Is there any way Lenox Yard could be fix so that they can make the 3 train 10 cars?
Is the Q train consider an IND or BMT line? Or both? If it return to Bway, then it will be a BMT line but right now it runs on IND tracks.......
In some maps that I have, the Q is an IND, in others, it is a BMT.
I consider the Q to be a "BMT" service - it has a BMT Letter (A-H: IND; J-Z: BMT) and originates from a former BMT terminal - Brighton Beach. It also uses the BMT-to-IND Chrystie Street connection.
Wayne
What about the B and D trains? Dont they use connection too?
Yes they do. I guess you could consider the "B" to be a BMT service even though it has an IND letter. The "D" is best known as IND due to its origins on the Concourse in the Bronx, even though it's been on the Brighton line for the last 30-odd years.
Wayne
Wayne: This brings up some interesting points. The West End Express (BMT #3 or T)was always something of a wanderer in search of a northern terminal. In the middle to late 1960's the T ran extended rush btwn Astoria-Coney Is,Astoria-Bay Pkwy, and Queensboro Plaza-Coney Is. On Saturdays it ran from 6a-8p btwn 57/7 and Coney Island.
A few put-ins/pull-outs also ran to Canal St/Bway via tunnel although they disguised themselves as TT as the proper place for a Bway express was on the bridge,not the tunnel.
The B continued this wandering tradition going to 168 and/or West 4 then 168 and 57/6Av. The current B has no less than three northern terminals. The only part of its routes that has remained fixed all these years has been the Dekalb-Coney Is BMT section.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Why did they choose to run the M to Marcy instead of the J.(Other than Bill from maspeth runs on the M)
Why?
The TA does every thing for one reason. Not for passenger convienience. Not for employee relations. Not for efficiency. No.
TO SAVE MONEY. That's the holy grail on the 13th floor. Figure out how to speed up a trip? OK, that's nice. What? You managed to save 1.1%? Make that man a superintendent.
Because J trips are longer, they require more crews. Shorten the run, and you can have less. The M run being only slightly longer would only require a few extra personnel.
That's why things happen the way they do down here.
Another example. Ever wonder why the D, a longer line has to make all the stops on the Brighton, while the Q scoots?
So they can get away with less Q crews. The few less stops would have only made a difference of a couple of minutes to the D. Not enough to save on a crew, or add another trip to those overburdened D people (reason #1 why I NEVER work there) BUT, Q's going in the middle, means they can tack on 5 trips, and pay a little built in over time (that's why the Q is so senior) and run the place with less personnel. That's called efficiency. A "productivity increase" I'ts blood money to me. I don't need the OT. I'd rather have more than 9 minutes between trips. I for one like to eat and maybe use the bathroom.
Erik,
I almost hate to say this but I agree with you on this issue. Mind you, saving money is a noble pursuit but some of our good friends at "Operations-Planning" may occassionally lose sight of our more important goals, like efficiently moving people. Not long ago, a person from that group of Wise Transit Sages stated at a meeting,
"The reason that there are not enough cars for service is because Car Equipment is doing too much maintenance."
For that reason, I'd never ride in her personal automobile. For that reason, I also question any decission they make.....
Yes, it would be logical & less confusing to run the M to Bway/Myrtle since it goes there most of the time already when you consider midday single track WillyB G/O's and night and weekend shuttle service before 5/1/99. But by the TA plan, they can get the maximum productivity out of the J & M crews. I'm sure there was a schedule worked out with the M to Bway/Myrtle & the J to Marcy, but by doing it the way they are, a job or two was probably saved. Because of this, those traveling between Bway/Myrtle & Marcy will have to squeeze into 4 cars instead of 6!
Why are they using only 4-car trains on the M between Metropolitan and Marcy? I thought it was because the new Marcy center platform can only fit 4-car trains. Thus, if the J ran there instead of the M, the J would have to be 4 cars instead of 6 (or 8).
Marcy Ave middle platform can accomodate a six car train.The reason the M is running 4-car trains is because extra cars are needed on the L,and extra cars were sent to Coney Island to supplement N and possibly Q service.Also, the T.A. must feel that the majority of people getting on the M between Metropolitan ave and Seneca ave will transfer to the L at Wyckoff.Since that is only a 4 station difference,they probably feel that everyone can squeeze in and wait a few minutes to transfer at Wyckoff.Even though it's only 6 minutes between Wyckoff and Metropolitan aves,there will probably be overcrowding on the M because of the 4 car trains and 10 minute headway.To get 6 car slant R40s on the M, all you need is 10 more cars.I don't think they're that short where they can't get 10 more cars for service.Correction,they need 12 cars because they run 5 trains with a gap train in the yard.I can't wait to see the overcrowding on Monday.
Maybe the TA suits hope if they make it inconvient enough that folks will go reverse on the J & catch the E, or get off at Broadway & Eastern Pky and catch the L or A/C ?
Mr t__:^)
Since the Archer connection opened in 1988, many people along the 'J/Z' reverse to Sutphin and then catch the 'E' into Manhattan. This defeats the entire purpose of reviving Jamaica El service into downtown Jamaica; i.e. encouraging people who work downtown to go through Brooklyn and thus relieve crowding on the Queens Boulevard lines through Midtown.
Unfortunately, linking the 'E' and 'J' at Sutphin has backfired big time. People who used to take the El into Manhattan from Woodhaven and Richmond Hill (or buses to Queens Boulevard stations) are backtracking to Supthin as described above. This has only made overcrowding on the 'E' worse. Any morning rush hour, you will see huge crowds of people at Supthin coming upstairs from the lower level 'J' platform to the the upper level 'E' platform. Likewise, any afternoon rush hour, you will see the reverse, and many more people disembarking from INBOUND 'J's from 121st as far west as Eldert than people getting off OUTBOUND 'J/Z's.
Apparently, no matter what the incentives, people avoid commuting on the 'J/Z' like the plague. Of course, now with the Bridge cut off, I shudder to think what the 'E' will be like in rush hours.
Why do people avoid the J/Z? Slow service or another problem?
From what I've heard, people who avoid the 'J/Z' do so because:
-It's faster to get into Midtown on the 'E'.
-To get to downtown Brooklyn, one has to change at East New York for the 'A' which requires going up a stairway, then down a very deep, crowded escalator. Many feel it's preferable to take the 'F' from Queens to downtown Brooklyn by way of Midtown.
-The perception is that the neighborhoods through which the 'J/Z' run are dangerous. Maybe in the middle of the night-
-It generally does feel slower due to a very old elevated structure and many stops close together. The peak direction rush hour skip-stop service is frequently not enforced. The middle track between Eastern Parkway and Myrtle Avenue is unused, and no middle track was ever constructed between Cypress Hills and 121st Street even though provision was made for one.
All these reasons prevailed BEFORE the Bridge closure. Now, forget it!!
Parsons to Myrtle on the J takes about 30 minutes. Parsons to Lexington Ave. on the E takes about 25 minutes. 'nuff said?
Has anyone given any thought to what happens if any of the cars being run on any of the Eastern division temporary routes need one of their major inspections (or, God forbid, there is an accident and the cars need to be trucked away)? They are stranded out there, are they not?
Couldn't get the cars down to Coney Island or up to 207th St, so what happens?
On another note, a bit of nostalgia yesterday coming in from LGA. Got off the Q33 at Roosevelt Avenue, headed down to the IND, and in pulls an E made up of R46 cars. Hadn't seen one of those in a long time!!!
Not to play Monday Morning Quarterback, but no one asked my opinion ahead of time, so here goes. The MTA seems to have this thing about keeping stations open. No matter that someone entering the station, and boarding a train, couldn't get anywhere. I guess it's political.
Money is being spent on a shuttle from Essex to Chambers, an area where people can (and probably should) just walk to other trains. Money is being spent keeping the J and M running west of Broadway Junction. Why? If you are prepared to just shut the line down, other things could have been done with the money.
First of all, for most J, M and Z riders west of Broadway Junction, a slightly longer walk to the L, A, C or G is the best alternative. For others, a bus to one of those lines is the best alternative. More money should have been used for bus service, and DOT should have installed temporary bus lanes on routes in Ridgewood, Bushwick, Bed-Stuy. Not would be a good time to do any and all maintenance on the Broadway Brooklyn and Myrtle Ave lines. (For those East of Broadway Junction, a J/M/Z train and a change to the A/L is probably the best move, so service there should be maintained).
Next, why not run the M up the Broadway local and down Queens Blvd? With only 8 N trains and 8 R trains at peak (according to the new schedule), it sure seems like 6 or 7 M trains could join them. That would just be 22-23 trains. Shut down the Nassau Loop and do maintenance.
Of course, you shouldn't lay people off just to save a few dollars. But if closing the stations reduced manpower needs, you could pay less overtime during vacations this year. And, in any event, more people would be available to run more trains elsewhere.
Perhaps the TA is concerned that if too many J,M,Z riders take advantage of other alternatives, they'll find they are better off, and will demand more service on the other lines!
Is there any track connection between the J/Z and the E at Jamaica Center? That would be the only connection I could think of for the stranded Easterd Division cars.
[Is there any track connection between the J/Z and the E at Jamaica Center? That would be the only connection I could think of for the stranded Easterd Division cars.]
There's no connection, unfortunately.
Reminds me of a situation some years back (unplanned, however) when a bridge on one of the north lines on the MBTA burned down, stranding a whole bunch of trains up there. (Maybe it was even the main lead bridge to North Station because I remember something about a temporary station needing to be built)
Yes, it was the bridge over the Charles River leading to North Station. Trains terminated next to the old Boston Engine Terminal, and a temporary walkway was constructed to the Community College station on the Orange Line which runs parallel.
The only way to move cars from the Eastern Division to the rest of the system without the Williamsburgh Bridge is by using non-TA trackage. the move would have to be as follows:
From L at the Linden Shops to the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch
From the Bay Ridge Branch at 65th Street to the Cross Harbor RR tracks on 1st Avenue, Brooklyn
From the CHRR to the South Brooklyn RR tracks at 39th Street
From the SBKRR to the TA 36th Street yard (on the West End line).
There was a thread on this topic about two or three weeks ago with more detailed descriptions of the various connections mentioned here.
[The only way to move cars from the Eastern Division to the rest of the system without the Williamsburgh Bridge is by using non-TA trackage. the move would have to be as follows:
From L at the Linden Shops to the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch
From the Bay Ridge Branch at 65th Street to the Cross Harbor RR tracks on 1st Avenue, Brooklyn
From the CHRR to the South Brooklyn RR tracks at 39th Street
From the SBKRR to the TA 36th Street yard (on the West End line).]
It would be a lot quicker (and probably cheaper) just to put the cars on flatbed trucks. In any event, I don't believe that there are any plans to move cars off of the Eastern Divison during the bridge shutdown. The East New York yard has been upgraded to handle any necessary maintenance during this period.
How much would it have cost to put in a connection between the J and the E tracks in Jamaica when the J subway was built?
Sigh...
Everyday i take a #2 to work, when the train pass the Unionport Yard and i saw a Snowblower at Unionport Yard. I said myself why are snowblower doing in Unionport Yard? There wasn't a alot of snow early this year and i get a close up at the snowblower. It JB-1 and how many snowblower are there? there is 5 snowblower? All i know they have JB-1,JB-4 and JB-5. I want you to take a look at this picture of Snowblower .
Ah, a jet blower. These were developed by the New York Central at the Peat St. Car Shops (Syracuse) in the early '60's. NYCRR took an old caboose, cut away most of the carbody and strapped a mliitary surplus F-86 jet engine on to it. But that's not all, they also took an RDC car, attached a 2-engine nacelle cluster from a B-36 and blasted it down a tangent in Ohio at @ 180 MPH !!!!! YOWZAH
Today I rode the N train bound for Astoria, and to my surprise it was an R40M! It was a little weird but I can get use to it. It was a nice and fast ride, quite similar to an R-40 slant.
PEace
DaShawn
As it should be! Take away the fake R42 nose and what you have is an R40. NYCT thought the slant design would be problematic so they had the last 100 units of the R40 order re-designed with "Modified" ends, like the R42, hence the name "Modified R40" or "R40M".
The "N" sign - did it have a black or a white letter?
Wayne /MrSlant(AND Modified}R40\
Thanks!
It had a black letter "N"
Peace
DaShawn
Yeah, I saw that yesterday, too....
Don't be suprised by that since there was a 3 way car swap: R40/42 ENY to CI; R32's (Phase II CI to JAM; R32's (Phase I JAM to PITKIN. CI gave up 80 R32's to Jamaica, so that R40M took the place of a 32.
How will the three way swap manifest itself in service?
Michael
R42/R40M/R40 are the same animal regardless of apperance to those who are not aware, FAST and an awesome piece of equipment to operate.
I can see saying the R-40 and R-40M are the same animal, as they came from the same contract. But the R-42 came from a totally different contract, and the exteriors are quite different from the similar exteriors of the R-40/40M (excluding the fronts). Saying the R-40 and R-42 are the same animal seems tantamount to saying the R-32 and R-38, or the R-44 and R-46, respectively, are the same animal.
Well, they're from the same species, anyway (and I'm sure the R-46 doesn't want anyone to know about it's connection to the R-44)
Thank you Sid. I am one of those who feels that an R-40M is out of place on a train of R-40's,dittos mixing R-32's with R-38's. There are visual differences there that even a layman could see.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R40/R40-M and the R42 are virtually the same except for the R42 has the full metal covers under the doors that run the length of the car. The R40/40m's have the sloted design, and of course the slants are the R40's and the R40M's have the same fronts as the R42's. The R40/40M's have the same motors, the GE 1257E1's @ 115HP. While the R42's have the Westinghouse 1447J @ 115Hp. The R32 and R38's are completely different they do not look the same at all. The R32's have the flutted bodies and the R-38's are smooth with flutted bottoms. The R32's are from Budd and the R38's are from St. Louis Car, the R40/40M's and R42's are all from the same manufacturer St. Louis Car, even though they were different contracts.
Peace
DaShawn
Ah, but the ultimate question is: was it a solid train of R-40Ms? They're almost always found in the same train as their R-42 cousins.
I remember riding R-42s on the N back in July of 1971. They were FAST! I'll bet they hit 50 on the 4th Ave. run without breaking a sweat.
I saw a train of R40Ms today also on the N... I couldn't catch if it was solid or mixed with R42s...
Mike
I made sure to stick around and see, It was a full set of R40M's, not one R42 in the consist.
Peace
DaShawn
As Mel Allen used to say, how about that?
In response to those who asked for it, here is the current (3/99) trackless roster for SEPTA:
110 tracklesses on system, all '79 AM General
800-09 equipped with front-door wheelchair lift (first SEPTA vehicles to have lifts), 42 passenger capacity
Remainder (810-909) have 46 passenger capacity
Based at Southern Depot for Routes 29 and 79 - 24 vehicles:
810-14, 16-24, 26-28, 30, 32-34, 36-38
Based at Frankford Depot for Routes 59, 66 and 75 - 42 vehicles:
815, 25, 29, 42, 45, 46, 48-50, 53, 57, 58, 61, 63, 64, 66, 67, 71, 74, 76, 78-80, 82, 84-88, 90-92, 95-99, 902, 03, 05, 08, 09
Other 44 in storage at various sites, most at Germantown Depot.
Allegedly, 843 never operated and may never have even had poles installed.
Thanks Bob! I'll add this to the roster ASAP.
-Dave
The past couple of days I have noticed quite a few R-32s on the R... then today I saw that the E had tons of R-46s. Did the R and E swap cars or something? I did also see a train of slants on the B as mentioned before on this board.
Mike
R-46s are running on the E even off-peak. This morning I caught the 5:06 a.m. from WTC; it was an R-46.
This weekend,162 R-32s changed home. 82 Jamaica R-32 Phase Is went to Pitkin and 80 Coney Island R-32 Phase IIs went to Jamaica. Since the 'R' goes to bed on the weekend nights, having R-32s in R service makes them available for transfer once the railroad is put to bed.
Beginning Monday AM, there will be 26 E-Trains instead of the normal 22. At the same time, there will be 4 less F trains. Since the number of R-32s at Jamaica Shop was decreased by two, you can expect to see 4-5 R-46s on the E-Line daily until October.
Less F trains! Somebody going to complain shortly......
The reduction in F service will barely be perceptable, especially in Queens where the reduction will be off-set by an equivalent increase in E service. If you do the math, the change in headways in Brooklyn should be less than 1 minute and, therefore, virtually un-noticable. Where there will be a noticable difference should be on the 8th Avenue corridor where increased A, C & E service may lead to some congestion.
I couldn't summed it up better!!!
Why can't the C train be extended to Leffert Blvd. since the MTA has decided to let it run in Brooklyn during the weekends, too.
That way the A train could run only to Far Rockaway, full time and still provide service to Rockaway Park during rush hours.
If anyone was going to ask, run a shuttle train from Euclid to Lefferts during Late nights like they do already.
Any input????
And they could call the now-nameless Lefferts shuttle a 'C' train.
But I doubt that the demand is there.
If they ran ALL the "A" to Far Rockaway there would be a glut of trains serving that line - they need lots of trains on the "A", especially now with the Williamsburg Bridge closure. Plus there's the turnaround capability at Euclid Avenue. One solution could be to run the "C" to Lefferts and eliminate the "S" shuttle, sending the former Lefferts "A"s to Rockaway Park. Or send the "C" there (they used to do this back in the 70s) and keep the split "A" service to Lefferts and Far Rockaway. As was posted earlier, though, the demand for this kind of service may not be present to warrant it.
Wayne
Read my post about the Willy B service. Same deal. I agree with you though.
one answer for not extending A to Rock Park especially on weekend COST!
low ridership is one reason to Rockaway Park
OPTO they're (MTA) saving a bundle by operating a 4 car R44 eqipped train with only the Train Operator.
How many more trains would be needed if all A trains ran to Far Rock and the C ran to Lefferts? (At least Monday to Friday except after 8-9 pm. After that a shuttle could serve Lefferts?)
That what I mean..There shouldn't be any problem and that way, the A's could go to Far Rock and the C's to Lefferts. What is 7 more stops on the C going to do??
The point is, you would need lots more cars. And the TA doesn't have them!
Is getting the Lefferts and Far Rockaway A trains confused is a problem for A line riders? Because that's why I thought the C should go to Lefferts. But if there aren't enough cars for the C to be sent there, then why not simply rename the Lefferts branch the K train. That would do away with any confusion as to where the train is headed. And while we're at it, the Rockaway Park shuttle should be the H train again (How many S's can we have?). And this way you could have the same amount of equipment running on the A line. The only difference would be that Lefferts-bound trains say K and Rockaway-bound trains say A. Maybe the A could continue to run express evenings and weekends in Brooklyn as well.
This is one instance where having front end destination roller curtains would really come in handy. They should have been kept on the R-32s and R-38s. I always like to know where my train is headed as soon as it pulls into the station.
Oh yes, that's another thing. With no front end destination sign, it's even more confusing!
I rest my case. At least the Redbirds still have those good old roller curtains up front.
And the 110B's have some destinations on the front signs right below the route bullet.
Assuming that (now that there are more R32s on the "A") you can see what the sign says. Next to impossible on some of them, though I hear the situation (at least at Jamaica yard) is improving...
Where's my Windex(TM)?
Wayne
The only stretch where the R-32 pixel signs can be a hassle would be where the A and C share trackage between Canal St. and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Otherwise, A trains have the express tracks all to themselves along the rest of their route, both in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Of course, if you throw in the E where it shares the 8th Ave. local tracks with the C... Maybe it's just as well that some R-46s are back on the E.
Cant use the H and K!!! Those are taken for my proposed subway line:):):):)
Would this work:
1- Run all A trains to Far Rock (At same gap as is present for Rockaway trains.)--no more trains- and run Fulton express when C is running)
2- RUn the C train-same gap as current A to Lefferts--via local.
3- late nite A runs as it does now.
Net result: All A to Far Rock and All C to Lefferts and no more trains needed? (Maybe the gap could even be reduced-say 14 rather than 15?)
That'swhat I said in the beginning...Too bad the MTA won't consideer it...Also, why is the M train running to Marcy Avenue instead of the J..I mean...COMMON SENSE!!!!!
See my previous post for the answer. Many C line jobs are 3 trips. By extending the line to Lefferts Blvd., many more crews would be needed thereby increasing operating costs. There is no way the crews could do 3 trips under that setup.
Roman,
It would probably be about as effective as the old (C) running to Rockaway Park or the old (R) running to 179th St-Jamaica. I have always assumed that those two lines failed due to the fact that nobody wanted to get on a local at that great a distance from downtown or midtown Manhattan. I'm quite sure that 1) nobody ever got on an (R) at 179th St, but everyone crowded into the (F) and 2) everyone getting on the (C) at Rockaway Park got off at Broad Channel to catch a presumably already crowded (A).
Bob Sklar
In response to recent inquiries concerning publications from Silver Leaf Rapid Transit (Models), I've made a first stab at a more or less comprehensive listing.
Go to
http://www.rapidtransit.net and follow the links.
Comments welcome.
My parents are in town, staying at a hotel in Manhattan. After they visited us in Brooklyn, I drove them in, and on the way home, I took the lower level of the Manhattan Bridge. I noticed that the posted speed was only 25 miles per hour, and said to myself I wonder what would happen if I obeyed the speed limit?
Here's what happened. Two-thirds the way across the span I caught a D train of R68s from behind. And blew by it.
Even the Slant R40s on the "Q" kowtow to the restricted speed on the Manhattan Bridge. Back on March 15, we crossed the bridge aboard #4150 at a maximum speed of 25MPH on the downgrade. Uphill we never made it to 20.
Wayne
[My parents are in town, staying at a hotel in Manhattan. After they visited us in Brooklyn, I drove them in, and on the way home, I took the lower level of the Manhattan Bridge. I noticed that the posted speed was only 25 miles per hour, and said to myself I wonder what would happen if I obeyed the speed limit?
Here's what happened. Two-thirds the way across the span I caught a D train of R68s from behind. And blew by it.]
That could be why the pedestrian walkway hasn't been opened - it would be too embarassing for the Transit Authority when walkers leave the trains in the dust :-)
Brian Cudahy's original edition of Under the Sidewalks of New York mentions a downgrade speed limit of 15 mph on the bridge. One of the epilogue's footnotes reads: "Descending the steep grades of the Manhattan Bridge has always been the ultimate test of a motorman's skill." It was probably even more of a chore before SMEE braking came on the scene. The second edition points out that 3-car BX units of BMT standards (with a motorless trailer in the middle) were banned from the bridge, possibly because of concerns that such a train wouldn't have the horses to make it across. Occasionally, one would manage to sneak across.
I'm going to cut the R-68s some slack on this one. (Gasp!)
HeY Hey HEy----The MTA needs to release glow-in-the-dark Metrocards. What a fun and exciting way to boost MTA sales and ridership. I know I would buy one. The extra $$$$$ from the sales could help get rid of that piss odor at various stations and trains.
And the $$$ can also allow the MTA to afford glass or plastic covered maps at various elevated stations, so dumb punks can't write their gang slogans over them or write Mike loves Jenny on them that makes it totally impossible to find what line to take and defeats the purpose of having a map at a station in the first place. I know the maps are free----but come on MTA, invest a little dinero to protect them from these elements. Please feel free to leave any comments
I like that idea! I would definitly buy one in a heart beat. I hope that someone from the MTA is reading this because they do need something to protect the maps subway.
Peace
DaShawn
Hey I'm all for this idea too - now if the MTA forgets to turn the lights on in the train when in a tunnel -- which has happened to me twice on the N train -- we can still find our Metrocards!
What an awesome idea Casey!!!! That's totally funky and brilliant all at the same time. The MTA needs cool people lke you to run this organization:)
Awesome idea. I'm with you on this. I like your ideas and comments!
Plastic covered maps would seem like the most logical thing for the MTA to do. The map situation is not just a problem w/ elevated stations, but underground ones too.
Awesome idea. I'm with you on this. I like your ideas and
comments!
Plastic covered maps would seem like the most logical
thing for the MTA to do. The map situation is not just a
problem w/ elevated stations, but underground ones too.
Never leave home without your Glow-in-the Dark card.
I like the idea too.
COOL IDEA!
I meant to say never leave home without your Glow-in-the-dark Metrocard.
Forget about Glow-in-the Dark Metrocards. How about Glow-in-the-Dark subway trains!!!!!! Oh yeah
Glow in the dark trains is a stupid idea. That would be a waste of money and what would be the point. Every subway station is lighted. I think you need a glow in the dark brain.
I think you need a glow in the dark penis.
But if ta gave a fuck it would be a miracle !
Really? If the prospect of having glow-in-the-dark Metrocards is in any way profitable for the MTA, they may make a little peek at the idea, but no more.
And yes, I know the centennial is going to be reached soon. Personally, I can think of a whole lot better things than glowing MC's.
#3 West End Jeff
I was looking at the Car Roster and I just wanted confirmation on what I think I saw. All the wooden composite Hi-V cars are gone?
Composites?? They were retired in the late 1950s.
Not one saved.
Jeff, If you don't mind ... how is what he's talking about different from #3662 at Branford ?
Mr t__:^)
The Composites had wooden sides with steel undercarriages. Their sides were tapered slightly. Originally delivered without center doors, these were added subsequently. They were banished to the els in, I believe, 1916.
3662 is an all-steel Hi-V, just like Gibbs 3352. These are the only two surviving Hi-Vs anywhere.
The Composites could, and did, run in m. u. with the all-steel Hi-Vs, but the IRT held its breath when running such mixed consists. A collision would mean disaster.
Actually..I believe that the California State Railway Museum (of all places..) has one...because a few of the Composites were sent to California during WWII to be used as transportation for war workers...(i.e. as coaches behind steam..)
Really? I will make some phone calls on this-
If so, I'll be making a trip up to Sacramento soon! Thanks for the tip!
I just looked at the roster for the California Railway Museum and the only rapid transit cars on the list are Manhattan Elevated #844 and #889 built in 1886 by Gilbert. They did run in the Richmond Shipyards during the war.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't recall seeing IRT cars at the California State RR Museum, but I was in some IRT Second Av El cars that had been in use on the WEst Coast during WWII when we visited Rio Vista a few years back during the ERA convention in San Francisco. The cars were in sad shape but have potential for restoration with a lot of tender loving care.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Those are the ones that the previous poster meant. They are at Rio Vista (Western Railway Museum). Unfortunately when I was there in 1996 I wasn't aware of the El cars' existance and did not seek them out.
-Dave
As noted in other posts, the 2 cars out at Bay Area are
not composites. They are Manhattan Railways el cars, originally
built as steam trailers and assigned to the 2nd Ave el line.
They were rebuilt as motor cars ca. 1903 and retired from the NY
system in the mid-1940s. Those 2 cars were used as switchers
at a shipyard in California for about 2 years. Now they are
preserved at Bay Area. I don't know about their operational status.
The composites lasted a little bit longer in NY, being retired
in the early 1950s. There are rumors that some composite car
bodies lived on as summer cottages, toolsheds, etc., and that
somewhere in this world there may be a body or two. You can forget
about the compressors, trucks, motors, controls or anything else
metal with scrap value.
I've been told that a fairly large number of composite bodies - upwards of 40 - made their way to Rockland County as cabins at a summer camp there. They were burned in the early '70s though after the camp closed. As I recall, they replaced trolley car bodies that had been used since the '30s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I recall correctly, there was a photo of these cars in the 1997 or 1998 NY Subways Calendar put out by Newkirk Images.
Anyone have one of those I could see a scan of, out of curiousity?
1995 calendar has two shots:
- March 3667, probally same as Branford 3662, i.e. steel
- May 3359 on Pelham Bay line
1998 - October = maybe a Hi-V at City Hall, fan trip ?
I don't have '97 & will leave it to others to ID if these are steel or composite.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, 3667 was a sister of 3662. Both were Gibbs deck roof Hi-Vs, part of a 50-car fleet. They were designed to have center doors added later, which is precisely what happened. Apparently, this design compensated for structural stability with the center door added, because these cars did not have fish belly sills. Check out 3662 at Shore Line and see for yourself.
3359 would have been an original Gibbs Hi-V, seven numbers removed from Seashore's 3352.
I didn't think either of the calendar photos was a composite, thanks for clarifing.
[Check out 3662 at Shore Line and see for yourself.
3359 would have been an original Gibbs Hi-V, seven numbers removed from Seashore's 3352.]
Steve B, I case you haven't heard Shore Line will be rolling out 3662 to play with the other NYC Trolley/Subways this June, so if you're in town, maybe I'll see you there. Missed the "members" day because my wife wanted to visit our son in Del. (it got posponed a week).
Seashore ... hope to get up there this summer !
Thought I might get to Kingston this Sat., but it's too much out of my way to Binghamton (can't leave NYC until after lunch).
Mr t__:^)
One more tidbit concerning the Composites: their numbering sequence started in the 2000s; they carried lower numbers than the all-steel Hi-Vs.
The 1997 calendar has a picture of something related to this, but not the camp with PCCs. It's the picture for March 1997. The caption reads:
Closure of Manhattan's 2nd and 9th Ave ELs brought on a surplus of cars and opportunities of what to do with them. One was seized by the NYC Dept of Sanitation. Several cars were acquired and trucked upstate to Holmes, NY. The resort known as "Sanita Hills" was a special getaway for sanitation employees. Later it was acquired by a boy scout camp and named "Camp Sanita". The wooden El cars lasted until 1976 when a land developer burned them.
Speaking of PCCs, for the longest time, there used to be a PCC car body in a field which is now a municipal parking lot in Brighton Beach between Brighton 2nd and 4th Streets at the Boardwalk. I remember it as a kid, painted green and rotting away.
--Mark
--Mark
[The resort known as "Sanita Hills" was a special getaway for sanitation employees. Later it was acquired by a boy scout camp and named "Camp Sanita". The wooden El cars lasted until 1976 when a land developer burned them.]
My son & I camped there one winter in the 80's (our Troop did a "winter" camp out in a different camp each year ... we even had a supervised snow ball fight). We stayed in what looked like an overgrown car garage, big roll up doors, etc. Saw no evidence of trolley car bodies. Shortly after our stay the Boy Scouts sold the property.
Mr t__:^)
If I'm not mistaken, the car body that you saw at Brighton Beach was not that of a PCC but of a Trolley Coach!
If you wanted to see an old BKLYN PCC all you had to do up to the 1970s was to go to the Hammels in the Rockaways, there was a kids camp that had originally 6 PCCs, then at the end only 3 were left.
OH WELL, "Gimme dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me!"
Wait a minute ... I think it was Rockaway - not Rockland County. I vaguely recall a summer camp on the way out to Far Rockaway that had PCC bodies as cabins, all painted with bright colors ....
--Mark
I was referring to the subway bodies, not the PCC car bodies (hadn't heard of them, in fact, until you mentioned it). The Camp Sanitas reference in another branch of this thread is what I was thinking of.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Around 8 PM Saturday 5/1/99, the frist slant R40 train arrived at Metropolitan Ave. from ENYD. By 11 PM, the line had 3/8 car R40 slants availiable for service. 2 were running, and 1 was a station gap. For Monday AM rush service to Marcy Ave., all 3 trains will be cut 4x4 with 5 on the road, and a 4 car gap in FPYD. All cars have a yellow triangle (pointing downward) under one number board designating a side sign modification: The useless Crescent St. designation had a Marcy Ave. terminal decal placed over it. I took a round trip from Met to Bway/Myrtle on one, and it ran like a charm! I always thought the lowest pair was 4398/99, but 4392/93 & 4396/97 were out there. Wayne: what was the lowest numbered pair you saw when all the ENY slants were on the L?
#4398-4399 were the lowest pair in regular service on the "L". They had #4202-4203 running out there a few years back (late 1997) but I do believe they have been reassigned to the "Q".
If you see #4416-4417 please let me know - these haven't been seen for quite some time and I'm wondering what their current status is.
Thanks, Bill
Wayne
I had it on one of my trips last nite.It was in the middle of the consist.I had 4409 on one of my trips as a South motor,it was a very fast train.I'm glad we have them on the M line until October.
Back on Nov 7 1998 I had the double pleasure of the company of Mr. Simon Billis (of Swindon, UK) and #4399 to take us through the 14th Street tube to Brooklyn. #4399 is one fast machine. Perhaps they've given her some Wheaties (maybe #4409 too). She shot through the tunnel at 50MPH, and her operator (while I don't necessarily agree with his/her tactics here) played the GT's like pinballs, charging right up to the yellows and knocking them down to greens without an ounce of fear. I remarked to Simon while we were gazing into the gloom from #4399's long RF window that if she happened to trip one of those nasty little suckers, we'd probably wind up in the last car of the train (only kidding!).
Another fast Slant is #4314, pride of the "Q" line, though I am beginning to think that all 272 of them are capable of such feats.
Wayne
Wayne
Wow, do I remember that trip. My first on a slant R40. You could just catch the signal changing to green if you looked hard right out of the Railfan Window. We were really cooking on that L train. Wayne remarked at the time that the Slants were capable of even better performance. I thought we were going fast enough the tunnel was just a blur.
With all of the people who contribute to subtalk is it worth having a "save the railfan window campaign". Nice thought.
Simon
Swindon UK
Slants? L train? i thought they were on the Q B F lines good performence>? help
There hasn't been a Slant R40 on the "F" line since the mid-to-late 1970s. They went from the "E" and "F" to the "A" (and occasionally "AA") then to the "B" (and occasionally the "D") then they went into General Overhaul in 1989, returning to the "B" with a few on the "N". The 4400 series went to the "L". In late 1997 there was a general swap between the "B" and the "Q", and through 1998 there have been more R40 reported on the "N". Currently on the weekends, R40's have been reported on the "B" as well.
Currently the R40 MDBF is in excess of 100,000 miles. Not too shabby.
Wayne
I wonder if that distinctive track joint is still in place in the Brooklyn-bound tube of the 14th St. tunnel. Back in the days when I was a regular Saturday commuter on the Canarsie, I would hear a very audible "ka-thunk" repeated in each car as the train would pass over a certain expansion joint. You could even see it through the front window; it was located at the point where the upgrade has just begun. The rails didn't appear to line up precisely. I would be very surprised if that joint were still the same 29 years later.
I have to correct myself again - there aren't 272 Slants left - there are 292!
/Sorry for any misinformation\
Wayne
...that if she happened to trip one of those nasty little suckers, we'd probably wind up in the last car of the train (only kidding!)
I hate (read:love) to nitpick, but if you did come to a sudden stop, you would likely end up on the tracks, not in the last car. An object in motion tends to stay in motion, until it hits an immovable object (or expends its energy against a source of friction), in your case, likely the roadbed, if you went through the window.
-Hank :)
You're right. The only way you'd wind up in the last car would be if the train were to peel out from a dead stop. If the multisectionals were still around, it just might happen.
Thanks Mike for the info regarding #4416-17; I hadn't seen them since 1997, last spotted on the "L". I thought maybe something had happened to them. I am aware of #4427 and #4428 being laid up with broken noses and anticlimbers, facing an uncertain future. I wonder if they plan to repair them.
Wayne
I saw 4392-93 on the test train to Marcy ave tonight.
Correction, 4394-95.
Further to my recent posts, anyone coming to London watch out for the
following closure:
NORTHERN LINE closed for a 9 (nine) Week period from 3rd July until
5th September between MOORGATE and KENNINGTON on what is the BANK Branch of the Northern line.
This closure is to allow tunnel improvement work and the withdrawl of
several speed restrictions as a result.
Normal service on all other parts of the line (CHARING CROSS Branch) and trains will still serve stations on the "Bank Branch" upto Moorgate, where services will reverse using the emergency crossover.
I wonder if it will be like the closure of the "Willy Bridge"services in New York lol lol, riders forced onto bus services or other lines
both sides of the Atlantic!.
.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
In the NY Post Sunday May 1, page 12, is an article about the Subway Stabber who sneaks up behind women in the subway stations and pricking their buttocks with a sharp object.
Also at the top of the article is a picture of Edgar Rivera who was shoved on to the 51st and Lexington Ave Station #6 line.
After the excellent folks of SubTalk read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
In the NY Post Sunday May 1, page 18, is a small article on the Williamsburg Bridge shutdown on the M,J,Z trains that begins on Monday May 3.
After the Excellent folks of SubTalk read the article, your thoughts again are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Make the date on the articles Sunday May 2 from the NY Post.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Does the TA still maintain any distinction between historical BMT and IND routes. Have the pick lists been completely merged--i.e.: can the same operating personnel pick either, say, an "A" line or an "L" line run?
If not, how would we decide (just for discussion purposes) which routes are "BMT" and which are "IND"?
Of course, some are obvious--the N Line or anything on the Eastern Division are distinctly BMT. Other than that, we might count routes which don't run to IND outer borough terminals (B or Q) as BMT.
Another way might be to count lines based at an IND yard such as Jamaica as IND, from Coney Island as BMT.
There are geographical & political differences between the IND & BMT. Several lines are considered both BMT & IND depending on location. When a train crosses that line (which varies in location), they move from B-1 (BMT) to B-2(IND) control. Some of those lines are:
D-train in IND from Grand St. north and BMT from the Manhattan Bridge Portal, south. Ditto for the Q and the B.
The F train is BMT from Stillwell Ave to Ditmas Ave. From Church Ave, it becomes IND.
R-train is BMT from 95th St through Manhattan to the 11th St. cut
where it becomes IND to Continental Ave.
A,C, E, & G are strictly IND
J, L, M, N, & Z are strictly BMT
Steve: Wasn't the part of the BMT Culver line south of Ditmas Av formally transfered to the IND back in 1954 like the Astoria was formally transfered from the IRT to the BMT back in 1949? The line was resignalled also from the BMT Culver "C" to the IND Sixth Av "B".
Larry,RedbirdR33
You may be correct, however, if memory serves me correctly, when an incident occurs, the determination as to who handles it is dependent on that invisible line between Church Av. and Ditmas. Any 'F' line T/Os or C/Rs to either confirm or correct that?
Steve: I just happened to be looking in Dougherty's track book and he shows a change in the road radio channel south of Church Av from B1 to B2.
It would be interesting to see a copy of the Bulletin Order that implemented the change back in 1954.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'm sure you are not referring to a bulletin about radios as i don't think radios were used that far back...
Steve: What I was referring to was the Bulletin Order that would have been issued back in 1954 conveying authority of train movements on the Culver Line from the BMT to the IND.
I have a copy of Bulletin Order #1949-11 that formally transfered the Astoria Line to the BMT Division and it contains much useful information. I wonder if anyone has copies of old Bulletin Orders?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry: Any chance you could get that Order scanned and posted here?
Dan: If you want to e-mail me I'll try to send it to you via e-mail.
Larry,RedbirdR33 @hotmail
< The F train is BMT from Stillwell Ave to Ditmas Ave. From Church Ave, it becomes IND. >
<
< R-train is BMT from 95th St through Manhattan to the 11th St. cut
where it becomes IND to Continental Ave. >
Interesting, if official. In pre-Chrystie days the Culver "D" was strictly IND, while the BMT local operation on the IND Queens line was a BMT operation.
And the "L" train is BMT from Rockaway Parkway to Atlantic Ave. It is IND north of that station.
No no no! The "L" is entirely BMT. The subway portion was built by the BMT and opened in 1924-1928, well before the IND.
Check out The Canarsie Line for a brief history.
-Dave
The "L" is as BMT as it gets - the two major underground sections opened in 1924 and 1928 respectively, several years before the IND opened. The 8th Avenue station, which was added later, and opened in 1931, DOES feature IND architecture and wall tile, but so did Broad Street and Fulton Street on the Nassau line before their early 1990's makeovers. 8th Avenue is also in the process of getting a makeover - there's a glimpse of some kind of new wall tile on the south side tracks but it's too soon to tell exactly what it's going to look like. It won't look like the other Canarsie Line stations, that much is for sure. Too bad.
Wayne
[The "L" is as BMT as it gets - the two major underground sections opened in 1924 and 1928 respectively, several years before the IND opened. The 8th Avenue station, which was added later, and opened in 1931, DOES feature IND architecture and wall tile, but so did Broad Street and Fulton Street on the Nassau line before their early 1990's
makeovers.]
I also suspect that if the Manhattan portions of the L had been built under IND auspices, there would have been a track connection with the IND at 8th Avenue. That sure would come in handy today ...
I would have to believe the S. 4th St. subway would have competed directly with the Broadway-Brooklyn and Canarsie lines, had it been built.
Back to the IND/BMT issue, what about the eastern leg of the Fulton St. el where the A runs today? Is it considered BMT at all today?
It should be considered a BMT, since it resembles the F going into the Culver elevated line.
Not quite the same - the F goes to a BMT terminal, used by several other BMT lines; there are no other (non-IND) lines using or connecting to the old Fulton el structure.
I must say this is a subject that has bedeviled me since Chrystie St opened. Prior to that there were three divisions and every route was either IRT,BMT or IND. Even the BMT #2(RR) service to Forest Hills was a BMT route even though it ran on the IND in Queens.
The B was essentially a blending of two services; the IND BB and the BMT T. When the the Manhattan Bridge troubles started about twelve years ago the B sometimes runs on Broadway, but the B West End Shuttle always runs entirely on the BMT.
The D was an still is primarily an IND route that was rerouted to the BMT south of Bway-Lafayette, until.... the Manhattan Bridge troubles.
The EE replaced a popular BMT service,Bway-Forest Hills yet I believe it was maintained at the Jamaica IND Yard.(I could be wrong on that)
The KK,later K was a BMT route that was simply routed to the IND in Manhattan as oppossed to Canal St which was the ancestoral home of the old Bway-Bkyln Shortline service.
The QB,later Q was a BMT route, until(here we go again) the Manhattan Bridge troubles. Yet I still think of it as a BMT route using the IND temporarily.
The S 6 Av Shuttle,Grand St Shuttle or 63 St Shuttle was an all IND route until the past year when it ran on Bway and carried Yellow route signs.
Which brings up another point; the B,D,Q, and S 6 Av all can carry either orange route signs for 6 Av or yellow for Bway, so are they IND or BMT?
These of course are only my opinions. I'd like to hear how some of my colleagues out there would classify these routes.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Both divisions are now technically combined. On maps a few years ago, mention of IRT, BMT, & IND was nonexistent. Because the B division is so big, Control Center seperates the BMT from IND routes for reporting purposes. When a train crosses into a ":new" territory, the crew is required to change their radio frequency from B1 to B2 or B2 to B1 whichever is appropriate. Yes, thre old EE's cars were maintained at Jamaica Yard.
Bill: Forgive my ignorance but was does RDO stand for?
Thanks,Larry,Redbird R33
RDO = Regular Day Off
I always called them based on the location of the train at the time. I got into that habit from the old days when the subway maps actually said "BMT in Brooklyn" for both the B & D lines. When the Manhattan Bridge madness started I referred to the B & D trains on the Broadway BMT as BMT trains and those on 6 Ave as IND trains.
Wayne
Wayne; This is one of those little conundrums that can drive you mad one minute and yet make railfaning so interesting the next. I keep a list of what lines I've ridden and used to do it by division since that was what I grew up with;ie three divisions. Chrystie Street put a monkey wrench in my well ordered system,not to mention the later Manhattan Bridge follies.
In truth the BMT never left and is still with us(with a few exceptions such as the Culver Shuttle and 168 St-Jamaica). Those marvelous els,open cuts, raised embankments, surface rights-of way all make for very interesting riding, while the original subterranean IND only ventures above ground for a senic view of the Gowanus Canal.
(Alright so you can see the Manhattan Skyline if you look the other way).And here I am an IRT fan heaping all this praise on the BMT. August Belmont must be turning in his grave.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,
You're right - It certainly can make one go crazy. I think I will always hold on to our beloved BMT, IND and IRT lables. I do say A and B division at times, but not too often. I also do this on the Bus side with TA and OA. I really don't like the TA's new division names. I must be a rebel, because I don't like the MTA/NYCT name at all. I still ask myself what was wrong with NYCTA.
Another thing (with the NYCT name) is that on subways cars and buses. It seems very strange to have a bus with a decal that reads: "New York City Bus" or a subway car whose decal reads "New York City Subway". I think a decal reading "New York City Transit" makes more sense.
Wayne
So I'm not the only one who thinks the exact same thing.
I guess the TA must think it's riders are morons who can't tell the difference between a bus and a train.
And I also agree with you on the NYCT vs. NYCTA.
"NYCTA" just looks and sounds better, for some reason. Seems more "commanding" (the best I can describe it, anyway).
Same goes for the so-called Long Island Bus.
"Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority" sounds much better.
And how about MTA Bridges and Tunnels?
I wanna puke every time I see or hear that!!!
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE "TRIBOROUGH BRIDGE AND TUNNEL AUTHORITY"!!!!!!!!!!!
And I guess MaBSTOA is now some strange word that gets me weird looks every time I say it . . .
< Re: removing "Authority" from "friendly" agency names >
The MTA (shouldn't we just say "MT") decided, in the post cold-war world, that "Authority" sounded too, well, authoritarian. I guess the new names are fuzzy and friendly.
But is not to worry, Komrad, _legally_ it's _still_ "New York City Transit Authority", "Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority", and so on...
There is another MTA down in Baltimore, but it stands for the Mass Transit Administration of the Maryland Department of Transportation.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, I think the State of Maryland likes "Administration". Ex. Their DMV is called MVA - Motor Vehicle Administration.
Wayne
The only good thing that came out of that MTA name game was renaming the Metro-North Commuter Railroad simply the Metro-North Railroad.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah! I'd bet that some person(s) got a fortune to think of these new names. Go figure!
Wayne
Or perhaps a lifetime pass for free travel.
The "consultant" that recommended the name and logo change received $3 million, if I recall correctly.
I would charge only $1.2 million to tell the MT(A) that the old logo and names were just fine.
--Mark
Find the Triborough Tunnel on a map. That's the reason they gave to the press. I think 'Bridges and Tunnels' is much better suited to the agency; Triborough' in the name implies only 3 boroughs are served, or they are only in charge of the Triborough Bridge.
-Hank
What was Triborough when they made the change? Sixty years old or so? And for the past 35 the people on Staten Island have had a pretty good idea Triborough/MTA was running the Verrazano.
Between that and the "New York City Bus" designation, the MTA must have decided to label everything they run so that even the most idiotic person couldn't mistake what it was (we've come a long way from when the state put "Omnibus" on its license plates)
Wayne: I couldn't agree more. I never did like the MTA name as it could be used for any metropolitan area anywhere. Now take London Transport or Metropolitano de Madrid or Toronto Transit Commission. There not ashamed to say where they operate.
I know I raised the problem of TA/OA bus routes here before and I still am puzzelled by that byzantine relationship.
I like the old designations of the three divisions. Your right though it does seem a little superfluous to have a label reading "New York City Bus." Well this is New York City and yes it is a bus. Talk about redundancy.
If you don't mind please contact me at RedbirdR33 @hotmail.com. I would like to talk about the aforementioned TA/OA Manhattan Routes.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I guess I'm a real `living in the past' type of guy -- not only d think `New York City Bus' is so obvious to the point of usslessness (unless someone steals an M-104 and drives it to Wyoming, I guess), I was never that fond of the original M-Transit logo, let alone the new design. It may be I associate it with the onset of the graffiti plague and the height of deferred maintenance, but I prefer the old TA logo on the R-32s through the R-40s, or even the earlier `New York City Transit System' one they put on the R-26s through the R-33/36 mainlines.
Also the 1967 post-Chrystie subway map with the TA logo on it and all the short-lived lines (NX, RJ, etc.) was the coolest looking one, after the three-color model of the 50s and early 60s.
It is interesting that the TA still uses the old divisional designations on the red emergency exit information signs posted at the ends of all subway platforms. They give the station name,line, and a track diagram. They use names such as IRT Broadway-7Av Line,BMT Nassau Line and IND Crosstown Line.
Larry,Redbird R33
You're right - they sure do. They even say, "You are here". I personally still use IRT, BMT, and IND (or 8th Ave.) when referring to various lines. For instance, the N/R in Manhattan is still the BMT Broadway line to me. Ditto with IRT 7th Ave. and IRT Lexington Ave. The L is still the Canarsie to me, while the 7 is still the 7 and the J is still the J. The Brighton, Sea Beach, Culver, and West End don't need any explanation.
The A will always be the A, with or without the R-10s.
Yes, why did they get rid of the old TA logo. If you still want to see it, take a ride to Coney Island on the F. It's on a electric substation structure that's located just before where the F connects with the D at West 8th Street.
Yes, why did they get rid of the old TA logo. If you still want to see it, take a ride to Coney Island on the F. It's on a electric substation structure that's located just before where the F connects with the D at West 8th Street. Bring back the old TA logo!
You needn't go that far. I believe that most R-38s have the old logo on the #1 end bulkhead.
Didn't the red NYCT logos get put on the R38s during the GOH? I don't remember seeing them there before then.
Wayne
Didn't the R-10s have the TA logo on their end bulkheads at one time? There is a head end photo in Under the Sidewalks of New York of an R-10 in the teal and white paint scheme with the logo plainly visible. I remember that paint scheme very well, but can't recall seeing the TA logo.
Only a handful of R-10s got the TA logo when they repainted them in the blue-and-white World's Fair color scheme.
BTW: What really looked awful was when they stuck those MTA logos over the TA plaques that were half the size of the originals. As much as taking away the blue doors and the illegible front end route sign, I think rthose messed up the look of the R-32s.
The R-32s originally had the same front end route and destination roller curtains that the other R units before them had. It's the electronic signs they currently have which I find objectionable. I remember those cars when they were brand new and miss the blue doors the most; that was their trademark.
Oh yes, I've seen that logo on the R-38s. Nice to see it there and I'm glad the MTA hasn't decided to get rid of it. But the logo I meant to say was the old "ta" logo with the T and the A in squarish lower case letters connected to each other. It's the one that apperared on the sides of the R-32s, R-36s (the only IRT cars to wear that great logo), R-38s, and R-40s. I wish other IRT cars that ran on the 2 line had the "ta" logo, but they already had the boring "M" logo applied to their sides. When I was a kid, seeing the "ta" on BMT/IND cars made me jealous of those who got to ride them. So did the blue doors on the sides of the R-32 and the front of the R-42.
Hey..at least some intepid souls have been determined to keep "Sea Beach", "Culver", and "Brighton" alive..at least semi-officially...
Those titles still appear on subway maps as labels next to the appropriate route. In addition, the R-32s and R-38s have those titles on their side route roller curtains for each pertinent route. For example, on an N of R-32s, you'll see N/Astoria-B'wy-Sea Beach.
I have always considered the B and D as being IND routes. In fact, I think of the D whenever the R-1/9s come up in discussion, probably because the very first IND train I ever rode on was a D of those venerable veterans on April 30, 1967. Yep, 32 years last Friday. So was my first express dash up CPW on November 24 of that year. To quote Nat King Cole in one of his songs, "Well, the years have gone by, too fast, it seems..."
The Q is a BMT route, as far as I'm concerned, since it carries a letter which was part of the BMT letter code when it was implemented. I see it as being temporarily routed up 6th Ave. Temporary is a relative term anyway.
Speaking of the Q, I can vaguely remember seeing such a train in July of 1967. The letter up front looked big, so I assume it would have been a train of R-32s. The R-27/30s still had Q-Broadway/Brighton signs at the time.
Yes, one may pick an RDO relief job in which one day you will be all IND, another day all BMT and another a line which traverses both divisions. Breakdowns of lines for pick purposes: North: A, C, H, J/Z, L, M. Queens: E, F, G, R. South: B, D, N, Q.
Paul, here's something very interesting while on the subject of the original Transit line designations:
On the Willy B. fan trip friday I handed out some 'souveniors' to the gang -- DOT created Willy B Reconstruction brochures (I could perhaps send you one?) -- that mention the work that is to happen in the coming months. All over the booklet are references to the 'reconstruciton of the BMT transit structure'. In this day and age you would have thought that the authors would have the booklets read 'reconstruction of the NYCT structure'. So, this city produced document is in a sense a 'throwback' in it's use of the terminology for the Broadway line.
Would love to here your opinion on this.
Doug aka BMTman
Since you cant send to everyone- can you summarize and post on SubTalk?
< Paul, here's something very interesting while on the subject of the original Transit line designations: >
< On the Willy B. fan trip friday I handed out some 'souveniors' to the gang -- DOT created Willy B Reconstruction brochures (I could perhaps send you one?) -- that mention the work that is to happen in the coming months. All over the booklet are references to the 'reconstruciton of the BMT transit structure'. In this day and age you would have thought that the authors would have the booklets read 'reconstruction of the NYCT structure'. So, this city produced document is in a sense a 'throwback' in it's use of the terminology for the Broadway line. >
< Would love to here your opinion on this. >
Well, the short answer is that the BMT as a corporate entity lasted until 1943, having passed the properties over which it was a holding company to the City of New York in 1940. So, for dates after that, it is not always possible to consistently follow the reasoning one or another agency uses to refer to something as "BMT".
To be more specific, with railroads especially, lease agreements, mortgage arrangments, covenants and lines of ownership often survive merger or even public acquisition. If construction and lease arrangements show this as a "BMT structure" that may be accurate, though no BMT exists per se.
To give a fictitious example, if there were a covenant on the deed of some land conveyed to the Brooklyn, Flatbush & Coney Island (now Brighton Line) stating that "Harold W. Blodgett and his lineal descendents shall forever have the right to free passage on the road so long as rail service exists" Harold W. Blodgett VI might today have a legally enforceable right to a pass from the MTA to ride the D train.
To give a real example, when the Penn Central went belly up, some long forgotten leased lines like the Providence & Worcester sprang back to life and started running trains. Closer to home, When the BRT went bankrupt, the trolley companies, such as Brooklyn City Railroad, resumed independent existance as operating companies.
More than you wanted to know?
Yes, I sure would like a copy of the Willy B Reconstruction brochure. Please communicate with me at paul@rapidtransit.net
Are Train Operators and Conductors credentialed by equipment and line, or simply given a green light to all equipment?
For example, if you can operate an R-46, can you also operate an R-68 without spending more time in the classroom? Further, can you switch from say the "A" to the "B" without going back to class?
Thanks.
Chip
B division train operators in school car trained in all revenue equipment except for the R110b which has all the crew needed for its operation.
A division same applies including the tech train R110a.
A division train operators need training on R44/46 equipment since 44/46 differ from SMEE equipment (Self mapping electrical equipment)
I just happened on the following page and since we
had been on the topic a few days ago I thought I'd post
the link: Brooklyn Trolley Museum
i know that they were mentioned in 1989 but i never saw them.. As well as in puerto rico we are getting the ones from chicago.
Are they good?
On Thursday last week a friend and I decided to go downtown on the EL. We waited at the Bridge-Pratt Terminal for about 15 - 20 minutes for a train during the evening rush hour. Then finally 2 trains of M-4s came in, and were put into the yard. I dont know why. All I do know was they brought out a train of Almond Joys to take over. All of a sudden there was an announcement saying EXPRESS TO 11th STREET. 11th street ws the first stop. So of course we bought got on and decided to time the ride. Well hold your breath. It was an astonishing 12 minutes from Bridge to 11th street. We went through all the stations close to or on full speed except Church Street, York Dauphin but after the last car cleared the curve he floored it again. He even sped through the slow zone on the former Spring Garden Street I-95 Speedway. Of course he had to slow down for the turn into 2nd street,but then sped through the tunnel straight to 11th street.I wish I had my video camera for that one.If anyone has had similar experience please post about Septa. I dread when the MFSE goes all M-4s, because of the fact they are so unreliable such as the incident mentioned above with the M-4s. SEPTA is of course aware of there problems by stationing a faithful BUDD as a protect train at Spring Garden during the week. I figured I would let all you SUBTALKERS now of this ride.
[If anyone has had similar experience please post about Septa.]
I was back east in Philly during Christmas. A group of friends, and I think you know one named Matt, were riding on SEPTA on the Monday after Christmas. We went out to Milbourne to take pictures of the comings and goings of the evening rush hour from the crossover bridge located there. When we were returning to Bridge-Pratt we caught a train of Budd cars, as back then the rush hour was about 50/50 M3/M4, and luck was with us.
Anyway, a train of M4's became disabled at 8th Street due to door problems. Our train was the train immediately behind the stricken one. We were in the front car, of course, and we were talking to the motorman of our train and listening in on the radio. When the superviors finally got the train of M4's rolling again, they made our train an express to Margaret-Orthodox. We had planned to bail out at 2nd Street to catch some pictures, however the promise of an express ride was enough to hang in.
It was a quick ride from 5th Street to M/O; however, I find the timed signals leading into the stations cause one to perceive that the service is slower than the old days. Although expertly handled by the motorman, the train, fully packed with people, had a difficult time in regaining speed after having to come to an almost complete stop at the signal located at the beginning of each station platform. I didn't time the trip, but it was a great experience!
The Budd cars still have a lot of get-up and go. However, they don't perform like they did when they were newer. I am one who remembers when they were brand spanking shiney new. I'm thinking that SEPTA had eliminated all but essential maintenance for the cars by that time, as the cars would be, sadly, going to Budd car heaven soon.
-Jim K.
Chicago
Heading into Philly from Trenton. The NJT ride in (reverse peak!) was rathert uneventful - except for the engineer reading his newspaper the whole way down (another story for another day). We got into Trenton in one piece howevere, and got the Septa train to Philly. Bear in mind that septa's stuff looks like it hasn't been rebuilty since the 70's :) Anyway, as the train leaves, my friend quickly notes the scent of the traction motors. But the train gets moving along nicely anyway. I'm watching out the front (through the cab), and I'm noticeing - we're going about 78 and the engineer still has the controller in full power. Hey, wow, we're doing 85, and he's still got the thing in full tilt! 90.... 92...... 95.... We maxed briefly at 98, and were doing 90+ for a few min. Full power all the way, so I guess that's all those Silverliners can do. I'm not sure what the MAS for those thing are, the speed control wasn't complaining any. Nobody else was either. Not been on a Septa train that went that fast since then. BTW - the NJT run from like Princton to Trenton is quite a few miles - and darn straight, how come the Arrows only go 80 along there? I've heard there were problems from the last rebuild - but if that's been solved, can't they bump the speed up? also, do the AEM hauled NJT trains on the NEC go any faster?
Yes I do know Matt. He is good peoples. One question, and you mentioned the signals. Supposedly they automatically go to red if train hasnt passed in more then 10 minutes,making the train slow for all signals. Is there any truth to that,and why is it like that. And your righ the Budds did look a hell of a lot better new then they do now, but are still great cars in my opinion.
I have heard of that type of slotting of signals. I know that this not true on the Market-Franfort Elevated Line. If a signal is cleared by normal means or fleeting it is clear and will only go to red after the towerman puts it to stop or train passes it. SEPTA complies with FRA rules and this not FRA or nobody elses rules. Your story is incorrect.
I haven't heard of that type of slotting of signals. I know that this is not true on the Market-Franfort Elevated Line. If a signal is cleared by normal means or fleeting it is clear and will only go to red after the towerman puts it to stop or train passes it. SEPTA complies with FRA rules and this not FRA or nobody else's rules. Your story is incorrect.
[I haven't heard of that type of slotting of signals. I know that this is not true on the Market-Franfort Elevated Line. If a signal is cleared by normal means or fleeting it is clear and will only go to red after the towerman puts it to stop or train passes it. SEPTA complies with FRA rules and this not FRA or nobody else's rules. Your story is incorrect]
David - while his explanation of how the signals work my not be correct, it is TRUE that there is a RED board on the signal immediately before the station platform of most of the MFSE platforms. It was NEVER like this before, I say the early 1990's when I last rode the MFSE.
However, using some method, and you know I'm not the expert at this or the technicalities of signaling specifically, SEPTA is displaying a "RED" stop with trip arm in the upright position at signals entering the station.
SEPTA might follow FRA rules on the Regional Rail Division, which is as close to railroading as one gets today, but on the MFSE, they are doing something with signals to slow down the trains.
I witnessed it myself in December 1998.
- Jim K.
Chicago
Is it possible the reason SEPTA is displaying red signals in fromt of all the stations is because of the problem the M-4s are having with the braking of the train? Not being a transit expert this is just a thought.
I thought it had something to do with the M-4's cameras, but that doesn't sound right, does it? I know that there were always several grade-time signals on the subway portion of the El (eastbound coming into 34th was one - it's a tricky downslope and you notice that the train is coasting almost immediately out of 40th when you ride here; another is in the river tunnel east of 30th in both directions, as well as on the subway-surface tracks). PATCO has a few of these also, usually at turnouts/crossovers (one is eastbound at 8th-Market) - the indication is red unless a train is approaching, when it goes lunar.
i, was a operator for 9 yrs and them signals always were at the station entering. on the el+broad st subway where i work now
Thanks Jim Im glad Im not the only thinking he is experiencing swer rides on Frankford EL. Actually The rides I have on the Market Street end is close to the same it always has been if Im ot mistaken. Next time you are in Philly give either Matt or Myself a yell.
SEPTA on the elevated and subway division does follow FRA rules. The signaling you are talking about is a form of grade time signaling for a train entering a station. Nothing unusual about this. You just run time to clear the signal to make sure the train is at a predetermined speed before entering the station.
these are known as speed control signals
Yes you are all right about the speed of the those Budd cars. Those babys can really move. I was wondering if anybody out there knows why they slowed the trains down along the I-95 speedway?
[Yes you are all right about the speed of the those Budd cars. Those babys can really move.]
Ron - I don't know if you remember when the cars were brand new, but when the line was changed over to completely Budd car operation the running time from Bridge-Pratt to 69th Street was reduced from 45 minutes to 38 minutes. That is a 15% reduction in running time!
The get up and go, unfortunately, was the cause of a derailment at the York-Dauphin curve shortly after the cars went into service. One person died in the wreck. I'm not sure, but I think one car of a married pair was wrecked and never rebuilt.
Back in the 1960's, the headways at rush hour were a train every 1 3/4 minutes. Do a little calculation and you'll see that most of the 270 cars in the fleet were in use during the rush hour.
- Jim K.
Chicago
I was very young when the Budds took over the El but I remember just about every ride I took on them. I was certainly impressed.
The York-Dauphin derailment took out cars 837-38, I believe.
Even in the early 70's, the headway was less than 3 minutes in the peak of the peak. In the late 70's, with all the bad snowstorms we had, the size of the fleet was sorely noted when only 5-car trains could be fielded for a number of weeks (snow got caught in traction motors and began to take its toll). I remember a few cars got out of the shops with reduced or no motors just to make the line. Service was S-L-O-W! Riders were confused - after years of learning just where the doors would be when the trains came into their stops, the train size changed and the door location often did too.
The worst was the slow order period on the Frankford end. The Budds had to be like wild horses pulling on the reins to motormen who had to keep the speed down.
The best part of the ride to me was the sway of the cars. It really got rolling on the run between 15th and 30th.
I just took a new train today between these stops, with 1151-52 in the consist. The M-4's have the same sway in this section. Good things don't change!
Jim I sure do remember when the BUDD cars were new. I could not wait to take a ride on them. The first time I saw the cars was on a Saturday Evening during one of my mom and dads rituals of Saturday evening shopping along Frankford Ave. All of a sudden this silver train comes flying by. What a sight.
That type of service during rush hour on the MFSE was the same until the mid to late 1980s. Or around the time they killed the ridership when they rebuilt the EL.
More than once I've boarded a train at Bridge and Pratt and heard express to point a(though never as far away as 11th Street-more like York-Dauphin or Berks).
On Saturday I went on a railfan trip of sorts getting some shots of the Frankford El(to be submitted when I have enough money to them developed) and on the Regional Rail(R3 and R5, now I've only the R2 and the Media/Sharon Hill lines before I can say I've ridden every SEPTA rail route).
I was a bit surprised at one place. I was taking a picture of some of the new tilework at Girard when a SEPTA cop(actually in a station) came to me and said "What are you taking these pictures for?" I made up a sob story about a school assignment and he asked me if I had permission to take photos here. I had no idea SEPTA had a policy against taking pictures without permission. In the guard's defense, I was snapping pretty close to some maintenence doors so he may have been suspicious of that.
Otherwise it was an enjoyable Saturday. Though because of trackwork, trains from 15th to 5th ran on the westbound track. In the early evening, a man was struck in the head by a westbound train at 30th St.
[I was a bit surprised at one place. I was taking a picture of some of the new tilework at Girard when a SEPTA cop(actually in a station) came to me and said "What are you taking these pictures for?"]
Unfortunately in our "sue everyone to make your millions society", the age old practice of railfans taking pictures could be in jeprody. I've been challenged myself on some properties (i.e. St. Louis Light Rail, and on SEPTA). Keep in mind that in the 1990 El wreck west of 30th Street, SEPTA had twice as many claims as people who were on the train. Go figure!
Today, most transit agencies are so afraid of lawsuits that they don't want to take any chances. So they run their trains at reduced speed and don't allow pictures to be taken on the property. I'm not saying what you were doing was wrong, just pointing out the hard facts of operating a tranist system in today's society.
PLEASE, let's not start another lawyer bashing thread here!
It is always best to follow the "no trespassing" rule and if asked be respectful and request permission. I've seen some idiots trying to get the once in a lifetime photo and putting themselves in the path of a sixty-plus MPH train. This only puts the railfan community on even thinner ice!
- Jim K.
Chicago
This doesn't bother me so much as you can't find a SEPTA cop when you need one, but there will usually be one bugging you when you are merely taking pictures. The problem comes into play when most don't believe that anyone in his/her right mind would be taking photos of transit vehicles, etc and automatically become suspicious. You would think transit agencies would advise their police recruits that there are hobbyists out there and to treat them with some respect.
The only time I was hassled by a SEPTA cop, strangely enough, was at the 40th St subway-surface portal a few years ago (this on public streets!). I was told that photography made the operators nervous. I politely showed the cop my business card (I'm a government employee) and told him what I was doing. He didn't like it but there was little he could do about it.
The SEPTA permit is a joke, anyway. Try and get one - frame it if you do. They're about as hard to get as dinosaur teeth.
[The only time I was hassled by a SEPTA cop, strangely enough, was at the 40th St subway-surface portal a few years ago (this on public streets!). I was told that photography made the operators nervous.]
The management and union both have little or no respect for the hobby we practice. Management and union alike are paranoid when it comes to cameras. Little do they realize is that the railfan community can be a helpful ally and supporter.
Recently, an operator on the CTA yelled for me to "stick your camera up you _ _ _". Now what could she have been up to that she didn't want it recorded on film? How can any transit agency excel when they must employ workers with an attitude such as this?
The thing that annoys me the most about this attitude is it is us, the riders and taxpayers, that are paying their salary. Try this attitude in private business and you'd be out-of-business soon!
Jim K.
Chicago
Well I think their attitude has to do with things like being visited at home when you call in sick, etc. If the workers feel that management is out to get them (even when they are not doing anything wrong) then any documentary evidence like a person taking photos is going to trigger that feeling. They don't know you're a railfan.
-Dave
And in my case, being suspicious of a 16-year old? SEPTA isn't that clever.
Unless he thought I was truly doing something illegal, but what was the worst I could have done?
Well, it looks like that one picture I took of a Redbird #2 train leaving Burke Avenue in June 1996 may be the only one I ever take of the Redbirds. I was going to get some pictures of Redbirds in 1996 because I heard that would be the last year for them. Of course it's now 1999 and they're still here, though not for too much longer. But if the MTA is going to start complaining about picture-taking, then I'll just have to stop. Oh well, at least that one picture I took was a good one.
I've never been bothered on the subway for taking pictures. Gotten some funny looks but never approached by anyone official. I wouldn't worry about it so much. I mean, if you do get stopped, just say you're a tourist and didn't know. Done deal.
-Dave
Well I'm not sure about if Picture taken in the New York Subway Systerm is legal or not but my son does it every weekend. The only problem he had was at Jay Street taken a picture of a Southbound C Train. A Cleaner complained and was going for a cop. But I don't really see a rule agenst picture taken. The only thing is if your taken a shot in the subway and flash it at an approching train it could interfer with the Train Operators operation. So if your in the subway and want a picture take a back shot or a front shot when the train is not moving.
Does anyone remember the LOW V fantrip on the Dyre Line. Some people went on the Roadbed North of Baychester Ave. Now that was 100% Illegal. Also the T/O on the Dyre Shuttle called control like he was suppose to but nothing was done when it was found to be a crowd from the fantrip.
Here is the rule for taking picture at subway cars. I been taking the picture outdoor because of alot of light.
Your point is well taken. I have been on a number of fan trips, mainly in NYC but also a couple here in Phila, where "fans" take it upon themselves to violate safety rules and common sense to get that great photo, video, etc. It's no wonder we get treated with contempt and scorn from some operating personnel. Cases in point:
R-30 trip several years back - a number of fans went onto the catwalks at Smith-9th, Kings Highway and the Franklin Shuttle.
Fans on the roadbed at 9th Ave, same trip.
Market-Frankford trip last fall - fans on catwalks, standing on platform edge railings (!), and going onto the roadbed (I saw this at both 69th St and Spring Garden).
Other riders see this and think why should they obey the rules when the special riders don't. Operating folks try to warn but get rebuked. Authorities decide it's not worth it to risk fantrips and discourage doing so. Then what?
I'm not even going to mention those who decide to use subway platforms for urinals...
Actually it is against the regulations to take a picture on the subway but don't tell the MTA.Here's the reg;
XVII. CODES,RULES and REGULATIONS of the STATE OF NEW YORK governing the NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT AUTHORITY. (Their caps,not mine)
Chapter XXI Metropolitan Transportation Authority
Subchapter F New York City Transit Authority
Part 1051 Prohibited Uses(Statutory authority: Public Authorities Law 1204 (subd 5-a)
1051.9 (b)
" No person except members of the press who hold working press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department shall take moving pictures or photographs within the limits of the New York City transit system.
This is dated Sept 1,1974 and unless its been changed its still on the books.
If the TA ever enforces this one sub-talk will be based at Sing-Sing.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I for one routinely ignore this arcane regulation. (Oops! This constitutes a discussion of illegal activity!) Let 'em clap me in irons.
Wayne
Wayne: Sing-Sing isn't such a bad place. The railroad runs right through the prison.
Larry,redbirdR33
I been taking pictures of subway cars and buses with moving or without moving also i don't used flash outdoor, but i don't take picture in the subway system. I been enjoy it taking picture of redbirds because they will be soon replace R142.
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
Justin: Years ago the Board of Transportation had a similar regulation. A friend of mine was taking a picture of a BMT streetcar when he was challenged by a BOT official for taking a picture. He simply replied that he was taking a picture of the house accross the street and it wasn't his fault if a streetcar got in the way.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Are you saiding the we not allow to take picture of subway cars or buses? Only press member take picture? Doesn't make any sense to me but i did read the rule about taking the picture of subway cars and buses but the rule didn't said Only Press Member can take picture. Ask David Pirmann about the rule of taking the picture.
Peace out
Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
He simply replied that he was taking a picture of the house accross the street and it wasn't his fault if a streetcar got in the way.
That's a great one! Except now there are no streetcars :(
I was challenged once at Stillwell Ave - I politely replied that I was taking pictures of the trains because I'm a railfan and the officers gave me a wry smile (as if to say, "do you believe this guy") and allowed me to continue my photography.
