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Yesterday eye saw engine 419 & trailer 5008 on the Babylon line.
Mr t__:^)
I managed to ride the new double-deckers twice this week. I didn't record the numbers, but they had the automatic annunciation system turned off on both trains. They still had that 'new-train smell'
-Hank
I switched from Ronkonkoma to Patchogue/Montauk this past week or so. I've managed 3 rides on the new double deckers so far. The ride is excellent and in the AM, I love the automated announcements. It's like having an alarm clock right next to my seat. Only problem is the ride seems too short.
One observation: There are many new locos sitting idle at Morris Park. I assume that there are still several new Bi-levels still to be delivered. Does anyone have any numbers.
BTW: There are far too many of the old clunkers still running. The one I was on this mornig was so bad, in broad daylight, you couldn't see anything but shadows through any of the windows (no exaggeration).....
[I switched from Ronkonkoma to Patchogue/Montauk this past week or so. I've managed 3 rides on the new double deckers so far. The ride is excellent and in the AM, I love the automated announcements. It's like having an alarm clock right next to my seat. Only problem is the ride seems too short.]
Are you taking the 6:54 from Patchogue? I normally go from Medford, living only a couple of miles from the station, but at least once a week I decide I just can't stomach the thought of the change at Ronkonkoma and head down to Patchogue. Then I'll take the 6:54 just to ride on the double deckers. There's a 7:16 express that gets into Penn Station (also with a Jamaica x-fer) only a minute or so after the 6:54, but I'll take the earlier train precisely because it runs the double deckers.
By the way, the Greenport shuttle that serves Medford has been using the double deckers for a few months now, but it's no treat because the ride's only about five minutes long. Then I have to switch to one of those ghastly overcrowded Ronkonkoma trains :-(
Actually, I reverse commute. I find the 8:58 from Jamaica a really nice ride. Among the best of the old trains is the 10:56 PM from Montauk. It goes non-stop from Babylon - X Island on the Central branch. Unfortunately it gets me into Jamaica too late to ride it regularly.
After a few days here in Orlando at a conference (hurricanes!) where there's no rail and a lot of humidity, I'm heading back to The Big Apple this PM. Hopefully on Saturday afternoon I'll get an LIRR bi-level ride. Does anyone know with reasonable certainty where and when bi-levels have been running eastbound from Jamaica between 1 & 4PM on weekend afternoons?
[Actually, I reverse commute. I find the 8:58 from Jamaica a really nice ride. Among the best of the old trains is the 10:56 PM from Montauk. It goes non-stop from Babylon - X Island on the Central branch. Unfortunately it gets me into Jamaica too late to ride it regularly.]
The Central Branch is a cool routing. I like it far better than the Babylon line. It's probably the longest stretch without stations anywhere on the LIRR system, with the possible exception of Amagansett - Montauk.
For the LIRR experts in our group, these questions;
1) What is the designation of the new Bi-Level coaches 4000 and 5000 series.
2) What are the designations for the 2700s, 2800s and 2900s which are being retired.
3) On the 5000 series cars, on the brake control there is a "LAP" position and a "Hold" position. Lap is obvious but what is "hold" and when is it used.
Well, I'll get a F grade on this one as I only know #1;
4000 = coaches
5000 = cabs w/rail fan seat
Mr t__:^)
I have another question. Because of the tight clearances on the LIRR does anyone know the height above rails of the Double decker cars?
Spotted a train of R-40Ms at Canarsie yard last night. The cars were designated as a Z train. Is this customary at Canarsie?
[Spotted a train of R-40Ms at Canarsie yard last night. The cars were designated as a Z train. Is this customary at Canarsie?]
Dunno if it's customary, but it isn't surprising. Supposedly, East New York yard is normally at full capacity or close thereto, so Canarsie would be a logical place for overflow.
There are I believe 2 Z/J put ins from Canarsie to Jamaica Center in the AM. They lay up in the evening. There is not enough room in East New York. These two trains used to lay up at 111th Street.
I see the two trains laying in Carnarse Yard last month and I was surprise they add 10 more tracks in Carnarse Yard also they have subway car wash too. Any body have a new Carnarse Yard Map? I just want to see how they look now.
Last month I saw two trains laying at Carnarse Yard and I was surprise they add 10 more tracks at Carnarse Yard also they have subway car wash too. Any body have a new Carnarse Yard Map? I just want to see how they look now.
They also store some at Fresh Pond. I see J's there, and I have seen Z's there too before.
Not anymore.When the J used to cut, they would send 2 trains over to Met.If Met is down a train for some reason, Parsons-Archer will send over a J train that was originally scheduled to go to E.N.Y yard,provided there are no defects in the consist.
I bet I'll get in trouble for this one, but:
Station stops around the Financial District are closer together than at anyplace else around the city, to keep rush-hour loading from getting too overwhelming at any one of them. But some platforms that can be packed during rush hour are nearly deserted at night and over the weekend, and are an easy walk to busier stations in either direction: I'm thinking of both Rector Street stations, and Wall Street on the Lex. Is there much advantage to keeping them open 24/7?
Broad Street is already closed on weekends to allow trains to reverse at Chambers. Why not shut these three platforms as well at night and on Sundays, and have trains skip them, as is done in London at Chancery Lane, Cannon Street, and Temple? Rector passengers could be directed to the stations in the World Trade Center, and Wall passengers to Fulton Street, Bowling Green, or Wall St. 2/3 (which I would leave open because there's no station on the line south of it).
I know time savings would be negligible, but surely there's an advantage to the MTA and police in not having to supervise these public spaces at times when they're nearly unused.
Given how long the N/R takes to crawl through Lower Manhattan, I think the TA should consider closing Rector St permanently. The extra walk would just be a block or two, and there is plenty of room on the platforms.
I also think that the Nassau line should be hooked up to the 6th Avenue express tracks at Grand, and the DeKalb tracks should be tied to the York St tunnel. With these connections, trains could run over the Manhattan bridge during rush hours only, and Broad St would be open 24/7.
The other station which could be closed is the currently abandoned Broadway express station at Canal. Those going to Lower Manhattan can take the local via tunnel. Those going over the bridge should head toward Midtown ASAP.
Transit Authority management may be rather gun-shy about station closings after the Franklin Shuttle affair. Mindful of the Shuttle's physical deterioration and low usage, the TA floated the idea of closing the line and replacing it with increased bus service. I'm not sure whether this was a serious proposal or just a trial balloon. At any rate, there was a big hue and cry, the general theme being that the line was proposed for shutdown because it served a relatively low-income and nearly all minority area. Management quickly dropped the closure idea and instead decided to rebuild the line.
Obviously, there are some major differences between closing the Franklin Shuttle and closing (whether permanently or temporarily) a few stations in lower Manhattan. While there are more people living in the latter area, their numbers are still quite small - not to mention the fact that they're not minority. Even so, I would imagine that the TA doesn't want to risk even the slightest chance of another public relations gaffe.
Hey, let's stop talking about closing stations, it's bad enough that they are going to do away with clerks per se (new vending machines), we don't need them closing stations and eliminating more jobs.
I don't trust vending machine and Hey MTA don't ever thing about putting more vending machine in the future. That why they don't listen and they don't really care about people. MTA don't be dump.
As a transit employee, I would like to see jobs added and not cut. But I can see managements view: Does a vending machine get sick? (OK, it breaks down!), but does it go on vacation? Does it go on jury duty? Does it need a personal day? Does it have a 5 day work week? Does it want a day off on a holiday? But at a certain point, you can't cut no more! There won't be any people left to serve the public, answer questions and quickly repair minor problems.
If the stations are truly redundant, then yes, they should be closed. In my opinion, several of the downtown Manhattan stations could be closed on weekends and/or late nights, as proposed earlier in this thread. I'm not sure I want to see the currently unused Canal Street platform closed, however - seems to me that one will serve a good purpose. Any reasonable approach to saving money should be adopted - emphasis on "reasonable", not short-term savings with long-term costs. Each dollar saved is one more available - in theory, at least - for construction of additional services like the Second Avenue line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember when I went to Murrow High School in Brooklyn, one of my teachers had a petition to save the Franklin Shuttle. A number of students used to the Shuttle to get to school. Apparently this teacher used it as well. This was a very big issue to close down the shuttle. There was a big reaction from the residents of the area and thats why what is happening today is happening.
Ah, the 'romance' of the Franklin Shuttle. I'm sure most of the residents along the FS route were concerned about being inconvenienced as to the loss of the line. Basically, a bus line -- currently in place -- would provide adequent replacement service.
However, railfans too are happy at the outcome of the Franklin's fate, since it is one of the oldest existing rights-of-way in the borough of Brooklyn (and perhaps the entire system). And of course there is the Malbone Street disaster of 1918 that occurred on the line that led to the 'deadman's control' and the 'trip-arm' block signalling safety features that are used throughout the system today. (Not to leave out the other legendary feature of the FS: it ran along and served the mid-Brooklyn baseball fan who wanted to get to Ebbetts Field to root for 'Dem Bums'.
Another point in the Franklin Shuttle's favor is that it will be a more useful route when it reopens, thanks to the new transfer to the IRT.
Although I am in favor of as many transfer choices as possible I have a question. Would many people use this transfer and where would they be going?
[Although I am in favor of as many transfer choices as possible I have a question. Would many people use this transfer and where would they be going?]
I'm not sure how much use the transfer would get in normal service. But during Brighton line delays, it could prove quite useful.
I see the Franklin thing as a mistaken deference to the past. the money would have been better spent rebuilding the IRT junction at Franklin, which has been on the drawing boards for 30 years. But if they had to replace it, they should have torn down the elevated portion and hooked it into Fulton Line to provide a non-Manhattan Bridge alternative for the Brighton line.
What was the TA going to do at Franklin Av construction wise?
There is some problem at the junction of the Nostrand Ave and Brooklyn lines that reduces the number of trains that can go through Brooklyn. Others on the site would no more about it. They were going to rebuild the junction to get more trains through.
The tracks coming from Flatbush connect only to the local mainline tracks; so when an express (5) moves from President to Franklin, it has to cross over the local (3) tracks for a short distance (less than a full train length). This means that the (5) train must wait for both the express and local mainline tracks to clear, delaying all trains behind it on the Flatbush spur and all trains on the mainline.
Not only that many of day's weekday or weekend the Northbound No.2 Trains get held up to wait for the No.3 train to pass.
Two picks ago I worked the No.5 Line and had the 6:57AM out of Dyre and sometimes my No.5 connected with a No.2 at Franklin Ave. Some morning Utica tower would hold us both at the Home Signal trying to figure out what train to let go first. Most of the time the No.5 trains get Priarty of the No.2 trains.
As far as construction that would probably cause more of a problems then help with all the service diversions.
(Express trains from Flatbush must cross over to local trains from New Lots). Is that all it is? At the risk of offending those in Flatbush, why not just run the #2 and #3 to Flatbush, and the #4 and #5 to New Lots, if that would avoid the delay? After all, New Lots is a lot farther out than Flatbush, and as for the trains terminating at Utica Avenue, we all agree they should be turned south down to Kings Plaza, right?
At Franklin Ave, it seems that everyone jumps on the express anyway no matter what train they boarded, based on the relative crowding at Nevins, so offering local and express on each branch seems less important. Heck, even local all the way there would be a lot shorter ride on the 2/3 from Flatbush than on the F, D, B, R, etc.
But you'd have to put the 3 back to New Lots after rush hour(unless there are more people going to Flatbush) for capacity's sake.
I don't know the historical feeling of running one line on another track to increase safety.
My favorite suggestion for the Nostrand Ave. conundrum- build the Flatbush-Manhattan local connecting track on a lower level with it's own platfrom and then rejoining the line on the other side of Nostrand.
This station is already two levels--Manhattan bound on one livel and Brooklyn Bound on the other. To add another level and then have the first station so close--It is already a fairly deep station! do we need another deep station with very long escalators like smith and 9th that are al;ways out of order or elevators that get stuck.
The reason the #3 heads out to New Lots is that Livonia is their barn. Each line has it's own barn and this provides easy access for the #3's. If let's say for some reason there is a problem with a #5 that lays up in Livonia Yard, it will be transferred up to 239 Yard (eventually East 180th Barn when it reopens) to be worked on and a replacement will be transferred back.
This is why the 2/5 and 3/4 service was swapped back when it was, so each line had a barn on their line.
A reason you don't want 4 and 5 trains towards New Lots and 2 and 3 trains to Flatbush is that you want each branch to have a service to Lex and to 7th Av.
Also, how many at grade crossings like that are there(in 4/5/99 useage)?
The only other flat crossing I can think of is the 2/3 split before 145st. Nothing else sees regular service. Maybe G Relays @ Queens Plaza.
-Hank
Myrtle-Broadway on the M is the other one I can think of, and since it's elevated, it's the easiest one to look at.
Myrtle-Broadway is also unique in that the grade crossing crosses an oncomming track, not just an express or local track in the same direction.
Well, so would a southbound 2. Myrtle/B'way is unique in being a 3-track level crossing.
-Hank
The problem with the Franklin Av. situation is that there are four lines through there at Rush Hour. The idea of having the (2) and (5) go to Flatbush and the (3) and (4) to Utica/New Lots is to provide service to both Manhattan main lines from each branch. In each case the local track is in the southerly tunnel, so the (5) has to first cross to the local track from the express and then take the switch for Flatbush or, returning, enter the local track and then cross to the express. Putting the (5) on the local track after Nevins St. would reduce the switching problems at Franklin, but overload the local track and possibly cause delays at Nevins or Atlantic. Another option might be to run the (5) to Utica and run a shuttle in between the regular service from Atlantic to Flatbush. This could reverse on the middle track between Atlantic & Nevins, but again the local would be overloaded, and again delays would hit at Atlantic & Nevins since the shuttle would have to cross the express to reverse. The track layout between Atlantic and Franklin makes innovation virtually impossible!
Well numerous goes to Utica and New Lots anyway, so it wouldn't make a difference. I like the idea of making the Flatbush bound local from Nevins to Flatbush.
if you look at the dual contracts tunnel drawings by Joe Brennan on this site, there is a bottlneck in the IRT track layout causinf trains fron two routes to use a single track through the interlocking.
I suspect that hooking the shuttle into the Fulton line would be as expensive an undertaking, if not more so, as the Queens connection to the 63rd street tunnel now under construction. And (correct me if I'm wrong) there's not sufficient track capacity through the tunnels used by the A/C for a Brighton reroute.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Capacity of the Cranberry Tunnel) There are only 21 to 23 trains going through at rush hour. I believe you could run through up to 30.
The maximum number is probably a little lower than the theoretical maximum of 30 here because of the merge of the local and express tracks which requires several seconds of time to reset the switches properly. Trains have always tended to be slowed between Lafayette and Hoy-Schmerhorn to allow the local in or the express to pass.
Once reconstruction of this line is done, will they continue to run R68s, or will they go back to the R32s? If they decide to use R68s on the Franklin Ave. Shuttle will it a 2 or 3 car train?
There will be nine R-68s (2716 - 2724) that will not be linked into 4 - car units. These cars will be assigned to Franklin Shuttle service.
I think they should drag out the R-11 Transit Museum car when they do the Inaugural run/press event for the reopening ceremonies in December. Any thoughts?
Good idea! Too bad they don't have any other cars that rode the line in service (before the R32s). I guess a couple of R32s (3669-3628?)
could be mated up with the R11.
Wayne
To me, the best restoration of Franklin service would be BMT Standards, with the big white circles they used to have on the ends, running express to at least Coney Island. Through Coney Island and up the Sea Beach, just like they did before the TA wiped it out, would be fun, too.
(Though it would be more like the TA's general attitude toward old BMT routes if they simply cut the track connection from the Franklin route to the Brighton after the Shuttle reopens so there'd be no possibility of through service down the Brighton again--cranes and flatbeds could be used to move the cars elsewhere.)
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Actually, I'd prefer they run the R-11 on the main line and put all the R-68s on the Franklin shuttle -- as slow as they are, getting them off all the mainline routes would have to speed up service.
Great idea!!! We'll line up 425 R-68s on the shuttle and let people walk through the cars from one end of the line to the other. Unfortunately, with just one R-11 car remaining, service on the D and N might be a little sparce. Keep thinking though!!!
And it would probably be faster than the R-68s running under their own power!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems that the R-68s are destined to be the "Rodney Dangerfield" of mass transit. For the record, I was against removing the field shunting from the 75 foot cars......
The few times I have a chance to work the N, if I am stuck operating an R68, a speed of 18 M.P.H. going up the hill from the 60th St. tube into Queensboro Plaza is about the max. And that's with a good train. Those cars need all the power they can muster due to their weight.
I know the feeling. On one R-68 we hit a max of 54 MPH at the bottom of the 60th St. tube but just as you said, by the time we reached Queensboro Plaza we were doing an astonishing 17 MPH. The problem is that while the 60 foot cars were delivered with 100 HP motors and were upgraded to 115 HP during GOH, the 75 foot cars always had 115 HP motors. There might have been a need to slow up the 60 foot cars but the 75 footers were fine as delivered.
The BMT standards used to do the same thing in the 14th St. tunnel. At the lowest point in the tunnel, they were really moving, but as they labored uphill, their speed and gear pitch would gradually decrease.
Field Shunting increases speed but decreases power. A car with shunting disabled should do better on a steep upgrade than one with the shunts in. Another factor here is gearing, the greater the ratio, the better the climbing ability but the slower the top speed. Thaty is why the Steinway Tunnel cars were kept separate from the main line cars, they were geared slower for hill climbing. Lastly comes weight. The need to overcome friction and gravity and doing so with the same motors on a 75 foot car as on a 60 foot car might not be all that bad. Remember that 8 75 foot cars may in fact weigh less than ten 60' cars since a lot of the weight is in the trucks and motors.
The cunundrum in all this is to keep the cars matched well enough where they mix without endangering anyone. If the slow cars don't get you the grade timers will. :)
In other words, field shunting can be thought of as overdrive; i. e., fifth gear on a 5-speed overdrive manual transmission. You don't want to use fifth when climbing a hill; you'll lose speed and lug the engine. Same idea.
A good comparison!
Taking it one step further, there have been comments on how reduced speeds have saved power consumption, reduced wear on switch contacts, etc. A good analogy was when the 55 mph speed limit was enacted during the Arab oil embargo. It was intended to reduce energy use, which it did, but it also resulted in reduced traffic fatalities. On the flip side, it was stupid in western states with their wide open spaces. Granted, I don't think too much of Mr. Bill in general, and didn't vote for him in either election, but I do give him credit for returning speed limit determination to the states. It's nice to have 75 mph speed limits again in Colorado.
Now, if they could only speed up the trains a bit, maybe to at least 40 mph, and make that express run on the D a little more exciting.
Just to dispel potential misinformation. I've seen various
people write "they took out the field shunting coils". That's
not correct. The field shunting coils are still very much there
AND connected.
First, what is a "field shunt coil"? It is a coil which can be
placed in parallel with the field windings of the traction motors.
Normally, the field coils are in series with the armature windings.
By placing the FS coils in parallel, a portion of the current is
steered around the field windings, or "shunted". This means that
the motor has a weakened magnetic field, which reduces both
torque and counter-EMF. The field shunt coils are tapped so that
3 different amounts of field shunting can be introduced.
Field shunting is used in 3 distinct places in the acceleration
and dynamic braking controls of a typical SMEE subway car.
1) When the train is first started, the fields are shunted. This
minimizes jerk and lurch and allows the train to start rolling
gradually. A split second later, the fields are un-shunted and
the train begins to accelerate at 2.5 MPH/sec.
2) When the motorman shuts off, but does not make a brake application.
Although we call that "coasting", in fact the dynamic brake circuit
is set up. The fields are fully shunted which results in
low generated EMF, low braking current, and therefore almost
imperceptible braking effort. The dynamic brake circuit is thus
held ready, so that the instant the motorman slides the brake valve
into a service position, the fields are unshunted and the dynamic
brake applies instantly, rather than waiting for dynamic brake
current loop buildup.
3) At the end of the acceleration cycle, as the train passes approx
30 MPH. The fields are shunted in 3 stages. The counter-EMF, which
opposes the applied third rail voltage, is thus reduced and the
motor, which would have otherwise reached "balancing" speed at
maybe 35 MPH is allowed to continue to accelerate.
The recent field-shunt modifications only affect the third case.
Remember those "Energy Conservation" switches that say "Local/Express"
and were often confused with marker light switches? All that
did was prevent the final field shunt. Effectively, the trains have
been rewired so that switch is always in the Local position.
But local trains typically still zoom along while expresses crawl. Maybe the wires got crossed...
But it seems that the faster cars are always on the local tracks. i.e. R38 "C" trains roaring past half-asleep R44 "A" trains or even slower R68 "D" trains. The R38 and Slant R40 seem to be the quickest ones in the "B" division. I get a kick every time I think of how that "Q" train made short work of the "D" locals, happens every day, one would think.
Wayne
Put those same R-38s on the A, and what do you get? Well, that A train would probably run neck and neck with a C. BTW, those R-44s are always half-asleep, anyway. The R-68s? Even Jolt Cola couldn't help them.
My most memorable neck and neck run was in May of 1967, on a downtown AA from either 81st or 72nd, with a D train. Both trains were R-1/9s. Bull and pinion gears wailing away at about E above middle C, I-beams flashing by, the "Coney Island" side destination signs shining brightly on the D train... Yes, those R-1/9 side signs were still illuminated in 1967. It wasn't long before you almost never saw that anymore.
I was on an uptown AA once from 59th St., and it was tryng to play catchup with a D train of R-32s. No chance, not the way the R-32s could move. The R-10s vs the R-32s - now THAT would be a race! What the heck - throw in the slant R-40s and make it a threesome!
In that category, my favorite is the Lex (acutally Park Ave.) coming out of Grand Central towards 33rd St., with local and express Redbirds. The 6 would usually catch up and slowly start to pass the 4 or 4 until right about the time the express tracks begin to duck down and the local starts to slow for 33rd. If you were near the front of the 6, you'd get an advance, retreat and then look down as the rear cars of the express shot by below.
I was thinking today what those R68 & 68A's replaced. The R10's, 16's & 27/30. Maybe the 16's were slow, but no much slower than the R68/68A. As for the R10's, fortunately the conductor does not have to go in between cars for door operation anymore. The R27/30: pernalized because they had no a/c. I enjoyed immensely operating those cars and miss them. They got scrapped well before their time. After all, there are IRT cars still running which are older than them (R26/28). On balance tho, junk replaced cars which served the TA well.
That depends on your definition of junk. It's true that back in the 60s and 70s, maintenance sucked. If we had the same maintenance standards then that we do now, one could only imagine how well the R-16s or R-27s would have performed. However, the R-68s (which were the joke of the transit industry 5 years ago) now have an MDBF of over 100,000 miles. The R-46s before overhaul had an MDBF of under 15,000 miles and now run at around 80,000 and will be at 100,000 within a year. In longevity, the same is true. Back in the days of the R-9 to R-30, the life expectancy of a subway car was 35 years. Today we are looking at 45 to 50 years with the current fleet. You can remember the old classic cars fondly, but performance-wise, the current fleet of cars will kick ass.
Steve,
At the risk of dissapointing many fans of the new cars, the many of the ABs were NEVER rebuilt and still lasted 45 years or more. For example, the 2000 series of ABs that were built in 1914 were never rebuilt and did not go to the scrapper until 1961 and on! That would make them at LEAST 47 year old at their demise. Not bad for an underpowered, unrebuilt workhorse.
As for the D-types, the only reason they met such an early demise was the fact that the TA wanted to get rid of all non-conventional equipment, regardless of their condition. According to Don Harold, the D-types were in excellent shape and would have lasted at least 10 more years. And this was in spite of the fact that the D-types had not even received routine outshop work for at least 15 years!
I guess I have a lean more towards the older equipment, so excuse my bias, but even if the newer equipment does last 45-50 years, one can not overlook the fact that all of this newer received extensive rebuilds, something the older cars never recieved.
I guess "Gimme dem old time subway cars, They're good enough for me!"
Mike H
And let's not forget those pioneers of steel subway cars, the Gibbs Hi-Vs. As an entire fleet, they lasted 50 years, and three of them pushed 53 years.
The common denominator for all those prewar IRT and BMT units is that they were well-designed and well-built pieces of equipment. Good design is a major contributor to long life. Look at the Triplexes. Even with virtually no maintenance, they just kept going and going and going.
I wouldn't say the BMT standards were underpowered. I thought their acceleration was pretty good. Then again, by the time I was riding them, only the rebuilt units were still running.
P. S. I still say that a train of R-10s could blow the doors off a train of R-68s.
From what you gentlemen have been saying about the speed of the R-68's and what I have observed myself it sounds like the Q's could have blown the doors off an R-68.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Is that Q's as BMT built them, or after the IRT butcher job?
Dan: The Q's did slow down after they received the IRT Composite trucks, but the railfans were very tolerant of them due to their advanced age and their being the last wooden cars in service. After all nobody expects their grandmother to run the mile in under four minutes(maybe five). The R-68 don't have the excuse of age. They seem to be just plain lazy.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R-68s should have kept the field shunting. At least it would make the D express run up CPW just a little more exciting. It wouldn't be enough to make us compare the R-68s to a cheetah, but at least we wouldn't be comparing them to a hippopotamus. (Can an elephant outrun a hippo?) Maybe the noise level needs to be turned up a decibel or two. Part of the excitement of an express dash on the R-10s was the sound level. It made you think you were going even faster, as if they weren't fast enough. Of course, if you really want deafening noise, ride a Chicago L train in either of their subway sections. Compared to Chicago's subways, the R-10s weren't anywhere near as loud.
Steve
Actually if I'm not mistaken I believe that the Q-cars take the record for overall longevity. The 1200 and 1400 BUs that comprised the Qs were built in 1904 and earlier.
While they received extensive cosmetic changes to convert them to the Qs for the 1939 World's Fair, I do not believe they underwent mechanical rebuilding to their propulsion systems. They still had their Peckam trucks and motors until they were transferred to the IRT for 3rd Ave El service. Even then they did not get a overhaul, what they did receive the rundown worn out IRT composite trucks which were supposed to be lighter, even though they severely compromised their speed performance!
So it's conceivable to think that the Qs might have received cosmetic changes throughout their service lives, but mechanically they did not recieve an upgrade, but rather a downgrade with the placing of the Composite trucks underneath them.
When removed from service in 1969 with the demise of the Myrtle Ave El, the Qs were at least 65 years old!
Mike H
Perhaps you are correct but I did state in my post that I was including cars from the R-1/9 and up.
Steve,
As fond as I am of the R9s, I have to agree with you on this. The R9s were plagued with problems towards the end of their careers, even to the point of actual discussions taking place of scrapping the R9s ahead of the ABs, which were anywhere from 10 to 15 years older!
All of this goes to show everyone that deferred maintenance exacts a much higher toll financially and physically than if you pay the money up front to keep the cars properly maintained.
There's an old saying with autos that fits subway cars too: "it takes 10 minutes and 10 dollars to change the oil, it takes 10 hours and 2 thousand dollars to change an engine!"
Mike H
Better yet, how many of you remember the Fram oil filter commercials with the mechanic saying, "The choice is yours: you can pay me now or pay me later"? My Jeep wouldn't be rolling 358,000 miles today on the original, untouched engine if I had neglected it, or kept putting off oil changes. Deferred maintenance is really another way of saying putting off maintenance.
If there was any piece of equipment which could have held up in the face of deferred maintenance, it would have been the Triplexes, no doubt. As I said earlier, I'll bet they would have kept right on rolling along into the 1980s while the rest of the fleet was limping along on the verge of collapse.
P. S. I was referring specifically to subway cars, not el cars; however, you're right about the Qs lasting 60+ years.
Was there ever any thought given to shaving back the platforms on the Myrtle Ave. el so that the multisectionals could run all the way to Jay St? Or were the clearances not adequate to begin with?
Steve,
At the risk of dissapointing many fans of the new cars, many of the ABs were NEVER rebuilt and still lasted 45 years or more. For example, the 2000 series of ABs that were built in 1914 were never rebuilt and did not go to the scrapper until 1961 and on! That would make them at LEAST 47 year old at their demise. Not bad for an underpowered, unrebuilt workhorse.
As for the D-types, the only reason they met such an early demise was the fact that the TA wanted to get rid of all non-conventional equipment, regardless of their condition. According to Don Harold, the D-types were in excellent shape and would have lasted at least 10 more years. And this was in spite of the fact that the D-types had not even received routine outshop work for at least 15 years!
I guess I have a lean more towards the older equipment, so excuse my bias, but even if the newer equipment does last 45-50 years, one can not overlook the fact that all of this newer equipment received extensive rebuilds, something the older cars never recieved.
I guess "Gimme dem old time subway cars, They're good enough for me!"
Mike H
I second your thought. The R-68s feel as if they'd barely make it up the hill.
--Mark
Thank you for getting my point.
R11 with OPTO??? Yah Right!! >G<
This one gave me a good laugh today :)
Would all 425 cars fit :)
--Mark
Mark: That's the best suggestion I have yet heard about the R-68's. They could be lined up end to end and the passengers could walk through from Prospect Park to Franklin Av. It would probably be faster.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As a matter of fact, at one time, that's exactly what they did. There is a photo in Gotham Turnstiles of an R-11 coupled to a pair of R-32s on the Franklin Ave. shuttle.
Too bad there wasn't such an outcry 30 years ago when the Myrtle Ave. el was shut down. In those days, the word "air pollution" was not a part of our vocabulary and diesel fuel for the buses was dirt cheap.
You know, 40 years ago things that happened at the same time were assumed to cause each other. New roads caused more people to drive more miles. Removing el's increased property values.
Neither of those correlations were really true. New roads were built at a time when more people were driving -- we stopped building roads and people continued to drive more. And Manhattan was booming when the pulled down the el's. It has continued to boom, but removing the el's in the outer borough has had the opposite effect, if any. Like anything else, you get used to it. I lived half a block away from the #1 in Kingsbridge, and after a month or so I never heard it.
I was walking on 43rd Street recently between and 10th and 11th and saw an open cut with two set of tracks. Are these the rails that Amtrak uses for its trips upstate?? I'm assuming they are but this was the first time I've seen them.
[I was walking on 43rd Street recently between and 10th and 11th and saw an open cut with two set of tracks. Are these the rails that Amtrak uses for its trips upstate??]
Correct.
On Saturday, I will be riding around the 4th Ave, Broadway, Brighton, Nassau, West End, Sea Beach & 6th Ave trying to get some good station and train pics. If anyone has any seugestions please email me @ JTToad98@AOL.com. Thanks.
Anthony
I would also appreciate any suggestions anyone has for photo spots. If anyone has some, if you could post them here as well, I would apreciate it. Thanks.
I know that many of you are involved in Museums, and train models. A freind of mine Tom Matola, who retired from the City of Milwaukee and was very Active at the East Troy Railroad Museum, passed away in mid March.
Tom was a great historian of electric trains. He was esecially interested in Birney safty cars, PCC cars and Milwaukee Electric cars.
His PCC history article is posted on NYCSUBWAY.ORG's PCC Streetcars on the WWW web page.
Give it a look and remember him fondly. I will
Why doesnt the MTA design the new cars they buy to look like the older ones? I personally though the R62, R62A for IRT and R44-46 were the best looking cars ever bought by the mta. Why change? Does the MTA design the cars and just pay to have thenm built or does Virgil conway walk into a bombardier or kawasaki showroom and pick out a model?
No, he merely uses the Yellow Pages and looks up 'Used Subway Car Dealers' and goes for the lowest bid. ;)
Excellant idea.
In fact, I wrote a letter to Conway regarding this subject two years ago and got zip in response (TYPICAL T.A.!!!!!!)
Anyway, I would love to see a return to more traditional designs with modern twists, like IRT cars with a black floors (like the handful of R-68A's), or black and white tiled floors, dark gray bench seats, light gray fiberglass wall panels, straps (Redbird-type straps -- I don't can't remember the type number offhand), air conditioning vents that resemble the axiflow fan vents, drop-down side and storm doors windows (like the R-21), and side door windows with rubber or no lining (instead of steel).
The exterior would be similar to the R-62, with the exception of the windows, and a BLUE STRIPE ACROSS THE SIDE AND BLUE STORM DOORS!!!
Do the same to the R-62!!
How about a reincarnation of the R-10??? Almost exacly the same as the real mccoy, only air conditioned.
Now I'm getting carried away, I'm afraid . . . but I don't see why it can't be done.
Do you have any idea the added maintainence costs for this stuff? Repainting doors and sidestripes if the car is graffitied, when all you must do is clean them? Windows that slide up and down, wide enough for someone to put a body part through (which is the reason for the move away from that type window) The lawsuit potential of the windows? Leaky all-rubber window gaskets, rather than the sainless steel and rubber 'leakproff' type? (I say 'leakproff' because they do, eventually, leak. But rubber goes a lot faster!)
How about the loss of headroom from those axiflows? Replaceing torn and cut straps? Individual floor tiles with multiple seeems that can cause a tile to pull up?
They've come a long way with subway car design, why go backwards?
-Hank
I have to agree. We should not hope too hard that the TA runs the transit system to please subway buffs!
You've got my vote for an R-10 reincarnation - as long as they're assigned to the A line and as long as they're as fast as the originals.
My design for the "Classic R10" includes the following:
* Air conditioning (dropdown ceiling at car ends)
* Original seating layout but with R44 type seats in shades of blue and grey
* Original curved handholds and straps
* PCC Bullet style lighting down the sides
* Interior ogee ceiling is replaced by R38 style with two A/C vents and partial strip lighting (shades like R44/R46)
* Signs above the windows like before but with bright digital displays.
Wayne
I like that. Maybe they can scrap the R44's.
Send the R44s to the "E" line!
Some pal you are. Are you going to supply the lubrication to get me in and out of the seat behind that tight console? May you have all CI 42's next pick with lousy air conditioning and 2 buffs driving you nuts at the same time.
I think we'll see some Slant R40s over there on occassion.
And put more R-32s or slant R-40s on the A!!!
One more thing I forgot to add,
my "fantasy" IRT car would also have the traditional destination/marker light set-up in the front, but the signs would be electronic.
The side signs would be just like the ones in the Redbirds, but also electronic.
The CTA (Chicago Transit Authority) has finally posted it's new web site. They have been promissing it since January and it's pretty neat.
The new address is:
http://www.yourcta.com
(kinda like the toll-free customer hotline 1-888-YOUR-CTA)
I think there are a few bugs that can be worked out, but otherwise it is nice.
The only draw back is the trip planner isn't up yet, but today being the first day for the new site, it should be soon since they have a professional web design company doing the site.
Anyway, what do ya think?
BJ
The site is an improvement over what they had.
I found out though that you can't read ANY of the schedules unless you have an Adobe Acrobat Reader.
However, once you've installed the Reader, the schedules are quite detailed.
Each line is listed and ALL station times are listed for each line.
Example: Ravenswood (Brown) Line (SB) starts at Kimball and lists train times for all trains to Belmont. Then the next schedule lists all trains stopping at station from Belmont to the Loop.
The schedules are quite comprehensive.
Jim K
My plan has always been to extend the L to run up 10th Ave and then, just North of 42nd Street have it jog just West of 10th Ave. into the cut of the old NY Central and up to the new development in the train yards south of Riverside Park where it would connect with the 1,2,3 at 72nd Street; And potentially run East under 72nd Street to York Avenue stopping at CPW, 5th Ave., and Lex.
However I am realistic enough to know that not a single new spike will ever be driven for the NY Subway so I would like to propose an alternate plan that may appease a whole different crowd.
Why not run traffic through the cut from 34th Street and feed it directly into the Lincoln Tunnel? And, similarly run Traffic from 57th Street thorugh the cut and feed the Tunnel? This way, tunnel Traffic could bypass numerous lights and intersections and West Side tunnel congestion might be streamlined.
One minor problem with that - the old NYC cut is now used by Amtrak for access to Penn Station from the north.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I suggest that you check the archives. That's hardly a new idea as I proposed it about 6 weeks ago.
Yesterday's Daily News had a short article by James Rutenberg about the MVMs at the first two locations in Manhattan that have been double charging about 3,000 credit card customers (of the first 35,000 total). Further in the article it says that 2,650 of them already got their accounts credited, but not David Klein.
Copyright disclaimer: Have mentioned the publication & author by name & quoted less then 400 words from article.
Mr t__:^)
For those of you interested in car equipment oddities, this Redbird #8660 in Pelham/Parkchester service has interior modifications. I'm not sure when they were done but anyway...there are stanchions all over the place. Not just down the middle of the car, but at the end of every bench seat. You walk into the car and all you see is chrome. It reminds me of the monkeybars from years ago.
I'm heading out to LGA from Midtown this afternoon to pick up a relative.
Anyone have a suggested favorite subway/bus routing?
Thanks and Happy Holidays to all!!
Chuck
Depending on where you are, take an E, F, or R to Roosevelt Ave., or 7 local to 74th St., and change to the Q33 bus. It'll take you right to your terminal.
P. S. Don't get on a 7 express by mistake, because it won't stop at 74th St.
Thanks, Steve...
Worked like a charm.
Chuck
To Steve, my museum friends and those across the 'Pond':
Last Sunday I got dragged into another one of those projects at Seashore. Mike Simonds decided that he wanted the lights working on our Sydney Australia car #1700. That accomplished he asked whether the lights in the advertising signs could be made to work. After dinging up a replacement for a failed resistor we were successful with one circuit. A second will probably work when a disconnected wire is properly reconnected. The other two are missing their flourescent tubes. Of course these are DC tubes, and a have a peculiar type of contact. The part number is Philips TLR40W/33. In the circuit they operate at .39 Amps and 100 Volts.
Does anyone know whether these tubes are available or know of any other equipment which has them?
check out WWW.lighting.philips.com/forum/forum_3/wwwboard.html
I checked the philips website but had no luck as yet.
www.lighting.philips.com
I can check the TA computer for an alternate source on Monday
Steve
Check out http://www.anybulb.com/index.htm and send them a query.
Thanks Steve:
After a quick look around the Philips Website, I found a spec sheet and order number for that lamp in their European Catalog and forwarded the data to the shop in Maine.
Spent the better part of an hour downloading a plug-in so that I could read it though :)
Glad to be of help.
We at Kingston can not find a manufacturer for the green DC railway destination side sign bulbs either after years of searching. When it fails you'll have to make a new bulb fit by modifying the fixtures
my grandpa told me he spent time in your city after world war 2 and could ride your trains for only 5 cents. he said your train people had very small vending machines right in the stations that sold candy and gum for only a penny. i didn't believe that you could by candy and gum for a penny. he said the gum was chicklits and they were too in a box. where did everybody put there used gum. you must had some dirty trains with all the old gum. were they really only a penny. i like to read all your speaches.
Yes, gum was only a penny back in those days! I'm just a bit too young to remember that myself, but I lived in Barcelona, Spain back in the early '70s and remember candy (similar to the Starburst candy that is sold in this country) being available from vending machines on the platform - two (or perhaps three - my memory fails me) pieces in a small cardboard box for 1 peseta (about 1 1/2 cents at the time). Gum, mints, and nuts were also available at similar prices (although only the gum and candy seemed to be available in all stations). The fare was 3 pesetas (4 1/2 cents) when I first arrived and went up to 4 pesetas (6 cents) before I returned to the US. And the stations were very clean on the Metro. The Ferrocarriles de Cataluna were another story - not that they were real dirty, but they always appeared to be because they weren't as well lit and because there were always used tickets on the floor.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can still buy candy in London and Paris (sodas in Paris as well). Great way to ditch your small coin change before coming back home!
-Dave
Candy and gum are now sold at newsstands in the subway as is water and soda.
tarheel, Your grandfather is exactly right. There were penny vending machines right on the platforms where the trains came in. They were very small machines and were of three different types. There were gum machines that dispensed a stick of gum(sorry, no bubble gum). Other machines dispensed small bite-sized pieces, wrapped in tinfoil of various types of Hershey's Choclates. The third type of machine would dispense a small handful of salted peanuts for a penny. These machines were only located at the busiest stations. Other stations had no vending machines at all. Penny candy was not unusual in those days. The candy bars that cost 35 to 50 cents today were only a nickel in those days. Gum has always been a problem on the subway system but I don't think that the gum sold in the 1940's was as sticky or messy as the gum sold today.
Karl B
Those penny gum machines were the original "One Armed Bandits."
The penny peanut machines were really bad. You could put a penny in and be looking at a full machine. You would throw the lever from right to left, and absolutely nothing would come down the chute. This seemed to happen about 50% of the time. I got to the point that I would not even attempt to use a machine that appeared to be full.
I made an inquiry about Kansas City Elevated Rapid Transit Line on the subtalk board. There was only one response at the time.
I did a web search on "kansas city rapid transit history".
Michael Good's name came up in the search. I contacted him regarding the Kansas City Elevated Rapid Transit Line. Mr. Good, who is a Webmaster at Tacnet and a Reference Librarian at the Henry County Library in Missouri, sent this information to us for the subtalk board.
This is his response:
The only book I know about that says anything about the Kansas City
elevated in Geroge W. Hilton book "The Cable Car in America".
It was printed by Howell-North in 1971 and reprinted in paperback
in 1997. You can find it at Amazon.com and probably most large libraries
would have a copy. All the information I have comes from that book.
The Kansas City elevated line extended from near 5th & Central on the
bluff in Kansas City, Kansas east above Central and 9th Streets across the
West Bottoms to St. Louis Avenue, then east over private right of way to
the west portal of the tunnel through Quality Hill. It was always more or
less a part of the streetcar system, rather than being an independent
rapid transit system like the New York and Chicago Els; the entry into
downtown ran through the Quality Hill tunnel and then on street trackage
on 8th Street.
The pictures in Hilton's book show two stations, at St. Louis Avenue and
at Mulberry St; I suspect there were others. St. Louis Avenue was
originally the station where the change from steam dummy to cable traction
was made and also close to the original (1877-1914) Kansas City Union
Depot. From the pictures of the el in its early days and a picture near
the end of operations in the 1950s the structure must have been almost
totally rebuilt at some point to a much heavier standard.
The elevated was built by the Inter-State Consolidated Rapid Transit
Railway as part of a mixed system of steam dummy surface trackage plus a
cable line in what is now Kansas City, Kansas, the elevated steam dummy
trackage to St. Louis Avenue, and a cable line thence through the Quality
Hill tunnel into downtown Kansas City, Missouri.
ISCRT opened its steam dummy line on October 10, 1886, from the elevated
station at St. Louis Avenue (just north of the old Union Depot), westerly
above 9th Street and Central across the Kansas River to ground level at
5th Street, then north on 6th to Washington Boulevard, east on Washington
to 5th, and north on 5th to Edgerton Place. In 1887 a branch of the steam
dummy system was built 5th Street in Wyandotte west via Stewart and
Glendale to Chelsea Park, an amusement part established by the ISCRT's
owners.
On April 24, 1888 ISCRT opened its cable line, extended from the St. Louis
Avenue Station on an elevated line to the Quality Hill bluff, then through
a 880-ft tunnel on an 8% grade to a portal at 8th & Washington, and east
on 8th to Delaware Street. Powerhouse for the cable was at the west portal
of the tunnel, above Bluff Street.
On May 22, 1888 ISCRT opened its Riverview cable line, extending
from a connection with the dummy at 5th & Riverview Blvd (now Central),
west on Riverview to 18th Street, with a powerhouse at 10th Street.
The original plan of the ISCRT was for special non-passenger carrying grip
cars to haul the dummy line passenger cars into downtown, but it soon
proved that even with the reduced grade the tunnel provided the load was
too much and sometime in the summer of 1888 the 8th Avenue line traded
equipment with the Riverview cable line, which had standard grips and
trailers. After the switch the Riverview line worked its traffic with
dummy line passenger cars hauled behind the non-passenger carrying grips.
Main line passengers changed cars at St. Louis from dummy line equipment
to cable equipment.
In October of 1889 the ISCRT went bankrupt, and the Kansas City, Kansas
council approved converting the Riverview line to steam dummy operation,
which conversion was carried out on January 3, 1890.
In 1892 the ISCRT was reorganized as the Kansas City Elevated Railway.
In the summer of 1892 the 8th Street cable line was converted to electric
operation using standard streetcar technology. By March 1, 1893 the entire
system had been converted to electricity.
In May of 1894 the Metropolitan Railway bought control of Kansas City
Elevated, but for legal reasons continued to operate it separately for a
number of years.
In 1904 the Quality Hill tunnel was rebuilt, reducing the grade from 8%
to 5% and moving the east portal two blocks east to Broadway & 8th Street.
This allowed Metropolitan to permit more than one car to be in the tunnel
at one time, increasing its capacity. The Elevated became one of the main
routes into Kansas City for the streetcars from Kansas City, Kansas until
all electric operations ceased in the 1950s. At that time the tunnel
portals were sealed up, although the tunnel itself is still in existence.
A year or two ago the Kansas City Star had an article about the tunnel,
which is apparently in very good shape still.
Hope this helps.
Michael Good mgood@tacnet.missouri.org
Webmaster at TACnet http://tacnet.missouri.org
Reference Librarian,
Henry County Library ayc000@mail.connect.more.net
I have already thanked Mr. Good for the info.
If someone would like to follow up this info with a route map,
or the route superimposed on a map of Kansas City, that would be helpful also.
Mellow One
Henry Elsner wrote a book entitled "Kansas City Streetcars Remembered". I'll try to find my copy and see if there is any info on the elevated in there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Found it! The cover photograph, in color, shows a PCC on the 8th Street Elevated on 15 October 1955. The 8th Street Tunnel and Elevated closed on 29 April 1956, a little over a year prior to abandonment of the entire system on 24 June 1957. Chapter three (pp. 54-62) has an additional 14 photographs, four of which are in color, and pg. 73 has a b&w photograph of work motor 041 exiting the tunnel at the western end.
Reference: Kansas City Streetcars Remembered by Henry Elsner, published by NJ International, 1991, ISBN 0-934088-27-6, Library of Congress 90-064423
If you want a copy and can't find the book through the usual sources let me know - I've got Henry's address, and I suspect he's got a few copies laying around. Or come to the National Trolley Meet in Pennsauken, NJ on 1 May 1999 and meet Henry for yourself - he hasn't missed one yet! (For more information on the Trolley Meet go to the home page of the East Penn Traction Club).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
About ten years ago, there was an article in an issue of Electric Lines Magazine about the Kansas City Elevated Line. I'm not sure if there was a map, but if I can find which issue it was in (I know I still have it), I will let you know. The article had photos of KC PCC's on the el.
Jeff.
When the M4 cars began running on the MKT-FKD Line all I saw on the SubTalk pages were words of praise for the long awaited new cars. When I tried to defend the M3's, replies from the Philly crowd were negative at best.
I was back east at Christmas time and was able to sample a few rides on the M4’s. It is just a typical transit car that is being produced to. No class, no charm, sealed windows and not worth the money SEPTA is paying for them.
Now I'm reading some disparaging postings on SubTalk about he M4 cars. What gives guys? All those fancy bells and whistles, which pump up the price of a transit car astronomically, can and will break down if not maintained properly. Can’t wait until the A/C starts giving out in July and August.
Get used to them, the M4 cars may be around as long as the M3's. No, nothing built in 1999 will outlast the Budd cars built at Red Lion in 1960-61.
Jim K.
From Chicago
Yes, Jim, where are all the M3 haters? While I don't hate the M4's (except for the pesky announcements, which, by the way, due to the placement of the speakers are hard as heck to hear if you're standing in the door areas - I tried this on Thursday on a trip), I always thought the Budds were being retired prematurely. The Budds perform well but haven't been maintained as diligently as they should, thus the early exit. I tend to think that the M4's won't last as long.
I just read in Cinders that, as a result of a mishap in the 69th Street Yard in February, 2 M4's were damaged, and one may be scrapped as a result. Hopefully this isn't a portend of things to come.
Personally, I don't think the M4's are "plain", and they are somewhat decorated on the interiors. The cushion seats are head and shoulders above the uncomfortable ones found on the K-cars, both trolley and subway. Let's hope the cushions last. Surprisingly, on the Ikarus buses, the cushions are faring well. I guess the days of seat slashing must have gone by the wayside. Or, the energies have been transformed into window scraping...
[ I guess the days of seat slashing must have gone by the wayside. Or, the energies have been transformed into window scraping... ]
Speaking of which, I noticed that the M-4s seem to have the mylar protective coating on the windows to protect against permanent scratchitti. It's a good thing, too - I've seen a good amount of scratchitti already on the new M-4s.
The protective film hasn't been faring so well on the buses. I've been told the "scratch artists" have figured that it's easier to etch on the outside of the windows where there is no protective film...
The CTA has come up with an idea scratched windows. I've been on a few buses that operate on the #77 Belmont. I was amazed that the windows were clear. Anyway, the program is that as the windows are replaced, four digital camera's are installed o the buses. One to take your picture while boarding/alighting at the front door, one to take your picture at the rear door, and one each facing forward and backward so the entire body of the bus is covered. Large signs point to the fact that you’re being watched. The program is confined to two bus garages to see the results.
I’m guessing that the cost of the camera equipment costs less than the cost of replacing bus windows.
CLTV, our local viewer service station, has run a program several times regarding this new program. It shows an "artist" at work, and subsequently arrested and hopefully convicted with the help of the cameras. It looks like the CTA is getting serious on this and a few other things.
Case in point, within the last six months "NO SMOKING" signs have appeared on all RT station platforms. The other week at Belmont I heard a transit cop yell across the platform to those smoking that it was illegal on CTA vehicles and property. Now, he didn’t make a move to inforce it, however, two or three smokers were intimidated enough to put their cigarettes out.
Next, the "Tribune" will be complaining about police brutality on the CTA.
Several years ago, on a bus ride home in the early afternoon (I bugged out of the office early for some reason), I watched a couple of kids pull out an awl and pass it between them. They chatted a little about what they were going to do. I stopped them in their tracks by merely saying "don't do it". I was surprised I said this (the mouth was a couple of steps ahead of the brain - these kids had a pointy object, and there were two of them), but they listened and put it away. When the kids left the bus, another rider chided me for my comment, saying that the kids weren't bothering anyone. Besides, the kids might have decided to carve up some innocent riders, so we should just let them have their youthful fun on the bus windows. I let this guy have a few words of my own, so I know what you mean about the way people think about transit vehicles.
It bugs me that people treat this defacement, just like graffiti, as art. I get ticked when people leave gum and empty chip bags behind - I'd hate to start allowing "youthful indiscretions" such as scratching as something we should overlook. I'm all for crackdowns on this type of behavior and I hope the police here in Phila do as they say they are planning and emulate the zero tolerance ways of New York.
How the hell do they scratch the OUTSIDE of the windows? If it's while the buses are parked at the depot, SEPTA better work on their security.
-Hank
I've heard a couple of ways - the most popular appears to be while buses are lined up at schools at dismissal (several special school routes involve this type of operation), with the other being while buses are on layover. I hope the vandals aren't getting 'behind the lines' in the bus depots, although this happened in the graffiti years of the late 70's/early 80's and led to SEPTA's fencing and gating of its mainly until then open depots. Only Frankford Depot is still fairly accessible among the currently-operating bases. During middays, a couple of routes still unload their end-of-route crowds within the southernmost bay at Frankford.
[The cushion seats are head and shoulders above the uncomfortable ones found on the K-cars, both trolley and subway. Let's hope the cushions last.]
Two things regarding the seat cushions. First, hopefully the riders will appreciate the "comfort" that SEPTA paid for. But, we don't need to go into that. Those seats, I predict, will be replaced by hard plastic with five years. The padded seats will be too much of a temptation for those who also insist on etching their "sign" or whatever on the windows. I say, we catch the bastards that deface the cars and make them clean them on the weekends. I know that will never happen!
Secondly, I’ve found the cloth inserts used on CTA’s bus and rail cars out here in Chicago to have their problems also. Do you want to sit in a seat that has been occupied by a “homeless” person for the past six hours? Their presence has been known to linger after they leave the vehicle. These “upholstered” seats, together with lack of maintenance or cleaning, are just downright unsanitary.
That is why I stand on most of my trips back and forth to the Loop.
Jim K.
Chicago
[I just read in Cinders that, as a result of a mishap in the 69th Street Yard in February, 2 M4's were damaged, and one may be scrapped as a result. Hopefully this isn't a portend of things to come.]
I don't recall reading that in Cinders (I’ve kept my membership in the Philadelphia Chapter of NRHS even though I now live in Chicago). I may have missed it, but then, I may have not have received my copy yet. It is one of the MANY transit/railroading publications I receive in a month, but I’d rate it as one of the best for being news worthy on the SE PA scene and right up there with the NY Division Letter of ERA.
Unfortunately, it looks like the fleet is destined to be one that was never "complete". So someone destroyed a $1.5 million dollar car?
I'm not going to get on my soapbox today about the incompetence of the transit business today.
Jim K.
Chicago
This item is in the April Cinders which I received on Friday. You'll probably see yours shortly.
Unfortuantely, I think you're correct - the cushions will go the way of the dinosaur at some point. However, SEPTA never gave up on the cushions on the Budds. Maybe this tells us something.
You're also correct on the cushion/cloth inserts. Too often, even those who aren't homeless leave some lingering effects on a hot day. I'm not sure what to do about this. SEPTA seems to be good at maintenance of the inserts, although sometimes duct tape is the replacement material of choice.
Yes, yes I'll admit I was one of those "wishy-washy" people who didn't wait until he sampled the product to determine whether he liked it or not( in the end he didn't).
Just so overtaken with the signs and the shiny exteriors that I didn't realize I was dealing with the Bill Clinton of subway cars(slick on the outside-trouble on the bottom);).
The brakes, the announcements, the not always accurate signage or operational doors and a ride I find no smoother than an RTS down Chestnut Street finally knocked me back into place.
Quoth George Costanza, "I'm back, baby, I'm back!"
In the beginning, Jack, you were very critical regarding my views of the M4. I conceded because I hadn't had the chance to ride the new equipment. I've been down this road before.
On my Christmas visit back to Pennsylvania to visit family I had the chance to sample the M4. On Monday, December 28th, four of my railfan friends and I validated our SEPTA Day Passes at Bridge-Pratt. We tried to cover the MFSE, Subway Surface and at least one Red Arrow (Media) or the P&W. Unfortunately, an offered ride to bring the #8534 back from Woodland Heavy Repair to Elmwood put a damper on that schedule. But that, is another story.
Our group boarded a train of M4’s at the end of the rush hour. While impressed with the cars, I still question “will all the bell’s and whistles will be working as intended in five years.”
Anyway, we made our way out to Millbourne station to photograph off the “bridge” there. We were treated with an assortment of M3 and M4 trains. We boarded a M3 train and rode back to downtown exiting at 13th Street. Of course we needed to visit the SEPTA transit shop. When we boarded a train back to Bridge-Pratt, it was an M3 train. At 8th Street we were stopped for a “breakdown” of an M4 train at 2nd Street. The operator of our train had his door open. Of course we began a conversation. He isn’t entirely sold on the new equipment either. His fear was what would he do when the cab monitor doesn’t work. “How do I see my passengers” was his question.
Anyway, supervisors got the door problem on the M4 ahead of us resolved. It was announced that our train of M3’s would run “express:” to Margaret-Orthrodox. Were we happy? I guess. The M3 train performed flawlessly, the only slow downs were the annoying “red” signals at the entrance of each station (and when did that start).
Everyone in the group had a good day. We took pictures in front of the yard a Bridge Street. I’ll always fondly remember the “Budd cars”.
Jim you said a mouthful. And your a 100% correct. Yes the M-4s are nice. All kinds of bells and whistles which again are great. But lets get down to basics like having the trains stop without overshooting the station. Yeah you have a point were going to miss those old reliable M-3s. They had a sound all there own. And could still zip along with the best of them.
That's what I'm going to miss most about them-the noise.The loudest cars ever and I loved every minute. Especially on the "express" 15th-30th stretch. Going over a switch-even better! A curve-well, now I take issue....
I Dont know why everyone especially the New Yorkers hate the M-3s.They will outperform the M-4s anyday.I think I know why you hate the M-3s. Is it because they can out run anything in NewYork any day. Especially the beloved R10s.
Hey John AKA Budd Man -
I grew up in Philadelphia. I remember when the Budd cars started service on the MKT-FKD Line. The sight of a train coming over the crest of the Pennsylvania Railroad bridge into the Tioga Station was magnificant.
I'll miss the Budd cars as much as anyone.
Jim K.
Chicago
ThanksJim,Its nice to hear someone will miss the M-3.I actually wait for them especally during rush hour when the B- trains fly through Tioga heading to Erie-Torresdale.Anyway all I have to say is Adtranz dosent know how to build things the way the way BUDD did. As a matter of fact my father built the Almond Joys and te R-32s among other things. I think Budd should get more credit down here in Philly more then anywhere. For years the saying ANOTHER DUDD FROM BUDD from common among the Philly railfans especially.
I don't know about New Yorkers, but the majority of people who ride them are far more likely to care about the air conditioning in July than they are about saving a minute or two on their ride downtown.
And Septa will be plenty happy to not have to constantly inspect those traction motor hangars - which really were not too safe a design, it seems.
I Dont know why everyone especially the New Yorkers hate the M-3s.They will outperform the M-4s anyday.I think I know why you hate the M-3s. Is it because they can out run anything in NewYork any day. Especially the beloved R10s.
Hey John AKA Budd Man -
I grew up in Philadelphia. I remember when the Budd cars started service on the MKT-FKD Line. The sight of a train coming over the crest of the Pennsylvania Railroad bridge into the Tioga Station was magnificant.
I'll miss the Budd cars as much as anyone.
Jim K.
Chicago
ThanksJim,Its nice to hear someone will miss the M-3.I actually wait for them especally during rush hour when the B- trains fly through Tioga heading to Erie-Torresdale.Anyway all I have to say is Adtranz dosent know how to build things the way the way BUDD did. As a matter of fact my father built the Almond Joys and te R-32s among other things. I think Budd should get more credit down here in Philly more then anywhere. For years the saying ANOTHER DUDD FROM BUDD from common among the Philly railfans especially.
I don't know about New Yorkers, but the majority of people who ride them are far more likely to care about the air conditioning in July than they are about saving a minute or two on their ride downtown.
And Septa will be plenty happy to not have to constantly inspect those traction motor hangars - which really were not too safe a design, it seems.
Does anyone from the Philly area know what is happening to the Budd Company’s Red Lion Plant? I heard somewhere along the way that it was going to be leveled to make way for another shopping center. Is this true? It will be a sad day when that plant is demolished.
Think of all the railcars that were produced within its facility. This is the company that challenged Pullman’s dominance in the manufacture of sleeping cars. Except for the original Metroliner’s, the CTA 2600 series and the SPV’s of the 1980’s, the Budd Company usually turned out a good product for the money. In Philadelphia, you still are riding Budd built cars. In 1960-61 for the MKT-FKD line and in 1963 the Silverliner II’s built for the Pennsylvania Railroad and the Reading Company.
The reason I'm asking is that I rode on rehabbed CTA 2637-38 from Belmont to Howard. The builder's plate located inside the car stated Built by the Budd Company of Philadelphia abd re-manufactured by GEC-Alstom.
Jim K.
From Chicago
BUDD - A superb rail and subway car. To wit: NYCT's 1964-1965 R32 contract consisted of 600 stainless-steel subway cars, built by Budd. At present, there are 590 of these cars still giving yeoman service on the "A", "C", "E", "N" and "R" lines. Also, the Long Island Railroad put 768 M-1 cars built by Budd into service between 1970 and 1972. About 95% of these are still in service. I think they also built the M-3 cars which came along in the mid-1980s.
Not since the pre-war D-Type cars has the NYCT had a train as rugged as the R32. Some folks are predicting that these cars will reach 50 years of service.
The builders plates on the R32 cars state that they were originally built in 1964 (or 1965) by Budd Co. and were rebuilt in 1988 or 1989 by Morrison-Knudsen Co. (MKCO). The LIRR cars still have their original builders plates, with the blue Budd logo with the red line through it.
Wayne
To address Jim's question, yes, the plant is coming down. Right now, it's abandoned, and a large herd of deer have taken over the grounds. Every so often local news here covers a story which revolves around the large groups of people who come to observe and feed the deer.
No, it won't be a shopping center, though. A new public golf course will occupy the site. Perhaps some of the hazards should include the shells of cars produced at the plant. Since there are plenty of M3's going to the scrapper, maybe a couple could serve this purpose. ?
We have a couple of LIRR Budd M-1s lying about the Holben Yard doing nothing (one with fire damage, the others with various bumps and bruises); and we have three R32 out of service (3559, 3904: fire and undercarriage damage; 3620 - frame problem) as well. Five other R32 have been scrapped (3616, 3629, 3651, (original #)3669, 3766). 3934 and 3935 are parts cars.
Wayne
[To address Jim's question, yes, the plant is coming down. Right now, it's abandoned, and a large herd of deer have taken over the grounds. Every so often local news here covers a story which revolves around the large groups of people who come to observe and feed the deer.]
Let me guess, they are from the "Don't hurt Bambi crowd", as dozens of peoples cars are damaged from collisions with the precious Bambi.
[No, it won't be a shopping center, though. A new public golf course will occupy the site. Perhaps some of the hazards should include the shells of cars produced at the plant. Since there are plenty of M3's going to the scrapper, maybe a couple could serve this purpose. ?]
Since there have been few taker on preserving a big part of Philadelphia history this sounds like a good idea. You don't have to worry about rust. Many Philadelphian's have logged many thousands of miles riding the M3's.
Jim K.
Chicago
It really is a shame the BUDD co is no longer with us. I would have to say that if BUDD built the new M-4 cars for Philly I don't think they would be having half the trouble there having now with Ad-tranz. Same could probably be said for the R 142 order for NYCT.
Well, we haven't given the R142s a chance yet - I prefer Kawasaki to Bombardier as far as manufacturers go, but yes, you are right, it is a shame that Budd is no longer in business serving up virtually indestructible subway and railroad cars. AdTranz - that is the former ANF-Westinghouse/Alsthom, no? They're the ones that built the painfully slow R68 cars for NYC.
Wayne
I protest the remark blaming Westinghouse As---le for building slow cars. Back in the 1960s everything was built to last. My 1968 Fury runs almost as good as the day it was built. Because the R-68s originally went 55 MPH you have to blame the NYCTA. it was Joe Hoffman or another goon in car equippment you have to blame for painfully slow train cars. In today's world the question is how cheap, how soon?
Thanks for the info- I thought the R68 was always that way. I've never been on a single one of them (going back a ways) that ever exceeded (my estimation) 40 MPH, even on express runs. The R68A - I have been on a few "Q" (before they switched to Slants) that did 45 or so, respectable in my book. Were the same mods made to the R68A as was done to the R68?
Wayne
Oh, I suppose you could say the same thing about my 1988 Jeep. It's up to 357,000 miles and it's still rolling along like the R-32s. It's a matter of maintenance and upkeep.
BTW, does your Fury have a 383 or 440? Those 440s were tough.
[I would have to say that if BUDD built the new M-4 cars for Philly I don't think they would be having half the trouble there having now with Ad-tranz.]
I personally don't put the blame entirely on the car builder/vendor. The buyer usually specifies many options that make the cars to complicated. Remember the builder’s plate on the M3 - Designed and Built by the Budd Company.
In order to get a reliable performing transit vehicle, a standard model should be designed (i.e. does anyone remember the PCC car). Off the standard design allowable and workable options could be added.
I go back to the theory; a transit vehicle should move passengers from point A to point B, safely and quickly. The operating agency should employ the cars to put out fast, clean and frequent service on the line.
Fancy bells and whistles not only add to the initial price of the car, but also drives-up the price of maintenance throughout the life of the car. I'll concede that A/C is a MUST, but everything else (i.e. tape-recorded announcements, fancy seats, advanced electronics, etc.) should be off the table. I’ll also concede that today’s public is enamored with unique and showy bells and whistles, thus the buyer feels they must specify them.
Oh, if only the Budd M3 cars had been air-conditioned. But, unless you're old enough to remember, there was also a crisis between the city and the PTC over money and how much should be spent on the cars. These debates were well documented in the "Inquirer" and the late "Bulletin". The PTC didn't have the money for the entire fleet and the City of Philadelphia actually owned 135, or half of the fleet. Air conditioning really became standard just after the M3's were built.
Jim K.
Chicago
BUDD was indeed the best--even the "failures" were good. When I moved west the "real" Metroliners were still running and they were a joy--digital speedometers! You are right however about the bells and etc. The seventies were the era of ordering badly designed stuff which never performed to spec--Boeing-Vertol SLRV's for one. Worse however is the repetition of mistakes in the current order cycle almost everywhere. Item--new BREDAS in SF late overweight oversize(platforms shaved), MTBF in toilet, Norristown line units..., Indeed let's have a subway PCC. Of course that was the announced goal of the Beoing builts it just failed. One also wonders after ordering and receiving a "good" car (R40 for instance) why TA couln't fing a Xerox for the RFP instead of "refining" the designs into the PS disaster?
Perhaps the new R142/R143 could become the new standard. I understand it was designed after meetings with all the other rail agencies in the U.S. True, there have been problems, but that's why you don't buy the first model year of a car. A slow redesign which eliminates bugs over time, with better components retrofit into the older models at rebuild, should lead to a fleet of compatible cars by the time I retire. It's hard to argue against electronic control the way things are going. Anything which increases capacity without compromising safety is a good thing. Anyone want to dump the discounts and go back to the token?
A compatible fleet! Now there is a concept. Since the remaining PCC transit cars have been out of service on the CTA, it has had a fleet of five different classes that have been capable.
Oh, I know that it only operates 1,190 cars vs. over 5,000 on the TA, but they worked towards to goal of having a fleet of operationally capable cars.
Jim K.
Chicago
The problems with the R-142s reported about a month ago in the N.Y. Post sounded more like the problem was in production (and the lack of competent workers) than in the actual design of the cars. Hopefully, the MTA won't accept shipment of the first order until the wiring problems are fixed, and then we'll find out whether or not there are any real flaws in the new cars that were the result of poor design or too many bells and whistles.
You may also recall how many riders were duped into believing that the Budds WERE a/c equipped, even though the only air circulation item they had were the noisy fans. But they did the job, especially in the subway.
I agree with you that it would be good, at least in theory, to standardize a lot of aspects of car design. Unfortunately, there are too many different systems of cars out there. Perhaps the federal transit people should have a long (and I do mean LONG) range goal of standardizing sytems, to allow for more economy of scale. Unfortunately, things are going in the opposite direction, due to the cost of tracks and tunnels. For instance, NJ Transit is thinking of going to bilevels, and they will have to be very specially designed to fit into their tunnels. But it does seem like transit agencies should be able to combine more orders together and such to get more and better cars for the buck.
Keep in mind that
- seats have to be comfortable for people to ride the trains
- those annoying announcements, are, I believe, mandated by ADA
Fancy Electronics: well, most freight RRs are switching to AC motors in their new equipment - which means fancy electronics. But these AC motors are lighter, cheaper, and need less power and maintenence. If its good for the freight RRs, and it appears to be a good investment for them, its good for transit cars.
Why can't they use the same design as the LIRR bilevels? The LIRR, from what I know of it does not have very generous vertical clearances. Although I am not certain of the LIRR bilevel, surely NJ transit can accommodate a car about 15'6" above rail. Any NJ transit and LIRR loading gauge experts out there?
[NYCT's 1964-1965 R32 contract consisted of 600 stainless-steel subway cars, built by Budd. At present, there are 590 of these cars still giving yeoman service on the "A", "C", "E", "N" and "R" lines.]
I may be giving away my age, but I remember when the Budd Company landed that contract. They (Budd and the TA) touted it as the largest single order for stainless steel rapid transit equipment. Budd also landed the CTA order of 'L' cars in 1980. This too was a 600 car (300 pair) order. There are 596 cars left today, however, these cars were NOT one of Budd's best efforts. By the end of the order, Budd had given way to Transit American, and when the last pair of 2600's were shipped to CTA, Budd (TA) wouldn't build another trainst car.
Question. Are the R32's air-conditioned?
Jim K.
Chicago
The R32s were not air-conditioned when first delivered. They ARE air-conditioned now, as a part of their 1988-1989 general overhauls by Morrison-Knudsen Co. This overhaul COMPLETELY changed the way they look inside. If you look at before-and-after photos of these cars you can see the radical change in the interiors. The exteriors (except for the blue doors) are the same as they ever were except for the bulkhead signs, which have been replaced with useless digital ones.
Wayne
Thanks for the answer on the R-32's Wayne.
I'm guessing the first production fleet of A/C rapid transit was the Pullman-Standard CTA 2000 series cars of 1964-65.
After that, I think A/C was pretty much standard for subway equipment.
Jim K.
Chicago
Hudson & Manhattan K/MP-52 class of 1958 (50 cars total) was delivered with A/C from St. Louis Car Co.
-Dave
Ok Dave -
The K/MP52 class takes the honors for A/C.
- Jim K.
Chicago
The TA still had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the air-conditioned car era. The R-38 order only had 10 test cars with AC, and half the R-40/R-40M order also did not include air conditioning.
With the IRT, they pretty much had to put a gun to the head of the MTA to get them to retrofit the R-33/36s in the late 70s, followed by the R-26/28s. The agrument was always that AC units couldn't fit in the smaller IRT cars, and when it was pointed out (as David said) the same-sized PATH cars had been ACed starting in 1958, the MTA would do one of those Ralph Kramden "Humina-Humina-Huminas" and then change the subject.
I suspect that they COULD have found a way to A/C the R30A's and maybe even the R10s, but they found ways to get out of this. It's been said that they couldn't A/C the R30A - they couldn'd do like the R32s, would have had to have been like the IRT cars (with the hot-cold pipes, and vents in place of the axiflow fans) and to do so would have made these cars too heavy.
Wayne
Can you imagine what the R-16s would have weighed had they been retrofitted with A/C? They would have ended up weighing as much as the BMT standards. Everybody out and push!
Yeah, but they couldn't have annouced "everybody out and push" because the loudspeakers didn't work.
I have been reading with great interest the comments that have been posted during the past week concerning car 6688 at Shore Line. The car will be moved into the shop tomorrow, and some cosmetic repair will be done. This was necessitated by the fact that a large air bubble in the paint formed around the middle section of the car, filled with water, and took all paint off underneath.
I have been working on the car in the barn, and this has proved to be interesting. I tried to remove the vent plates on top of the car, and was unsuccessful in doing so. Hopefully, we will be more successful once we move the car into the shop. We need to inspect for corrosion under the covers, and, since we do have spare motors, may look to have the vents working one day. In addition, you can see the original maroon paint in this area.
Paint removal has been a bit more difficult than expected. I tried paint removers on the red sides and silver roof, but the paint seems to be bulletproof, and the removers only put a shine on the paint. A torch seems to work well, and has enabled us to trace the color history of the car layer by layer. At present, there is some vintage graffiti showing - yellow background with some indecipherable lettering.
We hope to accomplish the following:
1) Repaint the entire roof
2) Paint as much of the exterior as time and effort allows.
3) Clean out the drains by the doors.
4) Vacuum out the ceiling (There is still about an inch of steel dust up there).
5) Interior paint touch up.
6) Repair air leak (chief rapid transit maintainer Jeff H. will handle that chore).
Naturally, we can use all the help we can get. If anyone on Sub Talk would like to help, please come and do so. For each day that anyone volunteers, they will get to operate the car for one trip on our line. We will set a date for that activity when the car is done.
We look forward to meeting some of you, and to working with you.
Happy Holidays to all.
I've already pledged myself to this project and Lou has explained the R17 situation really well.... Operate the car for one trip? This is a great incentive!!! It is well worth the undertaking.
Are there any takers out there? Come on, I know you're out there!
Cheers to a cosmetically overhauled R17.
Constantine Steffan
Does'nt any one like R16's? Is 6688 the only SMEE car any one cares about? 6398 really needs the help too! Harrold and I can't do it all alone.
You're right my friend. You can't do it alone. Don't feel bad about you and Harold doing it by yourself. Lou Shavell and I are the only ones working on 6688. People don't show any interest whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned, there's a lot of talk, but people don't accomplish squat. Lou gives these folks here an incentive to operate a SMEE, and do you think people are interested? Hell no! Yet, they want to ride this stuff. Well you can't have it both ways.
If we're lucky, we'll get the work accomplished. But then again, two people are struggling to do some important work to keep the car going.
Let me emphasize, that we at the Shore Line Trolley Museum ARE NOT in competition with Kingston, Seashore, or anyone else for that matter. If anything Eric, you and Harold should give yourselves a pat on the back for attempting to do the work on 6398. If you were more accessible to me, maybe I'd give you a helping hand. Unfortunately, I don't have a car right now. Nevertheless, 6398 is just as important as 6688. Because one thing I know is that each SMEE car has a relevant place in history.....
-Constantine
Thanks for the comraderie guys. Hey Jeff, paintbrushes?
I'm spraying 6398.
Thank You.... I'm embarking on a month long struggle, if not longer.
6398 and 6688....The thought tickles me silly. Let's stop the war and have the cars meet half way between Kingston and Branford. Big brother can help little brother. I DO think that big brother is watching.
-Constantine
the damper motors are inside the false ceiling. Why remove the vent covers?
I think Lou expressed two unconnected thoughts without using
appropriate punctuation to separate them. The exterior grill
panels on the turtleback roof are coming off to inspect and
correct any metal corrosion between the two exterior roof lines.
The interior panels ceiling panels are coming off to inspect
and service the ventilators.
The car is in the shop and paint stripping is underway. Now
that I see it again up close, that old silver and blue stripe
scheme is nice. Hurry up with your paintbrushes before I use
the big fuzzy roller and "restore" the car to that paint scheme :)
How in the world are you going about removing those covers? What are you going to use to reseal them with? They are welded on by years of rust. The damper motors should not be that much work though.
Actually, the covers are just held on by a few screws. Some of
those screws, the ones at the bottom, have rusted in place from
years of moisture accumulation. The screws will be beheaded and
removed. There is no sealing issue as those vents are open anyway.
This is mostly a cosmetic/touchup project. The car is already in
pretty good shape. Lou is spearheading the project. I'm just
using the shop time to perform the annual inspection on the car
and fix up a few minor electrical and pneumatic problems.
Our dampers are stalled in the open position which only hampers our renovation efforts at keeping warm in the winter but since the museum is closed until spring we left the matter alone. Did you seal the emergency side windows with caulk? They seem to cause the majority of rust on R-16 and 17 cars that Ive seen. Because the sashes were made to drop down upon pulling the handles there is no weatherproof gasketing present on the exterior. I also strongly disapprove of the torch on ANY side or end doors as the honeycomb inserts as well as the aluminum skin WILL swell outward significantly.
The following current ENY cars will be reassigned to Coney Island for the duration of the WillyB closure. Keep in mind these cars are needed for the ten 8 car trains on the Bay Pkwy to Chambers St. M; the three 4 car Essex to Broad St. shuttle trains (plus a probable gap train); sufficient spares; and cars needed since CI phase II R32's will be reassigned to Jamaica (with a corresponding number of phase I R32's going to Pitkin for increased A service). All 100 modified R40's (4450 to 4549, substitute R42 4665 for 4461) and 86 CI rebuilt R42 cars: 4864 to 4949. That is a total of 186 cars. What about the 48 R40 slants assigned to ENY? They will probably stay put on the L, but we'll find out for sure in 4 weeks.
I can't wait for the next pick
Back prior to World War II, I believe, plans were made for, and some construction was started on, a subway in Cincinnati, Ohio. Does anyone have any information on that project, why it was never completed, and what has become of the remains?
Also, does anyone know of any other subway systems in the US or Canada where construction was begun but never completed (systems that never got off the drawing board don't count)?
And, how about abandoned systems (other than Rochester, NY's trolley subway - although if anyone has any current photos of its underground remains they would be interesting too)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Back when Electric Lines Magazine was being published, an article was written about the never-completed Cincinatti Subway. From what I remeber, the system was supposed to be a circular route. Heavy rail vehicles were to be bought for the system. From the article, there were photos of stations that were constructed. However, it remained incomplete, no tracks were laid, and the stations remained architecturally unfinished. But the system was partly built, and the entrances to the portals still exist, as was shown in the photos. Part of the system was to be underground, part of it was to be on grade, and I believe that a short elevated section was planned. I know I still have the issue, and I will try to locate the article to provide more info.
Jeff
One of the larger interurban lines in America at the time, the Cincinnati & Lake Erie, had 20 modern, hi-speed cars built in 1930. They were also built with the idea of running into the Cincinnati subway.
Carl M.
Thanks. I have some issues of Electric Lines but not a complete set - I'll check through and see if I have that issue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I found the issue of Electric Lines that has the article "Cincinnati's Sleeping Subway. It's in the March-April 1990 issue.
Thanks, I'll go check my copies tonight and see if I have that one. I'm only missing eight issues, I think, including the first two, so the chances are good I do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Milwaukee had an extensive interurban "Rapid transit network" that was upgraded in the 20's to true rapid transit standards, but they never had the final private entrance into the Public Service Building that was the central terminal. The last segment relied on street running to reach the terminal. A subway entrance to the Public Service Building was started, but the depression and a decision by the Milwaukee Electric Railway and Light Company (TMER&L) to divest it's transit holdings to pursue the more luctative electric power market short circuted it's completion.
As a former resident of Cincinnati, I do know a little about the unfinished subway. It was started in I believe the 1920s but ran out of money. The city was still paying off the debt into the 1960s. I do know that as of March the unfinished sections still stand. There are some tunnels (sort of half-tunnels as they are actually covered areas on the edge of an embankement) the outskirts of downtown that are used by the highway maintainence dept. for storage. There is also a tunnel further out that I'm not quite sure the fate of. As for stations, I know there are a couple of places near downtown where concrete stairways that are filled in exist. There are also concrete railings along the tops of the "tunnels." It's sort of a shame that the system never was completed because with the exception of SORTA's Queen City Metro (Buses). There is no real mass transit. It is way too late in the city's development to attempt a subway although there has been constant talk for years of putting in light rail between downtown and the suburbs and the airport. Although this talk has never got past the "studies" phase.
Mike
planning/construction teens/twenties. money problem--cost overruns/Grt Depression--a fine preview of Second Ave. what's left? not much above grnd--route chosen-originally a canal bed--now I 75 into downtown--Portals to tunnel visible from freeway. Tunnel/stations downtoen actually built--very short distance now used as ROW for giant water main. source an excellent book on Cincinnati trolleys by Richard Wagner. Dave--maybe a capsule in FAQ?
David, do you have the full title, publisher, etc. for that book? I'd like to try and track down a copy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cincinnati Streetcars #7 Progress and Prosperity (and a subway sampling)
Richard M Wagner and Roy J Wright
ISBN 0-914196-27-8
puib TROLLEY TALK
59 Euclid Ave
Wyoming, Ohio 45215
second printing 1990
copywright 1976
good luck finding a copy. this has more than anything else I have seen. minor stuff apeared in Railroad when I was a teen. if anyone else out there knows more please add/correct. When I was in Cincy I enquired of a local who worked for the city who said occasional tours had been supended after someone broke a leg. Quelle surprise!
Thanks, I'll put it on my search list.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Back in the late 40s when the Yonge Street line in Toronto was being built, provision was made below the Queen Street Station for a crosstown underground streetcar route. The station was roughed in with tunnel extending slightly beyond the station itself. As the city expanded in the 1950s and 60s, the decision for a crosstown subway was moved further uptown to run along Bloor Street and Danforth Avenue, shelving any plans for a Queen Street line.
Also, in the early 90s, a major subway expansion plan was announced for Toronto by the provincial government of the day. Construction of a subway line along Eglinton Avenue West was begun, but in the mid-90s after the election of new provincial party, it was cancelled due to money constraints. Work that had been done was sealed off. It remains unknown whether this line (which could have eventually served the airport) will now ever be built.
A few years ago, I took a course on "Metropolitan Development and Urban Planning". Included in the discussion was a comparrison of the NY City Subways vs the LA Electric Lines and how each contributed to the development of the respective city. What was particularly fascinating is how the auto industry targetted the LA system for extinction but really never moved against the NY system.
Do you think the reason that NY was spared was because it was a far more established city post-war with density far greater than that of LA, and that LA could expand in a seemingly endless way, making the car a more viable form of transportation than in the crowded canyons of NY? Besides, ripping up a streetcar line is easier than tearing up a subway.
The density had a lot to do with it. New York would simply be impossible without the subway. LA has about 280,000 working Downtown. NYC has 1,800,000 in Midtown and Downtown Manhattan, plus another 120,000 in Downtown Brooklyn. Downtown Chicago is second at just 515,000.
The reason trolleys were ripped up is because they are only slightly better than a bus for the transit rider, and much worse than a bus for the driver. Subway don't compete with cars for space on the street.
Are there any subway systems anywhere that were abandoned?
Not exactly an abandoned system, but the original Canarsie Line (now the 'L') is an abridged subway/transit line since prior to WWII it ran out to the Canarsie Pier area. The line had a right-of-way from Rockaway Parkway that turned and ran south along E. 95th Street and ended at the present day location of the Belt Parkway.
(The reason trolleys were ripped up is because they are only slightly better than
a bus for the transit rider, and much worse than a bus for the driver.Are there any subway systems anywhere that were abandoned?)
Larry, I beg to differ and yes if you consider elevated sections.
In DC where I was raised many of the trolley lines were in physically separated medians, while sections of others had PROW. As I noted in an earlier post, a major line was undergrounded to alleviate traffic headaches(DuPont Circle) The decision to "dieselize" ironically was an unintended consequence of the historic(last century) decision to force plow pit rather than overhead in the hoidy-toidy downtown areas. This became a disaster with the advent of snow melting salts. The resulting brine both corroded and occasionally shorted out the system.
If you are willing to count the Chicago L as a generic 'subway', then a study of current and past routes in Chicago will show, IMHO, a sad shrinkage of route mileage some of which was 'before' its market time, others just a deteriorating neighborhood being allowed to go to seed. CTA in the 50's was the victim of a fantasy that the public entity 1. could run at a profit, and 2 pay off the ridiculous previous debts of the bankrupt(FAILED CAPITALISTS) Hamstringing a public agency thus, was I think criminal,
"If you are willing to count the Chicago L as a generic 'subway', then a study of current and past routes in Chicago will show, IMHO, a sad shrinkage of route mileage..."
But several miles of new line have been built on the CTA system for evey mile of line lost! What lines were torn down under CTA? The Garfield Park Branch of the old Metropolitan L was replaced by the Congress Branch. The Humboldt Park Branch of the Met was torn down, as was the Stockyards, Normal Park, and Kenwood Branches of the South Side L.
But these were short branches, with the possible exception of the Humboldt Park, and their mileage has been far superseded by the re-opening of the Skokie Swift in the '60s, the Kennedy and Dan Ryan lines in the '70s, the extension of the Kennedy line to O'Hare in the '80s, and the Midway line in the '90s. This does not sound like a "sad shrinkage of route mileage" to me, not by any reckoning!
The well-populated Northwest and Southwest Sides, which were several miles from the nearest L line under the pre-CTA system, are now both served by relatively modern lines. These are both neighborhoods where several thousands of people who used to drive to work because there was no convenient L line now ride the rapid transit to work. In the last 20 years, L service was extended to both major airports. And our most recent major expansion was an entirely new line opened as recent as 1993. Meanwhile, the New Yorkers are complaining, rightfully so, that they have no airport subway service and that no new lines, only minor extensions, have been built for several years.
I trade gladly the loss of a handful of BRANCH lines for the extension of mainline service to quarters of the city that never had service and the operation of trains to both major airports. While the CTA system is certainly not the best it could be, I wouldn't typify the rapid transit system with the phrase "sad shrinkage."
The LA system was largley surface and the cars had to run with the traffic. As traffic increased service on the line decreased. LA was a target but at that time LA was a small town, not the sprawling monster that we know a LA LA land. The efforts to save the city with the new subway system have been hampered by the low density development that was allowed to be built in seach of the "American Dream".
Milwaukee had a nice network that was developing, but it was allowed to be dismantled in favor of freways that are choking the life from the city. (Mayor Norq. is attempting to turn the tide.) Compare that with Cleveland that held onto the rail syetem where hard times were felt but the system is now an important part of the City's new life.
The CTA is an important part of Chicago and with out it at METRA the city would not be experiencing the economic growth that it is today. The CTA has been neglected because the RTA sends too much cash to then burbs but all things considered it is still the life line of the city.
Lincoln Park, Wrigleyville and other neighborhods are making a great reprise and other areas of the city that were declining are now stable and showing the signs of a return to life. The urban lifestyle that are parents ran from looks much better that a 90 minute commute.
I meant(shrinkage...early...) to refer to loss of the outer ends of the Douglas, and the Garfield lines as well as the branches tou cite. While I applaud the Midway line, and the Milw extension to O'Hare, the Dan Ryan line essentially cannibalizes the Jackson Park/Englewood lines. Thus the realignment of "North-South Thru Route Service" to the present pattern. The Normal Park line served a neighborhood very close to the Ryan. It was doomed by the freeway construction. The Humbolt on the other hand, might have been viable--CTA was simply unable to afford the experiment. Part of my sadness is the oportunities for improvement not realized, not a criticism of the strides made. If the Kenwood neighborhood itself had not been abandonned by the powers that be... My great uncle who lived almost his entire life on Greenwood Ave near 47th St, would have to phone down to the local black cab co. to get a ride home from the loop, because the majors had de facto redlined his area.
RE: Washington DC trolley conversions:
[The decision to "dieselize" ironically was an unintended consequence of the historic (last century) decision to force plow pit rather than overhead in the hoidy-toidy downtown areas. This became a disaster with the advent of snow melting salts. The resulting brine both corroded and occasionally shorted out the system.]
In every article I've read about conversion of the DC our US Congress MANDATED conversion of the streetcar system, which by the way was reputed to be on the best in the country. At the time, Congress oversaw the operations of the system, a unique idea, but then it is Washington, DC. Anyway, Congress was so enraged by fact that management wanted the promise of a fare increase in order to negotiate with the striking carmen's union. This story is well documented in LeRoy O. King’s book "100 Years of Capital Traction”, Taylor Publishing, 1972.
Although I'll concede that the plow pit was also a source of irritation, it didn't ultimately bring about the conversion of this large system of streetcars to buses.
Jim K.
Chicago
While you are legalisticly correct; the franchise to operate was from Congress, the corrosion/brine problem was real and contributed to the Congressional mandate for change. As a child growing up in DC I well remember a picture of a string of trolleys on Florida Ave one winter evening--sitting "dead in the water"--This was on the front page of the Evening Star. It had been a splendid system with the first ever A/C PCC the Silver Sightseer, good service, much PROW, clean cars.
David, you refer to DuPont Circle as having had the trolleys put underground. I rode the DC system (or what was left of it) as a child but was too young to remember that specifically. Are there any good photos or more history of that location out on the web? And, does that location survive as an underground anything?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Doesn't LA have some abandoned old subway station, somewhere near Union Station? Or was that apart of the streetcar lines? It would be nice to see this integrated into the new rail system.
(Tunnels as part of the trolley system). I think most abandoned tunnels were part of surface systems a la Newark. If the tunnels are still usable, and traffic on the street is light enough, perhaps those cities should consider going back to trolleys. I think Newark would benefit from an expanded system.
Newark is already expanding their trolley line to Bloomfield. But I doubt if the PCCs will see service there - MUNI of SF and others are awaiting their withdrawal. Long Island is another place where something like trolley service is needed. There are just too many damned cars here and north-south rapid transit is just about non-existent. The Route 110 corridor would be great place to put a trolleyway, along with a reopening of the Republic LIRR station to tie into it.
Wayne
[re light rail on Long Island]
A light rail line along the Route 110 corridor sounds nice but probably wouldn't work. It's hard to figure out who would use it even with the Republic station reopened. Reverse commuters from the city might seem like a natural user base, but the LIRR's two-track mainline prevents much if any expansion of reverse-peak service. Commuters from farther out in Suffolk would run into the lack of parking capacity at the Ronkonkoma line stations.
The rumor mill is churning quite a bit about the eventual fate of the Newark PCCs. I've been told a number of conflicting stories about what is going on, all from sources I consider reliable, so I'm not sure what to believe. Does anyone know the real truth?
Here are the various stories that I have heard:
1. A contract has been signed with SF Muni for the sale of all remaining PCCs, including the work motors and all spare parts. Delivery will be made as soon as possible after the conversion to the new cars.
2. SF Muni is interested but no contract has been signed yet. They will probably purchase 14 of the cars under this scenario, plus a portion of the spare parts. Two cars will be preserved, at different locations within the state. Two additional cars will be used as work motors, while the remaining two (already partially cannibalized) will be stripped and scrapped.
3. New Orleans wants the cars for their underbody components to use in building new "old-style" cars for their expanding operation, and the parts to make the SEPTA hulks they purchased for the same purpose usable. Stripping and scrapping of the bodies will occur in New Jersey with only the trucks and other parts that New Orleans wants to be shipped (unlike with the SEPTA cars, which were shipped intact and stripped down south).
4. GOMACO (a builder of replica cars) wants the cars for the same reason as New Orleans, same scenario. They aren't after the parts inventory, however, since they sell cars rather than operate them.
Does anyone know which, if any, of the above scenarios represents the real truth?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't have it the magazine with me but there is an Article in RailPace(?) this month about Newark Subway. All PCC's are being modified from trolley pole to standard Amtrak style pickup (loss for the word). The article hinted some of the PCC's might be kept on the property for backup. I'll paraphrase it and post it tommorrow or tonight if I can get my home PC back up (monitor blown).
Thanks. A friend here subscribes, so I'll try and check his copy over the weekend as well. I had heard they were changing the poles to pans on six or eight of the cars since that will be required for operation under the catenary that will soon be installed. I didn't think they would do it for all of them, however.
If they change them all to pantographs perhaps the folks in Pittsburgh will bid for them as well. Imagine - competition!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe we could get GOMACO to build us some R10s and AB Types and maybe even a few new R16s too! :o) Just Dreaming
Wayne
The old Pacific Electric system had a short downtown tunnel. It is no longer useable as the foundations and basements of buildings build after PE was abandoned encroach upon its Right of way.
New York wasn't really spared by the rubber-tired/asphalt crowd. There hasn't been one new line built after WWII; everything "new" has been an extension or connection. Even Rockaway was just a rebuilding. And building the new Queens tunnel on 63rd Street instead of 76th Street avoided a new line on 2nd Avenue and allowed for simply connecting into the existing line on Queens Boulevard.
Other examples--the Robert Moses narrowing of the median strip on the Van Wyck Expressway (preventing its use for the transit route the Board of Transportation planned for after WWII), the refusal (Moses, also) to allow the World's Fair IND line to be reopened for 1964-65, no rails on the Narrows Bridge, and no extension of the Astoria Line to LGA (also a B of T plan). And the one-way avenues in Manhattan and Brooklyn are a major capitulation to the rubber-tire people--forcing bus riders to walk long, long blocks to get a bus going in the opposite direction--why shouldn't there be a bus lane in the opposite direction at curbs on the one-way avenues?
And we shouldn't forget the TA's elimination of express services at night and weekends (including the expresses to the beaches), the result of which is to force people to drive if they want to get anywhere in a reasonable time.
Fortunately, New York had enough infrastructure in place so that total destruction couldn't be done, though lots of damage was done anyway, with unnecessary elimination of elevated rail routes but construction of elevated highways in the name of "progress." (Look at Third Avenue in Brooklyn now compared with when the el was there--sunlight, anyone?)
We could say that there wasn't quite as much damage to New York as to places like Los Angeles, but there sure has been a lot of permanent damage done to the City, both structurally and demographically, that will never be undone--just look at what the Cross-Bronx Expressway did to The Bronx.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Let us not forget-- since the 1960s NYC has lost much of the system. We have lost:
Culver Shuttle Brooklyn
Third Ave El- Bronx
Myrtle Ave el- Jay Street to Broadway/Myrtle
Jamaica el from geographic East of 121 to 168.(only partially replaced by new subway but not on Jamaica Avenue.)
If not for the neighborhood we'd have added Franklin SHuttle to this list.
True we gained some minor additions; Grand Street, 57/6th, 63rd street and Lex, Roosevelt Island, Queens Bridge, three stations on the J but in all the losses exceeded the gains.
(Losses and gains). Since 1940 the city has had an essentially stable population, so what it really needs are upgrades. But those have not happened. And, since 1970, they haven't happened on the roads, parks, etc. either. Then there is the matter of the coal burning schools.
[We could say that there wasn't quite as much damage to New York as to places like Los Angeles, but there sure has been a lot of permanent damage done to the City, both structurally and demographically, that will never be undone--just look at what the Cross-Bronx Expressway did to The Bronx.]
At the risk of bringing up one of these never-settled controversies, I am compelled to point out that the adverse effects of the Cross-Bronx Expressway may have been much exaggerated. It's plainly obvious to any motorist that the Expressway's right-of-way is much narrower than just about any other limited-access highway. As a result, the Expressway's construction really did not eviscerate neighborhoods, as has often been claimed, but merely eliminated a corridor only a few buildings wide. This is not to say that there weren't any bad effects, but it's assuming way too much to assume that the Expressway was the ruination of the adjoining neighborhoods. One thing that should always be kept in mind is that neighborhood decline is a complex process, generally attributable to many causes. Highway construction most often is just one of these.
(Cross Bronx Expressway and Bronx decline). In the drug industry, they require a "double blind" study with extensive controls. Not so in social science. Hence, Caro "proved" that the Cross Bronx Expressway caused the decline of East Tremont, without asking why the Prospect didn't devastate Windsor Terrace and why the failure to build an expressway through Bushwick as planned didn't prevent its decline. Same problem as the el's and property values.
When in comes to public policy, no one but no one wants facts to even be collected, since they can't be controlled.
I beg to differ, but the Cross Bronx was a major factor in the decline of the entire area from University Avenue east to the Bronx River. Stable working class neighborhoods were destroyed by a highway that was literally blasted through without regard to its consequences. Displaced tenants were given meager assistance locating new homes. Many neighborhood mom and pop stores were wiped out.
While it's true the Robert Caro's now-famous chapter about East Tremont is the best documented example of the Cross Bronx devastation, I can cite a personal anecdote. My wife grew up at Walton Ave. and 174th St. For a number of years the Cross Bronx construction upset the entire neighborhood due to pedestrian detours and worst of all, constant blasting. At that location, the highway dives under the Concourse and the 174/175 Sts. D train station, as well as the nearby #4 elevated line along Jerome Avenue. My wife's building was spared, but buildings immediately adjacent were razed for the new road.
[I beg to differ, but the Cross Bronx was a major factor in the decline of the entire area from University Avenue east to the Bronx River. Stable working class neighborhoods were destroyed by a highway that was literally blasted through without regard to its consequences. Displaced tenants were given meager assistance locating new homes. Many neighborhood mom and pop stores were wiped out.]
I'm not saying that the construction of the Cross Bronx Expressway didn't cause severe disruption in the affected areas, only that it was not the sole cause of neighborhood decline as Caro seems to imply. It may well be that the area you describe would have remained stable and respectable if the Expressway were not built. Yet it's also entirely possible that it would have declined anyway - as happened with many (highway-less) city neighborhoods. Neighborhood growth and decline is a complex process with many interacting factors. Simple, Caro-esque explanations may sound convincing but seldom are the full story.
Caro's excuse for blaming the decline on East Tremont on the expressway -- despite the fact that neighborhoods to the south had previously experienced increasing poverty and decline -- was the fact that the neighborhood "held out" against flight. But the fact is that most young people from that area were moving to the suburbs, and most of those moving in had lower incomes, before the road. Perhaps many elderly people stayed on, than left due to the disruption of the highway. It might have made a few year's difference, but not much.
Caro's book was published in 1973. Afterward, Coop City opened and scores of older middle-income households relocated from the West Bronx, including areas far from any highway. With both the young and old moving away, most of those who moved in along the Grand Concourse were poorer than those who left. Average incomes in University Heights feel as NYU fled the area, which is not near any highway, some time after the highways were built. No doubt Caro would have also ignored they fact, as they contradicted his central argument.
The central problem is that middle income people have decided they wanted to buy houses, with Manhattan alone able to overcome that preference. That's why people with higher incomes are once again occupying rowhouse areas of Brooklyn, but not the mid-rise apartment buildings of the Bronx -- even though one could argue that the grand Bronx apartment buildings provide objectively better housing, and the Bronx has more parkland and recreational amenities.
[The central problem (with neighborhood decline) is that middle income people have decided they wanted to buy houses, with Manhattan alone able to overcome that preference. That's why people with higher incomes are once again occupying rowhouse areas of Brooklyn, but not the mid-rise apartment buildings of the Bronx -- even though one could argue that the grand Bronx apartment buildings provide objectively better housing, and the Bronx has more parkland and recreational amenities.]
No surprise there. Regardless of one's dedication to city living, the federal income tax deduction for mortgage interest is a mighty powerful incentive for homeownership. And that deduction has the proverbial snowball's chance of being eliminated anytime soon.
Yet all might not be bleak for the Bronx. At least according to news reports, a considerable number of single-family houses and duplexes are being built in formerly ravaged neighborhoods. Given its excellent transit connections to Manhattan, the Bronx might yet have a hopeful future as the new "borough of homes." Time will tell, I guess.
I think that single/two-family homes do have a future in the Bronx, and the excellent transit connections are a part of the reason why. Urban growth and decay is cyclical, back to ancient times - each successive occupant of a dwelling, on average, is poorer than the previous one, until such time as the dwelling is either razed or renovated and the cycle starts again. Neighborhoods, naturally, follow the same flow. The deciding (albeit not the only) factor in total rebirth is the quality of the infrastructure, and in modern-day urban America transit is a key part of that. Construction of the Second Avenue line would be a catalyst that could move the process in the Bronx along faster but it isn't an absolute necessity for rebirth there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"... the federal income tax deduction for mortgage interest is a mighty powerful incentive for homeownership."
But a condominium is also a "home" for purposes of a home mortgage interest deduction, and many condos sell for a price (and thus an equal interest deduction) commensurate with detached houses in the suburbs. Even if one can't afford a condo unit on Manhattan, surely there are condos, or buildings ripe to "go condo," in the outer boroughs and convenient to subway or commuter lines into Manhattan.
A loft in an old warehouse, with lots of space (at least by New York standards) and modern electricity and communications (so one can hook their computer into the Internet more easily), a decent neighborhood, and easy walking to a frequently-running train should sell well, no?
["... the federal income tax deduction for mortgage interest is a mighty powerful incentive for homeownership."
But a condominium is also a "home" for purposes of a home mortgage interest deduction, and many condos sell for a price (and thus an equal interest deduction) commensurate with detached houses in the suburbs. Even if one can't afford a condo unit on Manhattan, surely there are condos, or buildings ripe to "go condo," in the outer boroughs and convenient to subway or commuter lines into Manhattan.]
That's most definitely true. In fact, condominiums and cooperatives are the main form of "home" ownership in NYC. Some are found in the outer boroughs and often sell for high prices. The main problem from a neighborhood-health perspective, as noted in this thread, is that many areas in the Bronx and elsewhere are filled with rental apartment buildings that have become less and less desirable as homeownership rates increase. As a result, these areas become poorer and more run down.
Conversion of rental buildings may not be a workable solution. Aside from the fact that the poor have to be housed *somewhere*, I believe that NYS and NYC laws make conversions very difficult if not downright impossible. Larry probably would know more about that.
(NYC laws make conversions difficult).
Its not only the mortgage deduction that makes 60 unit outer borough apartment buildings unattractive. Its also unit size. Most of these buildings have one- and two-bedrooms, but most families want three plus. That's one reason why NYC attracts many college-educated people from all over the world, but many move out when they have kids. Some move back in when the kids are gone. And all want to be as close to Manhattan as possible.
Rent stabilization is a barrier to combining units, since you can't evict anyone and you have to wait until people leave to renovate. It is unlikely that you'll have the luck to get two together. Moreover, were it not for rent stabilization you could empty a building, renovate it, and sell it. As it is, you have to sell units as they become vacant, but lenders are reluctant to finance ownership units in primarily rental buildings after what happened in the 1980s.
BTW a recent report found that the average two-bedroom coop in Manhattan sold for $400,000, while the average three-bedroom sold for $800,000. That's a lot of money for one bedroom.
One more thing. A couple can buy and renovate a brownstone, but to renovate a mid-rise you need a professional owner with capital. Rent stabilization has created an ownership class in NYC which profits by cash cowing the buildings until they die (since there is no incentive to renovate for higher rents), not a prescription for renewal.
[Its not only the mortgage deduction that makes 60 unit outer borough apartment buildings unattractive. Its also unit size. Most of these buildings have one- and two-bedrooms, but most families want three plus. That's one reason why NYC attracts many college-educated people from all over the world, but many move out when they have kids. Some move back in when the kids are gone. And all want to be as close to Manhattan as possible.]
Transit might figure into the city's (relative) unattractiveness to families with children. I can imagine that it might be difficult to shepherd small children onto subways and buses. So much easier just to pop them into the car seat.
(Easier to put children in the car). It depends on the children. My kids love the buses and trains, because they aren't strapped in and they can see out the window. They hate the car. Transit is an adventure. The car is like a straightjacket.
And the one-way avenues in Manhattan and Brooklyn are a major capitulation to the rubber-tire people--forcing bus riders to walk long, long blocks to get a bus going in the opposite direction--why shouldn't there be a bus lane in the opposite direction at curbs on the one-way avenues?
I thought the one-way avenues were a direct result of the 1968 transit strike?
--Mark
The trend toward one-way streets started a long time ago, but lately has begun to reverse. Here is my candidate: Prospect Park West and 8th Avenue. Having a second lane on 8th Avenue just encourages people to double-park, so you only get one moving lane anyway and it keeps shifting from one side of the street to another. You don't dare double park if it will immediately stop traffic. Meanwhile, the B75 and B69 are screwed up by the lack of two-way traffic on PPW. You always have to wait for a light or two on Union St.
Just to answer your question - Manhattan's one way avenues were introduced between 1948 and 1966. The last pair, Fifth and Madison Avenues, were converted in Jan. 1966 at the conclusion of the transit strike. There was no transit strike in 1968.
The first one way pair, 9th and 10th Avenues, were introduced in 1948. The idea spread to virtually every other major north/south avenue. After 1966, the only remaining two way avenues below 125th Street on the east side were Park and York Avenues; on the west side below 59th Street, only Eleventh and Twelfth Avenues remain two way (and 11th is one way south below 42d Street).
In Brooklyn, a number of the major north/south avenues (Nostrand, Bedford, New York, Brooklyn, Tompkins, Sumner, etc.) were converted in the mid-1960's.
There is a two-way section of Third Avenue below 23rd Street.
Another issue not raised is the forced abandonment of streetcars initiated by Mayor LaGuardia. Although the Third Av., Queensboro Bridge and Brooklyn & Queens systems survived into the 1950s, they were forced to abandon prematurely in some cases by the city's refusal to renew franchises. Compare this to Boston, Philadelphia, Pittsburg, New Orleans and San Francisco, where despite the pressure to abandon from rubber tire connected management and other sources, key lines survived and prosper today, and some are now growing again.
Milwaukke also had an aborted subway plan and preliminary construction. See the TM book for details.
The "TM" book? Details please.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The TM book is the CERA bulletin #112 (book) dealing exclusively with
The Milwaukee Electric street car and interurban lines.
The book is a scarce item. I do not know how many copies were printed.
It was published in 1972. A copy may show up a used book store or train shows or search the web.
The T in TM is the definite artice THE.
The M is for Milwaukee
Thanks, I'll look for a copy at Pennsauken on 1 May.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Having just completed my thesis on rapid transit expansions in the Montreal area I uncovered a ton of plans for expansions to this city's rapid transit system including ones that had extensive engineering studies preformed and even companies pitching complete systems. But this is Montreal where we plan big and don't always seemt to be able to follow up.
The system that was closest to being built but never was is Line 3. The city's subway contains four lines presently which have recently been renamed for their colours and the line numbering system dropped. The numbering system was funny because for the longest time the city had Metro lines 1,2,4, and 5. The missing line three was planned for a tunnel that goes beneath Mont Royal and was used for commuter rail. Plans called for a line that would use the tunnel and then the rail right-of-way. Interestingly it would have been the only line to run above ground and would use steel-wheel-on-steel-rail instead of the Montreal standard of rubber tires. The owner of the right-of-way Canadian National decided not to sell and the line was never built despite plans, engineering studies. Just recently the line which is Canada's only electric commuter railway was upgraded and completly rebuilt for the first time since openning. Infact until 1996 the line ran 1925 rolling stock!
As for an abandoned system Montreal abandoned a heavy rail rapid transit that used rolling stock that was very similar to Toronto's subway. The line was called the Expo Express and served the 1967 world's fair. The line used conventional subway rolling stock at grade and served the islands upon which the fair was held and connected them to the island. This line was one of two heavy rail lines built for the fair the other was the Metro line 4 (now yellow). The system was abandoned and cars sold after the world's fair. But over the last two decades an rt system has been called for to serve the islands again! Where a casino and amusement park is located. All these system followed a path that mirrored this system's earily close.
Does anything remain of this system or not? Also, who bought the cars?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The right of way and bridges remain but are trackless and if you didn't know where it ran it would be close to impossible to see the line. Since the right of way remains most proposals for new rt systems use a similar route.
Thanks for the update. I probably rode the line back in '67 but as I hadn't developed a full-blown case of transititis at that point (railfanitis was becoming severe, it just hadn't mutated yet) I can't say for sure. I did ride the rubber-tired line for sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I vivdly remember riding on the Expo Express in 1967, when Expo '67 was open, and subsequently in 1968 and 1971, by which time it was known as Man and His World, Expo's original theme. In '67, it ran all the way to the waterfront, but by 1968 had been cut back to the westernmost island of the original fair. The station dwell times were quite long, probably several minutes, but you got a nice railfan's view out the front window.
Expo Express - now I do remember that name, so I'm sure that I must have ridden it. Thanks for the memories!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What a great idea to have chewing gum contests in the subway. How much can you chew and stick to subway cars? Can take the place of Graffitti and Scatchetti. The chewing gum make good adhesive like glue and can used to hold parts together.
WHAT DO YOU YOU GUYS THINK OF THAT????
[What a great idea to have chewing gum contests in the subway. How much can you chew and stick to subway cars? Can take the place of Graffitti and Scatchetti. The chewing gum make good adhesive like glue and can used to hold parts together.]
I believe there already have been crewing gum contests on the subway ... or at least it sure looks that way!
The most gum-encrusted places in the subway that I've ever seen are:
1) Times Square station walkways between the "S" and IRT
2) The passageway between Atlantic Avenue IRT/BMT and Pacific Street BMT is entire chrusted over with gum - abstitively FILTHY!
Wayne
The ghost of William Ronan (who ordered the chewing gum and candy vending machines out of the subway) is going to be after you, bud.
Fortunately, if he's after you on any of the 1970s-era maintained subway cars he was responsible for, they'll break down first and you'll be safe.
I posted this same question on the Bus Talk side. Would anyboday know if the TA is planning to publish a 99 Subway Guide as they did for 98?
Mike: I made a mis-statement when I described the J-A platform. The platform extended east from the tunne onto an embankment and then accross Jerome Av on a concrete viaduct type el structure. The Jerome Av entrance was on the east side of Jerome Av leading up to the platform. This has been removed as has the sructure over Jerome Av. What remains is the platform section on the embankment and whatever length of platform is in the tunnel.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I returned from my week in London and here are a few of my thoughts regarding the underground:
1)Neat, very clean system and quite easy to figure out and use. Reminded me of the Boston subway (though much larger of course). The trains are also considerably deeper than the NYC subway...requiring several deep escalators to descend.
2)Interesting rolling stock, especially the newer equip. on the central and picadilly lines and some of the new stock on the circle and northern lines. They look almost like giant toys....multicolored..Red faces, grey or red doors with white bodies....and inside with blue, red and yellow bars rather than stainless.
3)I like the LED signs in each station that estimate the time remaining for the next train, and its terminus.
4)The really old rolling stock on the northern line had plenty of graffiti (surprised me), and many lines had scratchitti on the windows.
5)Being a tall fellow, I found the steep inward curvature of the the tube stock to be aggrevating during rush hours as my body would fit into the car but my head would not! No such problem of course on the surface stock :)
More to follow
Michael
Do the Circle and Picadilly Lines have new stock? When I was there about a year ago, the Jubillee and Northern Lines were getting new stock, but I wasn't aware that any new trains were due on the Circle or Picadilly Lines.
The rolling stock on the Piccadilly ,Circle ,Hammersmith and City lines has been refurbished.(The Piccadilly uses 1973 stock and the other linesC69 and C77 stock).The principle changes have been the move to all longitudinal seating (a la IRT) and the use of anti graffiti paint(These trains were previously unpainted.)
All London Uunderground lines now have refurbished stock in what is known as "corporate colours" which is red front ,red doors, blue skirt the remaining bodywork being white(except roof).
The only odd ones out are:
Waterloo and City Line, 1992 stock in former Network South EastLivery
.
6 car C69/C77 set painted in allover wrap advert livery
(cars 5537/5555/5593 with paired trailers)
.
District Line (D78 Stock) not refurbished or painted and remains in
as built condition .
.
The 1956/62 stock on the Northern Line remains to date the last reminder of the old London Transport empire with graffiti scarred
unpainted stock, NEW 1995 stock is due to end this however by the yaer end.
One 4 car set of 1962 stock has been made into a "works" set and cars
DM 1680, Trailer 2860 ,Ndm 9125, DM 1681
are kept in quite good condition by the Northern Line Engineering section and this unit is used during the night to transfer materials and stores to tunnel section stations and also to some open section stations.
Regards
Rob London UK :^)
Question: Is there any of the 1938 tube stock remaining operational either as work equipment or in museums?
This was the trend-setting equipment for these lines and a very significant design.
you can still find 1938 stock operating (albeit in refurbished form) on the Isle Of Wight line, down off of the South coast of England.
Other than 20 cars transfered during 1989 to the "Island Line" on the Isle Of Wight (only 12 cars remaining in use sadly), London Underground has the following 1938 stock in use:
4 car set 10012 012256 12048 11012
status: being overhauled for display in new LT Museum Annex
:
L150 & L151 converted to weed killing "spray train"
L150^ old No 10327 and 90327
L151^ OLD NO 11327 and 91327
:
The London Transport Museum has car 11182 as static display.
:
Regards
Rob London UK :^)
Had an interesting Friday with that great weather: I hiked along the Bay Ridge LIRR branch ROW in the eastern section of Brooklyn. Not much to see, but it was a peaceful (and quiet) excursion through the barely used freight line. There was much more trackage (spurs) along the route from the line's active years than I had expected to see.
I started my excursion at the Glenwood Road overpass near Utica Ave. There is no fencing at this point, and a natural path to the embankment is present. Since I did not start my trip in the a.m. I knew that I wouldn't be able to cover the entire route through Brooklyn. From what I knew of the line -- from my Brooklyn youth and from other railfans -- was that the more interesting sites would be in the eastern corridor. So, I trekked out eastward up to the back of the Linden shops where I spied one of the Continuous Rail trains of former R-22 type cars (photos to come). I even got a shot of an L train of R-40Ms at the East New York station with the former Bay Ridge/Canarsie switchover trackage in the foreground!
I thought I'd run into many homeless encampments, but only saw two (one was w/o any visible occupant). I had no fear from any vagrants that I might run into, as they want to keep to themselves and probably don't want to cause a 'scene' that would bring attention to their 'lifestyle'. The one hairy situation was my encounter with two stray, mangy dogs along the route -- one growled and appeared quite threatening. I picked up a tree branch, raised it in a threatening manner and the dog took off.
BTW, I will get into the details of actual track layouts by the end of the week, as my photos from the trip will be back by then.
More later. Doug aka BMTman
When I worked for NY&A I used to travel that way about twice a week. There was one time when a stray dog was running in front of the engine and just would not get out of the way! We tried yelling and blowing the horn and even stoping the train. To no avail, this pooch wanted to run himself into a heart attack. Eventually he ran off to the side near where the sea beach line paralells the bay ridge.
But wouldn't you know he was there when we came back east!
thank god he didn't run infront of us again, our bosses didn't want to hear we took two hours to make a one hour trip because of dog.
Hey, Doug, didn't it feel like mountain climbing over all that trash? I used to ride on the pilot of the engine at 5MPH to keep a look out for debris that could derail us. Also to make sure the rail was actually there! I was told of several instances where it had been stolen!
Erik, thanks for that dog story! Maybe the mutt was just a railfan trying to hitch a ride with you guys... ;)
Incidentaly, I really didn't see any mounds of trash on the roadbed. Remember that I spent my trip on the embankment (more E. NY area) of the line, so much of the garbage was off down the sides of the embankment and not on the tracks. The furthest west I went was between the Albany Ave. and Brooklyn Ave. overpasses. Now as you approach Albany the route dips and becomes an open cut (or viaduct) and there is a more natural -- and un-natural -- accumulation of debris. Some of it was the remains of homeless shelters, but I suspect that the bulk is from carting companies saving some $$$ by doing illegal dumping.
Didn't see any missing rails. That is so bizarre to be aboard a freight train and come across a section of missing trackage! I can almost picture a couple of street punks on Flatbush Ave. hauking their stolen goods: 'Yo! We got some high-grade track over here! Come on and check out these rails! Best track you'll find anywhere!' ;)
Anyhow, when did you work for the NY&A? And do they do the hauling for those scrap metal outfits in E. New York? BTW, at one of the scrap yards I encountered tracks on the embankment that were imbedded in a concrete flooring with what looked like trap doors underneath. I guess the doors open up under a hopper car and the business gets a delivery of coal, sand or something?
cya round, Doug aka BMTman
I was in the original class of 24 Engineers at NY&A Rwy. back in the spring of 1997. Only 9 of us passed the tough LIRR rules exam. The rest were let go. I left at the end of the year to come to the Transit Authority, and although I really do miss the place, the Subway is home.
The device you saw was Brooklyn Resources' car scale. They out ship scrap metal in gondolas owned by Cross Harbor RR.
It's very sensitive, and engines are not allowed on it, and neither are the car's brakes. Placing cars on the scale, an engineer would only use the independent brake valve.
Very few of NY&A's customers ship out. Most only recieve, then return an empty car. Those few that do ship, only ship garbage, like scrap metal, recycled papers, and the like. In the summer going down the Bushwick Branch could be a rather smelly proposition!
I still have an open invitation from the NYCH to tour the railroad. I intend to take them up on it sometime this spring.
-Hank
If you keep going on the tracks, a couple of older LIRR passenger cars (2700's) are stored on the Myrtle Av. overpass on weekends.
NYCH trackage rights end at what we called "interchange yard" Thats over by where the Sea Beach line exits the subway portal. The rest of the Bay Ridge secondary is LIRR/NY&A. Being a single track line with no signalling and the nearest passing siding all the way by the TA's Linden Yard, it's easy to why use of the line is tightly conrolled.
This morning I saw a short NY&A train going east over the shared LIRR/NYCT embankment next to the New Lots Ave. L station. I was aboard a northbound R-40M approcahing from E. 105th Street. This was at about 8:30 am. The diesel looked like one of those EMD units and had a nice green paint job with white striping (similar to the old Bush Terminal color scheme). I thought most of NY&A's locos were LIRR hand-me-downs? Is it true that NY&A is a subsidiary of the Long Island Railroad? I had the impression it was a privately run railroad.
To Hank: any chance NYCH could take on a straggler or two on your proposed trip???
[Is it true that NY&A is a subsidiary of the Long Island Railroad? I had the impression it was a privately run railroad.]
The NY&A was the LIRR's freight arm, but it was spun off into private ownership a couple of years ago. I don't know if the MTA still has any ownership stake.
No, the LIRR ran it's own freight operation, and it is franchised to the NY&A, so that the LIRR doesn't have to run freight trains itself. NY&A owns the locos, LIRR owns everything else. Basically, NY&A has trackage rights on the LIRR.
-Hank
NY&A a railroad with out its own tracks!! I think LIRR sold some Locos to them and they might have repainted them. Not sure, I'm sure there is a site out there with the LIRR loco roster.
The May issue of "Trains" magazine has an excellent article on NY&A that includes a loco roster.
As a former Engineer of the NY&A Rwy. I can set you guys straight on the facts.
NY&A has a lease on the locomotives it operates, which were former LIRR engines. The GP10 that is used as a second unit is the only one they actually own. It cannot serve as the leading engine any where east of Fresh Pond because it has no cab signal equipment. To tell you the truth, it was a crappy engine any way. The visibility is poor and it has no traction. Smaller less powerful engines rotinely out pulled it.
There are trackage rights to operate freight trains any where the LIRR used to. There are also penalties if any passenger trains are delayed due to an NY&A train.
Bay Ridge and Bushwick, Yard A (Sunnyside) and Fresh Pond and a few other locations are leased to NY&A. They have full authority over who uses them and how. This comes also with the stipulation that they be maintained by NY&A. You may have noticed that some track repair and cleaning has gone on at those locations. Something LIRR never did.
>>Bay Ridge and Bushwick, Yard A (Sunnyside) and Fresh Pond and a few other locations are leased to NY&A<<
So let me follow this, the just departed Cirus Train which laid up at the LIRR frieght yard, "rented" the space from LIRR or NY&A?? When NY&A moved them to the Conrail interchange (or did Conrail come in and pick them up) I assume it was a frieght move and they paid NY&A.
At DIVIDE Twr, on the weeknd with a Huntington train, we've been held letting the NY&A frieght clear the interlocking (into the thrid track). I wonder how the fine is or how much time has to pass.
One of the things currently holding up that new Light Rail line in NJ is the FRA and freight/Pax operations. Unlike in Baltimore, they are going to need to run freight operation during the day, just too much traffic for late night only. FRA is concerned the light rail traffic and mixxing it with the heavy freight.
That partcular train has special handling requirements and qlthough last year NY&A handled it this year it was a long Island move.
NY&A leases the properties, but LIRR still owns them, and when they want to use them , they must notify NY&A but NY&A cannot tell them no.
What happened at Divide was not a finable offense because the freight was operating normal it sounds like. The Block Operator at Divide has the final say and if your train had to wait, well then he should have held the freight.
Now if the freight had some sort of problem causing the delay, then thats different.
Thanks Erik,
Now the big question, did the elephants have to pay $3.50 each to walk through the Queens/Midtown tunnel?? >G<
No, but they had to pay OT rates for the Sanitation guys that brought up the rear with the shovels :o|
FYI, They had a large & very nice St. Pat's parade in Rockville Centre this year & the local Sanitation guys that followed the horses got a hand from the crowd, they were smiling for two reasons.
Mr t__:^)
They paid the same rate as the taxis. Naturally there was a surcharge for the trunks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't know what to financial arrangement for moving the elphants through the tunnel, but the circus employs their own 'tender' :)
-Hank
Well since they could be considered a commercial vehicle I'd say that the TBTA charged the elephants $4.00 per leg. Anyone know if the elephants had EZ Pass?
7:25 pm Saturday, 3 April 1999.
47-50th Street/6th Avenue IND Station.
Looking for a downtown express train to go to W. 4th Street.
IT'S A Slant-40
We roared downtown, with a max on the EDO Speedo of 50 between 34th and W. 4th.
.
A rare event for a weekend! One of life's little pleasures.
Why was the B running express? Or has that changed too since I last was in NYC?
The is express on 6th Avenue. For the past year or so, the line has been assinged R-68s with no "rail fan" window. So having a Slant-40 to make that wonderful express "downhill" run on the weekend, when the isn't running, is a treat!
A few Slant R40 have been spotted on the , especially on weekends. There's at least one train of them, maybe two or three. Sure beats riding an R68, doesn't it? You'd never see one of them hit the big five-oh. Slants do it all the time!
Wayne /mrSlantR40\
[A few Slant R40 have been spotted on the B, especially on weekends. There's at least one train of them, maybe two or three. Sure beats riding an R68, doesn't it? You'd never see one of them hit the big five-oh. Slants do it all the time!]
That comparison may apply in terms of life span as well as speed. There's at least a possibility that some of the slants might hit 50 years in service, though admittedly their chances aren't as good as the R32s/R38s. Now, I have this suspicion that the R68s will have as dismal a life span as the R30s.
And most of us won't regret it one iota either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For all of their interior finery (and I do admit, the R68 is a handsome subway car, interior-wise), they have been "dumbed-down" in terms of their operating potential, from what I have heard from reliable sources. While I can't say how they will do in the long run (i.e. over 30 years service), they are not world-class when it comes to speed.
As I've posted earlier, Simon Billis and I rode at the front of #4314 on the "Q" on March 15 and gleefully watched three R68 "D" trains disappear in our wake. I took one good photo of us charging up the tracks between Avenues M and J, an R68 plodding along the local track beside us. We hit the five-oh on the grade coming into Newkirk, our nominal speed on level ground ranged from 42 to 47. (The T/O's door was ever-so-slightly ajar).
Love those Slants!
Wayne
Now just imagine being able to operate these trains.It is a thrill standing at the storm door of these R42's but operating one is the ultimate. I only wish I had been a train operator when these trains really moved.
Yes that would be fun. But my little pleasure was running the Redbirds before the Modifyed trains. I remember operating those R 33 on the No.5 Line. That was fun! I would challege Baychester Ave to see how good the brakes were. Gun Hill was also a nice fast station too on the Dyre Line. Then on the Lexington Ave Express is a Nice fast ride from 125 Street to 86 Street. 59 Street is a challeging Station. I use to not apply brake intil hiting the edge of the Platform.(Lots of trains use to fly out of the station) 14 Street was good before the timers.
On the No.2 Line Pelham Parkway was a good stop to fly into if you had a good braking train. 72 Street I always pray I wouldn't fly of of that station. Going full speed past 59 Street was a trill.
But that was my good old years before the trains were modifyed.
Now for one day a week starting with the new pick I'll be operating those R 33'S on the No.2 Line but a little slower then those good old day's.
Before the timers were put in and the equipment slowed down, my favorite operating stretch was the express tracks between Pacific St. and 36th St. Particularly southbound (towards CI). You would constantly pick up more & more speed till you were virtually flying by the time you left Prospect Ave. and came down the hill into 25th St. In the words of The Legion of Doom: "AAAH, What a Rush!". You would begin to take a brake at the time you hit the switch frog coming over from the northbound express track (midnite B & R shuttle relay position), and come in to the station to a perfect stop at the car marker. Yes, the switch frogs suffer much less wear and tear today because of the restricted speed.
The Legion of Doom is finished!
That was braking too early for my days but was a favorite of mine too. When I had the real slants with the markers and fans I started braking at the last crossover entering 36 St with 35 pounds. Those 100 hp GE motors whined like jets. I always hated the controllers though.
Could someone explain what a "timer" is and how they function. Is it a device that restricts speed? I am not a train operator, just curious.
A timer is used to slow trains down. The first signal is yellow with and S sign showing on the bottom. The next signal is a red with a with white light on the bottom. A the train slows up to the allowable speed the signal clears up. If the train does not slow up the train will hit the red light and trip up. If you hit those timers on the Pelham Line Westchester Master tower knows before you call it in.
Also check the This web site's signal's section out for a visual.
In a two block grade time signaling situation the last signal will not have a white aspect or "S" aspect. The last signal will clear on two block GT however, it will act as a one block GT if the preceding signal did not upgrade to green from yellow over illuminated "S".
Those hippopotamus R-68s make that CPW express run on the D about as exciting as watching paint dry. Booorrrinnnngggg...
I will have to include a southbound 6th Ave. express run on some slant R-40s this fall when I'm in the city again.
I still rank an uptown express run up CPW on an A train of R-10s as the best. Nothing could beat the R-10s in their heyday.
Get thyself out to Brighton-Beach and come back on a Q Brighton Express for an authentic rush - and watch the hippopotami disappear in your wake!
Wayne
That would be a good tag for the line's trains -- The Slant R-40s and the Hippopotami R-68s. Having them on an express line (i.e. the D on CPW) kind of ruins the whole meaning of the word `express'.
Been there, done that. Did you ever ride the slants on the A right after they took over for the R-10s? That express dash up CPW was just as exhilirating, albeit a tad quieter.
How's this for an R-68 nickname: lumbering lard tub.
I have about a dozen recorded rides on Slant R40 on the A. #4441 before its GOH - with the original A/C and strip map sign was the only one I went up CPW in. A couple of others were express runs on the Fulton Express and various parts of the 8th Avenue line. #4386, #4399 (yes, that one again!) during a 1978 day trip. I seemed to run into the R40A more than the regular R40 (I guess I just liked the A/C cars better).
Wayne
Yeah, you're right. It's the F that runs local on 6 Avenue. Guess I'm long overdue for a trip to NYC to refresh my memory!
Actually, that wasn't the only thing. N & R trains were running EXPRESS this weekend between Canal St and 57th St due to track work. Happened to catch one on the way upwown from Chinatown. And aboard an R-32, no less.
--Mark
Darn! I didn't see that on the subway diversions page... or I would have take a ride on the Never and Rarely!
I did also ride the , which was shuttling between Queensboro Plaza and Main Street (express Manhattan-bound from Junction Blvd. to QBP!). The conductor announced the change with, "Due to a G.O., ..." [I wonder what percentage of the public knows what a 'G.O.' is?] As it turns out, even though the announcements were frequent and clear on my train of 'birds, people still sat at QBP waiting to continue inbound until the platform conductors came in and shooed them out - while the announcements of "This train is returning to Main Street" continued.
[I did also ride the 7, which was shuttling between Queensboro Plaza and Main Street (express Manhattan-bound from Junction Blvd. to QBP!). The conductor announced the change with, "Due to a G.O., ..." [I wonder what percentage of the public knows what a 'G.O.' is?] As it turns out, even though the announcements were frequent and clear on my train of 'birds, people still sat at QBP waiting to continue inbound until the platform conductors came in and shooed them out - while the announcements of "This train is returning to Main Street" continued.]
That actually isn't surprising. The 7 has long been known for its large number of immigrant riders, so many of the people who stayed on the train at QBP simply might not have understood the conductor's announcements.
Did you ever ride the No.7 Express from Willets Point to Queensboro Plaza? Thats one good ride!
Yes, David, I have ridden the . It's a terrific ride. And I vaugely remember riding the "SuperExpress" when the (60's) NY World's Fair was open. Now that was a ride, and of course when the trains' balancing speeds were near 50 mph (*snif*).
Am hopeing to catch a Slant 40 on 6th Ave this Wed. when I have to travel from our depot in Queens to a DOT meeting at South Ferry. This time it will be for more than one stop :-)
Mr t__:^)
Of course..when going out to Shea...seems fitting, as it's opening day today!
Not till the 12th, and I'll be there! Go Mets!
-Hank
LETS GO METS!
HELL YEAH LETS GO METS! AND THIS TIME THEY BETTER KICK ATLANTA BRAVES BUTT!!!!!!
Here, here. Hopefully, Rickey Henderson will steal a ton of bases and Mike Piazza will follow in the footsteps of Jerry Grote and Gary Carter. BTW, Henderson is wearing #24; except for Kelvin Torve, who wore it for one game a few years back, that number has been in limbo since Willie Mays retired.
Oh, and let's hope the pitching is halfway decent.
And, last but not least, they should put some orange and blue trim on the #7 trains, whether they be Redbirds or R-62s. Or at least a plug for the Mets.
Let's hope that there is a happy recap for this years team...a World Series Championship.
I rode the 7 express once, on August 1, 1970, after the Mets had defeated San Diego. Tom Seaver struck out 13 that day, and Cleon Jones hit a 3-run dinger to win it. That train moved!
Will we have a Subway Series this year? Has it really been 30 years since the Met Miracle? I remember that vivdly.
Simon and I got a ride on #9440, , on March 15. We left Times Square about 4:20PM. After we paused out of Queensborough Plaza for our express track clearance, it was a swift ride to Main Street. The T/O did overshoot by about 35 feet the platform at Jct. Bvld. The remnants of the morning snow were still on the tracks, but it had cleared up nicely with puffy clouds. The ride over the flying express track was impressive; I have two photos - one going up, the other down, with Shea Stadium visible in the distance, may post these in the not-too-distant future. Nice pictures of the renovation at Main Street, including the cleaned/restored Vickers "wingies" on the walls.
I never did understand what those little designs meant - they look like airplane wings, but they were put up in 1928, long before the Jet age.
Wayne
That is a very good run on the Flyover 103rd Street. I don't know if there are many flyovers you can go full speed on. I rode car 9303 the other day going from Main Street.
#9303 - That's one of the #4 Redbirds I think! (9300-9305 are the last five of the R33 Mainline before the Singles start with the Museum car at 9306) Anyway, whatever car it's in, it is a fun run up and down the flyover - about the closest thing to a roller coaster you can get on the Subway.
Don't let the Meatcorker get to you Dave. Personal rivalries and the like don't have any place in this forum. He/she won't show their e-mail address. My Dad worked in 207 Street Shoppe for over 15 years and he, being an even-tempered but firm individual, was often called on to mediate disputes between people there. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Cool heads shall prevail!
Wayne
It could've been over there.9294-9305 and a few 9100s were there in 1992 when they were having major problems with the R36 fleet.
You are absolutely right. I will keep an eye out for those (square-windowed) R33ML next time I am on the Flushing Line. Last time I saw them they were on the #4.
Wayne
It was field trip day for me yesterday, i.e. I had a meeting at DOTs' South Ferry office & also went to Cubic office at 14th Street. So, armed with my new Yankee Fun Pass I met a 9 AM Queens Surface Orion at the Whitestone Expressway. This employee & the driver greeted each other, I felt like an airline employee, i.e. "subject to load" & last to board, as this is the last stop & all seats were taken. The trip in affored a great view of the Manhattan skyline.
At 6th Ave I started down the stairs when I saw a hippo in the station, it was big & scary so I waited until it departed ;-) I then waited for a F & B to come & go, next came the first of 3 Slant 40s that I rode this day. The ride to West 4th was a fast one. On my way to the meeting I exited & re-entered several stations as I was trying to obtain the "ABC News" MetroCard. The Fun Pass worked well for this activity, with only one problem trying to re-enter Bowling Green after the meeting (the turnstile reader had a problem & I made the classic mistake, i.e. after swiping & getting "try again" several times I went to the next trunstile & got "Just Used". Fortunately I had a value card on me with one ride left).
Other trains I caught this day: D, 6 (Red Bird), 4, E, and a Slant 40 on the L.
At 2:45 I caught another of our new Orion CNGs & enjoyed the view from the 59th bridge.
P.S. As I approached one Token Booths I saw one of the ABC News MC in the window ... I thought this agent must be a collector, she is & I encourged "SunFlower" to join her colleagues on SubTalk ;-)
Mr t__:^)
You saw a hippo? Are you sure it wasn't an R-68? (yuk-yuk-yuk)
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
You guys from the mid-west are just jealous ... he he he
Mr t__:^)
I wish they would (once the bridge situation gets resolved) run the "Q" during the day on weekends. I don't always get to ride during the normal weekday hours and when I do, I always make a beeline for the "Q" for at least one express run. Slants on the "L" also are one of "life's little pleasures". Back on Jan.28 Peg and I were at Metropolitan-Grand and we headed over to the Lorimer Street station to check in on the rehab job. When we got to the platform, there were TWO Slants in the station, one was #4400 going west and the other had #4439, one of my favorites, at the rear. I did manage to get a picture (not perfect) of these two trains together.
Wayne
Sorry Wayne I think I have by Numbers Mixed up. It was a R 33WF
Wow and what I ride that was. I shall remember it always. I am looking forward to Subway tour No5. Anyone know a good clean and cheap hotel? which has single rooms.
One of Chicago's little pleasures, at least for me, is to stand on the platform at the Addison (Wrigley Field) station during rush hour. You can stand at the north end of the platform and get an unrestricted view of north and southbound action.
The 'L' is a 4-track mainline (on elevated structure) at this point with the Red Line using an "island" platform on tracks 2 (SB) & 3 (NB). The Evanston Purple Line trains uses the outside tracks, tracks 1 (SB) & 4 (NB). It is fun to watch the trains negotiate the curve just east (south) of Sheridan Road and make their way south. At times you get an express (Purple) on #1 and a local (Red) on #2 "pacing" each other. Of course the pacing ends just north of the station platform for the Red Line trains, they must make the stop at Addison. The Purple Line train doesn't start braking until after running through the station area.
In Chicago, the 'L' still has a top speed of 55 MPH (CAB 55) which is attained in some stretches.
Alas, this isn't a weekend pleasure, as the Evanston Express doesn't operate except during the weekday rush.
JimK
Chicago
I have ridden on Blue line trains in the median of the Kennedy Expressway which have reached 65 mph. There could be a huge traffic jam, while your train is zooming along.
Now, if they could only do something about the noise level in the subway stretches...
I, for one, definintely think its impossble to design a standard type subway car for a majority, if not all, of the systems in this country. With all the variations of dimensions, gauges, load factors, state of the art systems vs. old technology systems, it would be impossible. Can anybody imagine an R-142 on the D.C. Metro????? Forget it!
Why? I'm sure folks said the same thing 70 years ago about trolley cars, and the PCC was developed despite that. The car was versatile enough to accommodate the various dimension requirements (long for Chicago, shorter for Boston/DC, wider for Minneapolis, double-ended for San Francisco, Pacific Electric). The same type of standard subway car could be developed and slightly customized for any given situation. Thus, an R-142 could be upgraded with better interior fittings and widened and lengthened to be suitable for the DC Metro.
Yes!!!. First off if the TA itself could settle on an in house standard,--okay two one IRT one IND/BMT. That should cut the cost and the time between ink and cars. Seconly and I know this worse than asking the Air Force to accept a clone of a Navy plane but, since the PATH was originally scaled to be compatible with the IRT, just what is the problem with havid PA 6b's or whatever? As to other properties, CTA seems to have a "standard and by and large they run. BART was built to a completely lame guage and is a design miasma. DC again has a de facto in house standard--I imagine they will get "more of the same" when they decide they need more. Baltimore and Miami bought clones. So although we are not at the PCC point it is not hopeless. Besides the TA has more cars than everybody else together no?
WMATA is stuck with a restrictive loading gauge, so all car purchases must adhere to the dimensions of the first Rohr cars. WMATA's tunnels are so tight that the diesel work motors have had their cabs cut down so much that the engineer sits on the floor.
Baltimore's clearences are so generous that standard railroad equipment fits with no problems - the MTA picked up several flats and gons for work service - AAR couplers and brakes included. B&O (CSX) delivered 'em on their own wheels, via the interchange at Wabash Avenue.
As to the Baltimore/Miami cars - built as one large order. The ONLY difference is that the Miami cars don't have end signs.
The LA cars are the same as Balitimore and Miami, aren't they?
Even if an entire car cannot be used on every system, it would help if parts and components were standardized across as many systems as possible. Since the MTA accounts for such a huge share of the U.S. transit market, it could lead this effort itself. No, BART can't use the same trucks, but it could use other components. The A and B divisions, and PATH, could use the same trucks, plus or minus a little power in the motors.
Or not. Have you noticed how Chrysler Corps mid sizes are a little sluggish, and its small cars have a lot of oommph? Same engine. Those are IRT engines on the R68, aren't they?
There's a group called the "New York Railcar Consortium" composed of purchasing types from NYC area transit properties that buys common car parts in bulk quantities. A recent PATH blurb claims they saved 20% on air brake components last year.
(Purchasing consortium). The NYCTA purchasing outfit seems to be on the ball, the fact that have been desparately trying to hire people non-withstanding. I wonder why the LIRR and Metro North don't subcontract purchasing to the TA, and supply their maintenence outfits out of storeroom 55 (the TA's central warehouse in Maspeth). Not only could the TA combine orders, but maybe merging the units could could solve their personnel shortage.
