wayne Mr. Slant: Thanks for the info. I'll make sure I ride that train when I visit New York in August.
I am presently working the E. It is a busy busy line. When the J train I ride to Jamaica Center goes underground just past 121 St., I don't see any of the world above ground till I'm on my way home from work. I'll relax and sit in the crew room in between trips and bring my lunch from home. There are 2 places where I may see sunshine: one is by the roof opening just south (west) of 36 St. station (if it is open!) and just before the 10 car marker of 23 St. Ely station. I can peek up the stairs and see sunshine basking the stairs behind the agents' booth on 21st St.. We have 26 trains running in the rush. A lot of trains for a short line which takes about 47 minutes in the rush to do a half trip. We are basically on a 5 minute headway during the rush, 4 minutes on occassion. We are supposed to have all R32's, but always have a few R46's, varying in number between 1 and 4 trains. I have a feeling that b/o R46 cars have a priority to be repaired because one b/o (bad-ordered) car brings down 1/2 a train, yet one b/o R32 brings down only 1/5 of a train. Speed? I'll get it up to 45 MPH or more just before the upgrades in the tube, as well as Manhattan bound on the express track as is decends past 65th St. station as it goes into its own right of way apart from the local track. I could never do that kind of speed on the M line. Grade timers clear at high speed in Queens except between Jamaica-Van Wyck and Van Wyck Blvd. (Briarwood). It is far from a glamorous line for railfans, but it gets the job done. There are standees going out to Queens past midnite. Even the homeless like it! (Sigh) Strange sight: go to the Sixth Ave. IND during the midnite hours this Memorial Day Weekend. If you hit it right, you will see an N train on the Brooklyn Bound express track due to Bway BMT service being out between 34th St. and DeKalb, while at the same time see a Queens bound E on the Queens bound local track due to track work at 50th St./8th Ave. When I passed thru just after midnite Sat. AM, I saw a solid CI rebuilt R42 on the N at W.4th St.
Speaking of the homeless, one day last week just before the PM rush, there was a DOA on the train at WTC. A homeless guy. A conductor happened to pass by a sleeping person and noted he was starting to turn blue. Police were called, the area was yellow taped, then the train was sent to W4th St, relayed on the lower level, then sent to a spur track between Canal & Chambers on the A line to await the medical examiner. That train was under police guard for several hours. Don't worry, after the train was released it went right to Jamaica Yard for washing. That day we were down 2 trains for the PM rush. The other one intermitantly lost power after it left Jamaica Center and eventually limped itself into the yard.
For the record, the loss of power was due to B/O 14C finger in the master controller. Contrary to the report, using the T/O bypass will not overcome the condition.
We had similar equipment - #4903 - on our way out to Roosevelt Island just before noon today, all signed up with bright yellow "N"s. The asbestos removal at Lawrence St. must be under way. Lots of different kinds of "N"s - R68, R32, mixed company R40M/R42, solid R42. Didn't see any Slant R40, however. Are they having their beauty rest? I hear there are R40M/R42s on the "Q" too, which would mean fewer Slant R40.
Wayne
You can also see daylight from the R train at the 11th St. cut. That's the switch where the N and R seperate at the Queens end of the 60th St. tube. The best view is from a N/B train.
Just a little nit picking ... the E comes up for air when they get parked in the Jamaica yard, which is on the East end of Flushing Meadow (Worlds' Fair). You can come down the Van Wyke Expressway extention & go right by that yard & see all the Es suning themselves.
Mr t__:^)
The same can be said for the C, which also is only above ground when 'parked' in the yard.
-Hank
I believe a signal bulletin board is needed on this website to be called SigTalk. Maybe the Webmaster, David Primann would entertain this idea.
I'd entertain it if signalling discussion were overwhelming SubTalk. I don't see that it is. I also don't see that the signal discussions that do occur here aren't of general interest that would warrant them being held seperately. I also don't really have the server capacity to host more and more web chat boards.
Just a quick question. Can the shop at SEPTA's 69th st yard do the same overhaul work as NYCTA's Coney Island Overhaul?
Some major overhaul work is not performed at 69 Street Shops.
When a Surburban Kawasaki or Market-Frankford car needs a major overhaul job done to them, SEPTA trucks the car to Woodland Shop. Woodland Shop does alot of overhaul work like COney Island Shop.
I thought I'd heard something along the lines of a beefing up at 69th St to prevent this move, especially with the N-5's arrival? I recall seeing at least one P & W Bullet on sawhorses at Woodland at one time and I'd heard how difficult it was to truck anything besides the double-ended K cars over from 69th St. Any truth to this?
I think somebody was looking for R40 slant #4399? It was the hea car on the L as I boarded it around 8:45pm @ 1Av heading to Brooklyn. It was married to 4398..........
Yes, that was me! Did she treat you to a rocket ride through the 14th Street tube? And yes, she's always been married to #4398, unlike some (R32 and R40) odd couples we know.
Wayne
a rocket ride thru the 14th street tube o the "L"? are you sure with all those slow timers?
a rocket ride thru the 14th street tube on the "L"? are you sure with all those slow timers?
I had a very fast ride through the 14th Street tube aboard #4399. The T/O was playing the GTs and managed to get to 50MPH. He would run right up to one at close to full throttle and change it from amber to green. I was amazed he didn't get tripped.
Wayne
Every time I cross each one of the Lincoln Tunnel tunnel tubes, i notice these small cars operating on what you will call a cat walk. The car only holds one Port Authority employee and transpots him or her to different sections of the tunnel. One day, during a traffic jam, i payed close attention to this car and noticed that it is electric and it has a bar to guide it. But not only that, the shoe or whatever guiding it was arching. So i figured that it was operated by some kind of Third Rail, similar to a trackless trolley but without the poles. Does any body know anything about this? Or am i just seeing things? What is the real answer here?
Yes there is some sort of people mover (if you will) there and I saw it arcing as well. That's all I know though.
Hi all,
Wondering if any cartoonist out there that draws cartoons specifically NYC Subway? How about amateurs like us? I think it'll be great addition to www.nycsubway.org site!
Cheers,
Michael Adler
The best one I've seen is New York Post cartoonist Paul Rigby. I have collected his drawings since I was ten and his R-9 and R-10 drawings were so realistic down to the hot rivets and doule lettered route signs I thought I was there with the muggers and degenerates. You would probably have to get copyright permission from the Post but his arcive drawings of train and fishbowl buses would be worth it.
Yeah, but not many of them are very flattering. I remember when the TA was testing those buses from Curitiba....
-Hank
Hi Michael, I am interested in seeing your cartoons of NYC Subway.
Thank You. Regards, Christophe Agou.
Does anyone know if there is anything special planned for the 95th anniversary of the system this October?
Maybe something like 1994, where they ran the Low-V's on the Times Square shuttle for a day...
Anyone know of any concrete plans?
Thanks,
Barry
Preliminary information that I obtained from the Transit Museum is that something is planned. They will not at this time say what those plans are.
I hope that you are right, Barry.
The train propelled by the two FL9s was back in service today after a
16 day hiatus! By the way, the two locomotives are named "Kevin Blum"
and "Mike O'Conner." Who were these guys?
[The train propelled by the two FL9s was back in service today after a
16 day hiatus! By the way, the two locomotives are named "Kevin Blum"
and "Mike O'Conner." Who were these guys?]
Dunno who Kevin and Mike were, but given the wretched performance of those FL9s it's a safe bet they're spinning in their graves.
They are two of the three passengers who disarmed and subdued Colin Ferguson
Ok, who's Colin Ferguson?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Ok, who's Colin Ferguson?]
He was the person who shot up a train at Merillon Avenue in 1993, with (IIRC) six dead.
On the right side of the R-36's facing the foward side of the train,
there is a thing that looks like a handle. Is it a radio antanna? If it is it's one strange looking antanna. Why would they have one that
looks like that?
Yes, that is a radio antenna. That was the technology in use at the time when those heavy console radios were introduced. They were slipped into a slot in the cab. That slot provided power, antenna and also provided the ability to Control Center to tap into the PA system in the train if needed.
These radios, of course, have been replaced by hand held models.
Do you know that someone was asking the same question about the radio antena last week?? and I post it on the subtalk. Hey fella i think you better look back before you post any thing. This is the second time you post about the radio antenna. Don't repeat again.
Peace Out
David "Mean DJ" Justiniano
Except for OPTO trains which still use these dinosaurs.
I examined the R-36 Roster photos elsewhere on this site and see that the "Handle" referred to is actually a Sinclair Radio Labs Excaliber (Their spelling)slot antenna. The active element is a small fiberglass cased "rung" toward the open end of the slot. it is probably the most common antenna in north american railroad service.
John J.Blair
ARS N2MMM
The same type of antenna is mounted on the roof of the M-1s and M-3s.
I ride through the abandoned Myrtyle Avenue station on the D/Q line on a fairly regular basis, and noticed the following:
On the Northbound side, the station seems to be largely intact - tile in place, platform visible, except where storeage sheds have been constructed - the round support columns with their decorative molding at the top and bottom (kind of like what's in some of the older IRT stations) are still there, sporting old-style black-on white signs reading "Myrtle Avenue"
On the Southbound side, the station seems to have been located just where the southbound southside bridge track rises between the DeKalb bypass and DeKalb Bridge tracks. All that seems to be left is the wall tile on the curtain wall between the rising track and the bypass track - apparently, the old "local" track was where the rising track now is, and the platform was where the tracks for the northside southbound bridge trains that stop at DeKalb (D/Q) now are. No trace of the old southbound platform was visible - not even back wall tiles.