--Mark
I'm sure this is like a lot of laws on the books -- more honored in the breech than in the observance.
Take our zoning laws. If we were to enforce them, 15,000 harmless businesses would be closed. Here in NYC, there is a political consensus in favor of having laws on the books and not enforcing them -- except against the "wrong" type of people. I think it stinks. But liberals like to pass laws to control people, and conservates enforce them against who they please.
Taking photos in the subway is as illegal as double parking during alternate side of the street cleanings. The bottom line is, in order to satisfy the cranks you can pass as many laws as you want, but if enforcing them would lose more votes than it gained no one will do it.
You want to get ride of the tough Rockefeller drug laws. Start a drag net in the suburbs and colleges, and start sending affluent suburban kids up the river for 15 years for two ounces of something. Maybe a Black person might get in trouble for taking photos in the subway, but I won't. Unless I put on a black trench coat.
A libertarian is a liberal who has been mugged by a Co-op Board.
I use flash underground at all times. However, I try to follow some guidelines when doing so: 1) never fire the flash in the motorman's face 2) avoid getting too many people in the picture (not easy)
3) concentrate on inanimate objects - i.e. walls, tile bands, tablets etc. Most of my train pictures are out-of-doors, this way I don't have to use the flash. I've also taken a few good ones outdoors from the front of the moving train. I use 400 speed Kodak Gold in my Canon WP-1 Sure Shot.
Wayne
Hey Wayne i do the same thing, When is beauiful day, I take picture of Subway and buses.
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
Here, here. I've taken a few pictures through the railfan window on a couple of occasions. One was on a Manhattan-bound B of slant R-40s looking straight ahead down the structure along New Utrecht. You can even see the hardware which is so closely identified with the slants. The other two were taken on a Manhattan-bound Q of R-32s on the embankment portion. The Empire State Building can be seen looming in the distance.
I see this has already gotten a bunch of replies but your information is out of date. I wrote to the MTA Office of the Chairman a couple of years ago and received copies of the relevant law, an excerpt of which is in the Subway FAQ: Photography on the Subway.
Sorry, but this information is already out of date. So, here's the CORRECT AND UP TO DATE information.
Any individual who wishes to take pictures in the subway must have a photo permit (yes, I know this provision was removed during the Kiepper years, but it's back). The person to contact is Alberteen Anderson of NYC Transit Government Relations on the 3rd Floor at 130 Livingston Street, Brooklyn NY 11201. The permit is free and, unless someone has changed his/her mind in the past month or two, is good in any public area of the system at any time of day.
David: Thats good to know. They usually don't get around to changing those archaic laws . I stand corrected.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In the NY Daily News Monday May 3, page 8, is about how tens of thousands of Brooklyn commuters will start their way across the Williamsburg Bridge with the closing of the subway lines for the J,M, and Z riders.
Also in the article is a list of suggested ways to alternate routes to Manhattan from selected stations.
After the Good readers of SubTalk read the article, your most Excellent thoughts are welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Any reports on how the first rush hour without the Willie-B went this morning? From my vantage point high atop Beacon Hill here in Boston, it's tough to get a good view...
Todd, From that view on Beacon Hill EYE have another Mass Transit question ... has the surface carrier started service in the Boston Common ? When I walked to work, at the Custom House from Back Bay, thru the park, EYE saw them many times loaded with happy tourest.
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T,
Do you mean the "rubber tired trolleys"? Oh yeah, they go by my window about 10 times an hour. There are four competitors doing roughly the same thing. I always hear the same part of the schpiel! We also have Duck Tours, though I understand they may have been suspended following the accident in Arkansas the other day.
No not rubber tires ... paddles ... guess that's a got-ya ;-)
Thurston, the problem is you were specifying the wrong park. The Public Garden is adjacent to the Common but considered a seperate entity.
The question, TODD, is are the Swan Boats running?
The Swan Boats have not been running this week; the wx is rotten. Nor have I heard any Ducks go by my window... but I think that is more due to on-going inspections following the recent tragedy in Arkansas.
Opps ... leave it to me to botch up a joke :-(
Haven't been there since the 70's when I rode the PCCs from Riverside to Park Street & took a bus to Old Iron Sides [via two day pass](lived there in early 60's).
I did remember that there was two parks next to each other.
As Gilder Radner would say ... never mind :-(
Mr t__:^)
Another upcoming shutdown to report:
A conductor friend of mine who works for the MBTA commuter rail out of South Station says that as of the 15 May pick, the Southwest Corridor will be shut down from South Station to Readville so that electrification can be completed. This will affect all AMTRAK trains out of South Station, and all MBTA commuter rail trains destined for Attleboro/Providence, Franklin and Stoughton for three months -- except for rush hours M-F when there will be normal service. During diversion hours, all trains will use the Dorchester Branch. Needham trains, which use separate tracks, are expected to continue on a modified schedule to serve SW corridor stations. See the MBTA Web Site and click on "Commuter Rail" to see a map of the system.
I find this interesting since it is now less than two weeks away, and there has been NO public announcement of this yet, nor publication of new schedules for either AMTRAK or the commuter trains.
Todd, I have no idea what was announced locally there but I rerad about this in the Julian Wolinsky on line monthly rail transit on line Fri eve, which means he must have heard sometime earlier. BTW his e-newsletter is an okay read--sort of like the transit column in PTJ used to be but no paper no snails.
David,
Yes, I just got this month's edition Julian's newsletter. The two stories match, which I guess means there's something to it! However none of the media have announced this shutdown yet; nor is there anything on the MBTA Web site. It would be nice for the public to get two weeks' notice for a service change as substantial as this is going to be.
Amtrak has announced that for the next timetable, all shore trains will by-pass Back Bay so they can do work on the line to Rt 128. I assume this means they will retrun to the Dorchester branch previously used during the Orange line reconstuction 79-84. Shuttle service will be provided from South Station to Back Bay.
While most trains will have their running times extended to allow for
extensive single tracking, train #172 will operate non-stop via the Inland route from New Haven to Back Bay. Cars for #472 will operate at the rear of the train and will follow #172 out of New Haven making regular stops to Springfield. Amtrak will provide Ambus service for stops east of New haven.
This re-route is not supposed to last the entire timetable.
The "Dorchester Branch" is really the old New York and New England RR or the Midland Division of the New Haven. It is actually a shorter run than the Boston & Providence main line, and is often used to get reverse moves into or out of Boston during rush hours. The problem is that there is a local shuttle train every 30 or 60 minutes except Sundays to and from Readville. An Amtrak train caught behind the local would be a slow ride.
I suspect that they'll try to get the AMTRAK trains in front of the local MBTA trains.
I take the 4:45 pm weekend MBTA train from Mansfield to South Station (it orginates in South Attleboro as #1812/2812) often. If the AMTRAK NYP-BOS train #164 is running late, the MBTA train is held to run behind it. By the way, that portion of the Main Line is straight as an arrow. You can see #164's headlights a good five minutes before it blows by the station... so it must be 5+ miles of visibility. When I see it coming, I retreat back from the platform. It's quite a surprise for the uninformed who are waiting for a commuter train to lumber to a stop when #164 goes by at 60+ mph... I can't wait to see what happens when ACELA trains roar through!
Todd, YES of course MBTA owes riders adequate notice and should have been advertising this for some time--but where were the media wizards? The Globe, westinghouse newsradio, etc., you would think someone would have noticed.
My error. Here's the MBTA Web site link.
The Astoria Line was signaling as an IRT line and is used by the BMT.
We have a famous old gorilla named Willy B. at the Atlanta Zoo. I think the bridge is like a big gorilla. How is the rush hour today without the Willy B?
SEPTA's Broad Street subway was the prototype for the IND. Broad Street has 4 tracks with express stations. It is signaled however like the IRT with red aspects at home signals for clear signals combined with a green or red aspect. Double rail AC track circuits are used with impedance bonds which the IND never had. All signaling was Union Switch & Signal with air stops and A-5 air switch machines as opposed to A-10 machines used on the IND.
I don't know how much the IND was actually modelled on the Broad St Subway, but I do know that the original Broad St cars were in many ways duplicates of BMT Standards. They may not have looked alike, but that may be where the similarities started. The only big difference, outside of looks, was conductor accommodation - here in Phila, conductors have always been in cabs.
today the broad st subway is #1 man or woman operation
Thouhgt it would be nice for everyone to know who was there for Friday's lovely fan trip. Based on my recollection and what I can tell from the Messages, I believe the following were present (in no particular order):
Todd Glickman
David Pirmann
Sid (and Irene) from NJ
Howard Fein
Larry Littlefield
Bob Anderson
Doug aka BMTman
Dan Schwartz
Peter Rosa
Eric B
(Lou from Brooklyn?)
If I missed you (and I suspect I missed a few), I apologize; if you want, please respond to correct the error. I agree - we should bring nametags for the next fan trip.
Bill, Did you notice any SubTalkers with you who couldn't make the 6PM crossing ?
Mr t__:^)
I wuz there!! Remeber the 6'8" person in a yellow jacket?
I have pleanty of stickers at work and can make up some name tags for the next outing. Not a problem.
No, I did not notice any SubTalkers on my last crossing.
It would have been the cherry on the desert if you had been the engineer at 6 PM. I & probally a few others were there (at 7 PM) in spirit at the front window (got stuck at work when I was hopping to sneak out early)
Mr t__:^)
Hello, again; Does anyone know at what time the first M arrived (and left) Marcy Avenue on 5/3/99?
Backtracking through old ERA Bulletins I find that Composite trailer #2135 was destroyed by fire on June 1,1906 and rebuilt by the IRT into Pump Car 03 in 1907. Car 03 was renumbered 20126 in 1962. Does anyone have more current info on this car? Thanks
Larry,RedbirdR33
On car #100, R-1 (at the Museum), the builder's plate (over the storm door) says:
American Car and Foundry/ACF/Berwick Plant
The builder's plate on later R-1/9 cars say:
ACF/American Car and Foundry/ACF
Berwick Plant (below the American... wording in the center)
Anyone know when the change occured? What cars came with the new plate?
I don't know about the R-1/9 series, but when the R-27/30 series (BMT/IND) were delivered starting around Oct or Nov, 1960, they came with three different builder's plates.
The first few cars had plates which simply said "St. Louis Car Company - Builder", like those on the R-21 and R-22 IRT cars. Later ones said "St. Louis Car Company, a division of General Steel Castings Corp.", and still later ones said "St. Lous Car Company, a division of General Steel Industries, Inc."
I disagree. The all black SLC plate did come with the GSI shield on the R27/30/30a contrat. The red GSI shield came on the R33/36/38/40/40M contract. The R42/44 had the red block lettering "GSI".
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Dear Sir/Madam:
When will the 63rd Street Tunnel be back to normal? Will it be
on May 22nd, 1999 or in June or September? Will the B and Q trains
continue to be as follows:
(B) 145th Street,Manhattan to Coney Island, Brooklyn
Weekdays 9am-5pm.
Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx to Coney Island, Brooklyn
Rush Hours.
(B) 21st Street-Queensbridge, Queens to Coney Island, Brooklyn
Evenings and weekends, with some trains stopping at Dekalb
Avenue and running local on 4th Avenue during 6AM-7AM and
9PM-12Am daily
(B) 36th Street-4th Avenue, Brooklyn to Coney Island, Brooklyn
12AM-6AM daily
(Q) 21st Street-Queensbridge, Queens to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
Weekdays 6am-9pm.
Why do some B trains stop a DeKalb Avenue and run local on 4th Avenue
during the hours of 6AM-7AM and 9PM-12AM daily?
James Li
I've noticed that the vending machines at 59th Street-Columbus Circle offer single trip Metrocards. These are made of the same cardboard used for bus transfer cards given for cash fares. Also, they don't provide the free bus transfers of the regular Metrocards.
Are tokens finally nearing the end?
My guess is that the token will be a memory within 1 to 1 1/2 years.
[Are tokens finally nearing the end?]
The end for tokens is as near as 1 June 1999 in Chicago on CTA. All fareboxes and rapid transit turnstiles have small red post notes on them informing riders to "Use your tokens before they retire".
I'll be sorry to see them go.
BTW, does anyone out there know when the first token was used and what system introduced it?
- Jim K.
Chicago
I heard that all stations in NYC will have MetroCard machines by the end of 2000. I predict that will be the end of the token :-(
I also think that the single trip MetroCards should have a free transfer on them, like a regular MetroCard would have.
Y?
The TA would like to see the Token go bye bye, however if the experience of my employee who tryed a weekly unlimited is at all typical (he had trouble almost every day) the token will be around for a while.
Mr t__:^)
This entire post is personal opinion and is not official MTA or NYCT info
I too would love to see the token disappear--they fall on the floor of the booth and are very hard to find. I have spent three hours looking for a token and yes I have found several in various nooks and cranies in the booths.
Now I must come back to reality- I think that the token will not disppear any time soon. Even with the vending machines NYCT plans to buy there wont be machines in every station. Let's look at the Banking industry-- We have had ATM machines since the 1970s and they have not replaced the human teller. Just go to any bank and there are still long lines. Not everyone will buy from machines and not everyone uses MetroCards. At this time I work a part-time booth at 175 on the A. Many people are still buying 10-20 tokens daily!
Let us say that they will do away with tokens on a given day. The people will raise such a fuss that the tokens will survive--Look what happened to New Coke! (it even cost the CEO his job!)
I have spoken to many people in revenue (While they are at a booth I have worked) and they agree that the token wont go away any time soon. Still to be solved is what to do if the turnstiles are out of order--with a token there is the NRFB (Non Revenue Fare Box)--the black thing chained near the service entry gate. What will happen if there is no token--Cash? Portable MetroCard readers? Both unlikely. Free entry--again unlikely. Call the Police who will have a reader--dream on(Ha-ha).
Here again personal opinion- What I do forsee is a penalty for buying tokens--Maybe it will be $1.50 for a card trip and $2 for a token and even then many will pay the penalty. NJT and the LIRR charge a penalty for buying a ticket aboard the train ($3 for NJT) and still people willingly pay the penalty.
To conclude- short of a miracle, the token will be here for a long time
**disclaimer-- this entire post is personal opinion and not official MTA or NYCT information.**
NRFB (Non Revenue Fare Box)... sounds like an oxymoron if I ever heard one... Is it a fare box that's used for collecting fares taht aren't considered revenue (huh!?) or just a fare box that's not in revenue service? (That would make a little more sense). What exactly is it used for anyway?
Mike
It's also called a "drop box". You DROP stuff into it, but nothing is recorded, electronically. Buses, recently, used to have them. If money goes in, employees will find a way to break in, so it's in your best interest NOT to have/use them.
Mr t__:^)
The box is used if: Crowd condition, General Order, all Turnstiles out of order.
In theory a customer must drop[ a token in the box. We do not empty them- the money train people empty these boxes.
We have to call Jay street when we start to use these boxes and again when we stop using these boxes.
Do people have troblem with Metrocard?? I see people buying more token than Buying Metrocard. But i used Halffare Metrocard since Oct,98 and i don't have troblem with my Metrocard. So look like token will stay there for a long time and i think people don't trust Metrocards.
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
P.S Any one have revieve the test score of "Station Agent"?
It may be that the "Unlimited" MC gives customers more trouble then the "value" MC, like you have. However, I think the problem has more to do with ware & tear on the R/W head in the Turnstile. The Station Agents have a cleaning pad, the same as is used to clean the farebox version, but it doesn't always get it all, and some turnstile R/W heads are BEYOND cleaning. I also think that the TA & Cubic know about the problem, so maybe it will get better s-o-o-n.
I it doesn't they'll be shooting themselves in the foot relative to their interest in eliminating the token.
Mr t__:^)
I had an occasional problem with my 7-day MC last October. Sometimes a turnstile would let me through after repeated swipes, sometimes it wouldn't. I did notice a buildup of dirt on my card's magnetic strip after a few days, and after cleaning it off, it helped a little. The Transit Museum had MC holders for sale, so I took them up on it. Good idea, IMHO.
One question: how fast should you swipe the card? I would imagine the turnstile may not read it properly if you swipe too fast.
I've seen people timidly swiping their card thru pretty slowly and the turnstile constantly indicating Please Swipe Again. Whereas I generally swipe the card at walking speed and go right thru. I only have to reswipe once in a while and it's usually because I tried to do without stopping and didn't get it firmly into the reader. So I think medium to fast is probably better than little-old-lady speed....
-Dave
Dave is about right ... it's just something you have to get used to.
There's a LOT of information going back & forth, so it's realy amazing that it works at that speed. The more features they add the more amazing it gets.
P.S. Our depot uses a 486 based PC to process all the bus probes (five lanes) & the modem that talks to the mainframe isn't state of the art, but it works.
Mr t__:^)
A maintainer was working on the computer inside the booth and I asked about the machine.
The main computer in each station is a 486. The computer inside the booth is a Z80-and it talks to, gets info from the computer downtown as well as the main computer in each station.(the main computer is near the tursntiles. Go to the far left turnstile and note the space to the left.
If it's battleship grey, it's the same box, but I had better not say more ... i.e. security issues.
Maybe the MTA should add another job on the list called "Turnstile Cleaner". So they can clean all the Turnstiles.
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a.Mean DJ)
I believe all the "Station Agents" have the cleaning pads & are expected to come out of the booth & clean the Read/Write Heads, when there aren't lots of folks in line.
I don't know how frequently the TA replaces that unit to do a "PM" on it, but maybe more frequent "service" would help.
At this depot I've noticed that some of the parts are wareing out and need to be adjusted/replaced.
Mr t__:^)
The rule is to clean the reads when we start our shift.
About the same speed you swipe your credit (or debit )card thru the reader at the local supermarket..I've noticed those are pretty fast,too; if you swipe those too slow..it asks you to swipe again..I believe whomever programs those figures most folks are electronic savvy and are in some sort of a hurry....
Just wanted to follow up on a Saturday post. There is at least one train set of R40M's on the N. I saw it twice today (Monday) the north motor was 4454, I was unable to catch any other numbers or th end sign. My office does not have a window. Train Spotting from the Boss' office is done at my own risk >G<.
yeah i just saw a few today, numbered 4488 and 4470. also i saw a few other weird things like a N train which was a daimond shape but it was brown background like the J M and Z trains, and it was a R40M (4470). Also I saw a few Q trains with the old yellow (like the N and R trains). I know that its old, like from when the slants were on the B and the R68's were on the Q. Also I saw 2 W trains, one on a N slant and on a Q slant.
laterz
BlackDevl
A Brown Diamond N??? That's a new variation - I've also seen white-letter N's on their usual gold background - case in point is Slant 40 #4320. You never know what you'll see signed up these days!
Wayne
Does anyone know where this can be purchased? Specifically:
At which Center City Stations?
At Bridge & Pratt (Market/Frankford El)?
At any Regional Rail Stations outside of Center City (especially Torresdale and Trenton?).
Thank you.
[Does anyone know where this can be purchased? Specifically:
At Bridge & Pratt (Market/Frankford El)?]
I know that the day-pass is sold at the Bridge-Pratt El station, just around the corner from the Dunkin Donuts shop. The booth is just opposite from the regular fare collection cashier booth.
They were selling day-passes the Monday after Christmas there. I already had one though. It's handy to get on at Bridge-Pratt because of the large parking lot located right next to the El yard.
BTW, the way they do the day-pass on SEPTA is they have a day-pass validation sticker that the cashier (they call them cashier's in Philly), applies to a regular transfer with already imprinted with the date.
I'm not sure about hours the booth is open, or any other locations, but I'd say the 69th Street probably also sell them.
Jim K.
Chicago
You can buy them wherever tokens and Transpasses are sold. This includes Bridge-Pratt (er, Frankford Terminal, sorry!), 69th Street, Olney, Fern Rock, 30th St (both the Regional Rail side as well as the El stop), Walnut-Locust, Suburban Station, Market East, the 15th St sales office, the Transit Museum, and I believe, 5th St. The hours vary at some locations but at the bigger terminals (i.e. Frankford, 69th, Olney, Fern Rock) these are generally open all day, as are the commuter stops downtown.
By the way, you get one ride on the Airport Line with a Daypass. Good luck returning (hint - take the 37 bus to the Broad St subway at Snyder or to the 36 subway-surface line at Island Ave).
Call me naive, but is this Daypass good on SEPTA Regional Rail and PATCO also, or just on the Market-Frankford El and Broad Street lines? If it's the former, that's TREMENDOUS savings!
Since I originated this post I'll try to answer it...my understanding is that
the daypass is NG on PATCO, and only good on Regional Rail between 30th St, Suburban Sta, and Market East, and only a single trip on the Airport Line. It is good on all city transit division subways, els, trolleys, buses, trackless trolleys.
Since I'm a New Yawker who is only going to visit SEPTA one of these days, if there are any Philly area folks out there please correct me if I wrote something incorrect. Thanks
And BTW - my understanding is the pass can be purchased at Frankford Terminal (Bridge and Pratt), correct?
Yes to all your questions/comments. By the way, even without Regional Rail and PATCO, the DayPass is still a bargain, considering the $1.60 base fare.
PATCO is a relative bargain at any measure. Fares have been stable for the past 16 years, although this year there has been talk of a fare increase.
I saw the strangest thing today on the Broadway line. I was waiting at 49th St. for a downtown train at about 5:10, and a train of of R46s pulls in with A BROWN DIAMOND "R" on the front!!! The LED side destination signs read the normal "Broadway Local to 95th St. Brooklyn"
Anyone else seen this train?
Mike
Oh brother! I was just reading about the Brown Diamond "N" one of our fellow contributors saw today and thought to myself perhaps there might also be a Brown Diamond "R" out there as well - sure enough.
The Brown Diamond "R" was a late 80s remnant of the old Banker's Special, from 95th Street to Chambers Street, only in the Rush Hours.
RedbirdR33 more than likely has the exact dates when this service operated.
Wayne
Now I have a question, why would they use the brown sign instead of the yellow one? Any particular reason or just a strange T/o?
Mike
Not a clue on that one - maybe the same fellow who signed his "B" train up as "V" a couple of months ago was running this odd "R".
Wayne
The R 32-38 version of the side route sign would read R Nassau St 4 Av.
Riders used to also know it as the Chambers St. Express.
Back in 10/79 when the Diamond Jubilee Edition of the Subway Map was issued all route were color-coded according to the main line of operation.
Red: 1,2,3
Dark Green 4,5,6
Purple: 7
Light Blue: JFK Exp
Dark Blue: A,AA,CC,E
Orange: B,D,F
Light Green: GG
Brown: J,M
Gray: LL
Yellow: N,QB,RR
Black: S 42 St, S Franklin
The one exception to this was the RR Nassau St Lcl which was shown as a yellow diamond. This lasted until the May 24,1987 map when the by then R Nassau St Lcl became a brown diamond.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wayne: Here's what I have on post-Chrystie St Nassau St-4 Av service.
RJ Jamaica-Nassau St-4 Av Lcl 11/27/67-6/28/68
Identification "RJ" in a red circle
RR Nassau St Local 7/1/68-5/5/86
Identification "RR" in a green circle 7/1/68-10/26/79
"RR" in a yellow diamond 10/29/79-5/5/86
R Nassau St Local 5/6/86-12/9/88
Identification "R" in a yellow diamond 5/6/86-5/22/87
"R" in a brown diamond 5/25/87-12/9/88
The R Nassau St Lcl was then replaced by the M Myrtle Av-Nassau St-West End Service.
Only the May 24,1987 edition of the subway map ever carried the brown diamond.
What I find interesting about this thread is the brown N someone saw.The N hasn't gone to Nassau St since 1917 and then it was as BRT #4.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I have been reading several recent posts about a diamond, brown N. No way! Can't be! Whoever asked the original question, car number please?
i think i said it in my previous post. it was a R40M. I saw it on 42ndSt/Times Square about 4:00 maybe. I believe it was 4470. I dont know if that was the exact car number, as the brown diamond N was on the back, but i am pretty sure. and i saw a Q R40 Slant with the round-yellow q signs, they werent diamonds.
laterz
blackdevl
Yellow "Q" signs DO exist - I've seen them many times. By the way, yellow "B" and "D" signs also exist.
Wayne
[Yellow B D and Q signs] There are Gold and Orange B D Q and N (I don't know about F] at Coney Island all over the stations. I've seen Q trains with orange Qs on the front and Yellow Qs on the side and between cars...
I have seen an orange "N" with white letter. I think it's in car #4320. I think the "F" has remained orange. Yes I have seen the yellow "B" and "D" signs up at Coney Island station.
Wayne
Orange "N" with white letter is not really orange. The original delivery of signs on R46s had a white N in a yellow bullet. When lit up, it looked orange. Any signs now are black Ns on yellow bullets. Fs are only orange.
yeah I just saw a 2 cars today (5117-5118) with yellow B signs. And i saw yet another W diamond train (4540). It looks like a W but it could be a yellow diamond M, but it doesnt like a M upside down (unless the M is like the one on the old NYCTA logo). well thats it for today.
laterz
blackdevl
There has been discussion of a rush hour W service which would mimic the old EE line of a few years back. Supposedly, it would terminate at Whitehall St., making the W a very appropriate marking.
Saw it. S/b r at 57-7, 9pm, R46 6100. Brown diamond R on the south motor.
Brown Diamond ?????? That Strange!!!!!!!
Strange,yes.In 1987 coming home on the J train,I saw a brown Diamond R on a BMT version of the redbirds coming into Myrtle Ave.More than likely it was a M Train.
at one time there was a rush hour "R" train running from 95th st Bay Ridge to Chambers Street/Nassau St which would make that color an option for R service operating instead of going up bway but via the Nassau st cut into Broad st (JMZ) and terminate at Chambers St (JMZ)
The gold and the orange are key distinnctions. They were introduced in the late 80's when there were sepereate d and B lines due to Manhattan Bridge trouble. The Orange D represented trains that ran between 205th st and Bway-Lafayette or Grand St on Sixth Ave. The Gold ran from Broklyn term. over the bway line terminating at 57th St. The transfer point was 34th St.
For an excellet example of city politics, one should examine the distribution of R68s when they frst arrived to the Gold D's and the crappy, pracitclly non-functioning R40.s to the Orange D. Hmmmm. How did that happen?
Oh, I can remember seeing slant R-40s on one of the split B and D routes on the Broadway line. At first I did a double take: what is going on here? After studying the map, it all made sense. I even rode one of those trains; those slants were anything but slow on the express runs.
This was the R40 before the General Overhaul, correct? Deferred maintenance did a number on them and they were in sad shape for a while there. Much better now, thank you.
Wayne
Put it this way: deferred maintenance did a number on just about the entire fleet. I still think the Triplexes, had they been retained, would have kept right on going.
I've never seen a brown diamond N, but I've seen a brown circle N on some Slant R-40s. What service could that have been?
Its just that the paper on the sign are old and just like anything else kinda rotted out!
Trevor
Those signs are not paper - they are mylar, which is a kind of thin flexible plastic, not much given to decay due to age. Anyway, the signs on the R40 date back only as far as 1989.
Wayne
I have seen a brown circle N sign too. And yes, they are on Slant R40s, but it does look kinda dirty...
And, of course, in 1917, the BMT number code didn't exist. It wasn't adopted until the Triplexes began to arrive in the late 20s.
Steve: Thats a good point. Your absolutely correct.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R46 uses the same end sign box as the R40 & R42. For example, they all have a Broadway B & Q (yellow background) and 6th Ave. B & Q (orange background). There is also a brown diamond R (in case that service is ever bought back), and the standard Broadway R with the yellow background. Whenever you see a letter with an improper background (or diamond), the motorman preparing the train for service erred by putting up the sign with the wrong background. BTW: when R68 cars were assigned to the Q, they only had a diamond yellow Q in the box. They did not have a round one on an orange background. The R68A cars had that error rectified when new signboxes were manufactured for them.
I would have figured that by now, all the sign boxes that could be standardized, were. R40/40M/42/44/46/68/68A all should have the same front sign box, and the same signs, rather than each class of car having a different type of curtain. The side signs on the 40/40M/42 and the 68/68A should also be identical; but I believe the destination signs on the 60' cars are smaller....but the letters should be the same.
-Hank
Was waiting at Lex Ave this evening for a downtown F and a Queens bound E pulled in (R32s). Everyone's favorite orphan, R32 #3348, was in the consist and it sported different number plates. The typeface and style resembled that on the Braille signs one sees on the pillars. Anyone else seen that one?
What is on most of that fleet is bad enough, but this is going too far. Makes me long for the buff on blue like #3649 in my collection.
And at the OTHER end are "stick-on" numerals in the traditional NYCT font, which dates back to the R-1s. Inside it gets even better. At one end, there are the right white numerals on black with a white border at the top; at the other are little square numerals in even smaller square stickers.
An Odd Fellow (or Lady, depending on your point of view) is #3348.
Wayne
Around 11:30 am Monday I was at Dekalb ave leaving school. I was waiting there for a while for the D or Q trains to show up and nothing came. Even the B train did not Bypass the station so i knew something was up. An N train appeared on its tracks and the conductor announced that the N would runh the local on the Brighton line to Coney island. So I got on. Of course there were many riders that when they saw the N show up and not the D or Q they just stood there as if somehow between Atlantic ave and West 8th st. we would somehow turnoff of the D line and reappear on the N line. My question to any one what happend that delayed the B,Dand Q on Monday?
I've seen that happen many times. When the D is rerouted over the F from W 4th, usually due to a problem on the bridge, the F riders will stand packed on the platforms as the platform and train announcements scream that the train is running as an F. The train then runs empty to Brooklyn. And it is not a language problem. I've seen people ask the conductor where the train is going and STILL not get on. Like you said, they think the train will magically turn off and take the streets or something.
There must have been a disruption of some sort along 6th Ave., since the B, D, and Q all operate there, and all three use the bridge. Apparently, Montague St. tunnel traffic wasn't affected.
The Manhattan Bridge is still standing, right?
Dear Sir/Madam:
When the Williamsburg Bridge reopens in October 1999 to the
BMT J, M and Z trains, will the J, M and Z trains continue to
operate as they were before the construction? Why did they cut the
BMT M trains to Chambers Street during weekdays 9am-3pm? Will they
ever reinstitute a service along the Chrystie Street Cut, like the
old K and KK service? When the BMT J, M and Z trains head for Queens,
why are they considered southbound, instead of northbound?
James Li
Well, here goes:
I don't see why J, M, and Z service would not be restored to what it was before the bridge closed.
The M runs to Bay Parkway only during rush hours. Chances are ridership or econimics prompted this service implementation.
It is very unlikely we'll ever see another service such as the old KK. IMHO, that connection should have been tied into the Nassau Loop in the other direction.
I can't answer the last question.
Is the elevated section with the ornate railings immediately after Marcy Ave (built like that, I think, in anticipation of putting a station there?) going to be simply rebuilt or is a "new" EL replacement going in to straighten out that "S" curve?
--Mark
I believe the el section will be removed and the "S" curve will be straightened out - at least that's what we were told on a tour of the bridge a couple of years back. Seems to me that there is also more history to the ornate railings than just a station location, but I don't remember the details - anyone out there know?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Didn't the original route go down to a ferry landing?
It did, indeed.
And until 1989 or so, J riders had a free transfer to the B24 that took them there.
-Hank
Speaking of ferries I noticed today while crossing the Willy B.(on a bus)that the piling for the old Williamsburg Ferry are still visible at the end of Broadway. The ferry company went out of business in 1908. Its too bad there not running now.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Do you think the pilings are for the original ferry? Or maybe for the emergency ferry the Coty ran during the WB shutdown under Koch.
I thought the Broadway Ferry ran later than 1908.
Part of the structure is being rebuilt, but the alignment, and the curve, will remain.
AAAARRRGGHHH!!!
Why don't transit agencies act like "real railroads" and improve their ROWs where they need improvement???? Eliminating S curves has to pay off!
In Chicago, on the El just south of the loop, there is an S curve that the El uses to jog 1/2 block west. It must take a minute to go about 300 feet, its uncomfortable and noisy, and horrible for the neighborhood, and it has to wear the wheels and tracks like nuts. How often to they have to climb up there to work on those guard rails, etc.? The Green and Orange lines go over this bit of El, has to be well over a hundred trains a day...
Here's what drove me NUTS about this S curve...If it were straightened, it would pass over land currently occupied by...parking lots. PARKING LOTS!!! (No wonder really, with the screeching trains, that land has not been developed!) If they built the El over those parking lots, people could still park underneath it!!!
I think that the ROW people should really focus on eliminating the really S L O W parts of ROWS. As much as we all like to go real fast, what matters to most folks is how long the trip takes, not the maximum speed. You can typically save a lot more time by speeding up the slow parts of the trip, as opposed to the fast parts. (Some say Amtrak has yet to figure this out, too.)
Do any Chicago Subtalkers know if they have managed to speed up much of that slow running that was south of the Loop in say, '93? It was not just my unfavorite S curve...
OK, that's a change from what they told us on the Transit Museum tour a couple of years ago. Thanks for the update.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Still hope they ease the curve a bit, so 75 footers could have access.
Then, if they could clesr the curve near Myrtle, they could do the M like the 5: assign a couple trains of the newer cars there and run them to Booklyn rush hours, and on an OPTO shuttle nights (Weekends also, but I'd rather see midtown service then, after the bridge reopens).
The 75 footers could also run on the L if the Graham curve is not a problem (riding through it every day now, it really does not look that tight. I just wish they would remove that timer, though!)
I wish they would reconstruct Broadway Junction to give the J/Z from Jamaica access to the Canarsie Line. Now that I have an opportunity to ride it, I can appreciate its quality, and the tunnel is underutilized (although the lack of a third express track was a mistake).
You can go from Jamaica to Canarsie. Wash trains and layups do it all the time. And 67' feet isin't lomg enough? The new cars are supposed to be that long aren't they?
In order to go form Jamaica to Canarsie, you have to change direction at Chauncey St. middle track. I think Larry was talking about NOT having to change ends. The R143's will be 60 foot cars (not 67). They will be linked ABBA.
The only 75 footers still single are the R68's, and they'll be all linked (except for 9 cars for the Franklin Shuttle) shortly. So 4 cars will be too few in the east and 8 won't fit into the stations. A 600 foot train wouldn't clear the switches at Metropolitan Ave. plus, it wouldn't fit in the station. Infastructure improvements just to run 75 footers in the eastern division would run into the billions of dollars!
Keep more cars unlinked.
Also, there are the 6 car 46's used for the G, but I didn't suggest those, because the electronic signs don't have destinations for the M beyond Essex. (The original 68 signs, do)
I was also thinking that they might at least have a clearance test when the line reopens. Since this stretch of track is being rebuilt literally from the ground up, it is like a new line and will need clearance tests, so perhaps you will see 75 footers at least for that, and the 110B as well.
I don't think a 75' car can make the reverse curve from Myrtle/B'way to Central Ave. Buildings too close, and I think the tracks are too close together there as well. The curve is also very tight. Remember, it's the radius of the turn, not how far you turn.
-Hank
.
I find James' politeness quite refreshing! It's a lot better than some of the things I've seen posted on the Internet.
Compared to some of the posts here it's nice to see formal. He can post as formally as he wants. The problem I think is that it's never clear to me if he thinks he's going to get the "official" answer-- the formality of his request indicates to me that he expects official and formal in the reply...
At least no one here changes the headers and puts 'To:so and so' in the subject line like they're doing over on Bus Talk.....
-Mr Nitpick
-Hank
I believe that some years ago, several New York subway cars were fitted with a flywheel device that stored energy when the car was braking. The energy stored in the flywheel could be converted back into electricity, via a generator, and used by the car for acceleration, therefore saving power. Can anyone tell me any more about this, or suggest where I might find further information?
Thanks
Mike Smith
mep98mjs@sheffield.ac.uk
I believe the R-11s were originally equipped with flywheels for this purpose. Whether or not they were kept during the R-34 rebuilding is another issue.
My memory of this is that there was a test mod done on a pair of R-32 cars. Steve may have the answer in his archives.
The cars involved were 3700 and 3701. They were towed at the rear end of freight trains all the way across the country, surrounded by a pair of Norfolk & Western coupler conversion gondolas. As they were being towed over Cajon Pass between Barstow and San Bernardino, California, the drawbar between the cars somehow broke, and the cars were set out until repairs could be made at the AT&SF Railway shops in San Bernardino.
Imagine MY surprise, living out here in California, when driving down the freeway and noting over in the yard what looked to be a pair of "strange baggage cars" until I noticed the TA emblem on the sides!!
Photos of the csrs in San Bernardino are posted on the NY Subway Resources site.
The flywheel system was installed by Garrett Airesearch in Torrance, California. Not sure of the specifics of the system, nor how long it lasted, but in August, 1979, I was in NYC and rode on 3700 and it seemed to be back to a "normal" R32 by then.
Oh, the flywheel cars. They were two R32 cars, I believe 3200 and 3201 equipped with flywheels from The Garrett Corporation AiResearch Manufacturing Company of California. They were called the Energy Storage Unit (ESU) and operated with a maximum speed of 14,000 rpm. The 6 month testing was completed on August 20, 1976. There was a energy savings between 24 and 38 percent over ten different B Division Lines. The ESU was 100 inches long, 30 inches in diameter and weighted 5,000 lbs.
Garrett provided the propulsion system on MARTA cars with chopper controls and are still in service.
I own the advertising cards from the actual flywheel cars.
Is this more promising at this point than regenerative braking?
Seems like with today's electronics one could get effective regenerative braking...
Regenerative braking is not that effective if the line is not receptive for the power. A train must be accelerating on an adjacent track to take advantage of regen. The flywheel is effective all the time.
But there are many trains running in a system like NY for a large part of the day. Yes, the electrical supply system would have to be redesigned, and I realize that is no joke... But flywheels in every car on the system would be expensive, too!
There are disadvantages to the system, too. 1 - they are HEAVY, so there is an energy cost. 2 - They are potentially scary in an accident, as they would be dangerous if they got loose!! 3 - Do they effect the dynamics of the car? Thats a hell of a lot of angular momentum, hard to turn that wheel (for the same reason you can stay up on a bicycle). I presume they are therefore mounted on a vertical axis, but would they still have an affect on train dynamics? Not a trivial question!
Not that is not an idea which should be pursued. But I think Regenerative braking should be revisited too! The TA could put the power back into the grid, for instance. I believe that is possible these days!
24 to 38 percent power savings sounds pretty substantial. If the experiment was a success, why were flywheels never installed on a large-scale basis?
The two R-32 cars that were equipped with Flywheels were 3700-3701 (not 3200 and 3201.....that would be impossible for an R-32). If I remember correctly, they first debuted on the N line, and were the two middle cars of the train.
I was waiting for a downtown N/R train at 49th street when I saw a "TGC2" Inspection car coming uptown on the local track. It was pretty cool. The downtown N was a slant, head car 4342.
I just got the following email from NYCT.COM:
Dear MetroCard Vote&Win Voter:
We are pleased to announce that the winning MetroCard is the Statue of Liberty card (#5) and the winning MetroCard holder is the Cloisters holder (letter E). The New York skyline at night MetroCard (#2) and the Brooklyn Bridge MetroCard (#26) proved to be very popular as well.
The lucky winner of the set of MetroCards and holders, from Queens, NY, has been notified.
Thank you again for your participation and for telling us which cards and holders are your favorites.
Well, I'm not from Queens (any more) nor have I been notified, so I guess I didn't win :-{
It's high time they put the appearence of the MetroCard to good use. I say The back should have a kind of calendar/scorecard allowing riders to keep track of their use so they can determine how much they might be saving by buying the monthly pass.
Another idea is to put a mini-map of midtown on the back, or you could choose which part of town you want a map of.
They also might have sign language diagrams for the deaf on the back.
Or the Periodic table of elements.
Or, god forbid, a timetable for your particular line.
Here's a thought-subway maps on the back of FunPasses for tourists.
Though these days, the map you used in October may be useless in May.
I also didn't win :-( And none of the cards mentioned were on my list.
I voted for #55 New & old subway cars.
P.S. Just got some recent dip cards from a friend in Atlanta, they obviously haven't been talking to the suits in NYC, as NONE were adv., i.e. places to go: Carter Ctr [photo of former Pres & wife] (Jan); Martin L. King (Feb); Margaret Mitchell (Mar); Atlanta's mayor (I guess)(Apr)
Mr t__:^)
Gents, Ladies, maybe a normal item for you New Yorkers! but can anyone
post a list of what the label colours displayed under Car number plates related to..?
I know that the IRT division uses red,green,yellow,blue, black and of course puprle (#7 line!) to identify which yard each car is allocated to.
Does the IND and BMT divisions also have colours..??
As usual thanks for any reply to something which maybe "the norm"
to those Stateside but looking through some photos i'm curious!.
.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK.
Here are the colors associtated with IRT yards:
Red: 240th St
Orange: Jerome Ave.
Black: 239 St
Green: Unionport/E.180
Yellow: Westchester
Blue: Livonia
Purple: Corona
I don't remember Lenox Yard. I don't think they use a color scheme for the IND/BMT Yards.
does anybody know what the equipment under the seats of R32/R40 trains are? cause when i was just opening up the seats, there was stuff under there, and a lot of garbage.
laterz
blackdevl
The car heaters are under the seats and I think the PA speakers might have once been under them on the sides just like on the R-33/36 Redbirds. Dumb place to put speakers if you ask me.
Under the seats on R-32 thru R-42 you will find the door operators and the floor heaters. Needless to say, you should not be under the seats for any reason. The heaters are powered by 600 volts fused at 20 amps (more than enough to be lethal). Besides, the door equipment is relatively sensative to tampering. If you are caught, you will be arrested.
I came across some documentation from the 1970s that hopefully will put an end to some of the debate about braking on NYCT cars.
Suplimental Air
The issue of suplimental air has frequently been raised. Here are the documented facts about the subject. Only R-10 to R-28 and R-30A ever had suplimental air. Those cars had a maximum decelleration rate of 3.0 MPHPS in full service (dynamic or Air). The suplimental air increased that to 4.0 MPHPS. R-29 and up (Except R-30As) never had suplimental air. Therefore the statement that was made many moons ago that Suplimental Air was removed during overhaul simply was not true.
Composition Shoes
Except for R-44 and R46, all cars were originally delivered with cast iron brake shoes (except 4518-4549). The brake cylinder used for cast iron shoes had an effective area of 36 Square Inches while the Brake Cylinder used for composition shoes was 20 square inches. Cleearly, composition shoes needed
I came across some documentation from the 1970s that hopefully will put an end to some of the debate about braking on NYCT cars.
Suplimental Air
The issue of suplimental air has frequently been raised. Here are the documented facts about the subject. Only R-10 to R-28 and R-30A ever had suplimental air. Those cars had a maximum decelleration rate of 3.0 MPHPS in full service (dynamic or Air). The suplimental air increased that to 4.0 MPHPS. R-29 and up (Except R-30As) never had suplimental air. Therefore the statement that was made many moons ago that Suplimental Air was removed during overhaul simply was not true.
Composition Shoes
Except for R-44 and R46, all cars were originally delivered with cast iron brake shoes (except 4518-4549). The brake cylinder used for cast iron shoes had an effective area of 36 Square Inches while the Brake Cylinder used for composition shoes was 20 square inches. Cleearly, composition shoes needed less pressure to achieve the same braking effort.
Other misc. facts
Well since the R26/28 cars DID have the suplimental inshot valve with them when the left for Hornell,the statment "simply not true" is simply, not true.
When those cars first came back in the summer of'86, I remember the Motormen screaming about the long brakes.
Since those guys then were used to brakes that could stop in as much as 4.0 MPHPS, the new stuff tended to scare them. RTO told them it was in their head. After CED looked and found nothing was wrong. Of course not. They had been re-designed to stop 1MPHPS less.
I remember several times, as to qualifiying my stats, that I was refering to original SMEE cars only, in comparison. Since I own an R16, and there are no R32's or the like around, I needed something verifyable to look at.
I'm no engineer, but wouldn't it work, that if you decrease the effective area of pressure, PSI would need to be raised?
On freight cars, heavy cars had huge brake cylinders, while light ones, had small cylinders. This is because freight car brakes have no regulators on them. It's all done with equalization. So all freight cars must have the same brake cylinder pressures.
IND/BMT cars have bigger brake cylinders than IRT ones. And the B cars are obviously heavier. So what gives?
If the size of the brake cylinder is reduced, then why also reduce pressure? It's either one or the other.
I'm not following this.
Large cylinder-max press/full load 106PSI (I'm sure)
Small cylinder-max press/full load 56 PSI (not sure)
Let's use the R26 as the baseline. It left WABCO SMEE. It came back NYAB. They were heavier, with the A/C. But I don't know if the other gear changes made much of a difference. The old compressors had to weigh more. But the control group, and the converter/motor generator swap?
They upped the HP. Which was good. Unfourtunately, too many motormen saw the power to climb hills as an opportunity to speed.
I came across some documentation from the 1970s that hopefully will put an end to some of the debate about braking on NYCT cars.
Suplimental Air
The issue of suplimental air has frequently been raised. Here are the documented facts about the subject. Only R-10 to R-28 and R-30A ever had suplimental air. Those cars had a maximum decelleration rate of 3.0 MPHPS in full service (dynamic or Air). The suplimental air increased that to 4.0 MPHPS. R-29 and up (Except R-30As) never had suplimental air. Therefore the statement that was made many moons ago that Suplimental Air was removed during overhaul simply was not true.
Composition Shoes
Except for R-44 and R46, all cars were originally delivered with cast iron brake shoes (except 4518-4549). The brake cylinder used for cast iron shoes had an effective area of 36 Square Inches while the Brake Cylinder used for composition shoes was 20 square inches. Cleearly, composition shoes needed less pressure to achieve the same braking effort.
Source for this info is the "Rapid Transit Passenger Car Data" 4th edition, 1976
Other misc. facts
1) Balancing speed for the R-44 and R-46 was 80 MPH
2) Originally, all cars were designed to accellerate at 2.5 MPHPS
3) Maximum operating speed for all car classes was 45 MPH except R-44/64 which were designed to do 70 MPH on 'new lines'.
4) Floors on R-1 through R-14 was a material called magnesite, poured over an sub floor or Aluminum truss plates.
Lots more info available - Just ask
no copies are available at this time
When converting mainline coaches from Cast Iron to Composition brake shoes, it is common practice to sleeve the brake cylinder and install a smaller piston to reduce the force of the cylinder. Furthermore, composition shoes are less prone to fading as deceleration progresses. I have assisted with several COT&S (Clean Oil Test & Stencil) brake overhauls involving systems which have had this modification.
Please forgive the incomplete postings under Brakes then/Brakes Now. Apparently I need a new mouse.
Just don't get an Anon_e_mouse:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That deserves a rim shot.
I was riding a happytown toodle wagon smileyface-car (M4) tonight
and thought up this scenario:
Assuming the Reading Terminal were still the end of the Reading
lines, and there were no CC tunnel, then if you wanted to move
a car from Fern Rock to Lindenwold, how would you do it? I know
that Lindenwold connects to Delair Jct, and maybe some Conrail
seashore freight, and that Fern Rock ties into the Reading, but is
there an easy common point between those lines? (And I'm of course
assuming the Broad-Ridge Spur is no more.)
*sigh* Never thought up that kind of silliness on an M3. ;)
The Broad St. Line and Lindenwold Lines connect north of 8th and Market on the Broad Ridge Spur line, the Broad-Ridge Spur and Camden Bridge lines used to be linked when both were run by PRT and PTC.
However, if you wanted to do an all railway move, you would leave Lindenwold, follow the NJT line over the Delair bridge, follow Conrail's track 0 along through N. Philly to north of ZOO tower where you would use the new connection to the City Line, follow the City Line to the River line at Belmont Interlocking, follow the River line to the Low Grade Branch at River interlocking, follow the Low Grade to Newtown Jct., pass through Newtown Jct. and come out to Fern Rock.
No back up moves required (unless they reconfigured Newtown Jct. into something newly inconvenient).
Andy
Aha, interesting. But where was the connection between Reading and
Pennsy tracks before the new City Line connection?
You'd have to go thru Zoo interlocking and then back thru to the Reading line along the west side of the Schuylkill to its junction with the Schuylkill East Side branch. The Ingleside connection (from the Sch. East Side to Conrail track '0' alongside Amtrak) was installed to facilitate such moves.
There is an interesting story with why the Ingleside connection was built. Apparently, freights had to sit on Conrail's High Line to wait for the Amtrak dispatchers at Zoo to allow them to go thru Zoo (a very busy place) to access Track 0. Many of these freights could go up the old CSX from South Phila but there was no connection between the Schuylkill East Side line (CSX) and Track 0, so they had to go up the High Line and then get caught up at Zoo. Amtrak was also interested in getting freight track removed from Zoo.
The story goes that Conrail's president looked out his window at CR HQ (Commerce Square at 20th & Market) and could see freights sitting still on the High Line for hours. He asked why and was told. He then allegedly told someone to solve it and the Ingleside Connection was born.
With CSX taking over the High Line and connecting from its Baltimore Line at 49th St in Southwest Phila, some are now saying that the East Side line's days are numbered. We shall see.
Where can I find information on the Philly tunnel connection? I would like to know just when it was built, also just where the lines on either side formerly terminated. Is this described somewhere on this site? On the SEPTA site?
Dan,
There's a book by Gerry Williams called "Trains, Trolleys & Transit"
published by Railpace that should detail things for you. In the
meantime:
There were 2 rival railroads, the Pennsylvania and the Reading.
The Pennsy's final CC stop was Suburban Station. A few blocks down
Market Street, Reading Terminal was the end of the line for the
Reading's trains. The shed still stands, but traffic to those old
lines is now routed through the commuter tunnel and meets the main
Reading line farther north.
In the 80's, they broke through from Suburban station east, created
the Market East terminal, and then pushed north up to the old Reading
lines, bypassing Reading Terminal which is now the convention center.
Hope that helps a little!
-Lee
You got it. You can still visit the old Reading Terminal, which is now part of the Pennsylvania Convention Center. It's been restored and is a great place.
To all concerned:
I have access to a supply of Willy B. Recon. brochures. As a courtesy to my fellow SubTalkers, I will gladly send out copies (2) FREE OF CHARGE while supplies last. Send requests to me via SHADO183@juno.com
Doug aka BMTman
Are these the DOT brochures with color photos, or just the NYCT brochures giving the reroute information?
These are the expensively produced, color booklets with the fold-out re-routing map. (If they're gonna spend the kind of money on the bridge that they used on the brochures, then we are going to have a VERY good East River crossing when all the work is done!) ;)
Doug aka BMTman
I rode the BMT today from Fulton St to Atlantic Av via the Willy B using four trains and a bus. Here is some of the things I noticed at the stations.
All stations seem to have proper signage concerning the special services running during the shutdown.
Chambers St: The weekend "S" arrives and departs from the southbound exp tk J4,rather than relaying on the tail track south of the station.
Essex St: All service is on the center track J 3/4. A walkway has been constructed accross the ntbd J1 track for access to the former employee only entrance which is used for exit only to the B 39 bus. The special metrocard (white) is issued here at a booth. Passengers entering on the normal southbound platform must cross under via the IND to reach the center platform.
Marcy Av: The temporary center platform extends for 8 car lengths but only the east half is used for 4 car M trains. There is a walkway accross the stbd lcl tk J2 at the west end of the platform. All passengers use the southbound platform to enter and leave. Access to the northbound platform is closed off. The stairway at the west end of the southbound platform is open from 6a to 10p but from 6a-10a is used only for exiting passengers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One thing that was pointout in our Subtalk Railfan trip was the service notice (red) in Hebrew at Marcy Ave... >G<
(Service notice in Hebrew in Williamsburg). Shouldn't it have been in Yiddish?
Hebrew and Yiddish both use the Hebrew alphabet.
Okay IT was the HEBREW Alphabet, I don't remember enough to read it to determine if it was Yiddish or Hebrew and it was on the free side of the fare zone so I did not get close to the sign to make out the vowels.
There were no vowels on the sign! I tried to make out a few words, but it's been too long since I was 13 :-) I do remember reading in NYCT publicity that they would be making brochures available in many lanuguates, including Yiddish, so my guess is that's what we saw.
According to my girlfreind, it's Hebrew. She can read Yiddish, but not Hebrew.
-Hank
Both are read from right to left, are they not?
Yes, and both are generally written without the "vowels" one might be familiar with from prayer books - Yiddish has adapted some of the letters to signify the vowels, while Hebrew simply does without them. Yiddish would be a logical language to use for notices at Marcy Ave., given the large number of Satmar Hasidim living in Williamsburgh who use that station on a regular basis.
Rt M Nassau St-West End Lcl runs ntbd only am rush Bay Pkwy to Chambers. Equiptment then deadheads to Essex tj J3/4,reverse via J4 to Canal,then reverse via J3 to layup btwn Canal and Essex.
Service runs in both directions during the pm rush.
Equiptment:
J/Z 6 car R-42
M-Nassau St-West End 8 car R-42
M-Myrtle Av Lcl 4 car R-40 slants
S-Nassau St Shuttle 4 car R-40 M (Yes,solid trains of R-40M's)
L-8 car R-42
Of course this is only the trains that I saw. If anyone wants the numbers please e-mail me.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I rode a ten car train of 8 R-40M's and 2-R-42's on the 63 Street Shuttle today, previous to the Willy B closure R-32's were used here.
I also saw a few R-40M's on the N. This combined with the R-40M's on the Nassau St Shuttle seems to put all R-40M's on the Southern Section running in nearly solid trains for the first time in years.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Last time I saw solid R40M consists was back in 1969 and 1970 when they were running the brake test cars on the "EE" and "GG", AND into the mid 70s on the "E" and "F". I think there also were some on the "D" in the 80s too.
Wayne
While we were waiting at Canal Street last Friday for the SubTalk Farewell to the Willy B Fan Trip, about 5 minutes before 6:00 pm an 8 car train of solid R-40M's passed by. I forget whether it was on the J or M.
The last couple of days, I have notice anywhere between 70 to 100 R32 cars operating on the A train. Can anyone shed some light on this? Is this temporary? Why is this occurring? Will the A lose some or all of the R38's and/or R44's because of this.
Thats good!!!!!!!!! The A line is on my list of my trips this summer. I could get a railfan window!! Cant wait!! A railfan window from 207 to Far Rock........Man oh man!!!!!!!!!!
That sounds like a trip for me too plus the N train
It probably has to do with weekend express service in Brooklyn, but I could be wrong. I would certainly hope the R-38s stay on the A. The R-44s? You can have them.
This wouldn't be the first time the A line has seen R-32s. I rode them on the A once in 1969 or thereabouts. We were at 14th St. when such a train pulled in. I was a bit surprised to see anything except R-10s, but since I liked the R-32s, that was OK. It was too bad we had to get off at 42nd St. I would have loved to have continued on that train on the CPW express dash, especially because the R-32s made it look so easy.
There have been a few consists of R32 on the A for the last few months. I would guess that this has to do with the three-way equipment swap between Jamaica, Pitkin and CI as well as the beefed-up service needed now that they are running express full-time and also need more locals to cover.
Wayne
Mr. R,
I am heading over to Roosevelt Island tomorrow night to have dinner with my Mom. What do you look like? Just in case you have nothing better to do...
Has r68 cars been totally removed from the N train, or these R40ms addition the the current rolling stock?
No such luck. The R68's are still there. There are less R32's. See previous posts as to why.
The southbound Canarsie Line track P1 is out of service from Broadway Jct to Atlantic. Both the tracks and the concrete roadbed are being removed. Stbd L trains use the following route; Broadway Jct tk Q1 to J1A to K1 at Atlantic back to P1.Its an opportunity to ride a little bit of Fulton St El trackage.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Will it be back to normal service?
I believe that it will when the entire Atantic Av reconstruction is done.
Larry,RedbirdR33
RedbirdR33:
That's a negative on the service going "back to normal". From what a motorman on the "L" line told me a couple of weeks back when the demolition started by Atlantic -- part of the reconstruction program will include the "realigning" of the Canarsie routes so that there is no longer that wide turn made by the northbound trains by Sutter as they go toward Atlantic (to accommodate the tracks of the defunct Fulton line).
Basically the work will include having southbound trains running on K1 all the way into Sutter (re-aligning the existing "lay-up" tracks). The Northbound trains will of course end up going straight out of Sutter over the K2 tracks. At Atlantic, there will have to be some serious track re-aligning to accommodate this arrangement, if I am correct. But that's the idea in a nut shell -- making the Canarsie line a straight run pretty much from start to finish. I believe it is all related to the dreaded CBTC program that the NYCT wants to implement on the "L" sometime after 2000.
Doug aka BMTman
Why is CBTC dreaded?
Well, for starters it is one step closer to one-man 10-car train operation.
The public won't be thrilled to hear that, and nor will the motorman's union.
I heard the motormen are going to fight CBTC to the end. The public should side with them on this fight. I wouldn't totally trust automated train operation (keep Y2K in mind). Give me a human at the controls any day.
The only good benefit would be running more trains more often from having them spaced apart as little as 25 ft.? The L currently runs trains at a reasonably frequent rate.
Doug aka BMTman
Can't say I agree. Riders/taxpayers will benefit from anything that allows greater productivity, more speed, and more capacity. It may not work but we have to try.
You know the dropped back loader on NYC garbage trucks, with the big piece of metal that comes down and swipes the garbage up? It was invented back in the 1930s. Perhaps you could lobby to go back to dump trucks for refuse collection, with two men on top and three on the side to load.
TWU members get the benefits of productivity gains elsewhere in the economy. They have to have some themselves.
Let's not forget the safety of such a system. How many fatal accidents have occured on BART, PATCO, WMATA and MARTA? All systems are mostly automated, with one-man crews. How many passenger injuries that can be directly attributed to this type of operation? Only labor us opposed to this type of operation, solely in their own self-interest, not that I blame them, however. They have every right to fight for their jobs.
-Hank
Two fatal accidents on WMATA, one due to derailment and one due to rear-end collision in its 23-year history; not a bad track record.
Only the derailment between Smithsonian and Federal Triangle resulted in the death of passengers; the rear-end collision north of Shady Grove, however, killed the train operator. Breda 3252 was telescoped a distance of 21 feet in that one.
Wayne
Wayne,
Here's an interesting tidbit of info concerning that WMATA accident that claimed passenger lives (not sure of total):
At just about the same moment as the accident on WMATA occurred, the USair jet hit the 14th street bridge with the loss of so many lives.
A good friend of mine who became a Washington D.C. fireman related to me the story, he told me that the Dept was severely hard pressed to respond to both, and that at first the almost simultaneous calls were thought to be pranks! Alas they were not.
Mike H.
I believe it was an Air Florida Jet, not US Air in that one.
BTW - I believe that it was Air Frorida (which was ultimately swallowed up bu USAirways.
One other interesting tidbit....It was that incident and his 'poor taste joke' about it, that got Howard Stern run out of DC.
Yes, it was an Air Florida Boeing 737-200 that went into the Potomac around the same time the WMATA subway accident occured.
Air Florida was NOT bought up by US Air. They just folded up and disappeared, their fleet was liquidated (i.e. sold off to other carriers).
[BTW - I believe that it was Air Florida (which was ultimately swallowed up by USAirways.
One other interesting tidbit....It was that incident and his 'poor taste joke' about it, that got Howard Stern run out of DC.]
Sounds odd. That crash happened in 1981 or 82, and I didn't think Howard was a well-known personality at that time.
Now his latest Littleton crack, *that* was going a bit over the line.
[Howard's recent comment - Now his latest Littleton crack, *that* was going a bit over the line.]
I've heard about the same comment from a number of people who don't normaly listen to him (myself incl.). Maybe there's how he'll go away somehow ?
Hi from Binghamton Univ.
Mr t__:^)
You apparently haven't heard a little piece of work called "Mancow Muller." His show (originating from Chicago but syndicated) makes Howard Stern look like a BBC announcer in a tuxedo reading poetry by comparison!
But Howards sick comment got him lots of publicity, ultimately got him into the New York market, and into the national spotlight with his shows on E and CBS, no matter if you like him or not.
Yes, his insensitive remark was definitely not appreciated in Denver. There has been a movement here to get him off the air. I don't listen to him, anyway, and didn't actually hear him make that comment.
From what I read Automatic Train Operation seems very safe. However, it ain't foolproof. And, coupled with _bad management_, I believe it killed that operator at Shady Grove. It was an icy/snowy night, which affects braking distances BUT ALSO SCREWED UP THE SPEED SENSORS on that train. The operator wanted to put the train into manual (or other operators on the system made that request that night, I don't remember exactly.) The request(s) were denied. WMATA does NOT want operators driving their trains, at least not at the time. Basically, they felt they got too many flat wheels when operators operated! Anyways, the unlucky fellow slammed through Shady Grove station at lots of speed and then into a train parked beyond, all in Automatic Mode.
On Patco, they MAKE their operators manually drive a segment of every trip. They realize that the human judgement at the trains controls is very important. At the time, WMATA had a control freak at their helm who did not like this idea. It cost them an operator, and some family a father... (If I remember, he did have kids).
I think the PATCO system results in an incredibly safe system. I'd go further and say maybe even safer than NY - no Union Square disaster on such a system. I do not know as much about BART...But keeping the human at the controls, even just "supervising," is crucial.
As for OPTO, I cannot imagine NYCTA trying opto on a rush hour...any train! It won't go anywhere if they do. But in the middle of the night, well, I see no reason the TA should not go for it. Like Larry said, TA workers benefit from productivity gains...
I wouldn't totally trust automated train operation (keep Y2K in mind). Give me a human at the controls any day.
Why? It seems to work reasonably well in Washington DC, Atlanta, San Francisco and Singapore. (There is a trainman at the front though to operate the doors).
--Mark
In Atlanta, Washington, and San Franciso, (I don't know anything about Singapore) virtually all of the stations are straight and don't have obstructed views from the front to the back. Furthermore, I don't recall seeing trains longer than about eight cars. In many of the New York stations (particularly the ex-IRT and ex-BMT), the station itself curves and you can not see all the way to the end from the front. In fact, even the Utica Avenue Station on the Fulton Street subway poses visibility issues with the dip for the unbuilt IND Phase II line.
"I heard the motormen are going to fight CBTC to the end. The public should side with them on this fight. I wouldn't totally trust automated train operation (keep Y2K in mind). Give me a human at the controls any day."
CBTC will not replace the train operator. It will, however, make it less likely that he can screw up. It's been said that every catastrophe in mass transit, since the Titanic, has been caused,at least in part, by human error.
Does modifying air brakes outside of the design parameters of the signal system count?
Erik, I generally appreciate what you have to say, but I have to agree with steve - you are badgering him on this issue!
I think automatic train controls are the way to go. It's tough to maintain concentration and avoid human error over millions of miles. That's why I think I'm safer on the train than in my own car -- I know my attention can wander.
But in fairness, Steve, once you have automatic train control systemwide, the question will be raised "why can't the train operator control the doors?" After all, bus drivers do it. And more technology (ie. cameras) could be used to scan the platforms.
I expect we will have full time OPTO. When? A couple of years after every other transit agency in North America has it. It's been a long time since NYC has been a hotbed of innovation.
The mistake everyone seems to be making (or perhaps I mis-read the documentation) but CBTC is not meant to be automatic train control. It is an advanced signal system that allows trains to run faster and closer together but does not have the capability of operating the train. Does anyone know differently?
[The mistake everyone seems to be making (or perhaps I mis-read the documentation) but CBTC is not meant to be automatic train control. It is an advanced signal system that allows trains to run faster and closer together but does not have the capability of operating the train. Does anyone know differently?]
The documentation I read indicated that CBTC was capable of Automatic Train Operation (ATO), but that this capability would not be used.
The other day, I happened to see R-42s 4612-3 at Church Avenue on the F. These cars are serving as test beds for CBTC equipment. The people inside were putting up posters from Alstom detailing that company's equipment (I guess for visiting dignitaries). ATO was mentioned.
Maybe I'm missing something here: CBTC allows more trains to run closer together. Fine. But they still have to make a station stop. How can that be done any faster? I think of a line like the E & F. One train comes in as soon as the leader leaves. How can you get any more trains in there?
(How can you get more trains). Reuter said that CBTA would lift the maximum from 25 to 35. I don't know how this would be accomplished. Certainly, dwell time is an issue, and as A Pardi says if you don't have people on the busy platform it will eat up the gains. But it could work great on long express runs and tunnels, allowing multiple trains to merge in and use the same tunnel before diverging again. That's may main interest, because of the Manhattan Bridge nightmate.
you mention 25 to 35 is that miles per hour or increasing train thoroughput(trains per hour) . CBTC would allow or should I say could allow more trains to operate in a signal block using communcation versus current technology. More trains could operate not neccessarily in relation to train speed. IN the current method as i was told that one train in a signal block has at LEAST two red signals behind it the closest to the train with tripping device at danger and the other red signal with trip arm below the ball of the running rail. The idea is to allow a maximum safe distance for an emergency application of brakes without that train colliding with the train in the block ahead.
Could it be utilized this way in the Montague St. tunnel?
how will CBTC make trains operate faster and safer when more than one train will be in the same signal block? currently only one train may occupy a signal block with at least two red signals behind a train on the circuit. putting more trains in service during rush hour isn't possible due to the safe spacing of trains with the current signal system. If passengers would get out of the habit of holding doors and stepping out of doorways letting passengers onto and off of trains would speed up train dwell time dramatically. On BART passengers would line up at door positions let passengers exiting trains and step aboad the train. IN NYC it seems customary to barge into a subway car while customers exit slowing things down. WHAT about baby carriages on trains during RUSH HOUR WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT? PLEASE.... during rush hour the moment a train develops door problems a train must be taken out of service slowing up service more. It looks cute holding doors for someone rushing to a catch a train after awhile the door mechanism will eventually malfunction and cause a train to be removed from service.
CBTC is a "moving block" signal system, where the block moves along with the train. CBTC will allow for train separation of as little as 25 feet, though trains would not operate at speed that closely together. The current "fixed block" system assumes the worst case, that the leading train is at the back of a signal block and the trailing train is at the front of the previous block.
You have a point, though. Excessive dwell times can negate any signal system enhancements. People must get it into their heads that the train doesn't move while someone's in the doors.
David
[how will CBTC make trains operate faster and safer when more than one train will be in the same signal block?]
thanks for the info, i suppose someday we'll have cab signalling in the subway system ? CBTC is still a mystery...
I had posted this message a while back but can't remember if anybody responded to it. Anyway here goes. With CBTC are there any safety designs built into it to prevent train collisions such as there is with running a red signal know with the block system?
(No one answered). Perhaps no one here knows the answer. I don't.
Of course there are, otherwise it would not be considered a moving block system.
I'm not sure, but if it works like cab signals, then the closer the train is to the one in front of it, the lower the speed limit drops, until finnaly it reaches zero. Should the train exceed the speed limit, a penalty application of the brakes would occur.
Yes, the train crashes with another train!!!
Yes. If there was nothing at all to prevent a collision, then you wouldn't even have a signalling system. The main purpose of CBTC, like any signalling system, is to ensure safe operation and prevent collisions.
With traditional signalling, there are the trip arms at trackside, which mechanically trigger the brakes when trains get too close. With CBTC, the brakes are also applied when trains get too close, but it is done electronically, by a computer on the train.
CBTC differs from traditional signalling in that the "red signals" are virtual. In essence, the red signals are there, but they are invisible - they move along with the trains, their position also changing in relation to speed. However, if a train passes one of these virtual red lights, yes, the brakes will be applied by the computer.
So with CBTC, there is nothing mechanical to stop the train, like there is with traditional signalling. This probably worries some people, but as with any critical safety system, CBTC is designed using fail-safe techniques, where if any part of the CBTC system fails, the train will stop, instead of continuing without protection.
Thanks very much Rich for making the CBTC a lot clearer on its operation. But as Steve had pointed out a while back it will probably be used in conjucntion with the present signalling system. When you consider the work trains etc.
Well, I'm by no means the expert, but wouldn't keeping the wayside signals defeat the maintenance advantage of CBTC? Part of the reason for moving to CBTC is to improve headways, as discussed here, but I've also heard that another advantage is saving money on maintenance of wayside equipment.
Here in Philly, they are talking about converting the MFL to cab signalling after all the M-4s are delivered. This in NOT CBTC, it is fixed-block. The reason given for doing this is to save money by eliminating the cost of maintaining wayside signals. I haven't heard any other reason for the conversion, and from what I know about cab signaling, there aren't too many other reasons to do it.
I would like to hear feedback on this. Does anyone know of any other advantages of cab signalling over standard wayside signalling?
And wouldn't it make sense for NYC to take advantage of this aspect of CBTC and get rid of wayside signals altogether? (If and when they implement CBTC on any given line.) They would have to install the technology on work trains, yes - but that's no big deal if you're going to install it on hundreds of revenue cars... right?
Cab signalling allows trains to run in both directions on the same track This provides greater flexibility in that you can utilize the opposite track to run around a stalled train. The current system of having track signalled for traffic in one direction only means that to run against the current of traffic you must establish a manual block by verbal or other means and allow only one train at a time within the block.You can signal a line in both directions with wayside signals but this is expensive and is usually done only in river tunnels,yard approaches or terminals.Also cab signals instantly reflect any change in the block such as the unauthorized throwing of a switch or a break in the running rail.
Larry,RedbirdR33
All the things you mention can and are done in automatic block territory. The LIRR has Rule 251 for track signalled one way and Rule 261 for both ways.
A good example is the main line. From Jay interlocking at Jamaica, to Harold Interlocking in Long Island City, the four track main is all 261. There are Cab signals (rule 409) in conjunction with wayside signals. Unless you are going against the normal flow of traffic on one of the outside tracks. Then it's rule 410. Cab signals only. No wayside signals. Middle tracks are very flexible.
With CBTC, as with other forms of automatic speed control, failure
to obey the speed being indicated by the signal system will cause
a penalty brake application. This means vital (fail-safe) signal-
grade equipment aboard each subway car (at least those that have
operating cabs) with some degree of tamper protection. There
will also be, in the NYCTS CBTC system, much longer fixed block
sections with conventional track circuit protection and trips as
a fall-back and to provide broken rail detection and switch locking.
I would guess, but I am only guessing, that a rogue train with
its CBTC cut-out would eventually get tripped at one of these points.
Correct. But already we have something similar with station time: a second train can come very close behind it's leader already making a station stop and as the first train begins to leave the station, the second one can ease on in. Eventhough you may be able to operate trains closer together between stations, you'll always have that complete stop at the station where it won't matter how close the other trains behind you are spaced together. They still have to wait for you to leave!
Again, we're talking about apples and squash . When I said that CBTC will permit the trains to run faster, I meant the MAS (maximum allowable speed) would be increased and the spacing between trains would be decreased. I was not discussing the turnips that slow things down.
Erik, It absolutely does include modifying cars to operate outside of the envelope of the signal system but so does falling asleep at the controls. It seems to me that there is enough culpability on both sides. Lobbing grenades is not the answer. Making things work is.
Well, there I will agree.
Enough of this though. Back to more relaxing things.
Steve, or anyone else: I have seen a picture of the IND reccieving R1's at 207th Street on the car float that used to be there. A steam engine was doing the work, and not the IND flat motors. As far as I have ever seen, that's the only photo of a steam engine that I know of.