Of course, that could end up just being a ruse to dump costs on the city. But purchasing and the central storeroom could be run as an MTA operation, with each operating authority charged based on its number of transactions.
Great thought. But MTA,political animal that it is,probably wouldn't go for it. IMHO, one of MTA's greatest failures lies in not combining administrative and purchasing functions,especially on the commuter rail side. They're still run as separate entities (kingdoms?) each with their own managements,etc.
Getting Metro-North and the LIRR to combine purchases is a lost cause - witness the latest purchases - LIRR get double deckers and GM locomotives, Metro-North gets single level and GE locos. If the LIRR would have been able to deal with the GE stuff and single level cars, they could have both combined recent orders into one massive one. Bulk buying saves $$$ Why this logical step never happened baffles me.
As for the LIRR - GCT pipe dream - has anyone even stopped to work out if it's even possible? They use different third rails, the double deckers will never fit into the Park Ave tunnels, the cab signal systems are different. How would such a system work? I can't imagine that Metro-North would give up the lower level to the LIRR.
Why this logical step never happened baffles me.
It's government. Logic is impossible.
As for the LIRR/MNCR, I don't understand why they couldn't share the locos, (as they tried to do with the rebuilt FL-9s), but the car requirements were different. LIRR can use fewer double-decker cars to carry the same number of people as single-deck cars (about 1.7:1 ratio) The fewer cars you run, the fewer crewmen you need. The fewer crewmen you need, the more efficiently you operate. It's therefore too bad that bi-levels don't fit the Park Ave Tunnels. MNCR could've used them.
As for the LIRR to GCT: 6 tracks on the lower level will be dedicated to LIRR trains. It'll be a 'terminal-within-terminal' concept. The tracks will be set up for the LIRR cars only, and will connect to the 63st lower level. BTW, the issue over double-deckers to GCT is moot, as the 63st Tunnel is not large enough.
-Hank
(63rd St tunnel not large enough for double deckers). There's thinking ahead.
That fact absolutely blows my mind. Even Amtrak would have seen that coming.
[(63rd St tunnel not large enough for double deckers). There's thinking ahead.] [That fact absolutely blows my mind. Even Amtrak would have seen that coming.]
In all fairness, the rediscovery of double decker technology came quite a few years after the 63rd Street Tunnel was designed and built. Hasn't the tunnel been on the drawing boards since the 1960's and didn't it just get completed in the early 1980's. Remember, the M-1's were still new and LIRR/MTA wasn't thinking two level in those days.
And speaking of the M-1's, remember when they were delivered it was quite a while before modifications to Flatbush Terminal allowed them to use the facility.
Jim K.
Sleepless in Chicago
(63rd St can't accomodate double deckers, not thinking ahead). I think this is a case of fighting the last war. The IND was overdesigned and therefore too expensive to be finished. The MTA sought to build minimal designs and build more. Of course, we ended up with unbuilt minimal designs.
Ah "standards"--now "someone" should have insisted on full "PLATE C" or greater tunnel size--but who was thinking? BYW, IMHO double deckers are noty a bright idea. Particularly because they do not tend to load/unload as rapidly as single level cars--not to mention ADA compliance.
The bi-levels (technically, they're trilevel) are fully ADA Compliant. The loading area leads to a mid-level section of the car (on the end) that has space for at least 2 wheelchairs, nad has an ADA Toilet. All that's needed for compliance.
BTW, The Northwest Talgos were designed and built with full ADA compliance throughout the train. It is the only trainset (in the world, I believe) in North America where a passenger in a wheelchair can move between cars.
-Hank
Actually the USDOT, back in the '70s, did EXACTLY what everyones talking about: it developed a State of the Art Car which 'toured' various systems ( see: the 1st edition of Cudahys "Under the Sidewalks of New York") Unfortunately, it based a LOT on the design of the R-44..so we all know what happened to THAT idea...
There is an extensive section on this site on the SOAC Car. If you would like to see it in person,
come up to the Seashore Trolley Museum this summer!
SOAC in appearance was a hybrid of the R-44s with the BART trains. If the motors for the R-68s had been around at the time, they probably would have added those to create the most annoying high-tech car the government could design.
The reality of the situation is that the SOAC cars are in fact the last two R-44s built. They were tacked onto that order from St. Louis Car Co. (the only subway cars in production at the time). This is a longtime practice in purchase of prototypes. Boston's first PCC, 3001, was an add on to Brooklyn's 99 car order from St. Louis.
SOAC-1 rides on GSC-70 trucks which were for a long time (before and after) the industry standard (except for NYC & CTA).
No, wait, I think it was the other way around .. the R44 and R46 were based on the SOAC car design. In fact, the US Government basically said, if you don't adapt the best practices in theat design, you could forget about Federal funding ....
--Mark
You mean our government would use threatslike that?...perish the thought....
Someone asked if the Miami and Baltimore cars were similar to the Los Angeles cars.
YES!
In fact, before Los Angeles had any cars available, they had a four-car set from Miami to test everything out.
Almost the same exact car, except the Los Angeles cars are made by Breda.
At this very moment, there is a single-alarm fire on the Mezzanine level of the Halsey St station on the line. Further info as I get it.
-Hank
Let it burn, hope there is a train over it
A quick update, the fire has gone all-hands, and is confined to a locker room/storage area.
-Hank
That's what they said about Bergen St. Is it on the J or L? If it's on the J, and if it's a signal relay room, the J & M all the way from Marcy Ave. will be affected.
The signal relay room is at Gates ave.
Hey guys and gals,
What's up with the TA for some fan trips with the ABs, D-types, and R9s? OK, I know the ABs aren't ready for prime time, but what is the projected date?
What's the shape of the D-types and R9s? I guess if nothing's ready to run from the BMT/IND I'd even settle for the LO-Vs. (no offense IRT fans!) I need a fix of those bull and pinion gears and brake sounds.
Maybe the ABs could do the inaugural run on the NEW Franklin Ave. Shuttle.
Anybody else out there that could shed some light on the remants of the Polo Grounds Shuttle; ie the remaining platforms, how to get to them, and has anybody been in the tunnel and what remains therein?
Mike H
Now you've got me going on those bull and pinion gear sounds. I miss them, too. Until I have a chance to ride the Triplexes, I may have to fork over twenty bucks for one of those fantrip videos and pump the sound through my stereo.
... and I have 2 new ones coming very very soon, so, as they say, stay tuned :)
--Mark
What's up with the TA for some fan trips with the ABs, D-types, and R9s?
The D-Types need body work and I've heard there may be none this year, or if there is one, it'll be in the fall.
The R9s, I don't know their condition.
I know the ABs aren't ready for prime time, but what is the projected date?
Well, since they're being restored by a group of voluntters meeting Tuesday nights to do this work, I'd say to be patient on this one.
I guess if nothing's ready to run from the BMT/IND I'd even settle for the LO-Vs. (no offense IRT fans!) I need a
fix of those bull and pinion gears and brake sounds.
I'm sure you'll be able to get your "fix" come September. I see no reason why the Railway Preservation Corporation won't be running another of their Lo-V fantrips ....
Maybe the ABs could do the inaugural run on the NEW Franklin Ave. Shuttle.
Now I'd love to see THAT!!
--Mark
If they do a good enough job of restoration on the AB's, why not run them in FS revenue service on occasions? Two will fit in the new shuttle stations. And it's not such a taxing trip for the old girls, just four stops.
Wayne
Anyone know many cars each train on the Franklin Shuttle will operate with? How long will the platforms be? How many trains will operate on the line at once during peak periods?
Thanks,Mike H
Probably not returning to the 1960s, when the Franklin Shuttle platforms could all accommodate 6 car trains of Standards (and did so on weekends when through service ran to Brighton Beach or Coney Island).
In those days they ran 3 train sets during rush hours, with service approximately every 5 mins.
I beleive elsewhere on the board someone said that Franklin Shuttle will be two non paired R68's. Since the Franklin Ave side of the shuttle will be single tracked further than it used to be there will be some time adjustment in the headways. They used to run two trains with a spare sitting at Prospect Park and another one at Coney Island.
It is all OPTO too.
The last time I can remember the TA running historic trains on a regular schedule was for the 75th anniversary back in 1979, when the LoVs were used on the Lex run, but only between Brooklyn Bridge and 59th St.
There may be others since then, but it shows putting the ABs on the shuttle wouldn't be unprcedented.
Actually, there was a more recent occurrance. The Lo-Vs ran in Times Square - Grand Central shuttle revenue service during rush hours on October 27th, 1994, the subway's 90th birthday.
--Mark
That's right Mark... and I rode them as a member of the "press." (They didn't ask why the meteorologist from WCBS wanted to be on board!)
[The Lo-Vs ran in Times Square - Grand Central shuttle revenue service
during rush hours on October 27th, 1994, the subway's 90th birthday.]
I actually rode one of the Lo-Vs from Grand Central to Times Square that morning. But don't bother asking me what it was like, because I scarcely took note of the ride :-( That was over a year before I became interested in the subways, and my knowledge of the system would've fit in a thimble (for example, I didn't realize that IRT cars were smaller than those on the B Division). Subways were just a form of transportation to me at that time. I knew, of course, that I was boarding a old car, but I really didn't pay much attention to my surroundings. What a lost opportunity ... sigh.
Today, of course, I'd have ridden the car back and forth as long as I could, and gone in late to work as a result :-)
I rode the Lo-V train that day for about 6 1/2 round trips and it was great fun. Most of the passengers liked seeing the old cars and a few of the older transit workers had actually worked with the High-V's and were telling stories about them. There even was one old gentlemen there who had worked for the IRT when it was a private company. The Lo-V's may have been pushing 80 but it was nice to see the old timers still hold down a rush hour assignment.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I was in the city the previous week in 1994, and saw flyers announcing that a vintage 1917 train would be running on the shuttle on the 27th. I thought, damn, this is the story of my life - always missing subway opportunities. The following summer, I was back east for a week on a service trip, and flew home on July 21 - 30 years to the day after my first subway ride - and was fully aware of the Triplex fantrip on the 23rd.
Nothing is going to keep me away from New York on Oct. 27, 2004.
I thought the FS was going to be the new home of the R-110Bs, ala the R-11s.
--Mark
And don't forget the Zephyr (Budd experimental multi-section train from the 1930s) which ran on the Franklin Shuttle until the mid-50s.
The MTA should used R-110B for Franklin Shuttle Line because it had three cars set each. But what are the going to do with R-110B? Are they going to build more R-110B in the future or this just for the test?
The R-110 cars were strictly the test platforms for what has become the R-142/143. There won't be any more, and given the normal tendency of the TA to retire prototypes early (after all, they become a maintenance headache over time simply because they aren't standard) I doubt we'll even see them on the property in five years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Lo-V cars! my all time favorite. And now, thanks to Wayne- the Lo-V adorns my desktop as an Icon (along with a redbird, slant 40 and an R38)
Made a visit to a couple of new hobby shops this past week, one in Manhattan the other Freeport LI. Picked up a March copy of RailNews.
I seen this before & concluded that it was more for rail employees then hobbiests, i.e. more info. then I realy wanted to know. I picked it up because the rounded-end observation car caught my eye. This issue has a couple of articles that interested me & several photos of various Amtrak engines, e.g. F59PHI, Dash9-44CW, SDP40F, P42, etc.
Interseting facts:
- More folks fly in a week then take Amtrak in a year.
- 2M passengers per month total, North East over 1M.
- On time preformance, month reported, was 80%, surprise anyone ?
- Nice photo of a "T" PCC at Mattapan in the mass transit sect
The "Commentary" by Jim Giblin is very critical of Amtrak's proposal for a high speed hub & spoke service centered on Chicago, called MWRRI (Midwest Regional Rail Initiative). I found this a strange discussion for a rail fan publ., but then if you're a freight engineer reading it, maybe you would like it.
Mr t__:^)
I think "Rail News" is a good source for railfans to see how the entire industry is looking at itself. I am most interested in the Amtrak and commuter columns (like you, I imagine), but occasionally its informative to see all sides. Also, the opinion columns tend not to pull punches with regard to Amtrak, but is this necessarily bad?
As far as the on-time performance, you might take a look at a book called "Derailed" by a Mr. Vranich in 1997, which has some things to say about Amtrak's reporting methods near the beginning of the book. The book is a bit depressing for us railfans, but it takes a good hard look at Amtrak and deconstructs it bit-by-bit.
Another good Transit column appears in "Railway Age," which is actually the definative trade pub for the industry.
Having read Mike H's post regarding the motorman who crashed that set of BMT standards into a bumper block because he was unfamiliar with non-SMEE braking made me curious: how would a motorman bring a non-SMEE train to a stop as opposed to an SMEE train? I know this has been discussed before, but if one of our technical experts could provide a step-by-step description for each type of train, it would clarify things.
Let's use two A trains in our example: one of R-1/9s and one of R-10s, and say both trains are headed southbound along 8th Ave. and have just passed 50th St. and are gathering speed on that downhill run to 42nd St. Now they're roaring into 42nd St. and it's time to bring each train to a stop.
One other thought came to mind about that unlucky motorman: did he realize the controller and brake valve on BMT standards were switched around compared to SMEE equipment?
OK
On the SMEE cars the t/o simply pulls his brake handle back toward him to apply the brakes, leaves it there or pulls it further to get more brake, then pushes it away from him to cushion the final stop. When the train comes to a stop he pulls it back to full service. The brake pressure varies with the position of the handle. The gauge reads straight air pipe pressure which approximaes cylinder pressure [varies w/ variable load valve].
On AMUE cars, the t/o pulls the handle to apply position, watching the air gauge to determine how much brake he is going to get. He then moves the handle back to lap and waits for the brake to build up. If he needs more he moves the handle to apply again, and back to lap. To release he moves the handle away from him and back to lap again. If he waits too long he loses everything and has to start over. AMUE requires a lot more experience to operate perfectly smooth and is a lot less forgiving of mistakes. The brake pressure depends on how long the handle is in a given position. The gauge reads brake pipe pressure which is about 90 psi in release and about 65 psi in full service.
Gerry
"The gauge reads straight air pipe pressure which approximaes cylinder pressure [varies w/ variable load valve].
This is not actually correct. While the cylinder pressure may be close to the straight air pressure on cars with Tread Brake Units, it surely is not true on cars with clasp brakes. For example, I might pull a 70 Lb. Brake on an R-46 (SAP=70 PSI) and the brake cylinder pressure will be around 66 PSI while on an R-32 that same 70 Lb Brake will yield less than 40 PSI of Brake Cylinder pressure. A more accurate statement might be that the brake cylinder pressure is always directly proportional to the straight air pressure on SMEE equipment.
Yeah, NOW it is. As designed it was almost equal, depending on the loading. But we've been there before.
The facts speak for themselves. Spec for stopping distance is approx. 253 feet @ 30MPH. As tested shortly after the Williamsburg bridge murder: OVER 300 feet! ( I forget the exact number ) TA engineers KNEW this when they changed the J relay valves. But saving money over flat spotted wheels was more important. Ah, but this argument is moot. Management solved the problem to their satisfaction. They removed the field shunt coils from the final stages of acceleration, so they hardly make 30 MPH now. And to boot they save even MORE money on power costs!
Scum!
I agree with Steve: they should have left the field shunt coils in place on the R-68s.
Whoa, Erik, I thought we agree'd to disagree on this issue.
BTW - Re-send your E-mail address. Roughly 1/3 of my E-mail got lost recently.
Sorry Steve, Sometimes I can't resist the temptation to sermonize on certain subjects on which I feel so strongly about. I can sympathize with you, though.
Erik6398 was the old address at my mom's, here it's
BrassBallsInc@webtv.net
The brakes on R-9 equipment are "AMUE". They are similar
in operation to railroad freight brakes in being a reduction-based
system. The trainline brake pipe is normally at 70 psi (not
90, Gerry R.) while the train is running with all brakes released.
The motorman bleeds air out of the brake pipe from his brake valve.
Reduction in brake pipe pressure below 70 applies the brakes.
The balancing point is 50 psi. At 50 psi brake pipe pressure,
there is 50 psi at each brake cylinder, and that's the maximum
service brake. Further reduction of brake pipe pressure will
not give more braking effort, but it will waste air. At about
30 psi, the train will dump into emergency.
An emergency brake application is made by venting the brake pipe.
The rapid reduction of brake pipe pressure, OR brake pipe pressure
below 30 psi will initiate emergency braking. Brake cylinder
pressure in emergency is higher, about 65 psi.
This more or less describes railroad freight quick-action automatic
train brakes. Nothing happens quickly in that system though.
AMUE adds an electric trainline to send the brake commands
throughout the train. The brakes are controlled by the motorman
via the ME-23 brake valve. The positions are:
Release
Electric Holding
Handle Off
Lap
Service
Emergency
When running, the brake handle is in release. The electric brake
is inert in this position, and the brake pipe is fed by air
which is regulated to 70 psi pressure by a feed valve.
To make an application, the handle is moved to service. Two things
happen in parallel. The electric brake A and R wires are energized,
causing electropneumatic valves under each car to feed main reservoir
air (NOT brake pipe air) directly into the brake cylinders.
At the same time, air is slowly bled out of the brake pipe. Therefore, if the electric brake is not being used or inoperative,
a brake application happens in the same handle position regardless, although it is slower, taking about 5 seconds to make a full 20 pound reduction.
When the desired brake has been set up, the handle is moved back to
Electric Holding. Pneumatically, the brake pipe is recharged, same
as in release. However, electrically, the R wire is energized and
the A wire is not, which holds the brake cylinder presssure unchanged.
When running electrically, electric holding acts as the "Lap"
position and the brake application is graduated by moving between
release and electric holding. Because the brake pipe is being
recharged, pneumatically the train wants to release in electric
holding, but the electric brake is preventing that.
With the electric brake, response to braking command is almost
instantaneous, but the amount of brake is still proportional to
the time spent in the service position. It still takes a few
seconds to make a full service application. Contrast that with
SMEE, where you can throw the handle back to Full Service and
have it in less than a half-second.
Unlike SMEE, the electric brake is optional. Under AMUE, the
motorman must either insert a plug (R1-9 and BMT equipment) or
an overhead key (IRT) to enable it. If running pneumatically,
electric holding is identical to release, and the motorman
uses the Lap position to hold brakes constant. Lap will also
hold the brakes when running electrically, but because the brake
pipe is not being recharged, the train will not respond immediately
to a release command.
Handle off is where you can take the brake handle off. Pneumatically,
the brake valve becomes isolated from the train. There is a subtle
distinction between Lap and Handle Off which involves the Equalizing
mechanism, but I'm not going to get into that. You also take your
electric key or plug out and that kills the electric brake, so
the brake stand in handle off is completely inert as it should be.
The Emergency position exhausts the brake pipe directly through a
large orifice (and a big HHH to D.R.) This causes a rapid
chain reaction and the entire train goes into emergency, venting
the brake pipe down to 0 psi. The trainline E wire is also energized
which causes electropneumatic valves on each car to vent the
brake pipe. All this ensures a very rapid and firm brake application.
I wasn't sure whether NYC used 70 or 90 psi as an operating pressure, since I don't deal much with those cars. My hope was to provide a simplefied explanation without all the technical details. (Of course there are several persons on this site who love those details and probably wanted to get the whole story.
Boston's train air equipment used AMLE with a seven position valve (I don't recall the model). The positions were:
Release (same as release described above)
Electric Lap (same as holding described above)
Electric Service (valve is in lap - brake pipe open to cylinder)
Pneumatic Lap (all magnets deenergized, no ports open)
Pneumatic Service (brake pipe vented to atmosphere)
Pneumatic Fast Service (ditto)
Emergency (large port for brake pipe PLUS on Cambridge-Dorchester (CD) cars, emergency magnet valve vents brake pipe on each car.)
Another interesting feature of the system was that on the Main Line (Elevated) cars, the electric brake circuit is fed from the 600 volt line, which was not trainlined. Thus if the first car gapped with the brake in electric lap, the brakes released! It has happened to me when a car has run under a section insulator at Seashore. The CD cars have a battery powered electric brake, which is more reliable - but - the fingers and segments oxidize from lack of use and you sometimes have to work the handle back and forth a few times before the electric brake takes hold. Add to that the fact that 0719 has a leaky brake pipe, making lengthy pneumatic operation a guaranteed path to an emergency application, and you have an interesting braking situation.
The 1923-24 East Boston Cars were retrofitted from AMLE to SMEE (without dynamic braking) in 1952. I know of no other such conversions. At the same the PC-5 cam controls were converted from series parallel to parallel only, and possibly from 600 volt to battery control.
Must have kept the instructors on their toes!
Boston also had another unique device, a trip switch in the cab and an extra coil in the overload relay which would allow the operator to trip all of the breakers in the train if a controller jammed in an on position.
Jeff;
I never worked on AMUE equipment so I dont know. But when I was a car Inspector at NJT I did work on the coaches. They were almost identical to AMUE. Freight cars too, for that matter. The Brake Cylinder on them is charged by the auxialiary resivoir, as BP pressure vents, by the control valve (triple valve). The auxialliary resivoir was charged by the BP when the brakes were released. Main resivoir was only used to charge the BP from either the brake valve or in the case of passenger cars (MU or Coach) locally via the EP brake's R solenoid valve.
No supplementary reservoir on this equipment?
No. When the Compressor is first turned on to a "dry" car, or a Main Resivoir hose attached, there is NO brake cylinder air until after the brakes (Aux. Resivoir)are charged,via the brake pipe. That's why the TA had a
nd still has the rule that trains must be first charged, THEN DUMPED, before the hand brakes are released!
Yes, that's standard on all "train air" systems. You can't take
air out (to apply the brakes) until you first put it in, via
the brake pipe. So, there is the counter-intuitive step of first
putting the handle in RELEASE, waiting till you build up full
brake pipe pressure, and then dumping or taking a reduction
to apply the brakes. This holds for AMUE equipment as well.
But my question was whether the equipment you mentioned (NJT
coaches) have supplementary reservoirs, and also, while
I'm at it, what type of Triple Valve are they using?
No triple valves. Control valves. AB, ABD, ABDW,
ABDWX,etc.
Cab cars have Sup.Res =, because the're built as
locomotives, except without motors.
Coaches are treated only slightly different from freight cars, and running them in a freight train is 1 2 3.
When in the past I have mentioned "taken out the feild
shunting" I was speaking in laymans terms, so that the
less tech oriented among us could understand, but then
again, Iv'e said that before.
A correction though.
The final three steps of cam advance take place at roughly
23 MPH. At that speed is when you can visibly check the
motor current ammeter for current above say 250 amps or
so. When held in enercon the train will lose much of it's
acceleration at about that point. I WISH it wold stay at
it till 30!
To apply the brakes on R-1/9's,the brake handle was pulled back into the "service" position,causing a reduction in Brake Pipe pressure. At high speeds,a 20 LB. "reduction" was usually called for.(Careful:more than a 20 LB reduction would cause the train to "dump".) When the desired braking rate is reached,move the handle slightly forward to the "lap" or "electric hold" position to maintain pressure. As it slows and less brake is required,push the handle forward to "release" then quickly pull back to "lap" as needed to adjust for the final stop. This took some practice to get it right!
SMEE by comparison,is much easier to master. Pull the brake handle into the "service range",causing air to be introduced into the Straight Air Pipe. When desired braking rate is reached,simply leave the handle there. As speed drops,adjust by moving the handle slightly towards (but not into) "release",reducing Straight Air Pressure for the final stop. As R-10's had cast iron brake shoes that really grabbed at low speeds,the final stop had to be made with relatively low S.A. pressure. If not,an extremely hard stop would result.
Thanks to both you and Gerry! That said, perhaps you could shed some light on this: on the R-1/9s, which maneuver caused the "tchhh" sound, and which one caused the "hssss" immediately afterwards? From what you described, I gather the "lap" produced the "tchhhh", while "release" produced the "hssss".
I miss those air brake sounds...
So do I. Any audio tapes of R-1/9's out there?
IIRC, the "tchhh" sound you describe occurred with the brake valve in "service". An electric valve would open,admitting Brake Pipe air into the cylinder. "Release" produced the "hiss",as air was vented from the cylinder. As the train drew to a stop,one would hear these sounds alternate with increasing frequency as the Motorman worked the brake valve. With SMEE,you'd hear intermittent hissing as S.A. pressure was reduced before stopping and a "woosh" as the brakes released before departing.
I love the smell of brake smoke in the morning..........
Thanks for the clarification. I would usually hear the "tchhh-hssss" sound repeated three times as a train of R-1/9s would slow to a stop, maybe four times on occasion. I gather the BMT standards had a different variation of non-SMEE braking, as they would go "tchhhhhh" just as a train would come to a full stop.
Probably a final release to prevent grabbing, which should have been followed by a full service application.
Steve
I remember it was either a Sunday or Saturday and I was riding the Nostalgia Special with my good friend Bill Mangahas. I can't recall if it was the R9s or D-types, but at the end of the run at 57th st. we were informed that the ABs had smacked into the bumper of one of the yard leads that ran parallel to the Sea Beach line.
Bil and I then went down the Sea Beach to the 86st station and walked on the city bound platform to the south end. Lo and behold there were the ABs lying sack up against a bumper block with the anticlimber and front door portion of the car smashed in. We were told a new motorman unfamiliar with the non-SMEE brake system had plowed the ABs into the bumper.
Well like I said this priority repair bumped the deck roof ABs from going in for restoration. As time went on, new management unsympathetic to the museum cars saw to it that they and many other non-restored museum cars (including a second set of Q-cars)were scrapped. A late deal to save both the deck roof AB set and the Q set fell through and the rest alas is history. What a waste!
Mike H
It makes you wonder just how fast those BMT standards were going. It took quite a wallop to do any sort of damage to those cars, as tough as they were.
I'll bet it was very interesting when the R-27s began arriving with their different controller and brake valve arrangement and SMEE braking. The best analogy would be swapping the accelerator and brake pedal locations on an automobile. Were any motormen thrown for a loop now that they had to apply power with the left hand and brake with the right, with a different braking method thrown in?
At the Seashore Trolley Museum we have a number of cars with "reversed" controls. Two examples come to mind:
Our Boston Blue Line "East Boston Tunnel Cars" 0512/0513 have the three-point (switching, series, parallel), automatic controller on the right, and SMEE brake handle on the left.
Our St. Louis PCC 1155 has the controller pedal on the left and brake pedal on the right. To make its operation even more confusing, the dead-man feature on this car requires one to keep constant pressure with one's heel on the brake pedal. When I learned to run that car, it took a lot of getting used to - with a number of inadvertant "dumps." Switching directly to another PCC, such as our SEPTA 2709, took some getting used to as well!
Alas, the above cars are now out-of-service; 0512/0513 have mechanical issues that need to be dealt with, and 1155 is under tarp being protected from the elements.
Jeff H. did an excellent job of explaining AMEU brake operation! A similar operation can be found on older interurbans, but they don't have the electric hold set-up. For example, Seashore's cars 420 & 755, from the North Shore Lines (Chicago-Milwaukee) operate in true train-air fashion. The brake handle positions are release, lap, service, emergency, and handle off. By the way, operating a single car or two-car train, it's nearly impossible to do a graduated release (let a little, but not all air out and come back to lap retaining some cylinder pressure).
In our training program at Seashore, in your first year we teach you "straight air" operation. The positions are simply release, lap/handle off and apply.
If I'm not mistaken, only BMT equipment had reverse positions as far as New York subway rolling stock is concerned. IRT cars had the same arrangement as the R-1/9s. Here's a question for you: is there any difference between bringing the IND sister cars to a stop and bringing Gibbs 3352 to a stop? What sort of braking sounds does 3352 give off?
As I recall the Gibbs car 3352 does not have the electric feature, so it works much like the straight train air system I described earlier for the North Shore cars. It has been five or more years since it was out on the main line at Seashore (and then only at restricted speed); it has been three years since it was switched under its own power for a "trolley parade." It needs volunteers and money to get it into condition!
Just a sidelight on the AMU equipment on the North Shore and CA&E cars. These have an extra position on the brake valve between lap and apply, where the brake pipe pressure will reduce to match equalizing reservoir pressure. This extra position allows the rear cars in a long train to get the same application as the forward cars. In apply you are really reducing the equalizing reservoir pressure, with the brake pipe following - in emergency the brake pipe goes. In lap all of the ports are closed and the handle can be removed. The speeds we operate at require only about a five pound reduction to stop the car or cars, thus graduated release isn't very effective. A five car train moving at ninety MPH would require a deeper reduction where graduated release would be more useful.
Yes indeed, those North Shore trains were capable of doing 90 mph, especially on the Skokie Valley route. South Shore trains were no slouches, either, when it came to speed.
A grab bag of air brake stuff..
To Gerry: According to a list of traction brake valves that
I have (which was provided by Mr. Dave Garcia out at the Orange
Empire Railway Museum), that brake valve you described with Boston
AMLE equipment is an ME-15B. It does not (did not) have an
equalizing feature. Very interesting stuff re the conversion
to SMEE and straight rheostatic acceleration. Did those cars get
retrofitted with PCC-style trucks?
Some questions arose about the Hi-Vs. They were originally delivered
with schedule AMP quick-acting train air brakes, same as was in
use at the time on the Manhattan Elevated system. Circa 1910,
the IRT retrofitted all their subway cars with state-of-the-art
electropneumatic brakes, schedule AMRE. The original brake valves
(M-15, I think) were upgraded to ME-21 and an extra trainline
jumper plug socket pair was added containing the 4 wires needed
for the E/P feature.
AMRE is somewhat similar to the later AMUE system used by the Lo-Vs,
BMT Standards, C and D types and R1-9s. The primary differences are:
AMRE (at least as used by the IRT) used 600 V brake control
trainline wires, as opposed to 32V battery voltage on AMUE
AMRE with the ME21 handle had the following positions: Release,
Electric Lap, Electric Apply, Lap, Service 1, Service 2, Emergency.
AMUE/ME-23 had: Release, Electric Hold, Handle Off, Lap, Service, Emergency. When working AMRE with the electric brake key in, you
move the handle to electric apply. This causes air to be fed from
the auxilliary reservoir directly into the brake cylinder on each
car. If the electric brakes failed, then you had to keep on going
and make a pneumatic application. Under AMUE, the pneumatic and
electric applications are coordinated.
There is no equalizing piston on the ME21 valve. This makes
the AMRE system a bit more responsive with 1 or 2 car trains, and
much, much worse on longer trains. I don't know how Seashore's
Gibbs car reacts, but Shore Line's 3662 grabs very fast, like a
streetcar.
There is a graduated pneumatic release under AMRE, but it tends
not to work too well.
If you dump your train under AMRE and leave it for a few hours,
even though the compressors are still running, the air will leak
away from the brake cylinders and not be replenished. Under AMUE,
main reservoir air continues to flow into the brake cylinders
when in emergency.
About "reversed positions". There are two types of reversal to
consider. The "BRT/BMT" reversal where the controller is
mounted on the right and the brake valve on the left. That
takes a little getting used to. It's easier on the BU elevated
cars because the controller is a flop-over type and doesn't feel
anything like the brake valve.
The other reversal is when the brake valve itself is backwards.
Normally, clockwise releases. On one or two properties in the US,
the brake valves were set up so that counterclockwise releases.
New Jersey Public Service is one that comes to mind. That's really
dangerous because in a panic situation, you tend to move the
handle the wrong way.
You're not kidding! I can empathize with trolley museum personnel who have to learn how to operate various pieces of equipment with different braking systems. If there was ever a need for standardization, that was the biggest area. I had a chance to operate one of the Connecticut open air streetcars at Shore Line in August of 1980. While there was no deadman's feature to worry about, the brake valve took some practice. The museum member kept referring to "taking a bite of air", then letting up, then taking another bite of air.
Speaking of BMT-style reverse positions, I wonder if there were any related accidents when the R-16s arrived, followed by the R-27s. Stuff like throwing a train into emergency stop when expecting it to accelerate and having it pick up speed when expecting it to slow down.
<<< Speaking of BMT-style reverse positions, I wonder if there were any related accidents when the R-16s arrived, followed by the R-27s. Stuff like throwing a
train into emergency stop when expecting it to accelerate and having it pick up speed when expecting it to slow down. >>>
Well, those two mistakes aren't likely to happen. For the most part (except for the example Jeff H brought up before), a rule of thumb that usually works is that rotatings things clockwise makes you go faster, while rotating them counter-clockwise makes you go slower.
This more-or-less applies universally. So, in the case of the BMT control reversal, if you're trying to stop, and you got confused between the controller and brake handles, you'd just end up putting the controller in coast. Conversely, if you were trying to accelerate, you'd end up putting the brake handle into release.
The cars with brake handles which operate backwards are another story entirely!
The Gibbs car brakes quickly with an air reduction. I don't think we use the electric brake at all.
That's correct Gerry... I've run the Gibbs car a dozen times or so in the last ten years (twice out the main line as I recall); the rest for shifting in yards or trolley parades. It's only pneumatic brake, and a five pound reduction is all you need for a STOP. Unfortunately, mechanical problems with the control group and one of the brake stands has resulted in a STOP AND STAY.
I have a vague recollection that in the early 1950's the 4th Avenue Local on the BMT had R-1's, etc., in use, and that the line was identified on the roll signs as #22. Does anyone have any information on this facet of 4th Avenue local history?
R-1's were used on the #2 4 Avenue Local from 1949-1955. I don't know about the #22 but they would have caried signs for BMT Rt #2.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I recollect that, even though the BMT designated the 4th Avenue Line as #2, the R-1 roll signs listed the 4th Avenue Local as #22, carrying forward the then IND policy of using single letters for expresses (e.g., the A and D) and double letters for locals (e.g., the AA, BB and CC). When the R-27/30's arrived on the BMT, that single letter/double letter practice continued. For example, the West End Express was T and the West End Local was TT. The only slight modification was to the Brighton Locals. It was QB if it went over the bridge and QT if it used the tunnel; the Brighton Express was just plain Q.
Redbird R-33 is right about the R-1 signs on the Fourth Avenue Local. They only read "2 4th Avenue," with the '4th Avenue' under a large '2.' And there were no numbers on the side signs. The only double number in the BMT numbering system would have been '11 Myrtle,' but route numbers were never carried on the BUs or Qs on Myrtle Avenue.
Other BMT routes with possible locals and expresses didn't make any distinction in numbers (1, 3, 7, 10, 15, and 16 were the all-time local/express routes with numbers either on the ends or both ends and sides--and no number distinctions between local and express).
The BMT numbers (1 through 16) were assigned (or approved) by the State's Public Service Commission around 1925 and the IND lettering system didn't come into use until the IND opened in the 1930s. Does anyone know if the City ever got PSC approval for the IND letters? I know they refused to ask the State to approve the IRT numbers in 1948.
The IND single/double letter system made a lot of sense, but the TA seems to have decided that getting rid of the distinction would help people forget all of the express services cut. (Either that or the limo-riding transit execs thought that subway riders were too stupid to understand the difference between one and two letters.)
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed: You might know the answer to something that has puzzled me for a long time. When the R-1's were first delivered they were tested on the Sea Beach Line and I have a picture of R-1 381 at Coney Is with a #4 in the front destination sign. Where did they get the roll sign from? Were they borrowed from the D's or made up ad-hoc for the testing period? I don't think the IND cars then would have been equipped with roll sign readings for both IND and BMT but I could be wrong.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,RedbirdR33, raises an interesting question about signage that I've thought about a little bit over the years. I can't put my hand on a picture of the R-1 train on the Sea Beach when the R-1s were being tested, but as I recall only the number appeared in the route window, which makes me think that a Triplex sign might have been used in the R-1.
IND signs had a major route name under the letter; no pre-war BMT car with number signs used anything other than the number. (R-11s had route names under the number on the end signs, but no number on the sides--that didn't come in until the R-16s.) The R-1s on the Fourth Avenue had the route name under the number on the car ends, but not on the side signs.
The Coney Island shops had the capability to make signs and probably still can; it is possible that special signs were made up just for the R-1 testing, with only a '4' on the sign curtain. All that would be necessary would be to color the material, maybe trim it a bit, and attach it to the proper-sized roller. I have a mid-1950s "7-Flushing, Special, No Passengers" end sign that was given to me during a visit to Coney Island shops back then. It had been made right there and only had the three designations I mentioned.
I wish they'd get out the old patterns to make signs at least for the 6000s in the Museum collection. They look terrible without their signs.
Anybody know for sure?
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
There are photos of R-1s with #4 signs in the front route slot when they ran tests on the Sea Beach line. There was no route name beneath the numeral. Their side signs followed the BMT practice of placing the southern terminal on top, with the northern terminal beneath; hence, the side arrangement would read, from top to bottom, Coney Island/Times Square. Unfortunately, I don't recall exactly what the route signs said, but I believe there was something like Via Bridge/Express..
The R-11s had small roofline signs as did the R-10s, R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s. The R-16s returned to the large sign box setup and did include number and route on the bottom side curtain. I can vaguely remember seeing a 15/Jamaica Local route sign on the #15 train I took on Sept. 23, 1967, and Gene Sansone's book has a side view of an R-16 signed up as a 14/Broadway-Brooklyn Local.
I could be wrong here, but I get the feeling that postwar IRT cars came equipped with Special and No Passengers signs for both route and destination bulkhead curtains. There are photos in Gotham Turnstiles of brand spanking new R-29s in E. 180th St. Yard with both end signs reading No Passengers. Those cars apparently didn't have S/Special signs the way IND/BMT cars did. Interestingly enough, the R-11s had SS signs, although when they ran on the Franklin Ave. shuttle, they usually carried #7/Franklin Ave. signs. And they still had the old #3/West End signs displayed when they ran on the B line in 1968, by which time the old BMT number code had been dropped.
Steve B. makes some good points.
Which of the standard books has pictures of the R-1s in Sea Beach service? I've seen one, with the train on old Track B (now Track 2).
I don't recall the original R-11s having 'SS' signs, but they might well have, but I didn't think 'SS' was used until the late 1960s. I'm not even sure they had both letters and numbers on the bulkhead signs. One thing unique about them was the separate divisional maps, one for the BMT and one for the IND, with a statement on each map that read something like,"When this car is operating on ---- Division, please use map at other end of car," with 'BMT' or 'IND' in the blank space. The IND map was back-lit so the usual wide red divisional map lines glowed gold to show IND lines when the R-11 operated on the IND; on the BMT, the wide yellow just stayed yellow. Probably it was an indication of the IND/BMT pecking order that still is around.
My point about the Flushing sign I got at Coney Island was simply that replacement signs were made right there and when R-12, E-14, or R-15 cars needed replacements, they didn't get the full IRT set that came when the cars were originally delivered, but only the 'Special,' 'No Passengers,' and '7 Flushing.' It was a long time before those cars were moved from Queens service to the other IRT lines where other numbers would be needed.
As I recall, R-16s had a full set of Eastern Division local and express designations for each route (10, 14, 15, 16) on the side signs.
Last point--I left out BMT '13' in an earlier post of numbers usable for both locals and expresses; the Fulton El service did have the Green Hornet, which had a number sign. (14th Street-Fulton was express only, so it wouldn't be on that list.)
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed: "A History of the New York City Subway System;Part 3;The Independent System and City Ownership" has a picture of R-1 381 with a #4 sign at Coney Is on p12. I would raise a further point. There were subsequent deployments of IND R1 and R9 to the BMT in 1949-55 and 1956-58. What signage did they use? There is another picture of R1/9's 100,381 and 1440 on the Culver Shuttle signed up #5 Culver on p37 of New York City Subway Cars by Greller, though I believe this picture dates from the early 70's.
Larry,redbirdR33
A group of R-1s were sent to the BMT in 1949 once the R-10s had all been delivered to alleviate the shortage of subway cars. They usually ran on the 4th Ave. local and, according to Ed Sachs, carried #2 signs. Most likely, they were simply fitted with BMT rollsigns, which may have been specially made. Thirty R-10s spent some time on the Eastern Division from 1954-1958 or' 59; there might have been some prewar cars still operating on the BMT, but I'm not aware of this. Fifty R-16s, 6300-6349, ran on the A line from 1956 thru 1958 and had A signs. I wonder if the R-10s could outrun them back then.
That Culver shuttle train may have been on a fantrip in 1971.
Steve: Your right about the IRT signs. Both front route and destination carried "No Passengers". The route sign carried a "Shuttle" and the destination sign carried "Thru Express" and "Super Express". I have a list of roll sign readings of most R-types from R 1 to R-38 prepared by none other than Joseph D Korman. I think I brought this list from either him or Larry Kiss at an ERA meeting over 30 years ago for 10 cents.(Yes ten cents). David if you would like I'll mail you a copy and possibly you could post it somewhere if you think people will be interested.
Larry,redbirdR33
Sure! that would be great. Can you OCR it yourself? Would be easier that way I suspect... drop me an email.
Dave: Forgive my ignorance but I guess OCR means to scan it and send via e-mail. My son has a scanner. I don't know if he has ever sent e-mail with attachments but I'll give it a try.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Well, by OCR i meant to scan and use a package like OmniPage or Textbridge to convert it immediately to a text file/Word document/HTML markup. If you don't have that kind of software better off to send/fax me the pages and I'll do the OCR here with Textbridge.
-Dave
Say, Larry, have you seen what Joe did on his website with the sign scans? It's neat. He even has a feature where both sets of side signs from an early BMT standard are on one screen, and you can scroll through each individual sign and display any combination of signs you want. Joe, if you're reading this, do you think you could do the same with an R-1/9 sign box?
Where can Joe's website be found?
The JoeKorner
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you for the info - seems like a neat site!
Steve: Thanks for the info I'll give it a look.
Larry,RedbirdR33
While the BMT/IND cars returned to the practice used in the R1-R9 of having the route letter/number on the side route sign with the delivery of the R16s, the IRT cars from R17-R36 did not. The side route signs on the IRT cars had only route names, not numbers. The numbers on these cars appeared only at the head (and tail) ends.
New side route roller curtains with route numbers for the IRT redbirds came sometime in the '80s.
That's exactly right. It wasn't until the color code was reworked in 1979, with each trunk line being designated with a single color, that number markings began to appear on side route IRT signs. The funny thing is, I never saw a plain "Flushing local" or "Flushing express" route sign on the original WF R-36 side route roller curtains. Every 7 train I ever rode on back in the 70s simply said, "Local" or "Local-exp" with arrows on either side. I do remember seeing a "World's Fair" sign on an upper destination curtain of an R-36 once after heading back to Times Square after a Mets game in the early 70s. Yes, I know the R-36s had "World's Fair" signs. No, I didn't attempt to change it.
Were there in fact any R-1/9s anywhere on the BMT during the late 50s?
Many of the IRT lines R-types didn't show full route names on their side signs in the 1950s and 1960s. They were normally signed as follows:
1: Local
2: 7th Ave. Exp.
3: 7th Ave. Exp.
4: Lexington Ave. Exp.
5: Lexington Ave. Exp.
Lex. Ave. Thru Exp.
6: Local
Local-Exp
7: Local
<-Local Exp->
<-Exp Local->
S: Shuttle (42nd St. and Bowling Green Shuttles)
> Were there in fact any R-1/9s anywhere on the BMT during the late 50s?
I do recall once seeing a train of R1s on the Fourth Ave. local line (#2) around 1958 or so, but only once.
As this string mentioned much earlier, R-1 cars were used on the 4th Avenue Local, but I believe it was in the very early 1950's. My recollection is that AB standards were back on the 4th Avenue Local by the late 1950's until the R-27/30's came along and the line became the RR.
That's right, except for the one appearence of the R1s (I guess there were probably others) that I mentioned in my previous post.
- Ed
In addition to Local <> and <> the original signs for the 7 on the R-33 and R-36WF also had SuperExp., which was the sign I think the World's Fair non-stops from Grand Central used.
Superexpress was a regular 1950s service on the Flushing Line. I don't know if the designation was ever used for World's Fair trains. I have a little newspaper clipping from the 'NY Daily News' dated 13 May 1954 announcing the addition of a fourth evening superexpress, leaving Times Square at 5:37 p.m. The clipping mentions that it would "stop only at the Queens Boulevard and Willetts Point Boulevard stations in Queens on its run to Main St., Flushing." The article also says that there were three superexpresses in the morning rush hour.
What year did the TA "improve" Flushing service by eliminating the Superexpresses? They gave a great railfan ride--the times I rode it, I seemed to have lucked out, getting the front window position.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
The #7 Flushing Super-Express started on 3/12/53 for the am rush and 9/8/53 for the pm rush.The pm rush service was discontinued on 1/13/56 and the am rush service on 12/14/56.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I can absolutely remember riding SuperExpresses out to the Fair.QBP non-stop to the Fair!!.
I wasn't saying that the old 'SuperExpress' designation wasn't revived for World's Fair use; I just didn't remember seeing it.
There were obnoxious radio and TV commericials that sang, "Part of the fun of the World's Fair / Is the subway special that takes your there." Mercifully, I have forgotten the rest of the words, if there were any. I recall complaining to the TA about the waste of taxpayers' money for advertising.
Ed Alfonsin/SUNY at Potsdam
Did the lyrics go something like this ?
Part of the fun of the World's Fair
is the Subway Special that takes you there.
There's a good-time feeling in the air
on the Subway Special to the World's Fair.
Trains are easy to catch anywhere, any time of the day.
Just pay fifteen cents: Hop Aboard !
and you're on your way.
Yes, part of the fun of the World's Fair
is the Subway Special that takes you there.
Lyrics suck, and the tune wasn't much better.
Anyone remember an Allen Sherman (Hello, Muddah !,
Hello, Faddah !) song: "J.C. Cohen" ?
J.C. Cohen, what a great conductor.
I.R.T., that's a subway line.
And if you want to travel uptown,
he's a greater conductor than Leonard Bernstein.
Well, I don't think that, in general, it is a waste of taxpayers' money for transit to advertise.
- they are letting the public know about a service, so the taxpayer can use what he paid for. There are a lot of people who do not know about transit in many places, and even in NY, many may not have known about a special service.
- advertising is done by private business because it returns more than it costs - and therefore increases profits. In this respect certainly, transit should "act like a business" and increase their revenues by advertising. This would be particularly good if it was for off rush-hour services (like the train to the Worlds Fair) that don't tax capacity.
One thing that is horrible about advertising is that the annoying jingles are to some degree always successful, since they stay in your head!!
One thing that is horrible about advertising is that the annoying jingles are to some degree always successful, since they stay in your head!!
I remember learning about this in a marketig class at NYU over 15 years ago. Anyone remember Sheraton's phone number put to a single jingle many many years ago? Or the more recent one for Southern New England Telephone (SNET) (1-800-555-5321)? Or even the famous "I'd like to teach the world to sing" Coke commercial? Most of you do. Why? Because it was scientifically proven that jingles that are put to music are retained longer than just saying them. I'd call it a limited version of BrainWashing.
--Mark
For the sake of history, these trains ran express to the fair and local back to Time Square. They stopped at:
Times Square, 5th Avenue, Grand Central, and the Fair. They ran on the center track--and at regular fare! The signs said express --> local<--- like the current diamond 7 signs.
It's been 35 years, but I'm sure I remember the roll sign having the `SuperExp.' designation.
If anyone has one of the old R-33/36WF roll signs, they would have the definitive answer.
IRT R units also had "Shuttle" spelled out on their bulkhead route signs. The R-12s which ran on the 3rd Ave. el displayed these signs.
I have a front sign, can't tell from which car series, that has just 7/Flushing, and 7/World's Fair and then blank on either side. There also was, as the first iteration of numbered side signs on the IRT, a set that had the old colors (Orange 1 & 7, Red 2, Blue 3, Purple 4, etc.).
Flushing signs had two versions: The north terminals either read:
Main St. Flushing
Willets Point
111th Street
Special
No Passengers
(World's Fair)
OR
Main St. Flushing
Willets Pt.-Corona (2 lines on the outside)
111th St.-Corona (2 lines on the outside)
Special
No Passengers
(World's Fair)
South Terminal signs were only Times Square, Special, and No Passengers
Certain versions of head signs said Main St. Super Express and Times Sq. Super Express, in addition to the plain readings.
They're probably original WF R-36 roller curtains.
The TA made the switch from double letters to all single letters because many trains would run express on one part of the route, and local on another.
The F was Express in Queens, local in Manhattan, and could be both in Brooklyn. The QB was the B'way Express in Manhattan, but local in Brooklyn. The B was local and express in Brooklyn and Manhattan. Too many exceptions to have a rule.
-Hank
I seem to remember that a sudy was commissioned by the City to investigate the revival of the Rockaway division line as an alternate to the ridiculously designed Van Wyck El proposal. Was he study ever done? Is there a result? I walked a portion of the line recently. It is overgrown but the right of way is remarkably intact, and certainly usuable according to the Connittee for Better Transt's Apple Corridor scheme. Does anyone have current information?
I seem to remember that a study was commissioned by the City to investigate the revival of the Rockaway division line as an alternate to the ridiculously designed Van Wyck El proposal. Was the study ever done? Is there a result? I walked a portion of the line recently. It is overgrown but the right of way is remarkably intact, and certainly usuable according to the Connittee for Better Transt's Apple Corridor scheme. Does anyone have current information?
A handful of homeowners in Rego Park, aided by laws which would make any such plan liable to be tied up in court for years, are enough to make it impossible.
May I suggest that you sort the prev. posts on this site by "Rockaway" or "JFK" ... You'll find a lot of discussion March 24th & before.
Mr t__:^)
Dave,
I've noticed that the SEPTA RR pctures have been gone for some time? Should I take some and send 'em in?
BTW, those NYC photos I took-in only 3 out of 20 can you even tell what it's a picture of. I have:
Photos of the Rector St(1/9) and Bowling Green station entrances and an interior shot of an R-26. I took a mess of pictures along the Broadway(N/R) line, but mostly all you can see is the lit on the front of the train.
I've heard I can get them touched up so I'll do that before I send them to you.
Also, as an idea, what do you think of tours of large station complexes( Did I see that here recently?)
For example, a tour of the Times Square complex with photos of the different areas for each line(and headlined with the neon "SUBWAY" sign on the 42nd St entrance).
Say do that for:
Broadway Junction
Atlantic Avenue/Flatbush-LIRR
Fulton St. complex
World Trade Center
Grand Central
Stilwell/Coney Island
Queens(boro)Plaza
Union Square
Borough Hall
I'd be willing to do some work with doing that.
It all sounds great! The station complex idea is good and I get asked about that a lot.
The Septa Commuter Rail pictures are offline because Septa was using them on their web site without credit or permission and Jason DeCesare (the photographer) wanted that stopped. We can add more if you want to send them in.
-Dave
Hi!
As a longtime railfan, I have always envied the operator of subway trains. What would be required to become an operator myself? Would I need to work in the transit agency to gain the seniority to operate the trains, or can you go straight into the subway as a new hire?
Thanks,
Brandon Bostian
In NYC you must have 1 Year as a one of the following job titles.
Car Cleaner,Conductor,Track Worker,Bus Operator,Staion Agent then take promotion Exam.
But rumer has it it may go Open Competitive with a College Degree Requrment.
If anyone know more feel free to comment. My son whats to follow my foot steps.
Thanks for the info! What, exactly, does the conductor do? I know on traditional trains he is in charge of passenger safety; is that the same on the subway?
He Opens and Closes the Doors and making Announcements on the train or Platform. Direct People to get to were there going. Also conductors can flagmen for a Track Gang.
Conductors can also be assigned to the Platform, signaling trains to hold them in the station or let them go as crowding permits on the paltform. They have to announce the train and to stand clear of the doors.
Conductors can be assigned duties as handswitchers to throw switches.
And it is still in the rule book I think (from the Plane to The Train days) Fare Collection (Rule 97,aa)
Like A typical Motorman.
WE ARE NOT DOORMEN!
The Conductor is in change of the train. I manage the operation of my train and maintain it's schedule. I am responsible for answering for it's lateness, and one way this is done is by controlling dwell time in stations. Transit's timetables have more time than we really need. Poor Coductors run early ( they think because they're fast, that makes them better) and get held at certain stations where there are dispatchers. That's giving your job to someone else. It also bothers the passengers, who don't understand why their train is not moving. "schedule adjustment"? What's that?
I also am responsible for passenger safety. I make it my business to know as much about my job as possible When the train breaks down, I often take care of it. When I get a rookie Motorman, I can tell him the route line-ups, and unless it's some thing I can't deal with, then I speak for my train on the radio.
Opening doors, and making announcements is what I do most frequently, BUT IT IS NOT MY MOST IMPORTANT FUNCTION!
That attitude, and the veiw that the Conductor's job is no more than a stepping stone to the Motorman's, is one reason why we get so little respect. I'M THE BOSS DAMN IT!
In the past few years we have lost the Bug jobs in the shops, the revenue collection train, the refuse collection train, the work trains (there used to be TWO conductors there, now, none) and soon the signal dolley. Our platform jobs, the TA wants to give them to the Station Agents, and they already give some of our construction flagging work to Track men. Next, yard Motormen wil throw their own switches! OPTO!
The TA's master plan is to get rid of us altogether, and TRAIN OPERATORS, with that attitude are just helping.
Open competitive Train operator jobs is just the next step. The union is fighting this, but we all know their track record.
If thats the way you toke what I said I'm sorry. But your not just a Person who opens and Closes doors. You also deal with the plublic mostly and as you said responsible for the safty of the riders.
If you say it your job to keep the train on time then Why do I have to Call Control Center on heavy ridership? I also try to help my Conductor out when problems happen on the train. Also About the Timetable what if you have a Train Operator is obaying posted speed signs. I did that and no matter how fast the Conductor got me out of the Station I still got to the Terminal 10 Minutes late. Also I feel in order to have a good train the Crew should work together not agenst each other.
Now with Ms.Bush at Van Courtlandt I go 5 MPH in the west pocket which make the East Pocket leave late. She is no long A Divisons problem she work at BWAY-Myrtle now starting with new pick. That one Dispatchor I never want to see again. She took me Out Of Service because my 17 YR old son was Rideing my train every Saturday. Case was Dismised at Laber Relations because the was No Rule Violation.
Im a VR conductor, so I get to see all the BMT and IND schedules. Most of them do contain WAY too much time over here. I can't speak for the IRT. Some lines however are written sensibly. The really bad ones are the N and the R.
There have been times, that to avoid running early, I had to cut out motors! Then again there are lines, that don't have quite enough time. The A is particularly rough going north. To complicate things more is that some lines are "padded" only in segments. The F has barely enough time in Queens, but SO much in Brooklyn.
I call in heavy ridership when I start to loose time and I can't make it up. I need to have a verifyable excuse for being late.
When I have a slow Motorman, or a quick one who follows all the speed retrictions, or a really slick guy who flies everywhere, there's a plan that I have to compensate. And I NEVER condescend, to tell a Motorman how to operate. It's my job to control the train, and if it means gapping myself, or slamming the doors as fast as they can open, well then that's the job. I put the RAPID back in Transit!
A little side story;
Last week I worked all week with a close, long time friend. We're both Union Shop Stewards. Every day on every trip, we were late in the double digits! And with, great legit excuses, too! IT'S CONTRACT TIME,BABY!
I wish I had you for as my Conductor. My policy is if something goes wrong in the front I get it. The Conductor gets the back. Or I assist. I came from the class of 1988. When we where called Motorman. Some Train Operaters who has a problem in there car and just sit there
Makes me sick. That happen at Dyckman Street on the No.1 Line. I was off duty talking to the Conductor. He said he had a hung gard Light in the 1St car. I volenteered to take care of the problem. The T/O never left the cab. Cause something in the door track.
Erik. Thanks for the great posts.
Although I'm not a TA person, I certainly respect the job of the Conductor. Most 'lay persons' only think that Conductors open and close the doors and that's it. But, god forbid, if their is some kind of emergency aboard the train or on the tracks -- guess who J.Q. Public is gonna call -- you guessed it, the Conductor. If their only job WAS opening and closing doors then the job title would read "TA Doormen" simply enough.
And just for the record, I'm a Union Rep over in my office. GIVE'EM HELL!
Doug aka BMTman
A conductor is not authorized to cut out motors.
I know that, but hey, gottta do, what ya gotta do....
I call it : "Tampering with the equipment". Maybe you should become a motorman. Maybe you know all there is as far a being a conductor is concerned, and now you need something a little more challenging. But we are not allowed to make up ort own rules. Eventually, he who does that shall get burned at one time or another.
Hey Dave, can you find out if she's going there on the A.M or P.M?
Probably PM'S She never went AM's
Uh OH!!!!!!!!!!
Iv been following some of the rediculous posting and offer some advice. I have my share of B/O supervision and also have been taken out of service for non rule violations too but may I ask why are you bragging about how fast your trains are? If you were following ALL speed limits including those "50 MPH tubes" that really state 40 then you wouldn't be doing 3 trips on that Pelham Line. Time and time again I hear fellows complain on the radio at terminals about congestion when you aren't even due there yet. It is abvious this dispatcher has time to kill because you run her railroad for her. A late train or TT report doesn't kill the folks at command center either.
It wasn't me that posted anything about running times and speed limits.
it wasn't intended at Mike but there are some who prefer using dispatcher's names on this site where it does nobody any good and may cause harm from "defamation of character". However my response was to point out that if you want the job done right you must do it your self. Following rules is one way because this dispatcher won't be welcomed by the line supt if crews are constantly late; BTW in the past lines have gotten rid of superintendants by mass rulebook vigorance. Last point if your dispatcher violates your rights as a worker file a grievance or write him/her up but keep it off this site as you will ultimately do damage to yourself.
I'm glad I'll be on the IND so I won't have to deal with her.
I had the honor to meet the NYC Operator, Conductor national Roedeo team at the APTA annual meeting in Chicago in 1997. They were a team and a credit to the profesion. Everyone who works in tranit has a lot of responsibility and not many of them get any recognition for doing a great job. When there are problems everyone hears about it. I love to ride a train where the crew has their act together. The train runs smoothly and the I can hear in the conductors voice when they are having a good day and everything is running smoothly. Operating a train is truely a finesse job, and you can allways tell when it's being done right.
Yes when a when the crew works together it is a good ride. You can learn alot at a roedeo. Me I alway work with my Conductor as long he/she works with me. Also this makes the riders feel better. You get a good ride. I as a T/O I feel at rest when working with a good conductor. Ofcause the Conductor feels at rest when they have a Good T/O.
It's always refreshing to me to see someone who takes the job seriously. It seems to me that you haven't been working with some good motormen. Lot's of resentment. Yes, you must take every precaution for the safety of your trains and passengers. The motorman must take every precaution for the safety of their trains and passengers. When a train is in motionthe responsibility for safe running rests entirely upon the train operator(motorman). These come from rules 97c and 98b. One thing that needs work on around here is teamwork. There are plenty of motormen who appreciate and respect the good conductor.
One other thing that needs to be addressed is that most of the jobs you mentioned as having been eliminated were somewhat superfluous. Bug men are now car equipment. Why do you need a conductor on the work trains? Superintendents and such see that the jobs are not entirely a full eight hour job. It's just like the rest of corporate America with downsizing. Just heap the work on someone else.
One thing I must say is that every operating employee (C/R, T/O, T/W/O, ATD, TD and TSS) needs to stay for their full eight hours. One reason that conductors do not (well, very rarely) go to the yard for put-ins is that many of them would show up with just enough time to go out on their train as it was ready to leave the track. Why pay the conductor when the motorman is doing all the work. In addition, i'm all for giving people quits, we work hard and sometimes we don't want to hang around for WAA, but the managers see this and supervisors (that are very ambitious to become managers) will remember this and remember where they can cut time on jobs (and make themselves look good). Do not give the TA any reason for cutting jobs. This goes for us supervisors as well.
So then how about getting all the WAA time in the middle of the job? Nothing's worse than working at Van Cortlandt on the weekend with two back-to back, 35 minute lunch, a third trip and then 1.5 hours of WAA.
If you don't like it then Don't pick it!
Those are the kind of (heavy WAA) jobs we are trying to preserve. Would you rather do five, like the poor slobs at Main St.
What is WAA mean?
Work as assigned. You have to be on the property in case the dispatcher needs you to take a train to the yard, get one from the yard,change signs,jump ahead on another interval. If you have WAA on the end of a job,you may have to do an extra trip if somebody doesn't show up.
Here in Boston, WAA is refered to as RAD = Run As Directed. Just another one of those hero=sub=hoagie=grinder things, I guess!
I'm Lucky with my 2 Jobs at Van Courtlandt. My weekday jobs has WAA between the first 2 trips and WAA with Lunch. Saturday all WAA with Lunch. But this pick most jobs have little Lunch and 40 Minute WAA at end. Thats why I left for the Weekends for the 2 Line.
You are right about us being our own worst enemy, sometimes. We shouldn't give them any excuses to cut jobs. You give those bloodsuckers the excuse and they always will cut. The mantra over at 370 is " We must save money. We must save money. We must save money. We must SAVE MONEY!" C'mon, do you really think 'They're SERIOUS about safety"?
Yeah, I can see your point about the old BMT bugging jobs, but as for the work trains I don't agree.
A Conductor makes LESS than a Motorman! Flagging the work train while it's being shoved is a Conductors job! Damnit! So that's where I draw the conclusion, (and other places too) that the TA's "Final Solution" is to eliminate my job altogether.
BTW I worked with the Transit Authority's BEST Motorman last week. Read my first post in this thread for more details.
Thats why all of us should follow the Rulebook. If we all did that they would have to add trains. But when only one crew follows it your Co-Worker say your doing a Slowdown.
You seem to have a big ego about this. I don't think you mentioned the word "Crew", synominous with "Team." You seem to be rather bossy. You seem to imply you are "better" than your motorman no matter how good he really is. The motorman has a stake in maintaining the schedule just as much as the conductor. You may be the boss as you say, but the motorman is "The Captain of the Ship."
WRONG!
I am Catain Of the shp. The motorman is just the Helmsman.
I can't help feeling the way I do. I have railroad experience, and comparing the level of training and proffesionalism here to over there.....
I NEVER had to hold one of my crew's hand on the job because our employer was too damn cheap to train him properly. I do believe in team work though, don't get me wrong.
I apologize if I come off as arrogant, I can't help it, after 13 years in this business, and having worked on or for every major carrier in the tri state area, I feel I "paid my dues" I know a lot, And I suffered some too. I have little patience for someone who calls themself a professional, and really is not. Unfortunately, I have forgotten more than most of my co-workers even know.
You better not ever work with me! If that ever happened, I may get fed up with conductors and pick OPTO.
I will not try to change your view. I was a conductor from 11/79 to 2/81, and have been a motorman ever since. I know my job. I have never been written up and have never had any "days in the street". No motor instructor has ever verbally chewed me out about anything. I have a good reputation with my fellow motormen, conductors & supervisors. Maybe you've had lots of experiences with poor motormen, but I can assure you I've had great days with virtually all my conductors. Yes, veterans & rookies. None of them has complained about MY operation. I have calmed down many a new, inexperienced conductor. One in particular this week. I don't know if you and I will ever work together, but if we do I can assure you, you won't have to worry about my doing something dumb which would get you angry. Because if I screw up, my family suffers. Just click on my E-Mail address and Glenn6398 will tell you what my name is.
Was stuck for almost a half hour on a southbound Slant R-40 this evening just south of the New Lots station. Seems that the signal, P1/65 had the trip arm in the down (green) position while the signal lights itself stayed red! Is this a common problem on older, outside lines where the weather can play a factor in malfunctioning equipment?
The motorman reported the problem to Canarsie Tower -- he opened the front stormdoor, when down to the roadbed to examine the arm and came back in after a few minutes. The tower OKed him to 'key past' the signal, which he did.
One of the first times I've witnessed a malfunctioning signal on the NYCT system. But I did enjoy the wait since I was aboard one of the excellent rebuilt slant R-40s.
Doug aka BMTman
I wonder if it was one of my personal favorites you were in: #4412-13, #4398-99, #4418-9, #4436-37 or #4444-45. Sumitomo did a nice job on preserving my favorite toys.
Seriously, anything can happen. That stretch is on an enbankment or a low elevated there. Could have been a mechanical problem with the device that keeps the trip arm elevated; i.e. the arm may have raised and then just flopped back down. Sounds like the crew did the right thing there.
Wayne /mrSlantR40\
wayne, you're probably right about the trip arm. That stretch of track is the descent from the embankment of New Lots onto the grade level ROW into E. 105th. I couldn't imagine any other explanation, although the signal and it's mechanics certainly looked old and rusty from exposure to the elements.
There was a total signal failure in the Dekalb area a month an half ago. All signals went Danger with Trip Arms up from Court Street through just after 7th Ave (I switched at Dekalb). All trains had to call command at each signal for keyby. Not a second between keying on the radio that night, it took over an hour to go from Whitehall to 7th Ave (and I made the connection without wait from the Ferry and the R to D). It was an intresting trip that night.
Actually, as it turned out, the T/O ran the home signal. Said sun glare obstructed his view.....The signal checked out fine
Automatic signals on the NYCTS have a "cycle check" feature that
detects faulty trip arms. Without going into a lengthy circuit
description, if the signal is at danger (there's a train ahead)
and the trip arm fails to come up, the signal continues to display
RED even after the train has passed into the clear. This way the
following train sees the false red signal and reports it and gets
the trip arm fixed, rather than having what is called a "hidden
failure mode" where the arm would be stuck down leaving no protection.
There is a feature designed in the H circuit called cycle checking the stop. If a tripper is frozen in the clear position or the hold down hook on over the train stop arm then the signal will not reclear to clear. This cycle checking is a safety feature. Before a signal can clear, the stop must return to the tripping position before a request is given to drive the stop to the clear position and clear the signal to yellow or green. This is most likely what happened on the Canarsie Line.
Cycling checking on the Pelham Line also prevents the preceding signal from clearing. This is a new safety feature for NYCT.
By the way, P1-65 is actually P1-65X22. If you know how signals are identified, then you should have some idea about what really happened.
OK, this is interlocking signal identified by lever 22. Probably a Home Signal, could be an approach signal. Was trip in the tripping position with the signal red when the train operator ran the red or was a Call-On route established?
Need more details Steve to analyse.
Trip arm was in the down (passing) position throughout the incident.
This is a Home or Approach Signal and was a Call-On route used (red over red over yellow aspect).
According to the 'official' document, there was a train in the 105th St. station at the time of the incident (according to the tower operator). The signal was reportedly found to be operating as intended. The T/O stated that he was blinded by the sun. He also said that he found a garbage bag under his train.
What do you think happened?
I was down in DC last October and had a chance to ride the Capitol Subway. There are three routes the two oldest being the Senate-Russell Building and the House-Rayburn Building. They use what appears to be a single (golf cart type) vehicle that runs off an overhead power supply. The newest route runs between the Senate and Dirksen Bldg with a stop at the Hart Office Bldg. It uses two three car trains running on a narrow guage two rail system.
Would any of the good folks in DC have more info regarding when these lines were openned,builders and the kind of power supply they use?.
Thanks in advance,Larry,redbirdR33
I'd love to check this out someday. Maybe I'll write my senator for information and brownnose my way down there. Or is it open to the public?
-Dave
I have ridden the systems and they are interesting. The Senate recently upgraded their system to a higher tech system. The House side still has operators to run them. They are open to the public and the interesting thing is they are two separate systems. You have to go upstairs into the Capital to transfer from the House to the Senate.
Looks a lot like the old private companies in NYC with no interline transfers.
It is, to my knowledge, open to the public. I have a few pictures of it, if you'd like me to upload.
Sure, that would be great! You can just email them. Maybe we can put them in a little page of the existing Washington stuff...
The Capital Subway is open to the public, you can sit right next to your elected offical, EXCEPT when there is a Vote. Then it is Congress Person's Only (there is a bell that rings when a vote is called) and you must have your pin on your lappel (except if your famous).
Dave: The Capitol Subway is free and runs on weekdays from about 6a-6p and Sat 6a-2p. (Check for exact times). When I was there my friend and I entered through the Russell Office Building passed a metal detector and went downstairs to the subway. We completely bypassed the crowd waiting for the tour of the Capitol. If you ride the newer subway from the Senate to the Long Building the tunnel is lined with placques representing each state of the union in alphabetical order.
Well worth the trip.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The subway on the Senate side has been there for at least the last 45 years. I rode the one on the House side going to the Capitol from the Longworth Building for the first time a couple of years ago.
And so long as the Senators and House members use it, it's going to be free.
When will the Fantasy map be available to download?
Relax guy. I'm sure Michael and Wayne are working on it as fast as time allows them between their other responsibilities. I'll post it to the site when they deliver it.
-Dave
My bad. It just seems that it would have been done by las night. People talking about three day weekend and so forth. Like I said, sorry for the rush...
<3TrainMike wrote:>
>>>My bad. It just seems that it would have been done by las night. People talking about three day weekend and so forth. Like I said, sorry for the rush...<<<
Mike,
I get 3 day weekend off every 5 weeks, the only time I can update/create maps is usually done on Thurs/Fri/Sat nights...during the day I get to spend time with my 2 little boys and my wife, if there's nothing for me to do..then I could do the maps :o)
We're done with rush hours and I should be able to finish it this weekend for 4 other maps (midday, evening, weekend and nights) Rush hour map is the most time-consuming project as I had to move some lines and try to find a better spot for new lines or whatever. The other 4 maps should be easy to adjust for Fantasy part.
Cheers,
Michael Adler
US Postal Service, City Letter Carrier in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
Rome wasn't built in a day, otherwise Mike would have used its contractors to do the maps.
Be patient, and you will be rewarded.
Ok, Steve posted this - I'll take a stab at it -
/*
For the LIRR experts in our group, these questions;
1) What is the designation of the new Bi-Level coaches 4000 and 5000 series.
2) What are the designations for the 2700s, 2800s and 2900s which are being retired.
3) On the 5000 series cars, on the brake control there is a "LAP" position and a "Hold" position. Lap is obvious but what is "hold" and when is it used.
*/ <- man, my days of playing with Mac C programming still haunt me...
#1 I believe one of them is C-3 but I'm not sure if both are.
#2 Ok - you want the as delivered ones? MP-75, MP-72 and P-75 plus the little letters at the end that designated trailer, power trailer, control trailer, cab signal, etc. At least a few were electrics. I believe the 75's used the old MP-54 style controller (much like what NJT Arrows have), and the Zips used the more traditional type. Actually, the Zips are awfully close to the ACMU in design. Speaking of which - did any of that old stuff have door closeing bells, like the M-1s do?
#3 my guess would be to hold the train at a station stop, or at a terminal. I'm no brakeing expert.
For the over curious people out there - a pic of my new bike (harley) can be found here
And some misc collcted pics of subways, my (hugable) kitty cat, and whatver else is on the Vax but not sorted... can be found here
Including the Low V trip from last year (was a work in progress on my web page), and Sea Cliff station. There's a double decker at glen head for the few who haven't seen them yet...
re: your LoVUnderGround.JPG file ... so that's what I look like :)
--Mark
I don't keep up with the rail fan info, so I can't answer the other questions, but I can answer the Air brake Question.
Electric holding in the valve itself is the same as release. Main resivoir air, regulated to the proper maximum brake pipe pressure, is allowed to charge the equalzing resivoir, and thereby the brake pipe. The two follow each other, or more exactly, EQ air controls BP air.
Electric holding is a switch attached to the valve that closes when the handle is in the "HOLD" position of release. The air brake system will realease as normal. BUT there is a solenoid valve attached to each cars brake cylinder release port, which remains CLOSED in holding. Thus, the brakes are retained.
This only important to cars that use a "direct release " brake system. That means that the brakes can be gradually applied, but not realeased. There is only Full Realease.
So an important feature for passenger equipment, using direct release,is electric assist, or EP. This helps for faster smoother stops.
To graduate off the brakes, an Engineer, or Motorman would move the handle back and forth between the Hold and release positions on the brake valve to control how much he would release.
This system is mostly in use today on commuter coaches. MU cars that still have brake valves, use a graduated realase system that operates closely like an ME43 valve, in that it's self lapping.
For the motorcycle enthusiasts here check out this site.
www.geocities.com/baja/mesa/9449
Phil & Any other 2 wheel enthusiasts from LI: We'll be at the Blue Dawn Diner on Vets Highway in Islandia on Sunday 4/11 at 10 AM for our annual shakdown run. As you can see we even let harley owners ride with us. We're looking for a few good members.....
Dave, last post on two wheels, promise
Hey steve - no more 2 wheel posts? Does that include anything on Talgos too? :)
Ok, to clarify that - a single Talgo car has only a single axle at one end - thus two wheels (they are articulated and thus share trucks). This leads to a mildly interesting question though. Actually a few. First, does the first car have a single axel up front too? Are talgos bidirectional - ie, can they opperate push pull? And, what I've wondered the most - why didn't Amtrak get Talgos for the NEC? I know they've tried them elsewhere, but it seems the high-speed-in-turn capeability, and passive tilt would make the a natural for the NEC. I believe the New Haven tested them, but I don't know much about that...
End Talgo cars do have two axles. Some Talgos do operate push-pull in Spain (I think). The New Haven did test them but never bought any (one of the many lame-brained things they did, along with planning to scrap the wires east of Stamford and building the New York, Westchester, and Boston interurban line). Amtrak also tested Talgo cars pulled by a VIA LRC locomotive between Boston and New York. That may have led to the decision to have tilting trains on the NEC.
As for the Talgo not being the train of choice, that is due to the fact that most Amtrak stations in the Corridor have high platforms. Talgo carbodies are lower to the ground than standard American passenger cars are. So the floors of the Talgos would not match with the platforms. Maybe Amtrak can use Talgos on its new Portland, ME-Boston service that is scheduled to begin next summer (God willing!)
> (one of the many lame-brained things they did, along with
> planning to scrap the wires east of Stamford and building
> the New York, Westchester, and Boston interurban line).
The lame-brained thing was ABANDONING the NYW&B, at least the branch to White Plains. This corridor could use the additional capacity. It would have probably worked best if the trains had run to Grand Central or Penn Station. The line did connect to the New Haven (now Amtrak only) main lines in the southern Bronx which would have allowed access to Penn Station via Hell Gate. With all the talk that it would be nice to have the option of Metro North to Penn Station this would have been the perfect solution.
-Dave
Yes, that is so true! Honestly, I wanted to see the NYW&B have a Manhattan terminal (I own a copy of the NYW&B book by Roger Arcarra). It would have been a smashing success if it had gone to Penn or Grand Central, which made reading about this line even more sad. It's a shame that they built this railroad to such heavy-duty standards and it never stood a chance because of its lack of direct aceess to Midtown Manhattan, which could have been easily remedied. Was direct access to Manhattan considered early on in the days of the NYW&B? What about New Haven commuter service to Penn Station? What stopped these things from happening?
Talgos don't have to be as low as the Spanish units that were tested in the Pacific Northwest. Most Spanish stations are still low platform arrangements, hence the low floor approach works better for the home market. Low floor cars have made great strides in the past few years, but they're still not as comfortable as a more conventional height car, partially because of suspension differences (remember the infamous Aerotrain?) but also because of the rider's visual horizon. A brief automotive comparison: my wife's Mustang has a harsh suspension and is low to the ground, kind of like the Aerotrain. My older son's Thunderbird is more like the modern low-floor railcars - better suspension but still a lousy view. My younger daughter's Sable has a nice, comfortable ride, with a reasonable view, kind of like a standard passenger car. My Windstar has a very nice view, which consequently makes the ride feel more comfortable, even though it's built on the same chassis as the Sable - like a Viewliner. And my older daughter's Mazda MPV, despite the same ride height as my Windstar, rides like the truck that it is under the skin - sort of like a freight car on rough track.
Hope this helps explain some of the differences.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmmmm...I've never seen a high-floor Talgo. But if they exist, then I don't see why Amtrak never considered them for the NEC either. Talgos look to be about the same height as Greyhound buses are. So I guess then they could have high floors. I'd like to see what a high-floor Talgo looks like.
There are some that have been constructed with higher floors than the Spanish units, although I don't believe they are as high as what we would consider standard platform height. Some European high-speed trains have been built with one truck under the junction between two cars, similar in principle to the Talgo - the Eurostar (Channel tunnel) comes to mind, and I think there are others. These trains, I believe, are what we would consider as standard height - correct me if I'm wrong.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At this time, there is a track fire in the 60st tunnel, (Tracks G1 and G2) and FDNY has been waiting (about 15 mins now) for confirmation of power-off in the tunnel.
-Hank
And boy wasn't it fun until about 13:35 when full service was finally restored! I was working the 7 today and it never ceases to amaze me how well people listen to "There is NO N train service. For Manhattan, please stay on this train." said three times between 33rd St and QBP and once in the station before I opened the doors.
I was elated when service was resumed as I was approaching 52nd St on my last trip.
I only have two of the three 1997 Yankee/Mets MetroCards, so I decided to plunk down the $42 to get this years set of four. Me & my bus nut friend up stairs haven't decided about taking them out of the plastic yet, for those sitting on the fence:
- $4 Fun Pass = schedule of home games, no photos
- $6 value card = close up of home & away uniform colors, i.e. no player photos
- $15 value card, w/1 free ride = shot of team running onto the field with stats of from last year
- $17 unlim weekly = photos of Tino Martinez, El Duque, Scott Brosius, and Andy Pettitte
P.S. Looks like George got Modell's & Addas to pay the cost of producing these cards.
Happy collecting, Mr t__:^)
Well it finally happened. I was on the E train this morning at 42nd And Eight Avenue and the conductor announced the other trains that we could transfer to including the "S". That's the first time I ever heard anyone actually call the Shuttle that, although that is it's designated name.
Well at least it woke me up.
There are actually two "S" trains you can change for there - the IRT 42nd St. shuttle from Times Square to Grand Central, and the BMT "S" shuttle from 34th St.-Broadway to 21st St.-Queensbridge. I suspect the latter is what the conductor had in mind.
What does the Rockaway Shuttle use?? An "S"??
There is the Franklin Ave shuttle too but right now service is via the FS Shuttle Bus at street level.
Yes, Rockaway uses that too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That makes sense. Thanks.
Last week I noticed that tracks had been connected on the Coney Island bound side of the Canal Street Broadway station. Does this mean that they are going to complete repairs to this station and restore Broadway Express service in short order???
Just laying the tracks to bring work trains into the station since the tracks in the station are torn up. Service is still scheduled to resume and the north side tracks shut down after the summer.
That's heartening news. Is work resuming on the platform finishes too? Right now the place is so nasty, even the rats are avoiding it.
Wasn't this the place where there was a really bad smell and the MTA had to bring in an army of station cleaners to clean up all of the junk in the track bed and in the adjoining tunnel?
Right now the place is so nasty, even the rats are avoiding it.
... and you call that a bad thing? :)
--Mark
How long a shutdown are they planning for the north tracks?
The loss of the south tracks only resulted in a reroute of the N to the Tunnel and the Q to Sixth Av. plus a loss of Broadway Express Service.
The big problem here is that there is no alternate connecting route for Sixth Av. as there is for Broadway - and you can't undo Chrystie St. Losing the North Tracks cuts the B and D in half, messes up Sixth Av. service, and overloads!!! Broadway.
Interestingly, the Directors Office at Seashore is decorated with a huge NYC subway map, showing service with the North Tracks Closed!
Now if those oft floated idea to connect Dekalb Av Sta to the Rutgers Tunnel or the Nassau Line to Chrystie St. had been implemented, such a diversion would be far less annoying!
Why can't the Chrystie Street connection be undone, at least temporarily? Were there grade changes or just track removal?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There were no grade changes at the bridge when the Chrystie St. connection opened, just track reconfiguration and realignment. If you were to put in a diverging set of tracks from the south side to Chrystie St., they would diverge at the same grade as the tracks leading to the Canal St. bridge station, similar to what 3 trains do at Lenox Ave. and M trains where they turn off Broadway at Myrtle Ave.
A DeKalb-to-Rutgers tunnel connection would sure come in handy.
Well if that's possible, a Chrystie Street connection won't be necessary.
Can't do it, because of the street and the lower deck of the bridge.
DeKalb to Rutgers will probably begin construction in a year or so, after the state condemns the Manhattan Bridge.
-Hank
How long do you suppose it would take to build that connection?
>>DeKalb to Rutgers will probably begin construction in a year or so, after the state condemns the Manhattan Bridge.
Er...is that your natural pessimism talking, Hank, or is there some kind of inquiry afoot?
(DeKalb to Rutgers)
First of all, there is nothing but talk with regard to any infrastructure improvements for the city. Second, Dekalb to Rutgers cannot replace the bridge. Not only would all 6th Avenue trains have to make extra local stops as far as Bwy/Nassau, but the number of trains on the BMT southern division would have to fall significantly.
I would argue (if given a chance) that DeKalb to Rutgers and Nassau Loop to Grand Street connections should be built to remove traffic on the bridge during off-peak hours. Hopefully, this would reduce wear and tear enough to keep the bridge alive. If you wanted to replace the bridge, I'd argue that you'd need more connections -- to eliminate dwell time -- or a new tunnel. Moving two tracks to the center is another possibility for rush hours, although I think the trackways would make poor roadways because of height limits -- true?.
Dont you mean Bway/Lafayette?
Yes I do. Hard to keep all those Broadways straight.
Hey, wait a minute. Since when is the service set to change this year? I keep hearing another two years!
I wonder if anyone could point me in the right direction or answer this question. I want to know when the LIRR started moving their trains from ground level to elevated tracks. Also, why are they still on the ground in some areas? Were some tracks always elevated? I'm particularly interested in the Babylon line. Thanks for any help.
Major reason GRADE CROSSINGS!!! Elevate the line and you get rid of all those accidents waiting to happen. It is cheaper to elevate each crossing? I don't know... I personaly don't know the history of the LIRR, just learning it so there could be another reason....
When the LIRR electrified the Ronkonkoma line in the 1980s, it was kept at grade level with many crossings. I presume that cost was the reason why it wasn't elevated like the Babylon line.
The Babylon branch runs extremely close to Sunrise Highway through Nassau County. Until the last crossings were eliminated (Merrick-Bellmore 1976; Seaford 1973; Massapequa Park 1980), there were horrendous back ups into Sunrise Highway whenever the gates went down.
The Ronkonkoma branch also has streets running closely parallel with many crossings through Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip. The LIRR probably figured, "Hey, we're giving them electric service; they expect us to raise the tracks too? Too expensive!"
[The Babylon branch runs extremely close to Sunrise Highway through Nassau County. Until the last crossings were eliminated (Merrick-Bellmore 1976; Seaford 1973; Massapequa Park 1980), there were horrendous back ups into Sunrise Highway whenever the gates went down.
The Ronkonkoma branch also has streets running closely parallel with many crossings through Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip. The LIRR probably figured, "Hey, we're giving them electric service; they expect us to raise the tracks too? Too expensive!"]
There _could_ be a somewhat cynical explanation of this different treatment. Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip are poor, minority communities, whose residents by and large lack the economic and political clout of the residents along most parts of the Babylon line. LIRR management might have figured that neighborhood opposition would be less of a factor with the Ronkonkoma line and therefore decided to save the cost of elevating it. [Interesting aside: in NYC, it is the poor, minority communities that have the *most* clout, thanks IMO to their allies on the Upper West Side. Hence the reprieve for the Franklin Avenue shuttle. But I digress ...]
At any rate, I suspect that the cynical explanation is not the correct one. I agree with you, that the proximity of the Babylon line to the Sunrise Highway most likely was what counted.
(Why Babalyon Line grade raised). Isn't that the most heavily used line, in the most densely populated area?
[(Why Babylon Line grade raised). Isn't that the most heavily used line, in the most densely populated area?]
Trains on the Babylon line are quite crowded, but they're not as bad as those hideous Kosovo-refugee trains on the Ronkonkoma line. Babylon trains do indeed run through a more densely populated area. The difference is that they mostly draw ridership from neighboring communities, while Ronkonkoma attracts riders from many miles away. Hence all the extra capacity on Pt. Jefferson and Montauk lines.
As an aside, it seems to me that improvements such as grade separations should be paid for with _highway_ funds, not transit funds. By and large, the highway user benefits, by increased safety and losing the waits. Yes, it saves the RR liability and maintenence costs (do the savings on signal maintenance outweigh the new cost of structure maintenance?) but the primary beneficiaries are in the cars.
Wasn't the whole Babylon Branch grade seperation paid for by state funds. The money may have been taken from highway funds.
BTW, I agree. The federal/state highway pool can absorb the amounts of money needed to construct meaningful and needed grade seperation. The problem is there is NOBODY lobbying for such projects.
Jim K.
Chicago
Grade crossings with automobiles, pedestrians and 80 MPH trains running on close headways just don't mix well.
The LIRR saw the need early to elevate the branch from Valley Stream to Babylon. In the early 1950's, during the elevation construction of the section at Rockville Center, the LIRR experienced the second of two very deadly train wrecks.
With the planned introduction of HIGH SPEED electrified trains the LIRR felt it was important to grade seperate the trains, build new stations, and install new signalling. I remember riding out to Babylon while construction was going on for the Massapequa/Mass Park area. It was a mess, with trains operating on shoo-flys, temporary wooden platform stations and confusion.
How many lives do you think have been spared due to the fact that the trains no longer run at grade?
BTW, is the Mineola seperation finished yet?
JimK
Chicago
<<>>
You couldn't be more correct. If I remember correctly, the Unqua Road grade crossing in Massapequa probably took at least one life each year during the 70's. I think Unqua approached the tracks and Sunrise Highway on a diagonal and the tracks were very close to Sunrise at that point.
Chuck
Jennifer,
There is someone who posts here occasionally who maintains an LIRR History website. Unfortunately, I don't have the URL saved (and I'm kicking myself). He has an interesting history of the stations on many of the lines.
Perhaps one of the regulars here remembers it?
Chuck
It's in our NYC Transit Links page.
-Dave
try www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/lirr.html
you should find what you need there or at least get pointed in the right direction.
This past Friday, with schools and my office closed, I had the rare opportunity to take my three-year-old son on the world-renowned Q train. He'd gotten hooked on standing at the front window on the Slant-40 even since we stumbled onto one on the N (running on the West End EXPRESS tracks, no less; love that weekend track work!). Since it's hard to get a Slant on the L or N on weekends on purpose and it's murder to hold a forty-pound kid up the front window of any R26 through 42, I knew this would be a great opportunity.
We drove from Queens to Sheepshead Bay and got a parking space within a block of the station. Everything went fine as he 'drove' the train and we both reveled in the speed. This ended at Newkirk Avenue when an extremely loud, abusive Bible-thumper boarded and began threatening everyone with eternal damnation unless they immediately repented. I figured she would get off or move to another car at Church (ouch!) Avenue. But NOOOOO! She stayed in our car getting ever louder to the point where my son was BEGGING to get off. (Of course, there were a few passengers who were telling her to shut up or get off, which only added fuel to the fire)
Because of this, my son couldn't enjoy the approach to DeKalb (he loves curves and switches) or the Bridge. I had to take him off at Grand Street before he starting crying and set this lady- er, female being- off further. We reversed direction on a B back to Coney, and he fell asleep on the Pacific-36 express run of all things. This tells you all you need to know about the 68As.
He seems to have forgetten the negative aspects of this episode and has since begged me to take him on the Q train again. How do you tell a three-year-old a certain train doesn't run on weekends? I am glad that this did not turn him off from trains forever. We've been going on expeditions for six months now and have seen beggars with more class. At least they move along after giving their spiel!
Happy Passover-
I don't like it any more than you do, but that's one of the prices we pay for living in a free country. I would much rather deal with such nonsense (by leaving the train, if necessary) than have the government tell me what someone can say and where they can say it. I spent a year living under Facist rule in Spain (1972-73, before the death of Franco). Very few people knew I was Jewish, and I had to be very careful what I said or who I spoke to. I'm proud to be an American precisely because, as I've told my children many times, this is the one country in the world where our freedom comes first - including, as you have observed, the freedom to make a fool of oneself.
And a Happy Pesach to you too!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, it is a free country, but it seems to me that bellowing at total strangers who are minding their own businesses and creating an atmosphere of fear and tension should be punishable by law. The potential for violence also exists in such situations. I have seen the cops eject loud and/or abusive beggars from trains in the past. No such luck this time!
Luckily my son didn't blab to my wife about what happened, or we probably wouldn't be allowed to ride the trains for fun again.
In certain denominations, fire-and-brimstone is the standard method of getting a message across.
Amazing that you can be arrested for loud radio playing but when an equally obnoxious panhandler produces the same volume and disrespect for the others around him/her, THAT isn't punishable.
Interestingly, the panhandlers must have been out en masse that weekend. On that same weekend, I was videotaping a cab ride on the E train from Jamaica Center to the World Trade Center, and at Roosevelt Ave, a panhandler got on. He wasn't too loud but he proceeded to annoy, er, tell us all about his bad turns in life (he claimed he had everything from Aids to Muscular Dystrophy) from that point UNTIL 14TH STREET!! Uuggghhhh!! I haven't played the video back yet but I most likely will have to do it again. (Actually, that isn't such a bad thing :)
--Mark
Firstly, those doom & gloom prophets are protected by the free speech doctrine; and two, it is very difficult to find a cop on the subway, especially since NYPD took over the subway "patrols".
This is new york, people making attempts at public speaking just need to be tolerated. Listening or not is your decision. Last week during the morning rush I was on a manhattan bound D at Dekalb Avenue, and there was a woman having an argument with herself, sceaming, gestures and all. I have been living in NYC all my life, and I find that these days nothing suprises me. If you live in NY long enough, you get conditioned to not be afraid, or impressed by certain things or behavior that would be considered abnormal in other parts of the country.
There have been many Saturdays where I picked up the slant heading into Manhattan.
My nephew loves comeing over on the weekend, he wants the B82 ride to the L for an 40 Slant headend run. Come back on the N and home for another 40. Me personnaly not a fan of the buses, but he gets a kick out of it...
So, you're a Saturday Canarsie rider, too, huh? I was a regular Saturday rider on that line from 1967 to 1970, starting with BMT standards and ending with R-7/9s and R-42s (or maybe it was R-40Ms). Haven't ridden it to Brooklyn since then.
Not that this has anything to do with fire-and-brimstone sermons... I agree with Wayne: either ignore that sort of thing, or get off at the next stop.
I would simply have bailed at Church (no Pun Intended) and waited for the next Q train. Chances of getting a Slant R40 on the Q: 100%.
Wayne (MrSlantR40, of course)
I've encountered this same woman several times during the morning rush (unless there's more than one of these preacher-ladies working the Q--and the 2, on occasion), most recently yesterday. She got going as soon as we left DeKalb, and kept going through some pretty strident heckling and a ten-minute bridge delay until we got to Grand Street. Did she tell you Jesus was driving the train?
Howard, don't fret. Seems like you probably ran into that same bible-speiling wacko nutzoid I used to have to deal with almost every morning on the rush hour commute from Flatbush/Nostrand Junction (#5 train). I would get off at Borough Hall/Court St. and she still had air in her lungs after a half hour of ranting to pierce your ear drums!
Anyhow, nuts like that should be institutionalized and not punished as a criminal. She is obviously unstable and should be handled as a mental patient. The woman is certainly within that catagory since she never seems to respond to any verbal afronts and only gets louder with her speil. We should all just be thankful that characters like her are a rare breed among the population.
Doug aka BMTman
1. How come the Chrystie St connection is not open? Why was it shut down?
2. How come the Transit Authority can't do the same thing on the Manhattan Bridge as they are doing on the Williamsburg Bridge?(Tearing up and replacing new tracks?)
3. Franklin Shuttle: Will both tracks at Prospect Park restored for passenger service?
I'll give it a shot.
1. The Chrystie St. connection consisted of two parts (or three, depending on how you look at it). Currently, only one is open: the north side tracks from the Manhattan Bridge to the Grand St. station. The second part is the connection from Houston St. to Delancey St., which gave 6th Ave. trains access to the Williamsburg Bridge. This was used by the now-defunct KK and later K service, and has not seen regular revenue service since 1976. The third part, which is more of a direct result of the connection, is the south side tracks from the bridge being rerouted to the BMT Broadway line. It is slated to reopen in the not-too-distant future, at which time the north side tracks will be shut down.
2. The Manhattan Bridge is a totally different kettle of fish compared to the Williamsburg Bridge. The latter has one pair of tracks in the middle, while the former has two pairs of tracks running along the sides. This has been discussed and dissected before. Many people feel that the Manhattan Bridge should have been just torn down and rebuilt; however, it was determined that it could be fixed. They just didn't say how long it would take. It will probably never be completely fixed.
Hey -
Just a couple of questions.
The third part, which is more of a direct result of the connection, is the south side tracks from the bridge being rerouted
to the BMT Broadway line. It is slated to reopen in the not-too-distant future, at which time the north side tracks will
be shut down.
IF this is so, to where will Brighton D/Q service be rerouted? Will the 6th Ave express maintain its dependence upon B/D/Q trains if they aren't running on the northside tracks? Is there a southside connection to the IND 6th Ave express tracks?
Hmm.
Jordan
The B/D/Q will run on the B'way Express to at least 57st, as they did before. There will be no express service on 6th Ave, and there will be a second B/D service on 6th Ave and CPW from 34st/Herald Sq. uptown.
-Hank
The B/D/Q will run on the B'way Express to at least 57st, as they did before. There will be no express service on 6th Ave, and there will be a second B/D
service on 6th Ave and CPW from 34st/Herald Sq. uptown.
-Hank
How will this benefit riders in Brooklyn?
It seems like this really brings disadvantages to village commuters like me (no b/d/q svce to w.4th st.)
Will the northern tracks be reopened after their reconstruction?
- Jordan
(I think this will hurt Brooklyn riders). You're obviously new to the site, because you've missed two years of ranting and raving on this subject. The deterioration of the bridge has already caused a decline in service for Brooklyn riders -- B and N riders face longer rides, and D and Q trains are packed, but there is no way to improve speed or capacity. A loss of the bridge entirely would be a disaster for a large swath of Brooklyn.
Years ago, engineers decided that the bridge couldn't carry trains in the long run. Unwilling to spend the money and fight the opposition to a replacement, the city found other engineers who said the bridge could be fixed to prevent it from cracking every time a train goes over. But 18 years later, every fix uncovers more problems. The official plan is for both sides to be reopened once are for all in 2003, but given the history many on this site have doubts. I've gotten various answers from various engineers. (The Williamsburg Bridge is more likely to be fixable, but I still have doubts).
The deterioration and possible loss of the bridge is the biggest threat there is to Brooklyn's economic future, but none of the politicos gives a damn. Perhaps the even worse service when the north side tracks close will wake people up. Don't let them say they didn't see it coming.
The Willy B is more likely to be fixable simply because the problem ISN'T a lousy design. While both bridges suffer from inadequate maintainence that caused their various failings, only the Manhattan is of a design that makes everything worse.
-Hank
You hit the nail on the head: the Manhattan Bridge was not properly designed to carry subway trains. The tracks needed to be placed in the middle, not on the sides. There would much less flexing with such an arrangement.
If I may throw in my two cents' worth: I get the feeling that the Q will remain on Broadway if (and it's a big if) the bridge is fully open again.
(Bad design) If moving the tracks to the center would solve the problem, I don't see why no one suggests doing it. But moving heavy rail cars over suspension bridges seems to be a bad idea generally.
Now that you mention it, you're right. I'm sure the Williamsburg Bridge flexes when a train crosses it, but it's probably not the same type of flexing which occurs on the Manhattan Bridge. On the Williamsburg, the span would probably flatten out to an extent, while on the Manhattan, it flexes on one side.
IF this is so, to where will Brighton D/Q service be rerouted? Will the 6th Ave express maintain its dependence upon B/D/Q trains if they aren't running on the northside tracks? Is there a southside connection to the IND 6th Ave express tracks?
:Gut Feel On
B/D/Q trains from Brooklyn will run via the south side of the Manhattan Bridge via the BMT Broadway Express tracks to 63rd St. N/R trains will continue to run local as they do now.
B/D Trains from the Bronx will run as they do now from 205th St / Bedfored Park Blvd / 168th St to 34th St, allowing a transfer to the downtown trains. An "S" shuttle will run along the 6th Ave local tracks at all times between 57th St / 6th Ave and Grand Street.
--Mark
Here we go with the......
,,
,,
,,
...... again. Well most people been through this before so I guess it would be less confusing the 2nd time around.
How about:
=
=
If they made it the weekday express, the diamond shape would be more accurate. I prefer "U", but it is only on R-32/38 signs, in white)
The last time, there was no , but istead a S, but this time, it could be , even if it is not yet extended to Queens (it probably will be around the same time the bridge switch occurs, in 2 years). The Bway service will most likely terminate at 57th, not in Queens.
I've been writing Peter Caf. and his colleagues for years about this.
So then in theory this is a temporary fix. B/D/Q service returns to the northside tracks (pending their 2003 revitalization runs on schedule) and a new train runs the b-way express tracks, right?
It seems like a huge waste to throw away the 34th-4th express svce.
How will the Queens Plaza connection work going on right now affect the rerouting of trains?
- Jordan
So then in theory this is a temporary fix. B/D/Q service returns to the northside tracks (pending their 2003 revitalization runs on schedule) and a new train runs the b-way express tracks, right?
Yes, although the south side Manhattan Bridge closure is "temporary", too :)
It seems like a huge waste to throw away the 34th-4th express svce.
I am sure this will not go away.
How will the Queens Plaza connection work going on right now affect the rerouting of trains?
I don't think it does at all because none of the reroutes make their way onto the IND Queens Blvd line.
--Mark
There's one thing I'd like to know - Where will B, D, and Q trains go after 63rd Street. The 63rd Street tunnel will only connect to the Queens Blvd subway when finished. The Queens Blvd subway would be stretched severely beyond its capacity if the B, D, and Q were to all have to go there. Even if the G is cut back to Court Square, you would still have the E, F, and R. And you can forget about having a V train to serve 6th Avenue from 63rd Street. I seriously doubt that you can have six lines running under Queens Blvd, without having slow, poor-quality service. And it won't solve the problem of hideously overcrowded E and F trains.
It seems like the 63rd Street tunnel, like the Chrystie Street connection, solved one problem and created another. The last time we had Broadway B/D/Q express service, it terminated at 57th Street. That made it possible to store trains there. But now the express tracks continue beyond 57th and they only go to Queens (they were supposed to go also 2nd Avenue, but we all know what happened with that).
A better idea (not like the MTA has ever cared about a better idea) would be to operate the Q to Astoria, much like the Broadway B that ran when the 6th Avenue tracks were last shut down. It would switch to the express tracks at 57th and continue as the Brighton Express. To make up for the loss of Brooklyn B service, a new W train (is a yellow W on all roll signs?) can run from Queens through 63rd Street to Coney Island over the West End Line. Finally, to make up for the loss of Brooklyn D service, the M should be extended to Coney Island at all times. The Z can take its place on West End. Also the N should run express and over the bridge to free up space for addtional M trains.
Franklin Shuttle: Will both tracks at Prospect Park restored for passenger service?
I believe most of the line will remain double tracked except the area north of Park Place which will be single track.
--Mark
That makes sense since Dean Street station is closed anyway.
Might as well save some dollars along the way by using less trackage if they can.
North of Park Place is single tracked, but service will only run from the Northbound tracks at Prospect Park, Southside is for layup and backup.
One time when they were working between the Park and Dekalb D Shuttle trains were turned on the Shuttle Line but they were only 8 car R38's because of the curve.
There were several times when the D went to Franklin, such as the tunnel lighting G.O's of the early 90's they usually used 4 car R-68's or 68A's, In the beginning of '92, there was some kind of double G.O., with the N replaced by the D both ways on the Sea Beach, and R-40/42 shuttles ran on the Brighton. Later, they stopped the through service to Franklin, and terminated D's at Prospect Park and had shuttles buses to both Franklin and DeKalb.
I doesn't make sense. This line, with it's new and improved connections, could have been used for Mahnattan Bridge diversions. Now people would have to crowd into a 2 car train running on 7 or more minute headways to get to the IRT or IND. This will not draw that many people away from the Montague tunnel.
Just as a footnote since I'm not sure if anyone checked recently: I tried looking for some renmant of Dean Street, but there was nothing left. It is completely, officially gone.
I heard that many years ago there was NX sevice that sort of ran a super express service along sea beach and switched over to the brighton line. My question is how was this possible with brighton local and express trains coming in the other direction? Has this bben done on any other lines as well?
There was an NX Broadway-Sea Beach-Brighton Super Express service that ran from Nov 67 to Apr 68. Trains ran to Manhattan in the am rush and to Brooklyn in the pm rush. They ran south from Brighton Bch to Coney Is then non stop via Sea Beach exp tracks to 59 St then exp via 4 Av,bypass Dekalb Av, Manhattan Bridge(south side) and Bway exp to 57 St. There were only about five trains each way and because of delays encountered at Coney Is the service was not well patronized and discontinued. Brighton service at the time was D 205-Coney,QB 57-Brighton,QJ 168/Jamaica-Brighton Bch. It was necessary at Brighton Beach for the D exp to crossover to the outside tks while the QB/QJ locals had to cross over to the exp tracks. Add to this the NX terminating there also and you can see the problem.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Did NX service really end in April of 1968? I was under the impression that it wasn't discontinued until July 1, or the previous Friday, June 28. July 1 marked the implementation of what I refer to as Phase 2 of the Chrystie St. changes and reroutings; Phase 1 took place on Nov. 27, 1967, and Phase 3 on August 18, 1968.
Also, did RJ service end at the same time as the NX?
The NX made its last run on Friday, April 12,1968 and was replaced with N trains. The delays going through Coney discouraged many riders from the Brighton Line. The RJ ran until Friday,June 27,1968, while the TT West End Shuttle was discontinued two days later. The August changes were quite interesting as they eliminated the Brighton Beach bottleneck with the D exp and the QJ lcl. It also marked the return of Culver express service on the F. Jay St to Kings Hwy with only four stops,now that was a fast run.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hmmm. April 12, 1968 was Good Friday. We didn't go into the city that Saturday, but did go on Tuesday the 16th. Were there any notices posted about the demise of the NX?
There is a photo in the R-32 section of a TT at 36th St. on its last day of operation - June 30, 1968 - at least that's the date on the photo.
You're right about the D and QJ - they swapped terminals on August 18. So did the QB with the D. After that, the D picked up the slack on nights and weekends and ran all the way to Coney Island, making all local stops on the Brighton line. I still have one of those pamphlets which outlined service changes on July 1 and August 18. I had one which outlined the first round of changes on Nov. 27, but can no longer find it. For some reason, it didn't include the NX.
Phase 2 (the opening of the 6th Av express) and Phase 3 (57th St and KK service) were combined into the same pick weren't they?
The 6th Ave. express tracks opened in November of 1967. Because the 57th St. station wasn't ready yet, they were used only during rush hours by B and D trains. During non-rush hours, B trains terminated at W. 4th St. except during nights and Sundays when they didn't run, and D trains shared the local tracks with F trains between W. 4th and 34th Sts.
With the opening of the 57th St. station on July 1, 1968, the KK made its debut, the D began running express along 6th Ave. at all times, and the B began running 24/7: to 168th St. during rush hours; express along 6th Ave. and local along CPW; and to 57th St. at all other times, running local along 6th Ave. B trains didn't begin running express along 6th Ave. full time until much later.
According to Cudahy's book, the express tracks opened Jul. 1 1968. The Nov. 67 map shows the D skipping 14th and 23rd in rush hours, but I think I read somewhere that they passed by them running on the local track.
No. The express tracks opened in Nov 97. I remember the smell of a new tunnel while riding on the first weekday of D on the Brighton.
I think you meant to say November 1967. I'll bet the tunnels were nice and clean, too, the way the 63rd St. tunnel was when it opened.
That may be correct, although I don't see what would have been accomplished by having B and D trains skip 23rd and 14th Sts. while running on the local track, especially if there was an F train ahead of either one of them. Admittedly, I don't recall seeing a B or D train pull into 34th St. on the express tracks prior to July 1, but then again, I was in the city on only two weekdays during that time, once on April 16 and again on June 27. I did go into the city on July 1, as a matter of fact, and while I did take a D to the Bronx, we didn't ride it along 6th Ave. We did take an E of R-1/9s with a dark first car to LaGuardia, along with a Q33 to meet my aunt, then headed back to Manhattan on a 7 to Times Square, then a 1 to Lincoln Center, where she was staying overnight.
It seems like that Brighton Beach to Stillwell Ave. portion of the line was its "Achilles' heel". Suppose a revived were to terminate at Stillwell and not proceed up the Brighton line. Would it have better luck? I guess the TA (not yet MTA in '67) felt they didn't want to start a major express run with only one "pickup" station, but I think people on the lower Brighton and Culver lines could have taken the regular trains on those lines to the Stillwell Ave. terminal and changed for the quite easily.
I never did get a chance to ride the , but I did go to 57th St./7th Ave. once when it was running with the intent of doing so. Instead, I was intrigued by a train consisting of newly painted and cleaned R-1 cars. I say "R-1" because I think it was cars 100-109. They had been carefully restored to what I guess is the way they looked on the IND's opening day (except for the QB and 57th St. readings on the signs). What I remember most was the ground glass "No Smoking" signs, with the message actually etched into glass, or so it appeared. Does anyone else remember this train running on the ? I saw it again a week or so later making the same run, so it definitely did it more than once.
I saw that train a few times, but I didn't note the numbers. It was an 8 car train of r1-9.
I also rode the NX once from Manhattan to Brighton. I don't remember a bottleneck at CI, but it probably did slow down. The only people I remember being aboard were railfans, this in the height of rush hour. That was the real reason it was killed. (They don't run the subways for the railfans, as much as some of the contributors to this board would like to think.) I think a Brighton Express would still beat it into or from Manhattan, so why take it from Brighton Beach?
There was a posting or an article in the papers when it was killed saying the trains would run as regular N's.
With ridership on the increase, it's possible that a revived NX, terminating at Stillwell Ave., might be successful today. The one advantage to having a single pickup station before the nonstop run would be that the train would still be relatively empty upon reaching 4th Ave., thereby enabling it to take on additional passengers where a regular N would already have more passengers. I see such a scenario unfolding when our new light rail extension in Denver opens next year. Ridership on the existing line has increased to the point where they keep adding more park'n'ride spaces, and all of these are taken by mid-morning. With five additional stations scheduled to open, I foresee trains being packed by the time they reach the current southern terminus at I-25 and Broadway. 3-car trains will be a must. Maybe there will be short turn runs during peak hours; the existing layup track south of the terminus has been reconfigured into a pocket track. Yes, new light rail track is being put down for the extension, although a lot remains to be done. Latest news flash: RTD (our Regional Transportation District) voted to ante up its share of the cost to build the Platte Valley Spur line to Union Station. They're saying the spur could open by 2001.
Anyway, getting back to the QB of R-1/9s, there are photos of this train on this website and in New York City Subway Cars. In fact, one of the photos in the book shows Seashore's own R-7 #1440 as being a part of that consist. Or perhaps that was a different QB train...
Why not an 'NX' that makes all stops to Kings Highway and then runs express on the Sea Beach to 59th Street, then continuing express the rest of the way?
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
IMHO, there should have been at least one express stop included along the Sea Beach line. Kings Highway would get my vote, along with perhaps one at New Utrecht so express passengers could transfer to the West End. While the concept of a nonstop run is an excellent one, such as CPW, the location of its placement is a key factor. In the case of the Sea Beach, the nonstop run occurs just before the last stop. The only advantage I could see would be at the end of a hot summer day with a train packed with beachgoers heading home from Coney Island, which was exactly what the old sunny summer Sunday specials were all about.
Sorry If I got long-winded. Your idea is a good one.
You have to remember that Coney Island, in 1915, was a very, very popular attraction that needed abundant service. A non-stop run from 59th St would serve trips originating from the other boroughs very well, while the locals would serve the people living nearby very well. Also, these lines already existed to some extent and were simply rebuilt.
--Mark
(Beach specials) Coney Island doesn't draw the crowds it once did, and many come by car. However, if "Destination Technodome" is ever built in the Rockaways (fat chance, but what the heck) perhaps some "Specials" would be in order. Unless the #7 line were extended, these could start at 42nd St lower level, then run non-stop through Brooklyn from Jay St to the Rockaways.
[Anyway, getting back to the QB of R-1/9s, there are photos of this train on this website and in New
York City Subway Cars. In fact, one of the photos in the book shows Seashore's own R-7 #1440
as being a part of that consist. Or perhaps that was a different QB train... ]
It must have been the same train. Any idea why they were spruced up like that?
Yes, although they did regular revenue duty as rush-hour QBs -- as far as I know -- they were restored for railfan trips (after all $$ is made from those excurions as well) and for the inclusion of one or more cars (later only car 100) into the Transit Museum which was being formulated around the time of the QB R1-9 trains on Brighton.
As I recall at the time the NX was running the Sea Beach Express tracks were signalled as an absolute block between 59 St and Kings Highway meaning only one train at a time could be in the block. This limited NX service to five trains. So that probably helped to kill off the service too.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I seem to recall no signals between Kings Highway and just before the portal to 59th St.
--Mark
As part of the 63rd ST tunnel project, I was under the impression that Stillwell Ave was getting an additional track, w/o platform, to serve as a bypass for rush hour put-ins for the new 63rd St service. Had this track been around in 1967, the NX may not have been discontinued so quickly. However, with ridership patterns the way they were back then, I doubt the NX would have lasted much longer than it did anyway.
--Mark
When the NX ran, the dispatcher at Brighton Beach had a very hard time manipulating trains: he had northbound AND southbound terminating at the same place. The D trains had to be relayed for the next trip, and the NX had to be relayed to lay up. (Speaking for the PM rush.)
Does anyone know the running time from a timetable from Coney Island to 59th Street express on the Sea Beach(aka NX)?
Ah, the ol' QB 'museum train'. I remember it fondly. As a matter of fact just for the pure fun of it -- during my High School years at Erasmus (yeah, Babs' old alumni) -- I would specifically wait for it at Church Ave. station around 4:30pm just to ride it all the way to CI! Man, that was some ride! The roar of the motors, the smell of a real railcar and the beautiful restoration job made the train of R-1s a personal favorite. I recall taking my camera on a couple of the QB trips and got some shots of the 'museum train' in action on the Brigton Line.
The train of R1-9s (not sure if they were all first gen. R cars) would also make the morning rush hour into Manhattan if I recall at about 8:30 am.
Those were the days!
Doug aka BMTman
I recollect that R-38's were used on the NX service. Those were probably the newest equipment on the IND-BMT, as I don't believe the R-40's started arriving until after Chrystie Street opened.
Yes, the slant R-40s entered service in 1968. R-27s were used on the NX during its final months. Larry did mention that R-38s were used initially.
Sid: I believe that I did ride R-38's in NX service. The R-27's showed up there too. I have a photo of a northbound NX at Union Sq with R-27's. The train is signed up NX -- 57 Street and also has a blue medallion with the letters "NX" accross the front. There are two railfans at the front window and a third peeking out the side door. Maybe its some of our fellow sub talkers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I was passing through the fulton line on the A express today and I noticed on the platform at Rockaway Ave. there is a sign posted that says R110 R110 R110. Now I know what the R110 A and B are about but what is this sigh about?
That's the conductor's board for R110B operations. The conductor platforms at a different position than in normal R-38/44 operation, so the R-110 conductor board tells him/her that the train is positioned correctly so that the doors may be opened.
I was standing at hoyt schermerhorn station when i borded an r110 on the Cline last month. and I was wondering to my self as much as I dislike both the R110a and b I was wondering what was the real reason the Ta was not gettin g any more of them? What are the inprovements onthe R142 (besides my peronal favorite,where the number/letter logo is placed)that would make it more superior to the R110s. What lines will they service? My guess is the 2 and 5 or the M or L lines ( I am not sure which division it will start in either), but I could be wrong . does any have any answeres? thanks
I forgot to add in R 143 into my question. sorry
Now you tell me!!!!!!!!! :) :):)
My question is what they (MTA) going to do with R-110A & B ? Are they going to scrapped both A & B ?
The 110A's will probably be modified to run with the 142's, since the dimensions and consists will be the same. I don't know what they'll do with the 110B's. They could use them on a shuttle (Franklin, Myrtle)
[The 110A's will probably be modified to run with the 142's, since the dimensions and consists will be the same. I don't know what they'll do with the 110B's. They could use them on a shuttle (Franklin, Myrtle)]
Sorry, Eric, but neither the dimensions nor the consists will be the same. The R-110Bs are 67 feet long and are arranged in 3-car sets. The R-143s will be 60 feet long and will be arranged in 4-car sets.
David
I knew this; that's why I said they could be used on shuttles, where they wouldn't need to be mixed with anything else.(3 car trains). It was the 110A's that I said are the same dimension as the 142's, and could be made to run with them.
[I knew this; that's why I said they could be used on shuttles, where they wouldn't need to be mixed with anything else.(3 car trains). It was the 110A's that I said are the same dimension as the 142's, and could be made to run with them.]
Sorry, Eric, if I attributed your comments to the R-143s when you meant the R-142s. However, something you may not realize: the new platforms on the rehabilitated Franklin Avenue Shuttle will be 170 feet long! That's not long enough for three R-110Bs OR four R-142s, but will berth two-car trains of R-68s comfortably.
David
Correcting the correction :-) :
Sorry, Eric, if I attributed your comments to the R-143s when you meant the R-142s. However, something you may not realize: the new platforms on the rehabilitated Franklin Avenue Shuttle will be 170 feet long! That's not long enough for three R-110Bs OR four R-14_3_s, but will berth two-car trains of R-68s comfortably.
I thought someone posted on this site that NOTHING will be done with these cars because of their experimental nature and that no spare parts were manufactured for them.
--Mark
More than likely they'll end up serving as the shuttle trains for each division, the way the last small order, the R-11s, spent their final years plowing the Franklin Shuttle.
The R142 and 142A will be the IRT division. The R143 will be in the BMT divsion. R143 has not been ordered yet. I think the R143 will be on the line. Although there are rumors that it will be tested on the line first.
The R110A and B were test trains. I do not think there will be anymore trains. I never been on the 110B since I am mostly an IRT guy:) :).....
BTW, I like the R110A.
The R110 trains were prototype/test trains for all the equipment and layout possibilities for the R142 and R143. They're both one-offs, like a concept car.
The R143 will be equipped for communications-based signal systems, which will be tested on the L line.
-Hank
1. Sunset Park: A couple of shots of the train @ 25th Ave. Shows students getting heading to Sunset Park (Lafayette HS)from the station. Also shows the Utica Ave station entrance on the , trains.
2. Just Another Girl on the IRT: You know where this was shot. Every station on the , West side express from Wall St to 72St were shot. Also shot of Flatbush Ave station. Girl riding on the from Flatbush. Shot of girl @ Junius St. It must have been an evening on the weekend because the was entering the station in both directions.
3. Strapped: Several shots of leaving the Myrtle Av station heading towards Metro. A couple of scenes were taken under the Broadway El in Brooklyn.
Just saw another one with plenty of shots of the subways, though none of the movie actually took place on the subway.
the movie was titled "Blood Broothers" -- must have been done in the mid-1970's, Richard Gere was the star but he looked like a young just-out-of-high-school-kid (which he played).
Plenty of shots of the elevateds in the Bronx, mostly the #2 line, and it must have been shot on weekends as all the trains that were running, were six-car trains, and lots of trains were on center layup tracks. All the trains were in the MTA blue/silver, heavily grafittied, and FILTHY. You couldn't even make out car numbers or destination signs. Many shots were done right around Allerton Avenue, also a street shot at the theater by 233rd & White Plains Road.
I saw a post a week or so ago about the arrival of the new dual mode LIRR engines. Does this mean the new engines currently being used with the Dbl Deckers are NOT dual mode? For example engines numbered 405 and 420, are these just Electric?. I see them at Jamaica almost every evening about 6:15 or so.
They are just DIESEL, but look basically the same as the dual modes.
To repaeat from a LIRR source who is also a frequent contributor here:
23 DEs (diesel/elect) are #4xx, 23 DMs (dual mode) are/will be 5xx.
He also said that the DMs will probally be on each end while the DEs will be on the East end with the 5xxx coach with engineer controls on the West end. The 4xxx coachs are double deckers.
Mr t__:^)
Huh? Why would they need to double-end the DM30's?
In diesel mode, they should be equivalent to the DE's. Is their performance in Electric mode that crappy?
(I wouldn't doubt it, though. I feel that the whole order is ridiculous --- there are a _lot_ of bugs on these things.)
[Huh? Why would they need to double-end the DM30's?]
It's an operational thing.
[In diesel mode, they should be equivalent to the DE's. Is their performance in Electric mode that crappy?]
The diesels will run on those lines that will still terminate at Jamaica or Hunters Point ... i.e. they can only run so many more train sets to Penn or GCT (when it's avail to LIRR).
So, for some folks you'll still have to "Change at Jamaica"
Mr t__:^)
DM30's will be double ended to prevent third rail gapping and to provide adequate tractive power in the East River tunnels.
The DM30's will not go to Grand Central or Flatbush Ave. in the future - only to Penn Station. GC, the 63d St tunnel, and Atlantic Ave tunnel cannot accommodate the C3 bi-level coaches.
Wednesday's Newsday had a LIRR full page adv with a nice photo of the DE or DM and coaches behind.
Mr t__:^)
Now that sounds like LIRR thinking:
First, buy expensive equipment that isn't compatible with your infrastructure (c-3's and 63rd st/atlantic tunnels). Then, Run a second, many-million-dollar locomotive solely to prevent third-rail gapping. Surely, it would cost less to outfit some of the C3 coaches with third-rail shoes and have a big jumper than to require two locomotives for these runs.
What does Metro-North do with their dual-mode fleet? Last time I checked, they ran a train of cars with just one locomotive.
-SteveK
My feeling is that the Dual Mode consists will be 'Double Ended' only during the testing phase. Clearly, in service, if a Dual Mode loco were to gap, it could be switched to diesel mode until the loco were back on the 3rd rail. Diesel mode may be used in the river tubes in an emergency ar evidenced by the LIRR equivalent to the Triple A . Loco's #102 and 104 (parked at Harold Tower) are used to rescue stalled electrics, even in the river tubes.
The Dual Mode engines, will probably never be operated singly. Amtrak will not allow it.It's what happened to LIRR's FL9AC's. The law does not allow diesel engines to (or steam) be run underground. Pennsylvania Station has several large interlockings at it's east end with third rail gaps that are a few hudred feet long. That's why Amtrak requires Two engines at opposite ends. The Hudson trains come through the west end of the station where the gaps are much smaller.
The Hudson trains also go through the east end to Sunnyside for servicing. This throws a wrench in your logic. The trains are not doubled ended with engines at Sunnyside, they are turned though the ballon track around sunnyside.
...But the NJtransit and Amtrak trains are running off caternary, while the LIRR is on third rail. It's real easy to believe that the gaps are shorter on the caternary than on the third rail...
If only they could remove an engine _quickly_ at Jamaica. OTOH, they could put another pickup on the first car and run some big honkin' cable up to the locomotive, with the first car semi-permanently coupled to the first car. Running that many amps through an "extension cord" is a bit tricky, though.
Again Amtrak Empire Corridor are not Overhead wireing. Diesel engine with thrid rail shoe (Under Running). They only use ONE engine through Penn. Why can't the LIRR use one engine?
Amtrak only uses the southern most tracks to come in on, from Sunnyside AND they're running on O/H wire vs. 3rd rail. At the switches just before tracks 21 to 19 there is a BIG gap. A single 3rd rail engine could stall easily there. I once rode a M-1 that stalled comming out of Atlantic Ave, he let her roll back & started again.
Mr t__:^)
>>AND they're running on O/H wire vs. 3rd rail<<
I'm not following, your telling me the EMPIRE SERVICE trains have Overhead wire capacity?? They not only run fosil fuel and third rail shoe but have wire pickup in some form??
No, just that on the North approach to Penn there are big gaps in the third rail. Amtrak & NJT use the Southern appraoches mainly because there platforms fan out from their. They're all O/H, so a single engine w/ O/H doesn't have the same problem that a single dual mode would.
P.S. I've seen a M-1 elect go dark & have to roll comming out of Penn.
Mr t__:^)
#506 was out on the mainline undergoing trainline function testing. When I saw it, it was running under diesel propulsion.
There's no such thing as a gap in catenary. If there were, the lines would be ripped down every time a train crossed the gap. There are unpowered sections that are about a foot long, if needed. Otherwise, to change wires, a second wire is parallel to the original, and peels of, kinda like a 'Y'
-Hank
Are air brakes different from hydrylic brakes in sense of operation?
How are they the same or different? Heard you needed more experience
and knowledge to operate them. Compare to subway care, are they like SMEE or non-SMEE equiptment?
I posted this here because there was a discussion on SMEE and non-SMWW
brake eqiuptment.
AMTRAK's new ACELA service now has a Web site.
O-h-h-h-h with a couple of videos too, nice.
Mr t__:^)
What is the status of the Mineola grade seperation project?
I haven't been out there in years. I used to enjoy going out to the station and locate on the westbound platform to watch the eastbound parade of homeward communter trains. I tried to get out there on the Friday before Memorial Day, as this is the day when "The Cannonball" was first operated with its full compliment of parlor cars. I recall there used to be five or six "red stripe" ca
What is the status of the Mineola grade seperation project?
I haven't been out there in years. I used to enjoy going out to the station and locate on the westbound platform to watch the eastbound parade of homeward communter trains. I tried to get out there on the Friday before Memorial Day, as this is the day when "The Cannonball" was first operated with its full compliment of parlor cars. I recall there used to be five or six "red stripe" cars and an equal number of "blue stripe" coaches powered by two GP38-2's charging east at 65 MPH.
There is a thread circulating about the Babylon Branch elevation. On that subject, I was out at Mineola one afternoon when a confused pedrestian unfortunately was on the tracks at the grade crossing just east of the overpass. Because trains run on east on either track I'm sure more than on pedestrian has been fooled.
Anyway, I'm not going to document the results of the encounter of a person with an express running non-stop through Mineola.
If anyplace on LI needed grade seperation, Mineola is the place.
JimK
Chicago
/*What is the status of the Mineola grade seperation project?*/
The current one they are doing, between Mineola and Merrilon Ave is still being worked on - they are adding a 3rd track there.
/*I haven't been out there in years. I used to enjoy going out to the station and locate on the westbound platform to watch the eastbound parade of homeward communter trains.*/
Always the highlight of the few times I end up there durring rush hour :)
/*There is a thread circulating about the Babylon Branch elevation. On that subject, I was out at Mineola one afternoon when a confused pedrestian unfortunately was on the tracks at the grade crossing just east of the overpass. Because trains run on east on either track I'm sure more than on pedestrian has been fooled.*/
I've seen so many near misses that I'm amazed the LIRR hasn't gotten rid of the crossings there yet.
/*If anyplace on LI needed grade seperation, Mineola is the place. */
Rumor has it, the last plans on the table were scrapped because it would have eliminated Oyster Bay. Give them 5 years, and that won't be a concern. I'd personnally love to see 3 track to Hicksville and grade seperated, but that would be too much work. It'd be *much* safer though. Plus, maybe then the LIRR could finnaly make use of the 100+ top speed of the M-1s.
[I'd personnally love to see 3 track to Hicksville and grade seperated, but that would be too much work. It'd be *much* safer though. Plus, maybe then the LIRR could finnaly make use of the 100+ top speed of the M-1s.]
Phillip, I'd love to see that happen also. But by the time the get the job done, the M-1 will be history. Keep in mind they are already at the thirty year mark.
Without a MAJOR rebuilding the probably can't make another ten years and be very reliable.
JimK
Chicago
Another 10 years? The fleet is falling apart as it is!!!. And they are already scrapping them, even though M-7 is still a few years off. Sounds like the MP-54 -> M-1 transition all over again.....
At least one of the grade crossings is currently being eliminated, i.e. just West of the Mineola station at Old Country Road & Herricks Road. For a buff the spot just East of Mineola is very interesting as two lines are seperated by about a car length.
Mr t__:^)
/*If anyplace on LI needed grade seperation, Mineola is the place. */
Rumor has it, the last plans on the table were scrapped because it would have eliminated Oyster Bay. Give them 5 years, and that won't be a concern. I'd
personnally love to see 3 track to Hicksville and grade seperated, but that would be too much work. It'd be *much* safer though. Plus, maybe then the LIRR
could finnaly make use of the 100+ top speed of the M-1s.
=====================
Why is that so? They could elevate the mainline, and then have a downgrade ramp towards the OB branch. Probably would make the most sense to do it _after_ the two grade crossings on the branch, on the way to E. Williston.
They could also shut down the road & make everyone go over the exist. overpass just down the road a piece. But a lot lawyers have offices there & then would be late for court.
Mr t__:^)
The roadway was lowered, the railway was raised. All that is left is the finishing work.
That's the one I was talking about in my post.
"All that's left is the finishing work" only if you consider widening the overpass and installing the 3rd track. Today, on the west side of the overpass, they apparently dropped the frog for a new switch that will be installed just east of Merrilon Avenue. Since they replaced the Mineola Blvd. Bridge, I assume that the 3rd track will be going through Mineola Sta. and out to Hicksville.
I don't think that there is room for a third track through the station.
The mainline is four tracks until "Queens" interlocking, where it becomes two main tracks paralleling the Hempstead Branch, and continues as two main tracks to “Divide” interlocking just east of Hicksville.
Will a third track be installed between Queens and Divide? I’d say that the costs of a project such as this would be astronomical, but it would also allow more flexibilty in scheduling trains.
Jim K.
Chicago
Not to mention, if they could make it a third, express track, with no switches over it, they could hit real speeds if they ditch the grade crossings at Mineola. Of course, this is the LIRR, so don't hold your breath for that... Interestingly, EMD's website says the DE-30s are geared for 100mph, though, I'm sure they'll never get above 80 in their entire lifes....
(Astronomical costs of three tracking the LIRR) Perhaps the MTA will decide to use the Transit Authority surplus to fund this investment. Not possible? How about cutting state funding to the TA even move, and increasing state funding to the LIRR even more, which has the same effect. Can state aid to the TA fall below zero?
Come on now Larry ... things aren't quite THAT bad. The TA is buying a load of buses & subways AND undertaking some track/plant PM work.
The LIRR & Metro-North have been neglected, real badly, in the past ... so maybe it their time right now.
P.S. Larry's wants to start a debate on this, so make his day & join in on a long thread B-))
Mr t__:^)
[re spending on LIRR/Metro North vs. NYCT]
We're not necessarily talking about a zero-sum game here. Sure, adding a third track to the LIRR mainline will help Long Island commuters. But the biggest beneficiaries will be NYC residents. With a third track, the LIRR will be able to offer meaningful reverse-commute services, something that hasn't yet been possible.
(LIRR vs. TA) A Democratic Governor could easily get the city's representatives to agree to eliminate the TA in exchange for more money for health and social service non-profits. A Republican Governor could do the same, by agreeing to a smaller level of cuts in those programs.
Seriously, while I agree that the MTA is not as bad a deal as the Port Authority, and that the bigger issue is the low level of spending on transportation in general, I am concerned about what happens when the city and other jurisdictions put their money in a pot and then fight over it.
I think what we need is an additional revenue stream dedicated to transportation improvements (as opposed to operations or maintenence), with city and suburban money separate. Then we can fund all the stuff that everyone needs, and provide a lot of jobs in the process. Health and social services employment in NYC is rising 20,000 per year, with much of it funded by grabbing more public dollars. How about hiring an extra 20,000 to 40,000 construction workers in the next few years instead?
[I think what we need is an additional revenue stream dedicated to transportation improvements (as opposed to operations or maintenence), with city and suburban money separate.
Then we can fund all the stuff that everyone needs ...]
You won't get an argument from me on this point ... for those with short memories this is all Grorge Patakis' fault. He balanced the budget & made a name for himself (nation wide) so that now he thinks he's presidential material, but meanwhile we're one of the few major cities in the nation that isn't building or extending mass transit lines. My pal Rudy has a slightly different attidude, but without Georges votes at the MTA not much is going to happen, and then there's Georges' pal Virgial. We can't expect much independant thinking there.
Disclaimer: Better remind you folks that I'm speaking for myself and not for the DOT, Rudy's election commitee or the MTA.
P.S. Larry, you got me excited about this one :-)
Mr t__:^)
(Rudy's transportation policy) is that he is interested in improvments as long as someone else pays for it. It's not an unreasonable position, given that lots of taxes paid by city residents flows through other places and doesn't come back. One could say that by in effect disowning the MTA and cutting off the money, he forced the Governor (who has the power) to take charge. But that doesn't make Rudy a transport advocate. Rudy knows about crime, budget cutting, and welfare reform. He doesn't know about management, but he does know it exists. But on land use and infrastructure, Rudy is DOA. (Rumor has it that Bobby Wagner, who was close to Rudy, understood those issues, but he died before Rudy took office, and that was that). If the next Mayor is Hevesi, public works might get a better deal.
If you look at the way the 'new' Mineola Blvd. overpass was built, it's pretty obvious that it was built to accommodate a 3rd track through Mineola. My feeling is that ultimately, the eastbound platform at Mineola will become an Island platform. The new passenger X-over also appears to have been built with this in mind.
<<< Today, on the west side of the overpass, they
apparently dropped the frog for a new switch that will be installed just east of Merrilon Avenue. Since they replaced the Mineola Blvd. Bridge, I assume that
the 3rd track will be going through Mineola Sta. and out to Hicksville. >>>
The third track is just going to be a siding, between Mineola and Merrilon Ave. I assume for the most part, it will be used for Oyster Bay trains terminating at Mineola, which currently have to go all the way to Queens tower for staging -- probably 10 miles.
Of course, this probably will mean more O.B. trains terminating at Mineola, which sucks for us. We'll probably end up getting Huntington locals as connections, and having to stop at Merrilon and NHP, like we do for our current mineola transfer rush hour train.
I got one of the videos listed on this site. I noticed there is some white thing on half the end of the axel but couldn't tell what it was. Is it for safety? It makes it easy to tell from a distance if the train is moving.
Suprisingly, that's exactly what it's for. It tells that the wheels are turning instead of dragging. We used to paint the rim of the wheel but some guys eventually started painting white-walls which did no good. This stays cleaner and is more visible
Where can I get the best Conductor book for the upcoming exam?
What ever happened to that kid who got busted for spelling the motormans' job a few years ago, also what about the motormen who let him do this.
There was a thread a month or so back about it. No one on SubTalk ever came to a definitive conclusion, although as I recall the facts of the matter were that the motorman didn't know anything about it until he got back from vacation and found an overtime paycheck reflecting that run (since the youth had signed in using the motorman's number). He reported the incorrect paycheck to his supervision, and they were eventually able to trace it back. The youth had been trained, unofficially of course, by the motorman, who never suspected that he would pull such a stunt. It's too bad that he did, because it appears that he would ultimately have made an excellent motorman - a path that I assume is permanently closed to him now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The last thing I heard about 'the kid who stole the subway' is that his anti-social behavior landed him ultimately in the slammer. Alot of politicos (and the press) came to the kid's defense, seeing that he had potential as a future TA man. However, a couple years after the subway incident, he had pulled a knife on some other kid over a dice-game argument. Needless to say, this time the public wasn't so lenient (and rightly so) on the kid's actions.
I am still waiting to one day see this story done as a motion picture -- or a TV-movie as it is still a remarkable and unusual "subway story".
Perhaps Rosie Perez will produce the venture!
Hey, does anyone know how frequent, if at all, the R110As and Bs are used, or "tested"?
Well I haven't seen the R 110A on the west Side that much. I think there just getting ready for the R142'S.
I heard on CBS that the mother of Kendra Webdale (I believe that was her name), has filed a $20,000,000 lawsuit. Suprisingly, she has named the New York City Transit System in this suit. If you remember, this is the young lady that was pushed in front of a train a few months ago by an alegedly mentally disturbed individual.
Gee, this is something I never thought would happen!!
Doesn't make any sense and that why she looking for $$$$$$ from MTA but that not MTA fault.
Oh, well, In our litigious society the vampires (Attorneys) go right for the deep pockets -- ***Anything to $core BUCK$$$**** Too bad they can't get it out of the cupcake who pushed Ms.Webdale off the platform. He is the one who should PAY PAY PAY PAY PAY throw him in a dark hole and throw in a burger every day for food.
I'll drink to that.
I won't necessary drink to that (as others have proposed) but I'll second that opinion. That unrepentant maggot deserves a lobotomy at the very least and solitary confinemnent. Bad bad brain!
Wayne
Look, how to handle the mentally ill is a difficult issue. Certainly this guy should have been made to take his medicine, and certainly he should be institutionalized now to make sure this doesn't happen again. But hostility and blame are not the answer.
Based on people I know personally, one of the problems with mental illness is denial, and failure to take the medicine. The medicines are blunt instruments with miserable side effects. That, plus the social stigma, leads people to go off. While most don't end up doing something violent, many end up on the street.
Yelling "off with his head" after the fact doesn't solve the problem.
Yes, I spoke rashly there. Of course I was venting; that was a horrible crime and it made me very, VERY angry, especially at those who failed to follow up AND at the perpetrator for his willfulness in not taking his medication. Sorry if the steam I blew off went in the wrong direction, but it does not lessen my disgust for those responsible in this incident.
Wayne
The Miscreant was judged sane enough to stand trial. Unfortunately, he is not elligable for the death penalty...
Actually, from my point of view, the people who bear the real responsibility for this incident are the activists, psychiatrists, legislators, judges etc. who foisted "deinstitutionalization" on society back in the 1970s and thereabouts. They made it practically impossible for the mentally ill to be committed and closed most of the mental hospitals. This is their legacy.
She's not looking for the money; she's dead! The family is suing. I believe our Mr. Esq :) posted a while back about the why and how of naming all involved parties in the suit. It's just for fact-finding.
-Hank
OK, John Bredin, Esq. it's your turn to comment on this legal matter.
That is a ridiculous lawsuit and has no merit. NYCT is not responsible for the action of a bum. This worthless mentally disturbed individual MUST be made to pay the price for his or her action. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY AND NOT PUT IT ON SOMEONE ELSE.
These blood sucking attorneys will milk this case. The plaintiff should drop the case immediately and not make her attorney rich. If people stop sueing, then the lawyers would have to get a job that they would be productive and responsible to society.
By the way, as a matter of fact, attorneys put there client(s) through more misery than the incident they are involved in. The legal process is a game of tug of war and playing chicken with the other side.
A transit property is never responsible for people jumping off platforms or being pushed by others.
I must have read the news accounts wrong but I understood it that the family is suing HHC not the T.A. Can someone clarify this?
Both were named in the $20,000,000 lawsuit.
Suprise, Surprise!
I got the answer to one of my LIRR questions today. The new Bi-Levels, whether they are the 4000 series (coaches) or the 5000 series (cab cars) are designated as "C-3s"
According to an ordiarilly reliable source, I have heard of a criminal case which is currently going on in Brooklyn. Apparently during a bar fight, some time ago, five (5) NYPD officers from the Brooklyn South Taskforce pegged some shots at an unarmed male in the bar. They then chased him through the streets and into the subway where he fell in front of a train and was killed. It comes as no surprise to me that I have heard nothing of this case in the media due to the circumstances involved. My Question:
Has anyone heard anything about this case and can provide reliable details?
I heard of this. Apparently, it was originally called a suicide, until several witnesses came forward and described the actions of the officers involved.
-Hank
Yes but in light of the recent Amadou D'allou shooting, can you explain why this case has received virtually no press coverage?
There was plenty of publicity at the time. The victem and all the police were black, so there was no racial problem.
[Yes but in light of the recent Amadou D'allou shooting, can you explain why this case has received virtually no press coverage?]
For the simple reason that there was no racial element. All of the off-duty cops and the victim were black. Believe me, if Amadou Diallo had been white, he would have been quickly buried and forgotten.