Now, the question - does anyone have any discriptions of the old station when it ws open? Was there any design in the tiles - a name tablet or stripe, a la DeKalb? While the tile is in place for parts of the station, it is nearly impossible to see any detail in the low light, especially since it is covered with graffiti. If anyone has pictures, that would be even better. Thank you.
subfan
The southbound platform was removed when the entire DeKalb junction was rebuilt. And, yes, the old local track was where the rising track is now. This is an educated guess, but I would imagine that the old Myrtle Ave. station had similar tilework to DeKalb and possibly 36th St. Perhaps one of our BMT experts who remember those days could shed some light on this.
Yes, the Myrtle Avenue station had similar mosaics to De Kalb, Pacific, 36th, 59th, and 9th Avenue Lower Level. Not sure of exactly what colors, but a large tablet within the frieze reading "MYRTLE AVE"
and the "globes" every so many feet (like the others mentioned above)
were present. Might be interesting to go down there some day to check this out.
Wayne
Yesterday, I took my sons on a trip aboard PATH. We went out to Newark. Along the way I ran nto an old aquaintance of mine. He's a PATH engineer now. We talked and as we rode along I was reminded of just how badly things have degenerated here on the subway.
On the trip, we reached speeds close to 60 MPH. The train barely lost speed going up hill. When we stopped, it was with real retardation.
Now as I'm sure most of you know, PATH uses signals, air brakes and propusion, very similar to ours. Thing is, they are regulated by an outside agency. An impartial one, with governing authority. No funny business there.
We should be shamed into hiding. For allowing the bean counters who micromanage the subway, to turn our once great system into a lethargic nightmare.
Click on my next post for an idea to fix this, that TA doesn't want to hear.
[Yesterday, I took my sons on a trip aboard PATH. We went out to Newark. Along the way I ran nto an old aquaintance of mine. He's a PATH engineer now. We talked and as we rode along I was reminded of just how badly things have degenerated here on the subway.
On the trip, we reached speeds close to 60 MPH. The train barely lost speed going up hill. When we stopped, it was with real retardation.]
Not to mention the fact that PATH cars have emergency intercoms, and unscratched windows, among other things.
Yes, the may have unscratched windows, but they are cheap plastic and are wobbly. In TA land, the vandals will knock them out in a heartbeat, then the train will have to go out of service. Emergency intercoms, 99% of the calls would be unnecessary causing a delay to the service as each one is checked out by the crew. Again the TA has a tremendous vandalism problem on certain lines with police showing up after the fact. Remember the J line Customer Alarm Train?
PATH is, indeed, a terrific system, one of the hidden transit gems in the U.S. Having just served on the most recent PATH Patron Advisory Council, I was impressed with the PATH operation in general and, more specifically, with the various Department heads and others who addressed our group. But while PATH is great for what it is, it is not entirely fair to compare PATH with the TA in all respects. There are only a few places on PATH where trains can achieve the speed you mentioned. In the older parts of the tunnels, the average New Yorker would think PATH is downright slow. I'll bet that on average PATH trains travel at slower speeds than the average NYC subway train. Does anybody have any comparative figures?
I totally agree with you. PATH is a great system. They had air conditioned cars long before the IRT Division did and PATH cars have similar dimensions to that of the IRT. Yes, speeds are slow in the tunnels with the cool curves and #4 turnouts. Turnout speeds are at 8mph. Peter Furkey is the Superintendent of Signals and he and his people do an excellent job. Pete refers to PATH aa "A trolley in sewer pipe".
Remember that PATH opened in February of 1908 and construction started in 1878. It will last forever including the Caissons tubes and Hudson River crossings.
I take off my hat for PATH and the H & M Railroad.
"#4 turnout" ? what is a #4 turnout? I think we all know what a turnout is, but what distinguishes a #4 turnout from all other turnouts?
You ask what a #4 turnout is. Turnouts are identified by number. The lower the turnout number, the lower the turnout speed (switch reverse). The lower the turnout number, the greater the turnout angle. The lower the turnout number, the short the length of switch points (from point of switch to heel block). Below is an example of turnout speed for number of turnouts per AREA standards:
#4 8mph
#6 10mph
#8 15mph
#10 25mph
#15 37mph
#20 50mph
Do you get it now?
I believe it is the ratio of the diverging route to the mainline, the same theory (but not method) used for grades.
-Hank
How many collisions has PATH had since 1986?
Now ask how many collisions has the TA Hall of Shame had?
Bean counters reduced the training time, braking distance and motor amperage, all in the name of saving money. Too bad they couldn't reduce their salaries in the name of safety.
I can certainly see how you guys up there in New York land are frustrated with what has happened to probably one of the greatest subway systems in the world. Especially in regrads to speed. I have to say I am amazed how ridership is at an all time high yet the trains are as slow as mules. When myself and Thurston were on the F train going to Coney Island he informed that the best our train was doing was about 35mph. Just a thought is there any way that the general public could be informed of what is going on with there subway trains? Maybe if there was public outcry to speed things up maybe something would happen. Or would that be a complete waste of time?
Don't forget one of the reasons speeds are as slow as they are is because beyond a certain speed a train which has been tripped by a red signal will not stop quickly enough to avoid colliding with the train in front of it. That was what happened on the Williamsburg Bridge and that is why trains move so slowly. If the TA simply shrugged and did nothing, you'd better believe the papers would jump down their throats. They already received a lot of criticism for the age of the current signal system and how it was designed for the much slower, older cars of the past. Hence the current speed restrictions.
Dont forget: PATH is a much smaller system and also complies with FRA regs which we do not! I ride the lead car on PATH at all times. I enjoy the fan seat when I can grab it! I see headways on PATH, especially entering Grove Street from Exchance Place that make me nervous! There are only two red Z signals between us and the JSQ train ahead! The train is so close you can read the car number from the rear and read the end destination sign! Such short headways, Help me, Steve!, I am sure would not be used on the NYCT system.
From what I have read, the PATH signal system is also old and does need upgrade. Many days when I return home middays I see PATH trains held up by signal maintainers and many signals display conflicting aspects to the point where the engineer radios Control who gives permission to key by. The process is repeated at the next signal (while the conductor is standing at the front storm door calling out signals to the engineer. The newest signl in PATh dates back to 1994 when the JSQ signal bridges were completed.
DISCLAIMER" While based on personal observation, this post is personal opinion and not that of PATH, the Port Authority, NYCT, or MTA. I am not an employee of the PATH or the Port Authority. I am an employee of the NYCT who rides PATH on a daily basis.
PATH operates on as little as 90-second headways in the rush hours on the World Trade Center lines. The signal system dates from the 1960's - I assume the Port Authority had to replace the signal system previously used by the bankrupt H & M when the PA took over the line then. According to PATH signal engineers, the system is well maintained and repaired/replaced as necessary. Following the Willy B accident some years back, PATH did field tests for stopping distances (just like the TA), so you should feel safe that PATH trains can stop on time.
PATH's signal system provides 2 block protection,as does NYCT's. In the area you mention, the blocks are shorter allowing trains to approach one another closely,but still with signal protection.Dougherty's description of the NYCT signal system in "Tracks of the NYC Subway" is pretty much applicable to PATH as well.
Sid from NJ's comments are right on the mark. Virtually the entire system has been replaced and/or upgraded. There's talk of converting to a CBTC type system;I think they're waiting to see what NYCT's experiences are before making a commitment.
I'm not sure what you mean by "conflicting signals";this shouldn't happen with any signal system. If you can provide specifics I'll check with my sources to find out what happened.
One of the most interesting signals on te whole PATH system is at the Harrison Mateinance Yard. There is a platform on the Jouranl Square bound side which is mainly used by Employees at the Harrison Yard. At this Platform is a Hand opperated signal that Alerts the next up comming train that there are people waiting for a train. At first I thought it was just the radio dispatch alerting the crew of a pick up at Harrison but one day while riding up front in a PATH train I noticed One odd white signal which before never had been on then the train stopped at the employee platform. If anyone whats to see this themselves the Best time is around 5 to 6 pm. Usually when people are heading home.
there is another such signal used for "C Yard" (located near the tunnel portal.)
We have all read or written posts on the subject of slowing down the equipment. Many of us also joined in on the discussions concerning the air brake modifications. The ones that led to the topic of signal problems.
I don't want to get into those topics again. There's nothing we really can do at this point.
However, I for one am sick and tired of hurtling down the 60th Street river tube at 55 MPH, only to go up at 19 MPH.
I have written several posts on this subject as well.
While enjoying the long downhill, and the consequent drawn out up hill, I have had the opportunity to think of a possible solution. One that would preserve the 45 MPH top speed the TA apparently desires, and would help trains to go up hills at a reasonable speed.
This would reqiure little in the way of expenditure (important if the TA will consider it) and can be done without major changes to the equipment. It would not comprimise safety.
However, because it would increase power consumption, I doubt they will want hear it.
Care to share the idea?
We have all read or written posts on the subject of slowing down the equipment. Many of us also joined in on the discussions concerning the air brake modifications. The ones that led to the topic of signal problems.