I'd like to find out when did the switch to diesel occur?
What did the original diesels look like? And the Steam, any one have the specs to go with the photos?
I know there were a pair of ex U.S. Army Whitcomb diesels from 1943 that ran on SBK. #9 is at TMNY.
I have a recollection of a film clip of R-1s being unloaded using a steam loco in either of 2 videos,
"Empire Beneath The Streets" or "River of Steel" I'll try to find the clip for you. You can even come over to the shop one night to see it (or borrow it) if you promise not to try to organize a job action .
#5 was built in 1910 but the first IND loco was a "motor flat car" (#41). The R-3 was built as a drill motor for the IND in 1931. According to the documentation I have, it had four 190 HP traction motors on the #1 truck while the #2 truck was a trailer. It is still sitting in Coney Island Yard on one of the museum tracks.
Doug: Thanks for the info. I had assumed that they would P1 stbd and K1 ntbd. That's an awful lot of work just to get rid of some tracks that don't seem to be bothering anyone.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The discussion of East New York raises the question--who pays for structural work on the New York City subway system? Does the City, since I assume the people of the City still own the system? Does the City have any say over what's done? What City department would oversee what is done?
Taking it a bit further, did anyone responsible to the people of the City or to their elected representatives authorize the nonsense of 63rd Street and the worse nonsense of the Queens Boulevard connection from 63rd Street?
Wonderingly,
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
The TA, like any agency of the government with the word
"Authority" in it's name is a quasi independent body.
Obstensibly, this was to prevnt it from becoming a political football. Look at what's going on at the Bored of (mis)education.
Triboro Bridge, Port, School Construction, all of them have had their finnacial trouble. And none of them are TRULLY acountable to the people they serve.
The TA does what it pleases. Larry Reuter answers to Virgil Conway. Virgil Conway answers to the Governor of NY state. With that level of bueracracy, it's totally imposible for these people to be held accountable. You can have all the public hearings and protests you want. It won't change a thng. Witness EVERY SINGLE fare hike. OPTO. Station closings. It takes a HUGE, I mean HUGE public out cry before those megolomaniacs take notice from their ivory tower.
There is a part of the TA's budget that comes out of the mayor's, so in effect Rudy does have some, small influence. He appoints several members to the boards of these Authorities, and therefore controls their votes. But still, if Larry Reuter wants to, he could still tell Rudy
"Fu-Q" And there really isn't much Il Rudy could do.
Typically, construction is paid for from the TAs Capital Projects budget. That budget is funded with city, state and largely federal monies. At one time, the TA would get legislation passed to enable it to use capital money for operating expenses. Today, the situation has reversed itself and with a surplus of operating funds, the feds want to reduce their subsidy in lieu of using that operating surplus for capital expenditures.
You should take a look at the City's Ten Year Capital Plan. Back in the early 1980s, the city signed an MOU which specified a minimum city committment to the TA capital plan. Since Rudy took office, it's been contributing the minimum. But that MOU is set to expire, and that the city will go back to the minimum committment it made when the MTA was formed which (like the deal on the TA's share of the TBTA surplus) was not indexed for inflation. It's only $5 million, as the city's Office of Management and Budget gleefully pointed out.
[At one time, the TA would get legislation passed to enable it to use capital money for operating expenses.]
Which is what killed off the Second Avenue line during the Beame administration.
And much more!!!!
The city's fiscal crisis of the 70s killed the 2nd Ave. line. On the other hand, the 63rd St. and Archer Ave. lines were built anyway. Go figure.
whats going on exactly at east new york? is it structural or aesthetics? could any one provide specifics
Serious construction, I'm afraid.
Besides the already mentioned demolition of track P1 and the razing of the eastern-most unused old Fulton El trackage at Atlantic -- there is the current construction of a new overpass at Broadway-East New York station. It was made expressly to assist in the heavy-commuter traffic due to the Willy B. closure. It will take riders from the southbound "L" platform and lead over the track to the center-platform for the northbound train. As most any "L" rider knows, the only passageway at present time is a very clostrophobic underpass from the northbound platform to the rest of the Broadway-Junction structure. It certainly needed to be replaced years ago.
Currently, this new structure is still in it's skeletal stages. I assume that it will be completed sometime next month.
Doug aka BMTman
They have another crossunder towards the south end of the station (which, BTW, has a rather unpleasant aroma) - are they replacing this?
One more thing - where is this overpass going to be located in relation to the existing underpass?
Wayne
A question regarding the proposed platform alignment at Atlantic Avenue - which are going to stay and which are going to go? Are they going to do like was done at Ditmas Avenue - convert the island platform to a side platform. I seriously hope that they don't destroy the period look of that station.
Wayne
Well in be in NY tomorrow for the summer. I will be on the L this weekend. Look like Ill get the camera ready for a piece of history......
Do we have successive track plans for the East New York complex in our historical data?
I'm sure someone has them in their collection but no, there aren't historical track plans on the web site if that's what you were asking.
I think I know the answer to this one already, but is the TA going to reconstruct Marcy Ave station to an express/local island platforms?
I really don't know but the platform over the center track is only a temporary one
Larry,RedbirdR33
The station was recently rebuilt. The island is for cross-overs during the bridge reconstruction.
HI EVERYBODY! I'm a big subway map collector. I'm from Buenos Aires and I've have lotsa maps, but I would like to exchange them in other to increase my collection.
So if you are interested, mail me and let's trade some.
pd: I think it's obvious but I'm not talking about getting money for my maps.
That's all.
Thank you!
GUS
was here
Sounds wonderful! I also collect subway maps from all over the world, and I don't have any from Buenos Aires yet (although I was there a few years ago). I have New York, Berlin, Barcelona and London maps to offer. You could e-mail me at wtheurer@yahoo.com. Best regards!
How does the system handle drainage in stations and tunnels that are below sea level???
Anyone know???
Ejector Rooms! The wastewater winds up in a sump, and a pump pushes it up to the city sewer system. Some of these are elctric pumps, but there are several pnumatic systems as well.
-Hank
Does anyone know exactly how the pneumatic ones work? Does the air spin a pump, or is it like a fish tank filter? :) Can either the pneumatic or electric ones cope with rocks, etc in the water? WShat's the age of the average pump?
The air drives a pump. They can only handle water.
As it was explained to me, it's similar to a fish filter. Basically, the pump 'shoots' the air into the pipe, and that pushes the water up with it. There are screens that catche the stuff that gets carried with the water. It's basically the same concept that rattles the pipes.
-Hank
Where is the pressurized air from in the pneumatic pumps? Are there pressurized air lines throughout the system?
There are compressor houses all over the system, as there are still many pneumatic switches and signal apparatus; PATH is all pneumatic. I don't know if the same system is used to supply air for the ejector system or not, I'd put my money on a seconary system, or a back up system.
-Hank
Thank you for a straight and concise answer.
I assume the pumps are electric and also need to be cleaned, repaired, replaced. Can anyone elaborate???
Also, I imagine that there are dangers and safety issues involving water and electricity.
Well, lots of basements around here have sump pumps, most of a submersible design. And while the owners manuals all say 'must be hooked to a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interuppter) outlet or circut, just like hair dryers, they don't have one built in, unlike hair dryers. Nothing more fun then setting up float switches in a sump tank in the Rockaways......
-Hank
David Pirmann
Jersey City, NJ 07302
May 5, 1999
Alberteen Anderson
NYC Transit Government Relations
130 Livingston St. Third Floor
Brooklyn, NY 11201
Dear Mr. Anderson:
I was given your name in response to an inquiry regarding the rules and regulations governing photography on/of New York City Transit property. I am the "webmaster" of an Internet Web site regarding the history of the NYC Subway and other transit systems, http://www.nycsubway.org/. Believe it or not, this subject is under constant discussion on a number of Internet transit forums, and is important to the transit hobbyist community. However, no one seems to have the definitive regulation. A summary of the regulation over time as I understand it is as follows:
1974. Part 1051.9(b) of the Codes, Rules, and Regulations of the State of New York describes photography as a prohibited use: No person except members of the press who hold working press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department shall take moving pictures of photographs within the limits of the New York City transit system.
As recently as 1997, I received an updated edition of the same regulation from the MTA Office of the Chairman in response to a similar inquiry: Photography, filming, or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors, tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the NYC Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment.
Recently I was told that the permit requirement for photography has returned. If you could please supply a recent copy of the regulation governing photography, this issue could be settled once and for all. Or, perhaps you could simply answer the question: Under what circumstances is a permit required (i.e. commercial photography, hobbyist photography, tourist photography, etc.), how is it obtained, how is it enforced, and what are the penalties for violations?
If a permit is required for hobbyist photography, please consider this letter as my request to obtain one.
The transit hobbyist community eagerly awaits a response in this matter. Your time spent in answering is greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
David Pirmann
Oy, this is not good. Is this a one-time permit or does one have to be obtained on a visit-by-visit basis? Looks like I am going to wait and see what this is all about before I venture out again, so May 15 trip (and all future ones as well) on hold until I get some more information.
Wayne
I hope this permit thing turns out to be false. Because Photos of the subway systerm is the main attaction of this site. All I can say is keep our fingers cross and hope for the Best. Also we should thank Mr. Pirmann for his quick responds to put the Rumors to rest.
I have (and have had) a permit for the last 2 years. It's curently expired, now that I look at it, but it's simple to obtain. Just go to the Livingston St. building, government and public relations section, and ask to see Ms. Barbara Grant.
-Hank
I don't need the permit to take picture but im still going to take more picture of Subway cars and Buses. You should know this is freedom and you do what ever you want. I don't believe the rule and I have the right to take pictures. So what are you going to do? Put me in Jail for taking Pictures?? Well the rule is kind of silly and i been taking picture for month now but no one did not stop me for taking the picture. So have a good night Railfans.
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
It's a safety issue. Basically, the permit requires that you waive your right to hold the TA and its numerous affiliations imdeminable (John Bredin, is this the right word?) in case you get hit by a train while your eyeball is stuck to the viewfinder.
Quote:
...hereby release the City of New York, Metropolitan Transit Authority, New York City Transit Authority, Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority, Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority, and their respective members, officers, agents and employees, from any and all liability whatsoever for any loss, personal injury (including death) [Emphasis Mine] of property damage which may be suffered by the visitor while on, at or about the premisis of the...[authority], irrespective of whether such loss, injury or damage shall have been due to the negligence of the City of New York, Metropolitan Transit Authority, New York City Transit Authority, Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority, Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority, and their respective members, officers, agents or employees, or otherwise.
That's from the release I signed when I got my permit, which also happens to be (as I was told) the same release required of production companies when using the facilities.
-Hank
Have you ever stop by Cops or Tranist employees for taking picture?
While I can't speak for Hank, Mark, Dave or others regarding their experiences with Police or NYCT employees, I have had two run-ins, both in 1998 - once on March 28 1998 the other on September 19 1998.
The first occurred at Franklin Ave IRT the other happened aboard a southbound "R" train after I took a picture of that strange plaque at Union Street. The C/R saw me and told me he would notify the police; so I got off at 9th St and got on the next "N". I was bound for 9th Avenue and I saw the cops looking round (ostensibly for me) at 36 Street so I got on and was gone.
The incident at Franklin IRT involved a pax complaint-someone thought I was taking a picture of them so they called for a cop. They questioned me, one threatened to take my film and camera, I politely objected, the other calmed the first one down and I went on my way.
The watchword is "Be Discreet" but now that a permit seems to be a requirement, I may have to go and get one. I've decided to go ahead with my May 15 trip, the authorities and their silly rules nonwithstanding.
Wayne
Did they ask you for the permit??
At Franklin Avenue, the more aggressive of the two officers DID.
I had to explain my hobby and mission to him, and he was dubious, suggesting to his partner that I join them at the nearest precinct.
The partner drew the line at that and settled for my explanation.
Wayne
Well I had my run in with a station cleaner at Jay Street takeing a picture of an R38 on the C Line. Ofcause I toke the picture of the back of the train. As I walk down the Plat the cleaner was going to make a big issue out of it. There where 4 cops at the newsstand so I quickly got on the Coney Island bound F train before the doors closed.
Hopefully when I use my summer for photo tours I will get some good redbird shots on the No.2,5,6,7 Lines.
That's funny! Maybe the station cleaner was having a bad day or something. If that were me I just might have had a hard time keeping a straight face. However, police, conductors, T/Os, station agents, - I take heed of all of them.
Wayne
Hey Pelham Bay Dave Jr, Maybe we should get together and take alot of redbirds before they replace R142. I been taking picture of Redbird for months now and i took some of redbird yesterday. Well i love riding on the redbirds.
Here's a good spot to take pictures of Redbirds in action:
The NORTH end of the SOUTHBOUND #2/#5 platform at East Tremont/Bronx Zoo/West Farms Square station. No flash needed. Vicious curve.
Another good spot is the north end of the northbound platform at Simpson Street on the same line. In fact, the whole elevated line from Jackson to East 180th is a good place to take pictures of trains, stations, and some beautifully rehabilitated pre-war buildings in the background, esp.at Simpson and at Prospect.
Wayne
Hey Wayne That a good spot to take picture at East Tremont Station and Simpson St too. But i live not to far at Simpson St.
That whole line (and the upper reaches of the #1/#9 line as well) are very nice - ornate station houses, old-fashioned woodwork (I think one station even has a stove in it), fancy ironwork, nice detailing. The only complaint I have is those dopey platform lights with the big ugly gray shades. They really look out of place. They did that all over the place - on the Broadway El in Brooklyn, the Jerome Avenue line, etc. Those lights are awful! I like the ones like they have at Sheepshead Bay, Myrtle Avenue (J/M/Z) and Atlantic Avenue (L) with the trapezoid shades. I do believe some of the IRT stations had them too.
Wayne
Hey maybe we should meet on a Saturday along the No.2 Line since that my dads line that day.
Join the club, my friend. I love riding on the Redbirds, too.
I was stopped twice, once before I got a permit (by tthe then NYCTPD), and once after by a supervisor on the
I was stopped twice, once before I got a permit (by tthe then NYCTPD), and once after by a supervisor on the work train I took pictures of @ Whitehall St. The cop informed me that my activity was illegal, but we wound up talking about the subway; the supervisor seemed a little pissed, but considering they had his train in the hole at 3AM on a Saturday Morning......
-Hank
In fact, he's on the right side of the photo.
-Hank
the correct term is to "hold harmless" ,indemnable would be the same as liable.
The photo permits are usually good for a year.
I don't trust you and who need the Permits for taking the picture???? Who do you think you are???? Are you playing game with us?????
This should be interesting. I hope you sent copies to Larry Reuter and Virgil Conway (you would probably get a faster answer)
That sounds like a "Ms. Anderson" to me, Dave!
Wayne
Dave, While I appreciate your legwork on this subject, and years ago actually went to 370 Jay to get such a permit after being threatened with a summons the evening 57/6th opened, Justin is I believe constitutionally correct. Last I looked this was a public entity and as long as the picture taking does not inherently disrupt patrons or employees, our collective and individual right to document our collective property is paramount.
Yeah right and they better not touch me or take my property because i don't trust people like that. That why im very Mean and i do what ever i want. Im going to write some letter to MTA and explain to them that we have the right to take any pictures of Subway cars and buses. My father told me he didn't like the rule and think this is unfair to any one but this is a hobby. IF they don't like it than we should fight again MTA.
Remember this is not Russia, we are American and we do what ever we want
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a.Mean DJ)
PS if you don't like this than don't bother to post me again.
> Remember this is not Russia, we are American and we do what ever we want
You really believe that?
-Dave
The way things are going, we're headed in that direction. Common sense has already been legislated out of existence. Next thing you know, Congress will pass a law making it illegal to criticize an elected official, and anyone busted will be locked up in a psychiatric ward.
It's something that is worth believing in, and even fighting for now and then. David Vartanoff's idea about "collective property" sounds like one approach, although simply being a public place ought to be enough. Perhaps they amount to the same thing.
The thought of the transit system as our collective property is interesting. We do pay taxes for it (surcharges on phone bills, for example) so it could be interpreted as belonging to the taxpayers. Any of our railfan attorneys want to offer their comments?
--Mark
You'll have to forgive me if I have not followed the whole post through it's thread but if I may move the subject a little..... I think taking pictures of trains is a great thing. I'm as big a fan as the next guy. One thing that does irk me though is the photographers who take a picture of the train just as the motormans cab passes by. A few times this happened to me when I was a motorman and the flash can be quite distracting if you're not expecting it. If it were up to me, you could take as many pictures as possible, just be mindful of that flash.
And it is incredibly RUDE to flash a motorman that way. Either we should take the rear of the train or spring for faster film/lenses. Our 'right' to document stops at disrupting your work.
Well, as it says on my permit, and the section of the rules and regs that have been posted, flash is absolutely out, unless you're a credentialed member of the press.
-Hank
The next SubTalk Field trip should be one to Jay (scratch that) Livingstion Street to get permits for all!! Once we get the permits we should take pictures of the new building!!
I had a rather odd reaction upon first hearing about the extent of the tornado damage in Oklahoma. As widespread as the destruction may be, thanks to Oklahoma's strong economy and Sunbelt "can-do" spirit the devastated areas probably will be rebuilt before long. But what if a disaster of similar magnitude had happened in New York? If the Manhattan Bridge lunacy is any example, it would take many years if not decades before the destroyed areas began to look even remotely normal. Not a pleasant thought.
Oklahoma "can do" using federal money. So can many other places. I wonder if the rest of the country would consent to help NYC in the event of a disaster, or would it just send in business recruiters to try to destroy our economic base by moving it out1?
New York can and does rebuild things exactly the way they are. Doing so doesn't represent "change" to the people who believe the city is doomed because so many people who are not like them live here. And it doesn't require an EIS, and MIS, an MOU, and acts of state legislatures, city councils, etc. So you would get the Manhattan Bridge rebuilt as the same thing, and it would immediately stop cracking again.
Replacing it with tunnels or moving the tracks to the center? Furgetaboutit. If Ed Koch had balls and NYC's political culture was future-oriented, they would have done that in 1982.
[re use of federal $$$ to rebuild Oklahoma damage]
It's a pity that NYC can't use federal disaster assistance to replace the Manhattan Bridge. If you consider only the economic losses, a complete shutdown of subway service across the bridge - which I suspect is a matter of "when," not "if" - would have a far worse impact than the Oklahoma tornados. Of course, these losses would play out over time, no dramatic photo ops. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't be severe.
Correct, Larry.
With the city being as vast and 24-hour oriented as it is, it would be next to impossible to tear down and then erect an entirely new structure w/o massive and perhaps economical damage to many businesses & residents of the city.
That's why Ed Koch -- or anyone else -- dare not even suggest such a scheme. New York City is a rebuilder's town -- not an "add-on" or "build-up" town like you might find in the Mid-West or even an east coast relative like Boston.
(Rebuild) Doesn't help with an obsolete design. You have to upgrade. Compare the private-sector with the government. See all those post-1960 office buildings? We have about the same number of office employees now as then, but the average square footage per office employee has gone from 150 square feet to 325. We have about the same number of people in our housing units as in 1940, but 40 percent more rooms. Would any of you cyber-subway fans be happy with replacing existing copper telephone cables with new ones which work exactly the same?
True, the subways are air-conditioned, but otherwise they haven't kept up. And unless you rebuild things exactly the same way, you get stuck in the same mess as before -- EIS, MIS, lawsuits, the whole chebang.
Can anyone tell me why the MTA is doing an Environmental Impact Statement for an extention of the N train to LaGuardia? How on earth could that be bad for the environment? What a CROCK.
The only thing I could think of would be noise pollution, but that really doesn't have any impact on the environment per se.
If they run new equipment on an elevated structure with a concrete roadbed and sound-dampening material embedded in it, like the DC Metro does, you will hardly hear a thing. I was at West Hyattsville station last year and a Green Line train came in; I had my back turned and it came in so quietly I didn't know it was there until I turned around and saw it. Dampening noise on an elevated structure is definitely do-able. It won't be silent, but it can be tolerable.
Wayne
I got the same impression when the R-32s first appeared on the AA. They would pull into 42nd St. so quietly you'd have to be facing the track to know they were there. Or maybe it was because they didn't come rumbling and lumbering in the way the R-1/9s did.
Of course, that's a subway, not an elevated structure. Big difference.
How is this idea:
Build a new half bridge with 4 lanes to one side of the tracks-take your pick as to which side-I go for the now closed tracks for the N train. When it is done(along with 2 new tracks teardown the bridge between the new N tracks and the 6av tracks. Build 2 more new trackas and the rest of the bridge--4 more lanes.(of course there will be a provision for a future upper or lower level). Many cities have replaced bridges that could not be closed using this system. Of course the tracks would be in the center of the new bridge!
Sounds good to me. Perhaps Ed Koch should have consulted you rather than those other engineers when he decide to rebuilt the bridge as it was. But you'd still have the whole approval process. And the trains would still have to make those grades.
Of course the new tracks could have an easier grade! the 6av tracks would remain until the new tracks were completed (The first two of the new tracks where the current N tracks are. The other two trackas would be the roadway.
To our engineer friends: would this be possible-if not why would it be no-go. Other cities can doi it why not NYC
[(re phased bridge replacement) Other cities can do it why not NYC]
You can ask the same question about countless other things, starting with the Second Avenue line (look at all the new lines built in other cities since the 1970s). Or look at how other cities actually manage to build schools in less than a decade. Or, on a much smaller scale, how other transit systems have managed to eliminate "scratchitti" (even PATH's done so).
I can't give you facts and figures, but I can tell you that very few suspension bridges carry rail traffic (freight or passenger). It just is not ideal for rail traffic, I think for several reasons.
It seems like changing the grade of the bridge would be very difficult.
This is why you see so much here that advocates replacing the bridge with a new subway crossing...
The Benjamin Franklin Bridge across the Delaware carries PATCO trains on the extreme outside of the bridge. I think the speed limit for the trains is 35mph. Does it suffer the same torsion (twisting) problem that the Manhattan Bridge does?
--Mark
The Philly people could probably answer this best but the PATCO tracks on the Ben Frank seem to be must more securely fastened to the bridge than the subway tracks on the MannyB. PATCO service is balanced with the same number of trains in each direction thereby balancing out the twist in the bridge. Until Chrystie Street openned in 1967 almost all service ran accross the north side of the bridge producing a definite twist. After Chrystie Street the split was about 2/3's service on the north side and 1/3 on the south side.
I don't believe that the BenFrank suffered the years of the neglect that the MannyB did. I could be wrong on that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually the Patco has a speed limit of about 43 miles an hour on the bridge so I have been told by a PATCO operater. The Ben Franklin was well built.
You are correct about the location of PATCO tracks and their structural support. On the Manhattan, the tracks are closer to the center of the structure, thus the support cables will be subject to more torsion. On the Ben, the trackways are on the outer edges of the bridge outside of the main cable line, thus there is less torsion. The trains run equally on either side normally, unlike Manhattan.
The main cables on Ben are about to be rehabbed for the first time in the bridge's 73 year history (the bridge will also be completely stripped of its paint, also for the first time - repaintings up until now have merely been placed atop previous coats). The south side cable is being worked on at present.
PATCO trains top out at about 35 on the trip across the bridge, which makes the bridge run one of the slower spots on the line. The operator indication is (I believe) yellow over green on the console, which is a 35 limit. This is not as much a structural consideration as it is related to grades - the trains work on the upgrade, but mainly coast and brake on the down side (each about a 4-5% grade). The bridge is also one of the only places on the line which retains jointed rail segments, and this contributes to the slower speed limits. I've heard operators say they can hit 40 on the down side before the computer brings them down lower. You will notice that the trains are often passed by traffic on the bridge, which usually has a 45 mph limit.
I'm not an engineer, but I do believe that I understand the reasons it can't be done.
1. A suspension bridge can't be built in parallel sections, unless each section is independently suspended (this would preclude removal of one-half of the old bridge).
2. The only way to contruct a new half-bridge that would clear the East River sufficiently would be as a half-suspension or half-cantilever - in other words, as a structurally complete bridge in its own right, but with preparations to share its piers or towers with another such bridge after the old structure is removed.
The half-bridges you see today are generally relatively low-stress highway bridges on closely spaced pilings.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK-revised plan: how about a new bridge outside of the NR tracks-not suspension bridge and another new bridge outside of the 6av tracks. also not a suspension bridge, make both bridges with two decks of four lanes each-oh yes, each new bridge will have two subway tracks between the left 2 lanes and the right 2 lanes).
The Manhattan bridge could then be left for cars only and all tracks removed and replaced by roadway-under this plan the upper roadway could be cars only.
Would this work from an engneering standpoint I understand that the NIMBYs are already gathering when they read this message :-)
Building a new bridge to take the traffic while the others were repaired, and then ending up with one more bridge than before, is what federal DOT recommended -- and Ed Koch turned down. Someone should demand an explanation. He should be held accountable for his mistake, the biggest of his 12 years in office.
I think you can have one -- either a rebuilt Manhattan bridge or a new structure, but not both.
The problem with a new bridge, especially on the Manhattan side, would be the construction of an access ROW where buildings currently stand, and probably connecting overpasses to the FDR drive, similar to the ones built to the Brooklyn Bridge in the late 60s.
Putting a new bridge in-between the Manhattan and Brooklyn bridges would bring the ramps right into the Chatam Square area, which would create a major NIMBY problem. bringing it in to the east of the Manhttan bridge would probably require it to connect up with Allen Street near Canal -- slightly less disrputive, but bound to draw protests.
A bi-level tunnel, with cars on the upper level and the subway lines (a possibloy even an LIRR connection from Brooklyn to lower Mahattan) beneath the car lanes, which would run to Brooklyn from near the foot of Allen/Pike streets would be less invasive of the surrounding neighborhood, though it would still produce a fine crop of NIBMYs at the public hearings.
Larry and J Lee's comments cover the subject pretty well. As I mentioned before, a low-level multi-pier bridge wouldn't be practical for the area, leaving few alternatives to suspension or cantilever, and roadway access becomes a major problem even there. Whatever approach is ultimately taken, buildings will be taken down, neighborhoods altered, and the NIMBYs will do their best to prolong the process. A new subway tunnel will stir up the least NIMBY opposition and is therefore probably the best alternative.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But what if a disaster of similar magnitude had happened in New York?
The South Bronx is only now recovering from its lowest point of the late 70s and 80s. I didn't see any government agencies rushing in to help out. (Oh, but that wasn't a "natural" disaster ....)
--Mark
It is important to remember that most of the damage sustained in Oklahoma is insured -- in many cases right down to the level of lost business profits. In the event of a destructive event, policyholders can take the money and rebuild (as most will likely do in Oklahoma) or take the money and run (as most did in the South Bronx during the 70's).
The city could insure the Manhattan Bridge against damage from tornadoes, but no insurer in their right mind would insure the city for damage from neglect.
[The city could insure the Manhattan Bridge against damage from tornadoes, but no insurer in their right mind would insure the city for damage from neglect.]
On the other hand, if a city or county lets people build houses on a high-risk flood plain, Uncle Sam is perfectly willing to sell them flood insurance, usually at a decent price. I don't see a huge difference between that situation and the Manhattan Bridge debacle. Except that there's no federal $$$ that can be used for replacing the bridge.
You won't find me defending the National Flood Insurance Program. It should have been killed long ago. But, as Mom always said, two wrongs don't make a right. Negligence should not be rewarded. Over the years, the city has had the money to replace and repair the Manhattan Bridge many times over but has chosen to waste money on bureaucracies in health care, government, education etc. (I'm sure Larry Littlefield can run off the numbers far better than I can).
People rowing around in canoes and boats seem to be sympathetic characters -- even if they row around year after year (See Wayne, NJ for a local example). For whatever the reason, people who continually re-elect irresponsible politicians who squander money into pet causes don't get that same sypathetic treatment. Go figure.
What's this about Wayne, NJ? I'm asking only because I used to live in the next town over, Pompton Plains.
It's just about an annual rite of spring -- heavy rains combined with warm temperatures melt snow up river and the Passaic River overflows into the part of Wayne south of Rte. 46. Residents float around in rowboats, local news media come out and interview residents, and then everyone makes claims for flood damage from the National Flood Insurance Program.
That's interesting. I don't recall any persistent flooding problems in that area when we lived there. When we commuted to New York on Saturdays, our bus used to go right by that area. That's where Willowbrook Mall is. Then again, when we first moved to Jersey in 1967, the water table was quite low due to the drought which had persisted in the early and mid-60s. Our house had a well with an electric pump, and our garage door had a "Well water used" sticker on it. Around Memorial Day in 1968, a monsoon hit, causing widespread flooding. The Pompton River overflowed and washed out a bridge at Jackson Ave. By the time we left for Connecticut in 1973, the water table had risen to the point where we would get water in our crawl space if it rained heavily for any extended length of time.
Just remember as MY mother used to say:
"Two wrongs don't make a right, but two Wrights make an airplane!"
"If you cant't make two ends meet, make one vegetable!"
O. K....
And now for a subway joke or two:
What do the R-10s have in common with tennis players?
They both raise one helluva racket.
What's the difference between an R-16 and a Nerf ball?
The Nerf ball would bounce right back if a BMT standard were to hit it.
I think it's time to make like a banana and split.
Maybe I nitpicking....BUT - you cannot blame the Feds for the Manhattan Bridge disaster. Even in oklahoma, the locals/state had to ASK the feds for $$$ for relief. In the case of the Manhattan Bridge, Larry's right. The local leadership has been spineless, and/or spent their lobbying power going after other things besides transportation capital.
This doesn't change the fact that NY and all the other NE states send a lot more money to DC than they get back. I think this is largely rooted in the fact that their are two seats in the Senate for every state, regardless of size...
About the only way you would have the same type of concern nationally about the Manhattan Bridge as there is with the Oklahoma tornadoes or other natural disaster is, unfortunately, for a spectacular mishap to occur on the bridge, with the corresponding loss of life as there was in Oklahoma.
I don't think anyone wants to see an R-68 plunge into the East River in order to get some federal funds for repairs, but in the age of 24-hour news channels and pack jounalism like nobody's business, it would take a major structure failure, or a boat hitting the bridge similiar to what heppend at Tampa Bay a decade ago, to pry open the federal coffers for repair or replacement work.
(Don't blame the FEDs). Actually, the federal government urged the city to replace the bridge. But it didn't provide any extra money. Basically, NY State gets a share of the federal transportation pot (five percent, although we pay 8 percent of federal taxes). Using federal money for one thing means taking it away from something else. The only exception is "demonstration projects" like the big dig and the new interstate to nowhere.
The FEDs wanted the city to build a new bridge, then tear the old ones down (Manhattan and Willie B -- except for the towers I guess) and replace them. The city would end up with an extra bridge. But Koch didn't want to go through the trouble of siting the extra bridge.
Then there are the white welfare issues. You could build new tunnels with tolls, but the politically connected want free bridges. They get city parking permits to park on the street in Manhattan for nothing. If the East River Bridges had tolls, they would be replaced. But because of the illusion that they are already there and are thus "free", they remain.
Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is this new interstate to nowhere? When we lived in Jersey, it was I-287 when it ended in Montville. Thankfully, it's finished now.
Maybe the Interstate to nowhere is I-99 in Pennsylvania
its really a shame. the reason why NYC gets nothing from the Feds is simply because we are NYC. Big Cities like NYC carry a stigma of being moral black holes where poor people and criminals dwell, sex shops abound and dirty politicians feed off tax money. NYC should be viewed as a cultural oasis because it is. Our bridges may be crumbling but we still make due with out help from the rest of the country or state for that matter. We have the best damn subway system in the world and what makes it even sweeter is that we did it without significant help from the feds or the state(all they do is rob us of our tax money). Until the Nation's Politcal ethos changes things will stay the same.
BTW: i think that if the Manhattan Brige should fall into the East river, we'll find a way to pull through (the B&D can run from CI up the brighton line through the rutgers street tunnel and the N,Q(new west end line) and R can use the montague street tunnel. How 'bout that!
"Watch out -- extreme congestion ahead!!"
(B&D could run through the Rutgers) There is no connection between the two. The MTA proposed building one as an emergency measure, but no one paid attention.
All kidding aside, if the Manhattan Bridge were to be shut down to all subway traffic, let alone collapse, subway service in Brooklyn would be severely crippled. One scenario: no Brighton express service, with the D cut back to 34th St. or Grand St., and the Q making all local stops while running via tunnel. The B would be reduced to a West End shuttle. With any luck, the N might still run express along 4th Ave.
Not a pretty picture.
(If the bridge closes) Not enough room. If the Q goes through the tunnel, the N and the B both become shuttles to Pacific. R, Q and M go through -- 25 trains, compared with 50 now, and all with that extra 10 minute crawl to Midtown.
Suppose the M were to be permanently cut back to Chambers St. when it wasn't running as a shuttle?
(Service without the Manhattan Bridge). You're still stuck with 25 trains per hour going through the tunnel, no matter how you slice it. Which would they be, and where would they turn around? Who knows.
Current peak service through DeKalb is R9, N9, D9, Q9, B7, M6. That's 49 trains. Now cut it in half. Any suggestions?
The bridge goes, and we're dead meat.
That's it right there, in a nutshell. Period.
This is the ultimate challenge for you rail buffs. Give me the line, signal and lever number of the signal with the most number of aspects. For example:
Home Signal
Two Block Grade Time (S aspect)
Single Block Grade Time (lunar white aspect)
Station Time (illuminated speed)
D aspect
Third Yellow
All this must on one signal. This is COOOL. Give me the answer.
Sounds like some thing around DeKalb, or Pacific St on the BMT. Does this have to be specific? Like survey #?
Shame you couldn't include Pennsy/LIRR Position Lights.
Sounds like something near E180th St on the 2, 5 lines
I can't think of the exact signal #, but how about the J line in the vicinity of Chauncey St., middle track?
I'm going to take a stab at this one. It's been a while since i've been up at the east but.....it's either
A-16LCD Tk Y-1 s/b from Morris Park leading into the East 180 interlocking on the #5 or...
B-16LCF Tk 2 s/b from Bronx Park East leading into the East 180 interlocking on the #2(or the #5 supers from White Plains).
The only other signal I could come up with is on 3 track at the north end of 238th Street n/b on the White Plains line, but it's been ages since i've been that far north.
This is a very thought provoking question. How about some more.
What does "BMT,IRT"....ext. Stand for on the New York subway system?
Check out the Subway FAQ -- this question is described in there.
-Dave
Hi All,
The photos from the Willy B. trip came back and are mostly pretty good. I have put a selection of them up in a new Field Trips section that will hopefully grow over time. Please, check them out at:
SubTalk FieldTrips
Also, if you did go on the Willy B trip and you're in the group photo, please point yourself out to me-- sorry to say I don't recall all the names and faces. You can just email me then I'll update the page. Thanks!
-Dave
Those were great pictures. Hopefully I'll come to the next trip.
To Dave Pirmann
The picture is great but i wish i was there with you guys and enjoy the last ride at Willy Bridge. Any way i hope to meet you guys next time maybe in Bus festival on May 23. Who know
Peace Out
Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
P.S. I think that person is playing game with Railfans but we have the right to take pictures.
Great photos! Perhaps I'll join you on another field trip or maybe Peg and I can organize one down the road a bit. I'm debating whether or not I should formally apply for a photo permit...I have to think about this one carefully - new regulations (or reactivated ones) hint at enforcement.
Wayne
G-r-e-a-t photos, thanks for posting them ... almost makes me feel like I made the trip.
Mr t__:^)
I'm third from the left. (and it's Andersen, not Anderson :-)
In the NY Post Thursday May 6, page 32, is an article about the TA set to clean up with adopt-a-staion plan.
Numerous businesses would put up cash - along with their name - as part of the Adopt-A-Subway program to help clean up subway stations.
After the good folks of SubTalk reads the article, your most excellent thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
It's about time. Chances are the big companies will only be willing to adopt central business district stations, and stations in affluent Manhattan neighborhoods. But, heck, that means more regular money left to clean stations in the rest of the city. Like the WEPs, the PR value of adopt a station is a wasted resource. Let's use it!
Perhaps some of the guys might be willing to put in bathrooms.
Adopt-a-station may be a new idea, but similar programs have been used for highways for years. It might be interesting to see how well these highway programs have worked (although highway cleanliness isn't easy to quantify).
The highway programs are a little bit less severe than what would be required by NYCT. Families, groups or other organizations adopt one- to two-mile stretches of highway and go out and clean up debris two to four times a year in most states.
I know some stations seem like they're cleaned on that schedule, but the private firms will probably have to pay the salaries of full-time cleaners under this program.
Whether that means they pay their own, or subsidize NYCT's janitorial staff probably depends on what's in the union contract.
(How implemented). My understanding is that in NYC those adopting a highway don't clean it, they just pay for it. I assume the T.A.s program would work the same way.
One potential problem is that if a private company is paying for a station to be cleaned, they would insist on it being cleaned, and that raises union/management issues. The union workers would have to do their job, and the money could not be diverted to management salaries.
It was in the paper recently that a rich donor made a huge donation for scholarships to his alma mater, but found out that the school had raised prices and was giving less in scholarships than before! He was outraged, and is demanding the money back.
Having participated in an 'adopt-a-highway' with my brother's Fraternity, there is no money involved. DOT will provide a road safety crew, garbage bags, rakes, shovels, whatever, and the group cleans the highway.
-Hank
[Having participated in an 'adopt-a-highway' with my brother's Fraternity, there is no money involved. DOT will provide a road safety crew, garbage bags, rakes, shovels, whatever, and the group cleans the highway.]
I don't see why that approach wouldn't work with subway stations. As long as the sponsor's cleaners don't enter tunnels or descend to track level, safety issues should be less of a problem than with highway cleaning.
Now the unions, that's another thing entirely.
actually you are wrong. in new york city, sponsers pay the city for a mile of roadway which is then spenton paying a contractor to do the cleaning. you are correct that in many other places, including some parts of nyc, individuals or clubs, etc. do the actual cleaning.
Believe it or not, some stations are already adopted such as Church Avenue on the D/Q( Erasmus Hall H.S.)- there is a small plaque near the Station Service Booth (New name for Token Booth) at the Church Ave entrance.
Many stretches of highway have been "adopted", sometimes by people you would never expect. For example, Bette Middler has "adopted" part of the Bronx River Parkway. Why, I don't know. More commonly, highway stretches are adopted by local businesses and by institutions such as hospitals. If subway stations get adopted at the same rate as highway miles, the program should be pretty successful.
Bad idea -- I can't stand too much commercialism, and the MTA is essentially passing the buck in saying that they can't keep the stations clean. I acually think most stations are in pretty good shape and don't need much more effort in cleaning them.
Not true. The TA needs to make due on limited funds. If they can get corporations involved in the upkeep of some stations, especially those that serve a mass number of passengers or their corporate offices, the better THEY look to the public, and the better the TA is to spend their limited funds in other areas. There's some good to commercialism.
-Hank
YEah---I agree. I don't want to see more unnecessary ads in a subway station. Especially if all the ads are by the same company because they're goin to adopt it. If Chase adopts a station---people are gonna think that there's a damn bank in the subway. No good---Can it.
OK, no ads in the subway, lets see, that'll about double the previous operating deficit. Why is it that so many people are reality-impaired in this city? Mass Transit is essentially a public benefit, and one that cannot be done without in this city, just like the Fire and Police departments. You maximize revenue by doing things such as selling advertising and allowing film crews to use the facilities for a price. You don't say 'there should be no advertisements, because they're unneccesary' They're very neccesary.
-Hank
It's interesting to note that a long-time family friend, the late Oliver Leeds, was the sole individual responsible for the TA's 'Adopt-A-Station' plan.
Leeds was a subway rider who lived on the J Line. During the late 70s the graffiti and general appearance of the Lorimer St. station so annoyed him that he took it upon himself to scrub and wash the station walls on his weekends (and whenever possible).
Obviously, once the MTA found out he was doing this he was treated like a criminal -- trespassing or some such thing being thrown at him (although he of course never when outside the normal confines of the platform). true, they reasoned that if he injured himself on their property they'd be held libel.
He knew some people in print media and got written up a few times -- I recall Jim Dwyer in particular as one who covered Oliver's trials and tribulations with MTA management on a regular basis. Due to the coverage, the transit bigshots got around to seeing that SOMETHING had to be done to curb the disgusting state of many of the stations throughout the system. Since money was tight -- and not wanting copycat acts of Leeds -- they came up with the 'Adopt-A-Station' program. Contrary to what has been mentioned, this program is not new and had been implemented either in the late 70s or early 80s.
Anyhow, if I can dig up any of the articles from Dwyer's old columns (from the defunct New York Newsday) in relation to the above, I will certainly post them here.
Doug aka BMTman
(Oliver Leeds cleaned up a station on his own). An amazing story. It so often happens that when someone tries to do something good, the bureaucracy gets in the way. And why? Because no one in the bottom ten levels of it is allowed to make a decision. In a sane world, you could go to the lowest level manager responsible for a station and ask permission, and he'd give you an indemnity form to sign and some supplies.
It's also amazing that many of the people who work every day, then do volunteer work on their own time, are against workfare. Who are these worthless people with absolutely nothing to contribute? Haven't met one yet. Mass transit needs all the resources it can get -- whether from corporations seeking publicity, voluneteers, WEPs, even Al Gore (though I wouldn't count on him).
How about the subtalkees adopting a station of our own! Each of us would a specialty that we can take of. Subway Buff would clean the token booth, Rosenthal would keep all signals clean and Hank could clean the tracks and third rail!
Hey, why do I get to clean the tracks and third rail? I wanna shine the turnstiles!
-Hank :)
And I'll be out there with my tile, nippers, cement (LatiCrete, of course-NYCT Approved) and grout patching up holes and gaps in friezes.
Next stop - Montrose Avenue.
Wayne :o)
Down in North Carolina, which I still call home even though I'm stuck in New Jersey right now, Adopt-A-Highway is supplemented by another group of highway cleaners that really does a better job - the chain gang. It's probably too politically incorrect for New York, but I think it would work very well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Say "chain gang" and the liberals cringe. Seems rational to me. Down in Maryland non-profits can get prison gangs to clean up property - like certain rail orgs that get busload of guys in orange jumpsuits to clean up trash, junk and the stuff that people hate to touch. The guards (that's non-pc for Correctional Officers) are nice people, too. They all seem to have neat ideas for dealing with the crop of miscreants currently clogging up the system.
I am amused by some people's response to "driverless" trains. (See the discussion under East New York reconstruction.) How many of you refuse to ride elevators?
No offense meant, just something to ponder.
Bill
I will Refuse to ride on Automatic Train Control if they put on IRT. Because it is too danger for New York City and too many Cruves.
I think a point made earlier was excellent -- how PATCO requires train operators to use manual control for part of the ride. This will ensure the operator is on the ball and alert, while removing the problem of having their concentration flag, something that could happen to any of us. Because of the human error factor, I believe we would be safer with automatic train control.
As for OPTO, we would all be spending 50 percent of our income for food if farmers were not allowed to use tractors. Because of tractors and other productivity enhancers, farming has gone from 50 percent of the workforce to five percent -- but we all get cheaper food. The auto industry has cut the number of people needed to build a car in half since 1980. There are fewer auto workers, but they are well paid, and we get cheaper cars. TWU members benefit from productivity elsewhere.
As long as no layoffs are involved (just attrition), I don't see a moral basis for objecting to higher productivity. The result is some combination of higher wages, lower prices, and better quality, and the jobs are always made up somewhere else in the economy.
Me Either. But the contetion that the IRT is unsafe for OPTO because of curves (and I'll assume he means station platforms, not the railroad) is easily solved. Two conductors on the curved platform, who can signal the operator, just as they do now at Fulton St (4/5) and Grand Central. It still saves money, since now instead of 10 trains with 2 crewmembers, you've got 10 trains with one crewman, and 2 people permanently staffing a station.
-Hank
OPTO is unsafe from many points but it falls on deaf ears. How many people will have to be injured simply to save money? does anyone believe opto is going to significantly lower the cost of your ride? the other costs to operate and maintain will eat away at anysavings made from crew reduction. More technical staffing will require high cost to maintain high tech equipment. with the growth of subway ridership will it be safe to have one person operating the train and doors from one position on the train? higher dwell time in stations will reduce the number of trains in operation....were would these platform conductors be located(what stations) would they be doing conductor duties on platform including sweeping platforms too...oops I forgot WEP would be doing that, instead of hiring these people at a decent wage and benefits and getting off of gov't support they'd be cleaning for dirt cheap and still keep the meager monthly stipend and health benefits cost of the tax payer, hmm sounds smart why don't we hire foriegn/migrant workers next?
A. Pardi: thanks for airing some things that I just couldn't get around to putting into words. Very good points.
Doug aka BMTman
thank you! I was just shooting from the hip.
Mr. Pardi, you sound like me! Welcome to the club of rational thinkers.
thank you!!
The club of rational thinkers is rather large. It now includes upstate dairy farmers who have rigged up a government regulatory system (the Northeast Dairy Compact) to force New York City residents to pay more than other people for milk. Self interest, or perceived self interest, tends to concentrate the mind, which has a remarkable ability to figure out reasons that what is good for you is good for everyone else too. You should hear some the arguments the Dairy Farmers made -- we should be grateful for that extra 40 cents a gallon. I expect "rational" oil prices sometime soon to preserve the profits of independent oil producers in the Southwest.
Those who have never been on a dairy farm should be aware of a family farmer's daily work schedule. 4:00 am wake up - 5:00 am, begin morning milking - 7:30 am, finish milking,clean barn(3 tons of cow waste) - 11am, barn is clean and manure spread, time for lunch. 12noon, run errands,repair equipment etc- 5:30 pm, supper- 6pm. evening milking 8:30pm GOOD NIGHT!furthermore all able bodied members of the farm family share in as many of these chores as possible BTW most of that price increase went into the deep,deep pockets of fat cat processors because right wing politicians ,spouting Ayn Rand Atlas Shrugged trash,made sure the law was written that way Oh, well maybe someday we will have a matrix of taxes and regulations that will ensure that that the hard working little guy gets his fair share while allowing the investor to realize an equitable return on his investment BUT NO MORE THAN THAT.
Aha -- smoked out a dairy farmer! I actually do here the dairy point of view, because my in-laws retired to dairy country in Delaware County, NY. I once asked a farmer (at the county fair) why the government should be involved in deciding on the price of dairy products at all. His reason is that because milk is perishable, the farmer is not in a position to negotiate with the processors. In that case, why don't the farmers found a coop (a la Ocean Spray), buy equipment, process their own milk, and cut Delwood off at the knees. NO ONE likes the processors, and people would pay more for a gallon that says "direct from farmers with no middleman."
I know the dairy industry is shriking, but that is despite a maze of government regulations. Having the government solve your problems doesn't help anyone in the long run. And no one shed a tear when the number of NYC residents employed in banking fell from 120,000 to 60,000, with clerical workers taking the brunt.
Good idea, really. BTW, I work in industry, not dairying but i've known a few farmers and they EARN everything they have
This is off topic (you don't have E-mail address) - milk is down a dollar plus a gallon where I live (LI)- from 3.99 to 2.57 as of the first of April. Gas is another story - the b@#$%&*s are gouging again. Someone's getting rich at our expense.
As for OPTO - all this conversation back and forth - It will not work in NYC as envisioned. The system is too old and would cost too much to retrofit. Maybe on shuttles and confined lines like the "G" and "L" and "M" but not on long-haul, high-volume lines like the "A", "D",
"E", "F", #2, #4, #6, #7, etc.
Wayne
I feel like a parrot. Find me examples of persons being injured that are directly related to OPTO operations ANYWHERE. It's much cheaper to maintain electronics than pay salaries, unfortunately. The US workforce is going to shrink in the coming decade, because, face it, technology can replace humans all too easily. No one cried for the elevator operators, none cried for the bankers, or the stock brokers, or the gas pump guys (everywhere but Jersey), or the health care professionals, or the Pullman Porters, or the typewriter manufacturers....
-Hank
(No one cried for) The bank examiners. There are now multiple agencies with bank examiners (silly, eh)? If the House, Senate and White House agree on a banking reform bill, there will be only one, and depending on who that is, my wife may be out of a job. But does that mean all the overstaffing is a good idea? No.
The workforce will not shrink as a result of technology. The result is always job growth elsewhere. Always in all of history.
No, the workforce will not shrink as a result of technology.
But the question is, will technology be used to benefit everyone, or will it be used as a weapon to force the majority of us into sweatshop-level wages and working conditions and increase profits for those at the top?
If I really believed that they would use money saved, if any, to have ex-conductors serve as TO's for additional service, perhaps it would make sense. But I think everyone knows that when they cut municipal services in one way, the savings are not used to improve them in some other way; most likely the savings, if any, would be poured into some financing shell game and end up god knows where, but certainly not in something that benefits the public.
I once read something about the replacement of old grocery stores with supermarkets-
(Far before my time) it used to be that grocery store clerks would help you with your selections, retrieve them from the shelves, most places you could leave your shopping list, come back, and they would have your bags made up for you, etc.
Supermarkets came along, cut service, & promised more selection and lower prices. The old-style grocery stores died out. As soon as they did the prices crept upwards in the supermarkets.
Some economists went and studied the percentage of food expenses that went to retail distributors before and after this change, and it was exactly the same.
Moral of the story: be suspicious when someone promises a pot of gold by cutting service!!!
Hasn't that been the trend in all of society? Service is no longer an issue. Nowadays it's cost, then quality, then availability. Service is least on peoples minds. It's just the way our civilization has evolved. Like auto mats and drivein theaters.
(Price first, then availability, then quality). Yes that is the way things have gone, but there is a reason. Beginning in the depression, many prices were controlled, so the only way to compete was on service. But many people couldn't afford things.
Take airfares. The government controlled prices and they were high. When I was in college ('79-'83), it cost $600 ($1,500 in today's money) to fly home to Tulsa, where my parents lived at the time. We were short of cash, so instead I took a bus to Syracuse, a train (1:02 a.m.) to Chicago, another train to St Louis or Kansas City, a cab to the bus station, hung around the bus station from 1:00 to 3:00 a.m., then a bus to Tulsa. Took me nearly two days each way for a Christmas Visit. Then one year, airline deregulation happened. I flew home for $180, round trip! I'll be going to my 20 high school reunion soon -- cost $360.
Now lots of people resent the decline in service -- and exclusivity. An airplane ride used to be a special thing only special people did. That flight in Tulsa was my first. There was racial exclusion too -- most Blacks and Latinos could only afford the bus. So you hear a lot of gripes from the elite. They also sneer at all those non-college-educated whites, Blacks and Latinos shopping in Price Clubs. Can't we keep them out, so the city can have "character" and everyone can shop in botiques and gourment shops?
Pleeeeeze!
[Now lots of people resent the decline in service -- and exclusivity. An airplane ride used to be a special thing only special people did. That flight in Tulsa was my first. There was racial exclusion too -- most Blacks and Latinos could only afford the bus. So you hear a lot of gripes from the elite. They also sneer at all those non-college-educated whites, Blacks and Latinos shopping in Price Clubs. Can't we keep them out, so the city can have "character" and everyone can shop in botiques and gourment shops?]
While all this sneering and griping may seem like a city thing (can you say Upper West Side?), it exists in the suburbs too. Witness all the opposition to new superstores such as Wal-Marts or Targets. Opponents usually claim they want to protect small town and neighborhood shopping areas. Yet many of these areas already have been in decline for years, and in any event there's no particular reason to believe that the superstore opponents ever were regular patrons in the first place. Or the opponents claim that Wal-Marts and Targets will generate too much traffic - as they zoom around everywhere in their new SUVs. Can you spell "hypocracy"? I'll take the cynical approach and assume that opposition to superstores would be a lot less if they didn't attract such a diverse group of shoppers. In other words, if minorities and poor people didn't patronize Wal-Marts and Targets, much of the suburban opposition would dissipate.
Yep. That reasoning is similar to the ol' Staten Island Secession talk back during the Dinkins' Administration. Funny how once he left, all that talk disappeared. It was totally racially motivated.
On a lighter note:
Yes, I can spell "hypocrisy", thank you very much! (big grin)
(Supermarkets did not lower the price of food) And neither did tractors? These are made up facts. Look in the Historical Statistics of the United States and the Statistical Abstract of the United States for real numbers. (Yes I read these books for fun, but I'm also a railfan). At the turn of the century, the average American spent 50 percent of their income on food, and farmers accounted for 50 percent of the workforce. Today, thanks to productivity in farming, processing, and distribution, it is down to less than 10 percent, and just slightly more for the poorest.
Everyone wants to be "protected" from change, which making independent decisions for themselves which make their own life better but can be disruptive for others.
Should we ban the internet to preserve the record companies' cut of the artists profits, and the magazine publishing and bookselling industry? Consider that the cost of books and records, and of mailing magazines, and the risk of printing so many without certainty they will be sold, is such that only the popular artists and topics see the light of day. Could Dave afford to offer this much information the old way. Would we want to pay enough to allow him to break even the old way, let alone earn a profit? If you are against OPTO for job reasons (as opposed to other reasons), why not get off line and pay someone big bucks to print this site out and mail it to you, thereby preserving jobs?
Like other innovations, the internet will/has make life much better for everyone, but THERE WILL BE LOSERS! Now, if you want to talk about compensating the losers, I'm all ears. I certainly would be opposed to OPTO if anyone would be laid off. But, it you want to stop change, GO LIVE WITH THE AMISH! Choose for yourself, not for others.
Unfortunately, OPTO also deals with public safety factors -- so, your comparisions in regards to "stopping change" for the sake of saving jobs vs. money becomes moot if that angle is not addressed.
One of the more difficult aspects of this debate (productivity, job protections, etcetera) is that the costs of competition are tangible, immediate, and borne by discrete groups of people (say, train operators), whereas the benefits tend to be intangible, longer term, a spread over the wider community. The highest cost of having a regulated workforce is not what _does_ happen, but what _doesn't_: creation of new jobs. It's a high-tech company that operates in New Jersey or LA rather than New York or Berlin. The trouble is that in the short term the benefits of deregulation won't appear immediately and won't help the losers. Let's say you're a marginally skilled city functionary who's laid off because of tax cuts. You probably won't be the first hired by a new business formed when the tax cuts take effect.
All of these economic regulations have the effect of protecting insiders (rent-controlled tenants, city workers) at the cost of outsiders (new immigrants, the unemployed). In the long run, everyone probably will end up better off - after a couple of job changes, the city worker will end up with better skills and a good job. But it's very uncomfortable in the meantime. Traditional liberals responded by trying to soak the rich, but the rich were never very soakable and have only become less so. Moreover, the measurable productivity declines that result from higher marginal taxes mean that the very acting of soaking results in less revenue! (Lots of folks scoffed at this "supply-side" argument at first, but the hard reality is that it keeps showing up in very real ways. See, for example, the track records of Sweden and Ireland.) So you're stuck.
Fundamentally, it's not up to government to make outcomes equal, or even more equal. Government can (and should) help people through transition periods with unemployment insurance, retraining assistance, child care facilities and better schools. But keeping people on the payroll for more than their labor is worth costs everyone much more than the benefit to the recipients. Yes, this means more inequality -- but inequality doesn't matter if even the poorest have a decent standard of living. That's more likely with competition than without.
I agree with you wholeheartedly! These are things that I have been saying for years. Taxes and producing goods and services. Look at the whole Metro card thing. TA had to be dragged in kicking and screaming. Those fools thought they would go broke. Now look!
Whether 500,000 people ride or 1,000,000, the trains run. The costs on monday are the same as on thursday. But if over the long run more people ride, and buy their fares in advance. Then more money is raised. The effects of which have been widely publicized.
OPTO, can and will work. But as I have said, here and now the way it's being implemented, it's just plain stupid. Out in the Rockaways, OK. But in the summer on weekends? I don't think it's as safe as the TA would have you believe!
I didn't mean to take the Luddite track there; of course gains in productivity should be good for society as a whole and should be encouraged.
The point I was trying to make is that too often we are being asked to sacrifice (safety, speed, and yes, jobs in this case) in the name of productivity, but then the gains are not returned to the consumers of goods & services or the public at large.
We could have an incredibly productive society where most people work 7 days a week for $1 an hour, but would that be a good thing?
In economics what you get is not what you give but what you have the power to demand. What leverage do transit riders have over the MTA? If OPTO is used to make the subway system cheaper, more reliable, with lower headways, then yes, the conductors will go the way of the typesetters, etc. But I doubt that the benefits, if realized, would be returned to the public.
I'm not saying that technological change shouldn't happen; that's silly. But we should look carefully at what it's used for.
"De-skilling" is probably inevitable and can result in greater efficiency and lower prices, but in the long run what does it do to the quality of life? Will the end result be a huge low-wage service sector serving the few who have access to the new high-tech jobs?
Globalist laissez faire Ayn rand discipiles like yourself are leading this country down the sewer and more and more people are recognizing that free market anarchy is the driving force behind the decline of the standard of living for the middle class(Household Income< $100,000/yr). When the stock market bubble bursts I only can hope that another great leader like FDR comes along to pick up the wreckage of failed free market pipe dreams and don't blame it on Smoot-Hawley, if that law had been enacted 2 years earlier, it's badly needed tariffs and regulations may have lessend the effect of the crash. but with our luck we'll end up with nut case Buchanan. Fact is the prosperity that America experienced after WWII was a result of regulated capitalism and an artifical form of protectionism
(Most of the world's productive capacity lay in ruins, a terrible human tragedy that I hope is never repeated) but the lesson is clear, the anti protectionist pablum that the corporate media is pushing is untrue, just like their gun control garbage, it's all about disempowering the ordinary citizen. Regulated commerce is an idea whose time has come again, just don't turn it into a welfare state like JFK and LBJ did
Why do you think having the government make decisions, rather than individuals, leads to more faireness? The 1950s were fine if you were a white male in a good union in a big corporation. Those people's standard of living has gone down. Everyone else's has gone up.
I am particularly confused by the point of view of many Blacks and Latinos. Their leaders yell "institutional racism" while at the same time supporting policies which give more power to institutions. Will they get a fair shake? NO WAY!
Sad to say, but like any other career politicians, most so-called black "leaders" are only looking out for numero uno (how to further their own ambitions) rather than the ideals of their constituents.
Jesse "Keep Hope alive" Jackson is a good example of a black "leader" who leeches off both his "people" and the American mass media. He's such a career politician that his phoniness pandering and kiss-a--iness (particularly to Wild Bill) ARE WAY too obvious.
Well, I know this is off topic (guilty yet again) but thought I'd add my two cents worth.
Doug aka BMTman
[When the stock market bubble bursts I only can hope that another great leader like FDR comes along to pick up the wreckage. . .}
Mr Blair,
Do you wish to exchange the economy of the past seven years for the economies of the great socialist governments in Europe and the Far East?
I don't think so!
As for regulated commerce, you tell your neighbors they can't get the goods they want to buy and the price they are willing to pay because we don't want to trade anymore.
Jim K.
Chicago
Don't you realize that this bubble economy is just looking for an excuse to pop. I pray for Mr. Greenspan's continued health because if he were to have say, a stroke, the sell programs would drive the dow down 4,000 points within a matter of a couple days and hit the overall economy so hard that the "echo" would drive the markes down a couple thousand more. BTW, most historians would agree, FDR was probably the greatest president of the 20th Century. If say, Willkie was elected in 1940, America probably never would have entered WWII with disastrous consequences for all of humanity. As it was, Right wing opposition to the war, caused WWII to last much longer than it would have had to with millions more deaths. Let me see, FDR saved the nation from depression and the world from fascism, he deserves a lot more respect than "Im not a crook" nixon and "celluloid cowboy" reagan Furthermore, calling everyone who disagrees with you a socialist or communist is a hallmark of the kind of Ken Starr Mc Carthyism that will elect Al Gore in 2000. Unfortunately Mr. Gore's no FDR either
[Furthermore, calling everyone who disagrees with you a socialist or communist is a hallmark of the kind of Ken Starr Mc Carthyism that will elect Al Gore in 2000.]
Mr. Blair, Sir, I refuse to go any further with political discussion with you. You have and are entitled to your beliefs and I have mine. As far as I'm concerned, we must agree to disagree.
If you think that FDR's New Deal applies to our economy today, then we will disagree. We can look at this in another way. To end the depression Mr. Roosevelt needed a war. My question would be: "How many Americans died to get the US out of the depression?"
As for the economy, that bubble should have burst long ago. I guess we both will have to sit and wait to see how it turns out. On the plus side is that we are again getting involved in a military action.
One thing that I will agree with you on is that this country owes a great deal to Mr. Greenspan. Without his guidance, we wouldn't be having the great economy we are enjoying today.
Jim K.
Chicago
FDR didn't start WWII, Hitler did -- FDR finished it, THANK GOD
Look I'm probably as far "left" as anyone on the board, as such things were understood a long time ago. But the fact is that in government money flow to power not to need. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a Rip Van Winkle liberal (ie. asleep for the past 30 years and hasn't noticed what has happened) or out for a special deal themselves. Someone else will pay for that deal. And they won't be richer than you are.
Yes there are all kinds of abuses in the private economy. I have no illusions about that either. Right now companies are using bookkeeping tricks to disguise falling profits (we are beating them in the marketplace more than they are beating us at the workplace), and it is a bubble and may burst. My best guess is the Dow is worth about 7,500, not 11,000. But no one is forcing us to buy stuff, or buy stock, to puff up the stock options of an overpaid CEO. We have choice. When the federal and state governments starts making choices, the first victim is NYC and the poorest people who live here.
As an historian by training and avocation, albeit not by profession at this point, I feel I must add my two cents' worth.
In my opinion, and in the opinion of many, many historians, the United States got out of the depression in spite of FDR, not because of him. It was that belated realization on the part of the American public that fueled the move to limit the Presidential term in office. Would Wilkie have done an effective job preparing our nation for entry into WWII? I don't know. FDR didn't exactly do a great job, in my opinion, but I agree that Wilkie's beliefs were not too far distant from those of Neville Chamberlain (sp?) and accordingly would not likely have done any better. FDR's biggest failing in the conduct of the war, in my opinion, was his unwillingness to save the Jewish (and other) populations of Europe that were murdered by the Nazi machine simply because of their religion or ethnic heritage. The United States turned away shiploads of refugees, sending them back to their deaths, and was also careful NOT to bomb the railroad tracks leading to Auschwitz and the other death camps, or the gas chambers there. FDR, as President and Commander-in-Chief, could have granted the refugees asylum, and could have ordered the bombing of the rail lines and the gas chambers, but he didn't do so.
The greatest President of the 20th century? I don't think so. Theodore Roosevelt and Harry Truman are the top contenders for that award; Harding, Clinton, Kennedy, and FDR are solidly in the running for the worst.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Theodore Roosevelt??
Yes, I know this information about FDR & the holocaust, and it's a shame, a black mark.
But then to put Teddy Roosevelt up for best president, who was himself responsible for a massive genocide in the Philippines while supposedly liberating the Filipinos from the Spanish, but in fact crushing the homegrown Filipino independence movement? Not to mention the de-facto colonization of Cuba & Puerto Rico?
I think everyone knows by now that the New Deal did not end the depression. But I cannot think of any other government action that has done better by regular people for longer than the New Deal social programs that survive.
Sorry for the off-topic post :(
I'll be good I promise.
The Spanish-American War occurred on McKinley's watch, not TR's, and while the economic changes in Cuba and Puerto Rico gathered steam during TR's presidency, I suspect that they would have occurred regardless of who was in office.
As to the social programs: you mean the ones like Social Security, which (including Medicare) costs me about 9% of each paycheck, plus an additional 7+% of that amount that my employer must contribute instead of being able to invest and/or pay me, yet which I will never benefit from when I retire because it will be bankrupt? Or are you referring to welfare, which, while it was intended to be a temporary help so that the genuinely needy could get back on their feet, has become a way of life for four and five (closely-spaced) generations of leeches who have no intention of working (and some of whom would rather sleep in the subway - see, Dave, we're still on topic :-) - so they can use the money for drugs and booze rather than rent)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[As to the social programs: you mean the ones like Social Security, which (including Medicare) costs me about 9% of each paycheck, plus an additional 7+% of that amount that my employer must contribute instead of being able to invest and/or pay me, yet which I will never benefit from when I retire because it will be bankrupt?]
Social Security's impending bankruptcy can be blamed on the pharmaceutical industry. If it weren't for two drugs, there'd be no worries whatsoever about the system's solvency.
What's likely to happen in the relatively near future is that a huge number of people will hit retirement age and start collecting benefits, while for the past 30 years or so there haven't been enough children born to keep the ranks of working-age people from declining. Too many Old Farts and not enough Porch Monkeys, you might say.
Well, if it hadn't been for the development of penicillin, more people would have gone to their reward at younger ages, keeping down the number of retirees collecting benefits. And if it hadn't been for the birth control pill, there'd be a lot more young people!
Of course, it's gotten to the point where penicillin hardly kills anything anymore. Those bacteria have turned into, shall we say, BMT standards in terms of indestructibility.
[Of course, it's gotten to the point where penicillin hardly kills anything anymore. Those bacteria have turned into, shall we say, BMT standards in terms of indestructibility.]
Or you might say that penicillin has turned into the R-44 of pharmaceuticals :-)
I'd go one step further and say penicillin has become the R-16 or R-68 of pharmaceuticals.
I'm sensitive to that stuff, anyway.
To get back on off-topic, if FDR had used more of the depression era spending to build the second system, rather than having guys push brooms, we'd be better off today. FDR started the tradition of redistributing the money of his home state elsewhere in the country -- through roads, interstates, electrification, etc. The cities paid for all that, and sent them on a downward course. As the cities became occupied by blacks and latinos, they have been repaid with bile for their economic suicide. It still goes on today.
FDR should have NUKED GM for the National City Lines EVIL PLOT
Larry, are you blaming blacks and Lations (aka Hispanics) for the decline of the citys? The real blame has to be put on the city government since it greatly reduced services in neighborhoods that BECAME predominently minority -- white flight left voids in police, sanitation, education, etc. -- and of course it was quite obvious that Blacks and Lations were/are/tend to be more at the bottom of the economic ladder than other groups. True, with the influx of heroin and other destructive drugs, the Black and Latino communities had a rise in criminal activity that peaked in the mid 80s. But it must also be pointed out that it is those same communities that have -- in the last several years -- turned around their communities from places of desolation into working, thriving neighborhoods. It is unfair to make Blacks/minorities exclusively the culprits in this matter.
Doug aka BMTman
Blacks and Hispanics are not the problem, it the people they elect, and the fact that eveyone else seeks to suck this city dry and its so called representatives go along with it. Have you read the news this week? It's worse and worse. First, the city decides that it has so little money that it will just have to not provide its children with computers, schools that aren't deteriorated, etc. They the rest of the state decides it has so much that it cancels the commuter tax.
They can't screw Blacks and Hispanics, so the screw the places they live. I live there too, and it makes me mad!
Yes indeed, Doug. TO WIT: The Bronx neighborhood on either side of the #2/#5 line. I couldn't find any abandoned housing stock there, just one or two somewhat dilapidated commercial buildings, around Freeman Street station and a vacant lot near Intervale. Other than that, the neighborhood is in great shape compared to what was in, say, 1979. It's a 180-degree turnaround.
Wayne
[And if it hadn't been for the birth control pill, there'd be a lot more young people!]
Are you advocating more un-parented brats should be running around?
Jim K.
Chicaog
Hey, Jim we do agree on something.
I know this is off-topic, but while we're on the subject...
My folks, like most other DPs (displaced persons) were disappointed with FDR. They were hoping the Allies would keep right on going and liberate eastern Europe instead of stopping at the Elbe River the way they did. With the Soviets closing in on Lithuania in 1944, they fled. Thanks to Truman's Displaced Persons Act, they came to the U. S. in 1949 after spending the interim period in a refugee camp in Kempten. In fact, it was on April 28 that they stepped off their boat in Brooklyn. Their sponsors lived in Linden, NJ.
The Soviets weren't blameless, either. They deported scores and scores of innocent people to Siberia, including many of my father's relatives and even his parents.
Well, enough is enough.
We definetly agree that FDR should have agressively targeted the infrastructure of the Holocaust. That is his greatest failure. Also, Britain paid a terrible price for PM Chamberlain's anti semitism
I think that there are those in Washington who would welcome a Dow drop of 4,000 points. The Gores and Clintons have been selling this country short for years. The pay-off may be just around the corner..
Are you the Damian from the #6 line?
No, I'm Damian from Flushing who is now, unfortunately, living in the transit-cursed city of SF, and wishes he were riding the #7 and not $&%!@ might-as-well-take-the-bus LRV's.
Transit-cursed SF? That's one of the few cities that kept
the wire up, the only city (in the US) that kept the cable
moving, and Market St. has been a PCC renaissance! Of course
BART is a little cheezy, but....
Is this Damian formerly of Park Drive in Flushing?
Ok, ok, from the railfan perspective SF is great.
But from the practical commuter perspective, there are just too many trains and buses that don't come. I must rely on a bus with a 30 minute headway as part of my commute. Often, there will be no bus for an hour. Eventually I'll just decide to walk it. It's easy to be an hour late to work, & my job is unforgiving on this.
I thought I'd throw in a link to a humorous article on MUNI ATO glitches, among other things:
Examiner Article
So while we're on the topic of MUNI, does anyone have information on the former "B-Geary" streetcar line and the circumstances surrounding its' demise in the 50's?
Oh- no I'm not formerly of Park Dr.
I didn't know there were *that* many Damians out there.
There is one person injured as a direct result of OPTO. The woman who was Raped in the last car where the Conductor Should have been!
Was her dignity, and peice of mind worth it? I'm sure Joe Hoffmann couldn't give a damn. He didn't have to pay a Conductor, that's all.
Since when is the conductor in the last car? I thought they operated 4-2 on the G with R46? In any case, what if she was in the fifth car, or the second, or the third? Same result....
-Hank
on PATCO the train operator must make one trip manually daily to remain proficient in train operation, in the event that auto operation fails.
[I will Refuse to ride on Automatic Train Control if they put on IRT. Because it is too danger for New York City and too many Cruves.]
If Chicagoan's took that attitude NOBODY would be riding the CTA.
As much as I was against it, the CTA "persuaded" the unions to "buy-in" on OPTO on ALL lines. The last lines, the Blue and Red, were converted effective on 9 November 1997.
Ridership has actually gone up since then! Or that is what the CTA is reporting.
Jim K.
Chicago
My aunt, who lives right next to the Red line, says it takes longer to get to the Loop with OPTO because of longer dwell times at stations. The Red and Blue lines still use conductors in the subway portions. I asked her if she had seen any of the remodeled 2600-series cars (with the full-width cabs), and she said she hadn't yet.
I'm not so sure OPTO could be implemented system-wide in New York.
[I asked her if she had seen any of the remodeled 2600-series cars (with the full-width cabs), and she said she hadn't yet.]
There are ten low numbered (random pairs) 2600's back from the builder and operating on the Red Line in mixed consists with other 2600's and 2400's assigned to the Red Line. The re-habs are easy to spot as all the paint has been removed from the sides and the ends.
I saw one Red Line going northbound this more with a pair and a southbound "racing" the Ravenswood I was on. I didn't get the car numbers this morning; however, tonight on my way home from the Omnibus Society of America meeting I saw 2659-2660, which is the highest numbered pair back for GEC-Alsthom. I've ridden on them a couple of times and they seem to be like "brand-new" cars.