Interesting aside: When I first heard that a woman named Kendra Webdale had been shoved in front of a subway by a man named Andrew Goldstein, my immediate thought was, Oh terrific, now there's going to be a huge racial hue and cry. I assumed that the victim was black, from her name. When I then found out that she was white, I actually was relieved - and I'm now angry at myself for being relieved.
Yes, I recall this incident. Apparently, the cops were off-duty and supposedly had been told by one of the workers at the establishment to quiet down their party as it was disturbing other patrons. The officers supposedly became abusive and one thing led to another where the bar-person was chased outside and fired upon.
What is not clear is the death on the subway tracks of the man the officers were chasing. The reason is that the man's death on the tracks came some time after the initial altercation on the street. Was it a case of the man losing his sanity (due to the trauma of being fired at) and jumping in front of a train, or perhaps the cops waited him out -- only to resume their pursuit of the man some time later whereupon he was chased onto the tracks of an oncoming #2 train? This is the mystery.
If I am correct, the bar/restaurant was located on Nostrand Ave. along the Flatbush branch of the IRT. The station of the incident was at Sterling St.
I believe the guy fell at the Sterling Street station. Don't know if he was trying to cross the tracks to get to the other side or what???
This evening I boarded the 8th and last car of the 5:47 Jamaica (5:29 out of Hunterspoint Ave.) electric train to Ronkonkoma. The air conditioning wasn't working and the heaters were blasting away. It was HOT! The train was fairly crowded and I noticed that the door of the motorman's cab and the inside window were propped open to allow some air to circulate, so, as any true railfan would do, I sat in the motorman's seat facing out the rear of the train for my 15 minute ride to Mineola. The best part was that the digital speedometer was on - we hit a top speed of 75 at New Hyde Park station and were doing over 70 all the way from Floral Park to Merillon Ave.
[This evening I boarded the 8th and last car of the 5:47 Jamaica (5:29 out of Hunterspoint Ave.) electric train to Ronkonkoma. The air conditioning wasn't working and the heaters were blasting away. It was HOT! The train was fairly crowded and I noticed that the door of the motorman's cab and the inside window were propped open to allow some air to circulate, so, as any true railfan would do, I sat in the motorman's seat facing out the rear of the train for my 15 minute ride to Mineola. The best part was that the digital speedometer was on - we hit a top speed of 75 at New Hyde Park station and were doing over 70 all the way from Floral Park to Merillon Ave.]
I was riding in the 7th car of that train today. You were right about the heating, I'd say it was a good 85 degrees in the car. Not that I'm complaining too much. I try whenever possible to get the 5:23 to Long Beach from Penn, connecting to the 5:47 at Jamaica (I transfer to the Greenport shuttle, to Medford, at Ronkonkoma). It's a lot better than jamming onto the grossly overcrowded 5:41 express, which is the last Greenport connection.
I am surprised about the speed. I had figured it at maybe 60 mph on the stretch to Mineola. 75 sounds a lot better :-)
I rode the G shuttle today between Hoyt and Bedford-Nostrand. The shuttle on the northbound (E-2) tracks makes all stops from Hoyt to Bedford and then runs south against the current of traffic with passengers nonstop to Hoyt. The shuttle on the Souhtbound (E-1) track makes all stops from Bedford to Hoyt and then runs nonstop back to Bedford. The trains carry a "Shuttle" reading on the end roll signs to differentiate them from the regular G which turns on the middle (E3/4) track at Bedford. The LCD display on the cars carries either a shuttle or express display. Paper notices at Hoyt advise passengers that the exp to Bedford leaves from the Smith St bound platform. Conductors announce the trains as expresses in the appropriate direction. This is the first time that I know of that the G has had a kind of express service since the short-lived World's Fair service for the 1964 Fair which ran non-stop from Hoyt to Roosevelt where there was a transfer to the #7.
Larry,RedbirdR33
An addendum to Larry's note: I rode the last Saturday. The shuttle is held down by just one train on weekends; a six-car R-46, two-person operation on the Brooklyn-bound track. The express described by Larry is a weekday-only service. By the way, the Court Street to Nostrand train I rode on Saturday was a four-car R-46, OPTO consist.
Todd:The two shuttles that I saw both had six car consists with a T/O at each end. The regular G had only four cars. I thought that was a little bit strange.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Redbird: 4 car trains are OPTO from picked jobs. The 6 car shuttles are extras on the assignment sheets with a 3 person crew to get those trains in & out of all stations as efficiently as possible. Plus, the shuttle is from a seperate budget, something all superintendents are very aware of.
That's the first time I've ever heard of a World's Fair GG express service. Then again, why not?
The reaction of the demographers across the floor at City Planning to the Yugoslavian crisis: if the State Department creates a former Yugolslavia refugee category, lots of em will be coming over. Albanians. Croats. Anti-Milosovich Serbs. Etc.
Thanks to all the immigrants, NYC is one of the few older cities that isn't depopulating. But immigrants from the former Yugoslavia traditionally head for Chicago. Don't tear down the Els yet.
BTW in NYC, Isrealis and Arabs always live in the same neighborhoods. Confronted with New York, they decide they have more in common with each other than with anyone else. I wonder if they'll be a little Kosovo somewhere on the West Side.
[The reaction of the demographers across the floor at City Planning to the Yugoslavian crisis: if the State Department creates a former Yugolslavia refugee category, lots of em will be coming over. Albanians. Croats. Anti-Milosovich Serbs. Etc.
Thanks to all the immigrants, NYC is one of the few older cities that isn't depopulating. But immigrants from the former Yugoslavia traditionally head for Chicago. Don't tear down the Els yet. ]
New York is likely to pick up a large number of Albanians. There's a sizeable Albanian community in the Bronx, and in some of the nearby parts of Westchester County. I believe the Bronx community is centered in the Belmont neighborhood, which means they'd have better transit access if the Bronx portion of the Third Avenue El hadn't been demolished :-)
Connecticut also has many Albanians. My former hometown, Waterbury, has had an Albanian community for decades, though not in any particular neighborhood. The community started out with people fleeing Communism right after the end of World War II, and has been reinforced by immigration in the postwar decades. Unlike the case with other white ethnic groups, their language hasn't been lost after the first generation.
So, you're from Waterbury. I lived in Cheshire for 4 1/2 years and used to come to Waterbury a lot. There was a sizable Lithuanian population in that city as well; St. Joseph's is their parish.
[So, you're from Waterbury. I lived in Cheshire for 4 1/2 years and used to come to Waterbury a lot. There was a sizable Lithuanian population in that city as well; St. Joseph's is their parish.]
I lived in Waterbury until mid-1997 and still own property there. St. Joseph's church is still there (only church I've ever heard of that has a public bowling alley in the basement), but there's no longer much of a Lithuanian presence in the surrounding neighborhood, called Brooklyn. It's mostly Puerto Rican now, and is moving fast on the proverbial economic ladder of success ... unfortunately, the direction of movement is not up :-( Most of the Lithuanian population has been assimilated by now and lives elsewhere.
Dunno if you've been back there recently, but Waterbury's definitely not the place it used to be. It's pretty run down in many places, downtown in particular, never having fully recovered from the demise of the brass industry (in which it was the world leader) in the 1960s and 1970s. But things may be looking up; a big regional shopping mall opened about a year ago (on the site of the largest of the old brass mills), and there's been a spurt of residential construction in the outlying areas. And Cheshire's still a nice place.
Actually, the bowling alley is in the basement of the school building next to the church. It's a duckpin alley. What hurt the Lithuanian population was the fact that while the parents remained, their kids left town after they got married. Now the parents have died out. We lived in Cheshire from 1973 to 1978, and I really haven't been back to the Brooklyn area since 1979. I go through the city on I-84 during the fall while driving from NYC to UConn's Homecoming, but keep going.
Our old neighborhood in Cheshire still looks nice. It was brand new when we lived there.
P. S. The church I attend now has a restaurant, called the Padre, fittingly enough.
Cheshire also has an excellent example of a rails-to-trails conversion. Several years ago, the old Canal Line railroad south of Route 70 to the Hamden town line (~ 3 miles) was converted into a walking/running/biking trail. On weekends in nice weather, it attracts hundreds of people, so much so that the parking lots along the line are filled. What's interesting about the trail is that it's built next to a 1830s-vintage canal, parts of which have been restored. Next time you're in the area, you should try to check it out.
[But immigrants from the former Yugoslavia traditionally head for Chicago. Don't tear down the Els yet.]
A press release states that ridership on the CTA is UP. Increases have been achieved on the RT division, but also the first increase vs. decrease since 1985 happened on the bus division.
Of course everyone at CTA is handing out cigars and patting themselves on the back! The real test is to see if this trend continues, is a flash in the pan, or someone "cooked the books" (couldn't believe that would happen here).
I made a trip out to Chicagoland hobby shop this afternoon. On the return trip I took the #81 Lawrence bus back to Kimball/Lawrence and the Brown Line train.
Riding that bus takes you through neighborhoods resembling both Warsaw, Poland and Seoul, Korea. Yes, Chicago is made up of many people from many different places. And that is what makes living here so interesting!
Jim K
Chicago
And if you went through Marquette Park or, in the olden days, Bridgeport or Town of Lake, you'd think you were in Vilnius or Kaunas in Lithuania.
I was glancing through the TV guide and i found on Saturday April 10 at 1:30 a.m. on Channel 3 TNT in Manhattan N.Y., Nighthawks is on Starring the NYC Subway as always. If you are not up make sure your VCR's are on to catch our beloved NYC Subway.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Already own that one!
I own it. They made a slight change for the TV version in terms of background music at the discoteque. On the TV version, you can hear Brown Sugar by the Rolling Stones (or Rollingstons, as a couple of Denver radio personalities like to call them). I don't recall what the original version has for background music.
The subway sequence is intact on both, even if it's not totally accurate. You'll see Hoyt-Schermerhorn pull a quick change act; at the start of the sequence, it's disguised as 57th St., while at the end of the sequence, it's sporting 42nd St. signs. They used a train of R-1/9s signed up as a B.
Do you have any audio clips on the R-1/9s departing or arriving at the stations in .WAV format, by any chance?
Attention: If you obtained one of these, there are TWO & they're sold out :-(
- Photo of Fidel Castro "Kick back with a Cuban at your desk"
- Photo of Nelson Mandella "He's free for lunch"
I was able to find several used ones & have a couple of extras of the Mandella version.
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone have an update on the renovatins at the Fulton /B'way-Nassau station (or any other stations). Last time I was there about 1 month ago, they were just beginning to tile over some walls, and had cut through some exisiting walls.
Also, why is the 81st street/Museum of Nat. History station on the IND taking so long to complete (tiling, flooring, etc)....appears almost unchanged in last 6 months.
Michael B.
Why do we still have bulbs hanging from wires at Bway-Lafayette for that matter. That work was all but finished a while ago.
Does anyone have an update on the renovatins at the Fulton/B'way-Nassau station (or any other stations). Last time I was there about 1 month ago, they were just beginning to tile over some walls, and had cut through some exisiting walls.
A great deal of the new tiling in the connecting passageways looks done to me, and part of the ceiling in the area between the 4/5 and the J/M/Z has been repainted, making the passageway seem a lot brighter. The part of the wall that was removed on the ramp between the A and the 2/3 has been filled in with cinder blocks, but not yet tiled over.
The work has been moving around among the various stairways to/from the A train platform, and some of the A platform's concrete floor has been redone. Otherwise, there's still peeling ceiling paint and inadequate lighting (and platform-level rats) down there.
On William St just south of Fulton, it looks like they're digging up the sidewalk and redoing some of the gratings that used to leak water down into the 2/3 mezzanine area. In the 2/3 mezzanine itself I think the walls are being worked on; I can't actually see what's going on, but the already crowded and confusing area around the Fulton/William stairwells is now even more crowded and confusing.
Oh, and they redid the "step-aside" areas on the uptown 4/5 platform. :-)
- David
Nearby, the Park Place station on the 2/3 is shut down completely until October. I assume this is part of the overall renovation of the Chambers St/World Trade Center complex.
The Fulton & William entries certainly are the most awkward part of the complex. Why isn't the mezzanine under William Street continuous, instead of being split at either side of Fulton Street by bathrooms and other closed areas? Is there a sewer down the middle, or some such obstruction?
Michael --
The renovations at 81/CPW appear to be about on schedule. The entrances at 81st are scheduled to open on Monday, and workers appeared to be putting the finishing touches on them as I walked by yesterday.
You're absolutely right about the walls and floors. It seems like nothing has happened inside the station in months. The sign that they posted at the 81st entrance indicates that work on the station will not be completed until December. I don't know whether that means they are going to close the Museum entrance next, or if they are finally going to start work on the walls/floors.
Chuck
They are working the new tile at 81st Street around the existing tablets, like they did up the line at 110th St-Cathedral Parkway.
The one I'm waiting for them to finish is 14th Street-8 Avenue. It looks like the work has stopped. I thought that by now I'd see studs or laths or at least survey marks on the walls for the new tile panels, which I assume will have a deep yellow band with a brown border. But as of March 27, nothing yet. They still have bulbs in yellow cages hanging from the ceilings in the mezzanine and the "L" transfer area is a mess. Speaking of which - does ANYONE know if they are going to re-do the "L" station there as a BMT station (as was done at Broad Street and Fulton/Nassau) or are they going to leave it IND-style?
Wayne
Believe it or not, they are working on 14th and 8th. This AM(4/8/1999) around 1045 they were working on the new lights on the downtown platform.
In another IND project, it looks like the new escalators at W4 are almost done- some of the plywood is down on the downtown platform.
Broadway/Nassau- This is an in-house job and is being done by the same people that did 5th ave BMT (The zoo animals) and there will be artwork. Stay tuned. Renovation is in the early stages.
Park Place- according to the offical brochure: The station is closed for renovations including escalator replacement.
Tremont Avenue D-- renovation in early stages.
As I get more info, I'll post updates.
What about the station renovation @ Utica Av on the and lines? Anybody know when that is taking place? I remembered a couple of years ago, there were people there to survey the scene but since then nothing has happened. I know the project includes elevators and artwork......
Maybe they decided that the Utica Avenue station on the and was better.
Have you seen that one? It is spectacular, to say the least. They went the whole nine yards in renovating that station. There's a whole page of it in the "line-by-line" Fulton Street IND section. Just go to Utica Avenue and Click - I don't remember the URL of the top of my head but I know it's out there - took and scanned all the photos myself.
Wayne
I think that more people use the IRT Utica station more than the IND station. The only thing that they did was put signs at the entrances and direction signs on the platforms....
81-CPW is taking so long because the TA is doing it with its own people.
The Jan/Feb issue of Metro, a trade mag., has a nice article about heavy rail mass transit in the US, incl. San Juan.
Question: What foreign city collaborates with NY in the design/spec of new subway cars ?
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
Stockholm, Sweden their subway cars are made by Adtranz.
D-Train
You saw the article ?
Mike Lombardi of the TA is quoted as saying "There ia a long history of close cooperation between our two agencies"
Source: Metro Mag., Jan/Feb '99 article by Cliff Henke.
Mr t__:^)
From the bizarre file...
Last evening I rode the MBTA Purple Line commuter rail from South Station to Mansfield (which is three stops before Providence). [By the way, wire has appeared at Mansfield in the past week.] Departing South Station, the Conductor came along to collect fares. The person in the seat in front of me said, "I'm low on cash -- will you take a check?" He declined, of course -- saying that checks can only be used at the ticket window for monthly passes and 12-ride discount tickets.
A few stops later, a gentlemen gets on at Route 128 and sits down across the aisle from me. The Conductor comes by to collect his fare, and, yup, he asks the Conductor if he'll take a check (for a $2.25 fare!).
In my five years of riding the commuter rail in Boston, I've never heard of someone on-board asking to pay by check. And in all my years of riding the LIRR, the same can be said. And it happened twice on one train last night!
Interesting. My older son (freshman at Duke University) came north on one of Amtrak's Silver Service trains in March. He planned about as far ahead as he usually does (which is to say, not very) and had a grand total of one dollar (mostly in pennies) in his pocket when he boarded the train in Rocky Mount. Come breakfast time (approaching Baltimore), he went to the diner and ordered, and then attempted to pay by check. Amtrak declined; fortunately for him, his tablemate was a grandmotherly type who was more than glad to help out a college kid with a big appetite. They apparently had a delightful conversation the remainder of the ride to Newark, with her telling stories about her rides on the old ACL Champion and other Florida trains of fifty years ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Amtrak may not take checks, but they will take a credit card on-board. They use the rounded handle of the hole-punch to rub an impression of the card on the carbon slip. It actually works very well! I thought that was pretty neat when I saw it....
Yes, I think my son did mention that "If I only had a credit card..." But you know how ready I am to let him have one!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know there have been lots of talk of the train getting R62A's but when it happen, how will it get to the ,, and trains? I know the only connection is with the at Queensboro Plz. The best route I came up with is that will run on the 60th Street tunnel to 57th, reverse direction, head onto 63rd St, reverse direction to 47th, reverse direction again, up Central Park express and Grand Concourse to the Grand Concourse Yard and change direction and head on the Jerome Ave line. Another alternative would be instead of going on the Concourse, it would run up to 207th St shop and reverse onto the Bway line. I am confused by what I just said. Could somebody come up with a better alternative?
Actually, you're on the right track, no pun intended. Assuming the 6th Ave. tie-in to the 63rd St. tunnel is finished, that would work. I understand there is another, albeit longer route: after switching to the BMT tracks at Queensboto Plaza, the IRT train goes all the way to Coney Island via the N line, then all the way back to the Bronx on the D line, to Concourse Yard, where it would go to the 4 line.
I was thinking of the same thing but I figured that will be too long, unless they run it on weekends when there is no running. It could run down Sea Beach and up the Brighton Express tracks.....
I believe that such transfer runs are done late at night so as to minimize service disruptions. You could also run that train up the F line, through the Rutgers St. tunnel, then switch over to the 6th Ave. express tracks at W. 4th or 34th Sts., and continue to the Bronx.
I'm not sure if this is a related anecdote, but this spring I've seen 7 trains running to Coney Island (ostensibly) on the N/R tracks at DeKalb avenue. Is this a regular process or is this in anticipation of the new trains?
Jordan
It's a regular process....Coney island does major overhaul, etc., work on all the cars.
How were cars moved between the IND and BMT before the IND was connected to the Culver? They had to be placed on trucks?
"How were cars moved between the IND and BMT before the IND was connected to the Culver? They had to be placed on trucks?"
Now that's a good question. Maybe they carfloated them from
207th Street Yard to Bush Terminal and onto the SBK?
Inquiring minds want to know!
On IND-BMT interchanging before the Culver connection, there was a switch in place at Ditmas Avenue that connected the northbound Culver (BMT) local track with a track going down the ramp into the IND. (The three Culver tracks turned west to go to Fourth and Fifth Avenues.) I never saw trains use the ramp, but I was told in the early 1950s that it was used for interchange between the IND and BMT. And it had a functioning home signal. I don't think the third rail was energized except when there was equipment movement.
Moving the R-11s had to be done some way other than by truck as the train was shifted between the two divisions. Moving eight or ten cars by truck would have been quite a project--just figuring where to load and unload boggles the mind.
Does anyone remember whether the R-10s were delivered to Brooklyn (South Brooklyn via McDonald Av surface into Coney Island shops and then via Culver elevated onto the ramp to Church Av) or to 207th Street yard? I know that pre-war R-cars were car-floated into 207th. But I raise this question because I can remember subway cars with the orange stripe (used on R-10s, R-12s, and R-14s) being moved along the McDonald Avenue streetcar tracks at Avenue P or Quentin Road toward Coney Island when I was a kid, but can't remember whether there were three or four sets of side doors. Since the BMT was by then the only connection to the Corona-Flushing Line, those cars could have been the IRT model, but because of the Ditmas ramp connection, they could have been R-10s just as easily.
I sometimes think I should undergo hypnosis to rediscover those confused and buried memories--but would car numbers have registered?
8-)
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
How long was that connection ramp there? Was it built at the same time as the IND? (I did remember reading that the ramp was there before the conncetion, but I didn't know there was working track on it).
I don't know when the ramp was put in; it was there in the late 1940s. It certainly would have made it a lot easier moving the 150 or so R-1s over to the BMT for Fourth Avenue service. Somewhere I have a photo I took with a little Ansco or Kodak camera back then on the northbound platform at Ditmas which would show the home signal (it's a bad picture; the film didn't advance and there's a double exposure--the overlay is a PCC car on the 16th Avenue Loop downstairs from the Ditmas platform)--but I have to find it. Assuming the home signal is visible (I think it is), the number of the signal should be there. I'll get back when it resurfaces.
The track was there--whether working or not, I have only what I was told by people in the old BMT Trainmaster's Office at 370 Jay Street.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
In retrospect, if they had kept the Culver right of way, they could have rebuilt the connections, reversing their directions to send the West End go to Manhattan via the F, bypassing the Manhattan Bridge. But now there are new homes in the way on one block, ruining the whole thing.
Never break up a Right of Way!
There is also the 60th street tunnel connection between the BMT Broadway line and the IND Queens Blvd. line, though I don't know when the connection was put in (1950's?).
Responding to Subfan, the 60th St connection was opened after the Culver connection, so it wouldn't have been available for R-1, R-10, or R-11 movements.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
How, then, were the R-1 cars moved from the (then unopened)
Independent System's rails to the B.M.T. for testing
on the Sea Beach line during the 1930's
IIRC they were carfloated from 207th St. to Bush Terminal, then via the SBK to Coney Island.
anyone know the exact date?
The connection btwn Church Av and Ditmas Av was opened for service on October 30, 1954.
Te connection btwn Lexington Av and Queens Plaza(IND) was opened for service on December 1,1955.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One of our regular posters rode on the first revenue Brighton local through that new 60th St. connection. Don't remember who it was. I like Brian Cudahy's comment in Under the Sidewalks of New York: "For the first time, the compatible rolling stock of the two divisions shared common trackage. Trains of BMT standards began running on John Hylan's municipal subway, intermixed with trains of IND R units." Compatible in the sense that IND and BMT tunnels were built to the same dimensions. Does anyone know if clearance checks were done to ensure that 67-foot cars could, in fact, operate on IND trackage without any, shall we say, hangups?
As far as I know, the IND had built to the BMT clearances from the start. 60 foot cars were an economy measure. If you look at R1's you'll see that almost every thing on them was industry standard at the time. The new IND was taking no chances.
The idea of "recapturing" lines that the BMT owned was forefront in their minds, I think that had a lot to do with it. Dave"Mr. Train Control" Rosenthal might know more about it.
I was on the first revenue Brighton Local through the 60th Street Tunnel connection. It was right on schedule, so I would assume they ran a clearance train through earlier. There was no speech-making or celebration, so far as I recall; it was very early, maybe around 6:00 a.m. when the first train went through. (Personal aside: I had neglected to tell my parents I would be riding it and they thought I had run away from home; why they thought that, I never could figure out. I really got yelled at when I got home from school that day.)
It was quite different the day the Culver ramp opened; there were 'dedication' ceremonies with a TA member (Klein, if I recall), local politicians, and the TA band. A small group of us stayed in the station for several hours before they finally got the track connected, the clearance checked, and everything ready to go. It was impossible to leave because the first train might go at any time. The "celebrities" and the TA Band didn't stay around for the actual opening or first train and I had to convince the operator (officially 'motorman' back then) to change the head-end sign from 'F' to 'D' for the newspaper photographers there.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Ptosdam
Wasn't the D already running to Church Ave. just before the Culver connection opened?
Steve B. writes, "Wasn't the D already running to Church Ave. just before the Culver connection opened?"
As I recall, it was running to Church only for a few hours that morning because the connection wasn't finished, slowed up in part because of the constant drizzle, they told us. (In my earlier post, I mentioned that the train on the express track that was used for the newspaper pictures still had its 'F' sign on the front and they actually accepted a correction from a teenager--guess I was persuasive enough.)
If memory serves, the D was still running to Hudson Terminal (Chambers St.) until that morning and part of the Culver opening was to exchange D and F, with F going to Broadway-Lafayette instead of right down 6th Avenue the way the D used to.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
(signing off till Monday)
So, where did the F terminate before the big date if the D ran to Hudson Terminal?
I bring this up because my 1948 Hagstrom's map lists the D's terminals as 205th St. and Church Ave., while the F was listed as running to Hudson Terminal and the E to Broadway-Lafayette. I guess they wanted utilize the 8th Ave./6th Ave. connection just past W. 4th St.
Immediately prior to connecting the Culver with the IND, the F train ran to Church Avenue. After the connection, the D replaced the F to Church Avenue and Coney Island via the Culver. The F was cut back to Broadway-LaFayette, although at some point the F ran one station further to Houston-2nd Avenue. I don't know wether or not the D originally ran to Church Avenue before the F did. But, immediately prior to the opening of the 6th Avenue Subway, the E was the line that ran to Church Avenue.
Where did the D run to before that?
I believe a previous posting mentioned that the D may have run to Hudson Terminal before the Culver connection. If that was the case (I don't personally remember), the E probably ran to Broadway-LaFayette on the Houston line.
Ed,
Was that first train consist of ABs? I vaguely remember seeing ABs on the Queens Blvd line in the early 1960s. Could I be right?
Thanks, Mike H
When the BMT was first extended to Continental Avenue on the IND, AB standards were in use, so that is what you no doubt saw. I don't have the precise timeline handy, but the standards were probably replaced by the then new R-27/30's.
Larry Littlefield's comment about running West End service via part of the old Culver into Church Avenue is almost a version of one of the IND proposed connections--the Fort Hamilton Parkway-Tenth Avenue Line, coming off the IND at the south end of Prospect Park. That would have been a replacement for the elevated West End, most likely.
That was probably designed as another way of "recapturing" a BMT route by the City, like the Culver and Dual Contracts Fulton.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
(Just home from two days of joy riding in Toronto and at the Halton County Radial Railway in Guelph, Ontario)
Ed...Could you expand a little more re: the Ft. hamilton-10th Ave. connection? Was this part of the IND second system?
Carl M.
I recently saw the movie "The Icestorm".
Two scenes in the film take place on a Metro-North train(to New Canaan, CT). On the side, the train was designated property of the Penn Central railroad. This was supposedly set in the 70's. Is this accurate?
Penn Central was in existance through 1976 and much of the equipment wasn't relettered until 1980 (really, a lot wasn't relettered at all, it was simply scrapped). I rode a Metro North train from GCT to Croton-Harmon one afternoon in 1979 that had coaches still lettered New York Central, along with others showing PC on the letterboards. (The morning train inbound included a dead Beeliner mid-train being used as one of the coaches.) And there were Budd-type cars still lettered for NH on other trains at the Croton-Harmon yard. Older-style commuter coaches in PC green were in abundance; many, I believe, were ex-Pennsy but I'm not 100% sure of that. The only visible evidence of the PRR that day was under the badly peeling paint of a PC B-unit on a siding.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Any MU type commuter coaches were definately NOT from the PRR. The PRR used MP-54s on the 11kv overhead system. They would be useless as MUs on either the old NYC or New Haven lines.
I remember that day in 1968 when Penn Central came into existence, it seemed like it wasn't a week before all the green/yellow-striped m.u. cars working the NYC were relettered Penn Central (all the did was block out N E W Y O R K with some dark green paint, and used the same style of P E N N to replace it). I was in Cardinal Hayes H.S. at the time and had an outstanding view of the NYC/PC/NH lines; too bad they didn't have courses in school for railroading at the time!
I recently read the 1994 novel the movie is based on (the title is the same). Although set in November, 1973, the author twice refers to the trains to New Canaan as "Conrail"!
The train in the movie is one of the modern MUs used on the New Haven lines. Were those in service in 1973? I seem to remember them coming in a year or two later.
<< The train in the movie is one of the modern MUs used on the New Haven lines. Were those in service in 1973? I seem to remember them coming in a year or two later. >>
Yes. I have some pictures showing the M-2's in use in 1973. I believe M-2's were placed in service either in 1972 or 1973.
Some of the scenes in the movie, which show the train stranded in a storm, obviously use models. The model maker gets a credit in the closing credits. Other scenes are filmed on location at Grand Central and New Canaan. The location shots show the M-2s with Penn Central "PC" logos. I thought that before Metro-North, those cars only used MTA logos.
To Everyone:
I am a student at Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism, and reporting for the school's weekly newspaper, Bronx Beat. I am trying to identify specific and ongoing, and ideally unreported or underreported, subway service problems in the Bronx, such as, for example, long waits on weekends for No. 5 trains that run all the way up to Dyre Avenue. (I am aware that the TA turned thumbs down to nightly restaffing of token booths on the upper stretches of the 5; as far as I can tell, that issue is dead for now.)
If there is anything about Bronx train service about which I may wish to be aware, kindly E-mail me at jes132@columbia.edu. Please be specific. So that I may follow up, kindly indicate your name, occupation, part of the Bronx in which you live, and phone number if I may call you back. Please also indicate whether I may quote directly from your E-mail. Thank you.
Sincerely,
/s/
Jonathan Stempel
E-mail: jes132@columbia.edu
One issue in the Bronx that Bronxites may not be aware of. If LIRR gets a connection to Grand Central, there will be capacity available to run Metro North trains to Penn Station (via the Amtrak line on the New Haven Line and via the Hudson Line and the West Side). In that case, it would be possible to open Metro North stations with direct service to Penn Station at Morris Park, Pelham Parkway, City Island Road, etc. You can see where the Amtrak tracks go on a Hagstom.
East Bronxites might appreciate a "premium" option, especially those riding the NY Bus Service express buses today. With the discounted commuter rail to subway MetroCard, an East Bronx service would be faster than express buses. It would be like the Harlem and Hudson Line service the Bronx gets now.
There is no guarantee that Metro North will get Penn Station slots. First of all, the LIRR connection to GCT won't open till at least 2010, so don't be so fast to built those stations. Second, both Amtrak and NJT are looking to increase service into Penn from the Jersey side. Third, LIRR needs additonal total capacity into Manhattan, not a trade-off with Metro North (which has additional unused capacity in GCT, especially since they kicked out Amtrak's NY State service and moved it to Penn).
Now delays on the No.5 Line is a Combination of things. On Weekend the No.5 Trains run anywhare from 8 to 12 Minutes apart. Also with weekend Trackwork the No.5 trains are delayed or rerouted or have spilt service. In the Bronx theres been trackwork regarding Modernizing the Signal Systerm on the No.2 White Plains Road Line. I'm not sure how far they got on the project.
On the No.4 Line there been lots of Trackwork up there which is causing the No.4 trains to make 161 St-Yankee Stadium its last stop for the past couple of weekends including this weekend with the Yankee's playing.
I don't know the nature of the work.
On the No.1 Line theres been weekend delays because of electrical work being done North of 116 Street and Broadway. This weekend there's Spit service from 137 Street to Dyckman Street
No.4 Trains have been turning at Burnside Ave Not 161 Street. I was think about 3 weekends ago. I checked with the NYCT web site because it didn't make sence to turn trains at Yankee Stadium if the had a Yankee home game at 1PM.
Sorry about that.
To Pelham Bay Dave R36 9506. The No 4 train had track work on the following weekends March 19-20-21, March 26-27-28 and April 2-3-4 from Woodlawn Road to 161 St from 10pm friday to 10 pm sunday night on the above dates. Those who used the # 4 train from Woodlawn Road to 161st were told to use the D train. To get to/from Woodlawn Road and Mosholu Ave stations passengers used a shuttle bus to Bedford Park Blvd to get the D train.
Work is now complete cause all GO's are gone from the Bedford Park Blvd station of my home D train.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Sorry for bad news but there is another GO for several weekends--the 4 will end at Burnside and free shuttle bus to Woodlawn making subway stops including Bedford Park 4 and Bedford Park D.
Which ones? That means I have to use the "D" next time I go to visit Looie up at Kingsbridge Terrace. The thought of an R68 absolutely thrills me. There's a plus factor to this: maybe THIS time I can get some meaningful Concourse Line photos. I'll start with Fordham and Tremont (the land of missing tiles).
Wayne
every weekend from 6am Saturday till 10pm Sunday until the weekend of May 1 and 2, 1999.
Try cathing an uptown D train at Rockefeller center around 5:30.
I spotted the new NJT Light Rail vehicle at harrison- near the PATH Station- the unit number was 2006 A and 2006B- articulated cars. It was white with the NJT Diagonal stripe with smoked windows. It was on a flatbed trailer.
ALso spotted at their MMC were several MARC Bi-Level cars--maybe they are testing bi-levels for clearance?
I've heard that there is a stretch of track on the new Hudson-Bergen light rail line that's electrified near the new Park and Ride lot near Liberty State Park. The new light rail vehicles are undergoing testing on that track, so if it can be found and seen, there is an opportunity to see the new vehicles in test service.
On the basis of a walk around Jersey City this week, I don't thing the cars will be seen there soon. There is much work to be done on either side of Exchange Place fot at least one mile
The line into Exchange Place won't be ready until next year. The test track runs from the shops near Liberty State Park to the Bayonne city line. There are a number of places along Garfield Avenue in Jersey City where this part of the line can be seen; for example, from the Chapel Avenue bridge. However, I don't think testing is very frequent yet, so there is no point in going out there unless you could find out from NJT when the runs will be.
I was just wondering if after the GREEN LINE- Lake Street Englewood, Jackson Park Line was reopened in 1996 after being rebuilt has there been any significant increases in ridership. Is there anyone out there that can answer what the ridership statistics are for each line. Supposedly they have experienced a ridership increase overlast year.Thanks for any help.
I am struck by how useful it is to use old route names (ie. the Culver) to refer to a particular area. After all, routes run to very different places, and frequently more than one route runs on a set of tracks. If one refers to the West End or Queens Blvd Line, its easy to know where you are talking about.
Somehow, the F line from Church to Jay doesn't have a name. You can call it the Culver, but that's not historically correct. It's like calling the Manhattan tracks used by the A and C the 9th Avenue El, instead of the 8th Avenue subway. So I think the set of tracks from Church to Jay deserves its own name. Any suggestions?
Yes, Call it the SLOW-LINE. Or perhapse, the HIP DEEP IN TRASH LINE. Or maybe the GOING EXPERESS WITHOUT AN ANNOUCNEMENT LOCAL.
Originally, the Jay St. to Church Av. stretch was called "Smith Street-Eighth Avenue Subway" and then "Brooklyn Line." When the Church-Ditmas connection was opened, the stations on the McDonald Avenue elevated sections all had diagonally painted wooden signs at street level--black on white, if I recall correctly--reading "Concourse-Culver." If one were going to use terminal areas, then perhaps "Hillside-Culver" would have a nice sound, but why not just use "Smith-Culver"? It has good historical roots and wouldn't tie the route to Queens Boulevard. (There might be an 'Inwood-Culver' someday!)
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
(Smith/Culver) We could call it the Smith/9th Line, and continue to call the original section the Culver, except Smith/9th is a station. How about the Cuite line, to honor the man who screwed Culver riders out of express service. That makes it the Cuite Culver.
[How about the Cuite line, to honor the man who screwed Culver riders out of express service. That makes it the Cuite Culver.]
Bad idea. Sounds way too much like "Cutie" :-)
The official IND designation for the stretch of line you refer to was the "IND South Brooklyn Line".
--Mark
(The official name is the South Brooklyn Line) I knew there had to be a name that was historically correct. Of course, some newcomers might be confused by the fact that the area the line goes through hasn't been "South" Brooklyn since the City of Brooklyn annexed towns to the south more than 100 years ago. Still, if we start calling it the South Brooklyn Line here, maybe it will catch on.
How about the 'Park Slope' line in honor of all the yuppies on 7th Avenue.
How about combining the above suggestions making it "South Park"
(Gee that has a familiar ring! :)
Seriously, one has to be pretty familiar with the history of the area to understand why the line is even called "Culver"! Thus the term "South Brooklyn" at least gives a geographic orientation which "Culver" doesn't. Then again "Sea Beach" doesn't really generate much of a geographic identity either.
"Brighton" and "West End" trains at least traverse those communities.
Some lines have 'always' been known by their destinations rather than routing or areas or neighborhoods, though sometimes it's hard to figure which is the earlier use--Canarsie, for example, or BMT Jamaica.
Other examples--The Brighton went to Brighton Beach; the Coney Island Express went to Coney Island; the Sea Beach went to the Sea Beach Palace; the Dyre Avenue goes to Dyre Avenue; Pelham trains go to Pelham and Astoria trains run through Astoria. Flushing goes to Flushing; on the old Fulton Street el, the section from Atlantic Avenue east to the Brooklyn/Queens line was called the "City Line."
Culver is probably the only route named for an individual, but there are also the Steinway tubes and the McAdoo tubes. And that strange station in Brooklyn on the Culver called 'Van Sicklen' which is probably named for a family but the spelling is different from the 'Van Siclen' on the Fulton and Jamaica lines.
Some other cities have onomastic curiosities, too--Chicago has used a variety of designations over the last century or so--sometimes directions, sometimes neighborhood names, some directional, some route names (Stockyards Shuttle, Evanston, Dan Ryan, South Side,for example--Jim K. or one of the other Chicago people can elaborate). Boston uses colors now, but the Blue Line was known by many as the 'Revere Beach' line; there was the 'Main Line Elevated,' now the Orange Line. Some of the newest systems seem thus far to have avoided multiple names by sticking with colors--it's difficult to put names on the Washington Metro routes or the Los Angeles (though the 'Blue Line' in LA can easily be thought of the 'Long Beach Line') This is an interesting topic not treated too often in historical studies.
BTW, does anyone have any historical evidence that any of the areas the BMT 'West End' runs through were ever known as the "West End" of Brooklyn? There's an old print one sees now and then of a steam locomotive on the West End stopping at "Bensonhurst-by-the-Sea."
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed: There is a reference to this in "The Brooklyn Elevated" by James Greller and Edward Watson. Apparentl when the Brooklyn,Bath & Coney Island Railroad was openned it ran between 25 St/5 Av and an amusement park in the "West End" of Coney Island. It was renamed the Brooklyn,Bath and West End in 1885.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks, Larry, for the 'West End' info; I guess I didn't recall seeing that in the 'Brooklyn Elevated' book. I wonder what the name of the amusement park was or why 'west end' was ever chosen (although the 'Sea Gate' and 'Norton's Point' names from the western tip of Coney Island may have already been taken by other operators). Last summer, when I went to Dallas to ride McKinney Avenue and the DART lines, it felt odd to walk from the light rail station into a refurbished factory and loft area called 'West End'; it's short walk from Dealy Plaza (of JFK assassination notoriety).
On a related topic, in an earlier post I had mentioned the proposal for a Ft. Hamilton Parkway-Tenth Avenue line for Brooklyn, which I had been first told about in the 1950s. I'm fairly sure it's also been mentioned by others here on Subtalk within the last six or eight months, perhaps with a map reference, but I haven't been able to find it by a search. It was not part of the IND Second System, so far as I know, but a later version of expansion, maybe a 'Third.' (There's a good article on the Second System, by the way, done by a Subtalker elsewhere in nycsubways.) I'll keep an eye out for the information.
Final comment on 'F' naming--even though I was the first to mention it here, I still like "Smith-Culver" for its historical ring.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed: As regards the Ft Hamilton Pkwy-10 Av Line I'm going to paraphrase what info is in the NYD Bulletin of Jun 60.
1)FORT HAMILTON PARKWAY-10th AVENUE LINE ;Construction and equiptment of a 2 track subway from 37 St to 86 St,Bklyn;this would connect with the following.
2)WEST END LINE-SMITH ST CONNECTION; Const and equipt of a 2 track subway and ramp connection btwn the West End Line and the Smith St-Prospect Park Line along Fort Hamilton Pkwy,Bklyn.
The Fort Hamilton Pkwy Line was also have a connection at 69 St and Ft Hamilton Pkwy with
3)BROOKLYN-STATEN ISLAND TUNNEL: Const and equipt of a 2 track subway and river tunnel from New Brighton to 4th Av and 68 St Bklyn, or as in other proposals to the Ft Hamiton Pkwy Line at 69 St.
This is taken from a report from the Board of Transportation to the City Planning Commission dated July 16,1940.
To Larry,Redbird R-33, thanks for the reference--I was certain the Ft. Hamilton Pky proposal wasn't part of IND-2, and thought it came out of the later 1930s, so that much was more or less right. I've seen the route drawn on a map somewhere, too. Maybe I should see if the ERA could provide a photocopy of the June 1960 issue. (Was there a separate NYD back then?)
Thanks again,
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed: Yes there was. The New York Division has been publishing the Bulletin since 1958. The address to write is
New York Division
Electric Railroaders Association
PO Box 3001
New York,New York 10008-3001
I believe they will mail you a copy for a nominal fee.
they also have a website
http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era
Larry,RedbirdR33
[Ed: Yes there was. The New York Division has been publishing the Bulletin since 1958. The address to write is
New York Division
Electric Railroaders Association
PO Box 3001
New York,New York 10008-3001
I believe they will mail you a copy for a nominal fee.
they also have a website
http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era
Larry,RedbirdR33]
The fee is $1.50/issue. We go back to Vol. 1, No. 1, May, 1958.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association
And that strange station in Brooklyn on the Culver called 'Van Sicklen' which is probably named for a family but the spelling is different from the 'Van Siclen' on the Fulton and Jamaica lines.
... and it isn't even Van Sicklen anymore. It changed to "Neptune Ave/Van Sicklen" in the late '80s and is simply known as "Neptune Ave" today.
--Mark
"Chicago has used a variety of designations over the last century or so--sometimes directions, sometimes neighborhood names, some directional, some route names (Stockyards Shuttle, Evanston, Dan Ryan, South Side,for example--Jim K. or one of the other Chicago people can elaborate)."
The present naming system -- each line named after a color, with the side and front destination signs on the trains showing the name of the terminal station with a background of the line's color -- is somewhat logical, though not universally used by Chicagoans. It's handy for the tourists, though, because the red line on the map is the Red Line, the blue line on the map is the Blue Line, etc. CTA was using the colors consistently for each line on the maps, though not on the platform signs, long before they named the lines after the colors.
Another system they used was strictly directional: North-South, West-South, West-Northwest. Some old station signs (but not platform signs, which are kept relatively up to date) still have this. Yet another system that survives in a few signs was the neighborhood to or through which the line ran or the expressway where it ran on the median: Howard-Dan Ryan, O'Hare-Congress-Douglas, which was also variously called the Kennedy-Congress-Douglas (pre-1983) or the Milwaukee-Congress-Douglas (pre-1970) (IIRC, the latter survives on the sign over the basement-level entrance from the Daley Center to the subway), Lake-Englewood-Jackson Park, Ravenswood, Evanston. The "destination" sign would show what branch or leg of the line the train was headed for (i.e.: Congress "A", Douglas "B", Howard "A" or "B"), which wasn't completely helpful to tourists and new residents.
After the CTA changed over to the color system, they also changed some station names. Specifically: some suburban L stations named after the street they were on were renamed for the suburb itself: River Road became Rosemont, and Desplaines Avenue became Forest Park. Harlem terminal on the Green Line remained Harlem, and was not changed to Oak Park, because there already was an Oak Park Avenue station on the same line!
Mark: Thats very interesting. Do you have a list of any other "official" line names? Thanks
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'll check some of my sources (mostly Kramer's book on the building of the IND) and post them here.
--Mark
Of course, the IND under 8th Ave. has always been known as the 8th Ave. line, and because it opened first, this name stuck with the entire IND division. I'm not sure if it's still the case, but IND and 8th Ave. subway were virtually synonimous. Just like the R-10s and the A line...
The TA designates this as the Sixth Avenue Line according to the read signs posted at the end of each platform with a station diagram and emergency exit info. I always heard of it refered to as the "Smith Street Line" though.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How about the `Gowanus' F, since the ride over the canal is the best part of the trip between Chruch Ave. and Jay.
As I recall, maps from the early 1950s, prior to 1954, designated the line as "Brooklyn Line". After the connection between Church and Ditmas, maps showed it as the "Coney Island Line".
I still recall from the 50s and 60s that all of the entrances to IND stations all over the city still said "Eighth Avenue Subway", even though the 6th Ave. line had been open for many years, and some of the stations with these signs didn't have any 8th Ave. trains stopping at them (e.g., the stations from Bergen to Church on whatever you want to call the line that this thread is about).
- Ed Sachs
Those 8th Ave. Independent Subway System entrance signs lasted well into the late 70s. It was only at the entrances to the 6th Ave line where you didn't see the 8th Ave designation, just Independent Subway System.
I go along with "Culver-Park Slope" line. While they're at it - hang some new signs at 7th Avenue to read "7th Avenue-Park Slope", and send some plumber people or concrete people out there to plug up a couple of new leaks on the southbound side.
Wayne
(Park Slope Line) I think the only people who would be happy about calling the whole line the Park Slope Line are real estate agents. These days, if you want to find a Windsor Terrace house in the classified ads you have to look under Park Slope. If you look under Windsor Terrace, you get Kensington.
The expansion of Park Slope reminds me of all the developments named "Princeton" along route 1 in the 1980s, when I was in grad school at Rutgers. To further expand the prestige of the name, some wag suggested changing the name of the entire state to Princeton, so that Princeton would be Princeton, Princeton.
clean "East Village" Apts (between C & D or better still below Houston East of Allen.
I'd call the F line in Brooklyn the "Smith St/Culver Line". E.g. on those R46 signs it could read as thus:
F-To Coney Island (1st flashed reading)
F-6 Ave/Smith St-Culver Local (2nd flashed reading)
Variations would include destinations for Church Ave and Kings Highway
and a reading for a "6th Ave Lcl/Smith St-Culver Exp".
The thought of calling it the "Park slope Line" doesn't sit too well with me since the yuppies livng there (and in Cobble Hill) are hell bent on screwing working-class people in Windsor Terrace, Kensington, Parkville, West Midwood and Gravesend out of direct F express service between Kings highway and Jay Street during the rush hours everytime the TA pitches the idea every few seasons or so.
In any case, the F has a really nice (and liesurely) elevated trip thru Brooklyn.
I always though of it as the "Neo-Culver" line!
I guess the best name is "Smith-9th St line". Not so much because of the station, but because it turns from Smith to 9th St, and then the station name would come in handy to help people to right away know which line it is.
With respect to the 63rd St tunnel reconstruction, what are crossties?
How come the Transit Authotrity did not put these crossties in as part of the original plan?
What are crossties? This is obvious. They are railroad type ties.
In tunnel track construction, the TA uses 1/2 ties set into concrete to form a drainage channel. In the 63rd St tunnel, they used a new design concrete pad, instead of ties. The pads are falling apart and are being replaced be a different type of pad.
A couple of post ago, someone mention that at rush hour, and trains arrive at Franklin at the same time. The tower at Utica Av then sends one of these trains to Flatbush. I thought there was a tower at the front end of the New Lots/Flatbush bound platform at Franklin. What does this tower do when it comes to the trains? Is it still in effect?
Yes I believe I said that. The Tower that Controls The No.2,3,4,5 Lines at franklin Ave is Utica Tower which is on the South end of the SouthBound Platform at Utica Ave. I'm not sure how far Utica covers. But I know it covers the 3,4 Lines from Utica to Eastern Parkway at least and the No.2,5 to about Church Ave.(I haven't been in that tower for over 3 Years). That Office facing the Downtown 2,3,4,5, Plat. at Franklin Ave is just a Dispachors office and Holds trains sometimes and ask for call letters and Bug crews on why there late. I only seen a dispachor there weekdays's only. I usually aviod the Brooklyn Routes during the week. 2 summers ago I only did one trip to Brooklyn as a No.5 Super.
Way back in 1989 on one of my (unfortunately rare) visits to the city where I was born (New York) I had the opportunity to ride the JFK Express. I really enjoyed it, and thought it was a good idea. Afterall, I suspect that taking the A train from Manhattan all the way to Howard Beach/JFK stopping at all those stations would take a good deal of time. The JFK Express of course has since then stopped running. I assume that it was simply too expensive to operate, considering the number of passengers it received? And, how long does it in fact take the A train to make it from Howard Beach/JFK to W4th Washington Sq? (since the A doesn't run to 57th street). And how long did the JFK Express operate?
Just curious.
Regards, Chris
My wife has a life long friend who works for Con Ed & lives in Howard Beach. She use to take that train every day to work. I'll see if I can find out more details about the loads she experienced and why she paid the extra fare to ride it. I suspect it's similar to why my company has so many regulars who pay $3.00 for a coach ride from Queens to Manhattan.
Meanwhile someone else here will probably reply with the specifics of when the service ran.
Question: No has yet been able to tell me what the special token looked like that was used for the "Aqueduct Special", I suspect it was the same token used on Express buses. If not, I want one & have a number of old tokens from this area to trade !
Mr t__:^)
Main reason they caned the JFK express, it was being used as an express BUS with local residents paying the extra fare to ride.
That's no reason to end it. It was collecting money, and that was it's job. The problem was, really, they added A Express service in Brooklyn during the day. The JFK was no longer as 'express' as it was.
-Hank
Yes, it has been mentioned here several times that the Aqueduct Special tokens and the Express Bus tokens were one and the same.
Well, when I rode the JFK Express back in 1989 it wasn't a token (as in: coin) but a paper ticket. I still have both of them (JFK-Manhattan and Manhattan- JFK).
Regards, Chris
It was possible to use both for a while. When the S Aqueduct Special was discontinued in 1981 the JFK Express began stopping there. Passengers boarding at the Race Track could either purchase the $5.00 token or us a .75cent token and a discount ticket. The racetrack sold 20 trip ticket books for $37.50.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As I recall, the extra fare was collected on the train; in fact, this is pointed out on maps of that era. On a 3-car set of R-46s, everyone sat in the last car, and the conductor remained on that car and opened one set of doors at each station to take on passengers. He would say something like "Airport", but not on the PA system.
The unique thing about the JFK Express was that it used the 6th Ave. local-to-8th Ave. local connection, taking advantage of a little-used IND feature.
Dan, Thanks for the input. I must have missed the answer before.
P.S. I have a few of these if anyone out there wants to trade/buy them
Mr t__:^)
The JFK Express was a relatively expensive service to maintain. The cost for maintaining the service was underwritten by the Port of NY/NJ Authority as part of the operating expenses for JFK Airport. Unfortunately, the PA soon realized that the bulk of the users were not airline passengers but were customers from Long Island (who parked in the Long Term Parking at JFK) and residents of Howard beach who didn't mind paying a premium for deluxe subway service. Since the PA was subsidizing TA customers and was deriving little benifit from the funding, it was stopped.
How deluxe was it? I remember riding it only once, outbound to JFK, but I don't remember much about it. A brief refresher on the stops and timing would be nice, if someone would care to enlighten me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmmm... I'd have to look at one of my old maps to be sure of the stops, but I believe it was Queensbridge (after it opened), 57/6 (original termian before Queensbridge opened), 47-50/6, 42/6, 34/6, W4/6 [magic switch to "A" line], Broadway-Lafayette, Jay Street, and zoooooooooom to Howard Beach.
It was usually a train of four R-46s, with only one or two cars open, with a conductor (who took the additional fare) and a policeman (I don't remember if it was one conductor/policeman per car, or per train).
When there were no delays due to slow-poke "normal" trains in front, the ride was about 45 mintues from Rock Center to Howard Beach... this was before the propulsion modifications, so the trains could really zip along straightaways - too bad there were no railfan windows. Of course, the connecting bus from the subway station to your terminal took almost another 45 minutes!
When I rode the JFK Express, the fare was collected in the station at Howard Beach/JFK and not on the train.
As I remember, in 1989 it went from Howard Beach/JFK along the A lines all the way non-stop to Broadway-Nassau, remaining on the A 'till W4 Washington Sq. There switching following the B to 57th which at that time was the terminus.
Regards, Chris
As I recall, most of the people who actually rode the train were commuters from Howard Beach. This raises the question, if the TA slipped in an express "special" every 30 minutes -- like the old NX -- from affluent areas on the fringe of the city, with an extra fare collected on board al la the LIRR, would more people ride? And would it be reasonable to have first and second class service.
Yes it sounds like a reasonable SERVICE idea maybe from early AM rush thru PM Rush. BUT as to premium fare NO. As to "extra expense" last I knew, a crew and trainset was most expensive when creeping @10 mph the whole trip. If the run is faster they can do more of same sanely in an 8 hr shift.
Maybe that's why the TA no longer does this on various lines through out the system, i.e. they couldn't charge any more & it would be too much trouble for them, so they don't want to bother.
How about a $3.00 fare for #1 express from 242th with next stop 96th ?
How about a $3.00 fare for #7 express from Main St with next stop Queensboro Plaza ?
Mr t__:^)
Thurston's idea about a $3.00 special #1 express from 242nd to 96th got me thinking. It would be difficult to collect the extra fare in that case, without the expense of putting people on the platform.
How about building a platform and originating/terminating such a special express in the yard, then converting the area under the yard to a parking lot? The $3.00 fare could pay for parking AND the ride. Access to the yard could be controlled, making it possible to collect the $3.00 in and the $1.50 (since they would already have paid $1.50) out. An express bus unlimited ride card could be used as well.
If auto theft security could be assured, you might have a winner, not just for rush hours but perhaps for theater trips. It would serve those who are a drive away from either the subway or Metro North (ie. Riverdale, parts of Westchester along the Saw Mill Parkway). My grandfather parked and rode at 242nd 50 years ago, but it was a long ride. Express would be shorter, maybe short enough to attract additional people.
Any other lines with elevated yards and rush hour capacity? We talked about Concourse Specials from a parking lot/garage at the yard to the lower level at 42nd St, for the theater and Yankee Stadium, as part of another thread. (With George figuring out he has nowhere to go but the Bronx, kissing his rear with transit service is back in play).
It depends on how much extra you charge. Here in Chicago, the CTA ran express trains from the suburb of Evanston with a $0.25 surcharge. The trains were filled to the gills even though the Evanston (now Purple) line parallels a Metra line and, at three locations, there is a Metra station next to or a short distance from an L station.
You bought a surcharge ticket (oddly, it was called an "ID check") when you paid your fare in the station, and a collector on the train took it. If you didn't have an "ID check" then you paid the on-board collector a $0.50 surcharge.
These Evanston Expresses skipped most of the Red Line stations from Howard to downtown, except for the busy Belmont and Fullerton stations, and they made very good time. Now, the Purple Expresses make a few more stops south of Belmont, so they don't charge the surcharge anymore, but the Purple Expresses still don't stop between Howard and Belmont and still make the trip faster than a Red Line train.
Used to be (back in the fall of '78) the Evanston Express ran non-stop from Howard Street to Merchandise Mart. I don't know if there was a surcharge or not at that time for folks boarding prior to Howard Street; I boarded at Howard and rode to MM each day and never paid a surcharge, at least not that I recall.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since the Purple line continues past Howard and goes outside of the Chicago city limits, that may have something to do with the surcharge. Howard forms most of Chicago's northern city line. I think the deal was if you boarded a Chicago-bound Evanston Express north of Howard and you were continuing onto Chicago, you probably paid a surcharge. If you boarded at Howard, there was no surcharge because you were already in Chicago. During off-peak hours, you would tell the operator on the Evanston train if you were continuing to Chicago, and you would be issued a paper transfer which you handed over to a platform agent at Howard when changing trains. At least I think that's how it worked.
It's true that for many years, Evanston Express trains ran nonstop from Howard to Merchandise Mart. However, they had to share trackage with Brown/Ravenswood trains south of Belmont (and still do), and if a Ravenswood train happened to be ahead of an Evanston Express, the express had to sit and wait between stations before it could proceed. In other words, the trip would slow down considerably south of Belmont. I understand they now make all stops between Belmont and Merchandise Mart, and IMHO that's really no big deal for the reasons I alluded to. One nice thing is that now that the Addison station has been reconfigured into a center island station, Evanston Express trains have the outer tracks all to themselves north of Belmont and the Ravenswood cutoff, and Red line trains stay on the inner tracks all the way from Howard to the State St. subway portal.
I still miss the 4000-series cars on the Evanston Express...
Ah yes, the 4000s. They were great! I lived at 7600 N. Greenview (corner of Howard) from September through December 1978 while on a temporary assignment with my then-employer. One room plus an efficiency kitchen/dining area and a bathroom in what had obviously once been a grand old building, but for that period of time for two people it was just fine. My wife and I were married in Rogers Park that October - memories!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's just one hitch: the last 4000s were retired in 1974, when the Evanston line was converted to third rail. Their trolley poles came in handy prior to that. Maybe you remember them from an earlier time. I could always tell when a 4000-series Evanston Express went by my grandmother's (now my aunt's) apartment because they sounded distinctly different than the 6000s.
Perhaps I do. I travelled to Chicago many times as a child and have memories of riding the Electroliner (and dining on an ElectroBurger) up to a close family friend's home in Milwaukee, although I wasn't quite six years old when they made their last run. I was last in Chicago about 1971 (prior to moving there in 1978) so I may have ridden them then, as we did ride the Express to Evanston that summer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
By 1971, and even prior to that, the 4000s were holding down the fort on the Evanston Express, since they had trolley poles and the Evanston line was still an overhead catenary operation. You're lucky to have been able to ride on the 4000s, let alone the North Shore; I never did. If it's not the Triplexes in New York, it's the 4000s in Chicago.
The North Shore closed up shop during the wee hours on January 20, 1963. I was two months and two days past my sixth birthday then, and while I remember 1963, I was totally unaware the North Shore even existed. Now, the South Shore was another story (for another time), being a South Bend native.
That makes you about four months older than I. I rode the North Shore several times as a youngster, but I only remember three trips distinctly: the one where I had an Electroburger en route to Milwaukee, another where I had eggs on the southbound run one morning (hey, let's face it, food has always been way too much a part of my life), and my last trip, southbound to Chicago in a snowstorm one afternoon in late December 1962 (New Year's Eve, maybe? I'm not sure), riding a train of heavyweight cars. The motorman let me into the cab with him for a while and I remember wondering how he could possibly see where he was going. I was back in my seat by the time we came into Chicago (Mother, as usual, was afraid that I would distract the motorman), and I remember that the snow was falling so heavily that I could barely see the street below and the buildings that we passed. The Broadway left on time, though, and after dinner in the diner (strangely enough, I don't remember what I had, although if lamb chops were on the menu then that was it:-)) I'm sure that I snoozed comfortably to the rhythm of steel wheels on steel rails as we returned east.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you had an Electroburger, then you rode on the Electroliner. They could do 80 mph without breaking a sweat. In addition, they had a railfan seat at each end. The Illinois Railway Museum has one of them, restored to its original paint scheme. It looks great.
P. S. I wonder if that last train you took was going any slower because of the heavy snowfall.
I don't know if it was going slower or not - it sure seemed fast to me! Knowing Mother, she probably took an earlier train than what would otherwise have been necessary in order to ensure our connection to the Broadway. (For that matter, she probably did even in good weather - after the North Shore was gone we made the trip a couple of times with her friend Audrey driving us back to Chicago and Mother was always worried that we wouldn't get there on time, even though we were always at least a couple of hours early.)
The Electroliner was a neat ride. I hope to get to Union one of these years to see it again - I've ridden both sets when they were in service on the Red Arrow as well and have visited Rockhill, where the other set resides, but I haven't made it out to the IRM yet. My railfan trip this year looks to be the Orange Empire RR Museum and Tehachapi Loop in November - our older daughter (it was a package deal when I got married, but I raised her, I claim her) is due to make us grandparents for the second time around the first of October, so we're planning to fly to LA in November when our younger son has the week off school and drive back to Las Vegas, where she lives with her husband and our grandson, via Orange Empire one way and Tehachapi the other. IRM will have to wait (again)!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[By 1971, and even prior to that, the 4000s were holding down the fort on the Evanston Express, since they had trolley poles and the Evanston line was still an overhead catenary operation. You're lucky to have been able to ride on the 4000s, let alone the North Shore; I never did.]
Dear Steve B. and Anon_e_mouse -
Hope you two don't mind me getting in here.
Although I'm a few years older than both of you I never rode the North Shore or the 4000's. Growing up in Philadelphia, I did have a lot of traction to ride and quite a bit of railroading to do also -PTC, Red Arrow, P&W, and the PRR, RDG & B&O.
My first trip to Chicago was in May, 1972. I was only in town two days (Friday, Saturday, left Sunday). I rode the 6000's on the Ravenswood and thought that was great. However, I didn't know about the 4000's, and such as it was, the PM rush hour was over.
So, I've only ridden on the Electroliner on the P&W and at IRM. I've only ridden the 4000's at IRM, Fox River and on the Loop during the 100 years Loop celebration.
I know a CTA motorman who spent many hours running those 4000's on the Evanston. He started working at CTA in 1961 and retired at the end of 1995. He sure can tell the stories about working out of Howard Street.
I’m a recent (1996) resident of Chicago (city). I’m making up for lost time.
BTW Anon_e_mouse, you got to ride the PRR "Broadway Limited". I'm envious.
Jim K.
Chicago
I was REALLY lucky!! I got to ride both the Electroliner and the 4000's in their native land. And even run and tend the poles on 4000's! (I went in July, 1963 in my BTC uniform, so I got treated as a fellow Transit worker.)
I also rode the 'Liners on the P&W, and the railfan seat was great, but I missed 80 in the Skokie Valley.
Yes, Mother travelled regularly from New York to Chicago with her profession (she was a folk singer/harpist [Irish harp] and also an orchestral pianist) and when I was younger I got to travel with her frequently. While she was busy performing I would stay in Milwaukee with her best friend from college. I had my first trip on the Broadway at the age of three months - not that I remember THAT one, mind you! - and probably logged a total of about fifteen round trips between 1957 and 1966. We also took the 20th Century Limited three round trips that I recall, boarding once in New York and twice in Poughkeepsie (where I grew up). Mother, being from a family of coal miners and RR employees in Pennsylvania (PRR, LV, Lackawanna, among others), didn't think too highly of the NYC and only rode the Century when absolutely necessary. It had a different ambiance than the Broadway - a little more pizazz, in contrast to the Broadway's understated elegance. And decidedly noisier passengers, as I recall.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Back to the orig thread for a moment. My wife's friend was on the phone last night & it was handed to me ...
- She rode the JFK Express for about a year.
- AM it was mostly commuters & airline employees
- PM there was some airport customers mixed in
- It was faster over all compared with other IND service
- She ALWAYS got a seat & generally like the ride
- There was a coupon book she bought
- There was a cop & conductor on board to collect tickets & she THINKS cash from airport customers
- She has no idea how many cars, what kind or yard from, as she's just a TA customer.
Mr t__:^)
A correction to my earlier post; I meant Broadway-Nassau, not Broadway-Lafayette. Another interesting thing about the JFK Express -- before Queensbridge opened, it provided the only service from 57/6 to 47-50/6 during evening (9pm-1am) hours, following the end of service for the day. The map says that it will provide "local service betweetn these two stationss without additional fare."
Actually, the JFK express ran 3-car R-46 consists. The cars 1200-1278 were assigned to the JFK Service.
Were the cars A-B-A or all A cars? (I know that there have to be at least two A cars)
Most of the time it was "A-B-A" (i.e. 1202-1203-1256) although I do remember seeing "A-A-A" on occasion (i.e. 1244-1246-1270).
I rode it once in the mid 80s I think - it was running without collecting the additional fare. I went from 47-50 to Howard Beach. We made an additional stop at Broadway-East New York. This was an eight-car train, with 1200s at either end and other cars filling out the middle, A-B-B-A-A-B-B-A.
Wayne
The reason why the JFK x was running 8 cars then was due to the closing of the Williamsburg bridge around 88 or 89. The A line borrowed green R-10s and some r-30 cars, the last time before their retirement too. It was fun working back then.
Whoa!! You mean some R-10s really did go back to the A line just before the end of their careers? Let's face it - that's where they belonged. I guess you really can go home again.
Now you tell me...
This is rather coincidental that this topic has come up now, because I just noticed this week at the 5th Avenue/42nd Street subway stop on the B/Q/7 trains, all of the directional signs still contain the circle for the JFK Express, but that the logo has been painted over in black so it's hard to see unless you're looking closely. I wonder why they haven't replaced these signs after all these years.
I remember it was rather quick except during rush hours. It got really interesting in the early 80's when the occasional 4-car train of R-38's would run on the JFK Express.
Wayne
Because the JFK Express was subsidized by the PA, employees were not supposed to be permitted to ride for free. I remember one time where a Road Car Inspector was asked to pay $3.50 for a ride from W4th St. to Euclid Ave. This was really chintzy since the train was empty. Instead of paying, he claimed he heard an unusual noise and put the Collector off the train at Utica Ave and sent the train to Pitkin yard. Of course, he got off at Euclid Ave. I don't know what this has to do with the discussion but I thought it was an interesting diversion.
Whatever became of the JFK Express and why was it stopped. Can someone please advise me of the route it took and where it started from in Manhattan. It seems to me that what puts people off using public tranport to and from JFK is the awful bus ride. Still $1.50 from JFK to town is a real cheap ride. On my last trip over the A train arrived at the platform and my daughter and myself were pushed out of the way by two guys who started thumping each other in the middle of the front car. The T/O came out and broke up the fight and one guy left the train. For your $1.50 you also get entertainment.
Simon
It started at 57th street and 6th ave. It stopped at 42nd/6th, 34th, west 4th, Jay Street and Howard Beach for the shuttle bus. It used crossovers at the South end of w4 to switch over to the 8th avenue .tracks
Maybe Steve knows the answer to this one. When the JFK Exp. rans R-46's which yard provided the cars?. I remember when the JFK was on it's last legs, R-44's were being used.
Jamaica Shop is the only yard that the R-46s have called home. 2 - 3 trains did lay up in Pitkin Yard ocassionally but the maintenance was done only at Jamaica.
During rush hours, it shared the Fulton St. express tracks with the A, so if there was an A train up ahead at a station, the JFK express would have to wait. During non-rush hours, it had those express tracks all to itself.
The JFK Express ran from 9/23/78 to 4/15/90. The consist of the last train was 286-123-233-146.According to the TA timetables the JFK Express took 38 Min to go from Howard Beach to W 4 St. The A takes 45 min for a lcl and 42 for an exp (give or take a little).
Larry,RedbirdR33
I was recently looking at pictures of R27/R30 cars and one of the pictures had about 3 to 5 burnt out cars at Fresh Pond Yard. The date was 7-4-76. Anybody has any info on this? Was the fire due to mechanical problems of Fourh of July fireworks? Any casualties?
Cunningham & DeHart's "History of NYC Subway System" states that a fire destroyed most of Metropolitan Ave. along with 4 cars on 7-16-74.
I believe the cars involved were R-27/30's and that they remained at Fresh Pond for quite some time afterwards. Unfortunately,the book doesn't give car #'s or details of the incident.
I have the Car Numbers - there were FIVE (5) in all:
R27 #8236-8237
R27 #8202-8203
and
R30 #8512
were all burnt to shells and the wooden platform and shed (a lovely, quaint structure) was also burned down as well back in 1976.
#8236, #8203 were the most heavily damaged by fire - totally incinerated.
Wayne
Did fireworks supposedly start this fire?
On a subway car, what exactly is flamable? I've just gotten used to the idea that a steel and glass building can burn down, because the contents burn and melt the steel until it collapses. What burns on a subway car? The plastic seats?
The interior seats (fiberglas) and flooring (linoleum tile) can certainly burn. In addition, any buildup of gunk, grease etc. in the undercarriage will burn as well. It got so hot that the car bodies were warped and buckled from the heat, especially that of #8236. The burning wooden station structure also contributed, no doubt.
Wayne
Actually, the contents burn and heat the steel until it fails. It takes quite a bit of heat to actually melt steel, but not quite as much to soften it to a point that makes it bendable.
BTW, Matchbox cars will evaporate on a gas burner. Don't ask :) I was a mischevous child.
-Hank
Another thing to consider is that a subway car is sort of like a church, the fire is contained within the body and gets very intense. Also there are many plastic surfaces within a carbody which can burn.
Oh, so you found that out too?!?! I used my Dad's propane torch to make a couple of "wrecks" for the HO layout I had back then and got a bit overzealous with one of them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh man ... what ideas come to mind now :)
--Mark
Thanks for the correct info. I'll note it in the book.
The R27/30 subway cars that has a fire at Metropolitan Av in July,76 that i think is a fireworks. The Number of this subway cars is R27 #8202-8203,8236-8237 and R30 #8512. Check this pictures #8202-8203 , #8236-8237 and #8512 .
Looking at the pictures, were the cars brought in on their own wheels (drag job) or are they on shop trucks?
No big loss. They were junk from the manufacturer. They not only retired from passenger service to haul garbage. They were hauled AS garbage!
The R-27/30s had to have a better track record than the R-16s.
The R27/30s seemed to have escaped the myriad electrical problems that plagued the R16s. I do remember, though, a number of times on R27s and R30s where we got stuck with motor trouble.
Wayne
The R-27/unoverhauled R-30 was the biggest joke I ever operated. I remember a modification in 1989 to a WH R-30 test train with an installation of a halon fire suppression system. It must have gone off twice in one week. It is no wonder that the red GE R-27s sent from ENY to replace the green R-10s were O/S within TWO weeks. They must have been transfered with R-42 horses because they were all dead motors. Grids burning, stuck brakes, flickering indication, I'm surprised they worked the garbage trains for as long as they did as they should have been hauled AS garbage! I am thankful none are in service as even railfans can benefit from their removal. It is only a shame they didn't hold on to the GE 30s longer as their MDBFs were MUCH MUCH higher.
Harry, the ones you are mentioning with the better MDBF - they were classified as the "R30A", correct? (Just making sure my books are correct, thanks). No doubt had different electrical/mechanical components. Yes, the R27 and the high-number R30 had quite a few problems - I was stuck/delayed on many a one, esp. on "QJ"/"J" and "RR" lines.
Wayne
The good R-30s were the rebuilt ones with the scm controllers. I believe they were 8250 through early 8400s. The westinghouse ones really sucked big time. At least when I started I had a good supv who would let me choose my train on the stand. It really is a shame that the TA gets rid of car due to age rather than reliability. You may be right calling them R-30a . You can knock the R-16 all you want but to me the R-27/30 will always be "good till the last scrap"
Thanks for the information...the Westinghouse controllers you mentioned were the same ones that plagued the 6300-series R16.
R30, #8250 thru #8351 and R30A, #8352 thru #8411 had GE controllers.
So did R27 #8136 thru #8249. All others in the fleet had Westinghouse (information from NYCTA Passenger Car Data 1947-1968, issued 12/68).
R30A is listed as a subcontract (like R32A) in the above document.
Wayne
Only 6399 had a WH cam controller. Similar to the type found on R22's. All the previous cars (6300-6398) had Unit Switch controllers.
And that's when I slugged him, Captain.
-Hank :)
Now I've got the time to read me technical journals.
The last person who said that was Lt. Cmdr. Montgomery Scott, or Scotty, of Star Trek fame. He said it after Capt. Kirk had sent him, confined to his quarters, as punishment.
Does this mean that you were suspended?
No, any Trekie worth his pips knows dialog verbatim.
I was looking at an old trolley map for the upcoming fantrip in
Philly, and apart from bemoaning the loss of the trolley turnaround
that used to exist right in front of where I live now, I came up
with a few questions about the spur/bridge train:
1) Would it be right to say that old "Vine Street" station is now
named "Chinatown"?
2) It looks like the line went right from ridge avenue into what is
now Patco. Is the Ridge terminal at 8th and Market a new thing?
(Well, ok, new meaning 1969)
3) Was the bridge part of the Broad Street subway, ie one "system",
as intended in the original expansion plans?
4) Were there ever any other stations along the spur? Besides the
now-closed 91st...err, I mean Spring Garden. :)
5) Can we write enough letters to get those "Museum" trains out of
that Fern Rock yard for a sunday? :D
-Lee
1.Vine St.is now officially "Chinatown".
2.I believe that the Ridge spur was originally to be part of the now PATCO line, but I don't know thewhole story.
4. Spring Garden is the only abandoned station "seroius underuse" and it really does look like 91st St with all that graffiti.
When is this fantrip?
I assume he's talking about the one on Sunday, 2 May, sponsored by the BVTA in conjunction with the National Trolley Meet in Pennsauken that weekend. I'll be on it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
??? Not familiar with that one. Is that a subway or Trolley trip?
I don't have the details with me here at work, but the one I mentioned
is on April 18. They're taking a (1928?) & PCC & Kawasaki out for 4
hours, including some abandoned (well, temporarily bus service)
trackage.
-Le
The Ridge Av subway was constructed as far south as 8th/Market where it connected to the Bridge Line to Camden. In the 1950's the Locust St subway was opened from 8/Market to 15/16 Locust although it only saw rush hour service. The Locust St subway was taken over by PATCO and a new upper level was constructed at 8/Market for the Ridge Av trains while PATCO used the original station on the lower level. For a time a track connection was retained from PATCO to the Ridge Av subway north of 8 St. The track has now been removed but the trackway is still intact and visible.
Larry, Redbird R33
Larry,
Where is the track visible? There's a couple things visible off
to the side from Patco. There seems to be a big open space with
lights off to the left visible shortly after entering the Philly
tunnel. Is that part of it?
Lee: The connection is still visible .Ride a northbound PATCO out of 8/Market and look out the front window. The connection was to the northbound Ridge Av track right after the line expands to a double track.
Larry,RedbirdR33
And yes there was once another station @ 2nd(third maybe) closed many years ago before PATCO. At that time the 'Bridge' line only operated from Camden in to Locust if memory serves.
David: Which station are you referring to. When the Locust St subway was openned in 1953 the Bridge trains were routed into it. At first the service ran full time but was gradually cut back to extended peak hours by 1959. The Locust St subway being closed at other times and on weekends. The Bridge trains then either ran btwn Camden and 8/Market or as Camden Ridge trains btwn Camden and Girard reversing at 8/Market.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah, same question. The only other abandoned station on the spur or the Bridge Line is Franklin Square. This opened with the line in the 30's but closed fairly quickly. It remained closed until PATCO renovated it just before the Bicentennial. Usage was always low (there are really no attractions in the area and Franklin Square itself is a fairly dismal and lonely place) and PATCO finally closed it again in '79. It's still there and can be seen from every passing PATCO train in either direction.
The former connection between PATCO and the Ridge Spur had a cyclone fence installed across it in the late '80's. Before that, the track was cut but one could walk through the area on the trackbed (provided one was authorized to do so).
It would be nice to run the preserved Broad St cars on a fantrip and perhaps blow some of the dust off them. The last one I was on was in March '94 and I believe that was the last time the cars ran. As I recall, the South Broad car (I believe it was 166) was having lots of trouble that day and actually burned out a motor on the trip. Given SEPTA's track record with preservation and fantrips, don't count on one any time soon. Still, one would think that some local enthusiast group could get something together, as the trolley trips in the next few weeks and last fall's el trip would indicate. There was even a trackless fan trip last month. It would be interesting to find out if any current Broad St motormen were still qualified to run the old cars. ?
I was indeed dimly remembering (Franklin Square). I lived briefly in Philly 65-6 and made some efforts to explore the system--as well as commuting from Germantown to Center City to work--sometimes the Reading sometimes the 23& BSS to 8& Market as I worked @ 9& Market. My visual memory is an out of service entry to the subway over by the river bridge--Franklin?, and the vision from the train of a dark platform. In any case see Gerry Williams excellent book on SEPTA for far better info than I can provide. The book was detailed in threads here when it came out in the fall & should be available @ better bookstores. PS the one area I wish he had covered in greater detail was the labyrinth of mezzanine walkways connecting the Locust line to the BSS main all the way north to Arch or Race and linking to Suburban sta & if memory serves E-W along the MFL to Reading and beyond. I would love to find a good map of same.
Years ago, this was usually found in the old Bulletin Almanac as well as infrequently in the telephone book. If I can find a copy I'll advise.
The concourse is still around and fairly intact with two major exceptions - the connection toward Race-Vine station on the Broad Street subway which once swung north from City Hall (closed when the Commuter Tunnel was built) and the westward continuation from Suburban Station to 18th Street through the old Sheraton Hotel (closed when the Sheraton came down). It's still possible to go fairly long distances underground using the concourse, although the ambience leaves a little to be desired. Combined with the lower level of the Gallery/Gallery 2, one can start at 8th & Market and travel through to 18th & Kennedy without crossing a street.
Let me second David's comments about Gerry's book. I'm reading it now, and it's well worth the $29.95! One big highlight is the picture from the Ben Franklin Bridge of the construction of I-95 and the new alignment of the Market Frankford El.
Michael
Sounds great - where can I get a copy of it? Amazon.com doesn't seem
to know it exists. :(
I was in the SEPTA Transit Museum 2 days ago and I overheard the people behind the counter talking over ordering the book so it should be on its way.
I have that book so you should be able to get it. also.
It is truly a work of art.
Chuck Greene
I picked mine up at Gene's books in the King of Prussia Mall.
Michael
I seem to recall a subway video was made using the market st subway a few years ago, has there been any other subway videos made like one of the IRT running the entire line ? even a video of the LIRR would be nice of the babylon line.....
I think Mark Feinman is working on a couple.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've noticed that there are a lot of engine switches at 30th St. Station.
Don't they usually do that at Washington Union Station?
We went over this a few weeks ago, you might find something in the archives. The upshot is that they switch locs in Philly instead of DC (not always but sometimes) for two reasons:
- they are a little short on electric locs, and this eases the shortage, esp. since those trains going south of DC are typically long and heavy & require 2 locs.
- things are tight in DC, since there are a small number of tracks that continue south of the station, and they do not want to tie up these tracks while switching locs. Keep in mind that there is SB commuter service out of DC which must share these tracks.
Also, you might be seeing locomotives being switched for sevice to Harrisburg. These are almost always run with diesel locs from Philly - Harrisburg for reason #1 above. Hopefully these locomotive shortages will be mitigated with all the shiny new equipment amtrak is getting in the next few months.
How has Amtrak suddenly ended up with an electric shortage? I know the E60s were on the way out, but are they scrapping them yet?
I don't know the numbers. But it's not a sudden thing. They have been running diesels to Harrisburg for something like ten+ years.
The disappointing fact of the use of diesels to Harrisburg has also to do with simple direction as well as lack of equipment. The Pennsylvania Railroad originally ran their New York - Harrisburg trains through North Philly, skipping 30th Street entirely because it was the PRR's north-south station, and North Philly was the east-west station, predominantly. (If you notice, you can see the turn-off for the westward right-of-way in the vicinity of North Philly station, in addition to the dilapidated wreck of what was probably a once beautiful station building.) Since Amtrak's Keysone service runs between Harrisburg and New York most of the time, when the New York trains pull into 30th Street, and when the Harrisburg trains pull into 30th Street, they are heading the wrong direction. Anyone who has patronized the service and suffered through the up-to-20-minute engine switch is painfully aware of this fact as they spend half their trip riding backwards.
Okay here is a quote or two I found:
I have it from a reliable source that the new Amtrak electrics will replace the E-60's directly, for the long haul trains. One of the new engines can haul them (under normal conditions), just as the E-60s can.
The switch to/from diesel may still occur in PHL until the Acela maintenance facility, and other upgrades, are completed in WAS, since there are track limitations and some congestion there now.
It would seem economically logical for Amtrak to concentrate ALL the engine changes in PHL, since they HAVE to change there on the westbounds. There is still lots of room in the old 30th St coach yard! The only train requiring diesel service in DC is the Capitol.
Actually, they don't HAVE to change the westbounds in Philly, they just are at the present time due to a shortage of electrics. Once the new motors are delivered, there shouldn't be a shortage and electric runs to Harrisburg should be able to resume.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
With regards to Philadelphia, how are the old Reading electrified branches doing? Was/Is there any cosolidattion of the old PRR and Reading suburban electrified routes. I can not remember if the two systems exactly alike, 13,000 Volt AC?
The old Reading Company had six branches that were electrified operating with MU equipment using 11,000 Volt A/C.
In 1931 the following branches began electric train service from Reading Terminal to (includes Destination, branch name and milage):
* Lansdale via the Bethlehem Branch (24.4 miles)
Doylestown (34.4 miles
* Hatboro via New Hope Branch & Glenside (18.6 miles)
* West Trenton via West Trenton Branch and Jenkintown (32.5 miles)
In 1933 the following lines were added:
* Elm Street, Norristown via Norristown Branch (18.0 miles)
* Chestnut Hill via Chestnut Hill Branch & Wayne Junction (10.8 miles)
In 1966 the following line was added:
* Fox Chase via NY Shortline and Newtown Branch (11.1 miles)
These lines were through routed with lines on the Pennsy side when the commuter tunnel opened in 1983.
The through routings are as follows (From the Reading side via Center City to the Pennsy side):
* R1 Various originating locations to the Airport (This was not an
original Pennsylvania RR destination. It was added after the
Center City tunnel was completed).
* R2 Warminster (extension of Hatboro in 1974) to Wilmington, DE
* R3 West Trenton to Media-Elwyn
* NO R4
* R5 Doylestown-Lansdale to Malvern (Paoli) - Downington
* R6 Norristown to Cynwood (Manayunk)
* R7 Chestnut Hill East to Trenton
* R8 Fox Chase to Chestnut Hill West
All SEPTA trains are now use Amtrak voltage/frequency for trolley power.
[All SEPTA trains are now use Amtrak voltage/frequency for trolley power.]
I am not sure what you mean by this: Amtrak operates under several voltages and frequencies btwn DC and New Haven, and eventually to Boston.
I _think_ SEPTA is at 11 or 12.5 kV, 25 Hz. This is the same as the NEC from DC to NY, I think. However, I also thought that there was a small but significant difference on the Reading side, and I thought I read that there is a phase break somewhere a little north of Market East station. But I am not sure!
I am almost CERTAIN that Amtrak is still 25hz all over the NEC below NYC. You can see the lights flickering on E-60s at Penn!!! And yes, this means you could probably still run a GG-1 on the NEC (Am I the only one out there who'd love to see that?). FWIW, Septa didn't retire their blueliners until 90 or so, and they were the same low frequency Ac technology (almost). The big voltage change was Metro-North going to ~13kv 60hz, though I've heard it gets as high as 15kv at points. Amtrak *has* been planning on redoing the NEC to 25kvAC, and NJT might have a few 25kv lines (anyone know for sure, I've heard NJT MUs are 25kv capeable, but it's a rewiring job that's done in the shop), but at least the NYC area is 25hz. More proof: peek into the cab of an e60 and note the power switch on the control stand is set to 11kv 25hz (just stand on your tippy toes and look through the window) The old PRR stuff that is now septa would be the same voltage. The Reading stuff I think was technically 12k 25hz, though that difference shouldn't really do much, and the equipment is compatible. AFIK, there is a phase break outside of Market East, but I never actually looked for one. I believe the PRR and Reading started getting identical (or close) equipment towards the end. Some of Septa's stuff still has Pensyvania painted on the side!!!
Thanks for the info guys.
Is there an updated Philly (suburban) route map on the web somewhere?
[Is there an updated Philly (suburban) route map on the web somewhere?]
Dear Mellow -
Try these:
From the official SEPTA Website:
http://www.septa.com/riding/sysmap.html
From the NYC SUBWAY ORG Website:
http://www.webcom.com/petrich/transit/PhillyCoreRail.gif
http://www.webcom.com/petrich/transit/PhillyRail.gif
I’m not sure that “track” maps exist for the SEPTA commuter rail system, because it is so complicated (i.e. five of the lines use Amtrak’s NE Corridor.
As I stated earlier today, use the NYC SUBWAY ORG resources. Much of what you are looking for is in this Website.
Jim K.
Chicago
Thanks again.
I understand there are artwork displays at some stations & transfer rooms. I saw examples of historic mosaics on this website. Are there any stations with 3-dimensional artwork eg statues? I prefer to photograph artwork & arriving/departing trains in same shot. Also, what are the most photogenic stations?
Here are some places where there is artwork (the list isn't complete)
Mosaics:
34th St-Penn Station (1,2,3,9) at the express platform ends
and on the walls of the local platforms
59th St-Lexington (4,5,6,N,R) in the transfer area floor-to-ceiling mosaic
Utica Avenue (A,C) in the rampways, ten panels
149th St-3 Avenue (2,5) on the platform level seven panels
86th St-Broadway, 66th St Broadway (1,9) at platform level
51st St-Lex/Lex-53 St (E,F,6) in the transfer corridor
Chambers Street-WTC (A,C,E) all over the place there are staring eyeballs
Houston Street (1,9), a number of mosaic panels
South Ferry (1,9) top of the stairs two mosaic panels
110th St (6) near the entrance four mosaic panels
116th St, 125th St, 135th St (2,3) various murals at platform level
Intervale Avenue (2,5) in the crossover/mezzanine
Atlantic Ave (2,3,4,5) in the transfer area, large mosaic panel
Stabiles, Mobiles, Plaques, paintings, metal decorations etc.
34th St-6 Avenue (B,D,F,Q,N,R) stabiles as you go up the escalator
Broadway-Lafayette (B,D,F,Q) metal stove decorations in the mezzanine
Westchester Square (6) hanging stabiles in the mezzanine
Flatbush Ave (2,5) bronze plaques
Grand Army Plaza (2,3) IRT angels plaque over the stairwell
Nevins St (2,3,4,5) enameled metal decoration in the entranceways
Prospect Park (D,Q) in the mezzanine
Coney Island-Stillwell (border near the ceiling)
Franklin St-Tribeca (behind glass is a sculpture)
Howard Beach (A) bas-relief panels
179th Street (F) in mezzanine, strongman sculptures
Eastern Parkway-Bklyn Museum (2,3), decorative plaques/panels
Photo murals:
42nd St-6 Ave/5 Ave 42 St in the corridor between stations
Essex St (J,M,Z)
Some of the stations themselves are works of art:
Astor Place, 33rd Street (6), Montrose Avenue (L), 137th St (1,9),
Borough Hall (4,5), Fulton Street (4,5), Canal Street (N,R) among others.
Wayne
Additional artwork sites left off the first list:
Cortlandt Street (N,R) in the crossunder, mosaic panels (various)
103rd St (6) "El Barrio" mosaic and also in the stairwells
96th St (6) Various doodads and small mosaics throughout station
Woodhaven Boulevard (G,R) decorative panels in mezzanine
50th Street-8 Avenue (C,E),southbound side, photo mural
Wayne
It's kind of like the joke about the Pentagon. I think a good project would be to devise signage you can actually follow inside this station.
I continue to have questions about this section of the IRT.
At the station on 42d street, between Park and Madison Avenues, where there are five subway tracks, and along 42d Street to Broadway, a special method of construction was employed which was not followed elsewhere.
Can someone elaborate on this, with details of what the 42nd street area looked like prior to its reorganization? What switches were there, if any, what this fifth track was, and any pictures of the two stations?
David: I assume you are referring to the Grand Central-42 St Station of the First Subway which is now the present 42 Street Shuttle. The First Subway came north on Park Avenue and turned west onto 42 Street.The station at Grand Central actually centers more between Vanderbilt Avenue and Madison Av though official MTA signage does refer to this as "Grand Central-Park Av" this designation is not used.The line continues west on 42 Street to Broadway where it swings north onto Broadway. The Times Square Station is actually on the curve from 42 Street to Broadway. The only stations built were Grand Central(exp 4 tracks,2 island platforms) and Times Square(lcl 4 tracks, 2 side platforms). When the line was converted to shuttle operation in 1918 the southbound express track (tk 2) was boarded over at Grand Central and at Times Square to make it possible to run shuttles on the three remaining tracks (1,3,4). At this time switches were installed at the west end of the Grand Central platforms to connect tks 1,2,and 3. Although not used for passenger service track 2 was used for storage until fairly recently but it could only be reached from the Grand Central end. There was a bumper at the Times Square end. Track 2 is no longer in service and the switches at Grand Central connect directly from tk 1 to tk 3. Track 4 has never been connected to the other shuttle tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
If they connected track 4 to track 3 on the shuttle, they could then eliminate a switch on the No. 1 line. Would this not be worthwhile?
They would be replacing one turnout with two, but I would think they'd require a lot less maintenance on the S than on the 1, and its easier to maintain stuff on lines that close overnight.
(Yes, at subtalk, we can come up with billion dollar dreams, but we can also armchair micromanage!) :)
They'd have to move the wall between 3 and 4. Not an easy task.
-Hank
My uncle told me that long ago (40s & 50s probably) the TA had lightbulbs that screwed in backwards, so that if they were stolen, they would be useless.
Anyone know if this was true? Are there any of these still around? I've seen lightbulbs that said NYCTA but they unscrewed normally (don't worry, I screwed them back in and left them there - I was just checking).
Yep. And I think they were also DC. Public housing projects also used left-threaded bulbs in public areas.
-Hank
The story I heard was that the R1-9 series cars used normally threaded lightbulbs for the regular lights, but left-hand thread bulbs for the emergency lights which came on when 3rd-rail power was interrupted.
The theory was that the regular light bulbs were always lit and would be too hot to handle, so it wasn't necessary to use the left-hand thread bulbs on these.
I've heard the same about old BMT cars (Standards and Triplexes), and also that all the bulbs on these were left-hand threads.
- Ed Sachs
Don't know about left-handed threads, but they did used to come in 54 Watt bulbs for station lighting, way back when everything was incandescent.
Even if you did unscrew the regular light bulb, it was a 30 volt variety which would have a very short lifespan on 120 volts. To test them at Seashore we use a 150W light bulb in series to limit current.
You can use one of the sign boxes on 1689. The bulbs for the destination signs are wired in series. I have to use 75-watt bulbs just to get halfway decent lighting in my sign box.
A bulb does not care if it operates on AC or DC. It *does* care about the voltage, however. So, the ways to keep people from using them at home are: Different base configuration and/or different voltage.
BTW -
How many TA lightbulbpersons does it take to change a light bulb?
(-stay tuned for the answer)
Probably three - an inspector to actually make note of the burned out bulb, an electrical person to change the bulb and another inspector to make sure that the new bulb is lit. Send 'em up to 177 Parkchester, n/b platform, west end. A bunch of burned out bulbs in 60s vintage platform lamps there (unless they've fixed them since). Ditto Atlantic Avenue on the "L" (they'll need four people there) :o)
Wayne
--you forgot the towerperson to operate who operates the turntable...
I thought they had a machine that does that now. (rim shot)
They do, but it takes three people to turn it on (wheeee! *cymbal*)
Wayne
Yeah, one to throw the switch, and two to tell the first guy how they could do it better.
Many subway light bulbs are designed to operate on the normal houshold voltage of 120. These do, however care if it is AC or DC. Street Railway light bulbs have been made in 36, 56, 101 and 201 watt sizes. The former 3 are still fairly common and can be substituted for 40, 60, and 100 watt houshold types with good results.
However the result of substituting household bulbs for the street railway variety can be disasterous! Since the bulbs are connected in series strings of 5 across 600 volts, there is a six hundred volt potential across the filament when it burns out. The street railway bulbs are designed to deal with this, but the household bulbs aren't! An arc will start and eventually burn its way into the base of the bulb and even into the socket and car wiring. This can do some serious damage or start a fire.
Special headlight bulbs were also designed to work with series strings or dropping resistors. These came in 36, 56, 94, 150 and 250 watt sizes.
The crew on board a train should work together as a team. Both job descriptions have different important responsibilities. There is NO need or room for argument between brother and sister TA personnel. The only people who gain from such squabbles are those management types who seek to advance their careers by advocating false economies and eliminating personnel necessary for the safety of the passengers. DON'T give them any aid or comfort. if thier are individuals who choose not to work together with thier co-workers, it is up to TA management to evaluate the situation and possibly assess discipline, that is a proper management function.
Thank You! also boycott the "RTO ROADEO".
I'll bite. Why?
A group of yuppie homeowners in Sunset Park has succeeded in getting DOT to hire a group of greedy construction consultants to study putting the Gowanus Expressway in a tunnel. Estimated cost? $2 billion, $10 billion, does it really matter? Assuming this $10 billion would be extra money, is there anything someone here would rather spend it on? Assuming it is not extra money (and the rest of the state seems inclined to screw Brooklyn any way possible) what part of Brooklyn's infrastructure should be allowed to deteriorate and then be abandoned to divert money to the tunnel? Do those yuppies really think the value of their rowhouses will rise if the Manhattan Bridge fails and BMT service collapses?
At the risk of starting yet *another* long running Manhattan bridge thread...
Right now, rail service or not, the Manhattan bridge *needs* to be replaced. The whole thing is falling apart, not just the subway parts. Why NYC hasn't realized this yet is beyond me. The Williamsburg bridge might possibly be saved, but the Manhattan is probbably beyond it's useful life. I'm actually kinda surprised it hasn't just fallen into the water yet. Though I'm sure if it did (a frightening idea - I know), NYC would be in a hell of a bind because they'd have to draw up plans, etc, to replace it. Nevermind the tie up in subway service - traffic would be a mess too. A replacement of that bridge would certainly eat 5 billion fast...
I Do Like the Idea of covering the BQE. Paying for it however...
The plan I read tried to put a good spin on the cost by suggesting that the BQE (which it billed as "far and away the worst stretch of highway in America") needed an complete and expensive overhall anyway and that rather than disrupting traffic to do the overhall, the money might be better spent digging a new highway tunnel under 2nd Avenue. That way the BQE could remain open until the day the new tunnel opened. I think they wanted to run if from 9th Street to 65th street or wherever it is that the BQE changes routs out there past Sunset Park. The idea being that the savings of not closing the BQE for repairs and the increase in property value along third avenue, where the elevated highway would eventually be removed would deffer the additional cost of the tunnel.
Though in theory I would love that lousy highway out of sight, it all
Sounds like fancy NY Real Estate talk to me.
I have always thought that it would be a great idea to cover the portion of the BQE between Atlanic Ave. and the Brooklyn Battery tunnel with a nice esplanag for bikes and rollerbldes. This seems more worth it because at the moment, an entire neighborhood (Redhook) is cut off from the rest of South Brooklyn, by the highway. Not to mention the problmes of noise, pollution and traffic. I read where the Asthma rate in Cobble Hill and Redhoook is twice the National Average. This plan would be far less ambitions, (it's a shorter stretch and you would only be covering existing highway that's already in a fairly deep cut.) and the benefits seem greater. (Bring a park to the largly parkless surrounding area, and incorperate a large and historic section of Brooklyn to the rest of the mainland.)
All of these are good ideas but I must say that I would rather see a tunnel to replace Manhattan Bridge Train service. That, it seems, would improve train service and potentially save the bridge for cars, bikes and pedestirans. It sure would be nice to walk across the Manhattan Bridge. It sure would be nice to have a Broadway Express. What's more, half of the people who live near that stretch of the BQE (N,R Trains)would rather see Broadway Express service than a crazy tunnel for the BQE.
As long as we're dreaming up ideal scenarios. How about building a freigh rail line that runs from the Penn Station Yards, down the West Side and Under Atlantic Avenue, to JFK and the LIRR tracks. This would give National freigh to/from JFK and Long Island a rail option which would cut down on trucks and solve a lot more problems for a lot more people.
Like the BQE Tunnel people, I can dream up crazy scemes too!
By the way Larry,
I suppose you know about the Garbage facility proposed for Redhook which is expected to drastically increase traffic in In Cobble Hill, Boreum Hill, Carrol Gardens and Redhook. Particularly along the Commercial Streets, Court, Smith, Atlantic, 9th Street, and along the waterfront. You know as well as I do that the traffic, noise, and pollution in this area already exceeds it's capacity. There is some kind of rally at City Hall tomorrow (Tueseday) to make a stink about it.
Hope to see you there.
Unfortunately, the waste transfer has to go somewhere, and the same objections being made at Red Hook will be made elsewhere. The logical place? To me its at the end of the 65th St line near the Brooklyn Army terminal, with water and rail access. The goal is to minimize cost and truck miles, in my view. The Bay Ridge group seems to have enough clout to kill that one. Also, putting the transfer station for Queens in New Jersey is unlikely to fly.
Well Larry, As long as this thread is about Spending Priorities, it seems to me the city might make a little bit more than a half-assed effort to reduce the amount of waste that's produced in the first place, before they spend a fortune putting the worlds largest garbage facility in ANYBODY's back yard.
Yes, it is inevitable that they are going to have to eventually put a station somewhere but it is also inevitable that New York will one day have to completely rethink waste management and stop putting off new ideas about reducing waste at the source.
At least some of the following ideas are inevitable, why not get craking on them now and not have to build such a huge facility which will fast become out of date in the changing world of waste managment.
Impose some kind of "by-weight" taxes for carting, tax penalties for products with excessive packaging, tax breaks for products that comply.
Conservation incentives for government and city alike. Organize an agressive citywide conservation campaign to get people to return coat hangers to the dry cleaners and reuse those padded foam things inside Fed-Ex envelopes. Inform resturants and businesses to use coffee makers with a screen rather than a paper filter. Create incentives for City and Government employees to use coffee mugs at work rather than bringing in paper cups from outside. That's easy, put in a coffee pot and buy everyone a mug.
Government promotion of garbage disposal units (6% of all waste is organic food material with the potential to be removed via the drain).
Create incentives for utilities to handle billing electronically. This can save on envelopes and junk mail.
Have government checks: Social Security, Unemployment, Welfare, Disability, Medicare, Government Pensions ect. Be paid out by electronic deposit and reduce waste paper.
If taxes were raised on standard light bulbs and lowered on "long life" light bulbs, the number of bulbs used by New York could be drastically cut. Even 5% means millions and millions and millions of bulbs.
Let's not forget that reducing waste at the source has other benefits such as reducing trucks which bring many of these items to the city in the first place and reducing sanitation trucks to cart them away. That adds up to a lot of noise, traffic and air pollution.
I am reasonable. I understand that the city needs a transfer facility. If the city made any effort at all to reduce the number of delivery trucks and the number of per capita garbage trucks on Court Street, I might be inclined to accept a scaled down version of the transfer station in near by Redhook. But as always, the city doesn't even try.
The average American produces 4 pounds of trash per day. The average New Yorker produces 6 pounds. I'm not saying we have to be average, but how about 5 pounds a day??? Times 8,000,000 that's 4000 tons of garbage a day!!!
And the part that burns me up is that all of this is inevitable anyway! It's only a matter of time before we see some variation on all of the plans discribed above and more.
(Environmental taxes on packaging). I've thought about that, and I'd be all for it at the national level. At the local level, however, all you'd have is people driving out to Jersey to avoid paying the tax, then dumping the trash in our waste stream anyway, with Sierra Club members, hypocrites that they are, leading the parade. The same is true of most attempts to force people to live the way they don't want to -- you just drive the people that pay the paychecks away. Impose charges to pick up, and you get (more) illegal dumping in poor neighborhoods.
And the stuff about New Yorkers producing more waste is nonsense -- beware of data produced by advocates. NYC residents probably produce less waste, when the business waste stream is removed. Moreover, some environmentalism contradicts itself. More use of garbage disposals adds pollution to the waterways, and uses more water, which we also need to conserve.
I hear more nonsense on this issue than any other. Even from the Mayor. He doesn't want recyclables collected every week because he thinks more recycling will flood the market. Does anyone recall him saying that we can just throw the recyclables away every other week, rather than keeping it around for two weeks?
I agree with everything in your post but like I said, the time will come when waste removal is so costly that the municipalities will have to find some way to make people choose between conserving more or paying more. I believe that Disposal waste can be treated just as sewage is treated and that there is room to make that happen by conserving water in other areas. The problem is that there is no long-term comprehensive plan that addresses how we will have to inevitably live in the not too distant future. At some point there will have to be a decision to go down SOME road different from the one we're on. It seems beneficial for municipalities to anticipate this inevitable change before investing in grander versions of what we've been doing all along. The ideas that I threw out are just off the top of my head examples to demonstrate the need to change our thinking about waste management. The day will come soon when everything will have to change. I don't see the city preparing for that day.
But is any city really preparing for that day, pushing these sorts of things?
Like Larry says, I think a lot of these things need to be attacked at the national level. I am not optimistic that they will be anytime soon as long as energy remains so cheap...
So, on a related theme, what parts of NYC will be innundated if the ocean levels rise 5 feet as a result of global warming?
-David
(a probably hypocritical Sierra Club Member)
A day when everything will change? The day is here -- we are not going to be able to dump in the landfill. Incinerators were voted down, so we have to ship stuff out. That's the change.
A more radical change? Announce the government will no longer pick up garbage. People will either stop buying things, or leave the city and move to newly developing areas where virgin land is being paved over, and landfill space is available.
Its time people understand that anything that causes people and jobs to leave cities (where the land is already paved and transit is available) is environmentally bad. Chicago just published a plan which points this out.
That is why the city needs to agressivly explore ways to conserve its resources, rather than ship the problem under the rug.
As far as the day being here. Yes, it is, but tomorrow will be another day and we have to anticipate it. For the City to assume that simply shipping trash to other places is a bottomless resource for dealing with the problme is foolish and short sighted. Already there are few places willing to take 13'000 Tons of trash each and every day. It does not take much forsight to see that that resource is just a distraction from a much bigger problem. It's like the city has cancer and while there might not be a cure for that cancer, it is foolish for the city to invest all its money in band-aids and assume that the problem is taken care of.
Last night at around 10PM or so I was waiting for a downtown A express at 42nd St & 8th Ave. Surely enough shortly after an A train of R44's passed by on the Uptown express track what should appear behind it but a 6 car set of R110B's (#'s 3001-3002-3003, and 3004-3005-3006). The train had it's NOT IN SERVICE SIGN in place. At first I thought it was deadhead run to 207th Street, but I was rather disheartened to see that it was being used as a work train of sorts.
The 2nd car was transporting what looked like iron O rings for steam pipes (or manhole cover frames) placed on wooden skids stacked about 5 or 6 high while the 3rd car was carrying a track repair crew.
The R110B "work train" paused for a few moments just south of the Uptown platform before heading north.
Last I heard was that the R110B's were out of service at 207th Street awaiting an uncertain fate. My guess is that they'll either be scrapped or (best case scenario) end up living out their delcling years on the Franklin Ave or Rockaway Park Shuttles. However IMHO, it would make sense to overhaul the cars so they could be used with the new R143 fleet that is supposed to be arriving on the B division in a few years.
Damn shame what has happened to the R110B.
The R-110B is being used to test R-142 and R-143 pre-production equipment such as current collectors. What you likely saw in the 2nd car was just for weight (although they usually use wheels.
Interesting. As I said before I thought it was a work train. My other question will the cars return to revenue service once the new 67-footers arrive?
They will be 60 feet long, not 67 feet as you mention. There are problems with the 67 foot size because of the position of the truck (or so this is my understanding). This is why you never saw the cars on the Eastern Division. Cars would have had difficulty negotiating the sharp curves one finds on the Eastern Division.
This leads me to the next question: The TA has problems with 67 foot cars now, but that wasn't the case with the old BMT and it's AB Standards. Why is that?
-Constantine
It's because they changed the positions of the truck. If they built the new cars to the exact specifications of the AB's, it would work. So the real reason I heard they are giving up on long cars is because the short cars load better (more doors per train)(why they have 32's on the E), plus, so they don't have to lock the doors going into the next car.
What is going on with the Douglas Branch of the CTA Blue Line???
I though for sure the state would agree to fund it's part of the Tranpostation Equity Act that the Feds have already agreed to. Thus funding the Renovation of the Douglas Branch of the Blue Line.
Now though I have heard recent news that the CTA is threatening to shut it down if they don't get the proper funding and local groups who ride it are going downstate to talk with the Governor.
First of all, did the state infact turn down the TEA( Transportation Equity Act) or did they just decided to not fund the part the covered the CTA??? The Stevenson Expressway which is being funded under it is already a couple months into it's renovation.
Also, how can the CTA not come up with the money. They just renovated the Green Line a few years back which has to be over 20 miles long and costed allot more then this branch which is less then 10 miles long.
I would appreciated info. from anyone on this
BJ
Can someone explain briefly the service changes planned later this month on the A, C, L, M, J, and Z when the Willy B is closed to subways. I realize that info has been posted in the past, but for a week earlier this month I did not access this site due to a death in my family, so I may have missed something. Any info would be appreciated. Thank you.
: Express Service through Brooklyn on weekends.
: Local service to Brooklyn on weekends.
: Increased service on weekends.
: Run between Metro and Marcy Ave. 24/7
Seperate service from Bay Pkwy to Essex St during rush hours.
: Run between Jamaica Ctr and Bway/Myrtle. 24/7
: Run between Eastern Pkwy and Jamaica Ctr. Rush Hours only.
: Shuttle service between Essex and Broad Sts, weekdays. Service cut back to Chambers St on weekends.
More info will be available on mta website, www.mta.nyc.ny.us
There are fliers in most stations. They have a drawing of the bridge on them.
While they last... stop by booth N-11, the 175th st end of the 175th st station of the A line in manhattan. I have some of the brochures. The booth is open from 615-945am. ONE per customer.
What is D-Day? Have they pushed it back because of the G train service outage?
D Day is 5/2/1999 and this is the same day weekend A Brooklyn Express will start- sings already up in some A train cars
(D-Day is 5/2/99) I suggest riding over the bridge while you can. It seems the firms which convince the city to fix, rather than replace, the bridges because it is faster and cheaper always find repairs will take longer, and cost more, than originally estimated (surprise). One of these days, they might find a problem is not fixable, or so expensive that the city cannot afford it without exceeding its debt limit.
BTW -- the city's ability to go on fixing the bridges depends on some fiscal chicanery, since it is in fact over its debt limit. The latest scam would be to issue bonds funded by the city's share of its expected Tobacco settlement. If the city can't maintain, let alone improve, your infrastructure, do it have a "surplus?" (If people my age will get no Social Security or Medicare when we retire does the federal government have a "surplus"?)
No signs yet on the J,L,M fleet.What are they waiting for?
I want to know what happened on Nov 24,1979 when there is a Accident on R22 #7602 at Morris Park Ave but there is no information how this R22 got into Accident. Were there a runway or slam into other car? Here is the picture of R22 wreck # 7602 .
Don't have any particulars on that accident, but from the look of it, either it got hit by or ran into a work locomotive (position on the non-revenue track). Anyone have any more info on this mishap?
Wayne
That one puzzled me, too -- whatever hit the 7602 either didn't have anti-climbers or they didn't line up on the two pieces that hit, judging from the way the damage looks.
There were some other photos of a R12/14 car damaged in the area of the East 180th Street complex, that car was damaged so bad that it had to be lifted up to the Bronx River Parkway to be hauled off for scrap.
Perhaps this is part of the same accident?
No, the R14 that you saw was #5815, which was wrecked on December 29, 1969 in a sideswipe accident north of E.180th Street. An R22 (I think #7516) was also lost in that crash. #5815 had end and side damage and they cut it into two pieces when they hauled it off to scrap.
Wayne
Thanks for the correction,however, 7516 was one of the ill-fated cars of the automated 42nd Street Shuttle and was out of service before 1969 after it burned.
I knew that was a guess at best. There was at least one R22 car damaged in the December 29 1969 accident along with the R14 #5815;
just don't have its number.
Wayne
Wayne: Thanks to your coming up with the right date I was able to come up with the following info. 12/29/70 a stbd #2 approaching E 180 St was mistakenly routed to the exp tk and took the switch too fast and hit a ntbd #2 on the ntbd lcl. Cars involved; stbd #2 (S)5815-7637-6680-8928-8929-6612-8725-8724-7922-7765(N);
ntbd#2 (S) 8891-0,7070,7086,8892-3,8953-2,8857-6(N)
As you said 5815 had to be scappped on the spot to move the other cars. Note also that 7922 was mated to 7765, a not uncommon practice in those days. All service was out north of Freeman St through the pm rush. 50 people were injured.
This info is from the NYD Bulletin of the ERA.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Sounds like your typical mixed bag of cars, that southbound #2. Let's see: an R-14, an R-22, an R-17, a pair of R-33s, another R-17, a pair of R-29s, and the odd couple R-26 and R-28. As you said, it would wasn't uncommon to mismatch R-26s and R-28s, since they originally had couplers at their blind ends. I used to love to rattle off contract numbers of cars in a typical IRT train as it left a station, since solid trains were uncommon back then.
I hate to bring up my what-would-have-happened-if that-train-had-hit-a-BMT-standard comment, but it's fun to speculate, even though most of us know who would have won such a confrontation.
I don't know about that Steve. I recall a certain Staten Island ME-1 which was a close cousin of the AB got into a scrap with a old time Q type and the ME landed flat on his keester.
Larry,RedbirdR33
You know, I think that was mentioned some time ago. Didn't that fracas occur in Fresh Pond Yard? I thought it was pretty funny, a wooden Q unit getting the better end of a scuffle with a steel SIRT car. While the SIRT cars did bear a resemblance to the BMT standards, that's where the similarity ended.
It did occur at Fresh Pond Yard. A train of Q types ran into the SIRT car which was being used as a yard office. They scared him right off the BMT. He ran down the embankment onto the LIRR.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Which car on the northbound took the hit? I seem to recall that it was not the first car in the train.
Wayne
I wondered how a train could get all flat like that from a head on collision. I thought it was cool so i used it for a wall paper on my computer screen. Maybe there is something at the MTA buliding in New York. I'd check it out but i live in Boston with the T.
Matt
Like I said, whatever hit #7602 couldn't have been the same size or shape as it. Look at the anticlimber damage - it's bent down like a "V". And see how the entire end is ridden down - ripped right from the frame.
My guess - it got hit by a work locomotive or a steeple cab car or a crane car or something else odd-shaped.
Wayne
Maybe it could be a Flatcar slam into R22 #7602. Who know and i hope someone should get put this information into wreck/accident list. Other day i saw eight R21/22 workcars laying at Unionport Yard and been there for month and half now. So what they used for? Those cars had link together. Also i can see the big hole between all the cars and the front and back don;t have it.
The yellow work cars you saw at Unionport are use to carry very long sections of welded rail.
I am aware of Lowey's previous rail engine design of the venerable Pennsy GG-1 electric locomotive. And of course one of my favorite subway cars :)
However, I am curious about any other railcar designs that Mr. Lowey may have been involved with. Also, does anyone know what he designed AFTER the R-40s (whether railroad related or not)?
Thanks
Doug aka BMTman
The Skylab interior for NASA and the United States Postal Service Eagle logo are two things that come immediately to mind.
Shell logo, a few Pennsy steamers,a few jukeboxes -none really famous - the United machines of the 60's (flops) and the Aireons of the 40's (mechanical disasters). Emerson radios. Studebakers. Lots and lots of other things.
Hey, Studebakers were built where I was born - South Bend. I have a postcard of downtown South Bend from the 1950s, and virtually every automobile in it is a bullet-nosed Studebaker.
Raymond Loewy (the correct spelling) and William Snaith were the designers of the fabulous Slant R40. As far as I know this is the only rapid transit design they did; Loewy did design (or assist with the design) of the GG-1 locomotive, among other things mentioned by our fellows.
One version of the 1968 map showed a drawing of the Slant R40 - I wonder if anyone has this version around. Mine bit the dust long ago.
-Wayne-
Oops! Thanks for the spelling correction, Wayne.
BTW, while on the subject of the Slants -- and you being an obvious expert on those cars -- why is there duck-tape (or something like it) on some of the units at the point where the fiberglass ends meet the steel bodies? Is that to assist in the prevention of water damage? Just curious.
Doug aka BMTman
That was left there by the Bondo squad when leaks developed between the cowls and the roofs. I saw this on #4412-4413, #4406-4407 and a few others. I don't think every car has this patch.
Wayne
That's what some of our beloved Redbirds need - duct tape!
Well, they've been resolving some of the rust patches, especially on the R33's found on the #2. I found very few there on my last trip.
Ditto for MOST of the #7 cars. Now, the R26, R28, and R29 cars - that is a different story. Some have been fixed, others (especially, it seems the R29s on the #6) have alarming patches of rusts at the door jambs, sills, beneath the windows, even some of the number plaques are rusting. The R29 seem to be hurting worse than the R26 and R28.
Wayne
Loewy also did interior/exterior designs for PRR long distance passenger cars -- "The Fleet of Modernism" Peter Tilp has co-authored a well illustrated book on PRR lightweights which covers some of this. I believe the firm also did such plebian stuff as supermarket designs. Its a buck.
Actually, he didn't do much to the GG-1. He really styled it. Mostly, rounding a few corners, cleaning up the origional paint scheme,relocating a bell, and, most importanly, switching to a smooth, welded, exterior. This was done after 4800 proved itself against the now forgotten R-1 (no, not THAT R-1 :) Thus, 4800 is what he was handed, and includes a riveted exterior. 4800 was the only GG-1 of it's type, and lasted as long as the others - it was pulled in the early 80's after it's main transformer burnt out. There were actually a few variations of the GG-1, mostly being electrical or gearing differences. As far as I know, they were all MUable with each other. BTW - when doubleheaded, the GG-1 could not operate above notch 18 (or 22 or 24?) without blowing out the wayside substations.
Yes, all GG-1 units could MU with each other. 4800 through 4859(?) were geared lower than successive units and consequently spent most of their time in freight service after 1943. There were some minor electrical differences as well between the early and late production units. The only run limitations that I am aware of was when the early and late units were MU'd, due to the gearing differences - I hadn't heard anything about electrical overload problems.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What exactly were the electrical differences - I know the PRR swapped between Wesinghouse and GE controls a few times with these things, but I wasn't aware of anything beyond that. Though, I'd *love* to see a schematic for the GG-1 anyway...
As far as I know, that's it - perhaps some minor refinements in the later production, but certainly nothing significant.
As far as a schematic goes, it's possible that the Pennsylvania RR Technical & Historical Society has one at their Lewistown archives - I've been a member for years but never have visited the restored station that houses their collection. There is a wealth of information there, however, including steam-era erecting diagrams, so it's possible a GG-1 schematic exists.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[What exactly were the electrical differences - I know the PRR swapped between Westinghouse and GE controls a few times with these things, but I wasn't aware of anything beyond that. Though, I'd *love* to see a schematic for the GG-1 anyway...]
There was a book published some years back, I'd like to say early 1980's, detailing the history and operation of the PRR GG-1's. I can't put my hands on the book right now so I may have the title correct and can't give the publisher.
The title was, I think, "The Remarkable GG-1". There was plenty of detailed information regarding how the research was done between the G and the R-1. "Trains Magazine" also did a beautiful article in the mid to late 1960's on the GG-1. I know I still have the magazine with the article, but again, I can't put my hands on it at this time.
Growing up in the Philadelphia area in the 1950's and 1960's, it was impossible not to see the G's on a daily basis. They were everywhere! I watched quite a few G's, as they hauled freight along the Thorndale to Morrisville freight line. They were double-headers wheeling 100-car trains.
I got my drivers license and a car in 1968, and after that I went all over the area to railfan. The evening rush hour a Paoli was one of my favorite places. The rush hour would wind down with the "Broadway Limited" pulling into Paoli just before 7 PM, stopping to pick up passengers and depart, heading west for Chicago.
Jim K.
Chicago
Karl Zimmerman is the author, the publisher is Quadrant Press. As you stated, the title is The Remarkable GG-1. The original publication date was in the '70s with a couple of revised editions issued during the '80s. It is a horizontal-format paperback, #6 in a Quadrant Press series, as I recall (I'm not where I can look at my copy right now).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the transportation mode, he designed the original Senicruiser for GM and Greyhound......
When I look at my book called "New York City Subway Cars" I look at some picture and i saw Green Subway Cars. I remember i saw a Green Subway Cars ran on Lexingtion Ave Exp in the late 80s but i couldn't write down the number because they were on Express. So any one tell me how many Green Subway Cars before they pick Red? What the number of subway cars? I know there is R21 #7075 and R33ML #8843-8844.
Several series of subway cars were delivered during the 1950s and 1960s with dark green exteriors. These were BMT/IND series R16, R27 and R30, and IRT series R21, R22, R26 and R28.
After a few months of operation, however, most of these were covered by grime, and looked the same gray/black color as the rest of the fleet (car washers didn't come into general use until the late '60s).
- Ed Sachs
The R10s were given a Pullman Green (Hunter Green) paint job just prior to their retirement in 1989.
Wayne
In the late 80's I believe there was only one full train (10-car) that was painted green on the IRT. This train (while green) operated on the #4 line, but I also saw it on the #2 a few times.
I rode it on the #4 line, but at the time I thought it was a solid train of mainline R-33's. I never knew there were any green R-21's until I bought Greller's book.
I'm not sure about the fleet numbers, but I vaguley (or thougt they were) remember 8836-8845. Anyone know for sure???
Wayne
Justin: About May 1985 the following R-33 where painted in the Pullman-Green paint scheme:8842-3,8846-7,8848-9,8856-7,8860-1,8862-3.
Some time later R-17 6677 and R-21 7075 were also painted green and run in the same train as needed. The R-17 didn't stay green long as she was reported scrapped by Nov 86. 8862-3 was also painted green on the inside.
The green paint job was done concurently with the Fox Red on other R-types and around the same time the R-10's were also painted green.
IMHO the green paint job looked very classy on the R-10's but was a disaster on the R-33's
Larry,RedbirdR33
Anyone know anything about the transit system in Toronto? What kinds of cars, similiarities and differences to the system here in NYC?
Thats a large question. The first subways were built at Toronto Streetcar gauge that is 4' 10 7/8" compared to standard 4'8 1/2"
The LVR extension and the last subway built in toronto are standard gauge I believe. Does anyone know for sure?
The Toronto system is nice. Very easy to use and convinient. I think the subway were all built after WW-II so it is modern when compared to the system in NY>
All subways in Toronto are built to the "streetcar" gauge of 4'10 7/8". This was for the ability to use common work equipment on both the Yonge Subway (Canada's first) and the surface system. Once the Yonge subway was built to Toronto gauge, all TTC subways are.
Toronto has two heavy rail subway lines. One, the Yonge-University-Spadina is a north-south line, which is shaped like a U. The other line is the Bloor-Danforth, which serves as the east-west counterpart. Both are track gauge 4 ft. 10 7/8 inches. The reason for the unique gauge is because if follows the streetcar systems gauge.
A third line connects to the Bloor-Danforth Line at the east end. It was build using liner induction technology, like the SkyTrain in Vancouver. There has been talk recently on replacing this problematic line with either a heavy rail or a limited tram car right-of-way. If this does happen, the TTC will have gone full circle, because when this line was originally proposed it was supposed to be a tram line. Politics intervened and the “new” technology was used.
The streetcar system in Toronto is the largest in North American. There are seven (7) full time, and two limited operation lines still operating using a fleet of 196 CLRV’s built in 1978-79, and 52 ALRV’s built in the mid-1980’s.
Although the days of more lines and hundreds of PCC cars are over, if you really want to witness one of the better systems (by North American standards), put Toronto on your list of places to ride!
Jim K.
Chicago
I'll be doing just that in the middle of May.
Anyone aware of photography requirements for TTC?
--Mark
There is nothing in the TTC by-law that prohibits non commecial photography.
Over the past three months I have taken hundreds of pictures of TTC vehicles, often in the presence of drivers or inspectors and none of them have ever told me not to. Some gave me odd looks while others were happy to strike up a conversation about transit.
If you like, you can email me and I can give you some hotspots for picture taking around town.
Cheers
Rob H
When in May? there are a group of Transit people heading up ther for the APTA International Rail Rodeo on the 22nd.
If you would like to see pictures of the cars of the Toronto subway system check out:
http://www.toptown.com/hp/archives/subway/frame.html
Currently Toronto is receiving an order of over 300 75' T-1 Subway cars from Bombardier. They are being built in the former Hawker Siddley plant in Thunder Bay, ON. That will permit the withdrawl of all non-air conditioned units (M1, H1,2 and 4), as well as providing the cars for the new Sheppard line scheduled to open in just over two years.
The good news about the new cars is that they do not have transverse cabs, so the railfan window and hopefully the conductor postion will be saved here.
As for the similarities to the NY system. The signalling is a little different, but not radically so. There are tons of timing signals and the cars are not capable of much speed. There is better service here however. The longest scheduled headway is six minutes (even at one in the morning) and 2-3 minutes in rush hour.
A unique feature of the Toronto system is that many of the subway stations feature bus bays avoiding the need to go outside and use a paper transfer to go from bus / streetcar to the subway.
Aside from the streetcar network, Toroto is also a good place to come to see vintage buses. Currently the TTC is rebuilding many of their 1975-1981 fishbowls.
Does the system run all night? With six minute headways????!!!???
The Toronto subways do not operate all night. In the dead of the night, the subways close and are replaced by night buses that do not run that often.
Last trains from the downtown area are roughly around 1:50 am daily. From that point on night buses take over and at first their headways are fairly frequent especially on weekends (every few minutes). As the night draws on major routes, such as Yonge and Bloor Streets have approximately 15 minute headways. Other night lines, including some streetcar lines which operate 24 hours, have anywhere between 15 and 30 minute headways. Vehicles are, in theory, supposed to meet at transfer points (mainly in the downtown area) to help reduce the time required in transferring. There have been times when I have been home faster on night buses than the subway!
The Toronto subway was opened in 1954. The original route was a 4.6 mile strech that ran under Younge Street from Eglinton to Union Station. The system used cars built by the Gloucester Railway Wagon and Carriage Company from Bristol in England. The Bloor line opened in 1966 from Keele Street to Woodbine (eight miles). Since then, both lines have been extended. The Scarborough RT opened in 1985. I wouldn't reccomend riding it since it goes through a hideously ugly part of town. The traditional method for constructing the subways in Toronto is now by tunneling (although stations are cut and cover).
The Sheppard subway is being constructed from Sheppard and Younge Streets on the Younge line to Don Mills Street. It is due to open in 2002. The station designs look very nice. If you want more information go to the TTC website at www.city.toronto.on.ca/ttc/.
There have been numerous plans to Extend the Younge Subway to York U. and to construct a subway on Eglinton Av. West. They have all been postponed due to lack of funding from the province.
If you want more information go to the TTC website at www.city.toronto.on.ca/ttc/. There is also a book out in the Toronto area called The TTC Story: The First 75 Years by Mike Filey. It is put out by Dundrun Press.
Yossi E.
First of all, it's YONGE, not YOUNGE Street. And secondly, I disagree that the Scarborough RT line goes through an ugly part of Scarborough. From Kennedy Stn. to Lawrence East Stn. it either passes through a residential area or open field (hydro line corridor). The part between Lawrence East and Ellesmere does, admittedly, pass through an industrial neighbourhood, with the backs of these buildings covered in some rather interesting multi-colour graffiti. But from Ellesmere to Scarborough Centre Stn. the line, after a brief underground part, becomes elevated and passes over more light industrial plants (including the outdoor pickling vats of Bick's Pickles - now partially obscurred by a barrier erected by the TTC). I find the passing tableau far more interesting than the grey concrete walls of the subway. But then, to each his own!
Another feature of the Spadina subway, is that from Eglinton West Stn. north to Wilson Stn., the line is in the median of the Allan Expressway. What's really interesting is the part between Yorkdale and Wilson Stns. where the expressway meets Highway 401 (a 12-lane freeway)and the trains pass through a major freeway interchange with underpasses and overpasses all around.
Firstly, thank you for the correction. I can see your point about the RT but being a YONGE Line rider, I am used to the greener sections around Davisville and Rosedale (even though on the RT you can see further since you are not in a trench).
Is there a TTC subway map in view on the web anywhere? I have spent quite a while looking and have not been successful.
[Is there a TTC subway map in view on the web anywhere? I have spent quite a while looking and have not been successful]
There is a map of the TTC Subway on the TTC's Webpage at:
http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/ttc/index.htm
Just download the "Ride Guide".
HOWEVER, if you are looking for a track map you need to go no further than the NYC Subway Org. pages. The best part is that you are already there. The track map is located at:
http://www.nycsubway.org/transitmaps/ttc-subway-track-sm.gif
Explore all the information that NYC Subway Org has to offer. It is VERY extensive. Again, thank you to everyone who makes time to provide this service to us.
Jim K.
Chicago
I will have about twenty of the latest Toronto transit maps with me on the Philadelphia charter on Sunday. They're dated October 1998 and are already outdated, because they're changing the names of some express bus routes. I got them on Friday last week while I was out joyriding on Toronto streetcars and subways.
Since I'm going to be without access to e-mail and Subtalk from Wednesday afternoon this week through Monday next week, I can't take requests, but can probably pick up more during the summer if people want them.
I'll also have some brochures from the Halton County Radial Railway, the Ontario Electric Railway Historical Association's museum about 50 miles west of Toronto.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
And I'll add a plug for the Halton County Radial Railway - I visited there with my wife and children in the summer of '93 - excellent! It offers a look at Canadian transit in much the same manner as the two museums in Connecticut, including a pair of retired Toronto subway cars. At the time, their gift shop also offered a very good video, obviously home-grown from the packaging but of professional quality, that showed much of their equipment. The shop was also open for tours, guided by a volunteer, so you could see restoration in progress up close.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[And I'll add a plug for the Halton County Radial Railway - I visited there with my wife and children in the summer of '93 - excellent!]
Halton County Radial Railways is a First Class operation! The pride and the spirit of volunteerism really shows while your visiting there. I'm looking forward to a visit there this summer.
Jim K.
Chicago
A few weeks ago, the Halton County Radial Railway got a Chicago El car (I'm not sure what type). They will be alternating between the TTC cars and the CTA cars every other day. All the more reason to visit it!
Yossi E.
[A few weeks ago, the Halton County Radial Railway got a Chicago El car (I'm not sure what type).]
Halton County Radial Railway purchased CTA car #48, one of 50 cars built using the parts scrapped PCC streetcars.
In 1947-48, the CTA received new 600 PCC streamliners. 310 cars came from builder Pullman-Standard and 290 came from builder St. Louis Car Company.
By 1955, these cars were being retired, sent off to St. Louis Car, to be scrapped. All useable PCC components were stockpiled (i.e. motors, seats, windows, etc.). The components were used to "finish out" newly built rapid transit cars that followed the design of the original PCC rapid transit car order, numbers 6001-6200. 570 cars (260 pairs and 50 singles)were reincarnated from PCC streetcars to PCC rapid transit cars and helped replace outdated wooden 'L' cars still operating in Chicago.
Jim K.
Chicago
Kenosha Wis has 5 Toronto 4600 PCC cars that will be retrucked with CTA B3 trucks that were from the Chicago Green Hornet Streetcars before being used on the the 6000 and 5-50 series "L" cars. Sometimes things go full circle.
When I was at Halton County last Saturday, they had already changed the trucks on the Chicago car to Toronto PCC trucks. The Chicago trucks were there also; it's not too often that one gets a chance to look closely at trucks from the top down. There's a possibility of regauging the Chicago trucks to fit the museum gauge (Toronto gauge) as other museums do with particular cars.
The el car will have to operate from overhead, though, and they'll have to decide whether to install a pantograph or a trolley pole. Chicago had trolley poles on Evanston and some other lines, so it would be reflective of Chicago practice if not strictly accurate for that car. Chicago also still uses pantographs on the Skokie Swift (Yellow Line), so a pantograph wouldn't be that far from reality either.
One other Toronto note--the streetcar extension along Queen's Quay from Spadina has its concrete subbase largely in place almost to Bathurst and wiring is going in. The extension will be on reserved right of way. Trolley poles will be between the tracks. What a pleasure it is to watch a streetcar line under construction. Probably the last time that happened in New York was the rebuilding of the McDonald Avenue route from Shell Road onto Neptune Avenue onto the private right-of-way to West Fifth Street terminal. Just a short stretch, but probably the last new streetcar tracks in New York.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsam
[The el car will have to operate from overhead, though, and they'll have to decide whether to install a pantograph or a trolley pole. Chicago had trolley poles on Evanston and some other lines, so it would be reflective of Chicago practice if not strictly accurate for that car. Chicago also still uses pantographs on the Skokie Swift (Yellow Line), so a pantograph wouldn't be that far from reality either.]
Ed -
The CTA experimented with different types of pantographs on equipment used in Skokie Swift Service. They finally fitted the cars used on Skokie, 51-54 (the bugs), and some single unit 1-50's (I don't know specifically which cars).
Halton could fit the car with either pantograph or trolley pole, however, I don't know if a pantograph would be consistent with their overhead. I, for one, would like to see a trolley pole on top of #48.
Jim K.
Chicago
Here I live in Toronto and follow transit issues closely and didn't know they'd already started the Queen's Quay extension. Must check that out this weekend. (We're currently waiting to see whether there'll be a TTC strike in the next day or two.)
Another recent track installation, albeit small, was last fall when the provided a loop via a side street for the Spadina Streetcar line (510). Southbound cars can now shortturn at King and return north. The loop begins at Adelaide Street (where track has always been) and continues one block east to Charlotte Street. It is there that the new track continues south to King. Provision was made at King for cars to be able to turn west (to continue the loop back to Spadina) or to turn east (presumably for emergency use).
Anyone who is familiar with the King and Spadina or Queen and Spadina intersections will know that the network of tracks at each (allowing cars to turn in virtually every direction) is quite a sight.
Unfortunately, the subway map (which is what I want rather than the track plan) is a PDF file, and I am trying to avoid installing acrobat (I don't want two different font systems cluttering up my computer). Thanks for the info anyway.
Max Roberts
Before the and switch terminals, how did the and configuration work out? I was too young to remeber, but I did remember the running out of New Lots and there would trains was stored on the express track. I know the and did not run to Flatbush all day. Did the and run to Utica all day?
Hey 3TrainMike go to 2-3 switch .
Peach out JUSTIN2669
I was in Hyde Park the other day. Just north of the Mid-Hudson Bridge there is another bridge. The bridge appears to have no deck and also appears that it is no longer in use. Does anyone know what bridge it is and what it was used for?
HTHM Question: I want to ad a midi file to my website that will play on start-up. How do I embed the file? Thanks in advance for the help
this bridge was the new haven bridge from maybrook ny to hopewell jct. the new haven meet the l&h rr at maybrook. before the building of the hudson tube to penn station they even run passager service from washington to boston.
There was an extensive thread on this subject a couple of weeks ago. (Don't recall the subject title). Evidently the bridge deck and some of the stucture burned while the Penn Central was in bankrupcy years ago, and it has never been repaired.
Search back looking for info about the Poughkeepsie Bridge. There's a web site about it listed in the Transfer Station.
As the previous posting says, it is an old New Haven RR bridge. It opened in 1888, and was in use until 1974 when a fire destroyed part of the trackway. It has been sitting abandoned for the past 25 years.
Hey Redbird33 & Steve B. and all you subway and LIRR fans out there; I just got back online. Seems I didn't have a surge protector on the phone line and I fried my modem. Oh well 4 days later and $60 lighter in the wallet I'm back online!
Any more suggestions, info etc on the Polo grounds shuttle remnants? Any one been there lately?
I heard from my friend who went to the open house at Coney Island yard. Bill said the ABs have come a long way but are starting to look real good. The D-types need some body work and TLC, and there are plenty of R9s to go around. Anyone for a fan trip?
Hard to believe but this year marks the 30th anniversery of some pretty events. NO! it's not the first landing on the moon. NO it's not the Mets and the Jets winning championships. I'm talking some real important news!
For those who haven't guessed the events yet: This year marks the 30th anniversary of the last run of the ABs in revenue service, and the closing of the Myrtle Ave el. How's that for news? And do you think any local media will mention these events? NAH!
gimme dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me!
Mike H
October 3 is a Sunday this year - maybe I will head out to Myrtle-Broadway (they should be finished with the rehab by then - all they have left is cosmetic work) and take a ride up to Metropolitan.
I was there on Oct. 3, 1969 - it was a Friday night. Dad, Mom and I all took two trips up and down the line. Dad still has his fan, Mom her bulb (she can't use it - it's threaded backwards) and I have my leather strap. And a bunch of 1600-A-B-C car numbers to boot. Too bad they tore down the "MJ".
Wayne
Wayne,
Thanks for the reply, if you could also look at my question posed to RedbirdR33 in my last message.
Thanks Mike H
Mike: I don't know if you received my post about the Polo Grounds Shuttle so I'll briefly repeat the info. If you can obtain them there are two good books with info and good pictures of the 155-167 Line both when the railroad ran it and the el.
"The Putnam Division" by Daniel R Gallo and Frederick A Kramer
Quadrant Press,19 W 44 St, NY,NY 10036 (1981)
"The Tracks of New Yorl;Number 3,Manhatan and Bronx Elevated Railroads,1920" by the Electric Railroaders Assoc (1976)
If you didn't receive my other posts please e-mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com and I'll give you what info I have.Sorry to hear about your computer.
Larry,RedbirdR33
RedbirdR33,
Thanks much for the info, Ill keep your online address in mind. Are you going to explore the Polo Grounds shuttle remnants? I heard a TA employee, I think it's Glen Smith, has done it.
I'll tell you, every time spring rolls around I think back to my youth spent on 86th st and at Brighton Beach Baths, watching from the street those magnificent ABs and D-types pass overhead. I'm only 43 years old, but I was lucky enough to see both of these cars in revenue service so frequently that my memories of both of them are still vivid!
Those rattan seats, the overhead paddle fans, the unique and distinctive sounds of their acceleration and braking, all that was missing was air conditioning.
Here's a interesting question to you and anyone out there in Subtalk: Why is the culver el between Ave X and Neptune Ave (the old Van Siclen Station) lattice work while the rest oof the el is heavy duty plate girder? I think this section is the last lattice work el in the city still standing, is it not?
I think I know the answer to this as I believe Don Harold told me years ago, (I'll have to ask him again, next time I see him) He informed me that the area in question was marshy fill and it was feared that a standard plate girder el would be too heavy to support. Could this be true?
Mike H
This year marks the 30th anniversary of the last run of the ABs in revenue service, and the closing of the Myrtle Ave el.
This sounds like a great excuse for a fantrip! ERA / NYTM, are you listening???
--Mark
Mark;
Here! Here! Somehow the subways lost a lot of their character when the last of the bull and pinion geared cars were removed from revenue service. Don't get me wrong, I still am a fan of the subways, especially the BMT/IND lines, but without the whine and growl of the cars as they accelerated out of the stations and the sounds of them braking to a stop, it just isn't the same.
Remember: Gimme dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me!
Mike H
Ah, 1969. What a year. Luckily, I'm old enough to remember it vivdly, and do remember all those events you alluded to. I'll be totally honest: at the time, I wasn't sorry to see the last of the BMT standards head out to pasture. I just plain didn't like them. No signs up front, and three sets of doors on each side instead of four on the IND/BMT R units. Heading back to Manhattan on the Canarsie, I couldn't wait to get to Union Square and transfer to the Broadway line for an express ride on an N of those bright, shiny cars with the blue doors and the N/57th Street signs up front - the R-32s. I guess I'm more fond of the BMT than I thought. It must have been the R-32s that did it.
I've come to appreciate the standards now.
Steve,
When you rode on the ABs you felt like you were in a living room, they were THAT big and roomy! Also, they were the 1st cars I remember seeing, me standing in front of Buster Brown shoe store on 86th street and looking overhead seeing these wonderful old cars passing.
And what sounds, the bull and pinion gears, the brakes etc, the big paddle fans, the 3 across seats and of course the conductor having to stand between the middle doors at the panel to operate the opening and closing of them!
Let's not forget their whislte too. How many times I remember being at the front of a West End train waiting to get into Stillwell and the motorman blowing the whistle to alert the tower. If I could only have one day back then.
Mike H
P.S. Those D-types were no slouches either, they went together with the ABs like Peanut butter and jelly, can't have without the other!
Recently (over the past couple of months), there has been a new turnout installed on the LIC approach to East river tunnel line #2.
The location is just as the track comes up to grade level, directly opposite the Hunters Point Ave platform.
Traveling east, it is a facing point move, and the turnout leads north of the straight direction.
What I don't understand is where this track is supposed to go? In this location, there is about 15 feet between this track, and the #7 line, which is also climbing out from the tunnel, and about 500 ft after the switch, line #4 emerges from the tunnel. I don't think that there is enough room to get _under_ the #7 line there (or if there was, it would be quite a squeeze), so what's this track for?