I don't want to get into those topics again. There's nothing we really can do at this point.
However, I for one am sick and tired of hurtling down the 60th Street river tube at 55 MPH, only to go up at 19 MPH.
I have written several posts on this subject as well.
While enjoying the long downhill, and the consequent drawn out up hill, I have had the opportunity to think of a possible solution. One that would preserve the 45 MPH top speed the TA apparently desires, and would help trains to go up hills at a reasonable speed.
This would reqiure little in the way of expenditure (important if the TA will consider it) and can be done without major changes to the equipment. It would not comprimise safety.
However, because it would increase power consumption, I doubt they will want to hear it. And because it also might possibly go against their long range plans for securing funding. To scare the fed into thinking there is a need for more funding for signal repairs, (the TA's own modifications to the brakes were actually the cause here)
the TA may use the argument that because of signal problems they can't run at full speed. If the trains were to resume some of that speed, that takes away their argument. I know it's sounds cynical, and almost like I'm Oliver Stone, but that's actually how those people think!
The field shunt coils, which provide the final stages of acceleration were deleted from that process. This way top speed and top end acceleration is cut. Those coils are stiil there, used also for the initial stages of acceleration.
All NYC subway cars that they plan on keeping (sorry Redbird) are equipped with speedometers. I don't know the details of how they operate, but I have seen that they are electronic.
We have all read or written posts on the subject of
slowing down the equipment. Many of us also joined in on
the discussions concerning the air brake modifications.
The ones that led to the topic of signal problems.
I don't want to get into those topics again. There's
nothing we really can do at this point.
However, I for one am sick and tired of hurtling down the
60th Street river tube at 55 MPH, only to go up at 19 MPH.
I have written several posts on this subject as well.
While enjoying the long downhill, and the consequent drawn
out up hill, I have had the opportunity to think of a
possible solution. One that would preserve the 45 MPH top
speed the TA apparently desires, and would help trains to
go up hills at a reasonable speed.
This would reqiure little in the way of expenditure
(important if the TA will consider it) and can be done
without major changes to the equipment. It would not
comprimise safety.
However, because it would increase power consumption, I
doubt they will want to hear it. And because it also might
possibly go against their long range plans for securing
funding. To scare the fed into thinking there is a need
for more funding for signal repairs, (the TA's own
modifications to the brakes were actually the cause here)
the TA may use the argument that because of signal
problems they can't run at full speed. If the trains were
to resume some of that speed, that takes away their
argument. I know it's sounds cynical, and almost like I'm
Oliver Stone, but that's actually how those people think!
The field shunt coils, which provide the final stages of
acceleration were deleted from that process. This way top
speed and top end acceleration is cut. Those coils are
still there, used also for the initial stages of
acceleration.
All NYC subway cars that they plan on keeping (sorry
Redbird) are equipped with speedometers. I don't know all
the details of how they operate, but I have seen that they
are electronic.
When the side doors are closed and locked, and after the
Conductor turns his key, a relay (sort of a remote control
switch) closes, and allows power to be fed to the Master
Controller. If the doors are open or other such situation,
power is not fed to the Master Controller, and the train
cannot take power. That's not to say it cannot move, it
still can: down hills and the like.
OK, my proposal is that the speedometer when reading above
45 MPH, open the relay that feeds power to the master
controller. It well then coast untill the speed falls
below 45. So that when a train is on flat track, as it
speeds along, it cannot exceed 45. Of course down hills
are excepted. But we're already doing more than 45 there
any way.
BUT, now with the motor fields shunted again, and the
equipment at full (still not enough, but that's another
argument) power, a train can crest a hill at a reasonable
speed.
TA keeps the speed where they feel it's safe. We can have
less lethargic trains. A win/win situation if you asked
me.
I sent this in to the TA's employee suggestion program. In
detail I explained it. I enclosed electrical drawings, and
even a list of materiels, and an estimite of cost. That
was in March, and I still haven't heard anything yet.
But I'm not surprised, and I don't expect to hear
anything. I suspect they would rather ignore the problem,
than fix it. All they care about is saving money, and this
proposal doesn't.
I would love to hear all your comments. Especially if it's
technical. Jeff, Gerry, Steve?
Thanks all, Erik
Well, even assuming you could get some kind of proportional signal
out of the speedometer box or modify it to give an overspeed
signal, there would be the issue of bypass. What happens when
the speedometer is malfunctioning? Add a bypass switch? Or
since you want to go into the side door relay, would the side
door bypass also bypass this governor?
I'm not entirely convinced that the lack of field shunt position
is causing this sluggish uphill performance.
Well, Jeff, what's causing it then? I already think the cars are under powered, but taking away feild shunting at full power was only making them worse.
I'm only thinking of using the relay, the bypass wouldn't affect it. Should the speedo fail, there would be a cut out switch, like on RR equipment. Sealed of cousre. Break the seal on Command center's permission.
Like I said, I don't know the details of how those speedo's work. I guess the device would need an ouput to the relay at 45 MPH.
The lack of shunting probably doesn't affect uphill performance much since you trade power for speed when you shunt fields. I picked this thread up somewhere in the middle, but knowing that the R-44,46 and 68 all have similar motors and weights and none have field shunts activated, there is only one factor left - gear ratio. If you are on a 68 which stops for a signal on a steep upgrade such as on the Manhattan Bridge or a tunnel, note if the train starts with plenty of pep and then runs out of power as speed picks up. If the train has the pep starting, the gear ratio is responsible. If there is no pep whatsoever, blame the horsepower-weight ratio. If a train (certainly not 68's) starts sluggish and gains as it accellerates the gear ratio is probably working the other way. Field Shunting will get up speed on downhill and flat runs but won't do much on the uphill unless balancing speed is reached before the grade gets steep.
I think that field shunting does affect top end power and speed. As the field shunts were originally controlled by the energy conservation (6 Wire) circuit, I conducted my own tests as a T/O. On my typical R-44, that is after overhaul with the new gearboxes, leaving say up those steep grades into 190 Street, they would top off at 18 M.P.H. in an energized E.C. modein third point. When I changed the switch to the exp. position the ammeter would go from 125 amps or so to 300+ with the top speed in parallel about 28 to 30 at the time I entered the station on the same grade. On the southbound Rockaway Flats today the same R-44 would top at 43 to 45 where just after overhaul we had an easy 40 just at the Patterson Blvd grade crossing just 1400 feet east of the North Channel ridge with speedometer readings of 53 to 56 a common occurance. The trains did have MUCH more power then but they don't now. Eric please correct me if im wrong but on your last cab ride over the Manhattan Bridge with me in the days didn't we hit 30 or 32 MPH on the upgrade? What can the TA give you now on the world's slowest trainride?
Well, those empirical data, assuming they were collected
accuractely, are consistent with the train
having reached balancing speed at full field strength.
Don't forget though that 300 amps at reduced field does not
translate into the same kind of tractive effort as the
same amperage at full field. Without looking at the motor
curves I can't say more.
Yes torque and Horsepower are two different things, thanks for bringing that into the discussion.
Harold, I remember the uphill speeds being about twice what they are now. Hence my suggestion. But all told, the equipment is still under powered. I figure 500 H.P. is more like it. The gear ratio is fine, considering the loads, and speeds reqired. Limiting speed is the Motorman's job. Not the fieild shunt coil's. Name one other operation that does this. NONE. They all have an ample supply of H.P., and control speed with the throttle or controller. Cab signals in some, but never by emasclating the equipment.
I agree with you on some points, but the effect of shunting is a trade of power for speed. They would have little effect on an uphill as Jeff & I stated unless the train already had reached balancing speed.
Another possible performance impact is cutting the accelleration current, holding the car in the resistance points longer, and slowing down accelleration - especially on grades. It could depending on which rate adjustment was altered, also affect the braking rate in dynamics, typical of the 'dumbing-down' described.
Steve - Have there been any changes in this area?
Performance was always a trademark of the NYC subways, and it is sad to hear about the negative changes. Boston disabled the shunts on its PCC cars in later years but they never changed the rates, they would still take off like a shot, car 3127, which I work on at Seashore, is typical of this - it still has plenty of power, it just balances out at a slower speed than 2709 from Philadelphia.
Gerry
Here are some fun facts about horsepower which are really a
sidetrack discussion at this point:
horsepower is a measure of both power consumption and production.
A traction motor consumes electrical power, which is
voltage times current, and produces mechanical power,
which is torque times rpm. Neglecting mechanical losses in
gearing, etc., that same mechanical power appears at the wheels
in the form of tractive effort vs speed. The gearing determines
the relationship: increase the gear reduction ratio and you
get more tractive effort but lower speed for the same motor
power output.
When we say a traction motor is a 115 HP motor, that is based
on the so-called one-hour test. It means that the motor can
output the rated mechanical horsepower for one continuous hour
with a temperature rise of less than or equal to ....umm....
help me out here Gerry....75 degrees celsius, I think.
In actuality, though, the traction motor puts out a wide range
of horsepower. During starting and acceleration, it is common
for the motor to put out double the nameplate power. Since this
is only a brief surge, it's OK. Most of the life of a traction
motor is spent coasting, standing still, or running at balancing
speed. In the latter case, the horsepower output is usually much
lower than nominal, except in cases of high tractive loads (such
as ascending a long upgrade).