- Jim K.
Chicago
Thanks for the update. I think this was mentioned previously, but are there timing signals on the downgrade to the north portal of the State St. subway? My aunt mentioned she was on a train which was traveling downhill fairly fast and got tripped. It sat for a period of time, then crept to the North/Clyborne station. After a longer-than-usual dwell time, the train made an unannounced nonstop express run to, I would imagine, Washington St. Not a big deal except that my aunt had to get off at Chicago Ave. Are unannounced express runs typical in Chicago? You'd figure some sort of announcement would be made to that effect. Now, whether or nor people would listen is another issue.
[After a longer-than-usual dwell time, the train made an unannounced nonstop express run to, I would imagine, Washington St. Not a big deal except that my aunt had to get off at Chicago Ave. Are unannounced express runs typical in Chicago?]
After a long day at work and waiting for a train for longer than usual, the announcement that the next stop will be Belmont is music to my ears. Of course, it is not good for those who want stations between the Mart and Belmont, but there is usually a train right behind to make those stops.
CTA uses the express method, skipping stops to a certain station up or down the line to close up the headway.
The Red Line is "famous or infamous" accordingly, for this. I think it's great because the first stop is usually Belmont, which works for me!
As for the trip downtown. The Cab signal system kicks out at Fullerton. From there to Roosevelt Rd the Red Line is protected by wayside signals and side arm trip mechanisms. The signals approaching "the hole" are timed to keep the trains speed in check; however, I've been on at least one train where the operator didn't get stopped in time. This, of course, caused a penalty stop. CTA operators don't have to get out of the train to reset the brakes as the cars are all-electric and there are no air brakes. He/she resets the brake in the cab.
Jim K.
Chicago
OPTO started @ CTA with the 1-50 series cars with fareboxes when CTA offered the union one man or cutting the service in half on the Evanston local line.
Has any independent source (I am thinking of something like DVARP or a newspaper) studied whether CTA can keep their rush-hour schedules with no conductor?
Also, does this mean the days of paying the conductor on the train in the middle of the night are gone? I used to think the way they rang a bell for every fare collected was cool...
[Also, does this mean the days of paying the conductor on the train in the middle of the night are gone? I used to think the way they rang a bell for every fare collected was cool...]
In theory, all stations are open and a Customer Assistant is on duty at any station that has service. I've been through the Wellington station on the Ravenswood Brown Line later in the evening and noticed nobody in the booth. I don't know what the story was there.
However, with the full implementation of CTA Farecards, the handling of cash by CTA employees ceased in June 1997.
No, there isn't any fare collection handled on the trains.
- Jim K.
Chicago
Me, but because I'm afraid of heights. Unfortuneately for me, it's a neccesary evil in this city.
-Hank
But generally, there is only one lift in any one shaft...
True. But of course the elevator could take off with the cab door open or worse the shaft doors open; it could stop between floors or out of alignment with the floor; it could slam into the roof or plunge to the basement, etc., etc.
And probably all of these things have happened, but we take elevator safety for granted.
Bill
I am not a proponent of ATO. I still remember the mess ATO on R-46s caused. However lets keep things in perspective. When the R-46 ATO failed, it defaulted to the 37-N mode. RTO personnel know rule 37-N as key by the signal & proceed at restricted speed, prepare to stop with-in half your range of vision or words to that effect. In ATO, it meant that the train could go no faster that 5 MPH and would have to limp tot he yard where the ATO could be re-set.
As I've said before, my knowledge of signals is quite limited but I do know that the TA requires that all equipment purchased be resistant to 'single point failures' meaning that 2 systems would need to fail simultaneously for the CBTC to fail. In that case, I'm quite sure that the system would default to the equivalent of 37-N or similar.
Most elevators also move pretty slowly, and have a number of fail-safes to prevent them from falling to the ground. In fact I cannot recall this ever occurring. They are a lot more perfected than a subway system at this point.
Ever been in an elevator shaft? At the bottom is a great big spring. A falling car that misses Mr. Otis' invention hits the spring and bounces up about a floor and a half. It falls again (more slowly) and bounces (less) on the spring. Eventually, it stops. Anyone unlucky to be on it will survive, wihout life-threatening injuries.
I know about the springs in elevator shafts. Anyone care to guess what sort of springs the observatory elevators in the WTC have? Or the Empire State Building?
They use the cushioning effect of the air column at the bottom of the elevator shaft
I don't want to test this theory...
-Hank
well with automatic elevators theres nothing else on the same track as a train does so theres one major difference
The Willy B trip looked GREAT!! Makes me very jealous I couldnt make it...However I do have some suggestions for future NYSR 'unofficial' trips...
1) Newark Subway..Goodbye to the PCCS... This is supposed to be rather soon,right? We could meet at PATH-WTC, ride out to Newark, ride the Newark PCCS to the end and back, back to maybe 33rd on the PATH...
2) how about...(I know this would be expensive....and a LONG day..)) a trip to Philly to ride some of the LR and subway.....Meeting at Penn Sta..doing the NJT-SEPTA bit.....
Any other suggestions??....I work for a school district,so weekdays are hard for another month or so...(I know Todd..you work weekends..hmm) But with enuff planning..(name tags...cameras..etc..) This could turn out to be a real great thing....
While it's looking pretty far ahead, and would require some planning, a terrific fan trip would be the first revenue train through the completed 63rd Street connection.
May 22 thr 1st train is supposed to go through. I expect to be there.
May 22nd only marks the return of 6th Avenue Service (Q, B, S) to the 63rd Street tunnel and discontinuation of the current S Broadway shuttle. I think Peter was referring to the opening of the connection to the Queens IND line which, I believe, is still a few years away.
The PCC trip would be great. A weekday rush hour evening would probably be best (the Newark Subway is bustituted on weekends for construction right now). I wonder if anyone with any NJ Transit connections is here ... maybe could work out something special for us...
-dave
That's one on my short list of things to do. I don't what I could do to help organize (live on LI, don't commute to Manhattan), but would be happy to help in some way. Anyhow, if any interest, count me in !
Mr t__:^)
I agree with NJT Newark Subway before the PCC's are gone!!
Please pardon me if this is a repeat ...
April issue of Railpace has a large article on The Newark City Subway, incl many shots of PCC, map & some box motors (1985 photos). A friend had copy so I'll probally NOT be able to get one for myself :-(
Mr t__:^)
Most of the Trolley Poles have been replaced with Pantagraphs for the conversion of the line and the new cars.
I know this still 5 years away, but I'm thinking of Oct. 27, 2004. Something's bound to be planned for that day (you would think), and I can guarantee that I will be on hand one way or another. It's never too early to mark your calendars.
BTW, Oct. 27, 2004 falls on Wednesday.
I will most likely going on a field trip myself covering the Pelham Line now that there are more redbirds on it. It will most likely be Wednesday June 2nd and would be an all day affair. WHen I'm done there, who knows ....
If anyone is interested, let me know.
--Mark
That should be good with all day Pelham Express service and equal Redbirds coming out of Pelham and E 177 St. When you come out with the tape I'll definitly buy it. My son enjoyed your NO.2-5 Redbird tape I brouth for his birthday.
Wonderful! Thanks for the kind words.
I have an updated list that I sent to Dave for placement on the site. As soon as I know it's updated, so will you.
--Mark
That sounds like fun. When you confirm a date and I confirm my schedule, I'll try to come.
How about the Friday before Memorial Day for the Newark PCC trip. That is only if Mr. Traffic and Weather together can make it down from
Beantown that weekend!!!
Unfortunately I won't be coming to NYC that weekend, Aaron. I will be there the prior weekend (22-23 May), and will try to get to the NYDivision/ERA meeting on Friday evening. I rode the Newark PCC line last summer, and it's a great trip... so make sure you get to do it before the cars are retired!
I don't think we can do a field trip without you!!!
You're very kind to say that, Aaron, but there are many capable people on SubTalk who can organize and lead a field trip. In fact I think it would be good to take turns doing so! I'll commit to organzing another one during one of my July or August weekends.
Are you going to Members Weekend at Seashore this Memorial Day weekend? I went last year at that time, and hung around while the R1/9s were pulled out for a round trip up the line.
--Mark
Not sure if I will get to Seashore over Memorial Day weekend, but I'll let you know! I'll be there tomorrow however :-)
Give my regards to 800, 1440, and 3352.
P. S. Isn't it nice to know you're wanted?
Yeah. Chances are that tomorrow I will just wave to the "heavy stuff," but get a chance to operate our Third Aveneu Railway System (TARS) trolley #631. The restoration that our shop did on it was magnificent, and it's being kept in top-notch operating condition too.
Today's NY Times Websight has an article about Al Gore plugging Public transportation.
Not sure If I know how to paste a link.
http://www.nytimes.com/library/politics/camp/050599gore-sprawl.html
If this doesn't work, can someone please explain how?
Gore is pushing using our tax dollars to build mass transit in the suburbs, because the Democrats, like everyone else, is courting suburban votes. It would be another disaster for NYC. We'd pay, but would not get.
[Today's NY Times Websight has an article about Al Gore plugging Public transportation.]
Well, Prince Albert has finally picked a subject to talk about. And it's not a subject that he will get a large percentage of support on from the American people.
Maybe Larry L. can address the percentage of Americans who actually use public transit. I'd say it's safe to put that number at about 15% of the total population. And those who don't use it don't want their tax dollar going to support it.
This is not my feelings, it is just a fact of life. Here in Illinois, the downstaters what NOTHING to do with funding CTA rehabilation projects. Can you really blame them?
- Jim K.
Chicago
(People outside the city don't want their tax dollars going to transit). And I don't want my tax dollars going to pay for roads in places where there is 100 square feet of pavement per person.
Really, that's just the argument for eliminating all federal and state money for all infrastructure. I'm much in favor of that. It's the only way we'll get our own money back.
[Really, that's just the argument for eliminating all federal and state money for all infrastructure. I'm much in favor of that. It's the only way we'll get our own money back.]
Is it true that New York State gets less from the federal government than it sends there? I think I remember reading that.
I'm also in favor of paying for what you use and not be forced to support people who just plain "don't want to work". I don't mind helping those who can't; however, what I pay in federal, state and local taxes, I feel like I'm supporting a small family.
And Larry, BTW, if federal funds are used to build a highway, I believe tolls should be collected and the money paid back, as a loan. Again, we should pay for what we use!
Jim K.
Chicago
Gore talk tooo much and he not very smart. I will never vote for him for next President.
Al Bore and Mr. Bill - what a pair, huh? I didn't vote for them in '92, nor '96. End of story.
Whether highways are built with Federal funds or private funds, we still end up paying in the form of taxes or tolls. Our newest highway in Denver, E-470, is a toll highway. A new segment which links the other two existing portions just opened this past Monday, two months ahead of schedule and $60 million UNDER BUDGET. You can now go from where E-470 and C-470 meet at I-25, where Douglas County begins, all the way to 120th Ave. for $3.50, and if you want to go to the airport, you can do so directly to Pena Blvd. One segment remains to be built, from 120th Ave. to I-25 at 160th Ave. I live about 2 miles north of C-470, and will be checking out E-470 the next time I have to go to the airport.
The state of CT did that with the CT Turnpike. There were 25 tolls every couple of miles for years, now they're gone. What's interesting is they're spending more money on that road now upgrading it.
Mr t__:^)
I think you meant 25-cent tolls every few miles; there were 10 or 11 barriers, if I recall. My father still remembers to this day the 10-cent barrier at the Connecticut River, with traffic backed up for who-knows-how-long, on a Sunday back in 1967. He felt that was just plain stupid.
I remember when the barriers came down. Governor O'Neill felt that since the bonds had been retired, it was time to eliminate the tolls. Ditto for the Merritt Parkway. I was no longer living in Connecticut then; I read about it in the paper.
In contrast, tolls are still collected on the Pennsylvania and Ohio Turnpikes, the Indiana Toll Road, and Illinois Tollways, even though they're paid for. They provide the only source of income for upkeep of these roads.
And, of course, the New Jersey Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway. I can sort of see the tolls on the Turnpike, but the backups at the Parkway tollbooths are ridiculous. There are a variety of plans now afoot to raise the tolls on both roads; one of the ones for the GSP would eliminate some of the tolls and raise others to $1.00, as well as eliminating a number of the interchanges north of the Raritan River. Personally, I'd rather see higher gas taxes - I don't drive very many miles on the Parkway and almost never use the Turnpike, but the ability to move unimpeded - and the resultant gas and pollution savings - when I do use the Parkway would make it worth it.
On the flip side of the coin, removing the tolls would probably add a few more cars to the Parkway - some coming from local roads and others that wouldn't be on the road otherwise because the people would be on the train or bus.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Spending your gas/tax money on more roads and more lanes and more ramps and more interchanges would also lead to more cars on the road.
Agreed. And I don't want that either (unless it's a dedicated exit for a new park-and-ride).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Gas taxes instead of tolls) assumes that the value of all pavement is equal, no matter when and where you drive. In fact, some places are more crowded than others, and more costly, and therefore worth more (ie. bridges, Manhattan). You can charge different prices with tolls, not with gas taxes.
And forget about raising the gas tax. I just don't see it happening.
You have a point, but the cost of driving - and the quality of living - is also affected by the number of miles travelled, the amount of gas consumed, and the time it takes to get there. The GSP toll barriers increase the time it takes to get there and the amount of gas consumed, with relatively little revenue return to the state. Raise the gas tax by a penny or two (or the appropriate amount that would be enough to offset the loss of net revenue after collection expenses), take down the toll barriers on the GSP, and there will be a lot less air pollution from idling engines, and a lot less frustration on the part of many drivers - at least those who aren't heading into NYC. And, if we need to further encourage transit usage, raise the tolls on the bridges and tunnels coming in from New Jersey. (Dare I suggest that we raise the tolls enough to cover the cost of building another pair of rail tunnels under the Hudson? If the geology permits, run them in far enough north of the Lincoln Tunnel to make a reasonable connection into both GCT and NYP [via the Amtrak connection].)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Raise the tolls into Manhattan, and build more road/rail crossings with the money). Most planners and transportation professionals agree. Most politcos do not. And its too bad, because if everything into Manhattan was tolled, we'd get out of a lot of this environmetal impact insanity. Instead of stopping people from building because some people might drive (which doesn't affect the millions already driving) you could limit the number of vehicles entering by raising the toll.
As for the GSP, you may have a point, but raising the gas tax in NJ won't go down very well -- see the reaction to Whitman's open space proposal. Toll plazas also provide jobs, and these are defended politically.
Okay smart guy, how about this:
If taxes and tolls won't wash due to federal, state and interstate politics, why not use city politics to affect change. There could be a city ordinence banning cars with Odd # Licence plates from an area south of 59th street on Monday, Wednsday, and Friday, and Even # plates on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. You could cross the river but you could only use the West Side Highway and the FDR, and maybe 12th Avenue. Anyone caught in the zone with the wrong plates gets a fine and their car impounded. Maybe commercial plates could be exempt. But anyway, the city could use a local ordinance to hold area motorists hostage until the State and Fed politicians come around to our way of thinking. The Mayor who implements this idea would get 90% of the vote in the next election.
What's more, there already is a "driving tax" on the books in NYC. The city need only impose a stringent and sadisitic crackdown on speeding, parking, standing, blocking the box, two wheels in the crosswalk, honking, running yellow lights and inspection violators. Playing your car radio too loud, that's another one I'd like to see a $500 fine for. No Left Turn, or we take your car!!! This would not only give motorists an incentive to Stay the Hell Out, but it would raise millions in revenue. The city could build its own subway for its own constituants and the State and the Fed could, by and large, go to hell!!!
How about expanding the City's No Parking Zones and doubling the cost of parking meters and raising the parking tax to 20%.
How about installing speed bumps, througout midtown!!! Now that would get a message across.
(Why not use city ordinances to restrict?) You don't understand. Everyone who is politically connected in CITY government gets a free parking space. Don't you see all those reserved parking areas around Lower Manhattan (and in Downtown Brooklyn)? They get to drive to Manhattan for nothing, and don't want to give up the privilege. So it isn't just federal and state politics that are the problem. It's the Mayor and City Council and Comptroller and Public Advocate and commissioners and assistant commissioners etc.
We currently limit cars by limiting parking spaces in new commercial and residential development -- a stupid policy. That makes it harder for CEOs of companies with thousands of taxpaying, transit riding employees to drive in (so they move their businesses to the suburbs where everyone drives), but doesn't affect those who get a permit to park on the street (illegal for the rest of us in the CBD during the workday). Parking permits are given out as perks, and it is non-taxed income. That's one reason I'm so pissed we don't get transit-check.
Can not companies give out Metrocards to their employees as non taxable income? I believe that I brought this up once before.
Step 1.
Istead of a bonus or a raise, give all of your employees an Unlimited Ride Metrocard every month. (this will reduce your payroll and thus your payroll tax)
Step 2.
Claim that the cards belong to the company and are for company use, after all, my employees need to feel they can get somewhere by train if the have to. This way you can write the cost of the cards off as a business expence.
If an employee "also" uses the "company" card to get to and from work, who's going to question it???
Transit minded companies can also milk the system for perks.
(Transit minded companies can milk the system for perks). Unfortunately, the City of New York and its associated unions are not transit oriented. If they were, poor kids would be able to play in their school playgrounds, rather than having them reserved for staff parking.
Once again you are right. I'm just looking for the angles.
I recall a few years back there was a big stink about Congress getting free parking in and around DC. In the end, they voted to uphold their parking spaces and all their other perks but at least there was some embarassment over the whole thing.
There are a couple of other groups beside city-government big shots who benefit from free on-street parking in Manhattan. A couple of weeks ago, I read about a woman physician at Beth Israel Hospital who was whining over the fact that people were illegally parking in the reserved doctors' parking on the nearby streets. Gee, didn't it ever occur to her that just maybe the subway would be a better idea? I suspect everyone more or less takes it for granted that the nature of a physician's job requires convenient parking. Whether that's really true is another matter. The second group to benefit are the members of the press with their special NYP plates (which, incidentially, both Connecticut and New Jersey issue). Again, there's some justification for this, having to do with access to crime scenes and other locations requiring on-the-spot news coverage. But don't try to tell me that there isn't a significant amount of abuse.
Actually, I've never seen a CT press license plate, but I have seen NJ ones...
[Actually, I've never seen a CT press license plate, but I have seen NJ ones...]
I saw a vehicle with Connecticut "NYP" plates parked in a press-only zone near Penn Station a few months ago.
Yes and what about all those film crews getting special permits for all of their trucks.
[Yes and what about all those film crews getting special permits for all of their trucks.]
Not quite the same issue. Commercial vehicles travel into Manhattan because in most cases there's no alternative. On the other hand, city administrators and other big shots with on-street parking permits generally could use mass transit like the rest of us, but instead choose to drive.
The cash-strapped City of Baltimore is installing 4-way stop signs in lieu of traffic lights (just like Philadelphia!) and speed bumps in neighborhoods on main streets. Oh Joy!!
Interestingly enough, Baltimore is held out as an example of a successful city by those who promote sports as an investment, thanks to Camden Yards. Needless to say, stadium opponents now take pains to paint Baltimore as a basketcase. Perhaps there is some exaggeration here.
The Maryland Stadium Authority (State Agency) builds sport "palaces" for rich owners, which is then paid for by lottery (state again).
The city can't really pay for anything new, school improvments are the state again, plus bond issues. Streets don't get paved (my residential street was last repaved in the 1950's!), trash is twice a week, soon to be once, middle class is fleeing to Harford and Carroll counties, and the areas around the city-county line are talking succession. The city-owned City Life Museums were closed and the collections dispersed because the city failed to fiscally support it.
(Baltimore's problems). Oh well, Brooklyn came back, so maybe there is hope for Baltimore and Philly. I know a self-employed guy who grew up in the Philadelphia area, and is upset because housing prices have gone up so much in our part of Brooklyn. I pointed out that areas of Philly which do have, or could have, comparable amenities, are cheap -- really cheap. He seemed to like the idea.
Like we've said before here, an anectdote beats data every time. I've read a couple of articles blaming the Littleton Tradgedy on the physical layout of the suburbs and the resulting alienation of teens. Even from the point of view of an urban fan, let's just say that's a bit of an overstatement, although having lived in the 'burbs for six years of my childhood I did decide that Brooklyn would be a better environment for my kids. The density is high enough so you can hang out with kids from your own street on your own stoop, instead of having to go the parking lot of the 7-11. Who knows? If exaggeration leads to hysteria, people might start fleeing from the suburbs.
[(Baltimore's problems). Oh well, Brooklyn came back, so maybe there is hope for Baltimore and Philly. I know a self-employed guy who grew up in the Philadelphia area, and is upset because housing prices have gone up so much in our part of Brooklyn. I pointed out that areas of Philly which do have, or could have, comparable amenities, are cheap -- really cheap. He seemed to like the idea.]
Granted, I'm not familiar with all of the city, but what I've seen of Baltimore doesn't look too terrible. It sounds to me as if many of the cited problems are attributable to bad government rather than a weak economy (shades of Nassau County!) Baltimore surely doesn't have Brooklyn- or Bronx-style double digit unemployment rates. Having a fundamentally sound economy as does Baltimore makes it easier to get the city back in shape if the political will is found.
(Baltimore doesn't have Brooklyn's unemployment rates).
Actually, I think Baltimore is much worse off, primarily because unlike Brooklyn and the Bronx it doesn't have a dynamic center like Manhattan next to it. I had to compile some data on Baltimore (& Cleveland) to show how new stadiums downtown are good. Let's just say the data was not used. Like these boroughs, there is both high unemployment and lots of people not bothering to look for a job. Unlike these boroughs, employment and population are sliding down.
This gets back to a debate I have in the office all the time: why have people fled the cities for the suburbs. One view is that virtually everyone wants the suburban lifestyle -- detached house, cars, lawns, shopping with lots of parking, less noise and traffic -- and the older cities just can't compete.
My view is that it all comes down to the social and fiscal burden of the poor. You live where the poor are, you must pay higher taxes and accept inferior services due to the fact that they have less to put in and greater needs. And, their social problems are in closer view. Most Americans have turned their backs on the poor and the places they live. I believe that if, as in Paris, the housing projects were built and the poor located in the suburbs, people would want to live in cities instead.
When people talk about the suburbs being "urbanized" they aren't talking about people living in rowhouses and apartment buildings and riding mass transit. They are talking about an increase in the number of poor people, especially Blacks and Hispanics. That could be a hidden factor in Nassaus problems -- as the housing ages and is passed down, they now have a burden they didn't have before and (unlike New Yorkers) are not willing to accept. Heck, I just read about a white, suburban couple from New Jersey who got screwed up and became heroin addicts. Guess where they live now? Guess who is supporting them?
[re economic comparison of Baltimore and NYC's outer boroughs]
By the way, to follow up on a recent thread discussed here, Sea-Land and Maersk lines have decided to stay in NY/NJ rather than build a new "superport" in Baltimore. They apparently decided that New Jersey's incentive package was too good an offer to pass up. While Maryland's offer was far greater in dollar terms, the cost of moving the port operations presumably gave New Jersey's offer an effective edge.
Now the big (and presumably unanswerable) question: were Sea-Land and Maersk really serious about moving, or was this a case of corporate blackmail?
(Was it corporate blackmail?) Even if it wasn't, NJ lost. The real question is, how many new businesses will not grow in NJ because of the higher taxes or diminished services needed to fund the subsidy? You know all those "jobs created" and "jobs retained" figures? The never include the cost! They act as if the cost is zero!
[When people talk about the suburbs being "urbanized" they aren't talking about people living in rowhouses and apartment buildings and riding mass transit. They are talking about an increase in the number of poor people, especially Blacks and Hispanics. That could be a hidden factor in Nassaus problems -- as the housing ages and is passed down, they now have a burden they didn't have before and (unlike New Yorkers) are not willing to accept.]
Dunno. As far as I know, there hasn't been a significant increase in the percentage of poor and/or minority residents in Nassau. Suffolk probably has seen much greater percentage increases in both categories yet remains in reasonably sound financial shape. I'd say that Nassau's woes are mainly attributable to good old-fashioned crooked politicians.
[Heck, I just read about a white, suburban couple from New Jersey who got screwed up and became heroin addicts. Guess where they live now? Guess who is supporting them?]
Pound Ridge? Sands Point? Bernardsville? New Canaan? Muttonville? Alpine? Could you give me a hint :-)
(Where does the New Jersey drug addict now live). NEW YORK CITY! AND ON WELFARE!
[(Where does the New Jersey drug addict now live). NEW YORK CITY! AND ON WELFARE!]
I found that article in the _Slimes_. It was interesting, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the details are a bit fuzzy. Did the couple move to New York because of the availability of welfare? That was never quite addressed. But I did get a minor chuckle out of the incident where the husband was beaten by drug dealers, staggered into the nearest subway station for help, and promptly got busted for sitting on the steps. Looks like the skells will be using the "I just was assaulted" excuse from now on :-)
Speedbumps and 4-way stops are the latest rage in what the buzzword types call "traffic calming". Speedbumps are what everyone wants, but of course, not on their end of the block or in front of their house. Both of these measures are in response to the wild uncontrolled situations which we've permitted to happen on our streets. Everyone is in a hurry and everyone speeds (so the myth goes) so we need to find ways to slow them down short of ticketing, enforcement, etc.
Here in Phila, driving is becoming more and more of a risk. About one-third of drivers don't have insurance (even though state law says different). Many vehicles are unregistered and uninspected. A large number (perhaps 20%) of drivers aren't even licensed. Police do little about this. Traffic regulations are useless since tickets are hard to come by, and how does the illegal operator become affected by tickets? Red-light running is a regular way of life. 4-way stops, which are purported to be better than signals since they're "always red", are a joke.
Of course, the political reaction to this is to install more devices that people will ignore. When our current (ex-NYC) police commissioner began to crack down on illegal drivers and confiscate cars, he was booed as an enemy of the poor, since the poor couldn't afford anything more than cheap cars, and insurance, registration, inspection, even licensing, were luxuries. SEPTA is no good to those without cars since it's so undependable and also expensive (that's what they say).
As one who grew up in a family without a car (and may be a little better for it, since I can easily travel on public transit without any difficulty), I fail to see the absolute need for a car, especially in an urban environment. Yes, it's getting tougher to live without one (and I do own one now), but that's life in the big city. It certainly doesn't qualify in my book as a necessity, especially at the expense of something even more critical to life.
Until some sense comes of things in this regard, look for more lunacy like speed bumps and 4-way stops.
Ah, two highways I remember well. We got caught in a major traffic jam on the GSP once, on May 14, 1967 (Mother's Day, as a matter of fact) while on our way back to Paterson from Trenton. I don't recall what caused the backup.
I also remember when the parallel leg of the turnpike through the Meadowlands was built.
Also, speaking of turnpikes, US 36 between Denver and Boulder was originally built with private funding and was a toll highway. It is still known to this day as the Boulder Turnpike, even though the toll barriers came down just as soon as the bonds were retired in 1967.
[I remember when the barriers came down. Governor O'Neill felt that since the bonds had been retired, it was time to eliminate the tolls. Ditto for the Merritt Parkway. I was no longer living in Connecticut then; I read about it in the paper.]
Safety concerns were what finally prompted Connecticut to eliminate tolls. Several people died at the Stratford tolls on the Turnpike in 1982 or 83, when a sleepy truck driver plowed into a line of cars waiting to pay their tolls. With a year, the tolls were gone from the Turnpie and the Merrit/W.Cross Parkways soon followed. The last tolls in the state were on a couple of Connecticut River bridges near Hartford, which hung on for a couple of years longer.
We were rear-ended at the West Haven barrier on July 30, 1967. Some young lady was driving a VW Beetle and had left her emergency brake on. Her brakes overheated and she couldn't stop.
She got a ticket. The gas gauge on our car never worked properly again after that.
They took the toll booths down several years ago on the Western Kentucky and Blue Ridge Parkways, which run diagonally east-west across the state. But the speed bump ridges to tell drivers to slow down for the booths still remain on the road, which makes driving interesting if you're not paying close attention.
Speed bumps in NYC would just give cab drivers a chance to see if they could get their vehicles airborne.
Not to mention more business for auto repair shops. Good for the economy.
Yes, that's what I meant ... 25 cents every couple of miles ...
BTW, Eye have a number of the tokens they sold ... people will put almost anything in our farebox (want some girly coins). How about a trade for out-of-town dip/swipe cards ?
(If you want to buy/trade please send me a off-site e-mail)
Mr t__:^)
Toll highways are generally financed by selling bonds to private investors. Then THEY are paid back from the toll revenues. This plan works well, except that the "authorities" which are established to run the whole process tend to find some way of preserving their existence (and that of the tolls) after the bonds are paid off. In the case of Connecticut, which did eliminate its tolls, there was no "Authority" - the state DOT ran the toll road itself. Perhaps other states should try that; if the state laws (or state constitutions) don't allow it, amend them.
Paying back money to the federal government is a dubious suggestion; the money comes from the population in the form of taxes to begin with, so making the state repay the federal money from tolls amounts to paying for the road twice. Federal highway aid today generally goes only to toll-free roads.
Do you know Mark Gibson?
-Hank :)
Can You really blame Chicagoans for not wanting to pay for more highways down State? Or to pay for projects to address issues like air pollution? To pay disaster relief the next time some town down the Mississippi gets flooded when the flooding is linked to suburban sprawl up river?
Don't get me wrong, like most Americans I don't think much of Al Gore. But unless people like you and me speak up with our opposing views and try help the other guy see our points of view, there will be no good solutions to either of our problems.
Same old. Same old.
Remember when Clinton was campaigning in 1992 he was going to "rebuild the nation's infrastructure", including high speed trains and transit? He got really bored with that. The transit budget has been flat while the general federal transportation budget has about doubled in current dollars. In constant dollars, transit has steadily fallen.
Take it with a grain of salt. Transit and Amtrak funding is really dependent on who in Congress wants to get what for his/her home district.
NY suffered its biggest blow for transit when D'Amato was defeated, and now we're losing Moynahan. Do you know what a Pyrrhic victory is?
[NY suffered its biggest blow for transit when D'Amato was defeated, and now we're losing Moynahan. Do you know what a Pyrrhic victory is?]
I'd say if transit funding is left up to Chuck Schummer and, dare I say Ms. Rodham, good luck!
At least you know what you had with Senator Pothole. And although I don't believe in his politics, you'll have to search far and wide to get another Daniel Patrick Moynahan. He is a gentlemen and can look at an issue from all sides.
- Jim K.
Chicago
I dare say that if the 1st Lady does become the junior senator from NY while Chuckie ascends to the senior senator position. Mass transit will be in trouble. I fear, based on her past track record she'll be stealing the rails while telling us Mag-Lev subways are coming.
Hey, I understand that it's a game of politics, and I understand that all congress is interested in is bringing something home to the home district. But New York has politicians too, why don't they bring something home??? The answer, I believe, can be found in my long standing theory that Democrats in New York are sheep and the Democratic politicians know this and thus they walk all over their constiuants and their constituants eat it up and ask for more. After all, what are they going to do, vote Republican???
Use the "View Source" command on your browser to see how it is done. Unless you are using AOL, you will find it on the "View" menu.
Basically, you use the command <a href="url"> to begin the link (the actual url (web address) goes between the quotes instead of "url"), then the text you want to appear as the link for the person to click on, then end the link with </a>. The text for the link may or may not be the same as the url itself.
What you posted does not show up as a link, but it can be used by copying it to the "clipboard" and then pasting it into the destination window of a browser.
Hey, all. Check out www.bostonphoenix.com for an interesting article on a new prototype train running on Boston's Green Line. The phoenix is a lifestyle/nightlife magazine, but the article is still pretty good.
I couldn't find the on-line piece (but I'll grab the paper tonight). But if you're talking about the Type-8 trolley, it's not a prototype. The first two production cars, #3802 & #3803 are in passenger operation on a limited basis. There will be 100 in total.
Here's the URL for the MBTA green line article.
The article was buried pretty deep in the magazine.
http://www.bostonphoenix.com/archive/features/99/05/06/URBAN_EYE.html
Where are the yellow globes at the entrances to the subway stations? All over the city you see the Green and Red. Which to my memory green is open and red means exit only. Yellow I thought was you can enter, but you could not buy a token. Now maybe with metrocards you don't need those yellow globes anymore? Anyone know where they are?
No, no, no! Green means open (for entry) at all times; red meens not open for entry at all times - there may be open entry at some times (generally given on a sign at the enterance), or not at all. I don't beleive yellow was ever used in this system, though I'm not sure when the system was put into effect.
I thought I remember seeing them on Northen Blvd. Near the 59st Bridge.
wake up, they got rid of the yellow globes ten years ago
What did a yellow globe mean when they did exist?
Also, is there any difference in meaning between a Green globe and a globe which is green on top and white on the bottom?
>Is there any difference in meaning between a Green globe and a globe which is green on top and white on the
bottom?
no
I guess that is why I have not seen them in a while. :)
The yellow globe meant that the entrance was open, but you needed to have a token on you to get in; there was either no token booth or it wasn't a 24-hour booth.
I think that now (about ten years ago or so), when the booth is closed, the corresponding entrance is also closed (thus replacing the yellow globes with red ones). This was probably done for enhanced security and to cut down on turnstile-jumpers.
But now, I've seen a few unmanned Metrocard-only entrances (modern iron-maiden turnstiles), so those types of entrances may be coming back.
The yellow globes were replaced due to the confusion. Nobody knew what they meant. Not even the MTA.
From the last multi-lingual subway map:
A green globe means the entrance is always open and a red globe means there is some restriction such as open certain hours or MetroCard erquired for entrance during certain times, or exit only. A Red globe has the information near the back of the stairway and needs to be read!
When they first started putting up those colored globes (ca. 1980 ?), green meant open for entry (with a manned booth) at all times (as it does today), yellow meant open with a manned booth during certain hours only, and red meant not open with a manned booth at any time (exit only or "iron maiden" entrance only). But within a month or two, the system was revised. Yellow globes were eliminated and existing ones gradually replaced with red. Red now means simply "not green" i.e. not an entrance with a 24-hour change booth. Did the MTA really think the three-color system was too complicated for average riders?
I think those globes predate the MTA.
-Hank
I spotted ayellow globe on Friday at the south end of Parsons/Archer/Jamaica Ctr. This is a part time personed entrance with 24 hr accessability provided you have a MetroCard.
More train spotting from my boss' office resulted in seeing one set of 68a's on the N line at Queensboro Plaza. Signs were setup with black N on yellow circle. End Signs (except for Head/Tail End) all had B signs.
Still juggeling that equipment??
I've been noticing for some time now some of the End Of Train (EOT) Markers (the Red Lights) on the Slant 40's are out (one or both).
Who checks the lights? I know Train Operators are not Pilots, they don't walk around the train before taking charge. But when is this imprortant saftey device checked??
In the old days I guess Tower Operators could notice them but with more and more towers becomeing metal boxes without windows who knows.
It should be checked by the crew putting the train into service from a layover in the yard. However, if the train stays in continuous for several days, then it's possible no one would see it. During it's periodical inspection, the car inspector will most assuredly find it.
There are two tail lights. So one being out is not that critical. RTO has a rule requiring the car body lights to remain on at night and in tunnels. This is for added visibility by others.
ok, today I saw a V train, it was a V in a blue cirle like the A train. It was a Manhattan bound D R68 at DeKalb Ave at about 8:35-8:40. It was car #2501 and it was the third from the front. Anyone know more about this? On the FAQ page, it says - "V" Second Ave or 63d St
laterz
blackdevl
Sounds like a Motorman, or a Conductor being cute.
As a gag, whenever I work the A, I roll up JFK Express airplane signs between the 4th and 5th cars. It's fun to hang up the old "fallen flag" on the Far Rock run.
Why not? We stop at JFK.
Did the R-44s ever run on the JFK Express? I know the R-46s did.
Nope - The "Train To The Plane" was R46; mostly in the 1200 series (now the 6200 series).
About that "V" sign - that implies 8th Avenue service. I thought the "V" was Orange, as I have seen numerous times before.
Does that roll include the Orange "A" and the Grey "K"?
Wayne
[Nope - The "Train To The Plane" was R46; mostly in the 1200 series (now the 6200 series).]
Actually, R-44s ran on the JFK Express for the last couple of years or so that the service ran, replacing the R-46s.
David
That was the middle of 1990 or so; the former JFK express R46s wound up, in of all places, Staten Island, filling in for our R44s which were being poorly rebuilt by the TA.
-Hank
Probably just a defective end sign. Doesn't 2501 have a link bar and is mated to 2500-01-03-2502? If it is, that car willnever be on the lead again. The sign that counts is the one on the head end of the train.
it wasnt a end sign it was a dest. sign on the side
laterz
blackdevl
You may have only gotten a fleeting look at an upside-down 'A' side destination sign, not a blue 'V'.
Yep. That's where the Yellow Diamond 'M' is coming from. Saw it on an entire train of R40/42 at Lawrence St. on Friday.
-Hank
That's probably an upside-down "W"
Wayne
Don't the front end roller curtains on R-40 and later cars operate horizontally instead of vertically? If that's the case, then the curtains must have been installed upside down.
Yes they do. Our poster was talking about a side sign, which can appear inverted if not set right.
Wayne
Im back in the city now. I notice that the 3 line outside my house do have the full cab covered but not on all trains!! A couple of trains passed by with the railfan window open. I still have a chance.......
In the NY Daily News Friday May 7, page 34, is an article to boost subway and bus service with shorter waits, less crowding around town.
After the good people of SubTalk read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Sounds like a start at least, but if trains can't be added during rush hour the overcrowding problem still
exists. We still need the Second Avenue and other new
lines.
$16M Plan to Boost Subway, Bus
Service
They should use some of the money on the IRT, at least, to keep as many of the Redbirds going as long as possible after the first of the R-142s arrive, instead of retiring them right away.
That way, the number of available cars would be increased, especially for the 4, 5 and 6. As more R-142s and R-142As show up, then they can start retiring the R-26s, R-28s and some of the rustier R-33s/36s.
They do need to build Second Ave., though.
What to do with $16 million?
I won't be greedy, but here goes: Start by restoring some of the museum cars; the Abs, D-types and R9s could then be used on the weekends in the summer to promote the "old time" atmosphere of Coney Island or maybe the Rockaways. Bring back the Nostalgia Special, but this time do some real advertising!
I know this only comes from a railfan, but these historic cars could be restored for so little but the result would be much more positive publicity plus an added tourist attraction. (why not? other cities now promote fake trolley lines such as buses disguised as such, while other cities import antiques from other cities etc. and construct new trackage to run them!) With the rennaisance of the city and the transit system, why not?
Anybody out there second this?
"Gimme dem old time subway cars, there good enough 4 me!"
Mike H
I'm not sure if the old-timers are up to the rigors of revenue service, as beautiful as their current restorations may be (especially the D-types). Another alternative, albeit more expensive, may be to build replicas of some of these classic trains (a welcome one would be A/C'd replicas of the R-10), although I doubt if they'd do this.
Wayne
(Modern replicas of the old trains with AC). If you look at what the auto industry is turning out, anything is possible. The New Beetle and that Chrysler car which looks like the 1930s are examples.
Old Beetle=cute
New Beetle=UGLY!!!!!!
'nuff said.
Hi from Binghamton Univ.
Some of you may recall me suggesting that the TA Museum might get permission to static display or run some of their equip. elsewhere when the Brooklyn store closes for a while.
BUT I don't think surplus from fares should go to what is being said here (running old equip, or repros).
This is a golden opportunity for the City/State/MTA to get folks out of their cars ... so spend it on more new trains, buses & capital projects to add capacity/extend scope of service.
BTW I do like the idea of more fan trips with old equip.
The city could work with the Museum/TA to make some of them part of a tourist thing, e.g. subway series via Lo-Vs ... Manhattan to Rockaways via the type Ds. Why not use some of the old bus fleet for this too. Part of the cost of the trip would go back to maint. of the train/bus ... but don't use the fare surplus for this.
Mr t__:^)
An A/C replica of the R-10s would be nice, with just a little soundproofing thrown in for good measure. I would only hope that such a replica would be as fast as the original, and not another R-68. And, of course, they should run on the A.
P. S. I think that if you were to take a poll among conductors, they would probably want door controls inside the cab. I gather not too many conductors cared for the trigger boxes.
Nope. Again, we're thinking too much like fans, and not enough like daily commuters. If ridership is up 50%, but your service level is the same, people will scream 'we want more service!' While they don't care WHAT it looks like, they DO care that it is clean inside, they can find a seat, it's heated/air-conditioned, and most importantly, will get them from A to B in the fastest and most efficient way possible, without any undue delay. I don't car HOW much work you do on those older cars, you just can't reach this critera with them on a daily basis.
-Hank
As far as the age of the trains go, I know the Redbirds are pushing their limits, but in order to increase the number of fleet cars, I would use the $16 million to keep them in working condition for use in rush hour service until enough additional funds come along to replace the fleet entirely. The R-142s and R-142A's would become the main 24/7 cars, while the older trains could be kept to supplement service during the peak usage hours.
If you don't have enough trains right now to handle crowding, espcially on the Lex, it's silly to scrap the `birds if you can keep them workable for at least part-time duty.
(Keep the 'birds for rush hour). I get the feeling that after the R142s, the TA will have enough cars for the A division, but will be short on the B division.
Hi from Binghamton Univ.
[The plan primarily adds bus and subway trips during off-peak hours
— when, officials say, ridership has grown the most, thanks to new,
unlimited-use transit passes, free bus-to-subway transfers and a
bustling economy.]
[Officials have said adding service is difficult at rush hour, when
some key lines are already at capacity.]
Why aren't they talking about construction ? This doesn't seem to be the right way to go.
Next thing you know they'll have an official policy to discourage folks from riding at rush-hour times because there is any more room for them.
Mr t__:^)
What they should do is fix up the current deficiencies in the system like rennovating Bergen St. lower level to prevent the disaster that happened a short time ago when they had to provide shuttle bus service for people to get to Jay St. to get the train to Manhattan, and later on when they had to run that silly G shuttle train when the G line was broken up into two sections.
Disaster: almost anything can go on fire.
This has been discussed at length here and on nyc.transit. They COULD have kept both servies running, but too many people want the panacea (trying out my new vocab) of a one-seat ride. In an emergency, the lower level of the Bergen St. station can be used by passengers just fine, TYVM.
-Hank
Saw an adv. for fan trip from NYC, May 1st, to The Danbury Railway Museum. Photo shows 2 diesels, x-NYC (steamliner) & x-NH (Switcher).
Anybody know anything about this place ????
(May Trains "99 Guide ..." doesn't list)
Mr t__:^)
They have a web site where you can get more information. Don't have the URL...sorry!
Try this: Danbury Railway Museum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
MetroNorth is running a two stop special to the Museum as well, includes adminssion too.
Ano-3-mouse, Have added a bookmark to that site, thanks !
The Museum is home to some great equipment including an operating RS1 painted up in New Haven Colors, A New York Central E8 painted up in New York Central lighting stripes, a couple of RDCs, several coaches, a couple of FPAs, a crane car, cabooses and quite a bit more.
In addition, the Danbury terminus of CDOT/MNCR is adjacent to the museum. So on any given weekend, there may be idling FL9s waiting for Monday morning rush - and the flash of a camera.
The museum building adjacent to the grounds sits in the fomer Danbury station. (MNCR/CDOT has opted for a new station structure a few hundred feet down the track.) The museum has a ton of books and some videos focused mostly on Northeastern railroads. But information on others railroads and railroading in general is also available.
There are also a few exhibits explaining the history of the railroad and the area in the museum.
The museum also has a number of current MNCR/CDOT working locomotive engineers and other railroad personnel on the board and museum staff. The folks here are very informed and tend to know quite a bit about commuter operations on all branches of MNCR/CDOT.
The museum is also very easy to find.
Choice #1 - take the train from Grand Central to Danbury. That's the easiest way to get to the museum.
If you'd rather drive - the museum is about a mile off of exit #5 on I-84 in Danbury. Turn South on Main street - cross the railroad tracks and go to your second light - following the signs to the train - make a left and the museum is just beyond the second light to the right and across the street from the Dunkin Doughnuts.
Check out the museum web site for hours of operation.
I don't have it in front of me but it should be easy to find through Yahoo or any other search engine.
Dave, Thanks for the detailed reply !
The RS1 & E8 are the ones in the adv photos & they look in great shape. I'll have to get in touch with them so I have their opns schedule.
Mr t__:^)
We've discussed here on SubTalk how it's difficult to read the bulkhead route signs on the R-32s and R38s, especially compared to the pre-overhaul roll signs.
Well, Boston is now taking a parallel step backwards. Our Green Line Type 7 and Boeing LRVs have bulkhead roll signs, with white letters on a black background. They are very readable, and you can tell which route the trolley is on from quite a distance.
The first Type 8s have new electronic displays, similar to the luminators on the R44s and R46s, but the font is smaller. Yesterday, I saw new Breda Type 8 #3802 leading a two-car train with modified Type 7 #3682 as the trailer; the Type 7's modification includes the new electronic sign. It was impossible to read the "D/Riverside" designation from more than 100 feet away. The two main problems are lack of contrast between the black "letters" and yellow background and the font size.
By contrast, the similar Breda cars in San Francisco have roll signs that are very easy to read, and they are controlled automatically by the operator. It's fun to watch them roll back-and-forth at terminals, as they do a "Cat Chow" dance before settling on the selected route.
Color-coded Roll Signs Rule.
Denver's buses have electronic signs whose font is similar to the R-44/46 signs, but the background is dark while the characters themselves are green. They're pretty legible for the most part.
The LRVs have roller curtains featuring white lettering on a black background and are very easy to decipher. Right now, the only time you have to worry about a destination sign is if you're headed towards 30th Ave., in which case you don't want to board a train marked "18th Street". Currently, there is only one line in operation, and an extension is slated to open in July of next year, so colors and letters are not an issue. Our new governor is very pro-light rail, and he wants to have a 19-mile line built along I-25 down to Douglas County. In addition, there is a spur line through the Platte River valley on the drawing boards which would eventually be extended out to the airport. We'll have to wait and see what sort of marking system is implemented. Colors might be the most logical way to go.
Colors are great - so long as you're not colorblind!
Trust me - color coded lines would be a disaster for me.
Todd,
I totally agree. Technology simply for the sake of technology is not always the best way to go. The flip-dot signs installed on the R-32/38 are definite failures. They were placed in a very hostile environment (foward of the HVAC evaporator). They are too small and very labor intessive to maintain. I, for one would like to see the return tot he old, colored route curtain. I wouldn't mind seeing marker lights return either.
That would be very nice to restore the color-coded roll signs to the bulkheads of the R32s (the R38s are Not A Problem - the letter is bigger, there are more dots and they are brighter).
However, since there is now a dropdown ceiling at the car ends of the R32s, which houses the A/C units, there isn't any access to the place where the old roll mechanism once was!
So much for progress...
Wayne
Steve, has there been any talk as to reverting o the old roll sign system. And what about a guesstimate as to the cost of reverting back top a single letter roll sign?
There's been no talk about returning tot he old roll signs. Since the area where the sign is no longer has easy access, the cranking of the sign would need to be done remotely, requiring different technology and equipment. the cost would likely be prohibitive.
Right, because all the roof mounted air conditioning equipment is where the end sign hatch would be. It was MAJOR surgery to change the end sign on the original air conditioned R38's (4140 to 4149).
What about the R-11s? If you look at the one at the museum, there's no way to access the roller curtains that I can see.
If they can't return to bulkhead roller curtains on the R-32s, perhaps larger electronic signs could be installed. Anything would be an improvement.
Now that the WillyB is closed, I'm working on the E. Just a few hours ago, I had a guy who wanted Ave. N and asked me what happened when he saw me get out of the cab at WTC. Obviously, he wanted the F train, but didn't see the bottom line of the end sign. In other words, my E, looked like an F to him.
Bill, I see your point, but a 10-car train of R-32s (assuming you had an R-32) has 20 sets of mylar side signs that are very readable, and the odds are that your Conductor was making announcements and that they were understandable.
David
[Now that the WillyB is closed, I'm working on the E. Just a few hours ago, I had a guy who wanted Ave. N and asked me what happened when he saw me get out of the cab at WTC. Obviously, he wanted the F train, but didn't see the bottom line of the end sign. In other words, my E, looked like an F to him.]
I did show him the side signs which were proper. I have noticed that people do not pay much attention to the side signs. They look at the front sign and that's all that matters. The side signs is just decoration! Case in point: when I worked the M. I always make it a point to check the signs in my car. How many times people didn't get off at Bway Myrtle during shuttle time and wind up at Central Ave. again. Or even ask me as I'm on the Met end ready to leave Bway Myrtle: "Which way is this train going?" Well, DUH, do you want me to run the train backwards! With proper signs and a conductor so loud I can hear him thru my closed cab door! It's human nature that most passengers THINK they know where they are going and the signs & announcements don't apply to them. Same thing with local service cut off on the Jamaica bound Queens IND on midnites & weekends. Announcements are made by the crew & the towermen/dispatchers advising people to stay on to the following express stop and double back, and still the passengers don't get it right, have to be told personally by a crew member, hold the doors, or simply let the train go by for no reason. Yes, some crew members do make lousy announcements, but even for the ones who do, many passengers still can't get it right. Too, many passengers are not too proficient of the English language which causes much of the problems.
this might be true with people who do not understand english well but PLENTY of english as a primary language riders don't get the message either verbally or orally...i guess you're right those side signs make nice decorations!!!
this might be true with people who do not understand english well but PLENTY of english as a primary language riders don't get the message either verbally or right in front of their face on a side sign...i guess you're right those side signs make nice decorations!!!
When I work the E and am running with the "good cars", I make very loud and clear announcements at VanWyck or Fifth Av.
"Ladies and gentlemen. Please be absoulutely certain you are on the correct train. Although we are operating with equipment typically found on the F line, THIS IS AN E TRAIN TO THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ( PARSONS BLVD.) Please be sure you are on the right train. Thank you"
Of course two stops later some Moron will come up to me and say:"Why aren't we at 179"?
either we have incredibly stupid subway riders who can't read or understand annoucements(most are understandable)
ever have a passenger come up to you with headphones on and say they never heard the announcement? I LUV THIS CITY!!!
obviously reading is fundemental or Phonics are not on alot of peoples agenda.
Right on! When they dont understand English I try Spanish and they tell me "I understand English" or "You dont have to write, I can speak". I then repeat my information and they walk away furious about How stupid we are..oh well!
Right now I work 175 on the A four hours Tuesday to Friday and have to change A trains at 168 due to track work. Everyday RTO and myself clear the trains and then some people still go back aboard and are remove(by RTO) for a second or third time! I just tell them "Last Stop=-no passengers, across the platform for the train to 207" I usually witness RTO banging on the seats to rouse some skell-or many skells who then move onto the shuttle which is more skells then passengers. Oh yes, RTO has had to call the police to clear the train (I've witnessed it!) and after the cops leave-yes, you guessed it!
As I have said before-many new Yorkeers are sheep and as a shepherd (I am not one) can tell you= sheep are stupid! If you turn a dog belly up it will roll over. A sheep turned on tis belly will die in that position- they dont know to roll over.
I love this job- a dailty challenge to communicate with my customers.
Mostly, they're morons. But hey, we travel 'pros' make mistakes too. I once changed to the IRT at Atlantic Ave, and ran up the stairs wanting a Lexington train to Manhattan. Lo and behold, I bound up the stairs, and wind up at Franklin Ave.
-Hank
Hank you must have been in a hurry and jumped on the train you see.
That's exactly what I did. I didn't stop to even look at the signs, because I had been there so often, I thought I knew it. But I neglected to orient myself when I got to the platform, and paid for it with an extra 25 minutes.
-Hank
Remember the Mahattan side is on the same side of D and Q trains. Brooklyn side is on the same side as the B,M,N,R trans...... I got used to this from transferring to go to school......
I, for one, would rather buck technology and return to sign curtains instead of these electronic dot things. Maybe you can get more on a sign with the dots, but at least half of the time, the dots don't flip, the lighting is bad, the message is unintelligible, or the operator forgets to flip the sign.
Most of my beef is with buses, as here in Phila our rapid transit lines don't have sophisticated signs. One argument I heard against curtains comes from a bus driver. On the Flxible buses purchased by SEPTA in the early 70's, the driver could adjust the sign either with a button on the bulkhead above the windshield (the standard position) or by another on the dash. The dash button was an option to allow the driver to change a sign in a hurry if need be. Of course, many drivers flipped on the dash switch and got distracted, so the next thing the driver knew, the curtain was fully wrapped around one roller. There were many SEPTA Flx's with no sign showing for just this reason.
Of course, this couldn't happen with the dot sign, now could it (I did see one bus with the bulkhead cover loose, so that the sign couldn't be seen from the outside but could be viewed slightly from the inside of the bus...)?
Yes and the LARGER the type the better, you are correct about the SF MUNI roll signs EXCEPT that the operators(used to the Boeing junk whose signage is generally broken--often either blank white or competing signs on the same car)) are careless about displaying the correct signs. Also the lights for the signs seem to be prone to failure. The touted advantages for the electronics such as many more possible but rarely used destinations do not come close to making up for two signal defects. General illegibility AND the inability to display a large color field. The slants of much fame were the best when new you could tell from the far end of the platform what the train was.
Yes, the original signs on the slant R-40s were huge. Then again, those cars spent the first 8-9 years of their careers on the E and F lines and virtually nowhere else.
Believe it or not, I didn't notice the route sign on the slants when I saw them for the first time. It was at 34th St. and 6th Ave., and an F train pulled in. I was so used to looking above the storm door for the signs that I flat out didn't see the big magenta F until my mother pointed it out to me. DUH! My sister liked those cars so much she wanted to take that very train, even though we were waiting for a D. We took that F train one stop, to 42nd St. I doubt if my sister would remember that today. She has her hands full raising two kids. Call me a proud uncle.
BTW, the original signs on the R-42s were pretty big, too.
> BTW, the original signs on the R-42s were pretty big, too.
These big signs and the blue stripes made the R40M/R42 cars have a distinctive look that is sorely lacking... That plus the lack of pantograph gates on the cars as delivered. Ahh well. Progress. :)
Can someone check how long this transfer is valid? I have been told that it is good for no more than 12 minutes,or so. This would be much too little time to make the connection.
According to the *official bulletin* it is good for 48 minutes
I had a chance to ride the Yellow(Skokie Swift) last Monday afternoon from Dempster to Howard then Purple to Belmont and Red to Addison.
The Oakton shops have been completely rebuilt. I noticed one set of
approximately four 1-50 cars and a pair of the retired 2000 series which apparently have been painted in early 1900's colors, looks ugly. They were much more attractive in the original green/white colors. It
is like a mini-museum section a la Coney Island. At Howard Street, I
changed to the Purple Line express to Belmont. First, I hopped up to
the top of the pedestrian crossover to watch yard moves at Howard. I
still believe this is the best "subway spotting" location in North
America!
At Belmont, I hopped the Red Line back to Wrigley Field for 7:05 Cubs
game.
How fast did that Evanston Express go? Which cars are currently assigned there?
[How fast did that Evanston Express go? Which cars are currently assigned there?]
Question 1 - the Evanston trains top out at CAB55. Anything over that gives the motorman a cab signal warning.
Question 2 - Effective with the 2/20/99 pick the follow cars are assigned to Evanston: 2801-2854, 2857-2880, 2901-2912 & 3457-3458 (the odd couple). This is a total of 92 cars. The peak car requirements are as follows: 66 or eleven trains in the AM and 78 or 13 trains in the PM.
Jim K.
Chicago
[, I hopped up tothe top of the pedestrian crossover to watch yard moves at Howard. I still believe this is the best "subway spotting" location in North America! ]
I agree with you that it is a great place to watch trains; however, we refer to our rapid transit at the 'L'. Thank you.
Jim K.
Chicago
My bad!!! And to think I grew up right in the shadow of the Howard
Street yards.
I have been reading various articles and seeing news reports about the delays Bombardier is having in finishing the 600 or so cars scheduled to replace the Redbirds.
What is the deal? I thought some were supposed to have been in operation by March 1999.
Anyone have info? As well as the Redbirds run and trust me, I am nostalgic too, the A/C systems don't seem to have enough muster for another summer. What lines will get 'em? IRT?
Gimme the shiny new steel trains already!!
Word has it that the first set is expected May 21st, two weeks from today. There was a whole thread on this not too long ago. The set is to be tested on the 2 and 5 lines, but as with all new transit cars, it will be tested without passengers at first. Now will it be five cars (one set) or ten cars (two sets)? I heard ten cars will be delivered to show them off to the press. Is that so?
The contract calls for the first 5-car set to be delivered by May 21st. They could be delivered a day or so early but not much chance of anything significantly before that. One of the members of my motorcycle club is a consultant for Bombardier and he promised to give me some advanced notice... Hopefully, I'll be there to get some pictures.
The R-142s are coming in via the car floats, so SBK will be hauling them over 3rd and 4th Aves and then onto the B line at 36th Street yards.
I hear that the SAME day of the Coney Island Yard tour the 142s are expected to be delivered -- so we may be in for a BIG treat after all! However, I have also heard that delivery could be as late as Monday, May 24. We'll just have to keep our fingers crossed...
Doug aka BMTman
Wait by the car floats at the SBK. You'll really be in for a big suprise...
About when should I wait?
-Hank
I hope someone decides to post "spy" photos of the '142s for those of us living in "economic exile" outside the NYC metropolitan area...
This excerpt from an Associated Press news report today:
Work on the passenger ramps to the N-and-R trains at Times Square begins today - and the 82 (M) million dollar project is to take six months.
During the work, passengers will have trouble transfering to or from the N-and-R lines at 42nd Street. Passengers using the 1,2,3,7 and 9 trains will also have problems transfering to other lines.
Has anyone been through there to better describe what the "trouble" will be?
The ramps leading to the N and R platforms will be closed. Signs said to use the stairways at the extreme north ends of the platforms instead. I don't know what "trouble" they have in mind for the 1/2/3/9, probably just the fact that reaching the stairways to the N/R from there will now require walking a kind of zig-zag pattern.
I went through there today. When you come up from the IRT 41st street exit you come to a sign saying A/C/E/S take the first passagewat while you go straight for the N/R. That passageway is closed. you have to pretend you are going to the Shuttle and then go down the steps near the escalators to the street booth. They are removing asbestos. NYCT ahs plenty of station agents manning the passageways to assist you. They were busily installing more turnstilers at Booth R150 which will be open 24 hours while R151 is closed for renovation work. On the IRT plats, one staireay to the lower level si also closed.
Lets hope this construction really is done in six months...to make things easier on December 31, 1999. -Nick
SURE it'll be done
i've got a bridge to sell too!
SURE it'll be done
i've got a bridge to sell too!
hehehe thats funny, Anthony. But really, I can tell you right now that a LOT MORE than the normal crowd of 500,000 will go to Times Square for New Years Eve this year, myself included (probably). Mass transit is already guaranteed to be a headache, and if certain entrances are closed and we have to use detours, the headache will be aggravated. So, I REALLY hope that this is one project that can be completed successfully, and on time. Besides, what better way to ring-in 2000 then with a nicely renovated station thats right near the center of attention at midnight. -Nick
Will the reconstruction include any rehabilitation of the station itself (i.e., N/R platform, walls, etc.) or just ramp work?
Michael B.
The work will include:
Wall tile, Floor tile, wider stairs down to the 7 from the IRT 1/2/3/9, rebuilt platforms for all Lines (except IND and the 7 for this phase. The 7 will be the next contract and the IND after that.
Also planned is an atrium which will allow natural light into the station and relocated vendor space. The passageways will also be widened.
I had planned on keeping subtalk upated as significant development happens.The ramp to the BMT is an example of transit listening to the rider. Under original plans thwe ramps were to become stairs becauswe of non compliance with the ADA--too steep but now the ramp will be rebuilt to be ADA compliant. When the station is completed and I am including the IND, all platforms will be fully ADA compliant with elevators. I plan on making at least monthly visits to the station complex.
Well, the IND portion is already compliant. I'd assume they'll have ramps from the N/R to the shuttle mezzanine, and elevators from the N/R to the 7, and elvators from the 7 to the 1/2/3/9 (can't see how else they could do it) They'll also need an ADA entrance at Times Square. There's already a ramp from the Shuttle Mezzanine to the IRT mezzanine, and the connection to the IND passage, which would also require work.
-Hank
Has any thought been given to installing moving sidewalks from the Times Square stations over to Eighth Avenue? There seems to be more than enough room to put in a pair of them. All you have to do is to be stuck with luggage going from Grand Central to the Port Authority Bus Terminal to get an EWR bus to develop a deep hatred of the planners who spend money on unnecessary frills before taking care of basic human comforts. Even Newark Airport in the NYC area has moving sidewalks.
Of course a City that will not put bus lanes in the opposite directions on the one-way avenues that are so far apart probably isn't likely to consider such things.
It would be nice to see the sidewalks installed at 33rd Street, too, in the old passageway under what used to be Gimbel's--it's a really long walk from the subways on Sixth Avenue and Broadway over to Penn Station and if Penn is moved another block west, it will be even worse. (Or do TA managers have stock in taxi companies?)
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Will every line have to be `directly connectabile' under ADA? That is, will they have to have a connection to the 7 from both the N/R and the 1/3/4/9 platforms, or will it be OK under federal law to just connect one using elevators and/or ramps, and have people, say, on the BMT have to take a roundabout way via the IRT Seventh Ave. platform to get down to the Flushing Line. It would be inconvenient for some, but it would cut the cost and the construction time, especially if the MTA is trying to solve its own Y2K problem before the crowds arrive New Year's Eve.
The law says only 'reasonable accomodations. As long as it's made accessible, it's just fine, even if it means one must take 4 elevators to change trains.
-Hank
And I think that's just fine. As one who periodically has some difficulty walking (I've spent a fair part of my life on crutches or in a wheelchair, although I'm walking reasonably well, albeit slowly, at the moment) I don't expect everything to be 100% accessible or easy to get to. Everyone has their own "disabilities" (to use the PC term), some obvious, some not so obvious. Physical limitations, perhaps because they are the most obvious, have received the most attention in recent years, but I for one would rather see the money being spent on many of the ADA changes being spent on finding a cure for the cause rather than addressing the symptoms. (Basic considerations, such as 36" wide doorways and curb cuts, don't cost much if anything when done as part of a larger project, but major retrofits are largely a waste of money, as far as I am concerned.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually the work began 2 months ago.
its aq mess. it took about 10 minutes waiting in line to get a token, but once on the platform, no problems.
How can I obtain any pamphlets/brochures about the shutdown, if possible?
Try a station on a line that is near one end-F, J,Z,M etc. They have a drawing of the bridge with J-Z-M breaking it in two.
By the way, the reconstruction work, especially in Brooklyn, is really moving along.
On the DVARP website, there was a piece about obtaining dual mode locos for use on some truncated SEPTA RR lines(namely the R5). The article stated that not only does SEPTA have the most truncated commuter rail network, but is the only one which has bound itself to only overhead power.
These engines were suggested for use on new lines(like the Scuylkill Valley Metro) and on truncated ones(like the R8 to Newtown).
Why did SEPTA limit itself to overhead power and what's the deal with all the truncations of the 1980's?
(I swear Gerry Williams isn't paying me, but his book seems to answer
a TON of Philly questions. :)
I suppose, to sum things up, low ridership from the required switch
at Electric, Conrail running the diesel show (and Septa hating them,
or them hating Septa, can't recall) and all kinds of weird union
regulations on the diesels (mandatory FIREMEN, if memory serves me
correctly) just made Septa not care anymore. Anyone else?
(happy sidebar) the Cape May shore line does run diesels around Cape
May. (you can check their web site) I've definitely got to get down
there this summer for their weekend (fan)trips.
In reference to your plans to go to Cape May, it is my understanding that they will be opening the trackage all the way into Cape May on 12 June - an additional three miles of track, if I remember correctly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why wouls septa switch to diesel? No worth it, given that a) that's a BIG investment in new equipment, b)They can't run them undergrounmd into Suburban, etc, c)The kind of operation Septa runs works better as as electric and d)diesels are slow anyway. Possible system expansions? Maybe, but why not just electrify them? Cost savings? Even negliecting the costs of switching, I'm not sure diesels are any cheaper to keep than electrics.
But if SEPTA were to buy the new dual-mode diesel/catenary Genesis engine that GE says it's prepared to build, then it will be able to run trains directly into Philadelphia from places like Quakertown and Reading where there's no catenary. It would be like the way Metro-North runs diesel-hauled trains from places like Poughkeepsie and Danbury to New York because the engines can also operate off of third rail. The engines they use are also built by GE (the P-32DM Genesis) and there are still some 1950s EMD FL9 engines that have this same capabilty. In fact FL9s were used by the New Haven on its Boston-New York trains all the way, so there was no engine change at New Haven.
True, diesels are slower than electrics. But SEPTA's electric trains are already ridiculously slow. If they installed high-platforms at all or most of their stations they might be able to speed up the service. Certainly, new push-pull coaches would be required for the new services. But if you've seen the Silverliner equipment both inside and out, you'd be more than happy to hear it if SEPTA was going to purchase new commuter cars, which are long overdue. It's only going to get harder to squeeze out more life on the tired old 1960s fleets.
[It's only going to get harder to squeeze out more life on the tired old 1960s fleets.]
Regarding SEPTA's MU fleet. The bulk of the MU's in the fleet are Silverliner IV's. These units were delivered beginning with the single units in 1974 and the paired units followed in 1975-77. The oldest being twenty-five years old.
Imagine, these cars replaced MU's originally purchased by the PRR beginning in 1915 with the electrification of Chestnut Hill and Paoli. The Reading purchased their units beginning in 1931. The Reading MU's lasted until the l980's I think (the Blueliners which were rebuilt in 1964 at the Reading Shops).
So, I think it would be safe to say that SEPTA could expect the Silverliner IV fleet to be around a little while longer.
Jim K.
Chicago
The IV's are currently being upgraded and nice new interiors are being placed in them as part of the work. Since this is occurring at their 25th birthdays, I would imagine that we'll see them around for at least another 20 years. The II's and III's, well, that's another story - many of the III's are getting a facelift on the inside also, but the II's still look dreary.
With service increases planned in conjunction with highway work around the region (R5 - US 202 rebuilding now underway and PA 309 planned to start next year, R3 and R7 - I-95 work to begin next year), even with the new Bombardier coaches, the entire Silver fleet will likely be busy for at least the next 6-8 years.
The only gripe I have with the fleet is the lack of doors. The center doors should be installed on the IV's. Boarding and unloading at the three Center City stops is s-l-o-w because of this (and exacerbated by the thru nature of most lines, which means that crowds will be leaving and entering each train). Schedules now permit 3-4 minutes at each station in the peak. This is one major reason why Regional Rail is so slow.
First, let's address the truncations. On the PRR side, the only one is the cutback of Ivy Ridge service to Cynwyd. This is due to the condition of the Manayunk viaduct.
On the Reading side, the diesel lines went (Norristown to Pottstown, Lansdale to Bethlehem, Fox Chase to Newtown). The first may come back as the Schuylkill Valley Metro. The second is being kicked around as a possible diesel light rail route. The third is a major league political football. All of these lost service since ridership was plunging and of the three, only Newtown has promise as a commuter line given the large amount of development in that area of Bucks County. (Some may argue that the first, in the shadow of congested US 422, has merit, but I'm not so sure, especially since the bulk of commuting in that corridor is headed to the US 202 corridor, the Phila areas's version of the Silicon Valley).
As far as overhead wires, SEPTA inherited the electrified system from the predecessor railroads. Electric operation offers better performance and speed when compared to diesel. Diesel would necessitate expensive ventilation systems in the Center City tunnel.
Would dual-mode work? I think DVARP oversimplifies the issue a little. Is the ridership potential there? I would argue probably not, except for Newtown. SEPTA has studied electrification to Newtown again and again and is met with the opposition of Bryn Athyn and the wealthy Pitcairn family who runs the place. Options have been explored to tie the outer end to R3 with electrics as well as extending R8 and these have gone nowhere. The current service is provided by two bus routes using 25-passenger cutaway-type buses, and these seem sufficient. Do you still think any investment is needed?
I often take SEPTA to task in this group and I usually have good reason to do so. This time I think SEPTA is doing the best that politics will allow and I would prefer that scarce transit dollars not be spent on such loser lines. When the politicos decide that something is finally needed here, let them find the bucks to do it and then SEPTA should act. Dual-mode is only a smokescreen, and in my opinion, a very misinformed one on the part of DVARP. The great expense and infrastructure investment needed for the handful of potential riders just is not worthwhile as I see it.
What big infrastructure investment would be needed? Fueling platforms is all I can think of. That's the beauty of dual mode! Metro North and Amtrak seem to be able to handle them, why shouldn't Septa be taking a look??
That's DVARP's argument - why isn't Septa at least considering these things. The Philadelphia area is growing, like Chicago, Boston, NY, etc. But unlike those areas, Philadelphia regional rail is NOT expanding. A whole lot more people will commute on a train than will ride a bus to a train...
One other cutback on the PRR side: was it on Septa's watch that the R3 got cut back from West Chester, or Media?
You are correct - I always manage to forget the end of West Chester service, which happened under SEPTA's watch in 1986. While R3 technically went to WC, the service near the end (and after the start of Center City Tunnel operation) was mainly shuttle trains to/from Media. This was similar to operation under PRR/PC, which had all but a handful of peak hour trains requiring a change at Media.
I am considering the equipment purchase as an infrastructure item, and this will be substantial. Also, the equipment must be dual-mode to avoid any major investment in the CC Tunnel, which has no ventilation capability. Fueling platforms, etc will be needed, as you note. In the case of Newtown, the line last ran trains in 1983 and rail must be replaced or, in many cases, placed once again (a good deal of rail is gone, especially at some of the busy grade crossings). Stations on the Newtown line will also need work. I believe those on Quakertown and Pottstown could be used as are.
Yes, SEPTA could be looking at this technology, but I question whether it is worthwhile given the ridership projections. Even in the busy Newtown area, where there are still commuters around who used the diesel service when it operated, neither SEPTA nor any other group has shown that the ridership projections are there. As I noted, when 25-passenger buses on wide headways can do the job, as on Newtown, I, as a customer, have to wonder whether the investment would be worthwhile. Even with the construction on I-95 planned over the next 10-12 years, which is the main commuter roadway from the Newtown area to Center City (and, thus, the 'competition'), no one can develop ridership figures that indicate that if you built Newtown, they would come.
The problem I have with DVARP, which I admit is a good organization, is that it (like many other advocacy groups) tends to become blinded by emotion and does not allow objective thought. You can't convince cash-strapped agencies like SEPTA to build lines just because (a) they existed once, (b) they would be nice, (c) they MIGHT work, (d) your group wants more rail, or (e) all of the above. I applaud SEPTA's stance in this regard - for once, SEPTA is getting gutsy and learning that politics shouldn't dictate need when any of the analytical tools available can't show that the investment would be worth it.