-SteveK
To confuse us rail fans :)
The turnout restores sub 4, a connection to Tunnel Line 2 from Sunnyside that was in the original layout. It was removed 5-10 years ago. These tracks leave Sunnyside near Q tower as sub 1, sub 2, sub 3, sub 4. The first two go under the LIRR main to Line 2. Sub 3 and 4 are north of the LIRR. Sub 3 goes to Line 2, sub 4 to Line 2. PRR numbering went low to high, south to north. The restored route will help trains loop at Sunnyside but swing around its outer edge and back to Line 2. It may relate to the new Amtrak maintenance facility for the high speed trainsets.
It seems like most of the No.3 Trains have transverse in the 1st and last cars. Here are the cars with the wide cabs.
1916,1920,1921,1925,1926,1931,1935,1940,1945,1950,1951,1946, Those are cars I seen already.
The No.1 now has 2436,2440.
Yesterday on the No.1 Line I have Transvse cabs all 3 trips from 137 St. car 2440 on my 1st and last trip and 2236 for the 2nd trip.
Hey Pelham Bay Dave are the # 3 going to be 10 cars? Are these cars going to # 7 lines? Well i just want to know.
Peace Out Justin2669
Well they are still 9 cars and NO LINKS yet. The No.3 Line cars will be used for the Grand Central Shuttle. The No.6 Pelham R62A'S are being linked. Right now I can't help but think the might not link the 3 Line R 62A's for a long time. As far as the No.7 Line who knows. I really gave up on this issue because a RCI on the No.6 Line tells me the R62A on the No.6 Line are going to main St. Then on the No.1 Line they say there cars are going over. So right now I don't think no one knows whats going on. All you can do is guess.
Maybe cars from both the 1 and the 6 are going to the 7. That would make sense, because the 7 can now be all R-62As. Could the R-142 construction problems be the reason for the switch to R-62As for the 7? Or is it just because they want to take the single R-33s, which have no A/C, out of service?
Of course I'm just guessing here, too.
They'll probably link them eventually & run them somewhere since it follows the normal last digit pattern: 1, 5 and 6, 0
Could someone clarify for me: R62 vs. R62A ... which of the new IRTs have the full width cabs. They're realy stinko for a rail fan to try look thru :-(
Mr t__:^)
[Could someone clarify for me: R62 vs. R62A ... which of the new IRTs have the full width cabs. They're realy stinko for a rail fan to try look thru]
I lament the loss of the railfan seat on the CTA 'L'. Anyone who has occupied "the seat" knows exactly what I'm talking about.
CTA 'L' cars were designed to have TWO large front windows. One was for the sight line for the motorman in the cab, but the left side also had a large window also. A single side facing seat just opposite of the motor cab allowed the railfan to share the same view of the right-of-way that the motorman had. It was the best railfan accommodation I've ever come across in North America.
This design was, I'm sure, encouraged by Mr. George Krambles, who held management positions in the CTA from its inception in 1947 through 1980. Mr. Krambles, a co-founder of CERA, was also a railfan himself and he and his team saw to it that the railfan community was able to enjoy the thrill of 'L'. I know I logged many hours in that seat.
The design was included in fleet orders of cars beginning with the 6000’s delivered in the 1950’s and ending with the 2600’s delivered in the mid-1980’s. The design was broken when the 3200 series was delivered in the early 1990’s. These cars, although well designed and comfortable, began the era of OPTO on the CTA. These cars do, however, have a good view out the left hand front window “through” the motor cab area, however, you have to stand now go enjoy it.
OPTO, it has eliminated many advantages of riding rapid transit.
Jim K.
Chicago
I have noticed that on some of the R62 (62a?) on the 4 and 6 even the small window is now gone-- they replaced the window and lock with solid metal (smooth finish rather than the 'striped' finish)
To my untrained eye- the R62 (a) were converted by unfolding the higned panel after removing two seats and then locked into place-I've seen some cabs open and there is a doorway to where the narriow cab door would have been (it is now the door to the full cab)- I did not enter but could see from the public side of the area.
A single side facing seat just opposite of the motor cab allowed the railfan to share the same view of the right-of-way that the motorman had. It was the best railfan accommodation I've ever come across in North America.
PATCO's (Port Authority Transit COrporation) Lindenwold Line cars have a similar setup. The train operator, however, operates from the left and the railfan seat is on the right.
--Mark
R 62's are made from Kawasaki and the car Nos. are from 1301-1625 and all run currently on the No.4 Jerome Ave Line. All R 62'S have no rail fan window. Also T/O can put there coat on the hook which covers the window. So you may have to sit the trip out on those trains.
R-62A's are on the No.1,3,5,6,S Lines. The OPTO shuttle ofcause have Transvers cabs. The No.5 gets the wide cabs from the No.6 Line. The No.1,3,6 Line you still can maybe get a rail fan window. You have a good chance to get a front window on the No.1 Line. Also the R62A car Nos. are from 1651-2475 from Bombardier.
What Happen from 1626-1650?
I will be home next month, and will be looking to take one of my subway rides throughout the city. One of my home lines is the train. What are my chances of getting a front window? By the way, I want to travel on the and expresses in the Bx. I guess I have to wait for a Redbird......
I hate to inform you most No.3 Trains have the wide cabs in the front and even more next Mouth. You have a 1 out of 20 Chance of getting your window. Stick to the Redbirds if possible. I'm Working the No.2 Line once a week starting next mouth to Operate them before they go to the Scrap Yard. Also you have a very good chance of catching a redbird on the No. 5 and No.6 Lines.
One more thing How do you make those Bullets?
I can't wait to operate them TO the scrap yard.
When the day comes that the subway is 100 percent stainless steel cars, it will be the end of a 100-year era in New York City.
Not a thing to celebrate.
'Not a day to celebrate' a fleet that is 100% graffitti-free, 100% air conditioned, has high MDBF numbers, large, legible destination signs, reduced maintainece costs, rust free, is easily cleaned, and modern, bright interiors?
-Hank
So, are you saying you would have rather there never been any ABs, Lo Vs, R-10s, R-33/36s, etc. (I'll conceed the R-16s).
If the MTA had done a better job with preventive maintenance and the city had done a better job controlling crime in the period from the 1960s through the early 90s, there wouldn't have been as many mechanical problems and there wouldn't have been as much graffiti -- meaning fewer trips through the car washers and less rusting on the Redbirds than there are now.
Judging by that report in the Post last month about the problems with the new cars, I fear for the day every train in the system is clean, bright and shiny, and runs as fast as the R-68.
The only thing I'll miss about the old equipment is the front window. And forget the carwashers causing the rust on the redbirds. They've been stored in the great outdoors there entire life. Not good for anything. Maintainence costs increase with the age of the equipment, no matter how lovingly you treat it. All those cars you mention had their day, but do you drive anywhere in a 50 year old car every day, 12 hours a day, for 48 weeks? How good is that vehicle going to look?
The problem is, we're all thinking like railfans. We need to think more like commuters, or operators. You need to weigh the costs and benefits of improving what exists, or replacing it.
-Hank
I agree everything has its lifespan, and pushing the Redbirds past a certain point is asking for breakdowns, service delays, etc. But that doesn't mean I have to feel good about the future of a whole fleet of stainless steel cars with no railfan windows and possibly with their power cut to R-68 levels. Nice looking, but when the Redbird depart the IRT is going to lose some of its personality, and when the R32s through R-42s go the BMT/IND look like they're going to lose both its look and speed (I'm hoping the return to 60-foot cars with the R-143s will solve that latter problem)
God willing, the R-32s thru R-42s will still be around for a while. Let's just hope their cabs remain the way they are. A lot of us will be downright upset if their cabs are converted to full-width.
What has the train operators got against looking through the front windows ? they pull curtains across the window,hang coats across it as if they don't want anyone to see whats ahead.....true ?
What does the transit system have agnest rail fan windows ?
Well I don't know if the have agenst it but the main reason for Wide cabs is One Person Train Operation.
There is difference between the R142 that is posted on this site and the 142 under the Bombadier site. Which is the R142 and which is the R142A? Is the R142 picture under this site a Kawasaki version? I looked under the Kawasaki website and it does not have any info on subway cars? What is the correct site for Kawasaki subway cars?
The R142 on this site is a mock-up, it isn't a production model. I didn't actually see it myself but it's probably one of those cardboard and tinfoil type things :-)
I have not seen a web site for Kawasaki's transit products.
-Dave
Dear Colleagues: Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe the use of nine car trains on the #3 has something to do with the platforms at 145 St. These were built I believe to hold only a five car local train, but remember that on the old IRT equiptment the front and rear doors of the train did not open on the platform but were closed off when in train service and usually were in the tunnel. I do not think the short platforms could accomodate a five car R-type where all doors open. Doesn't the #3 stop at 145 St and open on the four car section?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes the first 4 cars on the No.3 Line opens at 145 Street. But That is not the reason for the 9 cars. A 10 Car train can also stop at 145 St and Lenox. The first 5 cars can open just like South Ferry.
IIRC it is the platform length at 148th St. which limits the overall train length. A 10 car train will not clear the interlocking.
Sometimes during reroutes the runs to 148th. Do they operate 9 car trains then?
Hold on a minute! I thought that the reason 9 car trains run on the 3 is because of the yard limitations at Lenox Yard, not the station itself. As for #2 reroutes, all 10 cars should make it into 148 ST, otherwise, they wouldn't run there and instead terminate elsewhere.
-Constantine
A 10 Car train can make a Perfict 10 Stop at 148 Street. I did that on a No.2 Train. You are right about what the problem is.
Actually, there are even some tracks at Lenox yard that will hold 10 car trains. I know that tracks 6 and 7 - the second and third tracks in the yards can hold ten cars, because on Sunday there were a pair of 2 trains on those tracks. As for 145th St, going downtown the 3 opens the first four cars, although five cars can be opened there. Going uptown, every train opens 5 cars because that's all that fits.
I have been told that the 3 runs nine cars because the tenth car gets in the way of the 142nd St interlocking, thereby tieing up downtown 2 service.
In reading the questions and comments about 145th Street and 148th Street and #3 trains, I'm confused. Are you saying that a train with nine cars stopping at 145th Street doesn't open the all the doors on the platform side? Do the doors on several of the cars remain closed?
What about other length trains?
It's been about three years since I was last there, but with riding in the railfan position, I didn't pay any attention to which doors opened or did not open.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed: 148 St-Lenox Terminal can hold a full ten car train. The platforms at 145 St are original length for 5 car local trains so the conductor only opens the four car section of a nie car train.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As a teen riding the Brighton line, my friends and I were always perplexed about the spacing between the Beverly Rd. stop and the Cortelyou station. As soon as the train pulled out of Beverly, we were entering Cortelyou.
Over the years I've heard stories that a wealthy businessman lived alongside the Brighton cut and wanted his "own station" built (both the famed Ebinger bakery family and the inventor of Ex-Lax lived in the neighborhood). Another story has it that one of the BMT bigwigs lived adjacent to the line at that point and had the station built for himself.
Any truth to any of the above?
Doug aka BMTman
There is indeed a story, but IIRC it has to do with Beverl(e)y Road, not Cortelyou Road. The story I've heard says that the developer of houses in that neighborhood had the station put in.
David
I understand the TA wanted to close Beverly Road, since it is a short walk from either Cortelyou or Church. But, as on the Franklin Avenue Subway, history trumps geography.
Beverly and Cortelyou Road stations are adjacent to Prospect Park South and Ditmas Park respectively. These neighborhoods were developed for the wealthy and politically connected at the turn of the century. When the line was put into a ditch, it was of course impossible to snub one group or the other, so both stations were built.
To this day, the neighborhoods are the home to many well connected people. People are even willing to live there with the subway in their backyard. It is one of those places that makes the city a great place to live.
It seems to me that an open cut/embankment line like the Brighton has less of an impact than an elevated. With the train on solid ground, you just don't get the same amount of noise. The Brighton is quiet. Our pediatrician is two blocks from the Kings Highway stop on Quentin. From the street, you look over and suddenly a train pulls in -- you never heard it.
I heard the subway at Murrow HS. We had to pause sometimes just to let the trains pass through. Teachers would get upset and start complaining that the TA were supposed to put rubber tracks between Ave.J and Kings Hwy. I didnt mind the interruptions however. I always had a seat by the window to look at the trains and fellow students smoking in the courtyard. :) :) :)
[It seems to me that an open cut/embankment line like the Brighton has less of an impact than an elevated. With the train on solid ground, you just don't get the same amount of noise.]
And there's surely a lot less noise than you'd get from a busy roadway.
I live on E13th and Kings Hwy in the front apartment. Clear summer nights you can hear the trains go buy (20 minute headway). Sometimes a work train but now that the garbage train is box motors, you don't hear them as loud as a work train.
I've been living on East 15 Street, just south of Neck Road
station for more than 40 years. (The abandonded ramp to the
old Sheepshead Bay Race Track is between us and the SB local
track.) The B-types with "square wheels" were a bit noisey
during the late 1950's, but the worst was the R-44's with
the cracking trucks and the "fix" which consisted of lengths
of pipe: sounded like a rolling junk yard (before welded rail.)
Otherwise, it's kind of comforting to hear the trains pass
at night.
Just thought I'd relay this story: I took my wife last year to Coney Island for her first time (she's a born and bred Long Island girl*). After we did the boardwalk and the Cyclone I wanted to show her a rapid transit line that was VERY different than what she was used to when she commuted to work in Mid-town Manhattan.
So, of course I got us on a D Train (R-68). When we got to the Sheepshead Bay station she remarked, "this is almost like the LIRR!" (with that, I couldn't tell if the statement was a compliment or a slap in the face). I told her that all subway lines aren't underground and dreary. And of course I proceeded to tell her of the virtues of the origins of the BMT subway system and how most of Brooklyn's original subway lines started as independent railroad companies vying for "a piece of the action', so to speak.
I can safely say that my wife got well indoctrinated into NYCT and it's lure on that Coney Island excursion!
Doug aka BMTman
*Even Brooklynites are Long Islanders in a geographical sense ;-)
[So, of course I got us on a D Train (R-68). When we got to the Sheepshead Bay station she remarked, "this is almost like the LIRR!" (with that, I couldn't tell if the statement was a compliment or a slap in the face).]
As an LIRR commuter, I can ASSURE you that it was a slap in the face!
Just imagine the Brighton line when the ABs and D-types held down service! Something about ABs at Stllwell on the West End, Sea Beach and Brighton line, R9s on the Culver (remember I was born in 1956, after the connection to the IND on the Culver.) and D-types on the mixed with the Abs onthe Sea beach line at Coney Island, and the D-types on the Brighton terminating at Brighton Beach.
Well so much for nostalgia!
Next time, take her on a Q of slant R-40s and see what she thinks when it blows by a D train.
Some may remember my question a couple of months ago, i.e. is the Branford Steam Railroad (BSRR) still in existance (not to be confused with the Baranford Elect. Railway, i.e. Shoreline Trolley Museum).
Well it is still there. On my way to FoxWoods this weekend, just past exit 55 on the Conn Turnpike (95) it ducks under the road. I got off at exit 56 and basically took State Road 146 South then West where I came to a crossing gate and a single pair of tracks that were obviously still in use. As I had a non rail buff in the car my detour had to be cut short. The wife did say that Short Beach looked like a nice place to live.
P.S. A extensive article on this short line (trap rock hauler) ran in the April 1990 issue of Railfan & Railroad.
Mr t__:^)
Or get off at Exit 55, go up US1 for a few blocks, then take
route 139 and you'll reach a crossing. BSRR is still in
operation, from what I've heard. Of course, there hasn't
been *steam* operated there for ages!
Short Beach is a nice place to live and a little pricey.
Why was rerouted over to the West End line? I know it had something to do with the Manhattan Bridge reconstruction.......
Originally, it was because of the track work on the Brighton, which began at the same time as the bridge work. It would have been complicated to work the M into the skip-stop pattern (they did it in '64, though), so they moved it. Then, it just became fixed there, and they fear the Brighton riders would not want the shorter trains going to lower Manhattan after years of being used to having the two full length bridge services
In today's newspaper, there is a story about a man who commited suicide on the tracks @ 3Av.
www.mostnewyork.com/citybeat
Which paper had it?
New York Daily news, it was an even page (left side) down by the bottom edge of the paper (gave the paper back after lunch).
Hi, Tower Op here. Article link found right here:
http://www.nydailynews.com/1999-04-12/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-25501.asp?last6days=1
Later
I was caught behind this. I left Times Sq around 5:30 on the N, and on the L platform, I could see the stopped train ahead in the tunnel, and wondered what was going on. Then an announcement was made about an injured passenger. So now, the Williamsburg Br. with no trains running due to the G.O. was the only way to get home. And to make it worsem power was cut on the Lexington as well. So I took the M1 (new Orion 6044), but that only went to 8th St, so I had to change for the M6, to Houston St. The F took a long time, and I had to let 3 shuttle busses pass because there were so many people getting on. (It was pouring rain, by now). Then, you have to take the shuttle from the L to get to Hewes, and when it looped around to get to the Manhattan bound stairway of the J, the train left. So I saw a city cab, and I got the rest of the way home for $8. (I was going to take on from Union Sq to Essex, but held off). It was then 7:00, and I heard on the news that it was a smoke condition. This is life on the eastern Div.
The only reason they're doing these weekend closings is to build this middle platform. But why, so they can close one of the other platforms and token booths? You can see where the footbridge will only cnnect the middle to the Manhattan-bound platform) How much will they save
by this, in comparison to the cost of building this platform?
This is taken from German news reports and is subject to correction:
At 0547 local this morning, the first train of the day on the Wuppertal Schwebebahn monrail, formed by car number 4, fell from the rail into the river below.At least three passengers were killed in what is the first serious accicdent in the system's 98 year history. Provisional reports suggest that workers performing overnight repairs forgot to remove a derail when they finished which caused the wreck
There is a pro-monorail, anti-light rail and subway website on the internet somewhere. One of its points in favor of a monorail is that unlike other modes a monorail cannot derail. I guess it can.
Tragically, the answer is yes. It must be remembered that the Wuppertal is not a "conventional" monorail, however, and by the nature of its design it has a higher potential for derailing than a more conventional one. It is true that a "conventional" monorail, such as the one at Newark Airport, has a derailment risk that is so low as to be statistically insignificant, and while the Wuppertal's risk is considerably lower than that of subway or light rail, it is still much higher than that of a "conventional" monorail installation. The safety factor inherent in any monorail must be balanced against many other factors, such as flexibility and cost, and that is why we have very few monorails today.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Again from the German news and subject to correction:
German authorities are looking to charge the trackworkers with negligent Homicide, as was the case with two shop workers last year who should have sidelined the ICE train that wrecked at 125MPH as some of the wheels were below minimum diamiter, but did not.
Car 4 was to be cut up on the spot.
Thanks for the update. Neither of my "local" papers - the Asbury Park Press in New Jersey and the News and Observer in Raleigh, North Carolina - even had a mention of the accident.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Some really nice pictures of the Wuppertal monorail (but not of the wreck):
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~mt5h-nitu/hiroshi/euro/ruhr/ruhr2.htm
http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/archive01/9712-001.html-ssi
-Dave
I recently saw a documentary on the New York City track maintenance crew. They were baiting rat traps. More interesting to me was the flashing warning lights they used to warn approaching trains of the work area. I am a track foreman from Canada in search of such a light. Would anybody know how I could contact the New York Transit Authority track maintenance crew via e-mail to find out where they acquired these lights?
We use a similar light that runs off of 2 six volt batteries, but it is limited to a straight on view and if not positioned correctly the motormen will not see it. We are interested in finding a flashing light with a 360 degree view for better safety of our personnel.
Please contact me at scott.reid@gov.edmonton.ab.ca
Thank you!
I believe they use 5 ordinary incandecent medium screw base 130 volt bulbs connected in series connected to the third rail and the negative return rail. Five ordinary sockets are mounted on a wood paddle that can hang up in the tunnel.
Thank you for your response. We use a 600 volt overhead wire to run our trains so I guess this would not work for us.
Thanks again.
I'm from Toronto and I've often seen yellow and green lights at track level in our subway. The yellow light advises approaching trains that work crews are up ahead. The train proceeds at a crawl until it reaches a green light. These lights are placed in the middle of the roadbed between the rails. How they are powered I don't know. In areas where the subway is outside, yellow and green flags are used instead and mounted on the lamp standards between the tracks. For more details on how the lights are powered and where they are obtained you may want to contact the Toronto Transit Commission. They list a website on the route map as www.city.toronto.on.ca. This site may be able to help you find what you need.
The flashing warning lights are battery powered lanterns and are used to identify small gangs or single individuals working on the roadway. The 5 lights powered by the third rail are used in areas where large numbers of people are working for extended periods of time, like overnight GOs.
I think he's referring to the lanterns used by track crews. He said 'blinking', and those paddle lights don't blink.
-Hank
Does anyone have the stained glass from the station houses on the Third Avenue El. Let me know.
When the money train goes through the system are armed police with rifles used to protect the money?
When the garbage train goes through the system are guards used to keep the skells from stealing the garbage?
To answer # 2 there are no cops.
To answer #1 all money train employees have fire arms and they do not travel alone but in groups.I will not give more details.
This whole "money train" business sounds like overkill to me. Here in Chicago, the money is collected from the turnstiles and Transit Card machines of the L and subway stations by a CTA employee with a large, locked steel safe on a dolly, accompanied by another, armed, CTA employee. They ride from station to station on the regular trains.
[This whole "money train" business sounds like overkill to me. Here in Chicago, the money is collected from the turnstiles and Transit Card machines of the L and subway stations by a CTA employee with a large, locked steel safe on a dolly, accompanied by another, armed, CTA employee. They ride from station to station on the regular trains.]
I have heard that New York has greatly scaled back use of the money train. Most revenue collection is done by armed NYCT employees using ordinary armored trucks.
When money is involved you would be suprised what some people will got to to get it. Most of them are realy dumb about it, so they get caught, but anyone who collects/moves it is in harms way.
Mr t__:^)
The people who work the money train are armed (except the Train Operator poor guy). I think their title is Revenue Protection Agent or something like that. One operatrion that hasn't moved out of Jay Street to 130 Livingston are the armor cars. They still line the street (Lawrence St. I think) in downtown Brooklyn.
One evening I was in Washington, D.C. and went to get the Metro at the Department of Agriculture. There was this elevator on the street that took you down to the subway. I pressed the button and waited but it didn't seem to be working. I turned to use the stairs and just then the elevator doors opened. I got on. Being from out of town I was not sure what button to press so I hit one that seemed to indicate "train platform" I though I was going to the turnstyles but instead the elevator opened on the far end of the train platform inside the paid fare area. Anyway, the door opened on a dark end of the platform and standing there, in front of a train, were a couple of guys in dark sun glasses and toting Machine Guns. It looked just like a hiest. Needless to say I was not sure if I should get off of the elevator. After a few endless moments of stand off, with these guys not sure what to make of me, one of them finally signaled for me to pass on. I did. It was the Money Train, I figured out. I went upstairs to pay for my ride as I knew I would have to swipe again upon exiting. A little scarry.
I've seen the money train at DeKalb. I hate to say it, but the team of 5 or 6 guards with the pistols don't appear to be the most in-shape folk...
Ever seen the Post Office cops ... even worse !
Mr t__:^)
Many years ago when John Simpson was Prsident of the NYCTA, Hugh Dunne of ERA fame had a big position at the NYCTA. Hugh Dunne actually lived in the West 4th Street Station provided to him by NYCTA.
This is true story and I thought it might of interest.
[Many years ago when John Simpson was Prsident of the NYCTA, Hugh Dunne of ERA fame had a big position at the NYCTA. Hugh Dunne actually lived in the West 4th Street Station provided to him by NYCTA.]
Where in the station did he live? Are there any traces of his "residence" still remaining?
I don't know.
(TA big lived at W 4th St). There seems to be a NY tradition of big shots getting real estate and other perks instead of cash. Perhaps its the liberal tradition which would be against big salaries running up against Manhattan arrogance and the tradition of special deals.
No other Mayor gets a house, and how many get a car and driver? The NYC School Superintendent also gets a house, and many othe high officials get cars and drivers and/or parking spaces. Then there is my beloved union, DC37, with the various white collar criminals at the top living in luxury apartments atop union office buildings (or using them as mistress pads) when not going on junkets to the Caribbean. None of this is part of the modest salary, of course. I wonder if it is taxed as income at the high NYC rates we all have to pay.
From a federal income tax perspective, the value of rental housing provided as part of one's employment is considered taxable income (with a few partial exceptions, such as non-private housing [maid's quarters] and when the employee is on 24-hour call for the particular premises [live-in guard]). State and local income tax laws vary, although most states follow the federal guidelines.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, this past weekend when i was in Toronto i decided to take the TTC down to Union Station from Museum. This was my first time on the TTC and in Toronto. When the train came i got up from the bench and i walked to the end of the train and i had hardly taken 10 steps when i heard the Chime for the door and the shut and the train took off! Very unusal. Are the stop times usually this short on the TTC?
Justin
(Oh I forgot,I was on the Yonge-University line)
Statistically speaking, Museum is the least used subway station on the system so usually the doors open and close in a hurry.
The only places the trains usually wait for a minute or more on the YUS line are the terminals and Eglinton, Bloor, St. George and St. Clair W where they wait if they are ahead of schedule.
I do miss the whistle. The chimes are not the same.
To be technically correct, the Ellesmere Stn. on the Scarborough RT is the least used station in the system (about 1000 people per day). But I agree Museum is not overly busy unless a school group is boarding.
I too, miss the whistles. They were unique. The only trains left where they are used are on the M1 (Montréal built cars from the early 60s) which are currently only used on the Bloor-Danforth line in rush hour and are now in the process of being retired. So when they're gone, so too are the whistles. Of course, if you happened to be walking past the conductor as he blew his whistle, it could be quite a painful experience!
If you want to get te conducter whistle experience come down to Philly for the Frankford El. Theconducters still use whistle but that to will be gone when te ALMOND JOYS are retired. ( No you cant get to heaven on te Frankford L cause the Frankford L goes straight to Frankford ) that was an old song does anone know where one can purchase it.
Can anyone out there tell me why it is that the entire NY Subway system smells like urine? I mean, what? You ever see people actually urinating down there? And why is it everywhere? Are people pissing on the walls, the steps, the bannisters? I mean for the whole system to stink like that, you'd need people to piss on the 3rd rail for godsakes and steam the smell into the walls or something! And why Urine? Why not Feces? Please answer.....
I think it was the great 20th Century Prophet, George Carlin, who once quipped "The New York subways are bathrooms connected by trains" ;-)
[Can anyone out there tell me why it is that the entire NY Subway system smells like urine? I mean, what? You ever see people actually urinating down there? And why is it everywhere?]
Well, the problem is that _Numero Uno_ is the sort of smell that lingers for a long time. It can be a stong smell in many stations even though it's presumably a relatively infrequent occurrence for someone actually to pay his water bill on the platform or tracks.
I'll never forget when the TA cleaned up Broadway-Lafayette. The smell of urine was bad, but the get it out there were so many cholorine molecules in the air you could barely breath. That smell lasted for months.
I find that every mass transit system I have visited has its own distinctive smell. New York ( Redbird cars in particular) has a sweet almost fruity smell, the Paris Metro smells of hot rubber, The London Underground that of hot electric motors, Brussels smells of fish. Glasgow smells of beer. What do others smell of ?
Simon
Swindon UK
M-3's in Philadelphia get a semi-sweet disinfectant smell when the heaters are on.
The other smell that is always around is OZONE. The electric motors and the pick up shoes when they make small sparks tend to change the O2 to Ozone for just a bit. Same smell as a Lionel Train set running.
I remember my first subway ride with my grandparents, the trains on the L (probably R40/42) smelled like licorice. I always called them 'candy trains'.
-Hank
My roller curtains still have a subway fragrance if you get up close to them. Interestingly enough, the D sign on my IND route curtain looks brand new. It's laminated, which undoubtedly helped. The A, AA, B, and BB signs on that curtain are not laminated, while the rest of the signs are.
That licorice smell Hamk mentions in the R40/42's is probably from the flooring material used when they were built. Some of the New Flyer buses where I work smelled that way when new.
And to think I hate licorice....
Out here on the left coast, BART and LACMTA seem to have the same small that I remember on the IND in the Bronx. Old, damp, dusty.
It took BART about two years to acquire the smell, and it seemed instantaneous at LACMTA. Maybe it is the concrete dust?
One other subscriber seemed to think it may be ozone produced by the sparks in the motors. It is probably a mixture of all including human.
Does anybody have an idea what PATH smells like? The only thing I can attribute it to is lubricating oil or something. And it smells entirely different from the TA system!
Because of the world-famous notoriety of the "subway smell" it should come as no surprise to learn that a new cologne with this theme is being offered by Ralph Lauren. It is called "Le Odor of Rudy" and will be available at Macy's in time for Christmas ;-)
I have also smelled the many horrible odors of the subway system. But has anyone smelled that real bad odor next to escalator going up to the downtown 6 train platform at the Lexington Ave-N/R station.
The smelliest place in the system has to be the southbound end of the Chambers St IRT (#1-2-3-9) station. It is a noxious, vile odor, somewhat reminiscent of the combination of sour milk, spoilt fish and human waste.
As for Lexington Ave - never smelt it. Maybe there's a D.B. in there.
Wayne
"Because of the world-famous notoriety of the "subway smell" it should come as no surprise to learn that a new cologne with this theme is being offered by Ralph Lauren. It is called "Le Odor of Rudy" and will be available at Macy's in time for Christmas ;-)"
They stole my idea!!! This is just like when Calvin Klein stole Kramer's Beach idea.
While my opinion of "rudy" is quite low, you can't really blame THAT on "Hizzoner" in fact he may be the one to clean up that smell, If he does, Hilary might as well go back to Little Rock with Sick Willie and plan that library
Is it a definate that the first set of R-142's will be delivered on Saturday? If so, where in Brooklyn and what time? I would like to go there and get some footage of whatever I can.
For 25 years I have always noticed a particular heavy dusty smell on the #7 train platform at grand central. You all know what I'm talking about. Does this have to do with the tunnel under the river??? Also, the Path train stations smell this way too. It's very patrticular and I've never noticed it anywhere else.
Who knows???
I noticed this smell as well, but the all-white paint job at the GCT station on the 7 seems to have cleared this up....
-Hank
When I used to commute home on the 7 in the summers, I always appreciated that the incoming trains from Queens would push what feels like fresh, outdoor air through the tubes into that deep, hot platform area at GCT. Right before the train would come, you'd feel this rush of cool breeze and you could almost imagine you were out in some park. It's the last thing you'd expect way, way down there.
"When I used to commute home on the 7 in the summers, I always appreciated that the incoming trains from Queens would push what feels like fresh, outdoor air through the tubes into that deep, hot platform area at GCT. Right before the train would come, you'd feel this rush of cool breeze and you could almost imagine you were out in some park. It's the last thing you'd expect way, way down there."
I also remember this, and a sign above the inbound tunnel at the east end of the GCT #7 station that said "Hold Your Hat!"
I always thought that the urine smell resulted from the entire subway system being built through and around the NYC sewers. There are bound to be leaks all around and just plain lack of insulation between the two very different underground conduits. I can't imagine the smell is due only to the periodic bladder emptying going on.
I would like to know, the bus that took passengers to the airport during the JFK express days, was that bus exclusive to JFK express passengers, or a person who took the A train to Howard Beach could also use it too?
This was a TA bus, right??
And was any fare collected on it???
Thanks.
I'm 99% certain that it was the same bus that is still running now (the regular airport loop bus). So, you could be a passenger from the JFK Express or the regular trains (A, C - at that time, and H).
There is no fare collected on the bus and it is operated by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, not the TA.
The original JFK Express bus was run by the TA and was different from what was then known as the Long Term Parking bus which was run by the PA. I rode the TA bus once from the airport to the Howard Beach station and do not recall any fare being charged on the bus though once you reached Howard Beach I believe that you paid a token to enter the station and then could either board a regular A train or board the JFK Express and pay the additional fare.
When the JFK Express was discontinued the Long Term Parking bus was extended to serve the Howard Beach Station.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That is correct - the TA originally ran the bus service from Howard Beach station to the airport. For those interested, I recollect that in its later days, the service was provided by RTS buses in the 1300 series that had luggage racks installed for the service.
I also find that the JFK Express Bus had two loops;Loop A served Eastern,Northwest,Pan Am and the IAB while Loop B served United,American,British Airways and TWA.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The JFK bus fare for non-JFK Express riders was $2.00.
It was collected near the turnstyles for both inbound and outbound.
The only exception was when the Willie Bdge was shut down and they run 8-car JFK Expresses for no extra charge.During that short period,
they didn't charge the A, C, or H riders the extra 2 bucks.
Since the buses were scheduled to connect to JFK express trains, the wait for the buses were long if you rode on a regular train.
But the JFK express which were supposed to run every 20 minutes, often only came every 40 minutes... I guess that's why people turned away from the extra fare (Was $7.50 when the service was terminated)
What garage did it operate out of?
I believe the JFK bus service operated out of East New York, but I'm not 100% positive.
Yes, the JFK Express bus did operate out of ENY.
Wayne
Just like the B-15 today. But that route comes from Brooklyn. I wonder why the JFK shuttle didn't use the Jamaica depot? That's probably the closest. And after that, its Queens Village.
Can one of our Station Agent regulars tell us what the penalty is for sleeping on the job?
On my way home this evening, I noticed that the station agent at my stop was fast asleep, even though it was just 8:20 PM. I remember back about 10 years ago, having to wake up the attendant at Ocean Pkwy on the D at 2:00 AM about once a week, but 8:20 seems a little early for nap time.
snoozing on the job is very serious and can lead to good bye job.
However, before I could say for sure I'd need more info- could the person have narcolepsy, family emergency leading to no sleep for several days.
**disclaimer- this is not an official post***
Sleeping on the job is unacceptable in any field of work, and can indeed lead to termination.
>>Sleeping on the job is unacceptable in any field of work
Except if your in a sleep study?
Actually, some recent studies have been done and it's now being deemed acceptable in some fields, for employees in some industries, who hold "safety sensative jobs", to be permitted to take a 20-30 minute 'cat-nap'. Personally, I'd feel a lot better knowing that the captain of my late night flight from DC to Islip was able to get some sleep before the flight instead of having to hold his eyes open with toothpicks. Same goes for a train operator or a car inspector or a signal maintainer, working at night. If they have their little cat-nap, the work they do will be better and the public will be safer in the long run. Having said that, I still will not permit any employee to sleep on the job until the official policy is changed.
[Actually, some recent studies have been done and it's now being deemed acceptable in some fields, for employees in some industries, who hold "safety sensative jobs", to be permitted to take a 20-30 minute 'cat-nap'. Personally, I'd feel a lot better knowing that the captain of my late night flight from DC to Islip was able to get some sleep before the flight instead of having to hold his eyes open with toothpicks.]
Today's Wall Street Journal has an interesting story along these lines. A Delta Air Lines flight from Atlanta to Tokyo via Portland had to be cut short at Portland because of a sleep issue. The 14-hour flight had a spare crew, who were supposed to sleep for the first part of the trip and then relieve the others. But the sleeping berths were so small and noisy (they're nicknamed "coffins") that the crew members couldn't sleep. They were worried about what would happen near the end of the flight, with everyone exhausted, so they called it off in Portland. Now the crew members are facing possible disciplinary action.
If the plane is going to land in Portland anyway, why doesn't the relief crew board there (and also let the other crew head for a hotel rather than an onboard bunk)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I can recall correctly (I read the article on the train this morning but no longer have the WSJ handy), the plane had left Portland when the crew realized they were too tired, and returned to the airport.
Union Pacific now allows either the conductor or engineer to snooze for a limited amount of time _while the train is stopped_ and the other is awake. Seems like a good idea, though it's really just acknowledging what's always happened.
Judging from the responses to my previous post, I feel I need to rephrase my previous statement. Let's put it this way: sleeping on the job is not tolerated where I work. It constitutes a major rule violation, and can result in disciplinary action up to and including termination.
Maybe the guy never got relieved after 8 hours of work and was stuck for a double shift.
Even if they started into a triple they could not sleep in the booth!
(You cant work a triple- they must get someone or they'll give you paid time off if you stay past a certain number of hours)
Does anyone have actually videos of the N.y subways taken from the early 80s with graffiti on the cars and also with say the R 10,12,14,15,21-22 cars. I have never seen any videos with this just movies. I would like this because thecars were not rebuilt and you can here the sounds the R- types originally made. If anyone has any info on where I can obtain videos on this that I can purchase especially home videos can you post here or e-mail me. Thanks
Check out Style Wars and Stations of the Elevated. Both are listed in the Bibliography.
-Dave
I'd like to expand the dialogue from a few threads back discussing Amtrak's Northeast electrics usage: I read, I think in Rail News, that a private company had offered to take over operating the "Keystone" Philly / Harrisburg route but was rebuffed by Amtrak. It seemed odd considering 3 years ago Amtrak was ready to scrap the route altogether until Gov. Ridge and the PA legislature ponied up the cash to keep it alive. Ridership has increased on the line since then (myself among those patronizing the service), but it's still not as popular as in, say, the early eighties. Does anyone think Amtrak perhaps wanted to keep the line to itself to accomodate the newly burgeoning mail / express business between NYC and Pittsburgh / Chicago. (The do own the line between Harrisburg and Philly.) Any comments would be appreciated.
Regards,
PF
They could have kept the tracks and such and sold the operating rights and equipment like the LIRR did to NY&A. Ran their own long distance trains with the mail on it and let some other firm do the local stuff.
Just a guess...
So why not, eh? The only difference is that the LIRR is a state agency, no? Or "quasi-public." I believe Pennsylvania's SEPTA is mandated by law to stay within certain counties, the westernmost being Lancaster county (Harrisburg is in the next county, Dauphin).
Moreover, I think (though I'm no authority) that Amtrak's charter has provisions for a sort of "first refusal" regarding any attempt to establish competing passenger rail operations, ensuring a monopoly on long distance passenger train service. Commuter operations are either excepted or Amtrak considers them non-competing. I guess the Harrisburg - Philadelphia line must be considered "long-distance."
Even if a private company was intrested in taking over operations, they would have to go through Amtrak. My original comment was about their unwillingness to relinquish a route they deemed undesirable. Even though I am an Amtrak supporter, I would like to see some competition given a chance to improve rail service overall.
I agree that some competition would be good. At the time this proposal was floated, there was skepticism voiced by observers such as DVARP about the group proposing to provide the service - whether they could actually get trains running. A passenger RR is no joke to organize! Also note that the state showed no interest in this group, IIRC.
Another thing: amtrak operates commuter services in several places (eg Boston, VA, LA, others?). They get these contracts through some sort of process which is at least theoretically competitive. So they seem to be able to run a competitive operation.
I *believe* amtrak lost its monopoly provision for long distance passenger rail operation in recent legislation. (Commuter RRs were always exempt from this). In any case, amtrak owns Hbg-Philly so they call the shots there. But the state could put up quite a stink if they were being obstructive.
David, thanks for your response. I was unaware of the name of the group we're discussing, only that a proposal was made to assume the HBG-PHL route. Can you suggest any other sources or websites offering inciteful (but not purely promotional) info about northeast rail issues? (I know this site has links too.) I read the trades, but they are nationwide and tend not to get too specific about the northeast.
Thanks,
PF
The best newsletter for insightful news is DVARP - www.dvarp.org
Unfortunately, they have started delaying the posting of their excellent newsletters to encourage us to join. I prefer to read them online anyways - I wish they had an online subscription. However, I'd say the back issues are worth reading!!!
Other than that, you can get news from www.railpace.com and www.trains.com. If you would like discussion groups, nyc.transportation and phl.transit have been worth reading lately. Course, you'll have a lot of very annoying flame wars to churn through, but after a while you learn to spot the interesting threads and stick to those. www.dejanews.com will let you read either of those newsgroups.
Anyone else have suggestions?
[It seemed odd considering 3 years ago Amtrak was ready to scrap the route altogether until Gov. Ridge and the PA legislature ponied up the cash to keep it alive.]
This was a political move to get support from the State of Pennsylvania for the service, and it worked.
I remember in years past there was a early morning train that originated in Harrisburg, making stops to Paoli, then Ardmore, before negotiating the "NY & Pittsburgh Subway" under the ZOO interlocking. It then made stops at North Philadelphia (why, I can't determine) and Trenton before arriving at Newark, NJ and Penn Station, NY. The train’s consist for a time was 1st generation Metroliner equipment that was sidelined from the NE Corridor. The train had an afternoon counterpart leaving NY-Penn a little after 5 PM, if I remember correctly.
Both trains were well-patronized and offered snack bar service. I used the service several times between Paoli and NY-Penn.
I don't know when it occurred, but those trains no longer operate straight through. All trains, it is my understanding operate via Philadelphia - 30th Street, thereby adding another 25 - 30 minutes to the schedule. Does Amtrak really want PA (other than Phila-30th St.)to NYC passengers? Actions speak louder than words!
Jim K.
Chicago
Thanks for the rememberance. Though I don't remember ever riding that particular schedule, I have uncles and other relatives, a few of them retired RR employees, who probably remember it too. It's nice for us younger railfans to hear first-hand accountings of the "glory days." When I'm not making the occasional (sometimes successful) attempt to find a fellow railfan in the conducor, I often find myself imagining I'm on the Broadway Limited as I travel between NYC and Harrisburg -- I mean the one with the red carpet and movie stars. Then, as we pull into Harrisburg station, I am snapped back to reality as soon as I look around and realize I'm the only one detraining . . .
[I hope there's a little room for sentiment on this website:)]
[When I'm not making the occasional (sometimes successful) attempt to find a fellow railfan in the conducor, I often find myself imagining I'm on the Broadway Limited as I travel between NYC and Harrisburg -- I mean the one with the red carpet and movie stars.]
Sorry Peter, the reality is that you couldn't buy a ticket from NY-Penn to Harrisburg on the PRR "Broadway Limited", as the train was for through passengers only.
I do know what you mean though.
Just before Amtrak pulled their version of the Broadway, I rode it from Philadelphia - 30th Street Station (something you also couldn't do when it was the PRR Broadway as it used the NY & Pittsburgh Subway)to Chicago, Union Station. I went all out and purchased a Bedroom space which cost about $200. Yes, I mixed a few Manhattan's (the drink) that evening and thought about what the glory days would have been like. That trip was the last week in August of 1995, and before I relocated from Philadelphia area to Chicago.
I'm glad I spent the extra money for my last ride on the "Broadway Limited".
Jim K.
Chicago
(Last ride on the Broadway Limited). I rode one of the last non-tourist priced cross Canada trains back in 1990, as part of a big vacation to the Canadian Rockies and Vancouver. The "Canadian" is there whole national identity up there, and its gone. At the same time, Meech Lake was going on and it looked like the country might break up (that problem goes on and on and on).
Born too late or, perhaps, too soon.
Jim,
Thanks very much for the response.
Perhaps you can understand why I assumed the "through passenger" restriction, which today exists on the "Three Rivers," the current incarnation of the Broadway Limited . . .
[which looks much like a long, grey freight train due to mail / express cargo; fine, if it keeps it running]
was a 1990's Amtrak development. I didn't start riding regularly until about 1992.
Incidentally, I plan to visit family in Harrisburg this weekend and will be riding a Keystone train! I wonder if this train's conductor will have any insights . . . :)
Peter F.
NYC
I am writing a paper on the affects of the Metro Card on ridership and commuter congestion in NYC. I am looking for articles, papers and websites that give information about increased ridership due to the Metro Card. If anyone can help direct me to some informative sites, I would appreciate it. Thank you.
I suggest you search this site by keyword ... you should find lots of input for your article. And if you want to relate how NYC, Chicago, Wash D.C., Atlanta & others are doing the same either before or after NYC ... that info is there too.
To get you started: Current mfg of turnstiles & fareboxes is Cubic, former was GFI.
Mr t__:^)
You might also try the NYC newspapers online editions where you can probably also do a search.
One of our friends posted that the May issue of Trains had a article on the New York & Atl RR ... it does & in my humble opinion it is a great one. It's written like a story about a short line, i.e. the writer rides a freight that delivering 3 gas tanks from Fresh Pond to Bridgehampton.
Also there's a nice article about the Acela service incl. a couple shots of the new HHL "Extreme Machine".
And a pull out that list many of our favorite places to ride trains, e.g. Brooklyn; New Haven; Kingston; Kennebunkport; Chicago; Philly; Baltimore; Warehouse Point (East Windsor) and Essex Ct (sorry rapid transit fans I had to sneak in this Steam train line that's just down the road a piece from my summer home up that-a-way :-)
Mr t__:^)
[One of our friends posted that the May issue of Trains had a article on the New York & Atl RR ... it does & in my humble opinion it is a great one. It's written like a story about a short line, i.e. the writer rides a freight that delivering 3 gas tanks from Fresh Pond to Bridgehampton.]
One thing I didn't like is the fact that the issue is sold sealed in a plastic covering, like some sleazy porno magazine ...
But of course ... it's Trains ... real railfans read Railfan & Railroad:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read both. I've never bought a copy of Trains that came in a plastic bag. Subscribers get it that way, though. R&R comes in a paper cover, but is usually sold open, just like Trains. Perhaps there was something else stuffed in with the magazine?
-Hank
Perhaps. I'll have to check with my son - he picks up Trains at the Hobby Shop from time to time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you also subscribe to model railroader you get Trains and MR in the same plastic bag, cutting down on postage...
-Dave
I went to both Hudson New's at Penn, LIRR and Amtrak level, even in the section marked Rail Road there was no RR mags. Anyone know where in NYC I can easily pick up a copy of May's TRAINS?? Local news stands by me (Kings Hwy) zippo on RR Mags (without porno that is)
(Intrested in NY&A)... Thanks
Try Borders at WTC. I've seen it there. The big B&N branches should have it too.
-Dave
actually Dave,B&N is the WORST place to try to find RR mags...
Hudson News in the Met Life Bldg, north of GCT, Borders in the World Trade Center, the large magazine stores on 14th St btw 5th & 6th Aves, and the one on 8th Ave btw 58-59 Sts. This last one has both English railroad mags too.
How about the Red Caboose ... mid-town ?
I got mine at Train Land in Lynbrook LI, they had a few left.
Coliseum Books on 57th St and Bway usually has a few copies.
Thanks, ALex, I'll try there when I get my new monthly card at the Metrocard vending machine at the Circle. No luck B&N BTW, haven't been down to the WTC in a long time....
There are a couple large magazine stores in the LIRR part of Penn Station that have copies.
David,
Would it be against the rules to post the 800 numbers for subscriptions to these mags? I, too, have to be really lucky to find copies at B&N.
PF
Trains and MR are both at www.kalmbach.com; I don't know about the others, but go ahead and post them.
-Dave
Also....RAILPACE.....
Did you ever read The New Electric Railway Journal? That was by far the best transit mag. around. They have my money, but they haven't
published an issue for almost a year. I miss it!
Chuck Greene
I believe the publisher died recently...
-Hank
You can read the article here, if you'd like:
New York & Atlantic, by Joe Greenstein. A shortline freight railroad goes to work amid the frenzy of commuter trains on Long Island.
Mike
Do NY subway cabs (especially redbirds) have any of the following items in them?
1. Window defrosters
2. Heat / AC
3. First aid kit
Also, are TO's allowed to listen to music (tapes or CD's) while on duty?
Just curious,
Bill
#1NO
#2NO
#3NO
And the final question, absolutely NOT.
With the lives of thousands of passengers in our hands, Motormen and Conductors mst pay strict attention to our duties.
There are some cars equipped with fire extiguisheres though.
1) NYCT cars don't have defrosters or heated wind sheilds
2) Cars that were delivered without HVAC and were retro-fitted, do not have AC ducts in the cabs but cars that were deliviered with AC, do have AC ducts into the cabs.
3)No first aid kits. (Not a bad idea though). The problem is that some train operator or conductor would try to do a good deed and give first aid. Unfortuately, the lawyers would see a new growth industry there.
There are several rules that specifically and implicitly prohibit either member of the crew from listening to music in the cab. Even the slightest distraction while operating a train can lead to tragic consequences.
Steve,
Am I incorrect in thinking that the R-32, originally non-AC R-38, and originally non-AC R-40 cars were given HVAC vents in the cabs when retrofitted during overhaul?
David
What ever happened with that idea of having a Nurse at a busy station. She is supposed to respond to a train that has a sick passanger to see if the pax could be removed from the train allowing service to be restored?
I thought they were gonna put a nurse in the tower at 34th Street 6th Ave or Grand Central?
Normaly if there is a sick passanager on the train the train holds at the station until EMS (now Fire Department) shows up. Can backup the whole line...Been there...
The idea of the nurses on the platforms was discussed at length on the NYC*EMS boards. In reality, the TA would probably do better hiring an EMT over the nurse. EMTs are trained to move patient and do rapid assesments - most nurses aren't.
Chip
I remember 9 years ago on the SIRT the motorman listening to a radio. I thought it was strange-- like being on some small town or private operation. (He also had no uniform)
Well, it is.
-Hank
I don't know if there is such a thing as a uniform for a motorman. There was one on the Canarsie once who looked as if he'd come right off the street and parked himself in the cab of an R-7/9.
Conductors, of course, do wear a uniform.
For a while there was a motorman's uniform introduced. It was like a traditional engineer's suit, with thinly striped overalls and railroad cap. This, I believe, was around the same time I saw the SIRT motorman. So it did look strange seeing this area unaffected by the new rule.
I know I don't see those uniforms anymore, but I haven't really been paying attention to what the motormen wear. Don't they all have a dark blue jacket (made of shiny material), at least?
Here in Chicago, the CTA train operators have always worn uniforms, even before OPTO required them to leave the cab to open the doors at center-platform stations. However, the engineers of Metra trains don't wear uniforms. I would imagine that the difference is that passengers can see an L train operator, so he or she has to look professional, but you can't see the engineer of a Metra train.
Too bad NYCT cars don't have defrosters. Back in January when we had freezing rain for about 24 hours, all elevated trains had severe icing problems on the windshield. The motormans windshield is a double pane of glass, so the outer layer froze up.
BTW: The windshield is actually caled a "Vision Glass". And yes, for the additional cost, it's not unreasonable for that additional measure of safety. The LIRR and Metro North have heated vision glass (required). On the other hand, the R-46 vision glass is specially treated and will stop a cinder block at 30 MPH.
What about cell phones while on duty?
I say bring back the subway map with the individual route maps on the back. I miss those maps.
Is there a reason why the Redbirds are served by the 2,4,5 I think, plus the 7 train. Yet at least on the IRT you never see them running on the 1/9 or 3 trains?
The reason there not on the No.3 Line is because No.3 has 9 Cars other wise the No.3 Would have to run 8 car trains. The No.1/9 is a suppose to be the showcase line of the IRT. The No.1 has lots of fuzzy Business people who ride the Line on Rush Hours. The tourist ride the Line mostly from 66 Street to South Ferry. So That could maybe be the reason. Some supervisers say the No.1 is a showcase line because its under Broadway half the time. Well I'm glad they think that because I don't. My vote for the IRT showcase line is the No.7 Line.
Ofcause everyone has there own Ideas so feel free to Comment.
Why does the 3 Train run with 9 cars, don't trains usually run 11 cars?
Trains Normaly run 10 Car the No.7 Line only runs 11 cars
Is there a reason why then the 3 train has 9 cars and the 7 has 11?
The limitation on number of cars on the is yard track length.
The line platforms can accomodate 11 car trains (and there is enough equipment available) so 11 car trains are run.
I was just reading some posts here via lynx, and they appear like
"The limitation on number of cars on the is yard track length"
and "The line platforms can accomodate 11 car trains" The more bullets the less sense the posts make. Those of you using bullets should probably insert an alt tag to indicate what you mean for those who aren't surfing with graphics turned off. For instance img alt="7" src="(the 7 bullet)"
-dave
Even an 11-car IRT train is shorter than an 10-car IND/BMT train. (561' vs 660')
-Hank
Read back the past couple days posts, this is described in detail. Suffice it to say that the #7 has 11 cars because it needs them and all stations can handle them; the #3 has 9 cars because the Lenox Yard can't handle trains that are longer.
How about its crosstown cousin, ,? I like the , because it is like a melting pot on wheels.....
Can we please stop with the bullets already? Just because we know how to do something does not mean we should. Our wonderful Webmaster has dropped some gentle hints, but they were promptly ignored. I know how to use them, but I don't.
Thanks for the rant.
But I like using the bullets. Im away at school and I like to reminisce sometimes. There is nothing wrong with bullets.
Except that some people don't have very fast connections, and those things take extra time to load. Not to mention those people who don't surf with graphics on, and those people still in the 'old days' using text-only browsers. Ah, Lynx. That was a day or 3. And then there are those people who use text browsers by necessity.
-Hank
So what type of cars did the have back in the day? I know it had R12/14 cars, but didn't it also have R21/22 cars as well?(During the 70's and 80's)
The #3 shared cars with the # 1 line from the early 1960's, until the R62A's came aboard. From 1/66 on: that means: R12, R14, R15, R21, R22, a few R29's(8600-8687) & a few R36's from the #6, in the very late 1960's (9522-9557) & a few W.F. R36's. Oh boy, a little of everything. In the 60's the cars were never washed. They all looked black.
durring the 70's and 80's, the 3 didn't go to lenox term.; the 2 did.
The 2 went to 148th Street in the '70s and '80s? When did this happen? I've lived my entire life (1978- ) near White Plains Road and it has always been served by the 2 train. I sometimes see #3 trains operate there, but never in revenue service. Was it before 1978, maybe?
The 3 train has never run to the Bronx. Not officially anyway, AFAIK. Before the current color code was adopted, IRT bulkhead route roller curtains said 2/7th Ave.-Bronx, and 3/7th Ave.-Lenox. Now, the 2 and 3 did swap Brooklyn terminals a few years back.
I stand corrected - I must have gotten it mixed up with the 2/3 terminal switch at the other end of the line, in Brooklyn. Sorry for the misinformation!
Every map I have has the 3 going to 145 or 148. My maps go back to the late 60s.
-Hank
Couldn't 10-car Redbird trains run on the 3 if they're based out of the Livonia Av yard. Livonia stored cars for the 2, 3, 4, and 5 trains in the past. Cars on the 2, 4, and 5 are 10 cars long. If some of the 3's R-62As have to go to the 7, the TA might want to consider this.
Well if the don't use the back end of Lenox Yard the No.3 could probably run 10 Car train. When there are GO'S when the No.1 or No.2 had to use Lenox Yard they stayed on the Layup trains closer to the 148 Street Platform. But would have to use more of Levonia Yard
Livonia Yard still store Redbirds for the ,, and especially trains at this moment. These trains are used for special rush hour runs.
Then there's no reason there can't be a few 10-car sets of Redbirds on the 3. Because I think the R-62As that are headed for the 7 should come from the 6 (like I've heard) and the 3. I think the 1 should keep its R-62As because during rush hours, you have both 1 and 9 trains. If Redbirds go to Van Courtlandt, it would be hard to tell if the train is a 1 or a 9 from a distance. And I think the end roll signs on the Redbirds only go up to 7 any way.
By the way, does anybody know if there's a diamond 7 on the R-62A roll signs? If not the 7 express will have to be renamed the 11.
Believe it or not some Redbirds have a No.9 side signs. I seen them on the R 33'S Mainline. They are under the No.1 sign.
Is the 1993 calendar particularly hard to find? I have not been able to locate one to complete a set.
Hey folks ...
I have an HO scale GHB brass LIRR M1/M2 unit 2-car set up for auction ...
if anyone is interested the auction is at:
http://auctions.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/auction-glance/Y04X5088509X9689239/058-9483947-2163011
Gordon
Hey folks ...
I have an HO scale WP Car Co. brass NYCTA IND R10 painted, unpowered car up for auction ...
if anyone is interested the auction is at:
http://auctions.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/auction-glance/Y04X3938630X4048611
Gordon
About a year ago I was stopped by an undercover cop at the 23rd St #6 station. After I passed through the turnstile using my Meterocard he flashed his badge and asked me if I had just used a student pass -I didn't. He took my card and went to the tokenbooth and checked to see if it was a real Metrocard and not a student Metrocard, even though it was clearly a real Metrocard. He found out that it was a real one and apologized for my inconvenience. My question to anyone is - what would make the cop think I was using a student pass? Does a certain light turn on next to the turnstile? Also even if it is clearly a Metrocard Gold card why did he have check it anyway?
Related item: The New York Post this AM ran a small article about how extensively MC users are getting hassled, i.e. mulit swipes to get in, lock out for 18 min because they went to another turnstile, double billed. You may recall it happened to me last Wed. at Bowling Green, apparently one of the turnstiles was acting up & I got locked out. The Station Agent came out of the booth & used the R/W head cleaner on the unit, but it still cost me an extra fare. ALSO I have a colleague who is useing my Yankee Weekly Unlimited card (I only charged him $15 for this $17 card) he's had two problems in three days. He's a regular token user, wonder why ????
P.S. I've seen some MCs that I have run through a reader give a funny reply, ONE of them did say it was a Student Card, it wasn't.
Mr t__:^)
I'm reading the posting regarding problems with Metrocards.
I really don't want to jinx myself, however, I've been using CTA Farecards since they were introduced two years ago. CTA uses the same technology and equipment as NYC (Cubic). I have NOT experienced any problems. I've not really seen many problems that other people are having. So, I'm at a loss as to why NYC is having problems and Chicago doesn't seem to.
I use either a 7-day or 30-day pass when I know I'm going to be riding each of the days. When I don't have a valid pass, I rely on a regular Farecard that I carry in my wallet right behind the pass. The only problem I've had is on the bus. Sometimes, if I ride a bus a short distance and get off and try to re-board a bus on the same route the reader will "spit out" the card. However, the bus driver just checks the back of the pass for validation and I'm off.
I've never experienced a problem while attempting to board at a RT station. Remember that I'm a daily user of the CTA, that is 24x7! I do get around the system.
Another thing to consider, the agents on CTA (oh, I mean Customer Service Reps), are out of their booths now – they no longer handle any cash. They are in the vicinity of turnstiles and vending machines to help out those who are experiencing any difficulty. That may be why Chicago has had a better experience (and learning curve) with Cubic equipment.
On a side note, I have a friend who ALWAYS has problems with things. He has been able to buy, use and re-charge the Farecard. If Joe can do it without problems, anyone should be able to.
Jim K.
Chicago
Maybe Chicago has better production quality on its cards, or perhaps a better batch of turnstiles. I've had problems with the Metrocard too. My only experience is with the per-ride and the FunPass; both have been aggravating, the FunPass more so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the report from Chicago. Now if only the suits were reading this !
Correct me if I'm wrong but I can think of three differences:
1. Chicago dips vs. swipes the card, but then, at least at this depot, we are seeing problems with the dip units on the farebox, i.e. TPU to be technical about it.
2. Volume ... I'll let Larry or someone else quote the exact numbers.
3. D'em bums, you know the crowd that trys to gum up the turnstile to get a free ride. I'll let our Station Agent friends relate a couple of examples of this.
P.S. I went to a meeting recently where a TA Dir. made a statement of how accurate & generally spectacular the Cubic box/turnstiles are ... he was posturing in front of DOT suits.
P.P.S. I like the article in this AMs Post that says "... the only time we get action from the MTA is when we do our own surveys"
I guess they get in a lot of trouble if they don't follow the party line. But then I work for a private company :-)
Mr t__:^)
Thank you Thurston for the response. As I can tell from the last line of your posting I wasn't the only on with a Metrocard (regular-fare) reading as if it were a student pass. When the Metrocard was first coming out I was using it and having the same swiping problems people are having now. But what I didin't like was that there would always be that person behind me getting upset. Upset at me for taking too long to go through the turnstile. Like it was my fault that these machines don't work right.
A couple of tips when having problems with MCs & "swipe again":
- Don't go to another turnstile, try again
- Wait for the "swipe again" message to go away (a few seconds)
- Wipe the magnetic portion of the MC on you shirt (dirt/static)
- If you see a speck of dirt, flick it off
- If you see a SMALL wrinkle try to straighten it, BUT you'll probally have to get a new card & if it's "unlimited" mail it in.
- Still a problem after several trys, turn the card upside down & run it back & forth thru the reader real fast (to clean it/disloge dirt), then try again.
- Bring the card to the station agent. They may be aware of THAT turnstile is acting up & let you thru the gate or they may be able to see something on their screen ... like your card is expired, sorry I was using the wrong card :-(
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA, TA or DOT
Mr t__:^)
to add to Thurston's excellent advice:
if the card does not work bring it to the booth.Let us check it. Sometimes the card is defective and we can transfer the money to a new card.
That's why I use a FunPass every time I travel. Hudson News in Penn Sta sells em. I never have any problems finding one or using one.
Wayne
Yes there is a special light that determines that if it is a student pass and also on employees pass. It is a white rectangle light that is on top of the fare meter (when the booth is closed it has a red signal. It can be seen on both sides of the token booth and only last for a second. I can't figure out how it would turn on with an unlimited card or Metrocard Gold,because it does not comes on. I have realized that there was a light flash since i saw my father put his employees pass in and when I put my student pass a yr ago.
Thank you Bently for the response. Next time I'm waiting for a train where the turnsile is on the platform I will observe these lights for different people. Another thing I remembered was that the same cop had asked someone else if he was using a student pass. I have to say the one thing that upset me was even though I showed my Metrocard Gold he checked it anyway. I thinjk just wanted to see if the machine was acting up.
That explains why they grabbed a Cubic employee who commutes one day when she was with colleagues. At first she thought this guy was some kind of pervert or homeless person ... obviously he wasn't in uniform.
I will tell you that we have experienced adults using their kids MCs to & from work. There are a number of cases where the kid is driven to school so the MC is available. The problem is that some adult/older kids are issued them so it's a hard thing for the bus driver to police.
Mr t__:^)
Any reduced fare metrocard gets a light on both sides of the turnstile. Employee pass is a reduced fare (way reduced) metrocard >G<.
I think it is a different light for the senior card and the student card though. But there are only two color lights?? (I think).. This is from observation
here are the colors for the lights:
RED--Senior, disbaled Reduced Fare
YELLOW-- Student pass
GREEN--Employee (and police who also ride free)
Does anyone know why the downtown #6 train wasn't running for awhile just after 12 o'clock noon today. The announcement was that there had been a "customer injury" earlier. Anyone know what really happened. I saw the 'Police Line Do Not Cross' tape at the southbound side of the 42-Grand Central Station (4/5/6).
Has anyone else noticed that on the 1/9 the amount of scratchitti on the windows and roller signs in the R-62's has gotten ridiculous. It is almost to the point where you can't even look out of the windows. Has the MTA given up, and lengthened the interval between window replacement...or have the vandals stepped up their effort?
I ride the A train just as frequently, and although there is some, not nearly as much as the 1/9.
Michael
I laugh when I hear the TA make recent pronouncements about how they have forever solved the graffiti problem that plagued the system decades ago. Well, while I'll admit that the scratchiti is not as ugly as the graffiti was, the spread of scratchiti on the subways, and the increase of it now on the bus fleet, is a sure sign that the vandals have, once again, outsmarted the TA. I'll bet the scratchiti vandals can't wait for all those new subway cars to start coming in. Isn't someone at the TA trying to eliminate the scratchiti problem? Maybe the future arrival of the new subway cars will encourage some action. The exit of graffiti came largely at the time the R-62's started arriving and the TA did take steps to make sure the new cars didn't get plastered with paint.
I was just playing the very good CD "SubPlay" last night. Besides the music of the subway musicians, it had some short quips from "the Subterrenean Comedian". He is one of the many wandering pandhandlers, but is quite funny and original.
Does anyone know if he is still doing his schtick? If so, what lines and when are the best times to catch him in action?
Thanks, Doug aka BMTman
I don't know if we're talking about the same guy (I would classify him as annoying, loud and far from funny -- but to each his own), but there is a guy who is on the downtown platform at 53rd and 5th (at the Madison end of the station) every day during rush hour.
I'd be more than happy if you can convince him to become a part of your daily commute rather than mine.
I remember a question from the early, early days of SUBTALK,but have forgotten the answers....How far is it possible to travel south from Boston solely by either mass transit (when possible) or other public transportation, without resorting to AMTRAK? Im including all publicly owned commuter RR's etc..... The farthest I can get is somewhere in Delaware(??) What wouldbe the fastest way..and the most complicated??
[I remember a question from the early, early days of SUBTALK,but have forgotten the answers....How far is it possible to travel south from Boston solely by either mass transit (when possible) or other public transportation, without resorting to AMTRAK? Im including all publicly owned commuter RR's etc..... The farthest I can get is somewhere in
Delaware(??) What wouldbe the fastest way..and the most complicated??]
With two gaps, you can travel from Boston (actually, starting even farther north in Rockport I believe) all the way to Fredricksburg, Virginia using commuter rail:
(1)Boston (or Rockport) to Providence via MBTA
(2)Gap between Providence and New London
(3)Shore Line East from New London to New Haven
(4)Metro North from New Haven to Grand Central Terminal, NY
(5)Walk or subway from GCT to Penn Station
(6)New Jersey Transit from Penn Station to Trenton
(7)SEPTA from Trenton to Wilmington via Philadelphia (might go as far as Newark, DE)
(8)Gap from Wilmington (or Newark) to Perrysville, MD
(9)MARC from Perrysville to Washington
(1)VRE from Washington to Fredricksburg
Just one note: if you started on the MBTA from Rockport (or Newburyport, or Haverhill, or Fitchburg ... I don't know which of these is furthest north), you'd have to walk or take the subway between Boston North Station and Boston South Station to get on the MBTA train to Providence.
Right you are, David! Another reason to institute the "North-South Rail Link" between North and South Stations, that would allow through service from the Northeast Corridor to locations north of Boston. It's still in "thinking" stage, which is even before the "funding" stage, and well before a "design" stage. The story I hear is that nothing will happen until after the Big Dig is completed in 2004 (or later...)
"The Big Dig" - to what do you refer? (Sorry if I'm missing something that should be obvious.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Former Speaker of the House Tip O'Neil had a big gift for his native state. The whole country is paying $10 billion plus to put an entire highway in Downtown Boston in a tunnel. Over and above Massachusetts regular transport allotment.
Given the relative size of the Boston and NY Metro Areas, that the equivalent of spending $50 billion in the New York Area. The whole Northeast usually gets clobbered in the amount of taxes it pays to the federal government, relative to the amount it gets out. But the Big Dig has been such a big hole that the Bay State has actually come out ahead the for the past decade or so.
Hey, Al Gore, Mr. Stop Suburban Sprawl and Global Warming, what about the 2nd Avenue Subway?
Good news Larry! It was reported just yesterday that the final bill will be only$8 billion. What a mess this city is in with all the construction. I'd much prefer they took half that amount and instead put in the North-South Rail Link, and not only bolster commuter rail service on the hub/spoke network now utilized, but also light rail service in the median of our Route 128 "beltway." This city needs to get people out of their cars, not make it easier for them to stay in them!
In other words, have the people pahk their cahs once and for all.
(Would have been better off spending half the money on transit).
Please send a letter to those idiots who want to spend $10 billion (probably low) to put the Gowanus Expressway underground instead of doing nothing about the Manhattan Bridge subway problem, the connection to the airports, etc. Sure its nice to have a highway underground. But the money!
Thanks for the info.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The official name is Central Artery/Tunnel. Much info is available at www.bigdig.com
The Big Dig is the placing underground of the freeways and transit in Boston called the Central Artery project. Parsons Brinckerhoff is the consultant on this monster project.
FYI, the 'Parsons' in Parsons-Brinkerhoff is William Barclay Parsons, of IRT construction fame. I think they're also the 'in-charge' people on the Manhattan Bridge. They also have a link to this site.
-Hank
But the North-South Rail Link is supposed to be a spur of the Red Line. This is what I was told on my last trip to Boston (November 7, 1998) where there was an exibit on the Big Dig across the street from the Aquarium. I guess the man was a representative from Massport or whoever is sponsoring the project and he said the rail link would be part of the subway, unlike Philadelphia's Commuter Tunnel Project which made the separate Reading and Penn commuter systems into one system (which is what I thought the rail link would be). The tunnel representative told me that the separate North and South Station commuter systems will remain two separate systems but would be connected by the new spur, if it happens. So much for through train service between New York and Portland, ME which could happen with a railroad link between North and South Stations. Wish somebody in the railroad business thought of this early on! Maybe Maine would still have passenger trains if they did.
By the way, Shore Line East does not run on weekends or major holidays. Neither do MARC or VRE. So you'll only be able to travel between New York and Wilmington, DE by train without ever having to get on Amtrak or leaving the NE Corridor (which happens if you take Metro-North from New Haven).
Not sure what the guy at the Big Dig exhibit was talking about.
See the official MBTA blurb at http://www.mbta.com/info/projects/raillink/body/, and an unofficial site compiling some of the rail link info (with maps) at http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~ychang/transportation/raillink.html.
Wow! Thanks for the information. I was definitely surprised at what I saw. So it is going to be a railroad link after all. Now the NE Corridor can be a true NE Corridor. I'm glad to hear that this link is being considered, because now we can have service from Portland to New York, Philadelphia, and even Baltimore and Washington instead of just to Boston. The T would be able to run electric commuter trains cost-effecitvely, and have a true regional rail service. GE would have a potential customer in the T for its new dual mode diesel/catenary Genesis engine (see the Delaware Valley Assoc. of Rail Passengers website at dvarp.org for more info). Maine and New Hampshire would get even more tourists (and potential permanent residents). Everybody wins. An excellent idea! Wish New York could do something like this.
While David Chui is exactly right in his post (that it is in fact to be part of the NE Corridor and not part of the Red Line), there is currently NO MONEY for other than what you saw on David's links... a plan. The North-South Rail Link is in no way a fore-gone conclusion; it needs substantial political support both in the state and Federal governments.
About the only good news is that while excavating the Big Dig for depression of the Central Artery in that corridor, room is being left for the Rail Link tunnels. They haven't gone as far as to put in them in, rather, they haven't done anything that would prohibit building the tunnels.
That's right. I didn't mean to imply that any of this will happen, only that someone has an idea of how it could happen. The North/South Rail Link plan in Boston is probably further along than the corresponding NYC plan (to link Penn Station and Grand Central so all trains could run through both stations), but there is also such a plan in NY. Not sure who wrote it or where to look for it though...
Well, at least they have the right idea on how to connect North and South Stations, even though it's just a plan right now. I knew there were plans to link Penn and Grand Central, but I thought they had been shelved. I'm glad to hear it's still being talked about.
Even if we never see Penn and Grand Central connected, the least they could do is connect NJT and Metro-North by running a commuter line (I think this has been mentioned before) from Connecticut and Westchester over the NE Corridor into Penn and continue it into New Jersey and add new stations in the Bronx and Queens. You would even get an alternative to ridiculously long waits at the Triboro Bridge.
Getting back to the original post, you would then be able to ride between New Haven, CT and Wilmington, DE without ever having to use Amtrak or leave the NE Corridor.
[Just one note: if you started on the MBTA from Rockport (or Newburyport, or Haverhill, or Fitchburg ... I don't know which of these is furthest north), you'd have to walk or take the subway between Boston North Station and Boston South Station to get on the MBTA train to Providence.]
I wouldn't consider that to break the continuous-transit link. After all, a similar subway or walking transfer would be required in NYC, between Grand Central Terminal and Penn Station. Now, the Providence-New London and Wilmington/Newark-Perrysville gaps are another matter. They make the continuous-transit journey a matter of theory rather than reality. Maybe someday ...
That dependes on a few factors but I know for a fact that you could go very far if you are willing to do some walking between various modes of municipal transprotation. I would bet you could get beyond Richmond Va.
A few years back, I made it from Brooklyn, NY to Washington DC. for about $11 using only my feet (I walked most of it) and mass transit (Subway, SEPTA, City Bus Ect.) It took me 4 days and although it was not my intention, I expect that I could have used basic municipal transportation the whole way; though some sections are definatly stickier than others. (I assumed that I could walk across the Susquehana River but when I got to the bridge I discovered that it had no pedestrian walkway.) A state trooper gave me a ride across. (Roughly 3 miles)
The problem is interfacing. Finding the connections between the various municipal systems and waiting for the Bus/Train each time. Being from New York I would rather walk than wait for a bus. Getting directions was also a problem. It is dificult to ask people at a municipal bus stop in North Jersey: "Is this the best bus to take to Philadelphia?" That will get you some looks. In New Jersey everyone assumed that I was driving. I would ask a motorist how to get somewhere and they would give me directions like: "You can't turn right on this street, you have to go down about 4 lights, then you can turn right." Even though I was standing on a road in the middle of nowhere without a car!!!
I crossed the Mason/Dixon line on foot. It was my intention to walk to Harper's Ferry, WV. but on the 4th day it poured and I got stuck in a shopping mall in White Marsh, MD. for much of the day. I finally took a city bus to downtown Baltamore but by that time it was late and I had to decide if I should get a hotel room in Baltamore (expensive) or just get on the commuter train to Washington where I could stay with my uncle. The city bus stopped at Camden Yards and the train was waiting just as the sun was going down. So I got on.
As far as that stretch between Willmington and Baltamore goes, I walked most of the way to White Marsh where I got the Baltamore bus but as I recall it was easy to get municibal buses along the way. I would be surprised if there wasn't a bus from Wilmington to Newark, or close to it. Newark, and Aberdeen had buses, I'm prety sure. There was a stretch in there where I walked on a little 2 lane road, (1) I believe, which followed the Amtrack tracks to Aberdeen. I walked over 40 miles that day.
The whole thing was a lot of fun.
Good Luck and I hope you make it to Key West. Send us a post card.
How high is the 125th station on the and trains? I found this station to be quite interesting with walkway underneath and all. Reminds me of Hoyt Av on the
The most interesting part is that it's inbetween two underground stations !
Mr t__:^)
The question is not how high the 125 Street station is, but how low the street really is. Remember the subway (or el ) remains pretty level. It is the street that goes down into Manhattan Valley.
Of course, the #1/9 viaduct at 125/Broadway was built because the ground profile goes down and up again. It's probably about a 100 foot difference in altitude between 116th Street and 125th Street, and then 100 feet up again to 135th St. The reason why 125th Street is in a valley (called Manhattanville, BTW) is due to an old earthquake fault from centuries ago. This piece of construction is from the original 1904 IRT contract one line, and is actually a steel arch bridge that carries the tracks across 125th St. Incidentally, in 1904 this was called Manhattan Street, not 125th.
At this location the South end is subway and the North end is El. Does the street take a a dip here similar to Manhattan Valley?(From here to 242 it is el).
Good observation. At Dyckman Street, the IRT tunnel emerges from the north end of Washington Heights and enters Inwood, where the terrain is lower and flat. The ground takes a very steep drop (going northward) at this location, and the IRT tunnel, which follows St. Nicholas Ave., emerges onto another street, Nagle Ave. The difference is that at 125th, the normal Manhattan street grid is imposed on the terrain. At Dyckman, only one north/south avenue (Broadway) surmounts this drop (called Fort George Hill). East of Broadway, the major N-S avenues (St. Nicholas and Amsterdam) do not continue northward across Fort George Hill, and a different street grid appears north of Dyckman Street. A small street called Fort George Hill connects Nagle Ave. to St. Nicholas, but it is one way south.
I know that the IND is deep due to Hylan's insistence on a subway station at 125 (At least according to Buliding the IND Book). I know that 168 is "close" to the street level. Now the question; 181 IND is a deep station. Does the IND descend or do the streets really soar, leaving both lines(IRT and IND) in a deep tunnel? I know they are on different avenues=- is the IND or IRT deeper? Also 190 on the A has one exit where you go down a ramp to the street, and one exit needing elevators. Can you comment on the topography- I missed the tour due to work schedules.
The tunnels are deep below street grade at some locations because the streets "soar", as you accurately state. Examples:
IRT #1 - just below street surface at 145 and 157, then far below surface at 168, 181, and 191 because streets rise due to topography. Walk or drive along Broadway north of 157th and you'll see the hills. Just before Dyckman Street you'll see the alttitude descend, so that's why the #1 emerges from the tunnel and goes onto an el - it's trying to remain as level as possible - but the topography is not cooperating.
IND A - at 168th it's above the #1 and close to the surface. It swings north along Fort Washington Ave., where the altitude goes up, making the stations at 175, and particularly 181 and 190, deep in the ground. As with the #1, the land descends just before Dyckman St; so at Dyckman and 207, it is running along Broadway, on a lower altitude, so the tunnel is the normal New York style close to the surface.
Thanks for your response. can you take another question: AT 190 IND there is one exit where you go DOWN to exit (via a long ramp)-is this topography also?
Yes. This exit goes out the side of the station (to the east, as I recall), while the tunnel is following the high ridge of Washington Heights.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The New York transit museum's tour "Taking the A Train Uptown" is a great way to learn about this part of the city and they IND system.
I was on the Dec 5 tour led by Joe Cunningham and found it to be very informative.
I highly recommend this tour.
Wasn't this area called "Manhattan Valley" before it was shortened to "Manhattanville"?
--Mark
Earthquake fault? Interesting! I always wondered why the ground dipped at that point. I actually fancied that there had been mound builders living in the area centuries ago, and that they had dug out the earth in the Manhattanville area in order to build a nearby burial mound (Marcus Garvey/Mount Morris Park). The greatest problem with that is that the volumes of earth probably do not match.
Bob Sklar
I'd bet that many of you didn't like that headline. You thought it was an overgeneralization from the behavior of a few irresponsible workers. Most transit workers do their jobs as best they can and try to serve the public while they earn their living.
Well, that's how I feel when I see headings on postings like "Lawyers: Blood Sucking Scum" and lines like "Lawyers... A pox on them all!" Even if you presume that every lawyer who accepts lawsuits or who defends criminals is scum, which is highly unfair because many of these lawyers are honest ladies and gentlemen who believe that what they are doing helps people, there are literally thousands of lawyers who do other work, and even many whose life's work is to oppose the first group. Do you group a lawyer who prosecutes criminals, or who helps people draft their wills, or who advises a non-profit organization, or who defends people in lawsuits with the lawyers you hate? Many of you do, apparently!
Is this a rail board or a lawyer-bashing board? It seems to be the latter, so perhaps I, and any other attorneys on this board that have some dignity and self-esteem, should take their railfan postings where railfan issues are discussed instead of having our profession slandered by people who are too stupid to think in anything but the grossest stereotypes.
Good bye, gentlemen.
I don't for a moment deny that lawyers get a great deal of undeserved criticism. You are correct in pointing out that only some of them, probably a relatively small minority, actually represent plaintiffs in personal injury matters. I'll cite myself as a case in point - I graduated from law school in 1982, yet have spent less than a year in private practice and never handled anything remotely resembling a personal injury case (I now work as an editor for a financial/tax publisher, specializing in state and local taxation). So yes, at some level I resent the "bloodsucking scum" characterization when it's indiscriminantly applied to all law school graduates regardless of their actual job duties. And I'm surely not alone.
BUT - in the interests of fairness, I'm compelled to point out that some lawyers have contributed mightily to bringing down scorn on the entire profession. I refer, of course, to these ghastly "Have you been injured?" ads for personal injury lawyers that seem to pop up everywhere today (the NYC subway most definitely being one of these places). These ads prey on the fear and greed of what I assume are a mostly unsophisticated target audience. The underlying theme is that bringing a personal injury lawsuit, no matter how fraudulent, is just like buying a lotto ticket, though with better chances of winning (and I'll bet that the people most frequently taken in by these ads are the same folks who are suckered into spending more than they can afford on lotto). Every time I see one of these ads, I understand fully why there's so much hatred of lawyers.
You are correct that perhaps we have spent too much time bashing the legal profession. I for one have one more thing to say and then I will not mention the legal profession again.
O. J. Simpson is free !!!!
A pox on F. Lee Baily
A pox on Johnny Cocheran
A pox on Barry Shect
A pox on the rest of the Dream Team
Ladies and gentlemen:
I apologize for blowing up like that, but "heat of the moment" and all that, you know. This is a very interesting board and I could never really leave it even if I tried. (Does that make me a transit addict?) Even the people who've boiled my blood with their anti-lawyer postings -- it's easy to do: I'm of full-blooded Irish descent and Irish people don't take guff lying down (^: -- have made useful and interesting postings on transit topics.
While this is a transit board, the law affects transit and is a legitimate topic here. Most of the lawyer-bashes have started out as legitimate transit-related questions. So bring on the legal debates, so long as we keep them civil!
And some of you do have valid points that misleading and emotional advertising, and frivolous and ridiculous lawsuits (though not as common as people think), DO give the law business a bad reputation.
As to O.J. Simpson and the "Dream Team," I agree 100% but I'd add "a pox on the jurors!" The Simpson lawyers were selling the Brooklyn Bridge with the whole "Furhman is a racist, so all the prosecution evidence is therefore tainted" argument, but at least they were doing their jobs to try to get Simpson off. The jury didn't have to buy it, but they did.
John, I accept you apology. It takes a good and honest person to apologize and it seems you are a dedicated rail buff (fan) like most of us. Erik, who made you upset, is really a good honest guy who I know personnally. You have to understand that Erik has some legitimate problems of his own that will involve attorneys and that's all I'll say on that matter in respect to Erik.
By the way, why don't you click on "What's New" on the Home page and then you can view the pages I have on this sight. Lets discuss that on Subtalk.
Again, thank you for the sincerity.
Deep down Lawers are good people. The legal system is created to settle disputes and to provide rights for everyone. Was OJ's team to blame? who knows the DA the Dream team and the Jury are all involved.
But thats not a transit topic. John I enjoy your input to this board and just one more thing, Why do they call thoes long boring documents "Briefs"?
See ya on the "L"
Thanks John, for putting it straight. I'm no big fan of the legal profession, but I do respect the fact that for a free and even (mostly) democratic society (such as it is) they are a neccessary to 'keep the squeeky wheels of justice' turning in this country.
And on a final note regarding O.J. Simpson and his Dream Team. They were HIRED as the legal attorneys for Mr. Simpson and like it or not they DID THEIR JOB and DID IT WELL. If I were in some god-foreshaken legal bind -- and could afford them -- I'd like to have such formidable representation. And finally, I don't like Mr. Simpson (I think he's a snake and without a doubt a murderer -- or accomplise to the act). However, everyone harps on Simpson's getting off on murder of his former spouse, meanwhile little is heard of the countless thousands of women throughout the country who are abused and murdered by their spouses every year. It just shows how the media -- and society is a slave to 'celebrity status'. It's sad.
I never cared for O. J. either, especially after he tore up Notre Dame in the 1967 ND-USC game. I referred to him as "Old Jerk" for the longest time. ND got a measure of revenge the following year, holding him to just 55 yards rushing for the entire game in a 21-21 tie.
BTW Can you get to ND on the South Shore on game days. It looked like it might be possible when I drove into South Bend last year.
Glad you don't carry a grudge though Steve.
I have been trying to stay out of this, but I cant stay out and watch my co-workers dragged throught he mud.
true, some transit employees are lazy just like some attorneys,
however some of us are dedicated and enjoy our jobs-- Many times I have started early, even if for free. Last winter there was a water main break disrupting IRT in Downtown Brooklyn. I single handedly cleared the station, issuing block tickets and then clearing the other platform. All before duty hours! The supervisor came by later and told em to my face that he was expecting bedlam like Atlantic Avenue and instead found calm like nothing happened. If I had been one of thos elaxy people I would not have gotten involved, but I care about the system and my customers.
I can relate many other such stories.
let us all stop bashing each other. What counts is that we are all subway/rail fans and should confine ourselves to rail!
Time to climb off the soapbox!! The defense rests!!
(How's that Counsellor?)
"I have been trying to stay out of this, but I cant stay out and watch my co-workers dragged through the mud."
"true, some transit employees are lazy just like some attorneys,"
"however some of us are dedicated and enjoy our jobs..."
"let us all stop bashing each other."
If you read the first paragraph of my original message, you would see that I'm not disagreeing with you at all. The heading of my message was supposed to be a caricature of the "Lawyers: blood sucking scum" message heading that was on the board that morning. My very point was the same as yours: that some people, unhappy with the conduct of a few members of a profession, proceed to generalize that bad behavior to all members of that profession.
I have nothing but respect for most transit and railway workers, who, like most people in all other career fields, are doing their job the best they can. I had no intention of actually insulting transit workers. In other words, the apparently insulting heading was intended to be ironic, and the body of the message was supposed to make that clear.
Windy City John, you can also not read those post, which I haven't !
Some folks will always use any forum available to have their say, but it's like the telephone ... who says you have to answer it just because it's ringing. My kids get mad as hell at me for letting it ring. I hope the one who's doing this lawyer bashing gets mad that I haven't read a single one of his threads !
Mr t__:^)
While I am Not Sinless in regards to Lawyer bashing, those of us on the Sub talk board should remember that there are two sides to every lawsuit. For instance, Marcia Clark and Christopher Darden are both attorneys who worked thier tails off to try to convict Mr. Simpson, however the other side won. In our free society, there are certain protections (Jury nullification, Reasonable doubt, and Double jeopardy) which have the effect of ensuring that Mr. Simpson will never spend a day in jail However civil proceedings have none of those protections. so the victims' families went to civil court to find justice. Fred Goldman, the father of the young man that was butchered that night AND HIS ATTORNEYS have undoubtedly made Mr. Simpson's life a living nightmare and I don't think it could have happened to a nicer guy. Now, as for Mr Bredin, he is a highly skilled individual with a wealth of specialized knowlege gained through a combination of advanced education and experience. Lawyering, like any other occupation, certainly has it's share of slugs, but I'm willing to assume that a fellow railfan is a good person, and Mr. Bredin's special insights and knowlege make him one of the most valuable contributors to the Sub Talk community. And if he should ever become involved in equipment preservation, his value to a museum organization would be ENORMOUS. Lighten Up, Guys.
I can assure you many NYCT passengers agree 100% with the headline!
I know I get that every Morning with these people going downtown. But hey part of the job is to get cursed at and continue on like nothing happened.
Who does get respect? Lawyers? Journalists? Politicians? Cops? Teachers? Union Leaders? Business Executives?
It's a disrespectful age.
[Who does get respect? Lawyers? Journalists? Politicians? Cops? Teachers? Union Leaders? Business Executives?
It's a disrespectful age.]
I'm not sure how old you are Larry, however, I started my working career in 1970. It was a time that your word meant something and also a time in which respect for fellow workers was still practiced by the many.
Today, well it has been on a constant slide downward since then.
Jim K.
Chicago
In general, no profession gets any respect. However, put on a uniform and show no respect to the general public and see what that gets you.
Why should any transit worker care whether they receive a thank you or the bird? I work harder fighting a losing battle to receive decent treatment from the bigshots that manage the TA. It is not that I care less for passengers than I do for my check but everyone has their good days and their bad days. It is not fare that I have a manager that tells me that I should take up a collection to buy furniture for our crew room or beg the supers for the sandpaper the TA calls toiletpaper. A crew room with a water bottle empty for a day or two is total disrespect. Work programs that don't allow lunch or time to go to take a dump should be more of a priority than a f-U or thank U. If the morale of most if not all transit workers were improved then ALL would benefit.
Guess what, the TA dumps on RTO. RTO! Most other departments do not have to put up with the level of nonsense that we tolerate. One way for you to be heard is to vote down every contract that they put forward. Every single member of RTO, whether you are with TWU or SSSA needs to vote, because all the other departments do not give back what we give back.
I've been in the crew facilities at several terminals including 179th St., 95th Street, Parsons/Archer, Bedford park and many others. They are filthy but who leaves them that way. I'm not talking about floors not being mopped. I'm talking about half-eaten food left on tables and spills left in microwaves. Go into the bathrooms. Is there something in the rulebook about not flushing when you are done? Some of you guys leave your creations in the bowls like they are works of art to be shown off. You should have paper towels and toilet paper. They have commodity #'s. They should be ordered by the dispatcher or Line superintendent just like batteries and other supplies. However, if you guys don't respect your quarters enough to help keep it clean, your managers get the misguided idea that you don't mind living that way.
BTW, the TA has a contract with the Dept. of Corrections. They supply furniture made by convicts at a very reasonable cost. Each General Supt. has a furniture budget and it doesn't only have to go for their offices. Talk to them and maybe they'll shake loose some sheckles.....
Funny thing about public management -- the union contracts typically provide more pay and benefits that the same people could get in the public sector, but everything else, especially the working conditions, suck. Its part of the union-management dynamic: war.
My Dad worked for this company, where if you went a certain amount of time without an absence your boss took you out to lunch on the arm. More time and you went a level up, then a level up, until finally yoiu reached the Chairman of the Board. My Dad said that there are lots of things a company can do that really don't cost much but really make an employee feel motivated and welcome.
In the public sector, there are lots of things that agencies do that really don't save much money, but really make employees feel pissed off and de-motivated. For one thing, virtually every city building is awful (though a little better if they are maintained by WEPs or contractors rather than city employees). When I was at the TA, I worked at 25 Chapel St. For anyone who was ever in that hole, enough said.
Actually many are. One of the biggest problem I face on a daily basis is "Employee Availability" and "employee productivity". This is especially true in the ranks of car cleaners. The ones working nights earn well over $18 per hour. They get 12 sick days, 11 holidays and 20-25 vacation days per year. Despite that, many use their leave balances up within two to three months and then they are sick without pay for 30 or mor days per year. We expect employees to work a minimum of 225 days per year yet I have several who actually work less than 100. Try to get them fired and they come in with (that "L" word again) to sue the TA.
How deep is the tunnel at Grand Central?
[How deep is the 7 tunnel at Grand Central?]
It's at the lowest subway level, I'd say about 90 feet below the street.
It was probably my fault with the threads on attorneys. Sorry, will stick with the direct subway subject.
The word is that testing will be done on this coming Sunday night and if all goes well, normal G service will resume Monday AM.....
(G line coming back). That's great news. I guess the TA (intentionally or unintentionally) greatly overestimated how hard it would be to replace the signal machine.
Kind of makes you wonder when the H tracks of the Manhattan Bridge will reopen. They look pretty close to being done to me.
With Rudy and George seeking higher office, one wonders if they might try to open all the tracks until November 2000, then (oops) shut down the A/B tracks after election day.
They have a little under 50 yd. of trackbed to replace, at the south end of the bridge, right before when it goes underground. Then there's the whole messy, leaky issue of Canal-Broadway. My guess is they will complete on time.
Wayne
So I'm tryoing to kill some time between interviews, and I ind myself wandering the area of GCT. The new The Map is out (and for some reason this Mets fan spent $84 on Yankees Metrocards :( )
So now I'm using a public computer at the Mid-Manhattan branch to post about what I ound on the new map.
The Williamsburg Bridge is denoted as OOS, effective 5/1/99, and on the map, service to the 63st Tunnel is normal, and there is a note that service returns 5/22/99. There is an inset with the detour service info. The ino on the service changes to the , , , , , and the new . Info on the service has been added, and Beverl(e)y Rd is still misspelled.
-Hank
Thanks Hank for that info. Looking forward to taking a look at it.
Yeah, what's the deal with the spelling of Beverl(e)y Road? Does it have an "e" or not? There's a street in my Toronto neighbourhood which at some blocks is spelled Linsmore and at others Linnsmore. However, even though one subway station's exit is onto that street, the station is not named for it, nor is there another station with its name. Just another urban idiosyncrasy?
This reminds me of the Cortlandt St station on the N/R. The street-level entry stairs, at least at the 24-hour Church/Dey entrances, say "Cortland" (without the final t).
While we're on the subject of misspellings, at the northbound Bowling Green station, the platform level entrance, a 'Metrocad' is required for entry off-hours.
-Hank
Must have been written by a Bahstonian...
That's the special "Massachusetts-only" entrance.
--Mark
Does the new S service refer to that in the shuttle operating along Nassau St? Will the symbol be brown?
No, they're ,aking it gray for some reason, probably to more easily distinguish it from the M service.
Some mistakes they have made is not bolding the M's from Marcy to Hewes or the C's along Fulton, and still showing the A at local stops. The A still stops (and the C doesn't run) at late nights, but the map policy since the first revision in 1980 is to ignore late night service on the actual map itself (e.g. the 6 not running and the 4 making local stops in Manh, and the F making local stops in Queens.) So likewise, the C shuold be bold, and no A's at the local stops--like it is in Manhattan)
Same thing with the 3 and 4 in Brooklyn. The show the 3 stops at Kingston and Nostrand. Also Eastern, GAP, and Bergen.......
The 1st time in awhile I did not use bullets:):)
Hey, does anyone know why the 5 in both Bronx and Manhattan (except along the Dyre Avenue branch) is always PLAIN instead of BOLD under the stations names? Based on what Eric B said, and the fact that the 5 runs from morning until evening and throughout the weekend, shouldn't it be 5 instead of 5?
No, because the 5 doesn't run during late night hours, except on the Dyre Ave. line (the map considers the Dyre Ave. shuttle to be a 5 and not an 'S' train).
But what I said is that the mapmakers treat lines that run all times except late nights as full time, with bold letters. The 5, I guess they just forgot to change (as with the lines I mentioned.
I answer to 3Train Mike, I do see bold on the 3 at Kingston and Nostrand and the other stops.
The reason the 5 is plain, rather than bold, is because it does not run at all (or most) times between 6am and midnight SEVEN DAYS A WEEK.
On Saturday and Sunday nights, service into Manhattan stops at about 9 PM. On Sunday, service into Manhattan doesn't start until about 10 AM (ala the 3).
In some parts of the Bronx, of course, the 5 must be plain because those stops are skipped during rush hour.
Michael
>On Saturday and Sunday nights, service into Manhattan stops at about 9 PM. On Sunday, service into Manhattan doesn't start until about 10 AM (ala the 3).
Yeah, but the 3 isbold. They used to count these periods (and showed the 4 going to New Lots), but soon they came to treat even these times as 'late night'.
Have you ever rode the Midway Line to the Midway Airport or the line to O'Hare Airport? These lines end at a bumper post with no track runout. Are speed commands displayed on the ADU in the cab of the train all the way to bumper post? If so, what is the speed command?
I don't know. Even though I have rode both the Orange Line to Midway and the Blue Line to O'Hare, I was never in the first car on those rides. It's a good question, and I'll have to look next time I have the chance.
Maybe Jim Kraemer can ask at the CERA meeting this month if he is going. I think its a week from Friday.
You are getting pretty technical for us here Mr. Train Control.
[Have you ever rode the Midway Line to the Midway Airport or the line to O'Hare Airport? These lines end at a bumper post with no track runout. Are speed commands displayed on the ADU in the cab of the train all the way to bumper post? If so, what is the speed command?]
I read the question that was asked of John this afternoon. I too, don't know the answer for sure. However, I have a friend who is a motorman (opps, operator) for the CTA. We discussed the question this evening. While he isn't qualified on the O'Hare or Midway line, his feeling was that the cab signal indication would be either a Flashing Red (15 MPH or like a restricting), or a CAB 15 (solid yellow) on the approach to these terminals. At O'Hare Terminal, there are "timed" wayside signals with "trip" protection spaced about every 100 feet into the station. I'll be using the Midway Orange Line Friday morning to catch a flight back east to attend the 3 Generation Streetcar (Trolley) Charter in Philadelphia on Sunday. I'll check out the operation while I'm there.
To be quite honest, for a CTA train to get to the bumping post at either terminal is almost impossible as the speed of the train is controlled by the ATC from the interlocking plant into the station and I believe the speed CAN NOT exceed 15 MPH.
The CERA meeting is next Friday, April 23rd. There are a few experts in attendance that I can pose this question.
BTW, do the curious know how the CTA's ATC system works?
Jim K.
Chicago
About the timed signals, let me what the spacing between signals is the platform limits and if train stops are associated with them. Also, does CTA use a wheel detector system for the driving the stops clear or is it done by track circuits, US & S Mini-bonds at the signal locations? If Mini-bonds are used let me know if insulated joints are employed with back to back to back bonds. AC track circuits could also be used with #9 wires pinned to rails at IJ location.
[About the timed signals, let me what the spacing between signals is the platform limits and if train stops are associated with them.]
As I stated in my first answer:
At O'Hare Terminal, there are "timed" wayside signals with "trip" protection spaced about every 100 feet into the station.
As for the remainder of the question, it is way to technical for me and I'll have to ask someone who knows.
Jim K.
Chicago
[BTW, do the curious know how the CTA's ATC system works?]
I'm a Senior Train Control Engineer on the MARTA project in Atlanta and have worked for GRS, MARTA, Union Switch & Signal and now MARTA General Engineering Consultant. This July is 27 years designing, testing, writing specifications on cab signal train control systems including NYCTA, WMATA and MARTA. I am familiar with the CTA's signal system using US & S AF500 track circuits with 8 frequencies for train detection and 4990 Hz for cab signaling. They use single rail AC track circuits in the interlockings. The trains have cab signal with overspeed protection from both signal suppliers. GRS signaled the Lake Street in 1966 with jointless track circuits for the very first time using Wee-Z impedance and US & S signaled the O'Hare Extension for the first time from Jefferson Park using their Mini-bond with a J bar look alike to GRS's Wee-Z called the AF500 system. The extenion to Midway Airport is done by US & S and using a vital microprocessor based system called Microlok.
I could go on and on however, I asked the questions because I wasn't sure what CTA does when the track ends in the station platform.
Correction, cab frequency carrier frequency is 4550 Hz for the CTA while WMATA is 4550 Hz and 5525 Hz and MARTA uses 2340 Hz.
Thanks John for giving it a look.
Does anyone know if the transport exhibition in Toronto next month
is open to the public?
When next month?
--Mark
May 24-27
I found a copy of the concourse map in an old Bulletin Almanac. Please advise if you'd like to have one mailed to you. You can e-mail direct if you want.
Is anyone familiar with the Park and Ride for the # 7 Train at Shea Stadium? Is the parking actually in the Shea Stadium parking lot, or is it a lot near the Shea Stadium Station? Also is there a park and Ride near the F train and 179 St.?
At Shea the park/ride is actually the stadium lot, entered on 126th St. north of Roosevelt Ave. In the 179/Hillside vicinity there are some small private lots, but no one large park/ride similar to Shea. Shea is not a problem getting a spot (does anyone know what it costs - I haen't used it in many years). For 179/Hillside on the F train, my advice is walk, take a bus, or get dropped off.
For the F try parking at the parking field at Lefrak City behind the Queens Mall. It is a one block walk to the G/R lines at Woodhaven Blvd. and you can then transfer to the F at Roosevelt. I believe it is three dollars for 12 hours in lot, quarters only. Also there is a good park and ride just north of the 7 Terminal in Downtown Flushing, on 41st Avenue between Union and Main Streets (across from the 109 PCT), a short walk from Roosevelt Avenue. Again I believe it's three bucks for 12 hours (time limits not enforced after 10:00pm) and be sure to have exact change.
If anyone is interested in a brief history of CTA signal systems, or lack thereof prior to 1970's, you may want to refer to this URL:
http://members.aol.com/chictafan/signals.html
It does a decent job of explaining how the ATC/Cab Signals work on the 'L'.
This information is from Bill Vandervoort's "CTA Transit Enthusiasts" website. The portion on the Cab Signals is an excerpt from a General Railway Signal publication dated in 1968.
Enjoy!
Jim K.
Chicago
In the NY Post Thursday April 15, page 16, is an article about Transit officials propose to buy 580 additional MetroCard vending machines to cover all the major subway stations by the end of next year.
This is a small article at the bottom of page 16.
After you have read the article you thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Actually I saw this in the "Winter 1999" Cubic newsletter.
A VP in NYC was commenting about what a chore it was going to be to get those boxes down the stairs at every subway station. I sent him a e-mail (because Cubic's naming convention is easy to figure out) & got a polite reply the same day.
I suggested that they consider staging the boxes at the subway yards, then delivering them at night on work trains ... a great buff photo opportunity ? He said they spoke to the TA about it. I think I'll just leave it at that.
I also let him know how I came into possession of the Newsletter (I'm a Cubic customer at a bus depot who happens to like subways), so he didn't think I was a crank.
Mr t__:^)
The problem with your idea is that at most stations they'd have to figure out how to get them UP the stairs at every station to the mezzanine fare controls... :-)
You're absolutely right. When I talked about this further, via e-mail, I acknowledged that it wouldn't work at every station ... but it would work at a lot & that the crews at night would probally love to play with their trains, i.e. you would have to deliver to a station, then get the train out of the way, then get ready for the next delivery, etc. I also got an e-mail from one of his subordinates (who I already knew) and actually I met the VP on my field trip to Manhattan last Wed. (I didn't go looking for him, that would be pushing it, he was walking down the hall & I got introduced).
I guess you can surmise that I'm a squeaky wheel :-)
Mr t__:^)
It'd be interesting trying to get one of those vending machines through an iron maiden :)
--Mark
That mean MTA are going to get rid of Station Agents in the future?
When the CTA here in Chicago put in Transit Card machines in every station, they didn't get rid of the station agents. Instead, they became "Customer Assistants," who no longer handle cash or tokens in any way and have to come out of the booth to help passengers. Mind you, they seem to spend about half their time assisting confused passengers with the Transit Card machines.
To answer two questions:
1- Station agents are not going to disappear--even if they have machines we'll be there to assist with the machines and provide security
2- Iron Maidens--all stations have a wide gate that can be unlocked. The extra gate is usually open during G.O.s or Police use them to remove homeless.
Well recently the Brooklyn campus of Long Island University is turning the old generator near Dekalb (On the Campus it self)into another another building on the campus. I got a chance to see what it looked like in sice of the buliding when they started to tear it down. It lokked very iunteresting and reminded me of a movie on the IRT showing off thier generators. This pice of history will soon be gone but not forgotten. My questions are when did it open and when did it close?
Also why did it close down and relocated. what year was it relocated?
According to this month's 'Underground News' magazine, this year will be the last in which London Transport generates its own power for the London Underground other than keeping an emergency generator on standby. Lots Road in Chelsea will be closed and I understand that Greenwich will be kept on for emergency use for station lighting only, i.e. in the event of a power cut, no attempt will be made to run trains.
My question is, are there any other major systems in the world that generate their own power for operations, or was London the last.
Max, I believe that the Lots Road site has been marked for development for several years now. I pressume all power will be drawn from the grid as I understand that 50 per cent is taken already. Greenwich is to go over to gas turbine generation.
Simon,
All power will be taken from the grid, and underground stations will be have battery fed emergency lights (a legal requirement for an alternative supply in the event of a power cut). If a power cut takes place, Greenwich will then be started up, and there should be sufficient time to return porer to the station lighting before the batteries run out.
Max Roberts
What the first post called a generator is really a substation.
Sorry, transatlantic communication difficulties!
Max Roberts
Who's going to be on the hoagie ride this sunday? Any distinguishing
caps or jackets?
I'll be there. Since I don't have any pins, the best way to describe
myself is George Costanza meets The Commish. :D
(As an aside, does anyone know if there's parking anywhere down
there?)
[Who's going to be on the hoagie ride this sunday? Any distinguishing
caps or jackets?]
I'll be there with my group of streetcar nut friends. I'll be looking for that hoagie and will probably be first in line for lunch. Can't get a real hoagie out here in Chi-town!
You can recognize me by the blue railfan hat. It has a Reading Lines diamond patch sewed on it with about a dozen transit buttons.
As for parking, I think it is all "street" parking. I know most of the operators park on the street there.
See you there!
Jim K.
Chicago
See you guys on sunday! I'll have my blue "new el" teeshirt on a probably a blue cap marked "Numar"
Until Sunday,
Chuck Greene
Anyone know if there will be another G.O. (General Order) on the Brighton portion of the D this weekend. Seems the poster is missing at Kings Hwy from last weekend that had express northbound Hwy to the Park.
Need to plan my trip to the Mets Saturday >G<....
I'll get to you as soon as possible probably as early as 10a in the morning.
Meeting today ,,9 30 AM at 347 Madison
Board Notification
NCYT Subdivision B
Subway Schedulues Effective October 1999
A===Additional SB service 9 AM to 0930 Am,and NB 930 AM to 1000 AM
Headways every 8 minutes
B---Additional NB Service bet 7 30 AM to 9 AM no Changes due to Manhattan Bridge Capacity Restraints..3 00 PM to 7 PM Headways every 7 Minutes
E/F Peak Shoulder additions
0930 AM to 1100 AM and 3 Pm to 5 PM ,headways 5-6 minutes
L
5 AM to 11PM,
Additional Service Early AM Shoulder 4.5 to 5 Mins
..MIdday service Freq Improvements every 8 mins..
Evening Peak every 4.5 min s,,,,continuing to 11PM
N and R
NB to Queens--7 30 PM to 10 pm ,,from every 10 mins to now every 8 mins,,or from 12 mins to now every 10 mins..
SB to Brooklyn bet 630 Pm to 0930 Pm Inclusive
E and F Sunday Service 9 AM to 10 AM and 3PM to 8 PM...In the AM ,,freq every 10 mins,and the afternoon ,will be orig from 10 mins to now 8 mins,,or from orig every 12 mins,to now every 10 Mins
(No service increase on the B due to Manhattan Bridge capacity). Nice if people who lived along that route understood this. Acutally, the D and Q are far worse in terms of crowding, but can't be increased either.
Now I wish that the MTA decided to build that tunnel under the bridge. Wouldn't life be much easier????
Was walking past the trapdoor in the sidewalk on the southeast corner of Park Avenue South and 18th St. today, which is the only street-level access to the old abandoned 18th St. #6 station.
In passing it, i noticed that the entrance looked like it had been left slightly open...curiosity got the better of me, and I pulled up on it, to find not only was it open but the grating on the old stairway barring access to the station was open as well!
I managed to avoid the temptation to slip down there and look around...but still, one would think that NYCTA would make sure that these things remain closed...all temptation aside, one can get seriously hurt wandering down there alone, as many Subtalkers reminded me several months ago when I made a post about that station.
I guess their policy is to wait until someone actually goes down there, gets hurt, and then sues the TA because that person used bad judgement???
I was rollerblading around Ridge Avenue in Philly and found the
closed Spring Garden stop. They seemed to place a wooden box over
the entranceways and that was pretty much it. The North entrance was
open, ie there was enough of the box broken away to allow easy
access to stairs. A quick glance down into the graffiti and liquor
bottles made it obvious that it was not a place I should be. :)
So, Septa doesn't guard their abandoned stations terribly well either.
[Was walking past the trapdoor in the sidewalk on the southeast corner of Park Avenue South and 18th St. today, which is the only street-level access to the old abandoned 18th St. #6 station.
In passing it, i noticed that the entrance looked like it had been left slightly open...curiosity got the better of me, and I pulled up on it, to find not only was it open but the grating on the old stairway barring access to the station was open as well!
I guess their policy is to wait until someone actually goes down there, gets hurt, and then sues the TA because that person used bad judgement??? ]
NYCT must take its cue from the city when it comes to blocking off dangerous conditions. For several years, there was a steep rise and dip in the sidewalk on the east side of Fifth Avenue, just south of the Empire State Building. People were constantly tripping on the defect and suing the city, to the point that the city was shelling out hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in damages. One enterprising lawyer actually put a sandwich-board style advertising sign on the sidewalk near the defect! It took at least five years for the city to fix the sidewalk.
While the Lexington Av. (63rd St.) station was still under construction, I had occasion to pass by the entrance. It was completely open. I went down, and actually climbed all the way down to the platforms. (Thank God for the escalators and elevators in there now!) I don't recall whether or not I saw anyone working there, either closeup or at a distance, but I was dressed neatly, and nobody challenged me. I was able to explore the platforms, including the now closed-off areas behind the walls, which I then thought contained the tracks leading from the Sunnyside Yard to Grand Central.
After resting for a while, I climbed all the way back out. (I might as well have climbed Mt. Everest!) Months later, I passed by there again, and found the station securely covered by a wooden building shell. I've always been amused by the possibility that the foreman called the MTA to ask what "the inspector" thought of the way the job was proceeding, and was told "What inspector?" That would really have made the foreman nervous, and he would have promptly had the entrance covered over.
Bob Sklar
Starting 4/19 (it was supposed to be 4/12) a new series of Metrocards celebrating the "uniqueness of the subway" is due to be issued with new deisgns monthly thru October 1999. This is what ads on some subway cars have been touting. They even give a web address:
http://metrocard.citysearch.com (that is where I found out that 4/12 was changed to 4/19. The intent apparently is to get people to roder Metrocards online.
So far there is no real additional information yet as to the designs.
Before I forget, the signs on the subway cars mention that the Transit Musuem stores will have them (I say "them" because I don't know how many will get issued for April - it might only be one) starting May 1.
Should be interesting.
Anyone have additional information?
starting 4/19/1999 at 7am there will be a "Board of Education" MetroCard on sale at booths at the following locations:
Times Square--1/2/3/7/9/N/R/S/A/C/E
Chambers--J/ Brooklyn Bridge-4/5/6
Court Street/Borough Hall- 2/3/4/5/N/R
DeKalb--D/M/N/Q/R
West 4th--A/B/C/D/E/F/Q
Chambers/WTC-- A/C/E
Fordham Rd-- D line. It will not be sold at Fordham on the 4.
Queens Plaza-- E/F/G/R
71 Continental --E/F/G/R
169--F
Jamaica center-- E/J/Z
34thSt-- 1/2/3/9
116--1/9
137--1
242 --1
23--6
Grand Central --4/5/6/7/S
68--6
Bedford Park-- 4. It will not be sold at Bedford Park IND
Franklin Ave-= 2/3/4/5
Flatbush Ave -- 2/5
***This info is taken from the official AFC Bulletin**
Please note: Fordham and Bedford Park--the card will be available ONLY at the location shown. Even though the 4 and B/D are two-three blocks away the Fordham IRT and Bedford PArk IND will; not sell the cards.
This card will ****not*** be sold outside of the booths.
May 1st a new card will be available at the City Hall station only. It says "TWU it is our pleasure to take you for a ride".
I'm just kidding here, BUT it isn't all that expensive, so they could order just such a MetroCard.
P.S. If one of our TWU friends likes this idea send me a private e-mail & I'll tell you who to contact (phone or e-mail).
Mr t__:^)
I apologize for starting this off topic thread. Had I
known it would have gone this far, I would have made my
statements more inflamatory.
I didn't mean to say that all lawyers are bad, or that they all do a bad job. I know one attorney, who is a pretty nice guy. He really sticks it to his client's opponents though, so if your'e on the other end of the stick, you might call the man a "scum bag" He represented my landlord( there's REAL scum!) and I beat his ass in court, but I still liked him. Dispite all the lies, and nasty terrible things he had his client swear to.
A case in which I am some what involved in now, involves,
lawywers. They will no doubt, suck the blood (money) from
the member of the union, whom I represent. See, they will
face off in court, against lawyers from the Transit
Authority( I refuse to call them by the "new, friendly"
name. Taking AUTHORITY out of the title doesen't make them
any nicer!)
Those attorney's probably aren't very good though, or else
they would'nt be working for the Authority. They will drag the case through the system for years I suppose. Filling motions to dismiss, and continuances, and briefs, and yada, yada.
All because they KNOW they will LOSE eventually. They HOPE that the Authority's unlimited supply of lawyers and money will eventually wear down the good man that they are trying to ruin.
They will do this without remorse. Shamelessly, and with great zeal, they will prosecute their case, dispite the FACT that they know, that it is WRONG! Morally, ethically, any way you look at it ,WRONG!
This is because Mangement, LIED. They were proven wrong, and they adamantly REFUSE to admit it.
In case after case, brought to their attention, they admitted to the problem. They acknowledged the problem. They even awarded people who "discovered" the problem.
But now, because they cannot admit to the mistake they made the first time, they will spend thousands, ruin a good man's reputation, and deprive that man's family of livelyhood, to hide the truth.
To those of you who remember my post from January 13, about the signal which remaned clear after a train had passed, then you know of what I write.
My train that evening, was an R. We had arrived at Elmhurst Av. on the IND Quenns line, and as I looked out the window, lo and behold! A signal which should have been RED was YELLOW!
My first response, was to call the Command Center, on the Radio. When they didn't respond after several tries, Roosvelt Av Tower answered. They called Command on the phone, and finally responded to me on the radio. They didn't seem to to take me seriously, they never take Conductors seriously. It wasn't until I used the words "potentailly catastrophic situation" that they responded in kind.
The next day the signal had been repaired of course.
A week later, at the TWU hall, I was pulled to the side by one of our Staff Reps. He needed to know the date and time of when it had happened. A little more than a year before, A Motorman on the G line had rear-ended another train just past the Steinway St. station. That Motorman, Mr. Steven Sales had told the RTO Stupidintendents at the scene that as he left the station, the signal had been GREEN. Of course, management philosophy being that all employees are lying, they didn't believe him.
After interviewing his Conductor, and other witnesses, a Police Officer among them, and exhaustive testing of the signal..... They still claim he was lying.
Point: If the signal had been red, the Conductor would not have closed the doors. The train wouldn't have left.
Point: after constant monitoring, the signal REPEATED the phenomena, at least once, and supposedly twice.
Point: If management didn't belive Mr. Sales, then why did they replace that signal's ENTIRE wiring, and relays?
In March, after repeated requests for the tapes of my conversation with the Command Center,the TWU had had enough. TA management keeps tapes of all radio and phone conversations with the Command Center. They flat out REFUSED to give those tapes to the TWU. They told us ( I am a union Shop Steward) that we could file a federal Freedom of Information Act request.
On March the 12th A reporter from the New York Daily News sat down for an interview with Steve Sales and myself, and some of our Union leadership. I suppose he contacted the TA to verify our statements, and to get the Authority's side of things. Any good reporter would.
That Saturday, three days later I got a letter dated March 12. I was being invited to " A luncheon, in your honor" because of my actions on the 12 of January. I was paid for the day (9.35 Hrs, I had a penalty job that day) and given a free lunch. Nat Ford himself gave me a beautiful certificate.
There were two other employees there that day for a an award. A Supervisor and another Conductor. We had all seen the same thing, IN THREE DIFFERENT PLACES!
At Mr. Sales' disciplinary hearing, before he was FIRED, Superintendent Bartolotta,of RTO, SWORE, that it was impossible for a signal to stay clear after a train had passed. Him and Train Service Supervisor Hazel had concocted some crazy and totally unfeasable scenario about what had happened, and the dumb arbitrator actually bought it.
They said that Steve had stopped at the extreme end of the platform, and the signal had been out of his veiw, because of the arrangement of the window. Because he was so close to the end of the platform, and the signal, his front wheels had crossed over the insulated rail joint, and had "keyed" the signal. Causing the automatic stop, stop arm to go down.
This, they said, must be true, because they claimed to have done this several times to be sure of the theory.
THEY LIE!
Point:
That signal is into the tunnel some 15 or 20 feet! If he could have keyed it, then he would have been off the Conductor's indication board,AND HIS CONDUCTOR WOULD NOT HAVE OPENED THE DOORS! Then all the passengers on the train,or at least the first car would have known SOMETHING was wrong.
That station has most of it's passenger traffic coming down the first stairway at the front of the platform. Are they suggesting that ALL those people saw NOTHING!?
Now because of Management hubris, Mr Sales must suffer for a crime he didn't commit. The Lawyers will profit from his plight, and management's lackeys will be called in to lie. The TA's attorneys will promulgate this lie. Draw your own conclusons as to why. I suggest that the little farce of an award ceremony, was given to show, that they" are on top of the problem" Can't loose public confidence in the system now. Can we? Not with ridership (profit$) at all time highs?
Take an 8 hour job that does 3 trips, cut all the break time, add an extra trip. Then cut some crews. That's productivity! Yeah! Never mind that it incurrs the enmity of the employees, they're replacable. The level of morale amongst my fellow crews is in the dumps. But management could care less. As they sit on a record setting pile of cash, I can name only one reason for this and many other problems in today's society.
Crime, out of wedlock birth, fraud, drugs, the state of our political system, and yes, the TA.
SHAME.
No one has it any more. Look hard and you will see that many of our problems today, in the last 30 years or so come fro our lack of honor, our lack of SHAME. Throw a scrap of paper on the floor of a subway car years ago? Nope, too embarrased.
Frame a man who's innocent, so you can look good? No problem today!
Erik
P.S. Steve? Today's cars do excell in performance, as compared to yesterday. But not in two critical areas. My R16 both goes faster, and STOPS faster than anything the TA's got. Except the good ol'R127/134's. Two steps foward, one step back.
To bad Mr Bottlelotta forgot about the collision between the revenue collector and the R-62a at 103St on the Broadway line a few years back when that signal too was green.
Know the difference between a lawyer and an eel?
ANSWER: One's a bottom mud dwelling animal that subsists on the dying and decomposing rotting creatures. The other's a fish!
I now have good reason to ignore all of you.
-Hank
Hey Mike. I deleted this post once before, and I guess you noticed since you reposted it. I think we've started to go a little beyond the topic of this board. I'm sure there are plenty of lawyer bashing sites around that would be glad to take the extra traffic from you guys.
Dave,
Sorry, you are right. Guess I got just a little carried away. My apologies.
Mike H
I have to admit, reading this brought a few things to mind...
I had a discussion with a fellow motor instructor discussing operating philosophies. He was of the mind that one should operate as if there is absolutly nothing wrong with the train. I said that while we wish to live in a utopian world, these trains and signals etc. do not always work as designed. While we all want to rock and roll down the road, we do not always know what lurks around the next curve. I'm not saying that we have to crawl around from station to station but we have to be mindfull of what could be out there. As for myself, i'll never make a good witness for the TA because i've seen some wacky stuff that trains and signals are not supposed to do. And more often than not, it gets covered up and repaired. One such case is the new tower machine at Westchester Master tower. It has lined (while on automatic) to come into the terminal when there was already a train in the pocket. Potential for disaster, yes. But signal department will swear up and down that it could not have happened. And then they quietly go and try to work the bug out of the machine. This really does not make for good morale.
Law R-38, tell me more about the claimed unsafe condition at Westerchester Interlocking. Sound like a false clear with occupied track in the pocket at Pelham Bay Park under automatic terminal operation. If there was problem, it would be in the relay room and not in the machine. The machine has only lights, switches and controllers. You need to check the control line diagrams before you say it is a potential for disaster. There could be a non-vital failure in the non-vital microprocessor with the vital circuits working correctly. If so, it is a not a safety issue.
Steven Sales and the TWU are aware of the Westchester Master tower incident. Also the false clear on the Flushing line, and the false clear on the IND Queens line, and the false clears that KEEP happening on the West End Line.
More ammunition for the lawyers to hurl at each other.
Erik, what can I say? I know Tony Bartolotta and have seen TSS Hazel's work first hand and, therefore, will kep my comments to my self except to say that they are not in the same league as far as knowledge is concerned.
As for the Steven Sales incident, I don't want to rehash it here. However, I think that it's safe to say that of all the people posting on Subtalk, I was the only person who was actually there that morning. I also saw the two gentlemen from the TWU safety committee (One of them actually worked for me at one time). They saw exactly what i saw. Two things stand out:
1) When I get there, Mr. Sales train was still on the circuit and the signal was red......
2) From the position of the 10-car marker, a train operator could wrap the controller around and he'd still be going slow enough to key the signal before tripping (my opinion).
As to what actually happened, I don't know for sure. However, based on my observations it seemed certainly possible that the doors closed. Mr. Sales got his indication. Wrapped it around without checking the signal (or possibly didn't see it). And keyed the signal permitting him to pass it. As for the replacing of the signal innards, it seemed a reasonable act. First as a precaution and second beecause the NTSB would require it so that the innards could be gone over as part of the investigation.
Should Mr. Sales bare sole responsibility for the incident? Absolutely not!!! I think that the person who determined where the 10 car mark should be placed and the TSS's who didn't anticipate the danger, should bear some fault.....
Steve, I will keep my comments to myself and I don't want to elaborate on this matter however, I suggest you check with the NYCT Signal Dept. to discuss the tests they performed of the leaving signal at Steinway Street on track D2 after the incident and before the line and track case, train stop, cables and conduits were changed out at that location. I don't know how versed you are on NYCT block signaling with AC Line Controls but might I suggest you give it a look.
GOOD LUCK!!!
There are I think, two distinct issues here which both need further attention. One the technical side--where you would think that ultimately observable facts should govern. Two AND MUCH MORE critical is the culture of the organization. "Working to rule" has always been a 'legal' method for a wildcat strike/slowdown. But what this means IMHO is that the rules when reduced to basics say if there is a problem hourly--read union--employees screwed up and will be punished. This may have been okay in feudal times , but it is entirely obsolete today. Perpetuation of this adversarial and demeaning mindset is a disservice to all involved including the riders. I have no personal knowledge of the signal in question, but the point is that the distrust level must change. If personnel affirm that 'false' "clears" have been displayed, and the event can be reproduced, then we have data. And in reference to another post in this thread, if the signal shows non-occupied and one can visually confirm occupancy, the signal is lying. All the verbiage about vital and non vital notwithstanding, if there is a train on the track...
I really know very little about the workings of the signal system. I have enough trouble keeping up with the technological changes in my area. My point was that when I arrived on the scene, the signal was red. There was no false clear when I got there. As to the technical merits of this case, I defer to the experts. However, I have my doubts....
Steve,
If you have your doubts, then I respectfully submit that you too must have that "management mindset". If there have been several incidents of false clears, DOCUMENTED, then you believe that the;
Cop was lying,
The Conductor was lying,
Mr Sales was lying,
The Signal Maintainer who saw it happen AGAIN, was lying
I know that as a member of management, you must side with them. But as in the past, Steve, you defend the indefensible.
Erik, I do not side with anyone. I was not part of the investigation nor have I been asked to testify about it. I have no vested interest in the outcome of the case, whichever way it falls. I merely reported my observations and my impressions based on my limited knowledge of signals. As for a management mindset, I'm not sure what that means. Perhaps that means that I try to see both sides of an issue and then make a judgement. On the other hand, you have seem to have a TWU mentality. Management is always wrong and TWU members are always right. However, it seems to me that IF there were the volumes of evidence that you allude to, then this case would be closed and over, just like the 135th St. case. Your comments about that case would be most welcome......
To Steve (& others)...I'm not intimately familiar with the
facts in the Steinway case. But, the fact that the signal was
red when you (Steve) got to the scene neither strenghtens nor
refutes the argument of signal failure. The signal was alleged
clear (or was it yellow?) with the train in the station, clear
of the track circuit immediately beyond the signal head. The block
ahead was known to be clear, and the block beyond that was occupied
with the leading train. Since the first block was clear, the track
circuit should have been picked up. If the signal failed clear,
the most likely cause is a bad line circuit. Once the train passed
the signal, though, the track circuit would drop out and that
would put the signal to red, regardless of the line circuit state.
About the only thing that the signal being red at that point proves
is that the fault is not in the HOME relay or the signal light
wiring, both of which are highly improbable anyway. I'm sure
D. Rosenthal can verify my analysis here.
About two weekends ago- I was in Philly and took a train on the Blue Line from 30 St Station with luggage in my hands. Thinking as if I was riding the NYC subway, I thought I could maintain balance without holding on to something. But I was wrong, the train accelerated quickly and I almost lost my balance. Then the train decelerated pretty quickly as it entered the station.
Now my question...
Before the remodifications of NYCT Trains, did NYCT trains in the current fleet have the ability to accelerate more quicklythan they do today?
I remember way back when Steve Kreisler mentioned something about field shunters(?). Did that have anything to do with train acceleration?
[I thought I could maintain balance without holding on to something. But I was wrong, the train accelerated quickly and I almost lost my balance]
Was the train you were riding a Budd train (M3) or a train of the new M4 cars?
The Budds, are (and soon to be were) famous for their high rate of acceleration. The experience of ridng a train of Budds was like nothing else I've ever experienced.
Jim K.
Chicago
I was on a M-4, although the M-3's acceleration was just as high...but they are some noisy cars!
It seems that NJT MUs are somewhat punchy too - I've seen more than one fly out of Penn station. By far the punchiest thing I was ever on was the Mattapan Ashmont PCCs - they litterally throw you back into your seat when taking off.
Newark Subway PCCs can be quick too, although I've only run across a couple of operators who will run them that way. Truth be told, I'd rather a rapid, smooth acceleration than a jerky rocket launch anyway. Whiplash just isn't all that much fun. Now as to top speed and enough power to climb up a grade, pour it on!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
PCC cars will accelerate at a rate of 4.75 mph/sec. up to about 20 then it tappers off a bit. They will brake at the same rate also.
I think the subways cars will do something the the 3.2 to 3.8 mph/sec but I am not sure
I think the field shunting kicks in over 20 mph and will give a higher tip end but not faster acceleration I think some of the systems disabled the field shunting on the PCC cars also, if they did not require speeds up to 40 or 45
SEPTA removed field shunting from GOH-1 PCC rebuilds as they felt that a 25 MPH car was preferable to a 42 MPH car in current Philadelphia traffic. They quickly discovered that removing the shunting affected the braking, and reconnected the shunting, reducing the acceleration rate slightly at the limit relay. The cars didn't accelerate as quickly, but braked at the proper rate. The few PCC's still around on SEPTA won't push you back in the seat, but still move out pretty quickly.
That is the fun of riding an ALMOND JOY was the noise, plus also being thrown all over the place when they accelerated. Everyone loves the R10s for there noise!!!
I loved the R-10s for their flat out speed, especially on the express dash up CPW. The A train was, without a doubt, the quickest way to get to Harlem, in the words of Duke Ellington's immortal tune, when the R-10s ruled supreme on that line. I didn't think they were all that loud back in the late 60s. You didn't have the moaning and groaning which was associated with the R-1/9s, mainly because the R-10s had helical-cut bull and pinion gears, but there was still some gear noise.
Then there was their distinct compressor sound, their rapid doors.. heck, everything about the R-10s was fast. Their acceleration was never such that it threw you all over the place, though.
While I share your opinion, perhaps its good that we're not the ones who spec cars for new orders. I think Joe and Jane Commuter want quiet cars, with smooth acceleration.
I think that is why some Paris Metros run on rubber tyres. The acceleration is increadable and braking very smooth and progressive.
No sense in accelerating at the NYCTA -- the signals and stations keep you below 25 miles per hour anyway, except on some express runs off peak.
Is there a policy of slowing trains down in NY some posting would suggest this?
Simon
Swindon UK
New York's trains were slowed down after the Williamsburg Bridge accident in 1995. I still say it was an overreaction, IMHO. Granted, the signals on the bridge were more in step with the BMT standards than with the R-42s, but that doesn't mean the signals are the same everywhere else on the system. The express run up CPW is nothing like it used to be, even with an A train of R-38s. And if you're on a D train of R-68s, forget it. It's about as exciting as watching paint dry.
Ill agree to that. I sent in a possible solution to this problem to the employee suggestion program. I had posted the idea here at SubTalk a few months ago. Let's see if they take it. I doubt it though. It would mean NOT saving money.
Acceleration rate has not diminished, only top-end speed.
That's true, although I suspect the multisectionals could probably cause you to lose your balance if you weren't prepared. They even had "Hold on" signs everywhere.
I vivdly recall how New York subway trains would jerk as power was applied; however, it was never violent.
Well, I'm going off the Rapid Transit Topics and going in a different direction.
I was walking along Oak Point Freight Yard today, and noticed two items. Number one, renumbering of CR units has begun. I spotted B23-7s renumbered into the CSX 4000 series group. 4065 and 67 were there and they have the PRR designation. I'm inquiring into what happens after CSX has full control of CR. What happens to the locomotive assignments? I don't suppose some B23s are staying in Selkirk to NYC service do I? Will there be any other CSX locos in the area?
Number two, I spotted an oddity. Parked in Oak Point was a set of LIRR diesel coaches, in the 2700 series. I believe they are World's Fair Cars or MP75s (former electric mu's). It looks like the great purge of LIRR equipment has begun! These cars were not going to scrap otherwise they'd be in Brooklyn. I wonder who bought these cars? They're heading somewhere. Does anybody know here if any cars were brought by some small scenic railroad or museum?
-Constantine
With the Merger there have been some weird power moves with Conrail. Get the cameras out for the last pix of Conrail Quality Blue!!
Railroad & Railfan April Issue has some intresting pictures of different power on different roads because of the merger.
At least one CR unit, relettered PRR and renumbered into the CSX sequence, has been spotted on the branch from Raleigh to Henderson, NC within the last two weeks. I don't remember what number or model my son said it was, but anyway, they're already moving them around, probably under the guise of "pool power" or some such. This branch is one of CSX's "dumping grounds" for equipment on its last legs prior to going for scrap. Five years ago it was populated by unrebuilt and unrepainted Chessie System and SCL units, including GP35s and U-boats, and two slugged GP30s painted in CSX stealth grey (one mated to a Family Lines GP38(-2?) of L&N heritage, the other to a CSX yellownose GP40-2).
The NS yard, across the road, usually has relatively modern power assigned (they've even been using Dash 8-40Cs as yard switchers for the past year) so it will be interesting to see if any new CR power shows up there. Nothing has been spotted yet, as far as I know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While visiting a client, CSX in Jacksonville, florida, I noticed track maps of the former NYC & NH New York Metro lines on the board.
I did not take notice of all the maps that there were there, as there were man. However, those NY City, maps, I recognized right away.
Funny that a CR unit marked PRR was in a CSX number series - PRR on CR equipment is supposed to mean "Things NS Gets" while NYC means CSX gets it.
Anybody care to explain?
My son says it was due to "selective hearing" - something we accuse our children of but which he will accuse me of on occasion.
The Raleigh unit was marked NYC, not PRR - he didn't write the number down but thinks it was a 34xx number, EMD product.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If it was marked NYC, Then the "CSX" number was correct.
Central New York Chapter is getting 4 of the LIRR Coaches. Mid Atlantic Rail Car acquired approx. 170 cars from LIRR, We bought our 4 from Mid Atlantic. I don't know if they have any unsold cars at this point, however.
Can this company (Mid-Atlantic) really unload 170 of those beasts or did they buy them at a scrap price?
Who wants to buy them, aside from museums? Do they have any valuable parts?
Do you have any info on Mid Atlantic Rail Car? What are they going to do with those 170 LIRR cars?
-Constantine
Ken Bitten, CEO of Mid Atlantic indicated to me back in December that the cars were purchased for resale to anyone who wanted them. I don't know if he has any unsold cars left and I gave all my contact info. to our Board Of Directors so they could pursue our purchase. Furthermore, any such disclosure may violate the rules of this message board. (Perhaps Dave Pirman could provide a clarification on this matter).
I have no problem with this sort of thing. Notifications of items for sale are fine with me within reason. (I don't expect someone to post an ad for products for sale every day, for example.) As long as it's relevant to rail and/or transit by all means I think everyone's interested in this sort of thing.
I've made a mistake gentlemen... To clarify something, 4000 series B23s are FOR NS, not CSX. I made a mistake in saying the PRR units were CSX equipment. I don't know what I was thinking, I figured because I saw PRR marked units at OAK POINT, I got this crazy idea they were CSX. This tells me that loco reassignments have yet to take place at least in the NEW YORK CITY area.
So NYC is for CSX,
PRR for NS.
The same designations apply to freight cars.
-Constantine
Yesterday, I watched a special on PBS about four mega-cities, with New York among them.
In the segment concerning New York, a reference was made to Metro-North incorrectly.
"Under New York's Park Avenue lies a subway line. But when it reaches Harlem, it suddenly emerges".
With this they showed a shot of the #3 rumbling on the Broadway viaduct(filmed obviously during last year's Lenox Rehab project).
Just thought I'd mention it.
It's the same old story: many producers figure that most people wouldn't know the difference, especially if they've never been to New York, or wouldn't care.
Filmmakers assume they can take great license with location because the average viewer wouldn't know. For instance, many made-for-TV and other movies, (most recently the new Moving Tin or Pushing Tin - something like that, with John Cusack and Billy Bob Thornton) are actually filmed in Toronto even though reference is made to US cities. A seasoned Torontonian can often spot the unique streetlights the city has or the traffic signals which seem only to be found throughout Ontario. Often there are distant sightings of a Toronto streetcar passing in the background or scenes where they're driving down a street with streetcar tracks. So streetcar fans be alert! You may see one of our red rockets in a movie you thought was actually shot somewhere in the US. And for those subway scenes, the favourite location is the "lower Bay Street station" which has its wall name covered over by whatever station name the film requires.
That's exactly what they do with Hoyt-Schermerhorn - it's been disguised as a number of stations in various movies.
You're right about the streetcar tracks showing up in movies. They can be seen in the Police Academy series, among others.
Speaking of Toronto, did the rolling stock used on the Expo Express in Montreal wind up in Toronto? Someone posted recently that that line has been dismantled except for the bridges. I vivdly remember riding it during Expo 67 and subsequently when the Man and His World theme park remained.
FYI, the History Channel will be presenting a program on the NYC subway as part of its Modern Marvels series next Monday night at 10 PM. It's probably been on before - they didn't say it was a new episode - but thought I'd mention it just in case you haven't seen it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm pritty sure it is a repeat (that eye missed). The previous post said it was a good one ... Thanks for the input !
Mr t__:^)
The program was "Subway, The Empire Beneath New York's Streets" originally aired on A&E except the on-camera spots with Jack Perkins in the Transit Museum were all eliminated (more commercials???). You can find out more about this show in the resources section. Go to Transfer Station...
Bill
I have the video of that show. Jack Perkins opens it up by stepping off R-1 #100 signed up as an A, and ends it by tugging fare register cord on one of the open gate cars.
Thanks, that'll save me watching the tape I made (I have the video).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read in a local paper today that London has the largest undergroud rail system in the world. Having visited many I have always thought that The New York system was larger. I suppose it depends on which way you measure it. Number of stations, track mileage, route mileage, track above ground, or track beneath. Does anyone have all the facts and figures ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Not according to NYC transit, which claims its annual ridership is 50 percent higher (facts and figures, Official MTA website). The top 10:
Moscow 3.1 billion, Tokyo 2.7, Mexico City 1.4, Seoul 1.3, New York 1.2, Paris 1.1, Osaka 1.0, Hong Kong & London 0.8, and Sao Paulo 0.7. Now I guess we know the must visit cities for the globe trotting subway fan.
It may be that total rail ridership, including commuter rail, is higher in London. But the NYC Metro area is slightly larger and denser than greater London, and this may account for the higher NYC number. I also think London's bus ridership may be higher.
If you take total line distance, I think London wins, but if you go back total track miles, the express tracks give New York the advantage.
Thanks for the info. Just off to Moscow. Taking passenger numbers to one side is the actual size of the system ( as controlled by the trnsit authority) the overideing factor
(Size) Depends on what you mean by size. I've head that NYCTA has more cars than anyone, because (unfortunately) so much of its riderhsip is at the peaks. London certainly has more track miles, if commuter rail is included, but haven't these been parceled out to private companies? The MTA's other subsidiaries (LIRR and Metro North, along with SIRT) have a lot of tracks too. I guess you can't count New Jersey Transit for New York -- it's kind of like having Scotland just outside the London city limits, complete with barbarian raiders covered in blue paint!
I don't think you can include all railways just what is on the sbway/underground map. Although the London route mileage may be greater we don't have express running Redbirds and railfan windows. I've never seen anyone in New Jersy wearing blue paint.
(Never seen anyone from New Jersey wearing blue paint). You've never seen a war party from New Jersey attack. Like the ancient Picts of Briton, they attach wearing blue paint. Don't believe me? Try visiting Giants Stadium when there is a football game.
When I invade again in November I nmust go to an American Football Game - never seen one - is it like Cricket ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Not even close. Visit www.nfl.com and look at some of the multimedia AVI/Quicktime video. England doesn't have a sport that is a close approximation of American football.