The torque produced by a DC motor is the armature current times
the field strength. Additionally, the counter-EMF is speed (RPM) times field strength. Although the field strength is sometimes,
in a rough approximation, taken as proportional to field current,
it is in fact nonlinear because of the saturation properties of
iron.
In NYCTS traction controls, the field shunt positions are 25%
50% and 75% weak field. I'm not certain whether that means
the field strength is 25, 50 and 75% of full strength, or that
refers to the field current. I suspect the latter.
When the motors have reached balancing speed, a small amount
of current flows which is just enough to maintain speed, i.e.
it produces torque which equals the load due to air resistance,
curve resistance, mechanical losses and of course grade.
Current is also (600-E)/R, taking 600 as the nominal trolley
voltage, R is the parasitic resistance of the field and
armature windings (about 0.06 ohms per motor on SMEE equipment),
and E is the counter-EMF which is unfortunately related to
both speed and (non-linearly) to current. That makes the equation
a little hard to solve in algebraic form, so the best thing to
do is look at the characteristic curves of the motor in question.
Shunting the field diverts a portion of the field current around
the field coils. This means less field strength for the same
value of motor current, and therefore less counter-EMF. Motor
current increases. This means an increase in torque, but since
the field strength is weakened, a motor operating at say 200 amps
with shunted fields does not produce as much torque as with full
fields. The equation will find a new balancing point. Assuming
the load remains the same, this point will be at a higher speed,
with a higher motor current and weaker field strength as compared
with the full-field balancing point.
Jeff's explanation shows why the shunts will have little effect climbing the steep grade, the loss of torque as the shunts engage generates a very small accelleration rate, meanwhile the current is boosted, and the limit relay holds up any further shunting until it drops. The increase in speed under this condition may not be noticeable, unless the train had balanced out before hitting the grade, thus allwing some shunt induced speed before the train starts climbing.
Find me a grade so steep that the current doesn't drop. Unless you have three dead motors in the train, it will accelerate up any hill in the NYCTS. The train does not have to have reached balance speed for feild shunting to be felt. Heck, it doesn't even have to be in full parallel yet.
I'm not trying to offend, so please don't be. But please, you guys have to stop with the math and the formulas and the text book answers. In the real world feild shunting the motors made a difference. As Harry pointed out yesterday, a train at a station at the bottom of hill would only make around 18 or 22 miles per hour. With the field coils in, it will do 30.
Acceleration now phases into full parallel at 18 or so. Full power acceleration continues at a reduced rate till about 35. 40 is possible with distance or grade. Combine the two and 45 to 50 can be achieved. River tubes and the long express runs are where this takes place.
If the feild coils are in, then acceleration continues with the three points of shunting, at about 20, 24 and the last step at 27. From there amperage continues to fall to the balancing point Jeff explained, 110 amps at 53 to 57 MPH. That depends on whether the equipment has new(thick) or trued (thin) wheels. A train with all new wheels will obviously go the fastest.
Trust me on this stuff gentlemen. I do not sit at a desk and read manuals, nor contemplate theory. I actually did track test. And today I ride trains through river tubes, carefully watching motor ammeters and listening to the control group.
Let me relate a historical account which is fresh in my mind
because I just finished an article on the subject. I'm sure you
all know who Frank J. Sprague was and what he accomplished.
You may not know that Sprague worked briefly for Thomas Edison.
Before Sprague got to Edison's labs, they did everything empirically.
In other words, by trial and error. If they were building a generator
they'd try winding 4000 turns for the field. Oops, that doesn't
generate. Try 8000. Ooops, it caught fire. OK, how about 6000, etc.
Sprague got them to understand that by taking a little time to
understand the theory behind their efforts, they could calculate
the optimum point and save a lot of expensive guesswork.
There's a place for theory and a place for practice. A good
engineer understands both. A good engineer isn't necessarily
one who has a degree. Some of the best engineers I've worked with
don't have any paper.
When I was in the TA's Car Equipment Engineering department, they
used to laugh at me because I was the only one in my group who
could tell them what car class a particular car number was.
I believed in talking to the people in the field: train crews,
RCIs, shop personnel. There was a large variance in people's
understanding of their job. Most did their job very well, but
had no knowledge of or interest in the underlying principles of
operation. The data I could collect from the field were always
helpful, but had to be weighed carefully in terms of the observer's
bias and ability to collect it accurately. But I would never
discount an observation simply because the textbook said it was wrong.
And Erik, yes, feel free to incorporate my suggestion.
through the grape vine i've heard the possibility of speeding up our subway cars, its been mentioned at a few terminals. Will Car Equipment actually be increasing the subway fleets speed after slowing them down? i'm not too certain they will...
Actually, on the majority of the fleet, the cars with GE propulsion equipment, the slowing process can be un-done with the snip of one wire. On the E-Cams, it requires re-writing the E-Proms in the controller. However, nothing will be done until the engineering dept. OKs the change. I trust that I'll read about it sometime after I am retired.
Erik,
I like the concept but I have two reservations. One I'd need to do some research on. To answer one reservation expressed earlier, first, the speedometers on all NYCT cars have RS232 ports for downloading data. They are currently not in use but can be used to interface with your suggestion. The one area which concerns me is the interface with the door circuit. Traditionally, NYCT has not permitted any outside interface with door or indication circuits because of the potential for introducing a means to a single point failure. In your suggestion (and I have not yet seen a circuit) I would be concerned about back-feeding the 21 wire. Again, the idea has merit but I'd really need to look at it more closely before I'd endorse it.
I have a job at Continental this week, should I drop my drawings in to inter office? Or woud you like me to drop in and we could discuss it with those drawings that are on the wall down on the shop floor.
What about a seperate relay that cuts power from the CC1 breaker?
Having just spent an hour or so freeze-framing 'The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3', not only is the car across the platform at Grand Central on the downtown local track 7339, but 7339 is also the car that is in the lead on Pelham 1-2-3 when it is taken! I swear, watch that movie long enough, and you see loads of factual and continuity errors, just with the car numbers!
-Hank
I thought it was because it seemed to be loading on the wrong side if it was going southbound! Do they think we are idiots? How about that flaky thing they rigged up to make the train run by itself? Oh , well
I stiil enjoyed the movie even if they had the "N" train running on the "B" -West End tracks.
Chuck Greene
Not only that, but did you notice the car which 7339 was coupled to? It sure looked like an R-10 to me. #2973, if I remember correctly.
Here's something that's crossed my mind.
Leaving out the Archer Avenue and 63rd Street lines, How long did it take to build what is now the New York subway. And, when was each individual network finished, minus the two afforementioned lines?
I'd say around 1967 when the Sixth Avenue/Chrystie St. stuff went down.
If R-42's were assigned to the E-Train today, what would the two destination signs on the side of the car read? Remember, the cars were rebuilt with all new destination signs with new readings and the E-Train now goes to Jamaica Center. Thank you!
Jamaica Center-Parsons/Archer and World Trade Center, Manhattan.
It would still say Jamaica Center. Doen't the J goes to Jamaica Center? I believe the J use R42's........
It would still say Jamaica Center. Doesn't the J goes to Jamaica Center? I believe the J use R42's........
The signs would read: 'Jamaica Center' on top, 'World Trade Center' on the bottom, with a white 'E' on a dark blue circle for the front sign and side route sign. All overhauled equipment contains destination signs for all current terminals (and some that are completely unnecessary).
Here is another reason to order your Metrocard online, FREE admission to the Subway Musuem. The handy folder with FAQ's also says you can turn it in for one free admission to the Museum.
No shipping charges if you select standard USPS 1st Class mail, you just pay the face value of the card. Can't beat the free admission since they will be closing the Museum for renovation!!
But I am already a member of the Museum so I get free admission anyway.
As a certified disabled person (i.e. in possession of a Reduced-Fare MetroCard), I find it very disconcerting that the new website [http://metrocard.citysearch.com] does not allow for ordering any form of discounted fares for persons such as myself. For those not in the know, the Chicago Transit Authority website [http://www.yourcta.com] allows for online purchases of their various Transit Cards and unlimited-ride passes. What makes Chicago different from NYC is that in Chicago, holders of the Reduced Fare Permit (the Chicagoland equivalent to the NYC "RFM") can order their fares online, but senior and disabled riders in NYC who have RFM's cannot do the same. I surmise that this is due to the fact that senior and disabled riders in Chicago must first validate their Reduced-Fare 30-Day Pass at the bus farecard reader/train station turnstile THEN validate their RFP (the CTA website allows reduced-fare orders because such people who are entitled to them must state their RFP ID # when making their orders).
As for Reduced-Fare MetroCards programme, 7-Day and 30-Day Unlimited-Ride fares are stored directly on the RFM itself (the Reduced Fare permit in the Chicagoland area can only store cash fares and NOT unlimited-ride passes, which also applies to their regular adult-fare Transit Card).
Theoretically, you can order your fares online. Just buy a standard MetroCard and have the money transferred by a Station Agent. The only reason I see for doing this is to use a credit card instead of cash if you don't have access to an MVM.
