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It's been a few years now since the signals on the entire stretch of elevated tracks on the J/Z line have been replaced. I'm wondering if the work being done on the WillyB will also include signal replacement along the stretch of tracks on the bridgespan. If so, it'll be good to up the speed a bit for trains crossing the bridge.
-GarfieldA
It has to, as the entire support structure is being replaced. Whether it leads to improvements is another matter entirely.
-Hank
The "WillyB" is a clever name for the Williamsburg Bridge. Union Switch & Signal has the contract to resignal the WillyB. It will totally resignaled on the Bridge. I don't know what is being done with GT signals however, I will get a copy of the control lines from US & S. I will let you know.
I suspect that the Williamsburg Bridge signals are still original, or were replaced with similar ones at some point. At any rate, they were geared, so to speak, to the BMT standards, whose acceleration and braking rates were vastly different from today's equipment.
As for speed, I'd love to see speeds come back up to at least 40 mph from the present 35, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
I wonder why there is a new bagged not in service signal on J1 track on the WillyB between J1 116 & J1 118?
Well, yesterday, I was finally able to take the long awaited trip to NYC. And with yesterday's crummy weather, the subway was the only way to get around.
Our trip began from the IND Penn Station/34th St stop. Between the three FunPasses bought at first, only mine worked every time( the others, for my son and his friend, malfunctioned later).
We caught a 'C' train of R-38's to 72nd St(which was all but abandoned)and then off to the72ndSt.stationat theBroadway IRT.
On the way there and in the station, people kept asking me how to get toTimes Square(this was happening all day,what happened there?)
At 72nd, the first FunPass failure. My son's friend went to use his and it wouldn't register( it was more than18 minutes since it was used last)and had to get some information from the station attendant. While there, a man said he could sell him a box of FunPasses for $10(the first of two flask-brandishing folks we encountered).
Briskly sweeping him away and paying the fare, we got down to the platform and got a #2 train of Redbirds but of course it was stuck. We caught the next #1.
After breakfast at Tom's(the Seinfeld diner), we took the 'C' down to Times Square( the downtown #1 didn't stop at 110th yesterday).
After navigating the complex maze(and seeing the R-110B on the 'A' and odd signs in the 8th-7th Avenue walkway["Leave the Pain"..."Do it again"]) we handled business, I bought some film, and we took a train of Slant-40's on the 'N' to the WTC(there was no 'R' and no trains north of 57/7th).
After the ride, we walked around downtown a bit( yes, in the rain), took the #4 and #6 to Grand Central and the shuttle toTimes Square.
Later, I was able to ride to 21 St. On the ride to Queens I noticed after I believe Roosevelt Island what looked like a connecting tunnel. Does anyone know what that was?
At the station we got out to see a bit of Queens, and came back.Then the second flask-wielding loudmouth came at us.
We got on theManhattan-bound platform,butallthetrainscametotheQueens-boundplatform.The man started yelling at screaming at us("That's the wrong platform, you idiots! Get your a**es over here!").
Once we finally got back to Manhattan, we got another 'N'(we got 'N's of Slant-40's, 46's and 68's)and proceeded home.
The trip would have been better minus the rain.
The line which goes to Roosevelt Island and 21st-Queensbridge will eventually be tied into the IND Queens line. The connector is presently under construction.
Apparently the 63rd St. shuttle was still in operation, using the Queens-bound track only. Unless anything has changed, R-32s are being used.
As to how to get to Times Square from 72nd and Broadway, that's a piece of cake: any southbound train will do. If you're an express addict like myself, it's the 2 or 3. Nice, fast run, too. What happened to those poor Redbirds on the 2?
I remember being in the city on a rainy Saturday in 1979. My sister and I ended up taking numerous one-stop subway rides that day, at 50 cents a pop.
On Saturday, I took a #2 ofall redbirds(and a #6-but it ran express from Union Square to Grand Central-and what was up with that descent after Union Square?)
What descent?
I'm trying to get hold of a 1972 NY subway map -- that's the one that had a modern style and the subway lines bore only a vague correlation with the actual lines they represented. Please let me know if you've got one in decent condition and how much you'd like for it. Thanks.
-AT
I have one. Monday, 7/31/72. It was a new style map. It should be in brand new condition.
Who keeps using these names from "The Simpsons"??:):)
Your giant squishee is making a mockery of our selve serve policy!
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=74644158
Use the above link to Ebay.com. You will find the map up for auction. Bid is currently $4.99.
All this recent talk about subway movies ... it would be cool if each of the last several decades in the subway's life could be summed up with taglines (single-sentence descriptions). How about these:
The 1950s - Glory Years.
The 1960s - Cracks in the Foundation.
The 1970s - Descent into Hell.
The 1980s - Slow Climb to Daylight.
The 1990s - Stability ... or Stagnation?
I don't think I'd characterize the 1950s as "Glory Years" for the subway--that was the time the City got forced into surrendering control of its transit system to the TA, probably the worst thing that has ever happened to public transportation in New York City. The first results of the takeover were to cancel the citizens' votes in favor of the bond issue to build the Second Avenue subway (though the DeKalb/Chrystie part did get done years later), the Nostrand Avenue extension, rebuilding of the 42nd Street Shuttle, other improvements, and to begin steady cutting of non-rush hour expresses all over the City. We could also include the loss of the last trolley lines in Brooklyn and the trolley coaches a bit later. There were positive things like the opening of Rockaway, maybe the Culver recapture, and the 60th Street-Queens Boulevard connection, but those were left-over City projects. The only positive thing the TA ever on its own, IMHO, was to reduce the midnight BMT headways to 20 minutes.
The mid- to late-1940s (despite the loss of all the el lines) had a real optimism, despite what Robert Moses did to kill extensions to the airports and elsewhere. There were real plans to continue expansion, and there was finally some imagination in the appearance of new cars--the R-10s, R-12s, R-14s, R-15s, and the experimental R-11s.
The City never did anything as dumb as what we've seen with the construction of the 63rd Street tunnel, built with no real idea of what it was supposed to do.
Bring back the Board of Transportation (not under this mayor, though)!
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
You may be right about the 1950s and the subway. I suppose the first signs of decline were visible in that decade, although things wouldn't get really bad for some time.
There seems to be a sense that the 1950s were "Glory Years" for the city in general - indeed, for the entire country. Whether that's really true is another matter, it was before my time so I can't speak from experience.
By the way, speaking of decades, depending on when the R-142 and R-143 cars are delivered, it looks as if the 1990s will be the first decade in which there were NO new car types placed in service :-(
What is your favorite subway line? My favorite subway line is the "A". Not only because it is the longest, but the vast terrain and track work that this line run on. Duke Ellington pick the right train for his song.
It's the 4 & 5 for me. I just love those Lex Ave express runs, even though there not as much fun these days. The D used to be at the top of my list in the days when it was the Brighton Express.
Wayne
My favorite line to ride is the No.5 Line during the morning Rush Hour like about 6:30 AM its a fast ride. I did a 3 tripper out of Dyre. But I Like the ride from E 238 to Flatbush. I just don't like oking a train in the Yard at 5:00 AM. My favorite line to work is the No.6 because you don't know what train your going to take out. It could be a R 29 R 33 R 36WF or R 62 and the supervisers are great.
My favorite is, and always be the "A" train.
Why?? I play a song by Billy Joel "The Night Is Still Young", when I get to the Rockaway bridges.
With regards,
Stuart D. "Pelham 1:23" Guberman
My favorite is the D because it goes to fun places in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and the Bronx (Prospect Park, the Village, and Yankee Stadium for example). It gives a beautiful view of Manhattan from the Manhattan Bridge and of the Atlantic Ocean and Coney Island. It's a 24 hour express in Manhattan (is it the only one?) and it's rapped about by the Beastie Boys.
At this time the D and #2 are the only 24 hour expresses. I'm guessing the E train will become a 24 hours express again when the construction around QP is completed???
In Queens, perhaps. The E has never run express 24/7 in Manhattan; it used to during rush hours when it went out to Brooklyn.
Don't get me started on the E. That's all I'm going to say on that.
I didn't realize we were talking about 24 hour expresses in Manhattan. I thought it was 24 hour expresses period. That's what I was referring to (Queens), especially since the E train express service in Manhattan ended over 20 years ago.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yes, I would imagine we'll see a return to 24/7 express operation for the E in Queens - at least between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave.
2 is the other 24 hour express.
2 is the other 24 hour express. Besides the 4 train is always in rap songs too, if you want to go there.....
My favorite Subway Line is because it go fast on Rush Hour and i would never take the Express like and because it all way back up at lexington ave express line during rush hour.
You have a point there: locals zoom along for the most part while expresses creep along in some places. Even so, I'm still a diehard express addict, and will not take a local unless I have to.
My favorite line is the .
It is serpentine, with lots of sharp curves, above and below ground.
It has several unusual stations (Morgan, Wilson, Broadway Junction, Atlantic, East 105).
It has Dual Contracts, Contract 3, IND, BRT and modern architectures.
It has some of the most beautiful mosaics found anywhere in the system.
AND -
It runs six full consists of classic Slant R40s.
It has an overall good subway "feel" to it.
Wayne
... And ....
It's the subject of the next tour offered by the NY Transit Museum this coming weekend.
--Mark
Unfortunately, it is sold out, so I am told. I would have loved to have gone.
Wayne
The feeling is mutual. The A has been my favorite line ever since September of 1967; the D comes in second. The real heyday for the A was when the immortal R-10s thundered their way along that route. Nothing could top a jaunt up CPW on a A train of rip-roaring R-10s. IMHO, the departure of the R-10s could only be compared to the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn.
As most Subtalkers know, my Jeep's license plates say 8AVEXP in honor of the A line. Someone finally got the connection with New York a couple of months ago.
Gentlemen (and any ladies looking in) my vote for best line believe it or not goes to the 5 in the IRT. An express run through Brooklyn,express up the east side, express to East 180 in the PM rush and then the long stretches between stations up to Dyre make that seem like express too.
In the B Division, how about the Q. Express all the way. And there is nothing like coming down the hill into Newkirk. That can put hair on your chest.
The Brighton line is definitely my favorite express run. It is the only 4 track express run outside. It maybe a pain to the E.16 neighborhood. But as mentioned earlier, where else can you see all four trains running at the same time above ground?
[The Brighton line is definitely my favorite express run. It is the only 4 track express run outside]
I enjoy that express run as well except that the Q really doesn't go very fast compared to the Lex Expresses. I prefer speed over beauty when it comes to express trains.
While that may be true to some extent, you have to remember that any sort of run in a confined space such as a tunnel will always seem faster than a run in an open space at the same speed. Now, the dash out to the Rockaway line may be an exception, at least back in the days of the R-10s on the A.
Anyway, the slant R-40s on the Q are certainly not slowpokes.
Just for the record, I took a ride on the upper Lexington last fall to experience the highly-touted express run, and was sorely disappointed. None of the trains I took exceeded 30 mph.
[my vote for best line believe it or not goes to the 5]
[In the B Division, how about the Q]
Subway lines that are not 24 hours cannot be the best line. A 24 hour run is a necessary requirement for a line to be considered the best.
My favourite line? The J between Broad St and Jamaica Center. Why? Historical significance, the decrepit Chambers Street station, the jaunt over the Willie B, the rocky elevated ride through Brooklyn & Queens, the turn of the century stations east of Broadway / East New York, the interchange with the M at Myrtle Ave and that massive interchange and the ENY yard at Broadway/Easy New York.
My favourite used to be the West End Line but now with the R-68s supplying service, phooey!
--Mark
[My favourite line? The J between Broad St and Jamaica Center. Why? Historical significance, the decrepit Chambers Street station, the jaunt over the Willie B, the rocky elevated ride through Brooklyn & Queens, the turn of the century stations east of Broadway / East New York, the interchange with the M at Myrtle Ave and that massive interchange and the ENY yard at Broadway/Easy New York.]
Hear, hear, I like the J too! And don't forget the descent into the new (in subway terms) tunnel at the line's eastern end.
When was track 2 on the Times Square Shuutle used? Why was it abandoned and are parts of this track still found in the tunnel?
You must be new to this site. The Times Square Shuttle is a remnant of the original 1904 subway line. When the lines were rearranged in 1918, following additional construction, this piece of the original line was converted into the shuttle you see today. There is much additional information about the history of the subway - when lines were constructed, re-routed, etc. - on this site; I recommend you take the time to read the entire site, beginning with the history section. You will find it well worth your time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Although Track 2 is no longer in use, the rails are still in place along most of the trackway.
I am looking for a computer font (preferably TrueType) that emulates the style of station signs (wall signs, too) that were built during the 1930's- 1960's.
If anyone out there can accomodate me, please respond, and indicate where I can acquire the font.
Thank You
Stuart D. "Pelham 1:23" Guberman
Should the No.1/9 Skip Stops stay or go. Well it all depends on how you talk to. If you talk to a Rider at 242 St or 231 St they would agree with it. If you talk to someone at 225 St and Dickman St witch have bad crowd conditions they Dislike it. You see a half empty train pass you stop. If you talk to the Train Crews there mixed. We all agree that you save no time but there are some stops on the No 1 Line crews hate to stop at. I hate Dickman because its too packed but so if I run a No.9 its alittle less crawded. But I don't like 145 St because of the Homeless. Know some people say you save 5 mins. Yah if you violare the rulebook. Your suppose to leave at 15 MPH. I enter and leave at 10 MPH. I got in trouble once for flying passed 225 St. So I go slower.
Got to go I will complete this in 20 Mins.
I will rewite the last few lines.
Now some poeple say they save 5 Mins. You can if you violate the rulebook. Your suppose to leave the station at 15 MPH if your skiping it. I was passed 225 ST at 25 MPH and the TSS confronted me so I enter and leave all skiped stations at 10 MPH. Now when we have trains bunched up together its not really bad because the trains keep moving. Know there was a Dispachor that was known to allow 3 No.9 trains to go back to back. I found myself to be the 3rd No.9 lots of times. I would then make all stops. That was my own desision. The tower never ordered me to make all stops. I wrote a G2 to the affect and hasn't happened since.(A G2 is a written Report that goes to your Supervisers)
When I suggested that the skip-stop was not such a splendid idea because it only saves a few minutes, I meant it as a strictly operational point of view. I know of plenty of places around the system that should be skip stopped permanently because of the clientel such as the skels and crackheads.
You'd love Chicago's skip-stop service, at least the one I'm familiar with. Trains do not slow down when they skip a station; they just keep right on going without so much as a beep-beep, beep-beep. In fact, I've never heard a Chicago L train honk for anything; I'm not even sure if those trains have horns at all.
If we didn't have to slow up Skip Stop might be very affective in NYC.
Yes your right I would enjoy Chicago. I never been there.
Being a South Bend native, I used to go to Chicago quite often; however, it wasn't until two weeks before we moved to Jersey that I rode the L for the first tme. In general, the trains run faster there than in New York, especially in the subway portions. And then there's the noise! If you thought the R-10s were loud, that's nothing compared to a subway run in Chicago. You find yourself holding your ears.
In regards to Chicago trains skipping stations at speed......the Ta has a task force working on increasing the speed of trains bypassing stations. I'm sure it will have to modify the signals entereing stations which are now for the most part yellow (because the station car stop marker is considered the red).
Has anyone seen the new advertising poster (I saw one on the PATH) for the Knicks? It's a sort of photo montage of various New York things. One of the photos is an R1-9 type "D" train. I'm wondering if the picture came from this site but haven't gotten a memorable enough look. (Not that I care too much, but it would be cool if it could be identified :-)
-Dave
I've seen those ads on the LIRR. It actually puzzles me why the ad agency used a picture of a 1930s-vintage subway when the taxis shown in the ad are modern types. Why not use a contemporary subway - or old Checker cabs?
During the Grammys, I saw (twice) a new ad for SONY - and, lo and behold, there was R42 #4919! Neat special effects inside the car
and a shot of it pulling away (couldn't make out the station).
I thought it was a Slant at first (noting the grab bar behind the cab)
but next time I saw the unit number, and that's consistent - the NYCT R42 GOH cars (4840-4949) have the R40 style grab bars behind the cabs.
Wayne
Wayne, I just thought I'd throw this in for good measure:
While riding home last night on my usual 6:06 M-1 I saw this poster screaming that "The Knicks are back!" (making reference to the end of the strike). It had a b-ball in the center with different images of the city around it. One of those images was a subway car -- but not one we have seen in YEARS! They used an R-1 type! I thought it pretty weird, but then realized that whomever made the poster probably got the image from some generic "clip-art" company that only had vintage cars.
Doug aka BMTman
Whats your favorite Term. Mind would have to be Stillwell on the BMT.For the IRT I would have to pick 148 ST Lenox Term. Because of the Yard being next to the station and a great view of Yankee Stadium across the Harlem River.
(Hmm, maybe the Translator has a point. I did delete that thread about grammar because I thought it was pretty rude but I'm sure we could all spend a second proof-reading before we hit Submit. It would lend a more professional atmosphere to the board, I do agree... I try not to say anything but as a once-upon-a-time English major it's hard :-)
Ok It looks like a messed up with the topic. This will be my last post.
Well you say its your last post. Why because maybe you feel your being picked on for your Grammer. Its not perfict but its readable.(I'm not that good either). But you are informitive. So come back soon. Dave Pirmann did't mean what he said in a bad way. I don't realy post much I just read them but I had to respond to this.
I did mention that I was not going to post hear anymore because of all the fuss over my Grammer. Well I reseived lot of email telling my to come back and how i'm a good conributer. Thank you all I can't let my supporters down. Specal Thanks to Chris,Joe and Simon.
I will try to Improve on my grammer.
Most of the people who say anything about your grammar are doing it for your benefit, not to pick on you.
There are some rude posters and Dave was absolutely right to delete them.
We know that you'll try and we'll all try to be a little more understanding.
Nice to have you back with us, David. Your posts are very informative! One of the great things about SubTalk is that it allows us "enthusiasts" to interact with the professionals who make the system work every day. I know I've learned a tremendous amount, and it helps my appreciation for what is in my opinion the greatest mass transit system in the world.
When I left New York in the late 50's after spending most of my young life in the shadow of the Jamaica Line on Crescent Street, I was still wondering what the purpose was of the third track. In those days there was a center track on Crescent Street with access switches from both mains in the vicinity of Campus Place. This third track seemed to deteriorate as it went up Crescent Street toward Jamaica Avenue. It eventually came to a dead end with a small bumper at end of track. I never saw this track used except on a rare occasion when a short work train would run in there from ENY and then go back out to ENY. Maps at this site would indicate that there are now switches on this track on the Jamaica Avenue end as well as the Fulton Street end. Have they found a use for this track in the almost forty years that I have been gone? I am sort of curious.
Karl: If your referring to the center track between Crescent St and Cypress it was used during the sixties at least to turn back pm rush #14 Bway-Bklyn Lcls from Canal Street, this procedure lasted until July 1968 when the KK began service to 168 St-Jamaica. The center track is now connected at both ends to both tracks so it can function as a passing siding for trains in either direction.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks again Larry,Redbird, I was indeed referring to the middle track, I guess my use of the word third track wasn't the best choice. I think that I must have left just before all of the changes began. In my time the center track stood idle most of the time. I often wondered if the track had been idle since this had been the end of the line back in the teens.
Regards, Karl B
Karl: Please forgive me if I sounded pedantic on that last post,I'm sure either third or center track are equally applicable.Its seems that the favored terminals for the #14 was Atlantic or Canarsie, I don't think that there would have been much need for the #14's to go to Crescent prior to 1950 since the #12 Lexington provided service to 111 St in the rush. There does seems to be rush service by #14 trains to Crescent after that up until 1959 when the skip-stop service went into effect. By 1962 or a little earlier only four(+/-)pm rush round trips operated btwn Canal and Crescent.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
A more "recent" use of the middle track is to move a disable train out of the way of regular service. Since the line is really two tracked between Jamaica Center and Eastern Pkwy, that's the only area where a disabled train could go. This is the same reason why the switch just south of Brooklyn Bridge / City Hall downtown local platform was re-instituted. If there's a disabled train on the Lexington Ave line, there's no place to put it except at that spot until after the rush hours.
A third track has been installed on the Dyre Ave line for testing the R-142s. I also hear it will remain after testing because, like the Jamaica El, there's no way to bypass a disabled train on the Dyre Ave portion of the 5 line.
--Mark
Does anyone know how long the new R143's are? Some say they will be 67' and others say 60'. Which is it?
The R-143s will be absolutely, positively, definitely, no-doubt-about-it 60-footers. They will be arranged in 4-car sets (A-B-B-A). There was talk of making them 67-footers a la the R-110s, but that died early in the design process.
David
A belated thanks for that information!
Originally, the R110B, the horrible prototype for the really nice R-143 was 67 feet, right? There are still R-110 signs on some stations on the A line, telling the conductor where the doors should line up.
They also existed on the Brighton line for service on the D train, although I do not know of a revenue service run of R110B's on the D line.
I think that they were also on the culver... I didnt see that, but i heard about it
I'm going to guess that they were on the Brighton line with plans to use the 110B for a few Baseball Specials.
"Originally, the R110B, the horrible prototype for the really nice R-143 was 67 feet, right?"
What was so horrible about it? Among other things, its destination sign retained the R42-44-46-68 presentation, which is better than what the R143 sports now.
Also, which would have been advantageous to towers and supervisors, above the bullet the call letters of the train, which I think should have been the #1 feature carried over to the 141/143. I wonder why it wasn't.
Oops, first of all that should be 142, not 141, obviously.
Another great thing about that display, it told me what train I wanted to take home veryday from school, once I realized that "A1533" meant it was the 1533 out of 207th.
yeah, 4 years belated!
The R143's are not new and they are 60' long.
"The R143's are not new and they are 60' long. "
Any cars not passing their first birthday (delivery day) can be considered new. Some R143's still qualify.
I meant first anniversary of delivery day.
That's True!
The post was made way back in 1999. At that time, they were quite new (in fact so new, they weren't even in service yet!).
Oh Damn, I didn't even see that, thanks for pointing that out.
I didn't pay attention to that either!
I too didn't notice until I looked a little more carefully. I'm surprised a post would receive a reply 4 years after initial posting ;)
Yeah, and now the thread has almost 5X the original number of posts, four years later!
The R143's are not new and they are 60' long.
Uh, the thread you are responding to is from 1999, and Chris R27-R30 with yet another handle.....
I have a R143 question. I noticed lately the end destination in the C/R operating postion is lit up. Sometimes both C/R operating positions are lit up. Whats up with that?
Da Beastmaster
You mean inside the cab? They should always be lit up on both sides, its the way it was designed.
No, reread my post. The end destination sign are lit up. Im not talking about inside the cab.
Da Beastmaster
D'oh. Sorry. I noticed its also common on the 42 and 44. Maybe a bad connection in the coupler (just a guess, not a CI) on whatever connection is made to keep the signs out. I noticed also that when this happens on the 44 you cannot get both sidesign sections in sync (one will take and one will keep reverting to the setting before they fell out of sync).
I always wanted to know the following:
1. Has there ever been a R46 to Astoria on the N or the old R(RR)?
2. Why is it that on the 7 on Main Street. After the doors are
closed I would hear 2 loud buzzes(I think it's a word),
then the train proceeds. However, I don't hear these buzzes
on the rest of the journey, except on a hold and resume.
3. What is the need for the B to bypass Dekalb Ave. Is it that
much faster?
Thanks in advance
Cheers
Mike
(1) Not sure about this since I've never been a regular Astoria rider - but it probably did occur on rare occasions due to the numerous equipment swaps.
(2) The buzzer is the conductor signalling the motorman that it's safe to proceed because doors are closed and platform is clear - as long as the motorman has the correct signal indications. Also called "two to go." Usually occurs when a train is departing its origin terminal station.
(3) If the B did not bypass DeKalb there would be a big backup of trains because all would be required to stop. Also the platform would be even more crowded in the rush hours. Remember, passengers coming from mid-Manhattan (6th Ave) can board the B at the same stations as the D or Q. Passengers from lower Manhattan on the N, R, or M can transfer to the B at Pacific Street - no need to do so at DeKalb. D abd Q trains stop at DeKalb because transferring passengers do not have the Pacific Street option.
[If the B did not bypass DeKalb there would be a big backup of trains because all would be required to stop]
Except that there seems to be a bick backup anyway because the B always stops at Dekalb (albeit on the otherside of the wall, not at the platform).
[ D abd Q trains stop at DeKalb because transferring passengers do not have the Pacific Street option.]
Sure they do. Atlantic Ave and Pacific St are connected underground.
There was a previous thread that mentioned that there used to be a connection to the DeKalb bypass track form the Brighton line that was destroyed at the same time that the platforms were extended northward. The main reason the B doesn't stop at DeKalb is that to do so, it would have to cross over the Fourth Ave. local tracks to get to the DeKalb bridge tracks, thereby causing all kinds of delays on the N/R line.
When using the bridge, the N also skips Dekalb during rush hour. The R, D and Q have always made the stop, as have the B and N off peak.
The problem is that with 4 lines on the local track through Dekalb at rush hour frequency, there is just not enough capacity. Even today, with the M, N, and R on the local track and only the B going through as an express the local track can get pretty well plugged, and then there are more delays as the N switches over to become an express before Pacific St. Of course back in the BMT days with Culver, West End, Sea Beach, Brighton (local and express), Fourth Av. and various rush hour extras from the Eastern Division and the Nassau Loop converging here.
Put it this way: DeKalb was the main junction point for the entire BMT division in the olden days; all (rail)roads led to DeKalb. The real problem is the present unavailabilty of the south side bridge tracks.
The Manhattan Bridge is a disaster waiting to happen. I can see the headlines now: "Bridge Collapse in New York" and "Subway Train Plunges into East River, Paralyzes System".
The problem with Coney Island B trains stopping at DeKalb is they would ahve to merge with N & R trains as they leave the station. If a B would arrive the same time as an N or R, one of them would have to "yield".
In regard to the R-46 to Astoria, I remember once in 96, when for some reason the N needed to borrow an R-46 from the F at Stillwell to make a trip or two. The train operator who had the first scheduled trip on this train could not take the train out because he had not operated one since they were brought in in the mid 70's. He was not considered qualified. Fortunatly someone else jumped ahead to make the trip.
1. Yes I saw a R46 on the N. I saw it under a subway page. I will give address and name later....
R-46s were assigned to the N back in the late 70s, but at that time it didn't go to Astoria. I remember seeing mostly R-32s on the RR then.
When the N and R first switched in 1987, they also swapped equipment (The R got the Jamaica R-32's and 46's, and the N got the CI stuff, mainly 32's and slant 40's. Soon the 68's spilled over from the D)
Yet, right after the switch, some R-46's did run to Astoria on the N. The new signs (still the one-piece curtains, no digital yet), did have the N to both Astoria and 71st, as well as the R to 71st, so they did still run there for a while.
As far as you buzzer question, in the rule book there is a rule (with subrules) about the use of the buzzer. I don't have the Rule book in front of me but when trains leave the terminal the conductor has to close up and signal the Train Operator (T/O) with two buzzers even though the T/O might have indication.
Trains not at terminals but in a station, sometimes the conductor will buzz the T/O with a long single buzz with the doors open to let the T/O know that he will not be closing the doors soon. There might be holding lights (a dispather, tower can hold a train with a set of three orange lights) and unless the T/O sticks his head out and looks back he won't see it.
On the other hand, within a station after a station stop the Conductor could have closed the doors but the T/O still has a red signal. The T/O can signal the conductor to open up agian with a single long buzz or to close down with two.
In an EMERGANCY type situation, a train I was on overshot the stop point and the head car was not platforming (lined up with the platform). IF the doors opened, customers would fall to the tackbed. In this case the T/O held the buzzer down long and hard (your single buzz) and on the PA screamed "Don't Open Don't Open, We Didn't Platform". Even though the Conductor is responsible to check his sign board (point to it) and not open if he is not in front of it, it was a great backup.
On the Staten Island Railway (use modified Subway Cars (R44's)) they don't have the same rules as the subway but they use the buzzer to signal movement over switches. The same One Long for Stop, Two to Proceede and Three to Back Up.
At Seashore, we too follow the same buzzer/horn/whistle pattern, with one addition:
When stationary, 'three' means clear to back-up when safe. But when moving (forward), 'three' means emergency stop.
I also don't have the rule book in front of me so I can't quote the rule #s. The signal to proceed at a terminal is two long buzzes. Two short buzzes is an acknowledgement to any buzzer signal. The fact that both crew members now carry radios has made the use of the buzzer obsolete, there are some other buzzer signals.
Long-Long-Long = The signalling crew member (usually the Conductor) is looking for RCI assistance and is asking the train operator to signal via whistle or radio.
Long-Short-Long-Short = The signalling crew member is looking for police assistance.
BTW - the Whistle signals are the same as the buzzer signals.
You also might have to use Buzzer Bypass. That if Train Operator don't have inication but the conductor has it and also the other way around. You would give the T/O 2 Buzzers to proceed but usally the train goes out of service or wait Intill the Terminal. I had a situation at Pelham on an R 62 car No.1831. I was taken the 10:06 AM in the west pocket. The conductor had indication but I didn't. So an RCI and TSS ride my train. They tell me that we the Conductor gets Indication she will give 2 Buzzers and I was to hit the Bypass. This was also in passendger service. So I get to Buhre Ave I call Control and explained the Situation. So they said "Who was the TSS that know on train that told you to move out of Pelham on the Bypass. So I told them. I got Indication back at Castle Hill. So I gave Control an Update. So they told the TSS to give control a call at Parkchestor. So when I got back to Pelham I learned a that my train was not suppose to leave the Term. like that. Also the TSS,RCI,and Train Dispatchor had to write a Report and including Me and my Conductor.
Absolutely correct. A train that loses T/O indication en route will remain in service using the buzzer/bypass BUT it can't leave the terminal that way. Oddly enough, the buzzer MUST be used. You can't use the Intercom or the radio to remain in service.
Actually it is not so odd that you cannot use the radio or intercom instead of the buzzer.
The reason for not using the radio is that anyone other than the conductor out in the field can tell the motorman that he has indication. There is a chance that you don't know your conductor and anyone could sound like him/her on the radio. Also, if the battery of either the motorman or conductors radio battery is losing or has lost power, this makes it not reliable.
As for not using the intercom, i'm not sure but I guess, maybe it's the PR of it. SOmetimes the intercom (on those trains that have it) comes out over the PA and it doesn't sound so good.
I can see the point about the radio and can even visualize some jerk thinking it would be fun to 'fool' a train operator into moving before the doors are closed. I don't agree about the intercom, however. Regularly on the LIRR, you'll hear the conductor tell the engineer over the PA, "When you get the signal, you have two to go."
Correct, but the police do not know the whistle/horn signal. They are not taught that in the academy!
That brings me as a T/O to a question. If the Police don't Know the horn signals then Why does Control tell us to blow in route for police? I guess I'm just butter sitting at a station intill they show up.
All NYCT police receive training related to the subway system. The classes (some, anyway) are held in Jamaica Yard. While it's largly track safety, they do learn the radio and whistle codes. Do not take any comfort in that though. My son-in-law (A NYPD Sgt) has no clue what -0-0 means.
My rule book is in the trunk of my car so I can't "" the rule. Conductors are never to pass buzzer signals while in the station with side doors open, unless he has opened an emergency brake valve. The reason for this, as explained in school car, is the train operator could mistake the buzzer signal as signal to proceed or an electrical malfuction could cause one very long buzzer signal to sound like two long buzzer signals. Which we know is a signal to proceed. Only the Train operator is permitted to pass buzzer signals while in the station with side doors open.
I just was wondering if anyone knows if the upcoming expansion of A express and C local service in Brooklyn to the weekends in something that will last as long as the Willamsburg Bridge remains closed, or is it something permanent?
There are constant schedule changes in the TA. Nothing is permanent.
It technically is temporary, but it may stay that way. A clue is that this was proposed in 1995, long before the bridge closing was planned, and it was only killed by Pataki's budget cuts. But if they thought of it then it's something they think should be done.
The expanded service will last just for the forthcoming pick. Once the Williamsburg Bridge re-opens, the cars go back to their original shops and all service will return to the approximate levels they are at today.
If the expanded (weekend) "A" and "C" service proves successful and popular with riders, do you think that they would consider making at least the weekend part permanent?
Wayne
It is permanent
I always say, there's nothing like an un-informed source. Care to share where you get your mis-information?
since Peter Cafiero is the guy in NYCT Operations Planning who decides what route runs where, and when, I would hardly call him an uninformed source.
David (who works around the corner from Peter in Bus Schedules)
I prefer to go by the hard facts....permanent is only as long as each pick, unless it is a 700,800 or 900 job (temporary job that can be changed or abandoned at any time).
The thing I don't understand it, why is the TA substituting increased off peak service (on the Fulton Line) for decreased rush hour through service (on the Broadway line)? What will happen at rush hour?
There are things they could have done. The TA could have replaced the C (six per hour) with the E (12 per hour) in Brooklyn, if it has the cars.
And if it doesn't have the cars, why will it be running trains on Broadway at all -- to service the handful of people who ride from one part of Bushwich/BedStuy to another? Just to say every station is open, to avoid political problems?
Its going to be Baaaad on the Fulton Line, and for those riding the F and tranfering to go downtown, during rush hours.
If there are more E's than C's, maybe the E should replace the C in Brooklyn. There is certainly enough capacity under Fulton Street to have it. Also, why not make the E express in Manhattan? It seems wasteful to have both the C and E running local and only the A running express.
Sorry David (and Peter). Didn't mean to step on your school tie. Let me tell you why the service changes are not permanent. The increase in service is predicated on East NY Yard transferring 184 R-40Ms and R-42s to Coney Island. Coney Island will send 80 R-32 Phase II cars to Jamaica and Jamaica will send 82 R-32 Phase Is to Pitkin Yard. When all the moves are done the fleets will be:
East NY = -184 cars
Coney Island = +104 cars
Jamaica = -2 cars
Pitkin = + 82 cars
The increased service is based solely on these car movements. If the cars are not moved back when the Williamsburg Bridge re-opens, WHAT CARS WILL EAST N.Y. USE TO MAKE FULL SERVICE? IF THEY ARE MOVED BACK, HOW WILL THE INCREASED FULTON ST. SERVICE BE SUSTAINED?
How many added cars would be needed if only Rockaway A trains ran Express and the Lefferts ran local (or the other way). During the week how many cars would be needed if the C ran to Lefferts and all A trains to Rockaway?
Aren't there supposed to be at least 116 (and possibly 216) R143 arriving to plug that gap. They're all bound for the "L". Doubltless this depends on when they arrive. Once they do, then maybe the above move will be permanent.
Wayne
The building and delivery of the R-143 is to some extent, dependent on the CBTC project. The 3 competing compaiies must work with Kawasaki Rail Car to insure that whatever system is chosen, it will interface with the cars. That type of joint engineering will add some time to the actual production. In addition, 184 cars is the equivalent of 23 trains from the east. The R-143 contract (without the option) is for half of that. We'd still be a few cars short. It would take a moderate amount of additional time to exercise the option for the 112 additional cars, too. Besides, those additional cars will be needed when the 63rd St connection opens.
There is something I don't understand. You say cars will be moved to Pitkin, but the only service increase on the Fulton Line I have heard about is keeping the Cs off peak. You don't need more cars for that, you just need fewer in the yard doing nothing off peak. Will more rush hour service be added on the Fulton Line as well? No one has said so.
"Will more rush hour service be added on the Fulton Line as well?"
There will be more rushhour service, at least on the E line. At least 4 more trains will be added. I've yet to see the #s for the other service but if Pitkin is getting 82 additional cars, there will clearly be additional rushhour service on the Fulton St. lines.
"You don't need more cars for that, you just need fewer in the yard doing nothing off peak."
You are making assumptions that cars just sit in the yard waiting to be used for rush hour service. During the off-hours, much is done to those cars you say are sitting idle in the yard. They are cleaned. They are inspected. Minor repairs are made. Cars due for insection are drilled out and put into consists of other cars due for inspection. Bad orfer cars are drilled and replaced too. One of the problems of beefing up off-peak service is that we can not get all of the cars we need for maintenance, off the road.
Steve,
Your explanation makes sense as to why the increased weekday service would not be feasible on the C after the Williamsburg reopens, but what about the weekends?
How many additional trains would it take to run the C to Euclid instead of WTC at ten minute intervals. I'm guessing 5 or 6. There must be 40 - 48 available cars for weekend service, right?
Chuck
Sorry, Steve, I should have been clearer.
Peter Cafiero was probably referring to the weekend A express service, which will be permanent (as permanent as things are in this town, anyway). You're right in your statement that the increased A/C rush hour service is only temporary, because, as you said, the cars just simply aren't there to do it when the J/M/Z services are running over the Williamsburg Bridge.
Bygones?
David
Sorry David (and Peter). After reading the post by 'CTG' I went back and read the original post. It did specify weekend service which would likely not be dependent on the car assignment shift. This was part of the innitiatives of increased off-peak service that came as a result of the 'surplus'. It will likely be 'permanent', as Peter suggested. My mistake.
The weekend and late evening expansion is permanent. Of course the weekday increase in A service is only for the williamsburg bridge, and you are correct that it is being accomplished via a rather complex set of equipment moves that essentially have the effect of transfering unused J and M equipment temporarily to the A line (as well as the L, of course). The weekend increases on the L are permanent as well. The weekday rush hour L increases are temporary, tho it is likely that the PM L service will still be higher next fall than it is now, due to increased ridership.
One of the questions that keeps coming up here is what the service plan will be when the 63rd St. connector is opened. What is the current 'Operations & Planning' idea for te Queens corridor?
1. There was some kind of breakdown on the El this morning. All passengers got off at 30th St to use shuttle buses to 69th St.
2. If anyone gets a Times Square entertainment guide from the visitors center in Times Square, you'll notice a snip-it in the back that makes reference to the "Independent Rapid Transit".
Yep - I was told they lost third rail power in both directions on the MFL, at least on the west end. At 34th St., the station was empty, the turnstiles were turned off (red instead of green lights) and the station agents were giving advice on alternate travel. Considering the situation, this was about as helpful as they could be.
Not so at 30th St - When I passed through on the trolley, it looked like chaos on the MFL platfrom there. It looked like they had not bothered to tell anyone what was going on, much less clear out the station and send people on their way via the shuttle busses.
This brings up a question. There was a stopped M-4 train in 30th Street. There weren't letting anybody on, of course, but I wondered what the chances were that a train would just happen to be in a station when the power went out. So - can the M-4s travel to the next station on battery power after losing third rail power? I've read about trains that can do this. I just wondered if the M-4s are this advanced...
When I saw hoardes of people pouring out of the station, all they knew was that they had to take shuttle buses.
As for the M-4's, I don't know whether or not they can do this.
As far as I know, the M-4's don't have any capability to run on batteries. The lights will stay on but little else will happen.
This Sunday I read a rather interesting article in Newsday by staff writer Hugo Kugiya. It mixes plans for the renovations of the Farley Post Office (accross the street) with history and includes a one page color floor plan. I will only repeat a few details:
- $315 million of which 100M Fed, 40M State, 35M MTA, 25M City,
bal thru bonds & other sources
- Built 1910, lasted 53 years, torn down 1963
- 1995 Penn Stn Redevelopment Corp
- Start Jan 2000, complete 2002 or early 2003
- Search for artifacts, e.g. eight pair of "Night & Day"
Interestingly no mentioned was made of connections to old NYC Hudson River line, Metro-North or #7 Flushing line.
Copyright Disclaimer: I have mentioned the publication & author by name & quoted less then 400 words from the article.
Mr t__:^)
In addition, the March-April 1999 issue of Preservation magazine (published by the National Trust for Historic Preservation) has an excellent article on Penn Station and the Farley proposal - mostly on the history of Penn Station, its role as a catalyst for the historic preservation movement (we all know how close we came to losing Grand Central), and on the archaeological work being done in the Meadowlands in an effort to locate the statues. It includes a nice picture of a house in Eatontown, NJ which has some of the original balustrade used as a fence by the sidewalk and two of the original coachway lanterns.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The city came mighty close to losing Carnegie Hall, too, had it not been for Isaac Stern. The old Met wasn't as fortunate, though.
I believe Grand Central was actually threatened at least twice. In the 1950s there was a proposal to completely replace it with an office building. The 1970s proposal (which was involved in a case that went to the U.S. Supreme Court) would have kept the exterior, but some of the interior would have been lost for the supports to an office building above the station.
The demolition of Penn Station began in 1963, but it was done in stages, and thus went on into 1965.
Yes, as support columns and floors for Madison Square Garden were put in, Penn Station was dismantled. We went through it in 1965; unfortunately, I don't remember how much of it was still standing, but do recall the train announcer's voice booming through the loudspeakers in the waiting area. Maybe the main waiting room was the last portion to go. It really is too bad Penn Station wasn't saved. There was talk of leaving the main waiting room (the tall central part) intact and doing away with the rest of the terminal.
And the following day, I rode on the subway for the first time. The rest is history.
Come to think of it, the old Met was still in business that summer.
Re: saving waiting room
I think something like that was done at Chicago Union Station, where the front of the station was kept but the concourse behind it was replaced by an office building. The other five big Chicago stations - Central, Grand Central, Northwestern, LaSalle Street, and Dearborn Street (except for part of the headhouse) - have all been demolished.
On the other hand, there are many stations around the country that have been saved (although often without train service), including the union stations in St. Louis, Cincinnati, Washington, Jacksonville, Albany, and Main Street and Broad Street stations in Richmond. I'm sure that there are others that could be added to this list.
You can add Nashville and Indianapolis to your list. Denver's Union Station is still functioning as a depot for Amtrak.
Outside of the Northeast Corridor, I can also think of San Diego, Los Angeles, Seattle (King Street for Amtrak and Union Station for the transit agency, I think), Kansas City (although its future use is uncertain), Cleveland (not with Amtrak, however), St. Paul (ditto for Amtrak) and Memphis. Buffalo Central Terminal is empty and endangered.
There are some that I'm not sure about: Detroit (is the NYC station still standing?), Syracuse (downtown station was used by Greyhound for awhile), and Pittsburgh (Amtrak was there, but I don't have recent info.).
Just a note, Seattle Union Station itself isn't currently used for any transportation purposes. (I think it's rented out for private parties and social events...??) On one side of Union Station is the active King St Amtrak station, on the opposite side is the International District bus tunnel station, and across the street is the southern end of the Waterfront Trolley line.
[Just a note, Seattle Union Station itself isn't currently used for any transportation purposes. (I think it's rented out for private parties and social events...??) On one side of Union Station is the active King St Amtrak station, on the opposite side is the International District bus tunnel station, and across the street is the southern end of the Waterfront Trolley line.]
When the upcoming Seattle-area commuter rail service begins, will it use Union Station of King Street?
The commuter rail service will use King Street station as the station building, but I think renovations there are supposed to incorporate the currently unused track/platform areas of Union Station.
You can also add my hometown, South Bend, Ind., to your list. Its Union Station no longer functions as a railroad station, although trains still pass right by it. The depot's main waiting room is now used for banquets, but has not been renovated as such. The Amtrak station is now on the western outskirts of town, next to the old Bendix plant; South Shore trains now terminate at Michiana Regional Airport.
"I think something like that was done at Chicago Union Station, where the front of the station was kept but the concourse behind it was replaced by an office building. The other five big Chicago stations - Central, Grand Central, Northwestern, LaSalle Street, and Dearborn Street (except for part of the headhouse) - have all been demolished."
Close. Central Station, Grand Central, and LaSalle Street were destroyed. There is a modern LaSalle St. Station behind the Stock Exchange, and the Roosevelt Road Metra station is the tiny replacement for the old Central Station. I wouldn't say you were wrong about Dearborn, but that you are mischaracterizing it: the station building itself is basically intact (used as a shopping center), with only the trainsheds missing. The glass is half-full rather than half-empty. (^:
Northwestern Station had the front (waiting room, ticket counters, etc.) removed in the '80s for the construction of a large office tower, Citicorp Center. However, the long building or structure behind the station building that held up the tracks and trainshed, built in the same classical style as the station building, is still there behind the Citicorp, and you cut through the Citicorp to get to the trains on the upper level.
At Union Station, there were originally two buildings, one along the river and containing the stairs down to the platforms and the other, larger building one block inland and containing the Great Hall. The main building survives but the concourse building along the river was torn down in the '70s to make way for an office tower. The entire west riverbank is lined with an open plaza and office buildings that are built on top of the Union Station tracks and platforms. The tracks are on the actual ground, while the streets are one story up.
First excuse me if someone else has already mentioned this, as I haven't been reading all the posts.
I bought several copies of old RxR model mag recently & saw the same adv twice:
12/97 Model Railroader AND 3/98 RxR Model Craftsman, the Red Caboose has (had) models of R21 in N, and R17, R21 & R29 in HO
Also Traction & Models #136 (6/76) had a BMT Std at Model Traction Supply Co in Middletown NY. This one I was looking in for BRT/BMT articles for a SubTalk friend from Brooklyn.
Mr t__:^)
I have the details on the "Eyes" at Chambers/WTC Complex.
Quoting from the official flyer on the art:
It is entitled Oculus (meaning Eye). It is cerated by Kristin Jones and Andrew GInzel. There are 300 different views, all based opn actual human eyes taken from photographs--not computer generated.
"Oculus was created to personalize and integrate the stations. Eyes are both subtle and strong--they engage passing individuals, allowign for meditation or inviting dialogue. Perople make the choice, but either way they're drawn into a dynamic and connected with the environment. Oculus animates the underground world, it humanizes and challenges, even as it reflects NY's wonderful diversity and the diversity of the larger world "
The central piece is 20ft by 40 ft oval shape ansd surroudned by bands of brilliant glass and stone. Also present is an outline map of NYC.
DAVE: Add to the proper sections. Wayne has photos that will be coming
A 40-foot-by-20-foot Eye!! EGAD! Oculus Maximus! That is one enormous eye, for sure. I hope it isn't one of those sinister-looking ones (like the one at the head of the stairs, NE corner of Church/Park Place exit)
Eye now have total of 18 different pictures of all kinds of "eyes".
Eye guess eye'm about halfway through with these all these creepy peepers. ;o)
Wayne
Speaking of Eye guess...
There was a game show by that title back in the late 60s hosted by Bill Cullen.
Eye Eye Eye :)
--Mark
Just out of curiosity, how many of the other subtalkers have personalized license plates that reflect their interest in transit and/or railroading? Steve B has mentioned his plate
8AVEXP
and I have
TROLLEY
on my van. For a long time, I also had
PENNSYRR
but my older son took that car over and both the car and the plate are now expired. (Actually, they make a nice lawn ornament in the side yard, much to my wife's distress!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, 27 of us are getting BSM organizational plates, as Maryland has made it easier to get - you only need 24 vehicles. Numbers will be 1-27 in order, with who gets what determined by random draw. By literally the "luck of the draw" I get BSM 20, which happens to be my membership number. (I'm one of the founding members.) The plates will have the figure of Car 417 (Baltimore City Passenger Railway 1885 - our corporate symbol) in the correct green, and the words Baltimore Streetcar Museum with the numbers assigned.
Saw the sample plate tonight at our (BSM) Board meeting. It looks great, and the approval should be in the hands of the State Tag Shop for formal manufacture of the final plate in the very near future.
If I had a second vehicle, I'd probably go for IRT 3352 if I lived in NYC; here in Massachusetts we are limited to six characters, so perhaps I'd choose R1TOR9.
The plate on my (one and only) vehicle is WMBR 88, representing my other interest, radio. WMBR is the MIT radio station, of which I am the volunteer president and advisor. It's at 88.1 on the FM dial; also the 88 represents the radio station for which I occasionally work, WCBS Newsradio 88.
If you lived in Colorado, you could get IRT3352 plates, since our plates now have seven characters. (I had a feeling you'd go for something pertaining to 3352!) If I wanted to, I could put in for A8AVEXP plates, which would drive my allegiance closer to home.
Interestingly enough, 8AVEXP was the last combination I came up with when it came to personalized plates. I had other choices such as SUBWAY, SGAUGE (for American Flyer), R-10, R-32, NYMETS, and ATRAIN. At one time, six different choices were allowed; later, it went up to eight. I picked up a new application when it came time to submit my request, and put down 8AVEXP as my first choice. The rest, as they say, is history.
If you lived in NY I can't believe you wouldn't go for WEATHRR
That's good idea. I'll consider it whenever I get around to switching my license and registration from New York to Maryland.
SubTalkers with vehicles registered in New York may check the availabilty of a desired "subway" vanity plate at the following site-
http://www.dmv.state.ny.us/inettrans/wcCustomPlates.ASP?WCI=libstep1&WCU
Just FYI...there a LOT of good combinations available..check it out!!
In the mid 1980's the Crescent Street Interlocking on the Jamaica Avenue EL was resignaling by GRS and the middle track was connected on both ends by a crotch layout interlocking.
This interlocking was the first application on NYCTA of using a non-vital microprocessor for route selection purposes. The Generalogic 1 microprocessor was used with a backup. The GL1 is a one bit microprocessor which is a antique by today's standards.
On the Sea Beach Line non-vital microprocessors are used by a company called Modicom.
What's the idea - an automatic local interlock not needing tower control???
Ben, I don't think you understand. The interlocking was resignaled with all new equipment in the mid 1980's. The non-vital relays for route selection purposes which were normally used in those days were provided with a non-vital microprocessor doing the same thing. Originally there was only a Maintainers Panel in the Relay Room with the provision for remote control from a new tower at ENY. The Maintainers Panel was the tower. Today, Crescent Street is operated from ENY Tower. Normally, all the normal direct signals are fleeted and reclear automatically with no tower intervention. This is no different than other NX Plants or Mechanical Interlocking machines.
I remember the actual two story building on the el just after the curve ends at Fulton & Crescent. As a kid I could look out my bedroom window and the building was about 100 feet away. If I remember it was about 10 foot wide and maybe 16 foot long. It looked to have two floors. I often thought that I could see several indicator type lights reflecting in the glass of the second floor windows at night. The strange thing was that in all the years I lived there I never saw a sign of a human attendent. If there was someone on duty he must have been some type of hermit, and sat up there in the dark. With all of the improvements has that building been removed? I left Brooklyn almost forty years ago but have fond memories of watching the gate cars and the Standards run by on Crescent St.
I tower building on the structure no longer exists. I understand that the building had a fire in it which made the interlocking inoperative. All signals were converted for automatic operation. Then the signaling was replaced per my previous postings. There is a prefabricated one story metal building at the curve which is the relay room today.
I wonder if anyone has a photo of the old tower at Crescent Street?
In the mid 1980's the Crescent Street Interlocking on the Jamaica Avenue EL was resignaling by GRS and the middle track was connected on both end by a crotch layout interlocking.
This interlocking was the first application on NYCTA of using a non-vital microprocessor for route selection purposes. The Generalogic 1 microprocessor was used with a backup. The GL1 is a one bit microprocessor which is a antique by today's standards.
On the Sea Beach Line non-vital microprocessors are used by a company called Modicom.
That type of connection is seriously called a 'crotch'???
-Hank
NEWS FLASH
Well, I have just finished putting up the newest page on the site, the Subway Bibliography: Movies page. It is by no means finished and I am "rushing" it out to press for reasons that will become clear shortly. The page needs work and I'll be adding info gleaned from SubTalk to the movie entries as I have time to do so.
The second big news is this: I have joined the Amazon.Com Associates program. Basically this means I earn a few cents for items bought from Amazon that were bought by people following links on my pages. The money will be used to keep the site running. This is the first commercial partnership/sponsorship I have entered into and I don't intend to have any/many more. I like the site to be commercial free and I hope you all appreciate that as well.
The reason I rushed the movie page up is this: A lot of the movies we are listing are still available on VHS to buy (and some on DVD). Since I bet a lot of you will be buying movies based on what we talk about here I figured the site could benefit from that. Purely selfish reasons but this site costs about $2000 a year to keep on the Web (not even counting any necessary hardware purchases). I would also like to use the money to donate to various museums on the site's behalf but I figure the income will only be a small amount.
If you do want to help the site out by buying items from amazon, this is how the program works:
1. Go to the Subway Bibliography and find items that you are interested in.
2. Follow the "BUY this item at Amazon.COM" link to bring up the Amazon page for that item, and if you decide you want it, Add it to your Shopping Cart.
3. If you want any additional items, GO BACK TO THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, find your next item, and follow the link from www.nycsubway.org to Amazon. Then proceed as in #2. The reason for this is that commissions are only earned on items DIRECTLY LINKED FROM the Associate site. If you do your own search inside amazon, and buy, it doesn't count.
4. You can also use the search box on the Subway Bibliography page to find items that I may not have listed.
5. If you buy items this way please let me know -- I want to make sure it works!
Thank you all for your continued support of SubTalk and www.nycsubway.org
Dave Pirmann
Web Site Host
pirmann@nycsubway.org
You've got to hand it to Amazon; this is a marketing coup. Perfectly targeted niche advertizing, and the cost is zero unless you get a sale (since its commission only), and the cost of advertizing exactly equals the sales you get.
Looking back on memos we wrote from 1990 to 1992, its amazing how much we underestimated this internet thing. We knew that as one of the most expensive parts of the country, plain old businesses would always leave NYC, but as one of the most innovative NYC had to generate new industries to stay afloat and justify its high wages. But we had no idea what the new wave would be, and said so at the time.
Wow, has Amazon got a great franchise in the short run. I had always been a fan of NFL films football highlight shows, and a friend of mine had a record of the background music for the show, but I could never find it. Well, NFL films reissued a version on CD, but NY record stores couldn't carry something for such a narrow market. But Amazon had it, and not only could I buy one for myself, but I could order and ship a gift-wrapped copy to my dad for his birthday. And there they are grabbing another small niche market, the railfans, which previously could not be served.
In the long run, it seems that economies of scale are dead. With the net, there is no reason that someone couldn't run a store specializing in railfan stuff out of his or her basement, and reach a national market, as long as they had a van to move stuff to and from a shipper.
BTW, our regional economist rivals over at EDC, who believe that government experts can predict and create the future, recommending directing public dollars toward New Media -- a couple of months ago. A little late, don't you thing, and the absence of subsidies and govenrment "help" doesn't seem to have hurt anyone did it? I like them better when the were promoting public investment in the revivial of "high wage, low environmental impact" manufacturing. Too bad we didn't get the Saturn plant.
Another interesting thing. The Science Business and Industry Library asked City Planning to measure their economic value to the city, so the Chairman (J. Rose) brought us up there for a meeting with the board. The project never really got off the ground, and its a good thing. I used to have to go up there all the time to do research, but now I just use the Internet from my home and office. It's OBSOLETE!
Transfers that should be there but are not:
1. 3 and L in Brooklyn
2. G and J,M,Z in Brooklyn
3. 7 and E,F,G in Queens(Courthouse Sq)
4. 7,N and E,F,G,R in Queens
5. 1,2,3,9 and A,C,E in Manhattan(34-Penn Station)**
At least there is improvement, there will be a transfer at Franklin Av-Botanic Garden between the S and 2,3,4,5.
** If you going to have sign outside the says 34 St-Penn Station:A,C,E,1,2,3,9 then build some type of a transfer. I guess it deals with overcrowding issue.
You're missing the key transfer of all transfers:
The B,D,F, and Q to the Uptown 6 at Broadway/Lafayette/Bleeker
You got that one right. If they could build an underpass from the E and F at 53rd and Lex to the downtown 6, they can put one in at Bleeker to the uptown 6, even if the platform is further to the north (put in a long ramp down at the end of the uptown 6 platform and it would even by ADA compliant)
If I remember correctly, the E/F transfer to the 6 trains was built by a private contractor. Apparently, the same contractor was constructing a building in the area, and it turned out that an exit from one of those stations would have led directly into the building. As a compromise, the TA shut down that exit, and the contractor built that connection between the E/F and the 6. This worked out great for the TA, the contractor, and all of us! I'd gladly sacrifice exits at any station for more free transfers. (Well, maybe not Court Square. From what I've read on Subtalk, you have to use the free transfer just to get in the station at certain times.)
Sorry, that story is sort of ambiguous now that I look over it. I can't remember exactly what my source is. If anyone could supply some more details and/or confirm/deny this story, I would greatly appreciate it.
Transfers that should be there but are not:
1. 3 and L in Brooklyn
2. G and J,M,Z in Brooklyn
3. 7 and E,F,G in Queens(Courthouse Sq)
4. 7,N and E,F,G,R in Queens
5. 1,2,3,9 and A,C,E in Manhattan(34-Penn Station)**
At least there is improvement, there will be a transfer at Franklin Av-Botanic Garden between the S and 2,3,4,5.
** If you going to have sign outside the says 34 St-Penn Station:A,C,E,1,2,3,9 then build some type of a transfer. I guess it deals with overcrowding issue.
Also when the Franklin Shuttle returns rename it. I say "I" train. There are too many shuttles..
[Transfers that should be there but are not:
1,2,3,9 and A,C,E in Manhattan(34-Penn Station)]
Penn Station is between these lines. Building a transfer passageway would cost an enormous amount. Besides, there's no real need for a transfer because one already is available one stop north at Times Square-42nd Street.
Seeing as how my normal entry and exit from the system is Penn Station, I've never noticed, but I always assumed that there was a connection - the transit map (at least at one time) showed one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My less ambitious (?) wish is to hear announcements that announce only the transfers that are actually available at that time. It seems like almost every time I'm riding the 4/5 to Fulton St the J/M/Z get announced as transfers, even on weekends when none of them are running there. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the time I also hear the C announced as a transfer during the times when it's running to the WTC and not through to Brooklyn. The subway is already confusing enough without this added misinformation.
Excellent point, David! I cringe on weekends when I hear announcements that you can:
"Transfer here to the and ."
Just like I cringe here in Boston on Sundays when on the Orange Line they announce Forest Hills -- last stop. Change for the Commuter Rail. The Needham line, the only Commuter Rail line that serves Forest Hills, doesn't run at all on Sundays! I asked a very young looking conductor why they do that, and he said they are told to. It makes me wonder if conductors and instructors even know the right transfer information.
On Saturday Feb 27, I was hearing various transfer announcements to the train.
It seems that some conductors do the transfer announcements by rote.
All it takes is a few sit-down sessions with a subway map/service guide to clear up some of these errors. Just concentrate on what lines DON'T run on weekends/off peak hours to promote the awareness of them.
Mind you, conductors are consummate professionals, but we are all human, and a few of us do slip up from time to time.
Wayne
Ive always liked when the conductor not only gets the right transfers that are available, but also WHERE they are (i.e. which staircase to use..etc...).
When the Franklin Avenue Shuttle returns, I say renaming it. There are too many shuttles right now. I say rename it "I" train.
42 St Shuttle should be 10.
Rockaway shuttle should go back to H.
I agree with renaming the Franklin Shuttle as a real line because it actually goes places where no other train does. However the other shuttles should stay that way because they double service for lines that already run those routes.
[I agree with renaming the Franklin Shuttle as a real line because it actually goes places where no other train does. However the other shuttles should stay that way because they double service for lines that already run those routes.]
For much of the time, the Rockaway Park Shuttle is the only train running on its route.
I'd also say that the 7 is at best an imperfect substitute for the 42nd Street Shuttle. Getting to the 7 is quite a bit less convenient, especially at the Grand Central end. And not to mention the fact that the Shuttle and the 7 do not share any tracks.
How about calling it by the neighborhood the line serves: The Bedford-Stuyvesant Shuttle. Or even the Bed-Stuy & Prospect Park Shuttle?
Or if we really want to get into it, let's call the Franklin Shuttle, "The Little Electric Railroad That Cheated Death". And that's not far from the truth!
Doug aka BMTman
>>"The Little Electric Railroad That Cheated Death"<<
So true,
I just drove under the shuttle line on Atlantic Ave Monday, the overpass is redone but you can still look right up through it, no roadbed or track has been relayed.
Dean Street stop is almost gone. All the wood and stuff is torn down. A lot of cement stuff they still have to clean up but Dean Street stop is no more.
I wonder what the ridership numbers on the shuttle bus are compared to the ridership on the two R68's??
Hey I guess they can't marry all the 68's to 4 car sets (like they did with the 68A's) if they want to keep some of them on the shuttle??
IF you ever worked it as a c/r or t/o as I have you would what it should be called.
They had a pool of R68's especially assigned to the shuttle. 4 cars would be on the road during the day, with a 2 car gap train at Prospect Park and 2 more in CIYD out for maintance or awaiting to be used. I saw some cars in CIYD Main Shop last week undergoing SMS and being linked into 4 car units. Some of the 8 cars assigned: 2822, 2840, 2864, 2865, 2797 (?), 2902, 2903. The following cars are now part of a 4 car unit: 2840 (with 41, 43 & 42), and 2902, 2903 (with 00 & 01). So when the line reopens, different cars will be there. We'll have to see how many R68's are left as single cars and which car numbers.
I always thought "The Little Electric Railroad That Cheated Death" was the South Shore Line.
The South Shore Line was Chicago, South Shore and South Bend Railroad, and Interurban which survives today as an electric commuter line between Chicago and South Bend, IN, operated by a state agency (Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District).
The South Shore is very near and dear to my heart, being the South Bend native that I am. I remember when those trains used to come all the way to LaSalle Ave. and Michigan St. in downtown South Bend.
Back in the early 80s, the railroad touted itself as "The Little Railroad That Could". Actually, I think credit should go to the ICC, which more or less kept stalling when the Chessie Company, which owned the South Shore at the time, petitioned for discontinuance of passenger service in 1976. That's another story for another time. I'm just thankful the South Shore is still around. It's a big kick to be going down the Toll Road and seeing one of their trains cruising along.
Why not call the 42nd St.shuttle the '8'?
I guess the reason why would be that there was already a number 8 traain years ago that operated betwween 149th 3rd ave and gun hill road via 3rd ave connecting with the 2 and 5 at both points. maybe it is just out of respect that the number was retired. the reasoni say this was since the 9 was introduced why was it not called the 8 train instead of the 9 train. just a possibility.
Very simple. Why was the No.9 Intruduced instead of the No.8.
The No.1 is colored red that Represents the West Side IRT. The No.9 is also red. The No.8 is green representing the East Side IRT. It would be weid seeing a Red No.1 running with a green 8.
I guess he means, why didn't they make the 8 red, and then use it on 7th Av. I don't know. Maybe as a Pelham (or possibly Jerome) local, it is kind of closer to what it was as the 3rd Av el. If they don't use the 11 as the Flushing express, perhaps they could use it as the shuttle, since it is purple and the shuttle runs amost with the 7.
I'd much rather they use the 8 as the Flushing Express. I don't like all this skipping around of numbers. I think the route number sign curtains on the R-142s should have a purple 8 sign instead of the green 8 sign on the R-62/62As. I have another question. Do the Redbirds also have a green 8 and 10 and a purple 11 sign like the 62/62As? (which also have red 12 and 13 signs - I have no idea what those could possibly be used for)
There is definatly a green #10 end sign on the 62/62A's. I don't believe there is an 8.
Hey fellow you want to know there is a green or red sign?? Here is the sign.
He meant on the trains themselves. Those signs are from the bullets page, but I would like know if they're actually on the trains themselves.
I've seen 8 once between cars on the Lex Local; and have seen 10 three times. 11 I've seen upside down in a side sign; the others I haven't seen yet. I spend more time on the East side than I do on the West.
Wayne
Was this an R-62A or a Redbird? I've never seen the 8, but I have seen the 10 and the upside-down 11 before. I even saw the 13 on the end of a not-in-service 3 train. All on 62A's. There was a post about running skip-stop service from Woodlawn a while back. Maybe the 8 could be paired with the 4 for that service, but I've taken the 4 into Manhattan from Woodlawn and I never found it to be a really long ride like the 2 from 241st St is. There should be an 8 somewhere. Still I'd prefer that it go to Queens.
Speaking of which, let me ask, now that LIRR abandoned its Montauk branch west of Jamaica, what could be done with it? Do freight trains use any part of the branch? I say make this the new 8 train and connect it to the 7 train at Hunters Point Av. (hope the branch is wide enough to keep the tracks separate). It might even take some pressure off the Queens Blvd subway as it would connect to the E, F, Q, and R trains as the 7 does now. I would prefer it to go to Jamaica, but that might involve tons of reconstruction ($$$$) to keep the FRA wolves away from the TA's door. Maybe it could connect with the J and Z in Richmond Hill.
All of the cars on which I have seen the above signs were R62As, and all were on the 6.
And the LIRR hasn't technically abandoned the Montauk branch; trains still use it; the five stations on it have been closed. It sure is a prime candidate for recylement into Rapid Transit. And they should reopen the Rockaway Branch as combined LIRR and Rapid Transit, and reopen the stations too, but they have thousands of live, mature trees in the way!
Wayne
Connecting up a spur off either the E/F after 23rd-Ely or one off the 63rd St. line and running it beneath the Sunnyside yards and over to the Montauk line woul make sence. It could follow the line through Maspeth and then reconnect with the J/Z line just past Lefferts Blvd., and from there use the existing tunnel to Jamaica Center.
If you hooked up both the 53rd and 63rd St. tunnels, you could run two lines along that route, say the Q from Broadway and the F from Sixth Ave., and still have one line from each tunnel serving the existing Queens Blvd. line.
If you ran another Sixth Ave. line (the V) through 63rd St. and then as an express along Queens Blvd., you would even free up the local track to resume G service to 71st Continental in the future, while passengers from Jamaica would have two routes to get into Midtown Manhattan, taking some of the crowding off Queens Blvd.
You will NEVER NEVER NEVER see third rail/subway on the LIRR Montauk branch from LIC to Jamaica. The NIMBYS from Glendale killed it already & will do so again if needed. That track is still active tho. NY & Atlantic uses it, some LIRR trains to/from LIC use it non stop to/from Jamaica due to congestion on the main line, and LIRR regularly transfers cars & power thru the line daily.
Ah yes, I forgot about the NIMBY wimps (I wonder how they get to work!)
Is the Montauk line diesel operation though Glendale? Because you mentioned congestion on the Main Line. I didn't know that it was still in regular use. Do you happen to know the general pattern of Glendale and Maspeth commuters (where they work and how they get there)?
Funny how those NIMBYs complain how bad their service is and want something done about it, yet when something is suggested those wimps start screaming their heads off. Why don't those geniuses come up with a solution if they're so unhappy with the ones that are offered? Otherwise they should shut up and stop complaining about their commute! It's their own fault that nothing's being done so they should just grin and bear it! (Maybe they do and that's why nothing happens)
The line is not electrified. Any future proposals would have third rail installed and the residents don't want RR crossings with third rail there. Also, no matter how hard the RR tries, fences are always cut for people to cross the tracks. I know the RR was there before the residents, but they don't want the added noise of additional trains. Most of those people take train & bus or express bus to work. Many LIRR rush hour diesel train terminate at Hunters Point (#7line) The few that take the Montauk branch terminate at LIC, one stop closer to Manhattan on the #7.
"Any future proposals would have third rail installed and the residents don't want RR crossings with third rail there."
A legitimate objection, but the TA could 1) not have third rail where the ROW is crossing a street (trains would have to be long enough to bridge the gap) and 2) where the ROW crosses a street, install gates across the mouths of the ROW that are open when a train is coming through but are closed otherwise. CTA has these on one line and they seem to be effective.
"Also, no matter how hard the RR tries, fences are always cut for people to cross the tracks."
And people can stick their fingers into light sockets, even the "child-proof" ones if they use enough ingenuity. Yet nobody raises this as an argument for abolishing the electric utility and pulling all the electric wiring out of everyone's homes! Would we abolish expressways because someone can cut the fence to get on the right of way? Or ban tall buildings because someone can commit suicide from them, even if they have to break a sealed window to do it?
"I know the RR was there before the residents, but they don't want the added noise of additional trains."
These people are living in the CITY, not bloody freaking Hooterville! A certain amount of noise comes with the territory. I would tell them to "deal with it!!!!".
[re neighborhood objections to electrifying the LIRR Montauk line through Queens]
Another thing to keep in mind is that only a relatively small stretch of the line runs through a residential area at grade. That stretch is through Glendale, and without sounding too cynical, I should point out that it doesn't seem like the sort of neighborhood where the residents would wield much political influence - it's not a slum by any means, but no one will ever mistake it for Beverly Hills. Most of the Montauk line in Queens runs through industrial areas.
I'm sure if the line was turned over to the subway, they would either bury sections in an open cut with crossing bridges or elevate it, depending on which is cheaper and more practical (more of the former than the latter). If they could redo the SIRT to elimiated grade crossings in the mid-1960s, they could start off the 21st century by getting rid of them in Queens.
They eliminated relatively few grade crossings on the SIR in the 60's (between Jeffereson Ave and Bay Terrace), and that was done by the B&O, not the city. The project was actually started in the late 30's/early 40's, but, like most major infrastructure work in the city, was halted by WWII. The rest of the line, including the entire North Shore, and portions of the South Beach, were done as parts of WPA projects in the 30's.
-Hank
Yes! I live right near the #2 line, and you don't hear me complaining that they should put it underground. Those NIMBY losers should go move to Hooterville (they might enjoy it). They are living in a city. Cities aren't supposed to be quiet. Deal with it or get out! Bring on the #8 train to Glendale!
Here in Chicago, there are a large number of suburbanites moving back to the city. While this is generally a positive trend, there are also some recent negative consequences from people used to strict zoning laws that separate uses now living in city neighborhoods where mixed uses are the norm.
1) Once several loft residences have been built or converted in an industrial area, some of the new residents then form "concerned citizen" groups and complain to their alderman about the noise and traffic from the remaining factories and warehouses!! To the city's credit, they have a goal of preserving industrial uses and will NOT rezone the "offending" factories. And this has not significantly affected the loft market. Indeed, several lofts and condos are being built, and converted from warehouses, on the open land between (right next to!) the railway tracks coming into Union and LaSalle Street Stations, and along the busy Metra Electric tracks opposite the Museum Complex and Soldier Field.
2) Not used to the noise and disruption from the proximity of bars and nightclubs, some neo-urbanites have sought to rid themselves of these "nuisances." Mind you, these were the very people who, when they resided in the suburbs, would drive or hop a Metra into the city on Friday and Saturday nights to party! Unfortunately, Mayor Daley, who usually is trying to promote what is unique and attractive about the city, sides with these modern-day Prohibitionists. Consequently, it is VERY easy to, by referendum, vote a precinct (a part of a Ward, not a police district) "dry," which results in all liquor licenses in the precinct being voided, regardless of the actions of any individual licensee!!! There is even a move afoot among the loft dwellers of the new conversions in the Merchandise Mart area to vote the precinct dry because the House of Blues is "too disruptive"! (Mind you, the people who live in Marina City, right above the House of Blues, are generally not supporting the initiative.) This is right across the river from the Loop itself!
[Here in Chicago, there are a large number of suburbanites moving back to the city. While this is generally a positive trend, there are also some recent negative consequences from people used to strict zoning laws that separate uses now living in city neighborhoods where mixed uses are the norm.
1) Once several loft residences have been built or converted in an industrial area, some of the new residents then form "concerned citizen" groups and complain to their alderman about the noise and traffic from the remaining factories and warehouses!!]
Similarly, when suburbanities move into far exurbs, they frequently complain about the noise and smells from nearby farms.
I wonder if they complain with their mouthes full ...
Or the ones who buy houses right off the end of the runway (in a subdivision named "Quiet Acres") and then complain about jet noise.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Can everyone say duh?!?
The city of Denver has had a barrage of noise complaints about the new airport from residents of Parker, which is 20-30 miles to the south. They've reshuffled takeoff and landing patterns, and now residents from the north are starting to complain.
Well, I don't think that fits in with this thread. Everything else seems to involve 'newbies' moving to established areas, and then complaining about what exists there since long before they decided to move in. Denver's new airport is just new. The neighborhood was there first. Although I would figure that 20-30 miles away, planes would be sufficiently high that noise wouldn't be a problem.
-Hank
(New rich demanding an end to mixed uses). You have this problem all the time in New York. The worst is Soho, where residents want to maintain manufacturing zoning (so not just anyone can live there) but try to hassle out manufacturing.
The #2 train definitely is a very long ride from the Bronx to Manhattan. Someone may have posted this before, but maybe the #5 Bronx Thru-Express should be expanded outside of rush hours. It could run downtown until early afternoon, and then uptown express service would start. This could continue later in the evening than the present express service. Some express service could be considered for weekends too.
That would not really work. During Rush Hours the No.2 runs about5 Min to 8 Mins. During middays the No.2 runs 10 Mins. With the No.5 its 5 Mins between E 180 St to 149 St. Also there is lots of Track work mainly redoing the Signals. Like the Pelham Line there will be no IRT Signals. So this will continue to cause delays. Right now the Genaral Order is only from Bronx Park East to South of E 241 St. Also you would have very heavy loaded platforms at E Tremont and Simpson St. Weekends there is no reason to do Express. The No.2 runs every 10 to 12 Mins and the No.5 every 10 Min. So there will be lots of angry people out there.
3rd Ave. el trains were labeled #8 only on maps. The #8 marking never appeared on the trains themselves. The R-12s which ran there were marked, "Shuttle".
When they introduced the two skip stop services they just took the last "character" from the alphabet- Z for the J skip siop and from the numbers- 9 (I guess they didn't want a train with two digits) for the 1 skip-stop.
How about "Crosstown Shuttle"? Between Grand Central and Times Sq.
[How about "Crosstown Shuttle"? Between Grand Central and Times Sq.]
Might be too confusing, as the G train already is known as the Crosstown Local.
How about the #42 train, since they have double numbers for other proposed routes, or express renumberings.
Of course, 42 for the Franklin Ave. shuttle would conjure up memories of Jackie Robinson. On top of that, Prospect Park isn't far at all from where Ebbets Field used to be.
How about the Jackie Robinson (or Dodger of your choice) Shuttle? You already have the Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge.
It's a "B" division train, hence it would get a letter of some sort.
I agree there are too many S's; maybe they could call it the P or the I, as has been suggested.
Wayne
If it were called the P train, there might be a lot of jokes about the Franklin Shuttle (although the TA did propose a P train during the Amtrak strike which would have gone from the Sutphin Blvd E station to 34th Street/8th Avenue, but it never happened). And the letter I looks too much like the number 1. P might not be so bad, you never know.
Let's not make change for just the sake of change. Let's not confuse the customers. Just leave them alone. Plus, the cars may not have the rollsigns. The added expense is not worth it.
How about rename Franklin Ave to Fulton St and Botanice Garden to Eastern Parkway. The shuttle already runs on Franklin or near it, why have the last stop called Franklin Ave. Botanic Gardens is about three blocks away from the station. It would probably be better if it was called Eastern Parkway especially with the transfer being put in place.
How about rename Franklin Ave to Fulton St and Botanice Garden to Eastern Parkway? The shuttle already runs on Franklin or near it, why have the last stop called Franklin Ave. Botanic Gardens is about three blocks away from the station. It would probably be better if it was called Eastern Parkway especially with the transfer being put in place.
[How about rename Franklin Ave to Fulton St]
Agreed. That would make more sense.
[and Botanic Garden to Eastern Parkway]
No, the Botanic Gardens are a tourist attraction and giving them a subway stop will entice people not only to come to Brooklyn but also to use that underused train.
How about giving it a name with a railroad flavor. The "PP&B" for "prospect Park & Back."
Regards,Larry
Let's call it the "Franklin Avenue Local" just because it sounds good :)
--Mark
I don't like the letter "I" because it is too easily confused with the number "1". Why don't we name it the X train?
Because that would violate Rudy's anti-porn initiatives.
-Hank :)
Looks like they've found more serious problems on the Manhattan Bridge, and the've had to close part of it. Fortunately, its the vehicular part -- this time.
I'm amazed NY1 or Newsradio88 hasn't picked this up. They are treating it as a traffic problem, rather than yet another ominous sign for the future of the bridge -- and the future of parts of Brooklyn if it isn't replaced. Nothing on their websites, although 88 links to Metrocommute, which has annouced it (with no details).
BTW the guy who was in charge of the City Planning study of the issue, which I proposed, has left, and the study seems to have sputtered out. Hope they pick it up again.
Sorry I can't help you today, Larry, as I'm at work in Boston (but I'll be in NYC for a weekend of subway-transit-and-weather-together this weekend :-)
You might send an email to editor@newsradio88.com to suggest this as a topic for a story.
It was listed as simply a "loose expansion joint".
--Mark
Lets try to name as many movies as possible that were filmed in the New York Subway:
Pelham 123
Short Walk to Daylight
French Connection
The FBI Story
Ghost
Serpico
Ninja Turtles
Money Train
Give it try to name somemore.
How about "Blue Steel" with Jamie Lee Curtis and Ron Silver( Veronica'sCloset).
In the final scenes of the film, the two had a shootout in an "IND station at Wall St".
This I noticed as an error:)
Also:
Nighthawks (with R-1/9s)
Class of '44 (featuring Triplex units!)
Exorcist (very brief scene of a train of R-17s at 34th-Penn Station)
There is another film whose title escapes me which features Henry Winkler (aayyyyyy!) and possibly Robin Williams; both work in a mortuary. The 42nd St. shuttle is used. Graveyard Shift, perhaps?
The Transit Museum's Triplex' were used in early scenes in the "Malcolm X" epic.
Also, let us not forget one of Sylvester Stallone's first roles was that of a subway mugger in Woody Allen's "Bananas".
Seashore's Denver & South Platte Birney Car #1 was used in the movie. I was there when the scene was shot (a Christmas week in the early 90's?) on the Brooklyn waterfront. We brought the car down by flatbed truck, and it stayed in Brooklyn for a week while the scene was set, rehearsed, and shot. Actual 600v overhead was put up by the production crew! In the scene that made the movie, the car was expertly run by Tom Santarelli, son of one of Seashore's founders.
Before my grandparents passed away, they told me, "It's too bad you'll never get to ride on a trolley on the streets of Brooklyn." Well, not only have I ridden on one, but I got to run one!
It must have been regauged when Seashore got it. I say that because if it ran in Denver, it would have had narrow gauge trucks. Denver's streetcars ran on 3' 6" gauge track. Birneys were used in Fort Collins; I'm not sure of the track gauge there, but it may have been standard 4' 8.5".
[Also:
Exorcist (very brief scene of a train of R-17s at 34th-Penn Station)]
This was one of the very few scenes in a mainstream movie to use a subliminal shot. You can see it quite clearly using the slow-motion feature on a VCR.
There is another film whose title escapes me which features Henry Winkler (aayyyyyy!) and possibly Robin Williams; both work in a mortuary. The 42nd St. shuttle is used. Graveyard Shift, perhaps?
I think it was called "Night Shift"
The Movies List is up to 30 entries. I have probably 10 more to add. I combed thru 20,000 SubTalk posts to find all the prior posts with "movie" and/or "film" in the title and added almost all those mentioned to the list.
Enjoy!
-Dave
In numerous Seinfeld episodes, especially early on, Jerry and Co. are shown talking while seated on a crowded subway train, with a flash to a view of the train speeding along from outside after the punch line is delivered. I believe it was the west side IRT, and the long period of rolling along implied an express (the train never stopped, and the doors never opened, in these interludes).
A couple of others which you may or may not have:
Gloria w/Genna Rowland (IRT an PATH)
Ghost w/Demi Moore (too obvious to miss)
Dressed to Kill w/Angie Dickenson, Michael Caine (IRT)
The Equalizer, Memories of Manon (IRT in opening credits)
Kojak - The Bellarus Files (8th Avenue subway)
Mr. Wonderful w/Matt Dillon (R-32 @ Bergen Lower)
A Stranger is Watching w/Kate Mullagrew & Rip Torn (Abandoned B division cars and under grand Central Station)
More to come
There is also Crocodile Dundee (the first movie). They rode the subway-was filmed at lower 42nd IND and lower 9th ave. West End.
I almost forgot: there are a few subway clips in Where Were You When the Lights Went Out? This is a comedy which takes place during the East Coast blackout of November 1965. Featured are R-1/9s signed up as (Todd, you're going to love this) an HH; the conductor is played by, I believe, the same gentleman who plays the Maytag repair man.
Lets add "Short Walk to Daylight" New York after an earthquake. They used an R-1/9. I believe it was filmed at the TA Museum before it was opened.
I have heard that in the 1950's there was a television show filmed in the IRT trains and yards.
Also, a Superman television episode shows a speeding "A" train. But the "train" pulling into the station looks more like a Lo V.
In "Across the Pacific", Humphrey Bogart rides a Lo V
Then there is "The Wrong Man" Henry Fonda goes home in an R-1/9 at Fifth Av. to Jackson Heights.
I have one episode of Amos & Andy where the Kingfish and Andy are commuting back abd forth on the A? train between Upper Manhattan and Brooklyn looking the the Kingfish's missing wife.
I also remember an episode of "I Love Lucy" where Lucy is riding the IRT with her head stuck in a Loving Cup.
My all time favorite sitcom 'subway' episode is from "Mad About You" where Paul & Jamie fill in for a slightly neurotic token clerk who was once one of Paul's class-mates.
I saw that Mad About You episode, too. What station was that train at in the closing credits?
Thanks for the additions, but we're duplicating now... Short Walk and Wrong Man are already in the list...
Check the Movies List to see what we've already got. If anyone has any particular subway trivia about a listed movie, you can drop me a line... (like car numbers visible stuff like that).
Thanks,
-Dave
Dave, I'm going to take a close look at my Pelham video and see if R-17 6609 is, in fact, in it. I don't believe it is, but I could be wrong. As I recall, I could see two R-17s, one of which is the last car of the train leaving 59th St. as Martin Balsam enters the subway at the very beginning of the movie; the other is part of the train during the sequence in which the rookie conductor is reviewing, out loud, the sequence of steps he takes while stopped at a station.
Well, folks, I pulled out my Pelham video last night and came up with the following:
I couldn't tell for sure if the R-17 on the end of the first train seen in the film was 6609; the car number was illegible.
The first car of the train which Martin Balsam boards at 59th St. is a current Redbird; its storm door has a single large window.
At "Grand Central", R-22 #7339 can be seen on the track across the platform, and get this: it appears to be coupled to R-10 #2973.
Wayne was right: the tilework at "28th St." is definitely IND-style. Most of the pillars are tile-encased, and there is most definitely a gap between the edge of the platform and the train. I suspect they may have used one of the outer tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and built a fake wall along the platform. There is a staircase at the extreme end of the platform, which Hoyt-Schermerhorn has.
When Pelham 1-2-3 pulls into 28th St., the number placard on 7339 is clean. As it starts to leave after being hijacked, that same number placard has red splatters on it. The last car, which is numbered 9339, is an R-21/22; its storm door has a drop-sash window.
When Martin Balsam brings the first car to a stop in the tunnel after cutting it loose from the rest of the train, the car turns out to be #7434, which is later seen at 28th St. when DCI Daniels is there.
During the scene at 28th St., when Caz Dolowicz makes his way along the platform, one of the cars in the train is #7480. I don't know about the rest of you, but that guy who plays the conductor looks and sounds an awful lot like Nipsey Russell (in any case, he is uncredited).
I wrote down car 7231 as being in the movie, but didn't notice it.
And, finally, I remembered one other film with subway footage: Hero at Large with John Ritter. I believe the Flushing line is featured.
The Flushing Line is also shown briefly at the very beginning of the David Caruso, Nicholas Cage, Helen Hunt movie, "Kiss of Death".
It's also shown briefly in beginning of the original "Death Wish". (In the original Worlds Fair paint scheme)
Dear David, Missing Items. 1. The Dutchman by Leroi Jones--entire movie/play takes place in an R1/9. Iirc Shirley Jones as terrorized blonde. 2. If you count out of town items, then Meobius, 1996, Buenos Aires, dir Gustavo Mosquera, film prof at BA univ. Basic plot--perhaps based on golden age sci-fi story from US--when a new piece of subway routing is completed it creates a "moebius" strip such that entire trains appear and dissappear from the system. Lovingly filmed in the BA system in off hours with sequences including false speed runs shot with camera affixed to train. Great tunnel footage. Have seen it twice here in Bay Area at non-commercial venues. Doubt video anytime soon but one can hope. Yours david vartanoff
Thanks. I'm not trying to catalog films featuring other cities (i.e. the recent Baltimore and Chicago lists that were posted) or television shows-- I'd be here all year. I'll make an exception for major items- like the "I Love Lucy" episode. The problem with listing TV shows is that it's impossible to get them - so what's the point of listing them...
One more that comes to mind
"Eve of Destruction" opening scene of BART but final sceen include a meeting of the major characters and a Slant 40
Total Recall with Arnold Schwartzenegger had a scene that took place in a futuristic subway station. I believe it was filmed on the Mexico City subway.
There was an original scene from "Escape from New York" which featured Kurt Russel making an escape on a MARTA train.
And also the scene from the last Superman movie, in which he stops a runaway Metropolis subway train(really a Lodon metro).
And more recently, an Alanis Morrisette video with her standing naked in a subway station(city and station unknown- My eyes began to burn. A naked Alanis Morrisette is not a pretty site!)
[And also the scene from the last Superman movie, in which he stops a runaway Metropolis subway train(really a Lodon metro).]
Also in Superman 3, there's a scene with Clark Kent and Lana Lang and Lana Lang's kid sitting on a NY City subway (I don't know which line). The train is moving and all of a sudden the lights go out and the passangers start to scream and the kid says to his mom "Mommy, what's happening?" and she replies, "I don't know honey." I remember thinking at the time that it was an odd reaction to such a common occurence, but then I guess subway lights don't go out on other systems.
Some shows are available - Jackie Gleason's Honeymooners and Star Trek for sure, and I think Lucy also (but am not 100% positive of that).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ahh you know I never realized that. In fact, the I Love Lucy ep. "Lucy and the Loving Cup" is on Vol 9. of the I Love Lucy CLassics collection. Must go order.. must go order.. :)
-Dave
again out of town--Subway-- most of the story takes place in the Paris Metro including folks who live down there.
Crocodile Dundee (the first one) ends on a subway platform. Is this in NY?
Yes it is. It is the unused and abandoned lower level of the 9th Avenue BMT station, which was dressed up as Times Square. Look closely and you can see the "9th Avenue" tablets on the wall. This
station on the border of Borough Park and Sunset Park in Brooklyn.
The upper level, which is outdoors just below grade, serves the "B" line though they don't use the center track. The lower level has been closed for over twenty years. It used to serve the Culver Line going out to Coney Island via McDonald Avenue. There was a shuttle link between the "B" and "F" lines but that has been demolished. The Culver Shuttle trains used this lower level.
Wayne
If I'm not mistaken, the lower level at 9th Ave. was disguised as 59th St. Columbus Circle. There are AA and B information signs visible above the tracks.
And, speaking of Crocodile Dundee, the sequel also has a subway sequence featuring an A train of R-38s at Hoyt-Schermerhorn on one of the abandoned outer tracks. There are door chime sounds dubbed in as the doors close. The most amazing part is that Hoyt-Schermerhorn isn't wearing a disguise - the station pillars really do say "Hoyt"!
[The most amazing part is that Hoyt-Schermerhorn isn't wearing a disguise - the station pillars really do say "Hoyt"! ]
Probably free advertising for Hoyt Cinemas
I just saw another one--"City Across the River". The film was set in Brooklyn. They showed the WIlly B and trains across the Willy B.
Another movie, which admittedly I haven't seen, but must have numerous subway scenes is "Just Another Girl on the IRT." Has anyone seen this?
Here's the URL for a review of the movie:
http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/WomensStudies/FilmReviews/girl-on-irt-mcalister
Hi Larry, I have been in touch with my book man about "A History of the New York City Subway System" and the first question he asked me was "Who was the publisher?" I didn't know. He is not familiar with the book but is willing to try to locate it for me. He asked if I could find out the publisher's name and year published. I know that you said 1976 and 1977 but I think you were referring to the three separate books. Can you help me with the necessary information?
Regards,Karl B.
It's in the Subway Bibliography - Rare and Early Books section. It was self published by Joe Cunningham. Good luck finding it. I have one of the three books (Vol 3. Independent and City Ownership) which was a real find...
-Dave
An updated edition was printed in 1993 containing all three
volumes bound into one book. My copy says "This book is
reissued in a limited printing of 550 copies". Credited as
publisher are John Schmidt, Robert Giglio and Kathleen Lang.
Giglio is a TA motorman and was an ERA member at the time. He
sold the books at several ERA meetings. He might still have
some, or you could check with Arnold Joseph.
My thanks to our host Dave P, and also Jeff H for the information! It does sound as if I don't have much chance of finding a copy of that book. I don't know this Arnold Joseph but I think I heard somewhere that he is a book dealer. I will pass all of the information on to my book dealer in hopes that he will know the man. It does sound like a lost cause though, I probably have a better chance of riding the old Lexington Ave EL in 1999 than ever finding the book in question.
Thanks Again, Karl B.
Karl: David answered your question about the publishers. Arnold Joseph is still listed in the Manhattan Yellow Pages at 1140 Broadway.The telephone number is 212-532-0019. He sometimes shows up at railfan shows. Do not make a trip to his store in New York unless you check with him first as he maintains a somewhat fluid schedule.
Regards,Larry
Fluid is putting it mildly! But he is a delightful gentleman with a wealth of knowledge and material - well worth the effort.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I see that you have had dealings with Mr. Joseph too.
Larry
Yes, a couple of years ago. As it turned out, he didn't have what I needed, but he was a pleasure to deal with nonetheless.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have made contact with several book dealers including Mr. Joseph. It does not sound like there is much chance of finding any of those three books or the reprint. At least I am on record with them as interested in the books. Thanks everyone for the information.
Perhaps someone knows, or can direct me to a resource that will tell me, the following measurements? I need them for a story I am writing.
The distance below street level of the platform at Times Square for the 1, 2, 3, 9.
The distance below street level of the platform at Times Square for the 7.
The length of the track of the Shuttle train between Times Square and Grand Central.
The distance from where 7 trains go, west of Times Square (it's a loop, right?) and Times Square station, say the center of the station platform, roughly.
The approximate distance between the centers of the platforms of the following 7 train stations: Times Square and 5th Avenue, 5th Avenue and Grand Central, and the distance from Grand Central to where the East River begins.
The width of the platform at the 7 train station of 5th Avenue
Your help is very much appreciated.
Jeff Benz
I can tell you that the 42nd St.shuttle is 0.8 miles long.
Otherwise,????????????????????????????????????????????
> The distance from where 7 trains go, west of Times Square (it's a
> loop, right?) and Times Square station, say the center of the
> station platform, roughly.
I'd say about 900 feet, and the end of the #7 does not end as a loop. It dead-ends against the lower level of the 42nd St/8th Ave IND.
--Mark
I must give resounding applause for all responsible for the historical Philly transit photos.
I'll fish around to see if Ican find any.
Mostly thank Joe Testagrose- he's not a subtalk reader but you can write him at joet@nycsubway.org. I just put up a load of his photos this past weekend- Trolleys (general), Trolleys (PCCs), and Rapid Transit/Commuter Rail (into which I lumped the P&W/NHSL).
Visit the Philadelphia Pages.
-Dave
This morning while waiting for the PATH train @ the WFC I noticed that over on track 1 workers were installing subway columns, signs, benches, walls garbage cans. One sign on the wall said West 4th Street. I couldn't get their attention but one of them had a Law & Order Jacket on. Is there a connection that a subway train can be brought in or probably just use a PATH train, or maybe no train at all.
They'll just use a Path train if necessary.
I was just in the WTC but didn't notice what was going on.
Law & Order has used the Number 1 Platform for shoots before, and they just call it "the subway". The episode I remember had Briscoe and the partner du season interview a subway employee about a shooting on a train.
-Dave
They had an episode that I caught on A&E a few weeks back, where they passed off Hoboken Terminal for Penn Station. In a later episode (one of the 'Homicide' crossovers) they use the real Penn Station. Production companies will use whatever they can for sets. All the better that a scene depicting NYC is actually SHOT in NYC.
-Hank
Hey at least they are not using Toronto for the shoot.
To Dave and all the Subtalkers:
Looking at the activity on this part of the site since the new server was activated, I see two changes. First, the number of posts and posters has greatly increased. Second, many items are being hashed through again as new people ask the old questions. These include:
Second Av. Subway
Movies
Why some lines do or do not run express (especially BMT Broadway)
IND Second System
Manhattan (&Williamsburg) Bridge
Deep and High Stations
Lights, Signs, GE vs Westinghouse, Car Features ...
Astoria & Corona Joint Operation
etc.
Some of this stuff is in the FAQ, but a message to new posters explaining where to find some of this material (perhaps a link to prior threads in the archives) might cut down on the numnber of new posts on old issues.
Anybody have any new ideas on this,
Since we moved to the new server, Subtalk hits more than doubled (to 75,000+ a week); the speed is keeping people here and reading and posting more. People who were scared off because it was just too damn slow are coming back.
As for the topics... well, there's a link to the FAQ at the top of the page. Managing links to old threads is a pain in the ass. There are 27,000 subtalk posts in the archives and to search through them is a major impact to the server (which is why only the most recent 2,500 are available - this number was "the most recent 1,000" prior to the server move).
The FAQ doesn't cover all those things you list (but it should). Maybe some people could write some new articles for the FAQ.
-Dave
The board is a living thing and people come and go
Just because something has been discussed dosent mean that everything has been said or that someone else dosent want to talk about it. If it is something I have had enough of or no interest in I don't read the thread.
The new server is working great and I am pleased to see the interest in this site and transit.
To Dave and all who keep this thing running THANKS
With reference to the new movie list.
The Pope of Greenwich Village, if I recall correctly has not just an incidental background subway but a scene that takes place on the platform, the train pulls in and a character gets off and everything.
THE WARRIORS is listed as 1967 but the film was from the early 80s. 1980 if I had to guess.
If TV shows count, then how about the Michael Jackson Video for the song BAD, shot in the subway, (Transit Museum I suppose.) and directed by Martin Scorcesse.
Let us not forget the film THE WIZ directed by Sydney Lumet. There is a very interesting subway scene in there. If I recall correctly. And wasn't Michael Jackson in that one too?
Also, the film MY DINNER WITH ANDRE (directed by Louis Malle) has a small sequence in the beginning where Wallace Shawn rides the subway to meet his old friend Andre Gregory. This is a very nice and natural look at the subway around 1982. You can tell that they did it on the sly on a real train in service; hand held with almost no crew. Maybe just a cameraman and Wally.
Wasn't there a John Cassevettes film that had scenes shot in the subway? I seem to recall seeing a photo of the actor in a scene where he is playing someone in a stupor aboard an empty R-30 type car.
Anyone have any ideas?
Yes, there is at least one. Cassevettes is a good place to look for New York stuff and subways.
More thoughts include.
The film SORRY, WRONG NUMBER which was based on the original stage play in which the sound of the passing EL is used to drown out the scream of a woman being murdered.
TWELVE ANGRY MEN also based on a stage production and also directed by Sydney Lumet. Henry Fonda is forman of a jury which includes Jack Warden, Lee J. Cobb and E.G. Marshal. They deliberate on a murder case which involves the timing of a passing EL.
AFTER HOURS directed by Martin Scorcesse has a scene where Griffin Dunn tries to enter a Greenwich Village subway late at night but the price has been jacked up to $1.50 from 90 cents. He can't afford the inflated price and tries pleads with the token clerk (funny) before trying to jump the turnstyle. A cop is waiting.
The recent film release WINGS OF THE DOVE has a few shots of the London Underground in the Victorian Era including a steam engine.
Is the film TURK 187 not about a graffiti artist?
Another movie, "Cry Terror" with Rod Steiger as a kidnapper/extortionist. He's hit by 600 volts and then by a subway train near the end of the movie. I'm not sure if it was NYCT or PATH, however.
One of TV's great villians was killed in the subway...Frank Nitti, played by Bruce Gordon, falls off a subway platform in front of a speeding (Chicago?) train, ending his long-running role as Eliot Ness' chief antagonist in "The Untouchables" series. It's one of those speeded-up shots of what appears to be a NYC train that's used.
What a crime boss figure is doing riding the subway is never explained.
Many "Untouchables" shows used subway platforms as locales, usually when Ness is getting stool-pigeon information. As this was a Desilu 1950s production, verissimilitude is at a minimum.
In real life Nitti committed suicide, shortly after the end of World War II after having managed to stay alive through all of the gangster period.
I can't believe I forgot this one ... "Beneath the Planet of the Apes" starring Charlton Heston and James Franciscus. They enter a "cave" and then realize it was an entrance to the "Queensboro Plaza" subway station. Then there are lots of scenes with the "cave dwellers" at what looks like the lower levels of Grand Central Station.
--Mark
Sorry, just had to do it....
-Hank :)
It sounds like a P. D. Q. Bach title...
Don't forget the movie called " Beat It " made in 1984? I think. The story is about a guy who love to graffiti on the subway cars and someone who trying to paint his subway cars. Both of them got killed while touching third rail in the end of the movie.
Yeah, that was 'Turk 182'. It's about a guy getting revenge on the city for his brother, a disabled firefighter. IIRC, it involves a scene of the guy playing the mayor unveiling what is supposed to be the first train of graffitti-free subway cars.....which have the phrase 'Tyler Knew' painted on the side....
Long time since I've seen that movie.
-Hank
Your guess about the release of The Warriors is pretty close; it came out in 1979.
I have data on the number of people employed in the city each year back to 1950, income back to 1969, "Hub Bound Vehicles" back to the 1940s, housing production back to 1921, etc.
The available information on the number of people riding the trains and buses, however, is spotty. The "Facts and Figures" on the MTA's website gives a one-point overview, and "Under The Sidewalks of NY" has selected data in a footnote. The MTA issues a press release every now and then. But year by year, day by day data must exist somewhere, and now that the trends are up it might be really good to see it and post it. I was hoping it would be in "Facts and Figures", but it wasn't.
Can someone get it/tabulate it/post it? I'd like to see annual data for buses and subways back to 1960. I'd also be interested in ridership by day of the week and time of day, if available. If it exists on paper and needs to be entered into spreadsheets, I'd be willing to help.
I was also hoping that the MTA would post its budget -- revenues by source and expenditures by object -- on the Web for each agency. I guess some things are not intended for public scrutiny.
I would be interested in ridership by station. I know that years ago this data used to be available in the TA's "Transit Record." Does anyone know if this data is still availabel? Thanks.
EYE believe the info in the MTA big data base. Here at one of the "privates" we know riders by route & by day & by month ... well actually the TA doesn't know what we call a "route", but that's another story.
Neither eye nor anyone in DOT has access to "TA" data, you can understand that. We just wish THEY didn't have access to our data, but that still another story.
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone have available to them a timetable from that time, Late 68 and 69? I'm curious to know what the running time of the NX was from Stillwell av to 59th ST and 4th Av. The rest is something I can cull from much more recent timetables but the straight shot express from Stillwell to 59 is a little mystery of mine. Any hard data would be most appreciated.
Here was a funky "Twilight Zone" like movie where Vietnam vet Tim Robbins has eerie flashbacks from the war that include faceless humans riding Redbirds in Williamsburg/Greenpoint!
Besides the Williamsburg Bridge closing, do anybody know about any other upcoming service changes in the near future? (Not talking about what I see on the Transit Authority website.)
Service will also change along the A and C lines in Brooklyn, with C local and A express at all times except nights. And normal service (B and Q) will resume along 63rd Street to 21st Street in Queensbridge.
In addition to that, report are that the F will again run express in Brooklyn during rush hours.
Michael
" F will again run express in Brooklyn during rush hours. "
If that is so, I will walk from E13th to McDonnald Ave for a one seat ride to/from work (in good weather). And for go my D/Q swtich to the F.
Those who claim that they think they know that F Express service is coming back or not......please....the pick boards do not tell you whether a train is express or not. You need to take a look at a timetable. The timetable will give you specifics as to what the exact service is.When the pick boards go up, the timetable is done and is only supposed to be superseded by a supplement schedule.
Of course if there is anyone from Operations and Planning looking in, maybe they could give us the real info. I'm presently working in the IRT and don't have the direct access to a timetable for the upcoming pick.
I have been posting the NYC TRANSIT COMMITTEE AGENDAS
---there is not mention of new Routes,or changes other than the A/C
I will be posting the March Agenda Shortly
THAT's what I said I saw the timetables and there is no exp service in Brooklyn on the F line any time soon.
I'm sorry O.W.K. Sometimes i'll miss a post here and there and I may duplicate some information. I will try to be a little more considerate and not step on any toes.
I do however want to reiterate that pick boards are deceiving because running times fluctuate at different times of the day. The only way to tell what kind of service there is (express,local, what corridor,etc) is by looking at the timetable.
YOU are right .No need to say your sorry.Take care and be safe out there.
Where do you get your info from I saw the work programs and timetables for "F" service,there is no exp.service in Brooklyn for this upcoming pick
Unless they can fix up Bergen Street's lower level in a hurry, I don't think the MTA is going to be running F expresses non-stop from 7th Ave. to Jay St. anytime soon. That would really get the Caroll Gardens people up in arms.
Not if they have V's or alternating F's running local (They might complain about the headways of the F's, so the V idea is better)
The F express was almost a reality as both this and the weekend C & A was in the 1995 proposals, but then cut by Pataki.
I was going by information I remember seeing elsewhere on this site.
I do not see the pick charts, so I will assume you are correct and there is no F express service. However, when I said F express, I was thinking the Church Avenue-Kings Highway segment only. And I heard/saw that was a done deal.
Michael
Does anyone know where (if possible ) I can get hold of Daniel L. Turner's paper "Comprehensive Rapid Transit System" of 1920?.His paper ,in altered form, led to the developement of the IND.Any answers gratefully received.
The passageway above the 6th Avenue IND subway allow one to walk from 34th Street Station to 42nd Street Station. The reason for the passageway was to allow a transfer to the old 6th Avenue Elevated Line at it's 38th Street Station. Good idea back in the 1930's however it was no longer needed a couple of years later when the 6th Avenue EL was torn down.
Is that passage way still open??? I walked through it once and that was before they closed that passageway between the 34th St-6th Ave IND/BMT and Penn Station
No, it's closed off. Ironically, by the time the 6th Ave. line opened in December 1940, the el was long gone.
The passageway was closed several years ago for security reasons, following a rape. In a way that's quite a loss. Having an underground passageway sure would come in handy during bad weather.
The passageway was just an isolated link. That's why it was less traveled, which is why it was unsafe, which is why it was closed. I think it would be great if we had an integreted underground newtork with retail, like Montreal.
If the passageway along the #7 were extended to Grand Central, the passageway from Herald Square to Penn was reopened, a passageway was built along 6th Avenue up to the Rockefeller Center network, etc, that could be the start of something.
[The passageway was just an isolated link. That's why it was less traveled, which is why it was unsafe, which is why it was closed. I think it would be great if we had an integreted underground newtork with retail, like Montreal.]
Also consider the existing corridor that runs along the west side of the Herald Square station outside of the fare-control area. Even though this corridor is wide and brightly lit, it's still a pretty gruesome sight, used as a bedroom (and sometimes restroom) for skells.
It sure would make alot of LIRR commuters happy to have a indoor way to get to the 6th Ave lines from Penn Station. It may only be one long block, but in bad weather its a pain, especially in the AM/PM rush. Many people use their own indoor routes, ending up going thru Macy's, etc. Is therr a way (maybe thru SubTalk) to get public opinon heard about reopening this passageway? Many would sign a petition at Penn Station.
[It sure would make alot of LIRR commuters happy to have a indoor way to get to the 6th Ave lines from Penn Station. It may only be one long block, but in bad weather its a pain, especially in the AM/PM rush. Many people use their own indoor routes, ending up going thru Macy's, etc. Is therr a way (maybe thru SubTalk) to get public opinon heard about reopening this passageway? Many would sign a petition at Penn Station.]
I'd sure like it if the Herald Square-Penn Station passageway (under the south sidewalk of 33rd Street) were reopened. It would have saved me from being soaked on more than one occasion :-)
Unfortunately, I doubt that public opinion would get this passageway reopened. Thanks to crime and skell problems, and their accompanying liability concerns, the Transit Authority is reluctant to maintain passageways outside fare-controlled areas. As I noted earlier in this thread, one look at the much-wider and much-better-lit corridor along the west side of the Herald Square station (into which the closed 33rd Street passageway opens) gives some justification for the TA's policy.
There are a couple of other reasons why the 33rd Street passageway is unlikely to reopen. Gimbel's department store had paid for some or all of its maintenance costs. Once Gimbel's failed, the TA was unwilling to shoulder the entire cost itself. I also believe that the lower level of Sbarro's restaurant blocks off the west end of the passageway. Finally, after years of disuse the passageway probably is in very poor condition.
There is a reasonably long passageway here in Boston... it connects the Red/Green Line station at Park Street with the Red/Orange Line station at Downtown Crossing (yes... it parallels the Red line for this stretch). It is officially called the "Winter Street Concourse" as it is below Winter Street (Winter turns into Summer at Washington Street :-).
The tunnel is well lit and clean; there are occasional pan-handlers or musicians but rarely a skell. One reason this passageway may succeed is due to the fact that the Boston subway shuts down from about 1:00 - 5:00 a.m.
As a compromise for the NYC passageways, could NYCT reopen one or more, with gates at either end, and close it during night hours? This would let them clean it; but at the same time leave it open during busy hours so that we patrons can keep warm and dry. I'm sure that with creative gating, they could even put the Herald Square to 8th Avenue passageway within fare control if that would help.
But I agree restoring that corridor in particular would be a tremendous benefit to the riding public.
[As a compromise for the NYC passageways, could NYCT reopen one or more, with gates at either end, and close it during night hours? This would let them clean it; but at the same time leave it open during busy hours so that we patrons can keep warm and dry. I'm sure that with creative gating, they could even put the Herald Square to 8th Avenue (actually 7th) passageway within fare control if that would help.]
That would seem to be a sensible idea. Closing the 33rd Street (Herald Square-Penn Station) passageway at night would be no great loss because Penn Station commuters are its most likely users, and their numbers dwindle after rush hour. If it's only kept open when relatively busy, crime should be less of an issue.
The more I think of it, some of the skell problem with the existing north-south corridor along the west side of the Herald Square station might be attributable to the fact that it's so wide. There's plenty of space for skells to beg, sprawl out, and relieve themselves (note that the last item is not conjecture but based on my personal observation). On the other hand, I believe the 33rd Street passageway is much narrower, which might limit its attraction to skells.
Of course, there's still the problem with the (possible) lack of access on the west end of the passageway, and physical deterioration.
(Width of passageways -- less problem with skells). Montreal obviously does not have NYC's concentration of drug abusers and mentally ill people, but it does have them. They are on the street in a particular part of town, and in the rail station, but not in the underground city. Why? Do people sack out in the passageways under Rockefeller Center? Why not?
I think the key for security is activity, and an overnight shutdown. The Montreal underground doesn't have passageways with tile walls on each side, it has retail and restaurants abutting the walkways, which pass through office complexes and shopping centers. All those people keeps the possibility of attack low. Moreover, I'm not sure of this but I think the whole thing shuts down overnight, beginning at a late hour, like Grand Central.
Underground is a great place for late night entertainment -- the activity is less disturbing to neighbors since there are none, and if you get a little tipsy you're going home by train anyway. I think NYC could use a system like Montreals, if it is lined with commercial space.
"I think the key for security is activity, and an overnight shutdown. The Montreal underground doesn't have passageways with tile walls on each side, it has retail and restaurants abutting the walkways, which pass through office complexes and shopping centers. All those people keeps the possibility of attack low. Moreover, I'm not sure of this but I think the whole thing shuts down overnight, beginning at a late hour, like Grand Central."
It's exactly the same with the aforementioned Pedway system in Chicago. The walkways are lined with shops, and though not all the spaces are rented, enough are, and with enough of a mix of stores (cleaners, barbers, fast-food restaurants, travel agents, a food court near the Courthouse, etc.), that there is good traffic. The Pedway includes a long windowfront of, and several entrances to, Marshall Field's department store.
Here is another solution to the passageway issue. Have the TA put the Herald Square--Penn Station corridor under fare control and also look into installing airport type "moving walkways". This would promote more usage since the moving sidewalks could provide a respite for weary feet. Plus, by placing these implments along the walls, this cuts down on space for skells to camp. Also with the NYPD placing more patrol officers on bicycle, a handful of cops could cover the 4snd Street mezzanine on the 6th Avenue line, have a straight shot to the Herald Square Complex and then again over into the Penn Station area via the re-opened crosstown corridor. The fencing could also be arranged to include the Bryant Park pedestrian walkway to the 5th Avenue Station on the 7 could also be accomodated. Imagine being able to people mover it from Penn to Herald Square, then after a short walk from the end of one conveyor to another for the standing ride to 4snd Street and then after another short walk a one stop subway ride to Grand Central? A similiar approach could be employed for the Times Square-Port Authority pedestrain tunnel, with moving sidewalks and bicycle cops.
Some other places to put moving sidewalks.
--Between the Lexington IRT Mezzanine and the Times Square shuttle platforms at Grand Central.
--The tunnel beneath Bryant Park and the Library connecting the Sixth Avenue to the 7 at 5th Avenue.
--Between the World Trade Center shopping mall entrance to the stub-end terminal and the Chambers Street IND Mezz.
Hows about placing one over track 2 of the TS shuttle, providing an option of waiting for the train, or goiung by foot.
Actually, I recall a plan being proposed in the 1960s for replacing the 42nd St. Shuttle trains with moving sidewalks.
Was this before or after the 1964 fire?
Sbarro's does not block the tunnel. The tunnel is on the other side of the at mezzanine adjacent to the stairs to the south side of 33rd St. (Sbarro is on the north side). If you're at the toke booth (where they've moved it--against the south wall), and you go to the left up the few steps, there's a door right in front of you, and the stair to the street to the right. The door is the tunnel.
They should try to bring it within the fare controlled area. I was hoping that was what they were doing when they were reoing the area, but with the booth against the wall, it would probably be harder to connect the passage directly to the #1 platform.
Another idea, someone mentioned, was a moving sidewalk.
Also, I always wanted there to be the 41st St passage extended to 6th Av, and from 5th Av 7 station to GCT. Also on 6th Av from 42nd to the 47th station complex. That would really be a cool underground network. As a teen, I was always fascinated by the extent ot the passages that were there.
Almost, but not quite.
The passageway, with an entrance/exit at W. 38th Street, was compensation to merchants along Sixth Avenue who feared a drop-off in business after the subway opened, because it didn't have a 38th Street station as the "El" had had.
David
I remember walking through this passageway during the summer of 1970. I did not know the history behind it with the 6th Av. "L". I also walked the 34th St. passage between Penn. Sta. and the IND/BMT a number of times during the 60's (most often during the evenings - leaving ERA NY Div. meetings - taking the D/F to 34th St. and walking over to Penn Sta. for the LIRR.
I think its a real shame that both passageways have been closed. They greatly benefitted the commuter/traveler/railfan during bad weather. They provided, as well, a unique, long, underground walk - something else to make Manhattan and N.Y.C. special. Especially after the transfer was open from the IND to the IRT at 42nd St., you could walk from the IND entrance at 32nd St./8th Ave. all the way up the the corner of 42nd and Fifth - that was something!
Such long underground walks are quite possible in Chicago, using the world famous "Pedway" system. It is actually not famous at all, almost an inside secret, but it does stetch through many parts of the loop, and is a big advantage for commuters (rail and el) in the nasty winters there!
FYI, in New York, it's an 'el'. In Chicago, it's the 'L'.
Don't ask me why....
-Hank
It was closed a few years ago after someone was attacked there.
[It was closed a few years ago after someone was attacked there.]
So we should all be punished because of one person's inhumanity?
I have the movie taped and I just fast-forwarded through it to see the car numbers. At the start of the movie the conductor is in 7434.
The lead car (hi-jacked) is 7339 and as far as I can see it was used in all subsequent scenes. The train right behind Pelham 123 is headed by 7439
There's a certain irony in the R-22s being used, because of all the IRT equipment that arrived between 1955 and 1964, the R-21/22s were probably the least used trains on the Pelham line. It was the mainstay of the R-17s, R-28s and the R-33/36s over the past 35 years, the R-21/22s tended to hang out on the 7th Ave line more, or if they were on the Lex, on the 4 and 5.
But for dramatic purposes, the drop sash window at the front of the R-21/22 probably worked better for the filmmakers. I don't know how they'd deal with the transverse cab modifications that will be standard on the IRT a few years from now.
AT Grand Central the supervisor got off and boarded the express. I used the slow motion feature of my VCR-the express train car baorded by supervisor was 7399.
At what point in the movie does that occur? I know that Mr. Mattson, the veteran conductor, gets off at "Grand Central" before the train is hijacked, but we don't know if he does, in fact, change to an express.
BTW, if you listen carefully in that sequence, you can hear an unmistakeable "kssss" sound just before the doors open. It is the exact same sound emitted by the R-10s as the DRO triggers are moved by the conductor. That's fine and good, except for one thing: the R-22s had electric door engines, which naturally didn't make that sound.
The reason I say express is that he walked across to another train. Therefore it had to be an express train. The noise, which I did not pick up may have been another train on the uptown side which was not shown?
I was just on the City of New York Civil Service Web site. The application period is March 3 to 23. Good luck to all
OK David! How and where do I get an application? Can I go to 370 Jay and get an application there (I will be in town on March 15)?
Is there a fee?
Where's the web site?
Wayne
You can get all Applications at 18 Washington Street in Manhattan.
Take the NO.4 or 5 to Bowling Green or the No.1/9 or N,R TO Rector St.
Wayne the rest is in your email.
Just to add that the agency at 18 Washington Street (Right where the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel comes up out of the ground) is the City's Department of Citywide Administrative Services and is not related in any way to the TA or MTA. They run all civil service tests.
You can get the conductor exam notice and all other city civil service exam notices from:
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dcas/html/ocexams.html
You must have ACROBAT READER to read the notices.
An adv in Tuesdays NY Times, that initially looks like a news item
(you know the kind they have to preface with "Advertisement") gives some clues to the future here in NYC.
- Wash. DC is getting first Smart Card sys in US, Chicago will be next, and since the suits there talk to the suits in NYC can we be far behind ? Locally they have admitted that they are "studying" it.
- London: Cubic is awarded 17 year $1.75 Billion "Prestige/TranSys" contract for automated pass gates, upgraded ticketing mach, new bus fareboxes & maint in greater London transit system.
- You'll also find Cubic at: Wash. DC; San Fran; Atlanta; Hong Kong; Seoul; Sydney; (two cities in) China; Sinapore; Kuala Lumpur.
Should you want to read the entire three column adv, goto page B20
Mr t__:^)
Can NYC be far behind? YES!!!
About a year ago a couple of banks (Chase and Citibank to be specific) ventured on a joint experiment on the upper West Side. The test lasted about a year and was a dismal failure.
There are no known plans to resurrect the project in the near future unless the technology improves and the cost goes down. One of the drawbacks was the reluctance of merchants to spend the $$$ to buy the terminals required to process a smart card. The present equipment that most stores have can only read and not write.
At this point in time Debit cards are still only now cacthing on for purchases (and those are limited).
I won't hold my breath wating for smart cards in NY. Besides, who knows if they will work well in Chicago?
But what are the advantages of using Smart Cards for the subway?
Smart/proximity cards don't get swiped/dipped. The customer leaves the card in their wallet/pocketbook & just gets it near the reader.
Advantages:
- Card is automatically read comming & going
- Card stores much more data, i.e. debit card for use elsewhere
Disadvantage:
- The card is much thicker
- If stolen you have more to loose
Mr t__:^)
I can also think of another disadvantage and that is inadvertant reads. I.e. i'm standing by the turnstiles waiting for someone meanwhile I'm close enough for my card to have been read. Believe me the readers have to be pretty strong not to have to hold the card right up to it (like other proximity card systems I've seen-- my building at home and my building at work).
-Dave
(Inadvertant reads) I can just imagine teens getting stabbed in fights because someone else went through as their card was read. Or cops busting some kid who fell victim to that and decided to jump the turnstile, as the real villain gets away.
In a turnstile situation, smart card readers would need to have a maximum effective read distance of approximately 1/3 the distance between turnstile readers - not a very great distance. If you wanted to avoid taking the card out of your wallet/purse/etc., you would have to have your wallet/purse/etc. on a designated side (or it might be read by the adjacent turnstile, not yours). Also, the user would have to carry their transit smart card separately from any other smart card in their wallet/purse/etc. - proximity of two or more cards normally confuses the readers and nothing gets read. I have two cards, depending on which building I'm entering at work, and I must separate them or I can't get in.
An additional consideration would be: if a person had more than one smart card that would be accepted by the turnstile, would both be read and debited?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In this case I'm glad the TA suits are waiting for other cities to get the bugs out of the process before embracing it here.
Mr t__:^)
It wouldn't surprise me if the current technology had as long a run as the token. Money is scarce. Now that we have the Metrocard, which is more important, a modestly better fare system or a vastly better signal system? The only way I see it changing is if the change would be very, very cheap.
Our friends in Washington D.C., and soon at the Windy City should be able to give us a pritty good idea of how they work.
P.S. Those AVM (MertoCard ATMs) are keeping Cubic very busy, but I haven't been able to find out if it's installation or problems.
Anybody have some recent experiences ... just nosy ...
Mr t__:^)
The cards are not always thick. I've seen thick proximity cards, but Drexel University student IDs have proximity chips in them, and are about as thin as a piece plastic gets - in fact, mine is much thinner than my driver's license, which just a laminated piece of paper...
Rich, Thanks for the input. I didn't know that they made them as thin as a credit card/MetroCard.
This site keeps reminding me of it's value ...
Mr t__:^)
One other thing to note about Drexel cards is that they include BOTH a proximity chip (used mainly to enter buildings on campus) and a magnetic stripe (used mainly for debit card transactions). It has to be thin to slide through mag-stripe readers. But this raises the idea of perhaps a combo Metrocard, so that the MTA wouldn't have to upgrade to proximity readers all at once...
I have a copy of Cubic's "Summer/Fall '98" newsletter. In an article about the Wash. DC system it says "The smart card contains an integrated circuit chip, read/write memory and a radio frequency inductive circuit that enables data exchange when the card is brought within two inches of the gate-mounted antenna."
I seem to recall a disk shaped divice on the side of the gate, but I can't find a copy of it in my file. So, maybe one of our Wash DC friends will confirm what the reader looks like & where it's located.
Mr t__:^)
Cubic has a web page about it. It describes the project pretty well. The pictures aren't great, but it looks like the readers are on the top of the turnstiles.
http://www.gocard.cubic.com/trans-app.html
I'll have to try it, as I only used "customer.complaint@cubic.com"
Mr t__:^)
Actually, don't let the subject line fool you- the movie called "The Incident" (circa 1967) starring Martin Sheen and Jeff Bridges' brother (can't think of his name) was about an "incident" on a NYC subway train. If there is anyone familiar with the movie, can you pleeeaseee tell me what was the make of the subway car? I have not seen the movie in years but am considering picking it up this week for $29.95 from my video dealer. I think this is an R-4 subway train but not positive. I seem to remember seeing a few station names when the train was elevated and it seemed like the train was in the Bronx on an IRT line. If so, this would disagree with my thinking that these were R-4 subway cars since R-4 cars were in BMT and IND divisions (??). Does anyone know for sure?
By the way, this movie is not for the faint at heart.....extremely racey subject matters. Very progressive movie for the 1960s.
Cheers,
MIKE
Mike Gallant, Jeff Bridges brother's name is Beau Bridges.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Charlie, thanks a million for the name Beau Bridges. It was right on the tip of my tongue....
Cheers,
MIKE
Those cars were 1939 World's Fair cars, numbered 5653-5702. It was filmed on the #4 Jerome Avenue IRT line.
I knew it, I knew it! Thanks, Jamie. My memory has served me well over the years. I just didn't know exactly which IRT subway line it was in the Bronx.
About these "1939 World's Fair" cars- were they given a R-series designation? Or was the first R-series for the IRT division was the R-11 car?
Cheers,
MIKE
The first IRT car to be assigned an "R" number was the R-11 as you mentioned. The earlier cars (such as the ones in question) were referred to as Lo-V or Hi-V cars.
Please, lets check facts before spreading misinformation.
The R11 was a BMT car.
The R12 was the first of the R-cars on the IRT....
If you really want to get technical, the R-11s were the "million dollar" cars designed for the 2nd Ave. line. They did spend most of their careers on the BMT when they did run, specifically the Brighton line and the Franklin Ave. Shuttle, and also appeared on the West End in 1968 with #3 signs. They have been discussed previously.
The "location" scenes of the movie "The Incident" was filmed on the Bronx portion of the Third Avenue El, not the Jerome Avenue Line, although the signage was staged for the Jerome Line. The tunnel portal of the White Plains Road Line can also be seen (note how the W/F Low-V's change to R-types). The interiors (subway car and token booth) were set mock-ups I believe.
The cars portrayed are the 1938 IRT World's Fair Lo-Vs built by St. Louis Car Co.; the car in which the interior scenes take place is actually a very painstakingly built studio mockup of #5674. The motor sounds were all dubbed in.
I'd love to pick up a video copy myself, although I did tape it when it aired a few years back on American Movie Classics. Very gripping, if I may say so.
I agree with you, Steve. Very "gripping" movie indeed. I vividly remember being quite disturbed by it's theme. Still, it is a classic and I must have it on video.
Cheers,
MIKE
Harold Lloyd made a film in 1928 called SPEEDY which was set in New York and shot on location with great New York backdrops including The Brooklyn Bridge, Washington Square, Fifth Avenue, Steeplechase and Luna Park. In the film there is a scene where Lloyd takes his girl to Coney Island on the Subway/El. Various gags include trying to get a seat on a crowded New York subway/El in 1928! This was Lloyds last silent film and a treasure trove of New York backdrops. As I recall, Lloyd plays a cab driver obsessed with baseball. The highlight of the film comes when BABE RUTH gets into his taxi and there is a wild "silent movie" chase through the streets of New York to get to Yankee Stadium in time for the big game! Although not remembered as well as Buster Keaton or Charlie Chaplin, at the time, Harold Lloyd was the biggest and highest paid film star in America. Babe Ruth too was at the top of his game coming off the famous 1927 season in which he hit 60 home runs. Later that year the Yankees swept the World Series in four straight games for the second year in a row to become what is considered by most to be the greatest team in history. Every player in the starting line up made the Hall of Fame.
Not to drift far off the subway target, but your take on the 1927 Yankees is off. Not everyone on the starting team got to Cooperstown unless they took a bus tour. The catchers (split between Grabowski and Bengough), SS Mark Koenig, and 3B Joe Dugan are non-HOFers, and I'm not sure about OF Bob Meusel - don't have a guide in front of me.
Not to disparage the '27 Yankees -- I still think they are the greatest of all time, but they were not 100% Hall of Famers.
I am looking for track maps and operations information from the following companies: Central Railroad of New Jersey(CNJ), a local shortline company in Hoboken and Weehawken(NJ), and the South Brooklyn Railroad. Where can I find them on the Web or by phone?
The South Brooklyn Railway trackage is drawn out in Peter Dougherty's "Tracks of the New York Subway" book.
The South Brooklyn Railway's original right-of-way is none a memory: freight cars used to run down the middle of MacDonald Ave. The SBK trackage started at the docks by 2nd Ave. and 38th Sts. Then through the old BMT yard at 36th and continuing over to 39th Street and Fort Hamilton Pkwy. Then trains would go down McD all the way to the terminal at Ave. X and the Coney Island shops.
Check out the older postins on SBK operations. There are some interesting info on this urban shortline.
Doug aka BMTman
WELL I WAS WONDERING HOW TO OBTAIN INFORMATION CONCERNING EXAMS FOR POSITION FOR CONDUCTORS MAINLY MOTERMEN POSITIONS. I HAVE ALWAYS LOVED THE TRANSIT SYSTEM AND THIS WAS A DREAM OF MINE. MY FATHER WORKED FOR TRANSIT BUT UNFORTUNATLY WE DO NOT COMMUNCATE. IF ANYONE HAS ANY INFORMATION ON EXAMS, DATE OF EXAMS WHERE INFORMATION COULD DBE OBTAINED OR TEST PREPARATION BOOKS FOR MOTORMEN, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. I CAN BE EMAILED AT lionheart_46@hotmail.com
Try reading a few threads down about "Conductor Exam Now Out"
-Dave
THANKS DAVE I DID NOT SEE IT AT FIRST THANKS FOR POINTIN IT OUT.
I will be in town tomorrow. I would like to know when will they stop giving these applications.
My son will also be getting the Exam. Hours 9:00AM to 5:00PM
If you are not currently working for New York City Transit you can not be a Train Operator. That Promotion only
Lionel,
All CAPS is considered shouting in WebSpeak. Please turn off your CAPS LOCK.
why is the five being stopped at 238st-neried ave instead of going all the way to 241st? it was running there for years and all of a sudden it was removed. is this a sign of things to come such as the 5 train being pulled back to say, gun hill road and then eventually no service along the white plains road line? also why is there no thru-express between 241st and 180st?
I would think because the 240ST yard is right there after you leave the station. Most of these trains goes into the yard.
Mike thats not 240 Yard that on the No.1 Line. The yard you ment was 239 St Yard. Also the reason why the No.5 trains last stop is 238 St. is so the train can go directly to the Yard. It cuts down the time for the crew to lay the train up then eat lunch and go to Dyre. I once worked that No.5 PM'S. You have 2 HRS to lay the train up and get to Dyre for the next trip with Lunch time Included.
And it's just a whole lot easier in the morning putting in the trains at 238th st than to relay them up at 241st and tie up an empty pocket (track) for a #2 train.
Thank you for that correction.
The entire nassau line is very outdated indeed, but here are just a few of my personal sugeestions to speed up service and add more ridership on this line. 1. M- OPERATES BETWEEN BAY PKWY ANB METR.AVE RUSH HOURS WHILE THE B TRIAN OPERATES AS A TRU EXPRESS BETWEEN BAY PARKWAY AND NINTH AVE. MIDDAY M WOULD OPERATE AGAIN TO NINTH AVE (I WISH) AND NIGHT HOURS ARE OKAY.
2. J-STARTS AT BROAD ST. SKIPS THE BOWERY OPERATES EXPRESS BETWEEN MARCY AND MYRTLE AVE THEN CONTINUES LOCAL TO BROADWAY JUNCTION AND SKIP STOP WITH THE Z TRAIN TO PARSONS
3. Z-STARTS AT BROAD ST AND SKIPS THE BOWERY OPERATES EXPRESS BETWEEN MARCY AND MYRTLE AVE, THEN EXPRESS BETWEEN MYRTLE AND BROADWAY JUNCTION THEN SKIPSTOP TO PARSONS.
NOTE THE IDEAS THAT I GAVE FOR THE JANDZ CAN BE SWITCHED AROUND ANY WAY. I KNOW THAT THIS WOULD TAKE A LOT OF RESCHEDULING OF TRAINS ANY MAY NO BE TOO REALISTIC, BUT I LIKE MANY RIDERS WHO HAVE USED THESE LINES ARE A LITTLE TIRED OF THE SLOWNESS OF THESE TRAINS. THIS WAY THE JAND Z CAN TRULY BE THE NASSAU ST. EXPRESSES
I always wondered why they dont use the middle track from Bway-Jct to Myrtle Av? The only time they use is for construction reroutes.
Please stop with the caps.
-Hank
I proposed a similiar idea in the past for J/Z service. Why not utilize the rest of the middle track along Broadway instead of a holding pen for out of service trains.
-GarfieldA
The Eastern Parkway to Myrtle section center track was last used for regular express service in the late 1960's when I used to used this route to go to elementary and then junior high school. I vaguely recall seeing the QJ as express here with the JJ or KK as local for a short time after the Chrystie Street connection opened, but I might be mistaken on this one.
I believe that I read a newspaper article a long time ago there were strength concerns about some very old elevated sections of this old structure, particulary near Gates Avenue where the Lexington Avenue junction was, if three trains went flying by simultaneously. There was quite a bit of rehabilitation done here since then.
I also remember waiting on the #15 express with a #14 right beside for the #10 to and from Myrtle to clear the crossover. This posed delays that I believe the NYCTA wanted to alleviate.
The middle track between Myrtle Ave. and Eastern Parkway was used by QJ, and later J trains, up until the KK, or K, as it was known by later, was discontinued in 1976. After that, skip-stop service was implemented along that stretch.
Regarding the idea of using the middle track from Bay Parkway to 9th Av on the West End during the rush hours.....I believe it's because there are quite a few work trains still on their way home to 38th st Yard well into the rush, so they don't bother scheduling it. (This goes the same for the F between Church Av and Kings Highway, the work trains are slogging back to Coney Island Yard and Stillwell Yard, well into the rush, so they don't bother scheduling it)
I think on the West End they also run both B and M service inbound local because this allows riders a proverbial one seat ride to either midtown (B) or downtown (M) Manhattan.
ISAW SOME OLD MAPS WITH THE K TRAIN OPERATING FROM THE JAMAICA/BROADWAY LINE ONTO THE SIXTH AVE LINE WHAT HAPPENDED TO THIS LINE AND WHY IS IT NO LONGER USED AS A WAY TO HELP SERVICEON THE NASSAU LINE? I HEARD THAT THERE WAS ALSO ACESS TO THE WILLAMSBURG BRIDGE FROM THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE TRAINS SO, WHAT HAPPENDED?
The link between the Jamaica Line and the 6th Ave Line is still there. It's currently used only by work trains and transfers. I don't believe that you can go from the Manhattan Bridge to the Williamsburg Bridge without a reverse move at B'Way Laff. from B-4 track to BJ-2 track to J-3/4 track to J-1 track. I would make 2 suggestions:
First: If you are interested in obscure routings, get a copy of Peter Dougherty's excellent "Tracks of the NYCity Subways".
Second: Posting in caps implies anger.
Even in the olden, pre-Chrystie St. days, you couldn't have gone from the Manhattan to the Williamsburg Bridge without a reverse move at Chambers St.
Why was this station built as an express but now used only as a local and for Ridge Avenue trains?
Early last year, express trains stopped there but not for very long.
Trackwise, the longest express stretch is from Erie to Olney, but routewise, it's Girard to Erie.
Also, there are tracks that ascend above the line north of Erie. Where do they go? Is that where new cars come on the line?
I think the tracks that rise up north of Erie Avenue were to have been part of NE Philadelphia extention of the Broad Street Subway, and construction was halted in the 30s due to the Depression (I think that's why they go nowhere)
Yes, that's correct. Also, a small 3-track yard of sorts is located here. When Ridge Spur trains turned at Erie, they came to this level, relayed, and went back down to the southbound local track.
I think the Hornet's first question referred to North Phila station. It was an express stop back when rush-hour expresses ran in the 60's and 70's but it never served the all-day express version begun when the K cars arrived in 83-84. Expresses started to call there in late 97 but it didn't last long.
When Connie Mack Stadium was in use, I recall Saturday game-day expresses on the line which stopped at North Phila and did much of their business there. After games, trains usually were lined up there to catch crowds headed in both directions. Fans really packed onto those trains! I think they were 6-car trains, which were fairly standard on the line at that time. They ran express down to Walnut, then switched over to the local and made all stops to Snyder, just as the rush-hour trains did.
Could the NE Philly extention still be done, maybe by connecting the old Reading shortline to New York to the subway? Or is this line heavily used by freight trains? I thought I saw on a Gousha map, some RR right-of-way that runs along Front Street near Erie? Could a subway connection be made to the subway there?
The Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passengers have reported in their newsletter from time to time on progress on various Northeast Philadelphia transit expansion options (See, for example the DVARP December 1994 newsletter). A Broad Street Subway Extension via Roosevelt Blvd, almost as originally proposed in the 1930's plan was last estimated to be in the $2.1 Billion range. Another plan using the Conrail Short Line was also quoted as another option for the Broad Street subway future.
Rapid transit to NE Phila is once again (!) being studied as you read this. The City Planning Commission is performing the study. Who knows what will come of it?
In addition to the branch off the Broad St subway, various ideas have come forth with an extension of the Frankford El up Bustleton Ave and then onto Roosevelt Blvd to some point, usually Roosevelt Mall. The last one I saw back in the late 80's was the most interesting, since it went like this:
Leave current Broad St subway at Fern Rock.
Backtrack down old Reading RR commuter main line to Fishers Jct, where NY Short Line/Fox Chase Line branch off. Follow NY Short Line into NE Phila to one of a few terminals - Rhawn St (where NE Freeway subway was to have ended - the land for the yards is still City-owned, and the old BSS cars had "Rhawn" signs in their destination boxes!), Fox Chase, Bustleton/Red Lion vicinity, Woodhaven Rd, even Bucks County.
Someone once told me it looked like a sideways question mark.
Ah, the old Pressed Steel cars. Bob, again, how many exist in the
Fern Rock yard? It looked like 3 a couple of months ago on my
Sunday loop around, but it was hard to tell. And that "Heavyweights
Under Broad Street" video of mine is pretty much worn down! :)
-Lee
1 (North Broad, '28) and 166 (South Broad, '38) are part of the alleged "museum" train, along with one of the Bridge Line cars (I want to say 1016, but I'm not sure). Someone told me that 170 and a couple of South Broad cars are still there. I thought both 150 and 151 were kept also (150 would be the last North Broad, 151 the first South Broad).
Do the train colors have any meaning? I know the bridge trains were
silver, but I recall seeing some black/yellow cars as well.
Also, what was the reason for 4 motors on the bridge trains? The
steep bridge incline?
So many questions, sheesh, maybe I'll get to answer someone someday
in here! :)
The train colors don't really mean anything. For years, Broad St cars were a grimy maroon/dark red. After the SEPTA takeover, the color changed to a dark blue body with orange doors. About the time of the Pattison extension ('73), some cars appeared with a white treatment with orange and blue stripes below the windows (big mistake for cars in a grimy tunnel with composite brake shoes!). A handful of cars got a pastel treatment around the Bicentennial. The final scheme was a return to red, the same red that the Redbirds wear today (this is allegedly where David Gunn got the idea for NYC cars).
Bridge Line cars were always blue with silver doors. The blue was similar to that used after the SEPTA takeover. Many of the Bridge cars carried the silver-door scheme for quite a while in their Broad St service. A handful got orange doors.
As to yellow/black, I'm not sure about that one. SEPTA's standard color for maintenance cars is international orange.
Bridge Line cars had 4 motors mainly because of the steep upgrade on the Ben Franklin Bridge. It doesn't seem very steep when driving or riding the Speed Line, but all you need to do is walk or bike it once to appreciate the grade (about 5%). Although I never had the opportunity to ride the Bridge Line, I've been told the cars struggled on the grade in their later years despite the 4 motors. I can attest to their performance on the express portion of the Broad St line, where I experienced several swift rides in these cars.
A question on LIRR door control. On the MUs there is a button labeled
"Pass. Release". What is this button used for?
Also there is a orange light on top on the panel. Anyone know
what this is for?
The Pass Release Button was for a feature incorporated on the M-1s, that was eliminated years ago and never incorporated on the M-3s. The Pass Release feature was designed for operating primarily in inclement weather worked like this. When the train stopped (during a snow storm for example) the conductor would hit the Pass Release Button. At that point, passengers on the inside or outside of the train could push a button, adjacent the door and it would open. Only doors that had to open, would open. The conductor would then close all doors normally and the train would proceed. All of the buttons have been removed but you can see the 'blanking plates' inside and out on the M-1s. This system is used in Buffalo on the outside portion of the line.
This system is used extensively in London & Paris. Not all of the trains have it (the 1973 trains on the Piccadilly line don't, for instance) but it works basically as Steve described. The conductor "enables" the doors to open, the passengers "cause" them to open, either with button or a latch (like on the older trains on Paris' Ligne 1). Then the conductor disables the release and closes them all.
-Dave
Yet on that inside control pannel, what does the one orange light mean next to the two red ones? Also why at times is one red light on, not two?
At the end of each M1 car, there is a pannel with buttons and lights. Is that the Pass Release feature that was talked about? Is that why there is a key hole? Also, what does the single amber light mean there? I think the two red lights are for the doors. Yet why are they both on a times, then only one of two red lights is on at other times?
In the NY Post Friday March 5, page 6, is an article about the federal govt has launched a probe into reports of cracks in a key component of city subway cars.
The Federal Transit Administration has asked the MTA for an accounting of why cracks are turning up in the undercarriages of subway cars - first reported in the NY Post in February.
After the good people of Subtalk read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Seems like Friday is "Subway Day" for the papers.
Notice the article doesn't mention the possibility that the roadbed is the cause? (I can't find the story in the online edition.) What we probably have here is nobody at the paper following up and asking questions to find what could be causing the cracks.
One of the things about these "studies" is the lack of a "control group." TAers have indicated that cracks are the result of wear and tear, and must be found and replaced routinely. The only way to know if that is true is if the trucks at a second and perhaps third transit agency were checked at the same time, to see the differences. Perhaps Clinton just wants to embarass Pataki.
Its like the investigation of whether the NYC Board of Ed is inflating enrollment to get more state money. It wouldn't be surprising if every school district in the state (if not the U.S.) was inflating enrollment to get more money, but only NYC is being investigated. Just Pataki trying to screw the city and Giuliani again.
It seems from looking at this very vague article that this si not a severe problem. If it was, all of our motormen would be making bundles in overtime as every train (whether it be in a specific car class or the whole fleet) would be brought into the barn to be inspected like they did with the R46s for a spell back in the 70s. If I recall correctly this was shortly after arrival.
If the new story was printed about the cracks the FTA needs to respond to see if the problem is being taken care of. Even if they know it is they are in a position where they must appear to be concerned.
From the last set of posts it seem that TA mainenance has this problem under control and they are finding an repairing them in routine inspections. On the other hand perhaps they will find that the trucks need to be replaced and the TA can get some extra funding for a mini rehab. Nice way to exend the life of the equipment and capitalize some maint exp.
I've been reading this thread and can understand a lot of the more or less technical discussion, but what are "Bighs" in the header? I thought I was familiar with a lot of the jargon but this seems to be a new one. And I probably have more dictionaries at hand than some libraries, but it's not in any of them. Can someone explain?
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY Potsdam
Based on the context and the recent threads on grammar I think it's supposed to be "bigs".
-Dave
Ed Alfonsin, i accidently spelled bigs, bighs, while putting this in subtalk, but we are not here to worry about spelling are we?
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd
I'm not worried that much about spelling (it used to be a mark of education to be able to spell a word in a different fashion every time one used it--we got stuck with standard spelling because printers weren't educated and got fed up with the educated people), but when something is used that I can't figure out and can't find in a dictionary or a jargon list, I think that's a legitimate concern.
A question I have when people disregard standard spelling is why, in today's insistence on accuracy in measurements and identification codes, the same accuracy doesn't apply to words. (I'm not talking about the occasional typo or someone's habit of using an non-standard spelling for a place name--like "Jamacia" for "Jamaica.")
More important, I just hope that people's abilities to read instruction manuals, gauges, station signs, computer screens, and lots of other things are better than their use of standard spellings, especially people who operate or maintain or design things like subway trains.
Off my soap box.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Something like 'bighs' is a "Fat Finger Mistake" I think I'll trademark that, and start selling bigger keyboards under that brand name. Every time I've replaced my keyboard (3 times already) the new is most definatly smaller than the old.
-Hank
I don't worry too much about this because when one considers the # of cracked trucks over the 3 year period, coupled to the # of cars and trips made daily by NYCT, I think this is just part of the regular wear & tear process. Shop forces can keep the problem in check as the cars come in for their regular inspections. I just feel that the large mileage/area of concrete roadbed contributes to the problems.
There must be many contributing factors as to why trucks are cracking. Concrete roadbed may be one of them. However, a large portion of that same roadbed is also traveled by many different contracts of subway cars but not all suffer cracks in th same proportions. Age is also not a significant factor since the trucks on the oldest cars are not cracking with the same frequency. What seems to be a significant factor is that the trucks that crack with the most frequency are the trucks under the heaviest cars. Again, lets put this entire problem in perspective. There are roughly 5,800 revenue cars in service. That's roughly 11,600 trucks. There have been 73 cracked trucks found in the last 3 years or roughly 24 per year. That's a failure rate of 0.2% annually. When you look at the cracked trucks in that context, the problem is not as damning as it seems.
So, can you then provide a class/R group breakdown(no pun intended) with cross reference for normal assignment such that other varianles can be considered? Thanks in advance.
I have not yet read the article but I can easily understand the need for the gov't to ask for some information, however. Afterall, the federal gov't has a large investment in the NYC Subways and with the subways being such a vital part of the city's very existance, their concern is understandable. Having said that, I want to re-emphasize something that I mentioned previously the last time this thread was runing.
Cracked trucks on subway car frames, automobile frames or air frames are maintenance issues as long as they are being found on inspection and being addressed in a timely manner. This is not to say that the cause should not be determined - because, clearly, we need to know why. However, cracked trucks on NYC Subway cars have not resulted in a single delay to service, much less a major disruption due to a catastrophic failure. It was maintenance that found every single cracked truck that has been found in more than the past 10 years. We will continue to find them in a timely manner until the engineers catch up.
Does the TA keep track of the mileage every truck puts on? The truck cracking "problem" may be simply a result of high milage on the truck. In effect, thrucks might just have to be 'retired', or rebuilt, after a certain number of miles. Such a concept is not new - it is done in the aviation field, where components are replaced due to age or #cycles they've been through. It is be normal to see cracking on a high mileage truck anyway. They wear out too...
Didn't the IND lines have ties-in-concrete trackbeds right from the beginning? Was there any sort of truck problem with the R-1/9s? As I understand, they had arch-bar trucks and not the cast variety.
Hi,
Not sure if this topic has been covered, but every now and then you get a conductor on a train who is quite animated and entertaining.
For instance, in the early 1980's there was a conductor on the West End who routinely would give the weather report and temperature as you rode into work.
Then there was the Alphabet conductor, who would say, "West 4th Street, change here for the A as in Apple, F as in Frank, D as in Dog, etc."
SO please share your funny or obnoxious conductor stories over the years,
I'm sure this will make for a lighthearted post thread if it hasn't already been done.
Thanks
After years of riding the NYC trains, I finally ventured out to Buffalo, to try their new system (one 6 mile line, avg. of 2 car trains). Things were going well. The train was brand new and it was pretty fast. I was sitting comfortably with my feet on the seat in front of me, in a nice relaxing position. There were only a few other people in the car. We got to a station and the conductor said to stand clear and the doors closed but the train didn't move. It stood for about 10 seconds. And then the conductor said "Sir! Please remove your feet from the seat!" I looked around, and then realized he was talking about me. I quickly removed my feet and the conductor said "thank you." and the train moved on. Then I noticed the surveillance camera at the top of the car. Since it's only a 2 car train the conductor can keep an eye on the goings on of all the passengers!
My favorite was the deep-voiced conductor on an A train I took once from 59th St. He announced, "Good afternoon, passengers. You just boarded a downtown A to Lefferts Blvd. 42nd St. will be the next stop. No smoking on the train, no smoking on the train."
Heard on an some years ago:
"Step in please and watch the clozin' dawz.
Watch the clozin' dawz please.
Watch the dawz in the rear!
Move away from the dawz this is not a taxi!"
Love that Brooklyn accent!
The conductor that was on the 7thAv/B'way Local was pretty good.He retired from the TA about 5 years ago.I 4get his name.Any1 knows?
Yes his name was Harry Nugent. His job No. was 207. He picked the same run all the Time.
I see the guy before while i used to take a #1 to school or after school. That was in the late 80s. I have a question to you David Foster. Does you work diffirent lines every week?
At the time Harry was a Conductor I had a 11:00 To 7:00PM. I would ride his train after doing overtime on the Grand Central Shuttle. I worked Dffrent lines. I worked lots of Lines then. I worked the Shuttle from 7:00AM to 9:00. then toke harry's train then Like I said in the beginning Worked the No.1 3 Days a week. The Shuttle was 2 days. Then run the No. 2 line on weekends. Now I don't work much overtime. I have 5 days all on the No.1 Line. I hope to return back to the No.6 line in acouple of mouths. Then for the 1st time in my 10 career work the BMT or IND. Maybe the the A line weekdays and the C Line saturdays. But I don't know that would be a big step for me. I always rode the IRT and always worked on the IRT.
Wow you work hard everyday and i like IRT too. Well i got a applicant for conductor and hope i will pass the test.
Me too; anyone know of any 'prep classes'?
-Hank
The test is easy to pass if it is like the one in the late 80's. The problem is the number of people who pass it >G<. And they might use a lottery system just for you to take the test since they are expecting so many people to apply.
Try it out in the B division.It's pretty good over here.Don't believe what everyone in the A division says about the supervision in the B division.
I know they're not conductors, but some of the operators on SEPTA's subway surface lines are real "hams" when it comes to the use of the PA. When the K cars first arrived over 15 years ago, I was a regular daily user of Route 36. Many operators loved to give wake-up calls, good mornings, weather reports, late scores you wouldn't find in the morning Inquirer, etc. Some even made tapes which they used for calling out stops. My favorite was one such operator whose tape included the following information for 67th St, the location of Bartram High School: "67th St. Transfer for Red Arrow bus route J to 69th St Terminal. This stop for Bartram High. Students, please do not light your cigarettes until you have left the car."
The conductors on the Broad St subway by comparison are real stiffs. You can hardly hear or understand most of them.
Aww, but can you blame the poor BSS opto guys? I mean, they have to
trek all the way across that cabin to open the doors. Usually that
in and of itself seems to tire them out. :)
The A line??
R44's?? Well I guess that could be better the coffins the redbirds have room wise
Maybe operate a R 32 or R 38. I wounder how a R 46 would be. Its would be very difrent if I go to B Division but i'll enjoy operating the Redbird this pick before they leave us.
Cool,Thanks.I think he retired in 1993,right?
I have a question/comment from the motormans standpoint. With all those announcements, did that causer his train to be constantly late. Did senior motormen pick with him? If I had to listen to his spiel all day evey trip, I think I would go nuts after a while! LOL
The train was maybe 3 Mins late but most of the Annoutsment were between stations. Also I loved his annoutsment its too bad I was not his T/O. I did come close but the person ahead of me picked it. Did the other T/O like it. No, they did not. He never keeped the same T/O. Back then I was fairly new so he had lots of Low Senarty T/O.
But he was entertaining even Thow Transit toke him out of service over it.
On March 15 I will be picking up my application for the Conductor's Test. If I am among the lucky ones chosen, I will make sure that my announcements are consistent (I DO have a moderately loud speaking voice), clear and correct.
(My sample mid-day announcement on the Fulton Express)
"This is Broadway-East New York, doors will open on the right side. Change here for the J and L trains on the upper level, and the C local across the platform. Watch your steps getting off."
"This is the A train, 8th Avenue Express to 207th Street in Manhattan. Please stand clear of the closing doors."
(ding dong!)
"The next stop will be Utica Avenue."
Wayne
Better Hurry up Wayne, I just send my out allready and good luck. I been waiting for this for long time.
Wayne,did you or do you live in the DC area?The operators on the DC METRO tells you what side the doors will open on.I never in my time living in NYC heard a conductor say"DOORS OPENING ON THE LEFT/RIGHT.Unfortunately,I live in in Ohio,& can't pick up an application for conductor.My dream was to be a conductor since I was a little boy.But I long gave that up after I moved to Columbus,Ohio 4 years ago.Wish u the best on the test.
My Grandmother lived on 9th Street NE (near Constitution NE) from 1948 until her death in January of 1995. I spent many vacations at her home. In November of 1978, my Grandfather passed away at the age of 82, and during our visit there, I got my first ride on the Metro - from Eastern Market to National Airport. The next day, we went from Potomac Avenue to New Carrollton, back to Metro Center, and then up and down the Red Line - first to Silver Spring, then back to Metro Center. We covered the entire small system in about three hours.
As for my addendum regarding on which side the doors open - I like this touch, I DID pick it up from the DC Metro. I figure if some
conductors can give out weather forecasts, the least I could do is
to announce the side on which the doors open. I believe the DC attendants do this as an aid for visually-impaired people, but don't quote me on that. Anyway, I have gotten used to doing this during my announcement rehearsals, so it is second nature to me.
My next trip to DC will be the week of Sept 19-25 1999, to see the new Green line connection and to finish taking my pictures.
Wayne
I can see where such an announcement would be helpful on local trains or on two-track lines, since there is no consistency as to which side the doors will open. On express trains at express stops, where all four tracks are at the same level, the doors will open to the right 99% of the time. The only exceptions I can think of are 34th St.-Penn Station on the 7th Ave. and 8th Ave. lines, and Atlantic Ave. on the IRT. Frankly, I wouldn't have any objection if I were to hear such an announcement on an express train, especially if it was a slant R-40 train. Of course, I'd have a pretty good idea as to who was making that announcement, huh, Wayne?
Good luck Wayne. I'm sure you'll make a great conductor and maybe we'll work together some day. To survive your employment, and this is for every other prospective conductor as well, two things: It takes a long time for the first person to be called from the list due to placement rankings and test certifications. It took me 3 years to be called from the time I took the test and I only got 1 question wrong! Secondly, remember seniority is the name of the game. Be ready to have midweek days off and strange and different working hours each day. Say good bye to your social life for a while and hope your days off coincide with a few holidays. I've had to work several Christmas' & Thanksgivings for example. I'm not trying to discourage anybody, I'm just telling it like it is!
That would indeed be a pleasure, Bill. I don't mind shuffling holidays- I had to do it last year due to some turmoil here at home - I wound up celebrating Christmas on December 27. Anyway, I'll see how it goes. First put in the application, then get all my connections and door opening sides rehearsed. Is there a book I must study before taking the test?
Wayne
You may try the ARCO Civil Service Books availiable at most good book stores. When I took the test, it was a combined conductor/bus operator. Now they are seperate tests. Then, it was basically questions about driving, nothing to do with trains. From what I heard, now the conductor test asks basic knowledge and facts and locations about famous places in NYC. To all: file early. Ties are broken by seeing who filed the earliest!
Do file early if you intend to take the conductor's test. Filing will be open until 3/26/99. From what I understand, your filing fee ($10 I think) will buy you a shot at a lottery. From all the applicants who file, just 15,000 will be chosen to take the test. From that point on, filing time and veterans credit can mean the difference of one year in when you are called.
Many threads regarding this topic and Conductors in general of late, so can anyone tell me:
1) How long the training period is?
2) What training is given?
3) Can you apply direct or must you be NYCTA staff and apply as promotion??
>
Just curious really !,with all lines in London (except the Northern Line) now one person operated the position of conductor or guard as we say here deserves to come under the spotlight now we've all stopped Movie talk!!
Regards
Rob
London UK
:^)
The position of conductor is considered an Entry Level job and therefore is referred to as "Open/Competative', meaning that anyone may apply. However, it is also open to some NYCT employees such as cleaners, RR Clerks & helpers.
To clarify-- there are two exams being given: The open competitive to people outside of Transit which would be the exam Wayne would take and the promotional exam which I will take.
The advantage of being "promotion exam" is that all eligibles have to be used before they can use the open competitve list.
Rob,
I can provide a detailed look at the length and scope of training, since I still have my school car schedule from my training back in Nov. of 1997. Here it goes:
A Div & B Div training is different in length due to different rolling stock.
My training was as a Conductor in the A Div(IRT) and may differ from present day school car training.
Day one: 0800 hrs P.S. 248 Brooklyn. Induction, Processing, Orientation,and presentation from union. This is the day we found out which Div. we will be assigned and our introduction to the senority system.
Day two: 0800 hrs P.S. 248. Dupont, Eyes & Ears (Safety Training)
Day #3: 0800 hrs P.S. 248. Uniforms
Day #4: 0800 hrs P.S. 248. FTA training(sorry, I can't recall what FTA was) also Customer service, baby stroller, ADA,(dealing with disabled) platform mirors & CCTV.