-Dave
[England doesn't have a sport that is a close approximation of American football.]
What about rugby? There are some similarities at least.
Yes, there is some similarity to rugby in that goalposts are used. Getting the ball over the opponent's goal line is called a touchdown, while in rugby it's known as a try (tri?). American football actually evolved from soccer and came close to being banned in the early part of this century because of the extreme roughness and resulting injuries and, in some cases, fatalities.
Our game of baseball evolved from cricket.
I think synchronised swimming is the nearest. We do have Rugby (sort of American Football without the padding).
Not sure about this. As a long suffering South Londoner, travel by rail usually meant local electric services, as taking the Underground to a South London railhead followed by a bus was never much fun. Many South London services termininate inside what was the GLC area (e.g. Bromley, Orpington, West Crordon, Sutton) or only venture a couple of stations outsite the area before giving up (e.g. Dartford). Technically, these railways could fulfil the same role as the Underground north of the river, even if the managers of these lines are too half-witted to work out how to do so.
This is one of the ways in which NY totally baffles me. If the people of Dulwich (where I lived) found out that they could have their own Underground station even though it would involve selling all of their children into slavery, they would do so -- house prices would increase even more for a start. If there is mention of a Subway extension in NY to a well-to-do area, one can sense an armed uprising taking place!
(NYC middle class against subway extensions). This is a historical accident. There was a 30 year period (1950-80) when auto ownership and use was indicative of middle class status, something less educated whites in decent jobs had and most blacks did not. It was also thought that criminals could not afford cars, so those who lived in areas which were not accessible by transit were safe from them. There was some truth to that later point, at least for a while.
The demography of the city is blowing this whole thing away. Native born blacks and non-college educated whites are a shinking share of the population. College educated Americans of all races, and immigrants of all races, from just about everywhere, have taken their place. They all ride the subways, and think nothing of it. And crime is down in the city, and up in some suburbs, because criminals do have cars.
You still find a reserve of the old sentiment in neighborhoods where people who are not rich drive to Manhattan (Staten Island, parts of Eastern Queens). Those who are willing to face that expense, and that hassle, just to avoid mass transit are a dying breed. Among this crowd, a free parking space in Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn is a more important indicator of status than a Rolex watch. In fact, a City Planning study found that 1/7 of those who drive to Manhattan have a city parking permit to park on the street for free. And the allocation of parking spaces among City Council members is a more important political issue than anything we discuss on this board.
Simon,
Paul Garbutt's "World Metro Systems" published by capital transport has some excellent tables in the back which provides all the necessary information. In terms of size, NY and London are difficult to rank, I think that NY wins on stations, London on track. In terms of passengers, NY wins, but divide passengers per year by the number of stations (a measure of how well used a system is) and NY loses, but by this measure, the Western systems pale into insignificance compared with Moscow.
Max Roberts
Simon, what's the story with the new Jubilee Line and the CBTC system. Is London Transport using CBTC or block signalling on that line?
Jubilee line extension from Green Park to Stratford is now in operation between Stratford and North Greenwich with test running taking place daily. Empty stock moves take place between Stratford and the "old" Jubilee line when engineering possessions are not in force.
Opening to public use between Stratford and North Greenwich is expected any time now although the complete "new" section (which will see Charing Cross no longer served by Jubille line) is some way away!!
The opening between Stratford and North Greenwich is taking priority due to iy serving the new Millenium Dome tourist attraction.
Signals.....
Hmm conventional Block signalling in use with trainstops at present
.
Regards
Rob :^)
The original plan called for transmission based signalling (which would offer 36 trains per hour) for the entire line (the Stanmore to Green Park section as well as the extension).Problems ,however, were encountered in getting the system to work on the extension,therby forcing London Underground to install conventional block signalling(which offers about 24 trains per hour) .These problems along with a whole host of others have resulted in the opening of the entire extension being put back to late '99-very close to the opening of the Millenium Dome.
Rob, what is going to happen to the Charing Cross branch.
Simon
Swindon UK
not sure really, Station is served by NORTHERN,BAKERLOO and National
rail services so no "closure" as such. The tracks from Green Park to the tunnel end (some distance beyond the station) will be retained in situ (like the Aldwych Branch).
Hmmm
I wonder if they could exhibit some preserved stock like the NYCTransit museum does in the old Schermerhorn St station....???
any thoughts !!
Rob :^)
I think the number of poeple who travel via the Jubilee at the moment to Charing Cross are going to be a bit upset at going back to the Bakerloo.
Simon
Swindon UK
The branch is definitely going to close, but will be preserved in working order for special services-whatever they may be. I think there is cross-platform interchange at Baker Street, and so the abandonment will not be too painful. For people who need Charing Cross Suburban trains, I have always felt that Waterloo East is a better place to pick up the trains anyway. There is only two platforms to choose from, one for Suburban, the other for Main Line.
The Charing Cross stub of the Jubilee Line would make an excellent basis for a new cross-London tube. Run it to Knightsbridge, High Street Kensington and Olympia in the west, and then down to Acton Town, and take over the Uxbridge branch of the Piccadilly Line, which can then focus on airport traffic. In the East, either take it to Liverpool Street and on to Seven Kings, or up to Moorgate, and take back the Moorgate-Finsbury park line (its link to BR suburban services was not a success).
Plenty of food for thought. I do not think Waterloo East is a better station than CC. One a cold days the wind is ferocious. From my own observations The number of customers using CC is considerable. Put them on the Bakerloo and things will start to get a little crowded. I expext that LT has done it's sums though.
Simon
Swindon UK
I guess it all depends on what you are at Charing Cross for. If you want a specific train and a seat, then that is the best station. I have only ever used these lines to get to London Bridge. To do this, you need to check the board for the next train making sure that the train really does stop at London Bridge, once you have found the platform (a choice of six) check the time to make sure that there is enough to run to the right platform. At Waterloo East, just go to the suburban platform and take the first appropriate train.
I think you are right, the Bakerloo Line to Charing Cross will become overcrowded (I get the impression that LT wanted the Chelsea-Hackney Line, not the JLE). Plus, it is a very long walk because the Bakerloo Line station at Charing Cross is really at Trafalgar Square. If comfort rather than time is the priority, it would be better to get the Jubilee Line to Waterloo and then the Northern Line upwards. If you get a train starting from Kennington then it will be empty. I guess that would add about five minutes to the journey.
Correction, the NYCT Transit Museum is the Court Street Station.
Someone got hit and killed by a MARTA train this morning at the North Avenue Station. Service was temporarily suspended south of Arts Center to Five Points on the North Line. New York City is not the only place where this happens.
Can anyone speak to MARTA's ridership? In terms of census data, Atlanta sticks out like a very sore thumb. It has a subway, and yet it only had 100,000 working Downtown in 1990, and only 20 percent of them used mass transit. Other subway cities had 200,000+. It seems that if the Jimmy Carter line was intended to give Atlanta a big time central business district, it didn't work, at least as of 1990. An expensive failure, and yet Atlanta is choking on traffic.
Is development moving Downtown to take advantage of MARTA, or is it still fleeing north across the moat to Newtville?
MARTA is not a failure in fact it is the exact oppose.
I have an article from the 1910's regarding cab signaling on the BRT using AB Standards. The system is cab signal with overspeed protection use a mechanical governor, several plungers to come in contact with track side devices for the various speed commands and a aspect display unit in the center post of the cab to right. It actually existed but didn't go into wide spread use.
More details! PLEASE?
When I have a chance I will provide more details.
The Continental Airlines metroCard returns! As of 7am on 4/26/1999 it will be available at these stations:
96--1/2/3/9
86--1/9
86--4/5/6
79--1/9
77--6
72--1/2/3/9
72--B/C
66- 1/9
47-50--B/D/F/Q
50-- 1/9
50-- C/E
23--1/9
23--C/E
18--1/9
Union Square--4/5/6/L/N/R
Chambers--1/2/3/9
Wall Street-- 2/3
Wall Street--4/5
SOURCE: Official AFC Bulletin
I do not know if it will be a new design or a rerun of previous desings
According to my handy-dandy poster:
- April 98 = 100,000 "Work Hard, Fly Right"
- Sept. 98 = three other cards, 2 @ 60K
"Our Priorities Are Simple, They're Yours"
"Want The World ? We're Selling Tickets"
and one at 80K "It's How You'd Run An Airline"
Mr t__:^)
I have not seen the latest version so I dont know if it is a new slogan or a "re-run" of a previous slogan. The bulletins also do not tell us how many cards were/will be printed. They only tell us that there will or will not be further deliveries or if delivery si a one-time delivery. The continental airline cards are a one time delivery while the board of ed cards will have two additional deliveries.I have not seen the Board of Ed card so I don not know what the promo is but based on posters seen in subway cars I **think** it is a promo to get people to teach in NYC schools--in other words "Teach NYC".
As I get more info I will post additional info.
I was told by a friend in the NYPD about an incident at DeKalb some years ago that was very similar to the action and details depicted in 'Homicide'.
I think it was this one show that got the series an Emmy award?
There was a very interesting behind-the-scenes documentary about this episode aired on CourtTV on last Monday night (called "Anatomy of a Homicide"). They showed how the subway cars were modified to provide a space for Vincent D'onofrio's character to fall into. I won't spoil it anymore. Quite interesting.
-Dave
It was all filmed at the Johns Hopkins station in Summer 1997. The south end of the station was signed as "Inner Harbor" and a MTA supplied sign advised passengers what was actually happening. The actual filming was done on a Sunday, as we don't operate then.
That documentery originally aired on PBS (WNET in New York) they actually made a mold of the side of one of the cards, and used some extra sheetmetal to make a piece that would appear to be part of the car, but actually fit in the gap between the cars. If you know what to look for, you can spot the fakery.
-Hank
I was visiting the city last week and riding the F heard references to some "fire" at bergen street, which was restricting the G line to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. There also looked like there was a new model board in the Bergen Street Tower, judging by the fine wood trim not present on ANY of the other boards I've seen, and the huddle of workers constantly huddled around it. What was the nature of the fire? How are the crosstown line trains turning now. (I'm guessing they didn't re-open Court Street! ;-)
Dave Barraza
The signal machine burned a couple of few weeks ago. The switch has been locked in place, with F trains going through. The G is being turned around at Bedford, with a shuttle to Hoyt Schemerhorn. The TA said it could take two weeks to get back to normal, but it now seems like it might be just a few more days.
I saw the new machine last night as I rode through, and it did look pretty nice.
Normal service is scheduled to begin at 8:00 PM Sunday 4/18.
Could someone tell me is it true that New York City had a subway fleet of about 7000 cars at one time?
In July of 1968, the NYCT fleet was 7,244 cars strong. This was a transition period. The oldest cars (AB, Q, R-1, R-4, Lo-V) were being phased out and newer (R40, R40M, R42) cars were being phased in, so both old and new cars are in this count.
Here's where we currently stand, give or take a few cars:
R26 - 110
R28 - 100
R29 - 232
R32 - 590
R33 - 528
R36 - 424
R38 - 196
R40 - 292
R40M- 100
R42 - 390
R44 - 276
R46 - 752
R62 - 320
R62A- 825
R68 - 425
R68A- 200
R130- 6
R131- 10
Total: 5776.
Note that since the advent of the 75-foot car in 1972, it takes eight cars to do the same work that ten cars used to do, a 20% differential.
The 1653 75-foot cars we now have would equate to 1983 60-foot cars.
Wayne
Walter Matthau makes a reference to the fleet consisting of 7,000 cars in the original Pelhan 1-2-3 while escorting the directors of the Tokyo subway system. Did the fleet still in fact include that many cars in the early 70s? I wouldn't be surprised if that was indeed the case.
It's not only the 75' footers. The TA's maintainence has seen light year improvements. I remember when I first started at the 207th Street Overhaul Shop in March of 1986. That place was teeming with men crawling over, under and in cars that were there for heavy repairs. None for any scheduled or preventative work.
Nowadays the place feels like a ghost town in an old western movie. Why? Because all the GOH and new cars see regular maintainence, and rarely break down. And as such the TA was able to reduce the size of the fleet, and reduce costs.
I don't feel they should have reduced quite as much as they did though. The R30 GE cars that reccieved new propulsion gear and some other work should have been retained. Even if only mothballed. We see now the consequences of TA's shortsightedness, overcrowding, and such. There would be less pressure on RTO and especially CED if those cars were around today. But, alas the poor beasts had no air conditioning.
would it have been possible to retrofit the R-30's with air conditioning? if so, why were they scrapped?
Go back up a few threads, you'll get the explanation...
-Hank
Where can I find the R130 and R131's?
Wayne was being "technical"... these are more commonly known as the R110A and R110B.
-Dave
Technical as in:
R110A and R110B were the design contract numbers. R130 and R131 were the build contracts. Being as they were 'melting pot' designs, the 110 stuck.
-Hank
We've been talking about failure rates- how do the R127 and R134 (The EP work motors) hold up as far as MDBF?
MDBF for revenue cars is computed by dividing the miles traveled for a given period by the number of 'charged' delays for that same time period. Unfortunately, the milage used to compute MDBF is 'revenue' milage. Since work motors accrue no revenue miles, they technically have no MDBF.
Yes, but they could simply substitute the miles the R127 and R134 spend working for the miles other cars spend transporting passengers.
Would that produce an accurate figure?
Wayne
OK. Is there any reliability measure for these cars--are they lemons or are they reliable?--are they on the road or in the shops
Don't know about reliability, but the manufactuerer should tell you something=KHI Kawasaki.
As I have said a few months back, those cars can RUN. They still have full power, and FULL BRAKING like the good old days. Damn things will do 60 flat out without breaking a sweat. That's why TA had to issue a bulletin mandating a 45 MPH limit at all times with them.
Light car with 520HP and 80 PSI brake cylinder, as opposed to heavy car with only 400, and 32! Thoroghbreds, indeed.
The people in RTO have the most leverage of all the employees at the TA. Mnagement knows this. This is why they fear us, and hold us in utter CONTEMPT!.
We have the power to cause Superintendents and senior management to loose their jobs. Except for the Bus Drivers, no other group of employees has quite that degree of power.
Again, management knows this. In the past 10 or so years they have taken steps to check that power. By deliberately trying to hire as many people as possible with a limited education, and bleak job prospects. People who if they lost this job tommorow, would be asking "Fries with that?"
Giving them jobs that pay more than they could EVER make on their own, with benifits they had never even dreamed of. They created a culture of dependency. How could any of these people afford to strike? They NEED the TA. They will behave like the good children we want them to be.
Then by creating an atmosphere whereby all employees mistrust and fear management (see my posting on what happenened to Steve Sales) and training being reduced to bare minnimum, a wage progression scale that takes many years, a disciplinary process that punishes SEVERLY for the most minor of infractions, things that on say the LIRR wouldn't even merit notice......
The TA has finally got what it has wanted, almost. Yes OPTO is almost there, but there is one more insult to throw at us. The creation of one title for both the RTO operating jobs. Giving management the freedom to assign personnel as THEY see fit.
We are now all easily replacable. It takes upto 15 months to get an engineers certificate. TA trains Moto--TrainOperators in LESS than six! In the most complex and demanding operating enivornment in the world! It used to be a year in the yard. What happened? The subway system hassn't gotten any simpler?
Do you think this wassn't planned? Management want's docile fools running the trains. And if you make trouble, they want to replace you as quickly as possible.
And all those new Train Service Stupidvisors? Contract time is comming. And Management is ready.
Wake up all you operating people, and realize the evil empire that you work for! Satan trully does run the TA!
If you don't believe me, look for yourself! The proof is in the history. Look rail fans, how they tampered with the brakes to save MONEY, endangering the public. When they got caught after a man had DIED, they covered the problem with another money saving (the holy grail at 370) trick, they slowed our favorite trains down! Do you really believe that the extra SIXTY horse power made THAT MUCH difference? Or that the few extra tons of A/C did either?
Don't they pay engineers to know the difference?
THEY KNEW!
SATAN TRULLY HAS TAKEN OVER THE TA!
That post is ridiculous.
The fact is that yes, train and bus operating personnel are important. But they are also well paid. And I doubt you'll find many organizations where the people doing the work earn so much relative to the people at the top. Not in this economy.
And yes, train operator is a job where you sit there all day but you absolutely have to show up on time and absolutely can't make a mistake. I understand that it isn't easy to keep concentration. But easy jobs pay less.
People are never satisfied. The people who run the train almost certainly earn more, on average, than those who ride them. When people clearing tables at restaurants say they have it tough, I'll take it more seriously.
Erik, from your background, you should know that the LIRR is far more punative then the TA is. On the LIRR, what is the penalty for a speed infraction? What about passing a stop signal- especially in AMTRAK territory? What happens to a LIRR engineer if his drivers license gets suspended? What happens to a LIRR Conductor or engineer if he can't draw every track, every switch, every station capacity of all eleven branches?
We both know what happens. And they don't go back to their former title either, like the TA does. As for the 'Evil Empire' you work for, perhaps you should go back and check your history. I have the 'schedule of working conditions' for 1941 and for 1953. Perhaps you should take a look at them and see the gains that have been made. In the mast, you've posted some informative messages but this one is starting to sound like ravings of an anti-management zealot.
Sorry Erik - No Sale here
The infractions you mention are not LIRR or Amtrak violations, the're FRA violations, and the RR has NO choice in the matter.
What happened at 135? I'll admit I'm not omnipotent.
PS
When you take the rules, and the P.C. exams, you're given time to study, and classes to take. After passing and working the job for 3 years, you re take the exams. If you too dumb to pass it the second time, then you deserve to be fired. Even I, a union man will agree to that.
I wouldn't want to be out between BH and AG on the Montauk branch wondering if a crew on an opposing INFERIOR train had really passed their rules exam!
But for your every day type infraction,late, sick time etc. or even for more serious things, (except FRA violations) the RR is far more leneint.
I saw switches split, Cars sideswiped, and engines derailed, where the crews recieved slaps on the wrist. Try that at TA!
If you think transit working conditions are bad, consider what most people face in the private sector. Except for unionized jobs, which are a diminishing part of the private sector, most workers are what are known as "at-will" employees. That means they can be fired at any time for any or no reason. If you've been a loyal, hardworking employee for 20 years, but the boss has an idiot cousin who needs a job, you're gone in a flash - and unless you can prove some sort of discrimination, such as age or gender, you have no legal recourse whatsoever.
And if the Transit Authority gets there hands on the titles of "Train Worker" thats exactly what it will be like as the TA is already firing many and turnover rates in all titles is rather high than a few years ago.
Well as an "at-will" employee in a non-transit industry, I say: good! Why shouldn't the TA get rid of people who deserve to be let go? I don't have any such protection in my industry, so I have to work hard, do a good job, get good reviews, and keep the people that I support on my side. Why should people need a union (or tenure system) to protect them? The only people who should be worried about getting fired are those who just aren't qualified or putting in the necessary effort.
As a Department of Buses employee I know of many including myself who drove buses for a living in the private sector before driving for NYCT. And those who did are very grateful for NYCT despite its faults because we know there could be a whole lot worse namely the companies we gladly left to work for NYCT. I know the same cannot be said for RTO employee's since there is only one subway system in town. However as a supervisor I see the worst of the worst which is a very small percentage but who stick out the most and make the good look bad.
Exactly
I feel bad for the fools who can't or won't follow the rules or show up regularly. I frequently have to defend them. But it's true that many of them should be fired, they make things harder on those of us who do our jobs right. Subway buff, Harry, Pelham Bay Dave, Alex (Mr. Roadeo winner) and others. It's not so much the working conditions or the salary that I decry, but the disrespect and the two-fold increase in our workload that goes with out thanks.
Thanks for the Complment. Yesterday the point was proven how some people don't deserve to be in transit. There was a General Order in effect with all No.1 trains deverting to the Express from 72 St to Times Square. So Following the rulebook I went 10 MPH over the Switch which is a good rule. I had 3 cars over and I hear my follower on the No.3 Train yelling over the radio move faster your too slow! So I atemped to call control Center but no answer. Times Sqaure tower responded but didn't say nothing after stating my message. As I toke the switch back to the Local South of times Square. The Tower and T/O on the No.3 Train was Joking about me being too slow over the switches. Ofcause T/O who think they can take a switch like straith track are dead wrong and have no business operating a train. This can cause Injury to the riders and a Derailment.
thats how I get my bills paid. BTW they can't write that up as the definition of rule 40 (restricted speed) states 'not to exceed 10 mph'. Excellent work!
The rule in Question is 39g.
As a motor instructor (or train service stupidvisor as Mr Dina refers to us (talk about respect)) keep following the rules, don't be pressured by some of our unthinking bretheren and when someone bitches about you going slow over the switches on the radio(or otherwise) just ignore them, they are not worth the effort.
I was not really presured by it I just wish after 5 calls to Control at 72 Street they would have answered but did not. That Train Operater on the 3 Line musthave been more concerned on how fast he can get to New Lots Ave then safety on his riders. Ofcause that only gets you a trip to Laber Relations and a cut in the Running Time and jobs eliminated. Beside your getting payed by the hour not how fast you go.
So, let me get this straight,Busdrivers go along with the T.A and T.W.U. giveback policies because they are grateful to have a job.Very interesting.I guess the drivers are voting for the $60 tax T.W.U. wants. Thumbs down to busdrivers.
[Well as an "at-will" employee in a non-transit industry, I say: good! Why shouldn't the TA get rid of people who deserve to be let go? I don't have any such protection in my industry, so I have to work hard, do a good job, get good reviews, and keep the people that I support on my side. Why should people need a union (or tenure system) to protect them?]
I suppose the lack of labor mobility might be cited as a justification for NYCT's job protection. Most workers in private industry - I'll fully admit there are exceptions - have at least a reasonable ability to go elsewhere if they're unjustly booted out of their jobs. But subway workers have no place else to go, unless they relocate to one of the relatively few other cities with rail transit.
For that you would have to get rid of the civil service system as we know it and then you would have a bigger problem. No one would be qualified or compelled to take a job at NYCT. Do you think that an engineer making $27 an hour at LIRR would take a ten dollar an hour pay cut to work here? Would you take a chance hiring ANYONE not knowing if your rush hour trains will be staffed on time? Civil service IS an equal opportunity employer as the ones who pass the test highest are the one who get the job. Right Eric? Many railroad engineers have been developed from our rank and file. All most workers reading this would not have their jobs if it wasn't for their list numbers. How many out their would get hired off the bat by NJT, Metro North or the LI? Most won't hire because of their driver's Licence infractions or subjects of minor scrutiny. The unions in the transportation industry will never go away because of the salaries and politics involved such as the UAW, the airline pilots ass. and others.
(Turnover rate is higher)
Turnover is always higher in an up economy, as workers find alternatives available. Also, the Lindsay retirement exodus cleaned out the TA 35 years ago. The employees hired at the time must be on their way out about now, raising turnover.
I visited the Brooklyn waterfront area today by Bush Terminal and the place looks like a ghost town. Is CHRR still operating? I even noticed what looks like track removal in progress at the facility.
BTW, the CHRR/SBK interchange yard at 39th and 2nd is still undergoing reconstruction. However, a good portion of the yard is now being used to house a fleet of NYCT buses of the RTS type.
Just thought I'd post to see if anyone else has more info on the above items.
Doug aka BMTman
[I visited the Brooklyn waterfront area today by Bush Terminal and the place looks like a ghost town. Is CHRR still operating? I even noticed what looks like track removal in progress at the facility.]
Stock in NYRR (CHRR's parent) is still being traded, the lastest closing price being 14.5 cents per share. The latest news release I could find is the one from late January, annoucing Rober Crawford's resignation as president. So they don't seem to have found a replacement yet. No recent news concerning operating agreements or anything to that effect.
I love this little railroad. I hate what has happened to it.
The type of people who have come to run it in the past few years have taken what used to be a fun and exciting place to work and made it into a place of fear, and confrontaion. I aplologize if I come of as a zealot of the TWU, but I have a strong sense of justice, and mostly because of the goings on here. Read carefully the postings I have put up in the past few days, see what I mean.
Yes there are some of my co-workers who are lazy, and we are well paid. But we are also treated with contempt by both our passengers and our employer. Anger comes from fear, and we come to dislike what we fear. This is the circle, vicious as it is, that is the labor management relationship as it stands today.
Yes, it's true, we as conductors our our own worst enemy. The guys who instead of working the platform on the WAA tme are up stairs watching TV. The cleaner who leaves trash behind. The CME who ty-wraps a bundle of wire like spaghtti. I tend to lash out some times and try to lay the blame entirely on the 13th floor. I shouldn't. Don't get mad at a dog for biting. Get mad at yourself for petting a mad dog.
The management at the TA could consider themselves very good at what they do. After all there are record "profits" for the last few years. Productivity is up. The MDBF is WAY up.
But the flip side of the fare card is that employee morale is LOW, and our salaries are behind what other rail carriers in the area earn.
The level of rage I encounter on a daily basis from my fellow crews is like I have never seen on ANY of the other RR's that I have worked on. People genuinely HATE working here(in RTO) but because of the reasons I out lined in"Why RTO people get screwed" 99.9% have no other option but to stay. The motivated ones wil take promotions, but the majority stay as the typical disgruntaled Transit worker so often typified in popular lore.
So again, if I come off as zealous, then good. I'm doing m job reperesenting my members.
Management's job is also to provide service. I think they have become so focused on efficiency, that they have lost sight of the fact that people run these trains. God forbid I have to use the bathroom after the train has left the terminal. They may have to be reminded that although they run the TA. WE run the trains and busses.
Thoughts, anyone?
We only 'miss the point' because this isn;t the place to cpmplain about how management runs things. I'm tired of reading threads about how 'the bus drivers are screwing the RTO people' and how 'management only likes to screw RTO' and 'no one likes working here' and other union, management, and employee propaganda campaigns. If you don't like it, FIND ANOTHER JOB, and GO TO IT! If you can't work elsewhere, or don't want to, either work within your own system to change things (ie, post your complaints to a TA or union sponsered forum, or SHUT UP and DO THE JOB.
-Hank
great post, Hank!!! No person forcesd anyone to work for their current employer. If they are so unhappy let them find a job where they can be happy- I was in a dead-end job before I started working for transit and I enjoy my job and I have a future. I am now bringing home more than I did in my last job. Sure- there are things I would like to change but employers are also human just like you and me. All of us have imperfections- I sure do. Instead of griping here- try to bring about change to enhance the quality fo worklife for your fellow employees!
Hank--WRONG-some of us appreciate the window into the 'human' side of the ops. I have enough interest in the subway system to both want to know about worker gripes, baking rates, signal aspects, and hopes for the Second System before I push up roses. Do I agree with Erik--or ANYONE on all matters? no but then, I am no paragon of knowledge. I will say that the adversarial point of view is obsolete and counterproductive for EVERYONE. But having worked 'at will' for genuine hemorrhoids, I have sympathy. In turn the common "libertarian-computer drone" point of view simply does not reflect the reality of the vast majority of the working class in this country. The options just aren't there. BTW I comment to all a pair of articles in the washpost 13 days ago by Don Phillips(go to washpostsearch by author) They are about the pending NS takeover of much of Conrail. NS has a rep as "nazi's from Norfolk" about discipline. NS typically has the lowest # of reported accidents, BUT the scuttlebutt is that there is tremendous pressure not to report them when they do occur. Do I have personal knowledge? No but a group of employees apparently picketed the award ceremony in recent years to make the point.
I don't think too many of the TAXPAYERS here give a damn about the chronic internal labor-management squabbles of the MTA. Transit workers have a pretty good deal (at public expense) when you include benefit and pension plans.
Pension: yeah sure. We pay for our own pension from our paychecks . The city, state & MTA don't contribute a penny.
I tend to agree but to a point. As a public employee (and also as management), I can see how some folks enjoy doing their jobs and others enjoy taking advantage of every protection there is to avoid doing their jobs. Unfortunately, the public will always focus on the latter group and classify the entire lot of us as bums, drones, etc. What we have to realize these days is a different political mindset, which is that contract employees can be brought in to "privatize" and operate services much cheaper. This is happening. Thus, the message is that the days of wine and roses are long gone. If the workers don't produce, politicos will respond to the voters and find ways to get the job done cheaper. Are there dangers in this? Of course, but will anyone ever see this (as they're blinded by cost savings)?
As a public employee, I try to do my best in whatever I'm asked to do. I always like to think that those under me are motivated in the same fashion. Realistically, I know that isn't the general case. I can still hope...
The message is that do what you do and do it well or find something else to do. Or maybe someone will find it for you...
One of the gripes here is maniacal punishment for petty rules infractions. Here is my view on the subject. It seems to be that rule-based mud wrestling is an inherent feature of corporate bureaucracy meets union bureaucracy.
Unions try to get in writing the minimum amount of worker workers must do in exchange for their pay, and to negotiate that minimum down as low as possible. One workers have tenure, the only way managers can get them to do anything is by enforcing rules. So you have continual nitpicking on both sides.
In most human organizations you have off the books give and take. People work harder that they have to out of pride. Managers help workers get time off when they need it and stay employed out of human concern. In a union management war, however, workers doing a good job are betraying the cause (we can make them put another man on that!). Managers doing workers a favor are practicing favoritism.
The worst of all -- the Post Office. No wonder postal employees got off and start shooting people every now and then.
I know of another organization where they can't fire you for doing a bad job, or doing nothing, but they can fire you for violating the rules. So when they want to get rid of someone, they do a managment equivalent of a by-the-book strike and document every minor deviation for a few months, and they fire someone for that reason.
At the TA, many managers are also unionized and have a right to their job. In the private sector, a power hungry jerk who hurt morale would get canned. Where my wife works, those without the human touch are moved to "special projects." At the TA, they can just stay there.
I met a couple of real winners in my time there, people who curse and throw things, rip down union banners, etc. Meanwhile, one guy (in surface) who everyone respected refused promotions to management because a) he didn't want the hassle of the battles and b) with overtime gone he would have earned less. Fortunately, I worked with a good group in Materiel.
One wonders if all this rule based nitpicking is good for anything. It doesn't make anyone happy, but unions typically don't want people happy. They want them angry at management. Even at City Planning, all our union (DC 37) does is complain about the working conditions. I'll bet if some of you TA guys saw the nice building we worked in, you'd laugh in their face. Those who aren't under indictment yet have to justify the $600 per year somehow.
"At the TA, many managers are also unionized and have a right to their job"
First of all, very few TA managers belong to the union simply because the TA does not recognize it as a legitimate bargaining agent and the 'union' does not have PERB status.
Now, for Erik, Bill, Harry and even Subway Buff (who does not complain), let me give you my take on this issue. This is exactly the way I explain it to the Shop Chairman in my location.
The New York City Transit and The Transport Workers Union (and the other related unions) have negotiated a collective bargaining agreement. At it's heart is a book of rules and numerous policies. I am sometimes accused of being petty because I enforce all provisions of the contract equally. At that point, I simply ask which provisions of the contract they would rather I not enforce. Then I simply ask for a quid pro quo . For example, if you don't want to abide by Section 2.6 (which deals with Sick Leave and penalties for abusing sick leave), how about it if I ignore the section that covers your vacation? If you want me to forego the discipline process, how about it if I disregard your pick rights? Or your negotiated salaries?
The trouble is, the Collective Bargaining Agreements cut about 51% to 49% in favor of management but the unions have agreed to it. But regargless of the ratios, it's simply niave of the unions to expect me, as a manager to simply disregard some provisions of the contract (which empower me) and live up to provisions of the contract that favor labor.
To Erik, Harry, & Bill, If the contract called for me to give away the store, I would, but it doesn't. It calls for YOU as well as me to abide by the contract. It is in your interest to see that the contract is followed to the letter because that's all the protection you have. If it's weakened in any way, it is weakened in total.
As a taxpayer, and thinking about something Steve said earlier, I'd like to see an MTA website with the salary, responsibility, and annual attendance record of every employee from Reuter on down. People could make up their own minds about who is and is not earning their keep. I'll bet just being posted there way below all the other workers would change some people's behavior.
Wouldn't be such a bad idea at City Planning either. A few years ago we were all put under the special scrutiny of an "absence control plan" because too many sick days were taken. Not by me, but I got the hassles all the same.
Larry, while I acan't give you everyone's info, here's mine as an example.
Conductor - responsible for the safety of all customers on my train, as well as the on-time performance of said train. I work a vacation relief job, so my tour can change every week from Am to Pm to Midnight. As long as I have a minimum of 10 hrs between tour changes I'm fit for duty, even though travel time can sometimes run to 2.5 hrs each way, leaving me 5 hours of sleep if I do it in my uniform.
Current Salary - $14.1675/hr ($1133.40/ 2 wk pay period). Aside from normal taxes, I also pay for my own long term diability policy, union dues, and my own pension ( more than what TA pays into it). Medical is covered by my wife's paid plan, since it is so much better better than our free one.
Attendance - This year I was out once for two days with the flu. If I had been out for one day more, I would have needed a signed doctor's note explaining why (for comparision, my high school gave us 5 days before we needed a note), that was dated from the first day of my illness. Sick time leaves us tied to the house, since TA can call or visit while we are out to make sure we really are sick.
I know that this doesn't speak for all employees, so consider it as an example. For other examples, I know one TO who had a vacation day request turned down by the crew office. His reason for wanting the day -- it was his wedding. Makes for great morale, doesn't it?
(TO turned down for a vacation day for his wedding).
That exactly the kind of stupid, chicken-shit stuff that goes on in the public sector, and in certain other unionized environments. You give someone good pay, good benefits, and a responsible, interesting job. Then you screw them because under the 1000 contract rules, you can, and you end up with lousy morale anyway. There are very few organizations in which that would ever happen unless it was a last minute thing where someone asked for a day off tomarrow and there would be no way to replace them.
Perhaps the TWU should try to get rid of job tenure for supervisors.
Once again, I must point to the contract. In the division of subways, the CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreement) allows for 16% of any work unit to be on vacation on any given day (except for RCIs who are permitted just 10%).
Now on it's face, I'd agree that denying a person their wedding day off is poor management and I'm quite sure that there was more to it than that. Most people know their wedding day several weeks (if not months) in advance so that should not have been a problem unless it was a last minute thing following a drunken binge. I will say that I try to accommodate all my employees with their vacation needs. We are even permitted to exceed quotas on holidays, if necessary. However, You would not believe the number of requests I get for holidays like "Good Friday" on the Wednesday before. It seems to me that if the holiday were that important, people would put in for that day several weeks in advance. In this and cases like it, I feel no guilt in denying the day to those inconsiderate employees.
Steve;
The RTO crew office allows AVA requests to be submitted NO MORE that 30 days in advance. 31 days, and they send it back to you. So no matter how long YOU may know of your plans, if your request is at the 43 position in the pile as opposed to the 42, well then you ain't getting the day. 30 days advance notice or not, it's first come, first serve. Like it or not, that's the contract, cold and unfeelng as it may be.
I agree with you on that point.
If I really want a day, I go to the crew office in person, 30 days in advance, and make sure my request is a the top. For the poor guy who could't get his wedding, he should have done the same. This is a buracracy, and as such we all have to live with it. But it could be made a little friendlier. I believe you try to do that, shame you don't run the crew office though......
And, Erik, I agree with you. There should be give and take on both sides, especially in unusual circumstances - like a wedding.
Where I work, employees have the freedom to take days pretty much when they want to, within the limits of their vacation and holiday time. As a courtesy, they are expected to provide management with "reasonable advanced notification" when they will be doing so, and most of the folks who work for me do. In return, I will provide similar notification to particular employees when I need to have them on premises for a meeting, and I will not intentionally schedule a meeting requiring a particular employee on a date when I know they are planning to be unavailable. However, those who regularly fail to provide me with such notification will see the effects of it when it comes time for their annual performance review, since not being on premises when they are expected can affect the ability of others to do the job they are being paid to do. Ultimately, if an employee continues to fail to provide proper notification, their performance review will be affected to the point where termination can occur.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
With transit operations (and I don't know where you work) it is different. Every day, I am responsible for putting out 50 F trains, 22 E trains, 27 R trains and 12 G trains every morning. That's 111 trains every day. If I do not have adequate staffing, one or more of those trains may not be pre-inspected, or cleaned or there just may not be enough cars (I need 916 of them)for full service. Each missing train represents up to 3,000 people at any given time who must squeeze onto other trains. Therefore, I must control the number of people off on any day. So if it sounds harsh when I say I must hold my employees to the contract that they have approved, this is why.
I know exactly what Steve is talking about.
I work in the quasi-private (not-for-profit that operates under contract to several Towns) sector as the General Manager for an ambulance service. We are responsible for operating a certain number of ambulances each day based on volume.
If I permit too many paramedics to take time off, then we have to drop a crew. If this happens, response times are lengthened. When response times are lengthened, people die.
While no one (other than a poor TA employee on a platform or on the train who meets the angered commuters!) will die if a single train is canceled, it will still inconvience many, many people.
So how have we worked around the problem? Our time off request rules are simple:
1. Give me 3 weeks notice.
2. If you fail to give me 3 weeks notice, find your own coverage (without OT).
Chip
I spoke with a benefits consultant a year or so ago (trying to get an explanation of the federal benefits survey). He said that private sector companies are dumping the whole sick time/vacation time thing, so you get around the whole dishonest cat and mouse game and everyone is treated the same. Moreover, management makes the workforce responsible for filling out the shift, with bonuses or penalties for the group. You work out a schedule ahead of time, but you can always take time if you can get someone to trade shifts or hours.
Steve, I have no problem being held to the letter of the contract. What I expect from management is to hold EVERYONE to the same letter. None of this playing favorites stuff that happens at some terminals. If the same person who you've known for years is always late, cut his time as fast you cut mine for being late once in two years (and not even late enough to miss the interval). If the supplement calls for my crew to get a drop, give it to me even though I'm new and the TO only has 4 years years; don't swap it for another crew with more seniority that doesn't want to maketheir trip. Crew office requires 30 days notice to request an AVA day. If I hand in my request at 0001 30 days before my requested day off, why don't I get the day and someone who hands it in later does?
While I don't know how widespread this is, The A division does suffer from these problems and it is the cause for much dissension there, because Management doesn't follow the rules they want us to follow.
I do exactly that but unfortunately, there are some supervisors as well as managers who do as you say. They do a dis-service to their title and themselves. This past week, a 7-year supervisor in the division of Car Equipment was demoted for taking that practice to an extreme. I would suggest that every hourly employee who feels that they are not being dealt with on a level playing field, do two things.
First - talk to your supervisor and tell them that you feel that you are not being treated fairly or equally. Give them an opportunity to explain their actions.
Second- if you are not satisfied, document the alleged injustice and take it to the Policy Compliance division of Labor Relations. they will investigate.
Steve?
Are you talking about the MS at Concourse who demanded that Provisional and probationary car inspectors buy him lunch and other goodies,OR ELSE. I hear he threatened to write up(falsely)any one of those people who didn't.
I understand he's pending dismissal. But what I can't understand is why aren't the discipline notices he's filed suspect. Labor relations is upholding all the charges he's filed. Now THAT"S WRONG!
But I should't be surprised with some thing like that from the evil empire.
MTA=Resistance is FUTILE!
Sadly, this brings me to reiterate a point I made some months ago.
Middle managers need to be respectful of the people who work for them. If they aren't, the customers suffer since they are the only place for the frustration to be vented. If you want respect - you give it. Those people need to represent their subordinates to the real decision makers, and not just be a human sewer pipe to pass the s--t down to the rank and file.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
[Now on it's face, I'd agree that denying a person their wedding day off is poor management and I'm quite sure that there was more to it than that. Most people know their wedding day several weeks (if not months) in advance so that should not have been a problem unless it was a last minute thing following a drunken binge.]
If it were a last-minute-drunken-binge sort of thing, the employee was lucky he *didn't* get the day off to get married :-)
When I was a bus operator I really did not like the position and was tempted and very close to resigning. The only reason I did not resign was because it was always a childhood dream of mine to be a Transit worker since I have always been a buff. My reasons for resigning have already been listed in this post by other transit workers. However once receiving a promotion I decided to stay. Regarding days off I always try to plan my activities of my days off which is what they are for and have only put in for a COA once in four years, and that was for going to the Shoreline for New York days and I think the wedding day off story might be one of transit lore! I do know though that any transit employee who does post on Subtalk and bustalk must be in the job for more that just a check. To have taken the time out to research and find this site on your free personal time must mean some sort of devotion to your job. And to mike, if your ultimite goal is to beat management its not going to happen if your busy beating up your union leadership. It only happens when your union is united.
Unfortunately our union is, in name only.
(Our union is in name only). Lets trade. I get the TWU. You get DC37.
So, our union is united if we vote yes just like the busdrivers for the $60 media tax? Forget it, we're not going for it.
Thank you, Alex. That's exactly the kind of stuff that I'm talking about.
[Attendance - This year I was out once for two days with the flu. If I had been out for one day more, I would have needed a signed doctor's note explaining why (for comparision, my high school gave us 5 days before we needed a note), that was dated from the first day of my illness. Sick time leaves us tied to the house, since TA can call or visit while we are out to make sure we really are sick.]
Requiring the doctor's note to the from the first day of the illness is truly ridiculous. Consider this scenario: An employee calls in sick on Monday because he feels too ill to work, but not so bad that he has to see a doctor, and he expects that he'll be back to work the next day. But then, come the next day he's a lot worse, sees the doctor, and ends up missing several days. This is hardly an unusual sort of thing. There's no way he can get a legitimate doctor's note dated Monday.
(Doctor's note for absence). We have the same thing. I believe the medical industry lobbied to get it in (but then everyone knows how I feel about the medical industry).
I have my own solution for one or two day absences. You can use a sick day, and you don't need a note, but you don't get paid -- then jack everyone's salary up to make up for the money saved. For longer absences, you get a note, and get paid. If you're that sick for that long, you should see a doctor anyway. In theory, if I stay put a few more years I'll get paid for half of my sick days in cash when I leave city service, but I'd rather get docked when I'm sick but earn more right now.
For one thing, this plan will allow you to take a sick day when your kid is sick without feeling like you're breaking the rules. And people who take sick days when they are not sick won't have more vacation than I do anymore.
BTW my wife's employer has a doctor on site, so if you feel lousy and just want to get checked you can go over on your lunch hour. For free. The TA also has a doctor I guess, but not an effective one. When I was being hired they gave me a physical with an EKG (I guess they were afraid I'd have a heart attack and crash my computer terminal). The machine didn't work right, and he said I had a heart condition, which I had to have checked out to find it was not so.
Section 2.6 of the TA/TWU contract is necessary because of the rampent abuse of sick leave, especially poor in some titles. Just a case in point. Every TWU member gets 12 sick days per year. They can use them or save them. In Car Equipment, those days are credited on May 1. I have roughly 65 Car cleaners with a mean time in service of 8 years. That's a potential collective sick leave balance 8 x 12 x 65 (or 4,680 sick days). Perhaps it is indicitive of the scope of the problem if I say that my personal Sick Leave Balance (for less than 20 years) is greater than the sum of all of my cleaners combined. Perhaps some of our fellow TWU Member posters would like to comment on this.
> That's a potential collective sick leave balance 8 x 12 x 65
> (or 4,680 sick days). Perhaps it is indicitive of the scope of
> the problem if I say that my personal Sick Leave Balance (for
> less than 20 years) is greater than the sum of all of my
> cleaners combined
When I first read this I thought you were saying you had 4,680 sick days in the bank! (Actually 8x12x65 is 6,240 so the problem is worse than you describe!)
-Dave
I have to agree with you Steve. There are alot of my fellow members who take too much sick time. They then get in trouble for this, for which then I have to go and defend them in front of labor relations. I can sorta understand how O.J.'s lawyers felt.
I don't know about car equiment, but in RTO, say my car broke down, or my daughter is sick. THEY WILL NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSRANCES GIVE YOU THE DAY! Perhaps that is why we tend to use our sick time. I my self was down with a terrible flu recently. TA called and visited, "just to see if I was OK"
I had the flu too fortanity they only called me. They never visited me since I moved to the Pocono's. I once asked the Person at the Crew Office if they would send someone. They told me no but may call the Sheriff to visit me.
Unfortunately it seems that many people in both public and private sector think that sick time is theirs' to use however they'd like to. I've never worked in the public sector, but I have worked as a contractor with federal employees and I know they considered sick leave to be theirs period. In some cases they so bold as to announce that they're taking sick leave on a particular day.
Now I work for the Washington Post and I'm fortuante enough to be on a team where my colleagues do not abuse the perks. We can pretty much come and go as we're pleased and no one watches over you or makes you fill out a time sheet etc. I know this is rare and I'm also well aware that this "give and take" cooperation with our team is successful because no one abuses, the work is done in a timely manner and we always make sure we have ample coverage.
Wayne
Yes, you are correct. In government, where there are few (if any) incentives to perform more efficiently, sick time seems to be viewed as extra vacation time. There are many people in my department who regularly take the limit (15-20 days per year, depending on when the folks were hired) and manage to do so in ways to avoid doctor's notes, detection, etc. It's truly amazing the amount of thought and energy that people will put into this endeavor. If only this level of diligence went into their work...
You can blame part of the problem on supervision and work rules which will often not allow call-ins for vacation on the same day. Thus, some true emergencies can only be handled by someone calling out sick. Of course, one person's emergency is another's reluctance to leave the house on a rainy day.
In my organization, deceit and lying have risen to the point that notes must be obtained for one to get a funeral day. This is always interesting trying to get one of these. Most funeral directors think you're playing a joke on them.
As much as you want to blame management for pettiness, pickiness, punishment, etc, much of the games-playing is due to employee slacking and stretching of the rules. If all employees would realize that we're all in this together and we'd do better by pulling the oars in the same direction, we'd all be better off. Until then, things certainly won't get any better. And, management will look for ways to reduce or eliminate the problem. As I noted in my previous post on this thread, privatization is seen as the great cure-all for this nonsense.
If you really want this to happen, keep doing things the same way you've always done them (and wonder why you don't get different results...?).
A Mere note for a funeral? in Transit- and I am not complaining, but simply stating fact: A note is not enough, we need an ORIGINAl Death Certificate- a photocopy wont do, a note from a minister or funeral director wont do, an obituary from the newpspaer wont suffice.
(note- this is not a complaint,. fortunately I have had no losses in my family since working for transit, but I would comply with the rule_
OK, you win! I thought a note was a bit much. But, it's always interesting when you try to get a note (been there and done that, unfortunately). I often wonder who dreams up these measures...
[I have roughly 65 Car cleaners with a mean time in service of 8 years. That's a potential collective sick leave balance 8 x 12 x 65 (or 4,680 sick days). Perhaps it is indicitive of the scope of
the problem if I say that my personal Sick Leave Balance (for less than 20 years) is greater than the sum of all of my cleaners combined.]
I have a solution! When car cleaners are hired, there should be an understanding that they don't have to come into work on a routine basis - in other words, they will be presumed to be sick all the time. If a cleaner feels particularly energentic one day, he can claim it as a "healthy day" and come into work. I'd say 15 to 20 healthy days per year should be sufficient.
Great idea Peter. We have a new cleaner pick going into effect on April 25th. I plan to excerpt some off this thread and use it (hopefully) as a motivational tool. The sad facts are these:
There are 365 days per year.
There are 2 days off per week X 52 weeks = 104 days
Average vacation allowance is 20 days yearly
There are 11 paid holidays and one personal day
We accept sick leave usage of 6 days as reasonable.
365-(104+20+11+1+6) = 365-142 = 223 days
Therefore if the arithmatic is correct, I require each employee to work 223 days per year. If each of my 65 cleaners takes an additional 4 sick days per year, that's 260 days lost. The bean counters see this and say, "Gee he got the job done with 260 man-days less than we budgeted for. Wow, we can cut a job (223 man-days) and he'll still get it done and we save over $35,000. Ain't we smart?" . Mind you, this is just one shift at one maintenance shop. Multiply it out system wide and you can lose 20-30 jobs a year. They call it productivity gains at Jay Street. In the field we know it just means making everyone work harder and less efficiently...
Once again, the TWU members cost themselves jobs by showing the bean counters that they can be done without.
[I require each employee to work 223 days per year. If each of my 65 cleaners takes an additional 4 sick days per year, that's 260 days lost.]
Are you the direct supervisor of all 65 of these cleaners? If so, their sick-day abuse doesn't surprise me. It's a general rule of thumb in business that no supervisor should have more than 10 direct subordinates, 15 tops. Anything more makes it too difficult to manage properly. So if NYCT expects you (or any other manager) to be in charge of 65 people, they ought to expect sick-day abuse.
(Number of subordinates)
No matter what the Daily News and the TWU says, the TA is not a top heavy agency. In fact, its the least top heavy I've worked with.
Of course, you have the MTA on top of it.
[It's a general rule of thumb in business that no supervisor should have more than 10 direct subordinates, 15 tops. Anything more makes it too difficult to manage properly.]
The number of indirects can also be a problem. As a project manager, I have approximately 85 people on my team. I must direct their work (at a high level), see them all in meetings at least once a week, and provide input to their immediate supervisors on their performance on a regular basis, as well as plan schedules and work plans up to three years in advance. 55-60 hours a week is not unusual, but hey, it's fun and it pays the bills.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, no. I have 8 Supervisors that directly report to me. I have 6 others that report, in part to me. The 150+ hourly employees are indirect reports.
Bravo,Steve! Now you sound like me!
Or, Erik, perhaps you have latent management tendencies ???
(An employee calls in sick on Monday because he feels too ill to work, but not so bad that he has to see a doctor, and he expects that he'll be back to work the next day. But then, come the next day he's a lot worse, sees the doctor, and ends up missing several days. This is hardly an unusual sort of thing. There's no way he can get a legitimate doctor's note dated Monday.)
When we call in sick, we have to say how long we will be out. If we say one day and then find we need more time, we have to call in again, thereby making two separate incidents of being sick. The best way is to call out 'until further notice' and then call when you want to resume.
BTW, the last time I did see the doctor for the sake of this silly rule, I got a letter from my HMO yelling at me for wasting the doctor's time.
Visitor to London this summer, watch out for construction work which
will see the NORTHERN LINE closed for a nine week period commencing on July 5th between KENNINGTON and EUSTON (The BANK Branch)
Normal services will operate on all other sections and only ANGEL station does not have a connection/transfer to other lines.
Rail replacement buses will operate serving the sections affected.
.
As a result the number of 1959/1962 stock in daily use will drop by half with more and more services being formed by 1995 tube stock.
If you are coming to London this year to see the 59/62 stock don't leave it to late !!
The closure is to allow for tunnel work and "smoothing" of some sharp
curves in the Bank area which would take many many months of weekend closures, so it has ben decided to do this work during the vacation period in one go.
Journey times and line speed should change once the work is complete!.
Regards
Rob London UK :^)
.
Note Euston and Kennington also served by NORTHERN LINE Charing Cross Branch services, these will NOT be affected !!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well more and more "new" stock is coming into service, for the
"Number Crunchers" amonst you !! here is a guide to what 1959/1962 stock is still in service (However this is not a TOTAL list in use)
.
1272 1135
1012 1095
1076 1151
1068 1079
1164 1043A
1252 1203
1280 1035
1128 1683
1028A 1059
1236 1251
1024 1307
1084 1155
1188 1083
1464 1075
1208 1055
1522 1179
1176 1047
1284 1263
1196 1115
1100 1605
1292 1740
1016 1605
.
A= painted in corporate livery
1292 contains NDM 9245 its own NDM (non driving motor car) 9293 cut
1084 contains NDM 9085 ots own NDM 9053 cut.
.
Also in use
1680 1681 (with 2680 trailer and NDM 9125)
used by Engineering department as works unit..kept at Edgware depot
when notin use during the twilight hours!!
.
I hope to list all remaining 1959/1962 stock in use in regular updates.
Regards Rob :^)
.
**again please note, this list contains stock seen in use and around 15 more sets are in use**
As of midnight tonight, the drivers of the TTC (Toronto Transit Commission) may be on strike, barring any unforeseen 11th hour miracle. Yesterday's vote overwhelming rejected the latest offer by management so it looks like about a million people who use the system daily will have to find other ways to get to work tomorrow. Anyone planning to drive in Toronto tomorrow or during the next few days, may want to change their plans for awhile. So get out the bicycles...
David Gunn Announced his retrement recently is it related?
Remember the recent thread about whether the subway was Y2K compliant? Well, while there didn't seem to be many worries, some people are *really* frightened about the whole issue. Case in point: yesterday evening we went to the Wal-Mart on Route 25 in Middle Island (Suffolk County). On the way, we passed a store in a strip mall that had a large sign out front reading "Y2K Center." Was it a CompUSA? A Circuit City? A Radio Shack? Nope. It was a gun store.
Hmmm ... maybe I should change the subject line to Moron Y2K Preparedness :-)
Hey, everyone's on the Y2K panic bandwagon if they think they can make some extra bucks from it. I was out in Las Vegas last month for my grandson's second birthday celebration (no, we didn't take him to a girlie show at one of the casinos, my older daughter and her husband live in Vegas) and even the grocery stores have entire sections devoted to "Y2K supplies", with 100 lb. tubs of rice and instant mashed potatos, 40 lb. propane tanks, 50 lb. boxes of dried beef, etc., along with copies of a pamphlet - published at taxpayer expense by the Nevada Department of Emergency Services or some such - recommending that every family have at least a three month supply of non-perishable food, water, and medicine on hand because of the "expected disruption of the infrastructure" [I'm paraphrasing here, I didn't keep a copy of the pamphlet]. I read in the paper recently where the American Red Cross has even joined the fuss, on the side of the loonies. See if they ever get another dollar from me! My son-in-law has a side business reloading ammunition and it's been booming lately due to the Y2K fuss too, and he's not even promoting it in any way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What are the best and worst subway lines? Which lines are the least safe to ride on?
Note: This is my own opinion, so don't break out the bats and brooms:
The #7 line, the "Q" line, the "A" line are among the best
The "E" line is a poor show due to dirty conditions. The "G" tends to get dirty too.
As far as safety is concerned, I would prefer not to comment on that.
The rule of thumb is to stay alert and aware of your surroundings.
Naturally, I would think twice about riding in the middle of the night, no matter what neighborhood or borough I were in, even Midtown.
Wayne
My feelings exactly.
The A isn't the same without the R-10s, but it's still a great route. Put it this way: if I didn't feel that way, I wouldn't have taken out 8AVEXP license plates.
The Q has a nice express run on the Brighton line, not to mention the 34th to W. 4th dash. Of course, the slant R-40s provide the icing on the cake.
Ditto for the 7 express and the great view through the storm door window. That will be missed when the Redbirds depart.
While I no longer have the animosity for the E that I used to, I still refuse to take it south of 42nd St. It all goes back to the days of the R-1/9s, whose side route signs said "E/8th Ave. Express" while it ran local in Manhattan except during rush hours. I felt a sene of betrayal when that E train we took on Sept. 23, 1967 stopped at 23rd St. Some express, I thought. It was A trains at all costs after that.
Just a reminder the 7 Express is running during the day now. until Noon Express to Manhattan. After Noon Express to Flushing!!!
More headend time on those redbirds...
Now, if they could only bring back express service to Manhattan after Mets games...
We Mets fans who use the #7 to get to and from Shea Stadium should at least be thankful that the TA usually puts a few extra trains in from Willets Point to Times Square after each Mets game. An Express towards Manhattan would certainly be nicer, but that's probably asking too much. I haven't seen extra D put-ins at 161st Street following Yankee games; don't know whether or not this is done on the #4.
I think they are extra trains on the 4. The only the D does is run local in the Bx if the game starts around rush hour.
They do run extra trains on the 4 after Yankee night games: they enter service at 161 St., and terminate at Bowling Green (signs are "Special" on the top and "Bowling Green, Manhattan" on the bottom).
Yes, I have seen these special trains after the ball game. I think they start runnind around the 7th inning or so. I know for sure the run local in the Bx. if there is game during rush hours........
My last yankee game, we got a Special D (no bullet use here)came in service at Yankee Stadium that got routed local at 47/50th Rock making express stops on the local track to West Fourth where it went out of service. This was after the game ended.
At least for Yankee nite games, NYCT uses 3 Concourse Yard layups from B service. They go thru to Brooklyn, but run express from Prospect Park, terminating at Kings Hwy., Brighton Beach, or Stillwell in accordance with congestion at Stillwell, and miscellaneous train interference. They will return lite to the yard for AM B service the next day.
I still think we need Yankee Stadium service on Eighth Avenue for passengers using Pennsylvania Station and the Port Authority Bus Terminal. Some of people who now drive to the Stadium might be more accepting of mass transit if they had an express train without making any transfers.
Why did they switch the B and c anyway?
I think part of had to do with standardization of equipment at each of the yards.
Given the issues about siting Yankee stadium, etc, it wouldn't be such a bad idea to run a couple of "specials" from the lower level at 42nd St express to/from the Stadium for tourists in Times Square hotels and Jerseyites going into the Port Authority Bus Terminal. As it is, you have to change trains to get to the PABT and Times Square.
There's just one problem: The lower level at 42nd St. is only accessible by southbound E trains coming off the Queens line. It's facing in the wrong direction, so to speak, as it consists of one track and one platform. You could run some 8th Ave. specials from 161st St. and turn them around at 34th St., using the storage track which ends just before 23rd St.
When October rolls around, there will be NO specials because the Yankees WON'T QUALIFY FOR THE PLAYOFFS.HA HA HA HA!!
And George Steinbrenner will end up firing someone and rehiring someone else.
I believe it!
You dont think so huh!!!!!! Watch and see!!!!!!!
161 St also gets platform CRs to herd everyone onto the 4 train. If any one is at tonight's game (Wed 4/21) I'll be one of them.
There are about 4 or 5 Extra trains for the Yankee fans. They wait on M TK aroun 167 Street. They go from 161 Street to Bowling Green and run lite to Mosholu Yard.
if they put in an express run for #7 after every mets game, they'll probabyl crash withthe other #7 expresses since they come from the other direction and theres only 1 express track! plus y give u Mets fans such good service man?
All day 7 express service.
I feel another field trip coming on :)
--Mark
You mean those "red" subway cars are getting retired. I love the 7 train, and the cars they use.
Aren't they the best subway cars? I've never been on the silver colored subway cars but they don't look as nice, and I hear the silvers are less reliable.
all you hear is all these people bragging about how good the red cars are because they different and has a front window so that they can look out to the tracks, c'mon. the red trains are fast but they are old and make alot of noise by now.they also think that the red trains run faster but thats not true, most of the time on express runs, they as fast just that they don't accelerate as fast. try A during middays and morning rush downtown on ANY train type from 34 to 14, it is fast, also, all trains through 60 st, 53 st, and fulton st tunnel runs with very high speed. STOP THE MISUNDERSTANDING BY NOW!!!!!!!
Nah...the silvers aren't less reliable than the Methuselahs, I mean, Redbirds. At least most of the silvers aren't. I read an article in the Times in 1996, I think, and it showed that the R-62s on the #4 line had the best record for how many miles they ran before breaking down. The Methuselahs aren't the best cars in the system. As a life-long 2 line rider (where there are also Redbirds), I've had to endure those aging cars and their shortcomings for so many years.
Let's see, they have their PA speakers near the floor where you can't hear them with tons of people standing in front of them. They're noisier than most newer cars. Some of them still have the old "school-bus windows". They have those straps that even if you hold on to them on a sharp curve you swing across the car, bumping into other people (and possibly ending up in a fight). They smell awful. I don't find them to be particularly fast and some of them are rusting away. Maybe once in a while, they're nice for nostalgic purposes, but every day for the last forty years? Who drives the same car every day for forty years? Would you rather fly in a turbo-prop plane or a modern jet plane if you had to fly often?
New cars are long overdue on the 2 line, and until the R-142s arrive and they speed it up somehow, the 2 will be the worst line in the system. By the way, I remember riding R62/62As on the 2 in 1983 and 84. What happened to them? Why were they sent to other lines? Why did we have to get back those horrible, graffiti-plagued cars? I like silver cars! They are so much better-looking and nicer to ride in. Give them some respect!
The R33 fleet on the #2 line has had most of its rust repaired, at least from my observations. They are handsome and fast cars. Sure they take a little skill in riding - swing straps are harder to hold on to than grab bars because they move back and forth. Some of the R33s DO have bad paint jobs on their ceiling vents (looks like someone
daubed it on with a brush) and sometimes the A/C doesn't work, but they have served well for 37 years. And there are the R28s on the #5 - they are holding up remarkably well at the age of 40. The ones with the worst rust of all are the R29 cars on the #5 and #6. They will probably go first. Silver cars are attractive - look at the R32s, R38s, R40s (yes!) and R42s, all holding up beautifully at 30 plus years. I prefer the low-tech look and feel - makes me feel like I'm really in a subway...BTW they DO plan on retaining a few hundred "Methuselahs" er- I mean Redbirds :o)
Wayne
Maybe once in a while, they're nice for nostalgic purposes, but every day for the last forty years?
Subway cars are designed and built to last longer than your average automobile. And probably maintained better than your average car, too.
And the AB standards and Lo-V cars lasted more than 50 years.
--Mark
Only a handful of BMT standards actually logged 50 years of service on an individual basis. As a fleet, they were around for 54 years, with the average car lasting 47 years. The only Lo-Vs which might have lasted 50 years were the ones that ran on the 3rd Ave. el along with the World's Fair Lo-Vs at the end of their careers. Once again, on the average, they put in well over 45 years. The entire fleet of Gibbs Hi-Vs served for 50 years, and three of them lasted for 53. The Triplexes probably would have lasted 60 years had it not been for their premature withdrawal.
The prewar cars were indeed robust, well-built units, and less sophisticated - and they weren't even air-conditioned!
I did remember when I was young at summer camp we went to the Bx Zoo from Bklyn. After walking from the E. Tremont Station, I looked up at the tracks(at that time, I was a young, budding subway mini-buff and loved that White Plains Rd line) and saw R62/62A's layed up on the middle track? I remember asking my dad if the "silver fox" was on the 2 line and he said no just the 4.(At that time the 4 was the only line I knew with the R62 since I lived by the Utica Ave. Station on the IRT.) How come the 2 had R62's and why they did not stay? Personally, I think the 1,2,and 4 should have them because they run 24hrs mainline trains.(I know some 7 train rider going to say that they should have it as well.):):)
actually in alot of times, the B,D with R-68 and R-68As runs faster than R-40 slant through the 6 Av express runs......
I have never been on ANY R68 OR R68A that has ever exceeded 45 MPH in the run from West 4th to 34th nor vice versa. Even the R68A on the "B" bury their wheels in the sand on what should be a rocket ride from 36th to Pacific. I remember an R-4 mix on the "B" one time about 30 years ago, northbound from 36th - he got the bull gears up to about "G" above middle "C" and was rocking and bouncing from side to side like a carnival ride. And on a number of occasions I rode Slant R40s on the "B" there. All these took this run at a minimum 45 under full green. Even the D-type Triplex got to about 45 there last October 18th! This grand old beast left numerous "N" trains in its wake all the way up to 57th-7th.
The R68 (and the R68A) is just plain slow. Beautiful train to look at, but slow. Perhaps they should re-adjust their motors.
Wayne
No respect for the poor R-68/68A. I've ridden the Q express from West 4th to 34th when it was served with R-68s, 68As and then Slant R-40s. And that run actually seemed faster with the 68s. It felt like the R-40s took longer to do that run. Why might that be?
Try this little comparison: Take a "D" train from 125th Street to 59th Street and time it. Go back uptown to 125th Street and take an "A" train of R38s back downtown and time it. You will find that 9 times out of 10 the R38 will beat the R68 by at least one minute, perhaps as much as 2.5 minutes. The R44 is another slowpoke too.
Don't get me wrong - the R68 are very attractive and reliable trains -their MDBF (Mean days between failure) rates bear this out. However,
they could use a little adjustment.
One more thing - I happen to be partial to Slant R40s...
Wayne
Yes the Slants are nice too, especially now that they don't have all that graffiti and grime like they did ten years ago. I think they're well-suited for the Q line, where they've been running since 1997. It was a shock seeing them there for the first time, as well as on any line other than the B where they ran for quite some time (what year were most of them assingned to the B?). I did ride the Slants on the D and F a couple of times, back in the graffiti days and saw a set of them in the Concourse yard as a CC train. The fan window is a good thing about them, no question. But if they had a layout similar to the R-44/46, the slanted front would have been a smashing success.
I've ridden the R-44 from 125th to 59th. It is slow and it feels old. But the R-46 is good and it feels new. Too bad they don't assign it to express trains like the A or the D anymore. And I miss the blue stripes and the black front (both of which are still on all Hudson and Harlem line Metro-North trains).
I just got this book on all of the subway cars up until now and I noticed that the subway cars with the GE series motors (1257E's) if I am not mistaken on the model # are much faster in acceleration and speed performance than the Westinghouse equipped subway cars. GE equipped cars now in service include the R33, R36, R38, R40/R40M, R44(SIR), R46, R62, and R127's. Some R32, R62A, and R42's are equipped with them also, but not many. The Westinghouse powered cars are the: R27, R29, R32, R42, R44(NYCT), R62A, R68/68A. Just a little info for you!
Peace
DaShawn
Actually the better test would be to take an R68 train uptown, then come back and take an R38 train uptown. Differences in grades and the like may not make the comparison valid in different directions.
I took an R68 "D" up to Yankee Stadium week before last and while I agree it didn't seem particularly fast the ride was quiet and smooth and I wonder if that doesn't give the impression of slowness. The stretch between West 4th and 34th on the 6th Ave. northbound express is also extremely smooth, no rail joint noise or anything, no rocking side-to-side. Again, the quiet and smooth ride may make it appear slower.
-Dave
Dave,
Your observations are good and I thought it would be interesting to do a different test of the W4-34 run uptown and downtown on 6th avenue a few years ago. I rode a slant-40 (B at the time) in each direction, a few times, to ensure I got a ride in each direction where the controller was "on the post" the whole trip (or at least as much is allowable), and there were no slowdowns due to traffic ahead.
Southbound, the best running time was 2:10; northbound 2:30. It verified within a few seconds either way on a couple of trips. You can see the difference visually, too. Southbound, there are two downgrade stretches from 34th, one heading into 23rd street, and the other just before W. 4th. [It just dawned on me that I now have an altimeter on my wristwatch :-) so next time I'm on that line, I'll check for the actual depth change.]
How high does your altimeter read? It would be neat to start in Denver and go up to the mountains to see the difference, especially if you go up to Mt. Evans or Pike's Peak or any of the other 14,000- foot summits.
I'd like to have something like that while taking an elevator in one of the subway stations in Washington Heights, or the Empire State Building. Here's one: get off at Roosevelt Island and note the difference in readings at track level and street level.
P. S. Did you ride on any R-68s that day on that stretch?
The altimeter on my watch goes over 10,000 feet... I've taken "readings" on top of Mt. Haleukalah (sp?) on Maui. Actually, it's "pressure altitude" which you can watch drop proportionally to altitude in a pressurized aircraft. For example, returning from DC to BOS earlier today, we hit a min of 6000' pressure altitude while flying at 33,000 feet on an Airbus A-320. Different aircraft have different proportionality settings; the DC-9 is the worst with flight altitude 37,000' about 9000' pressure altitude.
Now, back on subject, since the watch works on pressure sensing, you get spurious readings in river tunnels that are set-up with negative pressure to allow venting. But a run like 6th ave should work fine for measurements, as do rides on elevators taken before/after the lift. I'll be in NYC doing the weather-thing on May 1st, and I'll try to remember to take some readings and report on them. FYI, it's a CASIO watch, retail about $150, and it has a thermometer too :-) just what every railfan/meteorologist needs!
Gee, all it needs now is a speedometer (or a pedometer, or a radar gizmo a la the Juggs gun).
As I've said before, they should restore field shunting to those wallowing beached whales, but what do I know? Speaking of that Triplex run, did its bull and pinion gears also get up to G above middle C last October? The BMT standards used to that in the 14th St. tunnel.
I'll say this much about the R-1/9s - at least they had B signs. So did the R-10s. I remember seeing a B of R-1/9s lumber past 34th St. once without stopping. Its horn sounded a full octave above those of, say, the R-32s., and its motors groaned along at about F# below middle C. Maybe lumber is too cruel a word to describe the R-1/9s. The R-68s certainly lumber along. No one will ever mistake an R-68 for a slant R-40.
Try riding an "N" of R-68 through 60 St tunnel to Queens, im sure you'll be surprise.They reach at least 50-55, ur ears get numb, Man they are fast there.
The real question is, how fast are they going by the time they reach either end of that tunnel? I've heard the R-68s have to huff and puff on the uphill run, and if it weren't for that full head of steam, it would be a case of everybody-out-and-push. It was the same way with the BMT standards in the 14th St. tunnel.
Those R68's can only go that fast while they're going downhill! Going up, they're lucky to go 18 MPH into Queensboro Plaza.
Those R-68s need every mph they can muster in that tunnel. Chances are the BMT standards fared exactly the same, if the 14th St. tunnel was any indication; I wonder how the Triplexes did.
Try 15mph.That was without stopping at Home signal#4 to wait for the lineup.
The best line is # 4, 5 and 6 because they fastest.
Yeah, but they're SO crowded during the day!
The only time is not crowded is #6 local rush hour to Parkchester and #6 express rush hour to Pelham Bay is soooo crowded. I hope you like the color with number and i think this is better than the bullet.
Flushing Line is the best line and Third Avenue El in Manhattan is the best if it existed per 1955.
I will give the Lexington a chance to redeem itself this fall. I was sorely disappointed last fall when I took a 5 train of Redbirds from Grand Central to 125th St. It plodded along at no more than 30 mph, as though it had gotten R-68-itis. The 4 train of R-62s I took southbound didn't do any better.
What do you expect if that's the only line on the East Side? 2Av line where are you?
Best in terms of what? Riding comfort, scenery or safety?
If you are talking in terms of railfan qualities (best ride for your buck) then I would agree with Wayne that the "A" is up there on the list (It is one of the longest continuous lines).
Another personal favorite is the "D" or Brighton line (Prospect Park and going south). The Sea Beach or "N" train is another good one for riding and scenery. Then there is the Canarsie "L" train which I like for it's run through Brooklyn (much like a giant shuttle line -- one track either direction) with the tail end being a suburban-like grade right-of-way (makes the trip interesting).
For safety, I'd have to say that pretty much any line during the day is okay (well, maybe the GG is pushing it abit). Also, the New Lots going east through Brownsville/East New York could be hairy for an out-of-towner (or even a native New Yorker who looks/dresses like a tourist*).
*someone who wears Bermuda shorts (or some wacky combination of clothing) and has a camera in plain site. Hint: when I ride the system with my camera (for those sponteneous train-spotting opportunities) I use a small 35mm that fits into my jacket pocket -- I pre-set it to 'on' mode and just "whip it out" when the equipment/scene I'm looking for comes into view.
> The Sea Beach or "N" train is another good one for riding
> and scenery.
The "N"ever?!? What scenery?
> a tourist - someone who wears Bermuda shorts (or some wacky
> combination of clothing) and has a camera in plain site.
Hmmm ...wonder what I look like with my camcorder? :)
--Mark
The scenery on the "N": People's back yards (from below), and about a hundred thousand Ailanthaus trees drooping over the cut and sprouting around the edges of the trackways. And some of the plug ugliest stations in the system (except in the station houses, which have nice tiles).
Wayne
Gee, Boys and Girls, can you say "victim"?
Brownsville/EastNewYork: New Lots
I assume you arereferring to the train. The only station that look unsafe to me is Rocakaway Ave. That is because of the PJ's that is surrounding both sides of the station. Junius might look deserted and unsafe as well. But that's the only two stations that I would find unsafe.........
Yep, 3train, that's exactly what I was talking out.
However, like everything these days -- perception is sometimes worst than the reality.
After a year and a half Conducting, I've never had aproblem on the 3. If you're nice to the people, they're nice to you; if you hassle them, they'll hassle you right back. This is as opposed to the 7, where most of the riders seem rude, crude and sometimes downright stupid no matter how you treat them.
I love the Brigton,Sea Beach,& West End lines.They are very scenic,& it puts me at ease. Any train going into queens I enjoy.Well with the exception of the A train. The A, & C because they through every bad section in New York would to ME be the least safest line.
Sea Beach and half of Brighton are open cut. You do not get to see much except after 8Av on Sea Beach.............
One time I was told that the 2 was the worst subway line safteywise since it ran through the worst neighborhoods in the city (Brookly/Bronx)... This could have been a biased statement from my grandfather but who knows....
I really think safety on the trains has more to do with the number of people present in the car or on the platform than with the general crime rates or income levels of the neighborhoods above. I ride the 2 often late at night between the city and Brooklyn (except when there's track work), and it's always busy enough that I've never felt threatened or exposed; I'd be a lot less comfortable waiting for the IND at some deserted local stop on Central Park West. Of course, the meaner neighborhoods on the 2 are at the farther reaches of the route, at which point fewer people will be on the train, so at that point either way could mean trouble.
Besides, the 2 is one of my favorite rides--always a front window, lots of twists between Hoyt and Chambers, a terrific express run, and an elevated stretch up to the zoo.
Actually, the 7 runs through some crappy neighborhoods as well. Saftey has moe to do with number of people riding whebn you are...
Well, if you're concerned about pickpockets, then the riskiest lines have to be the ones in Washington that link the Capitol building with the House and Senate office buildings:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can say that again. Heck, that deserves a rim shot.
[Actually, the 7 runs through some crappy neighborhoods as well. Safety has more to do with number of people riding when you are...]
That's not my impression of the 7. Some of the neighborhoods it traverses may be a bit down at the heels, but they aren't hard-core ghettos.
A few days ago, my father and I were discussing various aspects of crime and neighborhoods in the City and he kept insisting that the Washington Heights area (around the GWB, in particular) was among the worst areas of the city. Well, I knew that was a fact 10 years ago and back, but yesterday, I decided to take the A train up to 181st Street near Ft. Tryon Park, and, as I cautiously alighted and rose to the street, I emerged and was very pleasantly surprised by what I saw!
The area looked very clean and the buildings well-taken care of. Families were walking around with their children and the people didn't look threatening at all. Even the few local teens I spotted looked decent!
Ft. Tryon Park was another surprise -- looked almost as good as Central Park!
I must say that the Washington Heights area (at least in those few blocks along Ft. Washington Avenue) has undergone a renaissance.
Washington Heights was the first place the crack epidemic hit, but it never was one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the city. Statistically, Brownsville/East New York was the murder capital of the city in the bad old days. Walking around doing field surveys, the neighborhood I have felt most unnevred in is Morris Heights, Bronx (I was surveying commercial occupancy and parking on Burnside Avenue). Police cars were screaming up University Ave with lights and sirens in one direction or another every few minutes.
The Bronx has made a nice comeback, thank you. There are very few vacant lots/abandoned/burned out buildings to be found. My last trip up the #2/#5 found new/recent housing stock, many rehabilitated apartment buildings, much human activity and only one vacant lot, just north of Jackson Avenue station on the west side of W'chester Avenue.
Two large dogs were sunning themselves on a discarded mattress in the midst of the lot; there was very little other garbage in it. Peg and I got off at Simpson Street and Prospect Avenue, took pictures, looked about the antique station houses, etc., no problems whatsoever.
On the other hand, there IS one line I am very, very queasy about visiting and photographing - that is the #3 line east of Utica Avenue.
Despite my successful and uneventful trip down the "L" line (with stops at all but Livonia Avenue) last June 28, the #3 line simply gives me the willies. Perhaps some statistics (i.e. number of incidents) on the #3 line, versus, say the "L" or "A" lines might reassure me. The lack of a free transfer at Junius/Livonia (although I carry a Fun Pass at all times) doesn't help matters. Is that walkway still open?
Wayne
Yes the walkway is still open, although you might see kids smoking weed on the "bridge"? I lived over there for a year now and nothing bad has happened, yet... I used to be scared to take the 4 late at night and would go out of my way to catch the L or take the B14 bus home. But now I have gotten used to the area a little and feel comfortably walking from Pennsylvania to my house.(I use Penn instead of Junius because there are more stores at that end and Im too lazy to climb the "bridge" to Junius.) Which bring me to a story... One day I was subway riding and started from the Livonia Av. station. There is a cop who guards the station and the "bridge". This particular evening at around 8:30, I thought I was alone in the station but was not. There was a cop there who should have been doing his duties. Instead he is getting services from prostitute/crackhead(I dont know or care). When he saw me, he tried to play it off like nothing happened. When I got back later that night, he looked at me with a "you did not see anything look". I just kept walking to my house. To end it all the 3 line in Brownsville/ENY is not bad at all. All are welcome to ride it. As I stated many times, the neighborhood is going under changes for the positive. Trust me. Although I do take the L when going uptown because it is faster to Manhattan than the 3.
Thanks for the info - perhaps this summer I'll venture out there, "changing" from the "L" to the #3 at Livonia.
I was at New Lots and Sutter (a lovely station) back last June 28; it was a Sunday morning, hot and sunny. I toured that section of the "L" from 10 to 11 AM.
Question on the #3 - I haven't been there since April 11, 1969 - is one of the stations - Pennsylvania Avenue I think - an island platform?
Wayne
No, the only island platform on the elevated stretch is New Lots Ave. At Penn Av, I think there is evidence of a 2nd exit at the Georgia Av end of the station. Could anybody help me out here?
I believe that most stations had another exit. If you'll look at any elevated line(such as the B, F, J, M) you'll see solid concrete and "dividers" between the tracks over the location of the open mezzanine. Walk to the other end and you'll see the same clue in the structure. I lived along that line in the early to mid 1960s and even then those exits, iof they existed, were gone.
I see solid concrete on the floor. I also see open mezzanine.
Let me know when if you decide to venture out there, I will probably join you............
Neighborhood appearances can be misleading. A neighborhood with a relatively high crime rate may not always seem dangerous to the casual observer, and vice-versa. For example, the area in the icinity of the LIRR's East New York station seems as creepy as one can imagine, thanks to abandoned buildings and trash-strewn vacant lots. Yet I suspect that its rate of violent street crime probably is not particularly high, if for no other reason than that few people are on the streets in comparison to elsewhere. On a totally different level, the same is probably true with the Wall Street area on a weekend - there are few people about (though that's changing), making the area seem unsafe, but one's risk of violent crime is probably very low.
Hey guys could anybody give me some imput on how using the F train to the Ave X station is as far safety goes? Planning on using it to go on the tour of the Coney Island shops in May. Thanks for any info.
It's generally a good area, though it does have some light industry - I thinkthe F train is one of the only ones in the city that goes through no "bad" areas.
[I thinkthe F train is one of the only ones in the city that goes through no "bad" areas.]
In addition, the N, R and 7 don't go through any areas that are real ghettos.
(Bad areas). Depending on your definition of a bad area, the E isn't that bad either -- South Jamaica may be somewhat dangerous, but south Jamaica is not. I'd add the #1 to the list. Although it was hit by the 1986-92 crack epidemic, Washington Heights is not a ghetto. I'd bet in 15 years none of use will be able to afford to live there. The worst neighborhoods on the G are just moderate in the crime category. The Concourse Line misses the worst of the South Bronx, although as I've said, Morris Heights seemed a little tough when I was there. The Q doesn't go through any bad areas either -- I'm not uncomfortable walking around in Flatbush.
[(Bad areas). Depending on your definition of a bad area, the E isn't that bad either -- South Jamaica may be somewhat dangerous, but south Jamaica is not.]
I'm a bit confused - is there a difference between South Jamaica and south Jamaica (note capitalization on the S)?
Goofed. I meant Downtown Jamaica, where the E stops, is not that bad.
I'll address the safety issue. Ranking the lines is difficult because accurate statistics aren't always available. Just looking at the number of crimes per line can be misleading because of differences in ridership. Crime rates also vary by time of day, and I'm not sure if any available statistics reflect this.
Even so, there are some estimates I've heard. At least according to common belief, the 7, N and R rank among the safer lines. On the more dangerous end of the spectrum are the A and C in Brooklyn, both ends of the 3, and the 2 in the Bronx. YMMV.
Last week, there was a posting about service changes nest fall, including reduced headways on the B (down to every 7 minutes). There was a note added regarding the Manhattan Bridge that I couldn't understand). Someone responded about the headway not due to the Manhattan Bridge problem, adding that the D/Q is more crowded than the B, but that (if I have it right) the Manhattan Bridge can't handle more trains. A few questions: If the bridge can't handle more trains, how come the B will have more? If hte D/Q are more crowded than the B, why is service imrpoving on the B? Shouldn't these added trains be put on the D/Q? Finally, where is the equipment to improve service coming from?
Thanks,
Mike Rothenberg
(Why can service on the B be increased in the Manhattan Bridge limits capacity). The original post was that the MTA said service on the B could NOT be increased because of the bridge. The local Boro Park State Senator (mine too) claims he has been pushing for more service.
My observation in response is that the Brighton is even worse off than the B in terms of crowding, but it is also screwed by the bridge.
Larry, thanks for your reply. If the Manhattan Bridge is the limiting factor, how can there be an increase on any service using the bridge if it can't take more trains? I don't see how the B/D/Q could get any increase - apart from why it's on the B, and not the D/Q.
Mike Rothenberg
Here is a thought. what if the bridge was replace by a tunnel what would had happen with B D Q service? I recall they were spending $2 bil on studing for a tunnel under the Manhattan Br. What ever happend to that?
They would NEVER spend $2B on a STUDY. $2B would easily get the thing BUILT.
-Hank
(Spending on studies). They are spending on a study of a tunnel to replace the Gowanus Expressway, and a tunnel to bring in rail freight, and a tunnel to bring the LIRR to Lower Manhattan. City Planning is also studying the Manhattan Bridge/Williamsburg Bridge problem, but after some prevarication the DOT engineers seem to be saying the bridges will last forever (again) with all the subways and trucks you want, or so I am told. I guess you have to time these things for the chaotic transition between administrations, when no one is around to tell us bureaucrats to shut up..
I went down to the ATL this weekend. This was first time in the city(I was at the airport waiting for a connecting flight.) I rode the MARTA. It was a very nice subway. There are 2 lines: North-South and East-West. They connect at a station called Five Points. We took the North-South. The ride started as a commuter line until we got into the business district, then it was like a regular subway. The trains itself were smooth, you don't feel a thing. The stations have music playing.(Classical) The trains kinda look like R44's on the blind side. The bad part: leaving downtown, the train took about 20 minutes to arrive which normal to us New Yorkers since it was midnight. We got to the next station which is called Peachtree Ctr. We were stuck there for about an half-hour. The conductor did not say a word. He passed up and down the car without saying anything. The doors kept opening and closing. We finally left and made it to Lindbergh, here there is split between the two North branches. The train we were on terminated and went back downtown. There was another train right behind it and it too terminated at the stop we got off at, one stop before the last stop. I had mixed emotions about MARTA. The fare is also $1.50 like in NYC.
Mike--
Your late night problems with MARTA aren't that surprising. They are in the process of doing a lot of track replacement work, and they're single tracking through many areas overnight.
If you check our their website you should get a better idea of what the work is and what's going on. (Look under "service advisories".)
Michael
their web site is at :www.itsmarta.com
I apologize to the REAL motor instructors out there. Mr. Stanley Reid, et-al.
Most of the more recently promoted morons, I forgot more than they'll EVER know. Ask them some pretty simple questions, they can't even give you an answer! All they know is how to kiss the Supt.'s ass. I've seen these guys delivering mail, moving furniture, putting in water coolers, and painting offices. Tell me that's in the job description. Some of them are worthy of respect above that required by the title. Most however.....
One little sneaky bastard, recently promoted (4 mo) gets on my train. We had just spoken in the crew room 5 minutes before. He's sitting in the next car, now, acting like a passenger.
Since, as a union officer, I tend to be held to A higher standard, I was conducting my train in the usual way. Strictly according to the rules.
After about five stops, he finnaly comes over to me and starts speaking. I can see he's filling out some paper or other. When I asked what it was, he told me it was a report on my performance. Fine. I have nothing to fear. I'm super conductor. I put the rapid back in transit right? So I asked if I could see what he's writing, out of a vain sense of curiosity. And the fact that talking to this person told me he could'nt be trusted. He refused to let me see the form, and got off a few stops later.
Not trusting this little sycophant, I went to the records office soon after. Do you know that bastard wrote me up for not making announcements?
I SEE him in the next car, He sees ME looking at him. And I'm stupid enough to not use the PA?
I went and filed charges aginst this man, for violating certain rules against filling false reports, and emplyee rights and such. At first the line Sup. tried to ignore me. I wrote to the Dist. Gen Supt. and still got no response. It wasn't till I finnaly had to get Nat Ford the head of the department involved that I got results. Not quite what I was seeking but results. They of course called ME the liar. The written statements from the TSS and his Supt. showed him to be glowing. The fact that I had comendations for my announcements, and had been sought out to be in the dedicated announcement program , not withstanding. I, after all am only a conductor, lowest scum the TA employs.
I sought to have the form removed from my file. I had to settle with a letter from myself, contesting it in the file instead. That and all the further awards and letters of commendation i had already reccieved is , I am told more than enough to prove to some one reading my file that the form was wrong. But it stays.
That worm, Luis Solivan, is now with operating rules and compliance. Those are the guys that make signals red, and take down the conductors indication board, just to see what we'll do. Entrapment if you ask me. This dude's suppossed to be an expert, that he can do this? With only a year at his job? No, kiss ass is more like it. What he did to me I'm sure he did to a lot of crews, trying to make a name for himself. After all, that's how you get ahead in the world. Up the ladder on the fingers of the guys below you.
Real Motor Instructors won't do that, a Train Service Stupidvisor, WILL.
In today's Daily News, there is an article about aa woman who jumped in front of an uptown express train @ 96.
www.mostnewyork.com/citybeat
I've noticed lately a few postings about subway suicides. Does this not occur frequently in NY? In Toronto, there are many subway suicides each year, but the public is never informed. The media generally doesn't report these events and subway patrons are informed only of a "delay" of varying length. I, however, had the unpleasant experience of a young man who jumped in front of a train a few years ago. He was about five metres away from me at the time. I would think a city the size of NY would experience a greater number of subway suicides than Toronto. But judging by the fact that it appears in your newspapers, it seems to suggest a rare occurrence.
(Suicide by train) NYC's suicide rate has been far below the national average for decades. No one has ever explained to me why this is so. Perhaps when New Yorkers feel despondent, they go out and kill someone else. Given the delays involved, I wonder if subway suicides end their notes "and to hell with all of you."
No, our wackos tend to enjoy 'taking out' someone else (aka murder) rather than jump in front of a train. In this regard they are being rather polite to the rest of us by not causing subway delays.
If they're really wacko, they can jump onto the BMT express track at 14th St. They'll have plenty of time to write out a suicide note that way.
[re relative lack of "subway suicides"]
It may be because most suicides want to accomplish the deed in as non-messy a manner as possible. Jumping in front of an oncoming train is obviously about as messy an outcome as can be expected. Hence its relative rarity in New York. Shooting oneself is neater.
As far as the higher rate of subway suicides in Toronto is concerned, could less access to firearms be the main reason?
Again!!!!! What is wrong with those people.
They are NUTS!!!
In the 1980's, I can't remember what train or line, inside the train when the doors would open, was there a blue light to indicate the doors where open? I can picture it, I just can't remember.
I remember the blue lights you mention specifically on the IRT, but they were probably on B division as well. There was a single blue light on the wall opposite the cab. If I remember correctly, these lights were eliminated during GOH, when a yellow or amber light was added to each door control panel.
What is GOH?
General Overhaul.
-Hank
I vivdly remember seeing the blue lights on the R-32s as far back as 1967. Did they perform the same function as the red exterior guard lights?
Yes they do. All the other door lights in the car are called fault lights. They indicate a problem with that specific door panel or motor.
All the cars up to the 42's had the blue lights. Then, beginning with the 44's, they had one red light for each door panel. During the rebuilds of the older cars, they added the red lights (and in the 38's, yellow for some reason, and usually left the blue lights. But now I think they've disappeared. There may still be some around in some of the cars.
As I near completion of my HO R27/30 project, I'd like to detail the blind end as best as possible. All photos show the active end but I have found no photos of the blind end. Anyone have one or know where one is posted on the web?
Well you came to the right place; we have everything! (Well not really but getting there....)
It's not very close up but maybe you can blow it up on your own computer.
-Dave
Just blew it up and looked as close as I can. It appears that the crown on the end is welded. Is this correct? I wanted to approximate the number of rivets necessary and used a photo of the #2 end of an R36 assuming similar construction. Gee, that means I've got to go back and redo that end of the roof. Oh well ...
Jim (et al),
Thought you might like to know that my trip from NYP to Harrisburg this weekend included all-electric service! I got excited when I saw an (E-60, I think) locomotive waiting in the yard as we pulled into 30th Street Friday evening. Sure enough, it was used to haul us to HBG! I got to talking to a station employee in Harrisburg (one of the blue-light toting hard-hat guys -- do you call these men "switchers"?) who informed me that shortly the Keystone route was to revert to electric locomotive service completely. I wish I could have gotten more out of him, but I didn't feel like keeping him from his job. So, it looks like the Main Line catenary is in no danger of being removed any time soon.
Unfortunately, we had a diesel engine on the way back on Sunday. Furthermore, the train overshot its New Brunswick, NJ stop and had to back up! Perhaps this had to do with the fact that 3 or 4 boxcars were in between the engine and the 3 passenger coach consist; the engineer may have had trouble because of that. I imagine that can't be very safe.
Hope you enjoyed the Philly fan-trip. I must have passed right by.
-PF
If I hear correctly from recent postings, what is the top speed now for NYC Subway trains, 25MPH???
Is this really true??? If so, the only way to get around Manhattan in rush hours would be to get a bike!
I always thought that the speed would be faster some day, not slower!
If the CTA Blue Line gets extended to Schaumburg, they would up the speed, the tracks between Jefferson Park and Ohare were built to handle speeds of 70 MPH plus.
The only reason that the CTA slows down trains is work Zones, curves, and bad structure areas.
How stupid, improve safety by putting in new signals, not slowing down trains.
Is this really true???
BJ
no, its not 25mph, just ride on some trains, they run faster than 25 mph, For example, trains on the #7 from Woodside to Junstion express runs on great speed. At least 40-45 mph.
We noted a solid 45MPH on an outbound #7 (lead motor #9440) last March 15. And coming down the flyover ramp, we reached 48, assisted by the downgrade. The Redbirds can certainly cook. However, recent trips on the "Q" and "L" (through the 14 St Tunnel) found our slant-ended friends the R40 reaching the big Five-Oh in spots, mostly on the downgrades - but one on the "L" (lead motor #4399) reached and held 50 on what appeared to be level track in the tube. What a rush!
Wayne
The R-62s on the 4 have reached 50 mph in the Joralemon St. tunnel.
I still wonder exactly how fast the R-10s used to go on the express dash up CPW. I'd have to say 50, easily. Ah, the good old days. If you were entering the subway from the basement of the Museum of Natural History just as an express happened to be roaring past, you received quite a blast of air. It was even more fun to be standing in the basement at a distance from the subway entrance when an uptown express would rocket past. You'd see a big blur.
It's been a while since I've ridden in the 14th St. tunnel (almost 29 years, to be exact), but as I recall the uphill run starts almost as soon you bottom out. The BMT standards would coast downhill, but the motorman would reapply power well before the train would bottom out. If he didn't, chances are the train wouldn't make it all the way uphill. There were times when the bull and pinion gears would frop all the way to B below middle C by the time our train would reach First Ave.
Maybe I can work in a ride on the L this fall, for old times'sake.
Last month i took the # 2 train line and top speed was 50 mph on white plain line. I saw the speedmeter in the cab in front cars.
Sadly, on the IND and BMT lines, it's almost accurate to say "The newer the train, the slower the speed."
The R-46s do get the nod over the R-44s, but they're nothing like the R-32s/38s/40s, and the R-68s are `velocity challenged' to say the least.
The difference between the R-62s and the Redbirds on the IRT isn't as bad, but we'll see what happens when the R-142s arrive.
You're right about that. But to me the R68A's seem to be faster by a hair than the R68's. Tell me what you think!
Peace
DaShawn
Yes, I have noticed that aspect of the R68A. They do tend to feel faster than the ANF-Westinghouse (AdTranz) R68. Northbound "B" beats northbound "D" in the Tube consistently, again, by an anticlimber.
Wayne
The R-68s, both flavors, are still no match for the slant R-40s, or the other 60-footers, for that matter.
The factors involved in top speed are:
Gear Ratio
Horsepower
Car Weight
Field Shunting
All of these work together to determine how fast the train goes.
As far as speed. The 60 footer's creep compared to R62's and Redbirds.
No brainer. Bigger, heavier.
In the words of Ira Gershwin, it ain't necessarily so.
R-46, R-44, R-68, R-62 all have smoother and more silent ride than the R-38,R-32,R-40,R-42,R-29-36. Their speed isn't that much of a difference. Some runs are slow no matter what trains they use. But try some runs, the 75 foot trains can achieve some good speed too. 60 st, 53 st, Fulton st Tunnel, runs on 8 Av downtown AM rush from 34 to 14, 34 St-14 St 6 Av, theres good speed no matter what trains was use.
I've told you guys before, the 60th Street tube,2 track. Those good ol' slants will hit 60 if there's a Motorman running the train! A train operator, He's lucky to hit 45.
Perhaps this is an average speed?
I've been on R-32s in the 60th Street Tunnel clocked at 57mph.
--Mark
In the good ol' days when the R-62's were the new the #4 line was probably the fastest IRT line. I still like the 7th Ave express between Times Sq-72nd Street and 72nd Street-96th Street.
Wayne
Yeah, those R-62s would streak down the Park Ave. straightaway from Grand Central to Union Square.
The 7th Ave. straightaway is a good stretch. Nice, smooth track, too. The Redbirds on the 2 cruise right along.
That is right! And I remember for a short time the TA had advertisements that you could go from Grand Central Station to City hall station in 5 minutes on the #4 line. Those were the days! You can still tell when a #4 train is coming down the track, the destinctive sound of those GE Motors!
Peace
DaShawn
I've heard that same sound you speak of on other GOH trains as well. Kind of a whistling sound at speed. It's not the same as the wailing bull and pinion gears on the R-1/9s, but it is distinctive nontheless. You don't hear it on the R-44s and R-46s, though.
BTW, you could always tell when an A train of R-10s was about to skip 81st St., or a D train of R-1/9s or even R-32s. The R-10s thundered, the R-32s streaked, and the R-1/9s howled ass.
Well, the trip was yesterday, and I had a great time. Kudos to the three operators and Ed Springer from Septa. I think Rich Viable was on the Peter Witt; not too sure who ran the PCC ; and the great Gary
Mason ran the LRV. We had to pick a car up move it on the corner of 12th and Bainbridge, he was just too close for the Peter Witt to clear.
The hoagies were great and so was everything else.
Hey Bill from Maspeth, I got on the wrong trolley at the end and didn't get a chance to say goodbye. I ended up leaving at 15th st. inbound on the last trip into the subway so I could catch the "el"
to take me back to 69th st. Too bad we were running so late.
Great meeting you and keep on "motoring". Say hi to your son - hopes he stays a transit fan!
Chuck Greene
It was amazing how the PCC was the car to be on. Towards
the end of the day it was impossible to get on! Well, at least I
got to spend a good deal of time on the Brill. :)
Thanks Chuck. We really enjoyed the trip and it was nice meeting you in person. I think Steven will be working somewhere in the transit industry someday. The Peter Witt and the LRV was delayed on the final leg around Elmwood & 62nd St. due to a person being hit by a car. The PCC came in via another route. Hope to see you on the next trip!
A question for Jim K and others from Chicago.
Has the CTA Finally finished working on the Brown & Red Line's between Armitage and Belmont???
It seemed like for about the past 2 years there has been work going on there and North-bound trains crawled or went very slowly through some areas.
I rode the Brown Line last friday and was surprised to find out the train didn't slow down after it went through the curve to join up with the Red Line but rather sped up!!!
Or could this be because it was raining and the workers were off.
The ride was really nice, one station after another, with the train moving quickly between them.
BJ
[Has the CTA Finally finished working on the Brown & Red Line's between Armitage and Belmont???]
This work was finished last year.
The reason for the slow down was the CTA replaced cross-over switches just north of Armitage. Now, trains can manuver from any track to any track. None of the switches are "powered", so it really isn't an controlled interlocking.
The reason for the slow down was not only was work being done in the area, but also, the inner guard rail was lifted. Whenever either guard rail is removed train speed is restricted to 15 MPH. This is done because there is no protection (guard rails) to keep a derailing train on the structure.
I think it took quite a long time to do the work, however, the job seemed to get done quickly after the derailment of a two-car Red Line train in the area. Som damage was done to the new timber guard rails.
Southbound Red Line trains still have their speed controlled by "timed" signals approaching the subway portal, however, northbound Red Line trains are again exiting the subway at normal speed. Normal track speed for Ravenswood (Brown) and Evanston (Purple) Line trains is also now in effect.
Jim K.
Chicago
From the offical TTC website:
"All TTC transit operations have been shut down by a strike by our three unions effective 12.01 a.m. Monday April 19, 1999. The only exception is very limited Wheel Trans service for "life sustaining threats". The TTC regrets the inconvenience the union's strike will have on our loyal riders and appreciates your patience as we work with our unions to return to full service as soon as possible.
Check your daily newspaper or tune in to your local radio or TV news stations for the latest strike updates."
My two cents:
"Goodbye David Gunn! The traction fan community will not miss you!"
Jim K.
Chicago
David Gunn has not made enemies in Toronto the way he has elsewhere. The general perception is that he has improved things immensely at the TTC.
He made maintainance a top proirity again, he was honest about the buses now being made (they suck) and applied pressure for the builders to do better and he had to make do with an ever decreasing subsidy.
The TTC currently has an 81% cost/recovery ratio, BY FAR the best in North America.
As for the strike, a lot of people are siding with the Commission on this one. It's true that the TTC employees have only recieved a 1% pay increase since 1992, but they were offered 6% over three years. In these days of minimal inflation that's as good as it gets, especialy considering the TTC is cash strapped as it is.
It may be as long as two weeks before the provincial government can legislate them back to work, as one of the opposition parties is against such legislation.
Meanwhile the city is in gridlock as the public waits for this to get sorted out so they can see how much the fare increase will be.
Rob
I see more R46's on the E and more R32's on the R lately. Why? Would'nt it be better to keep the lines solidly one class of cars. I myself got on an E by accident at Union Tpke the other day and almost was late for a job at 179.
I don't like the R much, so I don't hear it, but I'm sure those R crews aren't happy. ( the Conductors at least)
The nature of the station at Parsons/ Archer makes R32's with their open end doors a better choice for E service anyway. I'd love to see the R40's racing under Queens Blvd once more, but then again they are probably way more fun out on the Brighton express........
>>R40's racing under Queens Blvd once more, but then again they are >>probably way more fun out on the Brighton
>>express........
Nah to many timers under Queens Blvd now...Keep em on 6th Ave PLEASE >G<..
Right now, there are 22 E trains in service. If I don't make any multiplication errors (Dave?) this requires 220 R-32s. Jamaica has 292 R-32s so one would think that there would be enough R-32s for the E-service. Three things are happening though.
First, we have been having an unusually high number of cars going out of service for door or propulsion problems.
Second, we've had several R-46 A-A units out of service. When they go out, we can ONLY supliment the G service with 10 car R-32s (we can't use 8-car R-46s). This was made more significant because of the extra trains required to support the G shuttle service that ended Monday.
Third, RTO is busy assembling 10-car consists of R-32 Phase I cars to be transferred to Pitkin for the Enhanced 8th Ave service due to the bridge closure.
All of these situations have led to R-46 being used on the E line. Beginning May 1, there will be 4 additional E trains and 4 less F trains (due tot he Williamsburg Bridge closure). At the same time, Jamaica will lose an additional 2 R-32s. When this happens, you'll have at least 4 R-46 trains in E service daily.
I thought that the R32 were eight car units like the R40,40M,42,44,46,68, and 68A's. Could somebody elaborate a little more here?
All IND/BMT cars (inclding R-32's) prior to the R-44 are 60 feet long, which means it takes 10 of them to make up a full train. R-44,46,68 & 68A are 75 feet long - so 8 of them makes a full train.
Wayne
Your definition of "full train" applies only to certain IND/BMT lines. Those in what I think is called the BMT Eastern Division (the J, L, M and Z) are only 480 feet long (not 600 feet). Therefore, 8 cars of R-40's or R-42's make up full trains on those lines.
OK!!! A 600 foot long train. I hope this didn't confuse you 3TrainMike.
Wayne
Steve -
Why can't an 8-car consist of R-46's be used on the G? I was on an F this morning that they said (at Fourth Ave.) might be diverted over the G tracks, and that was an 8-car train, so the problem can't be with the platform length. For that matter, why do they use only 6-car trains on the G to begin with? on a line as busy as Queens Blvd., isn't that a waste of space?
You are correct. An 8-car R-46 train and a 10-car R-32 train are both 600 feet long. It has to do with RTO operating instructions that resulted from an incident in the past. I will ask the G line Superintendent.
I remember when this got put into effect. It was simply because
a few m/m got a long R-46 on the G and still made 8car stops :)
ok, but why were short trains used on the G to begin with? It is obviously not a problem with the platform length.
I suspect the passenger counts on the G are not high enough to warrant longer trains than at present.
Exactly. I used to ride the G at rush hour, and always had a seat, with 6-car R46. Honestly, I think they could make it with 4-car trains of R46, and 6-car R32.
-Hank
They ran 4 car R46 trains about 6 years ago.The experiment lasted for less than 1 week.
That's why the G will get cut back to Court Square, PERMANENTLY when the new 63rd St river tube connection is completed. A friend at operations planning, tells me the Q will now continue from 21st St to Continental when the work is completed.
I don't work the G now. You certainly won't catch me there then. 5 or 6 trips to be sure.
If you still are a conductor, you won't have a chance. Read my cyber lips: When the G terminates at Court Square 24/7 when the new connection opens, it will be OPTO at all times.
OPTO, the crosshairs of the TA's "final solution" to it's labor problems in RTO.
I would like to find out more info about this NYTA operated freight railroad operated from Bush Terminal to TA Coney Island Yards via Sea Beach Subway Tunnel & Mcdonald Avenue BRT Streetcar Tracks.
I would also like to now if there are any photos or track maps of the South Brooklyn Railroad.
Steven, unfortunately, the SBK has not used McDonald Avenue in close to twenty years (I gather you are not from the NYC area?)
The NYCT frieght line's street right-of-way is now confined to just the waterfront area (39th street from the piers to the 4th Avenue BMT tunnel entrance. Then from the BMT 36th yards, deliveries go to Coney Island via the B line's trackage.
There major client these days is there own parent,the MTA/NYCT. I don't even think that they do work for the Davidson Pipe Co. (used to be a big waterfront industrial firm that made sewer piping for the city and other major water users).
Anyhow, it's good to see some more folks showing interest in this lesser known aspect of the NYCT system.
Doug aka BMTman
I remember two engines that had SBK markings in red livery. Are they still around??
Yes, they were recently overhauled, and the paint work is still red. However it's not quite as nice without the siver stripe and the "SBK" lettering. TA uses 'em for work trains in the BMT.
I don't know if Davidson even exists anymore. The ROW was 'adjusted' to go around the new COSTCO that was built on the site.
-Hank
Hank: yep. There's only one track to/from the waterfront yard and it goes between the Costco parking lot and the southbound Gowanus off ramp. Davidson Pipe is still active, although they now have a much smaller site in the same area: 50th Street @ 2nd Avenue. It's a big dark-green colored building (fairly new looking).
Lou: So far as I know SBK still has the 2 red w/white striped GE 50 ton diesels (N1 & N2) as their sole rolling stock. I can't say for sure if they still use them right now as I haven't seen their equipment in action for several years now. Maybe another poster knows more about the SBK locos.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug,
N1 and N2 are still out and running. Several months ago, I spotted N2 at Pelham in a new coat of red paint. As long as cars are going off to the scrap line (or delivered for that matter), N1 and N2 are going to be utilized.
However, every so often N1 and N2 are out of service for repairs and standard NYCT diesels (in yellow)substitute. In a few special cases, the SBK engines are assigned to regular work trains.
Remember that the WillyB closure is nearing. SBK's going to be busy!!!
-Constantine
As NYCTA's only Certified engineer qualified on the Bay Ridge branch of the LIRR, I offered my services for the Willie B closure transfer trains. I figured like you guys that the TA would be running cars from Linden yard to 36th Street via the Bay Ridge like last time.
WRONG
I was told that the TA doesn't want to pay NY&A Rwy for the use of the line, so they've set up East NY Insp shop with jacks and all the tools and equipment to handle the R40's and 42's while the bridge is out.
I was disapointed to hear this as I figured it would be a nice opportunity to get back to my old stomping grounds. I really used to like that branch. Trash and all.
Doug AKA BMT Man:
I Was Born At Queens General Hospital and lived in East New York, Brooklyn: Ridgewood Brooklyn/Queens & Ozone Park Queens For my first 10 years of my life. Then I was forced by my parents to move west to Phoenix, Arizona.
My grandfater worked at the IND 207th Street Yards as a "Railroad Greece Monkey" reparing subway undercarages.
When i was last visiting there in 1985 my granfather gave me a tour of the 207th st yards & shop, and also arranged for me to ride on SoBk RR. We did travel from Bush Terminal To Coney Island Via Mcdonald Ave Streetcar Tracks.
that must have been one of the last times those tracks were used - they were covered over shortly thereafter when McDonald Ave. was repaved. This may have been done at the same time the original Culver Line connection to Ninth Ave. (the Culver Shuttle) was demolished - I think they were getting rid of the entire old Culver ROW, including the SBKRR tracks that ran underneath the elevated structure. They also severed the connection to the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch then (at Avenue I) - that sure would have come in handy now for transferes between the Eastern Division and the Coney Island shops - no need for all kinds of fancy moves through Bush Terminal. That connection was, in fact, used for the delivery of either the R-44 or R-46 order to Coney Island; there is a picture of the delivery in the photo section of this website, with the subway cars on tracks running through the current site of the Brooklyn ShopRite parking lot.
Thanks, subfan, for the more detailed update on the SBK. I was under the impression that the repaving of McDonald occcured in the early 80s, but you're probably right (around that time I lived in the Flatbush/Junction area so I didn't get to McDonald all that often). I too recall that connection at Ave. I (recall the days of the famous Ave I flea market that became the Shoprite).
To Steven P.: Man, I ENVY you! Did you take pictures during your ride? Seeing pics of the SBK going down McD as late as '85 is something that I'd love to see! I'm sure -- as subfan noted -- that your excursion probably was JUST about the time the TA relinquished the SBK's original street trackage rights to the city (I'm positive there is many a car owner enjoying the trackless smooth ride along McDonald Ave. these days). :(
Add insult to injury, the TA wasted no time in tearing down the old Culver El and replacing the line's service with a bus route. The shuttle structure, if I recall was torn down in the early 80's and the vacant land underneath lay bare for a number of years. In the last few years, the Hasidic community of Borough Park -- after some political pressure -- got a series of low- to moderate housing built along the former 39th Street South Brooklyn ROW (between Greenwood and Kensington Junctions). A good railfan/historian will be able to make out the SBK tracks that continued across Dahill road and ran behind the Amoco gas station (Correction: actually it ran THROUGH the gas station!)
Thanks for the great post, subfan!
cya, Doug aka BMTman
No problem - actually, the old Culver ROW ran on 37th Street, not 39th, and was not over the street itself; rather, it was on the western side, over the old streetcar tracks, almost between 37th and 38th streets, which is why the MTA can now sell the land it was on. About the housing now being built on the old ROW - I'm don't think it's subsidized, and I doubt any major political preasure would be necessary to get it built in any case - another part of the old ROW has been paved, and is now in use as the parking lot for a local Pergament Home Center. That leads me to beleive that the MTA may just be trying to sell the land since it no longer needs it.
Your trip had to be way before 1985 if you rode along McDonald Avenue. I lived two blocks from from McDonald Avenue and during 1978 reconstruction the tracks were removed at the rebuilt LIRR overpass near Foster Avenue severing the line at that point. The tracks were also removed near Avenue X during the same project. The remaining long-unused tracks were finally paved over in 1991. The Culver shuttle el was torn down around 1984-85. I don't know if the tracks under that portion of the el were used after 1978.
Dan, thanks for the info. I thought to myself that 1985 sounded too late for the SBK running over McD. Maybe he meant 1980? That would make more sense.
Anyway you look at it, the TA shot itself in the foot by ridding itself of an alternate route to CI yards.
By 1980 the connection was definitely severed. The tracks on McDonald Avenue needed to be replaced. That would have been an expensive job. They may have been there since at least 1901. They were difficult to drive on particularly in rain or snow. The strangest part of the story is that in 1979 the DOT painted railroad crossing pavement markings on all the streets crossing McDonald Avenue, by which time there was no way for any train to run there.
The MTA should construct a simple interchange track between the Sea Beach Line and the Bay Ridge branch somewhere along the section where the lines run parallel to each other.
There used to be one. I have seen what's left of it.
Speaking of connections to the Bay Ridge line, do you know when the Canarsie "L" line spur was removed over at New Lots Ave.? One local historian believes it was removed in the '60s. I tend to believe it was done sometime in the late 70s or early 80s (it doesn't look too ancient).
BTW, the other connection to the BR from NYCT is via the Y shaped El structure (minus third rail) that originates out of the Linden shops. The El itself looks relatively new compared to the L and New Lots (#3) line structures. Obviously, this is a main route for both IRT and BMT/IND equipment to enter/depart the system.
Right now, work trains use that spur to the linden yard facility to retrieve track panels and such on almost a daily basis.
I have a video tape showing that at one time there was a TA interlocking over there. It's an offcial LIRR P.C. training tape. Ill e-mail you a still off of it. Any one else wanting to see it, just ask. I'll post the date it was made after I go dig it up in a minute. I don't thik it's more thatn a few years old. But yeah, the connection is all gone now. Might have been put in the last time we lost the Willie B. The rail was fairly new and was hardly used.
March 1990. that was when the video was made. So the track connection was there as of that late a date. That TA home signal looks real strange in a cool sort of way, on the LIRR. Too bad it ain't there no more. The flyover had yet to be constructed, so apparently this was the ONLY access to linden yard. By crossing the LIRR. I wonder if there was a special exemption to FRA rules over this?
I go off line for a few days and it seems the whole sub talk crew decided to take a ride on the SBK. I'm not sure how germane this is to the present conversation but here's a few comments on SBK clearance problems at 9 Avenue. It seems that older freight cars had a tendency to bulge with middle age and had difficulty through the 39 Street Tunnel. From what I have been told these cars could be fitted with wire straps to contain there girth.(Something like a girdle) Even with these straps the cars could not clear the lower level track C2 at 9 Avenue. These cars required a double reverse move from the 39 Street Tunnel to just west of the 9 Avenue Lower Level then reverse up the ramp into the yard and reverse again to the SBK main bypassing 9 Avenue Station. I recall riding the Culver Shuttle on weekday evenings and there usually was a trio of AB work motors sitting on track C2 at 9 Avenue. Even with the ten foot width of the AB's there was a gap of at least seven inches between the train and the platform and yet certain freight cars still could not clear on that track.
I don't know the exact legal definition but I believe that the SBK had(and has) trackage rights over the NYCTA. There was an ERA fantrip consisting of a SBK Steeple Cab and some D-Types and the train was controlled by an SBK engineer with a BMT Pilot aboard.
Greetings to all
Larry,RedbirdR33
Welcome back RedbirdR33,
I've been posting some questions lately with no reply, If you could take a look at my last message at "Gimme dem old time subway cars".
I met with a retired TA employee who told me the stuff inthe message, still can not figure out the logic with the clearance of the Myrtle Ave. el at intersections.
I rarely saw any AB work motors and I suspect the reason was that they were so underpowered, while at the same time the more powerful Lo-Vs and early R-1s were also being pulled out of revenue service.
Was it you that inquired about the reason that the Multis were not saved and put into service on the Myrtle below Bway?
Oh well, I hope you weren't off-line for the same reason I was replacing a blown modem.
Haven't heard from Steve B either.
I'm asking if anyone out there could help me with my questions in my last "Gimme dem old time subway cars message"
Thanks, Mike H
I was told by reliable sources, that the R9's were in lousy shape when the R44's showed up. Because they needed the lower numerical series for the '44's and that the R1's and 4's were in better condition (go figure?) they switched number boards. This way they kept the better cars and got the low numbers they needed for the R44.
If you ask me, the should have just not bought the R44's anyway. Saved a lot of headache. But that's nothing, wait to you see those R142's! Ha! HA, HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
Most of the R-1s, which had the same numbers as the R-44s originally, were already gone when the R-44s began arriving. It's true that the remaining R-1/9s were in sad shape by the early 70s. They were not receiving any maintenance at all, mostly due to the prevailing attitude that new cars were on the way.
Hi, Mike. I was the one who originally raised the question as to why the multis weren't used on the Myrtle Ave. el on the unrebuilt portion. Larry provided a most satisfactory explanation.
Steve...I must have missed Larry's post: what was the reason why the Multi's could not run on the Myrtle el below Bway?
Carl M.
Steve,
I asked Don aobut why the multis were never considered for the MYrtle Ave line and got lost just 1 minute into his explanation. Larry would seem to have it right, although I still want to ask Don again next time I speak to him.
I need a fix of bull and pinion gear and non -smee brake sounds. Any fantrips coming up?
For now: "Gimme dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me!"
Mike H
Gents, thanks for the info on the Q's and Mytle Ave. However, I don't know what that's got to do with the title of this thread: SBK and Bush Terminal R.R.???
Just thought I'd point that out.
Doug: Thats the best part of this website. Its like getting on a train in the Bronx and ending up in Brooklyn. You never know what route the conversation will take.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Doug,
Sorry for the meandering, but I figured any news about the BMT ids always welcome.
Rumor of the Day: The real reason that the 3rd Ave El was torn down:
The damage caused by King Kong made the cost of repair prohibitive and razing was the practical alternative.
Mike H
Mike: I would be very interested to hear what Don Harold has to say as he would certainly be the one to know.
One other point I might raise is that a five section Multi was still a single unit and the use of only one would have provided no redundancy factor in case of the failure of a key piece of equiptment.
This is why the Culver Shuttle which used to use two A-types had four car trains(two married pairs) when the R-27's were used. Off peak service on the Myrtle would not have required more than a single Multi.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,
Hopefully next time I talk to him (this weekend) it will make sense to me. Incredible the wealth of knowledge he possesses.
I agree with everyone that this website is the best thing to happen to contact others have an interest in the NYC subway annd rapid transit in general. Thank you Dave.
Mike H
Check this pictures of South Brooklyn that deliver the subway cars.
Mike: Thanks for the welcome. About running the Multis south of Bway on the Myrtle this is the first that I ever heard of it. I don't remember the Myrtle having too many curves south of Bway, in fact I don't remember any. As for the interlockings there was only one and that was at Jay St. Surely one interlocking could have been modified. The problem may have had more to do with train length as a single Multis was 179' long and a three car Q was 150'(ok 147'9''). With rush hour service a six car Q was about 300' long while two Multis would have been 358' long and perhaps unable to paltform all the doors. I think the real reason was that there was a mindset in the TA to get rid of all non-standard cars even though they still had many good years left. The Q's were retained because the el continued to serve the Brooklyn Navy Yard and there really was no chance of them being used any place else. (They were tried on the Franklin for a day but had trouble getting up the grade.)
In fairness we must mention that the Multis did seem to have a recurring problem in that sometime they failed to stop. There is an account of this on p 134 of "Subway Cars of the BMT." This potential for a disaster may have given the TA second thoughts about retaining them.
Your right in saying that relatively few AB's saw work service. This may have been due to the large number of Lo-V's available at the time which could operate on all divisions.
Will be in touch,Larry,RedbirdR33
RedbirdR33,
Well here goes: According to Don Harold the Qs were used on the Franklin Shuttle for only one day as you stated. Sometime after being pulled off the Franklin Shuttle Don asked a conductor who had that pick what could have happened to pull it off the line so quickly since it was a test to see if they were feasible for the line. Well lo and behold the conductor told Don that the crew purposely sabotaged the Q-unit so that it would fail! The reason he told Don was that the ABs that normally worked that line had much more comfortable door controls and that the motormen liked the controls and cab of the ABs better! (who would have thought!)
Don mentioned thatthe reason that the Multis were not considered for the Myrtle Ave line below Bway was something concerning clearances over the intersections. Somewhere during the explanation he lost me on the logic and reason, but he told me that proof of the clearance problem was reflected in the lights of the Qs going off while passing intersections. (darn if I know why) I'm going over to see him soon with my friend Bill Mangahas and I'll try asking him again.
Can't figure out why those D-types are out in the elements. Sounds like the TA wants to wait until they become basket cases like the ABs became, before they are forced to work on them.
By the way, you are right again aobut non-standard cars being scrapped before their time in the 1960s. That was one of the reasons that the D_types met their early demise, despite being in excellent condition.
Well once again: "Gimme dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me"
Mike H
I can't say about SBK, a little before my time. At NY&A Rwy, there were a few stations on the Montauk branch between Babylon and and Valley Stream that were a little close. It wasn't that the cars were too big. It was that freight cars tend to see as little maintainence as the FRA will permit.
Because of interchange rules, the rail carrier on whose property the defect is found is ussually responsible for repairing it. To hold down costs, a lot of car men look the other way on certain items.
Wheel wear from high mileage makes the flanges go high and the taper of the wheel's tread go even. When new the outer edge of the rim is higher than the flange side so that the axle will try to remain centered on it's own. When worn they go even and the truck will osccilate on the track while running. That's what makes the flange grow higher.
There are operating rules for certain types of cars like bulkhead flats which "truck hunt" really bad some times. If you can't maintain at least 45MPH, then you have to slow to 10MPH.
Iv'e seen this effect on subway cars too. A long express run is agood place to see it.
Also freight cars don't get the ride control devices that passenger cars do. There are no lateral or vertical shock absorbers. This in combination with excessive wheel wear might have been part of why the SBK men had to put "girdles" on the boxes.
Erik: Thank you for the explanation. This helps to explain a recurring problem we have on the Metro-North Hudson Line at Cold Spring and Garrison Station. About once a week the platforms on the southbound side are littered with wood shavings from the platform edgeing. The culprit is Conrail's Selkirk to Oak Point Freight (SE-OP) which passes in the middle of the night and cuts a chunk out of the wood.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Erik, thanks for all that info on the Bay Ridge line @ the Linden shops. Very interesting to hear that the connection to the L line was severed as recently as 1990! (I'll add that to my 'Brooklyn Rails Time-line').
Keep up the great posts!
Doug aka BMTman
Part of the tracks may have still been usable, though; there was a connection from the LIRR Bay Ridge branch to the tracks on McDonald at Avenue I - after the rebuilt overpass. At the other end, though, there may have been a problem - does anyone know where the connection between the SBKRR tracks and the Coney Island yard was? I think there is a connection from the current (elevated) F tracks to the yard at about Avenue X; there may have also been a connection from the street level tracks underneath.
That's about where I remember it being. I also remember a siding near Ave S (T?) that ran into a building on the West side of the street.
subfan, I believe there was a gated entrance along side the McD side of Coney Island yards, just beyond Ave. X. That's the location where they brought all the R-44 cars into the system.
Thanks for correcting me -- the SBK trackage from the 36th Street BMT yard was between 37th and 38th as it went east (crossed Fort Ham. Pkwy) toward McDonald Ave. Since it was running directly beneath the Culver El, the actual ROW was on the south side of 37th across from residential, row and brownstone type houses (closer to Church Ave were a number of industrial facilities that occassionaly received deliveries from SBK).
Doug aka BMTman
Doug,
Thanks for the info.
The Ave S siding was a coal siding way back. I "may" have read that it was served by DL&H carfloat deliveries to the former 25th Street carfloat pier a LOOOONG time ago - not sure.
The Ave X connection to the strret tracks was different, at least earlier back: the end of the street tracks was a Team Yard at the area of the old Culver Terminal - the point where trolleys used to turn west to Norton's Point. Street freight doubled back thru the Team Yard and turn in the Coney yards.
(...Doug - I stillllllllllllll owe you email sorry...)
Over the weekend I was able to see a few things. Like the trolley fantrip on Saturday. I was in a car going down the Schuylkill Expressway close to 1 when I saw a Kawasaki LRV crossing the Girard Avenue bridge. How was that, by the way?
Next, I went to New York yesterday and on the way up I saw on of the new LRV's for the Hudson/Bergen line(they were on a flatbed truck north of Newark).
Also, why does the Grand Central #7 station look like crap? When are they going to finish that paint job?
After they re-install the escalators at the east end of the platform, finish installation of the elevators to the mezzanine level, and finish installation of the new air-handling system.
Question..If the TA kept the R-30's how difficult would it have been to install air conditioning on them or even completely rebuilding the R-10's?
The R-30s were not retrofitted with air conditioning because it would have made them excessively heavy, plus they were slated for retirement due to poor MDBF.
The R-10s were not part of the GOH because of their age and the fact they were single cars. The only single cars to be GOH'd were the WF R-33s, and even then they did not receive air conditioning because there wasn't enough room to install all of the necessary hardware. It was felt that rebuilding the single cars would not have been cost effective.
Putting A/C in the R10 would probably have been easier than putting it into the R27/R30/R30A. The space in the ogee would have been ideal for the ducts and perhaps some of the piping; and the ends would have been fine for putting in the dropdown, similar to the PATH Class K.
A rebuilt/AC'd R10 would have been quite a sight. The only problem I could see would involve the complete replacement of the door-controls.
A nice row of PCC bullet lights down the inside corner on each side plus a set of R44-style lights down the car center, plus R44/R46 style seats in shades of blue, green, aqua and grey, and a nice light-grey linoleum floor...
Wayne
As long as these rebuilt R-10s weren't slowed down, that would be fine. Some soundproofing would have helped, too. As for the door controls, you could leave the trigger boxes in place, but replace the pneumatic door engines with electric ones. That's what the R-12s had.
Once again, because of the TA's inability to make announcments, thousands are intollerably inconvenienced!!!
F service is so bad to begin with that I usually walk the extra blocks to take the R. But naturally, when it rains I go for the closest train. This morning the F wasn't running. I had to take a Bus to Jay street, where, according to the announcement, I could catch the F. But when I go there, they announced No F. So I took the C, which was running on the F Line to West 4th. The whole ride they assured us that we could catch the F at West 4th and repromaned confused passengers for being timid about boarding a C train on the F track. At West 4th, they waited for the C train to close it's doors and pull out of the station before telling us the F train was going express to 34th Street. Not given any choice, I got on and got the R at 34th Street back downtown. 3 trains and a bus just to get to 34th and Broadway!!!
Incidentally on the Smith Street bus, I made a free connection within the 18 minute time frame. My card said Invalid but the driver told me that because the F line is the "Worst in New York" he lets it slide as a curtesy for scores of passengers along Smith Street. Is that TA policy?
I think F riders should organize a boycott to make their feelings known. What have we got to loose??? We have to take 3 trains and a bus to get to New York anyway.
What time was this?
I did ride early and got an F at 7:30am at 50 Rock... I hope it is cleared up by the PM rush...
This was shortly after 9 Am.
There is something about the rain that makes the F worse than it already is. And there is something about Delays and Changes in Service that makes the TA ignore their costomers.
The problem with the F is the congestion in Queens, which the 63rd St tunnel is supposed to fix. If you get an early F, it is straight from the the Coney Island Yard or passed through Queens before things get bad. But if you travel in late, you're waiting for an F that had to carry heavy crowds through Queens, then turn around at Coney to head back in the Brooklyn riders. If things go wrong in Queens, you get screwed in Brooklyn.
Is that what happened this morning?
Can a problem in Queens really wipe out F service from 9th Street all the way to 34th Street???
Do the problems in Queens also explain why the A wasn't running???
Do problems in Queens affect the minds of the people who are supposed to make announcements???
This is why every other train is turned at Kings Highway (i thought)??
No, what affects their minds is getting bad info from the Control Center. When there is a problem in Queens, the crews on the scene relay info to Control, where decisions are made to attempt to rectify the problem. Control then issues a radio message giving their slant on the problem to all crews. This message usualyy ends with "We expect this to last to ???? ( fill in a time)" Your Brooklyn crew has only this second-hand info to give to you. they don't have any real idea of what happened or how long it will take to get regular service running again.
After all, once service falls behind, all it can do is fall behinder and behinder.
They don't call the culver line the "F" train for nothing!! (We always used to call it the "F"-up line).
WORD! Like we say in Brooklyn, F doesn't stand for FAST! G doesn't stand for Good!
I thought the F was for ForEVER!!!
I had a friend who was fired from his brokerage firm because he was late due to the F, and had a more descriptive name for what the F stod for.
I wonder which firm that was? I work at a brokerage firm and it's nearly impossible to get fired. (If you saw some of the people who work here you'd agree with me.) Being late one day isn't going to get you fired. That guy was probably a chronic late show-up or there was some unusual circumstance (like they lost a big deal because he didn't show up or call in...)
We can be late, we used to get transit delays of over 30 minutes. HR would call transit and confrim. I always gave a job number if I could get it from the crew or tower.
They have changed the rules. Now I have to call to get a confirmation of transit delays.
As to lateness if I'm late more than 17 times in 3 months (a 1/4) they will dock me double time for minutes late from vacation. Once vacation is used up or if I don't have vacation to cover they will dock double time in cash.
(Lateness) One thing about working at the TA back in 1986-88: a transit delay was always accepted as a reason to be late. Now I can be late whenever I want -- I just don't get paid for the time I am not here. When is the trains are late, I have to use vacation time.
Lateness at the TA is not automatically excused. At least they should not be automatic. According to the Collective Bargaining Agreement, a lateness will be excused only in the case of a verifyable & significant disruption in mass transit. Significant disruptions have been interpretted as delays of 20 minutes or more. Supervisors who grant train delays for minor problems or who do not verify delays are actually guilty of "Payroll Padding".
I won't say getting fired is impossible where I work, because it does happen. Unless a major rule infraction is committed, you go through a series of verbal and written warnings before you're let go. If you don't show up for three consecutive days without calling in, you're considered as having voluntarily quit.
We get four hours of sick leave per month, which can be carried over indefinitely with no limit. You also have the option of cashing in unused sick pay at the end of each year. In my case, it works out to be a nice bonus. I've missed exactly 1/2 day due to illness in 11 1/2 years. You don't get reimbursed for unused sick leave if you leave the company, but unused vacation time is compensated for. We also have two personal holidays which can be used anytime during the year in addition to company holidays and vacation time.
Four HOURS of sick leave a month? Does this mean you get 6 days at the beginning of the year, or does it really appear as 4 hrs/month?
It accumulates at a rate of 4 hours per month. I think this is done on purpose to prevent abuse. I should also point out that this pertains to hourly and non-exempt personnel. The salaried folks have a different structure and do not accumulate sick leave. We do have both short term and long term disability benefits if you are injured or otherwise incapacitated.
He had received previous write-ups, and the F delay was the last straw. He's now married with kid and living outside Philly (and I haven't heard of any problems with SEPTA as of yet)
I have been working on a new project to connect Staten Island to Manhattan and points north by rail. I never knew that there was so many connections to Manhattan once in New Jersey.
Since Staten Island gets no direct rail service to Manhattan, and Hartford gets virtually no service at all by rail to ANYWHERE, my plan calls for a commuter rail service between Staten Island and Hartford.
Trains would run every 20-30 minutes between Staten Island and Co-op City, and every 40-60 minutes between Staten Island and Hartford.
For my plan, only 19 track-miles have to be rehabilitated, one junction built to connect with the Amtrak Northeast Corridor, and several stations built. Since I plan to use ICT-VT trainsets, I do not need to electrify the North Shore Railroad.
Let me know your opinions and any info I need to know.
Groovy, let's do it!!!
Would this run through Brooklyn/Queens?? or Manhattan.
How about some stops in the Boroughs Where people could catch the train either way.
On the MAC, the demo version would stop at Penn Station in Manhattan. The full service adds Randalls Island, whose main purpose would to be a transfer station.
The MAC was designed as the main line, and several other routes are to be attached. One line goes from Bay Ridge-Stamford or Valley Stream while another goes from Co-op City-Valley Stream.
Don't worry. There will be some stations in Brooklyn and Queens.
NYC to Hartford, CT ? I remember AmTrak doing that with ONE Budd RDC car ... doesn't sound like a money maker ... sorry
Mr t__:^)
Commuter service from Hartford to Staten Island every hour?? Do you have any idea how far of a distance that is? And through New Jersey, no less. That's a distance of well over 110 miles. There's no way this would work as a commuter service. Amtrak service from Hartford to NYC takes nearly three hours over the single-track Inland Route. Imagine if there were more stops and less comfortable seats? Even as an Amtrak service, it's not very popular or making money. It didn't suprise me when a conductor told me that Amtrak was going to end its service to Hartford. Not many people want to go to Hartford, because there's not much to do there in the way of entertainment and it's almost entirely a dirty crime-infested ghetto. Nobody goes there at night.
Even Hartford's TV stations don't focus heavily on Hartford. They don't want to. That's why they call themselves "Connecticut" stations, but they do not serve the entire state as they claim to. You get NYC TV stations in SW Conn. You're supposed to, as it is part of the NYC tri-state area and nowhere near Hartford even though WFSB/CBS 3 says it serves Bridgeport and Stamford and WTIC/Fox 61 (Fox 61???) says it serves Danbury. They focus on the towns that are closest to Hartford, New Haven, New London, and Waterbury, mostly areas that don't have a 203 area code. But there's not a lot on Hartford other than crime or the Patriots moving there (which may not happen as the NFL is against it). Then again, not even the Patriots can save Hartford!
I agree that Hartford does need addtional train service. Traffic jams on I-84 and I-91 are rather bad. A commuter line between Hartford and New Haven would really work, considering how successful the Shore Line East is. But not all the way to New York. Even the Waterbury service does not have a lot of people headed for the Big Apple...it is aimed at intra-state CT commuters. Waterbury to NYC is 90 miles. If the service went all the way to Grand Central, it wouldn't last long.
(Rail service to Hartford). Hartford should have pushed to get the electrified service (ACELA) through there, rather than Providence. It used to have a cluster of financial services companies linked to NY, and fast service (down to a meeting and back in one day) might have made it more attractive. But AMTRAK is political, and the shore route brought in another state.
Connecticut is the richest state. Its taxes are low because there are so few poor people (they are all in just a few places, Hartford among them). Maybe it should use its own money to electrify the line from New Haven through Hartford to Springfield, and try to get Mass. to electrify the line from Springfield to Boston. Then ACELA could split, with half from Washington to Boston via New London and Providence, and half via Hartford, Springfield, and Worchester. That would probably do more for Downtown Hartford than the Patriots. And it would probably be cheaper.
[Connecticut is the richest state. Its taxes are low because there are so few poor people (they are all in just a few places, Hartford among them).]
Connecticut has a lot more poverty than you might expect. Many cities beside Hartford have significant numbers of poor people: New Haven, Bridgeport, Waterbury, New London, Willimantic, Middletown and Meriden, just to name a few. There's also quite a bit of poverty in the small towns and rural areas in the eastern part of the state, near the Rhode Island line. Even in high-income Fairfield County, parts of Stamford and Norwalk are poor and run down.
BTW, Connecticut's taxes are low NOT so much because it "has so few poor people", but because the wealthy their pay very high real estate taxes to make up for the lower across-the-board taxes. Also, the wealthy of the state can afford to contribute quite a bit to various "social programs" as tax right-offs -- saving the state from "dipping into the savings" to cover those costs.
(Taxes are not low, Connecticut is not rich). Yes some taxes are high, and some people are poor. But when you add up all the state and local taxes as a share of income, they are low. Paying $10,000 in property taxes when you make $300,000 per year is a lower share of income than paying $3,000 in property taxes when you make $60,000 per year. And when you look at the share of the population that is poor, it is low also -- in 1996, it was estimated to be 11.7 percent in Connecticut, compared with a national average of 13.7 percent and 16.7 percent in New York State (up to 25 percent in New York City).
I still think it is in Connecticut's interest to fund electrification of that line.
I agree. The Connecticut DOT should double-track and electrify the Inland Route to Hartford. Of course, we're talking about a state that has very little public transit (if any) in the northern part except for the Hartford area and a state government that has shown little interest in improving public transit in that region. We're also talking about a governor who wanted to do away with all commuter train service to Waterbury, Danbury and New London. There hasn't even been a thought given (so far) to improving rail service to Hartford for Patriots games.
I recently read in a Hartford weekly entertainment newspaper that there had been a proposal to operate commuter train service between Hartford and New Haven in 1993. The small article even mentioned that the estimated operating expense would be around $3.5 million (I'm assuming diesel-hauled trains here) per year and that three state senators are attempting to push the 1993 proposal again. I'm sure there are other expenses, but I think something like this is affordable and should be done. If ConnDOT can spend the millions of dollars that it is to improving the catenary on the NE Corridor and the Stamford station and if it really cares about making it easier to get around in the state, then surely it can and should improve rail service to its capital.
I think it's only about 5 years ago, but certainly no longer than 10 years ago, that the Connecticut DOT was involved in REDUCING the train line between New Haven and Hartford from two tracks to one. I suspect it's totally unrealistic to think that the Connecticut DOT would even think about admitting it made a mistake by proposing to double-track that stretch.
You're right, at least they replaced two with one new pair of rails.
This would present a major obstacle to cummuter rail service, unless the installed a number of passing tracks, i.e. at stations.
P.S. Philip at Hartford ... you have nothing to say about this ?
(One rail). For half the ACELA service to pass through Hartford, they'd probably have to install new rails anyway, and get rid of grade crossings. That and electrification would be expensive, but I still think Connecticut would benefit from the investment.
Connecticut residents doing business in the captial would be able to get there by train, and employees of Downtown Hartford companies going to meetings in New York or Boston would be able to get there by train. This could help Hartford attract office-based businesses priced out of these areas. Moreover, fewer trains along the shoreline would help reduce the conflict with boats going under the drawbridges.
Commuter service? I doubt it. Everyone up there has a car. Unlike the I95 corridor, the traffic is not so bad, and unlike Manhattan, Downtown Hartford has plenty of parking for its diminishing level of economic activity.
[Commuter service? I doubt it. Everyone up there has a car. Unlike the I95 corridor, the traffic is not so bad, and unlike Manhattan, Downtown Hartford has plenty of parking for its diminishing level of economic activity.]
Sorry, I can't agree with you on this one. There are serveral ROW in and around Hartford, i.e. to East Hartford (accross the river), as well as to the North (Stores), West (Farmington) & South (Wethersfield) where a number of towns have built up into sizable communities. Even Meriden (South on existing line) isn't that fare away by rail. I'm afraid I don't know too much about CTransit service up there, e.g. do they have Express bus service that might be replaced with rail service to carry more folks/quicker to downtown.
Also regarding traffic (auto) ... there's a lot more of them then when it used to take me 1/2 hour to come from the South/East about 30 miles. I understand the same trip is about 45 to 1 hour w/lots of traffic as you get closer to Hartford.
Parking ... lots of ... I think that depends on who you work for. I worked for one of those insurance companies, West of the river & parking wasn't great, but then we need some input from someone who commutes there everyday (there are a couple who visit this site).
Mr t__:^)
[I'm afraid I don't know too much about CTransit service up there (Hartford), e.g. do they have Express bus service that might be replaced with rail service to carry more folks/quicker to downtown.]
There are a number of express buses from various suburban spots to downtown Hartford. When I last worked in the area, back in 1983, ridership was quite high. While downtown Hartford has declined considerably as a retail/entertainment destination since then, I'd say that the number of office workers has increased, so express bus ridership probably remains pretty decent.