The NYC MVM will add money to an existing RFM. When the card is inserted it will read as an RFM and while the money may be "$10.00" the value will be greater since it is an RFM. AN existing NYC RFM can have both time and Value (Money). The Time will be used first and then the money. Also, the RFM can have two time values stored if it is used once before adding more time. The first time period will be used first.(If they have 7 days on the card and then add 30 days the card would read as "7 days" renewed" but the 30 days will begin after the 7 are used. Does this help?
Yes, but I already knew that. *SMILES* I often add extra time to my RFM before the current time is allowed to expire.
The TA has a pilot project going on which turns your RFM into a kind of E-Z-Pass, i.e. you create the RFM at a TA site once (so you get your photo on it), give them you credit card and you get billed for your trips. In the initial project you paid later, the current one the TA takes money up front, then as you start running it down they take some more. There are/were two groups: LIRR sr/disabled, local sr/disabled (we've seen clergy in this second group).
P.S. Apparently the Chicago card isn't a photo ID ?
P.P.S. the TA project was a Value card vs. Unlimited
Disclaimer: Eye don't work for the TA or NYC-DOT
Mr t__:^)
Thurston: Chicago's RFP (Reduced-Fare Permit) can store money for fares, but cannot in itself be used for unlimited-rides -- the 30-Day Reduced-Fare Pass must be purchased separately and is used IN CONJUNCTION WITH the RFP (perhaps that can be a reason why Chicago's website allows RFP owners to purchase their reduced fares online). The RFM (Reduced-Fare MetroCard) can not only store value for fares, but can be programmed to act either a 7-Day or 30-Day Unlimited-Ride MetroCard (unfortunately, this precludes my ability to be able to pre-purchase my fares online, as the MTA does not require that RFM users make use of a separate farecard for the Unlimited-Ride pass)..
Andres, Thanks for the addl. detail. As many of you have figured out I'm very interested in understanding exactly what's avail. to the public & how they all work because of my job here.
Unfortunately the TA doesn't always tell us USERS how every piece works :-(
I'll mention two recent examples:
- One of our driver trainers asked a question about a Student card, the kid was trying to use it more then twice a day. (there are four different types of student cards (3 green & one orange) & the Sr/Disabled have four different colors on the photo side)
- Several customers form LI called us to complain about being double charged when they TRANSFERED from the N4 to Q25 & Q65. The double charge was correct because the customers needed to walk a couple of blocks to get the transfer with their value card.
As I've said before, I think the TA has made this system much more complex then it needs to be !
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or NYC-DOT
Mr t__:^)
So your a member? Can you bring guest for free?? Then buy your card online and get a guest in free!!
NYCT was foolish when they replaced the 1922 GE turnstiles from the Lexington Avenue IRT stations like Fulton and Wall Streets with the new high entrance Cubic Western turnstiles. The "Crashing Behemoth" turnstiles will last forever and could have been retrofitted with a swipe reader to operated these ancient solenoids to unlock the turnstile.
Those old Iron Maidens were known to eat people, and were VERY maintainence intensive. The new version, with its servos and motors and relays functions as an entrance AND an exit, and is a big improvement on the old iron maidens. What's with this fear of technology I'm picking up from everyone?
-Hank
per official training info:
first phase statiosn to include:
Bowling Green, Grand Central, Penn Station, Rockefeller center,77th st, Grand Street, 149/3 av, 167 (not known if IRT or IND),WTC(not known if chambers A or WTC-E but I expect it will be next to the booth by the WTC Mall entrance-I saw workers installing new conduit today), Jay Street, Sheepshead Bay, Brighton Beach, 179th st, main Street.
After that 55 per month through the year 2000. At NO time will a station be without a station agent. They will have a choice of 4 languages out a group of 8 with English and Spanish at all mahines. Other languages include: French, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Russian.
There will also be station agent(s) outside the booth to assist with machine use. I assure you, even at machine stations, the booth will remain open and the station agent will continue to sell cards and tokens just like ATMs diud not abolish human tellers at the bank.
The station agent will not have keys to the machine and will not feed the machine in any way. Credit cards wont jam since it is a dip. A Business reply envelope will be given if you MetroCard is eaten on a refill.
59th has French and Italian with Chinese and Russian at 68th
I would also expect there to be Russian at Brighton Beach and the applicable Eastern language at Main Street.
Will these sell $4 day passes as originally planned?
Wayne
ALL "MVM's" will sell ALL types of MetroCard fares, even the US$4.00 MetroCard Fun Pass.
I live near the Main Street-Flushing Station, so that will be a majour relief for me every time I need to renew mu Reduced-Fare MetroCard for yet another 7-Day or 30-Day Unlimited-Ride MetroCard (whichever one I can afford upon renewal time). :-) HEHEHE!
When can I expect to see the machines at these new stations?
By the end of this year (1999) according to my information. It did not give specific dates for a specific station.
The machine will also sell one ride MetroCards.
The information did not say what additional statioons will be addfed in 2000 or after.
I am now going to personal opinion:
the information did say "to relieve the line at busy station service booths". Based on that I'd say look for machine(s) at busy stations like West 4, Times Square (After renovation), 86/Lex, 125/Lex, Church/Nostrand, Stillwell,DeKalb (Flatbush), Nevins, ATlantic/Pacific (After renovation)etc.
*******
DISCLAIMER: I did not day the above stations would get machines. The above information unless stated is my personal opinion and not the opinion of the MTA or NYCT.******
Today I boarded the fourth car of the Q train (R40) at 57th Street (just made it) and went to move to the front car, but discovered that the storm door was locked. Okay, I'll move to the next car at Rockefeller Center. But the storm door in that car was locked too!
In fact, I think all the storm doors were locked!
I hope it's not what I think it is, but I have a nagging feeling in the pit of my stomach that one of my worst nightmares is finally becoming a reality . . . the day that every storm door on every subway car in the NYCTA fleet is locked.
SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!
BTW - Saw that 20-year old map at 57th Street. I can't beleive it's STILL there -- right in front of the token booth too!
You'd think SOMEBODY would have noticed by now that one map in the station is a bit different from the others . . .
I saw two tourists studying that map and told them to use the map on the other side because the one they were looking at was "23 years old and hopelessly inaccurate."
I was about to bring this to the attention of the Railroad Clerk (oh, excuse me, I meant STATION AGENT! ;-), but decided not to. I just want to see how much longer that map is going to be there until one night, after 1:00 AM, an off-duty TA employee is walking along the concourse on his way home after partying at Planet Hollywood. He spots something weird about the map in one of the displays. He does a double-take, and squints. Yes, there is definately something strange about that map. He walks over to it and blinks a few times. "Was it all the beers? Was it the buffalo wings? Maybe it was the cheezy after-shave in the men's room. Hmmm . . . no, I don't think so. This map's got to go!"
There is no new policy. Either the person who made up the train doesn't know the difference between a 60 and 75 foot car (rookie!) or some kid had a key and locked the doors as a "joke."
This would be dangerous on the R40 since the crew can not unlock the storm doors automagicly if their is an accident. All 75ft cars with a flip of a switch can unlock end doors from any operating position.
When the movie Class of '44 was being filmed, a mezzanine on a Southern Division BMT station was restored to the style and hue of the 1940s. It's in the scene where Hermie and Oscy bid farewell to Benji right after the (empty) Triplex train is seen sweeping by. Too bad there's no scene of Benji boarding that train. Anyway, Brian Cudahy wrote in the original edition of Under the Sidewalks of New York that regular passengers who didn't remember the fixtures and paint scheme shrugged them off, but that "old timers were observed entering the station, looking around, and feeling uneasy, almost as if they had stepped into some sort of twilight zone."
I have worked the Q before and they do lock the doors on the end cars of a few intervals that leave BBC between 1430 and 1500hrs. This is due to the school kids. Last year around this time some kid was killed fooling around between cars.This is an unwritten policy since then.I am working the Q today out of 21st I'll see if this is still happening.
The final North bound Q intervals of the evening do this as well. They lay up their trains at Second Av. station. To prevent intrusion on to the train while it is unattended, we lock all the doors.
Lazy as we are, we don't want to do it there, no we want to get home as quick as possible. So I as Conductor (and others) lock the end doors en route. Between express stops, or while crossing the Manhattan Bridge.
I have noticed something after taking the line for 2 years. An E or F of R-46 usually runs faster and less shaky/noisy than E of R-32.
Actually R-32 accelerate faster than the R-46.
my experience in operating both r-32 and r-46 32's accelerate faster but true they can be shaky/niose at times. 46's faster over 44's
my experience in operating both r-32 and r-46 32's accelerate faster but true they can be shaky/noisy at times. 46's faster over 44's
On Monday, May 24. I rode a Q of R-40M/42. Since when was the R-40M/42 assigned to the Q. Was it because they need more trains due to the re-open of the 63 St sect? Then where did those R-32 go? Plus, in the front and between cars of the R-42, the sign was a standard orange white letter Q but on the side signs, it was a yellow black letter Q.
If this is true. THANK GOODNESS!! I am not a true slant fan I like to see also a "melting pot on the Q"
The N and Q lines are using R40M's and R42's that used to be assigned to the M line. With the WB closing M service has been reduced and those extra cars assigned to the N and Q. The R32's on the N and Q were moved over to the A and E lines to provide extra service for the WB closing as well. Everything should go back to normal when the bridge opens.