Day #5: 0800 hrs E.180 st classroom, Bronx. Policies, Rules, Conductors duties, Quiz.
Day #6: 0800 hrs E.180 st classroom, Bronx. Work programs, Timetables, Lost property.
Day #7: 0800 hrs E.180 st Classroom, Bronx. Signal System, Radio Communications.
Day #8: 0800 hrs E. 180 st. Classroom & Yard, Bronx. Car equipment: familiarization R26-R36, Signal Quiz.
Day #9: 0800 hrs 239st Yard, Bronx. Car equipment: R26-R36 Door operations, Trouble shooting, Changing operating position.
Day #10: 0800 hrs Corona Yard, Queens. Car equipment: R26-R36 Preparing a train for service, Trouble shooting, Door operations.
Day #11: 0800 hrs Westchester Yard, Bronx. Car equipment R26-R36 review previous car equip. lessons and Hooking a signal, Hand switching, Structure walk(Yikes).
Day #12: 0800 hrs Mosholu Yard, Bronx. Car equipment: R62, R62A Door operations, Prepare train for service, Changing operating postion.
Day #13: 0800 hrs Westchester Yard, Bronx. Flagging, Third rail jumper operations, Other than head end operations.
Day #14: 0800 hrs E.180st classroom & Transit Museum. Panic control and Emergency exit operations.
Day #15: 0800 hrs E.180st classroom. Mid course review, Emergency exit operations and Mid course exam.
Day #16: 0800 hrs 370 Jay st Control Center. Customer communications. This were they teach us about PA announcements.
Day #17: 0800 hrs 241st White Plains Rd Terminal. Road simulation. This is were we use a temporarily modified train to practice door operations on the road.
Day #18 tru #24 Road Posting. This is were we work with a seasoned Conductor on his job inorder to be come familiar with the lines in the Div., as well as practice our door operation while under the supervision of the Conductor.
Day #25 Final Exam
Day #26 Practical Exam's
Day #27 Practical Exam's
Day #28 Congradulations!!! you are now fully road qualified and must now call the crew office for your first assigment.
I wish to add: Also be prepared to go from one end of the city to the other. You will be extra and as such you can and will be sent anywhere within the A or B Division. At present I am a Station Agent (Extra List) and work different stations each night. Since working for Transit I have been as far Noth as Dyre and as far SOuth as Hopwards Beach JFK and most of the stations on the Brooklyn B,N,Q,R lines including Stillwell.
Also from talking to several conductors: Be prepared to sit around at a terminal waiting for a run. You'll work 8 hoursd once you get a run.
I took look forward to taking the test and the expected result that I passed and will trade a Station Service booth for a Train cab.
to the open competitive candidates: Start looking for your birth certificates now. If you are foreign born and do not have one get a current passport--NOW!
Here is the process for Station Agent: It was October 1996 when I took the test.( I celebrated my birthday by taking the test which happened to be given on my birthday!) Summer 1997 arrives and I am called for an interview. Late fall 1997 it was to go in for a drug test(cost $15--money order only) and for a 31 page questionnaire about previous jopbs since High School-get the resume out==you'll need it!
It is now January 1998-I am called for final physical and swearing in-the documentation--passport, was a hang=up so I had to go to Philly to get a new passport-paid a rush fee and Overnight express mail--total $115.00. When the passport arrived it was back to 1251 Broadway and was accepted. I was instructed to report to a room at the North end of the West Fourth Station on the mezzanine between the two track levels for more paperwork on the Friday before class. That was 3/5/1998!
And I thought you would pick a route which had slant R-40s...
I like the Fulton Express because it is an express run and has some rather attractive (IMHO) stations along it. It is probably my favorite IND line. As for Slants, of course I would be happy to conduct along the Q or the L lines (although the Slants will probably be gone from the latter by that time).
Kings Highway doors open on the right side, change here for the D local across the platform and the B-2 Bus to Kings Plaza...
Wayne
I once heard this on a Flushing bound #7 I boarded at 5th Avenue:
"Local train to Flushing. This is a local train, a local train, you are on the local train. This is not the express. If you want the express, you are on the wrong train. This is the local train. Local train to Flushing. Local Train, local Train. Next stop: Grand Central"
And I'm sure there were people, who despite all those announcements, STILL asked him if the train was a local or express. People don't listen, they want to be told personally & individually.
It's similar to an FAQ at Christmas Eve: people call their church rectory to ask, "What time does Midnight Mass start?" DUH!!
I just remembered a Conductor story. This Conductor didn't really say anything specal but did something probably lots of Employees wanted to do but wouldn't do. It was PM Rush Hour about 6:00 PM. Like always there where people holding the doors in the front of the train at 66 St-Bway. So the conductor walks off the train and sit on the bench and starts reading a Newspaper. He sits there for 5 Mins then goes back on the train and Sez over the PA. "Are you all ready now I get payed to sit and wait". When all us know you can't get away with that. So he was given 5 days with out pay. Then 2 YRS later retired.
Also I was checking a libery on old transit News Articals and I found one from the NY Newsday. A Conductor on the 9:02AM out of Van Courtlandt pulled the cord after spoting a person jump between the cars. Thats Normal but the rest if unbelivible. He runs after the guy. They jumped from between the cars and on to the Platform and chase him onto the street at W 116 St-Bway. Police detained the Conductor name Guezman. He has been fired but not for that. He struck a New York City Transit Bus Operator for passing his bus stop. Before that he was almost fire for hiting a school kid who pull the cord.
What a record. Talk about 3 strikes. Some only get 1 chance.
Sounds as if this dude was a ticking time bomb who could detonate at any time.
I went to Aviation High in the 80's. There was a time ehen I was going home after school one day when I was on the 7 train at Rawson St. As anyone knows people holding the doors open for thier friends or anyone else can be a problem. On this particular day some kids were holding the doors open. So the conductor made this announcement, "I,m waiting for the person who is holding the doors open to close them". A minute passed by, nothing happened. Then the conductor says, "I'm still waiting....Can't close them?" Then finally the dooras close and the person who held the doors open must of felt embarassed.
No, it doesn't happen that way. He who holds doors open feels like a nice guy/ hero for allowing his friends to board THAT train. He also is the first guy to complain about a late train or one which goes out of service for door problems.
Looking through the track maps, the one of the Queens Plaza/ Queensbridge area shows that 21 St/Queensbridge(B/Q or S) as an island platform when it is two side platforms.
Also, how deep is the 63rd St.tunnel from north of 57th/7th to 63rd/Lexington? The ceiling seemed pretty high to me(and a little freaky with those purple tunnel lights).
While I do not have an answer to either of these questions I do have a note about the Lexington Av station on the 63rd Street extension.....
The wall of the station is actually a false wall. The platform extends behind this wall (on both upper and lower levels of the station) to the track that was used (until more track work was ordered) for layups. Over night there were 3 N trains and 1 R train laid up behind these walls, 2 upstairs, 2 down.
The reason for the platform is that these tracks curve north, east of the station to link up with the 2nd Av subway.
Purple or Blue Lights?
They denote saftey equipment or a power cut off switch at the location of the light.
The line from 57th to Lex in on a down slant to clear Metro North and the low-level express tracks of the IRT.
i remember during the construction, the deep cut at 7th Ave in Central Park and the cofferdam that carried the 6th Ave line through the lake.
Has the MTA ever tossed around the idea of adding surveillance cameras to the trains or stations?
[Has the MTA ever tossed around the idea of adding surveillance cameras to the trains or stations?]
I for one find it difficult to imagine why the TA has such resistance to installing security cameras. It's not like the things are an untested technology; you'll find them seemingly everywhere today. And subway platforms are well-suited to camera surveillance by virtue of their physical layout. But no, the TA usually isn't interested.
There are cameras in many stations already. For instance the Canal Street Station underpass/transfer from the N/R Broadway and the Bridge Line portion of the station. I'm sure there are plenty of others.
You are correct that there are cameras in some places, but nowhere near as many as could be used. I really don't see why every platform and passageway couldn't be covered by cameras. The cost of even a couple of thousand cameras and the required connections probably would be less than that of a few new cars, and monitoring costs would be a small component of the subway's overall operating budget.
To put things in terms that the TA's bean counters would understand, the cost of full camera coverage and monitoring probably would be less than a few crime victims' jury awards.
I wonder if the cameras are monitored by someone or if they are taping if a crime is committed?
I have worked stations with cameras. They are connected to apush button where a customer can talk to the booth. We then lock our TV monitor to that camera. The monitors are outisde the Station Service Booth and we are supposed to keep an eye on them. If we see a crime or emergency then we are to activate our alarm and request police or EMS assistance.
Now opinion- There is more to cameras then the cameras. There are the monitor screens, camera alarms (If someone steals a camera an alarm will go off in the booth), video switcher which will rotate between the variousd cameras and allow manual control to select a camera. There is also maintenance of cameras and monitors. I have worked stations where the screen was so dark they were useless-I called the field office and no repairs were made. I have also seen monitors, not in stations I worked, that have the TV screen covered weith stickers that appear to have been there "forever".
***disclaimer-while some info is based on official info, this post is personal opinion and not that of MTA or NYCT***
[I have worked stations with cameras. They are connected to apush button where a customer can talk to the booth. We then lock our TV monitor to that camera. The monitors are outisde the Station Service Booth and we are supposed to keep an eye on them. If we see a crime or emergency then we are to activate our alarm and request police or EMS assistance.]
Having station agents monitor the cameras is hardly the best idea - they already have enough to do and can't reasonably be expected to watch the cameras as closely as they should be watched. Some sort of off-site monitoring service would make a lot more sense.
They are installing, or have already installed, video cameras on trains on the Broad Street Subway here in Philly. There are four or five cameras in each car. There's no way they could ever monitor all those cameras effectively, but at the very least they're a good deterrent to late-night crime on trains.
The MTA in Baltimore has installed hidden (we know where they are, but the public doesn't) cameras on all buses, LRV's (2 per articulated unit) and subway cars (2 per car). Since the program was announced in late 1997, violent crime on transit has dropped dramatically.
Actually, I just saw cameras on a Market-Frankford Line car for the first time. Apparently, SEPTA is in the process of adding surveilance cameras to all its rolling stock.
Does anyone know ho the system works? Does the operator see video from those cameras on the platform monitor when the train is not in a station, or is there another new monitor in the cab? ...or does it just record to a tape?
Sorry, my W key gets stuck... so:
Does anyone know how the system works? ...
I don't know about the El, but there are several on buses and trolleys. They have a tape on continuous loop which can store about 3-4 hours worth of info.
I had asked about the thick wires between the running rails at the
El stops, and apparently they're antennas for the platform cameras.
(Allows OPTO from the operator's cab.) Don't know where else they use
the signal.
-Lee
There aren't any on the cars, but certainly on the platfroms( for the CCTV they use when pulling into a station).
[ There aren't any on the cars... ]
No, you're wrong - they are not on all the cars, at least not yet, but as I said, I have seen them installed on cars on both the BSS and MFL. I would not have said I saw them if it wasn't true. Please don't call me a liar.
It may be a test or pilot program, or maybe they are, in fact, installing them on all cars, but I have seen them - I first saw them a week ago on the BSS, then Saturday on the MFL.
They are installed in special housings mounted on the ceiling. There are five on a BSS car, mounted facing opposite directions down the center of the car. Then there are four on a MFL car, mounted near the doors near the ends, mounted off-center, facing opposite directions.
Oh, no, no, no!
I wasn't calling you a liar, I was just saying it because I haven't seen them( I guess I haven't been paying attention).
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Sorry, it's just as much my fault - I over-reacted.
Anyway, if anyone has info about how the system works, I'm very curious about it.
Can anyone refresh my memory on where I can purchase model NYCT subway cars. I got my information right here on Subtalk the first time for a store in Manhattan that sells them. It's been my life long dream to have a model HO-Scale of subway cars.
-GarfieldA
You're probably thinking of The Red Caboose on 45th St. They have ads every month in Model Railroader.
Red Caboose is the best store in New York City and I buy stuff there. They have almost all the Ho-Scale for NYC Subway Cars also N scale too. I can't remember the guy name that own Red Caboose. Well people go to Red Caboose and it at w45st between 5th and 6th ave.
Speaking of model subway cars, does anyone know if there are any
model railroad el structures, preferably in HO scale? About 2 years
ago, I heard or read somewhere that an el structure modelled after the
3rd Ave. El was in production, but I don't recall what scale(s) it
was to be made to. Can anyone confirm this? I do have 2 HO scale
Redbirds that I purchased at the Red Caboose 2 years ago, and I
currently have them displayed on a section of track. I would love to
display them on a model el structure, complete with station house and
platforms, if they are, or will be available.
Sorry, but no there is nothing available commercially at present, although there are a few rumblings among the "cottege industry" suppliers about bringing an HO scale elevated structure to market. If this ever was made available, I'd imagine it would be rather expensive. Why not build a model el yourself? Check out the "Modeling the New York Subway" web site at www.monmouth.com/~patv for a look at my scratchbuilt HO scale el. Believe it or not, it was made from basswood and cardstock glued together with white glue! You could also "kitbash" (combine parts from different un-related kits) to build your model el. Mr. Villani's web site contains a list of references for the modeler that I supplied that will allow you to get started. GOOD LUCK!
Back in the 80's I purchased a closeout lot of HO AHM old-time passenger cars, that look similar to El Gate cars. I was considering using spud units to power the cars. Although I had not planned to use steam, a good kitbasher could fabricate inexpensive Forney type locomotives from 040 chassis. I assume that you want to model something other than a 2 foot diorama.
I had plans to build an elevated structure from the Plastistruct shapes available at the time. I still have a roll of double/xover tie stip that was to be used for the two track section. I was going to use code 100 flex track and snap track and switches for the railway. I was not sure what I was going to do to model a non-operating 3rd rail. A lower code rail was my best bet at the time. Although, I had not tackled the clearance question.
The fabrication was a monumental task and I was always searching for quicker and cheaper alternatives for the structure. Has anyone found any good inexpensive (HO) elevated structure material to date? Modeling a concrete structure like the Rockaway structure is fairly easy and inexpensive to do. However, when you want to model the older steel plate girder or latice work structures, you really have a task ahead of you, not to mention rivet detail and a decent looking and functional upright column. I never really solved the problem of curves. I am sure that the actual el builders were not too comfortable with constructing the curves on the original structures.
I have pictures of the Contes slip curve that show numerouss replaced or replacement rails for the curve. There are probably a few curves on the current elevated structures that give the maintence people ulcers.
So, maybe if still you want pursue this quest, I believe that the old-time passenger cars are available from Bachman. Structure components are still up in the air.
Good luck.
IT'S STILL THERE! Oh, thank heavens! That is the store in the basement, no? At least a dozen of my HO buildings as well as my trusty old power pack (dating from 1968) were bought there. I have to go back there one day..
Wayne
Yep the the store in the basement. They been there for a while because they used to be right a cross the street on the 4 floor and they bought the place to move to basement.
I went to Red Caboose on 3/8 and i saw a n scale R62 with three subway cars cost $140 and R21 cost $299 with three subway cars but the problem is you have to put it together. I wish to buy R62 subway cars and put it on my layout. I don't know if they have power on R62 or R21. Also i saw the book with "Tracks of the New York City Subway with second edition" but it almost same with the first edition and it doesn't have yards map. I want to know what going on here and in second edition post to have subway yards map. no color on second edition.
Check out http://www.eastpenn.org - East Penn Traction Club's website. They have listings of many manufacturers, including MTS imports and others, who carry subway and traction materials from N to O scales (and probably beyond).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does any know of a web site that has historical information about the Kansas City Elevated rapid transit line.
Cyril - One source on this line I think I remember seeing, is in Robert Reed's book, "The New York Elevated". In a final chapter he summarizes other elevated lines. If I'm remembering it correctly the Kansas City elevated was actually just an elevated viaduct that ran for about a mile or so; there may have been one station stop on it. There is one small photo of a trolley on the structure that accompanys the text - nothing spectacular. He may have written that its design was based on elevated structures either in New York or Chicago. Anyone else that can add anything - it would be appreciated. Searching on Yahoo using: kansas city trolley history - came up with Kansass City Public Library special collection-maps. (www.kcp.org./sc/maps/maps.htm) - including trolley maps. Try going to this website or the keyword search on above or kansas city historical society
Thanks, that is the only thing I have on it also.
I found a post card with viaduct on it, however, I was not sure if the viaduct and the elevated structure were the same system. I thought the elevated system may have had a line to the stockyards, similar to the Chicago 'L'.
Just transferred from 6 to E/F. NEITHER ESCALATOR BETWEEN 6 AND E/F PLATFORM WAS RUNNING! My first clue to this was several people at the top landing who appeared ready to have heart attacks. I usually walk down the stairs anyway, but this was extremely difficult because the already too-narrow stairway was jammed with people walking up because the escalator was jammed with people walking up. There was a horrible bottleneck at the platform level where trains were discharging on both tracks at once.
This is the- what, fifth, sixth busiest station in the system? Doesn't it make sense for the TA to make sure the escalator is running at three o'clock on a Friday afternoon? I'm just glad I don't have to go that way at FIVE.
Both escalators for the Third Avenue exit were running just fine up and down, thank you.
At least this is better than one recent Sunday when both escalators at the 7 platform at Grand Central were coming DOWN!
You have to understand, from the Transit Authority's perspective escalators are an exotic technology that cannot be managed well.
Just imagine having that sort of "escalator follies" at a shopping mall ...
(Shopping malls don't have escalator problems). By law, the TA must take all comers, and buy from low bidders. The Mall can buy from responsible businesses, with a the carrot and stick of more/less business in the future, and toss out vandals.
Everyone seems to be presuming that the escalators were broken. That is not necessarily the case. By law, every escalator in New York City must have a stop button at each landing. Vandals (usually "students") often hit the stop button, which shuts the escalator off until someone can come out and reset it. 3 PM, which is the approximate time of this incident according to the posting, is a time of day when thousands of schoolchildren are leaving or have just left school.
David
I might add- Station Agents or Cleaners must call a supervisor before the escaltors can be restarted. Believe it or not. there is a long involved process before the supervisor is allowed to restart the escalator (In one booth I saw the three page safety bulletin on restarting escalators.). Also, Stations has been realigned giving more stations to fewer supervisors (and that is assuming the supervisor even comes to the station to check on you.) We will call our Field Office and advise that Escalator number E-nnn (N= any number) is off. A supervisor may or may not stopy by the station/
I do sympathize with you.
There is a 10 page booklet on elevators operations! we are not allowed to restart elevators either. We must call supervision and elevator maintenance. If a customer gets stuck in an elevator we activate our alarm and notify the police. We also call elevator maintenance.
Did you see the paper Tuesday AM- they will close 181 on the IRT for repairs for four months including tile and new elevators. Now if only they'll improve lighting at 168 IRT and renoavte 191 IRT.
I can see why restarting elevators requires a call to supervision and elevator maintenance. But escalators are a different story. Station agents should be authorized to restart them, at least in certain circumstances. Requiring supervision is an excessively bureaucratic step.
We are not to leave the booth except to pull the wheels (Empty the turnstiles) or for lunch or comfort relief. To restart escalators would require leaving the booth. We are taught that an ateempt by a passenger, even a hurt passenger, might be a ruse--we open the booth door and accomplice robs the booth or hurts the station agent. We are never to leave the booth. If someone gets hurt call for help and if a cleaner is on the station we can call for the cleaner.
oh yes- if we get robbed or lose money we have to pay it back!
[We are taught that an ateempt by a passenger, even a hurt passenger, might be a ruse--we open the booth door and accomplice robs the booth or hurts the station agent. We are never to leave the booth. If someone gets hurt call for help and if a cleaner is on the station we can call for the cleaner.]
Well, I'm probably going way out on a limb here, but it's my view that this never-leave-the-booth policy is *not* always advisable. Consider someone collapsing in front of the booth. If the station agent knows CPR, he or she might be able to save the person's life - while waiting for help to arrive probably would be fatal. Yes, the "collapse" could be a ruse to lure the agent out of the booth. But you have to weigh the consequences - a couple of thousand dollars in the booth (if that much) vs. someone's life. I'd say it's a risk worth taking. Mark my words, one of these days the TA is going to get hit with a huge civil judgment because of their policy. As much as I dislike lawsuits, I can't say that that would be a bad thing.
Personally, if I were a station agent, I could never let someone die needlessly in front of me if I were able to help. To heck with the money.
Since when are station agents taught CPR?
> Since when are station agents taught CPR?
Doesn't mean they might not know it. I'm not certified but I was taught CPR in high school health class. (I'm not sure I'd actually try it without a refresher course unless there was no one else who could do it...)
I was certified. Anyhow, before opening the booth door, you're supposed to check if it's safe. Since the door locks from the outside, leave the key inside, and pull the door closed behind you in an emergency situation. Now, no one can get in, including you. I guess you need to call a supervisor then, and maybe get written up, but I'm 100% sure that no negative action would be taken against you, if it involved saving a life.
-Hank
That is not how Transit sees it. They ask one question "Did you obey the rules". If the answer is "no" you are in trouble. The focus is not customer service but "Rules". Seriously, if someone collapsed in front of the booth we'd hit our alarm and advise of the need for EMS and EMS and Police would come, do the CPR and we'd have obeyed the rules. A Station Supervisor would also respond. Even then we'd have tons of paper work, but we'd have obeyed the rules.
I had one booth Audit for being nice to a customer. The MetroCard had zero on it and customer wanted money added to *that card* I did and the card locked up the computer. I was reinstructed not to add money to a zero card but use a new card. I did state that I was giving the customer what they wanted but to no avail.
[That is not how Transit sees it. They ask one question "Did you obey the rules". If the answer is "no" you are in trouble. The focus is not customer service but "Rules". Seriously, if someone collapsed in front of the booth we'd hit our alarm and advise of the need for EMS and EMS and Police would come, do the CPR and we'd have obeyed the rules. A
Station Supervisor would also respond. Even then we'd have tons of paper work, but we'd have obeyed the rules.]
Why am I not surprised (sigh)? This obsession with "rules" is why TA management is by and large inferior to just about anything found in the private sector. Most private companies have learned that giving workers more autonomy is far better in the long run than constraining them with endless rules. Even from my outsider's viewpoint, I'd say that station agents have much better knowledge of how to deal with unexpected problems than do bureaucrats at Jay Street. But it's the "rules" that count. How absurd.
At this "private" bus company we have lots of rules too, but then we don't normally get our heads chopped off if we bend them a little in the interest of SERVING the customer.
And this pain in the ass isn't afraid to ask the TA but WHY a lot. It makes my day when this tail wags the dog !
Mr t__:^)
The TA will tell you "We make up these rules to prevent similar situations from happening in the future." Remember one word: BEAURACRACY. If something goes arry: don't say what you did, say what you are supposed to do. That will keep your nose clean!
It still could be a set up. When a booth agent goes to work, his family would like him/her to return home safely. Weighing the consequences at the booth: that could prove fatal to the booth agent. Don't forget: over the years there have been numerous push in robberies resulting in DEATH to the agent.
To compare NYCT escalators to those at a shopping mall is grossly unfair. Do the shopping mall escalators run 24/7?
au contraire, the real question is how long the tenants(merchants) would put up with failure before the landlord would fix the problem.
In a shopping mall security is on constant watch to guard against vandalism/shoplifting. No matter what anybody else tells you, in the subway, the would be vandals don't have PD looking over their collective shoulders all the time. Very seldom does a vandal get caught in the act. That is why there is so much vandalism in the subway: thier chances of getting caught in the act are slim to none.
FYI - At about 12 noon today (Sunday), only one of the escalators at the Lex end of the station was running - and it was going _down_. On my way out of the station, I passed 3 people who had stopped to rest on the way up. I was wondering, if only one escalator in the station is working, wouldn't it make more sense to have it running _up_?
Certainly. Maybe the escalator just broke down. Maybe some vandal recently pushed the stop button. I don't know. Do you? Give the TA the benefit of the doubt sometime. Did you read subway buffs' prior post about the TA procedeure for resetting an escalator? Those rules come from downtown, those out in the field do as ordered in the field.
I don't know why the escalators were not running. Did you alert a clerk of the condition? I've been working for NYCTso long a bell rings in my head if something like that happens around 3 PM on a Friday afternoon: did a bunch of rowdy school kids on their way home from school for the weekend activate the emergency stop button on those escalators? If they did, it is an NYPD problem, not transits'. Police coverage has been appaling since the TAP/NYPD merger.
Observed this afternoon on Brooklyn-bound F at East Broadway: One woman using an empty, open stroller to hold the doors open for about thirty seconds for two other women coming down stairs.
None of these women had a baby.
Nice little racket, huh?
Old racket, new twist. The twist? No baby in the stoller.
-Hank
I heard, that you guys had the same problem in the 80ies we have nower days. Our whole subway system is totally vandalized by spraypaint.We have about 330 cars in frankfurt/germany and we just can`t get them trains buffed, cause they get painted nearly every night in nearly 20 yards. How have you managed this problem?
Diligence. The policy was (and still is I guess) that any train with graffiti was immediately removed from service and cleaned. After a while they grew tired of the paint and started scratching the windows with sharp objects instead.
As Dave said. it takes perseverence and a willingness to bite the bullet. We developed a policy and strategy wherby trains were cleaned as soon as graffiti was found. By doing this, you deny the vandal the opportunity to see his work. They eventually get tired and go away.
I think the three layers of razor wire around the yards may help too. I think that CI yard looks like a prison facility... you have lots of lights, a tower and tons of razor wire.
Mike
All of the stairways at Court Street/Borough Hall Station are covered with signs which read "This Side Down" or "This Side Up" informing passengers that they need to keep to the right to avoid collisons and bottlenecks. Meanwhile the escalators leading to/from the M,N,R platform run contrary to this well posted mandate; the one on the right goes up while the one on the left goes down. Go Figure. Every morning when a train lets out at Court Street streams of passengers coming up on the left clash with passengers going down on the right.
I am not the only one who would love to grab the station manager by the collar and give him a good lecture. This person is nowhere to be found during the morning rush. Is there a number I can call???
At one time, the escalators Chris cited operated as Chris would like. However, I believe one of them (I forget which) had a problem that prevented it from working in the direction it was operating, but didn't prevent it from operating in the other direction. Rather than have both escalators operate in the same direction (or one on/one off), the escalator/elevator people switched directions on both escalators.
I believe these two machines will be up for replacement shortly.
David
Gee, my recollections of that station in the 1950s are that both escalators ran "up" and passengers going down used the stairs. I guess in those days they figured that escalators were only needed for going against gravity.
Maybe the reason why both escalators were going up was because that was the predominant flow of traffic direction. It is not uncommon for 2 escalators to go up for crowd control purposes.
apparently, they do also need to be run both ways for wear purposes. I found this out when I asked the question of a repairman at the SI Mall.
-Hank
As the SubwayBuff pointed out it is a gigantic task to get a supervisor to restart the escalators.
The Transit Authority must make safety the first priority.
Station Department has reduced the amounto f supervisors and escalator maintainers do not normally restart escalators as routine duties.
The station manager works nights. She is in charge of Court Street to 95 Street. The other field manager got a promotion.
Just wondering --
I know that the original LIRR across Jamaica Bay dates from the 1880s or so, but does anyone out there know when the elevated line between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park was built? Is it original, or did it replace an earlier ground-level line?
It a original elevated and LIRR own these line before they give it to MTA in the early 50s.
My question about that line is, was the line to Far Rockaway ever connected what is now the A line in the Rockaways. I have long presumed this was so. The area between the end of the A at Far Rock, and the beginning of the LIRR line, is occupied by a 1950s era shopping center, which was mostly vacant and in disrepair last saw.
I believe they built the Mott Avenue-Far Rockaway station after the line was transferred to NYCT. Prior to this, I believe the LIRR ramped up from its existing terminal to the elevated structure.
According to the linear map, the Rockaway El dates from the 1940s although I find this hard to believe. I would assume Aqueduct station and Woodhaven station also date from this period. Ozone Park seems older. You should see Woodhaven station- the rounded station structure is still there with trees and bushes growing round it and out of it...
Wayne
I believe that there was some kind of sweetheart deal in the works from sometime after WWII where the LIRR would upgrade the Rockaway (and Far Rockaway) line to rapid transit standards so the NYCTA could buy it and operate it. Otherwise, I think that the entire line would have been abandoned (except maybe, the branch to Far Rockaway).
I know in the early 50's one of the bridges was out and either shuttle bus service was used or the line was accessable from the Far Rockaway end only. As far as I know the LIRR never replaced the bridge and the current bridges were built by the NYCTA through some bond measure. I did not personally travel on the line at the time. However one of my friends did go out there on the train every year until the bridge (burned?) and the line was closed or otherwise inaccessable or too much trouble to get there. That all changed once the IND Fulton St Subway was connected to the improved eastern portion of the BMT Fulton Ave El, then shortly after that, the connection was made from the El to the former LIRR Rockaway line.
So, that comment about the shopping center out at the Far Rockaway Station would hold true. If that shopping center was built around 1955 +/-. Someone probably got a sweetheart deal on that real estate and made it commercially available at the time.
I have an early (pre WWI) picture of Hammels Junction at ground level.
Tthe Mott Ave and the LIRR Far rockaway via Valley Stream were joined together to form a loop. You can read about this in the book "Change At Ozone Park" by Herbert George.The book details the history of rail services to the rockaways.
I don't know of any sweetheart deals, but it had nothing to do with the NYCTA, because they didn't exist at the time. My understanding was that the line from Howard Beach to Hammels was built almost entirely upon timber trestle, and there were frequent fires. Whether this can be attributed to vandalism, or a combination of third rail sparks and lots of dry, creosted wood, is unknown to me. When the city purchased the line, (I believe through the Board of Transpotation) The replaced most of the wooden structure with earthworks, the bridge approaches with some concrete (and probably timber supports, not having been underneath, I don't know) and that is the line as we know it today. The Mott Ave station that now exists is, I believe the newest part of the line. The Rockaway Park station is vintage LIRR.
-Hank
[My understanding was that the line from Howard Beach to Hammels was built almost entirely upon timber trestle, and there were frequent fires. Whether this can be attributed to vandalism, or a combination of third rail sparks and lots of dry, creosted wood, is unknown to me.]
According to Stan Fischler's book, discarded cigarettes were the main problem.
According to Stan Fischlers book, there's a lot of errors. It's very poorly edited, and some of the stuff seems to be just too far-out.
-Hank
According to the book "Change at Ozone Park" by Herbert George, the first service to the Rockaways over Jamaica Bay was by the New York, Woodhaven and Rockaway Railroad with service commencing August 26th, 1880. This railraod was taken over (merged) with the LIRRin August 1887. The elevated structure in the Rockaways was completed under a grade crossing eleimination project in 1942.
This book is a very good source of information on the Rockaway service of the LIRR and has loads of great pictures.
[According to Stan Fischlers book, there's a lot of errors. It's very poorly edited, and some of the stuff seems to be just too far-out.]
Yes, you're right about that. As interesting as the book may be, it does have some significant flaws. I'm still glad I bought it, though.
I've got a signed copy from the offical reception at the Museum. I've also got a signed copy of 'New York Transit Memories', which, according to various sources much older than I, mis-identifies some locations.
-Hank
When I say a sweetheart deal, there are two items;
1. The LIRR (or some entity) must have spent a considerable sum to erect the current Far/Rockaway concrete elevated structures. I am guessing, but, the bond issue that covered that re/construction must have been guaranteed or backed by NYC in some manner.
2. The cross channel line had to be completely rebuilt which the LIRR was not able or willing to do. So, there would not have been any reason for the LIRR to reconstruct the Far/Rockaway line if there had not been some sort of incentive (from NYC). So basically, NYC took the Rockaway line (problem) off the shoulders of the LIRR.
Not that that was a bad deal for NYC Rapid Transit, it was obviously a good deal in those terms. There are many instances were other cities of the present would like to have had the forsight to incorporate abandoned steam RR lines into the rapid transit layout of a metropolitan area. And, in some cases, it was. But for most, rapid transit became an archaic term, and any traces of rights of way that could have been used were paved or built over.
Are there any other views of this nature, pro or con?
[1. The LIRR (or some entity) must have spent a considerable sum to erect the current Far/Rockaway concrete elevated structures. I am guessing, but, the bond issue that covered that re/construction must have been guaranteed or backed by NYC in some manner.]
If I'm not mistaken, the City of New York paid for putting the Rockaway Line on an "el" structure.
David
From my understanding the city picked up the old LIRR Rockaway Line for 8 Million Dollars(with all the restructuring and substation ,cost was 56 million.The line itself was dated back to 1890s(1892). the line was damaged in a fire in 1950.
As far as I know, the NYCTA rebuilt the Far Rockaway line with the concrete "el" structure. It is very misleading to believe otherwise since that structure is physically similar to the LIRR Babylon Line "el" structure.
BTW, if the city fathers of that time had had the foresight they would have bought the old and little-used Bay Ridge Line from the LIRR and turned it into a "Cross-Brooklyn Railway". But, alas, that was not to be...
Doug aka BMTman
(Forsight to turn into rapid transit). In hindsight, with the LIRR not a public commuter railroad, the city would be better off it it was still part of the LIRR. The division of the TBTA surplus would be less unfair for the city, since it would have more LIRR service. The Rockaways are too far for a good subway ride, commuter rail would be faster. There would be less objection from the affluent, and people along the ROW, to hooking up the train to JFK since it would already be operating. No doubt the Arverne development would have happened. The money the city saved by not running the Rockaway line could have been used to extend the underground portion of the A to a big transfer station to the LIRR near Cross Bay.
But no one could have know the future of the LIRR, and that the MTA was in the cards, when the line was aquired.
I'd imagine that the city had fairly high expectations for the Rockaways when it agreed to take over the former LIRR line. Things obviously turned out quite different. Most of the beach users switched to Jones Beach and other places, Playland dwindled and eventually closed, and most of the neighborhoods declined. Today there are only a few decent parts left in the Rockaways, mainly at the west end of the Peninsula (starting about at the Beach 116 Street subway terminal) and at the very eastern end of Far Rockaway. Almost everywhere else is in sorry shape.
According to the line history that was posted here, the line on the penninsula was rebuilt to RT standards some time before the Cross Bay section was damaged by the fire, which is the section that was rebuilt by the city. Discovering who finded it would require some research. If you missed the 'Capsule History' click it.
-Hank
To clear up your question and the subsequent postings, here's a capsule history on the IND Rockaway Line. The original LIRR line across Jamaica Bay opened in 1892 and was electrified in 1905.
1941 - LIRR line on the Rockaway peninsula between Far Rockaway and Seaside stations is relocated from ground level to a reinforced concrete elevated structure designed for easy conversion to future rapid transit operation.
1950 - 1800 feet of LIRR Jamaica Bay trestle destroyed in a fire. The route is closed and all LIRR trains operate between Rockaway Park and Penn Station/Brooklyn via Valley Stream.
1952 - NY City buys the LIRR Rockaway Branch between White Pot Junction (Rego Park) and Rockaway Park/Far Rockaway.
1955-56: NYC Transit builds new concrete trestle to replace the old LIRR trestle across Jamaica Bay, including two new drawbridges.
1956 - IND trains begin running to Rockaway Park and Wavecrest using Fulton Street subway, a new connection to the BMT Liberty Avenue el, and connection to former LIRR line just east (south) of Rockaway Blvd. Station. LIRR Far Rockaway branch begins operating in present configuration between NY/Brooklyn and Far Rockaway via Valley Stream. LIRR also maintains limited service between Penn and Ozone Park via old Rockaway Branch as well.
1958 - current Mott Avenue station opens.
1962 - LIRR ends Ozone Park service.
So NYC owns the ROW from Rego Park to IND junction...
I wonder if there are any uses for this. Any ideas?
There have been many plans calling for its future use, but your guess is as good as mine as to the probability of it ever happening. For instance, the "Reducing Subway Overcrowding at the Manhattan CBD Cordons - Vol 1: The Queens Cordon" published in http://www.fta.dot.gov/fta/library/planning/queen/queen.html
proposes a Central Queens Subway here. The Full Third Regional Plan published by the RPA in http://maestro.com/~rpa/rxplan.html proposes this as an Rx link to Kennedy airport to Penn Station.
The IND Second System included a Myrtle-Central Ave.-Rockaway line which would have used LIRR ROW out to the Rockaways. It was one of the two proposed trunk lines from S. 4th St., the Utica Ave. line being the other. This line also included the Winfield Spur, which would have originated at the never-used Roosevelt Ave. terminal station, and included tie-ins in both directions to the Queens line.
Andy -
Thanks for the info. I had always guessed that the elevated section was built around the 1930s, based upon the type of construction, but now I know.
Ed Sachs
http://www.nydailynews.com/1999-03-05/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-21499.asp
Calling the lawyers -
Who do you think will win this case?
As much as I tend to dislike lawsuits, this one just might serve a valid purpose if it leads to having intercoms or emergency call buttons installed in every subway car. I think it's criminally negligent that they weren't installed years ago.
A bunch of rowdy school kids with intercoms & emergency call buttons. Do you know how many false alarms & vandalism? All passengers are not civil! The Customer Alarm cars on the J were decommissioned because of those problems.
So preventing falling between cars beats allowing escape from trouble? Anyone old enough to ride the subway without a guardian should know about the safety concepts. As to emergency call equipment, the reality in New York may well be more cops onboard. I well remember in the late 60's when every train evening through late night had at least one who constantly walked the train, and in some areas several rode each, as well as one per station. Where will the money come from? A few less B-2's could buy the entire 2nd Ave line. It is long past time to reorder the money.
At one time the R-44/R-46 fleet had toggle switches inside the car as well as outside to unlock the end doors in an emergency. They were removed because they were mis-used by customers for moving between cars for nothing more than convenience or looking for a seat. If the end doors on the 75 foot cars were used ny customers only in emergency, I'd say that the switches should be restored. However, we all know what the facts are. I don't know what your experiences are but I've frequently had to cross between 75 foot cars while in motion. It can be a frightening experience. I, however, can not weigh the fear of crossing between cars vs the fear of being confronted by potential criminal harm. I do know that the greater potential for real harm is in crossing between 75 foot cars that are moving.
Sir, As a long time railfan(54) AND definitely concerned about safety, I make no general defense of crossing between 75 footers in motion on a curve. (Gone are the days of riding at the open vestibules on hot summer nights on the Lex) However, the severe problems with the overlength cars indicate an engineering mistake. Lockimg the doors is a poor response. I am reminded of the Slant 40's beloved by many. When delivered with only the low railing, they invited stupidity on the porches. The TA's first response was locking the doors.
And that general defect has been remedied by the much-maligned ironwork that graces the sloped ends of these cars (I myself do not object to the sight of these railings; I have become rather used to them). One thing remains to be fixed, however: why can't they put grab handles between the "B" ends of the Slant R40s and their brethren, the R40Ms. They have them on the R42s (slightly different body style than R40M); is there something that precludes putting them in on the R40 and R40M? I never cross the "B" end of either Slant R40 or R40M unless the train is dead stopped.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
Anyone who designs to make something foolproof underestimates a fool. Frankly, I never found locking end doors a problem but, then again, I have a key. I ride the trains every day (and night). Crossing between cars is only part of the problem. The number of people urinating or smoking between cars is really where the problem is. When you cross between cars, you usually use two hands to hold on. When engaged in those other activities, at least one hand is occupied. A sudden sharp turn to either side and the offender can easily slip between cars. When viewed as a whole, there is far more of that activity to worry about than the criminal activity which sparked this thread. Finally, if the end doors were unlocked, what's to guarantee that these miscreants would not use the unlocked doors to pursue their victim or even perpertrate their mayhem in more than one car.
[Finally, if the end doors were unlocked, what's to guarantee that these miscreants would not use the unlocked doors to pursue their victim or even perpertrate their mayhem in more than one car.]
That's an interesting point, as far as I know no one's raised it before. My guess is that unlocked end doors mainly would be useful in enabling riders to get away from noisome skells or obnoxious panhandlers. As you point out, unlocked end doors would be less of a help when it comes to predatory criminal types. Cases in point: as far as I can tell from media reports (admittedly, far from the full story), only one of the recent slashings *might* have been prevented had the victim been able to escape to the next car.
On the 75 foot cars, when they go through an especially tight curve, you will see that the end doors do not line up. There is a great chance of #1 falling between the cars, and #2 if you are an especially large person, getting squeezed between the two cars.
At least on the 60 and 51 foot cars, the anti-climbers stay relativly adjacent to each other for easier access from car to car.
I have seen that countless times - and the best demonstration of this is on the N or R lines north of Cortlandt Street. Picture yourself trying to cross between cars of an R46 or R68 as it whipsaws around those two curves. You'd never make it. I went through there on Slant R40 #4370 Sunday at about 3:25pm. That's also rather dangerous - there are no grab handles between the "B" ends. In fact, crossing between cars while the train is in motion even on a straightaway is ill-advised at best, dangerous at worst (however, the professionals of the train crews seem to be well-practiced at this). When I was a much younger man, I attempted to cross between the cars of an R-6/R-7 mix on the EE while it rounded the Cortlandt Street curves, just for the thrill of it (having had successfully done so earlier on a southbound R27/30 on the RR). I was about to step out between the two cars when the train whipped from the right turn into the left. I almost lost my balance. That stopped me dead in my tracks.
I treat sharp curves with respect when riding the Subway.
Wayne
During 1967, I would take the D from 205th St to 59th, transfer to the A all the way to Far Rockaway. I also traveled to Rockaway on the thru express that originated at 42nd & 8th Ave Station (lower level), and only made 2 or 3 stops (Euclid was one of them) before going onto the Rockaway line. I think the special express fare was $1 one way.
I can not remember if there was a special express return to 42nd St.
I think there was also a special express train to Acqueduct Race Track that departed from the 42nd St lower level platform and I assume that there was a return special train from the Acqueduct station.
Yes, Aqueduct Specials originated from the lower level at 42nd St. Did you take the escalator from the mezzanine back then? It was in the extreme southwest corner of the mezzanine and was marked "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special". If those specials did make the return trip to Manhattan, they probably turned off to Queens on the E line after 42nd St., since the lower level was and is accessible only by southbound E trains.
Those are my memories, getting a little fuzzy now, but another significant chapter in NYC transit history.
I was working at GPO at the time and there were times, that i could go down to PRR train to pick up or deliver mail from the RPO or I would just accompany the (armed) registered mail clerk on his trips down to the train. Wow, what an era that was.
On my days off suring the summer, I preferred going out to Far Rockaway for some ocean swimming. My favorite watering hole out there at that time was Sams on the Boardwalk. As a railfan, I also went out on one of the Acqueduct Specials, just so I could watch the movements after the trip out. Incidentally, the train pulled into the inbound platform. Then I waited for the next outbound for Rockaway.
And for some reason, I never took my camera along. I guess I never felt comfortable hauling my camera equipment around the NYC subway, even back then, except for fan trips, which I did not participate in at that time, if there were any. One thing that I never had the opportunity to do was span the Y from Rocakaway Beach to Far Rockaway.
You asked about the escalator at 42nd St. I think that was the only (controlled) access to the lower level outbound Rockaway & Acqueduct specials.
Again, I can not remember specifically any return specials, except that there must/may have been one for the Acqueduct trains. Isn't there a middle lay-up track north of the 8th Ave 42nd St station that would have provided the turn-back for any returning specials.
If memory serves the S Aqueduct Special would lv 42 St stbd M-F 10a-12n and on Sat 10a-1pm. On weekdays there was no return service, I believe that the trains were put back into regular E service for the evening rush since at that time (late 1960's) the E served Euclid and the Rockaways during the rush hours. It was on Saturdays that the service would get very interesting. It was the only day that return service was offered. Trains would start to leave Aqueduct Race Track at the conclusion of the 7th race and continue until the track closed.Half the trains would run as S Aqueduct Specials running form ART to Hoyt to 42 then make regular express stops to Continental and terminate. The other half operated as E 8th Avenue Express trains making regular express stops from ART to Continental.My mother and I used to vist a Times Square Store which I believe was on Pitkin Blvd and we would ride these E express trains back to Manhattan. Of course the extra fare was charged only if you rode the S train.
Regards,Larry
At about what time would the 7th race end? If it ended at around 5:00 PM on Saturdays, that would explain the oddly-marked train of R-1/9s we took once at Broadway-Nassau. I don't remember what the bulkhead signs were set to (possibly E), but the side signs did say S/Special. It ran express along 8th Ave., and when we got off at 42nd St., I watched the train as it pulled out. Sure enough, it switched to the Queens-bound track.
And to top it all off, the first car was an R-1 or R-4 with no headlights.
P. S. No, there is no layup track north of 42nd St. The Queens line tracks diverge at that point.
Yesterday afternoon I arrived at LGA at the USAirways Shuttle terminal, but had to stop at the Marine Air terminal for an appointment before coming in to Manhattan. The usual way to do this is take the Route B shuttle, a free Port Authority bus that loops around LGA. But with no PA bus in sight, an M-60 pulls up! Since I know that the M-60 goes to the Marine Air terminal before proceeding to Manhattan, I took out my FunPass, got on, and dipped... just riding within the airport. After my appointment at Marine Air, I got on another bus for my trip into town.
I wonder if there are other places in the city where can normally take a free shuttle, but if you have an unlimited MetroCard, it's just as easy to dip and ride?
The first obvious one is the Q10 around JFK.
Sorrr, Aaron; you are incorrect. The Q-10 is NOT a free bus;Not even in the Airport area. You must always dip.
You are right that the Q-10 is not free! My point was that if you have an unlimited MetroCard, you can use a "fare" bus as a substitute for a free shuttle, if more convenient to do so.
Maybe the other posters point was that the Q-10 doesn't go to the long term parking lot, or the IND A train station at Howard Beach, for that you'll need the Port Auth shuttle.
P.S. I enjoyed "Traffic & Weather Togather" this weekend !
Mr t__:^)
Agreed, Mr. T. It was one of those spur of the moment things; while waiting at the USAirways terminal for the Port Authority free shuttle bus to get me to the Marine Air terminal side, the M-60 came along. I unwrapped my FunPass and dipped! (It was one of the new low-floor Orion buses, and the farebox kept saying "Read Error" when I dipped my newly unwrapped FunPass. So the operator told me to stay on, and give it to a Subway Station Agent to check out. But when I got on the Q-47 to take me to Roosevelt Avenue, it dipped/read fine, and swiped/read fine too for the rest of the day.)
We've been having a lot of MC "Read errors" which seem to relate to the "TPU", i.e. MC reader, but the TA shop is in denial. I believe it was "Lou from Brooklyn" that reported a similar problem months ago.
Part of the problem is that the R/W head gets dirty & the cleaning pad doesn't get it all.
Well pardon me for rambling on about a work problem ....
Mr t__:^)
Todd and Aaron, please do not take offense.I just did not want anyone who has a "time card" to assume and dip and lose a fare unnecessarily.
I'd like to make the following request. Is there anyone out there with expired "7-Day" and especially "30-DAY" and "30-DAY Reduced Fare Pass". I collect these items as a hobby, due to my extreme interest in public transportation networks from all over the world.
Thank you for your time.
For the record:
-Q10 (Greenbus Lines) goes from Kew Gardens to JFK. It does make a circuit around the airport.
- At La Guardia there are several bus lines, the M60 comes from Manhattan, but the Q33 & Q48 will also get you off that airport.
Mr t__:^)
Todd, try this on any "Subway shuttle" . It is supposedly "free" but not every Hardhead is told this.
In the NY Post for Saturday March 6, page 12, is a small article about three people being injured in three different slashings. One on the D train near the Grand Street station in Manhattan. The second slashing on a southbound #4 train at 125th Street. The third at Smith and 9th street on a northbound F train.
Your thoughts on this is most welcome.
As the Sgt on Hill Street Blues always said, ''Let's be careful out there.''
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
You know what we need? Paul Kursey riding the subways! And may be cameras. That would bring crime down. Also why not install vastibules
on cars. Like the LIRR. That way passengers can pass through be not fall on to the tracks.
Make that four slashings; there was another reported on the D train between 145th Street and 155th Street-8th Avenue; the perps got off at 155th.
As for vestibules or flexible curtains between 75-foot cars; I think the curves on NYCT are too sharp to make this practical. I know of only two sharp curves on the entire LIRR; one on the Hempstead Branch between Garden City and Country Life Press and the other on the Far Rockaway/Long Beach branch, just east of Jamaica. All the other curves are very broad. I don't think one of those would hold together going round some of NYCT's serpentine curves, esp. on the lower Broadway Line, where 75-foot cars are common.
Wayne
These are just the incidents that the news media has learned about and reported.Weds. past I was on a s/b Delta at the 7 ave station when there was a report of a shooting on a n/b delta i never saw or read anything concerning this.
While tragic let's remember that the media has a way of draweing attention to subway crime. People get killed in fast food restaurants, people get killed at post offices. people get killed on their job. No one says "Stop going to the post office ".
Please! let's put subway crime in perspective. The subways are still safer than the streets. If people would use common sense there woduld be less of a problem--If someone wants your seat, let them have it. I'd rather stand or find another seat than be knifed. I sugegst during off-hours that you ride in the same car as the conductor or train operator. If you feel uncomfortable tell them-they have radios and can call the police. If you see a police officer and feel uncomfortable about another passenger do not hesistate to tell ther officer--especially if the passenger is what we'd call EDP--Emotionally Disturbed Person.
***disclaimer--while I am a station agent and some material is based on official info, the post contains personal opinions and not those of MTA or NYCT.***
Yes, Everything you said was absolutly currect,But one problem. Everytime a person complains about a Emotionaly Disurbed Person I call Control and all they say is "Train Operator signal in route for Police." But the police never respond. I give up!
If more incidents like these occur, the press may start asking Guliana and Safir whether or not it was such a smart idea after all to merge the transit police in to the rest of the police department.
Did Rudy ever admit he was wrong? About anything?
He never has been wrong about anything!
In the NY Daily News Sunday March 7, page 8, are two new articles on the now 4 people who were slashed on the subway's.
The person who was slashed on the D train at 155th Street and 8th Ave is doing ok.
I take the D train from Bedford Park Blvd to and from work and i pass the 155th Street and 8th Ave stop. It is a desolate stop and is the stop where you can get off go to the old Polo Grounds when the Giants baseball team used to play.
When you read both articles your thoughts on this are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
In the NY Post Sunday March 7, page 12, is also an article about the 4th person who was slashed at 155th Street and 8th Ave on the D train on Saturday March 6. The NY Post said it happened at 12:50 am and the NY Daily News said it happened at 2:52am.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I hope that when it's time to buy replacement cars for the 600 foot train length B division routes, consideration would be given to buying 5 car linked 60 foot units rather than 4 75 foot units. The overwelming majority of readers of this thread know that turns in many areas are too sharp to allow unlocked end doors on 75 foot cars. Yes, you can get slashed in a car with unlocked end doors (as what happened on the #4), but in a 75 foot car, if you see a suspicious looking character, you can't get off till the next station. It's a long ride between 125th & 59th Streeets or over the Manhattan Bridge. By then, it may be too late. With my proposal, even with the locked #1 end of the A car for the transverse cab, you can still get out of the #2 end in an emergency. Also, NYCT lately has been saddled with far too many incidents of doors failing to open enroute at stations. Just a few days ago, 2 cars of an R68 N train had door opening failure at several stations. It was necessary for the passengers to pull the cord to notify the crew.
If the legal action over the locked doors is successful, I doubt the MTA will order any more 75-footers. But since the R-32s/38s/40s/42s and R-44s figure to be around at least until 2010, it will be a while before they have to make that decision.
He probably has a sign in his office which says,
Rule #1: The mayor is always right.
Rule #2: If the mayor is ever wrong, please see rule #1.
Never mind the "The buck stops here" sign; that went out with Harry Truman.
After several years, I am of the opinion that the merging of the NYC Transit Police Force with the NYPD was a mistake as it affected transit. The police now seem to be less responsive and less sensative to transit concerns and needs. While it's nice to know that an executive order has moved extra police under ground in the wake of the recent mini-crime wave, it should also be noted that the police forces under-ground are less concerned about and less knowledgable of transit's special needs. One contradiction tot he above is the transit vandal squad which does an excellent job.....
Of course, by this time we all know that there were actually 4 slashings within 24 hours. The mayor has ordered increased police presence on the trains, too. There appears to be a copy-cat mentality that is running amok on the subways. Lets face it though: Unless theres a cop on every car of every train, on every station platform and every mezzanine, someone bent on crime will commit one.
The Artwork is entitled "When the Animals Speak" by Elizabeth Grajales 1998.. The main pices are on the end walls of the express platform. The South mosaic features a 9 by 14 foot mural of a lion with a bird on his back facing his mate. The North panel features a 15 foot by 13 foot bear looking toward a deer and her young. The small panels are 12inch square ceramic panels and depict birds courting,nest-building and nurtunring their young.
SOURCE: Official MTA Arts for Transit Flyer.
DAVE: Wayne has photos coming. Please add to the description of the station.
The following stations are now undergoing renovation:Broadway-Nassau IND, 34th/8th Ave. While I have no info yet, I expect artwork will be added to both stations. As far as Broadway-Nassau, the renovation includes the Fulton Street 2/3 Mezzanine and the connecting passageways to the A/C ; J/M/Z, and the 4/5.
I may add the reason for the artwork is a new federal requirement-the same reason that federal office buildings have "all that artwork"
I hope the artwork looks like the animal mosaics they have at the Fifth Avenue station.
BTW, some idiot wrote graffiti on one of the polar bears this week.
That is too bad! However that is high-glaze tile and with a little solvent that should come right off with no lasting damage (if it's ink; spray paint could be tougher to remove). Kids who do that should be made to remove their tags themselves and do community service.
Wayne
I hope the artwork looks like the animal mosaics they have at the Fifth Avenue station.
BTW, some idiot wrote graffiti on one of the polar bears this week.
That is too bad! However that is high-glaze tile and with a little solvent that should come right off with no lasting damage (if it's ink; spray paint could be tougher to remove). Kids who do that should be made to remove their tags themselves and do community service.
Wayne
Does anyone out there know on when F express service in Brooklyn will return & how many car sets are needed for the F express. Please post on subtalk.
Thanks,
Michael
The F express will not return until there is enough money, and enough cars, to run at least 8 trains (preferably 10) per hour on both the local and the express during rush hours. That would take a lot more trains. Paying for them would require a lot more riders, and perhaps a lower cost per ride as well.
Another, less optimistic answer, is that the F express will return when the Manhtattan Bridge is shut down for a long time, if not for good, and everyone who now rides the D, Q, N or B has to take a 30 minute bus ride, and then board the F.
Just enjoyed the listing of movies filmed in and/or featuring the NYC Subway. Please add to the list the following: "The Brother from Another Planet" (1984), directed by John Sayles (I think). It's about a black alien who finds himelf on Earth. It has been many years since I've seen it, but I remember at least two scenes in the subway, including the final shot of Joe Morton looking out of the rear window of a departing train.
Speaking of subway movies...
American Movie Classics featured The Wrong Man with Henry Fonda this past Saturday, but I MISSED it!! By the time I saw it listed in my TV Guide, it was too late.
I was watching the show Brimstone on Fox yesterday...the pilot which was set in New York City, and there was some fake subway history. The deceased guy was supposedly in New York from 1896 to 1906(when he was hung). He brings with him some subway tokens. I thought they were still using tickets in 1906? And he later hangs out in the abandoned eastern fork of the Lexington Avenue Line, which was supposedly bricked up around the war. Nice to know that they at least knew the name of one of the subway lines.
Is my knowledge of the subways so lacking that I missed these things? Or did they make it up, becuase NYC subway history isn't interesting enough? Or they didn't want to bother with a five minute bit of research here at nycsubway.org?
Honestly, would it be so hard for these movies to be accurate?
They probably did use tickets at that time. I may be mistaken but when the fare was 5 cents and 10 cents I thought the subway used nickels and dimes not tokens. They started using tokens when the fare was raised to 15 cents requiring two coins instead of one. I am not sure but even after the fare was raised to 15 cent I don't think the busses accepted tokens until they went to exact fare.
As for the Lexington Avenue Line I dont think any part was abandoned. However, the south ferry shuttle was discontinued in the 1970s. The track is still used as a turn around loop for Lexington avenue expresses that terminate at Bowling Green in lower Manhattan..
I'm aware of the last thing. I watched a turn-around the last and only time I was at South Ferry. Or rather a 5 train stopping in the loop.
Based on what Hollywood has done in recent years, they probably got it mixed up with the history of the Toronto subway.
That was the original episode that I saw and mentioned here back in November.
And what do they get for inaccurate history?
Fox will not pick them up for a second season.
When the original Interborough opened in 1904, you went to a ticket booth and bought a ticket that a guard using a "ticket chopper" took from you and chopped up. This had been used on the els (owned by the IRT at the time) previously, so was adopted when the foirst lines opened. The BRT/BMT also used this system at first; but when ridership got extremely high and also to save money they finally introduced turnstiles about 1923(?) or so. Then you could get change at the old ticket booths. When they raised the fare to 15 cents in 1953..they made the 'change' booths token booths...
The IND had turnstiles right from the beginning. The last station to use ticket choppers was 161st St. on the IRT, where they remained in use until 1948. My father still remembers watching his cousin drop dimes in the turnstiles on the BMT in 1949.
You guys make me feel awfully old! I can remember dropping nickels into turnstiles on both the BMT and IRT. You wouldn't believe the chaos that resulted when the fare was doubled.
In Baltimore the fare went from 5 cents to a dime in 1930. The new Peter Witts and the "hoity-toity" Double Deck buses on Charles Street (A Line) and Mount Royal Avenue (B Line) got electric one-coin-at a time fareboxes. The boxes took only tokens or dimes - in a city that was "Nickel Town" right through the 1960's. Every passenger using tokens - no problem, but everybody with cash had to change the two nickels into a dime, which went in the slot. After two weeks of this, the Witts got manual Johnson "D" fareboxes. The buses - they kept the fancy fareboxes - their loading wasn't as crush as a streetcar.
At BSM we got one of the 12 volt boxes. At 12 volts, the tokens/dimes get pitted by the current. I shudder to think what happened on the Witts - those boxes were 600 volt models.
"Nickel Town" - my changer was (and is)unusual - I had a dime barrel. If I got 2 dimes on a run, it was unusual. The fare in 1963 was 25 cents - and if the passenger didn't have a quarter, five nickels went in the box, not 2 dimes and a nickel. Only recently (1980 or so) have dimes made much of an inroad. On today's MTA buses somebody paying the $1.35 for a single ride will deposit a dollar bill, a quarter and two nickels in the farebox.
Or one could drop US$3.00 into the farebox for an all-day pass. Senior citizens and the handicapped get an even better deal: 45 cents per single ride, or US$1.00 for an all-day pass.
I would imagine there were howls of protest when the fare went up to 15 cents in 1953. It was 20 cents when we moved to New Jersey in 1967.
The choppers at 161 st were only used after Yankee games where there was a big crowd.......
Hey, it's FOX. If it isn't the 'Worlds Wildest...' or something that 'Attacks', they don't NEED to get the facts. Coming soon, from FOX:
'When Subways Attack World's Wildest Pregnant Cattle Chases 3!'
-Hank :)
Based on various subtalk postings here and my own observations, I've come up with a few thoughts that I want to share with you.
R62As on the 1: 5 car link pin project continues. I was riding in car 2171 today, which has a transverse cab and made note of the following: the panel that was extended outward to meet the door has something previous transverse cabs don't have. The panel that meets the door doesn't have a window! Instead, a steel panel was fastened here and an advertising rack is in this location.
R62As on the 3: no major work done yet. However, I did notice that on car 1931, a red sticker has appeared on the car's roofline above the cab. What is that you ask? Looks like they're going to extend the cabs on these cars. If the TA gets their way, all R62As will be converted into 5 car sets. Transverse cabs on the 3? Sure. Let's say for argument sakes the 5 car project takes effect on the 3. What happens now? A section of Lenox Yard would have to be abandoned or used for something else. 10 car 3 trains would have to be stored somewhere. 137 St Yard seems to be the best candidate for that. I highly doubt that the TA would be willing to invest in any money in extending the Lenox Yard Tracks.... Anyway, certain 3s could start out of 137 St, particularly during the rush hour. They (TA) did it during Lenox Rehab, so it's not that unrealistic. We could say at least for the start, the cars will remain single in anticipation that they will feed the 42nd St Shuttle and any yard cutbacks in Lenox Yard would have to be discussed.
R62As on the 6: 1651-1670 have now been converted into 5 car sets. These are running on the opto shift. How can Westchester Yard convert R62As if 1909 is wrecked? Something will have to stay single OR, you bring 1909 back.
The Shuttle Situation is more complicated; postings here have had conflicting reports. Westchester Yard will no longer have the shuttle assignments soon; supposedly these are going to Livonia Yard. But if Livonia is going to the 5 car conversion process, then what does that do to the shuttle? Abandon a platform at 42 St and extend the other platforms to accomodate 5 cars? Is it realistic? Someone stated that TRACK 4 would be abandoned. Why? It's connected to 7th Av. I thought the most logical place to abandon a track is three being the middle track. You can cover over track three, and leave the tracks against the wall. Whatever the case maybe, I'll safely assume that at least for the meantime, cars on the shuttle will remain single. Leaving them single means that they don't have to make any modifications to the shuttle stations.
What happens ultimately on the 7 depends on how far this project goes. It seems in my opinion, that the R62As are unlikely if there are no spares available. They COULD permanently run 10 car sets, and cut the platforms. But why bother? The R142s will probably wind up here, if the cars can be reconfigured into 6 car units, as various reports state.
Unfortunately, the R62As are losing their single identity.
-Constantine
What would you do about 145 St. station? That station can only fit 4 cars, and on a 10 car train, the conductor has to operate 5x5.
If the north and south bound platforms at 145st are the same length then there will not be a problem with 10 car train at that station. Currently they operate with 4 cars South, 5 cars North. North bound, 5 cars fit nicely in 145 st. If I remember correctly, South bound there is one full car in the station to the rear of the conductors position.
Two weekend ago when the No. 1 had a major Genaral Order the No. 3 trains that went to South Ferry had 10 cars and was able to open up 5 Cars. The No.2 also had GO'S were they went to 148 St. Theres only one problem on the Southbound Plat the Conductor has no board so the T/O has to give 2 Buzzers.
From this B Division Motorman, thanks for the clarification. I was told in the past that 145 St. is the reason why the #3 only ran 9 cars. So then, I assume the A division doesn't have enough cars for 10 car service on the #3. I would think #2 & #3 trains sharing common trackage for such a large portion of their routes would cause passenger loading problems due to passengers having one less car to load onto.
On the No.3 Line car No. 1915 is transvers.
1651-1915 are on the 6, Mr. Foster! 1916-2155 are on the 3.
If the shuttle assignments are going to be handled by Livonia, then transverse cabs are inevitable on the 3. Remember that the 42nd Street Shuttle operates OPTO so the full width cabs are absolutely necessary.
I don't see OPTO leaving us anytime soon, do you???
-Constantine
Currection that must of been car 1916 Transvse on the No.3 at Times Squre. Also OPTO like it or not is here to stay and I will aviod it as long as I can but if I have to do it it will be a very slow ride! I'll take 1 Min at each stop if I have to. Then follow those posted speed signs and answer all questions from the Costomers. Lets see how long that takes.
Ok. That answers my question. Still this conversion process is hectic. How does the Operations and Planning Department (or whoever else is in charge) propose to link 1906-1910 when 1909 is supposed to be wrecked following an accident in 1996???? Leave them single? Or store them as spares until some other accident occurs? What about it David?
Hey Steve, what do you think?
-Constantine
I wish I new that Question. They will probably leave them single. Hey if I go back to the No.6 Line i'll find out.
Maybe they'll grab another car at random like they did with
1700-1699-1698-1697-....1743. I didn't get a look at 1743's interior so I can only guess as to whether it had a transverse cab.
Here's how I spot possible transverse cabs - if the first car's unit number ends in 1,5,6 or -0-, there's likely a transverse cab in it.
Wayne
In 1991, it was decided that when the R-46s were to be linkad into 4-car units (half way through overhaul) they would be renumbered in the now familiar Even-odd-odd-even sequence where the odd nuber was the even number + one. This was followed through with the R-44s and then with the R-68As and now the R-68s. While the logic of the R-44 or R-46 is evident, since there were no 'A' or 'B' cars in the R-68s or R-68A fleets, the logic on the even-odd-odd-even sequence is lost. More bizzar is the fact that 9 R-68s will not be linked. They will be retained as single car units. However, they will come from the middle of the deck so to speak. The nine unlinked cars will likely be 2716 - 2724 (go figure). Now we fast-foward to the IRT. There the R-62s were linked in a logical sequence 1-2-3-4-5 or 6-7-8-9-0 (I think). My guess would be that the greatest number of consecutive 5-car links will be done and the missing car numbers will be filled in by odd cars where a 5-car link could not be created due to missing cars in the sequence. If this is confusing, I don't blame you cause I'm lost too.
Yes, they seem to be doing exactly that. To wit, the odd bunch #1431-2-3-4...1438. They were helped along there because they lost an entire bunch (5 units) in the Union Square wreck. They'll no doubt fill in #1909's spot by grabbing another car from somewhere, maybe from the #3 fleet. It seems that they're starting at the low end of the fleet (#1651), so if they continue along those lines, they're a ways away from #19xx.
Is #1909 beyond any hope of repair? That is a side impact injury there, no?
Wayne
It was my recollection that the R44s were renumbered first, as
they came back from overhaul. The R46 cars came back linked into
4 car sets, and then after they were already in service with the
original numbers the new numbers were applied. Of course they
were just renumbered where they stood, so there is no rhyme or
reason to the resulting translation map. I've never heard a
good "pro" for doing this, other than making the numbers look
pretty on the trains as they go by.
These bloody trains are crowded enough without the MTA converting to full cabs. Where exactly do they expect people to ride? On the roof?
I'll have to agree with you, sir. You are losing seats, and you're losing a great view of the outside (that is from the front window). The seats in the Japanese and French Canadian cars known as R62s/R62As were probably made for smaller backsides. As the story goes, a NYC council woman insisted that the new cars (back in the 1980s) have 44 seats for passengers. She got her way; bucket seats appeared, but were unfortunately for smaller fannies. Most larger people tend to take up more than one seat. Now in the 1990s, you get a ticket for taking up more than one seat (the Mayor's Quality of Life Issue). However, the reason for the full width cab is for train operator comfort. Most operators prefer this to the smaller, narrower cab. Also, with this One Person Train Operation scheme, conductor's controls are located on both sides of the full width cab, so the train operator can go from one side of the car to the other without going in between cars.
-Constantine
This whole site is brilliant. I'm looking for similar sites to this from around the world to add to my fun site about travelling on the London Underground. Please take a look at my site and sign my guest book to let me have your views.
“Going Underground” is a great site for tourists, local Londoners and anyone with an interest in public transport. But most of all, it's good fun. It tells you all you need to know about travelling
on the London Underground with excellent links to other useful sites. There's comment, chat, funny characters, books to read and lots and lots of other info too.
src="http://victorian.fortunecity.com/finsbury/254/gulogo2.gif">
Going Underground - a fun site about travelling on the London Underground
Sorry I seemed to screw up posting my logo earlier hope this works now:
Going Underground - a fun
site about travelling on the London Underground
You should start with our Transfer Station and go from there to find some more interesting sites!
-Dave
FYI: At the Transit Museum store in Grand Central they are selling a video about the Third Avenue El.
It's in color, runs 11 minutes and retails for $19.95. It has some great shots of Manhattan in the late 1940's-early '50's.
If you're a museum member be sure to show your member card and get 10% off. I bought it on Thursday and there were plenty of copies left.
$19.95 for 11 minutes? No wonder there are a lot of copies left.
What is the danger of crossing a 75 foot car? The Daily News said something about a whip affect. Anyone can explain what they mean by this? I seen the end of 75 foot cars round the curve on the F line in Coney Island. Maybe there should be auto switches that lock door when
the train turns and then unlocks after rounding the curve.
Adjacent 75-foot cars `whip' out of alignment more then 60-footers or the IRT's 50-footers because of their larger turning radius. That makes the angle between the two cars greater and increases the shift back and forth when the train enters and leaves a curve.
A curve lock would work only if you could assure the door is closed and nobody was trying to walk between the cars just before the train entered the curve. There's no way the MTA can make sure that doesn't happen, especially on an F coming out of QP at rush hour.
Say, I always wonder how LIRR/MNRR and Amtrak, which have longer cars, can be safe to cross through. They even have that articuated type enclosure preventing anyone from falling out from between cars.
Amtrak, MNRR and LIRR do not have the tight radius curves that the NYCT has.
Amtrak, LIRR and MNCR cars also have extensions that completely eliminate any gap between the cars.
-Hank
Cab ends of LIRR and Metro North MU's fit quite closely together. I doubt that there is enough room for someone to fall out even if they tried. Contrast that to the subway, where there is a considerably greater distance between cars.
Durring a snow storm one Winter, I was able to get inbetween the cars to enter & exit the train (it was packed), in retorspect it was a pritty dumb move on my part.
Mr t__:^)
Is the distance from the centerpoint of the truck of, say, an R46 to its coupler any different from the same dimension on an Amtrak, NJT, LIRR, or MBTA coach car with enclosed vestibules?
The curves at Coney Island are rather wide,which might create the impression that it's no more dangerous crossing between 75 footers than 60 footers. For a real comparison check out a tight curve,such as between City Hall and Cortlandt on the N/R. There,with 75 footers,it's easy to see how a person between cars could be crushed by the interaction of the car bodies.
There's a turn like this in Chicago where Metra-Union Pacific trains are coming out of the downtown terminal. Even though the passage between cars is totally enclosed so nobody can fall out, you would NOT want to be in there because, as you put it, "a person between cars could be crushed by the interaction of the car bodies." Specifically, on a turn, the ends of the cars SLIDE past each other, and on a sufficiently narrow or "hard" turn, the *lateral* space between the doorway of one car and the doorway of the next shrinks to a point where it's too small for a person to survive!
This Satuarday Morning at 9:40AM there was a major Police action that started at 28 St-Park Ave on the No.6. Police was casing someone that ran onto the tracks so there was No service from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge. No 5 train were running down the Westside to South Ferry. Service did not go back to normal intil about 10:45AM.
At 11:00 I had my own problems I was coming taward 181 ST I spoted a person jump from the Uptown platform. I was going Uptown. I saw a dark figure cross the track to the Downtown. So a take a hard brake and blast the horn. I spoted the guy on the Southbound track. He was walking south taward 168 ST. Then a seen a southbound No.1 at 191 St. So I call control. So control ignors me at first. Then a yell 12-1. Control argent! Then they say What train is calling? I told them my call letters. Then they ask for operating motor. So I give it to them.Then I tell them I'm leaving 181 and spoted Unauthorized on the roadbed walking south of 181 ST toward 168 St. Then they asked for my call letters again. I tell them again. Now the train is upproaching me. So I tell him whats happing because I gave up on control. So the other T/O acknowledged me. So he tells control that hes the 10:57 Van Courtland approaching 181 St. So control keeps asking me the same Qestions. So the then He finally gets my Info. Then now he keeps asking the other T/O the same question over and over again.
Don't blame control so much David. The radio reception all along that stretch from 137 to Dykman is especially poor. There are loads of dead spots. It's something they are working on.
I would like to know on when 6th Av/Broadway-Brooklyn service will return & where will 6th Av service operate, either the Jamaica Av or Myrtle Av lines & where will it terminate along 6th Av. Please post on subtalk.
Thanks,
Michael
I don't work for the TA, and don't have any inside knowledge. I have never heard it proposed, however. Before coming onto NYC subway resources a year or two ago, I had no idea that connection was there. My guess is most other people don't know its there either.
It is conceivable that when the 63rd connection opens, instead of one additional local with 12 trains per hour going through at rush hour, the TA could send two additonal 6th Avenue locals through. In that case, one might run out to Jamaica Center as the Z.
But one of the questions is, will the A/B tracks on the Manhattan Bridge be closed at the same time that the 63rd St tunnel opens? In that case, the 63rd St tunnel trains could be directed down the Broadway line and out to Brooklyn.
When the bridge switches sides, there will be 3 expresses on Broadway. one always switches to the local track and goes to Astoria, but that would leave 2 lines going through 63rd St from Bway, and nowhere to turn one of them. That would leave 3 Bway services on Queens Blvd., and I just don't see them doing anything like that. They probably won't use the Broadway connection during this phase. They'll just use 57th St as the terminal as always.
(Three expresses on QB, won't be done). I'm not sure.
I think you would have just four services on the Broadway line, three express (B, D, N) and one local (R). The local and one express could go to Astoria via 60th St, and the other two expresses could go to the Queens Blvd local via 63rd St.
What about the Q? It could become the QJ/QZ, and take the place of the N in the Montigue tunnel.
If you are going to run trains from the north to lower Manhattan on 6th Avenue and stop, and trains from the south to Midtown via Broadway and stop, you are going to need more trains to cover the overlap areas. To conserve cars, the trains have to run through.
The TA isn't going to choose the best service, its going to choose either the cheapest of the least change (since things will have to change back, and some people may like a new service pattern). If Steve is right about a car shortage, I vote for the cheapest.
The cheapest would be to terminate 6th Avenue express service at 34th (or better yet Rock Center, where you would squeeze on the F), and run as many trains through from Brooklyn to Queens as you can.
I don't think it is even being considered. There was a problem with the K: because so many people were used to taking the F to Delancey to change for Jamaica trains, and so many more F trains were scheduled, most took the F anyway rather than wait for a K.
I would like to know on what the service plans are for the 63rd St/Queens Blvd Connection when it opens in 2001 with & without the Manhattan Bridge flipflop. Please post on subtalk.
Thanks,
Michael
As I said, I don't have any inside knowledge, I don't think anyone here does. Maybe they'll need four plans -- one with the A/B tracks of the Manhattan Bridge closed and the H tracks open, one with the H tracks closed and the A/B tracks open, one with both opened, and one with both closed.
That's what the East River Crossing study did. Each service Plan was designated as -N, -S, -O, and -C (North open, South, fullu open and fully closed)
Does anyone know what the tracks are used for going parallel to the NY Thruway on the way to Albany. Also the bridge next to the Mid-Hudson Bridge going in to Poughkeepsie?
the tracks north of kingston are part on the river line. the brigde at poughkeepsie is the l+h line from maybrook ny to hopewell jct.
[Does anyone know what the tracks are used for going parallel to the NY Thruway on the way to Albany. Also the bridge next to the Mid-Hudson Bridge going in to Poughkeepsie?]
If you're talking about the stretch of the Thruway north of Suffern, along Harriman State Park, those tracks are Metro-North's Port Jervis line. This line is jointly operated with New Jersey Transit, starting in Port Jervis with stops at Otisville, Middletown, Salisbury Mills/Cornwall, and Harriman (and maybe one or two others). After Suffern, it uses NJ Transit trackage into Hoboken. Manhattan-bound riders can transfer to PATH at Hoboken. Even though it's a long run from Port Jervis and some of the other New York stops, ridership is pretty good; compared to some of the other long-haul commuter roures, the Port Jervis line is at least equal in ridership to the LIRR's Montauk line and much better than the LIRR's Greenport line or Metro-North's Waterbury branch.
The Poughkeepsie bridge saw service for nearly 100 years; not only did it see RR service but for a brief time at the beginning of the century trolley cars were towed across the bridge from Highland to Poughkeepsie (this service didn't last long, however - not only did it tie up traffic on the bridge but many passengers were scared of the height above the river and continued to take the ferry). It burned in May 1974, near the Poughkeepsie end, apparently from a hotbox or some other train-borne ignition source. (I drove the last vehicle under the fire area northbound on Route 9 before the police closed the road due to falling debris.) Although there was a fire protection system on the bridge, it had been allowed to fall into disrepair by Penn Central and did not activate. There was some slight structural damage to the bridge from the heat of the fire but the main damage was to the ties and rail. Penn Central didn't have the money for rehabilitation and petitioned for abandonment, which (if I remember correctly) occurred by default when Conrail was created in 1976. The right-of-way on the Poughkeepsie side is largely intact (some connecting bridges over highways have been removed), but I believe that there have been significant encroachments on the Ulster County side of the river. There has been an ongoing dispute over who legally owns the bridge - several individuals and groups are claiming ownership (does anyone have more info on the current status - my dearly beloved Aunt Hilda, of blessed memory, was my source of information until her death in January 1997). At one time about five years ago about half of the bridge, beginning at the west side, was planked and fenced as an observation deck, but access was cut off as part of the ownership fracas and I'm not sure if it has been restored.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's an interesting web site about the P'keepsie Bridge.
http://www.inch.com/~ziggy/RREXTRA.HTM/pbpage.Html.
-Dave
Thanks, Dave - I had no idea the site existed. Unfortunately it doesn't answer all my questions, but, knowing Bill Sepe's reputation, it doesn't surprise me that he's in the thick of things. Hopefully I'll have a chance this summer to check it out in person.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry to jump in so late on this one-I've been busy(ier).
When I was a young'un in the late 40's, my family summered in Woodstock, NY (waaaay before the concert). Before the Thruway was built, we often took Route 9 & 9W, crossing at Poughkeepsie. This took us under the bridge, and the thing I remember best was the coal nets. That scared me, because I figured smaller pieces could fall right through and smash onto the car.
BTW, I don't recall ever watching a train, steam or otherwise, crossing the bridge.
As a Poughkeepsie native (although I hate to admit it - I consider myself a Southerner since I've spent as much of my life south of the Mason-Dixon line as I have north of it) I've been under the bridge many times. My living room is graced by a large color photograph taken from the Mid-Hudson bridge approach (Poughkeepsie side) by my great-uncle, of blessed memory, back about 1938, showing a steam train crossing the bridge and the ferry approaching the Poughkeepsie shore beneath. I remember seeing freight trains crossing the bridge in the NH and Penn Central eras (all diesel - I remember very little steam anywhere except for Steamtown, Vermont and other such places) and a major derailment about five miles east of the bridge in the mid-60s at a spot known as Brickyard Hill.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Isn't this the same bridge which the Dayliner used to turn around at? This was the boat which left daily from, I believe, Pier 81 at W. 41st St. and headed north up the Hudson River. It docked at Bear Mountain and West Point, then continued north to the Poughkeepsie Bridge, where it turned around. There used to be a TV commercial for this boat ride back in the late 60s. We considered taking a cruise on it, but never did.
Yes, it is. My Grandmother, long of blessed memory (and who lived in Yonkers when I was small), took me on the Dayliner ride once and I remember being most confused as to why it wasn't stopping to let us off when we got to Poughkeepsie (I was no more than 4 years old at the time).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder if the Dayliner is still in business. It was included in my Seeing New York book from 1976. I still remember the TV commercial word for word.
Did you ever take the cruise up the Hudson to spend the day at Bear Mtn? It was a nice park but from the moment you arrived until you left you would hear over the PA system over and over again, "The buses are now leaving for the boat landing, Get your buses here, The fare is only ten cents, The buses will take you directly to the boat landing" If you spent the day at Bear Mtn. you could hear this announcement hundreds and hundreds of times. Of course I am talking about the 1950's time period. It was fascinating to see the rows and rows of rusting Libery Ships anchored along the route as you traveled up the river and back.
Ah yes, the mothball fleet near Peekskill! I also have fond memories of the Beacon-Newburgh ferry before the bridge was built. Mother didn't like driving 9W so, rather than take the Mid-Hudson bridge, we would take the ferry across from Beacon to Newburgh when we were going to my grandparents' home in Pennsylvania and I'd stand at the gate and pretend to be in charge. Once the captain (?) invited me into the wheelhouse to "help him steer" - I was perhaps five years old at the time. Never did get into the engine room, however, much as I would have liked to.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What a small world. My wife is a Poughkeepsie native, too.
The Newburgh-Beacon Bridge (carrying I-84), when originally built, was ONE lane in each direction! The backups on I-84 during rush hours could rival those of the LIE (Long Island Expressway). The second twin span (4 lanes wide, including the shoulder) opened sometime in the early '80s (I think 1983).
There was talk of the Poughkeepsie railroad bridge being opened up as a walkway, some said with a row of shops (I never could figure that one out). The "owner" bought it for $1 thinking he could make it into some kind of attraction but it never came to pass, and I think the ownership question has been in litigation for many years. I also think it is becoming an obstacle to ship navigation in its present condition, but since it's been around so long, I'm not sure how.
--Mark
Mark -
See the email I sent you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[What a small world. My wife is a Poughkeepsie native, too.]
My grandfather lived there & tought school in NYC, guess he took mass transit, but I never asked him :-( His father also tought & lived in NYC, Queens when there were still potato fields there.
Mr t__:^)
[There was talk of the Poughkeepsie railroad bridge being opened up as a walkway, some said with a row of shops (I never could figure that one out). The "owner" bought it for $1 thinking he could make it into some kind of attraction but it never came to pass, and I think the ownership question has been in litigation for many years. I also think it is becoming an obstacle to ship navigation in its present condition, but since it's been around so long, I'm not sure how.]
There's a famous Renaissance-era bridge over the Arno River in Florence that's lined with shops, and is quite a tourist attraction. Maybe that's what the buyer was thinking of ... admittedly, Poughkeepsie is somewhat lacking in Tuscan charm and history :-)
I'm not quite sure I understand the part about the Poughkeepsie Bridge's becoming a navigation hazard. Presumably its clearance over river level hasn't changed, and at any rate I don't believe there's much regular shipping (as opposed to low-clearance barges) that far up the Hudson. If the problem is that pieces are falling off the bridge, one would think that there'd also be a danger to people on the roads - and rail line - along the riverbanks. Should that be the case, I fear that the bridge would have to be demolished.
There had been some problems with wooden debris - mainly ties etc. - falling from the bridge, but when the partial walkway was constructed a few years back the old ties were first removed from that portion of the structure. I do seem to recall that the ties have been removed from the Poughkeepsie approach as well, at a more recent time. Whether there are some additional problems now I don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Karl: I believe that one of the reasons for the demise of the Day Line service was the elimination of the bus service from the docks up to the main area. Sometime about the late 1970's they stopped running the buses and this together with the use of the south dock gave people a very long climb uphill.It was a strong deterent to senoir and mothers with children.
Regards,Larry
Welcome back RedbirdR33! I have missed your posts. I was even going to send you an Email but I wasn't sure whether were a .net or a .com. Believe it or not I visited Bear Mtn at least a dozen times in my youth and never once got to ride one of the buses. We always walked up and walked down. I think my Mom called it "Shanks Mare" or something like that. I am getting yellow flashes on this screen, I better shut down. Talk more later, Karl B.
Karl: Good to hear from you.Its RedbirdR33@hotmail.com. I've been catergorizing my timetable collection which is why I've been off line for a while. I never got to ride the bus either. In those days $.25 was a bit of an expense for a family of five.According to a 1955 Day Line Schedule the round trip fare from NY to POK was $3.50 adult and $1.75 child. They also advertise"Knickerbocker" beer.
Best Wishes,Larry
Thanks for the oral history, guys. My dad and uncle took those cruises up the river a few times in the 30s. It was a big excursion, they'd have to go from Jamaica to their aunt's house in Bay Ridge the night before, and get up early, etc. A big deal for little kids from Jamaica in the 30s!
You've inspired me to keep pressing them for stories about growing up in the city.
Lots of things went under in the late 1970s, when the city and the whole Metro Area hit bottom. But some of those things could come back if the economy continues to flourish. Like (I hope) new subways.
No, I never went on the Dayliner, although I can still recite the TV commercial word for word. We considered going on it until my mother asked some friends about it, and found out the boat was dirty, kids were running amock on it, etc. I don't know how much of this was true, but it convinced us not to take the cruise.
And speaking of the Newburgh-Beacon Bridge, yes, the backups could get pretty long on each end. I remember when the twin span was being built when I left Connecticut in 1980; haven't been over the bridge since then. As I understand, the new span was three lanes wide, and when it opened, the original bridge was widened to three lanes as well.
Congress did, in fact, appropriate monies to repair the Bridge soon after the fire but Penn Central refused to make the necessary repairs and, as you related, Conrail then took over.
The line would have made an ideal route for stack trains today.
Carl M.
It would indeed have had a great deal of potential for stack trains; however, there were a large number of road crossings on both sides of the river that would have had to be raised (or the trackbed lowered) to accomodate stacks. As I recall, a plate F or larger car could not cross the bridge because of some country road overpasses on the Ulster County side of the river. Given the mileage savings, however, it would probably have been worth the expense. Sadly, I doubt we'll ever know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(We'll never know about using the bridge for double stacks.
You never know. NYC fought for competing rail carriers to serve the city when Conrail broke up, but all of New England was left with one carrier. And, the Berkshire tunnels block access for double stacks.
Both CSX and Norfolk Southern have tracks in the area. Maybe the one of them that doesn't have New England will want to run trains over th bridge, and onto Hartford, from which all of New England can be served by truck without dealing with the NY Metro Area or I-95.
Then again, the population of all of southern New England (MA, CT, RI) is about the same as that of Long Island if Brooklyn and Queens is included, and no one is rushing to build a rail link there.
[(We'll never know about using the bridge for double stacks.)
You never know. NYC fought for competing rail carriers to serve the city when Conrail broke up, but all of New England was left with one carrier. And, the Berkshire tunnels block access for double stacks.
Both CSX and Norfolk Southern have tracks in the area. Maybe the one of them that doesn't have New England will want to run trains over th bridge, and onto Hartford, from which all of New England can be served by truck without dealing with the NY Metro Area or I-95.]
Don't expect to see double stacks or anything else on the Poughkeepsie Bridge. As noted elsewhere, much of the right of way on the western side of the Hudson has been lost. And if there's one lesson that almost always holds true, it's that a right of way, once lost, is gone forever.
BTW - I believe that double stacks from Selkirk can operate through the Berkshires, as far east as Worcester. Massachusetts has proposed increasing clearances to allow them to operate into Boston, but as far as I know nothing's happened. I'm not sure if double stacks can operate south of Springfield into Connecticut.
Dan L, Thanks for the flyers. They arrived in the mail yesterday. We will be in touch before we attempt a trip to the museum.-----Karl B
I would like to know if there are plans to ever restore 6th Av/Broadway-Brooklyn service, if so, what line will it run along in Brooklyn & what year will it be restored. Please post on subtalk.
Thanks,
Michael
No. Most J/M/Z riders still go downtown, so pulling one of them isnt a great option. Adding a new service would require a lot of new cars that dont exist (and arent on order). Also, post 63rd st, this would mean 8 car trains going out to Queens Blvd, which might or might not work.
Do most JMZ riders go downtown? Alot do change at Essex, creating a dangerous situation on the platform. Many from the area take the L and pour on to the crossing lines to midtown. AND many people, such as my wife go to Bway-Nassau only to catch an uptown A. (I like to take the F, to W4th for the A or D, but she doesn't like changing that much, so she goes out of the way. Some, including a friend go to Canal or Chambers for the uptown IRT.
It's ridiculous not having direct midtown service. These are the only lines beside the G (which has no direct connection).
And on weekends, how many people go down to Wall St.? (This seems to justify not having the M come to Manhattan at all.) Alot do still change at Essex, or along 14th St.
Another idea I mentioned years ago was sending trains up 8th Av. if there is nowhere to send them on 6th Av.
I sure hope you all are still "reviewing and considering" this, like it says on the letter from you, Mr Wilsn and Mr Gawkowski I just got.
An extension of the L to midtown would make for direct service there. Why hasn't this been considered in recent years? Connecting the old NYC freight el that runs on the west side of 10th Avenue to the L train might help, if there are so many people changing to the lines that cross the L. The L should be a main line train in Manhattan. Maybe it can be combined with the 7 train (IRT size cars would be used and would continue on to Canarsie) for direct service to the Grand Central area and Times Square.
I had thought of the idea of connecting the L and 7, but in this case, I was talking about stuff they can do now without construction.
At the very least, punch out the deadhead tunnel wall and extend
the "L" train up 10th Avenue, with stations at 19th, 26th, 34th, then
turning east on 42nd to a station at Times Square, and the attendant connections. That's a long-range project.
Speaking of the "L" - what is happening with the station rehab at 14th Street-8th Avenue. It seems to have stopped dead in its tracks. I'd have thought I would see survey marks or laths or studs on the IND station walls by now...also what, if any, are the plans for the "L" station (aside from retiling some of the pillars and stairway backs)-
are they going to leave the IND tile or create a new "Canarsie Frieze" there (THAT would be very nice, indeed).
Wayne
(Most people go downtown). There are three jobs north of the Williamsburg Bridge for every one to the south. It would be a coincidence indeed if most people on the J/M/Z adjusted their job locations to their work to the extent that most people go downtown.
Perhaps when they add the second Queens Blvd/6th Avenue local service via 63rd St, they can run it out over the J/Z. Two third uptown, one third downtown, is about right.
But like Peter said, they don't want to send 8 car trains through the 63rd St connection. That would be a a waste. Unless your talking about weekends. We could use midotown service on weekdays, of course, but it's on weekends where alomost no one goes downtown, people do more recreation in midtown, and the M has nowhere tt go, so it is just reduced to a shuttle.
How about this? When 63rd St. opens, instead of creating a new V train, send the B through it and run it local to Forest Hills, keep the F where it is and bring back the K from 145th St./St. Nicholas (Concourse local during rush hours) and run it down 6th Ave. and then out across the Williamsbugh to Jamaica Center. You could eliminate the Z and use the J/K as skip stop service during rush hour between Jamaica and East New York.
Would be great except that CPW (which is a great match ridership/train length wise with the eastern division) connects with the 6Av express tracks only, and they go over the Manhattan Bridge--Williamsbg Bridge connects only with the local. Crossing trains over between the two on the slow switches at w4 or 34 would cost too much capacity.
Well, how about keeping the B as is and running the K through the 63rd St. tunnel to Continental -- I know that's not quite the "Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center" people were coming up with on the board a few months ago, but that way the K could stay local from B'way-Lafayette to 47th-50th, while the B stays express.
But that would just recreate the problem he mentioned, of sending the shorter trains to the busy Queens line. But if you send the K up 8th Av from W 4th (you make the 2 switches from Essex to Bway-Laf, then to W4th St upper level--all on the local track), then there would be no problem
OK, here's one for you - can't they modify the switches that lead to the Broadway-Lafayette==Essex Street connection (the "KK" connector) so that the 6th Ave Express tracks can feed into them. You shouldn't need that much new track unless the curtain walls are in the way.
NB: This is just a theory, doesn't take into acct. physics
Wayne
Northbound, you probably could do that, because the BJ track comes up in between the Exp and local tracks, and I believe there is space with no columns where a switch could easily be added. It's the OTHER direction where the problem lies. BJ1 branches off of the local track going left, so to get from the express, you would have to cross over the local track.
Northbound, you probably could do that, because the BJ track comes up in between the Exp and local tracks, and I believe there is space with no columns where a switch could easily be added. It's the OTHER direction where the problem lies. BJ1 branches off of the local track going to the RIGHT, so to get from the express, you would have to cross over the local track.
Oh, pooh - a grade crossing situation. That would mean a switch from exp to local BEFORE B'way-Lafayette. How far down the way does the outbound switchoff occur? Is there room for a one-way switch from exp to loc tracks before the switchoff?
Wayne
When did the switches from CPW only go to the 6th ave exp. tracks? Aren't they supposed to split between express and local just north of Rockefeller center? If that hasn't changed, it should be a relatively simple matter to run K trains from CPW to Bway-Bklyn.
No question that a lot of people do go uptown, and that Essex/Delancey is a mess. We are working to make sure that the rehab of this station improves the passenger flow there as much as possible.
This doesnt negate the fact that 1) there are train capacity issues on 6th Avenue, particularly on weekends due to the need to regularly reroute trains onto one track; 2) there would be huge costs to starting up a new service from scratch. These would be lessened or eliminated if one of the existing services were rerouted, but this would appear to more people than it helped.
Connecting the J/M/Z line into a new 2nd Ave. Line was proposed years ago and probably would be the best way to give J/M riders direct midtown access. According to that plan the Williamsburgh Bridge tracks would feed into the 2nd Ave. express and the Nassau St. Local tracks coming up from Broad St. would feed into the 2nd Ave. local. Of course I'll be a grandfather before this plan is ever built.
One way to ease congestion at Essex/Delancy is to build a direct connection between the Bowery staton and the Grand St. Station, giving people another way to access 6th Ave.
Heck, I AM a grandfather! And I do dream of seeing Second Avenue service sometime before I go to that great trolley barn in the sky.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since what has been posted concerning Second Avenue, don't count on it.
I would have loved to see the connection between Bowery and Grand, but they didn't want to do it. This would have also helped the Grand St entrance problem (they're just building another stairway instead), made Bowery safer with more people, and eliminated need for a shuttle to Bway-Laf when the Manhattan Bridge closes.
That's something that's bothered me. Where exactly was the bottleneck at Grand Street, the stairs to the streets or to the platform? I thought it would have helped the situation more to carve out a new set of stairs to the platform (opposite the current set) in addition to the current work.
The other night around 11PM I was waiting for a downtown N or R train in the 34th St. station. The station was relatively empty and very quiet. I noticed that every now and then I'd hear a sound that sounded like an elctric piano and then a very high pitched sort of white noise. I kept looking around for the source and finally I noticed this thing hanging in the center of the platform on the local track side. It looked like green A/C duct work with vents and several plastic things on the side. then I looked around and noticed that there was a board hanging directly across the platform near the express side that had reflectors on it. Each reflector was directly in line with the plastic things of the other object. I deduced that there must be some sort of sensor there for something or another and tryed stick my hand between the plastic thing and the reflector and sure enough I heard the tone again. I tried the same thing on each plastic thing (which must have been a lens) and each one produced a different tone (with different types of noise following it). I noticed that the same thing was present on the uptown platform too (and several kids over there saw/heard what I was doing and tryed the same thing). Now my question is this: Is it just public interactive art or does it serve some purpose (I was thinking maybe pest control with high-freq. sound)? Does anyone know?
Mike
It's a piece of art. It's fun to play with. You can play tunes if you're real good. there was a plaque explaining it somewhere down there. I personnaly think it's way cool. It's like a lot of the cool stuff in NYC - you have to 'discover' it. Sure beats that silly clock in Penn station (can anyone here even read that thing - I've never been able to....)
I've never seen this art at 34th, but it sounds a bit like the stuff they've got up in Boston at the M.I.T. Red Line stop. The students (I assume) created musical devices which hang between the tracks.
There are two rows of chimes, each controlled by a swinging lever with one lever on each platform. Swinging the lever will swing hammers into the chimes, and you can clang to your heart's delight. (You don't necessarily need to use the lever; a train rushing into the station will easily start the hammers up for you.)
There is also a solid iron ring with a hammer. People on either platform can pump the same hammer with a handle. Each pump brings it higher on a gear, until finally at its highest point the hammer releases and drops on the gong. (I think it was an F sharp, not sure though.)
I can't remember what the third device was, but it was nothing like what you saw at 34th.
The musical "art" referred to at the Kendall/MIT station of the Red Line in Boston was not designed by MIT students; rather, by an artist (I believe his name was Matisse, and related to the painter by the same name) under agreement with the MBTA. Much of the time, unfortunately, the cables operating the equipment are broken so the "art won't play."
David Pirmann, Thanks for posting my photographs of the oldest substation in operation on NYCT, Substation 21.
David: Thanks for contributing them! I'm sorry it took so long to get it going. For everyone who hasn't seen them, David sent in a set of photos of the IRT Substation #21 in Brooklyn: http://www.nycsubway.org/sub21/
Enjoy!
Dave
[David: Thanks for contributing them! I'm sorry it took so long to get it going. For everyone who hasn't seen them, David sent in a set of photos of the IRT Substation #21 in Brooklyn]
Isn't it this substation that's disguised as an ordinary residence, in order to keep its Brooklyn Heights neighbors happy?
Very nice addition to the site. Thanks to David Rosenthall for the foresight.
I remember Baltimore Transit's Broadway Substation on Harford Road north of Broadway. 3 rotary converters that fed the East side of the 13-North Avenue; the 15-Belair Road; the 19-Harford Road; the 17-Gorsuch Ave.; the 8-Greenmount Ave; the 21-Preston St. and the 27-Federal St. By 1963 only the 8 & 15 were still working, and it was wonderful to stand inside or pass by and hear that whine.
Thank you for the complement.
Wow. Those are cool pictures! Questions:
1 - This substation is in use, right? But it looks like the rotary converters are off in the pictures (unless you have very fast film). Why weren't they running while you were visiting?
2 - How much of NYCT is still run by rotary converters? Is there a move to convert to solid state equipment? (Gasp!)
It would be really cool if this old equipment could get a home in a museum or some such when its retired - it looks to be in beautiful shape. And its so old, there are probably no PCBs in it!
While I did not visit substation 21 I did visit the one across the street from the Prospect park Station on the D. That one was converted to solid state and the rotary converters were left in place. It was explained that the city has to convert because the NYS Power Authority will be charging more for the subway's special power needs(25 hz).
The use of 25 cycle for traction power via rotary converters and signaling needs to be brought to an end. Con Edison will eventually stop this practice of supplying 25 cycle to NYCT when all the rotaries are gone. I believe that at Substation #21, one rotary is placed on line today to supplement the load during the rush hours.
Of course 25 cycle is still used for signals on certain lines of the BMT today and electronic frequency converters are used to feed the AC signal mains.
There was a signal failure about 5 years ago mid-day which affected
most of the BMT and Contract-I IRT in Manhattan. ConEd had, at
the time, two 25 cycle generators. One had been down for maintenance,
and then the other failed. Service was out for hours. I was
lucky enough to have been in the 5 Ave BMT station, southbound, when
I heard brakes in emergency. The northbound train had just started
out when power failed and was tripped as an arm came up under the
train. I looked around and saw dark signals and walked over to
59 & LEX on the IRT. Announcements being made there about no
service. So I walked down to 51 St and continued my voyage on
the IND, which was unaffected.
The use of 25 cycle for traction power via rotary converters and signaling needs to be brought to an end. Con Edison will eventually stop this practice of supplying 25 cycle to NYCT when all the rotaries are gone. I believe that at Substation #21, one rotary is placed on line today to supplement the load during the rush hours.
When I visited Substation #21 in October of 1996, the rotary converters were off-line. They turned two of them on while I was there for the PM rush hour. One of them was the 1902 rotary numbered 8. I watched and video taped the startup and sychronizing of the rotaries and watched them being placed on line to feed the third rail sections. At the time I video taped everything.
You asked about the photography. I used Fuji 100 ASA film with a Vivitar 283 strobe to do all the photography. Photo sub21-05,jpg of the AC brush arms shows the the armature turning if you look closely.
I believe some of the rotaries will remain after the solid state rectifiers are placed on-line.
To all Metrocard Mavens: Does anyone know how the lockout on the unlimited cards works,exactly? For instance, I find that no matter at what time I use the card, the reader will clear it at either :12, :30, 48:,or :06 past the hour. That is to say, in as few as 12 min., or as much as 18 min. How does this work? On what does this depend. Please respond. My curiosity is overwhelming. Thanks.
The card stores the past two transactions & is SUPPOSE to lockout reuse for 18 minutes on all "time" based cards. The TA said they were going to modify this so that the restriction/lockout only effected the customer within the same station/bus.
"Value" cards will tollerate four fares at once & permit four transfers.
The s/n on the card can be "negitive listed" so that it will reject once all the depots/stations get a download of the revised list.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or NYC-DOT
Mr t__:^)
Was just wondering...does anyone know what the current NYCTA Operations and Planning plan is for service for when the 63rd St. tunnel finally opens?
I think this is a FAQ that has no answer yet.
Read down the list for various comments and opinions.
-Dave
In response to the DN's article last month about freezing subway cars, Phantom Rider and Jack Leary, SEPTA's GM, took a ride.
Leary promised that all 125 K cars would be repaired to provide passengers with more heat.
You can follow through to the Daily News link at phillynews.com.
A mechanic found out that he could adjust the voltage in the heater.
This raised the temp in the car from 59 degrees to 65 . Jack Leary thought all new heating systems had to retrofitted on each BSS car, at a very large cost! The mechanic used a screwdriver and fixed the problem in 10 minutes!
Chuck Greene
Well, sure, now that summer is coming, they've GOT to make sure the heat works.
-Hank :)
I was reading through an issueof "National Geographic" from 1992 about Boston.
In it, they mentioned America's oldest subway and the MBTA.
Now they said it stands for "Metropolitan Boston Transportation Authority". But I have a map that says "Massachussetts Bay Transportation Authority".
What's up?
It's Massachusetts Bay Transporation Authority. Click there to see their Web site.
I thought they got it wrong. Thanks.
Here in Boston at lunchtime today, I had to walk from Downtown Crossing (Macy's) back to my office on Beacon Street. Being an extremely cold, windy day [you knew I'd get a weather mention in here], I decided to use the "Winter Street Concourse" over to the Park Street station, then through that station to the exit closest to my destination. That made about half the walk underground, though through fare-controlled area (I used my monthly unlimited pass). While walking through the concourse, I thought back to our thread of last week, suggesting that NYCT consider reopening the Herald Square to 7th Avenue corridor (and others) by restricting their use at night, and having them within fare control. The idea being these two restrictions would keep the unwanted population down, and give NYCT an opportunity to clean them.
I looked carefully at the corridor while walking through it today, and noted that it was very clean, well lit, and well used. I think SubTalkers have a good idea here that should be seriously considered by NYCT as a very useful transit improvement that would cost a lot less than building a yard of the Second Avenue Subway!
I'm a big fan of what I saw in Montreal. Unfortunately, to open up passegeways effectively you'd have to have police, transit, and perhaps other agencies involved. The idea therefore runs afoul of the more than one agency rule. If something involves more than one agency, it can't be accomplished unless its the Mayor's idea and he threatens to fire anyone who gets in the way, or a private party's idea who gives lots and lots of money to lots and lots of politicos.
If they were a bit more progressive, perhaps the Real Estate Board and the RPA could come up with something. Property owners could fund the passageways, and collect rent on the retail underground.
Here's another funding idea for SubTerrainian Passageways:
Many subway cars now have "single advertizers," where the one organization takes every available position.
How about commercial sponsors for the passageways? One can imagine Reebok supporting a passageway, with "Wear our sneakers to speed your commute...", or Wheeties with "The breakfast of champion commuters," or (hehehehe) Lysol, with "Buy some, spray here!"
Hey, if a football stadium can do it, why not a corridor?
Why not have those instead of desecrating an R-32 with a full car-banner ad for "Zoe, Duncan, Jack and Jane".
NYC is the only subway system that I've seen(Philly, NYC, Baltimore, DC)
with full ad strips along the top of the interior for just one product. there were cars for SubTalks(not ours-the MTA kind), the afforementioned TV show, and for the School of Visual Art I believe on the #6.
How long has that been in practice?
And don't forget the ever-present "Dr. Zit". He has half the ad space on the IRT for his plastic surgery blurbs.
And don't forget the ever-present "Dr. Zit". He has half the ad space on the IRT for his plastic surgery blurbs. LOL.
We have whole cars here in Philly advertising Tide w/ Bleach on both the BSS and the MFL. They're very disturbing, IMHO. On old MFL cars with ad strips along the top, they all say things like "Doesn't it feel great to be covered in germs?" and "The seat you're sitting on is probably giving you a disease." Those aren't exact quotes, but that's the rough idea.
The first time I saw them, I thought some sicko millionare had paid for them - there is no product name or logo anywhere near the ads. I thought some weirdo was trying to create paranoia or something. Then as I was leaving the train, I saw the lone matching ad on the wall at the very end of the car with the Tide logo...
The ones that make me squirm are the Captain Morgan ones that say "Get Spicey"...I don't drink ANYTHING so seeing that I just have to look the other way. And it's Dr. ZIZMOR...him I don't mind. The ones with the poems (I Am Rose My Eyes Are Blue...) are nice too.
Wayne
I think that 'Poetry in Motion' placards are the absolut (pun intended) best thing to hit the subway. As for the liquor, I don't make my drink choices upon ads, I mooch off my freinds :)
-Hank
And let's not forget the ongoing saga of Julio and Marisol. Admittedly, it's sort of bogged down lately; the last few episodes have been rather dull, but I'm holding out hope that it'll get interesting again.
And then there's Decision XI - you should see the surprised look on the face of the one guy at the mention of "Esteban".
Wayne
I'm waiting to see what happens next. I can't believe that little series has been going since I was in High School...
-Hank
It seems like the last few installments in Julio & Marisol have been slow in coming. I'd hate to see the series just stop without a true resolution.
For those who can't get enough, a picture of the lovely Marisol is available at:
http://nycdoitt.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/doh/html/public/press/pr27-997.html
Sorry, I don't have the tech ability to put the picture directly onto Subtalk.
What I like are the places SEPTA workers put some ads.
Have you seen the one for the Yellow Pages that says "That wasn't the subway rumbling-it was your stomach".
I saw this on the R7 and the 21, 2 and 23 buses-but never the subway or the el!
And what about those buses that are ENTIRELY covered on the exterior with a thin plastic ad forSprite or the Atlantic 10?
Expect to see Coke ads coming to a third rail near you:)
It's all about money and doesn't hurt the bus/car. Hay, if it keeps the fare down I can live with. Maybe they'll even put a little of it aside for some raises :-)
Mr t__:^)
Apple Computer has some MBTA buses covered with a cluster of the new multicolor iMACs, and their "Think Different" motto. Streetcars have been done too but no subway cars yet! We refer to it as shrink-wrap in Boston. Covers everything - including the windows (Windshield excepted). You can still see out.
Now an eight car R-46 train with a message running the full length of the train - that would be impressive. Especially driving underneath an island platform el station while the 600 foot ad is stopped above. It would work with any 75 foot car, or an R-40M or R-42. Slants would have too many large gaps, while the fluted sides on an R-32 or R-38 would be difficult to work with.
The very first one was Fruitopia. So whenever that had first come out. Early to mid-90's
I remember back in the mid-70s when I took the BUS to High School. For several months, the interiors of entire buses would be covered in ads for Greenwood Red Cabbage and the different ways it could be applied to your favorite foods. I would see this at 7:30 a.m. Yum, yum!
Greenwood (111th Street) red cabbage! That stuff goes great with my homemade Sauerbraten. Seriously, some of these ads (esp. the ones with the darker backgrounds) have a way of dimming the interior light on some cars, especially noticeable on the R38 cars, to a lesser extent on the 44/46/62/68s. Do they still run the ones with the zebra-striped Slant R40s? Haven't seen one of those in a while.
Wayne
That was Modell's. Maybe their contract ran out. There's a new one for KISS-FM, showing the old and new performers they play. Kind of like the one for CD-101, which also isn't around anymore
I'm 99% sure that the 'Zebra Stripe' ads were for Footlocker.
-Hank
I was thinking that, but wasn't sure. I get those two mixed up.
(If a stadium can do it, why not a passageway).
Surely you're not suggesting having the conductors announce "This ride on the Chase Line (under 2nd Avenue) is brought to you by Chase. Invest with us, and it ten years you'll be up there in a cab."
It would only work if the traffic reporters agreed to say "The Chase Line is on schedule again today" rather than just reporting the delays.
Last week I mentioned adding moving sidewalks to many of these dormant passageways. I travel through San Francisco International on United Shuttle many times a month and one of the nice features of the North Terminal at SFO is the San Francisco Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame, which has its various monuments located throughout the terminal. Also the main aracde linking the "F" concourse and the curbside area features rotating modern art and technology exhibits along the main corridor which is flanked by moving walkways. Coupled with a coroporate sponsor, various exhibits which may otherwise be "homeless" could be a nice addition to New York's underground. Currently at SFO, the BASHOF (Sports Hall of Fame) is a Hall without a Hall, United pays for the upkeep of the exhibits which are also loaned to schools and other sports venues throughout the Bay Area. Kids love exhibits and I have often been asked by inbound passengers to SFO what is on display during a given month.
It's worth a try
How about the Grand Central Partnership BID and the Herald Square BID taking this on as a project to enhance both their areas? These BIDs, along with the Times Square BID, have made fantastic improvements above ground, what with hiring security, cleaners, publicity, special street lighting, etc.
Small shops could be along the corridor, providing activity and therefore a feeling of security. Business people who can't afford the rental rates in the new Grand Central marketplace might be inclined to operate in the passageway. The trick is to have "normal" activities going on in an area to encourage people to frequent those areas. Close the passage overnight and enforce a policy of no loitering, simular to that at the Port Authority Bus Terminal, to keep out the skells.
One of my little peeves is to see a long section of subway without a station for a legitamite reason(to me).
Case in point, the Northern Blvd. arm of what becomes the Queens Blvd.line.
Why is there no station at this particular span( say at 24 Ave) when it seems possible to put one there(i.e. headways, station use, proximity)
It sounds like you're referring to the stretch between 36th Street and 65th Street stations. Between these two stations the express tracks (E & F) actually take a more direct route (over the third leg of a triangle, if you will) than the local tracks. Going towards Jackson Hghts the express tracks continue along Northern Blvd. after the 36th Street station, then they turn right at Broadway at which point it re-joins the local tracks a bit west of the 65th Street station.
Wayne
And this sounds like a pretty long distance(29 blocks, though if my Queens geography is anything, that probably adds up to about a midtown disatance of 180 feet:))
Could there ever have been a station along this stretch? Seems like a waste unless it's for reasons of time(I don't use the line, so I wouldn't know).
It is an express run. The stations are on the local track under Broadway, one to four blocks away.
The legimate reason is that the particular section of track you refer to was built solely as an express track. The local tracks were built with a more indirect routing and 3 stations. Since the actual seperation between express and local tracks is a matter of blocks, what benifit would a redundent station serve other than to slow the railroad down.
If you did put a station there, people using some of the local stops would probably abandon those and go try and catch the E or F. Considering how packed they are at rush hour already, I don't think the MTA would even think about adding another station to the line.
I wanted to know if this has happened to anyone else.
When I was in town last week I rode the shuttle into Times Square.
I exited from the door closest to the front on the first car and I had to step over the gap!
I missed the filler by a half a foot.
Isn't it supposed to be right at the door?
[When I was in town last week I rode the shuttle into Times Square.
I exited from the door closest to the front on the first car and I had to step over the gap!
I missed the filler by a half a foot.
Isn't it supposed to be right at the door?]
No, the gap fillers at the Times Square Shuttle station aren't right at platform level, as they are at Union Square on the IRT. As you noted, they are several inches lower. I presume that someone who fails to mind the gap will be protected from serious injury but not from a sprained ankle.
BTW - at the Flatbush Avenue LIRR terminal, particularly on Track One, there are gaps nearly a foot wide with *no* gap fillers at all. A child or small adult could fall right through to track level.
Just thinking that with the upcoming total overhaul of the Times Square and Grand Central subway stations, the shuttle may vgery well need be made ADA-Compliant. This, of course, will require some serious work on the TSQ end to eliminate the gaps entirely.
-Hank
Probably the easiest thing to do would be to extend the shuttle platforms eastward so as to eliminate the need for the curved segment, assuming it's feasible. As I recall, this sort of thing was done at Brooklyn Bridge and DeKalb Ave.
Looking thorugh, the London subway seems to have struck me. Can anyone give me some technical information(platform/car lengths) and all the stuff about the fourth rail.
Platform/Car lengths for London Underground stock:
Tube stock(prior to 1973) 52 ft approx per car
Tube stock 1973 53 ft approx
Surface Stock 53 ft approx
Surface "D" stock 60 ft approx
Normal train formation is:
Bakerloo Line 7 car (4 car + 3 CAR)
Northern Line 7 car (as above) or 6 car (2 x 3 car NEW 1995 stock)
Jubilee Line 6 car ( 2 x 3 car)
Piccadilly Line 6 car (2 x 3 car)
Metropolitan Line 8 car(2 x 4 car)
District Line 6 car ( 2 x 3 car)
Circle, Hammersmith & City Lines 6 car ( 3 x 2 car)
Central line 6 car ( 3 x 2 car)
Victoria Line 8 car (2 x 4 car)
Waterloo 7 city line 4 car ( 2 x 2 car)
.
Odd ones out are:
East London Line 4 car (1 x 4 car)
Chesham-Chalfont shuttle.Metropolitan Line 4 car (1 x 4 car)
.
Traction supply is 630 Volts DC
and is supplied at 420 volts to possitive 3rd rail & 210 volts to 4th rail (negative) which runs centrally inside the two running rails.
Hope this helps !!!!!
Regards
Rob :^)
Why was the fourth rail system employed? Is there any advantage to it?
It was applied on Board of Trade requirements to avoid leakage of return current interfering with other electrical systems near the tube line. This was, I understand, on the 'Twopenny tube', now the Central Line, opened in 1900.
Maybe this was due to London being located on basically a clay sub-structure other than rock, as is NY, etc.
Has anybody seen this method used in any other transit systems? I have not.
The book I have states the four rail system was firstused on the Metropolitan. I will seek further reference from the LT Museuem and advise accordingly.
Jack, the information I have is that the outer rail carries 650 volt positive and the inner rail is the return. This system was employed by the Metropolitan in response to legislation about corrosion in adjacent pipes and structures due to earth leakage if the return was run through the running rails. It was adopted by the rest of Londons underground railways. The main advantage is that you can still have conventionl track circuit signalling. The IRT ran into problems as is mentioned in the book detailing its contruction.
Hi. I am a writer who is writng a novel that takes place in the NYC Subway. In the story one of the subway cars must be seperated from the others. Is this plausible? How is it done if it is?
I also have many other questions if anyone is intimate with the ways subway cars and conductors operate.
Please. I need your help.
Thnaks
--edward
At the north end of the southbound platform at the fourth ave station
on the culver line there are two pieces of what looks like running
rails embedded into the end of the platform. What are or were they
used for? Were they original?.
can anyone tell me about the fourth ave platform? werer are the experts?
Well, it happened again. A fifth slashing on the subways. This time it was not your garden variety street thugs. This time it was not a random act of insanity. This time it was 3 Good Kids from one of NY's performing Arts high Schools who decided to take a feud into the subways. Art imitating life? One thing is for sure. The Mayor and Police Commissioner must now act decisively and greatly increase uniformed police presence on trains to stem the copy-cat mentality that's sweeping the city.
[Well, it happened again. A fifth slashing on the subways. This time it was not your garden variety street thugs. This time it was not a random act of insanity. This time it was 3 Good Kids from one of NY's performing Arts high Schools who decided to take a feud into the subways.]
Good kids? I suspect not. Skells of the future is more like it.
My father-in-law says kids were just as rotten in Brooklyn 50 years ago, but they didn't have guns, so you just got beat up. They took away the guns, so you have razors. If we can take away the razors, we can beat it back to fists. I think that's about all you can do.
I saw a couple of teen-aged girls pounding each other, with a crowd cheering them on, just the other day. They both walked away. That's about as big a victory in the war on crime as we're likely to get.
BTW, when my kids are older, I intend to encourage them NOT to ride the subway or bus from 3:00 to 4:00 p.m. They should head to library and do their homework, then head home with the adults.
The slashing incidents sound like the "broken window" theory the former police chief, Ray Kelley, touted in his book on the drop in N.Y.C. crime -- the little things like broken windows, or little crimes breed bigger crimes if nothing is done about them. I know Rudy axed Kelley because he wanted to take full credit for the drop in crime, but if he really wants to run for Senate, he better jump on this quickly, or there will be a lot of stories in the near future about the city's crime rate going back up.
(Broken window effect.) I think sometimes you just get the media on these things. It's a big city, and a big metro area, so something bad happens every day. Now they've decided slashings are a story, so for a few weeks everything that seems like a slashing ("In yet another incident, man cuts himself shaving") will get big play.
Meanwhile, somewhere in the suburbs, some woman is being carjacked, and it is being ignored. Until one particular incident gets play, then it will be "5th Mall Carjacking and counting."
Then there was the syringe-in-a-Diet-Pepsi copycat story, which turned out to be planted. It sounds like an example of a story being blown out of proportion.
[The slashing incidents sound like the "broken window" theory the former police chief, Ray Kelley, touted in his book on the drop in N.Y.C. crime -- the little things like broken windows, or little crimes breed bigger crimes if nothing is done about them. I know Rudy axed Kelley because he wanted to take full credit for the drop in crime, but if he really wants to run for Senate, he better jump on this quickly, or there will be a lot of stories in the near future about the city's crime rate going back up]
I agree with you. It cannot be assumed that the recent drop in crime necessarily will be permanent. We have not seen a whole generation of criminals eliminated, nothing like that. My fear is that just a little complacency will lead to crime rates increasing once again.
It's too early to tell if the crime rate reduction is permanent. It will depend solely on whoever the next mayor is, and on whoever he/she appoints as police commisioner.
(Too early to tell if the crime reduction is permanent). I think you have to credit three things:
1) Many of the crimes were committed by a few people, who are now off the street. Many killed each other. I think the reason the period after WWII was so peaceful is that all the wild and violent guys charged ahead and were shot down. The 1985 to 1995 decade was the equivalent of a war.
2) There were so many crimes it was like a riot -- you couldn't catch and jail everyone, so people felt free to do things they otherwise would not. Crimes like auto theft were de-criminalized.
3) Values have changed in poor communities. People saw how the crack and violence wave affected them, and have changed.
Finally, I don't know that Mayoral policies will make much of a difference. Certain expectations have been established. What is more likely it that more and more jail time will be put in place for minor offenses, to keep the prisons filled and the guards employed. Anyone for getting tough on white collar criminals, with manditory hard time?
Do you really think that it's just that simple? Crime is more than a social issue. It has also become a huge political issue. There are certain neo-political/religeos groups that are seeking to dismantle the NYPD or at least make it impotent. Just remember what crime in the subways was like before the current mayor took office. What will happen to the crime rate in the near future is up to all the people of good will in this city. The nay-sayers who equate the drop in crime with the establishment of a police state must be publicly rebuked - and loudly.
According to:
The Phillidelphia Inquierer, New Jersey Transit is joining the double decker crowd. They are proposing to get 200 of them, along with 40 (!) new locos, and 200 single level cars...This to ease crowding into Penn Station. The plan will be presented this Wedsday. Apparently, they feel such cars can fit into Penn (though how sucessfully remains to be seen). I'm assuming that the 40 new locos would be either electric, or diesel, or a split. Oh yeah, and they want another 17 locos after that. I'd like to know the breakdown, though if it's mostly electric (as I'd suspect - didn't they just replace all their diesels?), this would put them ahead of Amtrak in terms of electric ownership I think. Anyway - there's one thing for certain - the Arrow cars are going to be an endangered specis if this plan happens. Also, I wonder if any dual modes are in there, or any plans to extend NJT's electric lines - aren't they tieing the Hoboken division into Penn station? Also, that line '12,000 new riders expected to come on board as NJ Transit expands service during the next five years.' Sounds interesting. Anyone care to guess?
(Big transit plans for NJ). Sounds like New Jersey has figured out where its economic vitality comes from, and how to suck out more of it, leaving the city with less. How about the East Side of the River?
> (as I'd suspect - didn't they just replace all their diesels?)
NJ Transit hasn't bought a new diesel locomotive. Ever, that I can think of. I'm pretty sure all the existing ones are inherited from the predecessor railroads, purchased during the Conrail era, or purchased used since then. I think the breakdown was mostly electric for the Montclair & Morris-Essex Midtown Direct Service, and also to replace the remaining Arrow-class MU's on the Northeast Corridor. The diesels would end up serving the Raritan and ex-Erie Hoboken division services. I don't see them expanding electrification although it would allow them to have a unified fleet of Comet coaches and ALP-44 locomotives in the long run.
NJ Transit bought new F40s, similiar to Amtrak's, around 1981. These are often on the Raritan Valley line.
The only expansion of electrification I know of is from the future Montclair connection to Great Notch on the Boonton Line. Otherwise, the Hoboken Division is not going to be tied into Penn Station until (if ever) the capacity under the Hudson is increased. Hoboken Division passengers will be able to transfer to the Northeast Corridor at a new Secaucus station by 2002.
I have another question on this topic:Does NJT know for sure that double-deckers will clear all the overpasses?
When we ran the story on WCBS Newsradio-88 last Saturday, we quoted NJT as saying that the double-deckers would have to be custom designed just for that reason - to clear overpasses and tunnels on their system. It seems that no existing double-decker design will work!
Amtrak already runs some double decker sleepers and they use the Northeast corridor- wouldn't these work because people need headroom to get into a sleeper berth?
Amtrak's double-decker cars (the Superliners) run only to Washington, DC, although they successfully ran one from the west into Philadelphia once. They don't ever run on the Boston-NY-DC Northeast Corridor for clearance reasons.
Amtrak does run single-level Viewliner sleepers, which have upper and lower berths in the rooms, but these have the same profile as normal single-level coaches.
Speaking of NJ transit news..just exactly WHEN is the light rail connector start its first leg? And what is going to be the first leg opened??
The first segment of new light rail will open around March, 2000. This will run from Exchange Place in Jersey City to 34th Street in Bayonne, with a branch through Jersey City to West Side Avenue. In the following year the line should be open north to the Newport Center Mall and Hoboken Terminal.
Hi!
There's no question in my mind that the best place to ride as a passenger as a kid (and I confess at times as an adult) is to position yourself at the front car door , the handle side, by the motorman's cab and have a bird's eye view of the action.
The slant R-40's are great because of the long narrow windows, so even the shortest of kids could look out. I remember on the R-32's little kids would have to be held up by their parent to look out.
The other bonus is when the motorman would keep his door ajar about 5 inches with those door vices. Oh, to peer in and watch the action, did he get the indication light, calling command center on the radio, and did he sit or stand? Always liked a motorman who liked to stand. Hey, I had to stand to look out, so why not him too.
Some fun memories I have of this great location on the train are:
At the BMT Canal Street Manhattan Bridge level (the one that looks like it could be the set for A Short Walk To Daylight now), I was by the front window and the motorman overshot the line designation box for the signal tower. So he asked me to go out and push it for him.
It is so eerie to see that station now, if you've been there you know it looks like the aftermath to an earthquake. Plus try walking it at night to go from the 6 train to the BMT......it's deserted and creepy.
Another memory I have is a track fire along the on the West End. The dried out wood had caught fire in the summer on the express track in the middle and the motorman is trying to explain this to command center who mistakenly thought the motorman's train was on fire and told him to discharge at the next station.
Then of course the best were the really nice motorman who occasionally would open the door the whole way and let you "hang" right by the action. One let me hold down the throttle (with his help of course) just to see what it was like.
But most of the time as a younger kid, the handle on the front door of the R-32, 40 or 42 was my "pretend" throttle. Never forget the shock of going to the front car door, standing there, pulling on the handle to pretend to make the train go and
wahhh laaaah! The door wasn't locked and it just opened as the train was moving. So to quote the Apollo 13 line "Houston, we've got a problem", I knocked on the motorman's door and alerted him that the door wasn't locked.
Next station he comes out to lock it and I had my safety insured to pretend to drive the train.
The other annoyance was running up to the front car window to find an intruder had already staked claimed to your favorite spot and you had to look from the right side of the window. Once that other kid got off the train, that spot was quickly claimed by you.
Looking back on it now, as a kid, riding the front car window was probably one of those wonderful childhood experiences that you knew was special then and brings a smile to your face 10, 20 or 30 years later.
I see my kids play with Nintendos, computer software games and the like but if I had to choose as a kid, I'd much rather watch as the West End navigated that great switch track coming into 36th Street/4th Avenue Manhattan Bound....were you going up the local track or the express? You'd wait for the signal to change for your answer.
As far as I'm concerned, Super Mario Brothers was probably a pizzeria I never ate at and computers were those giant things you'd see in the Batcave on TV.
I don't live in NY anymore, but know that I need to get my son up there to experience the real video game of "helping" drive the train.
Always keep the wonderful memories and throw out the crummy ones.......
HK
When I was in NYC a week ago, I got an 'N' of Slant 40's out of Times Square to Cortlandt.
As soon as I saw the train, I ran as far as I could down the platform to the front(about 3 cars) and had to pass between the cars the rest of the way(boy, am I a sorry something or what?).
I did it A): to get good front-end photos(which I'll send in when I get them developed) and B): for a wonderful view shooting down Broadway. I did the same thing coming and going on the Queensbridge shuttle(R-32's).
My son said he felt like the only adult there.
Here in Philly, you can still do the same thing( if you get an M-3, you can put down the window and feel the breeze-but not for much longer, thanks to the M-4's).
When's the best time to catch an M3? I keep getting stuck with M4s. :(
Try the time just after rush hour(6pm and up).
Those are the only times I get'em. It's like going for the R-110B. Only the lucky get to see it.
Few things in the New York City subway compare to the view from the elongated railfan window of a Slant R40. It's also a treat for younger children who can watch from the front (along with their parents) if they're too short to see out of an R32, R38, or other car with similar windows.
We have one or two cars left with dropdown front windows - R26 cars with transplanted R22 storm doors. I think they're #7773 and #7821.
Wayne
The front window of the slant 40 is *by far* the best things about those cars - you get a view. Even if you're a big boy like me, it's nice because just have a nice big window to watch out of - I wish the LIRR and Metro-North MUs had windows that big :)
The (septa) M-3 window is a blast - litterally. Last time I was there with a friend, we rode the line up and down a few times just for the fun of it. You get not only a useful breeze, but you can wave to passing trains. It'll surely be missed.
My feelings exactly. My favorite memory is looking through the storm door window of the first car of an A train of R-10s on the express jaunt up Central Park West. Nothing but flat out speed. Coming in at a close second would be the same jaunt on a D train of R-1/9s (or any train of R-1/9s, for that matter) whose first car had no headlights. It seemed a bit eerie to not be able to see the track, with the only illumination provided by the tunnel lights. The I-beams between the tracks were reduced to nothing more than silhouettes. Throw in the traction motors singing out a resounding F# above middle C, and you'd have an unbeatable combination.
The R-32s always made any express run seem effortless, and still do today. I equate the R-32s with an express run along Broadway in Manhattan. They would streak past 23rd and 28th Sts. Even to this day, I still give the storm door handle a tug or two as the train is about to start moving, and got the same surprise you did once - whooops!. My sister was with me, and she gave me one of those dirty looks.
I remember encountering one or two BMT standards which had 2x4s jammed against the storm door handles to prevent them from opening.
Amtrak is holding a press conference at 1:00 pm today to disclose details about the new trainsets/service that will begin appearing on the northeast corridor in October. The AP story, as reported on WCBS Newsradio 88, calls it a "bullet train" with a secret name to be unveiled. (Prior publicity by Amtrak called it the "American Flyer; will they change that?)
Current New York Penn to Boston South Station service, which takes approximately five hours, will be reduced to three hours; NYP to WAS service will be reduced from about three hours to two-and-a-half. This will not be an inexpensive ride; fares on the high-speed train are reported to be more than $100 each way for NYP-BOS or WAS. This compares with $200 each way full fare for the air shuttles. Clearly, Amtrak is targeting the business crowd, by touting "business class seats," power ports, meal service, etc.
"American Flyer" was the name used by the builders to market the train to Amtrak, it was never intended to be the actual service name of the trains when running.
Considering the shuttle-like (i.e. HIGH) fares on the current Metroliners, and their relative success (more passengers than either air shuttle, I think), the new service should do well. And an all-electric Boston-NY-DC corridor should speed up the ride for all trains, even if they're not of the premium, tilting, business class variety. I'll miss standing on the platforms at New Haven watching them switch engines, but I won't miss the slower-than-a-bus ride from BOS to NYP.
They'll still have to do some engine changes at New Haven for the inland route to Springfield.
-Hank
Don't expect the "Fancy Name" trains anytime soon(saw it on the local evening news (WJZ in Baltimore announcing the new service). However, the local railroad rumor mill here is abuzz with the news that the first locomotive blew the electronics during testing in Colorado. The rumor is that it blew during voltage/frequency change tests. Supposedly, Bombardier doesn't know why, or how to fix it. The new equipment has to work on 11,000-12,500 25hz AC, as well as 25 KV 60hz New Haven to Boston, and make the changes on the fly.
Also, major wire changes have to be made on the PRR/NH sections, as EVERY bridge between New Haven and Washington Terminal has to have the wire profile reshaped for the higher speeds required to make the proposed schedules. With the current wire profiles, top allowable speed remains 125 MPH.
We await developments
At the press conference yesterday, it was announced by AMTRAK that the name for the new train will be "Acela" (pronounced us-SELL-uh). They said it was a word made up by a marketing firm to indicate swiftness. Whatchathink?
Well, if we can get used to AMTRAcK and FLeXIBLE, guess we can get used to ACELA, the name realy excels ... yuck :-(
Is there some reason they can't just call it "The Bullet"? Weren't the original Metroliners capable of doing the same 150 mph as the whatsis train? I had thought the problem had always been the track and catenary.(Or has my memory failed me?)
The origional Metroliners *were* capeable of 150. They were also amazingly unreliable, and quite a disaster. There were a few rebuilds of them, a number of different Pantagraph styles, they sprouted M-2 type roof bumps at some point, they ran under traction motor induced speed restrictions, one train seperated in two at speed.....
Yeah, they probably had catenary problems too....
But none went to the insurance capital of the world, just RDC Budds.
What goes there these days (one or two car train) ?
Mr t__:^)
I thought the speed limit NYP to WAS was at a max 125mph and that was only on two small portions of the route. North of NYP I thought the max was 79mph. I know they were elminiating some grade crossings but had to leave one or two draw bridges.
150MPH off an open draw bridge??
MAS (maximum allowable speed) varies through the line, based upon many factors (such as bridges, crossings, stations, curves, etc.).
[ North of NYP I thought the max was 79mph. I know they were
elminiating some grade crossings but had to leave one or two draw bridges.]
They were also "easing" a number of curves to bring the speed up, this is in addition to the tilting within the train set. I haven't read anything about what they are doing about swing/draw bridges (I can't put my hands on the article that said how many there are). Todd or someone else will probally confirm that they can bring the speed up once the cross the CT river, maybe after NH ... I thinking about the Providence to Boston portion.
Mr t__:^)
- I cannot quote numbers but I believe that the current Metroliners go 125 mph for a significant portion of the NY - DC journey. That is a pretty modern piece of RR.
- I have read on usenet that the MAS south of NY will remain 125 mph for a "while." Apparently the caternary is not of sufficient quality for 150 mph trains to maintain good contact down there. To get to this level of quality, they will apparently have to rebuild the caternary as "constant tension caternary," which uses weights and pulleys to tension the caternary instead of attaching it to heavily built hangars. All modern caternary is built this way, it is cheaper to build & maintain & better. But it is not on the plate right now to do it...Keep in mind that going from MAS 125 -> MAS 150 does not save hugh amounts of time. The new trains will still be faster, with faster acceleration (i'm guessing) and faster speed around some of the turns.
Keep in mind that I read that on the usenet, generally not the place to get information if it has to be right!
- as for the rumours about the train failing on power switches:
- have not heard this anywhere else, which is suspicious since this would be true rumour mill grist and there are a legion of folks out there that LOVE to report Amtrak failures.
- Even if true, hey, thats why you do tests. Could be a problem which is quickly fixable.
- There is an amtrak engineer who periodically posts on the usenet, asserting that Boston to NY will NEVER be three hours because Metro North will not let them run in tilt mode on the Metro North controlled tracks (territory between NYC and the NY/Conn border). Once again, I am skeptical about this naysayer....However, it seems that the NH - NY section will remain a tough section for a while. Its very curvy, it has ancient caternary, a lack of capacity, too many junctions without flyovers, and so on.
Really the main advantage of the new service will be Bos - NH, with NH - NY secondary and the advantages between NY - DC will mainly be the train's amenities. Hopefully the attention will also help get new ridership NY - DC. Hopefully 150 mph will not be too far off south of NY.
Regarding the name - well, I don't really like it, but I am glad Amtrak is not marketing this service to me or any of us railfans. We would ride it if they called it the vomit shuttle, or the new jersey crawler. A name which invokes a 40 year old toy train is not a good plan for this service - I would not call a start up air line the biplane express. Further, if amtrak is to be faulted for coming up with a goofy name, I guess they are running their railroad like a businesss, cause the private sector does this all the time. CSX? Chevy Caprice? These companies are making plenty of $$$ despite the goofy name. Meanwhile Amtrak is making lots of good press (there was a story in the Denver Post about it!!!).
Sorry for the horrendously long post.
I had a cab ride (*grin*) in the ABB-manufactured X-2000 demonstrator train from NYP to WAS many years ago; we were able to do 135 mph for brief stretches only under special, limited exemption from the normal maximum allowable speed of 125 mph.
[At the press conference yesterday, it was announced by AMTRAK that the name for the new train will be "Acela" (pronounced us-SELL-uh). They said it was a word made up by a marketing firm to indicate swiftness. Whatchathink?]
Sounds like a disease ...
Here's a link to the AMTRAK Acela press release.
I think Metroliner II would be better, given the wonderful start these things have already gotten ;)
But seriously, that's got to be the stupidest name in the world. i don't even want to know how much they paid that marketing firm to think it up. At least it beats 'American Flyer', which is not only corny sounding, it sugests images of a)flying (the competition) and b)a certain failed toy train company of the same name. And it beats 'American TGV', or 'American Bullet Train' by a longshot.
Anyone here got an idea for a name for these things? I bet we could come up with a few good ones....
Trendy marketing name of not, don't hold your breath. See my prior post on the reports from the Baltimore rail rumor mill. The supposed source for the rumor is a high-up in ATK engineering. I suspect that one or more of the industry mags will report the rumor as fact in a future (May-June) issue.
Based on your other post, and the article on the R-142s in Tuesday's New York Post, I think it's pretty clear Bombardier's ability to put wiring and electrionics into their rail cars is about on par with the Chrysler Corporation right before they went bankrupt in the late 1970s (I drove a rental New Yorker where when you stepped on the brake, the time on the digital clock changed).
Hopefully, neither Amtrak nor the MTA will accept delivery until the problems are fixed. Better to continue running with the old equipment to put the new stuff in service and have it immediately fall apart. (Plus if the Redbirds stay around a few more years it won't hurt my feelings)
What about "Atlantic Clipper." Naming this bullet train THE bullet train implies there will never be another. American Flyer implies the same thing.
I agree, ACELA sounds like a disease. It really infuriates me when consultants get contracts to do stupid things like this. It reminds me of a study the TA paid for a while back. The consultant announced that Brooklyn is a hotbed of subway ridership, accounting for one-third of the total, as if this were a surprise. (If you exclude Staten Island, which does not have a subway, it accounts for one-thrid of the city's population).
Wait a minute there, STATEN ISLAND has the Staten Island Railway, uses modified subway cars and falls under the New York City Transit on the MTA Web site. 20,000 riders I think.
I think Larry just GOT YOU.
He'll do most anything to start a debate :-)
Mr t__:^)
Whoa. The American Flyer name lives today. Lionel acquired the rights to the name after the A. C. Gilbert Company went out of business, and is manufacturing Flyer trains today. American Flyer can trace its roots back to 1907 and W. O. Coleman of Chicago. Gilbert took over Flyer in 1938. Gilbert's demise is a whole different story, which I won't get into here.
"Acela" - yuck is right. That has to be the worst name these marketing types have come up with yet - worse than "Exxon". I suppose it is supposed to suggest "acceleration", but with only one "c" it really doesn't. It makes me think instead of "Akela" - a wolf in The Jungle Book and/or the mythical leader of the Cub Scouts. Not very good associations for a high-speed train. Perhaps they should have stayed with "American Flyer". Wasn't that a model train maker though, a competitor of Lionel? Maybe it should be "Metroliner II" (or III) or "SuperLiner" or... No, not "Super Train", that was a
TV show...
I've got it: "AmeriLiner 2000".
I think the name fits right along with other memorable ones such as:
"Kiwi Airlines" (Kiwi is a bird that can't fly)
"Chevrolet Nova" (No-va in Spanish means won't go)
Agreed - but in all fairness to Kiwi Airlines, they are based in New Zealand, and New Zealanders are known as "Kiwis".
Of course, I remember my '82 Plymouth Reliant SE wagon fondly too - we called it the Unreliant. Great railfan car, very manueverable in heavy chase traffic (chasing N&W 1218 and 611 mostly) when it ran - but that was the operative phrase, "when it ran". Now I'm back to FoMoCo products that just won't quit no matter how hard I push them.
But I digress, so I'll sign off for now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gee, another UnReliant!!! We had an 83 - it was a DOG!! Two camshaft replacements (at Chrysler's expense( plus a new engine at 79,000 miles (my dime). Brakes that needed relining every 25,000, added to windshield leakage and othe rfun stuff. We junked it in 1987 and went Toyota, and never bought American again. It was a great railfan car, as Anon_e_mouse mentioned - great for train chasing, plus you could jam it full of fans and it still went.
Our first car was a Plymouth Horizon, which we bought with 70,000 miles on it and kept for six years. Loved that car, and how well it suited our image (no one thinks you're a person who needs a fancy car for your ego when you drive a Horizon). It was kind of like the subway. And it ran. We could leave it buried under the snow for two weeks (since we normally use transit, we often don't need the car for a while) and it would still start. They don't make-em that cheap anymore, so we had to upgrade to a Saturn Wagon, but we really miss the old eco-boxes. Guess I'm just a spawn of the 70s.
I have a particular affection for Chysler products. My parents had an AMC Hornet of unknown vitage, and in 1981, bout their first new car (I was all of 6), a Chrysler LeBaron. Lasted us til 1987 with no major problems, aside from my mother's bad driving (sorry, Mom), which is finally what did it in. We slid off a dirt road and into a telephone pole, and I learned rather quickly that a seat belt is particularly important, the hard (headed) way.
Then we had a hand-me-down 1984 Olds Custom Crusier. At 50mph, all the idiot lights on the dash came on, and stayed on, till you hit 55. VERY odd. My parents finally replaced it with a new '94 Olds wagon, (again, Mom did it in, though it wasn't ALL her fault) which to date has been recalled 3 times and had the engine replaced by the shop that neglegted to install the oil drain plug properly.
My Father had a pair of Dodge Vans he used for his busines, a 79 (which had my name on the hood :) and an 81 (which had my brother's :(
They each lasted 10 years, and were quite literally driven into the ground. They were replaced with an 89 and 91 GMC Vanduras, both of which have now been repainted twice (warranty) and had their side sliders replaced due to corrosion problems. At least he maintains these properly...
Now, back to trains :)
-Hank
With the camshaft problems, I'm assuming you had the 2.6 - mine was a 2.2 (unusual for the SE model). It suffered from bad rings and a leaky headgasket until I had the motor rebuilt - also at 79K, as I recall - and plagued me with a large number of electronic glitches. I sold it at 132K to a couple who had surrendered their new car to the finance company in advance of a repo.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm beginning to think my Jeep has a combination of BMT standard, Triplex, and R-32 blood in it. Consider this:
It's closing in on 355,000 miles, all on the original engine, which is still oil tight.
Almost 250,000 miles on the original brakes; still on the second set.
202,000 miles out of the original clutch; still on the second one.
Didn't have to replace the starter until the vehicle was one day shy of its eleventh anniversary.
Replaced the battery after 20 months; didn't have to replace it again for 9 years.
Gas mileage has been in the 25-28 mpg range; about 80% of all driving is on the highway.
OK, it's on its fourth alternator, fifth or sixth water pump, and fifth windshield, and the front axle bearings had to be replaced a year ago.
Maybe I should have taken out R-32 plates after all...
[ ... "American Flyer" Wasn't that a model train maker though, a competitor of Lionel? ] Yes, but in a different guage, i.e. "027"
Mr t__:^)
American Flyer was a line of model trains in 1/64 scale with two rail "S" Gauge track. It was best known as a division of the AC Gilbert Co. (Gilbert was the manufacturer of "Erector Sets" and many other items). During the fifties it was very popular. Gilbert went bankrupt in the sixties and the rights for the train line were sold to Lionel who still makes a small amount of products under the American Flyer name. Several other companies are now making a large amount of compatable products and the gauge is seeing more popularity now than it has since the fifties.
Lionel was owned by General Mills at one point, wasn't it?
Quiz: Name 3 Famous Generals!
-Hank
General Motors, General Electric, General Mills, General Schwartzkopf...
Yes, Lionel was owned by General Mills for a time, then was acquired by a private individual for a handsome price. During the mid-80s, production was moved to Mexico and, well, you can imagine what happened. Lionel Trains, Inc. is located in Mt Clemens, MI today.
While I have a good amount of Lionel American Flyer trains in my colleciton, most of my Flyer stuff is of the Gilbert variety.
The first 3 were the answers I was looking for :)
I read something in high school (way back, for me ;) about a survey taken to name 3 famous Generals, and these were the TOP 3 most common answers:
General Electric
General Mills
General Motors.
They rest of the top 10:
Shwartzkof(sp?)
Washington
Eisenhower
Custer (sometimes Custurd!)
Surgeon (as in Surgeon General)
Wayne (John Wayne!)
Lee (not specified if they meant the car or the man)
The point of the exercise was that we should read more, and pay more attention to history.
-Hank
American Flyer, produced by A. C. Gilbert in Connecticut - 1/64 (S) scale, both AC and DC models, 2 rail for both, two different styles of track over the years (hi-rail or tinplate plus a more realistic looking track similar in style to HO sectional), three different styles of couplers (only two of which were compatible). Gilbert also made 1/87.1 (HO) scale without the American Flyer moniker - I still have some from my younger days - and may have produced other scales, I'm not sure. They produced some beautiful New Haven sets; given their location, that's not surprising. Yes, they ended up being an also-ran to Lionel's superior marketing strength, but they were an equivalent quality product (unlike Marx, which ran on Lionel track but was of inferior quality). Particularly in light of their location and place in model RR history, it is unfortunate that Amtrak didn't see fit to use the name. Or perhaps it's because Lionel (now owner of the trademark and producer of an overpriced collector's limited edition line under the American Flyer name) wouldn't license it to them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Originally, when A. C. Gilbert took over American Flyer, they made O gauge trains, as did Lionel. They even ran on the same 3-rail track. The train line was retooled to 3/16-inch scale in 1939, but the trains continued to run on O gauge track. After the war, 2-rail S gauge track was introduced, and the competition was on. I got my first Flyer set on my fifth birthday; my mother figured I'd never go for 3-rail track. When I was a kid, she'd drag me over to train displays in whatever department store we'd be at, and it didn't excite me at all. Go figure. She blames herself for my interest in Flyer today.
DC operation was around very briefly for Gilbert Flyer trains, 1947-1950 or thereabouts, and was never expanded to the entire line. They stuck with AC operation after that, although the locomotives had universal motors which could run either way.
["Acela" - yuck is right. That has to be the worst name these marketing types have come up with yet - worse than "Exxon".]
Regarding the Acela = name of a disease theory, how about the following advertisement:
"Hello, my name is Susie, and I'm eight years old. I like to run and play with the other kids, but I can't anymore. That's because Mommy and Daddy say I have Acela. When you have Acela, you don't feel good and can't play or run or anything. Please, give generously to the Sweethearts Campaign for Acela Mitigation (SCAM). Your dollars will help find a cure so I can play with my friends.
Please make your checks payable to Peter Rosa."
Thanks Peter, that's great!
So I guess Acela is something like part ACne andf part rubELA, right?
Soupy Sales how I miss you, i.e. you want the paper from mom & dads wallet with the pictures of George Washington on them sent to you ?
Oh, Brother!!!
http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/soupy1.htm
Best source for checking urban legends on the 'net: San Fernando Valley Folklore Society This one, for we of the younger set, is true....
-Hank :)
They changed the name to Exxon from Esso, because of the corny jokes that could be made about it ("Esso-B"). At least that's why I think it was changed. I've seen Esso in Canada and England.
Esso (Eastern Seaboard Standard Oil) was banned from the southwest back in the 1920s for illegal business dealings, so they bought Humble Oil and renamed it Enco (Energy Company). By the 60s you also had the refinig division Enjay (their cute way of saying N.J., which is where Esso, Standard Oil of New Jersey, came from).
In order to have one name nationwide, they went to the marketing geniuses and they came up with Exxon in 1971. Thanks to that foresighted move, the name Esso has never been associated with Alaskan oil spills.
I remember seeing Enco signs at gas stations as a kid. In Ohio, you'd see Sohio signs for Standard Oil of Ohio.
Amoco and Chevron still had stations in the Plains states and Southwest that said "Standard" up until the mid 1980s. Nowadays though, all companies want their brands standardized nationwide.
BTW -- Is Hellman's mayonaise still Best Foods out on the West Coast?
- Do you have any independant knowledge of how far North they have got with the o/h wire at this point ?
- Is MBayTA diesel South of Boston, if so are there any plans to switch to elect. commuter equip ?
- American Flyer in O27 guage :-)
Mr t__:^)
The MBTA says they have no present plans to switch to electric equipment south of Boston. They have just purchased new diesel power; any changeover I believe would have to wait until the North-South Rail Link which would unite North and South Stations. That will happen about the same time as the Second Avenue Subway is completed :-(
I rode the main line from South Station to Mansfield just last week. There are poles, cross-arms, and hangers along the entire stretch, except for the immediate vicinity of South Station. There is wire up along much, but not all of that portion as well. I ride that line every few weeks, and see progress each time I ride. The high-level platforms at the Route 128 station are in the process of being built as well.
Today's Post reports big problems with the new car
order from Bombardier. Do we presume that nothing will be accepted until the TA is certain the cars are built properly? On Track For Disaster
(Do we presume the TA will not accept the cars)? The deal was to provide jobs for Upstaters. TA engineers might come under heavy pressure to accept the cars if the company says it needs to pull production back to Quebec. Especially if certain people would be out of office when problems develop.
Then again, my prior post assumes the story is correct. This is the NY Post we are talking about.
Get the Bondo out for the Redbirds, it looks like they'll all be hanging around a little while longer.
Simon will be thrilled to hear this, as will Larry too no doubt.
As for myself, I do have a soft spot in my heart for the 'Birds.
Has anyone seen the fire-engine red doors on the insides of #9186-9187? Interesting paint job- only one like it I've seen so far.
Wayne
I'm also happy. I/m going to enjoy the Redbirds as long as I can just as long as the kids don't bust into the cab and play with the PA. But I ignore it anyway.
Simon is thrilled. I shall bring some sticky tape over on Saturday.
And I shall bring the putty knife, steel wool and emery paper.
The rust spots round the doors and at the botoms of the carbodies are few and far between, at least on the #2 cars (the R33s). The #5 and #6 cars - that is another story.
Wayne
Hallelujah! Long live our beloved Redbirds. Maybe a supplier can give a special discount for a large volume Bondo purchase. If nothing else, they should be kept in mothballs for a long time once the R-142s do arrive.
I knew they shouldn't have reused those R-16 numbers...
Hey guys kind of makes you wonder if we would be having the same production problems if there were still the likes of the BUDD Co or St. Louis Car. After all think about it the R-32's are still rolling along. In Philly the M-3s can probably hold there own against the new high-tech M-4s. I wonder if the M-4s will be around as long as the M-3s?
Don't count on the M-3s being around forever. SEPTA is scrapping them like there's no tomorrow. Every time another set of M-4s enters service, there go some more M-3s. Are any of them going to be saved?
Why do I feel like we have another case like those Flexible buses the city had in the late 70's? Lemons. It's as if someone sees the TA coming.
I, as a life-long #2 train rider, am very dissapointed to have to read that. First I heard 1997 would be the year that the #2 line would get new cars. Then 1998. Then early 1999. Then April. Then July. Then December. Now because of shoddy workmanship on the part of Bombardier, they may not come at all? I think the line I grew up with, the #2 line, is cursed. Not only is the 2 stuck with the oldest, most archaic rolling stock in the entire tri-state area (as is the 5), but its cars were also one of the favorite targets for graffiti punks.
It is ridiculously slow in the Bronx, Harlem, and Brooklyn. It took the TA a million years to complete the lighting project on the Bronx elevated stations and they still haven't even started on Pelham Parkway. Look how long it took to finish the escalator project! Why have they waited until now to start modernizing the signals? Why didn't they start this sooner? Why does we still have those nasty, archaic jointed rails, unlike other lines that have nice, modern, smooth continuous welded rail? And now the 2 is going to be stuck with the same tired old cars into the new millenium?
Sure we were treated to (teased with) R-62s and R-62As in 1983 and 1984 for a little while there. But did they stay on the 2? Noooooo, they had to go to the 1, 3, 4, and 6 lines, didn't they? I'd like to know why. Guess I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up, should I? Then we got that cool new R-110A in 1993, and I got all psyched into thinking more cars just like those ten, or similar were on their way. And I kept hearing they were. But it looks like once again, I got my hopes up for nothing. Looks like the 2 is going to enter the 21st century with 19th century technology. What a shame! But it's that old curse again! Well, I'm hoping the Kawasaki R-142As have more professional people working on them and that they'll make it here soon. Otherwise, I'll just have to go live on the other side of the Bronx to ride in more modern equipment. Maybe the TA has some personal vendetta against the 2 train.
As A IRT Train Operator that worked many of days on the No.2 Line you may have something there. But look on the bright side the No.2 Line Riders isn't the worst treated riders. The No.5 Line wins that. Some weekends the No.5 doesn't reach Dyre Ave. Other times it goes to 149 St then cram into that sardeen No.2 to E 180 and get the Shuttle because of Weekend Trackwork. If theres a bad snow storm the No. 5 get knocked out. Ofcause the No.2 still runs 10 min headways dispite the extra riders. Also the No.5 will be the 1st line to get the R 142'S because E 180 was just overhauled to handle the new trains. If you want to talk about the Best IRT service that would be the N0.1,4,6 lINES
The No.2&5 Lines don't see to get respect. Both lines have daily inconvenace
Maybe you're right, but the 5 now has at least a few R62As while the 2 has none and the R-110A is still out of service (I think). But let me ask you about the R-142s. Will they run exclusively on the 5? To me that sounds like a bad idea even though 180th Street was specifically overhauled for them, because the 5 doesn't run all the time like the 2 does. It seems like the 5 is seeing less and less weekend service. If the 5 becomes all R-142s and the 2 remains all Redbirds that means a lot of the new cars would be in the yard while the older equipment would not be getting the maintenance and rest that the old faithful cars deserve. Still that scenario seems unlikely at least for long. If they do come on the 5 first, it won't be long at all before they start also appearing on the 2 like the R-68s which were assigned to the D and soon after began showing up on the Q (although the Q is now Slant R-40s and the B has its R68As).
One more thing. Why is Bombardier having problems building these cars? Are its Boston Red Line cars suffering from any problems (last time I rode them they seemed fine). What about its new Toronto cars? The R-62As are doing quite well as is their push-pull equipment on NJT and Metro-North. Something fishy's going on here. Shoddy workmanship? Is Bombardier cutting corners here?
As part of the contract, the cars needed to be assembled iun NY State. Bombardier, not having a NY State assemblyt plant, leased space at the former Plattsburgh Air Force Base, and hired local unskilled labor, as per their contract. Blame the state. If the cars were assembled at their Quebec plant by experienced workers, there likely would be fewer problems. Kawasaki, having an established plant in Yonkers, didn't need to start off with a new, unskilled labor pool, so I'd assume the Kawasaki cars will be better recieved.
-Hank
What happened to their Auburn, NY plant (Auburn is somewhere near Syracuse, I think)? If you look at the manufacturer's plaque on R-62As, you'll see three plants telling where the cars were made. The top one says "Auburn, NY." Some of them only have the other two plants, in Barre, VT and La Pocatiere, QC. But most plaques also have the Auburn plant. What could have happened to it?
Even thow they say The No.5 is the first line to get the trains some will make there way to the No.2 and then the No.2 will be the Second line to get the New trains
R110A have a bad brake and that why they out of service since last year
cracked trucks
As for car equipment, yes, White Plains and Dyre are getting the short end of the stick, but as for shortened runs and shuttles on the weekends, most times track work is done a diversion is called for. The only alternative is to shut the line down completely like they are doing with the Franklin Av shuttle. Nobody wants that.