[Hartford should have pushed to get the electrified service (ACELA) through there rather than Providence] Service to Hartford will have the Acela name, Acela Regional, just like Empire and Keystone service will. I'm surprised that the service to Hartford is going to still run, although I still it's living on borrowed time. Electrification of that line was never planned because according to the same Amtrak conductor, the Inland Route has 39 railroad crossings, although there are lots of crossings on the NJT North Jersey coast line and it's electrified up to Long Branch. Then again, it's not a high-speed line.
I'm actually glad that electrification is going through Providence. I've only been through it, but I know people who have been both there and Hartford and they all seem to like Providence better. Maybe I should go and visit.
Providence is a small city & Brown Univ. takes up a lot of it. They've spent a lot of effort fixing up the old bldg & waterfront area. What was interesting when I did a couple of AAA games there & toured the city on a Saturday ... downtown was dead, i.e. nobody there, so we had a lovely lunch in an empty bar on the water.
Mr t__:^)
Being overshadowed by Boston (which is 40 miles to the north) doesn't help Providence either. You can take the T from South Station there. I think it has much to do with the way people think of the city. It did have lots of trouble in the '50s, '60s, and '70s and a lot of people moved out. Of course that happened to almost every central city. I've read that there's been quite a bit of improvement like you mentioned about the old buildings and waterfront and crime is down. I even read that Amtrak is adding a station near the T.F. Green Airport. But if downtown is still dead on Saturdays, then Providence is not out of the woods yet.
As someone who lived in the Hartford, Connecticut, area for 28 years, I take issue with your negative description of Hartford. I suspect you have never been there and, therefore, are speaking from ignorance. Surely, it is not utopia, and the downtown could be a little nicer, but it really is not a bad place to live. However, commuter service from Staten Island is not what Hartford really needs. P.S. One of the liveliest night-areas in Hartford is the Union Station area, right by the railroad station, which also serves as the inter-city bus terminal. The street outside the station really hops every evening.
[As someone who lived in the Hartford, Connecticut, area for 28 years, I take issue with your negative description of Hartford. I suspect you have never been there and, therefore, are speaking from ignorance. Surely, it is not utopia, and the downtown could be a little nicer, but it really is not a bad place to live.]
What appear to be excessive "urban pathologies" in Hartford can partly be attributed to its small geographic area. Hartford is only 17 square miles, which is considerably smaller than normal for a city of ~125,000. As a result, the more affluent neighborhoods that one would expect to be outlying sections of the city are actually separate municipalities. Only the closer-in, generally poorer neighborhoods are within the city limits.
I HAVE been there. Downtown is actually the nicest part of Hartford. I've waited for buses at the station before. It was not a pleasant experience at all. You get accosted by beggars constantly. The other areas of Hartford are probably not as bad as the South Bronx or North Philadelphia, but they are not pleasant. Nice areas such as West Hartford and Wethersfield are not part of Hartford (was maybe that where you lived). You say you lived there for 28 years. Maybe it was different when you first lived there.
I agree ... I used to work there & had to visit recently and saw frequent bus service, nice park downtown & generaly clean city.
However, it does make the papers a lot.
Back to the thread ... NYC to Hartford service no, the AmTrak service that goes thru on it's way to Springfield & Albany should be enough.
Mr t__:^)
[A commuter line between Hartford and New Haven would really work, considering how successful the Shore Line East is. But not all the way to New York. Even the Waterbury service does not have a lot of people headed for the Big Apple...it is aimed at intra-state CT commuters. Waterbury to NYC is 90 miles. If the service went all the way to Grand Central, it wouldn't last long.]
Shore Line East's success is a matter of debate. I believe that ridership is above expectations, but the state has been complaining about the high subsidies required and even proposed shutting it down completely. It's safe for now, fortunately.
Waterbury ridership indeed is aimed mostly at intrastate commuters. That's no surprise, given the schedule. If you're going all the way to Grand Central, there's one morning train that leaves Waterbury about 6:15 and gets into GCT (with a connection at Bridgeport or Stratford) around 9. While that's not too bad, the real trouble is in the evening. The connection leaves GCT at 6:26 and doesn't arrive in Waterbury (again with a Bridgeport connection) until a few minutes before 9. That's just too long a day for most people to tolerate.
Yes, in 1997, Gov. Rowland did want to get rid of SLE and Waterbury service, and nearly called for the end of Danbury service. Good thing that hasn't happened. Even if SLE is not a great success, Hartford-New Haven service could be more successful because it is between Connecticut's two principal cities (Bridgeport is CT's largest city, but is part of the NYC area). However I'm not sure how bad I-91 gets during rush hours, but it is up to eight lanes wide in some areas so it must have some kind of heavy traffic.
I hope you included the costs of building an entirely new rail line (Grades, seperations, new rail) from Port Richmond, SI to St. George, SI. I'm wondering NOW how much of the ROW will be seized when the city build the new stadium.
-Hank
Is there any direct current (not abandoned) rail connection between the LIRR Bay Ridge line and the South Brooklyn RR tracks at Bush Terminal? If so, where is it? If not, durring the current disruption in Williamsburgh Bridge service, how will trains be transfered between the eastern division and the Coney Island shops? Rail barge is a possibility, but it seems a bit cumbersome.
[... during the current disruption in Williamsburgh Bridge service, how will trains be transfered between the eastern division and the Coney Island shops? Rail barge is a possibility, but it seems a bit cumbersome.]
I wouldn't imagine that the Eastern Division fleet is scheduled to undergo any work during the disruption that has to be handled at Coney Island. If anything did come up, the cars could be moved by flatbed truck. Trucking indeed seems to have replaced rail as the primary means of moving mass transit cars off site.
If you look off to the south while riding the Sea Beach line between Ft. Hamilton Pkwy. and 59/4 stations you'll see three tracks belonging to the LIRR. They're leased to the NY&A Rwy now.
This is what we at NY&A called the interchange. It's where we left cars for NYCHRR to pick up. And where they used to leave presents for us.
The one farthest from the Sea Beach is called the"wall" track and the middle one "main" and the closest to the transit line is "one". Out of veiw under the BQE, is where they all trail into one track and head west toward the river. Before they get there it curves north and upto the street level run we should all be familiar with. That's the connection with SBK, and the transit system.
I don't know if this still goes on, because NY&A has cut back on it's dealings with NYCH. NYCH's former general manager, a VERY nice gentleman, left there to work for NY&A. I assume that his people were not happy about this, him having some 25 years at NYCH.
Whenever we went all the way out to Bay Ridge (Tue/Thu)
we would ussually find the cars left with no hand brakes and no skate. (a chock like device, which cannot be removed without a locomotive) Several times the cars had run through the derail and went on the ground. NYCH's position on this was that since we found em that way it was our problem. Supposedly they had left them secured. This was a piece of lumber under a wheel to them.
Now on the RR we don't make a big deal out of a derailment like the TA does. We would just roll up our sleeves, and find some trash lyiing about that could serve as a ramp to re-rail the car or in one case the engine. Unless a car was on it's side. Then it got costly, cranes and such.
All of us got really tired of this every other week though.
Freight cars that pass over to Long Island from conrail don't have to be checked for clearances, because the low bridges in the Bronx prevent NY&A from getting oversized cars. Cross Harbor has no such restrictions. Several times I went down there,only to come back "light engine" because those feinds had left us over size cars. LIRR is a plate "C" railroad. NYCH would leave plate "F"!
I'm sure you all know what happened in july of 97 to the TA"s over pass on the Myrtle Av. line!
Ah, I do miss that place.
"it curves north and upto the street level run we should all be familiar with. That's the connection with
SBK, and the transit system."
I thought the SBKRR trackage was down at 39th Street - do you meen that it runs all the way west to 64th? if so, where does it run? I know that there are tracks on 2nd Avenue, but I thought that SBKRR's tracks were only the ones that run from the yard at Bush Term. (at 2nd Avenue and 39th Street) to the 9th Avenue yard (at 36th Street).
The SBK tracks end at the interchange yard on second ave. All the other ones that head south and into the yard at first ave are NYCH. To travel between SBK and LIRR you must use the NYCH tracks.
subfan, I believe Erik was talking about the SBK having the jurisdiction when needed (like scrapping of old cars) to run over portions of the NY&A/Cross Harbor trackage. The actual SBK ROW is the same old 39th @ 2nd Ave. east to the 36th Street yards.
Jurisdiction is not the word. SBK had rights, which were paid for. NYCH is not about to give things away. The TA can't strongarm a private business IT needs. But then again, they detest paying any one for anything, maybe that's why the are fixing and upgrading the interlocking where SBK meets the West End Line.
I was given a tour of Coney Island shops yesterday by the
superintendent himself and I was pleased with the tour
except for one thing. He said the R40-m-42s will be
retired in the near future when they put an order in for
new B Division cars. Why would they get rid of the 40s I
thought they were one of the most reliable cars on the B
Division system. He told me that was the 32-38 cars. I
originally thought The R44s were going to be the first to
go.Need help wit this one guys. they say the R40s and the
42 are junk.
I got my first PAYING job on trains with Sumirail Ltd. providing the warranty service for the R40'sat the Coney Island Maint. shop. I'll tell you this, those cars are some serious rust buckets. Only the sides of the cars are stainless steel. Any where you see pain is either fiberglass or regular steel. When it rains outside, it also rains inside on them and the R38's too.
Underneath they have the same good running gear that all the other cars have, so my guess is if they are going to get rid of any cars first it would be them for the reasons I just mentioned. If you follow that logic, then the R32, the oldest 60' Stainless (100% Stainless I might add) cars will probably out live the R42's. Maybe even the R44's too. But I really doubt th R46.
They're not retiring any cars with the B div. shipment. They need the additional cars for the 63rd St service, plus to fill in the shortage left when scrapping the R-30's.
Erik, thanks for the info. I totally forgot that the R-38, 40, and 42 series are NOT totally made of stainless steel. Only the body sides and the blind ends are stainless. The roofs are plain steel -- painted silver to mimic the stainless look, no doubt -- and the front ends are fiberglass.
Good point!
Doug aka BMTman
Say it ain't so, John!
I hope that what you are saying about none of the cars will be retired. The superintendent said it is not the B division as it is with the A division with a shortage of cars during the rush hour. Long live The R 40-40m-42s. Scrap the R44-46s instead. I hate 75 footers anyway.
I wouldn't mind keeping the R-46s. They're OK. If the R-68s could be sped up, I could tolerate them. The R-44s ought to be pushed off the Palisades into the Hudson River.
I agree: long live the 60-footers. May the R-32s live to be 50-plus.
A a member of the train crew, I'd have to disagre with that part about the 75' cars.
As a rail fan, there's a reason I call myself "used to be MrR46"
The body determines how long the car stays in service, not the running gear or the interior. As long as the body of the car is sound, the car is fixable. Once the body starts to go, it becomes less and less economical to repair. Fortunately, most of the parts under the floor of a subway car are reusable to some extent. That's why the Redbirds are going to go. The bodies are held together with duct tape, bondo, bubble gum, and paint. Only the maintainence people know what the frames look like.
-Hank
I hope you are kidding about the bubble gum...... :) :) :)
I hope you are kidding about the bubble gum...... :) :) :)
The way I read your post is that the R40M and R42 MAY be retired in the not-too-distant future. That leaves the original Slant R40.
The Slant R40 is 31 years old; the R40M are 30, the R42 are also 30.
Those cars are too young to be retired. Nothing a little Bondo won't fix on those leaky roofs.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
It's all about money, with these people. And the rust problem extends into and behind the walls. A potential wiring and fire problem. Sorry, I love those R40's too. But facts are they're probably history in 5 years or less.
That means we railfans will have only the R-32s and R-38s left for front end viewing.
Well, if the R-142s are going to be that bad, we may have the Redbirds to ride in for a while longer.
Yes, they're rusty, but that's better than beautiful new trains catching fire due to faulty wiring (supposedly the problem with the first batch of R-142s)
I commented on that before. But here goes again.
Having worked for both Kawaski, and Bombardier, the two are light years apart. KHI is almost fanatical about quality control. I saw them reject an entire shipment of door locks for a batch of MBTA BiLevel coaches because the finish on the metal was'nt shiny enough.
On the other hand, Bombardier hires unskilled labor at the plants. The management has a superiority complex. If there is a problem that a worker finds on the assembly line, he won't say anything. Why should he, if he's only going to be yelled at for holding up production.
While I was providing warranty service at NJT on the CometIV coaches, we were ordered to make a modification to the light fixtures. This was a simple thing that should have been caught at the plant. The main light flourescent tube had the emergency light fixture mounted so close that normal vibration would make the tube shatter. Or the reversible seats at the ends of the car when facing the center of the car would hit the wall. Kawasaki would never have allowed a car like that to leave the assembly plant. Bombardier had already shipped a dozen when NJT complained.
The TA hasn't even reccieved these cars yet and already these problems are making themselves apparent.
Then there's the AC traction problem. These motors have controller systems that have almost NO moving parts. Sounds good on face value. The Arrow III cars that I worked on are extremely complex. For example: There are two speed sensors on each axle, one for each direction. These are for the traction control computer only, and have nothing to do wth the engineer's speedometer. The power modules and choppers, and the computers are VERY expensive to purchase. The logic behind the outlay of cash is that the lack of moving parts means less car inspectors to pay for to check, and replace contact fingers and the like.
I like AC, don't get me wrong. The damn things are strong! 760 Hp per pair. (measured that way because one car carries the computer for two, and the odd car has only one motor truck) Iv'e seen one live car, pull 7 dead ones through the hudson river tube at 60MPH, and then do 80 on the Corridor.
But considering who the TA employs, and the dusty envoirnment these cars will have to operate in, I don't have a lot of faith that these cars are going to be the star perfrmers that the R62's were. I se R44 in 1973 all over again.
Hopefully, the motorman will have a little more room in the cab than on the 44's tho.
I'd have to assume that repairing the propulsion systems on these cars, the first thing to be replaced would be the power control module. They'd probably just swap them out, and send them to an outside electronics firm for repair. As long as the componants are sealed well, they shouldn't have any problems. But then, steel dust gets into some strange places, and they usually don't bother replaceing the Air Conditioning filters.
-Hank
That's exactly how it's designed to be repaired. And what was/is done at NJT.
"But then, steel dust gets into some strange places, and they usually don't bother replaceing the Air Conditioning filters."
Hank, on the contrary, since going to composition brake shoes, steel dust is virtually non-existant (at least to the extent that it was in the 70s). As for AC filters, they are replaced on every inspection cycle throughout the year (roughly every 6-8 weeks) and during the peak cooling season, most shops (especially where the cars run under ground a lot) replace the filters far more frequently.
Steel (cast iron) may no longer be the main component, but there is SOMETHING magnetic about the swirls of dust I see on a daily basis stuck to the celing of my cab!
As usual, you guys do a great job keeping all the R32s and R46s running smoothly and reliably. Here are two little things we saw today:
#3492 - glass cleaners are needed on the end sign. Note this train
was seen on the "C" so I don't know if this is Pitkin's or
207th Street's problem - car had green dots & markers.
#5898 - the numbers inside the car read "9898" at the cab end
and "8898" at the blind end! Somebody ran out of #5 stickers.
The "E" train cars look much cleaner lately, thanks.
AND we saw a Slant R40 on the "B" today, of all things. I'll post the numbers later.
Wayne
I don't know about those R46s running smoothly.Last Sunday,an R train had stuck brakes at Queens Plaza.On Monday or Tuesday,An R train had some sort of explosion under the train at 86st in Bklyn.
Ah, but that's just two trains, the four "F"s we rode on yesterday were all shipshape. Things like that can happen to any train. BIE or stuck brakes at Queens Plaza - couldn't have picked a worse place to break down, eh?
Wayne
The explosion was due to the train striking debris on the roadbed. No significant damage was done. The alleged stuck brake condition could not be duplicated when the train was brought into the yard. The projected MDBF for the R-46s for April is running at around 120,000 miles which is not too shabby....
Let's hope that B train brought back some excitement on those express dashes along 4th Ave. in Brooklyn and 6th Ave. in Manhattan.
Relating to another post: Did anyone get a chance to time the slant 40 B on the 34th St. to West 4th run. There was an earlier thread saying it wasn't any faster than an R-68, and that just didn't sound (or feel) right.
When Simon and I were on the "Q" back on March 15, #4150 went 34th to West 4th in 2:17. The "B" I saw Saturday was just in passing at West 4th Street; I was transferring from the "F" to the "A" en route to Penn Station at the time, trying to catch the 3:05 Babylon train.
Next time I'm on the northbound I will time it as well.
Wayne
I have timed the slant-40 from 34 to W. 4 and back. The quickest jaunts were 2:10 downtown and 2:30 northbound. As promised, when I am in the city this weekend I will use my altimeter watch to measure the depth difference between the two stations, to verify it really is "downhill" from 34 to W. 4. I'll also try to get out to Roosevelt Island to answer that question. Hopefully I'll get this done before the Fare-well to Willie-B ride Fri eve at 6:00 p.m. leaving from Canal Street Station.
I wish I had timed an express dash up CPW when the R-10s still ruled on the A. I may do just that this fall and see how the R-38s do.
#3994 was in fine form, charging down Central Park West last Saturday morning. I think we made it from 125th to 59th in about 6 to 7 minutes, give or take a few secs. We were slowed by Grade Timers round about 81 Street, which is par for the course.
Wayne
Hopefully, the new cars will be at least a tad faster than the R-44s and, for that matter, the R-68s.
If the R-142s have any major problems after delivery, hopefully, they will show up quickly, before the scrapping of the Redbirds is in full gear and they run short of IRT cars (as if the Lex doesn't have enough overcrowding problems already)
the redbirds will be here for quite a bit after the new cars arrive. Once the new cars arrive they've got to be broken in and kinks worked out before an entire shipment is accepted. I read someting about a late 1998 delivery and May is upon us and not a single R142/142a is on the property yet!
The Redbirds definitely need to be kept until the R-142s have a chance to prove themselves. Otherwise, you'll have deja vu all over again, as Yogi Berra would say. It happened more than once.
If they weren't planning to keep at least SOME of the Redbirds, they would have opted for "deferred maintenance" and not fixed their many patches of rust and rot. This is true primarily of the R33 and R36 models, most of which have had their rust spots around the doors and windows repaired and repainted, a nice job was done by the Body Doctors of the 207th Street Shoppe, no doubt.
Wayne
Yeah, Wayne, how about giving an Earl Schieb Special to the fleet of Slant R-40s to keep 'em looking good?
Steve B., LarryRedbirdR33, Wayne AKA Slant40, and all you railfans out there:
Spoke to a retired TA employee in the know tonight; he told me that the D-types were able to get up to 61 MPH on a good, straight and level run, not bad for one of the heaviest cars (per foot) to ever grace the system. As for the ABs; well let's just say they had better pick up than the D-types and R9s but their top speeed left something to be desired.(say a little over 40MPH)
Can't remember who wanted to know why the Multis weren't kept for service on the Myrtle Jay Street run? Well, according to this source, the Myrtle El below Broadway had tight clearances over the intersections that would not allow the use of cars equipped with subway type shoes. Originally the Qs were equipped with el type shoes but did receive subway type shoes in the late 1950s. It was decided to upgrade the el during that period and it amounted to strengthening the pillars with concrete around their bases. The Multis were ten feet wide and would have entailed shaving the platforms in addition to costly modifications to intersection clearances for the 3rd rail. I tried to follow his narration but he lost me on this. I was then informed that because the Qs now had subway type paddle shoes which jutted out further, over intersections a false wooden guide rail would allow the paddles to go vertical, allowing closer clearance. That is why he told me that if you watched the Qs at night on the El below bway, the first 2 cars lights would go out then on, at which time the 3rd car in the set's lights would go out.
Does any of this make sense to anyone out there? HELP!
Mike H
An incident was related in the latest TWU Newspaper. A certain conductor has been working at his craft for 30 years. He has 300 sick days in the bank. Recently, he came down with the flu and called in sick. While he was sleeping, someone from the TA called checking up on him that he was home, so his wife had to wake him up. Shortly thereafter some TA person shows up at the house checking up on him. So this man gets disturbed again. But that wasn't all. Still again, they check up on him on the phone a second time. Sure, a wisenheimer may decide to leave the house after the TA checks up on him, yet this man has proven throughout his career to the TA that he does not abuse his sick time. So the wife tells the caller where to go, and writes a letter to Larry Reuter documenting this TA abuse. Needless to say, Larry doesn't answer the letter, but some bureaucrat does apologizing for the inconvenience, yet explains it is TA procedeure. I know there are certain company people on this site who stick up for the TA regularly, and I may have a reputation for putting the TA down, but I am just telling like it is. The TA has every right to check up on sick leave abusers, but is this something I have to look forward to if I get sick with my almost 20 years on the job and 200+ days in the bank? I also apologize airing our dirty laundry here, yet this is also a part of life down the subway. Now I ask non TA contributers to this site: does YOUR bosses treat their dedicated employees like this?
No, although in my business (I'm a computer systems administrator for a financial company) there's no difference between sick and vacation time (it's all "Paid Time Off"), and PTO days are accrued 1.25 days per month for most of us (total of 15 per year). My arrangement allows me to carry over as many days as I have left indefinitely but some (most?) companies do not allow "banking" of time off. But, even though I can carry over vacation it is almost unheard of for anyone in this industry to stay with the same employer more than two years - you have to move around to earn salary increases that you wouldn't get in this time of cutbacks and "downsizing". No one has 200-day sick day banks in the financial industry. As for scheduling time off, I can take days off on short notice if there is adequate coverage or on an "emergency" basis but no one is being granted whole weeks off until after the year is over (or after most Y2K upgrades are completed). No one comes to check on you while you are sick or on vacation but it is generally expected you'll be available via pager. (Actually, this is expected 24/7 regardless of sick time.)
As a city employee (non mayrol, non ta) I sick time and vacation are two different things. I can not use "self treated" sick for more than 3 days in a row and no more than 6 days within 6 months.
Vacation time, I can keep in the bank double what I earn. So earning 25 days a year I can keep 50 in the bank. Any amount over 50 I will get a quarterly notice and it will convert into sick days (Use or Loose).
When I retire, I can get all my vacation (it's "my" days). Sicktime I can get 1/2 the amount of days I have in the bank up to 100 days off. So if I have more than 200 Days sick (from all the rolled over vacation), I loose anything over 200. For those without sick, you get one calendar month off for every 10 years of service. Service or Sick time whatever is greater.
Since Y2K project, no vacations have been approved. I am loosing paid vacation to sick days that I can't use without a doctors note or I will loose when I retire or leave employment.
Like Dave said, private employers are ditching the cat and mouse game over sick time, and just giving employees a certain number of days off, period -- more than they used to get for vacation, but probably a little less than vacation plus sick time.
The public sector is where this stuff goes on, although at my agency no one bothers to check up on me on those rare occasions when I am sick. The difference is in my job it really doesn't matter when and if I show up, as long as the work gets done and I can attend any meetings. It's much different for a transit worker.
At the Fed, where my wife works, there is no sick time. You get up to three "occurances" of being sick in a 12 month period without getting in trouble, but after that you don't get an annual increase. However, if a serious illness happens they pay for months before stopping the paychecks.
I work as a 'consultant' and get absolutely no PTO. That's the only thing I miss about working for ShopRite. PTO, and paid vacation, even if the union was useless.
-Hank
A word about "sick banks". Your sick leave balance should be considered as a insurance policy. If you need sick time, it is there. You do not get a cash payout of all that sick time unused upon retirement, yet under a formula you can get some of it providing you have more than half your sick days left in the bank based on 12 per year. For example, if you retire after 30 years, you would of had 360 sick days credited to your bank. If you have more than 180 left, there is a formula which I have to look up giving you a cash payout. Perhaps some other TA worker knows the formula. Based on the previous incident I described about 24 hours ago, does anyone believe the TA didn't harass this man? I find no problem checking on people who take lots of sick time, but in his case I find it unnecessary and appalling.
I'm a LAN Administrator and we still get separate sick and annual leave, but it appears that management simply look for a pattern. If you do have pattern of taking sick leave the person will likely get a verbal warning when it becomes obvious or it may even show up on their performance evaluation. I've been here for two years and I've only used 2 sick days. In our dept (Information Systems) we have lot's of freedom to arrive late, leave early and time off, but we do not abuse it.
At my last job, payday was every other Friday - and I knew of people who'd regularly call in sick on the non-payday Friday and many Mondays, especially in the summer and very cold days. Management eventually decided to watch sick leave abusers closely and many were written up and some were terminiated.
Wayne
I have the standard city flex time, as long as CORE hours are worked you can come and go. For me the core hours are 10am and 3pm so as long as I'm in by 10 and work to 3pm (arriving 7am) I'm okay. Still have to punch the clock but when I'm off site at other offices I just fill out a form.
Thank you Bill. You have expressed my feeling exactly.
This is about getting fewer crews to do the same amount of work. We shouldn't get mad at management though.
Their job is to get as much work out of us, using as few of us, and paying as little as possible. And lately they are doing a good job of it.
We should not get mad at the union leadership either. We elected them. If we must direct our anger, it should be at ourselves for standing by and allowing this to happen to ourselves.
I say, only united will we win a better contract. And no media campaign will ever do that. Fear. Joe Hoffmann's fear of the embarrasment and humiliation of a (and possibly resignation) a very public job action is the only way we'll ever get a good contract. That's the way it has always been in the past. You can't negotiate from a position of weakness. That's not negotiating, it's begging.
Unfourtunately, because of the reasons I have outlined in previous posts, this is'nt going to happen. So just hide out and stick out your remaining years like I'm doing.
But make management's life miserable every chance you get!
I'm a computer programmer / analyst for a major manufacturer and services firm. I don't get checked on if I call in sick, but then again, I don't abuse the priviledge either. Regarding the Y2K issue, we've basically been told not to take blocks of vacation in the 4th quarter of 1999 and to "be real flexible" this year when it comes to vacation. I don't have sick days to bank; we're basically given whatever we need and long illnesses may be questioned or management may request proof of not being able to work, but that's about it. I also cannot defer any vacation in a year- either I use it or lose it.
--Mark
We also can't schedule travel from October to March, to ensure my wife is available if anything happens due to Y2K. Lots of people seem the have the same restrictions, especially in the financial industries, and not just MIS people either.
Perhaps THIS will be the one and only real negative impact of Y2K -- a recession in the tourist industry. If everyone who normally goes to Florida or something during Christmas Break can't go, someone's going to be hurting.
I forgot to mention one thing that was very disturbing. I used to be a government contractor at Social Security Admin in Jamaica. What was ver odd is that nearly every ferderal employee there went to great lenghts to make sure they didn't do one ounce more work than the next person. I'd constantly think (to myself) - these people would never make in the private sector. Also - if they put half as much energy into getting the job done as they do evading work - the productivity levels would be quite high. I was very odd also, because I was only 28 years old and many of these people were old enough to be my parent.
Wayne
People adapt to their surroundings. Put most of them in the private sector, and they would quickly change their ways.
It's a case of "when in Rome, do as the Romans"
I think in a good case scenario they would adapt to their new surroundings, but I think you'd also have people that are set in their ways.
Wayne
I feel I'm only qualified to agree with one statement.
Yes Wayne, you're odd. :))
-Hank (even odder) :))
I work as a project manager for a major international corporation; I also worked for the same employer as Mark Feinman for 16+ years. Where I work now, and where I worked previously (references to their policy are to the time I was employed there, not now, as Mark indicates certain things have changed), there is no formal sick time. Vacation time, up to a point, may be accumulated. Any employee who made a habit out of calling in sick, particularly if a pattern develops, will be investigated to determine if the employee is legitimately ill or if they are simply choosing not to show up for work. Both companies seem to have extremely low rates of abuse; what abuse there is seems to be among employees with lower-skilled jobs (clerical employees, for example, as opposed to senior programmers and management). The bigger problem, at both of these corporations, is with employees who call in because they have to stay home with a sick child. This affects a disproportionate number of higher-skilled employees, especially when they are from a two-paycheck family and their spouse either works for a less tolerant employer or will lose pay if they stay home to care for the child. This is becoming less of a problem now, due to telecommuting options, but it still remains my biggest absenteeism issue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unfortunately, we recently had to 'pass the hat' once again for a 35 year old car cleaner, with a new-born baby, who found out that he had a brain tumor (non-malignant) and a particularly aggressive form of Bone Cancer on his rib cage. After 16 years on the job, he had zero sick days.
I have always viewed "sick Leave' as an insurance policy. Currently I enjoy the comfort of having over 200 days in the bank. It's a nice feeling to know that i could be out for a year and not miss a check. In addition, when the TA manager's benifits were merged with all other MTA manager's benifits, we also found that when we retire, we can get paid for 1/2 of our sick leave (up to 240 days at our current rate). This is in addition to our banked vacation time, 401k's and pension, of course.
This is a problem everywhere when people have earned sick time. Some feel that they have to take off because they may lose the time. I was a member of medium size city Fire Dept. for 29 years. We earned 15 days per year, accumulated to 150 days. When you reached your max the days that you earned after that point went into the Sick Leave Bank. If an individual had a serious illness and used all his sick and vacation time, he or she could apply to the sick leave bank for additional time. Each case was presented to a committee comprised of management, union and fire commissioners. They reviewed your sick leave records before granting additional time. There were several cases in which the individual received a paycheck until he died.
Thankfully I enjoyed good health during my career and when I retired I was able to use 30 sick days to buy a year which gave me a 30 year pension of 80% of the average of my best five years. The balance of the time was cashed in. During my time on the dept. I used 39 sick days. 30 of those days were used when I broke my ankle, the other 9 I was sick.
In transit, the hourly employees accrue a 60% bank depending on their length of service. During an extended illness, when an employee has exhausted all of his/her sick time, they can apply for the 60% sick pay. The mistake some make is that they assume that the 60% money is a given. It is not. If there is a pattern of sick leave abuse:
1) Numerous one and two day absences.
2) Sick days in conjunction with days off
3) Sick on the same day of the week
then the 60% application will likely not be approved. I'm glad that when I started at the TA, the virtue of saving my sick leave was explained to me.
At 5:30 this morning a tentative agreement was reached and limited service will begin at 8:00. Subway service will be the first priority with streetcars and buses coming on as soon as possible. The TTC is expecting normal service levels for the evening rush today.
Today I joined the growing number of Cobble Hill/Carrol Gardens residence who are boycotting the F Train. I had planned on starting a boycott of my own until I found out how many people are doing it.
My experience yesterday on the F (see yesterday's post) and the Bus driver who gave me a free ride, opened my eyes to just how wide spread the F problem really is.
Join us.
How did you find out how many people are doing it? Has there been any press? Is it just me or does anyone else think that the TA reaction to this boycott will be "don't let the doors hit you in the ass on your way out of the stations"? You really can't boycott something that is already overused and overcrowded. Your spaces will just be consumed by other riders.
There's a popular restaurant in Hoboken at which the wait staff would be very liberal with the comp'ed drinks for regulars. Then, the owner cracked down on that practice, even installed video cameras to make sure the waiters ring in the drinks. So, when we heard this, we figured why not go somewhere else, thinking "this guy (the owner) can certainly afford a few free drinks, he obviously doesn't care about his regular customers". But, when you see the crowd around the bar and the people being turned away at the door because the place is too full, what's the point in a boycott? The owner won't even notice. He's got such a steady stream of customers, regulars and occasionals, he doesn't care if some people are upset over now having to pay for all of our drinks.
-dave
Please >>don't let the doors hit you in the ass on your way out of the stations"?<< you forgot the PLEASE!
I agree, Unless you get press how is this how is it going to work? This is the only place I heard of it. If I want to join instead of switching at 47/50st to the F to queens I should go to 5th Ave and get the E???
I don't follow the point of this boycott?
The grass is always greener. People who never have to ride the IRT think the F is crowded. People who never have to go through DeKalb think the F is slow.
You are right about the press thing. For the moment however I am mearly expressing my inital reaction of disgust with F Service. I have found many other's equally disguested. This is mearly the first step in finding solidarity.
When I found out that Bus drivers along Smith Street were so accustomed to dissatisfied F riders that they were letting them ride free, It became clear that others feel as I do. I have sought them out and most tell the same horror stories.
Of course we will not be heard without some press but this is only the beginning. How many of us simply put up with the escalating indignity of Subway Service and assume that we simply have no choice?
The first step in breaking this cycle is to recognize, as I have, that I AM THE MASTER OF HOW I GET TO WORK IN THE MORNING! NOT THE TA!
The second step is to empower others with this recognition.
(I am the master of how I get to work, not the TA)
Guess you agree with the judge who said the TLC has the right to issue licenses to legitimate private vans.
Ok I'll bite.
For this to work, it's not only publicity that you will need. The TA could care less on how many of it's riders are dissatisfied with service. The track record speaks for itself. They provide just barely what the public will tolerate, and no more. All they really care about is saving money, so they can look good and get promotions and bonuses.
For this to work, you can't just take money out of one turnstile an put it into another. You must take it out altogother. But that ain't happening in signifigant numbers. So next is to try and publicly humiliate TA bosses. Some grand publicity stunt that makes page one above the fold ought to do it. But GRAND, not boring. and definitely LEGAL.
Yes. You hit the nail right on the head. This should be the ultimate goal.
Whatever you say, Karl...
TA managers may read this site. The drivers have no right to allow people to ride free just because the driver also believes F service is lousy. You just opened a can of worms! TA spies will be out to write up those guys for disciplinary action if what you say is true! You believe the F is the worst line because you ride it! Somebody else believes the L is lousy because that somebody else rides it! Same thing goes for the N and so on. Everyone elses grass looks greener than your own! Taking the subway sure beats driving. The express buses, I am sure also are late and do those people complain? Just allow a little extra time, like 15 minutes. Delays will happen as long as half of NYC decides to travel during a 2 hour period.
There are two public meetings I saw posted at West 4th Street this morning. They are to discuss a potential subway extention to LaGuardia. One meeting will be in Astoria on May 11th and the other in Midtown on May 12th. Both meetings will be at 6:00pm.
I didn't have time to take down the exact addresses of the meetings. (I was running for my train) I'll try to post that tomorrow.
Thanks for the heads-up ... there's a page on the MTA website with the times and addresses:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/communications/meeting-lag.htm
Aaaaaaaargh. I'd love to go and report on my long 'career' of commuting between NYC and BOS, via LaGuardia and NYCT. But those days I'll be in Atlanta giving a presentation to the staff of The Weather Channel :-)
It would be good if a bunch of people showed up in support (supporters never come, only opponents). The MTA want to extend the Astoria line to LaGuardia, because that will provide the most frequent service for the lowest operating costs, and would provide the option of regular subway service and a premimum service on the center track. They want to drop the review of other alternatives. I agree with them.
But other people believe a separate, luxury service ($10 a ride) on a new ROW from the airport to Queens Plaza is required. And the Speaker of the City Council is opposed, because an extended elevated would pass a couple of blocks of residences (I say they have a legitimate beef, so buy them off, its cheaper).
I agree with you. I lived under the 30th Av station for ten years. I used to occupy my mind with track diagrams that could work, while waiting for trains.
Re: extending existing service vs. "separate, luxury service"
With the possible exception of Philadelphia's R1 commuter line to the airport, which seems to basically serve only to connect the airport to center city, what American city with airport rail service has separate or premium service to/from the airport? None that I know of. So where do the proponents of separated, $10 service get the idea that "nobody will ride unless the service is separate from regular subway service"? Air travelers light in luggage seem to use the trains pretty well at O'Hare and Midway, and at Logan, BWI, and Washington National from what I've seen on trips. None of these involve "special" trains or extra fares.
A separate line is obviously much more expensive to build than an extension, and a $10 fare would be fatal to the success of the service because it would:
1) basically rule out the airline and airport personnel, who are large users of airport rail; and
2) be easily undercut by buses, which are still useful for those whose time is not of the essence.
(Luxury vs. standard service). An Astoria Line route would allow for both. You'd add more N trains (and assign the newest and best cars there). But you could also run an express service every 12-15 minutes using the unused middle track as far as Queensboro and turning around at Whitehall, with an added fare collected on the train. NYC subways are crowded for people with luggage -- but only for two hours inbound in the morning, and two hours outbound in the afternoon. Some might choose to pay for separate trains for that reasons. I say, let the riders decide.
But as I said, (other) people should show up. I really shouldn't, ethically, since I get to express my opinion within my agency and shouldn't contradict a position it might eventually take at a public meeting.
The "dual fare" concept is interesting, and downright appealing. How about an easy solution - you enter one turnstile at LGA and go to one track for express, another turnstile / track for local. Special acess for luggage too - maybe an airline tie-in to have your luggage returned to you *at* the station, so you don't have to lug it around the terminal. And check in there too. people who want a fast ride can get the express, people who want to save get the local. Everyone picks what's best for them. Better than the Airtrain to Jamaica and dealing with LIRR hell...
This sounds like a good idea. $10 is certainly competitive with the Taxi. Having an extension that runs from LGA to the N line then using 3/4 track to Queensboro Plaza (depending on the time of day considered peak direction for flight users) then express in the city, would serve tourists and business travelers to midtown and business travelers to the financial district if the train is turned at Whitehall. Fat chance trying to sell this one to the mayors office or Port Authority.
(Fat chance selling this to the Mayor or the Port Authority).
The Mayor, the Port Authority, Queens Politicians and the MTA all agree on a rail connection to LaGuardia. They all agree it should run through the 60th St tunnel and down the BMT Broadway line. The only issues are a) where the money comes from b) how much it costs and c) what the route is from the airport to Queensborough. Obviously a, b, and c are related. In New York City (but probably nowhere else) disagreements on these issues, clashes of egos, and litigation on frivilous issues by those opposed (or who want to be bought off), have the potential to kill a project everyone agrees on.
On the money, the Governor is trying to squeeze the Port Authority. If passenger facility charge money is used, the service could in theory not be part of the general system, and would have to be separate. But general LaGuadia Airport profits and state and local tax dollars could be used for an integrated system without the federal hassles. The Mayor has proposed cutting off city capital funding to the MTA, and diverting it to this project instead, thereby forcing the MTA to come up with money from elsewhere. The MTA is pushing an N line extension. The City Council speaker, who lives in Astoria and can veto such a route, is opposed. Some people at City Planning believe a separate "high class" system would be better (and would make money at $10 a pop), others disagree (I'm not privy to the point of view at the top).
Personally, I favor extending the Astoria line and using $50 to $75 million to compensate those living on the blocks immediately adjacent to the extended line (I believe everyone else in Astoria would be better off with a "front door" service going through their community). If people sue, give them nothing under any circumstances.
If it ran over the Grand Central Pkwy, what would be the difference? There's alredy a lot of noise from the Highway. Your'e absolutely right. Always a bunch of NIMBY crybabies to stop important projects like this.
Peter Vallone is washed up anyway. When Dave Dinkins was mayor, Astoria used to get street paving and trash pick up and the like that was first rate.
After Vallone's battles with Il Guilianni, the neghborhood got the shaft. I lived there for ten years. I am so glad that I got out. Between all the yuppies moving in and driving up the rents, and the recent immigrants living 10 to an apartment, and not being able to find parking, and greedy landlord's trying to scam their p[oor tennants and......
Now I live by Jamaica Yard, and I get seranaded by work train horns as I fall asleep.
Try living on the New lots line between Pennsylvania and Junius. You get the 3,4, and L trains at once. The 4 run more at night than the 3 during the day.
During midnights the 4 runs on 20 minute headways. During the day the 3 runs on 10 minute headways.
I know but some strange reason, early Sun morning the 4 run about every 7-10 minutes. Whats up with that?
No 3s running until about 0930 on Sunday. However, 4 service in Manhattan needs 10 minute headways, so more $s at that time but no 3s.
I mean like 1:00 am in the morning.
(What's the problem if its over the parkway)?
That's not what Vallone objects to. The best route is to extend the N two blocks north of Ditmars on 31st Avenue, into the industrial area, and around to the waterfront. The problem is the residents of those two blocks. They're the people I say should be bought off or out. They have a legitimate beef.
The highway route would require a whole separate train, and would be horribly expensive and less good. That's the one the MTA doesn't want to do.
And as you get close the airport, on the GCP, there's a runway approach just a few feet above the highway, i.e. no room for a subway, unless you can tollerate skid marks on the roof.
Mr t__:^)
Then the gripe these people have is the noise generated by the sharp turn that'll be there? Cause making a right from 31st street onto 20th avenue is gonna be like Crescent street and Fulton in the BMT East!
(Loud right turn onto 20th Ave).
The plan would be to buy an easement from the Ravenswood Con Ed plant, then run down 19th Avenue. The turn would be in the plant. I think Berrian Blvd would be better, even though you'd have to jump more water and the Rikers Island Bridge, because it gets you further away from another set of residences on 19th Rd Ave. But if it's cheaper, you can buy them off too.
One thing that would make the neighbors even happier -- a single track extension over the Rikers Island Bridge, for an express service from a separate platform at Queensboro to the jail for visitors and employees. If all visitors were required to arrive by train, it would please the neighbors no end.
I even have an idea of how to shake loose the Con Ed easement at a reasonable price. In that zone, your allowed to put up billboards. With the train slowing down to round a curve, that would be great place to put an ad for people coming into NYC. That alone should make it worthwhile to sell the easment for $1.00, so you can get the revenues from the billboards. (Not that anyone other than Subtalkers will pay attention to that suggestion, however). My only comment on the proposed billboard zoning change is to continue to allow them near subways in M3!
This would be a great introduction to all sides of New York. On the right side of the train, first you pass the prison, sewage treatment plant, and power plant, then you turn around and get a great view of Manhattan all along 31st.
Speaking from my experience as an airline employee (15 years). I think checking in & picking up bags at the subway term. at LaGuardia is asking for trouble. It takes them 1/2 to 1 hour just to move them off the plane, onto a trailer, then to the carrousel.
Can you see the baggage handler picking out bags for a special trailer to the subway. Well, they do this for "interchange" flights, so MAYBE they could do it, but you're going to have to wait a while at the subway station.
Sorry about raining on you idea ... it is a good one.
Mr t__:^)
I don't disagree with a two-tiered system like you propose, with local trains at regular fare and express trains with a surcharge. That makes a lot of sense. What DOESN'T make sense is setting the express fee so high that the trains are nearly empty (which is not your proposal, but that of the "$10 separated service" crowd). The fare for express subway service should be roughly proportional to commuter-rail fares, maybe slightly more but not a lot more, and $10 is MUCH more than the highest commuter fare from the farthest stations (up to 65 miles away), at least here in Chicago. Nobody's going to pay $10 to ride into Manhattan from what is essentially Astoria!
(No one is going to pay a $10 fare) What people have told me is that they want to make it competitive with taxi fares.
Then are they going to run the tracks door to door?
Not to mention MARTA in Atlanta (right Todd?), they even have a place for bags onthe MARTA cars!!! All for $1.50!!!
I would be very happy (and thankful) for a one-seat subway ride from LGA to NYC, without "premium" service. Now, I have to take the M-60 to the N, or Q-33 to E/F. Even with just carry-on luggage as I usually have for my one and two day commuter trips to NYC from BOS, the transfers are a hassle, the bus trips are slow in traffic, and you're exposed to the weather (at least at the M-60/N transfer).
I think the emphasis should be on frequency, efficiency, and low cost. So I would support standard subway cars, no extra fare, and hopefully some express or skip-stop service via the Astoria branch. I think that getting carried away by having separate cars with luggage racks, on-board personnel, and premium fares will drive down usage. It's just as important to serve the LGA employees and day-trippers, which would make up the majority of the users. This is exactly what happens at Reagan Washington National (Blue/Yellow Lines), and it has worked exceptionally well for nearly two decades.
Actually, if they built it with the $10 charge, that probably wouldn't be so bad, because if people balked at paying the same amount as for an airport bus (or just slightly less than a cab), the MTA would have to lower the fee or institute regular serevice completely in order to justify the expence of building the line.
...but at least it would get built.
My thoughts exactly, let them say what ever ... only folks with luggage ... must show a ticket ... $20 a ride ... etc.
After it's built & nobody is riding it ... supply & demand, might end up as a regular subway fare or a double fare (pay on & off),
BUT it would get built !
Mr t__:^)
At $10 a ride, you'll never get airport employees to use it. To be successful, in my opinion, you have to garner support of daily users (workers) as well as air travelers.
I think that the trains heading for LGA should run on the middle/express track from QB to Astoria Blvd.........
That is true. I was on MARTA last Friday and they have space reserve for the baggage and garment bags.............
Give my regards to Jeanetta Jones. (No, I don't know her personally.)
Iv'e seen these two on those two stub tracks near the LPG tanks for the natural gas busses at 38th St for a quite some time now. Any one know why they're there?
Since railroads make money from each other on "car hire", the TA probably owes Conrail a fourtune!
Some cars like the RailBoxes were dirt cheap, and we used to use them to outship trash. We used to reccieve paper rolls for a company in LIC from Wisconsin Central. Those cars went back immeadiately. WC charged an outrageous ammout for carhire.
[We used to reccieve paper rolls for a company in LIC from Wisconsin Central. Those cars went back immeadiately. WC charged an outrageous ammout for carhire.]
Aren't those shipments still being made? I saw several WC cars at a factory siding last time I took the LIRR to LIC, maybe a month ago.
Sorry, I say used to, because I no longer work there. Now I work in the NYC Transit system. Case Paper still does accept delivery of those WC boxes. The delivery had to be made at 4 or 5 in the morning though. Had to beat the first west-bound passenger trains of the morning, or LIRR would ask for for heads on a platter.
NYCT has updated its Web site to include subway service diversion information on the Willie-B Outage.
Since last Friday, the new type 8 trolley (car 3803) has been used as a double car with the one type 7 car (3682) that has been modified to work with the type 8s. Before hand, cars 3802 and 3803 were running as a double car. Eventually all the type 7s will be modified to work with the type 8s (if the MBTA and Breda can make it work), and 96 additional type 8s will be delivered over the next 2 years. If you want to see any pictures of the type 7, there are some in the Boston section on nycsubway.org by Jason, and you can see the type 8 at the New England transportation site. -Nick
I wonder if the type 7 MDBF will increase as a result of the modifications...
Do you know if the type 8 car is being tested on any particular line?
I suppose, if I sat at Park Street for long enoungh, it would eventually roll by...
San Fancisco had quite a bit of trouble with their Bredas, and I remember that Boston got the short end of the stick on the Boeings, seeing as they did not feel it necessary to have an inspector on the assembly line. I can only wonder at what travesty is about to transpire here in Beantown now.
Perhaps with this new equipment, we will finally see three car trains? or the opening of the rest of the arborway line? or the end of the PCC's at Mattapan? comments?
Dave
You won't see the end of the PCC's on Mattapan as the MBTA is about to rebuild them again to bring the PCC into its second century.
The Type-8 has been running two trips/day, Mon-Sat, leaving Riverside (D branch) about 7:30am and again 3:30pm, but the times have varied.
The Mattapan/Ashmont PCC rebuild project is well underway. A colleague of mine from Seashore, a former Green Line Inspector, is the project manager. Long live the PCCs!
Would that happen to be Danny Cohen?
I walked through this station the other day. The trackbed is being totally rebuilt with new concrete embedded ties.This work is ongoing with some skeletonized track in place (no cement yet, just the rails and the short ties.) The entrance from the ramp to the N/R has some new mosaics installed and is visible behind plywood. The platform walls thermselves remain a motley mix of various tile patterns and bare concrete patches and plywood. Asbestos removal is also underway.
A poster noted in, I believe, early March that they had seen the World Trade Center PATH terminal made up as W 4 St for a Law & Order episode. The listing for tonight's show--10PM Eastern, NBC--mentions a professor being pushed in front of a subway. I realized I had last week's episode on tape, and checked the preview. Sure enough, it is obviously a PATH train that hits the character. I will leave it to the many pairs of eagle-eyes that post this site to spot mistakes and comment accordingly starting tomorrow.
It sure was PATH. The car in the filming was 680 (Right on the car side) which I believe is a PA-2. (Peggy, please correct if in error.) It only appears in the teaser and the first 2 minutes of the episode.
There was an "A" sicker on the car side, ahead of the doors.
And no TA markings that I caught. Interestingly, they DO mention that the Transit Authority would like to keep it's 'on-time' record. I have to say, the episode had some interesting twists. The show always features a little social commentary with its plot lines...
-Hank
And it never quite wraps up the whole story, leaves you room to ponder. Like in last night's episode (spoilers ahead) did the father kill the woman? Did the little girl do it? If it was the girl, will she now attack her biological mother for taking her away from her father? I thought they charged him with kidnapping as pressure to gain info about the murder case. If that's what they wanted they should have charged the girl with the murder (she was 16, probably could be tried as an adult) and if her father did do it maybe he'd confess instead of sending her to prison. Of course, this guy probably would have let her go.
Over on alt.tv.law-and-order there were 10 or so posts about the episode describing the "fake" train and station. Most of them knew it wasn't a NYC subway train or station and that the "A" logo on the side was fake, but the general consensus that was that the train and station were a set. One poster pointed out that it couldn't have been a real "A" train because you could see the "express" tracks through the window of the train. Most of these people posting were New Yorkers-- Guess they don't get out to Jersey much...
-Dave
I hope you posted a correction!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems to me that since Law & Order is set in NYC and PATH runs in NYC, the scene could have simply depicted a person being pushed under a PATH train. This would have made the episode more accurate & satisfy the purists among us.
As far as TV is concerned, New York has the Subway. Nowhere else. Same with movies. New York is the Centre of the Universe.
And how many people across this country have actually heard about a "PATH" train? Then they'd be scratching their heads saying, "Why didn't they just say it was the New York subway? Sure looks like a subway to me!"
Good L&O story anyway. The father is presented as an A No.1 First Class AH. The ending leaves the impression that the real losers are the wife and the girls. "Daddy" warped them all to worship him as the be-all and end-all of the universe. Maybe the next time its on A&E in the future we can all watch it again and draw some other points.
Anyway, L&O aside, is PATH less worried about its TV/Movie image than NYCT??
> is PATH less worried about its TV/Movie image than NYCT??
Since no one on the Usenet groups even recognized it as PATH, I would guess not. People not from NY will think it's the NYC Subway. New Yorkers who posted on the L&O newsgroup knew it wasn't the subway but didn't know where it was. Plus I bet PATH charges less for use of its facilities. L&O has been to WTC at least twice now. I have seen them setting up the equipment both times in the morning rush. Track 1 where they filmed both times is not used in regular service; it is only used to discharge passengers for trains going out of service (that will then stay parked on that track till evening rush). Using it to film doesn't impact their operations at all.
-Dave
I am apologizing to all those who feel offended by any comments that I made in the previous posts. I am apologizing to all those who cannot see the bullets. I am apologizing to all those who hate the bullets and HATE those who use it. I am apologizing to the main people who use SubTalk daily (you know who are). I am apologizing to the MR WEB SITE HOST!!!!!!! I WILL USE THE BULLETS FOR THE LAST TIME SOMETIME THIS WEEKEND. After that you all can do whatever the hell you want with them. I will use them to print for myself. If I can use somewhere else without being a bother to other people, please let me know, MR WEB SITE HOST!!!! I will take a leave of absence shortly thereafter. I had enjoyed my times and gaining info from everybody. But I see that this place it is not for me. This is for the real subway buffs. The ones that are in the subway day in and out. Hopefully I will pass the conductor test and learn more about the subway on my own, like I have been doing for the past 10-15 yrs. Thank you all and good night.
Why do I hear "Time of your life" by Green Day................
Well I hope you do good on the test. Also I did enjoy your bullets. I myself was going to try them out but I'm going to pass on that idea for now.
If you know what is best for you, please don't!!!!! Like entering the water full of pirahnas with a some blood on your body.
Mike, as I've indicated in various other posts, I personally don't want to see anyone stop participating in this board over relatively trivial issues, like spelling, grammar, and bullets. That being said, however, the bullets do take more time to load, and mean that I can view that many fewer messages in the limited time I have to spend on the web. If I know a message is likely to be heavy on bullets, I'll pass, simply because I can look at two other messages in the same time frame.
So, stay on board - just leave the bullets for discussions of roll signs and such, and keep them out of regular posts.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When is the fantasy be available for download?
When is the fantasy map be available for download?
3trainMike,
First... There were quite few changes and corrections on the maps between me, Wayne and Dave.
Second...I've been working alot of overtime and lately it's been 6 days a week.
Third...As I was planned to nearly finish the map on my day off today, I spent time talking, thinking about those who died in Columbine high school shootings because it's 10 minutes drive from where I live and it is in the same school district as my 6 year old son, school was cancelled today and explain anything my son want to ask about the shootings yesterday.
So, Mike...it takes a quite a while to finish up when things are back to normal.
If you send me your email address, I'll be sure to let you know when it's ready for download.
Michael Adler
Lakewood, Colorado
Mike,
As a parent and decent human being, I know my thoughts and prayers with my family, along with so many others, go out to those victims and survivors of that insane horror.
My heart goes to those not only who were there, but those like your child so close.
We have to hope that out of this madness maybe some good will come.
Mike H
I second that quote. Ditto!!!!!!!!!! It is shame. One of the few places you think you will be safe in is at school. That just goes to show you that nowhere is safe!!!!!!
My apologies and condolesces to you. I did not know you stayed in the Denver area. I am truly sorry if I was being a little hasty.
I'm not too far from Columbine High myself, several miles straight east to be exact. If you know where Southglenn Mall is, I'm right across the street from it. Words can't describe what happened there. It makes you wonder just what this world is coming to. I won't say much more, since this is off topic, except that all of Denver is still in mourning.
Unfortunately, it is Reload, Recoil and Riccochette!
Again, this is off topic, but these kids are only carrying on a great American tradition -- if you don't like someone, go and kill them.
Ask the native American population -- what's left of them -- and they can tell you all about it.
It's unfortunate that folks my age are finding a gun to be more effective in solving a dispute than trying to do things reasonably.
Though I attend a reasonably safe public school, you can never be sure who the loony-toons are.
Yesterday, my school held a moment of silence for the Littleton tragedy and one of my classmates made gold ribbons for people to wear in memory of those murdered.
Do I think there's anyway to stop this completely. Unfortunately not.
Anyone who's truly bent on doing something can,and usually do find a way. The only way you can prevent this is to ban guns completely!
Even that won't work. If someone is bent on doing an evil deed, they will find a way. Look at Hitler and the Jews (and other victims of the Holocaust), and Milosovic and the Albanians, just to name two. Today's children need positive guidance at home and from their community, and too many of them don't seem to get it. As a parent of four and grandfather of one, my heart goes out to all the folks touched by the tragedy; I pray that I never have to experience such an event first-hand.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As the saying goes, "If guns are banned, only outlaws will have guns."
Perhaps if someone responsible at the school had also been armed, the killers could have been shot at the beginning of their rampage, and the number of lives lost in all would be much smaller.
But it is true, there is no way to completely stop someone who is willing to die in the course of a crime. You can only minimize the amount of damage he does, as described above, not reduce it to zero.
Some people have compared the way these kids acted to the plot of some video games, and there seems to be some truth in that. While I am a strong supporter of the First Ammendment, I think the makers of some violent video games should reflect on what "skills" they are actually promoting. Some self-restraint in deploying these violent games couldn't hurt. Let's see more Pac-Man and Q-Bert, less Mortal Kombat and Postal.
My kid went to someone else's birthday party at one of these kids games/sport center up in Westchester, and I got a close look as some of those games. Nasty. Do you know that there is almost nowhere in the City of New York where a video game arcade is allowed? It's easier to find a spot where Adult Entertainment is permitted than video games. Perhaps there is a point to this.
Maybe they should come up with a train-based video game. How about "Tower Operator"? The way things are going, I expect "Trench Coat Mafia" to be out for Nintendo by the end of the year.
There used to be two big video arcades in Penn Station. Are you saying they were closed by the city for violating zoning?
The most common places to find video games in the city today seem to be bowling alleys and movie theaters.
Arcades are allowed in C7 districts (mapped in Coney Island and on one lot in Sheepshead Bay), in rail terminals in C5 and C6 districts but not including Grand Central (so yes, the one in Penn was legal), and within shopping malls in M2 and M3 districts (where shopping malls are not allowed but one was already built, Kings Plaza). I kid you not. When I say the zoning is a farce, I do not speak from ignorance.
Of course, an arcade can be an "accessory use" to something else like a bowling alley. What makes it accessory? Last I hard the Department of Buildings interpretation was no more than four machines, but I heard it might be going up.
The zoning is full of crap like this. After sitting on it for years, the head of the Planning Commission just announced that he is going to push our proposal which sweeps much of it away. But not the arcadea and video game restrictions. We wouldn't dare. One city planner described a Queens Councilman as "foaming at the mouth" when the subject came up. And after the Colorodo thing, I'm not necessarily sure it would be a good idea anyway.
Steve: I cannot begin to comprehend the shock & unbelievableness of what the residents of your area are going through right now. We can have all kinds of gun control laws on the books, yet they will still be in the hands of the non-registered. There was prohibition in the 1920's, yet liquor abounded. I'm told that's how the Kennedy family made their big bucks. Certainly, and I'm sure I can speak for all subtalkers, our hearts go out to the families, friends and residents of the Denver area, and may they all rest in peace. May all the deceased go on to a better place.
I understand that MDBF is a measure of miles between failures but what does the acronym really stand for?
MDBF=Mean Distance Between Failures
David
Thank You,David Sharing Knowledge is what it is all about
MDBF = "Mean Distance Between Failures" or in some places MTBF = Mean Time Between failures. It is an engineering measure of the average distance travelled by a vehicle, ie train between equipment or vehicle failures, however that is measured by the organisation. It could be total stoppage, delay to service/train or whatever.
Suggest you have a look at www.nycsubway.org/faq/mdbf.html
Could it be a station on the NYC subway served by those lines!!
I am familiar with MTBF, However MDBF was new to me but thanks to people like you, my thirst for subway knowledge has been (temporarily) satisfied
As I am new to this board, though not new to New York City, I have a question regarding a rear-end collision on the IRT Broadway line, on the el, right over W230th Street. I remember seeing the aftermath on my way home from school (St, John's on Godwin Terrace). Can anyone recall the circumstances, cause, and the date of the collision? If I remember correctly the trains in question were on the middle (express) track that was being used for layover during the non-rush hour. Thanks in advance for any info.
Larry T.
It was in Sept., 1957. Two low v's hit each other. One motorman had a heart attack. I lived in Marble Hill, but do not remember any details. I was too young. Books in the library about the Bronx, have this picture, but not too much detail.
please help !!
who knows when the last trolly ran over thee 59th street bridge. any pix would be greatly appreciated.
Speaking of which, I figure this is what the enter exit kiosk at the manhattan side of the bridge is. However, I'm wondering - was the trolley station underground? Is it still there? It the kiosk even PART of the station? why is IT still there?
Queensboro Bridge Trolley made it's last run April 7, 1957.
On the Manhattan side the loop WAS underground.
Photo ... I recently saw one in a back issue of one of the trolley magazines. It shows the last trolley comming off the bridge. The same issue, I think, has a shot of a Steinway trolley. (these two lines are now bus routes of Queens Surface Corp)
Monday, if I remember, I give you the specifics.
Mr t__:^)
Ed, et. al. "Scale Model Traction & Trolley Quarterly" did a two part article on NYC trolleys (where did they go to). Issue #37 & 38, (1991/1992) which I JUST bought as back issues (more on that at the end).
#37, page 12 shows a former Steinway/Manhatan Bridge car running on the Queensboro Bridge (1939).
#38 page 13 shows two Osgood Bradleys', one comming off bridge '49. Interestingly both cars were double ends (poles at either end), maybe they weren't turned at the Queens end ?
Yesterday I was shown a photo of the last car over the bridge. It was marked up, i.e. goodbye/good luck. There was also a short article.
Back issues for the above: Vanishing Traction Products (appropriate)
P.O.Box 04016 - Milwaukee, WI 53204 @ $4.50 each + $2.50 postage
Mr t__:^)
There are a bunch of Queensborough Bridge trolley photos on the New York Trolleys CDROM.
-Dave
The latterday cars came from New Bedford, MA where Double-ended cars were a necessity, they were not made specifically for that operation.
Today I saw a pair of Redbirds (I didn't catch the numbers) signed up as 7 trains sitting outside the Coney Island facility (I think it was the shop but I'm not sure which building is which). Why would they be there? (I figured out how they would get there.. that's simple: use the crossover to the N at Queensboro)...
Mike
Maintenance that Corona barn could not undertake.
All major maintainence on Flushing IRT cars is done at CI. There is no connection from the Flushing line to the rest of the IRT.
-Hank
I thought the the #7 train can get to the rest of the IRT via Queensboro Plaza? Otherwise how can the #7 train get to the Coney Island yard?
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
It crosses over to the N tracks at QB. It then follows the route to CI. I think...........
[I thought the the #7 train can get to the rest of the IRT via Queensboro Plaza? Otherwise how can the #7 train get to the
Coney Island yard?]
The 7 connects to the N at Queensboro Plaza. To get from the 7 to any other IRT line, a train would have to take a roundabout route through one of the other interdivisional connnections (1/A at 207th Street, 4/D at Concourse Yard).
You're correct - only way to get to the IRT main lines is via BMT to Coney Island, then via the D to Concourse Yard, or the D or F to the A
to 207th St.
Historical note - until 1942, Flushing Line equipment could access the IRT via the Queensboro Bridge, 2nd Ave. Elevated (reverse direction at some point), and the existing #2/#5 el to White Plains/241.
Andy....Do you mean equipment such as the Steinway and World's Fair cars or just the wooden cars. Wouldn't those cars have been too heavy to traverse the 2nd ave. el?
Carl: All the IRT equiptment at that time did relay via the express track of the Second Av El which was built under the Dual Contracts and was strong enough to support the subway equiptment without passengers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
If the train has two TOs, you can: wrong rail into QBP on upper level N tracks, cross over to sb track at 11th St, go to 57/Bway, change ends, take the 63rd St tunnel to Lexington Ave, change ends, SB to 42/ 6 Ave, change ends, NB on the D line to concourse yard or on the A line to 207 Yard
It also needs a lead car, or an R33WF on each end, because of differences in the trip system between the IRT and the BMT-IND. R33WF have 4 trips, 1 per corner; all other cars have only 2, 1 per truck, on the right(?) side for the BMT-IND, left(?) side for IRT.
-Hank
Or, from the 60th St. tunnel, reverse move to Queens Plaza, then down F line to 34th St./6th Ave., then north on D line to Concourse Yard (or D/A to 207th St. Yard).
Bad phraseology. There is no DIRECT connection between the 7 and the rest of the IRT, ie you can't get from the Flushing tracks to the Lex or Bway/7th tracks in one swoop, you have to traipse all over the system. The only connection the 7 has is with the N at Queensboro Plaza
Does anyone remember when the original air-conditioning was done on the Worlds Fair R-36's. I seem to recall it was done on some of the unused trackage of the Shea Stadium of the LIRR Port Washington Branch. Rather then do the obvious thing and make a track connection from the Corona Yard to the LIRR the cars were sent on the Grand Circle tour through Brooklyn. Here you had R-36's on both side of the hurricane fencing at Corona but it probably took several hours to get from one side of the fence to the other.
Larry,RedbirdR33
At Midnight tonight on Channel 3 TNT in New York, Nighthawks is on again With the NY subways playing a major role again.
If you are up catch it, if not you can tape it on your VCR.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Okay folks..here we go again! As far we all know what is the longest DAILY commute each of us knows of?? I mean a daily M-F grind using transit..NOT the wimps who use AMTRAK from Philly to NYC..etc. I STILL nominate some of the intrepid people who DRIVE 45 mins into Port Jervis from points in PA..THEN ride MN/NJT for almost 3 hrs to Hoboken then have to change to the PATH...THEN maybe a NYC subway...*WHEW!* makes me tired just writing it.....and of course reverse it in the PM....(although the new express scheds have made it a tad easier...the poor people dont have to drag on the Jersey MainLine coming home now...) Anyway..the gaunlent has been thrown.... (do people ACTUALLY commute from Montauk??)
[do people ACTUALLY commute from Montauk??]
Unlikely. Once a week or thereabouts I take the 5:51 Montauk train (via a Jamaica connection), which is the most likely evening train for someone commuting from east of Speonk. By the time I get off in Patchogue, there seem to be no more than 75 to 100 people left on the train, which makes several more stops before it gets to Montauk. In addition, last Monday (4/19), I had a day off from work and decided to explore the East End a bit. Around noon or thereabouts, I drove by the Montauk station during my explorations, and there were ZERO cars in the parking lot (sure wouldn't see that at most LIRR stations!)
I'd say that the moderately busy station at Patchogue is the easternmost end of the commuter zone on the Montauk line.
I used to live in Central Connecticut. There were some people who commuted during the week to NYC from Central and Northeast Connecticut. They would drive 45 minutes to an hour to New Haven or one of the other stations on the shore and take the train to GCT. They had a commute that approached 3 hours door to door.
I agree that PA to NYC supercommuters have the longest ride, but some take the Morris County lines rather than the Port Jervis line. Five day a weekers move to PA because they don't want to live in mixed neighborhoods and can't afford houses in exclusive neighborhoods farther in. I don't think this is rational, but there you are. Most long distance commuters from other places want to live in vacation-like surroundings, and don't come in every day. That makes sense to me.
[I agree that PA to NYC supercommuters have the longest ride, but some take the Morris County lines rather than the Port Jervis line.]
There also are a number of express buses from the NE Pennsylvania area.
<<>>
I had the impression that the newer residents of Northeastern Pa. were a rather diverse bunch with many drawn directly from NYC. Is that not the case?
[I had the impression that the newer residents of Northeastern Pa. were a rather diverse bunch with many drawn directly from NYC. Is that not the case?]
FWIW, housing developments in the NE Pennsylvania area often advertise in the Post and the Daily News. I'd presume that city residents are the main targets of these ads, as most suburbanites who read the papers are likely to be homeowners already.
[Five day a weekers move to PA because they don't want to live in mixed neighborhoods and can't afford houses in exclusive neighborhoods farther in. I don't think this is rational, but there you are. Most long distance commuters from other places want to live in vacation-like surroundings, and don't come in every day. That makes sense to me.]
What else could there be?
How about a six percent sales tax instead of 8 1/2? And that sales tax isn't on food or clothing - the essentials.
How about being able to walk out into a "yard" at night, or sit on your deck and drink a cocktail or beer?
Sure, Manhatten is where the money is, however, upstate PA is still a very beautiful place to live.
Jim K.
Chicago
[[Five day a weekers move to PA because they don't want to live in mixed neighborhoods and can't afford houses in exclusive neighborhoods farther in. I don't think this is rational, but there you are. Most long distance commuters from other places want to live in vacation-like surroundings, and don't come in every day. That makes sense to me.]
What else could there be?
How about a six percent sales tax instead of 8 1/2? And that sales tax isn't on food or clothing - the essentials.
How about being able to walk out into a "yard" at night, or sit on your deck and drink a cocktail or beer?
Sure, Manhatten is where the money is, however, upstate PA is still a very beautiful place to live.]
And let's not forget the price issue. At least judging by the developers' ads that run in the New York papers, NE Pennsylvania offers the most affordable single-family houses of any area within feasible commuting distance. For instance, I've seen ads offering newly constructed houses for not much over $100,000. There is absolutely no new construction available for that price, or for anything remotely close to that price, in Long Island, Westchester County or Fairfield County. There might be some parts of New Jersey that are somewhat more reasonable, but they're still surely more expensive than NE Pennsylvania. Even the high commuting costs probably don't fully offset the lower prices.
Don't forget the increasing number of express bus runs to the northern Phila suburbs/Bucks County (places like New Hope, Newtown, Doylestown) for much the same rationale. I've been told it's easier to get to NYC from these places than to Center City Phila (New Hope and Newtown have no Regional Rail service, while Doylestown has a little bit).
Still and all, a three hour commute is a pretty exterme measure to take. That's the problem with the NY metro area. I like the city and the country, but you have to go through two hours of suburbs to get from one to the other. I find the whole idea of super-commuting pointless. You lose so much of your life, could it really be worth it?
>How about a six percent sales tax instead of 8 1/2? And that sales >tax isn't on food or clothing - the essentials.
How about a ~2.8% local wage tax rather than a sliding scale that maxes out ~12%. Of course this is less relevent if you work in NYC itself and live in PA since it's somewhere between the two with non-resident NY taxes.
>How about being able to walk out into a "yard" at night, or sit on >your deck and drink a cocktail or beer?
You can do all of these things and still live in a city. I had a back yard and a deck when I lived in philly. And that was in Center City, not the very suburban parts of Chestnut Hill or Northeast Philly. Of course I traded that in for life in NYC and I don't regret it at all.
>Sure, Manhatten is where the money is, however, upstate PA is still a >very beautiful place to live.
Beauty is, as they say, in the eye of the beholder. I went to high school in Bucks County so I am familiar with the area. PA may have some of the beauty of nature, but it's also very dull and very white-bread. I'm glad I grew up in the city (philly) before being exposed to that environment in high school.
A few years back, the NYTimes ran an article about someone who commuted daily from Montauk. I don't remember when or who it was, but it was there.
Long Island almost certainly has many more long-distance commuters than LIRR ridership statistics would indicate. Commuters from points farther east commonly drive to Ronkonkoma station. Even if they're closer to stations on the Montauk line, many people use Ronkonkoma because no train change is required. On the Montauk line itself, I wouldn't be surprised if Patchogue got some commuters who drove in from areas closer to stations on the eastern portions of the line (while a train change is required for Patchogue, service is more frequent than from stations farther east).
Amazing as it may be, I know of atleast one person commuting daily - year round from Amagansett on the early morning train. He tells me that several other people have boarded the train on a typical morning in Montauk.
Other folks try to reduce travel time by driving from the East to Speonk and then hopping on the train for the ride to Hunters Point.
Summer time travel is very different on the South Shore as many people do take the Cannonball East on Thursday and Friday nights during the warm weather. A large number get off in the Hamptons and Montauk.
OF course, the Cannonball reduces travel time about 2:35 - but the distance to Montauk is still 117 miles. Seems like the longest commute to me.
[Amazing as it may be, I know of atleast one person commuting daily - year round from Amagansett on the early morning train. He tells me that several other people have boarded the train on a typical morning in Montauk.
Other folks try to reduce travel time by driving from the East to Speonk and then hopping on the train for the ride to
Hunters Point.]
Daily commuting from Amagansett would be do-able but mighty tough. Mornings aren't too bad, get an express at 5:58 and be in Penn Station at 8:42. Evenings are a different story. Your most likely train would be the 5:51, which won't get you to Amagansett until 8:50. Ouch, that's nearly three hours later. Even Metro-North from Waterbury or Pt. Jervis isn't that bad. If your work schedule is flexible enough to enable you to get the 4:19 out of Penn, you'd be back by 7:27 - a more reasonable time, to be sure, but you're still spending nearly six hours a day on the train.
Thought you could just walk up to your local Token Booth to get those MetroCards as they come out ... sorry but you'll miss a few.
CitySearch, the retail outfit that sell MetroCards and other related stuff not necessarily all from NYC has a unique MC with a photo group of subway station names, as if a close up was taken in the stn. It's rather nice & apparently comes in a set of six, but only the first one is avail. now. There is also indication that the TA Museum may sell them.
Second problem: Their server is slow as molasses, so do it EARLY in the AM (part of my problem is that my terminal is 486/33 based).
Mr t__:^)
As part of my school-mandated communtiy service, I volunteered for the campaign to help a local person to be elected to city council.
Yesterday I had a Q/A session with her(Terry Gillen) and asked her what would she do, if anything, to help our paleolithic public transit system.
Her answer-not much. Why? There isn't much control the city has over SEPTA. The 10 member board is made of two city residents and eight suburbanites. She said that even though most of SEPTA's services are in the city and mostly city residents use SEPTA, the bulk of the money is used towards the suburban divisions for repairs and upgrades, as opposed to fixing up places like Bridge and Pratt( Frankford Terminal) which SEPTA is just getting around to.
Any thoughts?
It definitly sounds as those the city residents are getting the royal shaft. It seems that this is the way our whole country is based. The poor guy always supports the rich. I'm not saying that everybody who lives in the burbs is a multi-millionare. But there is a good chance there doing a little better than those stuck in our inner cities. Just a thought why dosen't Phila. pull out of SEPTA and have its own transit authority and not support the suburbs? Lets see how far SEPTA can go without the city support? Maybe its a crazy idea but just a thought.
Hmm, a couple of thoughts. First, true, 8 members might be from the
burbs, but don't a lot of people from there switch to local transit
once in the city?
Well, ok, that might be a moot point, since the people on the board
might only have had a distant relative that once rode the subway
when their limo broke down, *but*, on the other hand, the service
to the outer burbs seems to have been shrinking in recent years.
I was up in Newtown, and that would be a great place to revive
service to. But nope. (*sigh* I miss those old diesels, too)
So, I guess in conclusion, it's bad all over.
The numbers are very interesting, and they were (and have been) bandied about, especially during our extended transit-free period last spring and summer. SEPTA serves about 85% of its patrons with the City Transit Division network, while the remaining 15% are on the Regional Rails and the Suburban Division (Red Arrow and Frontier). Most of the 15% are on Regional Rail.
About 80% of SEPTA's budget goes toward Regional Rail annually. The rest goes to the other divisions.
The board inequity is usually justified by the fact that most Regional Rail riders come in from the four suburban counties, thus each should be represented equally with no clear overrepresentation by the City. The vast majority of the CTD ridership is city-based. If you do the math, you learn that 85% of the riders are represented by 20% of the mandated Board (there are state and other political appointees). In political math, this is very fair - the city gets screwed, as well it should be by virtue of its being a large city in a heavily rurally-biased state.
The City contributes over $60 million of its budget to SEPTA each year. SEPTA gets 70% of the state's transit funding. Yet, we still have the highest fare in the US, a ragtag fleet of junkyard rejects, a workforce with an extreme case of attitude, and an overpaid staff that can't figure out why people aren't coming back after 40 days of respite last year. Gee, could somebody run this organization better?
Surprisingly enough, that was one of her suggestions-the city gets it's own transit system. Initially it would cost big bucks, but would the city really save lots of money in the long run?
By the way, SEPTA is beginning a $200 million replacement of the Bridge-Pratt (Frankford) Terminal. Every once in a while, SEPTA realizes it has a City Transit Division, between its tens of millions of dollars dropped on Regional Rail. And don't forget those 400 new buses you got last year. Most of them already can't talk any more and look as if someone had mudball fights in them.
The Septa board/budget ripoff is very similar to the RTA/CTA fiasco in Chicagoland. The problem in each case is very simple--the state, which has noney, spends as little as possible because real mass transit as opposed to cushy suburban service is considered to be one step up from welfare. You think I exagerate? Note the recent cuts in CTA bus services all over town while METRA is busy dreaming about expanding suburban rail service--both density and routes. Now don't missunderstand, I LOVE all rail operations, but the social inequity of cutting the one decent express bus from a segregated housing developement on the far South Side just as the residents are facing the welfare time bomb, is unspeakable. The officially suggested alternative routing would meran nearly 2 hour commutes each way to jobs downtown or near downtown. Expecting any rational person to spend 1/2 fte in transit at min or near min wage is laughable. You wouldn't.
SEPTA: Slowly Eroding Public Transportation Altogether.
SEPTA- Systematically Eliminating Public Transportation Altogether
And there's the always popular (but not G-rated) Sh..ty Excuse for Public Transit Anyway.
Or, the ever popular Slowly Eternally Taking every Passenger Through Agony.
No, its SETPIC!
Not to beat this to death, but, for us exhaust-treated riders of the Volvo articulated buses, Slow Exhaust Poisoining Troubled Articulateds.
Why do Boston trains (at least Red Line trains), run with red lights forward and headlights off?
All Boston rapid transit trains (red, blue, and orange lines) run with headlights off while approaching and in stations. Operators my put the lights on while in tunnels at their option.
I have asked "why" to inspectors, instructors, historians, and others... and have received no satisfactory answer. They all tell me, "That's the way we've always done it." Go figure.
The green line, by the way, which is under separate "management" being a light rail division, always runs with headlights on. Though this may be partly due to the fact that they headlights come on when the trolley reverser key is place in "forward."
Headlight use in Boston has always been optional, when there were any headlights at all. The first cars to be delivered with headlights good for seeing anything were the 1951 East Boston Cars (#3). The #1 & #2 cars were retrofitted as shopped for the various upgrades related to the Revere extension. These were seldom used. The Cambridge-Dorchester and Main Line cars delivered in 1963 and 1957 respectively were still devoid of illumination, though the C-D cars, 01400-01491, did receive locomotive style headlights when rebuilt around 1980. The #1 South Shore cars (1969) and all subsequent orders have been equipped with headlights.
Lower markers on all Boston Subway cars are fixed at red as were upper markers on the East Boston cars. Upper markers on Main-Line cars could be switched from red to white, amber or green to indicate routing. These were only used for lay-ups after the Atlantic Av. line closed in 1938. Cambridge-Dorchester cars were also equipped in this manner, but routings were never displayed. In the end, green markers would be displayed for Christmas, and red the rest of the year. The present upper markers are also fixed red, with sealed beam or high intensity lamps. As before they are displayed full time.
David i was checking some picture of R46. So this picture is from Smith-9th st at Brooklyn. Here is the picture of Smith-9th st .
Thanks for pointing it out-- forgot to put the caption in the database for that one. I'll add it.
-Dave
In the 1920's there was model board at Dekalb Avenue displaying the track circuit indications in the area and over the Manhattan Bridge. Did you know the indications for the track circuits show whether or not a train is moving in the track circuit? The brightness of the bulb would change when the train was on the move. Otherwise it would be steady. This was accomplished by the use of current transformers for each track circuit in the cases on the track. This has never been repeated again and the movement of trains cannot even be done with the computer systems of today.
COOL STUFF!!!
How did it do that? If a train is on the circuit, did it measure voltage drop as the train moved farther/closer to the Insulated joint and the transformer? This sounds like something I heard of with Cab systems. The whole "floating block" thing.
The Control Center, will they be able to control interlockings and such, or is it just a huge model board.
I have a detailed article from The Signal Engineer magazine from the first part of this century on this model board with circuits and photographs. The current varies at the feed end of the track circuit with train movement and that is what changes the brightness on the model board bulbs.
It's sounds simple enough. But why then did no one ever repeat it? I know the old BMT was innovative. And what does this owe in devolopmental linneage to today's modern Cab systems?
Well, many of the advanced grade crossing protection systems can detect if the train approaching it is moving, and at what speed. This is done to assure that a train going 4 mph on a 79 mph track does not put the gates down ten minutes before it gets to the gates....
That's done with timers and insulated joints.
I think the Constant Warning Time systems for grade crossing
protection use audio-frequency overlay track circuits that
don't require insulated joints.
I believe the equipment uses the signal strength on the return rail to measure distance - I suppose there is a big inductive loss. Then it computes speed based on the change in distance. I am pretty sure that it is NOT all insulated joint based because these systems work over long distances in welded rail territory, with a constant lead time for the gates at a wide range of speeds. You'd need a LOT of insulated joints to do that. They don't want joints at all, hence the audio system.
What you guys are refering to, is the systems used on modern high speed rail. In the good old fashioned Dark Territory, that is Long Island beyond Patchouge......
Hey, those people still use train orders. 'Nuff said.
Where's David "Mr Train Control" Rosenthal? I'm sure he can
field this question. I've never worked with a constant warning
time grade crossing circuit, so I'm guessing. I think it uses
an audio overlay track circuit with two receivers spaced a certain
known distance apart, and computes the direction and speed based
on the time between successive receivers dropping out.
Audio frequency track circuits do not require insulated joints
because the inductance of track is so high at those frequencies
(as opposed to the 25, 60 or 100 cy normally used) that the audio
circuit effectively ends within a few feet of where the leads are
attached to the rails. They are called "overlay" circuits because
they can exist independently within an existing conventional
line-frequency track circuit or DC track circuit.
The Master Towers will remain after the new Control Center is placed into service. This means that there will be three to four levels of controls for individual interlockings as follows:
Maintainers Control Panel
Auxiliary Tower
Master Tower
Control Center
This information is fact. There is presently 96 locations that will require code systems to the new Control Center. Big $128 million job with new Control Center.
Is there a reason why there have been so many exit closings over the years in the NYC subway?
Safety, usage, cost. The more fare barriers, the more token booths that have to be staffed. The more open exits, the more potential fare jumpers and, in certain areas (or at certain times of the day) the more loiterers and other such persons who represent a potential threat to passenger (and employee) safety that occupy them. Low-usage exits are closed to save on maintenance costs as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There has been the opposite trend in Chicago in the past year or so. Since the introduction of CTA Farecards, the CTA has re-opened many previously closed secondary station entrance/exits. Presumably the automated fare collection system has made this financially feasible.
In reguards to the CTA:
They have opened my old closed Exits and turned them into Exits and Entrances.
The new High-Barrier fare Gates have fare collection equipment built into them. Thus put up a fare-card machine and you have a full time Entrance/Exit with no need for an agent even during rush hours.
The only problem with this is that people who don't know where they are going have nobody to ask questions to.
Just another way the CTA is saving money & making the system easier for passengers to use.
BJ
PS: Let's just hope they don't decide to put these up all over the place and eliminate station agents with information kisoks.
They've done this in many NYCT stations as well, replaceing or supplementing the token-only iron maidens. The entire northbound B'way line from 207st to 238st has had them installed, and several previous 'exit only' locations now are 'metrocard required' entrances, as well as exits.
-Hank
Hank --
Actually, I think that the 238 St. station is northbound is still an "exit only" station. I've seen the Metrocard entrances on the other northbound platforms, but 238 appears to have only the old exits.
I'll double check on my next trip.
Chuck
Your right there is Exit only at 238 Street-Broadway Northbound Platform. Ofcause 242 Street is not that far anyway.
Before the Chicago Green line was rebuilt (and the Jackson Park branch cut back to Cottage Grove Ave.), several stations on the Branch were "exit only" on the southbound side. After the reopening, only King Drive remained (Cottage Grove being the end of the line). I'm not sure if this is still the case with the new CTA farecard system.
NYCT has installed HEETs (High Entrance Exit Turnstiles) at a num,ber of stations including NB at Jackson on the 2/5 lines in the Bronx and 14th/Union Square L/N/R/4/5/6 among others.
A HEET alone will not solve the problem of homeless begging near the entrance, and neither will TV cameras. I have worked in booths with cameras and many monitors have poor resolution that all I see is a faded blur, with no ability to distinguish features of customers passing near the cameras. Of course, some stations have excellent color monitors and razor sharp resolution.
The 47th-50th Rockefeller Station of the B,D,F and Q trains have this also at the 47th st and 48th street entrance and exits of this station. Sometimes during the day they close the regular turnstiles and people exit and enter using the HEETs.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
NYCT is installing more HEETs. Installing a HEET is not just installing a mechanical turnstile-- there are electric lines to run, and the HEET has to communicate with the terminal inside the Booth. In the booth, a HEET shows up as a 500 series turnstile--ie 501, 502, etc. The status screen will inform us of a problem with the HEET.
Long range plans do call for more HEETs- especially in stations already having an old toekn Iron Maiden. (I do not have a list of stations currwently with operative HEETs in use, Stations scheduled for HEETs and I do not have a list of iron maiden stations.) I do know that 81 and CPW has had a HEET to replace the Iron maiden at the 77 street entrance.
It's true that it is a short walk from 238th St. to 242nd St. station, but it seems to me there could still be reasons someone would want to get to 242nd St, without having to make that walk. Perhaps to ensure getting a seat on a rush-hour train (do the seats all get taken at 242nd?). The subway is supposed to provide service from any station to any station.
The same situation occurs at 145th St./Lenox Ave; 145th St. northbound is exit only. To get to 148th St. station you would need to ride down to 110th St. and back, since there are no crossovers at intermediate stations. Likewise, there are no crossovers on the 1/9 from 238th St. to 207th St.; the first is at Dyckman St. I can see that they wouldn't want to pay station agents to man booths at 145th/Lenox and 238th/Broadway uptown, but how much would it cost to put in Metrocard entrance turnstiles?
Well the crowd on the Uptown No.1 trains are light because most get off at Dyckman St, and 231 Street. So you have a good chance for a One stop seat. But also you have a Bus that runs on Broadway from 231 Street to the Bronx County Line which is the BX 9. looking at the Frequency of service on the Bus map it sez 4 to 10 minutes between busses. Also during rush Hours the No.9 Skips 238 St so you can be looking at a 8 to 10 Minute wait on the Platform.
I'm curious, though about what will happen this weekend for those who normally use 238 St. Southbound 1 trains will run express from 242nd to Dyckman, with passengers who wanting to go downtown from those stations taking an uptown 1 to 242nd for the express ride back down.
I guess that 238 St. will be effectively closed for the weekend, since there's no entry to the uptown platform.
I guess you could get off there, though.
Well as far as I know its Sunday Only but they would probably have Station Personal at the Gate. They would probably have a portable fare box like the ones they use to have on the Dyre Ave Shuttle when Conductors collected the fare and keyed open one door. But they have the Honor Syserm since OPTO.
HIgh Entrance Exit Turnstile for Metrocard and as usual the Iron Maiden for tokens if they still exist. hopefully personnel will be around??
Last time they did it, they had a station agent in a temporary booth, and cop next to one of those fare vaults. Metrocard users just flashed it, and went.
-Hank
The recent NY ERA mailing has info about an upcoming Coney Island Shops tour on May 22 (probably open to members only). Anyone going? I can't make it-- too many May deadlines plus I've been before so I figure let someone else have a chance. Anyone who goes and takes photos we'd be glad to have them for the site. For info you could call 718-243-8514 (that sounds like a NYC Transit "official" number and not the New York ERA itself so maybe it's not just for ERA members. Take your chances!)
Also, the National ERA convention is in Philadelphia this year over 4th of July weekend, featuring fan trips on the Media/Sharon Hill/Norristown lines, the City Division (Subway-Surface lines and some rare trackage riding in the Peter Witt and probably PCC cars), and a Market-Frankford trip in both the old cars and the new M4's. For info write ERA, Box 3323, New York NY 10163-3323.
Also, the Buckingham Valley Trolley Assoc. and the East Penn Trolley Club is running a Center City Philly trolley trip on Subway, May 2. For information visit http://www.eastpenn.org.
-Dave
There are a VERY FEW tickets left at $25 each for the "Over and Under Center City" fan trip sponsored by the BVTA in conjunction with the East Penn National Trolley Meet. To reserve a ticket (you'll need to send payment immediately) call George Metz at (610) 353-4982 or send email to him at gwmetz@aol.com.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the note. I was just working on the updated Philadelphia Transit section which made me think to mention those trips.
*For those who haven't noticed it, there are new writeups by Peggy Darlington and Bob Wright describing:
Market Frankford El
Broad St. Subway
Subway-Surface Lines
Norristown High Speed Line (Rt. 100)
Media-Sharon Hill Lines (101/102)
PATCO
I plan to attend the July ERA fan trips to get pictures for the new sections on the Norristown, Subway-Surface, and Media/Sharon Hill Lines. See you there!
-dave
Peggy has given me a number of SEPTA photos of both the MKT-Frankford and Broad St subway (elevated part) - hope to have some of these scanned in the not too distant future. Things have been crazy lately with the Y2K testing and all, bridgework, various things going on at home, etc.etc.
This Sat I will take a break from it all and go back underground for some more SubPhotos.
Wayne
Great, how about the revised SIR stuff? :)
-Hank
Wow!
You guys did a great job with those. I and two friends of mine( Jack and "The Hornet") plan to send in our pool of SEPTA pictures, mostly of the MFL. I have some hand drawn track maps. Can these be used?
I have a full set of track maps which Mike Adler's going to redraw for us. (When I mail them to him, that is :-/ )
But the pictures we could definitely use! As you can see most of the sections are pretty lacking.
Can you give me any information about this fantrip?
The first post in this thread (entitled "Coney Island Tour/Philly Fantrips" or something like that) has addresses/numbers for more information.
I just recieved word that the Coney Island Shops tour is open to anyone (not just ERA members) until capacity is reached. So anyone who'd like to check out the repair / overhaul shops at Coney Island give them a call. It's $15/person. Tour is May 22, starting at 10am at the Avenue X entrance to Coney Island Yard (at the F train stop). You can write to :
New York Division ERA
PO Box 3001
NY NY 10008
(enclose an SASE)
or to be on the safe side call first 718-243-8514 8am-4pm Mon-Fri.
-Dave
No answer but then I'm calling at Noon so it this is a TA number they are out to lunc?
Here's a little tech question: While waiting for a 6 today
I was staring across the track at a 5 car R62A set. The
drawbars were nice and fresh and caught my eye. I noticed
there are 3 pneumatic connections. Now, for married pairs,
those hoses are BP, SAP and reservoir, since the even car has
no compressor. Are the reservoirs of these 5-car sets being
tied together? If the answer is yes, my next tech question:
has a synchronizer wire been added?
As Richard Nixon liked to say, "I'm glad you asked that question."
First, the third air line is reservoir air and no, no synchronizer was added. The reason the reservoir line was added has a bit of history to it.
When the R-68As were linked, it was decided that 3 compressors would be adequate so the compressor on one of the 'odd' cars was removed. Obviously, this was done to reduce maintenance costs. (I will say that there were some in maintenance that this was ill advised). As the cars were linked, there was a corresponding increase in the number of hot grid incidents, on the cars without compressors, mostly. The reasons:
R-68As and R-68s and R-62As all have Westinghouse propulsion. Westinghouse propulsion relys on pneumatic power to drive the controller and that air came from the main reservoir. While it looked great on paper, the main reservoir on the car without the compressor was not replenished unless the operator periodically placed the brake handle into the full service position. For short runs, everything was fine but on longer express runs, the controller exhausted the air supply before it was replenished. Therefore, the main reservoir line was added to the R-68As. The number of hot grid incidents decreased so the MR pipe was incorporated on the R-68 snd R-62A linking.
As Richard Nixon liked to say, "I'm glad you asked that question."
First, the third air line is reservoir air and no, no synchronizer was added. The reason the reservoir line was added has a bit of history to it.
When the R-68As were linked, it was decided that 3 compressors would be adequate so the compressor on one of the 'odd' cars was removed. Obviously, this was done to reduce maintenance costs. (I will say that there were some in maintenance that this was ill advised). As the cars were linked, there was a corresponding increase in the number of hot grid incidents, on the cars without compressors, mostly. The reasons:
R-68As and R-68s and R-62As all have Westinghouse propulsion. Westinghouse propulsion relys on pneumatic power to drive the controller and that air came from the main reservoir. While it looked great on paper, the main reservoir on the car without the compressor was not replenished unless the operator periodically placed the brake handle into the full service position. For short runs, everything was fine but on longer express runs, the controller exhausted the air supply before it was replenished. Therefore, the main reservoir line was added to the R-68As. The number of hot grid incidents decreased so the MR pipe was incorporated on the R-68 snd R-62A linking. It was decided that the cost of adding the MR line to the links was worth the savings realized by dropping one compressor.
Which leads to 2 (count em) followup questions:
1. Let's say you have a train of WH-equipped single-unit or
married pair SMEE cars. Where is the air take-off for the
switch group reservoir? Is there a 70 psi feed valve? Why doesn't
the brake pipe air contribute to charging the main reservoir
on a car without a compressor.
2. If these trainsets have 3 or 4 compressors all "in parallel"
connected to the same M.R. line, how is that expected to work
without a synchronizer? Effectively, the car with the highest
governor cut-in setting will take all the load because it will
start pumping first and then the air pressure will rise, so none
of the other compressors in the parallel group will get down
low enough that their governors call them on (except for initial
charging when all of the tanks are empty)
The group box air comes from the main reservoir through a 70 PSI regulator. There is no compressor synchronization. We've gone to an electronic governor which is highly accurate. The car or pair using the air is usually the car or pair where the compressor runs.
PS
The Brake Pipe can't flow enough air to supply all the demand without a pressure drop. Enough of that, and you get CHOW!
A similar problem exists for the Main Reservoir air which explains why synchronization is not necessary. The MR pipe's allowable volume is to small to permit 'equalization' during most operation.
There's a choke between the main reservoir and the reservoir
trainline pipe, to limit air flow in the event of a rupture, right?
I noticed today at traintimes.com, that alot of trains between Boston and New York were running very late....some up to 2 hours or more...Does anyone know what the problem was???
Amtrak. That's the problem right there.
(I take the Northeast Direct to/from Hartford often. The train is a reliable 15 min late comming from the south into Penn. It's a realiable few minutes late into New haven. It's a reliable 15 late into Hartford. It sits in New Haven waiting for the Boston train heading south. I can understand the normal slew of problems. However:
A: The train takes forever at most stops. Only Amtrak seems to take 5 minutes to dump of 10 passengers.
B: There's no evil freight railroad to slow them down from DC to NY, yet, they are reliably late (about 8 out of the last 10 times).
C: Amtrak trains get passed by Metro-North trains on the New Haven line quite often. My guess is the M-2s can out accelerate them. Yeah, and they get priority too.
D: It's slow anyway - Amtrak crawls through Meriden and, Wallingford. Watching out the front of the Vermonter a few times, I see no reason why they do this either.
E: Sure, I'd like to think that the new Acella service will be worth the money. But my experience, and past history, has not given me much hope.
The only reason why I even take the Amtrak is because my parents will pay for it, as opposed to me having to shell out for a bus to New Haven and Metro-North. But Amtrak's schedule out of Hartford is less than convient, and I don't feel I'm getting all I should out of the service.)
Phil, etc. if you know ...
M-1 are the cars on the LIRR
I've been told Metro-North uses M-1 & M-2 ? What's the difference ?
(assume we're talking about the Hudson River line cars only)
What's the model number of the M-N cars that go to NH ?
Thanks, Mr t__:^)
New Haven line stuff is the M-2, M-4 and M-6. They all thave pantographs and AC capability (13kv, 60hz) The M-4 and 6 are also 3 cars sets. All of the models are VERY complicated, have been modified a number of times, but seem to be generally reliable, though I tend to think they require a LOT of upkeep. the M-2s also suposedly had air blast ignitrons in them originally, along with LIRR style MA sets (they are now static inverters).
The M-1a is used on the other lines. It features slight modifications, most noteably windows that open at the top (like on the subway). Oh yeah, and the third rail/speed control stuff. The M-3s they use are pretty much identical to the LIRR ones (as far as I know).
Thanks Philip ! That means the March '99 page in my WABCO calendar of a blue stripe at Marble Hill is probally a M-3, as was the cover shot of the '97 calendar.
As opposed to the Aug '97 shot of a M-1 yellow stripe (before the new head lights at top/center).
They do look very much alike so you have to recognize the background to know if it's LIRR or Metro-North ... kind of a buff trivia test.
Mr t__:^)
The New Haven cars also have dual power capability to use third rail or pantograph. Just North of NYC the third rail ends and the pantorgaphs are raised and power comes via caternary. My first trip on Metro North was to Rye and I did notice the cars had shoes and pantographs. I did notice a momentary loss of power- loss of A/C before power came back up.(The train did not stop because it coasted through the transition zone.)
The M-2s, 4s, and 6s I would imagine are very costly to maintain and that may be why riding the New Haven Line is a little on the pricey side. What I think Metro-North should do is switch to catenary/third rail engine-hauled trains (which they are alrady planning on doing but I think they're starting on the Hudson Line) and SEPTA should buy the "Cosmopolitans" from M-N and strip them of their third rail motors. Then SEPTA can do away those crappy ancient cars it presently has without having to buy expensive brand new cars. SEPTA would have to raise all of its low-platform stations (hear the groans from SEPTA management).
Of course, SEPTA management is probably too dumb and/or stubborn to realize that this might be a way to get more people to ride the train to work. The Cosmopolitan cars have high-back seats, bathrooms, Railfone, and some of them even have bars. It turns out that people actually like having these things on their trains, and that few if any of SEPTA's present trains have these modern features. And SEPTA wonders why people continue to drive.
I don't expect a wholesale switch to loco-hauled trains in electric territory. For one thing, acceleration and braking are a lot quicker/safer with MU equipment, every car having a motor. Lots of railroaders think NJT is going the wrong way in a switch to more loco-hauled trains. Hudson Line trains that are loco-hauled make the full trip to Poughkeepsie, well beyond electric territory.
-Hank
You know, I read that M-N is buying 21 single electric MU cars as well as more push-pull cars. The new MUs are expected to replace the really old ones from the Penn Central days. Does anyone know what going on with this?
How are acceleration and braking faster and safer with MUs? And if so, why aren't there more diesel MUs in service?
Disel MUs, in their last incarnation (Budd SPV2000, which stood for 'Self Propelled Vehicle', but was more likely to be understood as 'Seldom Powered Vehicle') They were essentially Amfleet coaches with a diesel engine. Many have been rebuilt into straight coaches for Shore Line East service.
As for acceleration and braking being faster (I can't figure out why I said safer) figure you have a 10-car train, each car weighs 100,000lbs, your loco 250,000. Now, put your propulsion ONLY on the locomotive. You need to generate a certain amount of torque just to start the train, and you move out slowly as the power builds. You also have only the 250,000 of tractive effort. Now, someone will correctme if I have the rest of this wrong, but if you put smaller motors on each axle of an MU car, you have those 10 MUs, each 100,000lbs, with the same tractive effort for each car. The first car accelerates just as quickly as the last car. The total tractive effort of the train is 1,000,000lbs. It's truly a lot more complicated than this, but this is the way I understand it.
-Hank
You have a lot less FRA mandated inspections switching to loco hauled instead of MU. As far as the FRA is concerned each motor on a MU is considered a Loco and must be inspected as such.
Maybe the payoff is there in the inspections/maintenance?
No wonder the service isn't popular like it used to be. It didn't surprise me at all when an Amtrak conductor said the end may be in sight for Amtrak service to Hartford and Springfield (although it will still be there for the foreseeable future according to another conductor).
By the way, the Inland Route is owned by Amtrak. Why it takes an hour to go 30 miles from Hartford to New Haven is beyond me too
There was a problem with the CTC system at Boston. Heard on the local TV news last night.
South side (from South Station) commuter rail trains had 1+ hour delays on the main line (Attleboro/Providence and Stoughton branches) and up to 30 min on the Needham branch last evening. TV/radio reports and an article in this morning's Boston Globe blamed a faulty computer at AMTRAK's dispatch center in Southampton Yard, causing signals and radios to fail. A new computer was shipped from Philly last evening (by air *grin*) and service is back to normal this morning.
Did they move the computer by subway from Logan (double grin !) Mr t
Did they move it on a train of R-68 counterparts?
I arrived at the Needham Heights station at my usual 5:28 P.M. to catch the inbound 5:40. The 5:00 train hadn't even shown up, and there were quite a few unhappy people waiting. I imagine we all wouldn't have been so pissed off if they had just announced the train cancellations over the PA system. I waited until 6:00, then gave up and went for drinks with my coworkers. Does it even occur to anyone in supervision that announcing delays in South Station and Back Bay Station doesn't help those of us out at the end of the line?
Can someone please explain to me what the difference between a "phase one" and "phase two" R-32 is? I thought for all these years that they all were the same. Also, does this have any bearing on why there are so many mismatched married pairs within the R-32 series? Thanks.
You can't be Pete the Mummy because I know you don't like being called that to your face. Since you are a conductor on the N line for many years, then you should know the difference. But for those who don't know, Phase 1 is GE controller & WABCO brakes; and Phase 2 is Westinghouse Controller with NY Air Brakes. P.S.: The Conductors behind you in seniority appreciate that you, despite your high seniority, continue to take Tuesday & Wednesday off. LOL!
Phase Is also have Thermoking AC while Phase II have Stone Safety AC. there's a difference in the door equipment too but I can't remember which has Vapor and which has Westcode.
Also, Pete works A.M.s,it would be kind of late for him to post this since he has to get up in the morning.
Plus I don't think that guy even owns a Computer. Garcia always struck me as a bit of a wierdo. But definitely NOT a railfan.
Some are mismated because some cars required more work than others so as not to hold back so many mates, the TA agreed to mismates being returned after rebuilding.
There are 25 mismatched pairs ("odd couples"), 24 of which are in service (the one out is #3904-3559 - fire damage in the E.River Tunnel after running over a wayward grate and shorting out the 3d rail, causing a blaze in #3904's undercarriage). One went up to rebuild as an odd couple - #3628-3669; both original mates met messy deaths crashing into (#3629) R42 #4612 and (#3669 original/#3668 renumbered to #3669) the curtain wall at the Malbone St.Portal 12/01/74.
Oddest one of all is #3348, formerly #3651, which underwent conversion from "B" to "A" due to #3620 being withdrawn due to frame problems.
I have the complete list, if anyone wants it I'll e-mail it.
Wayne
As far as I know, 3348 is the former 3659.
I stand corrected, you are right and it's right in front of me here in my book. Must have been thinking of the wrong car when I posted it.
The other one, as above is current #3669 being the former #3668.
Wayne
In the NY Daily News for Friday April 23, page 42, is an article about Charlie Morehouse who is the Chief Signal Officer for the NYC Transit Authority. Also on the same page is a small article about the Metrocard is now on the Internet.
After you good folks of SubTalk read the articles, your thoughts are most welcome as always.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Obviously, selling MetroCards through the internet
is a good idea, but when will we be able to add value to
the pay-per-ride cards online?
As far as the story
about Charlie Morehouse is concerned-it would at least
seem he should know how the system works since he came up
through the ranks. What bothers me is the trivia
sidebar(not in the online edition:The first trivia item is
that the orginal line still exists.)--when was the last
time anyone traveled the original line? It's in three
sections. How can this count as a line?
TA Fare Cards Hit
Internet
Spotlight on City People: Giving
Subway Green Light
Adding fare to cards over the internet would require mag-stripe reader/writers at home. I think that this is really just inviting more problems, rather than solving them.
-Hank
No, Hank that's not how they plan to do it. You'll have an account# in the system, kind of a positive list vs. what they call the negitive list (coined another term here, oh I'm hot today).
The current group gets billed after the fact, i.e. every time they use the system it records it & adds to a total in that persons' account. In the not to distant future you'll charge your account with cash or your credit card#. The TA gets to take in some of your cash either way & put it in a bank and get some "float" on it. When the balance goes down to some figure, they'll take in some more ... that's how it works in the E-Z-Pass system, so the MTA will copy it. On the Mail-N-Ride system they don't want your check anymore, because folks wait 'till the last minute to pay & they get no "float" that way.
At this depot they do the same to us. When we order MCs, they want the money upfront, so we don't order too many MCs at one time. I would guess it's the same deal for all the retailers of MCs, e.g. TA Museum?
Mr t__:^)
I like the similaries to the 'e-z pass' repleneshment system. But how will the repleneshment system work for those of us that use Staten Island express buses exclusively? The only Metrocard turnstiles on S.I. are at the St. George SIR terminal.
When you board the bus it'll record your visit, after checking the MC against the copy of the negitive list it has. When the bus returns to the depot & gets probed your activity will get passed to the mainframe that will delete the fare from your balance. So, if you gave them your credit card you have unlimited rides at $3.00 each (maybe they'll initially offer a discount to suck you in). If you insist on a cash basis, at some point your MC will make the negitive list & the friendly driver will ask you to deposit coin.
The point is that your card wo'nt have any money on it. The money will virtually be on the TAs mainframe. In actuality the TA will be getting "float" on those dollars.
Disclaimer: I don't how the system will actually work, just a reasonable theory from the little I do know.
Mr t__:^)
Re-charging your MC on-line ... the TA is working on that one.
I was told that they plan to switch the "Pay later" test group to "Pay up front", i.e. E-Z-Pass how about E-Z-Ride, you heard it here first, I coined the name ?
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA or TA or DOT
Mr t__:^)
On Sat at 6 Am (ET), the History Channnel is scheduled to show "End of the Line:the Story of the Rochester Subway." This is an EXCELLENT hour documentary on the ill-fated Rochester subway.It shows exactly what can go wrong in mass transit planning (and timing...). Well worth the effort to set the VCR...
Does anyone have info about the old LIRR Whitestone branch. They had stops in WHitestone, Corona. Whan was the line closed? Was the turn off somewere between Shea Stadium and Flushing? If so, could it still been seen today?(Behind NYCTA Corona Yard?)
There is a LIRR history page at:
www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/lirr.html
The Whitestone Branch page is not up yet but they say it's coming. Might be worth a look.
Steve
Whitestone Branch closed in 1932. Turnoff can still be seen just east of Shea Stadium station, behind the NYCTA Corona Yard. Corona Station, BTW, was on the Port Washington Branch and lasted officially until 1964, although by the mid-1950's only one daily train stopped there each way. On the Whitestone Branch, I believe the stops were Flushing/Bridge Street (which is why the existing station on the PW is still called Flushing/Main St.), Malba, Beechhurst, Whitestone, and Whitestone Landing, which was near where the Cross Island Parkway and Throgs Neck Bridge intersect.
I'll bet lots of people wish we could have that one back. Never break up a right of way.
Funny thing about the line too. They had just spent the money to electrify when they decided to abandon.
The Whitestone branch was built from Flushing to College Point in 1868 as part of the Flushing and North Side RR. It was extended to Whitestone in 1869 and to Whitestone Landing in 1883. The Flushing and North Side became a part of the LIRR (actually leased by the LIRR) in 1876, and fully merged into the LIRR in 1889. The Whiteston branch was abandoned 2/19/32.
Stations on the branch were as follows:
Flushing (Bridge St.) – on the north side of Northern Blvd., a block or so east of Lawrence St.
College Point – on the NE corner of 20th Ave. and 128th St.
Malba – just west of 144th St.
Whitestone – at 149th St. and 14th Ave.
Whitesone Landing – 10th Ave. and 154th St. From there, tracks led to a ferry pier on Long Island Sound.
I have a timetable of the Whitestone branch from 1928 on my LIRR History website at http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/timetabl.html. It's the last one on that page.
Why did the Whitestone branch close? Actually, as low ridership most likely was the immediate cause, a better question might be why did ridership decline. Areas served by the branch seem to be far enough from downtown Flushing that the IRT (extended to Main Street in 1928) shouldn't have been tough competition. Nor should increased automobile use have been a major issue back in 1932. Could the ridership declines have resulted from the Depression?
I'm sure the depression had something to do with the line's abandonment. My understanding is that the LIRR management wanted to abandon the branch for some time but the ICC refused to approve abandonment for a some years prior to 1932. I understand also that some of the r.o.w became the Cross Island Parkway stretch between the Whitestone and Throgs Neck Bridges.
(Why abandoned) I know that the north coast of Queens was one of the original "Gold Coasts," a place where New York's rich had their second homes. There are still a couple of mansions there. The LIRR was probably built to serve that market. But the rich moved further out.
Later, the area was built out with homes. I doubt there was much population in the area when the line was abandoned. It was built later, and the Whitestone Branch wan't on the way to somewhere else.
So you had 30 years between needs, and the ROW was broken up. That was the mistake. If the population was there, they wouldn't have closed the line.
I've deleted the TWU/Cop Killer thread because it was degrading into ad-hominem attacks, racist comments, and the anti-union/pro-union debate that doesn't really belong here. If you children can't all play nice it's time to get out of the sandbox. I for one am tired of the TA employees bashing each other here. Its obvious that some of you don't like each other but if you can't say it to each other's faces don't hide behind anonymous handles and post it here. This simply is not the place. Take the TA pro/anti-union rhetoric to some more appropriate forum.
Dave, I have to disagree with your decision to delete the latest messages on this thread (TWU supports cop-killers). Earlier today, "Announumous" made a very severe accusation against Steve. When I clicked on Steve's reply a few minutes ago, I saw that it had been deleted. As I see things, because "Announumous'" accusation had been on the board for a couple of hours at least, Steve's reply should have remained accessible for as long a period. It just doesn't seem right that more people were able to see the accusation than the response.
It all has to end somewhere...
I understand that the thread has to end somewhere, but in this case there was a highly damaging (and almost certainly false) accusation made against Steve, and he didn't get the chance to defend himself.
Well I'm sorry if that's the case however I cannot spend every minute of every day policing the board. If that's what it comes to (and it rapidly is approaching this) I'll just shut it down. The posts to which you refer shouldn't have been here in the first place and if they were here a couple hours and read by a few people I'm sorry about that. What it comes down to is a choice: either I police the board when it gets out of hand or I take it down. I'm not going to permit uncontrolled abuse on a system that I pay for out of my own pocket. Which do you prefer to have happen, in all seriousness? If you want, we can all create a Yahoo! Message Board and insult each other's work ethic and personal prejudices there. Recently SubTalk has gotten far afield of its original purpose and perhaps the site is better off without it.
Perhaps rather than have Dave police the board, people should E-mail him whenever they think a post is getting personal or insulting.
That still won't get the posts removed any quicker. And believe me I get plenty of feedback regarding subtalk and most of it is negative (which is probably just an example of the rule that people who have nothing to complain about don't say anything at all). The more complaints I have to read in my email is just food for the fire-- more pressure to shut it down altogether.
Besides, say I had let the cop killer/TWU thread continue to let everyone get a chance to defend themselves. Do you think that the next post by whoever would have returned it to civility? Hardly.
I agree 100% with David's actions and the reasoning behind it. Let's all work harder to keep SubTalk as a kind and gentle place to exchange thoughts, ideas, facts, figures, etc., that are transit related. If an issue does start going down the wrong path, let's at least not get nasty and personal about it. There are proper ways to express one's views; in return, those reading them should respect them and not respond to them in an insulting way. Sounds simple, but sometimes it takes some special effort. That effort is needed to keep SubTalk as good as it usually is. We should all make sure we never get to the point again that David is thinking about killing SubTalk.
I agree Sid. Dave has provided a nice place for us to hang out and I would hate so see it go away.
We need to keep it civil. Like my grandma used to tell me, Subjects to avoid in polite conbersation are, religion, politics and for this case we should add labor mgt clashes.
Have a nice weekend all.
Oh what "L" line is shown on Ted Dansons tv show Becker?
I would like to express my personal thanks to Dave for Subtalk....
I really enjoy reading and learning from the posts....
Perhaps someone can initiate an appropriate alt. netnews group to discuss labor-management related transit issues... I don't know how to do it, but it is said that it is comparatively easy to initiate an alt.* group.... Or perhaps someone can find a listserv site that would be willing to host such a group....
When you are in a foreign country, if you remember you are guests of the country, often things can be seen in a better perspective...
We posters/listees are guests of this wonderful site hosted by Mr. Pirmann... And all of us, IMHO, should not lose site of this fact...
Best wishes to all...
Morton Belcher
Dave I hope you dont do away with SubTalk. This is one of few pleasures in life I can enjoy, and I hope that a few adults will not ruin it for others and they should act more there age. For Christ sake Im only 19 and I act more mature.
All,
I'm not seeking praise every time this issue comes up. So don't worry about having to do that :)
If you are trying to find a better forum, there's http://clubs.yahoo.com/ and i'm sure there are others, that allow anyone to start up a "club" which includes a page for web links and a discussion board.
-Dave
I really haven't seen significant (let alone uncontrolled) abuse on SubTalk. Most of the threads are conducted at a polite and reasonably intelligent level. While it's true that some of the union talk has gotten a bit rough-edged, for the most part I haven't found it offensive or distracting, and in any event there's a clear transit relevance. There's very little else that's at all objectionable, certainly nothing that would distract from the overall experience. If only nyc.transit and misc.transport.urban-transit could be so civilized.
I'm not going to deny that the level of discourse had begun to deteriorate markedly on the "TWU supports cop-killer" thread. Nor do I disagree with your decision to get rid of it. My only point is that the timing could have been better, as the person wrongly accused of racist behavoir (Steve) was not able to defend himself in any meaningful way.
Peter—
I didn't see the thread, nor did I want to.
My time to log on this site is so limited, and the last thing I want to see is union members — or anyone else — arguing.
This is one of the places I come to relax. I may not say it, but I appreciate the service Dave provides us — at HIS expense.
They say timing is everything, and is this case, you may believe that the timing was poor. But what would you rather have — poor timing or no SubTalk? I know what my choice would be.
Dave, keep up the great work!
Michael
Has there been any useful discussion on misc.transportation.urban-transit in the last 3 years? I've long since given up on that LOOT-nonsense.
[Has there been any useful discussion on misc.transportation.urban-transit in the last 3 years? I've long since given up on that LOOT-nonsense.]
It's actually not too bad. More flamage and off-topic stuff that on nyc.transit, but compared to many other newsgroups it's pretty good.
Just as a clarification - I am NOT the same as the similar-sounding person mentioned above! (Indeed, I wasn't even on the board from late Thursday until just a few minutes ago.) I didn't see the post that was deleted, nor do I think that I want to. As Dave has indicated, personal attacks have no place on this or any other system.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Just as a clarification - I am NOT the same as the similar-sounding person mentioned above! (Indeed, I wasn't even on the board from late Thursday until just a few minutes ago.) I didn't see the post that was deleted, nor do I think that I want to. As Dave has indicated, personal attacks have no place on this or any other system.]
I knew that it wasn't you. The "Announumos" (or however he spelled it) who posted the flamage was definitely not someone who was familiar with how this board operates. I'm glad he hasn't returned.
I for one didn't read any of those threads. Or as I said the other day, just because the phone rings doesn't mean you have to answer it.
Thurston,
You're right-- people don't have to read messages in threads they think might be objectionable. If you were directing that to me in particular though, I feel I have a responsibility to read everything posted here, and I do as time permits. As the webmaster I'm in essense the publisher of what goes on here and I don't think that the web server resources should be allowed to be abused.
-Dave
I personally feel that all employees of NYC transit should keep there posts related to just answering questions and maybe relating a personal experience regarding equipment and so forth. However union matters and contracts and personal opionions should be left out and posted elsewhere!
Dave, It is indeed your "house" and I am a guest. And a wonderful house it is! The thread in question felt pretty far off topic, but having run some time I put in my 2 pence. As to "washing dirty linen" between labor and mgmt, however, that is very deeply related to the economics of our beloved rail systems. That said, ad hominem is still rude. Thanks again for the site and kudos for newer philly stuff. You might ask "bobw" to do a part on the extensive concourse surrounding the BSS and MFL in the Center City area. Peggy referrred obliquely to it in her station by station on Patco, but a separate piece might be in order.
Mine was one of the deleted posts, and I'm NOT unhappy. Dave pays the bills, and is nice enough to let all of us in. IMHO, the thread should have been killed early, before it degenerated into name-calling and assorted insults. Dave doesn't have the time to play policeman for the "children", so we all need to be the adults we are supposed to be.
I agree with everyone who said to get rid of things that do not belong on SubTalk. Dave Pirmann is right in saying that he will take it down. This post is just supposed to be about questions and answers about Subways and Buses from around the world.
Dave Pirmann keep up the GOOD WORK and DELETE anything that does not belong on SubTalk until yours hearts content.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Dear David:
As of a few days ago, I realized that there was a certain level of conflict in the back and forth of the posts I was reading and responding to. I also realized that this was leaving me with a bit of aggrevation. I didn't want to visit here to get mad.
As so many others have pointed out in this exceptionally long thread, this is a site for the exchange of knowledge and is set up through your private expense. Although running off on a tangent can some times be good, the whole labor - management thing, and now the political issues....
Because I started a few of those raucous threads, I've changed the subjects of my posts, as I'm sure many of you have noticed, to ones that can better share my knowledge with those of you on SubTalk, rather than get all of you into discussions I'm better off having with the folks at 80 West End Av.
Thank you Dave for having this site. Excercise your editorial licsence as you see fit.
Does anyone have any photographs of the wooden escalators at 59th Street station the 3rd Avenue El? Would like a copy.
Look in the book "By the El" by Lawrence Stelter. Pages 72 and 73 have shots of the 59th Street station and the esclator housing, but not a detail of the escalator itself.
Spotted the R-110B's in revenue service yesterday afternoon on the C train......Does any one know what LED numbers below the "C" on the front of the R-110B "A" cars is for? The numbers seemed random....will they be used on the R-142/R-143?
Also -
Has anyone noticed that on some R-44's on the "A" there appears to be recorded announcements rather than that from a conductor. It is a male voice that speaks slowly and clearly "Next stop is One Hundred Forty-Fifth Street...Transfers available here for the Downtown A, and all C trains....B and D trains are on the lower level".....etc.
Is this something being tested for all trains, or the High Tech's only?
Michael
I know the number board on the R110A/B is and indicator that uses army time to tell supervision what time the trains scheduled time of
departure is. I did not know they are testing autimated station annunocements on the R44's, but I will keep an ear out for them.
Peace
DaShawn
Oh! I forgot to say that the scheduled time of departure if from the terminal from either end.
Peace
DaShawn
Has anyone noticed that on some R-44's on the "A" there appears to be recorded announcements
rather than that from a conductor.
Are you sure you mean the R44, and not the R68? The R68s were equipped with computerized next stop voices, but as far as I know the TA rarely uses them. -Nick
Why don't they use the automated voice on the R-68s? Then we can say "Well, at least the R-68s have clear announcements" when somebody makes fun of them for being so slow.
Only 8 R-68 cars were equiped for automated announcements.
Are the annoucement like the M-4 cars. What are te numbers of the cars and what line are they on.
Here in Boston, our 1800-series Red Line trains have excellent automated announcements. It is a human voice, with good inflection and clarity. The operator can override the announcements, of course; at Charles St./Mass General Hospital we hear an automated "Next Stop! Charles MGH!" Then the operator adds, "Mass Eye and Ear Infirmary."
The new 3800-series Green Line trolleys have a more synthesized voice; monotonic and less human-like. Another thing I didn't like about it was the choice of phraseology for the routing. When the doors open at a station, it says, "The last stop on this car is - Riverside!" If you're not listenting too carefully, you can hear the phrase "last stop" and miss the rest, thinking the car isn't going anywhere else. The Red Line uses the phrase "The destination of this train..." which I think is much better.
Does anyone remember the original computer-generated voice on the Hartsfield Atlanta Airport peoplemover when it opened around 1980? It was a monotone "PLEASE MOVE TO THE CENTER OF THE VEHICLE AND AWAY FROM THE DOORS!" People always laughed at it, but they listened. In recent years, it has become a human voice, and no one pays attention.
Gee... as one who does professional voiceovers, I'd like to get the contract to do the R-142s! Anyone from NYCT lurking out there???
According to something I read on the internet today, an automated announcement that the plane was going down in the water, with emergency instructions, was accidently triggered over the Atlantic on a British Airways flight recently. People took it seriously and were paniced until the flight crew calmed them down.
If the Manhattan Bridge keeps deteriorating, maybe they ought to put that announcement on the R-68s.
Our LRVs in Denver have automated announcements. They're clear and very easy to understand. As you approach downtown, specifically 14th St., there is an additional "Thank you for using RTD light rail".
We have ATAS called Automatic Train Annoucement System on MARTA using a 486 computer and tags mounted on the crossties. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Good Luck!!!
Ther are automated announcements on the new LIRR C-3s ad-nauseum. They consist of 2 lines (enroute) or 3 lines while in a station. For example, the train I was on this morning:
DING
"This station is Jamaica"
"This is the train to Patchogue"
"The next stop is Babylon"
Once the train is enroute, the announcement is repeated every few minutes, sans the "This station is" part.
Great if you worked all night and just want to sleep.
Can the others be equipped with the automated voice? What about the R-68As?
I was wondering if the R-46s could be outfitted. They already have electronic signs on their sides, so automated announcements would a logical step forward.
The second generation of luminator sign has both LCD Display and an audio enunciator. I think they were used by MARTA for the olympics.
Does the recording say "Please?" LOL!
Thanks Peggy and BobW(Mr. Wright) for all your work. As earlier stated, I will try to get in those photos I'm always talking about(it's an issue of locating them in my maelstrom of a den).
Uh oh, the nom de plume is out of the bag. My identity is exposed. Oh well...
That's a nom de web, not a plume. Don't worry, we don't byte.
nom de plume, nom de guerre
BOOOOOOOO!!!!!
-Hank ")
...for the National Planning Conference. While I'm there, I'll be taking guided tours of:
1) the Metro Transit Tunnel, presently used for buses but intended to be used by the light rail system which is in the final planning stages, and
2) the commuter rail line that should be opened by the end of the year. According to the Sound Transit website, the rail cars have been purchased, and many of the stations are under construction.
Of course, while I'm there, I'll also ride the Monorail and the Waterfront Streetcar line. Any other suggestions on what to see rail-wise in the immediate Seattle area?
P.S. to Larry Littlefield: the 2000 NPC is at New York City, so you should be able to attend!
HAVE A GOOD TRIP. MAKE SURE YOU SEE THE SKY NEEDLE. I HOPE IT DOESN'T RAIN TOO MUCH FOR YOU.
MAYBE, YOU CAN TELL USE ABOUT YOUR TRIP WHILE YOUR THERE BY SUBTALK.
HAVE A GOOD TRIP.
Thanks!
MAKE SURE YOU SEE THE SKY NEEDLE.
I forgot about the Sky Needle! I'll go there, though, of course, it doesn't hold a candle to the Sears Tower (or the Empire State Building, for that matter). (^:
I HOPE IT DOESN'T RAIN TOO MUCH FOR YOU.
Yeah, I hope so, too. Although my understanding is that it's a light drizzle and rarely becomes a really HARD downpour.
MAYBE, YOU CAN TELL USE ABOUT YOUR TRIP WHILE YOUR THERE BY SUBTALK.
I intend to brief you all on the rail-related aspects of the trip when I get back. But unfortunately, since my Internet access is strictly through my computer at work, and it has no remote access, I won't be able to post to Subtalk or send e-mails while I'm in Seattle.
I asked the techs why they couldn't have one or two terminals in an office at the Conference so that APA employees could check their e-mails and have access to files. They said it was technically feasible but that the telecom charges (Seattle to Chicago) would be murderous.
John B. Bredin, Esq.
jbredin@planning.org
Who do you work for? I have never heard of "APA," but it sounds interesting.
Thanks,
Brandon Bostian
John
Don't work too hard and I really want to hear about the streetcar line. Have a great time
I just had a thought. I have noticed a lot you have been saying how the trains in NY haved slowed down quite a bit as far as speed and acceleration goes. Do you feel when CBTC train control comes on line will the TA speed the trains up a bit or not?
(Will CBTC speed up the trains) Reuter said trains will be able to go much faster off peak. At peak, he said that more trains could be run (the short distance between trains would presumably limit speed).
Communication based train control "cbtc" SHOULD provide a more safer train operation as for being faster that is a matter of speculation. Fixed signals and train deceleration/braking are still a factor since subway cars presently have composition brake shoes. it'll be quite awhile for CBTC to be system wide i'm not holding my breath for its introduction. The new Control Center at 9th av and 54th st won't be in operation till 2002 and only the IRT will be onine first. IND/BMT will be later introduced.
More question about the LIRR Whitestone Branch. Are there any traces
left of the line? If so where can I see them? Is the lead behind NYCTA
Corona yard the only thing left?
I cant believe there was a commuter line running through my back yard.
So far the process works.
On Monday evening I opened an account (E-mail address, password (of my choice), snail mail address and of course Credit Card #.
I ordered 1 of the special issue cards in the $15 value. Within a few minutes I received an E-mail confirming may order. The next day (4/20) I received an E-mail advising when the order was filled and shipped (their terminology). The advisory was 3 to 7 days business days depending on where you live (we are talking US mail here).
Well, lo and behold, today 4/23 it was in my mailbox. It comes in a non-descript brown envelope with just a return address so that no one will try to "intercept" it if it had said MetroCard on it. The card itself is "packed" inside a stiff cardboard brochure. The card is in the standard plastic wrapper.
We will see what it says on my credit card bill when I get it later in the month.
I think this is a good way to get special issue cards when they are offered on Citysearch. You don't have to worry if the Transit Museum stores will have it when you visit.
Stef, Have you considered buying your own MC for the TA Museum ?
Talk to me off-line, it's not as expensive as you might think !
Mr t__:^)
Are these personalized metrocards used as a fundraiser? Or just advertising? A "New York's Transit History" metrocard would be cool, with a photo montage of items from the collection of the three nearby trolley museums with NYC stuff (TMNY, Shore Line, Seashore). For instance, Kingston's R16, Seashore's R4/R7, and the TARS car at Shore Line. Just a thought!
Fundraiser, no. There's no way I know of for anyone but the TA to make money on this, so it's a matter eating a cost per card to have something unique to sell at your store OR pay this adv. cost and let the TA sell the card with your logo through out the system, i.e. Tired of the underground, take a ride on an open trolley at ... etc.
The "MetroCard Development" office will gladly take your order for at least 10,000 MCs (50,000 would be cheeper PER CARD). There's a cost to get the graphics "camera ready" & you would have to deal with the problem of the whole order getting "encoded" when delivered to you (i.e. ONE: You would have to BUY them if you're going to sell them, TWO: Expiration date ... if it takes too long to SELL the cards, some may EXPIRE before you can sell them).
I know the phone# & e-mail address of them and a few more details, so contact me off line if any of the museums have interest in this.
DISCLAIMER: I don't have anything to do with this officially, its just that at this depot we are considering it, as we sell MCs, i.e. I made a couple of calls & found out it wasn't all that expensive to do.
Mr t__:^)
Dave: Just wanted to say thanks for a great web site and a place to talk with other railfans. I don't know if most are aware that this web site is in effect a public service maintained by you at your expense in both time and money on top of which you have a regular job.(That's the one that pays the bills and puts food on the table).
I believe that you are right to limit discussion here to matters germane to the interests of railfans. We all have our jobs and I'm sure that we all have our gripes. I think even Moses complained about getting his feet wet when he crossed the Red Sea. I look forward to coming home at night and visting this website for rail news and good discussion.Please keep up the good work.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I may have mentioned or alluded to this before, but SubTalk is NO PLACE for arguments, bashing, accusations, hate-mongering, racial or non-racial epithets &c. &c. It is a forum for those who enjoy and appreciate New York's great Subway system, whatever its shortcomings may be. If we lose this due to the senselessness of others, then the world is a poorer place. As the sign says: NO MAJOR FLAMAGE. There's a time and place for venting of anger and the like, but it sure as hell isn't here. Keep the board, give the agitators a polite reminder, if that don't work, give em the boot (like was done to Septa Sea Hag last year).
BTW - I will officially refrain from using bullets from here out, unless there is a compelling and illustrative reason for using one.
I had no idea they were going to cause such grief. I was also unaware that people could actually use the Internet in a non-graphical environment.
Wayne
I second Wayn'e opinion.True= the transit system is not perfect and it never will be- Transit employees be they management or working class, male or female, black or white or Asian-they are all imperfect people in an imperfect world.
In SubTalk we have a unique vehicle to discuss our enjoyment of, and unique qualities of our unique system.
We stand on a threshold today-- On one side is the loss of SubTalk due to flaming and hostility--a great loss, on the other side is a continued SubTalk and sharing of knowledge and love of the subway system.
People- the choice is yours. If you wish to flame someone do not use SubTalk unless you want SubTalk to go away.
We can never replace what is lost. I left the city, not willingly, in 1966. When I returned in 1994 we had lost :Myrtle El Brooklyn to Jay Street, Culver Shuttle, Third Ave Bronx El, Jamaica El to 168 from 121. I constantly read posts lamenting over their loss. Will be be reading posts on the forthcoming death of SubTalk?
only ***YOU** can decide--the future is in your hands. Decide wisely!
There can be only time for decision-- Dave is at the decision point N O W and needs our decision-- Decide Wisely!!
I don't flame, willingly start wars, and always try to thank Dave for this wonderful resource. I too stumbled into this site and SubTalk. I'm in Baltimore, and remember the Q's and BRT 1300's on Myrtle, Lo-V's on the IRT, 15 cent tokens, Black Cars on the H&M, and a lot more. I've made some good friends on this board, and I don't want Dave to pull the plug (even though it's his house and his dime).
As Subway-buff as wisely said:
only ***YOU** can decide--the future is in your hands. Decide wisely!
There can be only time for decision-- Dave is at the decision point N O W and needs our decision-- Decide Wisely!!
Please, please do not pull the plug on Subtalk. It is so much fun to come home after a hard day's work on the computer drawing things and be able to have some fun checking on all the transit happenings!
I love this site - please keep it. Tell everyone with their nasty
opinions to go somewhere else and gripe. I love to hear from all the guys in Philly who keep me up to date with SEPTA.
Chuck Greene
I guess I missed what triggered this discussion, but losing SubTalk would be really awful. It would be like losing the Sand St complex, Park Row, Myrtle El Brooklyn to Jay Street, Culver Shuttle, Third Ave El, Jamaica El to 168 from 121, and a few others, all at once.
I certainly "mine the gold" that I find here.
--Mark
Not to mention the R-1/9s, R-10s, and any other cars any of us may have been fond of.
Anybody know if the R142 will be fast as a Redbird or R62 or will it be overall slow?
The R-142s, which will not be equiped for CBTC, will be subject to the same speed and braking standards of the current equipment. Reliability will be interesting to see. Since there will be an R-142 and an R-142A, it'll be interesting to see which performs better "out of the box".
Speaking from the experience of having worked for both of those companies, whatever Kawasaki delivers will probably be the better car.
Because AC drive has an infinite range of cruising power settings, unlike traditional DC, The R142's (guessing) will probably accelerate about the same as current equipment at low speed. At higher speeds, it may maintain that rate to a programmed top speed, say 45. The TA likes that number.
The ArrowIII's that NJT has are AC drive. Those cars have only three power settings, so they could be run with the older ArrowII's. They had an old series/paralell arrangement.
When cruising at 80MPH on the corridor, engineers have to coast to keep from exceeding the speed limit. The track is good for 125, but the FRA wouldn't certify the Arrows for over 79MPH for various reasons.
As the train would slow, the engineer would open the controller to bring them back up to speed. Those cars would just SURGE foward! It's like the effect of going from seies to paralell on a subway car, except at 80 MPH!
Amazing!
I love AC. I'm just a bit trepidatious of how it's going to work here.
>The ArrowIII's that NJT has are AC drive.
Are they a "pure" AC drive in that they have synchronus motors, or are they phase angle contolled DC motors? Were they always this way, or was it the result of a rebuild? Is that why they have those ugly resistor assemblies on the roofs?
>When cruising at 80MPH on the corridor, engineers have to coast to
>keep from exceeding the speed limit. The track is good for 125, but
>the FRA wouldn't certify the Arrows for over 79MPH for various
>reasons.
Why won't they let them do 125? They are probbably capeable of it..
>As the train would slow, the engineer would open the controller to
>bring them back up to speed. Those cars would just SURGE foward! It's
>like the effect of going from seies to paralell on a subway car,
>except at 80 MPH!
By far my least favorite thing about those cars. Most favorite is the way they "turn on" right as they leave the terminal, and also thew traction motor noise - BTW, what's the HP rating on them anyway?
The motors are synchronus AC. They are totally new from Sweeden. Asea makes them. They have a forced air venting system. because they run at over 120 Centigrade. There are four motors on the "A" or even car of a pair. The Odd, or "B" car has only two. Both are on the #2 truck, or the one on the blind end. The lead truck of the B car has no motors at all.
This is the reason the cars aren't cleared for more than 100 MPH. The tread brakes they're equipped with act upon the wheels tread face. Traditional. Because of the tremendous heat generated at high speeds, wheel wear and break shoe especially, is a big factor. Had that truck been equipped with disc brakes to supplement the tread units, it would have been different.
In addition, should there be a failure of the dynamic brake, the tread brakes would have to act alone.
As re-built the cars were certified for 100MPH. There were some problems with gear boxes and a few locked axles. So NJT brought them down to 80. I'm not sure if they've gone back to 100 yet. I know who to ask though.
Those ugly resistor grids on the roof are for the dynamic brake. Something they didn't have previously. They're mounted up there for the cooling effect of passing air.
Engineers love it because they stop so much better now, no brake fade.
Total horse power for a pair is 760. That's divided 6 ways. Single Arrow's are less. BTW the singles also have a a special emergency brake for when they run alone.
Does anyone have the specs for NJT's COmet push pull cars?
Yes, I worked on the Comet IV cars for Bombardier. I also gained some experience with them, while at ABB Traction (now AdTranz). I had to ride ALP-44M's on the corridor every day for 7 months, while I monitored the cab signal system. My time at NJT as a car inspector, was before the III's showed up. So I don't know that much about them in particular. The other cars, I know pretty well.
So what would you like to know?
I'm visiting Chicago and while on the way to the hotel (via shuttle bus - sorry!), I had the opportunity to ride next to the grade-level tracks from O'Hare.
While looking at them, it appeared that the third rail did not have a protective cover over it.
(1) Was I correct, or did I simply not get a good look at it?
(2) If I was correct, is this the norm for most subways or do most have the third rail protected (ala NY)?
Thanks!
Chip
Chicago uses a different shoe configuration than NYCT. NYCT uses a shoe that reaches out to the third rail. CTA's shoes are direct-contact, and go straight down off the shoe beam. I believe the old IRT els used the same type of shoe.
-Hank
A question on shields over the third rail. I'm guessing that you could actually walk on the shield without getting fried. Would this be true or false? Mind you I'm not going to be doing any third rail walking thats for sure.
[A question on shields over the third rail. I'm guessing that you could actually walk on the shield without getting fried. Would this be true or false? Mind you I'm not going to be doing any third rail walking thats for sure.]
I can say from direct observation that LIRR shields are indeed insulated. Crossovers at the three-platform Ronkonkoma station are located at the west end and the center of the platforms. As a result, people riding in the head cars of trains out of Penn Station have a somewhat lengthy walk if they need to get to the other side of the tracks. And there frequently are a few idiots who actually walk across the tracks rather than spend a few more minutes to use the crossovers. On a couple of occasions, I've seen people actually step on the third-rail shields in the process. Should one of these covers unexpectedly come loose when stepped upon, we'd have a new nomination for the latest Darwinian Award.
In London none are protected except the Docklands where collection is taken from the underside.
[While looking at them, it appeared that the third rail did not have a protective cover over it.
(1) Was I correct, or did I simply not get a good look at it?
(2) If I was correct, is this the norm for most subways or do most have the third rail protected (ala NY)?]
Answer to #1, you are correct. Chicago has an "exposed" third rail and does NOT have coverboard protection. The Boston rapid transit system uses the same method. The 'L' can't use coverboard protection as the design of the truck and third rail shoe assembly, the third rail shoe actually rides above the third rail, can not accommodate it.
Answer to #2, define "the norm". If you consider most third rail operated lines employ third rail coverboard protection, and NYC is one of them, then Chicago and Boston are not "the norm".
While maybe not the norm, the Chicago, Aurora & Elgin Railway, used to employed an same system exposed third rail system as the 'L' (it used the 'L' to gain access to the Loop). Its lines ran through towns and villages to their terminals located forty miles from the Loop. Although abandoned in the 1950's, and finally dismantled in the early 1960's, the line presented a threat to anyone trespassing on the right-of-way.
It is my understanding that third rail installations were all "exposed" and the use of coverboard protection evolved with time.
Does anyone know what system was the first to use coverboard protection?
Jim K.
Chicago
It was used very early on - the LIRR had them from the start on the run to mineola and the abandoned Mitchel Field run. The IRT had them origionally too. Third rail covers are basically lawsuit deflectors, though they have (limited) value in ice conditions too. I don't know if they were ever required anywhere though.
On the subject, why do bridges over overhead powered train lines have metal plates on the side so you can't see the ROW when passing over them?
It's because they don't want any people to fall and get fry. They don't want their service delay because someone fell on the power lines. That's mainly why.(My Guess).