Actually, the R32s on the N were sent to the E only(phase 2 cars),while the E sent other R32 cars(phase 1) to the A line.There is no guarantee of R42 cars coming back to the BMT eastern division.Already in the eastern division,cars 4384-99 are present.Coney Island doesn't really like the slant R40s.
They should just swap all the 32's on the IND (A, C, E) for all the slant 40's, on the BMT. The 32's were originally BMT, and the 40's IND. But would Queens riders object to the 40's, for any reason?
Technically, all 60-foot SMEE cars were designed for use on the IND and BMT. The R-32s began their careers on the BMT, where they replaced the Triplexes (bad move!) and remaining BMT standards on the Southern Division. Interestingly enough, I considered the R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s as BMT cars back in 1967, since they were all assigned to the Southern Division. When the Chrystie St. connection opened, they began to appear on IND lines; the R-32s were used on the AA, B, and D lines at first.
The slant R-40s were initially assigned to the E and F lines.
> On Monday, May 24. I rode a Q of R-40M/42. Since when was the R-40M/42 assigned to the Q. Was it because
> they need more trains due to the re-open of the 63 St sect? Then where did those R-32 go? Plus, in the front
> and between cars of the R-42, the sign was a standard orange white letter Q but on the side signs,
> it was a yellow black letter Q.
Today (Thursday, June 4), I saw a Q train of R-32 cars. Has anyone else seen one of those lately?
I often see yellow Q signs on Q trains. In fact, before the 63 St. Tunnel closed and there were R-32 cars on the Q line, I once saw a yellow Q sign on the side, and next to it, it said "Broadway" instead of "6 Avenue"! Why do they use yellow Q signs instead of orange Q signs so often?
Either whoever set the signs didn't understand the difference between the yellow Q (Broadway) and the orange Q (Sixth Avenue), even though they're all supposed to, or someone was trying to be funny.
David
[I often see yellow Q signs on Q trains. In fact, before the 63 St. Tunnel closed and there were R-32 cars on the Q line, I once saw a yellow Q sign on the side, and next to it, it said "Broadway" instead of "6 Avenue"! Why do they use yellow Q signs instead of orange Q signs so often?]
Didn't see the stray R32 you reported on the "Q" today - nothing but the usual pack of Slant R40s, all rip-roaring up and down the Brighton Express in their usual manner. Saw more than the usual quota of R32 on the "N", however. Could be they use the R32 and/or the R42 as extras during the rush...
The R32 has both yellow and orange "Q" signs, correct? I know the R40s have both kinds. All "Q" signs were Orange today, at least on the R40s.
Wayne
When will the first R-142 come? Plus, aren't the 7 suppose to get R-62s? If so, when?
The R-142 are supposed to come in this year around the summer and the R-62's will come to the 7 when the R-142's come in and the cars might come from either the 1/9, 6,3 lines.
As we approach Memorial Day I always remember back to Memorial
Day, 1976. I was living in Connecticut and the M-2's were just new
to the New Haven Line. It was the first chance you could get to see
out the front as the washboard 4400s provided no view. I rode the
train down from Westport to GCT, looking out the front window all the
way, then Shuttle to Times Square and 2 train to Penn Station. From
Penn I rode the LIRR out to Belmont Park. I was my first trip on the
LIRR and I had never seen Pennsy signals before. The engineer
explained every signal to me. I learned that Approach Medium was not a new way to cook a steak!
It was a great day, and it will always be my favorite Railfan experience, Memorial Day, 1976.
But did the horse win???
The new weekend Fulton Express is a wonderful thing. Every R38 that takes me out there is a new great railfan-subway experience. Today's ride on #4060 at the railfan window (complete with wickedly cold A/C)
was another splendid run, with a top estimated speed of 47MPH between Hoyt and Nostrand.
Wayne
My favorite experience was last year, taking the 6 downtown with my girlfriends 12-yr-old daughter. As the train neared Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, I saw the conductor and asked if we could stay on for the loop, as I wanted to show her the City Hall Station. Not only were we able to stay on, but he stopped the train in City Hall Station, and we were able to get out and soak up a little bit of the atmosphere of the old station for a minute or so. She loved it, and it was a thrill for me too!
I had a fun one recently. A friend and I were taking a railfan trip on the #6. We waited through a few cycles at Pelham Bay Park so we could ride back on a set of Redbirds. A few stations down the line, the motorman opened the cab door, and commented that we were talking some "serious subway." We told him that we were both from Seashore, and he kept the cab door open all the way down to Brooklyn Bridge, talking to us all the way.
I was 7 yrs old, my grandmother was taking me to Mary Popins at Radio City, the Motorman on the 7 let me sit on his lap as he operated the train. I got to blow the horn too!! Solid Railfan from that point on.
I saw Mary Poppins when it first came out as well, although we were still living in South Bend at the time. I was in second grade at the time; for the rest of the school year, it seemed as if all we ever sang were songs from that movie, ad nauseum.
I'd have to rank the last prewar D train I ever rode on as one of my all-time favorite experiences. We were waiting at 34th St. when it pulled in - without headlights. It was an unbeatable combination: tunnel lights providing the only illumination along with the familiar symphony of R-1/9 sounds. Luckily, there was just enough time before our bus left Port Authority, so I stayed on that train and rode it up CPW to 125th St, where I reluctantly got off.
Second place goes to the handful of A trains of R-1/9s I was lucky enough to ride on; unfortunately, I never did get to ride on such a train up CPW, only a few D trains.
Last but not least: every A train of R-10s I ever took up CPW. It was as if Jackie Gleason was about to say, "And away we go!"
Say, Wayne, did you happen to catch a glimpse of the speedometer on those R-38s? Last fall, the A trains I took along Fulton St. got up to 38 mph between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Nostrand, and pushed 40 between Broadway-ENY and Euclid Ave.
He steadied around 40 until he was past the curve then opened up to just touch 47 between Clinton-Wash and Franklin. Then a single GT got him at A3 677 and it was back to 35 or so. Between Bway-ENY and Eüclid outbound was all GT's but coming back I'd say he was close to 45, all green. I could only see the speedo on the outbound train, #4060.
Wayne
I'd love to be on a train doing 47 mph anywhere: Fulton St., CPW, Lexington, 7th Ave., you name it. Oh, I'm sure the R-10s did it routinely on the A along CPW. River tunnels don't count. I'd have to say the only time I ever encountered a train going that fast along Fulton St. was that E train of R-1/9s in July 1969. I don't remember the pitch of the bull and pinion gears, but it was probably up there at about F# or G above middle C. That train was blowing past everything in its path, trains and local stations alike. One can only imagine what an E train of slant R-40s was capable of doing along that line back then.
My favorite railfan-subway experience was my first ride on an "A" train out of Far Rockaway. It was in March of 1977. I was a small kid then. Just moved there from the Grand Concorse in the Bronx. At that time, growing up in the Bronx as a child under 10, it never entered my mind that the "A" train, or any IND train (except for the "D" and "F" trains to Coney Island) actually went outside. In my mind, only the IRTs went outside. That's all you saw in the Bronx. Up until that point, the farthest that I had taken the "A" was to Rockaway Avenue. I bit of a trip but still all underground. So imagine the surprise when we first moved out there and I actually was looking at R10s right outside my bedroom window. Then actually getting on that R10 on an early rush hour morning and looking out of that front window, seeing actual daylight poor into that train, watching this train travel over the largest body of water I had ever crossed at that point, blazing full speed through the islands in the bay while sharing track with "CC" trains, mostly consists of R32s, riding on old fashion el structure over Liberty Avenue in Ozone Park and then the super fast express run from Euclid Ave. to 145 St. This is when I realized how fast the R10s were capable of traveling. It was 2 hours of pure ecstacy. Something I will never forget.
Probably my all time favorite railfan experience occurred early in 1957. I was happily having my first R16 ride on the Jamaica Express (J, 15) was we pulled into Broadway-Myrtle. I looked up at the L and saw a BU train waiting on the Myrtle. Up 'til then, I had no hint that such equipment existed, no less was still running.
Any thought of R16s and the Jamaica Line were instantly swept from my mind.
I actually got to work the gates on an in-service open platform gate train at Cleveland St, Van Siclen Ave and Alabama Ave at the end of evening rush hour. The train was going out of service at Eastern Parkway so after I opened the gates there I had to get off. This happened in the fall of 1949 when I was only a teenager. The gateman recognized me from other trips and when I asked him if it was hard to operate those gate handles he let me try. I was disappointed that no one got on or off (there were only three or four passengers on the three car train) so I really had no customers. The gateman also would not let me pull the bell cord to give the two tug bell signal forward to the next platform. The gates were easy to operate and it was quite a thrill to open and close them. I was so impressed that I felt I had found what I wanted to do for a lifetime career. Within a year the gate trains were gone from the line.
First and every time in the gate cars on the Myrtle Ave El - 1956 - 1961.
Also high on my list of favorites--whenever there was severe weather I used to head out on the outdoor lines--especially for snow storms. Especially in the era when Standards were giving way to R27s on the BMT, the bad weather brought out the older equipment.
One time in the early 70s I rode some R1-9s running local on the D on the Brighton. When we left Parkside Ave. north, the gently blowing snow had covered the running rails so it seemed that we were running on a large white blanket instead of a railroad. The snow muffled most of the running noises and the view out the front window as we negotiated what seemed invisible switches was beautiful and eerie.