And the big picture with Dyre and all this work is that in time there will be new signals up there and an M track all the way from Dyre to south of Morris Park, so INSTEAD of weekend shuttles or train breakdowns, the service can be run around the problem. In the long run it's actually an improvement.
Every line gets this treatment from time to time and right now it's the #5.
Ok, lets not get into a panic here. Projects like this _do_ often have problems. Remember that the newspaper has some incentive to make the issue sound worse than it really is.
(Projects like this do have problems). The TA has a real problem -- it can't just buy cars off the rack. It really is too bad there wasn't more of an interest in standardization 100 years ago. Rail cars are interchangable. Trolley cars ran everywhere. Buses are the same. But every transit system is unique.
There's not a single off-the-shelf railcar out there that can fit in the IRT tunnels? Not even in Europe, Asia, or South America? I know that both the Broad Street and PATCO lines in Philadelphia are the same dimentions which are also that of the R-110B and BMT Standards (so why are the R-143s going to be only 60 feet long?) What about the PATH cars. They're nearly the same dimentions as the IRT cars (and so much nicer looking). PATH is about to order new cars. Why doesn't the MTA look into a joint order with PATH (like the Baltimore and Miami Metro cars and the MUNI/MBTA order of LRVs). Of course considering how the Port Authority and MTA feel about each other...
You could always have some of our 1959 Northern Line tube size units.
Standarizing doesn't always solve problems - witness the disaster that the MBTA/Muni LRVs were. It sounds like most of the problems Bombardier is having are is either rooted in politics, or incompetent management. Seriously, building a subway car is not black magic, and it should be easy to do one to spec anyway. Quality control problems will occure no matter what - if you let a project get tied up in politics - or poorly run things.
Yes, the fact that everything is a custom order means that every order will have problems!
On the other hand, how "standardized" is passenger equipment? Do any of the big passenger RRs order off the shelf equipment any more? One real advantage they have is that they are moving, more and more, to locomotive hauled trains, even on electrified lines. But even unpowered coaches are specialized these days, to a large extent, as they move to bilevels and such to maximize capacity.
Another way of thinking about it: Every time the TA orders cars, they redesign them to some extent. Is this always worthwhile? In the long run, hopefully mostly!
I have arranged my first trip to Boston and I have a few transit questions:
What routes are trackless trolley?
Are the Mattapan - Ashmont PCCs still running?
What are some interesting subway /LRV rides from a railfan point of view?
Thanks for any help.
Rob
Trackless trolleys run in Cambridge and Watertown; the easiest route to get to is the Cambridge-North Cambridge #77A, which can be accessed at the Harvard Square stop on the Red Line. Note that trackless trolleys now only run weekdays during rush hour! Midday service was eliminated recently.
PCCs are indeed running on the Matapan-Ashmont line. In fact, they are being overhauled so that they can spend another 20+ years in service! Fortunately, a previous plan to scrap the PCCs in favor of LRVs or buses has been shelved in favor of the rebuild program!
The good news is that the Boston system is sufficiently small, that you can do it all in one day. Each line is different, and has "interesting" aspects. A few highlights:
Blue line: Change-over from overhead to third rail at Airport; running one-shot timer signals at full speed in the under-Boston Harbor tunnel.
Orange line: Grade level running in the southwest corridor; elevated/grade level north of the city.
Red line: New stations north of Harvard; the 1800 series "new technology" cars (similar in some ways to the R-110B); high-speed running on the Braintree branch; the Matapan-Ashmont trolley service.
Gree line: All of it! Ride the Boeing LRVs and the Type-7s. Note that there are two generations of Type-7s: 3600 and 3700 series cars (differentiated, among other things, by different door closing chimes!). If you are here after 15 March, it is rumored that two of the new 3800 series Type-8 Breda cars will be in public service. Ride the E/Heath line from Lechemere to Heath for great elevated and street running, with the central subway in the middle. Then take the B/Boston College, C/Cleveland Circle, and D/Riverside lines for their own unique rides on street and private rights-of-way.
If you have some leftover time, take a commuter rail (Purple Line) ride from North of South Station too. South Station routes often feature bi-level coaches, as well as the new Pullman rebuilds with electric doors.
The MBTA has a good Web site for additional information, and the New England Transportation Site can provide a lot more information, including pictures of the car lines' inventory.
Routes 71 and 77 feature trackless service all day except Sunday and venture about four miles west from Harvard Sq. Both run along Mount Auburn St. which adjoins the Charles River for a while, then skirts Mount Auburn Cemetary on the left. At the point where 71 and 73 separate there is a Star Market which occupies a former carhouse dating to the horsecar days. Both lines follow similar paths through mixed commercial/residential neighborhoods from this point outward. 71 Watertown terminates across the river from the former Watertown Carhouse, still in some sort of use by the MBTA. 73 Waverly loops above commuter rail station and skirts Oakley Country Club.
Another trackless line is 72 Huron. This route features infrequent service, narrow streets, several tight turns and left side loading on the outer end. 77A North Cambridge is a cutback of 77 Arlington Heights operated as an extension of 73 Waverly. Route 77 used PCC cars prior to 1955. It was proposed for conversion to trackless, but the work was never done. 71, 73 and 77A retained PCC cars until 1958, when they were converted. 72 was converted way back in 1937, and is the oldest remaining trackless line. All four use the Harvard Square Tunnel, along with a few bus lines. The trackless all have doors on the left side, and use them in the southbound tunnel, while the buses load and unload into the wall. Bus route 69 is a former trackless line, as are many others around the system.
I've noticed that the South Boston Piers Transitway is supposed to use trolley buses; at least the MBTA website is still saying that mode will be used.
1. How far beyond the transitway (if at all) will the trackless operation extend? Will there be just one route, or several branches?
2. Will this be a dual-mode operation like Seattle?
3. Has there been any interest in expansion of trackless operations elsewhere in Boston?
Thanks.
You might try and pick a recent copy of the BSRA's publication "Roll Sign" which ran an article proposing two day-long fan trips of the system, to be taken individually.
They stuck to the subway and trolley lines, and did not include the trackless trolleys of Cambridge and Watertown.
It would be nice if someone in NYC could propose a day-long trip over the New York system for out of towners, getting in as many different lines, types of rolling stock, and experiences as possible. Any takers?
Thanks to Todd, Phil and Gerry for the info. I am looking forward to riding trackless trolleys again. I lived next to a Toronto trolleybus route that was dieselised in 1992. It appears that Boston's trackless trolley system is heading in the same direction unfortunately.
It looks like all the heavy rail equipment in Boston is transvese-cabless, so I can park myself in front of the railfan windows. Is it possible to peak into the operators cabs and see the speedometers or not?
Thanks again
Rob
Rob,
The Blue, Orange, and Red lines all have full-width cabs. However on each of these there is a window on the left side from which one can usually peer over and see what's going on with the operator. Just the red line offers good views of the speedometer. Sometimes there is a curtain that is closed, but more often than not, you can get this view.
On the Green line trolleys, you can stand right behind the operator and see everything nicely.
On the Purple line (commuter rail), you can look into the full-width cab of the control car (center window, with see through to the front too), and get a clear view of the engineer, his controls, and speedometer. Note this only works inbound, as the diesel engines pull trains outbound from both North and South Stations. Also, you have the best shot at this view during rush hours. During off-peak times, the crews often close up the lead (inbound) car, much to the dismay of railfans!
I've got a Boston quesion, too. Who are the geniuses at the MBTA that have decided to continue running diesel hauled trains on the soon-to-be-electrified Northeast Corridor section between Boston and Providence. Doesn't Amtrak have a say in that decision, since the MBTA is their tenant on that part of the Corridor?
Well, evidently it does not make any sense to have specialized equipment just for that line. Also, electric locomotives are often more expensive than diesel locomotives - particularly if you buy used.
BTW, Amtrak operates MBTA Purple trains, so rest assured that they are aware that MBTA is running diesel trains under their wires. The only real problem I can think of would be if the diesels somehow damage the nice new tracks. But MARC in Maryland has been running diesels under the wires on the other end of the NEC for a while, due to electric locomotive shortages, and Amtrak has not gotten all upset down there.
There are so called railfan seats in Blue Line cars and the 1800 series cars on the Red Line... The Orange Line and Red Line(1500s,1600s,1700s) have large boxes for the ATO operation on the left side of the cab. Note, the Blue Line does not have an ATO system.
Going down in to the Montigue Tunnel, I thought I saw two pipes alongside the tracks, but then they stopped. That got me thinking. Other railroads sell or lease easements along their ROW. And AMTRAK is accepting parcel packages. Has the subway ever been used for freight (other than by the TA)? Are there any easements on the ROW?
Should there be?
Perhaps the most common historically has been the use of rr row for communication networks. Early competitors of Ma Bell leased rr row in Chgo. various current long distance carriers have fiber links buried along exWP Feather River Canyon linr, B&O(P&W) line north of Pittsburgh and of course the famous CHGO Tunnels originally claiming to be for phone lines , used for freight, lastly currently used for power and data/telcom row. BART here in SF Bay Area has talked of fiber network along row. TA certainly goes enough places
Back in the 1960s it was proposed to sell them to a guy called Chalk who would have run freight. The idea was killed. He claimed that the business(passengers) would drop after the 1964-1965 Fair.
As a matter of fact, BART currently is a passageway through the Transbay Tube for Fiber Networks, and, is laying an additional cableway along the ROW for additional Fibers to be used and leased. There is a huge potential here for revenues...I wonder if the TA is listening?
WMATA in DC is leasing space in the tunnels for fiber optics to be mounted to the walls. Nice Revenue producer I expect
I think BART was also part of a USPS experiment for collecting the mail...
-Hank
Many telecom companies use the old subway conduits to run fiber optic cable. My employer (and others) use the east side IRT conduits to link our downtown and midtown fiber networks. The MTA makes money on this, though I don't know how much. The city gets a cut also, a franchise fee. The city occasionally sends people to our office to audit our circuit inventory to keep us honest, which we are.
Maybe a subway historian can verify the following - Was the subway used to move U.S. Mail during World War 2? I read somewhere that it was, but can't remember the source.
Channal 2 News web site sez work on the Bridge will Begin April 23. I looked at the calender and thats a Friday. They claim it will end October 11. Will have to wait and see on that.
(Work will begin April 23). I wonder if the TA will adjust on the fly. Who knows what people will do? Is there an official recommendation for every station -- ie take the bus to X and take the train to Y? Will such recommendations be handed out separately at each station?
Web Site for Channal 2
www.cbs2ny.com
Hit the news button
(Click there). I did as you suggested, and clicked under "full story", but it wasn't the full story, since it didn't metion that half of the Manhattan Bridge tracks have been out for 17 YEARS!!!
Maybe the Williamsburg Bridge issue will focus more attention on the problem, especially if they run into trouble.
I'm sure there will be many advertising placards in the ENY assigned cars similar to what was in the IRT Redbirds when the Lenox Project was underway.
Larry, I certainly hope that information is passed out in a timely manner. My family and I use the Willie B corridor. I am on pins and needles waiting for official word as to start date and alt. options.
If any one apply for the Conductor? I am going to give you some question and you give me a answer. Please post subtalk and i will give the answer later.
#1 If a conductor operating a 10-car train with married pairs finds that he can no longer operate from the middle position, he must
A. discharge the passengers
B. operate from the 6th car
C. operate from the 8th car
D. call the tower
#2 Four short blasts of a train horn means that the train
A. is answering a signal
B. crew needs assistance
C. is passing caution lights
D. is requesting a route or signal
#3 A succession of short blasts form a train horn could mean that the train
A. is making an irregular movement through the station
B. is answering a signal
C. needs a road car inspector
D. has vandals aboard
#4 If an end door is unlocked on an R-44 car, it is indicated by a lighted______ light.
A. red
B. blue
C. yellow
D. green
#5 When an exterior guard light on a train car is lit, it DERINITELY means that
A. all doors are closed and properly locked
B. at least one door is not closed or properly locked
C. a door is being held open by a passenger
D. the doors on one side of the train car are closed and properly locked
#6 When an interior guard light in a train car is lit, it DEFINITELY means that
A. all soors are closed and properly locked
B. at least one door is not closed or properly locked
C. a door is being held open by a passenger
D. the doors on one side of the train car are closed and properly locked
These questions will not be on the Conductor Test that you can file for this month?
This requires too much knowlege of the system before training. They had no operational questions on the Conductor test I took in the 80's.
you never know it going to be on the test. Each test alway diffirent but can't not be the same question. This year you don't know what question going to be on test.
Having picked up an ARCO book, I can definately saw there aren't any serious questions about actual operations. Common sense safety questions, schedule and time questions, and landmark locations, to name a few.
-Hank
My book is not Arco. I bought the book is from Natinal Learning Corporation and have a a lot of diffirent questions in that book. Why don't you go to www.passbooks.com you can find alot of books and order it. Well i been study Couductor for week now and i study two hour a day. Well when the test come in June and you don't know what question going to be on the test. Last test i took was in 93 and some of question that i study was in the test but i didn't pass the conductor test. My score was 69%. So good luck
There won't be operating questions on the test. Just general saftey questions. On the test in the 80's we had a subway map and had to answer questions on how to get from one point to another.
That's good - I carry various versions of the NYCT subway map around with me at all times - inside my head!
Wayne
also brush up on some NYC landmark locations past and present.
one questions was where is St Patricks Cathedral and Rockerfeller Ctr located
A. 47th/50th st
B. 110th st cathedral pkway
c. 42nd st
d. 34th st
guess how many people picked B ?
where was The polo grounds located?
the original location of Madison Square Garden?
What station was Ebbets Field closets to?
The Polo Grounds was located at 155 street and 8th Ave. You can take the D train to get there which is now a apt complex.
The orginal Madison Square Garden was located at Madison Square Park and 14th Street. This one i am quessing at the Street.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Madison Square Park is located at 23rd Street, 5th Avenue and Broadway - Union Square is 14th Street.
Was there ever an MSG located at or near 14th Street?
Wayne
[Madison Square Park is located at 23rd Street, 5th Avenue and Broadway - Union Square is 14th Street.
Was there ever an MSG located at or near 14th Street?]
Nope. The original Madison Square Garden was at Madison Square, and its replacement (1920s?) was at 8th Avenue and 50th Street, now the site of Worldwide Plaza.
There once were some large theaters in the Union Square area. The last of these, the Palladium, was demolished a few months ago to make way for a NYU dormitory building.
Ahh, the Palladium, den of infamy that it was - I saw many a concert there, including the KISS Debut Concert where Gene Simmons set his hair on fire - and the LOUDEST concert I was ever at - Slade. Someone said the sound level inside was 112db.
Wayne
Odd thing about the Palladium, even though it was a well-known concert venue in its day, its recent demolition seemed to take place without any public attention. I read the Daily News or the Post almost every weekday on the train, and usually look at the Times online, but I don't recall anything about the Palladium. On the other hand, when the Fillmore East was demolished a couple of years ago, there was quite a bit of media attention even though some of the structure was preserved. Nothing's left of the Palladium except a hole in the ground.
Ouch! That's loud. We're talking threshhold of pain here. Even an A train of R-10s thundering past 81st St.- CPW wasn't that loud. Now, a Chicago L train in the subway might approach that noise level.
Oh, and BTW, Ebbets Field was within a block or two of Prospect Park on the Brighton line.
Madison Square is 23st and B'way. Caught a PBS show the other day, where they mention the guy on the statue in that park, at the corner of B'way and 23, is someone else's head on Abe Lincoln's body. I can't remember who it is, though. I've seen some old maps indicating you could take the BMT to the (political party) National Convention at Madison Square Garden.
-Hank
[Madison Square is 23st and B'way. Caught a PBS show the other day, where they mention the guy on the statue in that park, at the corner of B'way and 23, is someone else's head on Abe Lincoln's body. I can't remember who it is, though.]
It's William H. Seward, US Secretary of State and NY native, best known for purchasing Alaska from the Russians. Seward Park High School on the Lower East Side also bears his name. (Trivia question: what does Seward have in common with John Connally?) Why his head was placed on a statute of Lincoln's body is a bit of a mystery. One version I've heard is that the group who planned to erect a statue of Seward was falling short in its fundraising, and was only able to afford the head. That might not have been a problem had it been a statue of Marie Antoinette, but the group was at an impasse until they found an unfinished Lincoln statue and bought it for a reasonable price.
Speaking of odd statues, there's a strange one of Lincoln at the north side of Union Square. It's odd because Lincoln appears rather stout, which obviously isn't the way he's usually portrayed as being.
Well, the story given on the PBS show ('A walk up Broadway?') was that the statue people were short on funds, and the artist had Lincoln's body just lying around...
-Hank
I don't remember there being questions like that on the conductors test i took.There were no Questions that you needed to have any knowledge of equipment.Basic knowledge off the city will help.With some basic math and reading skills theres no reason why anybody should score less than an 80 on this test.Good luck to all its a good job
You know that there is about 80 question and from 1 to 40 it easy and 41 to 80 it kind of hard. Because i took my in 1993 or 1994 and i wrote the answer on the paper. Then i wait seven weeks from the test and i look up the answer from the chief. My test from 1 to 40 i have about 7 wrong but from 41 to 80 i have about 20 wrong.
I'd be willing to take a stab at two of them:
3. A
5. B
R-32s #s 3784 and 3785 have been sripped of parts and are out of service at the Jamaica Yard in Kew Gardens,Queens. i cant understand how the T.A. has a 379 million dollar surplus,but cant offord parts for cars that run on one of the busiest lines in the "B" division, being the "E"line. Also, the 4 car set of R-46s,#s 5554-5555-5557-5556 are still inside the barn at Jamaica Yard; in case you didnt know it,these R-46s have been heavily stripped for parts and have been Out Of Service for almost 4 years already!!! i hear thru the grapevine that these cars will be restored back to service, and the barn is awaiting parts...speaking of Jamaica Yard, the G.O. to rebuild the yard tracks is starting to progress quite nicely...
Guess what...there have been a couple of R68s in the barn and the yard at Coney Island Yard that have been quietly stripped of parts. I can understand this perhaps with the older R32 equipment, but for gosh sakes the 68s are just over 10 years old.
Does that really suprise you? There were 425 purchased and to this date, all are still classified as revenue active. Therefore there are no 'scrapped cars' from which to get spare parts. The original manufacturer and their vendors have a lead time of 180 or more days on some parts. Therefore if a car goes out of service and requires a part, rather than having two cars out of service for an extended time period, the part might be re-allocated from a car that is already awaiting material. Is this desirable? Not really. It's a record keeping nightmare. Is is necessary? Most definitely. To the best of my knowledge there are just 2 such R-68s out of service. One belongs to Coney Island and one belongs to Concourse. Both are repairable and will be restored.
Maybe they'll be souped up a bit...
Are #3784-3785 officially classified as "Revenue Inactive" yet?
I'll mark them as "orange" (currently out of service/with or without revenue-inactive status) on my master list.
Wayne
Put away your crayon, Wayne. Those cars are being put back together.
Actually, it is just the act of undoing the orange coloring of the two cells in the R32 (and R32 Census) workbooks. I did not annotate my handmade (spiral bound) numbers book, only the 1-2-3 sheets. Thanks for the info - undoing changes on paper involves whiting them out (I have done this a number of times).
I use Berol colored pencils but I do have a set of 96 Crayolas that Roe gave me for my birthday a couple of years ago.
Wayne
Crayolas rule.
Hey Wayne do you think I could check out your spreadsheets?
-Dave
Absolutely! Shall I pack them all up into a ZIP and mail them to you?
I have the following:
R4, R6-7-9, R10, R12-14-15, R16, R17, R21-22, R26-28, R27-30, R29-33,
R32, R32 Census, R33WF-R36, R38, R40-40M, R42, R44, R46, R62, R62A, R68, R68A, Odd Lots (which are R11,R130,R131,Q Cars, Multi Sections [pro forma list]), Steinway WF Lo-V, SIRT R44, PATH, LIRR MUs, LIRR Diesels, DC Metro and MARC.
A number of these carspottings date right back to Day One, which is April 7, 1969. I seem to have been spotting trains for thirty years now.
Come to think of it, here it comes now...123files.zip
Wayne
Starting at 7am on 3/15/1999 all station booths will be selling the MSG Metro CHannels MetroCard. To be sure you get one, go early and find a 24 hour booth.
Many thanks for the input !
BTW, would you happen to know if any stations are still selling the Ferry Boat MetroCard ... several of us have been having trouble finding one, e.g. one friend even went to South Ferry without success.
Mr t__:^)
I have not seen any bulletins on the Ferry Card. I worked SOuth Ferry and serached-no ferry cards. You might try Whitehall BMT or St George in Staten Island. Sorry :-(
Never seen it....
-Hank
After my experience on the 4,5,6, yesterday might I suggest that riders crawl to their destinations across broken glass. You will not only get their faster, but more comfortably. Whats more trails of broken glass stop a Bleeker street. And are less likely to go Express without an announcment.
What kind of sick, twisted, transit employee thought up that unceasing sadistic loop of announcments at 14th Street? Most people I know would agree that pulling the plug on that recorded loop would would improve the NYC Transit system by 1000%.
Is this the SAME Chris that was going for the MetroCard dip/swipe record ?
Are you still making friends on your way OUT of the station ?
Mr t__:^)
You Bet!
I haven't heard the 14th Street tape loop in awhile. There used to be two recordings about the gap fillers; the first would be in English by a woman who sounded like a school librarian, then a man's voice would give the same message in Spanish.
Now it runs in English only continuously without breaks and syncronized in a way so that it drowns out train announcments.
Chris, I agree that those annountsments are a Pain but theres a good reason. There where lots of Passandger Injuries and gap filler overruns witch cause some problems with People not watching the gap. So Transit has to cover themselves with that every 2 Sec very loud Annountsment. But I notices there is an increase of conductors assigned to work the platform. On the rush Hour there even a Train Service Superviser patroling 14 St-Union Sqaure.
Perhaps the problem is the voice on all the TA announcements sounds like one of the Stepford Wives. Perhaps instead of repeating the same message, they could have a series each of which is intended to appeal to a separate sub-set of the regional population. The existing announcement is good for people from Connecticut. For Brooklyn I recommend "Yo asshole, get yo butt away from the edge." If they can install car alarms that say "Back away from the car!" when someone approaches, surely they can do that.
Now, now, we don't want people taking boxcutters to the loudspeakers in Brooklyn.
Yes, Larry, In London they have a Geeves the Butler sounding voice informing you to "MIND THE GAP"
Next stop "toity toid and toid"
The press release states that ACERA will charge $135 each way between BOS and NYP. The current full-fare, walk-up shuttle (Delta or USAirways) is $203 including departure tax. However, the shuttles have off-peak fares of $90 which are available Saturday and Sunday until 3:00 p.m.; they also have student and senior discounts. In order to remain competitive, ACERA will have to have similar incentive pricing schemes (though off-peak for the train is not necessarily off-peak for the plane!).
The New York Daily news says $140 for the fare NYP to WAS. You can even fly cheaper to National on the non shuttles. For example this weeks TWA Web Saver is $69 Round Trip JFK to National but you have to fly Sat and return Mon or Tue.
I've also gotten fares of $70 yo $90 each way on non shuttle airline (Jet Service BTW, not Prop).
I don't think even Amtrak's "Midtown to Downtown High Speed Rail" is gonna pull too many pax from the airlines. I'm pulling for them though. My travels to DC except in emergancy situtations have been by rail with upgrade to Custom Class for the extra leg room (I'm 6'8"). Leg room even in Coach on Amtrak beats out any regular airline (except exit row in a 72... (727).
Acela. The problem with made-up names is that they're not always easy to spell and/or pronounce. cf. Amtra[c]k.
It would be great if Amtrak finally gives some kind of frequent-rider mileage or better discounts to bring train pricing more in line with that of the airlines. Here's to hoping...
Also, the so-called Acela Regional service (today's NortheastDirect) will not charge as much as the Acela Express (on the American Flyer), so the $135 one-way Express fare is really on the high end of what Amtrak will charge. The cost of a ticket on the Regional trains will presumably stay closer to what it costs now on NortheastDirect. Since even the Regional trains will be faster BOS-NYP thanks to electrification, it's not such a bad deal.
The really interesting thing is that Amtrak will increase service to Boston from nine to seventeen trains daily.
I read in a Newsday article ( http://library.newsday.com/getdoc.cgi?id=127138421x0y29047&OIDS=1Q001D008&Form=RL&bp=no ) that Acela service will go to buffalo. Will the new train really run Empire Service as well? I thought it was just DC -> NY -> BOS. I hope the fare doesnt go up that much for the Empire service as well.
That service will be run with refurbished Tuboliners, paid for by NY State, with service funded under 403(b). But good god, that NAME! They should, barring trademark problems, call the service 'American Flyer.' Hey, they didn't stick with 'Railpax.' Acella Chysler (SI) should sue for TM infringment, that'll get a name change. :)
-Hank
[ ACELA Bullet to Buffalo ... That service will be run with refurbished Tuboliners]
- Interestingly the article doesn't mention that the Bullets aren't going everywhere, i.e. Harrisburg, Buffalo, Richmond, Albany, Newport News, Springfield, etc. It says ACELA "... will replace routes now servered by Metroliner, Empire, ... "
- It also talks about FUTURE service elsewhere, e.g. Calif, Gulf Coast, etc.
- The only hint that ACELA will be supplemented by other AMTRAK trains is memtion that 333 pass cars & 52 cafe will be "modernized"
- The article includes a nice photo of the engine
Mr t__:^)
Acela is just a catch-all brand that encompasses all of the Northeast services, regardless of route or equipment. Acela is composed of three "types" of services, only one of which is new in any significant way:
Acela Express - new 150 mph tilting trainsets, with limited stops on the BOS-NYP-WAS route only
Acela Regional - current NortheastDirect, Empire, and Keystone services, using refurbished Amfleet cars (which presumably will have to be repainted again)
Acela Commuter - current Clocker service
So the "Acela service to Buffalo" is really just the same Empire service that's there now. The new tilting trains obviously can't go to Buffalo because there's no catenary on the Empire Corridor. The Turboliners, when they're done, could reasonably be branded "Acela Express" as well, since they're supposed to be high speed, but who knows.
David, Thanks for the update. I expected it must be something like that.
- The Turbos you're talking about are they the P42-9PH ? They are the successors to the F40PH & P40s ?
- What kind of service will the AEM7s & E60s be relagated to ?
Please pardon me if I have some of these model numbers wrong.
Mr t__:^)
The turbos are selfcontained, gas turbine train sets made by Rohr years ago...
The AEM-7 looks like it'll be around for the foreseeable future, though NJT, Septic, or Marc might get a few. One would imagine the MBTA would switch to electric on their lines that run on the NEC, but they aren't :(
The E-60 is on the way out. Finnaly. The replacements are even uglier, feature 8000hp, and are also in testing out west. No word on what they'll be used for, or who gets them once Amtrak gets broken up in 3 - 4 years (I hold no hope of them surviveing as one entity without their uncle Sam giving them money)
As far as Acela - sounds like Amtrak finnaly figured out that Amtrak is the number one reason why people don't take Amtrak. My guess is they're trying to distance NEC operations from the rest of Amtrak - maybe they are possibly looking to split / sell it off? Anyway, I'l be looking forward to taking these things at least once next year, though New Haven -> NY is probbly gonna cost an arm and a leg :(
I don't know much about the Turboliners. I believe they are gas turbine trains imported from France in the 1970's (someone correct me about this if it's wrong!). They're integrated trainsets, with a locomotive at each end and 5 coach cars in between, and in theory should be able to run up to around 120 mph.
Anyway, they ran in service for a while, experienced various problems, were yanked out of service and mothballed indefinitely. One Turboliner was rebuilt as a test, and it's still used today for NY-Albany service. Funds for rebuilding five more (and for track improvements) were just approved in the fall of 1998, to speed up NY-Albany-Buffalo service and hopefully increase frequencies to western NY state.
I vaguely remember hearing about AEM-7's being overhauled, don't know if it's true. There are new "AME-125" electric locos being built (sometimes I've seen them called High-HorsePower - HHP). Maybe the E-60's will be retired, with whatever's left pulling Acela Regional and long-distance trains on the NEC.
There were 3 attempts at high speed, gas turbine powered trains by Penn Central / Amtrak.
TurboTrain(tm) - Made by United Technologies in the 60's, featured 4 or 5 P&W gas turbines, direct drive, articulation, single axle trucks, and a repution for breaking down and catching fire. Noteable for it's glass wall between the front lounge and the cab, and it's passive tilt feature, which, like the single axle design, was probbably ripped off from the Talgo. A dismal failure.
TurboLiner - Imported from France, made by ANF, of R-68 fame :) Somewhat better, they had 2 turbines, and I believe featured hydraulic drive. Not spectacular, but at least functional. Not in service anymore though.
Rohr TurboLiner (RTL) - Licensed design, actually one of the few things Rohr did right. Being rebuilt, still in service. Seen one in Penn just last year.
As for Amtrak's electrics:
GG-1 - Needs no introduction - retired '82 - '83
E-60 - A failied attempt at a GG - 1 replacement. Capeable of 11kv 25hz, 12kv 60hz and 25kv 60hz operation. Origionally 6000hp, since derated. Lousey trucks, same as P-30 diesel, were prone to derailment I believe. Unreliable, noisy, and butt ugly. Many a photo exists of a GG-1 comming to rescue a dead E -60
AEM -7, also 'Toaster' or 'Swedish Meatball' - 7000hp Box motor, Amtrak's standard electric loco. Built by EMD and ABB, they are somewhat more reliable, feature radial trucks, and make lots of noise. May be / have been overhauled. Expect to see them in the future. I'd go as far as saying they are the worthy replacement to the GG-1, but they are too ugly :)
Meatballs as worthy replacements for the GG-1? Man, I'd like to know what you've been smokin'! True, the E-60 had reliability problems from time to time, but the Meatballs just can't start a heavy train. I've ridden the Silver Service trains - 20+ cars - pulled by a single E-60 (or a single GG-1 back when it was still the Pennsylvania RR hauling them for the Seaboard Coast Line) but if they get beyond 12 cars now they have to add a second Meatball just to get away from the platform, and even that's a strain. My older son and I have taken several photographs of 19 and 20 car trains with three Meatballs on the point.
A worthy replacement for the GG-1 has not yet been delivered. We'll see what the new engines can do and pass judgment in a few years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmm. I wonder how many folks will idolize the Meatball or the E-60 after they are gone, just like the GG1 is idolized today.
Railfans are a conservative lot. There will be a bunch of them who HATE the new 150 mph service just cause its new. Moreso cause they have the nerve to CHANGE THE NAME! Adding insult to injury, the new name has no historical or railroad connotations. Of course, this may be good from a marketing point of view, but railfans hate it.
Over on the usenet, there is a minority that is eagerly awaiting the failure of the new service that they are sure will occur. This includes Amtrak employees. Sad, no?
Yes, it is sad. I have high hopes for the new service, even though I'm not likely to ever make use of it (maybe once, NY-to-Boston, just to say I've done it). It does have a great deal of promise, both as a sorely-needed service in the Northeast and as an example of how good passenger railroading can be - regional rail as well as long distance - in the rest of the US.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is no worthy replacement for the GG-1 - The Motor that could pull Hell of its foundations. We used to watch as the southern railroads would use 2 E6-7's to pull 10 or eleven cars. Three trains would arrive at Washington Terminal, and the Pennsy would combine the sleepers, add 8 or 10 coaches, a pair of parlors and 18 cars from the south - and 1 G would haul the whole train at 90 MPH - all the way to Penn Station.
GG-1 - an 11,000 volt, 25 cycle Steam Engine!!
They will never make its equal again.
You got it. There will never be a replacement for the GG1.....How I love typing "GG1".......it's the GG1, then there's everything else.......The GG1: the BEST machine ever built!
I just put up a load of GG1 Photographs under the "Grand Central" commuter rail section.
-Dave
Dave, I love those pictures of the GG-1's. You really do a great job! I do have a question though. That picture of #4973 near the end isn't really a GG-1 is it? It looks so much like an EP-5 similar to those the NH used to have. I don't suppose there is any chance of a spread like this of the Open Platform Gate Cars?
Regards, Karl B
Oops, you are correct. I thought I moved all the non-gg1 pictures out of that page before putting it up.
I'm working on some things of old El scenes and cars. It's going to be mostly photos without much text unless we can find a volunteer to work on it.
-Dave
Dave: many thanks for posting the GG1 shots. The one at Hunters Point with the M1 in the station bought back pleasant memories to me. Many afternoons I would ride my bike from our apartment in Greenpoint over the Pulaski Bridge and spend many a PM rush hour watching the #7's, LIRR moves at Hunters Point station and the PC trains going toward Penn Station on their way to pick up their commuters and long distance passengers. .
Thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hold on, I thought one of the problems now with AEM7 is it can't haul the roadrailers or whatever they are calling it. They still need the E60 for that job. I'm not sure of the problem something about the trainline brakes??
Could the GG1 haul all types of frieght??
Amtrak still runs FAST MAIL's of AEM7's and MHC no pax cars.
The GG-1s were quite capable of hauling freight, and often did, especially after the demise of the P5/P5a units. The earlier motors (4800-4859(?)) were geared for 90mph running while the later ones were geared for 100+mph, as I recall (someone out there correct me if I'm wrong - I'm writing this at work and don't have access to my library) and consequently were the ones most often used for freight. The Morning Sun book Pennsy Electric Years has at least one picture of three GG-1s on the point of a freight but this was unusual - they normally worked singly or in pairs as required for the tonnage. The E-44s were supposed to take over all the freight duties from the P-5s but apparently didn't do the job as well as anticipated.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's a great GG1 freight picture if you guys have never seen it:
Penn Central GG1 4919 on Hell Gate Bridge
-Dave
Thanks Dave - I had seen it before but it's a good reminder (for all of us) of what's out on the site!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I like the GG-1 picture, but is that a freight train it's heading up? Those look like express cars ('REA Express'?) which would have more likely been on the head end of a passenger train, no?
Just curious.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Added to the fact is that 4919 is a passenger G - the freight G's were all low 4800's, and they were usually dirty. 4800 (Old Rivets) got the bicentenial paint scheme (poweder blue) since it pulled the Bi Special. It had been the "standard" Dirty Black (Brunswick Green) worn by freight G's.
Philip, Nice detailed post ! I only have one comment re:
[TurboTrain(tm) - Made by United Technologies in the 60's ...
A dismal failure.]
These also ran in Canada "CN ?" much longer, but I didn't pay attention to HOW they ran ... did CN get the bugs out ?
It's too bad P&W/United Tech didn't put more effort into making a better product. If they had we might have a lot of turbos running in this country AND P&WA wouldn't be so dependant on A/C engines.
P.S. I also wish Grumman would have kept making canoes ... anyone ever paddled down the Peconic River ... you start by Grummans plant & end up in Riverhead ... Cranbery bog to Crambery bog.
Mr t__:^)
The new tilting "high-speed" trainsets could conceivably run on the Keysone line to Harrisburg, as that city is the terminus of westward catenary. At present, Amtrak runs deisel locomotives 99% of the time on the route anyway (causing an annoying 20 min. engine switch in Philadelphia for trains originating in NYC). So I imagine the only thing changing for Keystone service will be the name.
If so few electric engines are used west of Philly, does that mean they will try to eliminate the catenaries there?
As observed in another thread, it would be penny-wise and pound-foolish to do so. Hopefully the additional motors that have been ordered will allow them to restore electric service to Harrisburg within the next couple of years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Hopefully the additional motors that have been ordered will allow them to restore electric service to Harrisburg within the next couple of years.]
If our prayers are answered!
I've read in trade publications that after Pueblo, the new Acela trainsets will be tested on the Main (Keystone) Line between Philly and Harrisburg.
I'd love to be a guinea pig passenger on those occasions.
Has anyone inquired of Amtrak about ticket availablity for the new service? I'd like to be one of the first passengers, but I have no connections with the powers that be. Curious if anyone has heard anything.
PF
I haven't - but if you do please post it, I'd like to join you!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The problem fare-wise is that Northeast Corridor (non-Metroliner) Amtrak service is actually competing with the bus lines, and its not really competing that well. For Philly-NY the fare is $76-90 RT. The bus is about 20 minutes slower and costs 1/3 to 1/2 as much and runs every 30 minutes. These busses are almost always packed too. Personally I'm willing to save $60 for 20 minutes of my time.
For NY-Boston the bus is faster and costs about half as much. Of course the electrification will improve this, but not by much.
From a financial standpoint, buses are the way to go. However, I am willing to pay extra for the increased leg-room, decreased incidence of having to suffer various foul odors, and the virtual elimination of the risk of traffic jams and minor weather delays. If Amtraks service were marketed with this in mind, perhaps more would ride and fares would become more competitive.
Hi Everyone,
I know that about 50% of the redbirds (series 7000-8000 commonly found on the #5 and some #4 trains) on the IRT are slated for retirement by year 2000. Fortunately, many R-33 and R-36 cars on the IRT #7 line will stick around a while since their replacement will take years (hopefully). But what about those wonderful R-32 (circa 1965) and R-38 (circa 1966/67) subway cars? Will the MTA keep those cars in service for many more years to come? Does anyone "in the know" have any details? Thanks, in advance, for the help....
Cheers,
MIKE
As far as I know there aren't even any plans afoot to replace the R-32s and R-38s. The R-32s and maybe the R-38s should be around for their fiftieth birthdays.
Actually, I was thinking that the WF cars would be some of the first to go. They spend almost their entire route running in the outdoors, in all types of weather, whereas the mainline cars spend about 1/2 their day underground. So I figure there's a lot more bondo on those WF cars.
-Hank
There's another big difference. The Redbirds have a carbon steel skin, which is more prone to corrosion than the stainless steel which sheaths the R-32s and R-38s.
I'll stake a lot on this prediction: the R-32s will wind up as the all-time champions from a longevity standpoint for subway cars. Heck, they might even threaten the record held by, I believe, the Q cars, some of which stayed around for 60 years.
We'll see what happens.
Now there's a man after my own heart - AGAIN! Imagine seeing an R32 or R38 still rumbling about in they year 2024 - or (even better) a reconditioned Slant R40 still running in 2028 (oh, I'm dreaming aren't I?) I'd be 74 years old then!
The only thing I must stress is this: At least ONE FULL CONSIST of each of these classic subway car fleets (R32, R38, R40, R40M/R42) must be saved for posterity, whether it be by NYCT itself, or one of the many museums around the country. Let's not repeat the mistake made by scuttling all the R10s and the R27s/R30s/R30As. AND DITTO FOR THE REDBIRDS - one consist of each type should be saved - maybe two each for the R33 and R36.
I was aghast when I found out that ALL (except for two) of the R10s had been sent to the scrapyard. I couldn't believe they did that- even the GOH cars were scrapped. What a waste!
Wayne
Agreed. If the cars are going to go out, then it's only fitting that they go to Museums that are willing to keep them. Save a few on the NYCT property for Nostalgia Specials! Then again, putting them in Museums like Seashore and Shoreline would give railfans like me a time at the controls of the train, even though I'm not in a subway environment. Who says you have to be a TA employee to operate equipment on a leisurely basis?
I certainly hope my friends at the Shoreline Trolley Museum will be able to grab more NYCT cars. If they get at least an R33 World's Fair Car, I'd be happy (it would be a good companion for 6688). Speaking of R Types, the R17 is preparing for cosmetic surgery as it gets a fresh coat of paint (still redbird red) for the first time since it was on NYCT property.
I'm going to see if I can look around for more cars to put on Dave's Museum Page. Remember folks, that these cars don't necessarily have to saved in a Museum to be considered preserved; a car (from a particular class) that hasn't been scrapped is appropriate for posting on Mr. Pirmann's page.
-Constantine
> posting on Mr. Pirmann's page.
Mr! You make me sound so old :-)
-Dave
Well, better that that having us middle-aged coots call you a kid!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The one problem I had with the R17 at the Shoreline Trolley Museum was that advertisments. Heck they had MetroCard signs up in the car.
Was there a R17 running anywhere in the TA system when the Metrocard came out??
Sorry Lou, that you didn't like the advertisements. The R17 was NOT around when the MetroCard came out. 6688 was retired from revenue service in 1988, and she made her way to Branford shortly thereafter. My colleagues put up the MetroCard advertisements just to use up the space on the car. If they have the more appropriate 1987 and 1988 stuff, then it can be put up, and there would be no problem.
If there were R17s running in the system, then it would have been for work service, not revenue service.
Regards,
Constantine
I particularly like the "BRT" map that still exists in one of the subways at Branford !
Mr t__:^)
Metrocard ads?! BARRRFFFF! Lou (from Brooklyn), why didn't you
point that out to us? Sorry, one of our members must have been
a naughty railfan and put that car card up for amusement value.
I seem to recall that BMT standard 2775 also has some ads which were put in after it had been retired from revenue service.
If you're speaking of a GOH R-33 Redbird, would it still be compatible with 6688? Weren't the pin portions redone from 39 pins or whatever the number was to 52 during GOH?
There could be a compatability problem, but it seems unlikely. I recall the R17s running in trains of R36s on the Flushing Line during the time the R33 World's Fair Cars were being overhauled. Most if not all equipment, should be compatable with the exception of the cars that have different couplers (R44/46). I can tell you that the R44s and 46s are not compatable because of electrical issues. I think the worst thing that could happen with putting pre GOH cars and GOH cars together is the GOH cars might have a little more pulling power.
Can Jeff or Steve help out?
-Constantine
Of course Shore Line would NOT be interested in any of the GOH
redbirds, but purely as an academic question, I wouldn't advise
making an electric coupling between cars with 3 row electric
portions and 4 row cars. You'd have a row of pins hanging out
and probably shorting out. There shouldn't be any problem if
you push back the electric portion slide lock at the back of the
coupler first and make it an air-iron job only.
Here is some Subway dope about the film SERPICO for the movie list.
There is a background shot of a train crossing the Williamsburg Bridge.
There is a quick seen where Pacino, standing on the Ditmars Blvd. Elevated platform, spots a burglary in progress.
There is a scene in the 57th Street Station where Pacino and his partner try in vain to get potato chips out of a platform vending machine.
There is a scene where Pacino and pals celebrate the news of Serpico's blowing the whistle on NYC cops and they enter the UPTOWN BMT at TIMES SQUARE.
How do I call up that movie list???
The movie list is at:
http://www.nycsubway.org/biblio/movies.html
I'll add Serpico to it.
-Dave
Don't forget Class of '44, which featues the Triplexes.
Also do not forget in the Serpico movie, where the cops are talking in the park in the Bronx at the Grand Concourse and 161st street, in the background is the Jerome Ave #4 train Yankee Stadium-161 Street stop.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
This morning, as usual, I rode the BSS out of City Hall.
On the train, I got three pleasant surprises.
A: ANNOUNCEMENTS! Clear ones! The conductor wowed me with "This is a Broad St. express servicing Race-Vine, Spring Garden, Girard, Erie, Olney and Fern Rock Transportation Center....".
I haven't heard that in so long! He called out station stops, connecting bus and rail and get this-he advised passengers of rules of travel(no smoking, drinking, eating, etc) and said "Good Morning"!
That made my day.
B: The heat-was on! The car( I believe #577) was warmer than usual. Is SEPTA keeping their promise?
C: Halogen lights? Maybe not, but car #507 was brighter than any BSScar I've ever seen!
So, maybe there's hope for us all. Even SEPTA.
Jack, please report that operator to Mr. Leary and he/she will surely be reprimanded, retrained and reassigned!
I had a similar operator for about 4 months on my morning bus ride. She was pleasant, friendly, helpful, etc. With the February schedule changes, the run went back to reality - a surly operator (male) who only knows two pedals (accelerator and that other one next to it which must always be applied as if one were trying to smash it), can't tell time or read his schedule, can't pull to the curb at stops, etc. This is the SEPTA we've grown to know and love!
Friday evening March 19, 1999 7 p.m.
monthly Electric Railroaders Association meeting
extensive slide show on NYC subway 1984 thur 1989
location: downtown Manhattan 3 blocks north of WTC
Call 718 224 - 6824 evenings for invitation and information
I'm a NYCTA conductor in the BMT/IND right now and I'll be the first to tell you, it's not what it used to be. Growing up I developed, like all of you a love for this system. I'm not going to go into the details of the testing or how long it tkes to get the job after, except to say that I was list #70 after scoring a perfect 100% and it still took four and a half years to get the job!
After a completely inadequate 5 weeks of training you will be thrown to the wolves. I say it's not enough, because you aren't given sufficient time to learn each line's physical charicteristics. Where are the short stations? At what stop do the High School kids get on?
Passengers will spit at you. You will be routinely cursed at by people who think that it is their personal train. People will ask for addresses in neighborhoods far from any train station, and when you don't know, they will get mad at you.
Learn how to skip meals. TA writes the work programs for robots. A train will arrive at a terminal late(typical) and since you only have 16 minutes of a break, take away the 3 min lateness and the two min ahead of departure time you have to be on the train, and the 5 min round trip walk to the bathroom, well, learn to hold it, because god forbid you need to stop the train down the line to use the bathroom! This is so they can squeeze an extra trip out of you, and cut another conductor's job. That's called productivity!
As for respect from your bosses? That went the way of the R9. Management expects you to always be on time, and nevermiss a day of work. If you are sick, be prepared for a supervisor to visit your home. If you make a mistake (and it's always YOUR mistake never theirs) then kiss your job goodbye. There is no room for for forgiveness at TA.
The restroom facilities for the crew's look worse than ANY I've ever seen. That's how your multi million dollar profit (I refuse to call it a surplus, I'm too honest) came to be.
Dispatchers will beg you to do them favors like making an extra trip when they are short. But you better ask mom for money if YOU need over time.
Don't get me wrong. I love this railroad and I feel like I won the lottery most days. Nothing beets the feeling when a passenger recognizes you and say's "You're a great Conductor" But I'm also grounded enough to never trust the TA, and I've seen enough to really hate management. Please understand how most of them, dispite having been conductors or motormen at one time trully hold the rest of us in contempt!
So now all you aspiring Conductors know the whole story. Two more things. One; We are not doormen, nor announcers. We are in charge of the train. Yes opening doors and speaking over the PA is what we do most. But our responsibility is the safety of our passengers and train. You are the boss, learn you job as well as you can ( TA won't teach you all you need to know) and manage your trains time effectively. There is way more time in the schedrule than you need, so most trains run early. Hence the holding lights we all hate. The mark of a trully professional conductor is one who is never early. There's always an excuse for being late, what's the one for being early?
Two; Murphy's law has a twin in the subway, it's conductors law.
The pretty girl never gets on in your car. If she does, then she's getting off at the next stop. If she stays on, then she must be married.
People wait for trains. Trains don't wait for people.
If, a passenger isn't standing in front of the doors when the train stops. Then they will be standing there when the train leaves.
Good Luck
Isn't that the truth. My son is takeing the Conductors Exam. But he knows what hes in for he rode my train and learning the job since he was 9 YRS old. Hes now 17 YRS old and been on the trains with me on my 3 trips every weekend and Vacation. The crew think of him as one of us. Some dicarage him and others promote him. He knows what its like to go in and out at Termanals like all of us transit employees know it. But is still is going for it. Good Luck to all! But take into consideration its a combat zone out there. But don't let it stop you if your really into the job.
I did it for a year in the early '60's running streetcars for Baltimore Transit out of York Road Car House. I had cold cars in the winter (nothing like 8 hours in the seat during a snowstorm with ice frozen on your trousers), passengers that didn't know from s*** where they were going, or were they were. Like Erik said, the pretty girls were either sitting in the back, or if not, married. The folks who wouldn't walk out when the car came if their lives depended on it. Idiots who thought the streetcar was their personal lunchroom, sat in the back and thought I couldn't see them smoking. Transfers rolled up in a ball, at rush hour with 40 other people getting on, half of which needed change. Coupling a disabled car to a live one for a "Drag Job" - in the driving rain, then working the rest of the day damp. After 8 L-O-N-G hours, go home, and start the whole thing all over again the next day.
And I loved it. I refused to drive buses, and in 1966 signed on with the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. It's 33 years later, I'm still there, and I still love streetcars!
Every job has its share of headaches! The job I currently do is a high-pressure one, to say the least (I work in information services/technology). However, I see writing on the wall a few years down the way - it spells "obsolescence". My father, an ex-NYCT employee who joined late in life (in 1970 at age 55) as an air brake maintainer, is very happy with his retirement benefits. He knows the place I work has no retirement package. However modest the NYCT retirement package may be, it is better than none. Plus, if I get accepted, I get to work in one of my favorite places on earth, doing what I have always hoped I could do. For that alone I think can put up with whatever [expletive] may come my way. I certainly put up with enough of it right now.
Wayne
As a bus operator I felt the same way as Mr Dina. I loved the aspect of driving the bus but dealing with New Yorkers is not easy. Management at times may not be very friendly either. But as a dispatcher now I see the other side of the coin and why management may sometimes want to crack the whip. Now I deal with 100's of different bus operators and 90% are great who sometimes need a little reminder here and there while the other 10% are the trouble makers who can never work with me as a their supevisor and always need correction. The best part is that occasionally I will operate a bus to move it to the depot and I still love driving the bus.
As was said before on this page, you still have a small group of transit proffesionals who love transit or some aspect of it as is evidence by those who frequent this page unlike the majority who do it just for a paycheck.
I have been a Station Agent for just over 1 year. We have it rough too. If we need to use the restroom we have to call up supervision and ask. They will ask us" can you wait"
Lunch- we have 30 minutes, and that is if the lunch relief shows up--many lunch reliefs are pulled by supervision to man booths so we'll get a call from supervision "I'm paying you for lunch- what's your pass number?"
We have nasty customers banging on the booth and asking us for non-existent directions or they say " I want to go Uptown". I ask where and they say "Uptown". I ask "Which Station" and they say "Look, I want to go uptown!!" I answer "Yes, I know you want to go uptown but which station or which street." Meanwhile, the line behind them is growing in length and their tempers get short-the line starts screaming. Finally they "Uptown" walks away cussing you for not knowing where they wanted to go and tells us "#@%@" or "You should retire." I respond "Have a good day. Thank you for riding."
Or the person who gives us $12 in dimes and nickels and wants a Metrocard. Oh, by the way -they wont let us count their money! and we do count the money. meanwhile, the line is growing and ...
I could go on, but you get the point.
I still enjoy the job--sure the facilities in many station are worthy of being condemned but I am a public servant and I am there to serve my customers. We are professionals.
I have been fascinated with the subways since I was a young child to the extent of "playing subways" rather than more traditional play activities. I left a job with the federal government to work for transit and I'm glad I did. Just remember- no job is perfect. Every job has things you want to change.
I took the station agent test last Dec 98 and i haven't recieve my score yet. So how long it take you to call you? How many weeks of training? Does you go to diffirent booth?
I took the test October 1996. I was called for first interview August 1997, drug test fall 1997 and final physical January 1998. I started class 3/8/1998. Training is four weeks in a classroom. You get one day in a booth observing someone else and two days of actually working in a booth with an experienced station agent to help you but you are in charge. Then you go back to class and take your final exam. You will be what they call extra extra. You may get to choose AM, PM or nights or you may be assigned to one tour. You will call each day, during what would be work hours on your tour for your job for the next workday. ON your second day off, you call for the job on your first day back at work. I work nights- that means from 1am to 4am I call for the job for the next work day. I am off Tuesday and Wednesday. On wednesday night(thureday am) at 1am-4am I call for the job for Thursday Night.
You will tell them in class where your home station is. This is a station where you live or perhaps near the baby sitter and you will pick a pay location where you will pick up your paycheck every two weeks. Expect to go all ovet the four boroughs. (We do not go to Staten Island).
Good luck- I look forward to seeing you on the road.(I might relieve you or you might relieve me--who knows!). e-mail me if you have morwe questions.
Oh, yes- You also spend one dayt at Coney Island Yard for fire school and "Universal Studios Coney Island"( A surprise awaits there! I'd spoil it if I said more!)
Geez, you keep my hours....
Lemme know if you ever work Wall St on the 2/3....
-Hank :)
You said it: no job is perfect. There are some things you just have to deal with.
Before you lose respect for supervisors, think about why they ask you to follow the rules, show up on time, ask you to be in uniform, point at the board etc. If everyone followed the rules and regulations, did not run their train hot and so forth, nobody would ever get written up.
Nobody said a transit life is easy. I've worked for the TA for 7 years in four RTO titles and I have seen all the different angles. There is good and bad in every title but upper management only recognizes the bad, with no reward for the good. The only good thing is that you can screw up several times and keep your job. In the private sector, you screw up once and you're out of a job. Maybe i'm going to sound like a hardass but maybe that's the problem, we as supervisors look the other way too much. I think the real problem is that there is not enough consistency among supervisors in enforcing the rules.
Thats true, as a transit buff I expect more from my operators especially concerning uniforms, running on time, and having general pride in their position. However my immediate supervisors and fellow dispatchers are really not overly concerned by such issues so I have discovered that just basically doing my 8 hours and going home is the best policy. I still enforce the above rules but I now handle such promblems on my own terms and dont really bother with writing violations any more. I made the mens room at Manhattanville depot with 2 months as a supervisor for just doing my job and not really being a hard ass. Still love the daily challanges of being a supervisor.
Ahhh, refreshing to see that supervision is the same Stateside...!!!
As a Duty Crew Supervisor myself, sitting on the fence between what is required (by management) and what is achievable (your resources) is NO easy place to sit.
Having writing about yourself in the mens room happens to us all.....
but at the end of the day we are theire to run a service.... Would the customer rather have a cancelled train due to the operator not being in full uniform...or have a service with the operator not lookinh his/her best ???
The challenge of the job is the best bet... 10 trains 10 drivers no fun..... 10 trains 7 drivers but all 10 run is what the job is all about.........
Keep up the good work Mr MaBSTOA.........!!
:^)
Regards
Rob London UK
and remember...
"The higher up the tree you climb - the more you show your bottom"
{I made the mens room at Manhattanville depot with 2 months as a supervisor....}
Wow, how long does it usually take to get to the men's room?
-Hank :)
(I assume I'm misiterpeting this.....)
Hank...Lol lol :^), 2 months before writing about supervisors makes the washroom walls.............
you can tell a good crew supervisor by what is written about him/her in the washrooms/toilets..........
Mainly questioning ones parentage and the like, this graffiti usually makes out that one supervisor is better than the next etc etc...sadly this type of graffiti sometimes spreads to include driving cabs and other lineside equipment. On the railways here in England the following usually applies:
Crew Supervisor takes duty,
He/She has to do everything as the previous shift did nothing
and you have done everything for the next shift.........
Next Crew supervisor books on......
The situation repeats itself... the last shift did nothing and has left it all for me to do, but i have sorted things for the next shift......
.
Funny business i'm sure!!! But EVERY depot has its good and bad supervisors, maybe a bit like the good cop- bad cop routine....
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Generally the rule is when you enforce the rules and operators don't like you you make the wall, which usually takes years of being an established dispatcher. Superindents or General Superindents are generally more apt to be on the wall because they are more of the enforcer of the rules.
As a practical matter, the on time expectation may be asking too much. Most bus schedules' recovery time at the end points is insufficient. Traffic condtions make buses late. A wheelchair customer will make a bus late. As a rookie supervisor, you are no longer "one of us", you are now "one of them"; I frankly look at a fellow motorman-made-supervisor differently than when he was my equal.
If an operator arrives 5 minutes ahead at the end of the line, has a 18 minute recovery and then leaves 5 minutes late for no good reason I wont be looking at him in a good light either!
Im not a heartless individual, but being a nice guy and being taken advantage of are two things. If an operator is my friend then he will be sure to do the right thing by me and I will reciprocate when possible. There are times when an operator has blown his recovery and I will tell him to take 5 to go to the bathroom or to smoke a cigarette, especially on long lines like the M101 and Q32.
One thing to remember is that nobody makes dispatcher before being an operator and I was an operator on the same lines I supervise now. I know what makes a bus late.
I've become a bit concerned that we haven't had enough multi-billion dollar fantasies on the site lately -- the RPA has us beat with Metrolink, so who are the real fans.
Here is my scenario. In my view, the subway actually has plenty of capacity, its just poorly distributed (ie all west of 5th Avenue and East of 9th). Adding stations and lines adds cost. Unless there are enough riders to pay for it, you end up with fewer trains per line. And waiting is bad.
So build the 2nd Avenue subway (two tracks, as proposed in the 1960s). But to save money, sell the four track BMT Broadway line to the commuter railroads (for their Great White Way non-subway connector to Lower Manhattan) and the Port Authority (for their service to LaGuardia).
To add two more tracks, build the 10th Avenue subway. Extend to the 60th St line to 10th Avenue -- stop and Columbus Circle for transfer -- and down 10th Avenue to 14th St, then over to the BMT 14th St line. Trains could run from Astoria and Forest Hills to Canarsie, changing to/from north-south routes all along the way.
So you'd have four track lines on 8th, 6th, and 4th Avenue, and two track lines on 2nd and 10th -- with an extra IRT line on 7th, and a couple of crosstowns. Hey, its only a couple of billion more. We could name it the Joe DiMaggio subway, since it would pass by the new Yankee Stadium.
Can the old elevated structure near 10th Avenue that once carried New York Central freights be rehablilitated for this use? Might save enough money to actually make this projet affordable. How many people would complain about train noise considering where the old freight el is? Maybe even add in a line to serve the Upper West Side along the Amtrak (I mean, Acela) right-of way.
Any new elevated line in Manhattan not along the West Side Highway (or Joe DiMaggio Highway or whatever) would produce a major NIMBY outbreak, while the city might be wary of doing a 10th Ave. subway, since that's the avenue they put Water Tunnel No. 3 under (though admittedly, any subway would be way above the water tunnel's level)
I've seen where the el is. It's quite close to the highway south of 34th Street. If anybody complains about trains then they can either hear better than a dog or have a serious hatred of subways (if that's the case then I suggest those damn NIMBY losers head for some small country town in the middle of Nowhere, where there won't be any subways to bother their precious little NIMBY lives). I suggest the new line make use of the Amtrak tunnel that Empire Corridor trains use to head upstate. It's close enough to the West Side Highway. I didn't hear anyone complain when Empire Corridor trains moved to Penn Station using that line. NIMBYs, if you live in Manhattan, there will be noise. That's what you get in a city. Better get used to it.
(If you live in Manhattan you will get noise). They passed a noise code which says that at any hour of the day, the noise noticeable in ones dwelling must be quieter than the humm of the refrigerator -- no matter whether your window is open or closed. The fines are draconian. Manhattan fails, so any NIMBY can sick the quality of life police on anyone anytime.
I still think the thing to do is to extend the L to:
10th Ave here it would turn north)
The New Penn Terminal
42nd (connection with the 7 extension)
North of 42nd it should jog West and run up the NY Central Cut
50th
57th (continuing via the cut to the new Trump development
65th Street
Then a 72nd street stop would be a terminus with the front end of the train meeting a newly renovated connection station at 72nd and Broadway. And West End Ave. exits on the back end of the train.
Meanwhile, the 7 train would continue West on 42nd Street, connect with the L at 10th Avenue. The back end of the 7 would exit into Port Authority. Next the 7 would head southwest under the maze of Lincoln tunnel over passes and stop right in front of the Javits Center on 11th Avenue and countiue down 11th Ave.
Stops at: 34th
23rd
14th(where a walkway would connect to the L at 10th Ave.)
4th Street
Canal
And finally 2 stops in Battery Park City
The Broadway Plan sounds good, but how do you connect the Broadway tracks with the commuter lines north of 57th steet, i.e. 63rd street lower level and the Park ave line, with the maze of existing subway lines and the existing connection with the 6th Avenue line. The FRA would require separation of commuter lines and Rapid transit. Also wouldn't you want to connect the south end to the LIRR Atlantic Branch as well?
Where could I find a track map of the original 1904 subway as it was when it opened? I assume that there have been some switching changes since then, at the very least on 42nd street.
In the NY Daily News Thursday March 11, page 30, is an article about some of the city's most powerful business leaders - among them titans of communications and finance - are mounting a campaign to have new subway lines built throughout NYC.
The leaders, including Time Warner President Richard Parsons, Tishman Speyer Properties chief Jerry Speyer and Lowes Hotel head Jonathan Tisch.
After the good folks of Subtalk read the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I'm also campaigning to have a new subway line built.
I haven't seen the article yet, but without doubt, having the city's big shots get behind a push for subway construction can help a lot. It's worth pondering whether the Second Avenue subway would have been built by now had the affluent people living on the Upper East Side demanded it. In my view, their failure to mount a campaign for the line is a large part of the reason why it doesn't exist. Hopefully things are changing now.
I'm glad to see the drumbeat of publicity in favor of public works. You need it to drown out the NIMBYS.
Not to mention the hospitals industry. Have your heard all the "studies," reports, and press releases demanding more public money for health care -- an areas where we already spend more than anyone else? The hospital industry says its dying -- but its employment keeps going up and up. I guess they figure if they put more than 50 percent of the population on the payroll, they will have the political power to demand that the other 50 percent pay whatever they demand.
Remember, the money is there, but others are grabbing it. At the national average we'd be spending a billion more per year on transportation -- just in the city, just in the local level. If the federal and state governments (not to mention the Port Authority) returned its fair share, there'd be hundreds of millions more.
More for schools and transportation, and no cutting the poor off from their only means of subsistence if they are willing to work. Less for the Democratic health and social service pork machine, and the suburban and Upstate Republican civil service pork machine. Employment in these pork machines IS GOING UP!!!!
Yes, drown out out the NIMBYs and drum 'em out of the city. I always knew the money for subways was there. How nice to see the career politicians siphon it off to bloated bureaucracies that sure as hell don't need it. Maybe it's them we also need to drum out, out of office that is. Let the politicians go live with the NIMBYs. You'll hear the politicians propose a new highway or hospital and the NIMBYs respond, "Not in MY backyard!" And we won't have to be bothered with them, because they'll be so far away from New York, so nobody will care.
Oh how wonderful it is to dream.
Even powerful business leaders want new subway lines, just like the rest of us do. So let's have 'em!
I'm with you
The article is here:
http://www.nydailynews.com/1999-03-11/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-22168.asp
Another daily news article on 2nd Avenue subway
Washington is spending all that money on finishing the Metro Green line and talking about building and Orange Line spur to Dulles, and they're warning New York about building time and disruptions for a subway? Officials in D.C. really are more full of it than anyplace else on the planet.
Uhh... The "washington" in the article is actually the deputy mayor of N.Y.C., Rudy Washington. (Read carefully and you'll see)
You're right. I need to stop reading stories on low-resolution laptops.
'tis okay. It happened to me too.
On my wish list:
Houston Street to Metropolitan Avenue to (at least) Jamaica
- relieves crowding on the E and F and the horrendous traffic on
Metropolitan Avenue
Northern Boulevard to (at least) Flushing - relieves crowding
on the 7 line
Union Turnpike east of Queens Boulevard - hooks up with E and
F and the above Metropolitan Avenue Line
Extend the E and F while we're at it
Extend the 3 and 4 to Howard Beach and JFK
125th Street Line in Manhattan to LaGuardia
Extend the L and 7 and above Houston Street and 125th Street
Lines to New Jersey
10th Avenue Line
And of course 2nd Avenue Line
Just a dream, I know.
More later,
Peter
Not much there for Bedford Park Blvd, or Brooklyn. Things are in bad shape in the Borough of Kings. I don't see how you could have a massive plan and leave Brooklynites dependent on two cracking bridges.
Easy - I live in Queens. :-)
I know what roads in Queens could use a train running
underneath; don't know much about Brooklyn.
Looking a a map, seems that the 2 and 5 can be extended
along Nostrand or Flatbush Avenues, 3 and 4 to Howard
Beach and JFK. My Houston Street/Metropolitan Avenue
idea would serve Williamsburg well.
But there's already more subway in Brooklyn - and there
are 8 subway tunnels/bridges to Brooklyn as opposed to
four for Queens - let us catch up!
I didn't even mention my idea of a subway from JFK up
Rockaway Boulevard to Jamaica, up Main Street to
Flushing, up Ditmars Boulevard to LaGuardia, continuing
on Ditmars to Wards Island and across 110 Street (or 125
street) and connecting with the new 10th Avenue line.
And tunneling under the Hudson of course.
125 street would be good for Metro-North commuters wanting
to get to LaGuardia and JFK. So what the heck - I'm
dreaming, so do both.
This in addition to the airport direct links. Seems to
me that much community opposition to the idea in
southern Queens is due to there being no stops along
the way for southern Queens residents. So give them
a Rockaway Boulevard/Main Street subway.
Ah, if it were only that easy.
Go to Flatbush and see there is a wall there. The station is shaped like a horseshoe. But I guess if the wall was put up then it can be taken down. I also think that the 3 could and should be extended to Queens.(Possibly JFK). But like you said, it is easy to dream......
(8 subway tunnels/bridges in Brooklyn vs. 4 in Queens). I wouldn't count on the bridges for more than a decade or two. The city made the BMT build the 60th St tunnel so Queens wouldn't rely on heavy service on the bridges. Should have done it in Brooklyn too. That leaves 4 tunnels for Queens, and 6 for Brooklyn, but the Cranberry serves Queens also.
And, Queens has two LIRR tunnels, and a proposal for another, which would put Queens ahead 9 to 8, although obviously these are shared with Nassau, Suffolk, and Amtrack. I'm not sure affluent eastern Queens wants subways. The might want the higher cost but faster and more comfortable commuter rail service -- the less well off can bus to the subway. Perhaps you should think in terms of more LIRR lines when the 63rd St opens, and creates capacity. What about that Kissena Corridor?
True about the LIRR - though running a subway from JFK to
LGA and on to uptown would serve South Jamaica, Kew Garden
Hills, Flushing, Corona, Steinway, Astoria, and Harlem -
not all very affluent areas.
Besides, Forest Hills is the most affluent and expensive
area of Queens, in no small part due to the excellent
LIRR *and* express subway service.
Looking forward to the reactivation of the LIRR Rockaway
branch, too. I'm not sure who the opposed "community leaders"
the Queens Chronicle constantly quotes are. Probably a bunch
of useless old biddies. Noise, shmoise. Anything that will
connect a neighborhood to Manhattan quicker can only make
the neighborhood more desirable.
And I live right next to the LIRR tracks between Kew Gardens
and Forest Hills, so I can say that.
Speaking of the LIRR, anyone else think that the solution
to declining ridership on the Long Island City branch
stations would have been to add trains to make a more
reliable service, not close the stations? Of course nobody
was going to use the Glendale station if there were only
two trains a day...
You sound like a young guy, so you may not know this, but Geraldine Ferraro launched her political career by fighting against a proposal to turn the Glendale-LIC branch into a subway. It would have connected to the 63rd St tunnel, and run through to SE Queens. It was thought that the line would attract (outsiders) to move in from both directions. Perhaps she was right. At the time, the subway might have brought in middle-income minorities looking for better housing; today, it might bring a swarm of Yuppies. Along with Staten Island, Glendale, Ridgewood, Maspeth, Middle Village, etc. are the last holdout of Archie Bunker in NYC. You just can't get there.
[Geraldine Ferraro launched her political career by fighting
against a proposal to turn the Glendale-LIC branch into a subway. It would have connected to the 63rd St tunnel, and run through to SE Queens. It was thought that the line would attract (outsiders) to move in from both directions. Perhaps she was right. At the time, the subway might have brought in middle-income minorities looking for better housing; today, it might bring a swarm of Yuppies. Along with Staten Island, Glendale, Ridgewood, Maspeth, Middle Village, etc. are
the last holdout of Archie Bunker in NYC. You just can't get there.]
Yet the ironic part is that most of the Long Island City line runs through industrial or otherwise non-residential areas. Only Richmond Hill (which already has subway service) and a section of Glendale are residential. And those parts of Glendale certainly don't look like an East Coast version of Beverly Hills.
If the subway plan had ever come to pass, my guess is that it would have been a boost to outer parts of Queens but would have had little effect in Glendale etc.
If Glendale doesn't want the subway, just don't put a stop there. With the overcrowding on the E/F, I'm sure an alterative route between Jamaica and LIC would still carry enough passengers to offset the absence of a source of fares in one area.
>>What about that Kissena Corridor?
I don't actually know what that is, although I've seen the park of the same name on maps. Can anyone fill me in?
(Kissena corridor) I'm not sure, but I think there used to be a railroad there. If so, maybe we could put one back with a bike path next to it.
[(Kissena corridor) I'm not sure, but I think there used to be a railroad there. If so, maybe we could put one back with a bike path next to it.]
Indeed there once was a railroad there. It was the Central Branch RR, which ran from Flushing to Babylon. Its route through Queens is now the Kissena Corridor Park and the Kissena Park Golf Course, as well as parts of Cunningham Park. On a Queens street map, notice the unusual alignments of Peck Avenue and Stewart Road as they cross Union Turnpike just to the east of Bell Boulevard. They are a remnant of the Central Branch's right of way. The line itself was abandoned in Queens many decades ago, although a spur into the Creedmore mental hospital (off the LIRR mainline in Floral Park) lasted until ~35 years ago.
Much of the Central Branch's right of way in Long Island remains in use to this day. The LIRR's Hempstead line uses the right of way as far as Garden City. The r-o-w then runs east as a little-used freight line called the Garden City Secondary, almost as far as the Meadowbrook Parkway (by the way, the circus train is now on this line). The r-o-w then cut through what's now Eisenhower Park, then to the north of the Nassau County Money Pit, er, Medical Center into Levittown. Electric lines use the r-o-w through Levittown. Interesting note: the Central Branch (by then part of the LIRR) was used to transport building materials during Levittown's construction in the late 1940s, then abandoned. Finally, the eastern part of the Central Branch, from Bethpage to Babylon, is now part of the LIRR's Montauk line.
I doubt if the Kissena corridor is going to be reclaimed, since most of it is now homes and playgrounds.
Just for fun(but true!)
The past few mornings I have seen a new car parked on my block, plate # JMZ-1239.
To say nothing of (could this be a railfan's plate?) IRT-1904 which I mentioned a while ago.
I doubt if they're vanity plates. JMZ is valid, but the only car bearing the number 1239 which could have ever run out there would have been the R-6, and AFAIK, none of the R-6s were sent to the Eastern Division. Unless, of course, there was an open platform gate car by that number. What do you think, Karl B?
When we moved to New Jersey, we were issued MEG-924 license plates for our car. Nothing special about that, right? Get this: our next door neighbors in South Bend, whose house number was 924, had a daughter just before we left, whom they named Megan. I remember being at her baptism. Talk about coincidence.
[re JMZ 1239]
It could belong to someone who likes the Eastern Division and the Boradway-7th Avenue IRT ...
That's what I was thinking also.
The closest number that I can remember to 1239 would have to be an OP gate car (painted green of course) # 1227 which happened to be one of my favorites. There were a lot of 1200's that ran on the Jamaica Line to 111th St, but there were a lot of missing numbers in the 1200 series too. I'll have to get into the warehouse and see if I can find my number lists.
Talking about unusual plates, I have a neighbor whose license plate begins with AGH. How would you like to drive around with that on the back of your car?
You kept number lists, too?!? Wayne, are you listening to this? You two could compare notes sometime. And to think all I ever did was to write down marker light combinations back in 1984.
Speaking of license plates, how does UGH grab you? Or DUI?
It seems that most people I know who like to walk and use mass transit, to the extent they have cars, have really old/cheap/nerdy cars, as a point of pride, and like to keep them running deep into old age. Do I over-generalize here? Is it just a Brooklyn thing? Or is spending less (or nothing on a car part of the payoff of transit for everyone. I know it is for me.
Why would you buy a good car, when for the most part a subway or bus will take you anywhere you want?
If you don't use it much you don't mind so much that it's old. If you don't use it much it lasts longer since you don't put on many miles.
When my brother in law lived in Manhattan he stored its 20 year old volvo in Brooklyn for $300 per month. ( two trains to get to it) He rarely used it and could have rented a car when he needed one, not to mention the insurance costs.
When he moved out to the prospect park he still never used it but just had to move it around once in a while.
Please pardom my ignorance, but can someone educate me on the difference between these two ?
- I know the Bombardier R-142 was slated for IRT service, but don't know where they plan to put Kawaski's R-142A.
- Are these two similar in design (size, capacity, etc.)
- Also how many of the (test) R-110As are still in service ?
Mr t__:^)
> I know the Bombardier R-142 was slated for IRT service, but don't
> know where they plan to put Kawaski's R-142A.
Also on the IRT.
> Are these two similar in design (size, capacity, etc.)
Yes.
> Also how many of the (test) R-110As are still in service ?
I think all 10 cars are available again.
--Mark
I think all 10 cars are available again.
I believe that statement is true, and there have been various reports that the R110A can be found on both the 2 and the 5, but on the 5 it can't stop at Court Square because of the moving platforms.-Nick
COURT Square?! Don't you mean UNION Square?
There is no Court Sq on the IRT! If you mean Union Sq well all trains make a nice station stop. The No.5 can stop at any station with a gap filler.
Whoops! I did mean Union Sq., sorry for the confusion!
The No.5 can stop at any
station with a gap filler.
I don't know about this, there have been postings that the R110A cannot stop at Union Square.-Nick
It can. At least it did both times I rode the R-110A down Lexington.
Well, there is a CourtHOUSE Square, but I'm sure there is no moving platform there.
R142 and R142a for IRT R143 for IND
Sorry I refuse to say the train hit the passanger, the train had the right to be there.
Thursday morning all Northbound (citybound) Brighton Serivce (D/Q) was halted. D trains were told to stop and stay, Q serivce went to the layup tracks at Brighton Beach (2 Q's in station, 3 trains on the layup). A passanger was struck by a train at Church Ave or 7th Ave depending on which radio report you listened to. Block Transfers were issued at Kings Highway for pax to take the bus (B82) to the F and the F was over crowded.
Now WHY were D trains rerouted from Stillwell over the N line instead of express over the B or even better OVER THE F to relieve the extra crowding from PAX taking buses or walking over to the F. Is the track layout at Stillwell not allow a D from their track to the F line?
Yes, things were screwed up this morning. I walked up to the IRT and Grand Army and saw scores descending to the train, and it was packed.
You're right, why not re-route Brighton Service over the F? The trains would have to reverse, but that is not impossible.
Pehaps because they expect things to be cleared up quickly enough that it would be a waste to re-route. Indeed, by 8:20 the train were running normally again. But if the Manhattan Bridge were closed, would you want to go 15 minutes south and THEN north on your way in?
D trains rerouted over the F don't have to reverse. Send them through CI Yard and let them start service at Ave X & McDonald Ave via he Culver Yard connections. I know the MTA probably doesn't like passengers or revenue trains in the yard like that, but in extreme circumstances it could be done.
--Mark
Good idea, especially since the track from the Yard enters on the Culver's express track, and I assume that any re-routed Brighton would go express. Perhaps it should be standard operating procedure.
When the A/B tracks on the Manhattan Bridge close, the Q could run local from Kings Highway south then up the Culver, and the D could start north of Kings Highway and over the H tracks. The fact that the Q would run express and avoid bottlenecks might cancel out the time lost to back-tracking.
No, they can't do that. From the yard track, you have to cross over the CI bound local track, and this would probably interfere with F service.
I had thought of extending Culver service to Bay Pkway on the west End Line, but that too would have a problem, because of the switch layout north of Stillwell (track 6 becomes D2, and from track 5 you have to switch to D2, and this is before (going north) the switch from D2 to D1, so both directions would be sharing a stretch of track)
Correction: They did do just that-- sent the Manhattan bound D's through the yard and to the Culver middle; on Jan 27 due to a broken rail on the Manhattan Bridge, I just found out in the ERA Bulletin I just got. (The Q only went to Whitehall, and the B to 36th)
I don't know how long they could run it like this, though.
They won't send D exp over the west end because they use the middle track for M putins and relays.
It is possible to send D trains over the F line from STL .
While at Stilwell, the were putting in Q's from the yard of the N side of the terminal when service was restored (8:20ish). I guess with Brighton Beach all full up they sent some Q's to the yard.
The passenger was hit at Seventh Avenue--the police had the end of the platform roped off and TA personnel were scrubbing it down with bleach. Haven't heard if s/he fell or was pushed. It's been a pretty gruesome week in Prospect Heights and the north Slope.
At the hour of the morning that this occurred, there is alot of activity going in and out of Stillwell Avenue,Stillwell Yard and Coney Island Yard. The idea is to get the trains rolling. Keep them in service. It takes a few minutes to make sure the D train is empty at Stillwell Av. Then you have to make the move through Coney Island Yard....ten miles an hour in the yard and five miles an hour on the loop(which it would access from the Delta track, the lead from Stillwell N)then there might be an F or two put ins still leaving the yard by Av X. This takes time.
It makes more sense to leave it in service and run it up Fourth Av.
The main reason is probably one that is much further up the line. If you run the D over the F, it will have to switch from 2 track(northbound local) to 4 track (northbound express) just north of 34th St and 6th Av. This is not something you really want to do during the height of rush. In addition to D service being messed up due to the reroute, you also delay B service at 34th and F service at 34th because of the switching done there. The object is to do as little switching as possible. By running it over the N, there is no extra move done at 36th St and 4th Av(from the B line), and while they might bring the D train into Dekalb instead of using the bypass,it is now on it's origional route with no more added switches.
I can understand doing less switches, it was just that the CROWDS were going to the F line for the D. The B82's were packed with people going 12 blocks to the F.
I know we are also only talking an hour here, but if it had been a fatality, the police would have tied up the line longer. There should have been additonal Service on the F IMHO.
If the only way is to move trains through the yard, maybe some of the Q trains that were sent to the yard when Brighton Beach layups were filled, could have come out on the F tracks at Stillwell. The Q could switch at 47/50st like they sometimes do when F trains are late and they send one through local from West 4th.
Personaly, I would have wanted the D to run Express over the B line, less stops then the N!!
Why weren't there any announcements being made during this. I waited about a half hour - 45 minutes at Newkirk and never heard a single voice. Total silence.
This is frequently the case during delays in service. WHY? There isn't any useful information, just "safety announcements." WHY?
Even when the trains started running, you only knew because the train arrived. Not a word over the PA. WHY???????
Today's Smoke Condition, we were arriving at Prospect Park (after being held a Parkside) and the PA annoucment was still saying all all service was halted.
Since I spent some time at Stillwell Ave waiting for my D train to be rerouted I saw the this Yellow and Black sign and the North(?) end (end facing the Yards) at the N/B tracks.
"Sensitive Rolling Test is Required upon leaving this location"
What does that mean?
I'd guess it has something to do with testing of the brakes???
If you ever notice a train (before leaving a Terminal)does not pull out right away, but the train operator move the train a few feet and see's if the train rolls freely with out a pull back. If the Train Operator has a pull back he may have a brake on in one of his cars.
This only happens at the first stop. this is called a sensitive rolling test because your checking to see (in a sensitive way)if any brakes are on in the train. You don't want the last car of the train dragging down the road by the other 7 or 9 cars
That explains why those R-7/9s on the Canarsie would lurch momentarily just as the train would pull out of 8th Ave. Funny thing is, I never noticed this on the BMT standards.
The test involves taking one point of power ("switching"), then to coast. This portion should be quite smooth. But then most operators will go right to parallel/multiple, and depending on the slack between cars, can give quite a kick. The best "kick" I think is when the leaves Main Street. Go 'birds!
Of course, the NYC subway has a 3 power positions on the controller. Go to the switching position, wait a second for the train to move, then going to series/multiple will usually prevent lurching. BTW: trick question on a train operators test: If they ask you how many positions on the controller, correct answer is 4. That's right. Don't forget "Coast!".
2 Operating positions also(series and multiple).Coast and switching are not Operating positions.Switching position used for short moves only
The brake controller has 7 positions
1- Handle off
2- Emergency
3- Full Service
4- snow brake
5- running release
6- full release
the seventh position being between full service and running release being your service range which has no particular spot on the brake stand.
I think you mean "brake valve'.
It is 6 position. The service range is just that , a range, not a position. Any school car motor instructor will tell you that.
On the R-46 there are eight (8) positions.
1. Handle Off/Lock
2. Emergemcy
3. Full Service
4. Min. Brake
5. Coast
6. Switching
7. Series
8. Parallel
There is no snow brake position on the R-46 master controller.
But there is a switch on the control panel for it. The R44 is similar.
-Hank
Steve (or others):
What does the snow brake position modification actually do?
Are there new trainlines, or is it just the brake valve
self-lapping a specific low straight air pressure?
The snow brake very slightly puts the brake shoe against the wheel. Again, not to cause things like a drag, hot wheels, flat wheels, track fires and the like. The theory is the wheel will scrape the snow off the brake shoe to help the train respond to the motormans call for a brake.
I always understood the theory to be that it would heat the wheels slightly, causeing the ice under them to melt and therefore increase adhesion. Easy to tell when it's on, just sniff for a burning clutch.
-Hank
I actually perfer the Snow brake on the R-46 for operational purposes. On the R-46 there is a switch on the console. When it is in the 'on' position, it energizes a magnet valve which causes a 3-5 Lb. brake to be applied to the wheels. Unlike the usual 2-handle control arrangement, the snow brake on the R-46 is independent of the brake handle setting.
Ok, that's the R46. But on the original ME42B and ME43
equipment, there was no "snow brake" position. It was a
recent mod, which came complete with advisory stickers to
place on the brake stand. So, what I was asking is what
was the mod? Is it simply a detent to put the self-lapping
portion at a certain minimum pressure position?
As I recall, the lurch or jerk wasn't all that great on those R-7/9s when leaving 8th Ave. You'd feel the familiar jerk as power was applied, then the train would just start to move, then another similar jerk. I did notice that almost every Saturday, the same motorman and conductor would be on our train.
The sensitive rolling test is the second of three tests he/she is required to do when boarding a train or anytime the train goes into emergency.
1-The first is the B-2 test to see that you have a good trainline brake. When the train has fully charged, you make three graduated decreases in straight air with your brake valve.
2- Then the sensitive rolling test to see that there is no pullback on the train, that there are no stuck brakes.
3-This last test is done, as you're leaving the station you accelerate your train to 15mph and then take a brake. All you want to do is see that there is a retard in the train, that you have a dynamic brake (which only works above 15 mph).
The dynamic brake is actually the trains motors acting as generators which is a hard thing for it to do, this slows the train down to 15 mph where it fades and then the friction brake (a brake shoe against the wheel) brings the train to a complete stop.
I assume that the 15mph test is done only where the speed limit allows it?
So WHY the signs at Stillwell Ave??
(Thanks for the expert reply)
the Rolling brake test can be done on any stretch of track hence the name "Rolling brake test". This brake test always done in passenger service or the yard where in some places the max speed is 5 mph. Doing the brake test is standard operating procedure and minimally time consuming. Any time a trains brakes are applied in emergency the the rolling brake test is to assure that all brakes have released trainline. Most motormen do the standing, rolling and running brakes tests to make sure no brakes including handbrakes are applied, the deadman operates and that dynamic braking is operational and to make sure air compressors are good unless you want a totally messed up train to make your trip a living hell.
Probably no real reason at that location. It is generally a reminder to take a sensitive rolling test anywhere when you first move a train/cars.
OKAY, SO IT WAS MADE OFFICIAL THAT THERE WOULD BE NO SERVICER OVER THE WILLAMSBURG BRIDGE UNTIL MID OCTOBER, SO OBVIOUSLY THIS WILL DISRUPT SERVICE. WHAT I AM WONDERING IS WILL THERE BE ANY NEED FOR SKIP STOP SERVICE AT THIS TIME (INSTEAD, USE ALL Z TRAINS A ADDITONAL SERVICE TO HELP OUT) WILL THE JAND Z GO AS FAR AS BROADWAY JUNCTION OR MARCY,OR, WILL IT BE A LITTLE BIT OF BOTH? ALSO I AM REALLY WONDERING ABOUT THE M line now my question would be would THE TA ALLOW IT TO GO AS FAR AS MARCY OR WILL IT GO SHUTTLE TO MYRTLE AVE. WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER HALF OF THE M SERVICE WHICH RUNS BETWEEN BAY PARWAY AND ESSEX ST. WILL THERE BE M TRAINS RUNNING OUT OF CONEY ISLAND TO PROVIDE THIS SERVICE AS WELL AS A BACKUP FOR THE B LINE AS WELL? PLEASE LET ME KNOW, THANKS.
This has already been discussed. And please turn off your caps lock.
Well is this more better for you? As for it being discussed I was not aware it was since I am in my classes most of the time and I happen to work. I was just asking since I probably missed it. So please give me a break
http://www.nycsubway.org/commuter/lirr/9159.jpg
This picture's caption reads: M-1 9159 leading a train at Bayside(9/96). That does not look like Bayside Station to me.
With all the confusion this morning, I ended up on an R68 with black flooring with white specks. That's the first time I ever saw anything like it on the subway. I thought it looked good, but then again it appeared to be new. What is the thinking behind the new color scheme? Is this a sign of things to come?
I had seen the same flooring on a R62A on the #1 line. Thought it looked pretty good and should not look as bad as it gets dirty.
R68A's have the black floors, as far as I know no R68 has any black floor.
The black flooring has been around for a while. I get it every so often on the B train. It must be some kind of a test -- I never noted the car numbers, but I'm guessing there's only one train of black-floored R68's.
I've never seen the one on the IRT mentioned by Sid.
I saw one R68 car like this last year, but again I did not get the car #, but I do remember that it was only one car of the train with this scheme,so I'll have to agree and say there is only one black-floored car. I haven't seen a scheme like this on the IRT either.-Nick
There are at least two R68A carsets with black floors:
#5058-5057-5059-5060 - and -
#5122-5121-5123-5124.
Both carsets have black floors.
There are photos of #5057 and #5059 in the R68 section of the Illustrated Subway Car Roster, clearly showing the black floors.
When I find a black-floor car, I make sure I annotate it in my Numbers Book and in the appropriate 1-2-3 workbook.
As for R62s with black floors: at least one exists, I believe: that is #1391, which was damaged by a firebomb.
Wayne
During the time the R-68As were still under warranty, numerous flooring problems developed. The flooring problems were catagorized into 3 classes and Kawasaki methodically repaired the floors. The simplest repairs were around the doorways of most R-68As. The second class of repairs involved the replacement of some sub-floorig panels. There were, 16 cars that required entire floor replacement. The 16 cars are randomly spread around many 4-car units. There are no 4-car units with all new floors. To the best of my knowledge, there are no R-68s or R-62s with this floor which is the same as on some of the R-110B.
I'm not sure what car types/numbers run on the Q line, but I have been on trains fairly frequently (once a week) that have the black floors. This is at around 5pm going south from 47-50th street. I'm not sure, but it looks like the whole train is made up of such cars. They do stand out and seem to hide the crud much better than light colored floors. Also have noted these cars in AM, tho' less often.
Well, as far as I know, the Q is made up almost entirely of Slant R40s, with occasional R68s and even an R32 or two, although I believe the 32s have been transferred to the N. I've never seen a black-floored Slant - they are all beige. I don't doubt your sightings - I will be in town Monday and I'll keep an eye out for unit numbers, and R68s, if any, on the Q.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
I ride the Q just about every weekday, and I haven't seen an R-68 in over a year -- not that I want to :-)
David
Yes, it has been at least that long since I have seen either an R68, an R68A or an R32 on the Q line. It is the home of the Slant R40. Seen car #4310 ("The Cowboy Way") or #4208 ("Ghost") lately?
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
I have some photos I took while looking through the storm door window of a Manhattan-bound Q of R-32s in October of 1997. The Q is sort of a homecoming for the R-32s; they made their debut on that line in 1964.
Last fall, I saw nothing except slant R-40s on the Q.
IIRC, all of the R-32's that ran on the Q line shortly after they made the car switch with the B in 10/97 are now being used on the 63rd St. Shuttle.
Car 1696 on the Pelham line has that kind of flooring. Also another car on that Pelham line has the same flooring. I haven't seen anything on the No.1 as of yet.
That indicates that #1696 is back in service. I had this unit listed as "revenue inactive", and it is one of only 17 R62A that I have never seen and spotted. (I have been spotting trains and recording car numbers since 1969) Would you know if it is bundled with its mates 1697-8-9-1700? I saw that bunch with #1743 at its head back on January 28. Perhaps something happened to #1696, hence the black floor.
Anyway, I will keep my eyes out for it next time I am near the #6 line. I'm also looking for #1800 as well from the #6.
Wayne
Hold on That was in July when I spoted 1696. I have no Idea if it is in service or not?
Where is he(#1696) hiding? Pelham Yard, maybe? All I have to do is physically see it to include it, even from a distance.
Wayne
This car is in service on the #6 line. I physically saw it in Westchester Yard.
On the R68's it was the replacement of bad flooring (which was actually still under warranty). Why the black scheme was used is a mystery to me.
Black floors hide the dirt.
The black floors, especially in the R68As are visually appealing; they contrast well with the bright-colored seats and with the silver interior walls. IMHO they should have made them all that color.
The eight R68As damaged in the 125th Street flood back in the early 90s - (#5111 was one of these; don't remember the other numbers) - they were repaired and returned to service. I wonder if these cars also got black floors. They were trapped in water up to the bottom of their windows and needed extensive work to their electrical and motor systems. If I remember correctly, they were out of service for a couple of years before finally returning.
Wayne
This morning I took the # 4 to Fordham Road. I got on #1391 on 5 cars and i look down saw the black floor. So the floor look good but i don't know #1395-4-3-2 have black floor.
Remember 1391 and Dec 22, 1993. Firebomb @ Fulton St. 1391 was the car involved in that horrible accident.
Perhaps when the R-62's (and R-68's) go for their GOH, they will all receive the black floors.
What other changes are likely for these cars?
[Perhaps when the R-62's (and R-68's) go for their GOH, they will all receive the black floors.
What other changes are likely for these cars?]
NYC subway cars don't undergo GOH (General OverHaul) anymore. That program was developed to restore subway cars that had been run into the ground (no pun intended) without a great deal of maintenance. Instead, they go through a program called SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System). Under SMS, components are replaced based on their planned lives.
According to the NYCT 1999 Operating Budget Proposal, 260 R-62A and 425 R-68 cars are scheduled to undergo 12-year SMS this year (perhaps Steve can tell us what this means). In addition, 100 cars from the R-32, R-38, R-42, R-62, and R-68 classes are supposed to receive new floors in the first step of a 1,926-car program. Also, car propulsion systems are to be upgraded on 425 of 1,450 R-62A, R-68, and R-68A cars this year (the upgrade consists of replacing the original Westinghouse controller -- under the car, not in the cab -- with Adtranz E-Cam [electronically-actuated cam control] -- Adtranz bought out Westinghouse a few years ago).
What about some electronic signage?
I dont have a car number but at least one car on the R62 on the 4 has bench seats rather than bucket seats. (they were the three shades of orange used in the bucket seats. One section of seats was in one color but all 3 were used. Such as Dark orange on Cab side, light orange opposite, medium orange on the short seats across from the cabs.)
1586-1591 have the flat bench seats. They were built that way as a test after people started complaining about the narrow bucket seats on the R-62s.
David
[I dont have a car number but at least one car on the R62 on the 4 has bench seats rather than bucket seats. (they were the three shades of orange used in the bucket seats. One section of seats was in one color but all 3 were used. Such as Dark orange on Cab side, light orange opposite, medium orange on the short seats across from the cabs.)]
That wasn't an accident, it was a terrorist attack by an individual trying to blackmail the city.
-Hank
That is true but it was an accident because it was not supposed to go off in the Fulton St station. Under the East River, remember? I am not trying to be funny here!!!!
Simon Billis has asked me to post the following response from London Transport, regarding the use of the 4th rail for current return:
To wit:
"The four rail system was adopted because problems were experienced using three rail.
"In the three rail system the return current is carried by the running rails. The problem was that the running rails are hard to electrically isolate from the iron tube tunnel lining; consequently the return current was carried not just by the running rails, but by the tunnel lining as well. In fact experiments showed that there could be quite large electrical currents in the surrounding subsoil too, which played havoc with telegraph equipment and caused electrolytic corrosion in iron gas pipes, water mains etc.
"In the four rail system both the supply and return current is carried in electrically insulated conductor rails; end of problem. One side effect of this, however, is that the return 'floats' electrically, and is not at earth potential. Depending on what the trains are actually up to this means that the return rail is potentially quite as dangerous as the supply side - and can be at several hundred Volts with respect to earth.
"This is of course true on both sides of the Atlantic; one reason that it was adopted by the Underground is that Board of Trade stipulated that the maximum voltage drop on an earthed return should not exceed 7V. This is a very stringent requirement and could only be met on the
Underground by using an insulated return.
"Well, the sequence of events leading up to electrification is complex, not least because of the close relationship between the Metropolitan and the District Railways, and the intervention of the American financier Charles Tyson Yerkes. On a close(ish) reading of Barker & Robbins I think I can say that the District was first off with experiments in 1898, closely followed by the Metropolitan. Both experiments used four-rail, although the Met.'s setup had both conductor rails outside the running rails. However, the Met was the first with a full-scale public service, which commenced in January 1905, using four-rail as we see it today. The District followed about 6 months later."
Wayne Whitehorne
Simon Billis
So, the reason is clay after all...
Most London soil north of the river is clay -- very easy to bore through, but then it needs something to hold it up, cast iron was the obvious choice.
Today, there are several lines in bored cast iron tunnels with only three rails, such as the Northern City Line into Moorgate, plus the Waterloo and City Line has had three rails at certain points in its career. Were the regulations changed, or is there another solution to their problem?
Max, I have no idea. Perhaps there has been a change. Again I shall try and find out.
What oes anyone think about this idea? Instead of building a new 2 tube tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge, would it be cheaper to add one tube to Montague?
It would be to the North (east) of the Manhattan bound tube, and at the same level. The Manh. bound connection to Nassau would be cut off by the new tube, which would get that connection instead. So now, you could maintain the current throughput with two 30tph capacity tracks in the peak direction.
The N, Q, & R would have the middle track to themselves, peak direction, and the outer tracks would be for Nassau St service, with replacements for the B & D added to M service. (The old loop connection could then be connected to Grand with a new flying junction north of Chambers, to through-route the B & D)
This would allow the current 6 lines to operate and without the Nassau trains delaying the others at the turnout. The issue would be between the tunnel and Atlantic Pacific, but I imagine the 3rd tracking could somehow be extended to that point.
So how is this idea?
One question -- how do the trains get back to southern Brooklyn for their 2nd rush hour run? You have 60 going in, but just 30 going out. Perhaps the G could be hooked up, and 30 trains could return via the crosstown and F express?
Also, trains through the Montigue take forever to get to Midtown. The advantage of the bridge/tunnel setup is you can go to Downtown Brooklyn (120,000 jobs) and Downtown Manhattan (400,000 jobs), or bypass them and go direct to Midtown South, Soho, and Midtown (1,400,000 jobs).
Perhaps the part I like best is adding tracks from Atlantic/Pacific to the tunnel. It takes forever to get from Atlantic/Pacific to the tunnel. If there was a bypass option, merging in after Boro Hall, and new signals, perhaps the Motingue could take a lot more trains, some bypassing, some stopping. The switch before any stations on the Manhattan end already avoids dwell time.
I did have this thought on the subject. If the A/B tracks were hooked up to the Rutgers tunnel (as proposed in the East River Crossing Study) and a link was made from the Nassau loop to Grand Street (as proposed in the Metrolink proposal), then OFF PEAK all trains could run through the tunnels, with all stations served. Trains would run over the bridge just 20 hours per week, and perhaps just one service on each side. The number of trains going over the bridge per week would fall by 75-80 percent. Perhaps the reduction in wear and tear would allow the bridge to continue to be used for the subway, for at least a few decades.
Is there a web site or other realm where I could look over the East River Crossing Study?
The study went deep six, since it recommended spending money (albeit not much) on the less-than-humans of Brooklyn. I only saw a summary compiled by our transportation division.
You can read about the Lower Manhattan Access study on the MTA website, however. It proposes a "high amenity subway" just for suburbanites, so they can get Downtown.
Thanks for the info, much appreciated.
>One question -- how do the trains get back to southern Brooklyn for their 2nd rush hour run? You have 60 going in, but just 30 going out.
>Perhaps the G could be hooked up, and 30 trains could return via the crosstown and F express?
Well, I guess it wouldn't be perfect, but it would be better than nothing, or even the Rutgers connection. Remember in that idea, only one service, the Q uses it because it merges with the F (and forget about any increase service for exp. to Church then), And the West End is still left as a shuttle. (No B or M--only four services going through Dekalb) Under my idea, you still have all 6, though I guess you would only have limited return service. I guess you would have to use those and thin later service out, or id 6th Av is connected to Nassau, send B & D back over the Culver.
The B, D & R are pretty long. How many of them return in time for a 2nd rush hour trip, anyway?
(How many of them return for a separate trip anyway?) My experience is the first half of the rush hour is trains that run from the yards in Coney Island, while the second half of the rush hour consists of trains which arrive from Queens, turn around, and head back to Queens. (I suspect this because if you try to ride the F in the 2nd half from Brooklyn, you're hit with more delays, because your trains are affected by problems on the Queens Blvd line).
Without all the trains getting through to Brooklyn from Queens 6:30 to 8:00, there won't be enough trains in Coney to carry Brooklyn passengers from 8:00 to 9:30.
It would probably be a similar cost. A new tunnel would likely be a wide tube, rather than a single-track tube. As long as you've got the hole dug....
-Hank
Various news services (Reuters) reported that there was a meeting today of business leaders and the MTA to discuss $30 Billion of new plans including the westbound extension of the Flusing line to Giuliani Sports complex, the Second Avenue Subway, and lines to the airports. Is there anything new in it?
Details about that meeting can be found here
Can anyone say what either Giuliani or Pataki has to gain "politically" from pushing/supporting this when they both are about to seek higher office ?
If they had just been re-elected I would think they'ld have more to gain from adding this to their list of accomplishments.
Mr t__:^)
I would like to know on when F express service in Brooklyn will be restored, in addition,I would like to know why was the F express proposal considered twice but was never implementated & since there is surplus money like $379 million dollars, why can't NYCT use this money to restore F express service.
Sincerely,
Michael
the reason is that because the TA refuses to rennovate the lower level of bergen St. which would allow passengers from Bergen St. Carroll St., and smith-9th st. to transfer to an express manhattan Bound F-train. NYC transit tore apart the lower level station walls and lighting, thus leaving a darkened platform with no passenger ammenities.
Because of this, the people who live at these stops would lose direct service to manhattan, therefore they bitterly opposed the plans to restore express service. If NYC transit was serious about restoring express service, all they would have to do is rennovate the lower level at Bergen St.
This of course is not the reason. Firstly, aside from the unusual conditions today (3/12 fire), we would never operate *all* F trains express. I dont know what the designers of the IND were thinking, but perhaps the fact that they didnt even try to run that service until the early 1970's, and then it only lasted a few months, should indicate that this never was feasible. Bergen St was (and is) a rather stupid design. When alternate F's ran express in the mid 70's (after the failure of the all express service), Bergen St riders, who gained nothing from an express, all stood in the stairways to see which level got a train first. Finally, most of the opposition to F express service has come from people around the Carroll St station, not Bergen. In any case, the 1995 plan was to increase dramatically the total number of F's, divide the increased number in two, with 1/2 express and 1/2 local from Church (where they would originate). That plan was nixed by the budget, and the cars that would have run it have gone to other places.
Well, Michael, I have some good news and some bad news
The good news is that it was restored today due to the Bergen St fire. The bad news is that now that reasonable capacity has been restored to the local tracks, the F will return to the local by Saturday and the express tracks will probably be out of service for years until the interlocking is completely rebuilt.
Not that there was an near term chance of this happening--there arent the cars available to support the service that was proposed earlier this decade.
(F express will probably be out of service for years until the interlocking is rebuilt). What, exactly, burned? I only saw problems in the signal room. Were the signals destroyed? The wiring? The tracks? Somehow the news media doesn' think this is important enough to report these sort of details. Its being reported as the equivalent of a fender bender that ties up traffic on the FDR.
I suggest that the TA had better get the F express available before the schedule shut down of both sides of the Manhattan Bridge in 2001, or whenever it is. Otherwise, really awful service will be horribly awful, during a Mayoral election year.
You did write about that in your report, but the schedule we get from NYCDOT is only that there will be off-peak closures of both sides (similar to 1995). Anyway, the future is very fuzzy--everyone is just working like crazy to get things back to normal ASAP for the switches and signals in use right now. I think (tho I dont know) that it was the guts of the machine that burned--not that big a fire physically, but since its 1930's technology, its not like we can just find some spare parts.
So the bridge is not going to switch sides now in 2001? (6th Av close full time, and Bway reopen full time). This is news.
But the next phase of Manhattan Bridge work should provide the means to have F express.
Whether the bridge switches sides, or is fully open or closed part or full time, in all of those cases, the Q can go back to Broadway and be replaced by the V, (and the 63rd St connection scheduled to open at this time too, PLUS the new cars for the L which will shift cars over for this service.) The V could simply be extended to Church, instead of 2nd Av. Perhaps they could store trains in Propspect Park Yard and have one way rush hour service ifthis is stiill stretching it with the cars.
It's a pity they scrapped all the R10 and R30A - they could have used some of these in a pinch, despite their lack of A/C. Even 100 total units would have been a help. I know, yard capacity, lack of parts, costs of maintenance &c &c &c the list goes on and on. Maybe they can pick up the option part of the R143 contract and maybe even order another 100 or so cars down the road...
Wayne
I hope you don't mean use ALL of it there! Share it with others! But seriously even before this Bergen St. fire, many in this thread have asked about F express service. Express service would help those passengers at express stations & south of Church Ave., and only inconvenience those at the other stations. With express service, the connection between the F and BMT Fourth Ave.line would be severed. I think the best use of the express tracks has been discussed previously: connect them to one service on the Brighton Line, and one service only. Otherwise, too much congestion and to prevent problems at Jay St. if something happens north of Jay St. on one of the lines resulting in reroutes. Frankly, don't forget the original IND ended at Church Ave. From there to Manhattan is a rather short distance. The line was overengineered in the first place. The additional track or tracks should have begun at 7th Ave. where the G ideally should have terminated so it could also have connected with the BMT at Fourth Ave.
Looking back in hindsight, if they hadn't torn down the Culver shuttle, they could have reworked the line to be used as a connection from the current F line over to the West End line and from there to Coney Island. That way, the B and F could have run through the Rutgers tunnel, with one of the lines the F running express from Jay to Church and the B running local in that area, which would have solved the problem of Manhattan access at Bergen, Carroll, Smith-9th and Fourth Ave.
As far as the current West End service, the M could be run regular hours over the current route in Brooklyn to Kings Highway, instead of just rush hours.
Too bad this problem didn't come up 30 years ago, when the Culver shuttle was still around.
They would have had to build a mighty flyover for the n/b service at Ditmas Avenue, or face using a complex at-grade crossing, similar to that found at Myrtle Avenue and Broadway in Brooklyn. Grade crossings, while they have their detractors, can be functional if all the signals, switches and whatnot are in order. I don't remember any accidents at either of the two road grade crossings in the NYCT system. However, for purely safety reasons, flyovers, flyunders or the equivalent are always preferable.
Wayne
I was thinking of a flyover from the express track before Ditmas to connect with the Manhattan-bound track, and just a smiple split off from the F local track before Ditmas to the Culver. at the other end, they might have been able to do a fly-under to connect the westbound Culver track to the Coney Island-bound West End track.
But like I said, this thread would have worked better if it had been posted on the Internet back in 1969, when Al Gore invented it.
For lots of grade junctions, and even diamonds, go to Chicago. I cannot think of any flyovers there! They move a lot of trains through those junctions, but they are not moving very fast through them.
Yes, I've seen the crossover at the northwest corner of the Loop - that's quite a sight, watching them maneuver in and out of there at grade. We just have the two: at Broadway/Myrtle on the "J" and "M"
lines, and another north of 135th Street on the "2" and "3" lines. I can not think of any others, if there are, please remind me.
Wayne
One of these days I will post some info on a report I read about and have about subway planning for the city with many provisions for the abandonment and replacement of elevated (due to the theory of decreasing property values with els).
The idea was to run from the Church Av station somehow over to the Sea Beach doing away with the Culver elevated structure.
I've got to dig that report out.
(Connect F from Church to Sea Beach). I hand the same idea! You'd just run a two track line down McDonald, and over on Bay Parkway. the bottom of the Sea Beach is right next to the bottom of the Culver. Making the connection would mean more trains on the line, and F express service. And the money saved by having fewer stations and less track to maintain would (in a world with sensible construction costs) pay for the line.
Ah, dreams.
Believe me Larry, it's not so bad an idea, but someone is always going to lose with a line abandonment.
Like I said, one of these days i'll post up some of these subway long term plans. I just don't seem to have the time right now.
(Someone always loses with an abandonment). The lines are right near each other. Walk a little farther, ride a lot faster. For those who don't want to walk 10 minutes, there is the bus.
Yes, but nobody looks at the big picture. Also, no one really wants to take a bus to the train. (my opinion) I would think riders would want a one seat ride(not including subway to subway transfers).
The easiest plan I see is to just create a new line that runs from Church Ave. up the Culver local, via the 6th Ave. local and through the 63rd st. tunnel to Continental Ave. from ^ AM to 9 PM after the Manhattan Bridge is available for 4 track use. Run the F express from Jay to Church during the hours. Extension of the G to Church will also add extra trains along the local track. Make Bergan St. a local stop, as it's really redundant to have both levels open.
The one and only time I ever took an F train express from Church to Jay St. it shaved off 7 minutes from my ride. Reason enough to do it.
(Just add an extra service on the F)
The same logic could be used to add an extra service on the B, on the N, on the Broadway (which has a 3rd track), on the #4 Jerome Ave, etc. You still end up with the same choice -- more trains and staff to run them, or taking the same number of trains and dividing them between a local and express -- with longer waits. To be fair, before the fire the F was not that crowded in Brooklyn, so extra trains were not really justified. The Brighton is crowded, but you can't really add trains on the BMT, because of the Manhattan Bridge.
So there we are. But if you combine lines, they you could have a local and express with the same number of trains and the same wait. This is theoretically possible in southern Brooklyn, where the lines were built as competitors and duplicate each other, but because of the way they were space, you'd have to build to keep everyone within a reasonable walk.
No, I was saying an entirely new line should be created and run along with the F to Church Ave. in Brooklyn. The Rutger St. tunnel can handle a lot more capacity than it does right now. (well, before the fire)
I read your submessege on Peter Cafiero, are there plans to restore 6th Av/Broadway-Brooklyn service & on the bottom of the letter, it said something about Mr. Wilsn & Mr. Gawkowski.
I would like to know if you can post there messegers on subtalk to see what they had to say & if you happen to have both there e-mail address, please post that on subtalk.
Thanks,
John
It was the standard form letter they usually send when you make suggestions:
"This is in response...; we appreciate our customers concerns; your letter has been forwarded...for review and consideration; Thank you", etc. There have been times they've said more, but I guess there was nothing else they could say to this. Ever since they tried it from '68-76, they felt it wasn't worth it. I was just saying that I hope they really would consider it, because things are a little different than in the 70's.
There were no e-mail adresses in the letter, just the regular mail address and Customer Service phone #.
There is a neighborhood map in the fare control area of Metropolitan Ave. (M line). On it they have a notation to the effect: "Certain services will be modified Dec. ??, 1988." Yes 1988!!!!!!!! I have a son in fifth grade who was born that year!!!!!!! Slightly outdated????????
I was just wondering, what's the legal implications of scanning in an old NYCT map, and posting it on the site?
I would think that it WOULDN'T be a copyright infringement, because they are public documents, and there is no charge to veiw them. Additionally, they are about 15-20 years old, and may be otherwise unavailable.
-Hank
One year later and the Adler Map (found on this site) still has the "G" running to 179th Street in the evenings. The map is terrific but inaccurate. It should be updated or removed.
We don't profess to have the official info. This site is run by volunteers and we don't necessarily have time to update things on a timely manner. Perhaps rather than complaining you could volunteer some of your time.
If I deleted everything on the site that might have a slight error, SubTalk would be gone in an instant....
-Dave
Hello Dave -
Well, it is "subnite.gif" which is in error. I have fixed most of it, will get back to it shortly. Shall I send the corrected version back to you? You're right - there's quite a lot of information to manage out here!
Wayne
Mike Adler sent me corrected versions of all the "By Time" maps which I have put up this afternoon.
-Dave
Those files have an amazing amount of detail in them - Mike did a superb job with all of them (as usual). No harm in keeping my copy as a wallpaper, however :o)
Just thought I'd volunteer, as usual...
Wayne
A route map that was outdated as soon as it was installed is the one recently placed at the bottom of the escalators at the Exchange Place PATH station. It shows the JFK Express still in operation and going to 21st St-Queensbridge.
Hm. I've never seen a subway route map on PATH property. PATH still has signs up at some stations that show connections to Erie-Lackawanna, Conrail, Jersey Central trains...
Yesterday I noticed that there's one of those old 1976 subway maps posted in the 57th/6th station mezzanine. Any reason it's still there? It made my trip more interesting, but it also confused the heck out of some tourists using it to plan a trip downtown. (There's a recent version of The Map on the other side of the same display case, but you wouldn't know that if you approached from the 1976 side.)
If it's a wall map, there may have been a current map pasted over it which didn't last. I've seen outdated maps at mezzanines myself, but nothing that old.
One of my fustrations, well actually two, is that as soon as I find a mag on trolleys & traction it goes under. The second fustration is that everyone that i've seen, since the 60s, seems to deal with events from 1910 thru 1935 ... I wasn't even a gleam in my fathers eye then.
Anyhow I found another one & a old friend:
- Scale Model Traction & Trolleys Quarterly. They're up to issue #51 so I guess they've been around a while. Only problem is that it comes out of Milwaukee & think there's such a thing as "New York City Trolleys". I bought the two back issues on this, so it will be interesting to see what it covers. Sample issue $4.85
- Old friend ... Trolley Talk is back or still in business, bi-monthly. In case you don't know, they're out of Louisville. Sample issue $2.65
Anyone who wants to know more, just send e-mail to me off-line.
Mr t__:^)
Magazines are obsolete for narrow interests. The cost of printing and mailing, and the risk of not being able to cover fixed costs, is just too great unless you have mass circulation. The Web really is amazing for things like this.
Kind of makes me glad all the book and magazine printing has moved out of the city, but all the writers, graphic artists and advertizing people are still here. Having an activity move out of NYC is a leading indicator of it disappering altoghter.
The East Penn Traction Club 1999 Trolley Meet is coming up at the end of April, and is being held in Southern, NJ. There I am sure you will find lots of magazines and the scoop on which ones are still active, as well as meet other modellers, not all of which are modelling 1910 - 1935. You should check it out.
--Mark
Mark,
Two things interest me about this:
1. "spouse free " with paid admittance OR
2. It's close enough to Atl City (East of Philly) I could drop her off on my way to event.
P.S. Includes a Trolley (PCC) Fan Trip Sunday :-)
Thanks for the post !
Mr t__:^)
Received my sample issue of Trolley Talk last night :-)
- In it is an adv for yet another mag ... "Traction Prototypes & Models" out of Canton, Ohio, not to be confused with Traction & Models out of Indanopolis, that went under.
- The cover has a Shrink-Wrap trolley, actually the whole car is painted in an advertisment for War Bonds.
- Two articles inside I liked a lot:
1. Constr. & 1998 opening of Portland's MAX "Westside" 33 mile LRV line using Bombardier & Siemens 92' Artriculated cars.
2. Before & after paint job on SEPTA's Red Arrow 1982 Kawasaki trolleys, i.e. they moved the strip to the top of the car. Also they talk about these cars being displaced by new equip, AND that they may end up on the Route 15 that was "bus-substituted" in 1992.
Now this in MY kind of trolley magazine ... I think I'll subscribe !
Mr t__:^)
Hello Thurston -
As I see that you're reminiscing, I guess you remember Electiclines, which was on the scene around the late 1980’s and early 1990’s. I thought that it was a quality magazine that provided interesting current and historical topics for the electric railfan.
Secondly, may I recommend to anyone who is interested in electric traction, both past and present, in the Midwest may want to look into a receiving a copy of "First & Fastest", sponsored by the Shore Line Interurban Historical Society. The address for the magazine is:
PO Box 368, River Grove, IL 60171-0368
"First & Fastest" is published four (4) times a year (March 15, June 15, September 15 & December 15). A yearly membership fee of $20 includes the four issues. The publication is always at least 32 and usually 40 pages packed with history on the three Chicago interurban companies, present CTA, South Shore and Metra Electric, along with operating museums in the Midwest.
Windy City Jim K, thanks for the input !
Question, why do so many of the trolly/trackion groups seem to have "Shore" in their name, e.g. Seashore, Shoreline, Shore Line ????
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone know if/when Trolley Lines ran in communities on Long Island. I would suspect that they were few and far between. However, I have an inkling that some of the more ocean beach-related (Southshore)areas may have had trolley lines (ie, Long Beach, Seaford or Hewlett).
Anyone with info on this subject, feel free to post.
Doug aka BMTman
Does anyone have details on the fire from last night (3/11/1999). As of 8:"30 this am F still express from Jay to Church and G Local to Church (and to 71)skipping Bergen. From what I heard, it started in the relay room in the tower and the lower level really got cooked.
I worked WTC on the A and even A was held for a while!
Well all those screaming for express service to return to the Culiver Line now has it. As of this AM Rush, F Service is express Jay to Church in both direction.
PA Announcements are stating UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE!!
Might try the F on the way home today... Got to go to Blockbuster anyway...
I too will try the F on the way home. I'll let you know.
Took the R this morning.
When I got on this morning, the G and the F were running on the local track TO Manhattan, but the F was running express FROM Manhattan. I walked to 7th Avenue expecting an express ride, but was disappointed.
Also, the trains were packed. I didn't expect crowding -- same number of people, same number of trains, right? But I got it. Ended up waiting for the G. Steve, did the TA cut the number of Fs to come up the cars for extended G service? If not, where did they come from?
The cops and TA employees were on the inbound platform. If, as a prior post said, the lower level was cooked, perhaps that's why the F can't run express inbound. The damage might be confined to the Manhattan bound express tracks, and the station concourse. Bergen Street station was closed.
If that pattern lasts for a while -- local inbound, express outbound -- that's a good deal for me. On the way home, I can ride the F to 7th Avenue, take a G if its there, and otherwise walk or look for the B75 bus. Nothing lost, potentially something gained. On the way in, the F express wouldn't help me if I were waiting at Prospect Park, so it doesn't work as well, although I can walk to 7th Avenue rather than wait for the G (thus losing the transfer option if its convenient). It's a bad deal all around for those at at Smith 9th and Carrol, however, let along those at Bergen.
I too was on the F this morning but wass disappointed when the train was making local stops to 4 ave than it went express to Jay St. I did see the Coney Island bound F trains go express and the G making local stops. However as for the lower level of the Bergen Street Station, who can hear the construction workers screaming about directions, the train before heading towards the staion was very slow, I hope they can figure out beeter patterns to solve this crisis. Second I felt sorry for those people waiting for a G train at Smith - 9 Sts. Accoridng to one of the conductor you had to stay on the F and get off at Jay Stthen take the A to get to Hoyt St. But what I heard was the G was stopping at Smith and 9 sts plus there was the option of taken the shuttle bus that made all stops between Smith St - Jay St. I can tell you this much this mornig was very confusing.
The reason for the crowding today was that much of the signal system was knocked out greatly reducing capacity. That was also the reason to operate limited capacity G service on the local and limited F on the express. As of tonite, the F returns to the local both ways and the G is cut back to Hoyt. (shuttle from Hoyt to Bedford). Bergen should reopen by Sunday nite. Normal service on the G will take a number of weeks to restore.
WHAT HAPPENED:
There was a fire in the Bergen St. Station. Due to the fire (electrical), the Bergen Street interlocking plant was severely damaged. Service was restored around 5 AM.
Temporary Service
The repairs to the interlocking will take approximately eight (8) weeks. During this time, switches are 'blocked and clamped' in position. The F train will run normal in both directions froom Stillwell Ave to Church Ave and 179th St. to Jay St. Between Jay St. and Church Ave. the F train will run via the express tracks, bypassing the Bergen Street station. The G train will be extended to Church Ave. It will run via the local tracks, bypassing Bergen Street and continuing via its' normal route. There will be Bus service provided between Carroll St. and Jay Street. During this morning rush hour, headways on the F were increased by about 50%, ditto for the G. I don't know if the increased headway will last for the entire 8 weeks.
Updates as they are available.
When you say headways were increased by 50 percent, do you mean that the number of trains was cut in half? If so, that would explain the crowding. I hope that won't last past the weekend.
Are half the Queens Fs turning and 2nd Avenue then?
If the TA has the buses, it might consider ramping up the B75 to a five minute headway, and having it run down Prospect Avenue to pick up Ft Hamilton Parkway passengers. Too bad the 9th Street bridge is STILL out of action.
Unfortunate for the TA, to be sure, but some folks who have never seen lower Bergen will now have the chance. Somehow I doubt this will give them any incentive to renovate the lower level in anticipation of future improved services, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Damn, I wish those R-46s had railfan windows now :)
--Mark
It depends. If they get the headways on the F back to normal and find out ridership on the Culver line is going up over the next two months, they may put a permanent rush hour F express at least back into consideration.
I was coming back from Flushing yesterday and changed at 74th to the Queens Blvd. The F and station at 945am was SRO and there were platform conductors. I took the G which came first and was very empty. It filled after at Queens Plaza. The sign simply said "CROSSTOWN" until we passed Metropolitan/ Grand at which Conductor announced last stop as Bedford/Nostrand which then appeared on the signs. We arrive at Bedford Nostrand and there are scores of platforms employees. Doors opened on the right side and then left side. The only confusion was PA sdaid shuttle on Smith 9th bound track and it arrived on Queens Bound track-all tramped from the track to the other through the train on the middle. This shuttle ran Express to Hoyt via wrong railing on the Queens Bound track- the following shuttle would run on the Brooklyn track and make local stops. AT Hoyt more platform help plus Stations had help in the mezz. Likewise Jay Street. There were also plenty of signs at all stations mentioned. I stopped at 370 Jay Street to pick up a poster and then went home. I did not get to Bergen so I do not know that side of the story.
We sure could have used a platform conductor or two Monday at 5 Ave-53 Street- maybe the PC could have gotten #3667's doors to close properly , thereby avoiding having to discharge all of us onto an already crowded platform. A rather unsettling situation, with people standing up to 6 deep.
Wayne
I was just checking the latest news on cnn.com. Under the "Nature" category, the lead story is "Iceland's Parliament OKs Commercial Whaling." The third story below it reads "'Free Willy' Star Enjoying the Good Life in Iceland."
I'll bet Willy's tasty ...
I heard in the transit industry of a fire in the tower at Bergen Street on the IND. I WOULD LIKE ANY ALL INFORMATION IN REGARDS TO THIS FIRE.
PLEASE HELP!!!
Newsradio88 is not reporting a seat of the pants MTA estimate that the service diversion could last two months. Among other things, that would mean F service is screwed up at the same time that Willie B is closed.
Now all we need is for them to discover more cracks on the Manhattan Bridge and we'll all be swimming.
Not all of us think the F running express from CHurch Ave to Jay Street and G trains running local to and from Church Ave is a "screw up".
Maybe they'll leave the service like that after many people come to like it, the voices of Bergen St residents notwithstanding?
--Mark
This happend in the summer of 1997, where the F was running express and G is running local. If the lower part of Bergen st was available this would have been one of the best Express services for the F and G.
The reason why is that passengers for 4 Ave can get the G local upstairs (Bergen Street) southbound trains and 7 Av Norhtbound trains.
Also the G during rush hours must have more trains running because it is horrible seeing at least three F's for every one G that passes at 4 Ave, like this morning, it should run for 5 - 8 minutes.
Question: Where does the middle track go (you see it on the Express track after 4 ave station close to the first anchorage of the bridge?
And what was or is its purpose?
The middle track you see at the bridge just north of 4th Avenue is a spur track, usually used for relaying work trains, or stasing work trains. It's a dead end.
Thanks....................
(Maybe they'll leave it like that).
Perhaps if they turn half the F trains at Church as well, so those on the southern part of the line get the 10 minute headway instead of those at Fort Hamilton, Prospect Park, 4th Ave, Smith 9th, Carrol, and Bergen. Otherwise, it's a service cut for us no matter how you slice it, with no offsetting benefit at all.
As was discussed in a prior post, maybe if they added trains and ran 8 local Fs to Church and 8 express Fs to Stillwell, along with 6 G's to Church, people would buy it. But that would take more trains, which the TA doesn't have. It might lure some Brighton Line riders and cut crowding on that line, however.
But a 10 mintue wait for a local to Hoyt (while others get a five minute wait for an express to Jay) won't go down as a fair deal.
(But a 10 mintue wait for a local to Hoyt (while others get a five minute wait for an express to Jay) won't go down as a fair deal.)
If you think so, also think of how a person who depends on one of those crosstown stops must feel-(10 minutes without the option of taking something else!)
It seems things are going to get even worse, if the MTA start to realize that they must have an emergency plan in case of these incedents. For today's incedent they should renovate that station as quickly as possible or find a way to at least make the lower section passenger friendly. This station does not have to be closed if the MTA start to focus on the problem. Bergen Street is a major station for many F and G riders. I think they should supply more service on the G as an alternative plan if the B75 is not going to be used as an alternative. As for the Fort Hamilton Pky problem: The B67, B75, or a shuttle bus is crucial need. If you were riding the D or Q yesterday morning, you would have realize that when service was suspended on the Brighton Line, everyone diverted to the B41 bus creating more delays and overcrowding. This should change, in case of anything the MTA should have emergency plans for passengers to find other routes or diversions to get things steady plus should have a stand - by fleet for buses at least 1/2 hour after the incedent.
[This should change, in case of anything the MTA should have emergency plans for passengers to find other routes or diversions to get things steady plus should have a stand - by fleet for buses at least 1/2 hour after the incedent.]
And, of course, the MTA knows where and when each and every emergency is going to take place, and how long each and every situation will last when it happens.
Some things, you just have to deal with when and as they happen.
David
Right on target.
In the NY Daily News Saturday March 13, page 4, is an article of the Bergen Street Fire.
The station will be closed until further notice. The MTA is providing free around the clock shuttle bus service from Bergen St. to Jay St, where riders can take the A, C and F trains, and to Carroll St, where they can take the F and G trains.
After the good folks of Subtalk read the article your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
General Order 3496-99 governing service changes due to the Bergen St. fire is now in effect until further notice and is in effect all times. G service from Queens will operate to Bedford/Nostrand middle and return to Queens. There will be a special shuttle running 24/7 on track E1 (southbound track facing Hoyt St) between Bedford/Nostrand and Hoyt St. in both directions. In addition, an additional shuttle will be running on track E2 (northbound track FROM Hoyt St.) between Bedford Nostrand and Hoyt St. in both directions from 6 AM to 9 PM seven days a week. Between 9 PM & 6 AM this train will lay up at Bedford/Nostrand. F trains will operate on the local track once more between Bergen St. & Church Ave. An Absolute Block (one train at a time allowed in a specified area) will be in effect in the following specified areas: Coney Island bound from signal B1 782 (leaving Jay St.) to B1 732 (leaving Carroll St). Manhattan bound: from signal B2 739 (leaving Carroll St.) to home signal B2 789 (leaving end of Jay St.) Under this arrangement, fewer F trains can be operated in Brooklyn than normal.
Also in the NY Post Saturday March 13, page 2, is an article about the Bergen Street Fire and also tells everyone which trains to avoid.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park blvd.
This is very bad news for G riders, especially with the Williamsburg Bridge going down. Now they have to change four times to get anywhere.
The loss of train service on the F is also very bad. At least on Friday some sabbath observers, and perhaps some others, left work early. Monday is going to be hell.
Perhaps I should plan on walking to/from the IRT and Grand Army for the forseeable future. I could also walk to the D/Q at Prospect Park or 7th Avenue, but that is already as bad as the F is expected to be.
I guess they figured that running the F express might prompt customer demand for a renewal/continuation of that service and they certainly didn't want to do anything to please the riding public, right? :-)
I was in the city on Sunday so I rode the F (not having seen the above posts) in the hope of going through the lower level of Bergen Street but of course no luck. There was also some kind of additional problem with the A train causing it to run Manhattan-bound on the F line - was this fire-related too or something else?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
More likely, the MTA decided they'd get too many complaints from local passengers at Bergen, Smith 9th and Fourth Ave. if they had only the G to work with, so they decided to pin the switch for the F local and let G riders do a triple switch (F to Jay, A to Hoyt, then shuttle to Bedford-Nostrand to the G) to use their line.
Pretty soon, the MTA is just going to put handcars on the G and let people power themselves along the line. Just don't go past Court Square...
(MTA thought they'd get too many complaints with just the G)
Despite my living on Prospect Park, I think I would have been better off with switch frozen the other way. Rather than just eight F trains per hour, I could have had 6 Gs and 4 Fs which turn around at Church, with 8 Fs going express. More capacity total, less crowding.
But it comes down to the number of cars. Extending the G might have required more trains than today. Cutting the G, and the number of F trains, requires fewer. Besides, local and express might be harder to manage without the signals.
The A line was on the F due to track work and station work at Broadway Nassau. It was all weekend long. (SOURCE:Official bulletin)
Thanks, guess I missed that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's a great idea shouldn't everyone who travels anywhere have some alternate travel plans in the event a emergency occurs?
You heard correctly - see my previous posting
Does anyone know where i can buy some Old Amtrak?metro-north Timetables....ANy info will be appreciated
I do have a couple of Amtrak N.E. Corridor timetables from the mid
1980's (1983+), back when they had a picture of an AEM7 on the front.
As of now, I really don't want to part with them, but if you want, I
could try to make some copies to send you. I used to have a lot of
them at one time, but I may have thrown them out. If I come across
any while I'm doing my spring cleaning, I will be more than happy to
send you one.
-Timothy
I have a collection of Amtrak Northeast corridor and some Metro North timetables. Tell me what you're looking for. If I have it, and you are willing to pay the postage, I can part with some of them.
You can reply to me at: jim_kram@yahoo.com
And of course the IRT, not wanting to be outdone...this morning at approximatly 0415, the interlocking machine for Westchester Yard went very haywire and there were exceptional delays. The first put in which runs lite to 125 to make the 0510 125-Pelham, didn't leave the yard until about an hour later )515. All trains had to be flagged out, signal department had to manually activate switches in the yard, stop arms had to be hooked down....because of these extensive delays leaving the yard, a #2 and a #5 were rerouted to Pelham. In addition, there was no Pelham express sevice because all the work trains were stacked from Westchester Square to Cypress Av.
Not even close to the caliber of the Bergen Street fire but definatly not a good day for Signal Department.
Has anybody notice that the 4,5,6 in the last past two has had problems from switch track to broken track?
Now the F and G are also in the same predictament?
The J M Z trains are going deep water, so has the Broadway connection on the Manhattan Bridge and very soon it will effect the 6 Ave line.\
What's next the Rockaway A will no longer be able to cross over the Bridge because of bad maitence
The 63 St tunnel is still in trouble is that also being used for the LIRR? When the tunnel is completed, you still have to deal with the Queens Blvd link that is hurting the E F R?
Where is that 2 AVE LINE?
Have we ever learned from the 2 & 3 Reconstruction? I guess not?
Where is the MTA
Where is Guliani?
Where is my train?
Somewhere in the original IRT charter it is writen:
"At no time shall any train operating within 500 Miles from the Geographic Center of New York City provide slower, less comfortable or less reliable service than the Lexington Avenue Local"
At the time when the IRT was organized there were a number of Union disputes over which line got to be the Worst.
You talk about less reliable. I can Think of worst Lines. During the Rush Hour you have a 4 min headway. Trains are back to back and crowded. Why do you think the train fills up and stays on the train ahead. Because you people can't keep your hands off the Doors. The more you hold the doors the more the train gets packed then when you move you have a train ahead with a bunch of DISORDLY'S HOLDING DOORS!
51 ST is the worst. But hey if you don't want to move the train can sit there all day and I collect overtime.
I really hate 51 st and Lex Av because too many people. They are bunch of morons don't obey or respect on 51 st.
Other major bottlenecks: Grand Central, 47-50 Street, 59th-Columbus Circle, Fulton Street complex (esp.B'way-Nassau), 34th St-6 Avenue,
that's just a few of them.
We need more trains! Any train that is in reasonably good operating condition should be retained, not scrapped. Yes, buy the R142, R142A,
and the R143. But scrap only the cars in the worst shape (A Div) and don't scrap ANYTHING (B Div). Again, we need more rolling stock.
Wayne
I'll second that notion. I think what Wayne is really trying to say is keep as many Redbirds as possible, except for those suffering from terminal body rot.
And I wouldn't even think about retiring any of the current B division 60-footers.
Chris: Take the conductors test to get your foot in the door. Then take other promotional exams. Work yourself through the ranks. Maybe then you will be less critical.
Many posts re: Bergen fire, but still many questions... Took the R in this morning. Anyone have any suggestions for making it home in one piece? I usually take A/C to Jay; then F to Prospect Park/15th St.
Howdy, neighbor (no both ends). You might try the 2/3 to Grand Army Plaza, and a healthy walk across the Park. I've been doing that a lot for the enjoyment of it anyway. If they are still running half the trains, that's about the best you can do.
If they are running the full number of trains, but with the F express, you can board at Jay St and zip to 7th Avenue, and walk from there. That's the key question. Perhaps someone knows the evening rush plans. I'd bet decisions are being made on the fly.
If you want one fare that also includes transfers Take the B75 at Jay St. I used to do that when I attended at Bishop Ford Hish School
Just take your F train as usual to 7th Avenue-Park Slope, then transfer to the G for one stop. That should do the trick.
Wayne
Would it be a good idea to allow Corportations to "sponsor" stations. If they renovated it and maintained it to MTA specs, they would get full advertising rights for as long as they keep things in good condition. This way maybe a NIKE or a COCA COLA would sponsor a station and compete (though not in the traditional sense) by offering air conditioning, bathrooms, etc. Thoughts, comments, go.
Gregory "N-Train" Vines
(Sponsor a station). That would certainly work in the Manhattan Central Business District. In fact, if they ever build the 2nd Avenue subway, I wouldn't be surprised if corporations wouldn't cover the entire cost of construction, as well as maintenence. The riders are the perfect market. They are, or will soon be, affluent, but they're young and have not yet decided which brand they like. In exchange, you'd have to give them the sole right to advertize on the station billboards.
I'm all for it, and for leasing space for telecom lines.
The only problem would be if a company stopped fulfilling its obligations, but you couldn't remove the ads because 1) the gave money to the Governor or 2) they threaten to move out of the city.
The problem (or at least one I think of) is that the advertisers will want to take over certain busy or "well-placed" stations at the expense of letting the outlying stations fall apart. I don't see Nike sponsoring "Avenue H" on the Brighton Line (although it is scenic out there..) if they could have the Times Square N & R and Wall Street on the 4,5 for instance.
-Dave
How is station advertising space allocated today? Do advertisers pay a flat rate for an ad and the TA decides where to put it, or do they pay a specific price for a specific location, whereby the "traffic count" comes into play in determining the rate? (I would have to assume the latter, but one never knows.)
A related question: how is it allocated and priced in the subway cars? Does an advertiser pay more for a car that is used all day than for one used only in rush hour? And are some advertisers being suckered into paying for ads in the "cannibalized" cars that haven't been declared "revenue inactive"?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(How is it bid). I'm not sure, but I believe TDI (or whoever wins the bid) receives a contract for the entire subway system (and, separately, for the bus shelters).
You know, they privitized the operation of the airport in London, with the idea that the private sector would run it better. It didn't. What it did do was figure out a way to turn the airport into a commercial center. Given the opportunity, I'd be you'd see more and better commerical activity down below under a contract arragement. For example, at "Times Square brought to you by Merril Lynch" there would be a kiosk where you could invest. At Lincoln Center, there would be a record store. Etc.
In exchange for these opportunities, private companies would maintain and upgrade the stations. BIDS could also be involved.
[You know, they privitized the operation of the airport in London, with the idea that the private sector would run it better. It didn't. What it did do was figure out a way to turn the airport into a commercial center. Given the opportunity, I'd be you'd see more and better commerical activity down below under a contract arragement. For example, at "Times Square brought to you by Merril Lynch" there would be a kiosk where you could invest. At Lincoln Center, there would be a
record store. Etc.]
Stores and other businesses in airports can work out well because people tend to spend a reasonably long length of time in airports. People changing planes usually have enough time to look in a few shops if the locations are convenient - rarely do they have to run from one gate to the next without a moment to spare. Subway stations are a different matter. Most riders don't stay any longer in their origin stations than it takes to catch the next train, and they usually leave the destination stations right away. That would seem to make commerce a more dubious matter.
has anyone considered that privitizing would be a for profit company would operate the subway and bus system hence the $1.50 would zoom to possibly 7 maybe 8 dollars for a ride. The IRT and BMT were private companies that couldn't make a PROFIT at the fares which they forced to charge which was a nickel at the time. Does anyone think that $1.50 is generating any profit? i think not...
This is a question that needs serious study. The IRT couldn't make a profit with a 5 cent fare, no. The BMT made a very minimal profit. But if they had been allowed to raise the fares to 10 cents, they would have been made profits easily.
Has the general rate of inflation decreased the value of money more than fifteen-fold in the years since unification in 1940? Certainly inflation has been significant, but has it been that large? Is $1.50 today really worth less than a dime in 1940? I doubt it. If not, and if it was possible to run subways profitably for a dime in 1940 (which it was, the companies just never got a chance to do it), then it should be profitable to run them for $1.50 today.
And yet today's $1.50 fare, we are told, pays only for 50% of the costs of subway operation. Operation, the percentage would be less if recovering the costs of (MTA) construction was factored in.
(Is a dime in 1950 $1.50 today?). A dime in 1940 is about $1.10 today.
Its also not that simple. Labor intensive services have inflated in cost a lot more than manufactured goods, because manufacturing is continually getting more efficient through automation, etc. Also, manufacturing is exportable to low wage countries. Inflation of the price of consumer electronics and clothing, as one example, is quite low. On the other hand, some things are inherantly labor intensive. This is why education and health care costs consistently go up faster than inflation.
Operating a transit system is fairly labor intensive. However, unlike education, it is not so inherantly so - automation can reduce the number of people needed. I would imagine there are less trackworkers now because (I hope!) they no longer tamp ballast by hand, for instance. But I don't see station cleaning, for instance, becoming automated any time soon.
(Goods inflation is lower than services). You're right, in general. But service inflation in some categories is caused by their workers getting better off relative ot the rest of us. That's certainly true of medical care and higher education. Moreover, other similar transport and utility businesses have increased productivity, as has the TA (lately).
I don't think anyone in the MTA is talking about "privatizing" the subway system. That would mean a firm would first have to BUY the whole plant ... tracks, building, rolling stock, signal system, etc. Plus the TWU has a clause in their contract that insures that they'll still be operating the equipment.
There have been a few cities that have turned over the "operation" of the system to a private company ... Phoenix comes to mind, as does the new line being built in NJ and of course NYC-DOT does it. The key is how much of the supervision retains with the transit authority. If you're going to save the city money, less is better, i.e. a lot of folks in the TA & DOT still help the the DOT privates. The Phoenix "operator" has very few folks helping them, and from what I've read, that's the goal in NJ.
The other key is whether or not the operatior is doing it for profit. If you're doing it for profit you're motivated to inovate & change things to ensure you make money. That's where the authority & public has to keep a sharp eye peeled to ensure that service and safety (equip maint) isn't effected.
All this said I think privatizing could be a good thing. Particulary if several firms each did a piece of the TA's system, i.e. who can provide the best service from Brooblyn IRT, BMT, IND. When there's a breakdown on the IND the BMT & IRT put on extra service in a way to try & show the IND customers how good their service is.
Mr t__:^)
I don't think anyone's talking about selling the physical plant outright. What is more likely is that the maintenance duties are "sold" in return for some favor, like advertising rights or tax breaks. I don't think we want to be returning to the good/bad old days of competing systems. The same sort of situation exists with the gypsy vans- they only operate on the busy routes. I don't think anyone will be advocating for profit bus operations- half the routes in the city will be curtailed or shut down. Clearly that's not in the best interest of the public. Or is it?
I agree that it's unlikely that the MTA is considering selling the whole ball of wax to anyone.
But what would be so bad about going back to the good/bad old days of competion between the lines ... IF ... the State DOT of some much smaller portion of the MTA madated the level of service (lines/frequency) and let the operator come up with inovative ways of doing it at a profit. Yes I know the first place they'ld go would be after the union staff. But I think the TWU is strong enough to protect it's members ... heck we haven't had a good strike in a while.
And yes I have seen that most of the treads on this line were about adv in the subways, but I don't have anything to contribute about that.
Mr t__:^)
> But I think the TWU is strong enough to protect it's members ...
Well if we're changing the whole operating procedure anyway, why should the Union be protected? Most business/industries do not operate with a union. (Of course, most businesses operate without the extreme antagonism that seems to exist between the union and the supervision). I'd like to see how the system works without it.
And while we're at it, without the civil service hiring practices too. There is no way the Transit "operating company" can expect to get the best people for a job if they make them wait 1-2-3 years between taking the CSE and getting called for an interview. When I heard that was standard, I was amazed. No business in the private sector operates like that. Good candidates don't need to wait for a job. I'm not an economist/sociologist but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that *in general*, CSE positions do not attract the best applicants.
Am I off base on this? I don't mean to insult anyone who has gone the civil service route but it seems to me that the hiring system as it exists is in dire need of overhaul.
I agree and Disagree. I agree that you shouldn't wait 3 Years to get a job in transit but if you eliminate Civil Service that takes away some job security. After a year they just can't fire you they have to Demote you instead. Ofcause I seen fellow workers do stuff that they should be fired for but wheren't.
I wouldn't eliminate the Union. That will cause all kinds of strike and Slowdowns. Also there we need the Union. How else is going to keep an Eye on Management. Ofcause the Union get a free ride of New hired workers on there first year beause I don't think they can really do much for you AND they have nerve to have a 100 Doller fee for new members. But thats on hold. There trying to do a Plublic service campain to show how hard NYCT workers work. Its 60$ out of our checks. We still have to vote on it.
Well I'm sure there are benefits to the union but as an outsider who works in an industry with no unions and no job security (hire at will/fire at will/quit at will) your point about people being demoted instead of being fired is moot-- in the business world, if you should be fired, trust me, you're fired. A privatized transit operation's business model would probably not include much job security.
-Dave
[A privatized transit operation's business model would probably not
include much job security.]
Nor should it. Frankly there are far too many terrible token clerks and conductors. These people make a decent wage for what they do, perhaps if the whole operation were run like a business they would be forced to shape up. McDonalds pays its employees next to nothing but service is generally good. I'd bet that today's transit employees are being paid much more (adjusted) than those of 50 or more years ago. If unions mean safer working conditions and better wages, I'm all for them, if they mean lazy workers stay on the payrolls, common sense demands that they go.
Gregory Vines
[... why should the Union be protected?
Most business/industries do not operate with a union ...
I'd like to see how the system works without it.]
I've been on both sides of the fence & believe that unions are necessary to keep mngt honest, e.g. sweat shops, child hiring, low wages, etc. These abuses are mostly a thing of the past, BUT the captains of industry have found new ways to make ridiculous amounts of money ... but I'm getting off the thread.
- The TWU has language in their contracts that protects them should the "business" get sold. This acts to discourage a possible buyer, but that's what the "owners" agreeded to.
- Most non-union business owners wouldn't be so nice to their employees if there were no unions around. The owners, by & large, don't give a damm for their staff. I've been around long enough to see how quickly they fire long term folks if it suits them ... can you say Grumman ... IBM ... mybell. You have to look over your shoulder a lot more in big companies these days ... I'm digressing again.
- Employment practices ... I agree, its a dumb way to do it. When I worked for Pan Am, they had TWU, you could hire a "qualified" guy/gail right off the street. They paid extra for special skills, so not just seniorty got you the best paying jobs. The TWU created ways for senior folks to get those skills, but you could grab a Avionics guy right out of the Air Force. So, I don't understand why the TA doesn't want to be able to hire an experienced transit guy/gail who has just come in from out of town. At this firm I've seen talented folks cleaning buses on midnights just to get in the door. I've also seen no skills types getting big bucks for jobs they can't do. But I won't lay the blame on the TWU. Mngt looks the other way, so who's fault is it ? Granted years ago unions were too strong, but I don't think that's the case at the TA today. Mngt seems more interested in making rules then turning around or firing the bad employee.
- But then with all this said the trains & buses seem to work reasonabally well, e.g. cleaness, on-time preformance, break downs ?
Could it be better ... sure. Would privatizing it improve it ... sure and would it cost the taxpayers less ...oh yea !
Mr t__:^)
I would imagine that some smaller companies would "adopt-a-station" because if they were allowed to sell their merchandise, they would be profitable. Even in some of the less used stations, there is significant foot traffic at times.
I'm absolutely in favor of private corporate funding of the construction of the second avenue line, in exchange for 50 year exclusive advertising rights or something to that effect. Heck, if McDonalds will keep all the E-trains spotless, they would get my support in installing flat screen tv monitors that only aired their commercials.
Gregory "N-Train" Vines
"A related question: .....And are some advertisers being suckered into paying for ads in the "cannibalized" cars that haven't been declared "revenue inactive"? "
I think your question is a good one but you are making assumptions that may be incorrect.
Assumption #1: The cost of the ads are based on the size of the fleet including the out of service cars. Perhaps the rate is flat or bvased on the average # of cars in service every day. If this were not the case, every time a train went out of service, the advertisers would demand a refund.
Assumption #2 The ads are installed on the trains (and stations) by the advertising company. If ads are placed in 'canabalized' cars, it's at the discretion of the Ad Companies own employees. That's why scrap cars end up with current ads. However,
keep in mind that there are nearly 6,000 revenue cars and less than 1/2 of 1% can be considered canabalized at the present time.
Thanks for the added info. I wasn't making any assumptions, just trying to understand how it all worked. As someone pointed out in another response, there is an advertising company that has a contract for the system - which I wasn't aware of when I asked my original questions.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Only willing to take over the well placed stations). Perhaps if the private sector was maintaining the "well placed" stations, the TA could shift resources to maintaining the "less well placed" stations.
It's already happening here in Boston. "State St." on the Blue Line is now "State/Citizen's Bank."
Eye don't know that I would like to have to get off at the "coke" station :-(
Seriously, Larry makes some good points.
Mr t__:^)
I for one am absolutely sick of everything getting a corporate name. Ads are fine, and I hope the TA is maximizing its ad revenue effectively. Whole stations "wrapped" in an ad like a bus? Great, more revenue for transit. Getting off at Lite Beer station (they would demand that conductors NOT use the geographical name) would make me retch.
I think you are right about an eventual backlash against corporate names, especially when they change every few years. Unfortunately, like the lotto, any revenue source which does not involve taxes is going to be sucked up these days.
Larry From "MTA Gets Your There" House
Just to add to the F/G and #6 Westchester Yard (4 and 5 I guess too). There was a "Smoke Condition" at Grand Street at around 7:45 am. Two D trains were diverted to the Montague tunnel. One I know for a fact discharged at Whitehall on the center track. My D was held for 5 minutes at Parkside.
My D, shut off blowers and went through, there was someone on the tracks (signaling by the T/O) who yelled back "it was by the stairs". Which I assume is one of the emergancy exit stairs.
When we get Broadway/Laff there is an extensive crowd, I mean packed on the platform. No F or any express had been through in awhile.
So today's problems crossed Division lines, fingers crossed for the ride home.
On a very funny episode of "The Simpsons", Homer and the family travel to NYC so Homer can retrieve their lost car.
During the epsiode, Marge and the kids rode the 'A'(I recorded the episode and played the scene in slo-mo).
Though on the outisde it looks like an R-10, the inside has all the features of your standard IRTredbird.
Just pointing it out.
Amtrak has posted its ACELA press release.
According to the Washington Post (www.washingtonpost.com) WMATA is experiencing electronic problems with the automatic train control system. The article also said WMATA expects to operate trains manually for the next month (effective 3/10/99) and to expect delays and more stops between stations. I rode in the last car this morning, but yesterday afternoon my Red line train was not being operated manually. I couple of problems were cited in trains were stopped for no apparent reason and another in which a train accelerated to 45 MPH in a area where the MAS was 15 MPH. Gosh I miss my NYCT subway!
When I was out there 4 months ago, a Red Line train came out of Automatic control. We stopped fast but I don't know if it was BIE. The operator called on the radio and then proceded slow on manual. My only experience with Auto Train control gone bad.
About ten years ago (1988 or 1989) an incident similar to the one you are describing also happened while I was on a southbound Red Line Breda train as it approached Van Ness-UDC. Nothing terrible happened, mind you, just some jangled nerves. The operator got the situation under control very quickly.
Is this happening to the Rohrs or is it just a Breda problem or is it a general ATC problem?
Wayne
On Thursday and Friday I rode Breda trains and the operators were using the ATC. The article I read stated that riders should expect delays as trains would be operated manually system-wide. I'll see tomorrow morning.
Wayne
I have heard that elaborate plans were made for subways over the lower deck of the George Washington Bridge to Ft. Lee and beyond. Any plans of this? Any work or construction actually done on NY side? any visible evidence today? Where were projected lines to go?
The tracks were to go on what is now the lower level of the GWB--2 tks in the center. I've seen a cross section somewhere a long time ago. I'm not sure if the "space" in the center of the lower level is a theoretical "preservation" of this row or not. I've heard that the 174th St yard (center tracks at 168th St) were intended to connect to the Bridge, tho I've never actually seen it layed out.
Whether or not the space between the two lower level roadways on the GWB is wide enough for two B-division tracks, it dead-ends on the Jersey side while the two roadways pass through the cliffs of the Palisades in two separate tunnels. At least I assume there is still plenty of solid rock between those two yellow-tile-lined tunnels.
But what I wonder about more is how the political arrangements would have worked. Did the NYC Board of Transportation negotiate with local governments in New Jersey, with Bergen County, or with the State of NJ? Who would have legally been in charge of operations in NJ? Were any agreements actually reached, or was it just preliminary exploration that never got anywhere? Was a premium fare going to be charged - collected on board perhaps?
Prior to the days when they constructed that huge open ditch that we call the Cross Bronx Expressway there were two vehicular tunnels running accross Manhattan from the GWB to the Harlem River Speedway.
I believe that one ran under 178 St and the other under 179 St. I think that these tunnels are still intact but sealed off. Would anyone have info about them? Thanks.
Regards,Larry,RedbirdR33
I knew those tunnels well, I used to go to day camp in New Jersey, and every day (during the summer) the bus would go through that tunnel under 179th st. When we emerged into the light on the GWB we would all sing "Rise and Shine".
It looks like the tunnel under 179th at least is still there, and is used for some kind of cables or pipes. Electrical conduits, perhaps?
I don't know about its twin under 178th St.
As in the morning, the F and G trains were running half as frequently as usual. This is something they didn't tell you on the radio. As a result, the F train I caught was packed and broiling hot. It absolutely crawled from Jay to 7th Avenue. I felt like I was going to pass out. Get ready for some sick passenger delays on top of everything else.
I didn't see any sign of mass destruction on the lower level -- no burn marks, no nothing. Perhaps all the damage is in the control room and related wiring.
Unlike this morning, when Fs were running local inbound at least as far as 4th Avenue, the F trains were running express in both directions at 7th Avenue. It was 12 mintues before another southbound F arrived. It was 19 mintues before a third southbound F, and a local G, arrived. In that time, two northbound Fs (ten minutes apart) and one northbound G passed.
The half-service is clearly more of a problem than G only service on the F. If this continues, they might as well close Carrol, Smith 9th, 4th Avenue, Prospect Park, and Fort Hamilton, and tell everyone to take the bus. Maybe they could divert all available (and some unavailable) buses to the B75.
Otherwise, I hope they at least photocopy some G schedules so we'll at least know when they are coming.
Fortunately, I will be working in the field here in Brooklyn on Monday. Home more trains are running by Tuesday.
The news showed the fire damage. It was just the control panel. The fire didn't spread beyond that room, so you won't see smoke anywhere else.
(Just the control room burned). Talk about an achilles heel! The TA has fully restored service in days after subway crashes and floods to the tunnel roof, but this will screw things up for months.
Does the TA have fire suppression systems in these rooms that are installed in rooms with lots of electronics? I'm thinking of what used to be Halon systems, but those are no longer legal (really bad for the ozone layer) so they now use nitrogen systems that work the same way as an auto airbag. Instead of pouring water in with sprinklers, which might not help and might hurt, the system floods the room with nitrogen, depriving the fire of oxygen.
Anyone know if the TA uses these systems?
My trip, the normal F I get at Queens Plaza at 4:07ish didn't come until 4:20ish. At Jay Street conductor was annoucing Bergan as next stop and platform PA was annoucing 7th Ave.
Talk about confusion.
Closeup and start moving when conductor corrected himself, boy did people get mad.
Lower level crawl though Bergan St. When we got to Church a G train was sitting all closed up on the Manhattan Bound Local track. I assume F's were going around on the express, we passed an inbound F on the climb to Ditmas and it was switching to express.
Overall 20min or so added to the trip and a lot of confused people. Have to take the F this Saturday Afternoon, wonder what will happen.
A debate broke out today in Planningland. Perhaps someone here can settle it.
Is the MTA building a lower-level under its Queens Blvd line to 63rd St tunnel subway connection, for the LIRR? Someone seemed to think that the MTA was planning ahead, and building those parts of the LIRR link that would lie below the subway now, so it won't have to start over again later.
Since Sunnyside Yard runs almost up to Northern Blvd, if a lower level is being built from Northern Boulevard to the 63rd St tunnel the Queens side of the LIRR connection would be almost done. If a lower level was not being built at the same time as the subway connection, the LIRR portion would have to be built under the subway portion while the subway was operating.
Did the MTA plan ahead?
The tunnel was built with two levels from Fifth Ave to 41 Ave. The current construction in LIC extends the lower level to Northern Blvd. The subway turns left at this point and ramps up to join the existing line.
Whatever you think of the TA, the Feds wouldnt let that happen, since they paid for part of both levels. The current construction extends the "LIRR" level to the point where it clears the new route (along wit h a TA "bellmouth" that could go to Sunnyside or whereever. This was all done and paid for long before there was even a study for LIRR east side access.
Similarly, LIRR will have to extend the TA bellmouth under northern blvd. and to a point where the two can separate (TBD in preliminary eng.)
The MTA did plan ahead. The LIRR lower level does exist, and was extended slightly as part of the connection at 29th Street in Astoria. Previously, the subway tunnel only went to 41st ave and 29th street, and with the connection to queens blvd, the subway moved forwards and then curved to the left. The LIRR was extended staright forwards. All that remians to be built is a small section from Northern Blvd to Sunnyside yards, and the MTA purchased the building above this section, so building the connection should be no big deal. Connecting the 63rd street LIRR to Metro North anfd Grand Central will be a little more complex.
Nobody should ask if the MTA planned ahead. All they do is shuffle paper around! There are proposals for anything and everything around for expansion for all MTA agencies. The only problem, those who appropriate the money didn't come up with the bucks and probably never will.
Since the tunnel is built, how about this for new service. Build a temporary LIRR terminal under the 21st St station -- just two platforms on the side or in the center, depending on the configuration. Run some LIRR trains to 21st St, where riders can transfer for the trip through the 63rd St tunnel and down 6th Avenue.