Could SEPTA go dual mode here? Sure, with some cost. The summary of my point is that the need must be demonstrated objectively before SEPTA moves to do so. Given the political hot potato with lines like Newtown, with two adjoining counties having two opinions 180 degrees apart, it makes little sense to go too far.
Today I took my first trip on the subway for the summer.
Here's a summary:
L train: started at Livonia. Boarded Slant R40#4401.
This train was pretty quick through the curves between Wilson and Halsey and between Morgn and
Montrose. Nice ride though the 14St tunnel, however as we approched 1Av, the rain seemed to go slow even though
there were grren signals dead ahead. Couldnt see too much through the front window cause of the rain. Somebody
mentioned a straight run from Sutter to Atlantic? The TA
must betearing down a lot of buildings because that whats
in the middle of the two main tracks. Rode under Atlantic Av station this morning and found the western most track
gone and boards out there for safety reasons. Nice run to 6Av. Union Sq looks real nice as well. Sorry I did not
go to 8Av.
F line: After helping a man to get to Brooklyn, I nearly
missed the F. Boarded R46#6112 which was the last car.
Hot and muggy. Got off at Rockefeller Ctr. Went to Red
Caboose. Nice subway models in there. Left store.
Q line: Boarded SlantR40#4321 at Rock Ctr. Excellent run
between 34 and W.4Sts. Did Bway-Lafayette always had blu
tile? I remember it haing green tile? Manhattan Bridge
was cool. The N tracks look about done except for a part
on the Brooklyn side that was covered up with a cutrain.
Observed the numerous tracks at Dekalb. I wish there was
a safe way to take a tour down there. Could not get a
railfan view because a conductor was standing there. Got
to Atlantic at 3pm. Bad, Very BAD! Brought back HS
memories.
4 line: Im used to this line o it was nothing new. Was
in R62#1592.
3 line: Boarded train @ Utica, my old stop. Boarded
R62A#2067. Last car of the train. There was a railfan
window available. Some type of constuction seemed to be
going along this line. Got off.
The Slant R40's are real fast. Keep them till they die... Also see the Franklin Shuttle tracks are laid down already.....
The L line brings back a lot of memories for me. I'll have to find some time this fall and check it out; I haven't ridden on it to Brooklyn since June 6, 1970. As for the Manhattan-bound run through the 14th St. tunnel, trains would typically lose speed as they approached First Ave. I'm sure the slant R-40s can maintain a higher speed than the BMT standards used to on the upgrade.
Heck, I consider virtually every subway ride I take as a railfan trip.
I agree with you: keep the slant R-40s for as long as possible. They still have lots of get-up-and-go. Their railfan window is second to none.
For those of us who don't go to Manhattan or ride the subway every day it is a treat. Yesterday, comming back from Binghamton, there was a big problem on the George Wash Bridge, so I diverted to the Lincoln Tunnel. Comming around the "big turn" I gave a long look at the skyline & realy didn't mind at all my trip across town right thru the hart of it (it helped that traffic was light). Then I hit the wall called the LIE & wished I could have hitched a ride on the LIRR.
Mr t__:^)
You're absolutely right. Since I've never lived or worked in New York, I've always seen myself as a visitor or quasi-tourist, and so the subway has always been a treat for me. My sister, who did live and work in the city for 12 years, told me more than once that I'd be singing a different tune if I had to use it daily for commuting purposes, and I have to admit she may be right. I get my annual fix in October.
Ah yes, God Bless our humble Slant R40.
I'm glad your day went well and that you were slanted accordingly. Nothing beats that elongated railfan window. Nothing.
Here are some of my observations:
The "L" curve between Wilson (did you see those 28-color tiles?) and Halsey is relatively broad; "L" trains aren't afraid of doing 30 there. Not so between Morgan (earth tones) and Montrose (pastels).
That curve is 95 degrees, sharper than a right angle. Its radius, however is in the "medium" category - if I were driving, I wouldn't go above 25. I don't think there are Grade-Timers in there. There's also a weak S-curve just outside of Morgan where it swings out of Harrison Place to McKibbin St. I'm sure you noticed the dead-slow between Grand St. and Graham Ave. Two rear-enders happened in there and now it's GT after GT with Red+Lunar White and NO KEY BY! Plus an enforced 8MPH speed limit up to the wicked left hook.
I think there is a distinct possibility that NYCT will recycle some of the old Fulton/Pitkin elevated structure to use for a Northbound track between Sutter and A.A.
Broadway-Lafayette station always had BLUE tile but not the current dark shade it now has. The original tile band had a delicate Powder Blue center (matte finish) with a Wedgewood Blue border - a shade of very deep, intense Sky Blue. Same color as center of band at IND Elmhurst Avenue station on the "R". This was the only station in the system to have this color. West 4th Street has the Green tile. The IND color order is: Red, Yellow, Green, Blue, Purple. Each express station, going OUTBOUND, the band changes color. The local stops that follow share the color of the last express station. Exception: Broadway E-NY-Euclid-Grant goes Blue-Purple-Green AFTER a Red Group; the correct order would have been Purple-Blue-Green. Exception 2: N Blvd and 65th St have much lighter purples (mauve!) than their sister stations & Queens Pza. Exception 3: The entire "G" line from Hoyt to Court Square - three different Greens.
Check out the IND Color Tile Table in the "IND" section of Station-by-Station. We even got the new 207th Street tile band in there. And all the correct color descriptions.
Wayne
I rather keep it a surprise. After setting up a time Pelham Dave to join him on the 2, I will ride the whole A line from 207 to Far Rock. I want to see the new tile for myself.......
Just make sure you get an A train of R-38s...
No doubt.. That is my plan. I heard R-32's are unning on the line right now.......
I think there's a mix of R32, R38 and R44 on the "A" right now, otherwise all the R38s are on the beefed-up "C". I'll find out this Saturday what's out there. Some R32s have been running on the "A" for some time now (a few months at least). I like the R38s better - the interiors are nicer and the front-end signs are at least legible.
Wayne
Wayne: What about those 10 R-32's rebuilt by Buffalo Transit Systems.
The interior is virtually the same as the R-38's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I read that those 10 particular R-32s have an identity crisis. They spend virtually all their time coupled with R-38s and almost never run as a solid train.
As for the A line, the R-32s can stay as long as they want. They'll always be a sentimental favorite, even without the blue doors, bulkhead roller curtains, and green illuminated side destination signs.
And marker lights.
Ah yes, the beloved R32-GE; there are but eight of them in revenue service now, as the folks up at 207th Street have cannibalised #3934-3935 as a parts car; otherwise, YES, you are 100% correct. The first time I rode one, it was #3594 and I did double-take after double-take inside it; wondering aloud if I was not seeing things, checking and re-checking the car number, making sure it wasn't really #3994 (it is Not - I was on that one Apr 24 for a glorious CPW express run). They are identical to the R38 inside, right down to the least interior detail; however they lack A/C due to problems with their compressor cradles, which they haven't figured out how to fix yet.
Wayne
Due to an unexpected change of plans I got to take my first ride on Baltimore's Metro yesterday afternoon. The Metro is apparently a single line with 14 stations and runs from Owings Mills in the north to Johns Hopkins in the south. A complete trip apparently takes only 29 minutes. I got to ride from Owings Mills to Lexington Market which took 23 minutes and covered 10 of the stops. All cars seem to be numbered in the 100 series, (Does this indicate a fleet of 100 cars or less?). The cars seem to be married pairs. My train south was two pair or four cars. The trip back five hours later was a six car train (three pairs). Door chimes warn of door operation and announcements of each station are made legibly before each station. All of the stations I saw were center platform. It appeared as if the entire train was operated by one person who acted as motorman and conductor. I was shocked to see that the motorman's cab was in the left front corner of the first car. My forty year ago memories of New York have the cab in the right front corner of the car. This left front position is ideal if all stops are at center platforms and the motorman is to operate the doors. I rode car #173 south and car #171 north. The cars appeared to be stainless steel, clean and grafiti free. Ride was smooth and acceleration was rapid. The ride seemed much more comfortable than those I remember in New York but my memories of NY are from many years ago and things have more than likely changed. It was my first ride on any form of rapid transit in more years than I care to remember. The fare was $1.35 or $2.70 round trip. There is apparently a $3.00 all-day unlimited trip ticket available. It was fun riding rapid transit again and renewed my interest in the hobby, and yes, the Orioles won too!
Karl: Glad to hear you got out on the rails. The Baltimore fleets consists of car nos 100-199 built by Budd Transit America 1983-86.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS Did you get to see those great LRV's running by Camden Yards.
Larry: No, I'm sorry, I missed them. My wife, who has seen them on other trips, tells me that me that we walked to the Yards from the wrong side to see the light rail. She has been there many times before with her sister and as a result was my tourguide. She was weary of my chatter about the Metro and was concentrating on showing me everything about the Yards like Babe Ruth's statue. I enjoyed the Metro ride so much that I'm sure I will be making another trip sometime and I will make a point to look for them then. I did get to ride on a #93 shuttle bus instead if walking back to the Metro. Regards, Karl
Don't forget that those in possession of the MTA Disability Reduced Fare Identification Card or Medicare Card can ride at US45c/ride or US$1/day pass or US$14/monthly pass (adult weekly pass is US$14, while the monthly pass ranges from US$54 to US$67.50).
The Baltimore MTA does NOT accept Medicare cards as proof of senior fare use. Only the MTA issued cards are accepted. No card? Pay $1.35 per ride or buy a day pass.
I often wondered what became of all of the Susan B Anthony silver dollars. It turns out that they have found a permanent home in the ticket vending machines and change machines on the Metro in Baltimore.
Path turnstiles give them out too. Not to mention stamp vending machines and probably any other vending machine that sells products worth more than $1.
-Dave
Bus fareboxes take them ... we get quite a few, particularly on the Express routes.
Mr t__:^)
Last time I used a Susan B. (left over from a LIRR TVM purchase) on a local bus the operator stopped me (even thought the farebox BEEPED a paid fare). Looked at the coin and then waved me pass.
Guess I surprised him..
Must have been on a TA bus, sorry couldn't resist ;-)
Seriously, the qty of SBA have incr. a bit here, but more & more folks are switching to the various flavors of MC, e.g. we see a couple of hundred $130 Unlim Express cards used on a week day.
Mr t__:^)
I am just going to have to get out more. I was shocked when I put the dollar bill in the vending machine at the Owings Mills Metro and got an Anthony silver dollar back. I had not seen one of those in years. I am used to the car wash machines around here where I get four quarters back for each dollar bill. The local bank has not had those Anthony coins in a number of years.
Karl B
Boston change machines, on the Green Line Riverside branch also give out SBAs in order to get on the inbound trolleys. In case of mechanical failure or a machine running out of coins, operators appear to take the dollar bills and stuff them into a side slot in the fare register, but I've been lucky so far and never had to present a bill to them.
NJT also dispenses the Susan B's as change. With the new dollar coin coming next year, though, I wonder what will happen - will the machines be converted (again) to recognize the new coin (it's not exactly the same size and weight) as well as the Susan B's, or will they just stick with one or the other? (The new coin is just as much a disgrace as the Susan B, in my opinion, but that's another subject altogether.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If it legal trender & fits into the farebox slot, then all the fareboxes will have to be converted.
I've nerver got a acceptable answer from the TA or Cubic as to why the SLOT wasn't made big enough to take half dollars. (GFI took the old, bigger Ike dollars, and half dollars)
- might be: didn't think anyone used them ... we didn't get many
- might be: would encourage too much foreign coin & junk, that would go ding as $1.00 or $ 1/2.
Mr t__:^)
It's surprising what will confuse the fare boxes or other automated collection systems. I've acquired several Israeli shekels in GSP token rolls (I use about one roll a month and seem to get a shekel every five or six rolls) - they're an exact match for the size and weight of the tokens, so I assume they entered the system through the fare baskets. Nobody's getting rich cheating the system, though - they're worth nearly the same as the token.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Back in the early to mid-80s (I believe), the Russian penny worked as well as a NYC subway token. I can't tell you how many rides I got using those pennies returning from a day at the beach in Brighton.
--Mark
Got stuff from all over the World here, incl. a FEW from Russia. Most of it goes clunk, but some counts as a fare. The best thing to happen recently was the new token, because the old one was the size of your local video-game room coin. Fortunately we only get a small handfull of all of them a week, but the DOT parking division has a big problem with a specific coin.
Mr t__:^)
The Soviet coin you refer to is a kopeck.
With inflation running amok in Russia, the kopeck has become all but worthless. If I'm not mistaken, they had a 5-kopeck coin called a piatak. It came in handy on Moscow's Metro, since a subway ride there cost 5 kopecks. Don't know if that's still true today.
probably not,70+ years of communism has left Russia a wreck
It's not the 70 years of communism that left Russia a wreck. It's the 8 years of sudden capitalism. Czarist Russia was MUCH worse.
[It's surprising what will confuse the fare boxes or other automated collection systems. I've acquired several Israeli shekels in GSP token rolls (I use about one roll a month and seem to get a shekel every five or six rolls) - they're an exact match for the size and weight of the tokens, so I assume they entered the system through the fare baskets.]
It's been claimed that some older vending machines can be fooled by NECCO candy wafers. These wafers are almost exactly the same size as a quarter, though of course much lighter.
The old NECCO wafer trick! I always thought it was very nice of the school administration to put them in the vending machines down by the laundry room - they wouldn't work in the washing machines but they'd fool the dryers (which were 10 cents for 10 minutes, half hour for a quarter back then).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder if Maxwell Smart ever heard of the old NECCO wafer trick. Goodness knows he knew just about every trick there was - and still fell for them!. (smirk)
The better machines look at weight & size before they count it as a fare ... I'm incl. non transit related machines too.
P.S. "size" can incl. diameter AND thickness.
Mr t__:^)
So, uh, what you're saying is, size does matter. ;-)
Both size matters and also what it's made out of - the latest in slug detection features a pair of electromagnets and a computer - The system works on eddy currents, and can detect, sort, and reject numerous coins. Side advantages include:
1) The computer can be programmed, and reprogramed to accept any coin - foreign or domestic. I believe the better systems can do this via a "learning" system, where you put examples of valid coins in. The manufacture loves this because one detector unit handles any kind of coin - only the sorting / storage chutes change.
2) By extension - new coins, or new tokens, can be programed into the system.
3) The coin changer setup can be had in a "drop in" replacement for old systems. It will interface with 120V logic used on older soda machines (it even uses the same plug that they've used for years and years) - BTW, the concept of a changing soda machine dates back at least a few decades - the first were electromechanical (solinoids and a few misc switches and a motor). I once saw one (mildly functional) Very slick device. Later ones were more electric than mechanical - today's are mostly fancy electronics, with solinoids to do the sorting out.
Most Susan B. Anthony dollars are sitting in government vaults. I've gotten them for change from stamp vending machines. If they're dated 1980 or 1981, I'll hang on to them, being the coin collector I am; otherwise they end up in the collection basket in church.
IMHO, if the new dollar coin is readily identifiable as such, it should catch on. I understand it will have a bronze tint. The real problem with the SBA dollar was that it looked too much like a quarter.
(Warning, getting offtopic)
> The real problem with the SBA dollar was that it looked too
> much like a quarter.
Complainers :-) I can identify susiebucks by feel in my pocket with other change. I guess I just have them more often than the average person. Of course, I once tried to use 3 susiebucks to buy breakfast and the cafeteria checkout lady didn't know what they were. I had to make her call the manager over. Course, I should have used a susiebuck and a two dollar bill.
-Dave
"susiebucks" That's a new nickname to me. I kind of like it. Baltimore Metro could call those change machines "susiebuck" machines.
Karl B
Down here we also refer to them as "Lizzie Borden" Dollars. That image of Susan B. is the UGLY champ of money.
You can always save your Susan B's for PATCO. That's what you get from PATCO's change machines also.
SBA were only made three years.
It's interesting that casinos use Kennedy half dollars, but their own dollars, probally relates to limited supplay of SBAs and almost no avail. of Ikes & older silver dollars.
Sorry Dave ... I'll stop my contrib to this thread.
Mr t__:^)
Here is a list of transit systems taking SBA Dollars:
PATH, PATCO, NJT, NYCT Bus fare boxes, Private lines(Queens Surface et al)
The orig. post on this subject prompted me to make a couple of calls, one to the TA, the second to our coin machine repairer.
The latter FAXed me a copy of a article off the internet. Within it I found the following (about the new golden-colored $1):
- Same diameter as SBA $1
- To be the same weight it will have to be thicker
- May appear in circulation early in year 2000 (another Y2K problem !)
P.S. Thickness could be a problem at the TA & "privates" as the coin slot will only tollerate just so much thickness in a coin ... I've tryed a few & some don't fit.
Thanks guys for the nudge :-) Mr t
Gold color? That I like- not with transit, but I have given SBAs as quartewrs and that hurts!. OF course I could see it now- I give a gold dollar(the new gold color dollar coin) to a customer and they'll say "what is that". I also see problems with vending machines-- I remember when the first "red edge" dimes came out-- the machines insisted on "Old" dimes and the nerw dimes would not work. This is the same problem with the new $20. I dread seeing the new $1 when it comes out unless vending machines are updated.
Vending machines are having problems right now with the new `50 State' quarters. The first two out -- Deleware and Pennsylvania -- tend to fly right through from the top slot to the coin return. This could be because they have the weight and feel of something that's made partially of plastic.
Eye spoke to a TA person in Brooklyn ... he said they knew about the new dollar coin, but then maybe he just said that so I would change the subject ?
Mr t__:^)
The Boston Globe is reporting today that the Treasury will mint additional SBA dollar coins to hold us over for the next year until the new coins are produced. It seems that there is a shortage of SBAs (even though most people dislike them) to fill the needs of vending machines that require them.
BTW, it's time for another weekend of Transit & Weather Together. I have three FunPasses (thanks to the mail order system, which worked well) in hand, and hope to be on the 1:00 pm Shuttle from Boston and "on the system" by 2:30! Hope to see some of you at the NYD/ERA meeting tonight.
That's interesting. I read a few years back that there were millions of SBA dollars sitting around in government vaults. Maybe that's not the situation anymore.
There were - but the government, thinking they would never be needed, destroyed them. This info comes from a US Army colonel of my acquaintance who was involved in their destruction - which was done in Germany, of all places, for security reasons.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why doesn't that surprise me?
They could have just melted them down at the mints the way all those silver coins were melted in the late 60s and early 80s.
> The latter FAXed me a copy of a article off the internet. Within it > I found the following (about the
> new golden-colored $1):
> - Same diameter as SBA $1
> - To be the same weight it will have to be thicker
Why would it have to be thicker? The coloring will presumably be a thin layer of plating on the ouside. If it actually contained any gold the dimensions would need to be smaller, not larger. So why can't the dimensions be the same as the SBA$?
Anyone know when these new "Sacajawea" dollars are actually supposed to be released? Or if a final design for the portrait of Sacajawea has been selected?
(In case anyone doesn't know, Sacajawea was a Shoshone (?) Indian girl, age 15, who helped guide Lewis and Clark on their famous expedition. She is to be featured on the new dollar, and several portraits of her were submitted as possible designs. A final choice was, I believe, to be made sometime this year.)
The article FAXed to me is from USA Today 11/10/97, some maybe someone else can update it (i.e. regarding the options that were being considered back then). In any case here's a little more detail:
"Mint is nearing key decision points on alloy system ..."
"Alloy ... either 'Nordic Gold' -- a copper/zinc/aluminum/tin alloy, or 'Modified British Pound' -- a copper/zinc/nickle alloy."
"Weight ... If the new coin is to be exactly the same weight as the SBA, then the thickness must be altered."
Mr t__:^)
Correct. It's not going to be plated - that would add too much cost to the production - it's going to be a new alloy, which affects the weight. I haven't seen any info indicating which alloy was selected (although I'm sure the decision must have been made by now), but I do seem to recall having seen something about the new coin being THINNER than the SBA dollar, in an effort to save material (and cost) and reduce consumer complaints about the weight of the coin.
The design decision has been made but I don't remember which one was selected. In my opinion, the choice of Sacagawea was inappropriate; the dollar coin should represent America and American ideals, and what better choices than either the mythical Lady Liberty or the Statue of Liberty? But liberty isn't important to Congress or politicians any more, only being "politically correct", hence the choice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think Sacagawea is **merely** a "politically correct" choice. Read the history of the Lewis & Clark expedition, or watch the PBS special they did on it. Sacagawea made important contributions to the success of the expedition, and some would say it would have failed without her. Anyway how does she not represent "America and American ideals" when she assisted in the settlement and development of the country all the way to the Pacific coast? If anything, she's probably politically INcorrect to many who see her as assisting "dead white European males" to cross the continent and thus eventually drive the native Americans off their lands.
It's not fair to pick someone just because they are native American and a woman, but its equally not fair to dismiss her selection just because she's native American and a woman.
Anyhow, what does this have to do with subways?
Subways are neat for the soul.
And we all know that everyone needs a soul.
What is the best route in terms of being both efficient & reasonable economical when going from New Rochelle to Boston? If I am given a couple of web sites that contain schedules and routes I'm sure I can figure out which mode of transportation to take i.e., subway or train. Thank you for any help as to this request!
Amtrak stops at New Rochelle on its way to Boston (some trains). Others you'll have to take Metro North to Stamford or New Haven and connect to Amtrak for Boston. No subways involved.
www.amtrak.com -> Amtrak
www.mta.nyc.ny.us -> Metro North
On Friday May 7 at 10:21 pm at Bedford Park Blvd of the D train, a diesel engine powered VAKTRAK went southbound to points unknown. It was 6 cars long with a motorpersons cab at both ends of the Vaktrak. I saw the inside of the cab and it had screens that are like tv's. Is this the train that looks at the tracks close up on the Tv screens or cleans up garabge from the tracks?
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
VAKTRAK is the vacuum train.
David
[On Friday May 7 at 10:21 pm at Bedford Park Blvd of the D train, a diesel engine powered VAKTRAK went southbound to points unknown. It was 6 cars long with a motorpersons cab at both ends of the Vaktrak. I saw the inside of the cab and it had screens that are like tv's. Is this the train that looks at the tracks close up on the Tv screens or cleans up garabge from the tracks?
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.]
For those involved in signal/track, when the Williamsburg Bridge gets new track and new signals, will the MAS be increased or is thisjust another exercise in futility?
I am not involved directly, but from what I hear, amazingly, the answer is yes. As you can see from the B39, the whole profile on the eastern approach is being lowered to remove the inexplicable rise and then downgrade onto the bridge. Also, the signals are being upgraded, which may remove some speed restrictions.
Is the bridge still open to Auto's??????
It's open to everything but trains at this point. The current repair progression is going from the south outer roadway to the north outer roadway. The south roadways are completed, and work on the north roadways will be done when the trains are restored.
-Hank
[I am not involved directly, but from what I hear, amazingly, the answer is yes. As you can see from the B39, the whole profile on the eastern approach is being lowered to remove the inexplicable rise and then downgrade onto the bridge. Also, the signals are being upgraded, which may remove some speed restrictions.]
Actually, it's quite "explicable." From what I hear, the rise was put in so the structure would clear the trolley cars entering and leaving Bridge Plaza.
David
I've just updated my "Modeling the NYC Subway" site at http://www.monmouth.com/user_pages/patv/railroad.html.
Photos from the May 1 & 2, 1999 East Penn Meet, as well as new photos of David Harrison's O Gauge Chicago L layout have been added. There are now 30 photos of NYC, Philly, and Chicago model subway and elevated lines as of this update.
On or before June 1, look for updated photos of the NYC R27 project. New detailing has been added to the roof and storm doors (including new windows in doors).
Pat
Where were you at the show? I was there with my videos - wish you would have stopped by.
Also, I'll be in touch with you regarding my layout - I videotaped it and once I get my new computer (and snappy) I'll have photos to add to your site.
--Mark
following on the success of the New York and Philly Pages, and the pending MARTA Page, I am looking for volunteers to do station by station pages for other rail system such as BART, Chicago, Boston (The T), etc.
The only input I have will be to forward your work to Dave Pirmann who will make the final edit.
I'd cover these systems myself but sont have enough vacation time and funds to travel to all these cities. I know we have sub talkers in many cities.
Now is your chance to see your name in lights! NYCSubway.org is a fantadtic site and your input will make it even better!
ps- SEPTA's Regional Rail is being done by Bob W and myself--stay tuned!
I was reading all the messages you guys have posted on how horrible OPTO is and being from Chicago and ridding the CTA, it really isn't that bad in some cases.
Many of the Motormen turned conductors just annonuce the station, say doors are closing and close the doors without looking at the back of the train. They then take leave the station while announcing the next station and the CTA rules between certain stations. The doors will pop back open if anybody gets caught between them anyway.
With the new microphones which are similar to telephones they can walk back into the cab with the mic.
If you have a fast and good motorman turned conductor it isn't that bad. It takes about the same amount of time as it did for a conductor to open a window, look out, and close the window.
Some of them are really bad and take a long time at each station, but if they are realy behind in schedule you usually end up getting an express ride to the station you suppost to be at anyway.
Im not being cute. By this person ought to see a Therapist. When he's on his way home at two in the morning, and some thug tries to "ask for some change" Then he will understand that OPTO is BAD.
Sounds like the situation you pose doesn't call for a conductor, but for more police on the subway.
Thank You. Like the conductor will get in the way anyhow? The last one that we know of trying was shot for his effort. The train crew is not the NYPD.
-Hank
No, the conductor won't act like a human shield. But the "bad guys" know that the extra set of eyes who can call for help promptly is missing.
But what about all the cars the conductor is NOT riding in?
The careful rider WILL ride in the conductors car. With OPTO, no such thing.
Hey, there's always the operators car, where we all usually ride....
-Hank
how is this motorman concentrating on operating the train while making public address announcements? sounds like improper operation to me. Isn't the operator supposed to look OUT OF THE train as the doors are closing? suppose some one tries boarding as doors close and the operator doesn't see this and the train POSSIBLY takes power while the DOOR MALFUNCTIONS and has a person dragged.. malfunctions do occur and the person dragged.
Here we go again. The pros and cons of OPTO can be catagorized in one of two, with the overview:
1. If your system started with OPTO with Day 1, it's OK (See Baltimore, Miami, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Washington, Cleveland,etc.)
2. If your system started from Day 1 with Motorman and Conductors, it's bad. (See NYCTA, CTA,etc.)
There will never be even ground.
All of the OPTO systems in 1. run trains with end doors locked, so you can't run from car to car. All cars have trainlined intercoms so that passengers can convers with the operator if a problem arises. Also, all doors have sensitive edges that WORKS!! If a door is held open, the brake circuit will not release and power cannot be taken. The operator CANNOT override this. In ATO or manual operation, the door circuit is supreme.
If NYCT desires full OPTO, then they must be ready to expend the dollars to retofit ALL cars as above. If not, they are looking for disaster.
[All cars have trainlined intercoms so that passengers can convers with the operator if a problem arises.]
However, one problem with the CTA OPTO conversion is that only roughly 20% of the fleet (the 3200's MK 1992) have intercom systems.
The other eighty percent of the fleet has none!
Jim K.
Chicago
aside from a motorman using side door by pass( upon permission from control center) malfunctions can occur where a train could take motor power without indication present. Where a population the size of NYC I cannot see opto used safely without fatalities occuring. AS for Mirrors, monitors and such i saw at control center what looks like an arrangement with monitor mounted in a train operators cab and using infrared transmission to wayside receiver to monitor cameras mounted on the platform to monitor a trains side doors for OPTO implementation. I my opinion I still feel it is unsafe in any form...
I agree completely. The vastness, sheer volume and complexity makes OPTO and any form of Automated train operation unrealistic. The only exceptions I could see would be shuttle lines like Times Square (originally a site of a doomed computer-controlled train) and Franklin Avenue in Brooklyn.
Anyone who favors OPTO or automated train operation is either (1) anti-people or (2) isn't a true railfan or (3) both. Call me an old fashioned romantic, but I think something is lost on a human level if the day comes when something as internationally recognized as the New York City Subway and its trains becomes just another piece of high-tech computer-controlled entity.
Doug aka BMTman
Have to say that I fear human error the most, so automatic train control with OPTO doesn't scare me. You still have a professional on the train. Getting on the road with amatuers driving -- THAT scares me.
But as I said, NYC will only adopt an innovation after everyone else has. By that time, it should be possible to have real evidence of the effect of OPTO, with before and after dwell time (sure it could be faked), and deaths and lawsuits (not likely to be faked) data.
Well, since it's proven itself in several other cities, now New York is coming on. Although, I do wish New York would once again be the innovator. Oh, and using the 'bypass' switch requires that the train actually be checked to see if there IS a door open, so 'dragging' a passenger isn't an issue. If the operator uses the bypass without checking the train, guess what? That's HUMAN error.
-Hank
[If the operator uses the bypass without checking the train, guess what? That's HUMAN error.]
How would you feel if you, one of your loved ones, or a friend was a victim of "human error"?
I just can't see the long range economics of OPTO. Sooner or later a law suit will cut heavily into any savings. Sure, you can say it would be paid out of insurance money; however, insurance premiums then go up after each accident. Even have an auto accident?
Jim K.
Chicago
It's still HUMAN ERROR, and not caused by OPTO, so it makes no difference. The computer didn't move the train, the HUMAN in charge did not look first. Just like crossing the street; if you only look left, and the car hits you from the right the minute you step into the crosswalk, who's fault is it?
-Hank
Note recent news item from San Francisco Muni Metro subway/surface system. operator left train for comfort/relief, unfortunately having mistakenly programmed the car. while he was using the facilities the doors closed and the train proceeded--NO operator on board!! several stops later the trolley was stopped by another crew person.
Then a few stories about ATO like this. Seems like a REALLY bad design! Don't think it should be able to happen in DC, where the operator has to close the doors from inside the cab, and press a start button. Seems obvious that starting the train should require a positive action, by someone inside the cab, in addition to the other indications that the train is ready to go. Was this not true in SF?
Nope, the new train control system in the Market St subway (when it's not stalling trains in tunnels for no reason whatsoever)supposedly operates by itself, TO is just supposed to watch & make sure nothing goes wrong (or at least this is the impression I've gotten from the newspaper reports out here). This is no trivial task, because things *do* go wrong. Most of the problems have been unexplained stoppages. Officials say this has been due to old cars not interfacing w/ the train control system. But if this can happen, it worries me that something worse could happen as well.
And then, just to throw the TO's to the opposite extreme, most of the routes away from the CBD are old-time streetcar routes that share busy surface lanes with cars, pedestrians, etc. Then they've had problems with getting trains arriving from the surface routes "initalized" into the ATO system, causing backups at portals to the subway.
Granted, SF MUNI in many ways is an example of how to do things wrong (questionable 90's hi-tech patching abomniable 70's hi-tech, grafted onto an old streetcar system). I don't know too much about ATO/OPTO on BART because I don't ride it often. Anybody with more knowledge on Bay Area ATO/OPTO systems, please correct me.
Bottom line for me, tho, is this-
SF MUNI is *unreliable*
BART is #$&% expensive
NY Subway has reasonable fares & gets you where you need to go on-time 95% of the time
This may be due to other factors than ATO, but that's my impression from riding all three.
*Plus* I would rather see public $ employing real live working people in the cities than having those same $ pad the profits of hi-tech consultancy firms. Another factor to consider with ATO projects is that they seem to attract bribery, kickbacks, & crooked contracting deals. Just an observation.
Bye for now.
I have read with great interest the current thread on OPTO.
Unless you've actually experienced the conversion I don't think you really know the impact of OPTO. BTW, once OPTO is on the scene, it is here to stay.
Take travel time for instance. The CTA's own estimation was it would add 10-12 minutes to the running time of the Red Line. Cutting this in half if you're traveling from the northside or southside, it may not sound to bad; however, the perception that the ride takes much longer turns off riders.
Put that together with safety issues, both operation and on train, and your traveling public isn't feeling to good about the trains. Note, I've noticed most of the riders on the Red Line in off-peak are crowding into the first two - three cars of an eight-car train. Very few venture into the seventh and eighth cars for the trip during the hours that kids are communting back and forth to school.
CTA's train length is roughly 400 ft. (eight cars at 48.8 ft). I've heard operators say it is VERY difficult to determine what activity, boarding and alighting, is going on at the end of the train on congested platforms.
In comparison, NYC operates trains that are far longer than CTA.
I'm all for transit operators saving money. It is a fact of life that the public trough is not endless; however, transit systems built in the early 1900's are NOT safe candidates for OPTO.
Although I’m not waiting for this an accident to happen, ONE dragging incident could produce a lawsuit that would wipe out any labor savings the CTA has had or expects to have in the future. Witness Rachel Barton who recently was awarded $29 million plus by a jury involving a METRA dragging accident. Ms. Barton did not die in the accident, but did lose a leg.
Jim K.
Chicago
When I was obsering OPTO on the G Line on a Sunday most of the people rode the first car. On one trip it was standing room only and the other 4 cars where almost empty. ofcause this was only one Sunday.
All lines operated by London Underground (except approx 50% of the Northern Line)are operated using the OPTO method of working and have been for a number of years.
Technology is so advanced nowadays that the in-cab display available to the train operator on the Northern Lines new stock that a "crystal clear" view of the platform whilst performing platform duties AND when
motoring away from the platform is available.
In recent years two tragic events occured on other "tube" lines where
passengers had items of clothing trapped in the doors and were dragged with the departing train leading to fatal injuries.Had a guard
been present on these trains it would not have occured,but so few incidents versus the number of trains in use and you don't have to be an accountant to view the savings.
Look at London, 1999 will indeed see a changing of the guard for the last time! ,when for the first time since the system opened ALL lines will be one person operated. New York can learn from our achievements
and learn even more from our mistakes.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
[In recent years two tragic events occured on other "tube" lines where passengers had items of clothing trapped in the doors and were dragged with the departing train leading to fatal injuries.Had a guard been present on these trains it would not have occured,but so few incidents versus the number of trains in use and you don't have to be an accountant to view the savings.]
Has the life of a human being been so cheapened that accountants and management of of transit operations can justify the occurance of a dragging accident? If this is so, I feel, said officals should be the first ones on defense in court when the accidents occur.
Secondly, if the public is behind the union on the safety issue, would they be willing to pay an extra dime to ride?
I am not a motorman or conductor for the union. I am however very frustrated at what the removal of conductors from the CTA's Red and Blue lines has done to the service.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim, you have "hit the nail on the head"!
Accountants viewing a yearly payroll for hundreds of conductors/guards
or paying a very rare out of court payment to a family who have suffered a loss..again the accountants win.
With the last London Underground line now going over to OPTO the guard/conductor is now confined to history over here, i feel that other cities will take Londons lead as you mentioned with CTA's red and blue line.
Regards
Rob ;^)
Wasn't the speed reduction due more the the elimination of the A/B service and that OPTO further slowed the service a bit. two trains running together but stopping at every other stop seemed like a much faster ride. Not very efficient labor wise though
In a long train if there is one train crew member or two still leaves a lot of cars with not crew person in them and a lot of responsibility for the public to behave well. Station personel can also help with safety concerns
I do not know what the answer to OPTO is but I expect we will find out.
Without taking sides on OPTO (at least in this thread!)
You CAN spend too much money on safety on a transit system, and end up COSTING lives. Why? Transit is SO much safer than driving, even in OPTO form, even in an old system like London. If you spend money on something for safety, you do not have that money to expand service or keep fares low. Either way you lose passengers, most of whom end up driving instead. If it is a significant number of passengers, as it will be if we are talking about significant amounts of money, it is assured that some of them will die as a result of driving instead of taking transit. Won't make the news, though, and the TA does not get sued.
I don't mean to justify London's clearly insufficient means of ensuring that no one is caught in the doors. If you are going to go opto, you need to be sure that no one is in the doors! And if service degrades as a result of OPTO, well that is different (more people back in dangerous cars).
Sorry, but guards/conductors do **not** prevent door accidents
, however sad they may be.
During the 1960s I was a lawyer with London Transport, dealing with accident claims. I recollect three or four incidents a year in which passengers were caught in closing doors, or forced open doors which had closed, unknown to the guard who couldn't see the whole train because of other passengers on platforms.
If anything OPO is safer because of better platform surveillance equipment.
Geoff
(In reality, OPTO safer) But is it slower, as some have said?
Yes "better platform surveilance equipment" For now and until the TA invests fully in the required equipment (too cheap) it is dangerous.
After the modifications are done, then it can and will work. Then I will support it. Now, I devote my full energies to fighting it.
(OPTO added 10-12 minutes to a trip, CTA says). If the reality is that it would add 5-6 minutes each way to your commute, then its not a good idea. It would be as bad as the Manhattan Bridge. But I'd want some verification of that -- are there before and after schedules available? Time is quality in transportation.
I've stated many times for the record that I am not a fan of OPTO. However, I took a ride on the G one weekend night. I rode in the cab and observed the operation - first hand. These are my observations:
- Since the majority of the station platforms are on the operator side, the operator has to cross the cab only a limited number of times.
- When he stops, he announces the station and opens the doors.
- He then makes the obligatory announcement and then closes the door.
- Once he has indication, he looks out to insure that no one is trapped.
- He then proceeds.
Does OPTO work? Yes in the setting of short, off-peak trains.
What is lost? Well we don't observe the train for 3 car lengths when in OPTO. We also do not have a person to man the radio if the operator has to go to the roadbed. The train is somewhat slower.
What do we gain? Lower costs. Less ABDs (abandonments) due to No Conductor available.
Are the trade-offs worth the gains? - I don't see it but then again, I'm no bean counter.
As regards the radio, this isn't as important as it once was, since the Train Operator's radio is now a handheld like the Conductor's, instead of being a "portable" that relied on the train for power.
David
[What is lost? Well we don't observe the train for 3 car lengths when in OPTO. We also do not have a person to man the radio if the operator has to go to the roadbed. The train is somewhat slower.]
Yah but there are lots of times those radio's die on you when your down the road. There where times my conductor had to relay messages for me to control center or a local tower.
I should have added to my prior message side door bypass with permission is in relation to a train in passenger service where the train does not have indication for side doors closed and locked.
Having read all the posts on this very touchy subject, I repost what I posted earlier. I'm not in subway management anywhere, but this "one-man" process was fought out by the streetcar industry in the 1920's and 1930's, and we all know it was a succes and universally accepted.
So, here it is one last time. IF there are ANY differing points of view, post it after this.
The pros and cons of OPTO can be catagorized in one of two, with the overview:
1. If your system started with OPTO with Day 1, it's OK (See Baltimore, Miami, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Washington, Cleveland,etc.)
2. If your system started from Day 1 with Motorman and Conductors, it's bad. (See NYCTA, CTA,etc.)
There will never be even ground.
All of the OPTO systems in 1. run trains with end doors locked, so you can't run from car to car. All cars have trainlined intercoms so that passengers can convers with the operator if a problem arises. Also, all doors have sensitive edges that WORKS!! If a door is held open, the brake circuit will not release and power cannot be taken. The operator CANNOT override this. In ATO or manual operation, the door circuit is supreme.
If NYCT desires full OPTO, then they must be ready to expend the dollars to retofit ALL cars as above. If not, they are looking for disaster.
SF BART is OPTO or rather OPT attendant who watches the computer run the train. S/he overrides doors and makes announcements. at least once one of them fell asleep but the train continued. 2 the end doors are mercifully not locked. Yes there is intercom. You are in general correct that the opinions are tied to the local history.
Unfortunately, OPTO does not take into account the possibility of a sick passenger aboard a train. Should it be late at night and no other passengers are aboard to call for help -- for argument sake -- a heart attack victim could go w/o help and perhaps die.
Obviously, unless this person were in the conductor's car, he/she wouldn't be noticed anyway.
Just a quick thought.
(Heart attacks, security, etc.) That argues for having a conductor roaming through the train off peak and leaving the train operator to handle to doors, just as the token sellers will not be moving through the station. You can't do much in a booth in either case.
Coincidently, TA rules used to require that on runs where the time between stations was 5 minutes or more the Conductor had to "patrol the train"
I'm not saying that I'm a fan of OPTO, however would you rather have the CTA cut more of it's transit services or reduce them to week-days only or implement OPTO.
With the security issue, they have security guards roaming the stations that need it during overnight hours. I personally would rather see them roaming the trains.
Lets also be honest. Even if a conductor was on the train can they really see everybody and watch what they are doing at a station like Addison street on the Red Line after a Cubs game?? NO, they just say the doors are closing and hope for the best. Half of the people get caught in the doors, get out, and have to wait for the next train. You could have a person in every car of the train and you still have to do this.
A conductor ridding throught a busy subway station like Washington/State also can't possibly make sure everyone is clear of the doors or see beyond the crowd of people in front of them to see if all the doors on the train are clear.
The only way you could really be safe is have a camera on each set of doors that the motorman would have to review before leaving each station.
I think if conductors have to be gettin rid of it does suck, but we can never really be safe even with them. And people like us who ride and know the trains know how to be safe and don't need them anyway.
BJ
Has anyone ever noticed the grafitti on the signal equipment boxes on IRT in the Bronx (particularly on the Pelham Bay line)? I saw "OPTO Kills" written in white (what looked like grease pencil) on a lot of the boxes... rather interesting.
Mike
Just because it's written in graffiti, doesn't make it any less true.
I agree, alot of people want to see opto as a way to lower the fare which it won't. Its a boon doggle which in these times of ridership increase isn't business smart.
It won't lower the fare, but it will reduce operating costs, thus keeping the fare down. OPTO is standard operating procedure for the majority of the worlds transit systems, and don't tell me it won't work in New York because of the age of the system. It works quite well in London, and their system is older. I have many times asked people opposed to OPTO to show me an instance where an injury was directly related to OPTO, and no one has yet come through. The conclusion is simple, really. OPTO is perfectly safe, and the only reason to oppose it is to save jobs. The TA sure isn't going to lay anyone off, so the only way those jobs will be lost is by not replacing retirees and promotees. Thus, the union loses a dues-payer, and with the current state of union leadership in this city, I'd say they're crying because they can't take their vacations on the workers dime.
-Hank
Hank there where lot of times Conductors saved lifes. I don't no if the following problem occurs in other cities but in NYC these Youths think a fun after school activity is Surf rideing the back of a subway train. There where lots of times I was leaveing the station the conductor would pull the Emergency Brake because someone tryed to ride the back of my train. If it was not for the conductor there may have been a body along the track descoved by the following train. Also if NYCT did this full time what are they going to run 5 Cars. I can see a 5 car Uptown No.1 train at Times Square on the PM Rush Hour with the OPTO person trying to close down the train. If they did it with 10 Cars it would crazy.
But that would not be the direct fault of OPTO, it would be the direct fault of idiocy on the part of the 'surfer'. And if your conductor didn't spot the induhvidual(s) [-thanks Scott Adams], it's not his fault either. Once the doors are closed, the train is safe to move if there's no one in front of the train and your signal is green. No amount of supervision or safety devices, short of closing the system to induhviduals (try and weed THEM out) or using walls and platform doors (a REALLY expensive solution) will stop it. Hell, they even climb up on top from between cars. Not your responsability, and I dare anyone to say it is (besides Allen Rothenberg and the like; no offense Mr. Bredin). Any jury of people with IQs over 75 should be able to figure out where the fault lies.
-Hank
OPTO is not that bad. It's management's perogative to try and save money.
Yeah that's what you say, because your'e not Conductor or a Motorman!
When you are out there all alone on the road, and the train breaks down, and the radio's in a dead spot.
Or worse, you need help, and the radio is in a dead spot. Every one has a smart answer for this, oh It saves money. It's progress, everyone else is doing it.
New York is not Chicago or Boston OR London.
Why the fleet at Jamaica Yard alone is bigger than Chicago's entire fleet. We carry too many people on trains that are too long. There are platforms in this system that are crowded 24/7. Straight ones, that even with cameras are difficult. That after one train leaves, there are still a signifigant number of people there. So just because the TA made it work in the Rockaways, where hardly no one rides, don't think it will work every where. It's not working on the G. I have a close friend who works Court Sq. Every weekend. I hear of Dispatchers told by the Supt. to forge arrival times on train register sheets. Because so many trains arrive ten end twelve minutes late.
I hear of supervisors ordring OPTO train operators to violate the operating rules, so as to make up time. I hear of accidents and crimes that get covered up. The TA want's this to work, and they are obviously going to great lengths to make it work.
ONE law suit (let's not do the Lawyer thing again please) will wipe away all the savings for that year. Regardless of whether the TA wins or not.
The woman that was raped on the G a few months back. She was in the last car of the 4 car R46. WHERE THE CONDUCTOR WOULD HAVE BEEN. No he's no cop, I agree. But I very much doubt that the rapist would be as brazen enough to attempt to comit his filthy crime in front of witnesses!
Now I'm a realist. I know that they really have a hard on for this, and manegement won't give it up. At least not without a major concession. A few months back, they offered us(TWU) OPTO, in exchange for us giving up our current civil service title system. Both Conductors and Motormen would be merged into one title and promotion would then be based on manangement's whim. We told them a resounding no! If they want it that bad to offer us OPTO, then hell no, it's gonna be bad for us.
But it goes to show you, they know OPTO isin't working. It's costing them more in extra supervision than it would have cost, just to pay a damn conductor!
But their hubris won't allow them to admit this, so they have to quietly get rid of it, like as if it was a concession to us or some thing. Try and save face.
To prove a little more, OPTO was supposed to be coming to the C on CPW for the week ends. But that went in the can.
It was also supposed to be on the Nasssau St. shuttle. Where'd that go?
The Rockaway's probably not going because the dumb train operators out there break the rules for management and make the stuff work. Lazy fools.
Interesting to see what happens though.
Still changes nothing in the TA's grand plan. They want to get rid of the title CONDUCTOR. Many of the jobs we traditionaly have held were given to other people in the last few years. Soon all we will have left is the road jobs, and then sooner or later after that, TA will fold our titile into the train opertor ,like they already tried, and then the book will close on another page of transit history.
One more thing to add. With the Grand Cenral Shuttle they are paying more for OPTO then just having a Conductor. Now with the true definition of OPTO the Grand Cental shuttle would not realy be OPTO. Anyway the 42 St Shuttle has 2 train Operaters one on both ends on all tracks. Exept when TK 4 is not running. At Grand Central there is a TSS there all the time. Ofcause there it always been like that. Now at Times Square there is a Platform Conductor stationed at the old Conductors position.
soon the second t/o will be removed and then the cost savings will show also, there was always a T.S.S. assigned to the Grand Central complex
The woman that was raped on the G a few months back. She was in the last car of the 4 car R46. WHERE THE CONDUCTOR WOULD HAVE BEEN. No he's no cop, I agree. But I very much doubt that the rapist would be as brazen enough to attempt to comit his filthy crime in front of witnesses!
It could easily have taken place in the third car, or on a longer train, anywhere. It has more to do with a lack of police presence, a rider not riding safely (being aware of surroundings, etc.), and the true lack of a way for anyone (including crew) to call for help.
Obviously, much infrastructure improvement is neccesary for OPTO to truly work, and I don't expect to see it in wide use for several years, but there is absolutely no reason why it can't work, and be 99.9% safe. (nothing is 100% foolproff) Personally, I'd like to see a system where the speed is controlled like it is on the LIRR and MNCR, if not a semi-auto system such as that in use on WMATA or BART, which is a lot safer than complete human control. The whole objection to OPTO is job, not safety related. Otherwise, more WORKERS would follow the rules, and (no offense to you or other workers who don't do the following) smoke, listen to radios, flirt, graffitti signals and punch boxes, or otherwise abuse the system.
-Hank
I wouldn't say the WHOLE argument against is about saving jobs. But I'll play to your side a moment.
You seem to have an easy answer for everything, but in reality, theres no simple solution. Here, and Now, the OPTO thing is wrong. I do agree in a perfect world,it will work. But in the enviornment we have, it is dangerous. Out in the Rockaways it does OK.But the ambitious fools weren't satisified. Now they want more. And they are more than willing to sacrifice safey to push OPTO where it's not ready for it.
Do you really think a crowded C carrying partygoers from saturday evening festivities on CPW is a place for OPTO? Now with an R68a?
At 2AM yes. But then again the C dosen't run then.
I have said this before, I am a realist. I know as a conductor, my job is doomed. But the whole process is not the problem. Just the way it's currently being carried out.
Yes, OPTO is ineviteble. But it has to be done within reason. Not just for the sake of having it, TO SAVE MONEY!
Cameras, inter-coms, doors with sensitive edges. Not the way things they are now. But that's asking for too much from the blood sucking scum that resides on the 13th floor.
(My job is doomed). OPTO, if it is ever implemented, will take a long time. But even if it were implemented overnight, some of that money (I'd hope all of it) would be used to hire more train operators to run more off-peak service. And conductors would be first in line for the job, and the raise.
Why should those fat cat bastards upstate and on jay street save money? we all pay a g*d damned buck fifty to ride the system. if they want opto they should lower the fare. if they can charge us 1.5 rocks they can at least give us 2 sets of eyes.
Well said. Thank you. I agree.
But it does show a lack of respect for the equipment. Amazing how they blame 'vandals' for some damage that can only be caused by employees.
-Hank
Yes I seen that on most of the IRT Lines in the Bronx. On the No.1/9 Line its on the signal North of 238 Street on the Uptown. On the No.2 Line I seen the Grafitti on the signals at Pelham Parkway Northbound and Southbound and others on the No.2+5 Lines. on the No.6 Line North of Burhre Ave. Most on the Griffiti is done on the Elevated Structure in Northern part of the Bronx. Also its only written on Signals before or after the station.
READ the Writing on the WALL
Thanks Steve.
I had always thought that the Flat Motor had the same trucks as an R1. Two motors per axle. Sounds like the arrangement on a GG1.
The engine you mentioned, was that an IND engine? Or a loaner from BMT?
I know the IRT had Steam, from the El days, and the BMT probably had them too. I would really like to find a reference on the subject.
Thanks for the invitation. I promise not to violate the Taylor law or my Union Bylaws. Do you have a C/I named Kenny Newton working there? I knew the man, through a mutual friend some years ago. His mom was an RTO Supt. on the Flushing line.
CI Newton worked for me many years ago. He became a semi-celebrity due to his medical problems. His wife also is in transit and is a bit more infamous.
You can get my phone # at any Of the terminals and give me a call when you want to visit.
For those unfamiliar, U.S. vs National City Lines was the antitrust case in which General Motors was convicted of participating in the willful dissolution of streetcar systems, though the sanction against it was a slap on the wrist.
I've reprinted the 1974 "Third Rail" article on the subject at http://rapidtransit.net, for those who are interested in some detail.
Also at the site, I've added some more Silver Leaf publications to the list since I last announced, including thumbnails of covers for collectors.
Questions or comments are welcome.
--Paul
Two items of interest today from the Boston area MBTA.
First, there is a bill pending in the state house to raise fares over the next few years. By 2001, the subway fare would go from .85 to $1; the bus fare from .60 to .85. A further increase would occur in 2006 (subway to $1.25). Commuter rail pass fares would also go up, though the details are not yet clear. Other changes in the MBTA funding would also occur, to help alleviate the current $800 million deficit. Even at the above levels, fares would be among the least expensive in the country.
Second, AMTRAK currently has contracts with MBTA Commuter Rail to operate the trains, do track maintenance, and maintain the trains. The latter contract was just awarded to a lower bidder, Bay State Transit Services (joint venture of Boise Locomotive & Herzog Transit Services) for $175.5 million, $116 million less than AMTRAK's bid. Two other bidders, Bombardier and MassRail, were between these two. Bay State claims they can do the job with 300 vs. AMTRAK's 500+ employees; the union of course if not happy. This is a highly charged, political issue, and there's more to come. The contract for AMTRAK to operate the trains and do the trackwork will be put out to bid in the near future as well.
Today wasn't all bad. At Seashore this morning I operated Third Avenue Railway System 631, and during one move, had it within bumper distance of IND R4-7 800/1440 :-)
Interesting info, Todd. Looks like the MBTA is slowly catching up to the NYC fare. One question though...will the fares on the "D" line go up also...I pay $1 to go inbound from Resevoir. -Nick
Privitization in the land of the Kennedys? Seems like it. The only difference is since MBTA was already contracting with a federal agency, they won't have to fire their own employees, just AMTRAKs.
I'm not surprised that a private company can operate more efficiently than a government agency. On the other hand, I have my doubts that a government that is incapable of hiring productive employees is somehow capable of hiring a good contractor. The problems are the same. All I can say is, BEWARE THE LOW BIDDER! They often cost the most in the long run.
Regardless of what happeneds with the MBTA fare structure, it would be nice if the MBTA provided a monthly bus/subway pass for those with the "Commonwealth of Massachusetts TRANSPORTATION ACCESS PASS".
Actually, Andres...you can buy a subway/bus pass if you want to shell out $46 each month. Of course, with me being at college, I get a 25% discount...so it would only cost me $34.50. Most schools only get an 11% discount, but my school has a high amount of commuters.-Nick
You said it! You get what you pay for.
It's interesting that there apparently wasn't any garantee of union jobs in the old contract.
Here in NYC the TWU would be part of the deal, which would make it much harder to come in with a much lower bid.
Hi from Binghamton Univ.
Mr t__:^)
What is OPTO -- sounds like some evil plot to understaff the subway so the fat cats in senior management can justify their obscene salaries. Also, what does the acronym OPTO stand for
One Person Train Operation.
When is the next field trip ???
Hey Moe, (I've always wanted to say that)
The field trips aren't regularly scheduled things... When the next one is planned you'll see discussion of it here, most likely a week or so in advance to give everyone sufficient notice.
-Dave
Does any one there have info. about METRO......Car info Ext????/
The Washington DC Metro Page has information regarding the Metro rolling stock. They have 766 cars in operation. Click on the above link to view this page.
Wayne
A bunch of us were waiting for the G/R train at Roosevelt Ave in Queens only to be greeted by unpleasant but VERY missing service signs and a PA announcement to that effect. Why wasn't this posted inside the tollbooth also as many others do? No signs, no PA message for 20 mins later and lots of us late for work having to take the E/F to 71st then double back. What a pain !!
red and white posters are posted to inform regarding service diversions/disruptions located through out most subway stations usually near subway maps or as they're called Passenger Information Centers. They're usually located close to Token booths or soon to be called Station Service centers(or something i've heard). For most part 95% of riders do not bother to read these and find out at last moment. When information is posted in the booth and say you are not purchasing token/metrocard folks just walk on by....
Well, there wasn't any red and white posters and all of us had to listen to the PA announcer which is quite impossible because it's inaudible.
While aboard an 179 St-bound F train, we arrived at Roosevelt Ave and people got off to wait for a local to Forest Hills. The conductor made NO announcements indicating that there are no R trains and that all trains are going express to Forest Hills. But the platform PA system made that annoying recorded announcement of a lady saying "uptown trains are running express." Most people didn't really pay attention or understood what it meant, because it is so vague and inapplicable to this line. I mean I can understand if that was used in Manhattan, but what does "uptown trains" have to do with Queens. Would it kill them to make a recording saying, "Queens-bound trains are running express?"
And one other thing, does anyone know how this new PA system and LCD signs work? Where and how do they type in the texts on the LCD displays on the platform? Does each line have a central control of the LCD signs? How does the voice announcements work? Can some one recording a certain message like, "Attention ladies and gentelmen, all Queens-bound trains are operating express from Roosevelt Ave to Continental Ave. For local stations, transfer at Continental Ave for a Manhattan-bound E or F train making all local stops to Manhattan," and play it each time a train pulls in?
When I work in Queens ( as little as posible) I have this problem all the time. People get used to the service diversions all the time, and after being screwed a few times, they don't trust signs or annuncements.
So now I get a line of 10 people at my window. All with similar questions. No matter that I inputted the special side sign code that says "EXPRESS" only, or "LOCAL" only and nothing else.
They have no faith in the system, so they all want individual attention. I would like to give it to them. They paid their fare, and deserve it. But unfortunatly I have to keep the train rolling. So I answer 2 or 3 and then I say "follow him" or "ask him, I just explained it"
It's not somthing I enjoy. What's really needed are platform personnel. But I aint holding my breath.
All comes back to my main point about the TA. It's not about quality, or service. Only what's cheapest. "Damn the fare paying passenger. They have to ride any way. What else are they going to do?"
I can hear Frank Corral right now in Pelham 1-2-3: "Screw the g&%$#$% passengers! What the hell do they expect for their lousy $1.50 - service?"
There is a caption in Subway Cars of the BMT beneath an interior photo of a BMT standard carrying revenue passengers: "Riders generally knew where they were going and preferred a quiet ride." It may have had to do with an experimental PA system which was tried on a handful of BMT standards. My, my, how times have changed.
I understand signs were not posted. Only the suits at Jay St, can answer for that! The switch leaving Continental Ave., which the G and R need to use to relay for their next trip is out of service for weekend work. The G does not run out there on weekends so they can operate OPTO between Court Sq. and Brooklyn. The R was being turned at 57/7 in Manhattan. Announcements are supposed to be made by the towerman at Roosevelt Ave. as each E & F come in as well as by the crew on the trains. The R could have ran in Queens via the express track to Union Tpke. relayed north of the station, ran lite back to Continental Ave. and provided normal southbound service. Obviously , the TA didn't want the E F & R all operating on the same tracks at the same time.
The token booth is now called--drumroll:
Station Service Booth.
as for train delays: every week every fulltime booth gets a liost of all G.O.s effecting the system. You can always ask your friendly station agent (especially when there is no line)for any disruptions involving a particular line.
I think the new name for the token booth is not going to last. Heck, the names BMT, IRT and IND haven't disappeared yet and the token booth is just about as synonymous with the subway as the 3 divisions .....
--Mark
I can identify with this. On Saturday, I was waiting for a friend at Lexington on the 'N/R', when I noticed an inordinate number of 'N's passing through, but no 'R's, not to mention an increasingly large and irate crowd of people waiting. Finally, I noticed someone asking an Astoria-bound 'N' conductor if there was any problem with the 'R', only then to be told about the service disruption.
Several people went ballistic for good reason:
-They had been waiting up to an hour for an 'R' to Queens;
-No signs of any kind on the platform notifying us of this change (but loads of signs about the Williamburgh closure which most people waiting at Lexington/59 could not care less about);
-NONE of the conductors of the many 'N's that had passed bothered to make any announcements along the lines of "No 'R' to Queens; take this to Queensboro Plaza for the '7' to 74th", etc.
So, who takes responsibility for this? If the 'N' conductors KNOW there's no 'R', why should we have to ASK them? Shouldn't they be making announcements, especially in the absence of any signs OR mentions of this on WINS? I asked several other conductors why THEY weren't making announcements and usually received a curt "Not their job; why dont'cha ask?; you shouldn't have been waiting this long."
Yes, people SHOULD use their heads and make other arrangements, but the onus should be on the TA to advise the PASSENGERS, not letting them stand there waiting for trains that aren't running!
Conversations broke out among some of the angered masses. We found out that one woman got fired right over the phone when she contacted her boss to tell her she was delayed. If she had known there was no 'R' to Queens, she would have immediately gone another way. At least two other person were late for a wedding and funeral.
I called the TA Customer Disservice department this morning to ask these questions, was switched around several times, and then cut off. When I attempted to contact the alleged station manager to ask why there were no signs posted, I ran into voice mail.
Good job, TA! No signs OR announcements of any kind! You're batting 1.000!
P.S: My friend was late because there was no notification at Steinway Street of lack of 'R' service, either!
"So, who takes responsibility for this? If the 'N' conductors KNOW there's no 'R', why should we have to ASK them? Shouldn't they be making announcements, especially in the absence of any signs OR mentions of this on WINS? I asked several other conductors why THEY weren't making announcements and usually received a curt "Not their job; why dont'cha ask?; you shouldn't have been waiting this long.""
But you in turn expect the N Conductors to know that there are no signs posted about this change in service? They expect the signs to be there every bit as much as you do.
Shouldn't they be making sure that you know the train isn't running? It seems sort of fundamental that that information be conveyed to the passenger. This means a little bit of redundancy in getting info to the passenger.
Would a worker for an airline who responded "It's not my job to the question "why didn't you tell me this flight was cancelled?" keep his job?
The token booth has a white marker board behind where the agent sits, that will contain handwritten bulletins of disruptions due to repair work or other emergencies. If the agent has enought time he/she will write up a detailed list of alternate routes and what not. However this may not be reliable all the time.
I recommend checking out the MTA web site @ www.mta.nyc.ny.us, click on the Subways section and then the Service Notices button. There is a fairly comphrehensive listing of service changes for the upcoming week due to track work or whatever. Click on the line symbol and you'll be all set. Look up the subway line you're using before heading out and allow a few extra minutes for delays. I do this all the time and it saves me a lot of headaches and grief and it's less annoying than calling the info line and not getting thru.
Since the website has been put up, it's been a godsend when I'm trying to plan out my trip. It's fun being in the know about this stuff while dodging track work on the line.
Yeah, but most times it's about a week behind reality.
-Hank
When was the last time the SI Ferry was suspended due to weather. at 408am todasy, WCBS reported ferry service suspended due to dense fog. I thoufght the boats had fog horns and radar?
They do. No reason for them to suspend service, although in fog they do run slower (about 35 mins instead of 20 mins) Last time I recall the ferry being suspended for weather was in 1993, when we had that nasty noreaster that flooded much of Staten Island. The problem wasn't specifically because of the weather, but the storm surge pushed the water level up high enough that the ferry deck was too high for the lower bridge to meet the boat. Since the lower bridge is how they moor the boat....
-Hank
I can not believe they canceled the boat due to fog. Many Many a time I rode the Ferry in much worse fog. You couldn't see the front of the boat from the main cabin doors. We would slow crawl, power back the engines and sound the horn. The Captain would listen to th echo, power up and crawl further along.
When we got near NY Side, the whole crew was on the front main deck and I believe BOTH captains were in the wheelhouse (each trip one captain is supposed to rest). The would sound the horn, you would hear the echo, sound the horn. The whole crew (exception of the engine crew) were looking for the flashin strobe lights that are at the end of the pier (just as bright as plane landing signals). When of the crew saw the stobe pointed out to the wheelhouse and we landed 5 minutes later.
That has been my experience on the Ferry in the Fog and I rode it almost every day when I lived in Staten Island (1984-1995).
I rode the Staten Island Ferry some time ago in heavy fog. In addition to the Captain the Assistant Captain and two deckhands were in the pilot house acting as lookouts. An additional crewman was stationed at the forward end of the upper deck and could relay sightings verbally to the captain. If the Titanic had stationed someone on the bow of the ship to act as a lookout she might have made port.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In addition to the men in the Pilot House and on the upper deck, there was probably another D/H on the main deck. The best view in the fog is down low...
Of course the big problems were when it was foggy and raining so hard that the radar was useless...
Before the boats had SERIOUS radar, the American Legion was struck by a Norweigian cargo ship, the Hoegh Orchid, May 6, 1981; my sister's birthday.
-Hank
And she survived! I remember seeing pictures of the ferry with one side (the port side, I believe) stove in, the lower level ceiling haning down etc. American Legion (built in 1965) is still running, correct?
Wayne
Back in 1963 or so, the Verazzano also had a fog-related run-in with the boat, but was able to limp into dock at Staten Island before sinking to the bottom (not a very deep one BTW) at the gate. I remember a book on the history of the Staten Island Ferry had a photo of the boat resting with the water level just about even with the vehiclar deck.
Poor old Verrazano! I remember her well; I took Rosemary my lady friend for a ride on her back on Dec. 7 1975 and we first kissed on her bow. It was freezing cold, foggy withal, and the "V" was blowing her horn in the murk. Now she's a ghost ship somewhere, else she's been scrapped.
Isn't the waterline just below the level of the vehicular deck anyway?
Wayne
Verrazzano drew about 19' of water and the main deck is about 4-5 feet above that.On Sept 23,1963 she was rammed by "Poling Bros No 8" a small coastal tanker and holed below the waterline. In those days the harbor was a much busier place and the Coast Guard maintained very large ocean going tugs at the Battery Park Maritime Building ready to steam at a moments notice. When the emergency signal was sounded on the ship's whistle two of these tugboats came to her assistance and kept her afloat by virtually lifting her bow above the water. They pushed her to Staten Island were she sank in her slip. The water came up to but did not cover the vehicle deck. The only injuries occured when she bumped the slip at Staten Island and a few passengers were thrown off their feet. She passed to private ownership and until recently was tied up offshore at Tompkinsville. Her owner has since moved her but I don't know where.
Larry,RedbirdR33
If you look back in history, you are hard pressed to find a ferryboat that has been in as much mischef as the F/B AMERICAN LEGION. In 1977, under the direction of Capt. Irving Satler, she hit the seawall at Battery Park. Capt. Satler retired shortly after the incident. If I recall correctly, the blame was put on the fog and the lack of radar in the operating end.
The second mishap occured in 1983 when she was hit by a Norweigen freighter. Capt. Joe Zaccone was found to be partially at fault. The radar was (again) out in the NY End, and she was being turned around to do the trip from the SI End. This mishap was one one reasons that the NY Vessel Traffic Service (NY VTS) was started. Granted, NY VTS took many years to start afterward (see budget cuts in previous postings).
According to my parents (who still live on SI), the F/B VERRAZZANO has been moved - under her own power - to South America to ferry passengers.
Of course, if people choose to, we can also discuss the mishaps on the F/B SAMUEL I. NEWHOUSE that nearly caused her to sink...or the mechanical difficulties on the F/B ANDREW J. BARBERI that caused her to have half her superstructure removed to replace a very large cog...
Chip
Chip: What exactly was wrong with the Andy B?
Larry,RedbirdR33
There was a problem about 8 or 9 years ago - maybe longer - with the Volth-Schneider propulsion system. If you're not familiar with that system, here's a quick run down of it:
Instead of having a screw prop on each end of the boat with a rudder for steering control, there is a cycloid prop on each end, with fins on them that varry to control direction. Of special note tith this type of system is that the boat can move sideways - yes actually sideways! - or can pivot on center. There is control to both ends in each pilot house.
There is a VERY large cog that sits on top of the prop. The one on the SI end of the BARBERI was flaking apart. The term that I heard used was "turning into corn flakes". That led her to be operated at much reduced speeds, and even led to the other boats passing her during rush hours.
The repair was completed at Cadells Dry Dock. To replace the cog, they needed to take the better part of the SI End of the boat off.
BTW, the BARBERI, NEWHOUSE, AUSTEN, and NOBLE have this system. That's why the hitting the rack is limited on those boats. Another interesting tidbit is that if the AUSTEN and NOBLE didn't have this system, they would not be able to dock at the current slips - the boats are too small to use the traditional kiss the rack and aim to the bridge.
Chip
Chip said something about a large cog sitting on top of the propellor
on the SI ferry boats with the Volth-Schneider propulsion system.
There is a room on the lower deck. The room has a door labeled "Propulsion Gear Space". Is that it? It has a catwalk with a monitoring well in the center. I say it's about 25-30 feet in diameter. What is that cog used for? Does it turn the prop?
During one of the Fleet Days in NY Harbor a special Ferry trip for some group had the Newhouse out. They were spinning the boat around it's center point. Looked like fun!!
Captains forget about it though, since the Barb and Newhouse are still kissing the rack and bouncing to the bridge more often than not >GThe worst part of the Austen and Noble are the passanger aprons, and that steep walk (I hit my head at 6'8") to the deck.
The BARBERI and NEWHOUSE are clumsy boats to handle. One of the most important things to be able to watch is the main deck of the boat when docking - it lets you know when to back, when to steer, etc. You can't see the end of the main deck on these two boats! This look down is too steep. The city's solution was to built what can best be described as a wooden milk crate to look down.
Chip
Chip: Thank you for the explanation. I know that the Barberi Class has a great deal of vibration which is especially noticeable on the lower deck.
Larry,RedbirdR33
what about the kenndy? is it still in service?
Chip: All three Kennedy Class boats are still in service along with the two Barberis and the two Austens.
Larry,RedbirdR33
"According to my parents (who still live on SI), the F/B VERRAZZANO has been moved - under her own power - to South America to ferry passengers. "
The last item that the SI Advance printed about the Verrazano had it being moved to the Brooklyn Navy yard under tow when its mooring site in Staten Island was demolished. Recently there was mention of have it taken to Japan to serve as a floating NYC attraction catering to the 1000's of Japanese tourists heading to NY
All the way to SOUTH AMERICA under her (his) own power? That is one tough old boat! God Bless our old Verrazano, and the Cornelius G. KOLFF and Pvt. Joseph F. MERRELL too. All from the class of '51.
I remember those boats very well, commuting from Manhattan to SI frequently between '73 and '77.
Wayne
Both the 'Pvt Joseph F Merrill' and the 'Cornelius G Kolff' are still with us,being used as floating dormitories at Rikers Island. The Merrill has been renamed 'Vernon C Bain' but I believe the Kolff retains her own name.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I rmember going to day camp back in the 60s on SI, and the one thing about those boats, espcially the Merrill and the Verrazzano -- they could haul! One trip across on the V took only 18 minutes, way faster than the older boats, though they didn't have the wood-panelled elegance of the Knickerbocker and the Dongan Hills, which were retired when the Kennedy class boats arrived.
And let us not forget such antiquities as the Mary MURRAY, the Miss NEW YORK, the Alexander HAMILTON etc. Poor Mary, stuck in the mud of the Raritan River, rusting away...at least Miss NY has gotten a new lease on life.
Wayne
Washington State Ferries had a boat (The M.V. Olympic) which was originally built and operated in Baltimore in 1925. In 1958 it sailed all the way around Cape Horn, thence up to the Seattle area, and it was in service until 1994. It is now under private ownership and rests in the WSF yard at Eagle Harbor, WA. The reason it did not
go through the Panama Canal was that it was too wide.
Not Baltimore, but the Chesapeake Bay. When the Bay Bridge opened in 1952 the ferryboats were sold to Washington State, sailed through the Panama Canal (First ferryboats to do so, AFAIK) to Seattle.
"Not Baltimore, but the Chesapeake Bay. When the Bay Bridge opened in 1952 the ferryboats were sold to Washington State, sailed through the Panama Canal (First ferryboats to do so, AFAIK) to Seattle."
There's a plaque on the MV Olympic that says it had to sail all the way around Cape Horn, and also that it was built for the City of Baltimore in 1938. There is mention of the trip around Cape Horn in the book "Ferryboats: A Legend on Puget Sound" by M. S. Kline and G. A. Bayless.
As to whether it sailed around Cape Horn or went through the Straits of Magellan, I don't know -- I'm just going by what is mentioned in the book and the plaque on the boat when I sailed on it for all of 45 minutes from Whidbey Island to Port Townsend, WA in 1989. The MV Olympic is now under private ownership and has been out of service since 1993; it is stored at the WSF docks at Eagle Harbor. Reportedly, the owner wants to make it into a floating maritime museum but has not had too much luck in raising funding. (An all too familiar story, unfortunately.)
According to the "Ferryboat" book, it is a diesel direct drive type propulsion system; the way it sounded when I was on it in 1989, it sounded like it had all of one cylinder, with all the chugging it did. It seemed to chug just as much to remain fast to the dock as it did while underway, and it wasn't that fast either.
Oh well, back to subways....isn't that where we are supposed to be?