It's becoming standard, especially (but not exclusively) over passenger tracks. The concern is that someone will throw an object over the side with the intent of striking the train; the likelihood of this happening is significantly reduced when the perp can't see the damage inflicted, hence no thrill from the act.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the MAIN reason would be to keep someone from throwing a rather large and bulky obect over, (like a shopping cart, as is popular on the SIR, right behind baby strollers (sans baby) and paint cans) possibly bringing down the catenary lines, and shorting, causing MUCH more severe and longer-lasting problems than a damaged or stopped train.
I also have to say, this is nowhere near new. There are bridges which carry US9 and NJ35 over former PRSL lines that have full-height concrete walls poured in place; I'm sure several hundred others also exist.
-Hank
Dave;
When i was growing up in Queens, the kid with the broom stick and the "Pensy Pinky" always made the rules. It's your ball and your rules. However, nothing in NYC is free of politics, especially transit. I don't see how you can seperate the two. A couple of points should be raised here.
OPTO
Here is a topic that has more to do with the struggle between management and labor and less to do with choo-choo trains. As Erik put it, OPTO is management's final solution. Now there's a incidiary comment about management, relating (us) to Nazi's, from an openly admitted TWU shop steward. (and I have no axe to grind with Erik, who I hope to meet soon) Is any thread on OPTO to be deleted or does it get to stay because there have been no heated replies?
Harassment of TWU members through the enforcement of Sick Leave rules.
This thread and others about harassment of hourly employees such as not giving time off, have been discussed contentiously without pulling the plug.
We've discussed Bernie Goetz and lawyers and extending/closing the G line on this site ad-nauseum. Supposedly non-political threads have gotten very heated while political issues have remained civil. We've all seen threads which start out on one subject and drift in an altogether different direction. Who's to know where any thread will lead? As to my original posting, I still feel that it was and is transit related and a legitimate topic of conversation. The fact that it got heated is unfortunate but should not detract from the validity of the topic. However, it is your game and your rules will prevail.
Again, permit me one personal note:
The terms "Harassment" & "Racist" have been exploited to death in the TA. Virtually every hourly employee who is disciplined is either being harassed or his/her supervisor is a racist. The terms have become expected in the field. Unless they can be proven, I lose no sleep over either charge.
Sorry!
Posted that one before I got to the "deleted threads" postings. Should've left out the Part about Final Solution. But I stand By my opinions.
and hey, what's that "admitted" stuff about being a shop steward? It's a crime, that I should hide it?
Nope: Nothing wrong with being a "Shop Steward". I was just emphasizing the point about the labor/management struggle in transit. On the other hand:
Perhaps you should, (as a union official) visit my location some evening and talk to our TWU Vice Chairman (he works nights). It might suprise you to see management, hourly and the TWU working together without the antagonism that has been portrayed here.
Steve,
I'm not saying I think that the two should in all cases be separated. I think you know me better than that, and I think you know I respect your input here. I think even you can see the difference between a civil discussion and one that is getting out of hand with the "heated replies" no matter how much you want to say they are both just "politics".
By the way, Steve, the entire sick-leave thread is still present. While it might have been a little off topic, by the end I don't recall ad-hominem attacks, racial accusations, etc. I'm sure you can go quote me posts including such things that I have missed/let go on the board. I'm sure they *are* there. If you want to put me on the spot and say why this thread and why not that thread, and have me come up with hard and fast rules: it's not worth my time. See you on clubs.yahoo.com.
-Dave
In case someone is interested in setting up a message board to discuss some of the more heated topics, I did some looking around and found some other free services.
Excite Communities:
http://www.excite.com/comm/new/
Yahoo! Clubs:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/
InsideTheWeb Free Custom Message Boards:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/
Casual Forums:
http://www.casualforums.com/
Assembly:
http://assembly.nerdworld.com/
-Dave
In the NY Post Saturday April 24, page 12, is an article about Councilman Morton Povman from Queens said he opposes the plan to connect Kennedy Airport and Jamaica, Queens, with an ''Air Train'' along the Van Wyck Expressway.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the article, your thoughts as allways are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
QUEENS COUNCILMAN MIGHT DERAIL TRAIN-TO-THE-PLANE
Very interesting. I, like many other contributors here, want the existing, abandoned LIRR Rockaway Branch used. Based on all this talk about the Van Wyck monorail going on over the past year or so, how come all of a sudden one councilmember can derail the whole thing?
I think it is ridiculus that a city as large as New York does not have direct rail access to its airports
I think it is ridiculous that with a subway and the LIRR within 3 miles of the terminal buildings at JFK airport that they needed an incompatible mode that requires at least one change of trains to get anywhere. Especially when people have to carry baggage.
I think it is ridiculous that people along the Van Wyck are going to be annoyed by a short train in each direction every ten minutes when now a bazzilion cars a day drive by.
There must be more than meets the eye with the councilmens opposition.
When I was a lad JFk was the one of the only airports that offered overseas flights. Things got so crowded on Sundays that people often had to wait in line outside the terminal in the cold to check in. Now other US airports are offering many overseas flights, If Newark Airport gets direct rail access to Manhattan it will put JFK at a competitive disadvantage. New York better get its act together and build something!
I agree. Why do the powers that be not understand that the general public does not want to make transfers. Sure, we do--and as many different ways as possible--but Joe and Jane Citizen are not going to leave their cars home if the rail service is not totally convient. This means easy access to the lines to the airports and a one seat ride direct to the terminals.
Absolutely! By (mostly) public transportation, it takes me three changes from my house in NJ to JFK - car to the train station, NJT to NY Penn Station, A train to Howard Beach, shuttle to the terminal. Total time consumed, when there aren't any delays: 3 hours 45 minutes. Or, I can drive to JFK (non-rush hours) in just over 1 hour 30 minutes (rush hour, going via Outerbridge and the Verrazano across Staten Island, takes about 1 hour 45 minutes). Just eliminating the change at Howard Beach would save 15-20 minutes, more when I'm dragging more than one bag up those @^$#! steps.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
However, Newark Airport is not getting a one-seat ride to Manhattan either. The airport monorail will be extended to a new station on the Northeast Corridor. The transfer situation will be much like the Air Train to JFK.
There also has been a plan to extend light rail to the airport, but this would go to Newark Penn Station, not Manhattan. Also, light rail would connect with the monorail in one of the parking lots; it would not serve the terminals directly.
(Newark not getting a direct ride).
If PATH were not funded by New Yorkers, I would say they should have just extended the Newark PATH to the airport. Among other things, that would have provided a one-seat ride from WTC, the Jersey Waterfront, and Downtown Newark. That's all water under the bridge, though.
JFK is way out there. I think you are going to need the speed of commuter rail, and if that requires a connection, then that's what we'll have to do. The more important improvment is a direct connection from LaGuardia to the subway.
> If PATH were not funded by New Yorkers, I would say they should
> have just extended the Newark PATH to the airport
Ahh the "Mayor mentality"-- as if no New Yorkers ride PATH or use Newark airport... if this were the case we wouldn't need to be talking about airport access to Manhattan. Tourists and New Yorkers should just use LGA instead, right?
-Dave
There problem with regional solutions is they tend to redistribute income upward. The arrangement is that the suburbs provide good schools and low taxes for those who "deserve" them, while New York City get to most all of the region's mentally ill and dependent while subsidizing those elsewhere. Objecting to this arrangement is not parochial. It's just a matter of survival.
Personally, I like the Pataki plan. New York gets "New York" assets, New Jersey gets "New Jersey" assets, and shared assets stay as they are. The surpluses from LaGuardia and JFK could be used to build the rail connection to LaGuardia and the one-seat ride from JFK. Then the fees could be cut, making JFK and LaGuardia more competitive with other airports. As it is, all the maintenance jobs have left New York.
I'd go one better, and turn the World Trade Center and its profits over to the "Shared Asset" group along with PATH and the Bridges and Tunnels, rather than keeping it a "New York" asset. Perhaps fares and tolls would have to rise, but to no more than MTA customers are already paying. The MTA didn't have New York airport to tap during the last recession.
What do you propose? Raising the subway fare to $2.00 and the TBTA toll to $10.00 in the next recession, while PATH stays at $1.00, the Port Authority tolls stay at $4.00, and while airport access doesn't happen because even more "profit" from LaGuardia and JFK is used for the PATH?
I don't object to raising the PATH fare at all. I'm well aware it's a money loser as it is. I rarely drive into the city so the PA and TBTA crossing tolls are not (to me) very significant. If the Holland Tunnel costs $4 or $6, big deal, for the amount of times I use it.
What I object to is statements by Giuliani or however you spell it and his predecessors that the PATH doesn't benefit New York and NY's money shouldn't be subsidizing it. I don't know what the daily ridership stats are for inbound commuters on the PATH but I do know that if you take them away and all the money they spend in NYC shops, restaurants, etc, and the NY City and State income and sales taxes those people pay on their purchases and salaries, you're talking a lot of money. *That's* the benefit to New York City from the PATH. Is the benefit equal to the subsidy? Depends on who you ask, I guess.
-Dave
(Income taxes paid by New Jersey residents).
We examined the flow of tax and spending dollars a few years ago. The non-resident city income tax is very small. The New York State income taxes paid by New Jersey residents, on the other hand, amounted to $800 million per year then, more today. When you go to the bottom line those funds are spent not in New York City, but (along with a chunk of New York City's own state income taxes) in Upstate New York. So perhaps Christie Whitman could say that Jersey isn't draining the city, the rest of New York State is. When you are on the receiving end, it doesn't matter where the money goes, just where it comes from.
Pataki is more measured in his comments. The Port Authority was fair (though not necessarily efficient) until the mid- to late-1980s, when the MTA had to respond to the recession by cutting service and raising fares and tolls while the Port Authority cancelled most of its port and aiport access plans on the New York side (while moving ahead in NJ) to keep fares and tolls low. The unfairness persists to this day.
Correction -- the New York State income taxes paid by both NJ and Connecticut residents (along with, I guess, PA) amounted to $800 million. New Jersey probably accounted for more than half of that.
I have to agree with Mr. Pirmann. When Giuliani complains that Port Authority is inequitable with the unfairness towards NYC he should leave out the bus terminal and PATH. The only items that should be considered for comparison are the airports (as a whole) and the sea ports (as a whole).
[There problem with regional solutions is they tend to redistribute income upward. The arrangement is that the suburbs provide good schools and low taxes for those who "deserve" them, while New York City get to most all of the region's mentally ill and dependent while subsidizing those elsewhere.]
It is *not* true that the suburbs enjoy low taxes. Take a look at the property tax levels in most suburban areas and I guarantee you will be shocked. For instance, take the late 1940s-vintage houses in Levittown, in Nassau County. Depending on condition and the extent of alterations, these houses generally sell from $125,000 to $150,000 - quite modest by suburban standards. Yet taxes on a typical house run about $5,000 per year. There are countless other examples in the NY suburbs.
Getting back to the Port Authority, there's been a ongoing issue over the new East Coast "superport" planned by the two biggest shipping lines now serving the NY-NJ ports, Sea-Land and Maersk. They had invited bids from several cities for the superport, and naturally there's been a race to provide the most incentives. NY/NJ is now competing with Baltimore for the prize (Halifax is the third finalist but is unlikely to be selected). What has seriously jeapordized NY/NJ's chances is Governor Pataki's whining about how New York gets less out of the Port Authority than does New Jersey. Governor Whitman has been forced to come up with state money for the incentive package, which is now in the tens of millions, and Baltimore keeps sweetening its offer. All because New Yorkers still think the world ends at the Hudson River.
(It's not true that the suburbs pay low taxes. $5,000 in property taxes for a modest house).
Ah, but there is no local income tax. Perhaps Nassau should eliminate the county property tax and impose a county income tax instead, raising the same amount of money. Would taxes be lower? No, just different.
Add the city income tax to the property tax, and I pay $7,000 in local taxes on my 17 foot wide rowhouse. But that is because I am the privileged recipient of white welfare and liberal largess. If I lived in dwelling unit of equal value in a 5+ unit building, my property taxes (paid either directly in a coop or condo or indirectly as part of my rent) would be higher. And if we earned the same amount of money, but owned our own business (evil) instead of working for the government (good -- non-profits good too), we would have to pay the self-employment tax, so our income taxes would be higher too.
As for businesses, commercial property taxes are also higher in NYC, and there is a local corporate income tax to boot -- the only one in the U.S. Rudy has only put a dent in this.
Besides, you can't compare Nassau County to anywhere else. Since Giuliani came in and started reforming the city, I think Nassau has taken the prize as the worst run local government in the Northeast. Other areas of the suburbs have lower taxes relative to income. Personally, I think Rudy's next job should be Nassau County Executive. They need him out there.
[(It's not true that the suburbs pay low taxes. $5,000 in property taxes for a modest house).
Ah, but there is no local income tax. Perhaps Nassau should eliminate the county property tax and impose a county income tax instead, raising the same amount of money. Would taxes be lower? No, just different.]
Any county income tax would have to be at an extremely high rate for it to have a burden even remotely similar to the current property taxes. It would have to be like the income tax in Sweden during the 1970s, which had a top bracket of 101% (seriously!) That's hardly likely to happen.
[Besides, you can't compare Nassau County to anywhere else. Since Giuliani came in and started reforming the city, I think Nassau has taken the prize as the worst run local government in the Northeast. Other areas of the suburbs have lower taxes relative to income. Personally, I think Rudy's next job should be Nassau County Executive. They need him out there.]
You're definitely right about Nassau. The county government seems to have an uncanny ability to make a sow's ear out of a silk purse. One problem the county does have, shades of NYC, is a large medical center that is a veritable money pit. But other forms of spending are way out of line - for instance, the county police are very nearly the best-paid police force in the country.
[All because New Yorkers still think the world ends at the Hudson River.]
It doesn't?
On a more serious note, what has been lost in the political debate between NY and NJ is the underlying question of whether it's a good idea for the region to be offering subsidies to the shippers at all. They provide only 1,000 jobs, and that number has been declining consistently. I think there must be a better way to spend the money -- and I also think that because the region's location is such an asset to the shippers, that even if SeaLand and Maersk leave, others are likely to step forward and fill a lot, if not all, of the gap.
[On a more serious note, what has been lost in the political debate between NY and NJ is the underlying question of whether it's a good idea for the region to be offering subsidies to the shippers at all. They provide only 1,000 jobs, and that number has been declining consistently. I think there must be a better way to spend the money -- and I also think that because the region's location is such an asset to the shippers, that even if SeaLand and Maersk leave, others are likely to step forward and fill a lot, if not all, of the gap.]
I've heard higher numbers for the shipping jobs. Even if the 1,000 figure is correct, that might refer only to the longshoremen themselves; there are many other jobs in warehousing, transportation etc. that depend on the seaport. But even adding those in, the seaport is still a relatively minor employer when you look at the metro area as a whole.
What's really at the forefront is the ego factor. Baltimore's incentive offer is so extravagant that it makes no economic sense whatsoever. But city officials are so eager to attract the superport that they're willing to pay just about anything. New York and New Jersey have been somewhat more restrained. Whether that will prove to have been a smart step should be known within a month or so, when SeaLand and Maersk make their decision. FWIW, Philadelphia and Boston, possibly also Norfolk, decided to drop out of the running after deciding that the superport wasn't worth the cost.
Last I heard, SeaLand and Maersk accounted for about 20% of the container volume in the NY/NJ ports. That would be a lot to lose (though even if they build the superport in Baltimore they'll still do some shipping in the region), but probably not so much that other carriers wouldn't be able to make it up. SeaLand, by the way, has been a financial drag on its owner (CSX railroad), and may be up for sale before long. Whether the new owners would be as committed to the superport idea remains to be seen.
BTW there is a lot of hype on the Port issue. The port advocates have released port traffic estimates which seem to assume that we'll be getting 100 percent of our water in bottles from Europe someday. The job estimates are absurd also -- 116,000 jobs equally split between NY and NJ? A nice political estimate. Then there are those who argue that tearing down Sunset Park and building a superport will revive manufacturing. The problem is the counties in NJ which got the port lost manufacturing jobs as fast as the county in NY (Brooklyn) that lost it.
An update on the superport issue, NJ has agreed to toss another $100 million to SeaLand and Maersk in order to convince them to chose NY/NJ over Baltimore. Whether that will be enough is uncertain, especially since Baltimore has in effect written a blank check. Both shippers are still keeping mum on their decision.
I agree that many of the estimates on increased port traffic seem mighty unrealistic. Some increases are sure to occur given changes in shipping routes. Most notably, many shipments from Asia are now coming to East Coast ports via Suez, given the Panama Canal's gradual obsolescene and the higher cost of overland shipment from West Coast ports. But it's probably a stretch of the imagination to assume that port traffic will double in the next decade, as some people at the Port Authority and elsewhere have claimed.
Speaking of the Port Authority, the seaports themselves are not big moneymakers. Last I heard, they more or less break even. That's rather interesting in that the rest of the Port Authority's operations are either huge cash cows (bridges, tunnels, airports, WTC) or money pits (PATH, Port Authority Bus Terminal).
Re: Baltimore's offer.
Isn't the city, folks. Baltimore City can't find the money to pave more than one main route every three years, water mains are in the middle of a 30 year plan to clean and reline, and our local property taxes are the highest in the entire state - $5.95 per $100 of assessment. And there is a proposal on the table to cut trash collection to once a week. (Twice a week now, with weekly recycling) Oh, Joy!!
The $ for the port is coming from Parris Glendenning and the General Assembly. (AKA the State of Maryland)
The fact that the state of Maryland has ended up funding Baltimore's stadia and might fund its port is one reason why some politically active New Yorkers admire it so. If we could just raise taxes and cut services to Baltimore's level, we could drive out all those corporations and businesses, and then the rest of the state and country would "have to" support us! We all go on welfare and make the subway free!
The problem is, that when New York's economy goes down, instead of pumping in money to save it the rest of the state gives it an extra kick to try to destroy it. Glendenning is the world's champion of getting federal money for Maryland, and state money for Baltimore, but it has to come from somewhere. New Yorkers should wake up and realize that they are the people who pay.
[The fact that the state of Maryland has ended up funding Baltimore's stadia and might fund its port is one reason why some politically active New Yorkers admire it so. If we could just raise taxes and cut services to Baltimore's level, we could drive out all those corporations and businesses, and then the rest of the state and country would "have to" support us! We all go on welfare and make the subway free!
The problem is, that when New York's economy goes down, instead of pumping in money to save it the rest of the state gives it an extra kick to try to destroy it. Glendenning is the world's champion of getting federal money for Maryland, and state money for Baltimore, but it has to come from somewhere. New Yorkers should wake up and realize that they are the people who pay.]
I don't see that Baltimore and Maryland are doing anything wrong. Far from it. They've learned that thinking on a regional level is the way to go, and consequently are willing to have city-state cooperation. You can see the results in the new stadiums and possibly soon in the new superport. New Yorkers just don't seem able to get the point. NYC and NYS persist in this antagonistic relationship and seldom appear to cooperate on anything. In a way that's strange, as NYC is far more vital to the NYS economy than Baltimore is to Maryland's.
Ever since it took over the Hudson & Manhattan in 1962, the Port Authority has been reluctant to get involved with any expansion of rail service. Thus while an extension of PATH to Newark Airport would have had merit, the PA prefers that NJ Transit handle service to the airport.
The PA is building the Air Train from JFK not because it is a good plan, but because the agency has access to the airline ticket tax. A one-seat ride to Manhattan by LIRR or subway would probably require funding by both the MTA and PA, but the PA would have to use its own money rather than depending on the ticket fees.
BUT once the link to LIRRs' Jamaica station exists the Port might want to just keep the line around the airport and to the long term parking lot. The MTA/LIRR could then take over the Van Wyke line & connect it to the main at Jamaica for thru service to LaGuardia or Manhattan or both ? They might even have that as a plan ... why would the PORT want to run up the Van Wyke to Jamaica ?
Mr t__:^)
Federal regulations require that the airline tax money be used for airport related projects only, not projects that also have a general transportation use. The Air Train as now proposed seems to fit that standard, although the airlines themselves have challenged it at times. If the MTA were to get involved in running through trains along the Air Train route, everybody would be in a murky legal area that might not stand up to Federal scrutiny. Maybe there is some kind of statute of limitations about the use of the airline tax that will allow future through-running.
Actually, the PA has agreed in principle to plan for future through-running. However, it is not clear that they are actually designing the curves and grades on the Air Train to handle any existing MTA equipment.
It is ridiculous! We should tell those blasted NIMBY cowards and their leader this Morton Povman guy to get the hell out of Queens if they don't want rail service to JFK and La Guardia. And what the hell is Povman complaining about the Howard Beach AirTrain service for? Does it go through residential areas. The Jamaica AirTrain will run over the Van Wyck. How does that harm people's homes any more than the existing expressway already does? I think this Povman guy has an enormous ego and is doing whatever it takes to get his name in the paper, even if it means derailing a project that can really help take pressure off the Van Wyck to JFK. Or maybe somebody's paying this councilman to be against AirTrain.
I'd rather see a one-seat subway or LIRR ride to JFK myself, but this is a start. There's no reason why anyone should be against AirTrain! Tell Councilman Povman that it's time for him to get in his car and retire to Florida! He and his regressive politics been in the city council for too damn long! That has to end now! New York has to remain competitive and without strong airport access that won't happen.
Who is this guy that all it takes is for his one no vote to derail everything?
What he said.
Use the Old LIRR Rockaway branch right of way. At Liberty junction, the TA would retain the outside two tracks. The inner two would be for this airport train. At Howard beach the middle tracks would go up and over the locals toward the airport.
The other end could either go to Pennn Station, or tie in with the IND at Queens Blvd.
They could also connect with the LIRR Atlantic Ave. line in Woodhaven to go west to Flatbush Ave. and east to Jamaica and Long Island.
I heard a rumor that the city is considering funding a flyover so the line could branch off toward Penn Station from the Van Wyck, in addition to going to Jamaica -- if it's built.
Yes, that would require the installation of one crossover switch and the attendant signalling modifications. While they're at it, they should re-open the Woodhaven LIRR station, at least for weekday service.
Wayne
I say more power to him! Pooh to this useless train to the train to the train to the plane. The only rational solution to this dilemma is to reuse the Rockaway Branch of the LIRR. I thought about that as I went by White Pot Junction today.
Wayne
(Pooh to this useless train -- use the Rockaway Branch).
The councilman seeking to shut down the Van Wyck Branch represents the area that a Rockaway Branch train would go through. His reason for opposing -- if we start building, his five angry homeowners might be next! So let's build nothing! Let's join and stop the train to LaGuardia also!
Moreover, the Jamaica option would serve Long Island, whose 3 million people have more political clout than the city's 8 million. They may never use the connection from Jamaica, but they want it. And we ain't getting nothing unless they get it.
It's a populist proposition. Unless we can build something underground, with no above ground disturbance, for $50 million, we are against it! There is always a better plan. As I said, the Mayor has allegedly approved city funds for a flyover so a train up the Van Wyck could both go to Jamaica and to Penn Station (and Grand Central).
This plan is the only way we get anything. No one is supporting the Rockaway plan, except as a way of opposing the Van Wyck Plan. Propose a Van Wyck Plan you'll smoke out a larger, more powerful group of opponents. I'm putting my money on nothing getting built.
I have to agree with Larry again ... killing the Van Wyke route will just kill the whole thing (irrespective of the route to Whitepot Junction being better).
This Councilman must be a NIMBY, i.e. "(the Van Wyke route would be) dsetructive to the interest of the city" What a narrow minded/short sighted attidude !
Mr t__:^)
Hi, again; I have been away; Does anyone have any info as to what happens on Sat. 5/1, when the train service is halted at Essex St. and at Marcy Ave as far as shuttle service is concerned? Will there be shuttles to N7th & to Delancey from the Plaza, as in past weekends? Or will the regular B-39s be left to handle the crush loads?
Hi again: I should add that the B39W shuttles do not begin until 5/2/99. Who handles the crush on 5/1?
Check out the M.T.A. website.They give a detailed explanation.
..but in case you can't check the MTA website...
--Normal service ends at 2 AM on 5/1/99.
--From that point, until 2 AM Monday, both J and M trains will terminate at Myrtle Avenue. A shuttle will run between Myrtle and Hewes Streets. The will give the MTA-NYCT time to built the crossover needed to get people to the temporary platform built over the center tracks at Marcy.
--At 2 AM Monday, the detour service will begin (J to Myrtle, M to Marcy at all times).
The lower Manhattan service should begin immediately on Saturday morning, unless they choose to delay it until Monday (that's not very clear on the site).
BTW: if you go to the MTA site, note that the M is listed as running in THREE sections (Met-Marcy, lower Manhattan shuttles, rush hour deadheads between Manhattan and Bay Parkway).
Of course, because the MTA is still developing new ways to post schedule information, don't expect to see the new schedules on the website...
Michael
They have not mentioned A and C weekend service though. They mentioned L service.
I don't know if the Essex to Chambers shuttle service will or will not operate on Sat. 5/1, but it will surely operate on Sun. 5/2, because the new pick goes into effect which has picked jobs covering that service. Wayne may be unhappy about this one: I have been told that some R40 slants will be pulled off the L so as to have all five 4 car sets of M trains assigned to operate between Metropoitan & Marcy be consisted of R40 slants! Hopefully, they will be there Friday nite so I can operate them on my last nite on the M between Met & Bway Myrtle. To the best of my knowledge, no cars assigned to the Eastern division either before or after the big car swap which will occur after the PM rush Friday have Marcy Ave. as a terminal on their rollsigns.
Slants on the M??? I truly believe you, but this I just gotta see! A photo opportunity awaits, I do believe...
Are all 48 cars going over or just some of them?
Wayne
I don't know. All the M will need is 20 cars for full service. I would expect the others to stay on the L, but we won't have to wait too long till we find out!
Why don't they send them to the M on the other side of the Bridge, where they will be with the rest of the 40's in Coney Island?
They should have those R-40s down there on the Southern Division...easier to maintain them all in one spot. Wow, the M is going to have Slants again. I remember seeing them there on my way to high school in the morning, back in 1992 and early '93. I wonder why they took them off the M line. Well, now they're back. Sounds good to me.
Dear friends, can someone please supply the times of: last "J" to/from Broad (or Chambers) on Sat. 5/1/99. Also, the first "M" to Marcy on that day. Thanks loads.
Dont know exactly, but the shutdown will be at about 2 am. M's will not go to Marcy until after 2 am Monday morning. Till then, they will terminate at Myrtle, with a shuttle to Hewes, as signals are cut over, etc.
I'm thinking also that, based on Bill's earlier comments, a similar signal cut is needed on the Manhattan side to turn Delancey Street into a (temporary) terminus. Less work is needed there than at Marcy, so you can start running the shuttle Sunday morning (at least according to the pick).
At Marcy, besides cutting signals, you also need to build a walkway crossing over what are currently live tracks. I presume nothing of the sort is needed at Delancey.
(Bill, Wayne, Erik, subwaybuff, anyone else: please correct or add info here as necessary. Thanks!)
Michael
In order for a train to turn at Essex St. and return toward Broad St., leaving the Bowery the motorman would have to be crossed over to the middle track, change ends and get crossed over again and arrive at the Bowery going back to Broad St.
Because the N line management doesn't like the slants. The original plan was to send ENY slant 40's to Coney Island. But the N line management hit the ceiling when they heard they would get more slants. Guess those guys aren't railfans.
Yeah, they must like those R-68s for whatever reason. Aren't there some R-32s still plying the N line? I will forever associate those cars with that line. It all goes back to July 21, 1965, when I rode the subway for the very first time. That N train of shiny new R-32s with the green "57th St." signs made a lasting impression on me. I know I've said this before ad nauseum, so please forgive me.
Quite a few R32s on the "N", don't know the exact current number. Anyway, what is the "N" management beefing about - they HAVE Slants already. Hmmm, maybe that's why I saw one on the "B" Saturday.
Wherever these wonderful subway cars go, I will be sure to follow.
Wayne
They don't want any more than what they already have.
I don't blame you. Do you find yourself associating a particular series of cars with a specific route, other than the obvious ones? By obvious, I mean the R-10s on the A, R-36s on the 7, Triplexes on the Brighton, that sort of thing. I tend to link the slant R-40s with the E and F, since they began their illustrious careers on those two lines. Ditto for the R-38s.
As for the R-16s, the 15/QJ/J comes to mind immediately.
I tend to associate the R-40 Slants with the B line. Until 1997 that always seemed to be the line I saw them on. Seeing (and then riding them) as M, N, or Q trains in the 90s was surprising. But I'm getting used to R-68As on the B and Slants on the Q. I think the Slants are more suited for the Q. Wow, N line management doesn't like the Slants, huh? Maybe they'll stay on the M permanently once the WillyB reopens.
It will take some time getting used to R-62As on the 7.
You're right about the 7. The R-36s hold the unofficial record for the longest continuous exclusive service on the same line, surpassing the R-10s on the A. It felt strange to see the R-10s anywhere else, just as it will feel strange to see the R-36s, assuming they will be kept, on any line other than the 7. I know, over the years some of the WF cars have been seen on the mainlines, either in a solid train or intermixed with other cars. Life goes on.
I associate the R16s with the former "EE" line. R46s are associated with the "F". I can't picture an R38 without seeing its "A" sign, although they run on the "C" as well. R27's and R30's call to mind the "QJ", and September 19, 1968. R7s and R9s recall the "KK"; R6s belong to the "E" and R4s belong to the "D".
The Slants - I remember them well on the "F" (April 7,1969 looking out the back window of - you guessed it - 4246!) but these days, I think of the "Q".
Wayne
Well the Slants don't have to run on the N line. They can run the rush-hour M service. Maybe a few more can be put on the Q if needed (does any other type of car other than the R-40 run on the Q now?)
Nope just R-40s on the Q, And on the weekends the B line!
Trevor
I wouldn't be suprised to find slants on the Bay Pkwy to Chambers St. M; the Essex St. shuttle; and the Q, while the borrowed ENY cars go to the N. Just my opinion. No matter what happens, get those cameras ready!
Marcy Av decals will be put on the slant-40's in the Eastern Division, which is why they will all be on the M. (thus it will be easy to note which cars have the decals).
The Nassau Shuttle will not operate on 5/1 or 5/2, to allow track, signal and station work at Essex to turn it into a terminal. Similarly, the M will only run Met-Myrtle all weekend, with a shuttle Myrtle to Hewes, as the Marcy station is converted.
There i one of those new Amtraks double ended electric locomotives sitting in Philadelphia Penn Coach yard. They are strange looking but Im sure they will grow on us all.
I said the same thing about those new LIRR diesels, but once I saw them a few times up close, they look kind of pleasing to the eye, especially since they are clean right now!
I have a photo of a dirty one somewhere here. Think the old stuff looks bad dirty, imagine dark grime on stainless. My other gripe is the ridgy sides and the yellow/blue paint scheme :/
I caught a glimpse of the new electric early last week and it's still there as of yesterday. It's in a spot in the yard in which it's almost impossible to get a photo of it - I wonder if that's intentional? It does look kind of grungy.
If you stand on the Septa R-7 platform you can maybe get a picture although I dont know how good,or you can go down in the parking lot that over looks the yard.
Does anyone have news?? How are things going in Toronto? Are they on strike?
[Does anyone have news?? How are things going in Toronto? Are they on strike?]
The strike was settled on Thursday. The TTC was able to operate the PM rush hour, or that was my understanding.
Try to get news on the "Toronto Star" (newspaper) website.
Jim K.
Chicago
the URL for the Toronto Star is:
www.thestar.com
Find the SEARCH box on the front page and enter TTC
Lots of ink (bytes, in our case) on the strike and the events that lead up to it.
The strike lasted two days (Monday and Tuesday). By Tuesday night the provincial Premier had recalled the legislature and with the help of the liberals and NDP managed to pass legislation to put an end to the strike by brining in an arbitrator. The trains, streetcars and buses were rolling again by about 8:00 am Wednesday morning with full service back by the evening rush hour.
But I suspect we're not out of the woods yet. The province last year stopped all funding for public transport (a completely irresponsible move by any level of government) and the city must pay any shortfall. The TTC currently gets about 81% of its revenue from fares - by far the highest in North America. But our mayor is determined not to raise property taxes during his 3-year mandate so there's no money unless a fare increase of at least 10c occurs. But the TTC on Friday said no to a fare increase fearing loss of ridership. So the ball's in the city's court. With our colourful mayor, he'll likely do some creative manoeuvres and try to get the province to throw some bucks our way - it is, afterall, a provincial election year and the conservatives are trailing in the polls!
Again this year, Boston's MBTA offered FREE RIDES to ALL on all services (commuter rail, subway, bus, etc.) in honor of Earth Day.
I guess it would be too much to ask for the NCYTA to do that!
I remember when I was in Boston this time in 1997, and almost shocked by the free rides!
I went up to a turnstile, and seeing that the token slot was taped over, moved to another, until I discovered that they were all taped over and the turnstiles were unlocked. I gotta tell you -- it felt great to walk right through an unlocked turnstile!
Unlike the time a few months ago at Columbus Circle when I realized a split-second too late (just after I dropped my token in) that the very turnstile I was walking through was stuck unlocked!
The TA did this in 1994, I think, they made 42st a transitway, had some alternative fuel and experimental buses set up by GCT, and service on all buses on 42st was free, including the M104. Once the bus left 42st, the fare was charged again.
-Hank
[Again this year, Boston's MBTA offered FREE RIDES to ALL on all services (commuter rail, subway, bus, etc.) in honor of Earth Day.]
Todd, how many years has this been going on?
I know it would never happen here in Chicago, at least in my lifetime.
The only thing CTA does is the "penny fare" on New Years Eve offered from 8 PM to 4 AM.
A question I would have is, does the 'T' ever say how much this gesture costs them in revenue? However, it really isn't a "free" day for pass holders.
Jim K.
Chicago
The "T" does this on both Earth Day and on New Years Eve. It's definitly a nice gesture for the community....considering how many trains (especially on the green line) get so crowded! In a way, the T is giving something back for all the commuter headaches. -Nick
The TTC in Toronto used to have free rides on New Year's Eve, paid for by one of the distillers. Seemed like a fair (fare) trade! But that was way back in the 70s and early 80s and hasn't happened since. It's too bad - we're constantly reminded not to drink and drive but on the one night most people overdo it, no one wants to make it easier to take transit.
Chicgo used to have free fares on New Year's Eve. I remember noticing that the bus operator seemed to be padding the numbers quite a bit, repeatedly hitting the button on the farebox far more than once per passenger.
Then there's DC where the trains stop at midnight ON NEW YEARS EVE. Forgive me for mentioning this at every opportunity, but it still steams me. (I moved out of DC almost 3 years ago).
The T has been giving free rides on Earth Day (or the Saturday nearest) for many years -- though I'm not sure how many. Given the very heavy subsity of MBTA services by the 70+ cities and towns served, it probably doesn't cost them a whole lot for the this and the other time (New Year's eve) they do it.
As a pass holder, it didn't benefit me too much. But next year if I am free I will take advantage of it by riding the commuter rail lines "outside" my zone... I have a Zone 2 pass, and the zones go all the way to 9!
Today SEPTA ran excellent sevice on the Market-Frakford line because of the Mumia Abdul Jamal Rally and I think SEPTA performed almost Flawlessly With trains scheduled for every 6 minutes but I think itwas actually closer to about 4-5 minutes. Every train I saw was crowded all 6 cars. They even had some ALMOND JOYS outin service too. GOOD. I would have to say Septa at least fo today deserves an A in my opinion.Im actuallly thinig of having a fantrip on the ALMOND JOYS sometime in july or August Before they all go to the RAPIDTRANSIT Car heaven in the sky is anyone intersted.
[Today SEPTA ran excellent sevice on the Market-Frakford line because of the Mumia Abdul Jamal Rally and I think SEPTA performed almost Flawlessly With trains scheduled for every 6 minutes but I think itwas actually closer to about 4-5 minutes. Every train I saw was crowded all 6 cars.]
They had that many people at the rally? I bet Ed Asner and Mike Farrell weren't riding SEPTA!
Jim K.
Chicago
The local media estimated between 8,000 and 10,000 folks showed for the "mass" rally. At least they couldn't blame the weather...
Nah, they probably came in chauffer-driven limos in true Hollywood style!
cool! After all, the point IS service , no?
Two lines: and
Stations:
72St/West End Av:,,,
66St/West End Av
57St/11Av
50St/11Av
42St/11Av
34St-Javits Ctr/11Av: **
28St/11Av
23St/11Av
14St/West St**:
Christopher St/West St
Varick St/Houston St: ,
Bway-Lafayette/Houston St**:,,,
2Av/Houston St**:,,(2Av line)
Columbia St-FDR Dr/Houston St***
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bedford Av/Grand St**
S.4St-Union Av**:
Graham Av/Meserole St
Flushing Av/Humboldt St
Bway-Myrtle Av**:,,
Dekalb Av/Stuyvesant Av
Gates Av/ Stuyvesant Av
Halsey St/Stuyvesant Av
Fulton St/Utica Av**:,
Bergen St/Utica Av
Eastern Pkwy-St.John's Pl/Utica Av**:,,
Empire Blvd-Remsen Av/Utica Av
Winthrop St-Clarkson Av/Utica Av
Church Av/Utica Av
Ave.D/Utica Av
Kings Hwy-Ave.H/Utica Av**
Flatlands Av-Ave.K/Utica Av
Ave.N/Utica Av
Fillmore Av/Utica Av**
From here line splits into two:
Kings Plz-Ave.U/Flatbush Av
Utica Av/11Av local
---------- ------------ --------------
The H makes following stops:
E.36St/Ave.S
Gerritsen Av/Ave.S
Ave.U-Gravesend Neck Rd/Nostrand Av***
Ave.Y/Nostrand Av
Shore Pkwy-Emmons Av/Nostrand Av
Manhattan Beach-Kingsboro Community College
Utica Av/11Av express
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Utica/11Av Express
72St,Manhattan---Manhattan Bch, Bklyn
Rush hours:Peak direction only. Every third train operates express between Manhattan Bch and Fillmore Av. Bypasss Columbia St.
Weekends: Express to S.4St, local stops to 72St
Late Nights: Local stops. Connect with at Fillmore Av.
Utica/11Av Local
34St-Javits Ctr,Manhattan---Kings Plaza, Brooklyn
Weekdays:(5am-11pm) Local stops
Saturdays:(8am-10pm) S.4St-Kings Plz, Bklyn
Sundays: (11am-7pm) " " "
Connect with local at Fillmore Av.
*Extended to Javits Ctr on weekends for special events.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Switches and Interlockings:
At terminals, Fillmore Av, Kings Hwy, Fulton St, Bway-Myrtle Av, S.4St, Varick St, 14St, 34St
Trackage: 4 tracks between 72St and Bway-Lafayette
2 " " 2Av and Bedford Av
4 " " S.4St and Kings Plaza*
3 " " Fillmore Av and Manhattan Bch(H)**
*After S.4St, there are two seperate tunnels between S.4St and Bway-Myrtle Av. After Bway-Myrtle, there two levels of tracks: express on bottom and local on top. 4 track configuration at Fulton St, then resume to the two level configuration. At Eastern Pkwy, there are two seperate stations express on bottom and local on top. Regain 4 track local/express configuration after Eastern Pkwy.
**After Fillmore, express tracks lower while local flyover on top and resume to Kings Plaza. The station will be high due to this configuration and switches,interlockings.(Fillmore Junction) Tracks will also lead to the main yard next to Flatbush Depot.
Yards: Main one at Fillmore Junction, Storage yard at Kings Plaza. During non peak hours, middle track between Fillmore and Manhattan BCh will be used for storage. At Fulton St a track would lead to and trains. After Varick St there would be a pair of tracks that lead to West st yard.
Island Platforms:
72,42,34,14, Bway-Lafayette, 2Av, S.4St, Bway-Myrtle, Fulton, Eastern Pkwy(both levels), Kings Hwy, Fillmore Av, Kings Plz(K), Ave.U, Manhattan Bch(H).
IND Colors:
72St-34St:Red
28St-2Av:Various colors
Columbia St-S.4St:Green
Graham Av--Bway-Myrtle:Purple
Dekalb Av-Bergen St:Maroon
Eastern Pkwy-Winthrop St:Blue
Church Av-Kings Hwy:Orange
Cars: R110B (400 cars)
Areas served: Kingsboro Community College, Manhattan Bch, Sheepshead Bay, Marine Park, Kings Plaza, Flatlands, E.Flatbush, Crown Hghts, Bed-Stuy, Williamsburg, Lower East Side, Greenwich Village, West Side, Javits Ctr, Car Dealerships, Lincoln Ctr.
Please ignore my last post!!!!!!! I needed it for printing. I do not want to hear any thing more about bullets. Just needed to print something. IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE!!!!!!!!!!
Perhaps instead of doing away with bullets, when you feel the need to use bullets make a note of it in the subject section of your post for example (BULLETS INCLUDED). By the way I like the bullets but my system is fairly quick and downloads with ease.
In the NY Post Sunday April, page 6, is an article about the city and MTA are close to an agreement on a plan to let welfare recipients work 20 hours a week cleaning up litter in subway stations.
As always after the good folks of Subtalk read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I forgot to put the day in. The article is from April 25 NY Post.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd
I'm all in favor of asking welfare recipients to work in exchange for their help. If they are human beings, we have obligations to them, and they have obligations to use. Unfortunately, my union would rather cut them off and let them starve, or demand that everyone get paid for zero work (in which case we'll all starve), than allow those on welfare to work.
And what work can they do, with limited skills and for an uncertain duration? Cleaning. So I am all in favor. (In Brazil they have the unemployed sort garbage for recycling as a socially useful make-work project; maybe we can do that here).
And I don't buy that bull that they should be paid $20.00 per hour. In 1965, people on welfare in New York became much better off than those earning the minimum wage. By 1980, only one third of the heads of households on welfare in NYC had been born here -- the rest moved in. In a real job, someone voluntarily hires you because the work you do is worth as much or more than what you are paid. Welfare is what you get when no one is willing to hire you by choice. Your work isn't worth nothing, but it is worth less than you get. Let people at least do what they can.
1) Everyone should be entitled to a minimum (Republican Object)
2) That minimum should be less than what people who pay their own way get (Liberals, who look down on anyone who hasn't been to college, object).
3) Everyone should do something in return (pols, who contribute nothing, are made nervous by that idea).
[I'm all in favor of asking welfare recipients to work in exchange for their help. If they are human beings, we have obligations to them, and they have obligations to use. Unfortunately, my union would rather cut them off and let them starve, or demand that everyone get paid for zero work (in which case we'll all starve), than allow those on welfare to work.]
Could this be the same union that was violently opposed to the "From Welfare to Work" Program a few years back?
I'm sure the unions at representing the TA workers will NOT be happy about the above idea unless the union leadership is "getting something out of it".
This idea, while supported by me, would open up a large can of worms.
Jim K.
Chicago
(What union is fighting workfare). AFSME, the biggest public employee union of them all. It is the national umbrella over DC37 in New York.
In case you haven't followed it, numerous officials of DC37 are off to jail after living high on the hog with my outrageously high dues. So AFSME came in and took over the union, before people starting asking too many questions about what they do with all the dues money forwarded on to them.
Rather than knocking one-third off the dues, the national is using its new power over its New York's affiliate to make NYC the place to grind all its national axes. Among them opposition to workfare. My dues (or should I say taxes since I have not option but to pay them) at work.
The usual Quid Pro Quo for the TWU is that management pays the "union dues" for the welfare recipients who still derive no benifits from the union. Taxation without representation AFL-CIO style.
Over the long haul, TWU probably feels that less dues paying TA car cleaners will be employed, so they want to make up that dues shortfall.
Back in 1986, many supervisors were promoted to Level II supervisors, especially in Car Equipment, Track and Infrastructure. As part of the deal, we were taken out of the SSSA (Subway & Surface Supervisor's Association). The union went to court to block the promotions and loss of membership until the TA agreed to make up the lost revenue of our dues. Suddenly, we were no longer missed.
My prediction is that this and similar workfare programs will not last too long. NYC's political climate is simply too opposed to any sort of welfare reform to allow this to continue. It's not the unions who'll stop the program, it's the people on the Upper West Side, who (as I've noted before) are hard at work even now, trying to find ways to stop workfare and other types of welfare reform. Do not underestimate their ability to get things accomplished.
Interesting aside: one of the common claims is that welfare reform is racist, by throwing a disproportionate number of minorities off of welfare. In fact, there's evidence that it's having the exact opposite effect - whites are the main victims. Since 1996, when welfare rules first became more restrictive, the proportion of whites on welfare has fallen in almost all states (NY included). Welfare rolls are becoming more heavily minority. Unless there's some other explanation I don't know about, it looks as if whites are being tossed off the rolls in large numbers while minorities remain eligible. I'll bet the Upper West Siders would be shocked by these statistics.
There's that 'R' word again !!
LEAVE RACE THE HELL OUT OF THE DISCUSSION! Please, enough is enough.
If the welfare recipients want to clean the trains, let them.
Wayne
Wayne, Cyber-screaming is not the answer and please don't blame Peter for what society has created. After all, it was the limousine liberals who said that it was an act of racism to force people to work for their welfare checks. Unfortunately the recipients of welfare, be they white or black, yellow or green , for the most part are resisting having to "sing for their supper". They fail to see the 'fast-track' opportunity to becoming a transit employee. Yhen again, they may just not want it. With regard to the WEPS in transit, it was the liberals that made it a racial issue.
Sorry I blew my cork there, Steve; I am just so tired of all of this.
Maybe I should just steer clear of posts that I think might contain this kind of thing and stick to what I do best. True though it might all be, it just gets me madder and madder, especially in this current climate.
Thanks for letting me share,
Wayne
I feel the welfare crowd should be made to work -- no more free rides. They've got to join the rest of us in being productive members of society. My only fear is that at some point the city will want to replace a heck of alot of city workers with these weps and not just the obvious jobs. If they are just kept at the Parks/cleaning and/or entry-level type jobs, I have no problem. But I see a future where the wages of more technically trained city workers will be threatened by the employment of WEPS in more and more 'traditionally white-collar' positions. That's when it gets scary.
Just keep in mind that this WEP business could potentially be a threat to ALL city-workers wages (driving them down) and hard-fought benefits.
That's all folks. Doug aka BMTman
(Threats to all city workers). First of all, welfare recipients are people no private business was willing to hire at the minimum wage voluntarily. Only public employees who also fall into that category need to fear for their jobs.
Second, the reason more whites have come off welfare is because they tended to live in areas (ie. suburbs) where there were plenty of jobs, and just not take them. Minority welfare recipients tend to be concentrated in cities where there are no jobs, at least for those at the bottom end of the skill ladder.
It's ridiculous to think an extra 600,000 unskilled New Yorkers will be employed 2 1/2 years from now, unless we are planning a mass relocation plan to the suburbs (don't think that will help Rudy's Senate Campaign). Regardless of politcal position, everyone now understands that businesses do not want to locate in areas with concentrations of poor people, especially minority poor people. Despite a national welfare shortage, you don't find people wandering through housing projects begging people to take jobs.
In areas where there are not jobs and there are many white welfare recipiants (ie. Appalacian Kentucky) welfare is not dropping very fast. You know what they are doing? Giving them a couple of thousand dollars to move to Ohio! This was in the Wall Street Journal a couple of weeks ago. This is what I worry about. We can afford our own poor, but not everyone elses (again).
All in all, the best option is to keep giving people some income, but have them work for it so the isolation from work doesn't pass on from one generation to the next. That's workfare. It took 35 years to get into this mess, and it will take 35 years to get out.
Finally, don't think the "Upper West Side Liberals" are such a powerful group. They are pretty much gone. The only way one of them will ever become Mayor again is if Mark Green inherits the job.
[In areas where there are not jobs and there are many white welfare recipiants (ie. Appalacian Kentucky) welfare is not dropping very fast. You know what they are doing? Giving them a couple of thousand dollars to move to Ohio! This was in the Wall Street Journal a couple of weeks ago. This is what I worry about. We can afford our own poor, but not everyone elses (again).]
I read that article too, and it made me think of something. You're correct in saying that New York cannot handle a large influx of paid-to-move poor from elsewhere in the country. Actually, that's happened already on a _de facto_ basis thanks to the state's and city's traditionally high welfare benefits. My idea is to do this *in reverse* - pay New York's welfare reciepient to move elsewhere in the country. Crazy idea? Maybe. But we've all heard about how employers in Minneapolis/Phoenix/Nashville/Seattle/you name the city are desparate for workers. So pay New Yorkers to move. While the plan might be politically controversial, there are two things to keep in mind: (1) the residents of Minneapolis/Phoenix etc. have no right to complain, what with all their whining about labor shortages; and (2) the residents of Minneapolis/Phoenix etc. already hate New York, so there's nothing to lose!
[Finally, don't think the "Upper West Side Liberals" are such a powerful group. They are pretty much gone. The only way one of them will ever become Mayor again is if Mark Green inherits the job.]
They still have control of the Times.
(Pay them to go away).
In addition to being nasty, the rest of the country would simply not permit it. Moreover, forget Minneapolis, if houses were allowed to be subdivided, the poor could move to Nassau, Fairfield, Westchester, suburban Jersey, and other areas with unemployment rates below four percent. But this is my main concern as the cutoff of federal money draws near. New York has always been forced to cover most of its welfare costs itself, but in other places the cost has been 70-90 percent federal. What are they going to do? That's why I call the 1996 welfare reform plan "busfare." I suspect a lot of Republican congressmen secretly bought stock in Greyhound after passing the law.
(Traditional liberals still have control of the Times).
Perhaps you missed all the Times articles and editorials demanding an end to residential rent regulation a few years ago. For the traditional West Side liberal, that is the ONLY real issue. The rest is just posturing.
I think having welfare recipients cleaning the subways and stations is a great idea. Of course they can't do anything that requires real expertise (ie. getting down on the tracks). But what they can do, they should do.
[(Traditional liberals still have control of the Times).
Perhaps you missed all the Times articles and editorials demanding an end to residential rent regulation a few years ago. For the traditional West Side liberal, that is the ONLY real issue. The rest is just posturing.]
I can see why rent regulation is all that really counts for the prototypical Upper West Side Limousine Liberal (UWSLL). If the cops shoot a criminal in Harlem, if the city proposes closing an underused public hospital in the South Bronx, if Uncle Sam cuts spending for a homeless shelter in Bushwick, or (OT transit) NYCT proposes reducing late-night subway service, the UWSLLs will indeed get into the posturing act. Witness the staged "arrests" at the Diallo protests (Cop to protestor: Pardon me, Madame, we need to take you into custody for a few minutes while the news cameras roll. Can I get you a Perrier?) But there's no passion behind these protests as daily lifestyles won't be affected (does the typcial UWSLL even know where Bushwick is?? Has he or she ever ridden a (gasp!) subway??) Now, just tell our typcial UWSLL that he or she will no longer be able to pay $700 per month for a 3,000 square-foot apartment in a prewar doorman building on West End Avenue, and the [deleted] will hit the fan!
I _HATE_ to act like a net-cop, but...
In light of recent discussions, perhaps we should consider it bad Subtalk nettiquette (sp?) to go this far afield, particularly into discussions of political issues that get people worked up...
[Not responding to Peter's post in particular, nor claiming that I have not strayed from the issues of subways plenty of times myself...]
While travelling the 6th Avenue Line yesterday, a "B" train of classic Slant R40s made its appearance. This train must be designated for regular "B" service, as the signs between the cars also read "B", not "N" or "Q".
The consist was as follows: 4242-4243, 4252-4253, 4152-4153, 4318-4319, and 4246-4247.
Maybe there are a few others floating around out there. It was good to see them on the "B" again. Watching from the RF window on the West End line is one of my "life's little pleasures".
We also had an "A", lead motor #3994, who inched just above 45MPH on the CPW Express Run under a full green yesterday. THAT was neat.
I also got an education from Peg about "homeballs". Interesting stuff...
AND 207th Street has a tile band, after all these years! Sort of a light maroon with a very light grey border.
Wayne
That great I'm going to have to ride the B Line next Weekend.
Just so no one get mixed up I'm Dave Jr.
Thanks for the Info. Wayne
Welcome aboard!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At what point did that A train reach 45 mph? If it was running northbound, I would speculate 81st St, which is where the R-10s used to be at full speed. When I rode the R-38s last fall, the best they could get up to was 37-38 mph, and I traveled on that stretch more than once.
This southbound R38 "A" train, #3994 the lead motor, got to 45+ between 103rd and 96th Street and held it there for a bit until the GT's nailed him down around 81st. From there, he was no more than 30. Fun ride! He also bore down hard coming into 42nd Street, just like the R10s used to do. We also had #4103 from 34th to Chambers (front RF window) and coming back uptown we got #4035 from Chambers to 14th Street, in the "reverse railfan window", so we could see where we'd been. They have a mess there at 14th and 8th; a real work in progress. One track of the "L" station was closed off and they were chipping away at the ceiling with some kind of air hammer. There's a glimpse of the new tile there too.
Wayne
I know that stretch along CPW. I was on a southbound A train of R-38s a couple of years ago, and it got up to around that same speed at 103rd St. and kept it up until 81st. So you can still get a rush with the R-38s from time to time, even though it's still not the same as it was with the R-10s.
I wonder how the R-1/9s used to do. Probably in the G-Ab above middle C range all the way down to 59th St.
Hmmmm...if the Slant R-40s are running on the B again, do you think they might also show up on the D one of these days? I once rode an train of R-40s on the D and would like to see them come back there. Are those 10 cars actually meant for the B train, because I've seen them as both N and Q trains before.
When did you see a D train of slant R-40s? I brought that question up a while ago and one of our regulars confirmed that, yes, the slants did run on the D at one time. It's just that I never saw them there. I do remember riding the slant R-40s on the A during the late 70s and, man, did they move.
Slant 40's ran on the D in the early 80's. I remember when I was young in summer camp. We used to go to Brighton Bch. The D had Slant 40's and R32's. It was during time of skip stop service between D/Q trains.
I remember took the SlantR40 ran on the d line and at that time it was dirty,little light,bad smell,graffie and A/C was not working. Boy what a ride and i couldn't breathe because of hot air and no A/C.
I believe back then that only 100 of the 300 Slant R-40's had air conditioning. It sounds like you got one of them that didn't. Not that there was any guaranty back then that the a/c was working in the 100 that had it!
Most of the time the A/C was working on the R40A's. Coming home from Lexington/53rd to 179th Street on the "F" back in '73 and '74, I would be on the lookout for "> 4349", the mark of the A/C Slant R40. A non-A/C Slant was NOT the place you'd want to be in the summertime. Ditto for the R6's that were still prowling around back then. An R44 was a treat as well.
Wayne
If you did get a train of R-6s, you'd hope the ceiling fans were running. I remember boarding an F train of R-1/9s once at 34th St. on a summer day, possibly August 9, 1967, and the fans were whirling away. We were trying to get to the Lexington Ave. line and got thrown for a loop, as there was no transfer at Lexington Ave. at that time. Eventually, we found it and were rocketing along on a 5 train to the Bronx Zoo. That was one fast train!
The R6's were in their dotage back in 1973 and 1974 - many times the heaters would be puffing away, even in summertime, and there were cars where fans would not be working - or - some of the fans would be working and others not - or - fans would be spinning at different speeds. This was especially true of the cars that had the pointy-nosed GE fans, the R6-1's I believe.
Didn't the Pressed-Steel R9 cars also have these GE fans? I seem to remember some subtle differences between the Pressed-Steel R9s and the other R9s and R7s. If I remember correctly, the only other Pressed-Steel cars to run in the subway were some of the Lo-Vs. PATH used Pressed-Steel cars too, either MP-38s or Black Cars.
Wayne
Pressed Steel built most, if not all, of the Triplex units, as well as some of the BMT standards (2600s, if I remember correctly). To be honest, I never paid any attention to variations in R-1/9 fan blades. My ears would be soaking up the grunts, moans, groans, and other assorted bull and pinion gear sounds, and my eyes would be looking out the storm door window trying to see the tracks in the gloom of the tunnel - if the first car didn't have headlights.
The last train of R-1/9s I ever rode on was a CC in July of 1971. Otherwise, that honor would have gone to an LL on June 6, 1970.
After 1971, trips to New York, let alone subway rides, were very infrequent until 1977. In fact, I didn't ride on the subway at all during all of 1974 and 1975.
You're bringing back memories, Steve - #1233, bathed in gory graffitti, complete with monsters and ghouls, and what looked to be Gandalf the Wizard (complete with pointed moon-and-stars hat), leading the charge from Union Turnpike to Parsons Boulevard, its bull-gears howling at A-flat above middle "C"; #1277 ("Express to Heaven" - more on that another time) roaring through the East River tube with passengers squeezed into every square inch and NO FANS working; #986 getting overly amorous for the rear end of R10 #3062 back on 7/17/70;
the creaking and wheezing "KK"s and occasional "QJ"s, some of them with their hideous green interiors; #991's brood breaking down between 50th/8th and 7th Avenue, leaving us high and dry for an hour...
I do kind of miss the R1/9s (and the R4s, R6s and R7s too)...
Wayne
You know, all the R-7/9s I ever rode on the Eastern Division had that two-tone blue interior finish. When I rode those beloved old-timers on the IND, all I ever saw was the two-tone green interior finish. My sign box still has that mint green paint on the interior portion.
I didn't think the R-10s were too fond of AMUE cars. The SMEEs stuck together.
Want to know what else I got a big kick out of? The indentations on the doors on the outside. It almost made you want to reach out and grab the doors by those indentations and try to pull them open. That's what I almost did when that aging AA train pulled into 42nd St. on May 7, 1967, when we were headed to the Museum of Natural History. We even ran neck-and-neck with a D train out of 59th St., bull and pinion gears singing away at E above middle C, until our train had to slow down for its stop at 72nd St. At 81st St., we were treated to an A train thundering past before we could get to the museum entrance. From then on, I couldn't wait to take an express on that stretch.
BTW, back then, I thought Hudson Terminal was up north, near the George Washington Bridge. I got that straightened out pretty quick.
P. S. One correction on my post from yesterday: I did ride a QJ of R-7/9s from 111th St. to Broadway Junction in the spring of 1971. Virtually all of my QJ rides back then were on trains of R-27/30s or R-42s.
A railfan window on an A/C R-40 slant running afternoon express in Brooklyn from Jay to Kings Highway was one of the great riding experiences of the early 1970s.
Ditto for the current-day "Q" express, especially northbound. Watching from the front window of a genuine Slant R40 as it dusts the slowpoke R68s is a real thrill for a subway fan.
Wayne
Don't forget, 200 of the 300 Slant R40 did NOT have air-conditioning; they were on the D for a short while (along with their R40M brethren) before Sumitomo did the GOH in '88-89. These cars, #4150 thru #4349 *(note below), were notorious for having half their lights out and great plumes of soot and dirt around their axiflo fans and from the vents on either side of the center lights. The R40A (#4350-4449)*(note below) had better lighting - in addition to the backlit advertising signs, they had a continuous center light fixture; whereas the non A/C slants only had fixtures between the fans.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
Note: I am using the currently assigned numbers, not the originals.
I do remember seeing R-40Ms on the D in the mid-80s, but they were always coupled with R-42s. I was away from the New York scene for four years, from 1980 thru 1984, so if the slant R-40s ran on the D during that time, that would explain why I never saw them there.
That's about when the Slants were on the "D", albeit briefly. The R40M's always hung out, and still do, with the R42s, although the upcoming car-shift due to the Williamsburgh Bridge closing may change this. I'll be investigating this May 15, if the car-shift occurs.
Steve or Bill from Maspeth will alert us to this movement, I am sure.
Wayne
Now you are talking about the cars when they were at their worst. I was working the D when the R68's were being introduced to service. One day a Q consisting of 10 unrebuilt R40's died on the upgrade between Atlantic and 7th Avenues. I pushed it off the main line to the express track at Parkside Ave. where the train was checked out. That train had 8 dead motors!
Whoa that is bad and who pull the dead motors subway cars???
Four words: everybody out and push!
All kidding aside, even the Chicago Tribune got wind of just how bad the situation was in New York in the early 80s. My aunt sent me an article describing how trains were breaking down left and right; it was pretty depressing. Now if I could just find that article...
Whoa that is bad and who put the dead motors subway cars to the yard???
I remember took the SlantR40 ran on the D line and at that time it was dirty,little light,bad smell,graffie all over the subway cars and no damn A/C was not working. Boy what a ride and i couldn't breathe because of hot air and no A/C.
I rode the Slants on the D from 205 Street to Rockerfeller Center with my sister and my mom. This was in late 1986 for the Radio City Christmas show. In early 1985, I also rode a train of Slants on the D from 59th to 205th coming back from the auto show (when it was at the old colisseum and easy to get to) with my dad. I remember him wanting to go into the next car so we went through the narrow slant end door and it got stuck midway and we had to squeeze through the doorway. It was still a fun ride.
The Slants ran on the A as well and it may have been sometime in the 80s when they last ran there. If you've seen the old NBC sitcom Night Court, the opening sequence shows a Slant R-40 A train entering a station and then later shows it speeding out of the station.
But they will probably end up being associated most often with the B train even though they no longer run there (except for that occasional train that we were talking about). It was quite a shock to see all R-68As on the B line and to see the Slants on the Q for the first time in 1997. I was also surprised to see Slants on the C, D, E, F, L, M, N, and R lines. I always thought they were exclusive to the B line. When did they first get assigned mostly to the B?
They left the "A" line in the mid-80s, spent a little while on lines like the "D" (and perhaps others), and then were delivered into the skilled hands of Sumitomo's engineers, where they were reborn in 1989.
Wayne
I remember when the slant R-40s first arrived on the scene. They debuted on the E and F lines, and we rode an F train of slants once for one stop because my sister liked them. It wasn't until they found themselves on the A in the late 70s that I would ride them again. I never rode them on the E because of my intense dislike for the E line in general at the time; it had nothing to do with the slants themselves.
I believe the slant R-40s saw service on the B and Q lines during the mid-80s, among others, but I must admit I can't recall where I saw them.
I remember first seeing a Slant on the 'B' in April, 1981, although they may have been running there for longer than that since I was away at college September 1978 through December 1981. Prior to that, the 'B' was primarily 38s, with the occasional 27 in rush hours and 42 as a glamour item. The Slants remained a mainstay on the 'B' till October, 1997.
The Slants ran on the 'A' from roughly November, 1977 (when the R-10s went to the 'G') through May, 1984, when the 38s replaced them as companions to the 44s.
Other than that, I've seen Slants on the 'C' Rockaway Park Shuttle during 1978; the 'D' very temporarily during 1985-86; the 'E/F' from their inceptions in 1968 through 1977; the 'G' (with a plain black roll sign route map instead of green) summer 1977; the 'L' sporadically since about 1990; the 'M' roughly 1992-93; the 'N' sporadically since the 1987 Astoria Reversal; and of course the 'Q' since fall '97.
Only once, on a Saturday afternoon in June 1990, did I see a Slant on the 'C' at West 4th and got all excited. My then-future wife thought I needed to get a life. She still thinks so whenever I point out an oddity either on the train or when passing an el structure in the car.
I never seen them on the M line. I guess I will this summer........
In 1992 and 1993 I saw them on the M. Then nothing but R-40Ms and R-42s. But now they're going back.
Ah, they should have kept the Slants on the A to complement the R-44s. Riding the Rockaway Line with Slants might make for one interesting ride. I've ridden Far Rockaway with R-38s and R-44s. The trains (both types) seemed to be going a little slow. R-40 Slants could probably do Far Rockaway faster.
I agree about keeping the slant R-40s on the A. When I rode them on the A in 1978, I was tempted to say they might even be able to outrun the R-10s on the CPW sprint. Man, they were fast! I do remember the first time I rode an A out to Far Rockaway on July 17, 1969. That train of R-10s took the run from Howard Beach to Broad Channel as though it had been shot out of a cannon. It had to be doing 60 mph.
I can't imagine anything outrunning the R-10s. Maybe the R-62s when they were new, or so I hear.
The "L" has its own brood of 48 Slant R40, contiguously numbered from #4398 to #4449, of course, minus #4420-4421 and #4427 and #4428, the latter two who are nursing their bent noses at CI Yard and await an uncertain future. Anyone who has info on these two please let me know. Also NOT SEEN IN SOME TIME: #4416 and #4417.
Wayne
Well, at least you can't blame the bent noses on the BMT standards.
Maybe it was an R-68...
No, it was EACH OTHER. Back during the snow-storm of Jan.7-8, 1996, these two collided at the south end of Bushwick-Aberdeen station. One of them (don't know which) was descending the steep ramp from Bway Junction and lost its footing on the slippery rail. Meanwhile, the other was stuck in B/A station with a balky door. The second one plowed into the rear of the first with a resounding crash, breaking both their cowls and mangling up the bars, gates etc. The second train was running lite and the first had only a few passengers. The accident happened in the wee hours of Monday Jan.8. 1996
Wayne
Well, I was right about the first part, anyway. Now, if they could just perfect anti-lock brakes for subway trains...
I wonder if anyone has any details on the infamous collision of the two Triplex trains on the Sea Beach at Stillwell Ave. in 1955. It was bad enough that the equivalent of one unit had to be scrapped - 6045C and 6078A and B. 6078C was grafted onto 6045A and B and was renumbered 6045C.
The R-44 cars, as delivered, had a device called a "decelostat," which was supposed to reduce the incidence of flat wheels by controlling wheel slip/slide during braking. It didn't work very well, or perhaps it worked well but not reliably (Steve?), and in any case is long gone.
David
[Well, I was right about the first part, anyway. Now, if they could just perfect anti-lock brakes for subway trains... ]
Ouch! Collision between Triplexes! Talk about "The Clash of the Titans"...I bet you could hear the thud all the way to Flatbush. Probably registered at least 3.0 on the Richter Scale as well. I have heard of this incident, but not the circumstances surrounding it. My guess is that one was standing in the station and the other came round the bend (probably on #8 track) and plowed into it. It would be interesting to find out if anyone has a photo or news account of this mishap showing the damage these behemoths did to each other.
Wayne
Wayne: According to two reference sources the collision occured between two Sea Beach expresses near the Stillwell Av Terminal. See p 82 of "Subway Cars of the BMT" by Greller for a picture of 6045 after the collision sitting next to the Coney Island Shops.
Larry, RedbirdR33
May 15 I am travelling again, I will make a stop at GCT to see if this book is in the Museum Gift Shoppe and will check it out. Hard to imagine these two heavyweights inflicting THAT much damage on each other, kind of like Godzilla vs. Rodan, but if one was travelling at speed, something surely would have to give, no matter how sturdy the carbody. Seems the only ones that were impervious to impact were the BMT Standards. Steve B, you can verify this. Even splitting a switch didn't faze #2208. #2330 bounced off the bumper block at Broad Street with just a few minor bruises; the one that smashed into #6494 was basically undamaged...
Wayne
I have Subway Cars of the BMT. The photo in question shows 6045C, I believe, with its end smashed in. There is a caption which reads, "Few would ever want an encounter with the heavy D-types, but it did happen." Like Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali going at it. That same book has a photo of a BMT standard, possibly 2208, "trying to be both an express and a local". It's basically sitting in a station virtually turned sideways. I couldn't see any dents to speak of.
Those BMT standards can be thought of as the Bronko Naguskis of the NYC subway system. FYI, Bronk Nagurski was a Hall of Fame fullback/guard/tacke for the Chicago Bears who was just as indestructable as a BMT standard.
There's also a picture of that in Stan Fischler's 'The Subway' on Page 133. It looks like the rear truck was pushed off the centre casting. Can't tell if there is any damage to the left side of the car, but that's a Standard there, so I doubt it.
Wayne
Did you ever notice that the BMT standards never fought with each other? They also never got out of line with the Triplexes, either.
They never did pick on someone their own size.
Usually when you see the signs all the same, even between the cars, it tells me that this train is assigned to that given line. The signs between the cars looked to be all "B", at least on the right side of the train. I've seen 4246-4247 so many times (and photographed 4246 at least four times), mostly on the "Q". #4242-4243, 4252-4253 were originally sighted by myself as "Q", #4318-4319 and #4152-4153 last seen as "N". I guess they shuffle the Slants around as the need dictates.
Wayne
Your example reminds me of the last A train of R-10s I ever rode on in 1979 or 1980. The cars on either end of the train had A signs on the ends and, I believe, the sides. The eight other cars all had CC signs. The yard crews apparently took a CC train and coupled an additional car on each end. Of course, that train roared along CPW same as always, content knowing that, for that day at least, those cars were back where they belonged.
Your example reminds me of the last A train of R-10s I ever rode on in 1979 or 1980. The cars on either end of the train had A signs on the ends and, I believe, the sides. The eight other cars all had CC signs. The yard crews apparently took a CC train and coupled an additional car on each end. Of course, that train roared along CPW same as always, content knowing that, for that day at least, those cars were back where they belonged.
I see the slants on the B on weekends only. During the week they're always R68a's. They probably turn a few Q's at 57th into B's for the weekend.
I've also been seeing N as an express on the West End at the same time. I didn't think they used the center track for revenue service.
No, the middle track on the West End line is not normally used for revenue service. It is used for reroutes due to track work and stuff like that. I rode on a rerouted B train once which ran express between Bay Parkway and 62nd St. while the Manhattan-bound local track was being redone.
On track four at the Seventh Avenue station there are various mysterious looking devices mounted on Unistrut between the ties. Also there is something resembling a microphone, or antannae at the "North" end of the platform about eight feet off the roadbed. this stuff all looks very new, and has measurements in spray paint around it.
Does anyone know what this stuff is?
dave
This was talked about on SubTalk a few weeks ago. The equipment has to do with Communications-Based Train Control, or CBTC. It is being tested on the IND Brooklyn Line (so that's what it's called!--see another recent thread) express tracks between Church and Seventh Avenues, using R-42s.
David
[On track four at the Seventh Avenue station there are various mysterious looking devices mounted on Unistrut between the ties. Also there is something resembling a microphone, or antannae at the "North" end of the platform about eight feet off the roadbed. this stuff all looks very new, and has measurements in spray paint around it.
Does anyone know what this stuff is?]
First, I have no concept about what's involved in the hardware or software of organizing, building, publicizing and maintaining a web site. With that as my background, I can only state that it is with deepest appreciation, seeing how complex and popular it is, that I offer my thanks to Dave Pirmann, who must donate so much of his time, and (unreimbursed) money, for our viewing, educational and communication benefit.
Why is he doing this? Obviously, his love for the system, its history, complexity, problems, opportunities, etc., with a good dose of volunteering and good will so we readers can find satisfaction (and contribute), too. But I have seen the topics begin to wander - sometimes silly items, sometimes items about other transit systems (maybe this is a compliment to Dave!), off-topic items, etc.
One of the things I find most frustrating, when you see topic headings carried through a string of thread responses, is that the responses sometimes get "derailed" to some peripheral (at best) or non-related new topic. May I suggest that if you wish to post something not related, please consider not adding it but creating a new topic with an appropriate name?
Along that line, please also consider whether the topic should be posted, at all. The recent items that were posted and removed by Dave (I didn't see any) show that we site readers and users are not being fair to all others. This is not a site for hateful diatribe or worse. I recall, maybe around a year ago, another situation involving racial epithets that may have resulted in a police investigation, as noted in SubTalk. Back then, Dave also posed the possibility of having to drop SubTalk if its users can't behave themselves. Do we need to get so emotional, and verbially "toxic", that he is considering it again? It would be a shame to lose this valuable forum because of the selfishness of some uncaring users.
So think before you post - count to ten and rethink. If you find you're angry, don't post. Correspond privately by e-mail. I'd like to see less whining, more factual information, for example, average ridership on each line. I've never seen it.
Thanks,
Mike Rothenberg
I couldn't agree with you more. A few years back when I first became connected to the net and discovered this site, I was in heaven with the fabulous amount of information on the NY system (and others) that was available. Through this site I have learned so much more than I would've ever been able to get elsewhere. I don't log on here to listen to bickering nor, do I suspect, do the majority of readers.
So please for the sake of the site and its continued success, please refrain from fighting. There's enough hatred out there in the real world - don't need it here in cyberspace!
I would just like to say that I myself would be considered a rookie on this sight as far as posting items and really getting into subway buffing. But this would be great time to say to DAVE and to all the good people who provide such knowledable information on this site for a job that is above and beyond well done. To all thank you very much for making this such a fun hobby.
Good advise from Mike & Ian.
P.S. It's real easy to modify the "Subject" line ! I see a couple of guys/gails get into a discussion that may move a little off the thread of even off topic. That maybe OK, but do the rest of us a favor & modify the Subject line, leaving a piece of the old.
P.P.S. And a B-I-G thank you to Dave
When you reply to a message a form will appear with "your name". "e-mail address" and "subject". Go to the suibject filed. Your cursor will change to what looks like a cpital letter I. Type in the new subject. Now type your message.
Dave- excellent job.
On May 26th the USPS will issue a fifteen stamp Celebrate the Century postage stamp sheet commemorating the 1950's. One of the fifteen 33 cent stamps will recognize the World Series Rivals, specifically the Brooklyn Dodgers and the New York Yankees. The stamp will show a baseball stadium in the background with lapel pins in the foreground for both the Dodgers and the Yankees. Almost dead center in the stamp is a picture of a NYC subway token to represent how fans traveled between the rival boroughs. The token illustrated appears to be the first or 15 cent token. I think this is the first time that a NYC subway token has appeared on a US postage stamp. Unfortunately due to USPS policy a person will have to buy all 15 different stamps to obtain one stamp showing the token. The fifteen stamp sheets should sell for $4.95 each. Each stamp is good for first class postage.
Karl: Welcome back. I missed your stories of Brooklyn. I seem to recall that the original issue of dime size token were solid. They were only minted in a limited quality and were replaced by the same token with the "Y" cut out.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I'm sure you're right. The picture I saw of the new stamp appears to indicate that the Y is indeed cut out on the token pictured. Would that then make it the second token?
Karl B
Karl: I don't know why the very first tokens were solid but only a small amount were minted and they were pulled from circulation fairly quickly I understand. I have seen them though. There were the exact same token as the one with the Y cut out so maybe it was just an error at the mint.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Where can I find infornation on the Sunnyside Yard(Track Layouts). I am an N guage RR modler and would very much like to reproduce this yard. I am extremly intrested in these yards since so many trains pass through, around and over this yard.
Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Bill
Are you going to model the catenary too? :) Though, a little fleet off N (or HO) GG-1s and AEM-7s would be cool. Oh yeah, and little MP-54s and silverliners for commuter service too :)
Depending on the "time" of your layout, don't forget the big Railway Express facility there & a spir for the Circus train!
Mr t__:^)
I'm sorry, I can't help with the ex PRR side, but I do have track diagrams of the LIRR yard A, next door. I also have "F" interlocking and Harold. If that helps.
Speaking of LIRR track maps, anyone have detailed track maps of the whole system? Sidings, switches, etc..? I'd like to get ahole of a copy if I could.
Yes, I do. I have comlete and detailed maps of the entire LIRR system, including freight sidings. E mail me if you want copies.
The first 5-car set of Bombardier R-142s are scheduled to be delivered on or before May 21. They will be delivered by truck to 239th St yard. More info to follow.....
I picked the No.2 Line thinking I was just going to operate the last of the old Redbirds for at least 4 Mouths but probably in 2 Mouth I operate those new trains. Hopefully they will go to the No.5 Line.
Currection I forgot to erase JR from the Post. If my son post anything he will now as 5 train Dave so theres no mix up.
Beautiful. I been waiting for 2 years to see them make teir debut.Hopefully I will see it when I make a visit to the Apple in June.keep us posted.
Are you kidding? It will take many many months to get them on the road. They must be track tested, trips without passengers, maintance crews trained, motormen & conductors trained, etc. If they are in service by fall you'll be lucky.
Well, isn't all this testing and training happening on the new middle track of the Dyre Ave line?
--Mark
There has been realy no tranning exept the T/O that operated the R 110B. I have not been trained yet so if the New trains come they will have to train me and 95% of the other crews.
NO
Is 239th to be their permanent assignment. Reading earlier posts, I thought the R-142s would be going to the E. 180th St. yard first, for use on the 2-5 lines. If they go to 239th, then they'll likely turn up first on the 1 line.
You have your Yards Mixed up. 240 St is the Home of the No.1/9 Line.
239 Street is the main Yard for the No.2 Line and some 5 trains. E180 Street is the yard for the No.5 Line. So they may start out on the No.2 Line or get mixed in with the Both lines.
Your right. The street numbers are too close together for me, even if the yards aren't.
The Bronx is one place they should DEFINATELY include the West and East portions of the street name. But it won't help much. 239st yard is NORTH and east of 240st.
-HAnk
Back in the 80's, a ramp was built at 239th St. so subway cars could be loaded and unloaded from trucks. This is just a convenient place to off-load the cars. If E. 180th St. shop is completed, the cars will be moved there.
Conveinient for cars coming from Yonkers, that's for sure. If you can find out EXACTLY when they're being delivered, I'd like to get some pictures....
-Hank
Rumor has it that the new barn at E.180 should be open for business within the next two weeks. And to think that I was just telling the rumor-spreader that that would be great if only they had the new cars. Who knew?
Well it's about time! I thought they'd never come! Finally nice new cars for the 2 and 5 lines. Hope the testing goes successfully. Does anybody know what's going on with the Kawasaki R-142s? Just 5 cars are coming? Will more cars follow soon? This is all good news to me!
Well, pelham Bay Dave's news of the first cars coming on or before may 21st is welcoming news, since an earlier post said it wouldn't be until July. But again, testing will take some time. -Nick
The credit belongs to steve. But I disapponted and happy at the same time. I love to operate my R 33 for a full pick but then the R142 will be nice operating the news trains to hit the rails in NYC subway. so now I can maybe get lucky and operate a R 26 which is the oldest on my way to Flatbush and can a brad new tech train back to E 241 ST.
With a little luck, maybe you can get the first revenue run :)
Will we recieve written invitations? :)
-Hank
Does anyone know aprroximately what the R-142s look like? Will they look like the R-110A, the R-142 mockup at the transit museum, or the picture on the Bombardier web site? If they look like the TA mockup, that would be cool, because it has a red front, and this way the new cars can be a tribute to the outgoing Redbirds that faithfully served the line for so many years.
I doubt it. I think it look like the one on the Bombadier website....
The R-142 and R-142a will not be identical. One will have red accents on the front of the car.
All the good people of subtalk are welcome to ride my train on the No.2 Line on Saturday. No resurvations needed. I make the 9:14AM and
1:44PM out of E 241 Street. Until the R142 arrives you will have a
1 Hour and 30 ride to Flatbush on a R 33 OR IF LUCKY a R 26 all the way down. As far as the R 142 i'll keep you posted.
Red birds rock R 142s well we'll have to wait and see
operating a redbird and the new kids on the block there won't be any comparison to the Redbirds
Car Equipment will have to go over the arriving units head to toe. Crews need training so I don't think they'll be in passenger service for awhile...
Crews need training so I don't
think they'll be in passenger service for awhile...
This may be true,Anthony. But right now Boston is running two new type 8 trolleys, and training people at the same time. Of course, the new trains have very limited service right now. What might happen is that one r142 may go into revenue service for awhile, and then the others will come if all goes well. It would be nice if at leas tone of them was here in 1999.
Also, not all your redbirds are going away...300 of them will remain on the #7 for a few more years. Plus, the R62's wil be going under rebuilding soon. It wouldn't surprise me if the r62's are taken out of service when most of the r142's have arrived, and then the redbirds take over the 3,4, and a few 6 cars until the re-building is complete. Perhaps some TA workers will know if this plan is right. -Nick
R62a equipt will be linked barred in to 5 unit trains and transverse cabs at operating ends. Before the R142's can be used in passenger service extensive testing will be done by Car Equipment.
That doesn't mean that the R62A's on the 3 Line are going to be arranged into 5 car sets necessarily. You'd have to consider the complexity of the train yard (limitations of Lenox) and the adverse impact there would be on the Times Sq-GCT Shuttle. As I see it, cars on the 3 are getting transverse cabs, but aren't being link barred.
Has the TA brass figured out how they are going to solve the complexities of the 3 and Shuttle Lines???
Speaking of the R142s, I'm incredibly surprised that the cars are going to be unloaded at 239 St Yard. I would have thought that they would have entered through 207 St or Coney Island being that these are the major shops for installing car components. Am I to safely assume that the 239 Street Shop has the proper facilities (or manpower for that matter) for assembling the car equipment?
-Constantine
As for lines such as 3 and GC shuttle cars COULD be linked barred and components shaired such as air brake compressors and in non operating cabs items such as master controller and brake stand removed to 1 eliminate excess wait for non operating equipment and less the weight of a subway car to save money of electricity and less to maintain 2- extra spare parts to save money with.
The R 62 on number 4 I think have controller and brake stand only at operating cabs and brake compressors in cars 1-3-5 cars 2-4 just have volume or supply air tanks.
I don't understand why everyone seems to think that they'll link ALL the cars, or link them all into 5-car sets! They don't have to, and probably aren't going to.
-Hank
Someone posted earlier that some R-142s will be linked into 4-car sets, and some into 6-car sets.
Someone posted earlier that some R-142s will be linked into 4-car sets, and some into 6-car sets.
On second thought, I think they were referring to R-62As.
flexibility is the key depending on where equipment will be destined to is where they will eventully linked in sets for that line. lets just see what happens
"Am I to safely assume that the 239 Street Shop has the proper facilities (or manpower for that matter) for assembling the car equipment?"
The cars will be delivered virtually "RTR". The car inspectors at 239th St/E. 180th St., suplimented by Vendor Personnel, will be able to easily handle any prep-work needed to be done.
As for your #3/GCShuttle questions, the entire IRT fleet is not being replaced. There are still 422 R-62s and 825 R-62As (give or take a few) that will remain in service. Not all of the R-62As will be linked to accommodate the special needs of those lines that do not run 'standard length' trains.
I thought that the number of R62 had been reduced to 420 - and that #1435 and #1436 had been destined for scrap. I noticed they converted #1438 to transverse cab...
Wayne
Hey Fella it not 420 cars, it 320 R62 cars from #1301-1625 and lost 5 cars because of Union Sq accident in 1991.
I Stand Corrected! Must have forgotten how to count, or else was counting R42s... Sorry Bout That. Total number _is_ 320, correct?
Disposition of #1435, #1436, #1439 - still pending? Thought I saw one of them (from a distance) at 207th Street Yard back on April 24 but it was very far away from where I was.
Wayne
Thanks for the info, Steve. I wasn't sure as to what the procedure was with getting new quipment operational.
Regarding the R62A situation, I realize that some cars have to remain single. The TA is NOT going to spend money modifying the shuttle line, or expanding Lenox Yard. They CERTAINLY are not closing Lenox, otherwise there may be difficulties. Having a bottleneck at 96 St isn't exactly what I call fun, assuming for argument sake that the best alternative for 3 train storage was 137 St or 240 St Yards.
Thoughts if any?
-Constantine
The piece of equipment that often cause trouble in a train consist is the coupler. From what i've read the electric portion alone can cause trouble if pins don't align properly when cars are added. DIRT alone on the pins is a headache. Air troubles when a leak occurs in the coupler is another one. alot of maintenance can be eliminated if couplers were only at operating ends. I suppose lower maintenance cost could be realized from this stand point alone. Link barred units with hard wired electrical connections and air hoses AND an elimination of the mechanical coupling (save weight and maintenance) at non operating sections of a consist.
Standard acceptance practice at the TA goes like this. The first cars are delivered and undergo static function testing. When the static testing is completed, the cars (all 5) will likely begin a 6 month qualification period where the cars will operate in simulated service. Any significant failure during this period will cause the clock to start over. Once the cars complete the 6-month test, the real deliveries will begin. Of course, a second set of cars may be delivered for the obligatory media "Dog and pony Show".
Do you think there is a possibility that they will have the R-142s on display for tour of the Coney Island shops in May.
Hey Ron don't forget the ???????? at the end. ok
Im very happy that the new R142 will be on the track in may and hope if i see the R142 than i will take some pictures. So peace out Justin2669 (a.k.a.Mean DJ)
I don't think so, well not in May at least!!
i'll have my eyes open
The reviews of the Phila page seem positive. One minor note - my e-mail address is "bogawrt@erols.com", not bogart - close but a variation. You may want to correct this. Thanks.
Also, I saw a minor error in the photo of the old PCC at what the caption says is Cheltenham & Ogontz. Actually the location is Willow Grove. The 6 car is signed for C & O, which was a turnback for the line in either direction at the time. The 6 got cut back to C & O permanently in 1958. The loop at C & O was (and still is) a relatively simple one, with the only accoutrement being a lunch shack that is no longer. I believe the 6's track remains in the pavement on the Ogontz/309 side of the loop.
Thanks for both the corrections. The photo's been in the family for a long time but it wasn't labeled. That designation was the best my father and aunt could come up with at the time...
-Dave
How much is the fare on SIRTOA? Is it $1.50 or it depends on far you travel?
It's free unless you start or end your journey at St. George. See
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/sir/sirfare.htm
-Dave
Dave is correct IF you board the train somewhere along the line other than St George & exit elsewhere to end you trip.
Most folks board there and many transfer to a bus to complete their trip. So, they either use a MetroCard or pay cash & get a Transfer from the bus farebox in the St. George station for a free transfer to that bus.
Mr t__:^)
Dave -
The link is outdated. Any idea where the new location may be?
Thanks
I don't understand the technology here! When you click the address in Dave's message, first you get a notice that the address is outdated, but you eventually wind up at the MTA home page. Once there, you go into NYC Transit and eventually get the Staten Island Railway. When you get to its fare page, the address is identical to the one Dave posted. I can't figure this out!
It's kind of like weekend track work when a local runs express and you have to take the train to the next express stop, then catch the local in the other direction to get off.
See, the technology isn't so much different from real life!
--Mark
Oops; I inadvertantly put an extra end quotation mark in the URL link. So just find the page as Sid suggested. Sorry about that.
-Dave
During the 1960's, the 7700's & 7900's R26 & R 28 "married pairs" on the #2,4,&5 lines were mismatched. Example: 7750 married to 7912, etc. My question is: When these cars were rebuilt in 1985, were they put in consecutive order? Example: 7750 married to 7751, or were they renumbered into consecutive order? If they were renumbered, does anyone have a list of the original serial numbers? Only the 7800's on the #6 at that time were in order.
Thank you!
Joel G.
I'm pretty sure they weren't renumbered, (Steve???) but other than a few here and there I remember them pretty much having their "correct" mate.
Wayne
All of the units that I have seen were all properly "married".
The R-27s/R-30s, before their retirement, were "divorced", too ....
--Mark
Since the R-26s and R-28s originally had couplers at their blind ends, it would have been very simple to mismatch them. Most likely, if one of the cars in a married pair had a problem, the good car would have been coupled to a suitable mate and returned to service.
That's probably why I saw driving ends facing blind ends on the 2 line in the early and mid-80s before they were rebuilt. I knew the R26/28s had couplers before rebuild, but I didn't know that they were permanently linked after until I saw it for myself.
The R-26's and R-28's retain there original numbers. They were never renumbered. By and large the R-26's and R-28's stayed faithful to their mates (Unlike some units on the BMT who shall remain nameless),but as you said occassionally they were mis mated even turning up with an R-17 or R-21. One mismated unit even turned up on the 42 Street Shuttle which is the only time I think a maried pair ever ran there.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I, too, have a vague recollection that sometime way back in the 1960's or early 1970's, it was very common to see mismatched R26/R28's on the Lexington Avenue local. Sorry I can't be more specific.
Larry, I think we had this discussion once before. At the time, I brought up a question of coupling R-16 6387 with R-27 8306 or whichever number the one at the Museum bears. This would be the same situation: coupling one car of a married pair without its mate to a single car. You explained it back then, but it's worth repeating: would there be any ramifications?
P. S. I think I know which BMT units you're talking about. They wouldn't be those mean old, three-doors-per-side, Brighton Bullies, would they?
Steve: I don't recall mating an R-16 with an R-27 but I do know that during the late 60's and 70's it was possible to see an R-26 or 28 mated to a single unit such as an R-17 or R-21. This was possible because the R-26/28's (like the R27/30/30A) were connected by regular couplers while the later married pairs were connected by link bars and were much harder to split apart.
The cars I was referring to were the R27/30/30A which in later years were seldom seen with their proper mates. Even after GOH there was not a great effort to keep them together.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R-27s and R-30s also had couplers at their blind ends originally. I can't recall if it was a compressor issue or something else, but if it was possible to couple an R-17, R-21, or R-22 to a "widowed" R-26 or R-28, I would imagine it could also be done with an R-16 and a widowed R-27 or R-30.
I thought it might be fun to take a farewell to Willy-B fan trip this Friday, April 30... an informal gathering of SubTalkers. No reservations, no charge (well, except your $1.50 or unlimited MetroCard equivalent!).
How about meeting at Canal Street Station of the J/M/Z, head end, at 6:00 p.m. on Friday to catch a Broooklyn Bound train for a trip over and back? I'll have my CBS News hat on. I'll even bring good weather *grin*.
Would love to join you, Todd, but I'll be on my way to the East Penn Traction Club show in Southern Jersey at that time. But I already took my fantrip about a month ago. Videotaped a ride on the J from Chambers St to Jamaica Center.
Now if you could get a D-Type to do it, you'd really be cooking :)
And you don't really mean farewell to the Willie-B, um, that is, I just thought it was taking a 6 month vacation to trains .... (can you say "Mahnattan Bridge"?)
--Mark
Mark,
Are you going to the show on Friday night or Saturday? Looks like I have to make it on Friday eve, Saturday night is a wedding.
Do you model the nyc subway too? I am lucky enough to have an extensive collection in HO, got most before I married and had kids.
By the way, if you really want the trip over the bridge to cook, you will need the ABs, but in a pinch the D-types will have to do. Remember, the D-types that did the run on the 4th Ave local to Chambers st. then ran light to either Metropolitan or East New York yards to lay up until the evening run back!
Mike H
Well, after a two week hiatus I'm back. I'll have to look into joining whoever shows up at this fan trip. I've never travelled on the J/M/Z train.
As for modeling the subway, I'm trying that.
Dave,
You are lucky, these days so many models are being or going to be done in plastic, sure beats the price of brass. But if you fot the money, the brass cars if you can find them are beautiful, only a couple of models to stay away from.
Mike H
Alas, with my monetary situation(being a student), it will be years before I realistically complete the section of the total model I've planned that I've started construction on. And they don't make the type of cars I want to model, so I was going to use cheap cars until such a time as either they do or I build some.
Out of curiousity, how many people here have tried modeling parts of the subway?
I have every intention of modeling the SIR pre-1957. Now, if I only had a funding source, and a talent for scenery....
-Hank
I found that urban scenes ae really, really easy to model. I wouldn't consider myself an artist by any means, but the scenery I did was basically putting existing kits together in a street pattern. It ended up looking pretty good!
My wiring isn't hidden THAT well as compared to other model RR layouts that I've seen, yet no one seems to notice it unless I point it out.
--Mark
But most of what I'd be modeling isn't urban, it's more like early Long Island.
-Hank
You should really check out "Model SubTalk"; there is a link to it in our Transfer Station.
I have begun construction on a freelance N scale module of the maximum size permitted under Ntrak specs - 16 feet, with 6" extensions front and rear - that will contain a subway station down below the main Ntrak level. It's not a model of any particular station - it will be a four track express (two island platforms) of the appropriate length for an eight car train of American-looking Japanese-prototype cars (I have eight Green Max kits, hence the size). I'm planning to set it up for continuous loop operation on the local tracks with another continuous loop on the express tracks that will have a home-modified triple-mode engine (a Japanese B-B-B diesel, to which I will add pantographs and third rail shoes) hauling either a suburban-service train or a work train. There will additionally be street trackage with a wire crew removing the overhead post-abandonment and a two-plus-one (alternate branch) Ntrak main on viaduct reminiscent of the NYC West Side freight line. So far I've just built some of the many structures required -I consider this a ten-year project.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wish you the best of luck man. I want to do something like that myself but I think I wait until I retire.......... Hopefully these model cars wont be more expensive..........
That's why it's a ten-year project - in ten (well, OK, fifteen) years I'll either be retired or dead!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are you going to the show on Friday night or Saturday? Looks like I have to make it on Friday eve, Saturday night is a wedding.
I'll be there both days. I'll have a table of my videos there, so I have to be there Friday evening to set up.
Do you model the nyc subway too? I am lucky enough to have an extensive collection in HO, got most before I married and had kids.
Yes. My layout is 2 tables 4' x 8' and one 4' x 6', connected by a 1' stip. 2 track mainline for the most part, some "passing areas" and layup tracks. 2 local stops (island subway plaforms), one terminal with 3 tracks, 2 island platforms, one track runs through. One terminal, 4 island platforms, 8 tracks. Imagine Stillwell Ave 1/2 open cut and 1/2 underground. It's not a specific layout of anywhere in NY per se, but much of its construction was done based on NY, such as the dirty tile wall with a blue band, station design & signage (NYC subway maps were cut up for signage) and grafitti in the tunnels. Part of the layout runs in subway tunnels, some open cut. One table is not done yet at all, the other larger table is almost done. With two kids myself, I haven't done much work on it in a while.
I expect to video it this week so those of you interested in checking it out can see it at the show. It's not portable, though (it was and is my first layout).
The fleet - 7 IND R4s, 5 AB Standards, 3 R-15s, 12 BART cars, 10 WMATA cars, 3 WMATA cars repainted in the NYC Transit silver & blue stripe theme.
By the way, if you really want the trip over the bridge to cook, you will need the ABs, but in a pinch the D-types will have to do. Remember, the D-types that did the run on the 4th Ave local to Chambers st. then ran light to either Metropolitan or East New York yards to lay up until the evening run back!
This is true, though the current set of 3 museum ABs aren't runnable yet.
--Mark
I'll come if I can, but everything I do is subject to the needs of the wife and kids. Just repost Friday so I don't forget.
P.S. I think you meant a Queens Bound J, M or Z, no? A Brooklyn bound M would be going to Bay Parkway. Those designations are hard to follow on the old Eastern Division.
Yes, Larry, I meant Queens-bound. I guess I was thinking of Williamsburg, Brooklyn. For goodness sakes, my father had an office on Bushwick Ave. when I was a little kid!
Hope you can make it!
If the weather is nice, count me in!
I am also considering doing some other "after-work" fan trips by myself, company is welcome, particularly up to the 2/5 lines in the Bronx and the 7 in Queens for redbird spotting.
-Dave
Dave, it will be great to have the SubTalk Host along on Friday! I'll make sure there's good weather. But after the Willy-B crossing I'll have to bail out... I have a 3:00 a.m. wake-up on Saturday morning for Transit and Weather Together at WCBS.
Todd-- I didn't mean after the Willy B crossing, I meant some other night. Although I think I and probably others will spend the rest of the available daylight along the J and M lines...
I suggest a stopoff at Marcy and maybe a walk back along the el structure for a photo shoot or two in the evening sunlight. Then back to Myrtle and up the M.
-dave
I would love to have someone to go on fantrips with. Going on them alone is rather depressing at times. Can a subsection of the site be allocated as sort of a ride board? We don't need the Transit Museum always to go on these non-invasive tours that they've been having more of. We can arrange to gather, go and ride around, swap facts, snap pictures, and such.
And I will reiterate. You name the time and the place and the trip and if I can, I will come. Happilly. For my parent's sake though, don't be an axe murderer or something of that nature, they worry about me still.
I usually take a ride a month, to take pictures and take numbers. My next one is scheduled for May 15, 1999. I come in from Babylon via LIRR, starting on the 8:06 and leaving on the 4:31. My E-mail address is above if you are interested...subway-buff will be along with me on the May 15 trip.
Wayne
Back in the late 60s, there was a 7:55 AM LIRR train out of Babylon which was being cancelled almost daily. It earned the nickname, "The Phantom Train". The radio station we used to listen to would say something like, "Subways OK, train cancellations: the usual 7:55 out of Babylon".
If I remember correctly, it was the 7:55 Babylon to Brooklyn.
I believe you are correct on that, Bob. When I was a tiny-rail-fan I listened to John Gambling (the father of the current one) on WOR-AM [don't tell the folks at WCBS about this!]. It became a daily joke when he announced the cancellation of the 7:55. Then one day I remember the railroad announced it would be running, and WOR actually sent out a reporter to cover the event!
Hey guys and gals,
The infamous phantom 7:55am from Babylon went to Brooklyn, perhaps this was the reason it was the honorary daily cancellation!
Mike H
Ouch! We used to listen to WPAT from Paterson. There was a fellow named Jim Van Sickle (sp) who did the news as well as the daily cancellation announcement of the 7:55. A funny thing: that station was heard on both AM and FM, and the dial positions were 930 KHz AM and 93.1 MHz FM. Coincidence or what? I wonder if that station is still around today.
[A funny thing: that station was heard on both AM and FM, and the dial positions were 930 KHz AM and 93.1 MHz FM. Coincidence or what?]
I'm going to date myself with this reply ....
BEFORE there was stereo on FM a few stations broadcast half on Am and the other half on FM ... my father had one of the tuners that could pull in these two signals & give you stereo. WPAT was one of those stations.
Mr t__:^)
Hey!!! I've got one of those two!!! Mine's a Fisher and it needs to have a few things fixed on it :( I think at some point the FCC actually banned the practice because listeners to just AM or just FM weren't getting "the whole program". More screwiness from our friends at the FCC. They also had the FM band moved after the war to obsolete prewar FM sets (RCA was VERY pleased with this).
The dual tunning feature is nonetheless useful - you can set to an AM staation at one end, asnd FM at the other, and not have to retune when switching between the two....
I recall the "phantom" cancellation. In typical LIRR fashion, they finally proposed to cancel the train rather than keep cancelling it. This brought such bad publicity they vowed to restore it. When they eventually did, their was a bit of a celebration. I recall a photo of the first run using one of the old Brooklyn cars with a mask stretched across the front.
I plan to go on fantrip May 8th after my bus operator exam if anybody is interested......... I plan to ride the A line to 207. I havent been there in years. Maybe the D to 205. It all depends on time.......
Todd--
Of course, you could do things the "lunatic" way.
Get some sleep. Get up at 12:30 AM. Take a J train across the bridge around 1:30 a.m. Take the last train back to Manhattan. Go to a diner, have a leisurely breakfast. Get to WCBS by 4 or 4:30. Crash later (or on the trip back to Boston).
The thought is crossing my mind... (although, in my case, I'd overnight at my mother's in Highland Park before heading to back to Philadelphia). Unfortunately, the chances of my scheme are slim and none.
BTW: I PRESUME the bridge outage will be a highlight of TRANSIT and weather together Saturday morning... Of course, they'll have to mention the weekly shutdown on the Gowanus before they get to the train situation... :-)
Michael
Nice thought, Michael. I actually did stay up once on a Friday night before going to work at 4 a.m. I was fine for a few hours. Then by 8 a.m. my mouth wouldn't move. It was trufyik and wothuh tigitder. Ever since, I make sure I get a good night's sleep.
And yes, I'm sure this Saturday morning our Shadow Traffic reporter (usually Dave Steckle) will highlight the Willy-B shutdown. At some point I'll see if I can throw in a mention of our "fare-well" trip... as a reminder to all:
Please join us! We'll gather at the head end of the Queens-bound J/M/Z platform of the Canal Street Station at 6:00 p.m. on Friday 30 April. I'll be wearing my CBS News hat. So far I've heard from about ten people who will make the trip including our Web Site Host. See you then... and yes, the weather will be perfect!
Todd, somewhat off-topic, in regards to Dave Steckle, if you happen to see him, please tell him I asked if he would say hello to his father for me. He happened to have been one of my teachers several years ago, and has since retired.
I never "see" Dave Steckle. The WCBS Traffic Center, run by contractor Shadow Traffic, is in Rutherford, New Jersey. I am at the WCBS studios in Midtown when I'm on-the-air there. But I can talk to Dave via a closed-circuit intercom. (That's how I tell him about subway diversions to announce! Hehehe you knew I'd get on topic!)
Very well then. The next time you communicate with him.
Todd wrote:
>>Nice thought, Michael. I actually did stay up once on a Friday night before going to work at 4 a.m. I was fine for a few hours.
>>Then by 8 a.m. my mouth wouldn't move. It was trufyik and wothuh tigitder. Ever since, I make sure I get a good night's sleep.
Ouch. You definitely don't want to sound like the drunk guy from Boston (Dennis) who calls in to Imus on occasion (or is done very well by one of Imus' behind the scenes guys). :-)
Seriously, though, I'm sorry I'll miss you guys. :-(
Have fun! I hope to join you on one of these at some point.
M ichael
Hey, give us a full report on this board after the trip so those of us who couldn't go find out what we missed :(
I'll be thinking of you on my way to the East Penn show ....
--Mark
Will do. Here's the final reminder!
"Fare-well" to Willie-B Fan Trip -- gather at the head-end of the Canal Street Station Queens-bound platform at 6:00 p.m. tomorrow, Friday 30 April. No reservations required; it only costs a swipe of your (hopefully unlimited) MetroCard.
So far about a dozen people have responded they'll be joining us. We'll do a first crossing to the other side, then people can decide if they want to go to Metropolitan, or return back to Manhattan for more rides. Some have indicated a desire to have dinner at Peter Lugars; also Bill From Maspeth will be rolling by Essex Queens-bound just after 7:00 p.m.
I'll be wearing my CBS News hat, and I'll bring good weather. Guaranteed! Now as long as I can get there from Boston on time...
I had the same thought ... and wish you good luck on your "T", plane, bus, subway trip (assume U also need to stop by the hotel to drop off your bags). If I thought I could get there in time I'ld tag along, it sounds like one of the events in NYC that make this city a great place to live. (I have signed up for the Coney Isl Shop tour 5/22).
Mr t__:^)
Well Mr. T -- I'll be leaving BOS in about two hours. It's a great day to fly -- hopefully we'll have the "Expressway Visual Runway 33 Approach" into LGA. At 4,000 feet, you fly over LGA towards Manhattan, then south along the Hudson to the Statue of Liberty; turn left and descend to 2,700 feet over lower Brooklyn; follow the BQE to the site of the old Maspeth gas tanks, then follow the LIE to the Kew Gardens Interchange before turning left for final approach to Runway 33. This approach gives you a terrific view of such sites as the Smith 9th Street Station, the Willy-B(!) and Sunnyside Yards.
Often the flight from BOS-LGA is faster than the Q-33 trip from LGA to Roosevelt. Bring on the LGA N extension!
See many of you this evening at 6:00 p.m. at the head end of J/M/Z Canal Street Station.
You know how to make a guy jealous !!!
How I miss those days at Pan Am & flying into/out of NYC ... you are absolutely right the view from up there is spectacular ! The were times, on a clear day, where I actually hoped to circle NYC a couple of times.
Mr t__:^)
I'l be there in spirit. I rode many a QJ over the bridge between 1969 and 1971, either R-27/30s or R-42s, so it brings back many memories. Oddly enough, every single ride back then was to Manhattan. I've gone over the bridge on a Jamaica-bound train exactly once, on a J of R-27/30s on March 11, 1978. Haven't ridden across it since.
Count me in!
Next, we'll have to plan for the re-opening of service on the Franklin Shuttle - sure would be fun to be on the very first train.
If anybody is interested, I'll leave Essex St. around 7:05 PM operating the 6:15 M from Bay Pkwy as MY farewell to the "old bridge."........If you would like to do an encore......I can't promise, but I'll try to find out the intervals of THE last train over the bridge: a J train during the midnite hours of Sat. May 1.
Excellent, Bill. We'll plan on the first trip leaving Canal at 6:00 p.m., then any who want to do another trip can return to join your train.
If the weather is good, you can ride over at 6:00, walk back, and then do the oncore. I've never walked over a major bridge other than the Brooklyn Bridge.
The Willy B shakes a LOT once past the towers (on the suspended section) A bit of a scare, but you get used to it. :)
I wish I could join everyone :(
-Hank
The old walkway had a great spot for pictures just where the Brooklyn anchorage started and the suspension piece ended.
I think the new walkway is covered ans screened in that area now (and relocated to the other side of the bridge).
--Mark
What a great idea! I will definitely try to make it.
What you really should do is have dinner at Peter Luger's when you get
to the other side!!!
Oh yeah I'm all over that! :-)
Anyone else?
ALrighty, that did it. I've gotta come in for this one now! :)
Anyone from Philly want to join me on Amtrak?
I'd hate to have to dissapoint my Cousin...and piss off my parents and other relatives..anger my girlfreind slightly (she likes railtrips :)))))) How lucky am I?)...someone talk me OUT of coming now.....
-Hank
Now you're all getting me annoyed. I never leave work before 6 PM! :-(
Michael
I wish I could make it, but I just rented a car for the weekend to get to Harrisburg PA.....(Cousin's Bat Mitzvah and a little tourism)
-Hank
It looks like the lead car is going to be full of SubTalkers, too bad I have to travel to Binghamton to retrieve my son :-(
With Bill & Todd's help the "Traffic & Weather" should be great ... enjoy !
Mr t__:^)
Todd,
I hope to be traveling to the East Penn meet Friday, but this sounds like fun! Maybe this transplanted New York subway modeler will stop by on his way from Boston. David: Peter Luger's sounds great! Or if you are doing the "M", and you like German cuisine, there's always Niederstien's or Zumm Stammtisch! See you at Canal Street 6PM!
Frank
I'll be there!
I will probably just continue on to Jamaica to catch the LIRR. perhaps with a stop at Broadway Junction to take some additional pictures.
I'll try to make it myself. Great Idea Todd!!
When is sunset Friday??
Any ideas of a GOOD trip to Canal from QueensPlaza or Queens Boro Plaza?? I can leave work around 4pm or in case I have to stay late, what would the quickest routing be (N/R to Lex Ave?? I have a Monthly so I might transfer above ground).....
I work in Long Island City myself (Vernon Boulevard & 44th Drive), but I might drive to work that Friday morning and at quitting time (4:30) drive and park near the Broadway 'N' station. From there, I can take the 'N' (hopefully a 32 or Slant) to Lexington, then the '6' (hopefully a Redbird) down to Canal. Of course, between the oppressive crowding at the Bloomie's transfer, as I call 59/Lex, and the endless dwell time of the downtown '6' at Grand Central, it might be worth it to stay on the 'N' all the way to Canal. I've never seen the unused Canal express platform, so if I can hold my breath long enough, I'll cut through it.
From the Plaza, anything but the 'G' connects with the '6'. Just avoid at all costs changing from the 'F' at Delancey. It's a madhouse on WEEKENDS; I shudder to think what it must be like in rush hour. (This, of course, will change with the Bridge being closed down.)
Take the N from Queensboro Plaza right to Canal Street and walk thru the passageway to transfer to the J.
-Dave
Sunset is at 7:51, candle lighting is 18 miniutes earlier at 7:33; for those who are Orthodox and don't live in either Williamsburgh or the Lower East Side, the timing is a bit tight.
For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, Orthodox Jews observe the Sabbath from sundown Friday until approx. one hour after sundown Saturday; durring that time, travel by any form of powered vehicle is forbidden. One going on the proposed trip would likely have difficulty making it home on time unless he (or she) lived right near the route of the proposed fan trip. The additional 18 minutes added by the time of candle lighting provides a built-in "safty margin"
Not just Orthodox Jews. As a non-Orthodox Jew, I too observe the Sabbath and will do no "work" - it's simply that my definition of "work" varies from that of the Orthodox. (Normally on Friday evening I go to shul - driving, since it's too far to walk - but this weekend I'll be at the National Trolley Meet, helping my fellow club members to make it a successful show. Is that work? Not as far as I am concerned - after all, I'm not being paid, and it is a respite from my usual routine. Spending the day at my usual vocation, however, would be work and would therefore be prohibited from my perspective as well. Both, however, would be viewed as work by an Orthodox Jew. To each his/her own interpretation!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anyone going to the East Penn Trolley meet in New Jersy?
Looks like I'll have to go on Friday eve, Saturday have a wedding (not my own, learned my lesson, should only do it once!)
Mike H
I'll be there, so will Mark Feinman - Mark as a dealer selling his videotapes, I as a club member working my &$$ off. The show will be setting up on Friday night - not 100% open, unfortunately, although if you show up and want to register ($20 at the door, I think) we'll let you in. Saturday's the big day, then Sunday's the fantrip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
so will Mark Feinman - Mark as a dealer selling his videotapes
True. I'll be there aometime before six this Friday evening to start setting up. I'll be wearing a tee-shirt (don't know which one yet) w/ the NYC Subway on it .....
I'll also be showing a videotape on my home layout. Now I better make sure I put it on tape :)
I [Anon-e-mouse] as a club member working my &$$ off.
Aww, gee, I feel so bad for you, all the fun you'll be having :)
--Mark
Reading an article in the "University City Review-4/22-4/28", the headline article reads "Historic trolleys may be back on track!"
Reading through, University City(the neighborhood containing Drexel University and the University of Pennsylvania, from about 33rd St to 40th) is proposing bringing back service to trolley tracks in the area.
The line is: from the trolley depot at 49th and Woodland Av., along Woodland east to 42nd, north and over to Spruce St. to 38th, to Filbert St. and back to 40th and Spruce, but possibly as far north as 41st and Parkside(past Girard Av.) and all of this on currently existing track.
The proposal was to re-instate the PCC cars to give a real feeling to this historic area.
If this is a new route they won't be able to use the PCC's without making ADA modifications. Besides I thought Philly only had a handful left? Like, less than 10?
-Dave
They have some PCCs stored in Germantown Luzerne and I think Callowhill but Im not sure about the last one.
They have some PCCs stored in Germantown Luzerne and I
think Callowhill but Im not sure about the last one.
[The line is: from the trolley depot at 49th and Woodland Av., along Woodland east to 42nd, north and over to Spruce St. to 38th, to Filbert St. and back to 40th and Spruce, but possibly as far north as 41st and Parkside(past Girard Av.) and all of this on currently existing track.]
This routing would use mostly "in-service" trackage that is used during the diversion of the subway-surface lines from the subway to 40th & Market El station.
First, it's my bet that this would be considered a "new" route under ADA mandates and SEPTA isn't going to pay to have PCC cars modified for ADA access!
Secondly, just how much ridership would this service generate. It would be nice to see PCC's running in Philadelphia again, however, SEPTA isn't going to run a service with only railfans riding.
Good try!
Jim K.
Chicago
Why not have the new route continue on Spruce into the Subway-surface tunnel or stay on Spruce into Center City? This would make it more useful.
[Why not have the new route continue on Spruce into the Subway-surface tunnel or stay on Spruce into Center City? This would make it more useful.]
Until 1956, the PTC operated Route 42 Spruce streetcars from 62nd & Osage to Front & Chestnut via Spruce, Woodland (it used to extend all the way to Market, and Walnut. Route 42 returned via Chestnut, Woodland, and Spruce to the loop at 62nd & Osage. At the junction of Spruce and Woodland the Route 13 Chester Avenue line jointed the #42 also using Chestnut westbound and Walnut eastbound. Yes, the Route 13 didn't always use the subway-surface.
These two lines were premier lines in Philadelphia. The PTC infuriated the City of Philadelphia when it converted the #42 almost overnight. The #42, along with the #13, were both heavily traveled routes and required many cars to service it. They received the eighty two-man cars in the 1940 PCC order.
Today, however, there are no tracks on Spruce Street in the downtown area. Hence, it is a safe bet you'll never see streetcars on Chestnut/Walnut or Spruce street in your lifetime. I think its safe to say that the chances for re-newed running on the #15 Girard Avenue is a far stretch.
As I said before, good luck!
Jim K.
Chicago
While persuading SEPTA may be a tall order, note the following. IN SF the F Market line has been a smashing sucess. It is carrying three times the ridership of the trackless route it replaced, and is the one shining star in Muni's otherwise tarnished crown. As to ADA, and I strongly support enforcement, the SF PCC's have a "bridge stored in a closet behind the motorman's seat and there are concrete ramps at the islands. The line is to be expanded by the millenial change and will likely be highly popular. (IT will serve two major tourist attractions at the extreme ends as well as run along the Bay part of the way. The Market Street Railway group has a lovely web site--the link is here @ nycsubway.
[While persuading SEPTA may be a tall order, note the following. IN SF the F Market line has been a smashing sucess.]
ON this subject, I sincerely hope that my opinion is WRONG!
Jim K.
Chicago
SEPTA had a lot of bright ideas for putting track back on Chestnut St, but as usual no $ to support. Yes, it would be nice. However, as long as SEPTA is at the wheel, so to speak, forget any innovation and doubly forget any trolley expansion.
The Girard Ave LRT revival (they won't call it Route 15 any more!) will suffer from the same penny-wise, pound-foolish thought process that plagues SEPTA when the City Division is concerned but sure doesn't come into the equation when the Regional Rail side needs some gold plating. It's really a shame.
And, trackless fans, get your photos now. Word has it that this is the next system that SEPTA is prepared to allow to wither since the AMG's are closing in on 20 years of age and there is no interest in replacement TT's. Why the extension of 66 to Franklin Mills, for example, was allowed to not happen is beyond me. TT's would have easily worked on some of the former trolley lines (also allowed to disappear on SEPTA's watch), but our fair transit operator would prefer to send 1/3 of the fleet off to storage rather than to put it to good use. Go figure.
[And, trackless fans, get your photos now. Word has it that this is the next system that SEPTA is prepared to allow to wither since the AMG's are closing in on 20 years of age and there is no interest in replacement TT's. Why the extension of 66 to Franklin Mills, for example, was allowed to not happen is beyond me. TT's would have easily worked on some of the former trolley lines (also allowed to disappear on SEPTA's watch), but our fair transit operator would prefer to send 1/3 of the fleet off to storage rather than to put it to good use. Go figure.]
Any normal business would endeavor to use ALL of its assets to produce revenue. Since SEPTA purchased said vehicle with public money, I believe, isn't SEPTA responsible to the public to not waste the those assets called ETB's? The public should be howling to their elected officals about this, however, we all know that expecting the public to be "outraged" is a lost cause!
Jim K.
Chicago
You said it Jim. SEPTA is sure doing a lot of stupid things!
I guess we are lucky what we have on the street now!
Chuck Greene
I think septa is doing a find job considering the funds,
and equipment they have. Chuck who's side are you on.
I'll see you at work.
Sign.
Joe Rooks
[I think septa is doing a find job considering the funds,
and equipment they have.]
Joe, if you think SEPTA is doing a good job of utilizing their assets in order to optimize their revenue, well then, I'm glad you're not the CEO of the company I'm working for.
Jim K.
Chicago
Like Sybil and other schizophrenics, SEPTA has many faces. SEPTA, like other transit agencies, has a tough job to do and its critics will always find ways to find fault. As a customer, I am bothered by SEPTA's inability or unwillingness, you decide, to consistently put its best face forward. After all, if it can do this for special occasions, etc, why can't that be the every day mantra?
You are correct about the political problems but this is the reality, like it or not. SEPTA doesn't seem to be smart enough to play the politics against those who use the same game against SEPTA. SEPTA is also not very responsive to its customers but it kow-tows to every political whim that there is, regardless of how silly or useless it happens to be. The Girard Ave light rail project is an example of how SEPTA should probably not spend scarce capital funding, given the real benefit to users, but it will since this is a political football. And customers like me will foot the bill for stuff like this.
Once upon a time, SEPTA even cultivated transit fans and this at least showed support to a group that "loves you back" (to use the awful Phila tourist slogan). Not any more. Look at the success of Trolleyfest back in the early to mid 90's. Why no more? These were very successful events and gave SEPTA lots of positive media exposure. Have we had a Trolleyfest since '95? Why not? Where's the Zoo Trolley? SEPTA is quick to ax stuff like this to save money.
I support transit wholeheartedly and use SEPTA every day. SEPTA, however, is doing its best to chase away riders. I see it on my line all the time. I wish this could change but it's not. SEPTA is serious about change, but I'm still waiting patiently...
Joe:
Your E-Mail is kaira1941@aol.com
Chuck
Ahh, Septa. At least when I go home to Philly, I can ride trains, even though they are wonderful Septa service.
The thing is, while Septa makes a good number of shortsighted and/or stupid decisions, I think the overriding problem for Septa is lack of funding and lack of political clout for the city.
How do you think the RRD is gold-plated? Yes, it is far more subsidized than the city division, but so are the commuter RRs in New York. I would think that 99% of RRD riders would say it is ANYTHING but "gold plated!" I've stood on enough of those "platforms" under "shelters" in the rain to sympathize with them, and wonder if a daily commute on Septa RRD would not dampen my railfan instincts...
Recently bought the last copy of "Rail Transit Philadelphia Twenty Colorful Years 1969-1989" at the Red Caboose, NYC.
Gives me the ability to see what you guys are talking about (lot of photos of PCCs)
Mr t__:^)
I agree with your points but I'll stick to the gold plated comment. By comparison with the City and Suburban Divisions, the dollars per passenger ratio of capital funding spent is much, much higher for Regional Rail. The same can be said for subsidy. The farebox ratio is very low on RR. Yes, there remain problems, but take a ride on the bus system and you'll see similar ones.
I don't have the figures at hand but I've seen them and they have not come as a surprise. Admittedly, the RR is more expensive to operate than the bus/trolley/subway system. Of course, one way to deal with this would be to greatly overhaul the way the system operates...
SEPTA spent over $300 million (with the City's help) for the Commuter Tunnel. Railworks was also in this price range. The number of bridge replacements, rail projects, station renewals, etc is large and impressive. In the same time period, what's happened on the non-RR side? This is my argument.
Looks like renewed surface trolleys are destined to become the Second Avenue Subway of Philadelphia. Would it have killed the city government to have made the Chestnut Street Transitway for trolleys? Who knows, it just might have been a success with trolleys?
[Who knows, it just might have been a success with trolleys?]
The trouble with streetcars on public streets is the motorists.
Motorists today don't have respect for pedestrians, other motorists, some trucks, law inforcement - need I go on. Do you really think they would respect the right-of-way of a streetcar?
The classic example is the Spadina Line in Toronto. There have been so many collisions with automobiles since it opened.
Unfortunately, the streetcars fixed right-of-way has been its downfall. Automobiles just wouldn't give heed to the trolley!
Jim K.
Chicago
This will be one of the bones of contention with the Girard Ave LRT project. Can trolleys survive in a center reservation which just makes them better targets for careless drivers? And with SEPTA's track record, an easy litigation target?
Incidentally, one of the posts noted Pennsylvania law on wide gauge. The state passed this when horsecars were around, in the 1850's I believe, mainly to keep steam railroads off the streets of cities and towns. The railroads responded by building their own trackage in the same streets! Pennsylvania's broad gauge is generally 5' 2 1/2" but the Phila variation is 5' 2 1/4".
Issue #240 (Jan/Feb 99) of Trolley Talk had an article by James A. West with a couple of photos of Kawasaki LRVs showing SEPTA's new paint job. It also said they were planning to re-introduce trolley service on Route 15 on Girard Ave in N. Philly using equip that was going to replaced by a new batch of low floor LRVs. The was no mention of PCCs.
Mr t__:^)
Ah, let's hope the Girard Avenue Light Rail (to use SEPTA terms) project doesn't run into trouble. SEPTA should designate the former Route 15 as its red line. Considering all the unsuccessful proposals to restore the old routes, it looks like surface trolley service is destined to become the Second Avenue Subway of Philadelphia
When I tried to access Richard Levine's "Subway" page, it said he wasn't on the server. What happened?
> When I tried to access Richard Levine's "Subway" page, it said he
> wasn't on the server. What happened?
Thanks for letting me know, I like to clean up dead links.
As for what happened to his site, I have no idea. Maybe he switched ISP's. I don't know him personally so I really have no idea.
-Dave
Today is the day slated for release of SEPTA's Capital budget for 2001-2011.
We finally get to see SEPTA's marbles as to some of our wilder and radical dreams like restoration of the Girard Avenue tracks and ordering new LRV's for the SS trolleys as well as the Schuylkill and Cross Valley Metros.
Keep ope' yer peeps.
I asked the question of the operation at the stub end terminals on the CTA like Midway and O'Hare. Today I found out my answers. At Midway trains approach the station with a 15mph speed command into the platform track circuit. The speed command is removed when the rear end of the train vacates the interlocking. Trains have be come to a complete stop and then proceed with a flashing red cab aspect of 15mph to the final stop (stop and proceed aspect). The track continues approximately 100 feet beyond the platform for a full length train to come to a stop at the end of the platform with some runoff track.
Why don't you CTA buffs like John Bredin, Esq. check this out for me? THANKS!!!
Can anyone offer assistance updating the Philly transit/light rail roster? I know there are more m-4's in service than we have listed and I'm sure other changes have occured as well.
Thanks,
dave
So far the highest number I have seen on the M-4s is 1146 which means there are 146 M-4 cars. Unfortunately.
Hopefully most service on the Market Frankford line will be cool, comfortable M-4's by the beginning of the hot weather season this summer.
Hey there trackless_fan--- do you have any info about the trackless trolley routes in philly? I'd like to have something about them too, at least in the roster, if not a whole page w/ photos...
(note to self: more to look at during the July ERA trip)
-Dave
Sounds like you're going to put me to work again, huh Dave? I can put a piece together and supply a roster, but Subway Buff has me busy on another assignment so the trackless stuff may need to wait.
The rough roster is 110 vehicles, 800-909. About 45 of them are in storage. The first 10, 800-09, are lift equipped (the first SEPTA vehicles ever purchased with lifts). I believe all 10 are in storage.
M-4 cars are junk just like trackless trolleys. Both should be banned from the ridind public.
Whoa! Let's not start a flame war here! I can't speak for the M4s, not having ridden one yet, but if I have to ride on the surface, I'd a whole lot rather ride a trackless than a stinky, smelly diesel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Im sorry for me dislikings of trackless trolleys. I actualy hate the AM Generals. The Old Marmons and Brills I was Quite fond of. When I was 5-6 I remember seeig that one old coach that was repainted in red white and blue and had the chopper controls installed in it. I remember seeing it going by a block away from my house on the 75. Istill live in Frankford but know I have to deal with the horrible M-4s and the A M Generals. Although I must admit that the M-4 performances have improved. They have discoveered the first 40 cars already have buckled floors. I think the Almond Joys should start to replace theM-4s. They certainly are in better shape!
Nothing will beat the looks of a Marmon or Brill trackless trolley, but for performance and comfort, the AM Generals take the prize.
At least the M-4s have A/C and their seats are more comfy! That's what's going to matter to people riding them. By the way, why did the M-3 never get A/C? Were they ever rebuilt? They sure never felt like they were.
The Budds were built for possible conversion to AC if the decision was ever made to do so. It wasn't, except for one of the 600-series single units (distinguished by the continuous "bump" in the roof rather than the four almonds). The cars never were rebuilt and never had a major overhaul and this is what has contributed to their somewhat early demise. The death knell started to some degree when the March '90 derailment at 30th St occurred and folks finally realized that the 30-year old fleet had never been through the shops in any serious manner.
Thats SEPTA for you with the poor maintanence.It was there fault they had the accident. They knew about the design flaw in the truck and actually had a few motors fall out in the yards but decided to do something after 5 people lost there lives.
Unfortunately? What's so unfortunate about having modern shiny rail cars, air conditioning, nice seats, desination signs, and automated announcements? Yes the M-4s have bugs in them and they took forever to get to Philly. But the bugs will be worked out, just like they were up in NYC with the R-44s, R-46s, and R-68s. They will be worked out. Who wants to sit in a 150-degree subway car in the summer? Not me.
Budd made some fine quality rail products. But they're not going to make any more. One day our Budd R-32s will have to go, although they will be around for maybe ten more years at least. They're that good. But the Almond Joys' time has come. You've got to let go. Get as many pictures as you can of them and enjoy their last few months of service. But it's time for them to go.
Why couldn't SEPTA spare a few million dollars to rebuild the Almond Joys?
I rode on a train that included #1151 on Friday, so we're up to at least 151 in service now. Last winter I was told that all 220 M-4s would be delivered by mid-summer 1999. Any idea how long they test each pair before putting it into revenue service? If it's a while, then maybe they are on schedule to actually meet that date...
John A.K.A.Budd Man
How can you determine by the number 1146 that there is only
146 of the M4's
Sign
A.K.A.
The Philly Phanatic!
The M-4s are numbered in the 1000 series with 1001 as the first car and 1220 will be the last car delivered. Right now we dont have all 152 ( 1152 being the highest # I rode today) cars. These cars were sent back for retrofitting. 1001,2,3,4,5,8. 1006 and 1007 are on the propety and yes they are mismatched. And lets not forget 1033-4 and 1077-78 were the cars involved in the collsion at 69th street terminal. One may be scrapped thats how bad it was damaged..
I just got the Transit Museum's new preview for members of the summer season. In the preview, there is a letter from the museum informing us that the museum will close for 6 months later in the year for an upgrade and reopen in 2000 to upgrade the facility, install new fire protection systems, etc., but it didn't sound like a major change in the layout of the museum, which I really think it can use. If they're gonna be closed for that long, they should make some major changes at least. But don't despair, they will extend all memberships for 6 additional months.
Hmmm...Perhaps my suggestion about us subway people organizing stuff ourselves came at the right time.
The Museum has two other stores, but no equip. there :-(
How about a D set at Times Sq on Shuttle track #3 ? Or a Hi-V set at Grand Central ? .... just a thought.
Mr t__:^)
The Triplexes won't fit on the shuttle. Or in the original Contract One tunnels, for that matter. The Lo-Vs would be a nice touch, though.
Absolutely right ! I typed before I thought about IRT vs. BMT/IND width & length of cars. It was kind of a joke because I dought the TA would put any of the old equip. in regular service. But then WHY NOT put the Lo-Vs on Shuttle track 4 while Brooklyn is shut down ? Lots of folks would see/ride it & the museum could plaster the inside with lots of adv. for Brooklyn or what ever. I hope they at least asked.
Mr t__:^)
But then they'd have to maintain it, and we all know how enthusiastically they would do that, being as it's old equipment. Almost no one around who could give it proper care. Doesn't mean we can't hope for a miracle, however:>)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not to mention vandalism. Unfortunately, not nearly every subway rider is a transit buff. Sad but true.
But they would all fit at the lower level of 9th Ave / 39th St in Brooklyn, AND there's extra capacity for some of the additional equipment sitting in CI Yard, AND there's a separate entrance (so museum fee could be collected), and I'd get to see the lower level of that station again.
Sounds like a win-win for everybody, but I'm not sure of the funding (sigh).
--Mark
I hope the MTA officials are listening!!!
Does anyone know the actual closure date of the Transit Museum?.I'll be in New York at the beginning of June and would like to visit it if it's still open
In the fall, according to the letter we received.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will be in the city during the last week of October. Hopefully, it will still be open.
At least it looks as if our beloved Redbirds will still be around then. You can bet I'm going to take a ride on them.
For your sake I hope it is open. They didn't give us an exact date, just that it would be in the fall and would be closed for six months.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now I understand how it would be hard for retired trains to operate all the time, but how about for at least one day. Let's say October 27th for example...the subway's 95th anniversary. I believe the TA did this for the 90th anniversary as well.-Nick
I think the point, that was raised before in this tread, is that MOST customers would react negitively to that dirty old train instead of their nice new R62 (they would know the number, it's mfg, etc.). If it was possible to keep it near one of the Museum annexes so they could bring people to it, then the complainers could be ignorred.
Mr t__:^)
How about the connecting platforms at Hoyt Schemerhorn? They are separate enough, can be isolated, and are close enough to the museum to allow switching.
True, but probably not securable enough for a short term.
Hmmm, running the Lo-Vs on the shuttle on Oct 27th, 1994, didn't cause a lot of complaints. The train was packed during rush hours.
Then again, I noticed not too many people getting off :)
--Mark
The beloved redbirds will be here for quite a long time, not a single R142/142a on the property yet. Nothing delivered for testing so we may presume that for passenger service it will be at least a year before anything hits the road.
Is there anyone else who is fearful that this will be a Manhattan Bridge 6 months?
Chip
Is there a full list of Silver Leaf publications? I think I have one or two from the 1970s.
On a similar topic, does anyone know when Electric Lines magazine (published by NJ International on Long Island) ceased publication? Two weeks ago, at a train show in Syracuse, I picked up a run of 28 copies, starting with the first issue and I'm curious about how many there were. The dates of the copies I have are November/December 1987 through May/June 1992.
Thanks,
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Ed -
I'll get my inventory sheet out tonight for Electric Lines and post here tomorrow - I don't have a complete set (missing five or six) so I made an inventory that I carry to shows in an effort to fill the holes. I think you are missing the final issue, that's all, but I'll have to check at home to be sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I seem to recall 1992 as the year Electic Lines ceased publication. I do not, however, know what exact issue was the last one.
I have MOST but not ALL of the issues.
Doug aka BMTman
According to my checklist, Electriclines published 29 issues beginning with the November-December 1987 issue through and including the July-August 1992 issue. I have copies of 24 of those issues, as well as several duplicates. In case anyone has any duplicates out there, I am looking for the following issues:
November-December 1987
January-February 1988
March-April 1988 (to upgrade a badly damaged copy)
July-August 1988
September-October 1989
July-August 1991
I also have duplicates of the following issues:
May-June 1988
November-December 1988
January-February 1989
March-April 1989
May-June 1989 (slightly damaged)
July-August 1989
May-June 1990
November-December 1990
January-February 1992
March-April 1992
May-June 1992
I would be glad to swap any of my duplicate copies for good copies of the ones I need. Reply via this forum and I'll contact you via email (sorry, I can't post my email here since I only have it at the office, but I can use it to reply to you).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the responses; I've managed to find out I'm missing only one Electriclines issue, the final one. With the New Electric Railway Journal apparently defunct, we've now lost two very fine publications.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Let us not forget the pre-mature end for PTJ (Passenger Train Journal). I looked forward to getting my issue every month. Out of all the publications I receive during the month, none have the worth the PTJ had for me.
Jim K.
Chicago
Ditto and although TNERJ was interesting, WITHOUT starting a brouhaha, I was unwilling to write a check to a foundation I had severe dislike for.
The New Electric Railway Journal is not apparently defunct, it is very definitely dead. With Richard Kunz's untimely passing last November 6, the life also went out of the magazine. When Free Congress spun it off, CityRail Ltd was really 3 1/2 people, Richard being 2 of them. A knowledgeable man and a good writer and editor. He was always prompt to reader inquires, including a few from Baltimore. My inquiries were always anwered, including a couple of phone calls from Chicago.
The power was just coming back on TNERJ when it was short-circuited.
Ed, my guess is that you purchased your 28 directly from the man who was responsible for its publication. I don't know the reasons for its demise, but the fellow and his wife have been working the train show circuit selling other products and have had several "complete" sets of Electriclines offered at $125. They don't have the final (July-August 1992) issue in that set, however, which makes me wonder if his involvement ended with the preceding issue and NJ International found that they couldn't keep it up without him. That is pure speculation on my part, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse raises an interesting possibility about the ElectricLines run I picked up. I'll have to check my canceled checks against the names in the editorial listing in the magazine (in my checkbook register, I had simply written, "ElectricLines," instead of the payee's name, not thinking I'd be checking anything except the dollar amount when the statement comes in).
It was a couple and they had other things for sale, but I paid less than half of the $125 price you mentioned. That might be because Midstate or Upstate NY isn't looked on as a hotbed of traction interest. When I get a chance, I'll investigate further.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Check with Image Replica and NJ International. Same guy who published Electriclines (and now plastic models of R 17, R22, M1 etc).
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
I'll be interested to know if my theory is correct. I'd probably also be willing to purchase a complete set at the price you paid just to fill in my gaps. The $125 price was far too steep, in my opinion, given the few issues I lack, and it wasn't significantly negotiable.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
TNERJ went belly-up? I thought they were just severely behind in getting issues out. The last one I received was a few months ago ....
--Mark
Yup, TNERJ is gone, both the print and electronic edition. As mentioned in my earlier post, Julian Wolinsky has started his own electronic rail zine... and it's pretty good.
[TNERJ went belly-up? I thought they were just severely behind in getting issues out. The last one I received was a few months ago ....]
Richard Kunz, the editor of TNERJ passed away suddenly in early November 1998. I was amazed because he had just been to a CERA meeting a month before and looked ok.
It has been said by many that Richard, although very talented with the pen for the cause of electric traction, was no businessman. Unfortunately, he didn't get to updating the "Chicago 'L" booklet that was to be published in October 1998.
Jim K.
Chicago
The last issue was July-August, 1992 (Vol. V, No. 4). Why did it stop publication? I thought it was pretty good, but then there was suddenly an announcement that it would cease publication, and, as I remember, there was no reimbursement for remaining subscriptions.
I recall that when Electric Lines ceased publication, subscribers were given an option to receive another of NJ International's books, a few of which dealt with Philly transit (which I already had).
I remember this because it was the only time I had received a notice/offer when a transit mag folded. Unfortunately, too often this has resulted from the death or incapacity of its publisher, and any unfufilled subscription money is simply lost. At least the Electric Lines folks offered you SOMETHING.
> Unfortunately, too often this has resulted from the death or
> incapacity of its publisher
I think the ERA is going to have/does have this same problem. The average age of its members is "gettin' up there". Maybe we should give some thought to compiling our own "real" publication. As a group here on SubTalk, it's evident we have the talent, that's for sure...
-Dave
Julian Wolinsky, a former editor of the TNERJ electronic edition, has started a new on-line zine called Rail Transit Online. The electronic zine is emailed to you monthly. For cost and subscription information, mailto:jwolinsky@mediaone.net
Although Ed and I already discussed this, the last issue that I have is the July/August 1992 issue. The cover features a picture of a Baltimore Transit Co. PCC.
I was told by the owner of the hobby shop where I used to purchase my magazines that that (JUL/AUG 1992) was the last issue published. If there are later issues I'd like to know about it.
Jim K.
Chicago
See http://rapidtransit.net for a start on Silver Leaf.
You're doing a great job, Paul; it's an interesting site with good links. I'm going to have to look for my old Silver Leaf stuff--I know I have (had?) at least one booklet, printed in sepia on glossy paper.
Thanks much.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Main St. Flushing used to be the center of my subway world when, after alighting from a ride from one end of the Q15 to the other, I would descend the steps outside Woolworth's, pay my fare, and head off. I noticed posters on the walls in several stations today, as I made my way from LGA in to the city via the Q33 and #7, indicating that people, depending on what bus line they boarded at Main St., should ride the 7 Line in the middle or front cars.
Could somebody please give me an idea on what is where at the intersection of Main and Roosevelt. Where do the various lines stop? Where are the subway exits? Is Nedicks still there? (Not!!!!)
Those who have been on this site a while know that I am not a subway neophyte, so hopefully my past contributions have made me worthy of a description of what has happened in Flushing.
And, by the way (to Hank Eisenstein), thanks very much. You are an honest man, indeed.
Queens Surface Corp, one of the "private" bus companies goes there. You could catch the Q25 or Q65 and ride right by our depot :-)
Also our Q66, Q34 & QBX-1 (to Co-op City) goes there. If you'll prefer a blue stripe coach look for the Q12, 14, 15, 17, 27, 44 & 48. Or N20 or N21 if you're headed out on the Island.
Nedicks & Woolworth are gone as is Caldor, but the area is very busy & it helps to read Chinese, Korean or Japanese. The Main Street station has been completely redone. It has that open look.
Mr t__:^)
I can't describe precisely where the exits/entrances are, though I can tell you that the area is now known as little Chinatown or little Asia.
--Mark
The new entrances are a half block east of Main Street on Roosevelt Ave. You go down a long escalator, and the token booth/fare control is on the same level as the platform. That would get in the way of a further eastbound extension...
So you've done a Field Trip out there in between Traffic & Weather !
Yes, that entrance was do up real nice. From the Turnstile you can easily walk to which ever track has the next train & the ceiling is very high.