Now, they would be using some capacity that rightly belongs to Queens, but some of those LIRR riders are from Queens. So if you were going to run, say, 20 locals with the 30 expresses, you run 30 locals instead. A good excuse to buy more B division cars, and maybe you could sneak a few for Brooklyn through with the support of Long Island pols.
This would also further expand the expectation that East Side Access WILL HAPPEN.
The store is now open for business (as of Thursday 3/11/99).
While the merchandise is basically the same the store is larger than the first store and definetly better than the carts they were using.
There is also an exhibit area.
The hours are : Weekdays 8AM - to 8 PM
Saturday 10AM - 4 PM
The store is located in between the Station Masters office and the Discovery Channel store.
The Official GRAND OPENING is scheduled for Tuesday March 23, 1999
between 5PM - 8PM.
With all that happened this morning was just a matter of time. It looks like lots of thing gone wrong. Trains going BIE over the switches at Parkchestor. AC Power outoages from Pelham to Hunts Point. Witch all seems to happen after the New Westchester Master tower was built witch controls the No.6 Line from Pelham Bay Park to 138 St - 3 AVE. Witch means Pelham, Parkchestor, And Hunts Point Towers can be eliminated. Ofcause if you hit any AUTO or Home signal it will relay to the Tower so they will know that you hit a signal. I wouldn't be supprised if we see more of these Delays. But hopefully the bugs will be fixed.
Also one more note. Most of the work unsupriseinly was done be outside contractors and Transit workers have to fix there mess ups.
I was seriously wondering if you are making false allegations about NYCT fixing the contractors problems. See my other postings. I will check with Safetran Systems on Monday with the engineer who worked on that project.
Don't blame the contractor if you don't have the facts from the inside.
You say you are surprised that the work was done by an outside contractor. NYCT always contracted signal work since 1904. This is standard for doing business in the past and will continue to be. Alstom (former GRS), Union Switch & Signal and Safetran Systems are the big and most experiences players. Did you know that all the equipment is to NYCT standards including the non-vital microprocessor used for route selection? The processor must be Modicom and no one else is acceptable. NYCT is a tough property to do business with and the acceptance of equipment is extremely tough. Did you know that it took 8 years to get the US & S M-3 switch machine accepted by NYCT?
DONE BE QUICK TO BLAME THE CONTRACTOR.
I said I'm not suprised by Contracters they do all the Major Track work.
You were talking about signal problems and not trackwork. One has nothing to do with the other.
what a price to pay for new technology? My T/O class given a tour of Westchester Master when we were at the yard a couple of weeks ago and the setup looked pretty spiffy. Now you can really say big brother is watching, alarms will sound if a red automatic is keyed-by... of course the master plan seems to eliminate most of if not already obsolete towers in approach to the new command center. What we were told is Parkchester/Hunt Point towers are closed and Westchester Master operates the yard and mainline Pelham Bay Park to 138th 3rd av.
Welcome aboard to the IRT from one IRT T/O to another. If you have any qestions feel free to email me. Right now i'm on the No.1 line 5 days.
Safetran Systems did the signaling on Pelham with L.K. Comstock as the prime contractor. The alarms you speak of are for a train violating or keying-by a red automatic signal. When the train violates a red automatic them the track occupancy light on both the tower and maintainers panel with flash red. Additional protection was built into the home relays. Cycle checking of both the home and distance train stops are checked in the home relay circuit. This is done to prevent rear end collisions when a downstream stop is held down with hold down hook or frozen. I believe these circuit changes are excellent.
not to mention all the timers added from Pelham Bay Park to 138th 3rd ave of most sincerely WD too!
This has been an ongoing problem.
There are times when during PM rush the Parkchester bound trains have to run express because the switches at Parkchester are not working (that means the Pelham bound trains run local).
As a transit buff I can understand the problem. As a customer it really gets me ticked off.
I wonder will they ever get the situation resolved and how long it would take.
The R143s will have many modern features that _should_ make them run better, cheaper, and longer than equipment of 80 years ago. Metrocard has updated the fare collection system enormously.
Are power and signalling systems being updated with the same speed? As compared to other transit systems and railroads (yes, it is hard to campare the subway system to any system anywhere...) are the New York subways behind, average, or advanced in modernizing power and signal/control systems?
How many of these "master towers" have been built?
One more question (at least for now): In interlocking systems, must all "vital controls" still be relays, or have microprocessors snuck their way in? It seems that there are millions of "vital" uses of microprocessors in the world, is there any proof that relays are still more reliable?
David, the 'witch' that you need to use is 'which.' Unless you're implying your opinions of certain dispatchers :)
-Hank
Thanks for the currection I don't now why I made that mistake
I would like to know what are your plans when full Manhattan Bridge rail service is restore in 2001.
Sincerely,
John
It's not going to fully reopen that year. See Peter's response to Larry in "F express" thread below. He says both sides will be open part time. This is news to me, as it was always assumed that it would switch sides (6th Av close, Bway open) in the next phase. Then, it would be like '86-88, except for a V extending through the 63rd St connection, instead of a shuttle from 57th or 21st to Grand.
Full bridge service won't be until '03 at the earliest. There's a long way to go till then.
I read in Saturday's New York Times & I don't like one plan at all. I think that you & NYCT staff should use this plan instead, the plan is.
1)Operate Manhattan bound F trains express between Jay St & Church Av stopping at 7th Av, passengers from 15th St & Ft. Hamilton Pkwy that want to go to Manhattan on the F should take the G train(extended to Church Av) to 7th Av & transfer to the Manhattan bound F trains. F train passengers south of Church Av that want local stations between Church Av & Carroll St should transfer to the G train at either Church Av or at 7th Av. Passengers who ride the F trains going to Manhattan at 4th Av, Smith 9th Sts & Carroll St should take G trains to Hoyt/Schermerhorn Sts & transfer to the Manhattan bound A & C trains, then take Manhattan bound A or C trains to Jay St for F trains or to West 4th St for all 6th Av service. Since there are alot of Carroll Gardens residents that go to Lower Manhattan or Greenwich Village rather than MIdtown would have the easier connection by taking the G train at Carroll St to Hoyt/Schermerhorn St & transferring to the Manhattan bound A & C trains to Lower Manhattan & Greenwich Village.
2)Operate Coney Island bound F trains express between Jay St & Church Av stopping at 7th Av. Passengers on the F train coming from Manhattan & want to go to 15th St & Ft. Hamilton Pkwy should take F trains to 7th Av & transfer to the G trains(extended to Church Av). Coming from Manhattan on the F train that want to go to Carroll St, Smith 9th Sts & 4th Av should get off at Jay St & transfer to the Queens bound A & C trains one stop to Hoyt/Schermerhorn Sts & transfer to the G trains for Carroll St, Smith 9th Sts & 4th Av. If you are coming from Lower Manhattan & even West 4th St on the A & C trains that want to go to Carroll St, Smith 9th Sts & 4th Av should stay on the A & C trains to Hoyt/Schermerhorn Sts & transfer to the G trains for those three stops instead of transferring to the F trains at Jay St since the Coney Island bound F trains will bypass those three stops.
For Bergen St from the F train, riders can transfer between the F trains & the Shuttle bus or the B65 & B75 buses at Jay St & the shuttle bus will continue on to Hoyt/Schermerhorn St where riders can transfer between the G train & the Shuttle bus to Bergen St.
I think that this is a better plan until the Bergen St Station & interlockings are finished. I think that the G trains running into 2 services Bedford/Nostrand to Queens & from Bedford/Nostrand to Hoyt/Schermerhorn St & terminating there is a BIG & I mean & BIG mistake & F train riders on the local tracks near Bergen St will even slow up service even more with overcrowing trains etc. I think it would be best to operate all F trains express between Jay ST & Church Av & let the G trains be extended to Church Av to displaced F train riders & regular G train riders to relieve overcrowing on the F train & so G train riders would not have to make double transfer connections.
Please reconsider this plan & talk to your staff about this & see if it can be done right away, don't mess up G train riders on the whole line.
Sincerely,
Mike
Both express are out of service. Apparently, the relay room is down there with the wiring and cables lead up to the tower on the upper level.
{I read in Saturday's New York Times & I don't like one plan at all. I think that you & NYCT staff should use this plan instead, the plan is. }
Make note of the disclaimer at the top of the index page. Thos board has no affiliation with the Transit Authority, although there are several TA employees that read and post to this board, I don't believe anyu of them have a say in long-term planning and operations.
-Hank
Does anyone know how B.I.D.s (Business Improvement Districts) were used to finance the West Side subways? Where can I find the detailed information on this? I am doing research on the feasibility of the second Avenue Subway. Would appreciate any info on financing.
Thanks.
BIDs were not used for the west side subways; they didn't exist when they were built. What we are discussing is "adopt a station." No private business could cover the cost of the subway tunnels and trains.
My idea is this: the only way Americans invest in the future is "forced savings", like payroll deductions you can't spend because you don't see them, and mortgage payments you have to make.
I would replace the expiring New York City personal income tax surcharge for cops with one for subway improvements. I would enact a similar surcharge on the commuter tax for suburbanites, and use it for LIRR/Metro North improvements -- perhaps another NJT tunnel as well if New Jersey stops ripping us off through the Port Authority. The city and suburb money doesn't mix, so the suburbs can't rip us off.
Concurrently, I'd cut state income taxes by an equivalent amount. City residents and suburb to city commuters would be no worse off than before, and those who live and work in the suburbs or upstate would get a tax cut.
And what would the state spend less on, to make up for the tax cut? If you've read my posts before, you know the answer.
Thanks for the updating of my Substations #21 Page. All should enjoy.
Yesterday my school was leaving to Lehman College for sports. The schools bus company could not pick us up today so we decided to take the the 4 train to Bedford. We were lucky since we were one stop from Burnside (The trains were running express from Burnside to Mosholu Parkway) So we missed a Manhattan Bound train so we decided to go and wait. So we waited for 30 minutes and no train came. What was wrong? I though that when there is one train at a terminal and another train enters the other train was supposed to leave. Well two trains passed and no train! What went wrong with the four line?
There was a sick passenger at Bedford Park Boulevard on the Manhattan Bound 4, causing all kinds of delays.
-Constantine
Last night while waiting for a downtown #1 at 168th street, a mixed consist of 5 lead redbirds and 5 R-62's all bearing #6 signage passed through and headed downtown. Does anyone have any thoughts as to where these trains were coming from and where they were headed?
mb
They were probably coming back from the Spa (a.k.a. The 207th Street Shoppe) after having their saunas and facials. :o)
Wayne
A question Ive always had about the IRT/PATH systems; I know the old H&M built their system pretty close to Interborough standards,BUT could a PA unit comfortably fit on the IRT? And vice versa-could a train of Redbirds run on the Newark-World Trade Line (or Hoboken to anywhere..)?? Just curious....
a PATH car is 48 1/2" long and IRT width. It seems that PATH cars might run on the IRT but not vice-versa
Weren't my beloved Class K PATH cars built in the same shape as our Redbirds? They sure LOOK similar.
Wayne
I always wondered why the K-class cars weren't *exactly* like the redbirds, or at least the R22's which St. Louis was building around the same time...
The Class K's(or MP-52's) were probably the most comfortable rapid transit cars ever built with those thick plush seats. They were built for the PATH/PRR Joint Service and had to met ICC Regulations. Another plus was the air-conditioning of which the PRR had much experience while the NYCTA was still oppossed to it.
Regards,RedbirdR33
Old timers tell me that the "K" class was built to PRR's specs; H&M didn't have much input as to design.
More recently, the PA's Rail Planning Dept. (laugh) is said to have rejected a modified R-62 design in favor of its own PA-4. The results are endured by PATH's customers every day.
Yes, I can sympathize. The PA-4 has hardly any seats at all. I guess it was built for standees only. However, I happen to think that the PA-4 looks better than the boxy R62. Aesthetics, however is NOT everything.
I still miss the K Cars. Maybe a museum will pick one of the few remaining units up and restore it to its former glory (#1243, #1244, #1246 etc. surviving as work motors)
Wayne
> The PA-4 has hardly any seats at all.
It doesn't really matter when the car is at 110% capacity anyway. I haven't had a seat on a PATH train in who knows how long.
-Dave
Dave: PATH loading can't be the same on all four lines. Maybe it would make sense to put the PA-4's with the three doors on the heaviest line while the cars with two doors could go to the lines having a more point to point service. I realize that this is an imperfect solution but right now the equiptment seems to be assigned willy-nilly.
Best Wishes,Larry
> PATH loading can't be the same on all four lines.
Ride any line heading into the city at 8:20 am. You'll see the crush loads I am speaking of. People at Grove and Newport consistently have to skip trains on the NWK->WTC and JSQ->33rd Line because they are too crowded to get on. I think offpeak is probably equally distributed as well at this point. Last year (1997), ridership was way up on PATH and I think we'll hear the same for 1998 once they release the numbers.
> Maybe it would make sense to put the PA-4's with the three doors
> on the heaviest line
That seems like an interesting thing to try; use all the PA-4's to make up 12 8-car trains for WTC-NWK service. Of course, that's just being selfish. During rush hour all the lines are seriously overcrowded, equally. :)
Hopefully the Pa-5's will continue the 3-door layout.
-Dave
Time to bring some K Cars out of mothballs! :o)
Wayne
The PA-4 with its three offset doors per side is a crowd-swallower which, if you've ridden the PATH during rush hour, is a must. The PA1,2,3 cars suffer from people unwilling to stand in the middle or especially the ends whereas the PA-4 doesn't have as much of that going on...
Yes. They do handle the crowds well. The PA 1-2-3's were built in an era when passenger loads were nowhere near what they are today. Remember the transverse seats at the car ends? Removing those when they were rebuilt reduced seating by about 8 per car. Very unpopular at the time, but the right move considering today's passenger counts.
Yes. They do handle the crowds well. The PA 1-2-3's were built in an era when passenger loads were nowhere near what they are today. Remember the transverse seats at the car ends? Removing those when they were rebuilt reduced seating by about 8 per car. Very unpopular at the time, but the right move considering today's passenger counts.
Are other dimensions compatible, such as:
1) Vertical distance from rails to platform level;
2) Position of third rail, both vertically and horizontally;
3) Position and height of "stop arms" at signals?
Any idea on which curve(s) the three-foot difference between the IRT and PATH cars would make a difference (is 48 1/2 feet the longest a PATH car has ever been)?
Most likely (this is a guess on my part) w. of Christopher Street (especially that nasty little "S" curve) and north of 9th Street. It would be tough modifying a Yerkes-style tube for car clearance purposes, I would think. Maybe Rob Morel or Simon Billis (well, he's stateside now, I believe), could think of places in the LU where tubes were modified for different stock. Come to think of it, if I manage to hook up with Simon tomorrow (that is, if the snow doesn't knock out the LIRR Babylon Branch), I will ask him meself.
Wayne
According to an H&M Roster in the June 64 issue of Headlights the Class E(401-436) and Class J (501-520) cars were 51'3 1/2. Class K (1230-1249) and PRR Class MP 52 (1200-1229) were also 51' 3 1/2". There also were two baggage cars(B-2,B-3) which were used in work service and they were 50'7" long.
Regards,Larry
Just dug my PATH spec sheet out of the files; PA 1-2-3-4 are all listed as 51'-3" long at the couplers. They're 11'-8 7/16" high, and 9'-2 3/4" wide at the belt rail.
Hope this helps....
Sounds like if the third rails are compatable, the PATH and IRT could mix their systems easily. Now all that's left to worry about are the NIMBYs, the PATH-MTA antipathy, the PRR regulations, etc...
A historical note here is that the H&M was built by William McAdoo in 1904, who was "The" railway engineer of the time, which was when the IRT & BMT had a pre Dual Contract stranglehold on rapid transit in the City. It may have been thought that the H&M trains could run anywhere in the NYC Subway system at the time. Of course, that did not come to pass.
Possibly, the engineering difficulties of building the LIRR approach to Penn Station and the 6th Ave route of the H&M past 34th St may have brought an earlier demise to the 6th Ave El (An IRT/Mellon property). The issue of the H&M clearences became another problem with the inception of the Independent Subway (IND), with it's clearances close to the BMT system as a rebuff to the IRT/Mellon system, which resulted in the elimination the IRT Els from Manhattan Island, and sadly no connection to the H&M Interurban/state line.
I notice that there are 2 about 10 cars or more from the No. 5 witch are R 26/28/29. They been there for at least about 2 weeks. Are they getting parts or getting ready for the scarp Yard?
probably these cars are ready for the scrap heap and what ever remaining parts that are operable will be used for the ones that can still run.
Main shop work perhaps since those cars are there frequently.
true that
Hi all,
As I was completing the "Time based" maps... I realized I looked at a bit outdated map, since I don't have the most current "The Map" I need to know if the following:
1) S (63rd St. Shuttle) 21st-QB to ??? 57th or ?? Is it 24 hour/7 day operation to 57th or what?
2) Is the 6, 7 & J still running midday peak express services?
will be back in an hour to check the response...making sloppy joes burgers..hehe
Thanks in advance,
Michael
1) The 63rd St. "S" runs to 34th St. Mon-Fri rush hours and midday (two trains, passing each other at 57th St.) and to 57th St. at other times (one train).
2) No midday express service on the #6 or #7. The J does run express middays from Eastern Parkway to Marcy Ave. in the peak direction, which changes at about 12 noon, as well as skipping Bowery station in both directions. At least that is what the posted signs and maps say.
The #7 just re-started mid-day express service.
David: Please check your E-mail for items that I said I would send to you.
Regards,Larry
Hi,
I don't seem to have any email from you today or recently but then since you didn't post your email address here maybe I am just not seeing it. You don't need to post here to remind me to check my email, I read that more frequently than SubTalk but sometimes I can't correlate email addresses with Subtalk posters' handles :-)
-Dave
David: I don't seem to be having much luck with my e-mail today as your the second person I e-mailed at 7pm Sat and has not yet received anything. The items I promised will be posted tomorrow on Sunday,sorry about the delay.
Best Wishes,Larry
Karl: Please check your e-mail for response to your query.
Regards,Larry
Larry RedbirdR33, As of 9:05 PM EST no Email. I will keep checking. Thanks in advance for your help.Karl B.
Karl: I e-mailed you at 7 PM and again at 11PM.If you don't get these by tomorrow(Sun) let me know and I'll respond over sub-talk. I guess I'm doing something wrong with my e-mail but I don't know what.
Best Wishes,Larry
The Los Angeles Times today reported (see http://www.latimes.com/excite/990313/t000022808.html)
that the long awaited 4.6-mile $$$$ Red Line extension will open 90 days from now. Maybe, just maybe, New York's Second Avenue Subway might really be a possibility after all. You never know.
It we could build the 2nd Avenue Subway for 1 1/2 times the cost of the Red Line per mile, high as it was, we could do it. But the MTA is estimating $1 billion per mile.
Just saw a news item yesterday, the scheduled opening of the Red Line extension is scheduled now to be June 12, 1999.
Wayne, I was driving past the UPS depot on Foster Ave. the other day and noticed train tracks running across the street just past E. 105 and before Bank Street. What is/was this trackage? Was it a former spur from the old Bay Ridge Line, or was it related to the Canarise L line trackage? (I noticed this track ends up running alongside the southbound L track for about 2 or 3 blocks between warehouse facilities and the NYCT L train right-of-way).
Thanks for your help with this.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
I saw that last June during one of my tours (the one where I took the photos at the outdoor stations) - it was running behind the white factory building next to E105 Street station. I didn't pay it too much attention back then. It could have been old trolley tracks you saw, although it also could have been a spur off the Bay Ridge. If you go by there again, check near the intersection of Bank, DeWitt and Avenue "D" to see if the tracks are there - if they did lead to the Bay Ridge, that is where they would have branched off.
Wayne
Subject says it all. Was the station there before the connection was built? If so, what routing served it?
It is Grand Street. That became a new station when the connection was built.
David. You are confusing two similar sounding names. Grand Avenue is on the E/F/G/R lines in Queens and the other station is Grand Street and opened with Chrystie Street.
Bill answered your question very well.
OK,
Clarify something for me then....What trains used the 6th Ave side of the Manhattan Bridge prior to the Grand St station(1967)? Was it used and I guess the first station you'd hit was Bdwy Lafayette?
The west end and sea beach and brighton trains went up Broadway in those days----OK I know someone out there has the answer.
HK
Prior to the connection the "6th Ave" north side went to Broadway and the south side went to Nassau. Check the track maps: Track Maps. There are both before and after versions available.
-Dave
The "6th Avenue side" of the Manhattan Bridge tracks used to lead to Canal Street station, the way the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge do now. Thus, the Q (Brighton Express), QB (Brighton Local via Bridge), N and T (West End Express) used those tracks. The south side tracks used to connect with the Chambers Street Station of the Nassau Street line. I'm not sure any line used them right before Christie Street was open, but many years before the West End Local and Culver Local used to run in loops (to Nassau Street via the bridge and back to Brooklyn via the tunnel, or vice versa).
Service on that side ended the Wednesday before the connection opened (Thurs was Thanksgiving and Fri they began the reconfiguration of that side) It was used only by 5, I believe, rush hour 4th Av specials, and Brighton specials deadheading to or from service via tunnel.
You may also be confusing this with Grand Av. in Brooklyn. There was such a station at the point where the Myrtle Av. and Lexington Av. lines diverged. It was removed long before the Myrtle Av. El ceased operations in 1969, presumably along with the Lexington Av. El in 1950.
Bob Sklar
No
On Sat. March 13 at 12:36PM at Van Courtland Terminal a train that was to leave reported to the Dispatchor that there was no working Buzzer between T/O and C/R. The Dispatchor ordered the train to proceed in service anyway and use the radio. The T/O called Control Center because he felt it was unsafe. But no answer so the Dispatchor thorth it was the C/R holding up the train and takes the C/R out of service for hold up the line. But it realy was the T/O. Then she figures it out and put the Conductor in service on the next train. She tryed to take the T/O out but he relesed the Brakes. But was not takeing out service on the return. Now my question is can you leave a Terminal with passendgers and no working Buzzer? Also who was right the T/O or T/D? The T/D and RCI said it ok to leave the Terminal as long as you have a working PA and Radio. Anothor T/O said no because what if you have to do Buzzer/Bypass. My point of view is there was another train in the other pocket and they should have taken that train. As a T/O I would have in the samething. But if I'm ordered to take it down the road I would have toke the train to 238 St and then call Control Center.
What do you think?
And I thought all this I.R.T supervision was the best.You can leave a terminal without a working buzer if permitted by the dispatcher.If you had no indication,you cannot leave the terminal in service.Unfortunately,the T.D was right.However, she overreacted by trying to take the conductor out of service.I agree with your point of view about taking the train across the platform depending on the headway.If it's eight to ten minutes(I don't even think it's that),you could short relay. Less than that,the T.D should arrange for the b/o train to go to the yard upon arrival at VCP. I'm in the process of turning down the T.D job. There is no seniority system with that job.Same goes for those no good TSSs.Besides,I don't want all the aggravation.
Well the IRT lost alot of its great Supervision. Most are retired but there are good and bad out there. I noticed the IRT on the East side the TSS are more friendly then the ones on the West Side. But I noticed the TSS and SUPT are more spit.It seems like the New TSS from B Div go to A Div and the other way around. Thats why I'm thining about exploring the idea of seeing the other side of town.
Heck I was at Stillwell, the Conductor gets on board, annouces over the PA "I have to close the doors for a moment, I will reopen them".
Ding Dong doors close.
Not a second passes and on the PA, "Open Up on the D, Open Up"
Then "Conductor Report to the Dispatcher on that D".
Big fight, ensues, something (heard to overhear) like "someone closed down without the green lights."
New Conductor comes, Ding on the Bell, Green Lights and we close down . Off we go, pass two D's waiting at West 8th.
As a pax, it was amazing, I think there was a stuck door or somthing the conductor want to close and open to free it. But that's a guess.
It looks like that Dispachors is another winner. Is that why trains missterisly go BIE of enfore the rule on Calling Control when stoped outside a Term. with red Signals. This Disppachor seems to be like the two no good Incompent Disapachors at Van Courtlandt which are Ms. Coleman on the AM'S and Ms. Bush on the PM'S. but they wount be there for long the Gen. SUPT of the west side kicked them out. Ms. Bush gets away with 3 day work weeks by calling sick. But if I do that I get a call from Labor Relations.
At Stillwell Avenue, the conductors close up momentarily to change positions on the R-46s, R-68s and R-68As. This is SOP. I can't imagine the dispatcher getting bent out of shape over that. There had to be more to it.
When the arriving train comes in, the conductor is supposed to close the doors and reopen in the new position for the next conductor. I'm only speculating, but what may have happened is this: the arriving conductor did not change positions for the next guy or if it was a put in, it was opened from the wrong position. Here comes the leaving conductor, he sees the train is zoned improperly, closes down temporarily to leave in the correct position, and the dispatcher has a panic attack.
Thats wrong the arriving conductor is supposed to close down and de-zone on that type of equipment.the arriving conductor will also key open doors on certian cars.The new conductor will establish the new position..
You are correct Frankie, that is what the Bulletin states. But as we all know what is done in practice can be a totaly different thing.
And if I left a train on the stand with all the doors closed except the crew doors on a nice day with 5 minute headways, I would never hear the ned of it.
David,
I have Bulletin # 77-95
Subject: Revision of rule 42(A) - Communication between Conductors and Train Operators - All equipment.
(Bulletin states in part):
If the train buzzer is inoperative, the train intercom or PA system may be used as an alternative......
If the train buzzer, intercom, and PA system are inoperative at the normal Conductor's position on trains equipped with transveres cabs, Conductor will use the immediately adjacent transverse cab as an alternate operating position.
In the event that the train buzzer, intercom, and PA system are ALL inoperative, the train MUST NOT leave the terminal carrying passingers.
Rule 42(a), "Signal needed to start train", is revised to read as follows:
A Train Operator must not move the controller handle to start a train carrying passangers untill the Train Operators indication is lit. He/she must also receive two long buzzer signals or voice communications from the Conductor before starting:
1. From a terminal;
2. After an emergency stop; or
3. After cars are added or cut.
If the train buzzer fails, the conductor must use either the train intercom or PA system to tell the the Train Operator to proceed. A train must not leave a terminal carrying passangers if the train buzzer, intercom, and PA system are all inoperative.
As far as your question about who was right and who was wrong, I would have to interview or read statement from all involved before I could make charges. One thing is clear, the rule and bulletin are silent about the use of a radio. The use of a radio is not a good idea as it is not solid communication.
Thank you for the Bulletin. I better look throw those bulletins. Who knows what next is going to happen. I know your also in the IRT maybe will work together one day. My SAT job is open.
While we're on the subject of buzzers:
What was the deal with prewar equipment? I know the R-1/9s had buzzers, which were much mellower and not nearly as harsh sounding as on postwar cars. What about the BMT standards and Triplexes? I don't ever remember hearing a buzzer when leaving 8th Ave. on the Canarsie when the standards were still around.
Believe it or not, I can't remember what the R-10 buzzer sounded like, and the last time I rode on the R-10s was from Bedford Park on a C train.
Dave Foster, the next time a situation like this comes up and the dispatcher orders you to take the train in passenger service with no buzzer and you cannot reach command via the radio, follow school car. Secure your train, step off the train, go up to the dispatchers office and call command center. You will see the dispatcher change her tune real quick. (Of course she may get on your hide about every little infraction) But remember, no buzzer is a safety issue.
If you were to leave the terminal with no buzzer and you called from 238, command would come right back and tell you , you should know the rules and not have taken that train.
As a motor instructor in the IRT, I tell anyone who asks, if you have a problem, any kind of problem and you cannot reach control, secure your train and find a phone.
Thanks that clears up everything. Hey someone on the Eastside before before i left said that the Westside is the Mismanaged side of town. I can't wait to go back to the No.6 Line where the Motor Instructor are helpful. Hey feel free to email me.
Guess what Dave FosterR26, there are good and bad Motor instructors on the east side, west side, B Division...please don't generalize. Just take advantage of the ones who know thier stuff and avoid the ones that are not as knowledgable. (By taking advantage, I mean pick their brains for info. If a motor instructor has the time to help, he will.
Lately, the good ones have been few and far between. Perhaps that's because of the "rigid" qualifications for taking the TSS exam. To take the TSS exam you must have been in the title of train operator for 2 years and at least one year must have been in road service. Any wonder why most TSSs can't properly isolate a train?
Any TSSs care to coment?
I am seeking information for a screenplay I am writing. It is loosely based on the movie "The Taking of Pelham 123". In my film a subway car is commandeered and those who commandeer it must uncouple their train from the rest. Is this a realistic occurrence? In "Pelham" it's done in a very unclear way. I also have other qiestions as well. ANyone out there that can help me. I will give screen credit.
erevolver@hotmail.com
Uncoupling and coupling cars is an every day occurrence. If there is a coupler, it can be uncoupled. In Pelham 1 2 3, it was quite clear how the train was cut. The motorman's cutting key was inserted into the cutting valve and the train was cut. On the R-44/R-46 it's done a little differently but the concept is essentially the same.
The original Pelham doesn't show Martin Balsam inserting, then turning, the cutting key; nor does it show him moving the reverse key into reverse. The scene starts at the point where he pushes down on the controller, then moves it into switching position, after which the cars are seen uncoupling. The remake, as bad as it is, does show all this taking place.
P. S. Dod you notice how Balsam looks behind his shoulder as the train is backing up, as if he could actually see anything on the track behind him?
There were many technical aspects of the movie that were not shown. They didn't show how the conductor operated the doors nor did they show that he had to change opsitions before and after stopping at Grand central Station. This was a movie about a crime and not an instructional video about how to operate a train. If it were, the Rube Goldberg device they came up with to defeat the deadman's feature would have ruined the movie. Never heard any complaints about that!!!!!
Actually, 2 years in service and 1 year as road train operator is not that rigid. It should probably be more years.
One reason that relativly new Tss's have trouble isolating a train could be because breakdowns occur very infrequently. How many T/O's have had to isolate a car? On the road? This is not the 80's when it was a regular thing amd motormen had to move alot of garbage equipment by any means necccesary. In addition, when new train operators come out of school car, they do not spend 1 year in the yard(really getting to learn the equipment and breakdowns and moving bad cars). They are immediatly put in road service.
On the other hand, there is no incentive for the senior, more experienced T/O's to go for the promotion to TSS. There is an increase in money, but your seniority goes out the door. And in the supervisory titles, there is no true pick. There is a "selection" but it is a selection by the superintendents.
Another thing....if you really want to have a good TSS test....Make it a fill in the blank test, not multiple choice. Then we'll see who really knows their stuff.
Actually, I'd perfer a practical exam for TSSs be included with the written test. The point you make about the inability of crews to move B/O trains is a very valid one. That very point was made by one of the B division General Superintendents while we were discussing a recent protracted delay in PM service. The fact that the equipmentis in better shape and breaks down far less often should not be viewed as a negative. Perhaps TSSs should, as part of their critiques ask the crew, "What would you do if......?"
I agree If you want to be a TSS now your stuff. I think have of them pass it by guessing. Right now I put in to take the TSS Exam in june. But I don't know if I realy it I just want to see how good I can score. My son bourt my a study guide book and the Qestions look easy. But I realy don't know if I want to give up 10 YRS of senarity and living in the Pocono's.
Sorry I mad an Error
( I think have pass it by gessing)
I ment I think half of them pass the Exam by gessin
That isn't the only mistake.
OK, OK, give him a break. We went through this once before.
Some of us do....,while refresher courses are few and far between, as part of my regular regimen i'll throw out a question regarding a breakdown. The idea is to get the motorman or conductor thinking. It's not really bad if someone does not know something or if a procedure was forgotten, that's what a Tss is for. I wish crews would ask more questions. The more operating personnel know, the better off everyone is.
From your posting, I gather that you are a TSS. Delays charged to DCE naturally keep me from meeting my goals. I find that the simplest way to avoid those delays and trains coming out of service is to ride with the crews, talk to the crews and find out what they like and don't like (or understand) about the equipment. Where I can make changes, i do. Where I can't, I explain why I can't change something.
I find that there is a general lack of understanding in how the equipment operates, especially the dreaded R-44 or R-46. For example, on some the air brake light comes on immediately and on some, it comes on just before the train stops. Most operators don't know why and worse yet, which is correct or what it means. When I explain, I invariably get the same "Why don't the TSSs tell us that?"
I find on the LIRR, the equipment is in far worse shape (believe it or not) but the corperate mindset from the crews to supervision to management is that if it has wheels - it rolls. Picture a NYCT train with 4 hot/dark cars remaining in service with the end doors tied open. Duting that summer, that's a regular occurrence on the LIRR. I'm not saying it's right but the mindset is that the OTP & MDBF goals must be made. To be more relevant, when I was an RCI if a wheel had no more than 3" of flats in any quadrant, the train stayed in service. Now that the equipment is in so much better shape, trains come out of service for far less. TSSs (most) say "Found as Reported" and few will actually say that the train is okay to remain in service. I fear it's not because they don't care about MDBF or OTP but just don't know what is or isn't okay anymore.
Actually you are somewhat right. A list has been printed up by schoolcar as to what stays in service and what does not. I'll Have to dredge it up. But understand that the problem lies from the top people in Control (and the Chief Transportation Officer) all the way down to conductors. Enough people don't know the job, are not taught properly and don't give a darn to care that it makes it difficult for those of us that do.
I still say that operating personnel need to ask more questions of Tss's. And if you doubt what one says, ask two or three. Find out which one seems to give the most accurate info.
Okay, let me ask you (and anyone else who cares venture more than a guess) these two questions:
Question #1
My question about R-46s. When you call for a 40 Lb. brake, one train gives you an immediate air brake light while the other doesn't until just before the train stops. Which train is operating correctly and what is the significance of the immediate A/B light and the delayed A/B light?
Question #2
You have an R-46 (no passengers) with a brakepipe rupture. Fortunately, it's in the rear section of the train. You BCO and MCO the rear section, pull the angles at the conductors position and manually retrieve the electric portions. The conductor goes to the last car (as required). You charge up and are ready to proceed via head car operation to the yard. You take your rolling test and everything seems fine. What will likely happen before you reach the yard?
There are several TSSs and T/Os on this site including one who works the F regularly. These are not trick questions and I'd be curious to see how many correct answers we get from NYCT operating personnel. When you are done with these, I have more if you are interested?
It has been a while since I worked on R44 or R46 equipment but i'll take a stab without consulting my colleagues....
#1-When the air brake light illuminates immediatly with the inception of a 40lb brake, there is no dynamic brake. You only have friction brake. The Air Brake light illuminates when there is air in the brake cylinder.
#2-First you cannot move because you need 2 good cars for every BCO, you must test the handbrakes on the BCO cars and if the handbrakes are inoperable you must have a TSS on the train....Rule 43 (d) "DO NOT move any car with the air brakes not working unless two (2) cars with working brakes are coupled to each car with bad brakes. In such cases, the handbrakes on the cars with air brakes not working must be tested before moving. If the handbrakes do not work, the cars must not be moved except under supervision."
You are correct about the first question. When the motorman calls for a brake, every car should go into dynamic braking until the train slows to 5-6 MPH when the dynamic brake fades and the air brake is applied. If one car does not go into dynamic brake, you will get an equivalent pneumatic brake in that car. This does not effect the performance of the brakes but the air brake light will light immediately. If all cars are operating properly, the AB light will light just as the train stops.
As for the second question, let's assume the train is moved under supervision isolated 4 and 4 as previously stated. What will happen? We are talking mechanically, not rules!!!
One should probably cut 1-8, CB+ and GS on the sleds.
Jeff, MCO means cut out the 1-8, GS & CB+
Ooops, yes, you did say MCO.
Is this self-uncoupling considered a bug or a feature of the
OB couplers?
Well, here we go with the technical stuff again:
There are two pins in the electric portion referred to as the LS and LSA. They are safety features that disable the hook control circuit. When the electric portions are retrieved and locked back, the LS and LSA (actually not pins but switches) close. The LS and LSA serve two purposes. One is a safety feature and the other is to tell the logic that the car is not coupled. With the portion retrieved, the logic does not see the car it's coupled to. Now, as the cars move, there is normal play in the coupler heads. There is also an inductive (proximity) sensor in the coupler head which is supposed to sense the opposing coupler hook. With the LS & LSA disabled if the normal buffing/stretching action of moving BCOd cars may cause the hook sensor to lose the sense of the opposing hook. Without the LS and LSA, this will send an uncouple signal to the logic and when the cars buff, the hooks will dis-engage. The NYAB manual has alerted all operating personnel to this feature but it is sometimes overlooked.
That's hysterical! An inductive sensor in the coupler head.
Talk about over-engineering. I'm guessing all of this is
so when you hit the uncouple switch on one car, the hook gets
pulled on the other car and then you can back off your cut.
Was this an issue on the pre-GOH R46? How about the GOH R-44?
I seem to recall a few pull-apart problems when those cars were new.
My 2¢ worth....I prefer H2C.
I had an A train at 145th street which pulled apart north of the station from the link bars a few years back. I love it when a plan comes apart! The pullaparts are far and few with my H2Cs. I heard they are not in production anymore so that is why those 110a cars have the spears like the ARROW IIIs. By the way those are one piece casted so if you add on a curve and break it off the whole drawhead goes, at least the ones at NJT. Ive heard of conductors on the road pressing the uncoupler buttons by mistake and causing pullaparts, some resulting in the train never dumping, because in the days the electric portion being advanced broke the P-wire loop and the M/M indication but if the conductor was in the forward half the train never dumped as he pushed the button. We were ordered to treat this condition as if the train had dumped and recharged and most of the time we did find a pullapart. At least most conductors I know can't accidentally cut the H2cs.
My favorite pull apart story came before the R44's had drawbars. One morning an A train arrived at Nostrand Ave. and the doors never opened. The motorman looked back and saw everybody in the rear of the station running toward the front. It seemed he only had 2 cars! The other 6 pulled apart somewhere between Utica Ave. and there and his 2 cars did not go into emergency like they were supposed to do.
Wait a minute....
Trains come apart IN TRANSIT????
Not a common occurance, I'd hope!
What causes it?
R44's do things other cars don't do. I haven't operated one in years. I hear they are better, but when something is so bad, it can only improve. They have improved since GOH, but I sense they need lots more TLC to keep them going compared to other cars.
While we're on the subject of pull-aparts/uncouplings:
Did this ever happen with the R-16s?
Somewhere back in this thread someone mentioned a conductor being able to operate an uncouple switch. It seems to me that this should be interlocked in some way as to not operate unless a reverse key is inserted (not necessarily in forward or reverse since you should have to compress uncouple and then reverse off).
The process should be two steps. First isolate the cars, second uncouple. The isolation process breaks all train line and air connections, and enables uncoupling. This is a necessity in case of a breakdown. The uncoupling process should be doable from either car but require a key as above. It sounds like a case of the system becoming just too complicated.
I like:
1. Throw the drum switch on each car.
2. Close the straight air and emergency pipe valves on each car.
3. Manually pull out the uncoupling lever while another person compresses the coupling.
It worked reliably on OB couplers in Boston for years. :)
Immediately after the R-44/46 went through overhaul, the potential for the C/R uncoupling the train became evident (although this would not be an accident). To protect against this possibility, a "3-way Valve" was installed in every 'A' car. If the uncoupling cycle is initiated while the train is charged (if the C/R puts his key in the console and hits the uncouple button) as soon as the train begins to cut, both sections will immediately go into emergency. The only way to prevent this from happening is to initiate the uncouple command BEFORE the train is charged. This is school car instruction anyway.
Of course, all bets are off if the crew isolates the train as I stated at the beginning of this thread.
Are the SIRT R44s faring any better?
--Mark
SIRT cars had GOH done by the TA,they first tried to farm them out for GOH but the prototype rebuilds failed tests, the one I remmber is the totaly blew the load test, where they put 110% of the max weight on the car.
They don't have drawbars, A and B cars are coupled on both ends. They even run two car trains A-A normal is A-A-B-A.
Hank might now the current status of the fleet.
AFAIK, everything works. The overhaul was done as Lu has said, after the first car done by the outside contractor failed the load test dramatically; my understanding is that the frame was actually damaged. It actually took them 2 days just to move the car off SI, because the loaded it on the wrong side of the tracks.
Also, on the SIR, there's no such thing as a 'normal' consist. Weekends and late nights, when they feel like it, they run 2-car trains, A-A. Most trains are 4 cars, and can be , , and even 5 car trains are usually , but they are occasionally . I've never seen a 5-car train of all A cars.
-Hank
This begs the question, how could anyone screw up so badly as to cause the carbody to fail a load test. These cars have been through some formidable workouts! The only two possibilities I see are that either the car was damaged to begin with and the repair wasn't strong enough or that in the process of modifying underbody equipment, the contractor cut a critical frame member. The first is forgiveable, the second is nothing short of gross incompetance! A normal overhaul shouldn't weaken a carbody, and a major rebuilding should strengthen it.
>>the second is nothing short of gross incompetance! A normal overhaul shouldn't weaken a carbody,<<
Hence the rebuilds of the SIR R44's were done by the TA. I don't remember how long between the failure of the test and the cancelation of the contract but it was fast (in city terms).
You gotta love those R-44s. It seems there have been instances of uncouplings in Chicago as well. I have a clipping from the Tribune somewhere with a related story from a few years back.
Are the H-2-C couplers truly no longer manufactured? They seemed to be reliable, considering they were used on the R-10s thru the R-42s, and were brought back on the R-62s and R-68s.
$64,000 question: what's the main difference between an H-2-A and an H-2-C coupler?
I do love those R-44s. In school car anything that was "impossible" the R-44 proved them wrong. From undesired door openings enroute to an incident I had at Far Rock where the train charged itself, released the brakes and rolled downgrade to the bumping block. TRULY ATO! No matter what mods they do they will always be the Grummans Underground.
The first train back around 1986 that had the Westcode installed had a collision. It would figure St. Louie went bankrupt. The cabs are smaller then the 46s and the braking cars rubberband as if some were BCOd. A good 400 amp jerk in minimum brake mode is enough for a recall on newer equipment but the norm here. Even with the gold triangle brake mod they still would be better off with the dynamic removed altogether.
Not much. The primary difference is the electric portion.
The H2 head itself is the same. The H2As were used on the
AMUE braking equipment cars such as the AB, D and R1-9.
There the top pipe is Main Reservoir and it is always charged
to 110psi. The bottom pipe is Brake Pipe and varies from
0 to 70 psi. On H2C, the top pipe is Brake Pipe, and is
at 110psi (except in emergency), and the bottom is SAP and varies
0-about 85 psi. At least I think that's right, without looking
at one or a drawing.
Of course the difference in these two setups rises from the difference between the way AMUE and SMEE operate. However I do have one question:
Is the top pipe reservoir pressure (common on type K and L triple valves) or feed valve pressure (common on type U valves). The main reservoir pipe insured that all cars had full reservoir pressure available even with a bad compressor. (Boston was known to operate a four car train with one or two pumps running) The control pipe was a constant pressure used for graduated release systems, and allowed each car to support its own air system.
The typr U valve could work with either system.
Under AMUE as practiced on the IRT,BMT and IND, the only trainline
pipes are brake pipe and reservoir. The reservoir pipe is directly
connected to all the main reservoirs on the train (although some
variants of AMUE include a protection reservoir with a check valve
so there is some air available if the Res pipe ruptures).
Having all of the main reservoirs directly connected introduces
a subtle problem. Nominally, the compressor governor is set
to turn on when pressure drops below 85 psi and shut off at 100.
Of course, every governor is slightly different...these aren't exactly
NIST-traceable calibrations. So, let's say one governor on the
train is set a little high, say 87 psi. As pressure drops, this
governor kicks in, the compressor on that car starts to put out air,
pressure rises, and the other governors never see a pressure low
enough to start them, until finally that one poor overloaded
compressor burns out :)
That's why AMUE has a trainline synchronizer wire. If ANY governor
reads a low pressure, it energizes a battery voltage trainline which
turns on ALL of the compressors in the train.
As for manual cuts, I like them too, from a museum perspective, but
I think you can see where the type H automatic coupler was a big
advance in allowing a cut without a bunch of trips down to the
roadbed.
I don't disagree at all, just noting that the more safeguards that get built in, the more places Mr. Murphy seems to find ways for things to go wrong! :) [Nothing is foolproof beacuse fools are so ingenious.]
In any event the problems seem to arise with Ohio Brass couplers which are so common here in Boston. Now if only the equipment MUed across classes...
I've made this exact move a few yers ago from Av X to Jamaica Yard via the crosstown and the only other thing I recall doing was knocking out the centering devices. This allows the couplers at the C/R position to move freely and help prevent a derailment.
One long buzzer to you for that answer. If you manually retrieve the electric portions before cutting out the CPLR circuit breaker and rotating the cam switch, you set up a single point failure. The first time the T/O takes a brake, the cars will buff and uncouple. When he goes back to power, he'll leave the conductor coasting behind him. blissfully unaware that he is rolling free in the last 4 cars. That is until they stop or catch up to the front section again.
If that happens, would the T/o know he/she lost part of the train? would the tower know? What would be done with the other part of the train if it just stops--do they send a t.o to get the train?
To my knowledge, the senerio only became reality once. It's also a perfect example of why operating rules must be followed. In this particular case an F train had problems at 57 & 6th when they ran there on the midnight hours. The crew sectionalized the train as I stated previously. Unfortunately, the conductor did not go to the rear of the train. He also did not stay in his position. He went to the 4th car where the PA was still operative. The train started down 6th Ave heading for 2nd Ave to be turned north for Jamaica Yard. The first time the train operator slowed the train, the rear 4 cars buffed. When he went back to power, the rear 4 uncoupled. The front section was moving at about 30 MPH when the conductor noticed the rear section was starting to fall behind. The barrier springs were stretching out roughly 100 feet when the conductor realized that he had to do something. Did he alert the train operator? Nope. He pulled the emergency cord. The front section came to a rapid stop and the rear section, as you might imagine, caught up - fast!!!!!! The cars re-added but over 100 shear pins were damaged. Worst of all, the barrier springs which were now completely stretched, had nowhere to go but down. Thy hit the 3rd rail, blew the power and started a small fire. The C/R was not badly hurt by the impact or the smoke. None of the cars were damaged seriously either. Who'd a thunk it????
You mean those springs are strong enough to keep a train together? I don't believe it.
-Hank
I didn't mean to suggest that the springs are that strong because they aren't. What I meant was that while they were unwinding, the conductor saw what was happening and pulled the emergency cord.
I will tell you that with the cars coasting, the springs might just have held considering that there are 6 of them between each pair of cars. When we installed the springs in 1984, we used carriage bolts and epoxy to hold the plates to the fiberglass bonnet. We did a 'pull test' to test the strength of the epoxy and we actually seperated the bonnet from the car body without the epoxy failing. Talk about over-engineering...
Sounds like the expensive component which blows to protect the 25¢ fuse. ;)
Steve...what's a "shear pin" in this context?
The coupler or link bar on the R-46 is held in the draft gear by four (4) shear pins . Shear pins are specially designed bolts that will give way, shear, when stressed to a pre-determined load. On the R-46, I believe that the shear pins will let go at 180,000 ft/lb each. Since there are 4 per end & a car weighs about 91,000 lbs. By counting the # of damaged shear pins, you can pretty accurately determine the speed of a train involved in an incident.
That sounds like something straight out of a Looney Tunes cartoon. All you'd have to do is throw in a pedal guitar sound or two. I didn't realize those springs could stretch that much.
Yeah Right.I'll be on the lookout for radar guns.
That's a good thing. Remember, you need backbone to stand up to peer pressure and pressure from dispatchers and motor instructors and control. Keep in mind, the rule book and bulletins can help you or hang you. We all break the rules from time to time, but we must be able to face the consequences when caught.
In regards to speeding....while some of the speed restrictions seem ludicrous, if enough trains speed around a curve, it could work the rails loose over time. It's rather remote but never the less one train too many could speed around the curve and derail. That's just an example but I want you to see the big picture. Speed restrictions keep trains on the rails which keep passengers in their seats and train operators in their jobs.
You think its a good thing that I'm on the lookout for radar guns? I'm against you guys.I hear stories everyday about T/Os and C/Rs being taken out of service for stupid little things by people who were once in the same position.As a matter of fact,I'm already looking at my fellow T/Os who are taking the TSS test completely differently.They are already the enemy as far as I am concerned.
I know what your saying. I was almost written up for going 6 MPH over the limit coming into Grand Central on the Northbound Local. the posted sign was 10 MPH and I was clocked at 16 MPH. This was at 17:00 Hrs or 5:00 PM. So the next day I went 6MPH Under the limit witch was 4 MPH. The service was pugged behind. Then I obayed every sign posted. I had a steady 10 Mins late at both Terminals. After the first week they put TSS's on my train to observe my operation. They could't say nothing to me. My follwer called Control on me when he got on my tail. So Control got on my case but just gave my skip. The only thing is my train was full on all 3 trips. Grand Central had a TSS check on me because there where 4 Trains behind and my leader was at 110 St as I left 33 st. But again nothing happened to be because I was only going by the book. Also not all TSS are bad. There are some good ones.
Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Dave Foster you did the right thing. If you had read my post, I said something along the lines as there is a reason for rules. Everyone talks about a rulebook slowdown. Guess what, if everyone followed the rules, followed every speed sign, the railroad would slow down. And the powers that be would relax the schedules, so instead of a #2 taking 1 hour 26 minutes, (approximate, I don't have the timetable in front of me) the running time might be 1 hour 36 minutes. And guess what, this would translate into a few more jobs, or, some speed signs being increased.
As for Mike, i'm sorry you see this as an adversarial type of thing. If you do your job, nobody can bother you. Yes, Tss's might ride your train more often but they can't write you up for an infraction that you are not committing.
Just keep in mind that if this were private industry, peple would be on the street after one infraction.
Please mike, just follow the rules.
I thought that buzzers are used to buz people past doors, buzzer used as door bell, buzzer to signal a telephone call, buzz hair cut, buzzing around the office, buzz saw used by magicians to cut a girl in half, Buford Buzzard who is silly bird to make fun of people.
You have to leave a terminal with a working a buzzer. After all, the motorman doesn't really know when to wrap it around the corner or is the master controller? He does have an indication light on the air gauge when the door are closed. Maybe the buzzer should be used to play music.
A Buzzer is used as communication between T/O and C/R. If theres a red Signal the T/O gives a long Buzz. Give 2 short Buzzers when ready. The C/R may give a Long Buzzer to the T/O witch tells me to STOP Immedately. Then when I get 2 short Buzzers proceed. The Conductor must give the T/O 2 Buzzers before leaving the Terminal. The T/O Must give 2 Buzzers back before rolling. INDICATINON is important. You can't move without it unless Control Center tells you its ok to run on the Bypass. Then thats called Buzzer/Bypass with means instead of the Indication light poping on you get 2 Buzzers.
But I really don't like that kind of operation
Buzzers were probably more important years ago when there were no PA systems and radios where the motorman & conductor could communicate with each other or the control center. Remember, only within the last few years did conductors begin to use radios.
Yep, trolleys had long been the life-blood of the borough but are now merely a memory. However, if you look closely enough you may find hidden remnants of their former glory. Here's a list that I had been compiling for a few years on current locations of existing trolley poles (most were made of cast iron) in Brooklyn. If anyone knows of other locations -- in Brooklyn or Queens -- please feel free to add them to the list.
Downtown Brooklyn/Brooklyn Heights: South East corner of intersection of Cadman Plaza West and Tillary Street.
Flatbush/Nostrand Junction: North West side of Nostrand Ave. just in front of #2 & #5 train exit by Republic National Bank.
Flatlands/Old Mill Basin: North West side of intersection of Utica Ave. and Avenue N. Two poles running behind what was property of old used car lot.
Canarsie: three poles at the Rockaway Pkwy L Train Terminus. Located between train and bus stations.
Is the old B41 loop off of Flatbush Avenue still in existence? (somewhere near Kings Plaza) I bet you'd find a couple of trolley poles back there. I seem to remember seeing a few of them out near the Coney Island yard too, along the "B" and "N" tracks north of Stillwell, though they may be gone by now. Also check around 9th Avenue station too.
Wayne
Surf Avenue - east of Stillwell Avenue; they are painted red, white & blue.
17th Avenue & 64 Street - top of one pole might still be visible at Sea Beach overpass near gas station.
(?) Manhattan Beach - at MacKenzie Street B1, B49 bus turnaround.
(?) New Utrecht Avenue & 62 Street - at B23 bus turnaround.
(?) Avenue X & McDonald Avenue - near restaurant.
Staten Island - Hylan Blvd & Richmond Avenue - at S54, S59 turnaround, very rare. Trolleys were eliminated from SI over 60 years ago, might be the only remaining evidence on of south shore trolley service.
Dan...Trolleys never operated on Oriental Blvd in Manhattan Beach nor did they operate on 17th Ave in Brooklyn. The New Utrecht Ave and 62nd St poles were probably for the old Cortelyou Rd. trolleybus line abandoned 10/31/56 (the same day the Brooklyn trolleys bit the dust).
Another location in Brooklyn with existing trolley paraphernalia is along McDonald Ave between Ave. C and Cortelyou Rd, going south hugging the IND Culver line. You can see the brackets where the trolley wire was suspended.
The trolley poles at New Utrecht and 62nd are at what was the terminal of the 16th Avenue trolley. The pole at 17th Ave & 62nd St is a remnant of the Sea Beach line's railroad days. The poles in Manhattan Beach are a remnant of the LIRR's rail service to Manhattan Beach.
The poles used for the surfcace-running electrified railroads appeared to be the same as the trolley poles. My question marks indicated that I am not sure certain poles still exist due to street reconstruction over the years, but it's amazing that even a few of these poles have survived for possibly over 100 years.
Bob Diamond of the Brooklyn Trolley Museum (or whatever the precise name of that organization is) would probably like to have your list of poles. He mentioned (in the course of his Tunnel Tour yesterday) that he is in the process of obtaining, with the City's permission, old poles from around the City and moving them to his Red Hook site for reuse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Carl, the trolley era equipment you see under the Culver Line is more likely a remnant of the original South Brooklyn Railway's electrified ROW.
BTW, there could be some trolley poles remaining in the vicinity of Coney Island since the Norton's Point Trolley line once transversed the area.
I should investigate the Gravesend area by MacDonald Ave. and Ave. X one of these days as I believe the area surrounding the Coney Island yards may hold some trolley-era surprises.
Doug...The area on McDonald Ave. that I am referring to is just N. of the el, where the F (Culver Line) is emerging from the subway at Church Ave.
The southbound McDonald Ave. trolley track basically "hugged" the wall -part of the structure as the subway rises to the el (between Ave. C and Cortelyou Rd., right before the junction with the So. Brooklyn Ry.
Carl M.
Carl, thanks for the info. I've got to get over to Kensington and investigate that location. I will certainly bring my camera with me for posterity.
True, South Brooklyn doesn't show up till a couple of blocks south of that location.
There is also an old carbarn on Staten Island, on Arthur Kill Rd near Armstrong Ave, across from Atrium Cinemas. It's behind a fence that encloses the old Brookfield dump. It's rumored that there may be something 'interesting' in there.
-Hank
>>It's rumored that there may be something 'interesting' in there<<
And it is plastered with HazMat signs from when that area was used for the dump. >g<
I think that it is a storage facilty for Historic Richmondtown, possibly housing vintage automobiles.
I was at Nathan's in Coney Island about 2 weeks ago. There are trolley poles east of Stillwell Avenue, too, running nearly to the Cyclone.
They are used to hang Christmas decorations, and, I think, decorations for the annual Mermaid Parade up Surf Ave each summer.
--Mark
In Baltimore, most poles were removed after streetcar/TC service ended. Exceptions were if the City Department of Traffic Engineering/Department of Transit and Traffic wanted the pole for traffic light use, they were not removed. Thus, ex-trolley poles at intersections all over the city. BTC sold all the bolt-down poles to Baltimore County, where they were used all over the place.
Fast forward to the 1980's. Baltimore City went to 12" lens traffic lights (weight, about 45 pounds). The effect of 45 lb objects bouncing in the wind was to bend the former street railway poles. The city started replacing the poles with new ones with bigger butts (the bottom of the pole). The old poles would be either fully removed, or cut off at the pavement. You would suspect that the next stop would be the junk yard, but you'd be wrong. The city promptly sent the poles to the friendly local streetcar museum (BSM), who renewed and reset the poles. For the ones that were cut off, we simply weld a 6 to 7 foot piece of schedule 80 pipe to the cut-off pole. Voila!! A reusable steel (not usually cast iron in Baltimore) pole. Almost half of our line poles are reclaimed poles from Baltimore's system.
There are still a few poles left in the sidwalks not doing anything (including one just down Harford Road from my house), if we need them (we have about 45 unused poles including 5 or 6 bolt-downs) we'll go get them.
Dan, very interesting info. Thanks for the post.
As you've probably guessed, there are literally hundreds of them all over the place. Just as in Baltimore, many are serving new "owners", so to speak. Most that are no longer supporting trolley wire were taken over by Peco (electric utility). Some had traffic signals and signs on them, but most with signals are being removed.
SEPTA still salvages them and has stored a bunch for future use.
It's interesting that those on portions of Route 10 have a different "cap" atop them than others in the City. This is a throwback to a PTC/PRT predecessor which put the poles in originally nearly 100 years ago. They still stand, with about 10 coats of paint on them.
I was going through some of my old notes and found two items (undated) - one had #4323 being damaged by fire in Pitkin Yard, the other had #4248 being involved in a collision at Dyckman Street. I've seen both of these on the road since I began re-spotting R40s back in 1996. I just want to confirm that these have been repaired and returned to service. Any information (esp. Steve with the major incidents reports or Constantine with the repair logs) would be appreciated.
Wayne
Dave, I did a little research and that is indeed an EP-5 from the old New Haven railroad. Nicknamed the Jets, they were numbered 370-379 on the old NH. The surviving engines were renumbered in the 4970 series and painted PC black sometime around 1970. A lot of kids in the 1950's ran the Lionel version of this loco under their Christmas tree in the old NH red, white and black paint scheme.
Regards, Karl B
The testbed for the EP-5 was a Pennsy BLH-Westinghouse ignitron rectifier B-B-B freight electric, received by the PRR in 1951.
I would like to know if you can post the R62A & R110B front curtain signs with the color of each route on.
Sincerely,
Michael
http://www.nycsubway.org/bullets/current will give you all the numbers of the R-62A (I myself have never seen them, it's just what others have been reporting) The letters arent on there, of course.
I saw the R-110B scroll once, and I don't remember the order, but I did see the orange A (once proposed A to Brighton), and the gray K (14th St skip-stop).
It was just in time, because when it was passing the K the train pulled out of the station, and I didn't see what else was on there.
What is the tag for the Rockaway Shuttle? I saw no blue 'S'.
I don't think that was conceived of when the 110B came out. It was still the "H".
What are plans for the 63rd St/Queens Blvd Connection when completed in 2001.
John
Work your way backward in the list. There are no firm plans, other than the G being cut back to Court Square and a second Queens Blvd local going through to Manhattan. What will go where, no one can say.
The weather forecast is for an accumulating snowfall overnight tonight, possibly changing to rain during Monday morning. I plan (these plans were laid in January) to meet my good friend Simon Billis tomorrow in NYC.
My question is this- does the LIRR have its "contingency plan" in effect regarding possible snow clearance? I sure hope so!
Wayne
Watch out Wayne, the snow is on the way. We have 8 inches on the ground already here in south central Pennsylvania and it shows no sign of stopping. It's supposed to be moving in your direction.
Happy Shoveling, Karl B.
My Dad reports 6" on the ground at his home in Winchester VA, not all that far from you folks and it is still snowing. The only thing I can hope for is that because we are near the sea, it will mix with or change to rain, keeping the accumulations down. I'm scheduled to be on the 6:32AM train...
Wayne
Yes it snowing by me in the Pocono's. Thank god tomorrows my dad off.
Where suppose to get a foot of snow up here. Hopefully the LIRR is ready it. Even thow New York will not see as much snow as Pennsyvania.
(New York will not see as much snow as Pennsyvania.)
that should relief me a bit
Sorry this is not Trains related, but where in the Poconos do you live? I used tolive there and just surprised to meet someone from there on this website.
Jason
Tannersville
My high school band camp was held in Tobyhanna for a few years. This was during my New Jersey days.
I'm sure that Winchester is in the same area as we are on the weather map. I think that Gettysburg is only about 60 miles northeast of Winchester. We have about 10 inches on the ground now and it is still coming down. Thankfully I don't have to go anywhere tomorrow but I sure feel sorry for anyone who does. It's a wet clinging snow so it looks like a winter wonderland out there. I'll bet old Todd G. up in Boston will have to face this tomorrow. I hope you people up in the city don't get the amounts that we have, if you do, Good luck!
Regards, Karl B.
Well, here in Boston we have about six inches of snow so far; my office looks out on lovely Boston Common and it's quite beautiful! Back on topic, my 7:13 a.m. commuter train from Mishawum Station on the Lowell Line was two minutes early getting into North Station. I guess it takes a snow storm...
And that's transit and weather together.
Todd, I thought that you would get a kick out of this. I am a weather-watcher for the TV Station in Lancaster PA. They called me late yesterday afternoon for a audio taping of weather conditions in Gettysburg. I made the mistake of describing our 8 inches at the time as being a "Winter Wonderland". The meteorologist on the 6PM news described me on the air as the "Snow Hound in Gettysburg". Have I been catching some harrassing phonecalls from friends and neighbors. We got a total of about 12 inches but the temperature is already up to 37 and yesterday's Winter Wonderland is today's slush.
Regards, Karl B.
Karl,
Snow is often more of a "media event" than a weather event! News managers (TV and radio) have often been known to ask their meteorologists to play up the high end ... to cause people to get concerned and watch more TV/listen to more radio. It turns out the only a very few storms each decade are of such mammoth proportion that people's lives are significantly affected. A frozen swtich here and a cancelled train there does not parallel armageddon! I recall that the rain we had here in Boston last June 13th (my birthday!), 11+ inches, caused much more of a problem than any named hurricane in many years. And a little bit of icing can cause wrecks on the road more numerous far worse than 5-10 inches of snow.
As Wolfman Jack used to say:
Some like it cold,
Some like it hot.
Here comes the weather,
Whether you like it or not!
(Back on subject) Transit properties can, and should have contingency plans to cover most weather eventualities. But you can't forsee everything, and preparing for "the worst possible" isn't cost-effective. That's why finding the right balance between cost and risk reduction is so important. [Sorry, Larry, if I'm treading on your tracks! Your insight on this welcome, of course!]
June 13th happens to be my parents' wedding anniversary; the next one will be their 53rd.
Remember winter storm Larry back in 1978? It was a doozy; I was still at UConn at the time and remember classes being cancelled for a day or two.
One of our talk radio stations in Denver gives traffic and weather reports every ten minutes during rush hours.
And back in the good old days, if a snowstorm was bearing down on Brooklyn and Queens, the R-16s would be sent to the Canarsie line, and BMT standards would battle the elements on the Broadway, Myrtle Ave., and Jamaica lines. Karl, do you ever recall seeing that happen?
Steve B, By the time the R16's arrived on the scene I had started my career as a banker in the big bank at the corner of Fulton and Crescent. I did not get to ride the el to work or anything. Three years later I left Brooklyn for Pennsylvania. During those last three years my casual observations lead me to believe that the R16's had never taken over completely. There were always Standards around and during snowy weather they just may have been the sole occupants of the Jamaica Line. I have never heard anyone say and have been wondering, how were the R10's in snow?
Regards, Karl B.
The 6:32am LIRR from Babylon to Penn Station arrived on time, left two minutes late, and was SUPPOSED to get to Penn at 7:37, BUT...
It got there at 8:17, 40 minutes late.
BOOOOO! HISSS! PHOOOOEY!
I'll be posting more later on regarding our adventure on Monday.
Simon thoroughly enjoyed himself.
Wayne
Surprise surprise, the LIRR actually came through this morning. We had about 8 or 9 inches of snow in Central Suffolk. By the time I got my car out of the driveway, it was too late for my usual train, the 6:41 from Medford. I went to Patchogue to get the 7:16 express. It arrived at Patchogue only a few minutes late even though it comes out of Montauk. The run to Jamaica via the Central Branch was only a few minutes longer than usual, so the end result is that I got into Penn Station only 9 minutes later than usual. Not bad for such nasty weather.
According to the NBC Local, the LIRR had switch heaters (wish they put them on D/Q @ Prospect Park) changed shoes to the scrapper type and even ran the "AntiIcing" Train.
There was a power failure near Hicksville (Divide Tower) I think, but not sure, they said 15minute delays. 15min not bad.
Apparently some of the LIRR lines had significant delays this morning. When my train from Patchogue arrived on Track 5 Jamaica this morning (only about five minutes late), there was an electric train on Track 4 with its doors open. Although the PA was announcing that the next Penn Station train was on Track 2, I hopped onto the train on Track 4 as Flatbush Avenue and Penn Station work equally well for me. At any rate, as we approached Penn Station, the conductor apologized twice for the delays and said that he hoped no one's day had been significantly disrupted. I got the impression that the train (I don't know where it originated) was far behind schedule.
It was a heavy wet snow. The powdery dry stuff is what usually plays havoc with the railroads.
Hi all,
Since the last "mystery photo" drummed up such a big flurry of posts, I thought I'd upload a bunch of slides from my largely unlabeled collection. I've gotten them broken down into categories: Manhattan Els, Brooklyn Gate Cars, Brooklyn C-Types, Brooklyn Q-types, etc. I've put my own notes about whereabouts into the captions already but many are lacking or just plain wrong. So why don't we all take a look and see what everyone can identify. Again, I don't know the right or wrong answers but it would be nice to identify the pictures.
Anyway, they are at: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/old-els.
I'll compile the reports as posted and update the captions.
-Dave
Wow, what neat photos! I never thought I'd see a picture of the Pitkin El stations, complete with the Chestnut-Crescent curve. What a lovely bunch of grungy old trains to boot. The Q-picture where you question Metropolitan Avenue sure is - see the church steeple in the background, a dead giveaway. Ditto for the one with the wooden platform. G-picture #51 is taken at Sutter Avenue. In fact next time I'm out that way, if the Slants are still on the "L" I'm going to take a picture of one snaking its way round that "S" curve before they demolish it like I hear they're going to do.
Great Stuff!
I hear we're getting a weather reprieve, at least along the coast. Could be we're going to be right on the rain-snow line. It seems to be changing by the hour. Todd Glickman, you will have quite a task calling this one.
Wayne
It appears that the picture captioned as Second Av. belongs in the IRT
group - BRT never had a line on Second Ave, plus the car has a roof headlight, a Manhattan Ry/IRT trademark.
Which picture? Which page? give me the jpg name if at all possible. A lot of them are labeled as being on 2nd Ave.
-Dave
I think I identified picture: bmtc16
I beleive it is looking west from Hinsdale Ave on the old Fulton Street Line South of Atlantic Ave Station. The 3 tracks go to the branch on Van Sindern Ave and the single track turning to the right is the connection to the Snediker Ave. line.
Wayne,
This is just a typical get-on-the-train-go-to-the-office Monday for me! I'm only in NYC one weekend a month - and this isn't one of them - so the "fun" of calling this storm is left to my colleagues at WCBS Newsradio-88. This time, I get to enjoy the storm here in Boston.
manel37.jpg is more likely a Third Ave. el shot, judging by the models of the cars on the street below. Also, if that's the shadow of the Con Ed building on the upper righthand side, that would put the photo looking south around 24th or 29th streets.
My guess for manel30.jpg:
155th St. and 8th Ave., looking north from south of 155th St.
The structure across the top of the picture is the 155th St. viaduct
to the Macombs Dam bridge to the Bronx.
The structure in the background, right side, under the viaduct is the Polo Grounds.
That picture brings up an interesting side issue. One of my earliest memories of traverling on the els in the late 40's as a 4-5 yr old child was passing or stopping under a vehicular roadway bridge.
I know we went to the Polo Grounds many times back then. There were probably two places in Manhattan that the el passed under another bridge other than another el structure. Those locations would have been 155th St on the 9th Ave El and the 3rd Ave line under the Brooklyn Bridge. Where/are there were any instances of an elvated structure passing under a vehicular roadway bridge in Brooklyn or Queens.
Back to the 155th St site. Did the el structure there terminate at the Macombs Dam Bridge after the demolition of the 9th Ave El, and then be cut back further to where the later pictures show the shuttle structure at the end of its existance?
Dave, I have just spent over an hour looking at your old pictures and I was only looking at bmtg. This was quite a nostalgia trip for me and points out all the more that I should have had a camera 50 years ago. Your pictures brought back a lot of memories -- Thank You!
bmtg-06- That's definately Myrtle Ave Line. The train is entering the Grand Ave station. You can see the crossover under the second car where the Lexington Ave Line branched off for its run to Broadway. This station was the strangest station I had ever seen with platforms for only three of the four tracks. Lexington Ave trains bound for Eastern Parkway had no station to stop at here.
bmtg-22- Definately the East New York Yards. I would imagine that is a three car end-of-rush-hour train from 111th St that carried passengers as far as Eastern Parkway, went out of service, and reversed direction down into the yards. Does your original reveal the number of the first car in the consist? My favorite was #902 and I was wondering if there was any chance... I tried to print this picture but still could not make out the car#.
bmtg-23- I know that you identify this car as #1251, but that can't be #1251, even though it looks like it. It has to be #1351. It is a convertible. Could you check the original for the number on the other end of the car? I tried to print this one too but did not get a clearer picture. Stare at the number 1251 long enough and I think you will agree it could be 1351.
I will study the pictures some more as time permits and see if I can identify some others. You have some wonderful pictures, Thanks for sharing them with us.
Regards, Karl B
> You have some wonderful pictures, Thanks for sharing them with us.
> Regards, Karl B
Thanks! I've amassed them over time so the original slides/original photographers are unknown to me. Next time I set the originals up in the carousel I'll take a look for more detail. They're all boxed up right now.
-Dave
Regarding the photos of the old Manhattan and Brooklyn Els;
Picture manel30 is definitely 155th Street on the 9th Ave El looking north. The destination sign reads South Ferry and if you look at the sign on one of the buildings near the lower left corner it reads Harlem Hotel and I beleive you can see the Polo Grounds in the distance.
By the way, this a great web site.
I believe bmtq22.jpg is a southbound Myrtle Ave. El train coming up to the Seneca Ave. station.
Picture: (bmtc08.jpg) . May be Flushing Line.
Location may be correct, but that's a Q, not a C.
Ed
Dave, I think bmtg-05 was taken right after bmtg-06 and the same train is leaving Grand Ave Station on its way to Franklin Ave which can be seen in the distance. I think both pictures were taken from the unusual walkway over the tracks that Grand Ave was noted for. The thing that really shakes me up is the four car train. I was familiar with 2,3,5, and 6 car trains but I never ever saw a 4 car train in service. I guess you learn something every day.
Regards, Karl B.
To David Pirmann I was looking at your picture from the past and I found three picture look formerly to me. #1 BMTG22.JPG is ENY Yard because of hard curlve and switch. #2 MANE111.JPG is 3 Ave El on Canal st because the building have a sign on the top and it the bank that still there right now #3 MANE120 is 23st on 3 ave el because of building on the left and you can see the empire state builing on the background.
bmtq11.jpg:
Just a guess - 161 St. on the 3rd Ave. El in the Bronx??
That sign that looks like it says 6th St. could say 161st St. It's way out of focus. Also, the Q's have the look they had after being transferred to the 3rd Ave. El in 1949 (marker lights closer together), but I don't see to doorsill extensions added when they went to the Myrtle Ave. El around 1957.
Ed Sachs
That right Ed this is 161st 3rd Ave El, as you see the background with white building is a old courthouse and still there now.
manel111.jpg - appears to be the 42nd St/GCT branch junction at 3rd Ave.
The picture is near Marcy Avenue on the Williamsburg Bridge approach. Marcy Avenue Tower in background and Marcy Avenue station is out of view to the left. Note the BRT, BMT open gate cars.
According to the New England Transportation Web site, the M.B.T.A. will start using the type 8 test trains in revenue service tomorrow. However, you can only use the floor-lowering device for wheelchairs at the Riverside station, because only the new 8 inch platforms are there. Also, since snow is in the forecast, who knows if service will start tomorrow or not. I'm assuming they'll be running mostly on the D line,since that is the line that the riverside stop is on. Perhaps other Boston riders can fill in other info.-Nick
I asked an Inspector yesterday (Sunday) and he said the introduction of the Type-8 might be delayed by today's snow storm. In addition, he said that the cars (3802/03) would run on all lines, so that operators (and passengers) can get experience with them.
I was on the lookout this morning on my ride from North Station to Park Street, but no sign of them. I'll be going to a meeting via the Green Line at lunchtime today; I'll report back if I see them.
Thanks for the info, Todd. I'd be out there looking for them too, but I'm in Florida for Spring Break. But I'll get a ride on them soon, I suppose.-Nick
In the NY Daily News Monday March 15, pages 20 and 21, is an article about Railway Historian Bob Diamond who gave a rare tour of the ''lost'' Atlantic Ave Brooklyn tunnel found in 1982. Built in 1844 to relieve congestion in Brooklyn, the tunnel was sealed by the LIRR in 1861, and later forgotten. Bob Diamond is the founder of the Brooklny Historic Railway Museum, rediscovered the tunnel more than 120 years after it was sealed by studying antique maps and old newspaper clippings.
After looking at the pictures and the article that i put in above, verbatim, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The article doesn't seem to be on the online edition. I'll have to buy a copy of the paper to read on the ride home tonight. That tunnel certainly sounds interesting. Hard to imagine it could have been forgotten for so long.
I was on one of the tours yesterday - quite interesting! Bob has a number of ideas about what to do with it - he proposes reopening it as part of a streetcar circulator, among other things. I'm not sure how much of him is real and how much is pure P.T. Barnum - he certainly does have a flair for hype - but the idea at least sounds good. Whether or not the city would ever go along with it is another story.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did he ever dig the tunnel further east (towards the water) hoping to find a station and a steam engine he thought were buried in there?
And even if did get his "circulator" going, how would he get his streetcars in there? I often wonder where the mouth of his tunnel would be ....
--Mark
He has found the station by digging, with city permission, from the top (when the street was undergoing resurfacing a few years ago, if I heard him clearly - someone else started talking near me so I had a hard time with that piece of his talk). It is in the portal area near the waterfront. A brick platform surface and either limestone or marble walls have been located. This has now been filled in again but Bob hopes to properly excavate and restore it someday.
The other end of the tunnel comes out where Atlantic Avenue slopes somewhat downgrade between Court Street and Boerum Place. The manhole cover where we entered the tunnel is at Court and Atlantic, very near that end.
Near both ends of the tunnel there are walls constructed in 1861 and filled from there to the portal (and through the open cut area) with rubble. The three original smoke vents, which at one time protruded about four feet above the surface of the street but which, if I remember him correctly, would now be completely below street level due to grade changes, were broken off and the rubble from them was pushed back into the tunnel. He and his associates have removed most of this debris as part of their archaeological work. There is also evidence in the tunnel of the 1916 entry in search of supposed German saboteurs who were allegedly hiding out there, manufacturing poison gas for an attack on New York. The dirt floor still bears the impression of the ties from one of the two original tracks; the ties and rail from this track were removed in 1861 when the tunnel was sealed. (The other track was removed about 1850 and wagons used that trackway. Their ruts are still visible in spots.)
Our entry into the tunnel was by a short climb down through a manhole at Court and Atlantic. This brought us down onto the rubble area beyond the wall at that end. From there we crawled through - OK, not literally, but there was barely enough room to stand upright - to an opening approximately 4 1/2 feet high and 2 feet wide through the wall into the main body of the tunnel. (Now try and imagine me trying to fit through that opening!) If you have a copy of today's Daily Snooze, the large photo at the top of pp. 20-21 was taken through that hole. We then proceeded down a crude staircase built on a pile of rubble (spoils from Bob's clearing effort at that end - the area we went through from the manhole to the wall was originally almost full of rubble) to the tunnel floor. The open length of the tunnel is approximately 1700'; total length including portal area was about 2500'. It is in excellent condition, thanks to its having been overbuilt orginally and to its having been sealed up for so many years. At the far end a portion of the wall has been removed and a number of pieces of stone laid out down the tunnel; they are part of the original portal walls that were used as rubble when the tunnel was sealed. Bob made no mention of any locomotive being found, but there's still much rubble to be excavated if they can ever get the necessary permission to open the tunnel. I suspect that much further excavation would require disturbing the street, so the mystery of the locomotive will go unsolved for some time.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought you all might be interested.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is there any way to match up the route of the tunnel with that Regional Planning Commission proposal last month to hook the LIRR Atlantic Ave. line up to a proposed Second Ave. line that would hook over to Brooklyn after coming down Water Street to South Ferry?
If I have the RPC plan and the tunnel locations right, it sounds like the subway line would run along the exact same route if it was ever built, which would definitely have an effect on any private plans for the tunnel.
There was an article about Brooklyn in National Geographic in the early 80s which included a few paragraphs about the tunnel. Bob Diamond was quoted as saying this was the first cut-and-cover railroad tunnel ever built, if not the first such tunnel ever built, period. It took seven months to build. How deep below Atlantic Ave. is it; i. e., how far is it from street surface to the roof of the tunnel?
Not incredibly far. As I recall, Bob said we were standing 35 feet below the surface of the street at the midpoint of the tunnel, which is also the deepest point. My guess is the top of the vault was about 18 feet above the trackbed plus you have the thickness of the brick courses, so from the outside of the tunnel shell to the surface should be a maximum of about 15 feet. It's very nearly at the surface where the manhole entry is at Court Street. Bob mentioned that it was so overbuilt it could handle six times the surface load that it now does, even with all the cement trucks that regularly use Atlantic Avenue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, if you've noticed, SEPTA laid out new track betrween 5th and 15th Sts. over the weekend. All trains in this section ran on the eastbound track.
About time, huh?
Jack I was traveling down 95 a while back and it looked like they were doing some type of track work just north of the portal going toward Spring Garden St. Are they replacing the tracks between 2nd and Spring Garden do you know? I notice the cars rock back and forth going through that stretch of track.
I believe something is going on here and it may be trackwork, but I can't swear to it. I've been trying to find out but haven't gotten any information on it. There has been a slow order in both directions on the former speedway between Spring Garden and Girard for several weeks.
It was nice of SEPTA to renew the rails between 5th and 15th, but it would have also been nice to have some publicity. I understand trains were on extended headways and there was much confusion about which platform to use (at 5th, there is no crossover between EB and WB sides, and many patrons apparently went to track level only to learn they had to go back to street level, cross Market Street, and return to the other platform). Nothing new here - SEPTA has removed bus service from Chestnut Street due to the start of the end of the Transitway. Buses came off on 3/14 but seat drops were only put on buses over the weekend. Since Route 9 is off Chestnut (and on Market) for its entire EB Center City routing, Chestnut bus service is down by nearly 1/3 west of Broad St. No surprises.
Not too long ago I got into a debate with Larry about the merits of a freight tunnel under the Hudson. He made some thoughtful remarks about why it realy wouldn't have much effect on the truck traffic to/from LI.
Sunday's Newsday has an editorial by John F. McHugh that takes the other view. It talks about an orig plan/law in 1922 that empowered the Port Authority to do this. It also talks about why it's not in the Port Authority's interest to dig a tunnel (would reduce the toll revenue they get on the bridges).
I certianly hope that a tunnel isn't being prevented because of this.
P.S. Can anyone tell me who's #85 is in the photo ? It looks like a RS model.
Mr t__:^)
As many of you know I collect MetroCards, plus dip/swipe cards form out-of-town. One of my SubTalk friends posted that the Museum was giving away a poster showing 77 MC & 5 MC Holders with graphics since 1994 (you had to buy $35 of stuff to get it). I just had to have one so I called Brooklyn, ordered Peter Dougherty's subway track book. A few days later the book came, but no poster. Additionally page 26 was blank :-(
When I called they said I would have to wait for Greg to come in Fri. I thought here comes the NYC run around :-( I called Fri., in the course of the discussion I asked if the Times Sq. store had both items (I had to take my son to Penn Sat AM for a Amtrak to FLA). Greg said no, BUT he would be happy to bring the items to them. Well Sat just after 8 AM I walked to the counter and in the back what did I see ...
Well it surfices to say that I'm a happy camper !
P.S. Connie if you are reading this please convay to Greg my sincere appreciation for his kindness !
Mr t__:^)
I still have Metrocards from 1998 US Open to trade.
Dear Sir/Madam:
When the Williamsburg Bridge closes on May 1st, 1999 until mid
October, what will service be like? Will there be BMT Nassau Street
service to/from the BMT Southern division via The Montague Street
Tunnel during the rush hours?
James Li
Here we go again: From Jamaica: Z rush hours to Eastern Pkwy skip stop both directions, J to Bway/Myrtle 24/7 with rush hour skip stop from Eastern Pkwy. to Jamaica Center. J/Z will have 6 car trains. M to Marcy Ave. 24/7 with 4 car trains. On the other side: 4 car shuttle trains 6 AM to 10 PM 7 days/week from Essex to Broad (Chambers on the weekends). 8 car M trains rush hours only Bay Pkwy. to Chambers St.
Somewhat off topic, but why is the Bowery station open on weekends when the Williamsburg Bridge is closed? Unlike the other three weekend Nassau stations, there's no place to transfer to.
The Bowery is a very low use station. It is around the corner from Grand Street (B/D/Q)
Dear Sir/Madam:
When the Manhattan Bridge's south side tracks reopen in 2003,
what will service be like? Will the north side tracks close for the
reconstruction project similar to the one in 1986-1988? Will there be
a new V Train down 6th Avenue and a new W train down Braodway, both
operating through the new 63rd Street Tunnel connection? Will the
BMT N and Q trains return to Broadway Express service? Will there be
a Brighton Local train via Montague Street Tunnel and Broadway Local
similar to the QT train from 1961-1967?
James Li
There is that Sir/Madam person, gawd makes ya feel old...
Reminds me of an OLD comedy bit: Salesman: Good Evening Sir or Madam, whichever the case may be, I represent the blah-blah Manufaturing Company......
The bit is so old you need a Tube Radio (remember them?) to hear it.
Looks like you've been reading some of the prior posts. Keep reading, the thread about the Manhattan Bridge is still going. Just go through the previous messages.
-Hank
The F train was crowded and slow, but things go worse from there. There was an "incident" which forced the A onto the F line, after it sat in the station for 10 minutes. The change at Delancy for the BMT back downtown was a mess: I couldn't get on the first train (M) and it was a long wait for the second train (Z).
If too many more things go wrong at once in Brooklyn, the TA could be overwhelmed. But that might be a good thing. As we know, anecdotes beat facts every time. A real service collapse on the subway might help the MTA compete for funding with the health care industry, which has a made-up-crisis (they're not getting richers relative to the rest of us as fast as in the 1980s). I still see too many articles about how the health care industry needs more public dollars.
Bergen Street on the F is my stop but I usually walk to the Court Street R and use the F when the wheather is bad. Well...
Add to this the fact that the Q was rerouted onto the R Line this morining and there was a lot of confusion and delays.
Add to this the Dept. of Sanitation's total failure to clear the drains all along Court Street and walking to the R was a mess. One would think that with Borough hall right there that some Sanitation Heads would Roll over this one.
And once again they have failed to correct the escalators at Court Street. They have been running the wrong way for months!!!
One would think that if there is a disaster city would pitch in to smooth over some of the minor problems in the troubled area.
I Give the city an F as far as handling the Bergen Street Mess.
(Bergen St Mess) Bergen was supposed to be closed, but we stopped there and people got on, so I guess it was open.
Incredibly, my wife took the F an hour after I did and had an easy ride. I guess it will be "Metropolitan Roulette" for a while.
The switch south of Prospect Park was frozen and D's ran express from the Highway. Some of the Q's were rerouted but not all. The track gang was pickup around 7:50am though, I assume normal service after that.
Funny seeing the local track after the switch all covered with snow, no Shuttle putins today >G<..
Dear Sir/Madam:
Last week's Bergen Street Fire caused the IND F trains to run
express from Jay Street to Church Avenue. Why do the express tracks
the F train were running on diverge from the local tracks' right of
way between 7th Avenue and Fort Hamilton Parkway? Will they ever
reroute the IND F trains express to Church Avenue and extend the
IND G trains to Church Avenue when the IND G trains get cut back
to Court Square for good when the 63rd Street Tunnel connection opens
in August 2001? Why were all the signals out on the north-bound
express track from Carroll Street to Jay Street?
James Li
> Dear Sir/Madam:
Which sir or madam is that? This isn't an official MTA/NYCT web site you know... Read the prior posts and you will see a lot of information about the Bergen Fire (and other topics like the W'burg Bridge Closure)
-Dave
James ... no need to be so formal :)
> Last week's Bergen Street Fire caused the IND F trains to run
> express from Jay Street to Church Avenue. Why do the express tracks
> the F train were running on diverge from the local tracks' right of
> way between 7th Avenue and Fort Hamilton Parkway?
The IND line was build this way. The express tracks diverge because they take a more dirdct route to 7th Ave than the local tracks do. This was done to speed express service. At the time the line was built, there was enough funding to have the lines separate. The same thing was done on the IND Queens Blvd line between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave in Queens (and in fact, "The Map" even shows this).
> Will they ever reroute the IND F trains express to Church Avenue and
> extend the IND G trains to Church Avenue when the IND G trains get
> cut back to Court Square for good when the 63rd Street Tunnel
> connection opens in August 2001?
Not if the people of Carroll Gardens have their way.
> Why were all the signals out on the north-bound express track from
> Carroll Street to Jay Street?
I suspect the fire knocked them out.
--Mark
Dear Sir/Madam:
In the past, I rode many trains of R-68s and R-68As, and found
out that there were other letters in the roll signs. Will they ever
use the V and W signs when the 63rd Street Tunnel Connection opens
in 2001? What color are the extra letter signs in the R-68s, R-68As,
R-110Bs, and future R-143s? Will there be any new letters used like
I, O, P, T, U, X and Y in future subway cars' roll signs?
James Li
I noticed that for 2 Years the No.1/9 trains don't wait at South Ferry. Instead they all hold at Chambers St Northbound and usaually wait for 3 Express to pass. Then when the train moves out another train comes in and waits. Why is that. Dave Foster You work the No. 1 why do we wait at chambers ?
Well the South Terminal is South Ferry and we do stop at Chambers to wait for are time to go back to the Bronx. There is No more Dispatchor at South Ferry the person in the Office is a Conductor. The Dispachor at Chambers tells you you intervel out South Ferry. So basicly instead of waiting at South Ferry for your Secheduled time you move up to Chambers. Someone told me the reason for this is people where complaining that they miss the Boat because of being stuck outside the Station. But now they complain they miss the train.
Anyway your better getting off at Chambers get the Express and you probably connect with the train ahead of the train you where on at 14 St.
The reason the #1 waits at Chambers northbound is that it is easier for the dispatcher to hold it to time at Chambers. His train indication board in the office does not show South Ferry, so by tracking the operating motor on the train southbound, he knows which train it is supposed to be coming northbound from the ferry. The dispatcher (actually ATD) has an easier time of regulating the service.
They got rid of the dispatcher a while ago and kept a conductor their to make the stand clear announcement. It makes sense to have a Dispatcher at Chambers Street because they can see all the service(local and express), but they should have an ATD at South Ferry to give the train the starting lights etc. The conductor should work the platform as it is scheduled.
That 'Stand Clear' announcement, as well as the moving platforms, are all automated. The conductor in the booth is there for back up.
-Hank
He is also there to disengage the gap fillers in the event that a train is sent around the loop without making the stop at the ferry- like the 2 has been doing in the middle of the night.
Better to miss a train that runs every 5-15 minutes, depending on T-O-D, then to miss a ferry that runs every 1/2 hour to hour by 30 seconds. (Like I have twice this weekend)
-Hank
HOUR you mean HOUR when the boat is on Hour Headways in the early morning or late at night when I need it.
I would always wonder if I got off at Chambers and RAN to South Ferry if I could make the boat. I can't count the times we "just" missed the boat waiting to get into South Ferry (watching the 5 turns on the inner loop). This was also when you coulnd't board at the lower level, run up the stairs and you miss it even though they are still loading cars on the lower level. UGH, well at least you can board on the lower level now.
I never understood why they stopped loading pedestrians a good 5 minutes before they finished loading cars. It's been a long time since I waited for a boat at either terminal, since I seem to be just making the boat in the AM reverse.
-Hank
You are number one if you ride on the No. 1 train. It waits there for Bernie Getz to arrive.
Thank you for responding Dave. But I'll stay on the train at Chambers and keep my seat to my stop at 110 Street.
Over the past 5 months I have heard about these 8 new lines more and more where did lines come from I have never heard of these lines. What will lines be along. Like the V going along sixth Avenue. Plus when will these line debut?
Christopher Rivera
These lines are just previously proposed lines, and precautions-- in case they ever need a new line they don't have to make new rollsigns.
Over the past 5 months I have heard about these 8 new lines more and more. Where did lines come from I have never heard of these lines. What will lines be along. Like the V going along sixth Avenue. Plus when will these line debut?
Christopher Rivera
Over the past 5 months I have heard about these 8 new lines more and more. Where did lines come from? I have never heard of these lines. What will lines be along. Like the V going along sixth Avenue. Plus when will these line debut?
Christopher Rivera
You are repeating yourself three times. I know that the number 8 train used to run as the 3 avenue el. My advise read the earlier talks about the #8 train (Rename as the Franklin Shuttle) or other past talks to answer your question.
B.H.T.
I don't know if these have been answered. So if they have, please tell me.
I know that they are doing something in lower Manhattan on weekends. What? I took a train up from the Lost Tunnel tour yesterday. The 4 train was held at Bowling Green, then proceeded on the downtown tracks to Brooklyn Bridge, where it terminated, giving a good view of what I believe are the abandoned platforms. And then I switched across the platform to a #5 train, which went around the loop and proceeded locally.
You rode around the City Hall Loop yesterday? They have been saying for some months that passengers cannot ride around the loop due to the mayor's fears of terrorism. I am very surprised to hear about this - were any other passengers in the car with you?
The entire uptown 5 train to be precise.
I rode around the City Hall loop Saturday night on the 4 when it was running in two sections meeting at Brooklyn Bridge. The 4 from Brooklyn terminated at the uptown express platform. The 4 from uptown went straight through the City Hall loop and let passengers off at the uptown local platform.
This is very Suprising. One day they tell us No one rides and kick all off before entering the Loop. The next day they run a Genaral Order and say all can ride. Know I'm even confuse about this situation.
Since 6 trains are prone to being held in the loop, you can't ride them around, because you might have enough time to leave the train. In th ecase of a GO, the train will not be held in the loop, you can't get off and so no problem.
Wow! The power of NYC Transit. I can see it now at a City Hall meeting ....
MTA: "Terrorist threat? Fuddlebug! We have trains to run and a general order to implement. The trains must run and construction must proceed without too much inconvenience."
City Hall: "Well, uh, OK. But we are placing armed police at the ends of the station as a precautionary measure .... "
Ride around the Loop on the 5 train this weekend because of a GO. I love it!
I wonder if the policeman's token booth is still on the City Hall platform ..... did you guys see it?
--Mark
I wonder if the policeman's token booth is still on the City Hall platform ..... did you guys see it?
I did see a lit booth sitting on the platform. Is that what that was? What's it for?
That's where the Cop sits and watches the train's go by. In case the Conductors don't do their job and clear the trains and someone sneaks on board. In case they jump off on the City Hall Platform, the Police Officer, carfuly minding the boring procession of passing trains will stop the would be mad bomber from blowing up Sir Rudy et al.
I mean when we were allowed to ride around the Loop, there was a cop in that booth.
Maybe since they just issued a new GO to once agian but City Hall Station tracks into revenue service, they took the cop out. Makes perfect Rudy Sense.
The booth is still there. No one has been in it the two times in the past two months that I've gone around.
But no one has told me why they are doing it.
Maybe Rudy has hired a few behemoth bodyguards for around-the-clock peace of mind. Hopefully, passengers, er, customers will be allowed around the loop the next time I'm in the city.
Of course, what may have actually happened is that world-wide terrorists were polled and all said Rudy isn't worth the effort.
"paranoia strikes deep; into the heart it will creep."
(minor amendment)
Still relevant today as it was 32 years ago...
"Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the man comes and takes you away"
by Stephen Stills, (C) 1966 4-Star/Cotillion/Gold Hill Music BMI
In nearby New Rochelle there are some trolley poles on Main Street (Rt. 1) in the downtown area. They are south of the Main Street/Hugenot Street divide. I believe New Rochelle was part of the 3rd Ave railway system.
Staten Island Railway
Implementation of 3 PM Express Trains at 450PM ,616PM,631 PM
St George Ferry
Great Kills
Eliingville
Annadale
Huguenot
Prince's Ba
Pleasnt Plains
Richmond Valley
Nassau
Atlantic
Tottenville
I have noticed on some elevater lines. Namelly the J-line headed along Fulton st, had a middle track at one time. My question is why have a middle express track up to broadway junction, and then eliminate it. Because there was a track there at one time I can see the rivet holes from the old beams. I also noticed the livonia line (IRT) had an express track at one time. Or maybe neither line had one, or was schedueld to have an express track. Can someone Please help me on this one. Thank you.
Some lines, including the ones you mentioned had provisions for a trhird track in the structure but never actually had a track installed. The stretch of the Jamaica line along Fulton St. was designed for only two tracks and never was upgraded.
Also the Fulton St Jamaica line is too old to support an additional track.
If so many people were not happy with the old El's, why did the IRT/BMT build elevated ROW's? Example, 4 train Jerome Ave. Or Roosevelt Ave a.k.a 7 train?
Those areas were sparcely populated when the lines were built back in the period from 1908-1928, so there were few people to complain.
... and it's cheaper.
--Mark
Saturday I rode the F trying to see if I get a closer look at the lower level of Bergen. Failed attempt. I took the R to 9ST. I thought that the F was still express, So I went on the Coney Island platform. There was a Manhattan bound F pulling in. I couldnt get run over in time, ( I wished I did). A Coney Island bound F came and I took it down to Church. At 7th and Church there were 2 2 car sets of R40's in the station. Anybody know why there were there? Anyway, I wish I had taken that Manhattan bound F, because between Smith-9 and Bergen it took us about 40 minutes. Good Luck F train riders!!! What were the R40's doing at 7th and Church? Will there be a new service along the Culver line?
[At 7th and Church there were 2 2 car sets of R40's in the station. Anybody know why there were there?]
They were probably R-42s, and they were probably 4-car sets. NYCT is testing Communications-Based Train Control (CBTC), which will be installed on the Canarsie Line (the R-143s were ordered to provide L train service and they will be equipped to work with CBTC). The equipment is being tested on the F express tracks between Church and Seventh Avenues because they're out of the way.
CBTC allows trains to operate faster, and closer together, because every train knows where it is and what's in front of it. The current fixed-block signal system assumes that the lead train is at the back of a signal block and that the following train is at the front of the previous signal block. For safety, there must be a minimum of 2 blocks between trains (a block on the BMT-IND is usually at least 250-300 feet). Under CBTC, trains can operate as closely as 25 feet apart.
David
"For safety, there must be a minimum of 2 blocks between trains (a block on the BMT-IND is usually at least 250-300 feet). Under CBTC, trains can operate as closely as 25 feet apart."
I think that you might be taking something out of context. Under CBTC, the position of any train can determined within 10 feet on straight track and within 25 feet on curves. This does not mean that trains will be able to operate 25 feet apart. While the distance between trains can be reduced and speed increased, I don't believe that given the 3.2 MPH/Sec. decelleration rate of the standard NYCT car, this will be practical or possible.
Steve,
The following is from the Canarsie Line Signal Modernization contract (S-32701), dated November 3, 1997. Admittedly, some of it might be out of date, but it's what I worked from when I said that trains could operate as closely as 25 feet apart.
"7. A CBTC train in ATO mode shall be capable of closing to within 10 feet of a home signal or a bump post location.
8. A CBTC train in ATO mode shall be capable of closing to within 25 feet of other obstructions which include: an equipped train ahead; a track circuit occupied by an unequipped train, a broken rail, or a failed track circuit; a CBTC traffic reversal point; a track section blocked from the ATS system.
9. A CBTC train in ATPM mode shall be able to close up to within 10 feet of a home signal or bump post, and 25 feet of other obstructions, and then close up to the limit of the movement authority at less than 5 mph."
Also, according to these contract documents, the full service braking rate of the R-143 class (and retrofitted R-42s, which I don't think will be happening now that the R-143 order has been increased from 100 cars to 212) is supposed to be 3 mph per second. Has this changed?
I suppose we are talking about points of interpretation. Closing to within 25 feet or 10 feet of an object or another train is not the same as operating behing another train (at speed). I believe that I have the same set of documents and it's strange how it can be interpretted so differently.
Steve,
You're right. I should not have implied that trains would be running 25 feet apart in regular service, although the CBTC system will be designed to let them close to within 25 feet of each other.
We actually interpreted the contract the same way; I was just lousy at stating the case.
I meant R42. Pardon me for my mistake here.
I saw the two sets of R42's as well, they were the CBTC that is Steve pointed out.
It took over a half hour for us to go from 4th Ave to Jay. Held at each station and at a signal ourside Carroll.
This AM (Tue) F's were stopping a Bergan in both directions.
So why has the PATH system never been incorporated into
the rest of the subway system? Seems to me that it would
make perfect sense to be included as a regular subway
line (the P perhaps?) on The Map.
But I suppose there's politics involved.
It goes to NJ ... the entire TA system is within NYC.
That doesn't make it right, just that it's the way it is.
Another idea would be to transfer it from PATH to MTA, that would be a first step to make it more friendly, e.g. LI Bus, MetroNorth, LIRR.
Mr t__:^)
How about "MTA New York and New Jersey" ;-)
'MTA Hudson Tubes'
I like the historical name :)
-Hank
Well yeah, but the MTA already operates Metro-North,
and that isn't entirely within New York.
Seems to me I should be able to get a free transfer
to Hoboken....
Perhaps PATH is more incorporated with the NYCT than you realize. While we share no common trackage we do share other vital operations. For more than 5 years now, NYCT, LIRR, MNRR, PATH and others have been buying parts and material as a common entity. In addition, many of these same properties will be linked soon by a single computer system.
When you think about it, shared trackage would present large headaches for the NYCT. If NYCT tracks were linked with PATH you'd have to deal with the following:
1. FRA regulation
2. Invalid labor contracts for train operators and conductors
3. Train Operators would no longer be qualified to operate trains
4. A signal system that does meet federal standards
yada-yada-yada
Very interesting, i.e. that PATH is "me too" on stuff that the MTA (TA, SIRT, LI Bus, LIRR, MetroNorth) is buying. I thought the PATH folks were like the French, i.e. they wanted to do it their own way.
FYI, NYC-DOT does it also ... can you say Cubic, RTS, Orion. For DOT many times they me too on the SAME order.
Mr t__:^)
Well PATH's entire system is FRA Compliant, Grap Irons and such.
On the SIRT the cars windows are FRA Type II, I don't ever see those sitckers on the R44's in the subway.
I've also heard that PATH is the true 6th Ave subway.. :-p
If you want to get technical the Hudson & Manhattan Tubes was the "first" 6th Avenue subway.
All NYCT cars have FRA Type II glass.
So when the 63rd Street tunnel connection is finally
made to Queens Plaza (sometime in the year 2017 perhaps)
what then? Where will the B and Q go? Will they end
at Queens Plaza? Go out to Jamaica? Local or express?
Or is there a new line planned (Northern Boulevard?)
The 63st connection will NOT go to Queens Plaza, it wll connect just west of the 36st station. Trains using 63st will bypass Queens Plaza completely.
-Hank
With the 63rd Street Line only stopping at the busy hub that is 21st/Queensbridge, imagine how much worse the congestion is going to get at Roosevelt Avenue. In fact I forsee many local bpratrons who used to take Southbound R and G service to Queens Plaza and change to the Expresses at Queens Plaza will now take Northbound trains and change at Roosevelt. It should be fun, the 7 crowd, the feeder bus bunch, the folks from Woodhaven Blvd. (including the Lefrak City park and riders) where there should be an express stop, should be fun especually witht he narrow south end of the Mahhattan-bound platform.
Since I am a reverse commuter in a sense (I need to go from Kings Hwy D/Q to Queens Plaza or Queensboro Plaza but prefer the 1st) I also wonder if it might be faster to walk from 36th street if the Q runs express Brooklyn/Manhattan and then 63rd tunnel. I sometimes walked to 21st for the Q, but it had to be nice weather, for a one seat ride home.
Actually, more people change from the E, F to the G, R in Queens Plaza in the morning than people on the G, R to the E, F. And, not all trains will go through the 63 St tunnel, some will continue to Queens Plaza, so what are you still concerning about?
That is why there will be local trains (in Queens) running into the 63rd St. tunnel, so people will not need to backtrack. Also, once 21st St. station is no longer a dead end, I expect it will get a lot busier.
My mistake.
So what's the latest word on when I can expect those
B's and Q's to be rolling into Forest Hills?
Does anybody have any info on the track assignments at the Atlantic Avenue - BWAY Junction complex in ENY? Specifically, I was wondering what the track assignments may have been for Fulton, 14th St and Canarsie trains at the station during the complex's heyday. I know what the track arrangements were but were not sure what tracks were used for what routes, especially the center platform tracks.
The center tracks were the Fulton St line.
I was just talking to an L train motorman on my way to work this morning about the El structure. He said that NYCT is currently in the process of preliminary work on removing the unused (old Fulton St. line) parts of the junction steelwork.
One of the things that has occured in the past few months there is the detour of the southbound L just past B'way Junction onto the express tracks at the Atlantic Ave. station. There appears to be some track work in progress (third rail removed and obstructions at the crossovers). After Atlantic the train is routed back on the normal southbound track. Apparently this is related to the forthcoming demolition.
I had heard that there was some thought of demolishing much of the complex and consolidating the Canarsie line to 2 tracks and a connection to ENY yard. Are they planning on using the Snediker Ave branch or the Van Sindern branch as the structure. Its funny that the Snediker branch was once the original routing of the combined Fulton/Canarsie prior to the rebuilding of the Junction around 1917 and now they will go to one branch again. There will certainly be a great deal of Transit history lost when they rebuild the junction. With any luck I will get to NY to take a look at the complex before they demolish it.
I understand they wish to retain the Van Sinderen side of the A.A. station and demolish the remainder. The flyover/connection to the Broadway line will remain. So far as I have heard, nothing is firm yet, merely under discussion.
Wayne
The ERA Bulletin had a diagram of the proposed layout. it is just two tracks and one island platform. They should have at least left the two platforms, and 2 middle tracks, so you could still turn trains there.
and moved the northbound track to where the 3rd middle track is.
Yes, I realize the center tracks were for the Fulton St Line. However, I am some what unsure of how each track was assigned. There are 6 tracks at the Atlantic Ave station. If we call the western most track as track 1 and track 6 as the eastern most track I think I know at least 4 of the assignments:
Track 1: Canarsie Southbound
Track 2: Fulton Local to Queens
Track 3: ?
Track 4: ?
Track 5: Canarsie Northbound
Track 6: Fulton to Sands St, Fulton Ferry, or Park Row.
Track 3 ultimately end east of Hinsdale Ave and tracks 4 and 6 join west of Hindsdale. Eventually there are 2 tracks on the eastern portion of the Fulton line on Pitkin. The 4 tracks that turn west from the North side of Atlantic Ave become 3 before Rockaway Ave. Also, some trains from the Fulton line conected to the Bway line at BWAY junction and some may have connected to the 14th St line. There also, presumably was express service on the Fulton line west of Atlantic. Any comments on how tracks 3 and 4 were used at Atlantic.
Thats Hinsdale Street!!!!! And that whole complex looks confusing. Right now the Canarsie bound L runs on the "express" track or as you say it, track 2. When I return to the city, I will take the 2 stop ride up there and analyze it some more.
From West to east, (1)P1, (2)K1,(3) K3, (4) K4,(5) P2, (6) removed track on eastern end.
P1, K1 and P2 you got right. K2 was the express, K4 was the Manhattan bound local, and the easternmost track joined up with J2A, which is the northbound connector between Canarsie and the Broadawy line (Eastern Pkway J/Z station)-- the track used by the old K or 14 Bway/Bklyn local.
Does anyone know why they installed a center platform at the end of Marcy Av station? Is it temporary or permanent and what will it be used for. The platform is built over existing center track and the track itself it blocked off about 200' before the platform. If you look under the platform you can see signals that used to be there laying down and disconnected. Are there any new plans for lay-ups that they used to have at Marcy Av's center track?
Thanks
Operating instructions have not come out yet, and much more work needs to be done. I have not seen the finished plans. That temporary platform will be used when the M terminates at Marcy Ave. once the Willy B closes. The trailer will be the dispatchers office. With this island platform crowd control & flow will be more manageable and transfer across the platform to the next leaving train will be possible. Once the last train to Manhattan leaves Marcy Ave., a ramp will be put over the Manhattan bound track (J2) to the Manhattan bound platform at the iron maiden exit gate. Go down those stairs, and you will be across the street from the bus terminal where passengers can change to the B39 WillyB bus.
Bill--
If what you say is correct, then the M will cross over to the Queens-bound track to reverse and return to Metropolitan Avenue.
I thought they were planning to run the M's on the regular tracks, go a short bit beyond Marcy, and turn trains back, using the area beyond Marcy (approaching the bridge) for layups.
Keep us apprised if you hear any more details.
Michael
There is no crossover beyond Marcy Ave. All M layups will be at Fresh Pond Yard; all J/Z layups except 2 will be a ENYD. Those 2 are on the tail tracks just beyond Parsons/Archer station. All switches are between Marcy Ave. & Hewes St. Trains will make the same move to relay (change direction) as they would do when single track operation is in effect on the WillyB. If a Manhattan bound train should relay on the Queens bound track: immediately leaving Hewes it will cross to the center track and before the temporary dispatcher office/trailer will cross to the Queens bound track, relay, go back to Queens. To relay on the Manhattan bound track: upon changing ends at Marcy, cross to the middle track past the trailer, then cross to the Queens bound local track right before Hewes.
I am shortly to come into possession of several old (1940's and 1950's) maps, and a 1964 World's Fair subway map. What would be the implications of scanning these items and posting them on the site? I don't believe there would be a copyright issue due to the age of the items involved, they are public documents that (were)available free to all takers, and it is the best method of preserving them for veiw without unfolding them repeatedly.
-Hank
Do any of your maps include BMT number code listings? I have been told that they were included on maps at one time or another, but I've never seen such a map.
The 1964 World's Fair map has been scanned on Joe Korman's website, I believe.
BMT maps from the 1930s (including the World's Fair map) had the full set of numbers by route, with letters added for different services. I don't have one handy right now, but as I recall 1a. was Brighton Local service via the Tunnel, 1b. was Brighton Express, and so on. Only the three rush-hour-only specials didn't have numbers in their descriptions. The BMT also tried for at least the decade of the 1930s, including on those maps, to get people to use 'L' (as in Chicago) for 'El,' but it doesn't seem ever to have caught on. Maybe if the IRT had agreed to do it it might become New York usage.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Does anybody know of GRS vital relay failures causing relays to stay in the picked or energized position falsely? Let me know.
Many of the GRS "B" style vital relays were made with an indicating
pointer. The TA removed them because they felt that the pointer may
have been jamming against the plastic outer cover and causing the
relay to stick up.
This isn't the problem. No indicators on WMATA.
Hi..no we have not had that problem, however I DID copy the Washington Post account and faxed it off to our Train Control Engineering Department with some questions attached...it stirred up a large torrent of questions and telephone calls to me (I do work on the Vital components of both the Train Control system and the vehicle ATC sysyem) about those relays and the Westinghouse PD-1 and PT250 types of relays. In the end a few calls to Rochester (GRS) and WMATA developed the following info: At some time WMATA needed to have the relays serviced/rebuilt; they sent them to GRS. Apparently over time the price for this rose enough so that WMATA put it out for bid; and it was low bid won. Somehow a check was missed and someone somewhere during the rebuild removed non-magnetic attaching hardware and replaced it with standard hardware (read magnetizable). Over time the fields from the coil resulted in the hardware being magnetized and the relays drop-time becoming slower; eventually resulting in a slow drop time relay, which did not allow the speed command to be gated through right away when the relay dropped (coil deenergized). Hence a higher speed command could "hang" for a period until the amount of residual magnetism was reduced enough for the relay to complete it's "drop". Apparently not all the relays were incorrectly re-hardwared; which is why WMATA will have go thru them all; and correct the defective ones. Apparently GRS did have a maintenance bulletin out permitting the hardware change from brass; but onl to very high grade stainless steel which is NOT magnetic. This is the information we have managed to get; all the relays were pre 1986.
It's stuff like this that gets the juices flowing and brings out the ABSOLUTE necessity to check, recheck and check again..and to follow all procedures to the letter..so I tell my folks. Oh yes and Q.A. is VERY IMPORTANT!
Was this response written by The Great Frank T. Oklesson now in LA? If so, I replaced you at PB/T in April of 1987.
Try to E-Mail me.
I have seen train crew badges (these were the tin badges used in the 1950s-early 1960s) that say:
New York City Transit System
Motorman (punched out letters)
Badge Number (punched out numbers)
IRT Division as well as BMT Division
Was there one for the IND Division?
I have an identical badge that says "Conductor" but no division.
Can anyone clarify this for me.
This may not answer your posted question, but when I was on vacation in NYC last year, the Transit Museum in Brooklyn had a big bucket full of badges for sale with different employee numbers... also a few more well kept badges at higher prices appeared in locked display cabinets.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
.
In today's Daily News a column by State Sen. Goodman (R-Manhattan) states an argument in favor of completing the Second Ave. line. At least he noticed---but is there anyone against building it? The need is rather obvious. Too bad the machinery to set it in motion is so slow.
The City Must Have a 2nd Ave. Subway
Is there anyone against building the 2nd Ave subway? Well, I could imagine the small business owners along 2nd Ave would be mighty upset if the "2nd Ave Washboard" were to come up again, block access to their businesses, etc, like what happened in the '70s. Tunnelling under everything would not inflict "pain" and "loss" on them, but it would make the project much more expensive than "cut and cover" ....
--Mark
(Who is against the 2nd Avenue Line?) Anyone with an alternative use for the money. Have your heard the hospitals braying for more Medicaid cash lately, even though we spend 2 1/2 times anyone else on Medicaid? How about the schools, where we traditionally spend less? What about tax breaks? What about the construction companies and unions, who want to charge so much money for 63rd to 125th that it should be enough to build the whole line. What about Long Islanders, who want to soak up any and all transport money for the LIRR to GCT connection? How about the MTA, which wants to use my tax dollars to build a new tunnel for New Jersey commuters, while allowing the Manattan Bridge to stagger on toward death?
ITS ABOUT MONEY. NO SENSIBLE PERSON COULD SAY ITS A BAD IDEA.
Larry, I have to agree with you about the hospitals, and as far as another tunnel from New Jersey is concerned, raise fares slightly on NJT and raise tolls SIGNIFICANTLY on the lower Hudson River crossings, from the Tappan Zee on down - double them at least - to pay for it. But the schools are another issue - I won't get into the politics of New York education since I don't know the details, but suffice it to say that without education we won't need any transportation at all because there won't be anyone able to do any of the work that brings people to New York. And the LIRR/GCT connection is needed as well, and will help to justify the Second Avenue line in the minds of those who have to fund it. (I know, it's justified without that, but not everyone sees it as we do.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I ride NJT and would support a fare increase if and only if we got better service and longer service. We need 24 hour service on the Northeast Corridor-even if some smaller stops are skipped and we need half hour service on weekends and to run larter at night befroe it goes hourly. I'd also support an increase if we had cleaner trains and thay ran on time. I'd also support an increase if NJT stopped building "Marble monuments" (garages) and started buying new cars and buses and keeping what they do have in running order. I am a taxpayer and would support a tax surcharge to pay for new cars and the second tunnel to NYC.
To Subway-Butt
I agree for better service on the Northeast Corridor. NJT should have never instituted mid-town direct until it could take care of what it already had. What's going to happen with the Secaucas transfer and the extra airport stop. The new Hamilton station has added to ridership according to some conductors I know. I ride with a scanner and have heard motormen radioing ahead for police to be on the Newark platform for crowd control because trains leave New York overcrowded. I hope your station isn't Metropark. That mistake of a new parking deck plus no road improvements in the area has driven too many people to shouting matches. Woodbridge police don't even try to control traffic because there's no where to send it. Raise the fares. No. I believe we still pay more per mile than LIRR riders and that's with no increase in eight years.
Several comments:
first- Yes, it is MetroPark and I agree with the garage problem. That is why I said Marble Monuments.
second- service has degraded since MidTown Direct. They pay more attention to their richer folk than us.
third- I dont want a fare increase. I was saying "if" and I dont expect the added service.
Fourth- I expect the crush to increase when Secaucus and Airport stations open.
Lastly- the name is subway-BUFF. I hope it was just a typo! if not a rule netiqutte is respect the senior posters of a group-I have been postuing for two years.
TO SUBWAY BUFF:
MEA CULPA, MEA CULPA, MEA CULPA
(Should spend more on schools, too). No argument. In NYC hospitals and social service agencies are the winners, transportation, education (especially for poor kids), parks and taxpayers (especially business) are the losers.
NYC spends $38 for every thousand dollars of its residents' personal income on schools, well below the national average $48. If it were a separate state, NYC would be second lowest in the U.S.
But in the rest of the state, it is the schools, not the non-profits, which are a greedy patronage machine. There, the average is $64 per $1,000. If the rest of the state were separate from the city, its school spending would be second to Alaskas, where they have to fly in teachers to individual students in the bush. Lots of other government services outside the city are also overstaffed and overpaid, one reason that Nassau County is going broke.
That's the deal -- the Democratic patronage machine in the city, and the Republican patronage machine in the rest of the state.
I realize we're drifting off topic a bit, but since I'm going on vacation in 30 minutes and won't be on the board for a week or so I'll offer one last comment in response. I lived in North Carolina for many years (and still maintain a home there) and had to suffer through a mediocre educational system for my children. The oldest one didn't attend school there, but the younger three did. All of my children have been blessed with significantly above-average abilities; the two middle children did extremely well in North Carolina schools, in spite of the problems with the educational system, simply because they were motivated to learn on their own outside of the school environment. (They are both in college now.) My youngest has Asperger's Syndrome (high-functioning autism) and, in spite of his high IQ, has had some difficulty learning in a traditional environment. North Carolina made a half-hearted effort to help him, but didn't really succeed. When I agreed to my employer's suggestion (back in late '97) that I make my "temporary" assignment in New Jersey more permanent, I did so because I found that New Jersey was willing to offer him the appropriate environment and assistance he needed for learning. He is now in seventh grade and doing very well, at last. I may complain about my property taxes, but I can clearly see the results too.
Until next week...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree this is also off topic, but having lived in Jersey, I can vouch for the schools being good. Most school districts there have, or had, excellent music programs. I poked my nose in my old high school band room in Pompton Plains in July of 1995, and there were dozens of trophies everywhere. I came away with a good feeling knowing that that particular music program is still doing very well, thank you.
My sister says Millburn's schools are among the best in the state.
Is education really a patronage machine in the rest of the state? How much do they spend per student?
Good education is expensive, and very much worth it. I don't think being average on education spending in the US is really adequate, or respectable.
If the rest of New York State were a separate state, its education spending as a share of its residents personal income would be second to Alaska, where they have to fly teachers to individual students in the bush.
Don't get me wrong. Those schools are good. But they are no better than those of New Jersey, which spends slightly above the national average instead of 60 percent more. The reason they cost so much is they have to pay for a patronage machine and good schools at the same time. In NYC we can spend 20 percent less than the national average AND have waste because the schools are only expect to educate the "gifted" students in the magnet schools.
Yes, out in Nassau County everyone Republican official gets a few relatives on the payroll. In New York City, the Democrats feed off the health and social services industry. In order to fund these gravy trains, the disinvest on what they don't care about -- transporation and (in the city) schools.
[Is education really a patronage machine in the rest of the state? How much do they spend per student?
Good education is expensive, and very much worth it. I don't think being average on education spending in the US is really adequate, or respectable.]
I'm not quite sure that "patronage machine" is an accurate description, but many parts of the state do spend inordinate amounts on the public schools. Salaries are among the highest in the country, especially for adminstrative personnel. I have seen some per-pupil spending figures for Long Island districts; I can't recall them specifically but some were in the $12,000+ category. Needless to say, high education spending means less for transportation.
It has never been proven that higher spending means better education. New Hampshire typically is first or second among the states in average SAT scores, also with one of the lowest drop out rates, yet its per-pupil spending is just about the lowest of any state.
(Per pupil spending is low in New Hampshire). But people in New Hampshire spend more than average on education AS A SHARE OF THEIR INCOMES. That is the key data. Teachers may not earn a lot relative to Wall Streeters, but they earn a lot relative to other New Hampshiroids, so education attracts the best.
Spending is NYC is low relative to income. Teachers salaries are 10 percent above the U.S. average, but overall per capita income in the region is 35 percent above average -- and so are housing prices (no coincidence). So teachers are worse off relatively. In the rest of the state, teachers are paid 60 to 100 percent above the U.S. average.
If you go to the census bureau homepage, governments division, public schools report, they have a table on spending as a share of personal income on schools. It lines up pretty well with quality.
NYC spending on transport, as a share of personal income, is very low.
[NYC spending on transport, as a share of personal income, is very low]
Compared, though, to what? Looking at *overall* transportation spending in NYC as compared to the rest of the country is bound to be misleading. That's because "transportation" in most places really means motor vehicles, while in NYC mass transit is a major part of the mix. This is bound to render the area-by-area comparisons less than meaningful. What might make more sense is to look only at those (few) metropolitan areas with major mass transit systems.
There is also a interesting editorial in the march 16 Daily News about building a subway tunnel connecting the Staten Island rapid transit...If I understand correctly there have been engineering drafts drawn up
and parts of a tunnel built for this purpose in the 1920's and 30's..Any
future subway expansion should include connecting the SIRT....
Infact now is an excellent time to build it because the Gowanus expressway will undergo extensive work causing huge problems for
Brooklyn and Staten Island residents......!
You're right, it probably should be built, but what would the cost be for underwater construction? And if it should come to pass what would become of the S.I.Ferry? I'd hate to see the ferry removed.
(Tunnel to Staten Island) Since so few Staten Islanders have access to the SIRT, the cost of a tunnel per rider would be insane. Besides, it would not only allow Staten Islanders to get to Manhattan, but also allow Brooklynites to get to Staten Island. What would the borough of NIMBYs think about that? The only way I see a tunnel happening is it worked like the tolls -- $1.50 for Staten Islanders, $7.00 for Brooklynites.
What Staten Island really wants is commuter rail, with no stops in Brooklyn before Downtown, and then on to Manhattan. That can be done, but only if you eliminate the West End and Sea Beach expresses, and run them on the local track (or run the West End as a local, and have the Sea Beach and Staten Island trains bypass 36th St). And then, you'd have to reduce the number of trains serving Brooklyn, because of the Manhattan Bridge problem. So you're talking about two tunnels, not just one.
Would Staten Islanders be willing to pay express bus fares, and set up a special property tax district, to pay for those? If so, perhaps commuter railesque service could happen. As it stands, I think I new express bus only lane on a rebuilt Gowanus, and express buses that do not stop in Brooklyn at all and do not require construction on Staten Island, are more likely to meet Staten Island's "needs."
(Staten Island tubes) You're speaking in short term goals....Staten Island residents want and need a expansion of the subway system
to include the SIRT...!!.#1 increase bus access in Staten Island to the SIRT..This would allow all SI residents to use the SIRT-subway to
Bklyn,Manhattan...In public meetings in SI there is huge support for this..This is what Staten Island wants and needs for the 21st century..
Whats interesting is the 4th ave subway line is designed for expansion to SI...These plans were halted in the 30's not for
lack of money,rather politics....!! Robert Moses remember him...!
The current Manhattan bridge woes should have nothing to do
with expansion plans..Infact when these repairs are finished,this route
will be able to handle the increased frequencies...A second tunnel
is not needed...!!
A new express bus route on the finished Gowanus WILL NOT meet
Staten Island residents needs..This will only compound a problem
of pollution( Remember the clean air act) Traffic,etc.... And for funds..
The metrocard..Increased ridership citywide and state and federal
transportation grants will pay for expansion NOT property taxes on
Staten Island residents.....
I think the only way Staten Island will get a tunnel is if they can somehow wrangle federal funding for a two-level tunnel (like 63rd St.) with the lower level designed for freight rail traffic to hook up the exisiting rail line in SI to the proposed deep water port in Brooklyn (the water on the Jesery side apparently isn't deep enough for the new generation of freighters).
The MTA could even sub-lease its South Brooklyn freight line to create a direct link from N.J. through S.I., East New York and Queens to New England via Hell's Gate, which would eliminate the long detour up the Hudson rail freight currently has to travel. But this would have to be a city/state/federal project to come anywhere near the money required.
(Freight rail tunnel to SI). Everyone knows that there is no way rail freight service through north shore neighborhoods would never be approved. Aside from the Jersey St area, these are middle income plus neighborhoods, and if they don't get satisfaction at City Hall they can go right to Republicans at other levels of government. If the NIMBYs are not complaining now, its only because there is litte chance of this happening. Its just a bureaucrats fantasy.
[(Freight rail tunnel to SI). Everyone knows that there is no way rail freight service through north shore neighborhoods would never be approved. Aside from the Jersey St area, these are middle income plus neighborhoods, and if they don't get satisfaction at City Hall they can go right to Republicans at other levels of government.]
Wait - I thought that most of Staten Island's north shore was relatively low income. In fact, there was a long post on Subtalk many months ago, about a walking trip along the old SIRT north shore line, and the poster cautioned that some of the route is dangerous because of the neighborhoods traversed.
Most of the north shore is low income -- with the Kill Van Kull and all the industrial activity on the New Jersey side, it's just not a very attractive area for higher income homes. A rail line along the shore (or run under Richmond Terrace and Bay Street) wouldn't run through the high income neighborhoods, though that doesn't mean NIMBY problems would disappear.
Actually, I think West New Brighton (near snug harbor) is the nicest area of the island, but Staten Islanders wouldn't think so. Its the one part of the city where they like new buildings instead of old ones (for themselves, not for other people -- they don't like construction on SI either).
I thought this wave was about the Second Avenue Line. Since when was Second Avenue relocated to Staten Island?
Since people follow threads and don't change the subject. While this thread started on the subject of the Second Ave line, someone said 'What we really need is a line to Staten Island' And then the thread digressed. Happens all the time on usenet.
-Hank
The second avenue line hasn't been built for the past 70 years, and
with the bureaucrats leading us, we might as well plasn another 70 years for the line to be built.
The current plan to build it between E. 63rd street and east 125 street. I suggest a two level line, each with three tracks, one lelel local, another expres, middle tracks used for maitenance/ fan trips/ train tests. Rather than build it through the dense financial disrict, let's just build it from Chatham Square to the Brooklyn Bridge (Lex. ave. line)station, which has two abandoned side tracks,
which can be used by the second ave. trains.
The line's Bronx extension can be elevated- the ground is too rocky
(and costly) for a subway. Build three extensions- revive the Third ave. El. in the Bronx, build a line along the shore (Lafayette Ave)
toward Throgs neck (an old 1930 plan) And an El. along Boston Road from Third Ave. toward Co-op City. All these lines will have connections to other Bronx el.s and yards.
Please introduce this plan to the planners at MTA. Oh yeah, I forgot how greedy these bureaucrats are, they probably won't care about my plan anyway.
Abandoned side tracks at Brooklyn Bridge? Are you thinking of the abandoned side platforms? Or do you mean unused tracks at the BMT Chambers St. station? Using the ROW from Chambers St. to the former connection with the Manhattan Bridge, then turning up Chrystie St. would fit with the original plan to eventually make the Grand St. station into a four-track, two-island-platform station.
As for an el "along Boston Road from Third Ave. toward Co-op City.", I don't think the Wildlife Conservation Society (aka the NY Zoological Society) would appreciate it; that route would pass right through the Bronx Zoo. Anyway, there already is an el along part of Boston Road, from 174th St. to 178th St. It is part of the #2/#5 line, original IRT construction not convertible to B division standards.
#20th on my list of things to do (and God knows we'll never get that far) would be to tear down the 2/5 el in the South Bronx and replace it with a Boston Rd subway. As it is, the 2/5 is just blocks away from the #6, a duplicative waste, while areas further north/west (which had been served by the 3rd Ave El) are too far from service. Plus its a more direct route for the express.
I think the #6 serves different people than the #2 and 5. The two lines don't really come that close, except at one point in the middle, where you can see the #6 el structure from the 2/5 line. Certainly the distance between the two lines is consistently greater than the distance between the #4 and the B/D line.
(It seems odd talking about a "B/D" line. Didn't we once have a poster who misunderstood what the "sub" in "sub-talk" stood for? This can only further the misunderstanding. "Keep both hands on those straps, slave!")
You can see the 6 from the Simpson St Station on the 2/5 as it turn on Southern Blvd from Westchester Ave. The 6 is turning on Westchester Av after Whitlock Ave. Station.
(It seems odd talking about a "B/D" line. Didn't we once have a poster who misunderstood what the "sub" in "sub-talk" stood for? This can only further the misunderstanding. "Keep both hands on those straps, slave!")
ROTFLMAO!!!!!! How about a conductor in leather announcing "No smoking, littering, or loud playing of radios. The punishment is an immediate five lashes!" The tourists would love it (the dark side of New York and all that) and it sure would cut back on the litter!
[[(It seems odd talking about a "B/D" line. Didn't we once have a poster who misunderstood what the "sub" in "sub-talk" stood for? This can only further the misunderstanding. "Keep both hands on those straps, slave!")]
ROTFLMAO!!!!!! How about a conductor in leather announcing "No smoking, littering, or loud playing of radios. The punishment is an immediate five lashes!" The tourists would love it (the dark side of New York and all that) and it sure would cut back on the litter!]
On 23rd Street in Manhattan, immediately adjacent to the 1/9 station, there actually is a S&M theme restaurant. Perhaps an underground entrance from the station platform ...
When the Williamsburgh closes, you'll sort of have an S (shuttle) and M line on Broadway in Brooklyn.
Although this was part of the forgotten Second system, never built,
many Brooklynites want to extend the Nostrand, Liberty Ave., Livonia Ave. lines, Rebiuld the Culver shuttle. However, the most recent, and cheapest plans for Utica Ave. is to build it south of Fuilton St. towards Ave U and Flatbush Ave. at Kings Plaza mall. Mostly elevated.
The original plans were a houston st. line with a tunnel across to grand street., then, under Brooklyn's Broadway, or Manhattan Ave, to Stuvesant ave. to Utica Ave. On this route it will be directly under the Myrtle Ave station (J,Z,M trains). Another plan is to extend it along Montrose St. toward the freight Bushwick terminal (L.I.R.R)
an needless to say, a 1929 plan to use it as a subway line.
From there it can go along the unused Evergreen Line (parallel to
L train, then connect to it and terminate at Atlantic Ave ( which has two unused middle platforms ready for it).
However, my plan will still keep the unused South 4th Street juncton unused, unless another planned tunnel from East Broadway in Manhattan (planned Worth street line, uses it). This can all be fornd on the IND Second System website.
Oh yeah, those careless bureaucrats will never listen or even care about thisa plan, or any new subway Brooklyn needs.
I don't think the problem is the bureaucrats not listening. They know full well what needs to be done. Are the bureaucrats the politicians? Who appropriated the money? The bureaucrats or politicians? It costs money to build new subway lines, and lots of it.
If you go way back, you will see my plans for a Utica Ave. line. I will post it up again in a few days.
What about the CNJ tracks from the Amboys north? These tracks cross the tracks leading to the North Shore of Staten Island and they also cross Amtrak's tracks that run to Penn Station. Single track operation can yield a frequency of 13 minutes in each direction at peak hours. No one ever talks about rehabilitating these tracks because there's too much tape to cut. A private company, however...
Isn't Conrail using them?
That letter to the editor wants to connect the SIRT to the #1 at South Ferry. Obviously a layman, nothing to be done about that. But Staten Island is the birthplace of NIMBY, and despite the vocal few, you'll find that a majority don't want a connection to the subway, ESPECIALLY if it will run past 'their property'. As I have said before, unless it can be built absurdly cheap, it'll never happen.
There have been several failed attempts to connect Staten Island to the city subway system, and all failed due to money or political problems.
-Hank
Where is this majority....?? As a resident of Staten Island I would like to meet them...! I've never heard them at any community meetings..?
When you have a local political establishment that spends millions on how to relocate the yankees to the west side and projects a cost of
a few billion dollars to build a new stadium.. It is this and many other pork-barrel projects, why the second ave subway and other useful
projects will never happen....! Hence the movement to breakaway
from the 4 borough's(city of new york) A lack of good efficient mass transportation is one of many reasons...!
Heres another interesting point... If it takes the British and French
3 years to tunnel under the English channel with American made equipment THRU bedrock...I think the City of New York can tunnel
under the narrows in half that time....!! Lets see 33 miles compared to
1.5 miles... Hats off to the layman even if he's heading to the wrong
borough...!!
-Marty
I'm sure the majority of Staten Islanders are reasonable, and want public improvements.
But the majority who shows up to public meetings, send letters, and file lawsuits are not. That's especially true of those living S of the Expressway.
Where was the outcry in favor when Molinari proposed a very reasonable road improvement plan? The majority was silent, and the jerks were loud.
While I don't think the equipment used in the Chunnel was American Made (I believe it was French or German) they most definatly did NOT tunnel through Bedrock. Much of the tunnel was bored through a semi-soft material called 'chalk marl' The rest was clay, sand, and some rock. Additionally, the Chunnel was built by a for-profit corporation, which also happens to be several BILLIONS in debt from cost overruns and delays. The sooner they finished the project, the sooner they would stop bleeding money. This sort of scheme won't work in NYC, because there are simply too many alternatives available that are of the same or higher efficiency.
-Hank
Correct me if I'm wrong -- isn't it CHEAPER to tunnel through bedrock, especially with the new boring machines, because the roof isn't caving in as you tunnel? Aren't stations the expensive part, because you have to cut through the loose surface, and all the utility lines?
As for 'now' being a good time to build it, it's going to take 5 YEARS just to paint the V-Z. Tunneling will take at least 1/2 that time. You'd also be tunneling through a lot of bedrock, which can be difficult to tunnel through.
-Hank
Of course, if I could organize all my thoughts into a single post, it would help. It will likely take longer to dig the tunnel than it will take to rehab the Gowanus.
-Hank
I forgot to post this awhile ago: Spike Lee's anticipated "Summer of Sam" used the IRT 180th Street station for the Kew Gardens LIRR station (I'm not kidding!)
This was back in September of last year as I was on at that time (I had loaned my old Dodge for filming.
Due to the large number of expired MetroCards found in the stations (and as decorations on buses!), I think it's time someone wrote a greeting-card store book with the above title. To start the ball rolling:
1. Use to scoop up the guacamole dip at your next party.
2. Try to get cash from it at your local ATM. (I once used a MasterCharge credit card to open a private parking lot at Denver University over 20 years ago!)
3. Scan it and use it as Windows wallpaper.
3 down, 98 to go!
Bob Sklar
4. Hang it from your rear view mirror.
5. Wear it around your neck
6. Glue them to your wall to create a new type of wallpaper.
. . . . . . . . . .
101. Take it to a token booth, add value to it, and use it again.
C'mon, Vartan! I meant a nonrefillable 30-day MetroCard!
Bob
(I don't remember where we left off...)
n. Throw it into the wind. If it flies off, it's windy. If it falls to the ground, the wind is calm.
n+1. Standing outside, hold it out in front of you (flat side up). If it gets wet, it's raining. If it gets white, it's snowing. If ice bounces off it, it's hailing or sleeting. If you can't see it, it's foggy. If it's "swiped" from you hand, you're in a tornado.
And that's transit and weather together.
I like the blinking sign :-) We'll all have to learn how to do that.
Mr t__:^)
Easy, Mr. T.
Just enclose the material to be blinked within "blink" tags.
<blink> material to be blinked </blink>
Hey, I though of another one just for you (from my old bus driving days...)
n+3. If your bus is stuck in ice or snow, take one (though probably more than one will be necessary) and place it under the spinning wheel for additional traction.
I think we need to make SubTalk strip out blink tags... :-) and while I'm at it, cancel any post with the words "blink" or "flash" and "lights" in close proximity...
How about this: since the hats/patch idea hasn't come to fruition yet because the volunteer needs more info and concurrence from our illustrious Web Site Host :-) we can tack them to our hats!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is getting almost as good as the discussions previously had on the blinking lights of IRT redbirds ....
--Mark
They could use them to shingle bus shelters
Now I guess something else must be wrong with my iMac. I seem to have words going on and off .
Todd old friend I think you have started something ...
and i'll take no credit of it :-)
Back to thread ...
Use old MCs for ticker tape parades, hay it would be better then a ream of pin feed paper falling on your head !
Mr t__:^)
It's not my fault, Mr. T. Only the weather is my fault. Anyway, the answer about using HTML tags was right here in a deep, dark, corner of Subtalk!
n+4. Use them to do the shaving creme stubble test (you know, one side of the face used Brand X, and the other side Brand Y!)
HEY! I had rock in the Boy Scouts that told the weather too! Except we need a leaf to see if it was windy...
-Hank :)
I been reading about Westchester Master Tower. What is a Master Tower.
What is the diffrents between a Master Tower and a regler Tower.
A master tower is an area that controls switches and signals in a large area. A regular tower does the same, except a much smaller area. For example, at 111st station on the J line,there are a series of switches at the north end of the station that are used to turn back trains southbound or to store trains for a period of time.On the Manhattan bound platform at the north end is an old tower. A tower operator used to have to be present in order to turn or store trains. Since new signals were put in a few years ago,the switches and corresponding signals were set up to be controlled by E.N.Y master tower.It is nothing but a cost saving concept.You're combining small interlocking locations into one big one.
Approximately how many regular towers and master towers are in the subway system? How many towers were there before they started to consolidate them into master towers?
Also, how many towers are staffed late nights, compared to the number staffed during the rush hours?
Lastly, how much territory do master towers typically control? 2 interlockings? 5? 10?
All of the master towers are staffed 24/7. Part time towers such as Freeman Street or Bedford Av on the L are part time. How many part time towers are staffed on the midnights depends on what G.O.'s are working.
As for how many interlockings do master towers control, it depends on where it is. A place like West 4th Tower may control 6th Av and 8th Av at that stop which is several switches, but it is still a local tower. A Master Tower like Stillwell tower controls switches at Still Terminal, Ocean Parkway, Brighton Beach and Kings Highway and will include 86th St, Av R(Kings Highway) and 6th Av(just north of 8th Av on the Sea Beach.
I was on the Newark City Subway today and there were work crews installing a third track just south of the inbound platform at Orange St. Does anyone know what this will be used for. Thanks
Larry,RedbirdR33
A report from Milwaukee (Scale Model Traction & Trolleys Quarterly) says "Newark, NJ: A 1 mile surface extension to the Newark Subway is under construction with new stations and barn near Bloomfield. This town last saw subway/surface cars in 1952."
Mr t__:^)
Thurston:Thanks,that makes some sense as it does look like a one track connection.Larry
At Orange Street a temporary bridge is being built over the Morris and Essex commuter rail line; it's just to the west of the existing bridge. The line will return to the original alignment when the old bridge is replaced.
The extension to Bloomfield starts at the northern end of the line at Franklin Avenue. I saw a work crew last week at that location doing what seemed to be the earliest stage of the project. The line will cross Franklin Avenue at grade and then ramp up (heading west) to the old Erie Railroad right-of-way.
Do you know if they are going to retain the existing Franklin station?
I guess with this extension, it's over for that wonderful track loop, the only one left around these parts.
Wayne
"are going to retain the existing Franklin station?"
There are conflicting published reports. Most say that there will be a new Franklin Station. The new alignment is supposed to follow a Conrail (ex-EL) freight branch. I looked at a Newark city map and noted the relative locations of the streetcar and railroad alignment. The Newark City subway is running north and will have to turn west just before Franklin avenue Station to enter the railroad Right Of Way.
From what I understand, the extension will continue directly from the end of the existing line. It will run behind the liquor store on Franklin Avenue, turn west, cross Franklin Avenue at grade, and then use a new ramp to reach the Erie "West Orange" branch. From there it will run along the railroad right of way in a basically southwest direction. There will be one more grade crossing in Belleville, and then the terminal and new shop will be at Grove Street in Bloomfield. (There is no street running, however.) Franklin Avenue will still be a stop, but it is unlikely that the loop will be needed once the PCCs are gone.
I was out at Broad Channel last week and the Rockaway Shuttles are still deheading all the way to Howard Beach to reverse. I thought the purpose of that short third track north of the station was to relay the shuttles. It seems long enough to hold a 300'long train.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The track is not quite yet complete. Should be in use by summer
Larry, I guess that you did not get any of my Emails. Did you have any information for me on the Open Platform Gate Cars?
Thanks! Karl B.
Karl: Good to hear from you. I received your e-mails of3/13 and 3/14 and replied five times but apparently you didn't get them. My last message was a few minutes ago(630pm Tue). I've been working this weekend and didn't have a chance to contact MSN to ask about the e-mail. Headlights was/is published by the National ERA and usually has one or two feature articles plus news. I havn't subscibed to Headlights in about ten years so I wasn't aware of the issue you mentioned. I would recommend the Sep-Nov 1975 issue to you. It contains a line by line (#1-16) history and description of all BMT routes and a good side article about the use of nine foot cars on ten foot wide lines. Another article would be the Tracks of New York No 2 Brooklyn Elevated Railroads by Alan Paul Kahn and Jack May published by the ERA in 1974. It has pages of track maps of the BRT in 1910.Both publications have many excellent photos of the BU and other Gate Cars, not to mention some good shots of the surrounding neighborhoods. Sorry for taking so long to get back to you but maybe with a few days off I'll get to the bottom of the problem.
PS We had a whole three inches of snow here in Beacon for the Great Blizzard of 99.
Best Wishes,Larry
Larry, I sort of felt that you probably got my Emails because my provider normally returns those that can't be delivered. I guess we will have to comunicate here till your Email gets straightened out. I'll bet the other guys will get on us about that.
Thanks a lot for the info which I have printed out for reference. I so wish that I had a camera when I was riding those Open Platform Gate Cars in the 1940's. I guess that it is really too late now to try to hunt for pictures of them but I'll keep trying.
We got about 12 inches of snow here in Gettysburg but the sun has taken away about 3/4 of it already.
Regards, Karl B.
I would recommend the Sep-Nov 1975 issue to you. It contains a line by line (#1-16) history and description of all BMT routes and a
good side article about the use of nine foot cars on ten foot wide lines. Another article would be the Tracks of New York No 2 Brooklyn Elevated Railroads by Alan Paul Kahn and Jack May published by the ERA in 1974.
Both excellent references. Your best chances of getting them are at a train show devoted to traction fans, like the East Penn show coming up at the end of April; that's where I got mine.
--Mark
Mark: Would you please tell me exactly where this show is to be held.It sounds like a good place to vist.
Thanks,Larry
The East Penn Traction Club show will be held at the South Jersey Expo Center in Pennsauken, NJ on April 30th (evening) and May 1st, 1999. On May 2nd, a "Center City" trolley fantrip on SEPTA is planned.
All information on the show is available from the East Penn web site.
--Mark
Mark: Thanks alot.Larry
Was just at the MTA MetroCard site and starting 4/1 they will have a new series of MetroCards. There will be 4 cards:
1999 Home Game Schedule - $4 Fun Pass
Home and Away: The Best - $6
125 Wins - $15 (with free ride)
1998 World Series Highlights - $17 Unlimited Weekly
For more info the URL is:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/metrocard/ynkefaqs.htm
It looks like someone in MetrCard Central has discovered that there are a group of collectors out there that will buy every card issued.
I for 1 can't see myself running down to buy the $15 & $17 cards :-(
Eye still only have 2 of the 3 similar cards from June '97.
Mr t__:^)
I am *guessintg* that they may not be sold in booths. I **will** post official info on new cards when I see a bulletin, or poster announcing the card on trains or in stations.
As I was searching the Web I found this Web Site that talks about the future of verious Transit Systerms. On the top it talks about New York City Transit and Communications Based Train Control. Also most of it talked about the Canarsie Line and the Phases. Ofcause this site also carrys this but I can't unzip the files so you might have seen this already.
www.tsd.org/communic.htm
Someone asked the question of what is a master tower? A master tower on NYCT has the ability to align and cancel routing, request track swithes to move, turn automatic routing on and off, request hold lights and starting lights. It will display the indications for routing, switch locking, switch position, track occupancy, power indications and other indications. The master tower has control of many interlockings on a line section communicating to the various relay rooms and central instrument rooms via a code system. Of course, interlockings can be operated by the maintainers' panel in the rooms they control.
The master towers are like a mini central control facility or Centralized Traffic Control (CTC) on a mainline railroad.
One Question. When the new control Center is built will they be able to Control the Master Towers or would each Individal master tower still be in full control ?
The idea is to have everything (switches and signals) controlled from the Control Center by computer. Similar to what the freight railroads do. Union Pacific may have one control center (in Omaha I believe) and they control all the switches. That means every state from California to Illinois. They will keep the master towers however. They'll still be there for backup. Probably the only local towers that will be in use will be at the yards.
This is not always true that a computer is used. On NYCT no computers are used at master towers except when a microprocessor based code system is used to communicate with the relay rooms. Installational before 1990 used reed relays with multiconductor telephone cable.
The microprocessor based code systems are typically GRS Centracode IIS or US & S Genisys. Even today no microprocessors other than code systems are used in the master towers.
A workstation will be used at Queensboro Plaza to control Queens Plaza and 36th Street Interlockings on the IND with the 63rd Street Connection.
So will microprocessors *really* control the interlocking at QP, or will they just ask the relays for a routing?
I cannot see why NYCT cannot trust microprocessors...
The new control center will eventually control the entire system. I would think that the master towers will remain and there will be transfer of control from the master tower to the control center.
Would anyone happen to have a list of all the MASTER TOWERS and what they control?
Although these are not all called master towers, they are...
IRT
1-Times Square manline-controls 7th Av from Chambers Street to 96th Street.
2-240 St controls #1 line from 242 to 103 including 240 yard (there are some local towers that can take control such as 137 but they are generally only used for General Orders)
3-Grand Centralcontrols Lex from just south of Brooklyn Bridge to 125
4-Westchester MAster controls the #6 line from Pelham to 138/3rd and Westchester Yard
5-Nevins St controls Atlantic Av to Wall ST on #2 and #4/5 lines as well as South Ferry on the #1.
6-Utica Tower controls Utica to Nostrand Junction to Flatbush.
****note, Unionport (where East 180 is will be a master after modernization is complete encompassing White Plains from 241 to Jackson Av and the Dyre Av line.
B Division
1-Stillwell Tower controls Brighton Line from Stillwell to Kings Highway and will also control the Sea Beach to just north of 8th Av
2-Murphy Tower controls 4th Av from 95th Street to 36th Street and will control West End after signal modernization.
3-Dekalb controls Brighton from Prospect Park to alllswitches at Manhattan Bridge, Pacific Street and M/N/R to Court Street
4-City Hall controls from M cutoff south of Whitehall to 42nd Street on Broadway
5-59th St Master controls 8th Av from 59 to 145
6-207 Master controls 8th Av from 207 to 168
7-East New York Master controls from Marcy Av to Metroplitan and also the J line to Crescent
8-Liberty Junction controls the A from Lefferts over to Howard Beach (this is something of a small master).
I think this covers everything. There are many small towers and remote towers that control 1 interlocking or 1 group of switches for example, West 4th, Freeman St, 137,Bedford Av(L line), 5th Av(West End), Canal St 8th Av,34th Street, QUeensbridge, Queens Plaza, and many more that I don't have the time right now to list. Eventually these will all be eliminated too, but hopefully not in our lifetime.
You forgot about the following:
Essex Street
Parsons/Archer Avenue
Livonia Yard-New Lots Avenue to Utica (indications only).
Queensboro Plaza-Controls the Astoria Line
Times Square on the Flushing line
111th Street on the Flushing Line
Jerome Yard-Controls the Jerome Avenue Line
149th Street-Controls the Jerome Avenue Line
Thank You for put up the Towers this will be helpful on the Computor game I have called Train Dispatchor 2. Where it was a Similation of a real tower board. I also got Track Builder 2 where I am building the some tower in the NYC Subway Systerm. I started with the IRT. I built and is now running the the Similations of the following Towers.
240 Street, 137 Street, Times Sqaure, Grand Central, and now working
on Nevins Tower.
To Law R-38 thank you very much for that tower list. It is greatly appreciated.
I saw a Master Tower on 41st on 1, 2, 3 downtown lines.
That's Times Square Mainline...controls 7th Av IRT from Chambers to 96th Street.
I hope that the 3 do not have to give up its cars to the 7. I think that the people in Brooklyn seen enough of the Redbirds. I hope the 1 aka the "showcase" line give it up. I do not want the 6 to give up it cars also.........
If any R62A's are given to the #7, don't worry about it. The lines that give up those cars will not be getting redbirds, they will get R142's, or another modern car. The last of the redbirds will be on the #7, nowhere else...EXCEPT maybe when the R62's are being rebuilt, but that will only be a temporary thing.-Nick
What is the difference between the cars mentioned in the title? Only way I can tell them apart is by the windows on the 7 cars.
The R 33/36WF the lights blink.
AAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Hank
Well, the first, and most obvious place to look is the windows. On the R33 and R36 WF cars, they use a large window with small vent windows at the top. All the windows have rounded edges. Inside, look for the 'St. Louis Car Co, Builders' on the builders plate. This will identify R29, R33/33WF, and R36/36WF cars.
R26/28 were built by ACF, and will also have the indication. The car numbers are another way to tell, and they are listed in the illustraded car roster section of this site. Otherwise, the cars are essentially identical to the untrained eye. There are, most likely, subtle differences in the exteriors that people who work with the cars on a daily basis would notice.
-Hank
The R26, R28 were delivered painted dark green. The interiors were gray,with pink plastic seats.(like the R30's) R29, R33 were painted bright red, baby blue interior, gray plastic seats. R36 were painted blue & white, a slightly different shade of blue interior, blue plastic seats. I with they would restore some cars back to these colors. By the way, all the lights use to blink!
They have different interior paint jobs too, esp. on the ceiling.
R26, R28 and R29 are all buff (R26 and R28 have PA speakers in the center of the AC vents instead of little lites);
R33 are all white (some of them are peeling too) and have little emergency lites in the center of the AC vents;
R33WF have no AC - they have the old fans, they're white w/buff accents;
R36 is also white with buff accents.
Unit #s are listed in the illustrated Subway Car Roster.
Wayne
Lately, Im not seeing the R33 on the 4 line anymore. Only time I see them is at rush hour? What's up with that? I miss looking out the front window as you roar into Franklin and Atlantic Ave stations. Somebody, fill me in.
Well there are not much R 33 Redbirds really assigned to the No.4 but you should get a glimps of one. Woodlawn maybe lay them up to Musholu Yard or sent to New Lots to Levonia Yard. All I can say is stick with the No.2,3,5 Line for the front Window. But then the No.3 has at least 2 wide cabs.
The 9200 series (and the first six of the 9300 series) Redbirds run during mid-day as well; we saw one northbound at Gd.Central yesterday late AM.
Wayne
I finally see that there are work being done on the Crown Heights/ENY/Flatbush bound platform at Franklin Ave. for the transfer between the shuttle and the 2,3,4,5. It will be at the rear of the platform.
In addition to the transfer at Eastern Parkway, there is a bridge at Fulton Street, that will allow passengers to cross the street. The bridge looks real nice.....
It's about time the Franklin Shuttle came into this century now that the 20th is coming to a close!
BTW, the Franklin has alot of history not the least of which was the site of the worst subway train disaster in U.S. history -- the Malbone Street wreck of 1916(?).
The FS is also the origin of the Brigton Beach Line under the BRT banner. And despite the renovations, the line runs along essentially the same ROW from the steam railroad days at the turn of the century.
The Malbone Street wreck was in 1918. The exact date, I believe, was November 1,
Michael
[The Malbone Street wreck was in 1918. The exact date, I believe, was November 1]
In fact, the motorman thought that he'd been spared because it was All Saints' Day. But the date didn't do much for the 100+ dead passengers.
Last year, I inquired if anyone had a pix of Franklin Junction. There were accounts by the surviving passengers on the ill fated train, that the trail almost jumped the track at the junction because of the speed of the train.
I will have to go check the subtalk archives, because my computer suffered a lightning strike last year and I lost all my data.
Someone sent me a picture of the Franklin Ave Station. However, the junction was not visable or it had already been removed by the time the picture was taken. There was also a picture of the Prospect Park trolley loop and connection to the BRT.
The Maborne St. wreck was, in terms of loss of life, the second-worst rail accident in U.S. history. The worst, in which 101 people were killed, happened I believe three days earlier.
More than 101 people were killed in the Malbone St. Wreck. Although they died in the hospital, as a result of their injuries, and could be considered survivors.
I have NY Times articles from early November 1918 on the subject that I am planning on transscribing. Given it was the end of WWI, the war got much more coverage. The articles are not here at work with me; I'll check to see the number of casualties they list. I know that the total number of casualties was not from the wreck itself; after power got knocked out, BRT personnel thought it was striker sabotage and restored the power. A number of people were electrocuted trying to escape the wreck. When power shorted out again, BRT personnel figured there was really something amiss and kept the power off.
For other info on the Brighton line, check out the line by line description of the < href="http://www.nycsubway.org/lines/brighton/">Brighton Line. Of course, any additions or corrections are welcome.
--Mark
Re: people being electrocuted after the Malbone Street wreck.
I did quite a bit of source research on this, and never heard this. Source, please?
[Re: people being electrocuted after the Malbone Street wreck.
I did quite a bit of source research on this, and never heard this. Source, please?]
Stan Fischler reports the electrocution story in his book _The Subway_. He says that "dozens of [crash] survivors" were electrocuted. There is no source listed.
>[Re: people being electrocuted after the Malbone Street wreck.
>I did quite a bit of source research on this, and never heard this. >Source, please?]
>Stan Fischler reports the electrocution story in his book _The >Subway_. He says that "dozens of [crash] survivors" were >electrocuted. There is no source listed.
It's been years since I looked up my research, so I'm not going to categorically says Fischler is outright wrong. But I'm familiar with a number of gruesome details of the wreck. I would think electrocution stories would have been widley reported and would stuck better in my memory--especially "dozens." Dozens would mean a quarter or more of the fatalities.
Plus the "company turned the power back on" story make for good class-baiting copy.
[It's been years since I looked up my research, so I'm not going to categorically says Fischler is outright wrong. But I'm familiar with a number of gruesome details of the wreck. I would think electrocution stories would have been widley reported and would stuck better in my memory--especially "dozens." Dozens would mean a quarter or more of the fatalities.]
This story in no way originated with Stan Fischler. I had heard of it long before reading his book, though AFAIK his was the first to mention the "dozens" of electrocutions.
Supposedly, the electrocutions, like the wreck itself, were a result of the BRT strike. When the operators at the BRT powerhouse realized that power had been interrupted at Malbone Street, they figured it had been an act of vandalism by the strikers and therefore switched the power back on without following normal procedures. Whether that's fact or legend is another source of dispute.