"Washington State Ferries had a boat (The M.V. Olympic) which was originally built and operated in Baltimore in 1925. In 1958 it sailed all the way around Cape Horn, thence up to the Seattle area, and it was in service until 1994. It is now under private ownership and rests in the WSF yard at Eagle Harbor, WA. The reason it did not
go through the Panama Canal was that it was too wide."
You say it went around Cape Horn. Why didn't it use the Strait of Magellan.
Wayne: The American Legion is still running but she has a permanent port side list. She ran aground off Governors Island once and also rammed the seawall at Battery Park.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Willie Mays turned 50 on that same day.
That's one of the reasons why I'd rather take the subway out to 86th Street in Bklyn and hop the S53 bus after 12AM. I may be spending an extra 30-45 minutes, but the upside is that there is about 2 or 3 all-night delicatessens and 1 newsstand outside the subway station on 4th Ave at 86th. If my train doesn't meet up with the S53, I can grab a bagel and soda and chow down while I'm waiting and it can be done on a free transfer too.
Jeez, the idea of spending an extra hour or 2 waiting for a boat in that hellhole ferry terminal @ Whitehall St. with the skells, crackheads, and pyschos that take up residence there after midnight gives me the willies. I had to do that once while returning home from a U2 concert at Giants Stadium a few years back. It was not fun. Of course if you pitch the idea of having a few cops stationed there to keep an eye on things during the overnights, you'd have both the liberals and the PBA screaming bloody murder.
They do have cops stationed there, but since they're Staten Island cops, they don't give a shit unless a 'statisic' crime is being committed.
-Hank
Yesterday am I rode the PATH to Newark and saw grafiti "PATH Strike in 2000" on two separate posters . Are the PATH operating people unhappy and talking strike or is it just grafiti
Can you tell me a little about the history of subway station 74th street & Roosevelt avenue in jackson Heights Queens.
I heard a second station was supposed to be there. I was at that station a couple of months ago and did not see any evidence of this.......
The station is there. Go upstairs and exit the fare control and walk towardsthe East. Go past the grilled off area and the police station( gate is locked)and you'll go down a long passageway before you come out on the second station's platform.
NOTE: The area is closed to the public and I included the description just as information. DO NOT enter the closed areas- you ill be arrested!
see disused and abandoned stations on this site for a more complete description--this was a phase II or Second System IND item see also Second System on this sit also NY Times article in Nov 96 about an official tour which visited it. e-mail me directly if you want the date of times article
I have a copy of that very article in the Times. It also has a photo of one of the 2nd Ave. line tunnel sections, along with a map of some of the proposed lines.
Recent threads regarding the pros and cons of Systemwide OPTO of transit sytems, subtalkers maybe interested in the following dates that London Underground lines operated fully OPTO from:
26th March 1984 Hammersmith & City Line
22nd October 1984 Circle Line
13th May 1985 East London Line
04th November 1985 District Line
29th September 1986 Metropolitan Line
31st August 1987 Piccadilly Line
28th March 1988 Jubilee Line
2Oth November 1989 Bakerloo Line
20th February 1995 Central Line
(01st April 1994 Waterloo & City Line)
(Victoria Line operates Automatic Train operation since new)
Northern Line STILL CREW OPERATED
.
Regards
Rob :^)
I was in East New York today and I noticed that A service has now been expanded to include weekends. Is this part of a larger plan to reinstate express service on routes where it has been previously canceled? (F-train, 1/9 train, etc)?
I hope so. It's about time, eh?
- Jordan
Beleave me there is no Express service planned for the No. 1/9 Line above 96 Street. The Skip Stop service is not going anytime soon. But if you want to get a Express ride from 96 Street and 145 Street ride the No.1 Line on weekends. There been Contruction almost every weekend with either the Uptown or downtown trains going Express.
A Train service on weekends is part of the increased service on the Brooklyn Fulton Street line to offset the closure of the Williamsburg Bridge to J, M and Z trains the next 5-6 months. I don't know if weekend A express and C local service will continue once the Willy B is open to trains again.
The change on the A and C weekend and evening service is a permanent change.
Makes a good amount of sense to keep the A Weekend Express operational on a permanent basis. Fulton St-Far Rock segment is pretty heavily traveled with the usual walk-in trade from adjoining neighborhoods and toss in patronage from the Lefferts Blvd Branch, the connecting H shuttle to Rock Park, the J and L transfers at east NY and now free transfers from connecting busses from southern Blkyn and SE Queens, it's not uncommon to have a typical A train at SRO conditions on the weeekends these days. Once the beaches open up this summer ithe A will probably get even busier.
Other than the D and Q lines, I think another good candidate for an upgrade in service during the weekends would be the IRT in Brookyn. I really would like to see the #5 extended south of Bowling Green out to Utica Ave during the weekends and during the Midday. As it stands the #4 is pretty maxed out in terms of space when the #5 isn't running to Brooklyn. With the heavy ridership the line has along with connecting traffic to the LIRR depot at Atlantic Ave plus the transfers to the D B N and R in Brooklyn, this should be considered.
Yes and no. Yes, express service is expanding where it can, but there are many areas where at present peak car requirements, track issues, or sometimes community (i.e. local station) issues preclude expresses. In addition to the expansion of evening and institution of weekend Fulton St express (I actually dont believe that this service ever did exist previously, by the way), express service has been expanded on the Flushing line to include middays, and a bit later in the evenings.
The Fulton St. line saw express service only during rush hours prior to 1989, except for the JFK Express. I don't know exactly when it was first implemented, but initially A trains ran express throughout the 50s and early 60s. In 1966 or thereabouts, E trains took over the express service, then in 1973, A trains were once again running express during rush hours. In 1976, the CC took over for the E, then once the R-10s were retired (sob!), the C began running to Brooklyn during weekday midday hours and regular A express service began.
The Fulton St. line is a good example IND foresight, although it's possible it may have been looked upon as IND overbuilding at one time. When ridership increased to the point where regular express service was deemed necessary, implementing it was a straightforward matter.
I just had to comment. There is one part of your statement concerning R-10s retiring before fulltime weekday Brooklyn service began that is incorrect. "C" trains provided full daytime service to Brooklyn starting December of 1988. The R-10s (granted, only the rebuilt R-10s) provided this service until September of 1989. In fact, during the weekends, when the "C" ran from 145 Street to World Trade Center (again beginning 12/88), R-10's were used in this service as well until March of 1989 when weekend "C" service was replaced by R-38s temporarily until the R-30s arrived.
I stand corrected. I must admit I wasn't sure exactly when C trains began running to Brooklyn during midday hours, and whether or not it coincided with the last of the R-10s being retired. Thanks for clarifying that.
Keep dreaming, my friend. It's nice to imagine sometimes.
That A service in Brooklyn: kiss it good bye once the bridge is done. Not something I heard. Just based on knowing how these people operate.
There is a set amount of crews. TA will NOT hire any more, dispite the increased riding. So once the bridge is done, those crews will again be needed on the other lines(J,M) At the present time, there is a need for extra personnel, so the TA did hire. But then through attrition, the numbers will come back down.
Increased service costs. And by their logic, it costs more than what they want to pay. All that increased ridership... they think it's temporary. It's a fluke to them, and they don't wan't to get left holding the bag when ridership drops.
I have to agree.
No matter who complains to who, they will never increase D weekend service or start a "Q" express on weekends. The D is SRO (Standing Room Only) Saturday and Sundays late into the night. Standard answer is there isn't enough ridership to justify weekend express service.
I'll just have to stick to the Yankee Specials on the weekend...
This was first proposed 4 years ago, and did include the alternate F express in Brooklyn. Because of Pataki's cuts, both were canceled, but now the A exp. was now prompted by the Willy B construction. Thanfully, it is said to be permanent.
I would like to know on what service changes are in store for the 63rd St/Queens Blvd Connection what the connection opens in 2001.
1)First, what changes are plan for weekday, weekday evenings, weekends & late night hours.
2)Finally, where will the B train terminate during weekday evenings & weekends after the connection opens.
Please post on subtalk. I would greatly appreciate it.
Sincerely,
Michael
1. No decision has been made.
2. No decision has been made.
Weekday origin-destination surveys were taken during 1998 and are now being evaluated. A final report describing weekday and weekend surveys is due this year.
3. Why are you signing your name as "Michael" when the "Posted by" says your name is John?
David
[I would like to know on what service changes are in store for the 63rd St/Queens Blvd Connection what the connection opens in 2001.
1)First, what changes are plan for weekday, weekday evenings, weekends & late night hours.
2)Finally, where will the B train terminate during weekday evenings & weekends after the connection opens.
Please post on subtalk. I would greatly appreciate it.
Sincerely,
Michael]
I just did a whole thread on this. Scan back a few days.
Oh, and please call me Erik. The title's just a gag.
Spent a good part of Saturday in Philadelphia riding SEPTA. Some observations:
(1) I attempted to buy a $5 daypass at the Frankford Terminal (Bridge/Pratt) sales office. Unfortunately, the clerk had none in stock, even though the sign on the outside clearly listed $5 day passes on sale. He told me to ask the cashier in an adjacent booth what to do. The cashier was a gentlemen and let me on gratis when I told him I woud buy a day pass when I got to Center City, which I indeed did (at the SEPTA museum store). A kudo for SEPTA!
(2) Did a RT (City Hall to Pattison and back) on the Broad Street subway. City Hall with its maroon tiles looks definitely like an IND station. Noticed an obviously unused lower level platform at Pattison - I assume this was built for sports events. Has it ever been used as a station, or is it used to store equipment?
(3) Did a RT (15/Market to 58/Woodland and back) on the #11 subway surface route. Cars are quiet and comfortable despite being 18 years old. The 40th street portal is a great spot for photos.
(4) Returning to Bridge/Pratt, boarded an M-4 Market/Frankford El train at 11th St. At 5th St. we were wrong-railed due to a passenger having a medical problem on the eastbound train ahead of us. Customers were walked over to our train on the westbound platform. We were put back on the EB track at Spring Garden. Nice job of handling an emergency that might have been a bigger problem.
Riding back to Bridge/Pratt, noticed an abandoned rail r.o.w. between Hungtingdon and Somerset Stations. Anyone know what it once was?
Are any "almond joy" cars still running on the Market-Frankford, or are they now all OOS? Saw a few in the yard beyond Bridge/Pratt.
Summary - SEPTA is still a fascinating and unique rail system, typical in that sense of the older US rail operations. M-4 cars performed well and are quiet and comfortable. Ridership on Saturday did not seem to be at the same level as New York - trains were generally empty by New York standards.
The Pattison lower level has been a topic on this service several times. It gets used very infrequently, usually only for big sporting events. I've been in this city all my life, used the subway many times to the stadiums and I've never taken a train into or out of the lower level.
The subway surface K-cars are still very well kept and smooth runners. 40th is a great spot for photos.
The abandoned rail r/w between Huntingdon and Somerset is the ex-Reading line which served Port Richmond. It was up to 12-14 tracks wide at several points at one time not too long ago. A diesel facility was also located a couple of blocks to the east at Frankford Ave. There were several coal yards on the Lehigh Ave side of the tracks which had deliveries by train (from the yards, trucks carried it to homes for heating). Now the line is down to one track and is a poor shadow of itself.
Budd cars (Almond Joys) are still on the property and can usually be found in service during the week. SEPTA has officially noted that all weekend service is provided with M-4's but you can usually find a train of Budds or two on the line then. They are becoming more and more scarce, as about 140 of the 220 M-4's are on the property. I saw 1151-52 in a train on a trip I made last week. SEPTA is now saying that the Budds should be gone by the end of this year.
Weekend ridership is fairly low compared to several years back. The strike of last summer is still hurting a bit. Also, for TransPass users, Regional Rail can be used instead within the City, so many of those in the Far Northeast can avoid the long bus ride to Bridge St and opt for commuter rail instead.
That's how I'm able to do my railtripping.
I did amother trip on Saturday, taking the R2 to Wilmington, and the R3 to West Trenton and the R8 to Fox Chase(@ Fox Chase, I saw the bump blocks and the tracks overgrown with weeds. So sad).
I came home via the El and had a delay at the station when there was a small fire on the tracks(a spark from the third rail ignited some trash).
Perhaps you forgot that the City/County of Philadelphia's population is only about 1.584+ million residents, versus the 7.321 million of New York City. So it stands to reason that Philly's subways are far more likely to be less occupied than their equivalents in NYC.
I don't know.
Given the relative sizes of each system(come on, try comparing NYC's to Philadelphia-c'mon, I dare you:)) it's not unreasonable to think that the trains would have substantially less people.
This city is known to be a ghost town when it's not during sunlight on a weekday. And Philly's population is now in the neighborhood of 1.47 million. Lost 10% since the '90 census.
Are we following Detroit's lead?
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say we're a ghost town or we're getting close to Detroit. Listen to the highway reports on KYW on the weekends - the Schuylkill, I-95, 202, 42, etc are all jammed. I experienced it firsthand this past Saturday with the regatta taking East River (er, Kelly) Drive out of commission, West River closing for recreation, and a mess on the Schuylkill. Since the strike last year, it's only gotten worse. Many discretionary riders have abandoned SEPTA and, at SEPTA's prices, they may not come back. I'm surprised when I find myself on the system on weekends (not a usual occurrence) and I see how empty buses, trains, etc are. There's a message here. You won't find Center City deserted so people are getting there and back somehow. If you try to find a parking space you'll quickly find out how they're travelling.
The Phila region is doing well economically, thank you. Yes, the city itself is purportedly losing population faster than any of its top ten brethren but transportation isn't pushing them out. It could be much better but the level of service is a natural reaction to the level of ridership. In my growing-up days in the late 60's and early 70's I can remember buses with standing loads entering and leaving Center City and el trains packed full of people. With many non-Center City routes on wide (20-30 minute) headways during daylight on Saturdays, is there an incentive to ride? At $1.60 a pop, plus transfers, would you? Of course, ride the subway-surface cars and you'll find lots of patrons, even at late hours. Surprisingly, though, check out the cab stand at 37th & Spruce - Univ of Penna students who want to go to South St (normally a one-seat ride on the 40 bus) are using those cabs well to make the trip in groups and split the cab fare rather than waiting for and riding slow buses. Go figure - when I was a student at the same place, the subway-surface cars (which call right at this intersection) were the way to go, and that was way back when you had to pay for a transfer to the el.
I wonder does SEPTA:
A: Knows about this but can't do anything.
B: Knows about this and doesn't care to do anything
C: Doesn't know at all.
I'm not sure which 'this' is your reference, but in my experiences with SEPTA, I'm sorry to say the answer is most likely B. SEPTA, in my opinion, has unfortunately given up on City Transit and desires to cater to the suburbanites. This is why I made the statement about 'gold plating' on the Regional Rail - there are many opportunities to be creative and constructive on the CTD but don't expect SEPTA to do it. As a customer, I have a hard time accepting this, but the service levels, vehicle conditions, and employee attitude speak volumes.
[Surprisingly, though, check out the cab stand at 37th & Spruce - Univ of Penna students who want to go to South St (normally a one-seat ride on the 40 bus) are using those cabs well to make the trip in groups and split the cab fare rather than waiting for and riding slow buses. Go figure - when I was a student at the same place, the subway-surface cars (which call right at this intersection) were the way to go, and that was way back when you had to pay for a transfer to the el.]
Bob, that's the difference between our generation and their generation. It is four generations of car culture. If you can't own a care, take a cab. What is a streetcar anyway?
-Jim K.
Chicago
I often find myself at the alma mater and, even though it's only a generation, the difference seems like more than that. I'll be celebrating 20 years out of there in a couple of days and the place is very different from when I was there in many ways. Of course, when I visit, I STILL use the subway-surface cars!
What is a streetcar anyway?
Interestingly enough, that was the same reaction I had from some of the younger members of my team when I told them I was taking off early to attend the National Trolley Meet a couple of weekends ago. They are all too typical of the current crop of computer professionals - good programmers raised on mass media with no sense of history, ethics, or knowledge of English grammar, and who don't care about anything that doesn't directly affect the amount of money they have to spend.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I take slight offense at that, after all there are a lot of computer professionals that don't fit into that pigeonhole. I bet not too many people here know what I majored in or what I do for a living now, for example.]
And given the recent "light rail" trend, I can understand the lack of understanding of the word "streetcar" -- most light rail systems are eliminating street running and only a few cities have traditional streetcars/trolleys nowadays. I think most people would have a concept of what light rail is and be able to identify from a lineup of train types which one is the light rail car.
Ah, but I have a good one for you folks ...
I went to a DOT/TA meeting in December and took mass transit from College Point to it in lower Manhattan.
I arrived a few minutes late and apologized that I was delayed waiting for a Slant 40 ... they looked at me like I had two heads. I didn't elaborate.
Mr t__:^)
I'd tell them I was delayed waiting for an R-38.
Anyway, I could think of a few more items which would raise a similar question from today's younger generation:
What's an LP?
What's a turntable/record player?
What's an 8-track?
What's a rotary telephone?
What's a typewriter?
"What's an LP?
What's a turntable/record player?
What's an 8-track?
What's a rotary telephone?
What's a typewriter?"
The difference between the above and a streetcar is that all of the above have been superseded by superior technology (the CD, the push-button phone, the computer and printer) while the streetcar still serves a vital purpose and is still used every day, only now we call it "light rail". (^: They still build streetcars, while nobody builds any of the above (or not in significant mass-production numbers anyway).
Besides, so what if people born who grew up in the 1980s or later aren't familiar with outdated technology? It's not the same thing at all as the oft-repeated "schoolchildren today think Alaska is in Asia" or "only two out of ten could name a Supreme Court justice" pseudo-statisitics. YOUR parents or grandparents could have gotten the same types of questions from your generation with:
"What's a starter crank?"
"What's a gramophone?"
"What's a Morse key?"
"What's a fountain pen?"
You're right. My father, to this day, still says (in Lithuanian), "Unhook the door" when he means "Unlock the door". He grew up on a farm and I know what he means, so I leave it be.
I also had a college professor, who wasn't exactly a senior citizen back then, who referred to a pen as a quill.
Then there's the running board and the spittoon.
As for light rail vehicles, I don't feel they're referred to as such because of their weight. Our LRVs in Denver weigh in at 40 tons apiece. That's New York subway car weight. There have been motorists who thought they had a chance going one-on-one with an LRV. Guess who won.
Ha ha
Just like the BMW i saw around a year ago. Some people think that because they have a fancy car, they are god. He figured if he floored it he could beat the Breda LRV I was riding on around a corner. He didn't. He ended up w/ a BMW sandwich, shoved off the street, onto the sidewalk like a big expensive hockey puck. The Breda didn't even notice.
Thank god no one was hurt; because that would have turned it from a really comical scene into a pointless tragedy.
Sounds like a variation on the BMT standard vs R-16 incident.
We haven't had any recent collisions between LRVs and motor vehicles in Denver, probably because motorists have gotten used to dealing with LRVs. An inebriated pedestrian was hit downtown a year or two ago.
New Orleans doesn't have LRV's ,it doesn't even have trolleys, but it is fortunate to have streetcars!
Yes, New Orleans has trolleys. But, the New Orleans trolleys are streetcars. The word 'trolley' derives from the word 'troller' which is the wheel device used to pick up the electricity on early electric streetcars. Today, the term 'trolley' is generally used to mean electic-powered, mass-transit vehicles, that use overhead collection. That's why the rubber-tired vehicles are called 'trackless trolleys.' There have been variations, of course; some of New York City's trolleys used an underground collection device in a slot in the center of the tracks so there would be no overhead wires. And most trolleys today use poles/shoes or pantographs.
But still, New Orleans' streetcars are trolleys. If you'd like to ride in one without going south, come on up to Seashore. One of the gems of our collection is NOPSI #966.
I rode on the St. Charles line while in New Orleans in 1994. Also rode on the Riverfront Trolley. Is it true that the Riverfront line is or will be regauged from standard gauge to match the 5' 2-1/2" St. Charles gauge?
It seems that in New York, the term Trolley was used almost exclusively in Brooklyn and perhaps Queens. Stopping locations were marked as Trolley Stations. My 1950s Shell map of New York City uses the term Streetcar.
When I was growing up in New York in the 1960s, my relatives and neighbors always referred to the by-then-vanished vehicles in the Bronx and Manhattan as trolleys, never streetcars. This included the conduit cars as well as the ones with poles.
Q. Is it true that the Riverfront line is or will be regauged from standard gauge to match the 5' 2-1/2" St. Charles gauge?
A. In New Orleans "trolleys" are referred to as streetcars by the natives. The Riverfront line has been regauged to 5' 2-1/2". To access the only streetcar maintenance and indoor strorage facility, Carrolton car barn, a 1/2 mile segment of double track non revenue trackage has been laid in the median of Canal Street connecting the riverfront line at the foot of Canal Street with the St. Charles line. This trackage is supposed to continue about 3 miles up Canal Street. This proposed trackage could be referred to as the 2nd Avenue subway of New Orleans because of the delays in starting construction. By the way a car barn is referred to as a "station" in New Orleans but it is not a place where passengers can board. A boarding area is a "carstop".
Thanks for the info!
I drove by the Carrolton car barn when I was there. The wide gauge looks strange if you're not used to seeing it.
[I drove by the Carrolton car barn when I was there. The wide gauge looks strange if you're not used to seeing it.]
I grew up in Philadelphia. Wide gauge doesn't look strange to me.
Jim K.
Chicago
Philadelphia used the same gauge as New Orleans. Or is it a quarter-inch less? In any case, it's certainly understandable, because you were used to seeing it.
Railroad trackage in Lithuania still seems strange to me even after having been there four times. Their railroads still use the 5-foot Russian gauge. I would think there may be some standard gauge lines put down eventually, especially if they're coming in from western Europe.
Manhattan did not technically have trolley as the current collection was in the center, below the ground, "third rail". Therefore the Shell map was correct to say "Streetcar" The outer boros used an overhead current collection system. The arm sticking up in the air is called a "trolley" hence the correct term for these cars.
The "trollybus" that runs in places like the French Quarters in New Orleans are REPLICAS of trolleys/streetcars. The tourists today can't tell the difference, even some transit agencies can't. Case in point. The annual METRO Magazine transit survey did not make it clear, but a city, such as El Paso, reported back to Metro Magazine they have three trolleybuses (in the same row as in SEPTA, MBTA, MUNI, etc), and without checking the facts, reported the findings in their survey. I wrote a nasty letter back to Metro Magazine about these "trolleybuses" and now Metro Magazine uses the word "Trolley Replicas" in their survey. At the same time some agencies west of the Rockies got the term coach and bus mixed up. Long Beach reports zero buses, but x number of coaches. Metro Magazine meant that coaches are the over the road MCI/Eagel ones and bus are the transit ones. Long Beach don't have buses, they have coaches.
Well enough of my venting. Now If I can only get the public here in the east to stop calling the cable cars of San Francisco, "Trolleys".
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
I have ridden a few of those bogus trolley buses. They run at Woodbury Commons and several other places. The manufacturer is the Molly Corporation and they refer to them as "Motorized Trolley Buses."
Larry,Redbird R33
Ooohhhh, that's a sore spot in San Francisco! I remember seeing a statement to that effect on a cable car guide in 1981. It said, in no uncertain terms:
DON'T CALL THEM TROLLEYS!
Todd...it's a big dialect thing. Someone from McKinney Ave Transit
(a historic operation in Texas) said "the streetcar is what's on
the tracks, the trolley is what's over it". I.e. "trolley" refers
only to the overhead collection system. Back east, "streetcar"
seems to refer generically to any street-running railway, be it
horse-drawn, cable, conduit or "trolley".
The "troller" Todd refers to was an unsuccessful technology that
used a little cart that rolled on top of the wire and was attached
to the car with a pair of wires, rather than the rigid, under-running
trolley pole and wheel/shoe arrangement of today. A big troller
problem was that when it dewired, it tended to come down!
Interesting thread here:
In Dayton OH "Trolley" means a Trolleybus or Trackless Trolley
Then there are those vehicles which are really buses dolled up to look like a SF Cable Car which also are referred to as trolleys.
As I see it:
Car by it self is an automobile or a single piece of rail equipment of any type.
Bus (short for omnibus: for all) is a piece of transit equipment which does not run on rails.
Streetcar is a piece of rail equipment that operated in or adjacent to the street.
A Trolley Car is a streetcar which gets its power from overhead electric wires.
A Cable Car is a streetcar which gets dragged around by a cable under the surface of the road.
A Horse Car is a streetcar which gets dragged around by one or more horses.
A Trolley is a device for getting the electric power from the overhead wire.
A Trolley Bus or Trackless Trolley is a bus which is powered by electricity taken from overhead wires.
A Replica Cable Car Body on a Truck Chassis is none of the above.
Then there is the term "Train" ...
Also, what does "light rail" mean, if anything?
For example, people in Philadelphia usually refer to their vehicles as "trolleys", while in Baltimore I've heard them called "light rail" or "trains."
The San Diego Trolley would fit your definition of trolley because it does have some street running. But is the St. Louis system also a trolley? Some people have said that light rail is defined by the fact that the vehicles are capable of street running, even if a particular system doesn't use them that way. Thus St. Louis is light rail because its cars are, by design, streetcars. (The extension to Clayton will use street running, and the existing cars can operate on the new route.) Vancouver isn't really light rail because the Skytrain cars have to be grade separated.
What, then, is the Norristown line?
The term "light rail" refers to a system that is, in effect, a cross between the old streetcar lines of yesteryear and the heavy-rail rapid transit found in some North American and many European/Asian cities. LRV's are in essence a modernised form of the old streetcar/trolley. The main thing about light rail transit is that it's cheaper to build than an equivalent heavy rail system. LRT can be built to run on streets (like the old streetcars), in underground subways (or a combination of street-level and subway, as has been done in Buffalo, New York, as well as in the California cities of San Francisco and Los Angeles), or on elevated structures.
[What, then, is the Norristown line?]
The P&W? It is a grade-seperated, third-rail, high-level platform line that really never fit into a typical category.
Jim K.
Chicago
Back in the 1960's when trolleys were just managing to hold on(there were only ten cities in the US and Canada that still had them) we use to say that there were two "Interurbans" left. These were the Norristown Line and the Chicago,South Shore and South Bend.
The Noristown Line did run between two cities,Philadelphia and Norristown and was also used at one time by the "Liberty Bell Limited" of the Lehigh Valley Rapid Tansit. There have been recent efforts to classify this as a light rail line but it stubbornly refuses to fit either into the light rail or rapid transit catergories.
The South Shore did run freight trains as a Class I railroad should but the passenger operations included street running in Michigan City . I believe there is still street running even with the new cars though this line probably leans more toward the railroad side.
How do the Illinois and Indiana folks refer to this line?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually, the Norristown cars couldn't operate in the street, so they wouldn't fit on the light rail side of the definition. Mainly this is because they operate from a third rail. It is interesting to note that the Norristown line once used some Electroliners, which had trolley poles before they came to Pennsylvania. I believe the Electroliners did use street running to enter Milwaukee.
Yes, they did. They used third rail on the 'L' and trolley pole operation the remainder of the way to Milwaukee, both on the private right-of-way and in the street.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The P&W is a very unique operation. I consider it to be a rapid transit operation since it is high platform, grade separated and third rail powered. The operation of Lehigh Valley Transit cars over the route until 1953? corresponds to the North Shore's use of the Chicago El, and the use of the Electroliners and later Chicago El Cars supports this approach.
In Seashore's roster, I list Seashore's three Bullets with the Rapid Transit cars for this reason. I take heat from some "purists" over this, but nobody has yet made a convincing argument for "Interurban".
Interestingly, there is more reason to classify Chicago's Skokie line as an interurban since it was solely operated by the North Shore for most of its service history. The Chicago Elevated (common ownership) did operate some service to Niles Center in the early years, but through the 30s, 40s and 50s NSL was the sole operator. Even in the reincarnation as part of CTA, the line has maintained a distinct fleet from the rest of the system, due to trolley operation on the outer end.
The South Shore, my old buddy, is considered the last remaining interurban. There is still street running through Michigan City. At one time, there was also street running in East Chicago, where the line traces its original roots to, and South Bend, which I vivdly remember.
Street running through East Chicago came to an end with the opening of the East Chicago Bypass in 1956, which coincided with the dedication of the Indiana Toll Road. I was born two months after all of this occurred; the Toll Road and I are the same age!
Trains continued running down LaSalle Ave. to the station in downtown South Bend until July of 1970, when the line was cut back to the western outskirts by the Bendix plant. The line now terminates at Michiana Regional Airport.
Rolling stock has always used pantographs for current collection, even in the early days of 6600-volt AC operation. The line was converted to 1500-volt DC operation in 1926, when it was through-routed to Randolph St. via Illinois Central trackage.
"New Orleans doesn't have LRV's ,it doesn't even have trolleys, but it is fortunate to have streetcars!"
It's also fortunate to have not only streetcars, but A Streetcar Named Desire.
Wasn't the Desire line changed to a bus in the 1940s or the early 1950s? Imagine a play entitled "A Diesel Bus Named Desire"--ugh.
Now there are only St. Charles and Riverfront; Riverfront is a "modern" line built along the railroad right-of-way close to the waterfront. Last summer I tried to get a late-evening ride on the connector from the Riverfront up to St. Charles by publicly acknowledging my railfan status, but it didn't work.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
The Portland Ore transit system uses " trolleys " only with pantagraphs,which looks funny on the old style trolleys which dont run the entire line,as the Lrv cars have pantagraphs they look as if they belong there,also Portland did have dual gauge trackage,in fact some is coming through the blacktop in some areas,
There were places in Los Angeles which had dual gauge trackage. These were spots where Pacific Electric's standard gauge interurbans shared the street with LARY's narrow (3' 6") gauge streetcars.
Interestingly enough, Denver Tramways used the same narrow gauge for its streetcars as did Los Angeles. Our light rail line has standard gauge track. Construction update: the station platform for the Downtown Littleton stop is in place, and the trackways, or spaces for tracks, are visible. I don't know for sure how much track has been put down on the extension, possibly as far as Mississippi Ave., as the only vantage point is the Broadway bridge which carries I-25 over the Rio Grande and Santa Fe tracks, as well as the existing light rail line, and you have to look fast while doing 55 mph. All bridges are in place, with only the north approach to the crossover flyover remaining to be built. This is where the light rail line trades places with the ATSF and Rio Grande tracks. Track relocation is under way.
John, did you know that LRV are not light and are heavier than a heavy rail vehicle. What a stupid name for a street car.
Pigeonholes are rather nasty ways of grouping things - after all, they tend to fill up with pigeon poop.
Far too many of the younger folks have no sense of ethics, history, English grammar, or anything that does not affect the amount of money they can spend on instant gratification. After all, most of them have been raised by television and video games - emphasis deliberate - rather than by their parents. Many of the members of my generation have abdicated their responsibilities as parents, either in pursuit of the almighty dollar or because the children are simply the unwanted byproduct of a few minutes of fleeting pleasure, completely abandoned by one or both parents and effectively abandoned even by the one who may be physically present while the child is growing up. At no other time in the history of civilization has a society abandoned its children - its future - pushing them out into the world without any significant parental influence. Even the "dumb" animals ensure that their young are taught the rules of behavior required to survive and be accepted in their society. How many of our children know how to properly behave in ours - and of those, how many had to learn it from someone other than their parents?
OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is there a document on the controls of a standards subway train and how they work?
What's a "standard subway train"? Do you mean a train of AB standards?
Actually, I meant standard. As in common to all. In general.
I thought there was an online tutorial on this somwhere on
the nycsubway.org site, but I can't locate it. David?
The TA has a series of training manuals on brakes, propulsion
and doors which all together comprise about 200 pages.
If you have a specific question, there are a number of posters
to this discussion group who could answer it, myself included.
Due to Boro Hall situation some 2 trains are running to New Lots. If you want pics let me know.....
[Due to Boro Hall situation some 2 trains are running to New Lots.]
What "situation" is that?
You mean the smoke condition this morning?
Yep, thats probably right since i was in the middle of this confudsion at Utica Av. this morning the platform was crowded to a point that you could have fell off ( which almost happend to me a couple of times) They even let riders stanbd and watch as all ther 4 and 5 trains bypassed them (stacked)this was getting very dangerous for every one's saftey since the station was deadly overcrowded and I mean deadly yet there is no explaination why there was nothing done to ease the congestion at all. read Chaos at Utica IRT too
I understand your point, but please realize that Utica Ave. was not the only station with dangerous crowd conditions. So were all the other stations as well. By having a couple of trains bypass the station, they could pick up passengers a few stops down the line when service resumed and you would have another train at Utica for you to get on. Plus, if the trains didn't bypass you: when your train got going there would be no way for Utica Ave. passengers and passengers all down the line to get on that first train after the interruption ended. In the long run, by having a few trains bypass, the railroad would get back to normal sooner.
I saw the TA do this on the local Broadway line too. 116th was a very busy station, typically after a problem I would see one or two trains pass right by, then if we were lucky the following train was empty & the crowd at 116th would fill it up. Also one of the first trains, maybe ours, would go express at 96th. The first time it happened I mumbled a lot under my breath, but I got to understand what they were trying to do & didn't mind quite so much.
Mr t__:^)
Some #2 trains terminate at New Lots after the AM rush to lay up rather than have to go all the way uptown. Of course, the reason being no storage area at or near Flatbush/Nostrand.
In all my life I have never seen such disregard for transit riders at Utica Av. I dont't know what the hell was going on this morning at Utica Ave today. There was a smoke problem at Borough Hall sattion and this screwed up the 2,3,4and 5 trains today. The "genius" at Utica decides to allow all 4 and 5 trains to not open their doors to allow passengers on instead leave the station (my guess to start at Atlantic Ave to cater to the riders at that point). What is really disgusting about this was the scene at Utica. It was only two Weeks ago where there an incident of a man being pushed on to the tracks in front of an on coming train. I cannot count howmany times i was almost pushed unintentionally, but this was ridiculous. There was no standing room at the station peoplecrowding the stairs and police officers lying saying there was a minor disruption in service. I don't call this a minor diruption but a serious saftey hazzard that took place. Just to get a couple of trains out of Utica at the expense of tax paying citizens. The dispactcher should be held accountable for their actions
If a train bypasses a station, any station, it is considered an ABD or abandoned interval. The transit authority does not have any disregard for passengers on the Lexington Avenue service as you have the best in the system. You were the first to get R-62s, you have better than 4 minute headways with express service as early as 5:30 in the morning. Even your oldest cars have air-conditioning. Whats your point? The dispatcher does not take it on himself to bypass your station and risk a suspension. A train operator is least likely to bypass a terminal without a conductor pulling the cord. Don't "guess" then blame the workers as they are tax paying citizens too. By the way why is it rediculous for a man to get pushed in front of a train? Whats your opinion? We'd like to forget. Post to a site when you have a point
My sister was telling me about the situation this morning. She said that 4 and 5 trains were bypassing the station and started at Atlantic or Franklin. When a train pulled into te station the dispatcher would say "Operator Key By" and do not open the doors. The third trai they let people on......
Sorry for one more OPTO question.
Was the rule book changed in anyway to allow OPTO?
All I can remember is the Conductor Rule 97(b) at the end it meantions T/O (** are mine to point it out):
"Conductors who are assigned to revenue train service have charge of trains and are responsible for the saftey, regularity and proper care and conditon of trains and such orders as they may give, not conflicting with the rules and regulations or special instructions, must be obeyed. **Where Conductors are not assigned to revenue train servie, Train Operators will be in complete charge of their trains."**
I'm no expert on this subject, Harry is. But I do believe you are correct.
Funny you should point out that particular rule, It's my favorite. Unfortunately, most Train Operators need to be reminded of it! Motormen know better.
That rule (conductor in charge of train)was superceded by both a bulletin superceding transfer moves which has to put someone in charge of a train and also an opto guideline bulletin shifting the responsibility of door operation from the conductor to the T/O. Although all employees have a book of rules they are superceded regularly by bulletins so what you read in your rules may not be in effect or greatly modified.
Is there still a T&M being published? Does anyone have a subscription that is active and being currently fulfilled?
I picked up a back issue at the Seashore Trolley Museum yesterday in their well-stocked gift shop...one of the best things about going there. It was dated 1996 and was issue #226.
I know Vane Jones' daughter was publishing T&M sporadically after the death of his son, who had taken it over for a while after Vane's death. Does she still put it out?
From what I saw of #226 it was pretty slim, and contained a request from the publisher for more articles sent immediately in order to fill up the magazine's next issue. There were also a few back issues of Electric Lines on sale for $3 a pop.
I have never been to the NYC Subway Museum in Brooklyn, the one that is closing (or will close) for renovations. What sorts of things can you buy in their gift shop...is it strictly NYC related or do they stock books, videos, postcards from other cities? Is the entrance to the museum strictly from the subway, or can you enter directly from the street? Is the museum interesting/worth the time to visit?
Thanks for guidance in all the above questions.
The Museum is definately worth the visit. It is located in a former subway station, Court Street, in Brooklyn Heights. This station was never a through station; rather, it operated from 1936 to 1946 as a one-stop shuttle from Hoyt-Schermerhorn station just a couple of blocks away. Access is from the street only, at the corner of Schermerhorn Street and Boerum Place. The gift shop is essentially 100% NYC (ignoring the kiddie junk) but does have some nice items. And the collection is top-notch.
They have a web page, New York Transit Museum, that you might want to check out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Had the winds of time blown differently; i. e., had the Depression not hit, Court St. would, in fact, have been a through station, linking up with the WTC terminal tracks with the 2nd Ave. line branching off at the tip of Manhattan.
Go one block south down Court St., to Atlantic Ave., and you'll be directly above the railroad tunnel you may have heard about.
Correct. Another line that would serve the city well today.
I've been down in the Atlantic Avenue tunnel on the recent tour and posted about it here at some length - quite an experience.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The NY Transit Museum gift shop has a lot to learn from those of the other regional transit/rr museums (Seashore, Shore Line, Baltimore, B&O, etc). Mostly subway-related paraphenalia. The book selection is sporadic and many times the "usual suspects" are out of stock. They do carry a lot of items unique to their gift shop, however. You won't find back issues of magazines, rare books, items from other cities, etc.
Also, you can't enter the museum from the subway at all-- you can only enter from the street. Closest station is the 2/3/4/5 Borough Hall station.
-Dave
I believe I was at this station a few years ago. I was going to Manhattan on the R. I forget what street I entered, yet when I came down the stairs, I had to walk a bit to the token booth. Yet what was interesting is that it was not just a regular passageway. It was a thin walkway on the platform, that was made up of a tile wall on my right and a wall on my left made up of iron bars. You can just stand there like you are on the platform, yet you could not enter until you walked to the booth. Is this the station? I found it odd, becuase I have never seen another like this.
Were you on the Ave of Americas ? If so, that walk way between 34 & 42 has been closed.
No, he's talking about 36 Street on the Queens Blvd. line. (That station's on Northern Blvd. though)
AFAIK, it's the only station on the system where the back all of the local platform is not in the fare control area. I would guess the original plan was to have token booths and turnstiles at both entrances, but I don't know how long 36th St. has had that configuration (which isn't the same on the Contiental Ave.-bound platform)
On the Manhattan-bound side, between the east and west ends of the station. It allows two entrances with only one token booth.
Russ,
The 79th St. station on the (1)(9) has a similar arrangement, although there is a break in the wall containing an old exit-only iron maiden.
Bob Sklar
The City of New York DOT should drop the entire span of the Willy B. into the East River and let the fish build a coral reef. A new span should be installed with better and materials. Enough with fixing this rust bucket with patches.
The same could be done the Manhattan Bridge. When the Manhattan Bridge was resignaled in the 1960's, some of the cast iron signal cases were thrown into the East River. Now the river is signaled, HA, HA!!!
Actually, they should tear down both structures and build a lower-profile, non-suspension bridge (draw bridge or swing-type) like the Marine Park bridge (aka Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge) so that it will not require the height and intricate support structure neccessary to sustain a taller bridge. Besides, the east river doesn't have the same boat traffic loads as it did decades ago. Nowadays there are only a few sight-seeing cruisers, party boats & ferries and an occasional garbage scow or the larger DEP ship that regularly use the East River.
It would also be less work for the trains going across since the span would have less of a steep grade to deal with.
Any thoughts out there in cyberland?
Doug aka BMTman
Even though there is little traffic, the East River is required to allow warships to pass, thus a high bridge.
When the heck are we gonna be at war with anybody right here in the Freggin' East River, for God's sake...(I know we used to have some bad gang-warfare up in the Bronx, but I doubt it needed real heavy gunships ;-)
I think they need the East River as a way to get from places like the Brooklyn Navy Yard, Fort Wadsworth S.I. etc. out to Long Island Sound and so to sea, though in this era of relative peace, I don't see much need for warships &c.
Wayne
>...though in this era of relative peace, I don't see much need for warships &c. <
But "just in case" we ever need to go to war, the access is needed... same reason we keep a standing army...
Mike
There is a National Security Issue here. The Brooklyn Navy Yard still functions as a shipyard to a limited degree, also the Navy maintains a Fast Sealift Ship at Bayonne which could use the East River if the Narrows were blocked by enemy action. Don't forget that during World War II German U-Boats sank merchant vessel right off Coney Island.
Larry,RedbirdR33
True, but nowadays, Military supremacy is pretty much determined by Air Force power, not so much Naval forces. Ever since WW II, the Air Forces of the world play more of a role than do Naval strategies.
And as for the Brooklyn Navy Yard -- it's ship building days are a thing of the past. Did anyone hear the news about Robert DeNiro being instrumental in obtaining the Navy Yard for usage as a "Hollywood East"? When completed by 2002, the Brooklyn Navy Yard will be a formidable rival for the movie studios of La La land (and supposedly this studio will employ large numbers of local area residents -- we'll have to wait and see about that).
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: While air power can accomplish tremendous things it needs a sucure base to operate from be it a naval aircraft carrier or an airbase in a friendly nation or one on enemy territory secured by ground forces. In any event an infrastructure must be maintained to support these operations and this can only be accomplished in the long term by supply from a merchant fleet escorted by the navy.
I think the work on the Willy B is not entirely uncalled for as the bridge is 95 years old and at that time in life we all could use a little face lift. The MannyB (How's that for a nicename''') is in much more serious trouble due both to many years of municipal neglect and poor design structure to begin with. I think they should start planning a replacement bridge or tunnel now.
If you would like to discuss the military side of this further please e-mail me as I fear we would be getting off topic.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Hmmm.. MannyB has a nice ring to it. I don't know about Willy & Manny, though.
They should pry Hell Gate Bridge loose, tow it downstream, and set it between the two suspension bridges. It's stronger than the two of them combined.
While it's ship BUILDING days are long over, it still works as an overhaul and refit yard for merchant ships.
-Hank
[Actually, they should tear down both structures and build a lower-profile, non-suspension bridge (draw bridge or
swing-type) like the Marine Park bridge (aka Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge) so that it will not require the height and intricate support structure neccessary to sustain a taller bridge. Besides, the east river doesn't have the same boat traffic loads as it did decades ago. Nowadays there are only a few sight-seeing cruisers, party boats & ferries and an occasional garbage scow or the larger DEP ship that regularly use the East River.]
Bridge clearance would have to be high enough to allow barges to pass without having to open the draw. As there is extensive barge traffic on the East River, opening the draw for each barge surely would jam up train and road traffic on the bridge.
You don't want to permanently foreclose on the option of reviving river traffic in NYC. The feds would never go for it anyway. Anyone know what the minimum required clearance above MHW (mean high water) actually is?
For the subways, the best replacements are tunnels, not lower bridges.
All the bridges below Hell Gate clear at least 133 above MHW while those above going to the Long Island Sound clear at least 142' above MHW. I don't know about the Hell Gate Bridge itself but I would guess about 135. For many years lagre naval vessel built at the Brooklyn Navy Yard had collapsible (or hinged) masts for passing under the Manny B and Brookyn Bridges.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Robert Caro's book on Robert Moses has a detailed section on how the military rights to navigate the East River were used to kill Moses' plans for a `Brooklyn Battery Bridge' back in the late 1930s. If that was still the case the Secretary of Defense and the President would still have veto power over any low water crossing of the East River.
(The bridge was vetoed due to politics, and Moses correctly pointed out there were already six East River Bridge crossings in 1939, but the look of lower Manhattan is still better off because FDR forced him to build a tunnel)
I don't think the traffic on either side of the river could stand to be delayed by a lift bridge.
-Hank
Hank: There are several factors against a draw bridge on the lower East River. The bridge would have to be manned on an around the clock basis as it is very near the FDNY's Marine Co No 6 in the Brooklyn Navy Yard and the most likely area of response for that company would be down the river into the upper bay. Also there is the swiftness of the current given that the East River is a tidal strait. To see this just stand on Roosevelt Island and watch the boats going by in the west channel. If a ship had to stop to wait for the drawbridge to open it would probably have to use its engines to maintain a stationary position. The only draws currently on the East River are the Roosevelt Island Bridge over the normally unused east channel and the Wards Island Foot Bridge which has a clearance of 55' above MHW when lowered. This is sufficient at that point because most of the larger river traffic doesn't come above Newtown Creek or Long Island City.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for the heavy-duty info, Redbird. Food for thought...
Doug aka BMTman
This is a change in your attitude Dave. I find it refreshing! But you and I both know what should be done and what will actually happen are two widely divergent things.
I always felt the two structures provided NY with some class, and are actually quite plesant to cross. Logic would suggest that river tubes be constructed, but we know that's not happening either.
But it would make a great show, if they did blow 'em up!
I hope they would line up 20 or so R68's for a stress test, like last time the Willie B closed. Then it shoud fall! Two eye sores in one shot! That's funny! Hah AHa AH ahaha ha hahahahahhah ha ha!!
Nah, they should load it up with a bunch of R-44s. Get rid of those junkers....Better yet, borrow the a few dozen LIRR M-1s...
This reminds me of a National Lampoon spoof ("Not the New York Times") published in the late '70s where the headline read something like "Queensboro Bridge falls down: Weight of runners pounding the deck during the NYC Marathon causes bridge collapse". The "article" even had a picture of the main span in the East River!
--Mark
Mark: This is something which has been consistently overlooked in the popular press. Subjecting the 59 St Bridge to the remoreless pounding of 50,000 feet is unconscionable. At the very least the runners should be made to swim from Staten Island to Brooklyn. This would separate the men from the boys and have the double effect of thinning the field. Alternatively we could have the runners board an N train of R-68's at 95 St in Brooklyn and ride to Lexington Av in Manhattan.
Of course this would make the race about three days long.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey, why not make it the NYC Biathlon? Never mind the biking part the way they do it in Hawaii.
Remember Rosie Ruiz in 1980? She entered the NYC marathon and ended up taking the subway for part of the way. And the train didn't break down! She pulled another stunt in Boston, literally coming out of nowhere a few hundred yards from the finish line, pretending to be all out of breath. She insisted she ran the entire race, but was proven otherwise.
It would also cure the problem of access to Staten Island for 12 hours that day...
-Hank
Alternatively we could have the runners board an N train of R-68's at 95 St in Brooklyn and ride to Lexington Av in Manhattan. Of course this would make the race about three days long.
Not if they PUSHED! :)
--Mark
That's my line! Just kidding.
Needless to say, the R-32s and slant R-40s would get the job done quicker - you would think.
I have that very same copy somewhere. It also had a story of the Pope dying yet again, 34 minutes after assuming the Papacy. Keep in mind this came out in 1978, right after John Paul II was elected Pope. John Paul I died after something like 34 days as Pope.
They should throw in some R-44s for good measure. That would be even better. If the R-16s were still around...
BOMBS AWAY!! GERONIMOOOOOO!!
After all the clean-up effort involved in the past 25 years, dumping a bunch of R-44s and R-68s in th East River would surely bring down the wrath of the EPA on New York's heads.
And considering the nature of those trains, their removal from the river would probably go extremely slow.
I can't help but think of a variation of an old joke:
"Motorman, does this train stop at the river?"
"If it doesn't, there'll be one helluva splash."
Har-de-har-har.
I wonder if an R-44 or R-68 would make a good coral reef in Florida.
How's this for a solution?
If I recall, the new 63rd street tunnel was made from prefab sections lowered into place. I say they drag these pieces downstream to replace the Willy B and forget the other project all together.
Bill
Great idea. Drop the Willy B. tracks and structure into the East River and place the track under the river in tubes. Hire CDI (Controlled Demolitan Inc. to implode the tracks and structure into the East River and it can be used to celebrate the year 2000.
The Manhattan is a nature for this since both ends of the bridge tracks going into tunnel portals on the Manhattan and Brooklyn ends of the bridge.
It was reported that the word "Acela" sounds like the Italian word "ascella", which means armpit.
Interesting though, isn't it.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
You'd think these companies would learn! How well do you think the Chevy Nova sold in Spanish-speaking countries where the definition of "no va" means "doesn't go"??
--Mark
Very. They changed the name after a redesign. According to several sources, the original Nova sold 'better than average'. While it's frequently cited as an example of how to do your research before you market a product, it's nothing but another urban legend.
-Hank :)
-Mr Nitpick
Our company introduced a product not too long ago which they were going to name Corex. The joke was that customers would call about Cruex, which we all know is for something else. There were other ramifications which resulted in coming up with a different name for that product.
Our R-series line is catching on, BTW. No plans for an R10 or R12 model yet, though. I'm holding my breath on that one.
Both the Lexington Avenue subway and the PATH have a very unusal odor in the in the tunnels. Where does the odor came from?
Thanks for the great picture of the group at the station. Now I call tell who's who and writes all this great stuff on subtalk. I seem to have one more name than faces in the desciption. Am I counting wrong? Help !!!
Chuck Greene
You are right. There seems to be one more name than face (even counting Dave as behind the camera). Several Sub Talk members did not get off with the group at Marcy Avenue after we crossed the Willy B; they continued on the train we were on. Perhaps one of those names inadvertantly got on Dave's picture caption. I'm sure Dave will try to straighten it out if he gets appropriate input from those whose names are listed.
I just put up a small thumbnail identifying people although I screwed up the order of the names in the process. Let me know. If you don't want your face identified by number, you can let me know that too although process of elimination might make that moot... Check it out...
-Dave
I'm number 4, not number 6!
OOps :) Sorry, told you I screwed them up doing the numbering... Names to faces has never been my strong suit..
I'm #5.
Riding daily New York City Subway, my hungry eye frames the constant pulse of a humanity in transit in this theater of long tunnels, where drama and comedy intersect.To rewiew the documentary please contact by E-mail.
I'd appreciate a word from someone who knows: In a piece of fiction I'm doing, I refer to the old Erie-Lackawanna line that ran through my old neighborhood in Newark (Roseville). I recall that it branched off northward or northwestward at the station there. Am I correct in refering to it as the Erie Lackawanna, and what would that branch be correctly called? Thanks for any help.
The line was originally the Delaware, Lackawanna, and Western (DL&W). The route that went west through the Oranges to Morristown was the DL&W Main Line; the line veering to the northwest was the Montclair Branch. In 1960 with the merger of the DL&W and Erie RRs, the name became Erie-Lackawanna. In 1976 the EL became part of Conrail; today both routes are part of the NJ Transit network. The old DL&W Main Line is now NJ Transit's Morristown Line; its Penn Station NY service is called Midtown Direct.
I would also like to mention that the Roseville Avenue station was closed a number of years ago. The platforms are still visible from passing trains.
The Erie Lackawanna went through where I used to live, Pequannock Township. The old Pompton Plains depot is still there, as of 1995, although passenger service ended long before we moved there. Freight trains still used the line back then. The single track has since been torn up.
I thought that mass transit was supposed to have the ultimate goal of providing safe reliable transportation at low cost. The MTA is now a business willing to forgo safety, innovation, renovation and passenger comfort for the dirty green cash. First it was Healthcare that got money crazy now its the MTA. whats next churches?
Man, someone else who understands what I've been saying!
Thank you, I love you!!!!!
What every one seems to be forgetting here, is that CBTC is new and different. It's NOT the typical ASC or ATC cab signal system found in other places.
It goes BOTH ways. Information from the train regarding speed, passenger load, originating terminal and final destination, are some of the things that are supposed to be transmitted from the train to the wayside.
In cab systems, only speed limits are sent to an on-board recciever. On some lines that's all. Most have the penalty feature though. Very few out side of transit systems have an actual stop code. On the NE corridor for example, the minimum speed is "Restricted' @20 MPH. They can't actually stop a train. On the LIRR it's 15 MPH.
CBTC i'm very sure will have the ability to stop equipment
CBTC might collapse under it's own weight. Conference on CBTC being conducted at the Washington Marriot Hotel today and tomorrow. Anyone out there attending.
Mr. Erik, if the brake pipe ruptures then the trains will collide!!!
No, if the brake pipe ruptures, all pressure will vent to atmosphere. With a loss of pressure at a rapid rate, this will bring about an automatic application of the train's emergency braking system.
A quick stop will follow. Dave, you know better.
Or dare say it, I intrude into your demenses? And thou art offended?
If the leading train dumps brake pipe then the following train which is following at less than the safe braking distance to derive a very close headway under the new type train control could collide. That's what I meant Erik. Of course I know better.
Does anyone have any thoughts or theories on why the Marcy Ave side platform station is so radically different than the other seven side platform stations on Broadway? Hewes, Lorimer, Flushing, Kosciusko, Gates, Halsey and Chauncey seem to be of the same design and Marcy seems to be the odd man out. Were the other stations renovated many years ago and Marcy Ave just forgotten?
I think the original Marcy Ave station had a fire, and what you are seeing is the results of that renovation project.
--Mark
I had the opportunity last night to talk to another displaced NY subway fan. He told me that the original Marcy Ave Station was always a side platform station. It had several upgradings over the years. The other seven side platform stations were originally center platform stations that were replaced with new side platforms when the center track was added. That's why they match each other and make Marcy look like it is from another era. This man seems to have a great deal of knowledge of NY Transit so I have no reason to doubt his word.
Karl B
The gentlemen you talked to is correct. The Broadway (Brooklyn) El was built pre-Dual Contracts, and the Marcy Avenue Station dates from that time. It has seen numerous upgrades over the years, but remains basically in it's original form. It was a side platform station because the original track configuration in this area included a center layup track. The Broadway El was originally a two track structure, similar to the old Myrtle El south of Broadway with center wooden platforms. As part of the Dual Contracts, the Broadway El was triple tracked for express service. The other stations along the line were rebuilt to the standards of the Dual Contracts at that time. You will note the similarity of the other stations to the stations east of Cypress Hills on the Jamaica El as well as the stations east of Hudson Street on the Liberty Avenue El. These were built by the same contractor.
Thanks for the response. The man apparently knows a lot about New York's els and subways. I learned a lot of interesting tidbits from him. He claims that when they made all those Broadway center platform stations into side platforms they eliminated one station. There was supposedly a center platform station called Park St? (I think) between Flushing and Myrtle that they did away with completely. He said it was before his time but he remembers hearing about it.
Karl: It was called Park Avenue and was abandoned when the original Myrtle Avenue Station was enlarged and lengthened westward on June 5,1916.As you said it was a single island platform station.
Another station abandoned at about the same time was Evergreen Avenue on the Myrtle Avenue El between Central Avenue and Broadway Stations. It was necessary to abandon it because it would have interfered with the Dual Contract connection to the Broadway El. It was abandoned on September 17,1915 and Central Avenue station as rebuilt was relocated some distance south.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks Larry, at least I had the Park part right. He never said a thing about that other station which surprises me because when he lived in Brooklyn he lived on Evergreen Ave. I'm thinking this man is in his late 70's so he was probably not even born when the Evergreen Ave station was demolished. I think he said the nearest cross street was Greene Ave. I don't know much about that part of Brooklyn. Do those two streets intersect?
Karl B
Yes, Greene Avenue and Evergreen Avenue do intersect. Greene Avenue runs northeast-southwest; Evergreen runs 90-degrees perpendicular to it.
Wayne
Wayne & Larry Redbird;
I finally got to see an old Brooklyn map today and Wayne, you are correct( I knew you would be), Greene Ave and Evergreen Ave do intersect. I know that looking at the map will not give all of the details but I got the impression that the walk from that intersection would be about the same to either Gates Ave or Kosciusko St stations on the Broadway line or to the Central Ave station on the Myrtle Ave line. This man always used the Gates Ave station. It's almost fifty years since he lived there and he says the neighborhood has changed for the worst. Has it?
Karl B
Let's put it this way - the neighborhood is on the rebound after its nadir after the July 13-14 1977 civil unrest during a citywide blackout. It still needs some attention in spots (abandoned properties, vacant lots full of rubble, occasional burned out buildings, mostly along Broadway); some progress has been made, but more needs to be done. At least the situation involving burned-out buildings has been stabilized and the Mayor has put a dent in the drug traffic in the area. There is a building teardown under way just west of Myrtle/B'way, perhaps a new structure will go up there.
Wayne
Whatever became of the "Bargain Town" store located on Broadway between Myrtle Avenue and Kosciusko Street. I know that the building is still standing. In the 50's and 60's we would go there frequently.They had a great toy section. I recall that when one stood on the Myrtle Avenue Station there was a sign for a podiatrist by the name of Dr G Wanderer.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I can remember what that part of Brooklyn looked like as a kid riding through it on a J train in the late 70's/early 80's. Looked liked Dresden after an RAF raid.
Karl: I don't know about Greene Avenue but Evergreen Avenue was on Myrtle Avenue at Evergreen Avenue and Central Avenue was centered on Central Avenue. When Central Avenue Station was rebuilt is was centered between Evergreen and Central Avenues.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The following is an excerpt of an item that appeared on the Associated Press wire this morning:
The federal government says a four (B) billion-dollar plan to link the Long Island Rail Road to Grand Central Terminal isn't such a good idea right now. The Federal Transit Administration has issued a "not recommended" rating to Congress on the project -- partly because the M-T-A hasn't identified how to come up with the money. M-T-A officials say they will submit a new plan to convince the federal government to O-K the Grand Central connection.
I guess when Al Gore talked about transit to stop suburban sprawl, he was talking about Tennessee.
We know where they'll get them money. From cutting capital spending and maintenance in Brooklyn. That's where they're getting the money for more schools in Queens, isn't it.
"I guess when Al Gore talked about transit to stop suburban sprawl, he was talking about Tennessee."
There was an editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times last week about how the Federal Transit Administration was denying federal funding to the double-tracking of the Metra North Central Line. The North Central is a new Metra line (opened in 1996), mostly single-track, operating on the trackage of the Wisconsin Central. It has been very successful, and has tapped a whole new transit market. Though it runs basically parallel to the existing Metra-Milwaukee North line, that line's ridership has risen slightly while the North Central was also gaining passengers.
However, the North Central has only 5 round trips per weekday, versus 29 for the Milwaukee North, and there is no weekend service on the North Central. This is due mainly to the single-tracking and the conflicts that additional commuter trains would thus have with Wisconsin Central freight traffic. Therefore, RTA and Metra proposed to double-track the line, and requested some federal and state funding.
The FTA people denied approval on the grounds that the line would contribute to sprawl and that the Metra had no plans or programs to promote transit-oriented development around the stations. To be fair to FTA, it is true that, while many North Central stations were built in the traditional centers of existing suburban towns, many others were built on ex-agricultural "green-field" sites. It is also true that several new subdivisions have sprung up within short distance of the "green-field" North Central stations.
However:
1) Those reasons are somewhat contradictory! Metra shouldn't get money because it's not encouraging development within walking distance of the stations, but it also shouldn't get the money because development has occurred within walking distance of the stations?!?!
2) While it is true that, because of the North Central line, new subdivisions have been built on "green-field" sites, development would have occurred on these sites at some point in the next decade with or without the North Central Line! And because the North Central line is there:
a) many more of those subdivisions were built on "neotraditional" or transit oriented principles than would have been without the line.
b) many of the people who moved into those subdivisions were attracted by the proximity to the railway and they will be using it to get to work rather than driving. If there was no commuter rail station nearby, and the subdivisions attracted the usual mix of buyers, how many of them would have used transit to get to work?
3) Metra is in no position to encourage transit-oriented development. It is strictly a commuter rail agency. Illinois has a tendency of creating single-purpose agencies, each to handle its own particular regional issue, rather than creating regional agencies with multiple powers and purposes. The only way it could encourage TOD is to condemn land around station sites in excess of what they need for railway purposes and develop the excess under transit-oriented principles. But does Metra have the money to go into the land development business? And wouldn't some of the public scream bloody murder about a transit agency that cannot even turn a profit (that is, cover it's expenditures from the farebox and advertising) getting into what would surely be characterized by opponents as "land speculation"?
It shows just how short-sighted and dogmatic the FTA (and Al Gore) are. You're still going to have sprawl. But now you have will sprawl plus increased auto traffic into Chicago (or any other city) because of the poor rail service from growing suburban communities. By attempting to regulate sprawl, you are putting a damper on economic development. So fewer jobs will be created in Illinois. Also, since when has the federal government had the authority over zoning and development issues? I trust the people of Illinois (or any other state) and it's electorate to make those decisions.
Anyone know how prevalent this "transit agency as central planner" mindset is?
I know Atlanta's MARTA is very proud of the integrated developments they're overseeing at their stations, and I think Washington Metro made some development and land-sale money on parcels along their red line, but it seemed like both of these plans were local efforts to generate some alternative revenue sources. Is it really federal policy? For how long?
sounds like a good idea, however N.Y.C has high local taxes so businesses are driven away, where Atlanta has been subsidized by the federal Gov't spending more in the south than it takes in there. if the tax problem could be solved, the MTA could be looking at a real opportunity to liquidate surplus property and enhance ridership. just make those taxes and subsidies the same for everybody
"By attempting to regulate sprawl, you are putting a damper on economic development. So fewer jobs will be created in Illinois."
While I (obviously, by my previous posting) think that the FTA is wrong on this one, and that any program that increases transit ridership in a relatively-cost effective manner is inherently good even if some "greenfield" development results, I must disagree with the above-quoted assertion.
There is a large amount of underdeveloped or undeveloped (vacant and abandoned) properties in already-urbanized areas (so-called "brownfields"). Since these areas already have infrastructure like roads, transit, utility service, etc. in place, it makes sense to encourage development -- which we agree shall and MUST occur -- to occur in these areas rather than to sprawl out into agricultural "green-fields" areas where expensive new infrastructure has to be built. Of course, one cannot totally prevent development in rural areas, but you can use both incentives and regulations to channel as much of it as reasonably possible to already-developed urban and near-suburban areas. At the very least, we can remove the existing incentives and regulations that promote sprawl.
To put it simply: even in a place like metropolitan New York City, there's plenty of room to build development "up" (increasing density where development exists) rather than swallow up more farm land by building "out" (low-density development in greenfields). While some people are using sprawl as an excuse for NIMBY/BANANA/no growth agendas, most responsible discussion of sprawl realizes that we need to channel development, NOT prevent it. In fact, some argue that the higher costs to society (thus the gov't, and thus citizens and businesses in the form of taxes) of sprawl slows down development to an extent!
Has any one else beside me noticed that the new home of socialism and all the social change radicals is the enviornmentalist movement? It's the only way they have to excersise some influence on the "capitalist agenda"
I sure have noticed it. And it isn't socialism, it's feudalism.
Under captialism, you get what you earn, at least in theory.
Under socialism you get what you need, at least in theory.
Under feudalism you get to keep what's you've got, whether you need it or not, deserve it or not. And those that ain't got? Too bad. Socialism was originally intervening to help the poor. Environmentalism is intervening to help the better off. This whole environmental racism thing, to the extent the chattering classes participate in it, is just a guilt trip.
No one ever says "this is too dense, lets make some of the existing people/businesses leave." No one ever says the environmentalist should leave his or her existing home in the woods. No one is measuring the environmental impact of the existing Astoria Line -- just the proposed extention to LaGuardia.
Environmental claims, when raised in opposition to development projects, frequently are red herrings. I can cite an example from my own childhood in Connecticut. Back in the very late 1960s, my father, who was doing contracting work at the time, proposed construction of a ~15-lot subdivision in the north end of Waterbury. Almost as soon as he announced the plans, there was a big hue and cry about how the development would ruin the local environment. Note that this was just about when the environment was becoming a major topic. Among the more heated claims was the assertion that a nearby lake would be rendered unsuitable for swimming during the construction phase. An odd claim, to be sure, in that the lake was (a) several hundred feet from the development and (b) privately owned with swimming forbidden. In any event, the opponents tried to get the city planning board and, later, board of aldermen to stop the project, but weren't successful.
It later came out (I can't remember exactly how) that the people in the neighborhood didn't care at all about the environmental issues. They were concerned that the development would attract minorities to what was then a white, mostly Joe Sixpack area. Environmentalism just happened to be a trendy issue to raise. And what was funny is that most if not all of the people who moved into the development were themselves white. While the neighborhood is now somewhat racially mixed, that didn't happen until at least 15 years later.
But then aren't we just letting the federal government make land-use decisions that are best determined by the marketplace and local zoning concerns? What's next - another huge federal 'land-use' bureaucracy? The feds are telling that Illinois 'agricultural land owner' (farmer) that they know what's better for him than he does. In many states farmers' property taxes are high because the suburbs have reached them, they have to sell. Some communities charge a lower rate for farms but others don't. With the feds in the middle the farmer is screwed no matter what. As is noted in another post, the sunbelt will benefit from this policy as it will effectively discourage employers and developers from locating near the large northern and midwestern cities. High labor costs plus goverment meddling do not make an attractive location.
Re: government "meddling"
Do you realize that even if the federal gov't stays out of the business of regulating land use decisions as such, it effectively still IS making land use decisions when it:
1) decides what transportation projects to fund?
2) gives income-tax breaks to some land-use-related economic decisions but not others?
3) decides where to put large government offices and other facilities?
4) decides on the parking provisions for those facilities?
5) decides whether or not to include "transit checks" or similar instruments in the benefits package of civil servants?
I agree that the federal government has no business directly regulating land use. But, simply because it:
*is a large entity with large numbers of employees and offices all over the country,
* collects income taxes, and
* regulates and funds transportation,
it has the power to affect land uses, and it should at least conduct these activities with the goal of not ENCOURAGING sprawl!
When the Government moved large numbers of agency headquarters and offices outside Washington DC into the Maryland and Virginia suburbs, it made pro-sprawl DECISIONS. When it appropriated billions for the Interstate highways and only millions for transit projects, it made pro-sprawl DECISIONS. When obtaining an FHA loan was much more favorable for newly-constructed housing than for purchasing existing housing stock, the Government made a pro-sprawl DECISION. None of these were land-use decisions in the sense that you mean them, none of these involved government **regulation** of private land use, but clearly they had an effect on sprawl, and if the Government had installed an anti-sprawl policy before now, perhaps many of these decisions would have gone the other way.
Based on the fact that the FTA is actively using the 'sprawl' issue to deny the Illinois request is indication that the federal government is indeed taking the next step towards regulation local land use.
As someone involved in land use regulation for a living, who sees how it works, I have to agree with Dan that federal land use decisions are a bad idea. But I don't think much of local land use decisions either. While a letter writer to the current issue of Planning Magazine says otherwise, planners, not the market, created sprawl.
True, the advent of the automobile, and the desire for home-ownership, meant that densitites were going to go down. But in post-war areas where zoning was permissive -- ie. eastern Queens and Staten Island -- densities ran from 10 to 30 units per acre. Developers built garden apartments, two-family houses, and rowhouses. Even in South Richmond, where they want to stop development and (due to outsized influence in this administration) got what they wanted, they didn't want to ban the two-family house. You can still get 15 units per acre. People want their parents and kids to be able to live in the area, and to get that income.
Now look at the suburbs. If you couldn't afford a detached, single-family house on a 1/4 acre, then 1/2 acre, then one-acre lot, they wanted to keep you out. Zoning did it, not developers. The suburbs sprawl at four, eight, or twelve times the rate of "market" driven development, and non-residential activities are that far away.
The planners are to blame for causing the opposite of what they are now in favor of. So what do the want to do? Put in even more rules for force developers to do the opposite of what they forced them to do before!
Anthony Downs wrote a good book on this subject, in which he blamed rent control (the "liberal" mistake) and restrictive zoning (the "conservative" or "environmentalist" mistake) for many of our ills.
(FTA denied funding to METRA) Glad to know those SOBs aren't just sticking it to NYC. This is absurd. The FTA is denying funding due to suburban sprawl, while feds are funding highways up the wazooo. The money is going to the sunbelt, boys. Damn them.
The FTA recommended and not-recommended ratings are really Go/No-GO ratings. If an application is incomplete or not all of the I's are dotted and T's are crossed it gets a No-Go until they are corrected. A not recommended rating is not a stop card.
I don't believe that we'll be getting more than our five percent (with seven percent of the population and eight percent of federal tax payments) of the federal transportation money as a result of this. Why should we beg the FTA for our money back? Why not just kill off the whole federal infrastructure program? It's killing us. You pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut out the middleman in Washington.
You folks wanted to get rid of Senator Al. Now you've got Chuck "the schmuck" Schumer. Congratulations, this is what you get.
You said it! Senator Al would have fought the FTA tooth and nail against that lame-brained decision. The FTA will eat Chuck the Putzhead alive. Get ready for more crowding at Penn Station. Thank you New York State voters for replacing one of our best fighters with somebody who has no idea what he's up against. All the Schumer voters and supporters out there really screwed New York this time! Don't you dare blame "those mean Republicans" this time! It's not their fault an idiot who only loves to be on TV replaced Senator Pothole as our Senator! Just think what'll happen if Hillary gets elected as our other Senator...
(What happens if Hillary gets elected). We have one politician in this state who is intellegent and cares about the future of the City: Moyihan. And in 2000, he's gone.
Unfortunately, I don't trust Al "The Snake" D'Amato any more than the knucklehead currently sitting in the White House. Yeah, D'Amato got things done -- sometimes (and usually when it benefitted himself politically) -- but he had alot of shaddy, Mafia-related dealings that made him a liability when it came to the "trust" factor. That's why he given the thumbs down. Plain and simple.
And there really is no evidence that Al would have done any better than Schumer in getting the LIRR GCT link built.
Doug aka BMTman
Following the success of the Farewell to the Willy B Field Trip, and at the suggestion of several posters, the next SubTalk Field Trip will be a visit to the Newark Subway to see and photograph the PCC cars, whose days in Newark are numbered. Here are the details:
Date: Friday, June 4, 1999
Time: 6:00 pm
Place: We will meet at the World Trade Center PATH Station, on the platform between tracks 4 and 5, head end. For those unfamiliar with this station, you go down the long sets of escalators from the main lobby of the World Trade Center complex (just follow PATH signs to get there). Once at the bottom level, use the turnstiles to your right, and follow the signs to Tracks 4 and 5 and the trains to Newark.
Itinerary: Not definite right now, but my proposal is that we take PATH to Newark Penn Station and board the Subway. We could make a photo stop at Orange Street Station (grade crossing) and then re-board (for another fare) to go to last stop, Franklin Avenue, for another photo stop. We would then take the subway back to Newark Penn Station. If the light is still good, we could then take PATH one stop to Harrison to photograph Amtrak and NJ Transit trains. (Those not wishing to stop at Harrison could proceed back to NYC.)
Financial Details: Bring lots of $1.00 bills, as both the PATH and Newark Subway fares are $1.00 each trip.