It was the same story on the Eastern Division. Whenever a snowstorm would bear down on Brooklyn and Queens, the R-16s would be sent to the Canarsie line and the BMT standards would take over on the Myrtle Ave. and Jamaica lines. Only a blizzard of epic proportions could slow those battleships down. That goes for the Triplexes, too.
What is that noise in the front car when a MU train starts up. It can be heard from the cabinet across from the motorman's cab. Sound like a
loud click, a relay or something. When they release the brakes or throttle up, the sound can be heard.
The clicking sound you may be refering to is the controller. It is 4 positions: coast, series, switching & multiple. It is in the coast position in the station. You will hear clicks as he notches it up.
I think what we hear is some sort of 'zero speed' relay. Seems to drop out just before train stops and picks up as soon as power is applied ( or vice-versa). Most common use is to disable doors when the train is moving. Of course this is just an educated guess....
The Arrows have a power KO relay like our side door indication. It's got two bypass switches, one for center, high platform doors, and one for low, end doors. The end door one is ussually in bypass. There's also a control relay for the doors, it's speed sensitve. If a side door is left open (vestibule only) while the train is moving, it will automatically shut at 15 MPH. The Amfleet coaches have it too. I don't know about the M cars though.
The M cars do have a relay as part of the P- wire. Won't allow the cars to take power when the the P-wire's below 0.5 amps. 0.5 is relase brakes. Lower gradually applies them, and 0 is full service. That may be the click you hear.
You'd hear it whenever the engineer applies or releases.
*ding!*
Does that relay make a nice, loud click? it seems to be apply / release related.
It's more like a CLICK-Cock in rapid session.
Yep, sounds like the relay for the Power KO. Holds the power off while the brakes are applied.
The former Superintendent of Pelham Maintenance Shop, Fayez Salah, has resigned to take his new position as Chief Mechanical Officer of the Atlanta System. I for 1, wish him much success in his new endeavor. BTW, if any of you pass 370 Jay St. this weekend, that line you see are the hopefuls waiting to apply for his job.
I do believe Nat Ford has a son there. It seems to be a refuge of former TA personnel. Heck, they sent me an unsolicited letter last summer. They advertise periodically here in the Daily News too.
That's OK, only loosers leave a sinking ship. We can keep the place afloat without him.
I do believe Nat Ford has a son there. It seems to be a refuge of former TA personnel. Heck, they sent me an unsolicited letter last summer. They advertise periodically here in the Daily News too.
That's OK, only loosers leave a foundering ship. We can keep the place afloat without him.
OR, is that the RATS leaving a foundering (i.e. sinking) ship??
Are you referring to the NYCT or just Pelham Shop?
Neither. It just seemed like the perfect rejoiner to the prior post.
I'm a big rail fan and i just cam back from New York and I was wondering three things. 1: Exactly how many rail tunnesl are there under the hudson? I know that there are 2 for penn Station, 4 for the Path (two for thw WTC and two for the 33rd St. line, but are there any more? 2: How were the penn Station tunnels dug? are they bored under the hudson like Paths? or are they prefab sections sunk into the river bed? 3: Does anyone know the speed limit in the tunnel sections of the Penn tunnels? I take NJ transit all the time. Mainly ALP-44 pulled/pushed trains but sometimes Arrows MU and at times it seems as if the ALPs fly through the tunnels but the Arrows slowly chug along.
There are no other rail tunnels under the Hudson. I understand that some planning types are talking about adding another tunnel between NJ and Manhattan because of lack of capacity into Penn station. Also, the Mayor is pushing for a freight tunnel under the harbor from SI to Brooklyn.
The MAS for passenger trains in the Hudson river tunnels is 60 MPH. Arrrow III, ALP44/Comet, AEM7/Amfleet, E60/Heritage fleet, and the new Genisis engines.
Trains having freight equipment in their consist are limited to 45 MPH. The mail cars hauled behind many Amtrak trains don't count. They have a passenger car's braking gear.
Yes, they can run the Genisis units to NJ. The third rail runs to about 1000 feet past the tunnel portal. I do believe that's Bergen Interlocking, there.
{How were the penn Station tunnels dug? are they bored under the hudson like Paths? or are they prefab sections sunk into the river bed? }
All the tunnels under the Hudson were shield-driven.
In the NY Post Sunday May 30 page 20 are 3 articles.
Article 1: MTA Gets Rolling On Plan For Added Trains. This is about new subway trains will soon be ordered for the new millennium.
Article 2: ''Lemon'' Builder Squeezers Out New Pact. This is about the Bombardier and Kawasaki Companys. One of these firms which is accused of prouducing lemons for the TA has won a new contract to build trains for the Long Island Railroad and Metro-North.
Article 3: McCall: JFK Rail Links Off Track. This is about State Comptroller Carl McCall the highest ranking elected official is slamming the controversial JFK Airport rail-link, saying there must be a better alternative.
After the good folks read the articles, your most excellent comments are welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
HOORAY FOR CARL McCALL! Of course, there is a better route to JFK - it's called White Pot Junction. The only stumbling block would be how to get the NYCT and LIRR to share the right of way between Liberty Avenue/101st Street and the Howard Beach station. The two center tracks of the right of way are the ideal spot for the LIRR or NYCT link.
Here is a question. The Rockaway Branch between White Pot Junction and Atlantic Avenue - is this a two-track or four-track right of way?
I know it's four-track at Ozone Park and south. The link to Atlantic Avenue LIRR is still there too, no?
Wayne
One of the above mentioned articles
Wayne:
I very much agree!
I used to play on those abandoned tracks. There are two all the way to Atlantic. Problems exit, and from these will stem great poitical opposition.
Adjacent to Union Tpke, is a building which has it's residential parking lot on the right of way. Also the rail bridge over the Montauk branch is gone. Farther down, at Jamaica Av. a property owner has his garden and bird coops on the track. Around 101st Av. is a school bus garage's parking lot on the ROW.
But hey, the interlocking is still pretty much there by Fleet St. and it's all grade seperated. Even a duck under the main line at White Pot.
We could keep dreaming....
[re parking lots etc. on former Rockaway ROW]
Legally, those people who've made private use of the ROW are trespassers, pure and simple. If they raise a big stink over reopening the line, the city (which owns the ROW) should present them with bills for back rent.
(Send the trespassers on the ROW a bill for back rent).
Those are community gardens, aren't they?
I have the fix for at least TWO obstacles:
The solution is this.
Right after the new Parkville Station at Metropolitan Avenue (which will be rebuilt in its original architectural style, just like Forest Hills was), we will DIVE DEEP into a tunnel, whose mouth would be roughly east of 75th Avenue (east of Woodhaven Blvd), which will then dive below the Montauk Branch, the apartment building AND its parking lot, only to resurface just on the south side of the Jackie Robinson Parkway at the boot end of 83rd Avenue (just above Myrtle Avenue). This dig may add a couple hundred million $ to the final price tag, but it beats the alternative.
The gentleman with the pigeon-coop, which will be replaced by the new Brooklyn Manor station (complete with a new pedestrian access walkway to the "J" service at 102nd Street), will have to be paid off
for his troubles. The station should mimic but not duplicate the original, with wood trim over the steel shed frames.
Woodhaven station gets a complete facelift, complete with the restoration of the rounded station sheds and an overhauled entranceway. Even the old platform lights get updated. Final result will look like Aqueduct Station.
Isn't the ROW somewhat elevated at 101st Avenue - that's where the new Ozone Park station will go, on the site of the old, whose platforms are clearly visible from "A" trains passing over Liberty Avenue.
I have big dreams for this line. It should initially be a LIRR line,
with frequent service. Can't see how it could share same track with NYCT (the center two tracks are separate) due to FRA regs. etc.
One more thing- how about a new stop for Queens Center to replace the old Rego Park station which was obliterated?
Wayne
I only found the first article on their website. Where are the others?
All these articles are on the same page of the NY Post Sunday May which is page 20 if you can get your hands on the Sunday NY Post. Maybe the other 2 articles might or might not be there on the website.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
PATH has two kins of signals "Z" signals and "X" signals as identified on aplae underneath the signal such as 393Z or LA3X.
The X signals work like NYCT's Homeball signals. This message will discuss the Z Signals. The signals can display Green, Yellow, Yellow over Yellow (Double Yellow) or Red. The green, single yellow, and red work like NYCT's regular automatic signals. The double yellow signal is a timer signal and are found in the WTC loop, descending from the lift bridge into JSQ, The turnoff to Pavonia and Hoboken,etc. The PATH Times work just like their NYCT counterparts.
One interesting signal is located just East Of Grove street and is two X signals side by side (giving the appearance of a 4 aspect signal.)
an aspect of all red is simple-- stop. Reading left to right, top to bottom: Red/Yellow/Red/ Yellow denotes the train will be going to the WTC. the lineup of Yellow/Red/Yellow/Read denotes that the train will be turning off to go to Pavonia and/or Hoboken. The aspect of all yellow is not a choice!
PATH's Homeball signals are similar to the Pennsy/ LIRR , original IRT signals. the top aspect is for the right=hand route and the second aspect is for the left-hand route. There are some 3 aspect signals which work like the IRT 3 aspect signals. The PATH homeballs (X Signals) control an interlock and the rule here is :"One aspect will ALWAYS be red".