There is no mention of any electrocutions in Brian Cudahy's account of the Malbone St. wreck in Under the Sidewalks of New York.
In fact, Cudahy has presented a paper on the Malbone disaster at the Transit Museum..listing every death by name and home address. He NEVER mentions the electrocution story in the last edition of UTSONY,printed after his painstaking research. He reckons the actual death toll to be 97-all smashed to death in the first 2 cars of the train...
Again, I can't state without doubt that there was no injury or death by electricity, but I do not recall any individual story--and certainly not "dozens."
My parents were both Flatbush residents at the time of the wreck (my dad was 10, my mom 8) and they and others _still_ discussed it decades later when I was a kid. Virtually no Flatbush family was untouched--if you did not personally have a family member of that train, you knew or knew of someone who did.
Of the stories I heard from my parents, electricity never figured in any of them. My mother always cited the Malbone Street wreck to warn me to _never_ ride in the first or last car of any train. This is an irony, since the first and last cars of the 5-car train were nearly unscathed. It was the 2nd and 3rd cars that suffered almost all the deaths and injuries.
BTW, it has been noted that Antonio Luciano, the motorman, survived. The shocked man walked to the Prospect Park station, then to the Culver Line to Coney Island. IIRC, he was arrested while putting his things away in his locker.
I have less confidence in this detail, but I've heard that he later went insane.
[BTW, it has been noted that Antonio Luciano, the motorman, survived. The shocked man walked to the Prospect Park station, then to the Culver Line to Coney Island. IIRC, he was arrested while putting his things away in his locker.
I have less confidence in this detail, but I've heard that he later went insane.]
Yet another situation where stories vary. Stan Fischler reports that Luciano made his way home, where he sobbed to his wife that he'd been spared because it was All Saints' Day. He turned himself in several hours later after his wife implored him to do so. In this case, I'm inclined to believe the Fischler version. The All Saints' Day detail does add a touch of authenticity.
I never heard anything about Luciano's going insane. He seems to have faded from the historical record after his acquittal and the end of the inquiry into the crash. Luciano was only in his early twenties at the time of the crash, so it's possible that he lived until relatively recent years.
< in re: what did the Malbone Street motorman do after the wreck--go home or to his terminal >
Other contemporary reports had it that he went to the terminal where BRT officials spirited him away, giving him up to the police after questioning him.
All accounts I've ever heard or read have him leaving the scene unharmed.
On the subjecy of electrocution, those were wooden cars.
Combining the BRT strike, the death toll (second worst in U.S. rail history) and Mayor Hylan's intense dislike of the BRT, the electrocution story may have been part of the hyperbole just after the crash. Sensational and tragic events being used for political purposes is a time-honored tradition in New York, dating well back into the pre-Sharpton era.
[< in re: what did the Malbone Street motorman do after the wreck--go home or to his terminal >
Other contemporary reports had it that he went to the terminal where BRT officials spirited him away, giving him up to the police after questioning him.
All accounts I've ever heard or read have him leaving the scene unharmed.]
I was just looking again at Stan Fischler's account of Malbone Street in _The Subway_, and he reports that Luciano _ran_ all the way home ("He began a hysterical trot, then a run toward his home") But you're right, there is a general consensus that he survived the crash uninjured.
One interesting thing about Malbone Street that I recall reading is that several of the dead people never were identified. This wasn't because the bodies were mutilated beyond recognition. It's believed that they were recent immigrants who had come to America alone and lived in rooming houses or other semi-transient accomodations. Immigration levels in 1918 were off their turn-of-the-century peak but were still high by historical levels. And back then, before credit cards and work ID cards and health-plan membership cards, many if not most people carried no identification.
I can't remember exactly where I read this, although it definitely wasn't _The Subway_. It may have been in _Flatbush Odyssey_, a book written about five years ago by Canadian writer Alan Abel (who, like Stan Fischler, is best known as a sportswriter). I'll have to see if I can find my copy somewhere.
I found my copy of _Flatbush Odyssey_ and went over the description of the Malbone Street Wreck. The book, subtitled "A Journey Through the Heart of Brooklyn," was written by Allen Abel and published in Canada by McClelland & Stewart in 1995. The author repeats the story about how the operators at the BRT powerhouse restarted the third rail current, thinking the power interruption was sabotage by the striking workers, and says that 20 people were electrocuted as a result. This book in fact was my source for the recollection about the unidentified dead; it says that "many" of the women dead were never identified, males being identified through their draft cards.
_Flatbush Odyssey_ gives some sources for the description of the Malbone Street Wreck. These include the _Brooklyn Eagle_ of November 2, 1918; an article called "The Malbone Street Crash" in the _Daily News Magazine_ of November 6, 1988; and an article called "Subway Derailment Recalls '18 Catastrophe" in the _Daily News_ of December 8, 1974. There also are two books cited - _New York Notorious_ by Schwartzmann and Polner (Crown, 1992) and _Cash, Tokens and Transfers_ by Brian Cudahy (Fordham U. Press, 1990).
< I was just looking again at Stan Fischler's account of Malbone Street in _The Subway_, and he reports that Luciano _ran_ all the way home [ ... ] I recall reading is that several of the dead people never were identified. This wasn't because the bodies were mutilated beyond recognition. It's believed that they were recent immigrants who had come to America alone and lived in rooming houses or other semi-transient accomodations. [ ... ] >
This seems to me to be verging on an object lesson on how bad history is picked up from source to source to source. Isn't Fischler a sports writer? I just ordered his book because I need to see this for myself. I'm beginning to get the impression that he will go for the colorful over the accurate every time.
As to the unidentified immigrants, this should be viewed with quite a bit of skepticism. Recent immigrants in that era were generally laborers who would more likely have lived in rooming houses within walking distance of their jobs than in the relatively suburban (by 1918 standards) communities south of Prospect Park.
And even if they were rooming with someone in Flatbush, it is unlikely _no one_ would have reported them missing, in the face of a huge accident like that at Malbone Street.
[re historical (in)accuracies in _The Subway_]
It's difficult knowing what to make of Stan Fischler's books. He most definitely does enjoy adding colorful tidbits, but at what price? My overall impression is that he's willing to use whatever sources are available without getting too deeply into checking their reliability. This is not necessarily bad, as the books don't pretend to be a 100% accurate historical record, but rather a form of "popular history."
Wouldn't it be nice if Dave P. could get a copy of Cudahys paper that he presented at the TM, and post it? Or at least find out where one could get ahold of Mr Cudahy?? He seems to be an expert on this.....
< It's difficult knowing what to make of Stan Fischler's books. He most definitely does enjoy adding colorful tidbits, but at what price? My overall impression is that he's willing to use whatever sources are available without getting too deeply into checking their reliability. This is not necessarily bad, as the books don't pretend to be a 100% accurate historical record, but rather a form of "popular history." >
This _is_ 'necessarily bad' IMHO, because such material becomes source material for other printed matter, and gets repeated in other forums, as is happening on this subject and this newsgroup. (At least in the newsgroup there is opporunity for back-and forth).
As future writers repeat errors, they start to become accepted as fact. "I saw this story in three different printed sources."
As an aside, anyone can make up and copy colorful stories based on scraps of true information, and add some spice. How about this, which I just fabricated: "Luciano was an Italian immigrant sympathetic to the Axis cause. He volunteered to take the train out, willing to give up his life in the hope that wrecking the train would strike a demoralizing blow against the Allies. It is ironic he survived."
I can almost guarantee you that were in a printed article it would get picked up by some without any even bothering to investigate the rather simple point that, while Italy was allied with Germany in WWII, it was allied with the U.S., Britain and France in WWI.
There are a few mistakes in "The Subway", most notably the mixing-up of the car numbers in the description of the Union Square Wreck - he still insists on referring to the first car in the train as #1440 (it was the third) and the third car as #1437, which, as all accounts and photos clearly show, was the first.
Other than those few minor details, an excellent book. I bought it back on March 15 and have already read it three times.
Wayne
Joseph Cunningham and Leonard DeHart report the story of the electrocution in Part 2 of their History of the Subway System published in 1977. I heard the story long before that but I can't remember the source.It important to remember that the power had been interupted several times during strike and the powerhouse workers simply assumed this was another case of sabatoge by the strikers. They did not know there were people on the tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How do Cunningham & DeHart report the story of electrocutions at Malbone Street? As factual, possible, a rumor?
Paul: Joeseph Cunningham did the research for the History of the Subway System and in the forward to part 3 he references several sources including the Brooklyn Public Library and the Municipal Reference Library. The Cunningham account is a straight forward one and states that "Shaken survivors crawling in the tunnel were electrocuted." The Fischler account refers to "dozens."
"Uptown,Downtown" by Stan Fischler while an interesting book was written for a mass market and some events have been embellished and in places is not as accurate as I would like it to be. The research for this book was done by Dave Rubinstein.
"A History of the New York City Subway System" by Joseph Cunningham and Leonard De Hart is a comprehensive and well written account. I have found there research into many areas to be through and correct.
It would be interesting to read a report of the accident investigation at the time to find out what really occured.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Regarding the supposed electrocutions at Malbone Street - could they actually have happened, from a technical point of view? Presumably, the crash tore up the third rail and cut off the flow of current. Would throwing a switch at the BRT powerhouse re-energize the third rail considering that it was broken in one or more locations? I'll leave this up to the more technically inclined to answer.
Yes, it could. The circuit breaker would immediately have tripped out again (which did happen, as I was told on a Transit Museum tour that took us into the powerhouse), but a current surge to ground would occur before the breaker tripped. It was this surge - or series of surges, as I recall being told the breaker was reset two or three times - that killed the people on the tracks. It's the same effect as a downed power line will have.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A History of the New York City Subway System" by Joseph Cunningham and Leonard De Hart is a comprehensive and well written account.
... and boy do I wish I could get me a copy of it ....
--Mark
<< [< in re: what did the Malbone Street motorman do after the wreck--go home or to his terminal >>
<< Other contemporary reports had it that he went to the terminal where BRT officials spirited him away, giving him up to the police after questioning him. >>
<< All accounts I've ever heard or read have him leaving the scene unharmed.] >>
< I was just looking again at Stan Fischler's account of Malbone Street in _The Subway_, and he reports that Luciano _ran_ all the way home ("He began a hysterical trot, then a run toward his home") >
OK, I located some of my notes. All my notes are from contemporary sources. The following is from a statement attributed to the motorman (Antonio Luciano, aka Edward Anthony Lewis, aka Anthony E. Lewis, aka "Billy" Lewis:
"I was in the tunnel when the crash came. I helped several people to get out. Then, when I was confronted by the sight of the mangled bodies, the horror of it sickened me and I left. I went to Culver Depot to change my clothes."
A curious (and meaningless) aside is that I identified at least four people surnamed "Lewis" who were in some way in involved in the accident or subsequent prosecution:
Edward Anthony Lewis, anglicized name of the motorman;
Merton E. Lewis, Attorney General of NYS;
Harry E. Lewis, prosecuting District Attorney;
________ Lewis, BRT Dispatcher (I can't immediately locate his role).
Anyway, elsewhere on this BBS I see that Brian Cudahy has accouned his book of the Malbone Street wreck. Brian's been around over three decades that I know of and is an excellent researcher. I'll be very surprised if any of his conclusions are at variance with my information.
If I'm not mistaken, the second car of that ill-fated train was totally destroyed. It derailed and the third and fourth cars plowed into it. As a result of this disaster, wooden elevated equipment was prohibited from subway operation.
Had it been a train of BMT standards, there would have most likely been far fewer fatalities, and the cars would have come away with a few scrapes and bruises.
P. S. Brian Cudahy mentioned that Luciano and his wife had lost a child to the Spanish influenza epidemic that year, and that he had recently returned to work after a bout with that same bug.
< If I'm not mistaken, the second car of that ill-fated train was totally destroyed. It derailed and the third and fourth cars plowed into it. As a result of this disaster, wooden elevated equipment was prohibited from subway operation. >
No, the third car was totally destroyed. The second lost its roof and one side. By far the greatest fatalities were in the third car.
< Had it been a train of BMT standards, there would have most likely been far fewer fatalities, and the cars would have come away with a few scrapes and bruises. >
Goes without saying. However, I wonder as to the structural integrity of newer (i.e., current NYCTA) equipment. In its desire to reduce weight, are some of the new cars any more structural sound than the wooden cars were? Look what happened to the cars in the Union Square accident. If that had occurred nearer the rush hour, it could have surpassed Malbone St. in fatalities.
Well, the southbound #4 was fairly crowded, even at 12:11AM, news reports said there were standees in many cars - this is a major north-south trunk line. As for the structural integrity of the R62, the ends may be fairly sturdy, but the sides offer little resistance to severe impact. If that was a train of R33s, the first car would not have split in two as did #1437 - it would have been dented severely, perhaps there would have been some penetration of the outer steel skin, but I don't believe it would have split. Similarly, the third car, if it were an R33, would have probably suffered the same damage as #8884 did at Franklin Avenue - rather than the massive gash that nearly cut the car in half. There was a photo of #1440's interior in an October 1991 edition of Newsday, regarding the follow-up and NTSB investigation of the crash - the two sides of the car were almost touching each other, so close that one wall of the car actually folded up the seats on the opposite side.
Malbone St. wreck: Car #80 was the second car, lost its roof and side as described earlier; #100, the third car, was gone - right down to the sill. The photo on Pg. 124 of Stan Fischler's book shows three cars involved in the wreck at the yard.
Wayne
[As for the structural integrity of the R62, the ends may be fairly sturdy, but the sides offer little resistance to severe impact. If that was a train of R33s, the first car would not have split in two as did #1437 - it would have been dented severely, perhaps there would have been some penetration of the outer steel skin, but I don't
believe it would have split. Similarly, the third car, if it were an R33, would have probably suffered the same damage as #8884 did at Franklin Avenue - rather than the massive gash that nearly cut the car in half.]
Re the comparison of #1440 and #8884 - weren't the speeds at Union Square considerably higher than at Franklin Avenue?
When did the accident @ Franklin occur? Could anybody tell me details on this accident? What line did it occur?
The accident that involved #8884 happened on July 15, 1997 about 1AM.
#8884 was the last car of a southbound #2 train when it picked the switch and derailed, hitting the curtain wall. There was a large vertical dent in the right side of the car and the frame was bent, prompting NYCT to scrap it right then and there.
Wayne
No wonder I did not hear about it. I wasnt in the city that summer.....
I don't think they had much of a choice about scrapping that car - according to the news reports at the time, because of the way the frame was bent, the car would have scraped the station platforms had they tried to run it back to the yard. They actually had to cut the car up at the scene and haul away the pieces on flatbed workcars to get it out of there, even though the car never fully left the track.
You know that R33 #8885 is still laying at E180st Yard?? That car used to be married pair with R33 #8884 before the accident.
Yes, #8885 has taken a second career - she now wears a yellow coat and is known as the Gel Applicator Car. I saw her sunning herself at E180 St yard back on March 15.
Wayne
Well, baring the rare type of accident that occured at Union Square, there's really little need for reinforceing the sides of the train. In the majority of accidents on rails, the impact will be fore and aft.
-Hank
Unless you split a switch or derail. Side-impact accidents also occurred on the "B", August 15, 1994, on the "A" on July 3, 1997 and the aforementioned accident on July 15, 1997. Also the Times Square wreck in 1928, the Franklin Shuttle accident of 1974, the Bronx derailment/crash at 180th Street, Dec.29, 1969, and, yes, the Malbone Street Wreck of 1918.
I do however concur fully with your observation regarding the higher probability of rear-end collision. These surely have been more numerous. I don't ever recall a head-on collision, even in the yards.
Our signalling system would never permit it.
Wayne
Wayne,
Are you sure the signals would, in fact, prevent a head-on collision? According to my understanding of the signal system, if the block immidiately following a signal is occupied, the signal should be red, but the trip arm should be down to prevent a train from tripping itself - that is also why a key-by is possible; as the trip arm is usually a bit past the insualted joint for a given block, a train can pass the joint at low speed, thereby "driving" the trip arm before the emergency brakes are tripped. In a head-on scenario, even as the trains got close enough to turn the signals red for each other, as they get close, they will drive down any trip-arms that would prevent them from coliding, thereby making a head-on collision _less_ likely to be prevented by the signal system than a rear-end collision. That is also why it is so unusual for trains to run the "wrong way" on trackage that is signalled for one way operation only.
Regards,
Subfan
< Well, baring the rare type of accident that occured at Union Square, there's really little need for reinforceing the sides of the train. In the majority of accidents on rails, the impact will be fore and aft. ?
But it's the side impact accidents that have been most deadly on the subway. I'm surprised there wasn't an outcry after Union Square,
Thanks for the info on which car was destroyed. I stand corrected.
I have NY Times articles from early November 1918 on the subject that I am planning on transscribing. Given it was the end of WWI, the war got much more coverage. The articles are not here at work with me; I'll check to see the number of casualties they list. I know that the total number of casualties was not from the wreck itself; after power got knocked out, BRT personnel thought it was striker sabotage and restored the power. A number of people were electrocuted trying to escape the wreck. When power shorted out again, BRT personnel figured there was really something amiss and kept the power off.
For other info on the Brighton line, check out the line by line description of the Brighton Line. Of course, any additions or corrections are welcome.
--Mark
According to Cudahy (who apparently has done quite a bit of scholarly research on this disaster), the actual death toll is about 93-94..newspapers of that time (even the Times!) were given to a lot of sensationalism about things like that. He has done a paper on this for the the Transit Museum..i wonder if it is available???
I don't think I would call the difference between 93-94 and 97 as "sensationalism." Ninety-seven is the widely accepted number, although subsequent deaths appear to raise the number in some accounts to 102 or 103,
Mike, thanks for the correction on the year of the Malbone wreck. I was going from the top of my head and couldn't recall if it occurred before or after the worst sea disaster of all time.
[Mike, thanks for the correction on the year of the Malbone wreck. I was going from the top of my head and couldn't recall if it occurred before or after the worst sea disaster of all time.]
Nitpicking isn't my cup of tea, but I'm compelled to stick my $0.02 in here. Presumably you're thinking of the Titanic as the worst sea disaster of all time. It's not even remotely close. At least 6,000 people died when a German refugee ship sank at the very end of World War Two - that's about four times the Titanic's death toll. And no more than ten years ago, over 3,000 died when a Philippine ferry boat collided with a cargo ship.
The German ship was the "Wilhelm Gustloff" a refugee ship torpedoed by the Soviet submarine S13. Over 6000 people went down with the ship. I believe this was the worst single maritime disaster in history.
Larry,RedbirsR33
There was a repeat of the Malbone St Wreck on December 1,1974 when a train of R-32's(deadhead I think)derailed in the same spot.This time there was no loss of life.
Regards,Larry
Almost. The train was revenue, southbound to Prospect Park. Car #3669 split the switch (kind of like what happened on July 14, 1997 on the #2 near President St) and broadsided the curtain wall between the two tunnels. The point of impact was right at the portal mouth. There was a dent about 3.5 feet deep into the right side of the R32, with the attendent buckling of the frame and shearing of steel; I believe it was just ahead of the #2 door. There were four minor injuries. The original #3669 was scrap.
#3668 survived and was renumbered #3669 (and also got a gender change from He to She) so it could M/U with #3628, who lost his spouse near 59th St-Columbus Cir. in 1971. They're still together.
Wayne
... and, quoting Cudahy's footnote in "Under the Sidewalks of NY", the train was travelling "dead slow".
--Mark
Mark,
Yes, if I remember the news accounts of 12-02-1974, they mentioned that the train was going slow, no doubt at the switching speed. Still, that was quite an impact. R32s do not break easily.
Is that book still in print, i.e. maybe the Transit Museum Gift Shoppe at GCT has it?
Thanks,
Wayne
I don't know if "Under the Sidewalks of NY" is still in print, although it was published originally in 1979 and has had two updates since then.
--Mark
From 1878 to 1884, there was a connection between the Franklin Shuttle (then the Brooklyn, Flatbush and Coney Island Railroad, the predecessor of today's Brighton line) to the LIRR Atlantic Ave. branch. Both were still street level steam RR's back then.
When were the LIRR tracks between Atlantic Ave and Nostrand Ave sunk underground? Because if you take the LIRR from Atlantic and look out the front (can only do this on a few trains) you can see an old tunnel swerving away just before the LIRR surfaces at Nostrand. According to my roadmaps that places it right around Franklin Ave.
Interesting observation, particularly since I've heard that the LIRR connection with the Franklin Shuttle -- then the original Brighton Line -- only occurred back when both lines ran at street grade. The FS line never ran underground, so could that tunnel be a long-lost spur of some kind. Maybe the LIRR was planning some kind of north-south running service through Brooklyn much like the old Manhattan Beach branch that was a spur off of the Bay Ridge Line.
Maybe some of the LIRR historians/railfans can help out here?
Doug aka BMTman
I think those spurs off the LIRR Flatbush Line west of Bedford Avenue lead or led to a yard on the south side of Atlantic Avenue, just east of the terminal. They're still visible.
The part of the line that piques my curiosity is the spur that leads from the main line to the abandoned Rockaway branch. This looks like a single-track spur with a 90-degree curve. Was there ever a corresponding spur on the north side of the tracks or was access to the westbound tracks via a crossover switch (there's a space there, so it may have existed at one time). When was the last time this spur was used? I can just picture an ancient train of MP54s groaning and squeaking their way around this curve.
Wayne
No, the spur near Nostrand Ave is dark; i.e., it's sealed off from the surface. The openings for the yard near the Atlantic Ave terminal are still there, but one of them is no longer in use (i.e. the area outside the opening was being used as a truck yard of some sort and tracks through the portal were gone, last I saw).
As for Woodhaven Junction, if my failing memory is correct, the turnout is actually 2 tracks wide. The westbound track crosses over the eastbound at that point. I can't say for certain when it was closed for good, but I suppose it was around '56 or '57, when the line up to White Pot Underjump was closed for good.
For a trackmap of Woodhaven, see the book "Change at Ozone Park". Nice pictures of the line before, during, and after it's conversion.
Andrew...The line from White Pot Underjump was discontinued in June, 1962 ( there was a westbound train to Penn. sta in the AM rush and an eastbound in the PM rush to Ozone Park). I believe they were still using the Woodhaven cutoff for Aqueduct trains from Flatbush Ave. right into the late '50s.
Carl M.
The tunnel along Atlantic Ave. from Flatbush to Nostrand opened in 1905. The short tunnel you can see swerving towards the south was built in anticipation of a connection with the Brighton Line. However, a decision was made to connect the Brighton Line with the Fulton El instead and the connection with the LIRR Atlantic Ave. Line was never made.
To Bob Anderson: the main branch of the Brooklyn Public Library has a copy of a report made by the 'Board of Atlantic Avenue Improvement' in 1907 and supposedly details much of the plans/proposals of the Long Island Railroad's properties along the throufare around that time. I'm hoping those documents will shed some light (maybe even drawings!) relevant to this discussion.
On my next free weekend, I will go done there and check it out.
Doug aka BMTman
There was never a connection between the LIRR Atlantic Abenue tunnel to the Franklin Shuttle, but the tunnel pockets were provided in case such a connection would ever be made.
It is my understanding that the Atlantic Avenue tunnel, through the process of corporate considerations, was actually owned by the BMT and passed to the CIty of New York with Unification in 1940.
Welcome aboard Paul!
I will be doing some research on this subject quite shortly via the Brooklyn Public Library (Grand Army Plaza branch). They supposedly have some documents from 1907 regarding the upgrading/modifications to the LIRR on Atlantic Avenue. Anything I find in relation to the above I will certainly post here.
Hope you stay on board!
Doug aka BMTman
PS Believe it or not I still have one of your "Silver Leaf" booklets!
Hi, Doug,
I usually post to nyc.transit because it's easier to deal with the threads and stay up-to-date but I see there's much more here. Plus, nyc.transit seems to have increasing flame wars and OT threads.
I know very little about Atlantic Ave. LIRR except as it directly related to the BRT/BMT. I'll be interested to see what you find.
BTW, _which_ Silver Leaf booklet? I hope to begin publishing some material again fairly soon (paper and/or electronic), family and income necessities permitting.
You did the Silver Leaf publications? Cool! I just recently acquired one (the first one, maybe) that had the D-Type on its cover. Good info!
--Mark
Mark,
Do you know anyone who has any copies of these to sell?
Haven't seen them, must be great!
Mike H
Mike: Paul also did the definitive history of the Staten Island Rapid Transit back in 1965. That booklet is worth ten times its weight in gold.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Paul: I have to hand Silver Leaf Booklets 2 and 3 as well as "The Third Rail" of Summer 1966. I still find them excellent reference sources. I recall meeting you years ago at ERA meetings.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
PS. I also like Sherlock Holmes stories and particularly "The Case of the Missing Brighton."
I'm junior in high school trying to complete a project. i'm completing a US History project for my class. I want to know what are the average time intervals and velocity for DC Subway (WMATA System)? i'm trying to post this imformation in some type of graph, so if there is some type of information that can be handed to me comtact me at Zhani11@aol.com
Acceleration and deceleration rates for both Rohr and Breda cars are from 0.75 to 3.0 MPH a second.
Maximum speed is 79MPH although automatic train control (ATC) limits it to 75MPH.
Intervals between trains varies from line to line and according to the time of day. I've seen it as long as 12 minutes (on the upper Green Line) and as short as three minutes (on the Blue/Orange during rush hours)
Wayne
I just wanted to let people know that at the Southwest corner of the 8th Street Stop, they are digging up the parking lot because Disny is building a virtual reality place ther and it is suppose to be big. However if you look they have dug very deep and you can see the once visible GIMBELS pillar under the street that is now closed off in the train station. I was told that Gimbels store was once here and that they had their own subway entrance. Just thought I let you Philly Subway buffs now about this.
Jason
I noticed this too. Maybe the entrance will be reopened for Disney(or maybe not) to connect it to the Gallery underground and with the Market East shopping Center.
The old Gimbels site (where Disney is building - former site of the "sinking" parking lot) was leveled over 20 years ago, but the debris was basically left in the basement and covered. The former Gimbels subway store had a short mezzanine under the south side of Market St which led to the 8th St station. There were display windows on this level. This is what is being re-exposed. I'm not sure if Disney will reuse the area, but I do know that Disney is big on transit as a way for patrons to get to the complex (one of the reasons it's being built at 8th & Market).
Did the now boarded-up cross walk lead to this passage way? I can't figure out why they closed the direct-entrance to the Gallery either. Now the only entrance is the Iron Maidens down by the ticket window (or 11th st) I know this staion was mentioned for "Massive Renovations" thanks to Disney... it needs it!
The area I described is on the east side just to the west of the cashier booths. It's been walled off for a long time.
I'm not sure about the crossover. I haven't used the station in a while. I was also puzzled about why the direct entrance to the Gallery is not in use.
I'm not sure how much renovation is possible here. A lot of work was done in the mid-70's, just before the Gallery opened (and Gimbels was demolished).
I had the pleasure of the company of Mr.Simon Billis for most of the day yesterday and we indulged ourselves in a tour of all four boroughs via various lines. We both had a marvelous time. Per Simon's request, we rode as many Redbirds as possible during the day. Outer destinations were: Bronx: Gun Hill Road, Brooklyn: Coney Island-Stillwell and Queens: Main Street.
Here are some excerpts:
Highlights:
* Finished works at 116th Street/Lenox Avenue
* Snow along the Westchester Avenue and White Plains Road IRT lines
* A rocket ride down the 5 Lexington courtesy of #7953
* A visit to GCT and the new NYCT Museum store
* The sight of Coney Island covered in snow
* Watching Q #4314 dust the local D's coming up the Brighton, all from the RF window
* 2 #8888 - a classic fast run from Park Place to Chambers St to 96th Street.
* A nifty trip via 7 express from TS to Main Street in about 25 minutes, with #9440 in the lead. We were about to leave TS and I noticed he was signed up with the round bullet even though announced as express; we knocked on the T/O's door and informed same and the T/O was happy to put up the diamond, and we were thanked for that.
Lowlights:
* S/B Brighton service being diverted to the B line at De Kalb due to a downed D at 7th Avenue and finding out the Q we were on was to run local along 4th Avenue - we jumped onto a D at Pacific St which was sitting there set to run as 4th Avenue express and then we watched the Q dust us from the local track (making local stops to boot!) (It was #4150, the first Slant R40). We were both shaking our heads over the lethargic R68, led by a sleepy #2680.
* The T/O overshot the Jct.Blvd platform by almost a full car length on the 7
* Delay on the E and ensuing confusion as to whether or not we would be diverted down Broadway (we weren't) (F had BIE at 23-Ely)
THEN - adding insult to injury; they couldn't close properly at 5th Avenue and all 2,500 of us were discharged at about 5:40pm. You couldn't have fit a mouse on that platform. The poor conductor couldn't get out of his cab to rectify the door problem in the rear half of the train there were so many people on board. Filthy!
All in all it was a very good day, despite the occasional glitches.
Wayne
Here's my plan: Extend the Q Line under Central Park to meet the IRT at 110th Street. From there it should turn East and stop at 5th Ave, Lexington, and 2nd Ave on its way to La guardia.
There is no way in the world that any subway line will ever be allowed to be built under Central Park again.
Again? What happened the first time?
I assume he means the major disruption at both avenues during the 63rd St work.
Why would they extend the Q to LGA?
They had to tear up a playground area just inside the park between 6th and 7th Aves. which led to a major protest by people who lived near the park and had kids. Since that tends to mean rich people who have kids, the MTA had to promise to restore everything perfectly.
That was was for about a two block area. Try imagining what would happen if you ran a line 2 1/2 miles across the park.
Rich people alway complain and talk too much about thing. That is why i never trust rich people because they don't really care about poor or middle income family.
At least not by cut and cover. Boring, yes. The problem is, you can't improve things for 90% of the people in the city without the other 10% complaining that it hurts them.
-Hank
In today's Daily News, they are stating that service on the F is fully restored. But they said that G service will still be out for awhile until the interlocking is fixed.
www.mostnewyork.com citybeat
I'm glad about the F, but it really is unfair to the G, especially with Willie B going down. If the TA could have locked the G into local service and run the Fs express, that would have been worse for me, but more fair overall. On the other hand, if they couldn't run local and express, this is more fair than extending the G to Church and cutting off the F.
If Bergen St. on the lower level was opened, they could have run the F express all times and had the G local go to Church Ave all times. this would have been the best solution.
The people in brooklyn Heights would then have direct accesss to Manhattan.
I don't think that Bergen St. Lower being open or not was an issue. I'm not sure what the issue was with the G running to Church Ave & the F running express. I thought that the service plan made perfect sense but then we do live in a very political city. I do know that the current G service plan is a logistical nightmare for maintenance and commurers.
They should have spread the pain. The more transit service deteriorates for more people, the more the cry will go out for more transit investment. Which may be the point. No one is listening to G riders anyway. The fewer Brooklyn residents think about the Manhattan Bridge and other subway issues, the better off some people think things are.
Is it really impossible, as some have hinted, to fix the Bergen Street lower level? If the leak is as bad as it sounds, you'd think that the upper level of the station would have been undermined by now, unless the water is coming in from further down. I guess the key is to pinpoint the source of the water, then cut it off (if they can), then go through the arduous task of repairing, retiling, relighting, the whole nine yards. If they DO decide to reclaim this station, I hope they've kept the info (unless NYCT did it themselves) on the party or parties who did the upper level job, which is rather nice, this way the two stations match each other. I don't see this happening right away.
One more thing: Manhattan Bridge observation. Looks pretty much done until you get to the Brooklyn side; then there's a big tarp covering some stuff up, then further down, about 50 yds or so of decking and trackway remain to be repaired/replaced, right before the tunnel portal.
Wayne
Today i saw a work car that standing on the E180st and i look the number plate is RD345. I know it R21 and look like Ex-7345. Also i saw RD349 is Ex-7349?
Not necessarily. R21/22s were selected for work service at random. The cars in the best condition were saved and have since worn yellow paint with black stripes.
If someone here has a list of R Types that were converted to work service (R12s and after), please post it or send to David Pirmann to clear up this mystery.
Regards To All,
Constantine Steffan
It appears to me that the numbering system for the work motors (the RD series) follows its own path, that is, the three digits following the "RD" do not correspond to the last three digits of the unit's former number. RD336, one of the last R15s still running - the R15s had unit numbers from 5953-5999 and 6200-6252. I could be wrong, so if I am, please let me know.
Wayne
BTW - RD stands for Rider Car!!!
Or Rich Dorfman!
Rich Dorfman 336 - That may work ! Any relation to Ken Dorfman?
Or Kent 'Flounder' Dorfman and his legacy brother Fred?
Sorry we are getting pretty off-topic now.
-Dave
Yes, we are off the topic, and I thought the 'Legacy' was behind me!
Kent provided much grief for me years ago!
I believe we do not want to go there.
While taking the long tour through Bergen Street, I did not notice any stairwells leading to the lower level. Can anybody tell me where are they located?
Berger Street has a ladder to go to the lower level or is it an elevator or escalator. Your choice on which one you like.
Why do you need a stairway if it is not used?
If you look at the platforms there are double stainless steel doors. The stairway is behind these doors- There is more than one per platform.
Where @? @ the end or the middle?
There is one set near the 24 hour booth and one or two other sets on each platform--near the ends.
On either side there are very large double doors made of stainless steel which lead to the lower level. Before the Fire, the doors on the Manhattan Bound side were often left open for anyone to go poking around down on the lower level. I was down there about 6 months ago. There is a whole station down there, though poorly lighted and the platform surface needs finishing. While I was down there a train passed through and there were people on it. I never quite figured out what this train was though I expect that it was an F that had been rerouted express, perhapse for spacing purposes.
Before the fire, F's sometimes got backed up 4th Ave to Carroll. Many a time we got the lineup for express tracks to pass F/G's at Smith 9th and Carroll. During the rush F's are scheduled to turn at Kings Highway, I guess they sometimes screw up the timing between the turns at the Highway, the regulars from Stillwell and G trains.
Anybody know what happened when a BART train deraild just south of the 12th stret/Oakland station on December 17th, 1992? I don't think it was a major incident, but derailments are rare on BART.
The train was "wrong-railing" account track work on the nornal southbound track. Leaving 12th Street it derailed on the diverging (normally trailing switch) slamming into the wall separating the diverging tracks.
Actually it didn't derail as the casue of the incident...one of the middle cars of the consist split the switch, and the side of that car hit the wall (as the front half was going toward Lake Merritt, and the rear toward West Oakland). Of course then the rear half of THAT car and the front of the following car derailed.
So, who besides me went to the Transit Museum's Grand Central Gallery and spotted the photo of the Park Ave So trolley tunnel mis-identified as the Lexington IRT? I was told I was the third person to mention it, and the only one not to say 'I remember riding through it...' according to the curator there.
-Hank
I was there today and I saw that picture too. It didn't look right to me now that you mention it, but I wasn't paying close attention.
In the NY Daily News March 18, page 24, and the NY Post March 18, page 10, are articles that the MTA reported on Wednesday March 17 that the subways are dirtier than they were a year ago.
41 percent of subway-car floors and seats inspected from September through December 1998 were grimy, compared to 20 percent during the same period the prior year. Stations are dirter also.
When the good people of Subtalk read the articles, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Daily News:Transit System Slipping,TA Sez
Post:TA Dishes the
Dirt On City's Filthy Subways
When the MTA going to hire more cleaner??? I took the test and I pass it So what are you waitng for MTA? MTA don't know what to do and they hard head. They better not hire welfare to clean the station or buses. They don't belong to MTA.
Well I have recieved bad news. I was informed by a Union REP. that the welfare workers are coming in as cleaners in the mouth of April. Wich is very unfortanite. I remember the last time they were used but were takeing out. I think that was 2 or 3 years ago. The Pelham trains on weekends rolled out with garbage on the floor. Ofcause the people respondsible for the trash on the floor are the slobs that ride the systerm who don't know what a trash can looks like. But it is a slap of the face of all the candidents like your self who passed the Exam and never called and now using Welfare workers who can probably care less if the train leaves clean or filty. I hope I wrong about that part. Also Cleaner don't like this ether even thow some get promoted to Supervisers. Ofcause we can thank 2 people for welfare workers in the subway. Take a guess on who they are and i'll respond later.
David,you need to learn to "Embrace Change". Keep in mind that this was not done in a vacuum. It was done with the willing participation of the Transport Workers Union per the current contract. Let me give you the facts as I know them.
1. Cleaners will not be promoted to supervisors. They will, by seniority and on a completely voluntary basis, be moved into the position of "Lead Cleaner". They will lead a gang of up to seven (7) WEPs. For this, they will be paid at a premium of $1.70 over their current $17+/hour wage.
2. The WEPs and Lead Cleaners will still be supervised by NYCT supervisors.
3. The WEPs will be assigned to terminals at the rate of 3 per car. (For example. 14th St. & 8th Ave. will have 24 per shift.)
4. The WEPs will work 3 days per week and will not receive free transit or benifits.
5. Speculation is that after one year of satisfactory service, the WEPs may be eligable for full time employment.
For the public, this has to be seen as a benifit in that trains will hopefully be cleaner. In addition, it may lead to smaller welfare rolls in the future
For the TWU - income will remain constant as no jobs will be cut.
For the current CTAs (cleaners) this will be a way to earn more money and assume more responsibility.
For you, David, perhaps you'll get a train that is cleaner whenyou get on and customers who smile a bit more for it.
After the best five year growth period in the city's recorded history, guess what? If the same share of New Yorkers were working as in the U.S. as a whole, there would be 600,000 more people employed! 600,000! Many of these are people no one is willing to hire, at least at the minimum wage, by choice. So what do we do with them.
OPTION ONE -- stuff them all in older cities, and pay them a very modest living to go away. This assumes they are less than human, like pets we have to take care of but cannot expect anything in exchange. We did this for a few decades, but once all the unemployables were out of sight in the cities, the people in the suburbs began to resent supporting them.
OPTION 2 -- cut them off, and say all their problems are their fault so you don't feel guilty when they and their children die off. This also assumes they are less than human, that they are like rats. Unfortunately, I live in a city, in a place where the suffering takes place.
OPTION 3 -- if they can't get a job, give them one that requires little skill, and pay them a modest income whether they in fact earn it or not. This assumes that they are people -- we have obligations to them, and we have obligations to us. Maybe a WEP job is the best they will ever do, but it makes them part of the community, and gives their children a chance.
The other good thing about a work requirement is it removes fraud -- you can't show up if you've already got a job, and if you're collecting twice under two different names you can't show up twice.
What about those who could be making $17 per hour doing the same work? My view is, if someone who no one is willing to hire at $5.15 can do a job, then that job isn't worth $17. Five lead cleaners and 20 WEPs are bound to do a better job then five cleaners.
I don't complain about WEPS. If and when they start cutting people off, then I'll complain.
[After the best five year growth period in the city's recorded history, guess what? If the same share of New Yorkers were working as in the U.S. as a whole, there would be 600,000 more people employed! 600,000! Many of these are people no one is willing to hire, at least at the minimum wage, by choice. So what do we do with them.]
There's another way to look at these numbers. If New York's labor-force participation rate were as high as the rest of the country's, the city's unemployment rate - which is high enough to being with - would be truly stratospheric. You'd better believe that would get a lot of play in the national media. It's not hard to imagine that all the resulting negative attention would *hasten* the city's decline. So let's be thankful that so many New Yorkers chose not to even look for work.
Getting back to the WEP cleaners, in my view it's too early to make predictions about the program's effects. It may well be that the whole concept will quietly go away before long. Supervising the WEP cleaners quite likely will be a headache, and coupled with opposition from the existing cleaners (even though their union okayed the deal), things could change soon.
I have seen "community service" in the subway where a CTA (Cleaner TA [Transit Authority]) or supervisor was leading a crew of workers--they were made to clean stations-only they just slowly push the broom doing nothing. I also have been in the booth--they copme up to the booth (from outside the fare control never having been inside) and say " I just got off community service for fare beating and dont have a token, can I go in". I refuse and then -yes, they jump!! and yes, I have had cops who promptly gave them another present.(but there have also been cops that let them go.)
Some WEPs will probably do a good job but many I believe will goof off since they cant get fired.
We can't confuse WEPs with the WARPs. The Work Alternative Restitution Program is the ones wher those cited for minor offenses get to work off their 'time' by cleaning trains, stations or yard perimeters. They start as criminals and the work alternative does little to change their anti-social ways. The WEPs are people who are on welfare and depending on your point of view have had a free ride but will now have to work for their benifits.
BTW - The WEPS are already working in sanitation and it is not the crashing failure people assumed it would be.
(WEPs will goof off because they can't get fired.) Within limits, isn't it true that permanent civil servants can't get fired either?
While it is true that WEPs can't be fired, they will be bounced from the program for non-cooperation. If they are removed from the program they stand to lose their welfare benefits.
Permanent Civil Service Workers do enjoy a significant amount of job protection but it just is not true that they can't be fired. They can be fired for any number of reasons.
In CERTAIN circumstances paid cleaners can be insubordanate and not get fired. If the same TA supervisor who ordered the TA worker to work without safety equipment he cAN refuse the work on safety grounds. Do you think the man on welfare has the number to OSHA in his back pocket? Better yet do you think I as a shop man would lift a finger to protect him at the cost to my own people. Because the man in charge has the power to yank his food stamps without the little protection we have as public officers he will work without lunch and sufficient rest. These welfare workers that I see regularly at 59 Street on the A line platforms have little more than a safety vest. They have improper footware and clothing and some wear sneakers. They aren't trained to flag down trains in an emergency and don't have a flashlight for darkened areas. I see them as a hazard to themselves and others as they perform the work they are ordered to. I don't like the term "goof off" as we are entitled to fair treatment which here at the TA are not receiving here anyway but why make matters worse. You can do anything you like during your breaks so why can't we. The welfare guys don't get a break at all and although I don't like my tax dollars paying for a person to stay at home, I don't like my employer letting anyone who is not qualified or trained to work at my sites......harry
(The don't have flashlights to work in darkened areas and don't have flags to flag down trains). No one is talking about sending them onto the tracks are they?
Are they supposed to do the same kind of work as the "real" car cleaners? If the answer is yes, walking on the tracks to clean a laid up train would indeed require them to walk on the tracks.
Harry: the people you see at 59th Street are not WEPS. They are WARPS. They are there to clean the station and should never need to flag down trains. There is no dress code that I know of for the warps. What shop do you work in where the supervisors ask you to do things that are unsafe?
rapid Transit Operations. Enough said
It seems to me that the WEP workers are victimized by what is really semantic confusion. If they are workers, then they should be receiving paychecks, not welfare checks. They would then be accorded a little more dignity, and would be clearly and unambigusously "employees", which they are, since they are performing work in exchange for money. For the mayor to say that they "are not employees", which he has said, makes no real sense if you analyse it logically. It is deliberately perpetrated semantic confusion.
There are several rasons why they are not considered employees. First of all, if they do not work, their benifits are cut off. However, they still receive a check for the portion that would go to their children. If they were 'employees' and didn't work, their children would get nothing. Second, they do not get any benifits of the job. They get no vacation time but then again, they will only work 3 days per week. Third, they will be doing only a fraction of the work performed by the paid cleaners. Right now I believe the cleaners are getting about $17.50/hr. X 2,080 Hrs. that's $36,400 without overtime and night differental. That's far more than welfare is currently paying so I think it's a bit more that a semantic difference.....
At that rate maybe they'll wake up and get a job thats easier than cleaning that pays more! Or maybe they'll take a Ta test and get of welfare. Bottom line since workfare has been instituted in New York City 250,000 folks stopped receiving welfare. Either they really didn't need welfare, or they were to lazy to work, or they were scamming welfare and receiving checks in New Jersey and Connecticutt
and working off the books.
GOOD RIDDANCE!
There is a key difference between work and workfare. In work, someone is VOLUNTARILY paying the worker a wage equal to or greater than the minimum wage, because the work done is worth at least that much.
Workfare is for people whom no one is willing to hire. Their work is less than the minimum wage in the current economy, but it is not worth nothing. We give them the minimum they need, and ask them to do what they can, while encouraging them to get a better deal when and if they can. Its a good and moral arrangement.
I'm infuriated by "liberals" who object to asking people to work after Billary signed a bill cutting people off from all assistance. Its like asking people to contribute to society is wrong, but cutting them off is not?
Sadly, you are correct. There is a young man who I knew quite well who refused to work at a legitimate job. If there was no angle, there was no interest. He, too, was collecting welfare. When he was threatened with having his benifits for himself cut off if he didn't go for job training, he still refused. His children had little or no food and they had no cloths for school (except through the kindness of relatives). He could have had the cleaner job if he wanted it but he turned it down. I fear that most of the WEPs will fall by the wayside too. If you have no work ethic - you have not the ability to work.
[Bottom line since workfare has been instituted in New York City 250,000 folks stopped receiving welfare. Either they really didn't need welfare, or they were to lazy to work, or they were scamming welfare and receiving checks in New Jersey and Connecticut and working off the books.]
Another possibility is that some of these 250,000 "missing" welfare recipients didn't actually exist. It was not at all uncommon for people to get multiple checks using different names. Scamming of that sort is harder when there's a workfare requirement. Some places, I don't know if New York is among them, also fingerprint welfare recipients to prevent multiple claims. Come to think of it, I can't imagine that New York would use fingerprinting; the Upper West Siders would never allow it.
An amusing example of "disappearing" people concerns the Earned Income Tax Credit. This program provides refundable federal income tax credits to lower-income parents. This proved quite tempting, and many people began claiming the credits for children that didn't exist. College students in particular were reputed to be attracted to this scam. A few years ago, the IRS began requiring taxpayers in the program to provide Social Security numbers for their children. All of a sudden, tens of thousands of children mysteriously "vanished" from existence :-)
Anyway, going back to the issue of using workfare participants for subway cleaners, I'm sticking with my original prediction - supervision and other management problems will be too much of a headache, and the program will be cancelled before long.
(Fingerprinting) Yes, the city did start fingerprinting, and yes lots of people didn't show up. And yes, many claimed that those people would starve because they had been intimidated from seeking help by the Nazi-like procedure. And yes, someone else did claim that people did show up, they just didn't show up twice.
A knowledgable person reports that lots of people are living elsewhere (ie. Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic) and earning welfare here. They obviously aren't showing up for work, so they have been cut off, but not their children ie. they still get most of the benefit. If workfare was applied to the entire case, as in other states, this portion of the caseload would disappear.
That said, I think most of the fraud is gone, and there are still 700,000 people on PA. And I think the reduction of fraud, not an increase in employment along longtime recipients, is responsible for the caseload decline
[(Fingerprinting) Yes, the city did start fingerprinting, and yes lots of people didn't show up. And yes, many claimed that those people would starve because they had been intimidated from seeking help by the Nazi-like procedure.]
Only a Times-reading Upper West Sider could make such a claim with a straight face. After all, your typical welfare recipient is probably quite familiar with fingerprinting :-)
[That said, I think most of the fraud is gone, and there are still 700,000 people on PA. And I think the reduction of fraud, not an increase in employment along longtime recipients, is responsible for the caseload decline]
Any way you look at it, 700,000 people on welfare is a horrifying figure. If you discount the elderly, who get Social Security and therefore don't figure into the welfare equation, we're left with the fact that as many as 20% of city residents are on welfare. And this during a period of nationwide economic prosperity. Even if the workfare program on the subways is a rousing success, which I highly doubt will be the case, the overall impact on the welfare situation will be miniscule. What a comforting thought for a Monday (sigh).
BTW - New York's persistently high unemployment rate merited a mention on the front page of today's Wall Street Journal.
In my previous message I said that as much as 20% of the city's non-elderly population was on welfare. I meant to say 10%, which is bad enough. 20% would be beyond human comprehension.
(700,000 people on welfare is bad enough).
Actually, NY METRO area residents are not more likely to be on welfare than others. But most of the people with the problems are concentrated in NYC. Moreover, they are concentrated in two parts of NYC -- one area covering the south Bronx and northern Manhattan, and another in northern and central Brooklyn.
One solution is for them to move where the jobs are -- you know where. But they are zoned out to the extent possible.
[Actually, NY METRO area residents are not more likely to be on welfare than others. But most of the people with the problems are concentrated in NYC. Moreover, they are concentrated in two parts of NYC -- one area covering the south Bronx and northern Manhattan, and another in northern and central Brooklyn.
One solution is for them to move where the jobs are -- you know where. But they are zoned out to the extent possible.]
Moving is not an easy solution. In the metro area, the biggest concentration of jobs is of course in Manhattan, and the welfare areas you note do have good transit connections to Manhattan. I suppose there is a mismatch between the skill levels of welfare recipients and what Manhattan employers want. There might be more job opportunities in some of the suburban areas, but moving there is a difficult proposition at best. In Long Island, for example, housing is expensive, well beyond the means of former welfare recipients now working at low-skill jobs. Shortages of land for new construction mean that zoning changes are unlikely to translate into widespread availability of cheap housing. Better reverse commuting might help, but it's expensive and the LIRR has little if any capacity to add more revese commuting trains.
That may be true but that decision, I am sure, will be dictated to the MTA by the politicians. I sure don't want workfare people there. It is supposedly a "union shop". That has eroded in recent years by non union private contractors doing shoddy work which the TA maintance forces have to repair. I would be afraid to leave my bag in the crew room while I go to the toilet. I am worried about stealing since they technically are not TA employees and getting piecemeal wages.
Last night I took the F train home to see if it was true that the Bergan Street problems had been solved. At Jay Street the conductor announced that the Next stop would be Carrol Street. I got off and went up to look for the shuttle bus to Bergan but a driver on another bus told me that service to Bergan Street has been restored.
Which one was Lying?
I came in on the F Monday, trains were stopping in both directions at Bergan, let me say F trains. G is still ending at Nostrand with Shuttle Train to Hoyt and A/C to Jay.
I might be going back on the F tonight, I'll see.
The Daily News also reports plans for selling
all the MetroCards online--with no additional charge.
There may also be plans to allow to add value to a
pay-per-ride card online. That would be convenient.MetroCard Set for Net
[The Daily News also reports plans for selling
all the MetroCards online--with no additional charge.
There may also be plans to allow to add value to a
pay-per-ride card online.]
From what I've heard this program exists today in "test mode". There are two groups: Mail-N-Ride Senior or Disabled, also a group of Seniors in NYC (we've seen a group of clergy with these cards).
It requires a special card that the farebox/turnstile can recognize, so your existing value or time card couldn't get this benifit. Can you say E-Z-Pass ?
Thanks for the source, I'll click on the hot spot a look over the article.
Mr t__:^)
P.S. I've read the article ...
- The TA is finally getting around to selling MetroCards to call ins with credit cards, well actually "Citysearch" is doing it for them.
At this "private" we've been doing it for several years. Just let your fingers do the walking to our Token Booth :-)
And in Phoenix, for an even longer time, their modified GFI box would take your credit card right in the box.
- It doesn't sound like the Citysearch service is more then just buying cards online, i.e. the the kind of card I talked about in my previous post ... but that one is realy in test now & is supose to be offered to the general public soon.
Mr t__:^)
I used the Metro Card vending machine at Columbus Circle. Easy and fast but the screen is a bit low for me. One of the two machines were out of service though.
I would by more monthly's if I could charge it. I guess the MTA doesn't want that so the limit CC purchases for now >G<.
This is great. Now I can get the daily pass mailed to me before I go out on railfanning expeditions ..... I don't have to seek out newsstands anymore.
--Mark
This is a post to advise of my new ISP and e-mail:
subwaybuff@earhlink.net
Since I have 60 days, I will be keeping ghr mindspring address for a while.
The reason for the change: Mindspring recently changed access number and login proceedures. Since that time I have had many slow and dropped connections and even system lockups. They also promised free new software. When I decided I wanted the software I was told there would a fee or download the sofware. I am sticking with Dial-up Networking via Netscape. From browsing Deja News, I have noticed others using mindspring are having similar experiences.
Please change address books accordingly.
Test reply for new ISP.
It is : subwaybuff@earthlink.net
Thanks ED!
Your list is great, but you missed an important one: Paul Mazursky's "Next Stop Greenwich Village." It's an autobiographical film set in Brownsville (Brooklyn) and Greenwich Village. It tells the story of a boy who escapes into the larger beat world of the Village (and ultimately California) in the years immediately following WWII. Shelley Winters is memorable as the mother.
Not only does the subway figure in the title, symbolizing the trip from the Brownsville ghetto to the larger world of Manhattan, but the film features several scenes set in the subway, including a memorable scene on the Newkirk Avenue (Brighton Line) station after the main character visits his girlfriend in Flatbush.
A less important film, but still one with a few subway scenes, is "The Amazing Philbert" (I may be a bit off on the title), a stupid story of how a Casper Milquetoast-like character who's been rejected by the Army turns into a fish and becomes a war hero. Don Knotts stars in the title role.
The Don Knotts film is "The Incredible Mr.Limpet" or "The Amazing Mr. Limpet" - I can never remember the right adjectiv.
Yes, the list seems to have a ways to go.
If I recall, the film THE WIZ (1975?) (Another Sydney Lumet Movie with a subway) has a sequence in the subway where the support pillars come to life and attack Dorothy.
> Yes, the list seems to have a ways to go.
Relax. I'm sorry I couldn't have listed them all off the top of my head.
-Dave
There is another film. "It Could Happen to You". There is not much subway content but there is a scene where the cop and waitress buy tokens and give everyone a free ride.
Actually- this could not be done because we can only sell 50 (fifty) tokens to a customer. Therefore they copuld have only bought 100 between them.
One of my all time favorite films that features subway/elevated
footage, although not of the New York subway, is "Streets Of Fire"
(1984), which features many scenes on and under Chicago's "L",
including a train pulling in/out of a subway station. Most of the
trains in Streets Of Fire were the 6000 series.
The street scenes under the Chicago L in the film "Streets of Fire" were actually shot on a soundstage. The El columns were props, made to resemble the latticed columns on the 63rd Street (Jackson Park) branch. There was some authentic footage of 6000 series L cars however in the film.
That's Hollywood for you. I have yet to see a film with complete subway authenticity, and I suppose there is no such animal.
In 1993, why were all the IRT R-62s built by Kawasaki coupled
into 5-car linked units with controllers removed on all non-operating
cabs? Why were the operating cabs opened to full-width? Also which
5 cars were destroyed in the August 29th, 1991 Union Square wreck?
Why the R-62s and R-62As never intermix in passenger service?
I found out that there are higher numbers after 7 on most of
the roll signs of the R-62s and R-62As. What will the 8, 10, 11, 12,
13 and 14 signs be used for? Which lines will these be? What color
are these signs?
James Li
In 1993, why were all the IRT R-62s built by Kawasaki coupled
into 5-car linked units with controllers removed on all non-operating
cabs? Why were the operating cabs opened to full-width? Also which
5 cars were destroyed in the August 29th, 1991 Union Square wreck?
Why the R-62s and R-62As never intermix in passenger service? Some
R-62As were tested on the IRT #7 line, but why were they sent back
to the main IRT lines after a few months?
I found out that there are higher numbers after 7 on most of
the roll signs of the R-62s and R-62As. What will the 8, 10, 11, 12,
13 and 14 signs be used for? Which lines will these be? What color
are these signs?
James Li
In 1993, why were all the IRT R-62s built by Kawasaki coupled
into 5-car linked units with controllers removed on all non-operating
cabs?
Economies of scale. Less expesive to maintain.
Why were the operating cabs opened to full-width?
I presume for one person train operation (OPTO).
--Mark
As many of you know by now I collect MetrCards.
Our Station Agent friend told of a new card avail Mon. 3/15.
Well based on difficulty in getting "The Ferry Boat" card my friend upstairs & I were modivated to stop by a Token Booth this week to get one of the new cards.
Yesterday I came into possesion of a liquadated one of these MSG/MetroGuide cards. It's a $15 pre-valued that was already discarded by the customer, today I acquired two more ... interesting.
Personally I would initially put more dollars on the card & be willing to fill it up several times vs. throwing it out, BUT if it went to zero, I would have to buy a new one because Station Agent policy is NOT to re-fill zero cards. So, does the TA know so many cards a tosed out so quickly & do they care ... probally not.
Just doing a little thinking out loud ...
Mr t__:^)
because Station Agent policy is NOT to re-fill zero cards
It is? I'm sure I've had MetroCards with 0 on them refilled ....
--Mark
I heard that the R-26s, R-28s, R-33s and R-36s will soon become
history. When will these cars be replaced? Will this happen when the
new R-142s arrive? Why did the IRT #2 and #5 lines swithced cars some
time in the 1995? Which lines are these cars operating on? For a
brief time in 1991-1994, why did the IRT #7 line borrow the R-33 cars
from the IRT #5 line in the Bronx?
I am trying to figure out which (if any) of the current NYCT lines --besides the original Culver route belonged to the LIRR at some point in the early part of this century.
I thought that the Canarsie (L Train) and the Brighton Line were either partly owned or shared rights-of-way with the Long Island. What's the deal?
I'm not sure if the Brighton shared the ROW with the LIRR in the ownership sense of the word. The LIRR, however, was right NEXT to the Brighton line.
--Mark
The section of "B" Subdivision trackage in the Rockaways belonged to the LIRR. The A and Rockaway Shuttle run there now.
On transit/LIRR joint routes, wasn't there service from Chambers St. (Nassau) via Broadway-Brooklyn and Jamaica (beyond Eastern Parkway on Fulton St, with a change of third-rail shoes) to Rockaway?
There was also a connection from Atlantic Avenue onto the Fifth Avenue el, but I've never really understood what service, if any, used it and whether it operated to Sands St. or Park Row.
I don't have the book on the Sea Beach handy, but was there joint trackage in Bay Ridge down to the boat landing before they built the open cut? (Sea Beach service operated via the West End on the ground coming from Park Row and Fifth Avenue, splitting at 62nd Street, but I think there was also service from the waterfront where the LIRR and the Brooklyn Army Terminal are now--I know I'm using old names.)
Was there ever joint trackage or operation with streetcars on any of the LIRR routes (like Atlantic Avenue before the elevated was built)? The BRT had joint streetcar/elevated service on places like Gravesend Avenue (later renamed McDonald).
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
<< Was there ever joint trackage or operation with streetcars on any of the LIRR routes (like Atlantic Avenue before the elevated was built)? The BRT had joint streetcar/elevated service on places like Gravesend Avenue (later renamed McDonald). >>
In 1898 there was joint LIRR/Brooklyn Union Elevated (the BUE became part of the BRT)service with each company operating trains over the other's tracks. The track connections were near the Brooklyn-Queens County line (between the LIRR Atlantic Branch and the BUE Broadway Line), near Chestnut Street. The LIRR and BUE also added a turning loop at the Rockaway Park Station in 1899 to handle BUE steam trains running joint equipment from Rockaway to the BUE terminal at Broadway ferry, in Williamsburgh.
From 1898 until 1928, the LIRR also owned a subsidiary trolley company that operated between Far Rockaway and Neponsit (west of Rockaway Park - approximately B. 145th St). This was the Ocean Electric Railway, whose cars shared the LIRR tracks between Hammels and Far Rockaway. A third LIRR track was built to accommodate the trolleys, which were equipped for third rail and overhead wire operation. Running on the shared LIRR tracks, the cars used the third rail. Between 1926 and 1928 this operation was terminated.
Some information on Joint LIRR/Elevated and Subway Service can be found on the Internet at http://www/.pipeline.com/~robertwa/joint.html
Some information on Joint LIRR/Elevated and Subway Service can be found on the Internet at http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/joint.html (correction)
TO ANY AND ALL STATION AGENTS; AT WHAT TIME (THE NEXT DAY),EXACTLY, DOES THE CARD READER GO TO "TIME EXPIRED, FARE LEFT O.OO.? IS IT AT 12;00, 12:01, OR LATER? PLEASE SPECIFY.. THANKS A LOT>
Your friend & mine, George Pataki, didn't like the MetroCard turning into a Punkin at Midnight so he's given you a couple more hours of grace period ... I'm serious.
Mr t__:^)
IF it is a fun pass it is at 3am. ANy other unlimited the time is midnight.(0000) according to the official bulletins
Hey I thought MidNight didn't exisit??
Train time tables never have a train leaving at 0000. Alway 1201. >G<
But Yah every unlimited except funpass exires at Midnight, I actualy had a change for an informal test one night. Fun Pass is 0300.
The MetroCard rules are getting worse then the IRS :-(
e.g. why do they need to keep all those transfer "rules", i.e. you can transfer between this and that route, but not this and that one.
With the Unlimited card, that gives you free transfer to any route, it just doesn't seem to make since any more. AND give bus riders a break that pay cash ... let them transfer to the subway ?
Mr t__:^)
Earthlink crashed. STicking with mindspring
please continue to use: subway-buff@mindspring.com
Seems like the regular SubTalk folks know alot about scrapped NYCT cars. How about LIRR cars? I see two sets of two cars alongside the Babylon line just south of the Hillside Maint. Complex. One looks slightly smashed in the front, the other looks like it was on fire, maybe on the inside. Does anyone know what happened to these cars?. By the way, I don't post many messages but try read them just about everyday. The amount of info that is given out is fantastic, keep up the great job. I love finding out how things got the way they are and how they work, and this has been a great source. Thanks.
Rich, Add a bookmark for www.lirr.org and
http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/lirr.html
I know of several LIRR commuter coaches that were sitting out on the Cross Harbor RR property over at Bush Terminal about a month ago (Exact locale of cars was 1st Ave at 50th Street). Most of the cars had a spray-painted message on the sides "No Brakes" as a warning to the train crew.
They were being readied for shipment to the mainland via float barges. Thereafter they would be turned into scap metal (maybe for future subway cars or LIRR equipment). I'd assume these cars were being retired due to the arrival of the new double-decked cars on the LIRR Mainline.
The first two Dual-Mode Locos have finally been delivered and are currently residing at Morris Park Yd. EMI testing was to begin today and road testing will begin next week. Looks like I've wrangled at least one ride........
Steve, I don't understand this ... what are those engines in front of the bi-levels that have been running on several LIRR lines for some time now ? I thought they were dual-modes that the elect part wasn't working. Did they buy some new diesel onlys & some dual-modes to replace the FAs ?
Mr t__:^)
Where will the dual-modes be used?
[Where will the dual-modes be used?]
Definitely on the Port Jefferson line, maybe Montauk and Oyster Bay.
All the diesel lines that extend beyond the end of the elect., i.e. they are going to replace the FA-2s.
Mr t__:^)
They have standard locos with head-end power for LIC-East service, Jamaica-East service and Huntington-Port Jeff service. The dual-modes are for Port Jeff and Oyster Bay to Penn Station direct service.
The orginal new Engines were not dual modes, they were just to replace existing engines. LIRR is still unsure of how much to invest in Dual Mode operation (IMHO).
The current 'new' locos, DE-30AC are single mode diesel electrics that replace the GP-38 and the 'F' units. The dual mode, DE-30DM are designated as such because they will operate on their own internal diesel power or directly from 3rd rail current. They will likely serve the Port Jefferson, Oyster Bay and Montauk branches, providing direct service to Penn Station.
[The current 'new' locos, DE-30AC are single mode diesel electrics that replace the GP-38 and the 'F' units. The dual mode, DE-30DM are designated as such because they will operate on their own internal diesel power or directly from 3rd rail current. They will likely serve the Port Jefferson, Oyster Bay and Montauk branches, providing direct service to Penn Station.]
Of course, if LIRR riders weren't too lazy to walk ten feet across the platform at Jamaica/Huntington/Babylon, there'd be no need for the dual mode locomotives.
<< Of course, if LIRR riders weren't too lazy to walk ten feet across the platform at Jamaica/Huntington/Babylon, there'd be no need for the dual mode locomotives >>
I'm not so sure it's laziness, Peter. It makes economic sense. No need for a changing at Huntington means less equipment needed (transfer the MUs to other runs), lower train staff requirements (no need for a connecting M-1/2/3 train to meet every diesel train), etc.
Agreed. Much as I dislike snob appeal transport, commuter rail riders do have longer rides, and do pay more for them. If you spend three hours a day on a train, you need to eat breakfast/read newspaper/get sleep there. That's easier if you're riding all the way in.
It is not laziness, it is you have to give up your seat on one train and maybe not find one or get a lousy seat on another. Don't have your hope so high, Penn Station is over capacity. Don't think all those trains from the non-electrified lines will go into Penn Station. And those that do, will be overcrowded, as illustrated by MidTown Direct Trains on the ex-Erie Lackawanna lines.
[It is not laziness, it is you have to give up your seat on one train and maybe not find one or get a lousy seat on another.]
Most diesel trains are pleasantly uncrowded as things stand now. Not only are you certain to find a seat, in many cases you can get to sit next to the perfect seatmate - an empty seat. That's critically important because the LIRR's existing seats, with the notable exception of the new bilevels, are too small for human beings. I consider the miniscule inconvenience of changing trains at Jamaica vastly preferable to being jammed in an electric train, even if I have to stand for the Jamaica - Penn leg.
Thanks for the update Steve, Mr IND. In the back of my mind I thought I remembered something about two versions of the DE-30 when I posted my question. I've saved a copy of your answer so I won't forget.
Mr t__:^)
Has anyone noticed how bad subway trains smell?
On SEPTA's MFL, the M-3's seem to trap the greatest and most disagreeable odors.
I know the 'E' is NYC's dirtiest line, but is it also the smelliest?
I studied the Chicago EL train at http://www.nycsubway.org/chicago/
and i found that each car has 8 pretty signal lamps on its front window. 4 on left window and 4 on right window.
it seems "green-green" on Lake line southbound train
and "orange-orange" on Lake line northbound train
"red-orange" on Midway train and
"green-red" on Ravenwood train. On Evanston Express, i don't know.
If anyone knows, why these lamps lies there (do switch operators use it?) and how it appears on other lines (for example, Evanston express)
, please mail me...
Thanks (for reading my strange English).
These lights and a similar system on the older equipment of the Illinois Central Electric Commuter trains was useful for identifying the train you wanted while waiting on a crowded platform served by several lines.
Yes, I do know about the “classification” lights used on the CTA. I’ve been living in Chicago since 1996, but have been riding the CTA on visits to the city since early 1970’s.
These lights are intended for “reading” by tower operators who effect the proper routing at junctions, however, most regular riders know how to interpret these combinations of lights to determine the destination of a train before the roll signs can be recognized. The classification lights are green/yellow/red/white. The combinations and their destination are listed below. Of course, the RED/RED lights are used for marker lights on the rear of a train.
The operator sets up the lights when he trims up his cab before departure from the terminal. There is a grid in the cab of each car that shows destination and classification lights to be displayed.
I’ve already written about this to a friend in a letter so I’ll reproduce it for you below:
Blue Line To O'Hare Yellow/Yellow
Runs originating at Rosemont Terminal use the 100 series.
Blue Line To Forest Park Yellow/Yellow
Runs originating at Forest Park Terminal use the 200 series.
Blue Line To 54th/Cermak Green/Green
Runs originating at 54/Cermak Terminal use the 300 series.
Brown Line To Loop or Kimball Green/Red
Brown Line Kimball - Belmont shuttle Yellow/Red
Belmont - Kimball return Green/Red
Runs on the Ravenswood branch use the 400 series.
Purple Line To Loop White/White
Purple Line Linden - Howard shuttle Yellow/Red
Runs on the Evanston Line use the 500 series.
Green Line To Harlem/Lake Yellow/Yellow
Green Line To 63rd/Ashland Yellow/Yellow
Green Line To 63rd/Cottage Grove Green/Green
Runs on the Green Line use 001 and 600 series.
Orange Line To Loop or Midway Red/Yellow
Runs on the Midway Line use the 700 series.
Red Line To Howard or 95/Dan Ryan Yellow/Yellow
Runs originating at Howard Street use the 800 series and runs originating at 95th use the 900 series.
Yellow Line To Dempster or Howard Red/Yellow
The Skokie uses the 590 series for run numbers.
In the days of A/B skip-stop service, service sorely missed by the Chicago rider, a YELLOW/YELLOW denoted an ‘A’ train making the A-station stops. A GREEN/GREEN denoted a ‘B’ train making B-station stops.
I hope that this explanation is helpful to you. If you wish more information on CTA rapid rail transit post a note and I’ll try to answer your questions.
If you are very interested in CTA rail news and historical material on the three Chicago Interurbans, the North Shore, the Chicago, Aurora & Elgin, and the South Shore, you may be interested in subscribing to First & Fastest. It is published four times a year. One-year subscription is $20.00, and well worth the money. Each issue contains 32 to 40 pages packed with historical and current event materials.
Contact the Shore Line Interurban Historical Society at:
First & Fastest
P O Box 368
River Grove, IL 60171-0368
One addition: When Ravenswood trains (Brown Line) ran A/B skip stop
service, "A" trains were red/green and "B" trains were green/red.
In other words, this is Chicago's version of marker lights. In a way, it's too bad they're no longer used in New York. Only the Redbirds still have them, and they're almost always set to red-red. I never paid any attention to them during my days as a Saturday commuter, which I regret now.
BTW, although I have seen these light combinations in Chicago, I haven't paid attention to them, either. What can I say?
Thanks for your comment, david, Jim K.
These comments are of interest and very helpful to me.
As a result of my consulting to the Loop area track map,
it seems these classification lights are not a sort of sign that
each element of the lights are associated with centain switch
of the junction (tower?).
i.e. tower operator effects a switch when he saw a certain light
of 8 is on.
now, i'd like to ask one more question,
Blue line and red line train seems to once used to enter the loop
and there was the another tower at west of La Salle-Van Bulen Sta.
Can anyone tell me, how was the track map of that area?
http://nsn.nslsilus.org/graham/transit/CTA/history/ This URL will lead to some useful information. Operations on the Loop have been chaned many times in the almost one hundred years of operation. As example the color designations for the routes were adopted in the 1980's
Is anybody from Sub-Talk going on the Philly trip on April 18th?
I'm looking forward to it and hope we have a sunny, warm day.
I'll be there with my "New -El" blue tee shirt on!
Chuck(I love mass transit) Greene
I've got my ticket for the 18 April Philadelphia trip. But I'm not sure what I'll wear that's transit-y enough. I've got a month to work on it, though.
8-)
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I, along with Mr. Alfonsin, will be attending the 4/18 three car charter.
I will be wearing a blue cap with a Reading Lines diamond and MANY transit/railroad pins displayed.
I will be representing the Chicago railfan community, however, until 1996, I lived in the Philadelphia area all my life. My apartment was within sight of the Reading Company North Wales station.
For those of us not in the know, could you provide details of the trolley trip on April 18th? Thanks.
--Mark
Peter Witt#8534, a PCC #2168 & a Kawasaki LRV will be the three cars.
Trip starts at 11am , ends at 4 pm. Further Details from :
MWNTROLLEY@aol.com - (Matt Nawn). Matt will be glad to E-Mail you the details. Cost of trip-$35.00 - includes hoagies & sodas (can you tell we hail from Philly?)
Chuck Greene
Those from New York Metropolitan Area: if enough people sign up, there will be a bus chartered to get us there. It will be a lot cheaper and hassle free for all in the long run. Just let Matt know to put you on that list and if it works out, I'm sure he'll steer you to the person coordinating the bus.
My high school band in Jersey used to sell hoagies as a fund raiser. It's funny how essentially the same sandwich has different names in different parts of the country. AFAIK, they're known as heroes only in New York City. And in New England, they're called grinders.
Actually in Boston, they're "subs."
Just like a trolleybus is not a trolley, nor a bus, but a "cah."
I stand corrected. Maybe it's only in Connecticut that they're known as grinders.
I know it's off topic, but here in Phila there are several varieties of sandwich which are very similar:
- Hoagies - basically a baked roll full of lunchmeat (is that a Phila term also?), cheese, tomato, lettuce and onion. Some will tell you that true hoagies have no lettuce. Others will say that you must add oil. Still others will swear by mayonnaise as the condiment of choice. If you really want to get adventurous, put both mayo and oil on it and get something to catch the grease. Allegedly these were the sandwiches introduced by Italian immigrant workers at the old Hog Island shipyard during World War I - the term allegedly derived from "hoggie".
- Subs - in some outlying parts of the Phila area, hoagies are also known by this term.
- Zeppelins (or zeps) - hoagies were called this around the Norristown area northwest of Phila.
- Grinders - a hoagie that's been toasted or heated in a pizza oven such that the cheese melts. Not quite a stromboli.
I was in the Cincinnati area over 20 years ago and saw a Philadelphia hoagie on the menu at a theme park. Imagine my surprise when it was described to me as a meatball on a hot dog bun!
That other great Phila invention, the steak sandwich, is also getting duplicated around the country. I was out west this past summer and found a "Steak Escape" outpost that sold what I know as a "steak hoagie" (the steak meat on a sandwich with tomato, lettuce, onion and possibly mayo) which was passed off as a Phila steak sandwich. Of course, can you trust a chain that has sprouts as an optional condiment?
Last thought - if you're going on the trip and want a grinder, take your hoagie onto the PCC and sit near the heater. Those things will melt anyone or anything and the lowest setting always seems to be "roast"!
Actually a Zep is a hoagie on a round Italian roll with everything BUT lettuce. It is a Norristown area thing. I grew up in the area and everytime I get back to Pennsylvania I always make sure I get a hoagie.
The stuff they sell here in Chicago is NOT of hoagie quality.
The real problem is that a hoagie or cheese steak must have the base of a good Italian roll. No other bread cuts it.
They try to use French bread out here in Chi-town, the result is horrible.
Can't wait to get my hoagie on the 4/18 trip!
I've heard grinder used in Rhode Island too...I'd never call it that. To me, it will always be a hero. Wish I could make the trolley trip on the April 18th and get to enjoy a nice hoagie but getting to Philly from NE Connecticut is a task in itself with no train and inconvenient Bonanza bus service. Maybe there's still time...
Having grown up around Philly it was always a hoagie, and I haven't found any place up here that makes 'em likes I remembers 'em from down there. Up here where I live now (Jersey City NJ) it's mostly "sub" or "hero" but with the generally non-native-English-speaking bodega delis around here, you want a sandwich like that, you have to call it by its local name. I usually call it a hero but at the same time "mime" the shape of the roll when I order. :-)
You usually find when you travel and someone tries to mimic a Phila steak sandwich or hoagie that the real secret is in the roll (or, as some here say it, the "bread"). I've talked to owners of Philly shops in San Francisco and Portland who have expressed the same dilemma. They can't get local bakeries to supply the right kind of roll - if it isn't too much like a soft bun, it turns out too much like a croissant. The Phila bakeries have trouble shipping the real thing since the rolls don't have preservatives (you learn this the hard way if you keep them around for longer than two or three days!). Even Philly Mignon, which was all over the place in NYC a few years back, couldn't duplicate the roll just right.
Isn't it the truth about italian rolls. We have a steak shop out here in Chicago that is called "Philly Steaks". The owner is from Upper Darby. She even admits that she can't get the right rolls to duplicate the "real cheese steak".
But, the people out here are buying them and liking them.
BTW, when I moved here in 1996, this shop was the only place I could get Butterscotch Krimpets by Tastykake. However, the Jewel Food chain is now carrying the almost complete Tastykake line.
Althoug I don't regret moving to the Windy City, I do miss a real cheese steak, a hoagie, and Tastykakes.
Ah, yes, Tastykakes. Living in Baltimore (as well as growing up there) Tastykakes were (and are) part of daily life. I had relatives who left Baltimore for places like Cleveland and Atlanta - where Tastykakes are not to be found. My Aunt & Uncle (Cleveland) used to go over to the regional warehouse on Erdman Avenue and buy cases to go back to Ohio.
On the subject of Philly Steak Hogies (subs), a local sub joint here has managed to get the local H&S Bakery to duplicate the proper roll. H&S also mamaged to get a lot of Philadelphia business, as well as producing the rolls for MickeyD's all over the Mid-Atlantic.
As for the April 18 trip: I'd love to go, but I get to put on a blue uniform and run streetcars that day. If anybody can figger out a way to be in two places at the same time, sign me up!!
[As for the April 18 trip: I'd love to go, but I get to put on a blue uniform and run streetcars that day. If anybody can figger out a way to be in two places at the same time, sign me up!!]
No, I can't help you out there. But, if you can't make the trip on 18 April, running streetcars sound like an OK second!
I forgot to mention that in addition to the blue uniform, I also get to enjoy a visit from Freddy Perez (Mr.Mabstoa), who has a soft spot for a certain Museum in Baltimore.
It will be a busy weekend for us. I will be taking both my sons on the LIST LIRR trip Saturday 4/17 and my oldest on the Philly Three Generation Trip Sunday.
Wow - You are busy! That takes great stamina to make two trips in just (2) days. I'm 57 years old and nobody in my family ( my son is 26 and in Maryland) or my wife enjoys my hobby! I was hoping to chat with some "Subtalk" people on the ride. Looks like by the responses to my original post there are many going. See you on the
18th.
Chuck Greene
The only reason I'll be able to do it is because the LIRR trip ends at 6 PM, so we'll have a good nites rest.
On my return to JFK Airport after another superb subway tour gratfully enhanced by the guidance of Wayne Whitehorne,about half a mile from the terminals I noticed a large blue sign which appeared to read "Airtrain" (or something like that) on the side of a contruction hoarding. Is here goinb to be a rail link to the Airport? The sign also showed a track style logo.
I assume that's the new light rail line the Port Authority announced several months back which received much controversy. It's supposed to connect each of the individual terminals at JFK with the Jamaica Station of the LIRR and the J/Z and E lines, mainly via the Van Wyck Expressway. A branch will also serve the long-term parking lot and the A line station at Howard Beach. I forget the timetable for construction, but there continues to be some opposition to it for numerous reasons, particularly because it will not provide a one seat trip from Manhattan to the airport.
Airtrain isn't really going to be a subway at all - sort of a light rail vehicle on an elevated track, running right down the Van Wyck Expressway. It's a boondoggle. You won't be able to get a one-seat ride to Manhattan. The best you can hope for is to get off Airtrain at Jamaica Station and then cart your luggage round to the LIRR platforms (there are no escalators to these) then spend between 20 minutes and a half hour travelling to Penn Station.
While I love all things rapid transit, this is a dopey idea. They should have done it right long ago, reusing the LIRR Rockaway Branch between JFK and White Pot Jct. in Rego Park for a one-seat ride to Penn Station. But there are the NIMBYs out there, bless their pointed little heads. Pfooey!
Wayne
Some of the published reports say that the Airtrain system is supposed to be compatible with Subway or LIRR in the future.
No way. There is no place for a driver.
Airtran is automatically run, so it can't interchgange with the LIRR. Yet another brilliant move by the PA...
Actually, the M-1s had ATO equipment in them, though it never was used. They also had water fountians, passenger release (you pressed a button to open the door to get in/out, presumeably for cold weather), 100mph capeability, roll signs in front and who knows what other bells an whistles (heh) that were never used, or disconnected. I notice there looks to be provisions for rollsigns, or something, on the sides of the cars. Anyone kow what these were supposed to be for? Heck, anyone have a listing of all the unused features of these cars? I've heard rumours they had crude traction control / antilock brakes on them too...
There WILL be escalators and elevators between the Airtrain and LIRR platforms (as well as stairs).
I will believe it when I see it. I am no fan of Air Train.
Wayne
Wayne, you haven't had to make the subway-shuttle bus connection lately. I went out last Wednesday afternoon to JFK and came back in at 5:15 this morning. Miserable! The worst part, however, was the outbound run on Wednesday. I (and a bunch of other folks) got off at Howard Beach and headed upstairs to cross over to the inbound side to exit for the shuttle when a herd of doughnut-eaters sent us out through the token booth over the tracks for a block ticket. Seems we were the last passengers that would be getting off at Howard Beach, regardless of direction, for a while - there was a "suspicious package" that had been abandoned in the passageway on the inbound side. We were told it would be two or three hours until we could cross; in the meantime, no trains were stopping in either direction so we couldn't even get on a train to anywhere and try for alternative transportation to the airport. There was a small cab office with three cabs there; the pushiest folks got the cabs while the remaining eight or ten of us waited. Only two of us were actually desiring a cab; the other passenger, besides myself, was a young (OK, younger than me) Negro businessman trying to get a 5 PM flight (mine was at 5:55 PM). When the cabs returned, the dispatcher told us he wasn't going to go to the airport again, as he had local calls to deal with - even though, for the next 15 minutes, all three cabs sat there. The Negro gentleman finally left on foot, hoping I guess to find a cab elsewhere; as soon as he was out of sight, the dispatcher came out and announced that cabs to the airport were now available. I did take one, but felt rather guilty at the blatant discrimination shown by the dispatcher. The driver got the last laugh on the dispatcher, however - he stopped around the corner and picked up two other fares, and told the dispatcher he had only picked up one (pocketing, no doubt, the extra cash).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm glad I don't have to get into that pitfall, as I don't fly much. My friend Simon, who lives in the UK, used it on his recent trip and was quite properly displeased with how it "worked". In London, they have not only a direct LU connection with Heathrow, but a one-seat, non-stop express train (British Rail) leading directly to downtown Paddington Station. Why we can't reuse the former LIRR Rockaway branch is simply beyond me. These guys lack the will to act in the general public's better interest.
Wayne
Next time try Green Bus's Q10. You can get it right in the airport & it goes North, basically on Lefferts Blvd. You can then catch the A at Lefferts or continue up & catch the J/Z at 121st St or the F at Union Tkp. There'll be a lot of other folks on the bus, so if you have a lot of bags maybe it's not the way to go.
I would guess it will take about 1/2 hour to get from the airport to the A at Lefferts.
Mr t__:^)
That sounds about right. I took the Q10 a few times back in the mid-80s from Union Turnpike to JFK, and it was perhaps a 45-minute ride.
I hope this doesn't sound too picky. In your post you mentioned that there is a one seat ride from Heathrow to London provided by British Rail. Unfortunately, British Rail ceased to exist several years ago when the Tory government sold of their operations to about 50+ independant rail companies now operating on rails owned by RailTrack (PLC). Having so many diferent companies is a complete nightmare from the consumer perspective because where once you could buy one ticket now you need several and no one ticket office seems to have a clue about how much a journey should cost (I once went to 3 different windows at Victoria and was quoted 3 diferent prices for the same journey.) And no, there has been little competition to reduce fares. Britian now has some of the highest fares in europe.
The one seat ride from Heathrow is on Heathrow Express which I think was mostly privately funded. I'm shocked that in the land of Capitalism we can't seem to figure out how to do this.
It's also worth noting that not only Heathrow has a one seat (15 minute) ride to Central London. Gatwick also has an express (30min) and there is local rail service to Stanstead (~1hr).
I think everyone is confused about privatisation. The fares system is a nightmare. Whilst there is only one ticket office they are obliged to offer the lowest fare for the journey made as well as the alternatives at least I think that is the official position. Birmingham to London has I believe four train companies offering four lowest fares. This applies to many routes. Rail fares are expensive. The normal return fare from my home town of Swindon to Paddington London is now £50.00 the distance is 77 miles. Fares booked by telephne direct with the train company and paid for in advance are usually cheaper.
Simon
Suppose they were to run slant R-40s? (hypothetically)
Well, that would be interesting; but they aren't proposing a heavy-rail system here, more like a light-rail (or monorail) system, incompatible with the LIRR and NYCT systems. That's part of the reason that it is such a boondoggle. There is no compatibilty.
Wayne
[They should have done it right long ago, reusing the LIRR Rockaway Branch between JFK and White Pot Jct. in Rego Park for a one-seat ride to Penn Station.]
Waynes' point is right on for more then one reason:
- The first part of the project runs the line around the airport then to the long term parking lot, right next to IND/A Howard Beach Stn.
- Phase II, the part that the NIMBYs are still jawing about, goes up the Van Wyke to Jamaica.
- It would make much more since to go to the long term parking, then continue up the old LIRR Rockaway ROW to White Pot Jct where you join the LIRR main line that goes to Penn. The only thing you MIGHT have to add is a station on the main so LI LIRR customers could catch the train.
Mr t__:^)
This project is possibly the biggest waste of money I have seen!!!
No one will use it
BUT once they get tracks laid, they can be upgraded, extended, etc.
It's a start. Other then that I agree with you !
Mr t__:^)
I must say it should beat that bus ride around JFK to Howard Beach which seems to take ages.
I disagree. I, for one, will use it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All I know is that I'll have my one seat ride to Newark LONG before I get one to JFK. And that will sway my flight/airport choice along with many others to New Jersey.
Well OK, it's a 20 min ride and then a quick ~1 mile monorail trip - but it's still way better than the AIRTRAIN design.
I think the Newark Airport station is scheduled to be completed in 2002.
In the mean time, I'll have to settle on enjoying fast airport rail connections in other cities like London. I'm looking forward to a trip on the Heathrow Express next Friday!
As an x-Staten Islander, EWR was the airport of choice. You got in out much quicker than JFK or LGA. Only problem was when CO pushed, since Continentail Airlines has a major hub there, planes are all scheduled to leave it a big group as pax make connections. This caused me to be number 25 for take off one time. And this was during Dual Runway operations (Both Parallel runways were in use, one for arrival, one for departure). Forget if the weather goes belly up and they are down to one runway. Out side of that, I would choose Newark over the other two airports, and might switch to it (now living in Brooklyn) once there is better/faster public trans to it.
Hopefully, Continental won't pull a fast one on Newark and pull out the way they did in Denver. That's a long story in itself, but that's what I think of whenever I hear Continental mentioned. After they pulled out, United jacked their fares, since they no longer had to compete for passengers and now have a virtual monopoly in Denver.
Sorry I got off the subject. Getting back to JFK, if only the IND Van Wyck line had been built way back when... It could have been extended a bit further to the airport.
I hope you have saved up for the fare. $16.00 one way makes it more expensive than Concord. Have a nice time here in England.
Simon
All public transit is way more expensive in London than NY with the exception of very short bus trips. I always plan on paying through the nose for most things when I go there. Anyway, it's a vacation so I can treat myself.
On the other hand the $4.00 Suttle bus from Newark Penn Station to the airport is even more expensive on a per mile basis than the Heathrow Express. And I'd rather pay $16 for a 100 mph ride to central London than $4 for a painfully slow one through the potholes of Newark.
> I always plan on paying through the nose for most things when I
> go there
Get yourself a Visitor Travelcard before you head over and enjoy unlimited bus and Underground travel. You're right it is more expensive than NYC but cheaper if you pay here. A 6 zone Weekly Visitor Travelcard is in the $40 range based on the exchange rate at the time. If you only want zones 1 and 2 it becomes much cheaper. In NYC you can get London travelcards at the British Tourism Authority at the French Building, @ 5th and 45th.
-Dave
And I thought it was the Redbirds escape route from the scrapyard via JFK to London. I shall dream on. Nice thought though.
Depends where you're going. Those going to Queens or Long
Island will be happier to get off in Jamaica than in
Penn Station.
Anyways, I thought that the train will eventually be
extended - the link to Jamaica is just stage one.
Of course, why *not* use the Rockaway branch? The
right-of-way is still there. Screw the NIMBYs.
Aside from the NIMBYs, there are two obstacles (prior to reconstruction of the actual rail line itself) to the recycling of the Rockaway Branch: 1) an apartment block near Union Turnpike, which would have to be tunneled beneath; 2) the removal of all those trees.
Maybe they could refurbish the local stops along the route as well, for use by the LIRR. Maybe throw in a new stop at Queens Center too.
Wayne
1) might be a problem. 2)No Problemo. Those are technically called "Trash Trees". Nobody planted them, they just had seeds deposited (usually via wind/bird poop/animal carriage) and grew. There is a device developed for removal - it's known as a gasoline termite (AKA Chain Saw). Doubt if there will be any uproar about the removal.
All is not lost re: LIRR Rockaway Branch - there are still a bunch of people fighting for it - notably Stephen Dobrow of CBT (Committee for Better Transit), and publisher of Streetcar News - both worth getting to know...
Re: Streetcar News: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/trammit/ny.htm
Article on the JFK Issue from "Mobilizing the Region":
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/trammit/ny.htm
Yes, some of those trees have gotten rather large. Many of them are "Tree of Heaven" (Ailanthus), which grow like weeds. Lots of wild maples too. There's a photo of the old Woodhaven station, whose rounded roof canopy is surrounded by a green cover. There is a lot of mulch ready to be made.
By the way, is there any remnant of the Brooklyn Manor or Parkville stations left? There is some left of Woodhaven (it's a yellow brick canopy and mostly intact) and less left of Ozone Park (wooden canopy is mostly rotted away but some platform remains). The Rego Park station is gone. And the little shed on the n.side of the main line east of White Pot has fallen down.
Wayne
[Anyways, I thought that the train will eventually be
extended - the link to Jamaica is just stage one.]
There has been talk about several ways to get to La Guardia ... I seem to recall something involving extending the Air Train from Jamaica through Flushing Meadow to it. Is that what you recall ?
I prefer Rudy's version that extends the N to it. But that won't get you to JFK, oh well no plan is perfect.
Mr t__:^)
For information on the JFK Airtrain see the Port Authority site:
http://www.panynj.gov/
Statistics (Hint: JOBS!); FAQ page; Diagram of system
Anyone else here notice that the name AirTrain is easy to confuse with Airtran, aka Valuejet? Oh well. Even the name stinks :)
Even though it isn't a subway connection(and it should be), it looks nice. And we're getting one. I say, make the best of the thing. Anyone think they going to restore a JFK express when this thing is finished? I don't know what the service was on the last one, as I usually go to LaGuardia(which also has no convenient subway access), but it seems to me it should be direct service from midtown to either of these AirTrain transfers, with a minimal amount of stops. Perhaps from that disused lower level at 42nd. It would be nice to see that used.
I agree, after a long flight the last thing you want is a bus tour of the terminals and long term car park standing in an overcrowded bus. The return is even worse with an arm tearing walk over the stairs at Howard Beech with an even worse bus trip with passengers fighting to get on oan off at the same time. Anything must be better but the improvements will have to be matched with a quicker subway journey to make the whole thing credable.
Simon
Swindon UK
I assume part of the rationale of AirTrain is that it may be used more by the huge group of people who work at JFK, and is not primarily aimed at the airplane traveler. Although many employees probably take public transit to the airport today, there's probably a huge number who don't, but who might if the trip can be quicker and/or more convenient. Hopefully, AirTrain will capture a good percentage of these people, reducing the traffic congestion to make it easier for travelers who insist on taking cabs or driving to the airport. In any event, I suggest we give AirTrain a chance before loudly condemning it - it may work better than we think right now.
While we will all get to use Airtrain when completed, the whole package is emblematic of bad design complicated by lame politics . Item, many have written about the old LIRR row--land already owned by a state entity--BUT not the bi-state airport entity. Item, during the FTA noney application process our friends the ostrich brains at the airline companies tried to nix the project because of part of the financing package. How making it easier to get to an airport is detrimental to airline economnics escapes me. Item. in designing the nuts and bolts Airtrain will not be compatible with any other NY area rail system. So all new hardware, more spare parts to be stocked new repair shops and workers. (I'm NOT against more woekers per se, but if the new cars were say PA 5 1/2's they would likely share spares and thus SKILLS with equipment now in service.) Also note that if built to PATH(IRT) specs, all sorts of cooperative services could be built in future. Sadly, we will have a stand alone system which will not provide the integrated one-seat ride to Midtown which airline users have in Chgo(2), DC, Cleveland, Philly, Atlanta, and many foreign cities.
[I assume part of the rationale of AirTrain is that it may be used more by the huge group of people who work at JFK, and is not primarily aimed at the airplane traveler.]
I don't think the design has ANY benifit for those folks ... I worked there for 15 years, so I might be speaking with some knowledge.
- Phase I is just to get folks to long term parking. Any connection to the IND subway at Howard Beach will be an after thought. Re-sumption of Airport/IND Express service, I dought it. That would mean the Port Auth & MTA would have to wiork togather.
[Hopefully, AirTrain will capture a good percentage of these people, reducing the traffic congestion to make it easier for travelers who insist on taking cabs or driving to the airport.]
- Phase II, as some have said here, seems for folks on LI that want to get to JFK, B-U-T it doen't seem designed to make it convient. From Manhattan it's even worse, i.e. bus/train to Penn to Jamaica to JFK.
It is a start though, once it's built maybe someone will come along and FIX it.
Mr t__:^)
I rode past the construction site this morning on the shuttle bus. It's only a very short walk to the Howard Beach station - not under the canopy like the bus, but close enough.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.panynj.gov/
For the past few days, passing through Essex St, I began noticing bright flourescent lights next to the tower in the old trolley space. Then I noticed shiny white tiles, and soon after, a token booth, and passageway. I got a good look at it today, and it leads to the closed stairway that the tower operator uses. At first I thought it was new, but then getting a better look, it looks like it might be old.
Are there plans to open this, or did they just turn the lights on for the first time in a while to do some work, or something? Could it even be a movie set, or something?
This will be the exit to the bus during the williamsburg Bridge closure. Its being cleaned up in preparation.
Yea, there used to be a entrance there (the stairs are across the the street from the 24-hour J/M/Z entrance) but it's been closed down for several years now. Were those stairways an entrance to the trolleys when they existed or was it built later for the subways?
That entrance in question will be reopened while the WillyB is closed to train traffic.
SEPTA now has a internet address for anyone seeking information on the Schuylkill Valley Metro project, it is:
www.svmetro.com
Sincerely,
Michael
I wonder if something like RPA's Metrolink, with service to the Uppper East Side, Grand Central, Jamaica and Lower Manhattan, can be run privately as a separate system with, say, a $3.00 fare? Manhattan is the richest county in the country, and the East Side is the richest part of it. The only people who are as rich are those who commute in from the burbs, who don't like riding with us on the subway to Downtown. They can afford the $3.00 fare, and might be more likely to switch from cars and taxis if us scum weren't rubbing shoulders with them. A separate system might appeal to them, and with a high fare and a private company avoiding all the public bullshit, the cost of construction and operation would be lower.
The thought nauseates me, as the sarcastic "subject" shows, but giving the snobs what they want could free capacity for the rest of us, at the risk of having those folks grab public subsidies at the expense of the deterioration of the general system. But to me, that's no worse than what we face now with East Side Access and the Manhattan Bridge.
Interesting idea, to say the least! Something does puzzle me. You're assuming that there are a large number of wealthy types on the Upper East Side who don't take the subway to work because of all the "undesirables." Is that really true? My impression is that anti-transit views of that sort are rare among city residents. Or is that not the case?
(Are people not taking the train)?
Lots of people use taxis -- there are group taxi stands so four people can share a cab downtown on the Upper East Side.
More to the point, there are people using the subway (from the Upper East Side and Westchester) who don't like it, especially since the Lex is so crowded. They might pay $3.00 a ride to get off. That would leave more room for the rest of us.
How many? Hard to say. But if private investors were willing to finance it and it doesn't work, we just end up with a regular subway. Perhaps it could be like the Rockaway Branch -- a double fare until the capital costs are amortized (say 30 years), and then a single fare.
I think that even wealthy New Yorkers are accustomed to using the subways, at least to and from work. Stand by any Manhattan subway station in the morning and you will see members of every economic group exiting. Now off-hours and weekends are a different story, but that is nothing new. Since the RPA plans will never come to fruition, we will never have to worry about a $3.00 upscale subway.
I am a little confused by the subject title.Why the "Great White Way"? Who are you refering to when you say "they and them"?
"They" are people who, having achieved a certain standard of living, desire a little separation from those who have lower incomes and educational backgrounds. Ie. most Americans. After all, most people live in places where there are few people poorer than themselves (often behind gates), and drive cars which insulate them from the plebians. Most folks with those attitudes are white, but not all -- see our discussion of Councilmember Juanita Watkins concerns about "crime" and "undesirables" if the subway is extended to predominately Black SE Queens.
The marketplace provides generic and "premium" goods in most cases. There are plenty of people who will pay for "premium," even when a close inspection reveals it is little different than regular. Who buys a Lexus when its basically a Camry with a different name and a couple of gadgets? Are there no people like that in Manhattan?
Good point Larry. Snobs come in all ages, races and religious groups. It is really sad but true that no matter what ethnic group has immigrated to America, moved up the economic ladder and so-called "made it", most tend to forget where they came from (or maybe some would like to forget -- selective amnesia???)
I get it now. What you are is an expert on what "most white" people do and think.
I don't think that the cab sharing and express vans and busses coming from the Upper East Side to Downtown necessarily reflect a general unwillingness to ride public transit amongst those living there. (Although, I'm sure it does for some). In my mind, it's simple economics.
A trip from 84th and York (for example) to Wall Street via bus and subway probably takes between 45 and 60 minutes (we'll call it 50 minutes), and costs $1.50. A cab (at rush hour, taking the FDR) probably costs about $6.50 per person and takes 30 minutes max.
So, to save 20 minutes, they pay $5.
Assume that the person we're talking about makes $100K per year. Using some rough estimates of 40 hours per week, working 48 weeks a year, they're making $52 per hour. So, in their mind, their time is worth $17.33 per 20 minutes.
Using that logic, use of a taxi makes all the sense in the world, and there's no rail system short of an express from the UES to Wall St. that will get them out of the cabs.
Chuck
(Cab takes 30 mintues, max). The question is, would people pay premium prices (say $4.50 vs. $6.50 for the cab) for a separate service, and would this be enough to finance the 2nd Avenue subway. It may be.
As a daily rider through the 63rd Street Tunnel connection construction, I have noticed that it appears well on its way to completion. The track configuration appears to be shaping up just as described in Peter Dougherty's book, "Tracks of the New York City Subway, 1998 Revised Edition," with the new connecting tracks situated in between the traditional express tracks and the tracks that have assumed the local trains. In fact, it was only a few months ago that the eastbound locals were switched to a new right-of-way to accomodate the construction of the new "T1" track in the former "D1" right-of-way. (Service disruptions during rush-hours have been hardly noticable.)
I'm curious if anyone has an idea about how the service will change once the new connection is completed. Will "G" service be cut back to Court Square? Will the tunnel connecting the BMT 57th Street Station to the 63rd Street IND tunnel be abandoned again? Will Queens residents want to go out of their way to 63rd street when the 53rd Street tunnel already gets them to the 6th Ave. line and the 8th Ave. line more directly?
At the February meeting of CERA, the members were show slides of the newly rehabbed CTA 2600 series cars that have been returned by GEC-Alsthom in Hornell, NY. The cars will essentially be a 3200 car equipped with full width motor cab, new lighting, and seating arrangements. Unfortunately, the “railfan” seat, hallmark of all rapid rail equipment delivered to CTA from 1948 to 1988, is not part of reconfigured seating.
Three other pairs have joined the first pair, the 2637-2638. These four pair are to be used in a solid 8-car consist on the Red Line for testing. The first week of operation was to be 3/8/99, however, operator qualification has delayed the introduction date. I’m keeping my eyes open for the “new” train. All the exterior paint has been removed and the cars now sport a “clean” smooth side aluminum finish. On quick glance to only feature that makes them recognizable from their younger 3200 sisters is the lack of fluted sides.
The 2600 series cars were delivered to the CTA beginning in 1981, with the last cars coming in 1985-86. They were the last transit cars to come from the Budd Company’s famous Red Lion Plant. The mid-life rehab is to be applied to all the remaining 596 cars on the CTA property.
The 3200 series cars were delivered to CTA in 1991 and 1992. There were 257 cars built by Morrison-Knudson (MK). These cars have been great performers for the CTA.
Unfortunately, the 2600 series caused all the problems with breakdowns after the Blizzard of 1999, 2 January – 3 January.
I was in Chicago a few weeks ago and rode the yellow, red, and brown lines. If I remember right the 3200's had had the full width cab but the inerior windows on the left were not dark tinted so you can still see out of the front of the train, unlike WMATA where I was this week.
The cars on the red line were interesting with the yellow belts separating the operator from the passengers. I think it's nice to see the operator and not let them hide behind the dark glass.
The 2600's were converted with a makeshift full width cab in 1997. The "crime scene" yellow tape is used to block off the front forward facing seat when the operator is using the front area and the left side door controls.
Zeek mentions he liked seeing the operator out in the open, however, many of the operators here on CTA are not very happy about the situation. The regular riders miss the conductors also, but such is progress. In light of the recent ruling in FAVOR of Rachel Barton here in Chicago, I’m surprised the insurance carrier for the RTA, who will be footing most of the $29+ million bill, isn’t looking at OPTO on CTA as an greater insurance risk.
For those not familiar with the case, Ms. Barton had her violin caught in the closing door of a Metra/C&NW train a few years ago. The violin was quite expensive, Ms. Barton wouldn’t let go of it, and she was dragged by the train and lost a leg. A jury found Metra and C&NW negligent in the suit.
When the 2600's come back from rehab they will be like the 3200's, in that, they will have a closed off full width cab.
I hope they did something about noise insulation, or lack thereof, on these cars. They raised a tremendous racket in the subway portion of the Blue line when I last rode them in July of 1996. If you thought the R-10s were noisy...
Maybe my aunt will wind up on that particular Red line train one of these days, as she uses that line regularly.
Will the motorman's cabs have see-through windows as on the 3200s? I certainly hope so.
It is unfortunate that the CTA subways, the short stretches that exist, are extremely noisy. The Blue Line between Division and Clark/Lake are the worst, although the Red Line can also be quite loud. I’ve been told that the noise is due to lack of a program of rail grinding. The CTA used to be very good at this. It even had a train of 4000’s converted for this purpose. The cars were appropriately named “SSSSSShicoago”. However, the cars were removed from the roster of work equipment, as was other heavy steel cars used in snow fighting, and the rail grinding program has never been adequate since.
Yes, the full-length cabs have windows, however, the one behind the operator, like the 3200’s, will have a shadow curtain.
I’ve been using the Red Line working at a part-time job in the South Loop. I use the ‘L’ between Belmont/Sheffield and Harrison/State. I was just thinking about the “noise” this weekend when a friend of mine from out of town did an ‘L’ tour on Sunday. You could hold a conversation on when the train was on the elevated structure, however, in the subway, forget it.
I'm sure that lack of rail grinding contributes to the painful noise level in Chicago's subway sections. My gut feeling is that the tunnel construction and possibly even the rolling stock itself also play a role.
Look at it this way: Chicago's subway tunnels are continuous tubes, and act as reverb chambers/amplifiers. The noise has no place to go. Poor insulation on the rolling stock could also be an issue. I don't believe the 6000-series cars had any to speak of, and they used to raise as much racket in the State St. subway as do the 2600s today. The 2000s seemed to be a bit quieter, I thought.
It's just too bad that New York's subway trains don't go nearly as fast as Chicago's. I'm ashamed to admit it, but any of Chicago's postwar L equipment could outrun even the R-10s. The 4000s? I understand they weren't as swift; although I remember seeing them on the Evanston Express, I never rode on them.
At the February meeting of CERA, the members were show slides of the newly rehabbed CTA 2600 series cars that have been returned by GEC-Alsthom in Hornell, NY. The cars will essentially be a 3200 car equipped with full width motor cab, new lighting, and seating arrangements. Unfortunately, the “railfan” seat, hallmark of all rapid rail equipment delivered to CTA from 1948 to 1988, is not part of reconfigured seating.
Three other pairs have joined the first pair, the 2637-2638. These four pair are to be used in a solid 8-car consist on the Red Line for testing. The first week of operation was to be 3/8/99, however, operator qualification has delayed the introduction date. I’m keeping my eyes open for the “new” train. All the exterior paint has been removed and the cars now sport a “clean” smooth side aluminum finish. On quick glance to only feature that makes them recognizable from their younger 3200 sisters is the lack of fluted sides.
The 2600 series cars were delivered to the CTA beginning in 1981, with the last cars coming in 1985-86. They were the last transit cars to come from the Budd Company’s famous Red Lion Plant. The mid-life rehab is to be applied to all the remaining 596 cars on the CTA property.
The 3200 series cars were delivered to CTA in 1991 and 1992. There were 257 cars built by Morrison-Knudson (MK). These cars have been great performers for the CTA.
Unfortunately, the 2600 series caused all the problems with breakdowns after the Blizzard of 1999, 2 January – 3 January.
Went to Main Street yesterday. The new Escalators & station at EOT are open for business ... nice B-I-G open space.
Mr t__:^)
March 18th Newsday has an article by Hugo Kugiya with photo a FA-2 trying to push a flatbed truck down the tracks. Looks like it was a low speed contact, e.g. article says "... the train was already preparing to stop."
Mr t__:^)
The train was going slowly because it was (a) on a curved section of track; (b) it was preparing to stop at the Glen Street station; and (c) its previous stop, Glen Cove (which the media continually misidentifies the Glen STREET station as) is a mere .6 of a mile east. If this train hit a truck while passing through, say, the New Hyde Park Road crossing at its customary 60mph (yes, diesels DO go that fast!), there'd be a replay of the AMTRAK disaster in Illinois.
Sometimes I want to tell the guy behind me honking furiously when I stop for crossing gates, "I really don't feel like committing suicide today, thank you."
[The train was going slowly because it was (a) on a curved section of track; (b) it was preparing to stop at the Glen Street station; and (c) its previous stop, Glen Cove (which the media continually misidentifies the Glen STREET station as) is a mere .6 of a mile east. If this train hit a truck while passing through, say, the New Hyde Park Road crossing at its customary 60mph (yes, diesels DO go that fast!), there'd be a replay of the AMTRAK disaster in Illinois.]
Things might not necessarily have been that bad. High-speed grade crossing collisions between trains and large trucks usually have relatively minor consequences. For instance, a few years ago a Metro North diesel train hit a flatbed truck carrying a construction crane that had become high-centered on a grade crossing in Milford, Connecticut. It was a fairly high-speed impact, probably around 40 to 45 mph, severe enough to split the crane in half. The cab control car of the two-coach train derailed, but the second car remained on the tracks. There were about 20 minor injuries and about $500,000 in property damage including the destroyed crane. I heard that the Illinois Amtrak crash occurred because some of the rebar on the truck got jammed under the lead locomotive's wheels and caused the derailment. The actual impact damage to the front of the locomotive seemed relatively minor.
Actually, the real danger with the LIRR grade crossings involve tanker trucks carrying propane. A few years ago I saw the aftermath of the propane truck explosion on I-684 in White Plains. It was a couple of days after the explosion, and I couldn't believe the size of the burned area around the highway. If something like that ever happened in the middle of Mineola or New Hyde Park ...
In my prior life I drove a school bus (and was also a driving instructor) for a company in the Roslyn Area (Pierce Coach Line). There are many RR crossings that we went over each day, including the main line crossings at Herricks Road, Roslyn Road, etc. where M-1s zoom by every few minutes during rush hour.
As everyone knows, a school bus must make a full stop between 15 and 50 feet from the nearest rail. While it's an "old wives tale" that the front door should be opened, the driver must ensure that he/she can look and listen; if that means telling the kids to be quiet and/or open the door, that's OK (though the door must be closed prior to moving. Furthermore, the red school lights may not be used -- the four-way flashers are appropriate. And (in a manual transmission bus) the bus must be placed in lowest forward gear, and not be shifted until it is clear of the tracks. But I digress.
Once the stop is made for the tracks, the driver must not proceed until the bus can sufficently clear the entire set of tracks; I used to teach that two bus lenghts is the minimum. I can't tell you how many times drivers behind me have honked when there was absolutely nowhere to go. And some of those times, the gates have come down right in front of me -- had I heeded the driver's "call" I would have been stuck on the tracks.
Don't get me started on drivers who pass school buses with their red school lights flashing -- that's a subject for BusTalk I suppose.
Many a ride in on a Port Jeff morning rush train with a FA2 in the lead, wrong railed express, flying through grade crossings (20+ I think) you see trucks with the gate arms that came down over the body of the truck.
Scary thought....
Todd: I wish it were unnecessary for me to drive my car. I find absolutely no enjoyment out of it anymore due to dis-courteous/ offensive drivers. At least when I operate my subway train, I don't have to worry about that kind of garbage.
It is in the NYS Vehicle and Traffic Law book (1997) that a bus (any bus) must stop at a RR Crossing and open the door to listen for a train.
-Hank
The school I attended in South Bend was right next to a New York Central spur track which saw freight service, maybe one or two trains per day at an average speed of perhaps 20 mph. We were bussed to school, and were constantly adminshed to keep quiet until our bus had crossed the track (although we were never threatened by the nuns with eternal damnation). Funny thing - our driver never stopped at the crossing. Just as soon as we had crossed that track, boom! It was as if you turned the stereo speakers on. That track is gone now, but most of the ROW is still there.
Back many years ago (when I was in first grade, so you know it's got to be before the dawn of recorded history) I was a passenger on a school bus that was hit by a train at an unprotected crossing on an industrial branch line. We were on a field trip; the first bus stopped at the crossing, determined that there was sufficient time and distance to proceed, and crossed the line. Our bus blindly followed, directly into the path of an old 2-6-0 or some such that had been switching around the bend. Two second graders, one parent chaperone, one teacher, and the bus driver were killed and several more students at the front of the bus were severely injured (I was in the back and was only shaken up).
A related item: Several years ago a short line in North Carolina made a safety video for Operation Lifesaver that involved one of their old Geeps hitting a big old Olds 88 (with gas tank removed) at about 40 mph. Thanks to some connections, I was in the cab during the filming. At that speed, with a short train behind the loco, I didn't even feel the impact. Had anyone been in the Olds, they would have died instantly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Woah!!!! Since when was their any grAde crossingins in Miford that MN goes over? certainly not on the New haven line, though maybe on the Waterury line...
I saw the aftermath of the Glen Street accident. Basically, it was beautiful riding weather, and I'm about 5 min from Glen Street. One of the poliece barriacades for that closed off Elm st was moved out of the way (probbly by a resident), and this allowed access to the burger king right next to the tracks - a distance from the wreck of 20 feet. I had no film for my camera though :(
Anyway - there was a sizeable hole in the cab unit, the truck was *smashed* and the bulldozer thingy on the flatbed was on its side. Comically, both ditch lights had popped out and werre hanging off the front by their wires.. I'm not sure why Glen Street was closed all day, since the accident was not near it, and there wasn't much acitivity when I got their (noonish). Anyway, it was the big event of the day by me.
[Woah!!!! Since when was their any grAde crossingins in Miford that MN goes over? certainly not on the New haven line, though maybe on the Waterury line...]
Thanks for pointing that out. It was on the Waterbury branch.
Sometimes I want to tell the guy behind me honking furiously when I stop for crossing gates, "I really don't feel like committing suicide today, thank you."
Agreed. When will people get it: At grade crossings, you challenge a train, you LOSE. Simple concept to grasp, isn't it?
--Mark
When it comes to short-tempered types: if people aren't swayed by words -- tell them to go to www.rotten.com for graphic evidence when someone thinks they can tackle a train at a grade crossing.:(
Mark: I'll put it this way, In case of a tie, the train always wins!
The TA is gearing up another rider courtesy effort. Maybe it's just when and where I ride, but I experience one hell of a lot less rude behaviour on the subways than on the road. With people packed together, seldom does anyone push, and when people do talk, it is in whispers. People try to get out of each other's way so they can get on and off, even though it isn't easy. In fact, people act less respectful on airplanes too. You've all read the reports of planes getting grounded because someone assaults a flight attendent. Even the homeless are less nasty than in the 1980s. They make a general announcement, rather than standing over you and cursing.
So I think this rude behaviour thing is overstated. Do you agree?
[The TA is gearing up another rider courtesy effort. Maybe it's just when and where I ride, but I experience one hell of a lot less rude behaviour on the subways than on the road. With people packed together, seldom does anyone push, and when people do talk, it is in whispers. People try to get out of each other's way so they can get on and off, even though it isn't easy. In fact, people act less respectful on airplanes too. You've all read the reports of planes getting grounded because someone assaults a flight attendent. Even the homeless are less nasty than in the 1980s. They make a general
announcement, rather than standing over you and cursing.]
I basically agree with you. I really don't see much outright rudeness on the trains. There may be some (relatively mild) pushing as people try to get on and off crowded trains, but that's a more-or-less inevitable consequence of crowding and not true rudeness.
For a period of about a year, there was a middle-aged woman on the 7 out of Main Street weekday mornings about 7:30 who would go out of her way to start fights and then shift the blame to the person she was antagonizing. The exchange would go something like this:
(She would try to shoehorn herself into a space on the bench too small for a hamster.)
Passenger next to her (usually male): "What are you doing? There's no room here!"
Her: "These benches are built for NINE people. There are only EIGHT sitting here!"
Passenger: "{B.S}! There's not enough room for another person!
Her: "There would be if you stood up and let me sit down."
Passenger: "Why should I give up MY seat for you? Stand like everyone else."
Her: "I paid my $1.25 (at the time); I'm entitled to a seat!"
Passenger: "All these other people paid and they're standing. You don't hear THEM bitch!"
Her (to no one in particular): "Did you hear that? He called me a bitch!"
Big, burly guy (to harrassed passenger): "Hey, buddy, whatcha makin' trouble for? Leave the lady alone!"
Passenger: "Leave HER alone?! She started it!"
B.B.G: "Whatsa matter, you some kind of {offensive term for cat}? C'mon, step outside!"
Her (to nearest woman passenger): "I tell you, these men are SOOO nasty!"
Yes, I know we're all a bit cranky in the morning or after a long day's work, but to start fights among people minding their own business is a bit beyond the call of duty. And these aren't even the homeless or high-school kids, but the 'legitimate' commuters with newspapers and briefcases!
Do any of you get regularly subjected to these spreaders of good tidings who are obviously miserable and wish to make others the same?
Yes, Theres this one regular passanger at Van Courtland who likes starting arguement with TA personal at about 9:00 AM. This guy started with my Conductor when he was cleaning a train out to be Layed Up at 240 Yard. So he trys to physicly treaten my Conductor. So a T/O saw it and trys to in the middle so the guy didn't touch my partner. Then the guy trys to follow the Conductor into the Crew Room but a buch of employees blocked him. Now he put a Complaint on my Conductor. Luckly my conductor wrote a report on it but the Line SUPT lost it like he always does. We call him SUPT Maybe.
There is a guy at my stop who rants and raves if the train is late. But he lives at the group home for the mentally impaired around the corner from me, and is basically harmless.
[There is a guy at my stop who rants and raves if the train is late. But he lives at the group home for the mentally impaired around the corner from me, and is basically harmless.]
A mere amateur. You want ranting and raving, see what happens whenever a LIRR train is late ...
I made the mistake once of taking a seat on the 6:30pm Penn Sta-to-Babylon train that "belonged" to some regulars. These two clowns (in suits, I may add) actually tried to get the conductor to make me move. I told one of them to go to hell. They then sat down across from me and one stood up, all the while giving me dirty looks. Then one of them opened up a beer. That was enough for me; I got up and left. I made my way up to the front car where I found a seat (sort of).
Wayne
That kills me. People think that just because they happen to sit in the same seat day after day think they own it. I usually sit in the same pew in church, but if I get there and find someone else already sitting there, I'll go sit elsewhere.
IMHO, it's not worth getting into an argument about. Besides, that person might really go off the deep end and pull a gun on you...
I once had an African-American dude get bent out of shape when I tried to make my way to the storm door window of a D train. He kept repeating, "It's not fair". Unfortunately, I boarded at 59th St., and had to put up with his dirty looks all the way to 125th St. I got off there and waited for another D train.
There is one F train rider who isn't feeling the slightest bit guilty that the F got restored, and the G got screwed -- my wife.
It seems that every day, her F train gets stalled because a G train gets to cross in front. Its like Chinese Water Torture, drip, drip, drip, and you become enraged because you know the next drip is coming. She doesn't know why she is always delayed by the G (she boards the F at the same time every day). She even liked it when the G ran local and the F express, since she never got stuck.
Since the G was eliminated, and the delays along with them, she's feeling much better.
There you go. You answered your own question. She boards at the same time every day, and a G train is scheduled to go ahead at 4th Ave. The true delay which backs everything up is those useless-slow down the railroad-wheel detectors at Bergen St. I hope they got destroyed for good in the fire!
If Bergen St. lower level was open, the TA could have just run the F express the whole time, and had the G train run local. There would be minimal complaints since people still could transfer to a Manhattan bound train at Bergen St., and that this is just temporary because of the fact that the relays have to be replaced.
I too have seen Rail Rage--many homeless I see lately are very bold. I follow the rules and tell them to "pay your fare" and they come back with #&@# and other swear words--even the grandmotherly types.I have ,per the rules, told customers (from within the booth) "no smoking" and again rage. I could (but wont) write a book on nasty customers but we have to be courteous to all even if they are rude. I have seen cops and told them of the customers and they cuss out the cops who then usually let them go!(some cops do the job and remove the offender.)
The only real "rudeness" that I experience on the CTA 'L' is the door blockers at rush hour. These inconsiderate people just stand in the doorway so that only one person can get off or on at a time. And don't try to suggest that they move out the way!
The second rude thing that I've got a peeve about is the Yuppies that come on the Ravenswood Brown Line, usually stops below Belmont, with the largest cup of Latte or whatever from Starbucks in one hand and three shoulder bags on the other arm. I'm just waiting for a large, hot cup of coffee to fly all over people unfortunate to be too close.
If, and when, it does happen, I'd expect it would be lawsuit time. And I'm sure the CTA would be responsible for letting it happen
I agree with you that there's a lot less outright rude behavior on the subways these days.
Hopefully, any rider courtesy effort will focus on the "cluelessly inconsiderate". In this category, I include not only the usual cast of door blockers and baby stroller-toters but also my newest pet peeve -- the backpack wearer. Seems like there are many more people (seems to be high fashion amongst the college-age set) carrying all their worldly possessions on their back, taking up twice the space of your average passenger and banging the backpack into everyone around them.
Sometimes I want to scream "Just put the backpack at your feet!!" (Of course, then I'd be a rude passenger and we'd have to have a courtesy campaign for people like me).
End of rant. Thanks for listening.
Chuck
The only thing that bothers me is when I am standing right in front of a seated passenger in a crowded car, and someone needs to get by, and I cantilever myself out over the seater passenger to make room (straining my back), and the other standee just stops taking up the air space I used to occupy. Usually I end up wrenching myself away to some less desirable stop. If I were a rude passenger, I'd stand back up straight and knock them over.
I don't get the people here, or in the Metra newsletter (aka whiners' rag) "On the (Bi)Level", who complain about people with bags, briefcases, or backpacks. This is what some people have to carry with them, people! Do you think someone carrying a briefcase and a large bag WANTS to lug all that stuff around? What is it that they are supposed to do to satisfy the whiners??? And telling them to "Leave it at home!" is not constructive advice.
My second pet peeve is the people who automatically call ANYONE who puts their bag or briefcase on a seat a "seathog". A seathog is someone who takes up an extra seat and won't pick up their stuff when someone politely asks them to. A seathog is someone who leaves their stuff in a seat when there are people standing. But if there are several seats left, including double seats, and nobody is standing, don't call me (and I do mean ME here) a "seathog" because I don't want my leather briefcase on the filthy floor! When I see people standing, I put my briefcase on my lap, every time. But when there are enough seats, who am I harming by putting my bag off the floor?
My third, and last, pet peeve are those people who have some sort of 1980s "die yuppie scum" neurosis against cellular phones. They are automatically either offended or sarcastic when they hear a pocket phone ring and the person answers it. I'm not talking about cell-phone users who hold conversations in a loud voice heard by the whole train car, but people who speak into the phone in a low, even voice and STILL face comments or rude not-quite-under-the-breath noises from a handful of other passengers. Last time I checked, this is not 1983, cell phones are not a novelty for rich people or show-offs, people answer their cell phones or make calls on them on trains for a reason, and they are NOT carrying around a phone to impress the other passengers or anyone else!!
John makes good points here. Extra bags are not an issue. In today's fast paced business world we need to carry more and more along with us. Most people that I've run into on the 'L' are considerate when it comes to bags.
My problem with bags is the backpacks that are mounted on people’s shoulders. When they turn and move about a crowded car some people are not considerate enough to understand that their loaded, usually with books, bag can be in someone’s face or knocking someone's glasses right off their face (it happened to me).
Back to things that are rude behavior on mass transit. Eating and drinking and then depositing your trash under the seat or on the seat next to or behind you. Coming into a rush hour train with a large cup of very hot coffee balancing it in one hand and hanging on the stanchion with the other. Playing your Walkman SO LOUD that everyone on the car can hear it even when the person has earphones. Placing your dirty shoes/boots/sneakers/etc. on seats that people must sit on. And lastly, standing in the doorways blocking exit and entry into the car. CTA service could be faster if there weren't so many door blockers.
I too enjoy the space by the door, however, when the train stops and my side door opens, I will step off the train to allow exits and boarding.
- Windy City Jim K
(Cell phones) are a big issue on the commuter rail lines here in NYC. Non-users want them banned, they are talking about separate cars for them. And I've heard some fairly tolerant people complaint that MetroNorth cellphone users are acting self-important.
I've never seen one on the subway (maybe they don't work there)?
[(Cell phones) are a big issue on the commuter rail lines here in NYC. Non-users want them banned, they are talking about separate cars for them. And I've heard some fairly tolerant people complaint that MetroNorth cellphone users are acting self-important.]
I don't take much notice of cell phones even though quite a few LIRR riders use them. For the most part, users keep their voices at reasonable levels and don't annoy other riders.
On the other hand, about six months ago I sat next to a young woman who kept up an unspeakably profane (and loud) cell phone conversation for over a half-hour. She didn't seem capable of uttering a complete sentence without using at least one obscenity. It quickly became evident that she was breaking up with her boyfriend. I realized that he was the luckiest man on the face of the Earth.
I'm sure that fellow also had quite an extensive vocabulary of four-letter words. Maybe he cheated on her. We'll never know.
You're right. Generally, cell phones do not work in the underground portions of the subway.
On a few occasions, I've witnessed passengers get in a quick cell phone call on the #1 as the train comes up for air at 125 St.
I have a male passenger nightly who gets on one of my shuttle trips and is on the cell phone non stop for the entire trip to Metrop'n Ave. I hear him thru the closed cab door. Fortunately, it is at 12:30 AM and he has the car virtually to himself. BTW: when the fatal WillyB crash occured a few years ago, the first report of it was via a cell phone call to 911 by a passenger on the M train.
There's a recent article (March 17 1999) pertaining to Metro-North and the possibility of a cell-phone car:
http://www2.trains.com/trains/news/news.shtml
Once at the page, do a Find in Page... on the page for:
Metro North mulling cell-phone car
While we're on the issue of cell phones,I have noticed a tremendous increase in the number of people using cell phones while driving their car.This must be stopped. I propose a crackdown on "cellphoning and driving."If you're pulled over for driving erratically as a result of using a cellphone,you will receive a $500 fine and have the cellphone confiscated.
Why limit the fine to $500? Clearly, if one can afford a cell phone, one caN AFFORD A $1,000 FINE...
"Why limit the fine to $500? Clearly, if one can afford a cell phone, one caN AFFORD A $1,000 FINE..."
This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I meant when I mentioned the 1980s 'die yuppie scum' animosity that some morons have toward anyone with a cell phone. These schmucks still believe that the only people who have cell phones are rich (and they hate all rich people to begin with) and that they are showing off by using the phone in public.
There often are cell-phone users sitting near me on the LIRR, and being a nosy sort I sometimes try to listen to their conversations. Only on rare occasions have I heard something that sounds like an important business discussion. For the most part, the conversations are of the Hi-Honey-I'm-on-the-train-be-home-in-20-minutes-I-love-you variety.
"Only on rare occasions have I heard something that sounds like an important business discussion. For the most part, the conversations are of the Hi-Honey-I'm-on-the-train-be-home-in-20-minutes-I-love-you variety."
I agree with your observation but what's wrong with that? It's the same kind of call that would have clogged up (and still does, to a degree) the banks of payphones in Grand Central, Penn, Union, Northwestern, South, Market Street, or any other downtown commuter train terminal up until less than ten years ago. But the person makes the call from his or her pocket phone and thus doesn't have to worry about missing the train while on the phone. I know that, about once a week, I used to miss evening trains, at the time of day when they are running once an hour, calling home.
I never said that cell phones were always used for vital business and emergencies, only that people weren't using them to show off. "I'm on the train and I'll be home in twenty minutes" is a functional call, and not at all the same as the "guess where I am!" call that lots of people make on airplane phones.
["Only on rare occasions have I heard something that sounds like an important business discussion. For the most part, the conversations are of the Hi-Honey-I'm-on-the-train-be-home-in-20-minutes-I-love-you variety."
I agree with your observation but what's wrong with that? It's the same kind of call that would have clogged up (and still does, to a degree) the banks of payphones in Grand Central, Penn, Union, Northwestern, South, Market Street, or any other downtown commuter train terminal up until less than ten years ago. But the person makes the call from his or her pocket phone and thus doesn't have to worry about missing the train while on the phone.]
There's nothing wrong at all with that sort of call. Indeed, one could make the claim that the calls which *are* obnoxious are those of the big-shot-business-deal type, in other words the ones where the caller wants to impress everyone with what a big cheese he is. Maybe it's just my imagination, but the (blessedly few) people who make these business calls on trains seem to talk louder than "social" callers.
The loud-mouth businesspeople can get what's coming to them. Talk too loud, and who knows... there could be a competitor gobbling up the information in the next row.
I've seen it on airplanes - talk to your colleague in the next seat about an impending business deal when heading to a trade show. The innocent person across the aisle doing a crossword puzzle turns out to be the new sales manager for your arch-rival!
Yes. There was an example cited in an internal publication from our security department last year. Seems two of our people were on the Metroliner to argue a case at the FCC. Across the aisle were two of the competition's folks who were going to argue the opposite side. Our folks knew everything the competition was going to say and basically refuted it in advance (since our folks were going to speak first). The competition was caught totally off-guard and lost their case.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On the subject of those 'guess where I am calls' Which I will freely admit I'll make if someone ever manages to coax me onto an airplane just for the novelty of it; I can't STAND those idiots who sit behind home plate at ball games, are on the phone the entire game, and waving at the camera, saying, 'lookit me, I'm on TV!'
-Hank
Cell phones' costs are dropping thanks to significant competition, at least here in Boston. It pays every few years to "refinance." Last summer, I switched to digital PCS. I got the phone for well under $100, and my monthly fee is $20... including free air time for nights and weekends. Since that's when I use my cell phone most, it's less expensive than my "ma bell" phone at home.
Back on topic, people tend to yell into a cell phone when they can't hear, as on a noisy train. Wrong! Yelling doesn't help you hear, and it doesn't help the other person (who can probably hear you pretty well). Most cell phone problems are not volume level, but either analog or digital break-up... which can't be solved by a volume change!
Your $19.99 a month (call it $30 total w/taxes and some over the limit usage) for 40 minutes a month and free nights (9pm=7am) usage and free weekends (9pm Fri to 7am Mon) is cheap.
$360 a year??
THat's what I pay, I could not afford a $500 fine.
I use the phone each night I get off on the platform, "Honey need me to pick anything up?" call.
I've also used it to get medical asistance while on the subway and the operating crew igonoring the pleas from the platform.
Actually, Lou, my monthly bill comes out to less than $22 per month with taxes and fees. I get 20 "free anytime" minutes per month for those rare occasions when I need to use peak time. And my off-peak time begins at 8pm, not 9pm, a real benefit. I use Cellular One (Boston), for which I don't work nor have any financial connection; this plug is merely becuase it's the best deal I could find.
I have a cell phone through AAA which costs about the same as what Todd pays for his phone. I keep it in the car, which is specifically why I got it in the first place, and don't use it a whole lot. It's intended for peace of mind, more than anything else. I even reinstalled the cigarette lighter in my Jeep in order to utilize the battery eliminator that came with the phone.
Most of our ability to make corrections to the census bureau's address file (which was very incomplete) came from Bell Atlantic records for apartments with 1+ fixed line phone (active or inactive). Guess that data source won't be of much use in 2010.
If I were 22 again, I'd get a cell phone, a mailboxes etc. mailbox, a Metrocard, a camping mess kit, and a portable PC, and move around between sublets and roomates. Seems like there is no reason to be anyplace in particular anymore until you're married with kids.
That's a lot cheaper than the best possible deal I could find in NYC. I decided I really don't need one, and I got rid of my beeper as well. If I'm not home, and you don't have the number for where I am, then I don't want you to find me.
On the subject of cell phones, my parents have one (my mother was convinced of its value after a breakdown on the PA Turnpike); they seem to think that just because they have it, if we need them, we can call them. They STILL don't understand that the phone has to be turned on to recieve a call! This became a particularly important thing when the fuel pump in their car went on a trip to Canada. They broke down in VT, and called us, telling us where they were staying, and that they'd call us from the next hotel. Next day, the guy that fixed the car calls us, tells us he forgot to tighten the straps that hold the gas tank to the car! A few frantic attempts to get through to them on their cell phone, which of course, was off, failed; they didn't call us for 2 days, because that's when their Mastercard stopped working. In a fit of genius, I figured they'd need to use it eventually, so I called the credit card company and told them the problem. They blocked the card, which required them to call Mastercard, where they got our message, and called home.
The moral? A cell phone is useless if the person using it doesn't understand how to use it.
-Hank
Take you wife out to dinner for the $22 you spend on those cell phone rates.
About the cell phones. I see these people use cell phones on MARTA all the time. Bell South even has antennas and equipment in MARTA subway tunnels to take care of these people. The phone rings on the train and people conduct their business while riding. I'm sick and tired of people making a private office out of this public place. I don't want to hear their conversations at all. A driver in a car talking on a cell phone almost hit me while I was walking across a street.
Cell phones are an excellent way for crazy people to talk to themselves while walking in public without looking crazy. The cell phone doesn't have to work in this case.
GET RID OF THE CELL PHONES.
(Tired of hearing private conversations in a public place). Perhaps if the crime rate drops low enough, they'll bring back real phone booths. Remember those?
[(Tired of hearing private conversations in a public place). Perhaps if the crime rate drops low enough, they'll bring back real phone booths. Remember those?]
Probably impossible today because of ADA.
SO WHAT? Bring the phone booths back anyway.
I agree with you. Bring back the closed phone booths. The businessman can make a office out of this place. Haven't these people figured out that their phone calls can be monitored. I wouldn't feel good with this sense of privacy.
Stupid Criminal Tricks
Those yo-yo's forgot that cell phones are using radio frequencies for part of the calls, and merrily chatted away about various nefarious and illegal plans, all while the cops listened (and recorded) all the way. In court, the lawyers tried the "you used a wiretap" defense - only to be rebuffed by the judge. Radio traffic has no pretense of privacy.
Maryland actually tried to make cell calls while driving illegal, but the cell company lobbyists earned their money. The bill died in committee.
Relief from the boors?
Somebody told me that there is a device than can be coupled into p-a systems that block cell/pager frequencies. Don't know if this is real or not, but it sure sounds interesting.
Any frequency can be interfered with, using today's technology. Taking any overt action that is specifically intended to do so, however (as opposed to unintentional interference - the best example I can think of is when you run your vacuum or blender and your TV goes crazy) is a federal offense.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"The phone rings on the train and people conduct their business while riding. I'm sick and tired of people making a private office out of this public place. I don't want to hear their conversations at all." "GET RID OF THE CELL PHONES."
This is exactly the sort of rant that gets published monthly in "On the (Bi)Level" the Metra newsletter about which was said "...setting new standards of thoughtlessness, grouchiness, pettiness, elitism and self-absorption." (Chicago Sun-Times, June 12, 1994) People write in to complain about telephone conversations, live conversations, food, perfume, putting on makeup, typing on computers, and sundry other topics.
The running joke are the nuts that SERIOUSLY demand separate cars for certain activities -- talking vs. no-talking cars, eating vs. no-eating cars, even perfume vs. no-perfume cars. The standard humorous response is that Metra should create separate cars for the whiners!
Get a clue! The whole reason people ride the trains is so that they can eat, put on makeup, type, or **TALK** without the danger of running their car off the road! A phone conversation held at a low tone is no worse than a live conversation between two passengers. And unless you're an unreconstructed pre-Vatican II monk or a complete misanthrope, you can't be seriously advocating a vow of silence for passengers! If you "don't want to hear [other people's] conversations at all," held at a normal volume, either put in earplugs or DRIVE!!!!!
(Vow of silence for passengers). Almost seems to exist, at least on the subway. Indeed, my uncle-in-law who is in fact a missionary Cathoic priest uses the fact that no one talks to each other on the subway as evidence that we live in an immoral, depersonalized society (relative to say, Africa, where farmers will sit and talk with a visitor for days while the crop rots in the field just to be polite).
If you have taken the train here, you must have noticed. 150 people in a subway car, and silence.
That's because a lot of people don't travel together. off-peak, when there are families and freinds traveling together, there is much more conversation.
-Hank
What's wrong with silence? I even have agreements with friends that I see on the subway in the morning that we'll simply say "hello" to each other & move on our way, so as not to disturb.
I don't agree with you about using earplugs or driving. People rarely have conversations on MARTA and the trains are quite. After all, the people don't know the other riders. The ringing of these phones is annoying and the conversations conducted are almost always business related.
These people have no consideration for others by using the cell phones. You have the roll reversed, people should use the phones for emergencies only and not for their private office. Next they will want data lines on the train and a desk to conduct their business. Trains are for commuting and not for cell phones for conducting business deals.
What's real bad about cell phones is there use in automobiles. Some b*stard cut me off twice this morning on the expressway while talking on a cell phone.
In general, I strongly disagree with you on making accommodations for cell phone uses on rapid transit trains. They can all take a "hike".
"People rarely have conversations on MARTA and the trains are quite. After all, the people don't know the other riders."
I agree with you (and others) that there's not a lot of talking on subways. But on many commuter rail systems, people DO know each other, either from getting on at the same station (they know each other already) or riding in the same car on the same train, and many people DO have conversations on the trains.
"The ringing of these phones is annoying and the conversations conducted are almost always business related. These people have no consideration for others by using the cell phones. You have the roll reversed, people should use the phones for emergencies only and not for their private office. Next they will want data lines on the train and a desk to conduct their business. Trains are for commuting and not for cell phones for conducting business deals."
This is exactly my point -- who are ***YOU*** to prescribe WHAT trains are for, other than the obvious that they are for commuting and are not to be used as public toilets or garbage cans?? Who are you to decide what is or is not an "emergency" phone call? Who are you to prescribe that phones should be used only in emergencies in the first place??? Some people read on the trains, some listen to the radio, some look out the window, and some sleep. On commuter trains, some people eat and drink. If someone is talking in a loud voice, WHETHER IN A LIVE CONVERSATION OR ON THE PHONE, they are being inconsiderate and should be warned by the conductor. But someone talking in a normal voice TO ANOTHER PERSON OR ON A PHONE should not be the concern of anybody else who is minding their own business.
"What's real bad about cell phones is there use in automobiles. Some b*stard cut me off twice this morning on the expressway while talking on a cell phone."
I agree with you there. But realize that the people who do business on the train (make cell phone calls, use laptops) are almost universally people who COULD drive to work but have chosen not to. They've made the right decision NOT to be talking on the phone while on the expressway, and forbidding them to use phones on the train will just encourage many to give up the trains and drive to work.
"In general, I strongly disagree with you on making accommodations for cell phone uses on rapid transit trains. They can all take a 'hike'."
Read my lips: I'M NOT ASKING FOR ACCOMODATIONS FOR CELL PHONE USERS!!! If they are talking too loud and thus bothering other people, they should be told to keep it down. But if they aren't loud, then they aren't bothering anyone and should be LEFT ALONE, and leaving someone alone who isn't bothering anyone is not "accomodation"! YOU are the person who wants an accomodation because you want the conductor to threaten ANY PERSON daring to talk on the train with expulsion. **YOU** ARE THE PERSON BEING INTRUSIVE AND OBNOXIOUS, NOT THEM!!!!
I mind my own business on the train. Eating, drinking and playing radios is not permitted on MARTA and is against Georgia law. You have allot of nerve calling me intrusive and obnoxious. I didn't call you names. I just expressed my views concerning Cell Phone users and I am not trying to limit peoples' rights. At least you agree with me on not making accommodations for cell phone users on rapid transit systems.
"Eating, drinking and playing radios is not permitted on MARTA and is against Georgia law."
As it is on most every American rapid transit system, and I agree with the policy, since there are no garbage cans on subway trains. However, on commuter trains, where the trip is longer and there ARE garbage cans on the trains, eating and drinking are allowed. I made that distiction in my message.
Some systems forbid using radios altogether, but many, like Chicago, make an exception for radios with headphones. Until the Walkman came out, Chicago also banned ALL radio use on rapid transit.
I said that you were intrusive because you were stating that other people shouldn't conduct business on the trains, period. But if they aren't being noisy or disruptive, then they aren't bothering anyone, and the fact that you are bothered by the fact that they are conducting business, in and of itself, means that you are not minding your own business (no pun intended). Not minding one's own business=intrusive. However, I admit that "obnoxious" was overstating the matter and wasn't warranted, so I apologize for using that word.
["Eating, drinking and playing radios is not permitted on MARTA and is against Georgia law."
As it is on most every American rapid transit system, and I agree with the policy, since there are no garbage cans on subway trains. However, on commuter trains, where the trip is longer and there ARE garbage cans on the trains, eating and drinking are allowed.]
New York seems to be a breed apart. Eating and drinking is legal on the subway, although there is a prohibition on open containers of liquid. Metro North and the LIRR both allow eating and drinking despite a general lack of garbage cans. One might say that LIRR trains on Friday evenings (or after Rangers games) ARE gargage cans!
"I said that you were intrusive because you were stating that other people shouldn't conduct business on the trains, period. But if
they aren't being noisy or disruptive, then they aren't bothering anyone, and the fact that you are bothered by the fact that they
are conducting business, in and of itself, means that you are not minding your own business (no pun intended). Not minding
one's own business=intrusive. However, I admit that "obnoxious" was overstating the matter and wasn't warranted, so I
apologize for using that word."
When you ride a train in close proximity to others you will hear the cell phones ring and the conversation. You have to be deaf not to hear them. This is NOT being intrusive. I take offense to your statement of not minding my own business. I do, however I'm not deaf. First of all, conducting business on cell phones can be supid because cell phone calls can be bugged. I saw a party with cell phone call another with a cell phone in the same car. Cell phones have caused an overload of phone numbers and the addition of new area codes. In Atlanta we have to dial 10 digits for all phone calls even in the same area code. Cell phone growth is a contributor this. Cell phones are definitely abused and over used in public places and cars. The cell phone service providers have their customers hooked and they can ask anything they want for their rates once their customers are hooked. Look at the cable TV business.
I get a kick when a cell phone user gets cut-off from their party when the train enters a tunnel. People have it too good and don't even appreciate it.
Do you have a Cell phone?
I see the great cell phone debate continues again today.
I myself don’t have one, and I myself don’t care who does feel the need to carry one. However, last week I made a trip on a southbound Brown Line train to the Loop from Belmont. There was a young man who received four phone calls within the short 20-minute trip. Not only was the ringing annoying, but his loud and foul conversations were disruptive to other passengers as well as me.
I’d like to offer that cell phone conversations on the train could be said to be like playing a radio without headphones. I recall once an operator on the Brown Line came out of the cab to tell a group of youths they could not sing on the train. I think they were just practicing some numbers and having fun. The operator said it was under the “no radio playing” rule. I felt that was a little heavy handed, but I’m not in the position to challenge a CTA employee.
However, like all rules on using the CTA (“no smoking, eating, drinking or radio playing permitted on the train”), one banning cell phone use would probably be ignored as all the rest.
To conclude the story however, as we pulled into the Merchandise Mart, a well dressed lady made a point to stop by the young man using the cell phone and told him “to stick his phone where the sun doesn’t shine and to grow up.” A few passengers applauded!
Amen to that! As for new area codes being added, fax machines are also responsible. We now have 10-digit dialing in Denver since last October, with overlapping 303 and 720 area codes. Basically, all new numbers issued since then have the 720 area code; 303 numbers didn't change. I'm sure that old 303 numbers which have been disconnected will eventually be recycled.
I do have a cell phone, but don't use it a whole lot. I keep it in the car in case of a breakdown. 20 years ago, it was CB radios. Never had one of those.
There was a quartet of sorts on an A train I was riding on last fall which sang the theme from Gilligan's Island, among other tunes. No one seemed to mind, not even the motorman. They got off at 59th St.
[As for new area codes being added, fax machines are also responsible. We now have 10-digit dialing in Denver since last October, with overlapping 303 and 720 area codes. Basically, all new numbers issued since then have the 720 area code; 303 numbers didn't change. I'm sure that old 303 numbers which have been disconnected will eventually be recycled.]
While it is true that many area codes are running out of numbers, requiring assignments of new area codes, for the most part this is *not* the result of increases in active telephone numbers (including beepers, cell phones, fax lines etc.) It mainly has to do with the number of companies offering telephone services within each market area. Each such company has the right to be assigned telephone numbers in blocks of 10,000 regardless of how many it actually has in use. A private corporation, I believe a division of Lockheed Martin, is responsible for this allocation process. As a result, if a particular geographic area has vigorous competition, it will find itself running short of numbers - and forced to add areas codes - more quickly than locations with less competition.
You're absolutely right about the blocks of 10,000 numbers. That was mentioned in a newspaper article in Denver last year, and the powers that be were looking into possibly restructuring the allocation of such blocks. Apparently, something was done because the implementation of the 720 area code was pushed back eight months from February to October of 1998. It's quite possible that there are still a lot of unused 303 numbers tied up in these allocated blocks.
I'LL DRINK TO THAT. Glad you too agree. Maybe John Bredin, Esq the attorney will agree. Do you hear us John????
I agree that nobody should be having "loud and foul" conversations on public transit, and that people who do should first be warned to stop and, if they persist, removed from the train. The jerk on the L deserved to be told off.
All I am saying is that NOT ALL CELL PHONE USERS DO THIS!! I ride the trains every day, and I see most people conversing in a normal voice, whether they are on the phone or talking to another passenger. These people are bothering nobody, except seemingly you. You seem to be bothered by the FACT that someone is using a phone, totally independent of whether they are being rude and loud or not.
In an earlier message, you wrote "GET RID OF THE CELL PHONES!" and not "Get rid of the noisy and rude talkers" or "Get rid of the loud cell phone users." This is what I object to: grouping all cell phone users together and tarring them with the actions of the jerks in the group.
I want you, Mr. Rosenthal, to answer honestly two questions:
1) In all your time riding trains, ALL the people on phones were loud and obnoxious? You've never encountered someone using a cell phone in a normal voice? (That's one question, though it's written as two.)
2) Do you believe in punishing an entire group (all cell phone users) for what SOME members (loud and rude cell phone users) do?
1) Yes I have seen people talking quietly on the cell phones. I hate the ringing of these phones.
2) I am not looking punishment, just want them to be banned from rapid transit trains. They should be treated like using radios and sound devices without earphones which are outlawed. People using them in cars have been known to cause accidents and this a problem.
Don't worry John, people are getting more and more dependent and hooked on these phones and the rates will go up like I said before. Besides, the number of channels and frequencies will run out. I have used cell phones on MARTA trains. What do you think of that??? I used them on test trains in the middle of the night to talk to the train control room. No passengers aboard. The cell phones cut-out and the quality is sometimes lousy. I think they stink.
Footnote: Even portable phones have their problems.
Let's end this debate and talk of real rapid transit.
[Don't worry John, people are getting more and more dependent and hooked on these phones and the rates will go up like I said before. Besides, the number of channels and frequencies will run out.]
What I suspect might happen before long is that public use of cell phones will become less common because the status element will be lost. Let's face it, at least some cell phone users like to talk on trains because they think it makes them feel like big shots (yes, I fully acknowledge that by no means all users are like that). But now cell phones have gotten cheap enough that they're within reach of almost anyone. You can even get them over the counter at 7-11. So we might see cell phones taking on a far less upscale, indeed even downscale image. That could translate into less ostentatious public use. We'll see.
I've been following this thread for a while, and even tho' it seems to be beat to death, I must add my comments as well. First, I must say I find most cell phone users on my 1 hour ride on the LIRR to be rude and annoying. This is most likely NOT because they are using a cell phone, but because they happen to be rude and annoying people anyway. They behave in a similar fashion to other passengers who are just as rude and annoying in their conversations with fellow riders. It just seems that some people have exhibitionist tendancies and enjoy subjecting other people to what they think is their wonderful wit and wisdom, whether they want to hear it or not. This is obvious by their constant looking around to see who is listening. Most of the topics of conversation seem to be last nights escapades or upcoming events to come, nothing of substance, need or neccesity.
Of course there are people who use their phones to make a quick call, for a shopping list or pickup plans etc. and these people seem to also be the ones who speak in a normal tone of voice, without all the pompous showmanship of the loudmouths. Another common factor seems to be general maturity. Many of the worst offenders seem to be offensive in other ways too, like feet on the seat, garbage left under the seat, etc.
So, my conclusion is that if you give a rude, obnoxious person a nice highly visible (audible) way to be even more obnoxious, they will use it. People who have some amount of consideration for anyone other than themselves will act in a considerate manner using a phone, as well as a subway/rail system.
Well said!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At the risk of ruffling a few more feathers, I'll offer my comments on cell phones and transit. Yes, I have a cell phone, provided by my employer as a business-related too (but which I am free to use, within reason, for personal use). No, I don't use it that often, either for incoming or outgoing calls - but when they need to find me, off-hours or weekends, I can be located. The only time it is turned off is when I'm attending shul on Friday night or at other services. I would NEVER use it for discussing competitive business information - as a manager I'm usually providing confirmation of someone else's decision or calling one of my technical people at home to provide assistance to someone in the field. And I never use language on the phone that I wouldn't use any other time - which means you won't hear any foul language from me. I don't shout, even though I am partly deaf - I don't need to hear me and the phone is sensitive enough to pick up normal speech (and filter out background noise) so the person on the other end doesn't have a problem either. In short, unless you looked at me and noticed that my lips were moving and saw the phone, you'd never know I was using it. Rude people are everywhere, unfortunately, and a cell phone can be used in a rude manner, but using a cell phone per se doesn't define rudeness.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I strongly agree with you, Mr. Rosenthal. I do not belive in "IN YOUR FACE< HOG MY SPACE" cell phone users. They are impolite and obnoxious. They also impart their "values" onto their kids. Is it any wonder that the world is in this sorry state.
A BIG THANK YOU. I am glad you agree with me. Enough is enough with the cell phones and I would be very scared of the next generation.
AGAIN THANKS!!!
Once again, I contrast this passionate debate about behaviour elsewhere with the reality of subway travel in New York. No cell phones. No loud radios -- just headphones. Little talking, and even that is very quiet, almost in a whisper.
Are New Yorkers more tolerant, or more restrained in their behavior, than those elsewhere? If so, it isn't evident above ground, only below.
I’d like to offer my observations regarding silent on CTA ‘L’ trains.
To talk or not to talk is definitely decided by the time of day and the route the train travels.
I use a combination of the Brown Line and the Red Line for my daily commutes. The Brown Line in the morning is definitely a “quiet ride”. Usually, if I see someone I know or work with I’ll nod and they will nod back. The only talking going on is by the operator over the PA. The exception can be students heading for Lincoln Park High School at Armitage. These kids haven’t “learned the rules yet” and sometimes are quiet loud much to the dismay of the commuters heading for work. By in large the morning trip is VERY QUIET.
The Red Line in the evening can be quiet loud, and not from the noise in the subway. Many college students use this line and they are not afraid to talk across the aisle.
I’ve always found that when riding home with co-workers on the Purple or Brown Line we usually always chatted. We had a favorite spot to stand so we could converse. In fact, many of the riders were more wide-awake and receptive to conversation.
This is just some observation that I’ve made in my many trips on the ‘L’. I suspect that much of the conversations you observe on the ‘L’ are due to the CTA’s service disruptions as Chicago riders can be very vocal about bad service.
I haven't been following this thread I just started. Why is a cell phone any worse than 2 people talking? I would rather set next to a cell phone user than a person who lets the kids climb all over, a crying baby or 2 people talking loudly. Yes I do own a cell phone and no I am not rich,
Sorry Dave, may be getting off the topic, and I tell my 2 sons this: some day all those still growing young people carrying those heavy backpacks will be a generation of people with bad backs in their 40's!
Larry, I don't mean to nit-pick. But you mention about the homeless being less nasty than in the 1980's. I must take issue with that. I get cursed out by them nightly. Why? Because on my run, several times in the course of the day, my trains get taken out of service for scheduled lay-up. This is because by the time I go home, only 2 trains run on the M shuttle. I have a bad reputation with those guys because they don't want to be disturbed and the City of NY/Transit Bureau make believe these people don't exist. All they do is chase them out of the stations onto the trains and it is up to the train service employees to get them off! And just think of it: I'll be going to the E, the capital of the homeless, while the WillyB is out of service! Hopefully, because the cold weather will be over with, most will be out of the subway.
(Homeless are as bad). I agree that substance abusers and the mentally ill are definately a problem in the way that the mentally retarded (like those who live around the corner) are not. Its a problem no one wants to deal with, because no one wants them in the neighborhood. I have a feeling that the subway is the homeless shelter no politician has to approve the site for -- one reason they keep the trains running overnight.
BTW, did you know that the share of the population in group homes is higher in the rest of the state than in NYC (1990 census)? (I toted up the numbers expecting to prove the opposite to accuse the rest of the state of dumping homeless in here, but it was not so). It seems that funding is available for the mentally ill out there than in here. NYC had fewer in group homes, but virtually state residents living on the street. Part of the reason may be a higher level of families with resources, with the means to care for their own.
But I have an in-law who works as a social worker up in the capital district, and she said that until a few years ago the state was paying for the anti-social kids of middle+ income parents to go to social work boarding schools for free -- at the same time that NYC kids were shipped home to death by their drug addicted parents. It was a great deal -- the 14 year old kids got out of the house, and the (generally divorced) parents got rid of them. She worked in one, but she now works with legitimately handicapped kids. Pataki started making people pay, and they were outraged.
I found a interesting book for sale in a trolley magazine.
"The New York Subway Interborough Rapid Transit" 220 pages. Anyone seen it ... is it worth the $12 asking price ?
I someone out there wants it, irrespective of what I decide, sent me a private e-mail & I'll tell you the source.
Mr t__:^)
I suspect this is the famous IRT Book which we have here on the site.
-Dave
Looks like its' worth the $12 asking price ... Thanks Dave
Mr t__:^)
It should be part of any subway fans library.I have the Arco hardcover edition , $8.00, 6 years ago. Fordhan University Press reprinted it at a much higher price. You should also have "Building the New Rapid Transit System-1915" and the IND book.
Here are three expresses that should be, but aren't:
1. White Plains Rd: Rush hour 5 run express to/from Gun Hill Rd to E.180
2. West End Line: Rush hour B run express from Bay Pkwy to 47/50
3. Broadway El: Z trains run express from Myrtle to Eastern Pkwy-Bdwy Jct
Comments and thoughts please...
While I agree with all your suggestions, for the B express from Bay Parkway, what would you do with the "M" during rush hours?
--Mark
The M would be local. The same way it is now.
Someone is gonna say F express...not me!!
I still want the NX back!! just from the railfan side (or subfan) that would be a great ride. Too young to remember it, even if my father did bring me on it....
Perhaps there would be enough ridership today to justify resurrecting the NX. Those who remember it have posted that it used to take forever for the NX to get from Coney Island to Brighton Beach, although the express run along the Sea Beach was fun.
Perhaps the NX might have been more successful if they could have started it from about Kings Highway on the Brighton Line south or so and had given it priority through Coney Island so that there would have been a perceptible time savings a larger pool of prospective patrons.
Here is my wish list and express suggestions.
A: Rockaway trains run express service between Euclid Ave - Rochaway Blvd.
B: run via West End Express (as written on service signs) M provide the Local service with peak direction B's for supplement. (Rush hours only.) expand service to Bedford Pk during middays to provide more Peak direction D Concourse Express.
D: see B.