Reservations: Although advance reservations are not necessary, to get an idea of how many are coming, please post here or send me an e-mail to 75113.53@compuserve.com to indicate if you are planning to be on this trip.
Sid,
Sounds like a great trip. I can't make it though -- I'm hosting a fund-raiser on WGBH-TV (Boston's PBS station, similar to Channel 13 in NYC; the home of Julia Child and This Old House). But I'm really glad to see the field-trip phenomenon is catching on, and I'll look forward to seeing the pictures!
I realy want to come to this one, but my asst. is on vacation that week, so I'll need to think about how to work around MY problem.
Worst case I'll use your detailed directions to catch up with you folks if I don't get to the NYC PATH station by 6PM.
So .... count me in :o)
P.S. I realy l-o-v-e PCCs ! If I could only catch one to Part Street or Hunting Avenue ....
Mr t__:^)
Sid,
I can make it, email me a list of who will come and I'll make name stickers up. I'll also bring blank stickers with markers for those that don't get on the list. Name badges can be optional of course.
Lou, I wouldn't get off at Orange Street with my name tag on.
PS Have a blast. I'd make it if I weren't in Oregon.
I think I'll be able to make this one. Just so happens I'm starting a week's vacation that night, and this would get it off to a great start.
What do you mean that the PCCs' days are numbered. How close is the end? Has a date been set or order placed for their successors? Are they being sold to another operator?
The PCC's will be replaced by light rail vehicles that are part of the same order now being delivered for the opening of the Bergen-Hudson Light Rail Line. It is not clear when some of those cars will be used to replace the PCC's, so the demise of the PCC's can be as early as later this year or maybe not for another year or two. I'm not sure where NJ Transit stands about trying to sell them, but I'm not sure how many potential buyers are out there. I have heard that NJ Transit has done a good job the past few years maintaining the ones that are running. Bottom line: even if they'll be around a while, it should be fun having a fan trip to ride and photo the PCC's on June 4th.
The new cars are supposed to enter service on the Newark Subway this time next year.
When will the first portion of the Hudson-Bergen Line open for revenue service?
I'm not entirely sure, but I believe the first leg of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Line is supposed to start up very early in 2000. My understanding is that the line will start in Bayonne and go only as far north as Exchange Place initially. The Exchange Place to Hoboken Terminal portion, which was originally supposed to open at the same time, will follow many months later. I recollect reading something about a change in the alignment around Hoboken Terminal.
Twenty-First Century Rail, the consortium building the line for NJ Transit, claims there will be all sorts of financial hell to pay unless the route is in revenue service by March 1, 2000. Trackage is supposed to be completed and powered by this November 1 so operators can commence training runs.
They are really moving fast with track construction west of Exchange Pl.
There are supposed to be two branches opening in March, 2000, from East 34th Street in Bayonne and West Side Avenue in Jersey City. These meet near Liberty State Park; the line then runs east and north to Exchange Place.
The reason for the delay in reaching Hoboken is that plans for the light rail station at Hoboken Terminal were changed. The station was supposed to be on the north side of the terminal; now it is going to be on the south side. The mayor and city council of Hoboken were against street running, so the design of the route was changed.
I do believe that SF Muni has dibs on a number of the PCC's; don't know exactly how many, but it is unlikely that any of them will be going to the scrap-yard anytime soon. Perhaps Seashore Museum or Branford has put in for a few as well.
Wayne
Just a note, some PCC's have already been converted to Pantagraph (Sp?) instead of trolley wire pickup. I read that some but not all PCC's will be kept but all new LRV's will the the norm this time next year.
You probally read that in the fine article in April '99 Railpace. It has gotten my mouth watering ....
Mr t__:^)
I'd love to come, but there's no way in hell I'm giving up my Mets-Yankees tickets. None. Not for $1M. Not for a subway car. Not for a funeral. Well, maybe for a permanent job....
-Hank
You're forgiven. I have a concert that evening, and will be doing my best impression on timpani of an A train of R-10s thundering past 81st St. in the fourth movement of Chaikovsky's Fifth Symphony.
P. S. It has been determined that the T in Tchaikovsky is not necessary.
I will try to be there.
I'm in, if the wife says okay!!!
Count me in, even though I don't mean to make anybody feel jealous when I say that I possess a New Jersey Transit Reduced Fare Card, so my fare on the Newark City Subway will be a mere US$0.45 per boarding during off-peak hours.
If I can get the day off (50-50) and if I can get someone to make the coffee, I might be able to go. I could start by getting the Noon (12:06) train out of Babylon.
Wayne
Ill be there with bells on! (or at least a name tag...)
As Mr. Train Control and the authority on such subjects I deem Cab Signaling to be supreme. CBTC will be tried and used on the 14th Street-Canarsie Line and only the future will tell the outcome but cab signaling is GREAT. After all there are not enough trains to run less than 60 second headways and no reason to do so on the Canarsie Line.
You types that believe in CBTC and it's safety can do so at your own risk. Cab signaling is failsafe, cost effective and time proven. The promoter of CBTC says that the track circuits and signaling system is unreliable on NYCT. It needs CBTC. You folks who ride the train on NYCT know it is the cars and operations that are unreliable and not the signals.
LETS HAVE SOME SUPER GOOD DISCUSSIONS ON THE BENEFITS OF CBTC AND IT'S SAFETY ON SUBTALK!!!
I have a couple questions about Cab Signaling vs. Track-Circuit Wayside Signals:
What specific benefits does cab signaling have over track-circuit wayside signals? I have been told that cost savings from not having to maintain as much wayside equipment is the main advantage. Are there other advantages?
Cab signaling is fixed-block, correct? If it's fixed-block, how can it improve headways? Or can it?
Would you advocate moving NYC subways from the existing system to cab signaling, and NOT CBTC? Would it be worth it to make the investment? Why or why not?
I ask this last question because Philly is planning on doing exactly that. They plan to move the MFL to cab signaling in a year or two. I just don't see how it's worth it to resignal a whole line, and NOT get the benefits of a moving-block technology. Would the savings on maintenance be that great? I feel like I'm missing part of the story here...
I say they should wait until CBTC is "tried and tested", then go with that. Then resignaling the whole line would have some more tangible benefits.
(PS: I apologize if I'm not using correct terminology. Please correct me if that's the case.)
Well, there's cab signals and then there's cab signals. Let's
start with simple wayside block signals. Each signal governs
the entrance to the block ahead. You see the signal and it tells
you what you are supposed to be doing when you get up to it (e.g.
stop, proceed slowly, approach expecting next signal at stop, etc.)
With cab signals, that information is transmitted to you invisibly
by sending pulses of different rates through the rails. You get
a signal in the cab in lieu of a wayside signal. Of course, you
don't quite know where the block is, but that's OK, because the
cab signal indications are set up such that you have time to comply
with the signal. So, if you get a stop signal one block ahead,
you'll have time to stop before you get to the next block, assuming
you have been following the signals all along and were slowing down
after you got that approach signal the block before.
The advantages of this first level of cab signaling are elimination
of maintenance costs of wayside signals and signal masts and bridges.
Note, however, that you still have wayside signals at interlockings,
where you want to precisely control the stopping point of a train
so it does not foul another move.
As a fringe benefit you can also eliminate some line circuit wiring
between blocks because you have "coded" track circuits.
To retrofit an existing wayside system to cab signals means
adding a lot of relays. Since they probably won't fit in the
existing enclosures, that means a lot of construction expense.
With cab signals, you can add Automatic Speed Control. With this
system, if you ignore the cab signals, you will be put into emergency.
It's similar to the wayside train stop system used in NYCT, but
it also provides compliance checking for permissive signals.
ASC requires on-board equipment for each locomotive (in FRA terms,
any powered car, such as an electric M.U. car, is a locomotive).
You need to have a bypass so in case the ASC equipment blows up
(e.g. the speedometer stops working) you can still run the train.
Then you need to have some way of discouraging your engineers from
using the bypass :) There's no 2-way communication, so you have
to rely on lead seals over the bypass switch and big noticeable
lights inside and outside the car and surprise inspections.
Communications-Based Train Control means the train is in constant
2-way contact with the wayside signalling equipment via
special radios. The wayside receivers can determine the position
and speed of the train and they share that information with other
wayside stations. Together, the wayside equipment and the on-board
equipment acts as one intelligent network that assesses conditions
and decides on the safest course of operation.
It is a "moving-block" system because there are no fixed block
locations established by insulated joints and track relays.
The train is given a constantly-changing speed envelope in which
to operate. The maximum speed is determined by analyzing the
distance to the next train, its speed, and the relative braking
curves of the two trains.
In theory, this approach would allow a following train to creep up
a car length behind its leader and still provide assurance that it
won't hit it. It always choses the highest safe operating speed,
and that choice is continually updated, therefore it is the most
efficient use of track space consistent with safety, unlike fixed-block systems which necessarily sacrifice efficiency for
worst-case safety. I disagree with David R's contention that if
the lead train goes into emergency, there's gonna be a collision.
As soon as the CBTC detects the lead train decelerating, it would
enforce a compliant speed envelope on the follower that would
prevent the collision.
That being said, proving the correct operation of
a distributed network of computers is far from trivial.
Conventional signaling is based on years of experience with
the failure modes of electromechanical devices and the rules
for designing and analyzing vital circuits are well-established.
The signal industry has only recently been able to come up with
guidelines for proving the correct operation of stand-alone
computers for signal use (so-called "Vital Signal Processors").
Extending that to a network is a much, much more difficult problem.
Wouldn't it be a bitch to have a fatal collision caused by something
like the Intel Pentium floating point bug? Think about the state
of computer software today (esp. mickeysoft) and ask yourself if
you'd trust life-safety systems to it.
CBTC requires much less wayside equipment. There will still be
track circuits in place to provide broken rail protection, switch
locking, and a fall-back in case CBTC fails or non-CBTC equipment
needs to operate in the territory. However, the track circuits
can be made much fewer and farther between since they are not
controlling the spacing between trains. All of the pesky retaining
circuits, cut sections and timing sections can be eliminated too.
On the other hand, CBTC equipment must be installed in every car,
or at least every car that could be on the head-end. With all this
multi-car-set linking, that reduces the inventory requirements from
6000 to maybe 1500 or so CBTC onboard units. Each onboard unit
is going to be very, very expensive, much more than conventional
ASC and certainly much more than what subway cars carry today
(a trip cock :), and it will probably have to be maintained largely
by the vendor. If the CBTC fails en-route, you will have to hobble
the train back to the yard or layup using effectively very long
absolute blocks.
Hey, if you want my solution to the NYCT signal/safety dilemna,
I'd install microprocessor-controlled anti-skid braking AND
magnetic track brakes on the entire fleet, upping the emergency
brake rate to 6.0, and call it a day.
Weren't the R-44s and R-46s originally equipped to run on such lines? For some reason, I get the impression that cab signalling was tried out on some BMT standards, but I could be dead wrong.
Yes, the R44/46 cars had original gear that was very similar to the LIRR M1 cars.
The cab signals were different in that they employed a stop code, whereas the Rail Road dosen't. The P-Wire braking system was very similar to the M1 also.
It's a damn shame they didint keep the equipment in working order. The cars had tremendous power when in the regulated mode. Flat out they were supposed to be able to maintain 70 MPH. Now in the current enviornment that's not feasible. But the aditional power to MAINTAIN SPEED going up a hill would be nice. All the other rail operators around the NY area have this power. Only the TA. Everyone else goes foward. We go backward.
As I understand, the 2nd Ave. line was designed for 70 mph speeds. And, of course, that's where the R-44s and R-46s were supposed wind up.
I'm sorry, I think you're missing my point. Yes I know the first of the 75' cars were meant to be run on the Second Av line. But there was a feature incorporated into them, whereby they could be run with the full power in regulated mode on the older lines. All that good stuff, the fun gear, was removed years ago. One of the reasons I'm no longer "Mr. R46"
On other rail carriers, the equipment is not run "flat out" at the MAS. The Maximum Authorized Speed. Example: NJT ArrowIII M.U. cars have enough H.P. to run at the MAS of 80 MPH, up hill, pulling dead cars too!
A locomotive travelling down the railroad at the MAS goes up a hill, the engineer simply opens the throttle more. Maintainig speed, like you do when driving your automobile on the interstate.
Here in the subway, the equipment was always underpowered. But now after the field shunt coil was removed from the final steps of acceleration, it's positively lethargic. Perfect example, the 60th Street river tube. Some real Motormen (not train operators) can achieve 60 MPH on the down grade. With an R68, yor lucky to see 16 going up! We all should be ashamed of our selves for letting this happen.
Never at the forefront of cutting edge technology or methods, was the TA. Now we've become the laughing stock of transportation systems. What else besides MetroCard and Graffitti Free have we done in the last decade?
I have to agree with Mr. Dina. All the motormen and tower operators and dispatchers and many others have led to this demise in speed on our subway.
Two rear ends on the West End between Fort Hamilton and 9th Avenue, and some other bone headed maneuvers regarding keying-by and taking call-ons proved that motormen cannot be trusted to key-by signals and such. Common sense took a leave on these things.
14th Street proved that when the rules are not followed (101-N) a major catastrophe can happen.
The Willamsburgh Bridge accident showed that the TA (though not admitted) was negligent on the signal system.
All these put together add up to the logical choice of slowing the trains down. (And I don't mean by applying more brakes) Physics will prove that it takes less distance to stop a slower moving object with the same amount of brake pressure.
Believe me if none of these things happened we would still have a very fast (and from an operating standpoint a very enjoyable) RAPID transit system.
Rule 101 (n) TOWER OPERATOR
When for any reason it is necessary to divert a train from its regular route, the switch must not be set for the diverging move nor the signal for that route cleared until the train has stopped, unless the Tower Operator can see the train and has observed that its speed has been reduced to that allowable for th ecrossover movement.
And A and D trains would still be rocketing along CPW instead of wallowing (R-44s and R-68s) along or taking a leisurely stroll (R-38s).
Well, the R44s are generally slow and the R68s are moribund but the R38s are still peppy. A leisurely stroll begins at the 81st Street GT nest and also up around Homeball Alley (145th to 125th). Tomorrow I ply the R38s to the Fulton Express for the first time on the weekend ever. I won't ride an R44 (unless 5408 happens along).
BTW when I was coming down from 175th to 34th aboard #3994 back on Apr 24 we came up to the 1997 wreck site near 135th Street - there's a big chunk of concrete taken out of the curtain wall where #5282 (ex. #140) hit it.
Wayne
Say, Wayne, did you happen to notice any construction going on right at the location where the Concourse express track diverges from the express tracks?
Also Flatbush Ave is filled with slow times and a wall with a stop Sign behind the Bumping Block because of trains had hit the Block. Also the S marker was moved up.
I call that Stop sign the Forest Gump Sign.
You can speak for yourself, there are plenty of excellent motormen who operate safely and efficiently. It seems that operating PER SCHOOL CAR INSTRUCTION(RULE BOOK) makes management pretty nervous when the topic is brought up(aren't we operating to rule book standards already?) it seems that selectively bending the rules to satisfy train service requirements (on time trains= bigger bonuses).
I've always felt safest operating by the rules. Common sense also plays a major role in operation. Why would anyone key a red automatic and have the train wrapped around?(moron/idiot). After accepting a call on and put the train on the post? is this person a total nut job?
does anyone remember "Restricted speed and Extreme caution"?
no faster than 10 mph
stop 2 car lengths from visible object
prepare to stop within 1/2 range of vision
prepare to make in immediate stop
speed over switches unless otherwise posted
not move past anything unsafe on track or roadbed.
I am not suggesting that you are one of these but there are plenty of guys (or women) who can quote rules but conveniently forget them when it's a matter of convenience. For example, the rocket scientist I met this morning. I was walking on 6 lead in Jamaica Yard Portal (on my way to Union Turnpike Station). Now, anyone who's ever brought a train to Jamaica knows how busy those leads can be. However, the operator relaying his (wash) train on 5 lead decided it would be faster to walk on the outside. He must have also thought that it would be faster still if he didn't wear a vest or turn on his flashlight.
One of the problems with the TA is training. It's not long enough, or comprehensive enough.
On the railroads, LIRR especially, we had to MEMORIZE, word for word certain rules and definitions. The definition of restricted speed was one of them.
Therin lies the answer for many of the collisions and derailments we have.
You also had to memorize the Physical Characteristics (PC) and draw it from memory for all 11 branches. I'm not sure that the exhaustive training required by the LIRR is as constructive as some might think.
I wish the TA had the PC training we got on the railroad. Then I'm sure we'd see a drastic reduction in things like wrong routes and train operators hitting timers.
It serves a dual purpose as well. Crews that make it through the LIRR training program have a certain amount of pride and professionalism not seen here. I believe this comes from having passed the most intensive training for rail operating personnel in the country. I had over 400 hours of classroom time on the rules and signals alone!
Then airbrake, PC, engine.
It takes 15 months to two years to qualify for the engineer certificate. When the TA cut motor...Train operator training to just 5 and half months, they not only saved money (the holy grail) they created a whole class of under trained people. Haven't you noticed the sharp rise in split switches and collisions? The facts speak for themselves.
But that's what RTO wants. The faster and cheaper we are to replace, the better it is for management. After all, how much money we earn, and more importantly, how little respect we recieve, is directly proportional, to how easily we are replaced.
If it took two years to train a train operator, do you really think that the disrespect and (no t.p. in the rest rooms, barely enough time between trips to sit down) excessive disipline (suspensions for overunning a station platform, we are all human) for minor infractions would be going on? This crap dosen't happen to airline pilots? Or Ship Captains? Or Railroad engineers. Why? Because they are HARD to replace. So TA got smart, and made us expendible. That's the long and short of it.
I agree that NYCT crews need better training. As you say, the results speak for themselves. As for the LIRR training, i still think it's overkill. Why all 11 branches at one time? Why not qualify on one branch at a time? My understanding of the LIRR system is that you get 3 chances to qualify 'ON THE PAYROLL'. The next 4 are off the payroll. There is no eighth chance. Talk about pressure.
And it's HARD. The way it's done is also like military basic training, to weed out those who can't or won't apply themselves. PC is actually easier than rules though. It's either there or it isin't.
Name the stations, draw the interlockings, that's pretty much it. Name and locate the signifigant points, like hand throws on the main. Rules in effect for the branch.
But you don't have to draw a map with the automatics, or the grade crossings. It's hard only for the sheer volume, not the detail.
I don't advocate this type of training here, but a variation is neccesary. As it is now, we don't get any PC at all. Train operators deserve more than one day on a line, with a qualified train operator. That's not enough to say: "Your'e now Qualified"
Training never tells a t/o to split switches or to wrap your train around a bumping block or to run a signal, that always comes from lack of attention what he/she is doing. FAST MOVES in yards will yield switch run throughs, derailments, and collision with bumping block. Safety stops 2 cars 50 feet and 10 feet from standing cars or bumping block would prevent plenty of accidents. FAST Moves in yards in the end results in less switchmen needed in yards. School car operation is no guarantee shit won't happen but less incidents SHould occur. All the training in the world isn't going to mean shit if a knuckle head train operator isn't paying attention to what they're doing. Especially in the yard when dropped couplers and split switches, collisions are the most common accidents.
You miss the point. It's the grueling training that weeds out the knuckle heads. All that training shows who's serious and careful. It makes you learn to appreciate your work, and love and cherish it. Because it was so damn hard to get there. Almost two years of my life. Memorizing word for word. Plastering my apartment with track maps. Working 12 hours a day 6 days a week. Day in and day out of nothing but rule 251/261. Superiority of trains, ASC, and 26 brake valve, and....and.....
After all that, only a fool would take stupid chances. Only an irresponsible child would make speed in an area where restricted speed was called for.
And safety stops are for neophytes who can't control their trains. On the railroad they're not required. As professionals, our judgement is trusted. We NEVER needed a picture of a home signal at interlockings to tell us the proper route!
Proper selection of candidates, and intensive training. It's a fourmula for success that has served the railroads well for a century. The TA chose to go the cheap route. And now to show for it, they have all these split switches and rear end collisions, and derailments.
Ask yourself, how often do you hear of these things on the LIRR?
Now if a UNION REP is saying this about his own brothers, don't you think I might have seen so much to convince me?
"The TA chose to go the cheap route. And now to show for it, they have all these split switches and rear end collisions, and derailments."
Wow, Erik, I totally agree with you. In most of your previous posts you stated that the cause of several 'incidents' was solely due to mechanical failure and mechanical tampering. Now you are saying it was due to human error on the part of RTO personnel (which I completely agree with).
Each case is different, and I shoudn't say that "all" or "every" or even "most".
The only ones that I can truthfully point to the train and say it's the cause of the problem is the Wiily-B wreck, and the rear ender on the Canarsie line.
And we all know how I feel about the accident at Steinway Street. Signal was faulty. No way in hell was that Mr. Sales' fault.
But yes, most of those split switches and minor yard collisions are squarely on the shoulders of the train operator. But then, I blame TA for not training these people properly. They need more supervised operating time. More classroom. A more comprehensive curriculum.
Do us all a favor and keep the profanity out of the posts! Strong opinions are welcome, but if you want to be taken seriously please clean up your language. You can make your point without it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree that training within NYCT isn't extensive/intensive enough, however many mishaps occur when our heads start to swell and think we can do things swifter without regard for the consequences.
I agree that training within NYCT isn't extensive/intensive enough, however many mishaps occur when our heads start to swell and think we can do things swifter without regard for the consequences. Lack of attention either through fatigue or just plain thoughtlessness I feel has and will continue to be a hazard in any safety sensitive title. There will always be someone who will lose sight of what their job is and think of some bullshit excuse for why they caused an accident...
Thank you to everyone who contributed to my question about subway cars fitted with flywheels. At the moment, there's quite a lot of interest here in the UK in using flywheel-powered electric transmissions to propel light rail/streetcar type vehicles, avoiding the need for expensive overhead traction supply wires or traction supply rails etc. I'm looking into this and was trying to find out what work has already been done. Thanks again for your help.
This one is truly amazing:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9905/11/high.speed.derailment.ap/
The interesting tidbit, though is at the end - they are going to be testing it (soon), on the NEC near princton. I wonder how long till we see it there?
Gulp!.......
There was a picture in today's Boston Herald. It looked a bit embarassing. Interestingly enough the track was recently inspected, and the speed was very low. The derailed power unit (locomotive) was on the rear end of the train too, but the whole mess stopped before any significant damage was done.
This weekend will see the Extended Jubilee Line opening to fare paying passengers between STRATFORD and NORTH GREENWICH only,most English newspapers/TV channels covering this item.Second section from North Greenwich to Westminster to open "late summer" ! and final section linking to present Jubille line by the year end.
Rob :^)
London UK
Is the Jubilee Line (including the new extension opening this weekend) served exclusively by new train equipment, or are some of the original Jubilee Line cars still in service. Have some of the original Jubileee Line cars been transferred to any other line in the system?
Jubilee line now worked by 1996 Tube stock ONLY.
Previous 1983 stock has either been:
a) batch 1 , scrapped
b) batch 2, stored for conversion to run with Piccadilly line stock
pending authorisation/funding.
c) one unit to works use
d) one driving car to Fire Department training ground.
.
The scrapping of 1983 stock is quiet frankly an outrage, something the media has been hot on for a good many months!
Regards
Rob :^)
Scrapped after 15 years is appalling, but the real stupidity though comes from when the 1983 stock was designed. They were designed at a time when Underground patronage had been in relentless decline for somewhere in the region of 25 years. Some bright spark decided that they could save some money by reducing the numbers of doors per car. The result is that it would be useless to attempt to intermix the trains with anything else in the fleet.
I suppose they could have used them to replace Bakerloo Line trains, but the increased loading and unloading times would have been unhelpful. Possibe other destinations could have included the East London Line, Waterloo and City Line, or even the Isle of Wight, but the Underground seems determined to bankrupt itself with the Jubilee Line Extension, and so scrapping a fleet of cars unnecessarily seems to be par for the course.
Wow - I'm somewhat shocked to hear of cars that new being scrapped, despite the drawbacks mentioned. Maybe this will be some helpful evidence for some of the SubTalk posters who would like to see the TA scrap the R-68's because they're so slow!
Scrapping cars just because they're slow would be foolish, especially if their reliabilty and MDBF were excellent. If the R-68s were breaking down left and right a la the R-16s, it would be a different story. I'm willing to cut some slack on behalf of the R-68s here. Sure, they're slow, but at least they're reliable.
Putting equipment out of its misery is one thing. Sending it out to premature slaughter is another. The Triplexes come to mind immediately in that regard.
Why can;t they make the R68 faster by eventually putting in higher HP motors or changing the gear ratio?
They need to put the field shunting back in on those cars. And the rest of the fleet, for that matter.
The Manhattan bridge and the Willamsburg bridge are the 2 worst bridges in the city. The are corraded, damaged, weak, why did they take so long? Thee work shoyuld have been done a couple of years ago. Even though the Manhattan bridge was worked it is still weak. One bridge might just have to be torn down and be built back up. It might take a long time but it will be worth it. Plus the subway would move faster.
You forgot the brooklyn bridge which is deteriorating in its own way. After all, they didn't install that arch under it at Pearl St for looks.
Actually, the worst bridges in the city have turned out to be the Goethals Bridge and Outerbridge Crossing on Staten Island, which meet absolutely NON of the design criteria in use for the last 50 years (the bridges are over 70 years old) However, as toll bridges, they are kept in a state of good repair.
The Manhattan and Brooklyn are the worst of the 3 lower East River crossings. The Manhattan has it's own structural failings, such as poor design and serious deterioration. The Brooklyn Bridge (which has a 3-ton weight limit, BTW) needs a redecking, which it is getting; however, to compare it to the Manhattan Bridge is like comparing a 707 to a DC3. (the DC3 being the Brooklyn)
First, the Brooklyn Bridge was not designed to carry anything NEAR what it is currently expected to carry; however, it was overengineered from the start. In the 30 years between the completion of the Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges, many technological advances were made. The Manhattan has an all-steel struture, prone to rust and high stress; the Brooklyn has stone towers that will never corrode. The 3-ton limit on the Brooklyn keeps trucks, buses, and soon, most SUVs, off, while the Manhattan Bridge has no posted weight limit.
The Williamsburg, on the other hand, after the emergency shutdown, is in a much better condition than should be expected. Most of the structural defects that were found were/are in the approach sections, not the suspended section, which means that repairs can be made using land-based machines. The currrent project that has the bridge closed to trains is replaceing the supports for the Manhattan approach with concrete peirs, rather than the steel lattice work that it was built with.
Bottom line, each bridge has its own set of problems, with its own set of solutions. And while the best (or most cost-effective long-term) solutions were chosen for the Brooklyn and Williamsburg, the cheapest, not the best, was chosen for the Manhattan.
A replacement bridge, which was the recommendation of many of the engineers who looked at the project, could have been finished already.
-Hank
The Manhattan Bridge's problems are nothing recent but stem from day one. The City Bridge Commissioner appointed in 1902 was Gustav Lindenthal and he did the design work for the Queensborough Bridge and the initial design work for the Manhattan Bridge. He advocated a suspension bridge where the cable would be suspended from nickel-steel eyebars instead of woven steel cable and a stiffining truss 55 feet above the roadway. The design won the approval of an impartial board of engineers but could not receive appropriations from the Board of Alderman. Some say this was attributed to the Roebling wire works which exerted pressure on Tammany Hall since they were the only company which could produce the wire cable while there were eleven that could make the nickel-steel eyebars. When Mayor McClellan was elected in 1904 Lindenthal was replaced by one Leon Moisieff.(This is the fellow who had something to do with a certain bridge over the Tacoma Narrows;nuff said)
Lindenthal continued to criticize the design changes made to the Manhattan Bridge as having insufficient strength to support the bridge deck. He went on to design the Hell Gate Bridge.
For a more detailed discussion of this and other city bridges read "The Bridges of New York" by Sharon Reier,Quadrant Press 1977.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So the Manhattan bridge was built in part by an engineer of the Tacoma Narrows bridge!?
I woulda thunk it, but who would guess that it'd acutally be true!!
Sometimes the truth is so crazy you have to laugh.
Hi Damian. I don't care who built the bridge. I just want it fixed so the Sea Beach can run over it and I can see the Brooklyn Bridge and lower New York harbor. I'm beginning to doubt that I'll live to see it.
While waiting for a Manhattan-bound A train this morning at Utica Avenue at about 11:30, I saw several police officers on the platform with guns drawn. About a minute later, an A train pulled in, and was held in the station for several minutes, as about a dozen more officers, some undercover and some with guns drawn, walked up and down the train peering into the windows as if they were looking for someone in particular. After several minutes, the train doors opened, and we were able to board and proceed on our way.
Does anyone know what was going on, and the reason for the police presence...it scares the shit out of you to be standing on the platform minding your own business, and all of a sudden cops come flying by you with their guns out. Out of curiosity if nothing else, I'd love to know what was going on.
A lot of weird things have been happening aroud Utica. Theres the situation with the at the IRT station on the Monday. Then Monday afternoon there was a shooting on the B46 bus by the Utca Av IRT station. I dont think that this have any correlation to this......
And on the street the other day -- in the same neighborhood there was a shooting incident on the B17 on Utica Ave. (or is this one and the same incident that you mentioned???)
Recently, I moved my family out of Astoria where we had resided for the past ten years. We now live in a very nice apartment not far from the IND's Jamaica yard.
For those of you not familiar with the area, it's off Union tpke. between the confluence of the Grand Central Parkway and the VanWyck Expressway.
There is a lake you may be familiar with. Actually two. Willow and Meadow lakes form the eastern end of Flushing Meadow Park. Jamaica yard sits on the eastern end of Willow lake.
This area is a nature preserve. It's called the "Willow lake Nature area" The lake is ringed by marsh land and there are several forms of wildlife indigenous to the site, that aren't found elsewhere in NYC.
It's a lovely and peaceful setting. Yesterday and today being my days off this week, I took my oldest, 11 year old Jennie to the park, on Monday. We saw a rabbit, phesant and a large turtle. Nice indeed.
Today, while the children were in school, I took my wife to see this. We got more than we bargained for.
The shore of the lake is difficult to reach because of the shoots and reeds. There are only a few clearings to get to it. It was at one yesterday that Jennie and I found the turtle. While looking for the particular clearing, I went into a different one instead. I was trying to find yesterday's turtle. Thank god I was ahead of my wife. Because there was no turtle this time. No.
The body of a dead woman was floating there. Naked, and decapitated. Bloated, and discolored. Apparently having been there a week or so. Thank god, my daughter didn't have to see this.
I returned to the path. I told my wife to stay there. Not to look at what I had found. I wanted to protect her fro the horror of what lay there, floating. We had to notify the police, I said.
I didn't want her to have to look at what I had seen. She get nightmares easily enough. But at first she had thought I was joking. A few minutes before we had joked about this very same subject. She insisted that I show her.
After she had seen for herself that I wasn't kidding, we followed the path up to the GCP service road. I flagged down passing cars, one by one until I found someone who had a cell phone. Within ten minutes an ambulance and the first police cruiser had arrived.
After waiting for the detectives, and being interviewed by them, we went home. My wife seems to be taking this in ok fashion. I perhaps am more rattled by it than she is.
As I sit here now and type this, she has already fallen asleep. Peacefully, I hope.
I'm not shook up by the horror of it. Yes it disturbs me, The brutality of it. But what really bothers me is that I live here. My wife walks to the supermarket, takes the bus. My sons and daughter walk to and from school, not far at all from this once tranquill and beautiful place. Next to Jamaica yard, one of my favorite places. The sound of work train horns at night, etc.
Yvette just jumped out of the bed. She claims it's nothing. I wonder, as she falls asleep again.
If anything I'm outraged. I can't wait for the animal, and I mean sub-human ANIMAL, who did this to be caught. I will be very happy to testify at his trial. Then I hope they give him that lethal injection. (thank you Gov. Pataki) What he really deserves, is what he did to that poor woman.
I'm angry. My lovely new neighborhood no longer feels the same. I feel robbed. For that, I blame the scum who did this too.
I know this is off topic. But thank you all for allowing me to excercise the evil that I feel was haunting me. The typing out of the story has helped me get it off my mind. All of you friends here at SubTalk.
If it's any consolation, chances are that the murder didn't occur in your neighborhood. Most likely, it happened elsewhere and the lake was used as a dumping ground for the body because it is isolated.
True, and then there is "the law of very big numbers." Even something that is very unlikely is bound to happen every now and then, given enough people. It doesn't mean the neighborhood is unsafe. Same thing with crime on the subway and the Colorodo Killings -- a single incident means nothing.
I don't blame you for being rattled, though. When we decided to stay in the city, my wife gave up the idea of taking up golf. At the city courses, we heard, you come upon a body every now and then.
[When we decided to stay in the city, my wife gave up the idea of taking up golf. At the city courses, we heard, you come upon a body every now and then]
Can you move your ball without penalty?
"Can you move your ball without penalty?"
Rules vary from golf course to golf course.
Back in 1990 there was a D.B. found in the sump of the 5th Hole of the Douglaston Park GC (131 yds, par 3), one gentleman I was playing with there told me; don't know if it was true or not. The ravine at the 17th Hole there (99 yds.par 3!) is also a dumping-ground for trash and solid waste when it's not filled with water, mud, reeds &c.
One of these days I will go back to DPGC and play a round there again, if I can get a tee-time. It's a par-67, 5130-yard layout; target golf throughout, with hills that would tire out a goat.
Wayne
I am the mother of the gentlemen that found the body of the poor murdered lady in Flushing Meadow PArk. I appalled to say the least. I have taken my 2 children to that park over many years.Mans Inhumanity towards man can never cease to amaze me. What is become of "us" ? I pray that no one eslse
I am the mother of the gentlemen that found the body of the poor murdered lady in Flushing Meadow PArk. I appalled to say the least. I have taken my 2 children to that park over many years.Mans Inhumanity towards man can never cease to amaze me. What is become of "us"? I pray that no one else has to ever come across such a horrible sight. Pray for our children,Pray for the mother of the poor victim.At this point there is little else to do...Keep your loved ones safe...Know where your family is and with whom....
Well, I move my balls w/o penalty, but I think it has nothing to do with the game of golf....;-)
Erik:
What day did this occur. Seems that every time I take a few days off - stuff happens. Two weeks ago, I took a few days off and when I got back, another one of my cleaners was arrested while on duty. (I'm sure you read about the first one arrested at parsons/Archer station)
BTW - My wife and I were in Lancaster County, PA for a few days and there was a shooting (murder) there on our first night. Guess we just can't escape the plague....
And not a word about it in the news media, unless I missed it.
This type of thing I'm sure is not commonplace, doesn't it deserve to be reported? No, don't sensationalize it, but mention it. The silence seems to say "This is an every day ocurrence, not worth mentioning." Well, it isn't.
Very disturbing. This is the time of year when bodies that have been in the water during the colder seasons come to the surface. In the dark humor of the police, they are called 'floaters'. One came up at Midland beach yesterday, a probable drowning. Your unfortunate find was obviously a homicide, mutilated to make identification difficult.
(And you guys with the golf jokes - sick b*stards)
Yes, we even have "dumping grounds" in Baltimore. Leakin Park in West Baltimore has been a favorite dumping spot for assorted corpses for as long as I've been around and it's still a "prime target".
One of the best, though, took place at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum a couple of years ago. It was a June Saturday, I was the Dispatcher, and all afternoon we noticed a sweetishly funny odor. I finally sent one of the trainmen up behind the Visitor Center (with a radio) to check out the back side of the building (no doors/windows on back side). He didn't call, but came back about 5 minutes later with a funny look on his face. "There's a lady on a blanket behind the building and she's not moving" he said. I called the friendly fuzz, who showed up shortly along with most of the Central District and half the Northern. The lady had a large hole on the back of her head and the cops said that the body had been there for about a week. The discovery made the local TV and the paper.
Life in the street railway biz.
Pelham Bay park in the Bronx has long been reputed to be the favorite dumping ground for sti..., er, dead bodies. Its large size and the relative isolation of many parts is apparently the reason.
"(And you guys with the golf jokes - sick b*stards)"
I not sure what you mean by "sick b*stards". In the last 17 years, I have seen more dead bodies than I care to think about. Some of them were so badly mangled by trains and/or burnt by third rails, that they were not recognizable as human forms. Some were just dead. None of it was pleasant or funny. I also don't know what turnip patch you live in but floater jokes are part os NYC culture, even portrayed in at least one "Seinfeld" episode. Now, these jokes may seem cold to you, but to those of us who deal with it on a regular or even a semi-regular basis, it helps us cope. So if you find the golf jokes offensive, please don't laugh -
<<<<<<<<<<<<< FORE <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
BRAVO! (as I reach for my trusty 4-iron). And my post wasn't even a joke, just a relating of what someone told me.
Back in 1974 I was with a group of friends and we were prowling through the inner reaches of A.P. (Alley Pond Park) in Queens at night (with flashlights); we got to one impossibly remote area (where only the wildlife normally goes) and came across the hulk of a black mid-60s Volkswagen Beetle, and sitting there behind the wheel was a skeleton! How the car and driver got there is a mystery to me.
Wayne
Wayne, I think I can go you one better as far as Douglaston Golf Course is concerned. Back in the early 60's (god - this is dating me), during the winters, that very area around te 17th hole would freeze solid. Sledding down the hills from any direction and across the frozen 'pond' was something we looked foward to each year until our flexible flyers were replaced by cars and girls. (Way off the topic now but us old guys just need to remember the good old days)....
[Sledding down the hills from any direction and across the frozen 'pond' was something we looked foward to each year until our flexible flyers were replaced by cars and girls.]
I suppose you could slide down the hills and across the pond in cars. But on girls? Ouch!!!
Left a participle dangling or something like that.
Steve, how do you do those really cool graphics? That one made me laugh so hard!
Erik,
I met your wife on the internet a few weeks ago, and
I just wanted to say that I am so sorry you had to
go through that experience.
As a wife and a mother, I can only imagine what the
family of that poor dead woman must feel. I wonder
if they even know her fate? And also, I know what
you mean about your neighborhood not feeling the
same. It is as if your entire community has been
violated by one sick individual.
After reading several of the posts following your
original, I sense an uneasiness even from the people
who have seen the same thing you have. I live in a
small town in the midwest, and it is no different
here. The local police pulled a child's body from
the river last month, and determined that he had not
only been murdered, but raped as well.
We all need to stick together and STOP these people
who have no value for human (or any other) life. If
any of you have suggestions as to how, please feel
free to tell us all.
Until then, please know that there are good people
who still care about the living. I think your wife
is a neat lady. Tell her if she needs to talk, I'm
here.
To Jean, Erik, Steve et al: I know that there is a feeling of your neighborhood not being "the same" and a sense of violation. And the loss of life is certainly a horrible and unsettling situation.
One thing that you should remember, however, is that the crime MAY NOT have been committed in your neighborhoods, but that the victim's body was dumped there after the sicko did their deed elsewhere.
I don't know if that helps anyone, but certainly don't let an incident like that stop you from enjoying your neighborhood and participating in community events. Becoming cut off from the community at large might allow other criminal activity to florish.
Just a random thought from Doug aka BMTman
I would like to thank all of you who have expressed support for me and Yvette. Thank you.
I too believe that the victim was murdered somewhere else and the remains disposed of in the lake near my home. Now that a few days have gone by, I feel better, but wary, just the same.
<who have no value for human (or any other) life. If
any of you have suggestions as to how, please feel
free to tell us all.>>
The only way to stop them is to either genetically mutate all people to change their nature. Or kill us all.
I was waiting for the uptown N this evening at Whitehall street and was looking around the station, when I saw the old conductor's board on the uptown (east) side of the center track. It had an interesting message on it: "R1-9 and R10 cars, momentary sw ON" What would that mean? (I figured sw is switch but what is it).
Mike
Hate to admit it, but I don't know. Been looking at that for years, there and at many, many other stations. I would love to know. Been wondering about it, on occasion, since about 1984.
Now what kind of "Transit Professional" am I? An imperfect one I guess. But that dosen't mean I don't my Sh@#!
IIRC,it was an energy saving ploy started in the '70's. During the winter, the "Heat & Fan" switch was to be turned on or off by the Conductor at locations indicated by these signs. Don't know why R-10's were included since the heat was thermostatically controlled.
I know having worked the R-10s there was an exterior key operated momentary switch located in the ceiling below the end signs used to turn on and off the main lights. As a motorman it would be impractical for him to turn on the lights but because the conductor is operating between cars anyway, this sticker on the conductor's board is a reminder for him/her to turn them on at the station stop preceding a tunnel. These were most noticable on the Liberty Av extension to the Fulton St line. The motormans momentarys are heat, fan, P.A. and main motor reset so there is no reason to put these stickers on the conductors boards. My logic for Whitehall St is the TA probably bought 10,000 stickers so they ordered them applied to all conductor's boards, lockers and toilets, as well as foreman's lunchboxes :-)
>My logic for Whitehall St is the TA probably
bought 10,000 stickers so they ordered them applied to all conductor's boards, lockers and toilets, as well as
foreman's lunchboxes :-) <
Much like the "Watch Your Step" stickers I've seen appearing lately everywhere from between end doors to route selector boxes...
Mike
Wasn't there a similar key switch in approximately the same location on the R-1/9s?
Wow, that brings back memories! It's a reminder to turn
on the lights. Not sure why it would be at Whitehall street
though. The R1-R14 cars had exterior "trigger and cap" door
controls and the conductor lived outside. The momentary switch
is a keyswitch located outside the car above the storm door.
Turn clockwise to apply battery voltage to the L1 trainline.
This energizes all the MLR (main light relay) in the train.
Once picked up, each MLR has a "stick circuit", i.e. a closed-
when-energized contact that locally applies battery to the
coil and keeps it energized. So, you apply "momentary" B+
and all the MLRs come up and stay up, and all the lights come on.
Turn the keyswitch the other way, and it applies GROUND to
the L1 trainline. This shorts out all the MLRs. There are a
pair of limit resistors so this momentary dead-short between
the L1 trainline (being back-fed from all the MLRs) and GROUND
doesn't blow a fuse or anything. Once you've shunted L1 this
way, all the MLRs drop out, and then stay out after you've removed
the GROUND because the stick circuit has been broken. Lights out.
What I'm unclear on is why those signs said R1-9 and R-10 only.
The R-16 has the same exterior momentary switch, as do the
R12, 14, 15, 17, 21 and 22 cars.
It's for that reason that I never thought it was that switch. I had assumed that was what the sign refered to. But R11 thru 21?
The sign in mention on the conductors board had to do with the heat/fan momentary switch. I found this out from an old time conductor (he started with the TA in 1948) that I used to work with down at Jay St. back in the early 80's. Other locations (Whitlock Ave. on the #6 line is a good example) have a sign on the conductor's board that say "lights on" or "lights off". These refer to the operation of the main light momentary switch.
Saw an article in Newsday today that stated that the reason that the old diesel coaches are still in service is because of delays with the manufacturer of the new bi-level coaches. Nothing like buying something that is the first, rather than an established car like the HOrizon cars used on Jersy Transit and MetroNorth.
Is it true that the new EMD diesels on the LIRR are limited to only pulling 4 coaches or less? If so, why?
Also, heard that when the new dual mode engines go into service they will require one at each end of the train to prevent gapping at interlockings. Is this so?
Mike H
[Also, heard that when the new dual mode engines go into service they will require one at each end of the train to prevent gapping at interlockings. Is this so?]
Yes ... true. These sets will come into Penn, but not GCT.
Also from this Tues. Newsday article by Hugo Kugiya ...
- 74 of 134 of the bilevel coaches have been delivered
- 9 of 23 of the diesel version of the engines delivered
- orig. plan for service intro was Fall '97, now end of '99
- LIRR says mfg, "... Kawasaki has given priority to another project in Maryland."
Copyright Disclaimer: Have IDed article & author & quoted less then 400 words.
Mr t__:^)
Just to add, Dual Mode needs two engines (one each end) for 3rd rail gaps. I don't understand how Amtrak engines span the same gaps with both types of their engines (Genises and F9? was it)
The C3's as the LIRR calls em are still having door problems. If it was the subway you would call it indication problems. (Happened to me on Oyster Bay for 20 minutes the Engine didn't know the door was closed).
Lower level your head is at platform level, kinda of funny to look at if ya ask me but there are pretty nice cars.
Re: Dual modes vs. Amtrak ... gap. Dual modes to Penn use third rail, Amtrak use O/H.
Re: FL9s ... Amtrak uses them from CT. I'll leave it to others to explain what the difference is to GCT. The FAs & FL9s on LIRR don't go to Penn.
Re: [pretty nice cars.] my daughter rode them several times to/from Stonybrook & had the same comment.
BTW, the engines out there now are single mode diesel (look the same as the dual modes), so they only need one, the trailer coach has controls so that they can go in reverse, but they can't come to Penn or GCT or Atlantic Ave.
P.S. How are you tours of LIRR lines going ... we (I) want a full report :-)
Mr t__:^)
You keep saying AMTRAK is overhear.
EMPIRE Service is with Third RAIL Diesl from Penn Station. THEY DO NOT HAVE TWO ENGINES. FL9's ran to and From Penn on the Empire Service before the new Genesis Engines and they have THRID RAIL OVERRUNNING SHOES.
Empire Service does not have pantagraphs. They run disel down the westside of Manhattan and switch to third rail to enter a tunnel to Penn.
WHY CAN AMTRAK USE ONE ENGINE WITH ONE THRIRD RAIL PICKUP AND LIRR CAN'T???
Oh you singed my eyebrows with the flame ....
Sorry, I'm no expert in this ... maybe Andy or someone more knowledgeable on this will provide more detail.
Question: Isn't it true that none of the Amtrak fleet out of the Sunnyside yard uses third rail ? And the FL9s from CT all went to GCT, i.e. the thru trains over the Hell Gate bridge are all O/H elect?
Mr t__:^)
WHY CAN AMTRAK USE ONE ENGINE WITH ONE THRIRD RAIL PICKUP AND LIRR CAN'T???
The Amtrak trains leaving Penn Station (Empire Service) are in the "tunnel" basically only in the station and the short stretch after crossing up and over the LIRR yard tracks.
LIRR trains will be in the tunnels from Penn Station to Long Island City, and the tunnels simply don't have the ventilation capacity.
Plus there are a heck of a lot more LIRR trains that will be using the tunnels. If Amtrak's third-rail propulsion craps out, they can just start up the diesel and there won't be too much worry about asphyxiating everyone in Penn Station after running through a couple miles of tunnel; it will just leave the station and be in open air in a few moments.
This has been a long standing problem at GCT, i.e. the engineers on the dual modes would leave it in diesel too frequently. I think the problem related to a problematic third rail mode.
Mr t__:^)
>>The Amtrak trains leaving Penn Station (Empire Service) are in the "tunnel" basically only in the station and the short stretch after
crossing up and over the LIRR yard tracks. <<
I have seen the Amtrak Diesls at Sunny Side, they have to be operating under the east river on thrid rail. Empire Coaches are serviced at Sunnyside as well. I am still wondering why the operating difference between Amtrak and LIRR to date haven't found an answer other then to bash LIRR managment.
Perhaps it's due to the frequent starts and stops they'll be making in electric territory, and they nered the better acceleration that a second locomotive would bring.
-Hank
Originally I saw the Empire Service trains in Penn operating as Diesels and idling in the station.
A Long Island Rail Road conductor I know told me (c.1992-3) that he (personally) was filing a complaint that trains in Penn were supposed to be operating under electric power only. I don't know what the authority for this was because Prof. Brennan of Columbia has researched this issue and says there is no law on requiring this.
Anyway, whatever the basis of the conductor's complaint, and whether or not it had an effect, within weeks I noticed the Empire trains leaving Sunnyside with electric power at the head end.
Paul: I too grew up with the belief that diesel power was banned from New York City subway tunnels. Remember the huge fleet of Lo-V Work Motors that were used instead of diesels. However the TA now has a very large diesel fleet for work service.
Possibly this refers to an older law banning steam engines from the tunnels and by extension it was simply assumed it included the diesels when they replaced steam.
MN uses dual power engines into GCT and most of the time now they run electric.For many years they either ran on diesel(though not officially) or an FL-9 would be teamed up with a B-23 diesel the idea being the B-23 would be shut down in the tunnel. The reverse was usually true in tha the B-23 was doing just fine and the FL-9 was deader than the 6 Av El.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The 'Military Industrial Complex' or the 60 has nothing on the MTA/Kawasaki relationship. In the 80s, Kawasaki delivered over 1,000 cars to the transit authority. What ever happened to those TA managers who let those cars get through the warranty with significant defects present? Could one be running the LIRR M of E department. Could still another be now working for kawasaki as a leadperson out at The Hillside Maintenance Facility? Anyone smell a rat here?
To compound matters further, the train that runs with the FL-9s that
passes thru Jamaica at 7:01 am has not been seen all week. I think they call this the Bi-tanic.
Hi .. Does anyone have any info on how many trackworkers will
be needed in the near future.. I'm on the list established several
weeks ago by DCAS... I heard it's a dangerous yet great job..!
Any info appreciated...
Just received the May '99 issue of "Metro" a trade monthly.
"Does High-Speed Rail Have a Future" is an article by Lenny Levine.
Incl. an overhead photo at Bombardier (Plattsburg,NY) plant of three of the new trains under construction. I thought they came in as components to be bolted togather. This shot looks like a lot of work required by folks at upstate NY plant.
A couple of quotes from the multi page article:
Alvin Toffler of "Future Shock" fame said "society is moving in directions which reduce the need for high speed rail..."
Joe Vranich said "high speed rail is being deterred by Amtrak ... redefining high-speed to mean 90 to 110 mph."
The article is worth reading and maybe on-line at:
http://www.transit-center.com
Copyright Disclaimer: Have ID publ. & author & quoted less then 400 words.
Mr t__:^)
If people in the US think High speed rail has no future, it's due more to Amtrak's inability to deliver it than anything. Remember, the origional Metroliner was going to do 150mph, back in the 60's. It never did, and was ultimately replaced by the current Amfleet / AEM-7 combo. Also remember Turbotrain, the Turboliners (saw one in Penn yesterday!), etc. Amtrak appears to be more interested in their money losing long distance trains, than on building / running the kind of point to point high speed rail that could not only be popular in the us, but profitable too. Nevermind the numerous proposed systems that have never materialized - in Texas, Florida, California, etc. I hold no hope for Acela whatsoever. In fact, I believe more than ever that Amtrak should be done away with, and replaced by an agency who's job is more to identify routes, set standards, and encourage private industry to create and run trains on such routes.
Maybe I feel this way only because my train Monday to Hartford was 1.5+ hrs late into Penn, and at least an hour late into Hartford, yet I still had to pay for it. Maybe I feel this way because Amtrak has had 20+ years to do High Speed on the NEC, and they haven't. Amtrak apparently doesn't get it. They seem to think that people takew the train in order to have some magical travel experience ("There's something about a train that magic..."). I sure don't, the majority of people out there sure don't. Most people view it as a means to get from point A to point B, quickly, reliably, comfortably. Unfortunetly, Amtrak has never been all 3 for me.
Why do my friends not take Amtrak? Simple. "It's slow" "It costs too much" "It's always late" the schedule in and out of Hartford is useless for me - often I find myself cramming into a slow bus to New Haven to get Metro-North. The service to Hartford is hardly frequent or reliable enough to be of any use to me.
I could go on. But I'm sure everyone here has heard all of this before. I firmly believe High Speeds rail - real High Speed rail - would be enormously sucessful in the US. But I also firmly believe that Amtrak is unable to deliver it, and that they should be disbanded and replaced with a better means of running the nation's intercity rail system.
Real high speed rail requires new dedicated rights of way, which would be impossible to secure in any area with enough population to make it worthwhile to run the service. It also requires massive government outlays to build, the kind Japan, Germany, France, etc., are happy to give-- but the U.S. isn't going to do that in the forseeable future. It's not a problem with Amtrak (which you blame unfairly for things that weren't its fault), it's a problem with the priorities we give to transportation modes.
And anyway, Amtrak IS pinning its hopes for survival on Acela. Rail passenger associations outside the Northeast are heavily criticizing Amtrak for spending too MUCH time and energy on the Northeast, and not enough on the long-distance trains.
>Real high speed rail requires new dedicated rights of way, which
>would be impossible to secure in any area with enough population to
>make it worthwhile to run the service.
Not really. We secure ROWs for highwaysm, we can do the same for RRs, indeed, it would be easier (cheaper) for RRs given that you don't need to secure as much land. Also, the TGV, etc, do run significant distances on traditional tracks in order to get into cities. But even though they OWN most of the NEC, Amtrak has been unable to deliver high speed rail for the last 20 or so years. Yes, I know, above New York is very curvy, but watch out the front of a Boston bound MBTA train from Providence - straight line trackage. Amtrak could have, should have, electrified this LONG ago. also note the resitriction to 125mph below NYC, because of the long obsolete catenary and power systems.
>It also requires massive
>government outlays to build, the kind Japan, Germany, France, etc.,
>are happy to give-- but the U.S. isn't going to do that in the
>forseeable future.
I'm sure private industry, with government assistance, would be willing to - HSR is profitable. Also read "Derailed - What went wrong, and what to do, about America's passenger rail system" - Amtrak has been a roadblock to a number of HSR systems.
>It's not a problem with Amtrak (which you blame unfairly for things that weren't its fault)
Sure it is. There's no reason I should have to pay for a train that's 1 and a half hours late. Amtrak owns the NEC trackage. They aren't being held for freight trains. I could excuse an occasional lateness, but Amtrak is reliably late. Apparently, they have problems, as Metro-North has better on time performance, as do many European and Japanese systems - late trains are unheard of with the TGV.
>it's a problem with the
>priorities we give to transportation modes.
That I can agree with - but, Amtrak is partly reasponsible for the anti rail attitude in this country because they've don'e such a lousey job with it.
>And anyway, Amtrak IS pinning its hopes for survival on Acela.
They have no hope for survival. They will die in 2002 once the government cuts them loose. The sooner the go, the better, as it will clear the way for a real rail revival in the US.
>Rail passenger associations outside the Northeast are heavily
>criticizing Amtrak for spending too MUCH time and energy on the
>Northeast, and not enough on the long-distance trains.
There's no hope to long distance trains. You'll never increase the ridership between NY and Chicago (for example) with the current mode of operation - it simply takes too long. Instead, Amtrak should run higher speed, point to point, overnight trains between these cites, and cater to the business traveler - Board NY at 7pm, arrive in Chicago at 7am. Do your business in Chicago, board at 7pm, arrive back in NY at 7am. Leave the slow speed "land cruise" operations to RRs that can do it better and cater to that (tiny) nich. The NY to Hartford run is an example of what's wrong with long distance trains - stopping every few minutes to let off 1 or 2 passengers at little towns in the middle of nowhere. Plenty of time is wasted at Wallingford, Meriden, and Berlin because of this.
I agree there are problems with Amtrak. I feel most of these problems are attributable to consistently underfunding it for its entire existence, and poor maintenance on the part of its predecessors.
Rather than address all the other points specifically (this isn't really NYC transit-related, after all, and I'm only an interested observer not an expert), I just want to say that I think there's a good chance that if Amtrak dies there will be no replacement passenger rail system, high-speed or otherwise, in the U.S. I rather doubt even the NEC would survive intact, given how absurdly difficult it is to coordinate interstate transportation policy (just look at the Port Authority's political struggles, or the state of CT's never-ending threats to cut Metro-North funding -- and these are with only 2 states involved!). The support for spending huge amounts of money on the kind of high-speed system Vranich envisions just isn't there right now, no matter how much you or I would like to see it.
Maybe Amtrak should die and be replaced by mass transit operations that are intrA city now, but could expand to fill a intER city need.
e.g. MTA (incl LIRR & Metro-North), NJT, SEPTA, METRA, etc.
So how would Acela be interagrated into a MTA/NJT system ... David speaks to this, i.e.
[I rather doubt even the NEC would survive intact, given how absurdly difficult it is to coordinate interstate transportation policy (just look at the Port Authority's political struggles, or the state of CT's never-ending threats to cut Metro-North funding]
So, if we throw away Amtrak would we just get it back in another form?
Lets hope the high paid suits realy want to make the system work for the public good and would it be too much to hope that they have a sincere desire to improve and expand it ?
Mr t__:^)
You might see some growth/restoration of inter-city traffic after Amtrak dies (from one city to another relatively nearby city for instance) but the long-distance lines like the Empire Builder or the Silver Meteor will disappear forever. What we'll end up with is a bunch of short, heavily used intercity corridors, but you can just kiss coast-to-coast passenger routes good-bye. IMO Amtrak is the only thing standing in the way of that future, for good or for ill.
[Rail passenger associations outside the Northeast are heavily criticizing Amtrak for spending too MUCH time and energy on the Northeast, and not enough on the long-distance trains.]
But if they can't make it work between Wash DC & Boston where they have fairly short distances & a high concentration of population, they aren't going to be able to make it work anywhere in the US !
They have to prove that they can run trains on time, at reasonable cost, and draw in new customers (away from airplanes/cars).
Long distance ... don't they do it at a profit in Europe ? To repeat what Philip said ... they just don't get it !
Mr t__:^)
They have to prove that they can run trains on time, at reasonable cost, and draw in new customers (away from airplanes/cars).
The Metroliners successfully draw customers away from airplanes for NY-DC business trips, even with its high fares. With new equipment and faster running times, I don't see why they can't do the same for NY-Boston, even with a name like Acela. :-)
Long distance ... don't they do it at a profit in Europe ?
I think only short and medium distance high-speed lines make money anywhere in the world (not counting tourist or luxury "land cruise" operations like the Orient Express), and their profits are generally used to subsidize money-losing operations elsewhere on the system. Someone feel free to point out exceptions ...
[If people in the US think High speed rail has no future, it's due more to Amtrak's inability to deliver it than anything]
[Why do my friends not take Amtrak? Simple. "It's slow" "It costs too much" "It's always late"]
Philip makes a number of points that I agree with. Amtrak use to blaim their problems on the freight railroads, but that's a tired argument. I too agree that they apparently just don't get it.
Should they be disbanded and replaced with some other govermnent agency or "for profit" operator/owner organization ? Maybe, part of the problem is the political factor, i.e. Amtrak has to keep begging Congress for money. That was suppose to end, i.e. they were suppose to become profitable. So, what's the OTHER problem ... too many blood sucking suits on the top, bad decisions, unreliable equipment, lack of union cooroperation? I'll leave it to others to comment on what the problem(s) is.
Will Acela be a success ? Not unless they've fixed most of the problems ... a new train & a new name isn't going to do it.
Mr t__:^)
1 the # of profitable passenger operations in the world(fully allocated capital as well as operationalcosts) basicaly NONE! Airlines don't pay for the flight controllers or the real estate tax losses to the localities which build airports on public land. This whole fantasy about profit is both boring and old. There isn't any because the capital costs are huge. Expecting Amtrak to make profit is like expecting a revived BMT to do so AND pay its share of fixing Manh Br. 2 Yes Amtrak is lousy both NEC and long distance--but some of us prefer to ride trains over ALL other modes of transport and will vote to "p___ money down a rat hole" rather than take the bus or the plane. 3. If Amtrak had a stable and sufficient budget and were not burdened with ridiculous contract provisions(see MBTA maintenace thread about how even if they lose a contract they have to keep paying the no longer working employees). AND had a management with both brains and drive it might could work much better. Note that as a culture, we in the US tolerate incompetence and abject failure from large parts of our society with little or no repercussions. The fantasy of capitalism is, you screw up you go bankrupt--unless you are big enough tocon the government into bailing you out. The failure rules only apply to the corner store not the chains(with rare exceptions like Caldor). Am I angry at Amtrak for its ineptitude? You bet. But with the exception of segments of the NEC thety are victims of dispatchers who can't even get their own company trains to arrive on time. And the implied attitude is even though Amtrak trains make money for the host rr's they still stiff them regularly.
David touches on many of the systematic problems that plague the rail industry.
My point related to the fact that the Washington politations don't seem to be motivated to solve these problems & put rail on an equal footing with airlines & the trucking industies. Their shortsightness prevents them from seeing the importance of rail in the nations future (passenger as well as freight). The same problem happened with US airlines that flew overseas, but that's another story.
Back to my point ... if Washington can't/won't fix it, what about regional governments. They seem to be doing a better job and taxpayers can see how it benifits them, at least the commuter segment.
But what if their role is alowed to expand, can you say interurban ?
One thing that has changed in the past hundred years is that a lot of folks don't need to go from big city to big city. They may go from big city to suburb or suburb to suburb. The current rail network can't handle that very efficently (would need to use rail & bus or loose a lot of time waiting for a connecting train).
That aside, there are still a lot more folks that are driving from suburbs to the big cities ... an expanded inter-city mass transit could serve them. This might mean the end of long haul passenger trains, but as long a freight uses these rails it could always come back.
Philip, do you think Metro-North could serve Hartford better ?
Mr t__:^)
The doors on the F train at 14th Street and 6th Ave. Open on the left, while doors in local stations seem to usually open on the right. Can anyone explain this???
I can only speculate that the position of the IND 6th Ave Line platforms at 14th Street is related to the location of the previously existing PATH station there and/or the provision that was made for the subsequent addition of the 6th Ave express tracks.
I was just there last week. It has the configuration of being an island platform but the L train is in the middle. If you take the L train to 6 Av you will see what I am talking about.... There are seperate transfer points for the Queens and Bklyn bound trains....
There are probably other places in the system where local trains have the doors open on the left for local stations. The uptown IND 8th Ave local stops beginning at 72nd St and north come to mind.
I believe that the 8th Ave Local has platforms on the left because of Central Park.
The PATH train is a good guess about 14th street but still can't quite picture the how and why of it.
I can think of 2 other stations where local trains stop where you'd traditionally expect an express:
47-50th Sts - Rockefeller Center, heading downtown. D express trains stop on the "local" side, F locals stop on the "express" side.
125th St (4/5/6) - 6 locals stop on the "express" side while 4 & 5 expresses stop on the "local" side.
--Mark
Also Utica Ave on the IRT Uptown Platform is also like that.
Kingston and Nostrand on the uptown side of the 3 is like that as well......
Also, the island platform at Grand Army Plaza on the same line.
Another unusual situation is at Nostrand/Fulton on the 'A/C'. The express platform is on the UPPER level at fare control level, and the local platform is on the LOWER leve. According to the description of the 8th Avenue Line in the TRAINS AND STATIONS section, it was built this way to make provision for a planned Bedford Avenue line.
In both other instances of separate levels for local and express service, 59/Lex and 86/Lex, the locals are on the UPPER level. Of course, this was due to the narrow width of Lexington Avenue.
>Strange platform configuration at 14th on F<
I believe this is due to the PATH station being located between the uptown and downtown tracks (the express IND tracks go under the PATH tracks if I recall). check out the description in the Line-by-Line section of this site for more info.
Mike
The PATH line was rebuilt along with the 6th Ave construction. This was the way it was designed. The 23rd st station has the platforms on the right side but also has the PATH between the tracks.
It was a conscious design decision to deal with pre-existing underground infrastructure - Water Tunnel #1. This water main of water mains was already in place when service was planned for 6th Ave. Rather than trying to move half of NYC's water supply to facilitate the subway, 14th St was built around the main, with the platform sidewalls towards the main and the track as far as possible away from it. If I can find the reference to this in my stuff, I'll post it over the weekend.
Thanks!!!
How deep is the water main under 5th Avenue??? Might a subway line run over or under the Main???
5th Ave. has never seen rail service of any kind, and most likely never will. Its Chicago counterpart, Michigan Ave., also has never seen rail service of any kind. Both thoroughfares are associated with pomp, wealth, and prestige. Not to mention NIMBYs, no doubt.
That and there's a water main running underneath it.
[(Why no subway line under 5th Avenue) That and there's a water main running underneath it.]
Which water main burst with spectacular effect near 20th Street in January 1998. Fifth Avenue was undermined to the point that a huge crater formed and gas lines exploded. In addition to damaging a number of buildings, the flooding caused temporary service disruptions over a block away on the Sixth Avenue and Broadway lines. It's safe to say that had there been a subway running under Fifth Avenue, the consequences would have been severe. Take the 1956(?) Astor Place flooding on the Broadway line, and multiply it several times.
The Astor Place flooding in - you got it right - 1956 was the result of firefighters trying to put out a major blaze at Wannamaker's. Several million gallons of water later, the subway floor on the Lex gave way; however, the I-beams between the tracks remained intact. A 6 train of R-17s was pulling into Astor Place when it happened; the first car went down. Luckily, it happened after the passengers had been evacuated. The train had gone far enough into the station so that the conductor was able to open all the doors. The 8th St. station on the BMT was flooded, but service was restored much sooner on that line. I think the Lex was repaired in a week or so.
"Its Chicago counterpart, Michigan Ave., also has never seen rail service of any kind. Both thoroughfares are associated with pomp, wealth, and prestige. Not to mention NIMBYs, no doubt."
I don't think that's a fair assessment, except for the "pomp, wealth, and prestige" part. (^: Though there is no train line UNDER Michigan Avenue, there are station entrances on Michigan Avenue for the Metra Electric/South Shore lines at their Randolph Street and VanBuren Street stations. Also, the Loop L runs parallel to Michigan Avenue one block west in Wabash.
The 1922 plan for expansion of the elevated system included a Michigan Avenue subway route. See the map of the 1922 proposals at:
http://www.suba.com/~scottn/explore/scrapbks/elevated/el_map_2.htm
I looked in, thinking you were talking about the 5th Ave el in Brooklyn. Oh well, an interesting historical transit note on 5th Ave in Manhattan was the use of the doubledecker busses on the avenue until 1949/50. I guess we have to talk to the bus historians about this subject.
"...an interesting historical transit note on 5th Ave in Manhattan was the use of the doubledecker busses on the avenue until 1949/50."
Then that would be another parallel between New York's Fifth Avenue and Chicago's Michigan Avenue. The Chicago Motor Coach Company operated double-decker buses on the boulevards of Chicago, including Michigan Boulevard, until the 1950s. This included many express bus routes that ran from the densely-populated northern neighborhoods along the lake and came together on Michigan Avenue. These routes still exist, basically, under the CTA.
While Chicago Surface Lines had the franchise from the city to operate on the streets, the Park District (separate from the city) controlled the boulevard system and gave that franchise to Chicago Motor Coach. When the CTA was created in 1947, Chicago Rapid Transit and Chicago Surface Lines were subsumed into CTA but Chicago Motor Coach survived as a separate entity for a few more years before it too was bought out by CTA.
The connection between Fifth Ave. Coach Company and Chicago Motor Coach is not accidental. Both were under the common ownership of The Omnibus Corporation for many years, and operated nearly-identical double deck buses. Both companies marketed their routes as higher class alternatives to parallel subways, els, and trolleys. In New York, Fifth Avenue's buses proclaimed "Go the Motor Coach Way"; in Chicago, "The Boulevard Route" adorned the buses. The last Chicago double deckers ran in 1950; in New York, 1953 was the last year the two level buses operated.
In 1952 CTA bought out Chicago Motor Coach. In 1954 the Omninbus Corp sold Fifth Avenue and its partner company NYC Omnibus to its local New York executives. In 1956 this groups purchased Surface Transportation. After new owners bought the combined Fifth Ave/Surface operations in 1962, a strike occurred that resulted in the formation of MABSTOA.
This probably belongs on the Bus Board - but the question was raised here..
I see my friend John Bredin the attorney is back. John, tell me about Al Capone's secret subway which was owned by the telephone company and was a freight railroad for 60 miles under chicago. It's has been said that Al Capone and his boys would escape the famous Lexington Hotel on Michigan Avenue and 22nd Street during a raid. What's doing with the restoration of the Lexington Hotel.
That's the word from Newsday. "We don't want it, we don't need it, etc." The only route they said they might consider is having the inbound LIRR (from Long Island) extended from Shea Stadium to the airport. You'd take the subway to Penn Station to Shea/Flushing, then transfer to another LIRR train. It would take, oh, about two hours.
They're hiring lawyers and consultants to sue. Key members of the City Council are on their side, and they are about to turn down the JFK link.
People also are against the existing Astoria line. If we don't extend it to the airport, I say shut it down.
Is the resistance because of:
1)The two block proposed extension of the elevated structure will permanently change those two blocks?
2)The construction will disrupt the neighborhood for a while?
Who is against the Astoria Line as it now stands? The only people I know who have lived in Astoria did so because there is direct subway access to Manhattan. Without that I'm sure property values would drop. Is this what the neighborhood wants, or what a loud minority wants?
I'm going to attend the public meeting in Manhattan on this topic tonight. I wonder what people there will have to say. Any other SubTalk people planning on attending?
Here is the URL for the meeting location and time:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/communications/meeting-lag.htm
(Is the resistance because of the proposed two-block extension). Newsday says the folks were against the vastly more expensive LIRR/BQE version as well.
(Who is against the current Astoria Line). The people who showed up. The people who use the line did not show up, just the retired civil servants who are part of the Queens political machine who couldn't care less if the city went bust tomarrow because they're on their way to Florida.
That's the problem with these public hearings. They do not represent the public.
I'm going to attend the public meeting in Manhattan on this topic tonight. I wonder what people there will have to say. Any other SubTalk people planning on attending?
Yup.
I was there, but unfortunately couldn't stay for the whole meeting. (I was the guy in the Conductor uniform, if you were there). The few people I heard seemed to be against the proposal strictly on the "it'll mess with the neighborhood" theory. Some wanted the LGA ext to come from the 7 line (as if this isn't overcrowded enough) and others from the LIRR (the long round-about way). One person, who came with charts that no one could see, had anew and different approach - stations in upper Manhattan and then suddenly stopping at LGA, no explanations of how it crossed the river. There was one conversation that I eaves-dropped on that complained there was no 3rd track at and south of Queensboro Plaza for this new service to run on. This project sounds like it will once again wither away in the course of being studied to death.
Unfortunately, the 7 route is about the only way the LaGuardia link is ever going to be built, because you can split it off at the Corona flyover and run it past Shea Stadium -- where nobody lives -- and then alongside the westbound lanes of the Grand Central next to Flushing Bay/Long Island Sound -- where only fish live (hopefully).
It's a roundabout way, and as has been posted, there isn't a hell of a lot of extra space available on the Flushing Line, even if they were to run 12-hour inbound/12 outbound express service. But the logical plan to extend the N from Astoria has just too many NIMBYs and the lawyers in the way to make it feasible for anytime in the near future.
Forget doing it over unpopulated areas - environmental impact studies!
It was mostly a parade of people with the general point of "Good idea to link LGA to the subway, just don't do it where I live." This included people living near Sunnyside yards opposing the Sunnyside option, people living near the Astoria line opposing the N extension, and people living near the Flushing line opposing any 7 train option. People also complained about poor service on the N, and several speakers suggested that no business traveler is ever going to get on a NYC subway train to get to/from the airport. Others complained that the service was aimed only at LGA-Manhattan travelers and didn't help people get to most of Queens, Brooklyn, or the Bronx. Several speakers suggested the MTA decide not to build anything to LGA at all, despite opening remarks from the MTA that "no build" has negative consequences (a point reiterated by a few of the speakers).