Mr t__:^)
There are approximately 8 and a half minutes between traffic and weather reports on WCBS. One can do a LOT of things in 8-1/2 minutes (include going down 16 floors, out to the coffee cart, and back up). But a field trip to Main Street on the (7) is not one of them. Perhaps if they brought back the SuperExpress and fixed the field shunts...
I guess I have to include the 7 on one of my subway trips this summer..........
Because it's elavated as soon as it's comes out of the East River tunnel (the Steinway) you get lots of great photo opps. It's also elavated as it passes Shea etc.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, so you get a good view of the Mets losing again :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse (a Philly Phanatic and closet Braves fan)
NO BRAVES FANS ALLOWED!
Let's Go METS!
-Hank :)
It's good to hear that the Flushing project is finally completed. I have waited many a time on the Roosevelt Avenue side of Stern's for the Q12/Northern Blvd. to Glenwood Street/City Line while visiting relatives in Queens. My question is, has two-way traffic been restored on Roosevelt between Main and Union?
Since I live in San Francisco, the Downtown Flushing area is very reminiscent of Baghdad by the Bay with its Asian flavor with remanants of neighborhood institutions still maintained by the neighborhood's previousily predominant ethnicities. Growing up in the "Avenues" of San Franciscco's Sunset and Richmond Districts makes Flushing a very familiar landscape. The two best Dim Sum eateries I have found in the western world are at Clement and 7th (San Francisco) and Main between Kissena and Roosevelt.
While I the aspects of Chinese and asian cultures of Flushing very much, I do think it's getting abit run-down. There is a major garbage problem there, lots of loose garbage blowing around. The streets are in horrible shape, and the permenent closure of Caldor is a sad looking sight indeed. And I think the bus stops could be better, the ones in Manhattan have those nice new signs. Also alot of rowdy kids are hanging out there lately.
I think Chinatown in Manhattan is much nicer if you want to see Chinese culture. Main street and Kissena south of LIRR, Roosevelt avenue west of Main street are the nicest areas of Flushing, the interesection of Main and Roosevelt is just horrible, especially by that empty Caldor. You've got traffic jams, bus fumes from all those diesels, and the garbage and fifth everywhere. I know this is a bit off topic, but why is Guilianni seem to only address quality of life concerns such as garbage only for Manhattan. After all, there's alot more to NYC than Manhattan, and all five boroughs should be clean and safe.
Yes, the garbage situation is bad. And I think you are right in placing the blame on city government; what do they care about largely immigrant downtown Flushing, especially since whatever political weight the immigrant community might have is drowned out by sharing a district with the wealthier, more conservative, more-likely-to-have- citizenship suburban sections of Flushing and Whitestone.
And what's most infuriating is to hear people blame the Chinese, Koreans, Indians, etc for the filth when it's plain that the cause is that the area was never meant to be a restaurant district, and lacks back alleys, dumpsters, etc., and the restaurant trash has to go *somewhere*. I don't think anyone would want to do away with the proliferation of restaurants and fruit stands that has brought so much vitality to Flushing, especially with the big chain stores closing down.
So, to bring this post back on-topic, I used to walk home past those heaps of trash and fantasize about using some of the subway gratings on Roosevelt to install recessed dumpters in the sidewalk. I guess necessity is the mother of invention, but I doubt this or any other solution will be implented any time soon...
[Yes, the garbage situation is bad. And I think you are right in placing the blame on city government; what do they care about largely immigrant downtown Flushing ...
And what's most infuriating is to hear people blame the Chinese, Koreans, Indians, etc]
I'm going to have to take exception to this. I go to Main Street frequently ... drove down Northern Blvd after lunch today (with the top down on my conv) & I don't have the attitude that Main Street is THAT dirty. It's a very busy place, and a lot of the folks are oriental, but this white guy just blends in with them. I park my car on the street (mid-day when I'm doing some business with the friendly Station Agent) and don't fear that my car will be stolen. Granted it's not Park Avenue & I've never seen a Sanation worker around, but the place isn't that bad ... maybe I should take off my sun glasses (joke).
Mr t__:^)
Don't get me wrong, I love Flushing, and during the day there's no problem, really, except for the occasional overflowing trashcan, I just wish someone in power cared enough to find a solution for all the restaurant/grocery trash that gets piled sometimes head-high from around 6-7pm on. This white guy too, feels very at home on Main St :)
It's just disappointing to see the pattern of minority neighborhoods getting the shaft with city services continuing.
(ok, no more off-topic posts for me, I promise)
While I like the aspects of Chinese and asian cultures of Flushing very much, I do think it's getting abit run-down. There is a major garbage problem there, lots of loose garbage blowing around. The streets are in horrible shape, and the permenent closure of Caldor is a sad looking sight indeed. And I think the bus stops could be better, the ones in Manhattan have those nice new signs. Also alot of rowdy kids are hanging out there lately.
I think Chinatown in Manhattan is much nicer if you want to see Chinese culture. Main street and Kissena south of LIRR, Roosevelt avenue west of Main street are the nicest areas of Flushing, the interesection of Main and Roosevelt is just horrible, especially by that empty Caldor. You've got traffic jams, bus fumes from all those diesels, and the garbage and fifth everywhere. I know this is a bit off topic, but why is Guilianni seem to only address quality of life concerns such as garbage only for Manhattan. After all, there's alot more to NYC than Manhattan, and all five boroughs should be clean and safe.
1969 was a very good year. The Mets swept the Braves in the Divisional Playoffs. Nolan Ryan (yes, THAT Nolan Ryan) came on in relief of Gary Gentry in Game 3 and nailed down the pennant. OK, Hank Aaron homered in each game. Cub fans don't even want to talk about 1969.
I remember it well.
So do I. An historical fluke, I assure you :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heck, you can even catch a slice of the action from the fare-paid area out in right field. Of course, you can only see about 1/3 of the field...
More than you can currently see at Yankee Stadium. You can also watch the Mets game from the fare-paid area.
-Hank
Well Im not an out of towner. Im just away at school. Im a Brooklynite. Been on the 7 many times. Im going now to observe the station....
You'd have my vote on those field shunts in a second.
And the rest of the station was spiffed up some too, including new white wall tile - no they did NOT cover over the tablets nor did they change the frieze - they cleaned the heck out of them, allowing the original colors of blue-violet, indigo, maroon, brick red, light blue, parchment tan, terra-cotta brown, white and yellow to show through as if new. And they scrubbed the little yellow wings and the home-plate-shaped "M" icons. Squire J.Vickers would be very pleased at the careful restoration of his work,.
Wayne
This makes me regret even more leaving NY at the end of last August. I never got to see the result of all that construction. I should be able to get my train fix with the PCC's here in SF, but I never get downtown. Out where I live its nothing but Diesel articulated buses that look like they've been through a war and seem to get abducted by aliens whenever you need to get somewhere in a hurry.
If I have time, maybe I can get some pictures of the extension of the F-line that they're building now, & scan & send them in.
So the new escalators go down to the platform level? This is great; I worry about my wife's grandma on the stairs with the crowds in that station.
P.S.- It's such a shame that Woolworth's & Caldor closed... I'm sure those two stores made heaps of money with the location, but the freakin' national chains pulled them down. My wife remembers when she was little her grandma would take her to the Woolworth's lunch counter as a treat every month when she would get her social security.
What F train extension that they are building?
The "F" line he is referring to is a Muni Transit line in his home town - San Francisco.
Wayne
The F line in San Francisco runs on Market St. using all those refurbished secondhand PCCs. Each on is done up in a different paint scheme representing US cities which had PCCs at one time or another. I'm not sure which end is being extended.
Woolworths and Caldors WERE national chains. Unfortunately, they could not cut costs as well as Kmart, Target, and Walmart could; over-expansion also helped to kill them off. Caldor's Staten Island location was accessible easily only if you owned a car, and was well away from the established shopping areas. With 2 Kmarts easily accessible by transit and in major shopping districts, is there any doubt to why the shopping plaza where Caldor was located is now empty except for a Modells? (It also was never more than 50% occupied)
-Hank
First, sorry Dave for continuing this thread.
- I have some knowledge that part of the reason Caldor went down was due to blood sucking at the top (they were sucking the life out of the company & not putting anything back).
- Woolworth only needed to remake itself into a CVS drug store. If you've ever been in one it looks like a Woolworth, but WITH drugs and withOUT a lunch counter.
- I hope they get someone to fill that big space at Main & Roosevelt.
Mr t__:^)
Where can I get subway model cars? Is there a website for this type of transaction?
Hey 3trainmike go to Subway Model Cars .
Peace out Justin2669 (a.k.a. Mean DJ)
Also go to Red Caboose at 23 West 45st between 5th ave and 6th ave. They have N and Ho Subway Cars. I alway go there to buy thing and they have N scale R62 Subway Cars with three cars set cost $140 also N scale R21 Subway Cars with three cars set cost $300 w/o power. With power will cost $235 each. By the way Store hour is 11am to 7pm from Monday to Saturday and Sunday is close.
Peace Out Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
I will go there next Friday when I return to the city. I am looking forward to buy R62A car sets. Do you know if they take all major credit cards?
They take Major credit cards and the number for the store is 1-212-575-0155 also the have fax number is 1-212-575-0272.
Peace out Justin2669 (a.k.a Mean DJ)
Thanks for the info Stainless........
3TM
Also do you have the Red Caboose phone number? Can you call and reserve an order?
In what scale?
Regular. I do not want any power ones. Not yet at least....... Just something to put on my dresser..........
Hi 3Train Mike,
Take Mark's advice it is better for you to purchase subway cars at the East Penn Show than the high prices at the Red Caboose. But in any event this is only a suggestion and the telephone number is 212 575-0155 also there is a website that deals primarily with subway models.
D-Train
Sorry I wont be able to attend. That thing called finals.......
Well, there's always the Fall Trolley Extravaganza usually held sometime in September ... no finals then :)
--Mark
That is true, but one problem.........Ill be back in school again.
Well, the R-38s are a favorite of mine, so I MUST put some dough aside and purchase a set.
To pay for those models, I guess this means some of you guys might see me peddling some batteries, yo-yos and other trinkets on the A line pretty soon ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Or M&M's and doublemint gum on the 4 line in the Bx.........
Well, don't forget to hit some passengers over the head with that squeaky plastic hammer ;-)
--Mark
And risk the possibility of machine-gun fire from some teenagers??? Not on your life.
I'll stick with peddling and panhandling, thank you very much. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
The Fall Trolley Extravaganza will be held earlier than usual this year - it will be at the Holiday Inn in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, on 27-28 August 1999. It is being co-sponsored by MTS Imports and the East Penn Traction Club, as usual.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not sure where you are, but this coming weekend (May 1st) is the East Penn Trolley Meet in Pennsauken, NJ. Subway / trolley cars in various scales for display and purchase. I'm sure you'd do better pricewise at this show than you would at the Red Caboose.
Here's info on the show.
--Mark
The nickle plated brass R-32, and R-38 from MTS Imports all have been reserved. They are accepting reservation. Cars are suppose to arrive from Korea soon. I already reserved a set for myself.
BTW These are limited models, over $650 for each two car set. Way beyond the price for someone just starting.
Phil Hom
ETA of these units, last I heard, is June.
--Mark
I need some primary source documents on the LA railway system. I wanted to compare LA's sytem with NY's. I was wondering if it would be possible for me to interview one of you guys about NY's railway sytem--stuff like that which would help me to answer the following question: How has the growth of technology affected the railway sytem in LA along with the people that use it. I would appreciate it. (it's 4 a research paper)--Please e-mail me back ASAP--B4 Wed., 4/28 preferably. Thanks a bunch. --11th grader @ The California Academy of MAthematics and Science
I have heard that actor George Takei -- Lt. Sulu on the old "Star Trek" series -- was one of those instrumental in getting LA its subway system. I believe he was an Alderman (aka Councilman?) on the Southern Cal Rapid Transit District (or some political group with a name like that).
Does anyone know the particulars on Mr. Takei's involvement?
Thanks, Doug aka BMTman
George takei WAS on the board of directors of SCRTD about 10-15 years ago. Other than that, I can't say much about his involvement, I just don't know.
Anyone knows who owns that old SEPTA car in the lot on 4th Avenue off of Union Street in Brooklyn??? What's the story with that??? How did they get it there???
My guess would be that it's owned by the Brooklyn Trolley folks - I know that they own at least one ex-Philadelphia PCC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We have ex-SEPTA PCC #2709 at the Seashore Trolley Museum . It is part of our operating fleet for public tours. Come ride it this summer!
You've also got one of the P&W/Septa bullet cars, don't forget!
-Dave
Right you are Dave, but they're a (ahem) static exhibit. They don't run. PCC 2709 does *grin*.
If people from SubTalk only went to the trolley museums for the stuff that runs it would be a real short visit :-)
-Dave
Speaking of which, Todd, I'm up in Hartford for the summer - with my bike! So I can vist you up in Maine at least one weekend in may - july to see that MP-54!! :) (yeah, I've already been to Warehouse Point guys :)
Great news, Phil! Maybe you can join, become the program sponsor, and lead the effort to fix it up! WE NEED VOLUNTEERS to help restore and maintain our collection.
A few years ago I took a picture of the MP-54 next to the A-train next to TARS 631 (too bad I couldn't get Brooklyn semi-convertible trolley 4547 dug out in time). If I can find it, I'll post it.
Isn't this kinda like the bullets that everyone's been screaming about?
-Hank
Hank asked, after I posted a message with two inline images,
> Isn't this kinda like the bullets that everyone's been screaming
> about?
Well, maybe you're right. Is occasional use of an inline image to illustrate a particular point or thing under discussion just as bad as using the bullets in every single circumstance when a simple text letter/number would do?
So the question is: should all inline images be banned from SubTalk? Send your votes to me in email. (I don't think we need to rehash this on the board.)
-Dave
Wish I could. Unfortunately, between my schedule, my wife's schedule, and our children's schedule, it doesn't look very promising. Maybe next spring!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We've had one guess and seven non-answers to Chris C's question about the SEPTA car in Brooklyn. I'm interested in the answer to the question. Could someone answer it or are we next going to get a list of the ex-SEPTA cars in San Francisco?
Grumpily,
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Thank you Ed, I had just about given up on these jokers.
I actually asked about this a couple of months ago. Luckily, the owners painted their web address on the building next door to the trolley, so I could find out more information.
It's apparently owned by some group calling itself The Brooklyn Lyceum, which owns the aforementioned building next door -- a former public bath house. They're offering tours of trolley as part of paid tours of all of their facilities, along with a host of other services (from hosting web sites to batting cages) The web site says they intend to restore the trolley.
We shall see. It looks to be in pretty rough shape. There are very few windows remaining. Their site, www.gowanus.com, has a couple of pictures.
Thanks!
Isn't that the organization run by the guy who found the Lost Atlantic Ave. Tunnel?. He mentioned during the tour of trying to get the trolleys running in the area with the possibility of using the tunnel
Yes, that sounds familiar. I was taking to him in the old tunnel under Atlantic one time and he seemed to have some kind of investment intrest in Redhook and thus wanted some kind of trolly connection.
As posted in another divergent piece of this thread, the trolley doesn't belong to the same group as is planning to run trolleys along the Red Hook waterfront (as I had incorrectly surmised). Check back to that thread for more details and their website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On SEPTAs MFSE they use a different third rail and track gauge then other cties. The track gauge I understand why they used that so that steam railroad could use the EL for freight movement. But the third rail they used is simiar to the NYC commuter lines third rail.When SEPTA rebuilt the EL could it have been possible to standard gauge the track and by using the normal third rail that Chicago NYC boston Etc uses. All this could have been done before the M-4s came into service. That way when they have no more of my belove ALMOND JOYS they could use some of the ex NYCTA REDBIRDS are cars from Chicago to fill in for disastrous M-4 car order. The REDBIRDS are probably better then the M-4s in terms of reliability and are better built.
The broadgauge track on the MFSE line was originally so that the trackage could be used by the cars of the Phila. and Westchester Traction Co.'s passenger cars to center city, not for freight service. This arrangement never took place, but the gauge was kept nonetheless
Getting your cities mixed up there... the "W" in P&W was "Western". :) Seriously though, does the ex-P&W line (Norristown) still have the broader gauge? It seems like it would still be a good idea to thru-route the El to the Norristown line.
-Dave
Sorry, but the W I referred to was the Phila and Westchester Traction Co., later Red Arrow. The P&W never did and does not now use broad gauge. It was to be the first leg of a trans-continental railroad. Another reason the MFSE went to broadgauge was to prevent this railroad from gaining the rights to operate over its trackage.
The track gauge on the MFSE has nothing to do with railroads using the Elevated, but the fact that the Market Street Subway-Elevated was built by PRT - The Philadelphia Rapid Transit Company. Since PRT was firstly a streetcar company, the gauge was made the same so that streetcar work equipment could be used during the construction. The Frankford elevated was projected and built by the City to connect with the Market line, thus the same 5'2 1/2" gauge was used. The Broad Street Subway way built to BRT (Brooklyn) standards, so standard gauge was used there.
Surely you have heard the Philadelphia refrain "Market is broad and Broad is standard."
The third rail used on the MSFE is Wilgis-Sprague third rail, originally developed for the New York Central eletricifcation of the Grand Central Trerminal and to comply with a New York law forbidding the operation of steam engines in the Park Avenue tunnels. The third rail style was developed in 1903 and was the major type available in 1904 when the plans for the Market Street line was being planned.
I read that the P&W wanted to build a parallel elevated line into Center City and that the city gov't was ready to let them do it because the PRT was dragging its feet on the MFSE project. Too bad there weren't more wide north-south or east-west streets in Philly or there might have been more subway and elevated lines built there and service might have been more extensive in Philly today.
Yes, the P & W threatened to build an el less than 1/2 block south of the Market St line. This was allegedly just talk but it was serious enough to get the P & W into PRT's 69th St Terminal. A "temporary" terminal for the P & W was crafted in 1907. In 1962, the permanent one (the current version) replaced the temporary setup.
Bob----I'm not able to post messagesfor the past 2 days. I believe my little brother has something to do with it. He uses the name Joker and he told me he wrote something to someone with the name bob(i'm hoping you). Please disregard whatever he wrote. I tried to find his message but I'm sure it was erased and I know that this bulletin board doesn't accept that nonsense. Please allow me to post messages again. I'm using a different email address for now. Thanks!---Anthony
OK, I read. No, I didn't get any messages from "Joker". I'll keep my eyes peeled, though.
You are correct, Dan, with one minor note - the track gauge is 5' 2 1/4".
Well to re-track the whole system it would need to be shut down for a few years which, in SEPTA's situation, would have killed the line. We already lost 24 hour service while they shut it at nights to re-build the Frankford Ave Section.
I know there are bugs in the M-4s but I just don't get this obsession with the Almond Joys. I grew up in Oxford Circle - about a 10 to 15 minute walk from Bridge&Pratt. Which means I basically grew up on the Almond Joys. I am not sorry to see them go. They are cold in the winter, hot in the summer (you have to commute on them 5 days a week, packed, wearing business clothes in 90+ heat to truly understand how hot). You feel every scratch on the rails, which made it feel like a rollercoaster ride before they replaced the Frankford section.
I've had a few opportunities to ride the M-4s and they are MUCH more comfortable than the Almond Joys. Personally, I just wish they had started the replacement sooner.
There not as hot as everyone thinks they are. I have to commute on them everyday from the Art Museum in the heat. PEOPLE ARE JUST SPOILED NOW WITH AIR CONDITIONING. In the old days there was no air conditioning. When people talk about the almond joys I think they talk about there speed the rush of the cold air through the front window and there looks. I personally like the Almond Joys But must admit they werent the smoothest riding but wwere reliable cars and got you where you wanted to go quick. unlike the M-4 L cars.
What looks? The Almond Joys were scary looking! And they WERE very hot and sticky to ride in. Maybe if you were in the first car they weren't so bad. But what about the other five cars? I won't be sorry to see them go either.
Who asked you they were more modern looking for there day then the stuff ordered in NYC in the 50-60. They were stil having heavy built slow rapid transit car.
Hey, take it easy. There's no need to snap here. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and mine is that the Almond Joys were kind of scary-looking. All right, scary might have been a little strong. But you responding to me with "Who asked you?" is unnecessary.
You do have a point. I do agree that the Almond Joys are more modern-looking than the Redbirds of the 50s and 60s in NYC. But the Redbirds ended up being more modern when they were rebuilt with a working (most of the time!) PA system, A/C, and their interiors were repainted in the current red/cream scheme. Now imagine how great the Almond Joys would have been if they had A/C, a PA system, and a more modern-looking interior to go with that exterior.
I defintely thought the four vents sticking out of the roofs of the cars was unusual, having never seen anything like it before. The square window on the storm doors like that on our R-21/22 also looked unusual and out of place on a subway/el car with rounded doorways and windows. Now the circular window used on the R-15/16/17...that would have fit in perfectly on the Almond Joys.
NYC and Chicago do not use the same type of third rail. This was discussed here recently. Neither is there a standard type of third rail for the various commuter lines into NYC. Metro-North uses "underrunning" third rail, contacted only from the bottom, while the LIRR uses "overrunning" third rail (contacted on top but equipped with wooden coverboards) similar to the NYC subways. Chicago uses completely exposed third rails. There doesn't seem to be any "standard" type.
On what basis do you assert that the M-4s are failures? Geez! The fact is, the vast majority of riders want air conditioning and smooth rides above just about any other feature. I have not heard about their "reliability problems."
Sometimes railfans _can_ be a bit much (speaking as one). They are _still_ whining about the name "Acela" over on the usenet. It may not be a great name but the fact is that many railfans are _offended_ by the use of a name which invokes no rail imagery and pays no tribute to history. The fact that this was deliberate makes them even angrier. Imagine an airline naming itself the "Biplane Express." Sometimes I think that is what would make some of the buffs happy. What would the reaction on Subtalk have been if this forum had existed when the wooden cars were pulled out of the subways?
Ok, rant over. Sorry about that John, I just get tired of nostalgic criticism of modern things in this area!
On the subject of gauge, I am going to add to the confusion here. I am pretty sure the broad gauge was forced on the PTC by the city (or state?) to make sure that the el could not connect with any outside rail system and thus become a competitor for the PRR bringing passengers into the system. For more knowledgeble replies to this, post your questions about the gauge on phl.transit (you can do this at www.dejanews.com)
When you have to ride the line as much as I do and the trains constantly breaks down youll be wishing that they didnt scrap the old reliable cars.
I dont even want to hear people complaining about me complain the M-4 cars. All I ever hear about is peope complaining about the R 68s or how cheaply built the r142 are.This is a group about rapid transit and Im telling it as it is down here in Philly. Look at all the cars out of service on the M4s fleet. They sent 6 back because they wont trainline with the other cars.And another 2 cars will probably be scrapped because they collided into each other because the one trains brakes would not grab. I think I have a right to show my disgust at the new cars, why all the rest of Philadelphia and SEPTA is. I wouldnt mine them so bad if they actually worked rightI have friends in high positions in SEPTA where I get the inside scope o everything. Maybe if you openyour ears you would hear about problems with them. Im not trying to start a war on here.And yes I do appreciate the air conditioning, its aboout the ony thing on them that actually work right
Only 45 1959/62 tube stock sets (set= 1 x 4 car 1 x 3 car operating together) remain in use with 35 of the "new" 1995 stock sets (set= 2 x 3car operating together) being in use daily.
I am led to believe that guards displaced by the arrival of new stock will transfer to other duties week commencing 10th May 1999 as their
is currently a backlog of such staff waiting to go through the promotion channels to become Train Operators.
We are now into the final few months for the 1959/62 stock...ride
it whilst you can!!
.
Regards
Rob
Are the 1995 stock sets longer than the 1959/62 sets? It seems that the new sets are operating one carriage shorter than the old ones. How does this affect loading times and capacity issues on the Northern line?
1995 stock cars are slightly longer so a 6 car set (2 x 3car) is just short of the length of a 1959/62 7 car set (1x 4 car+1 x 3 car).
Loading times about the same at present although the large gap between
the middle of the units where the 4 car and 3 car couple (middle cabs)is not found on the new stock , so actually 2 more doorways are available on 95 stock !!......
Rob :^)
1.) Having found Al Mankoff's excellent trolley page at http://www.almankoff.com/trolleya.htm , I'm wondering what's happened to the restored Newark compromise roof car at that place in Ringoes, as it was suggested in the piece (written in '97) that the car had fallen into neglect.
2.) Can anyone update me on the introduction of Newark's new subway cars? I don't want to miss the last ride on the old PCCs.
See this URL for a bief but interesting update of Maglev technology.
http://www.latimes.com/HOME/BUSINESS/CUTTING/t000037410.2.html
Hi my name is Bob Hughes and Im sure alot of you out there know me. I live in Philadelphia and work for SEPTA at the Elmwood Carhouse as a supervisor. Im also sure you know I am a member of the Seashore Trolley Museum. The museum has purchased off SEPTA 1 Almond Joy car 618. SEPTA did a marvelous job to rebuild the car for us. I dont want the Almond Joys to go the way of the old MFSE cars or many of the car classes that ran in Chicago or New York or many other places. Even though the car has been purchase I still need money to transport over the highway to Kennibunkport Maine. A rather large sum of money. I need help. I would like to know if anyone reading could contribute money to help preserve a piece of Americana, when equipment was built in America and was of good Quility. The amount of money can be large or small, any little bit helps.
Seashore Trolley Museum
P.O. Box a
Kennibunkport Maine, 04046
Payable to the Seashore Trolley Museum
Attn: 618 Fund
All moneys would go to the 618 fund.
The trolley museum is a 501c Tax Deductable.
P.S.
The car will be deadheading from Bridge Street to 69th Street Yard for minor work before it can shipped off to Maine tomorrow after the morning rush. They will load the car onto the flatbed trailor sometime on Monday to go to Maine. Hint Hint For anyone who wants to take pictures.
Again Thank you for any help That the Museum or Myself may recieve.
Just to let you know that Bob Hughes' note is right on target! He is the Chief Instructor at Seashore (and thus my "boss"). Bob arranged for (and financially supported) the move of SEPTA PCC 2709 previously discussed here. For those of you that are members of the NYDivision of the ERA, you'll receive a note about 618 in your next mailing. So thanks in advance for helping if you are interested.
Hello
Is anyone going on Friday to the meet? Will there be many of the displays and dealers, or do most show up on Saturday? What is the admission for both days?
I'm coming from Commack, Long Island, how long will it take to get there?
Hope to find a WP Car BMT Standard (powered or non, doesn't matter) down there.
Thanks, "Gimme dem old time subway cars" Mike H
Hi Mike,
Probably your best bet is to go on Saturday from 9 to 5 when the dealers are selling their products. Many of the Tri-state dealers are going to be present on Saturday. You should have no problem securing a BMT standard car as long as you are willing to paid the price. The admission price is 20.00. Time distance from Commack to South Jersey should be about 2 hours. Hope to see you on Saturday!
D-Train
An article in today's Boston Globe discloses that there are rumblings in the Massachusetts State House about increasing fares on the Boston MBTA. Currently, the base subway fare is $0.85 and base bus fare $0.60; base commuter rail fares range from $2.00 to $4.75 each way depending on distance. These are among the least expensive anywhere.
The article states that the MBTA generates only 20% of its budget through revenue derived from fares, advertising, and parking, compared to an average of 40% at comparible transit systems around the country. The rest of the MBTA's budget - $986 million - comes from municipal assessments from the 79 cities and towns served by the MBTA, and direct state subsidies.
Transit is a public service just like police, fire, garbage etc.
It quit being a business when the cities would not let the systems raise fares while building infrastructure to operate cars.
The transit user fee is a local political decision but is a regressive tax on transit dependent riders and does not encourage people to get out of their cars.
The unlimited ride passes have been very popular and have increased ridership where they are priced reasonabley. Think how effectice transit could be without a fare at all.
Well said, Total agreement!!!
There was a very interesting article in Tue. Newsday by Al Baker.
As many of you may know Nassau County is having a financial problem. Well, the new Dual Mode sets are on their way & Nassau has to kick in a portion of the purchase price (they also kick in part of the subsidy for LI Bus). Tom Gulotta, the County Exec. has just worked out a deal where the MTA will give Tom $70M now & loan them $140M more. In the next 25 years they'll pay it back. With interest it'll cost the County an extra $100M. Tom's only problem is if he uses the whole $70M to plug holes in his budget, he'll still owe $50M for the new train sets.
Today Tom will be in Manhattan today hopping the MTA board approves this.
Maybe they should have done a little more maint. on those FA-2s & FL-9s ? Oh they look in real bad shape :-(
Mr t__:^)
(MTA loaning money to Nassau) My guess is that this is one of those loans that will never get paid back. Might as well cancel the R142 order right now. It's an outrage, really, diverting transit money from the region to a corrupt political machine.
It's just like New York on the way to bankrupcy under Lindsey. I think the answer is a financial control board for Nassau. It's ridiculous that they are in the shape they are in. Lets stop it before it gets any worse, rather than letting it go on until Long Island goes down the tubes.
Whoever at the MTA came up with the idea of lending $$ to Nassau County is a dope of world-class proportions. It would have been more sensible to call it a *gift* as that's what it's going to be.
Actually, in a way it's not really fair that Nassau has to kick in some of the cost of buying the dual-mode white elephants, er, locomotives (though it's probably part of the MTA charter). Their impact is going to be much more significant in Suffolk County. Thousands of Suffolk County riders who live much closer to the Pt. Jefferson and Montauk lines drive through heavy traffic to Ronkonkoma, fighting for scarce parking and wedging themselves into jammed electric trains, all because they're too lazy to drag their suit-covered posteriors ten feet across the platform at Jamaica/Huntington/Babylon to change trains. Dual-modes will allow through running from diesel territory into Penn Station and therefore should take some of the pressure off Ronkonkoma. But that means little or nothing to Nassau County. Oyster Bay is the only diesel line in Nassau, and for the most part its riders don't have other options.
Just a quick question. Do you or have you changed trains regularly at
Jamaica or Huntington or Babylon? Because if you haven't don't make nasty comments about being lazy or dragging our rear ends accross the platform. If commuter A pays $200 a month PLUS his subway fare and gets one train service into Manhattan and commuter B pays his $200 for his service why should he have to change trains because of where he lives.
[Just a quick question. Do you or have you changed trains regularly at
Jamaica or Huntington or Babylon? Because if you haven't don't make nasty comments about being lazy or dragging our rear ends accross the platform. If commuter A pays $200 a month PLUS his subway fare and gets one train service into Manhattan and commuter B pays his $200 for his service why should he have to change trains because of where he lives.]
I am quite used to changing trains - in fact, I usually change twice per trip. When I travel from my home station of Medford (3-4 times per week), which is on the Greenport line, I have to change at Ronkonkoma in all instances. In the morning, the next train out is the 6:57 to Brooklyn*, which requires a second change, at Jamaica. Evenings, I try to get whenever possible the 5:23 to Long Beach, changing to a Ronkonkoma train at Jamaica, with of course a second change at Ronkonkoma. Once or twice a week I travel from Patchogue (the tickets are interchangeable), and have to change once per trip, usually at Jamaica, sometimes at Babylon.
I find train changing such a minimal inconvenience as to be barely worth discussion. In fact, the point often overlooked is that diesel trains (especially the new bilevels) are far more pleasant that electrics. That's because they're generally much less crowded, and you've got a good chance of sitting next to the perfect seatmate ... an empty seat! And the seats on the bilevels are actually designed for normal human beings, namely ones who aren't built like Calixta Flockhart or Starvin' Marvin the Ethernopian. In contrast, on an electric train to Ronkonkoma or Babylon, you're almost certain to be wedged next to someone for most or all of the trip. Not for me, thank you very much.
* = when the Greenport Shuttle arrives at Ronkonkoma in the morning, about 6:55, there's always a large number of people waiting in those idiotic cows-at-the-slaughterhouse half moons for the next Penn Station train, which doesn't leave until 7:05. They're too bovinely stupid to realize that if they hopped on the 6:57 to Brooklyn, they'd (1) be spared eight minutes of waiting on the platform; (2) be on a train that doesn't get as crowded for a few stops; and (3) with the Jamaica change, arrive at Penn Station a couple minutes *earlier* than if they took the 7:05 express!
Have to disagree. A one seat ride is an amenity for those with a long trip. It would be great for the Oyster Bay line. I don't mind offering a premium service for those who pay a premium fare, since I have a shorter trip. I do mind the Nassau County machine trying to grab my money to pay for it.
It really blows my mind. How can a county with high taxes, high incomes, and less than four percent unemployment explain a massive budget deficit? The worst part is, all the public employees in NYC are demanding parity with Nassau. I think it needs to be a bigger story what will happen if they get it.
[It really blows my mind. How can a county with high taxes, high incomes, and less than four percent unemployment explain a massive budget deficit? The worst part is, all the public employees in NYC are demanding parity with Nassau. I think it needs to be a bigger story what will happen if they get it.]
If fiscal mismangement is bad enough, and it sure is bad enough in Nassau, it'll overcome any economic advantages you might name. And don't expect things to get any better - an arbitrator has just ordered substantial raises for the county police (who already are among the best-paid cops in the United States, well ahead of the NYPD).
(Don't expect things to get better).
I guess the only good news is that Nassau County accouts for, at most, one-third of the local government of Nassau County, while New York City is the whole thing in New York City. The state runs the LIRR, state parks, and some of the roads, then you have towns, villages, and school districts. Are the towns and school districts having budget problems too? And what about the LIRR -- how much of that MTA surplus is being generated by the TA?
One thing is for sure, the TA is moving more people with a lot less rush hour service. If subway ridership breaks 1.2 billion, it will be the highest since Lindsay wrecked the system in the 1960s. The subway map shows a low more rush hour service back then, and the 1969 plan describes a lot more rush hour crowding as well. De-peaking is the real story of the financial improvement of the TA.
< One thing is for sure, the TA is moving more people with a lot less rush hour service. If subway ridership breaks 1.2 billion, it will be the highest since Lindsay wrecked the system in the 1960s. The subway map shows a low more rush hour service back then, and the 1969 plan describes a lot more rush hour crowding as well. De-peaking is the real story of the financial improvement of the TA >
I blame Lindsay for many things, but the system was going down the tubes (deferred maintenace, service cuts, bad attitude) long before he started working his special magic. The sacrosanct 15 cent fare came in with the TA in 1953 and holding that fare in inflationary times was hell on the system. Serious service cuts really got rolling by 1958. I could site other issues going at least back to decisions made around the time of Unification in 1940.
[One thing is for sure, the TA is moving more people with a lot less rush hour service. If subway ridership breaks 1.2 billion, it will be the highest since Lindsay wrecked the system in the 1960s. The subway map shows a low more rush hour service back then, and the 1969 plan describes a lot more rush hour crowding as well. De-peaking is the real story of the financial improvement of the TA.]
I'm not sure I follow what "de-peaking" really means. Given that there has been a decline in rush hour service, does it mean that rush hour trains are more crowded than they were 30 years ago? Or does it mean that due to changes in work schedules, ridership isn't as heavily concentrated at rush hour as it was then?
(De-peaking) I've seen data showing that the share of people riding at peak hour is going down, and the share off peak and at the edges of the rush hour is going up, especially in the afternoon. I think the economic reason is fewer "pink collar" clerical workers. Professionals don't work 9 to 5, and neither do people working in service businesses -- stores open up later, and close later, etc.
You also need to factor in folks with Unlimited MetroCards that used to use a taxi/walk for trips while at work, now they use mass transit. Also the Dollar Vans have lost a lot of business due to this card. And mid-day shopping is up.
Back to your point .... i.e. change in commuter travel patterns .... Have you seen any surveys on this to back up you position ?
Mr t__:^)
There is an annual "Hub Bound" trip survey that shows a diminishing share of subway ridership in the peak hour. I saw data for Brooklyn from the MTA East River Crossing Study
The press will ignore something for a long time, because it isn't a money winner, but once the hounds get on the scent they'll roll with it as long as its hot. It turns out the MTA begging is just the middle story. Now Newsradio88 has found that money borrowed to buy ambulances wasn't used for that, and now the ambulances are breaking down and there is no money to replace them.
Hmmm -- phony capital borrowing to cover deficits. Sounds like NYC from 1965 -- 1975. The problem here is lenders will go on lending to Nassau, assuming its residents have enough money that they will be able to get it back. But eventually the debt will make the taxes/quality of life pretty bad. Control Board time.
I'm surprised the New York's Democrats aren't making an issue of this. I guess the pot can't call the kettle black. Where is Golisano when you need him?
[Hmmm -- phony capital borrowing to cover deficits. Sounds like NYC from 1965 -- 1975. The problem here is lenders will go on lending to Nassau, assuming its residents have enough money that they will be able to get it back. But eventually the debt will make the taxes/quality of life pretty bad. Control Board time.]
It's hard to imagine that Nassau taxes could get any worse than they already are. On the other hand ...
One thing that must be particularly annoying for many Nassau residents is the county's "hands off" attitude when it comes to LIRR station parking. Nearly all parking lots are restricted to residents of the particular village in which they are located. Residents in unincorporated areas, or who live in station-less villages, are for the most part [deleted] out of luck. If the county were to flex its muscles a bit and require the lots to be opened to all residents, commuting would be much easier for many people.
We have the same problem in New Jersey with restricted parking at the stations. I live in Eatontown, about 3.5 miles from the Little Silver station. I don't commute to the city so it's not a personal issue for me, but even if I wanted to I can't park at the Little Silver station - not even in the handicapped spaces, for which I have a state permit - because I don't live in Little Silver. Right now they enforce it from 4 AM Monday to 11 PM Friday in the main parking lot and 24x7 in the smaller lots adjacent to the station, plus the first two rows (metered) on the southbound side, but they're talking about 24x7 enforcement for the main lot as well. Middletown - where they sell 2600 permits for 1200 spaces - is now enforcing 24x7, and Red Bank is about the same as Little Silver. I don't know about the other stations on the line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Long Islanders can always park on the street in Queens -- at least for now. If Queens people had their way, it would be residents only on the street in Douglaston/Little Neck. Not that there is a scarcity of parking, and not that the residents are there during the day. It just offends them somehow.
I guess they think they are part of Long Island. My brother in law had to park on the street in Wantagh to take train. When he came back someone had poured acid on the hood to ruin the finish.
No one wants "outsiders" parking on their streets. In fact, a lot of people wouldn't want _anyone_ else parking in front of their houses.
On the dense urban streets surrounding Harvard in Cambridge, Mass, you need a permit to park on residential streets--and the permits are only for residents and their guests.
Most of urban Boston has a residential parking sticker system. And the sticker:resident radio is about 6:1 in some communities -- and makes for a lot of frustration! Thankfully I take the train to work from my suburban home to Beacon Hill!
However the MBTA Commuter Rail ("Purple Line") stations have mostly pay-per-day systems. At my station, it's $1/day - put a folded bill in the right numbered slot. There are a few communities that have resident-only permit parking at their stations.
Reporting live from Black Rock in Midtown Manhattan...
[We have the same problem in New Jersey with restricted parking at the stations. I live in Eatontown, about 3.5 miles from the Little Silver station. I don't commute to the city so it's not a personal issue for me, but even if I wanted to I can't park at the Little Silver station - not even in the handicapped spaces, for which I have a state permit - because I don't live in Little Silver. Right now they enforce it from 4 AM Monday to 11 PM Friday in the main parking lot and 24x7 in the smaller lots adjacent to the station, plus the first two rows (metered) on the southbound side, but they're talking about 24x7 enforcement for the main lot as well. Middletown - where they sell 2600 permits for 1200 spaces - is now enforcing 24x7, and Red Bank is about the same as Little Silver. I don't know about the other stations on the line.]
Regional as opposed to local government doesn't always work well. Look at how the Port Authority seems to be one unfulfilled promise after another. Yet examples such as yours show why keeping things at a local level can be a big mistake. Small towns that happen to have railroad stations within their borders should not be allowed to hog the parking lots for local residents. Doing so ignores the fact that many people just happen to live in towns without stations (I believe that Eatontown's in that category) yet need to commute as well.
< Small towns that happen to have railroad stations within their borders should not be allowed to hog the parking lots for local residents. Doing so ignores the fact that many people just happen to live in towns without stations (I believe that Eatontown's in that category) yet need to commute as well. >
Question: How many of the little towns that restrict station parking have spaces open by, say 8 am? If they don't, then you're not opening up parking, you're just changing the mix of who gets it.
The railroad, the counties and the state have some responsibility to create ways for people to use their facilities, including parking. When a new supermarket opens in the 'burbs, they're expected to provide all the parking patrons need--they don't tell the neighbors that they have to provide supermarket parking in their driveways.
The LIRR has been steadily closing stations over the years. Just a few include Republic (right on Rte. 110), Grumman, Blue Point, Bayport, old Deer Park, and most of the stations between Ronkonkoma and Riverhead. They wanted to merge Brentwood and C.I. This all increases the burden on open stations.
LIRR should be opening new stations where it won't impact communities so severely and provide parking garages, as at Ronkonkoma and Huntington.
If I were the councilman of a small town with a budget deficit I would consider building a multilevel parking garage near the station and charging for parking. The town would make a fortune. I have been to see some of the newer subway systems in the US, Atlanta and Washington DC. What strikes me is the 3000 car parking garages near the stations. On the down side some of these temples of transportation cost more than $50 million what with the off street bus bays, parking garage, and handicapped accessibility features like elevators everywhere.
(Newer subway stations with parking garages, etc.) How did they get them? You paid for them, in federal taxes. The way to get decent infrastructure is to follow your federal tax dollars out of the Northeast, to the places where the money is spent.
[The LIRR has been steadily closing stations over the years. Just a few include Republic (right on Rte. 110), Grumman, Blue Point, Bayport, old Deer Park, and most of the stations between Ronkonkoma and Riverhead. They wanted to merge Brentwood and C.I. This all increases the burden on open stations.]
None of the closed stations had any significant parking. In fact, IIRC the need for parking was the main reason for moving Deer Park station.
[LIRR should be opening new stations where it won't impact communities so severely and provide parking garages, as at Ronkonkoma and Huntington.]
It's worth noting that while Ronkonkoma has a massive amount of parking, it's all filled up by 7:30 or so each morning. When I arrive there on the Greenport shuttle about 6:55, the last few rows of the huge south lot are filling rapidly. From what I've heard, Huntington is even worse. As long as commuters insist on a single-seat ride, this is what happens.
I don't know about the other stations, but the lot at Little Silver is only about 70% full at 9 AM. There is no on-street parking anywhere near the station; fortunately for me, when I do need to take the train to the city during the week it's because I'm heading for Nevada via JFK so my wife simply drops me off. (When she travels out there to see our grandson I have to take her to Newark or Philly - no public transportation for her! Me, I'll opt for the cheaper fare.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One of the PROBLEMS is that folks drive in part way to avoid the addl cost of boarding in the next fare zone, so that last station in the lower cost zone is always packed with cars. Also some folks will drive South/North because they like the service (times/destination) on that line, this adds even more folks wanting to park cars. The local town SOLVED the problem by SELLING parking stickers.
I've also seen some expansion in size of parking lots on the South Shore line, but how many blocks away do you think it's reasonable to park you car ? I was able to WALK to my station so I just had to fight the crowd on the platform.
Mr t__:^)
[One of the PROBLEMS is that folks drive in part way to avoid the addl cost of boarding in the next fare zone, so that last station in the lower cost zone is always packed with cars. Also some folks will drive South/North because they like the service (times/destination) on that line, this adds even more folks wanting to park cars. The local town SOLVED the problem by SELLING parking stickers.]
Sometimes driving to the higher fare zone might be cheaper :-) Let's say you live closest to the Babylon station. You have to pay to park there. You might be able to save some $$$ by heading *east* to Bay Shore, even though it's a higher fare zone, because parking at Bay Shore station costs a goose egg. Of course, it'll make your daily commute somewhat longer.
Babylon is a very interesting example, because that's the end of the Elect. service, so East of that you'll only get diesels & have to "Change at Jamaica" to go to Penn Stn. In my example the customer was switching from a "express" elect. (or at least the last stop before it went express) to an "local" (or the first stop where he/she was more likely to get a seat) .... and you guys thought only subway rides switched back & forth between trains ????
Mr t__:^)
I came in on the middle of this thread, but just had to add a few comments. I commute from Lindenhurst, which has lots which require stickers. The cost is $25 a year, which breaks down to small change a day. Why shouldn't the people who live in the town get to use the land which belongs to the town for parking? There is only so much space, and it seems fair that the residents have first crack at it, instead of 'bargain hunters'. By the way, there are also lots for non-residents, as well a small amount of "Free Parking". I think the difference between the cost fare zones and the small fee for parking kind of equal out. In contrast, go to the "town" of NYC and see what you will pay to park. Even many residents try to save and park on the street, but for about 10 cents a day, I pay for the sticker.
[I came in on the middle of this thread, but just had to add a few comments. I commute from Lindenhurst, which has lots which require stickers. The cost is $25 a year, which breaks down to small change a day. Why shouldn't the people who live in the town get to use the land which belongs to the town for parking? There is only so much space, and it seems fair that the residents have first crack at it, instead of 'bargain hunters'.]
Not everyone in Nassau (or Suffolk) lives in an incorporated municipality that has an LIRR station and available parking. Limiting station parking to residents of the surrounding municipality leaves out all these other people.
Maybe the answer is to add stations with lots of parking specifically for park and ride. In other threads, I suggested reactivating (and electrifying) the Putnam Division as far north as the Tuckahoe road area, with parking lots there and a Yonkers Ave for people coming off the Thruway/Sprain/Saw Mill/Cross County.
t appears that there is freight-only rail trackage in the vicinity of Nassau Coleseum and Roosevelt Field, an area with lots of parking available during the workday. Roosevelt Raceway is also nearby, and so is the Meadowbrook Parkway. Perhaps this trackage could also be electrified and extended for park and ride service.
You also find commuter and freight trackage running through Long Island's declining industrial areas. These could also be the site of new parking garages, if those without resident parking were willing to pay for them. In fact, towns without stations could buy land and build garages themselves for their own residents, just as towns use their own lots for residents. As these areas redevelop with commercial activities, a small number of workers could commute to them as well as from them if they had stations. There's lots of empty space on the map alongside the main line west of Hicksville. What's there? I'll bet there is a place for parking garages, and the Wantagh and Northern State are nearby.
As long as NYC residents don't have to foot the bill. Perhaps towns without stations and parking should chip in for stations and parking facilities in these areas.
[Maybe the answer is to add stations with lots of parking specifically for park and ride ... it appears that there is freight-only rail trackage in the vicinity of Nassau Coleseum and Roosevelt Field, an area with lots of parking available during the workday. Roosevelt Raceway is also nearby, and so is the Meadowbrook Parkway.
Perhaps this trackage could also be electrified and extended for park and ride service.]
This trackage is a remnant of the old Central Branch RR and saw limited passenger service into the 1950s. There might indeed be some room for park and ride development. And the LIRR has had some experience with development of that sort, as shown by the relocation of the Deer Park station in the 1980s. Electrification might not even be necessary what with the introduction of the dual-mode locomotives.
[You also find commuter and freight trackage running through Long Island's declining industrial areas. These could also be the site of new parking garages, if those without resident parking were willing to pay for them ... There's lots of empty space on the map alongside the main line west of Hicksville. What's there? I'll bet there is a place for parking garages, and the Wantagh and Northern State are nearby.]
I doubt if there's much room west of Hicksville. Those empty spaces on the map are industrial areas and sand-and-gravel facilities. It might be possible to replace some of them with parking facilities, but a less-expensive idea would be to use the old Grumman airport between Hicksville and Bethpage. Although the site is being redeveloped for industrial and commercial use, there should be enough space available for parking garages. One drawback of the Grumman site is that it's a bit farther east than the areas with the worst parking shortages. Even so, it would be a help.
(The area west of Hicksville has Sand and Gravel facilities). Based on my expertise in land economics, I believe a parking garage for affluent commuters (and most of those who commute from Nassau are relatively affluent) could outbid a sand and gravel pit for land. Best of all, if the've dug down deep enough, an underground garage should be a snap!
I think the key to such a facility is the road access. People aren't going to want to drive far out of their way for a park and ride. Is Shea Stadium used for park and ride? That is certainly a good location.
Shea Stadium is used for parking for commuters taking the #7 train. Last time I used it several years back, it was pretty heavily used and reasonably priced.
I hear that Shea's parking lot is in better shape nowadays than it was when the Mets were still owned by the Payson family. It used to be that whenever it rained, the parking lot would be under a foot of water.
Another idea would be to use the monthly Mail-N-Ride ticket somehow, i.e. add addl cost to MetroCard side & have a gate to dip/swipe in.
This wouldn't address the "who gets to park" issue, but would assure regular riders a place to park & would allow non-local town residents into the lot. And if the local town got that dip/swipe money they might go for it.
The problem is lack of avail. "space" near many of the stations. Larry & Peter suggest creating lots in other areas, but would bargin hunting commuters go there ... well if they couldn't get into a more convient lot maybe they would.
Mr t__:^)
It looks like the Press have got the sent NOW, as there's a feature article in Newsday this Sunday.
It shows that the towns within Nassau, as well as Suffolk have been doing the same as Tom G & his friends.
Mr t__:^)
That's very interesting .... I wonder what it implies ?
Sounds like rush hour business is down. Does it mean, as you implied, that companies are allowing "flex hours" or does it mean that more folkes have gone back to driving because of dissatification with mass transit SERVICE (delays/overcrowding). We have belived that most of the increased off-peek business wasn't related to more customers, just folkes using mass transit once they got to work vs. walking/taxi/etc.
(We've seen some new business, i.e. from cars/dollar vans).
Mr t__:^)
My friend Thurston, is the Willy B. closed today and how is the transit service going on the Jamaica Line?
You haven't been reading the treads about the SubTalker Fairwell Trip over the Willy B.
Today, at 6 PM, tour guide Todd Glickman will escort a group over the bridge & back.
At 7 PM Bill from Maspeth will be driving another group across !
Mr t__:^)
Is the bridge closing in it's completely? I know the two tracks of the Jamaica Line are closing for 6 months.
It's closed, past tense. I think it happened Sunday. Scheduled to re-open in October. I got stuck at the job until after 5 PM, so I didn't even try to join the SubTalk group that met for a 6 PM crossing
They're providing a free B39 shuttle bus, but suggesting folks take other subway routes due to addl. 1/2 hour vis bus.
Mr t__:^)
And it seems that too many of the Nassau County Cops have a attitude, i.e. most seem to be bullies & color doesn't effect that, or maybe they're worse to them :-(
I did a month on Grand Jury & it just confirmed what I feel about them. They seem to need course 101 in "Public Service".
Mr t__:^)
[My guess is that this is one of those loans that will never get
paid back. Might as well cancel the R142 order right now. It's an outrage, really, diverting transit money from the region to a corrupt political machine.]
I don't the problem is corruption, I think fiscal incompetence. Tom realy wants to run for higher office (if George leaves everybody moves up ?)& therefore hasn't wanted to raise taxes, etc. But he wasn't minding the store on a few issues that have caused him a lot of embarassment ... Well Tom (and Rudy) there's always next year.
BTW, I don't take exception with Peter's comments.
Mr t__:^)
Hey, my wife had a teen job in Nassau, and had to kick in her one percent. She's a practical woman -- a Republican growing up in Nassau, a Democrat here in the city, so she can vote in the primaries. I can't stomach joining either.
I think that is at least part of the answer to where the budget mess comes from. Nassau is quite the political machine, and a big part of a political machine's power base is government jobs. Hard for the pols to negotiate tough on the workers contracts when they are negotiating with their political base....
For example, my former NYS Rep. Greg Becker, a Republican, lost his bid for a higher office ... guess where he works ?
P.S. I don't have a problem with what they did for him personally, but it just goes to the issue.
Mr t__:^)
Yes some of the old locos are frightful - especially #621. Looks halfway to falling apart, the old beast. Wonder how old it is.
As for the political ramifications/implications of the MTA loan to Nassau County, that is a political discussion, on which I have no comment and shall remain opinionless.
Wayne
Dear Sir/ Madam:
Recently, a train operator on the BMT N train told me that the
63rd Street Connection opening will cause the B, E, F, G, Q and R
trains to operate as follows:
(B) 6th Avenue-West End Express via Manhattan Bridge
145th Street-St. Nicholas Avenue to Coney Island at all
times excepts nights? (Local in Brooklyn and stops at Dekalb
Avenue ONLY during 8PM-12AM daily)
(E) 8th Avenue Local/ Queens Express
Jamaica Center-Parsons-Archer to World Trade Center all times
(Local in Queens late 12AM-6AM daily.)
(F) 6th Avenue-Culver Local/ Queens Express
179th Street-Jamaica to Coney Island all times
(Local between 71st-Continental Avenue and Queens Plaza 12AM-
6AM daily.)
(G) Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Local
Court Square to Smith-9th Streets all times or off hours?
Extended to Queens Plaza weekdays 6AM-9PM?
(Q) 6th Avenue-Brighton Express via 63rd Street and Manhattan Bridge
179th Street to Brighton Beach all times?
Express 179th Street to 21st Street-Queensbridge?
(R) Broadway-4th Avenue Local via Montague Street Tunnel
71st-Continental Avenue to 95th Street-Fort Hamilton all times?
I would like to know will this be the service plan after the opening
of the 63rd Street Tunnel Connection? Will they at least extend the
G to Queens Plaza during Weekdays 6AM-9PM? Because they can relay the
G trains through the middle D5 track between 36th Street and Queens
Plaza. Will there also be new V and W services? Will the B operate
to/from 145th Street-St. Nicholas Avenue at all times except rush
hours? Will the R operate to Queens at all times, and be reextended
to 179th Street-Jamaica during the Weekdays?
James Li
This is one of the most recurring threads on SubTalk! The answer we have now is that the decision hasn't yet been made, or if it has, it hasn't been announced. One of the key inputs to the decision, I suspect, is what happens - and when - to Manhattan Bridge service. If the south side reopens and the north side is closed, things change radically. We can all speculate (which is fun!), but we just don't know yet.
Wow, the Q run all times! That means local and express on the Brighton?
And a return of the slant R-40s to their old stomping ground - assuming they remain on the Q.
As Todd mentioned, this is all pure speculation at this point in time.
During a conversation with the Brass, when I was given an award last month,I asked what's going to happen.
As of now the plans are still up in the air, but tenative ones are to retain the current layout except for some minor changes. Have to keep the route changes simple or the public looses thier mind.
G service will cut back to Court Sq. 24/7.
E service will remain unchanged.
F service will stay, except at night it will run through 63rd St, when there is no Q.
R service will remain unchanged.
Q service will run through to Continental, local.
The point of this is to relieve the burden on the express trains that now carry most of the traffic to Manhattan. The local tracks are under utilized by having G trains only carry people as far as Roosvelt or Queens Plaza.
If passengers at 63rd Drive or Steinway could board a Sixth Av train at their home station and not have to transfer, there would be a lot less crowding on the express platforms, and less load on the E and F.
The Q switching off BEFORE Queens Plaza is a plus. That will keep the dummies who think they're actually saving time on the express from crowding on at the last minute.
I love the Brighton Express. And since Continental is close to home for me, I may actually pick a steady job, Hummmnnn?
So the F will be local in Manhattan and Q express then Q is local and F is express in Queens. I dont know about that one............
I don't see anything unusual about that. If the Q returns to Broadway, it would continue the practice of running BMT Broadway trains as locals in Queens.
I dont make any sense to me. I may be seeing something differently from you.............
Let me elaborate just a little.
Ever since the BMT connection opened in December 1955, every BMT service which has used it has run local along the Queens line. This includes Brighton trains, which used the connection originally, then 4th Ave. locals (RR) during the early and mid-60s, then the EE, followed by the N, and finally the R ever since it swapped terminals with the N. I think the main reason was that the tunnel connection was tied into the local tracks, specifically, the tracks used by G trains.
Historically, F trains have run express in Queens; for many years, they ran express between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave. at all times and out to 179th St. either during weekdays or rush hours. The express tracks lead directly to the 53rd St. tunnel. Older IND maps featured a footnote about F service: "F trains do not stop at Sutphin Blvd, Van Wyck Blvd., and 75th-Puritan Ave." They have always run local in Manhattan, and the way the tracks are laid out, it makes sense.
Since the 63rd St. connector will permit trains to access either the express or local tracks, it remains to be seen what will be done with Q service. If it returns to Broadway, it could start a new trend if ends up running express in Queens.
There are several perfectly good reasons why the Q MUST go local.
1 With E and F service already on 3 and 4 track, where would you put those R40's?
2 Whatever goes down 3, MUST go to the 53rd Street tube. Transit is not going to create a bottle neck at Queens Plaza every morning.
3, Currently, the local tracks are under utilized. With G service only using 6 cars for logical reasons, most all the folks get off at either Roosvelt or Q.P. Then they crowd on to an E or F at one of those two places. Very inefficient. Why not give 'em a one SEAT ride all the way in. AND relieve the load on the F? Then the 1 and 2 can start earning their keep.
I think the Q will be back on Bway. I do not know about the R being all times. The F will probably be local from 71 to 179 if the Q is express. I do not know about the G going to Queens Plaza during weekdays. The B would go to the Bx during rush hours like its current pattern. We just got to wait and see for when the official annoucement is made......
If they relay G trains in the middle track, that will cause tremendous delays on the E and F as they are really frequent trains since the G will have to cross over the express tracks to get to the middle tracks, they probably keeping the G at Court Square all times. Plus, they need more local services than just the R or there will be major crowdiness even on the local. My guess is if Q runs to 179 St, then let it serve as an express and F as a local. Reduced the F and increase the Q since it won't make sense to have F run local and Q run express in Manhattan and then switch in Queens. Or if the Q is to run on Broadway, it still won't make sense to have Q and R run local together and Q run express and R run local in Manhattan, because then who'll ride the R, they all ride the Q. Plus, they probably run R-46 on Q since it'll mix with Jamaica yard and then the Q can utilizt the F section of the Coney Island Yard.
once the 63rd street connector is complete G service won't operate past Court Square.
They could send it to Queens Plaza evenings and weekends like they had always done before. They layout around D5 will return to the way it was before when the work is completed.
Remember the Manhattan Bridge! This can (and will) change everything!
I don't think the relay tracks north of Queens Plaza exist anymore?
As I've said before, it is right now being used as the through track, but in the end, it will be restored as a 600 ft layup track.
thanx
At this time, it's out of service. The switch is blocked and clamped. Formerly a double ended track, there is now a bumping block installed at the east end of the track. Where it used to trail into either 3 or 4. I don't know if plans call for those switches to be re-installed, but it would make sense. Being able to get into 5 from either side, provides a flexibility for re-routing trains that need to either return to Jamaica Yard, or Manhattan/ Crosstown.
Right now, the track formerly known as 5 track is being used
as the n/b express. The existing n/b local (D2) and s/b express
(D3) tracks are staying put. The s/b local was shifted to the
new s/b local track located north (railroad west) of the old one,
where the tunnel wall was widened out. That's been in service for
at least 6 months. The old s/b local (D1) track and n/b express D3
track have both been torn up and turned into the Y tracks. The
invert has been poured and you can see it lead down and hang
a right turn where it connects with the tracks coming from
21 St/Queensbridge.
The alignment you see today is more or less the way it will be
from now on. The 2 switches to go into the Y tracks from either
express or local tracks were going to be 3-way (hhh) switches
last I heard because of the cramped distances. I didn't see
any mention of leaving any kind of stub tracks.
Thank you!!
Erik,
You're changing you 'name' faster than Zsa-Zsa gabor changed husbands. D-5 track will be the permanent N/B express. If it's not re-numbered we'll have 3 odd numbered tracks and 1 even numbered track, north of the Plaza. Another bit of confusing trivia for the future, I suppose.
The portion of five that's going to be used for the re-alignment of D4 has already been done.
What's left of D5 will remain, and serve as a siding, as in the past.
My question on the subject was as to whether or not it would end in a bumping block, as it is now, or will turnouts be installed, so D5 can be accessed from either end as it used to be.
Read carefully people.
I agree. Somebody mentioned that the Q will run local in Queens and F will continue to be an express. That do not make any type of sense whatsoever. Q should be express to 179 and F will continue to be local. If the Q do not run on weekends then the F will be express on weekends.
Look at the physical plant please. Trains coming from 63rd Street have the option of either track. And since only the R will be there, it wont' tie things up so bad. The ATD at Queens Plaza will be able to hold an R in the station at Q.P. while a Q runs into 36th Street. The 53st trains must use the express, or then congestion results.
And as for the Manhattan express run, If you get on at Northern Blvd, say and you want 23rd St in the City, you could just take the R and walk. Those statios are only a block apart.
Last night I received e-mail from the MetroCard contest group, i.e. they have been asking customers to vote on their favorite MetroCard of the first 77 issues, with graphics/adv, thru Jan 1999.
It was interesting to see that 1,200 customers voted. The winning entry will be pulled at 9:30 AM on Fri. April 30th at the TAs' Museum annex at "Times Square Visitors Center" on Broadway between 46th & 47th. I've been there ... the Museum has a small booth in the back of this complex of tourest booths.
BTW, us savy collectors have discovered at least four MCs weren't included in the 77 (three cards & one variation).
P.S. I know of at least three who asked for a concellation prize for finding these exceptions. I got a polite reply, but no prize.
P.P.S. Let me run my own contest here ... first person to ID all four gets a 50 cent tour of a local bus depot, OR round trip transportation to Jamaica ...... (Queens ;-)
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
I know these three:
The Sprint MC in Chinese (not officially issued, but a few got out somehow).
Dial-A-Mattress (not included for "artistic reasons", according to people over in MetroCard Development at the MTA)
An extra card in the CenterCare series (or was it the Beth Israel Hospital series) which was issued through the hospital and not through the MTA).
What's the fourth one???
--Adam
The 4th one is to commemorate the prison release of Amy Fischer!. Alas----she's free. All the proceeds from this SPECIAL edition MetroCard go directly to a luxurious suite at the Plaza Hotel for Amy and Joey (or whoever the Long Island Lolita would like to bring along) I can't believe you don't know about this.
Stay tued for the Monica Lewinsky bookselling milestone in NYC and the Daryl Strawberry MVP editions in 1999.
Joey's body shop, it's not THAT kind of body shop, is on Merrick Road in Baldwin. Before he sold it & moved to Calif. I used to open the window & say hi as I drove by. As my kids got older they understood my joke.
Mr t__:^)
After Saturday's Yankee game, the TA ran a Special D train. R68A's still with their B end signs (except for the headend) were signed Bedford Park Blvd / Coney Island. Even had a Black Floor 68A as the trailing Motor. Ran Express thourgh Manhattan and Brooklyn. Even held at Kings Highway via Holding Lights to connect with a local D. Don't know if it went express tracks after Brighton Beach though. Only thing missing were White Flags on the head end. Kinda nice they didn't turn this one (like normal) at West 4th like other Yankee extras, Thank You TA!!!
Will see on May 15th if there is another special like this one.
(Now if you could have called some R40 Slants instead of the 68A's but then I also want NX back too >G<)
Relative to the "Electric Lines" comments, can anyone tell me (a) what was the final issue of Joe Diaz' "Electric Railway Review" that ran in the mid-1970s, and (b) how many re-born "Traction & Models" issues were there/or are there if it is still published?
Vane Jones' daughter was at a Boston trolley meet a few years ago, pitching the "re-born" T&M, but it looked pretty dicey and I passed on a subscription, even though I have all the issues back to #1 (plus a pre #1 sample copy that was sent to would-be advertisers).
I also have a mimeographed NYC subway publication, just one copy, of a magazine (?) published by NYC high school students. [I'm at work and don't have the date, the high school in question, or the title.] From that limited amount of information, can anyone help with more information about this surprisingly good issue?
Regarding that High School Transit mag, if my memory is correct that may have been a project of a class at Brooklyn Tech during the 70's or early 80s. (I think I may have one issue hanging around someplace).
I have a few copies of Joe L. Diaz' very good "Street Railway Review" mags. I may be willing to part with these (I did with some a few months ago w/someone who requents SubTalk). I will let you know.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
[what was the final issue of Joe Diaz' "Electric Railway Review" that ran in the mid-1970s]
I wish the question had come up last week. I saw Joe Diaz at the CERA last Friday evening (4/23). Joe is still Joe, alive, kicking and peddling his collection of glossy traction pictures. I’m going to let him know that fans are still talking about the “Review” after so many years.
As a young man I learned much about electric traction in other cities from Joe's "The Street Railway Review", as I'm sure many others did.
Joe still writes a column that can be found in "First & Fastest", which is published by the ShoreLine Interurban Historical Society. This magazine, which is published quarterly, deals with electric traction subject, past and present, in and around Chicagoland. Its very capable editor, Roy Benedict, keeps it on schedule.
Jim K.
Chicago
I am looking for a map or something that tells me what lines go where that I can carry around and not get myself lost.
In response to the message that I just left:
I am also looking for prices and time schedules for weekdays and weekends. The map that I am looking for I am trying to compare to the one in Washington D. C. metro lines. Something close to that. If you can, can you please mail the items to me?
Address:
Aymar Ramos
# 1 D.C. Village Lane SW
Washington D.C. 20032
Thank you
Aymar,
This is not an official site of New York City Transit. We don't send out maps (unless you find a kind soul willing to do it as a favor). You should visit the official MTA New York City Transit web site at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/. I believe if you call the Customer Service number found on that site they will send you a map.
-Dave
Also, they are normally available free at the token booths. I realize this means you have to wait until you get here, but it's better than no map at all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Off the map subject, how is construction proceeding on your Green Line extension past Anacostia station? In particular, how are they making out around Congress Heights/Southern Avenue/Naylor Road?
I'm aware of the section of the Green Line between "U" Street-Cardozo and Fort Totten opening, scheduled for September 18, 1999.
Wayne
E-mail me at philiphom@aol.com. I work over at Bolling AFB and I can give (free) to you a copy of the latest subway map and answer any questions about NYC Subway services.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
I am looking for any sign from inside or preferably outside the station. Any feedback is appreciated.
You can usually find some on auction on eBay (www.ebay.com)
When you get there have it search on subway and transit.
Just be aware that these are auctions. Some of the bids are outrageously high.
They show up periodically at swap meets - one dealer who frequents the Greenberg show in Edison, NJ usually has a few. As I recall, at the last show he had a couple of Canal Street square metal signs, a subway roll sign of some variety, an old "no spitting on the platform" from somewhere in poor condition, and a couple of others that I don't recall. I suspect that there will be more than one dealer with a sign or two at the National Trolley Meet in Pennsauken this Saturday as well - no guarantees, though, I'm just a member of the sponsoring club and worker bee at the show, I haven't seen the list of dealers attending. For a time there was a dealer in one of the antique malls in Red Bank, NJ who had many signs, old to recent vintage; I haven't been there in about a year so I don't know if he is still there or not. He (or possibly an adjacent dealer in the same mall, I don't remember) also had a stack of builder's plates from NYC rolling stock - I don't know enough about them to know what era they were.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The New York Division of the ERA often auctions off signs prior to each meeting (7:00, third Friday of every month at the NY College of Insurance building).
The NYC Transit Museum also sells some in their gift shop.
Fordham University Press is pleased to announce the forthcoming publication of an important new book that visitors to this site will certainly find interesting. Written by noted transportation historian Brian Cudahy, the new book is entitled The Malbone Street Wreck. It deals with the infamous 1918 disaster on the Brooklyn Rapid Transit System, and is also a comprehensive study of the Brighton Beach Line on which the accident happened.
Publication is anticipated this fall.
Sounds GREAT! I'll be keeping my eyes out for it for sure. I also have, at home, the NY Times coverage of the accident in 1918. WHen I get my new computer (hopefully with either a scanner or voice-dication software), I'll be submitting it to this site.
--Mark
I checked out the MTA NYCT Subway web site and they have updated the Schedules. Now they have the time of all trains instead of this train arrives at Times Square at 9:00 and then every 5 to 8 Minutes after. So now you will have every train listed including Important stations.
CHECK IT OUT !!!
Nice find, Dave! It even has the new split M service.
The new on-line schedules are a fine presentation and give an excellent idea of the operations and complexity of the NY system.
A few fewer AM and PMs would be nice.
Also, on the F line, all the schedules are those for the D; plus the G has lost times after 10.00 on one weekday schedule
It is a bit hard to follow with the split format. Try figuring out
the timing of taking an "A" train from W4st to JFK. It takes to
iterations. I have noticed the paper schedules available at stations
are split the same way.
The timetable for the F is actually the timetable for the D. I'd point it out to them, but their website doesn't accept E-mail.
Also on the No.1/9 they have 241 St instead of 242 St
On the 3, it says 241St-Flatbush Av, Bklyn. It always been like that.
I have looked at the new schedules for all lines - a few mis-hits:
All F line schedules are those of the D line despite URL address;
The two C line 'weekdays' schedules commence from 1.00pm and only show trains from Euclid to 86th St ? - Bedford Park misses out?
The G line north bound weekdays ends about 10.00am; the G southbound Saturday downloads the Sthbound Sunday.
Note the the URL addresses for the three sections of for the A line:
207th St to Jay St - A
Jay to Leffeerts/Rockaway - T
Rockaway Shuttle - H
It is a pity the addresses on the 'H' and 'T' parts don't take you back to those lines, instead they take you to the Manhattan part.
Ian--
The C would not be posted to Bedford Park because it no longer operates there (it swapped northern terminals with the B 14 months ago).
Also: it looks like on the C scheduled, the AM and PM times have been mixed in together.
Suggestion: how about having one of the TA types on this board compile our error information, double check the website themselves, and forward the problems to the appropriate department? They would usually know who to speak with.
Michael
I do not think they show the upcoming weekend Brooklyn changes on the A and C lines. I havent check the L schedules yet.......
On several "shuttle" timetables that don't use separate "boxes" for each entry, but still should be arranged in tabular form, the data comes out in a proportional font (Arial?) and doesn't line up correctly. Also, on the 2 and 5 lines, the designation "149 St." is ambiguous - is this 149/Grand Concourse or 149/Third Ave.?
Perhaps someone should collect all these errors we are finding and find an address for someone at the MTA to send the list to! Still, it's good they are making the effort.
Check out the 14th St. Canarsie Line, with the extra service due to the Willy B closing - 3 minute headways at the height of the rush. Can I assume that the "one train at a time through the Bedford Ave. to First Ave. tunnel problem" has been solved?
Note also a couple (7:56 AM and 8:14AM) of Northbound (geographically westbound) trains will start at Myrtle Ave., probably from the layup track between Myrtle and Halsey. Is this new? I know that, prior to the early 1970's, about half the trains used this layup track to turn around at Myrtle during the rush hours.
Which class of car is faster. Is it the R 40s or the R32-38. If one class is faster then the other and or coupled to the other class that is slower does it downgrade the performance of the faster car, or does it make for a not so smooth ride with the cars banging into each other when accelerating or slowing down. Also where does the R42s fall into with speed. They seem slow because of the lines they run on.
The R40 seem faster than the other late-60s classes (R32, R38, R42, and yes, even R40M). I've seen R40 get to 50MPH in various places; the fastest R38 I've been on lately was about 45-47MPH (helped by a slight downgrade). Could be luck of the draw that R40 get express runs (they beat R42s in the 14th Street tunnel every time). You're right - R42 doesn't get ANY express runs except for that short elevated run on the "J" between Myrtle and Marcy. R32 seems to beat R46 on the Queens Plaza-Roosevelt stretch. I've seen R40 at 50MPH in four locations: "Q" from 34th to W 4th, "Q" from Kings Highway to Newkirk, "B" from 36th to Pacific, and in the 14th Street tunnel on the "L". The Slants can motor, that's for sure.
Wayne
The R42s certainly held their own in the speed department on express runs when assigned to the 'B' (34-West 4, Pacific-36); 'D' 59-125, Brighton Express; and 'N' (34-14-Canal, Pacific-36-59). This was back in the late 60s and 70s when they were a glamour item on lines dominated by older cars. As you stated, they are assigned to the Eastern division on lines with many, close-together stops and extremely old elevated structures. They only show their old potential in the 14th and Montague tunnels, and the long straightaways from Livonia to East 105th.
It is a crying shame that when the Mod-40s and 42s were renovated, the full-length end fan window was cut back to the standard higher one. That just leaves the Slants for my son to 'drive'. I can just imagine the kick he would get standing at the front of a 'J' going through the Junction and over the Willy B. (Of course, he may be in high school by the time the latter reopens!)
The original storm doors on the R-42s were a close copy to those on the R-32s, as I recall, in terms of window size. The windows may have been a bit larger and may have extended a few inches lower then they do now. However, the storm door windows on the slant R-40s are one-of-a-kind, to be sure.
The slants have run in solid trains for the majority of their careers except for the mix-and-match period during the early 70s. It's hard to say if their speed capabilties would be compromised if they were coupled with slower cars. Unless they were R-16s, perhaps.
I'd still love to see how the slant R-40s would do on the A today.
The R40M never had the elongated window at the "A" end - just at the "B" end. And the R42 has the same end window it always had.
Wayne
I'm dioing a report. How many volts DC is the system running?
Third rail voltage is nominally 625VDC
Nominal is the right word.
when I did track test for new car acceptance, measuring line voltage was part of the deal. There are or were places on the Sea Beach line where the voltage was as low as 540! Then again, I also saw over 700 on the IRT.
Speaking of power, does anyone know how much electric power is actually generated by the TA, and how much is Con Ed? I do know that the Rockaway Line is still powered primarily by Lilco (a remnant of its LIRR heritage).
Doug aka BMTman
Shocking news!!!!
Sorry but this Thread lit itself wide out for this one liner
How many volts DC is the system running?
600 volts 10,000 amps
Shocking news!!!!
Sorry but this Thread lit itself wide out for this one liner.
I woud just like to apoligize for my rather rude comment stating who cares. If that was true then no one would be tuning into this forum to find out hstorical facts or opinions on rail related topics. The last thing I want is for this newsgroup to be turned off completly because of situations such as this.And for that I apoligize. I just would like to say the ALMOND JOYS are my favorite R.T. Cars,likewise the MFSE. Despite the fact they had never had air conditioning except 614 ( I rode that car many a times and was such a pleasure ) and they didnt have the trucks uder them that Budd suggested I still think they were a great car mechanically and looks. I dont think theM-4s are that bad looking its just that they are very unreliable. As a matter of fact a train had its doors open up on both sides while in motion. I dont know if thats was a failure on the trains part. I actually think its the union doing it because they dont want the line going one man. As I stated before the M-4s are performing better,but time will tell.
Apology accepted. Hey, the Almond Joys are your favorite transit cars. Of course you don't want them to go. I didn't want the R-17s to go, but they did. If SEPTA had overhauled the Almonds, they might not have had to go so soon. I wish I had been able to ride in 614 if it had A/C, although I think I might have, but it was in the winter so obviously the A/C wasn't on. Now if they could put A/C in car 614, why didn't they do it in the other 219 Almond Joys (it was 220 cars total, right?).
All the doors on a moving train of M-4s were open? I hope there were no passengers on that train? I hope that was the union's doing and not the train's, because that could spell serious trouble for SEPTA.
Why are the M-4s having so much trouble? Other Adtranz products seem to be faring well, such as the Swedish X2000 and German ICE high-speed trains (both which were tested right here on Amtrak's NE Corridor). NJ Transit's ALP-44 electric loco is doing fine. And Adtranz's Flexliner DMU/EMU cars are running successfully in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Spain, and Israel. The Flexliner's American tour went well and I think the new DMUs between Philly and Harrisburg will be Flexliners (they should run Flexliners between New Haven and Springfield MA). Adtranz also has built transit cars for other cities. I don't know how reliable they are. Maybe railroad cars and locos are what they do best and that's what they should stick to.
I have German connections who have told me that Adtranz has built light rail anh rapid transit cars. They both told me that anything Adtranz has built for Europe in terms of what I just described is pure junk, Sort of like the M-4s. Sorry I had to get that in. Although like I said they have improved slightly and are not tying up the line during rush hours like they have been.
The total fleet when the Almond Joy cars were new was something I beleive of about 270 cars. I'm sure Bob could verify this for us.
[The total fleet when the Almond Joy cars were new was something I beleive of about 270 cars.]
The order for the fleet was awarded to the Budd Company in 1959. The cars started coming on-line in the Spring of 1960, I believe.
The Budd car fleet replaced a fleet of older cars numbering 215 Market Street cars and 100 Frankford cars for a total of 315.
The Budd fleet had a higher rate of acceleration and braking, as each car was powered by 4 - 100 HP motors. This helped reduce the running time between the terminals from 45 minutes one way with the old fleet (steel cars) and 38 minutes with the new (stainless steel cars).
The fleet comprised of 46 single units with a motor cab at each end. These were numbered 601-646. The permanently married pairs numbered 224, and carried road numbers 701-924. This is a grand total of 270. When the cars were new the El ran on a 1 3/4 minute headway during rush hours. Do the math and you will see most of the fleet would be out on the line during the rush hours.
Standard practice was to run six car trains during the weekday rush and base period. Saturday also saw six car consists. Sunday however, was a different story. In the morning three car trains, one pair and a single were used until about 11 AM. At that time four car trains took over.
Another interesting operation was owl service. The single units had door controls inside the car at the center as well as in the cabs. The cars could run as 1-car trains with the conductor collecting fares on board and operating the doors from the panel within the car. The 600's still have these panels but, except for those used on the Norristown Line (all scrapped), the panels saw little actual use.
Adtranz should then stick to railroad cars. NJT's ALP-44 electric locos must be holding up well because they're always in service especially on the Midtown Direct service. I think Flexliners are doing well, too. Speaking of NJT, I heard they chose Adtranz to provide the light-rail cars for their Trenton-Camden Line, which has already run into trouble from the FRA without even getting the green signal to begin construction. Maybe it's just as well, because the last thing NJT needs is to go through all the trouble that SEPTA has due to poor-performing Adtranz products. Are quality standards worldwide a problem for Adtranz? (which is now owned by DaimlerChrysler)
Why, for the love of B-II's, would anyone ever want to run
rail between Camden and Trenton? Who's going to ride it? Why? State
employees commuting to Rutgers? :)
It's probably a political muscle-flexing exercise, assisted by
very little NIMBY weight. A PATCO extension to Woodbury or Mt. Holly,
you'd have to charge $50 a trip to keep the crowds down. But this?
Funny thing about the Camden to Trenton rail line. Just a few days ago the local paper here had a article about how the Federal rail agency that must approve the plan to run light rail and freight trains on the same right of way gave the thumbs down to the NJT plan. This has to be a major setback for NJT. Although they stated they would still award the comtract to Bech-Tel even without the approval. Talk about spending money the wrong way.
I agree. Now if it were to run between Bordentown (where the proposed line would pass through) or Mt. Holly and Philadelphia (being connected to the Atlantic City Line at Pennsauken) then it would make far more sense. It probably was a political move although there was quite a bit of opposition to it. The NIMBYs pleas must have fallen on deaf ears if NJT is continuing to press on with this route and using diesel LRVs.
Why does NJT want diesel LRVs? Why not just use DMUs so at least the FRA might give the project the thumbs up? And why not run it directly to Philly? Would it kill them to do that? Why don't they put DMUs on the AC Line as well. I think three-car loco-hauled trains are a waste of diesel locos that could haul the longer diesel trains in North Jersey.
The unfortunate part of Trenton-Camden is that it is mainly a political move to show that the state of New Jersey doesn't spend all its transit money north of Trenton. Whether the line will succeed is anyone's guess. The US 130 corridor is quite heavily travelled but much of it is not end to end nor is it exclusively along 130 (i.e. drivers use it from one point off 130 to another point off 130, which the rail line won't help).
My fear is that the opposition will effectively kill other valid rail projects in Southern NJ such as any proposed PATCO extensions. You would think these would be welcomed but many urban escapees see the extensions as magic carpets which will allow Camden's problems to reach their communities more easily. An argument can be made for this, citing the example of Lindenwold, where many apartment complexes were built shortly after PATCO opened, and several of these are now crime prone areas. Of course, criminals have cars too (or they can easily steal them at the local mall), but most suburban folks fear transit as the vehicle that will "move thugs around".
has anyone ever heard of the K train? I saw it on the c line, the 11 train on the 7 line and i believe the W train on the N line. Does anybody know any more about these? thanks
ps: I saw the W on a R32 N train and the thing just had a yellow diamond with the black W and it just said Broadway.
The K train ran from 1/2/73 to 8/27/76 between 57 St-6 Av and Eastern Parkway via a Sixth Avenue,Chrystie Street, Broadway-Brooklyn Route.
A second K 8 Avenue Local ran between 168 St-Broadway and the World Trade Center from 5/6/86 to 12/10/88.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Technically, the 1973 to 1976 version was the KK and not the K. This was prior to the 1985 switch to single letters only. The AA became the K.
Gary: The KK 6 Av-Bway Bklyn Lcl ran from7/1/68 to 12/29/72 between 57 St/6Av and 168 St-Jamaica. The K 6 Av-Bway Bklyn local replaced it on 1/2/73 when the service was cut back to Eastern Pkwy. This lasted until 8/27/76 when all service between Bway Lafayette and Essex St was discontinued.
The later K as you said was a redesignation of the AA 8 Avenue Local. It ran as the K from 5/6/86 to 12/10/88.
Larry,Redbird R33
hes right. just i'm in dobut about the 8 train as well as these mapas in subway the restaurant.are they or were those routes real and what were their names.
i also have a question bout a train i saw number 6 but with n signs do all trains fit on all tracks
The 8 was the map designation for the 3rd Ave. el in the Bronx. It never appeared on any rolling stock. R-12 units which ran on the el were marked, "Shuttle".
To answer your other question, no, equipment is not interchangeable between IRT and IND/BMT lines. IRT trains can fit in IND/BMT tunnels, but do not operate there in revenue service because there is an unsafe gap between the train and platform edge. IND/BMT equipment cannot fit in IRT tunnels, specifically, the original 1904 portion (lower Lexington Ave. line (4, 5, and 6) south of Grand Central; the shuttle itself, and the 7th Ave.-Broadway line (1, 2, 3, and 9) north of Times Square.
All subway trackage in New York is standard gauge.
All of these are roll signs no longer or never in use. Some speculate there will be a regular 'W' train after all the construction invarious areas of the subway are complete. As for the 'K'? Who knows?
Don't forget, there's also an orange V sign - R68, R68A, and Slant R40 has it; R32 probably has it as well. This is some kind of "future" 6th Avenue service, route times and terminals To Be Determined at a later date, if at all.
- Wayne -
Yes, these are secret trains known only to true New Yorkers. The K train currently runs from the Bronx to Staten Island under Third Avenue. The W is the 10th Avenue line which runs from World Trade to 110th Street where it turns East to La Guardia. The 10th Ave. Local (the WW) runs north to Riverdale. The 11 is the 23rd Street Crosstown IRT. Often cars are switched around and some careless motorman forgets to change the sign. That's probobly what you saw. These trains were put into service around 1969. Their costly construction sapped the budget of the "regular" subway in the 1970s. The entrances to these exclusive trains are not easy to spot. Often disguised as Newsstands or in the lower levels of office buildings. Heightend security at many office buildins in recent years was devised as a cover to keep more people from finding out about these lines. In the early 1970s Public Bathrooms on the Subways were closed and converted into passeges for transfering. The PATH and the LIRR also have secret lines. The PATH Line runs from Newark Airport to La Guardia via 110th Street in Manhattan (1 level below the W) It stops in Downtown Newark, Giant's Stadium, CPW, Lexinton, La Guardia, Shea Stadium and Nassau Collesium. The LIRR Line follows Atlantic Avenue, runs under the River and up the West Side to Penn Station with a stop at World Trade.
Originally the Lindsey Administration had proposed an X train, with a local (XX) which would link all 5 boroughs. Most agree that it was never built due to politics and lack of funding but some claim to have seen it! I knew a guy who says he got on the X by mistake. He was waiting for the P Train at York Avenue late at night and an unmarked train pulled in. He didn't know if it was a P or an H. He got on and the conductor announced "this is a Brooklyn Bound X" The next stop was Floyd Bennet Field!!! And get this, according to my friend, the seats were padded and there was a bar car!!! The train went from 28th and York to Floyd Bennet Field in 6 minutes! On the way he saw local (XX) Stations at Sty-Town, Water Street, Governor's Island, and Sunset Park. When he got off he had to wait 20 minutes for the Shuttle back to Flatlands.
Now that would be cool.
The Train Operator Promotion Examination is scheduled for July 17, 1999. The Subway Operations Training Unit, Office of Human Resources, will be offering preparatory classes for this examination. All classes will be held at the NYCT Learning Center, 2125 W 13th Street corner of Av U and 86th Street Brooklyn NY 11223. The Schedule for these preparatory classes is as follows:
AM (Wed or Fri) 0900-1300
June-16,18,23,25,30, July- 2,7,9,14,16
PM (Tue or Thur) 1600 - 2000
June 15,17,22,24,29 July 1,6,8,13,15
Attendence for these classes is voluntary and is to be done on one's own time. There will be a total of five lessons that will be covered over the five weeks of training. One subject Matter will be discussed per week. Therefore, you only need attend one session per week. All employees should bring their Book of Rules and Regulations to class.
If you have any questions, Please call the Subway Operations Training Unit, Office of Human Resources at (718) 714-3541
On the LIRR Port Washington Branch, has there always been a station at Shea before Shea Stadium was built?
No. There was not. Although the Whitestone branch used to spur off right there.
I thought the station was built for the 1939-40 World's Fair.
Yes, it was built for the world's fair. But it didn't predate that fair. I wasn't quite thinking about the question. I was thinking about the fair, not the stadium.
What, if anything, was the station used for between the World Fair's closing in 1940 and Shea's opening in 1964?
I'm not sure. There was, however, a station called United Nations situated east of the Grand Central Parkway in the same general location that appears in the 1948 and 1951 timetables I have, but shows no trains stopping. I don't have any information on the station right now, but I will look into it. Perhaps this United Nations station was the old 1939-40 World's Fair stop. Anybody out there have any info?
According to Bob Emery's LIRR maps from the late 1950's. The United Nations station existed from c.1946-c.1952. It consisted of two outside high platforms and was located under where the footbridge to the '39 fair from the Willet's Point Station on the Flushing line was. I'm not sure if this is exactly the same location as the current footbridge, which was built for the '64 fair.
The UN used to meet in what is now the 'Panorama' at the Queens Museum, right?
-Hank
Hank: Your right. The New York City Building of the 1939 World's Fair was used for meetings of the UN prior to completion of the present UN site. As you said the building now houses the Queens Museum.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Don't forget the time the UN was in Lake Success.
I've never visited the Queens museum. Is it interesting? Any reference to the subways or LIRR and their role in the development of Queens?
I visted it ages ago when I was like 2 feet tall, so I hardly remember it. But - it's from '39, right? Is it the only remaining trace of the 39 fair? I know a they demolished the Aquacade a few years ago. Kinda sad actually. Also, is the current Shea stop where the '39 stop was? I know there's a LOT of OLD looking rail around there...
Dave: By all means go. They have a huge scale model of New York City that must be 200 feet long. Even single buildng,bridge,highway and elevated line is there. The Empire State Building stands about 15 inches tall. Its well worth the nominal fee but I believe it is closed on Mondays.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Lots of "class trips" go there from NYC & LI, so if you kid is in Grammar school make sure you're one of the adult baby sitters.
I've also been to the Statue of Liberty/Ellis Island trip, which was great.
Mr t__:^)
Gentlemen:
To clear up your questions - there was an LIRR station called World's Fair constructed for the 1939-1940 event. It was razed after that fair.
As a regular Port Wash branch rider going back to the early 1950's, I clearly remember no station at all at this location until the 1964 fair.
The existing station was built for the 1964-65 World's Fair, and originally comprised three platforms and six tracks to turn trains at the station. The station was originally named World's Fair/Shea Stadium because the ball park opened the same month as the Fair. After the Fair closed, the station was rechristened Shea Stadium and the service was restricted to the two Port Wash branch through tracks. Parts of the remaining two platforms and tracks still remain and have been used for testing purposes in the past.
to add to Andy's excellent post: The stairways to the closed off platforms are still present (or were the last tinme I when through the area). If you'll walk along the ramp from the subway station to the Park (old WF entrance) you'll see the LIRR station.
I used to ride this line up till the end of last year, and recall seeing the TA type red/yellow/green signal system -- functioning -- in the tunnel section of the LIRR's Flatbush line (the tunnel between Nostrand and Atlantic Terminal). What is the story with that?
Doug aka BMTman
They may LOOK like TA signals. But they are definitely NOT TA signals. All of them require at least two lights to be lit at all times. Ie: a green over a yellow would indicate Approach Medium. Meaning, Proceed, appraching the next signal at medium (30MPH) speed. In the TA that aspect means some thing entirely different. RR home signals frequently need three lights to convey their meaning, if it's a color light. Red over green over red: Medium clear. Proceed at medium speed until entire train has cleared interlocking. Usually, but not neccesarily, this means a diverging route. The combinations are many. Nothing like the TA's simple system.
Underground, the use of color lights is common, because a position light fixture takes up too much space. The small two light "pot" position light fixtures are also use a lot in the yards. Even underground.
Pennsylvania Station is almost all color light, and once you exit the tunnels, goes right over to positions.
I tell you, I will NEVER forget trying to qualify for my engineer's license.
A phrase I've heard about RR signals: "If it's not ALL RED, it's NOT RED at all!"
This means that RR signals can have red as one of their many aspects, but if at least one other aspect is not red, it has a meaning other than Stop and Stay.
Here's an excellent Web site on RR signalling.
IRT home signals were interpreted different from BMT or IND home signals.
One aspect on IRT home signals was always red. I wonder if any of those signals remain in use?
What you mean is, they're not interpetted like TA signals. The signal can look like anything, and they may even be TA signals. But what it means depends on what the railroad you're running on tells you it means.
-Hank
Does anyone know what happened today on the uptown 6 at 51st? According to the cryptic announcements in the stations it was an "incident". I did later pass 51st and it appears someone was struck (and maybe killed) since there was a train halfway into the station and lots of police tape. Whatever happened, I thought that the TA couldn't have handled it any worse. I was trying to get from Astor place to 77th on the 6 (I wasn't in too much of a hurry so I figured I'd stay on the local). We got to 28th St. and the doors remained opened for about 30 seconds and the conductor came on and said there was an "incident" at 51st and that we'd be holding momementarily. We waited about 3 minutes and he came on again and said that it was a "serious incident" that was being investigated and that we may be sitting for awhile. Hearing this, myself and a large portion of the passengers left the train. I proceeded to the N/R station several blocks over and took an R (a really slow R-46... although I think it was only because we were right behind another train) to Lexington where I wanted to transfer to an uptown 6. By this time there was an announcement (quite cheerful too) that went something like "Because of an earlier incident on the uptown 6, there is no power between 14th St. Union Square and 125th St. all 6 trains will be running express between 14th St. and 125th St... .etc." so I went downstairs and got on an uptown 4 and took it to 86th figuring I could transfer. Of course there are no signs at 86th informing you that you can't transfer to a downtown train so I got on another express to 125th. At 125th I got back on a downtown 6 train. I figured I'd finally be able to get to 77th especially since the announcements said to get off at 42nd, 59th or 125th and take a downtown train to get to missed stops. But we got to 86th and suddenly a voice of someone other than the conductor comes on and says that this would be the last stop and the train would be returning uptown. By this time I was sick of riding around (and running almost an hour late) so I figured I walk to the place I was going. Really annoying... My return trip was a little better but sort of mysterious. I went to the 77th St. 6 station and waited and the first train pulls up and is signed as a 4 but the conductor says "making all local stops" so I get on. Passing through 51st, it is obvious that someone was struck on the uptown track since the train is sitting at least a car-length from the stop marker and there is tons of police tape around. We get to 42nd and the train is held for about a minute. Then I hear on the radio insturctions for the train to proceed to Brooklyn Bridge making all local stops. We get to Canal and hold while an express passes (and for quite some time after), then switch over to the express track. Finally we get to Brooklyn Bridge and I hear the dispatcher (or some supervisor) complaining that the T/O didn't respond to radio commands for the "Downtown 6 to hold at Canal." I'm confused here... the train continued on to Brooklyn (apparently since I got off at Brooklyn Bridge)... what exactly was this train? The conductor never ID'd it as a 4 or a 6, it apparently started as a 4 since I heard the T/O ID himself as Woodlawwn 16:34 ... was it just a 4 making all stops? I'm more confused about the experience headed uptown. Why would the TA make announcements to transfer to downtown 6s at 125th to get to stops between 59th and 125th when they were turning trains at 86th? There were a lot of angry customers. I know that emergency situations present a lot of problems, but it would seem like there should be some plan to follow if X station is closed/blocked or whatever so it doesn't hold up the entire railroad.
Some other questions:
1) Why would anyone waiting at 59th care that "there is a downtown 6 train approaching 103rd St"? I don't know anyone who can pull running times between random stations out of their head... it would seem much more logical to just say "the next train will be here in approximately 5 minutes" or something like that.
2) I kept hearing the delay announcement in all the stations in the same voice... is there some network between stations for that sort of thing.
3) Why would the power be cut all the way from 14th to 125th? I'd think the track would be sub-divided into much smaller sections that can be disabled.Also if the power was cut, why would the interior and brake [or marker] lights on the trains parked in the stations be on?
4) Why were there no attempts to give free transfers to customers leaving 28th or any of the other affected stations (or at least not that I observed) it seems if there are no other ways to go and you are basically trapped in the station (true at most local stations at least) that the TA at least owes a transfer to some other form of transportation.
But then again this is the TA so why would I expect any logical, informed decisions about rerouting trains or anything like that?
Mike
You ask so much at once. I'll try:
A homeless man apparently deranged, shoved someone to the track. The victim is said to have survived. His legs were amputated, unfourtunately.
Sometimes, the control center will give instrunctions to the crews, and then make announcements, only to have new information become available that changes the situation. Then all hell breaks loose when the riders are told there is a different plan. It sounds like that's what happened to you.
The PA sytem is on a network. If the announcer kes all the staions when they really only want to speak to one, then.....
Some times, it has little to do with where the power is off, but where a train can be turned around. There are interlockings (switches) at 86th Street and Grand Central. And the lights remain on when the third rail is off because they are supplied by batteries.
All in all , today was SNAFU for the TA. Situation, normal, All Fu#$ed Up!
>Sometimes, the control center will give instrunctions to the crews, and then make announcements, only to have new information become available that changes the situation. Then all hell breaks loose when the riders are told there is a different plan. <
That's the second time in a week that's happened... last Wednesday on the N at about 8PM the same sort of thing happened although it was because of (I guess from the radio reports I heard) a fire at City Hall.
Moral of the story:
Don't ride the subway between 5 and 8 PM on Wednesdays (there was another incident I ran into several weeks ago involving a track fire on the A out on the bay a supposedly a train crew being given orders from several parties on what to do causing a 20 minute delay).
Mike
For more information on the subject of Chaos on the Lex, there are articles in the NY Daily News Thursday April 29, pages 4 and 5. Also in the NY Post Thursday April 29 page 6 on the person who was pushed at the #6 line at 51 Street and Lexington Ave Station.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
This is an unfortunate example of what happens when people don't do their jobs. Obviously, the guy who pushed this commuter onto the track is directly at fault. An overloaded subway platform, however, makes these guys comfortable enough to push people onto the track or take wallets with less fear than a medium crowded platform would. I have told some people that someone would have to get hurt on the Lexington Avenue Line for changes to be made, such as a 2 Avenue Subway or monorail. I hope that the MTA takes this incident as a wake-up call to do something about the East Side situation or the next commuter may lose more than their legs.
for a 2nd av subway to be built at this stage would take at last 15 to 20 years to complete. How would your logic hold up if the 2nd av were to be built and during the time of construction 5 to 10 people were pushed infront of a train on the Lexington Avenue Line? or elsewhere?.
By your token who wasn't doing their job?
I bet they could do it in 6, if they don't have to do new studies.
-Hank
For more Information on Chaos on the Lex, check the NY Post Friday April 30 pages 6-7 and page 28. Also the NY Daily News Friday April 30 page 7 on how the victim is holding on.
charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
with 3 completed sections of tunnel already in place and to get contracts awarded and other related stuff it could never be completed in six years. The 63rd st connection from 21st Queens bridge to just south of 36th st and Queens blvd is what 900 to 1000 ft and won't be completed til aroound 2001? I think work on that started alone around 1995. The way New York City population is growing and the economy is going I agree studies shouldn't have to be done either to complete the 2nd ave subway.
In answer to some of your questions....
1-The reason they tell you where the train is and not how long it will take to get there is because sometimes it takes longer than is stated. Better to let the passengers know that there really is a train out there than that cryptic sounding..."is just 2 minutes away.."
2-The delay announcements on the east side are made by an announcer in the Grand Central Tower. On the west side they are made from the Times Square Tower. In the BMT/IND they are made from Dekalb, 59th Street, West 4th Street not to mention announcements from local towers and dispatcher offices. I should have mentioned that the above have far reaching abilities in scope of announcements.
3-Interior and marker lights are fed by a battery on the train.
4-Can't help you with this one. I'm not sure what our policy is regarding block tickets and such.
What's the show for this 21 of May meeting?
Arthur Lonto will be presenting the show on Friday, May 21 at the College of Insurance. The BULLETIN will be mailed out next Thursday, May 6.
David
To Erik,
Since four trains aren't going to run along 63rd St/Queens Blvd Connection during weekday evenings & weekends after it's opens, what will the service plans be during the weekday evenings & weekends,please post on subtalk.
Sincerely,
Michael
On weekends and nights, the F will run up to 57th Street, and then through the 63rd Street river tube to Queens, local all the way only when there is no R. Ie; after mid night.
But then the local stations won't have any access to QP, or even to 23rd Ely for the connection to the G. They might wind up making the E the local.
Whenever there is no R, ALL trains are "against the wall."
Does anyone know when this extension is scheduled to open and how much it cost?
To Erik,
Do you know or can you find out on when F express service in Brooklyn will ever be restored since there is still a surplus which can be used to restore the express service, please post on subtalk.
Sincerely,
Michael
Probably never. It doesn't make any sense to have an express that bypasses the busiest stations.
I asked this question of a man I know in operations planning. About a year ago, or so. I also had suggested running the G all the way to Church Av again, too. I figured It would give the G crews, a better deal, havig proper terminal facilities at both ends of the lie. I'm not just talking about storage tracks and platform space. I mean a bathroom, and a few minutes break. The way it is now at Smith/9th you relay and go. If you gotta go, then tough.
The F will probably never run express in Brooklyn n the near future for two reasons. One is that the ridership on the Culver line just isn't there. Two, the yuppies are all at the local stops, and they all want the one seat ride. They would all scream bloody murder if they had to loose their seat and tranfer at Bergen St. AND walk UP a flight of stairs! Look what happened after the Bergen St. tower fire. Waa, Waa Waaa.
The layup track appears to be ready, but shuttle trains are still
proceeding to Howard Beach. What is going on?
Patience my boy patience.
Hi all,
I have Microsoft's Flight Simulator 98, and am wondering if anyone plans to do the NYC subway and/or worldwide metro systems simulator in the near future? I'm not talking about cheap ones, I'm talking about just like MS Flight Simulator with texture landscaping...for SubwaySim it would have actual platform locations, actual switching locations, etc., for Elevated portion, can create texture buildings and landmarks, etc., even the bridges, day, night, rainstorm, snowstorms, etc.
Heck, with SubwaySim, you could run any type of subway cars, like D type, Lo-Vs, etc. or even re-create now-demolished lines like Culver shuttle, 3rd Ave line, old Manhattan Els....
Cheers,
Michael Adler
There are a number of rather nice RxR Sims out there. So, it would seem that the programers could just change the scenery & call it a SubSim if they thought they could sell enough.
BTW, Why isn't there any Subway monthly mag.s ? Still a bunch of Trolley/Steam/Passenger mag.s out there :-(
Mr t__:^)
Why no subway magazines? Other than the ERA Headlights and NY Division Bullentin, there is no interest in a commerical publication from the railfan point of view. Maybe in England with Ian Allen publications, but in North American? No. Maybe a subway annual, but a monthy mag needs a wide circulation to make it. Railfan & Railroad has a transit section, but would R&R print a full page photo of a Flushing line train with the UN in the background? No
I do get an industry related publication semi-monthly and they cover heavy rail 33% of the time. The other 66% is to motor coaches and transit buses.
Would R&R publish a subway photo? I suspect that they would, assuming that it was (1) well done, from a photographic/artistic point of view, and (2) relevant to current events, such as a photo of the R142s when delivered. They're not publishing many full page photographs at all, and there are a lot more railroads out there than subway systems, hence the frequency and amount of transit material is low, but I don't think it's terribly out of proportion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Can we go back to this subject of SubwaySim? if you all want to talk about magazines, please create a new subject.
Hey all!
I went over to NETransit web site and found a really cool playstation game, UNFORTUNENTLY it is NOT available in the USA, it is available in Japan...you could see they have excellent graphics and I think they should be made available in the USA, all you have to do is send a message to NETransit's Scott and he'll gather all emails and write a letter to Japan company and see if they'll consider marketing the game in USA (in english version, of course)
Please check out this site, you'll see cool screen shots!
http://members.aol.com/netransi10/densya/densya.html
Cheers,
Michael
Wow! Look's GREAT! I signed the petition!
--Mark
The game's called Densya De Go! It's a cool simulation of various Tokyo subway/ commuter lines. There are four lines in the first game. The game's pretty realistic in terms of graphics... u do get the sense of driving a train. They even sell a special controller for it. It's a blast to play with the controller... I was playing for hours on end. It's not very hard to play, even with all the japanese... control is pretty simple... go and stop! The game is pretty old now, came out last year I think so it might be hard to find.
There's a sequel out in Japan now.... Densya De Go! 2 I haven't seen it yet but expect more of the same... There's even a new controller designed for it! This is a single handle controller. I got mine at www.ncsx.com
I was just over in Chinatown over the weekend. I notice that in the Elizabeth Center (near the NYPD %th stattion house) there are chinese based games based on the Playstation. Perhaps someone with a working knowledge of Cantonese can visit these shops and see it they imported (or could obtain) Desya De Go!
Phil Hom
ERA3620
I have Densya de Go 2. It's $100 with a one hand type (R-110A) contoller. You can drive the subway up to the JR E3 class Shinkansen. If you have a game shark (which I have) you can do all sorts of cool things. There are plenty of photos and movies of Japanese trains.The game is a MUST HAVE FOR RAILFANS< IT IS VERY ADDICTIVE!!! Go to this webpage for more info, (it's not my webpage)
http:members.aol.com/netransi10/densya/densya.html
Yeah, but it's no fun...I tried to plug it and that didn't
blow all the motors. I tried to bypass a station and
it stopped me...then a Japanese woman yelled at me. I
tried to hit the block at the end of the line and I couldn't.
If ou have an Action Pro Replay, you can blow it without being stopped.
Also "RailNews" has a "Commuter/Transit" section with reports from a number of cities, but only incl. one or two small photos, i.e. March had a Boston T PCC at Mattapan.
I've also said that it appears that the publ. seems to directed to employees vs. rail fans ... and since I'm not a RAIL employee ...
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone know if any of the subway car rebuilders (i.e. Morrison Knudsen, General Electric, etc.) made videos showing work before and after? This would be something that I'm sure many transit railfans would love to get their hands on.
Doug aka BMTman
Sorry, I can't think of any one who did. I did take a lot of pictures of the R40's at the plant, both before and after. All of them were prints and most had my friends and co-workers in them. Some were of details and very few are the typical posed railfan shot.
I returned from Seattle last night (Wednesday), and it took me nearly two hours this morning to read through all the SubTalk messages since I left! Anyway, more than you ever wanted to know about Seattle area transit!
THE AGENCIES
There are three main counties in metro Seattle, and each has its own transit agency:
*King County Metro for King County, which includes Seattle itself;
*Pierce Transit, for the county due south of King, Pierce County, which includes Tacoma; and
*Community Transit, for Snohomish County, which is due north of King County.
There is also in place the Central Puget Sound Regional Transit Authority, which goes by the title "Sound Transit." Funded by a 4/10 of a cent sales tax, it will operate regional express buses, light rail, and commuter rail in all three counties.
THE PRESENT SYSTEM.
*King County Metro, or just plain "Metro," operates buses, trolley buses, and the Waterfront Streetcar line. The fare is higher during peak hours, and the buses run on a two-zone system, with the Seattle city limits as the zone boundary. In other words, a trip wholly within Seattle or which never enters Seattle is one zone, while a trip from the suburbs to Seattle or vice versa is two zones. According to a Metro employee who lead a tour I took, over 380,000 people come into downtown Seattle every day by transit, which is huge for a city of that size.
*Some of the surface lines are regular diesel buses, while some are trolley buses, running on overhead wire and using dual trolley poles. Downtown is a fare-free zone, and when one boards a bus downtown, they pay getting off the bus if they exit outside the fare-free zone.
*Major bus routes, mostly north-south trunk lines, use dual-mode articulated buses, which a guide on a tour I took said are the heaviest buses an agency can buy because of the diesel engine and electric motors. Outside downtown, some of these routes run express on HOV lanes on the freeways. These routes come into downtown from the south through an industrial area on the Busway, a two-lane road dedicated to bus use which has a few stops on it at major streets. Then, these routes stop to mechanically extend their dual trolley poles and enter the Metro Tunnel. The tunnel runs under Third Avenue downtown and has five stations, the two portal stations, below grade but open to the sky and with street entrances, and three fully underground stations which, due to space constraints, have their entrances in buildings on Third Avenue. The three stations are relatively deep and have mezzanines despite the lack of turnstiles. The five tunnel stations are in the fare-free zone, and are operated the same way as the surface routes: fares are same for surface and Tunnel lines, are paid by farebox at the front of the bus, and you pay getting off if you get on in the fare-free zone and get off outside it. All five stations are clean and well-maintained, and all contain artwork. Unfortunately, the Metro Tunnel closes at 11pm weekdays, 6pm Saturdays, and is closed on Sundays. When it's closed, the routes operate on the surface on streets with overhead wire.
*The Waterfront Streetcar runs from a station just across from the southern portal station of the Metro Tunnel, through the historic part of downtown, to the waterfront, and then along the waterfront across the street from the piers. It's a one-track line with passing sidings. The platforms are high and have ramps as well as stairs, so the line is fully accessible. You can transfer free from the buses to the Streetcar if you pay a fare on the bus, but otherwise the Streetcar is not considered part of the fare-free downtown. The line uses at least two (I saw a southbound car as it passed the northbound one I was on) 1920s Melbourne streetcars, which still have some Melbourne Tramways signs. The line shuts down about 6:30pm seven days a week, except in the summer when it stays open to midnight every day.
*I don't know about Community Transit (Snohomish County), but Pierce Transit runs express buses, running on compressed natural gas, to Seattle. These buses use the I-5 HOV lanes to get to Seattle. They leave from a well-designed bus terminal just outside downtown Tacoma. The terminal includes a six-story parking garage, a coffee shop, public washrooms, and security cameras and a guard. Local buses and a downtown circulator bring passengers to the terminal, thus connecting the express passengers to downtown Tacoma and the rest of Pierce County. Over 6700 people use these expresses every day, and every new run added to the service fills up in about a week.
*The Monorail is not a Metro operation (I don't recall who runs it) but it starts from a station above and connecting to one of the Metro Tunnel stations and runs non-stop to Seattle Center, the former World's Fair grounds and now the site of the KeyArena, the Science Center, and several other cultural sites. The ride is very fast, and the route stays open until 11PM every night, unlike the Metro Tunnel and the Streetcar. The train cars are from 1962 and definitely look it (in style; they are clean and well-kept).
THE PLANS -- SOUND TRANSIT
*Commuter rail should start very early next year. It will run at first strictly from Seattle to Tacoma, but will be extended after a few years north to Everett (the Snohomish County seat and principal town) and south from Tacoma to Lakewood, also in Pierce County. The initial service will be about five trains into Seattle in the morning rush and five outbound in the evening rush. This will increase after a few years to nine rush-period trains in each direction, and eventually there will be off-peak service. The line will use BNSF trackage and will be two-tracked for most of the route. The Pierce Transit express-bus terminal in Tacoma is intended to be the site of the commuter rail station. To the existing parking garage and bus terminal will be added another parking garage, a light rail station, and the commuter rail platforms. The existing rail tracks run one block from the garage, so the light-rail station will be built on the street inbetween the garage and the tracks and the commuter rail station will be in an existing building on the block inbetween.
*Light rail will be built in two routes and will be open sometime around 2003-04. One line will run in Seattle to the U of W in the north and Sea-Tac Airport in the south. It will use the existing Metro Tunnel and Busway, and many of the tunnel routes will be eliminated, the remainded moved to the surface. Outside the existing ROW, the line will be a mix of subway, elevated, and street-median routing. The bus system in King County will be reorganized to feed into the light rail stations, rather than the downtown-centered system in place now. The other route is a two mile street-running line in Tacoma connecting the commuter rail station to downtown and then circulating through downtown. Fares on both lines will be on the honor system, buying tickets from machines on the station platforms and having them randomly checked by roving fare collectors, with a heavy fine for passengers without tickets.
*Since both the commuter and light-rail lines are on the west (Seattle) side of Lake Washington, they don't serve the eastern King County suburbs like Redmond. Therefore, Sound Transit will also operate regional express buses, running from transit centers that will have parking garages and interconnections with the local bus routes run by the existing county transit agencies. These routes will travel on HOV lanes on the freeways and bridges.
*Sound Transit will have uniform zoned fares for commuter rail, light rail, and express buses, and will have transfer privileges with local buses.
MY TRIPS
*I took the Metro bus from and to SeaTac Airport. There is a local bus that runs from downtown Seattle, as a surface route, to the airport and beyond, and an express bus that runs non-stop from the airport to the entrance to the Busway and the Metro Tunnel. The express trip takes just over a half hour. Off the Busway, the express route uses a HOV lane on I-5 to get to the airport.
*I rode the Streetcar twice, once to a reception at the Seattle Aquarium, which is on a pier, and once to the end of the line to get to a dinner cruise at a pier across from the streetcar barn. Both times, I was on the last run of the day!
*I rode the Monorail, once for the heck of it and once to a reception at the Science Center. (If you get the impression I went to a lot of receptions, it's because I did!)
*I toured the Metro Tunnel as part of a convention event.
*I took a tour, as part of the convention, of the planned commuter rail system, seeing the Seattle and Tacoma large stations and the sites (no building yet) of two smaller suburban stations. The Seattle station will be in the King Street Station, now used only by Amtrak and about a block from the southern Tunnel portal station and the Streetcar terminal station. $45 million is being spent to restore the 1906 station to its original condition, from a 1960s modernization which included a false ceiling that hides the beautiful high and intricate original ceiling. The renovated station is near the Kingdome and, as the downtown transit center with the Tunnel and Streetcar stations, will be the centerpiece for redeveloping several parking lots and unused industrial sites into office and residential space. This will effectively extend downtown Seattle, where King Street Station is now the very south limit, several blocks further south.
TO EXPLAIN
To answer some questions, APA is the American Planning Association, of which many city and regional planners, government planning and land use officials, consultants on land use and planning, and attorneys with a land use practice are members. I work there doing legal research on planning and land use laws. We had our annual National Planning Conference at Seattle (last year was Boston, next year is NYC). Since some of these planners and officials are in the transportation field, some of the conference sessions and tours are related to transit. Therefore, as well as my own excursions on the Metro Tunnel, the Waterfront Streetcar, and the Monorail, I attended the aforementioned offical tours and discussions of the planned commuter and light rail systems.
Thanks for the informative update! As I recall, the final issue of The New Electric Railway Journal had an article on Seattle's plans, including commuter rail and light rail possibilities. Obviously they've made some progress in that direction since the article was written.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Over 380,000 people come into Seattle by transit). Hmmm. According to the 1990 Census of Population (Journey to Work File) only 120,000 people worked in downtown Seattle, and only one-third of them came in by transit. This means one of three things 1) Downtown Seattle has really grown, and I mean really 2) lots of people are taking transit to employment centers in Seattle which are not Downtown or 3) the guy really meant to say 38,000 not 380,000. Or perhaps its 380,000 rides every week in both directions. Or something.
I would like to know if you can find from Operations Planning if there are plans to extend the G trains to Church Av in the future & if so, when will it take effect. Please post on subtalk.
Sincerely,
Michael
As of most of you judged train in a railfan perspective. Trains such as R-40 and R-42 may beat out other trains in speed a little but they are poor quality trains. Why do you suppose they are on the eastern division mostly. They are loud, noisy, shaky, and have uncomfortable seats. They are spacious but not enough poles. As compare to R-68, R-46, and R-44, they are quiet, steady trains. Their seat configuration are much better also. As a regular person going to work or school, they prefer comfortable seating and quiet rides. And as a tourist or outsider riding the MTA, R-44, R-68 would give them a better impression because of their appearance as compare to the stumpy, ugly, and old-fashion looking R-40s, R-42s. Also, as for speed, alot of other trains reach 50MPH in tunnels, 60th St tunnel, on N train, the ride between the 2 stations take less than 2 minutes on any trains, R-68, R-40, R32, usually, less than 15 seconds difference. Plus, runs such as from 59th St to 42nd St, 34th St to 14th St, and Fulton St Tunnel in 8th Av reach high 40 to 50MPH even on R-44. These train CAN reach high speed but unless necessary. Usually its not safe to reach a speed as high as 50mph on a subway. C'mon, u want speed, drive a convertible, its the subways for crying out loud. Also, for people who says they want to see R-40s on the A, think The A trains serve the airport. People from other places ride the A and if they ride noisy shaking trains such as R-40, what will they think. As someone mention before, the MTA need nice trains on "showcase lines" like 1 where alot of business people take and A where outsider take.
Down here in Philly The MFSE regularly reach 55mph. The Broad Street Subway on the expresses reach 67 MPHs with locals doing about 50-55. It you want speed you should ride the subway not a car. The subway should be fast if not it would be no better then a bus. New yorkers do have the right to compare or complain about the speed of there subway. They are right it should be fast.
with current signals and modified brake shoes pads (and what I was told brake pressure) now a train braking in emergency takes longer to come to a stop. In other words braking distance is longer and a train can collide with a train in the signal block ahead. With steel or was it iron shoe pads and the higher brake pressure when an emergency application of brakes occured the train was designed to stop quicker (sometimes wheels would lock creating flats) and a harder more uncomfortable stop also possible injuries to customers). Now to save money and wear and tear composition brake pads and alleged brake pressure modifications trains in emergency take loonger to stop creating the danger of a train colliding with a train in the block in front of it. After the Williamsburg Bridge collision in 1995 train speed was modified to a top speed on level track to now 40 mph, resulting in slower speeds on grades.
Oh,my god! I love this guy! Finally, some one who understands what I've been screaming about for the last ten years!!!!!
YES! YES! YESSSS!
"with current signals and modified brake shoes pads (and what I was told brake pressure) now a train braking in emergency takes longer to come to a stop.
Well, here we go again. I have a one word answer for you.
WRONG !!!
I'm still waiting for someone to post some verifyable data that proves cars do not stop as fast today as they did in the 70s & or 80s. If you have the data, you show me yours and I'll show you mine.
The way to tell is with an accelerometer that will document the rate of acceleration and deceleration of a car
I am sure the tests have been done and the cars decelerate just fine.
Yes they have and I have the results of every current car class....
If it can be posted, can you post the rates of the cars for which you have data?
Steve,
The rates on a normal stop are the same, but what about in an emergency situation? I seem to recall hearing from an uncle who was then with the NYS comptroller's office that after the Williamsburgh Bridge accident, they discovered that the emergency brakes were set for a stopping distance insufficient to prevent that collision. He was not very technical in describing the problem, so I'm not sure if preasure was the issue, but it certainly may have been. (NYS was involved in investigating the issue since the TA is partially state-financed)
He was absolutely correct. It was immediately apparent that years of modification had moved the performance of the cars way out of the performance envelope of the original cars. Since then, the Emergency Variable Load Valves for the entire fleet have been re-calibrated. There are safeguards too. Periodically, System Safety will pull a train in, randomly,and subject it to a series of stopping distance checks. If it fails, that shop's entire fleet will be checked.
The TA's own internal report on the Williamsburg Bridge wreck.
R42 as tested after the accident: 30 MPH=396 feet
R42 as design spec: 30 MPH=253 feet
THEY MURDERED THAT MAN!
I REFUSE TO READ ANY ONE DEFEND THE INDEFENSIBLE!
The facts don't lie. Don't tell me that increasing weight and lowering brake cylinder pressures would keep the same rates. The CED engineers didwht they did with the full knowledge that it would lengthen stops. THAT'S WHAT THEY WANTED!
I may be off a few feet on the 396 number. The book I'm refering to is at the Union hall. But I do remember it was OVER 300 feet.
The NTSB and the PTSB also stated the same thing. it was not a secret. However, since then, the emergency variable load pressures have been increased.
There is no need for "Cyber-Screaming", Erik. Most people are aware of the facts of the incident. There was culpability on both sides. However, if your mind is closed to all the facts then let's discuss none of them.
My apologies, if the caps come across as screaming. There's no provision for italics, with web tv. That's the actual feeling I was trying to convey. I did not wish it to seem like I was exasperated.
I don't think my mind is closed. What do you mean
"culpability on both sides"? How many sides are here?
Look, we both know that J relay mods, brought stopping distances up. The buildup of track lubricator oil on wheel flanges plays a part too.
I do readily admit that now, after the field shunt mod, things are slow enough to take into account the new braking rates.
So OK, the brakes are safe, now. But don't tell me all those college educated geniuses, couldn't figure out that what they were doing wasn't going to have negative and even dangerous effects.
I love this little railroad. I admire some of the achievement's that have been made in the last decade. I just don't like the direction things are going in. Maybe that's progress. I don't know.
Forgive me if I come off fanatical. Using SubTalk allows me the freedom to express thngs I can't at work. Some times not even at union meetings. Some people don't care. Others don't understand. Others will use it against me. So I rail off here.
Thanks Steve. No hard feelings.
Erik
Calm down guys. You guys need to run the tests in emergency braking using a calibrated decelerometer and an axle speed counter. Record this on a chart for velocity vs distance and a chart of velocity vs deceleration (MPHPS) and then you guys can talk facts. I have the new control lines for Willy B. and the control lines are much longer than before accident of June, 1995.
I'm not un-calm. Tests, similar to the ones you suggest, are done periodically (frequently). I'll only become 'un-calm' if one of my trains fails the test.
Contrary to what has been suggested in a previous post, safety is a prime consideration in the NYCT operation. Unfortunately,in the past, engineers re-engineered the cars in a systems way, failing to see the whole car. So too have operational decisions been made that trade a certain amount of perceived safety in exchange for ptoductivity (such as OPTO). Mistakes were made. Mistakes are being corrected. I ride these trains every day. My wife rides occassionally as do my grand-children, brothers and other family members. They are as mechanically safe as we have a right to expect. Unfortunately, some people take 'productivity' work rule changes and try to make them a safety issue. In my view, these people, despite their (good intent) are acting irresponsibly by portraying the system as unsafe and refusing to consider published facts.
OPTO and 'productivity' work rule changes have nothing to do with safety. If you trip at red signal you MUST stop before the rear end of a leading train which is located on the immediate other side of the IJ of red signal behind the lead train. THIS MUST HAPPEN UNDER THE WORST CASE CONDITIONS INCLUDING SLIPPERY TRACK. The NYCTA signal system is design in accordance with it's block design for stopping distance based on 135% of worst case braking distance. On MARTA we consider the train stopping at 1/2 brake rate from full service conditions. This is because the cab signal penalty is for a full service brake rate and not emergency. We also test every track circuit and every speed command before we place it into revenue service for the first time with a calibrated train.
On NYCT, if you trip you must stop without rear collision even if the Motorman is not paying attention. END OF SUBJECT.
I didn't mean to imply that OPTO and productivity changes are unsafe. I meant to suggest that some are using the OPTO argument to imply that the NYCT is not really concerned with safety.
Having said that, I am afraid that I was a bit confused by your explanation of the NYCT Signal System design criteria. Could you possibbly simplify it so a person who is signal illiterate as I am will understand it.
Thank You
The trains, as they are NOW are safe. Before the field shun coil mods was different.
And I don't imply. The TA could care less about safety. From the top of my head I could name ten reasons why they're Not "serious about safety"
It's about saving money. Nothing else.
Hmm. As an outsider, unfamiliar with the technical facts except what I can read here...
But rather familiar with the safety record of the TA, ie, the number of accidents over the past years....
I'd say you are painting with a pretty broad brush there. The TA is a large organization, and if you make statements such as "The TA could care less about safety" it seems like one heck of a generalization!
I don't mean to say that TA want's people to get hurt. What I mean is that the priority system is screwed. Saving money is often the paramount concern. That whole campaign
"We're Serious About Safety" it's really about reducing the cost of accidents. If I get hurt, the TA has to pay me workman's comp. They have to pay some one to cover my job.
They have to incur a wide range of expenses.
If they were really serious, then the little things that have gone on for years would have been addressed long ago.
Ever wonder that for 30 years, there are still no grab irons on the #2 ends of R40's?
RTO puts up posters warning train crews to get enough rest. Then they write regular work programs that work ten hours. Four or five trips. Barely ten minutes between runs. Do that to an air line pilot, yeah.
So, my point is, that it's just about money. Not about people.
If it was about people, then there would be no OPTO, there would be 4 car trains running every 10 minutes at 3 in the morning. The crowded platforms would all have platform conductors.
I could go on and on.
"We're Serious About Safety" it's really about reducing the cost of accidents. If I get hurt, the TA has to pay me workman's comp. They have to pay some one to cover my job.
The TA does have to pay worker's Comp. as you say BUT the TA is also pays 'differential pay'. For those of you who don't know what that is, that's the difference between the worker's comp. amount and the injured employee's actual salary. You see, at the TA, injured employees are virtually always made (financially) whole. In addition, employees who lose their ability to perform their duties due to a major illness (such as heart disease) but who can come to work, will be diven modified assignments AT FULL SALARY.
I'd be interested in hearing how many, employed in the private sector, work for an employer who will do that for their hourly employees. How many employers pay full differential? How many employers keep virtually totally disabled employees on the payroll at full salary. To illustrate, I have a cleaner who, because of medical resrictions, can't clean trains in the yard, he can't clean trains in the shop. He can't clean trains in the station. He can't clean trains - period. He's paid almost $19 an hour to sit on a chair in an air conditioned office and answer the phone. By the way, he gets Sunday and Monday off. Yup - it's all about money.....
What's wrong with an employer living up to it's responsibility? If the employee is found at fault, then typically the differential pay is denied.
I can name several instances where an employee was on the clock, and walking out to his train in the yard. The conductor or motorman (it's happend to both) would fall and be injured. Transit then tries to worm out of paying, by claiming the employee wasn't performing the duties of his title!
TA in it's infinate cheapness would rather save a few bucks out of it's mega budget. Never mind that a family could be evicted from it's home. The diff pay over two months adds up to what? $2000? A small % to TA. The difference to either moving in with Grandma, or living in you own home to the Conductor with three kids.
Now's where we go into the personal responsibility part. Yes, the employee should have to suffer some of the consequenses of what happened. The pain. The loss of mobility. Etc.
And if the private sector can't( no one expects Mom & Pop Deli to) or won't pay differential pay, does that make it right?
The cleaner who's got the restricted duty job, he should be given a different title. Perhaps as an aide, or a clerical assistant. I don't think he should continue to do the job and be paid the exorbatant wage he's been getting though. The TA owes that man for his dedicated years of service. He got up every day for years and came to work. So now because he's hurt, the TA is just going to throw him out with the garbage? Don't you think he deserves more respect than that?
Yes the unions of this country can be at times, their own worst enemy. But who gave them these concessions?
We digress here. The issue was air brakes, and safety. Don't obviscate. Address the other things too. Not just the ones that you have answers that you like.
"The issue was air brakes, and safety. Don't obviscate. Address the other things too. Not just the ones that you have answers that you like."
Erik:
you are badgering the witness. I'll be happy to discuss issues such as air brake but if 'people' are gonna make claims, I like to know their sources just like I try to state the sources of my 'facts'. As for my info about the brake cylinder dimensions, this was my point:
The car in question was essentially not changed. It was delivered 2 ways, with cast iron shoes and composition shoes. Because of the composition shoes better characteristics, they had to reduce the brake cylinder size to maintain an equivalent brake effort. Sounds like that is safer to me.... I will concede one thing, I believe that removing inshot was a mistake - but I'm not a PE and wasn't given a vote.
Yes, but if they felt the need to reduce the size of the cylinder, then why ALSO reduce brake cylinder pressure?
Reduce costs!
Flat wheels.
Brake shoe wear.
Law suits, from falls after hard emergency stops.
What's wrong with an employer living up to it's responsibility? If the employee is found at fault, then typically the differential pay is denied.
I can name several instances where an employee was on the clock, and walking out to his train in the yard. The conductor or motorman (it's happend to both) would fall and be injured. Transit then tries to worm out of paying, by claiming the employee wasn't performing the duties of his title!
TA in it's infinate cheapness would rather save a few bucks out of it's mega budget. Never mind that a family could be evicted from it's home. The diff pay over two months adds up to what? $2000? A small % to TA. The difference to either moving in with Grandma, or living in you own home to the Conductor with three kids.
Now's where we go into the personal responsibility part. Yes, the employee should have to suffer some of the consequenses of what happened. The pain. The loss of mobility. Etc.
And if the private sector can't( no one expects Mom & Pop Deli to) or won't pay differential pay, does that make it right?
The cleaner who's got the restricted duty job, he should be given a different title. Perhaps as an aide, or a clerical assistant. I don't think he should continue to do the job and be paid the exorbatant wage he's been getting though. The TA owes that man for his dedicated years of service. He got up every day for years and came to work. So now because he's hurt, the TA is just going to throw him out with the garbage? Don't you think he deserves more respect than that?
Yes the unions of this country can be at times, their own worst enemy. We brought things like OPTO and WEP's on our selves. In the private sector cleaners in offices make what $7 hr? I'm going to get heat for this but CTA's do make too much. Motormen and Conductors are well paid. I'd take 0.0% in the next contract, if I could get new bathrooms at the terminals. Or a guranteed one hour for lunch. Or an end to built in over time. Unions in America worked hard for the 8hr day. Why do we give it back?
We digress here. The issue was air brakes, and safety. Don't obviscate. Address the other things too. We covered this, now get back to what this began with.
The MTA has traditionally shunted its older trains off to the Eastern Division lines over the past 60 years. The R-16s are the only trains to debut on the Eastern Division since unification, and since nothing on the B division is more than 35 years old right now, it was either going to be ther R-32s or the R-40, R-40M and R-42s that moved over to the J, L. M and Z.
The isolation of the L and the ability to test the signals there is probably the only reason the R-143s will (supposedly) show up on the Eastern Division first. And no matter how old and how slow they get (they can get slower?), the R-44s and the R-68s will never show up there because of the curves at Marcy Ave., Crescent St. and at on the L working its way around Newtown Creek.
Even if the R-44s and R-68s can make it past 40 years of service, the MTA will have no choice but to leave them pretty much on the lines they're on right now (though I'm sure somehow by 2020 the G will be visited by one or both of those trains)
the current thinking with regard to R143 is that CBTC(Communication Based Train Control) signals with the possibility of automatic train operation will more than likely come to the L line first.
You're right - the Eastern Division has been sort of a dumping ground for old equipment. The R-7s and R-9s ended their careers there, as did the BMT standards and R-16s, which essentially went full circle. They debuted on the Eastern Division, spent time elsewhere, and returned there in their twilight years. Had there not been weight restrictions on the old elevated portion of the Jamaica line, the Triplexes might have ended up there, too.
If braking distance has indeed suffered because of different brake shoes and reduced pressure, then common sense would dictate reduced speeds, disappointing as that may be. At least I can say I was lucky enough to be around when the R-10s ruled on the A and the express dash up CPW was pure excitement.
The only reason TODAY a subway car can reach any speed above 40 mph is the train operator ability to go through time control areas and down grade also on level track PERIOD. according to bulletins after modification top speed on tangent track(level) is 40 mph with lower speed achieved on curves and uphill grades.
> Trains such as R-40 and R-42 may beat out other trains in speed a
> little but they are poor quality trains.
Not in terms of their MDBF. Isn't the MDBF on these cars the best its been in a long time (didn't the R-40 slants recently go over 100K miles before a failure?)
> Why do you suppose they are on the eastern division mostly. They are
> loud, noisy, shaky, and have uncomfortable seats.
I've never noticed how loud they are. And the seats, I will agree with you there. Very uncomfortable.
> [the] R-68, R-46, and R-44, they are quiet, steady trains. Their
> seat configuration are much better also.
Yes, this is true, too. They were built with soundproofing where earlier cars weren't. And their larger size gives the perception of roominess.
> And as a tourist or outsider riding the MTA, R-44, R-68 would give
> them a better impression because of their appearance as compare to
> the stumpy, ugly, and old-fashion looking R-40s, R-42s.
The R-44s never gave me a good impression. They always seem to be dirtier than the other cars. Maybe it's just me. Personally, I think a train of R-32s pulling up would give an outsider a good impression. More importantly, if the train shows up on time as scheduled and gets you to your desintation on time or goes where you need to go, that would leave a better impression than the model subway car that provided the service.
> C'mon, u want speed, drive a convertible, its the subways for crying
> out loud.
If you want to get people out of cars, you have to make the service fast and efficient. There's nothing wrong in having trains go a little faster. Chicago's subway routinely reaches 55 mph in spots. Philly's is even faster. The Red Line in Boston runs pretty fast, too.
And when you ride on a R-68 coming out of the 60th St tunnel into Queensborough Plaza, it feels as if the train will barely make it up the hill. The other cars, while they do slow down too because of the upgrade, don't seem to slow as much.
> the MTA need nice trains on "showcase lines" like 1 where alot of
> business people take and A where outsider take.
How would you define a "showcase" line?
--Mark
(How do you define a showcase line). If the Astoria Line (N) is extended to LaGuardia, and becomes the first thing visitors see of NY, then it becomes THE showcase line. It would have to be the cleanest, queitest, prettiest, best policed on the system.
>I've never noticed how loud they are.
Then you must be deaf. Honestly, I can't even hear myself talk in those trains, in fact I can't even hear my thoughts!
Chicago's L trains are louder in the subway sections than anything New York has to offer.
I take special note of Slant R40 whenever I ride them, and if one exhibits flaws or glaring defects, I would naturally make note of it. The last Slant I was on that had problems was #4254-4255 on the "Q", suffering from a case of flat wheels, back in Dec. 1998. Others have had A/C out (#4406-4407 back in June 98), #4266-4267 had a case of the jitters on the "N" back in Oct. 1998, making bumping and rattling sounds beneath the floor. Lately, however, they have been in fine shape, at least the ones I've ridden on. Smooth acceleration, smooth ride, not too much noise. The seats - yes, they're uncomfortable, but so are those of R32, R38, R42, all those that have bench seats.
I guess I just like the R40s too much...
Wayne
But can we blame you for liking the R40s so much. They are a great fundamental car.
R32 & R38 cars have much better back support than the R40 & R42.
I don't think R32 & 38 better than R40 & 42 but i would said R62 & 62a are better than other Subway Cars and it fastest. Im going to tell you who is fastest and who is slowest
#1 R62 & 62a - that the fastest & smooth
#2 R26,28,29,33 and 36- Whoa im going to miss these trains.
#3 R40 & 42 - I would said ok but alway slow between Willy Bridge to J.C.
#4 R44 & 46 - 50/50 but fastest in Queen Blvd
#5 R68 & 68a- I don't understand these trains
#6 R32 & 38 - that the slowest and make too much noisy
I wouldn't say the R-32s and R-38s are the slowest. Not by a long shot. Either one (or two) of them can outrun the R-68s and R-44s.
When the R-32s were new, not many cars could outrun them. The R-10s, maybe. Those were the good old days.
Hi all,
Due to number of requests on how to make their own NYC Subway maps, some have no idea where to start!
I've provided a base map of the NYC Subway map which is based on 1967-1969 NYC Subway Map because the reason why I choose 1967-1969 map is because of wide spacing between lines rather than my current subway map and think all of you can handle this map.
I also would very much like to see the map you'll be designing out of my base map.
All I ask is to leave my name and email address in the lower left part of the map.
Please send request for base map to adler1969@aol.com and I'll send you file attachment "your-map.gif"
Cheers,
Michael Adler
Hi,
I've noticed on the 4/5 lately that there appears to be new "wooden" flooring on some silver trains. I also got into one the other day that had a completely black floor.
--Peter
I believe that black floor is on car 1391, the car that was in Fulton St fire..... Wooden floors? Thats a new one.......
Sorry, I didn't mean actual wood. It's some type of fake wood-looking floor covering.
--Peter
It's Pergo from the Home Depot...I guess the Ikea folks are at it again... :)
-Hank
PS, Did we figure out where the subway scenes in 'The Matrix' were filmed? Looked like Chicago to me...
-Hank
Just saw Coming to America with Eddie Murphy. Excellent movie. Nice subway shots. Shot of E train of R32's(Miss those orange doors!!). Also a shot a Broadway El in Bklyn(After watching this movie about 25 times finally figured this one out, showed a sign of Hooper St in Williamsburg which gave it away.) I thought it was the Astoria line but it did not look like an Astoria station. I believe the train leaving the station is R27/30 cars.
E train??? I don't remember an E train (or R-32's) in Coming to America, but may I'm having a temporary memory block. I do remember the R-38's.
Wayne
It must be R38, but I know that was an E train at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
If you're referring to the train that Eddie Murphy and the young lady (I forget her name) was riding - Yes, that's a R-38, prior to rebuilding of course.
Wayne
I still miss those orange doors. I believe her name is Shari Headley. She been a couple of movies after that. You are right, it is a train of R38's. I think I remember the car numbers.
Yes, that's her name.. Thanks. You miss the orange doors, but I miss the original all blue interiors. I was very young at the time, but I can remember R-32/38/40/42 (and R-33/36WF) with their blue interiors.
Wayne
I also miss the all blue interiors on the R-3x series, and the low-beltline windows on the R-4x series.
But what I thought was artificial in "Coming to America" was the thumping sound of the doors closing. The movie was on cable not too long ago (don't remember which channel), and the sound caught my attention. It doesn't even have the sound common after the red "door open" lights on the outside of the cars (blue light inside) shut off.
They most likely dubbed in those sounds. If you've seen Crocodile Dundee II, you may have noticed the ding-dong door chime sounds as the doors closed on that A train of R-38s. We all know the R-38s don't have door chimes.
I also remember the blue band at the belt rail on the R-38s, and, of course, the blue doors on the R-32s.
How about the days when only one of the two doors would open. People would try to squeeze on and off.
It still happens occasionally - last time I observed this phenomenon it was on R68 #2918 on the "N" back on March 27 - the right side of the train, only one door panel opened on the last two doors. Minor inconvenience.
Wayne
I remember that scene. I think that scene was shot at Hoyt-Schermerhorn - and that there just happened to be an R-46 in the station at the time.
Wayne
The street scene going into the subway was at 75th Avenue, the token booth area was Van Wyck Blvd., the platform was Hoyt-Schermerhorn. And yes, that was the Broadway-Brooklyn el in the background. The station was Hewes Street.
hey y'all,
now i know it may sound weird but i was lookin' around on ebay.com and i searched for stuff from the new york city subway. I found that there were a lot of old roll signs and destination signs for sale. I wanna buy one but they are all expensive on ebay. Do any of you know where i could pick one up (possibly by cataloge or something) or pick up some other intersting new york subway stuff
Thanx
Matt