F: Coney Island bound trains run express on the Culver Line between Bergen St - Church (and if possible peak direction to Kings Hwy.) Kings Hwy F's and G trains (extended to Church Ave) provide local service. [Queens Blvd Line] continue to run express after Union Turnpike during rush hours for now and extend the R or G trains to provide local service to 179 St.
G: see F
J: What's the Nassau Express? It only skips Bowery, like it is really a "useful" station. let it also skip Canal St. Only M train would stop there.
L: skip - stop service in Brooklyn would be great/
M: see B & J
N: Sea beach line: Nx renamed as the P train and run it express between Coney Island and 59 St. N would provide all local service. Continues like if it was a N train between 57 St - Canal St. After Canal run Express to 21 St, Queensbridge (if the tunnel was completed) or 57 St, Manhattan. From 57 St resumes as the N until Queensboro Plz then runs express to Ditmars Av (Astoria Express (Rush hours. N provides local service. If that fails N should run Express between Canal St - 57 St.
NX: see N
Q: rush hours extend to Coney Island.
R: see F
S: Franklin shuttle: renamed as the T train and provide rush hour service on the Brighton Line (Franklin - Coney Island) The only wish the stations were made for eight cars.
42 St shuttle: rename as the 8 train
Rockaway shuttle: re - rename as the H and rush hours only to Broad Channel other times Between Far Rockaway - Rockaway Pk.
Z:should run express between Myrtle and Eastern Pky. Extend to Coney Island via Brighton Local, should expreiment to see when the bridge is out between Essex - Coney Island.
1/9: 9 trains should run express peak directions between 96 St - 137 St.
2/5: skip stop service between Flatbush Ave - President St. (5 trains stop only at Flatbush Av, Church Av, and President St.- probably impossible.) Midday White Plains 5 express and also some should serve to 241 St via Express.
4: Like the F, some 4 should run express on the Jerome line all day.
So what do yout think? Comments and suggestions?
Z suggestion would be interesting. The NX would be interesting too but I believe one of those express tracks will be destroyed. I think the 2/5 skip-stop would be impossible. The L skip stop is iffy. They do need to rename the Franklin Shuttle. Also the Rockaway Shuttle. The one I like the best is probably the 9 running express from 96-137.
Two of your three (White Plains and Broadway-Brooklyn) had express service until the TA, in its usual fashion, "improved" them out of existence.
Let's get back 24-hour express service on 4th Avenue and Broadway before even more passengers decide to go elsewhere.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
My comment is that that B will probably interfere with D & Q service when it's switching tracks to head south again.
Wayne
After 36ST, the B will run to 9Av and express afterward. How would this conflict with D and Q service?
During the 60's the (5) thru express did run express from Gun Hill Rd. to 180th St. When and why was this stopped?
Bob Sklar
It was probably an "service improvement" implemented by the TA. ;->
The TA’s history of eliminating express service is notorious. However, they are not the only transit authority to do so. The CTA systematically eliminated their unique A/B skip-stop service (also used on the MFSE - SEPTA and I think in NY on the J Line).
Anyway, the A/B skip-stop system provided express service for ALL passengers along the line, not just those fortunate to use an Express Station.
when the path loop at wtc was built, was the connection to the former hudson terminal loop dismantled? i havent seen any tunnel or track stubs as path enters or leaves wtc.
Peter Dougherty's new edition of the "Tracks of the New York City Subway" includes tracks plans of Path at WTC, as well as SIRT and subway yard maps. I don't see any stubs, but that doesn't mean there weren't any.
Mr t__:^)
If I remember correctly, the current track loop lies outside the former track loop at WTC. Ride in the back car as you leave WTC and I do think you can see where the track once went, although it is walled off now. Someone told me that the former Hudson Terminal station is being used as a data vault, someone else said it's a truck loading dock, I am not really sure which. I'll bet Dave Pirmann knows.
Wayne
I've often wondered what it looks like behind that
wall where the token booth is now located in the IND
terminal at the WTC. There is a link on this website to
Joe Brennan's list of abandoned stations. That's probably
where you read that it was being used as a truck loading
area.Abandoned Subway Stations
Scroll down to
find
Hudson Terminal.
I believe that behind the wall where the token booth is located is what remains of the old stairs to the SW corner of Church and Vesey. It probably would surface in the parking lot or out in the widened Vesey Street.
I just read a interesting article in the Winter 1999 issue of Cubic's Collection Point, a quartly newsletter (It use to be when ever they had enough news to brag about, now I guess it quarterly).
"... customer service intercom was installed at the Franklin Street station ... a pilot demonstration ... system incorporates video as well as voice communications, allowing station attendants (somebody please tell them that they are Station Agents) to see and hear patrons needing assistance ... will streamline the gate operation of UNMANNED stations from REMOTE locations." The author of the article is on the sales staff here in NYC.
BTW, I get this because I'm a CUSTOMER, so I can't think of any reason why I shouldn't be able to SHARE this info with a FEW of my friends.
Mr t__:^)
I think it would require the same amount of personnel to sit in token booths (no, sorry, are they "Customer assistance booths"?) than it would to sit in a room and watch cameras of the station. So why change the system as it is now - it works.
No, less. You can have 1 person watching 4 or 5 stations, instead of the 1 (or more) per station as it is now.
-Hank
We now work in a "Station Service Booth". All public advertisements for major G.O.s now tell the customers to ..."go to the Station Booth..."
Now the cameras: Several stations might work if:
1-They keep the monitors working and clearly identify where the camera is located (ie station 1 North entrance).
2- They keep the cameras clean so we dont see dust film instea of the station area- this includes removing stickers over the cameras!
3- Better resolution. Many camera monitors I've seen are so fuzzy they are our of focus!.
4-Automate the talk back button to lock the monitor on the location activating the button. I've worked busy stations with talk back boxes and at times I have had *eight* false alarms at once! They push trhe button to literally see "if they work" or it may be some micreants having some mischief at our expense.
now personal opinion: the above will never happen-- too much money.
**opinions while based on actual obsrvations, are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
Hello,
I am trying to help 5 friends who will be flying into La Guardia Airport. My friends are coming to New York City from Frankfurt, Germany. They will be staying at a B&B in "Newburgh".....so what train systems do they take to get their???? Is there anywhere on the internet I can find this information (specific train route, times, rates, etc.) or can someone please help me with that information?????
Thank you!
ShortLine has bus service from Port Authority Terminal in NYC to Newburgh, NY. Try 212-736-4700 for schedule info. If your friends are traveling light, the public transit route from LaGuardia would be the Q-33 bus to the last stop, where they would tranfer (for free with Metrocard) to the E train to 42nd Street at 8th Avenue. If they have alot of luggage, I believe there is an airport bus service from LaGuardia to the Port Authority Bus Terminal for around $10. (If they share 2 cabs, the fare to Port Authority may not be too bad. Cab all the way to Newburgh would probably be prohibitive.)
[I am trying to help 5 friends who will be flying into La Guardia Airport. My friends are coming to New York City from Frankfurt, Germany. They will be staying at a B&B in "Newburgh".....so what train systems do they take to get their???? Is there anywhere on the internet I can find this information (specific train route, times, rates, etc.) or can someone please help me with that information?????]
Unfortunately, trains no longer run to Newburgh (though there is an interesting abandoned station, but I digress). At any rate, the best way to get there by train is to take Metro North's Hudson line from Grand Central Terminal in Manhattan to Beacon station. Beacon is just across the Hudson River from Newburgh, and your friends should be able to get taxis to their place. Metro North schedules can be found through the MTA Web site at www.mta.nyc.ny.us.
The other answers are pretty good but as an aside I suspect if they are flying in from Frankfurt they will be arriving at JFK not La Guardia... La G. doesn't handle a whole lot of international traffic.
-Dave
In fact, LGA handles no international traffic, except for flights to/from Canada, where U.S. Customs is handled on Canadian soil. There are no Customs facilities for passengers at LGA.
It's not altogether uncommon for passengers from Europe to fly to the US on an airline that doesn't "hub" at JFK or Newark, to go through that airline's hub's customs when they get in the US, and then to catch a flight to LGA. Example: US Air probably has a Frankfurt flight to Philadelphia and/or Pittsburgh, where a LaGuardia connection may be made. Sometimes that's the best way to get the cheapest fares if all the cheap seats are sold out on the non-stops to NYC.
Does anyone know where I can view photos of 6th Ave. and 9th Ave. El
stations, that would show ornate features, such as station houses,
canopies, railings (stairway and platform), etc.? I've seen many
photos of the 2nd and 3rd Ave. Els, since I have books about them,
but I haven't seen much of the 6th and 9th Ave. El stations, and I'm
just wondering if the stations were similar in design to the 2nd and
3rd Ave. El stations. Also, Will there ever be books released that
will focus on the 6th and 9th Ave. Els, since there are already books
on the 2nd and 3rd Ave. Els? It seems for some reason that the 2nd
and 3rd Ave. Els get the most attention.
I want to thank everyone for all their help with transportation suggestions for my German friends who will traveling back and forth while on vacation in New York City to Newburgh. It was my fault I mentioned the wrong airport and ya'all did correct me. They are flying into JFK and need transportation-(bus or train) from there to Newburgh.
Thank you again for all your help!
Sincerely, Lisa
From JFK to the Port Authority Terminal, the best route without too much luggage would be the free P.A. bus to the Howard Beach subway stop (same bus as for long-term parking), and then the A train to 42nd Street station in Manhattan, right at the Port Authority Bus Terminal, where they would catch the ShortLine bus to Newburgh, NY. If they've got too much luggage to drag on the subway, there should be an airport bus from JFK that stops at the Port Authority Bus Terminal.
I was analyzing a subway map yesterday and I was wondering: how come the 4,5,6 does not run on Lexington Ave from 14St?
While we are on the 14St issue: How come the Brooklyn bound trains @ 14St goes slow when exiting the station? I know there is a curve but the City Hall bound 6 zip right by. Is this one of those timer signals like at Franklin St and 50St on the West side IRT?
There is a gap filler at the downtown platform. The trains are told to "slow until gap filler signal clears" (sign near the gap filler signal)
[I was analyzing a subway map yesterday and I was wondering: how come the 4,5,6 does not run on Lexington Ave from 14St?]
Lexington Avenue doesn't go all the way to 14th Street. It ends at Gramercy Park, at 21st Street. Irving Place continues the line of Lexington south from 20th but ends at 14th Street. And don't forget that the original IRT ran only as far north as 42nd Street, where it turned to the west along what's now the Shuttle route. The line along Lexington, north of Grand Central, is a later addition.
Actually, the 4, 5 and 6, heading south from uptown, turn off Lexington Avenue at Grand Central, and follow Park Avenue and Park Avenue South south of 42nd Street. That is why there are sharp turns both into and out of the Grand Central Station on the 4, 5 and 6.
That's right. Grand Central on the 4, 5, and 6 is laid out diagonally in relation to the terminal itself, Park Ave., and Lexington Ave. Once the tracks reach the original ROW under Park Ave. and the Murray Hill tunnel, it's a nice, straight run all the way to Union Square - the only ruler-straight stretch along the entire Contract One segment, if you exclude the portion under 42nd St.
[That's right. Grand Central on the 4, 5, and 6 is laid out diagonally in relation to the terminal itself, Park Ave., and Lexington Ave. Once the tracks reach the original ROW under Park Ave. and the Murray Hill tunnel, it's a nice, straight run all the way to Union Square - the only ruler-straight stretch along the entire Contract One segment, if you exclude the portion under 42nd St.]
Unfortunately, 4 and 5 expresses don't get to take advantage of the line's straightness during morning rush hour; they normally slow to almost a crawl around 23rd Street. I believe that the long dwell times resulting from the curved platforms at 14th Street are responsible.
Doesn't the Contract One line straighten out on Broadway between 107th and 168th Streets. Broadway stops veering west at the point where it meets West End Ave., and stays pretty straight from there up to the beginning of Washington Heights.
There is a timer entering 14 St-UQ on the Downtown Express
In retrospect, they could have built the Union Square station in a straight line the way, say, Grand Central was done, and put the curves in the tunnels themselves. Ditto for Brooklyn Bridge. Luckily, stations were built straight as much as possible on Dual Contracts and IND lines. It was an important lesson learned from the Contract One line.
Do I understand the use of the series 4000 trailers correctly? In the 1940's If I were to observe a three car BX set of Standards in a station or yard and the first car was numbered 2434, and the last car was numbered 2435, am I correct in assuming that the trailer in between should be numbered 4017?
Karl: Thats correct. They were numbered in sequence 2400-4000-2401 to 2498-4049-2499.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thank You! I thought I remembered it that way.
Karl B.
Can anyone provide me with a plan of the tracks into and out of Camden Town station on the Northern Line. I used to have one in a book but it has become lost. The plan is very complex.
Thanks
Simon
SIMON: here it is:
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg
[ http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/northern.txt ]
CLIVE'S UNDERGROUND LINE GUIDES. It's in plain text but is very descriptive. They have a separate page on each and every LU line, along with opening dates, and other pertinent information. You may have to play out the diagramme given on paper to get the feel for it, but it is all there.
Click on this link to go right now.
Wayne
Camden Town is considered "THE" junction on the Northern Line, with the Charing Cross Branch and the "CITY" (Bank) Branch converging and then diverging towards Edgware or High Barnet/Mill Hill East......
I think i've got an old map somewhere , check your e-mail for mail!!
Regards
Rob :^)
Where can I obtain information about the new rail link to Newark? The scant mention on this message board constitutes my entire knowledge of the project...
Also, what is going on exactly with LaGuardia subway service? I remember reading somewhere that the MTA has decided to undertake the project. Is this the case?
Thanks a lot.
Jordan
The former Pennsylvania Railroad, now Amtrak, Right of way runs on the western boundary of Newark Airport. However, there was no station or access to the airline terminals. NJ Transit is building a station on the Amtrak line. It will serve Amtrak and NJ Transit trains to Newark and New York . To get from the airline terminals to the train the existing Newark airport people mover is being extended to the new RR station. the project is costing $415 million and should be complete in 2002.
The MTA has been studying if it is a good idea to run trains to Laguardia Airport since 1965. They haven't decided yet. But even if they want to they don't have any money. I think that the Port Authority's recent start of people mover access to JFK airport and the MTA's latest study on trains to Laguardia is in response to New Jerseys bold move to improve airport access in the New York Metro area.
It has often been stated that the IND system was "overbuilt". Other than the Crosstown line from Church to Bergen Street, where there has been a lot of talk recently about the need for restored express service, I for one, don't really think that the IND was overbuilt.
I also think that the short IND Second System vestiges such as Court Street Schemerhorn or 2nd Avenue-Houston should be considered, either because at the time they were built there was definite plans for their, although no funding, to build what would have been well-utilized routes if they were there today.
So, who can make the argument that the IND was overbuilt?
The only parts of the IND that may have been overbuilt to some extent were the mezzanine areas, which have, where appropriate, been pruned back some.
I hope that they extend the Jamaica line eastward someday.
Wayne
The argument that the IND was overbuilt is that other things were not done. Which would you rather have today: the third track on the Concourse line, the express tracks on the F, and the express tracks on 6th Avenue? Or the 2nd Avenue subway? We have a half-finished system. If they knew what was coming, they would have built a scaled down, finished system.
Although I might somewhat agree with your point about the Concourse express track, I am sure that many, and probably most, subway patrons in the Bronx would not. But, your statement that the 6th Avenue Express tracks are part of an overbuilt IND intimates that you believe that a two-track line could handle all of its current volume, and could have done it easily in the past. THAT SURE SOUNDS LIKE NEWS TO ME!
Aren't there as many as 45 trains per hour in each direction for most of the weekday service on Avenue of the Americas. And, are not many, if not all, of these trains jammed to the gills like the ones that I have seen in the past. Furthermore, from what my aunt told me about the pre-Chrystie days when she worked at the Empire State Building and went to 34th Street after connecting from the Fulton Street Line in Brooklyn each day, it was no picnic back even in the mid 1960s when the BB terminated at 34th Street and the D and the F shared the local track.
Arguably, an IND connection to the Eighth Avenue (Central Park West) Line could have easily been made, and perhaps should have been made, from the BMT Broadway Line at the north end back in the 1930s. But that would not have serviced Brooklyn riders at all, unless the Schermorhorn Street Stub could have been fed into the Whitehall Street complex.
Overall, I think that a two-track line Sixth Avenue Line would have been a mess on a magnitude worse than Lexington is now and thus, in a different Earth, we would be all singing the blues about what can be done about increasing capacity there.
Finally, there is no doubt that the 2nd Avenue Line was always and is now desperately needed, and it has been a set of unfortunate circumstances, like a world war, that have prevented it from being built in the past.
I, for one, sure hope that someday very soon the politicians stop giving it lip service and can get at least a two track, and more desirably a four track Second Avenue Subway physically built at a rate faster than the one mile per ten years or so that the Queens Boulevard Connection has taken.
(Need the 6th Avenue Express Tracks).
Let's assume that people knew what was coming. They could have kept 6th Avenue a two track line, and built another two-track line on 2nd. The number of tracks would be the same and today, and the number of trains would be higher (since only the F runs on the local today), but the distribution of service would be better. The fact that we have unused capacity on the Broadway express, the 8th Avenue local, and 6th Avenue local -- and a desperate need for service east of 5th Avenue -- says it all.
The problem is hindsight is awonderful thing and no one at thetime(1929) would have seen WWII coming.I suspect that if they had scaled things down ,the queens blvd line would have suffered (either 2 track or even nothing at all.
While agreeing with Larry and others re: building the second ave. line, I feel it was indefensible not completing the IND Jamaica line east of 179th St. This is a line that just stops! At the same time, you have oodles of bus lines feeding into Jamaica and polluting the air and creating all kinds of traffic problems.
They should have also extended the Flushing line past Main St. and out to the Bayside-Douglaston area for the same reasons.
Carl M
Too late for the Flushing Line extension: they have just opened a new entrance right where the tracks now end. I can't see them tearing this new construction up! Now, for the Hillside Avenue line: that is another story. They SHOULD extend this all the way to Little Neck Parkway, four tracks, express, with a possible local extension to the City Line. Stations: 188th, 197th, Francis Lewis, 212th, Springfield (express), Winchester/Creedmoor, Cross Island (west side), 249th, then Little Neck (express). Local extension: 260th and 267th/Langdale.
I even have the tile colors picked out (group I purples, group II teals and aquas, group III pinks)
Just a dream...
Wayne
No, actually, the MTA building a brand new station exit at Main Street and then immediately tearing it up would be perfectly in character.
Still, the odds are the line will go west towards the Javits Center before it ever goes east in Queens.
(Re eastern Queens subway extensions) Why duplicate LIRR lines? If the LIRR to GCT line is built, it will be possible to add service and stations on the LIRR, something I think many in those neighborhoods would prefer.
If anywhere needs more subways, its densely built Western Queens. The bigots and the budget killed the line through SW Queens to the 63rd St tunnel, but something like that could be revived. I think a line out of the underused 14th St tunnel and out Metropolitan/Grand St would be the most direct, with transfers available for travel to Midtown or Downtown.
I've never been out all the way to 179th on the F and don't know anything about the area. Is there some logical reason why the line stops there (e.g. major residential or business location), or does it just stop?
(Why stop at 179th?) The line just stops. It is at the bottom of a hill, with middle income areas south of the hills and an affluent area (Jamaica Estates) up the hill to the north. Unlike the rest of the area, Hillside Avenue has apartment buildings, with the density matching the availability of the subway. The apartment buildings extend past 179th, on the assumption the subway would be extended.
This line doesn't do much for those on the north side of the hill, where there are lots of garden apartment developments (Elechester, Glen Oaks). There isn' t much rail service between the hill and the Port Washington Branch, far to the north. That area seems like a logical place for a transit line, although commuter rail may be better.
When the IND was originally built, the Queens line ended at 169th Street for locals, Parsons Boulevard for express. It was extended to 179th Street after the fact; the station opened in 1950.
Maybe a better idea would be to go east as far as Springfield then divert it to parallel or run beneath the Grand Central Parkway out to Little Neck or to North Shore Towers. GCP is only about 500 yards north of Hillside Avenue at Springfield Boulevard.
Wayne
I fail to see why anyone would complain about trains "jammed to the gills" on 6th Avenue--it was done deliberately by the TA as part of destroying the old BMT. If Brighton and West End Expresses were still on Broadway, a lot of the 6th Avenue crowding wouldn't be there. Pre-Chrystie, Broadway had five services and now it has two all day and into the evening--it used to have four overnight and now it has one.
I'm still waiting for the announcement that the Broadway express tracks will be paved over to run a bus service (extra fare if you're coming from Brooklyn, though), with the Montague Street tunnel to follow. That would be consistent with the way the TA treats most of the old BMT.
On the subject of Central Park West and a connection from Broadway, don't forget CPW was once talked about as a northerly extension of the BMT, but (ancient history now!) by opting for a unneeded line on 8th Avenue the Hyland/Laguardia planners got rid of an IRT line on 9th Avenue and prevented the BMT from expanding, in one stroke doing the dirty on both of the traction companies.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Here is a solution to the lack of subway service to Eastern Queens. Instead of the costly and time-consuming extension of the Flushing IRT from Main Street/Roosevelt Avenue, how about developing an LRV system serving many of the major arterial streets in the region and have them feed into either Main Street or the Shea Stadium Station on the 7 Line. A Northern Blvd. line could run out to the City Line and perhaps serve as a "spine" for other lines which could spur off of it at major intersections such as Francis Lewis Blvd., Clearview Expressway Service Road (East Side), and Bell Blvd. Also a Kissena Bvld. Line could serve the South Flushing area and a line along College Point Blvd. could serve patrons both north and south of Roosevelt Avenue. In fact the College Point line could be extended into either Kew Gardens or Forest Hills and also serve as a connector to the IND Subway.
Similiar lines could be deployed along other major corridors in Western Queens including Astoria and Northern Blvds. and also along 21st Street leading to the major transit hub that is the current terminius of the 63rd Street Line and eventually Queens Plaza.
Light rail would basically duplicate existing high-density bus services and because it provides a two rather than a one seat ride, the NIMBY's who fear hordes of subway riders in their neighborhoods may be more agreeable.
As for a terminal, I would either use the land which is currently occupied by the parking field across from the 109th Pct. Station House on Union Street or have the lines terminate in the Shea Parking lot on the south side of Roosevelt Avenue. Moving the main terminal there would give the TA more turnaround options for the 7 and could guard agianst problems faced when a switch breakdown is encountered at Main Street.
How about a few Monorails? After moving across in several corridors, they could run along the center of Queens Blvd until the #7 hooks in, then in the Sunnyside Yard and onto Queens Plaza, where one change for a brief subway or LIRR connection. After 63rd St, Queens will have more room in tunnels than on trunk lines, and perhaps some subway lines could origniate at the monorail terminal. And the borough just hasn't been as hip since the early 1960s, when the Beatles played Shea and a Monoral ran at the Worlds Fair. They say monorails are cheaper, although the capacity is less.
When I think Monorail, I also think that it might be faster to take the tram back across West Road from the Main Street USA Entrance. But it has some merit.
Or how about getting those cars from the Futerama ride at the GM building and using them for zero carbon monoxide transportation. (OK, the 2 mph speed might be a little slow for commuting, but it packed in the crowds back in 1964)
guys,a monorail would be a waste of of money.stick to light rail.it's tried,tested expandable and adaptable.does a monoraill have all these qualities?
(Light rail is tried and tested). But it stops at the light.
do you honestly think that that a monorail is a better trailway technology than light rail or convential heavy rail?.How many takers have there been for a monorail as a a serious alternative to above modes in any major city in the world.Have fun trying to find one.
Sorry,should read "railway" not" trailway" and "conventional" not "convential".
Hey, no sweat. We know what you were trying to say.
"How many takers have there been for a monorail as a a serious alternative to above modes in any major city in the world."
A few years ago, the voters in Seattle adopted a referendum that created the Elevated Transit Company and mandated that a monorail system shaped roughly like an X serve particular locations in the city. Yes, the referendum spells out routing and station locations in some detail, and is not just a general authorization to build a monorail system. (I don't think the law authorizing a transit system should be so detailed as to say where the lines and stations will be -- that is for later planning.) The system has not yet been built, but the referendum REQUIRES that it be built, not just authorizing it.
The problem with this is that there was already a regional transit agency, Puget Sound Regional Transit, with a plan for commuter and light rail for the Seattle-Tacoma region. There was no need for the citizens to create a duplicate system, since the "Sound Transit" plan was being implemented at the time of the referendum: post-planning work, such as negotiation with the freight railway companies, had already commenced on the commuter rail, and the downtown Transit Tunnel was in existence.
The Elevated Transit Company is at www.elevated.org
The Puget Sound RTA is at www.soundtransit.org
Incidentally, I agree with you that monorail, except over short distances as at amusement parks and fairgrounds, is an expensive boondoggle. But at least one major city HAS adopted monorail as a transit system.
The problem traditionally found with monorails has been switching. Older ones have the full structures moving while newer ones (as at Newark) have shorter, flip-over switches, which is at least an ingenious if not a real solution to the switching problem. But if you think there are problems with steel-rail switches freezing in cold weather, imagine the problems with monorails. Is there any northern city (really northern, like cities in Sweden, Finland, or Russia, not places like Newark) that has an outdoor monorail?
As I recall, the Seattle referendum was a typical West Coast "vote-for-anything-that-sounds-like-it-will-be-cheaper" initiative, ill thought out and with politicized anti-rail sentiment.
Also, doesn't Tokyo have an airport monorail running into downtown that's separate from the other operations?
There is also Wuppertal in Germany, which I think is the world's oldest monorail still operating, on its second or third generation of cars (my Merriam-Webster's Tenth Collegiate gives the population of Wuppertal, which is in the Ruhr Valley, at 393,381; for comparison, Seattle's is 516,259).
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I like that idea! Eastern Queens is so full of NIMBYs that no new underground subway lines will ever be built unless they move to another planet or something. And thanks to our friend the FRA, which is itching to turn the entire New York City subway system into a railroad, we won't have any trains operating on existing RR right-of way, either. But an LRV system just might be the answer. I think possibly a tunnel to Manhattan and under 57th Street for the LRVs should also be looked at. 57th Street is horrifying to look at during rush hour and most other times as well. Much of that traffic is due to express buses from Queens. LRV could help relieve much of that nasty traffic. Why can't the geniuses at the MTA think of this?
Heck--build it to Air Train specs and run it down, say, Kissena or Parsons Boulevard through Jamaica, and we can link the airports too. Imagine the dismay of the airlines when AT turns out to be good for something.
Keep in mind that the 63rd St. connector is being built in a highly developed area, and calls for relocation of utility lines, as well as digging a tunnel. Granted, this was also done during the early days of subway construction in Manhattan. But you also have the task of tying the connection into an existing line.
The main reason the Queens line was so easy to build was that back in the 30s, most of Queens was undeveloped. Heck, as wide as Queens Blvd. is, they could have built a six-track line with super-express service.
The IND lines were built with good intentions; fate dealt that system a cruel blow. It became a struggle just to finish the Phase 1 portion.
One comment about Broadway express service: I agree that it would be nice to have, and I'm all for it, but if you run the N as an express between Canal St. and 57th St. the way things are now, it would have to merge with the R at both ends, which could cause delays, which would make any time savings a moot point.
BTW, the Chrystie St. connection took nearly a decade to complete, too.
(BTW, Christie St took a decade too). I know I've asked this before but no one had the answer. What did all that cost?
Wrong question=wrong answer. The IND was built the "right" way--when you have the street torn up build for the future--you may never get the bucks again. The fact that the current TA can't or won't use the B'way BMT express tracks bears no relation to design criteria in the 30's. Note that in the sixties BMT stations were all being lengthened to accomodate the ten car trains that IND was built for from the get go. As to the famous extra stairs and generous mezzanines these were mostly (2nd & Houston, etc.) for the convenience of transfers to the Phase II lines. Yes of course I want the notorious 2nd Ave line!!! After all the money has been appropriated twice only to squandered either due to fare politics or massive inflation(read economic treason by the financial sector). As to "Chrystie" route changes, when first implemented they were an effort at improving run times to Midtown. The general slowdown of all lines in the intervening years is dumb and inexcusable, but that is an operating issue. I believe for instance that running the N as an express both in Bklyn and above Canal would be far better service for all concerned AND should save enough time each direction to allow the present equipment/crews to make more runs per day. (Assume real speed as express)
I agree: you have to take both Phase 1 and Phase 2 of the IND to put things in perspective. It simply made sense to put in provisions for future lines while everything was torn up, since the plans had already been made. Here, you would include the Roosevelt Ave. terminal station and the middle track at Bedford-Nostrand. Had the stock market crash and resulting Depression not occurred, it stands to reason that the Phase 2 lines would have been built.
I can think of two examples of possible overbuilding: the lower levels at 42nd St. and Bergen St, plus mezzanines at local stations. Here's another thought: had the 6th Ave. line not been built for some reason, we would be talking about never-used (and possibly walled-off) trackways at 7th Ave.-53rd St., not to mention south of 59th St.-Columbus Circle.
One thing is puzzling: if station shells were built for South 4th St. and Fulton St.-Utica Ave., how come this wasn't done at East Broadway and 2nd Ave.-Houston?
how come this wasn't done at East Broadway and 2nd Ave.-Houston?
I know the passageways for connections that never came to be were built at East Broadway in anticipation of another intersecting line. The trackways weren't though, perhaps because of the station's proximity to the BMT?
--Mark
There is a piece in Trains Online Newswire about attempts to build a new Hudson tunnel as well as a
GCT to Penn Station tunnel.(scroll about 1/4 way down)
I would be surprised if this would actually be built, but I am still of the opinion that new tunnels and new lines are becoming a necessity in the area.
How about the woman who used to ride the IRT Flatbush Express (#5 train) every morning spouting the Gospel at the top of her lungs for most of the trip through Brooklyn?
More than once I wanted to put a muzzle on that lunatic rider!
I totally agree we all should be able to have freedom of peace as well as freedom of speech! I will help you buy the muzzle.
Because of all the discussion about this once great movie, I sat down to watch it this morning. In the first 6 minutes, I found 3 critical continuity errors.
FIRST
When Pelham 1 2 3 comes into Grand Central, it inexplicably comes in on the express track. Clearly, there is a local train across the platform which leads to errors 2 and 3.
SECOND
Just before and as the train stops, you can clearly see the car numbers of the 'train' across the platform. One was car #2973 (an R-10) coupled to car #7339 (adjacent the C/Rs position).
3rd & WORST
In the very next scene, #7339 is the new lead motor of Pelham 1 2 3.
I am now going back to watching but I get the idea that the 'slo' and 'Rew' keys on my remote are in for a work-out today.
Hasn't anybody else noticed that the very first time you see Pelham 1-2-3 arrive in the station, the window on the storm door is solid (like an R-26-R-36) -- not a sash window like every scene after that?
Yep, I sure did.
Als, I think Garber told the people from the Tokyo system that each car was 72 feet long.
Who cares, it is a great movie.
Thanks for your input!
AMC (American Movie Classics) showed The Wrong Man once again late last Saturday night, and this time I taped it. Well, all of it except for maybe the last 10 or 15 minutes, when the VCR ran out of tape. The subway sequence is at the very beginning, a few minutes into the movie. The lower level at 5th Ave. is clearly discernible, although the train markings are not. Most of the sounds associated with the R-1/9s can be heard, especially the moaning and groaning of the traction motors. There is a shot looking through the storm door window of the train as it pulls into what appears to be Roosevelt Ave., where Henry Fonds gets off. The familiar throbbing of the air compressors is heard. "Express" and "Local" placards are visible.
There are a few views of the Flushing line, and the trains which can be seen do appear to consist of R-15s. There are subway rumblings sprinkled in throughout the movie.
I almost forgot: I did manage to spot one car number in the floor-level camera shot at Roosevelt Ave.: R-4 #495.
And as Fonda gets off the train you can see the Conductor behind him,up on the steps between cars!
You know, I didn't catch that. I'll have to look again. Too bad they never zoomed in on the conductor as he worked the trigger boxes.
BTW, you can see the conductor peering out from between the cars on the train in Nighthawks as Rutger Hauer is holding the woman at knifepoint while Stallone is taking aim at him.
And, as I previously mentioned, 28th St. is not the real McCoy (23rd St, on the other hand, is). Since the tilework is definitely IND-style, chances are that one of the these locations was used:
One of the outer tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, with a fake wall put in for the movie;
Court St., also with a fake wall between the tracks.
42nd St. lower level, although it's unlikely.
I also suspect that the real 51st St. station wasn't used, either. Case in point:
There is a substantial gap between the train and the edge of the platform as the train pulls in.
The pillars have "51st St." placards, in the same style as "28th St." Real pillar placards only carry the street number, with no "St." or "Ave." reference.
Garber doesn't tell the directors of the Tokyo subway that every IRT car is 72 feet long. That honor goes to conductor Bud Carmody, as he rattles off what he knows to Mr. Mattson after they leave 51st St. Garber does, however, tell the directors about what sort of crimes the TA police have to deal with: robbery, assault, murder, drunkenness, illness, vandalism, mishigast, abusiveness, sexual molestation, exhibitionism, etc.
One of my other favorite quotes is the deputy mayor's assessment of the public's opinion of whether or not the mayor should agree to pay the ransom:
"You know what's going to happen. The Times is going to support you; the News is going to knock you; the Post is going to take up both sides at the same time; the rich will support you, likewise the blacks, and the Puerto Ricans won't give a shit. So, come on, Al, quit stalling."
Yes, you're right about the 72 foot long subway cars. Now I remember, the conductor who siad it seemed to be relatively new on the job and the veteran conductor was advising him to study for the motorman's exam.
Wayne
Yep, and right after that, Carmody proceeds to announce the wrong station:
Mattson: Now, you take my advice, kid: you serve your six months, and then you put in for the motorman. Watch it now, we comin' in.
Carmody (into mike): 59th St.
Mattson: No, it ain't.
Carmody: 51st St., sorry, this station is 51st St.
Mattson: Never say you're sorry, kid. Someone's gonna come up and hit you in your damn nose.
Once they got rolling again:
Mattson: If I was you, I'd start studying for that motorman exam right now.
Carmody: To tell you the truth, Mr. Mattson, I have been. Wanna hear something? Every car on the IRT is 72 feet long; costs $150,000, weighs 75,000 pounds.
Interestingly enough, the novel says each car cost a quarter of a million dollars apiece, which may be stretching things a bit, and also gives the length of each car as being 72 feet.
Incidentally, the car used in the movie, #7339 was an R-22. We all know it's only 51 ft. 1/2" long but it cost $106,699 and with the GE propulsion package weighed 77,005 Lbs.
I believe the out-of-place sequences in the movie were shot at the Brooklyn Court Street station, location presently of the New York Transit Museum. Speaking of out-of-place, did anyone see the TV remake? It was painful. I think they used the new LA "Metro." Enough said.
Nope, they used Toronto. Check the archives, you'll find some extensive nitpicking.
-Hank
I will. Thanks!
I'm new to this BB, so I hope I'm not repeating earlier discussion. One aspect of the proposed 2nd avenue completion that I find interesting is the question of what happens to property values along the way. The intention may be to provide better service to lower- income, transit-dependant communities, but one very predictible effect will be gentrification. I can't imagine what would happen to the East Village, the Lower East Side or East Harlem once rent pressures start building. (It might become especially interesting if rent control were to end; no, I don't want to start a discussion of that here.) About the only limit on gentrification might be on the blocks immediately surrounding housing projects (see, for example, Chelsea). Thoughts?
[I'm new to this BB, so I hope I'm not repeating earlier discussion. One aspect of the proposed 2nd avenue completion that I find interesting is the question of what happens to property values along the way. The intention may be to provide better service to lower- income, transit-dependant communities, but one very predictible effect will be gentrification. I can't imagine what would happen to the East Village, the Lower East Side or East Harlem once rent pressures start building. (It might become especially interesting if rent control were to end; no, I don't want to start a discussion of that here.) About the only limit on gentrification might be on the blocks immediately surrounding housing projects (see, for example, Chelsea).]
Gentrification already has begun in the East Village and on the Lower East Side. I don't think much has happened in East Harlem, although that indeed might very well change if the Second Avenue line ever opens.
On the other hand, the neighborhood impact of the line would be limited in the Upper East Side, even though that area would stand to benefit the most, simply because it's already stratosphereically expensive.
There is a 50 year history in New York of two circles moving outward. The first is neighborhoods being passed down to the poor as their housing reaches 50 years of age (unless it was built for the rich and has many amenities). That wave is moving through the outer areas of the city and out to the suburbs. The second is areas closer to Manhattan being reoccupied by the better-off. That wave is moving through "Brownstone" Brooklyn, Willimasburg, Washington Heights and even parts of the Concourse. The first wave moves in recessions, the second in booms.
The Second Ave subway will affect the quality of life of those already there. The real property value affects would be the loss of the Manhattan Bridge, which would devastate parts of Brooklyn, and East Side Access vs. another tunnel to NJ, which would affect relative suburban property values.
As for those people in Manhattan prices out by gentrification, I have four suggestions: Brooklyn, the Bronx, Staten Island and Queens.
[There is a 50 year history in New York of two circles moving outward. The first is neighborhoods being passed down to the poor as their housing reaches 50 years of age (unless it was built for the rich and has many amenities). That wave is moving through the outer areas of the city and out to the suburbs. The second is areas closer to Manhattan being reoccupied by the better-off. That wave is moving through "Brownstone" Brooklyn, Willimasburg, Washington Heights and even parts of the Concourse. The first wave moves in recessions, the second in booms.]
Something I saw today was a good example of how the basic quality of the housing stock affects income levels. I was heading south on the Throgs Neck bridge about 3 this afternoon, returning home to Long Island from Connecticut, when I saw this big plume of smoke off to the southwest, apparently from somewhere in Flushing. Not being the sort who'd pass up the opportunity to see a fire, I decided to check it out. I got off the Clearview at Northern Boulevard and headed west as far as Parsons Boulevard, and then turned south on Parsons, that being my best guesstimate of the fire's location. At any rate, I noticed that the blocks on Parsons just to the south of Northern Boulevard were somewhat skanky, though not quite a ghetto. Most of the buildings were older brick apartments. But as I headed farther south on Parsons, toward Kissena Park (which we just talked about in a different thread), the neighborhood improved measurably. The main difference, as far as I could tell, was that the housing stock was so much better, consisting of well-kept and fairly large single family houses.
What I'm getting at is the fact that there are many factors that affect neighborhood quality. Transit availability is one of them, but not necessarily the most important one. If it were the most important, I'd expect that the northern part of Parsons Boulevard would have been nicer, being closer to the 7 train terminal. But housing-stock quality apparently was more significant.
By the way - I never did find the fire :-(
"I can't imagine what would happen to the East Village, the Lower East Side or East Harlem once rent pressures start building."
I can imagine at least one usual result -- landlord bashing. If the owners of rental buildings don't improve them, they are "slumlords". However, if they do improve their buildings, they are encouraging that great bogeyman, "gentrification."
Rent pressures have already been building for years in the East Village and more recently the Lower East Side - without a 2nd Ave Subway in sight. One result has been the largest boom in residential construction I've ever seen. There isn't a block in the east village that doesn't have some residential construction on it.
Of course some of this building is occuring in what were once used as community gardens that the city has been eager to sell (once their value rose high enough after aggresively removing squatters from the neighborhood several years ago).
Although many of these buildings have signs declaring "Affordable Housing for New Yorkers," one which was recently completed (on 4th btwn. 1st and 2nd) has rents starting at $1700/month for one bedroom apartments. This may now be market value but it's not particularly affordable. My roommate refers to this building as the "Boiler Room Estates" after a neighboring bar.
Poor New York landlords. My heart goes out to those victims of verbal bashing who own property in a booming real estate market.
(The city is selling now that real estate is high enough). The reason the city is dumping property is that for years it would try to adopt a "plan" which specified the use of a property. But a plan is subject to environmental review, land use review, lawsuits etc whereas simply selling off is not. Every time the city tried to adopt a plan, every interest group in sight tried to grab the property, and the losers fought the plan, so nothing ever happened. At least some politicos were in with every crowd.
So Giuliani comes in and realizes its a losing game, dumps the property, and lets the private sector do something with it. In my field, ITS THE BEST THING HE'S EVER DONE! Every now and then the Mayor decides that free enterprise doesn't apply, and he wants to control the future of a site. And its always a fiasco.
Community gardens are not open to the community -- the are the private preserve of a few. Nothing wrong with that, there is a deal. The private group keeps the property up in exchange for its use, but when the deal is over, its over. If there is funding for a park, and it is big enough, consider it. Otherwise, HIGHEST BIDDER!
They actually had us wear our IDs, had the place swarming with cops, and had metal detectors when the City Planning Commission had a hearing on this issue. It was absurd. What were they going to do, throw vegtables at us?
Could anyone give me information about the GG extension to the 1939 World's Fair? I have seen that extension on a subway map, but am curious to know what kind of extension it was, i.e. underground, surface, or elevated. What happened to it after the Fair?
Jeffrey- the extension was on a surface level right-of-way (todays Van Wyck expressway follows the route VERY closely) that ran out of the Jamaica IND yards. An EXCEELENT book on the subject is "Subway to the Worlds Fair"..if you can find it! (also..the author mis-labels R-12 units as the IRT Worlds Fair cars..oh well...) Obviously,after the fair closed in 1940, the line was torn up.
The '39 World's Fair IND extension ran north from the Jamaica Yards to
about Horace Harding Blvd, which today would be near the junction of the Van Wyck and Long Island Expressways. Demolishing the short-lived line was a mistake. It could have been used to extend IND service into Whitestone, College Point and possibly LaGuardia Airport.
The book 'Subway to the World's Fair' by Frederick A. Kramer was published in 1991 but does not have an isbn#. If a bookstore can't find it, try contacting the publisher at - Bells & Whistles, 932 Woodmere Drive, Westfield,NJ 07090.
This was an interesting line and should have not be demolished. It could have been a park n' ride facility and also run to LaGuardia Airport (formerly North Beach Airport). Because of the marsh land, the track bed was built on wooden pilings and would have lasted on a permanent basis. I am lucky to have the most of the important signal contract drawings for this line called the Worlds Fair Railway.
Another source would be one of the book dealers listed at the East Penn Traction Club website (http://www.eastpenn.org). I've seen the book in the inventory of several dealers at traction-oriented shows.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you can't find the book, I am selling it for $12 including postage. All proceeds going to the March of Dimes for the 1999 NYCT campaign. Only have 6 copies left though.
I also have some copies of the "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing" Book for the same cause.....
Steve: The Revenue and Non-Revenue car drwaing book sounds good.Please let me have an address to mail you a check at.Thanks,Larry
RedbirdR33
Reasons for disapproving the terminal switch:
1. B is a mirror image of D
2. C is more of a mirror image of A
3. It screws up the 6 and 8 Aves. configuration in the outer boros.(Thank you Queens Blvd line.)
4. It screws up the subway race at Yankee Stadium.
Why the switch anyway? Comments and thoughts please.
It's all about Productivity.You could now get three round trips out of C line crews instead of two when it went to 145st/BedfordPark.
There will be an "ABCNews.com" MetroCard. They will be delivered duringf the week of 3/22 and can be sold upon delivery. On 3/29/1999, at 7am they must be sold.The list of stations is as follows:
On the 1/2/3/9------ 96,86,79,72,66, Christopher, Houston, Franklin, Chambers.
On the 6------------ 86,77,51,Astor Place, Bleecker.
On the E/F --------- Lexington Avenue (same as 51 on the 6)
On the 4/5/6/L/N/R-- Union Square
on the N/R --------- 8, Prince.
On the B/D/F/Q------ Broadway-Laffayette, West 4.
SOURCE: Official AFC Bulletin
Are there any subway car manuals out there for sale? I am looking for anything that is from the 1970's up.
Also are the train's controls up in the cab similar to the M-1 and M-3?
Thanks
The Federal Transit Administration Web Site states that construction began on the one-third mile connector between the 63rd Street and Queens Boulevard line in July 1994 and is expected to be completed in August 2001. This is an 85-month period. From my last inspection of the area, it appears that much was cut and cover two-track construction.
I believe that The New York Times reported in it September 11, 1932 article on the opening of the initial section of the Eighth Avenue Subway opening that work started in July 1925. Most of this was cut and cover four-track construction.
For almost the same period of time, with less technology, we got about at least 20 times the route miles and at least 35 times the track miles of subway.
Simple question. Why does it now take so long in New York to build a subway? (Without even a new station involved)
Probably its due to money. In the old days, the workers were often nonunion and low paid, and the private companies building the system were on fixed fee systems. Today, they can work on these projects indefinately as long as they can keep on billing the taxpayers. Remember how long they worked on the Wolman skating rink, I believe it was seven years. Trump took over the project and had it finished in six months. I believe that the Archer Avenue extension, as well as the 63rd St. Tunnel projects both took about 16 years each!
There is something to be said to have the subways built by private concerns, without the city government involved to foul everything up. After the systems are built, they may want the city to run the systems, but if the city has to build it, forget it.
Not to defend the length of construction time, but the connection at the Queens Blvd end is being done over, under, and between a running railroad that operates 24 hours per day, 7 days per week! A "new build" doesn't have that constraint.
You also have a lot more government red tape (environmental impact studies, engineering studies, NIMBY studies) than you did in 1932. Also, the 63rd St line is being built while at the same time maintaining full service on the busiest line in the subway system. And there are a lot more swere, gas and electric lines that the line needs to avoid than there were in 1932.
--Mark
There are four contracts involved-3 construction and one signal. They did not start at the same time. Two of the contracts involve underpining the existing subway and tunnelling two tracks across and under the existing line. There were also 6 individual tunnels driven perpendicular to the 5 tracks and filled with concrete to for a new base for the switches west of 36 St.It is a lot of work.
I will be in NYC in a few weeks and would like to explore the operations around Queensboro Plaza. I am thinking about riding tram to Roosevelt Island, BQ to 21st-Queensbridge and then walking to either Queesboro Plaza or Queens Plaza, or perhaps Court Sq. Which would be the best to see subway and/or if possible LIRR activity?
Thanks.
Hmm. Are you sure you want to do that? That isn't exactly a tourist area and certainly not one of the safer parts of the city (Queensbridge, Queens Plaza area).
But if you do decide to go there, be advised that due to trackwork, there is no service to the 63rd Street-Queensbridge line from 6th Avenue (i.e. no B or Q trains).
In it's place is a temporary shuttle running from Queensbridge to the Broaway BMT (N & R) line. On weekdays, it terminates at 34th Street. Off-hours, it ends at 57th Street.
Another thing you might want to try is riding the Flushing (#7) train from terminal-to-terminal. Toward Flushing, it becomes elevated right after Hunterspoint Avenue (you will catch a glimpse of the Hunterspoint Avenue LIRR station) and remains elevated until right before the last stop. Along the way, you will get some nice views of Manhattan and different neighborhoods of Queens.
Step off the train at the 61st Street-Woodside station and look "down" for some nice views of the LIRR mainline.
Vartan, thanks for the info. AV
Since I work at Queens Plaza, it is not a bad neiborhood during the day even on the weekend.
If you take a short walk under the 7 Elevated from the end of the underground Queens Plaza station you come to the brdige right over the Sunnyside yards. There is a little entrance/staircase down to the yards employee's use. Though I warn you if you stand on the landing to take pictures you are on RailRoad property and subject to arrest.
I have stood there to take pix of LIRR, Amtrak, NJT and NY Atlantic (is that the Frieght Road name for LIRR??). You can see Amtrak long distance trains and the empire corridor trains being set up. Boring MJT MU's too. Only one time was I asked to leave by an arriving employee, never arrested or even have a cop look at me (Amtrak, LIRR, NYC).
You may also want to consider taking pictures from the multi-level parking garage right at Queensborough Plaza on the #7. Some great shots can be had of R-36 Redbirds on the 7 as well as R-40 slants, R-32s and R-68s curving their way towards Astoria. You can also see some LIRR action from this garage, too.
--Mark
Never thought about that, since I work directly across from the Garage and get those shots out the window . Good Point.
Take the N to 39 Ave. You can check out the 63rd St Connection construction and LIRR and Amtrak action on the Queens Blvd, Honeywell St and 39 St bridges.
Consider yourself fortunate. I've been chased away more than once, including being threatened with arrest by an Amtrak cop who grabbed my camera and opened the back, thinking he was going to ruin my film (fortunately, I had just finished the roll and was using the one camera I have that has an auto-rewind feature, so nothing was lost - he didn't try to take the roll out).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can catch a glimpse of what was formerly a very large hole dug for construction of the 63rd street tunnel connection while riding the "N" train towards Manhattan just after 39th Ave. It's mostly filled in now, but you can still see cross-bracing being put in and a brand new ventilation shaft beside the former Long Island City High School.
As far as walking around the neighborhood around Queens Plaza, the only unsafe conditions I've run into is the closure of sidewalks. Other than that, it's an industrial neighborhood in transition between manufacturing and the service industry, mostly very sparce as far as people, unsavory or otherwise.
What's interesting to see around there is the abandoned track ramps attached to the superstructure of the Astoria / Corona lines. Astoria was formerly served by BMT and IRT shuttles when the Queensboro plaza station was twice its size and the 2nd Ave. el traveled over the 59th St. bridge to Queens. The lighting may be of interest to any photog.
When the 63St tunnel is finally complete will there be a new station between 21 and 36Sts or the tunnel will run straight through? And why not let the G terminate at Queens Plaza?
There will not be a station between 21 St and 36 St. Because there is no way to turn back G trains at Queens Plaza, they will have to terminate at Court Square. The former middle (turn-back) track just north of Queens Plaza was lost when the 63rd Street connection construction began.
I think they build a new middle track just before the connection, didn't they?
The last time I checked, there was a middle track west of the spot where the 63 street tunnel trains enter.
The new track, which was the old turn-back track, is now the Queens-bound express track. The original Queens express is now ramped down to 21 St.
Wait-- if you look closely the next time you go there, in the direct east of the crossover that is east of Queens Plaza, there is a track between the two express tracks. And that is before you reach the ramps to the 63 Street tunnel.
I'm not sure how the layout is now. I know that the middle track (D5) was being used as the through track, while Queens bound exp. D4 was dead-ended for the connection. I don't know whether it is still like this, but in the final layout, D5 will become a layout track with D4 as the through track again, so there is no reason the G wouldn't be able to terminate at QP on evenings and weekends (weekdays it will be too busy through there)
From what I can see as I ride the line every day, the way you describe the new layout appears correct. (See Peter Dougherty's book, "Tracks of the NYC Subway.") I doubt evening and weekend "G" service will be altered, however, the reason being the connection available between G, E, and F trains at Court 23rd Ely / Court Square. I doubt the TA will clutter the many crossovers east of Queens plaza, especially once 63rd street connection service begins.
Also, it's interesting to note that we Queens riders are already experiencing the first installment of new track. A month or two ago, Manhattan-bound R and G trains began to traverse the new D1 track, dug out from under Northern Boulevard, while they construct the new T1 track in the old D1's place.
But that's a long passage (and also the only way out of Court Sq on weekends). Since the 63rd st connection is beyond D5, there wouldn't be any "clutter" of the crossovers. It would be the same as it always was before construction.
Agreed. I think I was simply dreaming of additional trains from Manhattan travelling the new connection, which would conceivably crowd the line all the way to Continental Ave. with no room (or need?) for the G. Of course, the same number of lines will feed the IND Queens line no matter which tunnel they use. Conceivably, trains using the BMT Broadway line or the 6th Ave. line could both use the new connection, but those lines already connect with the IND Queens line via the 60th street tunnel and the 53rd St. tunnel, respectively. Should we take bets on what the new service will be? :)
On weekends, does the G simply arrive on E2, reverse direction at Court Sq., and use the crossover to change to E1 to head back to Brooklyn? I never see it at Queens Plaza, let alone crossing to D5.
Now it doesn't, because of the realignment (remember, D5 is now the lead to D4, temporarily), but from the 30's up until the work began, the G wouuld terminate at QP and then cross over to the middle track.
I want to know that where can i find out the restrict rules for subway station... Specially for Roller Blader.. Are they allowed to get into the subway station with wearing roller blade?? And i don't see any rule for roller blade.And if there is a rule for roller blade.. what could that be?... and any penalty for that???
Rollerblading & bicycle riding is not allowed in the subway. Enforcement by police (when they are not in hiding) is another matter.
Right you are, Bill. In fact, the other night, as I entered the control area of my station on my way home, I saw FOUR!!!! NYPD Transit Bureau officers standing in a corner of the unpaid area, in a cloud of smoke, with several (apparently) recently-dropped cigarette butts at their feet.
Officers, the unpaid area's part of the station, too, and smoking's not allowed! If you won't OBEY the law, how's anyone supposed to expect you to ENFORCE the law!
There is no spitting, fume, smoking, drinking alcohol, riding motorcycles in the subway. You definitely can't roller blade and if you do you will be subject to BIGGGGG fines.
SEX is not allowed in the subway. Fair evasion is prohibited also. Playing musical instruments is OK. As a rule don't do anything to trash other peoples life.
Check with the guy with Esq. after his name to see what's legal.
As I was at Pelham looking at the Jobs It looks Like the No.1 has now
3 Diffrent call letters. Now you will get call letters from South Ferry to Chambers. Then you will get call letters from Chambers Street instead of identiying yourself from South Ferry. So some trains will hold 3 minutes at South Ferry and about a 2 or 3 Minute wait at Chambers St. Ofcause the good thing is you don't have to be stuck between stations. So it evens out. The Pelham line has those mixed jobs like Start at Pelham on the 1 Trip but go to 125 ST coming North. Then leave out of 125 ST and go to Parchester.
Now the only thing is if the Pick is still on everyone at Pelham said that there was acouple of Conductor fileing a greivance about the Platform jobs and other things on the pick so will wait and see.
I noticed they are now linking the cars on the No.6. 1676-1680.
I also notices more Redbirds less Silvers on the Road. When I last work Sunday mornings there was no No.6 Redbirds intill at least 9AM. When I got to Pelham at 7AM there were back to Back Redbirds. There was a R 29,R 33,R36,
I hope it does the conductors some good in filing a grievance on the platform jobs. Because it didn't do us any good in the B division. It seems our VP (C.S. dash M.) didn't check the non road book and there are jobs with pre-packaged RDO's. A no-no according to a precident setting grievance from several years ago. The union seems to be sitting on it. And we have concluded our pick. And May 1 is fast approaching when the WillyB closes and a new pick MUST go into effect by that time.
Well it looks like everything may go on schedule if they didn't win in B Division then the IRT might not be any diffrent.
From what i understand there is a step 2 hearing Set for today Tues.3-22-99.So there is still hope regarding the B Div. conductors pick.
I'm sorry i meant tomorrow
Well I hope for all you Conductors that they fight package RDO with Platform Jobs.
I noticed that also when I was on the Lexington Ave line last Saturday. I noticed a lot of Redbirds on the 6.
Althogh the A train's Leffets branch ends on Leffers Blvd. some want to extens it about 20 blocks to 135 st./Van Wyck. ( how about a connection to the Van Wyck Airtrain. Others want to exten it even further to Jamaica's Merrick Blvd, at 168 st. To complement with it, extend the Archer ave. line south to Liberty and Merrick for a train transfer connection.
Oh, yeah- the lousy bureaucrats and neighbors opposing train noise, will ruin it for everyone else who want to see progress and transportation.
Since the NYCTA bought the line south of Liberty Ave., the rail line north of it was abandoned in 1962. Since 1929, there were various plans to turn it into a subway line. Part of the IND's Second System.
It is near my fiend's home. Since abandonment, its Rego Park junction, was unused, part became a Forest Hills little league fiel, on the R.O.W. The two bridges on Dartmouth and Burns streets connecting Rego Park and Forest Hills were for some reason later torn down, many maps still feature them. At the connecting point, the abandoned northboud line has a short tunnel, circa 1908, covered with grafitti, inside are shopping carts, drug needles, a burned out car
( how did it get there?) Usually the homeless and gangs hide there,
on the other side are the apartments on Austin St. between 63 Dr. and 64 Rd. Near the corner of 63 Drive used to be the Rego Park station, closed in the mid-1950s. The tunnel ending near the IND 63rd Drve station on Queens BLVD, was supposed to go four bocks south along 63rd Drive, then along the abandoned railroad south to Rockaway.
Today, the abandoned R.O.W. is full of trees, dog poop, homeless and chilren venturing wondering about the railroad. The reson it will never be rebuilt north of Forest Park is because the resident of Rego Park Crescents have their backyards facing the "noisy" railway- not in my backyard. They could at least brick up the abandoned tunnel, to keep drugs, homeless and curious kids out, and put a time capsule of the railroad inside. Finally, tell those bureaucrats to rebuild the pedestraian bridges at Burns and Dartmouth
streets over the R.O.W. to connect the neighborhoods.
If you also live in Rego Park or Forest hills please post a message about the abandoned railway, too.
Comming in on the LIRR main line, particularly in the Winter, you can see the cut off (South side) & entrance to the tunnel (North side) at Whitepot Junction.
Mr t__:^)
The Liberty Ave. line was supposed to be extended all the way out to Springfield Blvd. as part of the IND Second System. It would have continued along Liberty Ave. to just past Van Wyck Blvd., then swung over to Brinkerhoff (now 110th) Ave, and then to Hollis Ave. There was a two-track spur which would have tied the Jamaica line in as well, around 180th St. or thereabouts.
Yes I was told there have been more redbirds on the No. 6 for the last 2 Mouths. The story I was given was that the R 62A's are going to be linked and sent to the No. 7 Line and those R 33/36WF will come to the No.6 Line. Wich will be a good mix of Redbirds. So all you Redbird fans the Pelham Line just might be your line.
TSS Law R 38 is this currect ?
One problem: does this mean the #7 will run 10 car trains?
Someone mentioned a while back that some R-62s will be linked up into sets of other than 5 cars, possibly 6-car sets, thus making it possible to run 11-car trains.
Are you saying there will be more Redbirds on the line with no R62A? All the R62A going to Line? Look like they going to have R142 on the line in the future.
I don't think all those East Side residents are going to be too happy about that.
Just so there is no confussion the RCI at Pelham said that they plan to have all No.6 R 62A'S GO TO THE No.7 Line. Now I was told there are more Redbirds on the No.6 Line. I was informed there where some new cars of R 36 from the No.7 Line that are on the No.6 Line now. Also the No.6 has 4 trains of R 33 from the No.2 Line. That to replace the 4 OPTO TRAIN THE No.5 line gets. Ofcause all the No.6 T/O and C/R are complaining about it. On the weekends the majority of the trains are redbirds. So I past by Westchester Yard and the Yard was full of R 62A's. The R 62A's on the road had the wide cabs or most of them. So that means the major reason for more Redbirds in service is because there working on linking the cars and making more wide cabs.
So far all the R 62A lines are working on the links and making more wide cabs. Ofcause some No.1 trains have them. Also the No.3 Line now has some wide cabs.
Keep in mind that som reasons for linking the trains are
1-less coupling and uncoupling in the yard. Electric portions are rather sensitive and don't need the abuse of a lot of switching...
2-I think that somewhere along the way they will continue to expand OPTO. (Of which I am greatly opposed!)
linking the cars will not only reduce alot uncoupling/coupling but the idea is to reduce maintenance on couplers mechanical and electrical portions. The electric portions which continue trainline connections from car to car regarding propulsion/braking, door operation and too many to mention here are a great source of trouble when the contacts get dirty or a train not addedup properly and portions shot when drilled in the yards. once the cars have been linked master controllers/brake stands in non operating positions are removed (hence more spare parts and less weight to carry(save money).
10 R62's contain 10 compressors for braking now probably a ten car train with to sets of 5 link barred R-62's will have possibly 6. Again spare compressors to other cars and money savings from having to carry less weight per train set less equipment to break down.
there are too many things to mention in this message but it all breaks down to cost savings one way or the other.
But that's the typical TA mentality: you solve one problem and you create another one. One b/o car brings the other four into the barn with it. One dead motor on a single car would bring it into the barn, but one dead motor on a five car set may mean "run it, let the other four pull it, we need it to make service." Same would hold true for a b/o compressor. Compressors charge up the brake system. If each single car has its' own compressor, that means one compressor per car is needed even when they're linked.
All I know is that the 62A's are being linked up. As for them going to the #7 line.....unless they put new equipment on the #6 when they arrive, I highly doubt the shift for 2 reasons.
1-The #6 line on-time-performance stinks and by keeping all redbirds on the line would make it that much worse.
2-They run 11 cars out there on Main Street, if they have these linked cars over there, they better have some spare single cars there. The timetable calls for 29 during rush hour (AM and PM) trains which means 29 single cars plus a few spares. If anyone knows anything concrete on this, anyone from Operations Planning or Car Equipment, maybe they can post.
I was given this INFO. from 2 Diffrent RCI's that work at Pelham Bay.
OFcause they don't know when it going to happen. Now to me the sentsable thing to do is just give them the new R 142'S. Ofcause there is a problem with this. Does the No.6 have enouth R 62A'S to fill the No.7 Line. I really don't think so. So it looks like this will continue to be a mystery.
There aren't enough #6 R-62As for them to be the only type of car running on the #7 line. Some Redbirds are going to have to stay on the 7, unless more R-62As come from another line, maybe the 1 or the 3. But from what I'm hearing, only R-62As from the 6 are going to the 7 (why can't the 7 have R-142s?). Redbirds can't run on the 3 because of the Lenox Avenue yard's inability to hold 10-car trains (who designed that yard?). Suppose more R-62As came from the #1 line. Then it wouldn't have enough capacity unless some Redbirds went to Van Courtlandt yard.
Frankly, I don't see the point in reassigning R-62As to the 7. It seems like a waste of time to move them there, especially if the R-62As are being linked into 5-car sets and #7 trains require 11-car trains.
I know what you mean. I agree it would not be a good move to give the No.7 Line the R 62A's. Just give them the R 142 like you said. Know what I like to know if there where acouple of new R 36'S from the No.7 line now running on the No.6 Line. What did the No.7 Line get in return. there are alot of 9400's on the No.6 Line now. I got to find out more?
Just out of curiousity... is there someplace where it is set in stone that trains on the 7 line must be 11 cars long? I know that they are now, but is there any particular reason for it?
I suppose they could run with 10 cars instead of 11. 7 trains actually do operate with only 10 cars in the summer due to the fact that the single R-33s that make the 11th car in each 7 train were never retrofitted with air conditioning (anybody know why?). But they might be much more crowded when there are only 10 cars per train.
[I suppose they could run with 10 cars instead of 11. 7 trains actually do operate with only 10 cars in the summer due to the fact that the single R-33s that make the 11th car in each 7 train were never retrofitted with air conditioning (anybody know why?). But they might be much more crowded when there are only 10 cars per train.]
In the summer of 1998, #7 trains ran with 11 cars, ending the practice of running with 10 cars in the summer to provide an entirely air-conditioned fleet. The single-unit R-33s that allow 11-car trains to be operated were not air-conditioned because the equipment available when the married-pair IRT cars were retrofitted was too big to fit these cars, which have both a compressor and a converter (motor-generator at the time) under each car.
At one point, it was planned to operate 10-car #7 trains, but with the new fare structure, riding has gone up to the point where I don't think it's being talked about anymore.
David
There are two 11-car sets of R142 on order from Bombardier, in addition to one 6-car set and 2 9-car sets. And why does everyone seem to think that they will link ALL the cars?
-Hank
The summer of 1998 was run with 11 cars on the line.
Then, of course, you have tennis matches, US Open and the like, as well as Mets games at Shea during the summer. The Flushing line is worth its weight in gold due to its close proximity to both of these sports facilities. The same can be said of the 4 and D in relation to Yankee Stadium.
Today i saw R62A #1701-2-3-4-5 had been linked together.
So is 1676,1677,1678,1679,1680
I like the idea of linking up consecutively-numbered cars. Granted, this is nothing new; the BMT standards were also lashed up into B units of consecutively-numbered cars.
Here's a clincher: I have seen trains of Redbirds in which all ten cars were consecutively numbered. Not sequentially as far as the cars are concerned, but each married pair followed the numbering sequence. Now THAT'S what I call a solid train! You've gotta love that.
I got to admit it is kind of cool to see the numbers in order.
It looks like all of the 1600 series R62A cars are linked, with the odd one out being 1743-1697-1698-1699-1700 : 1696, out of service for a time, may still be a single.
Wayne
That's about to change Wayne. If they haven't already, 1696 will most probably be permanently linked with her companions, while 1743 becomes a "B" unit on her train (1741-45).
-Stef (Constantine)
Today I saw R62A 1711 to 1720 have been licked together.
These are trains, not postage stamps. We link em! We don't lick em!
[These are trains, not postage stamps. We link em! We don't lick em!]
Well, actually, you could, but it would taste horrible ...
>These are trains, not postage stamps. We link em! We don't lick em!
Obviously you've never met Dennis :)
Kinda like chewing tin foil with a mouth full of fillings. Excuse me while I remove my tounge from the flagpole...
-Hank :)
Ooohhhhh! Not fun! It's not the same with porcelain fillings, though. I still have a few silver-mercury jobs, but we'll see for how much longer.
Oh, THAT Dennis. LOL
Hi all,
I was browsing "Postal Life" a magazine for USPS employees and came across 12 month calender painted by USPS employees....I have an idea for nycsubway.org website...
How about a section for paintings/drawings by subway fans? and what about "Subway painting/drawing calendar"? perhaps the money should go to nycsubway.org website for future upgrades/expenses? Whatcha think?
Cheers,
Michael Adler
USPS, City Letter Carrier in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
Hi all,
I was browsing "Postal Life" a magazine for USPS employees and came across 12 month calender painted by USPS employees....I have an idea for nycsubway.org website...
How about a section for paintings/drawings by subway fans? and what about "Subway painting/drawing calendar"? perhaps the money should go to nycsubway.org website for future upgrades/expenses? Whatcha think?
Cheers,
Michael Adler
USPS, City Letter Carrier in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
Whoa!
Would we really want to see anyone's stick figure subway car?:):)
Ah, but perhaps there are some real artists out there (I'm not one of them, unfortunately - I have dabbled in art from time to time, but not anything like that).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am planning to go to Washington DC around the beginning of may. I was wondering if anyone had any good locations to shoot video or 35mm in the DC area. I am looking to shoot Metro, Amtrak or MARC. I greatly appreciate any help that you guys can offer.
While I can't suggest anything about the heavy rail, for the Metro,
you might want to try stations along the red Line (the Silver Spring etc. leg) as that runs in the middle of the CSX right of way.
Arlington Cemetary station is a good spot (on the Blue Line) as it
does not have island platforms. Also from National Airport south,
that line is outdoors too.
I am not sure of WMATA's policy on photography, you may want to contact them before going out and possibly getting into trouble if they have restrictions.
"Metro, Amtrak or MARC"
Don't forget Virginia Railway Express (VRE), which, like MARC, runs diesel-engine commuter trains on weekdays, but to the Virgina suburbs instead of Maryland. The Yellow and Blue lines of Metrorail run parallel to VRE through Alexandria, and the Crystal City and King Street stations on Metro and VRE are directly across from each other.
When I left NY many years ago, the R16's and R17's were the new kids on the block. If I recall correctly they were run in eight car trains. The conductors position was normally right in the middle of the train in that he would open the doors at righthand platforms from the front cab of the fifth car. He would open the doors at lefthand platforms from the rear cab of the fourth car. Is this still basically the way things are done or have things changed with all this new equipment?
The conductor operates in the middle of a train, in most cases. If a 4 car non OPTO train of 75' cars is operated, the conductor is in the last car. Since there are no conductor controls in the R40/42 cars: 8 car trains operate 3 south 5 north. For a 4 car train, the conductor is 3-1. That is 3 cars away from the motorman no matter which direction the train is traveling.
Anyone know why on the PATH the conductor is in the first car and not the middle??
Because at least one station (Exchange Place) the first car of an 8 car train is off the platform heading east. So the conductor has to be in the first car to have two zones each of 1 car and of 7 cars.
-Dave
Isn't that true only on the Newark trains??
Change??
Well there is OPTO or One Person Train Operation so there isn't a conductor on those late night trains.
That would be a be change, the train operator does it all from the head car.
Back when the R-17s arrived, they initially ran in 5-car trains on the 6, as I understand. I have seen 5-car trains on the IRT in which the conductor would be stationed between the first and second cars, possibly #3 trains.
On midnight 1 trains with 5 R-62 cars, the conductor is between the third and fourth cars.
I have never been on a 1 train that was running only 5 cars. 2am on a Sunday morning, we had 10 car trains. And it certainly wasn't a 1-time thing, becaus I frequent the 1 line late nights on weekends.
-Hank
They run 10 cars on the weekends during the midnite hours. Friday & Saturday nites, they don't cut.
Those must still be single unit R-62s on the 1.
Just thought I'd mention that the Fox Family movie "Earthquake In New York" had a subway scene that was clearly reused/outtake footage from Money Train- it featured the Money Train mock up #51050 ramming in to the rear end of a R30 84xx. The interior scenes were not NY subway cars though.
It also had a "third Avenue Subway". I will post on Bus Talk some glaring bus things I saw!--and the Third Avenue was IRT
Some of the interior scenes "appeared" to be Toronto cars, and other scenes seemed tobe VERY poorly made mockups.
My thoughts exactly. Is this Earthquake at Bloor Danforth?(was this the infamous Bloor again?)
Does anyone know where I can view photos of 6th Ave. and 9th Ave. El
stations, that would show ornate features, such as station houses,
canopies, railings (stairway and platform), etc.? I've seen many
photos of the 2nd and 3rd Ave. Els, since I have books about them,
but I haven't seen much of the 6th and 9th Ave. El stations, and I'm
just wondering if the stations were similar in design to the 2nd and
3rd Ave. El stations. Also, Will there ever be books released that
will focus on the 6th and 9th Ave. Els, since there are already books
on the 2nd and 3rd Ave. Els? It seems for some reason that the 2nd
and 3rd Ave. Els get the most attention. Hope someone could please
answer me. Thanks.
This Saturday, all day (3/20/1999) there was a movie shoot using track 2 and 3 at WTC PATH. The PATH train was on track 2 and had a blue Chinese/Japanese sign in the window where newer subway cars have the route number/name. This was across the bottom.
The pillars had Chinese/Japanese signs. The name of the film is "Now and Again"
Does anyone know more info or was this a TV series (but with Extras?)
"Now and Again" is a pilot for a possible TV show being shot by Paramount. As with most pilot films the public won't get to see it unless the "Bigs" like it and decide to continue production.
The signage was Japanese;the advertising posters along track #2 were replaced with Japanese posters and the strip maps in several cars depicted Tokyo subway lines! Believe it or not,the WTC station and the PATH train were supposed to represent the Tokyo subway.(And we thought that Toronto disguised as NYC was hard to take!)
The extras were there for the usual subway type scenes:crowds getting on and off the train,etc. The train also made a number of trips between WTC and Hoboken to film scenes taking place aboard a moving train.
"All day" is putting it mildly. The film crew arrived at 6:30 am Saturday and finished at 2:30 am on Sunday!
On Satuarday was a very intresting day with Homeless on the No.1 causeing delays in the afternoon and more train delays in the evening.
1st the 11:36AM Van Courtland is held at 157 St because a homeless guy is on the track in front of the train at the South end on the Southbound Track so that was a good 15 Minute for police to show up. Next the 12:52 Van Courtland goes Brakes Into Emergency entering 110 St. It turns out the Homeless that sleep on the Northbound Plat. was kick off because it was closed and a trackwork happened to notice it. So they go on the Southbound and leave there bags on the Southbound Track. The Homeless people went and left. So that was a 20 Minute delay. I was held at 137 street. After the incident some trains had gaps in front or behind them and others were back to back. The train behind me went Express from 96 St to Times Square. I went Express from 34 Street to Chambers. but I didn't pass the train that went around me. That was because of that wheel detecter South of TQ.
It's high time something was done about these people who seem to serve little purpose except to get in the way! There are unskilled jobs they could be doing. The world belongs to those who pay their way through life. I do not work for the MTA and do not have to be, or pretend to be, politically correct.
YVY
Is the LIRR station at Far Rockaway near the Subway terminal for the A train??
Can you walk between the two? Safe enough neiborhood?
[Is the LIRR station at Far Rockaway near the Subway terminal for the A train?? Can you walk between the two? Safe enough neiborhood?]
It's only a few blocks, no more than a five minute walk or thereabouts. As for the neighborhood's safety, during the day you'll probably be all right, emphasis on the probably. At night? Well, if you're going to make the trip after dark, please be sure to leave a DNA specimen so the corpse can be identified!
I've made the jaunt from the LIRR terminal at Far Rock to the terminal a nubmer of times. Invariably, you get to see the tail lights of an R-38 leaving the station, to be followed by all R-44s. Only when you give up, and get on an R-44 to head inbound, do you finally see an R-38 coming outbound. Murphy's law of railfanning, I guess.
You hit the railcar on the head. I did the same thing at Broad Channel, finaly took the shuttle to Rockaway Park...
When I did Joel Lovitz' rooftop shots at Utica Avenue, I had to wait through five R44s before the R38 showed up. Fortunately, all this took about a half hour as I was at Utica during the 1700 hour. Utica is a safe station as far as I could see.
As for Far Rockaway, It's about as safe as Hempstead is. I wouldn't want to go there at night, but during the day it's OK.
Wayne
That happens every time, it seems. Of course, the R-44s outnumber the R-38s, so the odds are stacked in favor of the R-44s. Add to that, some of the R-38s are used on the C.
The neighborhood struck me as dismal but not actively hazardous the one time I was out there, but that was a bright summer day. It's certainly not as desolate as the vast vacant swaths to the west-- cleared by the city for a renewal plan abandoned during the fiscal crisis, I think.
Why aren't the A and LIRR stations adjacent? The little mall between them seems to occupy a former ROW. Was there a single station when LIRR operated both lines?
Why aren't the A and LIRR stations adjacent? The little mall between them seems to occupy a former ROW. Was there a single station when LIRR operated both lines?
At one time, they were connected! The ROW was continuous. When the TA took it over, they severed the ROW with the LIRR and you're left with what you see now.
--Mark
IIRC the LIRR may have rebuilt its part of the structure while the TA is still running on the original ROW.
Ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, it is NOT safe. I was set upon on the LIRR platform by four teenage thugs with no visible weapons other than fists in broad daylight on a Monday afternoon. There was a train in the station with five minutes remaining before scheduled departure time. As I walked up the platform from Nameoke Street in search of an open car, I heard them behind me. I found the crew in about the fifth car with the DOORS CLOSED. I tapped frantically and pointed at my watch, as if to indicate "You're leaving soon, aren't you?" They did not acknowledge me and open the doors until after my wallet and watch were removed and the perpetrators escaped through the vacant track and hole in the fence leading to the adjacent projects.
They let me ride free to Penn Station (so nice of them!) and directed me to the LIRR police. The party line was: (a) I shouldn't be riding the trains in the first place; (b) the crew itself is afraid to open the doors at the Far Rockaway terminal so they shouldn't suffer the same fate I did; (c) Be glad they only got my stuff and didn't kill me.
I filed a complaint with the LIRR citing negligence on part of the crew on not having the doors open in a timely fashion. It may be a 'bad neighborhood', but the terminals in Hempstead, Long Beach and Patchogue are also in such areas, and the doors are kept open for up to TWENTY minutes before scheduled departures. No response was ever issued to me.
If we shouldn't ride the trains, and the crew is afraid to let paying passengers on, all because of the crime element, we law abiding citizens might as well just turn in our cards as members of a free society and move to penal colonies.
The area around the Mott Avenue terminal isn't bad during the day, but if you want to go to the LIRR, take the N31/32 a short distance to Central and Lawrence Avenues. The Lawrence station will be a block away. From what I hear, the Inwood station is also unsafe.
That's some story. I can't say that the LIRR's who-cares attitude surprises me in the least. The only real comment I have concerns Patchogue station. It isn't in a bad area by any means.
Ditto for the Long Beach station -- the neighborhood isn't unsafe at all. I never really thought the area around Hempstead station was particularly unsafe either, though I haven't been there in a few years.
Inwood station on the Far Rock line certainly seems dangerous, if only for the absolute loneliness of the place.
The Far Rock area has more of a rep from the preception rather than the reality.
True it has a crime problem -- as Mr. Fein reported in his post. However, having grown up in some rough and tumble neighborhoods of Brooklyn (Crown Heights & Flatbush in the 60s & 70s) I can tell you that I get a chill whenever passing through the Rockaways. It is mostly due to the "look" of the area: a post-nuclear nightmare particularly around the B60s and lower.
Every summer I bike ride along the South Shore of the Island from Long Beach boardwalk then over the Atlantic Beach Bridge to the Rockaways and then down to Riis Beach for exercise (and back again). Although I pass through the Far Rockaway area during the daylight hours, I make it a point not to stop for any length of time on the boardwalk as it is desolate as a no-man's land end on a hot summer day at some areas of the beach.
Thanks all for the reply, This summer I want to visit each branch of the LIRR I have never rode. Since Rockaway on the weekend is Hourly service, I thought I might take the A back. Even go there during rush hour and take the to Broad switch over back to Rockaway park and take the Q35 back to Brooklyn. Seems I'll wait for more Sunlight before starting the trek to Far Rockaway.
Still trying to figure out the Hempstead Branches, looks like they will have to be a weekday, unless I do a get off/get on on the same turn. 2 hour layover on the weekends, don't look fun.
Might do the Port Washington soon, catch the express (woodside to Great Neck or whatever) each way looks do-able even in today's limitied sun light after work.
Haven't figured out Montauk yet....
Lou --
You can cover both Hempstead branches in pretty short order if you take the train to West Hempstead and then catch the N15, N31 or N32 bus from the West Hempstead station over to the Hempstead bus terminal (about a 5 to 10 minute ride). The bus terminal is only a block away from the Hempstead station, which has hourly service on the weekends.
As far as Montauk goes, bring a good book (War and Peace) or some sturdy walking shoes. I took that trip about 20 years ago (just to say I'd done it) and there's nothing at all to do around the Montauk station while you wait for the return trip.
Chuck
Lou, the Montauk trip (which technically originates out of Jamacia BTW) takes close to 3 hours. I did it once with an old flame. We took our bikes w/us (we paid our 5 dollars for lifetime LIRR bike passes -- they're worth it if you're an avid biker).
Once in Montauk we biked about 1/2 mile to the south which put us in the center of town. We then rode out another 4 miles east along Montauk Hwy to the famous lighthouse. It has a fantastic view of the Atlantic from the bluffs. If you are going w/o a bike consider taking a cab from the Montauk train station into town where you can browse the shops or stop by into the Shagwong Restaurant on Montauk Hwy which is one of the best of the local eateries.
If you've a got a good pair of walking shoes (or a bike) you might also want to trek about a mile north of the train station which will take you to the small hamlet known as Gozman's Dock on Montauk Lake. There you can enjoy seafood lunch/diner at Dave's or the Gozman's Pier fish n'chips joint. And certainly if you like to go fishing -- the dock area is loaded with charter boats for both whale watching and deep-sea fishing.
I'll be out there myself by mid-June (just in time to avoid the summer 'mad rush').
Doug, Great post ... who says you can incl. some fun for the rest of you party while you're just plain enjoying the train ride ?
This summer I'm going to take in a couple of AA games at New Haven & steer my friends over to Branford while in the neighborhood.
Mr t__:^)
You can't enjoy the train ride because you can't see out the windows!!!
To tell ya the truth I am thinking of that this June, as soon as we get more daylight. But heck that is coming up anyway, we're IPL'ing the box 4/3 for EDT!!
Here's a trip for you & the family ...
Take the LIRR to Greenport, might even stop at Riverhead (a small steam train museum there). At Greenport there's a couple of very nice resturants near the train, then catch a Suffolk Transit bus to Orient Point for the ferry to New London, then take the old NH line back to NYC. OR at Greenport take a cute little ferry to Shelter Island & back OR bus(?)/taxi from Shelter Isl down to the Montauk line.
OR get to Riverhead early & get to "Peconic Paddler". They'll transport up the Peconic River, then you'll have a 4 hour paddle from cranberry bog to cranberry bog, incl a few culvers to go through & portages to carry the canoe over ... I've done it several times with Boy Scouts & family ... at one point there a rope hanging from a tree, guess what you do there ... I always bring lots of water guns & a pirate flag ... you know capture the flag !
P.S. I think there now some kind of museum in the Greenport station.
Mr t__:^)
[Ditto for the Long Beach station -- the neighborhood isn't unsafe at all. I never really thought the area around Hempstead station was particularly unsafe either, though I haven't been there in a few years.]
Hempstead isn't a particularly nice area, but the station is in a fairly busy location. That probably helps keep crime down.
Before I'm hung in effigy by all residents of Long Beach, Hempstead and Patchogue, I'd better amend my comments:
Most LIRR stations on the Island are in downtown areas that are pretty deserted after ten p.m. I had to board trains at the above three locations late at night to get home to Queens thanks to owning a 1973 AMC Gremlin that loved to die on me in club parking lots. (True, Long Beach has undergone a nice renaissance in the last twenty years.)
The Far Rockaway station, however, is in an area that several blocks removed from any activity even during the DAY, and hence unsafe at any time, which I certainly found out that hard way. There's only one exit through the ticket office onto the street at the foot of the platform, and no presence of police or taxis.
None of this, of course, excuses any train crew from keeping the doors closed to passengers because they're "afraid of the neighborhood."
Many years ago I used to regularily go to the Rockaways on Wed. night to see the fire works & spend some money at Playland.
Mr t__:^)
Instead why not take the LIRR to Long Beach. There's a Wendys & Burger King right there. Walk to the beach for lunch & take a LI Bus back as a something different to do. This time of year you'll have the beach to youself ! I did last week ;-)
P.S. Bring a Kite too
Mr t__:^)
I go to Long Beach a lot in the summer, take the LIRR special deal with admin to the Beach as well. Went to an art's expo too, love the 5pm express back to the city!!!
I want to visit the branches of the LIRR I don't normaly ride (I only ride three, Port Jeff, Long Beach and out to Merrick once in awhile).
The two Hempstead branches are a few blocks apart, but you can take a LI Bus N6, N15, N31 or N32 between them. The Malverne/Lakeview brach comes off the Babylon line, while the "Hempstead" branch comes off the main line and ends at the LI Bus depot at Hempstead.
You COULD even take the N31 or N32 from Hempstead all the way to Far Rockaway & TRANSFER to the A train !
Enjoy ... Mr t__:^)
The Hempstead branch terminal is 1.0 miles from the West Hempstead branch terminal as the crow flies, 1.3 miles via the local streets.
The WH branch is one-track except at the terminal. Hempstead branch also has a one-track section around Country Life Press. Use the N15-17 bus to travel between the two stations or walk two blocks to Hempstead Turnpike (near the old Shoppers Village) and get the N6.
Wayne
When the Rockaway line was being converted to subway operation, there was some concern about the severing of the two Rockway lines, not just the track separation but the decision not to have a joint station.
But at the time, the LIRR was still totally private (part of the Pennsylvania) and I don't think there were any public subsidies for equipment or facilities. There may also have been some residue of the public-vs-private battles of the earlier part of the century--that resulted in such things as the lower level of 42nd St/8th Avenue blocking any westward expansion of the IRT; building the "Smith St-8th Avenue" route to 'recapture' the Culver from the BMT; and the unnecessary Fulton St subway under the el in Brooklyn--on that last one, one has to wonder how much extra somebody's anti-BMT feelings cost the City in shoring up the el while the subway was being built to kill it.
Last comment--What is LIRR practice?--If you have a round-trip ticket, would you have to get off the train at Far Rockaway? How long are the turn-around times? Couldn't you just sit and read from the copy of 'War and Peace' used on your Montauk trip?
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Actually, I think that the Subway under Fulton St was a smart idea. It increased the capacity through the area that could in no way be matched by the el without a significant rebuilding that would likely have cost the same amount as the subway. Would you want the area today served by the el? How much slower would a trip from ENY be by el?
-Hank
Walk to Central Avenue and take N31 or N32. It is a free transfer to/grom "A" train.
Someone (Mr. T?) posed a question on SubTalk a week or two ago wondering who a number of trolley museums (Seashore, Shore Line, etc.) had the word "shore" in the title. I think this goes back to one of the original "jobs" of the trolley early this century -- moving people from the city to the shore on weekends so they could cool at the beach. It was one of the key ways that trolley line operators promoted the use of their system during off peak hours. Another was trolley operators building family destinations such as amusement parks - Norumbega Park in southern New Hampshire is a good example of this.
On another note, yesterday was our "Instructor Requalification Day" at Seashore. It was great to get some good old electro-therapy after a long winter; in fact the first car I operated was Third Avenue Railway System (TARS) #631; I had is signed for "Tremont." If there's anyone out there who is interested in volunteering as an operator, conductor, or tour guide, please email the museum at carshop@biddeford.com. We were fortunate to have at least one SubTalker join us last year, and he's now a regular member of our operations department.
Our "new person" orientation day is Saturday 24 April. Becoming qualified takes a number of visits, but it's very rewarding (and fun!). While Seashore is about 5-1/2 hours from NYC by car, I know there are a lot of people on this board from other, closer areas that might be interested. [We do, however, have a dedicated member who has been driving up nearly every weekend, all year, for 10+ years from Queens!]
Perhaps my colleagues from the other operating museums represented on SubTalk could post their "new person" information for those interested in becoming involved in our terrific hobby.
Todd,
Come to think of it, how many other ARM museums have the word
"shore" in their corporate name or DBA? The Shore in Shoreline
refers to the local nickname for the East Haven, Branford,
Stony Creek, etc. community, the "Shoreline community".
Your point about taking the trolley to the shore is well put
though. A lot of summer street railway business was beach and
amusement park traffic, and indeed most of the Southern Division
of the present-day BMT owes its existence to that market.
Shoreline aka BERA had requals at the beginning of the month and
we are half-way through new operator training. We try to make a
big push and get our existing operators requalified on a certain
day, and get our new operators trained during the pre-season.
But our operators can also be requalified when they first come up
for the season, whenever that happens to be.
New members join throughout the year and some are interested in
car operations. Because of the amount of training we give, we
encourage them to take the training course at the designated time,
but exceptions are made when warranted. Volunteer work in the non-operating departments can of course commence immediately.
Our Members Appreciation Day is Saturday April 24 (hmm, same day
as your orientation). I guess the
weather up there is a few weeks later than Branford.
On Members Day, which is not a public ops day, members of the museum
are given the opportunity to operate various streetcar and rapid
transit equipment, under supervision.
For those of you sitting on the fence please excuse this plug from a NEW member of the Branford SHOREline.
I was very pleasently surprised at the amount of stuff, three books & a bunch of past newsletter, that were part of my welcome package. One of the books describes all the equip up there, incl. the many NYC trolleys & subways, incl. lots of photos. So, if you're on the fence, maybe it's time to get off ? They have all kinds of levels of membership, I chose the entry one at $15, this means I can't operate any equipment, but maybe next year I'll move up to that level.
P.S. One more plug ... bring the family & ride the ferry back from Bridgeport, its a great trip ! Or goto the Circus museum on your way back, also at Bridgeport.
Mr t__:^)
It seems to me that the Stoney Creek line of Connecticut Co. where the museum operates, connected with an outfit called the Shore Line Electric Ry. which operated the Conn Co. divisions in Norwich and New London. This is a part of the museum's history, and the use of that name is appropriate considering the tidal inlet visible along the line.
Seashore on the other hand operates on the Atlantic Shore Line Ry right of way. Sadly the Biddeford Line is about 4 miles inland at this point so we can't compete with our friends in Connecticut for views. The name Seashore came about because one of our founders had fond memories of the Lake Shore Electric Ry. in Ohio, thus the name was adapted to fit our location, thus: Sea Shore Electric Ry. which later became one word "Seashore"
Gerry
Hey, Thurston! Thanks for the enthusiasm. It's nice to know that people appreciate what's done at Branford. Don't feel bad if you can't operate the equipment because you're an associate member. Don't forget that there will be a special event coming up on April 24. I don't know if Jeff H. posted to this site or to the BERA site, but Members Day is on the way. What does it mean? You can operate any piece of equipment available for the day, whether it be an R17 Subway Car, or a Third Av Railway System Trolley, #629. Come on down! You're a member and you have the right to participate in this special event (under supervision of course). Perhaps we'll meet on Members Day.
Regular members have the privilege of receiving full training and operating the equipment for the general public. I'm a regular member who is in the process of undergoing full training right now. When I'm done, I'll be qualified in various trolleys (about 5 or so service cars which run regularly on the line). Subway cars are an entirely different affair. Only a select few get trained for this. I hope eventually to get subway car qualification, once I'm settled in with those trolleys. Trolleys aren't so bad, you know! I'm a subway person, but I'm getting used to these beloved treasures from yesteryear.
Also, for those who don't know (for all), there will be not one, but TWO New York Days events this year. Ride all the NY trolley and subway stuff that you can! NY DAYS is scheduled for June 26,27 and for Columbus Day weekend in October. Come down and support the Branford Electric Railway Association!
-Stef (Constantine)
Members would be able to operate (on member day of course) the R19??
Hmmm,
Where's the membership application....
I have no car so I am stuck with places I can reach via heavy rail. To bad being a member of the TA Musuem doesn't let you operate a train of Slant 40's....
Yes, the R-9 is one of the cars that is usually available for
member operation on members day, as the the Low V and the R-17.
There is an outside chance the R-17 will still be in the paint
shop, so maybe that will be an incentive for some of you SMEE
fans to come up and help us finish painting it :)
You can fill out a membership application online at
http://www.bera.org/membonline.html
I thought you were already a member, Lou (from Brooklyn)?
So, what scheme will 6688 be decked out in? Will it be returning to its original maroon shade?
She left the TA and still is a Red Bird ! Mr t__:^)
Maybe we could consider 6688 as an honorary Redbird, since it did fill in for the single R-33s which emerged from GOH as Redbirds. While it may be decked out in Redbird red, it didn't go through GOH the way the bona fide Redbirds did. Sorry if I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.
You could also say it's doesn't have AC & the end doors have circular windows, but honorary Red Bird is close enough for me.
AND if no more get saved from the torch, for a lot more folks soon.
Mr t__:^)
How about educating an out-of-towner? Is Redbird a particular contract number of cars or is it just a paint job on any car? Thanks! Karl B.
A group of subways that plyed (some routes still have them) IRT lines (1/2/3/4/5/6) & Flushing line (7), model R33, 33S, & 36. They've been around since the 60s, i.e. Worlds Fair. The one at NH/Branford is a R17, but it looks a lot like the others above (inside & out).
P.S. Don't feel bad about being in the dark a little. For months I saw posts about Lo-V & Hi-V. I had no idea what they were talking about so I ignorred them, then I rode them (togather) at Branford.
Mr t__:^)
I remember the R17's from the mid 1950's when they were what I would have called more of a maroon color. I'm sure that original color was much darker than this redbird color I've seen pictures of now. I hope I am right.
Yes, the R-17s were originally maroon. They were close cousins of the R-16s (which, of course, were originally painted olive drab); in fact they were the IRT counterpart of the R-16. Both series of cars had padded seats originally and the emergency knockouts above the side windows. They could even m. u. with each other, although this was never done in revenue service.
If you really wanted to nitpick, you could say the R-16s were built by ACF, while the R-17s were built by St. Louis Car Co. In terms of reliability, it was no contest - the R-17s won hands down.
Sorry about dragging the R-16s into the thread...
Two similar fleets of cars - poles apart as far as reliability was concerned. What were the key elements that made the R16 such failures that weren't present on the R17s? I couldn't tell the two cars apart riding in them - they felt the same, they sounded the same, their wheel noises were even the same. The R17 was much faster than the R16. There was also a weight difference. There had to be another aspect that made one work and the other fail.
Wayne
Karl:When they were delivered all R-29's plus the R-33's and R-36's assigned to the IRT Mainlines were painted a bright red with a yellow trim and were called"Redbirds." The R-33's and R-36's assigned to the #7 Flushing Line for the 1964-65 World's Fair were painted Blue and White and called "Bluebirds." During the graffitti scrouge of the 1970's and 1980's these cars lost their identities with the MTA Silver &Blue paint and later White and Black paint.When the cars went through General Overhaul (GOH)in the late 1980's and early 90's they were painted a somewhat darker red with a silver roof and a black trim. At first they were called "Silver Foxes" but the "Redbird" named quickly returned though now applied to all R-26,28,29,33 and 36's. The R-30/30A that were rebuilt also had this paint scheme as did the R-17's assigned to the 42 St Shuttle. As you said in another post the original R-17 paint was a marroon that was darker than the red.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks Larry, You even explained GOH which I had been wondering about and was too embarrassed to ask.
Karl B.
Karl: Hi' Its too bad that some of the other nicknames have not survived. The R-32/32A's used to be called "Brightliners" while the R-38's were
originally called "Silverliners."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, It is sure obvious that I missed a lot of different types of new equipment by leaving the city in the late 1950's. I think I would have liked to have seen the various changes in the last 40 years. My screen indicates that you should be able to receive and send Email. Is this true? Are congratulations in order?
Regards, Karl B The Gate Train Kid
Karl: I like your new nickname. Yes I seem to be able to receive e-mail but some of the folks I reply to don't receive mine.But yes please send me some and I'll try to respond. I just missed the era of which you spoke of but it must have been very interesting since there was still joint BMT-IRT operations and a number of the els were still around. I took my first ride on the 3 Av El on 11/2/49 from 149 St to 76 St,however I was only seven days old at the time so I don't have too many details about it.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,RedbirdR33, Three days after your first train ride I started delivering The Long Island Press on Norwood Ave in Brooklyn. This sort of ended my evening train watching during rush hour. I'll bet you didn't even have a camera with you on that first train ride....
Regards, Karl B
6688 will be staying in redbird red. I had suggested going to maroon, but those folks weren't all for it when they had to think about what else had to be restored. The vinyl seats would be great to put into the car except that no one has any. The vinyl seats cost too much to reproduce. It would be nice to restore the car to it's 1950s look, but I'm afraid that it's unrealisitc right now.
-Stef (Constantine)
Wow, that touched off a flood of responses and online membership
applications to Branford!
Our R-17 car 6688 is going in to the paint shop in April for
"touch-up" work. We are not changing the color scheme at this
time. One of the "drags" of being a responsible curatorial museum
is that if you wish to depict an artifact such as a subway car
differently than it currently appears, you have to pick something
that as accurately as possible depicts the artifact at some legitimate
moment in time.
So, to do the original maroon paint scheme means picking a time
somewhere between 1955 and the early 1970s. Here are the technical
mods that I know about offhand between the time the car was delivered
and the time it was retired: Red leatherette seating was replaced
with hard plastic; door operators were replaced; handbrake indication
was added; radio bracket and antenna was added; a per-door interior
light system was installed and later abandoned; sealed beams were
added; some glass was upgraded to safety glass; battery charging
circuit modified; delay-start mod to switch group; oval emergency
lever handholes over side windows abandoned and sealed up; tile
floor replaced with lineoleum; thermostatically controlled ventilator
servos disconnected; and of course, paint scheme changed several
times.
If anyone can think of other mods, that would be helpful to us.
Right now, we think we have most of the parts to undo the electrical
and mechanical mods. The big impediments are fabricating the seats
and matching the original floor tile.
Just out of curiosity, how many people would prefer to see the car
in maroon with red seats, and how many prefer the 1987 redbird scheme?
I'll bet that the Redbird scheme would look just fine!!
I'll also vote to keep the existing colors that match the R33s, etc.
Why ... along with the PCC, BMT Std, and H & M Path cars maybe it will help draw a younger crowd that doesn't relate to the older equip. Then like me, after they've riden one of those four wheelers you will have them hooked for life ... he he he
Mr t__:^)
She looked fine and rode fine, just they she is!
Get rid of the Metro Card adds though!!!
Ok! I'm glad to see there's interest. I don't mind 6688 in the redbird paint. This is a good representation of what she was like when she was last in service in 1988. She looks alright to me! There's a chance that no other redbirds may appear on the Branford property. If that's the case, then the R17 is suitable to represent ALL redbirds. I figure that the car is less trouble to maintain if she is left as is. Trying to fabricate materials that aren't available are going to be a royal pain. Even if the materials are available they may be too costly. Branford has a tight budget that they must stick to. Whatever the case maybe, if I could restore the R17 to maroon, then I would. I could do a cosmetic job to reflect what the days were like before I was born (prior to 1975).
So what do you do? Paint her maroon. Change her sign racks (Jeff, are there any old sign racks in the shop?). As for the seats, they don't have to be genuine vinyl, as I would paint the fiberglass seats red for simulation. Sealed beam headlamps, are an essential part of the car, and I wouldn't remove them. The floor, I'm sure can be reproduced in some way. As for mechanical modifiactions, I wouldn't go to crazy, because it's is very difficult to undo. I figure that at least for now, the R17 is ok as she is.
Won't you gentlemen in cyberspace come out and help us preserve the R17?
-Constantine
I would hope that Branford doesn't preserve any other cars as they were our second stop in our crusade for a home for 6398. It is a pain in the tail because it is not as simple as slapping a coat of pain; it involves primer and in some places bondo. I could see that because the current cars in service , escpecially the ones that had that GOOD paintjob at M&K are already showing signs of metal fatigue, as they were sandblasted down to bare metal. This is good for appearance but because it removes all the crap and the original primer which kept those cars rust free before overhaul now killed the structure. I would not bother with these cars at all. They will require a rather large budget but at least with the SCM controllers parts should be no problem as the cars up to R-42s should be using them to their demise. If I had a choice though Id save an R-33 single unit so I can MU it with the R-16 at Kingston. It is also Westinghouse and all it would require mechanically is the J-1 relay with the cast iron shoes.
I brought up the question if Branford/Shore Line had any plans to acquire any other R-1/9s back in 1980, so 1689 could have a playmate, and got a few snickers in response. They're not too keen about having lots of subway cars. Say what you want, but subway cars are high maintenance items, plus they guzzle power, plus they can be hard on the track.
Kudos go to Seashore for having two IND sister units. If I ever get up there, I definitely want to pose for pictures while playing conductor.
I feel obliged to respond to harry and Steve B's comments on this
subject. I was not on the board when the matter of 6398 was
brought up, but I was a member and I knew (and still know) the
owners of 6398 and what was going on at the time. Branford, aka
The Shore Line Trolley Museum, did not elect to access the car.
It eventually wound up at Kingston (The Trolley Museum of New York)
where it is being worked on.
Were I on the board then (1989) when I was just a new member of the
museum, I would have probably yelled and screamed about how we
had to save the car. Now, a little older and wiser, I have to agree
retroactively with the museum's decision, and unless circumstances
change drastically, I would probably not be inclined to try to bring
a 33 single up there when the time comes.
Those of you who were ARM (Association of Railway Museums) 98
convention out west this fall know where I'm coming from. The
first age of railway museology is over. Now as we enter the second
age, we understand how certain things must change.
There are two ways of looking at the term "preserved". The traditional standard for preservation of railway equipment was
as soon as the car or remnant thereof was safely away from the
cutting torch and dumped on some piece of track somewhere, it was
preserved.
Unfortunately, there's another big scrap dealer out there. It's
a mom-and-pop operation; Mother Nature and Father Time. Mom
rots wood, rusts steel, soaks electrical insulation and bakes off
paint. Dad is a lot worse. Dad allows the significance of these
once-precious treasures to be lost to future generations, until
they become "junk".
In order to truly preserve equipment, it must tell a story. It must
continue to be displayed and "interpreted", as we say in the museum
biz, so that future generations who have no memory of it can
understand and appreciate it, and maybe take enough interest in it
to contribute to its future preservation.
Furthermore, the artifact has to be physically preserved and its
rate of deterioration made less than or equal to the rate of
available restorative efforts. Everything deteriorates over time,
even artifacts kept under glass with 24-hour climate control
and a security guard. The sobering thing to do is look at some
of the "preserved" railway equipment, chart its rate of decay
vs the amount of effort that is going into it to stop or reverse
that decay, and predict the long-term results.
To summarize this rather academic sounding discussion: preserving
a car takes resources, not just at the time the car is acquired,
but forever. Resources are limited. Every car that is acquired
is another mouth to feed. It generates interest, funding, new
members, volunteer time, etc., but it also consumes track space,
barn space, power, supplies, etc. At Branford, we are very
sensitive to balancing this process. Each car that is proposed
has to be weighed carefully.
Just about every railway museum in the US has the
same problem: too much "stuff". There
are a few exceptions. One that comes to mind immediately since
one of its very active members reads this board is Baltimore
Streetcar Museum. I think they have all or almost all of their
collection housed (Dan correct me if wrong). One of the ways
they can achieve this is concentrated focus. Their collections
policy is pretty straightforward because they focus only on
Baltimore. They have a pretty good idea of what cars are out there
that fit their policy, and so they have a handle on long-term
planning. Sometimes a monkey wrench comes along....for example last
year when we (Shore Line) traded a Baltimore trolley crane to
them. They needed a shoehorn, but they got the indoor space for
the car.
There's a good example of the so-called second era of railway museums.
We realize that we can help each other out and possibly improve our
own collections by trading, giving technical assistance, etc.
In the case of 6398, I think it is fine at Kingston. It fills
a hole in their collection, whereas it would be a redundancy in
ours. Although it is not well-known, certain Branford members
were instrumental in getting that car off TA property and arranging
its transport upstate, and TMNY members have also come by
us to see how we did the trolley pole on the car.
As for another R-9....well, that was really before my time. I don't
think it is fair to say Branford has a bias against collecting
rapid transit equipment. In fact, if you look at things since
1987, the number of subway cars on the property has gone up by
3, and the number of trolley cars has gone down by 3. However,
subway cars do consume more resources than trolley cars to
house and preserve, and they are more difficult and expensive for
us to operate.
And remember, Branford is still the closest operating electric
railway museum to New York City.
I have an update for all of you here in cyberspace. On Saturday, 3/27 I met with a gentleman at The Shore Line Trolley Museum who is spearheading the R17 rehab project. The man, whose name is Lou, wanted to see me during my operator training at Shore Line. I proceeded to Barn 5 to investigate what he was doing to the R17. Lou was scraping of the R17's paint with a small blow torch. He heated up the paint in certain locations and started removing the loose paint. What did he uncover while he was scraping? You have the 1985 redbird paint, under that a coat of sanitary white which did little or nothing. What he also uncovered was a large portion of MTA blue silver covered with, YES, grafitti. Lastly, something most historic was uncovered which I thought was really fascinating. On the car's side was found the original maroon paint from 1955.
The decision, for the best interests of all involved at the Shore Line Trolley Museum is that the car will be retained as a 1980s Redbird. The materials are available to some extent, to cosmetically restore the car to it's look from the 50s (vinyl seats, old signage). While this could be done, the car would also need numerous mechanical modifications, to undo all of the TA's work over the past 30 or so years. At least for now, the car will be kept as is.
Lou also showed me something of interest. I looked at the tail lamps, and found not one, BUT two sockets. Before sealed beam headlights, white and red lamps were located in the tail lamp area. Unfortunately, these weren't bright enough. Basically, you put the reverse key in and activated the white lamps when you proceeded forward. The sockets for the white lamps (not the sealed beams) remains unused.
A MAJOR announcement by this gentleman is scheduled be made towards the end of the week. The car will be moved to the shop next weekend. If you folks here can help out, please do so. Without your help, this work will NOT be possible.
Sincerely,
Constantine Steffan
I would look to the existing preservation facility (the MTA Subway Museum) and work toward raising funds for this facility so that it could be expanded. Then artifacts for preservation would be identified and acquired from MTA for restoration and preservation using volunteer labor. also, volunteers working on excursion projects could generate funds to make a new and enlarged Subway Museum worthy of the greatest Transportation system on the planet. Hard working volunteers of all types are the alchemists that will make the NYC Subway museum ready, willing, and able to preserve examples of all classes of NYC subway cars as they enter retirement. BTW, I've been involved in preservation of rail equipment for 15 years. Volunteers Make it happen!!!
Thanks for your input. Volunteers do make it happen. I represent both Branford and the NY Transit Museum and I have to say that, Branford has far more hands on experience than the Museum here in the City. Volunteers here in NY who work under Mike Hanna and Nate Gerstein only work on Tuesday Nights at the Coney Island shops. I considered going down to Coney Island, but the timing is bad. I can't really do much of anything during the weekdays. While volunteers nake things happen, sometimes these things don't get completed over night. Unfortunately, the Transit Museum is in the hands of a public agency which limits what they can do as a Museum. Shop space is essential to repairing cars, but is not always available because revenue cars take up all that space. Museum Cars are NOT a priority. I certainly hope that the Transit Museum would add more subway cars to it's already large collection. The Museum only holds a limited number cars, while the majority of the fleet is out at Coney Island. Perhaps, we can build an entirely new facility to house the Museum Car Fleet! The question is, who's got the money or time to do anything?
-Constantine
Has anyone ever considered the space at Essex/Delancey, i.e. trolley yard just off Williamsburg Bridge ?
Mr t__:^)
Good Idea! I don't know if the TA/MTA would agree. It's a nice empty space, and it's still in the Transit System. I actually had Grand Central Terminal in mind. GCT has a large amount of space, particularly on the lower level. You can store NYCT/MNR, and LIRR equipment all together in one central location. The only problem is that Metro North utilizes under running 3rd Rail. TA and LIRR equipment would have to be modified. Of course, running excursions on this equipment is an entirely different issue. Can you see running a Museum Set of D-Types up to Croton Harmon???!!?? If excursions were to be run on TA territory, the TA stuff would have to be transferred back which might be a hassle in some people's eyes. The same thing applies to LIRR equipment. I wonder if it would be practical to run LIRR equipment in Metro North Territory (that is, if it's electric)??? Who knows what might happen.
-Constantine
LIRR occasionally transfers M1 cars as loaners to Metro North. I was working for ABB back in Feb of 97' when some Long Island M1 cars came up to Croton-Harmon and had the shoe beams replaced along with a few other mods to get them to run on the GCT system. When I asked around I was told this happens occasionaly whenever MN requests. LIRR has a surplus of cars and MNCRR dosen't.
I see. What about locomotives and coaches? Have they ever swapped any diesel hauled equipment? Speaking of which, what will become of the LIRR FL9ACs? I don't suppose these are going back to Metro North do I? As more DE30s arrive, the need for the FL9s is becoming less and less as the days roll by.
-Constantine
Stef, I really enjoyed reading your post on the status of the R17 rehab project at Shore Line. Posts like this are better than any railfan publication because of the personal touch. It sure sounds like something I would like to be a part of but my health and distance prohibits it. I would love to visit your museum if for nothing more than to see an OP Gate Car one last time, but I don't think that I will ever make it. Good luck with your preservation efforts!
Karl B
Thank you very much for your input, Karl. I wish you could be of assistance, but I understand the difficulties that you encounter. Even if you can't be there to help, you can always be a member of the Museum. Contributions are important regardless of what shape or form they may take. As for those Open Platform cars, well let me say this: If you can somehow make it at least once during the year, your visit will be a refreshing one. Shore Line has a large number of Open Platform cars from NYC. All cars are to your liking. Unfortunately, not everyone of them is operational.
Your Favorites Are: BRT El Cars, 197,659,999,1227,1349,1362. IRT El Cars at Branford are the following: Car G*, and 824. They have many Brooklyn Cars and very little of the Manhattan El fleet.
*Car G was built in 1878 as passanger car 41 (from the Steam Era) for the NY Elevated. She ran continuously as an electric trailer until 1955, collecting money from various el stations (particularly 3rd Av). She is on loan to the NY Transit Museum in Brooklyn until late 2003.
Stop by the NY Transit Museum to see Car G and Brooklyn El Cars 1273, 1404, and 1407, as well as Q Type 1612C if you can!
Again, thanks for the support!
-Constantine
Why was he using a torch to remove paint? We are using an air sander on 6398 at TMNY which works faster with smoother results. Also an air chisel with a dull point-end chisel removes layered paint around the car's riviting. What advantage is there to burning off the paint?
I'm not sure, Harry. Heating the paint made Lou's life easier than struggling to scrape off the paint. We may have a sander, but wouldn't be able to utilize that equipment until 6688 has gotten to the shop next weekend. We may also wire brush the paint off.
How is 6398 progressing? Is she all done?
-Constantine
After we obtain scaffolding to sand, seal and paint the roof our efforts turn to asphaulting and tiling the floor. We are looking at 75% completion with 100 % by the end of the summer, assuming the same three volunteers are present. Thanks for the request!
Harry....there are a bunch of layers of paint on the car.
The TA didn't believe in stripping or priming, they just slopped
each coat over the previous one. Hot scraping is the fastest
way to get through that type of paint job. We also want to recover a good supply of paint chip samples. Furthermore all but possibly
the outermost layer is lead paint..not advisable to try to sand all
that off. This is a "touch-up" job anyway...just correcting some
glitches in the TA paint job.
What is the restoration plan for 6398, i.e. to approx what year
are you going to date it? Were you able to get a match on the
original floor tile?
Jeff
6398 will have an original Green exterior, and dispite those odd door motors, we went with the original paint of grey and blue on the inside. I painted the fiberglass seats in the maroon color that the vinyl ones were. Because there were no hand brake lights added, I guess the era we're looking at is around 1970, in the original green but with head lights and radio. Yes we have train carried radios!
The floor is presenting a major problem. Tiles and arrangement is'nt it though. It's the subfloor. Hey all you rail fans! BERA is'nt the only place to go!!! TMNY is in DESPERATE need of voulenteers to help with our fleet. Harold and I can't do it alone!
It sounds as if 6688 kept its original maroon shade until the silver-and-blue mode arrived in 1970. I also gather that cars were prepped for repainting only minimally, and that not all paint was removed prior to repainting.
I wouldn't mind seeing a return to original roller curtains on 6688, if nothing else. It would probably be best to leave it alone from a mechanical standpoint, if it still runs fine.
You're right about that! One layer of paint after another was applied without any true removal of old paint taking place. My pal Lou says that the original roller sign racks are still around and still intact. For the meantime, the R17 will be maintained as is. 6688 could be returned to her former glory, someday.
6688 was in maroon until about 1970. As I recall, only 6800 series R17s got the fire engine red scheme. If you had good eyes, you could probably see the Maroon Paint on 6688 and her companions, but I'm afraid that the grunge set in after years of no washing.
-Constantine
That grunge is what kept the R-9s in such good body condition for all the years. Our R-4 at kingston is in GREAT shape with one small patch job to be required upon its restoration. The R-16 is the same with small spots around the doorway where the drainage holes under the seats causing most of these problems. The major cause of the rust on the current redbirds is probably because the original lead based primer was removed by M&K upon the overhauls of the R26-29 cars in service. Even the R-10 cars looked great because they just painted them with little prep work. When the car washes started in the 70s the protective layers of dirt were removed starting the cancer of LAHT
Have you seen the photo in New York Subway Cars of Concourse Yard with R-1/9s having gone through the cleaning process? Much of the paint was stripped off, especially from the doors, revealing a white color. My mother once took an A train of R-1/9s while in the city alone, and she said it looked whitish and pretty dingy. Whenever my folks took the subway in the city without me, I would always quiz them on what they rode, and what equipment. My father used to travel on business a lot, and when he would fly into LaGuardia, he would take the Q33 to Jackson Heights and then an E train to Port Authority, where he would catch a bus home. Sometimes he would get a new E train, presumably slant R-40s, sometimes it would be R-1/9s.
On the cover of the 1994 NY Subway Calendar is a R-36 in White with a "Red Fox" ... I thought someone said they were called "Silver Fox".
P.S. The Red Caboose only has 94 & 95 calendars (was there yesterday, it was Ferris Beuler's day off !)
Mr t__:^)
Hey, Harry or Eric! Answer this one. Can you operate your Rapid Transit Cars on the Kingston trolley line? If you haven't, would you be able to at sometime? I'm just curious about your operations. Over at Branford, those folks have run the R9 and the Lo-V together, even though they are not electrically compatible. As I recall, the brakes on the cars are compatible, but no more.
What do you think?
Lastly, I wanted to know about the Drill Motor, 41. Any chance that it will be coming up to you in the future? Doesn't it belong to Mike Hanna?
-Constantine
Things are S L O W L Y progressing as TMNY as the 600 volt rectifier has yet to be installed. Since the R4 is in good condition the LowV will probably be next on the list. According to the February board meeting we voted for deaccession of the SIRT car in Staten Island so we will have more time to rebuild what is on the property rather than what is not. The next car to bring up will be of work train status but not to be discussed now. Perhaps Eric can answer your last question of the Brill motor. On the discussion of concrete floors we will be applying a fine grade asphault topped with 1/4 inch plywood followed by the tiles. Any complications forseen let us know as well as suggestions you may have as we will become first time masons in this venture to rebuild an R-16
At Branford they also had a Hi-V/Lo-V lash up :-)
Mr t__:^)
You're right about that! The only catch is that when they have the Lo-V/Hi-V lashup, or the R9/Lo-V lashup, they have to keep one car dead at ALL TIMES. You don't need one car's motors to get blown out because of incompatabilities.
6688 is going to the shop on Saturday April 3. I'll be there for the move....
-Constantine
You said it right, my friend. I have no reason to doubt you. Preservation is difficult, not only at Shore Line, but at numerous other museums. Before even considering preservation, the storage space issue needs to be resolved. Unfortunately at Branford, that issue may not go away for quite a while. We have so many good cars succombing to the "evil forces of nature". It is hard to protect these pieces. It kind of sad because the fight to preserve history seems to be a losing battle. Our Museum pieces are still suffering from fatigue. The worst of the fatigue is on the Hi-V 3662. Mechanically, she's seems to be ok. Cosmetically, she lost the war against Mother Nature and Father Time. What are we to do? The resources to fix 3662 and others is QUITE difficult. There's not enough money to get things done. There aren't enough people to go around and do the work.
Preserving other NYC Transit Cars, is a dream of mine. I honestly would have settled for an R33 single to join the R17. However, I see where Jeff is coming from. Numerous factors have to be considered before acquiring more pieces of equipment. Perhaps, certain railfan dreams are unrealistic.
I'm going to make this plea on behalf of the Shore Line Trolley Museum. PLEASE, if you can, come out and help us in whatever way possible.
Cheers,
Constantine Steffan
At this point in my migration from being "interested" in Trolleys & Rapid Transit equipment to a Transit Buff, museum member, etc. let me add my two cents worth as a "customer". I mentioned this to some extent before in this thread, but let me add a little.
Museums of this type need two things: Customer who provide cash and volunteers. The customer provide the resources to buy/restore/maint rolling stock. The volunteers use the resoures to make their dreams into reality.
Branford seems to have the typical problem: Too many cars needing work, not enough customers, volunteers & storage space. But they do have quite a few cars in splendid shape and a few others (of a totally different type, e.g. Hi-V, that are in working order).
So how do you get a whole new group of customers interested comming up to see you ? I for one think a R33 single in 1964 World's Fair blue and white would help. But I also need to understand Jeff's comments that any candidate for Shoreline must be a different and "significant" example of a transit car that helps to tell the history from the four wheelers to todays modern rapid transit cars. Does a R33 fill this requirement, well as a "customer" I say yes.
Mr t__:^)
Agreed! While an R33 single might be a good candidate for preservation, certain obstacles must be overcome. Jeff mentions numerous obstacles just as you have done here. I hate to say it, but what would happen if an R33 single were bought up to Shore Line? Being that the situation is a rather complicated one right now, I could see the R33 sitting outside gathering rust because there was no stoarage space in the barn. Even if the R33 were to get storage space some other Rapid Transit Car or Trolley for that matter would have to go on the outside, being exposed to the elements. If I thought it would be practical, I would say to Branford's Board of Trustees, "Hey, why don't you grab a married pair of R26s,28s,29s,33s, or 36s?" Unfortunately, I don't have the political clout to do anything, but I can make suggestions. Acquiring a married pair is far more difficult than anything else. I don't think that I'll be seeing a solid 10 car set of SMEEs rolling down the Branford Line anytime soon. There would be an overload every single time and that would really drive Jeff nuts!!!
Perhaps the NY Transit Museum can acquire it own stuff. Unfortunately, this stuff would be sitting outside in Coney Island Yard. It's nice to be affiliated with both Museums as I can see what kind of progress each Museum is making. Also keep in mind that the Transit Museum has something that belongs to Branford: Car G.
-Constantine
Put it this way: if you were to even attempt to run a 10-car train of SMEEs at Shore line, you'd have either blown circuit breakers, or an astronomical electric bill, or both. Besides, there isn't enough track to bring the train up to speed for very long.
Since most museums strive to include one car of each type in their collection, then 6688 could qualify as an example of an SMEE subway car, of which there were many.
Perhaps the NY Transit Museum can acquire it own stuff. Unfortunately, this stuff would be sitting outside in Coney Island Yard.
Why not the lower level of 9th Ave/39th St in Brooklyn? It's out of the way and not exposed to the elements as much as CI yard. It's also not publically accessible. (sigh)
--Mark
Mark, let's just say that you'll never know what may happen next. I sometimes wondered why the Museum doesn't extend it's gates towards Hoyt Street to bring more cars in from the outside (at least on one of the tracks).
-Constantine
The interior should be medium sky blue walls with Copenhagen Blue doors and an antique white ceiling. Do you have the little gold decals for the unit numbers that go behind the cabs? I bet there's some little hardware store up there that has them.
Would it be prohibitively expensive to recreate the vinyl bench seats?
If it is, then the charcoal grey fiberglas would be OK, but don't paint them red; it won't ring true.
Wayne
Wayne, some of the materials are available and it may be possible to restore the car to it's original look sometime in the future. Right now though, the plans are to keep the car in it's present 1985 (redbird red) scheme.
You seem to know how the car should look. Why don't you help out?
-Constantine
P.S. Did you get my scrap stuff in the mail?
Member?
That was my first trip there, never got around to filling out the membership but will do it now that I can drive the 17 (maybe). I did mean 17 BTW, where I typed 19 I don't know. Now the R9.....
Thanks Jeff,
Lou from Brooklyn (That 6'8" guy with the Blonde Kid)
The 1959 & 1962 "Tube" stock is now in its final few months in service on the NORTHERN LINE although no official date for full introduction of 1995 "Tube" stock has been given, the planned date is by the year end.The last of the 106 "NEW" units is just being finished at the GEC-Alstom Metro Cammell factory in Wahwood Heath Birmingham, England.
The "redbird!" set of 1959 stock ( 4car 1044 + 3car 1031)
is presently disbanded with both units running with un-painted ones
(redbird= unit painted in 1920s red,cream colours)
.
The other "celebrity set" that painted in new corporate colours
( 4car 1028 + 3car 1043) is also disbanded and running with other unpainted units.
For those of you coming across the Atlantic this year some excellent photographic opportunities exist on the open sections of the Northern Line, those being North of Golders Green and North of East Finchley.
.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
I really need to plan a trip this summer after the Y2K rollouts are done. A week in London & a week in Paris sounds nice. Summertime so hopefully there is some sun and not rain in England :-)
We never get rain - well sometimes.
I travelled on a set of 59/62's today from Leicester Square to Goodge Street. It was such a shame as the poor old thing was in a terrible state. It should by now have been put down. The whole interior was filthy and and the outside had been painted in graffiti which had been partially removed. I will miss them though.
Is graffiti a problem in London? It took years to solve the grafitti problem on the NYC subways. Back in the 1970s and early 80s anyone could just walk into a subway yard and spend hours turning a subway car into a mural. Some fools called it art, but vandalism is vandalism. Especially when it must be cleaned up at taxpayer expense.
graffiti was abig problem here in the late 80's especialy on the Hammersmith and City line and the Metropolitan line.I visited New York annually between 1987 and 1989 and noticed that as it was progressively being eliminated from the subways it was increasing here in London (and in other European cities too).To counter the problem London Transport started using anti graffiti paint on their trains (underground rolling stock consisted then of unpainted aluminium bodied trains)as well as securing their depots.The problem is under control,but it hasn't disappeared entirely.
I'm sorry to see them go, i spent 2 months in england last summer and i'll go again this summer. Only train i've seen that has maple floors. I saw the 95 tube stock in the tunnels being tested, during rush hour! They look pretty cool, just like the 96 Jubille Line stock, at a smaller loading gauge and with 4 extra seats in each car.
Goodbye 59/62 stock!
Justin
How many R-62's have full width cabs?
This question came up as I remembered looking out the full front window on the #1, but only a tiny portal through a cab door on the GCS.
There are lots of them with the main pupose of OPTO. These are the cars with full wide cabs that I know for sure.
No.1 Line
2176,2180,2231,2235,2236,2240,2316,2320,2406,2410
No.3 Line
Just starting to convert the trains to wide cabs
No.4 Line
All R-62 that have a 0,1,5,6 as the last number. With is the whole fleet exept the cars desroyed in the Robert Ray Incident.
No. 5 Line
last number that has 0,1,5,6 on the 4 OPTO trains from Pelham.
No.6 Line
Look for the same as above
Why the wide cab? When I first saw it onthe 4 line I thought it was security reasons? Could anybody explain......
Like I said the main reason for wide Cabs is to have One Person train operation. SO the T/O can move to the other side if its a off side station. As far as safety I think its more unsafe in a wide cab because of the panals that block the window on the left side of the train.
Stop the madness!!! It's bad enough that we have it on the 4 and 6 line but now the 3 cmon already. I need my front view!!!!!!!!
I really feel for you and my son who can't ride a train unless you get a window but unfortanitly the front window will go out with the Redbirds.
Thankfully, the R-32s, R-38s, R-40s, and R-42s still have railfan windows in their storm doors, and with any luck, these cars will still be around for a while.
All the more reason to keep at least a few Redbirds..
Enjoy the view while it lasts. The TA has big plans for OPTO and transverse cabs are a main component of it. I feel for all the subway fans who will miss looking out the front window.
We did it so motor instructors and nosy passengers can't spy on the train crews. We have enough to worry about so as the saying goes "see no evil, hear no evil".
Motor Instructors have the right to ride in for in your cab and observe your operation anyway. With wide cabs people will look trow the peek hole to get a glimps of the front. If you block the cab window you can be writen up. Lots of motorman on the No.4 Line got in trouble.
Here on the - line we don't get in trouble because we know how to write G2s. The last bulletin says we can't cover the glasses with newspaper but the rulebook says you will not operate your trains with an operating distraction. It also says our uniforms will be kept in a state of good repair so in the R-62s the only place you can hang it up on is the latch hook over the window. Unless that is you don't mind throwing your clothes on the floor like my daughter is used to.
Oh, you've got a teenager too!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a few questions about the track mileage of the original IRT. If I missed the information on this site, please forgive me. I'm attempting to reproduce the tracks to scale on paper.
1. The distance of the present Times Square shuttle, across 42nd street
2. The distance between Brooklyn Bridge and Grand Central.
3. The distance between Time Square and 145th street.
4. The necessary dimensions to draw the City Hall loop to scale. Curvature and such.
Oh, and the express tracks I believe?
Regarding a scale drawing of the IRT City Hall loop, I believe there
is one in the NY Subway Resources somewhere (I think it's in the reproduction of the commemorative book on the opening of the IRT.)
I saw it. No numbers.
Another place that has the drawing of the City Hall loop is the "Subway" restaurant near 72nd St. and Broadway. Stop in, have a sandwich, and study the drawing on the wallpaper!
The track maps published on this site are to scale, I believe. If you know the distance from any one point to another, you should then be able to extrapolate all other distances on the same map (due to the limitations of the computer graphics, I'm not sure if they are to scale from one map to another).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, no.... the track maps are definitely not to scale. Besides the fact that each GIF may have been reduced by a different rate during scanning or subsequent editing, I don't think they were ever to scale to begin with. Look for instance at the map that has 42nd St. Manhattan on it. Look at the size of the Times Square #7 line platform compared to any other platform in the vicinity...
Mea culpa - my ancient eyeballs thought they were.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will be in London week, and was planning to take the subway, ugh...excuse me....underground from Heathrow to where I will be staying (near Blackfriar's Station). Can some one give a brief run down on what I can expect in terms of fare, lines I need to take etc. Looks like I will need to take a train on the Picadilly line from Zone 6 to Zone 1.....But will I need to transfer?
I was also considering taking a ride out to Wimbledon....Can you see the facility well from the surrounding area. What stop (and line) on the train is the best in order to get there?
Michael B. from 168th Street
when you get to London.,get a tube map .That should give you an idea of the best routes to take.For your journey to Blackfriars from Heathrow,take the Piccadilly Line to Hammersmith and transfer acroos the platform to the District Line.The District Line will also take straight from Blackfriars to Wimbledon (though you might need to transfer at Earls Court,check the train display on the platform).You,ll be glad to know that the line to Wimbledon is largely on the surface south of Earls Court and that station itself is quite big.Email me direct for more details.
Also,please get a all zone travelcard.Tube,Bus and "national" rail fares are very expensive here (the highest in Europe).in addition ,the travelcard can be used (within the zones )on most "national "rail commuter services.
Firstly obtain "One day travelcard" from booking office at Heathrow station, this ticket is valid on all Underground and Docklands light rail and most "red" buses after peak hours and will cost approx £7
one ticket for the day, unlimited use...rather like a one day metrocard!!
Secondly Piccadilly line from Heathrow to Hammersmith then transfer is available on cross platform (no need to walk miles just a few feet!!)join District line (Eastbound) to Blackfriars.
.
For any other trips buy a one day travelcard Wimbledon can be reached
by District Line Direct (westbound) from Blackfriars or take the first Eastbound train and change at Earls Court.
.
The tube sysytem is easy to use and a one day travelcard makes it easier.
I hope you enjoy your stay in our Capital.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
woops wrong ticket price given in last post, the correct prices are:
.
One day travelcard Zones 1 - 6 £4.50
.
standard single ticket zone 1 - 6 £3.40.
.
So the savings to be made need no explaining!!!
.
The £7 fare i quoted wrongly
was for a one day LT card aimed at commuters which is £7.50 for zones 1- 6).
.
Heathrow zone 6
Central London zone 1
.
So a one day travelcard is highly reccomended
.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
.
** note fares correct at time of posting but may be subjectto change**
Rob-
Thanks a bunch for the info, I will definately get the zone 1-6 travelcard....I'm sure I'll use the train several more times that day. Do you know which station is closest to Wimbledon (as several stations have wimbledon in their name)?
Michael
Ok I presume you are coming over to watch the tennis!! rather than visit Wimbledon itself, lol lol, Southfields station on the District Line is closest to the Lawn Tennis Association and within walking distance to the tennis ground. (10 minutes approx)
However, frequent bus services run from the station to the tennis club if you fancy a trip on a ROUTEMASTER bus instead!! and some Routemaster buses operate each year from Victoria Bus station direct to the tennis club.
Sadly One day travelcards are NOT valid on these buses and a flat fare of about £2 is charged....!!!!!
Regards
Rob :^)
The bus fare sounds almost as expensive as the strawberrys and cream. Another London rip off.
If they are the real thing with AEC engines, then this sounds like a bargain to me, especially if this is a non-stop run and the drivers have a tight schedule to keep to. Yes, there are a few AEC engines left in the sevice fleets, but they take some tracking down, and I get the general feeling that London Bus drivers have slowed down on many routes considerably over the years. For example, take an 8 from Liverpool Street to Oxford Circus on a Saturday when there is no traffic whatsoever in the City. Unless the driver is way ahead of himself, you will be in for a lively ride. Now take a 15 back from Oxford Circus to Aldgate, and more often than not you will crawl through deserted streets.
Sorry, this should all be on BusTalk I suppose.
I never heard of the special bus service. Are they standard Routemasters complete with awful replacement engines? Or is something special likely to be put on?
I recall the closet station to Wimbledon is Southfields on the District Line. It is about a five minute walk to the grounds.
I really have to vent about the N train - Supervision can't seem to get the service right.
Why EVERY afternoon do I wait AT LEAST 5 to 10 minutes for an N train that is so damn crowded that you have to push everyone just to get in?
HELLO - If the trains are so crowded, RUN MORE TRAINS!
I know it's not as simple as that, but SOMETHING has to be done with the N line because it is absolutely horrendous in terms of customer service. And then the conductors wonder why the doors can't close - it's because the people can't FIT into the train! And NO - there is NO "train right behind this train". Are conductors taught to lie all the time about that?
Let's hold a forum or something like an open meeting to resolve the crisis on the N train that occurs every evening.
I worked the "N" for a couple of picks (not consecutive). I hated every moment of it. A schedule impossible to maintain, crappy R68's, GO's every day. It seemed going over the West End was the norm. The only good thing was I had 2 of the finest conductors of my career.
The N is a far cry from what it once was. I used to look forward to transferring to an N at Union Square for a nice express dash to 34th St, be it R-32s or R-27s. Plus, I knew the train would have a nice N up front, unlike the BMT standards on the Canarsie.
It doesn't help to have one set of tracks out of service on the Manhattan Bridge, either.
You guys have good observations of this line, but I have a bigger pain to deal with here. I live along the sea beach, and on weekends we have had no service in both directions, service is replaced with buses. On weekends that we do have service it is in one direction. The other direction is running over the west end. There is no official reason for this, these are some of the answers I have gotten
1. Overhead road repair
2. Station asbestos removal
3. New signaling being installed.
4. Track work on the bridge approach to Stillwell Avenue.
To no suprise, when driving along the line, or taking the bus, I see abosolutely no work being done. If anyone has any ideas as to what is actually going on, please let me know
The N is also called The "N"ever because it runs with its partner The "R"arely, even The "F"orever has better service if you ask me.
It is unfortunate that one of the main consequences of Chrystie Street was to INDize the BMT. It seems that the real reason it was called the "INDependent Subway System" was that it came when it wanted too.
RedbirdR33
>>The N is also called The "N"ever because it runs with its partner The "R"arely, even The "F"orever has better service if
you ask me.
Does "D" stand for "Dawdle," then?
That sounds appropriate, what with the R-68s wallowing on that line.
Nope D is for Density, the D is ALWAYS PACKED on the weekend. SRO if you ask me. Now the r68 is no R40 if you ask me....
You can say that again! I'm sure everyone else will agree that no one will ever mistake an R-68 for a slant R-40.
Speaking of R series, my company is introducing an R series product line. This is no joke! Models will be an R25, R50, and R100. I've told some of my coworkers that I automatically think of New York subway cars when R series is mentioned. Since there are no R-25, R-50, or R-100 cars in New York, I'm safe there, but if we ever come out with a model R10 or R12, I'm in real trouble.
Believe it or not, we also have D, E, and F series product lines, and at one time had A, B, and C model products. We will also be introducing a T series later this year.
The latest newletter of the Tri-State Transportation Campaign dated March 19, 1999 states 'The Port Authority of NY & NJ's "air train" project form Jamaica to JFK Airport was dealt a setback last week by the U.S. ciruci Court of Appeals in the District of Columbia'.
See the full article entitle "Court Re-Opens JFK Rail Fund Debate" at http://www.tstc.org/bulletin/19990319/mtr21201.htm.
I'd like to comment on the Amtrak crash. This goes out to all the drivers out there. You must wait at railroad crossings. Your life, and the lives of the people on the train, are not worth the few seconds you'll save by going around a crossing gate. I am legally blind. I have a little vision, and I have seen drivers being very inconsiderate and neglectful to things around them. I don't understand what the rush is sometimes. You must slow down. And, remember that a train is much bigger than a car. I am very prejudice against cars. I will always believe that trains are far superior. To all the considerate drivers, and there are many, out there, thank you for caring. For all the inconsiderate drivers out there, and there are just as many, SLOW DOWN!!!
God Bless,
TM
Don't worry about us. When I come near a railroad crossing, I hope to hear a whistle. And then if those gates go down, I pay homage to that grand machine! I'm sure the same goes for all who contribute to this site.
There are only 2 public road crossings on Staten Island, and when they are eventually reactivated, they'll have to put a cop or a sign of some type in front of them. One has been rehabbed and now sports 4-quadrant gates, but still has concrete jersey barriers blocking the tracks. The other has no signals, no gates, and has the jersey barriers blocking the tracks.
The rehabbed crossing is on South Ave, on the main access road to the West Shore Plaza shopping center, home to a soon-to-be-defunct Caldor as its primary tenant.
-Hank
Where is the other RR crossing on S.I.? I don't hink that trains are running on the West Shore line yet, are they?
The other crossing is on Western Ave, I'm not aware if it has been rebuilt or not, and is used to access Port Ivory and Howland Hook. Due a Union County, NJ having some kind of 'problem' with thru train service (apparently they want local service on the line in NJ, which, if I remember the line right, is nearly impossible) they have not even started the rehab on the NJ side. The project is under the umbrella of the PANY/NJ, and the AK Bridge and Staten Island portions of the rehab have been completed.
-Hank
Union County wanted sidngs for their local industries. But they are also concerned that the line will be used to transport garbage as part of the Fresh Kills closure. The Western Ave. crossing is still in disrepair. The north shore section has been rebuilt to a point just east of South Avenue. I don't know if there are plans to rebuild that line all the way to St. George.
[Union County wanted sidngs for their local industries. But they are also concerned that the line will be used to transport garbage as part of the Fresh Kills closure.]
How ridiculous. I'm sure there are many trains that go through Union County carrying stuff that's far more toxic and dangerous than municipal garbage!
Yah just burn the stuff over there in JERSEY and let the toxic fumes drift over Staten Island, like normal??
No, we send it to Pennsylvania to fill abandoned coal mines!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As long as there are crossings at grade between highway traffic and railroads/rapid transit/light rail, there will always be the chance of a tragic and deadly confrontation.
There are postings going on this site right now discussing rail rage, rude passengers and the like. Bear in mind the same type of person is behind the wheel of their BMW's, SUV, etc. These are the same drivers that rationalize that traffic rules don't apply to them (i.e. parking next to fire hydrants, in cross walks, double-parking, running red lights, etc.). Today, these are the types of drivers that are so busy or important that stopping to wait for the train that has blocked their route becomes an annoyance. So, they take the chance. I'd say many are lucky and make it though without an incident. Those not so lucky, an example happened last Monday evening causes death and tragedy.
I’ve had the occasion to turn my thoughts to those people who perished on Amtrak’s #58. As I’ve logged many miles in Amtrak’s sleepers I can only imagine the horror those passengers faced. It is still not know that the truck driver was wrong, however, isn’t it ironic that he “walked away” from all the destruction he may have caused.
I can vouch for BMW drivers being overly agressive - by me, they come right up to your rear, flash their high beams, then pass you (either side), cut you off, and speed away. as for SUVs - I think you should need a seperate license to drive them. They handle too differently from cars to be classified as such.
Something else to think about - the engineer survived. I've seen photos of a few truck/train accidents involving GE passenger locomotives, I'm starting to think that the P-32, etc, were shaped they way they are for a reason - to increas surviveability of the crews in an accident. Just a theroy - though I'm thinking of writting to GE to ask this.
[Something else to think about - the engineer survived. I've seen photos of a few truck/train accidents involving GE passenger locomotives, I'm starting to think that the P-32, etc, were shaped they way they are for a reason - to increase surviveability of the crews in an accident. Just a theroy - though I'm thinking of writting to GE to ask this.]
Actual impact damage to the front of the lead locomotive wasn't too bad. Had the train not derailed, this incident would have merited a couple of paragraphs in the Kankakee newspaper.
No, this isn't Trolley Talk, just a f/u on my own post.
I bought some back issues of "Scale Model Trackion & Trolley Quarterly" that adv "NYC Trolleys" and was quite suprised at the extent of the info & quantity of photos. I counted 16 different companies in the two part article, e.g. Ocean Elect (Rockaways); Manhattan Bridge 3 Cent Line; Babylon RR; Jamaica Center. The articles focus is on where this equip. went after bus-substitution.
Also another issue has extensive coverage of Westchester & Yorkers lines. All this from a publisher in Milwaukee, go figure ?
Anyway, send me a private e-mail if you want to know more.
Mr t__:^)
I heard a item on my "traffic & weather" station this AM about questionable expendures at the Port Auth, by its' Exec. Dir & friend of George Pataki, Robert Boyle.
Newsday Sunday & Monday had artiles that provide addl detail, e.g. 50th anniv party at JFK for 8,000 employees & friends.
Nothing in there about transit of the JFK Air Train, but since we're running a thread on the Air Train I thought it revelant.
Mr t__:^)
I remember working for the PA in the early 1980s, in the economic unit. The perks were certainly remenicient of a private company, not a government agency where you have to pay for water.
They have not fixed the escalators at Court Street Still!!!
In spite of the signs on the stairs instructing people, This Side Up and This Side Down as a KEEP TO THE RIGHT edict, the TA insists on contradicting their own policy by running the Left Escalator Down and the Right Escalator Up! Crowds of Pedestrians must clash with each other TWICE! just to get to the N,M,R platorm.
Is this some kind of TA cruel joke? It has been this way for many months. Why do they not address the problem? The station is over crowded as it is.
Once again the TA fails to do the simplest thing to make the system run more smothely. What's the excuse this time? Money? Unions? Politics? Safety? Oversight? (they didn't oversight when thy installed the signs telling people to keep to the right?)
Maybe the guy who set up the escalators is British? :) But seriously, I've noticed Grand Central follows this weird down-to-the-left thing. Most annoying at the 7 level and at the top level into GCT.
I think there's a good explanation for the GCT arrangement. If memory serves me correctly, it requires two escalators to get up to the main concourse. Switching from the 1st to the 2nd set requires a "U turn." If each set were so that up was right and down was left, there would be a "diamond crossover" between the two sets. Having the lower set "backwards" alleviates this so that there is no cross-traffic midway up/down. [Gee, I wonder if the TA thought of putting in FDs (Foot Detectors)?]
I hope not. There'd be a lot of "FIEs" (feet im emergency) if people didn't follow the "FD-10 sign :)
--Mark
There is a similar escalator arrangement at Denver International Airport at each of the concourses when descending to the subway platform. Two levels, with one set of escalators arranged left-handed and the second set right-handed. BTW, there are elevators as well, but that's for ADA requirements.
Dave -
The post to which this is appended, like many others, has a route sign in color. I note that this is coming from another site and often causes a major delay in bringing up posts like this. Can we get these signs on nycsubway so there isn't such a hangup?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There already are copies of the "bullets" on this site but I can't make people use them... see http://www.nycsubway.org/bullets
-dave
I'd be happy to use this sites' bullets.
A little addendum to Dave Pirmann's post:
There are two full sets of bullets, one showing the current ones
They are in www.nycsubway.org/bullets/current and have names like 'a.gif' etc. except: the Broadway bullets for "B", "D", and "Q" are called 'bb.gif', 'db.gif', 'qb.gif' and the diamond bullets have an 'x' after their names.
and another one showing the 1967 bullets
They are in www.nycsubway.org/bullets/67 and have the number '67' after the letter or letters in the file name (e.g. e67.gif). There are no '67 bullets for "A", "D", or "2" - they're the same as the current ones.
Move your mouse pointer over the bullet to see the name.
Wayne
I like to take the and the train
just testing......
I also like to take the
I hope that the return to broadwy express as with the train
Very good! Just takes a little practice. BTW - the "N" you tried to display (but it didn't) was missing the "/current/" - just said "/bullets/" instead of "/bullets/current/".
Wayne
My name is
Damn "I".
Well is my initials
Preview! Preview!
From now on posts with broken images will be deleted, no questions asked.
-Dave
But how about this escalator? When transfering from the downtown No. 6 at 51st St. to the Lex Ave. E & F, there is an escalator after you cross under the No. 6 tracks and ascends to the token booth level and concourse to the E & F. There's only one, and it always ascends, but they built it on the left side of the staircase. It seems like they should have placed it along the opposite wall to better facilitate the transfer path from the 6 to the E/F and vice versa. As it is now, those requiring the escalator to ascend to the E & F concourse must cut across those heading the other way. Perhaps this is a case of lack of funds for the second escalator(?).
The escalators at Union Square station, on the north side of 14th St. between Union Square East and Irving Place, also run on the left, British style.
There appears to be a tunnel on the Manhattan Side of the Manhattan Bridge that would connect the B, D, Q Tracks to the Broadway Canal Street Station. If this is true, is there any plans to use it in the future, or might we actually see the bridge opened to N service once again.
For info on the Manhattan Bridge, simply:
CLICK HERE
This is a guess, but I believe you're referring to the pre-Chrystie St. tunnel section which linked the north side tracks to the Canal St. bridge station. I always thought it was walled off after all was said and done. In any event, that section will probably never be used again.
Several months ago, I asked if the LIRR C-1s (the prototype Bi-levels would be compatible with the new bi-level equipment coming on line. I found the answer in the current edition of "Progressive Railroading" . The LIRR is soliciting letters of interest for the 10 cars built between 1990-91. According to the ad, 8 of the cars are usable while 2 have had some parts removed. Cars are to be sold in "as is" condition.
Sounds like typical LIRR stupidity if you ask me.
The same ad is in the current edition of "Metro" magazine. Wonder if NJ Transit is interested?
Stupidity may not be appropriate here.
Those cars were built as prototypes, test cars for new technology. The same was done with the R-110 cars on the subway. By working out the bugs with a small (albeit expensive) order, the production order is more likely to be reliable.
With a fleet as large as the LIRR's, 10 cars would be a nusiance to maintain in the long term, even if made compatible with the production cars they would require their own parts stock. Thus the best move is to dispose of them, their having served their purpose well.
I'm an amateur subway enthusiast and probably only know little about signal operations. But when riding the Q southbound between 7th Av and Prospect Pk I always see a home signal with no corresponding switch. Why is it there? I may be mistaken, but there also seems to be an extra one right before entering Dekalb Av on the northbound 6th Avenue Line. Are these leftovers from old switches/interlockings? Are home signals used for anything other than switches/interlockings? I'm confused.
It is there for protection. If a Manhattan bound train is being turned at Prospect Park on the Coney Island bound track, that home signal would protect the move. Home signals cannot be keyed by. Only automatics can.
These type signals can be either rear home signals or approach home signals. Rear homes don't have switches involved and are often used to allow turnaround moves. These signals must be absolute with Call-On provisions since keying-by could create a head-on accident.
Just to add to the above comments, have you checked out the extensive detail at www.subway.org site about the Subway signal system. An excellent source of knowlege. You'll be able to find out what a "Call On" is and how to "Key By".
Still don't know how they Key By a "No Key By" during the signal failure last month in downtown Brooklyn >G<.
Do I know about the site you mentioned!!! I helped Bernard Greenberg in improving his NXSYS program and my name is in the credits. I designed and worked on signal contracts for Union Switch & Signal for NYCTA.
With CBTC signalling coming on line won't this put some TA employees out of a job? The future is to eliminate the trackside signals isn't it? Therefore they won't need the signal maintainers, or will they be transfered to maintaining the CBTC equipment? There seems to be always a downside to progress.
When the TA started to computerize in the 80s they said how it would cut down on paperwork. Paper consumption at the TA naturally jumped (up). I doubt that the CBTC will cause the loss of signal jobs any more than AFC has cut jobs. A former senior manager of the Car Equipment Department said it best. "The New york City transit System is the only organization that can sell drugs and lose money!"
Not true check out the Defense Dept sometime!
OTB. During the Dinkins Administration, they ran a muti-million dollar deficit. How does the house lose money to gamblers?
-Hank
You'll have to ask Hazel Dukes - if you can find her
Yes, Dave has been kind enough to critique the interlocking
circuits used by my application, and offer countless suggestions
and other helpful advice and material to me. I am much indebted
to his invaluable experience, critiques, and suggestions.
I tried to type in an explanation of "holdout" home signals
here, but "preview message" indicated that the formatting
of my little diagram would be so mashed as to render the
explanation worthless, so I guess I'll have to write a page....
Bernie
Here is how/why home signals with no switches are typically used. Taking a cue from Hank for Graphics Inclusions, referring to the diagram below, 4 is such a signal, a "holdout". Explanation under the picture.
This station can be used, if needed, as a terminal for trains from the North. A southbound
train coming from the North on Track 2, appearing at signal 14, can go to Track 2, and continue
southward, or turn back North via signal 12 over switch 11 to track 1, and no special
protection is required for this move.
But at this interlocking, a Southbound train can also accept signal 14 over switch 13 reverse
to the pocket on track 1, departing northbound in the normal way. In order for such a move
to be safe, not only must a northbound train not already be in the pocket on track 1, but
northbound trains must be prevented from coming from the south and colliding head-to-head
with the southbound train. Holdout 4 serves this purpose. Marker signal 6, which is always
red, and holdout 4, both of which are absolute, with train stops, and may not be passed in, prevent
a head-on collision. Note also the approach signal 2, which must be ensured red (cancelled)
before 14 can be cleared to track 1, lest a train moving at speed trip at 4 and crash
head-on while still braking.
Bernie
More soft white (incandescent colored) flourescents are replacing fairly new mercury fixtures. First, on the 14th St line, and the 60th St tunnel (replacing earlier flourescent tubes), and now on Nassau St. (south of Chambers, and on the southbound track, to Canal), and in the middle turnaround south of Chambers. I just noticed it today, and of course, the dimmer blue lights were replaced with the brilliant cyan.
The bad news is that I always liked the color of the mercury's, plus, this seems like waste, when there are many lines that still have the old incandescent.
The possible good news is that if the placement of the lighting fixtures was a barrier to 75 ft cars, then hopefully, they took this opportunity to correct that. (Perhaps that's prompted them to replace them so fast?). So maybe now, we can see R-68's (4 or 6 car) on the M to Chambers, and the Essex St shuttle. All you southern div. R-40 fans should appreciate that.
I'm watching an interesting story on underground New York and noticed a few things I had questions on. I noticed some Train aperators wearing hearing protection while operating Redbirds. Also, both Operator and Conductor appeared to be wearing eye protection till the Conductor was spat upon. He had a disinfectant kit with him and disinfected his glasses and himself. And last, a Train Operator had some kind of earpiece on. Is this part of the radio system used in the subways today?
What is the scoop on the Shuttle fire that shut down service 9:30 AM on Tuesday?
Gary, Do you have any more specifics on this ... was it B/Q train ?
It WASN'T a Queens Surface bus. Mr t__:^)
The Tuesday, March 23 internet edition of NY1 "New York City's 24-hour TV New Channel" at http://www.pathfinder.com/NY1/news/headlines/indextxt.html indicated the the S shuttle operating between 21st Queensbridge in Queens and Manhattan 57th Street & 7 Avenue experience significant delays beginning at about 9:30 AM due to a fire somewhere in the tunnel between Roosevelt Island and 21st Queensbridge stations.
The online editions of the New York Times, New York Daily Nes, and the New York Post did not provide any information on the suybway fire. By March 24, NY1 no longer had access in the active headlines.
That is all the information that I have at this time.
Don't tell me this is deja vu all over again, as Yogi Berra would say.
It has come to my attention that the busdrivers from Local 100 are attempting to obtain the same salary as Train Operators.What is disturbing is that they are allegedly trying to get the union to agree to switch the salaries of the busdrivers and train operators.In other words,we should take a cut in pay in order to make the drivers happy.I DON'T THINK SO. If there is any truth to this,THERE MAY BE SOME SERIOUS PROBLEMS ON THE HORIZON BETWEEN BUSES AND SUBWAYS!
I'm not going to get too upset till I see something about this in writing, but at this point, the various divisions put out their "wish lists." If true, this scheme will only divide the membership rather than unite them.
Also there will be lots of BIE's over the switches to mess up the AM AND PM rush Hours. If this is true. I don't go for that myself I perfer slowdowns. That cause more damage.
Unfortunately, TWU's desire for a raise runs head long into demands for more fare discounts, more service, and capital improvments. Not to mention the huge debt piled upon the MTA under Pataki. In this vice, the TWU's best hope is a modest fare increase, and productivity gains which raise the salaries of workers while employing fewer -- the alternative is back to deferred maintenance. Perhaps the TWU should be preparing a fare increase campaign -- "we're using fewer state and local taxes, prices have increased, everyone else is earning more, and in the last contract we accepted less, so we deserve a raise." Etc. Remember, the MTA has no money of its own. In the end, people pay. Where to advertize? How about on the buses/subways?
Well I think most job titles deserve a rase. But to pay the Bus Drivers the same as a Train Operator is a little crazy. A Bus Driver
is reponsible for his/her Bus. Train Operators before leaving the Yard are responsible for all the cars on there train. Like I am responsible for my 10 Cars. Such as all the doors working in proper order, PA working, All signs being in currect order. And checking around the train. Ofcause if you scheduled to take a train in and out of the Yard on your regular run its an Pernalty job anyway. Wich means
it goes over your 8 Hours. Me I haven't gone to the Yard in 7 Mouths.
Ofcause the Union is trying to come up with a media campain on how hard we work. The Members have to folk over $60 out of our pay checks.
I'm voting NO on that one David.I heard that some Local 100 busdrivers have already given the union checks for more than $60 because of the good works of Local 100. Remember Dave, this is a busdrivers union.We have little say in what happens.
we have pretty much to say about that matter. Here in RTO a motormans title has always been a promotion from the title from bus driver. There would have to be a big struggle by the TA to change the civil service srtucture to allow this utter nonsense. I also know as a shop steward that RTO gave the shirts off our backs in the last two contracts. The 97 contract allows the TA to run OPTO and part time vans and bus operators. Does anyone in surface admit they are a part timer? Where are the vans? Ill show you the OPTO because it is here and the rules of the MABSTOA and TA bus are not enforced to the letter of the law as they are down under. Id bet big money that after all the finger pointing between the now four union slates running for Willie James job there would still be a STRIKE with mobster type bus bombings if the buses take food off our plate. Not to berate the professionals in surface but this will not happen for a title where in other cities such as NJT the payscale is SIGNIFICANTLY less then those working at the MTA.
Ofcause that all slick willie cares about
With all this animonsity, its a good thing Subtalk has been separated from Bustalk. If you guys don't like the buses, how come you don't advocate privitization and private vans? Next thing you know, you won't have to worry about you bus division rivals in the TWU because there won't be any. There aren't may people around anymore with the skills needed to mainatain and operate private railroads. But there are plenty of companies that maintain and operate large diesel vehicles, and plenty of workers who could be easily trained for the job. The way I figure it, if the TWU insists on dividing, the taxpayers may as well conquer.
The only point I'll make is that the bus driver have been given more and more to do by mngt. Therefore, if you expand a guys/gails job scope it's not unreasonable for them to expect more money. Same thing has been happening in the Token Booth. My point in no way diminishes what is expected of the engineer, just that they have a beef.
But then I'ld better be careful here, because I'm not a shop stewart anymore, so for the record ... they're all over paid ;-)
Mr t__:^)
I have no problem with a driver making more money.We should all be making more money for all the time we spend on the bus or train.For example, we move more people than the L.I.R.R and Metro North.The engineers and conductors make a substantial amount more in salary than we do and do less work.If the suggesstion by the busdrivers to swap salary structure is true,then they're the ones that are responsible for all the problems this union has.
Mike, you remind me of a Twilight Zone where a angry man in a one room flat had a enourmous amount of files and would blame people for being evil. You seem to be a very small man who catagorizes everyone into them and us. I do not understand how the bus operators control local 100 when it is represented by such a large diverse group of titles and workers. ITS YOUR UNION TOO! Or how you can hate all TSS's even ones you worked with as a train operator. I just know your the type that feels the workers have to get management, but dont realize that if you did the right thing from the start you have just beat management.
And please stop posting union problems on this page! Create your own BBS or go to the New Directions or Local 100 web site.
Oh, good. I thought it was just me.
-Hank
No just you and 8,000 other angry underground hounds
Hey Fernando,remember the Ulmer Park website? I remember the editor suggessting at one point Bus drivers should be making more than Train operators because they claim that they have more responsibilities.So, if you heard the same statement from another driver,especially at contract time,wouldn't you think there was some truth to it? So what's the story,Is MABSTOA going for the initiation fee and media tax?I hear they are 99%-1%.