What surprised me was that several people actually spoke in favor of one or the other of the current MTA options. One person suggested giving residents living near the proposed N extension a tax incentive. Another supported the N extension because it stops at the Marine Air Terminal. One speaker, near the end, vehemently urged the MTA to build something-- anything at all-- to get people to LGA, criticizing the NIMBYism that most of the meeting was about.
One thing I found interesting was how several people contradicted themselves arguing against both the Astoria exension and options that only connect midtown to LaGuardia (LIRR) while still recognizing the need for a link.
Of course, the best way to give queens access to the airport would be the proposed Astoria link but no one seemed to recognize this.
i'm sure if a LIRR extension were proposed there wouldn't be as much protest as in the extension of the N to LGA. I've always thought a subway extension to La Guardia and Kennedy versus the current fad of Light Rail. A subway link would give the ONE ride needed to connect wil virtually all business and commerce in this city. A light rail or railroad connection would still mean a need to transfer to a subway or cab connection to reach ones destinationo. I'm not saying a subway link would put everyone at a persons destinations doorstep but it seems more feasible in one form or another.
Excerpt from David Chui's post:
"One speaker, near the end, vehemently urged the MTA to build something-- anything at all-- to get people to LGA, criticizing the NIMBYism that most of the meeting was about."
And I thought this NIMBYism was just a thing of Miami-Dade County in the 80's when building Metrorail, hence the reason it goes from nowhere to nowhere...
NIMBYism was born on Staten Island in the mid 70's.
-Hank
How about NIMBYs in the Boston area? I thought that the Red Line was not extended past Alewife station because of community opposition, mostly in the town of Arlington. This must have been in the 1970s. Is there anybody with knowledge of Boston or the MBTA who has any info. about this?
Hi there, Boston here.
Yes, you are correct. There is a right-of-way through Arlington out to Lexington, which had been proposed for extension of the Red Line. NIMBYism and lack-of-moneyism both killed it.
Thanks for the info. Is it true that the right-of-way is now a walking trail? I know there was a single round-trip commuter service out to Bedford until about 1977. It's too bad a DMU or diesel light rail service couldn't be developed now.
If the link doesn't stop at the Marine Terminal (where the shuttles leave from) there's really no point to building it.
-Hank
The Marine Air Terminal is the home of the Delta shuttle. The USAirways Shuttle has its home at the USAirways terminal on the east end of the airport. The point is that in order for an airport service to be effective, mass transit must stop within easy reach of all terminals.
I went to the presentation last night in midtown. It wasn't nearly the lynching that happened in Astoria on Tuesday.
I spoke with an MTA Rep off line last night and there is NO WAY they will build a branch off of the 7. The only way they could would split current service levels between the branch and the airport - halving service beyond the branch. This really isn't an option anyone will accept (except for those against the extension in Astoria).
The problem the publicly proposed LIRR option is that penn station doesn't have the capacity for frequent service and the LIRR connection to GCT is going to happen any time soon.
The MTA is now investigating two options. The Astoria exention and a branch off of the N/R after Queens Plaza that would:
Follow the norhtern edge of the Sunnyside yard and take the Amtrak right of way to the BQE West.
Fly over the the BQE West and follow the BQE east to the Grand Central Parkway - following this in to the Airport.
This alignment would use only existing ROWs and would certainly be quicker than the creaky Astoria el.
As for potential NIMBY opposition to this, anyone along this route already has either a massive highway or a rail line in their front yard so their arguements would be weaker.
Unfortunately this route would have to share 59th st tunnel with the N/R limiting service between the two. Also it's more than twice as much new track and more challenging construction. It would cost Billions more although no one would bring this up at the meeting. So if they choose this route, it will become the next 2nd ave. Subway - demand acknowledged but no money to build it.
Cheers to the man in the red shirt from Queens who got up and said I'm a queens resident and I want the Astoria exention. Just build it because doing nothing is worse.
One telling incident. The loudest opponenet of the extension at the meeting offered to give his friends in Astoria a ride because his car was parked right out front - quite a feat in Midtown at rush hour.
The separate train option is no option at all. You have 25,000 employees in the vicinity of the airport -- 50,000 trips -- and 80,000 passengers arrivals and departures. That's 130,000 trips per day -- in all directions. Assuming the subway would serve commuters from Western Queens and Manhattan, a 25 percent capture rate would be optimistic. That's 15,000 per day in each direction. At even 300 people per train, that's just 50 trains.
For a separate train you have two options. Infrequent service (every 20 minutes or so) which more than wipes out any speed benefit you get from avoiding the Astoria line. Or frequent service with very few passengers and hefty subsidies and/or high prices, which also forces you to cut service on the N/R.
As for other other options, they manage to combine high construction costs, high operating subsidies, infrequent service, and long travel times -- a virtual miracle of stupidity.
Add three or four trains per hour to the Astoria line, in contrast, and you have frequent service both to the airport and to Astoria. The travel time would be 30 to 35 minutes from LaGuardia to Times Square and 45 to 50 mintues to Lower Manhattan, hardly a long haul.
There are only two blocks of residences adjacent to the ROW. If you ignore the people demanding the removal of the existing Astoria line and spend $50 million you could give them each $500,000. If we can't do this, we might as well forget it.
If the MTA was going to do that, they might as well build a link from the E/F express tracks where it reconnects with the local at Northern Blvd. and Broadway, and follow the BQE and the Grand Central from there to LGA.
You would have three lines on the express track for a while, but that's not unique (the B/D/Q have been doing it for years) and before it got to Queens Plaza the line could split off to the 63rd St. tunnel, and share that with whatever local service to Manhattan replaces the G.
In fact, moving the Q back to the Broadway express and running it to LGA via 63rd St. would probably make the line more attractive, since it would be an express run from the airport into midtown Manhattan.
Or you can connect the Northern Blvd Express track to the Sunnyside tracks -- adjacent to it -- and you don't need the 63 Street tunnel.
How can you say to shut down the Astoria line? Why don't we shut down your subway line? I bet you don't live in Astoria. This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a while on Subtalk.
The N line is vital to the Astoria neighborhood. The trains are crowded almost 24 hours a day, demonstrating how many people use the line. Imagine if we all had to trek up to Steinway for the R train - it's crowded enough already and I really don't think it could stand all of the N passengers too. And I wish people would stop bitching about how crowded the #7 line is because due to the increased number of trains, it's always less crowded than the N train.
-----> Here's my idea for the LaG link - let's make the N train an underground train and extend it to LaG underground. Yes, the construction would be disruptive, but it would only be a few years and in the end, it would make everyone happy because the el would be gone. Plus, you could continue service on the el while its underground counterpart was being built.
(Let's put the whole Astoria Line underground) And I know how to pay for it -- eliminate public education in Brooklyn, or at least in those parts of Brooklyn which are not predominantly white. Either that, or let's eliminate subway service in part of Brooklyn.
You know I'm sick and tired of the "winners" being the "whiners" in this city. It's going to come around, believe me. And I'll be here with a load of data to show some future poltico that what ever unfairness they do is justified by the past.
[(Let's put the whole Astoria Line underground) And I know how to pay for it -- eliminate public education in Brooklyn, or at least in those parts of Brooklyn which are not predominantly white.]
Isn't that the (unstated) goal of the mayor's voucher proposal?
[Either that, or let's eliminate subway service in part of Brooklyn.]
Given the condition of the Manhattan Bridge, that probably will happen soon enough ...
Has anyone been able to find any of the new ones in any place other than the Transit Museum Gift Shops? So far I have only been able to get one of the 7 (Brooklyn - green version.
I went to about a dozen of the stores listed by the MTA that in the lower Manhattan area where I work. The only one that these stores have is the Cloisters holder.
I asked several of the shopkeepers as to why they don't have the new ones. The answer was basically the same each time: No one has come in to buy the one they have so they have not ordered any new ones.
Somehow I think the MTA blew it this time. They should have let CitySearch sell them like they are doing with the Subway theme cards.
This is my first time on subtalk & I have been reading the Express Expansion Service that other people put on subtalk but I would really like to know something & I also heard that you work for NYCT Operations Planning for subways, I would like to know on when F express service will be returning in Brooklyn, it seems that this was promised to riders this entire decade but this promise was broken & I heard that riders in Carroll Gardens don't want half of locals bypassing their stop at Carroll St, well if the proposed F express service was not done because of this, well, this is not fair to riders in Southern Brooklyn who have to deal with a longer commute & Carroll Gardens residents are only & few stops away from Manhattan so do F train riders in Southern Brooklyn a favor, restore the express service, this could relieve overcrowing on the Brighton line, relieve traffic congestion on the Prospect Expressway & with the Manhattan Bridge issues.
I would like to know on when F express service in Brooklyn will be restored & the main reasons on why it wasn't restored or can it be restored as part of the NYSDOT Gowanus Expressway transit mitigation project. Please post on subtalk.
Sincerely,
Timothy
I think the last time someone ask him that question, he said there are no plans for a Culver express.
Yes, and I explained, in detail, why.
You expect a lot of things to happen just to save 5 minutes in running time which will inconvenience a lot of your fellow riders.
Hey isn't the difference between the 7 local and Express all of 3 minutes?
Bill,
It's a bit more than 5 minutes - the last time I was on a train using the express tracks between Jay and Church, the time saved was between 7 1/2 and 8 minutes. While that does not sound like much, it is enough of a difference to encourage people to use the severely overcrowded Brighton line instead, thereby inconveniencing all those riders. Additionally, while having their stops skipped by some trains may incovenience some residents of Carrol Gardens (sniff, sniff), their insistance on special treatment (the effective abandonment of a perfectly servicable express line to decrease their wait time), has inconvenienced the entire population of a large swath of South Brooklyn for the past several decades. Forgive me if I sound a bit (or more than a bit) unsympathetic, but as one of those inconvenienced, this is a pet peve. While I do know that you are obviously better versed technically than I am, I disagree with you rather strongly on this point.
Sir, I agree, whole heartedly, however, it ain't happening. The political clout just isin't there. I'd like to see the G run to Church Av. too. This would give G crews a place to get off the train and rest, use the bathroom, etc. Also the lower level relay tracks would allow storage of the extra equipment not used outside of the rush hours. But it would lengthen the trip, and the TA would need a few extra crews, God forbid. And that COSTS.
Like I said. It ain't happening.
What do you mean extra crews??
G is goin OPTO 24/7 when they cut back to Court Square. With the cut back there should be enough crews since they aren't going all the way out to 71st.
Can G run OPTO past Smith/9th? Don't recall the stations and if they are on curve or incline. If the had to install TV's then they woulnd't do it. That would help the operating crew.
The B of T blew-it in 1940 with the closing of the World's Fair Railroad. The World's Fail Terminal station could have used as park n' ride and extended to LaGuardia Airport (North Beach). Boy were they stupid.
I'll bet Robert Moses had something to do with it.
Good thought, you are probably right that the Great Robert Moses had something to do with that.
Yes he did. Moses was at the height of his power from the late 30s until the early 60s, and the Van Wyck was built to link the new Idlewild Airport to the already-built Whitestone Bridge. Moses loved building bridges and hated tunnels, since nobody could see those monuments of engineering, and came up with the parkway system back in the 20s so people go out Sunday driving from the city into the lovely countryside of Long Island and Westchester County. Then as more people moved out into the lovely countryside and used those roads to commute into Manhattan five days a week, they had to build more roads, and then more roads, and there wasn't much thought given to extending the subway anywhere during that time.
In the face of the power that Moses exercised, you can't blame the Board of Transportation
Don't forget that Moses refused to allow the reopening of the IND line to the unauthorized 'World's Fair' in 1964-65, using some of the right-of-way for his highway projects. He was also responsible, as highway coordinator after WWII, for narrowing the median strip on the VanWyck from the Board of Transportation proposal of around 50' down to the 8' or so it it is now, so the two subway tracks coming from Queens Boulevard could never be built.
Let's take back two lanes from the rubber-tired crowd and put tracks down the center of the Van Wyck and call them the "Robert Moses Memorial Transitway" so he's got another good excuse to turn over in his grave or urn or wherever he is.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
[Don't forget that Moses refused to allow the reopening of the IND line to the unauthorized 'World's Fair' in 1964-65, using some of the right-of-way for his highway projects. He was also responsible, as highway coordinator after WWII, for narrowing the median strip on the VanWyck from the Board of Transportation proposal of around 50' down to the 8' or so it it is now, so the two subway tracks coming from Queens Boulevard could never be built.]
Were there ever serious plans to build a temporary IND line to the 1964-65 World's Fair? It would seem to be that the demand just wouldn't be there, as in the 25 years since the prior Fair there had been such an enormous growth in suburbanization and auto use.
There was discussion in general around the City at the time of the'64-'65 Moses Fair about reopening the IND World's Fair line; probably a check of the newspapers at the time would show the progress of those discussions. But aside from whether suburbanization and increased use of automobiles precluded the need for it, Moses simply would not allow it. He did permit enlarging the Flushing and LIRR stations, but grabbed the old IND R-O-W for his highways.
If you look at the history of the highways in that area, he built a huge complex of multi-lane highways around the Fairgrounds, but they narrowed into the older routes as soon as you got away from the Fair. That provided an excuse for more reconstruction and widening with the result that more cars started using the newer roads, creating a need for more highways so that more cars could use them, etc., etc.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
(Highways generate trips). People bought cars because they could, but the share of NYC households with autos in unchanged since 1960.
You can also blame Robert Moses, in part, for the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn in 1957. O'Malley (whom I still hate) wanted to build a new ballpark adjacent to the LIRR Atlantic terminal with private funds. He thought that fans would be able to take the IRT, BMT, IND, LIRR and numerous bus lines to the new park. It was a great location at that time. Of course, Moses hated mass transit, especially the LIRR, and saw to it (with the fecklessness of Mayor Wagner) that this would never see the light of day.
It is interesting that the site that O'Mally sought (the old meat -packing establishments site) would lie fallow until the mid-90's. And that is the rest of the story.
Carl M.
I'm suprised that most leads out of yards point towards Manhattan. I would have thought they'd point to the outer terminal of the line so a train could begin its first trip of the day without having to reverse twice (ditto for returning to the yard after the last trip).
Or do most trains originate from a midpoint station?
Bill
Most yard leads are not at the end of the line but are usually closer than not. The two notable exceptions I can think of are livonia Yard which is at the end of the livonia Line and Stillwell yard which is at the end of the D/Q. Most of the yard leads do point in the direction of the farthest terminal although some (like Jamaica and Pitkin) have leads in both directions. The curious thing is that some yard leads, like Corona, point in an illogical direction since every move in and out of main st. to the yard must be a reverse move.
The Concourse yard also had leads that go either direction.
Having the leads point toward Manhattan is VERY logical. Not all the passengers board at the one, two, or more stations further out than the yard. Trains that are already in service can pick up the majority of the loads at the outlying stations, while a put-in train can start fresh further in and lighten the loads, and keep everything more on schedule.
I can't imagine how I forgot Concourse yard - a place I have a real passion for. Back to the issue: Unfortunately, from an operations standpoint, most yard leads are facing the wrong direction. A #7 train leaving the yard and going into service at Main St. must come up the lead, change directions and go into Main Street. Unless the trains are 'double ended' or go into service somewhere mid-line, this is very inefficient. As bad as this is, it's worse when it comes time to lay up trains. Every train that's layed up in Corona must be a reverse move. The 'Conga Line to get into the yard can be horrendous on a day when the Railroad is bad. By contrast, a train leaving Livonia Yard must pass through the terminal. Yards like Jamaica give the most flexibility. If you go out on 9 or 10 leads, you go to Parsons/Archer or 179th St while if you go out on 5 or 6 lead, you go to Continental Ave.
During the morning rush, there are a number of 7 trains that drop out at 111th St and go straight into the yard. I would imagine that the same thing happens again during the PM rush, as well as some runs that terminate at Willets Pt.
Yes indeed-
Most local trains during the pm rush hour terminate @ Willets pt.
well one could also say that 240th yard and Mosholu yards also have leads towards the city and for most part many put ins relay at either 238th st or Bedford Park respectively. same for 239st yard many trains at this location relay at 238st W.P road and pulled back into 241 st. Many 5 trains out of 239 yard weekdays go inservice at 238th st WP road. Its true that a put in a couple of stations ahead of a terminal will lighten a rush hour load since many terminals end in bumping blocks which at times backs up the road. At New Lots putins from the yard are many and in some cases trains from the road are relayed into Livonia yard to unclog the terminal.
2 and 5 trains use the Livonia yard in the morning and evening rush hours. It is easier to get back on the road and besides, no yards at the Bush
Thats also the same for Westchester Sqaure. One lead points to manhattan which during the week is for Parkchester Put ins and one lead faceing Pelham Bay Park.
There was a TV show on the TLC channel on NYCT last. They said the Control Center depicted at Jay Street is High Tech. The current Control Center does not control any interlockings and only a few locations on the IRT indicate track circuit indications. It's a joke.
I was just on a site with a photograph captioned "Women's subway car, NYC". It was an old photo(the car had ceiling fans). This used to be the system in NYC?
The Hudson and Manhattan Railroad (H & M) , presently the PATH, had a car exclusively for women. This was just after it opened in 1908. The IRT, BMT or IND never had cars for exclusively for women like the H & M.
The IRT supposedly had cars exclusively for women when it first opened in 1904. I don't know how long this lasted.
Bob Sklar
was there any trains out yesterday (5/11) and today (5/12) by bay ridge? because I saw 2 buses that said subway shuttle on their destination sign.
laterz
blackdevl
Looking for lamps,old R1- R6 fans, ETC... header dest signs etc ,
or even a front clip of any car w/front door and glass and maybe with a motor mans cab and hardware. and if anyone knows whens the
next scraping? and of the next car type ?
Thank you in advance for any info.......
Any chance that some technical research was done to make such a scenerio plausible?
Also, does anyone know if full-scale (ala "The Fugitive") or miniature trains are going to be used during the wreckage scenes in this flick?
It's TV!!! 10 to 1 there will be NO accuracy during at least 45 minutes of the show. The pre-press is lurid, because it's a SWEEPS MONTH!!
What I find funny is that GE can never seem to understand why any US utilities want to buy their nice (and safe) nuclear power plants. Meanwhile, NBC is busy airing nuclear disaster movies.
It's MAY SWEEPS, this is when TV advertising rates are set for next season (they compare it to November Sweeps).
I don't know what to do since I'll be working Sunday, I have two VCR's, do I tape Train, Joan Arc and/or XFiles??
Tape Joan and the X-Files, then call in sick.
Now, Steve, how would you like it if some of YOUR guys called in sick, that's why I have 3 TV's &VCR's ;~) OVERTIME RULES!
Actually, GE DID get the miniseries sanitized, the train's cargo is now hazardous waste, freedom of the press belongs to he who owns one Big Brother is a toothless tiger, FEAR big business.
Which "Fugitive" ? The TV show used models and MAD magazine even did a spoof of that where the cartoon panel showed 3-rail track complete with "lockon" while the movie used some NICE large scale models for the actual collision scene and used carefully placed loco hulks (Courtesy of Norfolk Southern) for the aftermath scenes
It appears that DRPA will be boosting PATCO fares this year, the first since 1983. More details will follow.
Of course, the line remains a bargain. And, if you know the trick, you can railfan it on a round trip ride for a one-way fare.
What will the new fare structure be?
They want to up the fare from $1.20 from CC to Lindenwold, to $1.40.
The tolls on four area bridges owned by the Delaware River Port Authority(DRPA) will go up too(including the Ben Franklin Bridge).
The details on the hike are not ironed out just yet but word is that it may include 3 small hikes over three years. The bridge tolls are proposed to jump from the current $2 to $3 round trip but the coming EZ Pass will reduce this for frequent users.
I'm not sure of the current fare structure but the Center City to Lindenwold one way hasn't been $1.20 for some time. It's more like $1.80 if memory serves me correctly.
Is the trick to purchse a one way ticket within Phila only, ride to one end of the line, remain within the turnstile area, and then return to a Center City Phila station?
From my experience, remaining within the turnstile area is easy - the last time I took PATCO, I was trapped for 10 minutes in the system because the turnstile wouldn't take my farecard. Didn't wanna jump the turnstile because I figured that would just somehow get me thrown in jail. I guess the charge would be unauthorized exit?
The trick is to purchase a one-way fare and ride anywhere as long as you like as long as, when you exit, you don't use the same station that you entered (NOT the same turnstile or same station entrance - the same STATION). For example, you could buy a Phila-only ticket (75 cents) at 8th-Market, ride to Lindenwold, stay on the train and ride back to Phila and exit at any of the other 3 Phila stops. If you try to exit at 8th-Market, you'll get caught by the system. Some folks used to think if you used a different turnstile bank you could circumvent this, but don't count on it.
By the way, I wouldn't recommend this for several reasons, the foremost being that we, as railfans, should always follow the rules and do the right thing. PATCO itself, however, promoted this many times in the past as a way to see the Delaware River waterfront (not lately).
I went on another railfan trip today. Sort of..... I went to visit a friend. She lived in the Bx and I lived in Brooklyn so it turned out to be a railfan trip. Took the 3 R62A# 1961 no railfan view. At Utica, there was 2 waiting on the express track but it was going local. Took it to Nevins where I picked up a 5. R26 #7833. I was so excited. My first Bronx thru express. Rode through Lex. Then got to 3Av. I couldt wait. The expree run s real nice. I just wish I did not have to get off to change back to a 2. There was some kind of trackwork on the express track. Got off @ 225. Return on R33 #9146. This train had a #6 route map inside. Thru the Bx, three 4 trains and three 3 trains on the exprees track. Change at 135 and took 3 all the way home. The Lenox stations look good, especially 110 with the mosaic painting. The express run between 72 and 42 was excellent except for the timer at 50. Safety comes first!! The run from 34 to 14 was good. We clocked 42mph before entering 14. Passed through Park Pl. Yhe side walls looked done. Major track work between Atlantic and Franklin . The elevated structure on Livonia is getting rehabilited.
1. What is going on on the express track between E.180 and 241?
2. Waht are 3 and 4 trains doing on the White Plains Rd line?
3. How come at Jackson Av, the signals are very close to each other?
Hi Mike! I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability...
1. What is going on on the express track between E.180 and 241?
What you've probably seen appears to be trackwork on m track but is really not. The TA contractors are beginning to replace the aging IRT signal system north of 180 St to the bumping blocks at 241 St. This work is on all three tracks, not just the express track. Eventually the line south of 180 St to 149 St Grand Concourse will get the same treatment. Didn't you notice the new track circuit devices that are starting to pop up where the new signals are to be located? Also take note that 180 St Shop is completed. The shop sports a new logo featuring what appears to be the R110B. It's time to bring those R142s in!
2. Waht are 3 and 4 trains doing on the White Plains Rd line?
The 3 and 4 trains that you spotted on the White Plains Rd line there because they were either going to or coming from the car wash located in the 239 St Yard. This is a common site because these lines don't have their own car washes in their respective train yards (Mosholu, Lenox, Livonia) so they often travel elsewhere. You might even see an occasional 3 or 4 train travelling to Westchester Yard on the 6.
3. How come at Jackson Av, the signals are very close to each other?
I live right next to the Jackson Av train station, so I'll attempt to answer this one (I have a great view of the el and it's train station from my apartment window). Let me see... The way I see it, the reason the signals are so close to each other is that there were three junctions in this location (one of which doesn't exist anymore). First there's a crossover between Jackson and Prospect (the middle track to soutbound local). Second, the middle track ends south of Jackson and feeds into uptown and downtwon tracks. Third, there is a non existent junction between Jackson and 3rd Avs. Trains travelling from this line either continued into the subway to Brooklyn or continued on an el headed to Manhattan via 2nd and 3rd Avs. Some, if not all, 2nd Av trains coming from Manhattan terminated at Freeman St. The 2nd Av El ceased operating to the Bronx in 1940. Then some 3rd Av el service then operated to Freeman St until 1946, when the connection was formally abandoned.
The West Farms El (2 and 5 lines) is unusual in that it actually opened separately from the first subway in November 1904 (it is considered an extension of the subway line, not of the original elevated system). The West Farms line was operated as a branch of the el system until the Harlem River Connection with the Lenox Av line opened in July 1905. As I said before, the connection remained until 1946 with various services running over it.
The numerous signals you see are there as a measure of enforcing speed limits through the area. The signal configuration will change somewhat when it comes time to install the new signal blocks sometime in the near future.
Keep on Railfanning!
Constantine
There is no Mosholu yard. I think you are talking about Jerome.
It is called Mosholu Yard on the No.4 Line. You must be thinking of Concourse Yard on the IND.
I thought it was called Jerome also......
Everyone gets this Yard mixed up and I can see why. Because its not by Mosholu. Its in a bulding right about at 205 Street. But on the Job Assignments it say's Report at Moshulu Yard on the jobs that start out of the Yard. Now Control Center and Crews refur to the Tower at 205 Tower. Anyway Jerome Yard is a good name but the Assignmet sheets call it Moshulu. I got to check the web site to see if it also got the offical name.
I forgot to mention that E.180St house do look good. I saw it from the side and did not see the logo. I also observe the seperate tracks @ West Farms Sq. Are they going to bring back the express run bet 180 and Gun Hill RD/241? Also is it the 2 or 5 that run through the yard?
3train#2119Mike writes:
I also observe the seperate tracks @ West Farms Sq.
-Mike, what do you mean by separate?
Are they going to bring back the express run bet 180 and Gun Hill RD/241?
-Not that I know of. Patronage must warrant the utilization of the express track for passenger service. I don't think that there is enough ridership on White Plains Rd to warrant this kind of service.
Also is it the 2 or 5 that run through the yard?
-Actually, they both run through the yard. Southbound 2 trains have the option of entering track A (the yard lead) after leaving Bronx Park East. The 2 makes a quick run through the yard before heading back onto the mainline and proceeding into 180 St. During a General Order this route might be used, or even during the morning rush hour to get those 2 and 5 trains into 180 St to get downtown quickly. The northbound 5 has the option of running through Unionport Yard (on the side of the northbound 2 and 5) and then heading up to Dyre. I don't think that the yard lead has been utilized for passanger trains, but as always yard moves can enter from either side of Unionport.
Cheers,
Constantine
The separate tracks that you speak of was the original Contract I route to the 180 St-Bronx Park Station. It was originally envisioned that the line would continue north via Boston Road through Bronx Park joining White Plains Rd in the vicinity of what is now Pelham Parkway.
However the zoo management led by the director William Temple Hornaday
raised strong objections to having rapid transit trains running through the pastoral zoo surroundings. So when the time came for the Contact III extension to 241 St the IRT constructed the present line which swings east and then goes north to East 180 St. This left the 180 St-Bronx Pk terminal as a stub end and it was closed in 1952.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Right. And the 3rd Avenue El also had a spur going to Bronx Park. Did that spur end in front of the Botanical Garden entrance? I've read there was a yard located somwehere in the vicinity in which cars would be brought to the ground by a car elevator. As I recall, this Bronx Park spur closed one year before the Contract One terminal (1951). It makes me wonder if during the Dual Contracts, those folks in the IRT and Manhattan El system had even considered extending the 3rd Av el over that portion of Bronx Park towards White Plains Rd in a similar manner that the Contract One line had been planned for.
Any thoughts?
-Constantine
The station that you refer to was the original terminal of the Suburban Line of the Manhattan Railway opened in 1902. There was a small three track yard underneath the structure and to the east of the NYCRR Harlem Division. The yard was used for storage of the Open Trailers (car #1219-1254) from about 1902 to 1917/18 during the winter months. I do not believe that it would have been possible to extend operations north from this point as by this time the New York Botanical Gardens was already occupying its present site.
The situation on the other side of the park was different for the Contract I station. Boston Road was open to horse and vehicular traffic throughout the length of the Bronx Zoo until the late 40's/early 50's. At that time there were no animals located east of Boston Rd and the area was just parkland. However their were animals quartered to the west of Boston Rd most especially the zoo's large Buffalo herd which in those days occupied most of the southern third of the zoo. The zoo authorities were concerned about the noise from frequent subway trains and their point of view prevailed.
When the 3 Avenue Line was extended north from Fordham Rd in 1920 it was routed via Webster Av thereby creating another stub end terminal.
The 3 Avenue Bornx Park Station ended I believe a little south of Bedford Park Blvd and Garden visitors had to wlak norht to the "Moshoulu Gate" of the Garden which is accross from the NYCRR Botanical Garden Station.
Sorry for the long post
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thank You! No sorry's for the long post needed. It's always nice to learn a little more history....
I had no idea that Boston Road continued through the zoo. This clears up some questions I had about this part of the Contract One Route.
Again Thanks,
Constantine
Hey Mike this weekend is perfict IRT Fan trip weekend. If your rideing the No.2 or No.5 trains. THERE are some service changes this weekend. No 5 TRAINS go regular Downtown but run as a Uptown No.2 from Chambers Street to 149 Street-GC. No 2 Train will run Uptown on the Lex Line running as a No.5 Train. No.3 trains are only running from 148 Street to Times Square. No.4 trains will go to New Lots at least every other train if that GO on the New Lots Line is still going. Now the part I'm geting mixed up about is the Genaral Order states Downtown No.2 trains will go from Chambers to Bowling Green and then someone else get on board and takes the train to Brooklyn.
This Genaral Order seems confuseing to me so I hate to know how the Passangers are going to take it. I will reread the GO to make sure I left Nothing out.
Let me know something. I would to take the 2 from Chambers to Bowling Green..... Are you wrking this weekend?
Yes but I do not no my Schedule yet. When theres a GO we run on a Supplerment Schedule. Last weekend I only did one trip and it was way off the my Regular Schedule. Also Since I work at Van Courtland On Friday I wouldn't no the Schedule. Lets try our meeting next Saturday.
Yankee's are home this weekend. If they are cutting service on the 4, that might up the crowds.
They may have to send No.4 Trains around the City Hall Loop to aviod Crowd Conditions.
There's always South Ferry, too.
Too much conjestion with the No.2 and No.5 useing the South Ferry loop to switch routes.
You're right. I forgot about the GO.
Next Weekend sounds like a good idea. Email me and let me know.......
Next Weekend sounds like a good idea. Email me and let me
know.......
That means this Saturday I will be in line for a fine old R26 or R28 on the uptown #2 from Penn Station to E Tremont, which, if I read your G.O. correct, will be a #5 running as a #2. I like the interiors better on the R26/R28 as opposed to the whitewash on the R33. Who painted those fan covers anyway - pretty sloppy. They left brush-marks and they are peeling like an R16.
Wayne
Give my regards to our beloved Redbirds. It looks as if they'll still be around this October when I'm slated to be in the city.
Oh you know I love Redbirds - I'm sentimental for them, of course, as I rode them (when they were a different red) throughout my early subway rides. They are great trains, with a fine RF window. The interiors, of the R33, as I have mentioned before, the ceilings were painted white and the fan blower covers (where the A/C comes out of) were pretty sloppily painted. On the other hand, the R26 and R28 have all-beige interiors and the ceiling components appear to be baked enamel. Pretty spiffy. And the R28s aren't quite as rusty as the R26s or R29s. The R33s have had their rusts mended.
Wayne
I remember the Redbirds in their original red livery, too; however, I rode on the IRT very, very infrequently prior to 1970, and for the next few years the only time I would ever ride on that division was on a 7 out to Shea Stadium. No particular reason except there was no real need to do so. Then again, I got my thrills on the CPW express dash, thanks to the R-10s and the A train.
Remember there will be the Delays on the No.1,2,5, because the No.2 will come from the loop to Lex Line AND The No.5 will go throw the Loop to 7 Ave and with No.1 makeing a Staion Stop at South Ferry waiting for the Tourist to get out of the Last 5 cars. One note the No.2 and No.5 will pass South Ferry on the No.1 Line track because to go up 7 Ave the No.5 takes the switch before the station and to go to Lex the Switch is after the station.
Pelham Bay Dave writes:
Remember there will be the Delays on the No.1,2,5, because the No.2 will come from the loop to Lex Line AND The No.5 will go throw the Loop to 7 Ave.
-No sir. You better check the GO again. The GO for the 2 takes place over night when there are no 5s to run on 7th Avenue. Anyway, there would be too much congestion if the 1,2, and 5 had to run into South Ferry together.
Cheers,
Constantine
I have currected that. There are so many GO'S On this I'm getting mixed up. All I know is I am Not affected because it will be on Sunday. Next weekend is when thing get real Interesting. I won't post that intil I get all the Details.
So what's going to be happening at about 9:15AM tomorrow - #2s or #5s?
Can I get from 34-Penn Station to East Tremont without going to China?
GO's - a necessary evil. Progress, progress, dig we must &c.
I do hope nothing's happening out on the "A" train in Brooklyn...
Wayne
I read your post a little bit late, but nevertheless, thanks for posting info on the GO. Keep me informed of anything going on since I live along the 2 line...
Cheers,
Constantine
No Problem I try to do my best to make sure you guys know what is happening. I looked at the MTA-NYCT web site and there is nothing on this.
There is a GO on the Livonia line today until 7pm. Shuttle service to Utica, then 3 to Nevins for the 4. They are using one track except at Junius where the shuttle switch to the New Lots track wait for the other shuttle to pass and then switch back to the Manhattan track. The switch is right on my block. They are working on the elevated structure by Penn Av. Replacing beams and so forth. This has been going on all week so far......
Nothing but 4's to New Lots.........
Dave,
The last time I worked this kind of General Order the train runs non-stop from Chambers to Wall St. The crew that brought the train north into the station drops back one interval and the waiting crew takes the train south into Brooklyn. This setup gets the train out of the station quickly, as the waiting Train Operator is already at the south end. The train wrong rails out of Wall Street and crosses over to the south-bound track just south of Wall Street. Don't forget to stop at Bowling Green heading South. I had a Train Operator who did not stop, luckly it was one in the morning and no one seemed to care. It's great fun to watch the passangers as they try to figure out how we are going to get to Brooklyn.
Have Fun,
Michael
Isn't the South Ferry loop involved in any of this? I seem to recall that 2 trains come into the loop the way 1/9 trains do, then are switched over to the inner loop track once they leave the station. This gets them to Bowling Green.
Thanks Michael,
I never did this GO before. Thanks for the Help.
Here's a thought: if the 5 is being turned around at South Ferry, and if most 5 trains are Redbirds, will they be signed up as such, front and sides?
When the No.5 Get to Bowling Green. the Next stop will be Chambers Street. The No.5 will swich to the No.1 Line tracks before the South Ferry Station. The No.5 will bypass South Ferry.
I would love to be on a 5 train as it makes the maneuver from Bowling Green, to the South Ferry loop, and heads back uptown on the West Side. I don't suppose this will last until October, will it?
No only a One day GO. Maybe it will happen again some other time. I did that GO on the No.5 Line about 7 Years ago. The only diffrents was they made us stop at South Ferry then Chambers. It was a fun time on the IRT. Since I have Sunday's off I couldn't join the Fun.
The ex CNJRR ferry 'Elizabeth' is now a Hooters' Restaurant moored on the west shore of the Delaware River just north of the Ben Frank Bridge in Philadelphia. There is a second ferry moored some distance north of her. Does anyone know the name of this boat? Is it possible that is the 'Miss New York' late of Bridgeport and the Staten Island Ferry?
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
The three boats of the MISS NEW YORK class built in 1933 are:
- MARY MURRAY - currently (well as of the last time that I checked) on the Raritan River near the NJ Tpke. She was being used for storage and someone put a roll door on her side to facility it.
- GOLD STAR MOTHER - was used as a methadone treatment center in the early 70's. This angered the mothers who the boat was named for, and this was quite understandable! She was scrapped.
- MISS NEW YORK - was bought by the owner of the BINGHAMPTON - a very successful restaurant on the Hudson at Edgewater. Nothing was done with her for quite a while. She was tied up on the Jersey side of the Hudson across from about 96th St. She was listing something awful. Last trip down the Henry Hudson, she wasn't there. My guess is that she sank - but I cannot confirm this. If someone can help me out on this one, please do!
Chip
Speaking of retired SI Ferry boats: The Verrazano was tied up for a while at the Brooklyn Navy Yard visible from the WillyB. It is not there any longer. Where is it?
If I recall correctly, "Gold Star Mother" is a reference to the gold star flag that one placed in their front window if a member of the family died in military service during World War II (a blue star symbolizing that a family member was in the military). So, if the "Gold Star Mother" was built in 1933, what was it called before it was renamed, and when was the name changed?
[If I recall correctly, "Gold Star Mother" is a reference to the gold star flag that one placed in their front window if a member of the family died in military service during World War II (a blue star symbolizing that a family member was in the military). So, if the "Gold Star Mother" was built in 1933, what was it called before it was renamed, and when was the name changed?]
I believe the term was first used during World War I.
The Miss New York Class was built in 1938, not 1933. The Knickerbocker and the Dongan Hills (the last boats with the high smokestacks) were built in 1929.
The term "Gold Star Mother" refers to any mother who lost a son (guess that it would be a child these days) during war. It became popular during WWI, hence the GOLD STAR MOTHER was named appropriately in 1933.
Chip
Today's NY Newsday had a small article about the find.
Someone had mentioned that there was no news coverage. There was a young reporter from Newsday, who had briefly interviewed me and my wife. Also, very quickly after the Police had showed up, there was a man with a video camera and a very conspicuious police scanner on his belt. That vulture only hung around for awhile. He left when he saw there was no sensational story to be found.
Steve, all this happened on Monday and Tuesday. Or yesterday and the day before. 5/10 and 5/11
In the NY Post Thursday May 13, page 14, is a article about train announcements can't be heard in nearly half the cars-a 100 percent increase from last year, a TA survet found.
After the good folks of SubTalk reads the article, your most excellent thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
In the NY Daily News Thursday May 13, page 5, is a article about Mayor Giuliani will not let the new transit museum open the City Hall Subway Station under City Hall-sealed off for 53 years -to the Public.
The Administration is citing Securoty risks.
Your thoughts on this is most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Dang, there go my plans to plant a bomb under City Hall, I came up with the idea when Rudy said was going to "blow up" my work. (Board of Education). I thought tit for tat....
I bet the Police Officer is still in his booth down there too.
Yes, it is, but it was unmanned the last time I took a 6 around the loop - looks kind of out of place in the ornate station.
I told you Rudy ws afraid of the sound of his own farts...
Well, baby, I mean Rudy, Guliani will be gone inm another 2 years - why worry?
Hey, Steve B. and Philip N.: who wants to be the first to put some money on whether or not Rudy G. ends his political career by turning into a Richard Nixon clone? Not the corruption part, but turning into a complete paranoid nut case where he'll suspect everyone around him of stabbing him in the back. I see it coming.....any wagers, please?
cya later, Doug aka BMTman
COMING??? Its already happened!!!!
I will Say that Rudy, to his credit has put a lot of BAAAD people away and if I had a fan club like that I'd be a little hinky myself
I thought the IRT City Hall station is under the park in FRONT of City Hall, not actually under City Hall. And besides, how do you get the rental truck down into the station? And furthermore, wouldn't a terrorist be more likely to blow up something really important like the Stock Exchange or the UN building?
Bill
Well, in Rudy's little world, he thinks that he is "something really
important like the Stock Exchange or the UN building," so of course the terrorists are going to blow *him* up.
Of course if terrorists *were* to go after Il Duce, I wouldn't mind, just please do so away from the City Hall station!
In the NY Post Thursday May 13, page 24, is a article about the TA will spend $7.5 milion to beef up service on 67 buses routes this summer to keep up with booming ridership and hekp cut traffic gridlock.
I also out this in the BusTalk Section.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Does anyone know if there is space to connect the local tracks on the Northeast Corridor to the single track Chessie track one mile north of Linden?
Also, is there enough room to connect the old CNJ Bayonne tracks to the Northeast Corridor local tracks at Elizabeth?
I need this information because I am finishing my plan for the revival of the North Shore Railroad.
Finally, your opinion. Should I electrify the North Shore and connecting tracks in New Jersey or not. Cost is not a consideration for me.
Your website is misunderstanding if you be so kind to "HELP" me I would be happy!
Next time try asking a question to receive help on.
If you are looking for subway travel info, fare info, maps, timetables, etc. you are on the WRONG SITE. The Official New York City Transit web site is http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/. Maybe this is the source of your confusion.
-Dave
Just heard a report that the city has formally scotched plans to put a new transit museum in the abandoned City Hall station, citing security reasons.
Perhaps the next mayor may revithe plan.
You have to wonder if the Mayor used to be a big pothead, considering all f his paranoia...
That mayor of yours is am embarrassment in front of the world. Remove him by the most expeditious means legally possible.
Well, I wouldn't go quite that far ... he has done a lot of good for the city. He just wants to be Senator or President so he needs to keep getting on the front page of the paper. If he'ld just do his job and stop looking down the road he'ld get a lot more done for the people he's suppose to serve (now).
Mr t__:^)
And if Rudy is elected President, he'll wind up building what amounts to be a cross between the Berlin Wall and the Great Wall of China around the White House.
[And if Rudy is elected President, he'll wind up building what amounts to be a cross between the Berlin Wall and the Great Wall of China around the White House.]
Won't happen - Rudy's chances are somewhat less than zero. It's much more likely that Baby George will be elected President, in which case the White House will be expanded to include a crack den and a singles bar.
I wonder if he hates broccoli as much as his father does. I also wonder if "Can't do it" is part of his vocabulary.
You mean Clinton didn't already put those things in?
Mr. Bill probably doesn't remember putting them in, even if he did.
"That mayor of yours is am embarrassment"
Excuse me? Where are you from and where do you get your info (or impressions) from? I may not agree with the mayor in everything that he does but his actions while in offise do not rise anywhere near the level of an "embarrassment". He's a bully - granted. He does not like opposition either. He's a very controlling person. All these are true but he gets results:
1)Crime is down - way down.
2)Municiple agencies are being forced to work leaner and meaner (as a municipal employee I may not like it but as a tax payer I do).
3)Welfare recipients are being shown that there is a way to break the welfare-family cycle and are being given a chance to do it.
4)There is not the sense of hopelessness in this city that shrouded it during the "Dinky" administration.
During the Koch administration Ed Koch was more antagonistic to minorities and unions than Guilliani ever was. How short our memories are. Now he shamelessly hawks himself in the media as the 'Voice of Reason'
During David (do nothing) Dinkins administration, his anti-police, anti-semetic agendas pervaded his entire (lack of) administration. He permitted riots (only against whites and asians though). Under his administration, the police shot their weapons twice as frequently as during the Guilliani administration. 'Accidental' or Unjustified police shootings were 8X higher while dinkins was at the helm. The peoples of the lowest economic classes in this city were neglected while the city's most inept mayor in history diverted planes from safe landing patterns at LaGuardia Airport so he could enjoy tennis without jet noise.
With all due respect for Todd's colleagues who report the news in print and over the air waves, I think that Mayor Guilliani has not gotten his due credit for the positive direction this city is now headed in. I think you are a victim of biased reporting of the news or possibly your own political prejudices.....
Now Let's Get Back To The Important Stuff - The 2 & 3 Rail Stuff !!!
I have a few things to add since you seem to have a selective memory.
(1) While he was campaigning, Rudy G. led a police-riot at City Hall where many off-duty cops harrassed and spewd racial epithets at minority City Councilmembers and civilians.
(2) You seem to believe that Dinkins "let" the Crown Heights riot happen. The fact Dinkins WAS inept in the fact that his staff was not keeping him abreast of the situation and it escalated to the point where -- once he arrived on the scene -- his own safety was at stake and Yankel Rosenbaum had been fatally wounded. As if he, the Mayor could have staved off civil unrest (Be realistic). Rudy could not have done much better had the incident had happenned on his 'watch'. And Dinkins is not anti-semetic since he is a great contributor and backer of the State of Israel. He is always at some Jewish function -- more there than at a black function.
(2a) The incident at the Asian-market was NOT a riot. It was a protest -- something that is protected under our rights as citizens of this country.
(3) Ed Koch, having been born and raised in the city got along better with ALL citizens, initially. I say initially, because in his first two terms he did a commendable job at financially turning this city around. It was only later that his personality changed for the worst -- his ego became unmanagable and to a certain extent ended his Mayorality with a similar Giuliani style of "do as I say, not as I do" attitude. And of course those scandals (ie Donald Manes, and etc.) really hurt Koch's credibility. Pathetically, he now goes around and bashes Rudy G. for many of the same failings of his own career (I agree with you there).
'Nough said, Doug aka BMTman
So now can we get back to the trains?????
Actually, all preservationists have to guard against the possibility that a meat axe Reaganite like "Hizzoner" may try to scrap the museum all together to finance tax cuts targeted for the least deserving people. Remember, since Boxcar Willie died about a month ago, there is no deep pocket celebrity to step in like Bette Midler did to save those vacant lots that residents turned into gardens from Rudy's unfeeling cash register brain. and this is the most ON topic post Ive ever done Talk to a few real preservationists ,you'll find darn few supply siders. Preservationists should organize in case "Hizzoner" tries to pull something
This is unbeleiveable Giuliani is just plan parinaid. There are lots of places in the Subway that pose a Securty Risk. Like the artical Said Brooklyn Bridge on the No.456 or City Hall on the N,R can also be a risk. Why stop with the Museum band all train from stopping in the area of City Hall. Lets see that would afect the No.2,3,4,5,6,A,C,E,J,M,N,R. What diffrents is a Museum for us train buffs to hang out at going to make.
I don't think you are allowed to ride the "6" around the loop any longer either...
Hey, while you're at it, stop all subway service cuz they all provide a threat to the mayor and his city!!
Two current threads have a convergent theme. The 500 protesters decrying the extension of rail service from Astoria are saying:
Not In My Back Yard.
While our mayor is extremely critical of 'nynbyites' in general, he has stopped cold, the idea of creating another transit museum in the City hall Subway station, saying:
Not In My Basement Yo-Yo.
How do you make the color letters steve? Include changing the html notes at the bottom.
Download the posting and view the HTML code with your browser. I'm just beginning to play with HTML and it's really quite simple.
Today HTML - Tomorrow JAVA
Steve,
Yo-Da-Man!
If I'm ever at the WCBS studios on a Thursday evening when it's time for Ask the Mayor, three guesses what I'm going to prod Rich Lamb to ask... and the first two guesses don't count!
Trouble maker !!! You'll get me transferred to 240th Street...
Well if that happens I'll come over to the born and meet you. Besides we need better people in that born.
Thanks, I'll be in the city on Sunday on the west side - Perhaps if your working I'll get to meet you...
Rich Lamb? Our former governor was Dick Lamm. A real dufus, IMHO. The ultimate just-say-no, duty-to-die politician. Is this a coincidence, or what?
Steve B. -- Rich Lamb, a 20-year veteran of WCBS Newsradio-88, has won numerous awards. In addition, he is regarded by his colleagues as among the finest radio reporters in New York City. No one can paint the word picture like Rich. So, for example, if I wanted to find someone to describe a NY subway station with all of its ornate fixtures to a blind visitor, I'd pick Rich in a flash.
Thanks for the info. I meant no disrespect. The similarity in manes is purely coincidental.
Hey Steve, do you think Rudy G.'s seen "Escape from New York" too many times???
That's got to be his inspiration for the "bunker mentality".
Doug aka BMTman
The transit museum thing is nonsense. I have never heard what the risk is, from whom, and why.
The bottom line is that despite its groaning burdens, the city has a few extra dollars for a brief period at the top of a Wall Street boom, and eveyone is determined to make sure that none of it is used in a way that provides a lasting benefit for the people who live here. The people who are grabbing the money are those who already do a lot better here than elsewhere. And the schools and transit system? Not so good.
A colleague here was in Manhattan yesterday and picked up a new MC.
French Connection UK - I'm sure they're at it again.
Does anyone know how long they've been out or how widespread they're being sold ? This example expires 7/31/00 so it has to be recent.
Mr t__:^)
There have been so many lately I cant keep up. There's also Manhattan Mini Mall Storage, Continental Airlines(yes, another go around)
[There's also Manhattan Mini Mall Storage,]
Didn't know about that one ... thanks
[Continental Airlines(yes, another go around)]
It's the 5th in a series:
"We have to put up with our competitors. You don't."
background is the same as the 3 from Sept. 1998,
i.e. the first one, April '98, had a bigger globe.
BTW, Eye have MetroCards with lovely graphics on the back to trade !
How about for the set four Yankee cards for your out-of-town ers ?
All slightly used by an old lady who went to church on Sunday ;-)
Mr t__:^)
I got the Manhattan Mini Storage card at Chambers on the A and C, thanks to tip from a station agent at Ft. Hamilton Parkway on the F. It is a clorful card with "So, you married an intellectual" and a stack of book on the right two-thirds of the card and infomation about the advertiser on the left third (phone #, web site etc.).
Does anyone know any of the stations with the French Connection MC?
Posted in Bus Talk .yesterday evening
Steve
No more 2 express service in the night? I guess the tracks will get a rest. But the local trcks will be overused..........
Here is the text of FDNY's Posting from Bus_Talk, only insofar as it
applies to Subway service:
Subdivision A Subway Schedules ,,Oct 1999
Improvements'
IRT 1= Weekday 8 PM to 11 PM.
4 NB Trips Added
_ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
IRT 2= Weekday 10 AM to 4 PM/
9 PM to 10 PM/
Midday Headway to 8 mins,Evenings at 10 mins
add 10 additional Roundtrips
_ _ + _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
IRT 3= Weekdays 10 AM to 4 PM and 9 PM to 10 PM.
Midday Headways at 8 mins ,,evenings at 10.
add 10 Additional Roundtrips.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _
IRT 5= Weekdays 9 PM to 11 PM.
Headways every 10 min.
add 4 additional roundtrips.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
IRT 6= weekdays 10 AM to 4 Pm and 8 Pm to 11PM.
21 additional round trips added.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -
IRT 2= sundays 6 am to 7 AM .
add 1 additional roundtrips.
_ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
IRT 3/5= weekdays and weekends.
add 8 additonal roundtrips M-f, 11 on
Saturdays ,,18 on Sundays for the Bwy 7 av Corridor
add 5 roundtrips on Saturdays and add 12
trips on Sundays on the Lex Corridor.
________________________________________
Also With the No.4 and No.6 running Local which puts a 10 Minute wait from 125 Street to Brooklyn Bridge. Which means 24/7 No.6 service to Brooklyn Bridge. Also Now FDNY say's No.2 will go Local from 96 Street to Chambers.
Remind me to avoid the IRT #2 whilst in Manhattan whenever possible! The IRT #2 is the very reason I try not to utilise the IRT #1/9 when I can avoid it, for the simple reason that the IRT #1 (the so-called "Broadway Local") is a long-ass -- not to mention, slow-ass -- line beginning at West 242nd Street in Riverdale, The Bronx, to South Ferry Station in downtown Manhattan (aka "the city").
What about the 2 line? It's the longest in the IRT. With maybe the exception of the 4 late nights......
The longest possible IRT route is 241-New Lots via 7 Av; 26.78 miles.
Next is 241-New Lots via Lex 26.12 miles
Larry,RedbirdR33
The No.2 Line still has the Longest route. E 241 to Flatbush running time 1 Hour and 27 Minutes. The Shortest IRT line is the No.7 Line from Main Street to Times Square. Running time 33 Minutes.
Wouldn't the shortest IRT route be the 42nd Street Shuttle? (And, at one time, the Bowling Green--South Ferry Shuttle would have been even shorter.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Yes that would be only 2 Stops. I ment to say the No.7 is the shortest Main Line route on A Division. That Shuttle can put you to sleep. I use to work Overtime on the Shuttle double Ending TK 4 during the AM Rush Hour back around 1990. It feels your doing Yard Moves intead of Road.
Regular readers of "Subtalk" will have followed with interest the comings and goings here in London, but let me be the first to say that:
The JUBILEE LINE EXTENSION will open to fare paying passengers from noon on Friday 14th May 1999 between Stratford and North Greenwich!
.
First service frequency expected to be every 6 minutes until 19:45 apporx!.
.
Regards
Rob :^)
oops who can't spell Friday!!!
:^)
Never mind the spelling Rob. I am in Burnley on Friday so I shall miss the big day. Should be there Wednesday or Thursday next week though. Who is going to get the first pictures to David for inclusion in this site ? I think there is a surface section at Canning Town.
Simon
Swindon UK
Jolly Good Show !!!!
Mr t__:^)
Too bad John Cleese wasn't on hand to say from his desk, "And now for something completely different."
Did you guys and gals know about the secret chicago subway used by Big Al Capone and his boys. There is 60 miles of the freight tunnels under Chicago street 40 feet below. They ran small electric locomotives from an overhead trolly line and pulled freight cars. There were many switches and tunnels have a spooky apearance to them.
THIS IS COOL STUFF.
They were used to haul coal and make deliveries mostly. This was the tunnel system that was pierced with a pile being driven a few years ago in the Chicago river. Since it is connected to most of the basements in the loop, they flooded many buildings and closed the regular subways for a few days.
The freight system was a narrow gauge system. The tunnels are now full of telephone, cable TV, and fiber optic cables.
There's nothing secret about this underground system in Chicago. You might want to read the book "40 Feet Below" which gives a very interesting description of the system which was originally built to be a railroad which provided underground deliveries of coal, merchandise, materials, etc.
It was abandoned in the 1940's, and to this day it serves very well as underground passageways for telephone lines, etc. It does also show up from time to time in various movies filmed in the Chicago area.
In 1996, the Illinois Railway Museum raised one of these electric
freight locomotives from the tunnel network. read the story at
http://www.irm.org/railwire/rw162a1.html
The "secret" Chicago subway isn't really such a secret. It is very well documented in the excellent book "40 Feet Below" by Bruce Moffat. It was used to deliver freight to downtown buildings and remove ashes and rubbish. Parts of it were closed when the rapid transit subways were built in the thirties and forties. It's most recent notoriety was several years ago when an accident on the river caused flooding in the tunnels that spread to building basements and shut down the rapid transit subways for several days. Its only use today is for electric cables. The "secret" subway has no connection to Al Capone and his "boys", but it has an interesting history, nonethe less.
url for Chicago Tunnel http://members.aol.com/POKeefe571/tunnel1a.html
Hey guys and gals:
There is an old movie made during either the late 1940s or early 50s starring William Holden as I believe a plainclothes railroad cop working at one of the main Chicago staions.
The plot revolves around I think a Kidnapping of a girl with the climatic scene being filmed in the freight tunnels complete with operating motors and trains!
Saw this film months back on AMC; can not remember the name of it. Can anybody help me out?
It's a good film and for anyone interested in the freight tunnels it's a must see!
"Gimme dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me!"
AB&D-type Mike
[There is an old movie made during either the late 1940s or early 50s starring William Holden as I believe a plainclothes railroad cop working at one of the main Chicago stations.]
The name of the movie was "Union Station" made in 1950. It starred William Holden as Detective Lieut. William Calhoun. Calhoun was a railroad dick responsible for Union Station.
Plot is as AB&D type Mike says. Near the end of the movie great scenes can be seen of the narrow-gauge freight railway.
BTW, most of the railway was abandoned when the two Chicago Subways were built in the late 1930's early 1940's. The purpose of the railway was to deliver materials/goods/coal to the building located in the loop. The trains then carried the ash from the coal away from the buildings on their return trip.
All of this is documented in the book "Forty Feet Below: The Story of Chicago's Freight Tunnels” by Bruce Moffat.
These tunnels, long forgotten, were painfully remembered again in the early 1990’s when the great flood in the Loop occurred. A contractor working near Kinzie Street broke into one of the tunnels allowing huge volumes of water from the Chicago River into the system. The water found its way into the basement of many Loop office buildings and stores. The CTA was forced to shut down both the State and Dearborn Street Subways due to flooding. The then North-South Line, or better known today the Red Line, was detoured over the ‘L’ from Fullerton to 17th St Jct. Unfortunately, the CTA doesn’t have the ability to re-route the Blue Line and all available buses were pressed into shuttle service.
BTW, the book is out-of-print again, I think.
Jim K.
Chicago
As someone else posted, this web site: http://members.aol.com/POKeefe571/tunnel1.html has a whole lot of information about the Chicago Tunnels. He had copies of "40 Feet Below" book and also a video that goes along with it for sale thru his web site.
There is also a Pentrex video - based on the clips shown on the above web page I don't think it is the same. The Pentrex video is quite good; since I haven't seen the one advertised (assuming it is, as I suspect, a different tape) I can't offer an opinion on that one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a great same for the PATH. Lets call it the "Trolley in the Sewer Pipe".
"Trolley in the Sewr Pipe" ????
People have been calling the Boston subway just that for forty years that *I* know of!
Check out www.sfmunicentral.com for display of muni LRV's operating live in the system.
I have two questions to pose. Going back say 25 years ago what did NYCT consider to be safe operating speeds for its trains? I have heard rumors that 55 MPH was what the system was designed for. Of course today I beleive it is 45. And the other question is without any restrictions what can the average subway cars top speed be? That's probably a big question since there are quite a few different classes of cars.
Your'e correct. The equipment delivered in the early days of SMEE was designed well. R10's could and did do 50 regularly. Begining in the early 80's the TA began tinkering with the brakes. The net result after many modifications is SERVICE braking at a much reduced rate as compared to the orginal design.
When the critical equation of stopping distances to signal spacing was altered, the inevitable happened. Wrecks.
The formula for signal spacing is based on the stopping distance of a given train, and the relative top speed for the area. If the train takes a signifigant amount of distance more than what's called for by the signal spacing, you get wrecks.
So rather than return the brakes to what the designers had intended, the TA chose to slow things down instead. This brought stopping distances down to within design spec for the signal system.
Why? $$$$$$$$$$ that's why. Flat wheels, brake shoe wear, passenger complaints of squealing brakes, law suits from injuries due to hard stops. Also the added benifit of reduced power consumption. At top speed, a transit car drew about 220 amps through all four of it's traction motors. I look at the motor ammeter today, and I see about 60 for the #1 truck. That's on the Brighton express, say about 45MPH. That's as fast as you're gonna get with out a hill helping out.
Now we have a safe, but perfectly lethargic system. Read my post on R44/R46 H.P.
I have no doubt the R-10s did 50 on the express dash up CPW. They were speedsters, to say the least. At 81st St., a northbound A train would be a blur as it rocketed past. I remember counting the cars once as an A train sped by, and I'll bet it took less than 10 seconds to count 10 cars. It took mabye a second or two longer with a D train of R-1/9s, while a D train of R-32s would provide stiff competition for the R-10s.
Of course, it was even more fun to ride an express back then!
Despite what my "Transit Professional" friend says, according to a 1976 NYCT New Car Engineering publication, all cars from R-10 through R-42 were originally designed to attain a top speed of 45 MPH on tangent/level track. R-44 and R-46 were designed to operate at 70 MPH.
Steve:
Flat out, on level track, the original cars frequently did 50 MPH or so. It's a fact. Ask any one who rode back then. sk any Motormen with more than 6 or 7 years. You didn't need a speedometer to see that the equipment ran a lot faster back then. You know that.
I think that book must have a typo. I remember books with that kind of statistics with a 50 MPH balancing speed, and a 55 MPH top speed. "They moved the millions" and "Under the sidewalks of New York" come to mind. Also the course materiel to the "electric down" class I took in 1986.
What do you mean by 'original cars'? The source I quoted did specify R-10 to R-42 only. It did not specify any of the early equipment. As to the actual claims, with no radar gun and no speedometers, how were the motormen able to accurately measure the speed?
In a train all cars run at the same speed Some have new wheels some have old wheels The average ballacning speed of all of the cars will determine the speed if I am correct. If you read a speedometer on a car with new wheels you will get one reading. If you read a speeddometer on a car that the wheels have been turned to the limit it will read something higher but the train is traveling at the same speed. The range between 45 and 50 is within speedometer error.
DO nyc cars have speedometers?
NYCT cars use two types of speedometers. R-44, R-46 and R-68 use a speedometer that reads by counting the teeth of the 'bull' gear in the gear case. This type of speedometer is sensative to wheel size so those speedometers are supposed to be calibrated via a toggle switch on every inspection cycle. Settings are for wheels 34"+, 33" and 32 or less. The difference between the 3 settings is roughly 2 MPH at 50 MPH.
All other NYCT cars use a speedometer with a doplar sensor (radar) This is not dependent on wheel size. They are tested with a tuning fork.
Well, I figure someone might ask. So... here are the definitions of "Doppler frequency shift" and "Doppler radar." These are from the Glossary of Meteorology, second edition, to be published later this year by the American Meteorological Society (yours truly is the managing editor of the book).
Doppler frequency shift - (Also called Doppler effect.) In general, the change in frequency of a signal reaching a receiver when the receiver and the transmitting source are in motion relative to one another. This phenomenon was first noted for sound waves by the Austrian physicist Christian Johann Doppler (1803–53) in 1842.
Doppler radar - A radar that detects and interprets the Doppler effect in terms of the radial velocity of a target. The signal received by a radar from a moving target differs in frequency from the transmitted frequency by an amount that is proportional to the radial component of the velocity relative to the radar.
The speedometer to which Steve refers is in fact a miniature Doppler radar, and uses the Doppler frequency shift to calculate the speed.
POP QUIZ: What causes the change in sound of a train's whistle/horn as it approaches then passes a railraod crossing (from the point of reference of a stationary observer at the crossing)?
I think you can also apply that to a horn from a passing automobile. On the other hand, a D train of R-1/9s roaring past 81st St. would maintain a bull and pinion gear pitch of F# above middle C.
Is this a trick question? OK, I'll say Doppler frequency shift.
compression of the sound waves as the train approches and expansion of the waves of as the train moves away. Thus the dopler effect. Also used in a lesslie speaker cabinet on a Hamond organ, where the sound is rotated to create the pulsating sound.
Ah, yes, the "soap opera" sound. Not that I'm a soap fan...
Correct Steve B., it is indeed the Doppler frequency shift.
I'm sorry. Original as in original SMEE, R10 etc. Most crews who really wanted to know their speeds timed themselves on a metered mile. The Rockaways or Queens Blvd, CPW.
On the Railroads, the equipment has an adjustment knob for the speedometers. Whenever there was a wheel trued on a lathe, changing it's diameter, We simply dialed in the correct setting for the size of the wheel. This way speedometer accuracy was maintained. Do our cars have this with the speedometers they have? I've seen many an R46 go through the river tube showing 48 in one car and 53 in the other.
Depends on the speedo. I think the ones on the 75' cars
used an axle rotation sensor and are thus susceptible to
wheel size calibration error. The other style, which is most
of the fleet, uses doppler radar aimed at the roadbed, so
it would not be affected by wheel diameter variance.
As I stated in a previous post, the speedometer on the R-46 is adjustable to compensate for wheel size. However, the difference in speedo reading between a new wheel and a limit wheel is 2-3 MPH. The speedos that are dependent on wheel size are R-68, R-46 and R-44. The speed is measured by magnetically counting the teeth on the 'Bull Gear' in the gear case.
I'd have to tend to agree with the fact that R6/R7 cars could do 50MPH on level track - one strech of the Queens IND comes to mind, on the express track going through Sutphin Blvd (after unwinding from the broad curve). Based on the pitch of the gear whine (not everybody can sense this) and from what Steve B has told me about gear pitch vs.speed I would have to say 50MPH (+/- 3MPH) was achieved there. Ditto on the 4th Avenue express run the few times I rode R1/R4 "B" trains there (this is going back to 1968 and 1969).
Wayne
I totally agree. The R-1/9s could really move. The highest pitch I ever heard their bull and pinion gears get up to was F# above middle C, once on an E in Queens in 1968 (that train absolutely ripped past 36th St.) and on the couple of D trains I was lucky enough to ride along CPW. I wish I could remember for sure what they got up to in the 14th St. tunnel when they ran on the Canarsie, most likely F# at least, if not G above middle C. The BMT standards would reach G# in that tunnel.
The SMEE cars could accelerate faster. 50 mph was considered balancing speed, if what I've read is true.
It seems to me that a motorman (TO) could observe how much time it would take for a car/train to cover a known distance
"It seems to me that a motorman (TO) could observe how much time it would take for a car/train to cover a known distance"
Yes, I suppose that they could. Especially if they had a stop watch and had a stretch of track that they knew the exact length of. However, that would mean that they would be watching the watch and not watching the road. Keep in mind though, an error of just 8 feet at 60 miles per hour would result in a 9% error or 5 1/2 MPH either way.
Before speedometers, how did train operators judge their speed in order to obey "20 MPH" or similar signs along the tracks?
I've been wondering that since the 1940s; maybe I'll finally find out.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I'm not a train operator but I'll tell you how I estimate speed. Take a known distance like a station platform (IE: IND=600 feet) time the time it takes to pass that station (IE: 10 seconds). Therefore speed is 60 fps. MPH is approximately 2/3fps or 40 MPH.
Whlie the subway presents a whole different set of problems as Steve alluded to in his earlier post, it was common steam railway practice to publish Speed Tables (Seconds Per Mile)in the Employes time tables. all a crew person had to do was mark time at a milepost, wait for the next mile post, mark time again and look up the speed for the number of seconds it took to travel that mile.
[it was common steam railway practice to publish Speed Tables (Seconds Per Mile)in the Employes time tables. all a crew person had to do was mark time at a milepost, wait for the next mile post, mark time again and look up the speed for the number of seconds it took to travel that mile.]
And this pratice was used until the mid to late 1970's on the Reading Company. The old MU's, RDC's and Budd Silverliners were all delivered without speed-o-meters. The equipment was added to all operating positions on the MU's and RDC's as the new GE Silverliner IV equipment was making the scene.
Funny thing about the RDC's. When they were delivered in 1962, they didn't have speed-o-meters; however, they were equipped with a "event recorder" for speed which was placed in a cabinet inside the rail car and no use to the crew operating the train.
Judging speed was part of the enginemen's responsibility. I got pretty good at it after a little practice.
Jim K.
Chicago
This is also in the LIRR and the NORAC rule books/ timetable special instructions.
NORAC=Northeast Operating Rule Advisory Commitee
That's the organization that writes the common rule book for Amtrak, NJT, Conrail, SEPTA, Etc.
On the contrary the train's length is 600 feet on the IND, however few stations such as 63rd Drive are actually "known" as 600 feet. Some can be 610 to as much as 630 feet on some Rockaway Line stations. Signal numbers are more accurate as you have stated that a miscalculation of several feet leads to a 5 1/2 M.P.H. mistake. A known station would be one where the ten car marker is at the entrance to the tunnel and where I guess the end of the train is just at the rear end of the station with no extra platform behind the train in the station.
I think the original question was "how did motormen determine
speed before [the relatively recent introduction of] speedometers?"
Answer: Judgement! How do motormen know how many lbs of brake
to apply to stop at a certain point? Being able to make time/speed/
distance judgements is part of the job of being a motorman (but
perhaps that's no longer in the job description of Train Operator)
A friend of mine who has almost 30 years in motors told me of a time
once in the mid 1980s when RTO was giving train operators some
kind of special training. They had him operate a train that was
equipped with a speedometer, except only the supervisors had access
to it...it wasn't in the cab. At various points, they asked him
"how fast would you say you're going right now?" They were a little
miffed when he answered every question right +/- 1 MPH!
Judgement, judgement and more judgement with lots of experience was the way of a skilled motorman or train operator. In Atlanta, this hardly exists with train operators. They rarely stop at the proper car marker when operating in Manual Cab Signal mode and always let the dead-man feature do the final stop for them. Without the speedometer and cab signaling they are lost.
Oh, gee, we got along for 90 years with out a speedometer. What were we thinking. I agree with Mr. Train Control. It's all about training. TA only cares about the dollars, and forgets the sense!
The only time I ever looked at the speedometer was to be certain after a cab signal aspect change. Ditto for the brake gauges. Only when I made the initial charge.
It's all hearing and in the seat of the pants. Things that no matter how long you sit in a classroom, you cannot ever learn. They must be learned the old fashioned way. Alongside an experienced Motorman or Engineer. Over many weeks of supervised operation. I was released from classroom on July 7. It wasn't until October 14 that I was allowed to run a train on the main. And then STILL with an instructor Engineer alongside. I will never forget the first time I had the engine all alone. By then I had enough seat time, that it was second nature. I had enough confidence in my ability as an Engineer, that I had barely noticed I was alone.
I meet new train operators all the time now that I'm in the TA. I can't tell you how many of them need to be led by the hand. How few have the needed confidence. None really are "qualified". It's amazing we don't have more accidents.
As the Conductor, in charge of the train, I have to take responsibility for these children. In some cases they call me over the intercom for the line ups at certain interlockings. One hit a timer in the river tube. She called me on the I/C. I could hear her crying! These are the men and women TA sends out to transport the riding millions every day!
As a subway "fan" and quasi-professional (as an Instructor at a tourist museum) I have wondered why the TA has recently put "remember your line-up" posters at many locations. Does this mean that for 90 years operators knew the line-ups, but now they're forgetting them too often? I find it curious that the TA would consider operators qualified for a particular line without knowing the proper routing line-ups on the main lines without reminder posters.
YES!
For 90 years we hired people, then gave them ENOUGH TRAINING! Now we give them a "Microwave course" Bare minimum. In school car, train operators, are given a map of the system, and a book of cards, with pictures of important home signal aspects. That's it.
Like getting out of an airport, renting a car. Looking at the map to know where you are going to. Only it's a foregn city you've never been to.
That's how New York City subway train operators are trained today. Personnel who have the responsibilty of thousands of lives in their hands.
Eric,
Just wondering - if you were a fully qualified engineer on the LIRR, why did you become a conductor for the TA? (no disrespect intended, just curious.)
subfan
I was an employee of the NY&A Rwy. The differences in pay are HUGE. LIRR engineer = $26.32 Hr NY&A engineer = $14.65
If I had been employed by the MTA LIRR instead, I most assuredly would still be there. But seeing as they will not hire NY&A personnel, I don't let it bother me.
My goal since childhood had always been to operate subway trains. The TA had called me for the Conductors job, and I actually turned it down. But after 9 more months had gone by, and I realized just how tough freight work is, I changed my mind.
Every day, 6 days a week. 7 AM to 7 PM. I got home exhausted. Fell asleep as soon as I would get out of the shower. Sometimes the job required running and jumping. Always climbing. On Sunday, I would vegitate in front of the TV. I was neglecting my children. Why? The pay was only $13.05 per hour, at the time. Sure with all the O.T. I brought home a nice cheque, but I had always prized my leisure time, and it was begining to take a toll. I found myself increasingly iritable, and my feet were hurting too. At NY&A we shared both engine and ground duties.
So one night after getting soaked to the bone in a particularly bad rainstorm, I changed my mind about the whole thing. The next day, I never went to bed. Instead, I went to the NYC Dept. of Personnel, and put my name back on the list. They called me for the job again in two weeks. It was like answering a call from the Railroad Gods.
But here, money has never been an issue, for me. Always, respect, and working conditions.
On the railroad, a conductor was in charge of a crew. No one second guessed his descicions. He was definetly not a doorman.The engineer was sufficiently trained. He never had to wonder if he was taking the proper signal.
I'd like to see the dedication and proffesionalism that saw there, in our crews here. I'd like to see management treat us here the way management treated me and my fellow crewmen there. Bt I'm not holding my breath.
But this is where I am now, and I'm here because this is where my destiny has led me. I love this little railroad. I'm not happy with what has happened here, but I do feel I can ma