SOURCE: PATH Train Operator (Engineer).
DAVE: Please add to the PATH page and layout these signals vertically.
Hi everyone,
I was wondering if anyone knows when the double deckers run on the weekends. I know they run on weekdays but witth work, I can't ride them and don't want to either. So, if anyone knows if dd's run on the weekend on a standard shedule or if it would be better just to go to Jamacia and find one, it would be helpful.
It's a tossup because there are many DD in now.For example,I used to see them exclusively on the Oyster Bay branch,in addition to the Port Jefferson branch.LastMonday,I saw a DD on the Babylon-Speonk run at Babylon.This was the first time I saw one there.I heard there was one running on the Greenport shuttle recently.Take your pick.
3 out of the four weekend trainsets for Oyster Bay were DD but I think that changed... It is pure luck on getting a DD on the weekend.
I saw one from the street at Parsons-Archer last night going to Jamaica.I see a lot of them in Morris Park from the J line north of 121st.
I saw old stuff in the Richmond Hill station.269 was head out east, while 168 was on the other end with 4 coaches.I could only get one number from the coach,2803.
I rode one today on the Montauk line from Sayville to Babylon. There were several travelling in the opposite direction.
They are SO much nicer than the old deisel trains. The engine even has a more aerodynamic ( bright yellow ) front. The seats are high backed with contoured head rests - giving a better sense of privacy. They're also only 4 across, so each seat is wider. Had a very smooth ride. My only complaint is the IC - rather muffled for brand new equipment. Overall, a much needed improvement.
I think they all still terminate at Jamaica, so that would be a good place to start.
Last Sat. a bunch were in the Morris Park yard, just West of Jamaica, i.e. not in service.
Mr t__:^)
Last Saturday I get a DD at 12:30 to Oyster Bay, but coming back at 4:30, it was a P-S standard. You can hang out at Track 8 in Jamaica and check the OB, Port Jeff and Montauk trains.
About seven or eight years ago, I vaguely remember "60 Minutes" (the news program) doing a story on the homeless population living in the NYC subway tunnels. I even remember a number of specific parts of the story, such as how the homeless had managed to use such amenities as washing machines in the tunnels. However, after some research, I can't find any evidence of 60 Minutes ever airing a story like this. Does anyone else remember this? Or perhaps I have the right show, but the wrong locality where the story was shot? Any assistance that anyone could provide would be appreciated. Thanks!
I believe it was "48 Hours," not "60 Minutes."
David
I actually saw a segment about homeless living in the AMTRAK tunnel under Riverside park on a "Jerry Springer" show.
DISCLAIMER: I do not admit that I now watch or have ever watched the Jerry Springer Show
I don't know about Jerry Springer (I never watch either!) but I believe the homeless segment was on '48 Hours'. If I recall correctly, much of it was in the Amtrak West Side tunnel.
See also Brennan's review of The Mole People, linked from this websute. The Tunnel is equally (in)accurate.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From Tuesday 1st June, 55 of the 86 trains required for peak hour use
will be formed of OPTO "new" 1995 Tube stock, the balance being made up by 1959/1962 stock (31 trains).
The "official" conversion to full OPTO is December 1999 on paper
but progress in commisioning new stock is progressing well.
Of note is that 106 "new" trains are being built and commisioned so plenty of spare sets will be available as
Current line capacity can NOT be extended with current signalling in use.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Well yesterday was an active day with signal problem. The first one I know about happened at 9AM on the Broadway Bridge. There was a suspention in No.1 Service from 215 Street to 242 St-VC. I was held up North of Chambers because a No.3 train was crossing in front of me. That train went local from 96 Street. Then going Uptown I was running late so I was given a skip. After 3 Ave my next stop was E 180 Street followed by Gun Hill Road. Well the No.2 train that was behind my got stuck South of Jackson Ave with signals red at danger. Well I guess you can say I left him in the Dust. He had problems calling control so he had to try to get to a Phone. Lots of trains tryed calling Control for him but No Answer. I even tryed. As I was pulling into E 241 Street thats when the train behind me was starting to move. Ofcause he had to make all stops. I felt bad for that guy. Well I took his train back to Flatbush. On the way back Uptown I heard on the radio there where more signal problems but this time on the No.4,5,6 Line in the area of 14 Street.
There also seemed to be a problem with the Broad Channel Bridge about 2:30PM which caused a bunch of "A" trains to form a queue leading back towards Euclid. Peg and I bailed out at Rockaway Blvd (where we were being held by a solid red homeball) and went back in the other direction so we could observe the backlog. Were some trains being short turned yesterday as a result of this? Sure looked like it.
Wayne
My girlfreind was coming down from the Bronx yesterday on the 1, she said the bridge was actually UP.
-Hank
switch troubles north of Astor Place on the 4-5-6 causing delays in uptown number 6 trains. I was rerouted from Brooklyn Bridge up 3 track and lucked out going express all the way to 125.
Control center should do radio checks in areas like that to make sure that there is communication.But of course since they know everything,that won't happen.
Lucky you I got held at 145 for 15 minutes then turned at Dyckman for a fourth trip on Fri.
I also work the No.1 Line weekday's Tuesday to Friday and Saturday on the No.2 Line.
I'd like to thank all of you who responded to my quesdtion on R-42 destination signs. I have another question.
Some years back, the Transit Museum at Boerum Street, Brooklyn sold a variety of authentic porcelain signs from subway staitons. These were moslty the smaller ones that were attached to the columns of IND stations. They changed them out when someone decided that white lettering on a black sign was more easily readable by vision-impaired riders. The museum sold the old black lettering on a white signs. They came in three sizes: small it it was just a street #, medium, if it was a street name like Kingsbridge Road, and a larger one for stations like 71st Street, Continental Ave. There also were blue porcelain signs at the ends of IRT stations warning against crossing the tracks. How might I get some of these. Thanks again!
MAY 30, 1999: Thanks to Sid Keyles, many new photos have been added to the Coney Island Complex Tour: new photos of the repair, overhaul, and inspection shops and the yards are included. Sid also contributed photos from his visit to BusFest 1999 which took place on 5/23/1999.
Bravo Dave & Sid. Great Pictures. Thanks very much.
VERRRRY COOL stuff! And top-notch quality pictures. Of course, I like all those lovely Slant R40 shots, and some of those B-Division Redbirds are pretty impressive too. Too bad nobody got a picture of the Frankenslant.
I must go next year if there is a tour. I'd have gone this year, but Dr Roseman had dibs on me. I STILL haven't gotten the damn bridge back yet!
Wayne
I have a picture of what I assume is Frankenslant (Car # 4461). I took it from the wrong end, though, so it is hard to see the weld and the slant end. The tour guide said that it was just a weld of a crack and not two cars combined, but the number says otherwised.
That would be GREAT! Can you scan it at 720x512 pixels so I can use it as a wallpaper? Of course, they're not going to publicize what we already know was a tragic accident - those of us who are savvy will remember the unit numbers involved. Yes, technically he is right about welding a "crack", albeit the entire front end could be considered a "crack". BTW that is 4260's nose plastered onto the R40M body - and that will be the new unit number once the work is done.
Wayne
When you do, will it be a toll bridge :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh it's ALREADY been a toll! 12 extractions, to be exact. I'm nicknaming the lower one the "Manhattan" (because they're forever fixing it) and the upper one the "Williamsburgh" because it's only a "partial" construction job. :o)
Wayne
(Oops, those links might have been broken for a while. Try again now if you were unable to find the new stuff.)
-Dave
I read about the NYCTA rotary converters but does anyone know the inner workings about this machine. Why do they create so much heat,noise,pollution?
Why were the substations keep in such dim lighting?
Do they still use them today? If not what do they use?
A rotary converter is not mystical. Just an AC motor running a DC genrator. Old industial areas were not lit well as a rule.
The noise I cannot answer but the heat was likely just from the motor and generator running.
The only polution should have been noise. Mercury rectifiers would have been more of a concern for polution.
They were disontinued because they were large, required maintenance and were not as efficient as other forms of rectifiers.
I have been in a building that houses one but never seen it running.
There is a difference between a motor generator (as described above) and a rotary converter. Both units have synchronous AC motors, which run at constant speed when the power use is minimal. The motor generator takes load as power is used, causing the sync motor to lag behind the phase and therefore draw more current. The generator puts out the necessary voltage but this voltage also drops with load as the internal losses in the armature become significant. The regulator increases the field current to maintain the voltage. Since all of this generates heat the set runs hotter as the load increases.
A rotary converter uses two input voltages, a high voltage to spin the motor and a lower voltage applied to slip rings which in turn connect directly to commutator bars. As the converter turns the correct bars pass under the brushes to pass the proper voltage to the DC side. Bars elsewhere on the cycle are not connected.
The whole dang thing turns at 3600 rpm, so the commutator makes a full turn for each sine wave of voltage, the bars are sequenced to feed the brushes with a constant voltage by alternating the combination of slip rings fed to the brushes. The motor never sees any load so it runs at constant speed. Likewise there are no armature or field coils to accumulate losses. Therefore the rotary converter runs much cooler than an motor generator. It also consumes less electricity itself and requires less maintenance than an MG.
Rob Morel's sent us some photos of the new Jubilee Line service which you can find on the London pages.
Thanks to Rob!
-Dave