Wednesday, March 24
Court Street Escalators still run backwards!!!
Here's my latest crazy Idea.
Extend the Shuttle East and then South down 1st Avenue.
At 14th Street it can detour under StyTown and and continue down Avenue B. Call it the Alphabet Line! These people deserve at least a shuttle, if not a real line.
[Here's my latest crazy Idea.
Extend the Shuttle East and then South down 1st Avenue. At 14th Street it can detour under StyTown and and continue down Avenue B. Call it the Alphabet Line! These people deserve at least a shuttle, if not a real line.]
Actually it isn't a bad idea. South of 14th Street, First Avenue is probably a better location for a subway line than Second Avenue would be, due to all the traffic generated by the hospitals along First. And don't forget, the Lexington Avenue line runs along Park Avenue South in that area, making it even more remote for the east side. Extending the Shuttle eastward at 42nd wouldn't be easy, what with the Lexington in the way, but surely something could be done if the desire were there.
Wasn't there a plan to build a spur off the 14th St. "L" line that would loop through Alphabet City/Loisaida? Let it branch off the "L" tracks just east of 1st Ave. station, run under Stuyvesant Town, then under Ave. C or D, or perhaps even the FDR Drive, to Houston St. At Houston it can turn west again and connect to the inner tracks at 2nd Ave./Houston St. station.
Your idea for a First Ave. line in that area is about 115 years old -- when the Second Ave. line was built, it turned at 23rd St and went east to First Ave., then continued south downtown from there to Chatham Square.
Of course, now in these more enlightened times, if they build it at all the MTA plans to run the first leg of the Second Ave. subway onyl down to 63rd, and then swing it crosstown, because of the lack of subway lines currently in the Broadway-Sixth Ave. area. So it may be another 115 years before anything gets built to serve the Lower East Side.
Just so everyone is forewarned..I received my satellite guide for the month of April yesterday and Cinemax will be showing THE INCIDENT on April 27...when the date gets closer I'll post the time(s)...
It also turns up on American Movie Classics from time to time; I taped it a few years back when it aired.
I just saw it for the first time a couple weeks ago. I thought it was disturbing. I hope that people really wouldn't sit on their hands like that when stuff like that is going on but I really couldn't say what *I*'d do in such a situation. I hope to never find out. For the first half hour or so (of a 90 minute film) the time was spent introducing the characters and getting them to their respective boarding stations. I remember thinking, why are they wasting 1/3rd of the film on this, they won't have much time for the "action". Then, by the time they were all on the train suffering their ordeal, I remember thinking "whoa, i hope this is over soon, for their sakes!"
-Dave
I agree: it's a very gripping film. When I saw it for the first time, back in 1986 or so, I wound up urging Beau Bridges on out loud as he beat up both thugs at the end. One thing, which could almost qualify as a goof, that stood out was the time span between station stops, and then there was no correlation to the Lexington line itself. The only underground stations I remember seeing were 103rd St. and Grand Central. There was another stop in which one of the thugs jammed his shoe in one of the door pockets so the door wouldn't open.
I've become a Martin Sheen fan of sorts since finding out he's been a Notre Dame fan all his life. He made this profession on an ND football video which he narrated.
Hi,
The Incident was made only a couple of years after the Kitty Genovese murder, where 20 or 30 people heard her screaming for help and noone did anything.
Spending many years in NY desensitizes you to many things unpleasant.
The Incident is disturbing because, like the Kitty Genovese case, it demonstrates how dangerous apathy and silence can truly be. Sit by and as long as I'm not affected, do nothing.
Ironically, its a non-New Yorker who is the hero of the film, but I don't want to give too much away if you haven't seen it. (Like the Honeymooners episode where his mother-in-law tells him the ending of the play! ( You know the BLABBERMOUTH episode)
Again, there is a rawness and believability to Incident that Pelham 1,2,3 lacks.
Pelham goes more for the sophisticated, complicated plot with attention to
"Hollywood" dialouge and effects.
The Incident captures the terror and randomness of being a crime victim on the subway and doesn't require overriding the dead man's feature or $1,000,000 ransom demands to be effective at doing so.
Thumbs Up to the Incident. Four stars for this one, two stars for Pelham. (Rest in peace Gene Siskel)
HK
I had a couple of free hours during my recent weekend at King of Prussia - and a vehicle - so I headed for Gulph Mills Station on the Norristown Line and got the opportunity to sample the 'new' cars on that line and the new MFSE cars.
From a passenger perspective both sets of equipment got high marks. The cars were comfortable, smooth riding and well lit. Performance was acceptable, though the Norristown Cars seemed to have neither the accelleration or top speed of the Bullets. The only real negatives were the plug doors and assorted beeps and whistles which the Norristown cars emit as they operate.
On the MFSE cars there were excessively long station dwell times punctuated by a synthesized "Doors are opening." and "Doors are closing." Considering that a place like Millburn has almost zero passenger traffic, the stop there seemed almost endless. The MFSE cars have a cab which reminds me of some old Chicago cars where the switch group was behind the motorman. All trains in service on Saturday were new cars. There were many "Almond Joys" stored live at 69th Yard but none in service. The stations along Market looked good with the exception of Millburn (oh well) and 60th St. which looked over-modernized.
I wish I could have taken a Subway-Surface ride but no room in the timetable. Ended my trip at 30th St. and headed back outbound. Scenery along Norristown Line is excellent. Market St. does not have the vitality that most of the el routes in NYC have. Many burned out, boarded up buildings and marginal businesses. Neighborhoods up the side streets seem ok, certainly not run down.
I think the last time I rode in Philly was in 1984, back then did the same two lines with a side trip out the Sharon Hill line Bullets and Almond Joys both seemed to make much shorter station stops than the modern cars.
Rare thing to find M-3's running on the weekends if at all. Much of the El's scenery is pretty grim.
Boarded up buildings and lots along Market St, and after Spring Garden until around Tioga, not much but burnt up, boarded up, packed tight Kensington.
I like the N-5's (Norristown) too but they seem to be awfully dirty on the infrequent rides I take. Of course, cleanliness on SEPTA in general has never been a priority.
The blight along Market St, considering the great architecture there, is very sad. There are some glimmers of hope here, especially at 52nd and 60th. I never liked the "spaceship" (my term) modernized station at 60th. It's really starting to look dated even though it's only 25 years old give or take.
I've heard that Millbourne is becoming more popular with the cheap ($2) all-day parking in the adjacent former Sears lot. The station was seriously considered for closure not too long ago. I think the passenger counts, before the lot opened (last fall), were less than 100 per day. Until the faregates were revised, it was the last place a westbound rider could cheat and switch to the eastbound. Also a great place for photos!
If you want to get a large number of Philadelphians anywhere, just provide ample, cheap parking!
According to today's Post we may finally get
more toilets in the stations. They also give the
numbers--there are now 55 stations (out of 468) that have
public facilities. NEW TA TOILETS
WOULD PUT MORE SUBWAYS ON THE FLUSHING LINE
On a trip to Tokyo a few years ago, I noted that nearly every station has a restroom. They're mostly outside of fare control, clean, and safe - and stocked with the necessary supplies.
(Every station had in Tokoyo had a free bathroom outside fare control) That will never work here. There are no judges in Tokoyo who will say the homeless have the right to move in and pee on the floor, but there are in NYC. Cleaning, stocking, and securing such facilities will drain resources from the rest of the system. The only way this works is if the TA charges, say 25 cents and has a time limit, and uses the money to offset the cost. If the restrooms are not commercial, they will be residential.
The solution is simple: The TA should install Single-Unit, Self-Cleaning toilets like the ones experimented with in front of City Hall a while back.
They would be Retrofitted into the old, now-locked, restrooms so as not to take up platform space and have a timing device on the doors to help deter unlawfull activity. Self Cleaning would take care of a good portion of the Sanitary and Maitainance issues.
Perhpase some could be put in sight of the Token Booth/or Control Station and opened, at the customers request, by the Clerk pushing a button!
As for cost; They should of course be free. There needent be one in every station. Just major connecting stations, or where there is room, or it's otherwise convenient. Maybe 100-130 single-units system wide would be plenty to appease 5,000,000 customers who have made due without a bathroom for 30 years.
I agree with the self-cleaning toilets, but not the free part. True, only a limited number of TA customers would need to use them. And there is no need for any at stops in residential areas -- most people either came from home/work, or are going there.
But there is a shortage of places to go in major commercial areas generally (in part as a result of the failure of the street furniture deal you cite). Put in bathrooms outside fare control (or even in it) and they are bound to be used by just about everyone. Not that this is a bad thing, its a good thing, but it has to be funded, and the best form of funding is a small charge -- enough to discourage loitering and cover costs, not enough to deter people.
If it were not for the state law against charging, stations like Times Square could be rebuilt with huge public restroom areas. These would likely draw fewer complaints than toilets on the narrow sidewalks. Perhaps those large IND mezzanines would have a use afterall, at least in Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn. Of course, it wouldn't be cheap, but with a modest charge and a capital it could fund itself, complete with security.
Want free restrooms? Go to Prospect Park. They are there. They are free. But since budgets are limited, they are few, far away, often dirty and closed most of the time. A few pay toilets at 50 cents a pop would be just the thing.
Yes, a fee is an excelent deturent of abuse, however I agree with the State Law banning pay toilets. Still, I feel there must be some kind of compromise/solution. I wonder if the state law might be bypassed if some sort of waiver/agreement was spelled out on the metrocard.
Another thought is that access to the toilets might run along the lines of: Although Free, you must swipe your metrocard to access the toilet. This could restrict users to customers holding weekly or monthly passes. (the State probobly won't go for that).
Another Idea might be some kind of "FREE" Bathroom credits built into the metrocard based on ridership. Monthly Passes could have 5 free credits built in, weekly could have 2 free credits, Day passes and tokens get nothing. Still not sure, but you get the angle I'm working on.
Keeping toilets inside the paid area might also ease the strain of abuse. So might restricting the hours they can be accessed, like: only when a token clerk is on duty to buzz you in or something like that.
Another approach might be some kind of debit system where passengers wishing to have access to this service can choose to pay a dollar or two extera for their monthly or weekly pass and at the end of the month they can get that money back as a credit towards their next card. The TA might profit by holding that extra money for the duration before customers claim it back as a "refund"
Any thoughts???
That wont work. They will jump the turnstile to use the bathroom.
Seems like an elaborate system being set up to get something for nothing. What you get in the end is nothing. The law was passed on the assumption that the bathrooms are already there, so if we make them free, we win and the owners of the bathrooms lose. That worked in the short run, so it had great political appeal. 25 years later, no public bathroom except those that, well, stink.
The truth is that the "free bathrooms" issue would fail the laugh test today. But it is already on the books, and since the need for public toilets is greatest in NYC, upstaters are not about to repeal it unless the city, say, agrees to an even lower share of state school aid. Or unless tens of thousands in campaign contributions are given. As long as you kiss enough political ass, however, you can get a waiver, as the city did for its never implemented pay toilets.
My solution: just ignore the law. Again, its what the city and state want you to do. The politically active in NYC have a problem with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution -- all men created equal, equal protection under the law, and other "annoyances." Of course some people deserve more rights than others, since they are "superior," the NY political class, liberal and conservative, believes, but you can't pass a law that says person type A can do it but type B cannot.
The solution -- pass so many rules that everyone and everything is illegal, then enforce in an arbitrary and discriminatory manner against just some people. Don't believe it, try being a member of a persecuted minority group -- ie. people who open their own business, blacks or (double whammy) blacks who open their own business. If all the laws were followed, the city would shut down.
Same here. Put in nice restrooms, start charging, and call it "voluntary" (like the "contributions" to get into "non-profit" museums) saying if you don't want to pay, you don't have to use it. If somrone complains, call it "red tape." Hire a politically connected lawyer, who will claim the intent of the law applies only to restrooms in existence when it passed, and to private business establishments which invite the public (restaurants, department stores). Have the lawyer go to a politically connected judge who is willing to do what the legislature is not -- change the state law by stealth. People who are rich enough to be able to hire lawywers have some rights in this country.
I can't say it at work, where 15,000 or so harmless businesses violate some obscure zoning provision or another by being on the wrong side of the street, but I can say it here. In NYC, stupid rules are repealed AFTER enough people with enough political influence break them.
Power to the People! We should all line up and go Pee on City Hall!!!
>>Power to the People! We should all line up and go Pee on City Hall!!!
Can't get close enough--the whole park is fenced in (including what was, briefly, New York's only public pay toilet). You could still pee on the Tweed Courthouse behind City Hall on Chambers Street, but I don't know if that would impress anybody.
To return to the topic: I was pleased a few weeks ago to find the Stillwell men's room decently clean--on a par with restrooms in the parks, at least, and a few cuts above the one out behind Nathan's (yikes). But Coney seems a little inconvenient for our daily needs.
Two legal questions, for our attorney and/or public policy friends here on SubTalk.
1. Can a restaurant or department store legally say, "Rest room for customers only" and enforce it? Thus it follows, could a transit property do the same thing?
2. Is it legal for a public (or private, for that matter) establishement to elect to not accept $100 dollar bills (I've seen McDonald's with signs, "No bills over $20"; our station agent friend can comment on NYCT rules). As I read the printing on the bill, it says, "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private." Perhaps it should be modified ot say, "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private, except when the recipient doesn't want to accept it."
I think that actually, the "legal" interpretation of the printing on the note is: This Note Is Legal Tender For All Debts Public and Private But If You Pay At McDonalds Don't Expect Any Change.
Todd, you raise two pet peeves of mine. Item, in Berkeley(sometime radical town) the University and City have a jointly operated Transit Store--a storefront half a block from the main BART station where most buses pass--like Harvard Sq. The store by policy refuses $100 bills even for purchases in excess of $50. When I complained they had some lame excuse about possible robbery of clerks. Secondly, although Ca has a no pay toilets law for public entities--airports etc, in general others --small retailers, maintain an employee only policy. BART has toilets at all stations mostly within fare control, but one in Berkerley is closed every weekend because a flea market operates in the otherwise deserted parking lot. I note that since ALL public transit is tax supported, ANY citizen who ever pays sales tax is de facto a "paying" customer. (Farebox revenue here averages 33% of annual transit operations--forget capital costs which are off budget.)
There are actually laws that contradict the "all debts public and private." For example, you can't get revenge by paying a $10,000 judgement in pennies, because it can be refused.
Why are we trying to limit restroom use, in order to keep it free? Why not allow everyone to use it, but charge enough to cover the cost? Is there some kind of ideal of shared poverty here? it's like the argument that we should make the subway free, and if the MTA can't afford to run it, it should just cut service to the level of subsidy available.
Coins and stamps do not carry the "All Debts..." disclaimer and therefore cannot be used. If you want to pay a million dollar fine in $1 bills you are legally on solid ground.
I was sugesting limiting bathroom service because I don't believe that it is needed or neccessary to have bathrooms at more than a few selected staions. Because of this I was suggesting that providing bathrooms might not be as costly as one might otherwise assume, and therefore the TA might pick up the tab, for installing a few dozen toilets, as a gratutity to it's customers.
I would be interested in what our legal experts have to say, especially on the cash question. I had a problem in January where a nationally-franchised quick-oil-change establishment would not accept cash of any denomination as payment without proof of identity, including name, address, and both home and work telephone numbers. A credit card or personal check would have been OK. I refused to give them any such proof, and they refused to release my van to me. I ended up calling 911 on my cell phone (fortunately, I didn't leave it in the van) and inviting the local police department to assist me. They came by and the manager tried to tell them it was company policy, which perhaps it is - they want the information so they can sell it to solicitors who will harass you with their sales pitches. The cops weren't amused, and I got my van back without having to provide the info.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I hear you on the cash-with-no-name problem, Anon-e. Just try to buy something at Radio Shack without giving them the story of your life. With the new anti-counterfeiting features of the new $20s, $50s, and $100s, I don't see why they can't be universarlly accepted. Does our station agent friend or private-bus-depot friend have any official guidance on that?
Oh yes - I've run into that problem with Radio Shack too, also Linens 'N' Things, Kmart (not recently, but they were doing it until about a year ago), and Kroger supermarkets. Annoying, to say the least. At least Kmart and Kroger allow the cashier to enter an override code if the customer protests.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe that's something north of the Mason-Dixon line. I've never has cash acceptance problems in Baltimore. Even at that nationally franchised oil-change establishment.
Go fig.
[I hear you on the cash-with-no-name problem, Anon-e. Just try to buy something at Radio Shack without giving them the story of your life. With the new anti-counterfeiting features of the new $20s, $50s, and $100s, I don't see why they can't be universarlly accepted.]
One solution is to make up a false name and address on the spot.
Todd my freind...
Do what I do. Simply Lie!!!
The first thing they do is ask for your zip code I just make one up. I always thought it would be interesting if all us disgruntaled types had the same phony zip code like 51514. Thousands, maybe millions of pieces of junk mail would be routed to nonexistant addresses in some small town in Iowa! People there would be over run with postal trucks.
Another trick is when they ask for your address, tell them:
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, D.C.
Or give them the address of Gracie Mansion or other places/people/organizations you feel might be lonely or not getting enough mail. Your ex-wife or your boss or landlord are also good!
What would really be good would be to find out the address of the CEO of Radio Shack or whatever store it is and give them that. Someone should find out and post it on the web so all of their customers can do it.
Remember, You forgot your ID but your happy to give them any information they want. BE COOPERATIVE!
What's more,
If you give them the address of the White House and they're wise to your antics and protest, you should complain that that is in fact your address and challenge them to prove that it's not! Make a scene. Stand there and make sure that they enter it! If they refuse, ask to speak with the manager and make HIM/HER enter it into the computer.
If you know the address of the store its self, give them that!
"First name: RADIO, last name: SHACK"
If they complain, insist that they enter it. How dare they tell you what your own name is!
Staples is another one that has this policy.
If a lot of people did this it would not be very long before all of the networks of mailing lists and consumer info would be gunked up with crazy false information.
Fight the power.
At Radio Shack, just tell the clerk that you're Len Roberts, of 100 Throckmorton Street, Ft. Worth, Texas 76102.
Got any good tips for telemarketers? At least junk mail doesn't interrupt you, and sometimes you get something useful from someone who knows what you want. But junk phone calls drive me NUTS.
I wrote to the direct market association to get off their lifts. I started out real nasty, but my wife felt I was over the top. So I sent in a mild request, and the call still keep on coming.
Thanks, Dave, for not selling my E-mail address. I never had received any spam from anyone except Worldnet, the ISP.
Larry,
There are a few things you might try. Try telling them you have something on the stove and ask if YOU can call THEM back in a couple of minutes. If you can get their number call them up and harrass them. Show no mercy.
Another thing to try is to say "oh, just a minute, I just have to gap my spark plugs" or some excuse. Then put them on hold and see how long they hang on. You might try putting the phone down and then staging some kind of domestic drama for them while they wait. Say something like "NO! PLEASE! PUT THE KNIFE DOWN!" or "Hey Frankie the caller ID is working, Let's go over there and KILL SOMEBODY!"
My name is hard to pronounce and telemarketers ivariable get it wrong. Usually they are trained to say "Am I pronouncing your name correctly this evening." To which I reply "nope, try again" and hang up. They are left at the other end of the phone not sure if they should try back or not.
Here is one that has worked for a few people: Write up a contract which states that "should ... (incert company name here) contact you by phone at the following number (your number), they agree to pay you $1000.00" Send the contract en mass to all your favorite telemarketing companies. Use certified mail to ensure that there is a record that they recieved it. Sooner or later (it's inevitable) one of them is going to contact you and you will be entitled to take them to court to calim you $1000. This system has been proven in court on a number of occasions. My guess is that Telemarketers are so nervous about this scam that they will root out your name and delete it from their list just to avoid trouble.
A cool way of dealing with telephone solicitors, if you're not in any hurry, is to act like you're genuinely interested in what they're selling. Keep the solicitor on the line as long as possible, asking as many questions as you can think of. Best of all are technical-type questions that require the solicitor to look up stuff. When you finally get bored, or when the solicitor insists you make a decision, say "Not interested, schmuck - don't call me again!" and hang up. Solicitors most definitely won't be pleased, especially since many of them work on commission and time is money.
Alternatively, if a solicitor calls to sell you life insurance (not at all uncommon), say that you're really really interested in buying some, but you just don't feel well enough to talk as you've just got back from a trip to the Amazon jungle and have these strange spots appearing all over your body.
Although most caller ID units will list junk callers as outside area or unavailable I know who they are but you have to act FAST. pick up the phone but hold the button down. Put the receiver to your ear then let go of the hang up button. If it is a friend you will hear their open mic as soon as you let go of the button. If it is a telemarketer you will hear nothing for 1 to two seconds. It is at this time that I usually hang up but as soon as you hear that almost always Southern accent start up you can say something like "hello, hello, hello" then hang up like your phone is broken or something. When they call from their 800 numbers to yours there is always a time delay before you hear the dreaded voice of the ambulance chasers.
If I sense I'm getting a call from a telemaketer- the greeting, "hello, Mr. FEEN?" usually tips me off- I just put my three-year-old son on the phone and let him babble away. This bewilders them enough to give up.
I have a seven year old daughter who knows everything. great idea!
Try this web page. Packed full of interesting information, with international pages too:
www.junkbusters.com/
Yes, giving them false info is the way to go-
And if they do get your address to send junk mail to, just do what my grandfather did for years and years-
Pick out the piece of junk which annoys you most, take the inevitable business-reply envelope, stuff it full of all the other junk, and pop it in the mail!
heh heh
That's a classic.
You might try including a note in the return envelope. Write something like: DO YOU LIKE YOUR JOB? or YOU KNOW YOU SHOULD REALLY ASK FOR A RAISE! or WOULD IT MATTER IF YOU JUST THREW THE NEXT STACK OF ENVELOPES IN THE TRASH!
I have a deck of cards with naked women on them. Each time I get one of those return envelopes I put a couple of cards in and send it out so that the people who open envelopes all day have something to decorate their office with.
You were in the right. No court would agree with such an establishment.
[I had a problem in January where a nationally-franchised quick-oil-change establishment would not accept cash of any denomination as payment without proof of identity, including name, address, and both home and work telephone numbers. A credit card or
personal check would have been OK. I refused to give them any such proof, and they refused to release my van to me. I ended up calling 911 on my cell phone (fortunately, I didn't leave it in the van) and inviting the local police department to assist me. They came by and the manager tried to tell them it was company policy, which perhaps it is - they want the information so they can sell it to solicitors who will harass you with their sales pitches. The cops weren't amused, and I got my van back without having to provide the info.]
I was at one of those oil change places in Connecticut a few years ago, when another customer balked at providing his name and address. The clerk explained that they had this policy so customers could be contacted if the facility later discovered some problem with the service that had been provided. I'm not quite sure what sort of situation they had in mind - discovery that their oil supply was contaminated, maybe? At any rate, the customer refused to give any information, and the clerk didn't argue.
How about puting rest rooms on the buses or in bus shelters! Now that's service. It seems to me that the bathroom situation is the only legal obstical to my plan to equip every NYC Subway train with a Bar Car. Perhapse excessive drink prices could help pay for "free" bathrooms.
"Perhapse excessive drink prices could help pay for "free" bathrooms."
But of course! Watered-down beer both creating the demand for the bathrooms and financing the supply of bathrooms! ROTFL!
We accept a fifty when a purchase is $30 or more and we accept a $100 when the purchase is $63 or more. Without divulging specifics, many(translate that to "most") booths have limited funds availability. I have seen people walk up to me and ask to buy *one* token and push in a $100. If we dont restrict large bills and run out of change we have to call supervision to bring change-usually from another booth and then we get "instructions" from supervision about not giving out too much change.Many times it is 2-3 hours before the change arrives!
The large bills are accepted- yes. But we do have to limit acceptance to allow us to serve all customers. Another reason--imagine the delays from counting out $98.50 and how those in line will fume and the line will grow. Already people in line fume when we count the 5-6 dollars in dimes and nickels and pennies (yes, wwe have to accept them!)
In any organized society, the individual must give up certain privileges for the sake of the society. Imagine turning off the traffic light at Broadway and 42nd Street and saying anyone can move anytime--the hospitals would be overflowing!
***disclaimer--while some info is based on official policy, the opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
Cash has become fairly disreputable. When someone pulls out a big knot of big bills to pay for something, your first thought is "cash business" or "off-the-books" ie. I am having to pay extra taxes to support public service because of this theif. The second thought is "drug dealer." That's especially true with the bigger bills. I can't remember the last time I used bill that was bigger than a $20.
Cash is also a pain. I'll never forget the two years when I was talked into serving as volunteer treasurer of the New York Chapter of the APA. Counting out, and filling out deposit slips, for hundreds of bills and checks when we had a conference was HELL! Tracking down the bounced checks was worse. No wonder merchants are willing to pay a hefty percent to accept credit cards.
[Cash has become fairly disreputable. When someone pulls out a big knot of big bills to pay for something, your first thought is "cash business" or "off-the-books" ie. I am having to pay extra taxes to support public service because of this theif. The second thought is "drug dealer." That's especially true with the bigger bills. I can't remember the last time I used bill that was bigger than a $20.]
Yep, my thoughts exactly. Though I think I'll add a third possibility to the "cash business" or "drug dealer" scenario - the Big Swinging [deleted] Syndrome, by which the user of the big wad of cash seeks to impress everyone with what a big shot he is.
Regarding the increasing rarity of bills over $20, that's probably attributable in large part to the proliferation of ATMs. They rarely seem to dispense anything other than twenties.
Besides, why would anyone want to carry cash? As long as you can pay off your credit card totals every month so that you will not pay finance charges credit card purchases have become very convenient. MetroCards are available in machines; bridge and tunnel tolls can be paid using EZPass with a charge card account. And, some of the banks allow payments to be drawn directly from a checking account using online access.(at no additional cost)
[We accept a fifty when a purchase is $30 or more and we accept a $100 when the purchase is $63 or more]
METRA, the operating authority for Chicago commuter rail has this policy on changing big bills and states it in their timetables.
"An extra $1.00 is charged on currency transactions involving bills $50 and larger."
This to me is NOT much of a deterrent to customers who offer $50 or $100 bills for a $5.80 fair (Zone K one-way full fare, highest fare currently charged on METRA).
One thing to consider is that higher bills are more common because prices are higher then they were 25 years ago. This tranlates to higher paychecks, and when the checks are cashed, the teller pays out in the largest bills possible unless the payee requests some $20's/$10/etc.
The problem with large bills on commuter rail is where does the conductor or trainmen go when they run out of change. There aren't many change sources when you're on an inbound trip on a Sunday afternoon. I think some passengers know this and offer the $50 and $100 bills hoping the collector can't make change, thus getting a free ride. When dealing with the public you run across all kinds of people.
Free Rides? Not on the subway. We tell the customer "I'm sorry but you have to spend $30 (or $63) befroe we can take your $50 ($100) bill. I sugegst going up to the street and getting change at a store." If they refuse- "I'm sorry but I can not help you. I'm osrry." If they get rowdy- we call for assistance from the police who will usually reinforce our "decision" and either ask them to leaver or the police
will ask us to let them ride for free and we obey the police.
**disclaimer- while some material is based on official instructions, the opinions expressed are my own and not thsoe of MTA or NYCT***
[Free Rides? Not on the subway. We tell the customer "I'm sorry but you have to spend $30 (or $63) befroe we can take your $50 ($100) bill. I suggest going up to the street and getting change at a store." If they refuse- "I'm sorry but I can not help you. I'm sorry." If they get rowdy- we call for assistance from the police who will usually reinforce our "decision" and either ask them to leave or the police will ask us to let them ride for free and we obey the police.]
Why in the world would the police ask you to let someone ride for free in those circumstances?
Strange as it seems- it does happen!
Cops do this sometimes to prevent a situation from escalating into something worse.
Unfortunately, few systems in the United States have public restroom facilities. Thus, people (i.e. men riders) tend to use the station platform instead. At least that seems to be case on the CTA with Clark/Division on the Red Line being one of the worst situations. I understand that when the State Street Subway was built and originally opened there were restrooms at all the stations. These all have been closed over the years.
I don’t want to get into another thread of horror stories, but this is an area that the transit systems should have addressed long ago.
In Europe, most of the systems have restroom facilities at least at “key” stations on the system. In some cities, these are under the watchful eye of attendants, who are responsible for the cleaning of and maintaining supplies in the restroom. In Wien (Vienna Austria) the attendant expects a tip, usually a 1-Shilling coin, in return for safe, clean, and supplied restroom facilities. A small price to pay for such a necessity.
Why not here?
[Unfortunately, few systems in the United States have public restroom facilities. Thus, people (i.e. men riders) tend to use the station platform instead.]
Not just men. See some of the posts on nyc.transit :-)
[In Europe, most of the systems have restroom facilities at least at “key” stations on the system. In some cities, these are
under the watchful eye of attendants, who are responsible for the cleaning of and maintaining supplies in the restroom. In
Wien (Vienna Austria) the attendant expects a tip, usually a 1-Shilling coin, in return for safe, clean, and supplied
restroom facilities. A small price to pay for such a necessity.]
New York state law prohibits charging for use of restrooms. I'm not sure if an "expected" tip would be forbidden, but I suspect that would be the case.
When I lived in Chgo the bathrooms were still in service(50-60), and in NY late 60's a few were still serviceable--notably way out on the E,F, Queens line. Here in Ba Area the location determines the condition. BART/MUNI have toilets at all staffed stations mostly within fare control. The paper towels have recently been replaced with electric air driers in town. In turn even thouygh I regularly see cleaners the in town toilets are grungy. The Fremont station(45+miles out at end of line) still has paper trowels and is cleaner. Although I agree that they would cost money to maintain, I believe they would be worth the cost. And yes the judges need to be educated--perhaps atour as station cleaners for jurists is in order.
I still think that they should still be free.
I don't think there is anything wrong with using a few million dollars of the surplus to put in, and maintain, a few dozen free bathrooms system wide. As I mentioned above, maitainance and sanitary concerns could be helped along by self-cleaning, single-toilet units, security could be helped along by a timer and/or being buzzed in by a Clerk. Perhapse an outside video camera could watch the doors as a further deturent. I am not suggesting that this would, or should, be the Ideal bathroom, but neither is Peeing at the end of the platform at Borough Hall, or 2nd Avenue. Why can't the TA invest a little bit of the surplus in a few dozen toilet units strictly as a service courtesy and keep them maintained with some of the money they currently spend cleaning Urin soaked stations and patroling for violators?
Again I'm not suggesting that every station have a bathroom with a valet and a shoe shine. Just a few dozen well placed units, most of which would be in stations that see a lot of traffic and have some kind of security presence anyway. I mean really, a day does not go by when you don't see 6 cops standing around waiting for someone to jump the turnstyle at a major station, it doesn't take a leap or millions of dollars to ask one of those cops to keep one of his eyes on the door to a self cleaning toilet.
I wonder who will be the first person to challenge, in State Court, getting a $60 ticket for urinating at the end of the platform! "rich people can afford to us the bathroom in the subway" he will argue. "that's discrimination"
First, is the post right when it says that 55 stations have working rest rooms? I know Stillwell Ave. does, and I think Wall Street (4,5) does, but where else?
Second, remember, these rest rooms were closed in the first place for a reason: they were unsafe hell holes. Any and all riff-raff did anything and everything imaginable in these rest rooms (men with prostitutes, men anonymously with other men, drug dealers dealing, homeless people camping out, etc.) Asking the legislature to write an exeption in the free toilet law for the subways (and the NYC parks for that matter) is not too much to ask. Keeping an attendant in the pay rest room is the best way to keep the riff-raff out and provide the rest of us with clean, sanitary facilities.
An attendant is absolutely necessary. Not only should the attendant have a radio so that he/she can call the police if something illegal is taking place; but they would continually clean the facility. The unfortunate reality is that most men in this city have all the manners of a wild dog. Why is it so difficult to lift the seat when uriniating, or flushing after business is taken care of? Why are there always puddles on the floor by the urinals? Do men really have no sense of aim? I recognize that many of us already suffer through these indignities in our places of work; but its 10 times worse in public facilities. Attendants can keep this kind of nonsense to a minimum. Look at Penn Station (yes I know the facilities are free, but the fact that they're in the waiting area where you're supposed to have a ticket, thereby providing a deturrant), when the attendants do their job right, the facility is useable. I think the same will hold true on the subway.
The money is not there (surplus or not) to properly maintain these facilities for free. Both the TA and the public would like to see that money to go other projects, mainly improved service. Therefore, a modest fee (perhaps 50 cents) is the best way to go. I'll even take it a step further: a private company, rather than the TA, should run these facilites for a profit! Then we'll get facilities so clean that we'll want to s**t for joy!
I got the stats directly from the newspaper article. Many end-of-line stations have facilities:Main St., Stillwell Ave.,Rockaway Park, Pelham Station, Glenwood Rd., are a few examples. Times Square did also before the renovation. (I think.) Willets Point does also. I presume there are more. Making a mess seems to be some type of human problem: My wife tells me that the women's rooms in many places are disaster areas. I agree that pay facilities run by an outside company for profit would probably make the most sense--assuming someone could make a profit without charging a high fee.
[I agree that pay facilities run by an outside company for profit would probably make the most sense--assuming someone could make a profit without charging a high fee.]
Pay facilities most definitely would require full-time attendants in order to avoid turning into horror shows. Which means that the fees would have to be high enough to cover the attendants' salaries, not to mention other expenses. There isn't a whole lot of evidence as to whether the fees would be sufficient. Fancy restaurants and other places may have restroom attendants, but in those cases the attendants depend on tips. We can hardly expect subway riders to tip!
"Pay facilities most definitely would require full-time attendants in order to avoid turning into horror shows."
Not necessarily. As others have pointed out, there are automated, self-cleaning one-person lavatories being manufactured today. The fact that the facility self-cleans itself at regular intervals not only keeps the place from becoming a pigsty, it also prevents people taking up residence inside -- my understanding is that one does NOT want to be inside one of these high-tech wonders when it's in a self-cleaning cycle!
The tradeoff is high capital cost but low maintenance for the automated facility, versus relatively low capital costs (fixing the existing locked lavatories) but high labor costs for a manned facility. But as others have pointed out, restrooms are needed at key stations, and are not necessary at every station on the system.
["Pay facilities most definitely would require full-time attendants in order to avoid turning into horror shows."
Not necessarily. As others have pointed out, there are automated, self-cleaning one-person lavatories being manufactured today. The fact that the facility self-cleans itself at regular intervals not only keeps the place from becoming a pigsty, it also prevents people taking up residence inside -- my understanding is that one does NOT want to be inside one of these high-tech wonders when it's in a self-cleaning cycle!]
That's true, but the self-cleaning facilities still would be subject to vandalism.
As it has been said at American Standard, "Piss on It". If you don't provide a place to piss it might happen in corners, elevators or other places. Elevators need to made out of stainless steel with diamond plate stainless steel floors.
At Cell Block D at Alcatraz prison there was a hole in the floor to piss in. Cell Block D was for solitary confinement.
When you have to go, you have to go and I must go.
Noticed on a recent post that Subtalk is now over 30000 messages. The quality of the posts is improving too. Congratulations Dave!
(It's actually way more than that- if you recall the "old" SubTalk software had it's own numbering system and it didn't occur to me to carry the highest number over to the new/current system.)
It took over a year to get to post 30,000-> the first post on the new/current system was made on Feb 19, 1998.
I still have all the old posts from both systems but unfortunately I don't have a system that's fast enough to make access to them very easy. I toss around ideas for databasing or indexing the old posts into some sort of searchable system but I haven't come up with anything practical or fast enough to be worthwhile.
-Dave
While waiting, as usual, for my morning B train, a train bearing the marking of "V" pulled into the station. The train ran the normal B route, but if it was a simple case of mis-marking, how come I've never even heard of the "V" train? Any ideas?
I'm sure it was a case of mis-marking. "V" has never been used in service. But, if you read the posts here, specifically those about the Manhattan Bridge and the 63rd St. Connector you'll see a lot of speculation about a possible "V" train.
-Dave
There are some jobs in the B division R.T.O. pick book that come under the line V. These jobs usually do one trip on the road in the rush hour then work in the yard.For example,the V you saw on the B line does a trip to Bedford Park then lays up to Concourse yard. These V jobs exist in a few locations because they are different from regular road jobs.The regular motorman was probably absent and the replacement probably didn't know to keep the train signed up to B.
Is there also a V job that heads up to Concourse yard over the Brighton line during the PM rush hours? Because on a couple of occasions, I've seen R-68 trains with V signs although only on the sides; the ends had D or Q signs (this was before 1997 when the B and Q switched rolling stock).
I would hope that any motorman would know what the valid route letters are. It's not like they're complicated or change that often.
I know there is the "H" used internally for Rockaway park Shuttle. Are there other "Unofficial Routes" like V or H.
In the I.R.T, the equivalent of the "V" job that I described in my previous post is the "U".
I thought of mentioning that one. This was the 2 rerouted over the Lexington, wasn't it?
No, in the I.R.T, there is a job on each line beginning with the letter "U". These jobs are different from regular jobs on the particular line.For example,on the # 7 line,a regular job may call for 4 round trips on the road.There is a "U" job on the #7 line that calls for 1 round trip,then WAA(Work as assigned),in the terminal or in the yard. Why it is done in this fashion,I'll never be able to figure out.
At lunchtime today, I had to go to MacDonalds (near Park Street) and the bank (near Government Center). On a nice day... it's a nice walk between the two. But it's raining today, so why not a nice Green Line ride? Upon arriving on the Lechmere-bound platform at Park Street at 12:05, something caught my eye. WHOA! It's the Type-8, on the inner track. Acutally, a train of two cars, 3803 (lead car, A position forward), followed by 3802 as its trailer. In 3803 were about 20 "suits"; I did not recognize any of them as MBTA or government dignitaries; nor were there any press nearby. There was one gentleman in a wheelchair. So my guess is this was a demonstration of the car and its ADA capabilities for one or more groups. In the trailer car, there was just an operator and an Inspector.
After about ten minutes, it departed around the Park Street loop, and headed westbound - presumably to Riverside (as it was signed). Upon start-up, there is a high-pitched whine, similar to the Breda cars on Washington DC's subway system. Too bad I don't normally take my camera to lunch!! An interesting note - it has bright red "hubcaps," each inscribed BREDA. The manufacturer's name is also on a decal on the side of the car. Hmmm.. Boeing isn't prominently labeled on the LRVs...
There's a picture of the car on the NE Transit Web site.
>Hmmm.. Boeing isn't prominently labeled on the LRVs...
I'm sure the MBTA keeps it that way, and Boeing is glad they do!!!
It took 20 years but the Boeing cars remaining in service are now pretty reliable. Of course that meant total replacement of the doors, air compressors, AC systems and couplers plus lots of tinkering elsewhere. The all electric PCC cars had not achieved that feat in 30 years and went to the scrapper under a cloud. Two cars (3208 and 3209 I think) were overhauled at Everett and shipped directly to Watertown to be scrapped! Meanwhill, with their third generation of replacements arriving, the MU air cars continue to serve the Mattapan Ashmont line reliably. (And they can be made wheelchair accessible by removing a stanchion from the center door and using a low mini-platform and ramp).
The Type-8 trip (cars 3803/3802) I saw yesterday was just in advance of its first revenue run on the D/Riverside line. There was little hoopla; it just segued from a dignitary trip to revenue service. This according to an article in today's Boston Globe on the non-event.
Riding the Culver down to the local census office at Avenue X yesterday (I was doing some test fieldwork with the Bureau), I noticed additional 4th, and sometimes 5th, rails between the running rails, secured to the ties. They did not run continously, but did run for some length. They were pretty rusty. What are they for?
My guesses.
1) They help to limit sway on the elevated structure (the Culver doesn't shake near as much as the Flushing line).
2) These are old rails -- when the TA replaced the running rails, it didn't bother to haul the old ones away.
[Riding the Culver down to the local census office at Avenue X yesterday (I was doing some test fieldwork with the Bureau), I noticed additional 4th, and sometimes 5th, rails between the running rails, secured to the ties. They did not run continously, but did run for some length. They were pretty rusty. What are they for?]
They're known as "black rails." Their purpose is to keep the train wheels from going too far off-track in case of a derailment. Without black rails, a train that derails on an elevated structure runs a risk of toppling off onto the street below. Hence their use mainly on elevated structures.
The "black rails" are similar to the additional rail that is present on curves on most subway trackage whether El or submerged. The additional rail is found on the inside of the curve track and aides in helping to keep a train from derailing at those locations.
Except thase are 'guide rails' and actually contact the flange of the wheel normally.
-Hank
The purpose of the rails located inside the gauge of the running rails is to keep a train from going over the side in a derailment. These rails are expected to guide a derailed train and keep it from taking a plunge off the structure. Many railroads also employ "guardrails" on their bridge structures.
In Chicago, the ‘L’ running on the steel structure is “protected” by four guides. First, on the out side of the running rail, creosote treated wood beams are attached to the cross ties and parallel outside the running rails about 8 inches. Inside the gauge of the running rails are two steel rails that parallel the same 8 inches. The exact number of inches escapes me right now. On curves, the inside-running rail located on the inside of the curve is turned on its side and is very close to the running rail. Only enough room for the flange travel is allowed. If you’ve ridden the Chicago ‘L’ you will know that the system has its share of S-curves and curves in general. Also, in Chicago, unlike other cities having elevated railways, there is NO side guard or catwalk to hold a train on the structure in the event of a derailment. Anyway, the theory is that both the wood and steel rails would guide the trucks of a derailed car keeping it on the structure.
The CRT (Chicago Rapid Transit) put out a publication on the ‘L’ and the use of guardrails was discussed therein. I have a copy of the booklet, however, it is buried with other railroading “stuff”, but I’m sure I can find it if you are interested in the subject further.
About a year ago, when ties on the LIRR Atlantic Ave. Viaduct were being replaced, the steel guard rails were removed and longitudinal ties (as described in your post) were installed parallel to the running rail....I was told that this was a NYCT "standard"...although I have also been told that NYCT uses the longitudinal ties to protect the cross ties WHEN a car goes on the ground. I would b interested in theory behind the exterior ties, as it would seem that, with out interior gurard rails, the exterior ties would be of no use in restraining the truck.
I've seen these inner rails on the 1/9 elevated structure, and the Atlantic Ave elevated LIRR structure. I'm sure I've noticed them elsewhere also.
David: I e-mailed you but I guess it didn't go through. Did you receive the items that I mailed to you? They were posted on the 14th.
Thanks,Larry.
Just thought I'd let it be known that I saw the Sperry Rail Geometry Car over in the Canarsie yard this morning. Got an easy view of it since it was rush our and the yards were clear of 'L' trains.
It may be over there due to the extensive track work currently underway on track P2 between B'way Junction and Atlantic Ave.
Doug aka BMTman
It made 2 trips on the Canarsie line after the PM rush Wednesday nite, then returned to CIYD. After the PM rush Tuesday, it made the rounds on the J & M.
I see the great cellular phone debates continues. The public wants all their freedom. Let them use the cellular phones and be loud. Since everyone does what they want anyway then let the passengers with cameras take photographs and videos around the people with the cellular phones. It's a free for all and nobody's rights are violated.
The ACLU would be proud.
I believe that the LIRR and MNRR among others, are planning to designate cellular and non-cellular rail cars. My suburban friends always enjoy the type of passenger who makes 'big deals' over the cell phone in earshot of all onboard. The airlines have a more serious problem because cellular phones interfere with the avionics.
Consequently, on every flight an announcement is made that use of cellular phones is prohibited by Federal Regulation. Pagers and laptop computers must be turned off during takeoff and landing.
Cell phones are BANNED by the FCC not the FAA, problem being at 30,000 feet you get more than one cell site. You can crash huge part of the region if you use your Cell Phone in the air.
As far as airplanes, there is NO LAW from the FAA, the FAA rule leaves it up to each carrier to set up the ban on electronic devices. The federal regulation you would violate would be the one on following orders of the aircraft crew. If they told you to do something and you didn't you can be arrested and charged in federal court.
[I believe that the LIRR and MNRR among others, are planning to designate cellular and non-cellular rail cars. My suburban friends always enjoy the type of passenger who makes 'big deals' over the cell phone in earshot of all onboard.]
Metro North has dropped its idea for phone-free cars. As far as I know, the LIRR never had such a plan in the first place.
Yeah, MN was considering it - as for the LIRR - they could care less.
Yes, and for this we can thank a compromise worked out by our government and the Soviets about twenty years ago. Seems that the frequency spectrum originally planned for cellular phones in this country was uncomfortably close to the frequencies used by the Soviet military for sensitive communications. To avoid a diplomatic incident, we changed our plans on relatively short notice; when we did so, we moved to a spectrum that included the harmonic frequency of certain key avionics. No one realized the potential impact at the time, or a different frequency spectrum would most likely have been selected. The problem is greatest with the older analog phones, which operate on a direct harmonic, but still exists with the more modern digital phones as well, which operate on a harmonic of the harmonic in one of their modes (as well as the multi-band phones, which can operate on both as necessary).
The Europeans have this problem too, as they were party to the same agreement. Their phones use a different communications protocol and a slightly different bandwidth but it's in the same piece of the spectrum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Many of my fellow passengers on the Red Line (WMATA) use them each morning. It's always interesting to hear people lose their connection when the train went into the tunnel and start cursing the phone. Then of course some of us have Bell Atlantic digital service that works in most of WMATA's tunnels.
Wayne
On a 1992 Nassau County Hagstrom map, it shows a 138th St. Station in the Bronx, near the IRT 138th St. Station. I guess on the old NY Central Line. Was there ever a station here?
Yes, the station was there! The entrance was right next to exit from the 138th St.-Grand Concourse subway station. How many trains stopped there, I don't know. It was demolished sometime around 1980, perhaps someone else knows the exact year. By 1992 it was surely gone. I also understand that the tracks were realigned to straighten the ROW when the station was removed.
[On a 1992 Nassau County Hagstrom map, it shows a 138th St. Station in the Bronx, near the IRT 138th St. Station. I guess on the old NY Central Line. Was there ever a station here?]
I believe there was, many years ago. Most if not all of its traces have been eliminated.
Quoting from Brennan's Guide (as linked from this site):
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/disused.bronx.html
The Bronx. A large stone station building stood W of the line N of 138th St, and a lesser wooden building on the E side. Because the old Grand Central had the engine yard and arrivals station on the E side, trains were run through the Bronx left-handed from 1888 to 1907, which is why the main station is on the W side, then the northbound side. This station was also called 138th Street, and had been known as Mott Haven in the 19th century (before Bronx borough and county existed). Closed by Metro North. Metro North realigned the tracks here to reduce curvature, with new bridges over 138th St, and most remaining traces of the station were destroyed. It had had side platforms and a center island platform, and along the E side of the embankment are still some pipe railings for a platform.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How did the old Paper Transfer work at the 161 St. / Yankee Stadium Station between the IRT and IND? Did you just get it at one token booth and hand it in at the other? Also, why is it that when you enter the IND part of the system the B/D. When you go down the stairs it also shows you can catch the 4 train too. I don't remember if they put the B/D signs on the 4 train elevated sturcture. My question here, why bother with putting the 4 on the B/D signs? To go down, only to go back up to the elevated?
I think the IRT token booth at 161st St. is closed during midnight hours. Therefore, during those times, you need to use the IND subway entrance and then go up the escalator to get the 4. So the subway entrance really does serve as an entrance to the 4 as well.
Before the enclosed transfer was built, you got a ticket when leaving the IRT and handed it in when entering the IND (or vice versa). You dropped the ticket into... a ticket chopper! Actually, the arrangement was pretty similar to what prevailed at Franklin/Fulton Aves. until recently.
That is correct. The eleveted booth is close so therefore you need to go downstairs and use the escalator transfer up the 4 Woodlawn-Jerome line.
Is this because more people probably use the B/D more often then the 4 in the night hours?
I believe it had something to do with the Bx55 3Av bus which had a free transfer to/from the subway at 161 St. Sometime after that bus started running in 1973 they decided to channel everyone from the bus into the IND station and I believe that during the daytime at least there was a separate entrance to the fare control zone for bus passengers but I'm not sure. After they entered the IND station they could go up to the IRT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Nope, it's a cost-sutting move. Why staff the extra booth, when few people will be there to use it?
-Hank
At this time I am working a lunch relief on the 4 line and use the D to connect to the A to get to 175. Very late at night 330-4am I notice that there are more people on the D at 161 than on the 4 but both lines are used and the 4 does run 10 cars all night.
(A lunch relief job is just that-- I go to different booths so the station agent can take a break-- eat lunch, restroom("comfort" in transit talk), personal phone calls (on pay phone), etc. Lunch reliefs also man part-time booths, escort station agents to/from part-time booths, open/close gates, watch gates, deliver/sort mail, etc. We have a schedule that says:
report at xxxx to booth yyyy. Lnuch relief booth yyyy from xxxx to xxxx on the Blank line, lunch relief ...., booth yyyy escort to booth zzzz, open ACA booth zzzz,)
for security reasons I am not posting specific schedules or booths. As far as escorts--we usually also have a police officer escorting the escort and station agent (If I am escorting "you" to the part-time booth, the police officer walks with both of us.) In some locations, we are not to escort or relieve unless the police are present.(here again, I will not post such a list and I will not respond to e-mail requests for such a list.)
Is there anyone on Subtalk who is well informed on iMac who might be able to give me some technical advice?
All depends on what browser you are using. Netscape seems to handle Subtalk fine on a Power PC 6100, but fails trying to read some of the larger items on the site. The G3, which is the same processor as the iMac seems ok too, but runs a higher level of Netscape at this school.
How can you get to use bullets on your postings? Somebody help me out here? Please?
OK here is the syntax:
(place the following in your post:)
<img src=http://www.nycsubway.org/bullets/current/n.gif>
and you will see the following:
The files are: (all extension 'gif'):
a,b,bb,c,d,db,dx,e,f,g,h,j,k,l,m,n,nx,q,qb,r,rx,s,t,v,w,z
Wayne
Hey Wayne, I don't know if you realize this but practically every time you give an example the < comes out wrong :-) (Try Preview!)
Anyway what he tried to say was this:
<img src=http://www.nycsubway.org/bullets/current/n.gif>
And what you'll see is this
-Dave
I love to take the 3 train. See it does not work. Help me out Wayne or David or anybody that knows how.
How do I transfer the bullets to my post?
You didn't type in any of the HTML that I quoted on my previous post. Please use the Preview function to see if it worked rather than posting a whole load of test posts.
-Dave
Im sorry I am computer illiterate here. Do I have to paste it on the screen?
Trying it out:
You're pretty lucky, your name has all subway letters. I've got some D's, I's, V's, and P's.
-Dave
You or Wayne should put all the unused letters in white bullets/black letters (like R-32/38 signs)
I wanted to do that with my name when I first saw you could do this, but I have an "I"
I've got a lot of I's too. But my mom only has 2, yet she can somehow see behind her head... :)
PS: Dang than N, I could be all blue....
Just testing....
And if it doesn't work-D'oh!
Use "Preview" to see if it works-- then you have a chance to correct it before posting screwups.
-Dave
Got it right at last.
Thanks to you and Wayne.
Just testing....
And if it doesn't work-D'oh!
Thanks to all those who responded to my Amtrak Tragedy post. It's nice to know that the people who write to this great web site share some of my views. I welcome pen pals. Anyone who loves trains, feel free to e-mail me anytime!
In the NY Daily News Thursday March 25, Page 40, is an article about hundreds of thousands of bus and subway riders are snubbing MetroCard fare breaks - and spending hundreds more dollars a year than they need to, transit officials said on Wednesday March 24.
About 900,000 of the transit system's 6 million daily riders were still using cash, tokens or pay-per-ride MetroCards in 1998 - a much higher number than predicted.
After the good people of subtalk get to read the rest of the article, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I understand that some people don't want to put out
the cash for a weekly or monthly card, but why would they
not use a pay-per-ride card and refill it? At least this
would give them the one free on ten. Daily News:Transit Fare Breaks Don't Appeal to All
Well, If you look at the numbers, i.e. 15 % of $6 M OR 4 of 5 customers use MetroCard, it says MOST folks are doing what the TA wants them to do. You're always going to get a portion that won't.
Beside the folks that have had a bad experience with MetroCards gobbling up their money, or just don't want to lay out that much money to get the discount, you need to factor in the casual customer.
At this depot, most of the money is MetroCard ... the token deposits have gone down by 2/3s. And on the Express, MetroCard use is up partly because the farebox doesn't take 50 cent piece or the large size dollar coin, but that's only a small part as we get very few SBA dollars that go in just fine.
This may change in the near future as the equip. ages & starts giving the customer more greif. I am gratified that Cubic had the mfg of the Read/Write heads here in NYC this week. How do I know this, I sent them some of our R/W reads that failed to look at. Maybe we cleaned them too hard, maybe they wore out ... we'll see.
Mr t__:^)
What a lot of people don't realize is that buying a $15 or more pay-per-ride MetroCard (MC) is a lot more cost efficient than buying the unlimited MC unless you take a lot more trips on the subway than just to and from work.
Here's why:
Take one work week: With five days, that's ten trips total, at a cost of $15 without the discount. So you buy a $15 MC, and get an extra ride. It would only pay to buy the $17 unlimited ride MC if you were taking more than 2 extra rides on the subway each week because not only are you not getting the extra free ride, but you are also spending $2 extra in buying the unlimited MC.
Same with the $63 unlimited - you would need to take more than 6 extra rides per month to make economic sense of buying this MC. With a $60 pay-per-ride MC, you would get 4 free rides. Plus, if buying the $63 unlimited MC, that's $3 more than the pay-per-ride = 2 rides. So 4 + 2 = 6 rides.
[In the NY Daily News Thursday March 25, Page 40, is an article about hundreds of thousands of bus and subway riders are snubbing MetroCard fare breaks - and spending hundreds more dollars a year than they need to, transit officials said on Wednesday March 24.
About 900,000 of the transit system's 6 million daily riders were still using cash, tokens or pay-per-ride MetroCards in 1998 - a much higher number than predicted.]
For people who ride only infrequently, without transfers, there may be no particular disadvantage to using cash/tokens/ppr MetroCards.
Well, this may surprise some of you but I only ride the subway 2-4 times a week outside of my normal commute (which is on the PATH). So, I put $20 on a Pay Per Ride Metrocard every few weeks. So do I fall into the 900,000 using a Pay per ride Metrocard? Sure. Do I get a fare break? Sure! 10% extra credit each time I fill up. I also bought a bunch of FunPasses for the days I know ahead of time that I'll need 3 or more subway/bus rides (like a subway "field trip").
The real questions are: how many token people are there, and how many people buy less than $15 worth of Pay Per Ride at a time. THOSE are the people not getting a discount-- not ALL of the Pay Per Riders.
-Dave
I'm one of those, I guess - a casual rider who doesn't trust the MetroCard. I have purchased the FunPass once, for my wife and I on a day when we knew we would be taking at least three trips; mine worked with only one rescan but hers required five or six rescans per turnstile (we swapped cards the last time we went through so I know it was her card and not the way she was swiping it). I've also had a $3 card give me only one ride. Yes, I might consider the FunPass again, but only because it gives me the freedom to exit the system in search of lunch in an unfamiliar neighborhood and re-enter if I don't find anything to my liking. Otherwise, I do all my riding for a day on one or two tokens.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's my take on the reason behind some folks not taking a liking to the MetroCard: many of the new immigrants (from the Carribean & South America, primarily) are suspicous of 'high tech' systems and the like. Many have come from countries with overbearing governments and see (in their minds) that a computerized card system could be used as a form of 'tracking' the individual (Yes, I have spoken to people from the Islands and many have this fear).
Also, the other factor -- and more likely the culprit -- is the fact that many people still feel that the MetroCard system has bugs in it that will cause things like losing rides from the card reader 'overswipping' the magnetic strip.
Just thought I'd lend my 'two cents' worth.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
I have a monthly MetroCard, but the MTA is also counting me in the 900,000 if you ask me. For example this month I will ride the express bus to Staten Island twice. This means my Monthly $63 card is no good. I can't even swipe the monthly and add $1.50 so I'm one of the people buying a $3.00 metrocard or even faster (like yesterday) two tokens.
I swipe my monthly to go from Queens Plaza (subway) to get the X5 with my two tokens at Lex. I don't even use the express bus enough to buy a $15 card and don't want to keep two cards and the confusion.
I use the subway 6 days a week sometimes more then twice a day. Big savings on the monthly card. I never come near the $120 for an express bus unlimited card so I have to pay the extra fare for the express bus.
I think the continued use of tokens for the full $1.50 is great. Its like a special tax on luddites. Perhaps they should keep the tokens, call them Transit Classic (ie. Classic Coke) and charge $1.60! I'm happy for people to make their statements, as long as they pay.
As for me, I'm still waiting for a safe and secure way to buy Metrocards with a credit or debit card. Transit is just about the last cash purchase I make.
You can use the Metro Vending Machine at Columbus Circle or buy it on the web at Cityscape.com
Or call one of your friendly "private" bus companies who will happy to take you credit card money OR a personal check, plug plug :-)
P.S. They/we don't sell every flavor, sorry
Seriously, we may be able to get out of this money loosing business if the volume of cutomers goes down enough once the MVM & TA Web site gets going in earnest.
Mr t__:^)
When I rode daily, I bought the $17 card, but I also had an extra $15 PPR card for when I chose to use the x-bus. Now I use only the PPR card, since my trips are now one-way, plus 1 x-bus trip a week.
Having both was a good thing when I had to commute to Manhattan round trip, and I would visit my girlfriend in Riverdale on weekends, as well. Then, we'd usually go to Manhattan to find a movie or dinner, or Shea for a ball game. The PPR card gave me the flexability to take the x-bus either way, if I liked (Liberty Lines to Riverdale, or the x1 home)
One thing I have yet to try is transfering from the x1 to the Liberty Lines express bus....
-Hank
You are just one classic example of why the TA designed these rules;there must be at least hundreds in the same category.
When the MetroCard was introduced it was designed to be a vehicle for future discounts, possible peak/off-peak fares(yes, the software can detect peak./non-peak but bo definitions of what is "non-=peak". AT present the computer in the booth always shows "peak"). There is a poster in subway cars that says " Chocolate or Vanilla, anchovies or pepperoni..." NYCT is not trying force you into buying MetroCards. The choice is yours. I am a station agent-I still get people buying 30-40 tokens at one time (the limit in one visit is 50. If they wait in line again they can get another 50 or if they have a friend with them have the friend buy 50 (give ther money to the friend so there is no selling of tokens--yes, we'll call the police if unathorized individuals sell tokens or swipes.)and then give the second 50 to the first person.)
Now personal opinion- I have noticed also that many senior citiznes stick with tokens since they are "tried and true". Many people just do not to change!
**while this post contains material from official sources, the opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
Yes, the token has its faithful users among seniors.
My wife's grandma is steadfast in this. I think the security of knowing that your carfare is physically present in the form of a token and is not going anywhere appeals to a lot of depression-era folks, especially when every penny is accounted for. I think she is like many token users in that she is cash-under-the-mattress kind of woman.
This generation in particular is very suspicious of schemes which would have you convert what money you have to more "sybolic" representations of value which offer enticements without obvious drawbacks. This is not without reason- look at the history of the stock market & banking industry. I think the motto is "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." And while I gladly buy my unlimited metrocards, and love the flexibility, I know that her longer-term wisdom has its place. After all, who knows what kind of shenanigans the wrong kind of higher-up at the MTA could put the metrocard up to (even if they aren't doing it now).
E.G.- What if buying carfare were like buying plane tickets! AAAGH!
Good post, Damian -- and much food for thought.
With full implementation of Cubic fare collection, and the offer of many new ways to buy your Farecards from the CTA, the CTA token is going into history May 31, 1999.
Just as Damian points out in his posting, there are many transit riders in Chicago that lament the loss of these little dime-sized disks that have been around since 1947.
I know two daily riders who are adamantly opposed to the removal of tokens. The CTA began its campaign to retire the token when they stopped giving the discount (10 for the price of 9), when the Farecards were first implemented back in 1997. But those loyal to the token kept on buying them. Then in December, with the announcement of the offer of 7-day and 30-day passes, the CTA stated that tokens would no longer be sold and would be accepted until 5/31/99. The token loyalists went out and bought up every roll of tokens they could get there hands on to have a supply until the end date.
CTA even made a feeble attempt to counter the token mentality. They are offering 10 single ride fare cards in a package for $15.00. You can guess the result. Each card is used once and then dropped on the floor of the bus or in the entryway to the station. This is one of the lamest ideas to come out the Merchandise Mart recently.
One of my friends, who is the same age as me - a few years shy of 50 - has been complaining bitterly about the elimination of tokens. Some routes in Chicago have MAN buses (standards and articulated) that have double stream front doors. They have the ability to load more quickly then single stream door buses. My friend says "When you have a token you can use the left side door and drop your token in while the other people are fumbling with their Farecards." Some much for faster service.
No, I don't consider almost 50 being depression-era, but then, even at this age, people are not the big spenders that the younger generation is.
The suits at the TA & MTA will be watching what happens in Chicago this May because they want to do it real bad also.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the TA or DOT.
Mr t__:^)
Since the turnstiles are all designed to accept tokens, I don't see what the TA has to lose by keeping them -- if the token machines can be modified to dispense both tokens and Metrocards. It may cost more, but if people are paying more, then so what? The tokens would simply be an alternative to the one-ride Metrocard.
[Since the turnstiles are all designed to accept tokens, I don't see what the TA has to lose by keeping them -- if the token machines can be modified to dispense both tokens and Metrocards. It may cost more, but if people are paying more, then so what? The tokens would simply be an alternative to the one-ride Metrocard.]
According to CTA, the cost of handling money and tokens has become so expensive when compared to Farecard machine vending and access.
Also, the CTA had concluded that it is "saving" $11 million plus in what could be contributed to “employee theft”. Even today, $11 million is a little bit of cash that can be squandered on meaningless other programs.
Anyway, I really can’t see where this move, to remove tokens, will raise the current usage of Farecards higher than the 60% currently already achieved. Those die-hard token users will only switch to “cash”, either six quarter or a $1 bill and change, which slows bus boarding even more. The usage of Farecards is higher on the Rapid Rail than on buses due to the fact that all stations are equipped with vending machines.
My idea is to have a two tier fare system. $1.50 a ride using a Farecard, and $2.00 for those using cash. I’m sure that would cause a howl here in the Windy City.
[... the CTA had concluded that it is "saving" $11 million plus in what could be contributed to “employee theft”.]
Well if we're talking about bills & coin I might believe it. Here in NYC it's coins only, except NY Bus Service in the Bronx. It's pritty hard & stupid to steal coin, i.e. how do you get a $1,000 bag of quarters out of the money room & into you car every day without getting caught ? Also, what are you going to do with them when you get them home ? An lot of work for a small pay off ... I wouldn't do it, but then maybe someone else would.
Mr t__:^)
[Well if we're talking about bills & coin I might believe it. Here in NYC it's coins only, except NY Bus Service in the Bronx. It's pritty hard & stupid to steal coin, i.e. how do you get a $1,000 bag of quarters out of the money room & into you car every day without getting caught]
No, this wasn't happening at in the money room. This loss of revenue happened at the rail stations. You see, prior to Farecards, the agent sat in a booth and collected tokens, passes, cash fares and even made change. The fares were not deposited into a secure farebox. The agent "rang up" or actually punched in the amount of fare that was paid. This was displayed as the customer went trough the turnstile. Most riders didn't pay any attention to what the display showed. However, the trick was to collect $1.50 and ring it in as a "transfer". Thus, the agent was on their way to getting lunch money.
I'm not saying all agents practiced this. However, there have been many stories in the newspapers reporting their instances. One, back in the 1980's, were a entire ring including a supervior was involved.
Looking at it this way, if agents are only skimming a few fares a day, and you times that by the 140 some stations with two or three shifts, probably more skimming at the high volume station, the "take" adds up quickly.
And we once had a guy drill a little hole in the farebox so he could pull the bills out one at a time ... what folks won't do to get a few dollars ?
Mr t__:^)
1. But tokens & coin have to be counted in the back room.
2. If they go to a SmartCard, it will probally need a new turnstile & farebox that's when the token will go away.
Mr t__:^)
Peek/Off-Peek is alive and well in Queens on the surface coaches, i.e. Peek at 6 to 10 AM, and 3 to 7 PM, Monday to Friday. Pay cash, travel off-peek and get a discount on every ride. I think you have to wait for one of Rudy's "private" fleet, sorry.
Mr t__:^)
This collector called in a favor & now has Chicago "Go Card". It's a lot thinner then I thought it was going to be, i.e. only about twice a thick as a credit/Metro card.
Now, who Washington DC wants to trade some of the NYC MetroCards with lovely graphics for your smart card (can be plain on the back, I won't mind) ?
Mr t__:^)
Today is Thursday and the Court Street Escalators are still running backwards!!!
That's great but do you think anyone who actually can do anything about it reads this board?
-Dave
Is there a number I can call???
Posted in every station should be the name & number (and picture!) of the Station Manager. Look near the token booth. Call them. You can get more general numbers from the MTA web site (http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/)
-Dave
Hey at least they are running!!
Try Smith and 9th Street when both are not running.....
So use it backwards. It's great cardiovascular exercise!
And cheaper than a health club membership to use a stairmaster. Don't get me started.....
-Hank
Last night, while waiting on the platform at 15th street, a work train stopped at the station. It was a whole train of converted M-3s. The front few cars has steel plates where the windows used to be, and there were *armed* guards riding it. Inside were racks of blue steel boxes, roughly the size and shape of large briefcases.
The back half of the train had its windows painted black, and the cars were full of black trash bags. The train stayed at the station for about 3 minutes. A minute later, another train just like it came in the other direction.
Were these combo money/trash trains? That's sure what they looked like. I had no idea Philly had trains like that. Does anyone have more info?
SEPTA has had these trains in operation for a long time but it always used regular Budds pulled from the ranks of service cars. The trash train has had Budds since about '90 as far as I know - these had the seats removed, etc (I know the trains are dirty but even SEPTA would want to keep the trash trains out of passenger service!). I haven't heard about the special money train.
The Broad St Subway has two special K cars built for non-revenue service. Every once in a while you'll hear a local railfan ranting about the two cars that were removed from service and converted to non-revenue use... (and they usually don't believe when they hear about the true origin of these cars).
I think the Budds in this service are 727-28 and 845-46.
Bobw: Do you have anymore info on those two cars.They sound very interesting.Thanks
Larry,RedbirdR33
Basically the cars are the same as the passenger K-cars with the windows blanked out and the only side doors at the center. From the front they are identical to the K's.
I've only seen these cars once on the El near Girard.What a creepy vision they were!
Fellow Subtalkers, you should check out Fox's new cartoon series, "Futurama." It will be on this Sunday at 8:30. It is set in New York in the year 3000. When I read the AP article on it, I was surprised to find that the subway operates through pneumatic tubes. Imagine that? It's funny how Matt Groening (Futurama's creator, also of Simpsons fame) looks to a pneumatic subway as the wave of the distant future, because it already existed here in the late 1800's.
Seems like underground transit in the Big Apple might come full circle, at least in this new cartoon it will. Hope it's as funny as the Simpsons.
Ahh, a fellow Simpsonite!
Tell me this,
On the episode when the family went to NYC so they could retrieve their car, Marge and the kids rode the subway. Can you tell which line and what type of car?(hint-think of where they entered NYC- and they ran a totally wrong division train on this line).
And isn't it spelled "Kwygibo"?:):)
I dont know the car. But i know the route.
Could it be the N or R trains? The Simpsons came from the Port Authority, Marge and the kids went towards Broadway/ChinaTown then to Central Park on the Lexington Ave Line 4,5,or 6 from Canal.
Homer, on the other hand, went to the Trade Center from the A or C or the E to the last stop. Another possiblity is the 1 or 9 since it also comes from the Port Authority.
Is there an answer to this question? Or am I just talking to myself again? And WHAT KINDA QUESTION IS THIS?!!??!!??!!? hehe :)
Hmm, wasn't it the train with an IRT interior?
Yes it was(I think I mentioned this recently as a film flub).
And note, when Homer mentioned he had to go from the P.A. to Penn Station, with anyone knowing how lazy he is, why didn't he take the 8th Avenue?(Maybe to avoid the pimps and the CHUDS:):))
A while back there were several threads that used the term "skell". Each thread seemed to use it somewhat differently, so I never got a clear definition of exactly who/what a "skell" is. Anyone care to offer a definition?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[A while back there were several threads that used the term "skell". Each thread seemed to use it somewhat differently, so I never got a clear definition of exactly who/what a "skell" is. Anyone care to offer a definition?]
It's usually taken to mean a derelict, particularly one who sleeps/panhandles/relieves himself/etc. on the subway. "Homeless person" is the p.c. term.
Thanks. I wasn't sure if it was that or if it referred to those who lurk with evil intent (knife and rob, etc.).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's used for that purpose too, if you watch NYPD Blue.
I just read an article on the word, but I can't place my hands on it or remember to source.
Basically a skell is a "lowlife" (i.e. a person) It is jargon used typically by the police types. I've heard Andy Sipowicz on NYPD Blue refer to almost everyone as a skell.
[Basically a skell is a "lowlife" (i.e. a person) It is jargon used typically by the police types. I've heard Andy Sipowicz on NYPD Blue refer to almost everyone as a skell.]
NYPD Blue's use of the term is inaccurate as far as the subway is concerned. In the subway context, a skell is a bum or derelict, particularly one that begs on the trains, what the p.c. types call a "homeless person." The term should not be used as a general description of lowlifes or criminals, unless they happen to be derelicts.
Is there another term used to describe the lowlife/criminal element?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I was a young kid,on of the fondest memories i have was to sneak through the turnstile at the 111th st station on the J line,when the R-9s were running.From the roaring sound they made upon accelration,to the kerrrrrrrr-tahhhhhhhhhh sounds that the airbrakes made,i fell in love with the subway system.It was a extremly brief love affiar though,for in the mid 1970s when the mentally retarded maggots at the T.A.decided to scrap the r-9s in favor of equipment that not only was an excruciatingly painful to look at,but was as comfortable as a single engine cessna flying through a hurricane.The N.y.C.T.A.is the worst run system in the world!!Thier motto is,if you dont get burned,tortured,shot,stabbed,maimed or killed all this while going at the breakneck speed of 25MPH,you have no right to complain!Oh well at least I had those few moments of pleasure when I was a child.
The R1-9 series of cars were also a favorite of mine. However, the NYCTA also has to answer to its parent, the MTA -- so I wouldn't hold them totally responsible for the way things turned out.
Also, come on back and ride the system today -- it's come a long way since the 1970s (although minus REAL subway cars like the R9!).
It's too bad you weren't around 111th St. in the late 1940's when it was the last stop for open platform gate cars during rush hour service from Bridge-Jay St. There were always a dozen of more of them laid up on the center track there. They were antiques even then but I'll bet you would have liked them too.
Ah for the good old days.....Karl B.
It's true the R-9s made some of the best sounds with their acceleration and the braking, but do not sell short the ABs and the D-types. The ABs had their own sound when braking, but their acceleration was as classic as the R9s if not more so. As for the D-types; they made a slightly less groaning noise when accelerating, but they made the same noise as the R9s when braking, since they had the same brake units!
Now for a little known fact: During the late 1960s the failure rate for the R9s was so great and the rebuilt ABs were running so well, many in the TA wanted to scrap the R9s ahead of the remaining ABs!
As for the D-types: they ran until the summer of 1965 and hadn't been
outshopped for the last ten years, yet they went to the scrappers in perfect running condition and if it weren't for some dubious employees in the TA who MIGHT have recieved kick backs from the scrapper, and the higher ups inthe TA who we all know recieved kickbacks from the manufacturers of new cars, the D-types might have lasted at least another 10 years! Remember, the D-types were much newer than the remaining ABs and were not even 40 years old when they met their fate.
Sad, but while I love the R9s, the ABs and D-types were their fore runners and performed yeoman service with very little maintenance, while the R9s in their twilight were failing at alarming rates.
Mike H
I didn't realize the Triplexes made the same braking sounds as the R-1/9s. Since I never rode on the Triplexes, I didn't have any basis for comparison. IMHO, the BMT standards moaned and groaned exactly the same as the R-1/9s, although they may have been a tad quieter at speed. The brakes on the standards gave off a "tchhhhh" sound just as they came to a stop, whereas the R-1/9s would emit "tchhh - hssss" sounds as the brakes were applied. I would hear this as many as three or four times as the train would slow to a stop.
I totally agree that the Triplexes were retired way too soon. They would have really come in handy a decade later when deferred maintenance was the rule. You could say that the Triplexes were about the closest thing to a maintenance-free car that there ever was.
There was a post a while back which mentioned the high failure rates the R-1/9s were experiencing in 1966, so much so that a group of R-16s were loaned to the IND and another group of BMT standards were literally pulled off the scrap line and placed back in revenue service.
The R-1/9s suffered from the well-we-have-new-cars-on-the-way-so-we-won't-fix-the-old-ones-anymore syndrome, and were sadly neglected during their final years.
Steve,
You have a good memory about the ABs literally being pulled off the scrap line. I talked to Don Harold the other day and he told me that the R9s did have such a high failure rate that the ABs that were already marked with "S" for scrap on their fronts while sitting on the middle tracks of the Sea Beach were put back into service with the "S" painted over! (though plainly still visible!)
Here's another thing I found out about the ABs from him: Apparently the last ABs went out of service on the Myrtle-Chambers line with no notice to the public on a Wednesday. Don found out from railfan friends of this, and inquired from the Fresh Pond Yardmaster if there were any ABs still serviceable that could be put back into service for a final run. The yardmaster told him he had 2 trains of ABs still sitting in the yard in running condition. One of the sets was then scheduled to make a final run on Friday in the afternoon round trip from Chambers to Metropolitan and back. The TA then announced an official final run on that day and the ABs made their finalbow with railfans fully in attendance!
Oh well, how I miss those cars, the D-types and the R9s. I'm not a fan of the IRT, but I guess if I had to choose between no subway and the IRT, I would have to take it!
Another funny thing, when the TA was in such need of additonal equipmment in the 1950s they purchased some excess SIRT cars figuring since they looked like ABs they should be able to MU. Lo and behold, the SIRT cars had the same brake systems as the R9s and D-types and could not MU with the ABs!
Finally, If you saw the mystery photo of the 2 ABs on the culver el turning into West 8th street station, I have the answer as to why it was a two car train. According to Don, the normal rush consist on the culver was 8 cars during the rush hours and 6 cars during non rush hours. Just before the beginning of the rush hour a 2 car non revenue equipment train would come out of the Coney Island yard and head southbound to Stillwell terminal where it would couple up to a 6 car train thus making the 8 cars required for the rush hour. The same was done on the West End, except some of the 2 car consists would sit at the bumper blocks at Stillwell until the rush hour at which time a 6 car train would pull into the station and couple up to the 2 cars sitting at the bumper block.
Hope to hear back
Mike H
Actually, the R 1-9s have a long history on the BMT, dating back to when they were new. Prior to the opening of the 8th Ave. subway in 1932, R 1s made test runs on the Sea Beach line (with some reports that they actually made some revenue runs). In 1948, when the R 10s were being placed in service on the "A" train, some R 1s were reassigned to the 4th Ave. Local line to alleviate the car shortage on the BMT. And, of course, after the openenig of the Chrystie St. connection in 1967, the R 1-9s appeared all over the old BMT.
I'm trying to remember who posted the info about the BMT standards being yanked off the scrap line in 1966 and getting a last minute stay of execution. It may have been Redbird R-33 (was that you, Larry?). That was right at the time the R-38s were just starting to be delivered. Was it specifically the R-9s which were failing at such an alarming rate back then, or could it have been the earlier prewar R units? The reason I'm curious is that virtually all of the R-9s and most of the R-7s wound up on the Eastern Division in 1969, where they ended their careers.
I heard that the SIRT cars also had different electric portions that the BMT standards. In any case, it was quite a surprise when it was discovered that those two classes of cars could not m. u. with each other.
While I rode the standards on the Canarsie line during their final two years of service and remember them well, I wasn't much a fan of theirs simply because they had no end signs. I also thought at the time that they looked pretty awful, but then I was approaching 11 years of age in 1967 and didn't know any better.
Steve: It was me. The fault wasn't so much with the R1/9's as the TA's(at that time) policy of deferred maintenance which hit the Jamaica Yard with a vengenance. There were so many BO trains in the yard that the work trains could not get out on the mainline. The BMT sent over about 32 R-16's to run on the GG. There were only 20 R-38's on the property at the time due to a strike at St Louis Car nevertheless they were pressed into service;one on the E and one on the F. To cover for the R-16's AB's were pulled from the scrapline and sent back into service. It is unfortunate that when the R-27/30/30A arrived on the property the first thing the TA did was to eliminate all non-standard cars rather then shore up the service and catch up with maintenance. The Lo-V's could have run for several more years on the Culver and Franklin Shuttles and as there were still plenty on the IRT they would not have been a spare parts problem. Ditto for the 25 SIRT cars which where still serviceable if not compatible they could have been put on a rush hour only line like the #1Brighton-Nassau which only used about three trains or the #10 Myrtle-Chambers which required only six 6 car trains.While it is desirable to have a standard fleet the BMT managed very nicely for about forty years to get by with two very different fleet;ie AB's and D's among a few others. So did the IRT with the Hi-V's,Lo-V's,Flivvers and Steinways.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Does that mean that deferred maintenance was already being practiced in the 1960s? One other question: how long did those R-16s stay on the GG? Now that I think about it, I may have answered my own question: once all the R-38s were delivered, things returned to normal - sort of. Or am I wrong?
The R16 stayed around on the "EE" and "GG" well into 1976. I even saw some on the "N" in its early days to 71st-Continental.
Wayne
Wayne: The initial transfer of R-16's to the GG lasted form Sep 66-Feb 67 after which they returned to the BMT.With the openning of Chrystie St in Nov 67 they were assigned to the JJ/QB/QJ/RJ equiptment pool where they more of less remained until late 1969. In November of that year the first train was transferred to the GG followed shortly after by the three trains to the EE. Of course in the days after Chrystie St it was possible to see almost any piece of equiptment on any line. There were reports of the R-16's also on the B and RR either singly or mixed with other R-types.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As a matter of fact, there is a photo in the car section of an RR of R-16s with a few R-32s mixed in for good measure. I'm surprised the R-16s weren't coupled with R-27/30s, if for no other reason than because they bore a close resemblance when viewed from the side. I'm sticking by my guns on this one: I still get the impression that the R-10s and R-16s kept to themselves for the most part, and spent most of their lives running in solid trains. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Steve: The R-10's and R-16's usually did stay by themselves but here's an excerpt from the ERA NYD Bulletin of Oct 69. Sep 9/10 saw 2-R-11 in a train with R32 and R42 both on the AA and B. Sep 22 R10,32,42 in a train on the A. Also an R16 with 2 R-32 on the Franklin Shuttle. I was out of NY for most of the year hunting jackalopes in South Dakota but I did get home in October and saw two R-10's in a train of R-32's on the A. As I said before it was a very interesting year.
Larry,RedbirdR33
At last! An eyewitness!! You da mannnn! I would be very curious as to where the R-10s were located in that consist with the R-32s. If I had to guess, I would say on the ends of the train. What about the doors in such a mixed consist? Would you hear the same unlock-air release sound on the R-10s as you would in solid train as the doors were about to open (assuming the conductor's station was on the R-32s)?
The R-10s deserved to run in solid trains. They were in a league of their own.
Steve: You guessed it. They were on the end of the train but I'm afraid I don't recall what they sounded like. What was also outrageous at the time was R-12/14's running with the later R-Types on the IRT. Its funny have times have changed. Today we consider it scandalous if we hear of an R-32 running around with other then its lawful mate while in those days all sorts of characters ran around together without even a linking bar'''
Larry,RedbirdR33
I get the impression that, except for 3rd Ave. el service, the R-12s and R-14s never ran in solid trains again after they left the Flushing line. They stuck out like sore thumbs in a mixed consist, IMHO.
With all the mixing and matching going on back then, the only mixed trains I ever saw on the IND were D trains of R-32s coupled to R-42s. Almost without exception, the first two or four cars would be R-32s, with R-42s in the middle or making up the rest of the train. I wouldn't know about it until we'd get off the train at, say, 59th St. and I would watch it leave. Those mixed consists used to drive me nuts! I would always hope and pray it would be a solid train, but noooooooo!
As for mismatched R-32s today, I suppose you could say with the divorce rate where it is today and all, it's not surprising. Then again, if you were to use that as a barometer, you'd have many, many more odd couple R-32s that there actually are.
Since the R-10's like the 12's required the conductor to be in between cars, I always wondered why they ran them on the long C line until the end, instead of the shuttles (which generally used R-30's)
The (C) line does run completely underground. so the outside conductor's station would have been less of a problem on that route than on others. Additionally the parts stock for the cars was probably concentrated at Euclid and 207th due to their long association with the (A), so it was convenient to run them out of those shops until the bitter end.
A transfer to the (E) or (R), the other all underground lines, would have required a transfer to Jamaica, and the small fleet would have disappeared amid the R-32s and R-46s. It wouldn't make sense to put the cars back on the (A), which along with the (B), (D), (F), (G), (J), (L), (M), (N) and (Q) runs outdoors anyway.
I have been told this was the main reason the R-12s and R-14s were not run in solid trains, except for the ones which ran on the 3rd Ave. el, after they were transferred to the mainlines with the arrival of the R-36s. Apparently it was decided not to subject IRT conductors to the elements; toward that end, the R-12s and R-14s were never placed in the middle of the train, or more specifically, were never used as conductor's zone controls. IMNO, these cars could have run in solid trains on the 1, which is underground for most of its route, or a 7th Ave. local, had this route from 145th (later 148th) St. to South Ferry been retained after 1959-60.
The R-10s DID run on the E and F lines in 1980, when the truck cracking problem on the R-46s reached crisis proportions. Although they did end their careers on the C, it would have been nice to have had a train or two of R-10s on the A near the end, for old time's sake. Heck, they could still move.
But I said the shuttles. I had in mind the Franklin Shuttle and the 6th Av shuttle. (I'm sure the Rockaway shuttle did use them). The Franklin Shuttle was outdoors, but then so was the C in Queens, until '88 or later, when the R-10's were being retired anyway.
And I meant to add that that my point was not indoor/outdoor convenience, but that that was an awful long route to be climbing up inbetween cars all the way. That would have been more suitable for short shuttles.
On January 29,1999 I saw in mixed consist on the QJ, both R16 (fire engine red) and R27/30 (charcoal grey), at the Cypress-Hills station. I think it was 6 R27/30 and 4 R16.
Wayne
Hey Wayne,
I thought that all of the R16's were history. Are you saying that there are still 4 of them in service?
Karl B
I meant January 29, 1969. There ARE four R16 left, but not in service: 6305 (CI Yard), 6387 (NYCT Museum), 6398 (Kingston) and one in a schoolyard somewhere in Brooklyn, don't have the unit number handy, it is a 6400 series car.
Wayne
Thanks for the eyewitness account! Please forgive my nitpicking, but I think you meant to say four R-27/30s and four R-16s. Otherwise, you'd have a 10-car train, which wouldn't fit in an Eastern Division station. What was the number sequence of that consist?
BTW, have you seen the photo in the car section of an R-16 coupled to a slant R-40 in one of the yards?
You are correct - I have gotten out my old notebook, and the notebook lists only EIGHT. #8094-8095, 6432, 6318, 6366, 6452, 8134-8135.
I must have left my brains behind.
Here's a full-consist R16 "QJ" from the same date: 6369, 6495, 6396, 6306, 6428, 6436, 6438, 6492. They were also found on the "RR" back then.
Wayne
Ah, a sandwich train, so to speak. Did you ever spot any of the surviving R-16s back then? Or, for that matter, 6321, whose final, trouble-filled months were documented in a New York Times article back in December of 1986?
Also, can you recall if that solid R-16 train had both route and destination roller curtains up front, or just a black QJ in the destination slot? Some R-16 did have both curtains up front.
I had spotted all 199 R16s by mid-1974. (looking for Book #1...)
R16 was closed July 24, 1974, with #6494 marked as scrapped and #6304 wrecked as of May 20 1970.
The last series to be closed was R62, which closed Feb 27 1999 with the sighting of #1546.
I am outstanding on the following:
R28: 1 (7874)
R29: 2 (8636-7)
R33: 2 (8986-7)
R62A: 12 total
R68: 10 total (2 "D", 8 "N")
R68A: 8 total
R44: 2 bunches (8 total - 5218 bunch and 5312 bunch)
R46: 3 bunches (12 total-5486, 5874 and 5882 bunches)
Wayne
Wayne
Since you've seen every R-16, perhaps you could confirm something: if you've read New York City Subway Cars, you may have seen a photo of 6387 with a #15 sign along with a caption which proclaims this car spent its entire career on the Jamaica line. Is that where you saw 6387?
#6387 was spotted on theRR. According to the notebook it was April 11, 1969.
Wayne
Wayne: A little add-on to the previous post. When the R-16's were transfered to the GG in Nov 69 they sported those marvelous multi-colored role signs that included the orange JJ,green MM and blue E among others, even a dark blue TT. 168 St Jamaica was carried on both the upper and lower destination signs as it could be a northern destination for a QJ while being a southern one for a KK. aah yes, those were interesting days.
Larry,RedbirdR33
#6387 is sporting just such a side roll, set to A, of all things, while she sits sedately in the Transit Museum, her interior painted a delicate blue and her white ceiling peeling, as it has always done. I saw her there for the first time last year and I got goose bumps and the hair on the back of my neck stood up. I hadn't been aboard an R16 since 1979. It was quite a rush, since these cars are dear to me and hold many fond memories, esp. on the EE, GG, and QJ (then marked #15) lines.
Wayne
Don't forget: fifty R-16s spent time on the A line during the late 50s, so they weren't exactly strangers on that route. I wonder how they fared on the CPW express dash compared to those lovable, rip-roaring R-10s.
Speaking of the #15, one of my two R-16 rides was on such a train over the Williamsburg Bridge on Sept. 23, 1967. Seeing the 15 marking threw me for a real loop, as by that time I had gotten a feel for BMT route markings and wasn't expecting to see a number marking. There were some humorous moments for us on that day. That was our first day at Saturday school in Williamsburg (at Annunciation school), and we headed for Macy's and Woolworth's on 34th St. afterwards. We got off the 15 at Essex St., where I tried to be a cool 10-year-old and said out loud, "Open up in the name of the law!" just before the doors opened. My mother shook her head, and my sister just sighed. A D train of R-1/9s took us to 34th; I was bummed it didn't skip any stops (the 6th Ave. express tracks hadn't opened yet). On the way back to Port Authority, we took a D down to W. 4th St., where confusion set in. We didn't know about the two levels at that station, and wound up on the uptown platform of the lower level. There we waited for an A train while one D after another pulled in. I didn't mind; I was mesmerized by the R-1/9s. Finally, my mother asked someone about the A train, and we were directed upstairs to the upper level. A moment later, an A train of R-10s pulled in, and as it did, I yelled, "Let's hear it for the A train!" More sighing and head shaking. My sister may have even told me to shut up. It turned out to be a prophetic statement; that's how I would feel whenever I would see an A train anywhere. As we crawled past 23rd St., I made a mental note: hey, this train isn't stopping here. No more E trains for me! We had taken an E that morning from 42nd St. to 14th St.
And, speaking of 168th St., the R-7s and R-9s which wound up on the Eastern Division and the KK had those signs on their upper roller curtains, and 57th St. on their lower curtains (but not the uppers).
#6387 is sporting just such a side roll, set to A, of all things, while she sits sedately in the Transit Museum, her interior painted a delicate blue and her white ceiling peeling, as it has always done. I saw her there for the first time last year and I got goose bumps and the hair on the back of my neck stood up. I hadn't been aboard an R16 since 1979. It was quite a rush, since these cars are dear to me and hold many fond memories, esp. on the EE, GG, and QJ (then marked #15) lines.
Wayne
Don't forget: fifty R-16s spent time on the A line during the late 50s, so they weren't exactly strangers on that route. I wonder how they fared on the CPW express dash compared to those lovable, rip-roaring R-10s.
Speaking of the #15, one of my two R-16 rides was on such a train over the Williamsburg Bridge on Sept. 23, 1967. Seeing the 15 marking threw me for a real loop, as by that time I had gotten a feel for BMT route markings and wasn't expecting to see a number marking. There were some humorous moments for us on that day. That was our first day at Saturday school in Williamsburg (at Annunciation school), and we headed for Macy's and Woolworth's on 34th St. afterwards. We got off the 15 at Essex St., where I tried to be a cool 10-year-old and said out loud, "Open up in the name of the law!" just before the doors opened. My mother shook her head, and my sister just sighed. A D train of R-1/9s took us to 34th; I was bummed it didn't skip any stops (the 6th Ave. express tracks hadn't opened yet). On the way back to Port Authority, we took a D down to W. 4th St., where confusion set in. We didn't know about the two levels at that station, and wound up on the uptown platform of the lower level. There we waited for an A train while one D after another pulled in. I didn't mind; I was mesmerized by the R-1/9s. Finally, my mother asked someone about the A train, and we were directed upstairs to the upper level. A moment later, an A train of R-10s pulled in, and as it did, I yelled, "Let's hear it for the A train!" More sighing and head shaking. My sister may have even told me to shut up. It turned out to be a prophetic statement; that's how I would feel whenever I would see an A train anywhere. As we crawled past 23rd St., I made a mental note: hey, this train isn't stopping here. No more E trains for me! We had taken an E that morning from 42nd St. to 14th St.
And, speaking of 168th St., the R-7s and R-9s which wound up on the Eastern Division and the KK had those signs on their upper roller curtains, and 57th St. on their lower curtains (but not the uppers).
Steve: The R-16's started service on the GG on Sept 12,1966. During Feb of 1967 they were returned to the BMT. About the deferred maintenance it seems that during the 1950's monies intended for capital improvements were diverted to meet current operating expenses in order to maintain the 15 cent fare. By the late 1960's this was starting to cause some problems and of course during the 70's the system very nearly collasped.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Of course, during the 70s, the city went bankrupt.
Steve,
That was me that submitted that info on the ABs being pulled from the scrapline. When I stated the R9s, I meant it as a generic class. Actually it was the early Rs that were failing at such an alarming rate. This info I received from Don Harold recently.
Did you also get the info on that picture of the 2 car AB set southbound in to W. 8th ST? I would never have guessed that myself, although I should have known better since I remember being in my Grandfather's firehouse near Stillwell Terminal and watching a West End train of ABs pulling in and hooking up to 2 ABs sitting at the bumper block, then going into service as a northbound.
I was a Southern Division boy, having great memories of the ABs on the West End, and watching from Brighton Baths the D-types pulling into the express tracks of the Brighton Line.
Her's an interesting fact I remember: When the R27/30s first came into service, during the week the West End still had all ABs, but on the weekends the ABs would disappear and service would be provided by all R27/30s. When I asked Don about this he told me on the weekends the available number of R27/30s were sufficient to provide all service on the Southern lines, but come the weekdays the R27/30s would go back to the 4th ave and Brighton locals and ABs and D-types would return to service!
Have you heard about the plans for the Coney Island Terminal? Work should start next year and take at least six. I've seen proposed plans; let's say it should look somewhat like the late great Park Row Terminal!
Hope to hear from everyone.
By the way, if you thought the ABs looked terrible on the Canarsie line for the last 2 years, they looked worse to me cut up on flatbed trucks heading down Cropsey Ave! Being such a young boy (I was born in 1956)it sure hurt to see both the ABs and D-types being scrapped.
Remember, for a Southern Division boy when you mention the ABs you have to mention the D-types and vice-versa. Although the D-types rarely if ever ran on the Eastern lines on the Southern ones they went together like Peanut butter and jelly.
Mike H
How about that - I was born in '56, too. As I understand, the Triplexes weren't used on the Eastern Division because of weight restrictions on certain elevated stretches. Specifically, the portion over Fulton St where J and Z trains run today could not support their weight. I presume that would be a reference to axle weight vs. gross weight. The axle weight of a Triplex was much greater than that of a BMT standard, while one Triplex unit outweighed two standards by perhaps 6 or 7 tons.
Is it true that the Triplexes didn't begin to appear on the West End until the R-32s began to arrive? That's where they made their final curtain calls - much too soon, IMHO. I can't help but think, if only I had known about this back in July of 1965. We left for home on the very same day they made their last runs, the 23rd, and I didn't get to see them.
Steve,
The D-types and ABs were switched from the Sea Beach to the West End and vice-versa, I do not know why. I think it was the middle of 1964 when the switch occurred, that might or might not have coincided with the arrival of the R-32s.
One of the more interesting locations for spooting the ABs and D-types during the early 1960s was either seeing both of them laid up in the small el yard between Ocean Pkwy and Brighton Beach, or better yet, standing in the street in front of the Brighton Baths and watching the comings and goings. I always remember hearing the high pitched whistles of the southbound ABs and D-types as they alerted the tower that they were awaiting an open track (express)in the station.
The one line that I regret never riding was the Myrtle Ave El. My only memeories of it was coming off the Manhattan Bridge by auto and going under it while a 3 car train passed overhead. Also seeing from the BQE the demolition, and once being on Jay AStreet and seeing the terminal.
How about that Culver shuttle? Ever stand at Fort Hamilton Pkwy and feel the sway of the whole el caused by the shuttle train stopping at the other station? What a weird feeling being on the lower level of the 9th ave. station.
Don't feel bad - I never rode on the Myrtle Ave. el, either. I do remember seeing a train of Qs at the Broadway station while riding on a QJ train in 1969 before the el closed.
I never rode on the Culver Shuttle, either.
I have seen photos from 1964-65 of Triplex trains carrying #3 signs, one of which is in the subwar car photo section of this website. Since the West End Express had been reduced to essentially a rush hour and Saturday service by the 1960s, they may have adopted the policy of using the older equipment only during rush hours.
While I consider myself an IND fan, the BMT Southern Division has always intrigued me as well. It's too bad we can't resurrect some of the engineers who designed the BMT standards and Triplexes. They did a super job!
Steve,
Actually the older equipment was used on some of the Southern Division lines such as the West End to provide all service Monday thru Friday all hours. However on the weekends the reduced car requirements enabled the TA to have the newer equipment provide all service on the Southern Division. This is why I would always watch and ride the ABs and D-types onthe West End and Brighton lines during the week, and lo and behold, come the weekend, voila: all R-27/30s!
Those ABs rode beautifully and had a layout inside that maximized space and made you feel you were in a standard (no pun intended)railroad car.
Interesting, but I always wondered why the ABs ran on the locals and the D-types on the expresses generally. I was told by Don Harold that originally the D-types did provide service on the 4th ave and Brighton locals, but that the pickup on the ABs was better than the D-types and was more suited for the frequent stops and starts of the locals. In addition the top speed of the D-types was close to 60 mph,while the ABs was much less, so it was obvious which car was better suited for the express runs.
Did you ever hear the high pitched whistles of the ABs and D-types? Talk about a distinctive sound, how I miss it, along with the bull and pinion growl and the brakes!
Oh well, one more important question: Do you or anyone know of anyone that has visited or have current pictures of the Sedgwick and Anbderson Ave stations of the defunct Polo Grounds shuttle? (ie; 9th ave el)I hear that the platforms of the SEdgwick ave station still exist and aare located under the Major Deegan near 161 st. If so I would love to see pictures of it. Plus I heard that some brave railfans have walked the short tunnel under the hill between the 2 stations.
Mike H
Hi, Mike,
No, I never heard any horn blasts from the BMT standards, but would imagine they sounded similar to those on the R-1/9s.
I heard about the R-27/30s providing all weekend Southern Division service in the early 60s. It may have had more to do with longer headways, rather than fewer routes operating. Except for the QT Brighton local via tunnel and possibly the Q, the other routes operated on Saturdays, including the QB, and on Sundays the T didn't operate.
You're right about those old BMT cars - they could swallow large numbers of passengers, especially the Triplexes. And, yes, the seating arrangement on the BMT standards did give the impression of being in a standard railroad car. I understand there was quite an uproar when the R-32s arrived, because they didn't have anywhere near as many seats, not to mention the fact that they didn't have the old Southern Division titles on their roll signs the way the R-27s and R-30s did. Speaking of which, do you remember the "Know Trains at a Glance" placards which adorned Southern Division station platforms up until the Chrystie St. connection opened? I remember seeing one of those at either 34th St. or DeKalb Ave. They provided a cross reference between the new letter markings and the old route titles. Shore Line has one of these placards in their maintenance barn.
While it's true the BMT standards weren't speed demons, they still reached a respectable top speed, especially in the 14th St. tunnel. Their acceleration was pretty good, I thought. One of the Transit Museum members was heard telling a group of school kids that the Triplexes were capable of doing 65 mph. I was a witness. He also said #6095 was retired in 1963, which may be stretching things.
And, no, I never have explored the old ROW of the Polo Grounds shuttle.
Steve,
Was over at Don Harold's last week with a couple of friends, so here goes some interesting tidbits:
When the idea was floated for starting a museum fleet, the ABs were already half gone and Don wanted an unrebuilt set with the original interior to be saved. A search of the remaining AB sets revealed that only 2390-91-92 were unrebuilt and still contained the original interior. He had just missed saving other sets that were in better condition than this one but "c'est la vie" Don said that this set was not the best running and had given problems in the past.
As for the second set 2774-2899-2775, they were scheduled to go into the Coney Island shops for restoration but a motorman unfamiliar with the old braking system (non-smee)had been ordered to do a yard move on 2390-91-92 and had smashed them into the bumping block near 86th street on the Sea Beach Line, causing serious damage to the front of one of the ABs. This necessitated delaying putting the deck roof set into the shops, while 2390-91-92 were repaired.
Well, by the time they were repaired other priority work further delayed the deck roofs going in. Delay after delay finally found a new management team in the TA who were scrap-happy. Frantic negotiations by the railfan employees in the TA with various museums and with the TA itself resulted in only one deck roof AB being saved by Branford. Other cars scrapped also included a set of Qs, and various LO-Vs and R9s that were designated as museum cars awaiting restoration. What a waste, as if these few cars that contained historical value were taking up so much space.
I vaguely remember the old "Know your trains at a glance" but I do remember and am proud to possess 2 old Ta maps showing pictures of the R-32-38-36 in color! They sure don't make 'em like they used to!
I wonder if anyone out there has explored the old Polo Grounds shuttle stations and tunnel, I HAVE heard of some that have done this although I can not attach names to them. Deeply fascinated by abandoned lines and this one intrigues me greatly for apparently there are still platforms, stairs, tiles spelling out the stations still intact. I'm hoping someone out here in Subtalk reads this and can supply me with answers and maybe photos.
FYI: get your pictures of the Stillwell Ave terminal, and the Canarsie structure between Eastern Pkwy and Sutter Ave, major rebuilding and demolition coming!
Good talking, I'll be on normally in the late evenings.
BTW, do you also model the system? I have an extensive collection amassed luckily before I got married!
While I'm into American Flyer S gauge, I don't have an operating layout. If I want to run a train, I'll throw some track together, run the train or two, and put everything away. I do have a layout in mind: a four-track mainline which would be a hybrid New Haven mainline/New York subway arrangement. Part open cut, part subway, part embankment, possibly with overhead catenary. I'm even toying with the idea of putting I-beams between the tracks in the subway section, spaced 15/16" apart. In 3/16" scale, this works out to 5 feet. If I had unlimited space, I'd have diverging routes a la the IND, but this probably won't happen. All I would need now would be some subway cars in S gauge, preferably R-1/9s or R-10s. I already have a sizable New Haven fleet of diesel and steam engines and passenger cars.
Steve,
RedbirdR33 got back to me with some info on the Polo Grounds shuttle.
I collect in HO scale and was lucky to acquire most of the brass cars when they first came out. My favorites still are the ABs and D-types. While they look and run great I wish they had "Protosounds" like those MTH O gauge cars, boy would those bull and pinion gears and brake noises sound great.
Anybody out there that can give me any info on the Polo Grounds shuttle and what still exists? Has anyone been in the tunnel recently? How do you get under the Deegan to see the Sedgwick Ave platforms? How about how to get up on the Anderson Ave station embankment?
Help!
Mike H
Mike: I last visted the Polo Grounds Shuttle about ten years ago and a portion of the Jerome-Anderson Avs Station on an enbankment was still intact as was the bricked up doorway leading from Anderson Av down to the platform. The Sedgewick Av platform was largely intact right up to the portal underneath the Maj Deegan Expressway. The portals at both ends are bricked shut but I'm sure there is some kind of access. I'd like to vist the site again probably within the next two weeks. Its a good idea to go during the daytime when the kids are in school. One of are sub-talkers did go there very recently but I'll don't recall who it was.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey RedbirdR33,
Great to hear about the shuttle. Like I said previously, I'm very interested in remnants of abandoned lines.
I was up in the Bronx the other day at Yankee Stadium and took a walk over to River ave where the old shuttle branches off. Looking down the block to Jerome I can see where the platforms would be up on the embankment leading into the tunnel. Is there platforms still extant on that outer portion on the embankment? I have heard that inside the tunnel the platforms for both stations still exist. Is this true?
Concerning the Sedgwick station; I once parked my car up on the hill at the end of 161 street and walked along the footbridge described by Brennan at his website. I went as far onthe footbridge as I could since the westernmost portion was closed. It was nighttime and hard to see, but I'm not sure if you could see any of the platforms from that vantage point. What is the best vantage point to see these remnants? Also, is there a way to actually get down to these platforms under the Deegan?
I'm not sure but I believe from a good source that there is a way to get into the tunnel. Heard that the platforms and much stuff is still there, although signs and the like, of course have been removed by earlier railfans.
Do you know anyone that heas been in there? This has got to be one of the more interesting remnants, since it in theory is an abandoned tunnel with 2 stations partially intact!
Wonder if years from now some railfan will an historical discovery of this, same as the guy who found the LIRR Atlantic Ave tunnel?
Mike H
Mike: The Sedgewick Av platforms are intact. To reach them I walked over the footbridge as far as I could go and climbed down a fence. I recall that they are directly under the Major D and ended at the closed off tunnel portals. You could also reach them by going up north to what was the old Highbridge Station and walking along the old Putnam Division right-of-way to the station. Jerome-Anderson Station had two entrances. One was a staircase leading up from Jerome Av into the single island platform. If you climb the embankment you can see the platform as only a steel fence separates it. From the Anderson Av side there was a staircase in a building leading down to the platform and the entrance for this was still visible ten years ago.
I am surprised that so little info is available about this tunnel and the two stations as it is the last intact line of the IRT els. Part of the reason may be that for many years this section of the Bronx was not a healthy neighborhood to vist. My excursion occurred while I was on a break from jury duty at the Bronx Supreme Court. I must admit I'm curious to see what it looks like now. Maybe I'll even get some pictures.
Will keep in touch,Larry,RedbirdR33
If they are going to demolish the eastern platforms at A.A. on the "L", who do I contact to get dibs on some of those cast-iron platform lamps? I want two (one for indoor the other for outdoor) and my Father wants one for his back yard too. Those that are intact should also be swapped over to the southbound platform so that it's uniform.
Does anyone know if they're going to alter the mezzanine area at A.A.?
Wayne
I have an HO scale subway layout in my family room that has a mixed fleet of R9s, AB Standards, BART & WMATA cars, and one 3 car set of WMATA painted MTA silver and blue. Am awaiting a set of R-32s from MTS Imports. The subway has some open cut and subway running, tunnels lit, walls grafittied (that was the family's contribution), workmen performing track work. Tunnels have those "escape areas" spaced every few feet apart (amazing what preforated cardboard can be used for :). Major station is Stillwell Terminal, or what I think Stillwell Ave would look like if it were partially underground and partially subway. Tiled walls. Station entrance from a token booth (in progress) with stairs leading down into the station. Other station entrances give the appearance of descending stairs. Fairly large city scene above the subway, ala a shopping area along Ave J or Ave M in Brooklyn. Skyscrapers in the background (N scale Atlas "glass" towers). Working streetlights. One table completely unfinished, awaiting future construction and a bond issue" :)
I expect to videotape it and show it to any interested persons at the East Penn show at the end of the month. I brought photos in the past, this time it'll be that and a video. (Is D-Train watching?)
--Mark
Mark,
Send Pat Villani some photos of your layout that he can post on the "Modeling The New York Subway" web site at www.monmouth.com/~patv.
I'm tired of looking at just the photos of Joe Frank's and my stuff there!
Frank Gatazka
Will do!
--Mark
The Sedgwick Ave. platforms couldn't possibly be under the Major Deegan. Rather, they are on a cliff or bluff which is above the Major Deegan and overlooks it. The only thing that might be under the Deegan would be the remains of the old "Put" (Putnam line) station, but more likely no remains of it exist at all.
BTW, Sedgwick Avenue in that area is today simply the service road of the Deegan.
Dan,
I,ve been looking at the photos of the shuttle in the book "new York Transi Memories" of the shuttle and it appears to have gone UNDER the Deegan. If you look from the Manhattan side of the Harlem River the Deegsn is on a viaduct in that area.
Also according to a gentleman named Brennan who has a website dealing with abandoned els and subway lines, he too states that the remnant is under the Deegan. I know it sounds crazy having an el line run through a hill and then exit under a highway to enter a bridge over a river!
I believe REdbirdR33 might be able to clarify this further since he stated he actually has visited the sites in question. Also I believe a TA employee named Glen Smith has also expored the line.
Anyone else who could comment?
Much appreciated Dan with your comments, Thank You.
Mike H
I have seen Brennan's website and I've been to the physical site in question. There is a stone wall on the east side of Sedwick Ave., and the remains of the station are supposed to be up there, although I haven't been able to spot them. The Deegan is at ground level there, with the exit ramps to the Stadium, a relatively recent addition, actually built over the water of the Harlem River (and so, technically, in Manhattan). The Deegan goes onto an elevated viaduct a bit south of there, when it passes over the Bronx Terminal Market. When the el existed, it definitely passed over the Deegan, not under it. I think the Deegan was open to traffic for a year or two before the el closed, but I'm not certain of the exact dates. Somewhere around 1959.
Dan: The el platforms were on the same level as the Putnam platforms for the reason that they used the NY & NRR Bridge to cross the Harlem River. The old Putnam rose to a higher level than the Hudson Line and then turned west and crossed over it to reach the 9 Av El station at 155 St and 8 Av which was jointly used by the Putnam Division and the 9 Av El up until 1916 when the NYC built the Sedgewick Av Terminal for the Put and cut back service to that location. The bridge was transferred to the IRT and the new line was cut east through the tunnel to Jerome Av. The entrance to the combined NYC-IRT Station at Sedgewick Av was at street level but then you walked down stair to reach the platforms. Major D was a latecomer to the area and was built over the Put. When I first went there I thought as you did and spent much time examining the building above the Deegan for signs of the el line. Finally I crossed over the Deegan and walked underneath it to reach the platforms.
There are some excellent photos of this station in a book called "The Putnam Division" by Daniel R Gallo and Frederick A Kramer published by Quadrant Press in 1981. The ERA's Tracks of New York No 3
Manhattan and Bronx Elevated Railroad also has some very good pictures of the line which clearly shown the station layout and tunnel portals at Sedgewick Av
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
Dan,
I,ve been looking at the photos of the shuttle in the book "New York Transit Memories" of the shuttle and it appears to have gone UNDER the Deegan. If you look from the Manhattan side of the Harlem River the Deegan is on a viaduct in that area.
Also according to a gentleman named Brennan who has a website dealing with abandoned els and subway lines, he too states that the remnant is under the Deegan. I know it sounds crazy having an el line run through a hill and then exit under a highway to enter a bridge over a river!
I believe REdbirdR33 might be able to clarify this further since he stated he actually has visited the sites in question. Also I believe a TA employee named Glen Smith has also explored the line.
Anyone else who could comment?
Much appreciated Dan with your comments, Thank You.
Mike H
I remember seeing a pile of AB half-shells stacked up like cordwood along the McDonald Avenue fence back in August of 1969.
Some years later (1976 I think) I saw R6s, R7s and R9s in the same place.
Wayne
I don't think 8 car sets of AB's ever ran on the Culver Line. My memory is that only 6 cars could fit into most of the stations along McDonald Avenue. Those station platforms were not extended until the Culver was hooked up with the IND at Ditmas Avenue, at which time 10-car R-1-9's began running on the then new IND-Culver. I remember that pre-IND the Culver generally ran with 3 car sets in non-rush hours and 6 car sets in the rush hours.
I have to agree for the most part with Sid from NJ on pre-IND Culver train lengths. When runing ABs, there were six cars in rush hours and three at other times. (The six-car was also true of the Brighton and Fourth Avenue Specials.) When the SIRT cars were put into service, rush-hour Culvers had only five cars, but I don't recall if they took two cars off for the rest of the time.
I'm pretty sure that all the platforms on the Culver could handle eight ABs, though.
What I can't remember now is the length of the rush-hour BU trains from 9th Avenue to Coney Island during the 1940s and early 1950s. (And I've forgotten the length of the C-car West End shuttles from the same period.)
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
I went to elementary school a block from the Culver line, when the station platforms were being lengthened, so I have a pretty good memory of what was going on. At least at the Avenue P Station, the original length easily held 6 AB's, but could not hold 8 R-1's. That would put the length between 402 and about 450 feet, quite short of the 536 feet needed for 8 AB's. The platforms were lenghthened about the equivalent of 2-1/2 R-1's, or about 150 feet, so the platform could then handle 10 R-1's, or about 600 feet.
I have very fond memories of those cars as well. I still remember them when they ran on their home IND turf. They did have distinctive air brake sounds, plus the throbbing compressors, and best of all, the moaning, groaning, and resounding singing of their spur-cut bull and pinion gears as they gathered speed. Let's not forget the external door controls, with the conductor perched on the step plates between two cars in the middle of the train working the trigger boxes. And, if the first car was an R-1 or R-4 with no headlights, you were treated to tunnel lights providing the only illumination. On a hot summer day, the ceiling fans would be whirling away.
The irony is the fact that I rode those cars more times on the Canarsie (LL back then) than on the IND lines. I don't think I rode the R-1/9s more than a dozen times on any given IND route - mainly because most of my IND rides in the late 60s were on A trains of R-10s, with D trains of R-32s coming in second. In fact, I can enumerate each IND route and the number of times I rode R-1/9s on it, give or take one or two: A, 4; AA, 9; B, none; BB, none; CC, 3; D, 10; E, 6; F, 1; GG, 3; HH, none.
Yes, they were great cars.
Here, let me compare notes:
Note: This only includes the period between August 8, 1964 and the final withdrawal of the fleet.
(Serious subway riding began on August 3, 1968 and has continued since)
A - 1; AA - 1; B - 4; CC - 20; D - 17; E - 72; EE - 12; F - 146; GG - 22; HH - 4; KK - 8; LL - 48; M - 27; QB - 1; QJ - 20
Good thing I kept all my old notebooks!
Wayne
Lately I've noticed a definite sway on the trains about a third of the way across from Brooklyn on the bridge. Is this something someone should worry about? I would hate to see a girder slip (as happened on the other side) and have them close the bridge indefinitely. They've only been working on it for 15+? years now.
It looks like they'll wait for a full failure before anything is done, such as a connection to the F tunnel, which would also take years. Given the new status of the neighborhood (artist lofts, waterfront apts, etc...) this would run through, you can expect a lot on Nimbyism on any proposal to do that. They should have done it when it was just some vacant factories/warehouses.
Damn straight. Although the you can counter NIMBYISM with NIMBYISM by saying that if the connection is made, you won't have to have trains going over the bridge (and the attendent noise) except during rush hours.
Suspension bridges (and all bridges in general) have some flexibility built in. If not, they'd twist and self-destruct. Suspension structures, like the Manhattan, are particularly prone to sway and it can be very noticable on them. This might be what you're feeling.
I'm told that the Manhattan Bridge twists a total of 8' when a train is crossing it. They are also designed to sway with load and wind. You'll notice this if you walk across the Brooklyn Bridge. It's particularly noticable on the V-Z, and let me tell you, it's no fun!
-Hank
[I'm told that the Manhattan Bridge twists a total of 8' when a train is crossing it. They are also designed to sway with load and wind. You'll notice this if you walk across the Brooklyn Bridge. It's particularly noticable on the V-Z, and let me tell you, it's no fun!]
_Supposedly_, the designers of the Verrazano omitted a walkway because they were afraid that pedestrians would become too frightened at the bridge's (normal) sway.
Sway or not, what a spectacular walk that would be ... though not in winter :-)
Remember before the one way toll on the VZ, you could sit in the car and bounce as well as sway.
The Washington bridge does this a lot more (well it is smaller).
I heard that story about an 8' sway on the Manhattan Bridge back in the 1950s--it's one of those tales that "urban legends" arise from. There must be some sway, but with a capacity of 16 trains at one time, the bridge would be swaying 128', which seems a bit exaggerated--that's almost the length of two BMT Standards (please don't add every other car series' equivalents--8-) ). Even if some swaying canceled other swaying, the figure still seems unlikely.
When the V-N Bridge opened, the semi-official line was that they didn't want to have a facility which would almost invite people to use it to commit suicide. The day the Bridge opened, Robert Moses was asked about it and he said that it might be considered; he was then asked about a bicycle path, to which he responded that that was "stupid." The real reason there's no pedestrian path (or rails, for that matter) is the same reason there's no subway to JFK or LGA--Robert Moses didn't want it.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Not sway, twist. Vertical motion, not horrizontal. And of course, the sway and twist are limited by the cables and expansion joints, so 128' with 16 trains is fantasy.
-Hank
I agree that "128' with 16 trains is fantasy" (as I thought I suggested in my earlier post), but isn't 8' with one train also fantasy? If the Bridge moves 8' in some direction when one train crosses, wouldn't it also move 8' in some direction for each additional train on the structure at the same time? (Four trains on each of the four tracks would mean 16 trains on the Bridge at the same time--usage got close to that in part of the rush hour as late as the 1950s.)
What exactly does the 8' "sway" or "twist" or "vertical motion" mean? And if there's a limit because of the cables and expansion joints, wouldn't the Bridge turn into another Galloping Gertie (I think I've got the name right) when the limits are reached and there's no more flexibility left?
I'm questioning the 8' figure--it's been around for years and I've always wondered about how accurate it could be.
Maybe I'm missing something in all this--I've spent a good part of my life as a medievalist and we didn't have the zero back then, so some of the math and physics and engineering gets beyond me.
Ed Alfonsin
The response of the cables, etc., is probably not linear, so doubling the load would probably not double the stretch in the cables.
I do not think there is any slack in the cables - they are always under tension. But the system is designed to have give. In fact, all structures have movement. I remember reading how much the world trade center sways in the wind - at the top, it is several feet.
Not that the 8' figure is necessarily accurate. You should be able to see such a large amount of movement standing on the shore, watching a train cross.
A talk with the supplier of the information I posted clears things up slightly. The TOTAL twist is 8'-4' up, or 4' down, from neutral. (the visual demonstration included some napkins, an accounting text, and a protractor, don't ask...)
Not being an enginner, and not knowing how to ask the question of the one I was in the presence of, I don't know the exact details of the shifting. The theory is, trains on opposite sides of the bridge simultaneously balances the twist, but is actually worse structurally. At my suggestion that the Manhattan is physically 2 bridges with a three-lane roadway binding them together, he laughed. That was the end of the conversation.
-Hank
As noted in my previous post, all suspension bridges (and all structures, for that matter) are built with some degree of flexibility, both horizontally and vertically. The 8' sounds high but could be correct for horizontal (it would be tough to do vertically). It's my understanding that the main reason for the Manhattan's problems is the twisting from trains crossing on each side over time. Maybe the 8' has been violated so much that the bridge can't take it any more. Also, the cables are probably in need of replacement from the constant stretching.
Yes, from what I understand, the "torsion" you describe was "discovered" by a newspaper photographer many years ago (the '50s?) while trying to photograph downtown Manhattan. He focused on a building, I think, and when he developed the picture noticed that he got something else entirely! He went back to try again but paid attention to the viewfinder as the trains passed, and voila - the torsion problem made news.
--Mark
Sorry--fingers slipped in my Manhattan Bridge comment and I used too many 'it' forms. I mean to write, 'When Robert Moses was asked about a pedestrian walk, he said it could be considered.'
Ed Alfonsin
How are SIRT cars transported to Coney Island and why aren't there any yards there? Is it ot keep them from being totally isolated from the rest of the system?
And how similar are the SIRT cars to the R-44's?
[How are SIRT cars transported to Coney Island and why aren't there any yards there? Is it to keep them from being totally isolated from the rest of the system?]
SIRT has a maintenance facility near the Clifton station. As far as I know, it can handle most required service so the cars normally don't have to go to the Coney Island Yard. If any cars did require the sort of extensive work that could be performed only at C.I., presumably they'd be transferred there by flatbed truck. I don't know if this has ever happened in the years since the current rolling stock was delivered.
The cars were overhauled at CI Yards, they never go there for any normal maintenance.
I believe the SIRT cars were actually part of the original R-44 order, so I suspect they are quite similar. I haven't rode SIRT at all, so I can't confirm from personal observation.
The SIRT cars are R-44's. The original order included 300 cars for the NYCTA and 52 cars for SIRTOA. After GOH 12 of the NYCTA R-44's(388-399) were sent to Staten Island thereby making the SIRT fleet 64 cars. According to Gene Sansone these are the differences; SIRT cars are all GE while the mainline is all WH, no side roll signs on the SIRT cars,FRA grab irons on the windows and all SIRT cars remain as single units with couplers at both ends although the B cars cannot run by themselves.
Larry,RedbirdR33
SIRT cars are moved to/from the CI shops, if neccesary (usually it isn't) by truck. They were delivered by railbarge in 1972, but those facilities no longer exist. All maintainence on rolling stock, except for overhaul, can be done at the Clifton Base Shop. Non-revenue MOW equipment is repaired at the Tompkinsville shop. AFAIK, the last car to go to CI (and return) was R44 435 in 1992, which needed heavy repairs after a heater coil shorted and started a fire. When delivered, all SIRT cars had grab irons at every door, as required by the FRA, as the SIR was, until 1987, a common carrier. These were removed during overhaul. The only remaining differences with the SIR cars is the lack of side destination signs, and none of the cars are permanently linked. The cars are being fitted with sill heaters, to rectify a problem with the doors freezing shut in winter.
-Hank
AFAIK, the last car to go to CI (and return) was R44 435 in 1992, which needed heavy repairs after a heater coil shorted and started a fire.
Aha! That explains why 435 is in such horrible shape. I was in Clifton shop this past Saturday and saw 435 sitting on freight trucks w/o third rail shoes. Inside, it looked all torn up with all sorts of doors open and wires & insulation showing, and it looks like it is being cannibalized for parts (as well as being used for parts storage). It doesn't look like it went through GOH; I couldn't check the builder's plate though to be sure. When I asked about it, I was simply told that "there's a long story about her" but never got into it. I wouldn't expect to see 435 on the road anymore.
Another difference between SIRT R44s and NYC Transit's - the SIRT R-44s seem to accelerate much swifter that NYC Transit's and it seemed almost effortless to get to 40mph.
--Mark
How'd you get into the shop?
My understanding was that 435 had been returned to CI for repairs after the fire. The car WAS overhauled. Unlike the other TA R44 Overhauls, they removed the side paint, rather than cover it up. The fire in 435 led to a modification of all the floor heaters on the entire fleet.
And hey, lemme know when you're around my haunts...
-Hank
How'd you get into the shop?
Transit Museum tour of SIRT this past Saturday included a round trip to Tottenville (I got to ride in the cab for most of the way) as well as a stop at Clifton shop. They showed us some of the diesels and explained their workings.
Quite an enjoyable tour, I must say.
And hey, lemme know when you're around my haunts...
Will do :)
--Mark
To add to the above, SIR cars don't have trip valves for the subway signal system.
They can also go backwards without changing ends, a lot of switches at non job start points face backwards.
Normal subway operation does not allow a backwards move, I think somthing to do with the operator key.
They only reverse without changing ends if they blow a station, or are switching at St. George. If work requires them to change tracks, until recently, they had a switching crew take control at the rear of the train and make the crossover. New switches installed in the last 2 years no longer require reverse moves on the road, except for the St. George bound AM trains that originate at Great Kills or Huguenot.
-Hank
But Hank, if they blow a station stop, they CAN go backwards. Subway you CAN'T without switching ends. Late night SIR does blow the stop marks. Guy wakes up too late if you ask me...
That's an NYCT operating rule. (Rule #39,1992 Book of Rules) NYCT equipment is capable of operation in reverse. It's necessary for uncoupling and (I think) certain yard moves.
Yeah. I remeber once, I was on a rush hour train with my favorite car in the lead, (444) just before they finished the platform extensions. This was early 1990, while the cars were going through overhaul. We were going at a really good clip coming down the hill into my station (Annadale) when we didn't slow down. Next I heard what I later discovered was the sound of air being dumped. Train stopped about 1/3 of the way down the closed end of the platform, and 444 was spitting smoke. The rear axle on both trucks was still spinning, the brake shoes were smoking, and the rail was being ground down. Engineer finally flipped some circuit breaker in the cab, and the axles finally stopped. Turned it back on, no problem. Train was stuck for 10 mins with this problem. When it left the station, finally, there were 4 very nice divits in the rail, which were later ground out by a work crew. If the light is right, you canstill see the spots...
-Hank
A couple of Amtrak questions,
A. How many tracks does Amtrak use crossing under the East River thorugh to Sunnyside?
B. How many Amtrak trains can use the Sunnyside Yard as opposed to LIRR trains?
C. When was the Hell Gate Bridge built?
A) 4 two are used mostly by the LIRR, a third is split between the two, and a fourth is mostly amtrak.
b) A lot. LIRR doesn't use sunnyside
c) Long ago, 1917 I think.
The back end or north side of Sunnyside is used for LIRR Frieght, or the new Railroad that took over LIRR Frieght operations. Towards the east river tubes on the north side is the Frieght yard offices, this is where the Circus Train is soon to be parked (you can see the cars from the 7 line as it climbs out of the tunnel to the elevated) and the Elephants walked through the Queens Mid-Town tunnel.
LIRR now with the West Side yards does not use SunnySide, exception at HAROLD Tower there are two engines parked during rushhour, incase of a stuck train in the east river tunnels. But the tower is outside or the yard and in the middle of the rightof way
There is also a loop around the yard (and through the yard) that turns Amtrak and if non MU'd NJT Trains. (A Balloon Track)
> There is also a loop around the yard (and through the yard)
> that turns Amtrak
Speaking of which, how are Amtrak trains turned at stub end terminals like Washington or Boston? They are always "pointed the right way".
-Dave
In Boston, complete AMTRAK trains are not turned at South Station.
The train enters the station, engine(s) leading. Then the engine(s) are uncoupled, and a switcher pulls the coaches off into the yard or onto a siding. The engine(s) are run out and around, and recoupled on the southbound end for the return trip.
The engines can be looped within the South Station yard area to be "pointed" the right way if necessary.
Interestingly when my son took AmTrak to Spring Break the train had baggage cars at both ends. I don't know what that means, just thought I'ld put in my 2 cents
Mr t__:^)
I'd be willing to bet that the cars at the end of the train were mail cars -- not baggage cars.
If the cars looked like freight train box cars, they were mail cars.
At Washington Union Station only the outside lower (to the left facing the station) tracks run through going to points South. They also have low level platforms (or used to). All other tracks are stub.
Trains pull in engine first, cars are cut and pulled off, the tracks close to the Metro Red line continue, there is a WYE there that the cars are turded on. Complete with AC MOTOR STOP signs.
Some long distance trains go this way as well. We raced one while I was riding the red line.
BTW, Most engines changes are now done at Philly 30th street for the southern trains.
Since when? The engine changes at Philadelphia are for the trains headed to Harrisburg and points west. Most of these trains ran under the wire to Harrisburg up until about ten years ago or so. I don't know of any changes being done in Philly for the southern trains, and I (and other members of my family) ride them regularly - Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Silver Palm, Carolinian, and Crescent, depending on our destination.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They were doing it a few months ago, I saw E60's (601 at least couldn't get the other)at philly. There was a disscussion of it on TraiNet forum of Compuserve. Seems Amtrak wanted to consoloidate Engine Operations at one point. I don't have all the details. Also with the 60's getting older and AEM7's can't haul the roadrailers (or whatever you call em) and the 7's have to be doubleheaded to haul some of the florida trains was the reason. I'll see if I can get more detail from the Forum, a member who is a Amtrak Fla train driver.
I have not seen this happen, but have read about it.
Another reason I remember was that the trains from the south are limited to only a few track at Washington, so if the engine change is done there, it congests things. This is a particular problem since the Virginia commuter trains obviously add to the congestion on those platforms.
Often, non metroliners come into washington on those lower level platforms that connect to the south, even when not continuing south. This always annoyed me when I had to haul baggage off the train. I realize that they need to put Superliners in there, but those platforms could be a LOT nicer. And when do they have more than one superliner there? (Never!) They could only have one or two low level platforms...
Right you are. I,DC born, have always been peeved by the platform setup for the lower level. ALL of the main level platforms should have been raised to the high level standard and the same on the lower level with maybe one on each level off to the side for oddball cars. As a non Superliner fan I would just as soon they not show up in DC.. While I understand the economics of more 'seats per car attendant, I have always preferred single level cars and of course DOMES.
What about on weekends when VRE and MARC trains don't run?
I remember reading somewhere, in relation to the new high-speed trains on the Corridor, that they wanted to extend electrification to Pittsburgh. My understanding is that the PRR originally wanted to electrify all the way to Chicao....
-Hank
Last summer I took the Crescent down to Atlanta..not only was the engine done at Philly,but this trip the first engine they hooked had BigTime problems with the power connectors, so as a result we ended up spending an HOUR in 30th St station with NO LIGHTS and NO AC...OW! (It was fun, however listening to the SCREAMING going on back and forth between the engineer,conductor and dispatch on my scanner....)
I have a question about Amtrak changing from electric to diesel power on trains to Harrisburg: Why is that done? Is something wrong with the catenary west of Philly? I know SEPTA EMUs on the R5 run to Downingtown without any problems. Why is Amtrak operating diesel trains to Harrisburg? What a waste of nice catenary wires!
It's due largely to a shortage of equipment - they've got too few meatballs for the Washington-bound traffic. I'm not sure if the catenary is energized much past SEPTA's range any more, but I believe it is still intact all the way to Harrisburg (I know it's still in place in the Harrisburg area). Also, most of the trains that run across PA are section 403 trains, funded by the state, and I suspect that they didn't want to be assessed for upkeep of the overhead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe that's also why the state is buying DMUs for its new Philly-Harrisburg service. However, if there are not enough Toasters for Washington-bound service, why do Keystone trains operate with them from New York to Philadelphia? That would mean some of them are sitting in Philly? Are they used as spares?
No, they don't sit there long enough. Since they are turned quickly, they only need about half as many for the Philly service as they would for the run all the way to Harrisburg. (I don't have exact figures, sorry.) I have been told that they normally run them on the Philly run for a period of time and then switch them to the Washington run so they can go to the yards near D.C. for servicing - there are no particular units assigned to that service.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Back in the late 80's they ran the old Metroliner cars with Cat for hotel power only. A AEM7 or a Diesel pulled the train (great for engine switches, don't lose the air conditioning). As more of those cars went out of service, Harrisburg trains were changed to diesel. The two through trains to PIT are diesel all the time. I don't know about the clockers, there are one or two that skip 30th Street from NYP, I assume these are electric.
I know that the old Metroliner cars did run the New York-Harrisburg service. What I didn't know was that they were pulled by a diesel or electric engine (the engines were actually strong enough to pull the heavy Metroliner cars?) Was this done all the way from New York (if electric) or just from Philadelphia?
The only reason I want to know about the power change at 30th Street is because I'm wondering if maybe Amtrak is planning to scrap the wires west of Philly, or maybe west of Downingtown, where SEPTA R5 trains end.
I really doubt the caternary will come down any time soon. There is no reason to take it down! Sure, the copper and steel are worth a bit, and it takes a small amount of maintenance, but it would be so awfully expensive to reinstall, and there are significant advantages to electric trains, that it would be insanely short-sighted to pull it down. Amtrak would get a ton of heat for doing so.
I do not believe the caternary is deenergized at all at any point east of Harrisburg. The reason there are little or no electric runs out there is a lack of equipment, pure and simple. Hopefully this will change with the HHPs and Acelas arriving and the AEMs being reworked.
Is the acquisition of DMUs by Pa actually happening? I have not heard a word about it for probably over a year. Why did the order diesel? Well, if the service is sucessful in Phil-Hbg service, perhaps these units could be trotted out to other routes in the state, none of which have wires. Then maybe amtrak could be convinced to somehow run faster electric trains Phil-Hbg? (they'll have to tilt to go real fast on that line though).
Another big advantage of electrics on this line is if the service ever gets frequent enough, amtrak could terminate some trains in Surburban station in Philly instead of going to NY. This is impossible with diesel.
The southern trains would have a problem with diesel fumes in the long tunnel south of Baltimore if they switched at Philadelphia. This was another reason for electrification of the PRR route all the way to Washington.
Hmm. They run diesels through the Moffat tunnel out here in colorado, including passenger trains, and its 6 miles long. The problem is if there is a station underground, a la Penn Station or Surburban station in Phila.
I don't know much about the Moffat Tunnel and its ventilation capability. However, according to more than one publication about the Pennsylvania Railroad, Maryland enacted a law against steam trains in the tunnel after an incident. This lead to the Pennsylvania electrification. I'll try to find the references the next time I go to a book store.
Also note the world's worst rail disaster occurred in Europe, circa 1944 in a tunnel and involved fumes from a steam locomotive suffocating people, stowaways, but nonetheless human lives. I know diesels are better than steam locomotive emission, but diesel fumes in a tunnel are still potentially problematic any way you look at it.
Where that publication got info from I'm not sure, but the Union and B&P tunnels were built by PRR predicessors Philadelphia, Wilmington & Baltimore and Baltimore & Potomac Railroads for steam engines (Both tunnels are circa 1885 and had ventilation chimneys.
PRR electrified for the operating efficiencies - faster and MU ability.
B&O electified the Howard Street tunnel when it opened in 1895. No vent chimneys and a 1/2% grade. Northbound trains picked up a motor at Camden Station. The motor pulled the train uphill and detached at Remington Avenue. Southbound trains drifted into Mount Royal Station and worked steam only long enough to start, drifting south to Camden.
Moffat tunnel, has more ventalation capacity than most office buildings. As I understand it (and I'd have to dig through several years of magazines to re-assure myself) there are doors and fans that do the trick. Mount MacDonald tunnel has a similar system.
-Hank
This is the first I've heard of Amtrak changing power on its long distance trains in Philly. Do Virginia-bound Northeast Corridor trains also change power in Philadelphia? Is there really not enough room at Union Station in Washington? And won't slow diesels foul up service for the other trains on the Corridor?
The larger long distance trains have too many cars to do MAS even with two AEM7's instead of one E60. E60 can't go that fast. Remember the long distance train has their normal long distance setup plus some cars for use on the corridor only (their cut at WAS). Trains doing MAS are short 5 car trains.
In Chicago, Amtrak trains are "wyed" outside Union Station and backed in BEFORE arrival. Thus, they are in correct position for their outward trip, after a visit to the 14th Street Yard.
Also meaning passengers have a shorter walk to the stationhouse area--a tradition from long ago--B&O trains were wyed on arrival at Union Station Wash DC as well as Grand Central Chgo.
Backing into Head End Stations -
This was done for a few reasons. First, almost always the First Class (Pullman or Sleeping Cars) were on the rear of the consist. The practice of backing into a station put the First Class passengers closer to the headhouse or station as you suggest. Also, it allows the locomotive, steam years ago or a loud diesel today, to be at the outer end of the station, and usually in the open for exhaust.
Think about the concept of putting your First Class passengers where they have to walk the least. These passengers do pay the highest fares and should be afforded the best service. Is this a concept that AMTRAK would even think about? From past experience, I know AMTRAK used to put their sleepers at the rear of the train, however, a few years back I noticed this wasn't the case anymore.
One thing I did notice on my last AMTRAK journey was when I board the Capital Limited at Chicago's Union Station in November of 1996, they had backed the train in on the "through" track and positioned the sleeping car next to the exit of First Class Lounge. Very good customer service.
I can see that this is important, particularly in this day of looonnnggg strings of cars on the front of Amtrak trains. But it drives passengers a bit nuts! In fact, it seems insulting, because in this day of regulation and liability, it takes Amtrak about 20 minutes to do it.
Wait - are they still backing in, with the Roadrailers on the rear? (I am all for Amtrak making money hauling whatever - but not at the expense of efficient transportation!)
I rode the Night Owl from DC to Boston once or twice via sleeping car. We arrived at Penn at the usual ungodly hour and were awakened by the coupling on of several cars of mail bound for Boston. The line between coupling and collision becomes fine here. :)
NJTransit uses part of Sunnyside and (obviously) their trains cross under the East River to get there. Not all trains do, just some of those being held between the morning and afternoon rushes (some are held in the yard tracks at western mouth of Penn Station); I don't know if they perform any servicing over there or not.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I asked this question before. Can anyone provide me with the signal control lines (General Signal Arrangement drawings) drawings for the following:
1) Myrtle Avenue El from Broadway-Myrtle to Bridge-Jay Streets
2) Culver shuttle
3) Third Avenue El in the Bronx and Manhattan
4) Old Fulton Street El
5) Lexington Avenue El
Again, let me on E-Mail or Subtalk.
I asked this question before. Can anyone provide me with the signal control lines (General Signal Arrangement drawings)
drawings for the following:
1) Myrtle Avenue El from Broadway-Myrtle to Bridge-Jay Streets
2) Culver shuttle
3) Third Avenue El in the Bronx and Manhattan
4) Old Fulton Street El
5) Lexington Avenue El
Again, let me on E-Mail or Subtalk. Add the control line drawings for the 155th Street Shuttle
Was the Sedgwick Station on the 9Av El, the same as the Sedgwick Station on the Putnam Line (NY Central)?
Yes. See Brennan's pages on disused and abandoned stations - linked from this site - for more information.
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/disused.bronx.html
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I always get disputes from fellow staffers at City Planning, who say that the Put must have gone to Grand Central -- my Grandfather rode it, and it didn't -- he changed trains. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I (the grass is always greener) could write a post I could print out and show around the office as to where the Put did and did not go.
The "Put" never had third rail - so it could not operate to GCT. Passengers had to change to Hudson Line MU trains (at High Bridge?) or pick up the 9th Ave. El at Sedgwick Station. There were no dual mode locos in those days. The Put's terminal was adjacent to the 9th Ave. el station, where the Major Deegan is located today just north of Yankee Stadium. FYI, when the 9th Ave. el stopped running in 1940, a shuttle remnant continued to operate between the Polo Grounds and 167/River Ave. on the Woodlawn Jerome IRT. This shuttle ran until 1958, when the "Put" stopped passenger service and the year after the NY Giants left the Polo Grounds for San Francisco.
There is also a Sedgwick station on the CTA 'L' system in Chicago. It is located at 400 West and 1600 North on the Northside line served by the Brown (Ravenswood) and Purple (Evanston Express).
Putnam Division trains never ran into Grand Central. The predecessor New York & Northern did run trains accross the Harlem River to a joint station at 155 St & 8 Av with the Manhattan Railway 9 Av El. This lasted until 1916 (or 18) when Put service was cut back to Highbridge Station and then re-extended to a new Sedgewick Av Station for a connection with the 9 Av El. Putnam Division trains were steam and later diesel hauled so they never ran into GCT. The Getty Square Branch was electrified in 1926 but even the MU's used there did not go to GCT. Passengers would transfer at Highbridge Station to/from Hudson Division trains.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Did the Put's lack of direct Manhattan service contribute to its failure as a passenger line? That was, of course, the reason for the downfall of the NYW&B.
It most certainly did.It must also be said that in the late 1950's the idea of subsidies for necessary transit was only in its infancy and the railroad was divesting itself of what they saw as unprofitable operations. The NYC did away with passenger service on the West Shore at about the same time after first discontinuing the ferry. A short stretch of Put trackage remains in use today at the Put Junction Yard of the MN Harlem Line as part of the wye. There also is some storage of M of W equiptment at the south end;BN Junction on the Hudson Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't say this too loudly, because I don't want to be accused of supporting spending MTA $ on the suburbs, but I think part of the Put should be re-activated. In vicinity of Yonkers Ave, and Tuckahoe Rd, the Put runs very close to the NYS Thruway, the Spain Brook, the Saw Mill, and the Cross County. There is much vacant land there.
My idea to build large parking garages, and run it as a four stop line direct to GCT. Westchesterites who live close to the highways and far from the other Metro North lines, or who can't get parking, would park and ride. There could be some Westchester bus tie ins also. The train would stop at Tuckahoe Rd (NYS Thruway and Sprain exits nearby -- a bridge over the Thruway would extend the tracks to the area between the highways), Yonkers Ave (near the Saw Mill and Cross County), McClean Ave, and next to the public parking lot behind the stores on Broadway, Kingsbridge (for Riverdale folks).
[I don't say this too loudly, because I don't want to be accused of supporting spending MTA $ on the suburbs, but I think part of the Put should be re-activated. In vicinity of Yonkers Ave, and Tuckahoe Rd, the Put runs very close to the NYS Thruway, the Spain Brook, the Saw Mill, and the Cross County. There is much vacant land there.
My idea to build large parking garages, and run it as a four stop line direct to GCT. Westchesterites who live close to the highways and far from the other Metro North lines, or who can't get parking, would park and ride.]
That's not a half bad idea. As you note, some areas along the Put are relatively distant from existing Metro North Stations, and of course there's the lack of available parking at most of the stations. And unlike some other old lines that have been suggested as candidates for reopening - think of the LIRR Rockaway line in Queens and the lines on either side of the Poughkeepsie bridge - the Put's right of way is mostly if not completely intact (after all, freight service ended less than 20 years ago). Parts of the old trackway are used as recreational trails. There'd likely be a public outcry if they were converted back to rail use, but building new recreational trails in a different location would be far easier than building an entirely new rail line.
One more thought - a revived Put could be a useful freight link if it could be tied into the Hudson line at its north end (which would require some new construction, however). Its southern end could be linked into an intermodal yard in the Bronx. Back in its heyday it was used for high-and-wide clearances, and the Hudson line itself has double-stack clearances north of Tarrytown or thereabouts.
Unless they've changed the Main Street bridge (crosses the south end of the station) since I was in Poughkeepsie last, there's no clearance for doublestacks there. The eastern-most track, which is the only one that might have the height (the bridge slopes down from east to west) runs quite close to the retaining wall, and all tracks pass by the new high-level platforms (that might or might not be a problem, I don't know). There are also a couple of other bridges on that part of the line that are too low, although I doubt anyone would care if they were closed and removed; even if it was decided to raise them there would be little impact to local traffic while that was going on, unlike the Main Street bridge, which is heavily used, especially by commuters.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Sedgewick Av station was built about 1918 in order to allow Putnam Division passengers to transfer to the 9 Av El. The Put platforms were low level and ran north to south while the 9 Av platforms were high level and ran east to west at the south end of the Putnam Division tracks.(The 9 Av El platforms are still largely intact under the Maj.Deegan Expressway).
Larry,RedbirdR33
The real Sedgwick station is on the Brown Line in Chicago! Two blocks
north is the greatest BBQ rib restaurant in the world, Twin Anchors.
Shhh, don't tell anybody.
Can anyone tell me why someone would name a railroad bridge the "Hell
Gate" Bridge? What an evil name to give to a bridge!!
It is my understanding that the expanse of water that the bridge crosses is named the Hell Gate long before the bridge was built.
It is a spectacular bridge though, isn't it?
Yeah, it is. And one of the few (actually the only) nice things about taking Amtrak down from New Haven. Oh yeah, and the view of the city from it, though you're a little too far away for my tastes. I also whsh Metro-North went to Penn, but it'll never happen....
Metro-North into Penn Station. It is possible. If we were in a European country like Switzerland or Germany, it would already be a reality.
>If we were in a European country like Switzerland or Germany, it would >already be a reality. <
If we were a European country, we'd also have a 2nd Ave. Subway, and a 1-seat ride to all the airports.
Mike
The real issue though, is that GCT has track capacity and Penn doesn't, thus the effort to get the LIRR through the 63rd St. Tunnel.
The side benifit is to elimanite SOME of the traffic up the 1/2/3/9 and over via the Shuttle. That's why the LIRR pushes the benifits of Atlantic Ave to it's customers, i.e. two results, less traffic to Penn & less down IRT 7th Ave & IND 8th Ave.
Mr t__:^)
[The side benifit is to elimanite SOME of the traffic up the 1/2/3/9 and over via the Shuttle. That's why the LIRR pushes the benifits of Atlantic Ave to it's customers, i.e. two results, less traffic to Penn & less down IRT 7th Ave & IND 8th Ave.]
I've heard that some years ago the LIRR promoted travel to Atlantic Avenue and even offered some discounted fares. They no longer do any promotions that I know of, and definitely have no discounts. Seems like a wasted opportunity.
I haven't been a regular for five years now, so maybe they gave up on their "Flatbush Connection" sell.
But you're right, it's easier to get a seat going to Atlantic Ave, the problem is getting on the IRT, but then if I only had to dip under the river to be at work I would probally go that way. Then maybe there are a FEW folks that work in Brooklyn :o)
Mr t__:^)
Sort of unrelated.. a few scenes of the film version of Godspell are filmed under the Hell Gate Bridge. No views of any trains (ob. rail content) but you can get an idea of it's sheer enormity. And I think it was pretty genius of the director/designer to film a movie about the teachings of Jesus in the shadow of a bridge called Hell Gate. (Most people probably have no idea what it is, anyway.)
-Dave
The closing scenes of The French Connection were also filmed beneath Hell Gate Bridge. I read that Hell Gate got its name from the water turbulence in that area; that's where the Harlem and East Rivers meet.
"Hell Gate" refers to what happens in that area when the tide changes, i.e. it's a hell of a place to be with a small boat.
More to the point if you trying to come from LI Sound to the East River in a small boat you realy have to watch when you do it, i.e between tides at slack water.
The fill in that La Guardia airport has been doing North of Hell Gate has made the problem area grow larger.
(I use to sell "Intercoastal Waterway" charts in Bean Town, out of the Custom House, great view ... was even in the Clock room once)
Mr t__:^)
In addition to the tides, I believe the area was also know for its dangerous rocks, before they were blasted away. I also believe that Hell Gate is where the General Slocum went down, killing over 1000 people, the worst transit disaster in the city's history.
That bridge was overbuilt to the max. Even so, it was superbly designed. The engineering was so precise, that when the final section of the main span was lifted into place, the necessary adjustment to bring everything into alignment was half an inch. The bridge is so strong it could support 67 diesel locomotives. I'll bet it could withstand a direct hit from a bomb or missile. Put it in place of the Manhattan Bridge, and you could run subway trains over it around the clock for an eternity. Triplexes, BMT standards, R-32s, you name it.
If it ever had to be demolished, that would be one difficult task.
It withstood years of GG-1s (even double headed). I guess either the PRR foresaw ultrahigh amounts of service (it was 4 track at one time I think), ultra heavy locomotives, both, or just wanted to make a statement. I believe the origional penn Station cost 150,000,000 to build also...
[It withstood years of GG-1s (even double headed). I guess either the PRR foresaw ultrahigh amounts of service (it was 4 track at one time I think), ultra heavy locomotives, both, or just wanted to make a statement. I believe the original Penn Station cost $150,000,000 to build also...]
Although I don’t know the correct amount in 1910 $$$’s, keep in mind that was money invested by a PRIVATE company. The funds DID NOT come from the public purse.
It is unfortunate that transit authorities today squander public tax money for boondoggles, and thus, bring the full wrath of elected officials around election time.
>> Although I don’t know the correct amount in 1910 $$$’s, keep in
>> mind that was money invested by a PRIVATE company. The funds DID
>> NOT come from the public purse.
The Hell Gate Bridge was part of Alexander Cassatt's grand vision for the Pennsylvania Railroad. It was built to compete with the New York Central Railroad's direct link from Manhattan to upstate New York and New England.
Despite the enormous costs, the project went ahead as "an act of good citizenship, which, while it will not earn a fair money return on its cost, will be a contribution toward the common welfare and toward progress" (qtd. from Railway Age Gazette, ed. unknown).
It's sad that major corporations today are, for the most part, quite unwilling to carry out projects of this magnitude for the benefit of society.
Cut out the red tape, envionmental statments and forced payroll padding that building any major project nowadays involves, and you would see more private construction. With all those obsticles, it would be tough for a private company to get a project on the scale of Hell's Gate past the stockholders.
> Put it in place of the Manhattan Bridge, and you could run subway
> trains over it around the clock for an eternity.
Maybe they should move it south ;-)
-Dave
You ought to read what they had to do to get rid of the "Chinese Wall" to PRR [Philadelphia's] Broad Street Station after they shut down service in 1952. Most information is in a book on the history of the Pennsylvania Railroad, (I don't have the Title right now because it is in storage to due a recent relocation). Some, but limited, information can be found on the internet site at http://concentric.net/%7Ewsbcos/prrbssc01.htm .
Before the east river was deepened, that stretch of river between Randall's Island and Queens was extemely rough, navigation was thus trepidatious, and sailors nicknamed it "Hell's Gate." If my recollection serves, that's also where a Ferry caught fire killing hundreds of people earlier this century.
Not a ferry, an excursion steamer, the General Slocum. It did something very rare, as well. It sunk TWICE. Once after the fire, and again several years later after being converted to a barge. It's somewhere off the Jersey coast. (source:"Shipwreaks of New Jersey")
-Hank
And, obrail, an account I once read of the incident, which
happened in the 1880s, I believe, has an el tie-in. The General
Slocum disaster was probably the largest single loss of life
in NYC, excepting wars and what not. The excursion steamer
left port from Brooklyn carrying thousands of German-Americans
from Middle Village, Maspeth and other enclaves. It was some kind
of picnic. The details escape me. A fire broke out in the
engine room and quickly spread. For some reason, the captain
took the wrong action and increased speed, racing up the East
River towards the Bronx. The wind fanned the flames, and the
passengers had no way of escaping.
Here's the rail tie-in: The story goes, word quickly spread that
there was a flaming boat steaming up the East River. Reporters from
a particular paper (I think it was the Herald), with offices
near City Hall, hopped on the fairly new elevated train and raced
uptown, beating all of the other papers to the scene.
I didn't know the the vessel was raised and converted to a barge.
As for the Hell Gate, I seem to recall that the name is derived
from the Dutch name for the area, and is decriptive of the
landscape, and not any demonic tendencies, just as the area of
Queens known today as "Flushing" was not named for an abundance of
plumbing supply houses, but is derived from the Dutch "Vlissengen"
[The General Slocum disaster was probably the largest single loss of life in NYC, excepting wars and what not. The excursion steamer
left port from Brooklyn carrying thousands of German-Americans
from Middle Village, Maspeth and other enclaves. It was some kind
of picnic. The details escape me.]
Most of the passengers were from what was then a thriving German-immigrant neighborhood in what is now known as the East Village. As the excursion was on a workday, there were relatively few adult men on board. The loss of so many lives essentially broke up the neighborhood, to the point that within a few years thereafter it had virtually lost its German character.
I believe there is a monument commemorating the disaster in Tomkins Square Park, which was near the center of the now-vanished neighborhood. Many of the dead were buried at a mass grave at Lutheran Cemetery in Queens.
I thought HELL in German meant LIGHT or somthing like that. I know of a German Graphic firm called Hell Graphics.
There was a terrible joke that Bob Hope once used which pertains to Flushing and football (no, it has nothing to do with the Jets), specifically, a bowl game:
The Tidy Bowl in Flushing, New York, as in the toilet bowl cleaner.
Well, I said it was Bob Hope's joke.
According to Joe Brennan's document, this station can be seen between 161 and 167. I usually am going downtown, which means it would be on my right. I've watched the tracks go down and curve to the right, and there is a section of elevated track that isn't connected to anything. It is possible I've seen the station and not known. Does anyone have a picture taken from the tracks? Or more than the one picture availible on this site?
David: A portion of the station remains intact from the portals to a short distance west of Jerome Av. If you look due west along 162 St from the el you will see the wall where the portals are located.
Larry,RedbirdR33
If anyone has rode the F line? There are two trains on the Culver, one to Kings Hwy, one to Coney Island. Why not extend the G line over to Kings Hwy. I use the R train to transfer at 4th Avenue to the F. I have to wait for an F train just to move over ONE station for the G. Isn't that ridiculous? I've seen people frustrated over this. Anyone agrees with me, please write.
This has been an issue for quite some time, especially during the Bergen St Fire. I recall the other day that the B train exactly went Express to Kings Hwy after Smith - 9th and it seemed like an interesting idea if the TA does not want to renovate the lower part of the Bergen St station. As we have said before the G train at least should go to Church Ave or Kings Hwy (during rush hours) but the G usually take more than 10 minutes ot arrive and at least two F's passes by. So until things change, then it seems unrealistic right now.
Looking at the track diagrams within this site. It would be a good idea to renovate the lower tracks for F service because it goes striaght to Jay Street. Meanwhile, upper track service the G, since it is the only way to Queens.
The Kings Hwy, 18 Av, Church, 7 Av, Smith-9 onward..... should be G stops (since we have the extra express track) unless it would be better to put G service on all stations since of its low service.
Anyone agree with me, please advise the TA as an idea. I'm just a high school junior from Brooklyn Tech. No one listens to a kid! :P
The idea was tried for a time starting in August 1968 with all Coney Island F's running express from Kings Highway to Jay St in the am rush,F trains starting at Kings Hwy ran exp from Church to Jay and the G started at Church and made all local stops. The residents of the bypassed local stops btwn Church and Jay raised #%*+@ and the Kings Highway trains began making all local stops to Jay. The residents raised a little more @#$*& and soon all F's ran local ntbd in the am rush and the G was back to Smith-9 Sts.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Kings Hwy F plus the G isn't such a bad deal. The G alone is a bad deal.
Don't worry I 'm only a College Freshman, be proud that you have great ideas - Keep it up , I am listening.
And I am a college senior so that keep them ideas coming........
After Kings Highway Coney Island Bound the TA removed the switch or Interlocking to/from the local tracks. All trains would have to turn from the center track entering Kings Hwy, even from local to center back out on center or local northbound.
Next interlocking has no express platform.
Around 1990, if I remember, Due to reconstuction on the Culver, "G" trains ran local to Church Ave. A temporary platform was built over the local track at 4th Avenue, making the express track, in effect, a local track. Thusly, the "G" had nowhere to turn around, & had to travel to Church.
Just watched the new DVD of this film and here's a subway action report:
The action takes place at "Wall St." station, the platforms of which at least are most likely a set. It seemed to have an island platform with a side platform against the wall but it did not look like any existing platform configuration similar to that that I could think of.
I wasn't sure if they were using the right exteriors for a "Wall St." station since I'm not too familiar with that area, above ground. (Does anyone know where that huge wall size version of "Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte" seen in the above-ground scenes was/is?)
The beginning of DVD Scene 7 shows car R30 8397 trailing the train, and it is this car that later decimates the platform. When Willis' character finds the bomb, the interior car number can be seen: R29 8656, and when he throws the bomb off the train, the interior of the last car is shown to be R29 8593, but the exterior scene is an R30 signed up as a "C". (a common error it seems; see the entry for Jacob's Ladder; both the R10 cars used in that film and the R30 cars ended their service life on the "C" and no one bothered to change the signs).
And last but not least, one of the middle cars on the train is R30 8408, which was also used in Money Train and Blade (the most famous subway car movie star!)
-Dave
I didn't realize that thing had a name! It's at William and Liberty Streets. I have the same DVD, watched it, and figured out that all the scenes involving the subway station take place right out on William St, next to Chase Manhattan Plaza, where I work. Asking around, I learned that they filmed for 3 months of weekends, whenever it didn't rain. They had set up the whole phony plaza and everything above ground in what is now an empty lot. I also thought I spotted R30s in the picture, but freeze-framing didn't help me, as I was trying to count the doors. I like that second cab on thecar Willis breaks into...
-Hank
From what I understand, the scenes of the demolition of the subway and the area around the bank vault were shot in a large lot that is adjacent to the Flatbush branch of the LIRR. It is primarily used to store MTA/LIRR vehicles and has a steep earthen ramp that goes down into a large pitted area. The location can be seen from the street and is situated by Flatbush & Atlantic Aves. and runs along Hanson Place just in front of the Atlantic Shopping center.
It's interesting that such an explosion was worked into this movie; yet wasn't in the original Pelham 1-2-3. In the novel, DCI Daniels chases the hijacked car on the express track in the first car of Woodlawn 1-4-1. Unbeknownst to him, the hijackers, specifically Ryder, boobytrapped the rails with hand grenades, and when the car passed over them, it was blown off the track. I suspect the producers decided it wasn't worth the trouble to stage such a stunt.
Sounds like the idea for the scene in Die Hard was taken from the Pelham 1-2-3 novel- the track was wired to trigger the bomb to explode.
I've contributed a new page of tutorial info to the subway
site, about rotary (synchronous) converters and the 25-cycle
power system based upon them. Check it out....
http://www.nycsubway.org/sub21/rotary.html
(partially illustrated with Dave Rosenthal's wonderful photos).
Bernie
I was going through some of my old stuff in my parents' attic and found a dusty, but good condition children's book called 'Barto Takes the Subway'. It was written by Barbara Brenner w/photograhs by Sy Katzoff. Published by Alfred Knopf in 1961 as a hard cover book with the Library catalog #: 60-13023.
The book describes the adventure of a pre-teen Puerto Rican boy on a trip (crosstown, downtown, uptown is never explained) to visit his Grandmother. It is his first trip on the subway so he is naturally awed by the sites and sounds. He is accompanied by his older sister as they ride what appears to be the Dyre Ave. IRT Line. The cars are the R-15s and near the end of the trip Barto gets to sit in the motorman's cab and pretends to drive the train.
I almost totally forgot about 'Barto Takes the Subway'. Although set in the early '60s, the story of a young boy "discovering the subways" for the first is a timeless one and would be great if the Transit Museum could acquire the rights and do a reissue of the book.
I remember reading that book when i was 5 years old while I was at pre-school. I really love that book. Now i never find that book and nowhere to found.
I have the book.I thought he was on the Pelham line. I believe he boarded at 110st or 116st. There is a picture of Westchester yard and a one of a tower north of Parkchester.
Thanks, Mike. I wasn't sure since I'm a born'n bread Brooklynite, and the book doesn't give any good pictures that show exactly the station used by Barto. And there are not enough close-ups of the train to see the route number, either.
Do I remember the book? When I was a kid I borrowed it so many times from the library that it became a regular joke in my family. 8-)
Why has the Park Place station for the /been closed?
I wasn't aware that it was. When did this happen?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You may be thinking of the Park Place station on the currently-being-renovated Franklin shuttle. When and if it resumes operation, the Park Place station will reopen. The adjacent Dean Street station has been permanently closed.
Of course, with all the weekend track work featuring the 2 running on Lexington and the 3 going to South Ferry, I wouldn't blame you for thinking that Park Place (along with Fulton, Wall and Clark Street stations HAVE been closed. But, no, they still are open.
I just checked the MTA site and Park Place on the 2/3 is scheduled to close on 3 April until October of '99. No mention of why.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They've been working on the station finishes at Park Place for a while now already, putting up those prefab tile panels--I assume that has been part of the reason trains have been routed through the Joralemon tunnel on off hours. The only reason I can think of to close the entire station, though, is to replace the escalators.
Seems like a dumb move to do major work on this station and on the Fulton Street connecting passageways at the same time--good luck fighting your way from the 2&3 to the IND, folks.
The station will be closed temporarily for renovation work including floor tile. because of the island platform there is no alternative. Fulton/Broadway-Nassau is open- it was closed for a weekend due to lead paint removal. I worked that location that weekend and spoke to the contractor). For transfer between IND and IRT use Fulton/ Broadway-Nassau.
Hey Christopher, if you are testing something, USE THE PREVIEW MESSAGE BUTTON to see if it works! If it doesn't work, go back and fix it. Don't post this test crap if you don't know what you're doing.
I’m reading with great interest the thread regarding NYC fare alternatives. It seems to me that there are several different fare collecting systems in play here. This seems VERY CUSTOMER UNFRIENDLY to me.
Do all operating authorities use the Cubic collection system? If so, why can’t you use one card to ride any vehicle? Isn’t the technology is available to “sort out” and assign revenue to the proper operating authority regardless of point of purchase?
The CTA also uses Cubic fare collection calling their medium the Farecard. These come in a number of varieties.
The regular Farecard can be purchased from vending machines located at all ‘L’ stations. You can buy one for as little as $1.50 (the one-way full fare without transfer), or charge the card up to $90. You get $1 bonus for every $10 you purchase. The usual outlets (currency exchanges, food stores, etc.) offer $10 and $20 - $11 & $22 respectively – to the bus riders.
The CTA began offering 1-day ($5), 7-day ($20), and 30-day ($75) for the daily riders. These fares are for full fare customers. There is a 30-day pass for reduced fare riders offered at $35. The cards are valid for use for the time limit from the time you first use it vs. ending at midnight.
The CTA also offers visitor passes in the following varieties: 1-day ($5), 2-day ($9), 3-day ($12), and 5-day ($18).
The Farecard is also valid on PACE, the suburban bus operating division. This is possible because both the CTA and PACE are part of the RTA. METRA is also part of the RTA, but doesn’t accept CTA or PACE fare medium.
The CTA also pioneered the "U-Pass". The idea behind this is to encourage college students to become regular transit riders. All university students attending class at participating university pay $50 per semester. They receive a picture ID Farecard to allow unlimited access to CTA during that semester. Such a deal! It is hoped that these students will become future transit riders replacing the older group of riders now leaving the system.
I myself, who is “carless” in Chicago, opt for the 30-day pass except when I'm traveling. Then I substitute the 7-day passes until I return and then go back to the 30-day pass.
[Do all operating authorities use the Cubic collection system? If so, why can’t you use one card to ride any vehicle?]
- NJ Transit has a Cubic system that takes bills & coin, BUT no dip/swipe cards.
- MOST all the carriers in MTA & NYC-DOT have Cubic:
-- TA buses & trains plus DOT buses are in ONE Cubic/TA mainframe. So the "privates" give their elect (MetroCard) money to the TA then they make a bank deposit in our account, less certain fees for their friendly support, etc.
-- LI Bus & Suffolk Transit accept MetroCard
-- LIRR sells Mail-N-Ride trickets that have several flavors of MetroCard money on the back side, i.e. value/unlimited.
-- MetroNorth ... sorry don't know what they do.
-- Hudson Rail Line, apparently MetroNorth has 10 buses that soon will be equiped with Cubic Fareboxes. If someone knows more about this I would appreciate the input ... just nosy.
[Isn’t the technology is available to “sort out” and assign revenue to the proper operating authority regardless of point of purchase?]
Well the PATH/Port Auth & MTA folks have always had a problem working with each other ... it's political thing. BUT, as I alludited to above the TA does that for TA, DOT, LI Bus, etc.
[CTA pioneered the "U-Pass"... college students ... regular transit riders.]
I don't know that I would give Chicago credit for inventing this, BUT it does exist in several cities out side of NYC. We do have a school program for kids: Free, 1/2 fare, Class Trip (2 rides).
The MetroCard system is probally too complex right now, but what ever type of card you buy they purposely sell on the same stock, so that it looks "uniform". The exceptions of Senior/Disabled/School/Employee, AND now the "One Trip" green card that comes on Transfer stock.
The other thing to remember is that the suits that runs these systems in our big cities talk to one another, so your system realy isn't that much different then ours. Hay, if it's good enough for Chicago, Washington, Atlanta, Miami, Houston, San Fran then it should be good enough for NYC ? They won't admit this because then you'll want to know why they need so many folks to STUDY things.
Thanks for the question Windy City Jim K !!!
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for bringing up the CTA issue. What I find most discriminatory in NYC is that: a)you must put at least $3.00 on the card, and b) you cannot transfer for cash or token bet. bus and train; neither restriction applies in CTA,etc.
Boston has a very simple (and in my opinion) very inexpensive fare system.
Basic single fares, for buses are $0.60 and subways $0.85 (a few stations at outer ends of the Green and Red lines are extra fare).
Monthly passes are available for purchase one at a time (at selected MBTA outlets) or via the Web. A yearly subscription is also available by mail - get 12 but pay for only 11 (that's an 8% discount every year!). The monthly cost:
Bus - $20
Subway - $27
Combo (Bus&Subway) - $46
Commuter Rail Zone 1 - $64
Commuter Rail Zone 2 - $72
...up to...
Commuter Rail Zone 9 - $136
All commuter rail passes include unlimited access to all subway and bus lines!
For perspective, Zone 2 is "Route 128," the beltway which encloses all of Boston and many of the near-by suburbs. Zone 9 is Worcester and Providence!
All passes also permit "bring a friend for free" on Sunday, and returning 11 used passes from a 12-month period to your insurance agent will get you about %15 off the comprehensive portion of your auto insurance.
For visitors, the Visitors' Passport allows one, three, or seven days' riding on subways and buses for $5, $9, and $18 respectively.
[Commuter Rail Zone 9 - $136
All commuter rail passes include unlimited access to all subway and bus lines!
For perspective ... Zone 9 is Worcester and Providence!]
Ouch. My trusty road atlas shows Providence to be 50 miles from Boston. Most likely the train distance isn't that much different. My monthly LIRR ticket is for travel from Medford, which is 55 miles from Penn Station, in other words only a slightly longer trip than Providence - Boston. Yet it costs me $214 a month *without* any subway or bus access!
Right you are, Peter! SUCHADEAL here in Boston. I live at Zone 2, but with the discounts I've mentioned, my monthly total commuting cost is about $60 per month, or $3.75 per day (includes $1 per day to park at the train station) - with free use of subways, buses, and trains during other times (and you know I do!). Since my Chevy Tahoe (no, we don't have to start that thread again!) gets 15 miles to the gallon, and it's 30 miles round-trip to work, gas alone would be over $2.
When people in Boston complain about the commuter train/subway service here, I tell them they have a great deal over New York. The only downside is that the subways and buses shut down from about 1-5am (6am on Sunday).
You know, I could almost agree with shutting down 1 - 5 am. What seems really dumb is shutting down at midnight, as is the practice in DC and the bay area. What's worse, in DC, the last train leaves downtown at midnight, so it leaves quite a bit earlier if you are in an outlying area heading in. Drove me nuts. They did not even extend it on _New Years Eve_!!!!
At least in Philly the bus replaces the trains at night. In DC or SF, you are just stuck.
Boston's lines ending times are mostly in the 12:30 to 1:30 a.m. range, with an interesting twist. There is a "meet" at Park Street, with the Red and Green line's last trains leaving for outbound destinations at the same time to exchange passengers (they platform on different levels, however - Red below Green).
On New Years, subways and commuter rail lines all have later ending times, 2:00 a.m. I believe -- and YES -- all rides are free on New Year's eve!
One advantage of the overnight shut down is that maintenance can be done during these hours, so there are not as many GOs in Boston. But with the bars closing at 2:00 a.m., it's impossible to stay for last call, and get home via public transportation. Catching very early flights at Logan Airport is a problem too.
You are correct Todd, Boston has the most complete and probably the cheapest transit fare system in the US.
However, keep in mind that the 'T' is more heavily subsidized than CTA. CTA has one of the highest farebox recoveries in the US. By law, it must be over 50%.
The MBTA pass system was implemented under the Gunn administration, I think. I say this because he, and his entourage, brought the idea to SEPTA in the 1980's. It is VERY user friendly.
I will not argue that the 'T' as a good deal going. If you live there you are nuts not to opt for the pass, and there is one usually tailor made for everyone's needs.
Except on Staten Isl where you CAN get a paper/mag Transfer that is good on their train. You can also get one a St George (stand-alone farebox) for use when you get off the train to take a bus home.
Mr t__:^)
Heck if you don't get off at St. George the SIR (Train) is free and you can use that transfer (if you make your connections) on a nother bus. (BUS-Train-BUS all for $1.50).
A big-time correction re: the Cinemax showing of THE INCIDENT this month: the showing will be on April 12th..repeat April 12th..at 7 AM (ET) Sorry bout that....
See if you don't agree that's one helluva mockup for a World's Fair Lo-V!
When the R16's were delivered new, all of the 6400's were delivered before any of the 6300's. Was there a reason for this?
Karl: I don't know why the 6400's came first but I found an interesting note while I was looking it up. When the first R-16 arrived #6400 she was put on display on the lower level of the BMT City Hall Station on Oct 27,1954 for the 50th Anniversary of the opening of the subway along with an IRT (probably Gibbs) Hi-V. The lower level was open to the public for the occasion and vistors could reach the lower level from the street,but free rides where not permitted. I think that this was the only time the lower level has been open to the public.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS I did receive your e-mail and responded.
Most likely the reason for the 6400's coming first is that they had GE controls, while the 6300's had Westinghouse. Westinghouse probably just didn't have the equipment all ready as quick as GE did.
Brian Cudahy, in Under the Sidewalks of New York, mentions the number of that Gibbs Hi-V which was displayed at City Hall lower level along with 6400 in 1954. I don't remember it offhand, but I do know it wasn't Seashore's 3352. He describes 6400 as being "painted in a glossy coat of olive green paint", and goes on to say that the anniversary celebration was low key.
Steve: Thanks for the tip. I looked in Cudahy's book and it was 3453.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Maybe the should return to this color scheme....
The 3 is a Seventh Avenue service, and by its nature, its route color is Red. While I do get nostalgic for the confetti-colored 1967 and 1968 maps, the current order makes much more sense. The cyan (or light blue) is probably being held for future use - my guess - (don't hold your breath, fellow SubTalkers) is for Second Avenue, although I doubt if we'll see it any time soon.
Wayne
....or maybe they've decided that light blue doesn't show up as well. I remember light blue signs fading rather quickly.....and with a flourescent light behind then, they are difficult to discern the numbers inside circles. (or they COULD do as they did on the yellow signs, go to a black letter/number....)
The 3 is a Seventh Avenue service, and by its nature, its route color is Red. While I do get
nostalgic for the confetti-colored 1967 and 1968 maps, the current order makes much more sense. The cyan (or light blue) is probably being held for future use - my guess - (don't hold your
breath, fellow SubTalkers) is for Second Avenue, although I doubt if we'll see it any time soon.
Dave - please delete #30534 - it is miscolored (forgot a virgule to end the coloring sequence)
Wayne
I liked the red touch when you were talking about the you kinda make the reason why it is red stand out...
I know. I just like this color though............
Of course, the first section of 2nd Av. will be yellow. But I always figured that the main trunk portion below 63rd would use light blue, since it was freed by discontinuance of JFK express service. On the other hand, if 2nd Av is tied into Nassau St, it could wind up being brown.
What about magenta? We haven't seen them at all in quite a while.
I think some people might confuse it with the Flushing line violet.
Yeah, the colors have been kind of interchangeable, with some maps and signs showing purple, and some showing magenta. A more flesh colored pink could be used (the DOT express bus map uses this for Liberty Lines), and there are several shades of green, purple and orange for other companies.
Questions about the
1. Will it go back to 137 during rush hours?
2. Will it become a 10 car train?
3. Will it lose it cars to the 7 train?
4. Why is it going wide cab? That was my best front door view.
Comment please.......
Will it go back to 137 during rush hours?
1. Not unless there's another flood along Lenox Avenue
Will it become a 10 car train?
2. Not right now unless they can find a way to fit 10-car consists onto all tracks in the Lenx Yard.
Will it lose it cars to the 7 train?
3. Not right away - the "Years of Our Lives" cars are probably going to stay right where they are for now. The 7 cars probably would be eventually replaced with cars from the 1. Don't know where the 11th cars would come from - likely would be from the 3, maybe from the 2100 series.
(I've been trying to get a picture of #1954 (my birthyear) and I've been foiled four times I've tried!)
Why is it going wide cab?
4. They're doing that to most of the R62As - all those ending in 1, 5, 6 and 9, looks like they're doing it irregardless of whether or not they will form bunches.
These are my own observations - other more informed individuals may have more detailed information on the above.
BTW - I see you found the 1967 color bullet. They're all out there except for the #2, which is under "current" since it didn't change.
Wayne
Ok the aome No.3 Trains were going to turn at 137 Street because there is a demand for it along the Broadway Line. But htat is not going to happen for 2 reasons I was told. 1. The Poeple a long the Lenox Ave don't want a decrease in service. 2. They don't want to add extra relay jobs.
As for the No.7 that is being debated. The No. 1,3, or No.6 are at risk of possible lossing there R 62A. Ofcause how ever gives up the R 62A's get the R 142.
Nice typing. Bacardi or Gordins?
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
I hate to sound like a nineteenth-century schoolmaster, but it's offensive to have Jesus using non-standard English (it's "Let him . . . cast"). On top of that, I fail to see what the biblical quote has to do with questions about Lenox Avenue service.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
The point Simon was trying to make was that the criticism of the spelling was out of line and that the inference that the poster may have been under the influence was unwarranted at best, and offensive at worst.
Wayne
I made no reference to Jesus in my message. I simply wanted to underline the fact that we all make tiping errors from tome to tome.
The views expressed by most subscribers are worthy errors included.
Thank You for helping me out there. I'm just going to ignor that other guy Harry who thinks he is perfict.
That parable has been in general English usage for as long as I can remember. To insinuate that because someone's spelling is less than perfect then he must be under the influence is uncalled for.
Mabee I shud start speling uzing fonetiks insted ov nawmul Inglish.
Wayne
No problem David, although Mr Slants English accent needs a little polish.
Righto, I will endeavour to polish it up a bit. Next thing you know I will be driving on the left side of the road and announcing Victoria Line stations in my sleep.
Here's one for you all: Bogies (UK) = Trucks (US)
Wayne
> Here's one for you all: Bogies (UK) = Trucks (US)
And to be even more confusing, Lorries (UK) = Trucks (US)
:)
-Dave
And, of course:
Rails are metals; switches are points; freight cars are wagons; engineers are drivers; ties are sleepers; sleeping cars are Pullmans; towers are signal boxes; streetcars are trams; carts are trolleys; french fries are chips; coaches are carriages.
Anybody care to add?
Winston Churchill said it best"The American and British are one people separated by a common language."
Larry,RedbirdR33
No Dan you are wrong. Points are switches, drivers are engineers, chips are fries etc etc. Potato is potatoe (as spelt by a certain vice president).
Right on your side of the pond. Since the "common" tongue arose on your isle, it's our "speed it up, gotta get going" American mentality.
If I'm wrong to you, then you're wrong to me. Lets call the whole thing off.
That certain vice-president is planning a run for the highest office in the land. (Can you say elekshun.)
Underpasses are subways; the subway is the underground or tube.
Windshields are windscreens; hoods or trunk lids (I can't remember which) are bonnets, and my favorite, a baby carriage is a perambulator.
Perambulator sounds like something you'd cook with....
-Hank
The hood is a bonnet, the trunk is a boot.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks. And a monkey wrench is a spanner. It gets even more interesting in musical terms. Wayne, are you familiar with these?:
Whole note: breve
Half note: semibreve
Quarter note: crochet
Eighth note: quaver
Sixteenth note: semiquaver
Thirty-second note: demi-semiquaver
Sixty-fourth note: hemi-demi-semiquaver
At least a parrot is a parrot, dead or alive. Monty Python fans will know what I'm talking about.
No I don't recall the musical terms but thanks for passing them along.
What do they call "dotted" notes?
Wayne
If I read the LU stock book correctly,
Trucks are "bogies".
Conductors are "guards".
Also (unrelated to subways [tubes])
(US) (UK)
curb = kerb
druggist = chemist
elevator = lift
traffic circle (for all you NJ folks) = roundabout
sanitation worker = dustman
~ truck = dustcart
The list goes on and on
Wayne
I can see John Cleese at his desk now: "And now for something completely different." Cut to a train of slant R-40s on the Victoria line, running RIGHTHANDED!
And they'd have a LIGHT BLUE "V" in their sign window!
I remember a dream I had a few years back - a mix of NY R17 (6500 and 6600 series) and Olive Green/Dark Brown LU 38 stock running in a signe consist on the Underground somewhere but I didn't see the station name, just the round "Underground" sign. It had an arched plaster ceiling with octagonal coffers set in it. When I finally got out of the station (after walking through a maze of ornate corridors) I was near the Big Ben. It was a very vivid dream and after I woke up I wrote this down in one of my notepad files.
Wayne
I was riding the #6 train, and I noticed that in between the cars on car #1823 was a 10 in a green circle rather than a 6 in a green circle. Does anyone out there have a clue what this is about? Thanks.
--EJM
Another sawbuck! We saw #1744 wearing one back a few months ago. There's more than just 1 thru 7 and 9 on the R62A rolls - there is 8 (green), 10 (you saw it), 11 (purple), and 12 and 13 too (red). These are all "future route" signs.
Wayne
Wayne,
Thanks for the info. Do you have any ideas about what routes they have in mind?
--EJM
I believe that routes like the 8, 10, 11, 12, & 13 will be the expresses of the 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, & 3, but I'm not sure which of the higher numbers correspond to which of the lower numbers. The only one I know is that the 11 will be the express of the 7 (isn't that funny - 7-11!). I think this is a great idea, because at Queensboro Plaza, whenever there is an express 7, the conductor has to yell that it is an express, not a local, like 5 times really loud to avoid having people get on and think it's a local. If people automatically saw the 11, they would understand it was express and the conductor would not have to yell and scream.
They don't see the signs that say '7 Express' or the diamond instead of the circle, what makes you think they'll see the '11'?
-Hank
Maybe if they see the then they can distinguish it from the as being an express train?
Damn I'm having fun with these bullets............
It's okay to think that they are future routes, but do you think anyone would want to take the #13 train?
They did back in the Old Days, when it was known as the Fulton Street EL - only the special cars (Green Hornet, Zephyr, and MAYBE Multi Section) carried the #13 designation.
Wayne (I am not triskadecaphobic)
The Multi-Sections carried the 13 number right up until the end of 14th Street-Fulton Street express service when the outer Fulton St. El was connected to the IND.
I often wondered how the TA had the gall to run 'SS' trains only 20 or 25 years after the end of WW II.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
Hank,
The general public is not as enlightened on subway signage as we are here on SubTalk. I don't think many know the difference between a diamond and a circle. Also, there is no sign that says "7 Express"
I realize this. And more accurately, the side sign says:
<Express--Local>
-Hank
In addition, there are no dumb questions here at Subtalk, some of us may be employees, but we are all fans and willing to share info.
To quote a favorite teacher:
"There are no dumb questions. Only dumb people, who refuse to ask questions because they percieve them as dumb."
Thanks, Mr. Lawrie.
-Hank
Some people just don't bother to look at the signs on the train. Or perhaps they don't know where to look. Sometimes they might not even know which track a certain train runs on. My mother and sister were going to Lincoln Center once to see Swan Lake (possibly my all-time favorite piece of clasical music). I told them they need to take a 1 to 66th St. from Times Square. Well, I found out when they got home that they almost got on a 2 instead. Luckily, my mother asked someone if this was a 1 train and was told no, it runs on the track across the platform. Looking back, I can't recall if I told them the 1 runs on the outer tracks or not. I've heard stories of people trying to get to Lincoln Center and not getting off at 66th St. in time. Then, when they tried to backtrack from 72nd St, "Nobody told us it was an express", and they'd find themselves right back where they started, at Times Square.
Simon and I had just boarded an announced express at Times Square back on March 15. Out of sheer curiosity, I snuck a peek at the front sign (we were in the lead motor, #9440) and lo and behold, it was ROUND, not Diamond. We then knocked on the T/O's door and informed her of the round sign in place. She gladly stepped out from the cab and immediately put up the Diamond (they still have the old-fashioned cranks in there!), after which she thanked us for pointing out the erroneous bullet.
Wayne.
Good job, Wayne!
We should set up a subway watchdog group!
Misstated signs do tend to annoy me. Peg and I had just gotten on a 2 at Mott yesterday, and its side sign clearly showed 4. One confused passenger about to board asked us what the train was and Peg informed her- she was looking for Lexington and was about to board our 7th Avenue in error; she almost got snagged in the closing doors too.
I did, however, get a chuckle out of the crew that put up the V on the West End train last week. I wish I'd have seen that -I'd have taken a picture of it for sure. My Dad (whose name is V.B.) was amused at the prospect of a V train.
ayne
That's because those side sgins on most of the redbirds still have the hand cranks installed, and that inspires people (myself included) to play with them, as I suspect has been done as long as those signs existed, until the hand cranks were removed from most equipment. I always put the signs back. Some kids may not. Honestly, I've never seen an adult play with the signs, save myself.
-Hank
Several years ago, I used to use a hex key (allen wrench) to look for new letters on signs, and if I saw a , instead of the diamond bullet on the R-68's when they were on the line, I would change it to , knowing that that was a newer sign. But then I heard you could get arrested for this, so I stopped. (I had heard rumors that P, T, U, X and Y were on R-68 replacement signs, but could never confirm this. Then I began hearing about #'s 8-15, but didn't know which cars they were on.)
Now it's up to ***15***? We are sprouting all kinds of new signs!
The Redbirds use an Allen Key of some sort to turn the rolls.
I have dozens of these, including more than a half dozen on my GuitTool, one of these should fit nicely...
Wayne
No, that was the rumor I heard at first; about #15. I have never seen any of these myself.
I often played with them myself. Sometimes I put it back and sometimes I don't. It is all in good fun.....
I was a bad, bad boy when it came to that. I remember getting up in the rear car of a "QJ" (it was empty) and changing the end sign to "KK". Then I signed the rest of the car up the same way; it was October 3, 1969 and we were on our way back from the "MJ" farewell trip. I used to switch signs in the R16s along Queens Boulevard with impunity. I liked "JJ", "MM" and "TT" best. I fiddled with the cranks on the "M" shuttle one snowy day in Dec. 1969, and soon we were on the "MM" train, 57th Street-6 Avenue to Metropolitan Avenue. The poor conductor was scratching his head when we got to Metropolitan.
Conseco has a subway commercial (they're an investment firm) I think it's an R42. It was JUST on (channel 2).
Wayne
R-42? It looked more like an R-62/62A (I think the ad people were going for the cramped IRT look)
I was always divided on whether it was more fun to create your own route when changing the signs (TT to Continental Ave. on an R-16, for example) or just altering the route just a little bit so it was still real enough to confuse people (sending the old N 57th St. express to Astoria)
Say, Wayne, did you ever change a side sign on a slant R-40 back in the good old days?
No I didn't at the time - they held no surprises for me other than "E", "F" and "S".
Wayne
Back in the mid-80s when the 'R' still ran out of Astoria, the R27s and 32s would have absurd readings on their signs, such as (TOP) "205-Concourse";(MIDDLE) "Broad Street"; (BOTTOM) 'SS'. I just couldn't let this go, so I corrected the signs whenever possible. This was before the renovations eliminated the dials. In one instance, an angry conductor stormed into my car and changed the signs back to the INCORRECT reading! I explained that wrong signs could cause people to get lost, and that I was trying to correct them. He would have none of it. "If they don't know what train it is, let 'em ask!"
That pretty much ended my career as a sign policeman. See, even when you have GOOD intentions, it's no good!
That combination certainly takes the cake!
What about the bulkhead destination curtains on the R-27/30s? Chances are the R-32s still had the multicolored route curtains in the destination slots up front.
If you ask me, that conductor had a poor attitude. Isn't he responsible for seeing to it that the train is properly signed up?
Maybe those were the same cars used in The Warriors.
And now, according to this morning's news reports, the conductors won't be announcing the line any more, in the interest of saving time! They have also been told to stop saying "Please", as in "Please stand clear of the closing doors" - this supposedly is a major cause of station delays! (What kind of wacky weed was that consultant smoking?)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No its Door Holders that delay trains.
Agreed! As I said before, what was that consultant smoking?!?!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What ever he was smoking it can't be legal !
After taking an R train this mornign that had some moron holding the door at every stop, The conductor announced 'Stop holding the doors in the 3rd car!' at 45st. They didn't hold the doors the rest of the trip. Of course, knowing where they were now, I'm sure that someone went into the car and vented.
I'm just waiting for a conductor, whose train is being delayed at a major station by door holders, to just snap, and say "Stop holding the #$@% doors, before I come down there and whip your ass!"
-Hank :)
Just a thought...
How many times I was temped to say that! But you must keep your cool and think of Overtime pay.
Yes, you must keep your cool. We have all wanted to tell these passengers to get the hell out of the doors but doing so could get you written up with the possibility of days in the street, lost pay etc, etc.
My point is to keep yourself on a proffessional level. Don't stoop to level of some of the heathens that ride our trains.
Of course, you could say the same thing that is heard on Denver International Airport's trains (when they're running, heh-heh) when someone holds the doors: "Please do not hold the doors. You are delaying the departure of this train." Come to think of it, there was a recording at Macy's which would be played if someone held the elevator doors: "Please keep the doors closed."
Speaking of the V....
There is a photo in New York Subway Cars of a slant R-40 just being delivered from GOH with an orange V sign prominently displayed.
As I said previously, I changed a roll sign once, on a BMT standard. One of its route signs didn't say "14th St. L'c'l", and I set out to remedy the situation, but stopped when I got to the generic "Local" sign. I thought my mother was going to have a stroke.
My poor Mom got shanghaied into taking a day trip with me on Dec. 27, 1969. It was a Subway Snow Day, eight inches sat on the ground. We went from Jamaica-168th Street to the "M" Shuttle and on to the PATH and Newark Trolley. When we got to Myrtle-Broadway, a lovely train of R7s and R9s was waiting there, still wearing a crown of snow. Nobody seemed to be aboard, so I decided we were an "MM" train. I reviewed the entire roll, then set it to "MM", as previously described. I had so much fun, I did the entire train in this manner.
Wayne
I agree. The 7 express should have a different number. I prefer that they use 8 because 7 and 11 sound similar, but 8 is green and since the only other purple number on the R-62/62A curtains is 11, they might as well use it (we've already skipped 8, I guess we'll be skipping 10 now, too). Just get ready for all the jokes about a 7/11 line. ("The 7/11 line? Can I get a Slurpee on the platform?)
I was rewatching my French Connection movie on Tuesday March 23 with the NYC Subway as a major costar. By using the slow motion on my remote control i found the car numbers on the following subway scenes. In the El train chase scene the lead car number was #4572.
In the one where Popye Doyle and Frog One are playing hide and seek the lead car in the first train that pulls out the number of the car is #6671. In the second set of trains that pulls in to the station the number of the first 2 cars are #6548 and #6609.
If anyone else has the French Connection Movie, have you seen the above car numbers also?
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I have seen all of the above, and have noted as well the incorrectly signed #4572 running on the B line with its natural N signs. (#4550 thru #4599 had N rolls - the B cars were #4600 thru #4699, and also had A and AA on the rolls).
Now, who's got an eagle eye and can spot the unit number of the R32 sitting on the express track at 62nd Street station? I'm not even sure if it is visible.
That was a great chase scene, one of the all time best.
Wayne
there never was a side view of the R32 at 62nd street in which the train plows into, we'll never know the number of that train
I thought there was a brief instant when Doyle climbs down from the "wreckage" where you saw the sides of the two trains; I could be wrong.
Wayne
Doyle (Gene Hackman) never goes near the 'wreck'. He sees Pierre Nicholi, from the street, climb down between the lead car and its mate. He then greets him at the bottom of the station stairway.
It really has been a long time since I saw that, so please pardon my confusion (and memory lapse) and thanks for the clarification. :o)
Wayne
Speaking of R-32s, they're sprinkled throughout the chase sequence. For instance, when Doyle first reaches the platform at Bay-50th St., two horn blasts can be heard; then the Manhattan-bound train which appears to be pulling into the station is made up of R-32s. In the next scene, shot on the Manhattan-bound platform, the train is suddenly transformed into a consist of R-42s. As Hackman chases the train in the Pontiac LeMans, the R-42s are visible in the overhead shots; however, as Hackman takes the turn from Stillwell Ave. to 86th St., just as that horrific crash takes place, the train up above consists of R-32s. R-32s can also be seen passing in the opposite direction during interior shots on the train itself.
And, yes, I also spotted those same three R-17s in the shuttle sequence. I wonder if 6609 still has any of that silver paint beneath its present original maroon livery.
does anyone know where i can find the history on gcs for a report for school (grade 4) ? i need who built it, when it was built, etc.
thanks,
gary
I'm sure the library has all the answers. And please--it's Grand Central Terminal. Grand Central Station is either a subway station or a post office.
Grand Central Station i believe is a p.o. box for mail.
Like Gary Wengeroff said for the trains its Grand Central Terminal.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Oh, if I only had a dollar for every time someone has pointed out the GCStation vs GCTerminal issue here or on the usenet.
Yes, rail buffs can nitpick...
Gary: A very good book is "Grand Central" by William D Middleton.Library of Congress Catalog No 77-24507. Perhaps your local library could obtain it for you. Also call the Metro-North Railroad,Commuter Relations Dept at 212-340-2144 and explain your need. They might be able to send you some info.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I own a small GE switcher that is missing some electrical equipment. As I understand it, NYC subway cars have 32-36 volts on the low voltage side- Perfect-- now where can I go to purchase material from cars which have been or are being scrapped. I prefer parts of GE manufacture but Westinghouse or other makes are just fine. Thank You
Check out the MTA webpage - they sell surplus material.
The CTA finally fielded a solid eight-car train of rehabbed 2600 cars on Thursday, March 25th. It was supposed to go into service on Monday, March 8th.
Anyway, the word I got from member at last nights (3/26/99) CERA meeting is that the train was broken up on Friday and rehabbed cars are running intermixed with unrehabbed cars.
Some said there were problems with the train, others said it is difficult to keep a solid consist. The real reason for breaking up the train, as I couldn’t get a consensus opinion or find anyone who really knew, is unknown.
Anyway this news is for the small percentage of Chicago 'L' fans out there.
Hey, I live near Chicago in the Western Suburbs and am I big fan of the L, please post all the news you have!!!
Anway, these are the cars that broke down in the January snow storm, correct?
Also I heard on the news that it will take 2 years to rehab all the cars in this series that have been damaged or have the chance to be by the snow. If this is true, this means that CTA could have more problems again next winter, that really stinks!
Again, any news you have I would appreciate if you would post it.
BJ
The cars were scheduled to be rehabbed before the snow. The problems were due to the fact that the snow was light and dry and got sucked into the air intakes for cooling the electrical equipment. Normal Chicago snow does not cause this type of a problem
Perhaps the rehabbed cars are being used on the ends of the trains to take advantae of the full width cabs?
I am going into the city Wed. I will ask around.
[The cars were scheduled to be rehabbed before the snow. The problems were due to the fact that the snow was light and dry and got sucked into the air intakes for cooling the electrical equipment.]
The rehab is taking place off property at GEC-Alsthom in Hornell. The reason the cars are being rehabbed is that they've reached their mid-life, not because of the snow.
I hear they will operate in full trains when they enter service. Maybe tomorow maybe not?? Let me know if you see them
Hello,
In 1977, due to the excessive "schreeching" noise from the trains along the WEST END curve out of Bay 50th towards Coney Island and trains turning into the yard off the line towards Manhattan, a local citizen formed a coalition known as the BIG SCREECHERS.
(this is not a joke)
Anyway, he was successful in getting media coverage for his plight. How I wish I had the video of all of it as Eyewitness News did a story as did Channel 9 news at the time. Anyway, the TA installed this grease or lubricant dispenser to help cut down on the friction of the wheels on the curve tracks. It was known as a "noise abatement" remedy, similar to what is done with planes landing and taking off.
Anyone know anymore about this or if the BIG SCREECHERS is still alive? I laugh everytime I think about it as the head guy had T-Shirts made up and everything. BIG SCREECHER VISA CARDS and beach towels should be issued any day now.....
LOL
Oh..I needed a good laugh...
HK
You should have heard this 5 this morning coming northbound into Mott Avenue [149/Concourse], led by #8723...this one qualified for a Platinum "Big Screechers" VISA(tm) card. Sing, Redbird, Sing! A Banshee scream if I have ever heard one, one of the best in quite some time.
BTW - they are doing a good job on wheel noise on PATH. Even the tightest turns don't produce that much wheel noise. Thank the track or wheel grinders, or the lube dispensers, or the track sprayers; whatever they did, it worked.
I actually enjoy wheel noise.
Wayne
It can be a memorable sound! It unfortunately also is a mechanical problem in that the sreeching is produced by either flange contacting the running rail as the train goes thru the curve - when the curve is very tight. This wears the flange down; I'm sure there is a minimum width at which point the wheel "tire" is replaced (that portion of the wheel that actually contacts the rail), or the flange gets to be a knife edge - literally; and has the capability of not tracking a reverse switch point and causing the switch to split. Slow speed and using the automatic oilers really does help.
Yeah, those screeches approach a B above the treble staff...
That's the true IRT screech note, the "B". I have also heard some cars, while singing away at "B" below high "C" throw in a "D" (two above middle "C", next to top line of staff) as the the flanges grated against the tracks. The Redbirds we saw on the #5 as they ground their way into Mott Avenue did this perfectly, esp. #7776 and #7777, #7880 and #7881. #8723 and #8722 were nothing but "B". That is music to my ears.
Wayne
I'll stick to the moaning, groaning, grunting, wailing, singing, and howling spur-cut bull and pinion gears of those immortal cars of yesteryear, the R-1/9s, from about E above middle C and higher. That's my idea of music to my ears. I will say this much: the screeching sounds are intriguing to me, and I do think about them. Know what else I get a kick out of? The sounds of a train passing over a switch, both set straight ahead and for diverging. Scissor switches are even better.
Here's a bulb what just went off - an R6 mix on the "EE" northbound out of Cortlandt Street. I'm at the (open) rear door of #1167, with #1206 right behind. These cars didn't screech much - they gnashed, rumbled and squeaked. But you could hear the bull gears growling away as the cars whiplashed around the "S". NB. The TRIPLEX did a perfect reproduction of this last Oct.
Wayne
The "THE BIG SCREECHERS" were founded by a gentleman who lived in an apartment building that overlooked the Stillwell Avenue el. He was a colorful guy that got a lot of attention. Believe it or not, they are apparently still around 22 years later and he is still king of the Screechers. Check out this URL -
http://www.citizensnyc.org/ERD%20OnLine/ERD-98WEB_ENVIRONTA.htm
I have a Daily news article dating back to 1977 on Mr Santamaria and the B line. It also discussed raining debris on New Utrecht Avenue. The decibel level on the B train at that time exceeded that of jet engines at JFK.
--Mark
For the last 5 days there have a been runs with people on them testing the new route that is supposed to join the 4 for effectiveness. I saw an 8 on one of them. They were dong the plan for the new route. My father went on one the expresses. The train went express from 149 to Burnside then Express to Moshlou Pkwy. It look look we might be seeing the new route making it debut.
Christopher Rivera
Also which number was assigned to be the line to run with the 4 becuase my father saw an 8.
For the last 5 days there have a been runs with people on them testing the new route that is supposed to join the 4 for effectiveness. I saw an 8 on one of them. They were dong the plan for the new route. My father went on one the expresses. The train went express from 149 to Burnside then Express to Moshlou Pkwy. It looks we might be seeing the new route making it debut.
Christopher Rivera
Also which number was assigned to be the line to run with the 4 becuase my father saw an 8.
It will probably be the train. Will the operate to Brooklyn or terminate @ Bowling Green with the ? Or maybe they will use the if it going to be rush hour service.
This past week there was a G.O. in effect midday for track work. Northbound 4 trains ran on the middle track from 149st to south of Mosholu. Making stops at Burnside, Mosholu, and then Woodlawn.
The 54th/Cermak (Doulglas) Branch of the CTA Blue line may be history.
The CTA just stated about a week ago that it will only survive possibly 5 more years.
They said if they don't get the money to renovate the line ( like the green line) the will be forced to shut it down due to safety and slow speeds. Much of the Elevated portion has a top speed of 15 m.p.h. where trains should be going 55 m.p.h.
I do belive that the CTA will, FINALLY, get the money. Mayor Daley and Governor George Ryan are going to Washington D.C. to talk with the feds about the money. The CTA has been very neglected with funding, but I do belive that this trip will be successfull.
What do you think?
BJ
The State of Illinois hasn't yet come up with the matching funds needed to use the money the Feds have already approved for projects such as extending platforms on the Brown line to accommodate 8 car trains. So why do they expect more money they won't be able to use if the state isn't willing to come up with its share?
[The State of Illinois hasn't yet come up with the matching funds needed to use the money the Feds have already approved for projects such as extending platforms on the Brown line to accommodate 8 car trains. So why do they expect more money they won't be able to use if the state isn't willing to come up with its share?]
--
The CTA is in deep s _ _ t with the Chicago riders in the south and west sides of the city due to DEEP cuts in service in 1997 & early.
There will be a deal with the state to come up with their share of the money, and the two projects WILL be approved. First, the Blue Line Douglas Branch serves a large Hispanic community, Hispanics BTW are friendly with Mayor Daley unlike African-Americans, and the 8-car platform for Brown Line will be approved because it is desperately needed.
Our new Governor, George Ryan, is still trying to "work" with the City of Chicago and Mayor Daley.
I agree with Ed, the State will come up with the money. They were suppost to approve or disapprove of it in the Spring Session of the Illinois Government. Do you know when this is??
I find it weird that it just turned Spring a few days ago and the State hasn't discussed the issue of the Blue & Brown Lines Renovation's, but the tribune article said Mayor Daley and Governor Ryan are already going to Washington to strike a deal with the feds to pay for the entire project!
Maybe the state doesn't even want to pay it's smaller percentage of the deal and wants the feds to pay for all of it or atleast try before they discuss it in the Spring session!
The people on the West Side have suffered, but just need to get used to changes. The Forest Park Branch of the Blue Line which is only about 1 & 1/2 miles north of the Douglas branch of the Blue Line runs 24-7, every 8-12 minutes during rush hours, and every ten minutes weekends during day-time hours ( 7am-7pm) and every 15 except overnight, which is once an hour between 1am-5am.
My point is, they don't have it that bad. They have to spend an extra ten minutes on a north/south bus route on weekends and pay $.30 cents for a transfer. Big deal, the Congress (Forest Park) is much faster, runs at top speed between stations (55mph) instead of 15mph and stops at major streets. If I lived in that area I would rather take the bus/Congress L combination it would proabaly be almost faster or the same and not in danger of falling down.
I do believe that the line should be renovated though, on weekdays traffic is really bad and busses stink.
The Green line also runs everyday of the week until 1am and starts again at 5 (7 on week-ends).
People are just complaining because they have to walk an extra block or two to the bus or take the bus to the train instead of just the train.
I've walked many times with my father from Central/Roosevelt to the Austin Station on the Blue Line Forest Park Branch. At one time there was a stop at Central, but I'm glad they abandoned it and a few others in the city, the trains should only stop at major streets.
BJ
I am trying to locate certain parts from NYC Subway Cars. Does anybody know who scraps this equipment so that I can get parts I need for my locomotive which uses the same comtactors as do the subway cars
My registered E-Mail address shown is INCORRECT. the correct address is jjbx@twcny.rr.com
My registered E-Mail address shown is INCORRECT. the correct address is jjbx@twcny.rr.com ..
[I am trying to locate certain parts from NYC Subway Cars. Does anybody know who scraps this equipment so that I can get parts I need for my locomotive which uses the same comtactors as do the subway cars]
Some company called Naporano's in New Jersey, Jersey City I think. Contacting the Transit Authority directly for parts also might be worth a try.
Try http://www/mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/materiel/index.html
for surplus materials available for sale by NYC Transit.
Wayne
Yesterday I was at the Riverside T-stop waiting for an inbound train. However, an outbound train came to Riverside, and it was the type 8!! I did not see the inside (it was not making a return trip), but the outside was nice and shiny, but kinda weird because its thinner than the type 7s/Boeing-Vertol LRVs, and the teal/silver pattern is different too. Someone who was taking photographs (perhaps it was you, Todd) told me that the type 8 makes only two runs a day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon Monday through Saturday. Hopefully all Boston fans will get a ride on it soon!!
A quick note to Todd: I've replied to your last 2 messages using the glickman@MIT.edu address, but the mail has been returned to me. If you have a different e-mail adress, or have another way to solve this problem, please let me know....thanks. -Nick
Nick,
Glad you saw the type 8s! I've heard they're "all electric," that is, without an air system -- as some of the PCCs were.
As far as you email is concerned, don't use capital letters. Many systems are case sensitive.
I actually don't think I used caps, the messages that got returned were ones that I had used the "reply-to" address from...but maybe it was caps.-Nick
WhileI have some air brake manuals for equipment such as the "Newtran" brake, I don't have any manuals about the other systems on a typical subway car. Where can I acquire them??
What manuals are you looking for?
I would like some operating manuals which ones do you have? I found a M-1 and M-3 manual on ebay but these are far and few
Peg and I were travelling the 6 today, during the 12pm-1pm hour and noticed something unusual (at least to my eyes) - REDBIRDS! At least 80% of the Lex Local was Redbird. I even saw one consist that looked from its unit numbers to have come from the 2. I ususally see these R29s and R36s during the rush hours and maybe during the midday hours Mon-Fri. I almost never see Redbirds on the 6 on the weekends - today they were out in force. Only two R62A consists were spotted out of ten total; the other eight were all Redbird. Just wondering - are the R62As vacationing? Perhaps they're getting their drawbar treatments.
One more thing - a number of R29s - 8628-29, 8680-81, 8580-81, 8590-91 , 8586-87, and especially 8574-8575 are absolute rustbuckets. 8575 had huge holes at the door jambs and under the windows. Even the number plaques were rusted. Someone call the Bondo Squad for these Birds, please!
Wayne
rumor has it that R-62a will go to the number 7 line and redbirds will go to 6 line. 62's have been tested on the 7 line in the early 80's. when the 142/142a's arrive Corona shops won't have to deal with the bull once the new equip arrives. 142/142a's will more than likely be at home on the 2/5 since the new shop at the East will be there to care and feed the new children. Yeah the redbirds love them as I do are headed for the scrap heap in the not too distant future ...
Just a few questions;
1. Recently on the #2, while approching either the 42nd street station or 34th, i heard a pretty loud hum, and when I looked out the window, I could faintly see a wall of fans (some on, some off) operating. They were so powerful, I felt their vibration. Where these fans always there, or did they just install them? I had never observed these fans in the past.
3. What is going on with the #5 late-night weekend service? While waiting at 125th for a #5, about three #4's passed by, two worktrains passed by (both electric), but no #5. [Well, I just decided to take the 4 and transfer in the Bronx to the #2, took me awhile to figure that out but it was late and I wasn't thinking:0.]
-Also, at 125th, I felt and herd a humming/vibration sound which was coming from the lower level. When I ran down the stairs to see what it was, all I cought was the back of what apreared to be a diesal work train, because after accelerating slowly out of the station, it zoomed off very quickly into the tunnel. I also was meet by the smell of what I though to be diseal fumes. I never knew that diseals could work in tunnels, I would think that would be prohibited due to the fumes and the confined space. Can anyone shed some light on this?
Well, after getting off at Bronx Park East, while walking with a family member on the platform, every light we went under shut off. While we were walking all the lights in our path simply shut off one by one. After walking past them they would turn back on. (Some of them). Talk about wierd. What would make the platform lights do such a thing?
Thanks,
Thomas
Where's question #2?
You must've been coming southbound. I usually hear it northbound, just before 50st and again around 72st area. Sounds like those WWII movie airfields...I'd assume that it's a ventalation system. I'd also assume it's new, because the amount of time I've spent on this line, I never heard it until recently.
-Hank
defective lights on platform at Bronx Park East and ventilation fans
around 42 st
let me amend my earlier message
defective lights on Bx Pk east pltforms
ventilation fans most usually are noisy anyhow
The platform bulbs going on & off is a sign the bulbs need to be replaced. If not done soon, you will have one dark station.
What the devil is the difference between a diamond and a bullet? Does one mean express and the other local? I hate to ask these dumb questions but I have been away from the city for many years and I don't remember any diamonds or bullets existing before I left.
Thanks for enlightening me. Karl B.
A "bullet" (or round) sign generally means full-time (or at least daytime) service; a "diamond" indicates rush hour only service.
There are two notable exceptions to this: the Z and 9 rush-hour-only skip stop services carry round signs even though they are rush hours only. I think they reserve the diamond signs for routes that have both rush-hour special and regular service along the same line, like the 7 Flushing express (diamond) and Flushing local (bullet). The Z and 9 run only during rush hours and don't have regular-service counterparts, so they were given round signs. This reasoning is a little confusing, to say the least.
Wayne
Wayne, Thanks for your response. That indeed does sound confusing. I guess that it's Murphy's Law that there has to be an exception to everything. I really think we had it easier in my day when all we had to worry about was the color of the two lights on the top of the first car. If I understand this correctly, my old train to Jamaica would more than likely display a J in a diamond instead of two green lights. I realize that the lights are not even there anymore on the current equipment.
Karl B.
Only the Redbird IRT cars (R26-28-29-33-36) have the end marker lights and I'm not really sure if they are still used for their original purposes. They took them off of the IND/BMT R32 and R38 cars when they overhauled them in the late 80s.
Wayne
The IRT Redbirds still have marker lights but they always display a red-red aspect. They are not used to convey route information anymore.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Does the same hold for the PATH PA cars too??? Just curious......
PATH still uses marker lights for their intended purpose.They are B-B 33-HOB, G-G WTC-HOB, R-R WTC-NWK, Y-Y 33-JSQ,B-Y 33-HOB-JSQ. They did use R-Y for the WTC-JSQ short turns when they used to operate.
Larry,RedbirdR33
> They did use R-Y for the WTC-JSQ short turns when they used to
> operate.
I recently wrote to the PA to ask for this service back. The morning trains from Nwk are extremely crowded by the time they get to Grove St. & Exchange Place. How long ago did this service cease?
-Dave
Dave.Starting with the Aldene plan a/o 4/30/67 all trains ran between HT-NWK (later WTC-NWK of course) at all times.The service guide of4/28/74 shows a WTC-JSQ LCL on Sundays only from about 10a-10p on a 15 min headway combined with WTC-NWK LCL also on a 15 min headway. This lasted until 10/27/85 when the JSQ shorturns were eliminated with all trains going to NWK on a 30 min headway.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, and they also put in those stupid, illegible pixel signs on the R-32s and R-38s. At least the Redbirds still have the good old route and destination roller curtains on the bulkheads.
Sometimes technology is too good a thing. The electronic route indicators are fine when there working but if a few bulbs burn out they become unreadable. The old style curtain route signs never had this problem. Also there are simply too many readings. I havn't counted them but I thing the F train alone has over 30 readings, is every station a terminal? I feel sorry for a train crew with limited time trying to decypher which reading bet identifies their run. Its like handing someone a copy of the bible,telling them to find the ten commandments and do it in 30 seconds.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What would you do if the signs gave wrong information all the time like "No Passengers", destinations not on that line, destination which is the origin of the train, unreadable messages, etc. The personnel on the stations tell you not to read the side signs and read the card board signs in the front of the train.
You have no reason to complain, buddy.
Side: There used to be a very logical and systematic way of train identification, it was based on using an upper roll sign for the northbound destination,a middle sign for the southbound destination and a lower sign giving the route information. It provided a great deal of flexibility and the only real problem came about when some mischeivious or curious youngsters turned up different destination signs but this was corrected by the GOH which eliminated dials that could be turned by hand.(Of course none of use on this website ever did those kind of things but we knew if people who did.)
The R-40's with their one-piece roll signs kind of screwed up this logical system. I don't know what cardboard signs you are referring to.
PS. The name is Larry,not Buddy.I assume your first name is Side.
I talking about a system other than New York.
That's not the way it's done The F crews have 4 or 5 codes which they must use. They do not have the master list os the 1,041 codes. That list is at control center. If a diversion is necessary, I assume that the crews are given the appropriate codes. After all, how many times did we anticipate using G Crosstown to Bedford/Nostrand ?
Ten Commandments? They're in the book of Exodus in the Old Testament. Chapter 20, I think.
Getting back to signs, I like the ones on the R-44s and R-46s. Theirs is more of an LCD-type display. Even the ones on the R-40s, R-42s, R-62s, and - gulp - R-68s are OK. Whoever came up with the idea of those retarded pixel route signs on the R-32s and R-38s should be tarred and feathered.
Steve: Originally there were fifteen but Moses dropped one of the tablets while coming down Mount Sinai.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The end signs on the R38 are BIGGER and have more and larger dots, with a flourescent yellow instead of just yellow. And they are much more visible than those on the R32. Different manufacturer, I suppose. The rubber frames around them make a difference. Look at the R32GE and compare.
Why can't they make the side signs on the R44/R46 display in the appropriate route color: i.e. Blue, Yellow, Light Green, Orange?
If they can shrink a 9-GIG disk to the size of a deck of cards, they can surely find a way to do this.
Wayne
I think some colored LEDs - Blue, specifically - are still very expensive. Give the semiconductor people some slack - they've developed a lot of cool stuff, but the laws of physics can be tough!
Those signs are LCD, (Liquid Crystal Diode, as opposed to LED, Lighted Electric Diode, if I remember my electronics correctly.)
LED come in Green, Red, Amber, InfraRed and Bipolar (Red or Green depending on polarity, amber if you switch the polarity fast enough) cheap. They only recently developed LEDs that emit white light. Blue isn't cheap yet. There are, to my knowledge, no other colors available.
LCD color depends on the single color of theliquid pool, and the polarity. Generally, it can be white/clear on black, or black on and background.
-Hank
The variable message LCD signs used on the R44/46 are not too bad.
They are more or less legible from a wide angle. I'd prefer that
they have 2 lines in addition to the route letter like the R62
(mechanical curtain) signs. New Yorkers are always in a hurry, and
that extra 3 seconds waiting for the other part of the message to
scroll in can be critical! I'd also like the route letter to be
color coded.
The R32/38 end sign was a big mistake and hopefully won't be
replicated. It gives one no useful information until one is
within 5 feet of the sign, and sometimes not even then.
IMHO marker lights should be resurrected and tied in with the
computer-controlled electronic sign system. There was no better
system for discerning the route and destination of an oncoming
train from a distance. It may seem silly, but for a seasoned
straphanger, knowing what train that is as early as possible
is vital! Yes, the color codes are arbitrary and not documented
to the customer, but you'd be surprised how conditioned
response works. Customers who use a route often quickly learned
what the marker lights meant. Of course, crews got increasingly
sloppy about setting them up after the first non-marked endowed
equipment began arriving, and just as apathy about making graduated
stops was addressed by reducing braking effort, so was apathy about
correct marker light trimming addressed by removing or
passivating the markers.
If you're referring to rush hour, skip-stop service, you'd be looking for a J or Z, depending on where you wanted to get off. In the case of Crescent St., you'd be in luck, as both trains stop there during rush hours.
The marker lights did provide a simple means of train identification, and many people became familiar with them. I have some friends out here in metro Denver who were born and raised in Brooklyn. The gentleman was a regular Brighton rider, while his wife used to take the West End all the time. We got into a subway discussion recently, and she admitted that she used to look at the marker lights as a train would enter, say, 34th St. (she used to work at Macy's back in the 50s)
Would the J be a diamond and the Z a bullet?
Doesn't the have a diamond for the Express?
It sure does.
That's the exception to the Diamond-means-rush-hour-service rule. The 6 runs am/pm express service all day, and uses a diamond 6 (with the word 'Express' below it)
-Hank
What is the difference between the overhaul R44 and R46 controllers? When I ride in the front and I watch the T/O I notice that on R46's the operator can put the controller in full service while the train is going fast and release it and the train comes to a nice stop while on the R44 it seems as these controllers are very sensitive and that this cannot be attempted. Also on standard config are notice many train operators practice this also putting the brake in full service and releasing the controller while in motion and have always wondered is this a violation of operating rules?
It practical terms, the R-46 does a much better job of blending dynamic and pneumatic brake than does the R-44. Therefore, when the operator pulls a full service brake on a R-46, the brake will be more consistant throughout the stop than that of an R-44. He/she is better able to gauge the stopping distance and take one full service application and pretty much hit their mark. R-44s brake too radically in dynamic brake so it's necessary (I've heard) to request a small brake at first and pull more later in the stop.
There is nothing that I can find in the rule book about letting go of the master controller handle before the train is stopped. However, it's likely a violation of some 'school car instruction' and in any event, it's not a very good operating technique
in all situations train enters station t/o sees what he/she has for brakes by taking a nip on brakes at some point in the station depending on speed and grade(fast stations) and adjusts braking for for speed and distance from car stop marker. using full service never guarantees a train will stop accurately it, is used near the end of braking sequence.
In my case i can use 30-40 psi of service brake to control a train for station stop and 20-30 psi for the stop.
but the way that is up to the individual to FEEL that their train is under control.
It IS in the rule book as well. The rule book says the train operator MUST have CONTROL of his train at ALL TIMES! If someone jumps to the roadbed how are you going to place the train in emergency if your hand is not in contact with the controller? In addition you are violating school car instructions by not also having your right hand on the brake valve handle as an emergency brake application must not be initiated by using the deadman.
Ah, again, what rule #
No such rule other then Rule 39: (Catch All Rule, love it when someone jumps in front of the train and violates ya on this one)
(a) A Train Operator is prohibited from engaging in any conduct that results in a collison of the train he or she is operating with any person, car, bumping block or any other object on the trackway.
A minor one:
Rule 98 (Train Operator)
(l) They (T/O) must use care in starting and stopping the train to avoid sudden jerking.
And I repeat, after reviewing rules #39 and #98, there is no specific prohibition in the rule book prohibiting taking a full service brake and letting go of the controller handle as long as the train comes to a "relatively smooth stop" with the conductor on his or her boards. Do I like the practice? - NO ! Do I think it's a safe way to operate? - NO! This practice may, in fact be covered by bulletin or by written school car instruction. However, like so many 'rules' in effect within the NYCT, they are based in the contractual language of "past practice" and found no where in writing in the book of rules.
What do I have to do babysit you Steve? The rule number is 98g. In particular pay attention to the last sentence "approach all STOP signals, trains ahead, junctions and terminals with their trains under full control. Tell me how do you suppose the train is under "FULL CONTROL" when the T/Os hand is somewhere else. Also for those crewroom lawyers the word "stop signal" is not specific, therefore your stop signal would be in the case of the junction a home signal; in the case of the terminal the marker signal and any station stop the appropriate stop car marker. Although the language may not say that the hand does not have to be on the controller T/Os have lost to arbitration due to the wording of 98G. If you think otherwise try it out then let me know what happens with the TSS
You know, harry, I don't think that I need to be "baby sat". I DO, however, choose to hold the high ground, even with an obvious " DIM BULB such as your self and discuss only the issue at hand. You have taken the very last sentence of the rule and make it seem as though it is the total thrust of the rule. The thrust of 98g is:
"At any time when passing a signal indicating proceed, prepare to stop at the next signal The train operator must govern the speed of their trains so that there is no possibility of their running past the next signal, should it indicate 'STOP'. They must reduce speed to conform with Speed Limit Signs and other instructions before reaching curves and continue at the prescribed speed until the entire train has rounded the curve. .......
Then the last sentence (that you quoted) which only mentions Terminals, harry in passing. It does not mention gap stations. Until a very few years ago a motorman would come into a station on the post, pull a full service brake at the boards and make a perfect 10-car stop. I oersonally know TSSs who have done this and still talk about it. I don't disagree that train operators may have lost at arbitration but not solely based on 98g. It's likely because they screwed up in some way and put half a car out of the station or stopped short and the C/R opened without observing the boards first.
By baby sit I meant that I had to get YOU the rule number. Just explain to me how a train is under FULL CONTROL without a hand on the deadman. If someone jumps before the ten car marker and you didn't place the valve in emergency you would be subject to SEVERE penalties.
I didn't mean to start a argument here but if a TSS or any supervisor writes a violation must he include all these rule numbers or can he just write the violation in plain language.
And what position to train dispatcher and tower operators have in the supervisory roles?
In order to bring charges against an employee, two components are necessary. Both are equally important.
First: There must be a clear statement of the facts of the alleged violation of the rules. This must include the circumstances including dates, times and witnesses. Obvious but frequently not done.
Second: The appropriate rules, contract section, policy instruction, bulletin, etc. must be referred to. A supervisor can say an employee violated rules by doing 'X'and document the infraction meticulously but if he can't show the corresponding 'violated rule' in writing, he'd likely lose the case at arbitration.
Train Dispatcher/Yard Dispatcher, Assistant train Dispatcher and Train Service Supervisor are supervisory titles in RTO. Tower Operator is an hourly title.
I think the key word for a supvr is "patience". As a Teamster I could just scream & yell & write it up at the spir of the moment, but in mngt. you need to count 10, then count 10, then count 10 again ... because if you don't cross all you Ts & dott all the Is, you loose. If you loose it causes even more trouble.
Also, a guy/gail that does something wrong on purpose will likely do it again and again, so if they do it once & get away with, that wouldn't be the worst thing to happen.
Mr t__:^)
Look, we all know that there are lots of rules that are vague.The bottom line is protect yourself.You ask one supervisor his/her interpretation of a rule/bulletin and get one answer,ask another supervisor the same question, you get a different one. For example, one TSS will tell you that there is a 5 mph cushion on a posted speed limit.Another will say that you must do no more than what's posted.
You are correct but as one who actually hears Step I disciplinary cases, I will readily dismiss the charges if the case is not properly made. I will never sustain charges if the supervisor either fails to cite the correct rule or contract provision or if he fails to clearly state the facts.
The fact is that TSSs are supervisors and if you rely on their interpretation of the rules, you will lose. Case in point. A manager friend of mine was recently charged (albiet unofficially) with the violation of a rule (by a person in labor relations). While no charges have been formally made yet, he was called in to defend his actions. I did some checking about the alleged rule violation and found out that the rule cited by the person in labor relations, did not exist. Without being too specific, the rule simply did not apply to the circumstances. The bottom line really is, know your rules, know your contract and cover your ass accordingly.
Thats right Steve, thats what MTA should be changed to CYA. Its applys to EVERYONE that works for NYCT. From the lowliest hourly to the VP of any division!
Unfortunatly it's the truth. It also depends on who you know down here that can SYA.
putting brakes into full service and releasing master controller while the train is in motion is a violation of rules. Train operator is to have train under control at all times. using full service doesn't always mean the train will stop where intended. The T/O probably has the train under control and train will stop where its supposed to otherwise if the train slides past the end of station or into a signal the train wasn't under full control. Full service also isn't maximum braking, emrgency position is.
I can't disagree about the first part of your statement However, in what rule is that stated? As for the second part of your statemnet, I can and do disagree. Decelleration rates in full service is greater than in emergency on all contracts.
full service braking from a speed above 15mph also includes dynamic braking where an emergency brake which uses solely pneumatic brake force at maximum psi doesn't always stop a train as fast. Emergency application of brakes also cuts electrical power to traction motors through the group switch box.
I'm not quite sure what your point is. Actually, full service brake gives you a quicker stop than emergency does for several reasons including the fact that there is less skidding involved. The true advantage of Emergency brake is that it reduces the reaction time needed to apply it. Actually, before Williamsburg Bridge, emergency brake was 3 MPH/Sec. and Full service was 3.2 MPH/Sec. Since then, they have been virtually made the same.
Does anyone have a list of new routes the NYCTA may be planning for the future?
Thanks
In the NY Post Sunday March 28, page 22, are two articles on the trains, and one article on buses.
1st article is straphangers gives the A train a big fat ''F''.
2nd article is TA unveils on-timely report for train delays.
3rd article is that the TA ''cracks'' down on broken buses.
After all the good folks of SubTalk read the articles, your thought are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I was reading the NY Post report that On Time Performance has gone up.
I don't see how that could be possible. Every Morning I would get to South Ferry at least 5 to 10 Minutes late and return to Van Courtlandt late. WHY, Because of Door Holding. Every Morning at 137 St,116 St,103 St,96 St,86 St,72 St, 66 St,59 St, Times Sqaure. This is every morning. Times Sqaure Tower alway ask " 08:52 VC where did you lose your time at".(Where did I become late)I say the same thing. Then they say " Ok take it to 34 ST followed by 14 St and Chambers." Then more door holding at 34 ST. People ask why are we going Express. I say where 8 Minutes late. Then they say your always late. Ofcause most trains experance door Holding problems during peak hour. That one of the reasons for late trains. I average a 1 Minute at stations. At 86 st and 79 St sometimes 2 Minutes at a stop. So I can't agree that late trains have gone down unless accorting to TA I'm one of the few late trains which I don't beleave to be so. I agree more with Ghost Rider.
I feel the solution is to add the running times by at least 5 Minutes for peak Hours. The No.1 Line should be 1 Hour running time from VCP TO South Ferry all times exept Midnights.
Ok I have changed my name from David Foster R 26 to Pelham Bay Dave R 36. I will still keep my currect e mail address. I just sounds better.
And your unit number would be #9506 maybe...I was on that one yesterday, along with a bunch of other ex-Flushing cars and Mainline R36s. It was Redbird City on the 6 yesterday, it looked like they were ALL out there.
Wayne
Yes I rode on those Redbirds Saturday Night. I felt like I was in dream land. I will be back on the No.6 Line in May if I can pick a job there. I rode car No. 9497. But I once operated 9522 which had car 9506 in it and it was a good train. Thanks for the Idea !
Hi Dave. Can you confirm that the ex-Flushing line cars on the #6 begin with car 9484? Thanks.I know in 1996,for a brief amount of time,the #7 had 9490-about 9513.
I'm not sure but there are lots of R 36's out there on the good old No.6 Pelham Line. When I go back to work on the No.6 I'll let you know. I was just was joy rideing after my tour on the No.1 Broadway Line which has R 62a's.
I have spotted R36WF with unit numbers as low as 9480 on the 6. That would yield eight ten-car consists of R36, both WF and ML. They also run in mixed company, WF cars in the same train as ML.
Wayne
yesterday the bridge got stuck in the open position frocing a halt in NJT and Amtrak Service to New York and From New York South and West. I was at Newark Penn yesterday when first the train was late (as usual)m the delayed due to bridge being open and then "delayed due to bridge being stuck open". They finally at 5:30 got a train originating at Newark to both Long Branch and Trenton-(one each.) The transit police wree called to keep order on the platform and a steady stream of NJT and Amtrak officials were coming and going from the stationmasters office.
Now the editorial-- As usual the handling was not what it could have been. There should be a standing policy to allow free-will transfer (or use of) bus instead of train in the event of a delay of 30 minutes or more or expected to last one hour or more. Amtrak and NJT should demand fundign for a bridge to replace the portal bridge. It has been stated on many posts and news reports that the bridge needs replacing and they want to replace the bridge. Call the senators, representatives, Trenton- demand the funds for a new bridge. I see the day when the bridge will eb out 2-3 days!
The problem with replaceing bridges, especially movable bridges, is that they usually can't be replaced where they sit. Usually, an additional bridge is built, and the line or road re-routed. Usually, this means what was previously a straight-arrow line needs to have some curves, and that slows the service, and requires, in many cases, grade changes.
Of course, they could always build the superstructure portions, and float in a new bridge deck. This would probably require a weekend service disruption.
-Hank
OK. Build it at the same time as the second river tunnel. Add one new track to either side of the existing bridge and then remove the existing bridge and replace it making one four track structure. Even several weekend closures would be better- at least we'd know there was no train service and they could plan to turn the trains at Newark or MMC (Meadows Maintenance Complex.)
Does anyone know where I could get plans to some of the larger station complexes in the system (Times Square, Fulton St./Broadway-Nassau, Atlantic Av./Pacific St. to name a few). These stations have interested me for a long time and I am very curious as to exactly how they are layed out.
Mike
Peg and I were at WTC yesterday admiring the R32s and R38s (and the myriad staring eyes). We noticed E #3711's bulkead sign - the glass is filthy to the point where you can not make out the route letter at a distance of ten paces.
BTW no such problems with the R38s. #4075's C sign was clearly readable, even by the eyes on the far wall (just kidding!).
Wayne
Those Jamaica R32's get mighty dirty because the line is all underground and many also get laid up underground (4 trains between 75th Ave & Union Tpke. and 6 on the tail tracks beyond Parsons/ Archer). They usually only go to Jamaica Yard when they are b/o or due for inspection. Yes, the C is also all underground, but the hours of service is shorter, they are laid up outside at Pitkin & 207 St. Yards, and it is an easier & shorter move in terms of time to get them to & from the wash at 207 St. Yard. I have noticed the Queens cars particularly the R32's & R46 six car G trainsets are not as clean on the outside as the other cars on the system, but again, those cars spend a lot of time underground.
7-8 G trains lay up in Jamaica yard nightly but none during the day. They are particularly dirty because we do not wash below 28 degrees F. It's been very cold overnight for months now. The Bergen St. fire has not helped either. We don't get to see the shuttles for weeks at a time.
As for the E train, you are correct. 10 trains lay up on the road and 8 run all night. That's 180 cars. Add 8 for inspection and an average of 36 out of service for repair nightly, we see a maximum of 70 cars nightly. Since they share the car wash with the R-46s, when we wash, only 2-3 trains are R-32s.
I've seen some "G" trains that are clean and dirty. The A-B-B-A consist is clean while the A-A consist is dirty.
You are a few days late and a few dollars short!! Thursday night I purchased a large power washer to start doing the ends of the R-32s. Because of the configuration of the car wash, the ends virtually never get cleaned. The power washer will clean the outer end sign glass. Of course the end signs need to remoed and the glass cleaned from the inside too.
As for 3711, I'll call it in off the road after AM service Monday and get it cleaned...
Steve,
While you have the glass removed on 3711's end destination sign boxes, why don't you sneak back in and old roller signs, and see if anyone notices :-) -- maybe people will remember how much better they were and we can start a movement!!
I'm not close enough to retirement yet to become a rebel, Todd. So unless you can team me up with Therese Crowley in the AMs over at CBS, I gotta go along with the program.....
And Steve, if we ever need to ask you something (Like cleaning a car) do we have to say Please?
>GR&D<
I'm not sure what the >GR&D< means, Lou. However, to answer your question, NO, you don't have to say please. While I am not in charge of "Car Appearance" of the Jamaica Fleet, I an definitely interested in the appearance of the fleet. Jamaica's fleet is currently 1,042 cars. That happens to be the largest single railcar fleet in North America with the exception of the CTA (and perhaps AMTRAK).
Anyone who has been posting here for any length of time knows that I actively solicit all reports of car defects. This goes for for the Jamaica fleet as well as the other 'sister' fleets of the NYCT. I respond to each and every such report because I have been around long enough to know that I do not (and can not) see every defect on every car. I am also not so foolish that I would refuse the help that these observations provide. I have even responded via E-Mail to people reporting significant mechanical problems, letting them know what was actually wrong with the car.
Our goal is to clean more than 70% of the car exteriors each week. This would suggest that we know that the cars do get dirty. However, if you see a particularly dirty car in my fleet, by all means, let me know. I check my E-Mail twice daily. I will, based on priorities like cars for service, try to respond to that report.
BTW: If you doubt the value of such reports, you can find me, or one of my fellow managers, virtually every AM for an hour or two, at one of out northern terminals (179th St, Parsons-Archer or Continental Ave.) just observing the service and noting such defects. Those cars are then captured and repaired.....
I'll volunteer! I sure miss the multicolored Mylar signs. Is this an impossible device to create: a dot-display (like what is there now) but with the appropriate color background for the route, and the ability to change color backgrounds according to a setting, and high intensity white dots instead of yellow?
It sure looks like the signs on R38 are of a different make than those on R32. At least they could have put that frame around the R32 ends like they did on R38 (or R32GE). Makes a snappier-looking sign display. I know, MKCO is not GE, there were only 196 R38 vs 592 R32 etc.etc. Just wishfull thinking.
Wayne
Just wondering did you see that one R 62A Sat. that was two link ups in the same series. Car Nos. 1691-1695 with 1696-1700 on the same train. I saw it North of Elder Ave on M TK.
No we missed that one! I would have liked to have gotten on #1696 with its jet black car floor. Then I can mark it as officially spotted. The two R62A consists we saw were mixed bags all, a lot of higher 1700s and 1800s, plus 1904, 1910 etc.
It was nice to see the Redbirds out in force. BTW I have two good interior shots of #9506 - would you like me to scan them and send them
to you?
BTW I spotted a Redbird on the #5 I'd NEVER seen - #7849. This is in thirty years (as of April 7) of spotting trains and collecting unit numbers. One more thing - I've NEVER seen 8636-8637. If you see these Rustbirds, let me know. I have seen all the others except for
#8986-8987 and #7874.
Thanks,
Wayne
I didn't see that one but I did see R62 units 1461 to 1470 consecutively mated.
--Mark
Can anyone tell me if these rumors are true? I heard that a direct transfer between Botanic Gardens on the Franklin Ave. shuttle and Franklin Ave. on the IRT is being made. I also heard that the MTA is considering reversing IRT service in the Bronx. The Lexington Ave. (5) train will run to 241st street, and the 7th Ave. (2) train will run to Dyre Ave. If both these rumors are true, it's great.
I live in Prospect Heights and when they shut down the Franklin Av Shuttle the flyers the MTA handed out (or rather had in piles in the 7th ave D/Q station) said that one of the major renovations was a connection from the botanic gardens stop to the IRT, but that was a while ago and I haven't heard anything since.
Anybody have more info on the new shuttle line? what the renovations mean? if the shuttle line will run more frequently when renovated?
Also, are there any plans to reinstate N/R express svce and if so is that the reason the south side Manhattan Bridge tracks are being rehabilitated?
Thanks!
Jordan
[Can anyone tell me if these rumors are true? I heard that a direct transfer between Botanic Gardens on the Franklin Ave. shuttle and Franklin Ave. on the IRT is being made. I also heard that the MTA is considering reversing IRT service in the Bronx. The Lexington Ave. (5) train will run to 241st street, and the 7th Ave. (2) train will run to Dyre Ave. If both these rumors are true, it's great.]
Rumor #1 (the Franklin Avenue Shuttle transfer) is true. I haven't heard anything about Rumor #2 (2 and 5 terminal switch), but I highly doubt it.
Peter is correct about the transfer to the IRT. This is an awesome improvement as the connection will allow customers who may encounter slow train service, or the common "police activity" on the D train to switch to the 2,3,4 or 5 trains via the Franklin Shuttle. And that applies vis-versa.
I always wondered how come there was no transfer point at Franklin Avenue on the 2,3,4,& 5 trains to the Shuuttle at the Botanic Gardens station. Well I guess looking at the condition of the Franklin Av shuttle that's a no brainer. But where did you get this source of info?
It was part of the reconstruction process. Take a trip to Franklin Av and look for yourself. Work is just starting there.....
I no longer live in city, I am planning to be in the City this summer.I will check that out since I ride the #3, & 4 as a priority.
Question #1:
That is true. There will be a transfer between the and the ,,, trains in the Bx.
Question #2:
I haven not heard anything about the terminal switch between the and the trains.
Now if they can build that transfer between the and the trains......
Also a transfer between the and the ,, and trains.
I am so nostalgic......
Question #1:
That is true. There will be a transfer between the and the ,,, trains in Bklyn.
Question #2:
I haven not heard anything about the terminal switch between the and the trains in the Bx.
Now if they can build that transfer between the and the trains......
Also a transfer between the and the ,, and trains.
I am so nostalgic......
I find the second rumor interesting. I am sure many out there did not know that until the very early 1960's the #2 ran to Dyre Av and the #5 ran to 241st St. The terminals were switched because the majority of the people on the Dyre Av Line transferred to the Lexington Av line at E 180th St and vice versa. I think it is still that way. But with NYCT you never know.
I myself wouldn't mind if the 5 went back to 241st and the 2 was sent back to Dyre after all these years. Then the trip to Manhattan on the 2 would no longer be the "ride of a thousand stops," and there would be more direct Thru Express service to White Plains line riders.
I remember somebody on this site calling the F train in Brooklyn, "the ride of a thousand stops." I would say it's the ride of five hundred stops. I've ridden the F from Coney Island to Manhattan and I can tell you that it's faster and has fewer stops than the 2 from 241st to Manhattan.
If you would like the ride of a thousand stops, hop on the A from 207 sometime after midnite and head out to the Rockaways. Nothing like an hour and three quarters against the wall.....
Especially if you're stuck on a train of R-44s.
When I was a new Train Operator,I would be assigned the "A" train on occassion. If there are no track workers on the roadbed,the 1hour 42 minutes it takes to go from Far Rockaway to 207st goes pretty quick.
That almost only 14 Minutes more then going from E 241 Street to Flatbush on the No.2 Line which is 1 HR. and 27 Min. I just picked the No. 2 Line for Satuarday's.
At least they added some running time to the line. When I was a conductor, I worked there on Thursday and Friday. In 1992, the running time was 1hour 22 minutes. You got to the other end on time if you made no connections and no #3 in front of you.I remember being on time 2 times that pick.
I guess that makes the A "the ride of fifteen hundred stops." That most definitely is a longer trip than the F or the 2.
I'd like to ask all SubTalkers to take a look at my new website, www.forgotten-ny.com, dedicated to the unusual or 'forgotten' things you pass in the street every day and never notice, like ancient advertising, remnants of trolley tracks, old signs, castiron lampposts, waterfalls in the Bronx, farms in Queens, and much more. I have a feeling you'll enjoy it. There's quite a bit of material on NYC subways, buses and trolleys of yesteryear.
This a very good site. I recommend all to enter....
In the NY Post Monday March 29, page 3, are two articles.
Article 1: The TA wants it conductors to cut the small talk - and their manners. To save time during station stops and to encourage clearer messages, the TA has ordered conductors to shorten onboard announcements. No more saying ''Please'' as in ''Please stand clear of the closing doors.'' Also no more announcing the train you are on like ''This is the D train to Coney Island, Brooklyn''.
Article 2: Retired subway conductor Harry Nugent who tickled passengers on the # 1 Broadway line with his good humor and wit tells what he thinks of the TA's telling the conductors to shorten onboard announcements.
After reading the article, your thoughts are most welcome as always.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Don't know if you meant to write 'NY Daily News' or not, but the articles are there:
This is the main article
and this is the one that has Mr. Nugent's comments
-Hank
Hank you are right i meant to say the articles are in the Daily News page 3.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Well, lets see ... the word "please" has one syllable, and if we assume you're riding the D train with, let's see, about 40 stops or so (estimating) and if it takes, let's see, 1 second to say the word "please", well, we've just shaved a whopping 40 seconds off the travel time! Wow! I'm sure all passengers will notice how much faster they've arrived at their destination!
Now, let's take that one step further and not even open the doors at each station! Heck, why even stop at all?!? The on-time record would improv measurably and, get this, trains would often BEAT their schedules!!
If NYC Transit wants to improve on dwell time, they oughtta run more trains because the ones coming are overcrowded as it is.
--Mark
[Well, lets see ... the word "please" has one syllable, and if we assume you're riding the D train with, let's see, about 40 stops or so (estimating) and if it takes, let's see, 1 second to say the word "please", well, we've just shaved a whopping 40 seconds off the travel time! Wow! I'm sure all passengers will notice how much faster they've arrived at their destination!
Now, let's take that one step further and not even open the doors at each station! Heck, why even stop at all?!? The on-time record would improv measurably and, get this, trains would often BEAT their schedules!!]
That's inadequate. I've got a better idea - don't run the trains at all, and that way they'll NEVER be behind schedule!
[That's inadequate. I've got a better idea - don't run the trains at all, and that way they'll NEVER be behind schedule! ]
Hey, it works for the LIRR with Oyster Bay!!!!!
A few years ago, they went to a train every 2 hrs "due to track work". Actually, at one point I believe there was no service in at least one direction. Anyway, it's still a train every 2 hrs. What bugs me is that they probbably could have single tracked it from Glen Head or Roslyn, thus saving the $$$ on high level platforms. Then again, a friend of mine swears that he heard something on electrifiying the line. My gut feeling is the line'll be gone in a few years... Anyone know what's up with this line?
Last I heard the LIRR wanted to electrify the rest of the line, but people along the line did not, because it would spoil the "rural" (or whatever term they used) flavor of the line. So nothing was done.
Just to add my two cents' worth:
They should speed up the trains just a tad. Or at least soup up those wallowing, slowpoke, R-16-like R-68s on the D. What's wrong with 40 mph on the CPW stretch? Or 45? The R-10s used to top that regularly in the good old days.
If there concerned about moving trains and On Time Performance heres what they should do.
1. Unmodify the trains so you get top speed. I average only 30 MPH with a working speedomiter.
2. tighten up the Headways. Get on Crews that don't get on there train on time. (Its alway the same people)
3. add 5 Minutes to the running time
4. Add more Platform Conductors
About you're number 3....Makes me think of an old joke about marksmanship. Just call whatever you hit the target, you can't possibly miss!
-Hank :)
I wonder if the TA hired an efficency expert to come up with this one or if Hoffman was on a train running late one day and was just ticked off while the conductor was making the announcment.
This, of course, assumes TA execs ride the subway.
Guess what? This story even made it in the Rocky Mountain News in today's issue. And get this: it ends by saying "In the fall, bridge and toll collectors were ordered to say "Thank you" to customers."
As a UConn alum, I couldn't resist putting in a plug for the basketball team, even though I know this is off topic. Go, Huskies!!
It is sad to hear that NY has decided that the word "please" as they feel it costs them too much time. Or is it maybe they need to get into step with the Police Department?
The word please doesn't cost you even a penny to use and adds just a little "civility" in our world that seems to lack almost any civility anymore.
BTW, in Chicago very few OPERATORS use the word please when making announcements
As I recall, the only announcements which were made back in the late 60s were the next stop once the train was moving, and those were very brief. On an uptown N of R-32s, all you would hear on the PA would be, "34th St. next" after leaving Union Square. No announcements were made while the train was standing in a station taking on and discharging passengers.
Announcements have sure improved since I left the city. My only experience was with the R16's in the mid 1950's when station announcements went like this...
Cypress Hills.....Cypress Hills.....Wattchadoors!
I'm not kidding either.
At least the PA systems worked on the R16's when they were new! LOL. Because they sure didn't by the time I got my hands, handles & keys into them in their final years! Years ago, there were no standards for PA announcements. Conductors were simply told to use the PA system. Some did, some didn't, some were good speakers, some weren't. " Wattcha doors" is what most conductors said. That sounded rather crude and it sounded a little less harsh if the word "Please" was added. "Stand Clear of the Closing Doors" sounds rather professional and some conductors started saying that (it gets a little boring watching doors!). Saying "Please" added more professionalism to the phrase. Then a guy named John Diekman got hired by the TA and he standardized PA announcements with the "BLUE BOOK." I don't know if he was still around when the revision memorandum to conductors came out by the TA omitting the word "please" after saying "Stand clear of the closing doors". Conductors were not told not to say please, but the memo simply omitted the word. Joe Hoffman (the head of the Dept. of Subways) also said on TV it was unnecessary for the conductors to identify the route. EXCUSE ME, SIR: but isn't that a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act?, something which the TA has been spending millions of dollars on to be compliant? As we all know, the TA put the word "Please" back in while all the media screaming was going on in a new memorandum issued Tues 3/30, ordering conductors to resume making "BLUE BOOK" announcements as previously. The funniest part was what was written on the bottom of the memo, which has been on all recent memo's: EVERY SECOND COUNTS."
Some thoughts on this silliness:
1. I thought the conductor was looking to see if passengers are in the doorways when they ask us to watch the doors. Maybe the real time waster is looking out the window. Just snap 'em shut and roll.
2. With the irratating ding-dong, why say anything?
3. I remember a conductor at WTC welcoming everyone on board with a pleasant "Good afternoon, welcome aboard the..." It made most of us feel a little more positive towards the subway and assured some of us that we really were on the right train. (The destination signs never all agreed with each other)
4. It's only a matter of time until the announcements are all automated and this discussion becomes moot.
5. I do watch the doors. They're not all that interesting.
Bill
Hey, the subject reminds me of an old MAD magazine cartoon about the subways and getting passengers to get their 'body parts' into the cars: line the door edges with razor blades so anything left dangling gets lobbed off!!
So, do you I think I can safely apply for a NYCT executive position any day now? ;)
Funny you should bring that up. I've never read MAD magazine, but I had the same crazy thought this morning while reading one of the earlier posts in this thread. Great minds think alike, eh? -:)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another thought: A friend who's a long time Conductor says he often wishes there were an extra button on the door controls that would send 600 volts thru the doors as a deterrent to door holders!
Come on that not going to work. I blamed people who hold the door and chase them delay. Also people want to go home and didn't want to wait for the next train? Than they better take a cab home.
So while we're sitting there waiting several minutes for holding lights for "schedule adjustments" or "even spacing", there's no time for "small talk". This is how they save time and keep the trains moving!
And just for the record... The bulletin that changed the announcement was issued in Feb and went into effect March 1. It took four (4) weeks for everyone to notice that we weren't saying please!
Have you noticed all the advertizements screaming for tax dollars. There are the hospitals, which are richer here than anything else, screaming about proposed "cuts" in their usual 10 to 20 percent annual increase in public money. Vallone wants tax cuts for homeowners, who are the only group in NYC which doesn't pay exhorbitant local taxes. CUNY profs, who work 12 hours a week but whose income relies on public funding for students who never graduate, have ads attacking the idea that students who can't read and write should get vocational training a community colleges instead of enrolling in CUNY. Meanwhile, quietly, big companies are cutting deals so they don't have to pay taxes anymore. Now the TWU wants to run ads to compete.
What about the "losers" in New York City and State's fiscal hierachy? The Teacher's Union is running ads which say that the city's schools are good (not unless you are a yuppy in a "special" school) and that they are underpaid (relative to other places and other NY area residents they are). But I don't see any advertizing campaign for public works. Do you?
If all these people are screaming for more, who ends up with less? The children and the future, which are represented by no one.
The hospital union via Mr. Rivera runs an effective propaganda machine. Most of his membership would be unemployable elsewhere in our increasingly 'digital' economy. The hospital system is now a jobs program. The hospital industry has been screaming like this since the days of the 1975 fiscal crisis. They are now quite good at it.
The CUNY people are running an ad campaign to defend their piece of the financial turf. I am a CUNY graduate myself (Brooklyn '79). But the level of remediation now is absurd because the public high schools are turning out cretins which CUNY is expected to transform into Nobel prize winners.
As for we homeowners - watch it Larry! Remember that the homeowners paying low property taxes are the same people paying the high income, sales, gasoline and other taxes. We deserve a break.
The special deals to keep businesses in the city are the price we pay for an insane business-tax structure. Is it blackmail? Maybe, but no mayor wants to be vilified for 'losing' 1000 jobs to New Jersey, Connecticut or Virginia.
As we get closer to 2001 these voices will get louder and louder, and have a good chance of winning out in a Post-Giuliani administration
(As we get closer to 2001 these voices get louder and louder, and will have a good chance of winning the post-Giuliani election).
The "winners" can scream because they use our tax dollars to do it. My point is the "losers" -- categories of spending where the city spends less than the national average -- have to scream too. That includes just about everything, but especially public works and education. And the big loser on the tax side is new, growing businesses which don't get the tax breaks. For my part, I'll scream for a Manhattan Bridge replacement, 2nd Avenue subway, Astoria train to the airport, after-school programs, summer school programs, school rehabs, the Hudson River park, etc.
It drives me crazy to see the school advocates allied with the hospitals. Don't they understand that we spend so much less than average on schools in large part because our hospitals are so much richer? Idiots.
Business taxes need to be reduced and/or eliminated for all businesses. NYC is starting to lose 'Silicon Valley' firms to NJ, and most of these firms are less than five years old! What you are up against is the ingrained anti-business culture of the New York left. Hell, even that liberal rascal Bill Clinton is pro-business is his own bizarre way. The fact that it is our tax dollars that they are screaming for is of absolutely no concern to these arrogantly well-organized interest groups.
The city and state have to reduce the income taxes. It only serves to drive successful New Yorkers and their businesses out of state. But the transit items you suggest are the kind of large public works projects that NYC has never been able to do within budget and would ultimately lead to higher taxes 5 to 10 years from now.
I am prejudiced because I work in the telecommunication industry (and am telecommuting for the time being) but I can forsee the day within the next 10 years when corporations will not need thousands of employees in large office buildings. And thus NYC (and all cities) will not need as much transit infrastructure. Even the New York Stock Exchange is wondering if the Nasdaq-type exchange is the future. What will the NYC liberals do when there are fewer, and more mobile corporaions left to tax.
And lastly what guarantee does anyone have that the city's tax coffers will be enriched by 'Wall Street' money indefinitely, especially when these same 'Wall Street' people realize that they can massively reduce their total income tax bills by moving to NJ or CT. The state and city take of capital gains is considerable. The future will bring more challenges to the very nature of this city than any elected official is willing to acknowledge.
You are a victim of Ayn Rand sickness. Ayn Rand was a third rate romance novelist who became enamored with jungle law junk economics and her disciples such as Henry Hazlitt and today's Cato Instute have managed to spread their poison throughout the world because the fat cats can get richer while everyone else gets poorer. The practice which is in vouge in today's non regulated business enviroment whereby businesses threaten to relocate operations is called whipsawing (Extortion, really---sholud result in loss of corporate charter and nullification of shareholder equity) In international trade the situation is even worse, entrepreneuers have only to use the World Trade Organization to overturn needed food safety and other regulations As for the Cato institute, just look in Monday's USA Today and see what they have to say about the events in Kosovo. No, I'm not a communist but I do look forward to an America where the works of Rand, Hazlitt et.al. are looked at the with the same skepticism as those of Marx, Engels, and Mao Our government had better assert it's authority real soon, before big business takes over the world.
While New York's high taxes can be a hindrance to business growth, it's important not to overstate the problem. As I noted earlier, taxation levels play only a relatively minor part in business (re-)location decisions. If NYC startup businesses are relocating to New Jersey and elsewhere once they begin growing - and I actually haven't seen much statistical (as opposed to anecdotal) evidence to that effect - other factors may be responsible to a much greater degree. Commercial rents in particular tend to be significantly lower in neighboring areas. A high-tech startup that becomes successful may soon find itself in need of more room. Manhattan's rent levels will make New Jersey seem a lot more attractive. Taxes are almost a side consideration. Don't forget that real estate is typically the second largest cost item for a business, behind labor and far ahead of taxes. And labor, of course, is another area in which New York often is at a competitive disadvantage, what with its strong union tradition. I would imagine that relative labor costs are less of a consideration for high-tech businesses than with manufacturers, however.
I'm certainly not suggesting that New York taxes shouldn't be lowered if at all possible. There is plenty of room to lower taxes if the state's and city's monstrous overspending on health care somehow could be brought under control. And yes, doing so would free up more money for transit improvements.
When I was in graduate school, we had a whole textbook on business location factors such as labor, real estate, taxes, markets, raw materials, etc. with formulas to explain the rational location patterns of businesses. At the end of the book, they had something called the "Golf course effect" that is businesses will divert slightly from the best location if the CEO wants the plant to be near his favorite golf course.
I now know that the Golf Course Effect is almost the whole explanation, and all those other factors are merely constraints on the golf course effect. For reasonably large corporations, the most important location factors are race and class, not labor, real estate, and taxes. For entreprenuers, the most important location factor is "hip" vs. "unhip."
So why do corporate businesses move to NJ? Race and class -- they can't afford Manhattan, and will not move to Downtown Brooklyn, where they will pay virtually no taxes but will be surrounded by low and moderate income non-white shoppers. They may not be able to attract low wage employees, but the execs will have a short commute. Meanwhile, the city could compete on the "hip" front if the political culture didn't treat new businesses like criminals.
Manhattan is not, and will not, lose out to NJ, believe me. The problem is Brooklyn and Queens lose out to Jersey City, and Long Island is losing out to suburban NJ and CT, for the Manhattan overspill.
[When I was in graduate school, we had a whole textbook on business location factors such as labor, real estate, taxes, markets, raw materials, etc. with formulas to explain the rational location patterns of businesses. At the end of the book, they had something called the "Golf course effect" that is businesses will divert slightly from the best location if the CEO wants the plant to be near his favorite golf course.
I now know that the Golf Course Effect is almost the whole explanation, and all those other factors are merely constraints on the golf course effect.]
A few years ago, with its lease on Sixth Avenue about to expire, MasterCard began scouting around the city and the suburbs for new space. Despite the city's best retention efforts, the company relocated to Westchester. And there was no doubt why they made that decision - the CEO came right out and admitted that the new location was convenient to his country club.
Not to mention the fact that NYC has always done a poor job of marketing non-Manhattan locations. I think that the idea of borough relocations is unofficially dead as far as the city is concerned. But I also think that employers are leery about the quality of the labor pool in the 'outer' boroughs because of the mediocre public schools. Each borough in practicality can only draw from itself and adjoining boroughs or counties. Staten Island can also draw from New Jersey, which explains while the Teleport / South Avenue area is doing fairly well. There are even a few small privately built low-rise office buildings there. Whereas in Manhattan you can draw from the entire region. And if you opt for the suburbs you draw from a more well educated labor pool. So what's the answer??
[Not to mention the fact that NYC has always done a poor job of marketing non-Manhattan locations. I think that the idea of borough relocations is unofficially dead as far as the city is concerned. But I also think that employers are leery about the quality of the labor pool in the 'outer' boroughs because of the mediocre public schools. Each borough in practicality can only draw from itself and adjoining boroughs or counties. Staten Island can also draw from New Jersey,
which explains while the Teleport / South Avenue area is doing fairly well. There are even a few small privately built low-rise office buildings there. Whereas in Manhattan you can draw from the entire region. And if you opt for the suburbs you draw from a more well educated labor pool. So what's the answer??]
I don't see why the city should have given up on marketing the outer boroughs. Some areas, such as Long Island City and downtown Brooklyn, have good transit services that put them well within reach of both Manhattan residents and many suburban commuters. Businesses in those locations would not be dependent on the admittedly dubious local labor pool. Yes, it's true that there are lingering prejudices against the outer boroughs, but that's all the more reason why the city should embark on a vigorous marketing effort.
The outer boroughs have a space problem. No one is willing to move "Class A" office operations there, but NYC contruction union contracts and practices are based on Manhattan prices, so no one can build new office buildings and make money at "Class B" rents -- ie $15 to $20 per square foot -- like they can in NJ. That's true even though new office buildings would have no property taxes due up front, and little due for years, and the commercial rent tax doesn't apply outside Manhattan.
Manhattan has Class B office space -- it is 20 to 30 year old former class A space. But the outer boroughs haven't had investment, and don't have old buildings available for entreprenuers. What they do have is class Z. Exceptions are well occupied.
Got to get the cost of construction down outside Manhattan.
[The special deals to keep businesses in the city are the price we pay for an insane business-tax structure. Is it blackmail? Maybe, but no mayor wants to be vilified for 'losing' 1000 jobs to New Jersey, Connecticut or Virginia.]
Deals of this sort have become commonplace nationwide. It's not just New York that fears losing businesses to other states or not getting new ones. Corporations have learned how to exploit these fears for sweetheart deals. Yet there's a dirty little secret behind all this - with rare exceptions, state and local tax burdens are relatively minor factors in business location decisions. Relative salary levels are vastly more important.
(Tax abatement deals)
I've been asked to come up with a forecast method to evaluate the "benefits" of these deals. Hopefully the project will go away, because they won't get the answer they want. They just assume that any company that would have threatened to move out would have, and that all their jobs are permanently retained. And then they want to calculate the jobs created by all the consumer spending of all the employees, and all the office supplies the company buys, etc.
First of all, one in eight businesses closes every year. The jobs are not permanently retained -- even if the company would really have left, you have to "discount" the economic benefits of the company over time, since sooner or later it will disappear anyway. For example, the city "retained" Chase, but a few years later it was bought out by Chemical and the jobs were lost to downsizing. SO the BENEFIT of giving a business a tax break starts out big, and shrinks to zero.
Second, you have to evaluate the cost of the extra taxes on new businesses (ie. unincorporated business tax) that the city must levy to make up for taxes not collected from large existing firms. How many new businesses are not started here because of these taxes? These businesses would start out small, most would close, but some would grow. So the COST of giving out tax breaks to big existing firms starts out small and grows! When EDC counts jobs retained, it doesn't calculate the offsetting jobs lost.
Hmmm. Short term benefits, long term costs. Sounds like a sound political strategy to me.
[(Business retention deals) Hmmm. Short term benefits, long term costs. Sounds like a sound political strategy to me.]
Term limits make this an even sounder strategy. The politicians who give out these deals can crow about the short term benefits, knowing that they'll no longer be in office when the costs begin to mount. And isn't this really the same concept behind the Manhattan Bridge debacle? By opting for piecemeal repairs rather than a complete replacement, the politicians were able to keep the initial costs down, which in this context is a form of short term benefit. If/when the bridge becomes totally unusable, with resulting chaos, there'll be different people in office.
(Short term costs, long term benefits and term limits). Short term thinking is why we need term limits. Most of the city's elected officials represent the Archie Bunkers, those who have been moving out and have no stake in the city's future. It is yuppies and immigrants who have been moving in, and have to care about what happens 20 years from now.
Look at Vallone's budget proposal. What will happen if you eliminate the mortgage recording tax in an overheated real estate market? Buyers will calculate they can pay more, and home prices will be bid up higher for the Vallonites, who will sell and move to Florida. The first time home buyers, the presumed beneficiaries, will not benefit at all. Instead, they'll be left with the debt and degraded infrastructure that Vallone, Sheldon Silver etc. leave behind.
It occurred to me today that it's been quite a while since there last was a subway quiz on Subtalk. I've therefore decided to toss one out for everyone's entertainment. And this isn't one that you can solve by looking at a subway map. Here goes:
There of course have been many different car types on the subway - Lo-Vs, Triplexes, Redbirds, the R series, etc. So, in what years have there been the *most* and the *fewest* different types in service? Note that I'm asking about car types, not the number of cars themselves. Two or more years may be tied in either or both categories. Good luck!
P.S. I don't know the answers myself :-)
Thinking about it, this quiz probably should be limited to the postwar (1946 - present) years. Otherwise 1904 would be the too-obvious choice as the year with the fewest different car types in service :-)
In that case, make it 1983. The R-62s made their debut then, while the rest of the fleet was falling apart
In that case, make it 1983. The R-62s made their debut then, while the rest of the fleet was falling apart. Except for the R-11s, all of the other postwar cars were still around then.
As for most car types, I'd say 1975. The R-46s were being delivered, and the R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s were still running (or limping).
Although this hardly deserves mention, there is a brief subway sequence in this film. Meg Ryan is shown sitting on what appears to be a train of R-62s. Presumably, she's on a 6 train, only because there is an exit sign visible above a bank of turnstiles which says "Exit to Lexington Ave. - 59th Street." Too bad they didn't use Redbirds...
Hey all you folks out there! 6398 needs voulenteers too! E- Mail either me or Harry for information on how to get involved at the Trolley Museum of NY, We have an R9 a Lo-V and BMT Q car. All of them need work, all of them need You!
And you have some really-in-need-of-work H&M cars... Those would be nice to see back in shape...
-dave
Listen to this guy, there's stuff out there that needs help before you can even think about getting more stuff. I've been involved with various projects in the Syracuse area for a number of years and would like to make a few points.
1. If there are endangered artifacts in museum hands,volunteer to work on them first.
2. Restoration shop facilities are a valuable resource, they should take priority over more stuff.
3. All kinds of skills are valuable to a preservation effort, Butcher, baker, candlestick maker, I don't care what you do I can find a job where your skills are relevant to the museum organization
4. Negativism brings failure.
5. Be ready to think outside the box "if not Coney Island, then maybe somewhere else along this system that stretches for hundreds of miles.
6. Be realistic, there will be disappointments but if you set your priorities properly, they will be more than balanced by your successes
7. If you people who have never volunteered think you know subways now, Believe me, volunteering will open up a whole new world of knowledge.
8. Reread point 4.
Well put, John. Here are 4 museums in the northeast that
display or operate New York City rapid transit equipment:
The New York Transit Museum (Brooklyn, NY)
Seashore Trolley Museum (Kennebunkport, Maine)
The Trolley Museum of New York (Kingston, NY)
The Shore Line Trolley Museum (East Haven, CT)
I am a trustee of Shore Line, and you will also find active members of
all of these museums on SubTalk to answer your questions.
Supporting a railway museum by becoming a member, volunteering,
providing donations of materials and funds, or any or all of the
above is an important step that you can take today to make
sure the history and the cars of the NYCTS are preserved for
the future.
Well said, Jeff. It takes people, money, interest, and time to restore cars. And if we don't display them properly, treat them well, and properly communicate their legacy to the general public, it's all for naught.
I would also recommend that people sign-up for a subscription to the Association of Railway Museum's Railway Museum Quarterly, only $15 per year. It's a great resource!
-Todd Glickman
Vice Chairman
Operations, Safety & Training Committee
Seashore Trolley Museum
Hey jeff how do you do that which four lists??? just tell me how so i can try my. Thank you
> Hey jeff how do you do that which four lists??? just tell me how so i can try my. Thank you
I'm not sure I understand the question, "DJ". Are you asking
how I put a list of 4 hyperlinks into my posting?
Yes Jeff H. just tell me how i do that with 4 hyperlinks?
The simple answer, "Mean" DJ, is that what you type into the
Message box on your screen may contain HTML commands.
For example, I made that word above bold by surrounding it
with <B> and </B> Similarly, you can embed an
<A HREF="http://blah.blah.blah">description of the link
</A> to produce a hyperlink.
David (Pirmann), is there an FAQ for this "board"? I'm sure
fun stuff like this and making route letters look like end sign
bullets would be covered in there.
There's a faq (see the top of the SubTalk screen) but people can learn HTML everywhere. I don't have the time to duplicate that info...
Besides I am starting to regret putting those bullets up. With all the broken test posts plus the overabundance of their use (IMHO) it's making the posts look cluttered and for me, are hard to read. Keep in mind that someone reading your post in a text-only browser won't see what that bullet represents unless you use an alt="" tag in your img command. But then, here we go teaching HTML again...
These kids today...never punched cards or read
a core dump :)
Probably 75% of the participants don't code HTML as a rule.
They use a GUI web page composer and never have to deal with
raw syntax. One "weakness" of WebBBS is that you can't post by
attaching a document that you've composed outside of the browser,
so that route isn't going to work for them.
For me it's a pain because I'd rather use vi to write these
things than the point-and-click Netscape text window editor.
Oh well, I suppose I could un-center my reverse key and use
a perl script to make the post, cookies and all.
Jeff, My first course at Queensboro was a paper tape feed terminal, ever done that ? Next was Cobol with punch cards ... oh if you dropped the stack of cards ... what fun we use to have :-(
Mr t__:^)
Good idea, Erik. Let's try and get these railfans involved! Every Museum needs help. If I thought Kingston was accessible, I'd come and run up there. I wish you the best in restoration of the R16.
Question: Can you run your cars under the wire?
-Constantine
The AMC Channel had on a movie this morning called "The Naked City " made in 1948 with Barry Fitzgerald and Howard Duff. There were many street shots of New York with FACO and NYCO buses,even a Fifth Av Double-Decker. The climax of the movie has the murderer chased onto the Williamsburg Birdge while several trains of Standards are running by. It was this movie that the famous TV series was based on.
Larry,RedbirdR33
While I havent seen the movie in years, The FBI story starring Jimmy Stewart had a cool Cold War elevated railway scene in it
While this is not about the NYC Subway. The 1995 movie "While You Were Sleeping" has extensive footage of the CTA "Loop" operation.
Yes the TV series was based on this movie! I believe that I mentioned it a while back and some of it made it onto the movie list on this sight.
If you liked that one, check out a film called NIGHT AND THE CITY with Richard Widmark made by the same director. It's a better film and also uses New York as a back drop. There is an excelent Pickpocket scene on a subway car during rush hour.
This morning on the N train, one of the roll signs was only halfway in place, and I was able to see a W in a yellow circle, and Astoria as its northern terminal.
I know we've talked extensively of a W train on the 63rd Street line, but I don't remember ever hearing about a W train on the Astoria line.
Does anyone know about this?
Oh you saw a CIRCLE "W"? I thought that it was just a Diamond sign. I will have to amend my records. The Slants also carry a "W" sign (and a "V" as well).
Wayne
When the A/B tracks on the Manhattan Bridge close, and the 6th Avenue express is cut off, perhaps they plan to run two services to Astoria, one of which would be the W.
My understanding is that if they ever restore Manhattan Bridge service, the would be the replacement for the previously existing , which ran local from Astoria to Whitehall St, while the ran express to 57st or Astoria.
- Hank
Do you suppose the W might replace either the B or the D in Brooklyn when the 6th Ave tracks shut down? Somebody else on this site suggested that as well as adding T. I think it was T for West End and W for Brighton? Where would these lines originate from now that the Broadway express tracks are connected to the 63rd Street tunnel?
I certainly hope so (The T is West End, because that was what it was from '60 (r-27/30 signs) to Chrystie St. I had preferred "U" for Brighton, because '86-88 it was skip-stop with the Q, but the W is on everything except the original R-68 signs. The electronic side signs on the R-44/46 also have the T as West End, and the W can go anywhere on the southern Div, including the Brighton. So if they were to do this, the W would not be able to use R-68's, and the T would be restricted to R-32's (which have the bullet in white, and no words; the R-46's probably don't have it on the front roll sign.). OR, they would have to get new signs. They did it for the 9 service...
They probably won't use the B'way connection during this time. If the West End switches to the local to go to Astoria, that still leaves the two Brighton services, and those would have to merge with the V from 6th Av, and then the R or E & F in Queens. I don't see them doing this. So the Brightons will probably just terminate at 57th, like before, and only 6th Av will use 63rd.
What they could do is build a 600 ft section of 2nd Av, so some trains could terminate at Lexington Av on the track that is now behind the wall, and then relay on 2nd Av, returning to service on the other level.
If they do run trains on the Broadway BMT express tracks and through the 63rd St. connection to Queens, there will be a merge problem at 57th St. if they also return the N to Broadway Express operation.
When (if?) the Manhattan Bridge tracks to Brooadway reopen, they will certainly want to return the N to express operation. Perhaps the N would be switched back to Queens Blvd., only this time running through 63rd St.? And there wouldn't be any service from Queens Plaza to the Broadway BMT?
Through service from 57th and 7th to Queens would probably mean the `N' and `R' would run local from Continental Ave. to 36th St., since that would require fewer track switches. Of course, for people at the local stops wanting to go down either Sixth or Eighth Aves., that still would mean changing trains at Roosevelt or Queens Plaza, which would defeat part of the purpose of the 63rd St. connection.
If and when they finally get the Broadway Express tracks running again, I wouldn't be surprised if they run the proposed `V' by way of 63rd St. as a Queens Blvd./Sixth Ave. local, run the `N' from Coney Island to either 57th-7th or 63rd-Lex, switch the `R' back to Astoria and run the new `W' train on the route the old `EE' used, from Whitehall St. to Continental Ave. via the 60th Street tunnel.
That would allow local passengers in Queens access to Broadway or Sixth Ave., and (going back to some earlier posts) It might even allow F-express/V-local service between Chruch Ave. and Jay St. in Brooklyn.
These signs were ordered back when operating on both sides of the Manhattan Bridge AT THE SAME TIME was not just a quaint memory. In those days, long, long ago, the N (which ran to Continental, remember) operated express over the bridge, but some trains (in the Queens peak direction) ran local to lower Manhattan (Whitehall St). In 1987, the N and R were switched--this had already been planned when the signs were ordered. So the thought was, when the bridge comes back after the 6 mo. closure, re-lable the N Whitehall locals as "W" (for Whitehall). (Diamond, 'cause rush hours only). Of course, on most of the fleet, the W could be a spare yellow letter for any new Broadway service, but the R32/38 included a route description with the letter. Will the W ever be used? Not in this millenium, anyway.
Hi all,
This weekend, I have a 3 day weekend off (Fri/Sat/sun) and I might have time to modify from existing time-based map to create a fanasty subway map created by subway fans (kinda like if MTA granted us a authority to change the way subway routing SHOULD be!) I would like to see #8, 10,11,12,13,H,K,P,T,V,W, etc. on it I also would like to see all express tracks that are closed now to be used again.
Please state routing number/letter, terminals, etc... for each time-based maps. I'll collect the *FINAL* routings by this Thursday or Friday and start working on it.
Whatcha think?
Michael
Are you using some kind of computer program to alter the map?? or just crayons?
I am interested in how you are gong to do this. How will you print it and what's the cost???
Michael--I would love to see the map include the "Second IND" system including the South 4th Street and Utica/Fulton Complexes along with the Roosevelt Avenue/Winfield Spur Alignment.
George,
After I finish with a time-based "Fantasy" map this weekend... my next project might be making map(s) to include 2nd IND system. Of course, I'll need the time to update some outdated current maps. I get 3 day weekend off every 5 weeks.
Cheers,
Michael Adler
US Postal Service,
City Letter Carrier in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
I was wondering, has anyone been able to modify simcity to do a fantasy or time lapsed historical rapid transit map of NYC or any other location?
Are you using some kind of computer program to alter the map?? or just crayons?
I am interested in how you are gong to do this. How will you print it and what's the cost???
Also interested as to the copywrite infringment issues involving using the existing map in your project.
Please elaborate as to you plan.
[Also interested as to the copywrite infringment issues involving using the existing map in your project.]
Copywrite infringement doesn't enter into the picture as it is Mr. Adler's map in the first place.
>>Also interested as to the copywrite infringment issues involving using the existing map in your project.<<
Chris,
All of my maps are *HAND* drawn using computer, NONE of 70+ maps that resides on www.nycsubway.org website are scanned! All of them are hand-drawn. Any questions?
Michael Adler
USPS, City Letter Carrier in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
Yes,
What program do you use???
Chris,
Would you believe........Microsoft's basic Paintbrush program!
Cheers,
Michael Adler
Mike,
Why don't you include the now-demolished lines as well? You could have "new" Culver routes, Broadway-Brooklyn to Fulton, the Manhattan els, Queensborough Bridge, Myrtle/Lex els, etc. Or maybe include the IND second system lines.
-Dave
And be be sure to have a LGA-NYC connection, via the Astoria then Broadway Express line... express from LGA to Broadway/57th Street would be just fine for this frequent commuter :=} and you can make it the
Bring back the !!
And pencil in something approximating the or !
24-7 service, too - "On Broadway..." (la-de-da...)
Wayne
"...and slant R-40s on the Q on Broadway, on Broadway..."
If you're gonna include Fantasy Equipment too...how about D units on the Sea Beach..or the Multi-Sections on the LL (canarsie)line..or Standards on the Brighton Local...or any Low or Hi-Vs on various IRT lines??? (How 'bout the BMT Q units on the Flushing??) As long as we're dreaming......
The Triplexes could also run on the Brighton express. After all, most of them spent the bulk of their careers over there.
I second the motion for the NX. Express all the way!
Build the entire IND system as planned in 1929. Extend the Flushing Line from from Times Square of NJ. Complete the Second Avenue Subway.
Of course, bring back the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Avenue El's.
Re: The Flushing extension to NJ- Have it run down to the Javits Center, across the Hudson, stops in Weehawken and Union City; terminating at the Meadowlands (sep Giants sta and Arena stops??).
Put in the much-mentioned Brooklyn to Staten Island connection also.
And don't forget the South Ferry to Staten Island High Speed Line.
And the Newark to La Guardia High Speed via 110th Street.
And the B extension under the Park to 110th Street.
And the Atlantic Avenue Express to JFK via LIRR tracks.
How about a Utica Ave line? I will post the bulleted version later on tonight (my version)....
My fantasy subway would include a 3 or 4 track Canarsie line with the express stops at Rockaway Parkway, Livonia, Eastern Parkway, Myrtle, Lorimer, Union Square, 6th Ave. and 8th Ave.
Will these new maps be available for purchase when they are done?
Karl B wrote:
<>
Karl,
No...but all maps are free and availble ONLY via download on this site...You can print it....I know some guys that print all maps on this site and make a map book of their own! I plan to...but my color printer broke down last year...
Cheers,
Michael Adler
Ah, yes; but only if you could find a way to do it without ruining my lovely mosaics in the process! And what to do about Wilson Avenue- all that digging will surely wake the dead! 8o)
Wayne
Oh, Brother....
Well, at least it won't make the lights blink....
-Hank :)
Put the express tracks on a lower level. Better yet, do what the IND did in Queens and South Brooklyn and put in a separate express leg.
There are two lines for this subway line: and Stations:
West St-Houston St
Varick St-Houston St ,
Bway/Lafayette-Houston St ,,,
2Av-Houston St ,,(2Av line)
Columbia St-Houston St***
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bedford Av-Grand St
S.4 St/Union Av**
Lorimer St
Flushing/Graham Avs
Bway/Myrtle Av** ,,
Dekalb Av-Stuyvesant Av
Gates Av-Stuyvesant Av
Halsey St-Stuyvesant Av
Fulton St-Utica Av** ,
Bergen St-Utica Av
Eastern Pkwy-Utica Av** ,,
Empire Blvd/Remsen Av-Utica Av
Winthrop St-Utica Av
Church Av-Utica Av
Ave.D-Utica Av
Kings Hwy/Ave.H-Utica Av**
Flatlands Av/Ave.K-Utica Av
Ave.N-Utica Av
Fillmore Av-Utica Av**
From here and split up.
Kings Plz/Ave.U-Flatbush Av
Utica Av Local
---------------------------------------------------------------------
H service continues to:
E.36 St-Ave.S
Gerritsen Av-Ave.S
Ave.U/Gravesend Neck Rd.-Nostrand Av***
Ave.Y-Nostrand Av
Shore Pkwy/Emmons Av-Nostrand Av
Manhattan Bch/Kingsboro Community College
Utica Av Express
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Utica Av Express
West St, Manhattan to Manhattan Bch, Brooklyn
Rush hours***:Express between Fillmore Ave and Manhattan Bch. Stop at Ave.U in peak direction. Skips Columbia St in peak direction.
Except Late Nights:Express between Fillmore Av and S.4 St, Brooklyn
Late Nights:Local stops. Transfer with shuttle to Kings Plaza.
Utica Av Local
West St, Manhattan to Kings Plaza, Brooklyn
Weekdays:(5am-11pm) local stops
Saturdays:(8am-9pm) and Sundays:(11am-7pm) S.4 St-Kings Plaza, Bklyn
Late Nights (Shuttle):Fillmore Av-Kings Plaza, Bklyn. Transfer: making local stops to West St, Manhattan.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This line would be subway: West St to Kings Hwy. Elevated from Flatlands Av to terminals. The track configuration as follows:
3 tracks from West St to Varick St
2 tracks from Varick St to Bedford Av
4 tracks from Bedford Av to Fillmore Av
Two levels at Fillmore Av
3 tracks from Fillmore Av to Manhattan Beach
4 tracks from Fillmore Av to Kings Plaza
There you have it. If I left anything out, please let me know. Thank you. I have to correct something, but at a later time.
How about positioning some yards for all the extra service this provides.
I started to do that but the sandman took over. I'll include them later on tonight.
The train yards would be as follows: One major yard @ Fillmore Av(next to the Flatbush Bus Depot). I would have a track yard at Eastern Pkwy. This would be a sort of connection between IRT and IND. There would be another track yard would be @ S.4St. The middle track on the line between Fillmore and Manhattan Bch could be used for storage space. Also will have a yard @ Kings Plaza for extra trains.
Here are corrections:
Instead of Lorimer Street, there would be a Leonard St station. Service will then travel across and run down Humboldt St for Flushing/Graham Avs. After that it would run diagonal to Bway/Myrtle. From there normal service.
rush hour service: Every third train would run express in peak dirction between Fillmore Av and Manhattan Bch. The express stop would be Ave.U.
and would run under the ,, and @ Bway/Lafayette. This would be a two level station. There would be tracks, switches, and interlockings to lead to the 6 Av service. Imagine the wide island platform at this station.
Between West St and Varick St, there would be a pair of tracks that would turn for possible future extension to Javits Ctr and uptown........
Island platforms would be at the following stations:
West St
Varick St
Bway/Lafayette
S.4St
Bway/Myrtle
Fulton St
Eastern Pky
Kings Hwy
Fillmore Av
Ave.U and Manhattan Beach
Kings Plaza
Between Bway/Myrtle and Eastern Pkwy, the express tracks would go under the local tracks. This would form two levels. After Eastern Pky, tracks would rise and regain the four track local and express configuration. At Fulton St, the tracks would come up before the station and go down after the station.
Comments and thoughts. Thank you.
IND Tile Colors:
West St to Bedford Av: A different color at each station.
Bedford to Bway/Myrtle: Purple
Bway/Myrtle to Fulton St: Maroon
Fulton St to Kings Hwy: Blue
Switches:
line: Manhattan Bch and Ave.U
line: Kings Plaza
Between Kings Hwy and Ave.N
Eastern Pkwy: Both levels
Fulton St
Bway/Myrtle
S.4St
2Av
Between Varick St and West St
Highpoint of line: Express run between Eastern Pkwy and Kings Hwy
Lowpoint of line: Probably turns between Bway/Myrtle and S.4St
Cars: Slant R40, R30(overhauled, I miss them!!!)
Include transfers:
and
and ,
Both in Brooklyn. I'll continue tomorrow.
Hmmm....the tunnel from Owl's Head Park to Staten Island, with the SIRT still running the North Shore and South Beach branches, and a Travis station on the West Shore branch....
-Hank
Extend the Franklin Avenue line north under Franklin Avenue to connect with the Crosstown Line. Connect the Canarsie 14th Street Line with the Crosstown for both Brooklyn and Queens Connections. Connect the 14th Street line to the 8th Avenue Line Northbound and Southbound.
Service Patterns
P (Blue) Brighton-Franklin-Crosstown-14 Street-8 Avenue (north) Local from Brighton Beach to 168 street
I (Light Green) Crosstown-14th Street-8 Avenue-Fulton Local
Queens Plaza to Lefferts Blvd
L (Black) Extended South to WTC
Through
Mike,
How about a "round robin" beginning on the upper level of Jamaica Ctr-Parsons Blvd, running on the Queens line to either 6th Av or 8th Av, south to Broadway-Lafayette, across the unused connection to Essex St, along the Broadway-Brooklyn line to the lower level of Jamaica Ctr-Parsons Blvd. Route name your choice!
Bob Sklar
Transfers:
, and ,,, connecting Queens and Queensboro Plaza.
and ,, connecting Court Sq, Courthouse Sq, and 23St.
Extend to old terminus(Canarsie Piers, Beach Park).
Extend to Church Av, express in Brooklyn.
express between 96 and 137Sts.
Atlantic Av junction on the (Fulton and Pitkin Av Els).
Bring back Myrtle Av El.
Both tracks on Manhattan Bridge open.
West End Express: between Bay Pkwy and 9Av.
White Plains Express: between E.180 and E.238St
Broadway El Express: between Myrtle and Eastern Pkwy.
Jerome Express: or between 125St and Woodlawn.
Rename Franklin Shuttle and extend to Brighton Beach.
WCBS Newsradio-88 is reporting this morning that NYCT has "changed ends" and will now allow conductors to say "please."
Yes but will they finally allow conductors to tell you if a train is going express?
Or close the doors in your face when meeting express/local.
It seems that not only was the general public
screaming about the changes, but, also, It was feared that the vision-impaired wouldn't be able to tell what train
they were on. Would it be possible to set up a system that would allow the conductor of an incoming train to tap into the station's PA so that the train could be
announced as it entered the station?
Daily News:TA Switches Track, 'Please' Is
Back
I haven't ridden PATH from WTC in a few years, but I think they have some kind of hook-up from the train to the platform. Either that or there's one heck of a strange echo at work.
Chuck
It's not a hookup exactly... the cars have Public Address speakers on the outsides, so what the conductor is saying inside the cars is also heard outside.
-Dave
This is also true in Chicago. Seems like a really good idea.
(a quote from aforementioned NY article)
> "We're going to be providing
> uniform, precise, polite announcements that will give people the
> information they need — but not create an atmosphere where
> people are annoyed by unnecessary chatter."
(Sorry, I just gotta vent here for a sec)
As opposed to those awful new M4's down here in Philly?!?!?
"Spring Garden, for Delaware Avenue, the newsstand downstairs, a
bar on the corner, Hooters, Dave & Busters, Meiji-en, and a few other
things we'll add later. Doors will be closing sometime within the
next 5 hours, watch your step and have a nice, non-challenging day."
(chimes)
That damn thing's not a subway, it's the Disney Monorail on rails!
Ok, I'm done. :D
More like "Steel Force" at Dorney Park!
Please! No more announcements! Between the M4's and those annunciators on the Ikarus buses, I don't know which is worse! I think we need to go back to operators/conductors making announcements as needed. It would be nice...and the ops could still say "please", "thanks", etc and actually mean it.
Most of the annoucements on trains and buses are for compliance with the Americans with disabilities act. The visually impaired now have a way to tell where they are. However, I must admit the constant noise from these announcements is rather irritating. .
Totally understandable, but the continuous announcements on those M4's
becomes very irritating after a while. Maybe it's the in-between stop
announcements that are the worst. Door closings, station name, fine,
but to hear that voice every 5 seconds just seems to add hours to
the trip.
Caught an M3 this morning and opened the window on the front car as
we were rounding the 2nd Street -> Spring Garden tunnel curve. Now
*that's* good subway!
I understand the ADA implications but why can't the operators make the announcements? The el and subway are one thing, but bus operators can certainly take requests for announcements and make them as needed. Many of the so-called "stops" called out on my bus route are either low volume stops or are not stops at all. This is sometimes more confusing for those who can see...
From what people have been saying, I imagine this will not make me very popular, but I *like* the announcements, at least in comparison to operator-made annoucements. I would much prefer a clear, consistent voice, recorded by professional voice talent, than an unintelligible TO. Not that all TOs are untelligible, of course, but I have been on WMATA and NYCT trains where you couldn't understand a word and the screech of the voice was unbearable.
That never happens on the M4s. And I don't mind the repetitiveness if I know that it helps the disabled, and first-time riders. Plus, it's a fairly pleasant voice, IMHO.
I understand that they got a nice women with a real nice voice to record the announcements on the M-4's , She rode the first of the cars and reports say she was a knockout! True they are getting on many peoples's nerves but it's better than nothing!
Chuck Greene
It could be worse. At Walt Disney World, the monorail operators would actually say their names. At least they did back in the 70s; I haven't been there since 1980.
The only thing you can get from an operator or bus driver in Chicago is their badge number.
I can see why they wouldn't want the general public knowing their name. In this world of sickies, someone might look the name up in the phone book and harass the operator or driver.
At NJ Transit, there is a blue card up front that may have either the driver's name (first initial, last name) or their employee number. I guess it's up to the driver which one they want to display.
Perhaps I should clarify something: at Disney World, the monorail operator would give his or her first name only, kind of what a waitor or waitress will do in a restaurant. As I said, this was the case in 1973 and 1975; I don't know for sure if they still do that today.
Last time I was there, back in February with the family, the operator didn't even speak. The only thing we heard were automated announcements with bits of info, such as a brief breakdown of the system (routes, miliage, etc.), station announcements, and connection information.
Gentlemen,
While I can certainly understand your general frustration with announcements that may seem silly, let's remember that any announcement is better than none at all. Unless you have been living in a fantasy world, you would know that most conductors and bus drivers simply DO NOT make announcements!
I ride SEPTA daily, and believe you me when I tell you good and consistent announcements can only be an improvement. On Regional Rail, some conductors can't be bothered - and I have been on more than one R1 Airport train with families new to the area on a tourist trip. Trust me when I tell you that they get a VERY negative first impression of Philly when they are not even sure where to get off the train. And God help them if they get lost in the Broad Street Concourse with all their luggage at the wrong time of day when all they wanted to do was get to the Marriott!
On the Subways, Trolleys, El and buses I think it is imperative to announce stations, free connections and transfers requiring additional fares. This is what makes a system a truly integrated "system". We cannot assume that everyone on the train or bus - even a rush hour bus - is as saavy as people who generally visit this bulletin board. Even natives who seldom use SEPTA get a better impression and might be more apt to ride next time.
During the Flower Show there were several blue hairs on the El going out to 69th Street who weren't sure about the skip stop operation and whether they had to board a certain train. But when the new M4 pulled in and said "A Train making A Stops to 69th Street" they were visibly reassured.
We also can't forget the subliminal "advertising" that announcements of nearby points of interest provide. When someone thinks about visiting the Gallery one weekend they might remember that while riding to 15th Street to go to work they heard the announcement for the Gallery. Obviously this can be true of many different spots.
Finally, I don't want to bad mouth the drivers too much but they simply are VERY neglectful of making announcements. My favorite is still the infamous SEPTA disclaimer on public timetables that states that drivers will only make announcements in Center City. As if! Not only is it bad enough that they hardly make announcements, but to only make them in Center City is preposterous. As many of you know, this city has sites and destinations, let alone transit transfer opportunities, well outside Center City.
The final proof that announcements can only help is from the D.C. Metro. While waiting at National Airport to go downtown a Blue Line train pulled in and announced "Blue Line train to Addison Road by way of downtown Washington, D.C." Everybody on that platform knew they were on a world-class subway and that this train would take them downtown. Quite a contrast from the time I boarded a trolley at 15th Street westbound where the rollsign was misaligned and the operator was asked by EIGHT people which route trolley he was. He was surly about it, and didn't even bother to fix the rollsign after I told him it was misaligned. What a class act he was!
Comments?
When I ran streetcars in the early 1960's (Baltimore's streetcars quit on 3/3/63) we had to call transfer points, points of interest(Hospitals, Major gov't buildings, "historic sites) as well as know all the points for every line we worked, including all fare divisions. I can still call transfer points on the 8,15,19,22 and 44 lines after 35 years.
Woe to the operator who didn't "call 'em!
That was doing your job with pride. Transit wasn't just a job, it was a career.
I think that this was some Bean Counter's idea to speed service. It may have looked good on paper but Joe Hofmann came up throught he ranks and I'm quite sure on reflection, he saw the flaws in the plan.... Perhaps the massive outcry against the change also helped.
Incidently, on the LIRR, they never say please except when they ask you to take your garbage with you when you leave the train. Even the new Bi-Levels with their multitude of automated announcements, never say please....... Do you think that will speed service on the Montauk branch ?????
The 1800 series Red Line cars in Boston, which are similar to the R-110Bs, have automated announcements. Every few stations, there is a "No Smoking Please" thrown in. At the terminal, you're treated to "Thank you for riding the T!"
In New York they could have automated announcements that say things like:
"Due to an incident at 34th Street...."
or "This train is a local and there is no chance it will ever go express."
I can top that: "This train is running via the Montague St. tunnel and there is little, if any, chance it will ever run over the Manhattan Bridge."
One wonders what other lapses of judgement these "bean counters" have made which don't make the media but are actively detrimental to service? Here on the left coast some BART operators treat us to airline style "please look around for your personal belongings and thank you for choosing BART"--like there is a competing subway.
I still like that "thank you for choosing us" because 'our' major competition is the automobile. People do have a choice.
As for bean counters, I'll run one by you. The NYCT system is the largest in the world and operates 24/7. My night crew is larger than the day crew at some other shops. However, some bean counter thought it would be economical to close the storeroom over night. Guess where parts come from at night!!!!
You forgot to say, Duhhhh!!!!!
[Incidently, on the LIRR, they never say please except when they ask you to take your garbage with you when you leave the train.]
Not that I particularly like to defend the LIRR, but at least some conductors will announce "Thank you for riding the Long Island Rail Road" as trains approach Penn Station.
I heard that the new plan was to go back to saying:
"Watch the closing doors DAMN IT!!!"
Hi, Gang,
I know that the word "please" has been put back into the Conductors' lexicon, but...
What would have been your reaction if the "don't say 'please'" rule had been made public (as it was), but the explanation, instead of being something about Conductors losing a second or two by saying "please," had been something like this?
"We changed the rule because the word 'please,' in this context, implies that the words that follow, 'Stand clear of the closing doors,' constitute a request, when it really isn't. We want people to allow the doors to close, and we don't want them deciding whether or not to get out of the way."
Talk amongst yourselves...
That makes a lot of sense, since when the MTA announced that they were making the "no please" rule only a suggestion, they emphasized that the elimination of "please" applied to the "stand clear of the doors" announcement.
I agree with that logic, BTW. Look at no smoking signs. "No smoking please" used to be a common version of the sign, but most versions of the sign today do not include the "please" because smoking in a building open to the public is no longer the subject of a polite suggestion to refrain but a criminal offense punishable by fine.
During the Grand Central Station scene of this great movie, Popeye Doyle is playing 'tag' with Frog I . In the background you hear two buzzers and the conductor announce "Watch the closing doors!! Absolutely no please.
Actually, dropping the Please from "Please watch the closing doors! is not all that bad when you think about it. That same bean counter might have thought that the conductors could make announcements that were more "New York-like" if they replaced the word "Closing" with another (more common) adjective. Do you think New Yorkers would even bat an eyelash if the conductor said,
"Next stop, Penn Station. Watch the f&*(^%g doors!"
Just a thought!!!
New York isn't the only place where nobody says "Please".
The light rail system in San Jose, California doesn't "please" its
passengers either. Instead you have to listen to a rather dull sounding female voice saying "THE DOORS ARE CLOSING" at every stop, and if the operator has to recycle the doors due to some cluck getting in the way of them while closing, you get repeated announcements. (And there is PLENTY of grafitti on this system, too....)
[What would have been your reaction if the "don't say 'please'" rule had been made public (as it was), but the explanation, instead of being something about Conductors losing a second or two by saying "please," had been something like this?
"We changed the rule because the word 'please,' in this context, implies that the words that follow, 'Stand clear of the closing doors,' constitute a request, when it really isn't. We want people to allow the doors to close, and we don't want them deciding whether or not to get out of the way."]
Dunno. Sounds like semantic nitpicking to me. At least from my viewpoint, adding the "please" doesn't make the conductor's announcement sound like a follow-only-if-you-want-to request. It's still clearly an order, just one that's worded in a more polite manner. I'd say that almost everyone can grasp that distinction.
The correct phraseology is "Stand clear of the closing doors, please".
If you go by the bulletins, the word 'Please' was eliminated on March 1. Please note that it was not until March 29 that anyone had anything to say about it. This implies that no one noticed the lack of 'Please' for four weeks. Obviously, it wasn't that important to start with, was it?
As for civility in general, when I start finding members of the riding public who can say 'Thank you' after I reopen the doors to let them on, or help them to become unlost, maybe I'll start to be nicer, too. The usual greeting I get is 'A*****e', a flying cup of coffee, or in one extreme case this week, a moron in a suit who tried to urinate on me because he missed his train.
Just remember, courtesy works both ways.
[As for civility in general, when I start finding members of the riding public who can say 'Thank you' after I reopen the doors to let them on, or help them to become unlost, maybe I'll start to be nicer, too. The usual greeting I get is 'A*****e', a flying cup of coffee, or in one extreme case this week, a moron in a suit who tried to urinate on me because he missed his train.]
If you get another one of those extreme cases, try to stand between the irate rider and the third rail.
My own well-rehearsed announcements include: Station name, door opening side, available transfers then The train route and destination, "Stand clear of the doors, please" and once the doors close and the train is in motion, the next station.
The current station would be announced while the train was still in motion, as my position enters the station; the next station would be announced as my position enters the tunnel or clears the platform end.
In my own narrative form:
"This is Jay Street-Borough Hall, doors open on the right side, change here for the 'F' train across the platform......'A' Express to 207th Street Manhattan..Stand clear of the doors please.....Next stop is High Street/Cadman Plaza."
If the delivery is even and pleasant, the word 'please' could be extraneous. I don't hear every C/R using it.
Wayne
For those interested,
Here is the NYCT Blue Book instruction related to routine announcements:
[1. As the train is arriving, and before it stops in the station, identify the station, and announce any transfer options.]
[2. When the train is in the station, with the doors open, identify the train by giving the borough toward which it is bound, and then the trains letter or number.(If the train is already in the destination-borough, identify it by giving the terminal name.)
Announce the next station.]
[3. At the appropriate time, make the closing doors announcement.]
In my experince as long as you meet this minumum for your routine announcements, and do not delay service with excess in station announcements(your train operator will love you if you avoid this practice), it would be OK to announce any other helpful information.
Here is what the NYCT Blue Book says about ad-libbing:
[Simply put, the answer is, don't.]
[There's a reason for this. We have a great diversity in our work-force and among our customers, different persons with different backgrounds and with different ways of looking at things. With that kind of diversity, there ia a very fine line between clever and obnoxious, and between cute and offensive. We don't want to take a chance on offending anybody, and so we want to be cautious and conservitive.]
[So, whats the bottom line? Stay with the policy. It's carefully thought-out](except of course for the recent snafu)[and we have seen that it works. Use it and you can't go wrong.]
The film GLORIA, 1980 directed by John Cassevetes and staring his wife Gena Rollins has a great subway scene. Gena Rollins and the kid enter the subway in the South Bronx and ride downtown. The dialogue includes talking about transfering to the Express. There is a fight on the crowded subway and Gloria pulls a gun on some gangsters.
Also, the kid gets stuck on the train and Gena Rollins yells through the door for him to get of at 42nd street. You get to see the Times Square station.
There are also quite a few shots of and a few scenes that take place on NYC buses.
Also; there is a shot of the PATH train as they take it to Newark and at least one scene in the Newark train station.
Was there an awful lot of graffiti?
I remember getting separated from my mother and sister once at 42nd St. I usually went ahead of them after getting off our bus at Port Authority, and this time I made it onto an A train while they reached the platform just as the doors closed. My mother called out to me to go ahead; they'd catch up. I got off at 14th St. and waited for them. They arrived a few minutes later on an E. On another occasion, the same thing happened, only this time they didn't get off at 14th St. I waited for them as several trains came and went, then heard my sister yell from the uptown platform. They explained what happened, and we proceeded to the Canarsie line.
Name the transit system with wrong destination side signs and maps that are never correct.
New York, Chicago, Moscow, Paris, Madrid, St. Petersburg (Leningrad), and probably a whole lot more! (But at least Moscow and St. Petersburg are clean.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sf MUNI the LRV's with as many different destinations displayed on a single unit as there are signs--and all wrong.
A few month ago, a trolley on the Green Line was signed for A/Watertown, a branch that hasn't seen revenue service since the 70s. In fact, the tracks were torn up a number of years ago.
So I asked the operator, "Does this go to Watertown?" He said, "Huh? Where's Watertown?" I replied, "On your sign." He responded in all seriousness, "Then I guess we go there."
I nominate WMATA Metrorail.
Sidesigns wrong a lot of times. Rollsign situation so bad that the trains have had to carry a carboard or plastic color-dot inthe front windows since at least 1981 when I lived there....
The rollsigns went out early on. Breda cars never had them; Rohrs have been retrofitted with pixel-dot end signs like the Bredas. They are VERY small, and have only a very thin color band on the left side, and only describe the route. The big colored DOT sign in the window is for folks who can not see very well.
The least readable destination signs - HANDS DOWN - are those on the ends of our beloved R32s. Try reading one of THOSE without your glasses! Some of them I can't read even WITH my glasses.
Wayne
but the most entertaining was the slant with a GREEN tube halfway down the array bach when the F sign was a full fuscia field--the second best thing about R40's ==after A/C
That makes two of us - and I wear my spectacles whenever I'm awake.
I've often wondered why subway/transit maps, not just New York, but
other cities as well, don't show more detail, such as indicating
which lines, or portions of lines run underground, and which lines
run on the surface, or elevated, in which dotted lines would indicate
the underground routes, and solid lines would indicate the elevated or
surface routes. A map like that would really come in handy for "el"
buffs, like me, who visit a city for the first time, and want to know
which lines have elevated sections, and where there are good places
to photograph trains, as well as elevated structures and stations.
It would be nice, but we have to remember that doing this would add cost, and there's not any real benefit to the general riding public to do so (with the possible exception of where there are overlapping - not just intersecting - routes where one is above ground and the other below, as in part of Chicago's Loop). Be thankful the map is free in New York, unlike in some other transit systems.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think some of the older maps used to do this. My question is that, even though this would be a nice thing to have, what benefit would it give Joe Average if all he wants to know how to get between points A & B?
--Mark
BMT maps from the late 1920s through the 1930s (and the early post-merger BMT Division maps) had elevated and subway sections indicated by color--red was for the elevated sections, if memory serves. Thus, the Manhattan Bridge and Main Street (Flushing) were shown as elevated, the Sea Beach was shown as subway, and so on. One funny discrepancy on some maps was having the 'subway' portion of the Brighton line extend past the local stop below Newkirk Avenue.
And various maps through the 1950s had "elevated" lines (Third Avenue, Myrtle Avenue, Fulton Street, for example) shown as single lines, almost like pen or pencil lines, regardless of Division. But "subway"
routes operating on elevated structures were shown as 'subway'--and if there were joint subway-el service (as on Myrtle from Broadway to Metropolitan, or on White Plains Road to Freeman Street, for example), the single line would be superimposed on the Division color. (Thus, the yellow for the BMT or the blue for the IRT would have a black line down the middle.)
(I'm not going to get out the Crayolas to draw it in color; those diamonds and bullets from other people disturb my eyes enough.)
Someone interested in sightseeing might want to find one of the BMT maps or the later BoT/TA-era maps that still showed elevated sections and compare it with newer maps.
Ed Alfonsin
SUNY at Potsdam
You can find in bookstores a "book" called "Twelve Historical New York City Street and Transit Maps From 1860 to 1967" which might be of interest. It's published by H & M Productions in Flushing. The reprinted maps are from the John Landers collection and there is a commentary on each one by the collector.
Mr. Landers gives high praise to a Hagstrom map from 1936 which depicts the lines as Mr. Alfonsin describes in the previous message.
Regards,
PF
Tim,
You could always ask anyone here where the existing els are.
Here in Chicago, the overhead line and system maps on the trains and the hard-plastic system maps on station walls use a dashed line to show where the rapid transit lines are in subways and a solid line where they are not. The printed (free!) map of the system doesn't do this on the city-wide map, but it does on the enlarged inset showing downtown. No distinction is made between L and surface routing, however -- a solid line can mean L, surface, or even open cut.
Most people (99+%) would not care, though arguably it helps you find a line in some situations, like where there is an el and a subway in the same area...
But the problem is that too much detail actually makes a map _harder_ to read! Especially for the majority of map-readers, who are nowhere near as familiar with the system as us!
A colleague has a new calendar hanging in his cubicle, an anonymous friend must know he's a bus & subway nut.
Anyhow it's from Passanger Transit Div. of Westinghouse Air Brake Co. and has great photos of Amtrak & transit engines/cars .... so I want one, anyone know where I can obtain it ?
Mr t__:^)
I have one but it just showed up in the mail sorry cant help you
this month is NYC cars
Go to http://www.wabco-rail.com and you may be able to shake a calendar loose
Thurston,
I will get you one from WABCO since they are subcontractor to Breda on our new MARTA cars. I had one once and gave it away. I will get you one.
Many thanks to a dear friend in Atlanta, I now have a 1997 & 1999 edition of the WABCO calendars ;-)
The equip shown is from all over the US, inter & intra city and well a mass transit incl trolleys.
It's kind of a test also, since there are no captions to ID the train.
My bus buff friend here instantly identified all the trains on the '97, I'll have to get him to do it again s-l-o-w-e-r so I can write them in.
Mr t__:^)
Hello,
I am a gradute student at NYU's School of Journalism. I cover the subway for one of my print classes. I have two questions:
I was wondering whether anyone had any information on millenium plans for the NY subway? In London they are building an extension of the Jubilee Line. Is anything similar going on here?
Secondly, what are the big issues around the subway at the moment. Is it access to (or lack thereof) to JFK and LaGuardia?
I would appreciate any comments.
Completion of the 63rd St connection to the Queens Blvd Line is scheduled for around 2001.
The south side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge will be reopened about the same time (but then the north side tracks will close).
Johanna, indeed they are building the Jubilee line extension here in London. There is however some doubt if it will be open in time for the millenium.
It has been suggested that the London Underground will be shut for the actual millenium celebrations as staff levels and safety cannot be guarenteed.
Simon
"It has been suggested that the London Underground will be shut for the actual millenium celebrations as staff levels and safety cannot be guarenteed."
Let me get this straight: on the night of the largest New Year's celebration known to humankind, where surely millions of people will flood London to ring in the new millennium, there won't be any Underground service?!?!? How the bloody hell will all these people get home? Walk? (Or stagger, depending on how drunk they are?)
Re: "Safety cannot be guaranteed." I laugh every time someone talks seriously about airplanes, trains, elevators, or other modes of transport physically crashing (as opposed to their computers "crashing") because of the Y2K problem: "Planes are going to fall out of the sky!" As our techs here at work point out repeatedly, computer failure is NOT an uncommon experience, and any transport system designed so that failure of the computer endangers the safety of the passengers would not be built. If such a system existed, the designers and operators would have their asses sued off, because a computer failure unrelated to Y2K would already have occurred and (presumably) caused an accident.
Has nobody heard of pilots, manual override, or hydraulic brakes? There are MECHANICAL systems that prevent elevators from free-falling and stop trains when they exceed a certain speed or run a signal. And airplanes are kept in the sky by aerodynamics and petroleum-burning jet engines, not computers.
John B. "the sky is NOT falling!" Bredin, Esq.
You and I disagree on the use of cellular phones in the subway however, I agree with you on Y2K. Most of the Y2K hipe is just that, HIPE. Has it occurred to people that they drive automobiles and they have computers running all the vital systems like fuel injection and ABS brakes? Has anyone received a letter from GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Mazda, Honda, Lexus, Infinitity, Jeep and other manufacturers about a Y2K problem in their vehicles? THE ANSWER IS NO. NYCT will not shut down and remember that most of the equipment is relay based only. There will be no problem and this guaranteed. All the transit lines in the Times Square area are relay based and their are still plenty of mechanical interlocking machines in Manhattan. London will no have a problem also.
Y2K was a big scare by the greety computer people ready to rape the public's money. And then the new media stepped in. There are however some problems with computers going to turn-of-century (1900) with 00 and only this may need attention.
"Y2K was a big scare by the greety computer people ready to rape the public's money. And then the new media stepped in."
I don't think it's the computer people that are greedy or trying to unduly scare people. After all, if your computer is not Y2K compliant, it DOES need to be fixed or replaced even if elevators aren't going to fall, and that is no hype. No, the hype is from:
1) speculators trying to frighten the stock market into a crash so they can buy up shares at bargain-basement prices, which will then rise after 1/1/2000 when the scope of the problem is known to be not as bad as predicted.
2) sellers of "survival equipment" (what DOES a gas mask have to do with alleged mass computer failure?) and silver coins (which are alleged in the ads to hold their value after the economy collapses).
3) millenniarist ("the world is about to end!") preachers and cult leaders, in search of more sheep, oops, I mean followers.
4) various and sundry persons who hate "the system" for a myriad of reasons and who want to bring about societal collapse by causing a run on the banks that makes the Great Depression look like a picnic, thus collapsing the entire economy. (See my last paragraph below.)
As to the media, of course they spin the Y2K story as a disaster! Who ever got excited and tuned in or bought a newspaper when the story is "Minor inconvenience" or "Some businesses will lose money." No, the headline that sells papers and brings in viewers is "DISASTER!" and the bigger the better.
"There are however some problems with computers going to turn-of-century (1900) with 00 and only this may need attention."
Exactly. There will be some problems with computers, mainly at small and medium-size companies and organizations that don't have the resources to stay on top of Y2K. But your bank and financial records will NOT disappear on January 1, 2000, because the computers at banks, stockbrokers, and exchanges have been dealing with dates after 1/1/2000 for years, in the form of long-term mortgages and bonds. A bank computer that was going to crash over Y2K would have crashed nearly 30 years ago, or whenever since then that it was brought on-line, when it started to deal with 30-year mortgages issued after January 1, 1970 or 15-year mortgages issued after January 1, 1985.
However, if the doomsayers convince enough people that their bank account records will disappear, then large numbers of people will try to withdraw their money from the banks all at once and they WILL collapse! That is the scenario that scares me, because the most prudent way to prepare for it -- taking your own money out of the bank -- causes it! The only cure is EDUCATING the public as to what Y2K is and is not so they don't overreact.
(If everyone believes the world will come to end, they will withdraw lots of money and cause a panic).
You'll be pleased to know that the FED is busy printing lots and lots of money in case of excess demand, and yelling at banks to make sure there will be no inter-bank transaction problems as a result of Y2K. The wife is working very hard this year, as are all her co-workers and the bankers they regulate.
I intend to celebrate the milllenium by going to an ATM and withdrawing a $20.
Simon started this thread when he said that the London Underground might close down for the Millenium celebrations because staffing levels and safety couldn't be guaranteed. I didn't read that as making reference to a Y2K computer issue at all. Instead, I believe his point was that so many Underground workers might play hooky to participate in the celebrations that there might not be enough staff on duty to ensure customer safety. Possibly, he also may have meant that the Underground's management was concerned about unruly riders on the Millenium date.
I am sure that this is what he meant. A few years ago, several people were crushed to death during ordinary New Year's Eve 'celebrations' at Trafalgar square. If there were serious accidents on the Underground due to short staffing, just think of the negligence claims. LT were negligent for failing to ensure that there were sufficient policemen on the platform to stop passengers from dancing on the power rails...
Peter, to clarify matters I understand that LT are very concerned about the possible large numbers of people using it's services very late at night without being able to guarentee sufficient staffing levels to ensure crowd safety. This was reported in a London newspaper. No reference was made to bad behaviour of customers, although I expect the security aspect may have a bearing on any final decision which to my knowledge has not been made. Unless anyone else knows (Max, Rob, other UK subscribers)
Simon
Swindon UK
At least the Underground is being forthright about the fact that its employees might not bother to show up. I found out the hard way what its like to rely on a workforce with a strong union during a holiday.
I had a severely sprained ankle, and was in a cast, for Christmas 1987. But I was so dedicated to the transit system that I did not think to rent a car. We took three subways to a bus to visit relatives in Yonkers, a taxi to a subway to the LIRR to go to Long Island, then the LIRR to Atlantic Terminal late on Christmas day.
As we waited for the B67 bus, we were both exhausted from carrying packages, had to go to the bathroom, and sick with a cold. We waited for 90 minutes before a bus showed up. The bus driver told us most drivers didn't bother to show up. The bus got to 9th Street, and the driver got off an walked away -- another driver was supposed to be there, but wasn't. We waited another 60 minutes. We would have walked, but I had packages and was on crutches, and was feeling so bad I could barely stay awake.
We yielded to the superior power of the TWU, started renting cars, and eventually bought one. No more off peak revenues for the TA from us! So you'd have to be a fool to rely on transit during the Millenium celebration. The MTA should be as honest about that as the Underground.
Let's hope the Feds don't crank out too much currency. The last thing we need is hyperinflation.
Anyone care to speculate when the Manhattan Bridge will fall down and go boom? Not that it has anything to do with Y2K readiness (we're not allowed to use the C word at work).
(Has no one heard of pilots, manual override, etc)
Reminds me of what our computer guy said when City Planning's internet connection was down, and I couldn't so some research. I asked him what I should do. He said I should do whatever I did before 1997, but I forgot what that was.
I don't know how they count it in England but in New York, the 2nd Millennium (that's with two N's) does not end for another year, that is, December 31st 2000. So, it seems, that New York has plenty of time to plan something.
It use to be that the subways were free after midnight on New Year's eve. And that wasn't just every thousand years either. Maybe for one night only when the 3rd Millennium begins, conductors could be allowed to use the word PLEASE.
It would be nice if the subways (NYCT) were free on New Years Eve, since so many people use them each year at that time. Yes, technically the new millenium and new century don't begin until 2001. But lets face it, the bigger celebration will be this year.-Nick
I think that the MTA should consider running "Millenium Trains". These trains could be specially painted, maybe gold, and decorated with millenium-appropriate art.
The first "Millenium Train" should leave, appropriately, from 42nd Street!
Perhapse they could hire some now unemployed grafitti artists to decorate.
I guess I too am a bit confused about which celebration we're planning. The big one, in my mind, is in 2004 - the centennial (100 year) celebration of the NYC subway. Yes, this should be a wonderful event, and hopefully the MTA will plan a terrific celebration (oh ye of optimism). (I participated in the 90th, on the invited run for the press, over the 42nd Street Shuttle on the Lo-V.)
Now, which "millenial" plans are we talking about? If it's the Y2K bug, I agree with earlier posts that it's not going to be a big deal, except for the publicity-induced panic. Sure, a few glitches here and there, but life as we know it will go on.
As far as the new millenium is concerend, in fact the true beginning of the new millenium is indeed 1 January 2001. But the press and public are wound up in the "odomerter change" that will occur on 1 January 2000.
My opinion? We SubTalkers should be encouraging #1 above. Y2K and odometer flips? Let The Post have fun with them.
Let there be no mistake - I'm going to be in the city on Oct. 27, 2004 one way or another. That date will fall on Wednesday. There's bound to be some sort of commemorative item available in some shape or form.
Hopefully, Gibbs 3352 can be fixed up in time for its hundredth birthday. I wonder if any verification exists as to whether or not it ran on Day One.
I hope to be there as well, save me a place on City Hall station.
Simon
Swindon UK
The issue no journalist has picked up on is the deterioration of the Manhattan Bridge, and the long run threat it poses to the subway service, and economic viability, of a large swath of Brooklyn. They keep pouring money in, but it keeps right on cracking and rusting. Meanwhile, subway service has been drastically curtailed since 1982. A further loss of capacity would be devastating. Brooklyn enters the next century dependent on a deteriorating 100 year old bridge.
This has been discussed extensively here before. If you want a rehash, E-mail me directly.
I haven't read the postings in awhile so maybe someone has already mentioned one or both of these:
"Somebody Up There Likes Me" -the Rocky Graziano Story w/Paul Newman (late 40's or early 50's?). Early in the movie the Graziano character (Paul Newman)is still a teenage hoodlum. He is with his Buddies on the Chambers St. platform and a train of AB's pulls in, stops, doors open and they get on. I think you can even hear the compressors.
(This scene made a big impression on me since when I was very young I rode mostly the R1's-9's; "E" and "F" trains were the routes of my childhood. We moved out to Long Island (Suffolk) when I was seven. I became interested in the subways around 12 or thirteen and that's when I saw this movie - it was the first time I'd ever seen AB's (that I remembered). When I saw this movie I thought they were the coolest looking cars. I was a poor deprived suburban kid. A couple of years later ('65-'66) I did get to ride and photograph them on the Canarsie Line with a city friend and also take an early fantrip (Oct.65) on 2390-91-92.
Yes, that one of his punk friends was played by a very young Steve McQueen.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. When I saw the BMT standards for the first time on the Canarsie, I thought they were the most godawful-looking cars I'd ever seen. The R-32s and their blue doors spoiled me back then; what else can I say?